Datasets:

shayantreylon2

/

no2

like 0

Nothing. If couch potatoing happens it happens. There's nobody who can choose to be a couch potato or not be one. So a lot of people - teachers - say Well no2 is teaching spiritual laziness. Of course, they're not really hearing what's being said. They think that no2 is saying, There's nothing you can do so go and watch East Enders, but actually that isn't the message. The fundamental message is, there is no such thing as a separate entity with free will or choice and so nobody can choose to watch East Enders or not watch it. What is apparently done or not done is completely irrelevant to being. <span class=t3>&nbsp; So when you're attached to your identity you try to bend things, to want things and do things. You dream that you are doing those things and need to do them in order to get more things. So that just disappears? What disappears is the one who feels separate. There's only being. It can't be conceived of. It can't be described. It cannot even be known.

If there's no meaning, what stops you from being a couch potato?

It's compelling and fascinating to you. If you take you out of the happening it's just what's happening. What's compelling about what's happening right now? I mean it's just happening. What's the compulsion?

This story is so compelling. This is so compelling.

But where is that story right now? What's happening in that story?

It's a thought story that feels very real.

Where's this going right now? Is there a story? What's happening there? What is sensed there right now in the body?

What's happening in that story?

So that's what there is. That is this, beingness. But the mind gets hold of the tiredness and says that is your tiredness and so what you need to do now is get to bed, or not work so hard, or use your energy in a better way. And there you are back in a story trying to make things better for you.

Tiredness.

No. It's really because you are still there taking ownership of the tiredness. Then when you're in bed and you've slept for 12 hours you'll take ownership of feeling better. It's always telling you You're going to feel better - or worse. It's the greatest and most powerful addiction there is , you.

Yes. And it's because the tiredness is there.

It isn't the last or first life. It's no-one's life at all. This isn't your life. There isn't anyone who has their own life, there is only life.

How do you know if this is the last life you're going to live?

There's no past because there's no-one. The mind wants things to continue so it creates the idea that you've had a past life. Usually as a great healer or a queen or something! It's never a lavatory cleaner! And then you will die and become another great queen - or a lavatory cleaner, It's the individual in the dream wanting always to continue, it's called self-survival, that's why it goes on seeking because it wants things to continue. It doesn't want to come to an end. It doesn't want to die. The last thing it wants is liberation. The last thing it wants is absence, and absence is liberation. But most seekers want something. They want to be enlightened and they don't think that's the end of them. They think that they will become enlightened and they think other people are enlightened.

To you then, past lives are irrelevant? obviously, because there's no-one. Yes, OK.

No, awakening is absence. It's nothing. The end of separation is awakening. When there's an awakening from the dream of being separate there is only being. But in that being can arise an apparent memory about something that happened last week. But the memory is being this. If you look at memory it only arises in this. Memory arises . It's another aliveness. Remembering something is aliveness. It doesn't then mean that there was a last week.

Can you say something about no past, no future, because memory seems to have failed at that? If it was seen, if it was known that there was no past and there is no future, that would be tantamount to awakening wouldn't it, in a sense?

Oh everything in the dream totally convinces the dreamer that that is the reality. Everything in the dream convinces the dreamer that they are an individual in a world that is in time, and that life is happening to them and it has a meaning and a purpose. But there's absolutely no antidote to that? Except the dissolution of the dreamer. There's no antidote for dreaming except waking up.

No, no, but the sense of being trapped in time, place and person seems to be real.

Well there doesn't need to be because there's nothing wrong with that.

Yes, but there's no remedy for that at all is there?

Dreaming. Separation. It is the expression of being. In separation there is a feeling of disquiet and then for the seeker that creates a sense of loss and a sense of suffering which then impels them to try and either escape from that suffering or to resolve it. The difficulty for the seeker is that they can neither escape from it or resolve it because that very effort fuels the sense of separation.

Nothing wrong with what?

there is only being. It doesn't just happen in being and not in being. There is only being and seeking arises in being.

That just happens in being too doesn't it?

But there doesn't need to be because there's nothing wrong with suffering and loss and seeking. It's just what it is.

So there is no remedy because you can't stop yourself?

No.

So the clarity to understand this stuff is of no aid whatsoever?

No, none at all.

