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Well yes, that seems to be so, and what I'm suggesting is that all these things you've just described are something that's simply happening. It's being tight shoulders or being no2 ' left side. It doesn't need awareness for it to be, but the seeker thinks it does.

So it's as if we all have separate awareness.

What's also being suggested is that there isn't a here and there. It seems to the apparent entity that there is a location here and it seems as though there's a here and a there. There isn't a here and a there and those tight shoulders are simply being tight shoulders just as being this left side is being left side. It's all only beingness.

But what's happening here is slightly different to what's happening there.

Yes it certainly seems different, but it is oneness being everything and therefore appearing to be different. All of it is simply oneness arising. All of it is simply being.

But it's all lots of little different bits of information.

Nothing.

What do we do with all the bits of information coming at us all the time?

There is no-one that can do anything and there is nothing that needs to be done or known! There never has been anyone to do anything. The whole misconception that keeps us firmly in the sense of being separate is the idea that we can do anything or the idea that we need to do anything. Why do we need to do anything? There is just what's happening. It is all immaculately complete and without need.

Nothing?

Nothing, Here you go again with the obligation of having to be aware, which is a transitory state. There just is what's happening. The idea of being aware of something is a trap. Awareness needs another and is still in the story of dualism , there is no other.

So what should we be aware of then?

Yes. It certainly appears to change, but everything only seems to change or be different or apart from everything else. All of what happens is being apparently happening. So where's the constant? The constant is being, and it is nowhere and everywhere. What's happening is being arising and moving around. And beingness is all there is.

But what's happening changes; it changes from second to second. That's not constant.

None at all. There's absolutely nothing on offer here. There's no value, nothing is on offer. The most amazing thing that could arise from this is nothing. If you go out of here with something, then you're still someone with something. I now have this. This is mine to do something with. If there's a real hearing of this it will be seen that there is nothing to get or know. There will just be apparently what's happening. There's nowhere to go. There's no goal. There's no carrot. There's no prize. All there is is this. But the difference between there just being what's happening and the sense that it's happening to you is immeasurable.

Hrmn-mm. Well what's the value of knowing that?

There isn't, not because there is someone who can't do anything but because there is no-one and there is no level to get to! In that absence there are no other levels. There is only nothing and everything. What can apparently happen is the sudden realisation that already all there is is being. And in reality, that's all there is. All there is in this room is being and also what's arising is the idea that there isn't only being. But that idea that there isn't only being is also being. Yes, but there's nothing for me to do. But that would imply there's someone there that can do nothing. That's not what is being said. There isn't anyone sitting there. All there is is life happening. And there's nothing there that has ever done anything or will ever do anything. The doing is an appearance of doing.

Is there anything I can do about coming to that level of awareness or being or whatever?

I didn't. That's the whole point. I didn't. Nobody ever has. It isn't a level of understanding , it is unknowing.

So how is it that you came to this level of understanding?

This is only what's happening. There is no individual experience here and there is no intent or agenda , except in the dream of you as someone who wants something. That desire will never be satisfied here because it is recognised that there is no-one who needs help. So you want something but you won't get it. So you don't know in advance what's going to be next? No, and neither do you. You only want to believe that you can know what's going to happen next so that you can feel in control. It's a dream called me knowing, .<span class=t3>

But do you still experience yourself as an individual in that you've decided to come and give a talk and you're explaining something to us because we want something? Or is this just happening?

Yes, that's the thing, we think we can anticipate. We grow up in a world that's separate and we feel frightened about it so we try to control it. So what we do is we try to live in the known. We try to anticipate and find answers. But actually if we try to live in this known world it seems to become a bit dull. But the strange thing is that being is unknowable. What's being suggested here, and is actually happening, is totally unknowable. There is no-one in this room that has any idea what's going to happen next,

I think I do.

Yes. So you can't get rid of yourself. All the time you try to get rid of you, you are getting bigger and bigger. It's very simple, but frightening for the apparent individual.

It sounds such a simple message and yet it seems to be very difficult as well.

