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layout: transcript |
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interviewee: thomas none blatt |
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rg_number: rg-50.030.0028 |
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pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0028_trs_en.pdf |
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ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn508320 |
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gender: m |
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birth_date: none |
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birth_year: 1927.0 |
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place_of_birth: izbica lubelska |
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country: poland |
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experience_group: survivor,resistance |
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ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: none |
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ghetto: none |
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camp(s)_encyclopedia: none |
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camp: none |
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non_ss_camp: none |
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region: none |
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needs_research: none |
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data_entry: cl |
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accession: 1990.438.1 |
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revisit: none |
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tags: transcripts |
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--- |
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--- |
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layout: transcript |
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interviewee: thomas none blatt |
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rg_number: rg-50.030.0028 |
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pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0028_trs_en.pdf |
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ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn508320 |
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gender: m |
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birth_date: none |
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birth_year: 1927.0 |
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place_of_birth: izbica lubelska |
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country: poland |
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experience_group: survivor,resistance |
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ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: none |
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ghetto: none |
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camp(s)_encyclopedia: none |
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camp: none |
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non_ss_camp: none |
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region: none |
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needs_research: none |
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data_entry: cl |
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accession: 1990.438.1 |
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revisit: none |
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tags: transcripts |
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--- |
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<body><dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1">THOMAS BLATT September 6, 1990</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3">Q: Would you tell me your full name please?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="5">A: My name is Tomasz Blatt, B-L-A-T-T. And I'm born in 1927 in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="7">Q: What's the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="9">A: In a little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>.</sentence><sentence id="10">This is in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lublin district</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="13">Q: Tell me about it.</sentence><sentence id="14">Tell me about your parents and what they did, and your childhood.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="17">A: This <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> was a very interesting <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>, because...uh...it's a hundred percent <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="18">In...uh...in 1870...uh...a Polish aristocrat...uh...did receive a permit to build a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="19">And...uh...in a place close to the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">river Wieprz</span>, he established this...uh...Jewish...uh...<span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="20">In the beginning, there were about four <span class="BUILDING">houses</span> according the... the what I discovered in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>....</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="25">Q: Tom, what we need to do...excuse me...we need less of the history.</sentence><sentence id="26">We need your story.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="29">A: Okay....It's a typical <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish town</span>, a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">shtetl</span>, hundred percent Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="30">The Christian population lived around the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>, on the foothills.</sentence><sentence id="31">About 3,000 Jews used to live there.</sentence><sentence id="32">Uh...And the...this <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> was built in a valley surrounded by <span class="ENV_FEATURES">hills</span>, or <span class="ENV_FEATURES">mountains</span>, and this the Germans later used for the purpose which we will come to it.</sentence><sentence id="33">We had..uh...one <span class="BUILDING">shul</span> and about three, four Beis Medresh [NB: Beth Midrash].</sentence><sentence id="34">Very deeply orthodox.</sentence><sentence id="35">As a matter of fact, I remember there was next to it a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>, Zamo __, and one Saturday, some Jewish or free...they called them "free thinkers" did come with <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bicycles</span>.</sentence><sentence id="36">On top of it they were without caps, without a hat.</sentence><sentence id="37">And I remember the...half of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> they chased them out with sticks and with stones because they come on a Saturday and...um... Saturday, Friday in the evening and the next day Saturday, the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> was quiet because it was a holy day, like nobody in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> except in the evening.</sentence><sentence id="38">I remember Yom Kippur.</sentence><sentence id="39">You could feel it in the <span class="DLF">air</span>.