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The very examination of the mechanism shows the way. After all, your confusion is only in your mind, which never rebelled so far against confusion and never got to grips with it. It rebelled only against pain

I can see the mechanism of my confusion, but I do not see my way out of it.

Be alert. Question, observe, investigate, learn all you can about confusion, how it operates, what it does to you and others. By being clear about confusion you become clear of confusion

So, all I can do is to stay confused?

Right, build yourself a monument. How do you propose to do it?

When I look into myself, I find my strongest desire is to create a monument, to build something which will outlast me. Even when I think of a home, wife and child, it is because it is a lasting, solid, testimony to myself.

Surely, you can see for yourself that nothing is permanent. All wears out, breaks down, dissolves. The very ground on which you build gives way. What can you build that will outlast all?

It matters little what I build, as long as it is permanent.

Then you must build it of something lasting. What have you that is lasting? Neither your body nor mind will last. You must look elsewhere

Intellectually, verbally, I am aware that all is transient. Yet, somehow my heart wants permanency. I want to create something that lasts.

Are you, yourself, not permanent?

I long for permanency, but I find it nowhere.

Can you truly say you were not before you were born and can you possibly say when dead: ‘Now I am no more’? You cannot say from your own experience that you are not. You can only say ‘I am’. Others too cannot tell you ‘you are not’

I was born, I shall die.

Before you make such sweeping statements, examine carefully your waking state. You will soon discover that it is full of gaps, when the min blanks out. Notice how little you remember even when fully awake. You just don’t remember. A gap in memory is not necessarily a gap in consciousness

There is no ‘I am’ in sleep.

Of course! By eliminating the intervals of inadvertence during your waking hours you will gradually eliminate the long interval of absent-mindedness, which you call sleep. You will be aware that you are asleep

Can I make myself remember my state of deep sleep?

Permanency is a mere idea, born of the action of time. Time again depends of memory. By permanency you mean unfailing memory through endless time. You want to eternalise the mind, which is not possible

Yet, the problem of permanency, of continuity of being, is not solved.

That which does not change with time. You cannot eternalise a transient thing — only the changeless is eternal

Then what is eternal?

You can have for the asking all the peace you want

I am familiar with the general sense of what you say. I do not crave for more knowledge. All I want is peace.

You must ask with an undivided heart and live an integrated life

I am asking.

Detach yourself from all that makes your mind restless. Renounce all that disturbs its peace. If you want peace, deserve it

How?

Those only deserve it, who don't disturb it

Surely everybody deserves peace.

By being a slave to your desires and fears

In what way do I disturb peace?

Emotional reactions, born of ignorance or inadvertence, are never justified. Seek a clear mind and a clean heart. All you need is to keep quietly alert, enquiring into the real nature of yourself. This is the only way to peace

Even when they are justified?

Which world are you enquiring about?

Some say the universe was created. Others say that it always existed and is for ever undergoing transformation. Some say it is subject to eternal laws. Others deny even causality. Some say the world is real. Others — that it has no being whatsoever.

The world you can perceive is a very small world indeed. And it is entirely private. Take it to be a dream and be done with it

The world of my perceptions, of course.

How long will your own world last?

How can I take it to be a dream? A dream does not last.

Is not the idea of a total world a part of your personal world? The universe does not come to tell you that you are a part of it. It is you who have invented a totality to contain you as a part. In fact all you know is your own private world, however well you have furnished it with your imaginations and expectations

After all, my little world is but a part of the total.

What else? Perception is recognition, is it not? Something entirely unfamiliar can be sensed, but cannot be perceived. Perception involves memory

Surely, perception is not imagination!

Perception, imagination, expectation, anticipation, illusion — all are based on memory. There are hardly any border lines between them. They just merge into each other. All are responses of memory

Granted, but memory does not make it illusion.

How much do you remember? Try to write down from memory what you were thinking, saying and doing on the 30th of the last month

Still, memory is there to prove the reality of my world.

It is not so bad. You do remember a lot — unconscious memory makes the world in which you live so familiar

Yes, there is a blank.

