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---
layout: transcript
interviewee: charles none bruml
rg_number: rg-50.030.0042
pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0042_trs_en.pdf
ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn506766
gender: m
birth_date: none
birth_year: 1910.0
place_of_birth: prague
country: czechoslovakia
experience_group: survivor
ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: theresienstadt
ghetto: none
camp(s)_encyclopedia: auschwitz,bergen-belsen
camp: none
non_ss_camp: none
region: none
needs_research: none
data_entry: cl
accession: 1990.344.1
revisit: none
tags: transcripts
---
---
layout: transcript
interviewee: charles none bruml
rg_number: rg-50.030.0042
pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0042_trs_en.pdf
ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn506766
gender: m
birth_date: none
birth_year: 1910.0
place_of_birth: prague
country: czechoslovakia
experience_group: survivor
ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: theresienstadt
ghetto: none
camp(s)_encyclopedia: auschwitz,bergen-belsen
camp: none
non_ss_camp: none
region: none
needs_research: none
data_entry: cl
accession: 1990.344.1
revisit: none
tags: transcripts
---
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1">Q: Just tell us your name and where your born and what yout....</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3">A: Born in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Prague</span>, <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span>--which was a main <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> in <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4">I went to <span class="BUILDING">school</span> there.</sentence><sentence id="5">My father had...he was quite in a in a way quite, behaved like American because he changed many different, during his life, his...his profession.</sentence><sentence id="6">Uh he started in in a small small <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> in southern Bohe...southern Bohemia, went to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Prague</span>.</sentence><sentence id="7">And in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Prague</span>, he had--I don't...I don't recall anymore how many different uh profession, but he he had a small <span class="BUILDING">factory</span>, <span class="BUILDING">shoe factory</span>.</sentence><sentence id="8">There were probably some four of those as I remember or five, which he did something like many Americans do.</sentence><sentence id="9">He moved around and tried to improve himself.</sentence><sentence id="10">And my my mother uh lived in a...was born in a small <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> just the same as my father.</sentence><sentence id="11">And they came to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Prague</span>, because generally all the Jews all over the world, they tried to go to improve themselves.</sentence><sentence id="12">They don't stay in in small <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">towns</span>, but they go to the main <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>.</sentence><sentence id="13">So therefore <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Prague</span> was a main <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> when so many Jews existed, and under quite good conditions.</sentence><sentence id="14">Because it was a first Czech president who--there was a famous case against the Jews, and uh he did uh defend it.</sentence><sentence id="15">It was, uh, Herzna (ph) case.</sentence><sentence id="16">He was accused, I mean uh he was accused that he was using blood to make to matzahs, and he defended him.</sentence><sentence id="17">And later on, it was...it was uh... He won, of course; but uh later on also he was quite uh popular as a uh as a as defender of <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span>, uh of <span class="COUNTRY">Bohemia</span>, because at that time it still belonged to <span class="COUNTRY">Austria-Hungary</span>.</sentence><sentence id="18">And uh later on, he became the president; and he was liked by by the whole population.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="35">Q: What was __ for the Jewish community in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Prague</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="37">A: The <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish community</span> at that time, of course they didn't have the same kind of privileges, officially uh under <span class="COUNTRY">Austra-Hungary</span> it was of course if somebody would change his religion, they could become in the military a general or something like that, but the religion was quite important.</sentence><sentence id="38">Under <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span>, under ...this was under...after 1918, uh the population whether they were Jewish or Christian, they were all equal.</sentence><sentence id="39">Of course, like everywhere else, there were certain anti-Semitic behav...it was some certain anti-Semitic behavior.</sentence><sentence id="40">They...they were not allowed to do some small thing; but in the long-run, there was, it was quite uh good society.</sentence><sentence id="41">I mean, toward to some in in a way uh the republic - I am sorry, I should have mentioned the the <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia Republic</span> was uh really under, was uh established not only under President Masaryk, but also uh who was another uh father of the <span class="COUNTRY">country</span>, was uh was uh was uh President Wilson of <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="47">Q: As we learn more about the time that you're speaking of, and how was your family living through this early period before the war?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class=""><p></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="52">A: Quite well, and the Jews did imp...did improve everywhere.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="54">Q: And in your particular family, did you have a sister or....?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="56">A: I...1 did have a sister and brother.</sentence><sentence id="57">My sister went to <span class="BUILDING">schools</span>, of course; and my uh my uh...when the, when the Germans came she was already about 19 years old.</sentence><sentence id="58">She had some <span class="BUILDING">business school</span>.</sentence><sentence id="59">And my brother studied uh on the <span class="BUILDING">University</span> to become a lawyer.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="64">Q: OK.</sentence><sentence id="65">Now you mentioned when the Germans came.</sentence><sentence id="66">Could you tell us a little about your memory of when the Germans came?</sentence><sentence id="67">Where you were for example?</sentence><sentence id="68">How old you were?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="74">What you were doing?</sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="75">A: At at that time the uh (ph) in the town of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.133" long="11.567">Munich</span>.</sentence><sentence id="76">Before <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.133" long="11.567">Munich</span>, the...our situation was: neither the French, nor...nor the uh...nor the British, they didn't uh somehow...They...they considered <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span> as a small state, and there was no reason for them uh to interfere.</sentence><sentence id="77">They tried to save the world of World War.</sentence><sentence id="78">Which is something.</sentence><sentence id="79">I mean, this is known of course today through radio.</sentence><sentence id="80">So everybody knows how...how <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.133" long="11.567">Munich</span> developed and what they had.</sentence><sentence id="81">But the first time <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span> had tried to defend them...uh to to defend itself.</sentence><sentence id="82">Later on, it was...and when it was visible the Germans were going to help <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span> uh they uh the Czech were very easily taken over by by German, by <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span>.</sentence><sentence id="83">Who...it was in the morning, perhaps, when I saw the...under the <span class="DLF">windows</span> where of our <span class="BUILDING">house</span> marching soldiers, these were German soldiers in these... Uh, prepared to shoot anybody who would would run or would try to to do uh to to defend <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span>.</sentence><sentence id="84">Now, of course, some people were killed; but in the long-run not that much happened.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="96">Q: But that was 1938.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="98">A: Yes.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="100">Q: Can you...how old were you at that time?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="102">A: Uh, was some 20, 29.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="104">Q: And what were you doing for your livelihood at that time?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="106">A: At...at that time I was working in a uh for a firm which uh they were in ex...import and export different products to in Europe and bringing again other things in.</sentence><sentence id="107">But I was also schooled as a painter; so this was my second profession.</sentence><sentence id="108">And what really happened, something what used to be a second profession...or really uh just uh it it was it was... Uh, pardon me...(stuttering) It was - I have to study - I think now uh this was my second profession; and now the second profession became the first profession.