</sentence><sentence id="40">You could see the people moving by to...to the Beis Medresh...or to the <span class="BUILDING">temple</span>, to the <span class="BUILDING">shul</span>.</sentence><sentence id="41">It was deeply orthodox.</sentence><sentence id="42">There were a few which did try...uh...to reach out.</sentence><sentence id="43">For instance, my father.</sentence><sentence id="44">In our <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> everyone had a name; on top of it, he had a special name given.</sentence><sentence id="45">For example, if he does...he didn't have a leg, they called him [Leme Yoine (ph)]. [</sentence><sentence id="46">Yoine (ph)] was his name, because uh...my father, why I'm telling him was because my father was already what you call "free thinker."</sentence><sentence id="47">He did try to move out from the orthodox ways, so they called him {Leibele Goy (ph)].</sentence><sentence id="48">It was..., my [NB: his] first name was [Leibele (ph)], he was Goy because he did...uh...smoke cigarettes sometimes Saturday.</sentence><sentence id="49">They did know it.</sentence><sentence id="50">You can't sneak...you can't smoke cigarettes in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> but when the...the shutters in the the <span class="BUILDING">home</span> weren't closed, all the peoples in the neighbor did know that my dad was smoking cigarettes Saturday because of it.</sentence><sentence id="51">| remember mine...if you talk about my childhood.</sentence><sentence id="52">I will tell you a story which will give you an idea.</sentence><sentence id="53">Uh...For example, my father had a Polish friend, a Christian.</sentence><sentence id="54">He send him out to buy pork meat usual; because...uh...nobody could see my dad be going into...uh...to buy pork meat, of course.</sentence><sentence id="55">So he sent this Christian friend.</sentence><sentence id="56">And I...once Iremember and my father told me, "Try it."</sentence><sentence id="57">And I tried it and I liked it.</sentence><sentence id="58">But in that time they used to live in so-called, in a [Urisha (ph)].</sentence><sentence id="59">You know what [Urisha (ph)] is? [</sentence><sentence id="60">Urisha (ph)] is a <span class="BUILDING">house</span> because it was built maybe 50, 80 years ago by my grand, grand, grandparents and later when the children did get grandchildren, they get married and so on, they divided this <span class="BUILDING">house</span>.</sentence><sentence id="61">So...uh...finally when L...was already over there, when I was about 10 years old, this whole <span class="BUILDING">house</span> was divided with partitions that everybody could hear everybody across the <span class="DLF">wall</span>.</sentence><sentence id="62">So mine...mine aunt did hear me...did hear the conversation with my dad and she noticed by listening in that time, I'm eating pork meat.</sentence><sentence id="63">So what...the next thing I remember she opened the <span class="DLF">door</span> where my father lived and said, "Tom." "</sentence><sentence id="64">Toivi," not "Tom."</sentence><sentence id="65">Not Tom.</sentence><sentence id="66">"Toivi, you eat pork meat?"</sentence><sentence id="67">I said, "Yes, Mimi, I ate." "</sentence><sentence id="68">You know what [Streicher" (ph)] is?" "</sentence><sentence id="69">Yes, I know what [Streicher (ph)] is." "</sentence><sentence id="70">You will go to <span class="NPIP">Hell</span>."</sentence><sentence id="71">I know about <span class="NPIP">Hell</span> because my uncle told me stories, how they burn people and everything else. "</sentence><sentence id="72">Promise me, you wouldn't eat any more."</sentence><sentence id="73">So I say I wouldn't.</sentence><sentence id="74">And she left.</sentence><sentence id="75">And I was such...so scared about <span class="NPIP">Hell</span> and everything else that immediately...it was a shock to me I remember...what I remember is I... was in a high fever and laid down the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">sofa</span> and my whole head was just like a...like a <span class="BUILDING">mill</span>.</sentence><sentence id="76">And I was sick for about two days.</sentence><sentence id="77">They called the doctor and that time, you know, the doctor...doctors used to come to the <span class="BUILDING">home</span>, and he said, "Give him aspirin.</sentence><sentence id="78">I don't see anything."</sentence><sentence id="79">And finally when my Mimi did come to visit me, and I remember the first thing what I ask her was, "Mimi, will I go to <span class="NPIP">Hell</span>?"</sentence><sentence id="80">And she probably understood what the problem is; that I simply, that I'm that scared.</sentence><sentence id="81">I'm sick from being scared.</sentence><sentence id="82">And she said, "Oh, Toivi, you know, don't worry because when your Bar Mitzvah will come, God will forgive you everything."</sentence><sentence id="83">Now, this...this had a fourfold effect because I wasn't afraid anymore.</sentence><sentence id="84">I was okay, but I again I did...when mine...the next time my dad did ask me if you want a piece of pork meat, I said "Yes," because anyway, in about two, three years God will forgive me.</sentence><sentence id="85">So anyway, I just tell you a little picture it was.</sentence><sentence id="86">Some people they tried to get out from the circle of...uh... orthodox behavior, but it was very...it was trying.</sentence><sentence id="87">But...I otherwise, actually it was a deeply <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish town</span>.... uh ...with a very big respect for the Rabbi.</sentence><sentence id="88">The Rabbi was our authority.</sentence><sentence id="89">And...uh...Friday, with the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">shochet</span> and everything else.</sentence><sentence id="90">And so it was "til 1939, when the war started.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="153">Q: Tell us about that.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="155">A: Uh... remember the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>...you know, we didn't have...uh... radios in that time, so any news He may be using the Yiddish word "treife" here.</sentence><sentence id="156">was...uh...transmitted by person who had a big...uh...drum...uh...Jewish guy.</sentence><sentence id="157">His name was Hydel (ph)], and he did go to the middle of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> to the <span class="BUILDING">marketplace</span> and drummed up until all the people had come together, and now he said, "Hello, hello.</sentence><sentence id="158">This is the news..." and so on.</sentence><sentence id="159">He did say that a war started.</sentence><sentence id="160">Hitler invaded <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>, and a mobilization is in order and...uh...he was the latest news from the Burgermeister's office, <span class="BUILDING">Mayor's office</span>, I would say.</sentence><sentence id="161">And he advised to glue in strips of paper on the <span class="DLF">windows</span> so they shouldn't shatter if the bombs fall down, and that was the news.</sentence><sentence id="162">So people start to pick up newspapers, cut it in strips, and glue in and some people did prepare dry bread; and so it was in our <span class="NPIP">place</span> too.