I mean there's absolutely no point in coming to listen to this?

No, but are you going to stop coming?

But truly there isn't?

Because there is no-one to choose either way. No amount of concepts, no amount of words or ideas are ever going to open anybody's eyes. They're just words.

I can't stop coming.

No, absolutely not, because there's no-one that has anything. There's no-one that has anything therefore there's no-one to give anything to anyone else. And because there is no-one else there's no-one to give it to anyway. The whole idea of transmission of energy or enlightenment from one to another is based on the misconception of personal enlightenment or the idea that there is something separate called enlightenment that can somehow be possessed and then passed on or given to someone else, like so much candy.

no2, you spoke about an energetic shift and I am imagining that there could be some kind of transmitting of an energy that would allow this apparent body-mind over here to ,

Being is boundlessness. There is only boundlessness. There is only being and there isn't anything else but that. Try and find something that isn't being. There is only being and what's amazing about it is that in that being arises the idea that there isn't being , that there is a me looking for being, looking for enlightenment. This is absolute immaculate wholeness and in that immaculate wholeness arises the idea that this isn't immaculate wholeness. But it's not only an idea. It's energetically held. The seeker is energetically holding on to me - I'm in this body and separate from what's out there! The holding on to me is an energetic contraction out of fear and the need to survive. That apparent contraction can dissipate into boundlessness. The energetic shift apparently happens out of the absence of separation and therefore doesn't happen to anyone.

What is the energetic thing?

That's the mystery. This is nothing happening. It's nothing. It's no-thing clapping its hands. The difficulty for the seeker is that it thinks that that is something that's real, it's happening in time to the seeker. Because the seeker thinks they are something they can only see everything else as a lot of other somethings. They daren't see the no-thing , it is too frightening.

So how can everything be happening and nothing's happening?

It's a mystery. There is no answer. But it doesn't matter about seeing that or not seeing that. This is it. Already this is the play of being. Even the frustration I'm not seeing this is the absolute play of being.

What's the answer to that?

There aren't any conditions or cause and effect, except in the dream of becoming.

So it's not cause and effect; it's nothing to do with proper conditions?

It hurts.

But if you bang your hand on a wall or something ,

It certainly seems to.

The effect is that it hurts.

It only appears to be cause and effect. In the manifestation there seems to be cause and effect, and the difficulty for the dreamer is that they then apply some sort of fixed reality and meaning to that. And therefore they then follow that by saying, Well if I meditate I will become still. That's cause and effect. Then I will reach the goal. There is no I and there is no goal and no time to reach it. So there's apparent cause and effect, not actual cause and effect? There isn't anything that's actual. All manifestation is both real and unreal. It is simply being. Cats are being. Trees are being. Walls are being. Human beings are being and dream that they are separate from being. So therefore nothing lies outside of the dream? Oh yes, the dream is the dream of self-consciousness. The dream, or, if you prefer, the belief and experience of being separate, is uniquely human. No cat feels separate. Trees don't feel separate. Have you ever come across a self-conscious tree? We walk round as being looking for being, that's the dream from which there can be an awakening , apparently.

So why is that not cause and effect?

No.

But if there were no humans there 'd still be trees and cats?

Yes. Or if a man's standing in the desert and there's no woman for 2,000 miles, is he still wrong?

No? There wouldn't? It's like the old saying, if a tree falls in the forest, but you have no-one there to hear ,

It's a way to sell something. You know the whole enlightenment teaching is about you getting something and the irony is that enlightenment is about loss. It is about there being no you. There are a lot of teachers who will give this idea lip service. They will start by saying There is only oneness. Nobody can do anything about enlightenment. It's totally beyond anything - but in the meantime what you need to do in order to find that out is to meditate or self-enquire. , or whatever is the agenda. You have to prepare yourself to discover that there's no-one and nothing to prepare for.

I've read that when you become enlightened or free there will be peace and joy and bliss.