But what's being suggested here is that strangely, when this is heard, something can apparently happen. Because this is not a conceptual thing - there's not somebody here trying to sell a concept or trying to sell a belief. There isn't anybody here trying to sell anything. Nothing is for sale. Awakening is energetic , you grow up in a contracted state, and there is simply an explosion into the boundless. I don't know anything. It's a sudden intuitive seeing that, Yes! This is all there is. This is it. It is a remembering, a rediscovery of what already is.

Yes.

Well there's nothing that can be done about that. There's no such thing as a mind. There's a thought and a thought and a thought , and thinking likes to sit on the throne telling you that it'll get you there. It'll make you a lot of money or it'll get him to love you. It'll apparently do all sorts of things. It promises to help you with your life and it will also promise you disaster. It will tell you all those things. And the mind, thinking, is always about tomorrow. It's always going to happen tomorrow when you've meditated for long hours, or self-enquired or tried to fast or become celibate or renounce desire , it's always later on, after this or that has happened, simply because thinking apparently only functions in time, in the story of me. It is always seeking the answer but there is no answer. These days there's a lot of energy about self-enquiry. Who's making the tea? Who's driving your car? Who's sitting listening to no2 ? Who am I? Who am I? Self-enquiry can offer you a special place within yourself that is detachment , it is another spiritual lollipop. It's like being here now. People go and hear about being here now and they really work hard at being here now and it lasts sometimes for half an hour because it is simply another personal state within the story of me.

So why have a mind?

there who's in a better state. There is no-one to be in a state.

Is awakening quite disorientating?

But there won't be any one that's free, there will only be freedom. There's no-one that needs to be free. There's no-one that needs liberation.

But the sense of wanting to be free from that?

Yes. It's the mind wanting to continue and therefore create as much complication as it can in order that becoming continues. It thrives within the promise of the idea that things will get better. So, the whole idea of the person choosing to do some work on themselves is a fallacy born from the idea that there's such a thing as self-will or volition to bring about a state which is better than the present one.

no2, this spiritual physiology of chakras and third eyes and auras, is that just a story or ,?

But who is not going to be concerned any longer? All the time there is the seeking energy there is a search for something better. So this means there is no point in doing anything? No, again, that's not it either. The ideas of doing and there being a point are part of the dream of separation. There is no-one who can do anything and there's nothing to be done. Everything is already complete. It can vary. Sometimes strange energy seems to happen, sometimes nothing at all. People can wake up in the morning and it's all over. There's no-one. There's just this. It's very ordinary. This is totally ordinary and natural. What we do is impose something on it. So although it's totally ordinary it's so opposite to what has been held onto. Yes, it is. It's a total revolution. It's a revolution of 360 degrees.

So there needs to be no concern about all that stuff?

Oh, right. That's something that you want. This communication is about something that's beyond the idea of what you want , it's even beyond the idea of there being a you who wants to be free of responsibility.

I think one of the main reasons I come to these meetings is this kind of yearning to be free of a sense of responsibility and the weight of that.

The idea of being or not being responsible simply does not arise in liberation.

It sounds like what's being communicated is being without that weight of responsibility.

So, you mean it's a state that sounds better than the present one.

So it sounds as if there's a state of being that doesn't involve that. You know, getting caught up in those sorts of situations.

Liberation is better for no-one. There isn't someone.

Yes.

Well you dream you are someone who can do that.

I want to make choice.

Why would you have to make a choice?

I have to make the choice.

Ah! Absolutely, it just happens. But what you add to it is the idea that you are doing it.

I don't know. It just happens.

No, you didn't have to. There isn't anyone. Asking a question just happened.

I thought that this was beingness just asking a question. Yes it is beingness just asking the question. But I had to make a choice.

There is no you.

What did I do?

No, it just happened. The dreamer doesn't think, thinking happens , thinking arrives and we think that we are thinking. Thinking just happens and we dream we are choosing to act out of our thought.

I thought I made a choice of speaking or not speaking.