</sentence><sentence id="163">And later I remember <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">planes</span> coming.</sentence><sentence id="164">I remember <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">Polish plane</span> shot down, and the next I remember my family was moving out from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>, hiding in a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> from the bombs.</sentence><sentence id="165">We were afraid that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> will be bombed because there was a big <span class="BUILDING">factory</span>, a <span class="BUILDING">military factory</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> uh producing material for fortification purposes.</sentence><sentence id="166">So I went to this <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span>, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Panska- Dolina</span>.</sentence><sentence id="167">Over there, I remember Polish soldiers and I remember when the news arrived that the Soviet Union is fighting against <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>, too.</sentence><sentence id="168">I remember the speech from the Polish officer, that they have, they are stabbed in the back by the Soviet soldiers and now they will fight to the last drop of blood.</sentence><sentence id="169">And ...uh...later I remember the rumor, the Germans are coming, and now we are a group of people about 25.</sentence><sentence id="170">We don't know what to do, scared in the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>.</sentence><sentence id="171">The young people say, "Oh, we will run away from the Germans.</sentence><sentence id="172">We are going across the river Bug to the Russians."</sentence><sentence id="173">The older people, mine parents included...my father, "No, we're going back to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>.</sentence><sentence id="174">Germans.</sentence><sentence id="175">Of course, they're anti-Semites, but they're also people."</sentence><sentence id="176">And I remember we split then.</sentence><sentence id="177">It was in the night.</sentence><sentence id="178">I remember the stars and could be about maybe 12 o'clock in the middle of the night, like a...like a film, like a movie, we departed.</sentence><sentence id="179">And the sons did walk to the east, and some parents did go back to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>.</sentence><sentence id="180">And I went back with my parents.</sentence><sentence id="181">We come to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> and now...uh.. (chuckle) interesting news.</sentence><sentence id="182">The Germans are leaving.</sentence><sentence id="183">So I said, "The Germans are leaving.</sentence><sentence id="184">I didn't see a German soldier.</sentence><sentence id="185">I must see a German soldier."</sentence><sentence id="186">So I went down looking for a German soldier. "</sentence><sentence id="187">Oh, there're two German soldiers still in the <span class="BUILDING">bakery</span> buying bread."</sentence><sentence id="188">So I went to the <span class="BUILDING">bakery</span> and I seen in front of them two German soldiers with <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bikes</span> and talking and they...they sound like Yiddish because German is pretty close to Yiddish.</sentence><sentence id="189">So I was wondering...take a look, they're speaking my language. (</sentence><sentence id="190">laughing) And...uh...I did say hello to them.</sentence><sentence id="191">We did talk a little bit.</sentence><sentence id="192">| Yiddish and they're German.</sentence><sentence id="193">There's nothing wrong with it.</sentence><sentence id="194">And they left.</sentence><sentence id="195">Uh...A day later the Russians arrived.</sentence><sentence id="196">What it was in the beginning, that the Germans simply did go too far and later did...did come to agreement about the...the <span class="DLF">demarcation line</span>, and they moved out.</sentence><sentence id="197">And the Russians arrived.</sentence><sentence id="198">In that time the local communists organized their own militia and they were in power for about two weeks and later again, it's a mistake.</sentence><sentence id="199">The Russians are leaving again.</sentence><sentence id="200">The Germans are coming.</sentence><sentence id="201">So again what should we do?</sentence><sentence id="202">My mother told my father, "Listen, Let go out.</sentence><sentence id="203">I know Russian.</sentence><sentence id="204">I know the language.</sentence><sentence id="205">Let go out from here."</sentence><sentence id="206">And my father said, "No."</sentence><sentence id="207">Actually he bought a horse and <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">carriage</span> already.</sentence><sentence id="208">And later he said, "No, I was born here.</sentence><sentence id="209">I could die here."</sentence><sentence id="210">And my father for some reason, which saved me later in my life I could say, he was in a way a Polish patriot.</sentence><sentence id="211">He was a volunteer in the Polish legionnaires, so called Pi_sudski's army...uh...uh...in the First World War.</sentence><sentence id="212">He was wounded.</sentence><sentence id="213">He was a invalid.</sentence><sentence id="214">And...uh...which was, you know, a very horrible in that time.</sentence><sentence id="215">So he...and he said, no, he will stay here.</sentence><sentence id="216">He was born here and he...he could die here.</sentence><sentence id="217">And he stayed.</sentence><sentence id="218">And this was...and this sealed our future, our destiny.</sentence><sentence id="219">So I've seen the Russians going, and a lot of Jews did, runned after them close by the...the regular army soldiers, everybody going east.</sentence><sentence id="220">And I was a child 12 years old, but I felt that something historical happened, that something...I felt something is wrong.</sentence><sentence id="221">We should go.</sentence><sentence id="222">But we didn't.</sentence><sentence id="223">The Russians left and <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> was a no-man's land.</sentence><sentence id="224">No Russians.</sentence><sentence id="225">No Germans.</sentence><sentence id="226">The Germans did come.</sentence><sentence id="227">But they stopped about 12...12 kilometers before Izbica in a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">district town</span> of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.984123" long="23.171871">Krasnystaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="228">Izbica was nobody.</sentence><sentence id="229">So two...the third night, sitting in my <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> I hear a big explosion.</sentence><sentence id="230">And suddenly screaming, yelling, "What's happened?"</sentence><sentence id="231">A group of Jews stood on the <span class="DLF">street</span> <span class="NPIP">outside</span> talking, and some Poles throw a grenade at them.</sentence><sentence id="232">And they killed a few and they wounded a few.</sentence><sentence id="233">So we start to be terrorized by the Poles.</sentence><sentence id="234">So people were scared to go <span class="NPIP">outside</span> the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> and there's another legation did form, a Jewish delegation, under the leadership of Miss Roetenstein.