I use the words awakening and liberation because I can't think of anything else to use. But there is no such thing as awakening or liberation because nothing's happening anyway. There is only the play of being, so nothing needs to be liberated. But for the seeker those are just words. Those purely conceptual teachings don't illuminate the apparent dilemma of the seeker and they also totally ignore the most powerful thing of all, and that is the energetic element. Awakening is an energetic shift. It's about the alive-ness of this , what is happening. There is a gift within the essence of what is sensed. You can go on repeating conceptual ideas forever but ideas are stories about this. For me awakening is the nearest description I can get to what I see as the apparent awakening from the dream or belief and experience that there is a separate individual. However, there is no-one that awakens. So people are going to go pop around you are they? No, absolutely not, because this has nothing to do with being around me because there is no me. But what the seeker is meeting and communicating with is no-thing, and when the apparent something meets nothing there can be an energy shift. Also in that freedom there is no longer any demand or expectation laid on anyone and the whole sense of struggle and effort can fall away. Everyone is already seen in wholeness. This is all about rediscovering something that is already being. But by its very nature, it isn't anybody's to give or receive.

What's your take on all these different descriptions like awakening, self-realisation, liberation?

The dreaming is only about separation. After the dream, after apparent liberation, there are still characteristics. There's still a body-mind that has characteristics , that is aliveness apparently happening. As a dreamed character then? No, the dream is only about the dream of being a separate entity.

So I'm the dreamer rather than the dream character, or a bit of both?

Yes, in apparent liberation the dream of being separate is no more.

But the dream's over?

No, there is no-one to cope with anything, there is just nakedness.

Yes, but do you just cope with that vulnerability and go with it?

It's like being naked and open to everything and there's a sense of risk about it. Everything is suddenly unknown and very alive , there are no filters.

It just all happens then?

There is no-one to get used to anything. There are no artificial filters that you previously provided as an individual. That's why it's got nothing to do with what people call detachment. It's totally full-on aliveness , for no-one.

You get used to it?

It's a false sense that first of all there is someone. I am a separate person and everything out there is separate from me and in some way or other is threatening. So I put up filters. I protect myself by trying to inhibit feelings. Another way I protect myself from those things that arise as threatening is to get to understand what they are. Basically we try to understand what there is out there that seems threatening so that we can know it and control it. It's an artificial filter that we seem to construct in the hypnotic dream of being separate.

no2, this sense of vulnerability is because all the filters have come off. I sometimes wonder what that was? What was that sense of security, those filters?

Quite often people say to me that openness has happened. The other night this happened. And immediately the mind came back with a story or anything to get them back to being a person. Oh god, let me think of something , my bank overdraft for instance, anything that will bring me back into being an individual. And people apparently have games that go on keeping them stuck in individuality for fear of boundlessness.

I remember once this vulnerability and saying to myself This is this and that's that, and feeling immediately much more secure.

Yes, I like that. But there is no you to be anywhere.

So in a sense are you saying instead of being a reference point on a map, you become the whole map?

In liberation there can still be a sense of location where there is just what's going on. There are no reference points. There's nothing that's going on for something. There's just what's going on.

The sense of location is something that's definitely going on?

No of course not. There is only beingness.

And there's no difference between being anywhere and anywhere else?

Yes, I think so, they could take you directly to an institution.

When I get back to the U.S. my parents are going to be picking me up at the airport, and I was trying to think of how to describe this week , and so I thought I will say, Well I went to England to learn something from a man who says he is not there, who has nothing to teach, and I am not there either. It is all pointless and it is hopeless and I paid good money for it, and I am thinking of going back in November next year. I think that needs some work, you know.

The only thing about all of this is that it's very easy to get back into the concepts about this, about me-ing and be-ing and about there being no-one, there only being oneness, and all of those ideas, and really lose the main essence of this message. You described telling somebody when you go home, I met this man who says there is no-one there, and I am not there and there is no meaning. All of that is the part of this message that leaves the apparent seeker with nothing to get hold of. However, the most vital and relevant communication in the open secret is the vibrant aliveness of just what is happening , seeing, hearing, breathing and thinking and also the arising of feelings. We tend to have feelings that arise and then we poke them with a stick, The mind will say, why do I feel anger or sadness? So we must work out why, or we must do something with anger or sadness like honour it, or share it with other people. We can't just let it be there! And this message is absolutely about this aliveness, the aliveness that is simple and present and is the only constant. This is the song of love. The song of freedom is in our bodies, in our senses, all the time constantly being and speaking to us through the body. And the whole thing about not being here, and there being no meaning, is just incidental to that absolute passionate aliveness.