Oh, you do? So you have some ownership. Do you have a house? A flat? Maybe a flat. So do you own quite a small ego or is it semi-detached? There is no-one. No-one has an ego. This is about freedom from the idea of owning. Wouldn't it be lovely to just drop all these little bags called ego, free will and desire, and drop the person that owns them? Let them just be there. Let them just be what happens. Enjoy the utter nakedness of isness.

Well I have an ego.

You'd be left with nothing, but the strange thing is you've never had anything anyway. You only dream you do. The idea that you're a separate person arises and then you think you own something. It's a dream. It's a dream called being separate and owning things. Owning things makes you feel real. When all that's left is nothing then it is filled with everything. Liberation is absolute poverty and absolute abundance.

And what would you be left with?

Absolutely. It's the mind protecting itself and trying to get there. But the ignorance is that it thinks that there's somewhere to get to. That's the whole seeking function , something separate, you, and there's somewhere to get to. There's an approach you know, people call it the Advaita approach. How can there be an Advaita approach? Advaita means oneness, or not two, or being. How can there be an approach to being? How can there be an approach to that which already is? Approach is being. There's no-one that can approach. All there is is beingness.

A lot of the time I feel I hang on to such a dream because I'm afraid of the consequences of letting go of it. So there's sort of a thought process, the thoughts that seem to constantly go on. It feels like it's something working something out; you know, the constant chatter.

Yes, even that feeling is being feeling the need to do something in order to be. Approaching is being apparently approaching.

Including the feeling that you need to do something about it?

What I'm saying is that no-one's ever done anything and nothing's happening, so there's nothing to forgive. The whole idea that there's something to forgive presumes a relationship or a subject and an object. I am the subject, this other thing is an object that's done something to me and I can now forgive that and that will make me feel good. So the whole idea of being able to forgive somebody is the whole reinforcement of the idea of separation, of making things better , of doing a deal. So if everybody did what you're suggesting , That's the whole point. There is nobody to do anything or forgive anyone, except in the dream story.

Can you explain nothing to forgive because I've always thought that if you forgive everybody for everything then something often happens that helps.

Now you're off again on another story - if you want to play games you can go ahead and do that. I'm not interested.

Right. And if it was possible?

The apparent world would be exactly like this. It is already complete. It is actually all there is, including the idea that it isn't, including the idea that you are someone that can do something to me and I should forgive you for it. All of that is a story in the dream about there being separation and about making it a better world. If we all forgave each other it would be a better world. It's the dream of the need for something better. First of all there's no-one who can forgive anybody and also these ideas are all based on the misconception that there is anything at fault or something wrong that needs putting right. I don't know if you've noticed but it seems for thousands and thousands of years of story we appear to have put a huge amount of energy into making the world a better place. How do you think it's going so far?

I'm just wondering what the world would be like?

Well it is being arising as apparent life. So it's nothing arising as something. So all of this is simply being arising as apparently something happening. Separation is the dream that includes the idea of meaning, path and self-consciousness.

no2, if individuality is a dream, is life itself a dream?

This manifestation is both real and unreal.

OK.

Why?

I have a problem with this arising thing.

Yes, what is apparently arising is absolutely being. It looks as though it's moving in time but it's absolute stillness moving, absolute silence sounding - this voice is silence, this clapping is one hand clapping.

Because surely arising isn't being?

I'm not a non-dualist. And your anticipation of something is being apparently anticipating. And the gap is being apparently gapping! It's all there is , there is no other.

Yeah, but if something's arising then there's a gap, there's a time gap. You're anticipating something and it isn't being. All these non-dualists, including you, say there is no time.

No. Everything appears to be arising in time. There is no time, there is no arising, it's only an appearance. The idea of a future is being appearing with an idea, in this, about the future.

But this arising thing seems to put whatever this being thing is into the future.

Yes it is absolutely being. Of course it's being, appearing to move, in seeming time, to somewhere. It's being appearing to have a purpose, I have a goal to make the world a better place. All of that is simply being. It is a metaphor, a parable, a seeming reality.