</sentence><sentence id="109">Because when they came, I got uh a group of people who who used to, uh whom I knew, they started to to paint uh pictures for for some Swiss uh company.</sentence><sentence id="110">Those pictures were pretty ugly but</sentence><sentence id="112">anyhow it was a hand-made product that and then I did something for for my and for myself I was painting cause uh for some company - uh it was a <span class="BUILDING">book store</span> and a uh and a <span class="BUILDING">factory</span> - it it was a <span class="BUILDING">book store</span> where where they were selling there pictures and ...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="122">Q: During that time, were there any difficulties that you and your family experienced?</sentence><sentence id="123">This was after the German occupation in 1938.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="126">A: There were not too many difficulties.</sentence><sentence id="127">Only the difficulties were those that were imposed by the Ger...by the German that we couldn't walk after after six or after six or eight o'clock.</sentence><sentence id="128">I don't recall anymore.</sentence><sentence id="129">In the evening we couldn't go to the <span class="DLF">parks</span> because the <span class="DLF">parks</span> were not allowed for Jews and dogs of course and uh the the population remained of course the population I mean the Jewish population couldn't go around and buy uh uh whatever they would need immediately.</sentence><sentence id="130">They had to go after certain hours which, and there was the the best meats or what best products were sold out, then they could come and and buy whatever there was necessary.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="136">Q: But during this period of time - this was 1938 and "39...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="138">A: Right.</sentence><sentence id="139">Right.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="142">Q: What happened, then, to change that experience?</sentence><sentence id="143">When did the difficulties begin...?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="146">A: The...the difficulties started immediately because when the German came the main thing was that uh we have to deliver radios, perhaps so we couldn't hear - we we wouldn't be informed what's happening.</sentence><sentence id="147">Then of course we had to uh of course not everybody had to uh obey.</sentence><sentence id="148">Of course if you were caught you went to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">concentration camp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="149">I used to go always in the evening to my friend who had a radio and listen there.</sentence><sentence id="150">What we did we listen uh uh radio uh uh radio London and uh then what was also prohibited uh to possession of gold and silver and so on.</sentence><sentence id="151">What my father did, he bought some very cheap pieces of uh...of uh rings, and so on; and then, even those and the good one, he kept.</sentence><sentence id="152">It was uh...of course, it was again prohibited very severely; but uh what happened that uh our maid saved most of the gold.</sentence><sentence id="153">And...but what we had in gold or uh uh precious stone and so on, by uh...by the maid.</sentence><sentence id="154">And uh uh so ...so she kept everything until the end of the uh...until the end of the war.</sentence><sentence id="155">Then I came back, and I got it back again from her.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="166">Q: But let's go back now to the time that uh we were speaking of before and please tell us about how you and your family were taken to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>?</sentence><sentence id="167">What was the circumstance of that...?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="170">A: The circumstances uh it was it was decided by the Jewish leadership - I don't anymore recall the official name of it - which families should go.</sentence><sentence id="171">They get their numbers and uh they left uh there <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Prague</span>.</sentence><sentence id="172">Of course it was very often also happened that uh like in everything certain people had a priority to go and or not to go.</sentence><sentence id="173">But the those things do happen.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="184">Q: And in your case, could you tell us how it happened?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="186">A: Yes.</sentence><sentence id="187">Uh we we got uh we got uh asked to to be to be prepared to have certain uh certain amount of luggage what we can carry with us.</sentence><sentence id="188">I think it was like forty kilos, something like that.</sentence><sentence id="189">And uh to be in in - it was a big <span class="BUILDING">building</span> and there the uh uh - I don't know, recall any more the name uh the name of it.</sentence><sentence id="190">Anyhow, we stayed there overnight, I think for two days - I I don't recall any more.</sentence><sentence id="191">And then we were then we left by <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> to to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.511" long="14.151">Theresienstadt</span> [NB: <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Terezin</span>].</sentence><sentence id="192">It was not everybody.</sentence><sentence id="193">My...my brother, he married at that time.</sentence><sentence id="194">He stayed still in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Prague</span>.</sentence><sentence id="195">Uh my father, mother and sister--we left for <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.511" long="14.151">Theresienstadt</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="206">Q: Do you remember when that was?</sentence><sentence id="207">Not precisely the date, no not precisely the date, but more or less - was it in the wintertime?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="210">A: It was...it was in wintertime.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="212">Q: And when you got to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.511" long="14.151">Theresienstadt</span>, what what did you think of the entry?</sentence><sentence id="213">What impressed you?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="216">A: At that time, uh we were just what we uh we just carried our <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">luggage</span>.</sentence><sentence id="217">And we were actually quite uh happy that we were allowed to have uh that amount of <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">luggage</span>, what it was allowed to take with us.</sentence><sentence id="218">Uh, it was decided also by... I was...by sheer luck, I...I got to a into a barra...Pardon me.</sentence><sentence id="219">I should say that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.511" long="14.151">Theresienstadt</span> was <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>, and there were <span class="BUILDING">military barracks</span>; and I uh, by sheer incident [NB: accident], these many... Uh, the men were separated far from women.</sentence><sentence id="220">And I got to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.133741" long="11.700878">Magdeburg</span> uh <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span>, and uh it was quite close where our <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> where I was.</sentence><sentence id="221">And I uh was very close where the main leadership of the...of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.511" long="14.151">Theresienstadt</span> lived.</sentence><sentence id="222">I uh the my my first occupation where I did, what I what I did, I joined uh OD.</sentence><sentence id="223">This was Ordnung Name (ph), or something like that.</sentence><sentence id="224">It was something like a police.</sentence><sentence id="225">It was not a ghetto police.</sentence><sentence id="226">It...it was a separate thing.</sentence><sentence id="227">This...this one was only kind of an organization.</sentence><sentence id="228">We should worry that people would work uh on the in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span> in proper way or just a small...it was a...it was not the police, but something similar.</sentence><sentence id="229">Uh, luckily that I was...I got a <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> where uh where there was a uh (pause) the leadership of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp -</span> there there was at that time there was leader of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp,</span> of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.511" long="14.151">Theresienstadt</span> was [Dr. Jacob] Edelstein, and he went probably uh and also uh... Pardon me, I was where at the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span> [wahe (ph)] it was winter, a very severe winter, and we we had to stand there for many hours in the uh uh in the <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span>.</sentence><sentence id="230">Of course, the water was cold, and it was a very unpleasant situation.</sentence><sentence id="231">Luckily I, one day I was standing there.</sentence><sentence id="232">And which is a transport going through, I uh I met my again my uncle uh Fishel (ph), who who was an engineer.</sentence><sentence id="233">He got into the uh in in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.511" long="14.151">Theresienstadt</span> by because he...as an engineer, he built railroads.</sentence><sentence id="234">And at that time, there was nobody else above him as a specialist in that <span class="DLF">field</span>; and uh he got to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.511" long="14.151">Theresienstadt</span> in a separate <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagon</span> with all his possession.