I have learned by experience, with the no2 no2 happening, that when you go home the best thing to do is to find yourself a quiet corner and not say anything to anybody, because you cannot explain the unexplainable. It's really best just to say as little as possible.

The aliveness is nothing being something, so the aliveness is both real and unreal; nothing appearing as being alive. This is nothing clapping. We tend to think in terms of being in a place called liberation or whatever you like, or even being in a place called being. Being is in this, , all is being. It's as simple and immediate as that. What is happening is this, aliveness, being. It can't be known and doesn't need to be known and held onto.

So is the aliveness as real as the nothing?

It's not even close. It's not right here it's all there is, and is not. What we look for is constantly already in what is, aliveness, what is happening. It is constantly all there is , and isn't.

I once read a book years ago by a healer and he said that it's nearer, closer than breathing, nearer than hands and feet, so it's kind of right here.

Yes, it's amazing, it is the immediacy of this, that is where it is, the secret is in the essence of aliveness.

I don't know if anyone else has experienced this. A couple of times I have just been doing something very ordinary like drying my hands and I've suddenly looked down as if I am seeing my hands for the first time. It was so different from all the other times that I've apparently seen them, but I just couldn 't let go, I just wanted to, well I did, I sort of just left them there until it just eventually went.

Oh, we don't notice this at all, we are always looking for what's next. We are always looking out there, when it is actually right with us right in this. We are sitting on it. But, the amazing paradox is that the seeker's distraction is also immaculate being.

We totally overlook it, don't we, we don't even see it any more?

as my wife says, it is a sudden wow that becomes a gentle, subtle, constant wow.

Your example is perfect when you clap your hands, because that is exactly what it is. It's just a clapping, just a moment of amazement, wow, it is just like, wow. It is so ordinary, it's so completely ordinary, but it's so beautiful.

Well there isn't a mechanism, it's just what is apparently happening. What happens is being separate and there is a sort of fascination about, I am separate and I can do it. I can do this. It's a fascinating dream.

What is the mechanism that makes separation possible?

Yes, but it doesn't matter because it's perfect. It's not wrong, it is absolutely the perfect game that being plays of being totally fascinated with being a separate entity and doing it all. The world that we see is an absolute expression of what appears to be individual creativity or action. So it is being arising as totally fascinated by the idea of being separate and doing things.

Is it just the fascination and you get caught in the fascination?

There isn't any. What we call a glimpse, which we think is half a second, is actually eternity, so that is awakening. It is the being of oneness for nobody.

no2, what is the difference between having a glimpse, or glimpses, and an awakening?

it has. Don't tell my wife. I won't tell your wife, The sweetest thing I ever heard was from an American, who said The worst nightmare is that my wife becomes enlightened before I do. And it doesn't necessarily mean that anything else will happen.

Because I have had glimpses, yet I don't feel that awakening has happened.

Well it is, it is all there is except you don't think it is.

life goes on. But liberation is not there.

I could send you a certificate if you like?

Yes, OK.

Grade three awakening,

Do you charge for them?

Quite expensive though,

Like a report card?

Perception arises in being but without a centre or a perceiver.

no2, there must be a centre of perception for you?

There is no perceiver to perceive something else , there is only what is, isness, being. Perception arises in being but being can't be perceived or known.

I don't understand.

It is being. There is only being. Coming from a practical point of view, this body-mind organism will perceive the door opening and walk through it. It does walk through walls but only on Thursdays! (laughter! In other words, everything just goes on as it did before, but there is only being. So even though there is the sense of sight, that's not perception? It is nobody's perception , it is just perception happening, but it is happening within being. So the functions still apparently happen but there isn't a centre from which they happen.

OK.

That happens, but for no-one and all within being. It is timeless.

Sure, but life is experienced also, presumably through senses?

There isn't an awareness or a focus at all, there is only being.

And there is more of an awareness of that rather than a focus?

No, not at all. That is all and everything , So it is one with? No, it is absolutely not at one with it, it is no-thing being everything. And it is a mystery because the mystery is that we always think that it should be known in some way or another, or perceived. As I have said before, the Buddhists' idea of ultimate enlightenment is the knowing of the known. But, there needs to be a known and a knower so this is still locked into the story of two, just as awareness or mindfulness is. All there is is being , it cannot be known , it is the mystery and wonder of unknowing , indefinable, ineffable isness. It's not some amazing place to be in, somewhere else, it is what's in this room right now, that's all there is to it. Totally, absolutely, naturally, ordinarily this.

