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@@5131641 <p> The use of salicylic acid ( ASA ) reduces the risk of developing Barrett 's esophagus , which is considered as the main factor affecting the occurrence of esophageal cancer . A study describing the dependence of the ASA use and the development of the Barrett 's esophagus was published in Clinical Gastroenterology and Hepatology , the official journal of the American Gastroenterological Association . <p> Salicylic acid is a widespread pharmaceutical agent , used in the symptomatic treatment of infections and antithrombotic prevention . The universality of its application arises from the fact that in large doses it works as analgesic and has anti-inflammatory and antipyretic mechanism , and with long-term use it works as an anticoagulant . Salicylates occur naturally in many species of willow , but in different concentrations . There have been reports of attempts to grow new species of willow , which will have higher contents of salicylates in its bark . Salicylic glycosides located in the bark of willow have similar properties of salicylic acid and have a buffer compounds , which have no side effects on the digestive system . The advantages of successful growing of willow species and abstraction of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , it is easy to maintain and control posts of willow , which has similar content and quality of the material . Salix purpurea , which has a particularly high content of salicylates , occurs widely in Poland . It is possible to conduct breeding of this species , after accurate molecular studies of the association of different willow genotypes with salicylates in its bark . What 's more , the genotypes are evaluated in terms of usefulness in the pharmaceutical industry . <p> Study conducted by scientists at the Massachusetts General Hospital Institute for Technology Assessment ( USA ) published in Clinical Gastroenterology and Hepatology , the official journal of the American Gastroenterological Association , are surprising . The results of the tests after correlations analysis suggest that high doses of salicylic acid were significantly associated with a reduction in the risk of developing Barrett 's esophagus . Nevertheless , the researchers state that they do not recommend taking ASA , especially in high doses for prevention of Barrett 's esophagus only . If further testing confirmed the observed relationship , then a person with a high risk of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at the same time , could consider taking ASA in high dose . <p> To draw the above conclusions , the team of scientists analysed data of 434 patients with Barrett 's esophagus , in regard to the factors affecting the occurrence of disease . Individuals using salicylic acid had at about 44% less risk of developing Barrett 's esophagus . Moreover , men were three times more likely to have this disease . Due to increasingly higher frequency of cases of esophageal cancer in the past few decades , a lot of attention is given to the identification of the risk factors , including a careful evaluation of the etiology and pathophysiology of the Barrett 's esophagus . Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medications , especially salicylic acid were associated in the past with a reduced risk of esophageal cancer . However , the studies of scientist from Massachusetts linked the ASA chemoprevention with Barrett 's

@@5131741 <p> So on the Sun/MySQL theme , what are the implications ? Huge , to me , absolutely huge , on so many fronts . The positive is that both Yahoo ! and Microsoft are big companies that like to innovate . <p> From the point of view of a PHP developer , it 's particularly interesting . Microsoft has internally changed its view of Open Source a great deal over the last few years . In the PHP world we 've seen this on a number of fronts , including the partnership with Zend to make PHP run well on Windows , the various Web Developer summits at Redmond ( due to Sanjoy Sarkar , a common fixture at PHP events , and all around nice guy Brian Goldfarb , who was the first MS employee to come to a PHP conference , back in 2002 I think ) . This last week my friend Wez Furlong ( of PDO fame ) was at Redmond with , as he put it , a " bunch of compiler geeks " , speaking at the 2008 Lang.NET Symposium . <p> Yahoo ! is of course the home of a lot @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , in particular Rasmus Lerdorf , " the father of PHP " , and Sara Golemon . ( Andrei Zmievski left last year to join Outspark . ) One assumes that the architectures within Yahoo ! would continue to be LAMP based , at least in part because the cost to switch would be amazing . <p> These things come in bursts : I remember Sleepycat/InnoDB/etc in 2006 . Now we just have to wait and see who is next . <h> One Comment <h> Felix : <p> I 've been trying to understand the " PHP as an interpreter or as an add on module " but it 's like i just do n't understand what it means and the more i try to find out , the more i lose track of what i knew before . Could anyone please explain this clearly , in simple understandable english . Pleeeeaaaaase . Understandable

@@5131841 <h> Pages <h> Monday , November 5 , 2012 <h> Whether or Not To Follow the Nutrition Guide When Doing P90X <p> I 'm getting ready to start up a new round of P90X along with the Come Back Kids Challenge group ( see this post ) . The start date is Monday Nov. 12 and I 'm starting to get psyched about it . I 've already got the workouts scheduled in my calendar on TeamBeachBody.com . <p> Next , I need to think about diet and my potential shopping list . The first question is whether I will follow the P90X nutrition guide or stick to my usual clean eating plan . I 'm leaning toward following the P90X nutrition plan . Although there are some pros and cons . <p> The Cons Following the P90X plan means eating more calories than I 've become accustomed to the last few months . I know they say you need the extra calories because of the intense workouts but , I 've continued to workout pretty intensely since my last round of P90X . I 'm concerned that more calories could mean weight gain . Since I 'm within @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to lose ground . <p> The P90X plan includes a fair amount of dairy . I 've been mostly off dairy the last few months . I do still eat Greek yogurt but , that 's about it for dairy in my diet . I 'm not sure I want to add it back in . I 've read so much about controversy over diary that even though I do n't have a bad reaction to it , it seemed better to keep it to a minimum . <p> I 've been really into cutting processed foods out of my diet . Going with the P90X nutrition plan actually means eating more processed foods than I have been the last few months . <p> The Pros It 's nice to be on a plan that I do n't have to think about . I do n't care for the recipes in the nutrition guide . Not that they do n't result in tasty food just that they all seem to use a lot of ingredients which makes them seem more complicated than I like ( the recipes at Seriously Simple @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I find sustainable ) . All those ingredients also add up to an expensive and inefficient grocery list . So , I always use the portion approach . Search this blog for " sample menu " and you 'll see examples of what to eat in each of the three phases . Once I settle into the routine of the meals for each phase it 's just a matter of keeping the kitchen stocked with the foods I need . <p> It will be fun to see how the program goes when I 'm following it 100% with the workouts and the nutrition . I 've done this before but , it 's been a while . I 'd be interested to see what if any difference it makes in my results this time around . <p> I actually enjoy the phase one menu I 've put together . I like the veggie patties at breakfast , the protein milk shakes and have kind of been missing cheese . <p> The Conclusion I 'm going to go ahead and follow the P90X nutrition plan . I 'll use the portion @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to put together that shopping list ! As the program goes on I 'll keep an eye on the scale . It usually takes a while for me to start losing weight but , I have NEVER gained weight doing P90X . So , if the number on the scale goes up then I 'm going to scale back on my calories . The obvious way to cut calories , if it comes to that , will be to cut out the dairy since I 'm not that psyched to add it back in anyway . Since this is a temporary change to my diet I 'm not going to worry too much about it . In 90 days when I 'm done with the program I can go back to my usual clean eating plan . <p> Regardless of whether you decide to follow one of the plans in the nutrition guide or you just want to clean up the diet you 're already eating , the key is to pick a solid plan and stick with it . In general you want to keep sugar , baked goods @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to a minimum . Eat plenty of vegetables , whole grains , fruit , healthy fats and lean proteins . Know your caloric needs and do n't exceed them . Last but not least , drink plenty of water . <p> If you 're doing P90X for the first time then I highly recommend following the nutrition guide . It 's definitely worth the effort . You

@@5131941 <h> Search Torrent Freak <p> RIANZ , New Zealand 's answer to the RIAA , have withdrawn their case against an individual they said should have been punished under the country 's " 3 strikes " anti-filesharing regime . The decision follows a procedure beset by problems , including delivery of erroneous infringement notices and a claim for financial punishments that was not only unsupported by the law , but appears to have been reached via guesswork on the part of rightsholders . <p> The Copyright ( Infringing File Sharing ) Amendment Act was implemented in New Zealand last year . Its aim is to reduce illicit file-sharing by sending out warnings and ultimately punishing copyright infringers . <p> RIANZ , the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand , sent out just 2,766 notices between October 2011 and April 2012 . Earlier this month it was revealed that eight individuals would face the country 's Copyright Tribunal and the possibility of fines after receiving their third strike . <p> All eight individuals were targeted by RIANZ , the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand . Seven of the accused asked the Copyright Tribunal to consider their cases on paper-based @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ appear before the Tribunal in person . However , despite signaling their intention to defend , that is no longer required . <p> According to information provided by Tech Liberty , the Internet rights group that has been supporting the individual , RIANZ have dropped their case without explanation . The background does however provide some clues . <p> The alleged infringer , a student in shared accommodation , was the person with responsibility for paying the flat 's Internet account and as such her name was on the bill . She insists she has carried out no file-sharing and does n't even know how -- Tech Liberty say they had to explain to her how it all works . <p> The first step on the strikes ladder is when an alleged infringer receives a warning notice from their ISP saying they have been detected file-sharing . That notice , the student insists , never arrived . <p> The second notice did . This was shown to the student 's flatmates who all protested innocence . The flat 's wireless network was checked for security . <p> Then a third @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wrong person . Eventually the ISP ( Telecom ) withdrew the notice and re-issued it with the correct name . This was followed up by a Ministry of Justice letter informing the student of RIANZ 's claim against her . <p> The recording group asked for just over NZ $370 ( US $303 ) to cover the costs of the notices and copyright tribunal hearing , plus NZ $1,250 ( US $1,024 ) as a deterrent . However , eyebrows were certainly raised when it came to their claim for the music involved in the case . <p> The infringements were alleged to have taken place on five tracks with the cost of each measured against their value in the iTunes store , a total of NZ $11.95 ( US $9.79 ) . This sounds reasonable enough , but RIANZ were actually claiming for $1075.50 ( US $880.96 ) . <p> " RIANZ decided , based on some self-serving research , that each track had probably been downloaded 90 times and therefore the cost should be multiplied by 90 , " says Tech Liberty co-founder Thomas Beagle . " There @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for this claim . " <p> When monitoring peer-to-peer networks it is indeed possible for anti-piracy companies to connect an alleged infringement with an IP address . However , it is not possible for them to accurately measure how many other file-sharers an alleged infringer has directly shared material with , over and above their single distribution to the monitoring anti-piracy company . <p> In addition , other problems remained . Regulations require that the second and third notices specify which notices they carry on from -- they did n't . Furthermore , the error-corrected third notice had additional problems . <p> " The corrected third and final enforcement notice was sent for an infringement that happened within the 28 day stand down period after the warning notice , which means it was not a valid enforcement notice , " Beagle explains . <p> With these issues in mind , the student -- with Tech Liberty 's help -- decided to attend the Copyright Tribunal in person to fight the accusations . But just after she was informed that RIANZ had withdrawn their claim and her case had been closed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their withdrawal but given the outline of the case -- and the fact that they had an adversary willing to fight -- one might come to the conclusion that they were not prepared to take risks with their very first contested case . <p> Their lack of transparency will do little to quieten critics of the scheme ,

@@5132041 <h> Monday , September 10 , 2012 <h> Bigfoot Academic , Dr. Jeff Meldrum Interviewed by a Chicken <p> Not only is this one of the most interesting approaches to interviewing in Bigfoot history , but it is truly an informative interview . The Chicken of Truth is able to get best out of Dr. Jeff Meldrum . We got the heads up from Damian Bravo , member of Team Tazer Bigfoot , lthe video would be up this morning . Below is how the Chicken of Truth was able to snag the exclusive interview followed by the interview . <p> Yes you heard it right my hairless primate friends my grandpa Dr. Meldrum and I Cot the chicken had a nice early morning conversation about all kinds of stuff . The good doctor explains and talks about the DNA studies and other subjects . <p> Yes and exclusive from the greatest chicken bigfoot researcher in the Bigfoot world , well besides my human grandpa Dr. meldrum with all his science stuff , I had fun talking to him , COT HAS SPOKEN ! BUAWWWWWK ! <p> In fact , Chicken of Truth first appeared on the video channel @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 30 seconds introducing the Chicken of Truth ( COT ) ninja training program when he was a mere graduate . <h> 8 comments : <p> Dr. Meldrum was cool before , but now he is the man , what a show of humility and humbleness to do this interview , he sounds like he was having so much fun and its hilarious but at the same time very informative on the Doctors part in the Sykes DNA study and also his different opions on human are primates and the conerversation about baby bigfoot prints , very interesting stuff . Also great questions by the handsome Cot a chicken to recon with , wish much success Cot . <p> Good interviewer very professional . His name should be Cot Brokaw , or Cottie Chung . Dr.Meldrum makes a good point when he mentions further research will be needed if they do turn up unknown specie . The DNA wo n't be the end all proof that some think . It will be very important in establishing credibility to the cause which inturn may inspire big time funding to the scientist and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as Guy when he talked about just how close their DNA may be to ours because , yes , we too are apes . As far as baby Saquatch prints I think there are many reasons have been authenticated . Some believe that the Mothers carry the young like Gorilla mothers , some believe baby Saquatchs are tree dwellers , and some just overlooked like Dr.Meldrum says . I know if I was near a lake or river or even a hiking trail I would find a size 11 foot print that odd . <p> Anons at 4:47 and 5:10 you guys need to get a sense of humor , I can tell you two are those serious researchers that do not contribute anythng to the Bigfoot community . Yet Dr. Meldrum seems to have sense of humor , you can tell the character of a person by the way they are able to laugh at themselvs. here is a link of a interesting article about having a sense of humor and how good it is for your sanity , since both of you need some help in that department @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ humor quickly . http : **35;278;TOOLONG ... <h> Shared on Facebook <h> Subscribe To BfRLC <h> About Bigfoot Lunch Club <p> Bigfoot Lunch Club was launched in 2007 to provide the latest Bigfoot news , Bigfoot pictures , Bigfoot videos and overall pulse on Bigfoot in pop culture . In an effort to explore the mysteries of our world and provide insights into ourselves , Bigfoot Lunch Club will leave no stone unturned in our pursuit of the truth concerning Bigfoot . We believe in truly open minds that are not afraid to question both the assumptions of science and the dogma of fanatics . Most importantly , we believe in a world bigger than the sum of our present knowledge that still holds mystery , wonder , and a place for a creature called Bigfoot . <h> About Guy Edwards <p> Guy Edwards lives in Portland , Oregon . He has been searching for Bigfoot ever since he saw Bigfoot staring back at him from the inside cover of a book . His own unique approach to Bigfoot ( Sasquatch ) is to champion three major disciplines ; paleo-anthropology @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Lunch Club as a resource for himself to collect Bigfoot news and information from around the web . To Guy 's delight other Bigfooters found the site useful too , Bigfoot Lunch Club became a hit and continues to become the most trusted source for

@@5132141 <h> " Aliens Staring Us In The Face " <p> Now let 's backtrack a second here . This is the Astronomer Royal we are talking about . The word Royal gives us a clue as to exactly what kind of people he himself regularly finds staring him in the face . Is this the

@@5132241 <h> What A Product Manager Needs To Know About Analytics <p> Every product manager knows that analytics is all the rage in almost every company now . The CEO has been reading those magazine articles that say now that databases have grown large enough to hold virtually every piece of product data that the company collects and servers have become cheap enough to throw at any number crunching problem . However , what seems to have been forgotten in the current " analytics madness " is that when it comes to your product , if you do n't know what you are looking for , then you wo n't know what to do with what you get ... <h> Just Exactly What Are Analytics ? <p> Sure , we 've all heard about analytics -- stories about how companies have used analytics to save money on their products , get to market faster , etc. are all the rage right now . However , push aside all of the hype and just exactly what is analytics ? <p> If we had to come up with a definition that would cover as many of the situations in which analytics will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's going to have to be fairly broad . I like to define analytics as consisting of the technologies , applications , people , and processes that allow a firm to transform their product data into actionable insights . <p> Product managers need to realize that the real benefit of this wave of interest in analytics is for the company to be able to perform real-time data analysis . The company is going to have to be able to do this even as they struggle with more and more data feeds that are becoming more and more complex . <p> As the product manager , you are going to have to be willing to lead several new initiatives in the area of analytics . The characteristics and capabilities of these new initiatives will include : <p> Dealing with real-time data sources <p> Merging multiple data sources <p> Creating predictions -- not just reports <p> Supporting the entire company with information about your product , not just a few users <p> Automating the analytics process <h> What Are The Key Trends Happening In Analytics ? <p> As product manager you will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be spending time on it or will it vanish overnight ? The good / bad news is that it appears as though analytics are here to stay . The business benefits are too powerful for this trend to just fade away . <p> Companies that are becoming interested in analytics are doing so for one of three main reasons . The first is the traditional reason that they view analytics as allowing them to achieve performance improvements . Other firms are investigating implementing analytics because they see it as a way to both identify and implement ways to cut product costs . Finally , as competition between firms once again starts to heat up , firms are seeing analytics as a way for them to improve their customer service and boost product sales . <p> Analytics and business intelligence has been around for a number of years . What makes this wave of interest appear to have legs is that it 's getting support from upstairs . A recent report stated that at 23% of the firms that were interviewed , the CEO was the driving force behind the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ For You ? <p> No matter how you look at it , product managers have got to be involved in the roll out of the new generation of analytics within their company in the support of their products . In order to do this successfully , product managers are going to have to make sure that they fully understand just exactly what analytics are . <p> In a nutshell , analytics allow a company to transform their product data into actionable insights . This means that real-time data sources are going to have to be leveraged and multiple data sources are going to have to be consulted . In implementing and using an analytics solution , product managers are going to have to manage hardware , software , services , processes , and people . <p> Is this effort really going to be worth it ? The answer appears to be yes . The people who get paid to peer into the future are telling us that the area of analytics is set to explode over the next few years . Knowing this , product managers need to take steps @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Talking About Next Time <p> The one thing that every product manager wants more than anything else in this world is for our product to be a success -- this should almost be a part of the product development definition . We are willing to work very hard to make this happen . However , maybe we 've got it all wrong -- it 's not what we do that will make our product a success , but rather what our customers do . Let 's take a look and see how we can let

@@5132341 <p> More than 160,000 customers serviced by United Illuminating are without power as of Tuesday morning , however a company executive said there are hundreds of crews , linemen and other staff now in full fledged restoration mode . <p> " We have more resources on the ground yesterday than we did during the peak of ( Tropical Storm ) Irene , " said Tony Marone , UI senior vice president , during a press conference on Tuesday . <p> UI , which services a swath of towns centered around New Haven , has over 300 line workers and tree crews on staff today as well as another 400 to 500 office support staff behind the scenes . <p> In Orange , 74 percent of the town and 4,574 customers are without power as of 10:30 a.m . <p> Marone said the company is following a plan of keeping workers safe first , as well as working with towns and public works departments on the downed tree issues . <p> He said the company made the right decision to take offline critical substations in the Bridgeport area , an effor that Marone labeled " heroic " on part of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> " Because of that we averted what could have been a potentially catastrophic event or the potential for outages to extend into weeks , " he said . " The water , at least in Bridgeport , was within a few inches of reaching some of those critical components . " <p> Now UI has begun the process of re-energizing the substations , meaning power is not yet back on for the customers but

@@5132441 <h> North Face Denali Jackets a couple of bottles of booze <p> It seems the poor harried wife could no longer tolerate her snoring spouse . A long-distance call to the presiding judge , a couple of bottles of booze , and an overnighted book resulted in a front-page spread with pictures . The judge felt this book could save the marriage . <p> Eventually , the trio were spoken of in hushed tones as ' Lot women 's denali hoodie large , Stok , and Barol ' , the most successful team of Hall informants . Barol was also known as a pedophile , unfortunately North Face Down Jackets Mens . He took his pleasure with his ' daughter ' as soon as her courses started , initiating her into the adult world at barely ten Turns of age north face jackets cheap . <p> We are proud to offer this fine line of amazing western wear outfits for men and women north face slippers . Our western clothing is made of the highest quality and finest materials north face denali grey women 's . Whether you want to dress like a modern day country and western star @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the old west , we have the clothing and accessories that you need . <p> In the long shot north face pink ribbon , the camera is places below the subject . I think that this ads camera technique to this shot because it makes the man whose jumping off the building seem like he islarger than life which is true because to mostly any human , jumping off a building would be large than life north face denali hoodie men . This type of shot also emphasizes the power and importance of the subject who is jumping off the building . <p> You will also notice that the WM7 WM7-A 's used the same rear water jacket cover as the MK20-25 but the " mount holes " , were never machined out totally as they were not needed due to the simpler Wizard cowlings , I might add which were actually better as the powerhead was much easier to service . Also the front four holes on the crancase were there but not threaded due to also not needed the front cowl mounts . Once you actually get into @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ differences , but basically the Wizards were the Ford the Mercurys were the MERCURY , or a Mustang a Cougar ! ! ! ! ! , just a Step apart as these cars were , sort of " Kissing Cousins " is how I describe them . <p> " I am not looking for a raincoat . When traveling in areas where I could be out walking in the rain for extended periods of time I will either bring a Marmot Traveler Precip jacket with REI Ultralight Rainpants ( if I be hiking ) , or a Rohan Globetrotter Mac " which clearly are two of the best rain garments available . Beyond that , I don think that I have actually seen a 3/4 length softshell garment , as desirable as that might be , particularly in a dark gray to black , styled to serve as an all weather coat North Face Denali Jackets , sized either to cover a

@@5132541 <p> This epitomizes what makes New York , New York . We " know " we are the center of the universe , but we have a sense of humor about it . This is the waiting area of the NYC Mayor 's Office of Long-Term Planning &; Sustainability across from City Hall , with clocks for time in each of the 5 boroughs . <p> I was in the office meeting with senior policy advisors regarding an Untapped Special Report on

@@5132641 <p> The bile triggered by news of my departure ( last day November 12 ) brought back old memories of rancorous accusations of anti-American bias . At the beginning of the GM Death Watch , I had to delete several hundred obscene , hate-filled comments and ban dozens of persistent posters of TTAC Must Die TOO comments . Now , after the fact of Chrysler 's and GM 's bankruptcy , there 's a revisionist theme arising . " Anyone " could have predicted Detroit 's dissolution ( many did long before TTAC , of course ) . And , believe it or not , yeah , wellA everything 's OK now . New GM is kicking ass . Leaving aside that delusion , I wonder : when was the last moment GM could have turned things around ? I reckon it was the day that Bob Lutz and Rick Wagoner decided to spend GM money refreshing their GMTA SUVs . IF GM had spent that cash improving their passenger cars AND cutting brands ( they could have afforded to do so at the time ) AND then got rid of Lutz and Wagoner for an outsider like Mulally @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ told Stuart Varney , if my grandmother had wheels I 'd be a trolley car . Still , what 's your take ? When was the last time old GM could have turned it around ? <h> 108 Comments on " Ask the Best and Brightest : When Could GM Have Turned It Around ? ... " <p> mid 90s , when it was time to replace the J body cars . I think GM at that point said , screw cars , we are just going to sell SUVs in the US . Made them a ton of money for a while too , but it allowed them to stagnate their car development and push it off to the overseas subs . Those got delayed and when the SUV boom crashed 10 years later , GM had two cars it could sell in the US ( Malibu and CTS ) . <p> My bet would be the lack of refinement and evolution of the cavalier endless run ... it started to kill GM that a generation of first buyer saw they 've been screwed ... i would also add @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ supplier ( i had to change twice a wiper motor on my saturn , like after 100 years of building cars they should get that right eh ? ) Die GM , it 's Darwin law ... <p> Mid 80 ? s , and the Roger Smith era . Smith wasted billions and billions on acquisitions outside the auto industry , that at the end only ate of the resources . The GM10-Project was an absurd display of wasted opportunities . In my mind , if Smith had put those resources in r &d; instead of spending , GM would n't be where it is now . To my mind , the last time GM really had a chance , but blew it once and for all . <p> Believing that the failure or success of a company resides on a few events is what caused GM to fail . <p> You had a long series of editorial about the corporate culture of the company and the slow decay that destroyed the company from within . Issues like that result in failure , because the culture existed where they thought @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . <p> In reality tens of thousands of minute little decisions caused the failure of the company . Things from how thick the cylinder liners were on a Quad-4 or the amount of laminated glass on a GMT . It 's fun to poke at significant product launches since they 're convenient -- but you 've got to dig deeper . <p> It started in the 80 ? s when they looked down their noses at the imports . The last hope was the middle 90 ? s but Honda and Toyota already had a piece of the pie and were not giving it up . " Hey , lets build tarted up trucks that mimick luxury cars ! " That worked for a while . Now there is no furniture left to burn . Or transmission companies , locomotive divisions , heavy equipment , etc ... <p> If Toyota and Chevy set out to design a $20,000 car , Toyota says , " Ok , first take $2500 off the top for wages and benefits . GM says , " Ok , first take $5,000 off the top for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ around a $2,500 cost disadvantage -- it 's just impossible . <p> The only way GM was ever going to turn things around , was by getting its cost structures in line with its competitors . <p> As I write this I am almost 30 years old . The J-body Chevy Cavalier went into production shortly before I was born . When we were in university my best friend bought a J-body Cavalier brand new as his first car . Eventually we both graduated , got jobs and still the J-body Cavalier was in production . If GM truly had the will to succeed they would have replaced the J-body at least a couple of years before I got my drivers licence . Instead the company continued excreting Cavaliers onto their dwindling customer base . <p> In all this time GM was still the biggest and most powerful automaker in the world . They had all the resources they needed not just to survive but to kick ass . They could have chosen to do the difficult things that are necessary to succeed at any time , instead they chose @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ workers on the production lines and the engineers who do the real work of car making day in and day out who will lose their jobs . But I have no sympathy for the executives and managers , the " leaders " who could n't lead their way out of a paper bag . They 've truly earned their failure and I can not begin to feel sorry for the loss of GM when GM could n't be bothered to save itself . <p> Sigh , I 'm beginning to feel old . <p> The shorter , more direct answer : GM could have turned itself around anytime before about 2002 . After that the damaging effects of the cheap crack of sales incentives and 0% financing combined with the cost and long lead times of new car platform development probably sealed their fate . <p> I think they gave up the last chance they had it get it straight when they brought Lutz in . <p> His Big personality and obsession for ( now dead ) niche products like the Solstice/XLR/GTO and others was a giant distraction that cost @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mainstream products . <p> Between him pontificating years ago about " dead brands walking " ( Pontiac ) and then waisting the time on the G8 -- Calling Global warming a " Crock " then dumping money into the Volt and then the Gang kicking Jerry York off the board for stating the obivious ( eliminate brands ) , those guys were riding the Luzt jetfighter to elimination . <p> The GMT thing did n't help but Toyata and Nissan were reading the same bad tea leaves too . <p> GM really went down the toilet when , one day , the Powers that Be started taking their customers for granted . It started about 1980 . Before that , GM made a decent car for the money . What happened was the Japanese made better cars for the money . Instead of raising the ante with a better product to respond to eroding market share , GM intentionally made their cars cheaper so they could make more profit per unit . <p> GM evolved very quickly into an incestuous organisation that was only concerned with the people working within @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wages and bonuses of the top brass had first priority and the guys on the line also were only concerned with their bottom line . Any attempt by the GM management to improve quality or change anything on the line met with instant hostility from UAW members . A good example is how the UAW went ape sh*t when GM tried to introduce the " Quality Circle " in the 1980s . <p> While this inward focus continued , GM still believed their own lies , " If we build it , they will buy it . " Problem was people did by GM cars only to see them fall apart and self desrtuct . Instead of responding with better cars , GM blamed everybody else and they are still doing it with their absurd " perception gap " bamboozle . <p> GM will not succeed . Our money has been wasted . The same people who busted the company in the first place are still in charge . They are still blaming their customers for their failure . GM is an organisation that must die . It should have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ failure is no longer punished . It is rewarded . <p> When Ollie Johnson wrote his damning memo in the late 80s . Had GM upper mgt or the BOD taken it seriously , some moderate housecleaning could have been done and GM would not be where it is today . Once that memo was ignored and Johnson left , I think that the handwriting was on the wall . <p> It would n't be too late to turn around GM right now , if there was a solid management team that could deliver a viable plan , and if there was enough cash . But the management team is n't there to deliver the plan , and it 's hard to get private sector cash when the team is n't very good . <p> The beginning of the end dates back to the 1950 ? s , when GM overextended its brands . Before the war , the brands had been comprised of a couple of models each , with several body styles among them . After the war , that morphed into a sprawl of numerous nameplates and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of GM 's decision to avoid pursuing total market share in excess of 50% . Combined , those decisions would ultimately make badge engineering inevitable , given how the lineups were crowding together , which in turn would feed the bloat that kept the company from responding to new competition as it emerged during the 60 ? s and 70 ? s . <p> Too many products led to dilution , but the organization was too arrogant to see the threat . A brave manager would have made the decision early on to either curtail the brands or merge them together . A really brave one would have spun some of them out entirely . Neither happened , of course . <p> The end became almost inevitable when Jack Smith decided to focus on trucks and SUV 's , to the detriment of the car business . That turned GM into a niche player that would be highly vulnerable to any dramatic changes in demand for trucks , and sure enough , that change in the market is exactly what put the nail in the coffin . Funny how he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when he was ultimately responsible for creating the foundations for the destruction of the company . <p> GM puts about 20 hours of labor in a car , that 's $1400 if you allow the $70/hour figure . TOyota puts 21 hours of labor in a car , that 's $700-900 . The difference in wage cost per car is on the order of $700-$500 . That is hardly a crippling deficit . <p> And GM could have easily made up for that deficit with the value of domestic preference . When Toyota and Honda first started in to the US market , domestic preference was worth a lot to GM . They lost that edge when it became obvious that Toyota and Honda were building better cars . <p> In fact , there 's still a hard core of buyers who absolutely will not consider a " foreign " car and if it was n't for them , GM would be out of business . <p> Mid 80 ? ? s , and the Roger Smith era . Smith wasted billions and billions on acquisitions outside the auto industry @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . The GM10-Project was an absurd display of wasted opportunities . In my mind , if Smith had put those resources in r &d; instead of spending , GM wouldn ? ? t be where it is now . To my mind , the last time GM really had a chance , but blew it once and for all . <p> + 100 on that ... <p> But I 'd disagree that this was the last hurrah . Remember the ' 90s , when the Big Three was raking it on SUVs ? Instead of reinvesting that money into product , they sqaundered it buying up other companies ( or in Chrysler 's case , it was the other way around ; Daimler raided its war chest after the " merger of equals " ) . <p> Three more blown opportunities that could have made their current predicament a lot less serious : the 2002 Chevy Malibu , 2003 Saturn Ion , and 2005 Chevy Cobalt . Think how much better positioned the whole company would have been for the current downturn if they had n't ruined these basically solid @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the storm out if it 'd had a decent entry level product six years ago . <p> Perhaps it was n't the last hurrah , but to my mind , it was the last time GM had the opportunity to stay on top as the worlds largest automaker . If they had done things right then , they could have been equal or better/larger than Toyota . <p> Smith spent and lost something like 40 billion dollars in equity altogether , money that could have been better spent . Of course , there are other , later " last hurrahs " , but they would only make GM continue as a second tier . <p> And for Daimler ransacking Chrysler 's war chest . I 'm sure Daimler must have lost something in the league of 50 billion dollars on the Chrysler experience , so any resources they raided could only have been a tip in the hat . <p> Thirty years ago , when I was still in my 20s , I was thrilled to be hired for a pretty good management-track job at GM headquarters , the company @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ an experience ... I could tell they were rotting from within even then . With few exceptions , the people with whom I worked were unhappy complainers who were waiting to retire and who bragged about how much they were paid and how little they did . Whenever I busted my ass on an assignment , one of the lifers was generally appointed to ask me to slow down . It was like they ALL were UAW members . <p> By then , the cars were already starting to turn to shit . My first company car was a downsized ' 79 A-body , one of the cars with the lightweight Turbo Hydra-Matic that was always in the garage . They admitted to me that it was a huge problem , but said they could n't afford to fix them . They just gave me a new car , of course . <p> I left after two years to join an upstart import company that today is among the most successful in the industry . My GM colleagues ridiculed me and my boss told me I was making the mistake @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> The downsized B- and C-bodies were then still relatively new and relatively trouble-free ( if you do n't count the diesels ) , but they remained in production 15 years . The 1981 J-bodies were an unmitigated disaster , and the 1982 A-bodies were little better ; all versions of these two cars all looked the same . The new 1988 GM-10 cars were to have been the new family sedans -- too bad they could only build coupes for the first few years . <p> By turning out such horrendous sleds from the late 70s to the mid-90s , GM alienated the largest generation of car buyers the country had ever seen and ever will see . The baby boomers and their kids are gone to the imports forever . <p> If I had to identify GM 's last clear chance to pull up , it was probably when they paid Ross Perot billions for a company they had no business buying , then billions more to make him leave because they did n't want to hear the truth . Had any of the Pet Rock directors understood @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ kept Perot . But I have my doubts about whether even he could have changed such a stagnant , political , back-scratching culture . <p> The sooner we all accept that GM is dead and our money gone , the sooner we can move on . <p> I am apparently in the minority , but I still think there is something salvageable at GM . They have thousands of highly skilled manufacturing people at all levels and some of the best auto engineers on earth . What will make it a lost cause is if they continue to let the accountants run the business and do not get rid of the entire tier of top " management " who got them into this fix . <p> No leader worth a crap would allow the product he uses to be hand selected , then hand rebuilt , if he is representing a mass-market product . All of the current management have done so knowingly for their entire tenure and for this reason alone they should be gone . <p> Having said it 's salvageable , I 'm guessing its 100-1 against @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . The culture of rotten management is so inbred they " did not see this coming " when the event had been choreographed since the mid-70 ? s . At that time , they ceded the small car business to the Japanese and it was cheaper to lobby for concessions in safety and fuel economy standards than to simply build the safest and most fuel efficient cars on the planet . <p> I 'll say around 2002-2004 . The wind-down of Oldsmobile was in full swing and GM had a chance to realign all its brand with some high quality products . <p> Instead , over that period they released a warmed-over Grand Prix and Lacrosse , the Cobalt , the Aveo , the Ion , the H2 , the SSR , the " not-quite-there " 6th gen Malibu , and absolutely horrible minivans across Pontiac , Chevrolet , Saturn , and Buick . <p> After Sept. 11th , 2001 GM aggressively marketed 60 month 0% financing with a program called " Keep America Rolling " . Next up was Employee pricing . Finally it 's been an endless stream @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ selling the deal and product be damned for the most part.Buyers that demanded quality and longevity moved away from GM . Whatever chance GM had it was way before the endless discount programs . <p> I do n't think GM could have turned it around at anytime given its internal power structure . Ross Perot tried to and look what happened : too many others in some position of power $$ to vote against him . GM 's bonus system for exec 's ( 90% still there ) and cost cutting for product is still there . Ford had Bill Ford as the one in power that came to the conclusion that Ford co. needed to get outside help , thus bringing in Mulally . If at some time GM tried that , yeah then they would had a chance , but not likely as stated previously and honestly Whtitcare + Pres Task Force + UAW , etc. ca n't do it either . <p> The first thing we do is kill all the lawyers . -- Shakespeare , Henry VI . <p> Shakespeare was wrong . Killing lawyers would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out there . <p> The beginning of the end came when the Detroit automakers made accountants decision makers . They do n't understand the car business , never did , still do n't . Their nature and training leads them to apply logic to a business that wholly relies on emotion . <p> In the 1970s , about 25 years after the original Oldsmobile Rocket V8 engine appeared , General Motors adopted a corporate policy of mixing and matching engines among car lines . Many Oldsmobile owners were surprised and outraged to find Chevrolet V8s under their hoods . Even though the Chevy engine was a newer , more sophisticated design , Olds owners were so soundly convinced of the Rocket 's superiority they took GM to court for misrepresenting its product . The matter was eventually resolved , but it was a demonstration of the power of mystique . The accountants did n't see the handwriting on the wall . And where is the Oldsmobile brand now ? And GM . In the dumper , that 's where ! <p> The domestic automakers probably could have turned it around @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 50-percent of the market by building good automobiles people wanted to buy at a profit and treating customers fairly and with respect . They did n't , still are n't , and will fail because their time is up . <p> ( this is a rhetorical question . the answer is , " Never " , in both cases . As with the FSU , GM was Hopeless . Their arrogance in refusing to accept any criticism for their ton of huge errors , errors that brought their market share steadily downhill , from 50++% a few decades ago to less than 20% now , and expected to be 10% a few years ( the " new " much smaller GM ) , was monumental . <p> At that time the European countries were putting in place partly government run health care systems and GM said something to the effect -- we do n't need anything like that we can take care of our workers . <p> This showed tremendous arrogance and a total lack of care about the American people ( their customers remember ) and it frightened union @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ came up for renewal . <p> Perhaps when they removed the little " Body by Fisher " plates with their cute little coaches from the door sill kick plates ... definitely when they were too embarassed to keep the statement " Mark of Excellence " below the GM corporate logo ... <p> The electric car ad from ' 69 is amazing , and one 's heart ca n't help but sink when one reads the names of all the good and great divisions ( and brand equity ) squandered and divested since that time ... <p> Made me realize that the old saying : " it takes a generation to build a company , another to benefit from it , and the 3rd to destroy it " , is a scalable truism ... <p> Godspeed Robert and thank you for a great site that I read nearly everyday-please keep us informed of your next escapade , I 'll be happy to tag along . <p> The generations-old ' rot ' inside of GM as JSF22 points out , is a cultural issue and as such , I believe that at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have turned it around by hiring a bunch of talented go-getters from other companies ' doing it right ' such as Honda , Toyota , BMW or whomever you think was doing it right at the time . However , GM 's unwillingness to hire from outside , their near-insistence that anyone in a position of power come from within the ranks is what I feel was or is , at the root of the rot . As a GM lifer friend of mine says " Stu ... we do n't make cars at GM , we make careers " ... That 's scary stuff if you spend 90% of your day on career posturing and 10% of your day on actual work-Yikes ! ! The GM board is the biggest culprit of their failures ; they could have made massive changes at the top to the senior management and thus to the culture at any time over the last 30+ years . The second biggest mistake at GM over the last 30+ years was when the BoD gave accounting more decision-making power than engineering had . This happened right @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Engineering never again determined the parameters of a program-accounting did with disastrous results . While not fully back from the brink yet , I believe that from what I see and hear coming out of the Tech Center that GM has cleaned out a lot of the old deadwood and is making strides in the right direction . They 're not there yet , some of the old ways of thinking do permeate , but from my experiences dealing with GM staff on a regular basis , it is a vastly different attitude today from just five years ago . I think they are on the right track , but again , I would like to see some fresh faces from Hyundai , Honda , BMW etc ... I think they just need a little more new blood and a BoD that gives a damn and they 'll be much better off in five more years than you might imagine if only they will institute a culture that rewards results . <p> GM 's biggest and longest lasting problem has been its culture and I do n't see any @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ &; LaNeve still in place and all their underlings waiting in the wings is a surefire recipe for failure . I do n't know how far back you 'd have to go to have changed the culture as it is self perpetuating . If you wanted to succeed at GM you had to buy into the culture . John DeLorean and Ross Perot would be two examples of what happens when you do n't . <p> Truly and sadly GM does n't have a clue how to compete today and they do n't have the luxury of time to figure it out and move forward . <p> I really do n't think any one point was a last chance to turn it around because the overriding culture would not allow that to happen despite any individual decisions that may have been made contrary to what they were . <p> GM is a doomed entity which the government will allow to continue until GM is so small it wo n't have anywhere near the impact . Then they will be gone as we know them . <p> After the current management @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Of course , doing the same and expecting different results is the definition of an exercise in futility if not insanity . <p> GM for as long as I can remember was so big the right hand never knew what the left hand was doing which produced disaster after disaster . The reason for it of course is the corporate culture , either buy in or be left out . <p> It was the 80 ? s when GM made huge errors of omission and commission that put it on the path to doom . But I doubt that any CEO could have changed course because there were so many well-off and powerful stakeholders threatened by any change from the status quo . <p> JSF22 , I 'd love to hear more stories from your experience at GM headquarters . For example , do you know if anyone at HQ ever seriously dealt with the question , " Why is the Cavalier so crappy compared with a Corolla or Accord ? " <p> Accountants are often blamed for poor product , but can anyone cite some specific examples when engineers @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the use of Dexcool , or the notorious " rope " driveshaft or the Citation 's awful brakes ? GM claims thousands of terrific engineers -- what is the evidence of that ? <p> I remember when GM introduced Dexcool , I went to a Buick new car intro for salespeople for the 96 model year and the entire meeting was about Dexcool . I thought to myself at the time , you 've got to be kidding me , an entire new car intro show and nothing is mentioned about the cars only Dexcool ? ? ? Then a few years later Dexcool turns into another GM disaster . <p> Just another small example of GM think vs. the real world . Can you imagine the reaction of a potential customer if all you talked about was Dexcool ? They would think you were smoking Dexcool . <p> Let 's take a slightly different approach and say 2005 . IIRC this was the tipping point when GM 's non-US sales matched or slightly exceeded its US sales for the first time . Also the first year when the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ offset the losses in North America . At that point , Rick Wagoner should have run the numbers and walled off the GMNA sinkhole from the rest of the corporation , cleaved off the bits of GMNA worth saving ( Corvette , the full-size pickups and SUVs , the LS program , and the Cadillac badge but not the vehicles ) , carried out an in-house divorce to let the rest of GMNA collapse on its own , and enjoyed the tax write-off . <p> GM 's downfall is their employees belief that we are to big to fail and I can remember back in 1991 when our regional Chevrolet district manager said that had not JACK Smith taken the helm from Stemple that they would have been insolvent and bankrupt in 12 months . <p> If you are old enough to remember the 1989 Grand Prix and the 1999 Chevy Lumina were available in 2 door only because according to my sources they did not have the money for tooling up the 4 doors . <p> This was just after ROGER Smith had sunk millions into Geo and we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mind having a Geo Storm for the night to trash around some curves . <p> Then came Saturn ! <p> Millions spent and I do n't believe that to this day that Saturn ever made any money for GM . <p> Then they started selling companies they had purchased over the years to conceal their losses . Check it out on wikipedia and see the companies thy have sold since the early nineties , millions maybe billions squandered . <p> Add Hummer , Saab , Delphi , and you must see a trend of failure . <p> Christ , how can you let a Saab customer open the hood of their car and see an efen " GM " logo on cap of the windshield washer fluid container and think that that would exude confidence in the brand . Ca mon . Thats just arrogance and stupid . These guys in GM management have been efen the dog for years and riding the gravy train provided by shedding assets for cash and the penchant of the American publics belief that GM 's a good company . <p> Well in fact @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ laudable and great cars and trucks and still does . It the efen management that has lead them to where they are . Laneve , fool . Stemple , fool . Roger Smith , fool . Do n't get me started on Rick . These guys have taken a great company and , like a officer of GMAC said to me many years ago , when they bury him they are going to have to screw him the ground . <p> I 'm am very sorry to inform all of you that General Motors is a dead man walking , soon to fall over and be buried by the sands of time . <p> They could have turned around in the early ' 70s when Toyota and Datsun sales started to take off . They could have had Deming in much sooner ( and they could have actually followed his advice for more than a year ) . <p> Their downfall was their lack of near-death experience that both Ford and Chrysler had in the early ' 80s . Coming so close to being killed off led Ford and Chrysler @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the 80s and 90s ( before Daimler raped Chrysler , and before Nasser screwed Ford with his little buying spree and the Firestone debacle . ) <p> Think of the innovative things Chrysler did pre-1998 . The minivans , cab forward , they styling of the early ' 90s Ram that every pickup maker eventually copied , the Cherokee . And Ford had some hits too -- the initial Taurus , the Probe , the Explorer , the Navigator ( which ushered in the luxury SUV market , BEFORE the Escalade ) . <p> Whenever General Motors DID try to do something innovative in this time period it was horribly executed and turned into a disaster . The GM-10 debacle , the dustbuster minivans , the Aztek . As bad off as Chrysler is today , and for as close to death as Ford came in the middle of this decade , both companies have real bright spots in their last thirty years . You ca n't say the same for GM* . It 's just either failure , mediocrity , or piggy-backing off the success of the other two @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it 's initial launch had quality problems . But because of the styling , people largely ignored this and gave it a chance . But I 'm at a loss to think of any other really big , category-busting successes along the lines of the Taurus and Chrysler minivans . <p> That 's very true , GM has had not one mainstream hit vehicle that I can think of in the last 50 years . Fifty years ago their success was based on many brands and models but not one of them a huge hit that I can remember . <p> As I think about it perhaps the long downward slide started with the advent of badge engineering which caused all of the different versions to lose sales to the point we are at today . Too many divisions , too many badge engineered models and not enough resources or market share to support them . <p> Yet after all of this they still insist on badge engineering . They are truly clueless . <p> I think it was right after WWII . USA wanted Japan to be capitalist not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we allowed them to insulate and incubate their industries . <p> GM ignored . <p> It was n't just GM that died . ( I think its dead man walking now ) <p> How many areas of manufacturing were destroyed in USA because of cheap asian imports ? <p> The real question is why GM was able to stick around so long ? Why did those lenders let them build up so much debt ? Do n't they understand what they were lending to ? I Think they should have been bankrupt long ago . <p> It was a mistake to create a separate Saturn Brand when GM could n't afford to feed all the babies it already had . I always found it ironic how much the initial Saturn SL series looked like the Olds Cutlass Supreme of the day . The Oldsmobile brand could have been transitioned to the Saturn experience and Saturn could have been the base model . In the alternative , the SL-SC Saturns could have replaced the already old Cavalier . <p> Hummer -- Not a good idea . <p> Also , instead of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ GM could have supported it and would have saved billions of dollars if it would have passed . <p> BDB : I would consider the late model Corvettes , Silverados and Suburbans to be the full-fledged successes of GM . Of those three only two of these models have made GM the billions needed to keep their ship afloat for so long . <p> JSF22 : You have a story that definitely would open some eyes here . <p> As for when GM entered a point of no return spiral ... 1986 . By this point GM was more concerned about paying off their critics than re-examining their organizational failures . <p> After that point it 's been one self-defeating compromise after another . <p> They could have turned around in the early ? ? 70s when Toyota and Datsun sales started to take off . They could have had Deming in much sooner ( and they could have actually followed his advice for more than a year ) . <p> We have the winning answer right there . <p> From that moment onwards , Detroit practised a " look @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know now as the " Perception Gap " . <p> When they launched and then betrayed Saturn . After a lot of the boneheaded mistakes they made , but they could have made Saturn work . Instead they brand engineered it to hell as the other managers conspired to kill anything that might be decent about it . <p> My dad had an old 1960s GMC van for his business ( funny , for his personal cars he was a Ford guy , but anyway ) and aside from the floorboard completely rusting through and being able to see the tires while driving it was , I guess , OK . ( I was real young , did n't know any better . ) <p> He traded it in on a new GMC Vandura , which just a few years later , began to magically transform into rust . In time it was literally more rust than steel . The thing was , every Chevy and GMC van I saw was rusting in the very same area , around the windshield , and for the next 20 years GM did @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ How hard ( or costly ) is it to drill some drain holes ? <p> I think this van is a metaphor for the company . GM is rusting away and , despite the corrosion being quite visible , no one bothers to change a thing or alter the business plan . Whitacre could completely clean house and bring in a bunch of Toyota execs and they might not be able to do a thing . I do n't know exactly when GM started to rust away but this company is toast . <p> My folks were talking about getting a new car and I suggested that they get a Cadillac CTS since the government was bailing out GM ... might as well help GM pay back the loan , right ? Nope . They went and got another Lexus . <p> Accountants are often blamed for poor product , but can anyone cite some specific examples when engineers were overruled by Finance ? Did accountants compel , say , the use of Dexcool , or the notorious ? ? rope ? driveshaft or the Citation ? ? s awful @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what is the evidence of that ? <p> The problem that you face is the once the Accounting people have power , it 's very hard to fight them . Silly statement you say ? Well , any accountant can show you where you can save money in the short term . This is important particularly when times are hard . So , they can always look good by saving you money . You , on the other hand are arguing to spend more for something that you ca n't PROVE matters . You learn to avoid these battles , or your boss does . He wo n't take the expensive option to the meeting , or he 'll take it , but only as a straw man for the cheaper option . <p> Then the habit spreads to the rest of the culture . Bring the cheap option to the table . Do n't fight for quality or you 'll be a whiner and banished . <p> The company will start a quality push , but go to a meeting and it 'll be too expensive to do it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ well cheaper " people prosper . Except you ca n't do it just as well . However the money saver will have been promoted before the failures start . You , the whiner , will still be in your old job . So , are you going to fight another battle , or are you going to become a cost-saver ? <p> You do n't think that anybody noticed how ugly the Aztek was ? But it made it to production , did n't it . <p> " Their downfall was their lack of near-death experience that both Ford and Chrysler had in the early ? ? 80s . Coming so close to being killed off led Ford and Chrysler to have a lot of innovative and well-recieved products in the 80s and 90s ( before Daimler raped Chrysler , and before Nasser screwed Ford with his little buying spree and the Firestone debacle . ) " <p> Agreed . Chrysler got too fat and happy in the late 80 ? s and went thru another downturn ( with everyone else ) in the early 90 ? s . But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they acquired AMC . They were not afraid to hire people from outside the company and industry . They looked at Honda and decided they had a better way to develop cars . And so they copied it and adapted it to their needs . Chrysler in the 90 ? s was showing Ford and GM how it was done . <p> But GM ? Slow decline . If you chart the market share from 1980 to today it just goes inexorably downward . <p> Ford and Chrysler had periods of ascendency . GM never did . At best it slowed it 's rate of decline . It never stopped it . GM was bad . How bad was GM ? GM was so bad that it took an ex-GM exec by the name of Bob Eaton to sell out Chrysler to Dumbler . In away not only did GM f#$k themselves but they f#$ked Chrysler too . You got ta be really bad to FUBAR *TWO* companies ! <p> GM missed the boat by answering the Pinto with the Vega and then the Chevette . They did n't aim @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> By 1972 , they already believed they were " too big to fail " . <p> I actually thought the X-cars were pretty impressive at the time , and their legacy lives on in today 's GM products . But they were unrefined compared to the imports , and their unreliability eventually killed the GM brand . <p> They lost their lead one customer at a time . <p> Saturn looked promising until it got absorbed back into GM ; that was a watershed moment . <p> As for dealing firmly with the unions : Well , that goes for all of Detroit . <p> The end for me , was when GM killed the EV1 . At that point in time , GM was at the pointy end of the field with EV technology , and then they just threw it away . Imagine where the EV1 would be now ! Let 's do SUVs they said . There 's no future in ev 's they said . That 's what happens when bean counters run a car company . A truely great tragedy for the american automotive @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's not for nothing that all of the big3 has pretty much gone down the drain in lockstep . Back when GM were actually creating valuable IP , they should have split the company into separate pieces , leaving finance , design , engineering and marketing free to contract for manufacturing and other back office functions wherever they wanted . Flexibility rules , even though it might leave smaller fiefdoms for management to rule over . When you 're as big as the Big3 , the only winning strategy is one allowing you maximum freedom to play political arbitrage , as size and profits draw leeches like an open wound . <p> # 1 Putting a sleeveless alloy engine in the Vega. with a real engine ( + a other better quality choices ) GM could have sold small cars early enough to maybe fight off the imports . <p> # 2 why did they create an entirely new division in Saturn only to copy Oldsmobile styling , then wait FOREVER for an up date , &; then close Oldsmobile . If the SL1 was just the new Forenza and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ program , craploads of cash could have been saved . <p> There is nothing GM could have done with Saturn that it could n't have done with NUMMI , GEO or Opel for billions of dollars less . <p> No . " X " marks the spot where GM could have turned it around . GM spent millions on developing these cars , the largest automotive capital investment IIRC for a company up to that time . <p> And yes , they were one of GM 's big successes . The Citation alone sold over 800,000 units that first extended model year . These cars were roomy , quiet , economical , luxurious in the Buick and Olds versions and at the time the answer for a lot of people downsizing , economizing and sticker shocked into something outside thei comfort zone . <p> They were also slapped together at such a rate they earned an early reputation for poor workmanship and the 10 recalls a record held until the 2000 Ford Focusdid n't help their rep any . Think just how many pissed off people GM had on their @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and customer well , the X was enough to turn off an entire generation of customers for GM cars , for good . <p> And in the face of this disaster GM 's president I think it was Roger Smith by that timewas refusing to call this a disaster . I am paraphrasing but the comment went to the effect that a successful car is whether it sells or not . We sold a lot of X cars . <p> Yes , and because of that , Toyota , Honda and Nissan 's sales continued to increase ..... <p> That GM is dying from a thousand paper-cuts is fairly obvious . That they decided to ignore the lessons of Deming &; NUMMI and damned the careers of those who did n't ignore them is pretty large on that list . <p> As to when their last real opportunity to change things ... Late 80 ? s early 90 ? s when they were last at their death bed and failed to do what was necessary to change the culture of the organization . The profits of the mid-late 90 ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ decay after the recession in ' 01 . <p> " What people couldn ? ? t predict , though , was the perfect storm of 2008 : the collapse of the capital markets , the collapse of the real estate market , and $4.00 gas . " -- -- <p> All of those were predicted , and lots of people predicted it . Ignoring all of the blogs that were predicting this/following this at the time ( CalculatedRiskBlog , HousingBubbleBlog , Patrick.net ) and even semi-mainstream media ( The Economist ) , it 's very evident by the action of the markets during that period that quite a few people saw this coming ( insider memos ) . <p> Inverted-yield curve , insider selling , run-up in gold price , flight to commodities ( driving up oil ) , it was all predicted . I sold all of my equities , as well as my house , in 2007 . Apparently GM , unlike Ford , did n't have their ear to the ground . <p> Saturn -- I 've heard a former GM'er say that it was an admission @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ needed a complete re-do , but they did not need another division . If they wanted to bring in import intenders to GM dealers , GEO worked OK for that . Saturn brought in import intenders but then left them with nothing to move up to . Those buyers moved on to Honda , Toyota , etc . <p> Actually , it was GM 's lingering perception of " import " buyers vs. the rest of the market that was the problem . Buyers do n't segment themselves that way . There are car buyers , period . <p> GM-10 was a debacle , the look alike , downsized , badge engineered cars of the 80 ? s were a disaster , no question . <p> Roger Smith 's emphasis on technology ( robots rule ! ) over product . <p> I 'm an accountant by trade but I agree that accountants should not make product decisions . I have seen GM cars that look like someone made a deliberate decision to cheap the car out . Ooh , let 's save $ 500 on this interior . Never mind @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ $ 1500-2000 in incentives to get the damn thing off the lot . <p> To answer Robert 's question of when was the last time GM could have turned it around , I agree that the early part of this decade was the last time . Profits from trucks and SUV 's were still strong . <p> This was when GM could have financed new , competitive CARS . What if the current Malibu had been introduced when the last gen Malibu had been introduced ? <p> The truth is , other than the Corvette ( and not so much these days ) , there has never really been a GM product that I would consider purchasing ( maybe some of the recent Cadillacs ) . They 've never been on my radar screen ( although I liked some of the last Oldsmobile models , I 'm not sure if I would have bought one ) . The Saturn was impressive for GM , but the imports were still better . 98% of the models I have driven between 1980 and now were junk . <p> But as others have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Just the other day , I saw one of Chrysler 's cab-forward cars ( an Eagle ? ) from the 90s , and I thought " Wow , Daimler really screwed up " . But even in the 00s , Chrysler had attractive products ( Pacifica , Spitfire ) . <p> GM ? There is absolutely nothing I would want . <p> I worked a GM auto show around 1989 . I got to drive all of the cars to-and-fro from the lot . The only car I liked was the Cadillac Allante : it was the only GM car that was as nice as my 1984 Mazda 626 . <p> GM could have turned it around when they looked at two year old Chevy Vegas that were rusting to death . And those Vegas were being driven in locations where drivers salt french fries , and not driveways . And those same Vegas were parked next to two-year-old Corollas and B210s that were n't rusting to death . <p> That 's when GM could have turned it around . But no , instead , they gave us the Chevette @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ chose Rick Wagoner was the last possible moment to avoid the mess the company is now in . <p> Everything went downhill from there . While not a complete financial picture , consider this . <p> General Motors averaged a piddling profit of $1.5 billion each year from 2001 thru 2005 amounting to less than 1% of gross sales . And that 's if the figures are accurate , as GM had to restate earnings for the prior 5 years after a Securities and Exchange Commission investigation in 2001 . <p> GM missed the boat by answering the Pinto with the Vega and then the Chevette . They didn ? ? t aim high enough by trying to learn from the Japanese . <p> Depends on what they were supposed to " learn " from the Japanese . If the time period in question here was the 1970 ? s , and you refer to leading-edge products and tech , then there was nothing to learn -- Toyota , Mazda and Datsun compacts were RWD compacts with beam axles in back , and big , rough four-bangers , just like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ really the only one doing something truly game-changing back then with FWD . <p> What Japanese cars did better with was quality and execution . In that sense , yes , GM ( and all its domestic competitors ) missed the mark big-time . <p> Flash forward to the 1980 ? s , and while Ford and Chrysler were enjoying success with FWD compacts , GM stuck with the RWD Chevette , which was a MASSIVE mistake . <p> ? ? What people couldn ? ? t predict , though , was the perfect storm of 2008 : the collapse of the capital markets , the collapse of the real estate market , and $4.00 gas. ? ? ? ? ? <p> All of those were predicted , and lots of people predicted it . Ignoring all of the blogs that were predicting this/following this at the time ( CalculatedRiskBlog , HousingBubbleBlog , Patrick.net ) and even semi-mainstream media ( The Economist ) , it ? ? s very evident by the action of the markets during that period that quite a few people saw this coming ( insider memos @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that there would be a downturn , but most economists did n't see the wholesale disaster that happened . I worked in the homebuilding industry , which was the first one to really collapse , and they certainly did n't see this coming at all . <p> I think that 's a case of minority making predictions that make them look smart now , but were far from certain back then . Ford was one of the minority . <p> In essence , any economic prediction is an educated guess , a bet . Some people bet right ; most others bet wrong . GM was in the latter group . <p> @BDB and mtymsi : I ? ? m at a loss to think of any really big , category-busting successes along the lines of the Taurus and Chrysler minivans ? GM has had not one mainstream hit vehicle that I can think of in the last 50 years . <p> I would argue the new-for- ' 77 B-body , particularly the Caprice/Impala , was such a car for them . It revolutionized the packaging and space-efficiency standards of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , designed , styled , executed , and built rather well . It could be had as a bare-bones el strippo or a fully-loaded deluxemobile without leaving the Chevrolet brand ( which begs the question of why they insisted on futzing with badge-engineered variants for Olds , Buick and Pontiac which were in most respects not as good , but I digress ) . It was well liked , well rated , and immediately popular ; it really seemed to hit a sweet spot . <p> After its introduction there were some substantial stumbles ? ? underspecced transmissions and that abysmal dieselized engine come to mind ? ? A and it was greatly cheapened in build and materials quality with the 1980 facelift , but it remained a very popular car right up through 1990 ( a fourteen-year run ! ) after which it was replaced by the bloated upside-down bathtub . <p> @mattstairs : I have seen GM cars that look like someone made a deliberate decision to cheap the car out <p> This actually happened in a meeting to discuss headlight bulb options for a new headlamp ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one of GM 's major headlamp suppliers ? ? he tells me he gets very similar idiocy on a regular basis from Ford and Chrysler , too ) : <p> Headlamp guy : For a headlamp such as you have in mind , giving what you want in terms of beam performance , your best pick is going to be such-and-such a bulb . <p> GM guy : What size wire would we feed it with ? <p> Headlamp guy : We like to see it fed with #14 , but if the wire runs are short enough or your control circuitry has relays , #16 is fine . <p> GM guy : We 're going to feed the high beam with #18 and the low beam with #20 . <p> GM guy : At 100% duty cycle , maybe , but these are headlights . They 're for use at night . It 's only night half the time . That 's a 50% duty cycle , so we do n't have to use the same gauge wire as if it were a 100% duty cycle . It 'll @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ low . We do n't need to worry about age ; we build new cars , not old ones . <p> Although GM began its long trend towards the crapper in 1958 when short-sighted finance men took over from the engineers , I think the company could have saved itself in 1999 if , and it 's a big if , they had not made Wagoner CEO . <p> After Wagoner took over , the writing was on the wall and the slide continued . Even in 2004 , before GM lost big , analysts looking at the market share and future liabilities said that GM had to file for bankruptcy . There was simply no way out of the hole that had been dug . <p> However , GM only could have been saved if Ross Perot ( or some other Robespierre figure ) had come in and fired the entire board and most of the company 's white collar , non-engineering talent . The chances of that happening were likely zero . Why just last year the big institutional investors backed Wagoner to stay on , and those @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you would have to go back and say that not going with Roger Smith , who piddled away $100 billion CASH during his tenure , was the last reasonable chance . GM could have been turned around and had the assets to invest in its future . Before that , DeLorean . And before that , 1958 . <p> Perhaps GM 's crowning folly during the ' 80s was the reorganization of its North American operations into two clumsy megagroups ... While that may have seemed sensible at the time , it created a new level of bureaucracy sandwiched between the automaking divisions and GM 's corporate headquarters . The results ranged from mass confusion to a proliferation of look-alike models . " Everything Roger Smith tried failed , " says Womack . " The screwball capital investment , the screwball reorganization . Smith was a guy who did n't want to hear the bad news . " <p> I believe Roger Smith 's reorganization finally pushed GM over the edge of the cliff . But it found a little bush called NUMMI to hang on to . Then , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ up via the difficult and steep NUMMI path , it decided to let go , and the final splat became inevitable . <p> Freedmike : GM enjoyed success with FWD with the Xs , the As and the Js came about because of the popularity of FWD cars like the Civic and Accord.And that started when they offered them as of April 1979 when the Xs were introduced . Almost their entire line was FWD by 1986 . <p> And by 1984 the Chevette was the most popular passenger car sold in America . <p> Your argument is correct though:they took a knife to a gun fight that far into the decade with the Chevette . <p> From a long-time Saab guys perspective it would be the late eighties . The attempt to do WHAT with Saturn ? At the expense of the established names . <p> The half purchase of Saab in 1989 . IIRC a big reason to buy Saab was to avoid paying royalties on the Automatic Performance Control system where by the turbos boost and engine timing is regulated depending on the quality of the gasoline @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ today , along with a highly regarded 4-valve head design . In 1994 , Saab and GMs first car together was compromised with a craptastic , unnecessary timing belt V6 crammed into it , along with a horrible clutch cable ( Saab had ALWAYS had a hydraulic clutch ) design . And Im sure there are dozens , hundreds , thousands of engineering and design compromises that ended up biting GM in the market-share . <p> There was never a real impetus to go after the German " myth " . The Japanese were coming on strong , the Koreans just arriving . Many of the problems that existed then still face the American industry today . <p> The " reorganization " of GM into BOC ( Buick/Olds/Cadillac ) and CPC ( Chevy , Pontiac , the C was for GM 's Canadian operations ) was a big deal here in Lansing . <p> Everyone who worked for GM in Lansing always said they worked for Fisher Body or Oldsmobile . Of course , it had been a corporate mashup for decades , but that reorg put an end to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the local plants . <p> I questioned why BOC vs . CPC when the Lansing plants also built the Pontiac Grand Am , but that reorg never made a bit of sense anyway . A few years later , it was forgotten . <p> If the homebuilding industry did not see this coming , then they were negligently clueless . By 2006 , I , and many others , had followed the housing bubble back to its source -- credit derivatives -- and were shocked at what we saw . If non-economists like me can figure it out , then there are a lot of clueless economists out there . <p> But , alot of people called it , but were pooh-poohed as doom-and-gloomers or given cutsie nicknames by the cheerleaders at CNBC ( e.g. " Dr. Doom " ) . But , the data was out there for all to see , and to say " hoocoodanode " is a little disingenuous . Heck , the European Central Bank , International Monetary Fund , and the Bank for International Settlements had been raising concerns since the early part of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the " Mortgage Lender Implode-o-meter " was started in 2006 , and " The Economist " was talking about this back in 2004 . Any ' economist ' who did n't see this coming was negligently incompetent . <p> Lokkii , the thing you overlooked is that accountants also tally up the costs of warranty claims , replacement parts , recalls and product liability lawsuits . So this explains part of my curiosity about specific examples of decisions to make poorly engineered products . I ca n't believe managers ( whether they started out as engineers or accountants ) will blithely accept massive repair charges , recalls , fines or judgments by saying , " Well , I still think the beancounters were right that the cheaper design was best . " <p> Now , I know that engineers are pressured to stay within cost targets . But I would expect them to be honest and tell decision-makers , " this design is cheaper to make but will have an awful failure rate . " ( Unless the engineers had a misplaced faith in the reliability of the design -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ open to question . ) <p> Again , any specific examples out there ? So many people have lost jobs at the D3 you 'd think some would be willing to reveal the story about , say , Dexcool or bad head gaskets . <p> I agree with Buickman that it was inevitable once they sold GMAC , but the actual sale was just another brick in the wall of lost opportunities , was n't it . <p> I remember reading an article in some magazine back sometime around the end of the ' 70s to the early 80 ? s , when due to the various oil price spikes of then recent years , small cars , mostly imported from Japan , were starting to really take off sales-wise , and they were eating Detroit 's lunch in that market segment . The writer(s) opined , supposedly on the basis of having interviewed Japanese auto executives , that the only thing the Japanese feared about their business was that General Motors would wake up , smell the coffee , and finally get it 's act together . They supposedly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ able to withstand GM 's enormous productive capacity . Get this : that the General would be able to undercut them on price and equal or outdo them on quality , in other words , the General could basically re-write the playbook if it only decided to do so . <p> Of course they were already so deep into denial even then that there was never really anything for the Asians -or anybody else- to fear . <p> No doubt , as someone who worked in the housing industry before and during the crash , I can say they saw a downturn coming . The housing market is cyclical , after all , and the official word was that they were anticipating a good-sized but sustainable downturn . <p> The forecasts were 10-15% down from boom-era sales , but since the boom era was so busy , it was almost like a return to sanity . Instead , sales went right off a cliff -- down 50% or more . <p> If they 'd seen THAT coming , then they 'd have started selling off land that they 'd bought @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> If the homebuilding industry did not see this coming , then they were negligently clueless . By 2006 , I , and many others , had followed the housing bubble back to its source ? ? credit derivatives ? ? and were shocked at what we saw . If non-economists like me can figure it out , then there are a lot of clueless economists out there . <p> MattPete for Fed Chairman ? : ) <p> Seriously , I saw the same predicitons that you did -- believe me , I was dependent on the mortgage and housing industries for my living -- but there was a huge divergence of opinion on what would happen between 2006 and 2008 . Everyone knew a downturn was coming ; few knew it would get as bad as it did . That 's because to push the market off a cliff , several things had to happen that were far from sure bets back in 2006 : $4 gas , the failure of AIG , and on and on . <p> I 'm hoping you came out OK from your market @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 1986 . That was the year when EVERY GM car except for the carry-over rear drivers ( Caprices , Caddy Broughams and the Olds/Buick fullsize wagons ) was absolute crap . It started earlier with the J cars but things got really bad with the miniature Eldorado and Riviera in ' 86 . GM went too far in downsizing , thinking that we would be willing to buy anything if it was small and got good gas mileage . Never mind if it was slow , ugly , plasticky and in the luxury brands chock full of unreliable electronics . By the time GM realized their mistake , several years later , they had destroyed 90% of the brand equity in Cadillac , took the most successful nameplate of the preceding 20 years ( Cutlass ) and made it meaningless , and turned Chevrolet into a synonym for mediocrity . Things were so bad as a result that it was impossible to resist the quick profits to be found in killing off the last rear drive platform just when they were starting to get it right again ( Impala SS @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ( but bigger and thirstier ) trucks and SUV 's . Leaving nothing to attract and retain the buyers who did n't want SUV 's . <p> In the late 70s -- early 80s , when they tried to counter the attack from Germany and Japan with a series of crap cars and then simply gave in to ennui -- they never listened to their dealers or their customers anyway . I was there -- they were so insular they actually believed that the customers were working for them and would take whatever they put out . <p> Ford was doing the same at the time and barely survived , and if it had n't been for Iacocca and his ( poor execution notwithstanding ) decision to try and bring the company into alignment with the new paradigm , Chrysler would n't have made it past 1982 . <p> Re : 50merc -- I do n't think you 'll be able to find a single story about this that covers all facets ; after the Ford Pinto debacle it 's rather difficult to trace individual decisions at one point in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at the customer level . I would gather that nobody really wants to know the whole story since that opens them to individual/career risk . <p> What is more common is that a cost target is established for a whole area of the vehicle based on a desire to make money on each car sold . It 's up to the engineers and purchasing guys to find a combination of parts that come within the target cost as a summation of all parts in that area of the vehicle . <p> Also consider that you 've got armchair captains ( both inside and outside the company ) . These are the people who come up with ideas about the right way to build a good car ... but these people do n't have to execute anything . They 'll always criticize anything that " is not best for the customer . " <p> So ... pretend you 're in charge of seating . You have pressure from marketing/customers who say buyers want some luxurious leather seats in their $25,000 car ( before incentives ! ) . It gets worked out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this $25,000 car , the interior can only cost AAAA . Turns out your allocation for seats is AA . You personally think AA bull-crap and you think the bean counters are screwing you . But , in spite of your reservations , you start doing a lot of work . It turns out your suppliers are all quoting costs that would blow up your target and the best you can do is AA + $10 . What 's your solution ? <p> Do you work with your peer engineers to find ways to save $10 elseware in order to fund your all-important seats ? This assumes your peers are n't encountering their own cost problems . <p> Do you keep working at the specs where you remove stitching or padding thickness to get those seats cheaper ? Hey now -- no compromises are allowed by those people blogging on the Internet ; they 'll chastise you ! <p> Do you start working with other seating engineers to try to find ways to share seating items so you get economies of scale by buying a higher volume of stuff from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ paper . Except some things are easier said than done . <p> Do you introduce " seats with leather seating surfaces " that are basically 10% leather and 90% vinyl ? This would put you under target , except it 's not really giving the customer the expensive leather seats that they originally claimed to want to have in their $25,000 car . <p> Do you raise the flag with your manager and find a way to get $10 of extra target to work with ( after all , your seats are extremely important ) ? Good luck with that ... your manager has more important problems as he 's trying to hit that AAAA target . <p> Do you think your suppliers of being lame with you and ask them to get $10 of cost out of those seats ? Again , good luck with that . <p> Do you pray ? Again ... good luck . <p> Oh -- and by the way -- the specs just changed on you . Apparently marketing wants to add color-contrast stitching because that looks more sporty . And no , you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ luck ! <p> Back when GM launched Saturn , the Japanese tide was strong but not yet a fait accompli . Detroit sedans still dotted the top ten sellers , and people honestly believed that GM was capable of launching " a different kind of car company " . And with customer satisfaction and dealer profitability so well-entrenched in the Saturn philosophy , it seemed for a minute that they just might make it . If only the cars had n't turned out to be just a different kind of crappy . <p> When they took the 350 from four bearings to two ? Seriously , Stu has it right . I 've owned a ton of Chevvies , but I 'm not going to miss this inept shadow of a company at all when it finally craters for good . <p> Late 70 ? s . That 's when they made crazy concessions to the unions . The executives knew that by the time those became a problem , they 'd be long gone . <p> Aroud the same time , they were putting out low-quality crap . They @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't stink . They considered themselves invincible ... too big to fail . Around the same time the company was beginning to be run by bean counters instead of engineers and car guys . That 's when they 'd try to save a few bucks using low quality steel , converting gas engines into craptastic diesles , having 5 brands with identical badge-enngineered cars , etc. which totally ruined their reputation and started a 30 year mass exodus to the imports . <p> That 's when they went to hell . The last minute they could 've pulled of some kind of miracle to save themselves ? I 'm not sure , but the farther from the late 770 ? s , the lower their chances became . <p> GM needed to be where they were in 2004 or so back in 1995 . The titanic was sinking long before Lutz got there . Sure , spending less on the big SUVs would 've helped , but it would n't have been the savior . Hind sight is 20/20 after gas prices double . In my opinion , they really @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ SUVs and they were selling like hot cakes for a while . The previous full size SUVs by GM were about 5 years behind the ball . <p> Around 1977-1978 . At that point , GM 's brands had been tarnished somewhat , but not irreparably , and the downsizing of the B-bodies and A-bodies ( a big gamble ) was paying off . The Japanese had n't yet been motivated by VRA to go after the higher-priced markets , Volkswagen was starting to stumble in the U.S. , and Ford and Chrysler were lurching toward bankruptcy . If GM 's X-body and J-body cars had been world-class efforts instead of mediocre half-measures , and if Roger Smith had n't tried to destroy the autonomy ( and identity ) of the divisions , things might now be very different . <p> Even then , it was unlikely . The factors that have contributed to GM 's decline -- the unbalanced power of finance , the insularity and arrogance of its leadership , the layers of bureaucracy and politics surrounding every decision -- were already formidable even a decade before that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when , under Roger Smith , GM started the W-body ( mid-sized ) platform design and engineering . Done correctly , GM might have corrected the downward trend that had started . <p> Instead , the W-body program was nothing but trouble , and it cost GM plenty -- in profits AND customers . They really have n't recovered . <p> The program was so illustrative of GM 's cultural and other problems that Smith decided to start with a " clean slate " , announcing the " Saturn " caper in 1985 . That did n't turn out too well either . <p> I think it was around 1980 that the GM magic was gone . Their cars looked like zombies created them . There was little effort in the vast majority of them . When they tried something new , it did n't work -- except for Saturn . <p> What would have happened if the X cars were as good as reviewers said they were ? What would have happened if the Pontiac Fiero showed that GM could create a space-frame , composite sided , commuter car @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ vans that attempted to find buyers who only sat behind the front seat to see an acre of plastic between them and the windshield to know something was dead wrong with them . Embarrassing mistakes across the board . We have a generation of poor efforts from GM . They dared us , so we walked away . <p> But whatever -- when could GM have turned it around after years of producing these boring cars ? <p> When they started crapping on their golden geese SUVs . We saw how they could n't get their act together building cars , then we saw stuff like the Pontiac Aztek and it 's Buick counterpart and saw the same zombie-mentality crapping there . <p> So , we could n't justify a car from them -- or an SUV anymore . So , what are we supposed to do ? We moved on . <p> The final nail was the 2nd generation Saturns . Specifically , they looked like their other products ( even though they were n't ! WTF ! ) and coincided with a changed dealership experience . If things @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ having become the profit center of the company and a sure sign that the other brands needed to differentiate more . <p> holydonut , I think your description of how it works is spot-on . Sure , there are blunders made by managers ( e.g. , neglecting family sedans ) , stylists ( dustbuster minivans ) or engineers ( Fiero 's habit of living up to its name ) . But the beancounters are really just scorekeepers . They say , " adding more soundproofing will put you over budget " or " unless $200 of costs can be removed , the vehicle wo n't cover overhead burden at your optimistic sales volume projections . " And the messenger gets blamed . <p> Buickman pointed out that selling GMAC ( which was keeping the company in the black ) was a pivotal event . You have to wonder if any GM executive or director ever said " gee , we could make money if we did n't make cars " ! <p> How many areas of manufacturing were destroyed in USA because of cheap asian imports ? <p> Manufacturing in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " is that productivity is so much higher that it takes fewer people to manufacture the same quantity of goods . The entire bargain that the UAW and GM had worked out was essentially a Ponzi scheme that depended on GM always employing the same number of workers , even though the foreign competition ( and domestic manufacturing in other fields ) had figured out how to do more with less labor . GM only had a few choices : <p> 1 ) Use more labor for the same car than competitors , and make more expensive cars . But this would only work in the luxury segment , and the volume in the luxury segment was n't large enough to employ all the UAW workers and factories . GM could n't do this without idling tons of workers and losing money . <p> 2 ) Try to cut the workers ' benefits . This would lead to strikes . <p> 3 ) Try to move out of the country ; this would violate contracts and also hurt their " American " appeal . <p> 4 ) Try to cut @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the new workers would n't be able to pay for the pensions and benefits of the retirees , leading to massive pension and benefit deficits . <p> 5 ) Use more labor for the same car as the competitors , and cut corners , and sell cars to people who wanted cheaper cars and did n't care about quality , or who cared enough about buying American or their father 's brand to pay the same for $2500 less car . Long term result : slowly alienate buyers and trash your reputation . <p> GM chose a combination of 4 ) and 5 ) , the UAW and GM management agreeing to deal with the problem of 4 ) by dumping the pension and benefits debts on the US taxpayers . <p> 1 ) When the Vega rusted in the showroom and the diesel sounding engine burned oil at less than 10,000 miles , and new fuel pump every 30,000 miles . 2 ) When the Corsica/Beretta came with an off-center steering wheel and seatbelts in the doors . 3 ) When the Chevette came with an off-center steering wheel @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ position . 4 ) When my Fiero went through 3 clutches in the first 2 years and not covered under warranty . When the brakes seized after having them serviced by a GM dealer as I drove away from the lot , when I had an engine fire after the GM dealer serviced my car , performing a recall that was supposed to prevent such a thing , and then the dealer trying to charge me to pay for the resulting repairs . 5 ) When my dad 's Pontiac 6000 would just shut itself down for no reason while moving . 6 ) When my Buick came with a misaligned door and I had to take it back 5 times and had to go in and show the GM service person how to fix it myself . When my Buick 's wheel bolts broke due to poor quality metal only to have GM deny warranty claiming I " must have tampered with them " while the car was under warranty . When the odometer stopped displaying shortly after warranty forcing me costly replacement of the entire dash gauge module @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lightbulbs . <p> You can see , I 've owned a lot of GM cars in my lifetime . GM probably could have turned it around if they put themselves in their customer 's shoes and took a serious look at how their customers really felt . GM could have easily built better cars . But they did n't . <p> I agree with most of the sentiments here , except for the person who said that GM has n't had any bona fide hits in the last 50 years . That is simply untrue . GM owned the industry in the 1960 ? s and 1970 ? s . However , the last " hit " I remember was the early-80 ? s Olds Cutlass . Great style , number one seller , horrible V-6 engine that blew after 60,000 miles . <p> The mid ' 50s through the mid ' 60s when GM completed the trashing of the Sloan market-segmentation strategy , went to common platforms and let every division push for volume . <p> The 1972 strike , and just about every subsequent UAW contract ; no @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ jobs bank ' . <p> The early 1980s as GM forced the whole company into a lemming-march over the FWD cliff . The 1981 Seville , the boat-tail FWD jokemobile , showed that GM had no understanding whatsoever that the luxury and near-lux market was leaving them behind ( I 'll give them a mulligan on the ' 75 Nova-Seville ; it was n't very good but it was n't the complete embarrassment the ' 81 was . ) <p> The day they first started using the floppy , sloppy multifunction turn-signal stalk typical of every GM car from the mid ' 70s until about five years ago . <p> The early 1980s as GM forced the whole company into a lemming-march over the FWD cliff . <p> GM was at it 's strongest when its line-up consisted of primarily RWD cars . GM 's most popular vehicles today are also RWD ( Trucks , SUV 's , Camaro , G8 ) . GM already has a formula that works , why keep trying to swim upstream building boring , me-too FWD cars ? ? <p> My non-expert answer would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ They HAD to be willing to take a strike to break through the UAW stranglehold on pensions , health costs and work rules , and when they did n't , by the 1990s they did n't have the financial slack to take a strike if they wanted to -- they were on the tiger 's back and could n't get off ( or at least could n't see how to convince their shareholders and creditors it would be worth it , and in/after the age of Milken and KKR

@@5132741 <p> Taylor Swift is always writing songs about the guys in her life , but we rarely hear of any of them writing a response song . Of course , not all of the guys she 's been involved with are musicians , but it 's always interesting to come across a song that 's dedicated to Taylor herself ! <p> When singer Adam Young of Owl City found out that Taylor 's song " Enchanted " was about the time she met him , he wanted to tell her how he could n't forget their meeting , either . He recorded a cover of " Enchanted , " rewriting the lyrics to basically say , " I was enchanted to meet you , too " . You can hear some of his own electronic sound in the audio as well . Adam included a Valentine 's Day note to Taylor with the song , which was totally adorable even though she never publicly responded to it . <p> Rapper Sammy Adams recently recorded his own remix of " I Knew You Were Trouble , " including an original verse dedicated to Tay ! We heard that Sammy actually @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ended up with a bit of a crush on her . He raps some super romantic lines in the remix , like how " some say they 'd sell their soul for a couple hits/ i 'd rather live/ a life of gold/ with the perfect chick " . Sounds like Sammy Adams may have fallen big time ! <p> Not all songs dedicated to Taylor are super sweet though . The Jonas Brothers were n't exactly enchanted when they heard " Forever &; Always , " which was about Joe Jonas ' breakup with Tay . The first few lines of their song " Much Better " are " I get a rep for breakin ' hearts/ Now I 'm done with superstars/ And all the tears on her guitar/ I 'm not bitter " . Ouch ! That 's a direct reference to one of Taylor 's first hits , " Teardrops on My Guitar " ( but that song was n't about anyone famous ) . <p> Which of these responses to Taylor 's songs

@@5132841 <p> THEIR IS ONE BIG PROBLEM -- others want your water and without special forces , you will continue to lose your assets . I have made this quite clear for 30 years and the same problem exists today ; you have no staff that sees the business dimension and economic value of water and no vision to do so . <p> Maximizing the value of your assets and adding value is not their priority .... IT MUST BECOME SO , using the best of the best people available . Your trustee must be focused on the future , not the past . <p> When you find yourself in a very deep hole , stop digging ... It is very odd that IID has gained massive liability the past 12 years and losses that will continue for decades -- the architect of QSA is the dream team lead by a bankruptcy specialist ? ? ? ? ? what a paradox ... and this deathly position cost you 130 million ? ? ? ? is one million pages ? ? ? ? IS IT TIME FOR CHANGE ? ? ? <p> What is wrong with this picture ... : selling @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ $200 per af when cost to conserve may be over $500 per af with no cost protection and the marginal cost of new water is $2340 per af and rising rapidly to four to six thousand per acre foot .... will go down as one of the most profoundly bad- mistaken economic miss-prices in the history book . Water will never be cheaper than today .... never ... I have repeated that for 30 years .... it is a truth ... <p> Fear and Greed rule investments . Citizens should be fearful today of the serious danger of the QSA now and going forward ... If you had new specialists working as a team you would become greedy and excited as you realized the great wealth inherent in your unique water rights . Everyone wins if the valley becomes super prosperous ... I can not imagine anyone if properly informed who would not sponsor change and go for prosperity in the valley . <p> Three fundamental questions must be asked now .... with a new strategy ready for 11-7-12 ACTION PLAN <p> 1 . What do we want to do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all water matters . Objective is a fair bargain an honest business deal . As is the valley can only lose . CHANGE and EVOLVE MUST BE KEY CONCEPTS . <p> 2 . How will we do it ? Utilize sound and advanced concepts ( water bank-drought insurance ) to protect our water and create value -- doing good for others and very well for ourselves . Knowledge backed NEGOTIATION . <p> We will first maximize the value of your assets while protecting them from dysfunctional QSA damage . <p> We will change the very negative current image to a dynamic and universally accepted David vs Goliath struggle . We will create a new platform for business like profitable transactions and fair dealing . We will create teamwork amount the best professionals and follow the historical rule of water rights : HE WHO HAS THE WATER MAKES THE RULES .... <p> I have studied investments all my life . Never have I seen a greater opportunity than that which exists in the Imperial Valley . I have put your interests ahead of mine by providing insights that would create value @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't it time we worked together as a team to provide a 11-7 action plan for opportunity ? <p> If not now , when ? <p> " In times of great change , Learners will inherit the earth ( and water rights ) , while the Learned will be beautifully equipped for a

@@5132941 <p> Atlas was a Titan in Greek Mythology that was forced by Zeus , King of the Gods , to hold up the heavens on his shoulders for eternity . Ayn Rand , a controversial novelist once wrote a book called " Atlas Shrugged , " where she warned of a society that would crumble if the most successful minds and achievers stopped contributing to it . Less dramatically stated , what would happen if Tom Brady shrugged ? Would the Patriots still be an elite team without Brady 's 5,000 yards and 40+ touchdowns ? <p> Bill Belichick has been called a defensive " genius " and by many , the greatest coach in NFL history . Does Belichick fall down in the ranking a little without Brady ? Yes in 2008 , Belichick took a Brady-less team to an 11-5 record . Let 's not forget that 11-5 was not good enough to make the playoffs . Let us also remember that the 2008 Patriots were one year removed from an 18-1 season , playing a weak schedule and still stacked with performing veterans . The Patriots still had Randy Moss , Wes Welker , Richard Seymour @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't there to win the big games and 11 was n't enough . So , began the defensive decline and the rebuilding phases on defense . <p> Yet , I continue to hear and read about how Tom Brady 's fall from grace is why the Patriots ca n't get over the Super Bowl hump for the fourth time . I ca n't argue with Jeremy Lunblad 's statistic about Brady 's QBR in the fourth quarter of games the last three year 's . I can argue that I think that statistic has been skewed by the fact that Brady is now playing quarterback without a net , which makes a tremendous difference . He does n't have Tedy Bruschi there to pick of a pass in 6-0 nothing game on a cold day in Foxboro . Nope , it 's all on Tom . <p> Bill Belichick does n't need to win another championship to put Spygate to rest . He needs to win another championship to prove he 's still got it . Otherwise , what makes Bill Belichick 's tenure as a head coach so much @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who has beaten Belichick twice now in the big game ? Like Belichick , Gibbs won three Super Bowls with the Redskins . He won those Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks over a ten-year span . None of those three quarterbacks were Hall of Fame quarterbacks ; not even close . Gibbs coached in a division with Bill Parcells , Tom Landry and very tough Philadelphia Eagles led by defensive guru Buddy Ryan . Gibbs also had to do it in the same era as the San Francisco 49ers , who won four Super Bowls in the 1980 's . Gibbs walked away from the Redskins and NFL football after the 1992 season . <p> He returned in 2005 to try to save the franchise that owner Daniel Snyder had turned into a laughing stock . It did n't work out as well for Gibbs the second time around . He coached four more seasons in Washington and made the playoffs twice . He reached the NFC Championship in 2005 with an ancient Mark Brunell at quarterback . In 2007 , the Redskins reached the playoffs with a 9-7 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was 67 years old during that season . In one game during the 2007 season the Redskins were destroyed by the Patriots 52-7 . The national media and the Redskins fans remarked after that game that the NFL seemed to be passing Gibbs by . Whether that perception was reality does n't matter , Gibbs hung it up at the end of season . He just could n't re-create the magic without a star quarterback . The game had changed and Gibbs did n't have Tom Brady , Peyton Manning or Drew Brees . <p> Bill Belichick is now 60 years old . So I ask the same question , " has the game passed Bill Belichick by , at least on defense ? " Is Tom Brady the only thing that is keeping this Patriot team from being nothing more than a middle-of-the-road team ? Belchick , from 1985-2007 , was as good a defensive mind as there was in the league . But in the last four years , the team has ranked 11th , 25th , 31st and 22nd in yards per game . <p> Currently in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but are pace to give up the most passing yardage and plays of over 20 yards than any team in NFL history . Take Tom Brady off this team the last four years and where are Belchick and the Patriots ? Brady is carrying this team . When he makes a mistake , when he has a bad game , they lose . Quarterbacks in the league bear responsibility for that more now than ever before in the NFL . Patriot success , though , is more closely aligned with Brady 's performance than any upper echelon team in the league . The 2010 Super Bowl Champion Packers scored just 21 points in Chicago to advance to the Super Bowl . Last year , the Giants defense kept Alex Smith from completing one pass to a receiver . The Patriots defense ca n't do that , and have n't been able to do it since 2007 . . The last four years there has been bad drafting on defense , bad free agent signings on defense and ineffective coaching by Belichick and his coordinatorsk . <h> Can Belichick Build a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the biggest mistruth told all week on Felger and Mazz 's the #1 rated Sports radio show in Boston during afternoon drive . I bring that up , because I expect the best show to fact check . The premise was that Bill Belichick has never really built a top team defense from nothing . He 's inherited Parcells players and brought in players he was associated with while an assistant with the New York Jets . That 's why the Patriots won three Super Bowls . Well that premise is FACTUALLY incorrect . Yes , while coaching with the Giants and Jets , Belichick was a coordinator and not in charge of personnel . And it is true that during his time in Cleveland he struggled putting a championship roster . The 2001 Patriots Super Bowl defense had 9 or 10 full time players that were both Parcells and Carroll holdovers or played under Belichick while he was with the Jets as an assistant . But by 2003 , only four of those players remained ( Ty Law , Willie McGinest , Tedy Bruschi , and Ted Johnson ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Law missed almost the entire season with a foot injury and by 2007 only Tedy Bruschi was left on defense . So Belchick can build a defense from scratch . The Patriots have been pillaged by the rest of the league . They lost two personnel directors , Scott Pioli and Thomas Dimitroff , to other organizations and three former defensive coaches left to be head coaches or coordinators elsewhere ( Romeo Crennel , Eric Mangini , and Rob Ryan ) . <h> Slow to Adapt <p> In what has become a " pass happy league " where the rules overwhelming favor the offense , it 's been difficult for any team with a top tier defense to win a Super Bowl without a top 10 quarterback . You look at the last five Super Bowl champions -- Giants , Packers , Saints , Steelers and Giants , they had franchise quarterbacks and they all had strong pass rushes and secondaries that hit hard , tackle well and did not give up big plays . Simply stated , pass rushers and big hitters in the secondary are what you need @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ find . <p> The pass rushers have been out there in the draft , whether it was Clay Matthews , Ryan Kerrigan , JJ Watt or Robert Quinn . Belichick passed on them or did n't move up high enough in the draft to land them . <p> When they have gone for those big bodies in the secondary they have missed : Ras I Dowling over Brooks Reed and Jabaal Sheard in 2011 , Tavon Wilson over Casey Heyward this year . <p> This past offseason the Patriots finally traded up twice and took a pass rusher , Chandler Jones at 22nd and a play making linebacker , Don'ta Hightower at 24th overall . What the heck took so long ? ? <p> So , it 's not that Bill is just missing in the draft . Every team misses on players every year . It 's that it took him three years to finally get aggressive in the draft , and when he does that he usually is successful . Now the Patriots are left having to rely on Chandler Jones as a rookie to generate a constant @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , not the first piece . As for the secondary , well Bill has drafted plenty of first and second round picks but still ca n't put together a pass defense that is even middle of the road . Seattle , who the Patriots played last week , have one of the better secondaries in the league and they have only one starter who was taken in the first round . <h> 2012 Offseason <p> For some inexplicable reason the 2012 New England Patriots came into the season with one of the youngest teams in the NFL . Why ? The 2001-2004 Patriots were comprised mostly of veterans on defense . During the last two off seasons the Patriots have failed to find another safety to pair with Patrick Chung . They passed on Dashon Goldson , Yeremiah Bell and Laron Landry in free agency . So that leaves you with Tavon Wilson and a Rubgy player ( Ebner ) in coverage against Sidney Rice with the game on the line . The Patriots defense has kept that fourth Lombardi trophy out of New England for three years running now @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ draft picks by adding no impactful veterans . Last year , the Patriots signed defensive ends Andre Carter and Mark Anderson , who combined for 20 sacks . Jones might match Carter 's stats , but they have nothing to replace Anderson , which puts more pressure on the secondary . <h> Coaching Staff and One Man 's Ego <p> " Good Science allows for more than one opinion otherwise you have will of one man , which is the basis of a cult . " <p> Has the Patriot Way become a cult ? Does only Belichick 's opinion matter anymore ? The NFL and college ranks are littered with coaches from the Belichick tree . Maybe it 's time for Belichick to ask for some help . Look at some of the better defenses in the NFL : Chicago , Seattle , Atlanta , Houston and Minnesota . Their head coach is either a former defensive coordinator or an ex-head coach turned coordinator . When Belichick came to New England , it was Charlie Weis on offense and it was Bill 's defense . Now all Belchick 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It 's as if he has forgotten how to handle the defensive side of the ball . Or maybe it 's Belichick 's defensive coaches , who are unable to teach his philosophy to their players . Defensive coordinator Matt Patricia , cornerback coach Josh Boyer , safeties coach Brian Flores , defensive line coach Patrick Graham and linebackers coach Pepper Johnson deserve a fair share of the blame . Outside of Johnson and Patricia , you probably do n't recognize these names . Once again , that reflects on Bill . We know who Josh McDaniels is , we knew Bill O'Brien , and heck we knew Brian Ferentz was the tight ends coach last year . <p> Bill Belichick , like every head coach , has a giant ego . Maybe it 's that ego that keeps veteran coaches out of New England . Parcells was never was afraid to search out Belichick if he needed him . He did n't seem to care if he got all of the credit . The Patriots won three Super Bowls because they had veteran talent , drafted well , coached @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ also had Tom Brady . Brady is the solution , not the problem . <p> For seven seasons it was the perfect equation : Brady + Belichick = Championships . A majority of the Patriot fan base still follows the motto , " in Bill we trust . " But in an election it 's OK to ask , " Are you better off now than you were four years ago ? " On defense , the answer still seems no . The Patriots have 10 weeks to get it back on track . If the defense fails them for the fifth straight season , Belichick will still be associated with Gibbs , Parcells , Shula and Landry , but this time it will be for different reasons . <p> From Woburn , MA , George has been an avid follower of the Boston sports scene ( teams and media ) for 30 years and has been a contributor to Boston Sports Media Watch and PatriotsDaily.com since 2009 . Feel free to send him

@@5133041 <h> The development of dancing in Russia <p> Submitted to DanceArchives by Stanislav Popov : 25 years of Russian Dance Union ( RDU ) <p> 2012 is the year of anniversary for Russian Dance Union . Our organization is 25 years old now . We are happy to greet all the faithful admirers of ballroom dancing and would like you all to share with us our love for it . <p> Our story started in Soviet Union . There was no such freedom in getting information and traveling at that time as we have now . But there was a huge enthusiasm of people who saw ballroom dancing as their life choice and destiny . In spite of strong pressure from party and government bodies , dancing studios in our country existed where young teachers , engineers , students -- truly amateurs studied the basics of dancing . Many of them later started to do it professionally . <p> The beginning of ballroom dancing development in the Soviet Union was marked in 1957 . <p> The beginning of development of competitive ballroom dancing in Soviet Union was marked with a competition held in 1957 during the World Festival of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Moscow . The ballroom dancing competition of such a high level and with foreign participants and judges was held for the first time . The first place went to Marion and Norman Grande ( Great Britain ) , and the best couple of that time , European champions Harry and Dorin Smith-Hampshire performed a show . They received fantastic appreciation , the applause lasted for 15 minutes . The importance of their performance then can be proved by the fact that they were invited to Kremlin with other participants for the government reception . <h> In the 1960s the first dance studios started to appear in Moscow . <p> One of them was a studio of Bruno Belousov in community centre " Khimik " . Nowadays Bruno Belousov who has already celebrated his 75th anniversary continues to work in his studio and in Russian Dance Union Presidium . Many of those , who can now be called maitres of Russian dancing , started in his studio . One of his students in 1960-s were Stanislav and Lyudmila Popovi . <p> At that time dancing studios only started to appear in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ competitions were held . But apart from dances included in international syllabus , so called " soviet syllabus " was performed . It included the dances of USSR people , traditional ones stylized for ballroom . Party and government bodies controlled not only the obligatory inclusion of those dances , but even the costumes of the couples . <p> Nevertheless the development of ballroom dancing was already unstoppable . <p> In 1972 the first All-USSR Ballroom Dancing Competition was held in Moscow with the inclusion of international syllabus . The program consisted of several parts : international ( 10 dances , but polka instead of jive ) , historical ( 4 dances ) and soviet ( 36 dances ) . The winners were Lithuanian couple Cheslovas and Jurate Norvaisha. ( pictured on right with John Tan ) <p> In 1975 Second All-USSR Ballroom Dancing Competition was held in Kiev . The participants performed three dances of their choice from each of two groups ( from 8 dances of soviet and international syllabus ) . Stanislav and Lyudmila Popovi won that competition . <p> 1975 is memorable also because the official @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in 1979 an exceptionally important event took place in our country -- we hosted the fourth Championship of Socialist Countries here . In Modern the winners were Vitas and Dalya Kamaitis , and in Latin and 10 dances the winners were Stanislav and Lyudmila Popovi . <p> In 1978 in " Integrated Sports Classification for 1978-80s " the words " sport dancing " appeared for the first time . All the necessary documentation for that for Ministry of Sports was prepared by Leonid Magaziner , Alexander Chekotkin and Stanislav Popov . However , party bodies interfered again and did n't give way to this initiative . <p> Starting from the 80s , soviet couples started to regularly take part in international competitions in socialist countries . And the best couples presented USSR at the official amateur and professional competitions . Before that performances were just episodic and only for professionals who got personal invitations from the organizers . At that period the studio of Stanislav and Lyudmila Popovi actively worked . ( pictured on right ) <p> Such famous dancers as Petr and Alla Chebotarevi , Vladimir and Olga Andrukini @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Vladimir and Elena Kolobovi , Leonid Pletnev and Vian Arif , Artur and Maria Lobovi , Alexey and Svetlana Dmitrievi were in this studio . All of them later became the members of a new professional organization . <p> At that period the first amateur and professional organizations start to appear . <p> At first in 1982 all-USSR Soviet of Ballroom Dancing was created . Cosmonaut Leonid Popov became the Chairman , Cheslovas Norvaish was Vice-Chairman and Stanislav Popov became the Chairman of competitive division . The same year Stanislav also became the leader of Moscow State Section of Ballroom Dancing Teachers and in 1987 at the all-USSR Musical Society artistic commission of ballroom choreography was created by Stanislav Popov . It became the direct predecessor of the Russian Dance Union . On its base in 1988 Association of Professional Performers and Teachers of Ballroom Dancing was established . Later it was transformed into Russian Dance Union . Since 1988 RDU is the full member of international professional organization WDC . <h> The history of RDU competitions dates back from October 1988 . <p> In those days Stanislav Popov @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ first time the soviet syllabus was excluded from it . The dancers competed only in Modern and Latin dances ! The competition was n't called a Championship yet , but its winners can be probably called our first national professional champions . <h> Those names are : <p> in Modern -- Stanislav and Lyudmila Popovi <p> in Latin -- Yuris and Biruta Baumanis <p> in Modern Showdance -- Stanislav and Lyudmila Popovi <p> in Latin Showdance -- Talyat and Marina Tarsinovi <p> And soon after the national competition in December 1988 the first Moscow International Professional competition took place with the leading dancing couples of the world taking part . At that event the organizers , Stanislav and Lyudmila Popovi retired from competitive dancing with their last farewell slow waltz . And in the Gala-show , two times World Latin Champions Espen and Kirsten Salberg and five times Latin Champions Alan and Hazel Fletcher took part ; with their " Latin Fantasy II " . The show of outstanding experts of ballroom dancing not only amazed the Moscow audience but gave a huge impulse to Russian dancers . <p> Next @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And Moscow International Competitions -- once in every two years . There were four of them : the second one in 1990 , the third one in 1992 , and the fourth one in 1994 . Collecting this experience , in 1995 Stanislav Popov started to organize a new annual international competition -- World Challenge Cup ( now named " World Latin Cup " in Kremlin , officially registered as " Trade mark " in 2009 ) . For these 17 years the competition became one of the most beautiful and prestigious professional event in the world . And of course , it 's the most recognizable one of all Russian competitions . <h> The first World Cup took place at the " Malaia " Sports Arena in Luzhniki . <p> Couples competed in two styles : Modern and Latin . During the two days the hall for 8000 places was full . The names of the winners say everything about the level of the competition . In Latin the winners were at that time 11 times World Champions Donnie Burns MBE and Gaynor Fairweather MBE ( Scotland ) , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Arzenton ( Italy ) . <h> Our Russian couples that took part in the finals : <p> Victor Nikovsky and Larisa Davydova <p> Sergey Duvanov and Svetlana Tveryanovich in Latin <p> Gennadiy Gunko and Alla Chebotareva <p> Leonid Pletnev and Tatyana Pavlova in Modern <p> Starting from 1996 , the World Cup was held in the Banquet Hall of the Kremlin Palace in the very centre of Moscow . Many guests , especially foreigners , started to call the World Cup " Kremlin Cup " . Only Latin-American dances were left in the schedule . The competition became more exclusive -- the number of the audience became less , the atmosphere -- more intimate , but not less warm than in Luzhniki . Donnie Burns and Gainor Fairweather again won the competition in 1996 . <p> After that Jukka Haapallainen and Siirpa Suutari won the Kremlin Cup three times and Brian Watson and Carmen won it four times . From Russia we had Sergey Ryupin and Elena Khvorova and later Slava Kryklivyy with Elena Khvorova as the winners . <p> In 2007 for outstanding service in development of ballroom dancing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Russia -- " Honorary Worker of Art " . The awarding ceremony was held in Kremlin by President Vladimir Putin . <p> Established in the first place as the professional dancers and teachers organization , nowadays RDU successfully develops amateur division in WDC &; AL . At the latest RDU Championship ( 6-8 April 2012 ) 1300 amateur dance couples took part . The victory of Russian Junior Team in Blackpool 2012 , and the World Amateur Latin title won by Kirill Belorukov and Elvira Skrylnikova and many other achievements of amateurs can prove the success of this development . <p> For the last several years RDU grew not only in quantity but mostly important in quality . <p> Traditions , established 25 years ago , got their further development . For the last two years RDU Championships are held like one unit , the United Dancing Festival ; including competitions in all ages and styles in amateurs and all styles in professionals ( except 10 dances ) . And there is one more new interpretation of traditions . In the RDU as an artistic organization it was a tradition @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ award has its name -- " Recognition " Prize . And on 5th of June 2012 , the first Tuesday after Blackpool , for the third time already it will be given to best of the best at the Grand gala-dinner . Producer of this event in 2010-2012 was Leonid Pletnev . <p> And to finish the article , one more very interesting document -- an English newspaper ( Dance News ) article from 1983 reported about that years World Modern Championship , where the couple from USSR ( in text-from Russia ) took part in it for the first time : Stanislav and Lyudmila Popovi . And the author hoped that maybe some day such championship would be held in Russia . But it was presented as something unbelievable . Almost 30 years passed , and in our country not only official championships are held regularly , but our dancers become champions . The author of that article in English newspaper could n't even dream about that . <p> That particular World Championships included entries from 21 nations , represented by 34 couples ; the top dancers of each @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ little-known in the world of Ballroom Dancing , but whom we know to be amongst the worlds leaders in other forms of dance , such as Ballet . Perhaps we may now look forward to seeing a World Ballroom Dance Championship held in Moscow at some future date ? Is it a possibility ? <p> Considering their lack of experience in this type and class of event , the two couples , Vladimir &; Olga Andrulein and Stanislaw &; Ludmilla Popov , acquitted themselves remarkably well , finishing amongst the worlds top 24 couples . <h> About author <p> Brigitt Mayer-Karakis is a former competitive ballroom dancer . She is the author of the award winning book " Ballroom Icons " , World Championship judge , coach

@@5133141 <h> It 's too much to come up with something clever . <p> I have been terrible about documenting our last couple of weeks . Even with my phone . Maybe it is the pneumonia that WON'T.GO.AWAY or the therapy sessions every waking second of the day or the husband who ditched me for Seattle . Not sure which one wins that competition ... but it has all amounted to a hill of beans as far as picture taking goes . <p> So here are a few lousy , random shots that I was able to scrounge up from my phone . <p> A few weeks ago I snuck away for the day with my parentals to the lake under the guise of a " work day " . My dad worked on building a fence and my mom and I worked on locating all of the antique haunts around town We found a few treasures ( an arm load of yard sticks , 3 walking canes , and a tiny flower frog for me ) . We hit an interesting " farm " where a raving mad dog nearly kept us from being able to leave the car @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ made it there . I 'm not a huge fan of pretty antique stores . I kind of like the " cluttered , dirty , **40;6188;TOOLONG ... kind of stores ( mainly ... those are the stores where I can afford stuff ) . But I think this barn/store may have crossed the line for me as it was more of a **37;6230;TOOLONG kind of place . Although . I did find my treasured blue yardstick so it was worth the tetanus shot . <p> Piles and piles of stuff . These were fun little drawers . What do you do with stuff like this ? I guess no one else knows either judging from the 14 years of filth ? <p> Dirty nasty but could be lovely jadite <p> On another note . My kids do n't snuggle in bed . Are n't they Baby Magic fresh and sweet in this photo ? <p> Reality check . for the house crashers among us ... there is a little sneak in on our sadly neglected 1980s bedroom <p> On another side note ... HAPPIEST OF BIRTHDAYS to my niece who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I made you for dinner tonight made all your dreams come true . Thank you for filling in for my hubby . You are a wonder with the kids . I 'm sorry he could n't be here to cook you up a proper meal . I hope

@@5133241 <p> Reports on the ground are that over 32k votes were recounted today in 12 hours which finished around 9PM , but for some reason the remaining 304 votes could n't be completed in 2 hours . Officials are saying an automatic alarm is set at 11PM and they are forcing everyone to leave and come back in the morning at 8AM to finish the recount . The deadline is tomorrow noon . <p> I asked , how is the alarm being automatically set , when you guys were here until 2 am on election night .... Their response to me .. We are closing . Sheriff then ask me leave <p> This certainly smells fishy and hopefully people will stand guard tonight to ensure the building is and do not engage in personal attacks . Otherwise we will revoke your comment privileges . <p> http : //twitter.com/KelsH2 Kels H2 <p> I hope people are standing guard and video surveillance is being utilized . Just to be on the safe side . <p> las1 <p> Alarm ! Ha ! <p> More likely a dog whistle for Democrats . <p> freenca <p> That does certainly raise the eyebrows and wrinkle @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> Sure it stinks . And if they 're not careful , West 's people will step in t and not realize it , because the vote thieves are doing their best to hide their tracks . <p> marketcomp <p> I think we need to show some patience . I mean these people have been going every since 8:00AM this morning . I think that if the results remained would n't they annouce that immediately ? Although , I am not sure what would happen if the count remains or if LTC . West was ahead its a public relations call . Moreover , if there are more than 304 votes or ballots to be counted then could more be added over night without sounding an alarm ? Moreover , these 304 ballots or votes are suppose to be hand counted so that tells me that the machine count is completed and this was a stopping point , maybe . I do n't know the process for recounting in Florida but I think it 's far from the nightmare in 2000 . I just hope that Allen West wins or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> See , that is the problem . They seem to have their own rules or make them up so no one knows anything . Then they work their vote counting magic and the Dem wins every time . <p> marketcomp <p> You are right BetsyRoss ! I am seeing that early voting is the problem . When they get those votes in no one is watching so those votes can be double counted or maybe triple counted to get the results that they need . And does anyone think that the union thugs in conjunction with the Prez would n't triple count ballots when no one is looking ? How does anyone knoe when the ballots come in , especilly the military ballots . The RNC must do something about this either give every ballot a serial number that is tamper proof , tamper proof a seal so if broken can not be reused , program machines to only one number for one ballot , or eliminate early voting all together . <p> " It 's not the people who vote that count . It 's the people who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> Patriot077 <p> I 'm very curious about the results of the votes counted today .... I hope someone in West 's camp knows the number . <p> Centurian3333 <p> Allen West was the runaway favorite to be Florida 's governor in 2014 if our current governor were not running for election . That Sunshine News Viewpoint poll ran West against Florida 's top political names . Sid <p> Luker410 <p> Move Along ... Nothing to see here . <p> Centurian3333 <p> West was the runaway winner in a Sunshine News Viewpoint Poll , topping 14 top Florida candidates . The poll asked if the current Florida governor chose not to run for re-election , who would you choose as the candidate ? West topped the field . <p> white531 <p> What a surprise . <p> sjmom <p> Maybe they know Allen West has won and they want to delay the announcement as long as possible . <p> white531 <p> People like the man . Ca n't keep them from doing that . It is what it is . The average American is looking for a leader they can believe @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is a born leader . He has , " Patriot , " written all over him . You ca n't sweep a person like Allen West under the rug . He is here to stay . <p> We have to get rid of Obama , they have to get rid of Allen West . Let 's see who wins . <p> JRD1 <p> No , the corrupt Bush crime family has to get rid of Allen West . The Soros backed progressives merely assist . Wake up ! The corrupt gopE is NOT your friend . The corrupt Republican controlled Jeb Bush Florida legislature redistricted West out of his seat . West came up with a blueprint of how he could still keep his seat . The gopE chose to redistrict West out of his seat instead of DNC chair Wasserman-socialist ! <p> sDee <p> Two competing crime families . That analogy fits what we see all around us . <p> http : **37;26536;TOOLONG librtifirst <p> Some people are talking about Obama 's third term . The guy in this interview has some interesting points . <p> They get into @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ how much power big oil has in elections , maybe what he is saying is plausible . <p> Edit : Fraud wins elections , but what are the connections behind the fraud ? <p> TitaniumEagle <p> Anyone know if this ' alarm ' happens to let liberal activists into the building without incident ? <p> **25;26575;TOOLONG <p> As a matter of time I am on my eay there to stand guard for the night . The address is 4132 Ockechoobe Rd Ft Pierce Fl If anyone wants to go there please feel free to be there . <p> http : //tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie <p> Good man ! Keep us informed of anything you do or do n't see please . <p> http : **26;26602;TOOLONG Jasmine Clark <p> i hope nothing sneaky happens overnight . <p> http : **44;26630;TOOLONG Alex <p> Hope it turns out well . <p> colliemum <p> It is truly strange that there is such extreme resistance by these officials to get the proper vote count , and to resort to bureaucratic officiousness . After all , this is ' only ' a House seat ! <p> I ca @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just an enormous effort to keep Allen West out . I think this is the tip of the iceberg , and the dems are running scared of getting found out . It is very odd however that the GOPe nationally and in Florida is keeping utterly quiet about this , that the ' new leaders ' like Jindal or Rubio are having nothing to say about this scandal at all . Obviously , the corrupt MSM are not interested and thus are not reporting anything . What do they care about the foundations of the republic ! <p> " Fishy " is n't even beginning to describe this heap of stinking manure ! <p> http : **37;26676;TOOLONG librtifirst <p> It 's probably not just the democrats that want him out . That is a good sign , if the establishment is agreed on getting rid of him . <p> Edit : Whoever the establishment goes after must be a good guy . <p> colliemum <p> True -- the GOPe do not want any true conservative in their ranks , and are happy to tacitly or openly help the dems/socialists to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them . The way they treated Sarah Palin is proof , if any were needed . Now the same with Allen West : letting him twist in the wind , never mind that the basis on which the Republic is supposed to function is being destroyed by these criminal manipulations of the election process . <p> It 's becoming more evident by the day that the GOPe does not deserve the trust of the people -- and nor do all those who , from the safety of their seat , overlook what is going on . Yes , Mr Jindal and Mr Rubio -- I am talking of you ! <p> http : **37;26715;TOOLONG librtifirst <p> I now believe that the federal government is illegitimate , and the states are going to have to act . If not , then it is all lost . Either nullification or succession will take place , or this country will be finished of in a few short years . <p> The fire of liberty is dimming . <p> p m <p> Want to know why the republicans do n't , wo n't and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the full story about how the reps gave the rats full license to commit voter fraud ... everywhere . It is truly scandalous . This is how they stole this election : <p> I 've read this , and I 've seen it linked in various places for some time now . <p> If the GOPe really is hiding behind this decision , then they have extremely bad lawyers counselling them . But then again , as many have said since 2011 : the GOPe did not really want to win this election , because they want a clear run for either Jeb Bush or one of his surrogates in 2016 . We were called conspiracy wingnuts at that time -- but it is looking more and more likely , is n't it ! <p> BrooklynNYConservative <p> **30;26754;TOOLONG ... the electoral college <p> http : **37;26786;TOOLONG librtifirst <p> The electoral college was designed to keep the big cities from voting for everyone else . it has been turned around to allow the stupid masses to control the rest of the country . <p> This country would be politically unrecognizable to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ experiment is over , and liberty has lost . Lincoln ended states rights , and general Lee was correct in saying that he was fighting to save the republic . It just took a few more decades for the banks and corporations to take over . <p> http : //tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie <p> Hiding behind that agreement is a cop out , a sell out and a cowardly way out . They are the GOP not the EMM ( Excuse Making Machine ) or at least I thought they were . <p> BOPOS <p> I think a recount of every ballot from every precinct in the entire Country should be double checked . I would bet my life Romeny really won . <p> http : **37;26825;TOOLONG librtifirst <p> Romney was nominated via fraud , then lost the election due to fraud . This is how it works in America now . <p> There is no way to count all of the ballots , because the ballots do n't exist in many areas . We now have electronic elections , and he who controls the machines controls the electorate . <p> JRD1 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . The Bush crime family saw to that ! <p> BOPOS <p> There was a paper printer that recorded my vote on my machine . I do n't know if all are that way . Why do you say Romney won nom by fraud ? <p> http : **37;26864;TOOLONG librtifirst <p> Most people that I talk to are not aware of it , because it was the RP people who forced it , and exposed it . It did get some coverage by the media , but it was liberal media that covered it to slam the GOP during the primary . It was basically under the radar of most conservatives . <p> RP was focusing on campaigning hard in the caucus states . Though he has little chance of winning the nomination , he would have had a platform at the convention if he won enough states . In the end , he did win enough states to get a platform at the convention , but was still denied . <p> Nevada is the best example of fraud in the primary , so for the purpose of narrowing it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ example , I will limit to that for now . <p> Most of the fraud was recorded via " handy cam " and personal testimony . There are many youtube videos on this . The vote counts in the states were taken at the caucus ' , then phoned in to a secret tabulation location that the GOP set up . Many who were at the caucus ' recorded the individual vote counts . When they checked on their votes later , the numbers were flipped for Romney . In some cases , a particular district recorded 2 votes for Romney , then after checking with the state GOP as to how they were recorded found out that Romney was awarded 22 of their votes . <p> The RP people won Nevada hands down . They won it because the took almost all of the delegate slots . They could not take that many delegate slots if they did n't actually get most of the votes , because delegates are awarded to a particular candidate based on how many votes they got . The delegates are awarded at the district @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to their candidates . <p> After the RP people literally took over the Nevada state GOP , the Romney camp and the national GOP came into Nevada and created their own new GOP and simply cut out the duly elected RP delegates . <p> You could do a search on youtube for " Maine delegates " , or " Maine RNC " , and you will get an idea about how they nullified the Maine delegates . <p> Nebraska brought in electronic voting machine to the state convention at the last minute . This is not how it is normally done , but the electronic machines can be used to put in whoever they want , and the RP people were dominating Nebraska . <p> Oregon ( my state ) cut out their duly elected RP delegates and put in their Romney delegates . <p> The rules changes made at the RNC were all about being able to do all of this according to the new rules , in the next election . It was all illegal this time around and against the GOP rules . Do your remember how @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Here are a few , but what needs to be understood is that where electronic voting took place , the primary could easily be rigged , and the caucus ' were exposed to be fraudulent because of the open process . <p> Legally elected Missouri Chairman arrested : <p> If we ever want a non-establishment nominee , then we had better do what the Paul people did , and on a mass scale . We had also better get rid of electronic voting and vote counting . We can not allow the GOP to flip the votes in a " secret " counting location . It does n't matter who is running , their pick will take votes from all of the rest . <p> Rocco11 <p> You have to watch those Leftist criminals like a hawk ... <p> http : //twitter.com/duluthcook Sally Morris <p> I 've been looking for an update all day Saturday . When I read this , I stepped back for just a second , while the thought sunk in ..... This is America ? We are talking about votes an American election ? I do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the brave anymore . I know , I know . My sleepy childhood mind caught up with my adult brain after a few minutes , but for a moment it was an utter shock to see how far we have fallen . <p> sDee <p> You have got it right . The truth will make us miserable . This is just what surfaces -- a truth is so evil and ugly , yet so fantasied and romanticized by the media , that even a glimpse of it will send the natural slaves running back to the safety and comfort of their TV 's . <p> There are those who will fight through it for the truth . What is behind this , may be far worse than what bubbles to the surface . <p> http : //tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie <p> Hope they made sure the building was really actually empty before locking up for the night . Watch the windows for signs of flashlights and/or lights mysteriously going on and off " by themselves . " If you know what I mean . <p> las1 <p> My concern would also @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the 304 ? <p> Man ! I 'm just going crazy here . Waiting ... and now this . <p> Reading some of the comments on local Florida news posts is truly disgusting . One theme constantly regurgitated is that West is an extremist . <p> And it all goes to prove that with Democrats , race is not even the issue . It 's all about their far left ideology of hate . It does not matter what race , or what marginalized group or what colour you are ... if you do n't toe the line of the leftists , you just will not be accepted ... PERIOD ! Then their mantra becomes , " get em ... demonize em ... kill em ... <p> http : //tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie <p> Let 's hope Col. West will have the last laugh and be able to tell those who plotted to subvert the electorate 's wishes to " stick it ! " And yes , I 'm being polite . <p> badbadlibs <p> Perfect summation , las1 . <p> akgrama <p> Thank you , Allen West , for standing up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ MEN in our leadership that would not tolerate dishonesty . <p> SKL53 <p> You ca n't trust the left ! They are underhanded creeps who do n't do things fair and square ! Honorable people such as Allen West do n't exist among the progressives ! They have to lie , cheat and claw their way ! <p> badbadlibs <p> The left traded any honor they might have had years ago for the seduction of power . <p> Someone here ( so sorry , name escapes ) wrote : <p> There 's honor then there 's obama . It can also be said , " There 's honor , then there 's democrats " . <p> NYGino <p> They really do think we 're a bunch of idiots , unfortunately it seems like the majority of voters are . <p> badbadlibs <p> yuuup ! <p> jrt1031 <p> What seems odd to me is that on election night results for states were in within seconds of closing times and yet a re-count takes months and seems almost impossible to certify . Why isnt there a standard for vote counting that is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the margin of error it seems impossible to have an honest truthful vote in the USA . <p> How many of us distrust our vote counters ? I actually think we may have made a fatal error getting away from paper ballots which can be recounted . The machines can happily hum away and , at the end of the night , register whatever the heck they were programmed to register . <p> " " The first crew that went to retrieve the machine grabbed the wrong one , one without any results . A second crew had to be dispatched . <p> " We 've never had it happen before , " Walker said . <p> Elections officials also had to manually rerun the early voting results from the four locations for Thursday through Saturday because the results from cards used in the machines showed errors when they were downloaded Tuesday night " " <p> NOZERO2012 <p> Has n't anyone yet realized that surveillance cameras were invented quite some time ago ? <p> Perhaps they have , but still do n't know how to operate them . <p> wodiej @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Either they are going to try some shenanigans or they are delaying the bad news for liberals . <p> http : //tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie <p> I think Col. West is gong to win and they know it . So they stall so they can get the message out to their cronies and political operatives so they get their " story straight " and all sing from the same " song sheet " when the news breaks . I could be wrong , but I rarely am ! <p> kong1967 <p> That makes a lot of sense . However , according to Rshill7 , a Republican is in charge of the recount . If that 's true , I 'm baffled by them leaving with less than ten minutes worth of counting to do . <p> sickofit5 <p> If there has been misconduct what are the chances of dear old Eric getting involved . 0 <p> Haywoodjbl <p> This will be interesting ........ <p> Rshill7 <p> I read that there is now a Republican in charge of the recount . His name is Todd Mowry . He is Vice Chair of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wish I could be comforted by knowing that a Republican is in charge . <p> http : //tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie <p> Same here . Do n't want to get my hopes up with the way they 've been dashed and bruised recently . But a little hope ... That I can manage . West for the WIN ! <p> NYGino <p> Sadly it has come to that point . We do n't know who to trust anymore . <p> marketcomp <p> Well that says whatever the results are there will be NO recount . If the results are going to be certified on Tuesday there is really no time for a recount . So let 's pray and hope the results are with LTC . West ! <p> kong1967 <p> Are we sure everyone even left the building ? <p> This is bullcrap . In my eyes they are up to something . At the rate they counted throughout the day , it would take less than 10 minutes to count the remaining votes . They make it very difficult to give them any credibility or trust . <p> dave kenny @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ African Country run by dictators Hm .. West is a warrior with friends and will know what to do The left to worry about and fight are the traditional media and judges Get them sorted and the socialists are finished Start by pulling the plug on cable , that poision you allow your family to watch <p> marketcomp <p> I just heard that Murphy is the winner : ( ! <p> http : //tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie <p> Hope that 's not true . <p> marketcomp <p> I hope so to , Wolfie ! <p> http : //tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie <p> Drudge has nothing about the result yet , where did you hear your news ? <p> marketcomp <p> Sorry ! <p> http : //tinyurl.com/wwsotu Wolfie <p> Nothing to be sorry for . <p> Rshill7 <p> Nope . <p> Rocco11 <p> The Left has our side navel gazing about reaching across the aisle , and appealing to women , and Hispanics while they 're busy stealing elections . Wake up people , there 's a communist in the White House .... <p> Steve B <p> FORT PIERCE , Fla. -- A noon deadline @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Democrat Patrick Murphy and Republican U.S. Rep. Allen West . <p> Officials in St. Lucie County , where a recount was being conducted , made no announcement of their findings . <p> Under state law , unless they have received an emergency exemption from the state , unofficial results filed last week will be certified . <p> Those results showed Murphy the winner in the race by about 1,900 votes . <p> Rshill7 <p> West attorneys going to back to court for an extension due to

@@5133341 <h> WoW races that need to be playable <p> As it turned out Pandas was a great idea , so with that in mind I hope for greater open-mindedness from Blizz regarding new playable races to be introduced over the coming years . Here are some suggestions that I , with input from Pike , would especially like Blizzard to consider : <p> 1 ) Tuskarr . These are top of the list , and should have been playable since Wrath instead of adding DKs . They are The Best Race . They are big fat Walrusmans who build big Walrusman moai and I forget to finish my sentences AND they have the best lines ! " Visit again when you can ! " 2 ) Ethereals . They are the Second Best Race , and I ca n't even begin to fathom why they 're not playable because they 're blatantly superior to everything else that is n't a walrusmans. ( everything after this point is in no particular order ) 3 ) Ogres . They really should have been playable since Day One , let 's be honest here . 4 ) Mantids . These guys look @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be able to say things like " It 's time to swarm. " or " I must speak with the Adjunct ! " . 5 ) Grummles . I love them and their constant talk about luckydos is amazing . I especially like how their name is their luckiest luckydo , so some of them have names like " Half-eaten Fish " and " Wooden Spoon " . 6 ) Naga . The quests in Vash'jir where you are a Naga Battlemaiden are great , because you get to see how cool as heck Naga are . Turns out they 're refined , treat their underlings reasonably , and act with respect and decorum ! Also they have that crazy spinny-blade blender move that minces everything . 7 ) Iron Vrykul and Iron Dwarves . Rock-based robots covered in baller glower runes ? Yep I 'm okay with that sign me up please . 8 ) Tol'vir . Yesssss these guys are also baller as hell . Hanging out in Uldum being big old cat-taurs looking like they really do deserve to be in charge ? Do want . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ these bird-people when I first saw one in Hellfire Peninsula all those years ago , and I still want to . Because creepy bird-people. 10 ) Aqir . Yes more bugs . I like being a bug ! I want to be a bug leader of a gigantic , terrifying hive-mind that consumes the world , deal with it ! 11 ) Faceless Ones . Tentacles and a complete inability to have pronounceable names add together for a pretty amazing race . <p> Blizz please make Wilford Brimley playable . <p> What about the rest of you guys ? Any races in particular from the WoW setting you want to run around doing dailies as ? <p> Murlocks dude ! And when playing a warrior murlock and using Charge the gargly soundfile should play . Their racial will be a +50% damage to players/npcs below lvl 20 as the buggers are ( or at least were ) deadly to low lvl noobs : S <p> Oh , dear god , High Elves . Helves should have been playable since day one for the Alliance ; I 'd give my left @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Belf , and I 'm only half-kidding here . I like EVERYTHING about the Alliance better than the Horde ... except the Horde has the best elves . And so I skulk around in the stinking pit known as Orgrimmar instead of the gleaming city on a hill that is Stormwind , all so I can play a Quel/Sin'dorei , High/Blood Elf , w/e . <p> The idea of a neutral race , or a race split between the Alliance and Horde , was something I actually thought of a few years ago , as a way of facilitating the introduction of Helves as a playable race AND of reintroducing them back into Quel'Thalas . The way I 'd do it now is to center it around Alleria 's return ( a blue about a month ago or so said Alleria and Turalyon 's story would continue in WoW at some point ) , and the resulting conflict with Sylvanas . However you want to resolve that ( talk about a storyline ripe with possibilities ) , the now-ruling Sin'Dorei uneasily agree to allow the Quel'Dorei to return to their @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from there on in becomes more or less the Switzerland of Azeroth ... though of course , individual elves can continue to fight for whichever side they think would be in Quel'Thalas ' best interests . I think this would be an epic way to go about it as opposed to simply saying " Okay Alliance , you now have Helves , they start in the human starting area " , and making them another orphan race , and as Blizzard has now shown that it 's possible to have a neutral race from standpoints technical , gameplay , and lore , it certainly seems as if they could take it this way if they so desired . If you rly wanted to get crazy ... yeah , why not ? How about this : you can roll either Helf or Belf , but do n't have to make your decision til the end of the starting area , just like the Pandas . Finally , since this 'd be taking a capital city away from the Horde , and they 'd want a new race of their own , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ favorite NPC race after the Helves , and I 'd love to play one . Plus , underwater capital ! Another WoW first ! : D <p> As for my current Survival Hunter Barbie-looking Belf main , what would I do with her ? I do n't think I 'd race-change her , but man , I 'd run to the counter to faction-change her , despite what it would mean as far as my in-game relationships and so forth . That 's how much I simply want Helves in the game , so I can play one but not have to be in the Horde . But ... I have a feeling her twin sister , who never imbibed in the fel magix of the Burning Legion and thus stayed loyal to her kind and the Alliance of Lordaeron , would suddenly feel the need to take up the bow in defense of her nation , her people , and the Alliance . = ) Oh lord , how glorious would WoW be then ? Well , I 'd personally be in heaven anyway . Enjoy . : D @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ how about any race can become neutral ... can not particiapte in BG 's and can only group with other neutral players ... can be ganked by either side or another non-grouped neutral ? <p> Not iron-iron dwarves from Northrend , but just ordinary Dark Iron dwarves , grey skin , red eyes . Does n't even need any real changes , just slightly more pigment options in character creation . <p> My Dwarven DK was Dark Iron . His backstory was that he had been an architect or someone part of a Dark Iron expedition to the Ulduars and such up north ( what ? Brann might be the only one who actually got there , but was he the only dude who 'd wanted to ? ) . So he gets grabbed and LK zapped along the way . The older Ragnaros mind control and newer Lich King mind control kinda cancel out , he rebel with the rest of the rebel DK , and so it goes . Given the choice of joining the Horde and going to kill Ironforgers , or heading into the Alliance , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ! " and hopped over to sign on with the Humans . While his goal was the eventual freedom of his people , he mostly just got drunk in Ironforge , the only Dark Iron at the time who was able to walk around ' openly , '

@@5133441 <h> Jazz Dancer Life <p> Hi , I 'm Kelsey , I 'm 20 years old and from Salt Lake City . This is my first season as a Nu Skin Jazz Dancer and I 'm so excited to blog about my experiences . Follow my Dancer Diary all season to see what me and the other Jazz Dancers are up to ! <p> Imagine a room full of beautiful , talented , energetic girls . Everyone you look at is stunning and so incredibly nice . As you look around the room you see a wall of " hall of fame " jerseys with the last names Stockton , Malone and Dantley . The greatest basketball players to date ! The floor that you are standing on is the floor that the NBA players , that you 've watched every game night , actually practice on ! And on top of that just picture being mixed with nerves so strong and excitement just as equally strong . This is what my experience trying out to be a Nu Skin Jazz dancer was like . <p> The first day of tryouts we had to meet in the morning to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have all week long . After registration we were given time to warm up , get ready and change . At exactly 9 am the judges came in and sat at a table at the front of the gym . We were told that they would be watching us learn our dance , as if this is n't terrifying enough ! Jan Whittaker , our coach , taught us a dance in about 15 minutes after learning it we were given 5 minutes to review and then we immediately started the tryout process . In groups of four in numerical order we performed the dance we had just learned two times in front of the judges . After all the girls had performed , the judges were given an hour to talk over what girls would make the first cut and we were dismissed to go to lunch . I was so nervous that I ate lunch in my car and did n't even leave the Zion 's practice gym parking lot ! All the girls returned 20 minutes early because we were all so nervous ! The judges finally @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who had made it to the next round . They started calling out the numbers and did it in random order . After reading about 50 numbers and mine had n't been called I thought that I had n't made it to the next round . But then the second to last number was 32 , my number ! ! ! I wanted to cry because I felt so relieved ! ! ! <p> The next round would be three days of learning dance routines and a huge focus on physical fitness . We had our trainer , Neil Anderson , come in and do a work out every day . We were judged on how well we could perform and keep up with the workout . I have never felt so sore in my entire life ! I dare you to do burpee 's for 30 minutes straight . Yes , that was one of the workouts ! Neil takes physical fitness to a whole new level ! On the third day of the second round we had our next cut . We performed the dances we had learned @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ after we performed we were told to check the Nu Skin Jazz Dancer website the following day and our numbers would be posted on their if we made it to the final round ! The next day I was checking the website all day and it still had n't been posted and then finally when I checked for the 50 th time that day the list was up ! And there was my number ! Once again I thought I was going to cry because I was so relieved . <p> For the final round we had interviews with the judges before we performed our dances for them for the final time before they decided the team . The interview , to me , was one of the most exciting parts of the try out process because I was able to show my personality and really talk with the judges . A large portion of the interviews was to see if we knew about the Jazz and basketball . We were asked who our favorite player was , mine is Gordon Hayward , and explain how basketball works and the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a part of the Jazz family . After the interviews we performed all the dances we had learned that week in front of the judges in groups of four again . Instead of being nervous this was the first time that week I felt totally at ease and relaxed . I figured I had made it this far , I might as well enjoy the moment ! Doing those dances was total bliss and happiness ! After everyone had performed we were told to call a telephone number in the next two hours and the telephones voicemail would be a list of the girls numbers who made it . Those were the two longest hours of my life ! Finally after I had stared at the clock and the two hours were up I called the number and listened to the voice mail . Number 32 , my number was read ! I started screaming and jumping around my house ! I was so relieved , happy and over whelmed with excitement ! The try out process was so hard but it was one of the most rewarding experiences of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ such an amazing experience . The team is such a talented , happy and energetic group of women ! We have started practices and have learned about eleven dances so far and have been working out with our trainer at every practice . At every practice the veterans try and put into words how much fun the games are and how it is surreal to be out on the floor dancing . I am counting down the days until the first game ! I ca n't wait to perform and go and support our Jazz and cheer them on this season . Because we know that

@@5133541 <h> " We have to tell our stories " : Foreword for " Atheist Voices of Minnesota " <p> August 7 , 2012 at 3:30 am Greta Christina <p> This is the foreword I wrote for the new book , " Atheist Voices of Minnesota : An Anthology of Personal Stories , " with writing by PZ Myers , Stephanie Zvan , Mike Haubrich , Chris Stedman , August Berkshire , and more . The book is currently available on Amazon , Barnes &; Noble , and directly through Minnesota Atheists . It will also be available in eBook format for Kindle and Nook , but is n't yet . UPDATE : The Kindle edition is out ! For event , author , or bookstore orders , email email protected <p> Atheist Voices of Minnesota : Foreword by Greta Christina <p> We have to tell our stories . <p> We owe it to each other -- and we owe it to ourselves . <p> Coming out is the single most powerful political act atheists can take . Coming out is how we combat the myths and misinformation about us that are so widespread . Coming out is how we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , amoral monsters . Coming out is how we show the world that we are their friends , their neighbors , their colleagues , their family . Coming out is how we show the world that we are ethical people , happy people , people with joy and meaning in our lives . <p> And coming out is how we find each other . It 's how we find friends who share our values . It 's how we create communities -- communities that provide emotional support . practical support , guidance in hard times , safety nets in harder times , rituals , rites of passage , avenues for charitable work , avenues for social justice work , avenues for just plain hanging out and having fun . ( You know -- the things that most people get from religion . ) And it 's how we build a movement to make real change in the world ... not just for atheists , but for everyone . <p> What 's more , coming out has a snowball effect . When we come out as atheist , other people will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ next wave of people feel safer . And so on , and so on , and so on . When we tell our stories -- about how we deal with illness and mourn our dead , how we get married and raise our children , how we grow up and grow old , how we love the world and find meaning in a finite life -- people who have no religion and think they 're alone can learn from our experience . And people who are questioning their faith but fear what that might mean can see that it does n't mean disaster , that in fact it can mean joy and integrity and liberation . Telling our stories about our atheism makes the world safer for other atheists ... and for atheists-to-be . <p> But we do n't just owe it to each other to tell our stories . We owe it to ourselves . <p> Coming out as atheist makes our own lives better . Coming out makes it possible to live honestly , and with integrity . Coming out makes it possible to find friends we really @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out means not living in constant fear of discovery , not constantly keeping track of who knows which secrets about us and how they might hurt us if they tell . Coming out means that the people who love us really love us , and not some other person who 's walking around with our face and our name pretending to be us . <p> The LGBT community learned all this decades ago . Consistently , polls show that the single factor most likely to predict whether people support gay rights is whether they know a gay person . ( Or , to be more accurate , whether they know that they know a gay person . ) There 's a reason the LGBT movement has focused so much energy on encouraging people to come out -- and on creating strategies and support systems to help each other come out . Atheists can learn from this example . <p> So as much as we can , whenever we can , we have to tell our stories . <p> Exactly as the writers in this book have done . <p> Atheism @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ celebrities . Atheism is n't Richard Dawkins and Julia Sweeney and Ricky Gervais . These people are important , of course . But atheism is all of us . Building a community , and creating a movement for social change -- that is something that is done on the ground . <p> Social change is a long game . It does n't happen in a day or a week ; it happens over years , and decades . And it is rarely done in big dramatic gestures . It is a million conversations , a million small acts . It is telling our children the truth , as best we know it , when they ask about death . It is staying sober without benefit of a fictional Higher Power . It is being a teacher and teaching an evidence-based history of Christianity . It is refusing to sign a document pledging faith to religious doctrine ... even though that refusal means having to look for a new job . It is getting into debates about religion on Facebook . It is volunteering at Camp Quest , the summer camp @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ local cable access TV and arguing against creationism being taught in public schools . It is hosting a local atheist radio show . It is speaking out for gay rights , for reproductive rights , for organ donation , for an end to cruelty to animals ... and speaking about how our atheism informs these ethical stands . It is joining our local atheist group . It is telling our friends , our bosses , our spouses , our children , our parents , our grandparents , that we do n't believe in God . <p> Exactly as the writers in this book have done . <p> Social change is a long game . But every atheist who tells their story -- as the writers in this book have done -- is part of the game . <p> Again : " Atheist Voices of Minnesota : An Anthology of Personal Stories , " with writing by PZ Myers , Stephanie Zvan , Mike Haubrich , Chris Stedman , August Berkshire , and more , is currently available on Amazon , Barnes &; Noble , and directly through Minnesota Atheists . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Nook , but is n't yet . For event , author , or bookstore orders , email email protected <p> Consistently , polls show that the single factor most likely to predict whether people support gay rights is whether they know a gay person . ( Or , to be more accurate , whether they know that they know a gay persotn . ) <p> ... Voices of Minnesota : An Anthology of Personal Stories:Greta Christina wrote the foreword , which you can read in full here:What 's more , coming out has a snowball effect . When we come out as atheist , other people will ... <h> About the Author <p> Greta Christina has been writing professionally since 1989 , on topics including atheism , sexuality and sex-positivity , LGBT issues , politics , culture , and whatever crosses her mind . She is on the speakers 's bureaus of the Secular Student Alliance and the Center for Inquiry . She is editor of the " Best Erotic Comics " anthology series , and of " Paying For It : A Guide by Sex Workers for Their @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and newspapers , including Ms. , Penthouse , Chicago Sun-Times , On Our Backs , and Skeptical Inquirer , and numerous anthologies , including " Everything You Know About God Is Wrong " and three volumes of " Best American Erotica . " She lives in San Francisco with her wife , Ingrid . You can email her at greta ( at ) gretachristina ( dot ) com , and follow her on Twitter at @GretaChristina . <h> Donate to this blog ! <h> Subscribe to this blog ! <h> I Support Atheism Plus ! <p> Atheists plus we care about social justice . Atheists plus we support women 's rights . Atheists plus we protest racism . Atheists plus we fight homophobia and

@@5133641 <p> Update 9.23.12 : Apple has pulled all of the Genius ads from its website and YouTube channel . Personal postings have been removed as well . Sorry , looks like all evidence has been destroyed . <p> Repeat after me : " The sky is not falling . The sky is not falling . " <p> I know it 's hard to say after viewing the new batch of Mac ads that debuted on the Olympics . I 'm still in a bit of shock myself . <p> Sure , Apple has had a low point or two in its advertising past -- but its low points are usually higher than most advertisers ' high points . <p> This is different . These ads are causing a widespread gagging response , and deservedly so . I honestly ca n't remember a single Apple campaign that 's been received so poorly . <p> This thing is so upsetting , it has me talking to myself : <p> " Ken , you 're missing the obvious . Clearly these ads are targeted at first-timers , not for you . " <p> That 's a seemingly logical defense . It 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you seen that appeal to one target group , but turn off everyone else ? There 's no excuse for a campaign like that . Apple 's momentum is fueled by the enthusiasm of its core customers . The last thing it wants is to win new customers at the cost of looking ridiculous to its enthusiastic supporters . <p> " But how can one campaign appeal to both crowds ? " <p> How soon we forget . If it pleases the court , I present Exhibit A : the now-legendary Mac vs . PC campaign , which delivered 66 fantastic ads over a period of four years . Like the new campaign , Mac vs . PC was also aimed at switchers , but guess what -- it was a massive hit with every level of Mac owner , from novice to pro . Those ads actually galvanized the Mac crowd to heavy up on the preaching . And look at the iPad ads . They 're hugely attractive to people who never got the technology bug . But they 're also alluring to those who have been using @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ done ? To defend the new Mac ads by saying " Hey , they 're not aimed at you " is just a naive view of advertising . <p> " The Apple Genius idea is really rich . What 's your problem ? " <p> Actually , I agree . The " idea " is pretty good . I 'm not convinced it 's worthy of an ongoing campaign , but there is some good comedy in the basic concept . The problem is , a good idea is only half of the winning formula in advertising . The other half is execution -- and that 's where this campaign went south . <p> " Be honest now . That Genius guy is perfectly cast . " <p> You 're kidding , right ? He does an excellent job of fitting the stereotype of an Apple Store Genius , but that 's not necessarily a good thing . These spots are actually cast as if they 're sitcoms -- with exaggerated characters like the father-to-be in Labor Day , or the passenger in Mayday , or the sleezy PC store @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ points through comedy alone , with little sense of authenticity in characters or situations . <p> " I laughed out loud more than once . " <p> I did think that concept of Mayday was funny . But the smiles were mighty hard to come by after that . If you 're going to go the sitcom route -- and that 's a very big " if " -- you 'll need some writers who are up to the task . The script for Basically just makes me squirm . It 's like going to open mike night at the local comedy club . <p> " I did wonder if it was a good idea to make customers seem so clueless . " <p> Therein lies another problem with this campaign . In the effort to show that the Genius is the most helpful guy in the world , Apple has created customers who , shall we say , are on the dim side . In past ads , Apple has shown " ordinary people doing extraordinary things , " simply because Apple products are so easy to use . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , but need a Genius to help . Not exactly flattering . <p> " But the Genius is a great hook . This campaign could go on forever . " <p> Please , kill me now . Nothing would depress me more . With the Mac vs . PC campaign , Apple created fictional characters who together told an engaging story . There seemed to be infinite ways to keep the stories fresh . This is different . The idea of creating a " character " from an Apple employee is ... well .... damn , I ca n't even say this without feeling awful ... it feels like something Best Buy would do . Maybe even Dell . Between the writing , casting , directing and production , this campaign has a very " local " feel to it . It does n't have the feel of quality that has defined previous Apple advertising . <p> " These ads are very unexpected . Is n't that what Apple 's all about ? " <p> It 's great to be unexpected . But if you 're not true to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ The Mac vs . PC campaign was unexpected , but its cleverness was in sync with the Apple brand . Absolutely , these ads are very unexpected for Apple -- just not of the quality we 're used to . <p> " You do n't think these ads are a hoot ? Some of the gags hit my funny bone . " <p> You 're scaring me . Stop talking like that . The point is that Apple has always had an intelligent wit . This campaign , not so much . <p> " My friends think it 's great . " <p> Well , I can only give you my opinion . However , I will add that within 24 hours of these ads hitting the air , I got a load of email from Apple fans who were terribly disappointed . Not one positive comment . What I did get were comments like " I 'm speechless , " " Atrocity " and " Horrifically bad . " Honestly , I 've never seen such a reaction before . So again , if your defense is that people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it . I seriously doubt that Apple wants its loyal customers to feel this kind of embarrassment . <p> " Well , your friends are as deluded as you . " <p> I 'll pretend I did n't hear that . The reactions out in the real world seem to be at least as negative as the ones I 've received . I was struck by the Tweet from Jean Louis -- Gasse , former Apple head of Macintosh , which said " Ouch ! Cringe-inducing new Apple ' Genius ' ads for Mac . " Reader comments on various articles are even more colorfully negative . Apple ca n't be happy about this . <p> " Sorry , but Apple and its agency have a lot of smart people . Surely they know what they 're doing . " <p> I 'm totally with you on that . That 's what so many people find perplexing . How does a campaign like this come out of such a smart and creative group ? One ca n't help but wonder what kind of debate took place leading up to this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ thought this would be a killer campaign . If that 's the case , I hope this experience causes some serious introspection . <p> " Do you think Steve Jobs would have approved these ads ? " <p> Now you 're making me mad . I will never answer a " What would Steve do " question and I hate it when people speculate like that . None of us can possibly know what Steve would do . Steve was a master marketer , but he was also perfectly capable of a lapse in judgment . It 's unfortunate that this campaign is appearing now , nine months after Steve passed away , because the timing only fuels the argument that everything will crumble now that Steve is gone . I do n't buy that . <p> The truth is , advertising is hard . A lot of really talented people at Chiat pour their hearts into creating the ads that we critique . As you know , Apple 's ads succeed far more often than they fail -- just like Apple itself . Every one of us , Steve @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ trite , but it 's how one responds to failure and what one learns from the experience that defines character , whether you 're an individual or a corporation . <p> " So is the sky falling or not ? You 're confusing me . " <p> The fact is , bad ads happen . And sometimes they happen to really good people . The tragedy would be if Apple acted like a politician and dug in its heels for the sake of appearances . I do n't think that will happen . Apple is good at fixing mistakes -- and this is one that could use a major-league fixing . <h> Hello from Ken <p> Who the heck do I think I am ? I 'm a creative director who 's had more than a few adventures in technology marketing , including branding , product naming and strategy . I have a long history with Apple and NeXT -- where I