OK. It's not being?

It may apparently happen or, of course, it may not apparently happen. It doesn't happen at 2pm tomorrow. There is no 2pm tomorrow. But strangely enough at 2pm tomorrow it will seem to be happening at 2pm.

I notice on the timetable you've got a talk tomorrow at 2pm, but if you can't choose and you can't influence and if there's no time there can't be tomorrow, so how's it going to happen at all?

There is no-one. There is no-one that owns a being. All there is is being. This is nothing being everything including the idea of separation and story and time. Within that being, planning and influence apparently arise.

So is that your being? You're not influencing or choosing?

It's an appearance. It's a hologram.

In some way things happen.

What you are saying perfectly expresses the power of hypnotic dreaming. That idea is based on a total misconception because actually we've never run our lives. Nobody runs their lives. You've never been in control. There is no-one. This is a very frightening message for those that believe and experience the idea of individual control.

So, I fear that what we have will fall apart if we give up running our lives.

it's apparently happening. All that you add onto it is the idea that it's happening to you and you're in control of it. The idea that you're in control of it is a dream called separation. It's a fallacy.

So it's going to happen anyway.

All action that comes out of the seeker perpetuates the dream of separation, because the seeker's only function is to find that which it longs for, and it thinks it can only find that in movement, in going forward, whereas actually what it's looking for is already being this. The inability to find oneness fuels the sense of separation.

Sometimes I'm sure you've spoken in the past about certain things that apparent seekers do that perpetuate the sense of seeking.

No, there aren't any conditions where it's more likely to be realised. It is already this. You could be drunk or sitting in a cave eating rice, it doesn't matter, because this apparent shift has absolutely nothing to do with the individual or their apparent action or state.

Are there conditions where it's more likely to be realised than other conditions?

Has no relevance at all because that's all based on the idea that there has to be a circumstance. There are no circumstances because already all there is is this. Every apparent circumstance is this. It's the mind that devises the idea that there should be a certain circumstance, then the story can continue and survival is ensured.

So the idea of coming together for the sake of hearing this ,

It is directly seen or not seen. For me, awareness is still a state in the story; there aren't states of being. There is only being and states arise in being including the state of awareness or the state of confusion. There is no such thing as half oneness.

You know how you described the kind of state when an apparent person does come to this awareness and everything's changed and turned on its head. But is there a sort of halfway house or a sliding scale of degrees of awareness, or is it all or nothing?

No, you can't be nearly being. There is only being. And somebody who is working hard on their chakras or meditating, or whatever you like, isn't someone who is getting near to being. There is only being and within that being can arise or appear to be someone who is working hard on their chakras or meditating to get somewhere.

So, to come to the realisation and the recognition of what's what - I'm trying to ascertain whether you can sort of be nearly there?

Yes, this is the nature of story.

OK. In the darkness of night it's very black and there's no light, and in the middle of the day it's very bright, and at dawn and at dusk it's kind of twilight.<span class=t3>

No. The whole world that we live in is a reflection of something that's beyond it, but the story seems to include time, the journey towards and away from life and death, light and dark. It's a parable. It's a parable about something that's beyond time, journey, paths and states of awareness and yet it includes them. Again, being is not knowable.

Can one detect the onset of awareness through a kind of twilight?