My world is just like yours. I see, I hear, I feel, I think, I speak and act in a world I perceive, just like you. But with you it is all, with me it is nothing. Knowing the world to be a part of myself, I pay it no more attention than you pay to the food you have eaten. While being prepared and eaten, the food is separate from you and your mind is on it; once swallowed, you become totally unconscious of it. I have eaten up the world and I need not think of it any more

Admitted that the world in which I live is subjective and partial. What about you? In what kind of world do you live?

How could I? How can I hurt something which is one with me. On the contrary, without thinking of the world, whatever I do will be of benefit to it. Just as the body sets itself right unconsciously, so am I ceaselessly active in setting the world right

Don’t you become completely irresponsible?

Of course I am, much more than you are

Nevertheless, you are aware of the immense suffering of the world?

I look at it through the eyes of God and find that all is well

Then what do you do?

All these sufferings are man-made and it is within man's power to put an end to them. God helps by facing man with the results of his actions and demanding that the balance should be restored. Karma is the law that works for righteousness; it is the healing hand of God

How can you say that all is well? Look at the wars, the exploitation, the cruel strife between the citizen and the state.

Do you deserve what you desire? In some way or other you have to work for the fulfilment of your desires. Put in energy and wait for the results

I am full of desires and want them fulfilled. How am I to get what I want?

Desire itself is energy

Where am I to get the energy?

Maybe it was not strong enough and lasting

Then why does not every desire get fulfilled?

When your desire is not clear nor strong, it cannot take shape. Besides, if your desires are personal, for your own enjoyment, the energy you give them is necessarily limited; it can-not be more than what you have

Yes, that is my problem. I want things, but I am lazy when it comes to action.

After desiring it very much and for a long time. Even then, their achievements are limited

Yet, often ordinary persons do attain what they desire.

When you desire the common good, the whole world de-sires with you. Make humanity's desire your own and work for it. There you cannot fail

And what about unselfish desires?

Desires are right or wrong according to circumstances; it depends on how you look at them. It is only for the individual that a distinction between right and wrong is valid

Humanity is God’s work, not mine. I am concerned with myself. Have I not the right to see my legitimate desires fulfilled? They will hurt no one. My desires are legitimate. They are right desires, why don’t they come true?

In your case desires that lead to sorrow are wrong and those which lead to happiness are right. But you must not forget others. Their sorrow and happiness also count

What are the guide-lines for such distinction? How am I to know which of my desires are right and which are wrong?

Use your mind. Remember. Observe. You are not different from others. Most of their experiences are valid for you too. Think clearly and deeply, go into the entire structure of your desires and their ramifications. They are a most important part of your mental and emotional make-up and powerfully affect your actions. Remember, you cannot abandon what you do not know. To go beyond yourself, you must know yourself

Results are in the future. How can I know what they will be?

All that you are not

What does it mean to know myself? By knowing myself what exactly do I come to know?

What you are, you already are. By knowing what you are not, you are free of it and remain in your own natural state. It all happens quite spontaneously and effortlessly

And not what I am?

You discover that there is nothing to discover. You are what you are and that is all

And what do I discover?

It is your fixed idea that you must be something or other, that blinds you

I do not understand!

If you trust me, believe when I tell you that you are the pure awareness that illuminates consciousness and its infinite content. Realise this and live accordingly. If you do not believe me, then go within, enquiring ‘What an I’? or, focus your mind on ‘I am’, which is pure and simple being

How can I get rid of this idea?

On your insight into other people’s hearts. If you cannot look into my heart, look into your own

On what my faith in you depends?

Purify yourself by a well-ordered and useful life. Watch over your thoughts, feelings, words and actions. This will clear your vision

I can do neither.

You cannot renounce. You may leave your home and give trouble to your family, but attachments are in the mind and will not leave you until you know your mind in and out. First thing first — know yourself, all else will come with it

Must I not renounce every thing first, and live a homeless life?

Of course you are the Supreme Reality! But what of it? Every grain of sand is God; to know it is important, but that is only the beginning

But you already told me that I am the Supreme Reality. Is it not self-knowledge?