@@5133741 <h> Search form <h> The Party That Ca n't Shoot Straight <p> By all accounts , this was the Republicans ' election to win : an economy stuck at a level insufficient to generate enough jobs or income gains ; a somewhat disillusioned Democratic base ; and a stunted generation of young adults who supported Barack Obama last time by a margin of 71-29 and are unlikely to do it again . <p> Yet Obama 's lead keeps widening . It 's worth unpacking why . <p> The most obvious reason , of course , is the sheer clumsiness of Mitt Romney , God 's gift to the Democrats . If a computer had been asked to generate a candidate guaranteed to alienate independents and divide his own base , it could not have done better . <p> The far right 's effort to " let Ryan be Ryan " only shines a spotlight on the unpopularity of the GOP 's designs for Medicare and Social Security , while Romney 's serial gaffes lead Senate candidates in swing states to disparage their party 's nominee and right-wing commentators to weep . <p> Another reason is that demographic trends are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ predicted in the Prospect ' s pages by John Judis , Ruy Texeira , and others , and recently confirmed in new studies . As Tom Edsall recently wrote in The New York Times , these trends have moved Pennsylvania solidly into the Democratic camp , to the point where the Romney campaign has pulled ads , essentially writing off the state ( voter suppression and all ) . <p> Republican Senator Lindsey Graham , in a remarkably candid impromptu chat with a few reporters , bitterly blamed the GOP ticket 's woes on shifting demographics . <p> " If we lose this election , performance as president does n't matter like it used to , " Graham said in a discussion with The Huffington Post and several other reporters outside the Senate chamber last week . <p> " There 's a reason no president has ever been reelected with an economy like this , " Graham said . " It would tell me that it 's more of a demographic race for president than it is a performance-based race . And that may be where we 're at as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ party , and we just do n't know it . " <p> Graham , who said earlier that the country was n't " generating enough angry , white guys " to keep the GOP in business , was referring to the growing trend of Republicans depending on white voters to win elections . <p> Even so , a decent candidate might have done far better against Obama . What 's remarkable is that a large Republican field was incapable of generating such a candidate . It 's instructive to ask : Was this outcome more random luck for the Democrats , or does it say something deeply structural about the Republicans ? Is a true conservative , by definition , a hapless candidate because reality is on the progressive side and the far right just attracts goofballs ? <p> That 's comforting to believe , but too facile . Surely a candidate like Jeb Bush -- conservative enough for the Tea Party base , able to masquerade as a moderate , and competent at politics -- could have done much better against Obama and even might have defeated him . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ time is no charm ) , and Jeb sat this one out . <p> But something deeper is at work . If Romney does lose , it 's inconceivable that Republicans will decide they were too right-wing for the country . Rather , they will conclude that their standard-bearer was both too moderate and too incompetent . The Republicans will be even further in the grip of the far right for a generation to come -- because there are no old-fashioned moderate Republicans left to take their party back , and at the base , right-wing populism is stronger than ever among maybe 40 percent of the voters . <p> Electorally , that should bode well for the Democrats . But what kind of Democrats ? At the presidential level , the party keeps drifting center-right . That 's annoying at the level of principle ; as a matter of sheer pragmatism , center-right is n't solving dire national problems such as an eroding middle class , a parasitic financial system , and a ruined generation of young adults , not to mention global climate change . <p> Going forward @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Party that has partly succeeded in so wrecking government that voters are not sure whether to trust it and a Democratic presidential party that seems incapable of seizing transforming moments and solving deep-seated ills . This will change for the better only when Democrats manage to nominate a compelling progressive . <p> That 's a close question . Obamacare does n't stop the spiral of increasing healthcare costs because it keeps the same private players , insurance of healthcare industries in the driver 's seat . The crisis is still mounting . On the other hand Obama recognized the issue and addressed it . A " D " for results a " C " for effort <p> An intriguing article , and I agree with you argument that a progressive candidate is needed to fix the problems you 've listed . But let 's be honest , given the type of government the US has , we need more than just a progressive candidate . We need a progressive with 60+ Democrat senators and 220+ Democrat representatives . How is that going to happen ? <p> One way it could @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they are finally repudiated by the voting public . That could happen either after they take the country down in a horrible recession ( like 2008 , but there would have to be a Republican president ) . Or it could happen if the public decides that the Republican congress members are obstructing needed government . This is a tougher case to prove , but Obama is starting to already lay the groundwork for this charge ( as he argues changing government from the outside ) . <p> Right now I like the prospects of the Republicans turning right , if only in the outside chance of seeing the right finally repudiated . <p> If the GOP were what the liberal media says they are they would n't be a threat to Obama . Everything I see these days seems to be anti-Romney . So much for fair and balanced coverage . <p> The 47% remark was taken out of context . Mother Jones has admitted that they left out a couple minutes of tape right after the 47% part and they wo n't post the whole thing even though @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by our liberal media , surprise , surprise . Do n't trust the media alone , folks . How many anti-Obama headlines have you seen compared to anti-Romney ones ? The answer does n't say as much about the two men as it does about the bias of those who write about them . <p> Read both sides for balanced coverage because it does n't exist in one place and both sides leave stuff out . How can you make an informed opinion if you consider only one point of view ? You ca n't . Thanks for listening . <p> A two minute gap when the video camera cut out of a recording of an hour or so is not " taken out of context " . What do you think Romney said in the gap ? " If I wanted to destroy my campaign I would say- " , or " Everything I have said in the past half an hour and everything in the next half an hour is nonsense , so eat your $50,000 with of dinner and I will give you two minuted on what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ material . Ignore before and after , eh ? " <p> If you want pro-Romney coverage , try reading some right-wing websites ; Fox News . Taken out of context ? You are deluded . If they were taken out of context why did he admit that they were " inelegant . " Taken out of context , what a joke . As much as you would have it the other way , he said exactly what he said . Nothing was left out of the video , it was 100% pure Mitt Romney , an arrogant and incompetent fool . <p> " ' There 's a reason no president has ever been reelected with an economy like this , ' Graham said . " Aside from demographics , this is the Republicans ' second problem . They believe the MSM , which keeps up a steady drumbeat of " terrible economy . " But the economy is NOT terrible . Yes , the unemployment numbers are terrible . And the monthly job creation numbers are not great . But the rest of the economy is and has been recovering @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . But those with jobs are experiencing a static or up-treading economy . The stock markets are approaching record territory ( thus , 401(k)s--into which many workers have been forced--are growing ) , corporations have lots of cash on hand , manufacturing is slowly increasing , interest and mortgage rates are low , and inflation is low . Only the job indicators are doing poorly , and as we all know , they are lagging indicators . Demand remains strong , and sooner or later , the job indicators are going to catch up . Bottom line : the terrible economy just is n't quite that terrible . <p> Except for unemployment increasing in 26 states , millions of people giving up looking for work which is artificially lowering the unemployment rate , the median household income going down , record numbers of people on disability and food stamps , a record 15% of Americans in poverty , another trillion added to the debt , gas prices at $4 a gallon , and GDP decreasing when adjusted for inflation . <p> Definitely some bright spots there . <p> As for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ money to play with thanks to QE 2 and 3 , stock prices are going to go up . A high DJIA does not indicate a healthy economy . <p> Jobs may be a lagging indicator , but is n't three years a long lag . I notice you did n't mention the equity loss in housing , and although it may have bottomed out , it shows no signs of improving . Banks wo n't lend and business is hanging on to cash reserves because they are afraid of the economies future . At the current rate we will have a $24T in debt by 2016 . Also by 2016 92% of our GDP will go to entitlements and paying interest on our debt . Between 2014 and 2106 most of Obamacare taxes will kick in . Our credit rating will probably drop two times , particularly if we continue with no budget . An unending QE means our money will be worth less and less resulting in high inflation . Government will get bigger , further draining the economy . Taxes will increase on job creators . So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ok now , how does it project over the next four years ? <p> Not to like for you is that Mr Obama is going to win by a street , since the polls are n't skewed . And you actually want to see the economy in a bad state . to improve your chances next time ? Typical Republican ? <p> If the Democrats do regain a super-majority I hope they go nuclear on the Republicans . Repeal Obamacare and do the right thing : Create single-payer government option which would force private insurers to be honest or go out of business . Liberalise immigration to a great degree , open up ESL schools and cooperative farms for immigrants . Forge close ties with the Southern hemisphere so that we stand as equals . Become the cornucopia of the planet ! <p> We were the cornucopia of the planet . The democrats started messing that up under Clinton . The whole idea of the U.S. being the world leader , our children having a better future , etc. etc. will be forever gone if Obama is re-elected . <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ problems such as an eroding middle class , a parasitic financial system , and a ruined generation of young adults , not to mention global climate change " , could be solved by moving so far to the left that government controls everything . Is there historically or currently anywhere in the world that concept is working very well . Quite the opposite , these problems are the direct result of us moving to far to the left . It started with Wilson then FDR , LBJ , Nixon , then Clinton , and now Obama made it worse . Who we elect wo n't make it immediately better , but it will determine how bad this mess gets and how long we stay in it . <p> I suppose that you could start by examining China ' s rise over the past fifteen years ... granted that they are about where we were in the late 1940 's in a lot of areas of development , but their rise is meteoric , it will be interesting to say the least in watching their development over the next years as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , etc . ) The fact is - they are growing their middle class , our rightward policies have been destroying ours for thirty years with devastating effect . This does not seem to be a trend to continue to emulate . So , I can not sign on to your continuation of your move to the right as an answer . Historically . <p> Kuttner : Not to pick on you specifically , but why do n't you liberals EVER write articles describing why America should elect your man o'bama ? What has he done that is actually good for America ? Why should we believe this year 's promises when he broke ALL of the ones he made last time around ? That sort of thing . Is it just too easy to stick with the old class-race warfare model ? To keep making up these " widening " polls showing 2 or 3 point leads ( when o'bama if he were even half a president should be 20 points ahead ) ? Much easier to destroy the opponent than to deserve re-election . Let me tell you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , for one , will vote for whoever is running against o'bama because I - LITERALLY - do not think America will ever recover from four more years of thug rule . <p> 1 : Because the economy fell apart under a Republican president and after a decade which saw Republicans in control of congress far more often than Democrats ? <p> 2 : Because historically , Republicans have presided over worse economies and ballooning deficits , while Democratic presidents have presided over strong economies and shrinking deficits ? <p> 3 : Perhaps it is because Republicans start wars , fail to finish them , and put the cost on the credit card , while Democrats finish the wars and get stuck cleaning up the mess . Or perhaps people LIKE to be somewhat respected by foreign nations , rather than loathed ? <p> 4 : Perhaps it is because the Republican party has moved far to the right , has completely re-defined the term obstructionism , and is now chock full of crazies , liars , cheats , and bigots ? <p> 5 : Perhaps it is because Republicans @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the favor , simply because they would rather spite the president than have him look bi-partisan ? <p> 6 : Perhaps it is because the Republican agenda is anti-science and full of lies , distortions , and proud ignorance ? <p> I do n't know how anyone could vote for the modern Republican party nowadays . Whatever sanity they had back in the Reagan era was long ago ceded to centrist Democrats . <p> Ogemaniac has been on a steady diet of what ever the dems are serving up I 'm concerned for his or her mental health . Romney will make a great president and Obama clearly has done a poor job . This election is not complicated people . Clint is right , we 've got to let him go . <p> There are a bazillion examples of Obama 's real failures &; incompetence . Yet , apparatchiks hope they can paint Romney with a description that aptly fits Obama by just saying it &; giving a few lame examples . <p> But Romney is just a few points behind in the ( Dem manipulated ? ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the United States . That coupled with his life 's history paints a portrait of an amazingly competent man of extraordinary accomplishment . <p> Listen up all ye who think Robert is a person that will tell you the truth . <p> There are two groups of journalists , those that tell you what they think and believe , and those that tell what they want you to believe . Generally , the first group describes conservatives , and the second group describes liberal progressives . <p> The fundamental difference is philosophical . A natural fit for Liberals is a Machiavellian world view - that is , since they are certain that they are smarter than you , it is moral to say and do anything to manipulate you to vote the way they want you to vote . Conservatives adhere to the belief that all men are created equal - seeing you as equals and respecting your liberty to think for yourself . <p> I believe Kuttner can be whatever he wants to be . I just want everybody to understand each other . <p> So liberals are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that beyond doubt Saddam had WMDs ? If liberals do not believe all men are created equal why did they work so hard to pass the various civil rights acts in the ' 60s ? And why are they working for gay rights now ? Is it liberals or conservatives that support the ACLU and its work to protect the First Amendment and free speech ? <p> Just because liberals understand basic science and things like evolution and global warming does not necessarily make us smarter . But , at least , it does make conservatives more ignorant . <p> What has worked best for this country in the past is a combination of relatively fiscal conservatism combined with reasonable social progressivism . When the 2 are at odds the best attempt possible should be made to implement the social program . <p> Now , to be clear , I am talking about real fiscal conservatism where the the budget deficit is the the primary concern--not low taxes bringing low unsustainable revenue . Controlling the deficit is done through judicious spending and tax policies that provide sufficient tax revenue without @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ building and growing of small businesses This is what it was like under Bill Clinton . Even Ronald Reagan was aware of the connection between the deficit and growth and therefore raised taxes over and over once the deficit was getting out of hand . <p> Unfortunately , what followed Clinton was the bizarro world of republican free spending on everything but the country 's social well being without thought for the deficit while taking steps to reduce tax revenue at the same time . <p> These were the exact opposite of the policies that brought our country relatively consistent growth since the end of WW 2 . <p> People who want a resurrection of civil rights do not have to vote for either Too-Big party . <p> It would be great to have a debate with non-bank-owned candidates , say Gary Johnson and Jill Stein . <p> I assume these new two would not ask for all the special clauses that the opera stars on transmit-only want , so we could hear some substantive issues aired . Besides , I want to see a woman in a debate . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . <h> About the Author <p> Robert Kuttner is co-founder and co-editor of The American Prospect , as well as a distinguished senior fellow of the think tank Demos . He was a longtime columnist for Business Week and continues to write columns in The Boston Globe . He

@@5133841 <h> 09 Nov 2012 -- Henning <p> Hew is the new collaborative project between Rachel Evans aka Motion Sickness Of Time Travel and Nevada City , California-based visual artist Juli Toro ( who not only did the artwork on the left but also the cover art for MSOTT 's self-titled LP on Spectrum Spools earlier this year ) . The two have just readied their first cassette named Domoboi , a four-track effort that 's not too far away from Evans ' ambient-leaning solo ventures . We 're happy to premiere the video for one of the tracks off the tape , " In the Center of a Room " , made by Rachel Evans herself . As usual with her work , sound and vision align perfectly , the restrained pictures creating a dense , absorbing atmosphere

@@5133941 <p> Hiring a PR firm to get a head coach fired for not playing your son does not preclude one from calling a college football game , nor does it preclude one from voting as a member of the media . Craig James casts an AP ballot . His Top 25 this past week was rather interesting . Here are some of the highlights . <p> Boise State is No. 24 . Let me repeat that . Boise State is No. 24 . The Broncos are 10-1 with a one-point loss to TCU . They have n't played the toughest schedule , but a tougher one statistically than Virginia Tech ( James -- 4 ) , Houston ( James -- 5 ) , Michigan State ( James -12 ) and Wisconsin ( James -- 13 ) . <p> Boise State beat James ' 11th ranked team , Georgia , by two touchdowns in a de facto road game . They have fewer losses . Yet , somehow , they are ranked 13 places lower . They are ranked behind five-loss Missouri and four-loss Texas . Boise at 10-1 against the 51st ranked schedule is No. 24 . Houston at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> Seriously , did Chris Petersen not answer his text messages ? Was he a little curt during a stop and chat in the gym ? We 'll assume that 's not an optimistic sign for Kellen Moore and Doug Martin 's chances of winning the Pony Express Award . <p> Arkansas is No. 3 . The Razorbacks are 10-2 . They have only lost to LSU and Alabama . Fine . They were also clearly outclassed in both games . What is their best win ? South Carolina ? A comeback against 6-6 Texas A &M?; <p> Oklahoma is No. 17 . Kansas State is No. 8 . Oklahoma is No. 17 . Oklahoma has the same number of losses as the Wildcats . Oklahoma beat them by 41 points in Manhattan ! There is no plausible argument for the Wildcats being a better team , let alone a demonstrably better one . That is insane . <p> Stanford is No. 10 . I can see not being sold on Stanford . How are they ranked below No. 7 USC when Stanford beat USC and has fewer losses ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ games that also counted , they scraped by against Minnesota and Utah and lost by three touchdowns against Arizona State , who just had their coach fired . <p> Clemson is Unranked . I do n't think Clemson is that good . That said , Clemson is 9-3 and beat James No. 4 team , Virginia Tech , by 20 in Blacksburg . They beat Florida State ( James -25 ) and have a better record against a tougher schedule . <p> Not sure what Craig James ' justification for these votes would be . I am sure said justification would be accompanied by his smarmy politician smile . James is both the lead bad voter ( 885 ) and the lead good voter ( 168 ) on PollSpeak.com this week . That poor Spaeth intern needs to pick up his pace . <p> I just do n't get how someone could say Boise is n't a top-15 team at the absolute worst . I 'd have them in the top-10 personally , though I will say that they beat a UGA team that is so much different now . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ James . He is the epitome of the rich daddy who does n't give a fuck what happens to anyone as long their kid does n't have to sweat or get a little dirty . And he looks like a every southern racist guy from every movie ever . <p> Thats the 12th best team according to these Sagarian rankings . Anyone else find it strange that duffy calls the BCS all kinds of nasty names yet loves pointing to Sagarians garbage numbers to make ridiculous claims . <p> Thats the 12th best team according to these Sagarian rankings . Anyone else find it strange that duffy calls the BCS all kinds of nasty names yet loves pointing to Sagarians garbage numbers to make ridiculous claims . <p> It is pretty funny . Those ratings are garbage . Imagine if Craig James had Missouri at 18 . Duffy would be pissed . <p> Thats the 12th best team according to these Sagarian rankings . Anyone else find it strange that duffy calls the BCS all kinds of nasty names yet loves pointing to Sagarians garbage numbers to make ridiculous claims @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Sagarian rankings . Anyone else find it strange that duffy calls the BCS all kinds of nasty names yet loves pointing to Sagarians garbage numbers to make ridiculous claims . <p> It is pretty funny . Those ratings are garbage . Imagine if Craig James had Missouri at 18 . Duffy would be pissed . <p> What ratings would you prefer I used ? BCS ? Numbers pulled out of my ass ? <p> Fuck Craig James . He is the epitome of the rich daddy who does n't give a fuck what happens to anyone as long their kid does n't have to sweat or get a little dirty . And he looks like a every southern racist guy from every movie ever . <p> What ratings would you prefer I used ? BCS ? Numbers pulled out of my ass ? <p> Not those as they 're garbage . If there are n't any you like , come up with a metric that you do like . You 've got the time , right ? But it 's funny that you rail the computers in the BCS and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Clemson 28th at 9-3 . <p> Not those as they 're garbage . If there are n't any you like , come up with a metric that you do like . You 've got the time , right ? But it 's funny that you rail the computers in the BCS and then praise the ratings that have Missouri 18th at 7-5 and Clemson 28th at 9-3 . <p> But , if I 'm going to use the ratings that meet my own subjective judgements ... those are n't objective ratings . <p> I use the Sagarin w/MOV mostly for strength of schedule . I like Simple Rating System or FEI for comparing teams . <p> Every computerized system has Texas A &M; ranked highly , because they had one of the country 's toughest schedules . They had to play Oklahoma State , Oklahoma , Arkansas , Kansas State , Baylor .... then teams like Missouri , Texas ... 8/12 opponents are going to bowl games 4 in the Top 15 . <p> What that says is if the played say Florida , Vanderbilt , Tennessee , Mississippi @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ been 9-3 or 10-2 . <p> Every computerized system has Texas A &M; ranked highly , because they had one of the country 's toughest schedules . They had to play Oklahoma State , Oklahoma , Arkansas , Kansas State , Baylor .... then teams like Missouri , Texas ... 8/12 opponents are going to bowl games 4 in the Top 15 . <p> But not beating any of those teams should n't help them . That 's my problem . <p> Every computerized system has Texas A &M; ranked highly , because they had one of the country 's toughest schedules . They had to play Oklahoma State , Oklahoma , Arkansas , Kansas State , Baylor .... then teams like Missouri , Texas ... 8/12 opponents are going to bowl games 4 in the Top 15 . <p> What that says is if the played say Florida , Vanderbilt , Tennessee , Mississippi State , Ole Miss , Auburn ... they might have been 9-3 or 10-2 . <p> What ? No . Not at all . In fact only 3 of the polls even have them ranked @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at 23 ... <p> Every computerized system has Texas A &M; ranked highly , because they had one of the country 's toughest schedules . They had to play Oklahoma State , Oklahoma , Arkansas , Kansas State , Baylor .... then teams like Missouri , Texas ... 8/12 opponents are going to bowl games 4 in the Top 15 . <p> What that says is if the played say Florida , Vanderbilt , Tennessee , Mississippi State , Ole Miss , Auburn ... they might have been 9-3 or 10-2 . <p> What ? No . Not at all . In fact only 3 of the polls even have them ranked . One at 15 . One at 18 . One at 23 ... <p> They have n't played the toughest schedule , but a tougher one statistically than Virginia Tech ( James -- 4 ) <p> This is why I give LSU a pass if they lose to UGA ( or really Alabama ) . They at least played a tough schedule . I 'd bet @WVU and vs . Oregon is the best top two non-conf wins @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ taking into account that WVU was supposed to be a lot better when they were scheduled ) . <p> Craig James is that guy in the locker room who walks out of the shower without a towel , then walks straight towards the sink , and brushes his teeth . Spits onto the floor drain and then tries to play grab ass <p> Arkansas is No. 3 . The Razorbacks are 10-2 . They have only lost to LSU and Alabama . Fine . They were also clearly outclassed in both games . What is their best win ? South Carolina ? A comeback against 6-6 Texas A &M?; <p> Oklahoma is No. 17 . Kansas State is No. 8 . Oklahoma is No. 17 . Oklahoma has the same number of losses as the Wildcats . Oklahoma beat them by 41 points in Manhattan ! There is no plausible argument for the Wildcats being a better team , let alone a demonstrably better one . That is insane . <p> Does n't this all reek of setting up the LSU-Bama rematch ? The biggest threat to that would be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ polls , or beating a high-ranked ( Oklahoma ) team . <p> craig james waits for a par 5 green to clear from 320 out after finding his 180 yard drive . <p> Craig James crouches behind a 12 ft putt and cups his hands over his eyes for 2 minutes , reading the break . Finally , he stands over the ball and gently whispers " putt to the picture " before making his stroke . Incidentally , the ball races 10 feet by the hole , starting the process anew . <p> Craig James crouches behind a 12 ft putt and cups his hands over his eyes for 2 minutes , reading the break . Finally , he stands over the ball and gently whispers " putt to the picture " before making his stroke . Incidentally , the ball races 10 feet by the hole , starting the process anew . <p> sounds like craig james understands the importance of a pre-shot routine . <p> But anyway , OSU has much better wins than Alabama . And Alabama lost at home . <p> I agree . OKST @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but I think Bama is the better team . If OKST gets in than so be it . I would hope no one outside of Bama would complain about it . I know LSU folks would be thrilled , as the thought of playing OKST would get dicks fully erect in Baton Rouge . LSU or Bama would be 10 point favorites over the Pokes in NO . <p> OKST is more deserving of a shot at the title , but I think Bama is the better team . <p> I am all aboard this train . If Alabama could play anyone other than LSU , I 'd put them in no problem . But with an already fucked system I want a true national champion . Alabama winning would n't give us that , IMO . <p> Craig James has the honor on the second tee on a packed Saturday afternoon and wants to tell you a 5 minute story about his awesome Friday . <p> Craig James just put his 7 iron away . The third leaf from the left on the second tree from the right at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ green fluttered . He 's opted for a choked 6 iron . Oops ... it 's in the water . <p> Craig James just put his 7 iron away . The third leaf from the left on the second tree from the right at a 46* angle from the 2 o'clock position on the green fluttered . He 's opted for a choked 6 iron . Oops ... it 's in the water . <p> But anyway , OSU has much better wins than Alabama . And Alabama lost at home . <p> I agree . OKST is more deserving of a shot at the title , but I think Bama is the better team . If OKST gets in than so be it . I would hope no one outside of Bama would complain about it . I know LSU folks would be thrilled , as the thought of playing OKST would get dicks fully erect in Baton Rouge . LSU or Bama would be 10 point favorites over the Pokes in NO . <p> No way . They are favored by 10.5 . Lines tend to come within @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ SEC bump and you are looking at more than 4 but less than 7 . <p> Craig James does not mark anything at his ' garage sales ' with a price . When someone asks him how much for an item . He simply responds that its not for sale , everything is free , this is a charity give away . <p> Craig James is jealous of BSU because they have achieved everything he failed to do at SMU . Oh wait , that 's serious . Craig James was responsible for Omar Epps replacing Wesley Snipes in Major League II . <p> Craig James tried to invent the internet , but Al Gore beat him to it . Later , after gleaning some key information from Senator Ted Stevens , James tried again , and purchased a series of tubes online . He made a couple of mathematical errors , and ended up forming those tubes into a dump truck , which the internet decidedly is n't . So he gave the truck to his precious , precious son to take to college . And Mike Leach took @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in 5 Americans are unable to find the USA on a map : " Personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because , uh , some ... people out there in our nation do n't have maps and uh , I believe that our , ah , education like such as in South Africa , and , uh , the Iraq , everywhere like such as , and I believe that they should , uh , our education over here in the U.S. should help the U.S. , or should help South Africa , it should help the Iraq and the Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future , for . " <p> Craig James is on the 1st tee with the rest of his foursome on a day when the course is uncrowded . He sees that you were going to play alone , but does n't let you tee off before his foresome , even though one guy in his group is at the snack bar buying a Heineken . <p> Its important to remember a few things about James @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ What is James ' stance on Joe Paterno and should Joe have done more ? What is James ' stance on Eric Dickerson and should James have done more to notify the NCAA that Dickerson was getting paid by SMU ? <p> I think James suffers from little man syndrome . James never made it big in the NFL and in fact James , Dickerson and SMU could not even beat BYU in the 1980 Holiday Bowl as they gave away 21 points in the final 3 minutes of the game allowing BYU a 1 point victory . <p> Dickerson went on to a great NFL career . Jim McMahon from BYU also went on to a great NFL career . Kyle Whittingham of BYU is now head coach at Utah . James ? James is just a lowly ESPN analyst . I think he is an underachiever and thus talks incessantly promoting his views and trying to expound great knowledge . Lets face it that if he was that intelligent or talented his career would have been more than it was . Talking about it now is all he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't want anyone else to get theirs either . He chooses any angle to support his view even if the result is contradictory logic supporting one team one way and another team in the exact opposite manner . <p> Think about it Chad . James . Pollack . Palmer . McMahon . Dickerson . Montana . Young . As you say each name where do you know them from ? Some you equate directly with great football . Some you only know from ESPN and you have to go search out their football past . <p> One last thing . Coach Mike Leach locked Craig James ' son in a dark closet . The fruit does n't fall far from the tree . Tell James to stick that in his pipe and smoke it . <p> Craig James waffles on his decision to join your fantasy league until the last minute before saying " yes . " Then does n't pay the $20 entry fee for 12 weeks . When you ask him for a check , he says , " Do you have Pay Pal ? " <p> Craig @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ replica of his SMU #32 jersey . He then insists letting the dog do whatever he wants , including shitting on the floor , taking up the whole couch , and turning over the trash can for food scraps . <p> Craig James has deep burn ! Oh , it 's so deep ! Oh , Craig James can barely lift his right arm ' cause Craig James did so many arm curls . Craig James do n't know if you heard him counting , Craig James did over a thousand . You have your ubulus muscle which connects to the upper dorcinus . It 's boring but it 's Craig James ' life , <p> craig james is absolutely certain BallzDeep will be here imminently to claim that this thread does n't count , and that some stupid " during a basketball " thread is still the longest , despite being no better than 4th longest . <p> craig james is absolutely certain BallzDeep will be here imminently to claim that this thread does n't count , and that some stupid " during a basketball " thread is still @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . <p> Craig James would like you to read a pamphlet and go to a day long conference with him about possibly buying time together in a condo in Long Beach . Seems like a good deal and you get a waffle iron just for showing up . <p> craig james is absolutely certain BallzDeep will be here imminently to claim that this thread does n't count , and that some stupid " during a basketball " thread is still the longest , despite being no better than 4th longest . <p> Oh , no . This thread definitely counts . Thought it does deserve some kind of asterisk . And it 's been a while since I 've been called BallzDeep . <p> craig james watched Alien Autopsy , and after it was over told several people he would have done a better job on the autopsy . He told several others he was a more worthy specimen for study than a dumb alien . <p> If you were n't around then , I really ca n't describe the Stephen King fatigue that existed in the world . Everybody @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ made , like one every six months . And believe it or not , Gump was a special effects masterpiece , at the time . <p> I do n't take it personal . Let me just say that if Craig James had grown up in suburban Washington in the 80s he would probably write things like this about his sports memories : My favorite baseball team sucked during my childhood ( Yankees ) . My favorite basketball team was awesome ( Lakers ) , so the memories were many . The Jets were mostly awful , and I was too young to really enjoy the 1986 playoff season . <p> I have seen multiple examples of other people repeating other jokes and comments from earlier in the thread but can not find any example of when I repeated a comment . So in conclusion , fuck you sportsgal you miserable cunt . <p> I remember Jim Joyce . I do n't really know why you 'd remember it vividly though since you 're not a Tigers fan . <p> It 's an old meme . I claimed to remember Super @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And while I do remember watching the 49ers beat the Bengals , I may have over-spoke my recollections . Though I do clearly remember learning the word ' horse-shit ' during that game . <p> I think it 'll end when that one guy that always shows up way after a thread has died comments on it . Maybe he already has . I always forget his name . I 've been told recently and even seen him comment in the last two weeks . But that is when it will be time to re-post the link to Boyz II Men . Until then , Bueller , Craig James would like to remind you in the most prickish way possible that you are not " in on this thread " until you 've made an honest to god attempt at a Craig James joke <p> Craig James pulls out from a complete stop in the left lane to cut you off in the right lane at a red light . Just so he can be the first car at the light , while also keeping you and the next @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> Craig-James-o-sexual : People through their awful personalities or homeliness who make a conscious decision to become bisexual , thereby doubling potential sexual partners yet still remain unfuckable to everyone . <p> As used in the sentence : After all the guys rejected Craig James advances as a craig-james-o-sexual the lowest point was when the 5 dead hookers wanted nothing to do with the fugly douchebag bastard <p> Craig James controls the British Crown Craig James keeps the metric system down Fuck him ! Fuck him ! Craig James leaves Atlantis off the maps Craig James keeps the Martians under wraps Fuck him ! Fuck him ! Craig James holds back the electric car Craig James makes Steve Gutenberg a star ! Fuck him ! Fuck him ! Craig James robs cavefish of their sight Craig James rigs every Oscar night Fuck him ! Fuck him ! Fuuuuuuck Hiiiimmmmmmmmmm ! <p> Craig James just happens to randomly like all the sports teams which won titles when he was growing up . <p> Except for in baseball where his local team went from being world champs to being the worst team @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ his childhood . Baseball sucks anyway , right Craig James ? I mean the ratings are horrible . <p> Craig James hangs a Van Gogh print and a Pollock print in his office and tries to pass them off as originals . He then starts wearing tweed jackets with leather patches on the elbows and starts pronouncing it " eye-ther " and " nye-ther " . <p> Craig James is not allowed within 50 yards of a Toys ' R Us . When you bring this us , he starts muttering under his breath about how " With a neck like that , you 'd think a giraffe would have a better gag reflex . " <p> Craig James knows that the cheerleader you 're sitting next to is interested in you , so he tries to bring up the time that you drunkenly passed out and pissed yourself as many times as possible over the course of the night . Then he takes out his phone and tries to sit in between the two of you so that he can show her the pictures . <p> Craig James tells @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in truth has never gotten past the second fight with Bald Bull and has only fought Tyson because he scribbled 007-373-5963 on the back of his controller way back in 1988 . <p> Craig James keeps old opera tickets in his pockets at all times so that he can ' accidentslly ' pull then out when he is ostensibly getting his keys . If no one says anything about them , he loudly informs everyone that he has a season subscription ..... by the motherfuckin orchestra . <p> Craig James contends that the drive between San Antonio and El Paso ai n't got nothin ' on the drive between Dallas and Amarillo when it comes to flat and featureless . In this case , Craig James might be correct . <p> Craig James says he once spent Christmas with Robert Earl Keen and his family , and nobody got drunk or went to the Quik-Pak for some Marlboro Lights . And the Mexican boyfriend refused to sing " Feliz Navidad , " even though Craig asked him very politely , time and again . <p> Craig James once went to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fat guy with a beard came out and just noodled on a piano for a while , so he left . But he got to see Maria Bamford in that Target commercial later , so it was okay . <p> Craig James , let 's face it . And I 'm not being funny . I mean no disrespect , but you 're a cunt . You 're a cunt now , and you 've always been a cunt . And the only thing that 's going to change is that you 're going to be an even bigger cunt . Maybe have some more cunt kids . <p> Craig James , let 's face it . And I 'm not being funny . I mean no disrespect , but you 're a cunt . You 're a cunt now , and you 've always been a cunt . And the only thing that 's going to change is that you 're going to be an even bigger cunt . Maybe have some more cunt kids . <p> Craig James ( wave at the cunt ) just tried to Google @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ watching himself in 1 man 1 cup again as mentioned in comment 2459 of the definitive online guide to Craig James . <p> Craig James wants TBL commenters to know that whoever hits 3,000 in this thread will receive a hearty handshake and an autosigned copy of Game Day : A Rollicking Journey to the Heart of College Football . <p> i love t-shirts . two of my favorites are nearing the end . my NFL on TNT shirt I won in a radio contest , and my Pirate Radio 96.3FM ( or something ) , Less Music by Dead Guys that i bought in the tattoo parlor i got my only tattoo in , on venice beach , 1992 <p> ballz , one of the great skills of a leader is knowing how and when to delegate <p> please handle this t-shirt project for us , and keep us in the loop <p> We 're gon na need at least 20 people for my dad to even bother making the screen . And he 'll still charge me . Just at a discount . Oh yea ! And nobody @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ shirt means . But I 'll do it . If we can get enough people to do it . <p> craig james wants to have the checkout person look through the weekly flyer to check for sales prices and start/end dates , then void some things because they were n't on sale , then pays with a check all while you do your best to not huff and motherfucking puff behind them because you picked that lane because she was nearly all checked out <p> My dad gave me 2 Led Zeppelin shirts and 2 Pink Floyd shirts that are totally bootlegged and illegal for Christmas a couple years ago ( do n't tell anyone ) . He just used old album art . I 'm sure he can re-create whatever your shirts are . <p> When Hollywood gets around to making a film version of Game Day : A Rollicking Journey to the Heart of College Football , Craig James is hoping that Norm MacDonald will be considered for the role of Craig James . <p> I remember one time Craig James took his family to Sea World . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ! So James yells , " I 'm Craig James and no one gets me wet ! " So he climbs into the tank , grabs Shamu and throws the whale into the audience , splashes him and yells , " How do you like it ? ! " And then damn if James did n't step in there and finish the show ! <p> Craig James keeps his stereo at highest possible volume and the heater on high when he drops his car off at a valet stand . When he picks it up later and the valet has lowered the volume and turned off the heater , he throws a hissy fit and threatens to sue . <p> Once Craig James found out that you go to the gym , he constantly says that you should wear more form fitting shirts , makes comments that he wants to see your arms sometime , and that he should work out with you . <p> Craig James remains profoundly upset with his Uncle Jimmy , who poured millions of dollars propping up inept radio station WNYX in Noo Yawk but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ covering up hooker slayings back in Texas . <p> When Craig James ' kids ask why they never go anywhere for vacation , he tells them they they went to Paris when they were young , but all their luggage got stolen , and that 's why they do n't have any pictures . <p> Craig James has some new information about Colt McCoy 's concussion . McCoy was placed in an electrical closet between getting knocked out of the game and being re-inserted ( James ' word ) into the contest <p> Craig James used to return every tape to Blockbuster with a handwritten note inside stating that not only did he not rewind , but he owns one of those tape rewinding machines , and STILL did n't do it . He also enclosed a picture of his bare ass and wrote on it " smooches if you 're pissed " . <p> Craig James thinks Vic Colfari is a completely reasonable commenter and not at all trying to hide a horrid case of smalldickitis . Craig James also thinks that TBL was right to ban Taguchi and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ banned . <p> Craig James knows the dialogue to " Birth Of A Nation " -- even though it 's in subtitles . And if you see it with him ( which is impossible not to because its on loop at his house ) he will speak the lines to you <p> Craig James wants you to understand exactly what it is that makes Birth of a Nation a great film and here 's a tip for you : it ai n't all that fancy-pants editing and camera-masking bullshit they teach kids in film school . It 's a great story with a great message . <p> Craig James wants to hire Marvin Lewis as replay coordinator for his senate campaign . Marvin Lewis is a little bit nervous about agreeing to the position because : a ) Craig James might not win , b ) NFL head coach is a much higher paying gig , c ) Craig James killed 5 hookers <p> To be fair to Craig James , 5 verifiable dead hookers is n't really a small sample size in the big scheme of things . Craig @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's only the ones that we know about for sure . <p> Craig James printed out this entire thread and brought it to his lawyer because he wanted to sue all of us for libel . His lawyer read it over , and told Craig that you ca n't sue someone for libel if they are telling the truth . <p> After craig james hurt his shoulder soph yr of college and stopped playing ball he got caught in that hooker game . yr later we went to cop some whore opened the sliding door on the van and blasted a lady of the night in the gut . still fucked her . <p> craig james was having lunch at the mall when this old man fell down the escalator . this kid yelled out " have a nice trip ? " while the old man 's shopping bag was strewn about and as soon as the kid started to laugh , the old man got up and started to beat the kid ... and i mean really lay into him . the kid never had a chance and by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of life left in him . when he finally got dragged off , the old man calmly dusted himself off , straightened his jacket and started to gather his things ... <p> When trying on shoes at the mall , Craig James makes the elderly salesman with the bad back put the shoes on his feet and tie them . Because if he did n't want to hurt his bad , he should n't be a shoe salesman . <p> craig james had a sneaking suspicion his wife was cheating on him one day , so he heads home after the front 9. he just ca n't shake this feeling that something 's up and starts to speed home . flying into his development , one of the barton boys chases a basketball into the street directly in front of craig james ' big ranch f-150 , narrowly becoming hamburger. there 's a mercedes in the driveway and the sounds of intense lovemaking echoing throughout the cul-de-sac . he opens the door ,

@@5134041 <h> Exploring cravings for the gym , healthy food , a happy life and sweet indulgences <h> Back into the swing of things <p> Do n't worry , I wo n't be one of those people simply because I 've had an awesome Monday . I 'm finally back into my usual mid morning gym classes , the bf had a sick day at home and I 'm just simply feeling great ! I do have one exam to study for but lets just say it 's only worth 25% and the lecturers have given us very little guidance for what to study ... so procrastination is in full force . It 's not worrying me ( yes I said that ! ) because I did do some on Saturday and I know I have a week from tomorrow to study . Yes I know you 're impressed with my sensible and rational explanations <p> Oh and if you 're not in the mood to complain how about you do n't see the new movie ' Seven Psychopaths ' . I seriously felt like I wasted 2 hours of my life and did not get anything from that movie @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and a shame , since the previews made it look hilarious ! <p> Apart from gyming , blogging , chilling with my man and seeing the movie I 've just been getting back into the swing of my old routine . Is n't it funny how 4 weeks ago I was dreading the new change to prac and now here I am- sort of missing the new routine ? I guess we all worry about change a little bit but in time we adjust and actually get use to it ( just like our bodies gets fitter and use to our usual workouts- that 's why we must change it up ! ) . <p> That 's a big part of anxiety for a lot of people- the change that the future can bring , and not being able to predict or control it . I know that 's something I struggle with also . But you know what ? That change can bring about new and amazing things , and maybe even things that you end up liking more . <p> It 's okay to feel uneasy about the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Accept it and then make the best of it . Or just make pancakes instead ? Yes shameless linkage going on , but seriously those pancakes were good and I could n't let you miss out on an opportunity like that . <h> Behind the Blog <p> My name is Bek and welcome to my little space on the internet known as Crave . Here I talk about food , cooking , baking &; recipes , fitness &; exercise and more serious stuff like eating disorders and issues . Feel free to contact me by entering your details in the contact form at the bottom of the sidebar- I

@@5134141 <h> TM Connect <h> Forbes : The 400 Wealthiest People in the U.S. <p> The combined net worth of the 2012 class of the 400 richest Americans is $1.7 trillion , up from $1.5 trillion a year ago . The average net worth of a Forbes 400 member is a staggering $4.2 billion , up from $3.8 billion , and the highest ever , as two-thirds of the individuals added to their fortunes in the past year . Another factor : the gap between the very rich and the merely rich is widening . Only two in the top 20 are poorer , and as a group they are worth $73 billion more than a year ago . <p> The country 's three richest entrepreneurs drove much of those gains , continuing to add billions to their net worth , even as they give money away . Bill Gates , Warren Buffett and Larry Ellison , who hold onto their respective spots at numbers 1 , 2 and 3 , were up $7 billion , $7 billion and $8 billion , respectively . Ellison 's $8 billion jump was the biggest dollar gain of anyone on the list this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ generous people on the planet , having given $28 billion and $17.5 billion to date , respectively , including $1.5 billion that Buffett gave away since the last rich list . <p> To be included on the list of 400 , an " entry fee " of $1.1 billion is required . When Forbes first compiled the list , in 1982 , required net worth to make the cut was a mere $75 million . <p> The report says that for this list , there were " 266 gainers , 20 newcomers and 12 returnees " included . <p> While winners outnumbered losers by nearly four to one ... there were some stunning drops . No one fell more dramatically than Facebook 's Mark Zuckerberg , whose fortune stumbled $8.1 billion , making him the year 's biggest loser . He is still $2.5 billion richer than he was two