Yes. Clarity happens. But clarity isn't liberation. Clarity is something that someone can still have. There are plenty of people around these days who have been to these meetings and who have clarity about this. That has nothing to do with liberation. So there's no distinction between somebody who meets your words with utter confusion and somebody who has great clarity? No. Because this message is beyond the somebody or their understanding. Being is beyond comprehension and understanding. Understanding, comprehension, clarity, knowing and confusion arise in being. 5 So this is nothing being everything. This is being. All there is is being. And in that being, in that everything, arises separation. Human beings are the only thing in this appearance that is self-conscious. Self-consciousness is uniquely human. It's the dream. Being arises and dreams it is separate from itself and it then spends a lot of time looking all over the place for that which is everywhere. So being is all there is, self-consciousness is what arises, and the discovery that there is only being has nothing to do with the seeker. So this - what we're communicating here - has nothing to do with you or me. I haven't got something that you don't have. Being cannot be known. As a tiny child there is just pure being. Just being. And though a child cries and seems hungry, this is being, this is the expression of being simply crying saying hunger is happening. And then there comes a moment in that child's life when separation happens, when the mother maybe says to the child, You are Bill or Mary and somewhere, energetically, there's a sense of being a separate person. For the first time suddenly there's an energy that contracts into this sense of being separate and there's a feeling in the body that the skin is your limitation, that you live in that boundary, and everything else that's happening is happening outside you. So life then is happening to you and the moment that separation begins, the moment it begins, seeking begins also, because the sense of separation brings a sense of fear, inadequacy and loss. I've lost something. What is it? What have I lost? Why have I lost it? Why has this happened to me? So seeking thereafter happens, and the seeker can only function in seeking. All the time there's separation there can only be seeking for non-separation , for the need to come home. Until your life is lost you will always wonder why. We grow up in that world of separation and we meet other people who are living in that world of separation and they all are in agreement that this is a separate world. You are an individual, and you either have to make your life work, or not. That's the basic, simple lesson that is learnt when you're separate. And that whole idea of making your life work, the whole idea of getting things - getting love, getting money, getting power, getting whatever - is actually all a longing to come home. All desire is a reflection of the longing to come home. Everyone is seeking. And the difficulty is that we grow up and we believe we are individuals and we believe we have an understanding mind, probably, and so we then think that the way we can fill this sense of loss is to try and understand why there's a sense of loss and do something about it, and that's the ignorance. That's the difficulty. The whole difficulty with seeking is that the seeking fuels the separation. Seeking energises separation. So every time we try to find wholeness we're still the separate individual trying to find wholeness. We think that we can get wholeness. We think it's going to happen to us. I'm going to become enlightened - or I could become enlightened. I've heard that I can become enlightened because I've met people in the world who tell me that they are enlightened and that they did A, B and C; they meditated or they self-enquired, or something. So I can get enlightenment. But there is no such thing as an enlightened person. No person in this room will ever become enlightened. The idea of personal enlightenment is the fundamental ignorance that drives people on. The sense of separation is the whole root of seeking. And even though one's life might work for a while, underneath there's a quiet desperation and there's a drive back to find that oneness. And so we try harder and harder and harder to become enlightened but we will never become enlightened because we're working from a fundamental misconception. Awakening - what I call awakening - is awakening from a dream, and the dream is to dream of being a separate individual. It's a hypnotic, a very powerful, hypnotic dream. If you walk along Hampstead High Street and ask people they'll tell you, Yes I am an individual. I have choice and I can do things. That's the dream. And all the time that dream is happening then in a sense you're on a treadmill. You're like a dog chasing its tail. And one of the main difficulties is that the seeker has no idea of what oneness is like, and so is in a continuous state of anticipation. Awakening is an energetic happening. It's an energetic shift out of contraction into boundlessness. Liberation incidentally brings with it the realisation that all there is is everything. All there is is being. All there is is aliveness. Aliveness is being and all there is in this room right now is aliveness. Things are happening. The door bangs as somebody walks in. Sitting on a chair's happening. Hearing this voice, watching this guy waving his arms around , that's what's happening. It's life happening. This is being. This is being microphone-ing, this is being chair-ing, this is being being alive. Anything that you think is happening to you right now is not happening to you, it's simply happening. Life is simply happening. All there is is being. Nobody can teach you this. This is not a teaching. I can't teach you to sit on a chair. I can't teach you to breathe. I can't teach anybody to be because already there is only being. It's simply a shift out of the perception I am separate from what is happening to there only being what is happening. Utterly simple. When it apparently happens people come and they say, The constant perfect lover was always here. Life, being. And what is strange is that I can't tell anyone else what this is like because it cannot be known. I can't even tell you no2 what this is. So, we can talk together and share ideas and to some extent that's the superficial part of this. But energetically there's a sense of something beyond the words. I could describe it maybe as a sense that there is emptiness. It's just emptiness. There's just space sitting there. There's no-one there. There's no-one. There's just space in which things are happening. And the whole idea that you had a life, and you have a life, and you will have a life, simply falls away. The whole idea of karma, cause and effect, action, doing, paths, simply collapses. This message turns everything on its head.