OK, so that's not separate from the appearance of objects, at all?

Why do we always want more! This utter madness and insatiable greed that wants more than everything. It's amazing. I can't imagine that there could be any more than nothing and everything,

And even though there is no caring about this at all, isn't it possible that further aspects of the mystery could at some point be revealed?

But for me the mystery is the unknowing, the wonderfully risky aliveness in free fall. The mind can't ever see how there could just be being, that there could be something that is there that isn't known, because the mind wants to know, wants to be in control. So what I am saying is that for the mind it's an absolute mystery. For liberation there is no mystery, there is just what there is, but it is apparently arising in unknowing.

But you used the word mystery you see.

It is unexplainable to the mind, essentially, whereas in liberation there is no longer anything that needs an explanation , that needs knowing.

So are you saying, when you say mystery, you mean that it's unexplainable?

No, you can't possibly. You can't know it. It's like the eye trying to see itself.

It's because we want to narrow the thinking, we can't squeeze it into thought.

There isn't a beginning. You could say the awakening, the timeless wonder of this, reveals that there was apparently separation. But the recognition of being separate is only the recognition of separation. It's another experience. There is certainly something that is enlightening about that, but it isn't any more than that. In other words, you then have someone who is enlightened about understanding and comprehending that the seeking is fuelling the separation. But really I think you are just talking about clarity. What blows everything apart is nothing. You are walking along the road and then there is nothing. Bang! And then after that nothing is ever quite the same. It wouldn't matter if you went on for the rest of your life without anything more happening, still everything is different thereafter. It is never the same, you will never go back to where you were just before.

And, the enduring paradox is that as long as there is separation there is a seeker, and as long as there is a seeker there is a separation. It's a paradox. The beginning of the end of that paradox, is in seeing that separation is that?

It is indescribable.

So no2, is it the experience of being nowhere or everywhere or both?

Yes, there is already only nothing being everything, the absolute being relative.

So nowhere and everywhere are the same thing?

Well words are always in battle, they are dualistic , based on subject-object. It is possible to analyse everything that is said and expose the futility of verbal expression on this subject, but it is a shallow activity born of the frustration of not being able to sense where the words are pointing.

no2, I feel this, not just here, but when I am reading, I feel this sort of splitting being, where on the one hand there are these words and concepts like being and then on the other hand there is the, I suppose you could call it, poetic expressions like beloved, Home, with a capital H; I can't connect them, they seem to be opposites, like male and female, or something like that.

No, that's alright, I mean there is obviously nothing wrong with being locked into a place. And there are definitely, with all of this, words, concepts and ideas, and even the recognition that seeking fuels separation is still another concept. It's like going down the road and there is a sign to the left saying Let's talk about being, and there is a sign to the right that says Being, so what we are doing here, most of the time, is talking about being. And that is OK, that is what is apparently happening. However, what's also happening here is that the questions dry up , the seeking mind gives up because it can't get an answer that would fuel another question.

But it's more, it is not just words, it's not just about words, it is actually about the kind of taste of it all. In a way I think you are saying that I am caught up in the descriptions , I suppose sometimes that's all I've got.

Yes, maybe. The seeker will find any way not to be, because the seeker is scared of being, because it would mean that the seeker would then cease to be, to exist.

That's what's happening, up to now.

In a sense, there is only this energy but it just so happens here that what we are doing is talking about being.

I think I know that. It does seem though that during these days I have found that I don't try to manipulate experience.

But I didn't write that book and we are not having a meeting and there is no-one here. It only appears that I wrote a book and then people heard about this and came. That is an appearance, and then the mind thinks that proves that there is such a thing as cause and effect. This goes back to this strange paradox that actually there is nothing happening.

no2, when you say there is no cause and effect , I mean, for instance, you wrote The Open Secret and the fact is that people come to meetings and something happens. I hear you say that there is no cause and effect. Is that because there can be no relationship between dream and reality?

There only appears to be cause and effect, meaning the story.

So it's like there is cause and effect, but you just can't go there?