@@5134241 <h> Some real Shock and Awe : Racially profiled and cuffed in Detroit <p> Silly me . I thought flying on 9/11 would be easy . I figured most people would choose not to fly that day so lines would be short , planes would be lightly filled and though security might be ratcheted up , we 'd all feel safer knowing we had come a long way since that dreadful Tuesday morning 10 years ago . <p> My flight from Denver landed in Detroit on time . I sent a text message to my husband to let him know we had landed and I would be home by dinner . The plane stopped on the tarmac , seemingly waiting to have the gate cleared . We waited . I played on my phone , checking Facebook , scrolling through my Twitter feed . After a while of sitting there , I decided to call my husband to tell him the plane was being delayed and I would call him when I got off the plane . <p> Just as I hung up the phone , the captain came over the loudspeaker and announced that the airport authorities wanted @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ airport . Must be a blocked gate or something , I thought . But then he said : Everyone remain in your seats or there will be consequences . Sounded serious . I looked out the window and saw a squadron of police cars following the plane , lights flashing . I turned to my neighbor , who happened to be an Indian man , in wonderment . What is going on ? Others on the plane were remarking at the police as well . Getting a little uneasy , I decided the best thing for me to do was to tweet about the experience . If the plane was going to blow up , at least there 'd be some record on my part . <p> Stuck on a plane at Detroit airport ... cops everywhere <p> Soon the plane was stopping in some remote part of the airport , far from any buildings , and out the window I see more police cars coming to surround the plane . Maybe there 's a fugitive on the plane , I say to my neighbor , who is also texting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ He asks me to take a few , as I have a better angle from my window seat . A few dozen uniformed and plainclothes officers are huddled off the side of the plane . I do n't see any guns , and it is n't clear what 's going on . <p> So I continued to tweet : <p> A little concerned about this situation . Plane moved away from terminal surrounded by cops . Crew is mum . Passengers ca n't get up . <p> Then what looked like the bomb squad pulled up . Two police vans and a police communication center bus parked off the road . I started to get nervous and rethink my decision to fly on 9/11 . <p> Cops in uniform and plainclothes in a huddle in rear of plane . <p> We had been waiting on the plane for a half hour . I had to pee . I wanted to get home and see my family . And I wanted someone to tell us what was going on . In the distance , a van with stairs came closer . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get off the plane and get shuttled back to the terminal . I would still be able to make it home for dinner . Others on the plane also seemed happy to see those stairs coming our way . <p> I see stairs coming our way ... yay ! <p> Before I knew it , about 10 cops , some in what looked like military fatigues , were running toward the plane carrying the biggest machine guns I have ever seen -- bigger than what the guards carry at French train stations . <p> My last tweet : <p> Majorly armed cops coming aboard <p> Someone shouted for us to place our hands on the seats in front of us , heads down . The cops ran down the aisle , stopped at my row and yelled at the three of us to get up . " Can I bring my phone ? " I asked , of course . What a cliffhanger for my Twitter followers ! No , one of the cops said , grabbing my arm a little harder than I would have liked . He slapped @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ plane . The three of us , two Indian men living in the Detroit metro area , and me , a half-Arab , half-Jewish housewife living in suburban Ohio , were being detained . <p> The cops brought us to a parked squad car next to the plane , had us spread our legs and arms . Mine asked me if I was wearing any explosives . " No , " I said , holding my tongue to not let out a snarky response . I was n't sure what I could and could not say , and all that came out was " What 's going on ? " <p> No one would answer me . They put me in the back of the car . It 's a plastic seat , for all you out there who have never been tossed into the back of a police car . It 's hard , it 's hot , and it 's humiliating . The Indian man who had sat next to me on the plane was already in the backseat . I turned to him , shocked , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I asked him if he knew the other man that had been in our row , and he said he had just met him . I said , it 's because of what we look like . They 're doing this because of what we look like . And I could n't believe that I was being arrested and taken away . <p> When the Patriot Act was passed after 9/11 and Arabs and Arab-looking people were being harassed all over the country , my Saudi Arabian dad became nervous . A bit of a conspiracy theorist at heart , he knew the government was watching him and at any time could come and take him away . It was happening all over . Men were being taken on suspicion of terrorist activities and held and questioned -- sometimes abused -- for long periods of time . Our country had a civil rights issue on its hands . And , in the name of patriotism we lost a lot of our liberty , especially those who look like me . <p> I never had any run-ins with the law . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ how my appearance would affect my travel plans , I never had any concrete reason to think I would be targeted . I passed through security without excessive searching ( except that one time they thought they saw a pocket knife in my husband 's backpack , which they could n't find anyway even though it was there ) . Because I am my father 's daughter I am aware of the possibility of anti-Arab and anti-Semitic sentiments that have increased dramatically , but luckily no members of my family nor myself have had to endure what so many others have gone through in this country and throughout the world . As Americans we are scared and horrified by acts of terror . But I am not sure that what we are doing to dissuade and protect are working . <p> We arrived at an offsite building and remained in the squad car for a few minutes . The Indian man was taken out of the car first , and an officer stood at the door to make sure I did n't go anywhere . I asked him several times @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . It was like I was invisible . I felt so helpless and shocked . I was being treated like a criminal . <p> Then it was my turn . I got out of the car and was led , still cuffed , to a cell . " Are you serious ? " I asked the officer , and he said yes . The heavy metal door was shut and locked behind me . Again , I asked what was going on and why was I here . Finally he said , they will let you know later . They are going to ask you some questions . <p> I sat down on the metal cot that hung off the wall . It had a thin , green vinyl mattress -- mattress is a generous term -- that offered no comfort . It was about a 6-by-10 cell , the concrete walls were painted a light yellow but were streaked with black dirt . The floor was some sort of stainless steel , and a stainless steel toilet that has probably never seen the good side of a scrubbing brush @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ long as I could . Near the ceiling above the toilet there was a video camera . <p> A plainclothes officer stood came to my door and asked me if I spoke English . Something in me snapped at that question . Of course I spoke English I 'm an American citizen , you asshole ! Well , I left the expletive out . " Ok , " he said and stood watch outside my door saying he wanted to make sure I did n't " flush anything . " He also would n't tell me what was going on . <p> As I sat and waited , quietly contemplating my situation , the other Indian man was getting questioned in the main room outside . I could n't see what was going on , but I could hear a bit . They asked him where he was from , did he have any family , where were his shoes . He talked quietly and agreeably . I wondered if he was as incensed as I was or if he had entered this country expecting harassment from the American authorities @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I heard an officer tell him to remove his clothes . He was going to be searched . I could not fully grasp what was happening . I stared at the yellow walls and listened to a few officers talk about the overtime they were racking up , and I decided that I hated country music . I hated speedboats and shitty beer in coozies and fat bellies and rednecks . I thought about Abu Ghraib and the horror to which those prisoners were exposed . I thought about my dad and his prescience . I was glad he was n't alive to know about what was happening to me . I thought about my kids , and what would have happened if they had been there when I got taken away . I contemplated never flying again . I thought about the incredible waste of taxpayer dollars in conducting an operation like this . I wondered what my rights were , if I had any at all . Mostly , I could not believe I was sitting in some jail cell in some cold , undisclosed building surrounded by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ discuss my impending strip search . They needed to bring in a female officer . At least they were following protocol , or something to that nature . Still , could this really be happening ? <p> Eventually a female uniformed officer came in . She looked like a fat Jada Pinkett Smith , and in a kind but firm voice explained what was going to happen . I was to stand , face the wall in a position so the camera above the toilet could n't see , and take off my clothes . I complied . She commented on my tattoo , saying , " Oh you have one of those things -- good and evil , right ? " <p> " Yin and yang . Balance , " I said , grabbing my clothes to redress . <p> " You understand why we have to do this , right ? It 's for our own protection , " she told me . <p> Because I am so violent . And pulling me off an airplane , handcuffing me and patting me down against a squad car did @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sure all my orifices were free and clear . <p> She apologized for having to do the strip search , and I asked her to tell me what was going on . She said she did n't know but someone would come and talk to me . She put my handcuffs back on and left . The other officer stood guard outside . I told him I needed to call my husband . He said I could use the phone later . <p> As I sat in my cell trying not to think about my full bladder , they brought another man in . I wondered if he had been on the plane as well . Were they going to bring everyone in or had they just singled us out ? He spoke belligerently , and I could n't understand much of what he was saying . But I did hear two officers talking about the man who stole a $3,000 watch at the security checkpoint . Now there 's a real crime . What was I doing here ? <p> I had no idea how much time had passed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tweet on the plane . I could n't tell if it was day or night . I was tired , confused , angry and bored . I wanted my phone . I wanted to call my husband so he could come to Detroit and rescue me . I wanted to update my status so my friends were n't freaking out . Did I also want a lawyer ? <p> Another female officer , this one in jeans and a t-shirt came to visit me . She introduced herself as an agent -- Homeland Security . She removed my handcuffs and had me follow her to a different room down a long hall and through a few doors . As we walked , I got a glimpse of the watch-stealer , a chubby middle-aged white guy with a buzz cut . He did n't look too different from some of the officers . <p> She led me to a small , white room where a man who introduced himself as an FBI agent was waiting for me . I sat on one of three chairs at a small metal table , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ both offered me their badges for inspection , not that I would have known the difference , but they were calm and not pushy . I appreciated that . The male agent proceeded to ask me a series of questions about where I had been , where I was going , about my family , if I had noticed any suspicious behavior on the plane . The other agent took notes while I talked . They asked if I knew the two men sitting next to me , and if I noticed them getting up during the flight or doing anything I would consider suspicious . <p> I told them no , and could n't remember how many times the men had gotten up , though I was sure they had both gone to the bathroom in succession at some point during the flight . <p> They had done some background check on me already because they knew I had been to Venezuela in 2001 . They asked about my brother and sister and asked about my foreign travel . They asked what I did during the flight . I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ read , slept and played on my phone ( in airplane mode , do n't worry ) . They asked about my education and wanted my address , Social Security , phone number , Facebook , Twitter , pretty much my whole life story . <p> Again , I asked what was going on , and the man said judging from their line of questioning that I could probably guess , but that someone on the plane had reported that the three of us in row 12 were conducting suspicious activity . What is the likelihood that two Indian men who did n't know each other and a dark-skinned woman of Arab/Jewish heritage would be on the same flight from Denver to Detroit ? Was that suspicion enough ? Even considering that we did n't say a word to each other until it became clear there were cops following our plane ? Perhaps it was two Indian man going to the bathroom in succession ? <p> He warned me that the last time an incident like this happened back in December , they had to interview everyone on the plane @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . It was going to be a long haul . <p> They asked me if I wanted to add anything that they had n't asked . I said no . Then they asked if I needed anything . I said I needed a real bathroom , and the female officer , saying she did n't blame me , offered to take me to the officers ' bathroom . I must have peed straight for five minutes . <p> She walked me back to my cell , telling me it was for my own protection as they had brought in the rest of the passengers for questioning . They would fetch my stuff from the plane and allow me to call my husband . My cell had been occupied by the Indian man I had sat next to on the plane and in the squad car . So I waited for them to move him to the second cell that was holding the watch stealer . As I passed by the small window in that room I could see the watch stealer splayed out on the cot . He appeared to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sit . <p> After fingerprinting me and asking me about my height/weight/place and date of birth and so on , a middle-aged white cop with a beer belly and a flat top returned me -- without handcuffs -- to the cell . I waited , wondering if I would be spending the night locked up . I thought about the last words my husband said to me while I was still on the plane waiting on the tarmac , " They must have found out there was a Hebshi on the plane . " We joke about this at times , that because of my ethnicity I am being scrutinized but I had no intention of putting that out to the universe and making it happen . <p> I thought about Malcom X and how bravely and fastidiously he studied and wrote while he was in prison , how his solitude enabled him to transform his anger into social change and personal betterment . That 's when I decided to write this post . I needed to explain what had happened -- was happening -- to me . I was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what my rights were , and though I felt violated and scared I was n't sure that our new laws protected me from this treatment . <p> The female agent returned to my cell with my cell phone . She wanted me to show her my tweets -- that were simultaneously posted onto Facebook -- I had composed while on the plane . She joked that she did n't even have a Facebook account . She left for a few minutes then returned and allowed me to call my husband . She said I would be released in a few minutes . <p> The sound of his voice brought me to tears , but I tried to remain calm . I gave him a one-minute recap of my situation , which only left him confused . I told him I would call him when I got to my car , which was parked in an airport lot . <p> I hung up the phone and followed the officer out of the cell and into another small room where the male FBI agent was waiting accompanied by another FBI agent -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ three of us were being released and there was nothing suspicious found on the plane . He apologized for what had happened and thanked me for understanding and cooperating . He said , " It 's 9/11 and people are seeing ghosts . They are seeing things that are n't there . " He said they had to act on a report of suspicious behavior , and this is what the reaction looks like . <p> He said there had been 50 other similar incidents across the country that day . <p> I was led out another door and down a long hall where I gathered my bags , which had been removed from the plane and searched . In the hallway I saw the other two men who had also been detained . They seemed happy to be being released as well . It felt strange to smile at them , and I did n't know what to say , so I said nothing . <p> We walked outside of the building , and for the first time I saw that we were at the airport police station , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Security office to reside -- an office that did n't exist 10 years ago . It was starting to get dark . But I still did n't know what time it was . <p> Another officer drove me to my car in the airport parking lot . As he plopped into the drivers seat and me into the passenger 's seat of the unmarked sedan , he apologized for not having air conditioning , but , I thought snarkily , being a descendant of desert people I obviously did n't mind the heat . He asked me if I was OK to drive back to my home in Ohio , and I said I was , though I was n't sure I was . I was n't sure how this would affect me . I am still not sure . <p> All I know , is I probably wo n't be flying again on Sept. 11 . <p> In the aftermath of my events on Sept. 11 , 2011 , I feel violated , humiliated and sure that I was taken from the plane simply because of my appearance . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on the flight or tinkered with any " suspicious " device , I was forced into a situation where I was stripped of my freedom and liberty that so many of my fellow Americans purport are the foundations of this country and should be protected at any cost . <p> I believe in national security , but I also believe in peace and justice . I believe in tolerance , acceptance and trying -- as hard as it sometimes may be -- not to judge a person by the color of their skin or the way they dress . I admit to have fallen to the traps of convention and have made judgments about people that are unfounded . We live in a complicated world that , to me , seems to have reached a breaking point . The real test will be if we decide to break free from our fears and hatred and truly try to be good people who practice compassion -- even toward those who hate . <p> I feel fortunate to have friends and family members who are sick over what happened to me . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that plane who felt threatened enough to alert the authorities . This country has operated for the last 10 years through fear . We 've been a country at war and going bankrupt for much of this time . What is the next step ? <h> 3,550 Comments <h> Erin O'Gara <p> This is beautiful , Shoshana -- had me in tears throughout and I could n't agree with you more . I 'm so sorry that this horrible thing happened to you , but am thankful that you are home safe and sound . Lots of hugs and love to you ! <p> People have become so paranoid , scared of every shadow , every whisper that is n't government sanctioned . I am ashamed of people who react blindly . The sad truth is , the terrorists did win that day . 10 years later , people are still terrified . That 's the entire goal of terrorism .. until America stops the blind fear that makes situations like this possible , they will continue to win . <h> Tanya Harris <p> If they ever thanked me for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " I understand there will always be bigots . " I wish I could say it will never happen again , but I 'm fairly certain it will . Hopefully not to you , but definitely to someone else . I hope you bang a whole lot of pots and pans together . I hope you get people 's attention so that this school-yard bullying is exposed . And by the way , who 's to say that a " passenger " reported suspicious activity even though they say this was the case ? I hate to say it , but maybe the group of you met their racial profiling criteria . Bye the way , love the blog . Tanya in Norfolk , Virginia <h> Toni <p> After visiting Russia in 2005 , I noticed a lot of similarities between the US and Russia in terms of the paranoia and possibility of things like this happening . I pretty much believe that the terrorists that do exist out there are pretty much people all acting in response to oppression of this sort and this kind of policing helps them @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ global standard for common sense treatment of people , this BS can end tomorrow . Unfortunately , things in most of the West will have to get worse first over the next decade before people really hit the limit . There is also too much information available for people to properly pursue issues , and the administrators of the US , Nato , EU know this . <h> Amanda <h> Allison <p> In addition to your excellent comment , the terrorists have also won in that they 've divided us even further . We had racial tension and race- and religion-based bigotry prior to 9/11 , but it 's gotten so much more intense since then . <p> If the terrorists wanted to destroy America by turning us into each other 's enemies , they 've accomplished that task . <h> Russ <p> Do you think that is a result of terrorism , or perhaps the advent of social networking , anonymous blogging , and the many other ways people can express hatred with no consequences ? <p> That 's not to say that there is any hatred in what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think we have many outlets for hatred that did n't exist 10 years ago . This does n't stink of being a result of 9/11 to me . I think the author 's experience is awful and I wish it had n't happened , but I am also somewhat grateful for a system which does look into what someone may perceive as a serious threat . I survived the attack on Tower 1 of the World Trade Center on 9/11 so my perspective may somewhat subjective , but I would rather be detained or searched ( and I was searched unnecessarily many times in the years immediately following the attacks ) than have no tools for reporting something that may look suspicious to me . That being said , I think I have the ability to be rational enough not to report three people sitting on a plane not interacting with one another simply because they look suspicious for no reason other than my paranoia and the color of their skin . <p> Anyway , I do n't think the terrorists " won " because of this scenario . I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a lesson in why the methods to keep us safe need to be further refined , but at least there are efforts out there to do so . <h> Liz <p> " Searched " ? ? ? ! SEARCHED ? ? ! ! The author was n't " searched , " she was STRIP searched ! ! ! And , to you , that 's merely an " inconvenience " ? ? She was *imprisoned* and that 's just an " inconvenience " ? ? I 'm so glad you survived the 9/11 attacks , but to in any way , whatsoever , try to justify the cretins who reported " suspicious " behavior based *solely " on the physicaly appearance of the author is , well , criminal and obscene . There is no justification for what that idiot did . Their abject paranoia may be a *reason* but it is not an excuse . There is no excuse , and they should be subjected to the same " inconvenience " that the author and the other two passengers were . Period , end of story . The terrorists @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ scared " passenger did the right thing and you think that the author was merely inconvenienced because we have to be so scared that we utterly trash the Constitution by subjecting citizens to unreasonable search and seizure . DHS could have checked her background without all of that and found she was no threat , but they decided to go through with this heinous crime anyway . Inconvenienced , my arse . <h> Marla <p> Liz , I 'm reading no further after your post because you have said it all . Besides , I do n't think I could emotionally handle any of the gung-ho TSA responses which are surely here somewhere . Shoshanna 's log of events is one of the scariest accountings of this national stupidity I 've read to date . <h> Allison <p> I believe it 's a variety of factors , yes , and the anonymity of social media is a part of the change . But yes , I do believe that a huge percentage of it started because of 9/11 . <p> While you , personally , may be rational enough to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And that , to me , is the most frightening aspect of this security theater nonsense that we 're forced to endure . Unsubstantiated reports of unspecified suspicious activity are taken at face value by authorities who then cuff people , sequester them , strip-search them , and interrogate them . Who assesses the validity of the original complaint ? No one . Who 's held responsible when innocent people have their Constitutional rights violated for no reason ? No one , because the original report can be just some jackass on a plane . <p> There is a middle ground between having " no tools for reporting " and violating people 's rights based on unsubstantiated rumor . We have to find that middle ground . <h> Niraj K. yadav <p> I 'm of Indian descent , with both my parents being Indian immigrants to the US . Having been born in the US , I 'm a citizen by birth , but one of those two men could easily have been me on that plane . And nothing scares me more than the fact that I can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ color of my skin . <p> My question to those who feel it is not a major outlet from 9/11 is this : If the people beside her had been Caucasian , , would this have ever been reported ? Or , instead , as I 've seen happen on many a flight , would a steward(ess) have rather made sure the individual(s) in question were OK , understanding that illness does occur amongst people of all walks of life and that just because 3 people sitting together seem to be of a similar race does not necessarily mean that they are actually in some sort of conspiracy to commit a crime ? I highly doubt it . <h> dave <p> If this had been racial profiling , would n't some action have been taken much sooner than near the conclusion of the flight ? I gather that nothing was noted as unusual about any of this threesome until the two men went to the bathroom together and spent ' a long time in there ' . I imagine ( tens of ) thousands of middle easterners were probably flying @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ immediately after 9/11 . Were all of these also detained and questioned ? We have only heard one side of this ' story ' ( which is all we will get given protocols agencies have to follow ) , but , gee , there could be a second side to the matter . <p> So .... is it better to ignore suspicious behavior -- under the guise of being politically correct -- and have a plane blown up instead killing a hundred ? Okay , maybe it 's just me ... but I guess I would consider it a bit odd if two men that apparently do n't know each other go into the lavatory together and spend an ' inordinately long time in there ' together .... <h> Englishman <p> As a European " anglo-saxon " , I have no trouble with this over cautious reaction , given the level of concern about the significance of the date . BUT , there is no excuse for this level of discourtesy . It is very possible to show a MUCH higher respect for the detainee whilever the possibility remains that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is no case to answer . Unfortunately , my limited experience of US homeland security , in the form of Passport control both in 1974 , 2003 2004 and in 2006 , is one of open hostility to non-US visitors . <h> Gigi G. <p> Oh now Dave ... I was n't going to make any comment here because there are already so many great remarks but I have to respond to your nonsense . <p> You obviously have no experience traveling on planes . What you suggest is just so utterly ignorant I ca n't possibly be more polite about it . It is not at ALL uncommon for the two passengers ... to get up and go to toilets at the same time . It happens like this ... the guy on the outside has to go so when he dos the guy sitting in the middle ( she said she was sitting by the window ) decides it 's a good time to go too . That way he wo n't disturb the other guy later ... it happens all the time . It 's called consideration @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ only strange to people who are paranoid and racist ! AND do you know WHY someone might spend an inordinate amount of time in the toilet ? It 's called constipation and it happens OFTEN when traveling on airplanes ! <p> And who is so frigging nosey that they would even be keeping track of how long someone goes to the toilet ? A busy body ... that 's who . And what ? They were in the SAME toilet cubicle together ? I doubt it . This is just a case of some nosey biddy body doing what they do best : gossip . And I 'll just bet you if any one bothered to check the person who raised the alarm probably has a history of " raising the alarm " . <p> And do n't tell me that our very " intelligent " ( I use the term loosely ) FBI could n't have assessed the situation and figured out just by quietly doing their homework on these people before the plane even touched the ground that there was no risk . <h> jon <p> My bet @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at the time the Indian gentlemen spent in the toilets . I also get pissed of with such people , which normally includes almost everyone except me . <p> On a different note , I long ago added the US to the list of countries I will not visit , along with Somalia and Yemen . The only time I accidentally visited the US was a transit in Guam in 2007 en route to Majuro -- a very unpleasant meeting with some TSA goons and a destroyed suitcase . <h> Ron <p> Wow , Kimberly Lohr , you might be the most ignorant person in the world . Your grandfather fought to protect everyone 's rights , but you support the trampling of the rights of your fellow American ? It seems that you cherish the freedom that you have , but do n't seem to care if a brown skinned person is locked up for no reason other than her appearance . Hypocrisy is the worst of all sins . <p> If you 're not downright stupid , then you are a horrible person . I hope it 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ my sympathy . <h> SilenceDogood <p> No , Hazey , people like you who so badly want your security at any cost need to leave the USA for places where that already exists . Those places are called North Korea , Iran , Cuba , for starters . I hear they 're lovely this time of year , and offer the best of safety and security for their citizens . <h> orangecountyresident <p> Hazey , people like you and Kimberly cause me to lose respect for this country . And no , I 'm not going to leave . I 'm going to stay here and vote for people that do n't think like you two . People like you and Kimberly are a million times worse than the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11. <h> orangecountyresident <p> Wow Kimberly , you are a racist pig . It 's people like you that make me ashamed of this country and you are one of the reasons why I did n't go to any 9/11 memorials . Too many people who remember the victims of 9/11 think like you . I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ than 9/11 itself . <h> Mike <p> To begin with , you do n't have to shout . It makes me think you 're crazy . And second , unless you are of Asian or African descent , I doubt seriously that your Great Great Grandfather sweated much at all . It was people of the aforementioned descent who did all the real work of building this country . And by the way , there have been Caucasians who have been arrested for acts or intent to commit acts of terrorism . First , there were the Oklahoma City Bombers and then there was Jihad Jane who was arrested last year in Philadelphia . She was blond and blue . Get a grip and learn something . <h> googlie@yahoo.net <p> Wow , you 're an idiot . If you even had the slightest clue what the real definition of terrorism is and pay attention to what 's happening in this country you would understand that the largest group of radical terrorists in the world who are bent on terrorizing the people of amerika , and the world for that latter @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ gun toting overweight illiterate gas holes . You and your country do n't even have a dollar bill as every dollar in circulation in the US is borrowed from foreign interests including the paper it is printed on because your great grandfather was n't as great as you imagine him to be . Furthermore if your God was anything more than an imaginary low life loser you would actually trust him for your protection and not some gun toting , psychologically unstable , otherwise unemployable complete stranger . <p> If you believe civil liberties is having some complete stranger chain you up at the barrel of a gun and jam their hands up your A22 for their pleasure and imagined " protection " you should remove your head from yours and start feeling the freedom . <p> It would be great if you and your ilk would leave instead of destroying this country with your idiocracy . <h> Carmen LeBlanc <p> Common sense is the middle ground . . . before law enforcement reacts as they reacted here there must be probable cause to react . what exactly is the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ law enforcement training sees two dark skinned men get up at the same time to go to the bathroom and somehow that arises to the level of detention and strip searching . Really ? Thats where we are now ? I want to understand where the ability came here for the government to detail the passengers , handcuff , strip search and then <p> I heard ZERO evidence that would lead one to believe that there were explosives involved here -- that was a fiction invented by the government to justify what they had done to that moment . " Oh , we 'd better check for explosives " Hey idiots -- the plane was ON THE GROUND AT ITS DESTINATION ! If they were going to blow it up they would not do so after it landed at its destination . <p> Is there ANY common sense left in our nation ? <p> There was ZERO reason to detain , ZERO reason to search and zero reason to question . They certainly can talk to these guys all they want -- my reaction would have been silence . F @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- end of story . You have a problem with that ? Wait a minute ? Am I being detained ? If so why ? Am I free to go ? What are the facts upon which you are basing your detention -- the time has come to end the idiots running around trying to justify the billions spent on their toys . <h> Arif <p> First of all , I feel for the lady and the other two and the rest of people ( crew/passengers ) for what the went through . <p> Wow , you are one sharp cookie . Have you forgotten this is the nation where at one point the whole family or anyone can walk up the the terminal , see their friends or family members get on the plane . And if you were like my family , you would wait till the plane takes off and then leave the terminal . What changed and who changed it ? Have you forgotten how many lives are taken away from how many loved ones ? Have thought about how many people were affected by the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ behind ) are going through ? People who survived are still having nightmares . I 'm Christian and a US citizen , but because I 'm from Pakistan my airline ticket is always marked ' randomly ' . I do n't have any problem with it . USA has every right to protect their properties anyways she wants . If I or anyone do n't like it , can leave and go back to their homes . The fact is , this is my home , I 'm afraid to go back home ( Pakistan ) because Muslims , so called radicals are killing Christians without any reason . If this incident were to take place on Pakistan airline , with an american or even a Paki christian involved , how do you think it would 've went ? I tell you how . The detained persons would be either be sent to prison with some religious blame if no explosive found , then killed . Stop blaming USA for what it has become , it is our fault . We just have to live with it . <h> Irish @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they treat the author in such an ridiculous fashion ! What are the charges , Probable cause , Warrant ? Who swore to the fact that they where suspicious ? Who started this mess and let it continue to propagate ? The only thing that separates us from the " disappearances " of the Nazi regime is the Constitution and our Bill of Rights . NONE of which has been repealed ! If this happened 50 times that day , there should be 50 cases filed in Federal court . WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE ? The reason the toilet in her cell was dirty is because they had been using it to flush America down the drain ! GGGGRRRR ! <h> ruth <p> Arif and Irish -- the extent that they investigated still does not warrant a STRIP search including CAVITY search of this woman . She did not even go to the bathroom -- the people sitting next to her did . Let 's see how well you do with a stranger poking around in your vagina or butthole when you 've done nothing and every indication of your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's going on . <p> There is a story developing in this thread that someone " paranoid " on the plane saw something like " two dark-skinned men get up together to go to the bathroom " and this is being discussed vis-a-vis the plausibility or not of making a ( racially profiled ) report to the authorities . Let 's stop that right now . <p> No such passenger is needed ( you could blame the flight crew instead ; perhaps even a more plausible angle to take , as they 'd have the ability to report suspicious activity in-flight more readily than people with Facebook and iPhones , etc ) , but this is not necessary either . Moreover , it does n't matter what the men did or did n't do . They could have sat there sleeping the whole time , it makes no difference , so let 's stop trying to understand this in terms that we can imagine as rationally plausible or possible . <p> We are , of course , hopelessly naive in the United States about this sort of thing . We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ like they saw in the Soviet Union or in Romania , where it was facetiously referred to as the national sport . <p> Whatever we are going to have " security " look like , the very fact that it is this kind of response and that it encourages people to be informants ( whether this is a case of one or not ) is the larger issue we should be concerned with , whether we think we 'll be detained or not -- because eventually comes the day when " your kind " will be detained , and by then , it 'll be too late . <p> There is a story developing in this thread that someone " paranoid " on the plane saw something like " two dark-skinned men get up together to go to the bathroom " and this is being discussed vis-a-vis the plausibility or not of making a ( racially profiled ) report to the authorities . Let 's stop that right now . <p> That 's not " a story developing , " it 's what happened . That 's established . So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ someone by making a false report , which is not what happened here . The discussion is not about the theories , it 's about a specific event that is holographically indicative of a change in American society that is producing social friction and dislocation , and about how to reverse it . Those who read the entire thread are able to discern this and avoid tangential discussions . <p> Thank you for tuning in to the discussion . There are other discussions taking place elsewhere . <h> Snow Leopard <p> Shaykh al-Hajj Dawud Ahmad al-Amriki : thank you for keeping things focused . What I meant by the " developing story " was the thread of the story as it was being told in the comments . For example , at some point ( below ) , someone finally discovers that it was a flight attendant ( Elizabeth Something ) who did the reporting , and then later , that she was passing on anonymous information from other travelers . That 's what I mean by the " developing story " . The facts of what actually happened are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ thread were getting bogged down over details that , in the contextual significance of this event , either do n't matter or are usually taken by people to make excuses for it happening , just as people in Soviet Russia made up reasons why the security forces were carrying away their neighbors . Such details here included bluntly suggesting that the original poster must have been doing SOMETHING suspicious or whether the two men went to the bathroom at the same time or went to the same bathroom at the same time -- one guy even develops a whole doctrine of how to fly , saying if you DO get up to go to the bathroom at the same time as someone else , tell the stewardess that you 're going back for gay sex . I 'd like to think he was being ironic or trying to be funny , but I do n't think he was . <p> In this particular post , I wanted to draw attention to the fact that the specifics of WHO did the reporting matters less than that SOMEONE made a report , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or the original poster were doing , and in fact did n't matter . That 's what I wanted to underline . <p> In this particular post , I wanted to draw attention to the fact that the specifics of WHO did the reporting matters less than that SOMEONE made a report , and that it would n't matter what the two men or the original poster were doing , and in fact did n't matter . That 's what I wanted to underline . <p> We 're witnessing a generation for whom oppression and tyranny are " givens " and inconsequential if they have no first-hand experience or are able to avoid them . This may be persistent . <p> Thank you . It 's a holographic portrait of the quasi-literate middle-management demographic sector of the collapsing economic order , with occasional glimpses of the more subjugated classes . I see a few armchair revolutionaries , a bit of magistry , but virtually no statecraft . Sadly , that 's not a surprise . <h> Tina <p> Ma'am it sounds to me like they were researching the validity of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the complaint was valid and there was a security risk . Putting her in a room alone where she could n't talk to others if she had " cohorts " and searching her for any items pertaining to a terrorist threat . <p> We do live in a paranoid society , but we also have some reason to be concerned . We 're hearing everyday of people using their CHILDREN as bombs , or hiding explosives up their derrieres . People are crazy , and they do these things because they think that they 'll get through basic searches if they go to extremes . <p> Had she been a threat , and somebody was concerned and brought her to attention and they said no we want to be politically correct and not stop her , or just ask her her name and see she 's an american citizen so not wanting to go against her rights let her go what would have happened if she 'd walked into the airport and blown herself up in the middle of it ? They 'd be shocked , and angry , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not look into it , it was brought to your attention , etc . Just like 9/11 there were reports , and information that was n't acted upon . <p> The part of the entire story that bothers me is the lack of respect , in my opinion they needed to detain her and follow through with making sure she was n't a risk , but they could have been more courteous about it on the off chance she was n't a risk and was just trying to get home . If it were me on a plane with my child and I saw something suspicious i 'd hope like hell my comments would n't be ignored . And two people getting up at the same time and going to the bathroom IS kinda weird . We have no clue if they were concerned because of the color of their skin , or because these men were getting up and walking out of view together . <p> " We do live in a paranoid society , but we also have some reason to be concerned . We 're hearing everyday @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ explosives up their derrieres . People are crazy , and they do these things because they think that they 'll get through basic searches if they go to extremes . " <p> Good catch , John . I was wondering about that myself . It seems to me people who believe they are " hearing everyday of people using their children as bombs " will inevitably be anxious and trigger happy when it comes to reporting suspicious behaviour . I think the media and the government have a lot to answer for as they have created this climate of fear that turns people against each other . <p> @Tina : Please think about what you said there . Think about a parent using their child as a bomb . Would you do it ? Of course not . Would your neighbour do it ? Of course not . In fact you 'll find a lot more children harmed by their parents through abuse or even homicide after a marriage breakup . <p> Either you believe there are a lot of mentally ill parents out there who would do what most @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do in their life or you believe certain people are predisposed to such acts of violence that somehow the rest of the civilised world is immune to . <p> Sting wrote a great song that tried to point out that the cold war created barriers between people who were essentially the same . It was called " I Hope the Russians Love their Children Too " . <p> I put it to you that human beings are all the same all over the world , regardless of race or religion . What you fear is IMAGINARY , or at the very least , greatly exaggerated . When you realise this , you will be freed from the shackles of fear and be able to live a normal life . I live in Australia where this climate of fear exists too , but it 's being directed at Asylum Seekers . All common sense has gone out the window and many people want them to be left to die on their boats . It 's shameful but the root cause is the same -- unfounded FEAR . <p> Actually , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ else , Kabdoo , I agree with in your comments . I 've never heard anyone saying that " they use children for bombs . " It 's a total line of bullshit and fearmongering , hands down . <h> Martha <p> It may not be happening here in the USA but it does happen over in Israel . One Israeli once said something to the effect that the Palestinians would stop using their young as suicide bombers when the parents loved their children more than they hated the Jewish people . <h> SilenceDogood <h> bn1511 <p> I do n't understand why the behavior of the two men , one following another to the bathroom , is in the least bit suspicious ... <p> If I do n't have the aisle , I almost always wait for the person in the aisle to go to the bathroom before I go ... it 's less disruptive and I think it 's more respectful ( though not required ) of your fellow passenger ... <p> This is disgusting beyond words ... that we corrupt basic human dignity and behavior in the name @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 100 plus times a year , I know how irritated I would be if someone in the window seat always wanted to make me move so they can go to the toilet and I know how appreciative I would be if they coordinated their " visits " with mine . <p> But then , I do n't look at people of color and instantly reach conclusions about their motivation . <p> I hope you and your child always stay safe but understand that sacrificing basic human dignity at the altar of " feeling good " will only ensure your child will grow up in a world full of bigotry and hate . If that 's what you want then by all means , soldier on . <h> Ravan Asteris <p> So all forms of fascism are justified for the CHILDREN ? What kind of world does that leave the CHILDREN , then ? Do you want your CHILDREN to grow up worry that they might be detained based on the color of their skin , way they dress , or slang they speak ? <p> If you 're going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it all the way through . <p> The whole situation was far too much for some paranoid racist saying that fiddling with a phone and sitting next to other dark skinned people is ' suspicious ' . <p> By your logic we should have a nice trustworthy grandma eyeing people as they enter the airpoirt and just pointing out the ' dodgy looking ' ones , and questioning them for 6 hours each . After all , " what would have happened if they 'd walked into the airport and blown themselves up in the middle of it ? " " Why did n't you trust the grandma ? ! " they 'd cry ! <h> ruth <p> Tina -- the extent that they investigated still does not warrant a STRIP search including CAVITY search of this woman . She did not even go to the bathroom -- the people sitting next to her did . Let 's see how well you do with a stranger poking around in your vagina or butthole when you 've done nothing and every indication of your demeanor and response is that you have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ No . No . No . Getting up to use the restroom at the same time as your neighbor is not weird . It 's courteous , so you do n't have to bother them later . I do this all the time . Your paranoid behavior is making me reconsider being courteous . <h> Paul <p> Shoshana , thank you for sharing your horrendous ordeal with us ; it is too too real . Since 9/11 , Americans have been encouraged to fear and to be suspicious of others . It seems that .. a sick paranoia has been seeded into the minds and hearts of Americans of " the other . " It is regrettable and unjust that these " false witnesses " are never identified or made responsible for their actions/diminuendo 's .. It is a disgrace that we do n't even know our rights ... for it seems that you had none ... just no words for you , no answers for you ... just the guilty until proven not guilty treatment ; certainly not in keeping with the American Justice System . Thank you again @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> Completely agree with Allison above . There are no easy answers , but we 've been blasted too much by fear and unfortunately that is a great tool for the use of power without regard . We , the people , have to keep up the pressure on the authorities to find a middle ground -- to protect us without violating us . I am confident a nation like this one , founded on those very principles , can face that challenge and reach that goal ! <h> Mike <h> Jason <p> It is unfortunatate that this happens at all . I 'm of ethnic origin myself ( not sure exactly which because my mother was adopted ) and so I consider myself black . Since 9/11 I noticed that ' at random ' must be written somewhere on my birth certificate . Every flight I have been on since , I have been instructed to remove my shoes and go through screening processess different from the other passengers . As a former member of a special operations unit , I 'm appalled at the ' freedom ' I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just glad you have a means of telling people the ordeals people of ethniticity go through while the majority of the population read caucasions simply view it as being ' vigilant ' . <h> Missa <p> Is this Professor Shaheen ? I met you and your wife in Columbia Missouri several years ago after you gave a presentation . My little son was the one that complained he wanted to go home so he would n't miss Leno . And you said your daughter worked for him <h> Dan from NYC <p> @ Allison -- Having traveled quite a bit both domestically and internationally over the years I can authoritatively state that current U.S. procedures may seem stringent but are far less so than other " active " zones . <p> Regarding first verifying the validity of the report , elsewhere herein I stated the case thus , " everything that occurred once the report(s) were transmitted to the flight crew is exactly what one would demand of our law enforcement entities . A report must be taken with the greatest gravity until proved otherwise . <p> A softer response @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ other aircraft and underground fuel lines and the deplaned passengers in a much more heavily populated terminal . Had the threat been an actual assault with massive death and mayhem resulting , would we not be excoriating law enforcement for their " lack of vision " ? " <p> No one 's rights were violated to say otherwise displays a layman 's misunderstanding of the law . I agree that since 9-11 the threshold of " reasonable " search and seizure 4th Amendment has been redefined.by the circumstances arising from those events . The very ambiguity of the use of the phrase " reasonable " allows for interpretation as society 's needs change . So legal definitions may change without any actual infringement occurring . <p> As such , it is not the law or it 's enforcement that is at fault . It is our individual lack of awareness of the law as well the definition and significance of the words employed , the ultimate and final arbiter being the SCOTUS . <p> All that being as it is , well before the events of 9-11 the well established @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ amendment/5.4 " Exigent circumstances arise when the law enforcement officers have reasonable grounds to believe that there is an immediate need to protect their lives , the lives of others , their property , or that of others , the search is not motivated by an intent to arrest and seize evidence , and there is some reasonable basis , to associate an emergency with the area or place to be searched . " <h> Cindy <p> So some college kid playing a " prank " , some bigot who does n't like the color of your skin , some mentally unstable person .... basically anyone can say anything without validation ? ? ? ? I guarantee you that if the three of them had been white , nothing would have happened . End of story . You can try to make it sound better by saying that law enforcement had to act on the report .... but who made the report ? There are a lot of bigots in this country and a lot of people use the bathroom on planes . Are we now going to let them @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ telling them what is going on ? I say you detain the person who reported the activity and strip search them . Whose to say they are not deflecting attention away from themselves and are up to mischief . In no way was this right . From the " person " who reported it , to the flight crew who passed it on , to the police who detained and ultimately the FBI and Homeland Security . Thank goodness my skin is white so I can fly without fear even though she is just as much a citizen as I am . It is criminal and she should file a suit in a court of law . Then maybe things will change . Is Hitler ruling our country now ? ? ? Must everyone be white to have rights and not be " suspicious " ? <h> DavosSherman <p> Cindy : Doubt it . Sounds more like a cabin flight crew-member who got nervous and jerky over someone taking a 20 minute $hit . If the flight deck crew had any doubts they should have diverted . The entire thing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cops -- what effing terrorsist would blow a plane up at the destination gate ? I 'm glad I 'm no longer a line captain . <h> Dan from NYC <p> You are assuming the report was racially motivated and presume that if the report was about a white person it would be ignored or handled differently . While Shoshanna may have " felt " it was racially motivated that does n't mean that in fact it was . To argue it was a racially motivated report replaces logic and analysis with supposition from a predisposed belief that is itself akin to the mind set of a racist . <p> Also to assume your white skin shields you from suspicion and experiencing a similar detention is based on a fallacy . I think one name should cover it , Timothy McVeigh . Do you honestly believe that law enforcement would ignore a report of suspicious activity made against three whites or that protocols would be different for them ? Given Janet Napalitino 's expressed views on white terrorists you can be assured that Homeland Security 's response would be the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the accepted definition of something being racially motivated is that " if only one person thinks it is racially motivated , then it is . " Since the author does feel this way , the incident was therefore racially motivated . <h> Jess <p> You feel that the rights of human beings to be free from unnecessary , unwarranted , and unreasonable police detention and violation should be thrown out on the word of the stupidest , most cowardly cretin on an airplane ? <p> Why could n't you just go live in a country like that , instead of turning America into one ? <h> Dan from NYC <p> Please define your terms , " unnecessary , unwarranted , and unreasonable " and what information you are basing that judgement call on . Drawing conclusions from fanciful predisposed beliefs rather than available facts is an emotional process and not a logical one . <p> I am sorry Shoshanna went through a very tough time . I can , and do , empathize with her and wish her a full recovery from this experience . Her anger and hurt are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ basis for designing response protocols to a potential threat . <h> Irish <p> There was no threat . We ca n't run around hiding from " potential threats " . Potential threats can come from misunderstandings , bigotry , emotion . There should be no actions on potential threats . Two guys get up to go to the bathroom who look like middle eastern men . They come back and sit next to a woman who looks middle eastern ... Where is the threat ? When the coward who started this asked the Flight attendant for help , she should have " shooshed " him ... At the very least , she should have gone the the row , engaged the folks in conversation , asked if they needed anything . Is there still a threat ? Are they acting strange , avoiding eye contact , covering an object under their shirt ? You do n't need fancy training for this . Sadly , it involves common sense and some basic observation skills . YOU have to get involved The fact is that there are SSSOOOO many security checks , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ anyone boards . We need to ensure that there is a real reason to be worried before we call in the Police state . Waving it all off to " good protocols " is like slapping the author on the A$$ after her strip search and offering her a cigarette ! Shame on everyone who even thinks this behavior from our government and the people on this plane was somehow justified ! <h> Raging Itch <p> The people who had their rights violated were innocent . The fact that us there was a response in force means that resources were diverted from other , more credible , threats . There are finite resources , so wasting them on non-threats is dangerous . <p> If law enforcement is unable to determine if a report of suspicious behavior will pass the Sniff Test , then they are doing it wrong . -- -- <p> BOTTOM LINE : the world is n't safe . Everyone who reads this will die . You make the choice whether to live in fear or REFUSE TO BE TERRORIZED . <p> Right . A false positive is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a duty to appear and conduct ourselves at all times so that there is no possibility that we will arouse suspicion and divert the authorities from the real evildoers . Anything else is the moral equivalent of turning in a false alarm . <h> Allison <p> The fact that other countries do worse things to fliers does not mean that we should either follow their example or be complacent when things happen here with which we disagree . <p> What I expect of law enforcement officials is actually NOT to take every single report " seriously , " in the sense that every single report should be considered valid enough to strip search the subject of the report . In civilian law enforcement , when a report is made , the officers at least question the person making the report to determine , among other things , the validity of the report being made . They ask questions of the reporter to determine if the report has a basis in fact , and contains reasonable cause to follow up . As far as I can tell , reporters of " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the same way -- a person says " I am suspicious of X , " and the authorities basically say " OK ! " and proceed with handcuffs , detention , strip searches , and interrogations . <p> That 's not acceptable . The authorities should , at the very least , interview the reporter FIRST to determine if the reporter has any legitimacy to his or her claims . In the current situation , people make reports of suspicious activity are not held accountable for those reports . Such a system contains no checks and balances on people making the reports based on , as in this case , ethnicity rather than actual behavior ( from what I can tell ) . <p> There is a middle ground between what occurred , and the so-called " softer response " example you provide which is basically do nothing . <p> The rest of your information is much appreciate , and I plan to read it in depth . <h> Dan from NYC <p> You are correct that law enforcement officials have to make judgement calls on reports all the time @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in certain kinds of reports . <p> For example , here in New York , any report of domestic violence must be taken as a fact and they are required to detain the person against whom the report is made even if the individual who complains recants . It 's not always fair and the arrest warranted or not proceeds in much the same manner that as Shoshana experienced . <p> We are not party to what intelligence indicated regarding terrorist activity or possible plans -- especially on the tenth anniversary of 9-11 that would scramble two F-16 fighter jets to escort the flight to Detroit . We also have this statement from FBI Detroit spokesperson Sandra Berchtold , " Due to the anniversary of Sept. 11 , all precautions were taken , and any slight inconsistency was taken seriously , " Berchtold said . " The public would rather us err on the side of caution than not . " <p> The other passengers were reported to have been taken by bus to police headquarters , held and questioned . While we might suppose what they experienced we can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ until they are vetted and cleared and in all likelihood searched and/or scanned . <p> Dan : what you are saying is all entirely defensible , on the presupposition that one must follow a law ( procedure , or protocol ) simply by virtue of existing . Police who enforced segregationist policies in the US South and elsewhere might have felt a similar queasiness even as they " did their duty " . So your argument ignores those occasions when civil disobedience becomes the moral necessity . <p> You are also ignoring what prompts people to make reports that then , under an interpretation of an exigent circumstance , must ( indeed ) be carried through to its grim conclusion . A demonstrable pattern of false positives and the skin color of US air travelers is not a dismissible pattern , and this instance might be in or out of that pattern factually , but it is definitely in the pattern circumstantially . <p> Basically , the point you are defending is a moot one . Very few people would disagree that " suspicious circumstances should be investigated " or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be investigated . " The issue , rather , is what criteria do we accept for someone reporting a suspicious circumstance ? We can look at the kinds of circumstances where people reported something serious and it turned out to be accurate -- such as the strange object found in a bathroom or other public place . So finding a suspicious package in an airplane bathroom would be a likely candidate . Where are the cases where a " suspicious person " turned out to be a suspicious person ? I know of no cases , and the current evidence of this thread is that racial profiling is creating a red herring ( and will serve as a way for terrorists to be more effective in being invisible -- see the white Jihad Jane , etc ) . <p> When it becomes culturally acceptable -- under whatever pretense -- to take anyone 's informing in an uncritical way , then we are veering toward a socially dangerous situation . It creates circumstances where people can deliberately generate false positives in various ways and for various reasons ( as some men @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ example you cite ) . At the very least , in cases of false positives , there should be or could be repercussions for the one making the false report . In fact , for domestic violence , if the police determine that someone has made a false accusation , then that person may be charged with making a false report . In that case also , the person making the report is already known to the one accused . In this case , there is no such confrontation or repercussions , but there should be . <p> You might say this would dissuade people from making reports . That 's as it should be . People should not feel free to indulge in their racist fantasies about their fellow travelers . Laypeople have no idea what " reasonable grounds " are and they can still err on the side of caution and also moderate their fear-driven imaginings by forcing themselves to a certain level of internal confidence that their report really , actually , does need to be made . Moreover , in the case of a false positive @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ accused -- aside from the sense of justice in this , it is also an educating moment , as it teaches that person that their basis for suspecting this person ( perhaps because of the color of their skin ) was unjust . We should want , culturally , to dissuade false positives ( reports that lead to false positives ) , although of course it is in the interests of the ruling powers to put us in a situation where a sense of helplessness or fear makes us have to call authorities to deal with situations . That 's the moment that critically , socially disempowers us , and puts us that much closer to trammeled civil liberties and a police state . <p> With your respect for the rule of law , I would think you would support an addition to the current procedure that supported the effective function of the rule of law , rather than the effective abuse of law that allows authoritative bodies to further erode civil rights under the color of authority and arguments about national security . <h> Ron <h> kay <p> I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the terrorists not winning because of this scenario and that this is a lesson about our system needing refinement . The protocol for dealing with such situation does not develop into a perfect system over night ... not even over ten years . I am a flight attendant and I have a pretty good idea about how Shoshana 's situation manifested and to some extent I suspect she is correct ... that she was included in the scenario because of the way she looks . Unfortunately , this is a result of the events ten years ago and of the intelligence that has been attained since then about how future attempts might be carried out . At this point , there is no better protocol than hypervigilance and that means that sometimes people are going to be held in suspicion until proven innocent . This is NOT meant to be the American way , but it is the best we 've got for now to prevent another incident like the one ten years ago . <p> I feel bad that Shoshana had to endure such humiliation and I hope that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ may look like those men who orchestrated the horrific attacks in 2001 is a terrorist . I am certain , though , that she was included for another reason and that is the perceived suspicious behavior of her seatmates . In the end , these factors came together to create a situation that looked much like what might be the makings of a possible attack . Thankfully , as it turns out , the situation was completely innocent . Given that there was evidence of plans in the works for more attacks on this anniversary , I do not believe the actions taken in this instance were overdone . I am happy to know that the authorities treated Shoshana and her seat-partners with as much courtesy and respect as is possible in such a situation . In many other parts of the world , suspects are not treated as well . <h> Jacqi <p> I so agree with you , Russ . If we had been more cautious 10 years ago , maybe the disaster would not have been so great . However , it is what is , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . I am sorry the writer was arrested , but in my book , better safe than sorry . Protocol is protocol . What is with people texting , tweeting , and talking nonstop on their cells , and computers when it is apparent that something is occurring . Could this have helped lead to the suspicions of the crew ? <h> Ann <h> jeanne <p> Survivor of 9/11 Tower 1 : Your comment is SO well said , I too , would rather have this awful experience , because , yes , SOMETHING works ... we remain safe from , most likely , hundreds of thwarted attempts at showing us we CAN be hurt ! ! <h> Allison <p> Please provide citations to support your assertion that the violation of people 's Constitutional rights has resulted in " hundreds of thwarted attempts . " <p> We can not assume that these things are working to keep us safer . And even if they are , we are sacrificing ideals that are supposed to be " uniquely " American -- freedom , justice , equality -- for this nebulous and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a true wonder . Your arguments are sound a realistic . Keep up the verbal sparring ... let 's start a petition to force repeal of the Patriot Act . I recently heard a story on NPR about a middle aged white guy video taping the Mall of America ( where he lives ) to send to family over seas ... He was arrested , sat for hours in a secret cell under the building and now has an FBI file and police record . For taping a video of an American tourist destination in his town to send to family . Another guy was fired , and while the arguments counter his claim that he was fired for being a loud mouthed liberal , it does n't matter . He too has an FBI file and a police report with his name on it . I am angry . Just by writing something like this , we could end up in someone 's hot water . " The only thing to fear is fear itself . " We 've let fear win and we 've lost so much in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ When did skin colour define someone 's ability to harm others ? We are so quick to judge others based on appearances . Yet , we fail to realise that sometimes the threat lies within the people we think are harmless . The police , the military , etc . I am grateful for what they do to protect the safety of the people , but at what cost ? Has it really come down to violating innocent people 's constitutional rights just for the sake of clarifying a rumour with unfounded evidence ? We also fail to realise that we do as much harm to other countries as we are doing to OUR VERY OWN CITIZENS . Lets recap this whole war against terrorism : we falsely accused people and stripped them of their constitutional rights for the sake of national security . BUT who protects those who were violated both in our country and elsewhere ? The numerous people who were murdered or raped as a result of this war on terrorism . WHERE IS THEIR JUSTICE ? Are they not people as well ? Just because they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ treat them any less than we expect for ourselves and families . I do support the underlying concept of security , but have we really let ourselves go to paranoia and fear ? Before we act , we should act on solid evidence or at least pieces of solid evidence and not rumours before determining someone is a terrorist . <h> Tom Triumph <p> How was the Constitution violated ? When one goes through security at the airport you are told a what the rules were . Someone accuses you and the police hold you so they can check it out . Holding someone for a limited period of time does not violate the Constitution . It sucks being held , and the fellow passenger might be an idiot , but the officers did their job without bias or abuse and you were writing about it the next day . <p> It just bothers me that people jump so fast in assuming this when shitty stuff happens . We want people to use common sense , but , to be honest , that leads to bias and old boy networks @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ( often limited ) . A rule of law treats everyone the same , so the author was n't left to rot or treated poorly because she 's " one of them " . Instead , she was investigated and released the same day . The Constitution , and the officers ' following it , got her through quickly and without incident . <h> David <p> Well said Tom . As she speaks of being pulled out because of the way she looks , she claims it to be because of the way she looks . Yet because the officers detaining her look to be the " REDNECK TYPE " she speaks of hating everything that might be Redneckish . If she wants for everyone to love each other then maybe should also live by the rule . I feel bad for what has happen to the young lady , but if you do nt want the sterotype thinking to go on then start by living with no hate youreself . <h> Sheep Hurrdurr <p> But that 's besides the point , because these people were n't arrested . They @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what charges they were arrested under , feel free , because even they do n't know . <p> Strip/cavity searches , racial profiling , arrest without charges ... all of these are " bias and abuse " . " A rule of law treats everyone the same " , so yes , I think it 's safe to say America does n't have a rule of law . <h> Christian Lyons <p> Really , a strip and orifice search is not a type of abuse ? Come on . Her background check and interview should have precluded a strip/orifice search . How humiliating for this poor woman . I think she 's being rather kind in her blog . If it were me being falsely accused and strip/orifice searched , I think I 'd be a lot more upset than this . If this were an elderly white woman sitting next to two Indian guys , I doubt she would have been subjected to the same " process . " This is coming from a 46 year old white male and former flight attendant who was actually in flight during @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ IS bias . Bias on the part of the unknown and uninvestigated fellow passenger who originally made the false accusation . Then , bias on the part of the authorities who took that false accusation at face value without determining whether the accusation had any merit to begin with . <p> Of course , we have these regulations only because of the eight years of the GWBush administration . Now our society is being prodded into becoming suspicious of our fellow Americans instead of the powerful politicians who deserve to be scrutinized . <h> Show-me Skeptic <p> Constitution not violated ? Are you nuts ? This woman was dragged off a plane , handcuffed , strip searched and detained . All she did was travel by air while dark-skinned -- I guess in the modern-day U.S. , that 's a crime ! The Constitution was most assuredly violated , it guarantees that we wil be free from unreasonable searched and seizures . This strip search and this detwention ( seizure ) were blatantly unreasonable . Somebody needs to be fired over this . <h> rba8053 <p> Tom Triumph is completely @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ She was not charged for anything due to her race . It does suck , but it is for the safety of everyone . Being a patriotic American and of Latino descent , if Mexico or any other Latin country did something as awful as the 9/11 attacks , I would be completely understanding of being searched on the anniversary of the attacks when I am traveling on the exact same method of the attack . I would not be whining or crying . <p> You have to look beyond yourself sometimes at what is best for the country , not just you . We have become so selfish , and the media portrays all these rights in an incorrect light . Just because you get pulled over for speeding and you are of color does not mean you were racially profiled . If we continue down this line of reasoning that everyone who is racially profiled and simply questioned ( not even arrested or treated bad ) has had their civil rights violated , law enforcement will be walking on egg shells around anyone of color , and violence @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ more prevalent and easy . <p> Thank you Shoshana for doing your American duty of answering the questions and cooperating with the authorities . It sucks you were detained in that fashion , but it was done properly and as a preventative measure on the anniversary of the worst terrorist attack . You should be proud to have been helpful in clearing it up , but without complaining . <h> Irish <p> rba8053 ... You must work for the Government ! I have looked over your comments to many of the posters ... Look away from the author being Arabic/Jewish. scrub her color from the picture . She was arrested , STRIP SEARCHED , SEXUALLY ASSAULTED ( cavity searched ) , detained , and questioned without a warrant or probable cause . YOU need to re-think your belief that the Constitution and further SCOTUS interpretations allow for this ! In the absence of known criminal behavior , not being informed of the charges against her , I think it is perfectly reasonable for the author to wonder if the reason she was being treated this way was because of her @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ YOU PERSONALLY should reflect on this situation ! Re-think and re-read the 4th Amendment and the relevant SCOTUS decisions . Arabic , Latino , Irish , or Black ; No AMERICAN should be treated this way ! ! Shame on you for suggesting otherwise ! <h> Mike <p> Mr.Latino , Will you be ok if you were racially profiled in Arizona for " looking like an illegal immigrant who jumped over the border with 13 kids " . How about searching you for machetes and suspected of being a radical member of " La Raza " groups . <h> J.D. <p> This case is a clear-cut violation of constitutional rights . Yes , in cases of imminent &; credible national security threats , our " normal " rights may be stepped on in that greater interest . However , there clearly was not a credible threat here . To take the major step of strip searching someone is a HUGE violation of privacy rights . It 's one thing to pull someone off of a plane , pat them down , question them , even check their background through reports @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ someone . And , by the way , caselaw does not consider 6 hours to be a " limited period of time " when that time involves holding one 's urination and being subjected to a strip search . If you do n't understand how describing a strip search to merely " suck " is not only offensive to the lady who endured it but also offensive to the Founding Fathers ( one of their top priorities in the Constitution was to free citizens from unwarranted searches and seizures ; check out the Federalist Papers &; see how much of the discussion is dedicated to this one issue ) , why do n't you have a stranger jab his/her hands in every hole of your body as you stand hoping that the camera nearby has not recorded the ordeal . Oh , and be sure to try to hold you pee while you do it . <h> Ca n't Stand Idiots <p> Actually , being held is a " seizure " under the Constitution , and is not allowed " without probable cause . " There was absolutely NO probable @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ gentlemen whose only " crime " was to use the restroom coincidentally at the same time . The U.S. Supreme Court has already held that portions of the Patriot Act ARE unconstitutional . Our founding forefathers must be spinning in their graves . <h> Irish <p> Tom , break out your copy of the constitution ... Well , with comments like these , you might have not seen it except for that week you saw it in your high school studies . *sigh* The constitution and the Bill of rights was trampled on during this . You are free to move about the country feeling secure that your person , papers , and home will not be subjected to search or seizure without a warrant being issued upon a sworn affidavit from your accuser . No arrest can be made without charges described in the warrant . Terms like " Exigent Circumstances " are being thrown around here and it saddens me . No one was in imminent danger that was observed by the arresting authority , so that is out ... " officer safety " was in no doubt @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ plane , so a " Terry stop " was all that was needed here . There was no evidence of probable cause found in their seats , on their person , or in the bathrooms by officers , Flight attendants , or passengers . Further detention , searching , strip searching , and questioning without a warrant would be unconstitutional ... An informed , educated and aware population would have never let America slip this far from the path ... <h> Authority <p> Allison , there have not been hundreds , there have been so much more . There is nothing to quote because the " authorities " do not make every attempt public . Just like they do n't make every murder , rape , etc. public either . Do n't you think they know how much more fear that would cause ? If you would like proof , go to the nearest police station and ask to see their stats . Then imagine that throughout every city in every state around the country . You seem intelligent . Do not assume you know everything and do not assume @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they do make every murder , rape , and every other crime committed in the U.S. public . They have to . All crimes investigated , all arrests made , and all court documents are public record . In certain crimes , names of victims are not reported in the news to attempt to protect those victims , and juveniles are not generally named because they are n't of age or being tried as adults . Just because people do n't pay attention to the reports , or because it 's not front page news , does not mean all criminial activity is not public record . The problem with what happened to the author and many others who are detained is that detention is not an arrest . It is not public record because there is no real paperwork inovolved if they are n't actually arrested . The authorities , whichever variety of authority they are , can detain anyone they like , for any " suspicious " behavior , real or imagined . That is where our laws fail us as citizens . We have allowed our country @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ many Americans feel it is worth giving up some of their rights to feel " protected . " There is no measure that will fully protect you from all the dangers you can imagine and all that exist if your government and its agencies are among those dangers . <h> Allison <h> BB <p> Flying is not a right . If you do n't agree to the security procedures , then stop complaining and drive . <p> As for what Authority said , he is absolutely right . The government has stopped many terrorist plots , ( such as the Seattle Recruiting Station shooters , or the Times Square bombing plot ) , doing what they are doing now . There are many more that none of us know about . Its a dirty job , but I 'd rather be patted down in airport security than be on a plane thats going to crash into a building . <p> Again , flying is n't a right . Its a privilege . Drive if you want to complain . <h> Jeanine <p> ' Authority ' you seem to have a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Our government ( of which these hapless TSA and FBI morons are a sorry part ) -- IS REQUIRED TO PROVIDE ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY . I do not know ' everything ' but I do know the difference between JUSTICE and FASCISM . Like far too many public officials you would have us ' shut up and obey . ' To you I would say if you like dictatorships then move to Saudi . <h> David Alison <h> Anne <p> Excellent response . I personally have to endure " pat-downs " each and everytime I fly as I have a prosthetic hip . I am blonde and blue-eyed , smiling and friendly toward all TSA , yet I am subjected to being handled , literally , before getting on any flight . No one will ever convince me that this makes anyone on the plane I am about to board any safer . It 's smoke and mirrors . I have no recourse .... if I want to fly , I MUST allow this . Yes , America is a changed country since 9/11 , but as several have already @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is necessary as we find case after case of non-common-sensical searches occurring . Blanket approaches to solving most any problem in life rarely work well . We are Americans . We are suppose to be free to pursue life , liberty and happiness . I am tired of the unspoken idea that I may be a criminal because my body causes a machine to beep . It 's a machine , and I am a human being , deserving rights afforded to me by my Maker . The US Constitution affords me rights as a citizen . When will someone come along that has the insight to see where the line is to be drawn in order to provide security for all of us , and detect with some degree of certainty the people who would attempt to destroy our peace of mind ? <h> Joe Jericho <p> He ca n't provide the example . TSA has n't found one terrorist since it was created and has n't thwarted one thing . Sure , the found the underwear bomber -- after the fact , and it was n't TSA who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ survived the Towers going down . My Aunt and Uncle have lived in Manhattan for 40 years and my Uncle was running through a subway tunnel getting away from the fallen towers . But , if someone was in the tower that day and got out , I will give them a pass on any comment they make regarding this . It 's just too personal for them . I 'm sure some of these people probably wanted to nuke Afghanistan , etc . You just got ta let it pass . <h> zirjo <p> You say we remain safe because of things like this happening . When has there been any threat thwarted because of an unsubstantiated report of " suspicious " activity ? There have been threats averted because of diligent work by government officials , but all I see with these overreactive paranoid people is them apologizing in the end and basically saying " No hard feelings . " Then people who do n't have dark skin say they would gladly go through the situation if it meant they were safer . Wow , maybe that 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ pat down ! And you think THAT is humiliating ! Just take the time to imagine being carted off in handcuffs and thrown into jail , even though you have done NOTHING and ARE AN AMERICAN CITIZEN ! Even though this story was publicized , there are still people out there who 1-think maybe she did do something , or 2-at the very least she delayed whatever they were doing that day and incomvenienced THEM . But , hey , no harm , no foul , right ? <p> The truth is , being in a criminal justice program and sitting through classes on public administration , not every single " unsubstantiated report of " suspicious " activity " is looked into , but in situations where the country is on max alert because of threats from Al Qaeda ( Starr , Ahlers , Jansen , 2011 ) then the common belief throughout the government is some people should have to sacrifice their rights if a suspicious act is perceived . I would normally strongly disagree with people having to sacrifice their rights but if there is already a perceived @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ report cam from the crew ( Elizabeth Chuck ) , and was most likely perceived because it came from the crew as viable enough of a report to react to . I 'm sorry that Hebshi and the two Indian men felt violated but i would like to think that if I was in the same situation I would accept it , but that might just be because I am biased and want to go into a government job after graduation . <p> That the report came from the flight crew ( a point I suggested was more credible up above before I read this post ) does n't change the analysis of the situation , except that it shows the training of flight crews needs some tweaking . <p> The fear people express about being secretly accused has to be factored in with any fear of terrorist attacks . For the author of this post , informing not terrorism was the source of terror . It is reassuring , in one way , that it was a flight crew person who made the report , because one can assume @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of what suspicious activity might look like on a plane , although that does n't make them immune to racism or tendencies to racially profile , etc . So the only material change that this piece of information introduces is that it demonstrates that official bodies may be likely ( and probably should be likely ) to respond more to " more qualified reports " . If official bodies respond to someone who is right 98% of the time , that reduces false positives tremendously , as opposed to leaving it up to fear-riddled passengers who are , literally , just guessing . <p> This does n't address issues of racial profiling , etc. , but it points to a way to have workably enhanced surveillance ( which is not the same thing as saying greater safety ) without subjecting people to what turns out to be unnecessary unpleasantness . I hope that no one has lost sight of the fact that the author has , by these acts against her , been subjected to terrorism . It is an act of terrorism ( State-sponsored ) for authoritarian bodies to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ even if they 're guilty ) . It is a display of force that leaves an impression , quite apart from whatever excuses or justifications we ( or anyone ) wants to offer about necessary security and whatnot . That is , it may be security AND it is terror at the same time . It is terror that extends to her children , as a story , to her friends , as an experience she relates . It comes with anger as well , of course , but the perfectly rational response " I wo n't fly on 9/11 anymore " belies the traces of violence done to this woman . <p> I propose in the case of all false positives that the accuser minimally should have to be confronted by the accused . Anonymous reporting can not be allowed in cases of what turn out to be false positives . People should know when they make mistakes , and if those mistakes are racially motivated ( then they 're not mistakes , but acts of terror themselves ) , then being shamed for those mistakes is not inappropriate @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tower 1 : RELINQUISHING YOUR RIGHTS TO DIGNITY AND DUE PROCESS DOES NOT MAKE YOU SAFE . IT ONLY MAKES YOU A TARGET FOR FASCISTS . I suspect that neither one of you looks like the targeted racial groups . You would rather live in a ' safe ' prison ' than a free society ? 9/11 was horrendous , but it was a sneak attack . There is no rational way to be 1005 ' safe . ' All we can do is use some reasonable awareness . As for ' survivor of tower 1 ? : how do we know you are who you say you are ? You could just as likely be a troll working for the RACIST BIGOTS IN THE FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT . THE TRUE TRAITORS ARE THE AUTHORS OF THESE LAWS -- PATRIOT AND SO ON . NOTICE HOW NOBODY PROFILES WHITE CHRISTIAN MALES AFTER TIMOTHY MCVEIGH MURDERED HUNDREDS . Frankly , Jeanne , your prejudice and blindness to privilege is showing . <h> marc <p> Think of the northern civil rights campaigners of the 60 ? s . Going south for a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ does your government need to make you feel ? Not everybody can have their courage but everybody needs some . <h> Carol <p> I feel badly that this has happened to you because of your skin color . Unfortunately , people profile all the time . It can be ecause of skin color , or speech accent , or because they are fat . My friend is constantly looked down on because he does n't have a " job " and he is Native American . He is a very well known artist but that does n't seem to ' count ' . I am overweight and I am profiled constantly . Everyone , even doctors , have a tendency to think people become fat because of over eating In my case , it is because my body does not make enough Human Growth Hormone . I ca n't fix it because athletes and others have abused it so there is no insurance company anywhere that will cover the high cost . I think we are all at fault because of our fears , our hate and our inability to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your comments 100% . Today a friend of mine wrote on facebook that her prosthetic breast was swabed for explosives . My doctore explained to me that he will never go through the x-ray machines if he is selected for an enhanced search . He explained to me that exposure to radiation is cumulative and back scatter x-rays are more dangerous than a regular x-ray of your arm or lungs because those x-rays are pinpointed . Back Scatter x-rays do exactly that , they scatter radiation all over your body . With all of the negative publicity , you would think that the police would use some common sense in the way that they conducted themselves . What happend to this lady was outragious . Thanks again for your comments Allison <h> julianna <p> This was not a violation of her constitutional rights . As a travelor in the post 9/11 world we live in , we all have the right to be safe . If you do n't like what is happening , drive to your destination . I am so tired of people complaining about civil liberties being @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tip or even if it was just someone profiling , and there was an explosion or another accident , we all would have been screaming that they did n't do enough to thwart another attack . You ca n't have it both ways . I say profile away . As an American you must understand this ... period ! ! ! We did n't do this to ourselves ... those cowards on 9/11/2001 did this . We just have to try and make sure it does n't happen again and if that means some blogger from Ohio .... some Father from Virginia ..... Some grandmother from Florida ... some child from California gets profiled and detained ... so be it . This country can not handle another attack and neither can I ! ! ! <p> No . No , we do n't . " Being safe " is not a right . And if " being safe " is that important to you , then I trust you do n't drive a car ( thousands of people die EACH ! YEAR ! ) , or send your child to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of molesting children ) . And I 'm sure you do n't buy food from the grocery store , with all the reports of e. coli contamination that happen every year . <p> You may be tired of people " whining " about their civil liberties being violated ; I 'm tired of people using Orwell as a social blueprint . <p> You may be unable to " handle " another such attack on US soil ; but if so that 's not my problem . There have been attacks on US soil before , and there will be again , at some point . I will point out , thou9.gh , that at some point between 9/11/01 and that next attack , you 're probably going to be dead . <p> Heart attack , cancer , car wreck , falling down the stairs , an allergic reaction to some medication , maybe even a spider bite . Drowning , perhaps . All of these things are MUCH more likely to happen to you than another 9/11 type event occurring . If the government ca n't keep you " safe @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what makes you think they can keep you " safe " from an event that is statistically so astronomically rare as a terrorist bombing in this country ? <p> Actually , for someone who does n't want another 9/11 , you are committing a micro-version of it in this post . Your words are an attempt to terrorize , to suggest that my civil rights should be violated , removed . You say I must understand this -- or else ? Is that it ? <p> I 'm smart enough , or reflective enough , to know that if I spend every day living in fear , then every day of my life is screwed-off . I 'd rather be scared at those times when I need to be . I was sitting in a cafe one day , and this guy came in , and I had a very strong , visceral reaction that I needed to be somewhere else . I did n't " report him " I just left , feeling ridiculous that I was , but also knowing I 'd feel even more ridiculous if I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had happened . This was probably not my finest hour , but I do n't spend all of my time being paranoid about people -- that 's just dumb to do to myself . <p> Your words frightten me . Your words are the kind that countries I would n't want to live in encourage and promote . If I was elsewhere , I could inform on you as a terrorist , and you would be swept away . Case closed . Problem solved . It 's tempting of course . It 's such an easy way to deal with " people we are scared by " -- but is that where we really want to live ? Do you ? The more reasonable response , of course , is to call for your censorship , but that 's just the same thing -- a more polite , gentler kind of death . Is that what you want ? <p> When people say , " If you have a problem with this country , go somewhere else , " my response is , " My problem is with you . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to stump for US values and the defense of the US , then please at least do n't violate those values in what you want . The very fact that your intemperate remarks will not and should not be taken as an input to the crafting of any security policy , though the fear and concern in your voice would be taken into account , is a testimony to what part of the US is good in how it functions . Racists want to lynch people of color ; they 're generally ignored . Men want to beat women ; they 're generally punished . You want a fascist government ; no thanks . You will find friends in politics to back you up and who will try to implement what you want , but luckily most of them are just lying to you that that 's what they 're doing , and really they 're just making sure they can line their pockets more with moolah , using your terror to ensure their reelection and the income stream coming to them through the department of defense and the prison-industrial @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by being frightened like you are . <h> Joe Jericho <p> This is right . The fact of the matter is that not everyone is awake yet . I guess it is ok to do this until it is done to you , a family member or a friend . I do n't roll like that . The Police State is violating all of our Constitutional rights , especially at the airport . While I realize that we do n't have the full plethora of rights that we get outside the airport , per Supreme Court jurisprudence , there is still no doubt that our 1st , 4th , 5th and 14th Amendment rights are being violated at times by certain people ( TSA ) . I 'd rather drive across the country at this point than subject myself to this kind of government intrusion in my life . I doubt that I politically agree with the blog owner about much . After all , she virtuously cited to Malcom X of all people . But still , I stand with her in her right to be free of this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the government . Today it is her . Tomorrow , it is all of us . <h> SilenceDogood <p> Every one seems to understand that being secure is not easy and a threat real or imagined on a day when the perpetraitors vowed to attack again must be acknowledged and dealt with period . It just so happened that the author of the blog fits the so called profile . They were all sitting together and not related or even familiar . Odd seat selection ? Last thing , the fat Jada Pinkett remark hit two groups of people with one stone Blacks and overweight people . The buzz cut white guy who looked like the police another questionable description of human beings . If you do n't want to be subjected to discrimination and profiling find a better way to describe other human beings . I am not saying whether the reaction was appropriate ? however the description of hardworking foot soldiers of American Security on 9/11 leaves a lot to think about . <h> Blanche <p> Carol : Your remark was timely as the author , herself @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Jada Pinkett Smith " . I think she could have chosen another descriptive adjective but she chose a word that , as we all know , signifies contempt of an individual 's physical appearance , no matter what the reason . So , we should ALL be aware of how we treat others and the way we want to be treated and what we say . On the same note , what happened to her was reprehensible but African-Americans have been profiled for decades and experienced far , far worse ( try lynching ) . I wonder how many times Ms. Shebshi experienced indignation when she saw other people of color experience events similar to her own and felt compelled to speak out ? In no way are my comments meant to demean Ms. Shebshi . She is correct to speak out but please not to forget that there were many people before you right here in their own country who were n't even allowed to express their righteous indignation the way Ms. Shebshi has . <p> Russ , I congratulate you on they way you expressed your views if @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ account of the situation was genuine , including the descriptions of the officers . I believe she was allowing herself to express , honestly , what she was thinking and feeling . It seems to me that America has still not come to grips with it 's ethnicity . We still hear of a crime and hope silently that the criminal can in no way be linked to us either by race , ethnicity or color . When we get to the point where it is okay to say ( for descriptive purposes only ) that a person of a particular ethnicity IS that ethnicity without it sounding racist , we will be on the road to evolution . When people try to describe me without using my ethnicity or race , it makes it quite difficult for someone to envision who I may be but as soon as someone says the ethnicity/race woman who was on the elevator , for example , there is a way to identify me accurately . In Shoshana 's instance , though , her " look " is neither her race nor ethnicity and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that if you have dark , straight hair and light-brown skin , we Americans have not found an identifier for you yet . As this is America , THE melting pot , throw in long , silky , curly dark hair with dark-brown skin and we are once again befuddled . <p> Homeland Security and the FBI did exactly as they should . They were respectful and thorough . I have been through the same type of search TWICE . once returning from Mexico and again returning from Canada , Because I 'd done nothing wrong , I was not concerned . <h> Allison <p> No , we do not need to accept the random violation of a person 's Constitutional rights based on unsubstantiated reports of unspecified suspicious activity from untrained civilians who are not questions about the veracity of their suspicions . <h> Susan <p> Allison , there is nothing ' random ' about flying on a plane on the the 10th anniversay of 9/11 . And when somebody calls the authorities to report what they perceive as a threat , the authorities simply follow protocol . Flying @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ unfortunately some more than others . That 's what happens when hijackers take over planes and kill THOUSANDS of innocent people ! <h> Allison <p> Yes , there is . Not everyone can plan their travel plans in order to avoid a specific date . And you 'll notice that not every single person flying on 9/11 was handcuffed , detained , strip searched , cavity searched , and interrogated , which according to your logic they should have been , simply for flying on 9/11 ? <p> The protocol , in this case , is bullshit . An unknown and untrained civilian , operating under who knows what , can notify authorities of his or her " suspicions " of another passenger , and the authorities take that unsubstantiated report without investigating the validity of it ? Really ? So , if I call in a report to DSS that you 're beating your kids , the DSS authorities should take that report without asking me any questions about why I 'm making it , what I 've seen and witnessed , what I suspect , etc. , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that 's the equivalent of what happened here . And I really do n't think you want that . <p> Hijackers on 9/11/01 killed thousands of people . Ms. Shebshi is not related in any way to that event . <h> Tina <p> Maybe i 'm wrong , but I do n't recall her mentioning a cavity search . A strip search is far different than a cavity search , just saying . <p> And yes , each and every claim of child abuse should be investigated , but the " equivalent " of this situation would be them coming to your home , asking you questions , looking through your house , looking on your child for bruises , seeing the claims were incorrect apologizing and leaving your home . <p> Having yourself detained for questioning is n't the same as having a child ripped out of your home on unsubstantiated claims . And who said they DID N'T ask the person these questions , and the person answered with specific examples describing her concerns ? Two men leaving at the same time to use the bathroom ( could @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to them ignoring everybody while texting on her phone ( could be somebody contacting a person arranging the terrorist plot ) . <p> It 's hard to put yourself in somebodys shoes , but it 's very easy to judge them for the feelings they had and choices they made . <h> Minuialear <p> The equivalent would be taking the children away for questioning ( without explaining why they are being taken away ) , as well as doing a thorough search of your house , after which point they finally tell you that a neighbor said she heard you yelling and assumed there was some sort of abuse . <p> This incident was n't a friendly " We 're just going to ask you some questions " sort of affair . Police with machine guns marched into the plane , handcuffed three people , dragged them off to a detention center without a word about what was going on , left them locked up for hours , questioned them about everything under the sun , strip searched them , and then explained the situation . The fact that they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when she 'd been asking them what the deal was for hours was indicative of the sort of respect she was given AS A CITIZEN , and that ought to disgust anyone . <p> As for the claims themselves , I sincerely doubt those two men were the only men who used the bathroom in succession , and I sincerely doubt she was the only person texting or using her cellphone once the plane landed , so that is bullshit . This event reeks of racial profiling , and her treatment is inexcusable given the scant reasons for suspicion that were reported . <h> SB <h> nonegiven <p> " " equivalent " of this situation would be them coming to your home , asking you questions , looking through your house , looking on your child for bruises , seeing the claims were incorrect apologizing and leaving your home . " <p> Wrong , if a social worker comes to your door wanting to investigate a report of child abuse , even accompanied by a uniformed police officer , you are not required to let them in , speak to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . You ask if they have a warrant or court order , if they do n't then you tell them to go away . <h> Charls Martel <p> The validity of a report is verified in this manner . Tey could have also stormed the plane and shot the suspects , but that would be what you are describing . Your comment about DSS follows the same logic as the previous one . <p> The claim was made , the claim was verified . <p> By continuing with your logic we could say that only 100 percent verified claims are to be investigates or confronted ? who is then responsable for the inital tip ? can only a trained indevidual classify someone as suspicious and give a report to be followed up on ? <p> thought problem : 3 personell on a plane have explosives hidden on their persons . a report was made as to these 3 suspicious indeviduals. how would this report be verified ? any different from the above story ? <p> On another vein , I am just curious as to what actions here violated someones @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ whether and how a person 's rights were violated here ? Our protagonist , a law-abiding citizen on the way to see her law-abiding husband , was detained for hours on an unsubstantiated decision and strip-searched . The Fourth Amendment says that you have the right to be guarded against unreasonable searches and seizures . How do you define " reasonable " ? Does relying on the unfounded , unverified , unsubstantiated accusation of a random stranger who 's a bit racist and paranoid really strike you as " reasonable " ? <h> Duane <p> Allison , I have to agree with you 100% . The simple fact is , the current " protocols " would not stop an intelligent , trained and determined terrorist anyway -- maybe a crazed nutcase , but that 's about it . The " protocls " that existed on 9/11 SHOULD have stopped most of the hijackings then -- but they did n't . What was missing then is the same thing that is stil missing now -- common sense . Without that , no protocol on Earth will work . <p> And personally @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ life and limb -- which means that they are worth taking risks for . I would not want " perfect " security if it meant giving up my freedom . Inconvenience , sure . True freedom , no . When we do that out of fear , then the terrorists win . <h> A realist <p> Youre rational is very selfish . Although this poor woman and the two men had to go through this ordeal for what turned out to be no reason , safety is still important to the other civilians and US citizens on the plane . Our government and its the entities working for it are there to keep you , me , and this Lady safe from a real threat of death and terrorist actions . This is the world that we live in . We can not just forget ... to substantiate a claim now-a-days on a bomb threat is a 50-50 shot at suicide . Like it or not , this is the world we live in . This is the result of evil pockets of terror making life harder for all of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you lay out in your comments . Our world is changed , and cooperation to prevent another 3000 deaths is a small sacrifice for the greater good . <h> Allison <h> Joe Jericho <p> Realist , please tell me where the real threat of death was on that flight ? I am sure you will be able to quickly articulate it . Or are you suggesting that there is a real threat of death everytime a plane takes off in this world ? I will grant you that a plane can crash , but I can get in a crash pulling out of my driveway in the morning . Please explain yourself . <h> Joe <p> Susan , We also have Inalienable rights as citizens of this great nation . We have 4th Amendment rights that guarantee us freedom from unreasonable search and seizure . What was done was a complete violation of this woman 's Constitutional Rights ! I do n't remember the quote of Benjamin Franklin exactly , but it went something like this ' Those who are willing to give up their Liberty for the sake of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to have TSA , FBI and Police Officers who are abusing their power we have in fact ALLOWED the terrorists to win . By the way , I have spent the last 35 years of my life in Law Enforcement and I believe the manner that LE 's conducted themselves in this situation and many others is outragiously wrong . <p> Susan , do you mean to say , brown people should " deliberately " not fly on 9/11 , because there flying can not be perceived as random ? Random work , random visit to somebody ailing , random visit to a wife or a girlfriend who was unlucky to be born on 9/11 years before the incident ? <h> Joe Jericho <h> Anthony <p> I 'd rather my plane explode than be subjected to this tyranny . Good thing I moved out of the fascist United States . I 'm really worried about when I have to go back and visit my family . I wo n't answer any questions , hold me in the cell . Government thug scumbags , the whole lot of them are . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ agree with Allison . We do not have to accept violations of our rights . Rational minds need to prevail . I 'm sick of hearing the old " if I did n't do anything wrong I do n't have to be afraid " argument . What if Shoshana had been with her kids ? What if she was on her way to visit her dying father ? A six-hour or more delay with no cause is not harmless . This is America . We prize our freedom . <h> Jim <p> America does n't have " an ethnicity " . We are a melting pot of people from all over the world . We are a nation of immigrants and natives , people of all nations who have come here to make their lives . The concept that someone thinks we have " an american ethnicity " is so repugnant that it 's not even funny . Shoshana , I for one , as a fellow American Citizen , apologize to you for what you suffered . You handled it with much more dignity than I would have . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hope . Thank you for that . <h> Marnie <p> If we accepted that unfair and inhumane treatment by anyone or towards anyone -- including the government -- was inevitable , we 'd still be in the 1700 ? s . Do n't you have any sense of pride in the essence of what it means to be American , with not only the right , but the duty to stand up and speak out against injustices ? Complacency and laziness is the antithesis of the American Dream , and will lead to the rotting of our way of life from the inside out -- a situation many times worse than what anyone else can do to us , but exactly what they wish they could do . But in that case , they have n't won -- we forfeited . Truly , ignorance is not bliss -- it is a path to destruction . <p> We need to figure out a way to rise above these issues that separate us , and unite as citizens , to fight for the values that this country was built upon , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ need to speak up , and make our voices heard . We need to stop allowing the politicians to run our country on their own personal platforms , and really start taking back our power . <p> Shoshana , I am so sorry that you endured this treatment ... I can only hope that you can find the strength and love in your heart to forgive -- for your own peace of mind -- and that your story might be able to make a difference , inspiring more people to stand up and speak out for the freedoms we obviously need to take more responsibility for maintaining , lest we lose them while we 're not looking . <p> You can go through life as someone who allows government to infringe upon your constitutional rights by simply saying this is a " way of life " and we need to accept if you like . However , that kind of attitude will take us down a road towards tyranny , and I would not want to see that . <p> No , the FBI and Homeland Security did not do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that are based on fear and ignorance and do nothing to further protect us . This is no different than TSA agents groping an 85 year old or even a young child . <p> As Benjamin Franklin said -- " They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary security deserve neither liberty nor safety . " <h> Dave in SB <p> Shelly Are you #@* &ing; kidding ? ? ? This is a way of life now ? ? Accept it ? ? Our founding fathers felt that a free people were not meant to be subject to this kind of arbitrary crap and that is a great part what made this country great , in the first place . Sadly , people like you are handing over our rights and freedoms , for your illusory sense of safety , such that someday we will just have fond memories of the freedoms our founding fathers gave us through the Constitution ! ! ! <h> ruth <p> Shelly -- I do n't have to accept anyone sticking their fingers in my vagina and butthole because of another @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not . It 's a violation and our Constitution protects against it for better reasons than the current fear . It does nothing in this case to ensure national security . What it does is set a precedent for those with some type of authority to do it to you because someone reported something " suspicious . " And eventually that person making a report could be your neighbor that has a petty disagreement with you and goes extreme or someone who just disagrees with your political beliefs . I 've already had this type of situation occur with me post-9/11 and Patriot Act , and no , it did nothing to further your security or anyone else 's . But it did a whole lot to violate my sense of personal security and safety , which is what is seems to have done in this case . <h> Thomas Hamilton <p> I agree , the system needs to be fine tone , but i rather have to go through a slight inconvenienced than to have 50 to 60,000 people lose their lives , because the system was being politically @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Blair <p> Charls , I think that there is a right to protection from unlawful search and seizure , which is the basis for the requirement for probable cause . It looks to me like this is the chief violation of Mrs. Shebshi 's liberties . <h> Joe Jericho <p> Quite easily the 4th Amendment . Unlawful seizure and unreasonable search . Geez . As for Hamilton , I agree with Allison a strip search and a possible cavity search was not a slight inconvenience to her . This just speaks to the self-centered nature of our society . Maybe your real thought is " F her " . ? ? ? ? <h> I support Rationality <h> BB <p> Due to the Patriot Act and our post 9/11 world , her search and seizure was not " unreasonable " . There was probable cause . It was 9/11 , and there was chatter of a chance that terrorists would retaliate . DHS and FBI followed procedure , which was given to them in the PATRIOT ACT . <p> Also , the 6th Amendment only applies in criminal defendants . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not accused of being a terrorist . She was detained and questioned due to what people deemed suspicious activity on a day where there was a threat of terrorism . <h> SilenceDogood <p> And the probably cause was what , exactly ? It was either a ) that she is brown or b ) she is brown and was sitting in a row with other brown people or c ) she is brown and was sitting in a row with other brown people who also used the restroom . <p> Egads ! I had no idea that terrorists also use the restroom ! Well , I for one will now be reporting everyone I see on a plane using a restroom . Ca n't be too careful , you know . After all it is a post 9/11 world and people using the restroom need to be strip searched ! <p> Seriously , BB , if you are this afraid of 9/11 attacks , you just should n't leave your house . Seriously . You are more likely to choke and die on a peanut than you are to encounter @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , et . al . -- The law is very clear and nobody 's rights were violated . <p> The fourth amendment was not violated in that the report presented " exigent circumstance " that made the search legally valid . <p> The fifth amendment was also not violated in that no one was " held to answer " a term with very specific meaning referring . I quote , " A preliminary hearing is held to determine if there is sufficient evidence that the defendant committed the crime and should therefore be " held over " for trial . Once a defendant is " held to answer , " meaning in custody to answer charges , the prosecuting agency files a document called the Information . The defendant will subsequently be arraigned on the Information at which time he or she will enter a plea and proceed to trial . " http : **35;5740;TOOLONG ... <p> The sixth amendment was never at risk as it has to do exclusively with criminal prosecutions and rights at trial . Since no one was " held over " , and no indictment @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there is a right to face the accuser . Such a " right " does n't exist . <h> Brian <p> You talk to much . It 's not a " right " to fly . If you do , you follow the rules which are in place to make it as safe as possible . If you do n't like it , take the bus . And yes , it is sorry to say , that sometimes the color of someone 's skin causes more alarm than someone 's else skin color , but once again , deal with it . If you do n't like it , then move some place else where you feel safer . I would have reported it too . As a matter of fact I would have been on high alert for anything , anything at all which might seem a little odd . Including everytime you reached into your bag while they were in the bathroom . <h> Dan from NYC <p> As with all rights there is a limitation . Flying is a limited right not an unlimited one . Reading @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " ( b ) Use of Airspace . -- ( 1 ) The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall develop plans and policy for the use of the navigable airspace and assign by regulation or order the use of the airspace necessary to ensure the safety of aircraft and the efficient use of airspace . The Administrator may modify or revoke an assignment when required in the public interest . ( 2 ) The Administrator shall prescribe air traffic regulations on the flight of aircraft ( including regulations on safe altitudes ) for -- ( A ) navigating , protecting , and identifying aircraft ; ( B ) protecting individuals and property on the ground ; " <h> SilenceDogood <p> And just exactly how is strip and cavity searching someone AFTER the plane has landed SAFELY at its INTENDED FINAL DESTINATION allow for protection of individuals and property on the ground when the flight was safely completed as intended ? <p> How , exactly , does that work with your incorrect reading of the law ? <h> BayAreaBiker <p> Another bigot comment . It would have saved rest of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ comment too so that I could avoid sitting next to you if we happen to be on same flight or at the airport . <h> anonymous <h> Mark <p> No , Thomas Hamilton ... nobody should have to go through a " slight inconvenience " just because we are bombing the hell out of the Middle East . It 's not worth it . It starts with 1 person being inconvenienced , then 2 , then 10 , then 1,000 , then 100,000 then we are putting people of certain ethnic background into camps . Fascism will come to America wrapped in an American flag . You need to foresee the bigger picture when you say things like that , Thomas . <p> Not one person should ever have to go through what Ms.Shebshi went through . <h> James Jesse <h> David <p> Are we really at WAR ? We 've been battling a war on drugs for over 40 years and spent over $2.5 trillion dollars on it , yet have drugs been eliminated from our society ? Not even remotely . <p> We 've been fighting a war @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that time and it will continue to exist into the future . Our individual freedoms and liberty are being compromised for the sake of fighting this war . At what point do we say " enough " ? <p> Using the " we are at WAR " excuse is a convenient way to justify virtually any attack on the personal liberties that we in the US hold so dear in the first place . Whether it 's illegal wire tapping , unlawful detention or progressively unreasonable searches , we as a people are letting our freedoms erode in the interest of safety . <p> And just for some perspective , bask in these numbers . From 1994 to 2010 here are the number of people killed in the US from two different sources : <h> Libby <h> Donna <p> Why is it necessary to resort to this type of name-calling when Russ asked for a middle ground , a fine tuning of a system that makes mistakes ? I was annoyed to remove the knitted booties off of my 3 month old child at airport security , and would also @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Donna name calling only shows your ignorance . It 's not at all becoming . It is certainly your right to disagree with someone else 's viewpoint ; however , your behavior of name calling has no benefit at all and simply makes you look and sound ignorant . <h> Dave <h> Ken <h> Marnie <p> Come on now , Donna ... That is truly dangerous language , and even more un-American than anything he said . We each have the freedom to maintain , and voice our opinions ; and frankly , this comment indicates to me that you are not only probably less intelligent than he , but also morally deficient . Congratulations ! <h> Si <p> Donna , that was a pretty nasty comment . He did n't say anything wrong , just his opinion , and all you have is slander . As far as what happened , do I think she was violated and humiliated ? Absolutely ! But the catch 22 is unfortunately , if you see something that looks a bit odd and it is a day where everyone is especially on guard @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with the possibility it might a real threat , or do you go for help ? I do believe there was a better way to handle this and allay fears without putting this poor woman and those other 2 men in handcuffs , but I do n't have the answer as to how . To those that claim there was nothing suspicious about those men going to the bathroom , you were n't there , and you can only really see this story from her perspective . It might have looked odd to the crew for two men , sitting close together , and of the same ethnicity to get up and go to the bathroom at the same time and then take a bit longer than normal . The fact is we had warnings of the original 9/11 and we ignored them . Well people are n't ignoring it anymore . There were other indicators of possible attacks on the anniversary , should we ignore those too ? We are the only country with the kind of freedoms that we have , and we should n't let others change @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but the other side is that because we have these freedoms , we are also a very easy target . So how do we balance this , so we maintain our American ways , respect our rights , and still be protected ? It is a very difficult balancing act . I was in the military during 9/11 and was an Arabic linguist/analyst and it was very difficult then to make good decisions . It is a very convoluted situation . Who attacked us on 9/11 ? ... extremists who happened to be of Arab descent . So who do we look at to attack us again ... those of Arab descent . Are there other terrorists of other nationalities ? Of course there are , and we should always be alert , but the fact is that there was not a single terrorist attacker on 9/11 who was not an Arab . Please understand , I am not saying anyone was wrong , I feel for this poor woman , but I also understand why things happened as they did . Instead of simply saying that people acted inappropriately @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Pointing the finger is a waste of time and does n't get to the heart of the problem . To Mrs Hebshi , I am so sorry that you were put through that . I ca n't imagine what you must be feeling and I hope that you can find some peace . <h> WE DARE <h> wri7913 <p> Your comment only shows how vulgar and idiotic you are . Nothing more . As Russ said , and I concur , I am glad there is a system in place to report incidences but obviously it does need to be refined . People also need to be vigilant but not overactive in their fears . People like Shoshana need to be more aware of their activities especially on a day like 9/11 while flying . People 's fears will obviously be heightened due to possible followup terrorists strike . It has n't happened yet but the Press was making references to the Government 's heightened state of alert due to a possible strike . <p> Are people of Arabic descent going to be profiled on planes ? You bet . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ( in the last 50 years ) of airline terrorism . Sorry but that is the honest truth here . <h> M <p> wri7913 says , " People like Shoshana need to be more aware of their activities especially on a day like 9/11 while flying . " <p> Who exactly are " people like Shoshana ? " Women ? Ohio residents ? People who are half Arab ? People who are half Jewish ? What if you 're 1/4 something ? 1/8 ? What if you 're 100% Indian and the only thing you have in common with Shoshana is that you 're not white ? <p> And what exactly were her activities ? Reading ? What can and ca n't she read ? Sleeping ? What if I can never sleep on a plane ? Playing with her phone ? Are some games ok but others not ? Texting while on the ground -- can I do that if I 'm brown even if the captain says it 's ok to turn on cell phones ? How many white people around me need to be using electronic equipment @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? <h> Tony S <p> I think that you and others are missing/ignoring some important points . <p> First , while there needs to be a way to report suspicious activities , the response to such a report should be a reasonable one . What Mrs. Shebshi , and her two fellow travelers were subjected to was not reasonable . <p> Second , please remember that our Constitution is the foundation and the framework for all of our laws , If those laws fail to protect all of our people , then we have a problem that needs to be addressed . As Allison pointed out earlier , the 4th Amendment was probably violated . Mrs. Shebshi was forcibly detained and restrained based on someone reporting " suspicious activity " , Does anyone remember the major details of the Salem witch trials ? Women were tortured and killed based upon the accusation that they were a witch . Before I get accused of missing the obvious , I would like to point out the basic parallels . It only took an accusation to have someone detained ( ie , locked @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the accused were thoroughly interrogated ( tortured ) before their trial to try to extract a confession . Failing that , the accused was sent before a judge who did one of two things . He either ordered the accused be tested , such as being bound and thrown into a large enough body of water , or , if the testimony were convincing enough , the judge would order the accused to be executed . I 'm not going to beat this one to death , I 'll leave it to you to find the parallels . <p> While I understand and accept the need for investigating reports like this , there are many other ways to respond . Especially that whole ordeal about the strip search ! Someone posted that the blog posting said nothing about a body cavity search , and how it was completely different than a strip search . My question , why would you perform a strip search if not to perform a body cavity search ? <p> Last , airport security did n't suddenly appear following the events on 9-11 . Beginning in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ commercial airlines with the intent of monetary/political gain . It was following those incidents that airport security became an issue that mattered to the general public . In addition to this , terrorists began a bloody campaign ( mostly in Europe ) of random killings to bring attention to whatever cause they were supposedly supporting . <p> Eventually , the terrorists moved there attacks globally , including to the US . Did you know that there were several terrorists attacks on US soil by the Croatian nationalists prior to 9-11 or the breakup of Yugoslavia ? They generally did n't do much damage , but still , think you can racially profile them ? To accuse people of Arabic descent of being responsible for 50 years of airline terrorism borders on being racist . Making these types of comments without first doing a bit of research does n't provide security , it only reinforces distrust and fear . <p> We all need to stop the rhetoric and start thinking for ourselves . The Republicans are n't going to save us , and neither will the Democrats . Demand real solutions @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at all costs " . Not everyone that has dark skin is a terrorist , or sympathetic to terrorists , or , from another country . <p> It seems curious to me that many of the people advocating the stricter searches and diminishing liberties in the name of more security are white . <p> What about the people actually subjected to the searches ? <p> I wear a turban . I went to the Mall of America the other day with my mother and sister . I went to see a movie , and two police officers pulled me from the theater . They questioned me . Apparently they received multiple calls from people frightened by me in the mall , and had been following me for a few hours . <p> Who 's really shouldering the cost of this " increased security " ? <p> By the way , over the past decade , the number of deaths worldwide at the hands of Islamic Extremists , outside war zones , comes to some 200 to 300 individuals per year . For comparison , during the same period more people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the United States alone . Attributed to a friend . <p> So , bathtubs have in the last decade slightly more dangerous to the American public than islamist terrorism . In addition to the erosion of civil liberties and public relations , the war on terror has cost trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives , mostly civilians . What resources are being used in to preserve bathing security ? <h> SB <p> Sarah can not bring herself down to respond to you as you have now provided some corroboration . Of course , she would never have bothered to check , if there is a grain of fact in the post she responded to either . She will conveniently ignore the thread from hereon . <h> SANKAR <p> Are you white ? If a white guy points a finger to the dark skinned person especially at the airport or inside an aircraft it will ring the bell all over . If you belong to that race then you would know it . It is not for protection . It is sheer racism intended to divide the people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the mind of citizens so that all will stay silent although being wiped out due to depression created by the bank racketeers . The biggest terrorism of the century . At this day , terrorism is just a joke but the crooks are still attempting to revive it by spreading fears . Obviously , it is a huge profit making business . <h> eye on the ball <p> SPOT ON ! Three cheers for being the first commenter to point this out . Counterterrorism is a MASSIVELY profitable business and it is absolutely in the best interests of many to perpetuate our fears . And it DOES distract us from real abuses carried out by other industries , including profiteering in the financial industry , to keep Americans focused on " Homeland Security " instead of investigating banking crimes . <p> Do people not remember what " Give me liberty or give me death " means ? It means our " founding fathers " would rather have been DEAD that be subjected to the kind of treatment this poor woman describes in her blog post . So to every @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ worth it " in exchange for the " safety " it brings to America -- they need to realize they are in total conflict with the brave people , real patriots , who fought a revolution to bring us this country , and everyone else since them who has fought for civil liberties . <h> Dave <p> Although I agree that it sucks to have to go through this type of thing , I lean toward the fact that it is way better to be safe than sorry . If one has not awakened to the fact that our world is a dangerous place after what happened on 9/11 then one must be asleep at the switch . We , as Americans , have a group of animals out there that care not for their own lives but instead care about how many of us they can kill . All it takes is one of them to get through security and people will die , that is why it is important for all of us to be vigilent and aware of what goes on around us . This is what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ activity onboard that aircraft . The sad fact is that the majority of Americans can not tell the difference between someone from India as opposed to someone from Saudi Arabia . Right after 9/11 there was a murder of a sikh man because the guy who shot him thought he was an arab . Americans should be educating themselves about the different peoples living in the middle east/southwest asia so that they can make more informed decisions in their vigilence . That vigilence is a necessary evil that we must live with because we are at war with an ideology . <h> Renee <p> Russ I totally agree with you . Although I feel that the behavior for suspicion was n't there , I do find comfort that in the event a real threat was presented it would be investigated . I agree that she was treated unfairly . However , 10 years ago some suspicions were ignored . And unfortunately we all have to live with the consequences . <p> Questioning you would not eliminate the threat if there was one . It was our inaction of on 9/11 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is being cautious we are going to fault them as well . Where do you purpose the middle ground lays here , Without all the accusations and conjuncture of profiling , what would be a better solution ? Simply questioning you , if you were a terrorist , I am sure you would be completely honest and forthright in your confession as soon as someone pulled you out of line . <p> I have to question anyone 's decision to fly on 9/11 , especially since several planes are being escorted by fighter jets , that could misread a sign of trouble mechanically with a terrorism attack and end up badly . <p> Is it racist or bigoted , the case and point could be made either way . If the police suspect me of a felony in another state but have not confirmed that fact , they have a time frame as to which they can hold me in a cell and be lawful . <p> So let 's do what you suggest , Let 's grab some white guys and yank them off the plane , Why ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do n't want everyone to feel like we are singling them out unfairly so we will waste resources and money on a group or people that pose no credible threat right now . <p> Perhaps it was racist , but like everything in life it is not all or nothing , the blame lies with you just as much as it does with the FBI . Your decision to fly on 9/11 being of a certain race , does n't show sound judgment . If not for any other reason but then being target practice for a pilot . <h> Johnathane Dorane <p> Thanks for your post Tina . Now I completely understand that it is entirely the victims fault . She should have known that because of her genetic heritage she would not be able to fly on 9/11/2011 without being detained for several hours and strip searched . <p> Are you one of the people who believe that rape would not be a problem if girls stayed out of bad neighborhoods ? <p> Your solution is to grab white people of the plane and subject them to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't have a good reason " . Please clarify what the " good reason " was for treating these three people this way . For reference , I will not accept " Your decision to fly on 9/11 being of a certain race " as a " good reason " . <p> I hope that this case goes to court , because I want to see the justification for detaining , strip searching , and questioning three innocent airline passengers . If this is not determined to be a gross violation of the fourth amendment , then nothing will . <p> It 's not a result of terrorism alone . The fear that caused someone to report " suspicious activity " was bred over the next eight years after 9/11 , heightened not by terrorist actions but by people in our own homeland . The paranoia of people was selectively targeted , used , and aggravated by political maneuvers , which has left a lot of people with ugly fears about dark-skinned people , particularly of Middle Eastern descent . These people are too simple to have any measure of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ like rats in an electrified cage , and they do what they 're told , whether they 're being told that African-Americans have to go to school with them or whether they 're being told that possible Muslims should be watched carefully in case they 're terrorists . So no , the terrorists did n't cause all of this alone ; a bunch of opportunists did the greatest amount of damage inside our own borders . <p> Shoshana -- if I can presume to call you by your first name , not knowing you -- I 'm terribly sorry that this happened to you , and I 'm terribly glad that you decided to write about it . Information and expression are freedoms we need to cherish . <h> Dave Mowers <p> Perhaps the United States should stop training terrorists and supporting dictatorships in foreign countries then we would n't have people who want to attack us ! What was the excuse for shooting the Iraqi family with eight children to death including a newborn and two toddlers , recently brought under investigation ? You think their extended family loves @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people murdered by U.S. supported dictators love our country ? Do parents of children dying from cancer caused by depleted uranium in Iraq love us ? When your government murders in your name you get terrorist atrocities in return , maybe we should be asking ourselves why it is happening instead of arguing about the reactions to it . <p> ' Inconvenienced ' and ' humiliated ' ? ? She was given a body cavity search ! Why do n't you volunteer for one after being dragged of a plane and handcuffed and come back and tell us us " at least there are efforts ... to keep us safe " . Puhlease . <h> George Metesky <p> This is completely disgusting . Please accept my apologies on behalf of my lunatic government ( and the crazy people in Detroit who did this to you ) . On Sept. 9th , I was visiting New York City and Penn Station looked like it had been invaded by an attacking army ... only it was our own police , in every nook of the station with loaded AK-47s ready to fire @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out on an obviously drunk Hispanic man just because he was speaking loudly and obnoxiously ( imagine that , in New York City ! ) . Personally , I would rather live in a country where we suffer a terrorist attack every once in a while than in a perfectly safe country where power is abused the way it is currently being done . And this is with a liberal , minority-member President . Just imagine what would happen if we had elected someone scarier and more militaristic ? <h> DW <p> While I agree that this is completely disgusting the rest is shortsighted and incorrect . You DO live in a country that suffers terrorist attacks every day . You just do n't see them because they are masked as attacks on our information infrastructure . And they do n't directly cause the loss of life -- they threaten to expose the security infrastructure that your tax dollars pay to maintain . <p> Fly into most any international airport in Europe , or go to a major train station and it 's very commonplace to see the military all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the ability to walk freely with little expectation of death and destruction should be thanking those military personnel for deciding to take on this charge on their own . Last I heard there was no draft forcing them to ! <p> And I highly doubt that you really mean you would tolerate a terrorist attack with loss of life occasionally . It would likely take only one bomb going off in your neighborhood , frightening the bejeebeez out of you , or the death of a loved one or friend someplace else to change your opinion . <h> DW <p> You do n't think they are ? Seriously ? And you know this because ... they handed you a flower and chanted the last time you were in Europe ? Military presence in major European transportation centers are part of their culture . I saw it as far back as my first trip to England in 1980 ! <p> Further , I 'd disagree with you about itching for a fight . The very highly trained military people I know are n't interested in shooting people on their own soil @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they are trained and sworn to do : Defend us from enemy 's foreign and domestic . <p> The cause of this incident was n't started by the military . It seems it was a civilian who provided the faulty Intelligence that scrambled jets and caused strip searches . The military simply responded just like they were trained . <p> Again , I 'm sorry and saddened that this happened to her and her seat partners . But if you want to point a finger and find fault , point at the radicals that are n't interested in building anything -- but only tearing things apart at any cost . And then at the highly under-trained " official reporters " who stir themselves into hysteria . If we were living in a hysterical society , we 'd have curfews and be walking around with flak jackets . <p> And lastly , if this was a trained Air Marshall or some other military individual on board that evaluated this situation and made the decision to move forward with this threat , then they need serious retraining -- and maybe a new @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ saying the same thing . You assume that a police force is ill equipped/trained to protect the law abiding citizens it 's charged to protect . I 'd counter and tell you that a very high percentage of these individuals are former military , and are incredibly well trained . And for the most part well lead . In fact , I 'm related to two highly trained soldiers-turned-police officers who put their life on the line every day . Are there bad apples out there ? You bet . But there are bad apples everywhere . Bernie Madoff comes to mind ... <p> It 's not perfect , but I 'll take this imperfect government over all the rest . <h> SilenceDogood <p> A well-trained force with bad apples strip and cavity searches innocent people . They also accidentally shoot people once in a while . <p> There is a reason Rome forbade a standing military , and would n't let it parade in the city . When a militarized police force is allowed to occupy a city , it does n't matter how many wonderful people are in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . That 's why when Caeser brought a triumphant military through the city the Senate was appalled . They knew what it meant . It meant the end of a free Republic . <h> DW <p> A well-trained force with bad apples strip and cavity searches innocent people . They also accidentally shoot people once in a while . <p> There is a reason Rome forbade a standing military , and would n't let it parade in the city . When a militarized police force is allowed to occupy a city , it does n't matter how many wonderful people are in the force , it is a force occupying a city . That 's why when Caeser brought a triumphant military through the city the Senate was appalled . They knew what it meant . It meant the end of a free Republic . <p> That is a recipe for disaster . ... The British-English influence surfaces ! Now I get it ! <p> Yes , I concede that accidentally strip searching someone is less deadly that accidentally shooting people once in a while . But neither is acceptable @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , shall we ? Caeser marched on the city , the Senate was appaled . It was a civil war . Ceaser wanted control , and the senate fled . Is our military at war with our Senate ? I do n't think so . And did n't we fight that battle some years ago ? Something about Union and Confederate ? Hmmm ? <h> Brian <p> Agreed . Just yesterday , someone on my Facebook list left a vitriolic comment regarding Muslims . He just can not grasp the difference between Islam and what the radical fundamentalists believed in . It saddens and frightens me that ten years later , we 're still stuck in this rut. <h> laars <h> Mel <p> I do feel pity for you if your actually innoccent , but I am glad extreme measures were used . No offense , but if most of us had it our way , every single middle eastern person would be deported from Canada and the US . Sorry , but amongst the innocent are the terrorists and we just cant tell you apart and thats what they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your sentiment . Do n't speak for " most of us . " You are in your own body and mind , not others . Speak for yourself . This comes from someone whose parent died doing research to decontaminate and demilitarize chemical and biological agents stockpiled for wars . <h> Abbe Lakenville <h> Theonlypatriothere <p> Let 's get real people . The good of the many outweigh the good of the few . It took what , 6 hours ? It was n't pleasant I 'm sure , but get over it people . Had there been a bomb , and had it gone off , you would all be screaming about how poorly our security teams did their jobs ! Make no mistake people , THIS is the price of your safety . They took a small amount of your time , they did not harm you , and they did what the situation required . I can understand that a strip search is not exactly pleasant , but I promise , it wo n't kill you . Everyone wants to reap the benifits of being a citizen @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for it . You picked your representatives people , time to deal with it . <h> Allison <p> No , we do not need to accept the random violation of a person 's Constitutional rights based on unsubstantiated reports of unspecified suspicious activity from untrained civilians who are not questions about the veracity of their suspicions . <h> Gump <p> Apparently you do . Fact is , Islamic extremists do n't fight war with any appropriate rules of engagement . They fight dirty and cowardly . They sneak around dressed as civilians to kill as many civilians as they can . They are the hardest form of war to fight , and the direct result of that is the difficulty of having to watch the public for signs of suspicious behavior . There are going to be mistakes . I 'd much rather be detained knowing that the gov't is making hard choices to try and keep the plane safe , then for them to avoid racial profiling at all costs because it 's " rude or politically incorrect " , and simply hope that people who come from countries @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> You do n't have proof that they actually stopped you because of your race , it 's just the way you feel because you 're sensitive to it . If I was living in China , and a bunch of white catholic extremists killed 3000 random Chinese people in a day for no other reason than hate , I would be very cognoscente of the fact that I look like them , and would personally go out of my way to make sure they understood I was not the same . I certainly would n't act all high and mighty and exclaim , " How dare they ! " I 'd actually feel apologetic and feel embarrassed that people from where I come from have such audacity and ugliness . Just as I do for my ancestors in the time of American slavery . I think you need to stop blaming the U.S. for racial profiling and blame the Islamic extremists for creating this result . There is no other way to fight back and defend against this kind of war . <p> I 've been stopped and searched @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they were done , appreciating that they make sure I get on a safe flight . I 'm happy to be searched , I 'm happy to take off my shoes , and I thank them each and every time . Get on board . <h> Allison <p> Being stopped and searched on an airport check is not the same thing as being taken off of a plane in handcuffs in front of the rest of the passengers , placed in a dirty cell for several hours with no information , strip searched , cavity searched , and interrogated . If you would be fine with that , so what ? Others would n't , and that is not only their right , it 's the law under the Constitution of the U.S. That document that is the owner 's manual of the country . <p> Dark-skinned American citizens do not owe anything to white Americans just because they exist . Dark-skinned Americans have the same rights as white Americans , and do not have to kowtow to white American fears . <h> Cheri <p> Allison , did this happen @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Our world is what WE have made it through our self-absorbed attitudes and ungodly living . We get what we deserve ... Actually , thank God , we do n't get what we deserve ... for it is a lot worse than anything described within these posts . <h> David <p> If i remember correctly there where americans killed on 9/11 . Why do you have to have dark skin to feal what everyone is talking ? I am a white male who listens to country music and could be called a " REDNECK " .. Does this mean i hate all non-whites ? No it does nt , but the stero-type is that i do . Please do nt tell me that because you have a skin color that is not white you should be treated any different than anyone else . This is a case where protocol was used . Sadly what happen on 9/11 did nt not have the proper protocol followed or the planes would have never been hijacked . For all that havent noticed the man who has picked the people to run Home @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I just want to say that you are a hero in this comments section . Every uninformed remark that I have been sufficiently moved to reply to , you have already done so eloquently . Thank you and I laud your passion . <p> For the record , I 'm not an American citizen , not resident in the US , but love the principles your country has been founded on . Pity to see what it has become . <h> Allison <h> Anne <p> By " stopped and searched " do you mean that you were handcuffed , detained , and made to wait to in a dirty cell for hours at time while no one would tell you what was going on or why you 'd been pulled from your flight ? No . You mean that you were pulled aside while going through security and they opened up your suitcase and looked through it , looked at your shoes , and then sent you on your merry way . You have no idea what this woman and those two men went through , and it 's stupid @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ she 's talking about . <p> The ignorance of whoever reported them is astounding , but not surprising . What puts the icing on the cake for me , and I think for most of the other people here commenting is the fact that they were treated like common criminals based off of a tip from an untrained civilian who had nothing to support their claim other than , " They all look the same and two of them went to the bathroom close to the same time . " They could have at least told her what was going on , and why she 'd been pulled from the plane instead of ignoring her , or refusing to tell her and treating her like a criminal . Telling her what 's going on does n't jeopardize anything , if she were a terrorist she 'd already know what was going on anyway . They also did n't have to pull them from the plane the way they did . There are better , less humiliating ways to do that . And if you want to defend it , then @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they pull off of planes every year . Show me how many times doing that to people has stopped an actual danger , instead of humiliating innocent people who happen to " look like a terrorist " to the ignorant and racist eye . <p> Her experience was demoralizing , humiliating , and belittling , and until this has happened to you you should probably shut your maw . <p> PS : I think it 's hysterical that you say that she has no proof that she was pulled because of her race . Please , oh wise one , tell me why else someone would assume that three people sitting next to each other doing nothing but sitting would look suspicious to someone . Oh yeah , and also happen to be the same race . That 's just a coincidence right ? This happens to Caucasians as well all the time I bet . <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> The fact of the matter is , it is all bigotry and racial profiling . The extremists crashed into the towers because they hate Americans . My Japanese friends @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I know many people who hate all Germans due to Hitler . I am of Swedish descent and I dyed my hair black and due to this I got detained when I was picking someone up from the airport . I did n't even get out of my car . Oh , and I was driving a black German car . Or maybe I got profiled because I was driving an expensive car and the poor slob who detained me will never see the inside of a car like mine unless he stops them out of some fabricated notion he has regarding why he stops people . <p> It is all bigotry , pure and simple . <p> Oh , and to Donna and her comment about Russ , " Russ -- Why did so many good people die on 09/11 , and an idiot like you survive ? ? " Probably every person who died on that day would have Russ ' opinion now if they had survived . The fact is no one deserves to die because we do n't agree with their opinion . Chances are due @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ include some disagreeable people . They still did n't deserve to die . You , Donna , making that comment because his opinion is different than yours is no different than any other person who exhibits hatred due to someone having a different opinion than yours or a different lifestyle , looks different , is of another religious belief , etc. 9/11 happened because those people placed all Americans in a stereotypical fishbowl and because they do n't agree with certain Americans . Racial profiling is exactly the same . Maybe these three people did n't die , but they were tortured due to their ethnicity . <p> All people need to learn more tolerance . Law enforcement need to remember " innocent until proven guilty " and " probable cause . " I hope whoever reported that suspicious activity realizes that 2 fighter jets shadowed their airliner all of the way to the airport . Maybe those reporting suspicious activity also need to be detained and checked out . Are n't most witnesses to crimes checked to see what their motive is or checked for their credibility ? <h> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ many posters on here currently support the " enhanced security protocols " , solely because of what happened on 9/11 . I wonder what will happen the first time those protocols backfire , and result in a tragedy ? Will everyone support them so much then , or will people want to go to the opposite extreme ? What happened to common sense ? <p> In this case , the Airbus was being shadowed by two F-16 ? s . They were n't there for a parade . If certain of the " protocls " had been breached , that Airbus would have been shot out of the sky . So , what if the planes would hav picked that exact time to experience a major electrical failure ? What if the pilots would have needed to do a fly-by for a second approach ? What if one of them , being nervous , would have accidentally shuyt down the IFF , made a poor choice in on-air jokes , or done one of the dozens of other major mistakes that happen daily in our skies ? Sooner or later @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ trying to desperately to avoid -- another tragedy . And , in the process , we will give up our Constitutional rights as well . That 's a poor trade , to me . <p> There is a difference between inconvenience and violation of rights . The first we can live with , but not the second . We must keep our fear in balance , and regain some common sense . <h> New yorker <p> I could n't agree more she should be happy got was able to go home and see her family , those that perished on 9-11 did n't make it home ... Go back where your from and blame your own people .... Did it bother you that you were taken off plane well deal with it ... it was better to be taken off a plane than to have been blown up and never see your family agian . Your people came and killed our family did you think that everything was going to be okay NO it 's not . What happened to you is nothing compared to what happened to those innocent @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ she came from . " She 's American . Her own people did not participate in 9/11 . Blaming her for 9/11 just because she happens to share ethnicity with the people who flew the planes is racism , pure and simple . And in this case , SHE is the innocent one . <h> avery <p> not so sure about that . Do n't know you .... and based on your own bigoted and racist remarks ( " fat " , " fat belly " , " rednecks " ) , I do n't care to . <p> You are very offensive . <p> And it 's likely most people here do n't ' know you ' and what your real motivations are -- a bored housewife trying to get blog hits ( like a crack addict off a crack pipe ? ) .... a homegrown terrorist ( we 've had our share of those , too -- does n't matter if you are " American " or from mars ) ... what ? <p> do n't know .... do n't want to know . you were doing something @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do n't like the consequences so you are crying foul . It 's not a new phenomenon -- - many people getting caught not obeying the rules do the same thing -- - trying not to take responsibility for their OWN actions . <p> If you really want to teach your children something -- teach them to be responsible for themselves and not blame their situation on a made-up fantasy such as " racism " -- as your writings clearly show you are the racist . <p> And let it be known , plenty of people of ALL ethnic backgrounds have been shaken down by airport security . We just do n't whine about it . <h> Another New Yorker <h> Dina <p> New Yorker- You are a disgrace to the American people . People like you are the reason so many countries hate us . Before you tell people to go back to where they are from- take some pride in where you are from and LEARN HOW TO PROPERLY SPEAK ENGLISH . If you did n't notice there have been approximately two insulting comments written , but none @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . There is a better way to make your point without demanding that someone -- who is also an American , by the way- leave the country . " Her people " did not kill your family , as " her people " are not terrorists , the hijackers were . <h> Gideon V. <p> @new yorker " Your people " ? ! " Go back to where you 're from " Really ? ! What part of " her people " are you referring to ? The Arabic or the Jewish part ? Never mind , from your comments I gather that you do n't even realize there is a difference . Man , if people would only read and educate themselves a little bit before making comments like yours , the world would be a better place for sure ! <h> BayAreaBiker <p> Wow ! I am just shocked at the level of your ignorance . Her family came and blew up your family ? Which family are you talking about ? The White family ? or does it include all of Americans ? I am sure you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Shebshi your family too . <p> Thanks for enlightening us with your bigoted remarks . But do you know that there were two other folks got " detained " who were actually from Indian descent and along with her , their rights were violated too . Last time I checked , none of the Indians were involved in ANY terrorist attacks against US . Do you have the same thing to say to them also ? <h> e <p> " New Yorker " -- she is home , and I wish there were more people like her in this country than those filled with hate and bigotry like yourself . Her experience 10 years ago on that day was the same as everyone else in America -- sadness and disbelief . People of all races can and have done terrible things to others -- to think that we can blindly make judgments about entire groups of people based on the actions of some is insane . <p> I find it incredible how so many people seem to think that they can compare experiences of being pulled aside and searched in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Jen D <p> Just a reminder , New Yorker , that Shosi is an American citizen -- born and raised here . When you begin invoking " Your people " you cross the line . Her father was Saudi by birth , but lived here in the U.S. for the majority of his life . Her mother is an American . When you tell her to " go back where your ( sic ) from and blame your own people , " should she head back to Southern California ? Seriously ? <h> What To Do ? <h> Tony <p> Keep believing that Stacie , the Govt do nt give a damn about the people . oh you are going to see in the next couple of years what they have planned for all of us , They have already started a National I.D . card with chips in it , putting cameras all over the country , putting chips in our bodies with all of our information on it , Making it very hard for people to attain passports , Locking the borders on both sides not to keep @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ everyone who does nt think for themselves in fear . And for those of us who can see outside of the box and see what is really going on are called nut jobs , crazy and conspiracy theorist because we see and know what is really going on and choose not to go along with the rest of the Sheeple within the collective society of Idiots that easily fall prey to Manipulation . <h> Joe Jericho <p> Stacie , did you say the same thing during the Bush administration ? If you did not , you are a partisan hack . It 's ok for Obama to do it , but not Bush . There are people on the other side of the equation who would say that it was ok for Bush to do this but not Obama . It all makes me sick . IT IS N'T OK FOR EITHER ONE OF THEM TO DO THIS ! Wake up. ! <h> Jeannie <p> Stacie , I could not disagree with you more . Citizens with this attitude helped , yes I do mean helped , the followers of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ history of mankind . This is the same attitude that allowed the internment of American citizens of Japenese descent during WWII . It is NEVER ok to allow ANY abridgement to our constitutional rights , for ANY prupose . In this case there was an unreasonable search and this poor woman was incarcerated ( liberty ) . I am sure that if I called your local police station and ( without giving my name ) told them that you had bomb making equipment hidden away and were planning an attack and they then removed you from your workplace in handcuffs , strip searched you , locked you in a cell for 4+ hours without allowing you any contact with the outside world , repeatedly questioned you and then let you go saying " No hard feelings " you would be filing a lawsuit within minutes of your release . This entire episode is merely an illustration of how much we have all allowed our Constitutional rights to be infringed upon in the name of " security " . We should all be outraged that we have allowed this to happen @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Veteran who has personally deployed to these war zones you are misinformed if you believe there has been cooperation by these governments , or their people . The overwhelming majority of people in this region are raised and educated to hate Americans and Jews . This is a Fact ! I understand your points of view and respect your tenacity in defending them . I do agree that these individuals were racially profiled and their rights were violated . Being half Hispanic I emphasize with them , and realize if I were one of the three in that row I might have been in a cell along with them . This being said I understand the actions that were taken . Although it is unfortunate , it is also naive to think that others with a law enforcement or military background what not have had the same suspicions in that circumstance . I can tell you from experience that they would have . It 's not politically correct and it 's a sobering and incovienent truth but profiling is a necessary and successful tool . This has been the case @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ after . When profiling becomes wrong is when the intent is skewed . They were n't harassed simply because they were of ethnic decent . They fit a particular description on a particular day and happened to randomly commit an act that when compounded with all the factors did create reasonable suspicion . It 's no different than if a blond haired blue male robbed a bank the first 3 Fridays in a month , all similar males would be more scrutinized the 4th Friday . It 's unfortunate but reasonable . If these people would have been working together and had an explosive device , these posts would probably look a lot different as we thankfully honored this civilian for being observant and vigilant . We can have empathy for a person or group of people for an unfair situation but that does n't ultimately make the situation wrong . Let 's not blame the people trying to protect us . There is really only one group that deserves blame , The Terrorists .... <h> alytron <h> Ron <p> The US has several wars going on at the moment @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ women overseas protecting our freedoms . I say bullshit , I do n't think our freedom was ever threatened by these nations we 're at war with . Not to say that I do n't appreciate our military , I wish them the best , and they 're just doing what they 're told . But protecting our freedom at the moment , I do n't see it . <p> That all said , protecting the freedoms of US citizens also falls upon the shoulders of ordinary US citizens , so when you see some situation no matter how offensive , like when the KKK wants to peacefully assemble , you need to support it . I hate those bastards , but I support their 1st amendment rights . <p> I hope the blogger mounts a legal action and lets us know about it , I 'll certainly help support her . She definitely should 've lawyered up but there is absolutely no reason , based on what I 've read that they had probable cause to strip search her . <p> And frankly , anyone that will trade their @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is a continuous fight , but it is mostly fought at home . <h> Zoe <p> Do you really think that fear Americans have , is because of the terrorist destruction of the day 9/11 ? No The fear Americans have is rooted in the governments manipulation of the media . remember the daily color codes codes we had to deal with every day ? These so called " Terror Alerts " , caused Americans to live in fear up to the illegal unjustified , oil driven invasion of Iraq . The sudden growth and expansion of an actual International American Empire , came to fruition from this galvanizing of the fear of the citizens of our USA . This is a sad fact and very true . The largest untapped oil fields in the world lie in Iraq and Iran . Does anyone really think the USA can survive without taking these lands , in the event of some shortage ? NO . The answer is NO . So Bush and now Obama are protecting our oil interests abroad . Also noteworthy is the fact that Afghanistan has some @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , that are absolutely necessary for the manufacture of technology . Think we can do without those in a shortage ? No absolutely NOT . This is n't about justice or what is right . This is about hedging bets during a time of depleting resources and rising demand from the worlds increasing populations AND the need to protect a lifestyle that is dependent on these substances to survive . If oil and rare earth minerals and metals where to stop , we would be suddenly relegated to a lifestyle like that of colonial America , without the established skill sets . With an increased population , and a short supply of all energy producing material ( including wood ) , complicated by the inability to transport , a very quick spiral into hunger and death would occur . This is the concern behind the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq , This invasion is also to surround Iran and keep it in check , ready to pounce if need be : eg ; nukes , need oil . The profiling and nabbing of people here in the states is to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do not believe this is right . But I do know that this is what is happening . I believe their are other ways to get along , peaceful ways that build trust . This is all very sad , yet with our youth there is hope and we must teach them that peace is the only answer . We must teach billions of people to help each other . How ? I do not know . Watch the documentary W. on hulu . It shows what happened , all of the planning and hubris , all of the capitulation . None of these people were heroes . As a matter of fact they were killing hundreds of thousands and walking around like a bunch of morons planning it all . The movie W. is a perfect example of why war should only be used for actual self defense against invasion , or an attack by an actual nation using real weapons . You ca n't have a war against an idea , because the fighting will last until the idea is gone , which in this case since war @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a joke , it is real . The United States Of America , my only home , will have troops in Afghanistan , Iraq and possibly other places , forever ? Until a new source of energy is established ? what ? What is this ? I am also afraid to say anything here for fear of big brother . But I will be an American and say my piece , Freedom of Speech protected by the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States Of America , is my right and I will defend it by using my right . <h> The Mommy Lane <p> Reading this post broke my heart . Words can not express how sorry I am that this happened . My heart goes out to you and I hope that you will be able to move on from this without too many scars . The effects of racism are powerful and they can change who you are as a person . <h> Ranti <p> I am 30 yrs old , I am a family physician and I am also African.Let us call a spade @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is racial profiling , period . <p> As a frequent visitor to the US , I have over time and out of necessity , become somewhat immune to the frustrating and sometimes inane questioning &; searching that I 've had to endure at point of entry into this great country , simply because of my skin colour and the colour of my passport . <p> However , on my most recent visit here , the treatment was so appalling , I was almost left in tears . I had flown in from Heathrow in London , and as I was passing through immigration to get onto a connecting flight to DC from Miami , I was stopped and questioned 3 times for no apparent reason at all , but as the only non-white person on that plane , it was n't rocket-science to figure out why . <p> After the third dude had finished questioning me , I was aksed to follow him and as we were walking down the corridor towards a room , I politely asked him what was going on and if whatever was going to happen @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be boarding in about 40 mins.Without so much as a glance at me , he barked &; said " Sir , I do n't care . You could be there for 20mins or you could be there for 4 hours , it is what it is " . <p> So I was led into this room and as I walked in , I observed that there were about 60 other people in that room -- and what was so immediately obvious was that apart from myself there were 4 other black people in there with the rest being hispanic , so clearly , nothing " random " about this " stop &; search " then . I was kept in there for about 2 and a half hoursand eventually when I was called to the desk , the questions asked were the SAME ones the previous 3 guys had asked me -- " Why are you here ? ' . " What do you do ? " , " How long are you here for ? " , " You were in this country 3 times last year , how @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " ( Well , because I can afford it , duh ! ! ) , that plus the fact that I 've got family here- I was at my brother 's graduation from Harvard , I was best man at my friend 's wedding in Texas and I also came later on in the year for a medical conference in New York . There you go all explained , the barking at me was totally unnecessary as was the suspicious tone &; manner in which the questions were yelled at me . By this time of course , I 'd not only missed my scheduled connecting flight , but also 2 other connecting flights I could potentially had got on , my checked-in luggage had already gone ahead to my destination airport , and I did n't get into my final destination until 3:30 a.m the next morning -- at another airport miles away from where my luggage had gone ( my previous scheduled arrival barring this incident was to have been 6pm ) . It was an altogether very unpleasant experience and made me reflect on whether I wanted @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ each trip from Europe with ticket fare , hotel stay , spending money etc , usually costs me at least $2,000 . That 's $2,000 to the US economy each time I come here , but if i 'm going to be made to feel as if I must be up to no good simply because of my skin colour , then is it really worth it ? Might it not be better to take my tourist dollars to say Bahamas for example , at least there I know I wo n't be humiliated for being " different " . No one is saying Homeland Security should n't do their job , and post 9/11 , I understand the paranoia that 's quite prevalent in the society these days . But there must be a way in which the job can be done more efficiently &; competently and certainly more courteously , with respect and dignity to the passenger/traveller . Not all visitors to the US bear malicious intent towards this great nation , and certainly not all " non-white , non-American " nationals of other great countries are terrorists @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ unpleasant experience that you had to go through Hoshana , I am very happy and applaud you for sharing your experience and thus helping to initiate and generate debate and discussion on this topical issue . <p> The bitter truth of the matter is that this sort of thing happens ALL to the time to those of us who are " different " on account of descent or accent . Our stories never get told because we are " foreign " and so therefore in some way , in does n't matter the way we are treated , because we do n't matter , we do n't have a voice . <h> Anne <p> They have not accomplished that task . Accomplishing this task would not generate over 300 supporters of this post and 1,726 responses . The world is evolving into one of dialogue and communication . How many individual people around the world respond to a community 's aid in the face of devastation ? This past Sunday I decided to read up on 9/11 -- not the political rhetoric , but what people did and how they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I was amazed . <h> Alicia Chandler <p> I hate it , but I have to agree with your point of the terrorists winning by turning Americans and people in general against each other , based on race and/or ethnicity . <p> Thank you so much for sharing your horror with us , to make us all aware of what is happening to innocent people all the time . Unfortunately , we sometimes need a reminder , and I hate that it was at your expense , and the expense of the other two gentlemen who went through it with you . I pray that you will be able to ' be the bigger person ' , and expect that you are , by not hating all of us for the bigots and jerks that ARE out there . Hugs and prayers , <h> Abhi <p> Personally , as a non-american , I can completely understand a country that was attacked by a bunch of foreigners , conducting racial-profiling ... of foreigners . But when some geniuses decide that the response to terrorists from another country blowing up stuff , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ criminals , it starts seeming surreal . How hard would it be to just maybe casually check the " suspects " for weapons and isolate them while you checked if they actually were citizens or not ? If they are citizen how does anything else matter ? How many americans participated in 911 exactly ? <p> I could totally understand if I as a foreigner was treated as a suspect . Hey , I have all the choice in the world to not to travel to USA . I mean the country was attacked by foreigners , so I may not like to be treated like this , but I can at least understand . <p> But why should an American citizen be understanding about this ? Why should they cooperate ? <p> And what is even more surreal is that majority of Americans will actually accept this kind of logic and take it lying down . Why is no one actually asking their representatives , why the government is treating its own citizens as potential terrorists ? Why is no one asking Obama this question on Live TV ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from a non-American citizen . I also believe that if this happened to an American flying to another country , there would be a lot of yelling and self-righteousness about how dare they detain me , etc . But , for an American , in America , its just taken as if its for the ' Good of the General Population ' . Those bleak futures spoken about in 1984 and Brave New World are coming true and America is the leader . <h> Cassandra <p> " I also believe that if this happened to an American flying to another country , there would be a lot of yelling and self-righteousness about how dare they detain me , etc . " <p> Exactly . Imagine three American white dudes getting pulled off a plane in Jordan , or China , and being arrested and interrogated for six hours . The American press would go absolutely apeshit . <p> But the scariest thing about this is the ( nice ) FBI agent mentioning that there had been 50 similar incidents that day . This is not a unique story that we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sorry " . This is something that happened to one intelligent , eloquent woman with a blog who wanted to share her story , and about a hundred other people who we have n't heard from , who probably want to forget the entire thing . It 's not an freak accident -- this is how Homeland Security works , and it is beyond ridiculous . According to the AP article , the government sent two fighter jets to " escort " the plane into Detroit . Because there were too many brown people in one place , and one of them had the drizzling shits during the flight . Terrifying , really . <p> I think as an immigrant who is now an American citizen ( and well aware of American history and culture ) , I concur with Abhi 's words . American citizens should not take this lying down or without clothes . The person should sue the government and take it to the Supreme Court and get them to rule on this issue , and who knows , a court may well find these kinds of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one is doing this since they do n't have the resources to deal with the legal system ( which has become a travesty ) . So unless you can fight your own case or unless you 're rich enough to hire a good lawyer , you 're hosed . <h> JackRabbit <p> Our " representatives " are not ( and have not for some time ) representing us . They speak for their bank accounts and special interest groups . They do n't care about what happens to the average American so long as they get theirs . <h> Finisterre <p> Wait , what ? So it 's not OK for Shoshana to be arrested and humiliated , likely because of her ethnicity , because she 's an American citizen , but it would be absolutely fine for a *non-American* person to be arrested and humiliated because of their ethnicity ? <p> This is *exactly* the same thinking that caused this disgusting incident to happen to Shoshana . Racial profiling is wrong because it targets innocent people for very nasty harassment on unacceptably vague and ineffective grounds . What happened @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or not . It is not an effective way of preventing terrorism and it is certainly not the action of a liberal , rational state . <h> Chris <h> In Respect <p> Abhi , thank you for your comment . As an American , I appreciate your appreciation of why racial profiling is a logical course of action to take . To your question , a couple of the latest attempted attacks were by American citizens with ties to terror groups and if I recall , there was some indication that attempts on the anniversary might be by " home grown terrorists " . <h> Lisa <p> Unfortunately , we have terrorists here in our own country that are citizens and who choose to follow some anti-American train of thought . Whether American citizens or not , any form of terrorist is not something anybody in any country should have to deal with . With that being said , it is horrible that this woman underwent this treatment . It 's like seeing somebody on the street and assuming they are a gang member because of the way they look @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ newest form of biggotry has come at the expense of those of middle-eastern heritage . Even President Obama has had to endure such prejudice even after he has won an election and is trying to run a country . I hope this helps us all to become more accepting of others ... even if they look like they are middle-eastern . Just like every other generalization , just because their skin is darker or they look a certain way , does n't mean that are going to do harm to anyone or anything . <h> Chris <p> did you know that at least one of the terrorists who help hijack one of the airlines was an american citizen and had been living in america legally practically his whole life ? he had 2 kids and a wife and lived in florida . but yet you ask why us americans treat our own citizens like this its because of people like that terrorist . just because your a citizen does nt mean your here because you love the country . and that goes for any race for those people who like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> So , it is your opinion that all American citizens should be strip searched and cavity probed either before , during , or after flying , yes ? I mean , if you are making the argument that one of the 9/11 terrorists was an American citizen , then all American citizens need to be searched and interrogated the way Ms. Shebshi was , according to that logic . <p> Unless you are making the argument that only SOME American citizens should be searched and interrogated , and certainly you are n't making that argument , are you ? <h> Ron <p> Well .. looking nervous is fairly normal when there is a threat of a finger going up your butt . And what paperwork ? , flying domestically in the US no ID is required , you will definitely be held up without it , but you can freely travel from Maine to California by bus with no formal ID , flying is no different . <h> Allison <p> My comments were based on " Chris " ' s original posts , the first part of which is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ least one of the terrorists who help hijack one of the airlines was an american citizen and had been living in america legally practically his whole life ? he had 2 kids and a wife and lived in florida . but yet you ask why us americans treat our own citizens like this its because of people like that terrorist . " <p> My assumption , based on that post , is that " Chris " was saying that because one of the 9/11 terrorists was an American citizen , it was okay to target American citizens for Constitutional rights violations . If " Chris " was saying something else , it was not clear what that was . <p> Ms. Shebshi 's paperwork was not at issue , nor was her demeanor at issue . She was reported for suspicious activity for sitting in the same row as men of Indian descent . <h> Justin <p> Allison , millions of American citizens who have the appearance of possible middle eastern decent , myself included have been aboard air planes since 9/11 . These people are not routinely strip searched @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ unique circumstances . I belief your views are coming from a noble place , but it does n't seem as if you are able to step back and view this particular incident objectively . Although everybody should be empathetic for these individuals involved , I think most rational people who are able to put aside political correctness and be honest with themselves would admit that the particular circumstances of this incident would create reasonable suspicion . <h> Allison <p> The particular circumstances of this incident create reasonable suspicion how ? Simply because Ms. Shebshi was sitting in the same row as two other dark-skinned individuals ? What did Ms. Shebshi do that fit the description of suspicious activity ? <p> Just because every single dark-skinned flier is n't strip searched and interrogated does n't mean that we should n't be outraged when racial profiling is done for some of them . <h> Joe Jericho <p> I do n't get this comment either . I am looking at this objectively and asking questions , which is what Allison is doing . Obviously , Allison is concerned not only with this incident @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ here . I am also concerned about this . Clearly , there are not enough facts known for you to conclude that there was reasonable suspicion in this case . The blog entry does n't demonstrate the facts , but neither does the AP story . I want to know more . In the meantime , it sounds like some other passenger(s) reported " suspicious activity " . What does that mean ? Should the government have to articulate to the aggrieved what that suspicion was or what it constitutes ? This is a dangerous situation that is used in Cuba all the time to go in and ransack people 's homes and lives . Seemingly , we are but a step away from that . I have a problem with that . <h> Tony S <p> I 'm one of those US citizens who appears to be of middle eastern descent , though I 'm of Italian and Mexican heritage . Prior to 9-11 I was frequently stopped by airport security for additional checks , including having my laptop case swiped with a card to check for chemical residue @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it was just plain annoying . My being stopped meant my co-workers had to wait for me , or worse , they would be checked as well . <p> Following 9-11 , my first few trips through airport security were much different . My first flight was just after planes were allowed to fly again , and there were some in the media warning of racial profiling . During that first trip , not only was n't I checked , when I passed the security personnel that checked bags for chemical substance , the officers actually turned away from me . While it was a nice change , I did n't think it was going to last . It did n't . <p> Not long after , I was almost always taken aside for extra screening at the main checkpoint , and occasionally had the " X " on my ticket that identified me as someone who had to be checked at the gate as well . It would sometimes take me a half hour to get through security from start to finish , not counting the time I spent @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be just a progression in making the flying public feel more secure , I soon came to resent all the extra attention . So did my co-workers . <p> While my experiences were n't as extreme as Mrs. Shebshi 's , it was apparent to me that things were going too far . People should n't have to go through this , not in the USA . It 's not what we stand for , and none of us should accept it as the price to pay because some people wish to live in fear . <p> At no time does law enforcement have a right to invade our physical self without due cause . And last I heard , an unsubstantiated allegation is considered hearsay , not due cause . <p> if you 're willing to give up your Constitutional rights , including the right to privacy and the assumption of innocent until proven guilty , be my guest , but do n't demand the same from me . <h> Charls Martel <p> Correct , there is no way to tell if someone is a terrorist by Citicenship. @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you have evidence of the contrary ( that is , no us citien engages or will engage in a form of terrorism ) . <p> in the end the moral of the story should be about how everyone should get along , because it is not about the rules we put into place doing what they were designed to do . <h> Joe Jericho <p> With all due respect , that is because you just are n't aware period . Again , I 'd like to know where an anonymous report leads to a strip search without more reasonable suspicion . Obviously , they searched her to see if she had a device or explosive on her person , right ? I mean , what other technical explanation for the search ? She was screened by TSA . They can check her hands and garmets for explosive residue . They can do an enhanced pat-down , but no , they wanted to do the strip search . Why ? You do n't know why , but the government does and I want to hear the explanation . Maybe TSA Bob @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) . lol <h> Lance <p> 4th Amendment -- unreasonable search and seizure , based upon the report of " suspicious activity " ( which was merely sitting in her seat ) by a citizen with no applicable training to determine probable cause . <p> 6th Amendment -- the right to face your accuser . <p> A lesson in Constitutional law would serve you well . <h> Matt <p> We are a nation governed by the Rule of Law . That is the essence of a Republic . There are three sources of law in this country -- the United States Constitution , Congress , and Common Law as established through the precedents set by our court system . The last time I checked , the crashing of planes into buildings by foreign terrorists does NOT constitute one of those sources of law . It therefore does not grant legitimacy to measures which contradict our fundamental laws . <p> Presumption of innocence is a firmly established matter of Common Law in this country . Coffin v. United States firmly established that . It does not need a word-for-word presence in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> Your notion that " all individuals should be treated with equal suspicion . unless you have evidence of the contrary ( that is , no us citien engages or will engage in a form of terrorism ) , " is as unpatriotic and illegal as it is paranoid . <h> Susan <p> Have you read the Constitution ? Of course her rights were violated . Also I am not aware that any of the alleged highjackers were American . One lived in FL and worked for the NSA- Mohammed Atta- an Egyptian . But he was employed by our own gov.- the NSA . His father also claims to have gotten a call from him the day after 911. 7 of the alleged highjackers turned up alive and living abroad . One had died 2 years before . HOW CAN ANY GOV . HAVE MUGSHOTS of 19 men and have " solved the crime " within 2 days of the event before doing an investigation- especially when these 19 names were not on the official passenger lists- and where would they have gotten mugshots ? <h> Paul K <h> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ circumnavigating , if you look of Arabsub Asian descent and are a US cititzen you should accept to be treated differently . So much for equal rights and discrimination , but do nt worry ' " its for you 're own protection " <h> Grammar Clown <h> MrLee <p> OH NO SHE MADE A SPELLING ERROR ! ! Lets discredit everything they say because they used your instead of you 're ! ! Give me a break and grow the F up and get over it ! ! ! Anyways , I am very sorry for what happened to you Shoshana ! ! Like someone typed above " People have become so paranoid , scared of every shadow , every whisper that is n't government sanctioned . I am ashamed of people who react blindly . " <h> Chetan <h> Joe Jericho <p> That 's a good point . Right now , I am not familiar with it . I have just heard and seen a lot of white people and white kids getting groped at the airport , but I digress , I suppose it could be worse . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ feeling is that the government no longer works for us . It is us against them . They treat us as their subjects , and that is not the America I grew up in . <h> Kathy <p> our own citizens do plot against us ! ! There are Americans involved in terrorist activities . That is part of the problem ! ! I feel bad about this particular incident but I also understand where whoever reported this is coming from . I wish they would have watched more closely because if what you say is true ( never left your seat , did n't talk to anyone etc. ) than hopefully it would never had happened ! ! But I am very nervous to fly . And I do watch others very carefully when I 'm flying . I do agree a casual " check " would have been better . Americans come in all races and all nationalities and so I really do watch everyone ! ! <h> Allison <h> Justin <p> Allison please provide links to distinctly identifiable white Americans that hijacked air planes and flew them @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to similar looking distinctly identifiable white Americans being handcuffed and removed from a plane , strip and cavity searched , and interrogated because they randomly found themselves in a situation that provoked reasonable suspicion ... It 's not as simple as your trying to make it ! ! ! <h> K <p> In 1974 , a disgruntled white man walked into BWI , shot and killed an airport security guard and then proceeded to hijack an airliner for the sole purpose of flying it into the white house and killing the President . Does that sound at least similar to 9/11 ? Things like that event actually have happened quite a few times but rarely go reported for security reasons . We do n't want people to know just how often government leaders are targeted . <p> The situation described by Mrs. Hebshi was racially motivated and no reasonable probable cause was given to justify the actions taken . <h> JK <h> Allison <p> Just because Ms. Shebshi happens to be in the same ethnic group as the 9/11 terrorist does not make her a terrorist , nor does it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by definition . <h> Joe Jericho <p> I think Justin makes a good point , but this is why we need something more of an Israeli-based screening model , not the monster we have created due to political concerns . At the same time , you are correct about the reasonable suspicion angle . As a regular joe looking out for my family and our freedoms , I do believe that the enhanced screening needs to be appropriately targeted , but in this case , we are talking about prior-screening , not after that fact harassment like we see here . This story implicates do many problems with what is going on with air transportation in America and even other societal issues . <h> David <p> Timothy McVeigh was a typical looking white American . He personally participated in the planning and execution of a terrorist attack in the US that killed 167 people . He did n't use a plane , he used a Ryder rental truck . <p> By your logic , can you provide links to similar looking white Americans being handcuffed and detained , strip and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ renting a moving truck ? <h> Jess <p> I mean , really , literally-Joe-Biden , it is . I 'm not just some airheaded pwog that likes to use that word all the time . Attempting to justify mistreatment of human beings by referring to the actions of other people with a similar ethnicity is like straight out of the KKK , yo . <p> Timmy McVeigh was white , and every day thousands of people that look just like him hang out at federal buildings without getting strip-searched . Furthermore , they would n't get strip-searched even if some cowardly mouth-breathing kook called in a warning of " suspicious behavior " . Double standard , amirite ? <h> Tony <p> You have my utmost respect and admiration for your very sensible and logical comment . It 's more about controlling and stripping the citizenry of our rights than it is about security . Why could n't they have put the " suspects " through one of those virtual clothes-stripping scanners when they were taken into custody , and/or had them sniffed by a bomb-detecting dog , or some other @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they were subjected . Ok , it 's plausible that a plot could have existed , and perhaps that plot could include blowing the whole plane up when it reaches the terminal , but that 's the risk everyone takes when we travel -- some idiot is gon na do something stupid . I 'm not going to blame the Captain , who ultimately decided that the information relayed to him in-flight by his crew was enough reason to report it to authorities on the ground , who made the call based on a report passed-off 3rd-hand from 30,000 feet . For crying out loud , the flight was traveling from a U.S. major city , not some foreign country that could care less about our security concerns . They could have given the people something like a sobriety test on the spot , like , " who 's your Senator or Congressman ? " or " describe the house that you grew up in . " If they start singing alla akbar , or some other crazy crap , then they get strip searched . But if they can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them go , or at least tell them that if they do n't strip or somehow show that they 're legit , then they 'll be subjected to surveillance , and/or put on the no-fly list , for say , 6 months . I mean , whatever happened to the protection against " unreasonable searches and seizures ? " If you 're born here , and/or you have melted into the pot by learning the language and you dress and act like an American , like this Mom apparently does , give ' em a break ! Take down their license , and follow up if they feel as though they 're a threat . If they are , then more terrorists could be caught w/out even having to do the Chinese water-torture thing . <p> That is so true @ Abhi and I absolutely support it . I mean as a non-american citizen and a colored person i get stopped at every single air travel and i am always one of those randomly chosen persosn who is put through full body search or asked to randomly open her cabin @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ already been cleared . however i have always justified that as thinking a country which has been attacked has some right to check international incoming people more stringently than citizens . but its un-acceptable when its meted out to american citizens because of color . as someone very well said before in one of the posts-its okay to harasss colored " American citizens " because caucasian citizens can feel safer ! wow ! <h> Joe Jericho <p> This is n't totally right . My white brother gets harassed flying to Asia all the time , both here in the US and over there . He just fits some kind of profile , probably involving drugs . But , I commend you for recognizing , without knowing our laws , that you traditionally you do not have the same rights when you are trying to enter the country from abroad as opposed to already being here . Unfortunately , our government is not recognizing this right all that much at the airports and even at the bus and train stations on occasion when they set up mobile TSA checkpoints . <h> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be to just maybe casually check the " suspects " for weapons and isolate them while you checked if they actually were citizens or not ? " <p> Believe it or not , Abhi , this is not a question of citizenship . All non-citizens who are in the United States have the same rights afforded by the constitution as do citizens . The only right they do n't have is the right to vote . <h> Rightasrain <h> Marnie <p> Um , no -- the people in charge of our own financial systems bankrupted us . Blaming it on the 9/11/01 attacks is simply an extreme form of laziness and denial , not to mention an aversion to taking responsibility for changing the situation . We are the only ones responsible for our reactions to their actions . We could have responded differently . There was certainly no need to declare war on Iraq in response to an attack by a rebel group in Afghanistan . Obviously , many Americans need to wipe the sleep from their eyes and start looking at the cold hard facts . But , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to get off their lazy asses , turn off the reality t.v. , put away the Doritos and actually do something ... I mean , who is actually going to admit responsibility for something they 'd have to do something about if they were to acknowledge the truth ? This corrupt government is doing an amazing job of keeping us sick and unmotivated to move at all . This is not the fault of the terrorists -- it 's not even the fault of our government ! It is our own fault . So , either stop bothering to comment on blogs about it , or get off your asses and do something . <h> M <p> Marnie , how you feel about the war is exactly how I feel about it -- it was unnecessary . ( Read what I wrote again -- I said " response to 9/11 ? -- I did n't say 9/11 itself ) . But it was n't the banking system that caused us trillions of dollars deficit ... it was the war . By September 2008 when the banks collapsed , we already @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ way , this is what the terrorists ultimately want : the collapse of America . That 's why they chose the twin towers in Manhattan -- it 's a symbol of our dreams and also our might , it 's right next to Wall Street . Did they expect our economy to collapse ? No . They did n't even think the towers would collapse ( going by a recent documentary I saw about Bin Laden ) . But we responded in such a way as to bankrupt ourselves . <h> Martijn <p> Unfortunately , it will be a long long way ( if ever ) to return to anything that resembles normal . A major problem is that instilling fear works very well on most ( and it seems especially the American ) people . Sad but true . People do n't rationalize for themselves anymore , they let others tell them " truths " and use fear as a way to feed these truths . Look at advertisement for health products for example , most of it is based on fear . <h> Laura <p> The last ten @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the sociology of Nazism and/or Communism . The question of how a civilized and educated people ( Germany in the beginning of the 20th century ) would become accomplices to the Nazi government that passed the Nuremberg laws and how a people would turn their backs on their neighbors and friends , locking the other way when the authorities arrested and detained with no other reason but race is being answer here , in America , for the last ten years . Cowered by fear , not only of terrorists but of the Homeland security , FBI and the slew of other agencies that grew out of 9/11 , each of us is silent and compliant , when not others rights are infringed but ours as well . Now we know that the communists might not have been smart economists or administrators but they were brilliant sociologists and psychologists . They knew that once the spirit of a people is broken through terror controlling the individuals is easy . You just need to reinforce the memory once in a while , just to remind the folks who is in control @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , take away their rights -- not all at once , just few at a time -- and , when one day , they will realize what happens to them it would be too late -- the muzzle in place , the chains permanently attached and a fake smile required -- they are now protected . <p> I understand the thoughts of trying to equate Nazism and Communism to overeacting security issues such as this but they are not even close to being on the same moral plane and I am so tired of people comparing one kind of issue to another without really critically looking at the nature of the items being compared . Your reaction is the fear itself , not what is going on . I have had other times when authorities have required my personal information due to suspicions but you do n't argue , you deal with it and if there is a violation of your rights you lawyer up . That 's life . <h> Ian <p> Er . In what way IS this different than the early years of Nazism and Communism ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people and the German people just going along with it is what allowed it to progress into its later , worse forms . <p> You stop things like that at THIS point , not at THAT point . Your argument is what ? Are we supposed to wait until we get to Stalin before we take any action , or are we supposed to try to point out how wrong it is NOW , BEFORE we get to Stalin ? <h> paul <p> early nazism did n't look anything like what the writers did . early nazism involved serious amounts pressure and injustice at an ENTIRE group . This story illustrates what happened to a few of the millions of indians/middle easterners in this country . there is no systematic effort by the government to prevent these folks from owning property , getting a job , or anything else the nazis forced on the jews during their early reign in germany . <p> also , although i 'm deeply disturbed by how this situation was handled by the government ( in an unthinking , mindless , by the book way @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a plane to be blown up . i agree that these folks should have been taken outside the plane for a moment , questioned by a seasoned professional or maybe an israeli agent ( the israeli airport authorities are crackerjack at this ) in the back of a bus or something , and then cleared to go . there are tell tale signs of terror and a seasoned agent would be able to pick up on these things immediately . I really think this is the result of 1 ) it being 9/11 2 ) rednecks on the plane who would rather be safe than sorry 3 ) officers who are not able to think or making decisions but have to follow protocol by the book . In any case , this never should have happened . <p> You need to study how nazism and stalinism worked . It is the exact same game plan , exact same process , for the same reasons , for the same goals . Read Rise and Fall by Shirer , and read why the communists built the berlin wall , for exactly the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ security , economic concerns , terrorism ... It needs to stop now . <h> Tom Lange <p> I do n't think you are looking at the big picture in your reply ... Nazi Germany started by believing that a certain group of people were to blame ... They became the focal point , and the scapegoat ... And from there , it was n't long before Hitler was leading the lemmings on a leash-to genocide . <p> Take a step back , and look again ... The similarities are there ... If you do n't see them , I suggest that you might believe that " apples and oranges " is a valid expression of disparate things ... ( it is n't . ) <h> Tony <p> Tom I agree with you and Ian , I have studied WWII and I thoroughly . Heres what the Sheeple you are arguing with can not see and what happened ten years ago is exactly what happened in Nazi Germany . <p> As a reasoned to give him control over Germany He burned down the Parliament building and blamed it on foreign terrorist @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ peoples right away and made them the enemy as well as have their blessing to go to war to get the terrorist . <p> And this was exactly what happened on 9/11 our own Govt did this blamed it on foreign terrorist of middle eastern decent to get us into war while at the same time created laws that made us the enemy . <p> All of Bushes speeches were recycled Hitler speeches with Hitlers named changed to Bush , and so his daddy and the Bin Ladens made billions and Billions of Dollars along with the new tricky Dick ( Chaney ) The Bank HSBC and loads of others . <h> Joe Jericho <p> I agree with your other posts , but not this one . First of all , Hitler blamed the torching of the Reichstag on the Communists , as in domestic communists . Minor point , I know . I also agree with you that Bush has played a big hand in this , but Obama has clearly doubled-down on it . This alarms me that both parties act in such a tyrannical and dictatorial fashion @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ gestapo " and nazi-like , and they are , but I think if we are moving towards one model at all , it is more of a socialist/communist model rather than a fascist model . Of course , by now , the argument is almost semantical . Who cares ? We the people get screwed . We need Obama to get tossed out of the white house . At the same time , we do n't need one party controlling all of government . I suffer no delusions that a Republican president is going to stop all of this nonsense going on at the airports . Hell , the media wo n't even ask the candidates their stance on this . And we all know that Rick Perry played a major role in killing the Texas anti-TSA state bill . <h> Lance <p> " All of Bushes speeches were recycled Hitler speeches with Hitlers named changed to Bush , and so his daddy and the Bin Ladens made billions and Billions of Dollars along with the new tricky Dick ( Chaney ) The Bank HSBC and loads of others . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your post as tired rhetorical tripe . ( And by the way -- I 'm with the author on this , not those who flail wildly trying to defend undefendable policy ) <p> what about the right to remain silent ? you come on the airplane , seize me off of it , cuff me , toss me in a cell , and generally behave like a storm trooper . My response is to tell you to f off -- but thats just me . I have ZERO reason to speak with you -- just get me a lawyer and wait for the feces storm to begin . I 'd still be in jail there in Detroit but I will probably never have to work again . . . because the tax payers will be paying me a huge settlement for the violation of my rights . These folks forget -- WE possess the rights -- we granted a few to the central government . Its too bad that the Civil War ended the way it did -- because it cemented this all knowing all powerful central government that thinks @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Joe -- that 's quite a leap from 2011 terror issues to the outcome of the Civil War . " It 's too bad that the Civil War ended the way it did ... " Seriously ? If the other side had prevailed , we would still have slavery as a legal institution in this country . Slavery is the ultimate form of terror , is it not ? <h> Mister Aloha <h> BayAreaBiker <p> Yeah ! the idea is good up to a point but the problem with that whole plan is what if after arresting , the " authorities " ship you off to Gitmo or try the case in a Military Court . Remember , the " authorities " have access to the media to let the fellow citizens " know " about the " enemy combatant " before you can even get your day in a court of law and say " Not Guilty " . <h> thankful <p> Tt seems to me that all you people are forgetting or overlooking one fact the reason that the plane was stopped was because the two men were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because of the color of their skin . yes she happened to be sitting with them and she unfortunately was gathered into this whole scenario . I would rather be strip-searched and embarrassed and be alive than not and be dead . So maybe we should be thankful that the pilots and the airline attendants are being more aware of the activities of passengers . It seems to me that you people are the one that is making it about race than about facts . I do n't the pilots looked at them and determine whether they were or were not American citizens . I am sure we are all well aware of the fact that there have been American citizens that have committed travesties . So as far as I 'm concerned thank you Frontier pilots and attendant keep up the good job and continue to keep us safe <h> Justin <p> Allison , " Thankful " pointed out logical and objective reasoning that highlighted the unique facts of this individual scenario , but for some reason you are unable or unwilling to step back and view this objectively @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the airline and law enforcement the report was neither unspecified or random , to say that you would have to provide evidence that at least on passenger on the plane had a contradictory observation of the men that got up together and spent a long time in the restroom . That information has not even been challenged , hence your arguement of the search being illegal or unreasonable is subjective . I imagine the families of passengers from United Flight 93 might see it differently . <h> Joe Jericho <p> Looks to me like you are frustrated that Allison wo n't see it your way . Sorry , bro , but that 's life . Allison is not acting unreasonable here , and there are loads and loads of unreasonableness on the internet . Allison is looking at this from a more macro point of view in terms how this could impact any and all of us . I understand the viewpoint . If she is n't a lawyer , she might want to consider law school . <h> Allison <h> avery <p> uh ... that 's where you are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ claiming to be American ... but you SURE do n't seem to have a clue about American Law and Democracy . <p> I 'm growing more suspicious of you by the minute . <p> We elect our leaders and they make laws that we , as citizens follow . <p> it 's really not all that complicated . <p> No one is " sacrificing their Constitutional rights " -- in fact -- just the opposite . They are following the right to VOTE and have elected leaders make decisions in the best interest of its citizens , which is exactly what Homeland Security was born out of . It 's been around for many years now -- so when have you been exercising your " constitutional right " before then to have it revoked , if that 's what you believe ? <p> No one said it was a " random report " -- and no one said it came from a " civilian " -- once again -- you are showing your own bias . <p> The pilots do NOT make decisions to have flights scrambled based on " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to take a civics lesson .... and get up to speed on how Homeland Security really works . <h> Allison <p> Apparently , the decisions of those leaders involved stripping American citizens of their Constitutional rights ( or at least redefining those rights in detrimental ways ) . I do not and did not support those decisions . <p> Pilots , as far as I am aware , do n't make decisions about scrambling F-16s . That would be the decision of Homeland Security , yes ? So Homeland Security made the decision to scramble fighter jets , handcuff and detain and strip search and interrogate three innocent people , on the unsubstantiated report of unspecified suspicious activity . <p> That 's not acceptable to me , and it appears based on this comments discussion that it 's not acceptable to a large number of Americans as well . <h> Johnathane Dorane <p> " uh ... that 's where you are WRONG . We live in a democracy . You keep claiming to be American ... but you SURE do n't seem to have a clue about American Law and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . In a democracy every policy would have to be put to a general election . I do not normally correct another person 's misidentification of our federal government , but since you decided to insult someone 's understanding of that exact topic I could not help myself . You do not have to exercise a right in order to have it taken away . Are you saying that if I exercise my right to remain silent I forever give up my right to free speech ? You are correct that the DHS made the decision to sent the two F16s , although from recent articles no authority is taking credit for the strip-search . The FBI has denied any association with it . The airline has denied ever identifying the lady who wrote the blog post . The DHS was created by the legislative branch , but their creation does not mean they are automatically constitutional . The Judicial branch has the power to reject any law that it deems unconstitutional . Unfortunately they can not exercise this power until the law is challenged . This is why I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ legal avenues available to her . I really want to see whether the judicial branch will deem the detention , strip-searching , and interrogation of someone based on the person assigned to sit in the seat next to them spending a bit of time in the bathroom a constitutionally legal procedure . <h> ruth <p> Jonathane -- I hope she does , too , but I wonder if DHS and the airline are already working on sweeping it under the rug and paying the three off so that this test does n't occur , and they continue to operate in the same fashion . With denials from the airline and FBI , it looks as though the documentation trail is already being hidden ... or maybe this is just another way that the Patriot Act makes it possible to treat someone as a criminal or combatant , then deny it because there is " no proof " of its occurrence . <h> Anne <p> It was n't because they took a long time in the bathroom , it 's because they went to the bathroom in succession . As in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and then the other one got up and went to the bathroom . Nothing else was offered as suspicious activity besides that and the fact that they were all the same race and were sitting next to each other . Right . That 's totally logical . Two people both having to pee around the same time ? That NEVER happens ! AND they 're all indian ! ? Better sound the alarms ! <p> Also , if it had been a flight attendant who thought they were taking too long in the bathroom all they would have had to do was check the bathroom after they were out . Have you been in an airplane bathroom ? Not many places to stick a bomb . Also ? Since when was taking a long time in the bathroom suspicious anyway ? Maybe he was taking a shit . Maybe he was jerking off . Maybe he gets sick on flights and was throwing up because he did n't want to sit next to a total stranger and throw up in a bag two inches away from them . It 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " is an acceptable thing to have come to your mind . <p> Come back to us when you 've spent six or seven hours in a police cell , without information , or having any clue about whats going on . <p> I find it somewhat gobsmacking that so many people would support such a gross violation of basic human rights based on someone elses paranoia not even based on the observations of trained law professionals . <p> So they spent excess time in the bathroom . I have a stomach bug ATOW , I spent half an hour in the bathroom on a flight this morning , and I 'm willing to put money on the fact no one would have blinked an eyelid because I 'm white <h> Joe <p> Amazing , all of this happened because they spent too much time or made multiple trips to the rest rest room ? People have health issues . Sometimes it is nervousness that results in multiple trips to the rest room . Irritable bowel syndrom , Colitis , nausia etc . There is absolutely no reason for the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Keep in mind , these people were searched even before getting into the airport sterile area . Where was the risk ? What threat did these people present that required the treatment that they received ? <p> The bottom line here is that the LEO 's were out of line and completely unjustified in what they did . <h> Ram <p> why is it that people are willing to sacrifice their constitutional rights in this case , but when it comes to giving up the right to bear arms , its ' " over my cold dead hands " ? <p> Does every white person who buys fertilizer now come under suspicion because of Timothy McVeigh ? Let 's be clear , Timothy McVeigh and all the crazies who 've gone postal and fired automatic weapons in schools , malls , offices , etc have done much more damage to America without nearly the negative response . <h> Kremmen <p> " thankful " , you are simply an idiot . You are praising the pilots and FA for stupidity in causing someone 's suffering for no reason with no justification @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ air already . The crew did nothing to restrain the passengers , so , if they 'd had a weapon , they had every opportunity to use it . The Frontier staff involved should be arrested for making a false report and should pay compensation to every passenger for the delay , plus massive punitory damages to those who were arrested and assaulted without cause . <h> Mister Aloha <p> I agree ! Freedom is earned , if they do n't like how America operates , then move back to your home country . We are not holding them back if they want to leave . North Koreans can not leave their country even if they wanted to . That 's how that country lives . So leave if you do n't like America . One Nation Under GOD ! ! ! God Bless with certain unalienable Rights , that among these are Life , Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness . " <p> Freedom is another word for Liberty . Now , if the unalienable right to Liberty is granted by our Creator , how can it be earned @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? ! ? ? ! ! What planet are you from ? And if " they " do n't like the way American operates they should leave ? First you 're assuming that " they " are immigrants , and second , the whole point of democracy and liberty are totally at odds with your whole statement . I think perhaps you need to open your eyes to the fact that not all brown people were born outside of the USA , that the constitution guarantees them the rights you feel they should " earn " ( what have YOU done to earn YOUR freedom ? ) , and also backs up the peoples rights to speak out , mobilize , organize and work towards change , not just be forced to leave . The whole POINT of the constitution is to protect the american people from oppressive , tyrannical rule and protect them from over reaching government , that is why America was formed , and the founding fathers would have told your royalist ass to get back to Britain if they heard you talking that kind of nonsense @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ been , a United States citizen . She was born here . I 'm sick of all the people telling her to " go back to her home country " when ... she 's already there . In the country that she loves . <p> And , by saying " freedom is earned " , thanks for letting us know you slept through your high school government class . <h> Marnie <p> Na , I always take a long time in the bathroom -- for-ev-er -- and I 've never been questioned , handcuffed , strip searched , or even spoken to about it ... Of course not -- I 'm white . ( Nice try . ) <p> Also , I 'm not trained in any sort of law enforcement , or even flight attendant protocol ... But I 'm sure that I could have easily , nicely , asked the gentleman if he was feeling okay , or needed anything -- and found out right away whether he was actually doing something which warranted further investigation . We all watch too many hollywood movies with dumbed-down characters , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about anything , and get themselves killed by ignoring every possible sign of real concerns -- for the sake of drama ... We seem to have lost all faith in our own perception , and live in fear of what our imaginations can conjure up . <p> Let 's not forget that the incidents of 9/11/01 were very , very rare -- and unlikely to happen again in this country in any one of our -- or our grandchildren 's lifetimes -- even without strip searches after planes land . <h> Blue Pattern <p> " Tt ( sic ) seems to me that all you people are forgetting or overlooking one fact the reason that the plane was stopped was because the two men were taking an excessively long time in the bathrooms , ... " <p> So , by this reasoning , an airline passenger who happens to have dark skin or a foreign accent ( or both ) could and likely would be reported for " suspicious activity " by a " loyal American " passenger who is irritated about having to wait their turn while the first @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that typically takes longer . <p> Right . Now I understand . Using the toilet while looking or sounding different is a " suspicious activity . " <h> I support Rationality <p> I understand the attraction of trying to make a comparison between early Nazism and today 's America , but it is not possible to compare the CAUSE of the events of 9/11/11 with the cause of Hitler 's hysteria . There was no catastrophic terrorist event that led Hitler to uber-nationalism and his extreme hatred of the Jews . To compare those situations almost seems like justifying Hitler 's actions . We have reason to fear terrorists . We just should not assume that all brown-skinned people are terrorists . Hitler 's hatred of Jews was pure bigotry . <h> Scojam <p> Sorry David but Laura was describing a process by which rights are lost and governments becomes the ultimate all seeing authority and citizens lose all recourse . You ca n't compare the USA with Nazi Germany or Soviet Union Communism of course but she was n't doing that . Laura was describing a process that certainly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to change that process writers like Laura will be able discuss valid similarities with those regimes . It 's not there yet but it 's coming . <h> SHM1026 <p> David , thank you for mentioning that . It drives me up a wall how many times people try to equate Nazism with something going on in America today . The plain truth is that there is NOTHING that even comes close . Comparing something in America with Nazism is part of Glenn Beck 's schtick , and it is just plain ignorant . Since 9-11 , we have had to take extraordinary measures to protect ourselves ; and so far , we are proving to be lousy at doing it gracefully . <h> Liz <p> PLEASE do n't even TRY to equate what you may have experienced from authorities to what the author experienced . Just stop it . You did not ever experience anything like what she did . " Required my personal information , " indeed . Yeah , they required her personal information , alright . <h> Shanna <p> Yeppers . I am so tired of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ authorities provide . Freedom always comes at a price . I was once checked at an airport for drugs . And I have blonde hair . But I was dressed as a hippie , coming from sf and I realized this and moved on . It was no big deal . Grow up , miss shebhi . The only person who has a problem with your Arab background is you . <h> jenojeno <h> Allison <p> You were handcuffed and taken off a plane , strip and cavity searched , and interrogated ? I doubt it . You miss the point -- " freedom " includes freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures ( Constitution ) and the right to confront one 's accuser ( also , Constitution ) . <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> Good call , Allison . These three people need to be able to confront their accuser/s . And yes , being detained for hours , handcuffed , strip-searched does not compare to random " checks " for drugs . Let 's see how these people like a TSA officer getting gloved and sticking their fingers up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . <h> Joe Jericho <p> Allison , I think you should ease up on Shanna . She is ok with it because Obama did it . Now , if Bush had been doing this , she probably would have torched something herself . It 's hard dealing with ideologues . <h> Katiebug <p> " Illegal searches and seizures " is not relevant to this case because of the Patriot Act . It 's law , whether fair or not . <p> Nor is the " right to confront one 's accuser " . That 's in court , when you 're being tried for a crime . She did not make it that far into the judicial system because she was charges were not pressed and she was released . Again , fair or not , it is still law . <h> Allison <p> Thank you Katie . I did read in another post the changes that have been made in the interpretation of our Constitutional rights under the Patriot Act , and realize that that particular part of my argument is flawed . <p> I think the Patriot Act @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ problem here , as well as the interpretation of that Act by the authorities involved . <h> Johnathane Dorane <p> The patriot act can not make something that is unconstitutional suddenly acceptable under the constitution . To my knowledge this can only happen in one of two ways . <p> 1 ) The one we are taught about in highschool government class is an amendment to the constitution itself . The patriot act is a law passed by the legislative branch and signed into law by the executive branch , not a constitutional amendment . Thus the patriot act does not change the constitutionality of these searches . <p> 2 ) The second is through interpretation of the constitution by the Judicial branch . Parts of the Patriot act have already been deemed unconstitutional by the Judicial branch . I hope that Shoshana takes this to court , because I want to know for certain whether the detaining , strip-searching , and interrogation of the three people on this flight is deemed constitutional or not . <p> I fully expect Shoshana and the two others involved to be given substantial @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the constitutionallity of the detainment , searching , and interrogation . <h> Allison <h> Stacy <p> Oh come on . You were once checked at an airport ? You ca n't relate to this woman . Unless you can say you were handcuffed , thrown in the back of a car , stripped searched , and fingerprinted- then you should shush . I am tired of people having no sympathy anymore . <h> Marnie <p> Shanna , you apparently smoked way too much pot during your hippie days in San Francisco . You were probably too stoned to bother arguing , and the weed seems to have either dulled your sense of perception , stripped your ability to read , or vaporized your sense of empathy . Did you even read this post by Mrs. Hebshi ? ( Obviously not , because calling her ' miss shebhi ' is too far off the mark for you to have actually understood what she wrote . ) Furthermore , it occurs to me that the only relevance of your blonde hair , is the senseless comment you made . Rest up , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> Shanna , may I ask why you were checked for drugs at an airport . Was this at customs or the TSA . The mission statement of the TSA has nothing to do with drugs , unless they present a threat to airline safety . If you were checked specifically for drugs at a TSA checkpoint than that is a direct violation of your rights as it is not part of the executive search privlages granted to protect the traveling public . Instead it is a warentless and suspicionless search for evidence of a crime . This is expressely prohibited and a direct violation of the fourth amendment . <p> I was also not aware that my freedoms are provided by authorities . I was under the impression that my freedoms were god given and unalianable . Or is that just what some old irrelevent document states . Perhaps if you spent some time edjucating yourself you would not believe that your rights and safety are entirely in the hands of authorities . <p> To tell someone who was handcuffed , detained , strip-searched , and interrogated based on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to grow up is insensitive and selfish . <h> B. Perry <p> Thanks Laura , Eric Hoffer , a longshoreman philosopher wrote a book called " True Believer " that studied the very question of how the people in Germany in the 1930s , the most well educated country in Europe could descend into becoming a nation of people that supported its Nazi government . The book is one of the best books I 've ever read and if anyone wants to gain more understanding of why we as a nation have become what we have , this book offers some insights . Let 's hope we descend no further as that future , if it happens , will cause us to live through a greater real nightmare than we can imagine . <h> Theobromine <p> " A. Corrupt the young , get them away from religion . Get them interested in sex . Make them superficial , destroy their ruggedness . <p> " B. Get control of all means of publicity and thereby ; " 1 . Get people 's minds off their government by focusing their attention on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " " 2 . Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance . " " 3 . Destroy the people 's faith in their natural leaders by holding the latter up to contempt , ridicule and obloquy. " " 4 . Always preach true democracy but seize power as fast and as ruthlessly as possible . " " 5 . By encouraging government extravagance , destroy its credit , produce fear of inflation with rising prices and general discontent . " " 6 . Foment unnecessary strikes in vital industries , encourage civil disorders , and foster a lenient and soft attitude on the part of government toward such disorders . " " 7 . By specious argument cause the breakdown of the old moral virtues : honesty , sobriety , continence , faith in the pledged word , ruggedness . " <p> " C. Cause the registration of all firearms on some pretext , with a view to confiscating them and leaving the population helpless . " <p> NOTE : " The above " Rules for Revolution " were secured by the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Party , who acknowledged it to be still a part of the Communist program for overthrowing our Government " <h> Silly <p> Oh , that 's actually a completely fictional account . You can spot this because it 's written in the words an American trying to bash communists would use , not those a communist would use . <p> No communist would use " natural ruler " , for example , because there is no " natural ruler " . In fact ... no real democratic person would use the phrase , either , because there ARE no " natural rulers " in a democracy . <p> So whoever wrote this most likely was a fascist or royalist . Good job eating up Nazi propaganda . <h> Isla <p> Laura , so , so true . I do think the day is coming when we wake up and find " the muzzle in place , the chains permanently attached . " I believe we will see it within the next 30 years ... the mechanisms are already in place , and we are either not seeing , or so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ woman was NOT arrested , her liberties were not limited and her rights were fully intact . <p> if she really believes all that -- then get a lawyer and let 's see what happens . <p> i doubt very seriously , she will get far . ( but hey -- go for it ! ! ! ! ) many of us , of ALL backgrounds have been through similar circumstances since 9-11 and respect and honor the work of Homeland Security . <p> If some of you would actually learn how many horrific acts of terrorism have been thwarted since then -- and how many thousands of lives have been saved -- you would be singing a different tune . <p> Oh ... and let me guess . None of YOUR relatives had a full-bodied airliner smash into their office 10 years ago or had to choose between burning alive or jumping 85 stories to concrete below . Just a guess . <p> ( you may want to listen to betty ong 's 911 call from that day -- just to get a taste of what she and so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ EVERY single passenger and flight attendant was concerned about these men and their behavior ? Maybe this woman 's non-action when it was obvious to everyone else something was amiss .... raised a red flag . <p> The fact that THIS woman may have been doing EXACTLY what you seem to detest " sitting by and doing NOTHING " -- while they very well could have been trying to blow up the plane -- speaks volumes about your own bias . <h> Allison <p> Please post links to stories of passengers of all ethnicities , especially ones that are different from Ms. Shebshi 's , being handcuffed , detained , strip searched , and interrogated for hours before being released . <p> Please post some information about acts of terrorism that have been prevented with the use of these techniques . Surely there are some ? <p> Do not dishonor the 9/11 dead by invoking their names to justify the actions here . You cheapen their death by using them in that fashion . <h> Gino <h> Diane <p> In defense of the authorities , if it were n't for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ probably have a LOT MORE terror in this country . Because people would KNOW , that we are too laid back and they could get away with terrorizing our country more than they do now . I 'm sorry for what happened to Shoshana , but if it were me I would not have known that the authorities were just doing their jobs . <h> Andrea <p> Diane , although I disagree with you , I would be willing to consider this argument if the " authorities " could provide a shred of evidence that this type of abuse of power and harassment of American citizens actually prevented real terrorism . <h> Heywood <p> Why are you blaming " the authorities ? ? ? " In this instance , they were simply RESPONDERS . It was the PASSENGERS ON THE PLANE who fingered that row of " suspicious looking characters " -- the authorities were only acting on information they received . Would you prefer that the " authorities " ignore all reports , because some of them may have come from idiots who let their prejudices inform their decisions @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to a report do what police officers do when they receive a report -- ask many questions of the REPORTER to determine the validity of the report BEFORE questioning the accused . Cops do n't interrogate in this manner every single person against whom a report is made , and Homeland Security should n't , either . <p> And I would prefer the questioning not violate someone 's Constitutional right against unreasonable search and seizure , and the right for the accused to face his or her accuser . <h> Erylin <h> Lizabeth <p> Well said Allison . While reading the original blog i imagined myself as her . If i am who i am now , but with darker skin , I would still want those basic protections . I wonder if this ( my ) country would still be like it is today if the attackers on 9/11 had been caucasian . just saying that we would be enraged that our **25;5777;TOOLONG were being strip searched . And before people spout off on this about " they shouldnt come to this country " ... neither should you or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the way our government is running it now even native americans are being targeted and searched ... they were here before ANY of us . <h> Chance <p> Allison , you are wrong . The crew and pilot had to make the decision that there might be suspicious activity on the plane . The cops going into that situation , of course would protect themselves and those onboard . Think about this .... they are going into a plane blindly . If indeed there was a terrorist and they went to question them , do you think maybe the terrorist could have overpowered the cop ? Now the terrorist has a gun and a plane and boom .... everybody is dead and 9/11 is relived . Cops can detain you for whatever reason . It is charging unwrongfully is the problem . In this situation , no one was charged with a crime . It 's better to be safe than sorry . It is sad she had to go through this , but it was because of everybody 's paranoia aboard the plane . The authorities are not at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ enough time to have dinner with everybody and ask questions like in a who dun-it movie . that day there were threats of " something " happening so the responders were n't waiting . <h> Mary <h> Naren <p> Exactly . Did someone consider the plane had not blown up or hijacked yet ? Hello , Good Morning ? It did land safely even with those three brown terrorists conspiring all the time and two of them spending a little more time in the bathroom than usual ( and returning back to their seats without guns or bombs in their hands ) . Did these ' Authorities ' consider nothing was done by anyon eto thwart their ( our ' terrosisits ' ) efforts , but just some ' suspicious ' activity reported ; so it can not be ' as ' serious ? <p> So even if this was reported , this could have been handled in a completely different way . There 's no point in subjecting them to such such cells and treatments . They have handed over their information to you , did not blow up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so will not do it when they 're in your facility surrounded by all half the military . Do your investigation and treat them respectfully . If you say 50 such incidents were reported through the day , be mature enough to consider this could be another of those and handle it well ! <h> Gump <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> Indeed , Allison . When a magician performs a magic trick , they use some diversion so that peoples ' eyes do n't catch the magic in the trick . Maybe the accuser was diverting the attention off of themselves onto these three people . I think it only fair that the reporter should have been detained and interrogated , too , and also these three people need to be able to confront this accuser. <h> avery <p> maybe this woman 's protesting is a " diversion " to what she was really up to . So far , she 's been caught in a number of different lies . ( look up homeland security reports for december 2010 -- what she said happened then -- did not happen @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ weapon on a plane and mocked security when they failed to find it . <p> she 's not very good at covering her motives . i 'm sure it 's obvious to others , as well , which is why she will be targeted and followed for the rest of her life -- THANK GOD ! ! <h> avery <p> you mean , like the " crew " ? which includes the pilots and flight attendants ? <p> " after the CREW REPORTED that two people were spending " an extraordinarily long time " in a bathroom , Frontier spokesman Peter Kowalchuck said . " <p> The CREW reported it -- the CREW ( not some " random " passengers ) -- the TRAINED CREW ! <p> you really need a LESSON in flight protocol and Homeland Security -- you seem to be the ONLY person flying who does n't seem to understand that what the CREW SAYS goes ..... no matter what . If you do n't like it -- do n't fly . <p> ( you can always exercise you constitutional right to VOTE and lobby and get @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ me you like to complain too much to actually do anything about what you like to complain about -- an affliction many who have nothing better to do seem to have ) <h> Allison <p> Apparently the crew needs better training , since none of the 50 or so people identified as " acting suspiciously " on 9/11/11 ( according to the reports I 've read , and including Ms. Shebshi ) were found to be guilty of anything . <p> I think there 's a middle ground between " the crew can say anything and they will be believed no matter what " and " nobody can report anything ever . " I would like to see that middle ground include having the crew making the report have to provide specific and reasonable grounds for their suspicions , grounds that are more concrete than " I thought he was in the bathroom too long . " <p> I have voted in every federal , state , and local election since I was 18 . I also frequently lobby for political causes and candidates that share my beliefs . But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ beliefs or my participation in this discussion to anyone , including you . <h> Tom Lange <p> Unfortunately , history suggests that it does . Not that I defend it , or believe it , but the camps that Asian Americans were put into on the West Coast-were done to prevent an attack . They can look back and say : " It worked , did n't it ? " <p> People defend the atrocity that is the Patriot Act , and argue that we have n't had any terrorist attacks since , and reason that Bush did a good job ... <p> -Of course , the number of terrorist attacks in this country is so small that it makes a 10 year window completely meaningless . Some people will find meaning it it , however ... <h> Shelly <p> For one thing , No one can prevent terrorism but the proof is in the pudding to coin a phrase ... We have had ZERO terrorists attacks since 9/11 because of the publics awareness &; reports coupled with our Authorities responding quickly &; thoroughly ! So you must consider this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and ignoring evil is n't an option , our Government has the obligation to Protect ALL of its citizens . So " For the greater good " becomes one of thee most important points for all of us to remember and understand . With this information I hope our government learns from this incident and improves the system for our civil rights and our protection too . <h> Ian <p> See , the purpose of terrorism is to cause exactly this . " Terrorism " is n't about killing people -- it 's about terrorizing . That 's why it 's called " terrorism " and not " killing-people-ism . " <p> Killing people is a means to an end . The end is to destroy a society , by breaking down the rule of law and social contract . And we do this better than any other nation on Earth . We 've gone from a light unto the nations , a place which may not have always done the right thing , but was always on the right path , to a place that is an example of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And why ? Because we have reacted in exactly the way that al Qaeda was hoping . <p> In doing so , we 've proven that we are a PERFECT target for terrorism . A terrorist who attacks the United States gets EXACTLY the goal they want : a repressive , over-zealous , fascist security force which destroys the freedom and liberty that this country once had . <p> Once upon a time , people thought that " freedom " was a thing that you were willing to risk your life to fight for . This country was founded on the notion that you had to risk your security to guarantee your freedom -- and that that is a bargain well worth making . <p> Now ? We trade in all our freedom for a tiny bit of security , the act of a craven coward . And we harm other people in the process . <p> I am ashamed to be a citizen of a country where three people could be detained like that , because someone was afraid . Terrorism requires people to be terrified . <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ willing to harm their fellow citizens because of their own terror . <h> TheCrapMan <h> Ralph Baker <p> Ian , If you are ashamed to be an American Citizen , You have the right to LEAVE on the next thing smokin . I do nt agree with a lot of what happened in Detroit and I also have no solution to offer . Our lives as Americans have changed considerably in the last 10 years . I will still stand behind the troops and my Commander -in -Chief , whom I diagree with on many levels , because it is my Duty as an American to do so . I have rights and Freedoms due to the every day Heroism of the troops that protect me . If your ashamed , find a Country that you can contribue to and get on the next flight . You will not be missed . <h> Michele W. <h> Glenn <p> I Put my mom , my sister or daughter in this position and I am horrified ! ! I am a 4th generation American , and what ever words this poor helpless @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , was in far better taste than I would use . WE THE PEOPLE are terrorizing our own people <h> JenRo <p> Extremely well articulated and very accurate , in my opinion . I am ashamed of what happened to Soshana and what she had to endure . The Patriot Act is unpatriotic and those who deny this are looking at the world with blinders on . Something is not better than nothing if any crackpot or bigot can see to it that innocent citizens are stripped of their rights in the name of security . We are no more secure , merely a terrorized nation that has failed to learn from history . Many of these comments make it obvious that too many of us consider propaganda fact . <h> Lara <p> Well said , Ian . Very well said . I particularly like the distinction between " terrorism " -- causing terror , and " killing-people-ism " -- causing the death of people . When did we decide that our freedoms , as Americans , were n't worth it anymore ? <p> I am so sorry about what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ many others whose stories have not been told . I am reminded of this poetic quote by the German Pastor Martin First they came for the communists , and I did not speak out -- because I was not Then they came for the socialists , and I did not speak -- because I was not a they came for the trade unionists , and I did not speak out was not a Then they came for the Jews , and I did not speak out -- because I was not Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak out for me . <p> ... and I wonder , as Americans sixty years later , who are the groups we silently watch be persecuted ? Are we asking ourselves ' who will be left when they come for me ? ' In closing , I ask , when will we , as a collective conscience for America , find our voice and remember when freedom came with a price ? <h> Mister Aloha <p> One question to all you that feel America was wrong @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ family or friend in the 9-11 tragedy ? Did all those people ask to die the way the did ? NO ! I am sorry she had to go through that , but like she said herself , " I wo n't be flying on 9-11 any more . " Hello ? ! It 's the 10th anniversary and she wonder 's why ? They were on heightened security ..... what does that mean to you ? ? ? There was evidence that there were plans to do something on the anniversary ? ? ! ! Hello ? ! You folks seem NOT to be listening . A thief but comes in the night . If you knew when the thief was coming , then no more burglaries .... If we knew when terrorist was going to hit , no problem ...... but we do n't so we have to be very cautious ........ I am truly sorry this happended to you ( Shebhi ) but this is not the seventies or sixties ... we are at WAR ! We need to keep ALL Americans safe from harm ...... our @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ keep our freedom ..... FREEDOM IS NOT FREE ! <h> jen <p> few people are ' terrorized ' here that i know of . I fly all the time and do n't feel at all " terrorized " . no one I know feels " terrorized " <p> What I do feel .... is SAFE ! <p> I feel FREE and GRATEFUL to be an American and have an abundance of freedoms . <p> I 'm grateful for the security we have in place -- i 've been singled out , too ( searches , extra security , etc .... and i 'm not being profiled ... i 'm being screened . see , i 'm not biased in my own thinking ) <p> I consider it a minor inconvenience ..... as there are MORE important things in life .... like .... LIVING ! ( and not being bogged down by over-analyzing flight security ) . <p> This was a one-off occurrence ( and it happened on the 10th anniversary of 9-11 ) and the flight crew acted out of an abundance of caution - i hardly consider ONE time @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <h> Allison <p> Searches and extra security are not the equivalent of being handcuffed and removed from a plane , detained for hours without communication , strip searched ( and likely cavity searched , based on Ms Shebshi 's statements ) , and interrogated . That is not a minor inconvenience . It does not matter that this " only " happened once to Ms. Shebshi , since racial profiling is not acceptable . <h> Allison <h> Shelly <p> Everyone forgets , Flying is NOT a constitutional right , it is optional ! If you do nt like the security requirements , then do n't fly . But as soon as the Government fails to see something coming or the citizens just believe they did nt do enough after a disaster ( ie : Katrina ) then everyone is up in arms complaining , calling for congressional witch hunts and wanting the government to answer/pay for its mistakes ! Since the very beginning of this Republic , the founding fathers DID delegate the responsibility of Defense &; Security to our Government ! Our Government was not sopose to be in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ its citizens , those are individual , community &; local responsibilities ! But Defense and Security is solely the Governments responsiblity ! <h> John <p> At no point were Constitutional rights ever surrendered . When you board an airplane , you are agreeing to the terms and conditions the airlines have described on the back of the ticket . Flying is not a right , it is a privilege . There is nothing in the bill of rights that says every person in America has the right to fly commercial . <p> It is a simple decision for anyone to make , if you do not agree with the measures the airline security and authorities are allowed to take then DO NOT FLY COMMERCIAL . <p> Also , unfortunately you can not pick a different airline , because every carrier has to conform to the same rules set out by the different Government organizations . <p> To that end , I do not ever want to be singled out like Shoshana was . It is degrading and humiliating . But , let us be honest with ourselves . How many @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Or that somehow that person looked suspicious in your neighborhood ? These are reactions that we have been taught to think , because they are healthy for human preservation . <p> We can sit here and argue about whether the assumptions of the crew of the airplane were warranted or not . But what it really comes down to is the question of whether the Pros outweigh the Cons . The crew can not be afraid to make decisions like this when the entire plane is at risk . <h> Allison <h> Floyd <p> Do n't you think that if these people were going to blow the plane up they would have done it before they were yanked off of the plane ? Why go to all the trouble to board an airplane with an explosive , only to be detained after the flight lands and is quarantined ? The time to stop a terrorist is not after the plane lands . Terrorists may not be entitled to legal representation , but these people were . Being suspected of something , no matter how evil , does not trump the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . The people running this country are idiots . <h> Finisterre <p> I suspect , Sally , that if you had been hauled off a plane , arrested and strip-searched because someone thought you 'd gone to the toilet a few too many times , you would be ' very upset and screaming bloody murder ' about your Constitutional rights , not concluding that ' not flying ' was a sensible response . <h> Steve Bock <p> I hope that you are " detained " for our general and unspecified safety in the near future . Might give you some perspective on the supposed necessity of false arrest , unlawful detention , and criminal mistreatment . <p> " if you do n't like it do n't fly " = terrorism wins again . This process is the wrong way to go about offering any protection from terrorism . If American citizens can be detained for hours , strip searched , apparently body cavity searched , and questioned without probable cause other than the word of another person who is suspect of their activities , then terrorism can chalk up another @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a search warrant for the strip search and body cavity search . What did they expect to find on these people who had already been through the TSA checkpoint before they got onto the plane . Detaining a suspected person AFTER their flight has landed is very poor and very late security . If they were going to do something , do n't you think the misdeed would already have been accomplished ? I 'm all for profiling before people get into a plane and before the flight , Pull anyone aside that stands out from the profiling and question them further . I am against the current TSA and Homeland Security policies that are in place right now . In my opinion , the authorities here have trashed the Constitution with their processes for trying to find any would be terrorists . <h> David <p> The plane had already landed at its destination , so I do n't get where you 're going with that assumption . What 's necessary is for the authorities to actually conduct an investigation into the accusations , and not assume that the reports @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't appear the way someone believed Americans should look . The threat was long over once the flight had landed . That was the time to test the veracity of the accuser , not ramp up the violations of the rights of those accused with what we now know was no basis in fact . I 'm betting that if this were you , you 'd have a very different take on one surrendering their civil rights for the sake of the unsubstantiated accusations of others . <h> Joe <p> Is this what the face of tolerant liberalism looks like , redheadwglasses ? You do n't agree with me , so leave ? You 're a " xenophobe , " so leave so that we can have a uninformly tolerant society ? <p> I think Diane was making a reasonable point , and that point is that sometimes a vigorous response is necessary to prevent violence , save lives and protect public servants . This is n't always the case , and invariably mistakes are made and it takes too long to sort out that everything is okay . In @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . That 's something we should strive to eliminate but can never totally end in a world in which there are bad and good people who can be mistaken for one another in the heat of a moment . <p> Someone else said in this post that when police respond to a complaint , they ask questions of the complaintaint first before questioning the suspect , and in a situation in which there is clearly no threat to the officer or the public , this is certainly the case . But if an officer is summoned to a scene in which a reasonable person , lacking first-hand context , could construe poses an imminent threat of violence , I can assure you the officer will secure the suspect and perhaps even the complaintant until he or she can sort out what 's really going on . <p> It 's well established law , and common sense , that police have the right and in many cases the responsibility to secure and restrain suspects for their own safety and that of the public , the suspect and any victims . <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about this . Why ? Because our system is better than *their* system , as flawed as it may be . <p> In our system , we investigate facts and release detained individuals with an apology and a ride back to their car . <p> In other systems , do n't have the freedom to live Tweet their detention on suspicion of terrorism , suspects are beaten mercilessly until they confess to crimes they did not commit , are simply charged and convicted in sham show trials or summarily executed without so much as consideration of guilt or innocence merely because they are come from the " wrong " part of the world or believe in the " wrong " God . These things happen here , too , but they are the exception , not the rule . <p> Our system is not perfect . It bears the constant vigilance of an educated citizenry to prevent the inevitable excesses of power from gaining irreversible hold on our freedoms . And it must be protected from the paranoid and misinformed imaginings of a terrified people . <p> But our system @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ villified and pilloried for responding and investigating and coming to a reasonable and lawful conclusion that no laws were broken , for apologizing for causing an inconvience and for releasing a detained individual as quickly as possible . <p> This incident , as frightening and instructive as it is for both the writer and law enforcement ( and there are lessons for both ) , is not indicative of a system run amok , but is rather evidence that ours is a system in which laws , not the prejudices of men , ultimately triumph . <p> I 'm sorry for the writer 's inconveniences , and I 'd like to think I 'm wordly enough that I would not have mistaken the innocent bathroom habits of two foreigners for a mortal threat . <p> But it 's hard for me to say exactly how I might respond when , 35,000 feet in the sky , with the ominous warnings of a credible terrorist threat issued by my democratically elected government thundering in my head , I am faced something out of the ordinary as the sweet face of my @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> I 'm sorry for the inconvience and fear this woman and these two gentlemen suffered . In a perfect world , I 'd wish it on no one . At the same time , I ca n't fault the public servants who also just wanted to go home to their own families and who apparently worked diligently to clear these individuals and send them on their way . <p> Maybe , but this is merely conjecture on your part without foundation ? What if everyone on every plane points a finger at each other everywhere ? So does it make it right for everyone to be strip searched all over this country ? What I 'm saying is someone falsely stated that " suspicious activity " was taking place when this was not the case by this ladies statements here which seem very valid . It does have the appearance of being tied to skin color which is profiling and that is wrong . Did they strip search the person that made those statements ? This could amount to a hate crime . They clearly landed the plane without @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be conducted over less measures that would prove her innocence ? Its clear she was guilty by the strip search and not being givin ' information about why she was being taken from the getgo . I 'm somewhat surprised at your answer but I 'll bet you have n't been stripped searched without being given a reason why . When it happens to you , you 'll know how this woman felt . <h> Lance <h> Joe Jericho <h> Liz <p> Really , Diane ? Really ? If we did n't strip-search innocent CITIZENS for NO REASON , we 'd have more terror attacks ? Can you point me to some information that says that the naked photos and genital groping that we are subject to every time we fly has actually caught would-be terrorists ? ' Cause so far TSA has n't advertised anything about actually stopping terrorists . Your reaction is EXACTLY the proof that the terrorists have won , because you would be just fine with being imprisoned and strip-searched for no reason . They have won because people like you think it is OK @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ won because you are OK with the fact that we have lost our freedoms in the name of " security . " <p> Whilst I agree that others who may have ideas about committing acts of terrorism may be discouraged due to the heavy security activities that have been active for the last decade , I do think that this is the only way in which terrorism is thwarted by this system . I am reasonably sure that she should have at least been responded to before she was taken to the security office and been informed why she was being detained by the police in handcuffs . Pretty sure everyone has the right to have the answer to that . I am an Aussie and something I find interesting is that when we go to the the airport I always seem to be " randomly " targeted for bomb or illegal substance testing ( for anyone that does not have this it is a non-evasive procedure where they simply rub some cloth over your hands , clothes and lining of your bag and test it ) . I am @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I have asked why I always seem to be approached for this , mostly I am just told it is random . Then my friend started dating a guy that works for customs and he said it is because I look non-threatening , like I would n't make a fuss and that they are discouraged from approaching people of Arab appearance or women wearing cultural clothing as it might cause an incident of accusations of racism . Interesting ! ! ! They would rather not cause a scene and risk a bomb getting on the plane all for a simple swab test . This was around the same time that an informant let the police know that they believed a person dressed in a burqa would conceal explosives under the garment and would target a " hub " in Sydney city . I am so so sorry for what happened to you , it was just WRONG , plain and simple . You have every right to feel violated and I hope that the support of your friends and family helps you through this time . <p> There apparently @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by acting from suspicion , and perpetrating said same in the name of protection from suspicion . I think we as Americans must be just as vigilant against the erosion of our rights and freedoms as we are against the terrorists who try to do great damage to our country . Otherwise , we will end up doing their work for them . I believe Shoshana 's experience was a terribly unfortunate example of the authorities accomplishing just that . Those of us who are , or who look , white , are not inclined to reflect back on our history at what the authorities have considered to be meet and seemly behavior , " just doing their jobs " . Ask one of our Native American or African American ( and there are other groups as well ) what " acting on suspicion " meant to them . Ask an African American today what " Driving While Black " means to them . How we strike the balance is an extremely difficult thing . But the " LOT MORE " terror in this country could start to come from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ much room for interpretation . Sitting idly by , in the name of " the authorities were just doing their jobs " and watching the Shoshanas of our American family be mistreated is unacceptable . Where do you propose we draw the line for that ? <h> Penny <p> I agree . Maybe if they had done this 10 years ago we would n't have lost thousands of people to a senseless act . Unfortunately terrorists do n't wear a sign saying they are a terrorist and the authorities have to guess . It 's sad because even women and children can be a terrorist among the radical groups . I 'm sorry Shoshana had to experience this but it was for the safety of thousands . We are not disturbed by events but by the view we take of the events . <h> Johnathane Dorane <p> Maybe if they had waited until the plane landed safely , directed it to move away from the terminal after it had already been there , boarded the plane with a SWAt team , and detained three people who had not done aything @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ if the criminals on 9/11 had decided to forget their plan and allow the plane to land safely . Of course , if they did that then they would not have committed any crime as the possesion of box cutters was not against the rules of flying at that time . <p> " Unfortunately terrorists do n't wear a sign saying they are a terrorist and the authorities have to guess . " <p> Are you really comfortable with the authorities simply guessing as a reason to detain , strip-search , interrogate , and fingerprint random people ? <h> Johnathane Dorane <p> It took me a minute to grasp the implications of your statement , so I will have to post a second time . <p> " Unfortunately terrorists do n't wear a sign saying they are a terrorist and the authorities have to guess . " <p> since terrorist are criminals I can change that one word and the meaning changes . <p> Unfortunately criminals do n't wear a sign saying they are a criminals and the authorities have to guess . <p> So if an authority guesses I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ searched , interrogated , fingerprinted , and if this produces no evidence against me released with an appology . No probable cause required ? <p> So if an authority guesses I am a theif , I get hauled in , strip searched , interrogated , fingerprinted , and if this produces no evidence against me released with an appology . No probable cause required ? <h> Chris <h> thankful <h> Alice <p> Diane , it is a matter of HOW action is taken . I agree with Scojam that this is a systematic process by which we are gradually desensitized into compliance for our " safety " . There are ways to interrogate or question people that do not violate their rights as US citizens . <h> tb <p> i agree diane ! tough shit ! these people are doing their jobs , and I 'm thankful for it . if it were me I would be grateful that they were on alert , and not be whining about security measures put in place to protect the American people ! if you do n't like it , then next time @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ problem is that they were NOT doing their jobs CORRECTLY ! They abused their discretion and I 'm willing to bet that if Shoshana were to consult with an Attorney , she will be successful in suing the Agents involved . <p> Perhaps , everytime I do a car stop for someone going through a stop sign , I should immediately pull them out of their car , search them , handcuff them , take them back to the station and strip search them . After all , they do present a threat to me , since I have to approach the car and I do n't know if they are armed with a weapon or not . <p> The people on the airplane at the very least have gone through a magnatometer to check them for weapons . Their bags were at the very least x-rayed . Their carry on was x-rayed as well so the probability that the people on the airplane having a weapon is extremely low . <p> On the other hand , the people that I pull over , have not been searched . Not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> I think from now on , anyone going through a traffic light , stop sign or speeding will immediately be hadcuffed and strip searched to ensure my safety . At least the people I will be strip searching have done something wrong unlike Shoshana who was just sitting in her seat and minding her own business . I wonder how long I will be keeping my job ? Gee , do you think TSA would hire me ? I will be an experienced searcher ! <h> VoiceOfReason <p> Right . So when the terrorists finally decide that flying is too much of a hassle , and that they 've won that front , the car bombings will start . <p> What then ? Military checkpoints at all state borders ? Travel plans filed between states with the National Transportation Safety Board , using it 's newly expanded powers under the Anti-vehicle Terrorism Act ? <h> Ketil <p> Because , as we all know , there are no other ways of conducting terror than blowing up an airplane , after it has parked , on the ground , at its @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ automatic rifle , and kill dozens of people at a political youth camp , nor to blow up subway systems , trains , or simply run a lot of people over with a car ? <p> Are you seriously suggesting that confiscating toothpaste at airports deters or prevents any of this ? Is fertilizer only sold from the trolley aboard aircrafts in your country ? If not , why are n't we seeing a lot more terrorism ? Where are all the suicide bombers ? <p> The fact is that , in spite of the wars incited by America and it allies that have cost half to a million ( mostly muslim ) lives , there are very , very few people eager to sacrifice themselves in terrorist attacks , and approximately nobody with the means and faculties to pull off anything more than an IED in their own Iraqi or Afghan neighborhood . <p> All of the so-called security is part paranoia , and part theater for the paranoid . <h> Torus <p> It 's becoming clear to me that the public at large may not even know what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ attempt to make people fearful . Killing people is simply a means to an end , not the end result . <p> This country is terrified of being " terrorized " , so it just accepts these heightened security measures and subtractions of our inalienable rights without assuming anything bad will come of it , and also support the waging of a war against an idea ( what in the world is a " war on terror " , anyway ? ) . <p> By definition of " terror " , there is a LOT of it in this country . We are terrified of something that has little chance of actually happening when the serious threat in this country is an accident on the freeway . And , in this respect , al-Qaeda has succeeded . <h> Ken <p> More like the land of the willingly oppressed and home of the chicken . Which , I take it , is your point . Liberty is not for lily-livered sheep who are all too eager to surrender freedom for a ( false ) sense of security . But this does @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ suggested . Rather , it means that we have met the enemy -- and he is us ( apologies to Walt Kelly ) . Or , as was famously said at another time , in the face of a different sort of threat , " We have nothing to fear , but fear itself . " Seems like a lot of people have forgotten that lesson . <h> penny <h> Steven <p> I think that what happened to Shoshana is absolutely horrible . It is very unfortunate that she had to go through such a traumatic and embarrassing event . However , I do believe that our governments security tactics since 9/11/2001 , no matter how potentially unfair they have been , have been largely successful in protecting our country from further terrorist attacks in the 10 years since 9/11 . <h> Johnathane Dorane <p> " I do believe that our governments security tactics since 9/11/2001 , no matter how potentially unfair they have been , have been largely successful in protecting our country from further terrorist attacks in the 10 years since 9/11 . " <p> Do you have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ governments security tactics " have been so successful ? I am open to changing my view if presented with new information , so please provide support for you opinion in the form of facts and data . <h> Don Barnhart <h> Bob A. <p> It 's funny how people were not so suspicious of 20 something , white , anglo , christian men after the Oklahoma City bombing . That murderer killed hundreds of men , women , and children , but the residual racist paranoia was not there . The matter is that the media , through their use of such phrases as " Islamic Extremists " caused this sort of paranoia . Why did they not refer to McVey as " Anglo-Christian Extremist " ? It is tag lines like this that lead folks to the kind of paranoia profiling that will probably be around for a long time . It is also the reason that young afro-americans can not walk down the street at night , without someone crossing the street to get away from them . I do n't believe that we are all racists . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " . <p> You are absolutely right . We will win the war against terrorism when our lives return back to what they were on September 10 , 2001 and when the Homeland Security and TSA ceases to exist . Till that day we have not won the war . <h> laars <h> rohlik <p> the woman who was detained waa unfortunate incident , and she complained about racial profiling but at the same time talked about fat woman and men policeman that were rednecks , is this profiling ? ? ? ? ? ? absouletly , we are so very luck we live in the best country in the world and people who are not comfortable here should leave . <h> Yoko <p> Maybe she did throw them into a stereotypical category based on what they looked like , but did she call " the authorities " on them and cause them to be subjected to the humiliation she went through ? No . So , it 's probably not fair to call her a hypocrite . Also , I 'll bet she was in the worst mood of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is okay in this situation . And are you suggesting that innocent , decent American citizens whose rights are grossly violated and thereby made " uncomfortable " ( an understatement in my opinion ) , should leave the country that they have a constitutional right to be in because they are unhappy with that kind of treatment ? Interesting . Also , she did n't say anything about hating America or what it should stand for . She just did n't want to take the abuse she suffered at the hands of paranoid bigots lying down . And by paranoid bigots , I mean the ones who called in the authorities . <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> I think her reply was restrained . She was way too polite in her description of them . You do realize this just happened to her ? I would still be too angry about it to even post such a nice reply as she has posted . <h> Joe Jericho <p> She said she was an American , should she leave ? Should she go to her father 's homeland and be abused @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ agree with your point that she seemed to be engaging in the same behavior she accused them of , but she does n't have any power ; whereas , those government scum used their power to torment and make her life very difficult . Personally , I do n't think race is the dispositive factor here , but I think she is justified in thinking it may have played a roll and for throwing some anger towards those who did it to her . I can get past that . Can you , or do you want to play a gotchya game with the victim ? Perhaps it was her own fault that she got raped . Geez .... <h> Matt <p> There are those of you who live under this dilusion of peace and understanding through tolerance and love . Then there are those of us who live with the reality of violence and hate on a level that you will hopefully never experience . While inconvenient , what happened to the author probably saved lives . These searches and detentions are n't designed solely to harass the many @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and DETER suspicious and criminal activity . Reluctantly I feel obligated to mention also that 9/11 was not the only terrorist attack on the U.S. perpetrated by brown skinned individuals who happened to speak Arabic and read the Qur'an . With that said my sympathies are slim to the " racial profiling " problem that we ( us redneck , speedboat driving , country music listeners ) have . While noticing a car full of white kids in their early 20 ? s driving slowly through a known drug area may seem like " profiling " to you , to me it seems like college kids trying to score some weed . ( marijuana is still illegal in most states by the way ) Everyone here is free to say whatever we like on any forum we choose . We are also free to practice whatever brand of God we choose , just not at school or work or anywhere anybody who hears or sees you doing it will be offended. ( this means all you middle class gun toting republican types ) All of these freedoms have been provided @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you have never appreciated the men and women who have been keeping the wolf away from your doorstep for all these years . Most of you have not served in the military , or gotten ready for work in the morning hoping that at the end of your shift you would still be alive . Neither have you given any thought to how many holidays , childrens birthdays and other hours upon hours these public servants sacrifice to keep your basic human freedoms alive . It is this last reason that makes me less sympathetic to the inconvenience of a few hours of questioning and the humiliation of a strip search . Before i climb back on my unicorn and ride off in to my world of kittens and jelly beans let me leave you with another thought . Somewhere in everyone 's not so distant past , an ancester of ours thought it wise to leave what ever shithole , third-world country they were born in to come to America to find a better life . If you feel that they were mistaken , and that we are " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to what ever land you were descended from . I assure you ........ You Will Come Back . ( if they do nt cut your head off on al jazeera you infidel ) <h> Mac <p> 10 years is not too long ago . 20 years will be a ceremony instead of a memorial and all will forget what happen . The Terrorists never forget and will be patient enough for the " Americans " to let their guard down . Then , they will strike again . It 's a lose-lose situation no matter what the outcome . Had there been a real terrorist threat and the reaction was not the same , then everyone would be furious for letting something happen . Lucky for us all , there was no terrorist threat and everyone is safe and alive . Protocols have to be in place for protection . Does it suck for some ? Yes . Was it racial in nature ? Debatable . Wrong place wrong time with suspicious people sitting next to you . Nothing will ever be perfect and some " feelings " will be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ place there will be loopholes and a terrorist organization WILL find them . America is full of people who only know the " American Life " and have no clue to what is going on outside It 's borders ( other than what the media want 's them to know ) . There are many cultures out there that would kill every American just because they do n't live the same culture . They do n't " love " and " care " like the American culture . There is no " talking them out of it " just like they ca n't " talk you into it " . It 's OK to be paranoid . Just do n't be stupid about it . I 'm not writing to offend . Just to shed a little reality . I only posted to the first post I saw . <h> Peter R <p> Thanks to Shoshana and all the comments for revealing this appalling incident . I wonder what the stories of the other " 50 incidents " are . In this case , it is frightening that the suspicions/paranoia @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people -- and that some would say , well , that 's just post-9/11 life for you . Why is it that " law enforecement personnel had to be so rough and rude with no evidence other than the unknown " accusor 's " accusation ? I feel humiliated and ashamed by their behavior , and I apologize to Shoshana and all others so treated for being part of citizenry that has allowed such things to happen . <h> Naren <p> I was wondering the exact same thing . I want to know more about those " 50 incidents " . what exactly was reported as ' suspicious ' ( just brown folks sitting next to each other ? ! and nothing else ? ) and how were they handled . Oh wait , we probably wo n't hear about them . <h> Joe Jericho <p> I agree and makes you wonder whether there should be a cause of action against either the reporter or , more likely , the government . I think it should be targeted to the government . Reporters should be encouraged to report , generally @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ handled it . Let 's be honest , this is all politically driven . No political party wants to preside over the next attack , so they have no problem brutalizing an " unimportant " citizen for the sake of saving their own necks . We need term limits for all , and you are only allowed to hold one public office during the course of your lifetime . Sort of like a " thank you for your public service , goodbye " sort of thing . <h> B.R. <h> Johnathane Dorane <p> You can get suspicious whenever you want , but you can not interfere with the rights of your fellow citizen without probable cause supported by oath or afirmation . <p> Do you walk down the sidewalk keeping an eye on everyone and your distance because they may have a gun that they are planning to put to your head ? <p> Do you time peoples bathroom breaks when you are eating out ? <p> Do you time your co-workers bathroom breaks ? <p> Do you time your family members bathroom breaks ? <p> Please explain to me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It would have been possible to seperate the three individuals and ask them questions for a few minutes to determine that they were not a threat . There was never and still is no evidence that these three people represented a threat to anyone . <p> No the sad truth is white people are scared of what does n't look like them . this has been and will always be true sorry . I 'm not trying to be insensitve or disrespectful . They use the attack to justify their treatment of people who do n't look like them . it 's been a pattern throughout the history of america . I was once stopped by the police becausde they said they recieved a call that Ii was walking supiciously by a bank . I was on the side walk and it was cold outside so i had on a big jacket . I was coming home from a ballet rehersal i was being " real suspicious " I 'm sorry this happened to you I 'm sorry this happens to anyone . our problem is not terrorism it 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we wont began to address what can be done to keep from reacting out of fear <p> I am so sorry this happened to you . And glad you are willing to share the story . Too much of our daily lives are controlled by fear since 2001 . We should be ashamed of a great many things which have occurred in the last 10 years . And Dallas is correct . In many ways , the terrorists did win . <p> i couldnt have said it better myself ! ! you are totally right , we need to stop sending our troops over there to be murdered and start focusing on our own country who has suffered tremendously due to the fact that we are making their country better . we need to fix us so we can help others . 10yrs have been long enough . Shoshana-im sorry you and the other two men had to go through this , but maybe something good will come of it ! ! take care and stay proud of America ( even through the unAmerican instances ) . " what does @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Milwarde <p> Yes , the terrorists did win that day , and they are still winning , and they have nothing to do with the Middle East . All physical evidence at the World Trade Center points to controlled demolition as the cause of the collapse of 3 high rise buildings on 9-11-2001 , and almost all physical evidence was ignored by the so called government investigations . Starting from that scientifically irrefutable conclusion , one needs now to ask , " Who were the terrorists ? " Things will continue to degenerate until the events of a decade ago are investigated instead of covered up . <h> Pete <p> Our ' gift ' from Osama Bin Laden . Now you see what the real price is for his murdering acts on 9/11 : to make the U.S. an unwelcome place for all those people who chose freedom instead of sharia law , liberty instead of religious tyranny . <h> Libby <p> Shoshana -- I am really appauled at your response to the people who imprisoned you , and your lack of knowledge about your rights . The best way @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to converse . Tell them that you will not speak to them . If , on the first request they do not conduct you to the toilet , urinate in their cell . Be polite , and refuse , respectfully , to converse . The only way they can proceed is with your cooperation , unless you have really done something wrong and there is evidence . Do n't EVER willingly talk to a TSA or FBI agent . Just remain silent . There is no law which requires you to speak . Without any blame or accusation at you , this is the only way we will regain our rights -- not cooperating with those who exceed their authority . Respectfully , Charles Heller <h> Moose <p> I find this the saddest part of the acccount ... a person who feels she is being racially profiled ... speaking hatefully about " rednecks " , country music , and speed boats .... the descriptions of the white bald paunchy officers ( find it hard to believe that in Detroit there was only 1 officer of color ) ... and then @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ whitey " . Yes , the terrorists have done a good job of dividing Americans and apparently the profiling goes both ways . Every civil rights movement has included millions of compassionate white Americans and as such a person I am offended . <h> X <p> Are you fucking kidding ? She explained that she was so humiliated and angry that she began to feel that way ( irrationally , because she was scared and ANGRY ) . You sound like one of the people who probably would have found her " suspicious . " <h> Yodamite <p> @X : I agree . The thing that baffles me is that , with everything this poor woman was put through , K.S. Schultz and Diane are most troubled by Shoshana 's silent reaction . As if getting handcuffed , strip-searched , and getting interrogated is a walk in the park . <h> Chris <p> and you sound like one of those people who wines all the time and complains about how you do nt have anything so you sit at home and wait on OBAMA to pull his magical bag of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Allison <p> The Constitutional rights against unreasonable search and seizure , and the right to face her accuser . <p> And yes , in America , all white people have white privilege . Since other people in this comment thread have misunderstood that concept , here is a good website about what it is ( it might not be what you think I mean ) : http : **34;5804;TOOLONG . ... <h> Linda <p> @allison i would so disagree . im as white as they come and i live in Texas and i cant get a job even at burger king because every spanish speaking immigrant gets it . even though i could understand and perform any job just the same if not better . SO EXCUSE ME , WHERE ARE MY " WHITE PRIVILEGES " ? ? ? ? ? do nt get me wrong , im not racist . but this is America and its the born and bred Americans that DO NOT get " privileges " <h> Markus <p> Right , because white people always get pulled off airlines and detained because they look a little bit @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a jail cell at the time she wrote this , for no other reason than someone thought that by simply sitting in her seat during the entire flight , she was up to something , detained by a largely white collection of " authorities " from several branches of law enforcement and government , acting on laws passed by that government , put in place by a president whose largest demographic of voting supporters was white Southern voters . <p> So , try to understand why someone going through a cavity search while her husband has no idea where she is , might be a bit resentful of the type of person who supported the President who passed the laws that allowed this travesty to happen to an American citizen . <p> You think her noticing the color of the officers ' skin is racist ? OK , fair enough . Let 's put you and your family on a boat , ship you across the ocean , and force you to work as manual labor for a few generations for a black population . They we 'll free your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your owners ' wars , so they can go on to be treated as a fraction of the worth of a black person , while being denied access to decent work , pay , civil rights , or education for another few generations . Then we 'll haul one of your descendants off an airliner one day thanks to a law passed by a black President , enforced by black police officers , because someone thinks they look a little too much like that white guy who did that terrible thing a decade earlier , and we 'll see if your **40;5840;TOOLONG ... does n't notice the color of the man checking his colon for a bomb . <p> Then we can come back here and finish this discussion about what counts as racist in this country today . <h> AJ <h> Xanthoptica <p> In basketball , you make a point to " call the first foul . " It 's hardly surprising that a person of color who had clearly been detained for flying without being white might notice the racial or ethnic traits of the folks who are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the toilet . She did n't introduce race or ethnicity into the situation ... but simply reacted to bald and mean-spirited racism . <h> Rachel <p> I would absolutely love to leave . Unfortunately , though , it 's a pain in the butt to move to another country , especially when I ca n't even find a job in the US with a bachelors degree ( you need to have enough money to support yourself , or get a work visa which is sometimes pretty hard to do ) . <p> Also , I will not support policies blindly just because they are " our policies " . Sometimes they 're pretty stupid policies . Is n't that what the founding fathers wanted in the first place anyway ? For freedom of speech and the right to disagree with the way the country is run ? <h> Allison <h> zirjo <p> Rohlik .. she decided at that moment she would hate anything to do with Country music , and whatever comes along with it . In other words she hated the idea that white men was doing this to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that reminds me of ignorance . Not race and this is what she meant . by using this words . As in many societies there is lacks of education and and most of all competence on what you do in this case is security the people taken this kind of jobs and you see it in every port the woman about 70 years old with no bladder only a bag on her side to hold her pee ... but she must be searched because this is security or otherwise ( I could loose my job excuse ) Personnel taking this position are not the smart security force , you can think of them as untrained and not too smart but they could beat you if you resist , they do not know anything about privacy acts whatsoever very ignorant people that do things as if it was only one color in front of their eyes . I 'll tell you sometimes i had travel i noticed this people are so stupid on their search you can stand there and see their mistakes and think how many people could go trough @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ illegal instruments into an airliner . Their job is completely unnecessary if there is another attack for sure will not be coming in an airliner any way . I appreciate authorities took a step towards security but this is done absolutely wrong . I hope that some day they can restore our liberties and stop scaring people throughout the whole USA . The so called ( patriots ) that call on these 3 are the 1st ignorant s .. the ones to follow are even more stupid .. till the bosses arrived FBI and others .... <h> Chucky <p> Rohlik , The point of a democracy is that if you hate the policies you are supposed to complain and work to change them . You are not supposed to just take it -- or leave , you are supposed to fix it . The government makes lots of mistakes , every day , some are badly written laws or policies , some are based on misinterpretation of the law , some are out of control bureaucrats . In this case , as noted above , someone was detained AFTER being @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Xrayed , magnetometered etc , and after the flight was over . This is bad policy , and it is an unreasonable search in custody without according rights required by the Constitution . If you think this is RIGHT , work to change the constitution , otherwise it is not legally justified , and it violates , rather than protecting Freedom . <h> Sarah S <p> I love it when illiterates with foreign names ( from countries with Communist pasts ) come and tell us Americans we should all leave the US if we insist on knowing our Constitutional rights- and complaining when they are violated ... <h> KB <p> Completely agree with what you find to be the saddest part of this account . Understandably , she is upset by what happened to her , but she is really no different with her descriptions of the officers she interacted with . Would have been a much more powerful post if she , herself , could have risen above the very thing she is blogging against . <h> zirjo <p> KB .. she decided at that moment she would hate @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ along with it . In other words she hated the idea that white men was doing this to her . You know when someone refers as to rednecks that reminds me of ignorance . Not race and this is what she meant . by using this words . As in many societies there is lacks of education and and most of all competence on what you do in this case is security the people taken this kind of jobs and you see it in every port the woman about 70 years old with no bladder only a bag on her side to hold her pee ... but she must be searched because this is security or otherwise ( I could loose my job excuse ) Personnel taking this position are not the smart security force , you can think of them as untrained and not too smart but they could beat you if you resist , they do not know anything about privacy acts whatsoever very ignorant people that do things as if it was only one color in front of their eyes . I 'll tell you sometimes i @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their search you can stand there and see their mistakes and think how many people could go trough this isles and find dozens of ways someone could take illegal instruments into an airliner . Their job is completely unnecessary if there is another attack for sure will not be coming in an airliner any way . I appreciate authorities took a step towards security but this is done absolutely wrong . I hope that some day they can restore our liberties and stop scaring people throughout the whole USA . The so called ( patriots ) that call on these 3 are the 1st ignorant s .. the ones to follow are even more stupid .. till the bosses arrived FBI and others .... <h> Yodamite <p> Really ? You thought her internalized emotional reaction to her oppressors was the saddest thing about her account -- a reaction that she owns up to at the end of the article ? That 's what you walked away with ? That 's Sad ! <p> And , what an absurd false equivalency you try to create ! Sorry , Shoshana was racially @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of civil rights , false arrest , and a humiliating strip search , while the other leads to some dorks on the internet laughably comparing the plight of a southern white person to that of a racially-profiled minority . No , the profiling does NOT go both ways . A " redneck " does n't end up in a cell because someone thinks his twang is silly or disagrees with his taste in music . <p> She reacted the way she did because of the way she was treated . And , if you actually use your brain , you would see that she concludes the article with a message of tolerance that is aimed at everyone , including herself . <h> Guster <p> Southern , white , and a delicate flower , too ! A very common combination . <p> Being detained , and strip-searched , and handcuffed -- completely baselessly -- is bad . But hurting my fee-fees is worse . Shame on Shoshana , indeed ! I think the lesson she should take from this is that white men have her best interests at heart . <h> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ read an account of someone 's Constitutional rights being violated , and that person having an angry reaction toward the violators ( which she owns up to ) , and dismiss the account because white feelings might possibly have gotten hurt . <p> Wow , Allison . Such a racist chip on your shoulder . Perhaps you should direct your complaints to the African-American president who endorses these violations . Those white Southern rednecks at DHS could do none of this without his authorization . And by the way , did n't she mention she was strip-searched by an African-American ? Hmm . It seems to me like this issue is not so black and white as you would like it to be . In fact , I know just as many Latinas and African-Americans who profile the Hebshis and the Indian men of this world as terrorists , just as you are incorrectly profiling me right now . <p> What happened to this lady is a travesty perpetuated by a nation afraid of its own tall shadow . A nation being told by our President and Big Sis ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ See Something , Say Something . " Each of us Americans of every race is losing our freedom . This injustice will not be overcome if the primary concern of racist people is to prove that people of their specific color are the most persecuted . We ALL have a horse in this race , and sensible solutions will only prevail if we pull together and stop putting each other down . <h> Allison <p> It seems that you misunderstand my use of the term " white privilege . " It 's a concept from critical race theory , and it refers to the fact that in America , simply by being white , white people have privileges that others do not have . White is seen as the norm , while non-white is seen as the non-norm , the " other , " the abnormal . <p> It is white privilege , for example , to read a story about a non-white woman whose Constitutional rights are violated in a humiliating way , and then state that because that woman said some mean things about the people who humiliated @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as the poster named " John " stated . <p> The fact that non-white and white people were involved in the violation of Ms. Shebshi 's rights is not relevant to the concept of white privilege , nor is the implementation of the Patriot Act , or any of the other issues you mentioned . My mention of white privilege was specifically relevant to " John 's " dismissal of Ms. Shebshi 's experience because his white feelings were hurt . <p> The Wikipedia entry on white privilege is a good place to start learning about the concept . <h> pete.d <p> Sure . Of course we do . So , if and when there 's an actual threat in which there 's some clear evidence of wrong-doing , genuinely suspicious behavior that could lead to a plane getting blown up , by all means law enforcement should take that seriously . <p> But in this case ? None of that was present . Some facts : <p> None of the behaviors of the people arrested was actually genuinely suspicious It is not even plausible that any of the people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ plane . None of the people arrested so far for attempting to do so even came close to having a working plan that would have led to that result The plane was not even in the air , nor preparing to be in the air . That ship had sailed , and every passenger on the plane was assured of their " right to not be blown up in the air " , no matter what law enforcement did to the suspects <p> So next time you invoke your rights , please take the time to be sure they are relevant to the context . <h> Allison <h> Chris <p> yea lets use wikipedia for a backup because its soo reliable right ? and you racial idiots who say that white people have priviliges and as soon as you get approached about it you say that you were being " misunderstood " . i do nt care if your black white orange green or freakin pink . jump off this subject about profiling and feeling so " violated " . its gettin real old ! <h> Marnie <p> Chris , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you say , " you racial idiots who say that white people have privileges ... " <p> Anyone who can not identify with a strong feeling of violation by hearing that someone was wrongly accused , strip searched , and interrogated has lost not only any sense of what it means to be American ( if they ever had that , ) but is a cold and hardened human being ( if they still are considered ' human ' . ) <p> Why do n't we take your mom and dad , handcuff them , throw them in a dirty cell with no explanation , ability to use the restroom , or allowance to call you and explain why they never showed up at home after their plane landed , strip them , cavity search them , interrogate them , and then send them on their merry way after 4 hours -- and then tell me there was no violation . <p> And , if you can not acknowledge that there is still an advantage to being white in our society -- especially in this era -- then , you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not you 're actually aware of your ignorance . <p> Furthermore , if you 're so sure that Wikipedia is completely unreliable , then why do n't you provide references to your own credible resources , versus just shutting down hers ? <p> For such a moving , disturbing , and beautifully raw post , written by an honest , feeling person about their own tragic experience , the discussion seems to be rife with unfeeling , defensive , ignorant , and imperious commentary . <p> This is about a person , and all of our rights as Americans , to be free from subjection to violation -- regardless of the situation , and especially without due process . It was never about protecting a plane full of innocent people ; they were never in danger . ( Besides being protected when everyone was screened before boarding , this happened after there was no more question of their possible potential impending danger . ) <p> Whether you agree with the comparison to the climate in pre-WWII Germany , this quote by Martin Niemller certainly rings true they came for the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't I was n't a they came for Jews , and I did n't I was Jew . Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me . " <p> If there are n't protections for all Americans against this kind of abuse of power ( from wherever it stems , or is allowed , ) then soon none of us will be protected from frivolous encroachments on our rights -- for any reason , or none at all . The only entity which can protect our rights is us -- united together . <p> If you ca n't see this much , then you have no morally or intellectually valid leg to stand on in this discussion . <h> What To Do ? <p> Allison -- I 'm going to chime ine on the white/black piece . Would you let me know the ratio of black to white pro football players and pro basketball players . Please do n't say white 's have extra privileges ... if anything , the pendulum has swung back the other way . Agree with you Piper @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of books , Allison . Good for you . However , this is not an issue of " white privilege " by any definition . White German-Americans were treated much worse than this during WWI and WWII . That 's because we were at war with them . Now , we are at war with Islamic extremists who come primarily from the Middle East . If tall , blonde Swedish people were attacking us , they would be profiled , beaten , and treated unfairly just as the German-Americans were . I 'm not saying it 's right . I 'm saying that 's the bottom line . <h> bridgett <p> Bridgett , I 'm referring to the 9/11 bombers , who were all from the Middle East . There 's enough literature out there to educate you about Al-Qaeda that I should n't have to explain why we are hunting down Middle Eastern terrorists in Asia . Just google it . <h> I support Rationality <h> Sarah S <p> I see you do n't read a lot of history , Piper . During WWII we were at war with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of those two ethnic backgrounds got carted off to camps , had all their property stolen and after the war were denied for decades any legal redress of their wrongs ? ( Hint : it was n't the white-skinned ones . ) Guess which of those two ethnic groups perpetrated actual acts of sabotage against the US government , the fear of which formed the justification for the internment ? ( Hint : it was n't the brown-skinned ones . ) <p> By the way , I 'm white , grew up partly in the South and my ancestors were among the first settlers of Georgia . And it 's not the bottom line . The bottom line , if you 're American , is the truths we " hold to be self-evident " . Among those truths is NOT " run scared and trample on the Constitutional rights of anyone who looks different than you the minute you feel threatened . " <h> fonsmoonen <h> Gump <p> Whatever , I was a white kid who grew up in a mexican neighborhood . In my school , white people were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that situation . So sick of hearing that . If you 're singled out as being a gang member because you dress like a gang member , who 's fault is that ? <h> Allison <p> Silly me . When you said China has a perfect job for me , I assumed you invoked China rather than Obama for a reason . But I can understand how you 'd mistype " China " instead of " Obama " -- those keys are so close to each other on the keyboard ! <p> If you were n't calling me a Communist , you would n't have mentioned China . <h> Alice <p> With all due respect , Allison , Obama could have changed those policies the moment he got into office if he wanted to . Instead , he has done everything he can to expand on those power-grabbing policies , i.e. the " enhanced patdowns " that he specifically advocates . Take a look at the progression of the federal regulations and the executive interpretations on the issues . This is not a case of " Democrat good , Republican @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hell up . the same old white people are bad and others are good . what you idiots do nt know is that you get on here and talk about how profiling is wrong and stereotyping is wrong but yet you say as much bad as you can and call white people rednecks and say that white people have priviliges. thats stereotyping right there wow how stupid can allison , yodamite , and X , and steve bock get ? <h> Allison <p> Nothing in this comment thread , or in the concept of white privilege , states that whites are bad and others are good . We are talking about racial profiling that results in the violation of someone 's Constitutional rights . <p> Ms. Shepshi already admitted , in her original blog post , that her responses to the events were exactly what she was experiencing , and owned up to that . Again , I am amused that whites who read the post seem to focus ONLY on her gut-level reaction to being handcuffed , detained , strip and cavity searched , and interrogated , and not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ strip and cavity searched , and interrofated . <h> Anna <p> Allison -- What happened on that plane is atroicious . But when you can prove to me that all white people enjoy those same rights then maybe I will believe in your theory . As of now , I ca n't because it does n't take into account that people have individual stories and histories . That is one racist theory and you being a white person who believes it does n't make it any less racist . <h> Allison <p> Please explain how the fact that white people , in general and as a group , have certain privileges ( an assumption of normality , for example , or a decreased likelihood to be racially profiled , for another ) is racist rather than descriptive . <h> Yodamite <p> White privilege has already been demonstrated here multiple times -- not just including the events Mrs. Hebshi recalled . In this comment section , people have repeatedly disregarded the greater injustice inflicted on Mrs. Hebshi in favor of the minor insult directed at the white officers . They see @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hardship Mrs. Hebshi faced . They have blamed Mrs. Hebshi herself for her arrest , and have attempted to defend racial profiling . ( They have the advantage of promoting racial profiling , knowing full well that it will never impact themselves . ) They see racial discussion as an imposition on their lives and they seek to shut it down . <p> White privilege is not just a set of advantages that white people possess , but it is also the delusion that racial inequality does not exist and that people of color are at fault for not achieving the advantages that they have . This delusion also allows them the initiative to control the discourse on racial relations . <p> How often do we hear people like Chris pop up on sites like these and , in monosyllabic fashion , attack anyone who dares discuss racism ? His state of mind is the very definition of white privilege . <h> Yodamite <h> Rollie Fingers <h> Michelle <p> How about you not think about yourself for one moment out of your entire white-male life ? You have no clue @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ minority , to have some white person point a finger at you for nothing more than being brown or different and get hauled off by cops . Your white privilege is showing . You will never be strip searched and humiliated in front of a 50+ people with no reasoning given , purely because you do n't look like an " Real American . " <p> Your " hurt feelings " are the last thing that this is supposed to be about . Shame on you ! <h> Ahsan <p> Dear John- You 're right . Southern white men have never done anything evil . Love , former slaves , victims of Jim Crow laws , Native Americans , Latinos , women , Asians , and the rest of this increasingly " colored " country . " People " like you believe every lie that you suck from Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity 's teats . Yet you accuse this account for " blatant lies " ? Based on what ? Grow up and realize that the world is a much more nuanced and complex place than your provincial world @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And on behalf of the rest of us Americans , we 're ALL offended by you and your brothers in redneckery . <h> Daisymae <p> I too am a white Southerner ( very proud of it ) and I am ASHAMED of YOU and your Hideous , hateful remarks . It 's people like you who cause the rest of the country to believe such awful stereotypes of Southerners . <p> I am appalled , shocked , and horrified at what happened to Shoshanna and these two gentlemen -- innocent people just minding their own business . This hideous abuse of innocent Americans by our out of control government has to STOP ! <p> Real Americans -- real patriots -- will do everything in their power to oppose this abuse of our citizens . That includes morally upright Southerners . <h> Hitobito <p> John , You are not only white and a southerner , you are ignorant . You would n't be able to recognize a " blatant lie " if it landed on your pecker . She does n't have to " make the white man look bad @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it themselves . So , STFU . <h> George <p> John , just because you do n't believe it happened as described does n't mean it did n't happen exactly as she said it did , and if you take a derogatory comment as a reason to become all upset and offended , try for a second imagining you were in her place , and this happened to you . <p> Do n't you have a shred of compassion for a fellow person and an American citizen who was treated this way ? What about her RIGHTS ? <p> Can you imagine that you are in a place where there are mostly asian people , and you were taken off a plane , strip searched , and not told of what you were being held for . If you told your story of what happened , and made a comment on the way the person was making cracks about how they were going to make more overtime because you were being held , and how , for them , the tragedy of 9/11 was a great thing ... more $$$ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you being in that place . I am a white person , and have been in places where I was treated very different that someone who was from the area ( mostly jamaican and spanish people in this case ) , and it was pretty easy to get angry that they were treating me like this in my own country , and it would be very easy to comment on the way they looked , or their funny accents , or hair , or ... <p> Have people lost the ability to be compassionate to our fellow human beings , to see differences in ethnicity as a bad thing rather than an enriching thing to our communities , have we become the same as the people who caused and committed the attacks , and are we turning on each other now ? <p> I believe that Osama Bin Ladin achieved what he wanted in the end : and bankrupt country , in both a financial and spiritual way . It 's comments like yours that confirm this hypothesis . <h> LB <h> zirjo <p> JOHN .. she decided at that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and whatever comes along with it . In other words she hated the idea that white men was doing this to her . You know when someone refers as to rednecks that reminds me of ignorance . Not race and this is what she meant . by using this words . As in many societies there is lacks of education and and most of all competence on what you do in this case is security the people taken this kind of jobs and you see it in every port the woman about 70 years old with no bladder only a bag on her side to hold her pee ... but she must be searched because this is security or otherwise ( I could loose my job excuse ) Personnel taking this position are not the smart security force , you can think of them as untrained and not too smart but they could beat you if you resist , they do not know anything about privacy acts whatsoever very ignorant people that do things as if it was only one color in front of their eyes . I 'll @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are so stupid on their search you can stand there and see their mistakes and think how many people could go trough this isles and find dozens of ways someone could take illegal instruments into an airliner . Their job is completely unnecessary if there is another attack for sure will not be coming in an airliner any way . I appreciate authorities took a step towards security but this is done absolutely wrong . I hope that some day they can restore our liberties and stop scaring people throughout the whole USA . The so called ( patriots ) that call on these 3 are the 1st ignorant s .. the ones to follow are even more stupid .. till the bosses arrived FBI and others .... <h> Allison <h> Em <p> Yes , because in Detroit they make it a point to hire all officers of color seeing as it is a predominantly Black city ... right . <p> The Detroit Metro airport is located in Romulus , MI . The officers in this account were not local police officers . They are employed by the goverment . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ yes the majority of the officers &; TSA agents are White . In fact , every airport I have flown to the officers are predominantly White . Whites are the majority in this country . How is it odd that she only dealt with one officer of color ? <p> And if you are truly a compassionate White person so concerned with the civil rights struggles of other ethnic groups , why would you be offended by her reaction ? How would you react if you had been racially profiled ? I 'm sure you would have been completely logical &; not thought anything ill of any of the people who were mistreating you right ? And then to bring the term " whitey " into this ... I have to wonder where your motivation is when you are so " compassionate " and sympathetic to others causes ? We should be sympathetic to one another when we are mistreated . Do you want a pat on the back for being a half decent person ? <p> FYI , whites are NOT the majority in this country . Browns and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the majority . I for one hope that the non-white population of this country treats the white population better than we have treated them throughout the history of our country . Right now we whites are n't doing such a great job with that . <p> Ben Franklin said it best : " Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety , deserve neither Liberty nor Safety . " With our current policies on " preventing terrorism " , we have given up basic liberties guaranteed to us by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution as Allison pointed out . There is absolutely no evidence that treating our own citizens , whatever they look like , as if they ARE terrorists has PREVENTED even one single act of actual terrorism . <p> The kind of profiling that needs to be done does not depend on the color of a person 's skin or even whether they have a " foreign " accent . It depends on behavioral characteristics , as practiced for years by Israeli airport security . This should have been put into @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ extremely annoying , and mostly worthless things that have been done over the last 10 years . <h> jamie <p> Whites are no longer the majority of this country . I am lily white , country music listener , and cold beer in a coozie drinker yet I am not considered a red neck . I have been profiled not because of race but because of hair color . I am a blonde and a very smart blonde at that . I am an accounting major with a 4.0 gpa but people do n't know that all they see is a blonde ditz . Profiling happens with everyone white , black , asian , middle eastern no matter what our race is . With that being said it went to far in this poor womans story it should have gone down a different way as another poster said earlier whomever called this in should have been questioned further before anyone acted on this and also I would like to know if this was all acted upon by one " nervous " individual . <h> zirjo <p> Jamie I 'm so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ moment she would hate anything to do with Country music , and whatever comes along with it . In other words she hated the idea that white men was doing this to her . You know when someone refers as to rednecks that reminds me of ignorance . Not race and this is what she meant . by using this words . As in many societies there is lacks of education and and most of all competence on what you do in this case is security the people taken this kind of jobs and you see it in every port the woman about 70 years old with no bladder only a bag on her side to hold her pee ... but she must be searched because this is security or otherwise ( I could loose my job excuse ) Personnel taking this position are not the smart security force , you can think of them as untrained and not too smart but they could beat you if you resist , they do not know anything about privacy acts whatsoever very ignorant people that do things as if it was only @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tell you sometimes i had travel i noticed this people are so stupid on their search you can stand there and see their mistakes and think how many people could go trough this isles and find dozens of ways someone could take illegal instruments into an airliner . Their job is completely unnecessary if there is another attack for sure will not be coming in an airliner any way . I appreciate authorities took a step towards security but this is done absolutely wrong . I hope that some day they can restore our liberties and stop scaring people throughout the whole USA . The so called ( patriots ) that call on these 3 are the 1st ignorant s .. the ones to follow are even more stupid .. till the bosses arrived FBI and others .... <h> Sarah S <p> Oh ? You were pulled off a plane in handcuffs without explanation , had all your orifices examined by a stranger and were held while your husband and children waited anxiously with no word of what had happened to you for hours because you were BLONDE ? ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ DO realize that what happened to this woman was wrong- but please be careful of what premises you accept . Racial profiling does NOT mean people saying insensitive or hurtful things to you based on your personal appearance . It means having your civil rights violated based on your apparent ancestry . <h> Christian Zimbabwan <p> Omg your name is schultz ! you must be a white neonazi ! oh wait my name is Christian zimbabwan ! you probably think I 'm a dirty gorilla with the brain of a pea worshipping old books ! <p> ( this was just an example , I 'm not even black ) See , it 's hopeless , sickening , and it just makes me sick to be called an american nowadays . What ever happened to the land of the free so many brave men and women DIED for ? what ever happened to the CHRISTIAN country that accepted all believes with harmony ? We tolerate atheist and they urinate on the cross , wow . What ever happened to tolerance and respect ? Most saddening , those you got the respect @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Interesting is n't it . Well I 'm sure the type of people I 'm talking about might reply to me insulting me . Pretty easy to find them . <p> As for me , I 'm not paying overpriced ripoff air tickets to get searched like a delinquent so the other with no morals who loves to be touched by the TSA can feel " safe " . Even with all that bunch of crap security and bigotry you got a nigerian to blow up his pants . So it does n't seem effective besides constant terror on the population . Heck like many have said here , these terrorist have surely done a great job at bringing TERROR to YOU . I 'm more scared of my own people than someone blowing up the plane . Maybe if i comb my hair to the right they 'll think I 'm trying to cover explosive in my cranium . <h> Stacia <p> Not only that , but the one officer of color was a " fat Jada Pinkett Smith . " That 's a little too close to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for me to be comfortable with it . Some reactionary talk because of the situation seems perfectly legit , and I 'd qualify " fat bellies and rednecks " as such an expression , but Shoshana continues with multiple negative comments about weight and skin color and culture -- including the " fat Jada Pinkett Smith " comment -- and it makes me cringe . It just does . <p> Some people apparently think she deserved being singled out because she has proven after the fact to be as concerned about skin color as the panicky idiot on the plane who reported her because of her appearance . That 's a lot of crap . We live in a culture that routinely gives credence to citizens who profile based on race . In that way , even though Homeland Security did n't see these 3 people and detain them based on their appearance , they immediately believed a citizen who DID judge them based on appearance alone . <p> Homeland Security and law enforcement are racist because they are enabling a system that allows racism to go unchecked because of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ crimes as much as people of color do . Enablers of racism , enablers of fear . <p> Although it would be nice to have read this post without dealing with the author 's obvious **40;5882;TOOLONG ... attitude . <h> Marnie <p> If she thought all black people looked alike , then how would she know what Jada Pinkett Smith looks like ? <p> It 's getting more and more obvious that a large number of people here are reacting from their gut about past , building issues they are holding onto , and not using their heads , nor a clear , nonjudgemental perspective from which to address this travesty ... much less a sense of fairness , compassion , or even a less-than self-centered viewpoint ... <h> M <p> OR ... maybe that woman really did look like a fat Jada Pinkett-Smith . When I read Shoshana 's account , a number of things came to mind -- this is an intelligent woman who writes well , has a good sense of humor , is very observant and has interesting insights , is outspoken , is astute , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ rights , but very few people are ( and besides , the US Patriot Act leaves us with very little in circumstances like this ) . Anyway , I had no doubt that when she wrote that someone looked like a fat Jada Pinkett-Smith , the woman must have actually looked like that ! I do n't think it 's the **27;5924;TOOLONG trope at all but an astute observation with a pop culture reference . <h> Yoko <p> Maybe she did throw them into a stereotypical category based on what they looked like , but did she call " the authorities " on them and cause them to be subjected to the humiliation she went through ? No . So , it 's probably not fair to call her a hypocrite . Also , I 'll bet she was in the worst mood of her life so I 'll say a little name calling is okay in this situation . <h> Lance <h> Iqbal <p> You have no idea of what racial profiling is all about Schultz . You only ' think ' you do which is not the same @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the negative type can be mentally devastating and can leave deep psychological scars . As I come from a loving family background and I am emotionally secure , it does n't affect me at all . However , a lot of people are not so lucky and I fear for their mental well being . Schulz needs to swallow a big dose of humility . If you really want to understand the damaging effects of racial profiling , why do n't you go to Afghanistan and be an American ' guest ' of the Taliban ! ! <h> sstan <p> Considering everything that is being discussed , I do n't believe it is fair to assume Charles is white . Do you think he is white because his name is Charles ? The way he writes ? Have you seen this man before ? Met him ? You are certainly quick to assume -- which is exactly what the people on the airplane were doing -- assuming something suspicious was going on . <h> Allison <p> With all due respect , Mr. Heller , I think that such a response @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ anyone without a certain amount of privilege . <p> People with privilege , either racial or class/economic , can refuse to cooperate and have that refusal be seen as exercising their rights . Unfortunately , most of the time when people of color or or lower SES exercise their right to not cooperate , it 's most often seen as " resisting arrest " or refusal to cooperate for nefarious reasons . <p> I believe that such a reaction on the part of people without power would only exacerbate the situation . <p> Allison , thanks for writing that response to Mr. Heller . His advice is dangerous and misguided . It would have definitiely made the situation worse and Shoshana would have probably ended up with a charge , at minimum , in response to that type of behavior. <h> nickmalik <p> @Allison is correct . If she has refused to cooperate , she 's still be in prison . <p> I am of Indian and American descent and an American citizen . Ironically , my family history in the USA goes back to Bunker Hill , yet I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I was stopped regularly at airports and questioned because my first name is common in the middle east , even though I 've never used it . They 've cleaned up " the list " in the last few years , so I do n't get stopped anymore , but it is always on my mind . <p> Your experience is frightening because it is systematic . There is nothing that would " prevent " it from happening again , or even challenge the behavior of the government and airlines . <p> Racism has a part here . All it takes is one ignorant person , or one racist , in a position of even " relatively little authority , " and the system runs off the rails . There are no rules to prevent it . <p> And that is what worries me for our future . We have no right to redress these concerns . <h> Ginny <p> Honestly , I think refusing to cooperate would be bad for ANY person , regardless of age , race , sex , economic standing , etc . Really , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is exactly what Shoshana did . It 's horrible that she was put in that situation , but because she cooperated she now has a power of her own . She wrote this blog as a normal person , not as a radical who courageously ( and perhaps unwisely ) stood up to the " MAN " , but as a normal person who got stuck in a horrible situation . It 's when things start happening to normal people that we begin to evaluate what went wrong . Hopefully everyone who reads this will be able to reflect on what Shoshana has so bravely shared with us . Anybody could be " that person " on the plane ; both the person who was unjustly profiled and the person who overreacted by alerting security to an imaginary threat . Maybe by reading this , a future mistake can be avoided . <p> I think you are correct , I can not honestly and truly imagine myself in this situation , but I am pretty sure I would be scared out of my wits and would do whatever I thought @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ me to strip , yup fine ! Want me to talk ? Ok , done ! You want a BLT , give me the ingredients ... I wont even spit in it . I think when you are in that situation you just need to do whatever you deem is best for you -- to get you out of the situation . I would like to think that I would have gone in that interview room and in response to their questions repeatedly asked to be read my rights and informed why I was there , but honestly ... I would probably have been serving BLT 's ! ! ! <h> Jeffrey Renz <p> Actually , it 's a tightrope when you are being interviewed by a federal officer or agent . Shoshana was lucky to have encountered ethical agents . 18 USC 1001 makes it a felony to utter a false statement . The second you open your mouth in an interview like Shoshana 's you risk being charged with this offense . If you remember Martha Stewart or Barry Bonds or Scooter Libby , you 'll remember that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were investigated . They were convicted of uttering a false statement . 18 USC 1001 is the last refuge of a failed investigation . Shoshanna Hebshi was lucky . <h> Gump <h> Jane Wong <p> I agree with Allison . Shoshana did exactly what she should and could -- put all this information on the Internet and let it get as wide a distribution as possible . It is much harder to keep this kind of egregious behavior hushed up now than it was several years ago , and the public has a right to know . <h> Guest <p> If only that was the way the real world actually worked . I think you would be amazed how many Americans were imprisioned and denied representation after 9/11 because of it was under the the threat of terrorism . Also , I am surprised that you are " appalled " by Shoshana 's response yet you are not appalled with a person who reports suspicious activity to the authorities because of racial profiling . <h> Abhi <p> @Alison : Not wanting to " have difficulties " is exactly how you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to make a hue and cry about your rights being violated , it makes it an issue and forces them to change the way they do things . But if you were say a black person , and did not object to sitting at the back of the bus , that is exactly how they end up telling you to attend separate schools and make laws punishing you for sitting in front of the bus . But apparently rights and freedoms are something that do not matter much for you . <h> Allison <h> Ian <p> And if you DO sit in the front of the bus , and do n't give in to The Man , then you 're free -- and they drag you out in the middle of the night , set dogs on you , beat you half to death , then hang you the rest of the way to death , and then burn your body . <p> It 's not as effective a way to protest as you might think , unless you 've got a whole community backing you . <h> Allison <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ rights the way Rosa Parks did ! " crowd does n't understand is that Ms. Parks ' indeed very brave action was n't exactly spontaneous . She along with the NAACP and the SCLC had planned for months to engage in this civil disobedience , so she 1 ) had a plan , 2 ) was prepared for the opportunity , and 3 ) ( and most importantly ) had a network of confederates and legal people in place for when the event took place . <p> Ms. Shebshi , on the other hand , had none of those , so it 's a bit disingenuous to claim that she should have , in the heat of the moment , with no forethought or planning and no network of legal professionals , " stand up to the man . " <h> Ian <p> Yep , and that they chose Rosa Parks very carefully , and chose NOT to go with three or four OTHER volunteers , all equally brave , because they thought that there was possibilities of backlash , and of dragging names through the mud in order to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of wedlock , for instance ) . <p> That Rosa Parks was an activist , brave , intelligent , prepared , and with a team . We Americans like the idea of a lone brave person standing up to injustice , but one person ca n't stand up to an organized , systemic problem . It requires a whole team . This takes nothing away from Parks ; she is every bit the hero that people think she is -- just , she was backed with a huge team of OTHER heroes , as well . <h> Rich <h> More Scared of the Government <p> Allison put that quite nicely , but I would add that your response harkens back to an era where you could n't be cavity searched simply for being in row 12 and having darker skin than the people in row 11 . <p> She was n't practicing some form of civil disobedience -- she was sitting on an airplane waiting to get home to her husband &; children . <p> Due process went out the window in the past 10 years . No one was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 're sorry , but your lawyer is here and since we have no credible proof against you , we 're going to have to let you go . " If she had n't been tweeting ? There 's no reason to believe that her family would 've been able to figure out where she was if she had continued to be detained " in the interest of national security . " <p> There IS precedent that they can detain you without cause , which makes this a very tricky proposition . I agree that we must resist the abuse of authority , especially since this is clearly evidence that our country has now reached a fascist existence and anything can happen to any of us . Even this very statement of opinion is doubtless being recorded , analyzed , and reported somewhere in our country 's intelligence apparatus . But in this situation I feel safe enough , for the moment at least , to make the statement against our authorities ' behavior . So please , Mr. Heller , do not be appalled , but offer constructive criticism and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now know to not converse . But I suspect weighing one 's options during the experience is the only thing that has kept many an innocent individual safer in all the countries and regimes who have experienced the era we are just beginning to enter . Having heard my parents talk of disappeared acquaintances during the military regime in 60 ? s and 70 ? s Brasil , I never dreamed I would could be facing this disgusting and repulsive situation after my parents brought us here for a better opportunity . This is truly disgusting and we must fight at any chance we get , but perhaps not once each of our very breaths are directed by detainment. .. and I DO wonder who ALL these terrorists are . Are n't we all just pawns in someone 's game ? How many individuals are there who feel they can manipulate not only you and me , but masses of us . They must be brought low . Cooperation can make us much greater than the fear and survivalist paradigms . PEACE . <p> Um , no , there 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ This woman 's constitutional rights were shredded . <p> Everyone 's thoughts about race here are missing the point : this can happen to any of us . As a " white man " who has been unlawfully detained by DHS ( see my blog ) , I am keenly aware that even if they FIRST come for those with darker skin , you can rest assured that if we ALL do not resist NOW that they will eventually come for us all . <p> Charles Haller , It is easier said than being done . I can not imagine what would have happened to Shoshana if she had refused to answer their question . This country is not what it used to be . Do n't forget " the great patriot act " which allow the government agencies to apprehend without release . <p> Oh , come on . You 're appalled at her actions ? While you have a point with regards to exercising personal rights , your harsh and disrespectful tone to her in that single sentence is unnecessary ; besides , I think the unfortunate reality @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the lines of Allison 's comment . <h> Daniel <p> On the other hand however , by complying with the law , she 's been able to leave much quicker . I do not believe that it is in anyway the officers fault , they have just been doing there job ; yes things like strip searches are humiliating , but you have to look at it from their point of view too . They did n't know if she was an actual terrorist or not , so they are obviously going to take every precaution necessary to make sure they are safe . Fortunately she was innocent , but who is to say , that of those other 50 cases across the country , that someone else was n't ? You just do n't know that , and while it 's unfair that she has been detained , someone on that plane has reported her , and the authorities have acted on that report . Compliance would only help her too , as refusal to talk is often suspicious , and if she has nothing to hide , which @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ any reason not to talk . <h> ayesha <p> i do n't know ... i do n't buy that they have the right to arrest , detain and strip search an individual just because someone says they think that person might be a terrorist ... this is the problem with profiling. someone could easily report me just because i look muslim and foreign ( it has happened to me , but thankfully i was n't detained or anything , and the cops were very nice ) . and i should be understanding of being strip searched because they have to make sure i 'm not a terrorist ? ? ? shoshana 's story makes my blood boil , i 'm sorry ... i have no problem complying with extra security measures , i 've been docile as a dove with my TSA encounters and i 'll even understand a little extra attention based on mine and my hubby 's " muslim " appearance , whatever . but something like this ? hellz to the no. just my opinion . <h> Exillior <p> You need to review the States ' Terrorism @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is called the Patriot Act in the States . In the UK , from the moment you 've been suspected of being a terrorist , it is possible for the law to detain you for 28 days ( that was supposed to expire on Jan 2011 but I do n't think it has ) without ANY charge being made against you , and your assets are automatically no longer yours . <p> Well said . Here is one thing I do n't understand about all of the TSA , if everyone , and as sad as I am to say it more so Muslims or those looking like them , are so thoroughly searched before even getting to the gates why would they even think that someone could have bombs strapped to them as this poor woman was asked about . <p> " They did n't know if she was an actual terrorist or not , so they are obviously going to take every precaution necessary to make sure they are safe . " <p> That does n't follow . It 's true of most of the people you 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ KNOW whether they 're actual terrorists , but that does n't entitle anyone to " take every precaution " for safety . <p> " Compliance would only help her too , as refusal to talk is often suspicious , and if she has nothing to hide , which she obviously did n't , then she would n't have any reason not to talk . " <p> So you would n't mind if we allowed the police to randomly search any home in the US without a warrant . This should n't be a problem for you , unless you 've got something to hide , right ? <p> This is because we have abdicated personal responsibility to the system ; we do n't trust individual officers to evaluate the situation ( any non-racist person could easily look at the three people detained and determine that they were not a threat ) , because so many are corrupt , so we process everyone through a " process " equally demeaning to all who pass through it . <h> Liz <p> Did you know that Communist regimes and Hitler used that " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fear " BS ? There is. no. excuse . for what the authorities did . None . None . That you are trying to justify their actions because they make us " safer " is apalling , disgusting , and obscene . Tell you what , YOU go get thrown into prison , get strip-searched , and be prohibited from making any phone calls to your family or a lawyer , without cause . Then come back and tell me it was just fine , just a minor inconvenience in the name of safety . <h> Jen <p> Your response begs the question ... does n't the FBI have a compiled list of known terrorist ? If not why would n't they work on finding out who they are and target them instead of our great citizenship . I know for a fact that the airports have a compiled list of " suspicious names " they check . ( I have traveled with friends who are stopped every time they travel ) They know that much . What about all the " security measures " taken at the gate ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the gates are pointless and faulty ? Should n't we be concerned with that instead of harassing our citizens ? What have we really gained with all these " security measures " anyway ? A false sense of security that means nothing anyway because if you " look " suspicious you can be pointed out even to the point of being aboard a plane and landed , safely mind you , detained for an unknown amount of time without any contact , without any knowledge ( a.k.a your civil rights denied ) . Meanwhile the real terrorist can probably get through the checks and gates without being detected . Maybe what we are saying is that we have come full circle to McCarthy era like fear where we point out our neighbors as terrorist in place of communist . At the very least we should look at a process where we are unfairly detain OUR people and not detain FOREIGN travelers . I do n't believe I have read of an instance where Homeland security detained FOREIGN travelers for suspicious activity on an airplane or otherwise . And do you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ travel here to the U.S. with the knowledge that we have cracked-down on our incoming foreign visitors and therefore they would not spend their MONEY here . It 's easier to appear to be doing something when we use our own people as scapegoats then to target the real problem . <h> Rob <p> Mr. Heller is correct that you would be within your rights not to cooperate . Let 's play that out though : Would they still detain you ? Yes , they only need " a reasonable suspicion , " in this case based on the citizen report . Would they still search you ? Yes . They can do that in order to protect themselves from potential weapons . Would they still question you ? Yes . You might have a lawyer there ( and a wait for the lawyer to arrive from origin unknown given that you 're in a city away from home -- how many criminal defense attorneys do you know outside , or even inside , your own city ? ) and the lawyer might advise you not to answer certain questions @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you 're likely to be released , but all you 've done is wasted your own time and money delaying the inevitable . Not very good advice Mr. Heller . <h> John Q. Public <p> Well , Rob , for some people dignity and self-respect are worth more than money and time . Without those people we become a society of sheep , bending over naked while some TSA flunky shines a flashlight up our buttholes . I never cease to be amused at the number of Americans who crow about how free they are yet do n't see a problem with TSA activities . It 's nothing short of Gestapo/KGB behavior . <h> Daniela <p> I think her response was mature and right . While the authorities may not have treated her with fairness and respect , she was the BETTER person and proved her intelligence , bravery , and understanding the best anyone could in that situation . If I ever found myself in that situation I would hope that I would act the same , although I do n't know that I would have the strength @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ someone whose top priority is to talk to her husband and let him know she is O.K. it would be more beneficial for her to comply with the authorities . She was able to call her husband and was eventually released because she complied with them . If she had been detained any longer , her husband would now know the situation and be able to get a lawyer involved to have her released . If she had disobeyed their orders she would have been held even longer and personally , to be stressing over whether your loved ones think you are alive or dead is much worse than answering a few questions for the FBI . <h> Steve Bock <p> This woman was falsely imprisoned , hand-cuffed , stuck in a small cell , deprived of a bathroom , and finally strip -searched ( including her body cavities ) . And you have the gall to suggest that she should have refused to cooperate ? That her behavior appalled you ? If she 'd been uncooperative , they would have kept her locked up for days , and certainly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ You talk like a big guy . Let 's see how tough you are after a cop has you in cuffs , against the wall , with his gloved finger probing your anus. <h> laars <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> Something to consider . Was she read her Miranda rights and was she arrested ? If not , she should have been let go immediately and if so , she had the rights to an attorney immediately . But , in the case of suspected terrorism , does n't Jurisprudence go out the door and then they can detain her indefinitely without the right to a fair and speedy trial ? Also if martial law is declared , there is no more Jurisprudence . People can be arrested without being told why and then be held for indefinite lengths of time . <p> Someone needs to report to Americans ( or anyone in the US ) what they should do in an instance like this . <p> I so agree with you Erin . Even though I am living in Sweden this made my heart and eyes pour out sadness @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ respectful thing that happened in the event described . Your story scares me because of the similarities to what the Nazi did during world war two when they singled out people solely based on their Jewish or Romano descent . That also happened because of fear and ignorance . I send you perfect love straight from my heart and soul and I feel you are a true hero for not loosing your temper and remaining calm towards your aggressors . <h> Concerned <h> Allison <p> My responses to the comments here have been calm and reasoned . I do n't believe I have called anyone names . I have asked for evidence for people 's statements , and have disagreed with people . Disagreement is not hate . Asking for evidence is not starting problems . <h> Allison <h> BayAreaBiker <p> I have exactly similar sentiments as Yoko . This whole unfortuante event with Ms Hebshi and how she carried herself through the ordeal and the support she received in the form of comments from folks like Allison is admirable , and a leanring experience in its own . <h> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ well . I am completely sure that if I were in Ms. Shebshi 's situation , I would not have responded with such grace and calmness . Her strength of character is admirable . <h> Marnie <h> Karen <p> Shirley Pakulslo- Are you for real ? I can completely believe this story . Though I have never had to endure this kind of treatment , after 9/11 every time I f'lew I was ' randomly selected ' to be searched . Turns out my maiden name was the same as someone on the terrorist watch list . I am a blue eyed light haired , American citizen . I once flew with a Jewish friend of mine who had olive skin and a dark bushy beard . We were both pulled out for search . My friend said " I get why I am being pulled out but ca n't figure out why you are ! " It happens everyday , people are so afraid . This woman has endured enough , no need for you to call her a liar . As it happens since I have been married @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out of line . <h> laars <p> karen so you got pulled out of line big deal so have i. im just a white guy minding my own business and i got nothing to hide i say check away . as far as it was because the color of her skin maybe look at all the terrorist pic , hmmmmm. sorry if you were late for dinner honey . <h> Sam <p> Please do explain how something picked up by news agencies is bullshit . Do n't say you 're sorry because you are not . You may not want to believe it , but it happens all the time . It 's too bad if your illusions about freedom and liberty for all took a hit , but any student of history could have told you that such an America never existed . Sice 9/11/01 it 's certainly entered the realm of the implausible . <h> Marnie <p> Let 's be clear : There is no reason to call this story bullshit . Why did you even read it , or bother to post that if you really believe @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be VERY careful of claiming , or even believing , that because something is reported in the big business of the News Agencies , that it is fact ... They are just as penetrable by corruption and lies as the government ! ( Money speaks loudly to every one ! ) <h> Sophie <p> If anyone was ever confused as to what the word ' privilege ' means , here it is in a nutshell : believing that because you personally have never encountered harassment , then the harassment can not be real , and the people who are reporting it must have something wrong with them . <h> borkula <p> Hey Shirley , wake up . This kind of stuff happens all the time . If you do n't believe me , here 's an experiment you can do . Wear a veil or turban for a week and see how people treat you . it 's a pretty enlightening social experience . <p> Or dye your hair some fluorescent color . <p> Or if that 's too threatening for you , just borrow a rusty/primered car and drive @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ see how much more frequently you get pulled over/ticketed vs your cozy SUV . <p> Try dressing to give the appearance that you are homeless and sitting in a park for an afternoon . See how long it takes the police to swing by . Do n't worry , it wo n't take long . <p> If her story seems strange to you , it 's probably because you 've always stayed where ' people like you belong ' . Step outside your sheltered little world and you 'll find that it 's a very different place . <h> Andrew <h> Liz <p> " Lousy experience . " Well , are n't you the master of the understatement . So , if you 're ever imprisoned without cause and strip-searched , and not told what the whole ordeal was about until it was over , you 'll be fine and wo n't be angry or upset because , hell , it was just a lousy experience . Y'know , like being cut off on the interstate . <h> Yoko <p> Maybe she did throw them into a stereotypical category based @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " the authorities " on them and cause them to be subjected to the humiliation she went through ? No . So , it 's probably not fair to call her a hypocrite . Also , I 'll bet she was in the worst mood of her life so I 'll say a little name calling is okay in this situation . I 've never heard of a better excuse . And I think her experience was a little more than lousy . <h> Katiebug <p> This argument is a paradox to this entire conversation . One stereotyping instance is acceptable when another is not ? Just because the degree differs , does not mean the basis does . Hate is hate , to be quite honest . <p> Food for thought : What if the person who reported that row for suspicious activity had been in the " worst mood of his/her life " ? Perhaps it was only name calling and it was okay in that person 's situation , too . <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> I see exactly why she reported on descriptions of people . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be fair to her story , she had to describe the people interrogating her to show if any looked like her or how they appeared . That was quite obvious as to her intentions with these descriptions . I am surprised that it flew over a few peoples ' heads . <h> dalancroft <h> StartProfilingNow <p> How is this so horrible ? Were you arrested ? No . Were you paraded in front of the media and your picture all over the TV ? No . You got detained and asked questions for a few hours and it was a little scary . But you were n't beat up . You were n't charged with a crime you did n't commit . It is what it is . It was the 10th anniversary of 9/11 ! It was a day when the media reported they wanted to attack as if we needed to be told . It 's a plane ride , your normal freedoms do n't apply . Do n't give me and the rest of us this shit that you were profiled due to race . B.S. You @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ something odd . I ca n't recall the last time I saw 2 men in the same row both get up and hang out at the bathroom for a long period of time . I could give a f*uck what race or creed or age they are ; if people do something suspicious it is what it is . Did you know they are pulling the oxygen masks out of the plan bathrooms because someone could go in there and blow the oxygen connection up easily ? It takes time to fix all the planes . I hope and pray we start profiling in this country . No , not radical profiling that would be moronic and pointless . Profiling is where you watch the body language and other behaviors of a person and experts can pick out people who are more likely up to something bad . So you had a scary day but surprise surprise you went home quickly because you were innocent . But it had to be checked out . What if your seat mates really were bad guys ? What do you expect us to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't have civil rights . Have the innocent hikers come home yet from Iran ? No . So , I do n't blame you for being shook up and upset , but stop playing the race card as that 's f*ucking ridiculous . You yourself admitted you never had any problems before . Gee , I wonder why ... <p> Thank you so much for sharing your story . I hate that this happened to you but I 'm so glad you wrote about it . I teach Social Studies to 7th and 8th graders . I read your narrative to them today as a follow up to something we were discussing in class -- how we have changed as a society since 9/11 . I have never had a class of students sit so quietly and so attentively . It was a great starting off point for a lively discussion on the impact of increased security on the rights and liberties of citizens . Thank you for your story . I wish it had never happened . <h> Sybrsean <p> 1 : the quality or state of being free @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ b : freedom from physical restraint c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d : the positive enjoyment of various social , political , or economic rights and privileges e : the power of choice <p> Our country 's founders liberty , not democracy . Ron Paul <p> We hold these truths to be : that all men are created equal ; that they are endowed with certain unalienable rights ; that among these are life , liberty , and the pursuit of happiness . Thomas Jefferson <p> Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation , conceived in Liberty , and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal . Abraham Lincoln <p> Let every nation know , whether it wishes us well or ill , that we shall pay any price , bear any burden , meet any hardship , support any friend , oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty . John F. Kennedy <p> Liberty can not be preserved without general knowledge among the people . John Adams <p> Liberty has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the subjects of it . The history of liberty is a history of limitations of governmental power , not the increase of it . Woodrow Wilson <p> Give me liberty or give me death . Patrick Henry <p> I will gladly take the risk of death for " Liberty " , over the prospect of no Liberties for " Security " . Vote Ron Paul 2012 and restore Liberty to this country . What happened to you is an atrocity , it 's NOT AMERICAN . <h> Calin Brabandt <p> Shoshana , you should rethink your decision to fly entirely ! This could 've happened on any day ( other versions of your story certainly do happen every day ) . People must refuse to fly the airlines for any purpose , period ( pleasure , business , family matters , etc . ) ! There is too much money in the " security " business and the sociopaths and tyrants running it are all power-drunk control freaks . Political processes will never end it . Vote with your wallet . Do n't buy the ticket . Do n't take @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tourist bureaus everywhere why you are not flying . When you and 10% or more of the population joins me , the senseless tyranny will end ! <h> UNITED STATES VET . <p> GET OVER IT .... What about all those who died 10 years ago ? Think about things from others point of view ? The odds of 3 people all from the same ethnic background all sitting together in the same row . The two males acting out of the normal range , and this all taking place on 9/11 . Obviously something was done to alert the crew to take said action . I fly every week , and see all kinds of behavior , so something must of caused the crew to react in the way they did . In my opinion , you just wanted to get exposure , and attention . Im sick to death of babies crying racial profiling , and discrimination . We are not living in candy land , with puppy dogs , and warm hugs . We have lost so many good people , so many soldiers . If officails @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ thier finger up your ass to keep it safe , so be it . Why do nt you ask the family and friends of all who died on 9/11 if they would of minded if those resonsible had been harrased just a little bit . <h> ruth <p> With all due respect to your service and those who died on 9/11 , sir or ma'am , no . No , I will not relinquish my rights or those of others because someone with poor judgment may have overreacted . Our Constitution does not support violating someone with probing of their orifices , including their vagina and/or butthole , based on unfounded suspicions . The three people were not of the same ethnic background -- two were , one was not . We 've lost so many people over so many years and decades to maintain the integrity of our Constitution and our rights , including my father and many of his colleagues . As for 9/11 , intelligence agencies and the presidents had information months before it occurred , yet they chose to ignore the warnings . <h> orangecountyresident <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ even if you were among the Navy Seals that blew away Osama bin Laden . It 's racist pig Americans like you that cause me to lose respect for your country and your people . Since you expressed yourself about the OP having a finger stuck in her in such a flippant way , you have the potential to be a rapist bent on committing anal rape on women and men alike . I do n't feel safe living in the same country with people like you . You are more of a threat to this country than those 19 hijackers that struck on 9/11 . <p> You are more of a threat to this country than those 19 hijackers that struck on 9/11 . <p> While I agree completely with this statement , I 'll suggest that it would be heard by more people were it not surrounded by your obvious anger . I 'm angry as well I 'm angry about the dehumanization of the American people and countless other people over the course of history . But acting in anger and expressing anger are not effective remedies @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that people like " United States Vet " ( I 'm a veteran myself ) are not at all representative of the overwhelming majority of Americans , and are no more than fringe groups that the government and media are attempting to stir up to revolutionary violence . Let us hope that they are no more influential on the ground than they are in this conversation . <h> orangecountyresident <p> I am angry . I 'm angry that people like UNITED STATES VET who serve this country have racist and sexist attitudes and these bastards think they know what patriotism is when in fact they do n't know shit about patriotism . People who wear their patriotism on their sleeve like that are jingoistic jack-booted Nazis . The only people in uniform I respect as those who do n't suffer from Islamaphobia or who do n't go around judging people or make excuses for bad behavior as UNITED STATES VET has . Too often , people in uniform are very disrespectful towards those who are not in uniform or who do n't think like them . I do n't have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 're going to be an asshole about it as UNITED STATES VET has , then do n't expect me to respect you . <p> Quite often when someone directs anger at another person , people who witness it who are not angry about the same thing tend to try to find excuses for that other person , in order to avoid becoming angry . Seldom does one person 's anger change the mind of anyone else who is already angry about the same thing in any other way . It does not gain support , and tends to soften support that it already has . And as far as having any effect on the person at whom one is angry , expressions of anger most often met with denial , resistance , and hardening of whatever attitude or opinion inspires the anger in the first place . <p> Our anger , however , has power and like any other power , it gains strength and increases as long as it is not used . Undeserved anger returns its power on the person who is angry it 's a double-edged sword @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in one 's own interest , not " against " others except where there is no choice at all . <p> And in all cases , it 's best to control your anger rather than let it control you . <h> Derrick S. <p> The next step is obvious , just ask any Japanese American who lived during WW2. , especially if there another attack . <p> It 's a damn shame this country talks about standing tall and not balking at the face of terrorism yet that 's exactly what it 's done and in the process innocent people like you suffer from minds that have given in to fear . <p> I was not offended by her description in the least . Being a middle-aged white man who is slightly overweight and sometimes sports a flat top haircut , I think can explain the difference . Her statements were her own opinion . I happen to hate rednecks , beer bellies , country music , and speedboats , but that does n't make me prejudice about them . -- it 's only my opinion . Shoshana was only @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ saw , what she experienced , and what she felt -- intimidated . While she was being treated like a criminal before any proof had been presented . If her description offended you , then you are rather thin-skinned and missed the whole point of her blog entry . <p> You say you " hate " a specific kind of music and a specific kind of person ... " I decided that I hated country music . I hated speedboats and shitty beer in coozies and fat bellies and rednecks . " Then you are just as guilty as those you claim profiled You . Shame on you . Maybe you would feel more comfortable in another part of the world , with " like-minded " people . USA would be happily left to hard working people , who listen to country music and drink crappy beer ! Goodday , MIss . Go spread your hatred of America and its citizens somewhere else . <h> Allison <p> Her hatred of country music , speedboats , and shitty beer did n't result in someone spending hours in a dirty holding cell @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ interrogated . <p> By the way , in the USA , people can hate stuff that you like . But usually it does n't result in Constitutional rights violations , the way it did in this case because someone " hated " ( or at least distrusted ) Ms. Shebshi 's skin color . <h> Alice <h> Liz <p> Cathy , you are the epitome of what is wrong with this country . She is a CITIZEN , you moron . She was subjected to abject degradation by people who fit all those things she does n't like . So , hating country music deserves imprisonment and strip searches ? You are an imbecile , and you and your ilk are the cause of our losing the precious liberties you claim to love but in truth are willing to give up in the name of " safety . " <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> She was being ironic . I am surprised at how people are missing this . Someone decided she was a terrorist based upon how she looked , so she pointed out how silly it was to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Murphy <p> I am sorry that you had to endure this terrible ordeal and I agree that what happenend to you was completely unfounded and unfair , however , I find it very ironic that you say in your blog <p> " I believe in tolerance , acceptance and trying -- as hard as it sometimes may be -- not to judge a person by the color of their skin or the way they dress . I admit to have fallen to the traps of convention and have made judgments about people that are unfounded . " <p> Yet earlier in your post you say " I stared at the yellow walls and listened to a few officers talk about the overtime they were racking up , and I decided that I hated country music . I hated speedboats and shitty beer in coozies and fat bellies and rednecks " <p> Seems to me that you do n't want to have anyone pass judgement on you because of the way that you look or dress , yet you have no problem making judgements on others . As someone who lives @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ignorant people in this country have a pre-conceived notion that all Southerner 's are fat , hillbilly rednecks and that simply is not true . All I am trying to say is to not be a hypocrite in your words and deeds but to apply those same principles to others . <h> anonymous <p> Honestly Shoshana , would you have rather the authorities not have inspected you and the other two men and found that you never made it home that day to see your children ? Just saying , what if the other two men had done something ? You have to admit that two men , of simillar ethnic origin , sitting next to eachother getting up to the bathroom at the same time is a little strange . Often times people who sit next to someone of the same ethnic origin on a plane know eachother . Ask yourself this question , do you tend to have friends of the same ethnic origin ? Or do you only have friends of a differant origin ? <p> I hope everyone whom had a part in this unnecessary , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ behavior ) realize that these violations against you can not be undone , and realize that they should beg you for their forgiveness . <h> M. d'P <p> Sympathies to Shoshana , but welcome to the real world of African Americans every day -- not just on 9/11 : walking down the street in any city , flying on a plane , driving through wealthy neighborhoods -- the treatment you received because of how you look is still the norm for us . A further statement about civil liberties . <h> Aaron <p> wah wah wah . People are gon na be on pins and needles when government officials say we have a credible threat and they see suspicious behavior . Better safe than sorry and yes no one should be treated inhumanely especially when no one knows if they are doing anything wrong , but I sure wish people 10 years ago would have sent an F-16 to take down the people that had different colored skin that day . <p> You are a brave and beautiful soul , and it is a sad state of affairs when someone @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ such treatment , especially at the hands of the law . Sadder still that such divisions still exist in a world where we are all really brothers and sisters . I am a Jewish American , and though I can ' blend ' in and I am proud of my heritage , though I know many people dislike Jews here and abroad . They also do n't realize that being that being anti-arab is another form of anti-semitism as we are both semitic people , though most Jews have fairer traits , AS IF IT MATTERS ! G-d bless you , you dear brave soul ... May you know peace , and happiness for all of your years . <h> Ben <p> I once worked as a temp unloading refridgerated containters with boxes of chocolate into a refridgerated warehouse onto pallets for distribution to local stores . We were getting chocolate from Germany , Switzerland , and France . We were also unloading boxes of chocolate from Mexico , Columbia , and China ( this was just after the recall of toys from China for using lead based paint ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a few sample boxes of the German and Swiss chocolate . One day I asked him why only the German and Swiss , I was more concerned with the boxes from China and Mexico , his reply was that the boxes from Germany and Switzerland were the only ones on his list to check . Later that night I told my Father about the incedent , my Father , who had just retired from the Federal Goverment , chuckled and said " If you do not look for problems in the place they are most likley to occur you will not find them until it is too late " . Miss Shoshana I apologize for the entire ordeal , and I thank you for what you went through for everyone else 's safety . <h> John Palmer <p> We are terribly sorry to have you go through this ordeal Shoshana . We need to start finding some ways to identify , verify , than act . It appears in this case they identify and acted . This process leads to many mistakes . As a pilot , we have a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ would have asked for more verification before I make a decision and land the plane and maybe the pilots did . Unfortunately , it was September 11 and everyone was on the edge . <h> Bill <p> Shoshana , I do n't know you , and likelihood is I never will . Like many below , I am very sorry that you had to go through such an experience . What is encouraging to me , and hopefully just a bit encouraging to you and others , is that there are so many others who are outraged at what happened . Of course , I say this with all fairness in mind to those who took the actions , but I do wonder if there would have been a similar reaction if the three of you were white ... As a white person in our culture , I sort of doubt it . For me , this is not merely " white guilt " at play , but rather a sad reality . I appreciate people 's alertness ( the modicum , " If you see something , say something @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ many lessons in this is that we should all take a little personal responsibility -- did any of the flight crew or potentially concerned passengers say a single thing to any of you prior to calling the authorities ? From the sounds of it , probably not . In my mind , that should have been the first step -- if something concerned them , they should have done a little more investigation on their own before jumping to such rash conclusions . Unfortunately , paranoia strikes deep . I wish you the best in the future , and if nothing else , I hope that I can keep this in mind should I ever find myself profiling another human being for such an innocuous action . Peace to you . <h> Leyla <p> It is unfortunate that this happened , but I understand . If a bunch of young caucasion males had bombed Japan on flights , and then 3 caucasions end up in the same row , flying on the 10th anniversary , then it is nothing more than an unfortunate misinterpretation . Had we been more paranoid @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 10th anniversary . Unfortunately , for the 3 passengers , it was a wrong place at the wrong time incident . Sorry ! <p> Do not believe for one minute that just because of the color of your skin and your race that they are profiling people who appear to be Middle Eastern . The color of your skin may have exacerbated the scrutiny , but that is not only factors involved ! I am nothing near in appearance to anyone resembling someone from Southwest Asia or the Middle East and I was cuffed , strip searched and humiliated because the Security Officer with TSA said that my clothes were baggy , loose fitting and I seem to be carrying something concealed as I was going through the security check-point at the airport . The real kicker , I was boarding in my Military Uniform , on a Military Purchased ticket , with Military Orders to fly , with my Military ID Card and the concealed item was my cap , tucked-in behind me belt in the rear . The Security Officer said I posed a threat and I was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the following day and I did not get someone telling me thanks for my cooperation , I got a jerk that told me that I am just as suspect as anyone else ... People are bending over backward to not let profiling be the main reason for their suspicion , but it seems every-time that anyone who resembles a Middle Eastern , cries that it is just about profiling them . Stop already , those of who are not Middle Eastern and are being detained far more often that those of Middle Eastern appearance and we are not going to the media , or filing suits for discrimination and we certainly are not claiming profiling . You are not being " Profiled " , if anything , people who resemble Middle Easterner 's are receiving more benefit and avoidance from what would otherwise be a reason to detain someone . <h> What To Do ? <h> Yoko <p> There did n't seem to be any other reason for her detainment other than the color of her skin and that she was sitting next to other dark skinned people who went @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was already on the plane , had already been through security and was on her way home . I do n't think she 's being a cry baby about this . I think she 's sharing her story because people need to know what 's happening and maybe if enough people speak out , our way of doing things in situations like this will be more fair and right . Then maybe NO ONE will be cuffed , stripped , and searched , and ALL innocent americans will be able to avoid experiences like your 's and her 's . I , for one , hate when people " play the race card , " but in this case it feels totally warranted . <h> Concerned US Citizen <h> Tim <p> Sorry but the Terrorists are mostly middle eastern looking people , not american looking people . But that does not matter . What matters is you were a little inconvenienced , and luckily you were n't a threat . get over it or do n't fly . If a real problem was on the plane you would be the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . I do nt care if they check me , I want to be safe when flying ..... <h> Allison <h> TJ <p> This is the world we live in . I hate the race card but its played against me often . I 'm stopped if I 'm out late in my own suburban neighborhood . And of course the story is , " we 've had reports a of stolen vehicle matching your description " . Your incident just happened on 9-11 . Mines occur any evening after midnight . <h> Roberta <p> Well , I do n't know what is beautiful about this story . It is a blatant example of a violation of civil liberties . It 's a well written documentation of facts . I hope that you never have to endure anything like this ever again . I also hope that the state of our world can someday get to a point where we can feel safe and secure , and that such suspicion , detentions , searches , et . al . will be uneccessary . I am so sorry for your ordeal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Airlines . I am A Cherokee Nation Citizen and was " Racially Profiled " in March in a flight from St Lewis to Memphis on Delta Air Lines . No apology ! Should I have Stopped a Delta Airline Employee driving down the highway and asked to see their Driver 's Licence witt out being able to articulate a seriously valid " Probable Cause To Believe " some form of violation of law or public safety had been or was being committed I would be in Deep DO-DO ! As stated by one of our National Founders " Those who sacrifice essential freedonm in order to buy a little tempory security , Deserve Neither Freedom Or Security ! " Homeland Security should be renamed to The " Department of Positive Paranoya " ! <h> Spock <p> I agree with Erin . I am surprised at some of the comments . In fact Shoshana was very gracious given the treatment she received . Some of these comments which are critical of shoshana are harsh reminders of what will happen if Tea Party gets elected . Everyone who does not conform to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fellow citizens wake up to the true values of decency and rationality . <h> J Rodman <p> If someone makes inaccurate statements about a group , it would be making false statements . If done so willfully , it might be lies . If done so to deliberately make them look bad to damage their public character , it might be libel or slander . <p> If the Tea Party as a group is being accused of supporting racial profiling , because of the actions of a few members , then it could be called generalization . An insistence on keeping a view of the Tea Party despite any and all information might be bigotry . Deciding what they 're about before learning any real information might be prejudice . <p> However , it 's not *racial profiling* until we 're setting up police checkpoints and throwing Tea Partiers in jail . <p> Do you understand the difference between " saying mean things " and putting people into cells for arbitrary periods without any crime or reasonable suspcion thereof ? Because you do n't seem to . <h> Trey <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , not black , not Asian , they were Arab ! ! So call it what you want , if we do nt " racially profile " we are going to get burnt again ! ! If we handicap ourselves by trying to be politically correct , the enemy wins because thats what they are taking advantage of . If you 're Arab in this country , stop complaining or go back to your mother land . In other words , try to be a part of the solution , not the problem . <h> Fresh kee <p> wake up dude , nobody attacked you . it was all planned and set-up by the Bush administration . do more research online ........ what happen to WTC-7 , not plane crashed in ? Bush needed a war so he created one by killing its own citizen ... the other plane that crashed has no reminant .. but they where able to pick IDs of the terrorist . Foolish satanic America , i wonder why they are always fighting ..... one day America will come ruin . check 911truth.org and see more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for 911 if not planned . <h> Concerned US Citizen <h> Torus <p> Timothy McVeigh . If you wan na say that racial profiling is good in order to not be attacked again , then 72 percent of the country ( white people ) should be carted off to cells and get strip-searched and cavity searched for no probable cause whatsoever just because of his act of terrorism . <p> Oh , and all school kids , too , because we should prevent another Columbine. <h> jerry <p> Racial profiling , boohoo . Stop the all too apparent attempt to cash in on this situation through the sympathy of the internet , although you certainly have learned to be an American , you waste of oxygen Arab . <p> Oh , please . If I hear one more Arab-American moan about being racially profiled I will be sick . You all deserve to be " profiled ' just as any other American would . If there was suspicious behavior , and you happened to be mistaken for a terrorist , you should thank your lucky stars that you live in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Of course fears would be heightened on September 11 . Get back to being a mother and quit wasting time blogging ! <p> Americans lost their innocence because of people of your descent and their radical views . If you dislike being monitered a little more closely , please do return to your native land and do us all a favor . <h> Jen D <p> Thers -- just in case you missed it , Shosi is of Arab/American descent . Her mother is an American , her father was Saudi . This IS her native land ! Having known her for the majority of our lives , I can attest that she grew up in Southern California and lived in a very normal , middle-class neighborhood , right down the street from my family . As for your assertion that she " get back to being a mother and quit wasting time blogging , " why do n't you follow your own advice and get back to doing whatever it is you should be spending your time on , rather than spouting the vitriolic B.S. you 've so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Thers , What is wrong with you ? Do you listen to yourself ? You must be one of those ' christians ' who claims to be compassionate and loving but actually promotes hatred . This country has become disgusting , and I am embarrassed and ashamed to be considered " American " based on today 's definition and based on having countrymen like you . What have we degraded into ? A bunch of paranoid idiots turning on eachother , and having no compassion at all . I am truly ashamed to call myself an American if it means being like you . <h> Allison <h> Kimship <p> Considering her native land is the United States of America , why do n't you keep your bigotry and racism to yourself so the rest of us Americans can stop feeling ashamed of our country and some of its citizens . <h> Dawn <h> B.R. <p> Thousands and thousands of people of all colors and races are searched at airports everyday since 9/11 . Why must we bend over backwards for the people who actually fit the terrorist profile . If @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ! ! <h> Allison <p> Where do you go from here ? Do you develope new and even more expensive technology to weed out the paranoid flyers , passengers and crew ? I 'm a customer service person at an airport . I 've seen incredibly suspicious activity that was to my knowledge never taken seriously , although I hoped some system was in place between me and the plane to monitor these situations . A redneck with a race card that 's scarey. <h> rRON <p> This is too much to tolerate.Shoshana you have immense tolerance . People who have taken you for questioning needs to answer . We understand that the security is very vital . But acting without any clue is idiotic . People responsible should be taken to the courts . <h> Valerie <p> I am of Italian decent . I have black hair and olive skin . Right after 9/11 , I was always pulled aside and my carry on luggage always checked . I will say that I was not treated with disrespect . The security people actually seemed a little embarrassed . I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for me being pulled out of line and checked . Funny , it only happened when I was traveling alone . If my husband was flying with me , I was not taken out of line . I had mixed emotions about this at the time , but I came to the conclusion that until people could move away from the fear of those aweful actions that day , I would just have to live with it . However , if what happened to this poor woman had happened to me , I know that I would have had the same feelings and anger that she had . One thing we must remember , for several days before the 10th anniversary , all we kept seeing and hearing was that there was credible terrorist threats that were received . So , given that , I guess I can understand the extra precautions . In 2001 terrorist intelligence was ignored . The administration had been told that Bin Laden had made his intentions known and still the intelligence was ignored . So , I do understand that authorities had to take @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Unfortunately , this is the society we live in . Shoshana , I am sorry for the troubles you endured on your flight . But this is what needs to be done to protect the people of the USA . You feel that you are profiled , but is that not what Israel does ? It is what needs to be done to protect the citizens of this country . Please correct me if I 'm wrong , but we were attacked on 9/11 by Muslims of Arabic descent . People who probably looked like you . If you have done nothing wrong , and have nothing to hide , what is the problem with being scutinized a little more than anyone else . The truth will prevail , and a little inconvience for National Security should not be as big a deal as you are making it out to be . <h> USA forever <p> Bravo to the people who suspected you and to the police and FBI and HLS . Was it profiling ? Perhaps but how many non arabs are trying to destroy America ? Are you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ how many " sleepers " there may be in America right now . Did the crew and passengers on the plane act out of fear ? No , they are just careful and doing what is required of them during a time of war , remember everyone on that plane was also inconvenienced , a small price to pay considering if the threat turned out to be real . Is everything ok now , 10 years after 9/11/01 ? 1993 first attack on the WTC , 8 years later the towers fall . WAKE UP YOU FOOLS ! ! ! FIGHT BACK ! SEE SOMETHING SAY SOMETHING ! Back in 2001 when we were asked to say something if we see or even suspect something they did n't mean " just for the time being " they ment for how ever long it takes ! As far as Im concerned I will never trust an arab ever again , no matter if he/she is an American citizen or not , no matter if they are terrorists or not , how are we suppose to know if they are or are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ best solution is suspect them all . In fact lets send em all back <h> ghf <h> ender <p> Please imagine you are a pilgrim in 1600 ? s and the native americans persecuted you similarly because a few members of your group committed a terrorist act . Do not pass judgements so easily . I come from a nation that has been a target of Islamic terror since 1980 ? s and understand where your anger comes from but to profile somebody based on the color of their skin is a throwback to the pre-civil disobidience era . Do you want that ? There are no easy answers to the question of how america is going to deal with terrorism but to say that you want throw out a part of the population because of the color of their skin is ridiculous and borders on treason . Would you say the same for all white people after what timothy mcveigh did or all the black people for because of the underwear bomber from nigeria ? Before you react please sit back and imagine yourself in Ms Hebshi 's position @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Alan ? It looks like you are accusing Ms. Shebshi of making this up ? This just happened to her this past Sunday . Not 10 years ago . So , I 'm not sure what you mena when you say that " Twitter was n't around until 7 years later , so forgive my skepticism . " ... What are you not getting about this , Alan Frisch ? <h> Marissa <h> Jess <p> I 've been in the US for 4 years , coming from Western Europe . People think I was here all my life , or at least much , much longer than that -- except for that " something " they ca n't quite put their finger on . <p> I am truly , honestly , suffering from positive discrimination . People make it so obvious to me I 'm the kind of immigrant they want in this country . I am first in line to get a job , be considered for friends , etc . <p> I married a Hispanic man 's daughter , and it was an honor . <p> Blacks do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 'm not offspring of slave abusers , and where I come from North-Africans are unpopular immigrants but blacks are pretty cool -- so they sense no hostility . <p> Arabs like me because I am an immigrant in America along with them and understand their culture a million times better than natives . <p> When I tell white Americans that I 'm European , their eyes go open and something like a silent AHHH comes out . Then travel stories ensue and how much they envy me growing up in those places and how much they admire me speaking several languages . And they almost never forget to mention that they traced their ancestry down to European immigrants . <p> So if I am recipient of so much " opinion " because I 'm white , just imagine what blacks , hispanics and arabs go through . But since bias is part of human nature , let 's just give everyone that nice positive bias that I 'm enjoying in this country . <h> Brenda <p> I am sorry she had to go through this but we as a country @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ passengers comfy , that leaves an open door for terrorists to repeat their attacks . We already have a 9/11 to prove they will indeed attack . We want to avoid a 9/11 part 2 , while also avoiding a 9/12 , or a 10/2 , or a 11/25 . I have not flown after 9/11/2001 . My skin is olive complected due to my Italian background . While being checked with the rest of the passengers and then double checked because of how I look might be uncomfortable , it makes me feel secure knowing that the checking is going on . <p> Marvin Bryer , in Los Angeles County we have installed a strange version of Homeland Security . But the people in charge , including the Glendale Cops who were previously under former Police Chief Randy Adams , who helped bankrupt the City of Bell , and has not been arrested , are the real terrorists . I just got as parking ticket that was put in my mailbox without a postage stamp , in violation of the United States Postal service laws , and of course @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ try to stay off planes but cars in Glendale are also not safe . <h> Frank <h> Wim Bradford <p> I agree strongly with this comment ... and i would only add that America is no longer the hopes and dreams we had for her . There 's an insanity run rampant .. though all layers of our society and our leaders ... and I believe its only going to get worse . <h> mike b <p> We know this is going on all the time . Thank you for being bold enough to relate your experience to the nation . Ironically now we use repressive tactics just like the groups/nations we have been so critical of . <h> J <p> So .... lets say something had happened . Months from now people would be commenting on the ' lack of response ' to the obvious signs of an attack ... the same way they did regarding Pearl Harbor and 9/11 . I 'm willing to sacrifice the small discomfort of yourself ( and myself ) for the health and safety of all . I think we owe that for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ someone to so graphically describe such a traumatic .... strike that ..... dramatic experience .... I find that sad a problem in itself . If you do n't like the manner in which this land protects its citizens .... then LEAVE . <h> Sarah S <p> Oh good , let 's have an argument about which of us Americans should leave . I vote for the ones who consider violation of Constitutional rights a ' small discomfort ' that we should all be willing to ' put up with ' for the ' greater good ' . I come from a line of people who were defending the rights of ALL Americans of whatever color or religion long before there WAS an America . So if you think you 're going to put ME out of my country- well , you can think again , Buster . Bring it on . We beat you on slavery , we beat you on internment of Japanese-Americans , we beat you on Segregation , and we 'll beat you again . It may take a generation- or two- or longer yet , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ no REAL American will ever sacrifice the smallest part of our own or another 's freedom out of fear . Neither will we dishonor our dead by using them as a cover for cowardice and prejudice . <h> Peter <p> I believe this is completely necessary . I consider myself American though I was not born in the U.S. I am 22 years old and have lived here since I was 2 . I love the American culture , country music , and I served in the military . I am Cuban and have a dark complexion which is comparable to the Mexican appearance . Being stationed in California during a time that those of dark complexion were seized and asked for documentation or faced immediate deportation . I was driving my Jeep Wrangler with my top down , blaring country music . I had a military hair cut and Marine Corps bumper sticker . I was pulled over , searched , my Jeep was searched , and I was asked to show my papers . I was prepared because I knew what was going on . I had my @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all driving paperwork of course . I realized that the officer was acting on orders as he had to face his on board camera as he reviewed my paperwork . I was not upset . I knew what I had coming for being a certain color . I was as cooperative and respectful as possible . Though I risked my life during 2 deployments in 2 countries , I was understanding . As should any targeted race be understanding . There is no way that you should not understand why you were seized and searched on a plane on 9/11 . I believe that there was nothing unjust about your experience . I am not brainwashed . As a minority and part of an interracial marriage , I am familiar with being singled out . <p> Hi Beth , thanks for your kindness and support . Feel free to share this posting . I am a firm believer that personal accounts like this will show how little progress we have made and how far we need to go . <h> Lane L. Yarbrough <h> Junaid <p> To the person that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ standing up is important for yourself , there are other implications of standing up for yourself in those moments . As i am muslim and indian i tend to get harassed from time to time and generally do stand up for myself , but the consequences of that are that if the story of me ever being harassed goes public , many in the media would spin it as " oh look at the muslim who would not comply with the police , they do nt care about america , if they did they would have complied . " <p> There are many ways of handling her situation , for her handling it in the manner she did was correct for her . Lets not judge the victim for their actions but rather those who can not see past a persons color . <p> Absolutely Lanie , you WIN ! You win a BIG HUG , wrap your arms around yourself , close your eyes and imagine it 's me , then squeeze real tight ! There is that better ? Your post put a smile on my face , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ D <h> Heywood Jablome <p> I was on this plane you antagonized the flight crew and security YOU did this on purpose as a publicity stunt ... Yeah I saw right through you ... from the TSA lines ... So fucking knock off the pseudo-martyrdom ... Cant wait til the videos are reviewed and they haul your useless birkenstock wearing tree-hugging , GED toting useless ass to Federal Prison ... I hope you like Melissa Etheridge and Queen Latifah because you will be spending the next few years getting acquainted . Now shut this pointless nonsense blog down and turn yourself in ... You 're flat out busted and everyone already knows it <h> Dvorah Waldman <p> Unbelievable . My friend shared this link on his facebook page and I 'm so sorry to hear of your story . It sounds like you were very brave and kept calm throughout . My boyfriend is half-Indian and I 'd always pooh-poohed his concerns with being racially profiled while traveling -- but no more . <p> In this country of fear and retaliation , its unfortunate that you had to face the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be treated that way no one does . But fear and prejudice walk hand and hand today in our society , weather its on a plane or facing you on the streets of any town America . Remember God loves you and will protect you , regardless of what man tries to do to humiliate you . <h> flutter <p> This story is enraging . We 're supposed to feel protected by such overbearing , authoritarian abuse of power ? I sure do n't . The average American is more at risk of enduring the abuse of our homeland " security " agents than they are of suffering any harm at the hands of terrorists . We 're fighting terrorism with terrorism . The terrorists have won . <p> Whoa . I 'm SO sorry that happened to you . At the same time , I am so impressed with the way you conducted yourself through that ordeal AND with the thoughtful , even-tempered way you composed this post ... I do n't know that I could have relayed something like this without loads of profanity and exclamation points @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <h> Kathy S. <p> Wow . I am so sorry that this happened to you ! Thank you for sharing this with all of us . It brought me to tears reading it . My father ( a mexican-american ) has the same name as someone on the no fly list so he gets harassed every time he flies . He is a retired peace officer so though it annoys him he does n't think much of it . I guess I have always taken the stance of , it 's to protect our country so it must be ok . I am sick to my stomach at the thought of my stupidity and lack of compassion . Although I have n't seen you since high school , reading your wonderfully written words immediately brought your young smiling face to my mind ! I will be sharing your story with everyone I know . As you said , we have to stop living our lives in fear of what " might " happen and move forward to the wonderful possibilities that could be if people stopped getting sucked into the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it 's cover at one time or another unfairly but it is beyond out of hand . I do n't know how you refrained from smacking or at least returning some snide comment to the officers rude comment about being descended from desert people so you would n't mind that he had no air conditioning . You were much braver , calmer and tactful than I think I could ever have been ! <h> Marsha Litwiller <p> My God ! Ca n't imagine what you went through . To be put in handcuffs , jailed and strip searched . Please know that my thoughts and prayers are with you and your damily . You are a strong woman and I am proud to know that you and my daughter Amy are friends . Marsha <p> I am so ashamed of our nation right now that this sort of thing happens to innocent civilians . Thank you for sharing this . Where is the credibility behind the suspicious other passengers felt , other than skin-tone ? It 's ridiculous . I am very sorry that this happened to you . I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ being very upset the entire time . You handled yourself much better than I would ever hope to in a situation like that . I am glad that you are home with your family and friends . I also hope the men that shared this horrible experience with you are doing well ( as they can be given this horrible event . ) I found a link to your story on one of my friend 's facebook pages and I have shared it as well . I thought our country stood for something better than this sort of thing ... <h> thankful <p> I 'm sorry I have to leave this site I ca n't believe many of you people dissing the land of the free if you are so unhappy then maybe you should find another place to live yourselves it was terrible what happened but I can understand why , we want to make all Americans safe not just some <p> wow ! a spate of " if you do n't like America , leave " comments , and now let 's be thankful Thankful has made his @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of liberties , regardless of the ancestry of those whose liberty has been restricted . This case is made all the worse due to accusers not accountable and the guilty until proven innocent aspect . If you know your History , sounds rather like the Inquisition , which was also a case of " sovereignity " . <p> I want America to be safe . I love the fact that I am able to make comments like this because I live in a nation where I have the freedom to speak my mind . I am against unreasonable search and seizures and so is our Constitution ( the Fourth Amendment . ) <p> I ca n't understand why any citizen would be stripped , humiliated and treated like an animal . I 'm sorry that you ( who did not leave a real name ) seem to think that this sort of behavior against a citizen is o.k. to " make all Americans safe not just some . " <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> Yeah , that 's the way for change , just runaway . How about stand up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is what this land is about . People are complaining about our rights being compromised . So if you do n't like our rights , you are welcome to leave . <h> Concerned US Citizen <h> Torus <p> The United States is not perfect . And , in order to make it perfect , we have to fight policies we do n't agree with and stand up for what we believe in . That is one of our rights in this country , and a right to revolution is one of the things this country is based on . <p> We do this because we love our country . Blind support is not a good way to show one 's love for anything . <h> Jason Plemons <h> teresa <p> I also am so sorry . I know that does not help .... but I look at all of my many shapes and colors of kids at school ( a high school you I understand you know well ) and pray that they never have to suffer through this . It makes me angry .... but I too hope to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . <h> Bill <p> I saw this posted on Google+ . I 'm so sorry you experienced this . I have some Arabic friends who 've also been hassled because of 911 . It 's a sad , sad day when people have to worry about being treated this way because of the way they look . <p> I 'm so sorry that this happened . Celeste shared your post on FB and I 'm passing it on . I was thinking yesterday that the Arab-Americans , Sikhs , Muslims , and anyone else unlucky enough to get caught in the fallout do n't have anyone commemorating what THEY went through after 9/11 . And that 's not a story we 'll hear on the news anytime soon . <p> I could n't have said it better myself . I wrote about the exact same thing yesterday -- why is no one talking about the freedoms lost for those groups as a result of " defending America 's freedom " ? <p> I 'm sickened that this is happening to so many around the country , and so sorry that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sharing your story . I agree with you that personal accounts will hopefully show how little progress we have made . <h> pete.d <p> There are other things we can do , including pressuring our elected representatives to represent us instead of the TSA jobs program . But economic power is in the hands of the airlines , and only because travelers give it to them . <p> Take that economic power away , and the airlines will be the first to start lobbying for sanity to be restored to our transportation system . <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> The Transportation Security Administration ( TSA ) is an agency of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security that exercises authority over the safety and security of the traveling public in the United States <h> nic . <p> Oh yes , very quickly and competently . You know why ? Because most Arabs ( those living in the West Bank and Gaza ) are not allowed to fly to airports in Israel . They come in via Amman through the land border , where the process may take many hours ( it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) . Very quickly indeed . If you would like more racial profiling , though , you should definitely follow the Israeli example . <h> Calin Brabandt <p> &gt; The Nuremberg trials set the precedent that " I was only following orders " is no defense . <p> Sadly , this moral concept did n't stick after Nuremberg and it continues to be eroded every day . It no longer exists in the " law industry , " despite the best efforts of many orgainizations , including " Oath Takers . " <p> Cops and soldiers are robots . They believe their actions and the consequences of their actions are never their own moral responsibilities . <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> Wow -- I wish I could say I 'm shocked at this , but I feel like shock would be naive . Still , it absolutely galls me to no end to think of innocent citizens being treated like criminals , like dirt , based on nothing other than the suspicions of others ... suspicions which are based in their own prejudices . <p> I am so sorry you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ despicable experience , and grateful to you for sharing it . I think it is extremely important that people see the awful results of bigoted hyper-vigilance , of marginalizing people as bogeymen based on whispers and lies , of pat refusal to believe certain people are good people . It can only lead to a bad place , no matter what they try to claim about " security " and " freedom " . <h> Allison <h> M <p> That 's what I felt too , after reading the media report . It 's one of those typical reports that leave you with the vague notion that the govt was doing its job and that the people detained probably did something to warrant the detention . That 's terrible that for 10 years we 've been hearing reports like this and the media has actually not been covering the detainees point of view . The media , early on , decided to side with a falsely-defined patriotism instead of journalistic integrity . <h> BayAreaBiker <p> One other thing -- I am never flying Frontier , EVER . Whatever ghosts this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of " **39;5953;TOOLONG ... the flight attendant could have used her/his commmon sense to first enquire and then reported the men . Had they been real terrorists , they could have blown the plane right after the F-16 showed up . <h> JayMonster <p> Just out of curiosity , where exactly are the " lies " that you speak of ? Thee people detained on " suspicion " ( based on the article , it seems the suspicious person was a Frontier Airlines Flight Attendant ) , and nothing suspicious was found , this after questioning , they were released . <p> Yes , it sounds far more routine in the press , but , I fail to see where the comment that the press is lying comes from . <h> s. <h> guest <p> actually , the " mainstream " media reported this exactly the same way as she said -- the three people were arrested because someone overacted about 2 brown men maybe spending " too much " time in the bathroom . Other than not knowing the personal details she reported here , what did the " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ really is n't any different at all . It just tells the incident from a perspective of somebody who was n't personally involved . I do n't think any facts in that article differ from what this woman has said -- she just has more facts from what happened to her personally . <h> St. Exuperantius <p> There 's a significance difference between writing that someone had been released after questioning and writing that someone had been handcuffed , locked in a cell , strip searched , interrogated , and then released . " Questioning " sounds benign and less invasive than what happened . <p> I 'm sorry that you had this experience , but happy that you conducted yourself so much better than I probably would have . My only question : How are the " authorities " ( I sense a hint of derision when you used that word ) to know the suspicions of the person who reported what they believed they saw were based on racism or stereotype ? <p> Should they ask you : " Are you a terrorist " and based merely on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your way ? Your post is n't specific , but it does n't appear your search was a cavity search ( which makes it no less embarrassing to you as an individual ) . But , again , how are the authorities to know you 're not concealing weapons or materials without a search ? <p> The frustrating thing about your entire situation was that you were innocent and got caught up in either a report by an outright racist or more likely , an overly-frightened citizen who probably should do a better job of looking for acts rather than skin color . But , if I am on a plane and *I* see something I really believe is suspicious , am I to only report white men who are suspicious ? If I see what I THINK is suspicious activity by a person of Middle-Eastern or Southwestern Asian descent , should I dismiss it , assume I 'm just profiling the person ? <p> Sure , your reasonable perception of the situation is that you were profiled and the big , bad authorities were completely wrong -- because you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ without investigation ? <p> The point -- I do n't think I understand how the problem you see can be " solved " without people simply not reporting anything . I guess I 'm wondering : Is reporting suspicious activity ok as long the person turns out to be a terrorist ? But profiling if they are not ? I understand , as a white male , I have the benefit of privilege and the consequences of profiling and racism are hard for me to " feel " . But , I 'd simply ask you this : Would n't any other innocent person have the right to feel what you felt on a basic level -- you were inconvenienced , made to feel humiliated , anxious about what was going on ... but aside from the " why was I picked " , any innocent person of any race or ethnicity would feel that way , no ? <h> Chris <p> Thank you so much for you comment . I totally agree . Where is the middle ground ? How can we be safe and still respectful ? I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ been detained and humiliated but had a chance to go home and tell their families about it . I totally agree that this was awful for Shoshana . It breaks my heart , but what is the solution ? <p> Actually , the victims of 9/11 would probably have settled for locks on the cockpit door , not to mention SOMEONE paying attention to the report that said " Bin Laden determined to strike inside U.S. " with a response more serious than a month-long vacation . <h> ADP <p> Actually , at Ben Gurion they 've found just asking " Are you a terrorist ? " to be very effective at screening . I do n't think she 's saying people should n't report anything . But as long as we remain ignorant of what actually constitutes a *real* threat , we 're going to be wasting a lot of time and money on fears borne of racism . <h> Crafty Trilobite <p> How about we worry less about the very remote possibility of dying by terrorist and more about the human rights of our fellow citizens ? This @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ really such a nation of cowards that we willingly go along with it in exchange for a modicum of ( false ) security ? <h> Johnny <h> Bhazulle <p> Amen Crafty . I would rather take my chances with the " Terrorists " and possibly , remotely run the risk of losing my life , ( As opposed to the 1-30 chance everytime I merge into traffic ) then the very real , very direct threat of living under a totalitarian government hell bent on " Protecting " me to , well , death . I 'll take my chances with my dark skinned Middle eastern neighbor . He 's a nice guy , known him since the 5th grade . I could probably take him in a fight . Verymuch doubt I could take the body armor clad jackboot kicking in my door in the middle of the night because someone may or may not have heard me swear to loud at the television set . <h> Laurna Macnear <p> I 'm guessing that she was thoroughly searched by TSA before boarding the plane .... is n't that why @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ let me know your next flight and we can call ahead and arrange for you to be pulled off the plane in handcuffs , strip-searched in an open cell , not told what is going on , not allowed to contact your family or an attorney and we 'll see how safe you feel ! <p> Corey , please re read the post . The gentlemen seated next to her came under suspicion because someone thought they took a long time in the bathroom ( turns out one of ' em was airsick ) , and she was yanked out simply for sitting next to them . Ask yourself , if she was not brown , would she have been detained ? That 's the point . Its easy to take the privelage of being presumed innocent when you 've never experienced what its like to be presumed guilty . <h> Wendy <p> The average , random citizen is no more well equipped to determine if a behavior is " suspicious " than they are to teach a class of kindergarteners or diagnose a heart condition . These mistakes in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ something " logic until there is a well-disseminated and standardized set of activities defined as suspicious . This may be an unreasonable goal but it just illustrates the flaw made when " authorities " call for and give credence to these reports of suspicion . You are being ridiculous and flippant when you comment about only reporting white males making suspicious behavior . Racial profiling is unamerican and unethical , period . If there were statistics to support the " see something say something " policy the media would be parading them out every time a situation like this occurs . It is my " suspicion " that the vast majority of tips from folks who think they 've observed suspicious behavior do n't ever lead to the arrest of any true terrorist . <h> Abhi <p> Dear genius , how many American citizens were in on the 911 plot ? They should have simply taken her to some room ( as opposed to a cell ) , asked her for her citizenship details , and once they found out that she was a citizen , they should have let @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ question much . And the way they treated her should have been in proportion of the evidence that the other person/coward gave . " I think I saw a knife in her handbag " gets you stripsearched . " Was doing stuff that most people do , except that she looks arab/asian " should just trigger a mere check of citizenship . Perhaps you should let us know how many American citizens carried out 911 attack . But apparently you belong to the group of brain-dead people who would strip-search and suspect the pilot too , at boarding time ( clue : The pilot does n't needs guns or weapons to crash the plane . I had to point it out since you are incapable of thinking this by yourself apparently ) <h> Just a thought <p> @Abhi , Abuse of another poster in this forum is most unfortunate . Your opinions on the issue add to the discussion , abusive language and name calling do not . Respect for others is part of the issue here . <p> No Americans were part of the 9/11 plot . But it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ; also consider Eric Robert Rudolph ( Olympic Park bombings ) ; Nidal Malik Hasan ( the American-born , US Army-serving psychiatrist who massacred troops at Fort Hood ) ; the Unabomber whose last name I can never spell , etc . <p> Assuming that American citizenship precludes terrorist activity is just as naive , short-sighted , and troublesome as assuming that brown skin predicts it . <h> In Respect <p> Thank you ! Add to the list Richard Reid , the AMERICAN shoe bomber or the AMERICAN born convert to Islam , Anwar al-Awlaki who routinely calls for death to Americans and encourages attacks from " within " . Sorry , citizenship is no longer cause to assume someone " ca n't possibly be a terrorist " . <h> M <p> You said : " The frustrating thing about your entire situation was that you were innocent and got caught up in either a report by an outright racist or more likely , an overly-frightened citizen who probably should do a better job of looking for acts rather than skin color . " <p> I think your use of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a racist is . If someone , who witnesses no suspicious acts , and yet is frightened because of nothing more than a person 's skin color , as you described in the second phrase , then they are a racist , so your options appear to be racist or ... racist . <h> M <p> The common man/woman is not an expert in terrorism and the govt should stop empowering them to think that they are . We are not the first country to be hit by terrorism and there 's a lot to be learned from other countries that have many more years of experience than we do . We also need to study world history and understand things like the Gestapo . If you do n't understand how problems can be solved without people not reporting anything , that 's ok because you 're not an expert . But at least understand the huge danger in actually having people report things and what that can lead to . <p> Corey -- that one is actually kind of easy . We have long held that the accused in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be tried by a jury of his peers . Not reported by ' someone ' and held &; searched on account of " It 's 9/11 and people are seeing ghosts . They are seeing things that are n't there . " <p> The 4th Amendment to the U.S. and particularly describing the place to be searched , and the persons or things to be seized . " <p> And yeah , she kinda did make it clear that it was a cavity search " Because I am so violent . And pulling me off an airplane , handcuffing me and patting me down against a squad car did n't offer enough protection . They also needed to make sure all my orifices were free and clear . " You ca n't exactly check " orifices " without a cavity search . <p> No one swore out an Oath , nor was there a Warrant . If you wanted to report a suspicious person outside your house ? You 'd have to make a statement to the police and you 'd have to be willing to stand up to that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ time for the SCOTUS to get around to actually admitting it , but if you think a warrantless strip search , where the person being detained is denied the right to legal counsel , is denied the right to know what the charges are or the grounds for this kind of search is n't " unreasonable " then I would submit humbly that you 've never found yourself in such a position . What if one of the people sitting in that row had been a 12 year old ? Not so reasonable all of the sudden . <p> If there is a person acting suspiciously near the playground of a school ? You still have to be willing to make a statement to the police . If you choose to do it as an ' anonymous tip ' somehow -- the police have to then find some justification ( legal justification ) to get a warrant to search that person 's house -- let alone his/her body cavities . The fact that the 3 people in that row were treated differently than the rest of the passengers and that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ telling me it was for my own protection as they had brought in the rest of the passengers for questioning " tells you that it was based on fear . If she was n't guilty of anything ? Why not just say loudly as you return her to the same area as the rest of the passengers " We 're sorry ma'am . We had to follow procedure . Clearly this was in error , you are free to go . " ? <p> From what is written here , it 's clear that the FBI agents had time to have done a background check . It 's also clear that the police were in no imminent danger of a woman handcuffed with her hands behind her back in a small locked cell somehow magically exploding some device contained inside her that she had waited to set off until the plane had landed , sat on the tarmac for 30 minutes , and been stormed by security . <p> In theory , terrorists with devices like that would actually *use* it on the plane , or at least , long @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to waiting until finding themselves handcuffed , alone , and helpless in a cell . ( p.s. ultrasound or xray is far more efficient than a cavity search and considerably less invasive . ) <p> The point is n't " well how can we be sure to get the bad guys if we do n't do this ? " but instead " is this approach actually netting any ' bad guys ' ? If not , why are we stripping random Americans of their civil liberties and legal rights because someone on a plane has an over-active imagination ? " <p> Really , the security theater has got to stop now . We 've got to grow up and use techniques proven by decades of use in places like Israel . Because there was a point in time not so long ago , that the thought of *anyone* treated that way by a government was obscene . It was the bogieman presented to young , naive travelers headed overseas " do n't do anything wrong -- you might get thrown in a Turkish prison and never be seen again ! @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ real . But now , just as equally , someone in Turkey could say the same to his children as they head toward the U.S. now . <p> @Lucretia , THANK YOU for this post ! You are the first person to have pointed out what I thought when I first read the news article ( before reading this blog post ) ... If Shoshana or the other two passengers had meant any harm they would have done it BEFORE they ever landed ! Detaining them and " strip searching " them after they landed is like patching a whole in a boat after it has sunk to the bottom of the ocean . Too little , too late . <p> I am not completely opposed to SOME racial profiling -- but it should have been done before they ever got on the plane . What happened here is outrageous . Beyond absurd . And the person(s) who reported the " suspicious behavior " aught to be tarred and feathered ! <p> Shoshana 's " racial prejudices " that resulted while she was being detained were totally understandable . She @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ first place . She had done nothing more suspicious than fly on 9/11 . The whole " standard procedure " stuff is bull crap and someone ( maybe several someones ) really screwed up in their jobs . She and the other two men who were detained deserve a formal apology from the President of the US , the airline they were flying , and the FBI for wrongful detainment and invasion of privacy . Their rights were most definitely violated ! <p> My husband is in the Army , currently deployed -- he found this article and told me about as HE is outraged and thinks someone really screwed up . This is n't the kind of " Freedom " he is fighting for he told me and he said that " they " should be really glad she is being so understanding about all of this ! <h> Jess <p> Shoshana , I 'm going to be blunt and honest about what I experience where I live . It will probably hurt you , and I ask your forgiveness . I hope it will also help us start @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what the complaint of suspiscion said , per Scott Wintner , a Detroit Metropolitan Airport spokesman , as reported in the NYT : <p> " -- multiple passengers holed up in the bathroom -- led to F-16s shadowing Frontier Airlines Flight 623 from Denver as it neared Detroit . " <p> Given the existence of the Mile High Club , there was a time when " multiple passengers holed up in the bathroom " would 've resulted in nothing more than giggles and smirks . If Homeland Security ( could we have named it anything more Nazi-evocative ? ) believes people in an airplane bathroom together usually indicates a terrorist plot , they should simply issue a rule against it similar to those against smoking . They make the flight attendants threaten us with Federal punishment during the pre-flight talk if we do n't comply with that ! <p> The point is , Shoshana never was in the bathroom with her seatmates , nor they in the bathroom together as far as she knows . Some simple , discreet questioning of the passengers seated near the bathrooms by the flight @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and none of this need have happened . " Has there been more than one person in the bathroom at the same time ? " Duh . <p> I have a feeling the profiling started during seat assignment , actually , knowing several airline employees . There 's a sense of entitlement to consider the " sensitivities " you talk about , Corey , and I suspect the three were seated together because they had " funny names " . That way , " real Americans " would n't have to sit next to someone who might make them " uncomfortable " . Just lump all of " them " together where we can watch ' em . <p> What if we turned our fear on its head and behaved as if we had no fear ? That would mean approaching someone we felt suspiscious about and engaging them in a friendly way . What if the accuser had simply looked Shoshana and her seatmates in the eye , smiled , and asked , " How 's it going ? " There 's an awful lot to learn from body @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ someone sweating all out of proportion to the temperature , I 'm gon na ask if they feel alright . I 'm gon na offer to get them a cool wet paper towel from the bathroom , or a dose of aspirin . How they react to kindness will be most revealing , and then I can decide whether to get help from the authorities . <p> Speaking of the authorities , how does it make anyone safer to treat a suspect roughly unless they are physically resisting ? Too many cop shows where they take a person down for asking questions when they 've been told to shut up -- it 's outrageous ! <p> And since when do we think it 's OK to handcuff people without arresting them , Mirandizing them , and stating what they 're charged with ? Since September 11 , that 's when . <p> The Constitution does n't mention " detainees " . You 're either under reasonable suspiscion ( probable cause ) or you 're not . This dangerous gray area is an invention that 's being used by police now @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to talk " . " If you have n't done anything wrong , you have nothing to fear . " That 's complete BS , and every citizen should retain a healthy level of disdain for the authorities . <p> Look , if our main concern is whether we might die in a terrorist act , we will lose this country . We must each be willing to die for our freedom or it will be taken from us . A strip search for the protection of the authorities ? I thought they were all heroes , which implies bravery and the willingness to lay down their lives for Constitutional principles . <p> No , the strip search is an enhanced interrogation technique meant to make the detainee feel helpless and break down resistance . If nothing else , everyone reading Shoshana 's story should contact all their elected representatives and insist that it can not take place until a suspect is duly arrested under probable cause and is entering the jail . <p> http : //www.congress.org/ lets you find all your state and national representatives by just entering your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Bookmark it . You 're gon na need it . <h> Kit Walker <h> Mike <p> The authorities could have asked questions or had a discussion with the three people instead of cuffing them , marching them off the plane , jailing them , strip searching them , and generally humiliating and terrifying them . There was no indication of any violence , imminent threat , or crime . So why these measures ? <p> That does n't solve the problem of nervous nellies reporting routine behavior as suspicious , but it certainly mutes the negative impacts . Police used to be skilled in de-escalating situations ; now they seem only to escalate them . <p> If the police had a five minute chat with the three people , the crew , and a few other passengers , we would n't even be reading about this terrible incident . <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> I 'm friends with a policeman and I hate to say it , but they are all taught to be distrusting of everyone and are completely paranoid . And it 's not a stereotype ; @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's legal for them to lie to you in questioning . <h> Angi <p> Well it would help if the proper authorities followed the dictate of our rule of law -- innocent until proved guilty . This woman , and the two men , could have been taken off the plane and questioned respectfully . To be taken off , handcuffed , strip searched and put in containment based on a civilian witness 's opinion is unreasonable and against everything we purport to stand for . <p> Common sense seems to have gotten lost along with our ability to react appropriately to situations . <h> AFC <p> You write : " My only question : How are the " authorities " ( I sense a hint of derision when you used that word ) to know the suspicions of the person who reported what they believed they saw were based on racism or stereotype ? " <p> I 'm a little dismayed that you would ask such a question . The " authorities " should simply ask them whether there is any basis for their suspicion . If the answer @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ anyone ( whether they chalk it up to racism , or whatever else ) . If the answer is " yes , " then they should ask them what it is . If the answer to that is , " they just do n't look right to me " ... well , then what do *you* think should follow ? <p> Basically , if there is actual evidence of criminal activity backing up a " suspicion , " then it should be acted upon . If there is no evidence of criminal activity backing up a " suspicion , " then the lack of evidence should suffice to guarantee the treatment of persons as innocents . In neither case should " suspicion " itself be in any way a criterion for any kind of action by police . <h> Steve Bock <p> Every year , about 37,000 Americans die in traffic accidents . The chances of a the average American being killed by a terrorist are astronomical . We do n't strip search everyone who gets in a car and drives . <p> Your euphemisms are very telling . The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , jailed , and strip searched -- for no probable cause , without reasonable suspicion , without search warrant , due process , or cause . <p> You have the gall to euphemistically dismiss her ordeal as " made to feel humiliated , anxious about what was going on " . <h> mr <p> Ummm ..... and more than 1.2 million U.S. citizens are stopped each year for suspicion of driving under the influence and released because they 're determined safe to drive . Granted , they are n't subjected to strip searches ( at least I hope not ) -- but that 's simply because the risk associated with your average drunk driver simply pales in comparison to the risk associated with your average mass terrorist and a more extreme vetting process simply is n't prudent . These drivers are , however , questioned , tested , potentially humiliated , etc . Clearly the experience of a cavity search is undoubtedly more uncomfortable than a simple " walk the line " test , but the principle is exactly the same . Lots of perfectly safe drivers are pulled over @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It is n't fun . But that 's the deal -- at least if you want to keep drunks off the road . <p> Simple analogy . But you get the point . Now , let the name-calling begin .... <h> mr <p> Corey , despite your poor choice of baseball teams ( : ) ) , you are otherwise a sharp , acute observer . Short answer -- there is no clear-cut " middle ground . " There simply is n't a " right way " for authorities to do the jobs we all expect them to do .... they MUST do .... without frustrating , offending and sometimes even scaring some of us . The risk is simply too great to err on the side of trust and faith . Unfortunately , we can no longer afford to be naive ... a few undereducated cowards in airplanes literally ran that option into the ground ten years ago . Perhaps Shosh should aim more of her vituperation at them , since their actions were the ultimate source of her recent humiliating experience . I 'm guessing Jeremy Glick and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ questions and a strip search , but maybe that 's just me . <p> As for the aforementioned authorities violating their constitutional rights .... thankfully , most of us understand clearly that the report of suspicious behavior in this particular case , given the context and circumstances , more than warranted probable cause . I could n't give a flip about skin color , taste in music or penchant for drinking cheap beer ( quick side note : nowhere in Shosh 's account does she mention that her " accuser " is white ... would n't it be sad , and a bit ironic , to find out he/she was , let 's say , a little Vietnamese woman ? ) . No , really .... let me confirm .... I simply do not care WHO looks like WHAT and how they prefer to cut their hair . I lost my " right " to do that when I watched a few thousand unsuspecting 9-to-5ers follow their morning coffee with a refreshing jump out of a 100+ story building . I 'm sure the posters on this thread can understand @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's fortunate that you represent a vast ( if not ' silent ' ) majority of Americans who may not be entirely comfortable with the current means of protecting ourselves but understand that a trade-off is now , unfortunately , a part of our lives . <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> I guess you did n't read her blog completely and missed this or else you do n't know the definition of orifice : " Because I am so violent . And pulling me off an airplane , handcuffing me and patting me down against a squad car did n't offer enough protection . They also needed to make sure all my orifices were free and clear . " <p> All my orifices means " all . " She 's already humiliated enough , so does she have to go into detail ? Her statement is quite clear . <h> steve <h> saireygamp <p> Bullshit . The Patriot Act was passed by a Democratic congress and signed by a Republican president , then re-upped by a Republican congress and Democratic president . <p> At the end of the day , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the government . If President Obama , Eric Holder , or Janet Napolitano wanted to stop these egregious violations of the fourth amendment , they could . They 've been running DHS and TSA for three years now . It 's nonsense to blame this on Bush/Cheney . <p> The act was definitely supported by far more Rs than Ds . Yes , Obama could use executive order to modify the agencies , but Presidents rarely institute major changes in programs instituted by their predecessors without an act of Congress , and the President 's job is to enforce law created by Congress , not to modify it . Yes , he could have vetoed the reauthorization , but the veto would have been overridden , and Presidents hate it when that happens . <h> RR <p> Some folks will really do a lot of mental acrobatics to avoid opening their eyes to Obama being Bush II , no ? The fact is he has failed to lead on this , either because he agrees that Justice , Homeland Security , etc are acting appropriately in the name of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ focused on his agenda of choice : forcing Americans into a government-run healthcare scheme that many of them do n't want . But , please , the man has been President of the United States for nearly a full term now , and he started it off with Democrat majorities in both chambers ; sorry , but if you want to make this a " partisan " issue , you 'll have to work harder than the above to convince me . At what point exactly do we start holding a President accountable for what he has or has not done to advance American principles ? You know , things like LIBERTY ? The Hope and Change kool-aid has gotten rather stale . <h> Liz <p> Bullshit right back at you . Bush pushed a " if you 're not with us you 're against us " agenda and he and Cheney worked diligently to ensure that gullible Americans believed that anyone who opposed the " Patriot Act " ( most definitely named that for a reason ) was a terrorist sympathizer and America-hater . It was career suicide to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ made sure of it . They played on our irrational fears born of a horrific attack and they made the most of them , creating laws that stripped us of our Constitutional rights and subjecting innocent people to torture and imprisonment without charges . The actions of the " authorities " ( and the derisive tone is deliberate and deserved ) are the direct result of Bush and Cheney . <h> Allison <h> Bk4 <h> Jeff Guilfoyle <p> Wow . Thank you for writing this , and on behalf of your FELLOW American citizens , I am truly truly sorry that you were treated this way . Know that I , a white male , feel violated reading what happened to you . What happens to one of us , happens to all of us . A little more of my faith in this country slipped away , just as the principles and beliefs our country was founded upon have slipped away . You writing this is standing up for those principles , however , and doing so publicly would have made our Founding Fathers proud . <p> Well said @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you . It is disgusting and appalling . I am reminded of the internment camps that Americans of Japanese descent were shuffled into during WW2 . The comparison may seem a bit dramatic perhaps , but that does n't make it any less true . <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> The Transportation Security Administration ( TSA ) is an agency of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security that exercises authority over the safety and security of the traveling public in the United States. 1 The TSA was created as part of the Aviation and Transportation Security Act , sponsored by Don Young in the United States House of Representatives2 and Ernest Hollings in the Senate , 3 passed by the 107th U.S. Congress , and signed into law by President George W. Bush on November 19 , 2001 . Originally part of the United States Department of Transportation , the TSA was moved to the Department of Homeland Security on March 25 , 2003 . John S. Pistole is the fifth TSA Administrator , having replaced former head Kip Hawley. 4 http : **35;5994;TOOLONG ... <h> Jess <p> Yeah OK @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who illegally detained and violated her says " DHS " not " TSA " . The TSA people are not qualified to perform arrests without the supervision of other agencies . ( As if one could imagine anyone less qualified than those who acted in this case . ) <p> Thank you for your account . I 'm so sorry that this had to happen to you ... or to anyone . This makes me even more ashamed to be an American , disgusted and very angry . Not in my country , dammit ! I sincerely hope you and everyone else involved in the " 50 other similar incidents across the country " will file a lawsuit over this violation of your civil rights . This paranoid insanity has to stop or we might as well just tear up the constitution and forget about ever having had any freedoms . <h> phyllis <p> I am so sorry that this happened to you . I can only hope that whoever cast dispersions on you and your seatmates was subjected to the same degree of humiliation and scrutiny that you faced @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ suspicious behavior to be reported , but that any such reporting be viewed by authorities to include all persons who may vouch for an accurate account of why you were viewed in a negative light . I hope you were compensated in some way for the frightening and pointless humiliation you experienced . <h> Nancy <p> thank you for sharing your experience . I would have been losing it . I was screaming while I read this . The only way to fight this is to get these stories out there . ( heard about it from Nick Kristof 's tweet . ) <p> I 'm not at all surprised to read this story in the Amerika of post-9/11 . I 'm sorry this happened to you , but I 'm glad that you were not treated even worse -- Imagine if all the officers you dealt with were as stupid and ignorant as the one that gave you a ride to your car . <p> I 've shared this post on three social networks . You have my compassion and my empathy . Please never , ever stop writing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't experience them yourself , and encourage others to do the same . It 's only by spreading awareness can we hope to overcome the apathy that tells us we ca n't effect any change . <p> Even the first black President has wimped out at ending the Patriot Act type spying by the FBI , CIA , NSA , and so on .... as well as the unjustifiable treatment of other people whose skin is n't lily white . <h> Mister Aloha <p> Duhhh , sorry but I 'm an American not a Amerikan . I live in America not Amerika . Oh , and easy for you to talk cause by your photo , your skin is " lily white . " I feel more for the ones that lost their lives in the 9-11 tragedy then her being questioned and strip searched , she is still alive , she still has her family . Those in the Twin Towers are not here , their family misses them . And there were " The Encyclopedia of 9/11 . Total number killed in attacks ( official figure as of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lost their lives cause of 4 planes that were hi-jacked ..... by some of that were of the same color and race .... If you ARE an AMERICAN , you will understand ! GOD BLESS THE U.S.A. If you do n't like it , please leave , there are other countries that would love your citizenship . <p> You do n't know me . A friend of mine on Google+ shared the link to your story , and I was compelled to read it . I am outraged at the way you were treated . I am shocked that this can happen in this country . I am so sorry for the way you were treated , and I hope that you will be ok . My heart goes out to you . Keep telling your story . People need to hear this ! <p> I have a problem with patriotism , I find it agressive and dangerous . I have been pondering a world without it and think it would be good for all but then I 'm reminded that religion is the real problem , hopefully in 1000 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was 3000 years ago from now . <h> Toni Lupo Ruso <p> Soshana , I was shocked and saddened as I read this . We have not spoke or seen eachother since high school but I remember you as such a nice and accepting person . Not sure I could have shown the same strength in the given situation . I am proud to know you and wish to help spread the word . Your friend -- Toni <h> kerry <p> Fear is such a dangerous thing . I 'm Canadian and I do n't think we have the same culture of fear that 's been stewing in the States in this last decade , but I still see it and still sometimes have to actively say " no " to being sucked into a lifestyle of fear . I think we 're really being taught to fear what is different or unfamiliar ... and who , I guess -- religiously , ethnically , politically . Even though I know better , sometimes I have to talk myself down : " no , being afraid of people who are unknown @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I will not give in to the hype and the media and the unfairness . I will not be afraid . " <p> I hope you are able to find peace &; resolution in the wake of yesterday . I wish you blessings . <h> Kathryn Quigley <p> What happened to you is absolutely disgusting , and shows how paranoid some people really are . It shows the real problems of the paranoia people have increasing had since 9/11 , something I 've seen quite a lot of over time . <p> It seems some of those here would have been better used at the Dallas Cowboys-New York Jets game at Met Life Stadium in The Meadowlands Sunday night , where a man was able to get a stun gun past security and incite a brawl in the stands during the game . <p> Declan McCullagh shared your post over on G+ , and I am so pissed on your behalf , I can hardly see straight ! I 'm so sorry this happened to you ! My husband is of Syrian extraction and is constantly being yanked aside for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this badly mistreated . <p> On a different note , I read back an entry , and see that you are newly arrived to Toledo . As it happens , I live in Toledo , and except for a year and a half abroad , have lived here all my life . Toledo does n't seem like much to new transplants , but we actually have a lot of lovely little jewels hidden amongst the weeds here and in the surrounding areas . Pop me a note at Facebook -- I 'm logged in with it -- and I 'll be glad to give you the low down on the Glass City . <p> Friend request sent ! I do n't use the FB chat feature because every time I do , the whole world wants to talk , but I happily answer messages ! After you add me back , I 'll send you my AIM name . Only a few people know that , it 's easier to keep up with ! <p> Shoshana , in Toledo there is a woman who has been talking out about these @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the community and steer people away from blindly making stereotypes about people of Arab heritage . Her name is Fatima Al-Hayani , and you may want to look her up , I 'm sure she would love to hear your story , if she has n't already . I have n't spoken with her since I was a student of hers back in the late 90 ? s , but I do know that she is still very involved with the local Arab community . Here is a new article that she was featured in a few years back : http : **35;6031;TOOLONG ... <p> OMG ! What an experience . And I thought I had it bad when they detained me in Denver for asking for a flight attendant 's name who 'd been excessively rude so I could write a letter of complaint . You sure you do n't have a false imprisonment charge ? I 'm glad you 're OK , except for the emotional trauma ! Take good care of yourself ! <p> I 'd ask you to consider a different perspective -- that this was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ result of a *lack* of profiling . If we had real air security , instead of the theatre we engage in today , we would have professionals , trained in body language and psychology , screening people at the airport . What you experienced , which was reprehensible and inexcusable , was a result of that " report suspicious behavior " nonsense -- relying on the uninformed and untrained to report things . <h> IncensedAndPerturbed <p> Everything was on the up and up . The officers were just following procedure based on legislation that the ignorant populace allowed to be instated . We do n't need lawyers we need protests to demand change . <p> How you were treated is horrifying . I 've shared this on FB , SU and Twitter . I just hope this is one more smack to the head of the American people -- this violation of human rights and our Constitution has got to stop . <p> I saw your link posted on Missy 's Facebook page . This disgusts me , I am so sorry to hear about your ordeal . What sickens @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ brother and his new wife ( both who are white and look it ) travelled through TWO airports with a 6-inch hunting knife he had mistakenly left in his backpack . Security did not find the knife at the San Diego airport , nor at the Atlanta airport . Finally , leaving Miami for their international flight , it was discovered . Although I 'm glad they did n't get into trouble as it was an innocent mistake , I am horrified that a knife was brought on to 2 different flights ! ! They go to all this effort to harass and humiliate completely innocent people because of their race , but ca n't find a knife in the x-ray machines ? ! It 's ridiculous . <h> Azazel <p> Absolutely . Making false terrorism reports is , in fact , a crime . The fact is there was no " suspicious behavior " ; spending " too long " in a bathroom is not suspicious behavior . I would strongly suggest seeing if you can get them prosecuted for making a false report . I know there 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ never supported the Patriot Act because racist and paranoid people can do shit like this to citizens . It 's akin to The Spanish Inquisition in that a mere accusation is enough to set it in motion . I am so sorry they treated you like this and I 'm especially angry at the racist passenger(s) who instigated it . My granddaughter is half-Iraqi and my grandsons are half Mexican and I shudder to think of the bullshit they 'll encounter from people like that . Thank you for speaking out . I would encourage everyone to write to their representatives about the excesses of The Patriot Act . <p> I am so sorry -- and infuriated -- to hear of your ordeal . That 's not even an adequate word to describe it . Violation . Humiliation . Abuse . And all because of the paranoia and hysteria that has taken over this country . Every person who has ever defended the DHS , who has ever been an apologist for the TSA , who has ever uttered the monumentally stupid shibboleth , " as long as it keeps @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you . And to countless others . The 9/11 victimology of this country , fed by a complicit media , has got to stop . We are on a very dark path . <p> This is intense . I am incredibly appalled and saddened that this happened to you . I just saw this link on my feed on Twitter . Someone had retweeted it . I 'm sharing your story with my friends so that they know . I am so sorry that you had to go through this and I 'm glad you 've made it home now . No one should be treated like this . <p> I 'm equal parts amazed and horrified by this story . Thank you for writing about it . I do n't understand how anyone could call themselves an American and not be ashamed at the way we treat our own just to keep up the charade of security . <h> W Scott Lincoln <h> W Scott Lincoln <p> I take my comment back . A simple search led to many news articles exactly as you describe . It is unfortunate @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the patriotism everyone espouses , but also fear . Fear that will keep us bound and overpower our belief in the ideals supposedly so important to our country that makes the patriotism worthwhile . <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> It is being reported all over because it is an outrage . You really should hire a lawyer , especially in light of the fact that it was only the two men who were under suspicion and you got taken in the kerfuffle . If it was the flight attendant who reported it , she or he needs to lose their job for being so scared of their passengers just for going to the restroom . This person is clearly in the wrong line of work . <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> I 'm terribly sorry that you endured this . It 's unacceptable that so many people believe it 's OK to give up the rights this country was founded on to appease their irrational fears . The only thing I can offer you is my heartfelt thanks for sharing your experience in the hope that it will affect some @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Although this is horrible , think of it this way , it was n't Homeland Security that profiled , it was actually some paranoid passenger on the flight . You have to realize that people are going to be extra-extra paranoid especially on 9/11 . Though you do have my sympathies that it happened to you , it should n't have happened . <h> Liz <p> " Extra-extra paranoid " is not an excuse . That you would even say something so disgusting as " you have to realize " clearly shows that you are comfortable with that paranoia resulting in the utter shattering of the rights that " patriots " allegedly hold so dear . <p> I am so very sorry this happened to you . Racial profiling is proven not to work . The tactics that " Homeland Security " are using do not work . What is happening instead is injustice in the name of ' supposed ' security . What they need to work on is building some trust and unity with other countries instead of scaring visitors and citizens . It 's totally disgusting how @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ reported it as " suspicious " did n't think that two people from the same row go to the lavatory because they 're already up happens all the time ! ! If you have to get up to let someone out , you may as well go too so you do n't have to disturb the other passenger/s in the row again later . Fear has replaced common sense in many situations . The result is unfair treatment of innocent American citizens . <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> It sounds like one was ill and gone for awhile , so the other got up to check on him . That is what papers are reporting . She stated she took photos of the commotion outside the plane with their camera because she was at a better angle , so it sounds like she had a window seat and the two Indian gentlemen were seated beside each other . <h> Kent <p> Is there not some kind of legal recourse to this ? If the person did n't report anything actually specifically suspicious , just that they were " suspicious " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ false arrest . <p> Not really . If you had to be ' accurate ' in every suspicion you had , that would have an extremely chilling effect on both professional law enforcement and citizen vigilance against ( real ) criminal activity . Probable cause is just that -- not nearly the same standard as ' beyond a reasonable doubt ' , which is what is required for a conviction . <p> The TSA officials got a ' bad ' tip based on some racism and a lot of fear -- but if they had n't followed up and it HAD been something , we 'd be screaming just as loud . <h> AFC <p> There was no probable cause here , nor did the government claim to have probable cause . Instead , the government claimed that its searches were on the basis of protection . SCOTUS has ruled that police officers can search you WITHOUT probable cause , in order to ensure you do n't have weapons with which to attack them . <p> You are certainly totally incorrect , from a legal perspective , to say that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cause . " <p> You write : " The TSA officials got a ' bad ' tip based on some racism and a lot of fear -- but if they had n't followed up and it HAD been something , we 'd be screaming just as loud . " <p> In my eyes , the fact that the plane landed safely at its destination without being hijacked , proves it was n't hijacked . <p> If you had to be ' accurate ' in every suspicion you had , that would have an extremely chilling effect on both professional law enforcement and citizen vigilance against ( real ) criminal activity . Probable cause is just that -- not nearly the same standard as ' beyond a reasonable doubt ' , which is what is required for a conviction . <p> The standard for law enforcement is individualized suspicion based on an objective facts indicative of probable criminal activity . The " facts " reported to authorities were that two men each spent twenty minutes in the toilet , did not reply to someone speaking to them at the door , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ her unfounded arrest , abduction , detention , search , and molestation . The power to do that is not delegated to the federal government by the Constitution . <h> moondancer <p> I ca n't believe some of you who can just dismiss it as a " little inconvenience " . Just read and think a little harder and imagine what it would be like if the same thing happened to you . You were handcuffed and carted off the plane while everybody looks at you like those who bombed the Twin Towers on 9/11 . Forced to undress in front of a bunch of strangers and searched even in your body cavities ( yes , your private parts ) . You were treated like the worst criminal on earth . You may be on FBI watch list for a long time after this ( that means every time you apply for a job you 'll be question for it ) Now , do you still think it as a " little inconvenience " ? . That would scar me for the rest of my life . It 's important @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a while . That 's what mature adults do . <h> v <p> My comment was going to be exactly the same . It is SO IMPORTANT that you wrote this . I ca n't imagine for every person who writes or talks or tweets about an experience like this , how many must be shutting up ! <p> Thank You and I will do my best to see this article is passed around in my part of the world . <h> Leslie <p> I am horrified and would like to use a whole bunch of expletives right now . Love your second to last line : " This country has operated for the last 10 years through fear . We 've been a country at war and going bankrupt for much of this time . " I 'd apologize for my " countrymen " - except , gee , they 're your countrymen as well . I hope we come to our senses one day and stop reacting to and through fear . <h> Margaret Helmick <p> Hey , 9/11-traveler , the nearly 3,000 people who were killed on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ever again . And you know what ? Their " freedom " is gone FOREVER , and you complain about a few hours being detained . Where have you been for ten years ? Wake Up : People who look like you DID THIS to innocent people . Get over yourself . And it sounds like you are actually PROUD your husband was able to smuggle a pocket knife on to an airplane after 9/11 . <p> My husband is a tall dark Italian man , with a beard and mustache , and he is pulled aside and gets a " special search " every single time he has flown since 10/11/01 , no matter what the date is . That 's the price we all pay now for what your fellow middle eastern countrymen did on 09/11/01 . <p> Are the authorities truly supposed to ignore warnings and then take the blame later if something happens to you or your family ? Are they mind readers ? And apparently you also profile people by their appearance , I lost track of all of the disparaging descriptions you lauded by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and having " buzz " cuts and then continuing to rant about how you hate country music , speedboats , shitty beer can cozies , and rednecks you mentioned . Come on , now who 's racially profiling ? And guess what , those same " fat belly " police men and women will be the very FIRST people you call when you need help ... <h> squiddia <h> Glenda Hawthorne <p> It 's not even worth the time it takes to think of a response for people who have the mindset of Ms. Helmick . She is obviously bought into the whole " rule them by fear " mentality that was foisted onto the American people throughout the last decade . She is ruled by fear and hate . <h> Dash <h> e <p> Why would you even take the time to make a disgusting comment like this ? What she was writing about here are that paranoia and hate are ALWAYS wrong , as is judging people by their appearance . Never at any point did she downplay the horrific events that occurred on that date 10 years @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about how afraid she was when she thought that there was some sort of terrorist activity taking place on the plane -- completely unaware that the commotion was because of her and neighboring passengers . If you actually read/comprehended this eloquent , intelligent story , you would have gathered that . <p> She was not pulled aside and searched in line , she was removed from a plane by armed officers , placed in a cell and strip-searched because of the color of her skin . Also , for the record , she is an American , just like you . <h> Kate S <p> Are you intimating that she should " pay the price " of being strip searched and detained forcibly because of what she looks like ? Really ? Are you comparing the minor search your husband receives , and your resulting momentary inconvenience , to what she experienced ? Are you aware that she , and others who have experienced this type of profiling , will now most likely have an FBI record for the rest of their lives due solely to having the audacity to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ describes the clothing and general appearance of just about everyone involved in this incident , perhaps she was trying to set a scene and give details to bring the story to life for her readers . How dare a writer do such a thing . I applaud the rest of the people who managed to read your post and not comment , as I have no doubt you will remain safely in your hate filled little bubble of judgement and generalizations . I , for one , am sure I will regret engaging in such a juvenile squabble , but .... Post comment it is . <h> Bailey <h> SilenceDogood <h> Jan <p> I ca n't believe that you would write such an article merely because you were inconvenienced for a few hours . You were treated with kindness and respect by those officers . Those men and women put their lives on the line everyday to keep us all safe . Your aweful quips about their haircuts and beer bellies was disgusting . You have no idea how lucky you are to be an American . If the same @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ may well have been beaten and tortured . Lastly , you have some nerve comparing yourself to Malcome X. You are pathetic . <h> Allison <p> And if the same experience had happened on Mars , the situation would have been totally different ! <p> That argument is really not a good one . It happened here , to an American who was detained for her appearance only . Just because she was " only " detained , strip searched , and interrogated , and not also raped and tortured does not make it right or acceptable . <h> Allison <h> Bailey <p> Hmmm ... yes , things might have been different if she was in Saudi Arabia . But is n't that the point -- in America we have certain freedoms and rights and this woman was not only in America , but also an America citizen . So , I think your argument is pretty weak . <p> Just because an officer is nice , does not justify a baseless incarceration based on racial profiling and not suspicious actions . <h> SilenceDogood <p> Jan , I ca n't @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nice while they strip search someone does n't make it appropriate , or even noble , as you imply . <p> " Those men and women " do n't put their lives on the line , they drum up fear and ignorance in the name of 9/11 hysteria . <p> Let me ask you something , if you were around in the 1800 ? s , would you just have easily chastised a runaway slave for complaining of treatment because the nice officer who returned her to her master was so nice ? After all , those were the rules ! <h> Max <h> bigyaz <p> So just having skin of a different color is a good enough reason for someone to be cuffed , dragged off a plane and strip searched ? In our America ? No , that 's not acceptable . And you would n't think so either if they started targeting stupid white people . <h> GrammarPolice <h> Sarah <p> You were n't in the same situation as her . I 'd like to know what gives you the authority to say of someone else 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were treated with " kindness and respect " ? You also ca n't speak on behalf of Saudi Arabia . Have you been there ? What do you know or should I say what do you think you know that can be proven by people who live there ? <p> I live in the same country as people like you ? I 'm embarrassed . It 's comments like these that make me want to hide my US passport in a drawer out of shame . The next time I look at an American flag it wo n't be out of pride . I 'll be shaking my head in shame thinking of how the Internet runs rampant with ignorance such as yours . <h> Jen D <p> Jan , Shoshi never compared herself with Malcom X ; she drew from his example and decided to write about her experience . Regarding the " aweful ( sic ) quips " -- she was relating her feelings during the incident . I think Shosi has every idea of " how lucky ( she ) is to be an American . " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the world , from my point of view . <h> Chetan <p> You obviously did n't read the post . Dumping an innocent person in a cell and strip searching them ( violating their constitutional rights , I might add ) is being treated with respect ? And the only thing you 're offended by is her talking about how she felt in the middle of it ? <p> Yeah , it would have been worse in Saudi Arabia , but I 'd like to think the bar is a little higher over hear . <h> Sean Race <p> I really hope this is not a serious comment . But , please , please do not call upon the peaceful dead to further your obviously ignorant agenda . There is a major difference between mourning the dead and trying to prevent it happening again and obstructing others ' freedoms so that a bunch of fat , white middle class Americans can feel safe when they get on an airliner . <p> Her rights were violated , quite clearly , only because she happens to share the same skin color as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ago . Hey , here 's an idea : Should we pull any poor or lower middle class white people aside because Timothy McVeigh blew up a government building in Okla . City ? Or perhaps anyone of Irish heritage because they could possibly be in love with the ideology of the 60s-70s IRA . Would that make you feel safer ? <h> Samantha <h> SilenceDogood <h> Markus <p> As a white , Catholic-baptised male , I ca n't remember the last time I was hassled at an Enterprise because " someone who looks like me " used a rental van to blow up a federal building . I use the McVeigh comparison all the time , myself , because it perfectly demonstrates how a white man killing Americans ( even the guy who *flew a plane into the IRS building* a while back ) is " a nutjob " while anyone who even looks Middle Eastern is an immediate suspect . <h> amanda <p> I agree with you Margaret , this gal is a racist who hates white people , yet moved to a white country because it 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ How 's about this : We all segregate ourselves into nations based on what we look and act like . Then we we can trust those like us and not trust those who are different ! Diversity is DIVISIVE ! <h> GreenJello <p> Huh . I was molested by 3 WHITE people growing up . My father was physically abusive to me . He 's WHITE , too . My friend was raped by a WHITE male . Some WHITE teenagers broke into my garage and stole some things . <p> Yeah , segregation really helps us to be able to cut down on crime and feel safe with " our own kind " . Whatever . Low-life scum are in all races , all places on this earth . <h> Allison <h> Andrea <p> Um , Dan , this is not a white country . This country was built on the backs of black people , Chinese people , and Mexicans . The United States is the best damn place in the world because millions of immigrants and slaves generated its wealth and never benefited from their labor . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what you mean by " white . " Who is white ? Who are your people ? And how do white people act ? <h> Markus <p> Is it ironic to chastise a brown-skinned woman for moving to a nation full of white people whose ancestors massacred a bunch of brown-skinned people who were already living there ? Or just good old fashioned ignorant and racist ? <h> Jess <h> Allison <p> I tend to hang out on sites that are pretty resistant to trolls . Given that Dan 's post was n't too far different from some of the other posts here in which the posters ( as far as I can tell ) were being absolutely dead serious , I do n't think we should be condemned that quickly . I have actually seen and read comments about diversity being dangerous that are pretty close to this post and that were heartfelt beliefs . <h> M <p> Wow , you 've really drunk the Kool-aid , have n't you , Margaret Helmick ? We have rights in this country that were actually taken away by the USA Patriot @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Someone else mentioned that this was not so much an issue of profiling but of bad profiling and I agree to a certain extent . If you think the author of this blog who had the grace &; eloquence to write about her traumatic experience deserves this treatment because she looks like the people who perpetrated 9/11 ( who , by the way , are not her countrymen ; Americans are her countrymen ) , then what about the two Indians sitting next to her ? If you think Indians and Arabs look alike , you need to travel more . And hopefully , when you travel , you will not be treated badly for what your country ( OUR country ) has done to other countries . <h> Brent <p> So by your logic every time you drive a car , you should be pulled over because " people who look like you " bombed the federal building in Oaklahoma City " to innocent people . " Every time you get near a hospital , you should be stripped search because " people who look like you " have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to innocent people . " Every time you are near a school you should be detained because you may be the next Anders Breivick . And you should take this type of treatment with a big fat smile on your face . <p> What is worrisome is that this is the current state of our Homeland Security . Racial profiling is not only a travesty because it treats those arabs and those who look like arabs as second class citizens but it makes it easier for non arab looking individuals and groups to commit terrorism ( ref Anders Breivick ) . <p> To Shoshana , I am horrified by your treatment and I am equally horrified by the ignorance some have displayed in you comments . Thank you for sharing your story . <p> Actually , you appalling troll , her " fellow countrymen ? " That 's us . You and me . American citizens . You 're trying to paint her with the ugly brush because she looks different and you 've got baggage about what happened , because if you succeed , it 's okay to be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of her . If she 's guilty , my lily-white ass is too . And being as I 'd rather stand with her than with you , I think I can make my peace with that in short order . <h> Angi <p> A woman 's rights were violated for no good reason , and she reported feeling some non-charitable thoughts towards the people who were doing this to her , and the thing that offends you is that she was n't deferential enough IN HER OWN MIND to her white masters . <h> Liz <p> You are an idiot . The author is a US citizen . Period . The terrorists were not her " fellow middle eastern countrymen . " The author had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks . And your husband has never , ever , been imprisoned and strip searched , so STFU . YOU should leave the US , because YOU are the anti-American -- as evidenced by your complete disdain of civil rights . <h> Chetan <p> Her fellow Mid Eastern countrymen ? Margaret Helmick , your entire post is so full @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the absurdities in it . Some racist gets terrified because 3 dark brown people are in a row on an airplane and next thing they 've got fighter jets scrambled , a SWAT Team waiting and after all the BS , even the FBI admits people are seeing things that are n't there . I mean this post was buttugly stupid but that comment about her fellow MidEastern countrymen should get you some kind of redneck award for being dumb as a brick . <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> People who look like her got hauled off to death camps in Germany , too . 18% of the people who died on 9/11 look like her . She is half Jewish . Jews were targets of the 9/11 attack . Are you going to blame her for that ? <p> Her description of people was her showing irony due to her being profiled for her looks . <h> DW <p> Whoa . You 're fellow middle eastern countrymen ? Please ! I highly doubt that whoever you are referring to in this post associates themeslves with the radicals that started @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 'm as white as white can be , born and raised in the US . I 'm well educated , God fearing , care about my manners , respect the law , and expect the law to respect me . I travel with my family , on business , and with friends on vacation about 20 times a year . And every time I travel I get frisked . Every single flipping time ! I 'm 6 ' 2 ? , 250lbs , brown hair , brown eyes , no tats , one wedding ring , no record ( well , I got a speeding ticket once ) , have n't traveled out of the US since 9/11 . I ca n't even get a dark tan and pretend to be a different race ! I hate beer coozies , and mean readnecks -- or maybe it 's just mean people in general I hate . <p> I grew up the minority and was racially profiled for being white . In my teen 's and 20 ? s I lost jobs to Hispanics and African Americans . I was turned @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ point blank , this is a job for a Mexican not you . So suffice it to say that I get what this feels -- and looks like . And if you 've never been on that end of the stick , you too ( yes , even you who are married to a tall Italian ) will never understand what it means to be pushed aside and/or singled out simply because of your skin . It sucks . It 's maddening . It makes you say things about people who are abusing you that boggle even your own educated mind . <p> this is a direct result of american capitulation to fear and terror after the attacks . from the top ( W. and Cheney ) down we have failed to learn anything of significance ; the aftermath should have been handled better . sorry for the horrors inflicted on you and those with you on your flight . <h> Lauren <p> I 'm so angry on your behalf . I recently re-listened to a radio show , This American Life , which detailed the bullying and abuse of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the show is available to listen to for free here : http : **35;6068;TOOLONG ... . I 'd highly recommend it , for the original author of this post and for anyone commenting on it . What you read here is NOT an isolated incident because of the particular date . It is part of a long history of discrimination and disrespect on the part of most Americans towards Arab people , or people who look like them may be of Arab descent . <p> Nicholas Kristof posted a link to this on FB ; you do n't know me , but I am glad he did because this post affected me profoundly . <p> I am American-born and Caucasian , and happen to be on a layover on an international flight . I was able to go through a TSA scanner with my dignity intact and even joked about Yankees v. Mets with the TSA agent as he was processing me . I also could make the mistake of not taking my keys out of my pocket and be corrected for it , without feeling like I was being @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't think I fully realized how lucky I am . I never thought I *deserved* this treatment , it just did n't occur to me how real and how different the reality was . <p> So thank you for raising my awareness . I may also blog about this once I reach my destination ( do n't want to jinx myself while at the airport , bashing the security state ! ) . I did want to thank you for your experience . Not for going through it but for having the courage to share it , you know ? <h> Liz <p> I 've been subjected to breast fondling even after the nekkid picture , because the Rhodes scholar who read my x-ray apparently had never seen an underwire bra . So the nice TSA lady felt me up . Guilty until proven innocent , that 's the American Way . <h> SilenceDogood <p> After reading this I ca n't think of the words strong enough to tell you how sorry I am that this happened to you . The burden of 9/11 has fallen so heavy on so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ writing this ... I will share it . <h> FlickDude <p> You absolutely MUST look to pursue this legally . From your description , your rights as a US citizen have most definitely been violated , as has your body . On absolutely no grounds other than a report from a clueless , fear-mongered fool . <p> Please , do not stop here . This level of xenophobia is inexcusable . We have to stop . The government has to stop before people begin to beat people in the streets for simply being " brown " . <p> My heart is broken for you . Thank you for having the guts to tell the story , and please do n't stop there . I have shared this as well via Twitter . <p> I am so very glad to hear this . I am only a paralegal , but as I read ( and cried ) through your account , I mentally ticked off violations of law and basic constitutional rights and could only hope you would seek further counsel . <p> Like 99.9% of the other posters , I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to anyone else . I am simply stunned , appalled , nauseated , and angry that our country has turned into this police state . See something , say something has become nothing more than state-sanctioned racisim and terrorism and only the innocent have been caught up in this horrible dragnet . Soon , it wo n't even be racism -- anyone , no matter what the skin color , who disagrees or speaks up against the fear machine will soon find themselves undergoing a cavity search , too . <p> Thank you so very much for having the fortitude to write this up and post it . I 'm glad you have a support system in place as you process this experience and deal with the more-than-likely fallout . I sincerely hope that this helps bring awareness of how far we 've fallen and I 'll post this link on my FB ( in addition to Twitter , etc. ) to get the message out there . <p> I am so very glad to hear this . I am only a paralegal , but as I read ( and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ violations of law and basic constitutional rights and could only hope you would seek further counsel . Like 99.9% of the other posters , I am so very sorry this happened to you -- or to anyone else . I am simply stunned , appalled , nauseated , and angry that our country has turned into this police state . See something , say something has become nothing more than state-sanctioned racisim and terrorism and only the innocent have been caught up in this horrible dragnet . Soon , it wo n't even be racism -- anyone , no matter what the skin color , who disagrees or speaks up against the fear machine will soon find themselves undergoing a cavity search , too . <p> Thank you so very much for having the fortitude to write this up and post it . I 'm glad you have a support system in place as you process this experience and deal with the more-than-likely fallout . I sincerely hope that this helps bring awareness of how far we 've fallen and I 'll post this link on my FB ( in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out there . <p> My apologies for how our country , the airline personnel , your fellow passengers , and DHS/law enforcement treated you , a U.S. citizen , and the other two individuals . <h> Liz <p> I hope you pursue this . I believe that this is exactly the sort of situation that could finally lead to a SCOTUS review of the horrors that are being inflicted upon innocent citizens that are in complete violation of the Fourth Amendment . This ca n't go unchallenged . <h> Michelle <p> One of my friends posted this on Facebook , and I followed the link . This is awful ! I hope nothing like this ever happens to you again . It 's unfair that it happened to begin with . The person who reported you is clearly pretty small minded and racist . Paranoia does n't excuse that sort of behavior . I 'll share this on my Facebook , too , to get stories like this out ! <p> Thanks for sharing this story ... I saw it on Mark Armstrong 's FB feed and was horrified reading @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on ; I feel like the only way these things have a chance of stopping is to share real stories . So glad you are safe . <h> Mo <p> This is crazy Shoshi ! Justin and I read a news report last night after we saw your 3 tweets to see what had happened . All we saw was that 2 men and 1 woman were detained . I ca n't believe that was you ! I 'm happy to hear that you 're safe and home again , and I 'm so happy that the boys were n't with you . Stil in awe ... <h> James <p> Thanks for so eloquently sharing your written account . This made my experience with the government tame by comparison , but I still feel violated all over again by reading this . I can sadly tell you that it 's not just darker-skinned folks who get this treatment , it 's anyone and everyone they choose . I have shared your story and hope that others will share their accounts . I am truly ashamed of the legacy our country @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .... I 'm not sure I would have been able to stay calm . I 've always refused to believe that I might one day be a racial profiling victim . As I travel through the US and Europe , I am mostly not concerned about being singled-out . I guess I 've convinced myself that somehow I would get treated like any average N American . I even refused to acknowledge the fact that the only reason I was n't able to check-in and print my boarding pass online or at the airport was simply because I was born in Arab country . On my way to LA , I was informed that I was " randomly " chosen to pass extra security . It might be random , but now I know that if I was Kate Jones from Maryland , married to Jeff Williams , I would have been able to check-in online . I 'm so glad that you wrote this blog and that it is being shared on FB and Twitter . Maybe your story and others like it will help change this obviously flawed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the jumpy nature that all of the media 's cries of " potential 9/11 terror threats " instilled in us . I do . But what you suffered because of your ethnicity I find unforgivable , appalling , shameful . George Carlin once said that airport security exists solely to make white people feel safe . We need to guard our airports , sure ... but we need to guard them from terrorism , not from People Who Look Like They Might Be From the Middle East , God Forbid . <p> You are an amazing individual for handling this disgrace with as much dignity as you have showed . I 'll be sharing your story and conveying my admiration . <p> A report of " suspicious behavior ? ? ? ? " Good thing some anonymous tipster did n't denounce you as a witch . What , we 're going to have SWAT teams deploy now every time somebody farts during the national anthem ? Land of the brave , indeed . <h> dan <p> While I 'm sorry you had to go through with this ordeal , I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ If someone had correctly reported the suspicious behavior of the 9/11 hijackers that day , history might have been quite different . Nobody that reported you knew you , or had anything against you personally . Yes it is unfair , but when people are bent on destruction and will kill planeloads of innocent civilians without thinking twice , not everything can be fair . <p> I think the officials involved treated you more than reasonably , given the situation , and your only beef should be with the trigger-happy person that reported you . Taking the incident beyond that seems like a stretch . <h> ER <p> So Dan , what was it exactly that SHE did that caused someone to report " suspicious behavior ? " Oh , that 's right , she sat next to two other dark-skinned individuals . On the anniversary of 9/11 . Now that 's suspicious ! <h> Liz <p> WHAT ? ? ! ! ! Treated her " reasonably " ? ? ! ! Are you insane ? ? ! ! She was stripped and cavity searched ! ! ! What is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ! ! Please get the hell out of the US and leave it to people who TRULY value our FREEDOM , not just our safety . <h> Jess <p> The " authorities " were informed numerous times of the actually-suspicious behavior of most of the 9/11 bastards . If you believe the state enforcement apparatus exists to protect the average citizen , I have a bridge I 'd like to sell you , real cheap . <p> It is n't clear that there was actually a suspicious passenger . They certainly have n't produced one . <h> Jay <p> -You are of a ethnic group that is known to be " racially profiled " because of 9-11. -You chose to fly on 9-11 , and sit alongside others of suspicious ethnic groups . -You were " racially profiled " because people of your ethnic group blew up almost 3,000 of our people , people that never even heard of Osama bin Laden before . -You then proceed to complain about a violation of your " civil rights " when in fact , none of them were violated . Ever travel @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ did pale in comparison , and they have the safest flights in the world . <p> So you purposefully chose to fly on 9-11 , knowing the atmosphere in our great country being how it is , and ESPECIALLY on this day when we were attacked by the likes of your people and you dare to complain about the measures put in place to guard us from the likes of you ? Please . <p> You have NO room to complain , and I , for one , am glad that I chose to report you and the likes of you . I had a safe flight , content in the knowledge that I did n't have to watch that section out of the corner of my eye the whole flight , and wondering if this would be the last flight I ever took . You deserved exactly what you got , you sympathizer , and if you do n't like what we are doing here to keep US safe , then go back home . <h> Bailey <p> Incredibly un-American comments here . A " real " American appreciates @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ chooses , especially when that person is a law-abiding citizen . A " real " American does not judge an entire ethnic group comprised of millions of people based on the actions of a few . ( By your logic , all Americans should be judged on the actions of Timothy McVeigh , Eric Rudulph , or the Unibomber ? ) A " real " American does not tell a fellow American citizen to " go back home . " <p> Also , for the record , I do n't know how she " chose " to sit next to " others of suspicious ethnic groups " given that the seating decision is determined by the airline . And since when are Indians a " suspicious ethnic group " ? India is a huge ally of the United States and Indians were not involved in the 9/11 terrorist attacks . <p> What I object to is the notion that " her " ethnic group killed 3,000 of " our " people . So no people of Arab or Jewish descent were innocent victims of the terrorists on 9/11 ? How @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> Yes , Bailey . 100% And it 's the ignorant , hate mongers like Jay who killed a Sikh after 9-11 in Phoenix , a hard working gas station owner making a contribution in the community . They killed him in retribution to 9-11 , in their complete supidity , apparently thinking a Sikh would be a buddy of Osama Bin Laden . I speak Arabic &; Spanish . If everyone spoke 3-4 languages , maybe we would not be so tribal and backward in this country . <h> Summer <p> You do n't deserve to be an American citizen . You 're a nasty , selfish , ignorant bastard who enjoys that privilege by an unfortunate accident of birth . I would trade 1,000 of you for one Shoshanna , but not before I punched you in the face repeatedly for my own satisfaction . I hope you are as miserable and unloved as you sound , and I hope you stay that way for the rest of your disgusting , worthless little life . I am ashamed to share this planet with you and anyone you may @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ rather die than see my America overtaken by " the likes of you . " <h> Concerned US Citizen <p> Well , while he is what you said , violence is part of the problem . Part of the privilege of being an American is freedom of speech . I do n't like what he said either , but I hope he becomes less miserable to be around . <p> I am a " real USA citizen " just like you Jay and I am disgusted by the behavior and sentiment you are exhibiting here to another " real USA citizen " as she practices her right to free speech after an unreasonable search and seizure which is a clear violation of her rights as a " real USA citizen . " <p> She has every right to complain , just like you have every right to share your racist , xenophobic comments . She was traveling in the U.S. as a U.S. citizen . This did not take place in 1984 by Orwell and this did not take place in 1960 ? s U.S.S.R. This happened in American , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ M <p> " real " USA citizen : You redneck idiot . It 's people like you that welcomed the Nazis in in Germany . Are you really saying that because she looked vaguely arabic she should have forgone her right to fly , as a free American citizen , on any given day she chose to ? Are you truly suggesting that she should downgrade herself because of the fears of what people like you hold ? America is in the grip of fear , and fear makes you weak ... your weakness disgusts me . <h> Jeremy Shapiro <p> Well I thought this blog post was the most sickening thing I 'd read today , and then I read Jay 's response . I feel so lucky -- so incredibly lucky -- that I won the skin pigment lottery and thus am not the target of filth like him in my own country . Just gross , gross and sad . <p> To the author , for what it 's worth I asked a trial lawyer friend of mine about your experience , and he had this to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It 's a witch 's brew of national security , terry stops , FAA regs , and her consent . I think if she had stopped talking and asked for a lawyer things may have been interesting . Which is n't to say she still does n't have a claim , but I 'm simply not as knowledgeable as I 'd like to be for these situations . Her tacit engagement ( sadly ) does n't help her case , but at the same time there are limits . I 'd be happy to take it to court anyway and make them prove their case . " <h> mike <p> Hey Co*k S*cker -- get your facts right , it is people of your color who did 9/11 -- used a bunch of sand n*ggers to execute it -- so that they can get slaves like you buy into their elitist agenda of plundering the wealth of the nation and feed their greedy military industrial complex buddies -- banker and the likes . You moron , today its some sand n*gger , tomorrow its us . Think you are safe @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ retardation viruses ( maybe also done that in your case ) , fed genetically modified cow dung , and told you are living a free and happy life -- which you will most like believe . <p> I 'm sorry you had to go through the humiliating and terrifying experience with the DHS , and I 'm even more sorry that small-minded bigots are now bashing you , here on your own blog , for speaking out against the violations of your rights . <h> M &M; <p> AMEN ....... ( as we say in the US ! ) to Jay who commented on 9/12 @ 9:07pm . For those of you who are so sad that this happened to these people on this flight where the hell were you 10 years ago on 9/11 . Have you forgotten the pit inside you ? Maybe you had no feeling of sorrow for our country that day or the people who we lost . Talk about UN-AMERICAN ! Thanks to the FBI and the crew members and the Air force who were doing their jobs at keeping those on that flight @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . You were born of the ethnic group that is " profiled " in this the GREAT country . Why would you choose to fly on 9/11 ? I feel sorry and sad that you had to go through what you went through , however .... yes there are many Americans who will be on guard FOREVER because of 9/11 . Sorry you are of the " ethnic group " that we are on guard from . Would n't it be nice to say we trust everyone again ? Do n't get this guy Jay wrong , I am sure there have been times when he has wondered if he were safe around some of the White Trash Americans too ! However just a little advice in case you have n't learned . If you do n't want to be profiled there are 364 other days a year you could fly and not have people freaked . <p> Un- American to be like this ? No ..... there are many of us who have had fear put into us forever . Say it " they win we lose " ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wo n't let our guard down anymore ! If I recall right how many chants have been given by this " ethnic group " " DEATH TO AMERICA ? " We have a right to be on high alert all days of the year but a stronger right on 9/11 ! <p> Good luck to you I truly hope that you have a great life and recover from your 9/11/2011 experience . You sound like a nice lady but I also hope you have a better understanding that many Americans are not over what happen 10 yrs ago and we NEVER will be . It is n't that we are " being racial " . We are being SMART ! And the next time we are high jacked or held hostage by anyone of the group the USA " profiles " and we stop and attack what will the feelings be then ? Gratefulness ! <h> Allison <p> God bless a USA that does n't violate the Constitutional rights of its citizens because of their skin color . <p> God bless a USA that does n't allow unsubstantiated reports of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the violation of Constitutional rights . <p> God bless a USA in which people recognize that being of a particular ethnic group does not automatically equate to being a terrorist . <p> God bless a USA In which people are not racially profiled based on nothing of their behavior but everything of their skin color , and can fly on any goddamn day they please , because they have that freedom . <h> Ian <p> I remember the pit inside me , yes . I remember that I though , " Shit . People are going to use this to push through crazy fascist laws . There goes my freedom . " <p> I was never afraid for my life . And my life was never in danger . I was afraid for my freedoms . And those have been taken from me . By people who always wanted to take those from me , because the American people , who used to prize freedom , allowed themselves to be scared into giving them up . <p> And now you 're DEFENDING your own cowardice ? Saying that it 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ scared ? <p> Bravery involves doing the right thing . Cowardice leads to evil . Which side are you on ? <h> Liz <p> So , as a US citizen of Arab descent , she has no right to travel , right ? And because the airline decided where she would sit ( she did n't know the other guys , so how , exactly , did she " choose " to sit with them ? ) , she is at fault for the fact that her seatmates were also of Arab descent , right ? And being imprisoned and strip-searched is what she deserved as a descendant of a Middle Eastern lineage , right ? Even though she is a US citizen and her HOME is in Ohio ( that 's a state in the US , by the way , in case you did n't know ) . How about YOU leave the country , since you do n't care about the freedoms upon which this once great nation was founded ? Go found another Nazi or Fascist country . You 'll feel right at home . Cretin @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in hatred . Hatred that a VERY SMALL GROUP of a certain nationality had for a country . Hatred that ran so deep that it did n't matter to them that the specific people they murdered in their acts were just random citizens , and not THE people they held hatred for . <p> They decimated people , and they decimated buildings that were the heart of America . And in the process , hatred created hatred . <p> Jay , your post is a prime example of this . I disagree that , due to her skin , her appearance , her ancestry , that Shebshi should have stayed home . I disagree that she should have known . I disagree that she should have to guard her every move , because someone else has let fear breed hatred and prejudice against her just because she is not white . <p> One of the things that North America should pride itself on most is openness , a melting pot society where EVERYONE is equal . We are not " Animal Farm " ( Orwell ) . We should not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ white men being MORE equal than others . That is bullshit , and it is shameful . <p> On September 11 , 2001 , I watched the footage unfold on my television , with a pit in my stomach so heavy it was indescribable . Ten years later , as the footage was re-played , I felt the same pit , with the same intensity . Today , reading this , it 's increased ... I did n't think the feeling could get any worse . <p> If we allow this hatred to infiltrate our lives , then all the people whose lives were lost , all the emergency response personnel who sacrificed theirs , underneath piles of steel that crumbled under the hatred of those select few , ALL OF IT will be for naught . And we ourselves will continue to create victims of this tragedy , by our own actions . <p> The thought makes me ill . <p> Shebshi , I do n't know you , but I 'm so very sorry you went through this , and unbelievably grateful that you had the strength to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is no legal recourse for you , that perhaps in the sharing of your experience and the spreading of this story , perhaps there will be a way to lobby for change . <p> Everyone needs to step away from the hatred , else we will never be safe , and the danger will not only be from the outside , but also from within . 9/11 NEVER should have happened . But it did . So now , it 's up to us to make sure it was n't in vain . <h> Marty <p> I do not men to diminish your reply , as I agree with you and it seems very thought out and intelligent , but you are misusing the word decimated ( which means to destroy one tenth of something , as the prefix suggests , and has also been adapted more recently to mean destroy a large percentage of ) . Perhaps obliterated would have been a better fit here . Your point was not lost though , I 'm just kind of a jerk sometimes . Sorry . <h> bglick <p> It 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to . I am so so so sorry for what happened to you . I 'm severely opposed to the Patriot Act ( I understand the underlying point , but I 'm still opposed ) and all the fear mongering that has gone on in this damn country the last 10 years . I do n't understand how we went from banding together immediately after 9/11 happened to now picking up anyone with a slight tan and throwing them in a cell for however long we deem necessary . It 's disgusting how our freedoms and rights are slowly being consumed in the name of protection , and we are forced into giving up these freedoms without question , too stunned to even begin to figure out how to fight back . <p> Something needs to change . We ca n't go on like this , locking every person up that looks different . Eventually we 'll all be put in jail . <p> This is a disgusting display , Shoshana . I am glad you were able to recount it in so much detail . <p> As a Canadian @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a matter of work or a very specific visit that I ca n't avoid . These are the stories that make me wonder about what could happen to me , those I 'm travelling with or the innocent people around me . Destroying individuals ' freedoms , even for a few hours , is entirely unacceptable -- especially in a country where every newscast or interview with the general public includes a reference to " freedom " -- whatever that is these days . <h> AR <p> Do you really think Canadian Officials are less racists ? In Dec 2009 , when I drove from NJ to Montreal . I was detained and harassed for a few hours by Canadian immigration . I was asked choice questions , such as , " Why are you single ? " " Why do you have a laptop in your car ? " " Why do you have $200 in your wallet ? " " Why did you book a hotel in Montreal only 4 days before your trip ? " <p> Of course , on the way back , I was given @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ did n't carry another South Asian passport . I told them that the only passport I need is US Passport , which I was carrying . <p> I 'm really sorry this happened to you . Were you not able to ask for a lawyer ? I was n't aware that ANYONE could force you to do a strip search . This seems like it was a violation of your 4th Amendment right . You may want to contact the local ACLU about this . They may be able to give you more details , but I feel you were unlawfully searched . I do n't study law nor do I know anything beyond what the 4th Amendment says but a strip search seems " unreasonable " . <h> lawmule <p> There is nothing in the Patriot Act that allows this type of unreasonable warrantless search performed without probable cause . Even a " Terry stop " temporary detention only allows a frisk ( patdown of outer garments ) IF an officer harbors reasonable suspicion that a person is ARMED . Fear &; profiling do not = reasonable articulable suspicion @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ post left me in tears , and angrier than ever at all the ways 9/11 has been twisted into a convenient vehicle for people 's blind ignorance and fear . I do agree with Paul 's comment ( above ) that airport security needs to be run by professionals , and ignorant people ( as the person obviously was who " reported " you ) should not be allowed to run the show . I am going to repost this . Meanwhile , i hope you do find out who " reported " you -- i would like to see them hauled in for questioning themselves . And all those officers who were doing their " duty " -- at what point do they stop following orders and see for themselves what is really going on ? <p> You 're a better person than I. I would have told them if they are n't arresting me , they 'd better release me and not answered any of their questions . If they asked to see my Facebook or Twitter , they would have heard some foul language explaining to them @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Citizen that thinks this is justifiable , I 'll call you a coward to your face . Liberty comes with a cost , and that cost is that you 're not safe . Safety is an illusion anyway and totally contrary to liberty . <p> I 'm truly glad I served 8 years so my fellow citizens could just throw it all away . /sarcasm <h> Crystal <p> Sad to know about your experience.Is n't it disturbing how even common people have started to stereotype people on the basis of their race and appearance ? Somewhere , development of this philosophy has to do with government 's actions , policies and behaviour.Even if cops are reported about any such suspicious behaviour , they need to be easy with people and behave in a better manner.And I really think we need to have officials who can actually judge the body language of a person.They did not have the right to treat you this way , right ? . WRONG.They actually did , thanks to the policies of the government.What a shame . <h> Rich <p> Hind site is twenty twenty , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ YOU were placed under arrest without any probable cause they committed multiple crimes against you and you should be naming names and in the process of suing them AND do not settle . <p> Dear Shebshi , I 'm an airline captain . I pilot a B-737 for a major air carrier based in the United States . On behalf of my colleagues in the profession , I apologize for what happened to you . I would have been furious if any member of my family had been treated like that . My company trains us to judge passengers according to the way they behave , not the way they look . <p> I have not heard the other sides of the story , so I will reserve my condemnation of anyone else until I get all of the facts . However , I 'll say this : If things transpired exactly as you described , this would not have been enough to cause me to report you or your fellow passengers as a security threat . I hope that , as time passes , you 'll be able to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you and anyone else who " looks different " unjustified discomfort . Please trust us again to safely transport you and your family . <h> Jeff Larson <p> Mr. Nelson , the finest compliment I can pay you is that if more people had the common sense , courtesy , and decency that you exhibited in that post , Shoshona would have never had to suffer the mistreatment that she endured , and neither of us would have visited her blog today . May all your skies be CAVU . <p> Your ability to write this report under your despicable circumstances is to be admired . We must work together all of us and continue to be vocal about the way we are handling " security " in the United States . It is not just and it does not make sense . <p> shebshi : i told myself that i would avoid my friends political posts this month because of the despair it causes me. the futility of feeling and knowing i can do nothing about my own dismal personal situation , and even less about what is happening @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . i have especially studiously avoided all 9/11 remembrance propoganda , because , as our guest pastor pointed out , how much is remembrance and how much is ratings . as my first born is getting married in eleven days , i would like to harness what little spiritual and psychic energy i have , in her direction . but i will repost this blog which was shared by nicholas kristoff. and i will ask my friends to share this also . i , too , have had a run-in with d.h.s. at that point , i felt they had nothing better to do than to harrass a middle aged , high school instructional assistant . i was right . i 'm sorry they put you and the two gentleman through this horrendous experience . " People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both . " ( attributed to benjamin franklin ) GOD bless . <p> As far as I am aware all these extra security precautions have n't resulted in stopping a single terrorist action . The TSA , et . al @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talk-up how these security procedures have increased safety yet , they have n't done so . <p> The terrorists have won . The USA ( and the rest of the western-world ) has reduced personal liberty in so many situations , the worst demonstrable being air-travel . This must exceed any expectations they had for the actions of 9/11 . <p> There is no reasonably way back from this . Governments , who seize extra power , rarely return it when that power is no longer required . With everything happening in 2011 , it is easy to see the end of the world as we 've known it for the past 60 years . <h> aud <p> thank you so much for sharing your story . i , like many others , read the AP stories but you have truly brought the " reaction " to life for us. you are a much more tolerant woman that i , i would 've been flinging f-bombs right and left , loudly . i believe it was Paul who posted about my feelings on the subject -- this theatre we call @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about their trained professionals as i have a family member who works for the TSA . <p> glad you are safe , and i hope you , and all of us , can enjoy traveling again someday ... <p> Yuvi , you 're wise not to come to the US . I 've urged my friends overseas not to come either . This country has turned into a pool of hysteria and paranoia , with the complicity of millions of so-called citizens . <p> I am so sorry this happened to you . I am sorry my beautiful country has been taken over by profiteering thugs who have manipulated us into exactly what " the terrorists " want . I am also ashamed at my countrymen who would allow this to happen here and walk like sheep , undeserving of the benefits of true men and women of courage and conviction who did their best to form a government of freedom . <p> Please see my post Faithful To Thee , America , In Our Fashion . I will continue to speak of these matters irregardless of the consequences because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be a good citizen . <p> I am glad to know people like you understand this also . Thank you so much for posting . <h> Jenny Baker <p> I think your major conclusion is right , fear drives so much of what we do . The question becomes , is fear ever a good motivator ? By itself , I 'd say no . You were the victim of a fear-based society which only brings oppression and never freedom . I 'm so sorry you had to experience this . I can imagine how hard it is to process this experience . However , the strength with which you handled yourself is truly remarkable . I hope for a full healing and restoration of your soul . <p> I 'm very sorry you experienced this , and I do find it terrible . BUT , calling people " fat Jada Pinkett Smith " , " white middle aged cop " ' and generalizing hate against speedboats and country music makes your claims about what you believe in quite laughable . You had a chance to make a very powerful @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Rick <h> M <h> f . <p> Since when are people expected to be inhumanly graceful and kind while being detained and strip-searched for absolutely no reason ? Something tells me you 'd have a few uncharitable thoughts in that situation as well . <h> Online <h> pete.d <p> Are you suggesting the officer did not look like Jada Pinkett Smith , or that she was not fat ? Or that the other cop in question was not white , or that he was not middle-aged ? On what basis do you make those claims ? <p> As far as the question of hating " speedboats and country music " , it seems to me that those passages in her post do a very effective job of helping us understand the psychological state she was suffering under . Fact is , on the whole there are n't a whole lot of people involved in the " speedboat and country music " culture who are arguing for better protections of civil rights , but even if you think it 's not a fair generalization , the point is to bring us @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ effectively . <h> Jess <p> If the author had described a fat white woman as a " fat Celine Dion " , would that have been inherently racist ? Of course not . All black women do not look alike . This particular black woman looks like Jada Pinkett Smith , except she is fat . In describing her in that fashion , the author is n't drawing any particular attention to her race . <p> It is actually your racism that causes you to interpret any reference to a black celebrity as racism . <h> pete.d <p> Ignoring for a moment that the " frog in warming water " story is a myth , remaining a citizen and resident of the USA is no evidence of being metaphorically equivalent to said frog . <p> The frog does not have the option of adjusting the temperature of the pot to suit . A responsible American citizen absolutely does , and in fact that 's exactly what the author of this blog article is doing . Leaving the country does nothing to help the country , and in fact if every @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ left , no one would remain to help the country heal itself . <p> She is doing her part to publicize the heinous injustices perpetrated on travelers in the US , and to make an effort to rectify the situation . What are you doing ? <h> Philip <p> Unbelievable . I found your link on Nicholas Kristof 's facebook acct . Thanks for sharing , and you nor anyone deserves to be singled out for the color of their skin or their attire . And I also appreciated the fact that the only true criminal in this case was the pudgy middle aged white guy . Much love and remember that the vast majority of our country does n't think the way that the person who reported the three of you , does . I blame the stupid patriot act , the media for perpetuating gross stereotypes , and our crap educational system that does n't enable a lot of us to garner analytical thinking . Once again , sorry this happened to you and as a fellow American , I apologize . <h> Gulliver <h> Tamra Mosher <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ please know that I , a complete stranger who lost family in 9/11 , APOLOGIZE for the way you were treated . Your story shows just how far we have devolved as a country , and as humans in the past 10 years . I hope you are doing alright , and I applaud you for the grace in which you dealt with this situation and for sharing your story with everyone . Shalom . <h> Samia <p> So sorry you had to go through this . I also flew on 9/12/2011 . I am home now , but as I read this to my husband , I told him this very well could have been me . I am sharing this on my FaceBook page . My daughters go through similar things when they fly as well . It is not only the color of the skin , it is what you where and what your name sounds like or looks like . It is truly , truly sad and scary . Thank you for sharing . <h> Batya L. Wittenberg <p> I 'm a Jewish Orthodox woman in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 've been " randomly " picked out of airport security lines for an extra search . ( Funny , it only ever seems to happen when I 've covered my hair with a scarf instead of a hat .... ) I 've never been subjected to the kind of violation you describe , but every so often it 's brought home to me how easily I could be . <p> I am so , so sorry this happened to you . And I echo the sentiments of those above who have urged you to take legal action if possible . This ca n't be allowed to continue . <h> Ryan <p> Thanks for sharing your story , and I sympathize with your situation , which undoubtedly turned out to be nothing more than racial profiling . However , I 'm curious about something . What would you recommend the FBI do in this situation ? If a report is called in , mid flight , regarding suspicious activity , can you think of the " right " thing to do ? As a Caucasian , I 'll be the first @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be in your shoes , but I understand your anger , frustration , and humiliation ... I 'm just not sure I understand how this situation could have been handled in a more appropriate manner by the FBI , given the ( mis ) information they were given . <p> The FBI could have reviewed the source of the information and done further checking . <p> For example , just recently in AZ a woman was accused by a police informant of being a drug dealer . They obtained a warrant ( something that did n't happen here ) and she was brought to the hospital for a forced cavity search ( all cavities ) . The hospital sent her a bill . Nothing was found by the way . It appears police informants may lie occasionally . <p> In this case , this is probably on par of " people not like me are visiting the bathroom , and look at the lady with them . " This is on par with the airplane stewardess who reported a musician reading a book about WW2 aircraft . He was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ searched . <p> I did not hear anything in this account of being read her rights , being put under arrest , being told the charges she was being held for , or any description of the alleged activities that may have justified a strip search . This discounts the request for private information and other parts of the story ( as told here ) that basically put this into the 3rd world country category of " pick up a citizen , put them in a jail cell , do n't give them any rights , and harass them to your heart 's content " which is what banana republics do . <h> Ryan <p> Okay , so the FBI does some checking . They find out the accuser is Susie Q. Homemaker with nothing to note on her record . They research the accused and find out one is a US Citizen , one is an Indian Immigrant , the other , who knows . None have a criminal past . Does that mean the threat is neutralized ? Then what ? " Okay , threat averted , no @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just playing Devil 's advocate here , of course , but there is only so much passive investigation that can be done from a desk in Langley . <h> pete.d <p> So ? The answer is that you do n't make a judgment from a desk in Langley to drag a person off a plane in handcuffs . <p> Someone had a suspicion , based on something . That person is the first point of contact for law enforcement , those officers on site . They listen to whatever witness account that person has to share , and then based on a description of a specific behavior that the witness felt was suspicious , they either act or they do n't . <p> A chain of information led to the baseless arrests of these individuals . Either the law enforcement agents overreacted to insufficient basis , or a witness was lying about what they actually witnessed . There needs to be an investigation to determine at what point the people arrested were falsely accused , and the responsible parties need to be punished . <p> A vague sense that maybe @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ being dragged off a plane in handcuffs , never mind all the things that happened subsequent to that ! <h> Liz <p> Ryan , the FBI could have let her go once they found out that she is a US citizen and she passed through TSA when boarding the plane , and perhaps done a background check on her while she was still in the air . There simply was no reason whatsoever for their actions . There was no threat , and any human being with two brain cells to rub together , let alone allegedly highly trained security professionals , would have been able to figure it out . <h> Rebecca Ore <p> I live in Nicaragua as a resident alien . Nicaragua does grow bananas , but has n't been a banana republic in the political sense since 1979 . I 'm not sure the US is n't more of a banana republic in that sense than Nicaragua , Costa Rica , or Panama . <p> This incident was pretty wretched . The US sells itself as promoting democracy ( neo-liberalism is what they really promote ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . <h> pocketlama <p> I know you mean well and I 'm not attacking but I really do n't think it 's her responsibility to come up with something else law-enforcement should have done . That 's their job . <p> From my perspective , I have a comment on that . They regularly turn planes around or land at a near-by airport for " threats " or unruly passengers . The police then do an actual investigation and do n't do a full-on SWAT invasion of the plane . In the course of that investigation they would have figured out that Ms. Hebshi was only " guilty " of being in the same row as a sick man and let her go much sooner . <h> Brian <p> Racial profiling is totally within the law , and if you do n't believe that , you are ignorant . I do not have a problem AT ALL with what happened . Plus , I 'll bet that other things happened that were n't reported either . Good job FBI . I would n't want that job . Every time they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> OK , Brian , then let 's get you thrown into a prison cell and strip-searched right then and there without any cause and without any discussion . Since you 're so OK with it happening to her , you 'll be just fine with it happening to you , right ? Because what happened to her is no different from it happening to you just because I do n't like you . <h> s . <p> Ryan , " handled in a more appropriate manner " ? ? Are you kidding ? ? You think handcuffing , detaining , jailing , and detaining people is an " appropriate manner " ? ? Do you realize we have ( or had ) this thing called the Bill of Rights in this country ? <p> I 'm willing to bet that the lady would n't have overly complained if this story had n't involved getting handcuffed , forced to hold her bladder for hours , being shoved in a filthy cell , and being strip-searched , and ( oh , yeah ! ) having a little racist comment snarked off @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ There 's security , and there 's security theater , and then there 's " we 're going to publicly humiliate you and act with no regard for your humanity . " <p> We are starting to work with Michigan legislators , and since this happened in Detroit , if you so choose , you can help fight the illegal and abusive practices . <p> PERSONAL ADVICE : I recommend you contact a lawyer . Your background is interesting -- from an Arab perspective , CAIR works closely to protect Islamic rights , and I imagine the ADL might help from a Jewish perspective . <p> More importantly , independent of ethnicity , a US Citizen has rights . In our examination of 4th Amendment background law concerning strip searches , your rights may have been violated . There are lots of grey areas , although most courts believe suspects need to be under arrest or in jail to be strip searched . From your account , it seems you were not under arrest . <p> We would look forward to having a discussion with you , if you are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to you , and thanks for sharing your story . People need to know when this sort of thing happens -- not just the " facts " reported by AP , but the human side . Although yesterday was a solemn day of remembrance for those who lost loved ones 10 yrs ago , for the rest of us the media frenzy yesterday simply fueled this kind of xenophobic , paranoid hysteria . Ten years later , and we still have learned nothing . The Forever War , and the attitudes that fuel it , needs to end . <h> Mona <p> I am so , so glad you wrote about this experience , and so eloquently too . This incident that happened to you is like all of our unspoken fears come to life , for my husband and myself . We 're both of Indian origin ; he grew up in North America . He 's got a beard ( as do many professors ) but that 's the worst thing for profiling . He shaved it for the first time in his life on 9/12/01 but I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who we are at the end of the day , and should n't . Like you , I would have taken the pragmatic approach to flying on Sept 11 -- more security , more empty seats -- but never again . One of the reasons I am so glad that you wrote about this ( and in exactly the way that you did ) is because so many people would be too scared to write about it , too disempowered . I really wonder what those two Indian men must be feeling right now . I am so angry and upset on their behalf . As I was reading this aloud to my husband , I felt sick to my stomach and could barely get through it . Even now , my heart is racing . Thanks to Nicholas Kristof for posting it on Facebook . I 'm a total stranger to you but it would mean a lot to me if you , at some point ( as you can ) , wrote a follow-up . But take care of yourself , first and foremost . Thank you for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that we lost The War on Terror . We are terrorized ... and your Kafkaesque experience is just one more proof of that . I heard that we now have a million more people on " security " payrolls since 911 . All of those folks are watching US and not THEM . <h> Kush <h> Roz <p> How awful .... i am really sorry that u had to experience that . I often wonder about how a protest could bring attention to this issue . Makes me want to organize a group of little old ladies to don headscarves &; book a block of airline seats or s/t .... just to point out how unhelpful it is to discriminate based on appearance alone . God bless you for your own ability to forgive your captors . That is more strength than i have . <h> Michelle <p> I 'm very sorry this happended to you . I lived in NYC for 4 yrs and ca n't imagine a plane from there being detained like that . It 's such a diverse city . I hope that you are hearing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ feeling some reassurance . Ironic too , this situation and the title of your blog ( From the Heartland ) . In SF and NYC , we tend to think the midwest is a bit racist and backward and this does n't exactly dissuade from that ( likely erroneous ) perspective . <p> Get a civil rights lawyer and sue . You were detained without probably cause and handcuffed possibly this means " arrested " without " individualized suspicion . " Sue , sue , sue . Find others who suffered the same deprivation of your Constitutional rights and make it a class action . Let the federal government know that the people of this country are not going to tolerate law enforcement excesses like these and others . <h> Compassionate <p> So sorry to hear ! Please forgive me for being somewhat relieved that for once someone other than myself , my race , experienced what we , my race has experience and continually experience our entire life times . For once you may feel some compassion for how blacks are targeted and the prejudice we face on a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . I have always wondered what special quality allows blacks in America to live their lives with such grace under these circumstances . This ole white lady wishes you all the best . <p> That is so messed up I 'm disgusted by the way the US and UK ( and others ) has turned out 10 years down the line . <p> I travelled through London Heathrow at on Sept 4th and in security something set the metal detector off . I was then subjected to what can only be described as a sexual assualt and thorough groping ( although nothing like what you had to endure ) , followed a by a 20 minute long farcial inch by inch sweep over every part of me ( head included -- I mean , WTF ? ) with the hand held wand thing , they were satisfied that my wedding ring or perhaps a rivet on my jeans was not a threat to humanity . <h> Dede <p> Am really sorry to hear about your story . I follow the link from FB and I get here . As part @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ kind of treatment at the airport , though not with the full extent as yours . I am from west africa , far from brown and have a " funny foreign name " and hip replacement . I get X-Ray treatment , full body search , explosive search and enhance checked baggage search almost every time i travel . And I missed some flight . I travel like 6 to 10 times a year . I end up arriving early at the airport , and keeping it cool when going during this humiliating process . <p> Wish you all the best and again , keep faith in this country not in the broken system <p> Thank you , thank you for going public with this unbelievable horror story . I 'm dumbstruck . Yes , we were on edge yesterday . We 'll be on edge again . But something critical has to be done in the way of training and protocol to eliminate egregious situations like this . Wishing you all the best , and the comfort of your family and friends . <h> Then Again <p> While I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ went through I want to point out that you were not " racially " profiled it was your ethnicity ( not that that makes it a happy day ) , no one knew your religion , anti-Semitic feelings are not a result of 9-11 and you do you own fair share of " racial profiling " about the police . I 'm sure a parable about stones and glass houses or perhaps motes and beams applies here . <h> So Annoyed By All the Hype <p> This line , " I hated speedboats and shitty beer in coozies and fat bellies and rednecks " is racial profiling . Rednecks ? Really ? You were strip-searched , you believe , because of your skin color , yet you have absolutely no problem using the same tactics for stereo-typing . You 're probably doing this out of anger , but that 's me giving you the benefit of the doubt . Everyone is racist . ( Even though we use that term incorrectly . ) <p> Did the police officer who has no a/c every day at work say " but being @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the heat , " or is that you simply projecting ? Some of the side comments , like this one , are over-the-top and make you out to be very hateful against anyone who is n't you . It proves that you are no better than the person(s) who were afraid of you for what you looked like / how you behaved on that airplane . Even if you end your post with , " We should all try to get along . " The words fall flat . <p> I feel your rage and your humiliation , but I 'll take you getting profiled and searched any day over having something like 9/11 happen again . Oh , and I get profiled every time I go to the airport . I get the special treatment where they wipe my hands and my luggage handles / zippers to check for explosives . I am not of Middle Eastern descent . I was born in the USA . I have a boring English name . You are not the only one who has ever been profiled . I know you wo @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ freedom . <h> Sean <p> Anger is an excuse for malice , if it is temporary . But maliciousness is not acceptable as a default perspective on laws and justice in this country . I am sure if I got into a heated argument with some white redneck ( Hey , I 'm white too ! ) I would moan about how backwoods rednecks were the bane of my existence until it was out of my system . It is only human . I would eventually get over it and go back to not hating anything country or seemingly backwards . <p> This is in no way comparable to the passive racism that is built into our law enforcement agencies when they pull aside people for no other reason than they are brown . One is a tragedy , the other is merely regrettable ( I 'll leave it to you to sort out which is which . ) <h> Jessie <p> Lisa you ar so right . Absolutely NOT . We do not need to accept this gross violation of our civil rights granted to us in our constitution @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ airline ticket that you can be detained without reason and strip searched . Really people -- if you are an American learn your rights . The TSA can not strip search you or touch you unless you consent . As far as this incident is concerned I could MAYBE see being escorted off the plane , a pat down in private by another female , and questioning -- and that 's a real stretch when I say maybe . Under no circumstance was the strip search justified . Was she actually placed under arrest ? If not , they absolutely violated her rights . The strip search and cavity search was uncalled for and an absolutely vile and gross abuse of her civil rights . Let 's not forget she passed through screening prior to the outbound flight -- that means no metal objects detected , etc . Additionally she did n't blow up the plane in flight . This level of invasive body search was UNCALLED for PERIOD . Now think if you would be OK with this if it was your 12 year old daughter , your 62 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ grandmother . People you need to wake up -- we are headed towards a police state where ANYONE can be detained without reason , strip searched , locked up , etc. etc . Will another terrorist incident occur -- maybe so . I hope not , but our security , TSA specifically , is not effective . While I would absolutely hate to see anyone else killed by terrorists I hate even more the loss of our civil liberties . I want to cry about what we have become as a nation -- a country willing to trample what our forefathers fought so hard for -- all because we are a bunch of scared wussies. <h> return to sanity <p> Guess what ? I and Shoshana and everyone else have a constitutional right to call people ( yes- even WHITE people ) fat rednecks . We have a constitutional right to hate speedboats and country music . Nobody has a consitutional right to detain another american without the due process of law , nor the right to strip search another american without the due process of law . Shoshana is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the heck she wants to . They have no right to do what they did to her . <p> Wait , wait . " The price of freedom " is getting dragged off a plane into a cell , stripsearched and interrogated ? Would n't that be the very definition of " no freedom ? " <p> First you accuse her of lying about the last thing the cop said to her and then you accuse her of lying -again- when she says she wants people to get along . And why ? Because she 's justifiably angry ? Because she thought some uncharitable things , and dared to tell us that she thought them ? <p> If you think your post was reasonable , you need to grow a clue . Seriously . <h> Angi <p> " You are not the only one who has ever been profiled . I know you wo n't be the last . This is the price of freedom . " Based on your words , I do n't think you have a clue what the word freedom means . Or what privilege you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is not ? Please . <p> I 'm sorry to break it to you , but having your hands and luggage handles wiped is NOT on par with being handcuffed , being taken to an undisclosed location , not being allowed to contact your family , being strip and/or cavity searched , and having the minutiae of your life examined for no reason at all . Not even CLOSE . <p> And I found her remarks thought-provoking and even enlightening : Can you not see the lesson there -- that bigotry begets bigotry , hatred fosters hatred , prejudice sows and reaps more prejudice ? <p> Had the author encountered those same officers in another setting , I daresay their backgrounds would never have registered beyond a blip on her radar . But they were abusing their authority and she was the victim based on nothing more than her appearance , and her response was to think and feel -- however momentarily -- along the same lines . She felt anger and disgust towards those people . She was IN that situation because OTHER people feel ( ten years later @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the people behind the 9/11 attacks . And the ball just keeps rolling downhill , picking up speed ... <h> e <p> I think you are missing the point of why she wrote these things ... she was pointing out the own judgmental things that went through her mind during an ordeal that unless you have lived it , you can not pretend to understand or imagine . Later in her story she admits making these unfounded judgments ( which you 're right , we are ALL guilty of ) , and says that doing so is always a dangerous , bad thing . It does not make her words fall flat -- it gives them sincerity . She is not being hateful or holier-than , she is being human . I would like to say that I wish some of the people writing ignorant , hurtful comments could understand that , but I have a feeling that those comments would find themselves to horrible stories like this no matter the circumstances . <p> How dare you or anyone else say , " I 'll take you getting profiled and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " ? Of course NOBODY wants anything even close to what happened on that day again , but stripping innocent people ( and American citizens ) of their rights based on racist paranoia and fear will not stop that . All that does is fuel more unnecessary hatred and make injustices like this seem OK . Unless you have been in her shoes , you can not pretend to understand what she experienced because you have to have your hands wiped down before you board a plane -- the comparison alone is ridiculous . And who are YOU to decide what is acceptable for another to go through so you can feel a false sense of " security " ? <p> Also , does n't the irony of the " freedom " awarded by incidents like this ever cross your mind ? I think any argument for " freedom " here is absolutely unrecognizable . <h> Liz <p> No , this is NOT the price of freedom , because it DENIES freedom . What is wrong with you people who consider what she was subjected to to be mere " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? ? Is it possible that anyone can be so stupid ? ? ! She was thrown into a prison cell and STRIPPED SEARCHED ! ! Do you not get that ? ? If you are willing to go along with this happening to your FELLOW CITIZENS , then you are willingly giving up the freedoms you falsely claim to cherish . This is not protecting our freedom , this is attempting to ensure our physical safety -- and it is failing at that and succeeding at eliminating our freedom . <h> Sharroot <p> Hmmm .. my dictionary defines race as " a group sharing the same culture , history , language , etc. ; an ethnic group " . This lady was the victim -- she was cuffed , dragged off the plane , thrown in a cell , stripped , and cavity searched with no explanation . If she had a negative THOUGHT about the people doing it to her and wrote about it , it hardly constitutes as throwing stones ! <h> Josh <p> I am so sorry that you went through this ordeal . I love @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ am extremely disheartened whenever I hear that we 're not living up to our ideals . Unfortunately , it happens more than I would like . Your story greatly personalized the dichotomy , and that we still have n't fully worked through it yet . I hope that we do better by you , your family , and the 50 other " similar situations " that happened yesterday the next time . <h> Ibrahim Yousif <p> I 'm an Arab male , and if I was flying on 9/11 I would EXPECT to be treated that way , and be happy about it . What 's the big deal ? That stuff happens ALL the time to me , and I understand . . . and I do n't feel that ANY of my rights are taken away . If you 're not doing anything wrong ; they will let you go soon enough . THIS GIRL JUST WANTS ATTENTION ! " Oh , I had to pee sooo bad ! " . . . spoiled brat . . . <p> Ibrahium- I completely agree ! ! ! ! ! @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so glad that you spoke out . I am appalled and would like if maybe everyone could stop the drama and focus on whats important . I would want to be stopped-Id feel better about our secuirty . I am sure if those two men were doing something .. and the FBI wasnt around-she 'd be complaining <h> Alison <p> Thank you for speaking out about your experience ! I was directed here by a friend and I 've shared this with my Facebook friends . I 'm horrified by what you endured and by the larger implications it means for every American . <p> We 've traded our 4th amendment rights for a pottage of crap . The Patriot Act and the TSA are nothing but un-Constitutional power grabs dressed up as security theater . I 'm so sorry you had to endure what you did . <h> Jerry Lambada <p> I am sorry this happened to you , but you blew a great chance to make a statement . Calling people " fat Jada Pinkett Smith " , middle aged white cop , and profiling said individuals as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not support your claims about what you believe . Yes , you will justify it by saying you were angry about your treatment , but they were angry about 9/11 , same difference . Pot , meet kettle . So , you can count 9/11/11 as not only the day you were treated poorly , but also the day you failed at becoming any kind of a credible blogger . <p> I left a similar comment . Prejudice 's run rampant in all ethnicity's.I was surprised no one else made any comments about the rude statements in this post . Saying she now hate 's rednecks and country music . Country music is one of the few genres that teach you to be kind and help your neighbors . Really she is no better herself than the cops who were forced to act upon suspicions whether they saw a threat or not . <h> e <p> I 'm pretty sure that since I 'm white , and I also hate rednecks , beer in coozies , speedboats , and country music , her dislike of those things -- especially when @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ traumatic experience -- does not make Shoshana " racist " . <p> Further , expressing in a blog that she had thoughts about how much she disliked those things does not exactly equate to being illegally detained because the guy in the seat next to her spent too much time throwing up in the bathroom . <p> When she refuses to hire someone based on his dislike of country music , THEN y'all can call her a prejudiced bigot . <h> CL <h> Thada <p> This is appalling . I am so sorry you and your seatmates were put through that . I hope you find a way to prevent this from affecting your feelings of safety for too long . Maybe a hypnotherapist or an NLP practitioner can assist you to reframe this incident to lessen its effect on your well-being over time . Best wishes . <p> Thank you for posting this . I 've shared it and really admire that you put this out there . <p> I do n't know whether to be angry at the system that did this or the extremists that made them @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it up very well when you said " We live in a complicated world that , to me , seems to have reached a breaking point . " As someone who just went through that and I 'm sure is dealing with the anger , it 's a remarkable thing to have that perspective . <h> Bailey <p> I am so sorry that this happened to you and you are a better person than me -- I would be raging mad and not so level-headed . Thank you for your account of what happened . <p> I hope you sue to at least find out who made the ridiculous complaint and what the complaint actually was . Maybe some good would come out of this if you could sit down with the person who made the complaint so the person understands the ramifications of racially profiling . A teaching experience . <h> Ben <p> I am a fat white man who likes beer and country music . I am horrified at how you were treated . <p> I take your story as another example of the nation I love having @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ The terrorist attacks of 9/11 do NOT excuse such reactions to whatever illusions of threats the authorities can think up . ( As a law-abiding citizen , I have had two of my own encounters with overreacting law enforcement in the past year. ) <h> sue patterson <p> This seems so wrong on so many levels . I hope you consult an attorney . I do not think they can STRIP SEARCH you , just because someone on the plane did n't like the color of your skin . I am not a lawyer , nor have I ever sued anyone in my life , but if that 's the language they understand , I 'd consider it . From one American woman to another , I am so sorry you had to endure this . It 's just horrible ! But I am truly grateful that you were able to write about it , so we could understand first-hand what is going on . <p> The world over , we 're letting governments get more and more control over our lives by letting them have laws that take away @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sad that those that are meant to serve us are turning into our masters in the name of " protecting " us . Terrible experience -- I hope you recover well enough to enjoy travel again . <h> Nelsene McGinn <p> A nightmare experience that no one should have to endure . We are no longer free in this country and it makes me very sad . I am so sorry you had to go through such an ordeal . I will share your story in the hope that things will eventually change and we will recover our freedoms . I hate to say that I am not very optimistic . <h> Mike <h> Robert Arthur <p> I am appalled at this . Each and every one of us should print this posting out , and send a copy of it along with a well worded letter to our congressman , and our senators , put them in envelopes , with a stamp and mail them , demanding that this agency be defunded and disbanded . They have made a mockery of airline security , they have abused , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ than we had a decade ago . Get them out of our pants and our airports today . <p> Senator Levin will be receiving a copy of my letter before the close of the week . <p> I only hope I can respond with as much dignity and grace as you when they come for me . <h> Longinus <p> Just wanted to congratulate you on a great blog post and let you know that you handled the situation with class and dignity . Americans need to hear that there is a true human cost to all this racial paranoia circulating around the country . Thank you for sharing your story and I hope it not only helps change some attitudes out there but brings you something positive in life . Best wishes in the future . <p> I am simply appalled at what this country has become . As a fellow American who did n't do everything in his power to fight the creation of this police state , I apologize for what you experienced from the bottom of my heart . <h> Margie <p> I am truly disgusted @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it would not happen in the rest of the world , but it has certainly made me think twice about ever visiting America with my half Persian children and I will certainly discourage them from ever visiting in the future . The funny thing is that my children have nothing to do with their Persian father , though they share his Persian last name , and are real little Kiwis ( we 're from New Zealand ) . This really disturbs me as I think of what could happen in the future to my kids . While everyone is so busy looking for middle eastern or dark skinned terrorists they may very well miss real threats to national security . How is it possible in 2011 for racism like this to exist ? The hysteria surrounding ' terrorism ' &; ' terrorists ' is outrageous . I hope that as many people as possible see this . So sorry that this happened to you ! <p> I am sorry this happened to you . The truly sad thing is this has happened before in American history . It was called @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ During that era people got accused and lost jobs by someone calling them a communist . Now go back and read the link but put terrorist or Muslim in place of communist . <p> I feel sorry for you , but you clearly have the confidence and mental fortitude to navigate life , so you do n't need much support . BTW you should always ask " am I free to go ? " And if the answer is " no " , demand a lawyer . It 's not safe to answer ANY question . <p> I feel far sorrier for the COWARD who reported you . They need to grow some balls , and stop being afraid . <p> No Ms. Berchtold , the public does n't want you to error on the side of caution . It wants you to do your job without the gross violation of civil rights . There were a 1,000 better ways to handle this situation that would have served the purpose of the individual and the greater good . If this is protocol , then game over . The terrorists have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your story as I was suppose to get on that plane and take it from DTW-DEN . I am sorry for the ordeal you had to endure . <p> The story as TSA/Homeland security seemed to be working from was that two people in the same row both independently spent 20 minutes in both of the bathrooms . Sounds a tad excessive and suspicious to me . I know when I go into an airplane bathroom I want to do is get out as quickly as possible . <p> Seems like you may have just been sitting in the wrong place at the wrong time . <p> Jeff your apathy is exactly how this country got to this level . Instead of being outraged and shocked by this treatment you chalk it up to " wrong place wrong time " cliche non-sense . You make excuses for the people who take power to the extreme . <h> brady <p> I feel sorry for being an American , after reading of this event . I wish I could have been there to call the paranoids out . Too many of us @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the right to be Americans . <h> auradis <h> Kim <p> I would never have been able to have kept my temper or held myself together as you did . I do n't understand how they had the right to ask you question or strip search ( ! ! ! ! ! ) you without telling you anything about what was happening to you or why ! No lawyer ? ? ? This is permissible in this country ? ? <p> I 'm floored . Also shocked and sickened by this . And so , so sorry you had to go through this . : ( <p> Because she was n't formally arrested . Until the police tell you the charge , you are n't technically " under arrest " . It is important to note that the police can detain you , usually up to 24 hours , without a charge . This is in order to conduct an investigation such as this . They also are n't required to advise you of your Miranda rights if they have n't charged you yet . If you feel that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ onus is on you to tell the police before answering their questions ... however , it can get tricky . Because you have n't been placed under arrest , it can be considered a crime to " hinder " an investigation by not answering their questions . In order to ensure that the police ca n't do this , it 's important to tell them " I have the right to remain silent " . Every question they ask , repeat that line as your answer . Whatever you do , do n't say anything snarky that the police can later claim you said to try and mislead them ( that 's also a crime ) . If you want an attorney present , then repeat the line " I have the right to an attorney " . It 's really important though that you say absolutely nothing else if that 's the route you want to take . As you can see though ... you 'll go home a lot faster if you just answer their questions . If you take the " I know my rights " route @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for a lot longer ( and , remember , attorneys are expensive -- you need to be destitute to get a free one ) . <h> pete.d <p> Yeah , it 's really awful when people know their rights and say so . We should definitely discourage anyone from learning what their rights are , and if they should accidently become educated , under no circumstances should they reveal that they know their rights . <p> After all , we would n't want to upset those law enforcement officers , would we ? They can be so darn fragile ! <p> A better response than " I have the right to an attorney " would be the more explicit , and more technically correct , " I am exercising my Fifth Amendment right to decline to answer questions without the advice of an attorney , and I am formally requesting the presence of an attorney . " ( Disclaimer : I am a paralegal , but not a lawyer . ) <p> However , as others have pointed out , one has to weigh the risks of making such a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ made the wrong call here . Like they tell rape survivors about their decisions to/not to fight back , " if you survived , then you made the right decision . " <h> Chucky <p> Charles , your understanding of the constitutional requirements under the " Miranda case seems somewhat limited . a person can not be required to answer any questions when detained by the police ( With or without being informed of charges ) . They are supposed to be advised of their rights whenever they are questioned while being detained . refusing to answer when you are detained is a right , not a crime . <h> Carey <h> ruth <p> I 'm very sad to hear of your experience . It 's unfortunate that three strangers with physical appearances that reveal an " other " ethnicity and happen to be sitting next to each other is interpreted by some as " suspicious . " I , too , believe that the terrorists have gained some by instilling a level of racial , cultural and religious ( whether perceived or real difference ) intolerance that has not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hope for the day that this chapter in our history comes to a close , and the racism and intolerance that has been an ongoing knee-jerk reaction to the acts of a specific group on Sept. 11 are put in perspective ... and that those who 've been given some power and authority through public trust do the responsible things to put it into perspective and make things right . Sometime I wonder if we 'll ever learn , though , if we 're unable to look back at the nation 's past experiences -- the marginalization and genocide of Native American tribes , African slavery , imprisoning of Japanese Americans in concentration camps , and so many more chosen treatments of large groups of people -- is this just who we are ? During the VietNam War I was born , it ended when I was 9 . But even as a little girl , half-Filipino ( my mom obviously full ) , because my siblings and I looked enough like we were Vietnamese , other kids from some neighborhoods called us " Frenchie " ( for French Indochinese @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I hate war so much . For those who have the physical appearance of an " other , " you are often made to feel ugly , dirty , at fault , unwelcome ... in your own home . I 'm sorry this happened to you . I hope your story makes people remember who we are at our best . <h> JAlmos <p> There 's nothing more to say than to express how sorry I am that this happened to you and that I hope every single one of our fellow countrymen will see this , know the injustice of it and seek to act on it . <p> This really bothers me . I do n't want to live here anymore . This is not peaceful or free country . What , we can be detained now , because some other person is bothered by our appearance , without evidence of any wrongdoing ? Are you kidding me ? <h> Japheth Ross <p> I 'm terribly sorry that you have personally witnessed the indirect intended effect of terrorism . As a fellow American resident , I 'm happy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Security and understand the difficulties encountered in the process but yet dismayed at the racial profiling prevalent in these undertakings . I applaud you for keeping a sound judgement in all this saga but ashamed that our freedom and security is attained by violating the rights of people such as yourself simply by their appearance . You wrote , " You understand why we have to do this , right ? It 's for our own protection , " she told me. -- Two wrongs do n't make a right . Until the day Americans are free of bigoted assumptions , the patriot act should be abolished and replaced with a humane policy that serves protection to every American equally without comprising the civil liberties of others . Until then , it would be wrong and insulting for some , to say that the Homeland Security has kept us safe since that fateful day of 9/11. <h> ken <p> Before the so-called " PATRIOT " Act , this event would have provoked rage across the country ; the perpetrators would be fired and their agency sued ; Congressmens ' telephones @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ engenders sympathy for the victim and excuses for the perpetrators ? The terrorists with a little help from bin Laden and his ilk have won . <p> I 'm sorry this happened . I 'm sorry for some people 's reactions . And I thank you for your calm , your composure , and your willingness to share . No one should be judged by their appearance , or put through what you went through . Thank you for your courage to share . <h> John <p> Maybe I missed it , but did they read you your rights or were you not officially detained ? Easy for me to say , as it was n't me , but you should have refused to answer until you had been read your rights and had a lawyer . <h> John Hopkins <p> Thank you for sharing your story . As an anglo male I 'm fairly unlikely to be forced to undergo the indignities you suffered . Reading your account made me feel sick and humiliated for what my country , the " land of the free " I grew up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ best as you seek to regain your balance . <h> Chris <p> sorry to hear about this , Shoshana . I am from Metro Detroit . Most of us are pretty awesome . I have my suspicions that the person who " reported " you and your seatmates are probably not from here , because you resemble just about 1/4th of SE Michigan . In fact , you look a lot like an old friend of mine ! I am glad you are home safe with your family and I hope you do n't think we 're a bunch of assholes . <p> I 'm so sorry you had to go through that . At the same time I saw some prejudice 's of your own in your post though . You repeatedly mention how fat everyone is . Even the kind officer who did n't want to strip search you . How you hate " rednecks " not all rednecks are backwoods racist a-holes . The term originated from men who work outside and because of that their necks are sunburned . You hate country music ? Why because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your rights were violated but that is no reason to turn that hate on others . I would be very upset in your situation also , I am Jewish on my mother 's side so do n't think it 's coming from someone who does n't understand at all . You are writing about equality and not judging people yet that 's what you did through your post . I 'm surprised no one else noticed , I guess your right , people are blind to prejudice 's now . <h> Eloisa Perez-Lozano <p> Hi Shoshanna ! I have n't really kept in touch since grad school , but I saw this link on Patti 's Facebook and I thought it might be yours . I 'm so sorry you had to go through this . I do n't know how you kept your cool through it all , but I respect you so much for all you endured . I hope you do seek legal counsel about this because this was completely violating your rights no one deserves that ! ! ! <p> I am sick to my stomach @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 'm surprised that this was allowed to happen to you , but I 'm not . And that makes me angry . This is America , Land of the Free and Home of the Brave . Or it used to be . Now I 'm not sure what we are , but Free and Brave are not it . <h> Lucas Neill <p> Shoshana , I do feel sorry that you had to undergo such a terrible experience but can you actually blame the authorities for racial profiling on 9/11 when there 's so much tension in the air with talked of a credible threat ? The bad guys who conducted the 9/11 murders were all ' ethnic ' looking , UNFORTUNATELY . And , can I say , you are pretty disparaging in your description of the officers of the law even though , by your own account , they were professional and polite . <h> zack <p> Dear Shebshi , As a " I am truly disgusted that this happened to you . I 'm even more disgusted to read comment by hateful &; racisit individuals such as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ American ) I do n't know what that means Margaret Helmick , Jan &; Jay : as a naturalized citizen , As a law abiding citizen , as a Muslim &; as a US Navy Veteran I say shame on you . I ca n't believeI swore to protect racits like you Margaret Helmick , Jan &; Jay : as a tax payer , as a Moroccan Born man I say kiss my dark skin A