</sentence><sentence id="235">Still I remember her name.</sentence><sentence id="236">By the way, this is the same, this is my Mimi (chuckle) which she told me I shouldn't eat... shouldn't eat unkosher.</sentence><sentence id="237">Under...under her leadership, they went to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.984123" long="23.171871">Krasnystaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="238">Actually, to invite Germans to come to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> because it...it is no law in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> and we are afraid and that they must come in.</sentence><sentence id="239">So Germans did come into <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> to protect the Jews.</sentence><sentence id="240">No, you must understand that there were no Gestapo in the first days.</sentence><sentence id="241">There were simple Wehrmacht soldiers.</sentence><sentence id="242">And there was also called an Ortskommandantur Wehrmacht, a local command...command of the soldiers arrived and they patrolled the <span class="DLF">streets</span> so they were pretty quiet.</sentence><sentence id="243">As matter of fact, the Jews used to do business... uh...with the soldiers.</sentence><sentence id="244">I remember a...kids did go out and buy from them cigarettes and sold...uh...different stuff.</sentence><sentence id="245">It...it was rather peaceful with them, until Gestapo arrived.</sentence><sentence id="246">There were two of them.</sentence><sentence id="247">Ludwig Klein and Karl Engels.</sentence><sentence id="248">Both survived the war, and I was a witness against both of them at <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Hamburg</span>.</sentence><sentence id="249">They both committed suicide in...in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Hamburg</span> after the war, being in <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>.</sentence><sentence id="250">Well, anyway, these two SS were a terror in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>.</sentence><sentence id="251">Every day, before breakfast, they went out, killed five, ten Jews; and later they ordered breakfast.</sentence><sentence id="252">It was unbelieve...unbelievable and we realized, finally, that we have no rights.</sentence><sentence id="253">And many times we wished that if the first Germans which arrived, if they would kill a 100 Jews, if they would terrorize the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>, it would be a blessing because everybody would escape with the Russians.</sentence><sentence id="254">You understand?</sentence><sentence id="255">In the beginning!But, unfortunately, for us the first Germans were good Germans, so- called.</sentence><sentence id="256">So...now it was too late, and we were in a trap.</sentence><sentence id="257">In that time, again, compared to the future, it wasn't so bad.</sentence><sentence id="258">There were still families.</sentence><sentence id="259">Some people were killed because of Engels, but otherwise it was possible to live.</sentence><sentence id="260">There were...uh...there were <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">labor camps</span> and Jews were forced to go to work in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">labor camps</span>.</sentence><sentence id="261">In the beginning, they were forced to work on the <span class="DLF">streets</span> from 8 o'clock in the morning til 7 o'clock in the evening, and they were released <span class="BUILDING">home</span>.</sentence><sentence id="262">Later, as I said, there were <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">labor camps</span> where they went out for a month or for a week.</sentence><sentence id="263">They worked.</sentence><sentence id="264">Later they...they were exchanged.</sentence><sentence id="265">New Jews did come and they were let <span class="BUILDING">home</span>.</sentence><sentence id="266">Uh... Now on that point, I must tell you that the Germans in that time established Jewish Councils, so-called "Judenrat."</sentence><sentence id="267">And through the Judenrat, they were able to execute their orders, so the Judenrat sent people to work in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">labor camps</span> and the Judenrat also after a month or so sent new people.</sentence><sentence id="268">The old ones...the first ones should be released.</sentence><sentence id="269">So it wasn't a order.</sentence><sentence id="270">Now, everybody, according...according the rules, everybody was supposed to go for one month to the labor.</sentence><sentence id="271">But again, if there was a rich fellow in the list he was able to pay the poor...to pay the poor fellow, and he did voluntary go.</sentence><sentence id="272">But as the time progressed, it was worse and worse.</sentence><sentence id="273">We heard about beating.</sentence><sentence id="274">We heard about torture, and people refused to go.</sentence><sentence id="275">In that time the first so-called "Aktions" happened. "</sentence><sentence id="276">Aktion" is a roundup.</sentence><sentence id="277">It started with roundups to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">labor camps</span>.</sentence><sentence id="278">They would come in the morning and told the Jewish Council to deliver 500 men or 200 men.</sentence><sentence id="279">If the Jewish Council wasn't able to deliver through their own police, they started indiscrimate to go from <span class="BUILDING">house</span> to <span class="BUILDING">house</span>, beat, shot... Ukrainians, which worked with the Nazis together.</sentence><sentence id="280">And they...they caught...they simple caught people on the <span class="DLF">streets</span> "til they get the amount of 500 people and they took them away.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="409">Q: What were you and your parents doing?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="411">A: I was a goy in____ the picture and later got to the ____.</sentence><sentence id="412">So in that time, I was already in danger.</sentence><sentence id="413">I was, of course, 12, 13 years old, 13.</sentence><sentence id="414">So my father looked for protection.</sentence><sentence id="415">What about my family in that time?</sentence><sentence id="416">My mother, of course, was a housewife.</sentence><sentence id="417">My father lost his business, He had from before, as a legionnaire, he had a <span class="BUILDING">liquor store business</span>, so-called "monopol koncesja" in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>, uh...as a veteran from the legionnaires.</sentence><sentence id="418">Lost my [NB: his] business, but still he was able to make a living.</sentence><sentence id="419">He was very well known.</sentence><sentence id="420">He has done some business with the Polish farmer, even if it was illegal; but he did look to protect me.</sentence><sentence id="421">So he made a deal with a Pole of German origin, Mr. [Platow (ph)].</sentence><sentence id="422">Mr. [Platow (ph)] had a <span class="BUILDING">blacksmith shop</span>.</sentence><sentence id="423">He made with him a deal that I will work for him.</sentence><sentence id="424">So I should be employed in case the Germans are looking unemployed, because in the beginning they took so-called unemployed Jews.