The appearance of cause and effect is no more than the appearance of this cup. It appears to be a cup, and there appears to be something called cause and effect.

There appears to be, but one can't go there?

It is what appears to be happening. It arises in being, as everything else does. It only arises in being, and it is both real and unreal.

But as soon as you enter it,

No, it doesn't matter anyway, but being can't be understood or known.

I don't think it is understandable.

It would demonstrate how cause and effect appear to operate. But the fundamental realisation arises out of liberation that cause and effect is totally and utterly meaningless. It is only the mind that thinks in terms of story. But there isn't anywhere to go. There is nowhere that anything has ever been.

But if you were demonstrating the laws of cause and effect, and you were showing simply how cause and effect works, and you were holding that cup and you let go and it smashed on the ground, would that be a demonstration of how cause and effect didn't operate?

Yes, it's a description of something that is just not comprehensible. Suddenly it is. People phone me and say, I have been listening to you talk all of this gob-bledygook for a year, you know, there is no cause and effect, and suddenly it is all totally clear. It has now been seen that that's how it is, but before that it has to just be a concept.

no2, that paradox, all that can be said about it is that it's there but it's not there?

All there is is this. And this is being. Being , being room, being bodies, being seats. All there is is being. So tonight we're going to share together a rare and revolutionary message. We can look together at the nature of the open secret. It's a secret all the time there's anyone looking for it. It's open because it's all there is. All there is is being and being is both nothing and everything. There is no other. In all there is arises the idea of separation. This is being appearing as a separate entity and dreaming that it is a separate individual. So what appears is the dreamer, and the dreamer's function is only to dream in separation as an individual. And when that takes place, there's a feeling of discomfort, there's a feeling of loss. So from the moment of separation as a tiny child there is seeking. The clock starts ticking and seeking happens. And that seeking is the longing to fill that sense of loss. All teachings of becoming teach you that you are a separate individual and you have a choice and you have to make an effort to get to somewhere. And that whole belief system reinforces the power of the dream and the sense of separation. It's just the dream. It's a story. It's the apparent story of being seeking being. But it is possible, when there's a readiness, and it's nobody's readiness, that something else will be heard , another possibility that's totally revolutionary will be heard. And what can be heard is that there is an awakening from the dream. But it won't be the dreamer that awakens from the dream. The dreamer, the seeker, suddenly is no more and that is the awakening. It's a fundamental shift in perception that happens. But there is no-one who can make that happen nor will the awakening happen to anyone. No-one can do it for you and you can't do it because you, the seeker, can only function in the moving story of finding, of anticipating. It's going to be the next time. It's going to be after the next meditation. It's going to be on the next page , the answers could be on the next page. The dreamer always lives in anticipation. The clock is always ticking. Liberation incidentally brings with it the realisation that there is no clock, there is no dreamer, there is no seeker, no guru, there is no awakening or liberation , all there is is being. So, together perhaps we will find that questions can arise and, in a sense, there won't be any answers because there is no answer. The answer to life is that there is no answer. Life is the answer. So the mind will probably go on fighting and trying to find something that it can do and choose, but here it may be discovered that that's not possible. There is an argument that questioning keeps on regenerating itself through dialogues, but that need not happen here. The mind discovers here that there is nowhere to get to and so it can give up. So life, this, is apparently happening. It's simply happening in nothing. This is a totally fundamental shift that's so simple it completely confounds the mind. It's just aliveness with no-one being alive.

It is so difficult for the mind to get around. It is impossible.

Is it? Why does it have to be totally OK?

no2, at the moment there seems to be a sort of slight background dull sense of dissatisfaction, or something being missing in the mind-body , and that is totally OK.

So you have now started telling a story; that there is dissatisfaction and that it is totally OK. So presumably it is totally OK with someone that there is dissatisfaction; that's a story.

I don't feel like I am trying to get out of that, I am just wanting to talk about it.

You are back into a story about it, things being OK. What this is saying is that all there is is what there is, including dissatisfaction. But let's hold on to that, there is dissatisfaction and then there might be the idea that that's absolutely OK. In that sense they are both what there is, but the difficulty is that the mind then links up the idea that that is totally OK with it. And this is the beginning of the whole process of story about an individual getting somewhere called being OK.