</sentence><sentence id="235">And he helped me to get in in the Technical Department, which was... Technical Department!</sentence><sentence id="236">was a group of about uh a hundred painters, mainly hund...hundred.</sentence><sentence id="237">It was " This was probably the Aufbaukommando.</sentence><sentence id="240">about engineers, main... mainly these uh engineers and painters and draftsmen.</sentence><sentence id="241">So would...would be there in a way considered draftsmen and painters together; and uh uh what my job was to uh to uh to prepare everyday statistics...take statistics take for the Kommandatur to uh... These were uh...we had to...on small strips, we had to write down how many people did receive certain amount of food, how much and so on.</sentence><sentence id="242">Uh, statistics also who died, who didn't die, how many are living and under what condition and so on.</sentence><sentence id="243">Just statistics.</sentence><sentence id="244">But besides that, what we did: we painted.</sentence><sentence id="245">This was allowed by the...by the Germans.</sentence><sentence id="246">Nobody didn't know exactly why it was allowed, but it was.</sentence><sentence id="247">And many of those things which I at that time done were not pleasing to the Germans of course, but they didn't object.</sentence><sentence id="248">Un later on many of those <span class="NPIP">things</span> were hidden but uh at that time it it it was alright.</sentence><sentence id="249">The statistics had to be delivered and everyday on the German Komandatur; and uh at the time the the leader of the the German main, the uh the uh how could I say, the main leader of the Germans was uh was Seidl.</sentence><sentence id="250">But the uh unpleasant thing was delivering all of the of the strips, the statistics to the Kommandatur, to uh... And...and what happened one day, uh about seven people were called because uh they either got from <span class="NPIP">outside</span> some cigarettes, or they wrote letters.</sentence><sentence id="251">And those seven people were uh were hung.</sentence><sentence id="252">And uh I had at that time...in the morning, I... had to deliver the numbers with uh the uh uh Jewish leader, Edelstein, to the Kommandatur and uh and delivered those numbers.</sentence><sentence id="253">You had to push them in the opening of the...you know, he had just a on the <span class="DLF">wall</span>; and, of course, the Germans were mad at us.</sentence><sentence id="254">I expect they were kicked us out, out of the Kommandatur.</sentence><sentence id="255">But there were other uh quite interesting things which were happening in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span> which are probably known today to everybody, uh that uh that the uh what they were concert given, they were uh they were also uh... What I want to say?</sentence><sentence id="256">Besides that, there were other different cultural things happening.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="301">Q: Could you tell us a little about the paintings that you were making, and those that your colleagues were making?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="303">A: The paintings uh actually today exist in...in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.511" long="14.151">Theresienstadt</span>.</sentence><sentence id="304">A whole department, a <span class="BUILDING">museum</span>, where they where they are showing all...all..many of those paintings which were saved among the people who (ph), and [Bed_ich] Fritta and [Otto] Ungar, and others who became to the... Under <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span>, they became national painters.</sentence><sentence id="305">They were, of course, uh my, my... Pardon me, uh my father worked at that time also in the <span class="INT_SPACE">kitchen</span>.</sentence><sentence id="306">Just later on when my brother came, he was also working in the <span class="INT_SPACE">kitchen</span>.</sentence><sentence id="307">And uh, if I recall, my father was... he was a supervisor.</sentence><sentence id="308">But there was a...what was happening there was a big uh fuss because of many things they did disappeared from the <span class="INT_SPACE">kitchen</span>.</sentence><sentence id="309">People were stealing, and so on; and he was very much against it, so he was thrown out.</sentence><sentence id="310">Those people who did uh who did steal, of course, they stayed.</sentence><sentence id="311">Nothing happened to them.</sentence><sentence id="312">But what was happening was uh that the life in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.511" long="14.151">Theresienstadt</span> was, in a way, it was quite bad for elderly people.</sentence><sentence id="313">For the people who were still young and quite strong, it was not that bad.</sentence><sentence id="314">They could, they could survive, because the work was not that difficult.</sentence><sentence id="315">But it... the possibility of surviving for young people was quite a good one.</sentence><sentence id="316">With the elderly, it was a difficult situation because they were under the <span class="DLF">roofs</span> of the uh of the <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span>.</sentence><sentence id="317">In day, it was either cold or hot; and many of those people died.</sentence><sentence id="318">When the beginning the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> had some, let's say, some six thousand</sentence><sentence id="320">people.</sentence><sentence id="321">These either soldiers and many prostitutes too.</sentence><sentence id="322">The population was uh...of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.511" long="14.151">Theresienstadt</span>, was uh...was uh...send other parts of <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span>; and all the Jews were, we were.</sentence><sentence id="323">They took over the highest, probably.</sentence><sentence id="324">There were about uh sixty, I think... don't...fifty or sixty thousand people living in the...in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>.</sentence><sentence id="325">Which was originally about for six thou...six thousand people before.</sentence><sentence id="326">Therefore, it was quite difficult uh...what quite difficult conditions for people to uh to uh to to exist.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="354">Q: How long were you in that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="356">A: In the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>, I was only from from the December [1941] "til uh..."til uh January...I think, 11th, "42.</sentence><sentence id="357">Something like three quaters of a year.</sentence><sentence id="358">And uh at that time, what happened uh that people who were in the...were indispensable, they could stay.</sentence><sentence id="359">They would stay, and save their family with them.</sentence><sentence id="360">Uh I tried that my... I gave my name just the same that I will go with my family uh if I can...| would go by my ____ there with my family.</sentence><sentence id="361">That way, my ...I saw that my job is so indispensable that they wouldn't take me, and save my family, too.</sentence><sentence id="362">But uh this was...it was that uh uh painter Fritta, who was my relative, that he tried all night...was standing there <span class="NPIP">inside</span> to get me out, and my family too.</sentence><sentence id="363">But it didn't work out.</sentence><sentence id="364">So I went...so I went to uh...with, with the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="374">Q: And in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span>, what did you find?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="376">A: In <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span>, uh the first...the first thing which was that the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> in which we went...was...every <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> had a leader.</sentence><sentence id="377">I became one of those ... And uh took care of the...the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagon</span>.</sentence><sentence id="378">And every, every <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagon</span> had their leader.</sentence><sentence id="379">And uh the first thing, the first impression was the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">toilet</span>.</sentence><sentence id="380">There were only end of barrels there, you know.</sentence><sentence id="381">There were kids or grown- ups or whatever; and the first thing, was there was an old man who was sitting there, and he died just... We, we saw the first man died like that in the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="382">It was a very bad, horrible impression, for...for the elderly people, mainly.</sentence><sentence id="383">Uh, we travelled uh about two days to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span>.</sentence><sentence id="384">We did not know where we ...where we were; and uh after questioning where we were, he said ... Uh, the German soldier said, in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Honolulu</span> - it's very very hot here.</sentence><sentence id="385">Then as the leader of the...of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagon</span>, I had to take uh care of to to get all all the people out of the...out of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagon</span>; and the sick one or the dead one, to get them out.</sentence><sentence id="386">And this was the first time I lost my family, because I didn't see them.</sentence><sentence id="387">I saw only that they...that they had to get out, and this was the end what I saw.