</sentence><sentence id="425">I went to <span class="BUILDING">work</span> about 8 o'clock in the morning til 5:00.</sentence><sentence id="426">It was hard work because in that time we had a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">lathe</span>, I remember; and the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">lathe</span>, it's not like now--you put in an electric motor, and the lathe is running.</sentence><sentence id="427">I did need to move everything by myself, and many times I thought I...I will collapse but then my boss said, "You turn.</sentence><sentence id="428">Just turn."</sentence><sentence id="429">And I thought I...I must turn because this is my protection.</sentence><sentence id="430">I must turn the wheel even if I wasn't able to breath anymore.</sentence><sentence id="431">But I managed. (</sentence><sentence id="432">Pause) When the Gestapo arrived, they went...they had two <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">motorcycles</span> and a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span> and they...and they need a <span class="BUILDING">repair shop</span>.</sentence><sentence id="433">So they went to another mechanic, blacksmith.</sentence><sentence id="434">His name was [Solecky (ph)].</sentence><sentence id="435">And the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">motorcycles</span> were over there, always, for the night to be cleaned or the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span> was over there...the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">Gestapo car</span>.</sentence><sentence id="436">And once in the evening I was going by, the boss, Mr. [Solecky (ph)] from this...uh...<span class="BUILDING">repair shop</span> told me, "Tom, would you like to help me?</sentence><sentence id="437">I have a lot of work; stay overnight and put together a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">motorcycle</span>."</sentence><sentence id="438">So I said, "Okay, I will just tell my dad."</sentence><sentence id="439">Told my dad that I will be a whole night working in Mr. [Solecky's (ph)]...I will call it from now on "<span class="INT_SPACE">garage</span>," because Americans are familiar with what a...what a <span class="BUILDING">garage</span> is.</sentence><sentence id="440">And while I was working next day, he said...[Solecky (ph)]..."Listen, why don't you work with me.</sentence><sentence id="441">Leave Mr. [Platow (ph)].</sentence><sentence id="442">Come to me."</sentence><sentence id="443">And I thought it was a good idea.</sentence><sentence id="444">First of all, I will be protected by Gestapo, clean the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">motorcycles</span>, and I agreed.</sentence><sentence id="445">And from that time on, I started to work...uh...for Mr. [Solecky (ph)] and it was dangerous because the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">motorcycles</span> of the Gestapo need to be cleaned, you know, spotless.</sentence><sentence id="446">And I worked very hard and I done a good job.</sentence><sentence id="447">And as I see it now, it was a good choice because later when the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">death camps</span> did come, I was protected practically...practically the last minute, and I was able to see how <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> is sinking down, myself being protected.</sentence><sentence id="448">I didn't need to hide like another people that hide in that time.</sentence><sentence id="449">I've seen it.</sentence><sentence id="450">Okay.</sentence><sentence id="451">Going back to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">labor camps</span>.</sentence><sentence id="452">Suddenly, transports arrived from...uh...Pozna_...from west...from the western part of <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>...Pozna_, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ko_o</span>, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.211788" long="18.253516">Konin</span>, and lot of Jews arrived; we divided...the Judenrat divided the people to different <span class="BUILDING">houses</span> and that time I did get very close with...uh...[Jussik Bresler (ph)], who was...uh...a dentist's son from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ko_o</span>.</sentence><sentence id="453">In our <span class="NPIP">place</span> used to live a man, his name was Kohn, with his wife.</sentence><sentence id="454">Once I remember...it was the evening...I still remember my mother standing close...close to the <span class="DLF">window</span> with Mr. Kohn and his wife, and discussing a letter.</sentence><sentence id="455">And I listen: "gassing people, gassing....".</sentence><sentence id="456">And my mother I remember saying, "It's impossible.</sentence><sentence id="457">It's a fantasy.</sentence><sentence id="458">Can't be."</sentence><sentence id="459">So a lot of time parents don't even realize how much children could listen in, pretending doing something else.</sentence><sentence id="460">And I did.</sentence><sentence id="461">What I understood, and later I find out more is Miss [Mrs.] Kohn, received a letter from her son in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ko_o</span>, which was still in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ko_o</span>, that in a place called <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Chelmno</span>, they're gassing people.</sentence><sentence id="462">He wrote about this.</sentence><sentence id="463">But, as I said, it was dismissed.</sentence><sentence id="464">By the way, her son who wrote the letter survived and he lives in [Holland (ph)], in <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="465">And I later talked to him when I went to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="466">And I was in the South, reminding him about this letter he wrote.</sentence><sentence id="467">Anyway, so this was a bad signal, but later quiet down.</sentence><sentence id="468">At least I didn't hear...at least I didn't hear anything.</sentence><sentence id="469">But once was some "Akcja."</sentence><sentence id="470">The SS arrived in the morning, did...uh...asked the Judenrat to deliver 2,000 people to the <span class="BUILDING">marketplace</span>.</sentence><sentence id="471">And the Judenrat did go <span class="BUILDING">home</span> to <span class="BUILDING">home</span> and delivered, but a lot of people already were afraid about the torture, about the beating, and hide.</sentence><sentence id="472">So the Nazis themselves start to look for them and collected them in the <span class="BUILDING">marketplace</span>.</sentence><sentence id="473">After such a "Aktion," after the...uh...the desired amount of Jews were concentrated in the <span class="BUILDING">marketplace</span>, everybody else could go out and uh...<span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> was like normal.</sentence><sentence id="474">The people were over there, then later they were taken to the <span class="BUILDING">station</span>, there were already <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagons</span> for them loaded and taken away.</sentence><sentence id="475">Like they took them away before to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">labor camps</span> close to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Zamo</span> _...was a labor...