At the beginning of this meeting my mind went absolutely blank and free from the idea of getting anything, and then at the end there's a recognition that this message is very clear. So, something has happened.

There's no-one, and so this is beyond engagement. Yes, that's exactly right. It's no more than sitting on that chair. So when the idea I haven't got it. I don't see it yet, comes up, that's what is happening. All is being, there is no other.

And there's nothing you can do. You can just engage with it?

it reveals that cause and effect is a dreamt idea.

If awakening is beyond cause and effect I think you were saying - beyond cause and effect - no prerequisites ,

But seeking is being. It is what's happening. All the time there's apparent seeking there is a belief and expectation of apparent cause and effect. So the whole energy of trying to approach something or seeking to find something is the energy of anticipation in time to get that which is timeless and ungettable. But, let's be clear that I am not saying seek or don't seek. I am describing the apparent dilemma for the seeker of always functioning in anticipation. The problem with the seeker is that they think they are something. I am something. I am something called a human being. And there is something else called 'enlightenment' which I've got to get. It's another something. But awakening is the realisation that what you've been looking for already is nothing and everything. It isn't a something out there. It's everything. This is it. What you're looking for is being this. It was never lost. Within being arises apparent cause and effect. So there's nothing I can do to stop seeking? There is no-one, and trying to stop seeking is seeking to stop seeking! It isn't that there's nothing you can do. There's no-one there. All there is is life. All there is is being. It's not happening to anyone. It's just being. The difficulty is that you think you're a person that has to find something. There's nothing to find. There's nothing to wait for. There's absolutely nothing to know or be aware of. This is it.

How is it then that seeking can cause it not to happen if you see what I mean? If it's beyond cause and effect, how is it that doing certain things like seeking causes it not to happen?

give me a ring when it happens. It's just totally beyond description. You don't recognise it, recognising happens. It's stunning. Sorry about that.

So how does recognising that make a difference then?

What is stunning about it is that it isn't ecstasy, it's not bliss. It's totally indescribable. Apparently it happened to somebody in France at a weekend residential. He swam halfway across a river and it happened and there was a guy swimming next to him, and he realised, There's no way I can tell that guy what this is. It's absolutely stunning, but what's surprising about it is it's totally ordinary and natural. As seekers, there's a veil between the seeker and timeless being. There's a veil of separation. It's an illusory veil but it's very powerful and we can't see through the veil. What we do is to keep on seeing everything out there. We don't realise that being is not outside or inside, above or below or before or after.

Exactly.

No. No. There's no different sense. What I see, you see. Nothing changes but everything is seen as it is.

But does it have a different sort of sensory ,

The perception is totally, fundamentally different. However, that perception arises within being.

The perception is different?

Awareness is once removed. It's still subtly dual. There's awareness of you sitting on a seat. So there are two things. The sitting on a seat and awareness of it. Liberation is totally beyond the watcher, awareness, all of that. Awareness is still an experience. And the difficulty with things like self-enquiry is that people get into this awareness but they can't stay in it, obviously, because it's still in a time-space story. It's still in a dream. It's still transient. It comes and goes. You can't stay in it. And you try to stay in it and you can't. There's only one constant - being. It never leaves. It doesn't come and it doesn't go away. And we rush round looking for it. Where is it? Where is it? You can't do being. Is anybody doing breathing? Is anybody doing sitting on a chair? You can't achieve being. Being is all there is and it speaks through the senses. The senses are shouting at you Look, here I am already. Five senses, the feelings and thinking are all beingness simply being, and seekers are looking for that which already is, which is absolutely shouting at the seeker and yet cannot be known.

no2, in my experience I notice there is something that's aware of all these things; I'm aware of thoughts coming in my head, different kinds of causes, different effects, different feelings, and yet when I'm looking to see who this me is, there is nothing. And yet, there is something that is aware of what's happening.

this is about death. You've come here to die. You paid £10 , It's quite cheap actually. This is about the dissolution of the dream of the individual. This is about the death of the separate individual.