I told you already. Discover all you are not. Body, feelings, thoughts, ideas, time, space, being and not-being, this or that — nothing concrete or abstract you can point out to is you. A mere verbal statement will not do — you may repeat a formula endlessly without any result whatsoever. You must watch your-self continuously — particularly your mind — moment by moment, missing nothing. This witnessing is essential for the separation of the self from the not-self

Well, you told me that I am the Supreme Reality. I believe you. What next is there for me to do?

For witnessing, there must be something else to witness. We are still in duality!

The witnessing — is it not my real nature?

Putting words together will not take you far. Go within and discover what you are not. Nothing else matters

What about witnessing the witness? Awareness of awareness?

I am aware of being asleep

What do you do when asleep?

Yes, I am aware of being unconscious

Is not sleep a state of unconsciousness?

I am aware of being awake or dreaming

And when awake, or dreaming?

Well, it is about the same with me, Yet, there seems to be a difference. In each state you forget the other two, while to me, there is but one state of being, including and transcending the three mental states of waking, dreaming and sleeping

I do not catch you. What exactly do you mean? Let me make my terms clear: by being asleep I mean unconscious, by being awake I mean conscious, by dreaming I mean conscious of one’s mind, but not of the surroundings.

The world is but a reflection of my imagination. Whatever I want to see, I can see. But why should I invent patterns of creation, evolution and destruction? I do not need them and have no desire to lock up the world in a mental picture

Do you see in the world a direction and a purpose?

Of course

Coming back to sleep. Do you dream?

Echoes of the waking state

What are your dreams?

The brain consciousness is suspended

And your deep sleep?

Unconscious of my surroundings — yes

Are you then unconscious?

I remain aware that I am unconscious

Not quite unconscious?

Awareness is primordial; it is the original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused, unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is relative to its content; consciousness is always of something. Consciousness is partial and changeful, awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is the common matrix of every experience

You use the words 'aware' and 'conscious'. Are they not the same?

Since it is awareness that makes consciousness possible, there is awareness in every state of consciousness. Therefore the very consciousness of being conscious is already a movement in awareness. Interest in your stream of consciousness takes you to awareness. It is not a new state. It is at once recognised as the original, basic existence, which is life itself, and also love and joy

How does one go beyond consciousness into awareness?

Realisation is but the opposite of ignorance. To take the world as real and one’s self as unreal is ignorance. The cause of sorrow. To know the self as the only reality and all else as temporal and transient is freedom, peace and joy. It is all very simple. Instead of seeing things as imagined, learn to see them as they are. It is like cleansing a mirror. The same mirror that shows you the world as it is, will also show you your own face. The thought 'I am' is the polishing cloth. Use it

Since reality is all the time with us, what does self-realisation consist of?

I met my Guru when I was 34 and realised by 37

Kindly tell us how you realised.

Pleasure and pain lost their sway over me. I was free from desire and fear. I found myself full, needing nothing. I saw that in the ocean of pure awareness, on the surface of the universal consciousness, the numberless waves of the phenomenal worlds arise and subside beginninglessly and endlessly. As consciousness, they are all me. As events they are all mine. There is a mysterious power that looks after them. That power is awareness, Self, Life, God, whatever name you give it. It is the foundation, the ultimate support of all that is, just like gold is the basis for all gold jewellery. And it is so intimately ours! Abstract the name and shape from the jewellery and the gold becomes obvious. Be free of name and form and of the desires and fears they create, then what remains?

What happened? What was the change?

Yes, the void remains. But the void is full to the brim. It is the eternal potential as consciousness is the eternal actual

Nothingness.

Past, present and future — they are all there. And infinitely more

By potential you mean the future?

How can you say so? Without breach in continuity how can there be rebirth? Can there be renewal without death? Even the darkness of sleep is refreshing and rejuvenating. Without death we would have been bogged up for ever in eternal senility

But since the void is void, it is of little use to us.

When life and death are seen as essential to each other, as two aspects of one being, that is immortality. To see the end in the beginning and beginning in the end is the intimation of eternity. Definitely, immortality is not continuity. Only the process of change continues. Nothing lasts

Is there no such thing as immortality?

Awareness is not of time. Time exists in consciousness only. Beyond consciousness where are time and space?

Awareness lasts?