<span class="POPULATED_PLACE">labor camp</span>, [<span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Mokre Zdanow</span> (ph)].</sentence><sentence id="476">They left.</sentence><sentence id="477">But usual, in a case like this, they took away some family...family members, and the family which was left usual...usually sent some Poles, Christian Pole, a friend, to go after the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> to see the destination.</sentence><sentence id="478">And so after this <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">transport</span> left, some people...Polish people went after them with a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bike</span> or with...uh...either way, with another <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> tracing this <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="479">The same night...uh...I...a day later, | remember I was at <span class="BUILDING">home</span> and I heard some knocking in the <span class="DLF">window</span>.</sentence><sentence id="480">It was already after the curfew...curfew time.</sentence><sentence id="481">But nevertheless, many times I did sneak out after curfew time.</sentence><sentence id="482">But I hear some knocking, and as I go to the <span class="DLF">window</span> and...uh...there was a knock like I had...uh when I went to my friend [Jussik (ph)], I knock the same way...three times long and three times short it was.</sentence><sentence id="483">I recognize as my friend [Jussik (ph)] from...from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ko_o</span>.</sentence><sentence id="484">So I opened the <span class="DLF">door</span>, go out, sneak out, you know, because Jews are not allowed <span class="NPIP">outside</span>, and hidden behind this <span class="BUILDING">house</span> I say...I noticed [Jussik (ph)] standing by.</sentence><sentence id="485">I said, "[Jussik (ph)], What's the urgency?</sentence><sentence id="486">What is so..." "Tom, I must tell you something.</sentence><sentence id="487">Tom, you remember [Ruza (ph)]?"</sentence><sentence id="488">I said, "Yes." "</sentence><sentence id="489">She was taken before yesterday." "</sentence><sentence id="490">Yes." "</sentence><sentence id="491">She's dead."</sentence><sentence id="492">I mean, "What do you mean, she's dead?" "</sentence><sentence id="493">I mean...you remember the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">transport</span> which left with the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trains</span>...the last transport of 2,000 Jew?</sentence><sentence id="494">All of them are dead." "</sentence><sentence id="495">What do you mean, all of them are dead?" "</sentence><sentence id="496">Tom, you don't know?"</sentence><sentence id="497">I said, "No."</sentence><sentence id="498">He said, "There's a <span class="NPIP">place</span> call <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Belzec</span>, and I have a friend who just come back and he told me that all the Jews, not only from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>, every day, thousands of them are coming in to this <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp Belzec</span>, and this <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span> should be overflowing but nobody comes out.</sentence><sentence id="499">Only people are going in.</sentence><sentence id="500">And night time is a big fire, and they're killing people there.</sentence><sentence id="501">I don't know how.</sentence><sentence id="502">They say by elect...electrocuting them."</sentence><sentence id="503">Because in the beginning, they didn't know the method. "</sentence><sentence id="504">But they're killed."</sentence><sentence id="505">I said, "[Jussik (ph)], you are dreaming." "</sentence><sentence id="506">That's what I want to tell you."</sentence><sentence id="507">He left.</sentence><sentence id="508">I didn't tell this my parents because I didn't want to scare them.</sentence><sentence id="509">But the next time the whole <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> did know, that there's a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">death camp</span>, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Belzec</span>, 35 miles from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>, and they're killing people over there.</sentence><sentence id="510">So everybody start to build <span class="NPIP">hiding places</span>.</sentence><sentence id="511">Before the...we had <span class="NPIP">hiding places</span> before too, but they were primitive, only to...to hide themself in case they..they want to take them to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">labor camp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="512">But now the stake was life, and they...they start to build very elaborate <span class="NPIP">hiding places</span>.</sentence><sentence id="513">In that time the Mayor of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>...in that time was a German Mayor of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>, a Polish German, "Volks..."--so-called "Volksdeutsch."</sentence><sentence id="514">He decided to move to better <span class="NPIP">location</span>.</sentence><sentence id="515">Before the war, he did live in some kind dingy, a little rundown <span class="BUILDING">house</span>, but now he want a better <span class="BUILDING">house</span>, so he moved exactly in the same <span class="BUILDING">house</span> where we....we did live.</sentence><sentence id="516">It was like...you would call it in...in <span class="COUNTRY">America</span>, <span class="BUILDING">apartment house</span> like on the __.</sentence><sentence id="517">In <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>, it was really a little <span class="BUILDING">house</span> where few families lived together.</sentence><sentence id="518">So he did become our...our neighbor.</sentence><sentence id="519">In this particular <span class="BUILDING">house</span>, which was a long <span class="BUILDING">building</span>...we...we had about eight families, but by him moving in, we did join the same <span class="INT_SPACE">attic</span>.</sentence><sentence id="520">The <span class="INT_SPACE">attic</span> over this <span class="BUILDING">house</span>, part was on his...on top of his <span class="INT_SPACE">apartment</span> and part of our <span class="INT_SPACE">apartment</span>, so what we have done...we ask a mason to take a part of this <span class="INT_SPACE">attic</span>, build a <span class="DLF">double wall</span>.</sentence><sentence id="521">We made a <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span> over there.</sentence><sentence id="522">The <span class="DLF">entrance</span> was from...was from our <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> upstairs.</sentence><sentence id="523">They build a little <span class="DLF">opening</span>, a little <span class="DLF">door</span>, maybe three feet by two.</sentence><sentence id="524">We squeezed in, went into the <span class="INT_SPACE">attic</span>, and we were actually on...on Mr. Schultz, which was the mayor, on his..on his <span class="REGION">property</span>; so when we put against the <span class="DLF">wall</span> our little <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cabinet</span>, it did cover the <span class="DLF">entrance</span> and we were safe, and this was our <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="525">The drawback was that we did need a guy from <span class="NPIP">outside</span> to...but this I have done because when was...I was already protected.