Where does that place death then, because then there's not being?

It is what happens at physical death. At physical death all there is is liberation. Death is the end of the dream of separation of the individual. And it happens either in the body or at the happening we call death.

Yes, but not real death.

There is no-one here , you are talking to nothing.

But when you say the dream of separation goes, you're still there.

This is not anyone's body, it's being bodying.

The body's here. That's what I mean by real death. Your body is still here.

But that's the whole point which is continually ignored , there is nobody to be liberated!

But when your body or anybody's physical body goes, well there's nobody there to be liberated or not liberated anyway.

No, hold on. You didn't hear that. It's not my body. It is body. That's body happening.

OK, but,

The difference is that all the time it seems to be yours, there is a separate entity that dreams that it owns a body. When that dies it'll be suddenly realised that there is only being. That realisation is immeasurable.

But it seems to me to be mine. So whether it seems to be mine, what's the difference?

No-one.

who will realise that?

No, there will only be nothing and everything, and that is being.

Except there won't be anything there.

Absolutely. It's great fun. You know, this isn't about seeking or not seeking. What we're talking about here is totally beyond the idea of stopping seeking. Seeking is the absolute divine expression of being. So, there's nothing right or wrong with it. It is aliveness. So nobody gets it right or wrong.

So why not go on seeking?

Oh, disliking and liking still happens for no-one. Everything happens in liberation. But it isn't happening to anyone. It never did of course. Has this changed? No. There's still disliking apparent people. But is your disliking of them the same? It is no longer my dislike, it is simply dislike.

Does dislike still happen for you?

Everything is totally new. Living in this beingness, everything is totally new. There is no longer a centre that identifies with disliking.

Right. But is that different in any way from what it was?

Memory can still arise and that's another thing that is always new. Everything arises and falls away. Memory, dislike, like, all those things go on apparently happening for no-one. They're just the expression of being. They're happening in free fall.

As in like a memory of previously disliking?

Apparently , until it isn't.

But a lot of people who come to hear you talk, think that they've got this me and it's not in free fall. It's really fixed. The idea of themselves as being an individual is very fixed.

separation is totally dreamt.

Until whatever happens.

OK, so that's fine. Instead you can say it's a belief and an experience that you are a separate individual. You experience that you are separate and that's totally believed and energetically held in place.

Dream's a word I can't get hold of at all because it just sounds like Eastern talk, and I've never understood what dream ,

You can't because you believe you are separate. You believe you are a separate individual with free will and choice. It's fixed. There's no question about it. For the separate individual, there's no question I am a separate individual.

But you can't discover the thing that is the individual?

The belief and experience that there is a separate individual is no more.

But what you seem to be saying is, after awakening happened then everything still happens but it's not happening to anybody.

Oh no. It seems fixed all the time individuality is functioning.

So therefore the individual isn't fixed.

yes. But nobody unfixes it. It just is. Let's say, in simple terms, you go to bed absolutely believing the experiencing that you are an individual. And there's a waking-up the next morning - let's say - and that belief and experience is no longer there.

It's the unfixing of a fixation.

No, because you believe and experience that you are a separate individual. I am an individual. Why would you want to dissolve? It's your death.

OK. I can't make that happen?

But that's a conceptual idea! Just sharing this in a conceptual way is totally sterile. This isn't about words. This is about something completely beyond words. Words are used. But if you went on just repeating to people All there is is being. Everything is an expression of being so there's nothing to find. That's it. That would be like saying to an audience of blind people All there is is seeing. So it's not a problem you know. You can't see but all there is is seeing, so that's OK. What we are describing here is an energetic shift out of apparent separation.