@@ Once again , thanks for sharing your story , One of the many I hear withing the Arab community <h> Niyati <p> I 'm appalled and horrified and enraged at this . Thank you for sharing this . <p> You 've written such a measured , sane account of it ... Salute ! <p> p.s . I 'm Indian and was profiled ( not as drastically ) once at De Gaulle airport ; and shrugged it off ... I joked later with my family that the powers that be thought that staid old boring me was a dangerous Mata Hari . <p> I do n't know you and I ca n't tell you what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ family , and you have to decide what is a priority for you . But as an American citizen OUTRAGED by what has happened to you , I hope that you , and others who are reading this , do n't let this go , do n't try to rationalize or defend the actions of the airline or TSA , and do n't stop making yourselves heard . This is how totalitarian states work . People are encouraged to report on their fellow citizens , innocent people are randomly branded enemies of the state , and everybody lives in fear of the midnight knock on the door . This is not East Berlin . This is not Tehran . This is not Pyongyang , This happened in Detroit , and that should make a difference . <h> a <p> This story tore me apart . I am from Michigan , and knowing I could someday fly out of Detroit makes me wonder what could they think of me ? Why do people plot others of a different ethnicity ? You clearly did nothing wrong , but we all know why @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ terribly sorry for what happened to you , and I hope that this was not just a bad experience , but a time for you to remember that everyone is the same , someone should not be labeled by race or gender , but should be accepted just for being YOU ! You seem like a wonderful person , and stay strong , and do n't dwell on the experience , just think down on those bastards who thought you were " suspicious " and hope that someday karma will come back and bite them on the ass . <p> i completely understand what you went through . I have quite a bit of Arab blood in my family and I do n't like traveling because of this . It makes it much more difficult to get on an airplane and although I 've never been detained like you have , it 's always been a major worry of mine . <p> Also , what they did is n't right . Some people just get paranoid and think they see things that do n't actually take place , and then @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ consequences of trouble in the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt . " -- Bertrand Russel <h> Your fellow citizen <h> Katrina <p> what happened to you is awful . However unfortunately people of similar ethnic background to you have been conspiring to kill innocent people , in the most cruel way . It is completely unfair on you , but you can not blame the general public of growing resentment towards the arabs . Not only do these people kill others , they kill their own kind too . Had there actually been 3 terrorists on the plane , everyone including you would be grateful for the action homeland security take . Terrorists do nt make themselves obvious , so how do you fight an invisible enemy ? ! There is only one way I can think of , by assuming that all people that fit the description are the enemy . Its a case of damned if you do , and damned if you do nt . Yes it violating , yes its racist , yes its not fair , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ terrorists travel around the country , i think so <h> s . <p> are you trained in identifying terrorists ? do you have any proof that racial profiling works ? are you aware that many of the biggest instances of terrorism in the united states have been carried out by people of similar ethnic background to WHITE people ? you appear to have considered none of these things . perhaps think a little harder before you post . <h> Katrina <p> s. , no one is trained in identifying terrorists , so how would you do it ? what is the alternative to racial profiling ? I think you are to quick with your insults , if I was writting an article on the topic maybe your argument would be valid , but my short post was to encourage an alternative view point , for people to see that this not just a racist attack on human rights , but the result of a serious wound inflicted on the american people , by people mostly of a middle eastern origin . I do nt deny that WHITE people can be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ would result in a thesis on sociology which is not an option here . But in the case of 9/11 and the wars in Iraq and Afganistan and the media portrayal .... the average person can not be blamed to be anxious in the presence of certain ethnicities. <h> s . <p> actually , they can be blamed . we call it racism . when terrorism that has happened in our country has been conducted by both people of " certain ethnicities " and by people who are white , yet you are only anxious in the presence of those people who do not look like you , that would be racism . <p> as to being trained to identify terrorists , that actually IS what some people are trained to do . if we were a wiser country , we might spend more dollars on that than on scrambling F-16s every time the " average " citizen becomes " anxious in the presence of certain ethnicities . " <h> Katrina <p> if we lived in Ireland at the time of the IRA bombings , I am sure we would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And then white males acting suspiciously would be held up for questioning . Its not so much racism , its stereotyping of groups in relation to threats these types of people have caused . If it was white women that flew those planes into the world trade center , and blew themselves us in markets in Iraq , then it would be white women that are always under suspicion . Yes , its wrong to be picking on a race just because they have blue or green or brown eyes , that is a violation . This is not what are talking about here . If a particular race is continuously responsible for certain threats , then all the people in that race will be stereotyped by their behavior , it just human mature . We are all guilty of stereotyping ie judging a person by their appearance . Unfortunately for the arabs , other arabs have inflicted serious wounds on the Western society in recent times . Until all the terrorist attacks are mostly done by whites ( which is not very likely to happen ) unfortunately we have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think that people should not be treated like this woman has . Detain for questioning yes . Being escorted of the plane at gun point and strip searched no . I would love to know what you solution to the problem would be . Before you start insulting people for their views , perhaps provide an alternative solution to the problem that works . I do nt necessarily agree with the method , but I do nt know what the alternative would be , so if its going to stop more innocent people dying , perhaps the stereotyping can be forgiven until the day that that type stops blowing people up . <h> Katrina <p> Whats your solution to homeland security Allison ? We can all preach human rights , but until we come up with a solution that captures terrorists without confusing innocent people of the same ethnic background , there is not many alternatives . You are right , we do nt actually feel safer . But at least we can not blame them for lax security and not taking reports of suspicious behaviour seriously . Who do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the arabs that crashed airliners into buildings on 9/11 ? Or maybe the media is to blame , perhaps we have to ask them to stop showing images of the people responsible .... because thats causing racism ? ! I had a similar experience . I have dark colourings and was questioned in Russia at the time arabs from Chechnya were blowing up residential buildings in Moscow . I completely understand why they questioned me and am not offended because they picked me out because of my dark hair . I totally agree that strip searching is going too far . I would prefer to be questioned every time , then have a school of children taken under siege by suicide bombers ( including women terrorists ) like it happened in Beslan killing 380 people , ever again ! <h> Allison <p> The " we must stop anything from happening ever again ! " feeling is understandable , but leads to the violation of Constitutional rights such as what Ms. Shebshi related . The fact that you personally were not offended is not a good enough justification to continue the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Sharing an ethnic background with terrorists does not make one a terrorist . If so , then white males should begin to be profiled since Timothy McVeigh was a white male , and the murdered of George Tiller was a white male , and so on . <p> There is a middle ground between having no security , and allowing someone 's Constitutional rights to be violated on the basis of unsubstantiated reports of unspecified suspicious activity made by untrained civilians who are then never held responsible for those reports if they are false . <h> EvilDevil <p> The terrorists win every time we let our fears dictate our behavior . This is appalling.After ten years we have been fooled into the idea that we need to give up what makes us American to keep us safe from " the enemy " . We deserve neither liberty nor security . <h> James Callaghan <p> I got to this from Kurt Busiek 's Twitter post ( via Lar deSouza ) . Ma'am , I 'm not American though I 've lived here for half my life , so I ca n't @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I could . As I am a white , hetrosexual male , maybe I can apologise on behalf of people who will never have to experience this kind of unmitigated nonsense . I assure you the words I want to use are far more profane and lengthily so . I do n't know if that 's worth anything , and it ca n't begin to make up for what you had to endure , but it 's what I have to give . I 'm ashamed and appalled that such things still happen . Not just in America , but on the planet . We should know better . I hope your eloquence here helps to bring about that awareness in others . <h> Mark Frazier <p> The paranoia and fear which has gripped this country has allowed Bin Laden to win . Those who were supposedly " protecting " citizens by this shameful treatment of this woman have played directly into Bin Laden 's hands . The question is , are we going to continue to allow fear , and Bin Laden , to rule our lives ? <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to throw up . Thank you for sharing this story . And thanks for the link to the news story . You were also followed by two F-16 fighters . We must do something about this . What , I do n't know . But we have to do something . Because like so many others have said , the terrorists have won . They 've succeeded in dividing us . <p> Why you should NEVER talk to TSA , Homeland Security , or the FBI in this situation : <p> Imagine this : Agent #1 interviews you . You give a full account . Agent #2 interviews you . You give a full account . But some minor , insiginificant details vary , as they would because memory is imperfect . <p> You have now told two " different " accounts to two federal law enforcement agents . You can be prosecuted under 18 U.S.C. Section 1001 for making a false statement to a government official . Farfectched ? Well it has happened to a number of Americans of Arab and Asian descent . <h> Ss <p> First of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to go thru . I feel like there is more to this story than what has been mentioned by you and by the news reports . There had to have been some kind of actions that would cause an entire plane of people and the crew members of this plane to feel some kind of suspicious activity was occurring by the individuals that were arrested including yourself . Also , you and your seat mates i am sure were not the only middle eastern/arab descent people on the plane so why single you and the 2 men out ? On a day of heightened security , its not a good time to test the system or draw attention of any kind towards yourself regardless of your ethnicity or nationality . The crew on this plane have flown hundreds of times and with many kinds of people and are well aware of the repercussions that can occur with accusations such as this . They must have had some reason or concern to call this issue in and thus deal with the consequences of themselves and the whole plane being delayed and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said and who is to be believed ? I would really like to hear what the other passengers on the plane had to say vs the words of the accusers and of the accused . The story is starting to become one sided and its hard to know who to believe anymore . I know security at airports has gotten out of control but its there for a reason . I would rather it be there than not be there and unfortunately these things are going to happen over and over again . What about the poor 90 yr old woman who was strip searched at security and was wearing an adult diaper ? She wasnt profiled in anyway and I am sure what she went thru was just as humiliating and offensive . Its everyone not just you . <p> I have often wondered if the " 90 year old white woman " strip search was n't done deliberately , specifically for the agencies involved to be able to say , " No we do n't profile , we randomly search everyone -- have n't you heard about the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mean , no WAY we would have selected her to search if it was n't completely random and we were n't totally following protocol to the letter ! " <p> As ridiculous and paranoiac as it is , that 's the only explanation I 've been able to think of that makes any sense . <h> What To Do ? <h> basspig <p> This whole situation is criminally tragic . It would not have happened if the US were the US of 1941 . We would have nuked Tehran , Saudi Arabia , Afganistan and maybe Iraq . Instead , America did n't rebuild the WTC , wallows in self-pity and " Chamberlain-esque " appeasement of her enemies . America , her last vestiges , are gone , as you have discovered . She was once the oak tree , but in the winds of Sept 11 , she snapped , only to reveal that the inside was a blackened , rotted hollow . <h> M <p> Might want to remember that when Japan attacked the US . They attacked military targets . <p> When the US bombed Japan -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the only country in the world to use nuclear weapons against noncombatants . <p> The US of today might not have gone that far , but it went places that are not a point of pride , have not made anyone safer , and in fact , have done the opposite . <p> Many of the United States allies are now gunshy of cooperating with American security and law enforcement agencies because of the practice of Rendition . They have to weigh the chance of their citizens being arrested and deported to countries where they will be brutalized against the possibility that citizen might be a terrorist bearing ill will against the US . <p> It 's only a matter of time before one of those agencies withholds information that actually does turn out to be legitimate and something happens . <p> When it does , the US has only itself to blame for the way it 's treated innocent people . <p> As bad as that is , and it 's bad enough , if they 'd ' taken the 1941 ? option as you so quaintly put @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . All of those countries would be justified in taking military action against the US as would their allies . <h> Ian <p> Well , NOBODY in WWII comes off well by modern standards . Civilian targets were the primary targets of EVERYBODY . Japan slaughtered civilians by the thousands in China and Korea , Germany rained death from the skies over London for 76 nights straight , killing thousands , the United States killed more-or-less the entire population of Dresden , and did n't leave two bricks on top of each other , and killed even MORE people in Tokyo . It was a brutal , brutal war . <h> Ian <p> The US of 1941 which considered Germany a " European problem " and fought against the " Lend-Lease " program as getting overly involved in an issue that did n't involve us ? The Republicans who fought against FDR every step of the way ? A United States so passive and uninterested in the outside world that the Japanese government had reason to believe that they could freakin ' attack Hawaii , and , because it was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? <p> In many ways , we 're better today than we were then . There was moral reason for the United States to intervene as early as 1936 , certainly by 1939 . And it was absolutely immoral not to do anything against the Blitz . Yet we stood idly by until we were personally attacked . <p> And yet , this year , we offered air support to Libya , to help overthrow a dictator , even though he was one who had been supportive of the United States at times . <p> We should neither over-romanticize the past , nor be too dismissive of today . To state that we are over , and doomed , is to give into despair . <h> Laura Cook <p> Shoshana , so sorry to hear that this happened to you . It 's unbelievable and upsetting that ignorance is still so prevalent in our country . As noted in previous comments , it seems that the terrorists have won , in a way . I hope that you can understand , however , that the police were ( seemingly ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ could have been more considerate ) . I can not empathize , but sincerely hope that nothing like this ever happens to you again , though unfortunately , that possibility is not unlikely . <h> Alex <h> Jamie N <p> My little Shoshi ! ! ! Even after all these years of sporadic communication my motherly protective instinct to save my 14 year old ( this is how I still see you ) friend took over while reading your ordeal . I wish I could of been there for you . I wish I could of done something right after for you . I am so glad the boys were not w/ you and I am very proud of your conduct and your willingness to write about it . You and hubby will be in mine and Toms prayers for closure in this matter . I love you and miss you ! ! ! <h> Meme <p> Have you heard anything from Frontier after this ? At the very least , an apology and refund would be in order . Giving their employees a refresher course in what constitutes " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . <h> marlys <p> One little thing : Unless I missed something , I 'd change " watch stealer " to " accused watch stealer " throughout . I guess watch stealers are a bit more common that , oh , terrorists but not only was he not convicted of watch stealing , who knows if there was any reason for the accusations . In most articles , the casual " watch stealer " would n't matter , in this context , of course , it does . <p> According to the AP report : " Frontier Flight 623 , with 116 passengers on board , landed without incident in Detroit at 3:30 p.m . EDT after the crew reported that two* people were spending " an extraordinarily long time " in a* bathroom , Frontier spokesman Peter Kowalchuck said . " * Note : TWO people in A bathroom . In addition , the blogger says that she did n't go to the bathroom during the flight , let alone spend " an extraordinarily long time " in one . I 'd say she has a reasonable civil tort @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ her . Or , someone overreacted and included her in out of stupidity . Do n't they need a legitimate complaint to seize and question her ? Lots of troubling questions here about who gave whom the authority . <p> The other is , I believe , poetic license , which should not have entered the picture : Blogger says she was given her cellphone while still in her cell , but she did n't know what time it was when she walked out of the building , presumably with cellphone in her possession . <p> My subconscious proofreading eye also found " Perhaps it was two Indian man going to the bathroom in succession ? " Man should be " men " -- sorry ; OCD . <p> Otherwise , this was very well-written , and definitely well enough for me to subscribe . <h> Joey <p> Ten years later , and what have we learned ? To cower as as security color warnings change ? To glance suspiciously at our fellow Americans seated next to us ? We were once proud to call our country a melting pot @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their own breed of terrorists . <h> Vivian Chan <p> Well , if it was me and the same thing happened and later I found out that even just 1 of those 50 other phone calls or " shadows " proved to save the life of some others , I 'd thank those people that did their job ! <h> pete.d <p> Well , bullshit . There is not enough wealth and resources on the planet to ensure the safety of every single human life . That means we have to balance cost and benefit , along with realistic evaluations of risk . <p> This incident came down 100% on the wrong side of that equation . <p> In any case , it turns out that NOT ONE of those " 50 other phone calls or ' shadows ' " proved to save the life of anyone . So not only do these reactions come down on the wrong side of the analysis , they are examples of an infinitely wrong analysis based on the ratio of cost ( non-zero ) to benefit ( zero ) . <h> t <h> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ story and bringing even more light to the real human impact of our country 's paranoia and inhumane treatment Americans like yourself face in the name of " security " . My heart goes out to you . <h> Sharroot <p> Wow ! So exactly what was the suspicious behavior again ? Just because some passenger with an overactive imagination says " ooo ooo I 'm scared " should n't mean that the authorities have to react to it ! If one of my kids thought there 's was a monster in the closet , I would n't t show up with a flack jacket and a bazooka to check it out . This is so sad . And definitely racist . We 've got to get rid of the ridiculous patriot act . P.S. I 'm an old white lady . <h> Kiyoshigirl <p> This is bullshit , pure and simple . You were targeted because of the color of your skin , as were your seat mates . My daughter , a fair skinned , girl of Irish and Polish descent has a boyfriend who is of Indian @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ many different situations it is ridiculous . I truly hate to say this , but I sometimes worry that her life will be difficult if they get married and have a family . Will her husband constantly be the target of ignorant idiots ? Will she and their potential children needlessly suffer because her husband and their father is targeted ? I hate this . All of it . <h> Ocean <p> Shitty policy . There has to be a way to protect the liberties of people that does n't involve violating the liberties of those same people . It 's a brute force solution to a problem that requires not brute force but intelligence to solve . <h> Detroit resident <p> I hope you 've found some comfort now -- with your family and friends , in the arms of your husband . Historically , Detroit has been a flashpoint for violence along socioeconomic and racial lines . This situation fits right into that context -- as an arbitrary , mean , and disproportionate treatment reserved for the " hated hues . " It 's also outstanding that you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Detroit , as your inspiration . Your story renews and breathes new life into his struggle and his principles . And lastly , my understanding of patience in the face of hardship has deepened because of your narrative . You 're a gifted communicator , and I hope that helps you heal not just your wounds , but the open wounds of our entire nation . Shalom , salam , peace . <h> John <p> obviously you have never actually been in real trouble with the cops . Outrage ? Indignities ? Jiminy Christmas , so what , you were taken off a plane and checked out , good for the authorities that they take reports seriously . Consider yourself lucky you were held in a holding cell in America , in most other countries you wouldnt have had a toilet . After a few hours you were released . You act like this is the worst thing that ever happened to anyone . What the hell has the country come to that people are such crybabies . You werent mistreated , you were questioned respectfully , and once it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and here you are acting like you are a victim of some sort . Personally I think you are blowing things way out of proportion and Im amazed at how many idiots are sympathizing with you . Wait til one of your family is ripped to shreds by a terrorist bomb and then cry why do n't ya . You want to be mad at someone be mad at the idiots who reported you , not the police who are doing a dangerous job to keep our skies safe . <h> Ninabi <p> Lucky ? Really ? And if her situation- taken off a plane in handcuffs and strip searched is not considered " real trouble with the cops " - what is " real trouble " ? I shudder to consider what else could be in store for American citizens who are cleared by the TSA to fly in an airplane , quietly . <p> Freedom in America should not be reduced to comparing the qualities our jails to those of other countries and coming to the conclusion that a flush toilet in lieu of a fetid bucket @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sorry this happened to the writer of this blog . I would be feeling lasting anger and a sense of powerlessness after such an ordeal . <h> Allison <p> Just because she was in America and not in a country where being detained means being raped and tortured does not make the events in this situation right . She has every right to complain about an illegal detention based on the lying report of a bigoted person . <p> We have laws in this country , laws that are supposed to be some of the most cherished ideals OF this country . One of them is the freedom from illegal searches and seizures . Another is the right to face one 's accuser . Both of those laws were violated in this instance . <h> pete.d <p> " You werent mistreated , you were questioned respectfully , and once it was determined you had done nothing wrong you were released " <p> All patently false . She was mistreated the moment that she was forcibly removed from the airplane in handcuffs , never mind strip-searched , etc . By definition @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ been , it would have occurred on the airplane , after the original witness had first been questioned , and before ( and without ) any of the subsequent harassment . <p> And perhaps she was released the moment it was determined she had done nothing wrong , but that determination should have come so much earlier in the process , the officers plainly fail the common-sense test that allows that eventual determination to be used as a defense . <h> Jack <p> You should post the names of the officers who harassed you , along with the names of any of the flight crew that you can get a hold of . Ultimately its the flight crew that made the decision to have you hauled off of the plane like that . Publicly shaming these people for their bigotry is the only way to change anything . <p> I recommend this site http : **35;6142;TOOLONG " The 1700% Project is conceived as a collaborative project utilizing art as intervention . Specifically , the 1700% Project strategically intervenes against the racial profiling and rise of violence and hate directed at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ monolithic stereotypes of a " Muslim " identity while acknowledging the significance of historical persecution . " <h> chris <p> Never been terrified of terrorists here . Never felt the need to have the government protect me . I am disgusted at the police state we 've evolved into . I blame the American people , for allowing this to happen . YOU believe the crap that is spoon fed to you . You drooled over the lies , and disinformation spoon fed you on 9/11 . Now we all must live with the consequences ! <p> Nice post let the world know . I am from India , and probably you can judge the following by reading the lines below . <p> I was travelling out of Wauwatosa International Airport in 2010 , for my flight to India , via St. Pauls . The check in luggage had been cleared , and I was going with my cabin luggage , when suddenly I was stopped . The lady said me that my name has been picked up " randomly " , and I need a stricter security check . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to find several clothes of mine . From that moment on , , I had thought to myself , maybe this " random " check was because I am an Indian , and this post from a US citizen , nails my belief . <p> I was denied a housing apartment when the house owner heard I was from India , she just hung up . <p> Though I am not a a Muslim , just wanted to let you know , that Muslims working on Research and Patents at Harvard / MIT need to go an extra mile ( maybe wait one to two months more ) for renewing this visa . <p> All of the above are my personal experiences , and I have witnessed it . <p> Thank God you got through this event with out further infringement on your civil rights , although it seems people of a certain color have few whether it is 9/11 or not . How do we regain the rights that MLK died while trying to secure ? Did we ever have them ? <p> So sorry for your ordeal and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of Detroit post 9-11 . Having re-patriated from Saudi , I found my favorite Middle Eastern restaurants flying American flags and the owners reporting no abuse or drop in business . The Arab Americans in the metro area being so well established , acceptance seemed universal of these citizens , immigrants who in Detroit help revitalize . I felt prejudice against Muslims was very low compared to Phoenix &; other cities . Middle Eastern restaurants went out of business in Scottsdale solely because of 9-11 . A Sikh gas station owner was murdered in Phoenix by ignorant racists . <p> But let 's not forget " driving while Black " and the ordeals that take place there . Being pulled over on the e-way by a dozen police cars at gun point because you resemble a bank robber who is 30 yrs younger , and detained there on your knees in the heat , handcuffed , hoping your neighbors do n't drive by . Or my Mexican girlfriend going to Kinkos , having raw eggs thrown at her and the most vile things screamed at her . Many in this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ignorance . Many are proud they only speak " American " and know no other languages . We have a culture that glorifies ignorance , and it is these people who cause trouble . Just like that monster in Norway who may have had a PHD , but was so filled with hate it cancelled out any brains he ever had . <p> Everybody join your local Kristof Reader Meetup and we try to create a world without hate . <p> I 'm sorry . I 'm so angered and saddened by what happened that that is all I can muster . I 'm sorry . I 'm sorry this happened to you . I 'm sorry that people continue to spread hate and bigotry on this post . I 'm sorry that this is what it means to be American : to spread hate , paranoia and fear . I 'm sorry . I 'm going to go and hug my children and do the best I can to teach them not to hate and fear others based on ethnicity so that this can not happen to others in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sorry this happened to you . I am not a fan of suing people , but I think you have a real case here . This goes beyond questioning- no one should be forced to remove their clothing in the presence of strangers or locked up without evidence . If you need financial support I 'd be glad to donate what I can , along with many others . <h> Vivian Chan <p> " I am not a fan of suing people , but I think you have a real case here . " -- -- Sure the security personnel for doing their duty to respond to a call . What if you had family members on one of the other planes with a similar call and nobody responded , and it DID have plotting people on it ( maybe they were carry articles of a weapon to use later ) <p> " no one should be forced to remove their clothing in the presence of strangers or locked up without evidence . " -- - What evidence would you want a terrorist to have . If there was evidence @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ land or injected into a building . Are you looking for a t-shirt that says " I have something hidden here " or maybe you are just clueless ? <p> " If you need financial support I 'd be glad to donate what I can , along with many others . " -- - Ahh , the answer to my previous question about having a clue has been answered in full . Nice job . <p> I am so sorry . I wish folks would stop with the profiling already . And another thing , what is this with saying folks who have to go to the bathroom during a flight are possibly dangerous people ? Leaves me to wonder , if going to the bathroom is also suspicious behavior , then I too should never fly again . I have a bladder disease that causes me to make frequent trips to the bathroom . I just do n't get it . How can use of bathroom equate to dangerous ? It is bad enough folks have to be molested to get on board , now if they are a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dangerous or suspicious ? People need to get a grip . The problem is not skin color or place of birth or religion , or how many times someone visits the toilet . The problem is that we are a scared people that are willing to give up all of our liberties to feel safe to those that may not have our best interests in mind . <h> Po <p> Thank you for this . I sincerely appreciate your relating your experience so that others can learn . It is unforgivable and you have my support . This is not the America it should be and frankly , I 'm ashamed . <p> I am horrified and angry . I ca n't believe that things like this happen in the USA . This is not the country I grew up in . <p> I have n't flown for years , and I have no intention of ever flying in the future . I do n't want to be patted down , touched , by some stranger , or have my body exposed to a " scan " that sometimes make @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ strangers going through my luggage , although that 's less offensive but I am concerned about theft . I 'll take a train or a bus before I get on a plane again . <p> The previous commenter is correct : The terrorists have won . <p> Benjamin Franklin said that " Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety , deserve neither Liberty nor Safety . " We 're over that precipice , and it makes me ill to think of it , to live it . <p> Great account of what happened ! Makes you wonder about who is instilling terror &; fear in the people . America is not a place I will visit anytime soon , it scares me . Sorry you had to endure such nonsense , Trouble is you ca n't fix this shit it 's just getting worse . Feel the Love ! <p> The fact that this horrible thing happened to you does not suprise me at all . I live in Australia and this week on television during the media build up to Sept 11 , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . One in particular sickened me quite a bit , a rather old senile looking ' authoritive ' figure said something along the lines of ' this september 11 , if you even look like a terrorist -- you will be investigated ' or some such similar nonsense . Immediately in my mind I thought , that any person not fitting the ' white ' mould , was going to have a really crappy day . After reading this posting , boy was my initial feeling right -- although I am truly sorry that it was . I was really sickened by what the ' authoritive ' figures did to you and I sincerely hope you never experience anything so degrading to your person , ever again . It is stuff like this that really leaves me questioning the small minded morons of the world . <p> A grotesque injustice . It is imperative that a president is elected who opposed the Patriot Act and all of the violations that have followed from the aftermath of 9/11 , not to mention the appallingly brutal and counterproductive wars . I leave @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bill . <h> richs-lxhrich <p> Somebody just posted a link here from Google + I am shocked and saddened at what has happened to our society . In Europe and the US we claim to have democracy and to be free and civilized , while attacking other countries for civil-rights abuses and and a lack of democracy . What hypocrisy . We are all being controlled , we have no rights . What happened to this poor woman is disgusting , sickening even , in the so called land of the free . I really hope that this story goes viral . People need to see this . <h> David <p> Very sorry to hear that you had to go through this , what an unpleasant and frightening experience . <p> Nonetheless , the only person that has done wrong is the passenger who , perhaps due to their own personal prejudices , alerted authorities that you were acting suspiciously . <p> The security response -- though heavyhanded -- is one that I would expect , especially on the anniversary of Sept 11 and I and millions of others are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ suspicion , especially aboard a plane , must be investigated . That is simply the way of the world now and if people want to keep using aircraft they will have to put up with it . <p> Can you imagine if three people who really WERE going to blow up the plane were reported as suspicious by a passenger and the authorities decided not to take it seriously . And then the plane WAS blown up . The FBI and Homeland security etc would be hauled over the coals without mercy for their inaction . Their ' ineptitude ' would be splashed across the world 's papers . They are in a no-win situation where they are damned if they do , and damned if they do n't . <p> What you went through was not your fault . Neither was it the fault of the authorities . In the end it 's the fault of terrorists , extremists and fanatics who , through their terrible actions , have created the world we now live in . <h> J <p> One small flaw in your logic . If a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that plane -- why would they wait until the police boarded to blow it ? <p> You could make the argument that MAYBE they were actually going to blow a connecting flight ( ignoring the part where they 'd have to pass through security again and , thus , increase the chances the device might be discovered ) but it does n't seem all that likely . <h> pete.d <p> " Nonetheless , the only person that has done wrong is the passenger who , perhaps due to their own personal prejudices , alerted authorities that you were acting suspiciously . " <p> That really depends on what that passenger actually reported . <p> If the passenger reported genuinely suspicious activities , then yes ... they are the only one who has done wrong . And they should be prosecuted for submitting a false report to the police . <p> If on the other hand , as I suspect , they simply identified the three as being " suspicious " and law enforcement took it from there , then it 's very far from the truth that only the original @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ involved are completely culpable , for failing to protect the civil rights of the three and for overreacting to the report . <h> John B. Mordecai <h> What To Do ? <p> I think she 's looking for a book deal and will get it with so many sympathizers . And , everyone keeps telling her to sue . Well , guess whose pockets that is going to come out of . I was quite saddened to see that our local newspaper had a spread about the local Muslim 's after 9/11 ( on the front page ) and on the 3rd page was an article about one of the helicopter pilots that was killed in Afghanistan . So sorry , but we are trying to show the world that we love everyone , that we are forgetting about the men and women who have put their lives on the lines for us so that all of us can add our little opinions and comments to this post . <h> Allison <p> Do not sully the memory of the people who have died fighting for our freedoms by invoking them @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . You do their sacrifice a disservice when you do so . Our right to disagree with our government is fundamental to this country , and we do n't have to give it up because people died " for us . " <h> M <h> CNelson ( NZ ) <p> Amazing post , thank you for writing about this in such detail ; everyone should know what is going on . I am so sorry this happened to you . It breaks my heart that fear still rules . Strangely , the fear of someone on that plane ( their fear of terrorism -- which in their mind must look like foreigners on a plane ) took precedent over the fear of you and the two men who were taken away and mistreated . Why were you allowed to be genuinely frightened , because of someone else 's fearful suspicions ? This itself is proof that the world we live in is NOT ok . We have not advanced to a better place in ten years . We are all living in fear -- whether a fear of terrorism , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ abused for looking a certain way or being from a particular part of the world . We should not be segregated by this , and yet we are . Only more information and a better understanding will help -- I believe your post is a part of that . <p> Reading this from the comfort and sanity of Australia , I am horrified at what you endured . The events of what happened ten years ago were truly horrible but the stories that we keep reading of the level of paranoia in the US are likewise