</sentence><sentence id="526">I told you which way.</sentence><sentence id="527">So I have done run back to the...uh...the <span class="BUILDING">garage</span>.</sentence><sentence id="528">Anyway, now the second Akcja did come, and the third.</sentence><sentence id="529"><span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> was empty.</sentence><sentence id="530">Soon transport from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nuremberg</span>, from <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span>, from <span class="COUNTRY">Slovakia</span>.... Why I say <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span> separate and <span class="COUNTRY">Slovakia</span> separate?</sentence><sentence id="531">Because the Czech Jews, they're completely different...uh...than the Slovakian Jews.</sentence><sentence id="532">The Slovakian Jews looked more like the Polish Jews.</sentence><sentence id="533">Same type of people; and... uh...(pause) from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.4546411" long="13.3818501">Berlin</span>...some people.</sentence><sentence id="534">In...from, practically, from a low population, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> did grow to about 15, 20 thousand; so it was even people...even the <span class="DLF">street</span> was ...were too many people to move around.</sentence><sentence id="535">So again a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Akcja</span> and again did go down to 10,000...</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="662">Q: What is your <span class="NPIP">point</span>?</sentence><sentence id="663">What.... Describe you...</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="666">A: I will go to it.</sentence><sentence id="667">I will go; I can't describe every <span class="BUILDING">akcja</span>...I will describe one big one...one where they took me to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>.</sentence><sentence id="668">I will tell you about one <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Akcja</span>.</sentence><sentence id="669">If I will describe, if I will try to describe everything, it will be miserable, terrible, and would take me a long, long time and probably you would be exhausted and I would be exhausted.</sentence><sentence id="670">I will tell you about the typical <span class="BUILDING">Akcja</span>.</sentence><sentence id="671">It always started about, about 4 o'clock in the morning with a shot in the <span class="DLF">air</span>.</sentence><sentence id="672">They had some shotting [shooting] and the whole <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> was surrounded.</sentence><sentence id="673">As I said, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> was in a <span class="ENV_FEATURES">valley</span>.</sentence><sentence id="674">It was like a...a <span class="DLF">trap</span>.</sentence><sentence id="675">You didn't need too many soldiers on top of the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">mountains</span> so anybody should be visible...the whole <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> should be visible.</sentence><sentence id="676">Nobody was able to go out.</sentence><sentence id="677">And another group of Ukrainians...Ukrainians that cooperated with the Germans, went in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> and they dragged people out.</sentence><sentence id="678">First, as normally before, the Judenrat call out to the Jews to go out to the <span class="DLF">streets</span> and called, "Jews, Come out.</sentence><sentence id="679">You're going to labor."</sentence><sentence id="680">Uh...sometimes, even they lured them..."Everybody will get a half a bread...a half a bread on the...on the way."</sentence><sentence id="681">And so on. "</sentence><sentence id="682">Come out.</sentence><sentence id="683">Nothing will happen."</sentence><sentence id="684">That's what the German told him to say.</sentence><sentence id="685">And when then this didn't help because we did know the truth, the Germans and the Ukrainians dragged down the <span class="BUILDING">houses</span>.</sentence><sentence id="686">When I heard the first shot...not...not only me...all over...all in the <span class="BUILDING">house</span> heard the shouting, we immediately concentrated in our <span class="INT_SPACE">apartment</span>.</sentence><sentence id="687">In that time we had a connection to the whole <span class="BUILDING">house</span>.</sentence><sentence id="688">If there was no <span class="DLF">door</span> to the next <span class="INT_SPACE">apartment</span>, we made a <span class="DLF">door</span> or <span class="DLF">opening</span> so everybody was able to pass, to come to our ...and we went to the first <span class="INT_SPACE">floor</span> into the <span class="INT_SPACE">attic</span> and I put this against the <span class="DLF">wall</span> and did run back to the <span class="BUILDING">garage</span>.</sentence><sentence id="689">Oh, my boss, he was, of course, a Volksdeutsche; he was so happy because now he could make some money.</sentence><sentence id="690">He put on the red arm band with the "Hakenkreuz," with the swastika, took his rifle and went out with Germans to look for Jews.</sentence><sentence id="691">The Aktion was a whole day.</sentence><sentence id="692">When they had a group of about... about thousand people in the <span class="BUILDING">marketplace</span>, they used to... uh...take them to the <span class="BUILDING">train station</span>, which was about a mile away through the whole <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>, the main <span class="DLF">road</span>.</sentence><sentence id="693">The main <span class="DLF">road</span> was lined up on both ways by Poles, looking.</sentence><sentence id="694">At least, I talk about <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">mine town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="695">And I was standing between them.</sentence><sentence id="696">I was...I wasn't afraid because the Mayor of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> had a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span>.</sentence><sentence id="697">I was cleaning for him.</sentence><sentence id="698">The Gestapo wouldn't take me because I was cleaning their <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">motorcycles</span>, and the policeman did know him because they did come to salute him.</sentence><sentence id="699">Everybody did know I worked for [Soleckv(ph) ...for this Volksdeutsche.</sentence><sentence id="700">And even if they were...by chance somebody would take...take me, they would take me out from the circle.</sentence><sentence id="701">I was...I was sure about this.</sentence><sentence id="702">So I was just standing with the Poles looking.</sentence><sentence id="703">And once I've seen...I've seen many times cases like that, but this particular day was a kid, maybe...maybe seven years old which did run out, because not too many Ukrainians did guard this column of people.</sentence><sentence id="704">But maybe every...every hundred feet maybe a Ukrainian.</sentence><sentence id="705">It was easy to run out.</sentence><sentence id="706">But the problem was a different problem.</sentence><sentence id="707">This boy run out.