</sentence><sentence id="388">I tried, and still...because I did not know what it is, I tried to uh to carry my rucksack and my luggage.</sentence><sentence id="389">And I could only hear or saw some SS men, you know, beat people and try that they would leave the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">luggage</span> there and...and run.</sentence><sentence id="390">Uh, L..I did not.</sentence><sentence id="391">L...I tried still to carry the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">luggage</span>.</sentence><sentence id="392">And some SS men kicked me and ran me out, so II I did...I did uh fall.</sentence><sentence id="393">I had... I had to go where they were showing me.</sentence><sentence id="394">And there were two groups of people.</sentence><sentence id="395">There were the young...young men, and uh elderly men; and the same thing with women.</sentence><sentence id="396">And also there were some kind of a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> or what for, for people that were sick.</sentence><sentence id="397">So, uh L...I just saw the man standing there.</sentence><sentence id="398">So I I got in the group without really knowing what...what it meant, of course.</sentence><sentence id="399">And this was uh...then we had to march.</sentence><sentence id="400">We marched to the <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span>, and uh I had... Uh, we got uh the uh we got to the</sentence><sentence id="402"><span class="INT_SPACE">bathroom</span> there.</sentence><sentence id="403">Or two different kinds of...there were some different <span class="INT_SPACE">rooms</span>.</sentence><sentence id="404">There was a pandemonium, because uh people were scared and they were without uh ... They they felt that this is the end of the world, because because they were screaming and beating and so on.</sentence><sentence id="405">And also there was...it was there were inscription: whoever has any money, or or stones or anything--I mean precious stones--they should give it away.</sentence><sentence id="406">Uh I had some money, so the...if if I recall still, I didn't know where to put it.</sentence><sentence id="407">One couldn't throw it anywhere, so there were four sets in...one's a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">toilet</span>.</sentence><sentence id="408">And I rolled all the money and pushed it in the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">faucet</span>.</sentence><sentence id="409">Then we went also from from there on we went to the <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span> and uh where we should stay.</sentence><sentence id="410">We got some soup to eat.</sentence><sentence id="411">Of course, the soup was so horrible; and of course we didn't eat.</sentence><sentence id="412">We just .</sentence><sentence id="413">We give it to to to the other haftlings, meaning uh the prisoners, and they were very happy.</sentence><sentence id="414">They they told us we need don't worry about it.</sentence><sentence id="415">We are going to eat it very soon.</sentence><sentence id="416">Which was, of course, true.</sentence><sentence id="417">And in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span>, I stayed from uh quite... Actually, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span> as such was uh it was uh a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>, it was a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> by itself, more or less.</sentence><sentence id="418">There was Auschwitz No.1 and Auschwitz No.</sentence><sentence id="419">2, 3, and <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span>, where I later was.</sentence><sentence id="420">This was uh Auschwitz No.</sentence><sentence id="421">3.,</sentence><sentence id="422">meaning <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span>...meant <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span> , they made other... What they wanted to do, they wanted to uh have a <span class="BUILDING">factory</span> uh to to make artificial rubber.</sentence><sentence id="423">And uh in uh <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span> uh I stayed, as I said, almost about a week.</sentence><sentence id="424">Uh there was uh I worked on a...on this a a (pause) uh worked on on on the <span class="DLF">road</span> by using a big roller, the big roller.</sentence><sentence id="425">Then I was now in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span>.</sentence><sentence id="426">It's still standing there.</sentence><sentence id="427">It was enormous kind of a roller which had to be pulled or pushed by the people.</sentence><sentence id="428">Of course, who got underneath were killed very easily.</sentence><sentence id="429">And uh I stayed uh in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span> uh about about a week.</sentence><sentence id="430">Every day, there was uh uh practically pandemonium because nobody didn't know what really happening more or less.</sentence><sentence id="431">Everybody was out of his wits.</sentence><sentence id="432">And nevertheless, then after...after a week we were put again in a group; and we were marched to to uh we we marched to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span>, which was uh very... <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span> as such really didn't exist yet.</sentence><sentence id="433">It was only part; the <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span> were built, but the rest of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> didn't exist.</sentence><sentence id="434">First thing what we had to do really was so called "[planien (ph)]," which meant straightening out the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">ground</span>.</sentence><sentence id="435">And uh besides they didn't have any equipment.</sentence><sentence id="436">They didn't have any tractors, or very few ones; and the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">railroad</span> was there, but uh everything else must have been done by hand.</sentence><sentence id="437">So the first day, what we really did was were just working on the on the <span class="DLF">grounds</span> try try to straighten it or making <span class="DLF">holes</span> and cover them up again.</sentence><sentence id="438">Just a...just a job so uh we would we would do something.</sentence><sentence id="439">Uh it was also very distressing to uh to get perhaps numbers to be tattooed, and so on.</sentence><sentence id="440">To get the numbers, we did not know what the reason was we are doing; because they just called the number and you got some two pieces of of uh of uh linen.</sentence><sentence id="441">Uh, written on it, you know, your number; and they...you should, you should have it put on your trousers or on your on your coat.</sentence><sentence id="442">And uh uh after...after that, we uh we were...uh we, we got numbered in the <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span> where we could stay.</sentence><sentence id="443">We every every <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> uh had its uh uh...(pause) Every <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> was uh...had <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bunks</span> uh... (pause) I mean, <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">beds</span>; and uh there were about five people, I don't know anymore whether they were five or six people on each on the <span class="INT_SPACE">levels</span> to be uh (pause) where where the people could sleep.</sentence><sentence id="444">I don't know if I pronounce it properly.</sentence><sentence id="445">Anyhow ... (pause)</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="521">Q: OK.</sentence><sentence id="522">Would you like to take a drink of water now, just for a moment?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class=""><p></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="528">A: <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ican</span> . (</sentence><sentence id="529">Drinking)</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="532">Q: Let's start thinking back now to what you were just describing as your experience in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span>, as a...as a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="533">The kind of work you were doing...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="536">A: Yes.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="538">Q: ...what life was like, and how long you stayed there.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="540">A: Yeah.</sentence><sentence id="541">In in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span>, I stayed from the 28th or 27th October 19 uh 40 40...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="544">Q: It doesn't matter the year.</sentence><sentence id="545">Just ...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="548">A: It...it was until...until year "45.</sentence><sentence id="549">And uh from the beginning, I was uh (pause) didn't have any special job, just just straightening the uh <span class="ENV_FEATURES">ground</span>.</sentence><sentence id="550">But later on, by sheer incident [NB: accident], they were looking for somebody who would who who could paint uh...who could paint the arbeit..--ph), who was a uh SS man who took uh who took care that people would be working or what kind of recommend they got their kommando and so on.</sentence><sentence id="551">How how would...where they would be working.</sentence><sentence id="552">And uh uh since I was... by sheer incident or luck, I I got some pencil and some piece of paper.</sentence><sentence id="553">And I painted the SS man; because he was always riding a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bicycle</span>, and I I painted him.</sentence><sentence id="554">This really should have been some gift to him, ona on aa <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bike</span>...like for children, on a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">tricycle</span>.