@@5134341 <h> The saint who believed he was ' a plague-spot in soul and body ' <p> Vincent Ferrer ( c 1350-1419 ) was a Dominican friar who became celebrated throughout western Europe for his preaching . He also played an important part in ending the papal schism between Rome and Avignon . <p> In addition , he gained a reputation for the conversion of Jews and Muslims . <p> Vincent Ferrer was born in Valencia , the fourth child of an Anglo-Scottish nobleman called William Ferrer , whose wife , Constantia Miguel , was a kinswoman of the Bishop of Valencia . <p> The family , having distinguished itself during the Reconquista of Spain from the Muslims , became dedicated to religion . Vincent 's younger brother , Boniface , would be prior at La Grande Chartreuse . <p> Vincent himself entered the Dominican Order at 17 , and at 21 was already teaching philosophy at Lerida . Ordained in 1374 , he became prior of the Dominican house in Valencia five years later . <p> At some stage he fell in with Cardinal Pedro de Luna , an Aragonese nobleman who in 1393 , during the papal schism @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was now at the apex of ecclesiastical power . <p> But while he had once been a keen supporter of the Avignon papacy , he also detested schism in the Church . Gradually he came to believe that Benedict was insufficiently anxious to restore unity . <p> No doubt in consequence , in 1399 the Pope sent his adviser on a prolonged preaching tour in western Europe . Over the next 12 years Vincent travelled in France , Savoy , Italy , Flanders and Sicily . He may even have visited England and Scotland . <p> In the pulpit Vincent chose to dwell upon the gloomier aspects of religion , such as the torments of hell and the urgent need for repentance . Not that he spared himself : " I am a plague-spot in soul and body , " he wrote . " Everything in me reeks of corruption because of the abomination of my sins and injustice . " <p> Huge crowds flocked to hear him , although it is by no means clear how they could have understood a preacher who apparently spoke only Limousin , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in 1414 Vincent vainly urged Benedict XIII to resign as anti-pope . More effectively , he persuaded King Ferdinand of Aragon to turn against the Avignon papacy , effectively forcing Benedict XIII to withdraw . So the unity of Christendom was restored . <p> The Jewish question , however , remains a blot on Vincent 's record . From the early 1390s he had determined that Judaism should be rooted out of Spain . <p> No doubt some Jews were honestly converted by his eloquence . His virulently anti-Semitic sermons , however , sparked riots in which thousands were killed . <p> In addition , Vincent was an active force behind the Ordinances of Valladolid ( 1412 ) , which imposed harsh restrictions ( albeit not always enforced ) upon the work and residence permitted to Jews -- a prelude to their expulsion from Spain in 1492 . <p> This entry was posted on Saturday , March 31st ,

@@5134441 <h> Could New Delhi be the city of India 's future ? <p> Spiraling inward : Connaught Circus ( officially Indira Chowk ) is the outer ring of Connaught Place ( now Rajiv Chowk ) and one of the rotating commercial centers of New Delhi . <p> The constant verbal sparring between Mumbai and New Delhi comes as no surprise to residents of either city . <p> Mumbai 's own split identity of cosmopolitanism and an historical threat of religious violence have been popularly reflected upon , in books like " Maximum City " and movies such as " Mumbai Meri Jaan " . <p> But who has done this for New Delhi ? Really sat there and pulled out the definitive threads in a book to make people sit up and take notice ? <p> Perhaps the average Mumbaikers ' apparent distaste for New Delhi arises from the latter 's inherent rebellion towards being understood . <p> I want to understand , so I sit in on a nostalgic May lecture called The Transformations of Delhi : India 's Capital at 100 , where some of New Delhi 's most prominent intellectuals speak about that which characterizes the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ writers , editors , researchers -- and a few interested expats . <p> But , the intellectuals argue , no creation of man can exist without pattern : even in dispersal and chaos there is repetition . <p> These themes represent the closest we can get -- while we live in it -- to understanding the idea of Delhi and New Delhi , one of its nine districts . <h> Nostalgic New Delhi <p> Dilliwallas find a sense of belonging by romanticizing the gardens and old monuments which exist in a time passed , incongruous with the aggressive world outside their gates . <p> This disjunction in time exists in the classification of roads in Delhi too , claims Farooqi . <p> The names of roads bear no semblance with their locality and are instead isolated within biased definitions of those that contributed to India 's creation , and recreation . <p> As opposed to Paranthe Wali Galli in Old Delhi or Marine Drive in Mumbai , New Delhi 's Aurungzeb Road or Connaught Place 's new avatar as Rajiv Chowk , for example , are simply historical tags imposed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <h> Metropolitan New Delhi <p> The single contemporary pride , as opposed to its obsession with its past , is the newly built Delhi Metro Rail which converges inwards to the center or projects outwards from the center , depending on the way you look at it . <p> It allows for a previously flat , dispersed city to travel both below and above ground , above the roads , flyovers and trees , for a new view . <p> The metro is a mechanical metaphor for the essence of Delhi -- a blurring between the edges of the city and its center , like a small base with a large outer rim , and a crack traveling through . <p> The Delhi Metro extends all the way to Dwarka in the west , allowing for much of the city to be viewed from above . <h> Delhi as a spiral <p> Like a cyclone burgeoning from its calm eye , Delhi exists as a spiral , both geographically and culturally , the pundits say . <p> William Dalrymple theorizes that whilst central Lutyen 's Delhi , inhabited by the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the outskirts of the city are densely-populated and ripe with activity . <p> In contrast , cities around the world are most vibrant in their central squares and circles . <h> Delhi as a pendulum <p> This shift in its North and South borders mimics the to-and-fro movement in the consciousness of the city . <p> Kesavan attributes Delhi 's as a history of " getting away " , characterized by a middle class aspiration to shift habitat with economics and hope . <p> The locomotion between the old and new , between the already decayed and the modernized , is relentless . <p> The spiral becomes a pendulum -- circulating to and fro , a linear left and right movement in a circular city : a pattern in dispersal . <p> The 1984 Republic Day parade near Parliament in New Delhi . Lutyen 's Canopy is at the center , emptied of its King George Vth statue post-independence . <h> The future of New Delhi <p> Despite this existential quality to the spirit of Delhi , moderator Farooqi closes the discussion by predicting New Delhi as the city @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , intellectual and durable . <p> The statement elicits proud and slightly shocked murmurs and a few hisses . But what if it were true ? <p> Does New Delhi 's essence exist in its freedom to assume any character , once a spiral , once a pendelum , timelessly and simultaneously becoming its own past , present and future ? While Mumbai has had to endure the pressure of too many millions on one narrow strip of land

@@5134541 <h> Sep 28 , 2012 <p> The analysis of the inflationary process clearly shows who are the winners and who pay for the bonanza stemming from the presumed cornucopia of the central bank 's money-creating mechanisms . Picture credit : Wikipedia <p> I originally intended to discuss the workings of ( crony- ) capitalist Quantitative Easing in the U.S.A. , Japan and the UK , but fellow blogger and economist Vuk Vukovic has already done so in a series of posts , which I would certainly recommend to any one reading this article . Thus I need not proceed into an assessment of these policies , their particularities and their likely impact . Instead I find it appropriate to distance myself , for this one time , from the political events related to the subject , the outright currency wars and " we-they " syndromes they engender , so as to focus on the mechanics of the inflationary process as such . The subject I will delve in is slightly more academic and theoretical than the occasional analyses on the expected or desired effects of a monetary expansion , yet it can provide , I think , a very @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ appreciating their sociopolitical ramifications , in as far as cronyism , corporatism and bottom-up redistribution of wealth , resources and power are concerned . <p> The mainstream of the economics discipline continues to think of the inflationary process along the lines of the quantity theory of money , as the latter was originally developed by the Salamancan Scholastics and the polymath Nicolaus Copernicus . While economists in our day are much more sophisticated than the late medieval thinkers , in as far as appreciating the fact that an increase in the supply of money may not necessarily result in generalized increased prices ; contemporary scholars have nevertheless failed lamentably to escape from the largely unrealistic set of assumptions concerning the process of a monetary expansion . Such a process was seen back then and is , to a great extent , still seen today as a universal , generalized , equilibrated , proportional , one-shot increase in aggregate magnitudes , such as the ' price level ' , which can be formalized in aggregative accounting identities concerning the economy as a whole . <p> While that view may be useful @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ exposed by an a posteriori evaluation of their alleged merits in juxtaposition to the actual facts , always to the extent that such " facts " can provide us with the approximate truth -- with myself as a praxeologist being highly skeptical about it -- ; it is nonetheless readily apparent that the explicit macroeconomic reasoning leaves much to be desired as to the qualitative effects and consequences of the inflationary process in the context of time . In short the standardized view of inflation completely neglects the impact a monetary expansion has on relative prices , the economic relationships between the varying classes of people who will gain access to the new money and finally the capital structure which is directly influenced , inter alia , by time-preferences , expectations and relative prices . <p> Moreover the mainstream account does not recognize the praxeologic axiom that all economic phenomena , all human action that is , take place in time ; meaning that as time passes , minor , yet significant , or occasionally drastic changes occur in the complex interweaving web of factors that influence an agent 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I strongly recommend Eugen von Bhm-Bawerk , Capital and Interest , as well as the towering masterpiece of Ludwig von Mises , Human Action ) . Mainstream thinking is primarily static , by drawing out the qualitative aspects of the time dimension ; or recognizes in the passage of time , ancillary changes to otherwise highly predictable trends . Hence the tendency to think of the inflationary process as a universal , aggregate expansion with symmetric effects across the board . <p> A more accurate understanding of the inflationary process would treat it as a series of incremental increases in the supply of money coming in consecutive waves over the passing of time , each with a particular and diverse set of benign or deleterious effects on the people that gain access to it depending on the relative advantage or disadvantage they have found their selves in , at the point when this monetary cascade was set in motion and then brought upon them . <p> To better appreciate this inflationary process I believe we need to go back to the founding father of modern economics , Richard Cantillon ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ happens , in the history of thought , for old knowledge to be swept aside and forgotten , not because of valid refutations , but due to shifts in the fashions of reasoning ( due to reasons that escape the purview of this article ) , making the progress of economic thought more of a zig-zag-back-and-forth pattern rather than a straight line towards a more profound understanding of the subject matter . <p> In his magnificent treatise , Essai sur la Nature du Commerce en General ( Essay on the Nature of Commerce in General - a ' must read ' for anyone with a serious interest in economics and economic history ) , Richard Cantillon provides us with the following scintillating analysis ( excerpted from Part II : Chapter Six of the book -- all emphasis is mine ) : <p> If the increase of hard money comes from gold and silver mines within the state , the owner of these mines , the entrepreneurs , the smelters , refiners , and all the other workers will increase their expenses in proportion to their profits . Their households will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . They will become accustomed to wearing better clothes , having finer linens , and to having more ornate houses and other desirable goods . Consequently , they will give employment to several artisans who did not have that much work before and who , for the same reason , will increase their expenditures . All this increased expenditures on meat , wine , wool , etc. , necessarily reduces the share of the other inhabitants in the state who do not participate at first in the wealth of the mines in question . The bargaining process of the market , with the demand for meat , wine , wool , etc. , being stronger than usual , will not fail to increase their prices . <p> These high prices will encourage farmers to employ more land to produce the following year , and these same farmers will profit from the increased prices and will increase their expenditure on their families like the others . Those who will suffer from these higher prices and increased consumption will be , first of all , the property owners , during the term @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the workmen or fixed wage earners who support their families on a salary . They all must diminish their expenditures in proportion to the new consumption , which will compel a large number of them to emigrate and to seek a living elsewhere . The property owners will dismiss many of them , and the rest will demand a wage increase in order to live as before . It is in this manner that a considerable increase of money from mines increases consumption and , by diminishing the number of inhabitants , greater expenditures result by those who remain . <p> If money continues to be extracted from the mines , the abundance of money will increase all prices to such a point that not only will the property owners raise their rents considerably when the leases expire and resume their old lifestyle , increasing their servants ' wages proportionally , but the artisans and workmen will increase the prices of the articles they produce so high that there will be a considerable gains in buying them from foreigners who make them much cheaper . This will naturally encourage several @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and this will gradually ruin the artisans and manufacturers of the state who will be unable to sustain themselves by working at such low rates because of the high cost of living . <p> When the overabundance of money from the mines has diminished the number of inhabitants in a state , accustomed those who remain to excessive expenditures , raised the prices of farm products and the wages for labor to high levels , and ruined the manufactures of the state by the purchase of foreign products by property owners and mine workers , the money produced by the mines will necessarily go abroad to pay for the imports . This will gradually impoverish the state and make it , in a way , dependent on foreigners to whom it is obliged to send money every year as it is extracted from the mines . The great circulation of money , which was widespread in the beginning , ceases ; poverty and misery follow and the exploitation of the mines appears to be only advantageous to those employed in them and to the foreigners who profit thereby . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ main reasons : <p> It outlines the workings of a proto-keynesian multiplier effect , though the underpinning assumptions and methodology are profoundly different from the ones Lord Keynes utilized in developing his macroeconomic theories . Cantillon sees a " ripple " effect , today known as a " Cantillon effect " , rather than an expansionary and allegedly benign impact on the economy in general , as the latter appears in Keynes ' work and the consequent keynesian literature hitherto . <p> The " multiplier " of Cantillon is established on methodologically individualist , " micro " foundations , seeing each and every group of people in the process as economic actors who operate within a given framework and who are likely to act in accordance with the changing conditions , each individual or group of individuals affecting the other in varying ways relative to their position in the inflationary process , which occurs in the passing of time . <p> In contrast the keynesian multiplier derives from an accounting illusion in how gross " macro " figures are affected and with all their equally aggregative components being examined as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ though they are not -- and could never be properly considered as -- acting individuals or groups of individuals . As such the illustration of Cantillon anticipates and completely obliterates this artificial division , central in modern economics , between the micro and the macro spheres , by correctly combining the two in an integrated frame of reasoning and observation . <p> Caveat I am not implying that Cantillon was flawless , as that would be a hagiographic not an objective , academic depiction of the founding father of economics ( something that some others do with now-dead economists to legitimize every absurd libel they may call sound economic policy , be it " keynesians " or " neoliberals " ) . I am merely suggesting that he provided a much more subjectivist and therefore realistic foundation to economics than the heap of illusions and muddled aggregative thinking that was developed soon after by the classical economists and the early 20th century Anglo-Saxon economics that followed them . Cantillon 's somewhat primitive but clearly promising methodological individualism was developed and improved later on in economic history by the early Austrian @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ important thinkers as Ludwig von Mises , F.A . Hayek and Murray N. Rothbard ( in mentioning them I am not tacitly suggesting that their theories are homogenous , for that would be a crass distortion of reality ) . <p> The second reason why I appreciate the above-quoted contribution of Cantillon is that it provides us with a very useful analytical device for examining the unprecedented cheap ( for certain few ) money bonanza of our days and for evaluating the economic , social and political implications this monetary relaxation is likely to have over the medium-to-long term . Thus while we are no longer environed by a monetary system based on precious metals such as gold and silver , therefore not expecting an increase in the money supply by the discovery of more mines or the more efficient exploitation of the existing ones ; we may still apply the " Cantillon effect " to central banking and the way all monetary expansions occur , each affecting different classes of people unequally and disproportionately . <p> In the modern monetary system an expansion of the media of exchange , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ financial derivatives -- that derives from it and other assets that are in complex ways rigged by government edicts and regulations ( such as assets whose underlying risk is determined by the Basel accords ) , may only be initiated by a central bank that holds the coercive monopoly to create money out of thin air and to arbitrarily determine primary interest rates ( in other words the despotic power to grossly distort the economy in total ) . When a central bank expands its balance sheet or lowers interests rates , it injects new money into the financial system . That money is mostly profitable for those financiers who first gain access to it , as at that point in time they are the only ones who become better off relative to those who did not reach it first . <p> In time two , these financiers may use their increased power to either strengthen their position in the system , usually to further cartelize their industry or to deepen their entrenchment with the state in some other way ; or to make great profits when prices in sovereign @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the inflationary expectations and increased demand . In time three those who first gained access to the new money are far better off than they were initially , closely followed by other financiers who may now be seen as second class to the former . <p> Once the profits in sovereign bond and commodities markets diminish because of a bullish rally , the inflationary pressure will gradually move into lesser or more risk-bearing markets such as the stocks market , until it eventually reaches out consumer goods and finally wages , with the latter two being the only components of official " inflation " . At each stage the group of people more proximate to the new money will gain the upper hand over those who receive it later in time , which in simple terms means that by this fact alone the distance between the ultra-rich and the very-rich will increase to the benefit of the former ; while the chasm between the 1% and the other 99% of society , will widen further , as the latter will only make use of all that inflation far later in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ carbon . <p> It should be noted however that the inflationary process which originated in the central bank expanding the money supply , may never be reflected in official price " inflation " , for three main reasons : ( i ) the capital requirements that states have imposed on nominally private banks force much of that money directly into state coffers to finance immediate state expenses and roll over existing debt , via the selling of government bonds -- a shameful Faustian Bargain which serves the short-term interests of incumbent governments and the wildly-speculative propensities of state-sponsored financial sharks ( I use the phrase " nominally private banks " because of the symbiosis between banks and state which does not allow for a proper use of the term " private " as opposed to " public " ) , ( ii ) many of the central bank 's monetary operations may be balanced off by a sterilization process that absorbs liquidity from other areas to counter the expansion and thus mitigate the upward pressures on the official inflation indices ; a sterilization process which in practical terms means that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ enjoy the inflationary infusions ( for a more tangible example see my first assessment of the Outright Monetary Transactions ) , ( iii ) a generalized inflation may never be realized because in the process there might be an economic shock , such as a recession or a financial crisis which will hamper or severely damage the transmission channels -- however the disruptions to the economy , caused by the inflationary process , which magnifies the vicissitudes of the largely unstable financial markets , will not be brought to an abrupt end , but rather change form , from monetary to fiscal . <p> Anyone not deluded by the much-touted statist apologia that peddles inflation as a more or less humanitarian policy for the poor and crippled down , will realize that through the mechanics of the inflationary process the ones who benefit the most are the elite of the plutocracy and the state , while the ones who suffer dearly are those at the lower parts of the income distribution . The latter will either have to pay higher interest rates than what would have otherwise been the case @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their purchasing power and savings being eroded , while their relative position to the corporate establishment further deteriorating as they never enjoy the initial stages of the monetary expansion which are in effect a straightforward subsidy to established financiers ; or as is the case nowadays they will be forced , under the threat or the use of the jailhouses , the guns and the tear gas of the state , to pay for bailouts to " too big to fail " mega-corporations and to undergo inane " austerity " which in effect preserves toxic debts and perpetuates economic malpractices , while collectivizing the losses of certain plutocrats whose interests are interwoven with the state elite , at the cost of diminishing social welfare and political clout . <p> In concluding this article I must recognize that there certainly is much more that could be said in expounding on this vast and multifaceted subject and in providing a textual exegesis to the far-reaching deductions that may be inferred from it , particularly towards a broader formulation of the subjectivist interpretation of phenomena along the business cycle and the political process @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ force me to digress from the issue I hereby touched upon , at the expense of alienating the reader . <p> What I draw as a general epistemological and sociopolitical observation from the use of the individualistic , deductive and subjectivist methodological organon in analysing the inflationary process , is that modern economics , having failed to develop any genuinely subjectivist interpretation of phenomena and being trapped in scurrilous fictions , pernicious illusions and egregious fallacies , has in effect provided grist to the mill of the sagacity of corporatists and crony capitalists . The often chimerical theories and models of economists lend the scientific patina of calculus , statistics and geometry to financial malpractices and political opportunism , the effects of which we the unprivileged experience in the form of impoverishment and immiseration in periodic intervals throughout our lives . <p> The mainstream of the economic science must therefore be held largely responsible for plunging us to the human-made morass of this 5-year-old economic crisis . In my humble opinion incumbent economists should stop pretending that nothing is wrong with their ways and should above all find the audacity @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ limited than what they purport to show through their constant exhortations and mathematical scientism . Having no delusions whatsoever , I am pretty much convinced that they will never do so voluntarily , for they will lose their prestigious position as technocratic experts of the state apparatus and its panoply of planning boards . <p> I specialize in European Union politics and political economy with an emphasis on the ongoing crisis in the euro area . I am a Left-Libertarian , a Cynic and a radical subjectivist . The opinions ? express on this website and my other social media profiles are strictly personal and do not reflect the views of any employers , organizations or institutions that are , have been , or may be affiliated with me . Feel welcome to view my full profile or to check my contact information . <p> Copyleft ( ? ) Protesilaos Stavrou 2012 . Source : http : **35;3419;TOOLONG ... Protesilaos Stavrou Blog by Protesilaos Stavrou is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 . Based on a work at www.protesilaos.com . Permissions beyond the scope of this license may be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> Comments are automatically published , except those containing links , which are held for moderation . The moderation of links is only done for the purpose of avoiding spam messages or malicious content . No censorship of any kind is intended . For formal purposes it must be stated that by commenting you agree to the basic conditions of this blog 's comment policy . <h> 0 comments : <h> Post a Comment <h> Protesilaos Stavrou : Analyses on European Union politics and political economy <h> Disclaimer <p> All content , data and opinions provided on this site are for informational purposes only . Protesilaos Stavrou is not a technocrat , nor financial advisor , nor investment strategist and does not recommend any action or the purchase of any stock or advise on the suitability of any trade or investment . <p> The ideas expressed herein are the opinions of the author(s) and do not represent the views of persons , organizations or institutions affiliated with the author(s) . The author(s) may or may not have a position in any policy or investment referenced herein . Any course of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ analysis on this website is ultimately your responsibility . <p> This license is provided with the tacit understanding that ideas can not be owned . Claims to intellectual ' property ' are seen by Protesilaos Stavrou as fraudulent and void . The license therefore rests on the bona fide of any one willing to abide by its principles and to respect the author 's

@@5134641 <p> I have n't been ignoring the Gopher 's loss to Michigan State , it has just been a REALLY busy weekend with family stuff and basketball playing three games in a row . <p> I 'm not really sure we learned anything new yesterday . Michigan State has a very good defense , out offense is not exactly productive and it struggled . Sure we can harp on Philip Nelson for throwing 3 picks but the rushing attack deserves just as much criticism . <p> The defense was consistently put into bad positions so we should n't really be too hard on them right ? WRONG , the way we were run over by Le'Veon Bell was embarrassing . <p> But really I do n't care for a number of reasons . <p> 1 - The basketball team is playing great . This make me happy . <p> 2 - We are going to a bowl game . Winning this one would have kept Michigan State out and it would have improved our bowl position but the fact still remains that we are playing a 13th game . Do n't let the Negative Nancies around town get you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had anybody told you that this team would be bowling we would all be in agreement that this was a successful season . <p> 3 - Coach Kill suffered another seizure . This is really starting to get concerning and I wonder at what point this becomes an affliction that causes him to hang up his clipboard early . I hope for his sake that this gets taken care of , I know it is n't exactly life-threatening ( unless he has a seizure while driving or something like that ) but it is not exactly a healthy experience for the body . <p> 4 - This offense is really young and the defense needs more reps for a lot of their starters as well . A bowl game is really a good thing for the program at this stage . Mediocre bowl games will not be perpetually acceptable , but for now they are . <p> More to come over the next couple weeks reviewing the 2012 regualr season and looking ahead to 2013 . For

@@5134741 <p> Gov . Dannel P. Malloy today will unveil a new energy plan , one that would convert , by 2020 , up to 300,000 households to natural gas , a cleaner and cheaper source of power than what most people use today in the state . <p> That proposal is part of a broader Comprehensive Energy Strategy the state has developed to address the rising costs of energy in Connecticut , according to the Hartford Courant . <p> " The Governor will use his keynote address at the conference ... to share his vision for a cheaper , cleaner , and more reliable energy future , " according to the CBIA . " His Comprehensive Energy Strategy , expected to provide the framework for significant legislation when the General Assembly meets next January , will address residential , commercial , and industrial energy needs . " <p> The strategic energy plan , developed by the state 's Department of Energy and Environmental Protection , calls for investing millions of dollars to encourage homeowners and businesses to find cleaner and more efficient types of heating , develop natural gas fueling stations for vehicles and to develop an alternative energy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Hartford Courant report . <p> The energy plan calls for getting hundreds of thousands of

@@5134841 start viewing messages , select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below . <h> Juice Fasting Buddy At least one month . : ) <p> Hi good people . I just joined this forum and introduced myself on the other thread . I wanted to post secondly on this thread as I 'd be overjoyed to have a juice fasting buddy for support , to hold me accountable ( and vice versa ) , to check in , to vent ( nicely with resolutions not negatively , haha ) , and to in general exchange daily or even a few times a week with one another . I plan to juice fast for a least one month , to include fruit and veggie juices ... periodic water fasting when I 'm time crunching along with herbal teas just for taste and variety . <p> If anyone is interested , please message me and we can at least find out a bit more about one another . It 's great to have a buddy , yet it 's even greater if you have a few other things in common so you can meet in the middle @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Fasting Journals section and start a journal ? All the regulars check that section most often . We will be happy to support you . Post often , support others , and it will be a great experience for you . Most people here are water fasters , but do n't let that stop you . I did a 40 day juice fast back in March and loved it ! Finishing a long water fast right now ... so you will see all backgrounds and situations here , and we try to be very supportive <p> Hi Lena , thanks a lot for the heads up . I had no idea most of the people on here are water fasters . I 'll definitely consider journaling on here and check out the journals of others . I 'm not too sure about that yet , haha . <p> hello i just started a 40 day juice fast ( november 18th-december 28th ) was wondering if youd like to join me , u can join anytime , im doing it to detox from smoking and lose weight here are my stats @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a 40 day juice fast ( november 18th-december 28th ) was wondering if youd like to join me , u can join anytime , im doing it to detox from smoking and lose weight here are my stats : CW : 185lbs GW:140-150lbs <p> Hi there ! Yaaaay , another juice faster ! Most people on this forum are water fasters . Please , come over and check out my journal ! I 'll definitely be with you your entire juice fast as I 'm pretty set on doing 60 days ( I think , anyway ... at least a month ) . I 'm pretty sure I probably need to lose about 65 lbs . I do n't weigh myself , I

@@5134941 <h> GroupM Next 's Copeland : Data Is At The Center Of E-Commerce <p> E-commerce has become much more mainstream in the last two years . And yet , no one company , except for Amazon or perhaps Apple , appears to be notably dominant . Earlier this week , WPP 's GroupM Next released a survey of 1,000 users that showed 45 percent of customers shopping in-store at brick and mortar locations will walk out and complete their purchase online for a discount as low as 2.5 percent . We spoke with GroupM Next CEO Chris Copeland about the trends in the space and why a pioneer like Groupon appears to be so weak , even in the face of producing its first profit . <p> AdExchanger : What did you hope to discover with this survey of showrooming ? <p> Chris Copeland : Not surprisingly , one of the top concerns our clients have is about the economy and its affect on sales . We 've seen , with the rise of mobile phone usage , a change in consumer behavior -- there 's been a shift in how people find and choose what products they buy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ quantify and identify a price point for a given item that would make someone walk out of store . And would we be able to create media strategies down the road to change that behavior . After all , you can change prices , you can offer incentives -- there are many things that brands can do . But understanding when and how to do those things is a challenge . We think this kind of research can help with that . <p> Did you find any particular examples of items that tested your theories of shoppers ' behavior ? <p> We looked at headphones that had the highest retention rate of any of the other products we included in the survey . Plus , there 's a sense of immediacy about purchasing an item like headphones . People buy them when they need them -- it 's not a deeply planned , considered purchase . And people buy in stores because they want something right now . <p> And we also found that there is this constant 10 percent of shoppers that will not leave the store , no @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ go online for the slightest price break . We showed them flatscreen TVs that were $200 cheaper online and they would n't leave the store . We showed some bookstore shoppers $0.50 discounts for the same book online and they took that . It 's 10 percent at either end . <p> For us , the question then becomes , are there groups of people that we can have more influence on ? For example , there are loyalty card programs than can be targeted toward certain consumers and that 's where online data will play a crucial role . Site data , cookie data is going to start getting more compelling for brands which want to know how to keep consumers in their store . <p> What surprised you most about the connection between the ways consumers navigate brick &; mortar retailers and mobile e-commerce ? <p> It 's clear that there are two things that people do when they 're standing in their aisle with their mobile devices . They look for price information and product reviews . If a brand says looks at its mobile strategy and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bidding and messaging when someone types in " keyword-plus-price " or " keyword-plus-reviews , " they may have a way to own the showrooming effect . <p> That could especially help brands that do n't have brick &; mortar locations . If someone types in reviews from a mobile device while they 're in a store , that online-only brand could capture their business . We think there 's a definite media strategy that can be applied there . For example , maintaining a continual presence in Google Shopping , third party review sites is crucial , particularly those that are highly targeted for mobile devices . <p> Last week , Groupon made a slight profit , but there were some worrying hints about its future growth . What does Groupon 's situation say about the opportunities and pitfalls in the competitive landscape for e-commerce ? <p> You 're going to see specialization . You can look offline and see how Apple has created the blueprint for what an in-store experience is expected to be , while having an equally healthy online sales business . Also , you have marketing-focused @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ targeted toward young men while Gilt Groupe has focused on exclusivity women . <p> Groupon just has n't evolved , and they have n't put all the data they have accrued to good use , as far as I can see . When we look at what will shape e-commerce in the future , data is at the center of it : loyalty data , customer relationship management data , site visitation and cookie data -- all of it . The challenge with Groupon is that they 're still all about offering everyone the same deal at the same price . They 're not targeting their pricing based on how often someone has shopped with them in the past . They 're not offering things that are specifically customized to their audience . That 's disappointing . <p> If I were going to look to what 's really affecting the e-commerce landscape , I would look to the ongoing battle in the credit card purchasing space , and the battle between the Amexes and Visas of the world and mobile payments company Square . And Square is clearly putting itself @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ data , in addition to making money on the sales it helps process . Over the long term , companies like Square will be the ones to have the valuable insights about who 's shopping where , for what and how often . I think they 'll ultimately partner with mobile e-tailers and third parties on the use of that data . <p> You mentioned online publishers like Thrillist as being a good example of the marriage of content and commerce . What about traditional publishers like newspapers and magazines ? Pretty much every major newspaper chain and major magazine has some sort of e-commerce play . How successful can these players be in the e-commerce space ? <p> I think publishing and e-commerce can mix , but frankly , I 'm more optimistic about next-gen publishing models like Flipboard , which not only is a great way to distribute digital content , but it 's got the natural social media function that traditional publishers do n't have in their DNA . That offers a great platform for an e-commerce integration . The only thing traditional media outlets have done @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ show that even with a small profit , no one is killing it in this over-saturated e-commerce space . <p> I 've found some interest in the new publishers who bringing content and deals into one location . But at the moment , most of those sites do n't have enough scale to be credible . <p> Lastly , I see Amazon continuing to shape the landscape , especially as they 're required to charge a national sales tax , it forces them to have pick-up stores and locations . That 's something that 's very prevalent in Europe . When that barrier of immediacy in making an online purchase is removed as Amazon has more distribution outlets , the need for a big box showroom diminishes . Selling will become more targeted , more one-to-one , as you watch TV with your wifi-enabled tablet and scan a code to order something . People will be in their living rooms , connected to an Xbox or another device that lets them try on clothes . That 's where

@@5135041 <p> All TVs will be connected to the internet and most or all content will be streamed to the home . That look 10 to 15 years into the future came from Steve Shannon , general manager and senior vice president of content and services for Roku , who delivered the second day keynote address at the Streaming Media West conference in Los Angeles , currently underway . <p> At the moment , there are 325 million connected devices in the U.S. , with many homes owning multiple units . Additionally 47 million people will watch over-the-top content by the end of this year . That installed base number will grow to 538 million devices by the end of 2016 . <p> " The switch is flipped , " said Shannon . <p> While gaming consoles are by far the dominant devices for streaming video to the living room , Shannon says the console base is n't growing . Set-top boxes , on the other hand , are enjoying 80 percent year-over-year growth so far this year . <p> " It 's not like people are running out to buy Xboxes to stream video , " said Shannon . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ TVs and set-top boxes will be the main two methods for streaming video to the living room . The set-top box market is currently a two-horse race , he said , between Roku and the Apple TV . Roku enjoys stronger sales in the holidays , he noted , since it has a $49.99 entry-level model . <p> Showing off Roku 's current lineup , Shannon held up the Roku 2 XS , the Streaming Stick , and the just-announced 3M Streaming Projector . <p> " They 're literally getting smaller all the time , " said Shannon . He told of dazzling the ladies in his daughter 's sorority by showing off the new 3M device . " I had this crowd of sorority girls checking out my little projector . " <p> In the future , Roku will expand beyond set-top devices , building service inside televisions . <p> Roku currently has over 600 channels , Shannon said , noting that creating a channel has become democratized . Roku has about 35,000 registered developers . The most popular Roku channels ( in order ) are Netflix , Pandora @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Crackle , Angry Birds ( the game ) , and Disney . <p> Viewers currently stream 12 hours of video per week on average , Shannon , said , a figure he expects to grow to 30 to 40 hours , as most or all TV content comes from online sources . <p> The elephant in the room , Shannon observed , is whether or not this streaming is cannibalizing the pay TV companies . Cable and satellite revenues are strong and growing , and HBO Go is a pay TV success . By making it easy to get premium content on any device , he said , HBO has made people feel better about their monthly pay TV bills . <p> Pointing out work for the future , Shannon said the industry needs to build a streaming ad model , create a virtual MVPD ( multichannel video programming distributor ) offering customers more choices and better access over the internet for less money ( " That 's coming and that 's going to be a great value proposition . " ) , compete with piracy by offering more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ drive new sources of revenue . <p> Responding to audience questions , Shannon said that Roku will grow internationally , although he would n't give specifics , and said that the unified search introduced Monday would expand at

@@5135141 <h> This Election We Need Politicians Who Support Labor 100% Of The Time <p> As we celebrate Labor Day my union brothers and sisters have a lot to be thankful for and much to be fearful about . We are thankful for our deep and unyielding solidarity between members and nobody can break our solidarity . I am fearful of politicians on both sides of the aisle selling us out , as well as , union " leaders " who should be looking for a new line of work . <p> The solidarity between rank and file union members has never been stronger . Adding to this base comes the strategy of building alliances with community organizations and social justice groups . Though it received scant media attention Occupy Wall Street combined these alliances and organized a May Day Demonstration in NYC that had upwards of 100,000 people marching down Broadway . These new alliances in time will be the counterweight to our corporate owned political parties we now have to deal with . We all know in large part Republicans are the enemies of economic or social justice . This is not the GOP of a generation ago @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not benefit the wealthy . They are bought and paid for by both corporate America and other wealthy global corporations . They prey on the uninformed and misinformed and use divisive social issues to get some working class voters to vote against their own economic self-interest . The only people who benefit by this strategy are the wealthy who benefit every time they check their bank balance . <p> Republican boots on the ground during campaign season consist of the religious right and the idle rich . Hardly tough competition for organized labor . What Republicans do have is vast wealth and they fill up the airwaves and mailboxes with extreme right-wing propaganda . The truth is a major casualty in the GOP campaign . Knowing that the masses are information challenged their goal is to sway enough of these voters to steal an election , then call it a mandate . <p> Democratic volunteers are by and large a group of good hearted and hard-working folks who will make the door knocks and phone calls to help the Democratic cause . Problem can sometimes be is that many politicians @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . They do n't vote on the side of working people when times get tough . Too many Democratic politicians have also become slaves to the wealthy . Then they use the sly operatives in the DSCC and DCCC to fool union workers to do the grunt work when in the end it 's the wealthy who prosper . <p> The other peril facing rank and file union membership is union " leaders " who are too quick to sell out other unions if it benefits their own . We should never support politicians who are with labor 10% of the time . What sense does that make ? We in the union movement care deeply about our brothers and sisters of both our own union and other unions that fight with us . We win and lose the battle for economic justice together . <p> As we celebrate Labor Day and our solidarity we should also ask ourselves are we supporting candidates and causes that in the end just benefit the wealthy ? The forces that are working against the interests of working people may fool enough people to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's not sustainable . These politicians are only accelerating the race to the bottom for all of us . <h> About Bill Brickley <p> Bill is a member of the National Association of Letter Carriers , serving on the NH Letter Carrier Executive Board as CD1 Legislative Liaison . Also serves on the NH AFL-CIO Executive Board . Former NH Area Coordinator Amnesty International and

@@5135241 <h> Obama to Middle Class : Help is on the Way <p> As expected , President-elect Barack Obama announced his picks to fill four of the top economic positions in his administration at a press conference today in Chicago . <p> None of the names came as a surprise , as all of them had leaked out over the course of the past week . <p> Obama selected : Timothy Geithner , the current head of the New York Fed , as treasury secretary ; Larry Summers , a former treasury secretary under President Bill Clinton , as director of Obama 's National Economic Council ; Christina Romer , a professor of economics at the University of California at Berkeley , as chair of the White House Council of Economic Advisers ; and Melody Barnes , a former chief counsel to Sen. Ted Kennedy and executive vice president for policy at the liberal Center for American Progress , as Director of the Domestic Policy Council . <p> Flanked by the four nominees , as well as Vice President-elect Joe Biden , Obama said he had already instructed his team to begin working on recommendations for an economic recovery plan @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ promised to apprise the American people and the incoming Congress of the recommendations in coming weeks , and encouraged Congress to begin working on an economic recovery package when it convenes in January , so the new administration " can hit the ground running . " <p> Obama also pledged a round of federal belt-tightening , and said that he plans to " scour the federal budget , line by line , and making meaningful cuts and sacrifices . " He said more details would be forthcoming tomorrow . <p> Taking several questions from assembled reporters , Obama expressed support for a large economic stimulus plan currently being discussed by many in Congress , but declined to discuss specific numbers . He said this plan should make job creation a top priority , and should invest heavily in infrastructure , health care and education . <p> I want to see the economic stimulus package enacted right away . It is going to be of a size and scope that is necessary to get this economy back on track ... <p> The most important thing to recognize is that we have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and liberal economists , that we need a big stimulus package that will jolt the economy into shape , that is focused on the 2.5 million jobs that I intend to create . We have to put people back to work . <p> Obama also reaffirmed his pledge to enact a middle class tax cut , which he said would be " part and parcel " of the economic stimulus package . Obama would not say whether he planned to push for legislation repealing President George W. Bush 's tax cuts for wealthier Americans

@@5135341 <h> It 's Not ... But It Can Be : Breaking The Newsroom <h> by deerinthexenonarclights <p> Last night , at approximately 10/9 Central Standard Time on the AMC network an episode of the highly acclaimed series Breaking Bad went to air and early reports say that it was one of the season 's weakest , crippled by contrivances and forced , flawed logic . The episode , which sources say was titled Say My Name , simply did n't live up to the standards that the show had set for itself ; when a show is ' highly acclaimed ' people expect perfection and anything less is seen as a let down . The show then was good , just not good enough . <p> A second show aired at the same time of the same night that people generally liked less , but were in turn less incensed by : the True Blood finale . Now , no named sources have come out to say that they thought this episode was in any way ' better ' than Breaking Bad , but it was better than many expected it to be , better than the standard that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is schlock , porn with marginally more plot but it hit these posts even if it missed all the meaningful markers by a mile and so it was seen as something of a success by critics and consumers alike . <p> This brings me to our top story , the third show of the night ( Sunday schedules , amiright ? ) which qualitatively would sit in the middle , equidistant from the high 's of Heisenberg and the lows of Louisiana , if I had the budget for a graph or graphic to show as much and yet this one was the most maligned program of the night and perhaps will be the show that racks up the most criticism of this season and perhaps this year . I talk of course about A Better Fool , the Newsroom finale . It was and has been ' hated ' throughout its debut season and it seems to me unfairly so . That it was never aloud to set its own standard and instead had one set for it , set far higher than it could ever hope to hit @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ even built for it . <p> While the opening credits of The Newsroom do n't really do much for me , the over-wrought iron of the instruments perhaps a little much , the two to three seconds of footage that preceded them do : a scratch of static , a whir and then wham ' HBO ' . That logo has been attached so some of the strongest media memories I have and even today , in the networks terrible lull , it means something and it has in its own way contributed to the downfall of the show . We have certain connotations of what an hourlong HBO show will be -- dark , dramatic and daring to name a few -- and so we all expected that The Newsroom would be those things and not , as it actually is , a broad sweeping network comedy . <p> Aaron Sorkin is a writer that I love listening to , but his name has garnered a respect that I 'm not sure it 's actually due . He too comes with certain expectations -- Oscar winner that he is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ given that the majority of his projects are actually big , blunt and comedic in tone . Billy Wilder is another writer I love that I think is given too much credit for things he was never all that commonly known for ; yes he made Double Indemnity but that was an exception in a filmography full of Romantic Comedies . What Sorkin sought to give us with his scripts was witty wordplay , charming conversations and some cheesy moments of mass romance and while these elements are flawed they are still some of the strongest examples on the small screen . <p> I ca n't mention flaws and not go any further . Are all of these romantic scenes broad , basic and sexist ? Yes , but then so are nearly all of the films Wilder wrote ... screwball is sexist . Does that make it ok ? Of course not , but I also do n't see that it stops a funny line from being funny . Are the characters interesting ? Hmmm ... charismatic yes , complicated no , but then this is the equivalent of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Do you care about the characters and their conflicts ? No , not really . Is this ok ? Not at all . Is there a place for this kind of easy , breezy show on HBO ? We 'll see when they actually start looking at the ratings during Season Two . Is this the time for such a show ? Not at all and yet , because of that answer ... maybe . <p> Just as Vince Gilligan did Scarface Newsroom head-writer Aaron Sorkin has made the influence of Cervante 's Don Quixote on his show quite clear ; he even stated that he planned to have each of the main cast members utter the word ' quixotic ' with or without context during this debut season . Why ? Because that term is the best single way to describe what he was creating ; for those without English degrees here is a dictionary definition of the word : Exceedingly idealistic ; unrealistic and impractical : " a vast and quixotic project " . That to me is what The Newsroom has been all season long , a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ network known for corruption and inspiration in an era known for scoffing at the optimistic . <p> Will McAvoy , the shows protagonist and perhaps its clearest Quixote , started the season of by speaking about all of yesteryear 's great newsmen ; Will looked to them like the Don did Knights of the Dark Ages and with the show in tow he set out to once again start the Renaissance they set in motion . Instead of Jousting though Will wanted to resurrect News , with a capital N : he wanted to bring base facts , intelligent debate , fully researched sources and even the ability to admit mistakes back to the newsroom . Will did so by standing up to blatantly bad guys , showing sassy , screaming women who 's who , screaming over the top of a constant drone of dumb romances and inspiring all around him . <p> In turn Sorkin sought to inspire us with his show to want these very things ourselves . Many claimed that he was smugly rubbing his superiority in our faces by setting the show in the real @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all good newsmen do ; putting a relatable face on the story . He was recycling these true stories so as to try and show us what the coverage could have been like in an ideal society , just as The West Wing was trying to show us just what a President it could be and not why we should vote for Sorkin come the two-thousand election . This is idealistic yes , but no-one dreams of being a tabloid reporter , setting their sights any lower would simply have inhibited the inspirational quality of the project . <p> Of course people have even criticized the simplicity of the shows message . Well , being a cynic is easy , Will himself says half of that during Better Fool in one of many moments wherin the show comments on its own ridiculousness and antiquated notions ( Sorkin is aware of these pitfalls but see 's them as being besides the point ) and being a cynic is especially easy to those of us liberal , elitist leftists who watch HBO and The Daily Show . To us all of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ then we 're the choir and not the target of its preaching ; to many these facts are new , they 're news . These people are actually who the show is targeting ; as it said in its first episode The Newsroom is trying to sell news to stupid . Would you write off a kids show as unnecessary because you already knew not to judge a book by its cover ? ( It sort of seems like maybe this message could bear some repeating ) <p> Another thing that Sorkin showed himself to be fully aware of is that the show will likely never have an effect , that he is the Better Fool , for after all Don Quixote he never succeeded in re-birthing chivalry , but they both still had to try . Sure they stumbled on occasion , sure they occasionally looked silly doing it but I still think that trying has to be worth something but even if it is n't the show still provided me with enough emotions -- laughter , shock , sadness and awe -- to justify the time spent with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for the vast majority of shows out there -- especially those also set within ' reality ' . You do n't have to leave the show alone , you do n't even have to like it , but please people watch it for what it is and judge it accordingly . <h> 6 Responses to " It 's Not ... But It Can Be : Breaking The Newsroom " <p> Well I have watched it weekly and so can judge . The idealism strived for is fine as is most of the show . The relationships are hopeless and the character of Mackenzie impossible to fathom really . As our friends said she was introduced as a battle hardened reporter but from episode 1 she has largely been an annoying screecher . I am hopeless with name recall but was the dopey guy doing on a SATC tour anyway ? And how can the hot finance chick have any attraction to that producer ? ? Everything else is great but his relationships are crap -- and he has never got them right except in WW which is why that show @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the brilliance but are tarnished by moronic women acting moronically . Why is n't MAckenzie CJ ? Why is n't the Pill Donna ? <p> The fact that you do n't know any of their names is a sure sign that the show is n't selling its characters well enough . <p> I do n't disagree with any of that , I just think that A ) some of that is par for the course in a RomCom , which is what the show is whether we like it or not and B ) it still does n't make this the worst show in the world , which may people seem to think that it is . <p> I someone though was to make a version of the season that is three hours long and sans any of the relationship stuff then I would recommend it much more heartily than the original , no doubt . <p> I have not seen it sprouted as a ROM COM anywhere previously : ) I actually saw AS elaborating on the DQ reference after the airing and it made more sense but I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ show at times -- it is a bit too intelelctual ...... especially for a Romcom ! <p> The show is too " intelelctual " , hmmmm . You 're probably right though : it 's too intellectual for the audience interested in the romance and the romance too silly for the audience interested in the intellect . Sorkin is trying to please everyone but in doing so he 's simply pissed them all off . <p> Broadcast News managed to pull together the commentary and the cutsey dating triangles So there is hope for the concept yet , I 'm still more interested in the News side though . Of course now with The Daily Show back I 'll still get that , and it will be up to date . <p> WW was more accessible to Joe Public . Still intelligent drama but most of us could follow its easily . Not sure same can be said for Newsroom but I will definitely be watching it next season . CLP loves it -- she was always the brains of the outfit <p> I 've always wondered about how the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ success for a while but when I first watched it ( admittedly at like 14-15 ) a lot of it went right over my head . I ca n't see it playing very well in the current climate ; culturally or politically , it would be too heady , too biased , to idealized , to simplified , etc. , etc . <p> I 'll obviously be back too come Season Two , but I do hope that it will improve somewhat over the break ; hopefully the new team of