Oh, because people hear about the problem being you thinking that you're an I.

I don't know. I may have done. But that's not really relevant. There isn't any one. Prior to liberation and after is just what there is. It doesn't get any better or any worse. It's just what it is.

I was just wondering if your relations with people profoundly changed when all this happened to you. Did you lose relationships or gain new ones?

Not in the sense of values or things getting better for the individual, no. Liberation is not for the individual so this is of no value to the individual. In fact, liberation is the worst thing there is for the individual because it's the end of individuality. So there's nothing to gain and everything to lose. This has lost everything and you still have you.

So nothing majorly changed?

Before this you believed that you have a motive because you have a life and it is yo<span class=t6>u doing everything , making everything happen. I have my life and I'm going to go and work every day because that will mean I'll get an income and I can pay the bills. After liberation, getting up, working and paying bills happens. Strangely enough it only ever did happen, but you add on you to it. You add on the story of you going to work.

After liberation what would make this being get up, eat, go to work etc?

Nothing changes because there is nobody and no need, except in the dream of separation.

But if there was nobody then nobody would need to go to work; nobody would need to earn money.

But who is choosing to lie down and be. There is no somebody. Nobody's ever done anything. Nobody will ever do anything. They only believe they're doing it in the dream. Lying down, standing up, eating breakfast, working, is what apparently happens, but you still believe you have to do something to make it happen , I am doing it. So being adds on a simulated me. There is no doer, there is only that which seems to happen.

To me it seems then you could just sort of lie down and just be.

That's the difficulty. That's what I'm saying - there isn't anybody that can choose to stop or start fuelling the fire and just be. There isn't anybody that has to do that. Being is just being with or without the dream of the separate entity. You, looking for being, is the expression of being. So being doesn't have any requirements. Whatever is, is unbounded, immaculate wholeness.

I haven't figured it out.

All there is is being.

When you look in a mirror, what you see isn't part of being or is it?

There isn't anything that isn't being. The mirror, the eyes, the face, the light, is being. Also the idea of you is being.

But not you actually being?

Being is seeing being. So right now being is speaking with being. But the difficulty is that you think you're a person over there and I'm another person and I'm speaking to you and you have to find being. The difficulty is that you think this is something that's happening between two separate objects. The reality is that all of this that's happening is pure being. There is only that.

But what's seeing the reflection in the mirror?

It's totally and utterly simple and that is how it is hidden from seeking, the one secret the mind cannot unravel. It's so simple it totally confuses the mind. The mind can't possibly see this. There's no way the mind can see this because the mind is locked into time and activity, anticipation and complication. There's no possibility of the mind comprehending this and, more powerfully, it fears its own demise. From the fear of death arises the need to continue which engenders and fosters the promotion of the goal-oriented teachings of becoming.

It's too simple.

There appears to be a past and the conditioning that arises. There is only timeless being appearing as that.

I can understand there being no person or no choice. What you seem to be saying is there's no past where that person has been conditioned in anything. Is that correct? There is no past?

There isn't any.

So in that sense this didn't happen. So when is the present?

This is no thing happening. There's no past, there's no future, there's no above, there's no below, there's no inner, there's no outer. There is no present moment. Show me the present moment, where can it be?

There is no present either?

Yes. They're only the dream or the belief and experience of a separate person arising in this time, goals, meaning, purpose, cause and effect, karma, past lives , all that dream story arises as this. The moment we become separate we hope for an answer so we attach to that hope the idea Oh there must be a meaning. Why is this happening? Why aren't I in paradise? Where is goodness? Why have I lost it? There must be a meaning for this life I have, so what I must do is find meaning. So we go to people who teach us meaning. We go to enlightenment masters who tell us, Yes there is a meaning. I'll teach you how to find meaning through effort, sacrifice, dedication, devotion, change, personal refinement of the body-mind or whatever other teaching of becoming.

Is that because those are concepts?