So, it is a comment, a comment on experience really.

Yes, go on.

There is some sense of dissatisfaction, loss or whatever and there is some sense of that being OK as and also there is something about that being OK to have that.

But there is something going on in there about dealing with whatever arises. In other words, whatever arises, if it is seen in a certain way as being OK, or is seen in awareness, then somewhere that deals with it.

There is an idea which is that seeing dissatisfaction as OK or being aware of it is in some way useful.

And so you have still got a businessman in there. However sophisticated that may be, there is still something dealing with what is happening, or trying to.

Right.

There is nothing to be done about that, that's what it is.

Which is also a meditative-type angle isn't it? When we see that, it's different.

There you go! Actually, Does it denote anything?, is the same thing as awareness of it, or the feeling that It's OK, we will deal with it. Does it denote anything? I have to work it out, analyse it, and then I can deal with it. There can't just be dissatisfaction!

It doesn't denote anything?

All of that is what's happening. It's just what's happening; fear, adrenaline, cup of tea, adrenaline settling down again, cigarette ,

There is definitely something of anxiety and fear here.

Directly the mind is involved, then remedies and analysis and answers to the way to deal with it arise. How can I deal with this? Fear arises - actually in timelessness - but then the mind gets hold of it and the clock starts ticking and now we've got to do something with it. A story begins; it's another story. There are billions of little stories going on about how to deal with what's happening; there is no possibility of just letting it be what it is. And in the end the dreamer is seeking a better situation, usually, or if it's pure pleasure there is also something behind it saying, How can we hold on to this? Because somewhere it is known that the pleasure won't last. Oh, can this be permanent? or It's here, isn't it wonderful, but I know somehow it's going to go soon. In separation there is a continuously meddling function. Until your life is lost you will always be meddling with it.

It feels like a remedy has to be found.

Yes.

Is that dream-thinking?

In liberation, dream-thinking happens but it is very much diminished. It still happens and it is just another appearance happening to no-one, in free fall. There is no-one taking delivery of it.

So you are saying that in liberation things just happen and there is no need to consider any of them?

There is no need to distinguish because both apparent happenings are beingness and so one is no more significant or valuable than the other. There is nothing calculating any more - that is that and this is this - it is just what it is. But in order to answer the question I'm describing it.

But you would distinguish between dream-thinking and functional thinking?

There isn't anything that is hearing, all there is is this. There is no reporting of it. It can't be known! In answering the question I am telling you what it is like; this is a description of that which is being. Dream-thinking is simply being dream-thinking. But in describing it obviously there are words you use, but in reality there is nothing reporting, because there is nothing perceiving. In other words, there is no longer a judge in there trying to work out the value, or otherwise, of a particular thought.

But what bit would actually hear all there is is this?

when there is, when somebody asks a question of nothing, nothing seems to respond and in describing the apparent situation moves back into addressing the question from the point of view of the questioner. It destroys what is behind the question but it also uses language to attempt to describe that which can't be described. Language is necessarily dualistic.

There is a tendency to think that something needs to be heard and someone needs to hear that.

No, of course not. I was just describing to somebody outside that this is so utterly spontaneous because there is nothing in there, because what is being said here basically doesn't come out of the mind; the mind isn't in this at all. This is just coming out of nothing, so there is no monitoring of it. And there is nothing in the way of what's being said. If the response was from the mind's understanding you would be getting totally different answers that would be locked into logic, story and the idea of becoming.

You don't have to mull questions over?

Yes. But it is only dangerous for the illusory individual locked in separation. There is no-one ruining an apparent dream. The ignorance of the dream of becoming is exposed.

Seems like what is going on here is very dangerous in a way because you are ruining the dream ,

There is no forward or back. Compassion is the destroyer of illusion, it isn't helping ladies over the road or helping people get through life. Compassion doesn't help the separate individual, it exposes the dream of separation and leaves freedom. Unconditional love doesn't recognise that there is a separate person who needs help , that is the freeing nature of the boundlessness that is palpable when we are together.

And we can't go back?

Yes, self-consciousness is separation, I am a separate entity.

no2, would you say that the self-consciousness and the seeker are the same thing?

It would appear to be like that, yes.

So would you say also that, in some bodies if you like, there is more self-consciousness than others?