</sentence><sentence id="555">Of course, this was a joke.</sentence><sentence id="556">And if he didn't take it as such, you likely could have been destroyed.</sentence><sentence id="557">And...but luckily, it didn't happen; and uh he was very happy with it, and I got a job in a in a uh <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> where there were painters who had painted.</sentence><sentence id="558">And also they worked in a in a in a <span class="BUILDING">building</span> where...where they were making numbers for for prisoners.</sentence><sentence id="559">So the the first thing, for about a week or two weeks, I was making numbers for for prisoners.</sentence><sentence id="560">And these will take quite nice job.</sentence><sentence id="561">Later on, I was uh I was uh replaced by uh by a by a German uh German opera singer from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.133" long="11.567">Munich</span>.</sentence><sentence id="562">His name was Kiep (ph); and because he was German he he got the better kind of a job.</sentence><sentence id="563">But...and I was...but I was told in the evening, if I want to I can come by my free will... can paint still the number.</sentence><sentence id="564">Which was a very good thing to do, because what happened uh--not that every every every haftling or every prisoner had to have...had to have a number--but the number was extremely important because if it was stamped, it was a big number.</sentence><sentence id="565">But you could have a smaller number done by hand, and the smaller numbers meant you became...you were more or less prominent.</sentence><sentence id="566">The SS knew about it, that it is uh that uh something like that exist.</sentence><sentence id="567">But somehow they did let it go, and people were very often treated according to what kind of a number they had.</sentence><sentence id="568">What I did, I used to come then.</sentence><sentence id="569">And in the evening, when I was...after after work, and work and worked there probably two hours.</sentence><sentence id="570">For that, I got more soup.</sentence><sentence id="571">And uh having more soup was a quite...a quite uh, I think, important; because you lived a little bit better.</sentence><sentence id="572">Not only that, you could...that I could uh have twice as much, but I could have... I did have also a uh a friend who was who was taking care of me otherwise.</sentence><sentence id="573">He darned my uh my uh my socks, or whatever I needed; and I gave him again the soup.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="606">Q: You mentioned that you stayed in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span> until 1945.</sentence><sentence id="607">What happened then to cause you to leave <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="610">A: Oh, what (stutter) because on the 18th of January, the uh... Pardon me, "45, uh came the...the Russians came quite close, and therefore I had to leave <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span>.</sentence><sentence id="611">But they...actually, what mattered in in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span> the life was not only like that... Uh, I don't know if I should have said, perhaps, that I got uh uh I got a Czech kapo for whom I made a uh number.</sentence><sentence id="612">And he was...he was a communist; and I asked him if I could work for him.</sentence><sentence id="613">And uh the Czech kapo uh was quite good man.</sentence><sentence id="614">He he didn't beat his people, and uh it it did.</sentence><sentence id="615">And I got...he got the first kommando; and the first kommando was divided among people who worked in the in the electro magazine, part of them, and the second part were...were the...the musicians.</sentence><sentence id="616">The musicians were many of outstanding musicians who played all over Europe, but there they were playing only for people who were working in the morning.</sentence><sentence id="617">So they gave their coming in the evening.</sentence><sentence id="618">And since they were quite prominent people--meaning that they had a better clothes a little bit--we had a little bit better clothes just the same as they did.</sentence><sentence id="619">Uh and uh what...what happened was uh many different events did perhaps the kapo in the in the in the <span class="BUILDING">Malerei</span> [NB: paintshop, or <span class="BUILDING">artists" studio</span>], where they make where they were making the the uh uh (pause) ...the numbers.</sentence><sentence id="620">He was... he was changed from uh...from uh...because he was half Jewish, and they had uh they they were told in the cases they would prefer to be Germans.</sentence><sentence id="621">They would have the possibility to become if they would also; and uh there was not everybody... Uh, no, wanted say that uh it was there was perhaps a bordello in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp.</span></sentence><sentence id="622">I mean, these were the funniest things what what happened too.</sentence><sentence id="623">Not only the horrible things.</sentence><sentence id="624">And then he became a German the next day, for which he could go to the bordello.</sentence><sentence id="625">And uh there...there, he told to to the girls there.</sentence><sentence id="626">And he suddenly discovered that she's from the same <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>, and they know each other; and he didn't perform as he should.</sentence><sentence id="627">So the SS man started to scream at him.</sentence><sentence id="628">And uh anyhow nothing happened; but I mean just as a funny thing, what what which were happening there.</sentence><sentence id="629">Uh another thing is, there was even also an opera in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>, for... Not for everybody, but more or less for the prominents of the...of the prisoners, and the SS.</sentence><sentence id="630">And the operetta was "Rosamonte."</sentence><sentence id="631">And uh I had another friend who was uh painter, who became also the kapo of the painters.</sentence><sentence id="632">He painted like in... like a magician some pictures; and nobody didn't know what was what was happening.</sentence><sentence id="633">I mean, what was on on on it.</sentence><sentence id="634">And then he turned it around, and he painted the whole thing upside down.</sentence><sentence id="635">And he painted some pictures, you know.</sentence><sentence id="636">Another funny thing was when uh they were uh uh uh... Pardon me...(pause) I wanted to say, there was a dentist and uh he was Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="637">And one day, there were...there were...there were SS men going with one of those prostitutes, and he had to have his teeth uh redone or something.</sentence><sentence id="638">He had to... Anyhow, he was sitting there; and the prisoner told him--the SS man--he should open his mouth, which he did, and keep it like that.</sentence><sentence id="639">The girl was in the...in the other <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>.</sentence><sentence id="640">And uh so they...so the haftling went to to to the girl.</sentence><sentence id="641">They had their business done, and the SS man was still sitting there with with his mouth open.</sentence><sentence id="642">Another SS man walked by and looked at it, and he started of course to scream.</sentence><sentence id="643">I don't know what really happened to the prisoner, but this was kind of a funny thing what happened.</sentence><sentence id="644">On the other hand, horrible things did...did happen.</sentence><sentence id="645">If somebody did escape, there was uh uh... Did happen a couple of times that people did escape, but very seldom anybody was saved.</sentence><sentence id="646">But</sentence><sentence id="648">0 anyhow we had to stand for, of course, for hours until the guy was caught.</sentence><sentence id="649">And it took hours and hours.</sentence><sentence id="650">Anyhow, they caught the man.</sentence><sentence id="651">And uh all...we we were standing there, and he was he was sitting on the edge of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="652">They poured cold water on him.</sentence><sentence id="653">And it was, you know, in January.</sentence><sentence id="654">You can imagine.</sentence><sentence id="655">He didn't last too long, but he he froze to death.</sentence><sentence id="656">And the all...all kommandos, all the haftlings had to walk in front of him and uh see the the...how how horrible the end is for anybody who tries...who tries to to escape.</sentence><sentence id="657">And there were various people who did try to escape.</sentence><sentence id="658">And I think some did.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="710">Q: Well, as we speak of escape, perhaps you can recall how you left the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span>.</sentence><sentence id="711">And how you eventually found your way to freedom.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="714">A: Uh to get out of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span>, uh this was uh on the 18th of January.</sentence><sentence id="715">It was freezing, and uh the Russians were coming much closer to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span> than the Germans expected.</sentence><sentence id="716">They were doomed.</sentence><sentence id="717">And uh actually what happened, my...where I was working in the electro magazine--this was where the Czech kapo existed--uh, the situation was quite good, at least for me.</sentence><sentence id="718">And I could...[ had enough of food that I could uh for for lunch or something, that I could also get couple more uh prisoners who would...who got some soup and so on.