@@5135441 <p> Just curious , but is anybody paying attention to what just happened in Pakistan ? It 's dribbled out in bits and pieces , but I do n't recall anyone putting the whole picture in perspective . <p> Here 's what 's happened . More than a year ago , Asia Bibi , a 45-year-old mother of five , was working in the fields in the Punjab province when some of the Muslim women working alongside her asked her to fetch water . When she returned , several women said they would not accept it because she was a Christian and therefore " unclean . " Insults were exchanged and in the process Bibi made some insulting remarks about the Koran and Islam . <p> The incident blew over at first , but word spread through the town and a few days later Bibi was being pursued by a Muslim mob . The police intervened and rescued her but felt obliged to satisfy the mob 's bloodlust so they charged Bibi with blasphemy . This is a capital offense under a 1979 law . Bibi was held in solitary confinement for more a year until she was finally @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the provincial court and sentenced to die on November 9 . <p> By now the case was drawing international attention . Christian groups began to protest and Pope Benedict XVI appealed for clemency , complaining that Christians in Pakistan are " often victims of violence and discrimination . " Other minority groups in Pakistan began calling for the repeal of the blasphemy law , saying it was used to persecute all minorities . The execution was postponed . Then in mid-November , Salman Taseer , the governor of Punjab and apparently a decent man , called for issuing a pardon and said that blasphemy should not be punishable by death . In late November , an aide to President Asif Ali Zardari put out word that a pardon would be forthcoming . All the while , Bibi remained in jail . <p> So on last Tuesday , Governor Taseer , the man who had spoken up for softening the law , was assassinated by one of his own guards . The killer , one Malik Mumtaz Hussain Qadri , said that Taseer had committed blasphemy by siding with Bibi . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , but none of the governor 's other guards seemed to make any attempt to stop him . Yesterday when Qadri appeared in court , he was mobbed by a throng of admirers who garlanded him with flowers . Meanwhile , Taseer 's family could n't find a Muslim cleric to preside over his funeral . <p> SO THERE YOU have it . An incident that might take place on a playground in this country becomes an international incident in Pakistan with one of the highest public officials in the land assassinated while the crowds cheer . <p> Press coverage has been typically boring and mealy-mouthed . The Voice of America found the whole thing emblematic of class conflict : <p> Political power in Pakistan has usually rested with an educated , liberal , and often wealthy elite -- at least when the country was not under military rule . With his push to roll back the country 's blasphemy laws , Punjab Governor Salman Taseer epitomized what radicals view as an alarming secular drift in Pakistan . <p> Lisa Curtis , of the Heritage Foundation , of all places @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ syndrome : <p> " It 's been events over the past 30 years , like the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan , the Islamization policies of General Zia ul-Haq during the 1980s , which has really strengthened the Islamist forces and the more puritanical sects in Pakistan over the more traditional and moderate Sunni sects . " <p> Ravi Agrawal , reporting for CNN , explains it all as a reaction to colonialism . <p> Taseer 's political thoughts were forged at his English-style high school in posh Lahore , and then furthered in his time studying accounting in England . Taseer lived and died a Muslim . But he was also modern , with western views on law and democracy . And it was those views that clashed with a country that has increasingly identified itself as Islamic , shedding the anglicized traditions of its colonized past . <p> Sounds like he deserved to die to me . <p> Here 's an alternative explanation to the story . These people are crazy . They live in a world that most Europeans left behind when Hieronymus Bosch hung up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ behind somewhere around first grade . I remember well the panic we all felt that year trying to escape some particularly unpopular girl 's " cooties . " After another year , however , the terror subsided . We began to lead rational lives . Not so in the great Islamic Republic . The phobias , irrational fears , superstitions , and delusions that most cultures would ascribe to madness are part of daily life . The place is a lunatic asylum . Thank god they live on the other side of the world . But of course , as 9/11 showed , that 's not really true anymore . And they do have a nuclear weapon , too -- think of that . <p> We are not to blame for Pakistan . As Iraqis have gone on killing each other for the last five years , it was always possible to say that we set the ball rolling by invading in the first place . But Pakistan is sui generis . These people are not rejecting colonialism , they are rejecting civilization . Sunnis kill Shi'ia , Shi'ia kill @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Then they all get together and murder Christians or someone who can speak English or whoever else happens to be at hand . Me and my cousin against the world . <p> I think we should finish whatever the hell it is we are doing in Afghanistan but then get the hell out . Forget about this " nation-building . " These people are incapable of holding a wedding or a funeral without somebody blowing himself up and taking half the crowd with him . Maybe in some other century we can sit down and talk about a peaceful future . For now , I say let them broil in their own inferno . <p> CORRECTION . The law under which Asia Bibi was charged with blasphemy dates back not to British rule , as reader Dr. Terence Tastard informed us , but to 1979 , " and the decision by President Zia Al-Haq to court Islamist support by instituting Sharia law into Pakistan 's legal system . " <h> Vaemar 1.7.11 @ 6:27AM <p> Unfortunately , as Brecht said , you can leave politics alone but politics wo @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ flood into the US , we should be offering this unfortunate woman asylum , and , if necessary , as a matter of national honour and solidarity with Christendon and civilization against pagan barbarism , rescuing her with armed force . It would be the best policy in our own ling-term interests , too . <h> David Thompson 1.7.11 @ 11:53AM <p> We SHOULD offer asylum to any civilized person who wants to escape the insanity that is Islamization . But there 's not enough room for the ones who are genuinely civilized , and we ca n't separate those from the radicals who would come with their bombs , guns , and knives . <h> Occam 's Tool 1.7.11 @ 5:47PM <h> DG in GA 1.8.11 @ 11:41AM <p> I find it interesting that we do n't offer asylum to this woman ( assuming we could get her out of the country , which is unlikely ) but we 'll let every Muslim in the world , regardless of their hatred of our country , to live here and do pretty much whatever they want as long as we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) <h> Alan Brooks 1.10.11 @ 10:08AM <h> Brian Mc 1.7.11 @ 6:29AM <p> I will never forget when the towers came down and Fox went to reports from the Middle East that showed thousands cheering in the streets . I knew right then who the enemy was ; a religion that those who practice it are ( not only ) willing to die , but to kill for because it 's all for the greater good . Guilty or innocent does n't matter , since it is all for Allah and his prophet . This is just one more nauseating example of what " submission " will get you , in the long run . Best to be seen bowing your forehead to the ground than wake up dead . What an insipid life these idiots must lead . <h> KyMouse 1.7.11 @ 9:02AM <p> I remember , Brian , even though networks quickly yanked news footage of the so-called Palestinians dancing in the street and handing out candy to children . Israelis mourned for our loss ; the " Palestinians " celebrated it . <p> Right after 9/11 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and it included a full-page photo of those celebrants . Big smiles on their faces . I 'm so glad I have that booklet as a reminder -- every anniversary of 9/11 , I look at it again . <h> carnot 1.9.11 @ 7:04PM <h> post*tenebras*lux 1.8.11 @ 12:38PM <p> Brian , As I remember , President Bush said he wanted to take the fight to THEM instead of them bringing it over here . Now we have a so called President of the United States who is a weak mealy mouth and is letting the stealth JIHAD take place within our own borders . Time to get them out while we still have borders . <h> Booger 1.7.11 @ 6:33AM <p> The other side of the world ? Ever met a New York City taxi driver ? Seriously , they are here , and they are being welcomed with open arms by the current administration . Check out the " Islamic schools " and mosques in Virginia which were home to the 9/11 attackers and are still open for business . Jihad , coming soon to a neighborhood near @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Sam - it is NOT up to us to judge these people . God will do that . However , we should make every effort to hurry up their appointment ! - just think of their great disappointment when they arrive and find that there is neither an oasis nor 72 virgins ! <h> mjfin 1.10.11 @ 1:14AM <h> ConantheContrarian 1.7.11 @ 9:20AM <p> Booger , my friend , I agree with you about the current administration , but Bush 43 was their buddy too . He did nothing to curb immigration from Meso-America or from hostile countries . Immigration moratorium now ! <h> TommyS 1.8.11 @ 7:41AM <h> Gail Stoltzfoos 1.8.11 @ 7:33PM <p> You 've got that right . I 've been saying that we need to escort these people to the borders and make sure they leave ; now ! Islam is not a religion of peace ! Read the headlines about Christian and Jewish persecution in Muslim nations . They cry the blues because patriotic Americans do n't want their mosque near Ground Zero ; yet we certainly could n't build a church in their backyard @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ! <h> CB 1.7.11 @ 6:36AM <p> What a breath of fresh air article ! It 's about time someone put some common sense thoughts together versus the politcally correct crap that is published every day by the mainstream media . Kudos Mr. Tucker <h> canuckistani 1.7.11 @ 10:54AM <p> I just ca n't believe it took this long for people to realize this ..... Facts about Pakistan and the US since 9/11 : 1 ) Musharraf 's Pakistan was the ONLY state to officially recognize the Taliban regime . Do n't even start on the nuke issue .... 2 ) ISI actively recruited and trained Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters to undermine India 's secret activities in Afghan 3 ) The reneging of the Taliban support for the TAPI gas line was the key impetus for putting them on the Junior target list , not harboring Bin Laden . The ISI is against TAPI , Musharraf 's flip-flop was the reason for his repeated assasination attempts in the 2001-2004 period . 4 ) Karzai and Rumsfeld wanted TAPI to proceed against ISI wishes and the Lahore mafia actively moved @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Vespa scooter " running around Karachi and Islamabad looking for a job before we anointed him president . Rumsfeld 's curious meeting with Turkmen officials in the lead up to the Afghan invasion was revealing . Why was the Sec Def meeting on a gas line agreement ? 5 ) The State department makes a deal with Musharraf - further alienating him from the ISI , to provide cash for his money tree all the way through the civil and military authorities . At the same time , Commerce persuades Wal-mart to add Pakistan to their most favored global-sourcing sites - suddenly making Pakistan go from rogue state to favored-nation , a la Bush 41 and China a decade earlier . 6 ) Musharraf resists entering the tribal territories and keeps the religious elite at bay in Islamabad . The beginnings of US special forces activities in the tribal areas spurs the ISI to undermine Musharraf even further , Musharraf loses internal support and quits . The army is still loyal and protects him inside his home in Dubai . 7 ) The whore and bandit Zardari , likely @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ resumes his corruption to new levels . His willingness to play ball with the US on the tribal areas infuriates the religious elite even further and creates a schism he will not be able to control . The US reiterates support for the Zardari regime . The Swat massacre is the last straw for the religious elite . 8 ) The religious elite begin to undermine Zardari 's power base by playing on religious differences and stirring up resentment even more in the Lahore and Karachi zones . The Christian 's blasphemy charge is the fuse and the ruse leading to the assasination of the Punjabi governor . <p> The religious problems run VERY deep in Pakistan , probably moreso than any other place on earth . Pakistan is considered to be the most Islamic - including Saudi , and their imbedded hatred of infidels , mainly Shi'a , underpins everything in that country . It will boil over . <p> Like our psychosis over Cuba , their suspicion and distrust of India is pathological in nature , and should help us to properly measure their reliability as a " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with Pakistan in business , you must ensure your BS detector is on full at all times . It is a cultural defect that they will look you in the eye and lie with a smile on just about everything . <h> OleSarge 1.7.11 @ 11:01AM <p> " In my dealings with Pakistan in business , you must ensure your BS detector is on full at all times . It is a cultural defect that they will look you in the eye and lie with a smile on just about everything . " <h> canuckistani 1.7.11 @ 12:25PM <p> No , they prefer to find a useful idiot to do that for them . Zardari 's complicity in his wife 's murder is probably the most under-reported issue here . Disgraceful and horrifying if the rumors are true , and we continue to underwrite these guys . The Swat massacre was #2 and the lynchpin to the next escalation of religious BS . <h> Alex 1.8.11 @ 6:29AM <p> Hey Sarge , You know what ? They say the same about us . <p> They say , they helped us @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But when they needed us when India attacked them in ' 71 , we were nowhere . Again they helped us defeat the Soviets in 80 's and how did we reward them ? We put sanctions on them for pursuing nukes . <p> After 9/11 we again go to them seeking their support against the Talibans , the same guys who we trained to help us disintegrate the Soviets in 80 's . And now when they 're doing that , we tell them you 're not good enough . <h> Text man 1.8.11 @ 6:38AM <h> Vijay Dandapani 1.7.11 @ 6:42AM <p> Mr , Tucker is right but did not finish the thought . Leaving them to " broil in their own inferno " includes stopping all aid , civilian and military to Pakistan ; something the US has not done since the 50s . Thats a good thing but never will happen given fears in the US of unintended cinsequences <h> Maha 1.7.11 @ 6:49AM <p> Sir ! I do n't know from where i should start . If you are shocked to see people hailing the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ also from that other side of the world which is called Pakistan . It made me sick too and many Pakistanis are also disgusted with this behaviour of their own countrymen who have brought us shame and condemnation from the whole world . I do n't blame you for perceiving as fanatics when you see such things . Just want to tell you that among such inhuman people who are blinded by their religion , there are some humans living as well . Yeah i am from the same liberal class that west often hears . We are in minority . Taseer death has not ended the hope of liberal Pakistan . His death has actually started this journey and it will be a long struggle . It will take time but surely one day you will see this human side of Pakistan . <p> I will rather ask you to check our newspapers . You will find some humans as well . <h> Pelligtino 1.7.11 @ 9:37AM <p> However , you do not have world 's of time to get it right . I want your country to offer @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ players and the Pakistani national team ( men 's field hockey , too ) . <p> Your country is a mess . It is thoroughly untrustworthy . <p> And we Americans get weary of aiding after events like the Christmas earthquake of 2004 and the recent massive floodings of last year ... only to see you deny our freely given , lifesaving aid to the minority Christians while kicking us in the teeth . <p> And while your military apparatus fakes aiding our war on Islamic terrorist while aiding our enemy with intel on NATO and US forces ' operations . <p> Our patience is not without end . <p> I call on no more dimes to be spent on your lost land . <p> I trust that our Pentagon has plans to invade and secure your nuclear weapons arsenal . And I trust that our next president will have the simple wisdom to know that this is most likely what will need to occur . <p> I wish it were not so . But I have not seen a good Pakistan in my lifetime . <h> David W 1.7.11 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . My " response " is how do we get your views to become the predominant ones ? I see the US media talking to Muslim " moderates " and yet when we read the non-politically correct news about these moderates they are no different than the murderers ( they just use words instead of a gun or explosives to achieve their goals ) . I know there are Muslims ( both male and female ) who would be willing to be friends with a white Christian male like me . But they seem to almost be afraid to do that ? And when we see the honor killings ( one happened in the Dallas area not long ago ) and refusal to allow seeing eye dogs in Muslim driven cabs or to have people with " service dogs " threatened because Muslims around them are offended by the presence of the dogs how can we believe that there is rational thought amongst Muslims ( and let 's not forget the accusation that Israel has trained sharks to kill Muslims and vultures/pigeons to spy on Saudi Arabia/Iran ) . The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you do respect non-Muslims ) . <h> Richard Ong 1.7.11 @ 11:01PM <p> I read one page at one of the dawn.com links above and clicking on the home tab resulted in some suspicious behavior . I 'm having anti-virus program difficulties now . May not be related but advise you to follow any of those links . <p> Actually , it is n't known that Asia bibi insulted Mohammed or the Koran . The women went and complained to a local mullah 's wife and from there , the whole thing blew up . Even Pakistanis think it is unlikely in the dangerous climate for minorities that a minority will insult the Prophet or Koran - knowing that its legally punishable by death and while higher courts overturn verdicts , mob justice usually gets the accused after being set free . <p> The law against blasphemy is not from the British Era . In fact , when Pakistan was founded , it was n't intended to be a Muslim state , but a secular democracy where all religions would be welcome , even if the country had been created @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Pakistan ) . The blasphemy law , the sharia courts , the other repressive laws like the one on adultery , etc we can thank Pakistan 's first military dictator General Zia for . Overnight , Pakistan became a sharia country , but not , because it was supposedly still a democracy with all its frills . <p> Pakistan 's end began soon after its birth , when Badshah Khan - Gandhis friend and the founder of the non-violent Khilafat movement , who opposed the creation of a separate state for Muslims was persecuted and the non-violence movement outlawed . The only reason for this was that Badshah Khan was well respected in India , even though he swore total loyalty to the newly created nation . This man had been hailed all over the world , but persecuted in his motherland , jailed many times . Yet , in a country where it is a norm for politicians leaving their roles to move out of the country , he lived and died in Pakistan . <p> He was Pashtun and in death , he asked to be buried in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ knees by the violence in Afghanistan , perhaps readers may appreciate that both sides called for a voluntary ceasefire for his funeral . This is what Pakistan had , but threw away as it stepped on a path of dominance rather than freedom . It was the first step toward hate . <p> The inhuman laws and crazy mullahs and all came after that . <p> From then on , its been downhill , with ' anti-India ' and later ' anti-west ' providing direction for change rather than the wishes of the people . <h> WeMustResist 1.8.11 @ 8:18AM <p> Thank you Vidyut for your insights . It seems that the level of hate and dishonesty in Pakistan is so high that the West would be better off by sending Pakistan to quarantine . The less exchange we have with the corrupt the less chance of misfortune coming our way . We do not gain enough from our relationship with Pakistan , Somalia , Yemen or Afghanistan to justify diplomatic relations , business dealings or normal immigration dealings . A good doctor tries to get poison out of a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we can not help those nations and they can only hurt us . Leave them alone- let them stay as far away from us as possible . <h> Appleby 1.7.11 @ 7:02AM <p> This week an Oppressed Minority was found driving through Ottawa ( our capital ) with an IED in his car . The Coptic churches in the GTA were surrounded by police due to threats by Islamists ( who are NOT half a world away ) who had already blown up Coptic churches and were threatening to do the same for Christmas everywhere in the world , including here in Toronto . <p> Yesterday there were 9 pages of hysterical reporting in our local newspaper about the horror of the Canadian Junior Hockey Team being shellacked by the Russians and merely obtaining a silver medal . <h> Pelligrino 1.7.11 @ 9:52AM <p> Appleby , I do appreciate the many comments I see you make . Thank you for this as well , as I will look to see about what occured in Ottawa . <p> I hate to tell you that your land seems a real magnet for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from Turkmenistan -- on long-term green card in the US . She was at a Univ . of South Carolina school . Despite seeming to truly enjoy all the decadences of western lifestyle and her freedoms to date any boy she wanted , she longed for a more rigid Islamic environment . <p> All true . I thought her daft , but I listened and just recorded her impressions and plans . <p> Living near Charleston with a clan of two dozen from her country ( the only one who seemed to be full-time employed was her ' engineer ' father ) , she stated that she was a semester away from fleeing to a better Islamic land .... <p> Canada . Specifically Toronto because her sister informed her that it was much better there . <h> Stephanie 1.7.11 @ 7:03AM <p> Maha , if you are genuine , thank you . But I have to ask you , why are you who are more " rational " muslims , not more vocal in the media ? Why are you not screaming from the rooftops for your muslim brothers to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 21st century ? <h> LiveFreeOrDie 1.7.11 @ 11:01AM <h> BD57 1.7.11 @ 3:35PM <p> This . <p> The issue , IMO , is neither our government nor those of our allies ( outside of Israel - - if our current government considers Israel an " ally " , that is ) want to recognize that this sort of thing is tolerated by Islamic governments in general ( and Pakistan 's in particular ) . <p> People like Maha have to tread carefully . They are distinctly in the minority in a country where 1 ) there are thousands of people who will kill Maha for disagreeing with the majority 's view ; 2 ) all too many of whom are in government ; 3 ) so Maha can not count on official protection and/or action against those who would kill Maha ; and 4 ) nations like the United States bring little or no pressure on the government to change any of these things - instead , we insist the majority is , by and large , as sane as Maha. <h> missbosslady 1.7.11 @ 6:02PM <p> I am following @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ shock rippling among liberals . I also see many of the educated class of Pakistan stop defending and excusing and ignoring in favour of confronting the problems - for the first time . I can see what you mean by " long struggle " , but I believe that it would be worth it . <p> I wish you and your country the strength and courage to stand by this new path that seems to be unfolding . <h> Nick 1.7.11 @ 2:58PM <p> JamesJ , <p> Ha-ha ! <p> " Tonight , on the al Cosbi-Mutallah Show , Heathcliff-Malik 's wife , Claire-Fatima , and her friends , get into an argument with a Christain woman at the local grocery store . Later , they organize a mob to drive the woman out of Brooklyn . When the borough president speaks out against the mob , he is killed . " <h> RCV 1.7.11 @ 12:13PM <h> Occam 's Tool 1.7.11 @ 6:05PM <p> Yes , my dear RCV , they do . And what degree of force should the US be allowed to use to neutralize them to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all the way up to maximum ( Hiroshima or plus ) force , if necessary . That could be an unpleasant , but NOT unforseeable , consequence of Pakistan continuing its radicalization in the future . <p> Now , you may think I 'm extreme , or hyperventilating , and you may be right . ( My wife nicknamed me Gulo gulo for a reason . ) On the other hand , what degree of force would the Pakistanis have to use against us to get you to consider that option ( say Islamic radicals smuggled some Hiroshima sized bombs and hid them inside large enough medical device containers ( this is , of course , the plot of The Rings of Allah , which was written by a nuclear weapons expert ) ) . <p> How many cities would it take to have our President essentially forced to use Maximum force ? Tom Kratman , a former Instructor in Rule of Law at the Army War College , posits that it would take 3 in his novel , Caliphate . ( I find it interesting to read fiction on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ research or War Law expertise---Col . Kratman , in addition to his law degree , has been an infantry battalion commander . ) <p> That 's one of the two big questions on this issue---the first one is how aggressive will we be in pursuing intelligence on potential attacks , and the second one is , if a weapon of mass destruction is used , how hard should our counter be ? <h> RCV 1.8.11 @ 2:06AM <p> I 'm with you entirely on this question , Occam . When the world was in the situation of the US vs USSR , we had two superpowers , once of which was evil , but both of which were rational . Mutual assured destruction was a deterrent . That equation will not work if one of the nations with nuclear weapons is under the control of irrational fanatics , particularly religious apocalyptic . If you believe utter chaos will usher in the return of the Mahdi or the Messiah , that Armageddon is the necessary precursor to the dawn of eternal justice , MAD is not only no deterrent but an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the apocalypse ; a nuclear weapon in his hand , or in the hand of the fanatics who undertook the killing of someone who opposes a law against blasphemy , is simply intolerable for civilized countries , because it could well spell the end of civilization . <h> RCV 1.8.11 @ 6:06PM <h> darcy 1.10.11 @ 12:44AM <p> I do hope you 've been over to gatesofvienna.com since our last discussion about sharia law and its incompatibility with democracy and our Constitution . If not , today is a good time to visit ; there is a video you really do need to see ; the date of its posting is Jan. 9 , 2011 , under the title : Replacing the System with Islam . <p> But they 're NOT on the other side of the world ! We 're IMPORTNG them by the thousands , and then being brainwashed into " diversity " while we subsidize their lives . We were better off when we used to pit them against eachother , funding and training them , overtly on one hand , and covertly on the other @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ indeed . I being a Pakistani myself agree that we are right now sitting on a major fault line , but I expect the world to give us a break . It is the folly of decades , being funded by west and some rich arab nations that we are in the mess you see us in right now . To top it all , these so called champions of liberalism were cheering around a military dictator ( Zia ) . All the laws and extreme ignorance is the fruit of the same era . I wish we could some how wipe all this , but unfortunately it will take time for the liberals read educated to pacify the have not 's . It ca n't be done over night . It ca n't be done through mere use of force rather rationality alone needs to prevail . We need to support democracy and the world need to support us they we see it through . At this critical juncture we in Pakistan expect support not sanctions . <h> Melvin 1.7.11 @ 7:48AM <p> I guess it could be said @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ another . Pakistan , and some other countries are like the crazy uncle that lives in the house next door . Rehan , you make very good point . But unfortunately we all live in a drive up window mentality now , in that the world wants immediate results right now . Pakistanis are no different than anyone else . Yes , they have their unique culture , but give a Pakistani an education , become acclimated to the rule of law , and democracy or better yet how to develop a society that has a representative form of government rather than a true democracy , then he or she is just like anyone else . But at least to me , just because a Pakistani learns these things does n't necessarily mean that he is rejecting of what a Pakistani is and embracing a Western lifestyle . I 'll take a guess here , but that is what I think what many rank and file Pakistanis are afraid of . If they get an education that they will reject all things Pakistani . I 'm not complete sure but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there , hopefully Pakistanis will get tired of killing each other and seek a better way . <h> Melvin 1.7.11 @ 7:36AM <p> " These people are not rejecting colonialism , they are rejecting civilization . Sunnis kill Shi'ia , Shi'ia kill Sunnis , and Sunnis and Shi'ia . " Well people , I guess it could be said that this analysis could be applied to the American Indian . The Left loves to tout that the White man massacred the American Indian , but truth be told the American Indian was doing a pretty good job of doing that on their own , without the White mans help . The White colonialists just taught the American Indian to be more efficient at it . I read the article and the American Indian similarity just immediately popped into my head . <h> canuckistani 1.7.11 @ 11:05AM <p> What the heck are you talking about ? The white man has been the most prolific killer in the history fo the world . Full stop . We 've turned it into a science , imbedded it into our culture , and is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fact . <h> Jim 1.7.11 @ 12:59PM <p> Read a little closer , Canuckistan . Perhaps white folks are more prolific , but only through the weapons their intelligence developed ( unlike the Stone Age Am . Indians " ) not for their greater lust for blood . For that , see Allah , who , by the way , is a literally a " god " in name only . He exists only in the febrile minds of his believers , and in the five letters of his name . Fortunately , the TRUE God ( of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob ) will redeem His believers , while Allah 's will be screaming in flames for all eternity . <h> Clint 1.7.11 @ 1:04PM <p> Bull Faux Canuck <p> Death Counts : 65 million in the People 's Republic of China 2 million in Cambodia 2 million in North Korea 1.7 million in Africa.By Commies 1 million in Vietnam.By Commies 6 million+ Japs.WwII etc ...... <h> Occam 's Tool 1.7.11 @ 6:31PM <h> Richard Ong 1.7.11 @ 7:01PM <h> canuckistani 1.7.11 @ 11:35AM <p> What the heck are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ most prolific killer in the history fo the world . Full stop . We 've turned it into a science , imbedded it into our culture , and is the root of our power . No characterization , just fact . <h> Melvin 1.7.11 @ 11:46AM <p> Oh plaaaeeessseee , spare me the sanctimonies BS . Granted , the White man has killed his share , but look at the rest of the world . Africans have spent centuries killing and enslaving each other . Even to this day the sell each other into bondage . Chinese Chairman Mao murdered over 50 million of his countrymen . But oh no let a white man do somehting he is considered the most ruthless bastard on the planet . Just look to the United Nations its chock full of prolific murderers representing the Jihad against the White Boy . <h> JimH 1.7.11 @ 1:51PM <p> Actually when you think of deaths historically , Native Americans may be considered responsible for the deaths of many millions after early explorers brought back tobacco and syphilis from the new word . <h> Richard Ong 1.7.11 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said it so well ! Let 's flee that area of the world that is the hall of mirrors at the entrance to hell . Were the lives of thousands of Americans , our young people , and all our treasure worth the sacrifice ? So some woman in a shroud can VOTE FOR THE FIRST TIME ? ? ? ? ? What an outrage that our young men have become maimed or died because we would like MALIK to experience .... democracy ? I do n't give a rat 's ass if they kill each other off and eat the carrion . I care about my countrymen first . And there is not a life over there worth dying for . They are primitives , they are brigands , they are what they are . We could never impose our values on them . But we died trying . What a waste of lives . What a tragic shattering waste to die for such as these . Let them all kill each other . Or we should , should they threaten us anymore . When will we finally take @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to smithereens ? Need proof that all cultures are NOT EQUAL ? THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS ? Take a good look at the jackals living on the other side of the world . And keep them the hell away from us . They are contagion . <h> darcy 1.10.11 @ 2:11AM <p> Am in total agreement with you , scythe . Bush and his neocons sold us a lie about the rop ; it 's time to pull out and let them have it out between themselves ; stop Muslim immigration ; close down mosques and explain that SEDITION is a treasonous offense , punishable by law ; they are n't going to hide between the First Amendment to grow their creeping sharia in our country . Do you hang out at all at gatesofvienna.com -- wow , what an eye-opener it is ! <h> pecopfc 1.7.11 @ 7:50AM <p> Time for talk is over , the islamists want a Crusade , I say give them one , they blow up a Church , two Mosques blow , 10 Christians killed , 100 islamists die .... these @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them , , , , ya ca n't bomb them back to the stone age ... they already are .... worthless scum , all ! <h> Floyd Looney 1.11.11 @ 1:14AM <p> The Islamics have been on a crusade for a very long time . Have you not seen a map and read about how they have spread shariah law and Muslim rule further and further in every direction these last 50-100 years ? <h> Will 1.7.11 @ 7:50AM <p> Not to parrot Booger , but here we go " Other side of the world ? " Mr. Tucker , I lived for quite some years in NYC , Brooklyn to be specific . I can not quote numbers , but can certainly direct you to sections of the borough where you might need to look at a street sign to remember where you are . Many Islamic countries are represented , not just those in South Asia . My experience was in a section where many were from the Balkans . The KLA recruited aggressively and openly during my time there . Storefront mosques abound , and there is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of course makes the Victory mosque plans all that more suspicious ( considering it 's business district location ) far away from the communities in Queens , Brooklyn and Harlem . It is not unusal for women arriving from the Middle East , South Asia etc. in the latest stages of pregnancy and being rushed via taxi from JFK to city hospitals to deliver " New Americans " As a former employee of one , I worked in the " diaspora " and can relate some interesting anecdotes . Nowhere near as mad as Pakistan , but a growing story that continually goes unreported . Give the " situation " here and in Western Europe , this has been and will continue to be disastrous . <h> Intelligent Design 1.7.11 @ 7:51AM <p> Nothing could be more hostile to our Constitution and freedom . Islam should be identified by Congress as a subversive organization . Mosques should be outlawed in the U.S. , immigration of Muslims should be permanently banned , Muslims should be banned from U.S. airports and airplanes , Muslims should not be allowed to serve in our @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " should be shut down . The goal of Islam and mainstream Muslims is to destroy our freedom , replacing our government with a " religious " dictatorship , such as the current government of Saudi Arabia . For those who do n't know : Saudi Arabia 's constitution is the Koran , its law is shari'a , and the practice of any " religion " other than Islam is prohibited in Saudi Arabia . Non-Muslims are even banned from their " holy " cities of Mecca and Medina . This is what Muslims want to install in the U.S .. They use our Bill of Rights to further their cause , while at the same time their goal is to kill freedom . Islam belong in the 7th century . <h> Intelligent Design 1.7.11 @ 8:05AM <p> In case the above is n't clear , Muslims want the rest of us to submit to Islam , to surrender our freedom in the name of 7th century idiocy . Suggested readings : The Grand Jihad by Andrew McCarthy , Reflections on the Revolution in Europe by Christopher Caldwell , The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ article in the October 2010 issue of Commentary magazine titled " 20 Years of the Rushdie Rules " by Daniel Pipes . <p> True religions oppose evil ; Islam embodies evil . It is comparable to Nazism and Soviet Communism . Will the new Ronald Reagan place stand up and identify Islam as an evil force ? <h> martin j smith 1.7.11 @ 7:58AM <p> I think to be fair the US Constitition should be read in every house or worship in this country and that would include mosques--well that is a joke really . But the real issues of seriousness is the Socialist , Marxists , Left 's flirtation and love affair with Radical Islam . And here is the real story : Sharia Law . The Left will encourage it . Do they realize what they are doing to this country ? Some do and some do not . But those that do and these are the hard core , the Soros backed leadership ( I mean morally and financially backed ) know very well what they are doing . Their idea is to destroy this country period @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ thing but at some point very soon --in less than one year the real dirty truth about what the conflict is about in our country . The Left Core who develop the policies are not naive incompetents . They are our enemy within and the Tea Party , Conservatives and others will have a major challenge on their hands : Do they call it as it really is or do they go on to claim these folks are just incompetent boobs ? Events may overtake time to decide and there may be little time but to go for it . I 'll give you an example : A manjor instance of Islamic family violence or even Political hit killing in our country which is let pass because it is supported by Sharia Law . What say you now ? <h> Intelligent Design 1.7.11 @ 8:11AM <p> It 's incredible how the left fumes over Sarah Palin 's benign religious faith , while at the same time it preaches " tolerance " of Islam , the embodiment of evil . Obama and the rest of the Demo Socialists flunk the IQ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ aid and comfort to the enemy . <h> Bob Grant 1.7.11 @ 9:35AM <p> Convienant excuse to shill for Sarah Palin ... not to get off topic too much but Sarah Palin 's religion will not be the ammunition she provides to the left that will take her down , hopefully not the republican ticket . <p> Her demonstrated lack of judgement , temperament , and ability to lead will be what brings her down . <h> Intelligent Design 1.7.11 @ 12:03PM <p> Palin is just an example . The left despises Christianity in general , but of course Lefties all pretend to be church-goers when running for office . Even B. Hussein Obama is a church-goer ...... what a crock ! Palin is n't qualified to be president , and would lose if nominated , but she is more qualified than Obama . <p> Despite the long bloody track record of Islam , the Left is more receptive to a mosque in NYC than a cross at some makeshift memorial to veterans in East Overshoe . <h> Bob Grant 1.7.11 @ 12:31PM <p> There is nothing more offensive than @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the name of " social justice " . With the consent of an approving media : <p> *African American churches becomming nothing more than polling stations and venues for political rallies * Pro abortion Norheastern liberals using the Catholic Church for political ends . e.g. , sitting in the front pew ( hopefully in front of a camera ) , taking communion knowing full well it 's in direct violation of Canon Law <p> Just a couple of examples . They want to render Religion meaningless , like the constitution . Whatever the constitution or Religion means to the individual is all that matters . <p> Let 's not forget , however , that Palin wont be the only Christian running in the republican primary . <h> Bob Grant 1.8.11 @ 5:29PM <h> Melvin 1.7.11 @ 8:11AM <p> The first step is to have a societal acknowledgement that we are at war with Islam . But , are we at war with Islam or are we at war with a bunch of manipulative Bastards , who shield their true political intentions by hiding behind Islam . Hitler used the Jews @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Those who are hiding behind Islam are no different . <h> The Big E 1.7.11 @ 11:46AM <p> Regardless of whether we believe we are at war with Islam , Islam is at war with us . It has been since its founding . It will be till its destruction . If you do n't believe me , read the Koran for yourself . <h> Melvin 1.7.11 @ 11:49AM <p> I do n't doubt for one second your analysis . But what I am looking for who is controlling the snake . We can beat this snake to death till we are blue in the face but until we get to the head and chop it off , we are going to continue to have to deal with the snake . <h> Richard Ong 1.7.11 @ 7:31PM <p> The head of the snake is the passages in the Koran and the teaching of all eight schools of Islamic " jurisprudence " that mandate death for apostasy . Islam is such a backward and oppressive political and social system that erstwhile " Muslims " would depart from it by the millions @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ As Mr. Taseer 's death and Ms. Bibi 's sentence of death show even the most ridiculous charge of disrespect of Mohammed ( such as laying an outdated calendar with Koranic verses on a table top ) will be acted upon by the lunatics . Muslims who do not formally swear that the Koran is in error , Mohammed was in error , and all eight schools are in error are ipso facto active supporters of a doctrine of murder and have no place anywhere in the world , especially not in the West . <p> Allow Muslims in our midst and you have the perfect engine for murder and subversion ( replacement of the Constitution with the shariah ) . <h> Mitch Angoop 1.7.11 @ 11:55AM <p> It is certainly anathema to EVER utter the horrible word " NUKE " but that may be the only thing in our arsenal that could save us . Of course barry the muslim has sworn he 'll never use them , and our 111th congress assured our destruction by ratifying the latest joke of a START treaty . <p> Yes , I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ; I 've said it so do n't come back and tell me I 'm a monster . But ... When our own stupidity and cowardice comes back to bite us , the only thing we 'll have is the slightest threat that we 'd ever use them . I love the lefties who try to dishonor the U.S. as the only nation that ever used them ; but the use of nukes saved an estimated one million American lives because we did n't have to invade Japan in 1945 . <p> Now , all it would take is to make it the official policy of the U.S. that any attack on The United States of America by any muslim organization or country be considered an act of war which will bring on full nuclear retaliation on Mecca first ; then Medina , and from there on to the capitals and military targets of muslim countries . We know who these people are and what they 're doing . We just do not have the guts to do anything about it . These people have been clear : Their objective @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of us as they can . Stop the deadly denial . <h> Mitch Angoop 1.7.11 @ 3:26PM <p> Are you more concerned about an atheist who sees this as the pinnacle of his/her existence and wants to get as much as possible out of life since there is nothing afterwards ? Or , would a muslim fanatic just lusting for death/martyrdom and his 72 virginians be a little more likely to ' push the button ' should he have the chance ? <p> I 'm more afraid of the muslim fanatic . Actually , ANY kind of a fanatic scares me because they have no logic and simply can not understand a reasoned argument . <h> Bob Grant 1.7.11 @ 3:57PM <p> MAD worked beautifully against the Soviets for the reasons you explained , i.e , their life on Earth is the pinnacle of his/her existence . <p> However , your proposed policy against Muslim countries would quickly devolve into a quasi MAD scenario because terrorists would realize they have ONE shot at us before every one of their holy sites , capitols , military targets , etc. would be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sign from Allah to prepare for and initiate a " final " battle to fulfill some prophesy . <p> If you want to go down that path , we might as well just hit them at some random time like a " thief in the night " . <p> I 'm just saying a warning such as what you are proposing would have the opposite effect of what you are seeking . <h> Bob Grant 1.7.11 @ 3:59PM <h> Mitch Angoop 1.7.11 @ 7:30PM <p> No worries Man , I used " virginians " intentionally after an old joke but nobody noticed . Without being cavalier , the possibility of some muslim fanatic with a nuke is terrifying beyond belief . Because of their past behavior I 'd put nothing past them and would take them out in a ' pre-emptive ' strike as soon as any threat was verified . Not a second 's hesitation . These are very dangerous times we are in . <h> Cerebrate 1.7.11 @ 8:24AM <p> William Tucker might as well have garlanded the murderer with petals and cheered him on . There is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are hate mongers . He reports about the 100 admirers of the murdered showering him with petals but petals were also laid on the grave of Salman Taseer by 6000 Muslims . He does not talk about candle light vigils in all cities of Pakistan and thousands of others who mourned Taseer. <h> hardcard 1.7.11 @ 8:39AM <h> Louis Jenkins 1.7.11 @ 8:41AM <p> As I said yesterday , you know it , I know it , but our blessed Pretender in Chief does n't . Well , maybe he does know it and is constantly looking the other way . Until we change our government , its mannerisms , and its purpose , we will live under the threat of Islam . I believe we need to change the way we look at Islam-it is a threat and no good can come from it . Europe has undergone many tremendous changes in the last 20 years , to the point that the majority of entitlement reciepents are Muslim , that most of the crime committed is by Muslims , that the police does n't enforce the law , or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do not want to live in the kind of world that Islam brings . I certainly do n't want my daughters living that way and do n't want them contending with Islamic law . Yes , those masses hide behind Islam . <p> What is the proper solution ? Most of you know what it is . Good luck gentlemen and gentleladies , our government could n't care less what happens to us . I do . <h> Asif Abbasi 1.7.11 @ 8:48AM <p> Being a Pakistani myself , i think this is a view of ground from 10,000 feet above . Just like you can not get the actual picture from such a height , similarly you can not decipher the truth sitting a continent apart . Weather or not the motive was Religious is yet to be found out . People have been citing the murder has political . <p> Secondly , Blasphemy law is a law in Pakistan . You guys can not judge weather a particular law in another country is good or bad , reason being , its the Democracy and the people who have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ If this law is unfit for our needs , we will elect people who will abolish it . As of now , it is perfect , to keep religious harmony among the people , and stop people from inciting restlessness in society . <p> Now lets come to the current situation of Pakistan , and how it has landed in the situation where it is now . Pakistan from the moment it gained independence has been at the mercy of American policy makers , who had times and again used ' This land of Pure ' to its own advantages . The reason was pretty simple : Initially to keep a lid on Soviet union , and now to make sure China does n't get away with so much budget surplus of trillions of dollars , and controlling the reserves in Afghanistan and Central Asia . <p> As of now Pakistan is the hub of terrorist activities from CIA , Mossad and Raw . Funding to the religious groups have been provided directly by India , and a number of Taliban captured in Swat and Waziristan have been found to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ first place . Upon interrogation , they have been found to be agents from these intelligence agencies . I feel sorry for you believing what is shown on your Television screens , and thinking that truth is what you see . If you ask me , Pakistan is one of the bravest nations in the world . No one in the world can walk around , admist suicide bombings , but Pakistanis have still be hanging around . Give them credit for this at least . They have still been producing worlds finest doctors , engineers , computer scientists , pilots , businessmen etc . <p> And finally when you said , you should do your business in Afghanistan and go away , i think you are hugely mistaken my friend . USA is here to stay . The energy reserves in Afghanistan and Central Asia are too big for US to leave this country . Even in Iraq , you handed the govt to USA puppets , energy reserves to US Companies , and then gave partial control back to Iraqis . Afghanistan is actually a gold mine , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ... <h> Melvin 1.7.11 @ 9:44AM <p> Loulou like it or not the man is correct . Afghanistan and Pakistan are one big giant mining operation . Does it suck , well it depends on which side of the ocean your on . The stuff that is requiring certain minerals are only found in certain places . China is already using minerals as a strategic weapon . Russia is as well . Both Russia and China would both love to put us in a hurt-locker defense wise . Now this notion of why ca n't everyone just get along ..... To perfectly be honest , I personally gave that up a long time ago . There will always be the tyrannical bad guys who are bent on forcing their will on everyone . The world has never gotten along since the beginning of time when man first walked upon the earth . And I finally concluded that it never will . <h> Asif Abbasi 1.9.11 @ 8:36AM <p> Would you kindly explain if killing a governor is barbarism who supposedly said something bad , or killing innocent civilians via drone @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> I have n't seen you guys speaking loudly about that . How about you guys being perpertrators of terrorism , and spending your tax money on killing those innocent civilians for the sake of energy and protecting your coming generations and at the behest of Oil Conglomerates ? ? ? ? <h> macon 1.7.11 @ 9:09AM <h> Amor de Cosmos 1.7.11 @ 10:33AM <p> Asif , you are nuts . You swallowed every piece of Arab propaganda there is . <p> Blasphemy laws that result in capital punishment . Are you serious ? Are you civilized ? <p> What kind of country can claim to be tolerant and liberal when it allows such things to be on its law books . Get out of the conspiracy echo chamber that pervades Islamic countries ( and the " self pitying " poor us , we are pawns in America and the Zionists ' game " and the 8th century . <h> MikeD 1.7.11 @ 12:00PM <p> Remember , any reference to any form of ' democracy ' will never be found in any translation of the koran or the sharia law @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is a dictatorship or religious oligarchy . There is no way anybody in Pakistan ever had a vote on the blasphemy laws . <h> Petronius 1.7.11 @ 9:11AM <p> Risking death for saying something depends on who you piss off . And as for 1st grade never ending , most members of my union think the world should be run like kindergarten where nobody gets more than his " fair share . " The muslims would n't be able to colonize the west with anchor babies if our citizens did n't kill theirs and the level of maturity was n't so abysmal . <h> Occam 's Tool 1.7.11 @ 6:39PM <p> World 's finest pilots ... yeah , they go toe to toe with the IAF every day . Uh huh . <p> There are nice people everywhere , and smart people everywhere ... but Pakistan is a cesspool . And no one in the US wants to go to Pakistan for graduate study , except maybe those who want to be fundamentalist Islamic clerics . Get real . <h> missbosslady 1.7.11 @ 6:25PM <p> Good grief Asif , wake @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ BS rhetoric are drawing to a close . <p> Fewer and fewer are buying what you 're selling . <p> A half a world away , really ? I hate to tell you but technology has bridged that divide . Unfortunately , the primitives of the Middle East do n't know it yet . <p> Big , bad America is not the problem . No , no . America is just the straw man for every oppressive middle eastern regime . You see , when you 're going to keep your people living in the 7th century it is imperative that they have a repository for their inevitable anger , lest they turn that anger on their actual oppressors. <h> bf 1.7.11 @ 3:00PM <p> " You guys can not judge weather a particular law in another country is good or bad , reason being , its the Democracy and the people who have voted for the lawmakers , who made this law . " <p> The founders of our nation despised democracy because it is mob rule . Some rights are granted to all by with certain unalienable Rights @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ pursuit of Happiness . " <p> Death for expressing one 's opinion is an egregious violation of natural law--it is savagery . Is Allah so weak he needs you to defend him ? <h> jasperbob 1.7.11 @ 12:39PM <h> ConantheContrarian 1.7.11 @ 9:22AM <p> " I think we should finish whatever the hell it is we are doing in Afghanistan but then get the hell out . Forget about this " nation-building . " These people are incapable of holding a wedding or a funeral without somebody blowing himself up and taking half the crowd with him . Maybe in some other century we can sit down and talk about a peaceful future . For now , I say let them broil in their own inferno . " <h> Asif Abbasi 1.9.11 @ 6:41AM <h> Seek 1.7.11 @ 9:28AM <p> This is one of the best articles about the Islamic mind that I 've ever read . Tucker grasps why one can not simply " aid " or " build " the Islamic world in a manner of aiding post-Communist Eastern Europe . Muslims are inimical to reason . They @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hell . <p> Some people simply can not find happiness unless they are enslaved , enslaving others , or both . Islamic radicals fit that bill . <h> Vaughn Burckard 1.7.11 @ 10:15AM <h> VBMax 1.7.11 @ 10:40AM <p> For the life of me , I ca n't fathom why any decent , informed person would want to self-identify as a Muslim . ( unless under threat . ) What possible tenets could they point to that ought to be admired and practiced . I suspect that there are many out there that would like to leave but are afraid . We should do everything we can to make it safe for them to do so . <h> martin j smith 1.7.11 @ 10:56AM <p> Lets talk about human rights . And , I have no question that my view of this topic is from a Western perspective--big deal that is who I am . Lets say female is sentenced to stoning to death for looking at the wrong person . And lets ay this case is in a Muslim nation--Take Iran or Saudi Arabia or wherever . I would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ where it is happening . It may be their law but I do not have to like it or respect it and I can within the confines of this country ( USA ) support those who protest its being carried out and , if it applies to boycott such a nation or at least have some form of condemnation . But within this country I believe we should not allow any group for any reason to have a large parallel legal system I wil give an example : Very religious ( Hasidic for example ) jews may have a religious judicatation of the marital problems but if a person male or female kills , sexually abuses or in anyway breaks our secular laws within our legal system they are tried by our system just as anyone else . As I understand it , this would not be true in Sharia law . Thus i am opposed to this . <h> davelnaf 1.7.11 @ 11:17AM <p> What the author says about Pakistan is true , to one degree or another , of the entire Muslim world . <p> But Pakistan is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ more can one say about its level of dysfunction that its nuked-up paranoia over India 's alleged nefarious designs does n't say far more eloquently ? If some enormous and irreconcilable ethnic difference lay at the bottom of it you could at least partially rationalize Pakistanis ' collective behavior to where the word ' insane ' could a get a little rest . The biggest difference between these two countries is that Islam dominates every aspect of life in one of them . <p> Nation-building is never going to succeed in Afghanistan . To begin with the Afghans are just too backward . They may have a trillion dollars ' worth of mineral wealth , but the average Afghan will never see a penny of it . And we should n't be in that country when their elites begin stealing it and Afghans are made to believe that we are aiding and abetting it . Talk about a Taliban recruitment tool . <h> Bill 1.7.11 @ 11:49AM <h> mames 1.7.11 @ 12:16PM <p> This is not a religion , it is a militaristic , political cult whose leader was a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sword and formed a cult out of a mismash of paganism and misquotes from the Old Testament . These animals started the crusades centuries ago and are still fighting it . Reason will not persuade we must take them out as they converge on out world . A religion is only as good as its founder . Jesus Christ is mine and he NEVER condoned force as a means to conversion , just the use of His Word . We must pray for these enemies and carry a pistol grip Mossberg . <h> Ken ( Old Texican ) 1.7.11 @ 12:41PM <p> Bill , maybe I can help you out . A " mainstream " moslem is a slave .... and thinks it is pretty cool , evidently . Conversely , A " moderate " moslem just died ... and does the BIG oopsie when aproaching the judgement bar of the Creator of the universe . <p> Picture it , Bill . Take a snapshot or three in your mind . First he does the ole ' classic doubletake. " oops , this ai n't paradise . " <p> Then @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " Uh , where is Mohhamed the prophet ? " <p> Then God begins the eternal version of a videotape of the guy 's life here .... and the man has to watch it in his inmost heart . Then ... just perhaps ..... a just and loving Creator speaks to him one last time : " Ahab , I spoke to your heart many times during your life . I know that you never heard my true name in your life , but I also know you heard me . How could you cut off your daughters ' clitori ? How could you sell your beautiful daughters into a life of joyless slavery ? How could you countenence the murder of innocents ? <p> Then , Bill . <p> Hear the words perhaps something like these . " So Ahab , do you repent ? " <h> Fred Flintstone 1.7.11 @ 12:23PM <p> Have any of the right-wing US GOP hatemongers bothered to notice that the people trying to make a difference in Pakistan are educated liberals ? Funny how the US version of your muslim caveman is more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a wealthy puppetmaster . <h> Doctor Right 1.7.11 @ 12:39PM <p> Those " Liberals " in Pakistan are promoting Religious tolerance and freedom , both things supported by the US Constitution that Conservatives love , and that Liberals in this country have recently admitted ( Ezra Klein , anyone ? ) that they despise . <p> And it 's the Liberal jack-offs like yourself and Obama who are playing footsie with Islamic terrororists . <p> SO again , little boy ... You 're an idiot . <p> You must be a dim-witted high school student , or a college professor . Either way , you 're a liberal clown . <h> VBMax 1.7.11 @ 1:16PM <h> Fred Flintstone 1.7.11 @ 3:02PM <p> I 'm referring specifically to those ( hatemongers ) that believe the final solution is to bomb the whole region or conduct islamic genocide out of simplistic fear and ignorance . Self-RIGHTeous pseudo-patriots are n't the only US citizens that abhor the hate and death brought on us by islamic extremists . My observation was about left and right wing politics taken to mutual extremes in different cultures @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <h> Casual Observer 1.7.11 @ 7:52PM <p> I believe when the commenter Maha stated above that the people striving for modernization in Pakistan are the country 's ' liberals ' , he was using the term ' liberal ' in it 's original classical sense : meaning liberty , freedom , natural rights of man versus the tyranny of the state . Modern ' liberalism ' , synonymous with ' Progressivism ' , has devolved into a form of Marxism which in fact embraces the philosophy of an all powerful state , and should be re-labeled as such . <p> Pakistan was a bad idea from the start . It was a sop to the the ego of the disturbed M. Ali Jinnah and his love-hate relationships with England and with his Hindu ancestors as well as Shi'a coreligionists and the Sunni masses , whose language he did not speak . British India probably should have been divided into 4 parts , and not based on religion , when independence came . At this point it would be best to redraw the maps by giving India both Punjab and the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ creating a separate Baluchistan from Iranian , Afghan and Pakistani territory . <h> Dave Williams 1.7.11 @ 12:53PM <h> MH 1.7.11 @ 1:06PM <p> Ann Coulter had it absolutely correct when she said these people need to be forcibly civilized for the good of all mankind . <p> I do n't recall who it was who said , in response to the question of " Who gets to judge what 's civilized and what 's not ? " , The Civilized get to judge , and if you ca n't understand that , you 're not one of them . <h> Bob Grant 1.7.11 @ 2:16PM <p> You could argue those countries were civilized . They had evil regimes occupying them but civilized nonetheless . <p> You have a country in Afghanistan that is uncivilized in the truest sense of the word . From my understanding , many , to this day , do not understand basic hygiene but know the intricacies of the operation of an AK-47 as well as any weapons specialist around the world . <p> They have a backward religion that did n't go through a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ experience of living within a civilized society , so no frame of reference . <p> The only action the U.S. should take at this point is to exit the country not before having a nice heart-to-heart with Karzai , explaining in no uncertain terms what mortal consequence awaits his country if any future hostile action takes place against the U.S. <h> idalily 1.7.11 @ 3:00PM <p> It wo n't happen because it 's not possible . The only thing that civilizes the Stone Age is time , and while there are a minority of enlightened souls in these Muslim countries , most of them are living and thinking in the Stone Age . <h> George True 1.7.11 @ 9:16PM <p> You make a good point , Bob . Culturally , the German and Japanese peoples were civilized prior to fascist/imperialist regimes taking over their countries . <p> If a fringe group of people calling themselves Christians started blowing up Jews or Muslims in any Western countries , real Christians would hunt them down relentlessly . Real Christians would be vehemently denouncing them from the pulpits and staging mass rallies against @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do not do this against the radical Muslims who preach and commit violence tells me all I need to know about their culture . <h> Richard Baker 1.7.11 @ 1:20PM <p> Fred : So tell me . Where are the Episcopalian , Baptist , or Lutheran suicide bombers/assassins ? ( By the way , the Assassins were a Shia terror sect in the 11th-13th Century ) . Must have missed those stories in the paper . Had n't heard those ministers were advocating the wholesale slaughter of those who disagree with their faith . Maybe you need to start taking medication , instead . <h> Musl Pak 1.7.11 @ 1:44PM <p> Dear all , I 'm indeed dismayed to read all the hate mail coming out from the representatives of the ' civilized ' West ( or so they seem to be ) . Although my few words may not change the skewed opinion of most of you guys , formulated over the years , from seeing biased news coverage of remote incidents unduly projected as norms ; but for the record let me say this . 1 . Religions @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ religion . Muslims and Christians have justified their actions in history in the name of their religions . Ironically all believe in the same God but fight over Him as well . So please pressurize your government to pull out your forces from Afghanistan where they are perceived as occupational force first and foremost . Stop planning to snatch the mineral resources of that region . Request for them and you 'll get them . 2 . About Pakistan , it 's a country only 63 years young and still evolving . Just think where was US 63rd year into its existence ? Civil War was round the corner . 3 . In Pakistan , Muslim majority lives generally in peace with their Christian , Hindus , Sikhs , Parsis and other minorities . But this does not make sellable sensational news for the World . Only one odd unfortunate incident of hate crime or injustice makes headline news thereby tarnishing the country 's overall image and creating loath for her in the hearts of the westerners . 4 . Two wrongs do n't make a right . Violence only @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talking about more war and killing . Support Pakistan 's silent majority in prevailing over the violent radical minority . This nation is not a cesspool of decadence . 5 . Lastly , Peace and Patience is the only way out for this world . Otherwise the humanity as a whole is doomed . <h> Musl 1.8.11 @ 2:56AM <p> Missboss , These are very complicated matters where nothing is black or white . <p> I 'll maintain that Islam does not teach violence . I suggest you to read Koran in totality and not take its statements out of context . <p> About love and warmth from Middle East , please come for yourself in the countries there and you 'll be pleasantly surprised see how much welcomed you 'll generally feel . Do n't jump to conclusions on reading a few ill meaning articles . <h> missbosslady 1.8.11 @ 10:24AM <p> Perhaps you could tell by my posting name that I am a woman . What possible allure could there be for a woman to go anywhere near the Mid East ? <p> As a female I can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that I might ever step foot in a muslim nation is ZERO . <p> You have no chance of convining me to appreciate the religion or the region . There is nothing that you could ever say that would stop me from daily thanking God that I , as a woman , was born in the United States . I have an interesting life story that I know , without any doubt , would have been impossible anywhere but here . <p> No woman , with an ounce of self-respect could be attracted to a religion or land that holds them in such low regard . <p> We have the instant case of vigilantism as well as one where a policeman dispatched a man accused of " blasphemy " with a hammer while the accused was lying in his hospital bed . I say this is par for the course there these days . If you tell me it was n't so before Zia came on the scene , fine . Make that case , though I 'll bet it was an artifact of British thinking that persisted after the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is wildly un-Islamic . <h> George True 1.7.11 @ 1:54PM <p> Musl Pak : I am sure you are sincere in what you are saying . Unfortunately , Islam does preach violence , and it always has . Such is codified in the Koran . Furthermore , it is questionable whether Muslims are worshiping the same God as other religions . Any alleged holy book that exhorts its followers to kill and/or subjugate any who are not co-religionists can not be from the God who created the universe . Muslims are unwittingly worshiping he who rebelled against God . The only way the violence will ever end is to acquaint every Muslim with this inescapable fact , <h> Musl Pak 1.7.11 @ 2:20PM <p> Dear George , Thank you for your response . I 'm glad you aired your views and gave me a chance to clarify this perception . I 've read Koran and have tried to look for exactly what is mentioned by you and many others like you in this world . Please be rest assured Koran does not teach violence or forceful conversions . It is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ may be taken in isolation or out of context and a complete inference drawn on it , but to say that Koran codifies violence is indeed incorrect . About your comments whether we all believe in the same God . Well the God of Adam is the God of Noah and the God of Abraham , Moses , Jesus and finally of Mohammed . Through out history and even before these religions were born , men have been fighting and the three main causes have been women , wealth or land . I do n't seen Crusades as a fight between two religions , these were wars purely fought for economic interest between Europeans and Arabs ; and Gods two religions were twisted in such a way so as to make a common man on both sides , fight for a cause dear to his heart and what better cause than his religion . My friend , we need to rise above these petty differences and defeat the few evil conspirators amongst us who thrive on division and destruction of us gullible majority . Peace be with all of us @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . After all we are children of the same God . <h> Occam 's Tool 1.7.11 @ 6:54PM <p> Seems to me the Crusades definitely were religion centered , quotes : Abu Huraira reported Allah 's Messenger ( may peace be upon him ) as saying : The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say : Muslim , or the servant of Allah , there is a Jew behind me ; come and kill him ; but the tree Gharqad would not say , for it is the tree of the Jews . ( Sahih Muslim , 41:6985 ; see also 41:6981-84 and Sahih Bukhari , 4:52:176,177 and 4:56:791 ) <h> Musl 1.8.11 @ 3:09AM <p> Occam , <p> I 'm so glad that you gave me this opportunity . If the West 's despise for Islam is based on this quote then let me tell you , its taken out of context . <p> First of all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Hadith ' , something that Prophet Mohammed reportedly said to one of his friends Abu Huraira . So Koran is certainly out of this now . In those days Islam was struggling to make a mark in Arabia and was naturally being resisted by Jews who were the predominant force in the region especially trade and commerce . This was the time of battles where the few followers of Islam were struggling to survive . In such a challenging situation this statement was quoted by one of Mohammed 's companions to somehow pep up the sagging morale of his fellow Muslims . Again as I have been saying earlier , please get your facts right and see the whole picture . <h> Musl 1.8.11 @ 3:20AM <p> Bob , Assuming that Osama Bin Laden is the real deal here and not some implant or escape goat , let me say this <p> " I condemn Osama Bin Laden for the heinous acts of terrorism he has committed in the name of my religion Islam . His acts of terrorism have no religious or moral justifications and hence would go to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ extent of saying that with his acts he has done no service to Islam or its followers . Infact he has played into the hands of conspirators who want to draw a wedge between the two great religions of the world and their naive and good followers . Now who are those conspirators , benefactors or third parties ( to say the least ) who are benefiting from this divide is anyones guess . <p> For your part you can begin with condemning the invasion your government did of Iraq and Afghanistan on the pretext of making this world a safer place to live and in the process killed tens of thousands of innocent people if not hundreds of thousands . Can you condemn your ex-President for that who I 'll refer not as a Christian here cause then there will be no difference between your and my thinking . <h> Musl Pak 1.7.11 @ 2:35PM <p> Dear Ken , Your use of unparliamentary language speaks volume of your personality . But should I generalize this kind of attitude for all Christians ? Certainly not . <p> Sorry for having @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in . Again you are confusing culture with religion . Please tell me in which civilized country do you , as a custom , shake hands with your left hand ? <p> As Mr. Schulze said it rightly ; there are extremists in all religions of the world including Islam and Christianity . This does not essentially make these religions bad . So next time you wan na ask a question on any religion do n't go running to a fanatic . <h> idalily 1.7.11 @ 3:04PM <p> Sorry , Musl , but you can not separate culture from religion in countries that allow no other religion the right to free speech and practice . In nearly all Islamic nations today , your religion is your culture , and your culture derives from your religion . You can not , at this point in history , separate them . Nice try . <h> Musl 1.7.11 @ 3:25PM <p> Idalily , Islam is a major religion in countries spread across North Africa , Middle East , South Asia ( about 170 Mio in India too ) , Central Asia and down @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is not Saudi Arabia , Iran or Pakistan . It is Indonesia . If you mean to say that all these countries spread across half of the world have the same culture then you are sadly mistaken , my friend . The predicament as I stated earlier with most of the Americans is that sitting in US and getting whatever biased information from their local news network , they think that they know the world rightly . Please understand that the world out there is very different from what it is made out to be . Unless an average simple and good at heart American is not made scared of the big bad world out there , how can the US War Machinery and Corporations make billions of money from war hysteria . This goes all the way to Washington . I guess I have said enough . If you do n't believe , please come to any Muslim country especially the oil rich Kingdoms and see for yourself , what beautiful lives and lucrative jobs the Westerners especially the Americans enjoy . And yes there are churches , temples @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Israeli jews are also very few by choice ) . In history we have had such phobias against the Indigenous Americans ( earlier known as Red Indians ) , then Blacks and now the Muslims . <h> Occam 's Tool 1.7.11 @ 7:02PM <h> Musl 1.8.11 @ 3:36AM <p> Dear Occam , <p> Honestly I do n't know of any predominantly Muslim country having a sizable Jewish population . <p> But then the reason is not that much maltreatment or victimization as it is economics . <p> There is no denying the fact that US and Israel are much more economically prosperous countries than Muslim dominated countries in the Middle East . US is the land of opportunities not only for Jewish people but also for Hindus , Buddhist , Muslims and other people of the world . Most of the people if given a chance would want to migrate there solely for better economic prospects . <p> Hence the natural trend of Jews would also be to move to US and even to their promised land of Israel which by the way is also mentioned in Judaism . <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ US are economic but to get the gullible West 's sympathies the reasons for migration are projected as religious intolerance in Muslims countries . <h> Musl 1.8.11 @ 12:10PM <h> Sweeney 1.7.11 @ 2:40PM <p> Musl did get it right . His ( or her ) thinking that our opinions are based on " biased news coverage of remote incidents " is absolutely spot-on . However , I would describe media coverage favors Muslims due to the fact that their reports are infrequent and downplayed enough so as to go unnoticed . <p> The rest of that comment is so riddled with lies that this person can be no less than criminally insane . <h> Schulze 1.7.11 @ 2:17PM <p> Of course this incident is directly related to colonialism . Colonialism has bled all of the third world dry and forced it 's own views of " civilization " upon it . As a result , people hunger , people are uneducated and , following this , people are prone to become extremists . The USA , too , has it 's fair share in all this sad kind of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the nineties in nearby Afghanistan to push out the soviets , and Saudi Arabia , a kingdom with no constitution , is still one big buddy of U.S. administration . Of course , this is a scandal . But it is no less scandalous to declare these people the satan of modern world . Once it were blacks , than jews , now muslims ? Most of the 1,6 BILLION muslims in the world never did anything wrong . You must understand that ALL religions harbour extremists . There are a few in islam , there are a few extremist jews , and there sure as hell are a few extremist christians . Just look around in your own fine dump of a country ! <h> Musl Pak 1.7.11 @ 2:44PM <p> I fully agree with you Schulze . <p> It is our job as the moderate believers of the same God to rise above the petty differences created in the name of our religions and finish off the extremism and hate prevalent among the vocal few in our societies . <p> Muslim moderates are on the back foot @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , are my Christian moderates doing the same in their backyard ? Seeing from the e-mail exchanges on this forum , it seems a challenge over there too . <h> idalily 1.7.11 @ 3:10PM <p> Musl , you 'll have to give Americans some time here . People of your religion murdered 3,000 innocent members of our citizenry on our own soul only ten years ago . I saw and heard very little sympathy from moderate Muslims at the time . If you were there , you were pretty quiet . We may need to " rise above the petty differences " but many of your fellow Muslims have much bigger things to rise above . Murdering Americans in an unprovoked attack , for example . And I do n't hear hatred of Muslims preached at my local church , but I can safely say they are at the local mosque . When it comes to pointing fingers of blame , please start a little closer to your own backyard . <h> Musl 1.7.11 @ 3:36PM <p> Please do accept my heartfelt condolences again on the sad and untimely demise @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ faith and nationalities . It was indeed a horrendous attack on humanity that day not just on US . People from around the world died . Let me assure you that Muslims around the world shuddered from this event and were indeed saddened but regret to say that they did not get projected on western media . Only a few , barely in hundreds in a population of more than 1.6 Bio aired their happiness to get media attention . And you might not believe me , but some of the jubilation shots specially in West Bank were not even shot on that day . These were shots taken from some earlier jubilant event . You might think I 'm lying but I know since I was based in an Arab country then . And yes you are right we have a few fanatics teaching hate in the name of religion but so are many in Christian churches and the best answer for all such fanatics irrespective of their religion is to admonish or just ignore them . They are mad men from around the world . Regards <h> Bob @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ... we have a few fanatics teaching hate ... " is disingenuous at best . <p> When you make a statement such as that , everyone knows what you are doing . You are attempting to force a stalemate so the debate will end but is very insulting to the people who seriously think about this topic . <h> Musl 1.7.11 @ 4:29PM <p> Sorry to hurt your feeling Bob . <p> I agreed that there are fanatics and I also gave a solution of how to deal with them . <p> What is your suggested solution . <p> Remember , its easy to kill a person but very difficult to kill his cause that gets transferred to others . This is how violence only spreads more violence and all become terrorist . Its just that some wear a Uniform and others wear a Turban . <h> Musl 1.7.11 @ 5:00PM <p> Bob I wanted to disengage but am compelled to respond to you . <p> My American boss once told me , " I see no difference between O Bin Laden and Bush Jr . Both of them claim @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ feel that they are fighting for God and both of them are killing innocent civilians ( as collateral damage ) in their righteous war against the other ( presumed infidel/non believers ) " . <p> Its just that one has been termed a Moslem while the other President of United States . So my friend like I 've been saying two wrongs are not making a right and both sides are unjustified in their actions . And who is getting killed in the end the innocent Americans , Afghans , Paks and others in the cross fire . <p> We have to give peace and reasoning a chance . Violence will not get us anywhere . Can we please agree on this ? <h> Musl 1.8.11 @ 3:48AM <p> Dear Mathew , <p> Thanks a lot for your kind words . Indeed appreciated . <p> You are right in saying that the sane voices which finally reach you are far and few and the simple reason is the lack of common forums . Take this for example , I guess of the tens of opinions aired here only three or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ even aware of these many discussion forums in the West . <p> Secondly most of the moderate muslims I know avoid getting into such discussions on fear of being branded as extremists , fanatics or apologists by their Western counterparts . The fear of getting tracked down by the vigilant government agencies also persist hence internet silence is preferred . <p> Lastly religion is a very personal matter for all of us and after a while I see people irrespective of their beliefs loosing their composure and stooping to irrational , nonsensical and at times inflammatory teasing which is not helpful towards promoting logical discussion . <p> But I guess we have to rise above such challenges for the common good of homo sapiens because we are humans first and Christians , Muslims , Jews later . <h> Musl 1.7.11 @ 3:44PM <p> Richard , Are you telling me there are no killings in America on disagreement ? Its just that Muslims tend to hide their heinous act behind Islam . Despicable indeed . Let me explain ; Malays , Indonesians , Kazakhs , Bosnians etc are also Muslims , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of religion since its not there in their culture . However , some Arabs or South Asians do it unfortunately since its part of their culture . Religion is yet again a tool abused to justify their crime . It might have had worked earlier but does n't work anymore . So again , mate , its culture of those lands not Islam . <h> Ken ( Old Texican ) 1.7.11 @ 3:50PM <p> Richard , save your breath . Musl is trapped in outer darkness . There is an Arabic term ... Takania ? ( sic ) that literally translated means " holy lies " to be told to infidels , uh us . Somehow , these poor lost souls think that God needs slaves ... or wants slaves ..... duh ! <p> The Bible teaches that God created mankind in fellowship with Him . These poor souls picture our Creator as some sort of overgrown Saudi King ... but with no morals whatsoever ... just a slave driver for His personal amusement . <h> martin j smith 1.7.11 @ 3:57PM <p> I smell the smell of geoprge Soros @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Fred Flinstone name a few . When you have posts who give you their sarcastic insulting attitude I think you can bet they are operatives not those who have serious facts . Let me give an example : Would a Jew who is Orthodox be welcome in Saudi Arabia and be allowed to pray in a Temple of Jewish prayer un hindered ? In fact would a Jew be permitted to fly saw from Tel Aviv to Ryad ? there is a lot of talk about so called Islamophobia in the US . But I contend that here is more phobia of the West in Muslim countries than the other way around . However when a group of Muslims come here and flip the bird to the American people of the Ground Zero mosqu ethat Is Islamophobia . Those Muslims who are leaders of the Muslim community in this case arrogantly deny traitions , sentiment and the emotions connected to the area and persist in flipping the bird so to speak . Well in this particular case those leaders--not all Muslims--are seen in a very negative light indeed as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be treated with respect it goes both ways , not one way . Treat those who practice other religions in your country with respect and it will be reciprocated. treat the culture and traditions of your new home country appropriately and you will be given respect . There have been too many incidents where this has not happened . The ground zero mosque is but one example . <h> Occam 's Tool 1.7.11 @ 7:04PM <p> Please , a predominantly Muslim country where there is a robust and prosperous Jewish minority that builds new synagogues . The answer is that there are few Jews in Muslim countries , and not " by choice , " BUT BECAUSE THERE IS NO FREEDOM THERE . <h> WeMustResist 1.8.11 @ 8:08AM <p> Yes there are good and bad people in every religion , but not all religions have bad doctrines . A religion that believes God to be full of hate and lies has two bad doctrines . Yes religion is a very personal matter and we can not tell a mans religious beliefs by a label , only by his words and/or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the religion of Mohammed ( who started the religion ) is not relaxed . Yes there are fanatics all around the world but the best way to deal with them is to resist them . They must never be allowed to think they are right . They are wrong . We should contest them as often as we reasonably can . I see you are trying hard to be fair Musl and I wish you good luck . <h> Musl 1.8.11 @ 12:21PM <p> Thank you mate . <p> I 'm just trying to follow the real religion of Muhammed . Religion of peace , compassion and tolerance and indeed resisting the fanatics in my backyard , who have distorted this religion to gain their own political objectives . Your good luck is truly valued . I 'm sure you are also resisting your own fanatics present in your home turf promoting hatred and war . <h> Louis Jenkins 1.8.11 @ 3:47PM <p> From the WRS blog a small snippet : <p> " All this is increasingly obvious , particularly to those not brain-altered in institutions of higher learning or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the public has a chance to express itself on related issues such as immigration , bilingual education , gayization or dhimmization , the people overwhelmingly reject the diversity project . The ruling elite continues implementing it nonetheless by a series of increasingly totalitarian measures , including judicial nullification of inconvenient plebiscites , new laws explicitly at odds with the will of the people , persecution of " crimes of intolerance , " and executive rulings that circumvent the apparatus of democracy . " <p> Our law makers simply do not care . And they have mouth pieces who speak for them . <h> A.C.Guard 1.7.11 @ 4:30PM <p> These crazies are in the UK now and out birthing British citizens , Within 25 years the UK will be an Islamic country with sharia law . It will happen here too if we allow it . As a start do not elect far left liberals and somehow get us away from Political Correctness which insures radical Muslims ( is that an oxymoron ) will take over our country . <h> Tim the Enchanter 1.7.11 @ 4:59PM <h> Ed 1.7.11 @ 5:04PM @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and a hard core libertarian , I agree . Get out and get out now . Leave these people alone to kill each other . If the Taliban and Al Quaida come back , blast them with drones and the heck with civilian casualties <h> Norman Conquest 1.7.11 @ 6:33PM <p> How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries ! Besides the fanatical frenzy , which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog , there is this fearful fatalistic apathy . <p> The effects are apparent in many countries . Improvident habits , slovenly systems of agriculture , sluggish methods of commerce , and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live . <p> A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement ; the next of its dignity and sanctity . The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property , either as a child , a wife , or a concubine , must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities , but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it . <p> No stronger retrograde force exists in the world . Far from being moribund , Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith . It has already spread throughout Central Africa , raising fearless warriors at every step ; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science , the science against which it had vainly struggled , the civilization of modern Europe might fall , as fell the civilization of ancient Rome . <h> Musl 1.8.11 @ 4:36AM <p> Miss Boss , <p> I 've read your highly charged point of views and all I see in them is an anguished and perplexed soul looking for redemption . God Help you in that . <p> About your advise to me about History books , I feel that they are not more than story books written by authors to propagate their points of view over the naive readers . There are enough history books written on atrocities , killings and even genocide committed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Jews around WWII Germany 2 . Catholics over Protestants 3 . Catholics over Orthodox Christians 4 . White christian settlers over indigenous Americans 5 . Christian Europeans over African Slaves 6 . Christians over Christians ( US Civil War , Word Wars etc ) The list goes on ..... <p> Now does this make Christianity or all Christians bad ? No ! Same is the case with Islam and Muslims . Have a heart and please learn to differentiate between criminals and their religions . <h> Musl 1.8.11 @ 12:24PM <h> missbosslady 1.8.11 @ 1:39PM <p> You have made many statements , putting them forth as fact , subsequently claiming your entitled to your opinion . Indeed you are entitled to your opinion , but not your own facts . <p> Your disingenuousness does not go unnoticed . If one goes back and reviews your comments they will find a false humility preceeding a backhanding in most instances . <p> Your claim that your posts are not meant to convince are the most dishonest . Clearly , in several posts you are trying to convince the reader , is n't @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you trying to deceive the dhimmi ? One can not help but wonder . Of course , what really stands out , to me in particular , is your lack of response to my posts concerning women and Islam . Frankly , I understand why you would n't , but very telling indeed . <p> As far as having a good life , I 'm a free woman in a free country , so a good life I do have and as you and I both know , if I lived in a muslim country that certainly would not be the case . <h> Musl 1.8.11 @ 3:48PM <p> Miss Boss , <p> At least we can agree to disagree ? Thats a start . <p> Women in Islamic countries live normal , progressive and secure lives . They enjoy equal opportunities and are entitled to education . They make good doctors , lawyers , engineers , pilots , business executives , bankers , scientists , nurses , educationists , actresses and what not . Yes some unfortunate incidents of violence and injustice do prevail but they are as common @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Unfortunately the ones occurring here are duly reported on international media thus spreading an overall twisted image of that Muslim country and Islam . <p> Having said that , women across the world have to be generally careful from aggressive , violent and mentally deranged psychopathic men and thats not limited to just Muslim countries only . <p> Following is an excerpt I wish to share with you from an valid source on Women 's position in Islam . <p> Quote " A woman was in a miserable state before Islam . She was subject to humiliation , injustice and oppression . She was buried alive for fear of poverty . Also , because women were used as a means for gaining money and for prostitution , which is a source of disgrace . By the advent of Islam Shari'a honors the woman , gives her natural position in life and returns her freedom . In general , she is like a man except in some rulings and regulations that befit her physiologically . The woman in Islam ranks high as a daughter , sister , wife and mother @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as well as independence to behave within the Shari'a limits and good customs that Islam sanctions , i.e. without committing what is Haram such as displaying her charm , misdeeds and uncovering her body . At the same time , man has freedom , but within Shari'a limitations and good and useful customs that Islam sanctions . So , it is not true to say that women do not rank high in Islam . Whoever wants Muslim women to be free from her modesty , morals , honor and religion wants misery for her , to overburden her and to ask her to do what she naturally can not " Unquote . <p> For better understanding women 's position in Islam you can go to Google and type the words ' Women in Islam ' and you 'll get various legit sites . I wanted to forward you some but am unable to do so . <p> Since you have sworn never to set foot in a muslim country maybe these sites will help you better understand in general women 's position in Islamic countries . Otherwise come and see @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ end , I 'm not trying to convince you but just trying to show you the other side of the picture . Inconvenience is regretted . <h> Bob Grant 1.8.11 @ 10:52AM 1.8.11 @ 12:30PM <p> No Bob , I 've said it before and I 'll say it again . Jews were victims of Nazi Holocaust . I 've been to one of the concentration camps in Dachau , Germany and seen the horrible place myself . Infact there was one muslim lady Dr. Mehrun Nissa who was also burnt in one of the human ovens and her body fat used in soap by the Nazis . So I can fully sympathize with Jews on Holocaust . <h> darcy 1.10.11 @ 2:33AM <p> Quite so , missbosslady . Martin Luther wrote " On War Against the Turks " ( ca1528 ) ; makes for very interesting reading that is even more harsh on Islam than is Churchill . I recommend it . <p> We must never , ever forget that taqiyya is a mark of virtue for Muslims which permits them to lie through their teeth to " infidels @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Trust none of them . <p> Whereas , to Christians , lying is a sin , and is roundly denounced from the pulpit and among Christians themselves . <h> Chris 1.7.11 @ 6:58PM <p> Islam is a religion founded by a murderous madman for murderous madmen . When Muslims blow people up they are just following in the Muhammad 's bloody footsteps . There is no such thing as ' moderate ' Islam . Islam is and always was a barbaric death cult masquerading as a religion . If satan devised his own religion , it would be indistinguishable from the religion of Muhammad ( MHRIH ) . <h> George True 1.7.11 @ 8:19PM <h> John II 1.8.11 @ 12:51AM <p> It was n't " Allah " who communicated the Qur'an to Mohammed . It was an angel . And the angel was n't Gabriel . <p> When you think about it , though , the " Allah " of Islam appears to be a self-appointed god of utterly arbitrary Will , including most prominently the will to destroy . Not exactly the God of Abraham , Isaac , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ The one called Lucifer . <h> Jack 1.8.11 @ 12:00AM <p> Speaking of people giving in to irrational fears and delusions ! You can look to the Global Warming extremists to see that same kind of unfounded hysteria in the so called civilized world . The planet is getting older but as a civilization we are not getting any wiser just more techie . <h> Big J 1.8.11 @ 7:49AM <p> I 'm not sure if it 's been said yet , but I feel an important point needs to be made . <p> Islam is not so much a religion as it is a political movement with a religious aspect to it ( simply cover for the truly powerful members to ultimately rule the world ) . <p> As long as it is classified as a religion , human nature being what it is , Islam will be tolerated . Pretty neat trick if you ask me . <p> The three basic tenets include conversion , taxation , then destruction . That may be over simplified , but that 's Islam in a nutshell . <p> Over yonder , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ way it 's been for a hell of a lot longer than we 've been around , and nothing 's gon na change that , baby . <p> Maybe the majority of the turban-wearers want what we 've got , but if so , they have to rise up on their own . After all , we had to be pushed to our limits before taking on the most powerful military on the planet , tossing their tea in the harbor . The fact that we did it on our own makes our freedom and our way of life so much more valuable . <p> I thought for a moment that the Iranians were going to make the leap . From what I understand , the majority of them are modernized , and want to emulate the West . Unfortunately our Manchurian in Chief could n't take a few minutes off the links to give them a shout-out . Sadly , I feel this is one of the biggest missed opportunities of this administration . Many times a little encouragement is all it takes to give the little guy the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Our Middle Eastern policy ( if you can call it that ) has been an abject failure for a lot longer than I have been around . For some unknown reason , " peace in the Middle East " has been the Holy Grail , the Brass Ring of administration after administration - for over HALF A CENTURY ! Enough already . I ca n't imagine Hillary has a better reset button than the Peanut Farmer did - it has got to stop ! <p> Again , at the risk of over-simplifying , here are the only answers , as far as I 'm concerned : <p> 1 . Pull out . I mean every last one of them . Bring our men and women home . Hell , we 're not letting them fight anyway , and the 800 pound gorilla says we 'll never win , no matter what we do . <p> 2 . No more money . I mean not one red cent , to no one , no how . One thing we should know by now is that the crooks and Mullahs are the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ region is still oppressed ( I defer you to the half a century comment above ) . <p> 3 . The Chicago Way . They bring a knife , you bring a gun . They put one of yours in the hospital , you send one of theirs to the morgue . Now that 's change you can believe in . Within 24 hours of finding out who perpetrated the horror of 9/11 and where he was , we should have turned those mountains to glass . " Sorry ya 'll , but I was cleaning it and it went off ! " . Brute force is the only thing these nut jobs understand . Just look at how they live , whipped into submission over the fear of being stoned to death ? A light weight nuke would probably keep Achmadena-whatever 's mouth shut for years to come . <p> * Pardon the length of this rant , but someone 's got ta say it . <p> One last thing : <p> I met #43 back in 2008 , shook his hand . It was the experience of a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 30 minute speech by the man ( no teleprompter , no notes ) . It turns out he is not the ignorant boob that the Left would have you believe . The man is extremely intelligent , and a serious history buff . <p> I saw and understood his " Middle Eastern Policy " ( I guess you might call it the Bush Doctrine during a vice presidential debate or something ) . Unfortunately , he was viewing the region through rose colored glasses . <p> You could take out 15 dictators in that region and try to force feed democracy to 15 fledgling countries , and it just would n't work . They did n't earn it , you see . It does n't mean squat to them . Give it a few years , and you have a new , bigger , badder MoFo running the show , sending his good little Muslims over here to blow us up . <p> I have a lot more to say on the subject , but this is turning into one seriously long a$$ rant , so I 'll defer to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Satan ! 1.8.11 @ 7:59AM <h> Eric Millage 1.8.11 @ 8:12AM <p> Wow Tucker , you really kicked off quite a hearty debate ! I think this type of open dialogue is quite healthy . I found many comments vert insightful . One thing which is obvious however is our need to be able to present our points of views without personally attacking one another . I think we are all better listeners when we keep our discourse civil . <h> Who Knows ? 1.8.11 @ 11:51AM <p> Ten years or so ago , I happened to be where libraries received too many books to sell , so there was always a place with interesting free ones , which I regularly perused in order to cull those that I liked . These days the situation is vastly different . <p> Still , yesterday I marched to the local library , read the regular papers , and completed the biography of Ikkyu , who died in 1481 . What a blast from the past ! The tiny room that sells old library books sucked me in , for the first time @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and there it was---maybe ten or so FREE books . <p> Carefully I checked them out , and almost the last one grabbed my present attention , mightily--- " Breaking Ranks " by Norman Podhoretz , from 1979 ! Since these days , and for some ten years previously , or so , I 've been enjoying so much edifying content on the Internet , one of the sites that stands out is the " Contentions " part of Commentary Magazine , and this is where , of course , Mr. Podhoretz made his name . <p> Well , this book from almost THIRTY years ago is a political memoir that started out as a letter to explain to his still-young son , John , how he evolved into a " Neoconservative " . <p> What a trip down my own memory lane ! So many of the radical authors who became my " mentors " seem to have been directly involved with , if not discovered and promulgated by , good old Norm ! There 's Norman Brown and Paul Goodman , just for starters . I 'm @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ up to about 1960 . <p> Then , today , as I read my normal sparse Internet stuff , there he was---P.J . O'Rourke , with his latest witty take on it all . <p> Ah , age and aging does have its benefits and privileges . To get to receive the wisdom from those two OLD radicals , P.J. and Norman , why all I can say is---WOW ! <p> In the weird science category , it is claimed that some sensitive people can simply handle very old fragments---say an Indian arrowhead---and thus experience the whole ancient scene surrounding it . <p> Something like this is happening for moi , as I ca n't help but freely allow the timely connections in my own life to arise . That is , keeping many plates in the air , for example , I can " be " in 1979 as Norman writes this book , myself , and whatever year he 's remembering---if I was alive then , that is . I can even conjure the milieu , generally , of those years when I was n't personally alive . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the Heart to be felt , which brings me to today 's many centuries of consideration 's conclusion . <p> In Ikkyu 's time , Japan suffered horribly through a civil war that devastated property and killed many thousands , causing rampant starvation and suffering . So , let 's keep in mind those days when the " political " divide was absolute , with the actual physical fight for power so widespread , along with the entire span of time that Norman Podhoretz has lived . And , what about right now ? <p> It sure seems to me that the real chickens ARE coming home to not only roost , but to embody America 's very being . That is , what is the very nature of the complete body politic in this country , presently ? <p> Absolute partisan divide ! <p> And , just imagine the nature of all the disparate individuals who are locked into their own political " take " ! <p> The scariest one for me---me , as a youth , so nave and also certain about it all , myself ! @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ contemplate the ongoing battle between the Dems and their bitter opponents , especially at the federal level , how is it possible to do other than tremble in fear---be afraid , very afraid---about the scary prospect that so many fooled and foolish voters are happily , even if in a totally deluded manner , cruising for a suicidal bruising , as they are about to blindly vote for the jackass party . <p> I , personally , with my long life of wide experience , just find it impossible to believe that an Obama or a Hillary could ever get elected president . Surely the majority of the voters ca n't be that stupid---and , YET ! Remember the hissy fit they had in 1976 , when Dhimmi Carter conned most of us , including me , into office--- and this was right in the middle of the Cold War ! <p> Somebody recently excused the way the West has been reacting to the Radical Muslim threat , by saying we can afford to be stupid , because we are so strong . Well , just try to look forward @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ veto-proof and filibuster-proof Congress , with suicidal laws and judge nominations ! <p> Perhaps THAT will be our own version of a " civil war " similar to what Japan chose in the 1400 's , and the shock will be enough to bring America Alone onto a required war footing . I continue to believe that some kind of massive horrible atrocity must shock us , to wake us up . The current trend is NOT our friend ! <p> Finally , we could try to deconstruct the basic " mood " of the polled electorate . Something like 80% of our citizens believe the country is headed in the wrong direction . They are RIGHT ! But what are the internals ? <p> Here 's my take . It 's eerily similar to the late 1930 's , in England . That is , about 50% are buying the weak " appeasement " policy of the Dumocrats , and perhaps 30% have their informed and wise heads on straight , with the remaining 20% absolutely out of touch with reality that does n't extend beyond their own egoic @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , let this misguided majority opinion take power , and then---BAM ! A terrible inflection point ensues , to wildly shift sentiment , so that a complete turnaround occurs . I just wonder if this can possibly happen BEFORE the November elections , or really , whether we definitely must take the wrong path , once more , and tempt our existential fate . <p> Ah , another old memory just arose . Probably fifty years ago there was a famous cigarette ad , whose slogan was , " I 'd rather fight than switch " , with the speaker brandishing a black eye while smoking their favorite brand . Well , these appeasing days , it seems like the majority of Americans stupidly are ready and willing to switch , not fight ! <h> Musl 1.8.11 @ 1:25PM <p> I 'm glad to share with you the following edict given out by ' Shaykh-ul-Islam Hazrat Mufti Muhammad Idris Usmani ' of Jamia Islamia who is roughly equivalent to a ' Senior Cardinal ' in the ' Vatican ' . <p> He has issued the following ' fatwa ' ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and about those who are praising and justifying his murder . <p> Quote " Question : <p> What do the Ulema say about the murder of Governor of Punjab ( Pakistan ) Salman Taseer who was killed by his own security guard . The guard claimed that he killed Salman Taseer because he was blasphemous to the Prophet ( peace by upon him ) . However , there is no evidence of Salman Taseer 's blasphemy to the Prophet ( pbuh ) . What do the Ulema say about many people who are praising Salman Taseer 's killer ? <p> Answer : <p> " In the Name of the Merciful and Compassionate Allah , Dar al-Fatwa . Praise be to Allah , the Lord of the Universe ; blessings and peace be upon our Master Muhammad , the Apostle of Allah , <p> I have carefully read the whole issue and also read various news reports and articles related to this ( issue ) . I have also spoken to the ' jayyad ulema ' ( eminent scholars ) in Pakistan and India . <p> In the light of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Malik Mumtaz Qadri has committed ' gunah-e-azeem ' ( great sin ) by killing an innocent soul . By taking law into his own hand , by killing an innocent man , and by bringing disgrace to the name of Islam , Malik Mumtaz Qadri has created ' fasad fil arz ' ( mischief on earth ) and committed ' tauheen-e-risalat ' ( blasphemy to the Prophet ) . Same applies to those who are creating further mischief ( fasad ) by praising or justifying this heinous crime in the name of Islam . The killer of Salman Taseer is a real blasphemer to Islam and the holy Prophet ( peace be upon him ) . <p> 2 . Those individuals and groups including the ignorant ulema , misguided journalists , politicians , lawyers ' wa deegar ' ( etc ) , who are celebrating or justifying in any manner this heinous crime must be treated as accomplice in this crime . Those who endorsed a fatwa of Salman Taseer 's murder too must be treated as ' mufsid fil arz ' ( mischief mongers ) and must be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the state of Pakistan will pursue a legal case against the killer and his abettors according to their national laws , the following verses from the Quran clearly specify the punishment for Malik Mumtaz Qadri and his supporters and cheerers . " Unquote <p> So you see guys , Islam does not preach violence but it 's some of the followers who use it to justify their actions . <p> I have learned a allot in the last one day from our debate and hope you have understood the other perspective as well . <h> Big J 1.8.11 @ 7:23PM <p> Sorry , I just ca n't stand it any more . <p> Let 's parse : <p> You know , you 're rhetoric reminds me of an Iranian immigrant I met during the Thanksgiving holiday . He was well educated ( in an American university , paid for with partial government grants ) , worked for a large American firm for a generous salary , and had enjoyed the freedoms that this wonderful country affords all who reside here ( legally or otherwise ) . It took about 3 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ than thou monster actually showed his true colors , but when it happened , he did n't hold back . <p> You see , our Mohamed ( his real name ) believes that America has been responsible for the destruction of more civilization and the death of more innocent people here and around the world than any other nation in history . He believes that Americans are greedy capitalists , hell bent on conquering the world , occupying every country , imposing democracy and EVIL capitalism on each country we destroy , after killing as many innocent civilians as possible - I think you get my point . <p> While Mohamed dips his beak in the sweet glass that is liberty , he chooses to completely trash the source of that nourishment . <p> I could deal with about 15 minutes of his tirade ( he was very calm about it ) , and had to leave . I had tears of rage in my eyes as I was driving home . To think that someone could benefit so much from this wonderful nation , yet continually stab it in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I knew people like Mohamed existed , I just have never been so close to one . <p> Thank God he went back to Liberal Oregon , where I am certain he is surrounded with like-minded idiots . That stuff do n't fly down here in Texas my friend . <p> So here we have Musl ( short for Muslim , I 'm sure , but not sure why ) . Musl would have us believe that Islam is just like Christianity . In fact , according to Musl , Christians have been much more violent and oppressive , much less tolerant than any religion that has ever existed . Laughable at first , but I am starting to wonder if he really believes that , and expects us to agree ? <p> We are to believe that the genital mutilation of women , the stonings , the be-headings , the use of children as suicide bombers , the fatwa 's , jihad , etc , etc , etc are just a few radical extremists , not the mainstream ? <p> HOGWASH ( heavy on the hog ) . <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ convince any sensible person that Islam is a peaceful religion , and we should all just get along . <p> No , George Bush is not the moral equivalent to Osama bin Laden . Sorry , go sell crazy somewhere else , we 're all filled up here . <p> No , Christians have not oppressed , maimed , nor killed the innocents that the " handful of radicals " located in your peaceful religion have oppressed , maimed and killed . <p> And please do n't insult our intelligence regarding the abundant access to education that your women have . They are forbidden to go to school in a lot of Muslim countries , and you know it . Not to mention the fact that they are n't even allowed to pray next to the men , nor walk next to them ( 10 steps behind - I 've seen it hundreds of times ) , nor ride in the front seat of the car with the men . Nor are they allowed to simply LOOK at a man outside of the immediate family ( an offense punishable by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , do n't pee on my leg and tell me it 's raining ! <p> Missbosslady had it right . America 's where it 's at . You are more than welcome to participate in the religion of your choice , make as much of your life as you want , and according to a growing number of activist judges , apply sharia law in your household as you see fit . <p> I ca n't for the life of me figure out why that is n't enough for you - of course , enough is never enough . For some reason , you need to convince a bunch of uneducated and bigoted American Spectator readers that your way is not only good , but it is the right way . If we would just give Islam a chance , we would see . <p> Well , I say take your twisted so-called religion back to the desert where it belongs . We do n't want it or need it . Or do n't - whatever . As was said above : quit peddling your pig dung here . We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is going to change that . <p> Now if you 'll excuse me , I am going to go open the truck door for my beautiful wife ( the front one ) , and take her out to show off how beautiful she is ( leave the burkha in the closet , baby ! ) . She 'll stand side by side with me , free as a bird ! <h> Musl 1.10.11 @ 3:25AM <p> Big J , Just when I thought I 'll conclude , I find myself sucked back into this forum but hopefully for the last time . My response may be long but I had to answer your misperceptions . Your story about the Iranian immigrant is indeed sad . But the person is entitled to his view , something that many liberal Americans of all other religions may also have , rightly or wrongly is another debate . My question is , what has your Mohammed 's religion got to do with this . For this one Muslim you 've told me , I can tell stories of several other Muslims who love America @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ died for America . So once again religion is not the cause of your Mohammed 's views . Maybe his country of origin is Iran - did you ever think about that ? <p> About your accusation of me projecting Christianity as more violent than Islam . You are wrong my friend . I 've been saying repeatedly that Muslims and Christians have been violent in time and have justified their actions through their religions ; whereas their religions do not teach violence . I in fact take Christianity and Islam at par . Period . <p> Islam does not promote ' Genital mutilations ' . My God ! That 's the most abhor-able thing in Islam . It used to be done by very few conservatives in Egypt out of their culture . Its all but finished now . <p> Your quote , " Kids turned into suicide bombers " . My Answer : Again this is a detestable act done by the criminals and not supported in Islam at all . <p> Stoning to death on adultery is again a controversial issue which is not in Koran at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in those days for murderers since they did not have firing squads , electric execution chairs or lethal injections ( which are there in your country for capital punishment ) and beheading was the least painful of all deaths only for confirmed serial murderers and rapists . <p> About your comments on women in Islam , Quote " They are forbidden to go to school in a lot of Muslim countries , and you know it " My answer : You are WRONG ! ! ! Name one muslim country where the state does not allow woman education and support your response it with legit records . If some very few " Mormon " types in Muslim region refuse to evolve with time , you cant blame it on their religion or state . <p> Quote , " Not to mention the fact that they are n't even allowed to pray next to the men " . My Ans : Yes thats correct and there was a reason for that which you might not even understand . There is nothing wrong in giving them the liberty to pray separately in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Quote , " nor walk next to them ( 10 steps behind - I 've seen it hundreds of times ) , nor ride in the front seat of the car with the men " Unquote . My Ans : What times are you referring to ? Is this the same time when you were doing the same with Afro Americans in your country ? When they were not allowed to study with you , travel with you , eat with you and what not ( ' cause this is what I 've seen from your media before 70 's ) . Again this is not there anymore and religion anyway has nothing to do with that . Again it was Arab culture . <p> Quote , " Nor are they allowed to simply LOOK at a man outside of the immediate family ( an offense punishable by stoning or flogging ) " . Ans : Now this is complete Hogwash with a capital ' HOG ' . Put your fact straight ' J ' . THIS IS NOT CORRECT AT ALL . <p> In my discussions here I have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a great country with majority of people as good , easy going and moderate as the ones living in Muslim countries . Its some of the misguided souls such as you , there who I 'm trying to address . These hate mongers are no different from the ones we have . Who I also try to reason with and get the same crap back that i got from you . Emotional and illogical based on half baked truth . One of them is the ' burkha ' . Islam does not advise this garb , its the Arab culture ! <p> Wish you all the very best with your lovely wife . I 'm sure you love her and when you mean " show off how beautiful she is " you do n't mean " flaunt her as your trophy " ; cause it might hurt her sensitivities . I believe you respect her as a person and as your life partner , just like all wives around the world are meant to be for their husbands , irrespective of their religions , cultures or countries . <h> Bob @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 1.10.11 @ 8:16AM <p> I did n't post the above offensive comments . Some misguided muslim probably did in order to trigger a negative reaction from overly sensitive readers who do n't always follow the peaceful surats of the Holy Quran . Does this kind of bs cop out sound familiar ? I thought so . Now keep watching YOUR mirror and buzz off . <h> Jeremiah 1.10.11 @ 8:55AM <h> gary siebel 1.8.11 @ 2:31PM <p> But they are not just on the other side of the world . They are here . <p> Have the editorial " we " completed abandoned resistance to the proposed 911 mosque because the election is over ? Now is the time to escalate the attacks against it , not let the whole thing slide . It should be hammered on every single day ! No let up , no rest , no slack . <h> RCV 1.8.11 @ 2:33PM <p> Thanks , Musl for the post . It comes on a day when we have just learned that someone assassinated a Democratic congresswomen in Tucson , Arizona this morning , along with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to motive , and certainly no suggestion of religious motivation , but we unfortunately have very disturbed people here as well with easy access to deadly weapons . <h> RCV 1.8.11 @ 4:24PM <p> Once again , the children are out posting in other 's names . BTW , it appears tht the Congresswoman fortunately is still alive . I was foolish enough to rely on Fox News for the false report that she had died . <h> RCV 1.11.11 @ 6:00PM <h> londo 1.8.11 @ 2:45PM <p> The islamist mentality reminds of the narcissistic personality disorder . They ca n't admit to their own mistakes and have an extreme delusions of grandeur . Add to that their sense of entitlement when it comes to the welfare systems and we are almost done with a full analysis . And should we be surprised when the so called prophet displayed all the traits of a narcissist and when his virtues became the norm of every pious muslim the result is a cult of narcissism with a billion potential victims . <h> Ferris 1.8.11 @ 5:08PM <p> Political correctness need to Die @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of people who want to do US harm , and we have allowed them in and continue to allow them to live among us and plotting to convert OR Kill US ! ! I do n't know what could possibly be politically correct about that ? ? ? We are behind the 8 ball America , when are we going to take matters into our own hands and stand up , be heard , show where our trust really is ? ? the majority of Americans believe we have been way too soft on these issues and need to Act Now , to get the immigration and border security under control , before its too late ! ! Please stand up and be counted , join our cause to be heard and seen , go to ; http : **34;5091;TOOLONG and oin with good Christian Patriot who want to make a difference , who are uniting together to be heard . <p> Leaving them alone will only allow them to strike America directly . Has the lesson of Bin Laden been forgotten already . You ca n't run away from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Americans must sacrifice their children in the process , but freedom is not free . <h> Marc Jeric 1.8.11 @ 6:10PM <p> Let us simplify this discussion : Islam is not a religion , it is a political movement with these aims : 1 ) Conquest by force of arms ; 2 ) Forced or voluntary conversion to Islam ; 3 ) Failing that , slavery ( dhimmitude ) ; 4 ) If resistance is encoutered , then mass murder . The entire history of Islam since the 7th century confirms the above . It behoves our government to act on these uncontestable truths and suppress all adherents of this detestable and murderous political program . " Islam is a religion of peace " is a cruel joke and should be prosecuted as treasonous . <h> Shawn 1.8.11 @ 6:36PM <p> That 's because they are savages following a barbaric religion that has refused to evolve over more than an eon . Enter the apologists who refuse to call them out because they are from a different culture ... aka they are not white westerners so they should be able @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all the Jews fault anyway . <h> Dein 1.8.11 @ 7:48PM <p> Policy for THE WAR AGAINST ISLAM : " If , after any attack upon any U.S citizen , soldier , embassy , military base , or commercial enterprise , that the source of the attack , after a thorough investigation , is to be determined to be from any muslim , sharia , or jihad invocation , shall , within 90 days , be met with a full military response at least 10,000 times greater than the provocative attack , at any place to be left to the discression of the U.S.Military " . This is a policy the leaders of the " religion of peace " may understand . <h> Yephora 1.8.11 @ 7:52PM <h> benadam 1.9.11 @ 2:57AM <p> How can we offer protection for those being perseuted , when already inside out so-called ' christina ( sic ) ' ntions there are sharia courts , mosques , and politicians bending over to the spread and radicilisation of violent islam . We can pray for these people with earnest hearts , but the enemy is not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ society using all the means to gain prominence , liberalism , socialism , politics and of course the appalling weak liberal media . Its very troubling indeed tht as democracies , the awful politicains we vote for are doing nothing but bending over to placate this violent ( peace loving ) Islam . We are all responsible becuase nobody is standing up and saying enough ! <h> Jeremiah 1.9.11 @ 3:54PM <h> George True 1.9.11 @ 9:08PM <p> I guess you did n't read the available info on Loughner . He is a leftist . Two of his favorite books are the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kamph . Everyone who knew him said he was politically on the left , a liberal . <h> Asif Abbasi 1.9.11 @ 8:54AM <p> William , <p> Your article did generate a huge response . I am now eagerly awaiting articles on other innocent deaths from Drone attacks in pakistan . I am eagerly waiting for the civil society to rise against this barbariasm as well . <p> I am also eagerly awaiting at your articles on how US people are better off and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and starving millions to death , for the sake of finding WMDs which astonishingly were never found . <p> I am also eagerly waiting for writers like you to speak against Israel 's blockade of Gaza , and how the greatest robbery in the world took place . <h> missbosslady 1.9.11 @ 12:01PM <p> As if , you could convince a well read , educated , American woman that Islam today is not inherently evil . As if . <p> As if , you could convince us that the mass protesting , and multiple attempted murders over a cartoon are within the realm of decency , reason and sanity . As if . <p> As if , you could explain why the potential killing , by the Pakistani government , of a Christian mother of five is not met with widespread condemnation and similar protests by the muslim world . As if . <p> As if , we should not believe our eyes when , despite extreme peril , citizens of muslim nations manage to send out evidence of the atrocities perpetrated by their own governments against their own people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . As if . <p> As if , the shackled mind and soul of the muslim could EVER understand a truly free people . As if . <p> As if , the world will indefinitely tolerate your rhetoric and lies . As if . <h> Asif Abbasi 1.9.11 @ 11:58PM <p> Pardon my ignorance , but i really do n't know how that gives comfort to people living in U.S. knowing fully that their hands are stained with muslim blood . <p> Regarding Islam , just for a second , please take off the hatred spectacles , and just for a moment think that you really want to understand Islam rather than give in to the baseless propaganda . <p> If you want to seek truth , and by the i mean you really want to know what Islam says , just try to read Quran . If somebody says that a particular verse in Quran orders killing of someone , please try to see the context in which it was revealed . Try to understand the full ' Para ' . You see their are billions trying to defend @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the religion to be followed . If you truly wish to seek guidance and truth , you need to come from a neutral standpoint . You might need to take the leaf of the following women , who first tried to understood what is Islam before deciding whether it is the religion to be followed . http : //www.youtube.com/watch ? v=2RNScXzXH ... <h> Asif Abbasi 1.10.11 @ 12:04AM <p> You know what Mathews , you probably would have a hard time trying to prove that . <p> Before doing that , why do n't you guys try to find out the nation that was the first to use Atomic Bomb ? ? Have you ever tried to find out that even after trying to promote peace , which nation exports highest number of ammunition to the world , to kill each other ... Before you spend time figuring that out , let me help you . That is United States that exports weapons worth of USD 170 billion ( official figures , unofficial is definitely higher ) , and 60% of these arms are sold to Developing countries . <h> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on " the other side of the world . " They are here ; just in somewhat smaller numbers . <p> My own son told me he had a Muslim intern working for him who would not shake clients ' hands because her " religion forbid her to " do so . This was extremely insulting to their clients , as even the most benighted person must understand and , he was relieved when he no longer had to introduce her to them . <p> The mother and sister of a young Nigerian woman who worked for my wife were murdered , apparently by the father and husband because they refused to return to Nigeria so the daughter could be entered into a forced marriage . My wife 's colleague has since gone underground , leaving her job in the auto industry here . The father has returned to Nigeria and has never been apprehended . <p> My other son broke his friendship with another Nigerian Muslim when he refused to eat at our house telling my son , quite frankly our table was " unclean " even though I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ gladly accommodated Muslim dietary strictures ( I myself have had Muslim clients , as well as Hindus and Buddhists and was always conscientious of their needs . My Hindu and Buddhist friends have dined with me and my wife ) . <p> The mainstream press downplays these events but ; these are true accounts from my own experience . We have the largest Middle Eastern population outside of the Middle East between Detroit and Toledo and , while the vast majority of them are good people and good citizens ( my own doctor and tailor are both Arabs ; I do n't ' know nor care about my doctor 's religion-my tailor is a Muslim ) but , there is a small but growing element within the Muslim sector which has adopted either a hard or " soft " approach to jihad , honor killings-as in the case of my wife 's colleague 's family and other evil aspects of Islam . We tolerate all races , creeds and colors-as we should and must according to American principles but , we must not tolerate this evil in our midst in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <h> Asif Abbasi 1.10.11 @ 12:12AM <p> Lets decipher each of the above events : <p> ( 1 ) An itern did n't want to shake hands with men she did n't know ? How is that wrong or unethical ? Last time i checked , US was the biggest supporter of free will . Why can n't simply a hello suffice ? IMHO , you would be the one forcing someone to shake hands , because you think that is good your clientele . <p> ( 2 ) In the second story of murder , you yourself have used the world apparently . Again trying to link a murder or an act of an individual person with the religion . That is same as if i try to link *john wayne gacy* the biggest Rapist of all time , with Christian religion , and try to prove that it was religion that made him do so . http : **33;5127;TOOLONG ... <h> Musl 1.10.11 @ 3:46AM <p> I commend you for being steadfast in face of so much hate and animosity thrown at you . <p> But sometimes I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ world try to explain to the other side the real essence of Islam , the closed minds over there would just not understand . <p> All the very best and to all the moderates and rational Muslim and Non-muslim friends out there too . I 'm sure one day we will prevail over hate , lies and mischief all over this one world we have , making it a better place to live for all . Amen . <h> Tom in Michigan 1.10.11 @ 1:59PM <h> John Navratil 1.10.11 @ 10:58AM <p> Asif Abbasi , <p> An intern has the absolute right to refuse to shake hands with anyone . And the employer has the absolute right to terminate an employee who hurts his business by being culturally insensitive to his clients . <h> Tom in Michigan 1.10.11 @ 1:57PM <p> Your arguments and " decipher " are not only specious , they attempt to justify the murder of two innocent women who came here seeking freedom but died , nevertheless . <p> Who said those whose hands the intern refused to shake were all men ? The case in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ woman . The intern refused to shake any non-Muslims ' hands . <p> When I interact with say , Japanese clients here ; I do not bow because it is not expected or proper . However , when I am in Japan ; I bow in the appropriate fashion for a Westerner in Japan . I 've learned and accept their customs . <p> As for the two womens ' murderer ; the father and husband was the prime suspect and is still being sought . He had threatened them openly regarding the daughter 's refusal to be forced into marriage - which is why they fled Detroit for New York . <p> You are a perfect example of Muslim apologists for any act in the " name of Islam , " no matter how heinous and , represent the very reasons so many people have adopted a negative attitude towards your ilk . <p> Finally , John Wayne Gacy did not act " in the name of God , " Christian or otherwise . If Muslims want to be accepted in this or any nation ( an apparently dubious @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to our culture ( within reason of course , no one expects you to eat pork for example ) and do not expect us to adopt yours - although it is reasonable for the respectful to expect respect in return . <p> BTW . Only the most uninformed of people quote Wikipedia - the encyclopedia that can be edited by " anybody . " <h> Tom in Michigan 1.10.11 @ 2:08PM <p> By the way ; what is your explanation for my other son 's erstwhile friend 's refusal to join us for dinner because our table was " unclean ? " This invitation is routinely extended to all guests in our home ( like Muslims , we are obliged by our culture to hospitality to all ) and has never been refused in such insulting fashion . I respect the young man 's right to politely refuse an invitation but , the insult - whether it was intended or not - was unnecessary , wholly gratuitious . I imagine he learned we were " unclean " from his parents ? His imam ? <h> FUCKING HYPOCRITE ! 1.10.11 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ allah whereas Gacy did n't murder anybody in the name of Christ . At least he had the decency not to claim otherwise . You 're a repellent snake , an hypocrite toddler molester and a disgrace for mankind . I spit on your evil belief and I use qurans in my restroom . <h> Musl 1.10.11 @ 4:03AM <p> Tom , <p> I can relate to your concerns and appreciate your views . <p> My suggestions to Muslims following the extreme version of Islam and living in US is that they either respect the traditions , culture and law of their new land or if they do n't find it to their liking then they can simply leave US for their country of Origin or Ancestry . The ' extremist ' elements can not live in vacuum there and certainly makes it difficult for the moderate muslim community at large to live in peace side by side with their non muslim hosts . <h> Tom in Michigan 1.10.11 @ 7:04PM <p> You are mistaken taking Asif for a reasonable person . Do not patronize such a hateful hypocrite who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ how heinous . As he dishonestly " deciphered " my two other anecdotes ; he will have no honest answer to my question regarding the young man who so disrespected my home and hospitality thanks perhaps to the hateful teachings to which he , Asif and the women in Pakistan been exposed . To quote John , " there is no truth in him . When he lies , he speaks his native language , for he is a liar and the father of lies . " <p> I never learned hatred of anybody because of their religion or other aspects of their person . Indeed , I honor and respect other , particularly Asian cultures . I am fluent in Japanese , for example . However , those Muslims who have come among us to do harm or at least no good , will come to no good end themselves because , though we are a welcoming and diverse nation ; we have been aroused . <p> That being said , I welcome all , regardless of background who want to become good citizens or residents of the United @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <h> Musl 1.11.11 @ 2:59PM <p> Tim , I had supported Asif on his general pleas for not mixing a criminal with his religion . Unfortunately since yours was the last comment he had commented on ( till then ) , I just put mine underneath his . No direct reference to your column here . Having stated the above , I would want to differ from Mr. Asif 's justification for those heinous incidents that you mentioned . <p> Let me explain here Mr. Tom . For a normal law and religion abiding Muslim of this world . All the three incidents you 've mentioned are detestable . If the intern in your son 's firm had a problem shaking hands , she should not have joined in the first place or at the most should have advised her employers of her hang ups and let them decide whether to hire her or not . Her actions have been an embarrassment for moderates of all religions . Period . <p> About your incident of those unfortunate ladies getting murdered . The husband and father are murderers as per their @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ no confusion in that neither any moral or religious justification . They should be hanged . Period . <p> And as for your third incident of the Nigerian not eating food at your place . This is again an act not appreciated in Islam as our prophet Mohammed used to break bread with people of other faiths . His stand was unless you do n't make friends with people of other faiths how can you spread the good will of Islam . <p> All the three acts of Muslims in your scenarios are due to following some extreme distorted version of Islam promoted by some psycho Mullah ( priests ) , something not followed by mainstream Muslims . <p> Let me assure you , such extremists elements are also not appreciated in Islamic countries . Why do you think there are so many suicide bombings going on in Pakistan on Muslim Pakistanis themselves . That 's because they as a nation are trying to resist the 0.5% ( approx. 850,000 ) extremely violent , vocal and fanatic population spread within them and hence paying a heavy price for that . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ counting , unfortunately . <p> Hence the least these moderate muslims world over expect from the Western World is understanding , compassion and a general understanding of their true religion ( and not the religion project by our extremist element ) . <h> NO RAGHEAD IN USA ! 1.10.11 @ 8:04AM <p> Asif Yukherd , you mention this : http : **25;5162;TOOLONG ..... l ? ire ... The media would have reacted as they did when a muslim traitor shot 10 soldiers in Fort Hood : " An infortunate accident , the alleged shooter felt he was being discriminated against . Let 's not stigmatize a religion and so on ... " The usual crap from useful fellow travelers . <h> WTF 1.10.11 @ 4:13AM <h> Freddy 1.10.11 @ 7:36AM <p> I am reminded of the term " you get the government you deserve . " If the majority of these " goat lovers " are happy with their lot , then those who are n't should leave . I was all in support of our punitive expedition in 2001-4 . Now it is just wasted tax dollars . We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a few million scattered surplus firearms , and sit back and watch the cage fight on ESPN via predator drone . <p> Hey - squeamish website , honourable search around some blogs , seems a pretty overnice program you are using . I 'm currently using Wordpress for a few of my sites but hunt to transfer one of them over to a construction related to yours as a endeavor run . Anything in portion you would advise some it ? <p> Today , I went to the beachfront with my children . I found a sea shell and gave daughter and said " You can hear the ocean if you put this to your ear . " She put the shell to her ear and screamed . There was a hermit crab inside and it pinched her ear . She never wants to go back ! LoL I know this is completely

@@5135541 <p> Today , Steph says : " Also bought 3 rosarita beans and 3 classico as part of the buy 10 deal , and I got a $1 cat from Heinz . Not sure what triggered it . " Then SoapboxTray put it together from a Catalina alert at Meijer , that must probably also be at Jewel . ( The below says 10/27 , but monthly Cats would usually run through Sunday 10/28 ? hmm ) <p> janpritts noticed : " I 'm looking at the smart ones desserts ... thinking buying 2 at a time ( with the barilla pasta deal you posted today ) ... if you buy 2 at a time then they come out to 37 cents each after 2.25 catalina .... better than buying the 10 at a time price . Just FYI for someone that needs to add 2 more items to their order to get to 10 items . " <p> What was that pasta deal again ? <p> Barilla pasta is on the buy ten , save $5.00 instantly sale at Jewel this week , at $.75 each when you buy ten mix/match items . Jill Cataldo reports that the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sale , and there 's a $1.00/2 coupon in the 10/21 SS you can use to drop these to just $.25 a box . <p> Update from Steph on additional included varieties : " The coupon is good for the " white fiber " variety , and the veggie and whole grain varieties as well ( in the wording and the picture this time ! ) . I used it on 2 veggie and 2 whole grain with no problem . " <p> But a warning from Christine : " The Barilla white fiber boxes are 12 oz boxes , not a full pound of pasta . Tricky , tricky packaging ! " <p> So a buy ten mix/match/mashup idea <p> Let 's see if we can get up to 10 here -- prices shown after instant savings when you buy 10 mix/match items : <p> Buy one more small item to fill out your 10 participating items requirement , such as a Fuze or Powerade for $.50 . <p> Pay $8.85 after coupons . <p> Get back $3.25 OYNO ( $2.25 from Weight Watchers and $1.00 from Classico ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- and you have a couple of pasta dinners + dessert ! <p> Again , the Catalinas only go through 10/27 or 10/28 , so you only have a couple more days for the deal . <p> Campbell 's soup <p> Kitty got a Catalina alert : " Buy any select Campbell 's condensed soups ( excluding great for cooking varieties ) between 10-29-12 and 11-25-12 and save up to $2.50 OYNO : Buy 5 or 6 get $1.50 , Buy 7 or 8 get $2.00 , Buy 9 or nore get $2.50 ? At Jewel through Wed : <h> Comments <p> I bought 3 Classicos as part of the 10 deal and only got back 75 cents in a Cat at Jewel today . I got 2 red ones and 1 white . I guess they do n't count the light alfredo sauce since it is a smaller jar ? It counted towards the 10 and the $1 off 3 coupon worked . <p> I just looked on the Cat ad I got from Jewel and it even shows a picture of the smaller , white jar ! It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ site it is not still listed as a Cat for Jewel ? Did the Classico deal end today ? I was wanting to go back and get another set of 10 tomorrow . BY THE WAY .... those Smart Ones desserts are good ! I 'm getting 2 more tomorrow . <p> I think the light might just not be in the system properly . I got to alfredo ( not light , ha ! ) , a red , and a pesto , and I got the $1.50 . Definitely contact Catalina ... and you 'll probably just get another $1 coupon , since they never seem to see the message part where I tell them I got something

@@5135641 <h> Hello Andre , we are honoured to have you on Trance Hub . You were of course one of the first artists we treasured when we just started listening to this genre . Let 's start with an easy question ... People normally have a dog or a cat as a pet , you have a rabbit . What is it called and why a rabbit ? <p> We have two rabbits , one is called ATbunny , the other on is called Maggie . Bunny is a little bit more active than Maggie . She 's more like a little diva , but both love to sit on the couch and watch TV with us . As you can imagine my wife and I are a lot on the road , so it would be very difficult for us to keep a cat or a dog . But our parents can easily look after ATbunny and Maggie when we are travelling . We really love the two and they are a part of our family . <h> We have all grown up to your music and we call you the first superstar of Trance music . How @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ICQ messenger IDs and even names of their kids dedicated to ATB ? <p> This is of course something really special for me and I 'm really proud of it . But one of the craziest things I 've ever seen were tattooed people with the ATB logo . This is unbelievable . I mean you have to wear this tattoo your entire life . So the people dedicated a part of their body to my artist name and the music I make . This is awesome . <p> Full ; o ) . Whereby especially when I produce a new album I take up to three , four months off just to produce the album . No gigs , no other meetings or projects . During this time I fully concentrate on music and I am in the studio nearly every day . <p> Of course the preparation for this studio time already starts many weeks before when I sift through all the ideas I collected during my tours , check if I can use them for the album , search for new unique singers or create some new @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ love this production time to create something new , to surprise the people and to look forward to their reaction . On the other hand it 's of course really stressful . You have to be creative and get a lot of pressure to produce a good album during this time . <h> A clich question , but we really want to know the story behind " 9 PM ( Till I Come ) " -- the inspiration , the vocals , etc. etc . <p> It was more by sheer fluke that I had a visitor and wanting to show her my studio just before we intended to go to the cinema . On one of my synthesizers was a factory sound called " Guitar " . For demonstration purposes of the studio I started recording and played this melody . It was really cool and I continued to work on it . Finally we had to leave for the cinema and I had to save the track . It was 9 PM , so I saved the project with this name . <p> The next day I added @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and finished the track . Looking at the sample I promptly got into trouble because I was n't legally clarified to use it . So finally I had to pay for the using rights of this sample : o ) <h> A fellow DJ and fan from Germany ( @NOiZEE ) asks , why do n't you have a radio show ? <p> For me it 's very important to always be in direct contact with the people in front of stage when I 'm performing . This direct contact , communication , mood and atmosphere is really essential for me and makes a set for me emotional and unique . A radio show could never convey these emotions , which I want to share with my listeners and which are the most important thing for me whenever I present music . <h> They say it 's difficult to make sequels . What were the challenges to make a sequel for ' Sunset Beach DJ Session ' after a year 's gap and an album in the middle ? <p> After releasing the first ' Sunset Beach DJ Session ' @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Naturally , it 's of course not easy to make a sequel and as you said it was also a great challenge . Especially to convey this unique feeling of the sun , sea and beach , which was already created by listening to the first ' Sunset Beach DJ Session ' was not easy . So it took a lot of time to find the right tracks and mixture to continue this unique feeling . In the end I 'm very happy about the result and at once I received a lot of positive feedback from my listeners . This is the biggest honour I could ever have received . <h> With almost 200 tracks coming out every week , how do you keep up with new music ; is there an ATB trick procedure you may want to share ? <p> No , there is no trick . I get a lot of promos I listen to and of course it takes a lot of time to listen to all of them . So when I start listening to a snippet of a track it has to convince @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ into trash . If I like the first 10 seconds I listen to the whole track and decide if it 's something for my DJ case . <h> You always feature some classics in your compilations ; there are some great ones in ' Sunset Beach DJ Session 2 ? . What is the thought behind the same , ever thought of creating an ATB classic compilation ? <p> Well , on my ' ATB THE DJ 5 ? compilation I already dedicated a CD only to classic tracks , but this was something really special . In general it does not matter to me if a track is old or new , as long as it 's good . Perhaps I will produce another classic CD sometime in future , but there is nothing planned as yet up to now . My next project will be a new ATB album . <h> After an extensive career spanning over 15 years and seeing EDM evolve over time . What is something that still delights you about it ? <p> Every gig is something delightful for me cause every crowd is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I have the possibility to travel a lot and meet so many people all over the world . This is a gift for me and I really enjoy every second of these moments . <h> You extensively tour USA , Europe but what will it take to bring ATB to India ? <p> We already tried to organize some gigs in India , but unfortunately there were always problems as soon as we went into details . Last time for example , the promoter disappeared without a trace from one day to the other . This was really strange . Especially because it was a really big company with lots of good references . But I 'm sure we will find a new , good and reliable partner very soon to check the possibilities of gigs in India . <h> 3 replies to this article <p> Emi says : <p> 26th September , 2012 at 1:34 PM <p> Piece of great job TranceHub ! Great interview ! I love ATB 's music when I first heard these sounds and I still love it , brings a lot of memories , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @

@@5135741 <p> " People assume that we are about the ordination of women , " says Marie Langenes , an organizer of " One Spirit -- One Call " and a member of St. Andrew 's Parish in Northeast Portland . " We are about a broader range of issues . <p> People assume that they are only about one heterodox opinion , when really they have a broader range of heterodox opinions . <p> St. Francis of Assisi Portland , Ore <p> One thing that caught my eyes in this story and brought back a flood of memories is that this parish is the one I sang in for about a year . After my mother 's conversion to Catholicism she brought me to this parish and I endured it as a young atheist out of love for my mother and my love of singing . The pop/rock hymns were not objectionable to me since they had such a low theological content -- if any . Plus when I joined the church 's small ensemble choir I loved the irony of being an atheist in the sanctuary . This was rather a hippy parish back then and it looks @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ remember the first time I heard the word " Catholicism . " I went to one class on the Catholic faith and this is where I first heard the word . It sounded very ominous to me which is why I still remember it , that and the fact that the priest pretty much explained away the miraculous to me . As an atheist I did n't believe in miracles and yet it did n't quite sit right with me that the priest did n't either . I was not surprised to find out later that both of the parish priests had left the Church to get married . <p> Looking back it annoys me that my first contact with the Church had the catechetical content of a felt banner , though I probably was n't very open to the truth at that point . It just would have been nice to actually hear the truth . <p> Actually yesterday I saw on another Blog WDTPRS by Father Z that there were Protesters from SNAP at one of their meeting places to press them on this very important issue of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to SNAP . So it is not just priests but NUNS and brothers who committed abuse . <p> I entered the Church through a Paulist-run parish . Having been Episcopalian for 13 yrs before this , I knew the basics of catholicism . . . and I was a good mainstream left-liberal . But even I was surprised when our Paulist associate pastor told the RCIA group that VC1 was basically a power-grab by the Pope b/c Italian troops were knocking on the Vatican 's door and nothing else happened at that Council . When I noted that papal infallibility was defined by that Council , Father said , " Oh that . Nobody believes that ! " <p> Fr . Philip Neri , OP <p> Leave a Comment <p> Name <p> E-mail <p> Website <p> Yes , the Greek Captcha is a Joke ! <h> About Me <p> Jeff Miller is a former atheist who after spending forty years in the wilderness finds himself with both astonishment and joy a member of the Catholic Church . This blog presents my hopefully humorous and sometimes serious take on things religious @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ My conversion story <h> Blessed Miguel Pro , S.J. <p> Known as " God 's Jester " was a martyr for the faith and a man of wisdom , fun , tricks , poetry , song , and

@@5135841 <h> Largest Catalog Ever of Center of the Milky Way <p> This striking view of the central parts of the Milky Way was obtained with the VISTA survey telescope at ESO 's Paranal Observatory in Chile . It was created by combining thousands of individual images from VISTA , taken through three different infrared filters , into a single monumental mosaic . Credit : ESO/VVV Consortium , Acknowledgement : Ignacio Toledo , Martin Kornmesser <p> An international team of astronomers created a catalog of more than 84 million stars in the central parts of the Milky Way using a nine-gigapixel image from the VISTA infrared survey telescope at ESO 's Paranal Observatory . <p> This gigantic dataset contains more than ten times more stars than previous studies and is a major step forward for the understanding of our home galaxy . The image gives viewers an incredible , zoomable view of the central part of our galaxy . It is so large that , if printed with the resolution of a typical book , it would be 9 meters long and 7 meters tall . <p> " By observing in detail the myriads of stars surrounding the center of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the formation and evolution of not only our galaxy , but also spiral galaxies in general , " explains Roberto Saito ( Pontificia Universidad Catlica de Chile , Universidad de Valparaso and The Milky Way Millennium Nucleus , Chile ) , lead author of the study . <p> Most spiral galaxies , including our home galaxy the Milky Way , have a large concentration of ancient stars surrounding the center that astronomers call the bulge . Understanding the formation and evolution of the Milky Way 's bulge is vital for understanding the galaxy as a whole . However , obtaining detailed observations of this region is not an easy task . <p> The large mirror , wide field of view and very sensitive infrared detectors of ESO 's 4.1-metre Visible and Infrared Survey Telescope for Astronomy ( VISTA ) make it by far the best tool for this job . The team of astronomers is using data from the VISTA Variables in the Via Lactea program ( VVV ) 1 , one of six public surveys carried out with VISTA . The data have been used to create a monumental @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nine billion pixels . This is one of the biggest astronomical images ever produced . The team has now used these data to compile the largest catalog of the central concentration of stars in the Milky Way ever created 2 . <p> To help analyze this huge catalog the brightness of each star is plotted against its color for about 84 million stars to create a color -- magnitude diagram . This plot contains more than ten times more stars than any previous study and it is the first time that this has been done for the entire bulge . Color -- magnitude diagrams are very valuable tools that are often used by astronomers to study the different physical properties of stars such as their temperatures , masses and ages 3 . <p> This very wide-field view of the Milky Way shows the extent of the new VISTA infrared image of the center of the galaxy . These data cover the region known as the bulge of the galaxy and have been used to study a much larger number of individual stars in the central parts of the Milky Way @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ VISTA mosaic is shown as a rectangle . Credit : ESO/Nick Risinger <p> " Each star occupies a particular spot in this diagram at any moment during its lifetime . Where it falls depends on how bright it is and how hot it is . Since the new data gives us a snapshot of all the stars in one go , we can now make a census of all the stars in this part of the Milky Way , " explains Dante Minniti . <p> The new color -- magnitude diagram of the bulge contains a treasure trove of information about the structure and content of the Milky Way . One interesting result revealed in the new data is the large number of faint red dwarf stars . These are prime candidates around which to search for small exoplanets using the transit method 4 . <p> " One of the other great things about the VVV survey is that it 's one of the ESO VISTA public surveys . This means that we 're making all the data publicly available through the ESO data archive , so we expect many @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , " concludes Roberto Saito . <p> This pan video gives a closer look at a huge new image of the central parts of the Milky Way made by combining thousands of images from ESO 's VISTA telescope on Paranal in Chile and compares it with the view in visible light . These infrared data , which come from the VVV public survey , have been used to study a much larger number of individual stars in the central parts of the Milky Way than ever before . Because VISTA has a camera sensitive to infrared light it can see through much of the dust blocking the view in visible light , although many more opaque dust filaments still show up well in this picture . Credit : ESO/VVV Consortium/Nick Risinger , Music : Delmo -- Acoustic , Acknowledgement : Ignacio Toledo <p> Notes <p> 1 The VISTA Variables in the Via Lactea ( VVV ) survey is an ESO public survey dedicated to scanning the southern plane and bulge of the Milky Way through five near-infrared filters . It started in 2010 and was granted a total of 1929 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Lactea is the Latin name for the Milky Way . <p> 2 The image used in this work covers about 315 square degrees of the sky ( a bit less than 1% of the entire sky ) and observations were carried out using three different infrared filters . The catalog lists the positions of the stars along with their measured brightnesses through the different filters . It contains about 173 million objects , of which about 84 million have been confirmed as stars . The other objects were either too faint or blended with their neighbors or affected by other artefacts , so that accurate measurements were not possible . Others were extended objects such as distant galaxies . <p> The image used here required a huge amount of data processing , which was performed by Ignacio Toledo at the ALMA OSF . It corresponds to a pixel scale of 0.6 arcseconds per pixel , down-sampled from the original pixel scale of 0.34 arcseconds per pixel . <p> 3 A color -- magnitude diagram is a graph that plots the apparent brightnesses of a set of objects against their colors @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ look through different filters . It is similar to a Hertzsprung-Russell ( HR ) diagram but the latter plots luminosity ( or absolute magnitude ) rather than just apparent brightness and a knowledge of the distances of the stars plotted is also needed . <p> 4 The transit method for finding planets searches for the small drop in brightness of a star that occurs when a planet passes in front of it and blocks some of its light . The small size of the red dwarf stars , typically with spectral types K and M , gives a greater relative drop in brightness when low-mass planets pass in front of

@@5135941 <h> How to Take Full Advantage of Google+ Local 's New Review Process <h> Wednesday , Nov 7 , 2012 Updated 1:45 PM CST <p> Recently , Google changed its requirements for leaving a review on Google+ Local , formerly known as Google Places . But no name change can deter people from turning to Google to find local businesses , so it 's important to understand the impact of these recent changes and how your business should alter its review strategy accordingly . <p> To cut down on the amount of potentially fraudulent reviews and fake accounts , Google has adjusted the amount of information you have to give before leaving a review . The biggest change is the requirement for users to have a Google+ profile with their picture in order to leave a review for a business . <p> Before , any individual was able to leave a review on a business ' Google+ Local page anonymously . This meant any person , could write anything they want about your business , while hiding behind a vale of anonymity . This also allowed for some shady competitive sabotaging . By requiring people to show themselves , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ time . <p> On one token , the change made it more difficult for reviews to be faked . Plus , because people 's names will be displayed , it will most likely decrease the amount of flaming tirades against your business . However , now it will be more difficult for people to leave a review , which also affects positive reviews in the same way . So , some users wo n't want to create an account just to leave a positive review and will opt to pass . <p> The best way to combat this barrier to leaving a review is to educate your customers on both the process of leaving a review and the importance of your business getting good reviews on Google+ Local . There is no question that positive reviews on Google+ Local directly impact your business ' ranking in search . If you want to rank in the top three spots on page one , your business will need reviews from real people with Google+ accounts leaving positive reviews . <p> You should communicate this to your customers . Convince them that a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and services to them and you are likely to get buy-in to the new process . Make sure you create a strategy for how you are going to communicate to your current clients and new clients about the review process . It is generally recommended you start with your best clients . After all , why ask for a review from clients that only kind of like you ? <p> Jabez LeBret is the author of the Amazon No. 1 bestselling law office marketing book How to Turn Clicks Into Clients . As a partner at Get Noticed Get Found , a legal marketing agency , over the last nine years he has delivered over 800 keynote addresses in six countries . His main area of expertise is managing Gen Y in the workplace , advanced Facebook strategies , LinkedIn strategies , Google+

@@5136041 <p> On the most recent episode of the DIS Unplugged Podcast we discussed several rumors , ranging from new X-Pass attractions to a feud between Bob Iger and John Lasseter . A few things have already materialized ; continue after the break to find out what has already come to fruition . <p> We 'll start out with an update on Splittsville , the new bowling alley going into the old Virgin Megastore location at Downtown Disney 's West Side . Splittsville wo n't be just the typical bowling alley . Instead , guests will be able to order a full gourmet meal and enjoy music and entertainment at night . Yesterday , new concept art of the interior was released by Disney : <p> As you can see , this is meant to be an upscale bowling experience . Splittsville currently has Fall 2012 listed as an opening date . Stay tuned for more detailed information in the near future ! <p> Next up , we discussed the release of a new " My Disney Experience " app on the News , Housekeeping and Rapidfire segment of the show . This has already come to fruition as this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . All the same information as the former Disney Mobile Magic app is available in the new app . The 2 big differences I 've noticed thus far are the requirement to sign in with a Disney.com account to view wait times , and the fact that the wait times are viewable from outside the parks . Speculation is this app will lead us into the X-Pass system and possibly ticketless entry . Whatever Disney has in store , this new app and the free wi-fi being rolled out to the parks is the next step towards the Next Gen initiative . <p> Lastly , we discussed the rumored reopening of Mannequins Dance Palace and Comedy Warehouse on the Rumors segment of the DIS Unplugged . The reopening apparently has a costuming budget allocated for it and is set to take place before the end of the year . On the show , I indicated I refuse to believe anything until I see proof of the clubs being readied for operation or a significant source steps forward to reaffirm the rumor . As of this writing , I really do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is always the case , Disney can change their mind , but a new source has come forward with reliable and " close to the action " information . Of course , I 'll be watching this one closely . <p> Are you excited for Splittsville ? Do you want to reserve your ride times from home with the new X-Pass system ? Sound off below ! <h> One Response to " Follow-Up on the Walt Disney World Rumor Mill " <p> No comments yet ? ? I just wanted to say , Thommy , that I enjoyed your segment . I had no idea of the rumors board so I wanted to check that out too ! Very excited about

@@5136141 <p> Friday , September 28 th , 2012 : Are you tired of driving your same old car every day ? If yes , then we have got the right opportunity for you to grab and get going with your brand new car . <p> Toyota is certainly the leading car manufacturer in the world today . Though cars are quite expensive purchases , you should n't fret over the financing part as the company has a finance program available for you as well . <p> Lyons Cars is ( has been ) working in the car dealership industry for quite a long time now and its established client base speaks for itself . Not onlydoes the company stock branded cars from Toyota , it also sells used cars in excellent condition for maximum customer satisfaction . <p> Speaking at an occasion , the spokesperson of the car making company said , " Car dealership business has a wide scope and we have lived up to our customers ' expectations quite well . With an extensive experience of dealing with customers from distinctive financial stratums , we stock both new and used cars as well as original spare parts @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Mason City in Iowa . At the time , Lyons Cars is selling new and used vehicles including cars , trucks , and SUVs manufactured by top car brand companies . The price ranges , and makes and models for these cars are listed on the website of the company . The buyers can also view the CARFAX report next to the price of each car . <p> " We are offering different service special deals including Certified Toyota Specials , Finance Specials , Pre-Owned Specials , Service specials , and Parts Special . There are at present three Toyota specialsfor different brands of cars for the month of September which customers can avail as listed over the website , " added the spokesperson . <p> Potential customers can also connect and learn more about the Lyons Cars company through its social networking accounts and information made available over the website . <h> About Lyons Cars <p> Lyons Cars sells new and used Toyota cars and other vehicles such as trucks and SUV 's by some of the top car manufacturers in Mason City Iowa . The company offers @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ need finance to make purchases . Additionally , the company also stocks top-notch inventory of car parts by Toyota . You can contact the company by filling out an inquiry form available on the website . <h> Recent Releases <p> KeyBS , leading technology provider and member of Arabi Holding Group KSC , is present in full force at the Mobile Money Global Summit &; Expo that is part of the Connected World Forum taking place in Dubai from November 19 to 22 , 2012 at the Atlantis Palm Jumeirah . The conference brings together over 1000 delegates Read the rest <p> With exceptional levels of both business and leisure traffic in the fourth quarter , the Coral Oriental Dubai is experiencing a record year with business coming from both established and new markets , according to General Manager Tony Homsi . He said the latest visitor figures issued by the Dubai Department of Tourism &; Commerce Marketing demonstrated the Read the rest <p> Presenting the Ideal TV Setting for Making Your Home Theater Systems more Life-like Factory settings are n't the most optimal settings for an expensive TV set @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ shop but need to be tweaked in accordance with the new surroundings of your home . Houston Custom Installers are announcing their Read the rest <p> Do n't be shy due to unwanted hair ! Feel confident , look fabulous and impress family and friends with your smooth , hair-free skin with the help of New York Laser &; Aesthetics in Manhasset , NY ! Laser hair removal will give you that soft , smooth , hair-free look you 've always wanted with minimal upkeep . Manhasset , NY , November 19 , 2012 Read the rest <p> Halloween turned out to be spookily good for both the guests and the staff at Coral Beach Resort -- Sharjah . With plenty of tricks and treats on the menu , it was all about ghoulish fun for little ones . Dressed in scary costumes , the little guests enjoyed Halloween with

@@5136241 <p> *The Son Rises . Thirteen years ago , Cherica Adams was gunned down on a desolate Charlotte , NC road . Eight months pregnant at the time , she eventually died from gunshot wounds , but her son , Chancellor , miraculously survived . Shortly after the incident , investigators concluded that Adams ' boyfriend -- Chancellor 's father -- was the mastermind behind the shooting . That man was former Carolina Panthers wideout Rae Carruth , who is currently serving 18 to 24 years at a North Carolina correctional facility . Tragically , Chancellor was left with cerebral palsy as a result of being deprived of oxygen in utero as his mother lay dying . In this REAL SPORTS/ Sports Illustrated collaboration , host Bryant Gumbel goes to Charlotte to revisit the tragedy that changed so many lives and provides a gripping account of how a young survivor has beaten the odds . <p> Producer : Chapman Downes . <p> * Think About Them . More than five years into the concussion crisis that plagues the American football landscape , everyone agrees on one thing : Fewer hits to the head is better for the health of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of time spent hitting in practice , intending to reduce collisions that can have lifetime impact ; so has Pop Warner youth football , as well as many high schools nationwide . But one major sports organization has not : The NCAA . REAL SPORTS correspondent Bernard Goldberg uncovers troubling new research suggesting that the amount of brain trauma suffered in college is rewiring the brains of some of these student-athletes , making it difficult to fulfill their primary role as a student . In this expanded segment , he asks the question : What does this mean for tens of thousands of student-athletes playing college football ? <p> Producer : Josh Fine . <p> *Blue Star Fallen . In May 2009 , during a routine rookie mini-camp , the Dallas Cowboys ' indoor practice facility in Irving , Tex . collapsed during a wind and rain storm , leaving special teams coach Joe DeCamillis with a broken neck and scout Rich Behm paralyzed from the waist down . REAL SPORTS ' Jan. 2010 examination of the incident , which was nominated for an Sports Emmy r for Outstanding Sports @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ engineer who worked on the facility , and the president of the company that built the faulty structure . Now , correspondent Frank Deford returns to Texas to see what has happened to the people who were injured and to the company . <p> Producers : Jake Rosenwasser , David Scott . <p> REAL SPORTS has won the Sports Emmy r for Outstanding Sports Journalism 15 times and has received 23 Sports Emmy r Awards overall . It is the only sports program ever honored with the duPont Award for excellence in broadcast journalism , having first been recognized in 2005 . In January , REAL SPORTS received its second duPont Award , for a series of investigative reports on concussions , highlighted by the Aug. 2010 story revealing the scientific link between sports concussions and the onset of ALS . In April , the show received the Emmy r in the category of Outstanding Sports Journalism for Bernard Goldberg

@@5136441 <h> How to talk to girls without rock star credentials <p> My previous post on learning how to talk to people without feeling awkward went pretty well . It got quite a few responses and it actually helped people . <p> So I thought I stepped it up a notch and write about how to talk to girls , something a bunch of you readers have also been asking me about . <p> I 've had my fair success with girls <p> I 've talked to girls . I 've been with girls . I 've been out on plenty of dates . I even did a few cold approaches before too . <p> However , I 'm NOT a PUA ( Pickup Artist ) . <p> Yes , I 've read The Game , several times in fact , but that does n't make me a PUA . Hell , I do n't even think that 's a cool label . <p> I do n't dive deep into the culture and start approaching random girls I see on the street . In fact , asking me to do so now would trigger off major approach anxiety . <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't have a manual of tricks and hacks which I use just to get to know a girl better . I 've messed up my own dates and relationships too . <p> And , I certainly do n't have an " awesome " track record of tons and tons of girls I 've been with ( compared to my friends , I 'm nothing ) . <p> What I do know however , that talking to girls is just basic communication which a lot of guys fumble as they intertwine it with their own self-esteem . <p> That 's what I learnt mostly from reading The Game and also after some experimenting and dating for 27 years in my life . <p> It 's not about knowing the best shit in order to talk to girls , it 's about simply going back to your natural state of being yourself , hence regaining the confidence to converse with them ! <p> What confidence ? I 'm talking about that confidence which belongs to you , but you lost them after becoming a shy little boy . <p> And why did @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ yourself , or to put it simply , you made up a lot of stuff in your head about her and then you in turn started creating ( or losing ) stuff about yourself . <p> This guide is written by me , a normal guy . And by normal , I mean someone who has fucked up and made a lot of mistakes before . I 'm not a rock star . I just believe in myself , and want to be happy ... <p> ... just like you right ? <p> How to talk to girls without rock star credentials <p> 1 ) Realize you hardly know her <p> The reason why a lot of guys have a hard time talking to girls is because we tend to have a bunch of preconceived notions formed in our head about her . <p> Before we even know her , we effectively judge her for reasons like she 's really pretty , or that we like her . <p> Here comes the best part ... <p> For whatever we have in our heads that 's about her , we actually @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ need to live up to that standard . <p> Okay sure , you may really like her , but that does n't mean she 's everything you make her out to be ! <p> It 's like we owe them a living that way . <p> You do n't . <p> You hardly know her . <p> So it 's a total blank slate . Just talk to her as if you were talking to a new friend as equals . <p> That means to say ... both of you are not perfect . She makes mistakes . You make mistakes . Both of you most likely have some dirty secrets too . <p> In other words ... she 's pretty messed up yo . <p> Get that in your head . She 's not better than you . So just relax and talk to her . <p> 2 ) You 're not there to impress her . You 're only there to get to know her better <p> So all that being said , yup , you are n't there to impress her . <p> You just want to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ make it harder for themselves because they think they got to impress her . <p> They think that the entire objective of the conversation is to make sure she leaves thinking , " Wow that guy is so cool ! " or " Oh my god I 've never met someone like that he totally made me feel life is suddenly good ! " <p> Of course , if you could do that , that 's cool and all , but what 's wrong with her leaving thinking , " What a nice guy " or even , " Yeah he 's alright I guess " . <p> Let me tell you : Absolutely NOTHING wrong . <p> If you think otherwise , then well it 's some insecurity issues you got to handle yourself . <p> But I 'm telling you man , relax . Chill out . You are there to only make a friend ! I ca n't emphasize that enough . <p> You want me to break it down even more ? Okay how about : <p> You are n't there to break new ground in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be her savior . You are n't there to turn her life around as if you 're some world-renowned motivational speaker . You are n't even there to score her digits or a one night stand . <p> Do you see it 's all about expectations ? Load up on it in your head , and you 're just going to make it harder for yourself . <p> So , can you just relax and be yourself ? <p> 3 ) Do n't confuse your infatuation with your values <p> What values do you have as a person and how do they apply towards a girl or a relationship ? <p> Or , what characteristics in a girl do you appreciate ? Does she have to be smart ? Witty ? Passionate ? Fun ? <p> Whatever it is , BAM ! You forget all of them . Because you think she 's pretty and you already think you like her . Who cares even if she keeps using her phone to Tweet during dinner , the dinner you 're paying for ? <p> She may not possess any of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ You ca n't deny your feelings for her . <p> Therefore , if she appears uninterested or bored , you immediately conclude that you 're doing something wrong ! <p> That 's totally untrue . <p> If she seems uninterested or bored , realize that you are n't in the wrong . It just means you guys have no chemistry . And that means you ought to look elsewhere , which is really okay . <p> So , get it in your head that you are n't doing anything wrong . Do n't lower yourself for her . There 's just no reason to feel shitty because someone else does n't appreciate you for being you . <p> Just relax . <p> I 've personally tried conversing with girls who ignored me and appeared completely disinterested . Instead of trying further I just told myself that I could not vibe with her and obviously not suited for me . <p> 4 ) Girls like a listener <p> So open up those ears . <p> Having a good conversation with a girl or someone you like would mean you not talking @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you become the listener ? You just ask her questions . <p> Ask her about the basics : What do you do now ? What 're your hobbies ? Where do you like to go ? Which school did you go to ? <p> Do n't hog the conversation by talking about your life only , as if the sole purpose is for her to know you . Talk too much and you 'd come across as self-centered . Give her a chance to express herself . <p> This means talking to a girl consists of you not coming up with any words . It 's where the ball is her court and you do n't have to do a single thing . <p> Does n't that sound great ? You can totally relax then . <p> " Hey , what if she does n't talk much ? I 've got no chance to listen ! " . Is that what you 're thinking ? <p> Then , she must be really boring and dull , which is n't my fault . I did n't do anything wrong . I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ vibe with . <p> That 's my answer . What 's yours ? <p> 5 ) Did I mention you should just relax ? <p> A crap load of time . <p> Just chill out and relax ! <p> Talking to a girl can be easy . The difficulty level is entirely up to you . <p> Use all of the above points to adjust your expectations and it 's going to be all good . <p> Be cool . It 's not rocket science . <p> Bonus point 6 ) Approaching a girl <p> I 'm no PUA , but I did some cold approaches before . <p> I bombed a few times and also saw a bit of success . <p> Here 's how I did it : <p> Get everything the fuck out of your mind and just go talk to her like a man . <p> As per the Mystery Method in The Game , apply the 3-second rule and go talk to her before you flood your mind with insecurities and bullshit that puts you down . <p> Now , the more important point I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Is getting rejected or given the cold shoulder mean you fail ? No . <p> Because at least ... <p> ... you tried . And that 's awesome . <p> You only " fail " when you did n't bother to try ( not that I think approaching a girl or not should even decide your self-worth in the first place ) . <p> There 's no reason for me to do approaches anymore . I hated it . I felt like a weirdo making up crap just to entertain her . But if anything , I learnt to let it go and not have so many expectations just to be happy . <p> Bonus point 7 ) Never blame her <p> Or anything else for that matter . <p> If you really want to get better at talking to a girl or approaching a girl , then take full responsibility for whatever it is you do in order to better yourself . <p> No , she 's not a cold-hearted bitch just because she was n't receptive towards your approach . She 's also not a whore just because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ simply protecting herself . <p> If you think you are n't doing something right , just learn from it and move on . <p> But remember , sometimes it 's probably not your fault . <p> Get back to your natural state of being yourself and be confident again by relaxing . <p> Hope this helps . <p> Peace . <p> Now , in becoming a rock star <p> I laid out what I think are basics to talking to a girl . <p> For a normal dude like me it 's pretty good stuff already as it creates the path ahead for you in talking and approaching women . <p> Do you want more now ? Do you want to start being extremely successful in meeting women and even scoring further ? <p> Then here you , The Tao of Badass <p> I 've been looking around in finding only the best stuff to help you guys . So here you go . <p> Again , I 'm not PUA , but I 'm guessing a lot of you want it . I 'm pretty sure it can help @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lot of people who were previously

@@5136541 <h> Pages <h> Friday , October 5 , 2012 <h> Is Web Marketing a Waste of Time ? <p> I really wanted to title this piece , " Is Web Marketing a Load of Crap ? " but I think the graphic would have turned too many people off . <p> But I 'm really steamed : <p> - In the last two weeks , my Web traffic has dropped by 50 percent . As far as I can tell , I have n't done anything differently . But part of the problem could be my over-dependence on Social Media to generate traffic . These services -- Facebook , Linked In , and Twitter -- can and do change policies and features as they see fit . They also seem to be over-saturated with users generating useless crap . ( OK , I 'm as guilty as anyone ) I 'm investing a lot of time in these services , what if they go belly up ? What if they decide they do n't like me and cancel my account ? What there 's a technical glitch I ca n't figure out -- where 's the tech support ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from other users . ) Maybe it 's just me , but I get the impression that their loyalty is n't to us customers who are n't paying them a nickel . <p> Here are my specific beefs as they relate to my online book marketing : <p> - My Facebook posts are being seen by half as many people . ( A statistic called Reach , which used to average about 400 people , is now down to 200 . I still have more than 2,000 fans , but only 1/10 of them are seeing my posts . ) Here 's a possible explanation that proves that I 'm not insane . All I know is bad news about the company 's stock price appears in the WSJ all too frequently . The company seems very concerned about its shareholders , but seems to have no compunction about screwing over Fan Page owners by limiting the number of our own Fans that we can reach . <p> - Linked In just introduced what appears to be another useless feature called " Endorsements , " for enticing users to spend @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's a nuclear arms race to get as many of your connections to endorse you for all of your skills . Excellent ! Now , you can go to Linked In and just start clicking away -- endorsements will be about as meaningful as Followers on Twitter . <p> - I 've been spending more and more time trying to figure out Twitter . I post regularly , follow influential people and topic hashtags that supposedly are also followed by potential readers . Most of the stuff I see on Twitter is crap -- spam , inane comments , links to inane images . And all these folks that have thousands of followers but never tweet ? Very suspicious . <p> - And I 'm constantly getting e-mails from folks smarter than I am asking for help with their social media marketing . Something smells funny . ( If you insist on an image ... ) <p> Sorry for the rant . Am I just in a bad mood or does anyone else think that the only people getting rich from social media are the folks who own the social @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ blog useful , sign up to have it delivered to your inbox each week : <h> 22 comments : <p> I think I spend far more time on social media marketing than what I am getting in return . There is a lot more to marketing than just social media . I do n't think most people sell books from social media marketing . But you do get impressions . There is a statistic that says that it takes 7 impressions before a person will make an impulse buy . Each time I post another book reviewers opinion of my book , that is an impression . I ca n't make my viewers read the post , but the hope is that 1/4 will . ( That is another stat . When marketing , expect no more than 1/4 of your audience will purchase . ) Do you submit your books for review on book review sites ? That has been MY most effective marketing tool . Not only do I get sales from their viewers , but when I share it on social media , then I get more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of your visitors will buy a book . ( Direct mail is supposed to yield 3 percent . ) Social media is supposed to drive visitors to your site . <p> My big problem with social media : you can invest a lot of time and then the site changes its business model . I spent two years building 2,000 fans on facebook . Now , facebook will only allow me to reach 200 of them at a time -- unless I want to pay a fee . <p> Re : Reviews My book is n't done , I 'm just building my platform to hopefully impress an agent or publisher , or to sell any ebooks I self-publish . <p> Over the years I have found YouTube vids can be effective in reaching an audience and making an impression . Though I did get here from a Facebook email , I am a fellow writer and not necessarily your target reader ( unless the book were about your experience with social media marketing ) . I for one would have enjoyed the " Is web marketing load of crap @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there is something to be said for the chance at making that " one connection " that could change everything . <p> Good morning , Randy , I just discovered your site while looking at a page on Linkedin . I 'm really enjoying what I 've read , so far and might even send you a buck , on payday . I will continue to read your stuff , contingent on figuring out how to set-up notifications from you . I 'm nobody 's version of tech-minded . Thanks and hope to continue reading your stuff , , , now , where is that subscribe button ... <p> I have tried for years to deny that the effort I put into promotion/marketing ... is worth the time , energy , and money . Facing the reality that my kind of stuff , multi-cultural-racial historical literary novels is not on the radar for most Americans , there is something not " right . " From 2002 , the first published novel , I thought I was through the door . Despite superlative reviews from published authors and interested readers ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ touring , radio and TV interviews ( one , a state PBS ) Nada . For the third book , 2010 , I used social media the best I knew , plus a YouTube promo by a marketing company . I 've sent free books to journalists , had books returned unopened by journalists , and academics . <p> After an ignorant review by a Publisher 's Weekly reviewer , and all the above , plus , I am of the opinion that the celebrity society of today demands " pop star " endorsement . Remember the Oprah Book Club ? I heard that many people bought but did n't read her interviewed authors . It was because cool to have a connection with Oprah . <p> I have a non-fiction and a fiction ready to go . I am twelve years older , not well , and hit by a fallen economy . I am angry---mad--and feel terrible about the waste-pollution of time , talent , work , and money for little return on investment . Nice words do n't buy gas.A 24 year conclusion . <p> Randy : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to get Twitter and it 's value . As for FB ... " like " , we start getting into some redundancy . I do not use FB for business . <p> We are all better at some artistic mediums than others . If FB and Twitter are not working for you , I think its a waste of negative energy . I had to go back ( from this page ) to make sure I was still in the Humor Writers group : ) . I say that smiling . <p> While I have lots of legitimate followers ( lots of resources to insure this ) , only the people I really connect with and share comment interests go to my blog . Last night , I received a tweet for the world to see from a new follower . She said she could not remember the last time she went to a blog , stayed on it for 30 minutes , and it had nothing to do with her business . Wine . <p> Randy : I understand your frustration and it took me a while to get @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " like " , we start getting into some redundancy . I do not use FB for business . <p> We are all better at some artistic mediums than others . If FB and Twitter are not working for you , I think its a waste of negative energy . I had to go back ( from this page ) to make sure I was still in the Humor Writers group : ) . I say that smiling . <p> While I have lots of legitimate followers ( lots of resources to insure this ) , only the people I really connect with and share comment interests go to my blog . Last night , I received a tweet for the world to see from a new follower . She said she could not remember the last time she went to a blog , stayed on it for 30 minutes , and it had nothing to do with her business . Wine . <p> I have five books up on Amazon and Smashwords . I do n't sell very many , but I sell fairly regularly . Lately , a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and I have n't felt much like writing or doing the usual promo . I looked at my blog stats and they had gone from about 50 -60 a day to 17 . So I went in and posted the usual provocative chapters and good reviews and blogs that got good comments on twitter about ten oclock at night . I had 91 blog hits . I have a blog post called " The Blog Whore " . I feel like I know what strings to pull and sometimes I just do n't want to . I hate promo . I am not vested enough but you seem to be . You have to keep at the promo . Post provocative stuff and humorous stuff and go back and tweet an oldie if you do n't feel enlightened . And get your damn book out . I think the whole web wave about phony reviews and phony " custom " ( paid for ) covers has changed the milieu . Do it yourself . <p> Thanks for Virginia ! I 'm not sure how vested I am . I 'm @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ year ( four more months to go ) and see where it goes . And , yes , this is all nonsense if I do n't get my book out to agents ! <p> You should n't spend more then 20 minutes on social media in a day . More than that is simply a waste of time . Sitting on social media and searching for readers or potential book buyers is akin to randomly selecting numbers out of the phone book , calling the numbers , and asking the person who answers to buy your book . It simply is n't effective . <p> But that is n't to suggest that social media is a waste of time . In fact , social media can be really effective . BUT the vast majority of people do n't use it in the most proactive ways . <p> Twitter : <p> Twitter is about a quick personal connection . Of course there are people who post " I just bought broccoli " or something else inane . But authors can get a lot of millage out of twitter if they think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . A friendly message left on a new friend 's answering machine .... <p> " I 'm going to be reading from my book " Best Book in the World " tonight on the BTR internet radio show Book Bites at 7pm . Join me ! " ( link ) <p> Or <p> " I need help picking a book cover . Do you like book cover A or cover B better ? " ( link ) <p> Or <p> " Do you know any independent book sellers in Nashville ? I would love to add an independent store to my book tour . " <p> " We had a great turnout at my book signing at Barnes &; Noble last night ... " ( picture ) <p> Lots of people watch celebrities twitter and think that they need to be on twitter all day long . They get disheartened when people are n't re-tweeting their posts or engaging in conversations . But they forget that : 1 ) Most celebrities have a team of people that do the majority of the twitter posts on their behalf and 2 ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ increasing the profile of both . <p> For most authors , three or four twitters each day is plenty . You even can use a service ( Tweetdeck , Hootsuite , etc ) to schedule twitter posts in advance . This way , if you know that you will be at Barnes and Noble signing your book next Friday at 2 , you can schedule several tweet posts . Maybe one on Monday announcing the signing , one on Wednesday reminding people of the signing , one on Thursday about how excite you are about tomorrows signing and one an hour or so before the signing telling people that you hope that they will join you . <p> For my clients , I schedule 3 posts a day in advance for the week . I then suggest that the client post a twitter a day , of their own . This way , they stay engaged and the over-all feel of the social media is personal . <p> I also tell clients who are n't well established , not to get too excited about the numbers . It is so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fans and are interested in you and your work then having thousands of followers who do n't care about you or even know who you are . This is the problem with paying for followers . You are paying for empty numbers . Not for fans . <p> The real benefit of Twitter for authors is that it can create impressions . It creates movement and dialog , especially if a twitter feed is embedded on their website . Retweet positive reviews . When someone sees that Jane liked your book , they are more likely to tap on the link and check it out . Retweet blog posts . If you have an informative title , funny title , or otherwise intriguing post title , it leads people to tap on it , taking them to your blog and potentially to your book . <p> Twitter is a bit like the impulse buy items at the checkout counter . Dangling a tempting little tweet in front of people can result in a purchase or at minimum , a connection that can turn into a purchase later . <p> Facebook @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a place to connect with their family and friends . To post funny pictures . To express their religious or political feelings . So personal facebook is n't really appropriate for authors to connect with fans . <p> Facebook pages , which were supposed to be designed for businesses , do n't really allow you to connect with people in an effective way . In an attempt to monetize facebook , the powers that be have made it very difficult for you to dialogue . In fact , people have to really go out of their way to connect with you and get your updates . As it stands , most of the things that you post on a facebook page will be seen by no one . <p> So , to use facebook effectively , you really have to think ahead and divide your personal life from your professional life . This is something that I personally failed to do and now have several thousand people on what has become a sort of catch all facebook page . <p> I suggest that clients keep their personal facebook page personal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . They can then use the professional page for more formal bits of information . If you think of your professional facebook page as your own press release site , it makes more sense . <p> Do n't make the mistake of making a new fan page or professional page for every book . Instead , you might be **30;2493;TOOLONG ( as your personal site ) and **37;2525;TOOLONG ( as your professional site ) . <p> It should be noted that facebook , because of the difficulties is falling out of favor with companies , especially mid-sized companies and small businesses who simply do n't have the ability to pay to connect . The current facebook business model is designed to allow major companies to connect ( Coke , Nike , etc ) but is n't really friendly to anyone else . This may change in the future as facebook continues to tinker . But as it stands now , your fan has to find your page , like it , and then go into settings to allow your updates to appear on their page . Most people do n't @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Frankly , most other social media is a fad based . There will come a day when your thousands of pineterest links will go the way of myspace . And believe it or not , facebook and twitter will probably be gone one day too . So dedicating your life to social media is simply not effective . BUT , in the meantime , using it effectively can and will bring you fans and ultimately book buyers . <h> About the Author <p> Randy Ross is a fiction writer , performer , SEO consultant , and former executive editor for PC World magazine . His short stories , humor , and erotica have appeared , or will appear , in The Drum , Black Heart Magazine , Side B Magazine , For the Girls , Bizarrocast , Calliope , and SenSexual : A Unique Erotic Anthology eBook . He is completing a novel with working title , The Loneliest Planet : A Handbook for the Chronically Single , which he plans to circulate to agents in 2013 . His one-man show The Chronic Single 's Handbook , based on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ festival . <p> All rights reserved . Material on this site may not be reproduced or used in any manner without the express written permission of the author . Linking to the site is appreciated . Please contact : Randy Ross at randy@randyrossmedia.com with any questions . <p> This Web site expresses the ideas of the author . The content is not intended to be advice . I explicitly deny any liability for

@@5136641 <h> A Little More Info on the Raptor and Libya <p> Air Force Secretary Michael Donley this week shed a tiny bit more light on the whole mystery surrounding the lack of an appearance by the F-22 Raptor in the skies above Libya during Operation Odyssey Dawn , saying the plane would have been used if it was needed . <p> Donley told a reporter at a Tuesday morning breakfast in Washington that the plane would have flown in Libya if its capabilities were viewed as a requirement for the operation . When pressed for more on what capabilities were needed , he waited a few seconds before saying , " multirole , maybe ? " <p> This makes a lot of sense given the fact that the Libyan op turned into an air-to-ground fight pretty fast and the F-22 is optimized for high-end air-to-air combat . <p> This comes about a week after Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz told lawmakers that the F-22 was left out of Libya due to the fact that it was based too far from the operation compared to older fighters that were already based in Europe . <p> Former Air @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that explanation and offered his own take here . <h> Join the Conversation <p> Lets see three weeks , three excuses for the no show of the F-22 in Libya . Lets review , week one . Communications problems with NATO aircraft and needed a Global Hawk in the air to communicate with US forces and each other . OK Week Two . Only deployed only in the CONUS , no infrastructure in NATO for the F-22 . This of course ignores the deployment of the Navy 's E/F-18G Growler which effectively shut down the Libyan Air Defense System , note there is no reported firings of a single ADM so far in the Libyan air war . Now week three , well we would have sent it , if was needed , but really not as a multi-role fighter . Lets see the NATO altitude for ground attack in Libya is 15,000 feet , it see all that is required is a bomb truck . Our smart weapons at that altitude are not very . The higher you release a weapon the greater the CPE . At 15,000 ft. @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ being measured by Zip Codes . <p> The 45 2000 lb. bombs release by the B-2 's ( at classified altitudes ) missed their targets by so much that when it rains a couple of times in Libya the country will have it 's own lake district , for future Islamic Poets . <p> At 15,000 ft. lasers no longer work , moisture in the air deflects the light , and JADAMS II 's go back to being plane old dumb bombs with a $50,000.00 kit on them . So I guess the F-22 with two bomb bays would n't be all that effective . Which begs the question , just what can the F-22 do for the US air efforts that need doing now that is not being done by an existing platform and done a lot cheaper ? <p> Just a bunch of cr** in trying ti justify a major procurement screw up . Anyone knows what happened to the Stryker Mobile Gun Unit , you remember the auto loading 105mm canon on a wheeled Stryker that was to be a " Game Changer " ? <p> The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of recoil , the M-4A4 has about 3 lbs . the M014 about 16 lbs . and the WW II M-1 19 lbs of recoil . Is just more then the GI can handle . Also there are accuracy problems , to small of a blast radius , problems with how log it takes for the optical sights to find and fix a target and no build in 5.56 mm weapon for self defense of the operator , which mean the XM-25 gunner has to carry two weapons or an additional 9 lbs. , to a ground pounder that a lot of extra weight . <p> we have see in libya one excellent aircraft , who was enter in libya with all defense system and libyan planes ( yes not recent ) , he have make and have bomb target at the ground , that 's the french rafale . All US airplanes have waiting the tomahawk bombing , and in all time they do n't will move because libya have SAM systems Some f-22 was suffisant for destroy libyan plane , he was furtive or no ? no one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ joke , just one propaganda of US superiority.And now we see the f-22 receive some f-35 furtive " paint " , why ? furtiv fighter jet was one big joke , one f-15 silent or one rafale was largely suffisant and they have the technology for catch one " furtive " jet ... BIG JOKE nothing more <p> Wake UP ! ! ! F-22 is DEAD ! ! ! ! ! Stealth is DEAD ! ! ! ! Thank you " General " ( I am Worthless " Merrill Anthony " Tony " ) McPeak and of course Admiral " We must have 1000 additional 19knt Afterburning Ships , so to stop the madness I am now the Chairman of the JCS " Mullins , and of course the Prime " Give me additional Funds at 15% Profit after cost " Integrators for totally SCREWING Up the Air Force and Navy with your " Let put everything into Stealth " ! ! ! Your Legacy Continues ! ! ! ! ! What ever happened to General 's with courage ? ? ? For instance , Curtis LaMay , and others @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ! The Folks we have in these positions now are Ass Kissers and leaches to the Integrators ! ! ! ! They can not make a decision in regards to anything , in fact you can not touch a F-22 , F-16 , without contacting Lockheed for Permission ! ! ! The Military Has turned into a Political Machine instead of a " Department of War " that when the Secretary Shows up people listen ... We have to be Politically Correct ! ! ! Go Politics , Go Wall Street ! ! ! Let 's purchase another useless bomber ! ! What the Hell is wrong with the B-52H ? ? ? ? We can hit all the Grass Huts and Camel Depots from Miles out ? ? <p> We all fully know now why they Took the " A " off the F/A-22 as orginally intended .... It can not attack anything , it is now an A/A Specialist against High Value Enemy Fighters that now see the F-22 coming with their new APG-79 type radar and IR type sensors , that is also utlized on the SA-21 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ We will see the F-22 platfroms at the front gate shortly ! ! ! PS .... 20 Years and no Connectivity , you have to love that. ! <p> Byron , come back to us when you actually understand how the JDAM works . You do not . <p> " Our smart weapons at that altitude are not very . The higher you release a weapon the greater the CPE . At 15,000 ft. the JADAM II with a 2.5 meter CPE goes into being measured by Zip Codes . " <p> 1 . JDAM is an INS weapon kit that just happens to use GPS as a back up . 2 . The dropping aircraft first has to have a good INS fix . 3 . Some aircraft ( B-1 , B-2 and others ) use a radar fix or an off-set radar fix when dropping the JDAM . This gets CEP down to 2 -- 3 meters -- or less . 4 . Flight time is around a minute or less for this weapon . Your zip code and altitude theory is flat-out wrong . JDAM has been @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the CEP stays about the same . <p> Not good to depend on Schwartz and Donley . These are the guys that fib in front of Congress stating the F-35 is critical to national defense . <p> Again for some needing a ride on the clue-train about the F-22 . When you actually have one about how the F-22 , and the AN/ALR-94 actually work , maybe you will start to understand things . The JDAM equipped F-22 would have been find for fixed and known very long range SA-5 sites . These are not mobile sites . Ditto with some of the low band radar . This is what you use to take down threats early in a war . The F-22 and the F-35 are both multi-role aircraft . One is primarily air-to-air and the other is primarily air-to-ground . Well , assuming the F-35 , with only 4 percent flight testing done and a cost that is more than the F-22 , ever gets fielded properly . Donley and Schwartz were wrong about that too , but hey , media sources still quote them as if they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ makes stuff up as he goes . He will be completely unable to provide ANY citation regarding the type of weapons actually dropped against ground targets . As you said , why would you drop laser-guided munitions which require a painter on the ground or a relatively stable airborne designator , when you can drop INS/GPS bombs on *known navigational coordinates ? * <p> Byron -- @ELP is exactly right regarding the JDAM . The JDAM is an INS weapon with GPS aiding and the higher the altitude , the more time the GPS has the opportunity to lock on making CEP ( not CPE ) smaller . If the JDAM were only a ballistic weapon then your theory might hold some water , but even the oldest aircraft in our inventory can deliver ballistic weapons with a fair amount of accuracy -- in the 10s of meters . Additionally , laser designators do not have problems with absorption at those altitudes . They operate fine on clear days ... you might want to check your data before making some of these radical statements . <p> As for EJ Remmington @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ much still alive . However , a better argument might be that we can no longer rely on stealth technology alone , as was proven in the air war over Kosovo . That is why stealth is merely one tool in the toolbag of airpower tricks . <p> This is pure speculation , but has anyone considered the possibility that the reason the F-22 was n't used is because the risks outweighed the benefits ? <p> What I mean is that the F-22 still has some very sensitive technologies on board and that there was no compelling reason ( other than a political statement ) to use the F-22 in the operations in Libya when all of the other aircraft in the inventory can accomplish the job without incident . That is with the exception of the F-15 that had an unforeseen aircraft malfunction . A person in their right mind would only use the F-22 when absolutely needed and would n't risk showing any potential adversary the true capabilities of the F-22 . This hypothesis finds itself inline with some of Lt Gen Deptula 's comments regarding the F-22 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said , although there may have been some political benefits of using the F-22 in Libya , like quieting some of the skeptics in congress or those in this column . That is no reason to show the cards up the USAF 's sleeves . <p> Deptula and Schwartz need to find a new Job at Lockheed Martin . They are both a complete waste as Air Force General 's . The DOD is not looking for Leaders ; they are looking and currently have Politically Correct Nightmares . They allow the Integrators to Drive the Battlespace . Another reason why they TOOK THE " A " away from the F/A-22 as originally designed . The SA-21 GROWLER / S400 Triumph Long Range TABM/SAM along with the IR and Radar data currently integrated on the new and old advisors platforms fully exploits the F-22 from the Augmenter to the Inlet . They have had 12 Years to exploit Stealth Technology and they have . The " Generals " , ( I am sorry , Integrator " Talking Heads " ) are blowing Smoke up Congress 's A &; &.; JSF @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ( Bring another thousand ) , only worse , they are continue to manufacture this none conductive , pylon hanging worthless piece of garbage . <p> The EA-18G has not been deployed yet .... LOL ... It is still in Test . BTW : This platform is the only serious manned platform that has a path into a TST . JSF and F-22 do not have this capability . The Air Force and General " ( I am Worthless " Merrill Anthony " Tony " ) McPeak decided during his tenure that we did not need the E/F-111 or the B-52 SPJ Platform . He decided in his infinite wisdom , ( including screw up the Air Force Uniform for a while ) , made the decision that Stealth was the way to GOOO ! ! ! YEEHAAW ! Now the Navy has to escort Air Force Platforms into High Threat Targets with the EA-6B or in the Future EA-18G . Either way the Air Force now lives in a Fantasy land . All our adversities have had over 12 years to exploit Stealth and they have completely . We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the Australians RAAF see the light . They are purchasing EA-18G for this very reason . <p> Hey Byron does the Libyan ministry of propaganda pay good ? I might need a new job one of these days . <p> It has already been covered but the accuracy of the JDAM is n't effected by altitude . The Stryker MGS was never a " game changer " but it is in service and proving useful fire support . The XM25 has some kick to it but I rather doubt it has 69 lbs of felt recoil . <p> Meanwhile why should we bother flying our F-22As in circles over Libya ? It would be wasting hours on the airframe and nothing else . <p> Are you the same person as EJ Remmington ? You sound a like and you 're claims are pretty nonsensical too . The F/A-22 designation was an effort to better advertise the aircraft 's ground attack capabilities to politicians too busy wasting money on pet projects to buy the number of F-22s we need to replace the F-15 . <p> There is a story behind @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be two variants , the F-18 and A-18 , yet technological improvements allowed one variant to have the features of both . Rather than just calling it the F-18 ( or A-18 ) the Navy went with the F/A designation in order not to piss off either the fighter or attack pilot community that was still rather separate at that time . Although technically the definition should probably have been A/F-18 . <p> The EA-18 Growler is on its first deployment Mr. Miller . You should bring yourself up to date . That is not to say that the airplane does n't have a few issues but it is out of test . In electronic warfare everyday is a test to keep up to date . Was in the community for a long time -- in fact when the EF111 came out and the USAF came to Whidbey for an assist in operational uses . <p> As for the EA6B -- USAF crews are integrated within the Navy Command structure and fly the EA6B out of Whidbey Island . Pay a visit and you will be blue all over the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ direction -- well I guess it is all about being purple . McPeak was n't the sharpest person around ecept with his ego . And it ws something to behold ! ! ! ! <p> The question we should be asking is why the f*** did this country waste the money on an aircraft they are not going to use , ca n't communicate with other platforms or even deploy to Afghanistan . This is possibly the worst waste of tax payer money . It 's like buying your kid a brand new toy and then throwing it away . We really need to get all these f*cking idiots out of capitol hill and get some people in who do n't have their head up their ass and actually do something other then when election time comes around . <p> Why would putting hours on the airframes even matter at this point . Most of these aircraft probably have less then 10 hrs on the frame anyways . An aircraft is made to fly not be a hangar queen its entire life . <p> First the US 's AO was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't include Tripoli . If any of you bothered to notice that the video of all this is very suspect . Some of it appears to be recycled from Afghanistan and when there is what is clearly a Libyan shot it is most often a single vehicle and I at least have see nor heard of any building damaged or destroyed by the Americans . All of the reported structural damage has been done by French and other NATO aircraft . <p> Last weekend a US raid killed 13 rebel fighters . The aircraft , believed to be an F-16 was operations at 15,000 ft. plus above cloud cover . The pilot had no visual , not FAC on the ground and was operating off pre-assigned target coordinates . This is not air support but blind bombing . <p> I would suggest that some of you actually go to the , mil site and look up stuff but , naw then you might be able to give a reasonably good argument rather then you personal attacks , so just stay stupid and keep attacking . <p> The F22 is n't @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were doing prep work for deployment . I remember that story , so clearly they thought they might be relevant and possibly deployed . So the notion that it was too far away is BS . The problem there is that was testimony a military officer gave to Congress . That matters . It was n't true . <p> Now given the ad hoc come as you are party this was , clearly the NCA did n't give the military much heads up . So we went with what we more or less had in theater . Nothing wrong with that , of course other than it is n't accomplishing the stated goal which is to get rid of Qaddafi . Gen Ham today said it is very unlikely the rebels can topple Qaddafi and even raised the notion of ground forces of some nation being required . <p> Beyond Libya though , obviously the whole of the middle east is sort of up in the air . We do n't know what government , if any , could be next . It looks like Yemen is most likely , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we do n't know and on top of that , we do n't know how Iran or Syria might react , how this might affect Israel , and clearly have no idea how this all plays out , it seems pretty obvious to this layman that the USAs alleged premier air dominance fighter should at least be deployed in the region just in case . I doubt the skies over Virginia will be compromised . <p> I agree ... thought they were still in test at Whidbey Island and had not yet been deployed . My mistake . However , the Air Force should have their own platform for EW or purchase their own EA-18G 's in the future . The Air Force keeps their EWO Officers up to date thanks to the Navy . However , under the current conditions both the Air Force and Navy should jointly develop EA capabilities moving forward . The Air Force 's answer to all issues is stealth , until you dig into the current threats . Once digging begins they discover the Air Force needs EA and EW Support , thus the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . However , they would rather continue to drop funds in the bottom-less pit of purchasing platforms such as the JSF and F-22 that are now Targets . Maybe they will purchase our old EA-6B . We could call it FMS ... LOL ... I knew Merrill myself . He was a waste of humanity . General Creech , Fogelman and Russ were the Best in the Business at " Killing People and Breaking Thinks " ! ! ! <p> Byron , for someone posting on a Defense News/Technologies website , you are remarkably ignorant of how USAF weapons systems operate , particularly the JDAM system . You might consider doing a little studying/research before you make completely false statements ... as you are just embarrasing yourself . And if you are not , I am embarassed for you . <p> The F-22 will never be flown in combat , we have had 3 wars and usually systems are rushed in to at least put them through their paces . But the F-22 have never flown anywhere near them . And it never will . <p> There is a good @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ spin the F-22 is fleet of prototypes for a failed design . <p> Good God people . The F-22 is real and here so get over it . Are you going to wait for all the F-15s to break in half ? Or maybe we can just keep adding pounds on the F-16 ? I mean what 's the point of all this hatred towards the 22 and 35 ? It 's not a blue marble that you take to your friend 's house to show that you have a blue marble . And in 10 years when there is some other threat more sophisticated you will be the same people complaining that we have no plan to address it ? These are enormously complicated weapons that happen to fly . Its a miracle they work at all . <p> Lets see , beside the really lousy PR from the USAF brass and the idiocy of most extreme F-22 advocates ( on both sides ) , lets look realistically . <p> A F-15E that was already in theater could carry AMRAAM , Sidewinder , A targeting pod , GPS/LGB bombs @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ! The air threat was , shall we say minimal , or would non-existant be better ? A F-22 can carry AMRAAM and SDB1 for use against fixed targets and would have to be deployed to the theater . Yeah I know which aircraft I want for the mission of flying around over the front . Those SDBs are going to be awesome against hardened aircraft shelters and tanks ! <p> Clearly the F-22 was critical for success . The hundreds of , I mean tens of , OK zero losses to date seem to support that , not ! <p> yeah , you have learn the f-22 propaganda , that 's good . But now , why no f-22 in europe ? to many enemy in america ? canada ? mexico ? brasil ? why f-22 do n't fly with others foreign aircraft ? why foreign aircraft need cut their radars technology when one f-22 was in the sky ? he was furtive or no ? if he was so excellent , why USDpt stop it ? USA will use it against N.Korea and iran ? what is aircraft @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ more old <p> Why american do n't understand that was just one big propaganda of power , just for have the better generation ? saying he was furtive for give the sentiment to others country , we can be every where and you ca n't know that ( scary no ? propaganda of power no ? ) Now others country make 5th gen fighters , and now USA envisaged one 6th gen , when we know f-22 and f-35 programs , be happy for the next . I 'm sure in 30 years the f-22 was furtive but now that 's over , all technology have evolute , this technology is capable to follow one furtive jet , not the same emission like one f-16 , but she can see it Just wait when the f-35 was in service in europe and you know at this moment the reality of the furtive jet , one big propaganda today like the russian or chinese jet . the real question : why the f-22 ? <p> Actually it was the McDonnell Douglas/Northrop YF-17 that was in competition with the GD YF-16 for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out of that to replace the A-4 , A-7 , and F-4 . <p> Attemping to covert an F-22 for carriers would cost way too much time and money , and then everybody and their mother will be pissed because it 's taking too long and taking taxpayers money and blah blah blah . <p> Army Gen. Carter Ham , head of U.S. Africa Command , told a Thursday hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee that the military situation in Libya has developed into a stalemate . Gen. Ham 's assessment may actually be a bit optimistic , as there were reports yesterday of " mass panic " among the rebels near Ajdabiya and their total defeat seems more likely than a decisive victory over Gaddafi 's army . <p> I am well aware of the history of the F/A-18 program and indeed the YF-17 was selected for further development over a variant of the YF-16 . However the Navy originally intended to purchase two variants , the A-18 and F-18 . These were specialized for their respective roles . Advancements in technology made this unnecessary however and one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ switch . <p> During the time the Navy had separate " attack " and " fighter " communities . So they went with the F/A-18 designation to please both groups of pilot and created the VFA Strike Fighter Squadrons . So the F/A-18 began to replace the remaining A-4s , A-7s , and F-4s . <p> In the late ' 80s the Navy 's plan for their future aircraft included the NATF and A-12 Avenger II . The A-12 had been selected over the upgraded A-6F Intruder . Yet the A-12 was canceled in 1991 and the A-X program was started . When the NATF was canceled the A-X program became A/F-X and included requirements for additional air-to-air capabilities . <p> During the ' 90s the F-14D Super Tomcat faced serious opposition , and the Super Hornet was proposed as a lower cost alternative pending the introduction of the A/F-X . The Super Hornet was selected over proposals derived from the F-14D and a few years later the A/F-X was canceled due to budget issues . Now the F/A-18E and F/A-18F are the main aircraft of USN aviation . Eventually @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be replaced by the F/A-XX . <p> The Super Hornet is a good aircraft and certainly will serve us well for the foreseeable future . Yet I do believe we will need the F/A-XX by the mid 2020s or so . <p> Info from some buddies in the area say the low flying A10 's have accounted for more dammage to lybian forces than any aircraft or country but of course no one politicaly wants it to get out that the least desired most basic design aircraft in inventory is doing most of the effective work and destruction , AC130 kills are not being reported either . The so called outdated birds of prey that generals say are no longer needed are whooping but over the higher priced toys and no one wants it to be known for fear it will kill thier arguments for more tech and gear . <p> I wonder if you know how JDAMs actually work . They do NOT need laser guidenace , they use INS with GPS for reference signal so weapons always knows where it is at . JDAMs and SDBs are not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ significant impact on accuracy . <p> What do you base the accuarcy of the B-2 strikes on ? I have my doubts about your synopsis . <p> There is plenty of infrastructue in the European theater for F-18 airframes and any comparison to the F-22 is moot . <p> The F-22 is a F-15 A/B/C/D replacement , not a strike acft . As you pointed out , Lybian defenses were rolled back easily mitigating the need for the F-22 . The excuse given about communications is just BS since the F-22 performs very well in exercise with US and allies participating . I do not know why the DoD thought we would buy that reason . <p> So ... what does this have to do with JDAM accuracy and theory of operation Byron ? Nothing . According to your last post I have to assume you 're telling us an F-16 dropped an unguided munition and mistakenly killed 13 rebel fighters due entirely to the inaccuracy of the weapon ? <p> I assume you 're talking about the incident outside of Brega . This was mistaken identity of a vehicle @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ claim of pre-dertermined coordinates on an erratically moving vehicle column of light trucks somewhat dubious , but no more so than most of your claims . <p> Agreed , let 's not use a highpowered chemical laser to trim our facial hair and show our potential enemies just what our strengths/weaknesses are , as well as give them the opportunity to capture one for further study/use against us ( Russians did n't mind trying to go in covertly to Israel under the guise of being Lebonese , who says they 'd be opposed to " loaning " GaDaffy some equipment to drop one of these birds ? ) <p> " Yes , why develop this thing that discharges a projectile inaccurately and takes a minute to reload ? Our crossbows work just fine " Last words before the rifle was refined and used to kill the guy that said this . <p> Right on ... I was clarifying what Mr. " Viper " so eloquently stated . I think the Super Tomcat and Attack Super Tomcat would have done just as well as the Super Hornet if they went in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Congress does n't want it know that when they finally retire , they get 100% pay for life care of Social Security , and the rest of us Americans get the big screw . <p> I 've always through that AC-130 's should get lighter , better weapons , radar absorbent materials ( if they do n't already ) and enhanced optics &; targeting equipment to make them more effective regardless of weather ( can not think of a way to have them operate in daylight except if 100% certain all AA weapons nuetralized ) and that A-10s should be networked to make them even more effective at the brilliant job they already do . Neutralize the AA and use the 22 's to maintain air superiority , and let the ACs and A-10s wreak holy hell on the enemy . Booyah . <p> Nothing wrong with the B-52H in the right environment ( other than it is 50 years old and parts can be an issue ) . I would not want to take one into a heavily defended target . <p> Considering how well the bomber force has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bombers being useless shows how much you do not know . <p> Cotact Lockheed fpor permission ? Where in the blazes do you get that ? These are not leased acft . Never worked F-22s , but did F-16s and the only time I recall contacting manufacturer was due to a cracked wing that had to be replaced ( in the field at Kunsan ) . But then again any time you have major failure like that you would contact depot or manufacturer . <p> Stealth is a lonnnng way from dead . If this had been Syria or Iran instead of Libya you would have seen the F-22 . <p> You wrote : " Last weekend a US raid killed 13 rebel fighters . The aircraft , believed to be an F-16 was operations at 15,000 ft. plus above cloud cover . The pilot had no visual , not FAC on the ground and was operating off pre-assigned target coordinates . This is not air support but blind bombing . " <p> Yesterday the Nazi uh ... N.A.T.O . aviation struck several rebel vehicles again , but this time @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ammunition , but they missed none of the rebel vehicles either ... <p> The problem was / is Intelligence / intelligence ( with a minor " i " = as in I.Q. ) , which runs so low in this campaign that it actually starts to resemble a remake of the Crimean War ( 1853 -- 1856 ) or of Lebanon 2006 or of Afghanistan now : According to this " Yahoo ! " article below , it looks as if in the end looney , isolated , besieged , outnumbered , abandoned , unarmed dictator Kaddhaffi will still defeat three nuclear powers + the rest of N.A.T.O . + all other Arab forces + all U.N.O . forces TOGETHER AND SIMULTANEOUSLY ! ! ! <p> How does any soldier or mil buff POSSIBLY conceive such a vision : Total defeat and humiliation of the Western and Middle Eastern Hemisphere by Kaddhaffi , as if Kaddhaffi is some reincarnated Rommel ? What next ? Will someday 's headlines be like " Panic Of Kaddhaffi 's Counter-Attack Grips Pentagon " ? A few weeks ago all this would still have sounded @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , when Kaddhaffi threatened to invade the Netherlands ) , but now , in this present conflict , I 'm REALLY NOT so sure anymore how to place my bets ... <p> I guess it 's true what they say : It 's much , much easier to defend than to attack ... <p> But with such a disproportion of forces , too ? Did the U.S. brass stand too close to a F-$$ , or what else turned them into such resounding , epic , FAT FAILURES ? ? ? Modern U.S. American generals -- EVEN MUSSOLINI WOULD FEEL ASHAMED OF THEM ! ! ! ! ! <p> ( And guess which neutral , economic and military Super-Power on the sideline will be THE ONLY buyer of A-L-L of Kaddhaffi 's oil next ? Was that part of " Israel " ' s / France 's / the U.S.A. 's / N.A.T.O . ' s film script for this glorious operation , too ? ) <p> But back to the tactical level , to that second friendly fire incident which I spoke of above : The situation on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by both opponents ' forces . What is a retreating loyalist vehicle ( = a " legitimate " target ) to a Western fighter-bomber pilot now , is a pursuing rebel vehicle -- occupying exactly the same spot ! -- ten minutes later . According to French newspapers , THAT 'S how the second attack by mistake came about : It happened while the rebel frontline forces were storming too fast into Kaddhaffi-held territory , and N.A.T.O . was n't kept updated enough . N.A.T.O . was still looking at old maps . <p> All of which makes me wonder : Ca n't N.A.T.O . dispense a single , old spare radio or second-hand mobile phone for all the rebels , so that the latter can constantly transmit the fluctuating front-line back ? Or do they prefer to just drop another half billion $ worth of ordnance blindly ? What else are all the rumoured Western special forces doing in Libya , if not observing and broadcasting / F.A.C.ing from the front : Sight-seeing ? <p> No one may have noticed , but you 're absolutely right about that one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ C.E.P. of I.N.S.-guided ammunition REALLY increases with distance / flight length , and not just by a few meters per every 10 kilometers covered . That 's why the I.N.S. systems of ships ( including of submarines ) and of aircraft ( including of drones ) need to be CONSTANTLY calibrated , otherwise they would n't be able to find a continent on the other side of an ocean . ( I 'm a private pilot , I should know . But are there no other , professional pilots or electronics experts on this Web-site , only former infantrymen ? ) <p> Continuing to purchase the JSF at $150,000,000.00 + and rising each times 2600 ... Humm , there is no reason to purchase a manned Aircraft when we have JASSM-ER , ALCM 's , Predator , Global Hawk , etc ... etc ... We could build thousands of long-range standoff missiles that can Kill IADS of any Country . Stealth is dead ! ! ! F-22 is dead ! ! ! and JSF is DEAD ! ! ! Spending a 10+Trillion over the life cycle of the system is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Admiral Mullins ( Stealth Ships + a 1000 after burning Ships/Targets and hired the President of Northrop Grumman Ship Building ) Navy is outrageous . Gates needs to fire these two idiots immediately . <p> Well I agree with what you say but I do n't see the need to develop a EW bird for the USAF The cost is out of site , heaven and earth and when you start to radiate stealth is kind of out the window anyway , ( Remember initial pilot training is a joint venture these days as well ) . The EA6B with USAF pilot and ECMOs works and when you think of making the F35 an Electronic bird you could have more than enough Growlers for everyone to go around . And tactics and comms etc would all mesh . I would guess the EF18 G has yet to prove itself although they did take the 3 they had deployed them to the Med area with other assets . The rest I am sure is classified . <p> I remember very vividly in 1972 when the EA6B first came out the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ support the B52 strikes in LB2 . Why -- it was new and sure as heck did n't want to lose one . Did n't even do it for ourselves . Kind of the F22 story all over again . Frankly we did n't need them in Libya . If we can not dance with F15 and F18s with a third rate country we better come come home anyway cause no F22 is going to make a difference . As per the electronic environment you never know who the operators are on the ground and do you want to use your front line machines when you do n't have to . BIG cat and mouse game with that stuff . In this case I do n't think we needed the F22 . Between the F18 and F15 there weere plenty o assets on the ground to get any job done . Regards . <p> Yet these same incorrigible invaders and oil-thieves hypocritically complain that Kaddhaffi commits war crimes ... <p> Each day I feel more DISGUSTED of N.A.T.O . and of U.N.O . and more inclined towards Russia and China @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and the will to confront the Fascist , Neo-Colonialistic West ( whatever their internal affairs . That 's not my business ) . <p> No matter which of our very potent and expensive " war toys " we use it does not matter when we are in a fight we have little to no business being in , especially carrying a multi-Trillion Dollar Deficit ! Charity begins at home . Keep the toys home and mind our own damned business . First order of business ? Paydown or payoff the national debt and get it off of my childrens ' backs , and their children 's backs as well . Darn fools in Washington D.C.need to wake up ! <p> The air war campaign in Libya is not a serious test of the capabilities of any of the aircraft you mention . Of course the Rafale and the F-15 would be useful in that situation . A P-47 Thunderbolt may also be useful . Advanced " stealth " ( furtive ) capability and supersonic cruise was not essential for success . Here is another interpretation of the latest excuse : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be wasting them on third world cesspool police actions . This would not even rank as a difficult combat training deployment . Since we did n't buy enough F-22s , we need to conserve flying hours and spares for when they can serve a useful purpose , like intimidating clear and present dangers to the United States of America . I assure everyone that those dangerous potential adversaries do not regard the F-22 as a joke . <p> Hi ffb . I ca n't find much fault with what you say , I sometimes tire of your WW II Nazi analogies , I never the less see a different insight then what we been from the American right wing . You antiquated opinions are shared by many relocated europeans this side of the pond to be sure ffb , so I 'm not unfamiliar with them . <p> Here is a question ffb that may but up you alley , why are the Germans acting the way they currently are ? <p> I can think of a couple of reason . The Germans moved a lot of " gold @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they were real quick to get Deutsche Bank assets flown out of Egypt early . Also it is widely assumed in the US that Germany for decades have ignored all of the embargoes placed by the UN in this are looking out for Krout #1 . <p> Another opinion on this is from an art dealer who is involve in recovering stole art I know who says Mubarak never took Germany to the Hague and pursued reclaiming the looted antiquities that Germany looted from Egypt in the 19th and first half of the 20th . Century . She was tell me that ALL of the stolen art and antiquities taken from Iraq during the 2003 US invasion that have bee found/recovered have had German finger prints all over them . <p> Any thoughts on this ffb . <p> To Boomer . I have heard the same things regarding the A-10 and AC-130J 's . It would appear that the productivity of mother Air Force and Naval aviation has been far less then expected . <p> You buddies on the USS Florida though sounds like they did a great job . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the first hour , and has fired almost all of there 154 TLAM magazine before retiring to CONUS for a reload . <p> Finally what will be next weeks excuse of why the F-22 did n't make it to Libya ? <p> One source that I have maintains the a squadron of F-22 's ( 6 F-22 's ? ) home based in Virginia as well as the two E/F-18G 's that re deployed to Italy by the Navy so they could be used against Libyan air defenses. were in Iraq just before the Libyan air campaign , but the F-22 's quickly went back home . <p> Some Europeans are not so trustworthy and have demonstrated a tendancy towards espionage on the F-22 for business reasons , not self defence . The US taxpayers spent a lot getting the F-22 to be effective and we are just trying to stretch the time it takes to be obsolete . No , I do n't think there are enemies of the US in the list you mention If you mean does not fly in joint exercises with foreign aircraft , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mean they do n't fly against foreign aircraft in actual or mock combat , that is partially true , but again , why should we give away all our capability ? I <p> I am not sure what you mean by cutting foreign radar technology , but if you are saying there have been restrictions imposed on foreign radars during joint exercises , I am not aware of that . He may have been furtive , yes , but sometimes F-22s are " wearing " a special radar target to radiate like a less furtive jet . It 's a game . When a lot of money is involved in purchasing a product and others want the money for their product , there can be personal issues , regional issues , even cheating lies and corruption involved to explain irrational behavior . As a result , good products are stopped . If it comes to defending ourselves from N. Korea or Iran , or intimidating them from aggression , we will use them to good advantage . The age of their aircraft is not so important . They either have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . They either have suitable delivery systems or they are acquiring them . <p> You are wrong . Both Rusia and China are working on 5th generation fighters , and both have prototypes fliying. http : **30;3229;TOOLONG -- 01. html " Fights between the F-22A and the PAK-FA will be close , high , fast and lethal . The F-22A may get ' first look ' with the APG-77 , the Advanced Infra Red Search and Track ( AIRST ) sensor having been deleted to save money , but the PAK-FA may get ' first look ' using its advanced infrared sensor . ... The outcome will be difficult to predict as it will depend a lot on the combat skills of the pilots and the capabilities of the missiles for end-game kills . There is no guarantee that the F-22 will prevail every time . " <p> God , Byron has totally gone off the deep end . In the last couple of blog posts , he insulted our Air Force pilots and lied about B-2 bombers dropping dozens of JDAMs into empty desert . I see that he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ everyone is coming out and calling him on it . This guy is a nutcase who does nothing but bash air power with criticisms pulled from his rear . <p> Lets see on the evening of March 24th-25th. 2011 , three B-2 's carrying 15 2000 lb weapons each released their bombs in air space outside of Libya at Libyan target . That sure looks like three dozen plus weapons to me . As far as AF BDA , it claimed no target hit , nor did the Gadhafi forces who would have benefitted from such . <p> Granted it was a needless and stupid jesters on the part of the USAF , but these acts of showmanship are rather common to them . Then their was the Bone raid that dropped 115 SDB 's and hit 100 targets , the targets have never been identified . <p> freefallingbomb , for being a self-proclaimed expert on INS and validating Byron 's assertions regarding INSs above you are rather ignorant . Not stupid , just ignorant . Since you are a private pilot , I would presume you can be taught @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ time ... the time directly related to the vehicle 's speed is where they deviate from their intended destination . Also , INS 's have different drift rates based on the manufacturing technology . <p> You say that a vehicle ( submarine , aircraft ... whatever ) must be calibrated . That is true , but if the INS drifts how do they calibrate it in flight or in the ocean ? Since you are a pilot , I would presume you know a little about your aircraft systems ( or you should ) . How do you " calibrate " your INS in flight ? You do n't ! At least not without another system ( such as a GPS ) providing a feed into it . <p> Your use of terminology is inaccurate since once the INS is calibrated , it only needs updating because the calibration occurs with respect to the INS sensing true north on the ground before you take-off . The INS is only updated after you are in flight , no INS likes straight and level flight for an extended period of time so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " tight " ... so does a GPS . So , how does this relate to a JDAM ? <p> A JDAM is an INS which travels along a relative position -- relative to the aircraft . Based on the coordinates of the aircraft , it knows the coordinates of the target . At 15,000 ft the time of flight of a JDAM is so low that it is insignificant . However , the GPS aids in this ... it provides a constant input to the INS to ensure it is on the right path . So , higher altitudes are negated by GPS aiding . Additionally , the more altitude the more energy the JDAM has . ( you ought to appreciate this being a pilot and having to look for diverts in an engine out condition ) The JDAM glides to its target and the lower altitudes may not allow for the weapon to achieve the optimum target parameters . That said , a higher altitude JDAM profile actually negates any concerns for accuracy by 1 ) providing the energy and 2 ) providing GPS acquisition time . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your INS for your piloting and also consider exploring the impact the Schuler cycle has on INSs as well . <p> Lastly , aircraft do not need men on the ground to designate targets ... look into the military 's use of the term " interdiction " ? That is why the coordination with the ground elements is so critical . <p> Can you imagine this ? The USAF has nothing better to do than to fly three B-2 bombers ( of which it only has 20 , each worth over a billion dollars ) on across the world from CONUS to Libya , just to waste dozens of munitions on empty desert . I too would like to see his " sources . " <p> I strongly disagreed with Byron before , but at least he was posting genuine opinions that were sane , despite being biased and occasionally inaccurate . But Byron has now lost his mind , and is repeating the same blatant lies and outrageous accusations . All backed up by alleged " sources " that he ca n't name or show anyone . <p> His @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be a serious military blog and news source . They amount to slander against the American military and its servicemen . How 's about we just click " Report " from now on , and notify the blog editors whenever Byron comes out to troll like this ? <p> According to this table , if gyro-compasses ( " I.N.S. " = plain old gyro-compasses ) deviate 650 meters after only one hour ( and I know for a fact that they deviate MUCH MORE that that ! The earliest trans-atlantic airliners after World War Two , the " Super-Constellations " , were always 30 km off course after a 6 hours long flight . Of course , once they arrived to the other side they had radio beacons again to find their way around ) , then they also drift 10,8 meters off course PER MINUTE . Simple mathematics . Now multiply this inevitable , permanent deviation with a J.D.A.M. 's ( minutes of ) flight time , after it 's released from a safe distance and from an effective altitude ( = potential energy turned into kinetic energy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ absolutely correct , when he said that I.N.S.-guided J.D.A.M.s are far too imprecise to hit any ( standing , let alone moving ... ) vehices , or other small targets . <p> You 're just dropping half a billion $ worth of expensive , " sophisticated " ( expensive does n't necessarily mean sophisticated , let alone effective ) ammunitions in the SAND , like stupid ! Add to that the fact that N.A.T.O.s " wise " war planners apparently ONLY work with old ( = obsolete ) maps , because apparently they have no communication equipment to spare for the rebels , and N.A.T.O . / Operation " Odyssey Clown " has no reconnaissance planes either ( quite apparently ... ) , then calculate your J.D.A.M.s ' resulting C.E.P. ! That should also explain the incredibly suspicious lack of close-ups of destroyed targets , exactly like over Serbia 1999 , too . <p> As you know , I do n't usually quip stuff like " Byron = BS " , etc. ( even trolls have minimal cultural pretentions ) , but sincerely : What should I , as an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this particular commentary of yours ? <p> According to you , if the " solo-dancing , unconscionable Germans " did n't join just another of your Anglo Blitzkriegs , then it must be because they 're ( quote ) " too busy stealing gold and artworks from poor Third World peoples " . <p> Here 's MY quip : Compared to hollering U.S. American football patriots like you , even U.S. movie directors like D. W. Griffith and Samuel Fuller were vanguardistic social critics ! <p> " In its most accurate mode , the JDAM system will provide a weapon circular error probable of 5 meters or less during free flight when GPS data is available . If GPS data is denied , the JDAM will achieve a 30-meter CEP or less for free flight times up to 100 seconds with a GPS quality handoff from the aircraft . " <p> Calculating free-fall speed at 15,000 feet with an initial velocity of 250 MPH , the free-fall time of a JDAM would be approximately 30 seconds . At 45,000 feet , the free-fall time would be approximately 52 seconds . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's flight time from ever being measured in minutes . <p> Disregard the calculations , I forgot that the JDAM does n't truly free-falls : it glides with it 's strakes . But still , most real-world weapons-release altitudes are n't near the maximum release altitude for the JDAM . Also , because we 're dealing with opponents that do n't use highly sophisticated technologies , GPS-jamming is a non-issue . <p> Just to humor all you butternuts . It is quite obvious that none of you read any newspapers or the information you are curious about you would already have known to you . <p> All of the information on the B-2 and Bone raids was published in the LA Times , WSJ , WP , and NYT 's as well as The Air Force Times . <p> In fact most of numerical information I use for arguments comes from the above sources . If you butternuts are to lazy , to cheap to subscribe to , or dumb to read the daily news their is absolutely nothing I can do , you are operating purely on own ignorance @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the issue off ffb and technical information , all you are trying to do is mask the fact that you have absolutely no factual based arguments to present and have to change the subject . <p> How a JADAM II is guided to target means noting . What is important is if a weapons hits an intended target or not . The performance of US aircraft from 15,000 ft. was dismal . <p> As the military and their supporters have always done is make excuses for failures instead of owning up to them and correcting the problems which is this case appears to be a case of oversold weapon capabilities , lack of any war planning and air tasking , and under trained air crews . <p> A search on the Air Force Times and the New York Times websites brought up nothing about negative JDAM performance , but just the opposite .... articles celebrating the effectiveness of the JDAM system . The LA Times has only article regarding the JDAM , which covers the various mechanical and human errors that can interfere with JDAM performance : nothing that backs @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Journal yielded only one result that only mentioned the cost of a JDAM kit . A search on the Washington Post yielded NO results , searching for both " JDAM " and " Joint Direct Attack Munition " . <p> I 've used the following search phrase on those sites : " JDAM performance " , " JDAM error " , " JDAM miss " <p> Once again , you failed to prove anything other than your lack of ability to back up your dubious claims . <p> Have n't you heard of the " **39;3261;TOOLONG ... Ergo , " excuses for failures instead of owning up to them and correcting the problems which is this case appears to be a case of oversold weapon capabilities ( ? ) " <p> And , when you talk of " military and their supporters , " do nt you mean the " **39;3302;TOOLONG ... You , know , the New-World-Order -- UN/NATO ? <p> Beware the " butter-knife " brigades . are you following the rabbit trail now ALLICE ? <p> There is nothing to respond to . All I see is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on any Middle School playground . <p> Nobody is making an argument to support any idea and you are doing is bullying and since I 've already kicked you collective sixes , I have nothing more to say . Right now I have to get ready a Daily Teaspoon column . <p> It is the nonsense that is above , is why dod buzz is no longer read by the people that are making decisions , you guys with your silly right wing postings killed the site . <p> You make a dubious statement about the ineffectiveness of JDAM thus the ineffectiveness of the F-22 . We challenged your statement and called for you to prove your claims . You state that your claims are based off of articles that are readily available online , yet still did not cite any publications . When pressed further you spout off random publications without directly citing any specific articles . I then took the time to search those publications you cited and found nothing to back up your original statement . <p> Now you come back and pout that we 're just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ counter-arguments to your original statement . But the discussion got stalled when you failed to properly address our counter-arguments and requests for citations , instead attempting to divert the discussion away from your original points . Now you 're including baseless right-wing bashing comments ( which by the way I 'm an independent ) , which is yet another failure on your part for this discussion ... as comments of that nature easily devolves discussions into back-and-forth name-calling . <p> If you honestly wanted a real discussion , you 'd have better served yourself with preparing some readily available citations to go directly with your posting and leave out the left-wing/right-wing sentiments . Otherwise , I 'd venture to guess that you 're really just using lengthy fluff-filled posts to give the appearance that you actually have some sort of technical expertise , in an attempt to persuade the ignorant masses into following your own personal agendas . Your posting behavior on this site is indicative of this . <p> MOVE some **25;3343;TOOLONG from BAGDAD to ABADAN and AHWAZ again SSSSSSSecretly then you can back up SHIRAZ FORRRRR better control @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ uppppppppp <p> THE next back up can be moved through BAKKU but is not easy to be tusted are lots of eyesssss WAtching if you get a chance entere to makkoo the old border in between remmmmmemmmber the old EYESSSSSSS are stillll there the local can lead you to TABRIZ but you have to be carefullllll tabriz is half and half you got to be with ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! <p> 2 ) " ... the JDAM will achieve a 30-meter CEP or less for free flight times up to 100 seconds with a GPS quality handoff from the aircraft . " = 30 meters deviation after barely 2 minutes of flight ? Are you trying to prove my point or what ? What tank or bunker wall on Earth wo n't resist a 2.000 pounds ( 910 kg ) heavy J.D.A.M. from that far way ? Will you even be able to hit a runway with only one single G.P.S.-less ( or jammed ) J.D.A.M. ? If not : Why not resort to good , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) <p> The rest of your post , whether a smart bomb falls free ( vertically ) or whether it has a gliding angle ( thanks to airplane speed and / or to its own wings and / or to its own propulsion ) is irrelevant to the precisions of various guidance systems . <p> The current accumulated costs of the Libyan air war for the US is $608 million dollar and the DoD estimated cost per month of standing by is $40 million a month . <p> I got an OK to say that the B-2 and Bone raids carried out on Libya were done from 40,000 ft . I was offered no corrections on my statements on BDA . <p> To ffb . Regardless of your political feelings on the current French Government , they are doing a great job and have moved operations into West Africa where the US is afraid to thread . From the reluctance I 'm hearing from sources , I would n't be surprise that Syria will become a French show . <p> The concern with in the US military about the performance @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I had previously been told . The accuracy issue and the general inability of our so-called very expensive ( JADAM II kit for a 500 lb. bomb is said to cost $50,000.00 for the kit alone , or as my source said thats more then the average wages of three Wal-Mart employees ) ) smart weapons to find/hit and destroy is bothering a lot of members of congress . <p> From Wikipedia , the free encyclopedia In the military science of ballistics , circular error probable ( CEP ) ( also circular error probability or circle of equal probability1 ) is an intuitive measure of a weapon system 's accuracy . It is defined as the radius of a circle , centered about the mean , whose boundary is expected to include 50% of the population within it. 2 The original concept of CEP was based on a circular bivariate normal distribution ( CBN ) with CEP as a parameter of the CBN just as ? and ? are parameters of the normal distribution . Munitions with this distribution behavior tend to cluster around the aim point , with most @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and very few at long distance . That is , if CEP is n meters , 50% of rounds land within n meters of the target , 43% between n and 2n , and 7 % between 2n and 3n meters , and the proportion of rounds that land farther than three times the CEP from the target is less than 0.2% . This distribution behavior is often not met . Precision-guided munitions generally have more " close misses " and so are not normally distributed . Munitions may also have larger standard deviation of range errors than the standard deviation of azimuth ( deflection ) errors , resulting in an elliptical confidence region . Munition samples may not be exactly on target , that is , the mean vector will not be ( 0,0 ) . This is referred to as bias . To apply the CEP concept in these conditions , we can define CEP as the square root of the mean square error ( MSE ) . The MSE will be the sum of the variance of the range error plus the variance of the azimuth error @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ error plus the square of the bias . Thus the MSE results from pooling all these sources of error , geometrically corresponding to radius of a circle within which 50% of rounds will land . editConversion between CEP , RMS , 2DRMS , and R95 <p> While 50% is a very common definition for CEP , the circle dimension can be defined for percentages . Approximate formulas are available to convert the distributions along the two axes into the equivalent circle radius for the specified percentage. 34 Accuracy MeasureProbability ( % ) Root mean square ( RMS ) 63 to 68 Circular error probability ( CEP ) 50 Twice the distance root mean square ( 2DRMS ) 95 to 98 95% radius ( R95 ) 95