Of course. But the idea 'my body', as different from other bodies, is not there. To me it is 'a body', not 'my body', 'a mind', not 'my mind'. The mind looks after the body all right, I need not interfere. What needs be done is being done, in the normal and natural way. You may not be quite conscious of your physiological functions, but when it comes to thoughts and feelings, desires and fears you become acutely self-conscious. To me these too are largely unconscious. I find myself talking to people, or doing things quite correctly and appropriately, without being very much conscious of them. It looks as if I live my physical, waking life automatically, reacting spontaneously and accurately.

Within the field of your consciousness there is your body also.

Both. Devotion to you goal makes you live a clean and orderly life, given to search for truth and to helping people, and realisation makes noble virtue easy and spontaneous, by removing for good the obstacles in the shape of desires and fears and wrong ideas

Does this spontaneous response come as a result of realisation, or by training?

My destiny was to be born a simple man, a commoner, a humble tradesman, with little of formal education. My life was the common kind, with common desires and fears. When, through my faith in my teacher and obedience to his words, I realised my true being, I left behind my human nature to look after itself, until its destiny is exhausted. Occasionally an old reaction, emotional or mental, happens in the mind, but it is at once noticed and discarded. After all, as long as one is bur-dened with a person, one is exposed to its idiosyncrasies and habits

Don’t you have desires and fears any more?

I am dead already

Are you not afraid of death?

I am double dead. Not only am I dead to my body, but to my mind too

In what sense?

That’s what you say! You seem to know my state better than I do!

Well, you do not look dead at all!

A tremendously complex work is going on all the time in your brain and body, are you conscious of it? Not at all. Yet for an outsider all seems to be going on intelligently and purposefully. Why not admit that one’s entire personal life may sink largely below the threshold of consciousness and yet proceed sanely and smoothly?

Sorry. But I just do not understand. You say you are bodyless and mindless, while I see you very much alive and articulate.

What is normal? Is your life — obsessed by desires and fears, full of strife and struggle, meaningless and joyless — normal? To be acutely conscious of your body id it normal? To be torn by feelings, tortured by thoughts: is it normal? A healthy body, a healthy mind live largely unperceived by their owner; only occasionally, through pain or suffering they call for attention and insight. Why not extend the same to the entire personal life? One can function rightly, responding well and fully to whatever happens, without having to bring it into the focus of awareness. When self-control becomes second nature, awareness shifts its focus to deeper levels of existence and action

Is it normal?

What harm is there in making automatic, what is habitual and repetitive? It is automatic anyhow. But when it is also chaotic, it causes pain and suffering and calls for attention. The entire purpose of a clean and well-ordered life is to liberate man from the thraldom of chaos and the burden of sorrow

Don’t you become a robot?

What is wrong with a life which is free from problems? Personality is merely a reflection of the real. Why should not the reflection be true to the original as a matter of course, automatically? Need the person have any designs of its own? The life of which it is an expression will guide it. Once you realise that the person is merely a shadow of the reality, but not reality itself, you cease to fret and worry. You agree to be guided from within and life becomes a journey into the unknown

You seem to be in favour of a computerised life.

It is all a matter of focus. Your mind is focussed in the world, mine is focussed in reality. It is like the moon in daylight — when the sun shines, the moon is hardly visible. Or, watch how you take your food. As long as it is in your mouth, you are conscious of it; once swallowed, it does not concern you any longer. It would be troublesome to have it constantly in mind until it is eliminated. The mind should be normally in abeyance — incessant activity is a morbid state. The universe works by itself — that I know. What else do I need to know?

From what you told us it appears that you are not quite conscious of your surroundings. To us you seem extremely alert and active. We cannot possibly believe that you are in a kind of hypnotic state, which leaves no memory behind. On the contrary, your memory seems excellent. How are we to understand your statement that the world and all it includes does not exist, as far as you are concerned.

The average man is not conscious of his body as such. He is conscious of his sensations, feelings and thoughts. Even these, once detachment sets in, move away from the centre of consciousness and happen spontaneously and effortlessly

So a jnani knows what he is doing only when he turns his mind to it; otherwise he just acts, without being concerned.