</sentence><sentence id="719">Because I was working there in the <span class="BUILDING">office</span>, which was uh very uh uh... I mean, it was an excellent job to have under those conditions.</sentence><sentence id="720">The only way probably how how I did survive, because I was in the <span class="BUILDING">office</span> there.</sentence><sentence id="721">In the <span class="BUILDING">office</span>, I could uh uh...1 could quite uh move around.</sentence><sentence id="722">And I also painted some pictures for the uh for the civilians there.</sentence><sentence id="723">Because there were civilians uh and uh...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="734">Q: When the Germans realized that the Russians were getting closer...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="736">A: Right.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="738">Q: ...what did they do at that point that allowed you to leave <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.03322" long="19.29246">Buna</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="740">A: They...they didn't do anything.</sentence><sentence id="741">I mean, uh the Germans... they said, "Alright.</sentence><sentence id="742">Pack your things, and let's go!"</sentence><sentence id="743">But because uh, I... had many uh...L...I knew many of the civilians in the... in the...in the job, they called me on the side and they gave me some some bread and some butter and uh uh they gave me goodbye.</sentence><sentence id="744">And this was the only thing they could do.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="750">Q: And then you started to walk...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="752">A: And then we started to walk to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Gleiwitz</span>."</sentence><sentence id="753">The the thing is that generally prisoners had a long coats, which were... | mean, they were very poor quality; uh but the striped coat... But I had only a short one since I didn't walk.</sentence><sentence id="754">And what was prohibited, I had under the uh some uh some pieces of of rags or whatever sewn in the coat.</sentence><sentence id="755">So it was a short one, but it was it was twice as warm as the others.</sentence><sentence id="756">And uh... &gt; Subcamp of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span>, located in <span class="REGION">Upper Silesia</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="770">Q: How far did you walk, and how long did it take?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="772">A: That's what I wanted to say.</sentence><sentence id="773">From there on, uh we walked to to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Gleiwitz</span>, which was about two days.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="776">Q: And eventually?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="778">A: But we had...we had to walk, we had to walk, and... Which was very difficult; because not only that many prisoners couldn't stand it any more and died on the <span class="DLF">road</span> and were shot, but many SS men did the same, too.</sentence><sentence id="779">So it was not only the...it was not only the prisoners who were who were under such a stress.</sentence><sentence id="780">Even the elderly SS couldn't...couldn't...couldn't stand it themselves.</sentence><sentence id="781">We got to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Gleiwitz</span>, and in ... There was a pandemonium, really; because nobody didn't know what was happening and they did not know whether should people should con...continue with with their kommandos as they were or not.</sentence><sentence id="782">And I...after two days... Well, I was not really deranged...doesn't seem like anybody else decided I had to move, so I did.</sentence><sentence id="783">And moved with them.</sentence><sentence id="784">We got on a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="785">And on the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>, and we traveled for about ten days.</sentence><sentence id="786">The only thing is uh the bread what I had from the from the people in the uh in the electro magazine, where I used to work; and then what we got on the <span class="DLF">road</span>.</sentence><sentence id="787">And on the <span class="DLF">road</span>, we had only some a half of a loaf and some marmalade, and this was it.</sentence><sentence id="788">And the water, we didn't get; because it was in January, and what we got was only when the snow was coming down and we we had some uh some water.</sentence><sentence id="789">I was still in a pretty reasonably good shape, because I had some bread and so on.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="802">Q: But it sounds like that's a fantastic story that you're into now.</sentence><sentence id="803">We're going to have to pause here for a moment while the tape is being changed, so if you'd like to take another drink of water and ....</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="808">2 Tape #2 TECHNICAL CONVERSATION</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="813">Q: OK.</sentence><sentence id="814">Mr. Bruml, if you'd like to remember again where we were talking just a few moments ago about the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> ride.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="817">A: Now if I recall, there are too many things which happened on the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> is if very few I can I can recall because the situation was such that people who were uh for for many days without food.</sentence><sentence id="818">They were dying.</sentence><sentence id="819">They were laying on the ground of the of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagon</span>, and many of those other people that uh the the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagon</span> was not that big.</sentence><sentence id="820">It was a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cattle wagon</span>, an open one.</sentence><sentence id="821">And you can imagine that we didn't have any water.</sentence><sentence id="822">The only water was the snow which was coming down.</sentence><sentence id="823">But somehow, I don't recall that much because it was every day was the same - it was pandemonium.</sentence><sentence id="824">Uh on one side of the of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagon</span>, were sitting the painters.</sentence><sentence id="825">On the other side of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagon</span> were the uh gardeners.</sentence><sentence id="826">There was another comp...uh and we know each other uh another group, I mean the gardeners.</sentence><sentence id="827">And in between was the main pleps (ph) of the prisoners who were so called musselmans.</sentence><sentence id="828">They...we were undernourished, but they were even much more so.</sentence><sentence id="829">They had only generally a very few days to to to survive; and out of the uh transport of five thousand people, probably only two, two and a half thousand survived.</sentence><sentence id="830">There were there were very often killing each other, because they thought that somebody was dying already.</sentence><sentence id="831">They took his shoes, and uh the situation was very horrible.</sentence><sentence id="832">But even if I talk about it, somehow it is like pulled together in a way that you really don't recall.</sentence><sentence id="833">Every day was the same.</sentence><sentence id="834">Every day was so horrible that you don't remember the day before.</sentence><sentence id="835">Uh after, and we went through <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span> going to the south.</sentence><sentence id="836">Some people did throw - they were standing on <span class="DLF">bridges</span> and they threw some food so the people behaved quite well because what what happened really we went through <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span> going from the north to the south in <span class="COUNTRY">Austria</span>, and uh we stopped at <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.257331" long="14.50012">Mauthausen</span>.</sentence><sentence id="837">They thought that they will get rid of us in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.257331" long="14.50012">Mauthausen</span>, but the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Mauthausen camp</span> was already, it was a horrible camp.</sentence><sentence id="838">Very few people did did survive.</sentence><sentence id="839">The, later on when I, when we were in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.257331" long="14.50012">Mauthausen</span>, uh they told us, there was inscription on it how each nation, how long the people survived, and I think Jews were I think only two uh two uh weeks.</sentence><sentence id="840">They thought them, anyhow, we were very lucky not to be denied the <span class="DLF">entrance</span> and we continued with the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="841">After ten days we we stopped and uh we were in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Dora- Nordhausen</span>.</sentence><sentence id="842">This this was uh first we were dosed with some uh petroleum, with water, you know, the disinfection, in January and standing there for hours so you can imagine not that many people survived after that.</sentence><sentence id="843">Uh but uh in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Dora-Nordhausen</span> was established really as uh as a camp where they were making uh parts.</sentence><sentence id="844">It was done under under the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">mountain</span>.</sentence><sentence id="845">The <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span> and people were making, they they had - pardon me - they also <span class="DLF">railroads</span> there and they were working on the V-2.