@@5136741 <h> Ezra Klein and " Substance " <p> Klein is the archetype for modern American liberalism , so much so that he disavows being a liberal at all . He 's a centrist technocrat , obsessed over policy , ignoring politics , honestly searching for solutions to the world 's problems through the dialectic of an Excel sheet . When he told Alec MacGillis that " At this point in my life , I do n't really think of myself as a liberal . That 's not the project I 'm part of , which is to let the facts take me where they do , " he was just embodying a new center-left commonsense : liberals are anti- political . <p> Unfortunately , anti-political proclivities are present across the political spectrum ( even on the radical left , as I argue in a forthcoming Jacobin essay ) . Sunkara is right , though , to pay special attention to the " solution-oriented " strand of American liberalism , of which Klein and company are avatars . Because of their prominence , they 've had an appreciable impact on American political discourse , and perceptions of the left . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " At this point in my life , I do n't really think of myself as a liberal . That 's not the project I 'm part of , which is to let the facts take me where they do . " <p> Even in his days as a liberal , he adopted a similar attitude , derisively dismissing principle-based debates . Here 's Klein talking with an exasperated Will Wilkinson nearly six years ago . ( Bonus : watch the rest of that conversation , and you 'll get to see Klein associate himself with the proletariat and describe himself as " about as close to a democratic socialist as you come in America " ! ) <p> Klein casts himself as the pragmatist , running the numbers while Wilkinson 's head is in the sky , focused on immaterial things like Rawls 's theory of justice . Wilkinson is no man of the left , but he 's correct in this case : you have to establish the ends before you can determine the efficacy of the means . Values and principles are n't self-evident . <p> Often @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lucidly articulate a compelling set of moral principles if it 's to advance a viable political project . Discussions of principles can quickly become abstruse , but there has to be a happy medium between Klein-style policy pragmatism and esoteric theorizing . Theory can be divorced from practice , but the reverse is a danger as well . <p> To me , the most insidious effect Klein et al . have had is this : Those who want to be considered relevant and substantive basically have to comport themselves in the same way . <p> If you are n't citing a graph , you 're either a partisan hack or an irrelevant academic . <p> Shawn Gude is a writer , graduate student , and activist . His intellectual influences include Chantal Mouffe , Michael Harrington , and Ella Baker . He buys too many books and drinks too much craft beer . Contact him at shawn.gude@gmail.com or on Twitter @shawngude . <p> I do n't know about this . Its true Klein is focused on finding solutions . Good for him . Its also true we need both theory @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ arguments ignore if something is possible or if theory , you know , actually works . We have lots of debates around here where earnest conservative and libertarians proclaim about freedom as a first principle from which all solutions must follow . However they are disinclined , to say the least , to hear or answer the question about whether Freedom or Free Markets will reach the ends they want . Or if they do acknowledge the question the answer is supposed to be a self-evident " of course it does . " <p> For Klein , and someone like myself , something like Uni HC is a a good and noble end . There you go , thats an end , now lets talk about how to get there . Libs have plenty of ends in mind , we just do n't talk about in the same abstruse philosophical manner that makes some others all warm and fuzzy . <p> ( rolls eyes to heaven ) Lenin once said To accept anything on trust , to preclude critical application and development , is a grievous sin ; and in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is obviously not enough . <p> Trouble was , Lenin was a man of ideas and his applications and developments came later . That 's the sovereign failure of Communism in a nutshell . But here Lenin said something important . The Left has always enjoyed the advantage of the facts . Though we 're always being accused of being pie-eyed idealists , the suffering of the world is beyond denial . <p> Oh , and -- they often just ignore the graphs , too , when they do n't favor their preconceptions . Absolutely perfect example : school reform . As a matter of pure empiricism , the school reform movement has been an outrageous failure . In fact it 's been one of the most outrageous failures in the history of American public policy . Yet Klein et al . show no interest at all in moving away from school reform . So I guess they are n't just brains in a jar , after all . <p> the left has to lucidly articulate a compelling set of moral principles if it 's to advance a viable political @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> I realize I 'm taking that quote out of context , but it 's just such a loaded bunch of hogwash ; and the same descriptions could easily apply to Republicans or libertarians . Examples might include abstracts like ' cutting taxes promotes growth ' ( shown to be untrue by historical data ) or the whole libertarian argument of getting rid of much of government without laying out paths of how one gets from here to there . <p> " Cutting taxes promotes growth " is an empirical claim that has to be assessed empirically . " We should pursue policies that promote growth " is a normative claim that has to be assessed theoretically . That 's entirely Shawn 's point . <p> Freddie 's reply to zic , above , cuts to the heart of it . For liberals of a technocratic persuasion , there are only empirical questions . Normative questions are best avoided , or their existence denied , and those who engage them earnestly must perforce be irrelevant or on the fringes . The technocratic vision of a wholly empirical approach to policymaking @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the need to contest , persuade , and engage in ( self- ) criticsm , of the strong and slow boring of hard boards . <p> I wo n't dispute that , but to add to it : The weighting of normative propositions is absent ; ie , balancing competing interests ; eg , " We should institute policies which foster growth , up to Point X , " and " We should institute policies which foster economic stability up to Point Y , " where X and Y are at odds ( or unclear ) . <h> Recent Comments <p> Loading ... <p> Shawn Gude is a writer and recent college graduate . His chief interests are democratic theory , civic education , and ideological history ; his intellectual influences include Chantal Mouffe , Michael Harrington , and Ella Baker . He buys too many books and drinks too much craft beer

@@5136841 <p> Leather jackets are such clothes that can assure you of providing good warmth in the cold days . Therefore , these are one of the essential items for the winter season . But handling a leather jacket is not that easy as it looks . It may get damaged if you show your irresponsibility in caring for it . The climate of a particular place also puts effects on these . There are chances of the leather being infected by germs . So , you should know various methods of cleaning and caring for the leather jackets . You can clean it yourself if you know the methods properly or can hand it over to the professional cleaners . <p> Generally , professional cleaning of leather is an unnecessary thing . This is because leathers do not catch so much of dirt that it will have to be cleaned professionally . However , there are chances that jacket color might fade . So , it is better you try cleaning it yourself . For cleaning it by yourself you will first have to test whether the leather has a finish or not . If you use water for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So , for cleaning it you can use a brush or fine and smooth sandpapers . For a finished jacket you can use sponge or damp clothes when the dirt is light . <p> For heavy stains you can use any light detergent or soap . After applying water or any detergent through cloth or sponge rub the leather surface with some soft cloth . For removing wrinkles from the jacket you can keep it hanging in your bathroom . This will help in removing the wrinkle through water vapors while you take your shower . If that too does not work , then you can iron it by placing a brown paper between the iron and it . <p> Always remember to place your leather jacket wrapped by a cloth . Do not keep it in plastic bags as that will destroy it . Leather needs to take breath and therefore , you have to provide the required space . <p> Certain things that you always should remember while wearing leather jackets are that these should not be worn in rain . Keep it away from rain and shower @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your room only , not under the sun . Drying it at room temperature for the whole night will be ideal . You should not stick anything with pins in your leather jackets . Even a small hole can create a problem later on and you may end up losing your jacket . Also , you should keep hair spray or perfume away from your leather jackets if you love them . The chemicals in the sprays damage the leather . <p> It is necessary to keep conditioning the jacket through leather conditioner if the place you live is dry . However , those who stay in the wet areas should keep waterproofing and conditioning the jacket . For people living in the snowy areas the best way to take care of their leather jackets is to sponge salt gently over the leather . So , after all such required and proper care you will definitely find your leather jacket in its original glamor even after many years . <h> Related Posts by Categories <h> 0 comments : Responses to " How to Take Care of Leather Jackets " <h> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ contents , featuring tips , guides and commentary on a variety of interesting topics . I hope that you will enjoy your visit

@@5136941 <h> The cost of an education <p> With students streaming back to college campuses , flooding their favorite bars and restaurants , and shelling out for books , there have been several timely pieces on the cost of college . Several have even questioned whether the returns are worth the investment . <p> The cost of a college education is rising 3 percent to 4 percent that of inflation since the 1980s , according to a Newsweek article by Megan McArdle . She goes on to examine if the economics of a college degree are actually worth the cost and the verdict is mixed . She writes : <p> Promotional literature for colleges and student loans often speaks of debt as an " investment in yourself . " But an investment is supposed to generate income to pay off the loans . More than half of all recent graduates are unemployed or in jobs that do not require a degree , and the amount of student-loan debt carried by households has more than quintupled since 1999 . These graduates were told that a diploma was all they needed to succeed , but it wo n't even get them out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ For many , the most tangible result of their four years is the loan payments , which now average hundreds of dollars a month on loan balances in the tens of thousands . <p> Much has been written about the trillions of dollars in education dollars owed to the government and private lenders . Notably , the New York Times has done an outstanding series called " Degrees of Debt " analyzing the cost of college and the effect that debt loads are having on Americans . The most recent piece reviewed the booming debt collection industry and how these firms are getting rich from defaulting borrowers . <p> In his recent installment , Andrew Martin writes : <p> As the number of people taking out government-backed student loans has exploded , so has the number who have fallen at least 12 months behind in making payments -- about 5.9 million people nationwide , up about a third in the last five years . <p> In all , nearly one in every six borrowers with a loan balance is in default . The amount of defaulted loans -- $76 billion @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ students at public two- and four-year colleges and universities , according to a survey of state education officials . <p> In an attempt to recover money on the defaulted loans , the Education Department paid more than $1.4 billion last fiscal year to collection agencies and other groups to hunt down defaulters . <p> So not only are we now creating a class of indebted people , we 're also creating a boom industry to hunt them down to make sure they pay . Since changes to the structure in 2010 , most loans are actually issued by the federal government , giving them more power to garnish wages and take tax refunds . <p> So , what can be done ? A college degree does ensure better job prospects , higher pay and more opportunity . With the number of people attending college rising , it 's nearly impossible to get ahead without that important piece of paper . <p> " The question is n't the debt per se . It 's what the students are getting in return , " says Richard Arum , a New York University @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ heavy debts for an education ( ethnomusicology , theater arts ) that just is n't worth it from a strictly financial viewpoint . ( Money is n't everything , but try telling that to the collection agency . ) Education benefits society by creating a workforce that creates wealth , pays taxes , and stays off welfare . But state governments -- whose schools educate 7 in 10 students -- have raised tuition abruptly because of their own financial problems . <p> He also points out that the heavy debt load hurts all aspects of the economy with 40 percent of young borrowers saying they 've delayed major purchases , 27 percent moving in with their parents , and 24 percent saying their loans have affected their career choices . <p> That 's a heavy load for taking on debt that has long been called " good " and beneficial . It 's true that an education ca n't be taken away , but the debt ca n't either -- even in bankruptcy . Coy 's article is full of

@@5137041 <h> 26 March 2007 <h> More And More <p> Witnesses have told congressional investigators that the chief of the General Services Administration and a deputy in Karl Rove 's political affairs office at the White House joined in a videoconference earlier this year with top GSA political appointees , who discussed ways to help Republican candidates . <p> ... <p> When Jennings concluded his presentation to the GSA political appointees , Doan allegedly asked them how they could " help ' our candidates ' in the next elections , " according to a March 6 letter to Doan from Rep. Henry A. Waxman ( D-Calif. ) , chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee . Waxman said in the letter that one method suggested was using " targeted public events , such as the opening of federal facilities around the country . " <p> ... <p> The committee is also expected to question Doan about her attempt to give a no-bid job to a friend and professional associate last summer . In addition , the committee plans to look at Waxman 's charge that Doan " intervened " in a troubled technology contract with Sun Microsystems that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Senate , Doan is facing a similar line of questioning in letters from Sen. Charles E. Grassley ( R-Iowa ) . Also examining Doan are the GSA 's Office of Inspector General and the independent federal Office of Special Counsel , which investigates allegations of Hatch Act violations . <p> ... <p> " Ever since I made the decision to restore fiscal discipline to all divisions within GSA , I have had to face a series of personal attacks and charges , " Doan said in a March 7 statement . <p> Save us from another BushCoT " martyr , " hardworking and patriotic . <p> Everything they do - everything -

@@5137141 <p> Oh you made my heart skip a beat ! I adore those shoes . I adore ballet . Thoroughly enjoyed it as a child and dreamt of being in Swan Lake , but alas , when we moved house there were no classes nearby for me to continue , so my dreams were all I had left . *deep sigh* However , your fish make me smile too , and all is right in the world : 0 ) x <p> Hi VonnyK -- I love pastels and ballet so you 've captured my heart . Did you get your message from me , you are one of the winners in the challeges at Morning Dewdrops . Go to http : **35;4700;TOOLONG ... Share if you like so we can spread the word about BCAM -- Also please see private message and needed info from you . Blessings Terri and congrats <p> Oh , I especially love the fish ! I took ballet and thought I wanted to be a prima . My teacher told my mother that i did n't have the figure for it . I am too short and compact , and with a " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sorry I am so late to comment this week . I just posted my entry this morning ! <h> About Me <p> I always loved to draw and paint as a child and took it up again after the birth of my second child . I love doing large undersea paintings , even though you will never get me into the sea . I recently started to play with polymer clay and I am having a great time creating all types of undersea creatures that I turn into brooches and necklaces . I love to lose myself when painting

@@5137241 <h> Company says fracking not a part of search for oil and natural gas in Oakland County <p> Published : Tuesday , August 28 , 2012 <p> By JOSEPH SZCZESNY Of The Oakland Press <p> The northern Michigan company prospecting for oil and gas in the middle of Oakland County does not plan to use the water-intensive practice of " fracking " if the exploratory wells it is drilling are successful . <p> Ben Brower , a representative of Jordan Energy of Traverse City , who represented the Michigan Oil &; Gas Association at a forum on oil and gas drilling in Oakland County , said his company does not expect to use fracking to extract oil and gas from its prospects across the county . <p> Jordan Development of Traverse City , the oil and gas company which operates wells throughout Michigan , paid the state of Michigan $33 per acre during an auction in May for 18,347 acres of state owned mineral rights inside Oakland County . <p> Watch a report on fracking on today 's News at Noon . <p> In addition , the company is also offering to buy the mineral rights from dozens of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 100 county resident who turned out for the forum Monday night , which was sponsored by the Michigan State University Cooperative Extension Service . <p> " We bought all of the ( state ) leases in Oakland County , " Brower said . " It 's not our intent to do any harm . " <p> Brower also said Jordan has sunk one exploratory well in White Lake Township inside the boundaries of the Indian Springs Metro Park . Jordan Development also has acquired leases inside Kensington Metro Park . <p> Not all wells or prospects are successful . However , given the scope and cost of activity , it appears Jordan Development is relatively confident their investment in Oakland County will pay , said Larry Elkus , a Farmington Hills attorney who specializes in oil and gas cases . <p> Several resident attending the forum expressed concern about the threat drilling poses both to lakes and streams as well as underground aquifers that are used for drinking water and in different parts of the county . Continued ... <p> Brower , however , said drilling in Michigan is tightly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Development 's business is located primarily in Michigan it is quite sensitive the requirements on any one exploring or extracting oil and natural gas in the state . <p> Michigan is n't a major exporter of oil and gas but oil companies have operated in the state since 1925 and drilled thousands of wells throughout the Lower Peninsula , Brower said . <p> Brower also stressed Jordan Development would not use fracking to recover oil and gas from underneath Oakland County . Fracking uses large amounts of water mixed with chemicals to split the rock formations in which natural gas is trapped and bring it to the surface . <p> Bill Mitchell , a geologist from the DEQ 's Office of Oil , Gas and Minerals , said before the state approves a drilling permit it requires an extensive review of the potential harm that might be done to aquifers or surface water . <p> Companies drilling for oil and gas in Michigan also have to gain control the mineral rights to plots of between 40 acres and 650 acres before the state Supervisor of Wells will approve a drilling @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by law , owners of private property can be forced in a pool by court order so drilling can proceed . <p> Curtis Talley Jr of the MSU Extension Service said oil and gas companies would rather buy the oil and gas rights from property owners . <p> Jordan is currently paying private land owners roughly $100 per acre for their mineral rights , Brower said . The leases of mineral rights are drafted to favor the oil and gas companies but individual landowners can negotiate for more favorable terms and conditions , Talley said . <p> If the drilling is successful and the exploratory well leads to the production , landowners are entitled to a royalty , which represents as much as 12 percent of the market value of the oil and gas as its sold on the open market . <p> Roger Beukema shares news from Lansing that impacts sportsmen ( this means ladies as well ) and talks about things he finds when he goes overseas

@@5137341 <h> Italy quake verdict puts all science on trial : seismologists <p> People stand as the court in charge of the trial of six Italian scientists and a government official charged with manslaughter proceeds in L'Aquila , Italy . Seismologists said they were horrified after six of their colleagues were sentenced to six years in jail for manslaughter Monday on charges of underestimating the risk of an earthquake that struck Italy in 2009 . <p> " We are deeply concerned . It 's not just seismology which has been put on trial but all science , " Charlotte Krawczyk , president of the seismology division at the European Geosciences Union ( EGU ) , told AFP . <p> The verdict struck at scientists ' right to speak honestly and independently , she said in a phone interview from Germany . <p> " All scientists are really shocked by this , " said Krawczyk . " We are trying to organise ourselves and come up with a strong statement that could help so that the scientists do not have to go to jail . <p> " People are asking , ' Is this really true ? ' ' What does @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ does it mean for talking in public about risks ? ' " <p> " People are stunned , " said Mike Bickle , a professor of earth sciences at the University of Cambridge . <p> Roger Musson at the British Geological Survey ( BGS ) said the verdict was " unbelievable " . <p> He and other seismologists said it was impossible to forecast an earthquake , and scientists pressed to give a black-or-white answer could unleash panic or lose all credibility if nothing happened . <p> " Seismologists are more or less reconciled to the fact that the chances of predicting when a large earthquake is going to strike are somewhat more remote than finding the Holy Grail , " said Musson . <p> " It will have a chilling effect not just for seismologists but for science . People will be very cautious about giving an opinion , " he warned . <p> They were also ordered to pay morethan nine million euros ( $11.7 million ) in damages to survivors and inhabitants . <p> They were members of the Major Risks Committee which met in the central @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ convened six days before a 6.3-magnitude quake devastated the region , killing 309 people , destroying homes and churches and leaving thousands homeless . <p> Richard Walters of Oxford University said he was " very saddened " by the not be putting responsible scientists who gave measured , scientifically accurate information in prison , " Walters their advice on natural hazards and trying to help society in this way . " <p> David Rothery , a lecturer in earth sciences at Britain 's Open University , said , " The best estimate at the time was that the low level seismicity was not likely to herald a bigger quake , but there are no certainties in this game . <p> " Earthquakes are inherently unpredictable , " he said in remarks reported by the Science Media Centre . " I hope they will appeal . " <h> Filter <p> Scientists in the US do not , for the most part , have to be concerned about landing in jail . They are just used as political footballs and pilloried by the anti-science ideologies that exist here in sizeable minorities as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ blight on Italian society and I suspect that they have now managed to destroy whatever chance they may have had at capturing any prestige in science at all . Why not ? Any scientist who talks about risks or dangers faces jail time . <p> Ironic is many ways . There is a certain inclination amongst some scientists to believe they have replaced religion . There are some that conduct themselves and make pronouncements more appropriate to priests than men of science . So it would seem that , at least in this district in Italy , they have greatly succeed in convincing the public that have replaced GOD as well . So it is perfectly reasonable for the public to hold

@@5137441 <p> False Front presents a new series of video works by Michael Iauch . The artist writes , " Is our romance more like a disease ? Do we like S &M?; I am concerned with an inspired by the tension between my desire for a " pure " experience , to truly transcend the barriers of my mind and body and the decadent utopic visions of American culture that animate this desire ; a mix of rock and roll promises , 60 's back-to-the-land ideology and the moralistic horizons of greening . " <p> With their second web-based release , Appendix presents Rare Earth Sculptures - Cerium by Iain Ball , part of his ongoing project E N E R G Y : P A N G E A. Beginning Tuesday July 17th , this new work will be visible at www.appendixspace.com through the end of July . In Ball 's project , Appendix is transformed into one module of his/the greater systemic machine , alongside the mechanics of hydroshearing seen in a dormant Oregon volcano , alongside your computer , alongside your attentive inquiries . Ball conceives of the show as " mind space which creates metaphysical @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ minerals and weather patterns ... Cerium uses detritus associated with filtration , transformation and a composite formula resulting in carbon dioxide to create a kind of homeopathic remedy , filtering escalating climate-anxiety as a catalyst towards the ecological thought . " Navigate your browser their way on Tuesday

@@5137541 <p> FROM PALM DESERT- The 20th Century 's most compelling decade will come roaring back to life for one exciting performance on Thursday , October 18 , at the McCallum Theatre in Palm Desert . This is the ' 60s is a unique multimedia blend of live music , historical film clips , dance , fashion , and animation . More than a stage show , and much more than a concert , This is the ' 60s takes the audience on a cultural journey celebrating the 50th anniversary of so many milestones in news , pop culture , and music history . From the early days of the space program , through the hysteria of Beatlemania , into the darkness of the Vietnam War , and the shining optimism of the Woodstock era , This is the ' 60s merges that entire turbulent decade into a cohesive and enthralling stage production . <p> Featuring thirty-five songs that united an entire generation , This is the ' 60s features the music of The Rolling Stones , The Beatles , The Monkees , The Mamas &; Papas , The Fifth Dimension , Simon &; Garfunkel , The Beach Boys , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Jefferson Airplane , and many more . Performed live with no pre-recorded samples , the two hour-plus show features the skill and versatility of seven seasoned performers whose note-for-note recreations of classic songs promises to keep audiences captivated . <p> This unique show is the brainchild of producer/director Jim Duffy , a veteran documentary filmmaker , author and musician who has created programming for Discovery Network and other national media outlets . " I combined the two elements I love most : music and storytelling , " explains Duffy . " This is the ' 60s takes the audience on a journey -- one that 's designed to entertain , educate , and stimulate . " <p> Interspersed with the music and dance are vintage film clips featuring major news events , pop culture fads , and period TV commercials that carry the audience back to the ' 60s . While many of the clips bring laughter and reminiscence , others are more poignant , such as the muffled drum cadence of President Kennedy 's funeral procession and the escalating war in Vietnam . The film clips bring new depth @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ What It 's Worth " and Dion 's " Abraham , Martin &; John . " <p> McCallum Theatre presents This is the ' 60s on Thursday , October 18 , at 8 p.m . Tickets are $55 , $45 , $35 and $25 and are available online at www.mccallumtheatre.com or by calling the McCallum Theatre Box Office at ( 760 ) 340-2787 . McCallum Theatre , located at 73000 Fred Waring Drive , Palm Desert CA 92260 , accepts payment by cash , personal check

@@5137641 <h> Angie 's List : Simple bathroom updates <h> Share this story <p> Steer clear of bleach or abrasive cleaners on refinished or re-glazed tubs , tiles and grout . <p> LEWISTON , ID - For more than nine years , Catherine Young devoted countless hours to scrubbing the dingy gray grout between the creamy white tiles in her bathroom . <p> Instead of redoing her floors , she hired a company to replace and seal the grout for about $350 . <p> " Now the grout is probably back to what it was when I moved in but not realizing it had changed over the years , " said homeowner Catherine Young . " Now the grout is back to a lovely shade of gray and it 's sealed so I do n't ' have to worry about it . And it was very inexpensive , very inexpensive choice for something that has a dramatic change in how it looked . " <p> While a full-scale bathroom remodel costs tens of thousands of dollars , there are simple updates you can make without breaking the bank . <p> " Remodeling your bathroom can be overwhelming , but it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , " said Angie 's List owner Angie Hicks . " You can get up to 85 return on the investment , but you do n't have to spend thousands of dollars . You can do some simple upgrades like changing that pink tile or blue tile to a more neutral color or update the handles on your cabinets to make the bathroom more modern . " <p> You do n't have to rip out the bathroom shower tile or tile floors to make them look new again . If your tile is in good shape , consider re-grouting , cleaning , sealing or staining to make tile look like the day it was installed . <p> " When we walk into a bathroom , if the shower is in pretty bad shape with mold and mildew everywhere , they are thinking about tearing it out , " said contractor Chris Uhland . " We can come in , re-grout it , clean everything , and re-caulk it and it makes the bathroom look brand new . " <p> Over time , the bathtub begins to show signs of wear @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ an existing bathtub is another simple project that can make a big impact . <p> " It 's really a nice alternative because bathtubs as well as tile over the years they get scoured , stains , and tile becomes porous , " said contractor Paul Dickerson . " So this creates a barrier so that the water ca n't get behind the tile . It also puts a coating on the tub to make it look pretty much brand new . It 's a very shiny , durable surface . It 's a nice alternative to replacing everything . " <p> Another simple update : your toilet . It may be more cost-effect to replace that toilet than find and repair leaks which not only cause damage , but consume water and increase your utility bill . <p> Steer clear of bleach or abrasive cleaners

@@5137741 <h> It 's in the game <p> Continuing in this weekend 's multimedia trend , here 's a video clip of the Soca Warriors on the pitch against England , including a stunning shot of Latapy rocketing one into the net . Alas , it 's all virtual -- it 's a vignette from the latest EA Sports FIFA World Cup title . <p> I have to admit , watching that clip of the Warriors squaring off against Rooney &; Co. , with Maximus Dan blasting in the background and red , white and black balloons and flags flying high -- I got chills . <p> Trinbagonians everywhere are counting down the days until our Warriors really do walk on to the German pitches . Where ever we may be -- in Germany , in Trinidad , in far flung parts

@@5137841 <h> Growing Up With Two Moms : The Untold Children 's View <p> The children of same-sex couples have a tough road ahead of them -- I know , because I have been there . The last thing we should do is make them feel guilty if the strain gets to them and they feel strange . <p> Between 1973 and 1990 , when my beloved mother passed away , she and her female romantic partner raised me . They had separate houses but spent nearly all their weekends together , with me , in a trailer tucked discreetly in an RV park 50 minutes away from the town where we lived . As the youngest of my mother 's biological children , I was the only child who experienced childhood without my father being around . <p> After my mother 's partner 's children had left for college , she moved into our house in town . I lived with both of them for the brief time before my mother died at the age of 53 . I was 19 . In other words , I was the only child who experienced life under " gay parenting " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , growing up with gay parents was very difficult , and not because of prejudice from neighbors . People in our community did n't really know what was going on in the house . To most outside observers , I was a well-raised , high-achieving child , finishing high school with straight A 's . <p> Inside , however , I was confused . When your home life is so drastically different from everyone around you , in a fundamental way striking at basic physical relations , you grow up weird . I have no mental health disorders or biological conditions . I just grew up in a house so unusual that I was destined to exist as a social outcast . <p> My peers learned all the unwritten rules of decorum and body language in their homes ; they understood what was appropriate to say in certain settings and what was n't ; they learned both traditionally masculine and traditionally feminine social mechanisms . <p> Even if my peers ' parents were divorced , and many of them were , they still grew up seeing male and female social @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bold and unflinching from male figures and how to write thank-you cards and be sensitive from female figures . These are stereotypes , of course , but stereotypes come in handy when you inevitably leave the safety of your lesbian mom 's trailer and have to work and survive in a world where everybody thinks in stereotypical terms , even gays . <p> I had no male figure at all to follow , and my mother and her partner were both unlike traditional fathers or traditional mothers . As a result , I had very few recognizable social cues to offer potential male or female friends , since I was neither confident nor sensitive to others . Thus I befriended people rarely and alienated others easily . Gay people who grew up in straight parents ' households may have struggled with their sexual orientation ; but when it came to the vast social universe of adaptations not dealing with sexuality -- how to act , how to speak , how to behave -- they had the advantage of learning at home . Many gays do n't realize what a blessing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> My home life was not traditional nor conventional . I suffered because of it , in ways that are difficult for sociologists to index . Both nervous and yet blunt , I would later seem strange even in the eyes of gay and bisexual adults who had little patience for someone like me . I was just as odd to them as I was to straight people . <p> Life is hard when you are strange . Even now , I have very few friends and often feel as though I do not understand people because of the unspoken gender cues that everyone around me , even gays raised in traditional homes , takes for granted . Though I am hard-working and a quick learner , I have trouble in professional settings because co-workers find me bizarre . <p> In terms of sexuality , gays who grew up in traditional households benefited from at least seeing some kind of functional courtship rituals around them . I had no clue how to make myself attractive to girls . When I stepped outside of my mothers ' trailer , I was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , funny clothes , lisp , and outlandishness . Not surprisingly , I left high school as a virgin , never having had a girlfriend , instead having gone to four proms as a wisecracking sidekick to girls who just wanted someone to chip in for a limousine . <p> When I got to college , I set off everyone 's " gaydar " and the campus LGBT group quickly descended upon me to tell me it was 100-percent certain I must be a homosexual . When I came out as bisexual , they told everyone I was lying and just was n't ready to come out of the closet as gay yet . Frightened and traumatized by my mother 's death , I dropped out of college in 1990 and fell in with what can only be called the gay underworld . Terrible things happened to me there . <p> It was not until I was twenty-eight that I suddenly found myself in a relationship with a woman , through coincidences that shocked everyone who knew me and surprised even myself . I call myself bisexual because it would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ straight " after almost thirty years as a gay man . I do n't feel like dealing with gay activists skewering me the way they go on search-and-destroy missions against ex-gays , " closet cases , " or " homocons . " <p> Though I have a biography particularly relevant to gay issues , the first person who contacted me to thank me for sharing my perspective on LGBT issues was Mark Regnerus , in an email dated July 17 , 2012 . I was not part of his massive survey , but he noticed a comment I 'd left on a website about it and took the initiative to begin an email correspondence . <p> Forty-one years I 'd lived , and nobody -- least of all gay activists -- had wanted me to speak honestly about the complicated gay threads of my life . If for no other reason than this , Mark Regnerus deserves tremendous credit -- and the gay community ought to be crediting him rather than trying to silence him . <p> Regnerus 's study identified 248 adult children of parents who had same-sex romantic @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the hindsight of adulthood , they gave reports unfavorable to the gay marriage equality agenda . Yet the results are backed up by an important thing in life called common sense : Growing up different from other people is difficult and the difficulties raise the risk that children will develop maladjustments or self-medicate with alcohol and other dangerous behaviors . Each of those 248 is a human story , no doubt with many complexities . <p> Like my story , these 248 people 's stories deserve to be told . The gay movement is doing everything it can to make sure that nobody hears them . But I care more about the stories than the numbers ( especially as an English professor ) , and Regnerus stumbled unwittingly on a narrative treasure chest . <p> So why the code of silence from LGBT leaders ? I can only speculate from where I 'm sitting . I cherish my mother 's memory , but I do n't mince words when talking about how hard it was to grow up in a gay household . Earlier studies examined children still living with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ liberty to speak , governed as all children are by filial piety , guilt , and fear of losing their allowances . For trying to speak honestly , I 've been squelched , literally , for decades . <p> The latest attempt at trying to silence stories ( and data ) such as mine comes from Darren E. Sherkat , a professor of sociology at Southern Illinois University at Carbondale , who gave an interview to Tom Bartlett of the Chronicle of Higher Education , in which he said -- and I quote -- that Mark Regnerus 's study was " bullshit . " Bartlett 's article continues : <p> Among the problems Sherkat identified is the paper 's definition of " lesbian mothers " and " gay fathers " -- an aspect that has been the focus of much of the public criticism . A woman could be identified as a " lesbian mother " in the study if she had had a relationship with another woman at any point after having a child , regardless of the brevity of that relationship and whether or not the two women @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that fact alone in the paper should have " disqualified it immediately " from being considered for publication . <p> The problem with Sherkat 's disqualification of Regnerus 's work is a manifold chicken-and-egg conundrum . Though Sherkat uses the term " LGBT " in the same interview with Bartlett , he privileges that L and G and discriminates severely against the B , bisexuals . <p> Where do children of LGBT parents come from ? If the parents are 100-percent gay or lesbian , then the chances are that the children were conceived through surrogacy or insemination , or else adopted . Those cases are such a tiny percentage of LGBT parents , however , that it would be virtually impossible to find more than a half-dozen in a random sampling of tens of thousands of adults . <p> Most LGBT parents are , like me , and technically like my mother , " bisexual " -- the forgotten B. We conceived our children because we engaged in heterosexual intercourse . Social complications naturally arise if you conceive a child with the opposite sex but still have attractions to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as they are corrupting the purity of a homosexual model of parenting . <p> I would posit that children raised by same-sex couples are naturally going to be more curious about and experimental with homosexuality without necessarily being pure of any attraction to the opposite sex . Hence they will more likely fall into the bisexual category , as did I -- meaning that the children of LGBT parents , once they are young adults , are likely to be the first ones disqualified by the social scientists who now claim to advocate for their parents . <p> Those who are 100-percent gay may view bisexuals with a mix of disgust and envy . Bisexual parents threaten the core of the LGBT parenting narrative -- we do have a choice to live as gay or straight , and we do have to decide the gender configuration of the household in which our children will grow up . While some gays see bisexuality as an easier position , the fact is that bisexual parents bear a more painful weight on their shoulders . Unlike homosexuals , we can not write off @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ We have no choice but to take responsibility for what we do as parents , and live with the guilt , regret , and self-criticism forever . <p> Our children do not arrive with clean legal immunity . As a man , though I am bisexual , I do not get to throw away the mother of my child as if she is a used incubator . I had to help my wife through the difficulties of pregnancy and postpartum depression . When she is struggling with discrimination against mothers or women at a sexist workplace , I have to be patient and listen . I must attend to her sexual needs . Once I was a father , I put aside my own homosexual past and vowed never to divorce my wife or take up with another person , male or female , before I died . I chose that commitment in order to protect my children from dealing with harmful drama , even as they grow up to be adults . When you are a parent , ethical questions revolve around your children and you put away your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of Regnerus 's work shows a total disregard for the emotional and sexual labor that bisexual parents contribute to their children . Bisexual parents must wrestle with their duties as parents while still contending with the temptations to enter into same-sex relationships . The turbulence documented in Mark Regnerus 's study is a testament to how hard that is . Rather than threatening , it is a reminder of the burden I carry and a goad to concern myself first and foremost with my children 's needs , not my sexual desires . <p> The other chicken-and-egg problem of Sherkat 's dismissal deals with conservative ideology . Many have dismissed my story with four simple words : " But you are conservative . " Yes , I am . How did I get that way ? I moved to the right wing because I lived in precisely the kind of anti-normative , marginalized , and oppressed identity environment that the left celebrates : I am a bisexual Latino intellectual , raised by a lesbian , who experienced poverty in the Bronx as a young adult . I 'm perceptive enough @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people in those conditions . Especially damning is the liberal attitude that we should n't be judgmental about sex . In the Bronx gay world , I cleaned out enough apartments of men who 'd died of AIDS to understand that resistance to sexual temptation is central to any kind of humane society . Sex can be hurtful not only because of infectious diseases but also because it leaves us vulnerable and more likely to cling to people who do n't love us , mourn those who leave us , and not know how to escape those who need us but whom we do n't love . The left understands none of that . That 's why I am conservative . <p> So yes , I am conservative and support Regnerus 's findings . Or is it that Regnerus 's findings revisit the things that made me conservative in the first place ? Sherkat must figure that one out . <p> Having lived for forty-one years as a strange man , I see it as tragically fitting that the first instinct of experts and gay activists is to exclude my @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " or as Dr. Sherkat calls it , " bullshit . " So the game has gone for at least twenty-five years . For all the talk about LGBT alliances , bisexuality falls by the wayside , thanks to scholars such as Sherkat . For all the chatter about a " queer " movement , queer activists are just as likely to restrict their social circles to professionalized , normal people who know how to throw charming parties , make small talk , and blend in with the Art Deco furniture . <p> I thank Mark Regnerus . Far from being " bullshit , " his work is affirming to me , because it acknowledges what the gay activist movement has sought laboriously to erase , or at least ignore . Whether homosexuality is chosen or inbred , whether gay marriage gets legalized or not , being strange is hard ; it takes a mental toll , makes it harder to find friends , interferes with professional growth , and sometimes leads one down a sodden path to self-medication in the form of alcoholism , drugs , gambling , antisocial @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ couples have a tough road ahead of them -- I know , because I have been there . The last thing we should do is make them feel guilty if the strain gets to them and they feel strange . We owe them , at the least , a dose of honesty . Thank you , Mark Regnerus , for taking the time to listen . <p> Robert Lopez is assistant professor of English at California State University-Northridge . He is the author of Colorful Conservative : American Conversations with the Ancients from Wheatley to Whitman . This year he will be

@@5137941 <p> SPOKANE , Wash . -- The Lewis-Clark State College men 's basketball team dominated the interior and turned up the heat defensively in the second half en route to a 72-61 victory over Northwest Christian ( Ore. ) on Saturday night in its final contest at the Red Lion Challenge . <p> After withstanding a 3-point barrage in their win on Friday night while tossing in some long-range shots of their own , the Warriors turned to the low block to vanquish the Beacons and increase their best-ever start to 7-0 . <p> Forty-four of the Warriors 72 points in the game were scored in the paint , and LCSC kept possessions alive with a whopping 22 offensive rebounds , topping the number of total boards amassed by Northwest Christian . <p> " The offensive rebounding was the biggest key . You do n't even have to look at the stats to know that was the biggest difference in the game , " Warrior coach Brandon Rinta said . " They were way bigger than us , but our guys did a really good job of crashing the boards . " <p> P.J. Bolte led all scorers with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tacked on five rebounds for the Warriors , similar to several other occasions during the team 's 7-0 start it was an energy play by redshirt freshman Tommy Sperry that was an igniter . <p> The Clarkston native turned his own steal into a layup on the other end that gave the Warriors a six-point lead -- their largest to that point -- at 49-43 with 11 minutes to go . <p> " We hoped to get more of those during the game , but Northwest Christian did a really nice job of getting back in transition , " Rinta said . " For Tommy to get in the lane there and take that thing coast to coast was a big spark for us . " <p> After Sperry 's play , the Warriors ' next seven field goals came on the interior , as LCSC was able to grind down the smaller Beacons . <p> Nick Fromm had 10 of his 16 points in the second half and was the beneficiary of some nifty looks from his teammates . <p> The Beacons got within three points at 62-59 with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ two free throws by Bolte and a putback by Danny Marshall comprised an 8-0 run that effectively sealed the game for Lewis-Clark State . <p> Wyatt Taboh-Graziano had 17 points on 6-for-9 shooting for Northwest Christian , and Jordan Buhler added 15 for the Beacons , who shot 55 percent from the field in the game . <p> The challenges away from home keep on coming for the unbeaten Warriors , who will face Southern Oregon and Oregon Tech , two top Cascade Collegiate Conference squads , in a tournament at SOU next Friday and Saturday . <p> Oregon Tech won the NAIA Division II national championship last season . <p> " It 's going to be fun , " Rinta said . " It 'll be a great challenge playing the defending national

@@5138041 <h> How to Make a Mountain out of a Molehill <h> If you wish to create a Mountain out of a Molehill simply , follow the directions below . With a little bit of ingenuity you will form a great big commotion out of nothing . <h> Take an insignificant occasion from everyday life . <h> Shape it and mold it carefully until it begins to grow . <h> Be sure to add fear , anger , and indignation to the problem . <h> Blow it all out of proportion . <h> Once you have successfully formed a large mountain out of a small molehill , stand back and view your creation . Wah-La ! <h> EXAMPLE : Last night my husband and I stopped at a chain drug store for a few things . At the checkout counter , the clerk informed us that in order to receive the sale price for the buy one get one at 50% off , we would have to use our " rewards card " . We explained that we did not have a " rewards card " . The clerk then told us that without a " rewards card " , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said that if we signed up right then , we could use the card immediately and receive the sale price . <h> My husband and I felt angry that we HAD to sign up for a " rewards card " . We both became indignant with the clerk . My husband told him that if we did not get the sale price without the card , we were going to shop at the drug store 's competitor . This did not faze the clerk . Clearly , he had heard this rant before from previous shoppers . <h> We needed the products , and we did not want to pay full price . Therefore , I signed up for the flipping card . It took ten minutes to sign up due to a computer glitch that could not find my correct birth date . This made my husband even more furious . Consequently , by the time we headed to the car , he had decided that we were NEVER shopping at that drug store again . <h> As you can see , it is incredibly easy to make a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it yourself . I guarantee quick and accurate results on the first try . Carpe Diem ! <h> About bigsmileu1 <p> What good is living life if you do n't share all the experiences , mistakes , and knowledge you have gained ? I am a grandmother , a Jr . High Teacher for 15 years , a wife of 31 years , a mother of two grown children , and I want to share my experiences . <p> Actually I think all these " cards " are turning into a real mountain . Not only are they a pain to carry , but they are sucking away our privacy . ok ok .... I guess it really is " small stuff " ( but it is hard not to get annoyed ! ! ) <p> Totally understand your card frustration . We never bothered until two years ago when we moved two blocks from a drugstore . We were always walking down for something , so finally signed up for the card . We do get benefits since we buy so much over the weeks and months . But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cards . I resent being asked if I want one . I do n't have room in my wallet for all the million cards we 're pressured to sign up for . If having one of those stupid cards allows for a 50% discount then the store can afford to give it to all customers not just the ones patient enough to fill out the application and wait for approval and then be diligent enough to carry the card or ensure they have the card when they go to the specific store that has issued it . Its a plastic society and you 're less than worthless if your wallet is n't stuff with all these stupid plastic " discount " cards . ugh .. <p> You 'd think I was rich or something but when I 'm asked about having cards etc.and did I want to sign up for a card for discounts .... I now just say ' No thank you " .... The clerks kinda look at me funny ... We really do get discounts by scrutinizing all those lovely flyers that come around .... actually my @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the prices are higher ... Diane <p> I do not like that we have to be a member to get a good price on things . It is n't as if the prices are that good , anyway . And , the stores use the infomation to track your purchases . I do n't think the drug store needs to know that I really like chocolate . LOL ! <p> There seems to be a card for every store . It is ridiculous that consumers have to be part of a club in order to receive a good price . Not only that , but my wallet and my key chain can not hold all of those pesky , plastic cards . I am glad you liked the

@@5138141 <h> Sunday , November 18 , 2012 <h> When Holidays Collide <p> I 've been thinking a lot about holidays this last week . Yes , I know I 'd have to get someone to look after the chooks ... Perhaps reminiscing about previous holidays will have to do for now . And this is the one I keep escaping to in my head ... <p> The beach was huge and deserted -- aside from the massive driftwood logs and the colony of seals living at one end -- and all we could hear was the wind whistling between the cliffs and our children 's delight as they explored the wide expanse of sand . It was my fantasy Australian summer holiday ; a beach to ourselves . Only it was autumn and we were in a tiny Californian coastal town . <p> Our wooden cottage stood at the top of the hill , surrounded by tall grasses , looking down over the ocean . The shingled restaurant sitting on the edge of the cliff was empty except for us and the waitress . <p> After dinner , the kids tucked in bed , I went searching for wineglasses @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sat a black , hardcover journal with ' Guest Book ' embossed on the front , one I had n't noticed earlier . Tucking it under my arm , I ventured back to the lounge imagining I would quickly flick through seeing endless entries of names , remarks about the weather and home cities . <p> When I did close the journal , the bottle of wine was finished , the sky pitch black . I lost two hours inside those pages but I had found so much more . <p> Here it was ; the guest book I 'd been waiting for all my life . Entries that went on for 10 pages : the soldier back from fighting in Iraq who could n't get over the quietness here , who could still hear gunfire and bombs in his head but who found the beach and the ocean healing . Every morning he 'd walk along the beach and stare out at the open expanse , marvelling at nature and questioning his involvement in manmade destruction . <p> There was the couple who came here to try and save @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and space in this little cottage to actually see each other properly for the first time in years . After two nights they left feeling stronger in their desire to stay together . Did they ? <p> Soon followed the man who brought his girlfriend here to cook her a romantic dinner of pasta followed by strawberries and chocolate and who joyfully left at the end of the weekend with a fiance . <p> Then there was the family with teenage children and an old Labrador who had been holidaying here for years and had recently discovered their beloved dog was dying of cancer . This weekend was the last holiday for this old dog and the family delighted in watching him run along the beach he had always loved and playing in the long grasses surrounding the cottage . It was bittersweet , the family unsure they would ever be able to return to this little town without their dog . <p> But I think the story that caught me the most , the one I kept returning to , was written by a woman on her honeymoon . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now-husband ' got all dressed-up in new party clothes ' . With their kids they ran down to the San Francisco registry office , had lunch at a very ' swanky ' restaurant with their families and close friends , all stayed the night at ' an even swankier ' hotel before piling the kids and dog into the car and driving to this tiny town to stay in this little cottage . <p> Their days had been spent relaxing , playing on the beach and enjoying becoming a family : ' all of us here together , my wonderful new husband , his two young sons , my little girl , and the new baby we 've just discovered is growing inside me . ' <p> It was the baby , such a symbol of lifelong love and hope that captured my imagination the most and who I kept thinking about long into that night . A baby who would by now be a preschooler , a baby who cemented two families together forever . <p> The beach did n't feel so deserted the next day . The driftwood @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ also see that soldier , sitting on a rock just next to me lost in his own private hell ; there was the old Labrador bounding past , flicking sand up joyfully as he discovered a new lease of life ; the unhappy couple tentatively holding hands at the water 's edge ; the newly engaged couple lying on a rug away from the rest of us . And there were the newlyweds ; watching their children build sandcastles alongside my own ; his hand resting protectively on her stomach . <h> No comments : <h> LinkWithin <h> Subscribe via email <h> About Me <p> As the mother of three young children , I spend a lot of time at home . As a writer , I have begun exploring what the concept of ' home ' really means to us at different times in our lives . I will post regular interviews with a variety of people from all walks of life ( and home ) as well as many stories and book reviews about this place which is so central to our lives . Join me as we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ home . If you have any ideas for furture stories

@@5138241 <h> Calendar <p> A question I received : Why is it written that ascension from one spiritual step onto the next one takes place through the thickening ( Aviut ) of the screen since Aviut is a characteristic of the vessel ( Kli ) and not the screen ? <p> My Answer : The screen is the spiritual vessel . After the First Restriction ( Tzimtzum Aleph ) , the will to receive can not serve as a vessel . The spiritual vessel , the Kli , is that which I can pay with . <p> If I come into a restaurant and say I am hungry , they wo n't look at my desire to eat ; they will be looking at how much money I have , in other words , at my screen . This means I will be measured by what the thickness ( Aviut ) of my screen is , or what my ability to receive in order to bestow is , what my power of intention is , and what amount of my former egoistic desire I am able to attach to my anti-egoistic screen and to the intention to bestow . <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nothing can be received ; it is merely a restriction . A restriction is a screen with a zero thickness which means that I do n't wish to receive anything for myself and I do n't know how to receive in order to bestow . <p> How much can I receive to bestow ? I can receive the amount that equals the thickness of my screen . If the power of my screen is 20 grams , I will be allowed to receive exactly this amount in order to bestow . Both actions must unite in the screen , as the reception and so the bestowal . When they are united

@@5138341 <p> As we all now ' The Hunger Games : Catching Fire ' is starting its production . And much like in the first movie we all know , whether or not we accept it , that things must get cut out for the sake of time . SPOILER ALERT : In case you have n't read ' Catching Fire ' , there will be some mild spoilers below , so beware ! <p> According to a source in touch with The Hob fan site , the rumor is that Bonnie , one of the characters Katniss encounters in the woods outside of District 12 , will be sacrificed from the film . If you do n't remember , Twill and Bonnie are two runaways that tell Katniss more of the uprisings in other districts , and most importantly , about the perseverance of District 13 . There is no word on whether Twill will make an appearance or not . <p> This is of course just a rumor , and I doubt we will hear a definite answer on the issue until at least the end of production , so remember to take this news with a grain @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the absence of both Bonnie and Madge in the movies makes me wonder how the idea of District 13 will be brought into the story . <p> Is there another way you think Katniss will be introduced to District 13 and the Rebellion in the movies ? Tell us in the comments below ! <p> Why have Twill and not Bonnie ? Why ca n't they cast both ? They 're both quite important -- since that 's when Katniss first hears about the possibility of District 13 ? s secret plotting to overthrow the Capitol . <p> Maybe she could hear all the news in the governor 's building , but I do n't know how she 'll get in now that Madge is n't there .. but I 'm thinking it 's possible for that to be the mystery ? But I 'm sure they 'll think of something creative I mean , we all saw THG so we know they have some great creative juices to work with ! <p> They prob want a lead up . She might see the screen of another rebellion plus president @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and her rebellion comment and then her shooting he force field and district 12 demolition could give a hint so that everyone starts thinking but cant be sure till the next movie ? <p> Well , if they took out Bonnie and Twill how would they show Katniss knowing about D13 ? And also , I think there was the importance of the part where Katniss saw the uprising on Madge 's dad 's tv . And she tells Gale and ( I havent read them in a while ) and I believe they want to leave D12 . <p> And if they do nt have Madge then Katniss wont see the tv . <p> If they do nt have Bonnie or Twill , Katniss wont know there might be D13 . <p> But also as " Charisma " says that they could do that and Katniss has no suspicions that there is a D13 and she does nt find out till the end of the 2nd movie . <p> And there are rumors the the " mystery character " which I think is either Madge , Annie , or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Because I think she was really important in the second book because she is the reason Katniss saw the tv AND because she gives Gale the painkillers and practically saves his life . <p> It is stupid how they are taking out Bonnie and Twill as they were the ones that had a hunch District 13 still existed , they are major parts in this story because without them , non of the tributes would have escaped the arena . Another character has to tell Katniss about District 13 and I think it should be Gale , he has always been repulsed by the Capitol and completely hates them so him questioning the existence of District 13 would be perfect . <p> Its a short scene , and you cant just suddenly shove in a whole new concept to the plot line , you need some backstory , somthing at the beggining to start to off ... like pieces of the puzzle for people who are watching , to slowly piece together as the story goes . Its only a little bit more money , and you could reuse the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do nt want too many more changes and I 'm still annoyed that they did n't put madge in ... Soooooo yah ... BRING BOONIE IN THE MOIVIE ! So here is your fan question : What ... <h> Subscribe <h> News <p> Josh Hutcherson will appear on The Late Show with David Letterman on Tuesday Nov 20th . ( Check your TV Guide for your local times . ) Along side Josh will be Amy Poehler , Tegan and Sara , and 2012 NASCAR Champion Top Ten . Maybe he will dish on The Hunger Games : Catching Fire ! We will be watching .. will you ? Source : ... <h> Share this : <p> It 's time to vote for the best barbie ! Pop Style.EW has posted a poll to find out what Barbie you guys like better . Katniss Everdeen from The Hunger Games or Bella Swan from The Twilight Saga : Breaking Dawn . to vote click HERE ! So far Katniss is in the lead 76.15% Bella 's 23.85% .

@@5138441 <p> What a bunch of Negative Nancies we have here . Winter is something we all share and love for the same reasons . This was not some planned marketing stunt or event meant to be a serious shred edit . We were amped to see the first snow and play on it any way possible . One of our locals thought it would be funny to get suited up and grab his snow deck . The rest just came together . He called us while waiting at the tram . The funny looks and

@@5138541 <h> Woman , 29 , was found in the first-floor stairwell of 191 Orchard Street with a wound to her neck <h> Tuesday , Aug 28 , 2012 Updated 4:16 PM EST <p> A 29-year-old woman was found in a pool of blood with a slash wound to her throat in a Lower East Side apartment building on Monday morning , authorities said . But despite the bloody scene and gruesome injury , authorities are trying to determine whether a crime was committed . News 4 's Chris Glorioso reports . <p> Police are still looking into a whether a crime was committed when a 29-year-old woman died after being found in a pool of blood in a Lower East Side apartment building Monday , but all signs indicate her death was the result of a freak accident , sources say . <p> Carlisle Brigham was found laying face down with blood near her face and neck at the bottom of the first-floor stairwell of 191 Orchard St. Monday morning , police said . A 19-year-old neighbor who found Brigham tried to adminster CPR on her . <p> " From the looks of it , it looked like she @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were just scattered on one corner . She was face-down , like she banged up her head . So it did look like she tripped . " <p> Brigham , who had worked at the Museum of Natural History , was transported to Beth Israel Hospital and later pronounced dead , authorities said . <p> Sources later told NBC 4 New York Brigham may have fallen down a flight of stairs and sliced her chin and neck open . Officials said the laceration to her chin was bone-deep . <p> A man in his late 20s or early 30s could be seen inside the police tape sobbing . Brigham 's roommate was questioned , but he 's not considered a suspect , police said . <p> Police will also question Brigham 's ex-husband , who is currently in England , but they do n't believe he had anything to do with her death , sources said . <p> Brigham 's roommate told detectives he spoke with Brigham this morning and she said she was not happy with her life . Sources say there 's no indication this was a suicide @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of criminality , there 's no indication this was a killing , either . <p> The medical examiner will need to do some work to figure out exactly what happened , law enforcement sources said . <p> According to a law enforcement official , friends told police that Brigham was at a wedding Sunday and had been drinking heavily , and that she

@@5138641 <p> Do you feel that painting clients usually purchase the lowest price ? Well they don# &39; t often choose the lowest price paint estimate . Here are a couple of factors why.1 ) The cheapest painter is usually perhaps not the very best painter mcallen house painter . And usually the cheapest painter is a beginner , that doesn# &39; t understand the things that get into a great paint job , such as for example prep and security that include costs to the job.2 ) The cheapest painter might be low balling the cost just to get the job . That painter may not be a great painter , and may not have work due to the fact that painter is n't experienced . Can you buy the lowest price ? 3 ) Frequently clients feel that the lowest priced color estimate can# &39; t be respected for various reasons . One big reason is that the painter might take the deposit and maybe not finish on time or take a lengthier time to finish than is needed.4 ) Consider your own buying practices . Do the cheapest things be always bought by you ? Do cheap @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tools show that you buy the tool twice , if the cheap one fails and the 2nd time to buy the bigger quality tool . We all experienced experience with inexpensive resources breaking . Often the lowest price means the company skipped an integral part of the task . Somebody who is more comprehensive works out to function as best priced.5 ) Who 'd you intend to do work on your home ? Are you wanting to truly have the specialist with the dirty truck or take down truck ? I believe if the contractor features a respectable truck that the contractor is successful , and it# &39; s not only the truck it# &39; s the total experience of success.6 ) It# &39; s an unusual thing about consumers , often they 'll look at a greater cost as evidence that the quality of the contractor can there be . In other words the higher value demonstrates that the quality is there.7 ) Make an effort at hand deliver your appraisal . Never mail or send your appraisal . It says more about the company who hand provides the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ offer , not on your own measure call . I always try to be the last company in . I really do a two part phone . The first call is purely to measure , I never do any selling on the first call . I save yourself

@@5138741 <h> A world of culture comes to Mobile <p> MOBILE , Ala . ( WALA ) - If you did n't know any better , you might think it was a recreation of the Olympics in the Mobile Civic Center . <p> The Mobile International Festival celebrated its 29th year , opening to the public on Saturday , Nov. 17 , after entertaining and educating school children during the week . <p> There was parade of flags that represented over 65 countries but the flag carriers were all members of the Mobile community . <p> Joe Davis , president of the Mobile International Festival , said , " Mobile is an international city . There are so many international businesses and international communities , and it 's a wonderful thing for the city , because we are truly are an international city , and this just highlights that aspect of our city . " <p> There was international food , dress and entertainment , like the Kenya Safari acrobats . Many of the visitors came from very far away . <p> One was Kevin Allen , who came from Cockburn , Australia . He 's the deputy mayor Mobile @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " A couple of years ago , we brought the Murphy High School Band out , and they were absolutely fantastic ambassadors for your city , and , even today , that was about 2009 , three years on , people still talk about the Murphy band and how good they were . " <p> And , while in Mobile , the visitors from Australia have gone out on the town , enjoying , according to Allen , " very fine foods , and a little bit of entertainment at the piano

@@5138841 <h> Monday , October 22 , 2012 <h> Monday Motivation : Do Something Crazy <p> Since I 'm a writer , blogger and feminist it should come as no surprise that Julie &; Julia is one of my favorite films . I watched this great Nora Ephron movie Friday night and by the end my enthusiasm for blogging was renewed . I started thinking about Julie Powell and other bloggers who have been wildly popular and landed book deals because of their websites . The one thing these writers seem to have in common is that they were willing to do something crazy . Naysayers may call it a gimmick , and perhaps for some it is just that . But when I think about Julie Powell and women like Rachel Bertsche , author of the blog and book MWF Seeking BFF , they were all willing to do something that took courage and discipline , whether that was cooking 524 Julia Child recipes in 365 d ays or going on fifty-two friend-dates , one per week for a year , in hopes of meeting a new Best Friend Forever . And so I present a challenge . November @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because in November many of our ambitious fiction writer pals are busy with National Novel Writing Month , or NaNoWriMo . <p> So I thought , what if we bloggers had a project of our own for the month of November . <p> Inspired by Tarayi Jones ' #writelikecrazy , in which she encouraged writers to write every day for a month , I 've decided to launch #bloglikecrazy for the month of November . <p> Here 's the #bloglikecrazy challenge : publish a meaningful blog post every single day in November . That 's 30 posts in 30 days . <p> I 've tried to do this several times before and failed miserably . But I figure I 'd be a bit more motivated if I 'm actually leading this endeavor . <p> So are you with me ? <p> Project #bloglikecrazy will begin Nov. 1 . <p> Also , if you 'd like you can sign up for me to send you writing prompts throughout November to help get those creative juices flowing . Just email me at javacia@gmail.com with #bloglikecrazy in the subject line and in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so I can #bloglikecrazy ! " <p> So does this mean that after blogging for 30 days you 'll get a book deal ? Probably not . But at the end of November you will be more dedicated to your blog and it 's dedication that will help you make your writing

@@5138941 <p> City of Light , City of Magic : As goes Greater Cleveland , so goes the nation <p> Before we talk about Ohio , my home state where I was born and raised , I want to tell you about something unexpected that happened for Justin and me in the last few weeks that I hope you get to experience for yourself on a bigger scale in the next few months : the calm and serenity of terrible people moving out of your lives for good . <p> I 've had this apartment for a few years now and only had great neighbors in the building until the people downstairs moved in last October . Justin and I are on the third floor of an old Victorian here in Boystown that at one time was probably a well-to-do family 's home ( carved up in later years to make four apartments ; one each on the garden level and then first , second , and third floors ... our place , I think , was once an attic ) . I 'll call the people who lived below us for the past year Seamus and Sally , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this planet . <p> It started immediately with these people , with loud pounding and yelling every time Justin and I walked up the steps to our place ; because of the way the building was designed , the stairs to our apartment actually ascend that flight directly over Seamus and Sally 's bedroom ( which is not our fault ... and we need to walk up the stairs to get home as neither of us are vampires who can fly or turn to smoke to get home ) . This immediately freaked Justin out , because he 's the kind of guy who 's devastated for days if he accidentally steps on a ladybug or smashes a few flowers because he 's not paying attention to where he 's walking . One day I caught Justin slowly walking a step at a time , pausing with each step , taking ten minutes to get up the stairs because he did n't want to make any noise and upset the neighbors . <p> Oh , I put an end to that lickety split because we pay good money to live @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ our apartment like normal people ... without the neighbors below banging on the walls and screaming for us to be quiet while we 're just walking up stairs for a minute a few times each day . It 's just not appropriate for the new neighbors to pound and scream and attempt to bully Justin into walking up the stairs like he 's an octogenarian with hip problems because they 've scared him into being a mouse in his own house . So , I contacted the landlord and asked him it Seamus and Sally had been given a tour of the apartment before they rented it and if they happened to notice the fact that , yes , the stairs leading to the apartment above went right over the bedroom in the apartment below . If they wanted to live there , they needed to realize that people would be coming and going like normal regardless of their presence downstairs . <p> The landlord said he would talk to them and get the banging to stop , and it eventually did . But then Seamus was mad about that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Based on my interactions with the two of them , I 'm convinced everything these people did to us for the last year was 100% Seamus ' idea , because Sally was at least polite ( she even invited everyone in the building to a Halloween party when they first moved in , before they started the banging and weirdness ) . To be honest , I think Seamus had a problem with Justin and me being gay and living above them ... which is foolish when you think about it because Seamus and Sally chose to live in BOYSTOWN . Apparently , the same kind of problem is happening in the Castro district of San Francisco , too , where straight couples have been moving into the gentrified areas that have been gay ghettos for decades ... and then the straight people have a problem with the gay bars , businesses , and people who were in the neighborhood before them . <p> Things I 'd order from Amazon.com would go missing , despite that never happening ever before ; our building has no doorman but there 's a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ after we told the landlord to stop Seamus ' banging my books would go missing from the vestibule instead of being there for me when I got home each day ( the way they had been waiting for several years before Seamus and Sally moved in ) . " Someone " started leaving garbage and junk mail by our steps , when that never happened before the people downstairs moved in . All those flyers , takeout menus , local newspaper coupons , etc. that used to pile up in the vestibule were mysteriously being carried over to the steps to our place and dumped on the floor there ... making us have to remove those things every day , for no good reason . <p> And then the weird notes started appearing on Justin 's car . Nasty , vulgar notes that would criticize Justin 's parking ... always along the lines of " Hey , faggot ... try not leaving so much space between you and the car in front so other people can park you a**h*** ! ! ! ! " . Which is ridiculous because cars @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Justin does n't drive his car every day . It might be a week between drives anywhere ... and in that time several cars in front or behind him could move , with lots of people parking and repacking around Justin . If the note-writer did n't like the space around Justin 's car , then he should really be blaming the people who parked around Justin ... not Justin or his car that has n't moved in a week . <p> Justin was afraid I could n't prove it was Seamus leaving the notes on the car but I waited until the notes got REALLY vulgar and nasty , with lots of " faggot this " and " faggot that " in them and then I showed Justin how perfectly the notes compared to the Halloween party invitation that Sally had printed out and slipped under all the doors last October . The notes and that invitation were printed on the same printer using the same paper , with similar punctuation and repeated use of ( ! ! ! ) to end sentences . There was also a distinct @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the pages as it pushed the paper out after printing . I 'm not a forensic expert , but it sure looked like whoever sent the Halloween invitation was also leaving the nasty notes on Justin 's car . <p> So , I looked up Chicago 's discrimination statutes on this sort of thing and typed up a letter to our landlord noting that what was being left on Justin 's car clearly could be a matter for the police or the City if we needed to take things to the next level to get this to stop . I included the Halloween note comparison to those notes and a copy of the contemporary log I 'd maintained of all the little nasty things these people kept doing to Justin and me and formally asked the landlord to put a stop to all the things that have been mysteriously happening since Seamus and Sally moved in downstairs ... and let him know that if it did n't stop we 'd be forced to go to the City for help next . <p> We never heard anything else from the landlord @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ reply to me , other than a few emails here and there where he would use some excuse to tell us about something related to the building where he 'd always slip in an " I just want to let you know what good tenants you are and how much we enjoy having you in the building " line to us . We really like our landlord and really love the building ... but were hoping Seamus and Sally were just a temporary burden in our lives . <p> When they moved out without fanfare earlier this month it was a night and day change in energy at home for us . Justin and I had always been on edge wondering what Seamus would do next . Walking up the stairs , Justin forever had a panicked look on his face , hoping he would n't make enough noise to prompt a return to the banging . There are no more nasty , homophobic notes being left on Justin 's car criticizing him . The piles of junk that Seamus was clearly throwing on our stairs remain in the waste @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ junk alway stayed before Seamus and Sally lived in the building . With them gone for several weeks now , things are back to normal here , how they were before these two dreadful people became a daily problem for us . <p> Sitting here , I realize this is the sort of relief we 're all going to feel once the Obamas move from the White House to that estate in Hawaii they 're headed towards to start his post-presidential life . As soon as they step onto the 747 that 's going to carry them from DC to Honolulu next January , it will feel even better than Seamus and Sally packing up their Toyota and heading to Evanston or wherever . I hope in his post-presidency we see as little of Barack and Michelle as Justin and I are seeing of Seamus and Sally these days . <p> I 'm amazed , really , just how much better it is with those terrible neighbors gone . They caused a lot of tension between Justin and me because his natural response to bullies is to try to augment @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ remains as quiet as possible to not upset them . My response to guys like Seamus is to document the bad things they do and ultimately filed charges against them if other formal complaints do n't work to end the bad behavior . So , there was a daily clash between the two of us whenever Seamus would get up to his tricks ... and all that energy wasted on this is now going to more positive things . We 're both so much happier now that the terrible neighbors are gone . <p> I have a feeling you 're going to feel the same way when the Obamas are our of our collective lives for good , too . <p> Probably by spring of 2013 the elation of them being out of the White House will subside a little and we 'll all be able to look back on the nasty things the two of them did for four years and appreciate how lucky we are that they did n't have two terms to double this grief . Someday , we might even see a silver lining in all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ before another Democrat is in the White House ... and when that happens it will be people more like the Clintons , in the way the Clintons were the first Democrats allowed back into 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue since the dreadful Carters . So , we 'll probably have a nice stretch of 12 or 16 ( or even 20 ) years without any Democrats in the White House ... and a term or so after that of people who deliberately try to be nothing like the Obamas in the way the Clintons purposefully were nothing at all like the Carters . For a lot of us , this means that Barack and Michelle will really be the absolute most terrible people we 'll ever have to deal with in " the people 's house " . <p> And soon they will be Honolulu 's problem , so living in Chicago not only will Justin and me be rid of Seamus and Sally but we wo n't have Barack and Michelle as our " neighbors " in Hyde Park , either . <p> I ca n't even begin to express how @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ part of the Doom Antidote today ( not that anyone with any sense to them should be buying any of the Ministry of Truth 's propaganda and Doom Reports today , since it should be clear to you that Mitt Romney is going to win ... with the only question remaining just HOW BIG that win will be ) I wanted to talk a little about Ohio , the state I lived in before I moved first to Pennsylvania and then Chicago for work . I will always love Ohio , especially the Cleveland area I grew up in , but I left because Democrats drove all the jobs out of the city ( and state ) . If I wanted any sort of future at all , I knew I had to resettle elsewhere ... or just resign myself to living a meager life with what little opportunity remained in a place driven into the ground by the labor unions and Democrat politicians . <p> I actually keep in touch with a lot of friends from high school via Facebook and other avenues and I want to talk to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Ohio ) in particular since the scoop I 'm getting from them on the ground is fascinating . <p> While I have not lived in Cleveland in about 8 years now , I still think I know the basic nature of the people there . Greater Cleveland encompasses all of Cuyahoga County the way that Chicagoland takes up all of Cook County here in Illinois . Though Cleveland and Cuyahoga County are not one in the same , technically , all the suburbs that surround Cleveland and the city itself are the entirety of Cuyahoga County . " Cuyahoga " , for those curious , refers to the crooked , serpentine river that winds through the city of Cleveland ; yes , this is the river that caught fire in the 70s and the one that rats could run across by leaping from one bit of floating garbage to the next for many years . <p> I 've always been surprised when people say that Chicago is the most segregated city in the country because it 's actually a lot like Cleveland , where I grew up . In Chicago @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ kid places like Wrigleyville , the yuppies on the Gold Coast , all the cops and firemen and union guys in Bridgeport , the young families in Lincoln Park , the Hispanics in Pilsen , the lefty elitists in Hyde Park , and the blacks in the Southside . Because Chicago is so big , each neighborhood feels like its own mini-city within the larger City of Chicago . <p> With Cleveland being so much smaller , the suburbs of Chicago form something similar to the neighborhoods I described above . The gays are in Lakewood . The lefty elitists are in Shaker Heights or Chagrin Falls . Blacks are in Cleveland itself and also East Cleveland . The cops and firefighters and union guys are in Euclid . Then there 's a place called Parma ( and the nicer Parma Heights ) that always brings a smile to my face because there 's no real equivalent to it here in Chicago ; the people of Parma are mostly descendants of Polish people who came to America around WWII or so , and who have built a unique community in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ walking around in black socks with sandals , and a strong desire to prove how smart they are by always voting for who they think is going to win the national election . When I talk about Clevelanders ( and people in Ohio in general ) wanting to feel like winners by backing the candidate they believe is going to triumph in the end , a lot of that drive originates with Parma residents ( and similar people in Brook Park , Brunswick , Independence , North Royalton , etc . ) . <p> Ohio 's marketed as " the heart of it all " by the convention and tourism board but it 's really more the " bellwether state " because I think Ohioans -- and the people of Cleveland in particular -- are a natural indicator of what 's going to happen in an election on the whole . Despite a habit of repeatedly sending Democrats to high office , Clevelanders are n't lockstep Democrat voters the way people in Chicago or New York or Philadelphia are . I think this is because the suburbs of Cleveland have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ make fun of Parma for the flamingos and the socks but the people who live there are nice , hardworking , and love America . That 's really how most of the suburbs of Cleveland are ... so Cleveland itself may have had Democrat mayors exclusively since the 1980s but none of these people have been cuckoo birds or or Leftist kings ( like a Rahm Emanuel is , here in Chicago ) ; I think the good people in Parma and the other suburbs keep that from happening because the culture in Cleveland is not one that allows people to openly embrace the Left . <p> Cleveland is a place where not much good ever seems to happen and people tend to hitch their star to one crazy scheme after another . I 've written about this before on this site many times in the past , but through the years Clevelanders have hope their salvation would be a new baseball stadium ... until that did n't work and they decided it would be a new basketball arena that would save the city . They tried that , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a shiny new mall downtown . Or maybe a convention center . Or a casino . Or a new aquarium . It 's a lot like The Simpsons episode where a guy comes to town and tells everyone that the answer to their prayers is in fact a MONORAIL . In all seriousness , as someone who was born and raised in Cleveland , I can honestly say I am STUNNED that Cleveland has actually never built a monorail as the latest in a long line of " answers to our prayers " . It 's not that the people of Cleveland are gullible ... it 's just that they are open to just about anything that 's presented to them that makes them think things could get better if they give this new thing a shot . When it does n't work , there 's no grumping or recrimination ... they just move onto the next idea forever optimistic that SOMETHING , one day , will save the city of light , city of magic that is my hometown . <p> Please keep this all in mind when thinking @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Barack Obama 's hopeychange express was the monorail Clevelanders believed would save the day back in 2008 . They 've now seen Obama has failed , just as the endless stream of big promises made to Cleveland about one fanciful thing or the other over the years have failed . And Clevelanders are ready for the next thing presented to them as a solution to their ills ... and that is Romney/Ryan and America 's Comeback Team . <p> While it 's true that there are usually enough black and union voters in Cleveland to run up solid margins or Democrats in the state of Ohio , the suburbs around Cleveland that impact Cuyahoga County as a whole will not be voting for Obama this year . Democrats will not win Parma , and Parma is the key to Cleveland . The people of Parma gave Obama a chance last time and many probably enjoyed helping the first black president " make history " . But they 're over that and looking to the future now and they want the next plan to succeed ... the plan pushed by Romney/Ryan @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and a lot of my former classmates still live in the area or in other Cleveland suburbs . Reports keep coming in that these people , and their friends and neighbors and coworkers , are voting for Romney/Ryan . They are not sitting home , and they will not vote for Obama again . Many of them did that in 2008 and have decided " it 's time to give someone else a chance because Obama did n't work out the way we wanted " . <p> If I can communicate anything about Ohio to you it would be this attitude : you might not see Ohioans foaming at the mouth angry about Obama , but that 's just not their style . Ohioans are not complainers and are typically not as vocal or in-your-face as , say , Chicagoans . I am anomalous for a Clevelander in that I put my opinions out there in a public way . Most people back home are more reserved and not so open with what they are thinking or feeling . They just get up , get dressed , go to work @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with their families . Political involvement is the last thing on their minds . But they will vote ... and those votes will go to Mitt Romney this time . <p> Either Obama loses Cuyahoga County outright ( which could happen , because blacks in Cleveland are upset with Democrats over abortion and gay marriage and will be sitting home on Election Day in higher numbers than ever ) or it 's such an anemic win that he does n't get the numbers he needs out of Greater Cleveland to carry the state . <p> From what I am hearing , people on the ground in Ohio 's other main cities of Toledo , Akron/Canton , Dayton , Columbus , and Cincinnati believe black turnout there will be incredibly low as well ... and that the suburbs around those urban centers will solidly go for Romney . <p> This means Obama is one and done ... and out of our lives in January of next year . <p> I do n't think any of this sentiment registers in polls or is being factored by the analysts in the Ministry of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on their part , or they just look down on the people in places like Parma , Ohio and do n't stop to think about what these folks will really be doing on Election Day . I also do n't think Minitru wants to admit that Americans genuinely wanted to elect a black president in 2008 and they really wanted the man to succeed ... but when they saw he failed and could n't deliver they knew they needed to move on to someone who could keep his promises . So they are firing Obama and replacing him with Romney but they 're not doing it with any hard feelings . <p> According to my Ohio contacts , people just want the Election to be over ... for the Obama years to become part of the past and history ... and for the future to start fresh with Romney in just a few months . <p> Are you seeing or hearing anything like this where you live ? <p> Do you have a ground report that 's similar about your home town ? <p> This is an open thread , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ help people understand where this election is headed or give a fuller picture of the race than what Minitru is painting . <p> Gay conservative political analyst , essayist , author and radio and TV commentator on politics , pop culture , LGBTQ issues , and current events . To email Kevin directly with a comment or complaint about this or any article , do so at : HillBuzz@gmail.com <h> 100 Comments <p> Let 's talk Parma shall we . Yesterday 's Obama rally opened with 39 minutes of Bruce Springstein followed up by Bill Clinton . Results were a crowd of just under 3,000 . The last Romney appearance in Ohio ( without a free concert included ) was attended by over 10,000 . <p> If they have to include free Springstein and can only pull in 3,000 people to a rally they are for all practical purposes dead . <p> Have a certain number of " tickets " reserved for people ... and when that number is reached , say it 's sold out . <p> The venue could have room for as many as 4,000 people ... @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 2,000 tickets you had then you do n't have to tell the press about the other 2,000 spaces you had open for the general public . <p> All events have VIP seating , donor seating , supporter seating , and then the general admission . <p> Gen Admission is not ticketed . <p> Saying " sold out " means that you just had people sign up for all the slots you claimed were available ... but does not mean the place was filled . <p> Only 2,000 in Green Bay ? What a joke ! With the UW campus , St. Norbert 's , and the the four other schools in the area there are about 22,000 students add to that the hundreds of leftist teachers and you have an abject failure ! A good number would have been more like 12,000 . <p> Any presidential candidate has a retinue of about 70 or 80 , add to that the press and local party operatives . So out of the 1.000 maybe 700 or so were actual voters . That 's like a depressing waste of time . <p> So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ keep the lie alive . Brilliant strategy as long as the press co-operates . Of course when Obama goes to bed at night his fluffy pillow gets all wet with tears because he knows he is no longer the one . <p> Right on Kevin ! I 'm in SW Cleveland in a small rural community with great school system . I see equal numbers of Romney /Obama signs always near each other . Maybe more Romney ... <p> Cleveland city schools just received horrible ratings and they are saying state will have to take over . Do n't forget former county commissioner Jimmy Dimorra and Auditor Frank Russo scandal and sentencing ! We know the Dems are crooks here ! <p> but then you have the teachers , their unions , police and firefighters that hang on and will refuse to vote Repub in fear they will lose benefits . In 2011 , the state voted against Kasich 's union reforms while voting against the health care mandate so it shows Ohioans are paying attention to the issues . The unions did a good job scaring people that they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's plan .... Yet Ohioans did n't have a problem voting against Obamacare . One had to read the questions carefully on the ballot .... <p> Jimmy Dimorra used to eat there all the time . I dated a guy who was a waiter there and he 'd sometimes tell me when he was there and I 'd then come in for a meal and would of course get to sit at the table next to Dimorra . And I would listen in . I was always trying go get scoop from him or try to catch him talking about something illegal . He was a big fat pig who 'd just DEVOUR food ... giant plates of seafood appetizers ... massive cuts of meat ... potatoes , potatoes , potatoes ... wine like it poured from faucets . I have never seen a human eat like this . <p> Of course , taxpayers paid the bills for all that . <p> I never got anything interesting but it was fun always trying . <p> I do that here in Chicago still ... with friends in the service industry tipping @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ restaurant . <p> A few days ago , a high school classmate of my husband 's posted on facebook about her 12 year old daughter coming upstairs shaking her head after watching the second presidential debate . " I ca n't believe that man has been our president for the last four years , " the girl said . " Why do you say that ? " asked the mom . " Because he did n't answer any of those people 's questions . He went on and on about other things , but did n't actually answer any of their questions . " <p> Take heart -- if a 12-year-old can see it , maybe enough " grownups " can too ! <p> Kevin , thanks as always for your daily doom antidote -- I read every day ! I do think we will all feel so much better with the Obamas gone , like you feel without the bad neighbors . I know it will be a source of stress off my shoulders for sure ( though congressional Democrats will do their best to make up for the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ school assignment was to watch the debate . My daughter noticed that right away too . ' He did not answer the question ! ' Many of her friends were tweeting about the debate . In her school , Obama is not the messiah . The majority of the parents do not like Obama . But what liked about the whole thing was how many were tweeting about it and were not happy with Obama . Of course the kids who go to the public arts school did pull the race card out when on of my daughter 's school mates commented something true about Obama supporters that was really funny . <p> I 've lived in Ohio for 27 years and you can just feel and see the difference from 4 years ago . My hubby works at a Catholic HS in a predominately black neighborhood in Columbus and the yard signs are few and far between this time around for Obama . There are Romney signs in this same area and even a Black guy driving around the area in his pickup with a huge sign telling people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ drank the koolaid last time and are all voting Romney this time . He 'll win . <p> Hey Kevin- I am just a few years older than you and grew up in Avon Lake , on the West side . When you were describing Parma , I could n't help but think of the old Uncle Vic show on the radio late at night , and his parody of Prince 's Erotic City , called Erotic Suburb : Pink flamigoes on the lawn , Bowling shirts and white socks on , Erotic Suburb Wash the car And Mow the Lawn Erotic Suburb <p> Excellent analysis Kevin . These people are always looking for the next savior thing which is also called shiny object syndrome . I read another good analysis of Ohio on the web by a fellow working with pollsters . The northern and more industrial areas like Cleveland , Akron , etc are getting older and losing population . This is probably older union people who worked for companies up there when business was better ( 1960s to 1970s ) . These people have been dying off @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , have moved away because there are no jobs . <p> This fellow also said that the population growth in OH has been in the more conservative southern parts of OH . <p> I agree with you that the enthusiasm is not there for Obama . I also think he is going through the motion now and does not really want to win . It appears that the golf bug has bitten him . Golf can be as addictive as drugs . I am not kidding . If he has a coke and golf habit then why would he want to stay in the White House . <p> My guess is playing golf each day in Hawaii is looking pretty attractive . I also think he and almost everyone else underestimated Romney . Romney has been very successful because he has incredible discipline . This led to a good education , career and the ability to stay very very focused . Obama has no discipline except his " wife " and Jarrett . Romney is just relentless . <p> Finally , Romney has one people over as being professional , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ White Hut soon like Seamus and his wife left . <p> This is something of a preview ground report , because there is going to be a huge Victory Florida rally tonight at the Daytona Beach Bandshell , on the beach , here in East Central Florida at the east end of the " I-4 Corridor " . BOTH Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan are going to be there together , along with the " GOP Team " ( whoever that turns out to be : Rick Scott ? Jeb Bush ? Pam Bondi ( likely ) , Marco Rubio ( I hope ) ... ) . This is also coinciding with the height of " Biketoberfest " which is a Harley and other biker event . And the R/R Rally is going to be right there with all the bikers . I 'm told they wanted it that way . <p> The newspaper says they expect 10,000 ; I 'm going to attempt to go , but it 's going to be a crazy crowd time for this not so big beach city . I see 10:1 Romney signs @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " FOR SALE / IF OBAMA WINS " . <p> It has the feel of real victory ; I certainly hope so , if I have anything to report it will probably be tomorrow ! <p> Kevin , I am glad that you and Justin are free of horrific neighbors , now . They are miserable and will make misery wherever they go . When the Obamas vacate the White House , we will all be just as jubilant . As US citizens , we are the landlords of the " people 's house " and undesirable tenants need to be evicted . I am so angry that that man can call the murder of four American citizens " not optimal and a bump in the road " and tried to blame the 9/11 terror attacks on an obscure movie that no muslim had ever heard of when all along he and those standing with him knew who was responsible and they perpetuated his lies . But when it came to the anti muslim movie Obama was outraged and called it disgusting and inhuman and monstrous and he would not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is that the murder and unspeakable TORTURE of Americans begging for security is a smallish thing but free speech against the brotherhood of muslim is an abomination . He should be tried for treason and those of his ilk . Kevin , you say his drug use , lies , machinations and Allinsky dreams will all be exposed mainstream , in time . Can not wait . Thanks again , for all you do . <p> You are so right ! Obama is more outraged at that stupid video than he is at our citizens being murdered overseas ! He really thinks America and American citizens are the problem in this world . I 'm continuing to pray and fast to save this country from Obama and those of his ilk who seek to destroy us all . <p> Happy for you now . We too have " unloaded " very toxic people in our lives . We did the work of separation , but it was worth it . And yes , it is like a huge weight lifted away . It does take a little bit of time @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it does . <p> It is work to not go back there in my head , but also easier over time . It lasted so many many years that this is expected . <p> The rending of the garments by the Commie Kooks when Romney wins will be worth it in and of itself . The derangement is such that they have taken to denying polls that show Romney is ahead . They must spend all of their time watching ( C ) See ( N ) othing but ( N ) onsense or BSNBC , convinced they are unbiased . <p> I have tested this by commenting at such paragons of " tolerance " as Mother Jones or Alternet . A nugget of truth posted there is treated like a vampire when he has to confront a cross . <p> It would be nice to not be ashamed of the occupant of the White House and what he has done domestically and worldwide . <p> President BEBO ( Blame Everybody But Obama ) will be getting the heave ho on November 6 . However , do not count him @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to that nickname . If you thought his blaming America and apologizing all over the world was bad when he was President , we ai n't seen nothin ' yet ! <p> Ever notice that former democrat president never retire with grace and dignity unlike their Republican counterparts ? Talking to you Carter , Clinton and BEBO . <p> I ca n't believe kids this stupid are college students . I think if I were doing the interviews I would ask them WHY they are voting for Obama , and what they are majoring in . I think you could work that into the interview without seeming confrontational . I also think I would ask them if they know who Kim Kardashian is when they admit that have no idea who Ambassador Chris Stevens is or what happened in Benghazi . I will guarantee you , every single one of them knows who Kim Kardashian is . <p> I would also like to see juxtaposed net to this video , interviews with the students at Hillsdale College . I bet every single one of them knows who Ambassador Stevens is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . <p> Great analysis where you go behind the polling statistics to give a true picture of community mindsets . <p> I live in a small east coast city , one of the murder capitals . The kind of place where people have easy friendships across racial or cultural lines based on common interests but there is a lot of racist violence if you are a stranger to them . The city has crumbling infrastructure , failed police force , worst schools in the state , falling population . It 's majority black , minority Hispanic , white and Asian in the single digits . During elections , things can heat up and higher ups tend to stoke jealousies between groups , who never know that the people pretending to be enemies work together just fine on their own level . I know this from experience running for local office years ago and generally being around the fringes . At one time five people were running for mayor in a non-partisan elections and every one of them was a good friend of mine . <p> When people were remarking about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ already knew that term . Around here you would read reporting of certain black leaders mocking people as white hispanics and saying that they all ought to be together against the white people . I knew these people personally and in private life , when there was no election to determine who got a bigger sayso , they were friendly , pleasant , caring people . There 's a lot of theatrics that goes on around elections . For the most part , candidates are Democrats . They go to pains to point out that they are the " real " or " true " Democrats unlike all their opponents . I only found out by accidental slip of the tongue that one political friend of mine was a Republican . Some years ago it was better to hush that up , like a family scandal . <p> Lovely senior couple live around the corner from me . He 's retired and somewhat active in community groups . They 're tall , handsome , genteel . Their very modest house , as most are here , is immaculately kept up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ unusual in this neighborhood , immaculate . It sprouted an Obama sign last time . At first I was a little surprised but I think it must have been more for historic reasons . <p> I have n't seen any lawn or window signs or anything on cars . I check their lawn . Tell myself it 's early yet . It is n't early any more . No big sign on the lawn . It might be because a lot of people who move into this neighborhood go back to their old neighborhoods on Sundays . This couple does . So I 'm wondering if it has to do with how their congregation might feel about the progressive social issues . <p> It just feels like there 's no election in the offing . Nobody 's talking about it . No theatrics . Last time the mayor had a huge rally for the gubernatorial candidate and Obama . I was invited but did not go . It was televised . I no longer remember whether Obama was actually there or on jumbotron . This year I have n't heard @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they feel it 's guaranteed he would win this state but what about some kind of major fundraisers ? Maybe I 'm just too far out of the loop any more but I do n't hear a thing about any election . <p> But , no , I 'm not brave enough to put a Romney/Ryan sign on my house . My street is lots better than it used to be since the flagrant drug set across the street moved out but people still do drive through aiming to buy drugs on the block from those that are left .. <p> On the other hand , my grown son goes to school and works for the university at the other end of town . He reads Facebook and is on Twitter and all his information is about how terrible Romney is doing , people jeering at him , etc . In his mind , these young people are " everybody . " I am always gaping at him when he tells me their version of things . I do notice , though , that none of his information is about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he is . It leads me to think that most of their interest is along the lines of what Rick Perry called Hot Air : hot gas . <p> Four years ago , there were teachers my son had who were all Obama all the time . I 'm not hearing anything similar this year . <p> Kevin , talk me down from the windowsill . I just saw unskewedpolls.com and they have a big swing since yesterday for Obummer . What 's up with that ? If I got all freaked out with some of the polls I always checked theirs to calm down and today that poll freaked me out ! Between you and them is what 's keeping me focused and calm <p> I love you , girl , because we 're friends like that but you 're too old and smart to get freaked out or climb onto windowsills . And I know you are not an attention seeker who just wants to come online to tell others who freaked out she is . Sometimes in life you need to fix yourself a beverage of your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ few pushups or sit-ups so the adrenaline and endorphins can refocus you . <p> Polls are bunk , Sandy . Especially this year . Instead of looking at polls you should be taking a bigger picture look at the race and seeing that there is no positive energy in the Obama campaign . There is no compelling reason to vote for the man . Jill Biden is being sent to Minnesota to campaign there . Democrats are having to campaign in Oregon , New Jersey , Pennsylvania , and Wisconsin . The firewall has moved back to the point where it 's possible for Democrats to lose NEW JERSEY this year . That could really happen . <p> If you 're letting yourself be freaked out then you need to ask yourself if this is how you want to live your life . But I think you are better than this . I think you can control your freak outs and after Romney wins I hope you see that you were freaked out for no reason ... and that being freaked out is a bad thing . <p> Be calm @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And know that polls are easily manipulated to help Democrats . I still do n't know who is even behind Unskewedpolls.com . I think it 's a good site to see that there really is bias and sampling machinations put into this ... but I do n't know if that site has an agenda or not . <p> Will do ! I am pretty much always checking those two sites anyway . I probably should cool it for awhile anyway . I am checking too many sites but your advice is so noted . Thanks again . I guess I am like so many people ... just wanting this thing over already ! ! ! ! <p> Even without knowing anything else , the lost Evangelical Vote and the black vote that will stay home is enough to drop Obama from 52% to below 50% in and of itself . <p> Then add in Romney is picking up more than a few states that Bush won and McCain lost . <p> Then remember this about polls . Obama pulled out of North Carolina , The " polls " show @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are still oversampling Dems and Obama knows it . All things being equal it seems safe to deduct 5% from Obama from nearly every poll . <p> Finally we have Hillary cooperating with the Libyan Investigation that has already proven the lack of security was the fault of inaction by the White House . Bill has said that Obama has n't made anything better in reference to the last debate . They have n't forgotten being called " racists " in 2008 and it is payback time . <p> Add all of this up and the only reason it could be remotely close is the demographics of the Electoral College . Anyway we will soon party like its 2004 . <p> Let 's look at it this way . Is there anyone who voted for McCain last time that will vote Obama this time ? Zero . Ai n't happening . Democrats will not have the turnout as in 2008 . Those who want to save this country will walk barefoot through broken glass to remove him . Obama did not win by a land slide . There are no @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 2 in the last 3 weeks . I see Romney stickers . Comments sections that were filled with Obama love barely have enough comments to notice anymore . <p> Obama will get votes of hard core lefties . But the trend followers ... will they show up to vote or will they watch the Kardashians .... especially when the tee vee tells them Obama has it . <p> I used to be worried . Not anymore . I did have a minute of panic about that Nate Silver prediction , but then found out he only predicted the last two elections cycles ... but who could n't . It was Obvious . Do not worry . Obama lost his coolness . The media just are ready for his time to be up . <p> He wins Ohio , Virginia , North Carolina , Florida , Colorado , Iowa , Nevada , and New Hampshire . <p> I think it 's a coin toss if he 'd take Pennsylvania . If he would , that means he 'd also take Michigan and maybe even Oregon and New Jersey . It would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that would mean the democrats have no firewall left ... just destruction . <p> Obama 's last stand is in Wisconsin , Michigan , and Pennsylvania . He 's already lost the race in my opinion but it 's now a matter of seeing how big the loss will be . <p> Very happy to hear that your downstairs neighbours are living somewhere else . ( Clearly , someone who behaves that way has a lot of problems , but that does n't make your life any less miserable . ) <p> As for the ground : um , I 'm in Massachusetts -- blue , blue Massachusetts -- and I talked to a lifelong Democrat today who is voting for Romney . If you 've lost Massachusetts Democrats , you 've lost everyone to the right of Elizabeth Warren , and you 're going to lose the election . <p> Can not even IMAGINE what Ohio , Wisconsin , Michigan , Pennsylvania , Connecticut , Virginia , Missouri , and Colorado are going to be like if Massachusetts Democrats are n't supporting Obama . <p> CT , too , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and both houses of the legislature are controlled by Dems . But , CT went for Reagan . CT citizens are hurting . People are n't seeing pay raises to compensate for the price of food , gas and other goods . <p> I have seen only a handful of O signs around . I live in the country and work in a small city . I think the only reason I 'm not seeing more Romney signs is because I do n't think they stand out very well . They do n't catch one 's eye , especially amidst all the local candidates ' signs . And I was told by a member of the Republican Town Committee that if you wanted a Romney sign , you had to purchase it . Boy , was that a dumb idea . <p> But , I am hopeful that CT voters have woken up and will be voting for Romney . I mostly base this on comments from clients . I 've been discreetly trying to poll them . Many of them are senior citizens . Some of them have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do so again . Even my boss , who told me in 08 to get ready for " President Obama " many months ago said , " Get ready to say President Romney . " <p> A lot of people this side of the pond are going to be shocked at Bathhouse Barry 's ... sorry ... Obama 's defeat . If even half of what you 're saying about the feeling of betrayal amongst black voters in his Chicago heartland is true , he is going to suffer an ignominious and deservedly humiliating downfall . <p> That blessed feeling of relief that you describe is exactly how I felt when I read your post about Mrs.Robinson 's daughter and family looking for a home NOW in Hawaii . I had no idea how negatively this couple have affected me until I felt that relief.Thank you ! God bless your work on this site . <p> Your observations are spot on about the " Monorail " or " Next big thing that will Save Our City " mindset . Cleveland is far from alone in this type of thinking , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ declining get sold a bill of sale for : <p> Aquariums , stadiums , waterparks , street scape improvements , " historic " districts that will become shopping and entertainment districts , skateparks , dogparks , state of the art schools that will win back the middle class ( ask Kansas City how well that worked ) . Libraries , green space . <p> The residents are convinced that their failing downtown wasteland will be renovated into the saving grace that will make cities such as Cleveland , Atlanta , Memphis , Detroit safe and desirable places . What 's built works for 2-3 years , then the city is stuck with the tab for something that has quit paying it 's own way . Ask Atlanta residents how many times they 've been stuck with the tab for The Underground ? Or how well Renaissance has turned around Detroit . Or how the World 's Fair has helped Knoxville since 1981 . <p> The reason all of this has happened over the years is that many local jurisdictions have leadership that answers behind the scenes to the middle men @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Most of these " Next best things " are bond financed . <p> The middle men that do the finance often work on a percentage basis , so they want to run the tab up as high as possible on any and all of these projects . I refer to the , middle men as " bondits . " Bondits are the next , local problem that needs to be addressed by groups such as the local tea party . Cities and failing suburbs are getting buried under mountains of local debt . Areas that fail due to excessive bonded indebtedness invariably start looking to the federal government for solutions . " Lifelines " from the federal government are invariably tied to a cinder block in the long run . <p> An observation : Ohio and the north are FAR more segregated then Georgia and the Carolinas . Their cities have been failing for a lot longer time then southern cities . Residents of the segregated areas of the north thought that Obama would be their monorail . <p> Just like the " next big thing " that fails in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ suburban living black population of metro Atlanta would get a clue . I 'm generally the only white worker at my job , and the blacks that I work with ( excepting one ) are generally wonderful people . Unfortunately , to a person none of the others will hear anything remotely critical of " the won " . Maybe they have n't seen enough monorails out in their suburbs to get the joke . <p> Could you speak more about these " bondits ? " We just had a streetscape pushed on us and next up is the skateboard park . How might one go about finding out who the leadership is that is looking for these middle men . This is a topic which is fascinating to me . <p> Before most of what 's listed is built , a bond issuing authority is generally established . In the state of Georgia , the bond issuing authorities for different jurisdictions are passed through the state legislature . The state legislature NEVER opposes any bond issuing authorities in Georgia . So ..... find out if CT law is similar @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ authorities frequently are titled according to the purpose that the bonds are issued for " The Georgia Aquarium Authority , The Fulton-Dekalb Public Hospital Authority , etc . " Find out what authorities are established for what 's financed . Find out who 's involved in the bond hearings . See who 's the hearing counsel for the authorities . They collect part of the take . Have someone else that 's connected find out who invariably gets the take on the bond issuance . Then , you can grab election records to see who the bondits have contributed to . You might not have any luck in this last part , In Georgia , there 's a very strong possibility that money goes under the table to make sure some of what 's proposed ends up being built by the bondits and their buddies . <p> If we can inconvenience Kevin , I 'd be glad to send you some more background on this via e-mail . If Kevin can send your e-mail address to me ( I given him an implicit OK if he 's the only one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on how much of these set ups work . re <p> My grandmother had new neighbors move in who were like your neighbors . When they first complained about her walking around in her own apartment , she was surprised , but the second time she BLASTED them . They never bothered her again . It was one of her old lady techniques that caught people off guard , but she saved it for the big stuff . <p> Here is an Ohio ad running sponsored by 40 Ohio doctors warning voters about the dangers and perils of Obamacare . <p> Kevin -- I 'm in Cleveland Heights . I signed up via internet two days ago to work for the Romney Election day task force . Probably around 3 in the afternoon . Within 3 hours , I had been contacted by email thanking me for my information , and promising to be in touch with me soon . Within 24 hours , I have had a personal phone call , and two more emails inviting me to bring friends , and giving details on where personal training meetings @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ If this is the Romney ground game , it is kick ass . And not to extrapolate too much from this , but if the man runs our country like he runs the ground game here in Ohio , it is very hopeful indeed . <p> When I last lived in an apartment , I had a neighbor who would beat his girlfriend on a regular basis . She had a small child too and that really griped my backside . I would pound on the floor with a broom to make him stop -- or at least figure out someone could hear him and give the gal a break . My husband , then fiance , was none too happy with him either . One weekend I pounded on the floor , again , and screamed I was calling the cops if he did n't stop . He came up the stairs and started pounding on my door . I stood on the other side of it pointing a 9mm at the door with ammo that would punch through the metal and told him he had 3 seconds to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lord I was shaking like a leaf -- I would have probably hit the ceiling ) . He left -- got in the car and left . Thankfully for her . <p> The next day I told people at work about what happened ... oh , did I mention I " worked " for the police department at the time ? Come to find out , the gal was the daughter of the Vice Captain and that was his grand-daughter living there ! We also discovered a warrant for him for Assault -- of an 82 year old grandmother -- so I was hoping he 'd screw up again . <p> It was weeks before I saw him again , and it was when they brought him through the front door of the PD and parked him against the wall , in cuffs , in front of my office door . I looked , smiled and waved . <p> When the helicopter takes off with the Obamas from the WH lawn , I am going to be rude and sign , " Nah nah na na hey hey good-bye " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I 'm going to smile and wave . <p> People who never want to hear any sound whatsoever from their neighbors should not be living in city apartments . While it 's aggravating when people needlessly annoy their neighbors , it 's also aggravating when people think the world should be arranged to make their lives free of the slightest disturbance , and think everyone else should always go around on tippy-toes for their benefit . <p> I love your site ! I want to share a quick ground report from an area about 2 hours south of Toledo in NW Ohio . The other day I had an interesting encounter with the UPS delivery guy . He saw the Romney sign in my yard and said something like : " I 'm really glad to see all the Romney signs . All my coworkers are in the union because we have to be , but we all vote conservative ... " Granted this area is fairly conservative , but I felt really good after my chat with him ! By the way , I am a forensic scientist and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 5 just went to Michelle Obama live . She appears to be testifying to her husband 's character . If she is doing this now , there is a problem . Although they seem to be trying to rip down Romney 's character so maybe it 's part of their grand plan , rip down romney and put up barack ? <p> I 'm not sure how much newspaper endorsements are worth in the overall picture , but I was shocked to see that my old hometown newspaper , The Nashville Tennessean , has ( tepidly ) endorsed Mitt Romney this year : <p> This is a newspaper which has endorsed every leftist Democrat for President for the last 40+ years , including McGovern &; Mondale &; Obama last time , so I was shocked to see this . <p> It 's fun also to go to Dave Leip 's political map site and see how badly Dems have slipped in Tennessee over the last 20 years . Clinton won over 60 counties in 1992 . Since then Dem candidates have steadily lost more counties each Presidential election year , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ win his home state in 2000 . Obama was down to 6 counties in 2008 , though including the 2 largest , Shelby ( Memphis ) and Davidson ( Nashville ) , and he may drop to just those 2 this year : <p> I keep forgetting Memphis is Tennessee ... my mental block being in Nashville I guess . The Tennessean is losing money big time . They are not endorsing on their own ... they are lefties . However , Nashville is turning on Obama . Small businesses are hurting here . Williamson and Wilson are doing great , but they have been conservative . Mayor dean is making us mad with the property rates going up ... the Demos are going to have a tough time I think . I can not tell you the problems we are having collecting payment from customers . We service small businesses and dental offices . They are having a tough time . People are putting off having dental work . Even some of the upscale offices for the swanky areas of town are having a very tough time . I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just do n't . <p> You and Justin should NEVER be bullied . In my younger life , I was bullied and no one did anything about it , and I suffered internally . I 'm very happy these obnoxious neighbors moved . My best wishes to you and Justin . <p> Boy , can I relate to your story about sorry neighbors . I remember one time right after I moved out of a bad apartment complex ( I had people pounding on my door twice trying to break in , a drunk guy passed out on my stairs , and an idiot below me who insisted on banging on the ceiling all night -- just to name a few things ) . Anyway , I was mindlessly heading home from church one day not even remembering I 'd moved . Suddenly , it hit me : I did n't have to go back to that horrid place anymore ! <p> I think that 's the way it will be when Obama and Co. leave . What a relief it will be to stop having to look over your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ up on you -- or worse yet , passing all kinds of unwelcome laws behind your back ! <p> And just think of all the things that Romney will do -- from repealing Obamacare , to getting rid of the unconstitutional czars , to reigning in the EPA , to cutting the crap passed against car dealers and banks and landowners and farmers and businesses , etc. etc. etc . <p> Things are looking up ! And I 'm looking forward to voting -- and doing all I can to make this a huge win for R &R.; <p> As annoying as it is , I take heart in how ' noisy ' the left is being because it seems to me that when they are making noise ... they are freaked out and trying to cause distractions . I 'd be more worried if they were quiet because that 's sneaky-time . <p> Like the LOL sites have been pushing the ' binder full of women ' meme but is n't working ( in fact , one person said if Obama did so well at the last debate then @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ instead of Obama 's " stellar performance " ) ... more and more people just keep commenting and saying that Romney could eat kittens live on stage and they 'd still vote for him . <p> I am so sorry of the nightmare you and Justin have had to endure this past year with those horrible tenants . What they did was horrendous ! You did very well the way you handled it , good to hear you both have a good resolution after all . Great analogy in your post too , we live in Northeast Ohio . DH works in Parma , and the surrounding Cleveland area and has for the past 20+ years . I am praying Ohio goes Red for R/R . Your description of how we will feel after R/R gets elected is spot on . I ca n't wait , we feel that this country has been living a nightmare these past 4 years and that the sun will shine and all will be right with the world after R/R is elected . <p> I am a native Ohioan but have been out of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ feel for the state anymore . The OH stuff has gotten me a bit eeyorish ( sp ? : ) .... but then I put on my thinking cap . We are reading how Romney is taking FL , VA , and NC ( the latter months ago , I think ) . He 's in range in PA and MI . So I ask my Eeyore self -- how freaking likely is it that all of THAT could happen and OH STILL votes for the Forces of Evil ? Not very likely . OH always goes for the winner . I 'm guessing we still are seeing OH polls with a Dem skew . <p> LOL ! ! You sound like me . I go from feeling peaceful and confident this will turn out and then I put on the teevee and hear the " horserace " narrative and start to get the feeling in my stomach . Then I turn off the idiot box and log on to this site and read Kevin 's " Doom antidote " about Obama renting out McCormick Place and it calms me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he will save our country . I know some of you are n't religious but it helps me cope . <p> I do feel confident most of the time and dust out those pangs of negativity . I just wo n't tolerate it anymore . <p> Kevin , that CAC person who does the poll stuff at ace of spades hq has a thread up and I found this comment in the comments . I have to admit it gave me agita a bit but I 'm hoping you 'll tell us how to counteract comments like this and that someone will go over and counteract it : <p> " 51 Re : 43 , <p> Yeah , my big worry is not so much an Oct. surprise , but some big anti-Romney story released the day before , or day off , the election . Because you do it then -- it does n't even matter if it 's true as long as people believe it . Romney can prove it a complete fabrication on Nov. 7 and that 's one day too late . <p> I could taste @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ You have a way with words , Kevin . <p> Talked to a friend from my old home of Akron Ohio today . She related a story about another friend of hers there that is distraught with worry about this election . It seems the local news there is showing pictures of early voters who they claim are voting for O in big numbers . I advised her that TeeVee is not to be believed . I prescribed http : //www.hillbuzz.org to be taked in leftish ( liberal ) doses ! I hope she follows my advice . <p> It looks like Obama 's affinity for the Muslim Brotherhood is biting him in his asp ! The evening news is avoiding reporting the changing polls so what is left is Middle East terror ! <p> I ca n't believe kids this stupid are college students . I think if I were doing the interviews I would ask them WHY they are voting for Obama , and what they are majoring in . I think you could work that into the interview without seeming confrontational . I also think I would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they admit that have no idea who Ambassador Chris Stevens is or what happened in Benghazi . I will guarantee you , every single one of them knows who Kim Kardashian is . <p> I would also like to see juxtaposed next to this video , interviews with the students at Hillsdale College . I bet every single one of them knows who Ambassador Stevens is . They can also quote the constitution chapter and verse . <p> Living in Toledo and and also a rural area outside Toledo ..... I see a major change in attitudes .... As Kevin says .... Ohioans do nt really whine ..... we just give an aura / attitude that you can tell when there is something about to happen ..... Its like animals before an earthquake ..... people are behaving much differently than in 2008 .... I do nt believe Ohio is very close ... I predict a 5 point win for Romney .... ( my gut says 8 points but ..... ) <p> Kevin , I love your sight ! I know a black minister down here in NW Florida ( do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and there 's NO WAY he will be voting for Obama next month . He 's very disappointed and embarrassed . Your site gives me hope and happiness . Give Justin a hug for me . Sharon <p> Kevin , I totally agree with you about the relief we all will feel once the Obama 's have left the White House . I ca n't tell you how much anxiety I have felt these past four years ! I am genuinely scared for our country , and I am scared for my children . I have gone through a lot in my life , but I have never felt this way about our government before . I have a feeling many others feel the same . <p> You have been a wonderful encouragement , and your humor has brightened countless days . Thanks for all you do Kevin . I am glad you have finally found peace , and on January 20 the nation can have ours .... <p> Austan Goulsby is out there today , speaking for the administration . Remember he left this administration . He was on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ca n't believe he 's willing to risk his career like this . He is a smart guy but he 's trying to defend the indefensible . He should go back to his retirement from the administration . <p> Is it true that Mitt Romney closed down his firm , Bain Capital , and flew 30 workers to New York to look for the missing daughter of one of his colleagues ? <p> The fact-finding groups PolitiFact.com , Snopes.com and Truthorfiction.com all rate this as true , and media reports of the day confirm much of the details of the viral email . <p> Although the message has been filling mailboxes , brought to light again now because of Romney 's candidacy , the story has been circulating since he campaigned for the presidency in 2007 . It came up then because of a television ad that showed the colleague , Robert Gay , crediting Romney with helping reunite him with his daughter , according to PolitiFact.com , a Pulitzer Prize-winning fact-finding project of the Tampa Bay Times . <p> What eventually came out , as reported in various news @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of Gay , the managing director of Bain Capital , sneaked out of her Connecticut home on July 6 , 1996 , and took the train to New York . <p> The reports quoted police and sources at Bain as saying that Melissa Gay met up with two men she knew , went with them to a rave party , took several doses of Ecstasy and was last seen at a party in the Bronx . <p> When she did n't come home , her parents called police . <p> The New York Times reported : <p> " As the days went by and her parents , Robert and Lynette Gay , grew more and more frantic , they finally told Mr. Gay 's partners at the private equity-investment firm Bain Capital . A few hours later , executives of the Boston-based firm were on the shuttle to New York for a huge volunteer effort , harnessing corporate manpower throughout the city and immersing professional baby boomers in a youth party culture many knew nothing about . ... <p> " Bain Capital 's partners closed down the firm and drew @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . R.R. Donnelly , the firm 's printer , printed more than 300,000 fliers bearing Ms. Gay 's picture and last known whereabouts . Duane Reade , a drugstore chain in which Bain Capital is an investor , had clerks at 52 stores insert fliers in shopping bags . ... " <p> Romney was one of the founders and partners of Bain Capital . <p> Various media outlets reported that the 14-year-old was found on July 11 after police traced a call by a teenage boy from New Jersey -- he had taken in the girl unbeknowst to his parents -- who called authorities asking about a reward . <p> Lt. David Peterson of the Montville ( N.J. ) Township Police told PolitiFact in 2008 that police reports did not mention Romney personally . <p> But the Boston Globe reported that Robert Gay had kept the ordeal to himself , confiding only in Romney . And it was Romney , the Globe stated , who told the other 11 managing directors and they decided that a missing girl came before their firm . <p> In an article in 2002 , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the search for his daughter . <p> " It was the most amazing thing , and I 'll never forget this to the day I die , " Gay told the Globe . " What he did was literally close down an entire business . He basically galvanized an entire industry that just does n't do this , and got them all on the streets for 48 hours . " <p> My teenage daughter texted me that the house by her school that used to have the big Obama sign switched to Romney . <p> Yard signs are 5 to 1 for Romney ... on my daily routes , have n't been everywhere . I am noticing lots of local tea party candidate signs . I would venture that the majority of them will vote for Romney . That candidate 's signs are out numbering the democrat running . <p> Tennessee went solid red except for Davidson county ( Nashville city limits ) in 2010 . So seeing more republican signs than democrats is promising . My driving around has been limited to Davidson county . <p> Just a quickie @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ area north to Erie and saw lots of R/R signs along the way . Not a single obama sign . I also saw R/R bumper stickers and no obama . I 'm finally seeing more bumper stickers around here and all are for Romney . <p> Around the middle of this week , Rush had something about SE Florida . Two of the most Leftist counties went for Obama about +25 in 2008 . They are about 3 and 4 in population by county in the state . I would guess Bush lost those counties by about 12% in 2004 which was pretty good . <p> Well they polled those counties with good sample sizes and Obama is up by +4 . Within one of the counties , is Wasserman-Schultz district . She is the head of the DNC and in a safe district . She is only polling +4 to 5 and could lose . <p> Obama signs are very hard to find and Romney signs are everywhere . People had to pay for them -- so business people were having thousands of them made using their own money @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ own signs for people involved in the building trade . <p> Obama will lose Florida . It will not be close . I would guess Romney wins by +6 or +7 . The middle class and upper middle class Democrats or people who voted for him are seeing their pocketbook affected . <p> I think nationwide , these O voters who are people who were getting by and who were hanging in their financially during Obama have turned . Everyone knows some friend , fanmily member , friend of a friend who was comfortable before Obama and now they are struggling or broke . People they never thought would crash and burn have . People who are hanging on are thinking -- I could be next . <p> How I love Cleveland . It wears its heart on its sleeve . Our son went to law school at Cleveland John Marshall and I always had so much fun staying and hanging out downtown during our visits . My husband grew up in Beechwood . <p> Interesting your take on the political pulse of that city 's people . <p> One @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ too , hold life sacred . I know there must be more of you out there . <p> I will vote for Mitt Romney but after all my involvement in the lst election with my volumteering for Hilalry Clinton and then Democrats for McCain Palin I just can not do it for Romney . I agree absolutely that Obama must be defeated and for anyone who believes that Romney could be as bad as Obama I tell them -vote for the first term candidate because he will have to answer to the American public-Obama wo n't and further more the lame stream media holds democrats accountable for nothing . I became a republican becuase of Sarah Palin and the Tea Party . They are our real and only hope for insure a soverign USA . The neo-cons ( Bushes ) are progressives who will not keep the UN out of our business . The world is slouching towards a global dictator ship . I hear this from Washington insiders . I will support Mitt with my vote but if a true Tea Party Conservative like Sarah Palin or Michele Bachmann @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them . In a Romney presidency which seems very likely , it is important that we do n't allow progressive policies to further damage the Republican brand . I never likes the elitist Bush Royals . Prescott Bush was a traitor and George H. Bush was the first US president to sign the Agenda 21 treaty at the Rio Earth summitt . Lets make sure Romney understand the power of the Tea Party . <p> You echo the sentiments of so many of us . However , the first order is to see that Barack Obama is defeated . I know I 'm preaching to the choir but getting where we want to be -- a true conservative , Constitutionalist party and government will take much , much time and effort and election after election after election . <p> Our day in the sun is coming . Do not despair . But we need all hands on deck to unleash the power we have and show it to the country and to the world . The Left has engaged in some mighty magical thinking , putting the Tea Party to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ under the radar because you feel that our candidate is not ( yet ) conservative enough . I fully expect Romney to want to weasel his way over to the center after the election . Between the Tea Party and ( with hope ) Paul Ryan and our new , stronger Congress we will keep him from doing it . <p> It has taken the Progressive Left dupes a century to get where they are . We can take our country back much quicker than that , but it 's going to take time . Our next tasks will unfold themselves soon enough after the election . But do not disengage from this next crucial step . It 's the top banana . The big Kahuna . If we miss it , it 's all over . Happy voting . I wish you well . <p> early voting has started in north carolina and according to the civitas election tracker , democrat early voting is down by 5% compared to the same day of early voting in 08 , while rep and unaffiliated voting is up by a combined 5% @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ orange counties ( very left counties ... i live in durham ) , but up in wake ( conservative leaning ) . <p> speaking of signs ... in durham , there are more obama yard signs than romney ... but not neaarrrrrly as many obama signs as in 08 . <p> i did a drive through around my neighborhood last sunday and noticed that even most people who still have anti-prop 1 signs do not have obama signs . ( prop 1 was on the ballot in may ... anti-gay marriage amendment to the state constitution . ) <p> of course , it was n't just leftists who voted against prop 1 ... but in my neighborhood at least , the yard signs were in yards that typically sport leftist signage . <p> Your stories about the gay communities in Chicago and other places are quite the shocker for me . I guess I grew up near Austin , TX ( second highest population of gays in the US ) and they 've been there for years and they never gathered in clumps . <p> This I took from a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do n't have a gay neighborhood , the whole city is gay friendly . " That 's pretty accurate . Austin is one of the most friendly cities in the US and you 'll find a gay neighbor or two in most neighborhoods around Austin . ) <p> And from living there I 'd say that 's exactly what I saw . There are n't really places where the gays gather to live . They live all over the place and always have . Sure there are a ton of gay bars on Sixth Street where they gather to party , but they do n't form " neighborhoods " . <p> Even outside Austin in Round Rock where my dad work as a high school teacher they 're pretty spread out . You 'll often finding them living where ever . Heck , my parents knew a lesbian couple who lived right in the middle of a super-conservative neighborhood . They were known , but they were never excluded from neighborhood parties or anything . Everyone just agreed to disagree and leave it at that . <p> The High School @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lesbian club ( they split up because the homosexual men and the lesbians ended up despising each other . Go figure . ) <p> So the concept of forming " gay neighborhoods " is very different for me . <p> I am not sure if this could be considered a bright spot , but I think this might mean something : <p> I live in Oregon , as anyone who has read already knows . I 've seen more Romney/Ryan signs out , but I have seen a number of Obama/Biden and 2(Obama)12 signs . Bumper stickers are mostly Obama 2008 and just a few Obama 2012 . Very few Romney ones because of the unhinged leftist vandals out here . <p> TV , however , indicates a lot of where Oregon is going . Whoever is advertising more is losing ground . And Romney has not been advertising at all . Obama 's commercials have been on cable out here , and I see them every morning as I watch my 1.5 hours of ' Frasier ' . <p> Obama is likely to take Oregon by 2-3 , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ County , which is Portland , and the eastern suburb of Gresham . Fairview , Troutdale , and rural Multnomah County will go Romney , but too many in Portland are leftist-hacks . <p> Oregon also has Lane County , which is the Eugene area . That 's the university area . Lane will generally go Obama like Portland , because that 's what it does . Outside of Eugene , Lane County generally bleeds a deep bright red . But the Left of Eugene turns it to a Blue-Purple . <p> The bellwether out here is Columbia County , which is NW of Portland and is a mix of commuters and farmers/loggers ; It will likely go to Obama by 1 or less . <p> If we could get a lot of people out here to do more convincing of the rich/affluent left-leaners out here ... Romney could have a shot . <p> I was at a Richard Murdock . Chris Christie event Wednesday in merrillville at the Radisson and some seniors told me they used to vote democrat and voted for Obama but not this time . they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Romney support here . <p> I 'm not an Eeyore , quietly optimistic at this point . The word " landslide " is on my lips , but I have n't said it out loud yet . Only typed it . Anxious days ahead , but I think Romney 's got this . Did you see how classy he and Anne looked last night ? I want that back for our country . <p> jeeze ... how bad is chicago these days that you can still think that cleveland is a nice place ? ! ? the only more deserted , boarded-up craphole i 've ever seen is detroit but it 's a close race between the two cities . i 'm allowed to say so because i , too , was born and raised in cleveland and its ' burbs , although i escaped from there over forty years ago . it was n't the lack of jobs back then that drove me away but the fact that cleveland was always at least ten years ( twenty years ? ) behind the times and most folks there , much @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about ... much of anything really ... except for sports , sports , SPORTS ! ! ! ( what other ' major ' city would put grade school sports scores on the front page of their newspaper ? ) so it 's little wonder that , over the years , they thought that new stadiums would save them from total ruin . now we see the grandchildren of my generation in that ohio state video who have never heard of anything and consider that to be completely ' normal ' ( normalcy being held in high regard in that neck of the woods. ) obviously , you are still in much closer contact with the citizens of cleveland and its environs , so i defer to your superior knowledge and do hope that the vibes you are getting are the right ones . winning ohio would , almost certainly , put romney over-the-top. fingers crossed . i did get a laugh and a little blast from the past from your mention of parma ... way back in my time in cleveland there was a local t.v.horror movie host who called @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ went on to have a very succesful announcing career ) whose most famous ' joke ' was simply shouting , " PARMA ! ! ! " at random moments ... and making references to white socks ( never got what was so funny/wrong about white socks but i guess everybody wore black or brown back then ) . i even lived in parma for a couple of months and still never figured out what was so funny about the bland , little ' burb full of bland , little houses ... but i can see that there may be some validity to your theory that , as goes parma , so goes the state . as i said , fingers crossed . <p> I live in The Heart of It All .. Columbus , Ohio .. it was very evident , fairly early on that BHO was in trouble .. I am out and about all day in my job and talk to a lot of people ... if you only went by the lack of bumper sticks that was very telling ... not many yard signs and ton of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Rep. who was a very popular teacher .. won many awards , teacher of the year etc. and she is a Dem .. I see a lot of her yard signs .. but there are no BHO signs next to hers ... I found that a bell weather sign . The Columbus " Disgrace " Dispatch endorsed Romney .. and it has been leaning leftist since the Cleveland gang took over after publisher John W. Wolfe passed away ... <p> ok listen up , I have just learned that miracles are still likely to happen . <p> The ACT elections were held today . The ACT was where I was living for the past 6 years . It was moribund thanks to the ALP/Greens . <p> I have just been watching the early election returns and there has been a shock ! ! <p> There has been a swing to the Liberal Party and away from the Marxist Greens aka the Watermelon Party . It is not possible to know whether or not the Liberal Party have a majority because of the voting system . <p> I am shocked ! @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Party took control after Rosemary Follett had been such a stuff up . I just did not think it would happen again . <p> I am ecstatic because if this translated into what can happen in the Federal election then at least one of the two Canberra seats will end up being very marginal . <p> I should add here that the person who is the MP for where I was living is a total jerk . He is one of these warmist alarmist types and he really gets carried away . If people just stopped and thought about their vote then such people would not end up in the Parliament . However , that is not the Canberra way ! ! <p> So , I will update when I know more . This is not what I was expecting for Canberra . Miracles can happen , and perhaps this is an omen for your Presidential elections . <p> It is not all bad news though . According to figures direct from the AEC site , the Canberra Liberals have 8 seats , the ALP has 7 seats and the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Green Party have lost 2 seats . I was hoping that they would lose 3 seats but there are a lot of people with mush for brains from South Australia living there at present . The remainder are simply the rusted on Public Servants and you can not change their minds because they are so stupid ( they do as the union asks ) . <p> It looks like the ALP will continue in government , which is sad , but now they only rely upon 2 Watermelons for support . <p> My cousin , raised in Michigan , married a wonderful Ohioan . They reside there with their wonderful children . Her husband 's entire family are democrat , middle of the road dems . They fell into the thrill of Obama in 2008 . Fast forward to today , and his family is either voting for Romney or not voting at all . <p> He has a large family , so 48 votes Obama is not getting this time around from Ohio . While I realize this is not scientific , it is an indication and there are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ play if the democrat party can get their people to the polls . The same goes here in Michigan.It is my theory on why the

@@5139041 <h> A Changing of the Guard : Williams gets the nod over Harewood <p> The Ravens have opted to make a change at left guard for Sunday 's game against the Dallas Cowboys . <p> Bobbie Williams will replace Ramon Harewood in the starting lineup , according to Aaron Wilson of The Baltimore Sun , who cited two league sources . <p> Harewood , 25 , started the team 's first five games . Williams , 36 , signed to a two-year , $2.9 million deal that included an $800,000 signing bonus during the offseason , was thought to be the frontrunner for the starting left guard spot throughout training camp and the preseason . <p> Williams started each of Baltimore 's four preseason games but lost the job to Harewood before the regular season . <p> Prior to signing with the Ravens , Williams started 118 games for the Cincinnati Bengals from 2004-2011 , including 68 straight from 2006-2010 . <p> Williams had surgery to repair a broken ankle last December and , as Wilson noted , his ankle bothered him greatly and constantly swelled up during the preseason . <p> The 6-foot-4 , 345-pound Williams played left @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ against the Bengals . Since then , he 's played only on special teams . <p> It remains to be seen if this move is permanent . In each of the last two weeks , the offensive line has been dominated on the edges , not the interior , which makes inserting Williams for Harewood a little puzzling . <p> The offensive line has allowed 13 sacks this season , including eight during the last two games . Last week , Chiefs outside linebackers Tamba Hali and Justin Houston each recorded two sacks . <h> About Justin Silberman <p> Justin Silberman was born and raised in the Charm City where he took an interest in sports at a very young age . Justin is a diehard sports fan , whether he 's watching ESPN , listening to sports talk radio or reading the sports section

@@5139141 <h> " I never truckled ; I never took off the hat to Fashion and held it out for pennies . By God , I told them the truth . They liked it or they did n't like it . What had that to do with me ? I told them the truth ; I knew it for the truth then , and I know it for the truth now . " Frank Norris . <h> January 20 , 2008 <h> Whether or not you are inclined to support Obama ... <p> this video of his sermon this morning at Martin Luther King 's Atlanta church will be good for your soul and is an appropriate commemoration of the MLK holiday with something other than nostalgia . ( Click on Senator Obama - " Campaign event in Atlanta GA " at the C-Span link . A transcript is here , at unlikely ally Andrew Sullivan 's . ) <p> As I said , this one is good for your soul , even if you 're not convinced of Obama 's primary campaign message and are planning to pull the lever for Clinton 's vaunted experience or Edwards ' excellent @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @

@@5139241 <h> King 's Park Crowd on the Edge of Their Seats <h> Hockey -- Premier Division <p> Punjab-A 's Goalkeeper was unable to stop this HKFC-A attack as they sealed the game in the dying minute with their fourth goal to Punjab-A 's two in the HKHA Men 's Premier Division on Sunday Sept. 23 . ( Bill Cox/The Epoch Times ) <p> The new Hong Kong Hockey Association Premier Division field hockey season proper got underway last weekend with two Women 's matches and four Men 's matches . <p> As anticipated , the match between Punjab-A and HKFC-A at King 's Park was highly competitive and very entertaining . Whereas , the women 's star match between HKFC-A and KCC-A did not quite live up to expectation . The match between Valley-A and Pak-A was cancelled due a pitch watering problem . <h> Mens <p> Three matches at Kings Park and one at the HKFC were held last Sunday Sept. 23 . <p> In the first match of the afternoon , SSSC-A beat Shaheen-A by three goals to nil . <p> The HKFC-B match at home against KCC-A and Elite-A verses Khalsa were a formality , with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ goals to one , respectively . <p> Khalsa with their two new defections from KCC ( Hong Kong captain Harry Bal and Dev Dillon ) continuously put pressure on the Elite-A side . <p> Gurcharan Singh , the Khalsa manager , said that with the injection of new players they are eying the league title this year . <p> " Ahmed Abdalla Ewis Khamis scored a hat-trick , Arshad Muhammed got two , Harry and Dev both got one . We are going for the League this year . The two newcomers from KCC played well and we are looking forward to two more players from India to join us , " Singh told The Epoch Times . <p> The match between newly promoted Punjab-A and last year 's league winners HKFC-A lived up to its star billing . The Punjab team has been further strengthened with new players during the summer break and proved quite a handful for the experienced Club side . <p> HKFC-A started strongly , pushing Punjab-A back with their strategic pattern hockey and soon got their first goal . But even during that time , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , showing electrifying pace , accurate long passes and fine stick work . <p> They put pressure on the league champions and scored two goals -- one midway through the first half and the other 17 minutes into the second half . Both goals came from long penetrating passes up-field to a lone attacker ( No. 21 ) who gathered the ball , rounded his marker , pulled the goalie out of position and scored into open goals . <p> With the score-line at two goals to one to Punjab-A , the good sized crowd erupted and there was huge excitement among the Punjab supporters . <p> Club , having been in this position before , did not panic , instead they kept playing their systematic game , putting more and more pressure on the Punjab-A team . But goals would not come , the Punjab-A defense held up well and at the same time there could have been further additions to the score at the other end . <p> It was not until late in the match that HKFC-A turned the game their way . <p> An injury to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> HKFC-A leveled the score and then converted two more penalty corners in the last five minutes of the game to make the final score Punjab-A 2 to HKFC-A 4 . <p> Everybody agreed it was an exciting " edge of the seat " game of hockey . <p> Hong Kong Football Club 's coach Simon Chapman said that while his team was not playing their best hockey they were happy with the win . <p> " The A 's had a wonderful first and last quarter , but in terms of overall performance , it was a little disjointed at times and lacking patience , " Chapman told The Epoch Times . <p> " However , the general feeling is that we played well enough and that 's going to be important from game to game . Collectively everyone was very happy with the outcome and to get that first game under the belt . " <h> Women <p> Dawn Strachan of HKFC-B , playing at center midfield , was the winning difference in their match against CDR-A in the HKHA Women 's Premier Division on Saturday Sept. 22 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ match of the year saw the top two teams from last year in HKFC-A playing KCC-A , but it was a hard introduction to the new season . <p> HKFC-A struggled to find their silky touch , so much admired last year , showing a lack of match practice , with lots of handling and passing errors . <p> It was still nil-all at half time , but immediately from the second-half whistle Club 's Nicola Sawyer raced through to notch up the first goal . It looked like the " talking to " by coach Simon Chapman had paid off , but it had n't . Although they pressed , they could not convert another goal and KCC-A equalized mid-way through the second half . <p> KCC-A looked the more steady of the two sides , with some good defensive play and efficient deployment of the ball . Nevertheless , both defenses held firm during a flurry of activity towards the end of the match for the game to finish in a one-goal draw . <p> In the other match of the weekend , HKFC-B played hosts to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ generally a little stronger -- scoring two goals in the first half -- CDR-A were by no means overpowered . They held their own quite well with good interceptions and good passing , but although they pressed , CDR-A could not force a goal . <p> The key difference seemed to be Dawn Strachan playing at center midfield that kept the game under control by HKFC-B . As

@@5139341 <p> Kabam , a San Francisco game maker , is publishing two games inspired by the upcoming release of Peter Jackson 's " The Hobbit " movie trilogy -- and better yet , both will be free . <p> Under the deal , Kabam will develop and operate The Hobbit : Kingdoms of Middle-earth for mobile , and The Hobbit : Armies of the Third Age for the Web . The games are expected to come out this fall , ahead of the first movie -- " An Unexpected Journey " -- on Dec. 14 . <p> The deal is a big win for Kabam , which has been working hard over the past year to diversify beyond the Facebook platform . Warner Bros . Interactive Entertainment is co-publishing the two titles . <p> In an interview , Kevin Chou , Kabam 's CEO , emphasized that this is not a traditional licensing deal , where Kabam agrees to pay a huge upfront fee for the games ' rights and then bears all of the risk . Likewise , he said the games are n't solely a marketing push to promote the movies . <p> " We are aligned @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the games , " Chou said . " We are n't in the business of getting paid $1 million to $2 million to do a marketing promo for a movie . Last year , we did $100 million in revenue , and this year we are growing well over 50 percent . ... We are thinking about how do we entertain fans between the movie releases , and tie in the free-to-play game context with massive audiences . " <p> Chou declined to say which platforms the games will be launching on , but if Kabam 's recent moves are any guide , it could easily play across a number of devices . Last year at this time , 100 percent of Kabam 's revenue was coming from Facebook . Today , 70 percent of its revenue is from other platforms , such as iOS , Android , and distribution services on the PC , like Steam and Kongregate . Both games will be monetized through virtual goods . <p> Kabam is known for creating " mid-core " games , meaning that they require more involvement by the players than @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in line with the movies , which are dark and gritty . The mobile game will have an empire-building component seen in previous Kabam games , and the Web game will have real-time combat sequences , he said . <p> This is not Kabam 's first licensing deal . It worked previously on The Godfather : Five Families , a big-budget social game for Facebook . While it may not have gone as well as some may have hoped -- and was possibly hurt by the fact that " The Godfather " series had no new films coming out -- it may have helped establish Kabam 's ability to work content creators . In the case of " The Godfather , " it was Paramount Digital Entertainment . <p> Free is probably the right call for the games , even if Tolkien fans are willing to flock to theaters and pay to watch the movie on the big screen . For context , eight months after Electronic Arts released the ambitious multiplayer game , Star Wars : The Old Republic , it

@@5139441 <h> Green Room <h> Obama says ' rich people are all for nonviolence , they want to make sure people do n't take their stuff ' <p> On January 21 , 2002 , then-State Senator Barack Obama gave some remarks at a church during a Martin Luther King Jr . memorial service . Obama uses Martin Luther King as a means to make class warfare quips . He says , regarding King 's doctrine of nonviolence , " I do n't know if you 've noticed , but rich people are all for nonviolence . Why would n't they be ? They 've got what they want . They want to make sure people do n't take their stuff . " He then goes on to slam accountants who , in Obama 's eyes , find tax loopholes to " keep people down . " <p> Transcript : <p> The philosophy of nonviolence only makes sense if the powerful can be made to recognize themselves in the powerless . It only makes sense if the powerless can be made to recognize themselves in the powerful . You know , the principle of empathy gives broader meaning , by the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I do n't know if you 've noticed , but rich people are all for nonviolence . Why would n't they be ? They 've got what they want . They want to make sure people do n't take their stuff . But the principle of empathy recognizes that there are more subtle forms of violence to which we are answerable . The spirit of empathy condemns not only the use of firehoses and attack dogs to keep people down but also accountants and tax loopholes to keep people down . I 'm not saying that what Enron executives did to their employees is the moral equivalent of what Bull Connor did to black folks , but I 'll tell you what , the employees at Enron feel violated . When a company town sees its plant closing because some distant executives made some decision despite the wage concessions , despite the tax breaks , and they see their entire economy collapsing , they feel violence . to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege . <p> Not really ; he 's just saying what everybody @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ his usual twist on the facts . <p> Example : John Average hears about civil unrest in the city he lives in , and worries about his house and immediate neighborhood . Richie Rich hears about civil unrest in the same city and he 's in mortal terror of the welfare element doing everything looting his storefronts to