That which cannot be given name and form, for it is without quality and beyond consciousness. You may say it is a point in consciousness, which is beyond consciousness. Like a hole in the paper is both in the paper and yet not of paper, so is the supreme state in the very centre of consciousness, and yet beyond consciousness. It is as if an opening in the mind through which the mind is flooded with light. The opening is not even the light. It is just an opening

What then is in the centre of consciousness?

Quite so. From the mind's point of view, it is but an opening for the light of awareness to enter the mental space. By itself the light can only be compared to a solid, dense, rocklike, homogeneous and changeless mass of pure awareness, free from the mental patterns of name and shape

An opening is just void, absence.

The supreme gives existence to the mind. The mind gives existence to the body

Is there any connection between the mental space and the supreme abode?

Take an example. A venerable Yogi, a master in the art of longevity, himself over 1000 years old, comes to teach me his art. I fully respect and sincerely admire his achievements, yet all I can tell him is: of what use is longevity to me? I am beyond time. However long a life may be, it is but a moment and a dream. In the same way I am beyond all attributes. They appear and disappear in my light, but cannot describe me. The universe is all names and forms, based on qualities and their differences, while I am beyond. The world is there because I am, but I am not the world

And what lies beyond?

That's what you say! I know there is a world, which includes this body and this mind, but I do not consider them to be more “mine” than other minds and bodies. They are there, in time and space, but I am timeless and spaceless

But you are living in the world!

I am neither the potentiality nor the actualisation, nor the actuality of things. In my light they come and go as the specks of dust dancing in the sunbeam. The light illumines the specks, but does not depend on them. Nor can it be said to create them. It cannot be even said to know them

But since all exists by your light, are you not the creator of the world?

In reality I am neither hearing nor answering. In the world of events the question happens and the answer happens. Nothing happens to me. Everything just happens

I am asking you a question and you are answering. Are you conscious of the question and the answer?

What does witness mean? Mere knowledge. It rained and now the rain is over. I did not get wet. I know it rained, but I am not affected. I just witnessed the rain

And you are the witness?

That in which consciousness happens, the universal consciousness or mind, we call the ether of consciousness. All the objects of consciousness form the universe. What is beyond both, supporting both, is the supreme state, a state of utter stillness and silence. Whoever goes there, disappears. It is unreachable by words, or mind. You may call it God, or Parabrahman, or Supreme Reality, but these are names given by the mind. It is the nameless, contentless, effortless and spontaneous state, beyond being and not being

The fully realised man, spontaneously abiding in the supreme state, appears to eat, drink and so on. Is he aware of it, or not?

As the universe is the body of the mind, so is consciousness the body of the supreme. It is not conscious, but it gives rise to consciousness

But does one remain conscious?

On the level of consciousness — yes. In the supreme state, no. This state is entirely one and indivisible, a single solid block of reality. The only way of knowing it is to be it. The mind cannot reach it. To perceive it does not need the senses; to know it, does not need the mind

In my daily actions much goes by habit, automatically. I am aware of the general purpose, but not of each movement in detail. As my consciousness broadens and deepens, details tend to recede, leaving me free for the general trends. Does not the same happens to a jnani, but more so?

God is not running the world

That is how God runs the world.

Nobody. All happens by itself. You are asking the question and you are supplying the answer. And you know the answer when you ask the question. All is a play in consciousness. All divisions are illusory. You can know the false only. The true you must yourself be

Then who is doing it?

There are the two — the person and the witness, the observer. When you see them as one, and go beyond, you are in the supreme state. It is not perceivable, because it is what makes perception possible. It is beyond being and not being. It is neither the mirror nor the image in the mirror. It is what is — the timeless reality, unbelievably hard and solid

There is the witnessed consciousness and there is the witnessing consciousness. Is the second the supreme?

He is the Supreme, of course, but he can also be viewed as the universal witness

The jnani — is he the witness or the Supreme?

When you believe yourself to be a person, you see persons everywhere. In reality there are no persons, only threads of memories and habits. At the moment of realisation the person ceases. Identity remains, but identity is not a person, it is inherent in the reality itself. The person has no being in itself; it is a reflection in the mind of the witness, the 'I am', which again is a mode of being

But he remains a person?

Neither conscious nor unconscious, I am telling you from experience

Is the Supreme conscious?