</sentence><sentence id="846">Uh anyhow, what happened with me I got uh I didn't uh, I I got in a <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> and I was told not to uh try to uh just try to escape, to work, which I did.</sentence><sentence id="847">The the probably very seldom that somebody was running around and uh didn't work, but somehow I did, I I managed to do that.</sentence><sentence id="848">I had a broom and I was cleaning and doing things like that.</sentence><sentence id="849">But finally they caught on me and they, I was told I was in a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">transport</span> going to</sentence><sentence id="851">3 another <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span> by the name <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ellrich</span>.*</sentence><sentence id="852">Luckily, I had uh uh some uh German kapo who told me--uh he was from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Elsass-Lothringen</span> [NB: <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Alsace-Lorraine]--that</span> I would not under any circumstances go with with this group, because they go to a camp by the name Ellrich, and out of that nobody comes generally.</sentence><sentence id="853">Uh later on I did...I did see it, because when I was standing there I saw <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagons</span> of people bloodied, just cadavers and going out of there.</sentence><sentence id="854">So I didn't get into that; and uh whatever...what happened, I hid myself in a stack of of uh uh uh under some stack.</sentence><sentence id="855">And uh I hid until...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="897">Q: Was that a haystack?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="899">A: A haystack, right.</sentence><sentence id="900">That that's what they call it.</sentence><sentence id="901">I was looking for the word.</sentence><sentence id="902">And uh L..I stayed there "til the morning, when the...when all...all the...disappeared.</sentence><sentence id="903">They were at some two prisoners set on me, so I had to get out.</sentence><sentence id="904">Which I I did.</sentence><sentence id="905">And uh I I had some uh prisoner, who who whom I knew he was a kapo.</sentence><sentence id="906">I shouldn't go there under any circumstances.</sentence><sentence id="907">And tried to avoid it, which I did.</sentence><sentence id="908">And uh I I saw some people writing some some names.</sentence><sentence id="909">So, I am...I just went there and put my name on it, too.</sentence><sentence id="910">And uh I said I couldn't go with it because I just keeled over, and I just cannot remember what would happen.</sentence><sentence id="911">So they sent me to a <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>.</sentence><sentence id="912">And this was a <span class="BUILDING">typhus barrack</span>; which I of course did not know.</sentence><sentence id="913">But I had injection before I didn't get anything.</sentence><sentence id="914">And since they...I had a friend there again who knew the kapo and said I am a painter.</sentence><sentence id="915">So what happened, they opened the...the <span class="DLF">windows</span> and let me out every day; and I used to go to another <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span>, and painted pictures.</sentence><sentence id="916">Uh, they were horrible pictures like uh swans, and... and sun, and... You know, and the things which generally people like, you know.</sentence><sentence id="917">I mean, uh lower class people like ...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="937">Q: What happened to all those pictures that you painted?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="939">A: Unfor...unfortunately they they got beat up (ph) in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="940">They were horrible.</sentence><sentence id="941">Anyhow, from....</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="945">Q: Were you able to bring any pictures out with you?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="947">A: No.</sentence><sentence id="948">No.</sentence><sentence id="949">The only thing, the the the... And uh anyhow, from there on, I uh... Yeah, I I was hiding until...for a couple of days.</sentence><sentence id="950">I don't know--seven days or ten days.</sentence><sentence id="951">And uh, I...I just felt I could not hold out anymore.</sentence><sentence id="952">And I went to the <span class="BUILDING">Arbeitsdienst</span>, which was uh...they were taking people who worked... uh, so they would be working you know.</sentence><sentence id="953">Uh, prisoners, I mean.</sentence><sentence id="954">And uh I J asked them that I would love to work, because uh I just cannot stand, you know, cleaning <span class="NPIP">outside</span>.</sentence><sentence id="955">They were utterly surprised.</sentence><sentence id="956">They wanted to know uh what is my profession.</sentence><sentence id="957">So II told them I am a painter, and they gave me a <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> where there were only three guys.</sentence><sentence id="958">And they were all Czechs; and uh the thing is, they were...they were doing quite 3 SS-Baubrigade (construction brigade) camp, which functioned as a subcamp of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="51.021507" long="11.249238">Buchenwald</span>, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.269612" long="11.468478">Dachau</span> and <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Dora-Mittelbau</span>.</sentence><sentence id="959">Located in <span class="REGION">Sachsen province</span>.</sentence><sentence id="962">4 <span class="DLF">well</span>.</sentence><sentence id="963">They...the problem is only they didn't have anything to do; and uh they were getting soup and so on.</sentence><sentence id="964">They were...they had a very nice life; but then I would come there, that would be the fourth one.</sentence><sentence id="965">And they were not Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="966">I was the only one.</sentence><sentence id="967">So they tried to get me out.</sentence><sentence id="968">Not that...you know, it's self-preservation.</sentence><sentence id="969">I cannot blame them for it.</sentence><sentence id="970">And...and uh from there, ...but nevertheless I was with them.</sentence><sentence id="971">So they sent me in a German German uh <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">SS camp</span>, and I should paint there for for for the SS some inscription.</sentence><sentence id="972">Uh, which I did; and uh the paper on which I was working was very primitive uh war (ph) kind of a paper, which the ink spread on it and it just didn't work out.</sentence><sentence id="973">But the SS man who saw me to do that, started to scream.</sentence><sentence id="974">They sabotage.</sentence><sentence id="975">Luckily, the uh the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">airplanes</span> came and started to bombard.</sentence><sentence id="976">So uh II had to rush out of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">SS camp</span> to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">prisoner's camp</span>, and uh uh what I uh uh and uh (pause) and at that time I came back again to to continue.</sentence><sentence id="977">And he came...he came.</sentence><sentence id="978">He saw what...what was happening.</sentence><sentence id="979">He started to scream that uh they will hang me the next day.</sentence><sentence id="980">I had to give him my number, and I had to run back to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">prisoners" camp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="981">And somehow, he didn't...he didn't do it.</sentence><sentence id="982">I didn't hang.</sentence><sentence id="983">I am still here.</sentence><sentence id="984">Uh...and uh later on, I got a job again with the with the SS to go out with prisoners.</sentence><sentence id="985">And these were some German young boys--some sixteen, seventeen--who escaped.</sentence><sentence id="986">And they had to show...they had to show where they hid, how they ran out of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>, how they could escape.</sentence><sentence id="987">And I had to make earlier drawings of it, and they took the drawing.</sentence><sentence id="988">They put it with all the papers and sent it to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.4546411" long="13.3818501">Berlin</span>; and...and hung the prisoners.</sentence><sentence id="989">And ...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1036">Q: Well, we're just at that point now where we're going to be uh closing the interview.</sentence><sentence id="1037">And I would like you to try to remember the last days in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>, and the first days of your liberation.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1040">A: The last day of the uh... Yeah, I have to get to to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.763369" long="9.895119">Bergen-Belsen</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1042">Q: And from this <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span> to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.763369" long="9.895119">Bergen-Belsen</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1044">A: From...from this <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>, it was again five days.</sentence><sentence id="1045">And after five days, it was again a horrible kind of experience.</sentence><sentence id="1046">We came...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1050">Q: Walking?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1052">A: ...to...to... No, it was not walking.</sentence><sentence id="1053">It was a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>; and the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> went through the night.