@@5139541 <h> Dating Question About Exclusivity <p> Confused City Girl asks , " I have been seeing this guy for about 4 months now whom I met from a Craigslist ad that I had posted stating that I was looking for an awesome boyfriend . This guy replies with an awesome e-mail and was very cute too so I make plans to go out on a date with him . We clicked immediately and have been seeing each other since then . We have been to concerts together , spent many nights together , planned a vacation next month , I have even met his family and they love me . <p> A while ago I noticed that his Facebook and MySpace claim he is still single . I did n't let it bother me too much but I did feel a bit hurt . Recently I have noticed that his text messages are less frequent and much less romantic than they had been . He has also been claiming to need a lot of alone time because he has only been out a long term relationship a few months longer than knowing me . <p> Last weekend I was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which is also normal . I noticed in his browser that there was a new saved link that was for OKCupid and I decided to click on it . Well , it automatically signed me into his account that was full of new pictures and a ton of e-mails back and forth with numerous women . He has corresponded with well over 50 women since meeting me . He also sent out an e-mail saying he was looking for a woman to wine and dine and possibly pleasure while he was away on business . He has recently met women for drinks and has told me nothing of it and also told me many of nights we are n't together that he is just hanging out at home or playing music ( he is in a band ) and so forth . <p> I was very upset and devastated , so I called him on the phone and tell him to come home if he can and he does . He tells me that he just wants to make sure that I am the right one for him and that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ these women like he does for me . He says he had planned on dating a lot of different women before he met me . He says that he probably loves me and definitely adores me and that he is almost ready to just be with me . He does not feel like he did anything wrong because he never specifically told me that he was not dating other people . I will admit that I assumed that he was n't because he seems so into me . <p> My question is this : do you think he is just wanting his cake and to eat it too or do you really think he just wants to date around to make sure he is doing the right thing with me ? Do you think will stop this seemingly obsessive online dating when/if he does decide to just be with me ? I am so very confused and very hurt and just wanting advice . I am very much in love with this guy and had planned a ton of nice things for his upcoming birthday as well as the vacation @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> Desiree , I feel your pain , and so , my answer will be quick and to the point : if he 's not exclusively dating you and ca n't agree to it now , then it 's time for you to take a huge step back . Sure , you did n't have the exclusivity talk , but you both can take responsibility for that one . He did n't tell and you did n't ask . But if he 's not willing to be your boyfriend ( and it sounds like that 's the only acceptable situation for you - nothing wrong with that ) , then do n't let him be and do n't treat him like one anymore . Cancel your vacation together and any other big plans , and then let him know that if or when he 's ready to start being exclusive with you , you can talk more . Until then , stay busy , lean heavily on your friends , and let him explore his harem solo . <p> Bang on answer , Bonny . This girl 's clearly being @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to move on -- as difficult as that may seem -- until she meets the right guy for her right now , or this guy grows up and wants to make a commitment . <p> September 15 , 2011 at 10:51 am <p> ( 2 ) Mama Kat says : <p> I disagree Vanguy . If they had an " exclusive " agreement , you would be right . But she " assumed " he was n't still looking . Not the same thing . So I would say , if you want to be the only one , say so . If he agrees , than he has to stop looking . If he does n't agree , then she has to either settle for what he 's willing to give , or , better yet , keep looking for her match . <p> September 16 , 2011 at 3:45 am <p> ( 3 ) Fed Up says : <p> Enough already with the abuse . If you are dating a man , having sex with a man you really should not have to ask if you are exclusive @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ will kill you only an abusive jerk would not be honest and upfront about what he 's doing when you 're not around . Women do not have ESP and magical powers that 's why it 's up to the men in our lives to be honest and up front with us . He does not appreciate you , he 's looking for someone " better " but in case he does n't find it he still wants someone to use and abuse . Kick the looser to the curb . No second chance , no hope for a future . He blew it ! Do exactly what he is doing , set up a profile on a good dating site , go out with your friends and have fun , he will be nothing but a bad memory soon enough . <p> September 29 , 2009 at 8:06 pm <p> ( 4 ) BitchaSaurus says : <p> You know what to do . He is a liar and a pig and he is playing you . Where is your self respect ? I 'd tell him to hit the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> ( 5 ) Chris says : <p> I agree totally ! <p> October 1 , 2009 at 12:21 am <p> ( 6 ) Serena says : <p> Confused City girl , <p> I can tell , you are an amazing women or else he would n't have kept you around . <p> As women we feel the need to give all of ourselves to a man . We think we care about this man . But if he was doing this to our best friend we would be telling her " he is a major douche and that she deserves better " . Right ? <p> We give our all to a man . However in the end this ruins the so called relationship . If he really had mutual feelings for you he would never start dating other women online or in person . <p> It 's like men think they have to have it all . It 's like they are missing out on something when they commit to one person . <p> A real man will know , you are a gem and that there 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hands on you ... <p> A real man does n't take you for granted ; he always treats you as a lady and takes care of you . <p> If he is pushing you away to date other women ; give him just what he wants . Let him date these low class women . <p> Let him realize what an idiot he was . Because honey he will it may take a few months maybe even a year . <p> By then you may have grown just enough to let go and realize you deserved better than his sloppy seconds . <p> Do n't let him fool you , he 's a dog and should be sleeping in the dog house . If you really love him let him go . Let him do his thing and you do yours love yourself and be free to date someone who is in to you 100% . <p> You may have to let him chase you longer than you like but it works . Men love the chase and when we give them what they want they are done with us @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dump . <p> Good luck sweetie , you deserve the best . <p> September 16 , 2011 at 3:52 am <p> ( 7 ) Fed up says : <p> I am the mother of a 21 year old son . No sweetie , men do not love the chase and then hump and dump us when they get what they want . You are exercising a predjudice when you generalize all men into one category . That 's like saying all women are needy and insecure . How is it you plan on having a close intimate relationship with a man when you harbour such bitterness ? All men are not the same . There are also some pretty pathetic women out there who will treat a man like crap and then dump him . Do you think a hooker who spends her days having sex with married men for money is a reflection on the whole female gender ? Of course not , just as some jerks do not represent all men . <p> September 19 , 2011 at 11:57 am <p> ( 8 ) Mike says : <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ year old guy who agrees with you that all men are not the same ! <p> I consider myself a good guy and have tried to communicate with a girl that I really liked about a small misunderstanding or conflict that I had with them and they automatically blacklisted me for being some kind of jerk or asshole that they went out with in the past ! <p> Tip for the ladies ! being negative around guys and acting like complete bitches will only make us guys think that thank god im not in a relationship with them , <p> Who wants to be listening to women whining and complaining and being negative all the time ? <p> I 've moved on and met a wonderful girl who 's very positive , honest and who I like a lot , I think men move on because they do nt want the drama <p> If they just want sex then forget them <p> Mike <p> October 2 , 2009 at 4:37 pm <p> ( 9 ) The Confused City girl .... says : <p> Thank you all for your comments ! @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ guy since my submission . He has met women from Craigslist for casual sex and from Chemistry.com for dates . I thought I could handle letting him be with other people and still see him because I do love him . But , I know I need to end things because if I do n't respect myself and i let him do whatever he wants then he will not respect me . I am also finding myself to be very passive agressive towards him and myself . I keep beating myself up over this and feeling like a loser who is n't good enough , it is so hard . I have never dealt with anything like this before . I have been in some bad relationships before but they ended with closure and mutually for the most part . Here I have someone telling me that he is going to be very sad if I leave him and that his feelings for me are very real and genuine . I also have feelings of love towards him so walking away feels very painful . But all the while he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was away visiting my family and going to my grandma 's funeral he was seeking out sex and dates from multiple people . It is like he can not be alone ever but that is what he probably needs more than anything . I know that if I leave him that he will probably just keep on dating and having one-night stands and probably even replace me with a steady " girlfriend " type of person too . It breaks my heart because I felt this guy was really , really into me and really did care about me . I have never seen someone be so two-faced in my life . Anyway , thanks for the advice and support . I know what I need to do and I think I have the strength to do it . <p> September 15 , 2011 at 11:14 am <p> ( 10 ) Mama Kat says : <p> Awww , he will be sad if you leave ? Too bad , so sad . It 's time to say ByeBye to this piece of trash , you are worth so much more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Go find him . And , have fun until you do . <p> October 10 , 2009 at 2:09 am <p> ( 11 ) Serena says : <p> Good luck honey . Hey most of us have been there . Trust me in a few months to a year . You will tell yourself . " What was i thinking " . <p> He probably is doing the same thing to most of these other women . So just wait he will get his karma and honey it will be full on . <p> Good luck . <p> October 14 , 2009 at 3:38 am <p> ( 12 ) Tammy says : <p> Sorry to hear that you had to go through such a painful experience . Good people are tough to find these days for certain . <p> October 18 , 2009 at 10:08 pm <p> ( 13 ) flattwist says : <p> Typical man , but if the shoe was on the other foot you would be considered the tramp of the year . I do n't care if neither of you talked about being exclusive , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ exclusive . My advice to you is to run as fast as you can because he does n't want you , he just wants to use you for his rebound chick if the others do n't work out . You 're convient for him to have sex when he ca n't get it from anyone else . Remember , never come off as being clingy or needy because that pushes guys away easily , and in this case that 's what you should want . Stay strong and move on . <p> September 16 , 2011 at 10:53 am <p> ( 14 ) mudneck says : <p> She needs to move on . He is looking to play , and the fact that she called him to drop what he was doing to come home and discuss it makes her look a bit psycho . Which will probably push him further away . <p> September 20 , 2011 at 9:36 am <p> ( 15 ) julie says : <p> You should dump him immediately . He is a cheater and a liar and full of s**t . This is not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it . He is using you because he is to afraid to be alone and meanwhile sleeping with everyone . Forget this person and change your number . <p> September 22 , 2011 at 10:58 am <p> ( 16 ) Melz says : <p> Dear confused girl .. You will be alright .. it 's better that you found out now then later .. And for the furture always stay ahead of the game .. Men are nasty , and will lie , cheat , and manipulate .. so for me as a women that has been hurt plenty of times ... I just think like a dude .. and in my eyes ALL men are the same ... And Until I meet that one person that will change the way I feel about men .. I will always keep my heart protected .. You will know when the right guy come around .. Keep ya head up baby girl .. <p> September 22 , 2011 at 11:20 am <p> ( 17 ) Ava says : <p> You sound like a lovely person who deserves a lot better than an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , " the fact that she called him to drop what he was doing to come home and discuss it makes her look a bit psycho . Which will probably push him further away . " <p> Even if you had n't had " the talk " , you definitely had the impression that you two were a couple , especially since you had planned a vacation together . You certainly had no clue that he was actively meeting so many other women , and having sex with them . On top of everything else , you now have to get yourself tested for STDs and HIV , and frankly , that is the worst part of this whole business . <p> Four months is enough time to decide if you want to be exclusive with someone , and a person who is really serious about a relationship would treat you much more respectfully . He would NOT be seeking out other women . <p> September 24 , 2011 at 10:05 pm <p> ( 18 ) suddenly single says : <p> Thank you so very much for you question ! @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on near the EXACT same situation ! Even 4 months timeline too , Except " my man " tells me he loves me and I havent confirmed that he has had sex with anyone but I know for a fact he went to meet another girl from a dating site .... We 've talked about our future together , we 've had great trips together and have two planned in the next three months ! The funny thing is ... my situation ... he actually went to " meet " a girl , but low and behold , she and I have a mutual friend ! She knew before the " meeting " that he was " in a relationship " and we were " unofficially " living together ! ( and that was his decision , he asked me to move in and talks about us getting married ! ) So , she stands him up , never shows ! ! ! ! I was traveling at the time so he was " safe " if he went and met her ... He texted me before the date and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ also sent her an email telling her he " showed up and hoped everyting was ok with her " and gave her his phone number to call him because he " really wanted to meet her " . I flew in that night ! He knew my flight schedule and he was a bit distant and had cologne on ... I said , " wow , you smell good " .. he said " I knew you were coming home sweetie ! " <p> I 've NEVER told him I knew about him planning a date with another woman ... but I did move my things out and told him my stuff was scattered too many places and I just needed to sort and organize and stay at my house a bit and take a deep breath , that we moved so very fast .... <p> I care about him ! We have so much fun together ! ANd the s*x is AMAZING ! But now I fear for my health and that is interfering with our intimacy ! We 've both pulled back a bit but still care for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 24 , 2011 at 10:06 pm <p> ( 19 ) suddenltsingle says : <p> SOOOOO , the thing that is eating at me is ... the girl sent him an email telling him why she did nt show up , that she knew someone that knew me and knows he is in a commited " relationship " with me and we 're living together and told him he was a cheater and liar ! He emailed her back ! ! HIS return EMAIL is what eating at me and has me so confused ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ( of course the girls forwarded it to me ! ) He never denied being in a relationship or living with me but said he " thought it was a test because he knows who her friend is ... He showed up to see who was going to show up ... and as far as the relationship goes ... he 's been nothing BUT committed ! " I buy it ! ! ! ! ! He still does nt know I know or have read the email @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ! ! ! ! ! ! Is he a cheater and liar ? or is he just playing that " he knew it was a test " card to see if it blows over ... but remember ... he does nt know I know any of this ........ I guess I just need to tell him I know and ask him what " we " are ... are we exclusive or free to date ? I think I 'm ok with being free to date others .... and I do nt want to walk away from him or our " fun " .... am I being stupid too ? I 'm so confused ! Did he cheat or not ? One of my married male friends told me he probably thought it was me and we were " role " playing and that 's why he did show up ... and that 's before he sent the reply email to her ! ! ! ! <p> September 29 , 2011 at 6:28 pm <p> ( 20 ) Kat says : <p> I agree with all of you when you advise @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , when a person is in love it is easier said then done . Knowing that the relationship is not excusive , that he is not taking it to the next level , does hurt a lot . It does n't make one stop loving a person right away . I would go the slow route , dimishing contact , slowly withdrawing emotionally , until one is not in love with this person anymore . <p> August 3 , 2012 at 4:17 am <p> ( 21 ) Luca Barone says : <p> Im grateful for the article.Really thank you ! Much obliged . <p> September 30 , 2012 at 9:06 pm <p> ( 22 ) sara says : <p> There isan old advice- when there is doute there is no doute <p> October 1 , 2012 at 5:23 am <p> ( 23 ) May says : <p> Dear Confused City Gal <p> i 'm sorry to hear about your situation . It sure sounds like your man is under the impression that being in a serious realtionship=losing out . I do agree with Bonny though . Sometimes , it 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the guy will know what life 's like without you in the picture and decide if he really wants you in his life . You see , it 's not enough that you see yourself as a " good catch " . He has to see it to , and unless and until he does , he 'll most likely take you for granted . Should he decide he does n't want to be with you , consider yourself lucky you have n't wasted anymore of your precious time on him . Besides , a break-up is the perfect reason to " upgrade " to someone better . Remember , for every man that turns you down , there will always be another man who wants you . And who 's to say the next guy you meet wo n't be better than the current one : ) Good luck ! <p> October 2 , 2012 at 10:05 pm <p> ( 24 ) Ebony Pittman says : <p> i have heard my brother talking of his guy friend friends , when a guy is single sometimes he maintain a social @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to safeguard and chose who among them will be the best. , a man that is not committed does merely practice exclusivity ..... <p> October 22 , 2012 at 8:11 am <p> ( 25 ) Larissa says : <p> I have a similar situation . I need HELP ! I am sorry to ask my question here and this help me a lot to hear that I am not alone . <p> The guy I date said he loves me and we seeing each other in 3 months now we are making plans to move together we have a wonderful time and everything was great . We should move together in december . We discuss about the apartment we want and home decor . We went to see apartment etc .. The sex is great and I am the 3 girl is his life which is hard to believe because he 37 and the same age . So for him as his said it mean a lot . And he amazing , honest and romantic guy . <p> Yesterday he told me that he need to meet 1 more girl @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to me and commit to me exclusively . What ? everything was so great . I love him so much . MY HEART IS BROKEN . I love him so much but I have my BIG EGO , my boundary , my self esteem , my self respect . <p> The question is : why he NEEDS to date one last girl before commit to me ? should I wait he do this ? And he said IF IF IF IF I do n't like her so my heart is all yours and we move together and do everything I will be yours ! <p> I want wait but if he fall in love with her ? ' I ca n't wait can I ? I must RUN now before I get hurt do I ? <p> Please HELP ME i have n't sleep since this . He said I am so sorry but he wants be honest . I ca n't change the situation now . <p> I am hurt . I talk ed to him and I said you must do what you think will make you happy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Now he 's calling me like nothing happen and I ca n't answer . PLEASE HELP ME ! ! ! <p> October 22 , 2012 at 8:23 am <p> ( 26 ) Larissa says : <p> -I am the 3 girl is his life which is hard to believe because he 37 and the same age . YES . He got married too young and when he got divorce he got married again and he single since 1 year now . So he sleep before with 2 girls I am the third . Please ask me question if you want . thank a lot . Sorry about my english . <p> October 22 , 2012 at 12:35 pm <p> ( 27 ) dating says : <p> Larissa , it 's time to walk away . For good . Do n't take his calls , answer his emails , or have any contact . He 's told you he ca n't commit to you , and it does n't matter what the reason is ( even if in this situation it 's a pretty callous reason ) . Watch his @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ other women , he 's not ready or able to commit to you . Please get support from your friends and family to help you through this , as well as counseling if you feel you ca n't sleep , eat or work because of this situation . I wish you the best of luck , and do keep us posted as to how you 're doing . <p> October 22 , 2012 at 6:29 pm <p> ( 28 ) Larissa says : <p> I DID IT ! I wrote along letter and made it clear that he CAN NOT come back to me IF IF IF he fail with this girl he wants meet . Because I told him I must think about myself respect and my Ego not let me do it . And my what are my boundaries . I am the number or nothing I said . I am not a reserve . I ca n't accept this kind the behavior in a men . I wrote I will not sit here and wait he decide what he decide . It 's over I am going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now either . I ca n't offer him anything right now and I will ask my friend to go there and get all my stuff from his house . Because he was trying to tell me what he was doing yesterday i did n't answer him ... I did n't ask him to be or choose me I was calm but very determined what I want . I wrote there are many men because is true that want meet me so I am moving on . I know his in chock too now after read my email .. <p> I am so WOW I am soo relieved to finish and do n't want wait like he wants ! NO WAY ! <p> Well I am in tears ... I have call some friends I have talk about it all day = ( but everybody think I did great . I did okay I think DO NT I ? <p> Well let see what happen now ... I a move on ... it 's hard but I ca n't go back now .. I do n't want to see him or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> There is any chance he change his mind now ? <p> October 23 , 2012 at 7:47 pm <p> ( 29 ) Larissa says : <p> Hi everyone ! thanks that this page exist on the internet . God I am devastated . <p> He complete ignored my email ! and now he has sent me 2 emails with other subject not the subject I wrote- " I am moving on .... " and he did n't say anything about it . WHY ? He wrote he had a hard day at work and he also think about me . He called me 5 times and I have n't answer any emails or any call from him . <p> HELP I almost answer the last call ... I ca n't do it . <p> November 12 , 2012 at 12:13 am <p> ( 30 ) Bethere says : <p> Larissa , i really feel for you . If you wan na resist the urge to answer his call , you may want to call somebody else , like your best friends . Or , you can call this new @ @

@@5139641 <h> Consecration of the State of California by Bishop William Weigand <p> October 7th , 2012 by Gabriel McAuliffe <p> From a Letter sent to the Faithful of the Diocese : <p> Dear Friends in Christ : <p> It is indeed with a joyous sense of celebration that we gather for the 41st anniversary of our diocesan Mary 's Hour . I am pleased to see this occasion return to the importance of bygone days when thousands gathered at Edmonds Field for this traditional May crowning . This is truly a day for rejoicing . <p> The theme of this year 's event , Mary -- Sign of Hope , is a reminder that in this time of many challenges , Mary can ably guide us along the way to greater spiritual development . Mary is the first and foremost disciple of Christ , and it was she who first presented Jesus to the world . Today , too , Mary can lead us to Jesus and help us more and more to be his true disciples . May we keep our hearts and minds ever open to receive the Lord in faith , as we gather around Mary @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and peoples , you who know peoples sufferings and their hopes , you who have a mother 's awareness of all the struggles between good and evil , between light and darkness , which affect the modern world , accept the cry which we , moved by the Holy Spirit , address directly to your heart . Embrace , with the love of the Mother and Handmaid of the Lord , this human world of ours , this State of California , our diocese , our parishes , our families , and all our brothers and sisters . We entrust and consecrate them to you , for we are full of concern for both the elderly and the eternal destiny of everyone . <p> In a special way , we entrust and consecrate to you those individuals and nations which particularly need to be entrusted and consecrated . " We have recourse to your protection , holy Mother of God " ; despise not our petitions in our necessities . <p> Behold , as we come before you , Mother of Christ , before your Immaculate Heart , we desire @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with the consecration which , for love of us , your Son made of Himself to the Father : " For their sake , " he said , " I consecrate myself that they may be consecrated in the truth " ( Jn 17:19 ) . We wish to unite ourselves with our Redeemer in this , His consecration for the world and for the human race , which , in His Divine Heart , has the power to obtain pardon and to secure reparation . <p> Above all creatures , Mary , may you be blessed , you , the Handmaid of the Lord , who , in the fullest way , obeyed the divine call ! Hail to you who are wholly united to the redeeming consecration of your Son ! Mother of the Church , enlighten the people of God along the paths of faith , hope and love ! Help us to live in the truth of the consecration of Christ for the entire modern world . <p> Immaculate Heart , help us to conquer the menace of evil , which so easily takes root in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ effects already weigh down upon our modern world and seem to block the paths toward the future . <p> From famine and war , deliver us . From nuclear war , from incalculable self-destruction , from every kind of war , deliver us . From sins against human life from its very beginning to natural death , deliver us . <p> From hatred and from the demeaning of the dignity of the children of God , deliver us . From every injustice in the life of society , both national and international , deliver us . From readiness to trample on the commandments of God , deliver us . <p> From attempts to stifle in human hearts the very truth of God , deliver us . From the loss of awareness of good and evil , deliver us . <p> From sins against the Holy Spirit , deliver us . <p> Accept , O Mother of Christ , this cry laden with the sufferings of all individual human beings , laden with the sufferings of whole societies . Help us with the power of the Holy Spirit to conquer all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ world " , sin in all its manifestations . Let there be revealed , once more , in the history of the world , the infinite saving power of the Redemption : the power of merciful love ! May it put a stop to evil ! May it transform our consciences ! May your Immaculate Comment moderation is enabled and may delay your comment . There is no need to resubmit your comment . <h> Welcome <p> The Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel and the Holy Mother St. Teresa welcomes you to our website . As people practicing the Catholic Faith , our community members strive to follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ within the Catholic Church , according to the tradition and inspiration of the Carmelite Religious Order

@@5139741 <h> pixie wont come out of his burrow he is hiding in <p> This is a discussion on pixie wont come out of his burrow he is hiding in within the African Bullfrogs forums , part of the Frogs &; Toads category ; ive had a pixie for about a month now and one day his light went out so he did nt have ... <h> pixie wont come out of his burrow he is hiding in <p> ive had a pixie for about a month now and one day his light went out so he did nt have alot of heat but i could keep it up to 75/80 for the 3 days the pet stores were closed . he was eating normal untill the last day before i got the light when he decided to fully cover himself in dirt and not come out to eat . i got the bulb and got the proper temps but he still wouldnt come out for the next 5 days so i thought he was trying to aestivate. since he s so young i started heavily misting the tank to get the ground wet and kept the temps up to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ after hibernating when there in the wild . he still wont come out to eat and im getting a bit worried , have tried to dig him out but he just growls at me loudly and since i cant fully tell where he is i do nt want to hurt him trying to get him out . what should i do now besides keeping the tank humid and the temps back to normal ? <h> Re : pixie wont come out of his burrow he is hiding in <p> Originally Posted by mafoo <p> ive had a pixie for about a month now and one day his light went out so he did nt have alot of heat but i could keep it up to 75/80 for the 3 days the pet stores were closed . he was eating normal untill the last day before i got the light when he decided to fully cover himself in dirt and not come out to eat . i got the bulb and got the proper temps but he still wouldnt come out for the next 5 days so i thought he was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ heavily misting the tank to get the ground wet and kept the temps up to maybe make him want to come out like rain would after hibernating when there in the wild . he still wont come out to eat and im getting a bit worried , have tried to dig him out but he just growls at me loudly and since i cant fully tell where he is i do nt want to hurt him trying to get him out . what should i do now besides keeping the tank humid and the temps back to normal ? <p> Very gently wipe away the substrate layer by layer until you find him . When you do be sure to have a warm de-chlorinated bath ready for him no deeper than up to his chin . Soak him for 20 minutes and prepare a second bath that is also warm as the other bath cools and soak for 15 minutes . Then place him back home . Keep his temp up and his humidity at 80% and he should come out of it . <h> Re : pixie wont come @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ grif , will try and get that done tommorow morning since its already late here and its almost my other animals bedtime . any suggestions on handling him ? he is so aggresive and probably since he has nt eaten in a while im geussing he will want to eat anything he can , more so then he normaly is like . im afriad for when he s full grown so any tips will definately help ! <h> Re : pixie wont come out of his burrow he is hiding in <p> so good news is i know where he is and he isnt that far down , bad news is i cant manage to find a way to get him out . whenever i try to move his plant to get to him so i can grab him he starts hissing and if i brush away the dirt overtop of him he hisses at me to . he is such an aggresive frog im scared he will bite me and he s probably scared im going to hurt him . should i just man up and quickly grab him @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? <h> Re : pixie wont come out of his burrow he is hiding in <p> Originally Posted by mafoo <p> so good news is i know where he is and he isnt that far down , bad news is i cant manage to find a way to get him out . whenever i try to move his plant to get to him so i can grab him he starts hissing and if i brush away the dirt overtop of him he hisses at me to . he is such an aggresive frog im scared he will bite me and he s probably scared im going to hurt him . should i just man up and quickly grab him while he hisses or would that be a bad idea ? <p> You always want to avoid their face . Go at him from behind and be gentle yet firm so he does n't break loose from your grip . When dealing with large aggressive frogs there is always a chance you could get bit . Try your best to avoid it by avoiding the frogs face . Be careful and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be fine . Do be quick because the less time you 're handling him the less chance he has to bite you . <h> Re : pixie wont come out of his burrow he is hiding in <p> major problem here i think , i got him out of his tank and he was ready to eat so i offered a night crawler but instead he decided to go poop. after he finished i noticed a red thing sticking out ! ive read about prolapses and that kind of thing but this is just freaky ... i thought he was having a bloody poop but its not coming out and its just sticking out , really worried , rest of his poop was fine but the red thing isnt going back in/coming out so i do nt know whats going on with him . no clue what to do now <p> edit : right as i finished writing this post it went back in. is this normal ? ? ? <h> Re : pixie wont come out of his burrow he is hiding in <p> Originally Posted by mafoo <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of his tank and he was ready to eat so i offered a night crawler but instead he decided to go poop. after he finished i noticed a red thing sticking out ! ive read about prolapses and that kind of thing but this is just freaky ... i thought he was having a bloody poop but its not coming out and its just sticking out , really worried , rest of his poop was fine but the red thing isnt going back in/coming out so i do nt know whats going on with him . no clue what to do now <p> edit : right as i finished writing this post it went back in. is this normal ? ? ? <p> No it is n't normal . It is good that the prolapse went back in , but it may be swelled slightly . Prepare another bath of luke warm de-chlorinated water and dialogs 4 to 5 drops of honey in and then soak your frog for 20 minutes . Pour some of the Honey/water solution over his back too . After the 20 minutes are up . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ de-chlorinated water and place him back in the enclosure in his dish and leave him be . Keep his temps at 80 F and humidity at 80% . Keep a close eye on him for a few days . <h> Re : pixie wont come out of his burrow he is hiding in <p> will get all that done today . i normaly feed him nightcrawlers and occasionly throw some crickets in his tank if he does nt eat much that day so he can munch on them throughout the day . i feed him every day and he normaly eats 4-6 nightcrawlers. he has nt eaten in the days he was buried though so this was probably from the day before he started hiding which he did nt eat much , only around 2 nightcrawlers because he was having a bit of problems getting them in his mouth to actualy eat so he just stopped after fighting with the second one . <h> Re : pixie wont come out of his burrow he is hiding in <p> Originally Posted by mafoo <p> will get all that done today . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in his tank if he does nt eat much that day so he can munch on them throughout the day . i feed him every day and he normaly eats 4-6 nightcrawlers. he has nt eaten in the days he was buried though so this was probably from the day before he started hiding which he did nt eat much , only around 2 nightcrawlers because he was having a bit of problems getting them in his mouth to actualy eat so he just stopped after fighting with the second one . <p> Do you dust his food with Calcium with D3 and a Multivitamin with Vitamin A ? <h> Re : pixie wont come out of his burrow he is hiding in <p> every couple feedings i dust it with repashy calcium plus but now after a bit of reading on this forum im thinking ill use the repashy calcium plus once every 3-4 days and straight calcium every 1 or two feedings just so i do nt overdose on the multivitamin . <p> right now my frog is inside his tank after i cleaned it all up and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ like he always does . he is very active after the bath and was swimming around in the little bit of water that was inside there and just finished exploring his tank . thanks for all the help ! do nt know what i would have done without you ! <h> Re : pixie wont come out of his burrow he is hiding in <p> Originally Posted by mafoo <p> every couple feedings i dust it with repashy calcium plus but now after a bit of reading on this forum im thinking ill use the repashy calcium plus once every 3-4 days and straight calcium every 1 or two feedings just so i do nt overdose on the multivitamin . <p> right now my frog is inside his tank after i cleaned it all up and he s just digging a new hole to hide in like he always does . he is very active after the bath and was swimming around in the little bit of water that was inside there and just finished exploring his tank . thanks for all the help ! do nt know what i @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ welcome and I 'm glad I could help . Keep his climate consistent with very little fluctuation and he should n't try and aestivate anymore . Occasionally they will burrow all the way , but usually come back out after a day or so . He should be ok now . Keep an eye on his bowel movements and if he has another prolapse perform the honey bath as I instructed and depending on how bad it is ask for advise if worse than this one . <h> Re : pixie wont come out of his burrow he is hiding in <p> alright ill keep an eye on things and now i will keep a extra bulb for when the other one goes out to avoid this situation.i will be back if the prolapse comes

@@5139841 <h> On the way to Torres del Paine <p> The Torres del Paine national park in Chile will make you fly , the winds there are really that strong . However , the beauty of the place is unsurpassed . We were in Torres del Paine during the freezing patagonian winter . The temperature was below zero degrees and the wind was blowing by

@@5139941 <p> First , it was Greece who failed to stick with the " do not rock the boat until the US election " script so meticulously crafted by Tim Geithner , and now it is Italy 's turn as Europe threatens to come unhinged precisely in the week when complete peace and quiet is needed to avoid deflecting attention from the peak season of the US presidential theater . As Reuters reports , " Tens of thousands of people marched through Rome in a " No Monti Day " on Saturday , some throwing eggs and spraying graffiti to protest against austerity measures introduced by Prime Minister Mario Monti 's government . Appointed in November when Italy risked being sucked into the euro zone debt crisis , Monti has pushed through painful austerity measures to cut the country 's massive debt , including tax hikes , spending cuts and a pension overhaul . " We are here against Monti and his politics , the same politics as all over Europe , that brought Greece to its knees and that are destroying half of Europe , public schools , health care , " said demonstrator Giorgio Cremaschi ... In another @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ scuffled with police near where Monti was addressing a rally on the theme of family values . " <p> So who gets to capitalize on the latest bout of surging discontent with the Goldman appointed technocrat ? Why the same man who yesterday was sentenced to several years in jail ( a sentence that will be never carried out of course ) , Silvio Berlusconi , and whom the ECB singlehandedly took down nearly a year ago , when it sent Italian bond yields to record highs : " The center-right bloc will decide " in the next few days " whether to withdraw confidence for Prime Minister Mario Monti in parliament or support him until elections in April , former Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said on Saturday . Monti 's government of non-elected technocrats is backed by the center-left , the center and the center-right . It would have to resign if it lost the support of the entire center-right . " <p> In other words , the man that many left for politically dead in the always entertaining Italian political scene , is about to come back with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that Goldman repossessed a year earlier . <p> " We have to recognize the fact that the initiative of this government is a continuation of a spiral of recession for our economy , " Berlusconi told a news conference in northern Italy a day after he was convicted and sentenced to four years for tax fraud related to his Mediaset media empire . <p> " Together with my collaborators we will decide in the next few days whether it is better to immediately withdraw our confidence in this government or keep it , given the elections that are scheduled , " he said . <p> The Monti government of non-elected technocrats is supported by the centre-left , the centre-right and the centre . It would lose its majority and have to resign if the entire centre-right , including Berlusconi 's PDL party , withdrew support . <p> Unemployment in Italy has risen to 10.7 percent , its highest level since monthly records began in 2004 , and unions are locked in disputes with companies over plant closures and layoffs . <p> Berlusconi , a 76-year-old billionaire media magnate , gave @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ keep supporting Monti or not would be made . An indication of the centre-right 's strength will come on Sunday when Sicilians go to the polls to elect a new regional government . <p> Always one to have an immaculate sense of the public 's pulse of discontent ( if not so much contentment ) , Berlusconi continued : <p> Berlusconi also condemned the Monti government for following what he called the " hegemonistic " economic policies of Germany and accused German Chancellor Angela Merkel and former French President Nicolas Sarkozy of " trying to assassinate my international political credibility " when he was prime minister . <p> Berlusconi was convicted on Friday of inflating prices paid for television rights via offshore companies and skimming off money to create illegal slush funds . <p> The court imposed a five-year ban on running for political office but since the sentence does not come into effect until all appeals are exhausted , Berlusconi can run for parliament in the next national elections in April . <p> In an interview earlier on Saturday he had suggested that he might not leave front-line politics @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not be a candidate for prime minister . He did not rule out running for parliament . <p> The former prime minister , who was convicted three times during the 1990s in the first degree before being cleared by higher courts , has the right to appeal the ruling two more times before the sentence becomes definitive . <p> He has often accused magistrates of waging a political war against him . " Ours is not a democracy but a dictatorship of the magistrature , " he said , listing the amount of time and money he has had to spend to defend himself in trials he says are all based on unfounded accusations . <p> He announced what sounded like a political platform to undo many of Monti 's reforms . And he warned that his People of Freedom party would be meeting in the coming days to decide whether to withdraw support from Monti 's government and force early elections . <p> He said it would do so to end the " recessive spiral " that Monti 's reforms had brought about . <p> The rambling speech got @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now-famous smirk about him shared by German Chancellor Angela Merkel and France 's then-President Nicolas Sarkozy , which he termed an " attempted assassination of my international credibility . " <p> Berlusconi had wavered about his political future in the year since he was forced from office amid sex scandals and his inability to reassure financial markets that he could push through the economic reforms needed to ward off a debt crisis . <p> At the end of the day , for better or worse , it seems that the Italian people may once again be allowed to chose their elected leaders , which regardless of the outcome , is what democracy is truly about , and we are confident that even with Berlusconi back on top , the local electorate would be happier than being controlled by a proxy muppet of the world 's most insidious investment banks-cum-hedge funds , whose only goal has always been a simple one : the enrich its shareholders , its partners , and the member of the global ruling oligarchy even more at the expense of the disappearing middle class . <p> Spanish @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ government 's latest austerity measures in Madrid on October 27 . Hundreds of police officer gathered in front of the interior ministry to express their anger against the austerity measures and benefit cuts . <p> domesticated peoples are mentally incapable of rising against an oppressive government . Your average consumerist wo n't fight , and will believe in a better possible outcome until he or she is face down in the dirt in some mass grave . <p> Only men &; women with something greater than themselves to fight for will stand up ; you know who you are , and you bide your time , waiting for when the theatrics are over with and it is time to correct the course of the world . <p> As they have conquered entire populations through psychological means , so they will be freed . <p> Monti was at a " Family Values " rally . Ring kissing , Bishop blowing club med political theater has to be pretty entertaining . No matter how far you go you get the same crap . We have a whole bunch of ladies in a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ elected representative soon because he promised . " I will rape all of you that need rapin ' cause I'ma doing god 's work " . <p> Interesting local elections tomorrow in Sicily . Let 's see if the Grillo 's " 5 star movement " will cash in . It has been polling as the second largest party in Italy for some time now . His agenda includes defaulting on the govt debt , exiting euro and some other cool stuff . <p> Glad you agree with me . All options to bring down the Brussels freakshow are fine with me . One way or another . It 's not sustainable , so let 's short the path to a new system . Berlu is the man to do that . With guys like Monti , Europe will be a debt serfs union for the next 20 years . <p> Du n no what a " typical " European is .. never met one .. that 's the root of the problem with the EU , we do n't want to be averaged and harmonginised by politicians into Euro-sheep @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , even in your family ? <p> I 'm not evading anything BTW , I 'm just being practical that I 'm rooting for Silvio in a choice between 2 parasites ... note the caveat above about parasites , i 'm not super keen on any , they can all go hang <p> regards the financial shitstorm the Eurozone is a debt-ridden basket case .. but note the Goldmanshite is cutting back Govt but not giving bwankers haircuts ... tough on people , pandering to bwankers , a Goldmanshite bias <p> bad these Eurozone debts , who bubbled a mega-derivative house of cards on top ? ... that 's why bubble Bens coming to the rescue , wether you Yanks like it or not <p> The new fiat line is out . Damn things look like Easter eggs on wheels , candy colors too . Sometimes the jokes are just way too obvious . What did they pay for Chrysler again ? Oh right , nothing . The taxpayers gave it to them . Thanks Barry . <p> Berlusconi is Trump , Madoff , and Charlie Sheen all smashed together @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ much less support , anything this thieving fuck has to say on anything ?

@@5140041 <p> FRANKFORT -- After a nasty redistricting fight during the 2012 legislative session , House Republicans pledged to take control of the state 's lower chamber this year for the first time in 91 years . <p> With an unpopular Democratic president at the top of the ticket and a shot at four open seats vacated by retiring Democrats , GOP leaders say they have a strategic advantage on Nov. 6 . <p> " What we are seeing is more and more districts that are not wedded to a Democratic incumbent , " said Steve Robertson , chairman of the Republican Party of Kentucky . " People 's minds are open because they are very frustrated with President Barack Obama and his failed policies . " <p> Republicans hold 41 seats in the House , compared to 58 for the Democrats . There is one open seat vacated by Democrat Fred Nesler , who retired earlier this year . <p> Although Republicans have controlled the state Senate since 2000 , the last time the GOP controlled the Kentucky House was in 1921 . Arkansas is the only other southern state with a Democratic-controlled lower chamber . <p> House Minority @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ready for a tough fight , but he stopped short of predicting that the GOP will win the 10 seats necessary to take control of the House . To do that , Republicans probably will need to win all four open seats that were held by Democrats , defend three open seats held by Republicans and defeat six incumbent Democrats . All Republican incumbents also must hold off challengers . <p> " We knew it was going to be tough , " Hoover said . " But we recruited a lot of good candidates . " <p> Kentucky Democrats say they 're taking the House Republicans ' threat seriously . For the past year , they have been raising money , recruiting challengers for Republican incumbents and coordinating efforts with the Kentucky Democratic Party and Gov . Steve Beshear , whose approval rating in a recent Courier-Journal Bluegrass Poll was 64 percent . <p> " Last November , Kentuckians reaffirmed that they want to see continued Democratic leadership in Frankfort , " said Matt Erwin , a spokesman for the Kentucky Democratic Party . " When the polls are closed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ majority in the House of Representatives . " <p> There probably will be more money spent this election cycle than previously seen in House races , partly because of independent groups such as the Kentucky Family Values Super PAC , which was created to run advertisements supporting Beshear 's 2011 re-election campaign . The group already has sponsored television advertisements in one Western Kentucky House race in Paducah . U.S. Sen. Mitch McConnell 's PAC , the Bluegrass Committee , also has given generously to House Republican candidates , more than $65,000 since June . <p> House Republicans and Democrats also have campaign committees that can be tapped to help candidates . The House Democratic Caucus had raised more than $534,000 and had $206,681 on hand at the end of June . House Republicans had raised $94,602 and had $76,034 on hand heading into July . Also , each state party can use money through its executive committee to pay for polls and campaign materials . <p> A key campaign strategy of Republicans this fall has been to use mailers and television ads to try to link House Democrats to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Mitt Romney in Kentucky . <p> " The air is being sucked out of the room by Barack Obama , " Robertson said . <p> House Democratic Caucus Chairman Robert Damron counters that state legislative races are viewed as local elections by voters , which blunts any talk of ties to Obama . People in Paducah and Pikeville do n't think their state representative knows the president , Damron said . <p> " These are local races , " Damron said . " The people in my district know me . They see me at the grocery store . They see me at church . " <p> Erwin said Republicans tried to tie some statewide candidates to Obama last year , but Democrats won all but one statewide office . <p> Their differences aside , Republican and Democratic leaders agree on one thing : There are more House races in play this election cycle than there have been in a very long time . <p> Four of the open seats once held by Democrats are in more conservative Western Kentucky . The other open seat held by a retiring Democrat @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Republican in national races . <p> In Central Kentucky , party leaders are watching several races , including two with first-term Republican incumbents and two where the Republican incumbent is retiring . <p> ? In the 73rd House District , which includes Clark County and a portion of Madison County , Mayfield faces a tough challenger in Democrat JoEllen Reed . Mayfield was first elected in 2010 , when she defeated Democratic incumbent Don Pasley . <p> ? In the 62nd House District , which includes Scott County and a small portion of Fayette County , Quarles faces Charlie Hoffman in a rematch of the 2010 race . Quarles defeated Hoffman , who had represented the district for 13 years , by less than 250 votes in 2010 . <p> ? In the 36th House District , which includes Garrard County and a portion of Madison County , Republicans hope political newcomer Jonathan Shell , a fourth generation farmer , can keep the district in Republican hands by holding off Democrat Bud Montgomery , the owner of a farm and garden center in Berea . Longtime Republican Rep. Lonnie Napier @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , which covers a portion of southern Fayette County , the GOP hopes to maintain the seat being vacated by Rep. Bill Farmer . Republican Robert Benvenuti , a lawyer and former inspector general at the Cabinet for Health and Family Services , faces Democrat Reggie Thomas , a lawyer . <p> If Republicans make significant gains on Nov. 6 but fall short of a majority , some expect the GOP to try to convince conservative Democrats to switch parties . <p> Hoover , however , said he 's just concentrating on Nov. 6 for now . <p> " I am not even thinking about that right now , " Hoover said . " I am trying to win ten seats . " <p> About the Author : John Stamper is the accountability editor for the Lexington Herald-Leader . A native of Monticello , Ky. , he has been with the Herald-Leader in a variety of roles since graduating from Western Kentucky University in 2000 . Reach him at **26;2895;TOOLONG <p> Republican Rep. Mike Harmon is going to face a strong challenge in the 54th District , where he is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ GOP is in shambles and thinks running a national race is going to net in-state results . It did n't work in the governor 's race last year , so I do n't see it working this year . <p> " When I got to " With an unpopular Democratic president at the top of the ticket " I knew the author had no credibility . " <p> Why , exactly ? It is a factual statement . Obama is very unpopular in Kentucky and will be lucky to get 40% of the vote here . He had a tough time even winning the closed Democrat primary against literally nobody ( " Uncommitted " ) running against him and lost a lot of counties to nobody . <p> When I got to " With an unpopular Democratic president at the top of the ticket " I knew the author had no credibility . <p> Who read that line to you ? Obviously you 're blind if you do n't realize how disliked Obama is in Kentucky . Even Yellow Dog Democrats are n't going to vote for him this time @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ vote in Kentucky if not more . <p> Why , exactly ? It is a factual statement . Obama is very unpopular in Kentucky and will be lucky to get 40% of the vote here . He had a tough time even winning the closed Democrat primary against literally nobody ( " Uncommitted " ) running against him and lost a lot of counties to nobody . <p> More disillusioned want-a-be 's who believe the government is going to take away their guns , limit their ability to skip church , and hoard their money . <p> Voting " Republican " is safe to most of the issue ignorant voters who are scared they will lose the guns they do n't have , skip the church they miss anyway , and hoard the money they do n't have ; but I guess they do dream about the American Dream as the rich have brain washed them to do ... Get Rich Quick ( as the after-hours commercials go ) ... <p> In the paragraph that begins " Democratic incumbents facing potentially tough challengers include " you omitted one very tough @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ challenge to looooong time incumbent Tom McKee . Way too long . He 's been in there so long that even the old-timers are saying " It 's time for Tom to go . " Thanks for

@@5140141 <h> Knot in the ribbon at the edge of the solar system " unties " <p> The IBEX science team compares the first and second maps to reveal whether there are time variations in the ribbon or the more distributed emissions around the ribbon . This animation fades between the first and second IBEX maps . We see that the first and second maps are relatively similar ; however , there are significant time variations as well . These time variations are forcing scientists to try to understand how the heliosphere can be changing so rapidly.Credit : IBEX Science Team/Goddard Space Flight Center - Click image to download movie <p> San Antonio -- Sept. 29 , 2010 -- The unusual " knot " in the bright , narrow ribbon of neutral atoms emanating in from the boundary between our solar system and interstellar space appears to have " untied , " according to a paper published online in the Journal of Geophysical Research . <p> Researchers believe the ribbon , first revealed in maps produced by NASA 's Interstellar Boundary Explorer ( IBEX ) spacecraft , forms in response to interactions between interstellar space and the heliosphere , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Sensitive neutral atom detectors aboard IBEX produce global maps of this region every six months . <p> Analyses of the first map , released last fall , suggest the ribbon is somehow ordered by the direction of the local interstellar magnetic field outside the heliosphere , influencing the structure of the heliosphere more than researchers had previously believed . The knot feature seen in the northern portion of the ribbon in the first map stood apart from the rest of the ribbon as the brightest feature at higher energies . <p> While the second map , released publicly with the just-published paper , shows the large-scale structure of the ribbon to be generally stable within the six-month period , changes are also apparent . The polar regions of the ribbon display lower emissions and the knot diminishes by as much as a third and appears to " untie " as it spreads out to both lower and higher latitudes . <p> One of the clear features visible in the IBEX maps is an apparent knot in the ribbon . Scientists were anxious to see how this structure would change @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the ribbon somehow spread out . It is as if the knot in the ribbon was literally untangled over only six months . This visualization shows a close-up of the ribbon ( green and red ) superimposed on the stars and constellations in the nighttime sky . The animation begins by looking toward the nose of the heliosphere and then pans up and left to reveal the knot . The twisted structure superimposed on the map is an artist 's conception of the tangled up ribbon . The animation then shows this structure untangling as we fade into the second map of the heliosphere . Credit : IBEX Science Team/Goddard Scientific Visualization Studio/ESA - click image to download movie <p> " What we 're seeing is the knot pull apart as it spreads across a region of the ribbon , " says Dr. David J. McComas , IBEX principal investigator and an assistant vice president at Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio . " To this day the science team ca n't agree on exactly what causes the knot or the ribbon , but by comparing different sky maps @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ over relatively short time periods . Now we have to figure out why . " <p> As the IBEX spacecraft gathers a wealth of new information about the dynamic interactions at the edge of the solar system -- the region of space that shields our solar system from the majority of galactic cosmic ray radiation -- the IBEX team continues to study numerous theories about the source of the ribbon and its unusual features . <p> IBEX is the latest in NASA 's series of low-cost , rapidly developed Small Explorers space missions . Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio leads and developed the mission with a team of national and international partners . NASA 's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt , Md. , manages the Explorers Program for NASA 's Science Mission Directorate in Washington . <p> Agreed . Once again its the greedy developed Western world , blasting all of its harmful radio waves into the heliosphere and causing the " knot " of the sacred solar system to " untie . " Using the precautionary principle we should form a U.N . Interplanetary Council and find @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Before it 's too late ! ! ! ! <p> Really neat , but why is everything always so " surprising " ? When you 're looking at new things ( and I do n't know of any Mayan records mentioning this ribbon ) , anything observed might be interesting or fascinating or exciting , but " surprising " implies expectations when there should be none . <p> It certainly looks as if there are large electical currents in space . It would be hard to argue that ribbons and sections of magnetic fields can move around like that without electric currents being involved . Are we allowed to talk about that possiblity by the keepers of the keys ? Given the sparseness of the physical environment it rather supports the idea of non-particle electrical flow ( plasmons , not electrons ) , meaning electric currents are waves in a medium , not particles travelling through emptiness . <p> There was a prolong discussion on the subject in the original post I suggested that ribbon is a consequence of interaction between solar wind and galactic magnetic field and will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ **35;6550;TOOLONG ... Dr. Svalgaard stated : the shape of the intersection of the HCS with the Heliopause changes wildly all the time due to solar rotation while the ribbon does not . Now we find that the ribbon shape does change ! <p> There was a prolong discussion on the subject in the original post I suggested that ribbon is a consequence of interaction between solar wind and galactic magnetic field and will change with change in the solar activity . http : **35;6587;TOOLONG ... Dr. Svalgaard stated : the shape of the intersection of the HCS with the <p> The hole in the Ozone production / maintenance at the South pole is due to the changes in the magnetic flux portion of the EUV and UV ariving from the sun . Due to following natural conservation of energy laws and that the magnetic reluctance resistance to free passage of EUV UV of O3 is three orders of magnitude less than O2 , O3 forms to lower the energy drain from the solar energy passing through the area . <p> When the levels of EUV and UV drop off the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ idea pushed " was thought that CFC 's were being utilized in the " increased destruction rate " of the O3 to develop the holes all by them selves . As it turns out the " natural variability " of the magnetic fields of the earth / sun solar wind interaction is still driving it as it was before we could see " it " . <p> What I think we are seeing in the production and modulation of this ribbon , where the Neutral sheet impinges upon the heliopause , and results in the concentration of neutral charged single atoms on the solar wind , as they arrive at the inner boundary of the heliopause , just past the shock front of the back pressure of the back log of particles , trying to spread out to defuse through the heliopause . <p> This play of the fluxing sheet of ionized neutral atoms creates turbulence that allows some of these atoms to reflect back toward the sun , like back splatter from a close hand gun woundStill thinking about those exploding nonbelievers in the 10:10 video. as the wrinkles @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ toward the sun . <p> It may be that these effects are produced much the same as the Ozone hole , but just due to the density of the compression of the thin sheet of atoms buckling back upon themselves , creating the shape and angle of the ribbon . Due to the inductive flux of the polarity and speed of passage and varying density of the particles suspended in/on the background galactic fields as they are compressed around , give the distorted shape to the heliopause in response to the shifting of the outside and inside pressures as the heliopause skin , shifts like bodies of jelly fish do in the surf . <p> Every star in the galaxy shields itself the same way with expanded bubbles of ionized stellar wind , like particles of oxalic acid coated iron grains suspended in oils in ferro fluids , allowing them to push on each other from light years away by mutual deflection so as to avoid direct collisions . <p> The coils / lumps in the ribbon might be these resultant magnetic flux concentrations between the sun and other close @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the interactions being felt across the whole system . <p> Thus affecting the balance by the shifting of the inductive drives between the sun and the heliopause shell , but because of the inertial damping of the planets , they shift via MHD dynamics , rotational speed , orbital momentum , and LOD drives between them to stabilize the solar system , giving rise to short term weather drivers and by long term extension climate variability . <p> I still think that by studying and understanding these long term interactions of ionized interstellar clouds and gasses , there magnetic conduction affects on the flowing and shape of galactic fields , and how they are responding to the stirring because of the local stars pushing through them , would give a better idea of when the next Ice age will be upon us . <p> I think Richard Holle is saying that the ' Ribbon " does not exist . Its an instrument artifact . Example , in the middle of the ocean , when the sun sets , it looks ten times larger and light is diffused everywhere . If @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ if there was a ribbon around the horizon , which of course there is not . <p> vukcevic says : October 1 , 2010 at 3:39 am Dr. Svalgaard stated : the shape of the intersection of the HCS with the Heliopause changes wildly all the time due to solar rotation while the ribbon does not . Now we find that the ribbon shape does change ! But not on the time scale of solar rotation . Keep the right perspective . <p> Crispin in Waterloo says : October 1 , 2010 at 3:31 am It certainly looks as if there are large electical currents in space . Large electric currents do flow in space . They are generated by the changing magnetic field . They do no work and carry no energy being at right angle to the magnetic field . <p> vukcevic says : October 1 , 2010 at 3:43 am I did not mean to " walk on " your post as we were both typing at the same time , but most of the fabric of my post comes from the threads I have read over @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . <p> Richard Holle says : October 1 , 2010 at 3:59 am As it turns out the " natural variability " of the magnetic fields of the earth / sun solar wind interaction is still driving it as it was before we could see " it " . No , the ozone layer is not generated by the variations of the interaction between the solar wind and the Earth 's magnetic fields . <p> Grey Lensman says : October 1 , 2010 at 4:09 am Reply ; I tried to say the effect is real , it appears where it does due to the interactions with/between the solar wind carried fields , and the interstellar galactic fields , much as the rings of Saturn are real , and not the same as a rainbow effect seen after rain , as you seem to be inferring . <p> Leif Svalgaard says : October 1 , 2010 at 4:14 am But not on the time scale of solar rotation . Keep the right perspective . <p> Of course you know you are wrong there . Solar wind speed varies greatly hourly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fractions of different speeds are so hopelessly mixed up so that any reference to the solar rotation is completely lost ; only angle that matters is the solar equatorial plane vs. the galactic plane . <p> Richard Holle says : October 1 , 2010 at 4:15 am You are welcome , my views are just a speculation . <p> You may be onto something , GreyMonk . There has been no serious human sacrifice to any sungod or other deity who could influence the climate for hundreds of years , and we 're supposed to be surprised that the gods are angry at us and causing " climate disruption ' ? <p> I guess high priest Al Gore is n't quite honest when he tells us the carbon credits we buy will ensure us the favour of the gods . <p> I made a point earlier , prior to Vukcevic , Leif , and Holle weighing in , because I did n't think we 'd been aware of or had been observing the ribbon for any significant amount of time . How long have we known about the ribbon and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> vukcevic says : October 1 , 2010 at 5:04 am After 10+ months all the fractions of different speeds are so hopelessly mixed up so that any reference to the solar rotation is completely lost ; only angle that matters is the solar equatorial plane vs. the galactic plane . Again , you display deep ignorance . The issue was the direction of the magnetic field , remember ? At a given point in the Heliosphere the Earth , Jupiter , Pluto , Ribbon solar rotation sweeps the Heliospheric Current Sheet by about every seven days on average . This means that the direction of the magnetic field at a given distance from the Sun changes 180 degrees every seven days , being East for a week , then West for a week , and so on . <p> Richard Holle says : October 1 , 2010 at 4:15 am You are welcome , my views are just a speculation . <p> Having once resided in Swaziland for many years I can affirm that human sacrifice to influence crop production ( arguably a climate related human sacrifice ) did @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to involve the murder of a child about 2 years old . <p> ' Ordinary ' human sacrifice for ' strength ' and ' luck ' known as ' muti murders ' are pretty common on the Easttern side of Southern Africa , notably in Swaziland , Mpumalanga ( Kangwane , Gazankhulu and Venda areas ) and KwaZulu-Natal . <p> Further rumuors emerging from the never-finishing trial of David Simelane , a noted procurer of victims , have it that Saudi Arabia is one destination for body parts retrieved from those sacrificed . Who knows what is going on there in terms of the climate ? Whatever it is , it is not working ... <p> Or if you just clip the term ; " NASA 's Interstellar Boundary Explorer ( IBEX ) spacecraft " and drop into Google search , it will be very rewarding and much deeper in fullness and richness by doing the research for your self , be skeptical ask questions , but know how to look things up for your self , it is much more rewarding that way . <p> Lets see , Work @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out ( motor ) except in space . An interesting hypothesis indeed . <p> Richard , I was referring to the very real effects perceived at sunset due to the purely relative thickening of the atmosphere , which as we know , to all intents and purposes has a uniform thickness around the earth . Thus my thought that this ribbon is purely an artifact of our perspective of the double layer boundary of the Solar System . <p> Grey Lensman says : October 1 , 2010 at 6:48 am Lets see , Work in-electricity out ( generator ) or electricity in -- work out ( motor ) except in space . An interesting hypothesis indeed . This is because in space the magnetic force is always perpendicular to the particle 's direction of motion , and , therefore , does no work on the particle . <p> An expanding WAVE slows its motion in certain places , critical points , crests , musical intervals , " gaps " , or " warps " . The time is due , we must stop groping in the dark , knowing that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ charges create waves , and all the rest , including US , of course ! : Have you ever heard of such a thing known as a RADIO ? . We already know , from thousand of years , how it works . Why the surprise then ? . If Pitagoras were here he would explain it with its Monochord or with the relations of his square triangle inscribed within a circle . Why such a fanatic rejection of simple truths ? . Is it perhaps we do not want to see any CANON out there , any feared symbol , which would imply an ETHOS ? <p> Richard Holle says : October 1 , 2010 at 4:32 am Reply toGrey Lensman " I tried to say the effect is real , it appears where it does due to the interactions with/between the solar wind carried fields , and the interstellar galactic fields ... " <p> I think your right , Richard , the effect is real . However , by only having one observation point to view this complex 3D boundary layer , it is difficult to see what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ knot ' is a sign that the bremsstrahlung is being excited by a stronger solar wind , then hitting a denser ( more ionised ? ) pocket of particles in the more neutral interstellar medium . The ' knot ' is probably an eddy of turbulence in the thin double layer of the bremsstrahlung , which fades as the sun travels out of this denser pocket of the interstellar medium and/or the speed/density of the solar wind declines . <p> It will be interesting to observe if another knot appears in a different position in the future and to monitor the link between solar wind speed at the edge of the heliosphere and ' knot ' formation or other features of turbulence . <p> Let 's put in GCR 's terms : when charged particles encounter a magnetic bubble , they will form a ribbon around the bubble following the bubble 's magnetic equator . Heliosphere 's magnetic equator is defined by composite of the solar wind remanents at the bow-shock boundary . As Sun 's activity oscillates , so the ribbon will reflect convolutions of the heliospheric field . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Earth http : **35;6624;TOOLONG ... It closely follows the geo-magnetic equator as you can see , on a totally unrelated subject http : **35;6661;TOOLONG ... images 3,4 &; 5 . <p> Tenuc says : October 1 , 2010 at 7:27 am The ' knot ' is probably an eddy of turbulence in the thin double layer of the bremsstrahlung , .... That " knot " is a " quanta " , " mass " , an " interval " , etc. , etc . Let us explain it as Pitagoras would do it , or should we ask , as he did , to bring up a prisoner from the jail , to explain it ? http : **33;6698;TOOLONG Everyone know this . It is now the time for those with infinitely more trained minds to redevelop these principles which come from the history of the human spirit . <p> So , this Ribbon was the largest ever on record , and its " untying " is to be at the most impressive rate on record too , right ? And , could we also say that for the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? Or , for the first time on record , the Ribbon is being " untied " at an unprecedented rate that could be due to Anthropogenic Global Climate Disruption ? <p> Grey Lensman says : October 1 , 2010 at 9:31 am Thanks to you . As you see all what is needed is an up to date " translation " to the language of our times , of what tradition and symbols always taught , that " weltanschauung " found , among others , in the hebrew khabbalah . This , of course , will be resisted , as it entails an " ethos " where negentropy is the way up to higher frequencies and where entropy follows the other way . To reclaim out of a vision of chaos that of an ever prevailing order . <p> Hmm , somehow it would n't surprise me if those peeps believes there 's absolutely nothing wrong with indirectly believing that a galaxy takes about 700 million years to form into a recognizable galaxy of todays standard , so to speak . <p> Hah the universe is a really interesting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ real interestingly funny ones . I mean who else to explain that a visible from earth 92 billion light year width of a universe fit into only a 13,7 billion year range , talk about creative schticking numbers to ones schtick . <p> The rapid change in the " knot " embedded in the ribbon is the result of a reconfiguration of the location , direction , and velocity of charged particles and their attendant magnetic and electric fields . <p> This rapid change , the " knot " being " untied " , contradicts an earlier hypothesis that the ribbon is simply a solar wind reflection . <p> Nothing suggests a reflection of the solar wind would act in this way , thus , the " surprise " expressed by the scientists -- surprise is caused when an event does not behave as expected or predicted . <p> What an unwinding of the knot strongly sugggests is a change in physical forces at the location of the knot controlled by the location , direction and velocity of charged particles in the heliosperic boundary . <p> " In conclusion , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ currents . There is no fundamental difference between the fields generated by permanent magnets and those generated by currents flowing around conventional electric circuits . In the former , case the currents which generate the fields circulate on the atomic scale , whereas , in the latter case , the currents circulate on a macroscopic scale ( i.e. , the scale of the circuit ) . " -- Richard Fitzpatrick , Professor of Physics , The University of Texas at Austin <p> What the heliosphere , the protective bubble in which the Earth and other planets reside and boundary between our solar system and interstellar space , is a boundary between two bodies of plasma with different physical characteristics each emanating its own magnetic field . <p> So , when two bodies of plasma each with a distinct magnetic field press against each other , the result is electric currents : <p> " A plasmoid is a coherent structure of plasma and magnetic fields . Plasmoids have been proposed to explain natural phenomena such as ball lightning , magnetic bubbles in the magnetosphere , and objects in cometary tails , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and in the heliospheric current sheet . Plasmoids produced in the laboratory include Field-Reversed Configurations , Spheromaks , and the dense plasma focus . " <p> The plasma is emitted not as an amorphous blob , but in the form of a torus . We shall take the liberty of calling this toroidal structure a plasmoid , a word which means plasma-magnetic entity . The word plasmoid will be employed as a generic term for all plasma-magnetic entities . " <p> " Bostick wrote : <p> Plasmoids appear to be plasma cylinders elongated in the direction of the magnetic field . Plasmoids possess a measurable magnetic moment , a measurable translational speed , a transverse electric field , and a measurable size . Plasmoids can interact with each other , seemingly by reflecting off one another . Their orbits can also be made to curve toward one another . Plasmoids can be made to spiral to a stop if projected into a gas at about 10 ? 3 mm Hg pressure . Plasmoids can also be made to smash each other into fragments . There is some scant evidence to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . " <p> James F. Evans says : October 1 , 2010 at 12:17 pm Yes , magnetic fields are inherently involved with this process because moving charged particles cause magnetic fields No , a current may cause a magnetic field . Just moving ' charged particles ' has no effect if the medium , like all plasmas is electrically neutral , i.e. consists of equal number of charges of opposite sign . <p> There is no fundamental difference between the fields generated by permanent magnets and those generated by currents flowing around conventional electric circuits . There is an deep and fundamental difference , as permanent magnets are due to quantum effects electron spin . There is no electrical current running around with an atom . <p> two bodies of plasma with different physical characteristics each emanating its own magnetic field . Bodies of plasma do not ' emanate ' magnetic fields . <p> " An electromotive force mathematical equation giving rise to electrical currents in conducting media is produced wherever a relative perpendicular motion of plasma and magnetic fields exists . " So , the magnetic field is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , double layers ( which may be curved rather than flat ) separate regions of plasma with quite different characteristics . " The converse does not hold . <p> In other words , magnetic fields are a function of moving charged particles . No , again , you have to separate opposite charges to get a current . The only way to do this in space is with a magnetic field . <p> I just read this piece about generating electricity from heat by using molecules sandwiched between two plates . The article seems to say that the potential is generated at the quantum level due to the wave-particle duality . If you consider the two bubbles , where the ribbon is being created , as plates there seems to be a possible correspondence . <p> " No , a current may cause a magnetic field . Just moving ' charged particles ' has no effect if the medium , like all plasmas is electrically neutral , i.e. consists of equal number of charges of opposite sign . " <p> Leif , You need to stop saying that . A @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ can be electrically " neutral " and still carry an electric current . All that is required for the neutral conductor to carry a current is for the positive and negative charges to move at different velocities as they do in the solar wind . The moving electric field will generate an orthogonal magnetic field . A moving magnetic field will generate a current in a conductor such as the solar wind , all as per Maxwell 's universally accepted equations . <p> And , Dr. Svalgaard responded : " No , a current may cause a magnetic field . Just moving ' charged particles ' has no effect if the medium , like all plasmas is electrically neutral , i.e. consists of equal number of charges of opposite sign . " <p> " The moving plasma " , Dr. Peratt is referring to is electrically neutral plasma , i.e. consists of equal number of charges of opposite sign . <p> And , Richard Fitzpatrick , Professor of Physics , The University of Texas at Austin , when he states : " all magnetic fields encountered in nature are generated @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in motion , flowing as a current , it does n't require the charges to be segregated ( although , the charges certainly can be segregated ) . <p> Making statements contradicted by scientists more qualified than you in the subject matter at hand only diminishes your credibility . <p> " There is no fundamental difference between the fields generated by permanent magnets and those generated by currents flowing around conventional electric circuits . " -- Richard Fitzpatrick , Professor of Physics , The University of Texas at Austin <p> Your disagreement is not with me , but with professor Fitzpatrick . Perhaps you need to e-mail your disagreement to him . <p> ( No , a current may cause a magnetic field . Just moving ' charged particles ' has no effect if the medium , like all plasmas is electrically neutral , i.e. consists of equal number of charges of opposite sign . ) <p> my replies , E and H fields , voltage ions , and magnetic flux exist as a completely reciprocal arrangement , both exist because the other does , density of ions and speed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ion flow the resistance to the flow produces measurable " voltage potentials " due to assuming the amount of movement that would be if the resistance were removed. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- " " There is no fundamental difference between the fields generated by permanent magnets and those generated by currents flowing around conventional electric circuits . " " <p> ( There is an deep and fundamental difference , as permanent magnets are due to quantum effects electron spin . There is no electrical current running around with an atom . ) Deflection from stated case of conventional electric circuits in conductors , then you infer due to using a different case the original was wrong , but in the case for ions each individual charged particle is the incremental charge , and if moving produces current equal to the total number of charged units moving . The sum value + or - depends on the balance of carriers , but the current still flows , the rates of change results in the frequency produced . If you average the current in an 60 cycles/sec @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ = to 0 ? -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- " two bodies of plasma with different physical characteristics each emanating its own magnetic field . " <p> ( Bodies of plasma do not ' emanate ' magnetic fields . ) <p> Attempt to deflect again by semantics , the error in context was James ' choice of the word " emanating " where in your counter point is he should have said " propagating along with " the particle movement , you took the term " emanating " as the normal understanding that means expanding from rather than what he meant as " expanding with " . Your negative sounding answer does not negate the conjecture James was trying to make that the magnetic and particle properties of the two plasmas had different compositions , and magnet alignments due to differences of the originating wave fronts. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- - " An electromotive force mathematical equation giving rise to electrical currents in conducting media is produced wherever a relative perpendicular motion of plasma and magnetic fields exists . " <p> ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ current . ) <p> Context you were discussing is the flow of the different plasmas at a boundary layer , created and maintained by the difference of two or more conflicting magnetic fields each associated with a plasma flow in what maybe a resultant turbulent mixing layer , given that there is not only multiple magnetic fields and multiple ion flows , the real point in question what is the resultant flow of current ? Stays separate , combines , and or in what proportion , due to what the real compositions are ? -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- " In general , double layers ( which may be curved rather than flat ) separate regions of plasma with quite different characteristics . " <p> ( The converse does not hold . ) <p> Are you saying that separate regions of plasma with quite different characteristics , will not form double layers ? What do you think happens then ? Mixing , mutual repulsion , or just the random active scattering of neutral ions , some of them back toward the sun , and that is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- -- -- -- -- " " In other words , magnetic fields are a function of moving charged particles . " " <p> ( No , again , you have to separate opposite charges to get a current . The only way to do this in space is with a magnetic field . ) <p> Each particle has it 's own field , as it passes a point in space the fields respond in kind , resulting in a very high frequency AC with a large volume of current carriers , James was not asking about current , yes magnetic fields are a functional product of moving charged particles by definition , you are still discussing the interactions between plasmas containing particles and magnetic fields of different origins , just because the solar wind is usually close to a balanced positive and negative ion content , does not let you assume that the galactic fields pushes an even balance of both charges . I would bet that the composition of the galactic wind is different , and that difference is the cause of the slightly precept able slow down @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that revolting vidoe sequence , it 's a pleasure to read of some interesting onbservations . I was going to say " science " but this is not science , but rapportage of observations . The science resides in the explication of the observations . <p> strangely enough , as a Spurs fan and student of electricity , I find Leif is correct . <p> Plasmas ARE neutral . They are composed of ionised particles ; for every postivie ion , there is a negative electron , and vice versa . The dynamics of plasmas have been studied theoretically and experimentally , without achieving full comprehension . Yes , the oppositely charged particals move in opposite directions . However , they are neutral as far as is concerned the volume of the plasma , from the exterior . <p> Now , what happens to a neutral plasma moving through a magnetic field is another matter . <p> Come on folks , its plain as day . The ribbon is the solar system 's equivalent of DNA or mDNA , and its unraveling now in preparation for meiosis or mitosis . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and caused the upcoming spawning millions of years earlier than should REALLY have occurred -- and we only have 4 years to change our ways and avoid utter destruction from this ! Bad SUV 's , bad people , BAD , BAD ! ! ! -VBG- <p> Robert of Ottawa wrote : " Mr. Evans , yes , but the plasmoid is only a fleeting thing ; it is not a stable structure . " <p> I suggest when there is a stable structure -- the heliosphere -- a plasmoid can be a stable object embedded within the boundary ( because the boundary is stable ) . Plasmoids have been observed &; measured in the Earth 's magnetotail and they persist in that location because the physical dynamics are stable with fairly consistent introduction of electromagnetic energy ( although , the plasmoids in the Earth 's magnetotail do explode periodically , initiating the electric current that flows into the Earth 's upper atmosphere , causing the aurora ) . <p> I will add , but is sure to be objected to , that plasmoids may possibly be a form of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ double layers can take many forms ( while maintaining the basic physical relationships ) , and plasma , as Langmuir noted , is self-organizing , with the charged particles assuming structures which insulate the opposite charges from each other ( electrons &; ions ) , so that opposed to popular conception , the charged particles do n't simply " short circuit " and cancel out , but rather assume structures which prevent a simple " short " . <p> Plasmoids and double layers behave similarly : If there is a steady &; constant flow of charged particles ( energy ) into the respective objects , they will persist . <p> But if the flow of charged particles is cut-off the structures will not persist , and on the other extreme , if the charge particles ( energy ) exceeds a certain enery level , the objects can " explode " and in the case of a plasmoid can emit electrons out of one axis and ions out the other axis , again , much like a double layer accelerating electrons out one exhaust " jet " and ions accelerated out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> The movement of plasmas on their own will not generate magnetic fields as Leif says . When talking about plasma movement you need to think about cathodes and anodes . On the universal scale there are many cathodes and anodes ranging from galactic size to planetary size . For example our Milky Way could be an anode while Andromeda is a cathode while our sun could be a cathode and Alpha Centauri an anode . With this in mind there are large plasma flows with intersecting smaller plasma flows , plus it has been shown that moving plasma " knots " , all these complex interactions will create magnetic fields or magnetic activity . Double layer boundaries are one of the results of the movements of plasma . <p> Or if you just clip the term ; " NASA 's Interstellar Boundary Explorer ( IBEX ) spacecraft " <p> Thanks for the prod . While reading the post at 4:30 am local time , I missed the link to the paper that Leif provided . It clarified quite a few points being made in the comments . I was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ( it does n't , of course ) . <p> So then I stumbled about on the IBEX site and found the answer to my question , which is ; twice . The ribbon has apparently been observed twice . And I found that they should n't have been surprised because ( from the IBEX site re the mission ) : <p> " Although the scientists knew the real data would not look exactly as their models predicted , this ribbon feature was a huge surprise to the scientists and was not predicted by any existing models . The ribbon appears to be produced by the alignment of magnetic fields outside our heliosphere . These observations suggest that the interstellar environment has far more influence on structuring the heliosphere than anyone previously believed . " <p> It seems to me that when you do n't know " what 's in the box , " you should n't be surprised by what you find . I thought their find was really nifty , myself . <p> In the rest frame of a plasma there is no electric field and hence no @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wind into a stationary magnetic field e.g. the Earth 's an electric field and currents result . So , currents are the result of moving the conductor the plasma with respect to the magnetic field . The magnetic field thus serves as a means to convert kinetic energy into electric energy , as in any old bicycle dynamo . The fundamental error committed by the Electric Universe cult is not to realize this simple principle . <p> Tim L says : October 1 , 2010 at 11:31 pm LEIF ? ? ? currents are the result of moving the conductor the plasma ? ? ? ? ? http : **35;6733;TOOLONG ... You can show that there are NO electrons in plasma ? ? ? ? ? ? ? There are the same number of electrons with negative charge per cubic meter as there are ions with positive charge , so no NET charge . <p> h/t to Dr. Leif Svalgaard , who offers us a look at the paper here Thanks from me too , Leif . Thank -- You ! pg.12 " .. However , some statistically significant differences @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ short ( 6 month ) timeframe . In particular , ( 3 ) the overall ENA emissions observed by IBEX above ? 2 keV appear to be slightly lower in the second set of sky maps compared to the first , both within the ribbon and outside of it ; ( 4 ) both the north and south poles have significantly lower ( ? 10 -- 15% ) ENA emissions in the second set of sky maps compared to the first across the energy range from 0.5 to 6 keV ; ( 5 ) the " knot " in the northern portion of the ribbon in the first maps is less intense and appears to have spread and/or somewhat dissipated by the time the second set of maps was acquired ; and ( 6 ) the detailed fluxes in the southern ( horizontal ) portion of the ribbon have evolved and there may be a slight ( one pixel , ? 6 ) equatorward motion of its center .. " Leif , what do you think lower ENA levels this go round , are due to ? Wondering if during @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now during solar min we have just witnessed the " unraveling " of the last helisopheric knot ? ( sometimes I do scare myself ) Geesh the whole heliosphere all tied up in knots . lol Seriously , I was expecting some signs of motion or drift . It 's there but not yet definitive . vukcevic says : October 1 , 2010 at 7:43 am Let 's put in GCR 's terms : when charged particles encounter a magnetic bubble , they will form a ribbon around the bubble following the bubble 's magnetic equator . Heliosphere 's magnetic equator is defined by composite of the solar wind remanents at the bow-shock boundary . As Sun 's activity oscillates , so the ribbon will reflect convolutions of the heliospheric field . There is an analogous double ribbon in the ionosphere surrounding the Earth http : **35;6770;TOOLONG ... It closely follows the geo-magnetic equator as you can see , on a totally unrelated subject http : **35;6807;TOOLONG ... images 3,4 &; 5 . <p> Vuks , thanks for the links , your graphs and presentation . Food for thought . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ minute details too much . Hey , much bigger picture , right ? <p> Also wondering if the " knot " was a leftover piece of a magic magnetic carpet , that took a ride out to the edge .. Leif , where you riding that out to edge to try and see out ? hmm leftover magnetic carpet remnants ? <p> Understanding of solar wind structure might be wrong Los Alamos scientist suggests new approach to measuring flow from the sun LOS ALAMOS , New Mexico , September 9 , 2010 -- A scientist examining the solar wind suggests that our understanding of its structure may need significant reassessment . The plasma particles flowing from the Sun and blasting past the Earth might be configured more as a network of tubes than a river-like stream , according to Joseph Borovsky of Los Alamos National Laboratory 's Space In a paper in this week 's Physical Review Letters , " Contribution of Strong Discontinuities to the Power Spectrum of the Solar Wind , " ( Physical Review Letters 105 , 111102 2010 ) , Borovsky challenges the concept that the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , our entire interpretation of spacecraft data may not be correct . " For decades we have been interpreting the spectrum of fluctuations in the solar wind as a measurement of turbulence in the wind . However , it turns out that impurities ( discontinuities ) in plasma dominate the signal . Hence , the spectrum is not a clean measurement of turbulence , and it may not even be a measurement of turbulence , " Borovsky said . In simpler terms , perhaps , we could n't see the forest for the trees . <p> " Because we might be misunderstanding the solar wind , we might be misunderstanding its impact on the Earth 's environment . Understanding solar wind allows us to understand the initiation and evolution of geomagnetic storms , " said Herbert Funsten , chief scientist for the International , Space &; Response Division at Los Alamos . <p> " .. Borovosky argues that the discontinuities are part of a structure to the solar wind that looks like spaghetti , with the discontinuities being the boundaries between adjacent noodles ( magnetic tubes ) . In this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ homogeneous . He suggests that the spaghetti structure of the solar-wind plasma reflects the " magnetic carpet " on the surface of the Sun , with the spaghetti in the wind being loose strands of the magnetic carpet . " We have also argued that the spectrum measured in the wind is a ' remnant ' of the carpet on the Sun rather than a signature of turbulence in the wind plasma , " he says .. " http : **35;6844;TOOLONG .... ewsrelease.html <p> One last thing .. The TWINS satellites ( not named Castor and Pollux ) were supposed to be imaging earth 's magnetosphere much the same way that IBEX is imaging the Heliopheric boundary . Working together .. Any word on this ? Meet the TWINS : The TWINS Mission " Two Wide-angle Imaging Neutral-atom Spectrometers ( TWINS ) is a NASA Explorer Mission-of-Opportunity to stereoscopically image the Earth 's magnetosphere for the first time . TWINS extends our understanding of magnetospheric structure and processes by providing simultaneous Energetic Neutral Atom ( ENA ) imaging from two widely separated locations . TWINS observes ENAs from 1-100 keV @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) resolution . The TWINS Lyman-alpha monitor measures the geocoronal hydrogen density to aid in ENA analysis while environmental sensors provide contemporaneous measurements of the local charged particle environments . By imaging ENAs with identical instruments from two widely spaced , high-altitude , high-inclination spacecraft , TWINS enables three-dimensional visualization of the large-scale structures and dynamics within the magnetosphere for the first time . . " http : **35;6881;TOOLONG ... <p> " Regardless of scale , the motion of charged particles produces a self-magnetic field that can act on other collections of particles or plasmas , internally or externally . Plasmas in relative motion are coupled via currents that they drive through each other . Currents are therefore expected in a universe of inhomogeneous astrophysical plasmas of all sizes . " <p> The above would be expected . The electrons and ions in a plasma are constantly in motion . That motion will create localized electrical currents which in turn creates small magnetic fields . These magnetic fields then move and direct the plasma which sets up larger electric currents and so on and so forth . It would be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ' . <p> A spiral feature at the Heliopause ? .... That 's not surprising at all ..... It is merely dark matter interacting with dark energy and causing a funky yellow spiral ..... Quite simple really when one applies the most advanced Cosmological theories ..... ; - ) <p> " It would be impossible for a plasma cloud to be ' electrically neutral ' . " <p> You were doing great until you made the above statement . The solar wind is electrically neutral , yet it carries an electric current , because its positive and negative charges are moving relative to each other . <p> pochas says : October 2 , 2010 at 12:01 pm The solar wind is electrically neutral , yet it carries an electric current , because its positive and negative charges are moving relative to each other . No they generally do n't , because the attract each other so strongly . What would separate them ? <p> I want to thank all the physicists and other scientists who pick up on a fascinating bit of science like this report and in debating enlighten @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in a low whisper ... ! . <p> I do n't understand why an enjoyable discussion has to be interrupted by jibes about Al Gore and cracks about CO2 from folks who do n't seem to appreciate something like this . Come on , guys ! Let it go ! Every once in a while it is just delightful to contemplate some of the wonders in the universe for what they are , without obsessing constantly about AGW ... : ) <p> Dr. Svalgaard wrote : " In the rest frame of a plasma there is no electric field and hence no electric current . " <p> False . <p> There is no such thing as a " rest frame " for plasma . <p> Break down plasma to it 's constutuents : Electrons &; ions . <p> Electromagnetism is scale independent : What holds true for one particle holds true for the many and vise versa . <p> A free electron has a negative charge , no matter what frame -- in fact , " frame " is irrelevant . If an electron is free it has a charge @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ An ion has a positive charge , no matter what frame . An ion has an electric force . <p> Any statement that attempts to introduce the concept of " rest frame " in relation to plasma is nothing but meaningless verbal gymnastics . It is not even misleading -- it is nonsensical . <p> And as multiple sources linked in this discussion have shown : Moving charged particles cause a magnetic field . One charged particle , whether a free electron or an ion , if in motion will cause a magnetic field . Yes , a very small magnetic field , but existent , nevertheless . <p> And , again , this is because electromagnetism is scale independent . What is true for the one is true for the many . <p> There is a hypothesis that suggests a charged particle 's electric force ( every charged particle has an electric force ) when in motion causes a " disturbance " or " tension " in an ether field -- this disturbance is what Science calls a magnetic field . <p> And as a prologue every charged particle @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " or " tension " in this ether field expressed as electric force . <p> The two types of disturbances or tensions in this ether field are transaxial to each other . <p> That is why electric fields and magnetic fields are always perpendicular to each other . <p> One force , the electric force is not dependent on motion , the other force , the magnetic force is dependent on motion . <p> A magnetic field flows around a charged particle in motion following the " right hand rule " ( placing your right hand in a " thumbs up gesture " -- the charged particle or a current of charged particles flowing up &; out of your thumb will cause a magnetic field which " flows " the same direction as your fingers wrapped counter-clockwise ) . <p> This magnetic field will not change the direction of the charged particle in motion , BUT a seperate and distinct magnetic field can deflect the charged particle . <p> However , only the electric force , and if in an organized array , an electric field , can cause charged @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ October 2 , 2010 at 11:59 pm There is no such thing as a " rest frame " for plasma . The rest frame is just an observer moving with the plasma . E.g. an observer moving away from the Sun with the same speed as the solar wind is in the rest frame of the solar wind plasma . <p> One charged particle , whether a free electron or an ion , if in motion will cause a magnetic field . Yes , a very small magnetic field , but existent , nevertheless . Since the magnetic field from the electron and the ion are in opposite directions there will be no net magnetic field . <p> " although it magnetic reconnection hardly resembles the original theory at all " <p> That is correct : The original theory first proposed in 1946 to explain coronal mass ejection ( CME ) , at the time all observations &; measurements were Earth surface based ( pre-space age ) and all that could be observed were magnetic fields . <p> Yes , today , " magnetic reconnection " has attempted to incorporate @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , velocity &; location of charged particle acceleration ) , but because " magnetic reconnection " supporters are still fixated on magnetic fields , they ca n't quantify and understand there own process . <p> It 's a failed concept and needs to be replaced with the Electric Double Layer , an electromagnetic process , which has been fully quantified for decades . <p> " No they generally do n't , because the attract each other so strongly . What would separate them ? " <p> What causes the charges in a plasma to remain separated , thus making the plasma conductive ? I 'm surprised you would ask , since you are the authority . Perhaps I am in error and the solar wind is not really a plasma ? <p> Grey Lensman says : October 3 , 2010 at 3:16 am Magnetic fields can not " reconnect " They do it all the time . Reconnection simply means change their topology . You can do that simply by twirling a toy magnet . <p> Silly silly me , I forgot the link It better be forgotten because it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 3 , 2010 at 7:34 am It 's a failed concept and needs to be replaced with the Electric Double Layer Recent in situ observations say otherwise : http : **35;6918;TOOLONG ... You do n't get any marks for peddling the EU anti-science . No space physicists today confuse the state of EDL with the process of reconnection . <p> pochas says : October 3 , 2010 at 7:51 am What causes the charges in a plasma to remain separated , thus making the plasma conductive ? Conductivity has nothing to do with separation . Conductivity just means that charges can move under an impressed electric field creating a current . The solar wind has nearly infinite conductivity . This is what prohibits lasting electric fields , because any such will immediately lead to the opposite charges finding each other they attract each other strongly and short out the separation . <p> Grey Lensman says : October 3 , 2010 at 10:38 am Electrifying debate , I hope that it does not fall into a blackhole . Dumb debate as shown by the basic ignorance about simple physics being displayed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ' statement : " There is no such thing as a " rest frame " for plasma . " <p> And , Dr. Svalgaard responed : " The rest frame is just an observer moving with the plasma . E.g. an observer moving away from the Sun with the same speed as the solar wind is in the rest frame of the solar wind plasma . " <p> Only a few considerations demonstrates how silly the above statment is . <p> Experiment : Multiple observers measuring a specific portion of the plasma streaming radially from the Sun , temporally &; spatially , at the same point -- the same electrons &; ions . <p> Consider : One observer is located and moving as Dr. Svalgaard has stated in the above hypothetical response . Another observer is located on the Earth , another at L1 ( a position between the Sun and the Earth that provides stability for the observing platform , in situ satellite ) , and in multiple coordinated satellites such as THEMIS which move through and by the body of plasma collecting data in situ . <p> Even @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ proposed platforms , we know , by prior in situ satellite probes ( i.e. , THEMIS ) , that the electric force and electric fields of the charged particles in the " event " body of plasma moving out from the Sun can and already has been observed &measured.; Coronal mass ejections ( CME 's ) have been observed &; measured in this way by THEMIS and all the above parameters have been detected and measured . <p> The other three observers would measure those parameters detectable from each platform 's location , respectively . <p> As well as Dr. Svalgaard 's hypothetical observation platform . <p> There are not two realities -- there is only one reality -- a set of existitent physical conditions , at any given time &; place . <p> If one observer of any of the four obseservers in the experiment observes &; measures electric fields and electric currents , within the body of plasma , then that is the reality . Such as the THEMIS experiments already conducted . <p> It 's silly to claim as Dr. Svalgaard does in his hypothetical in situ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ temporally &; spatially identical THEMIS observations ) would exist where there 's no electric force effects on the observer , no electric field effects on the observer , and no electric current effects on the observer . <p> Why ? <p> Because the free electrons &; ions constituing the subject of the experiment are experiencing the same set of physical forces and kinetics no matter where the observing platform is situation . <p> There is one reality for any time &; place . <p> The idea of a " rest frame of a plasma " allowing different physical parameters ( depending on the location of the observer ) in a specific body of plasma is an imaginary construct which has no basis in experimental reality as demonstrated by the THEMIS in situ satellite probe and other multi-platform arrayed satellite probes . <p> James F. Evans says : October 3 , 2010 at 11:32 am If one observer of any of the four obseservers in the experiment observes &; measures electric fields and electric currents , within the body of plasma , then that is the reality . Such as the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as Dr. Svalgaard does in his hypothetical in situ satellite probe , that a different reality ( from the temporally &; spatially identical THEMIS observations ) would exist where there 's no electric force effects on the observer , no electric field effects on the observer , and no electric current effects on the observer . This is how Nature works , see e.g. http : **34;6955;TOOLONG ... Electromagnetism " The theory of Special Relativity allows one to transform the magnetic field into a static electric field for an observer moving at the same speed as the charge in the diagram . The amount of current is particular to a reference frame ( who is measuring the current or charge velocity ) . " <p> That is one of several paradoxes which confront supporters of Relativity . <p> This violates the basic causation principle of Science , since with multiple realities , as Special Relativity &; General Relativity postulate , then there are multiple causations for those multiple realities . <p> ( Under that set of a priori assumptions , Science is useless , since nothing is knowable or falsifiable @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the proposed experiment : The THEMIS multiple satellite array in situ probe passes through the same body of plasma collecting data at the same time the Svalgaard hypothetical satellite is " moving away from the Sun with the same speed as the solar wind " and is also collecting data , two observers collecting data on the same event from two seperate " frames " of reference . <p> There is only one reality , one set of physical conditions , at the location and time where the two satellite probes intersect even though the THEMIS satellite has a different " reference frame " due to its different vector direction and speed . <p> Also , the Svalgaard in situ probe , if it is within an electric field as it moves " way from the Sun with the same speed as the solar wind " will observe an electric field if equipped with the necessary Langmuir probe . <p> The magnetic field does not cause the electric force . <p> Someone might say : " How do you know that ? " <p> Because the electric force is present @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or stationary . An electric force exists without the presence of a magnetic field , where charged particles are stationary . To indulge Dr. Svalgaard 's imaginary hypothetical , for the sake of argument , charged particles have electric force even in the " rest frame of reference " . Stationary charged particles are in the " rest frame " . <p> However , it ' also true that magnetic fields interact with the electric force of charged particles to organize those charged particles into a structure which causes electric fields and electric currents . <p> Again , " rest frame " is a red herring which only serves to obscure and obfiscate . <p> James F. Evans says : October 3 , 2010 at 3:44 pm The best evidence that Relativity is a failed thought experiment . Relativity postulates there are multiple realities . Now relativity is also ' failed ' . I think you are digging a deeper and deeper hole . But , the dependence on the reference frame actually follows from Maxwell 's equations . So , you must also postulate that they have failed . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ led Einstein to Special Relativity . This insistence that modern physics has ' failed ' is the characteristics of a cult of anti-science . I suggest you refrain from any more of this as such is degrading WUWT . <p> I believe that all the observed cosmological phenonema can be simulated in a plasma lab albeit at several magnitudes less then what is displayed in the heavens . In my mind that gives the ' electric ' universe crowd an edge over the ' electric neutral ' universe crowd . Astro physicists who insist on a " gravitational " universe have to revert to playing mathematical gymnastics to come up with an answer and still ca n't get it right . <p> The ' electric neutral ' believers are suffering from the same sort of thinking as " CO2 Alarmists " . It becomes a belief system when empirical evidence points somewhere else . <p> I have done a few searches the last few days and there are many sites pushing the electric universe and even some government educational sites which I find amazing . My son is doing a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ side . Of course that does n't make it ' correct ' but if as I said at the beginning , stars , galaxies etc can be replicated in a lab then surely they must be on the right track . <p> James F. Evans says : ( October 3 , 2010 at 3:44 pm ) " The best evidence that Relativity is a failed thought experiment . Relativity postulates there are multiple realities . " <p> I am going in way over my head here but what the hell . We all know the famous thought experiment of two people on a moving train that toss a ball between themselves . What is the reality of the speed of the ball ? Let 's say one person tosses the ball to the other at 5 ft/sec . So the speed of the ball between them is 5 ft/per . But wait , if the train is moving at 10 ft/sec in the direction of the ball toss then to a person standing in a field as the train goes by sees the ball 's speed as 15 ft/sec . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ speed ? But wait , if there was an astronaut in space free from Earth 's rotation he would see the speed of the ball as 15 ft/sec plus or minus the speed of the Earth 's rotation ( depending on the direction of the train of course ) . Have we got the true speed of the ball yet ? Nope . If a being was positioned outside the orbit of the Earth he would see the speed of the ball as 15 ft/per plus or minus the Earth 's rotational speed plus or minus the Earth 's orbital speed . Have we got the true speed of the ball yet ? Nope . One still has to factor in the speed of the solar system through the Galaxy , the Galaxy 's speed through the Universe and any speed of expansion or contraction of the Universe . How can an object display so many different realities at the same time ? Relativity of course . But whose reality matters the most ? The one catching the ball . <p> Dr. Svalgaard has been committed to the gravity " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the end , everything is due to gravity . " <p> That should provide some insight into his objectivity and his agenda . <p> At this point , Dr. Svalgaard is engaged in a rearguard action . But a wealth of scientific observations &; measurements are constantly frustrating his efforts . <p> In regards to Dr. Svalgaard 's response : Notice he avoids responding to the specifics of the hypothetical experiment -- he ca n't . Neither does he challenge that there is only one reality or set of physical conditions for a given time &; place . ( Snickers would fill the auditorium if Dr. Svalgaard gave a lecture and directly stated there were multiple physical realities for a given time &; place . ) <p> Notice Dr. Svalgaard lashes out because I dared challenged the astronomical " philosopher 's stone " , Relativity . Why the angry response and even an implied call for banishment from this website ? ( " degrading WUWT " ) -- Apparently , anybody who openly challenges Dr. Svalgaard 's Sacred Cow and last ditch at obfiscation is liable to receive his wrath @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tactic to distract from the factual merits of the argument presented . <p> Do n't have an answer to the factual merits of the argument , attack the messenger . ( Have n't we see that tactic used by the AGW scientists ? ) <p> As I stated in my last comment " rest frame " is a red herring . Even for subscribers to Relatvity . <p> Why ? <p> Because you do n't have to have a hypothetical Svalgaard satellite probe , " moving away from the Sun with the same speed as the solar wind " , to observe &; measure the " rest frame " of a plasma . A stationary observer of a stationary body of plasma has the same " rest frame " as the Svalgaard satlellite probe , " moving away from the Sun with the same speed as the solar wind " . <p> And , stationary observers of a stationary body of plasma have already observed &; measured the electric force of the charged particles , and electric fields , and electric currents . <p> In other words , Dr. Svalgaard @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- there is no need to give any further serious consideration to his imaginary argument . <p> You present the best argument for Relativity . I have no objection to your line of reasoning as far as it goes . Although , your argument is more about perception and cumulative " frames of reference " . <p> But does that rational apply to the solar wind as Dr. Svalgaard claims : Such that there is no electric fields or electric currents for the hypothetical Svalgaard observer , even though , at the same time &; place THEMIS would be able to detect electric fields and electric currents . <p> No . <p> Just as the ball is moving through the air in your example , the electrons &; ions have an electric force and location , and electric currents , and , yes , magnetic fields . <p> Your line of reasoning is partly about perception ( perception is not necessarily the same as reality ) and cumulative motion -- at the local level of perception on the train , the ball is still going 5ft. per sec . <p> @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ compare your exercise to Dr. Svalgaard 's hypothetical observer exercise , instead of adding speed by bouncing out " frames of reference " as you do , Dr. Svalgaard is doing the opposite and freezing the ball in mid-flight ( no electric field , no electric currents ) . <p> Is that what really happens -- is the ball ever frozen in place in the air ? <p> Is the electric force ever frozen and not in effect ? <p> As long as the electrons &; ions are arrayed in the required structure , is the resulting electric field " frozen " and not in effect ? <p> Because that is exactly what one must subscribe to , if one buys Dr. Svalgaard 's hypothetical . <p> The electric force of the electrons &; ions is never " fozen " in mid-air , Dr. Svalgaard 's hypothetical is false . <p> But while we 're here , why does Dr. Svalgaard even bring up his hypothetical ? <p> James F. Evans says : October 4 , 2010 at 9:08 am But while we 're here , why does Dr. Svalgaard @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know that every working scientists agree with this . The reference frames etc and even magnetic reconnection are not in doubt , but generally accepted mainstream physics . These are not ' my hypotheses ' . I wish they were , but unfortunately all this has been known for decades or even a century+ . <p> James F. Evans says : October 4 , 2010 at 1:00 pm Dr. Svalgaard , I agree " frames of reference " as Tom in Florida presents them have been known for over a century . But your specific hypothetical is not analogous to Tom 's example . It does n't have to be . It follows from Maxwell 's equations that to talk about an electric field without specifying which reference frame is meaningless . People moving with respect to each other will measure a different electric field . In particular , if you are moving with the solar wind , the electric field is zero . <p> " In particular , if you are moving with the solar wind , the electric field is zero . " <p> Ca n't be . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . If you 're traveling with the protons , the electrons create the field . If your frame is the electrons , the protons make the field . Only if the wind were to be composed of neutral atoms would there be no electric field , and then the wind would not interact with magnetic fields . <p> If THEMIS , moving in a different vector ( direction ) and speed , detects electric fields &; electric currents as its flight path intersects , at the same time &; location , the flight path of the Svalgaard hypothetical satellite observer , " moving away from the Sun with the same speed as the solar wind " , are those real electric fields &; currents ? <p> And , if so , would the Svalgaard hypothetical satellite observer , at the same time &; location as THEMIS made its observations , detect no electric fields &; electric currents ? <p> And , assuming for the sake of argument , that the Svalgaard hypothetical satellite did not detect electric fields &; electric currents , as you assert , which set of observations @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ &; electric currents , and one set from the Svalgaard hypothetical not detecting electric fields &; electric currents , would be the true reflection of the physical conditions at that time &; location within the body of plasma moving away from the Sun ? <p> ( I say , " sake of argument " , because as explained in a prior comment the hypothetical Svalgaard satellite probe , " moving away from the Sun with the same speed as the solar wind " , to observe &; measure the " rest frame " of a plasma has the same " rest frame " as a stationary observer of a stationary body of plasma , i.e. , in plasma labortory experiments -- where obviously electric fields &; electric currents have been detected . <p> The " rest frame " is simply the frame of reference where the observer and " event " maintain equal physical relationships ( stationary or moving ) with each other over the course of the observation and measurement : The satellite travelling with the body of plasma or the scientist standing in front of his chamber of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the respective set of free electrons &; ions . ) <p> Please , Dr. Svalgaard , do n't get distracted by the comments in parenthesis , answer the three direct questions previously put forward . <p> The THEMIS arrayed multiple satellite probe collects raw data as it intercepts the body of plasma it 's set to observe &; measure , then the scientists analyse &; interpret the collected raw data . <p> The analysis &; interpretation converts the raw data into a spatial &; temporal three dimentional map of the body of plasma , specifically , the location , direction , and velocity of the charged particles . Plus the rate of acceleration of the charged particles and , the location , direction , and velocity of those accelerated charged particles . And , the magnetic fields , electric fields , and electric currents ( free electrons &; ions ) associated with the movements of those charged particles . <p> The spatial &; temporal three dimentional map , thus created , of the physical dynamics of that body of plasma is the map of the " rest frame " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a scientist in his plasma laboratory creates a three dimentional map of the physical interactions of a plasma body , the scientist is creating a map of the plasma in the " rest frame " . <p> It should be noted that the free electrons &; ions in a body of plasma can move at the same speed without " shorting out " and becoming neutral atoms as long as the required critical ionization velocity of the free electrons &; ions is exceeded by those free electrons &; ions . <p> Wikipedia entry for critical ionization velocity : <p> " Critical ionization velocity ( CIV , also called Critical velocity , CV ) is the relative velocity between a neutral gas and plasma ( an ionized gas ) , at which the neutral gas will start to ionize . If more energy is supplied , the velocity of the atoms or molecules will not exceed the critical ionization velocity until the gas becomes almost fully ionized . " <p> " The phenomenon critical ionization velocity was predicted by Swedish engineer and plasma scientist , Hannes Alfvn , in connection with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 1942 ) . At the time , no known mechanism was available to explain the phenomenon , but the theory was subsequently demonstrated in the laboratory . " <p> pochas says : October 4 , 2010 at 10:16 pm Ca n't be . The electrons and protons are moving at vastly different speeds . No , their bulk speeds away from the Sun are the same . <p> James F. Evans says : October 5 , 2010 at 8:01 am If THEMIS , moving in a different vector ( direction ) and speed , detects electric fields &; electric currents as its flight path intersects , at the same time &; location , the flight path of the Svalgaard hypothetical satellite observer , " moving away from the Sun with the same speed as the solar wind " , are those real electric fields &; currents ? They will measure a very different electric field , of course . Both are equally real . <p> The Critical Velocity has nothing to do with the solar wind , as the latter is already completely ionized at the Sun . <p> In @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Hannes explains " " The motion of a charged particle can be completely describe as caused by an electic field E1 . If we make a relativistic transformation from the coordinate system which moves with the particle velocity v in relation to a coordinate system at rest , we in the latter coordinate another electric field E2 ? <p> James F. Evans says : October 6 , 2010 at 10:46 am Please , could you explain , in your opinion , what Alfven meant by the passage you kindly presented . As I have said so many times , he is saying as every physicist will that it is meaningless to speak about an ' absolute ' , ' real ' electric field , as the electric field depends on the reference frame of the observer . Two observers moving relative to each other will measure different electric fields . You can think of a case where the two observers at a given instant pass very close to each other , so they at that instant are at the same location . <p> Now , this is not worth spilling @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and matches all measurements and experiments which is why it is accepted . <p> James F. Evans says : October 6 , 2010 at 10:46 am In your opinion what is the difference between the two electric fields ? To be specific : in the solar wind the electric field is zero . Seen from the almost stationary Earth of satellite orbiting the Earth , the electric field of the 400 km/s solar wind with a magnetic field of 5 nT , the electric field would be 400,000*5/109 = 0.002 Volt/meter . <p> First your state there is " no electric field " in the " rest frame " the Svalgaard hypothetical observer , " moving away from the Sun with the same speed as the solar wind " : <p> Leif Svalgaard says , October 1 , 2010 at 10:43 pm : " In the rest frame of a plasma there is no electric field and hence no electric current . " <p> That 's a far cry from this exchange : <p> James F. Evans says : October 5 , 2010 at 8:01 am " If THEMIS , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , detects electric fields &; electric currents as its flight path intersects , at the same time &; location , the flight path of the Svalgaard hypothetical satellite observer , " moving away from the Sun with the same speed as the solar wind " , are those real electric fields &; currents ? " <p> And , Dr. Svalgaard answered , October 5 , 2010 at 10:41 pm : " They will measure a very different electric field , of course . Both are equally real . " <p> Then : <p> Dr. Svalgaard wrote : " Two observers moving relative to each other will measure different electric fields . " <p> So , which is it ? <p> " In the rest frame of a plasma there is no electric field and hence no electric current . " <p> Or is it : <p> " They will measure a very different electric field , of course . Both are equally real . " And : " Two observers moving relative to each other will measure different electric fields . " <p> Did it become untenable to claim , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ no electric field and hence no electric current . " , when confronted with contradictory facts &; evidence ? <p> Dr. Svalgaard , " ... that is accepted by every physicist and matches all measurements and experiments . " <p> Then it would be easy enough to provide a link or citation to at least one measurement or experiment supporting your assertion . Considering your contradictory statements , above , on the matter , your assurance is n't persuasive . <p> James F. Evans says : October 6 , 2010 at 12:44 pm " Two observers moving relative to each other will measure different electric fields . " This is true at all times and for all physical objects . Plasma or not . For plasmas in particular , the electric field they will measure if moving with the plasma is 0 volt/meter . <p> Then it would be easy enough to provide a link or citation to at least one measurement or experiment supporting your assertion . Since it follows from Maxwell 's equations and special relativity which is really derived from Maxwell 's equations , any measurement that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of any that does not - within the non-quantum domain will do . <p> Here you can learn more about the electric fields in different reference frames : http : **35;6991;TOOLONG ... And how the frame concept is important for the reconnection process : " The paradigm for magnetic reconnection is the merger of two parcels of magneto ? uid with anti-parallel ? ux see Fig. 1 . In the rest frame of either parcel , there is no electric ? eld and no velocity ; simply magneto ? uid at rest . The velocities of the parcels stagnate to zero at a neutral sheet which de ? nes a new frame of reference . In the rest frame of the neutral sheet , the parcels are moving in towards the layer . The role of the electric ? eld is non-dissipative i.e. , purely convective outside the layer . When the parcels stagnate , the electric ? eld becomes dissipative inside the layer and E =nJ . This directed electric ? eld is capable of heating plasma and accelerating charged particles to high energies . " <p> " The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ caused by an electic field E1 . If we make a relativistic transformation from the coordinate system which moves with the particle velocity v in relation to a coordinate system at rest , we in the latter coordinate another electric field E2 ? <p> First , Dr. Svalgaard , omits a sentence in the middle of the paragraph : " A magnetic field exerts a neglible force on a particle at rest " . <p> And omits the word , " However , " at the start of the next sentence and wrongly capitalized the " i " in " if " , leaving the impression there were n't words left out , let alone a whole sentence . <p> " The motion of a charged particle can be completely describe as caused by an electic field E ' . A magnetic field exerts a neglible force on a particle at rest . However , if we make a relativistic transformation <p> E= E ' -- v x B <p> from the coordinate system which moves with the particle velocity v in relation to a coordinate system at rest , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ <p> And , the next sentence ( which Dr. Svalgaard left off ) : <p> " It is convient to use a coordinated system at rest and describe the motion of the particle by the velocity v. In this coordinate system the force acting on the charged particle is <p> f = e ( E+v x B ) <p> where B is given Equation ( 1 ) . " <p> Equation ( 1 ) can be viewed by linking the book and scrolling to page 11 . <p> Beyound the troubling omission of an entire sentence from the middle of the quoted statement ( without indication of said omission ) , and omission of the mathematical equation , and the incorrect notation , and leaving out the next sentence from Alfven 's statement and the " force " mathematical equation , is the overall misleading impression Dr. Svalgaard made by his serial omissions . <p> Hannes Alfven , first states that a charged particle 's motion can be determined by an electric field . And , contrary to Dr. Svalgaard 's repeated statements , magnetic fields have " neglible force @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just as assuredly , Alfven knew that magnetic fields must be part of the total " force " equation , so , his series of mathematical equations and relativistic transformation is a mathematical progression to include the magnetic force in a final mathematical equation to represent the total forces . <p> There are not " two " electric fields at the same time &; location . <p> It is mathematical pedigogical device . <p> Alfven is n't claiming that there are actually two seperate electric fields in the same time and location , but rather , there is an electric field causing particle motion which can be represented by an equation without reference to magnetic fields , but the magnetic field must be incorporated into the total " force equation " <p> f = e ( E+v x B ) <p> B is magnetic field <p> to have an a complete mathematical equation representing the total forces on the charged particle . <p> All in all , it appears Dr. Svalgaard was misleading in a number of different respects . <p> James F. Evans says : October 6 , 2010 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not understand anyway . The important point is still : <p> " The motion of a charged particle can be completely describe as caused by an electic field E ' . ... from the coordinate system which moves with the particle velocity v in relation to a coordinate system at rest , we have in the latter coordinate system another electric field E. " <p> No , Dr. Svalgaard , Alfven is doing a " reduction of terms " so he can reduce all the mathematical terms for the seperate forces into a single mathematical equation which expresses the total force involved . <p> Alven is not saying there are multiple realities for the same time &; location ( which is your erroneous conclusion ) . <p> Dr. Svalgaard , you do know how to progress through a " reduction in terms " mathematical exercise , do n't you ? <p> But that does n't excuse omitting a whole sentence in the middle of the passage , does it ? <p> " A magnetic field exerts a neglible force on a particle at rest " . <p> It 's poor @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of a quote ... especially without letting the readers know you are doing that . <p> Leaving out mathematical equations which are an integral part of Alfven 's line of reasoning is also poor form . <p> James F. Evans says : October 6 , 2010 at 8:23 pm It 's poor form to leave out an entire sentence from the middle of a quote ... especially without letting the readers know you are doing that . So much for my attempt of making things easy for you to understand ... Anyway , what Alfven was saying and what everybody else , including me , understands is that the electric field you measure depends on the speed with which you are moving . Just like the length of an object or the duration of a process . <p> Leif Svalgaard says : October 6 , 2010 at 8:58 pm Anyway , what Alfven was saying and what everybody else , including me , understands is that the electric field you measure depends on the speed with which you are moving . <p> Even Wikipidia has it correct : **34;7028;TOOLONG " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ magnetic field into a static electric field for an observer moving at the same speed as the charge in the diagram . The amount of current is particular to a reference frame ( who is measuring the current or charge velocity ) . " <p> In some ways you weaken your case by denying this basic fact of Nature . <p> Even supporters of General Relativity do n't claim it operates at the atomic level . <p> And it also conflicts with Quantum Mechanics , as well . <p> With all due respect , it is you who ignore well established Laws of Nature such as the repeatedly demonstrated physical law that the " motion of charged particles cause a magnetic field " . <p> Regarding Hannes Alfven 's book Cosmic Plasma , it is important to read the entire part you kindly linked , which upon reading makes clear your misrepresentation . <p> Dr. Svalgaard wrote : " Anyway , what Alfven was saying and what everybody else , including me , understands is that the electric field you measure depends on the speed with which you are moving @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ another misrepresentation of Alfven 's work in the section you linked to . Read the enire linked section , it perfectly clear Alfven never makes reference to anything remotely like " the electric field you measure depends on the speed with which you are moving . " <p> Alfven 's reference to " relativistic transformation " is not to General Relativity or even its concepts , but rather , Alfven is referring to the transformation from the magnetic field perspective ( and mathematical formalism ) to the electric current perspective , and the mathematical equations that take those electric currents explicitly into account . <p> First , what 's clear from reading the entire section is that Alfven is making a conversion from the mathematical formalism of magnetic field equations which in large part omits the particle motion considerations . <p> Magnetic mathematical formalism refers to electric currents as " curl " B , which Alfven notes is acceptable for some uses , but not for other uses where it is not applicable and has limitations for accurately measuring electric fields &; electric currents . Alfven then proceeds to " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " electric current is taken account explicitly " ( Alfven ) , in other words , charged particle motion is taken into explicit account . Alfven does this so that electric currents can explicitly mappped out on a three-dimentional coordinate system . <p> Your representations of Alfven 's work are seriously flawed . It 's one thing to disagree with another scientist 's work , it 's an entirely different matter to misrepresent that work . <p> In regards to the so-called " magnetic reconnection " paper you presented , I understand your reluctance to present the paper because it 's a prime example of psuedoscience : <p> " FIG. 1 . Magnetic reconnection paradigm . Merging parcels of magnetofluid have no electric field in their respective rest frames . By special relativity , in any other frame in particular , that of the neutral sheet ! the relation E 1v3B50 holds . At the neutral sheet , the velocities stagnate to zero so the role of the electric field becomes dissipative . " <p> The above passage is the money quote from the paper . But the assertion there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mathematical formalism , E + VxB = 0 , derived from magnetohydrodynamics ( MHD ) , not empirical laboratory experiments with plasmas . <p> Hannes Alfven and many other scientists have repeatedly demonstrated that the formalism of MHD is an approximation that does not hold up in tenuous bodies of space plasms . <p> Of note , the approach adopted by Yamada and Ono and reported in the 1999 Brown paper you linked has been ignored by more recent " magnetic reconnection " papers which do specifically observe &; measure electric fields ( these papers actually map out the Electric Double Layer under the erroneous " magnetic reconnection " label ) when in situ satellite probes collected the data . <p> Your purpose is clear . Such as it is , and it has little or nothing to do with advancing scientific knowledge . <p> James F. Evans says : October 8 , 2010 at 8:44 am Your purpose is clear . Such as it is , and it has little or nothing to do with advancing scientific knowledge . I give up on you . Just like I have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ years old . You will not learn . You can not learn . Your loss . <p> But your naked contempt for anybody who disagrees with you is evident . <p> " However , another translation which is equally important is the translation between a magnetic field description and a current description of plasma phenomena . " -- Hannes Alfven , Cosmic Plasma . <p> You not only disagree with Alfven , but his associates , and the scientific body of knowledge demonstrated in plasma laboratories around the world and , now , in situ satellite probes collecting data out in space . <p> James F. Evans says : October 8 , 2010 at 11:25 am Yes , anybody who firmly disagrees with Dr. Svalgaard is to be equated to " people who claim the Earth is 6000 years old . " Indeed , on the issue of elementary plasma physics and the EU , it is so . And these people are as steadfast in their faith as you and the EU cult . Not much can be done about this . <p> James F. Evans says : October @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ disagree with Hannes Alfven , 1970 Nobel prize winner in physics . You do not understand Alfven 's

@@5140241 <h> Only the best for the House Science Committee <p> We talked yesterday about Rep. Paul Broun ( R-Ga. ) , who believes that cosmology , biology , and geology are , quite literally , " lies straight from the pit of Hell . " The kicker , of course , is that Broun is a member of the House Science Committee . As several commenters reminded me , he 's joined on the panel by Rep. Todd Akin ( R-Mo. ) , who has his own unique insights on biology . <p> But this led Jillian Rayfield to ask a good question : who else is on the House Science Committee ? <p> Let 's start with the chairman himself , Ralph Hall of Texas . Though he was once a Democrat , Hall was behind a 2010 effort by Republicans to cut off billions in funding for scientific research and math and science education . He did this by rather cannily tacking onto a bill a provision that would have forced Democrats to vote in favor of letting federal employees view pornography while on the job . Hall also once said of climate change : " I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't have any science to prove that . But we have a lot of science that tells us they 're not basing it on real scientific facts . " <p> It 's quite a panel . Rep. Randy Neugebauer ( R-Texas ) , who drafted a resolution for Americans to " join together in prayer to humbly seek fair weather conditions " after a series of destructive tornados and droughts , is also on the House Science Committee , as is Rep. Dana Rohrabacher ( R-Calif. ) , who suggested " dinosaur flatulence " may have caused climate change 55 million years ago . <p> They 're joined by Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner ( R-Wis. ) , who has characterized climate science as an " international conspiracy , " as well as Rep. Sandy Adams ( R-Fla. ) , who supports having public-school science teachers offer lessons on " theories that contradict the theory of evolution . " <p> Remember , the House Republican leadership makes committee assignments , and felt these lawmakers are the best qualified members to serve on the committee related to science . <h> Discuss this post @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a dollar a day wages and 16 hour work days . They might resent being used and abused . They might even use their education to form a better society free from religion and corporate greed . Heck fire they might even vote these idiots out of office ! <p> " Heck fire " , I will definitely try to vote them out of my state ... and they are the ones who keep saying we are behind other countries in education of our young people ! Did n't the people who helped elect these idiots even look into what they believe and want to force on the populace ? An informed society is better now than they were in the 40 's , 50 's and even the 60 's . Lets get the lawyers , religious zealots and corporate whores out of office and put some engineers , teachers , mathmaticians and science laureates in . Maybe we will make more progress that way . <p> I have said this over and over again . We need to elect people that represent us and people like this do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . <p> If it were up to them our kids would be the next labor force for the low wage jobs to compete with China and India <p> Time to elect " REAL " science minded people into power . <p> I wanted to run as an independent in Illinois until I found out that it is nearly impossible to get an independents name on the ballot and it cost $10000 to get in with the democratic party of Illinois for the senate or house . <p> The big problem is , people that are good in science do not want to be in politics because politics is BS and not a science as they call it political science . There is no science in politics . We have a bunch of people in politics that have failed in the real world and probably could not add , subtract , multiply or divide without one of their aids helping them . Once in a while we get a science minded politician in power , but they are usually drowned out by illogical , religious or idiotic thinking , ie ; @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the lawyers , religious zealots and corporate whores out of office and put some engineers , teachers , mathematicians and science laureates in . Maybe we will make more progress that way . " ........ YES .... YES .... YES , finally I see people thinking right ! ! ! ! ! ! <p> Then you people out there giving money should look for these kinds of people to support , because scientists like myself simply do not have the $$$$ to do it without help . We also need more people talking this way for it to change . <p> Come on Rachel , keep up the momentum on this and maybe people like myself would decide to take a break from our research for 1 or 2 terms to do what we can . But only 1 or 2 terms and I still would want to have my home lab where I can run my experiments as I do now away from my " day " job . <p> I 'm convinced that Republicans can not exist without a " war on .... " ( your label there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ LIFE itself and quite literally see the " boogieman " everywhere . These people need to be removed from office period as they are not doing themselves or the American people anything except damage ! They do n't want to learn and they feel no one else should either , so what is the difference between the Taliban and the GOTP , absolutely nothing ! ! <p> Vote in November because our education , nation and our very lives depend on whether or not these ignoramuses are in office and how much power they will wield once in office ! <p> Yea looks like a big sell out to just line Republicans pockets with greed and for the rich . This is about as disgusting as it gets . And people do n't trust our government , because of all this Republican corrupt trash . You watch down South now , you 'll have Companies telling people to vote Republican in threat of their jobs . They pull that too all the time in suttle ways . <p> stop asking why . The answer is simple . An uneducated populace @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I have to say I am dubious as to whether these senators actually believe what they are saying and are not simply pandering to an ill educated base and presenting themselves as authority figures who know the " truth " and empathize with all the victimized Christians who are just trying to get their particular brand of hate acknowledged ( sorry for that run on sentence ) . <p> Republicans play on fear . They always have and always will . Ignorance works for them . <p> At the end of the day , and I wo n't make the sweeping generalization , but it is pretty apparent that MOST Republican politicians are in the pockets of big business . Create a populace that is ignorant , scared , and willing to work at ANY job to keep food on their table because there is no safety net , and you have a herd of sheep for the corporations to cull from . <p> This election is so much more important than people realize . You have to get out there and you have to vote . Mitt Romney and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . As much as anyone wants to accuse me of hyperbole , or being a conspiracy theorist , please , inform yourself . Look at the patterns and then tell me I 'm wrong . <p> While I agree with most of the posting about the sad nonsense believed by members of the House Science Committee , the bit about dinosaur flatulence is n't that far fetched . Methane is a powerful greenhouse gas , and ruminants produce a lot of it -- I believe the increase in world beef production is considered to be a contributing factor in global warming . So when you have a planet covered by ruminant dinosaurs , well , it might just get warmer . <p> The problem is dinosaurs were long gone 55 mya . The event they might be referring to is the Eocene thermal maximum . It may have been caused by a catastrophic methane release ( indicated by isotopically light carbon in the sediment record ) , but it certainly was n't coming from dinosaurs . <p> I had the great joy of going down to the Nixon Library a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I was definitely able to be sure the flowers on his grave had adequate moisture . When I consider what I went through under his six years of misrule , it was the least I could do . <p> And BTW - Nixon is far more responsible , as the architect of the " Southern Stragegy " for the current state of the GOP than is Reagan , who merely took advantage of the boulder rolling downhill . But it was pried from its position atop the hill and given the starting push by Tricky Dick , whose imps of satan are still around to torment us ( Rove , etc . ) . <p> ? ? ? IT is easier to find a score of men wise enough to discover the truth than to find one intrepid enough , in the face of opposition , to stand up for it .. a.a. hodge , 1823-1866 , president of princeton seminary . <p> With all these lies the right are discrbing , all of use have to be inteprid souls how stand up to them . <p> If the GOP @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ property status , then they could get rid of all them damned sex laws . With attacks on science and education already in play , this would remove the trifecta of inconvenient truths . <p> Sadly enough , these guys are n't new in history . Go Google " Hypatia " and " Library of Alexandria . " Clement of Alexandria , who whipped up the mob to burn the library and destroy its " pagan knowledge " , thereby starting The Dark Ages , was elevated to become Pope Clement I as a result . <p> First time I heard of the Colbert Study it was mentioned how a professor polled his university class and discovered those self describing as ' conservative ' did n't get the joke of Colbert . <p> Education does n't mean there is an ability to think and reason instilled on the student . <p> I 'm afraid what I heard years ago has become more true today : Universities have become high priced Tech Schools where people go to learn a job and nothing else ( I believe it was the Dean of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ observation over the years . I am a Professional Student ( 300 hours more or less ) , my tuition is paid for by wife working at the local U. Students want to learn only what they HAVE TO learn and nothing else . It 's a lost opportunity . <p> Thats why , if I hit the Big $Jing$ , I would create a scholarship for out of core studies . As an example , there would be a list of classes an engineering student could take out of core that I would pay for including books and supplies , and also pay tuition for matching hours in core . 4 hours of Psych 101 paid for in total and get 4 hours of tuition in engineering , maybe even pick up the tab for the engineering texts . <p> Because for education to be the enemy of ignorance the education must be more than a tech school . <p> At Purdue , where I went to engineering school , we were required to take at least two consecutive Humanities courses ( meaning two that built on each other @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ history course ) and the same with social sciences . I would not be as happy with my education as I am were it not for these requirements . I am a better human being for having the broader knowledge base . <p> It 's outrageous that these people were even elected to office let alone assigned to lead in committees . There should be an effort to recall/impeach these people from office ! ! I 'm tired of hearing or reading comments about how we are screwed and have to live with it . If we continue to let these people govern then we are just as much to fault for their statements/actions in office . <p> Do n't ask me , I 'm a woman and I would , in NO WAY , vote for Mitt Romney and his VP lyin ' Ryan ! I totally do not understand why ANY woman would vote for ANY member of the GOP ! If there is a way to stop it , no one is going to take away my rights , my daughters or my granddaughters rights either ! @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for us . <p> Do you actually believe they have ? Go to 538 blog at NYT where Nate Silver explains poles and how Romney got a bounce based on his debate but already the bounce is fading . Obama still has a 70% chance of winning and that will increase after the next debates . Be at peace , Obama will win but the task is to get rid of the crazy Senators and House members who really control what happens <p> I get more frightened by the day of these people . Eventually ... wont it get to a point where their constituents rise up and say " ENOUGH ! ! ! ! You base your governing on the bible , and because of that , you are fired . " <p> This way of viewing the world is the reason I 've said for a long time : these are the most dangerous people on earth . Their thought 's are destroying our way of life . Whether it be the food we eat , dirty water that exists everywhere , wars that are created out of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the face and you walk to the end of the block and punch the other person you did n't like anyway ) ; it 's never ending with these people . Truly , they hate everything that is " promotive of freedom , creativity , imagination , progress of humanity ( unless they can figure a way out of stealing all the money ) , and the most important of all- they have no empathy and love in their heart . It has all been blinded by deceit , greed , anger , fear , and hate ... STAND up and BEAT the HATE with truth . It 's

@@5140341 <p> Daily life in a crazy household with four triplets and two crazy parents . <h> Sunday , November 25 , 2012 <h> Remember Me This Way ! <p> About 20 minutes after I published my post on Thursday , I began feeling bad . My head started pounding , then I got the chills , and then my body started aching . Within a couple hours , I was literally burning up and writhing in pain . I was so sick , I did n't get off my brother-in-law 's couch for the next 32 hours . <p> My sister-in-law ferments her own probiotics and enzymes using the Body Ecology recipes and starters . I had drank a small amount of fermented juice about 2 hours before I got sick , so at first , I thought I was having a herxheimer reaction . If you 've never herxed before , consider yourself lucky . <p> My SIL has been doing the Body Ecology probiotics for a year and she also got sick when she first started it . There are several probiotics that I have extreme reactions to every time I try to drink them . I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Good Belly yogurt . I get a herx reaction every time . <p> So that 's what I thought was happening . Except now I think I just have the good old-fashioned flu , which would make sense since I was at the school from 7am on Tuesday , until 4pm , cooking , handing out food , cleaning up after people , and being around about 500 students , their grandparents , and their dates for the Manners Dinner . <p> Having Grandparents Day and the Manners Dinner on the same day is INSANE . And what 's more insane is that there are only about six of us mothers who actively run all the events at school and five of them have fifth graders and are leaving . Which means next year , I AM THE ONLY PARENT LEFT . And I 'll be sending out memos saying , " I need help right NOW . Get thee to the school . " <p> It 's all worth it , though , because so many schools have cut out all extracurricular events because they are n't in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at their desks and bubbling in circles on tests . The only thing they might remember is standing on stage and singing for their grandmother . I can share this with you because my phone and camera suck and everyone is blurry . <p> I seriously cried every single time I heard the kids practice this song at home . Bless their hearts . Thank goodness I have this blog so I can always remember them this way . <p> So at some point , when handing out food .... <p> Or cleaning up and resetting for the next event ..... <p> Or serving my loved ones ..... <p> Or bagging up the 10 turkey carcasses we carved for the Manners Dinner and throwing them to my chickens , I picked up the flu . <p> Austin 's teacher came across me trying to drag the turkey carcasses to the car . One of the men double bagged them for me in a big black garbage bag . It looked like I was dragging a body to the car . <p> She helped me and asked me what on earth @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . <p> " Ohmygod , Michele , do n't ever tell people what you do because you are so disgusting . " , she told me . <p> " You have no idea how disgusting I am . " , I told her . <p> When I was dragging the bag of turkey carcasses across Bob 's backyard , his stupid , stupid , stupid dog attacked me , then the bag broke open in his tennis court and dripped all over my jeans and boots . <h> DISCLAIMER : <h> About Me <p> I am the mother to 8 year old triplets and a 7 year old singleton . With only a 16 month age difference , this makes them Irish Quads . ( I am KIDDING , sort of . ) I am a follower of the Wingin ' It Parenting Philosophy ( WIP ) . It 's main principle is creating the illusion of having it all together while looking good . I 'm raising 4 happy , secure , somewhat attached children , hopefully with minimum psychological damage from my parenting choices . Our 7 year @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ brain tumor in June 2007 . He had brain surgery in July 2007 and after many very scary months ,

@@5140441 <h> Transcript <p> Hi ! I 'm Dr. Holly Austgen with Southeast Family Dental and today we are going to talk about children that are missing their adult teeth . As children start losing their teeth , many parents worry about how and when the adult teeth will come in . But what if they have n't come in or you have been told they wo n't ? Now what ? <p> There are many reasons why children will not get their adult teeth . First , it 's possible that the child lost their baby tooth too early and the adult tooth is not ready to come in . It could also be that the adult tooth does not have enough room to come in between the teeth that are already there , or for that , or one other reason , the adult tooth simply did not form . <p> Looking for a Super Dentist ? <p> Our team at Southeast Family Dental would love the opportunity to build a personal relationship with you and provide you with lasting dental work that looks and feels great . <p> Treating this problem in children will vary based on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ instance , the adult tooth is just not ready to come in , the dentist may want to place an appliance that will hold the space until the tooth starts coming through the gums . This treatment prevents the issue of not having enough room for the adult tooth to come in . When the adult tooth does not have room to come in , it becomes more involved and an orthodontist will need to be consulted to move the other teeth in order to make room and in some cases an appliance to pull the tooth through the gums . <p> And lastly , when an adult tooth has failed to form , there are a few ways to address this . Often , if it 's one or two teeth , a patient can maintain the baby tooth for as long as possible . Very often , if well taken care of , someone can keep their baby tooth long into adulthood and sometimes for life . However , if the baby tooth is lost or needs to be removed , other options can also be discussed . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or two , this becomes an issue with function and maintenance of the teeth that are there . First , though , if a child is missing multiple adult teeth , a consult with the child 's pediatrician is recommended to rule out conditions that may affect the entire body . <p> A child missing their adult teeth can have a broad range of very straight-forward treatments to other conditions that require more involvement with your dentist . It is important that a child be seen on a regular basis to keep an eye on their adult teeth and how they 're coming in . <p> If you have any questions , please give us a call at 317-359-8000 . This is Dr. Austgen with Southeast Family Dental

@@5140541 <h> How to Deal with a Medical Bill Mistake <p> August 28 , 2012 <p> Navigating the ever-confusing medical system is enough to leave you frustrated and exhausted these days . One of the biggest pains is getting an improper medical charge fixed . A recent study by the American Medical Association found that one in 10 bills paid by private health insurance have mistakes . That 's means you need to be extra diligent when you receive a doctor 's bill or Explanation of Benefits from your health insurance company . The Today Show took a look at how to handle a bad charge on a medical bill on its LifeInc.com website . <p> A few key tips : <p> 1 . Understand your insurance coverage . Knowing your deductibles and co-pays -- things you should check before you receive treatment ( if possible ) -- will help you spot when something might be amiss , according to the Healthcare Billing &; Management Association . <p> 2 . Keep track of what services you have received and what you 've paid and keep the records . <p> 3 . When you receive an " Explanation of Benefits " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or toss it in the trash . Be sure to read it , and if something is not being paid for , find out why . Otherwise , you could be financially responsible . <p> 4 . Do n't just pay a bill if you think something should be covered by your insurance . Some medical offices send out statements that look like bills , before receiving an insurance payment

@@5140641 <h> Recent Galleries <p> Many politicos love to scoff at the ? Great State of Ada , ? a left-leaning hotbed that just doesn ? t see the world as the rest of Idaho does . <p> It ? s a durable zinger , but a misleading one . Once again , on Tuesday , the residents of the two ? Great States of Ada ? dutifully cast their votes . <p> In the aggregate , Ada County again skewed to the left of the rest of Idaho . Some evidence from the 2012 election : <p> ? Mitt Romney received 53.5 percent of the presidential vote in Ada County , compared to 64.5 percent statewide . <p> ? Propositions 1 , 2 and 3 , the rejected K-12 overhaul pushed by state schools superintendent Tom Luna and Gov . Butch Otter , fared slightly worse in Ada , with the no vote running at least 2.2 percent higher on all three laws . <p> Those totals tell only part of the story . Dig deeper , and you see sharp differences between Boise and the rest of the state ? and even between Boise and the rest of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , encompassing much of Boise , Democrat Nicole LeFavour carried Ada County , at 52.4 percent . Elsewhere in this Eastern Idaho district , she pulled 27.9 percent of the vote , losing to GOP incumbent Mike Simpson . LeFavour is well-known in Ada County , having served Boise ? s North End in the Legislature for eight years . Even factoring home-field advantage into the equation , the gap between her numbers is startling . <p> ? Republican incumbent Raul Labrador got 64.8 percent of the vote in Ada County ? s share of the 1st Congressional District , which includes Meridian , Eagle and Kuna . Like LeFavour , Labrador has Ada County roots ; he represented the Eagle area in the Legislature . He fared better in Ada County on Tuesday , but not by too much ; elsewhere in the 1st District , Labrador rang up 62.3 percent of the vote en route to an easy re-election . In this race , Ada County voters were pretty much in line with the rest of a district running from the Owyhee Canyonlands to the Canadian border . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ South Boise voters ousted two Republicans , Sen. Mitch Toryanski and Julie Ellsworth , replacing them , respectively , with former House member Branden Durst and Janie Ward-Engelking . Consider this : Democrats hold only 20 seats in a 105-member Legislature . Twelve of those Democrats come from Boise and Garden City ? s Districts 16 , 17 , 18 and 19 . <p> ? Elsewhere in Ada County , Republicans swept the legislative races . The GOP held West Boise ? s District 15 , although the margins suggest this is a competitive district . West Ada County remained reliably Republican , with GOP candidates rolling up landslide margins more or less in line with Canyon or Kootenai counties . <p> None of this is new . It ? s merely reinforced by another election . But here ? s where it complicates public policy matters . <p> When the Legislature reconvenes in January ? for the first session after redistricting ? Ada County will have added numerical clout . Twenty-seven lawmakers will come from Ada County , up from 24 . Another 12 lawmakers will come from Canyon @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , this should give Ada County and the Treasure Valley increased power ? but only if Republican and Democratic lawmakers can work together . And on Tuesday , 17 of Ada County ? s 27 lawmakers won with better than a 60 percent majority , or ran unopposed . That doesn ? t exactly give winners a built-in incentive to collaborate . <p> These election results don ? t render bipartisanship impossible ? only difficult . Such is life in the Great States of Ada . <p> THE STATUS QUO <p> Of all of Tuesday ? s election oddities , this may top the list . <p> In 2013 , Republicans will control 28 of 35 seats in the state Senate , and 57 of 70 seats in the House . <p> Precisely the same as 2012 . <p> The GOP offset its losses in District 18 by picking up a Senate seat in Bannock County and a House seat in the Magic Valley . <p> Consider everything that has unfolded since the 2010 elections . The GOP held a historic closed primary . Legislative districts were redrawn . Two @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ s education overhaul and the ultrasound bill . In spite of all these variables , the legislative balance of power didn ? t shift at all . Strange . <p> Again , the goal of endorsements is not to try to predict election outcomes . Our editorial board researches the candidates and the ballot measures , and makes endorsements that we

@@5140741 <p> LYRICS Hello . Goodbye . Hello . Goodbye . Hello , again . So glad to see you back in heaven again I do n't know where to begin ... Well , all good dogs go to heaven I 'm beggin ' , beggin ' , beggin ' ( please ... on my knees ) Hope and pray you know what to do Hope and pray you do When the day comes due , ... Related songs : The KEYS To VOCGTR Forge Ford Forward 1 , 2 , 3 For Wha ... <p> The Keys To VOCGTR.mp3 ( Free MP3 Download or Streaming Audio ) LYRICS Playing music Singing in a rock-and-roll band Living in sync With people all over this land Building note by note Building brick by brick Building stone by stone Creating new music The rhythm of the measure As the foundation of rock Making music with ... Related songs : Grohl School Rock n ... <p> LYRICS When I get close to you , there 's nothing that I can do I start to march Rhythm overtakes my heart If I thirst If the moth is parch Let the march burst Just you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ my thirst Let the heart burst No need to rehearse ... Related songs : 1 , 2 , 3 For

@@5140841 <h> Post navigation <h> Education Blog <h> Treasures at the Edge of the Sea <p> Walking along the beach , I am perfectly content looking for colorful pebbles , beach glass , and flat skipping stones . The search for these three simple items can keep my focus for an uncommonly long time , similar to the way pots and pans hold the attention of a two-year-old . <p> Eastern Long Island 's diverse beaches -- sandy , muddy or cobbled , ocean , bay or sound -- are fertile grounds for my pursuits . Nature writer Christopher Camuto observes : " We come back to the sea , not just for the beauty but for the strangeness of it -- the uncanny way it takes us in and keeps us out . " For me , this statement rings true in the way that , every now and then , the sea tosses ashore a different item of interest to distract me from my original targets , revealing a brief glimpse of marine life in the waters near the shore . <p> One beachcombing distraction is the attractive shell of the False Angel Wing . With its pair @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ imagine the live mollusk burrowing in the mud without the fragile shells breaking . Yet , False Angel Wings do burrow in the mud , and the shells do not break . Sticking with the theme , the shells of False Angel Wings are often found intact on the beach , despite their fragile make-up . When both shells are found together and spread open at the hinge , with a little imagination they do seem like the frilled wings of tiny angels . <p> Another distraction is an occasional amber-colored , kidney-shaped object that -- in the hand -- appears to be made of thin plastic . Technically known as a Moon Snail 's operculum , it serves as the trap door protecting the soft snail body from the outside world . It makes perfect sense that an operculum would catch my attention on the beach because it initially looks like one of my search items : a piece of brown beach glass . <p> False Angel Wings and opercula are interesting seaside finds every now and then ; even less frequently I stumble upon truly uncommon discoveries . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ inlet to Three Mile Harbor , I picked up the connected shells of a bivalve that I did not recognize at all : light green in color , about 1.5 inches long , oval at one end and elongated at the other , and much longer than wide . Its distinctive appearance made it fairly easy to match in the reference guides . This specimen was the first , last and only File Yoldia I have ever found . Now that I have made its acquaintance , the species intrigues me and I keep a constant lookout for another . If luck is on my side , one of these days I will come across a live one . The Peterson Field Guide to Shells instructs that the File Yoldia " is an active mollusk , living in mud but capable of swimming and leaping to an astonishing height ( ! ) " . What would it be like to see firsthand that strange behavior in a clam ? <p> A couple of months ago , on a sandy beach along Shinnecock Bay , I found another uncommon shell . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had been looking for -- but not finding -- a shell of this species for quite a few years . Flat , thin , somewhat rectangular , lustrous and pearly , my discovery was the bottom shell of a Gould 's Pandora . This bivalve mollusk lives in mud and sand in shallow waters of bay and ocean , but is generally uncommon throughout its range . Similar to the File Yoldia , I hope sometime to chance upon a live specimen of a Gould 's Pandora and learn more about this species through up-close observation . <p> The edge of the sea can often appear stingy in the way that it holds onto its secrets . But I am amazed at the way that it periodically doles out clues to those who are patient . Who knows what items will be encountered on future beach walks ? So I continue to take strolls along the interface of land and water , searching for my reliable treasures of pebble , glass and stone , perhaps to stumble upon additional curious remnants of life in the sea . <p> When you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on Long Island about the precious natural world , and you 're helping underprivileged kids go to our summer programs . <p> Holiday Open House &; Art Show Dec 1 Group for the East End is kicking off the holiday season with an open house and reception for a new show of paintings by Sag Harbor artist , Anne Seelbach . <p> December Wildlife on Dune Road Dec 2 This morning wildlife search along Dune Road in Hampton Bays should encounter a variety of waterfowl , a handful of shorebirds , perhaps a few birds of prey , and a harbor seal or two . <p> Nature Crafts II : Pine Cone Bird Feeder Dec 8 Make your own bird feeder during our workshop and learn about the different birds you may attract

@@5140941 <p> Alright , so here 's the backstory that I can gather from various sources across the interweb . Apparently , Guy does not go to Kansas and was just in town visiting his buddies for Halloween weekend , dressing as a lifeguard ( or a shirtless douche -- no one is 100% sure ) . Girl does attend Kansas and decided to dress as slutty schoolgirl ( personally , my favorite -- kudos ) . They both apparently definitely got super drunk and the following pictures were posted on Twitter because apparently Guy and Girl forgot that we 're living in 2012 . <p> Pants down at the bar is possibly one of the greatest accomplishments of all-time . My only question : Where the hell are the security guards ? At Penn State , I swear one of my friends got kicked out of a bar before because he " had a drunk , stupid look on his face " . No stumbling and was talking like a gentleman/scholar . I guess the security guard just did n't like the way this kid looked . At Kansas , you can literally go reverse cowgirl on the dance @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Apparently this dude has been

@@5141041 <p> As we are in the midst of another Breast Cancer Awareness month , I wanted to offer some thoughts of my own on the topic -- note that this is not really a post about books or marketing -- just something important to me that I wanted to share with our community . <p> Until fairly recently , breast cancer was something I knew from a distance . Friends of friends had it . I knew other people who had been hit by other forms of cancer ( my father died of pancreatic cancer in 2010 for example ) , but somehow , breast cancer was an unknown to me personally . It made it easy to ignore the occasional generic plea to support a walkathon , or even wear the pink ribbon . That has all changed . In the last two years , two friends have been diagnosed with , and are battling , breast cancer . My childhood friend , Heather , has embraced the concept of kicking breast cancer square in the butt ( yes , I realize that is an awkward image , but I like it anyway ) . She is committed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ awareness while also lifting her own spirits . The power of positive thinking at work . She has graciously allowed me to use her face and name to help make my point . And the point I want to make to you is this -- breast cancer has a face . It is someone 's loved one , a childhood friend , a daughter or sometimes even a son . It is far from being a solved problem and we need to focus on prevention and early detection . <p> Camping with Dad , ( top ) and ( from left ) Me , Carol , Heather and my sister Cece . Yes , it was the 80 ? s ! <p> More money is funneled into treatment research than prevention or detection each year . In fact , in 2010 , $152 million of National Cancer Institute 's breast cancer funds went to treatment research , versus $101 million to detection/diagnosis and only $32 million to prevention . That needs to change . Did you know that new research shows that some forms of breast cancer may be caused @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ suspect . There is a vaccine for HPV ( HPV is also responsible for most cervical cancer ) . Can you imagine if there was a vaccine that would prevent breast cancer ? ( **stats via Glamour Magazine , October 2012 issue . ) <p> Did you also know that the average size of tumors detected by women with good health care is 1.5 cm or less ? On the other hand , with poor/no health care , it is 1.5 to 5 cm 's . That is the size of a raspberry , compared to that of an orange . Education on self-exam is critical , especially in populations where healthcare is less than ideal and most especially in younger women who think it is a problem beyond their years . <p> All of which tells us that research and prevention need to be a focus . So , if you have ever been like me , and were on the fence about where to put any of your hard earned donation dollars , please consider my post . Because , this is the face of breast cancer -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ My grandfather , my sister Cece and Heather at my father 's wedding . <p> I want to point out an organization that I think supports this cause in a fantastic and inspiring way , Bright Pink . This organization is primarily focused on the prevention and detection of breast cancer in young women , in particular those considered high risk . They use humor and modern technology , with programs like " Underwire Alerts -- treasure your chest " that remind women via text message to perform their self-exam . In support of their efforts , all thirteen authors of our book , Write for the Fight : A Collection of Seasonal Essays have agreed to donate their royalties to Bright Pink . <p> To end this post , I leave you with something straight off of Heather 's Facebook page . <p> Heather -- Thank you for letting me talk about something so personal , in such a

@@5141141 <h> Banner Designed by : <h> December 08 , 2009 <h> Sarah Palin : Going Rogue All the Way to the White House ? <p> Sarah Palin in 2012 ? Some are chuckling , but they might want to rethink their take on the first woman on a GOP presidential ticket . <p> Conservative pundit David Brooks laughed out loud at the suggestion , calling her a " joke " . Her former running mate John McCain called her " irrelevant . " Others point to 2008 wannabes Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee as more qualified and doing better in polls than Palin when people talk about GOP Presidential hopefuls . Of course , most thought that quitting her day job as Alaska Governor was the death knell for her political career , but I think this is just the beginning of Palin 's national political career . After all , she was just on Oprah ! <p> Seriously , as I have to remind some who 've accused me of being a closet Republican , I 'm no political fan of Palin . But when people dismiss her out of hand , I keep thinking one thing -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ close to being competent enough for the White House ? <p> Yup -- George W. Bush . And then we said , " Oh , well , at least he 'll only be a one-termer like his father . " We were 0 for 2 on that front . It turns out that the " smart " Bush was n't the one people related to -- as a nation , we preferred the baseball-loving , brush-clearing , **28;1067;TOOLONG . <p> More people liked Bush because even though he has two Ivy League degrees , they saw the " common " man in him , and that made them connect with him in a Dr. Phil sort of way . <p> People also related to Barack Obama in spite of his Harvard degree because he , too , had a good dose of the " everyman " in his life story -- son of a single mom from middle America who struggled with his identity and did n't have things just handed to him on a platter . <p> We know what it 's like to be on a tight budget @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ health care , let alone college tuition . ... We know what it 's like to work union jobs , to be blue-collar , white-collar , to have our kids in public schools . We felt our very normalcy , our status as ordinary Americans , could be a much-needed fresh breeze blowing into Washington , D.C. <p> Plus there are still plenty of women who are smarting over Hillary Clinton 's loss and who just might vote for Palin if she 's the candidate in 2012 because they do n't want to wait one more second to see a woman in charge of the Oval Office . Now , she even thinks she 's smart enough to be President ! <p> Do n't laugh too hard ! Democrats are n't doing such a bang up job at the moment -- they 're dragging their feet on Paycheck Fairness , throwing reproductive health under the bus and we still are n't further on paid sick days even though we 're all spreading the swine flu to each other like wildfire . <p> Palin is a wily one so I 'm @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ if she 's got something else on her agenda . I 'm betting that being President is a little too much real work for her and that she 's angling for something else . <p> My official prediction is that Palin wants Michael Steele 's job as head of the Republican National Committee . Even though Steele has taken his share of jabbing and is n't the most effective one , the position of RNC Chair can be an extremely powerful position -- maybe even more powerful than President when it comes to selecting candidates for races around the country . Plus , you do n't have to worry about all those pesky voters , campaign debates and whistle-stop tours ! One of the most important roles of a party chair is to be fundraiser-in-chief and that 's something that Palin has proven she excels at . <p> As much as many would like to dismiss her from the national stage ( myself included ) , Palin is n't going quietly . Whether you like her or not , one has to acknowledge the power in that . Whether she @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ some other political plum , she 'll definitely have plenty of pocket change to look for a pied-a-terre in the <h> Comments <p> You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post . <p> Irrelevant ? McCain can only wish because she is a player and he helped put her on the field . <p> I think you 've hit on it when you mentioned that Palin is wily but that being president is probably too much work . People like to talk about how dumb she is but I think the truth is closer to lazy . She has used charm and looks and an ability to manipulate people to get by until now , so why fix a winning formula ? <p> She is not going anywhere . Things can easily get worse economically ( bad debt abounds and the dollar is no sure thing for starters ) . We have no idea what Obama is really up to on the war front as he gave himself plenty of leeway to change his mind . And it is more and more clear that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ himself as to get female voters to throw Clinton under the bus . <p> I totally agree with you , and agree with the previous poster in that Palin is not dumb , and maybe not even lazy , I think she wants the easy , cheap ride . She is definitely one to be wary of . Bush scared me - Palin FREAKS ME OUT . <h> MOMocrats Like <p> Buy this book ! <p> Our MOMocrats MOMochat Sponsor <p> Register to vote here , no matter what state you live in ! <h> Just So We 're Clear <p> Comment Policy <p> Please feel free to comment , debate , or ask questions . We reserve the right to delete , edit , or moderate any comments that are offensive , libelous , harassing , off-topic spam , or that attempt to intimidate our contributors or our readers . In other words , mind your manners or you may get a time out . <p> Affiliations <p> The MOMocratsT site is not affiliated with or paid for by any Democratic candidate , PAC or the Democratic National Committee

@@5141241 <h> At Neal 's Yard Remedies : <h> Vitamin C fights the effects of air pollution <p> Natural Health News -- Here 's another great reason to embrace a diet rich in fruit and vegetables : the nutrients in them can help combat the health damaging effects of air pollution . <p> Researchers looked at London hospital patients with asthma or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease ( COPD ) , and found that those with low levels of vitamin C had an increased risk of breathing problems on days when outdoor air pollution levels were high . <p> The study involved 209 people between the years of 2008 and 2010 , who were admitted into an area hospital due to COPD or asthma . Most of the patients were 54 to 74 , although some participants were as young as 18 . Many patients were former smokers ; all had an increased risk of breathing problems if air pollution was high . <p> Soot in the skies <p> Specifically , the researchers looked at levels of " coarse particulate matter , " which is produced largely through the combustion of fossil fuels . This type of soot has a diameter @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . European standards for coarse particulate matter pollution are the same as the ones that the US Environmental Protection Agency has set : 50 micrograms per cubic meter ( mcg/m3 ) . <p> Previous studies have linked high levels of outdoor air pollution with an increased risk of deaths from respiratory illnesses , as well as emergency room visits for these conditions . <p> Increased risk for COPS and asthma sufferers <p> They found that in people with COPD or asthma , for every 10 mcg/m3or air the risk of hospitalisation for breathing-related issues increased by 35% . For those who had low levels of Vitamin C , that number was increased by 120% . That correlation held true even when researchers excluded the elderly and former smokers in their analysis , though they did find that former smokers tended to have lower levels of Vitamin C than non-smokers . <p> Researchers believe that Vitamin C alleviates the effects of air pollutants because of its antioxidant properties . Antioxidants protect the body from unstable molecules called free radicals that damage cells . Research has indicated that free radicals may play @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and respiratory diseases . <p> It is unclear as to whether the link between Vitamin

@@5141341 <p> The countdown is down to three days before we officially kick of My Exxel Beyond and we going to keep the excitement and momentum rolling with another corporate overview call tonight at 10pm EST . The dial in number is 1-213-226-0400 pin 282543 . <p> NOW is the time to put your foot on the gas pedal of your business and INVITE guests to tonight 's call . Also , it is very important that you LET THE COMPANY KNOW if you have the wrong person listed in your welcome email as your sponsor . PLEASE CHECK your welcome email from us and verify if the person listed in your email is the person who is supposed to be your sponsor . If it 's wrong , please send an email to admin@myexxelbeyond.com and let us know and we will get it changed for you . <p> Thanks to all of our leaders who are sharing MyExxelBeyond everyday with their friends , family , and business networks all across the globe , we are going to build

@@5141441 <p> Early construction of a new building at Crystal Lake 's West Beach began at the end of August . The $1.7 million building is being financed by non-referendum bonds not subject to the Property Tax Cap . <p> Today we are looking at Park Districts with territory in McHenry County to find out if any are close to their maximum rate limits . The source of this information is the Tax Rate page of the McHenry County Clerk 's web site . <p> As long as the rates are under the limit enough , districts can continue to obtain the extra tax dollars which the Property Tax Cap allows . <p> That is a 3% increase for next year . <p> In such cases , it does not matter that one 's property value has decreased . <p> Park Districts that had debt outstanding at the end of 1994 or 1995 were granted the ability to sell bonds in perpetuity without voter approval as long as the amount of interest and principal are the same as the amount paid in that benchmark year . <p> It something like a revolving credit card that never has to be paid @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ building at Crystal Lake 's West Beach . <p> There certainly was no referendum passed . <p> Marengo 's Park District is at the 10 cent limit for its Corporate Fund already . That accounted for just 29% of the tax rate , however . Another fund , the Recreation Fund , is not near its limit . It took up 24% of the tax bill this year . <p> That , with another 35% of the bill not limited by the Tax Cap means Marengo taxpayers should not hold their breath hoping the Tax Cap will cut their Park District tax bill next year . <p> The Park District tax bill was cut last year , Heather Shepard told me. because a bond was paid off . <p> The first park district on the McHenry County Clerk 's list , Barrington Hills , is near its maximum . Its maximum rate is 10 cents per $100 of assessed valuation and it 's rate this year is 9.965589 cents per hundred . <p> Multiply this year 's rate by the increase in the Consumer Price Index ( 3% ) and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be 10.25 cents per hundred . <p> Administering the Tax Cap the McHenry County Clerk 's Office will say , " Sorry , " so to speak , " you can only get 10 cents per hundred . " <p> The Cary Park District , on the other hand , is at its maximum tax rate for its Corporate Fund right now . That 's 35 cents per hundred . <p> Thar Corporate fund amounted to 53% of its total tax take this year . <p> Cary 's Recreation Fund is getting close to the limit , but wo n't reach it for about two more years . <p> When that happens , about 70% of the Park District tax rate will be prohibited from increasing . <p> Crystal Lake , on the other hand , has about three more years at current rates of inflation before it bumps up against its maximum Corporate Fund rate of 10 cents per hundred . <p> Almost as large is something called an " Additional Corporate Fund . " It 's maximum is 25 cents per hundred and this year it is only @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for growth there . <p> There is also a " Recreation Fund " with a 12 cent per hundred maximum . It is at 8.9 cents . <p> There are also a couple of other funds under their smaller maximum rates with no limit and all the bond paybacks , including ones issued without referendum approval , so the Tax Cap wo n't have much effect on the Crystal Lake Park District for some time . <p> In any event , from a levy workshop I thought the Crystal Lake Park District is planning to tax to the max in the coming year . Turns out the Board changed its collective mind in the intervening week and decided only to raise taxes by 0.45% . See story here . <p> The Huntley Park District is not close to its maximum tax rate limits . <p> There is also another factor in play which could cause many more tax districts statutory rate limit problems . <p> Mandated by the State Revenue Department , assessment levels will decrease by 9% . <p> Logic tells me that a district less than 12% below @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ allowed under PTELL , the acronym of the property tax cap law . <p> The new West Beach Community Center is a disgusting waste of money . If the Park District really needed a community center , why did n't they buy the Lakewood Village Hall and just tear down the old west beach building . Then Lakewood would be able to move it 's offices , as they want to do , and not depend upon some half baked restaurant to buy the property with no

@@5141541 <h> Windows Vista Beta 1 Review ( Part 1 ) <p> My unhappy reaction to the Windows Hardware Engineering ( WinHEC ) 2005 build of Longhorn is now , shall we say , infamous . I was n't trying to make a statement per se . But I did refer to the next major version of Windows as a " train wreck , " so I guess it makes sense that people would latch onto that statement . <p> A little work on Microsoft 's behalf could have prevented this problem . For example , a pre-WinHEC briefing in which the expectations of me and other Windows enthusiasts were suitably moderated would have been a great start . As it was , I went into WinHEC with high hopes , especially given the news that we would receive our first Longhorn build in a full year . <p> As I noted in my review of Longhorn build 5048 ( see my review ) , however , my hopes were ill-placed . Build 5048 was a major step back from the previous build we had received ( 4074 ) , from functional and features standpoints . <p> OK , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Microsoft briefed me about Windows Vista Beta 1 , suitably setting my expectations . And Beta 1--and the pre-Beta 1 builds I 've used over the past weeks--are much , much more impressive than Build 5048 . Microsoft may have made some boneheaded mistakes in the past , but they 're clearly learning . <p> On a much grander scale , Longhorn is finally improving again . Beta 1 does n't feature the end-user functionality that will make this release compelling to actual human beings , but it does include enough new technology to stir my technology-loving heart . I still have my fears for Longhorn--er ah , Windows Vista--but before we get to that , let 's take a little tour through the Beta 1 experience . <h> Installation <p> Compared to the installation routine for Windows XP , Windows Vista Beta 1 's Setup has been drastically simplified . I installed the beta in two ways on a number of different machines : As a clean install on a new partition , starting from Windows XP ( see my screenshot gallery ) and as a clean install as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Setup DVD ( see my screenshot gallery ) . And yes , you read that right : Windows Vista 1 Beta 1 , in either x86 or x64 form , comes only on DVD . In both cases , Setup only prompts you for a few simple items and then does its thing . An upgrade install ( where you upgrade from XP to Vista ) does not appear to be available in Beta 1 . <p> In both types of installations , Setup prompts you for your product key , presents the End User License Agreement ( EULA ) , and then lets you choose the installation type ( Custom , in this case ) . Then , you can choose the install partition and the computer name . In the install partition phase ( Figure ) , you can perform tasks such as creating , deleting , and formatting partitions as well . Then , Vista installs , rebooting the system once during the install and once after it 's completed . <p> If you boot the system with the Windows Vista Beta 1 CD , you 'll @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you to hit any key to start Setup : It says you can boot " from CD or DVD "