</sentence><sentence id="1054">And uh five days out, five days.</sentence><sentence id="1055">And I I just cannot remember any more, but I know that we came to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Hamburg</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1056">And uh the uh during...during the night very often happened that we have seen burning <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trains</span>, bombardment.</sentence><sentence id="1057">And also we uh...a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">plane</span> came, while the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> was going, and and started... Uh, you could see the reflectors on the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">plane</span>; and they started to bomb.</sentence><sentence id="1058">And uh we could jump out of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>; but SS was already out of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>, and they would they would shoot anybody who would run away.</sentence><sentence id="1059">But uh we did finally arrive in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.763369" long="9.895119">Bergen-Belsen</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1060">In <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.763369" long="9.895119">Bergen-Belsen</span>...uh there, it was...1 think, most of the...of the camp was uh uh German inhabitants.</sentence><sentence id="1061">Pardon me, uh German uh women women inhabitants.</sentence><sentence id="1062">And uh (pause) the the events were not, this this was really the last more or less to date in in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.763369" long="9.895119">Bergen-Belsen</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1063">So then</sentence><sentence id="1065">5 there were already inscription that it is under the Red Cross, but the SS was still there.</sentence><sentence id="1066">They...they could...could shoot.</sentence><sentence id="1067">Finally uh we saw the uh the the English, who came in.</sentence><sentence id="1068">And they put in charge, because there were very few people with <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">tanks</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1069">So they put in charge SS; but the Hungarian SS.</sentence><sentence id="1070">The Hungarian SS was not exactly much better than the than the German one, but still they they knew that this is the end.</sentence><sentence id="1071">Anyhow, so they didn't do that much.</sentence><sentence id="1072">Some people tried to escape.</sentence><sentence id="1073">These was the Russian, through the canalization...through the <span class="DLF">canals</span>; and uh they were shooting in.</sentence><sentence id="1074">So I don't know that anybody survived, but I did.</sentence><sentence id="1075">Uh the the <span class="DLF">door</span> was not anymore, uh the current was cut off, but the <span class="DLF">door</span> was still there.</sentence><sentence id="1076">So with couple of friends, we jump on the on the <span class="DLF">door</span> and tried to get over.</sentence><sentence id="1077">Which we did.</sentence><sentence id="1078">And uh run run in the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">woods</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1079">Finally, we got uh many of those prisoners were running around in the in the <span class="DLF">farms</span> and so on.</sentence><sentence id="1080">The farmers of course they knew that this is the end so they gave us food and so on and uh many of those prisoners ate as much or tried to gorge themselves as much as as they could, and they got very sick because all the time what we were eating was uh, there was only bread or or soup which was soup, so any any little bit of fat was uh really dangerous to to your intestines.</sentence><sentence id="1081">Uh after that uh the the British came and people were still running around trying to get to the <span class="DLF">farms</span>, and they took some uh some uh radios and oh some uh some coats and so on what they got.</sentence><sentence id="1082">Some they didn't get.</sentence><sentence id="1083">Something like after every war, people don't behave normally and rationally as they should.</sentence><sentence id="1084">Uh I know we were in some in some family.</sentence><sentence id="1085">They were quite nice people, so they they told us we can lay down on on the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bed</span> and sleep, and that was quite nice of them, and uh then we uh then I got back again to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span> because we were told by by the by the British we had to go back again so we did, and uh I got uh a job with the British.</sentence><sentence id="1086">I I got uh in with some paper that I was serving of uh I was working for the <span class="BUILDING">UNRRA</span> and uh I stayed with with the British till the I think the July because uh there was a magazine they had some shirts and whatever, some uh uh (pause) underwear and so on.</sentence><sentence id="1087">And I had to to supervise it.</sentence><sentence id="1088">I had to and since I knew Czech and some some uh and I knew German, some some English I could uh I was working for for the British all the time.</sentence><sentence id="1089">And I was also the leader of the <span class="BUILDING">Czech barrack</span> and uh I could uh by uh... Yeah I also, pardon me, and I was also supervising the <span class="INT_SPACE">kitchen</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1090">Many of the German girls, many of them were widows--and young, some eighteen, nineteen years old--and they were they were giving food to the to the prisoners.</sentence><sentence id="1091">And one had to take care of you know so the people wouldn't go twice or three times for the same soup and so on.</sentence><sentence id="1092">Uh there were ... (pause)</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1136">Q: Well, as you're pausing, it gives me an opportunity to tell you that the tape is almost finished and we wanted in these last few minutes for you to tell us how and where you met your wife.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1138">A: Oh. (</sentence><sentence id="1139">Pause) Should I say now?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1142">Q: Right now.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1144">A: This was kind of a very interesting thing and this did happen very often to us.</sentence><sentence id="1145">I met my wife going with one girl who was friend of mine and I was standing in one row and my wife was standing in the other row of people to try to pronounce dead people for really dead, so we</sentence><sentence id="1147">6 can inherit from our relatives, our parents, any possessions, and since uh I was the only one who from the male who who did survive that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp,</span> which my wife was just trying to find out if anybody did survive be...besides men, and we were looking at each other and we thought that we somehow, that we somehow know each other.</sentence><sentence id="1148">And this this was the thing that we tried, I mean uh we we just thought that uh it is quite interesting anything like that happening.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1156">Q: That was in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1158">A: This was not.</sentence><sentence id="1159">This was already when we came back again to to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Prague</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1162">Q: To <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Prague</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1164">A: And uh (pause)...but what what was really very interesting was that I did not know my wife.</sentence><sentence id="1165">Neither she did know me.</sentence><sentence id="1166">Nevertheless, she did know my brother; and I knew her her father, because her father was uh something like a tinsmith.</sentence><sentence id="1167">He had a small <span class="BUILDING">shop</span> and I was working in that in that <span class="BUILDING">shop</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1168">I wanted to have as much knowledge of different professions which I could do.</sentence><sentence id="1169">So I was working there for a week, or I didn't know even her her father.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1176">Q: Well, that was a very nice coincidence then to the story of how you met your wife.</sentence><sentence id="1177">And with that, I'm going to thank you again for taking this time to share with us your thoughts on this...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1180">A: I thank you, I thank you just the same very much.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1182">Q: Well, you've done beautifully.</sentence><sentence id="1183">Thank you.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1186">A: Thank you.</sentence><sentence id="1189">7 Photographs () This is my family.</sentence><sentence id="1190">My father Henry, mother Irma and my small brother Otto.</sentence><sentence id="1191">None of them, of course, survived.</sentence><sentence id="1192">And me, in the...in the front. (</sentence><sentence id="1193">2) This is a picture of me in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.763369" long="9.895119">Bergen-Belsen</span>, the last day of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.763369" long="9.895119">Bergen-Belsen</span> in "45.</sentence><sentence id="1194">And this was done by Kurt Fanderfalde.</sentence><sentence id="1195">Used to be a communist, and escaped to to to <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
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