</sentence><sentence id="708">Three minutes later, he was taken back by Poles, and pushed him back in the column.</sentence><sentence id="709">The point is this, that in mine dreams I don't dream about the German peo..., about the Germans.</sentence><sentence id="710">I'm not afraid of about the Germans.</sentence><sentence id="711">The Germans didn't know who I was.</sentence><sentence id="712">I was afraid about my neighbors, the Poles.</sentence><sentence id="713">They were living...you see, the Germans...they didn't know Jews.</sentence><sentence id="714">Their vision of Jews was from the...Rosenberg's'... Rosenberg?</sentence><sentence id="715">From his...from the propaganda.</sentence><sentence id="716">A Jew must have a long nose, and so on and so.</sentence><sentence id="717">But the Poles are my neighbors.</sentence><sentence id="718">They did live with Jews for hundreds of years, and I was afraid of them.</sentence><sentence id="719">Anyway, I was sitting back and observing.</sentence><sentence id="720">Nothing I could do.</sentence><sentence id="721">Transport finally...all the people were moved to the <span class="BUILDING">train station</span> and they were...they weren't still enough people.</sentence><sentence id="722">Two <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trains</span> already left for <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Belzec</span> so the Aktion was, they take another night.</sentence><sentence id="723">And that time I told Solecky (ph)] that I want to hide my brother.</sentence><sentence id="724">I want to take him away to a safer <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="725">Mine brother was together with father in this <span class="INT_SPACE">attic</span>, but I...1 was afraid about...uh...this <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="726">So I took my brother out.</sentence><sentence id="727">I went over there.</sentence><sentence id="728">Took my brother out, and I took him with me to the <span class="BUILDING">garage</span>.</sentence><sentence id="729">A whole night was going on screaming.</sentence><sentence id="730">I remember I...this...this [Solecky (ph)], my boss, locked me in the <span class="BUILDING">garage</span>, and in the <span class="BUILDING">garage</span> was a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">Fiat</span>, uh, the...the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">mayor's car</span>, and I slept in this <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span>.</sentence><sentence id="731">And that's a terrible sight.</sentence><sentence id="732"><span class="NPIP">Outside</span> was the screaming, shouting, "Shma Israel" and so on.</sentence><sentence id="733">I turned on the radio, and the radio...I still remember...the song.</sentence><sentence id="734">The radio....there was a <span class="BUILDING">station</span> from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Vienna</span> and I remember the "Lily Marlene" song.</sentence><sentence id="735">And this was singing, and the screaming...it was a...a terrible... just turned on the radio to...to...should take over, but was impossible and I'm sleeping with my brother.</sentence><sentence id="736">My brother in the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">back seat</span>, and I in the front and my boss had a...a sense of humor, and every so often he did come and knock on the <span class="DLF">door</span>.</sentence><sentence id="737">He did know I'm over there because he allowed me in the <span class="BUILDING">garage</span> but he knocked, "Jews, Raus!</sentence><sentence id="738">Jews, Raus!"</sentence><sentence id="739">Just to scare me.</sentence><sentence id="740">Just for the fun, you know.</sentence><sentence id="741">And later, of course, he said, "Don't be afraid.</sentence><sentence id="742">Stay over there."</sentence><sentence id="743">And he left.</sentence><sentence id="744">Early in the morning, he opened the <span class="BUILDING">garage</span> and I told mine brother to go in the...to hide between the junks and that in the corner.</sentence><sentence id="745">It was a little partition.</sentence><sentence id="746">And Ukrainians did come in, cleaning their rifles and cleaning their pistols, and here one of the Volksdeutsches, of the German collaborators, did come in...a guy who I know very well, and I cleaned his <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">motorcycles</span> always.</sentence><sentence id="747">And so I told him, Mr. Krauser, I did...did want to know my family's * Alfred Rosenberg was a leading ideologue of Nazi racist theories and served as the Reich Minister for the Occupied Territories in the East.</sentence><sentence id="748">0 still intact... told Mr. Krauser, "Would you like to go with me to my <span class="BUILDING">home</span> to see if everything is okay?</sentence><sentence id="749">They did...they didn't rob us or whatever?"</sentence><sentence id="750">So he said, "Okay.</sentence><sentence id="751">Come."</sentence><sentence id="752">And so I went with him and come into our <span class="BUILDING">home</span> and, of course, the <span class="DLF">door</span> is smashed open and in there was Ukrainians trying on socks, changed their socks...I remember still.</sentence><sentence id="753">He did find a pair of socks he was changing.</sentence><sentence id="754">In another <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> was another Ukrainian looking in there and the...Krauser, said to them "Raus!"</sentence><sentence id="755">He had a nice Hakenkreuz, you know, on his..uh...shirt, the swastika, and he told them to get out.</sentence><sentence id="756">He was our authority, so they left.</sentence><sentence id="757">So while Krauser was down...uh..I did try to sneak in upstairs to see the <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span> is still intact.</sentence><sentence id="758">He noticed it.</sentence><sentence id="759">So he said...so he said, "Tom, do you want to go upstairs?"</sentence><sentence id="760">So I said, "Aw, forget it.</sentence><sentence id="761">No.</sentence><sentence id="762">Let go back."</sentence><sentence id="763">I didn't want to take the chance.</sentence><sentence id="764">But he felt something and he said, "No, let go upstairs."</sentence><sentence id="765">I said, "No, Mr. Krauser, no let not." "</sentence><sentence id="766">Let go."</sentence><sentence id="767">He went up and I went after him.</sentence><sentence id="768">He looks around and he said, "So, Tom."</sentence><sentence id="769">I said, "Okay, everything is okay, let's go back."</sentence><sentence id="770">But he felt something.</sentence><sentence id="771">He wasn't so stupid.</sentence><sentence id="772">He looked around, knocked on the <span class="INT_SPACE">floor</span>, knocked on the <span class="DLF">wall</span>.</sentence><sentence id="773">And later he goes to this little <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cabinet</span> and wanted to move it.</sentence><sentence id="774">And I grabbed him by the hand, "Mr. Krauser, please leave it." "</sentence><sentence id="775">No, Tom.</sentence><sentence id="776">What is it?Don't be afraid." "</sentence><sentence id="777">This is a <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="778">My parents're over there.</sentence><sentence id="779">Don't go in because you will scare them."</sentence><sentence id="780">He said, "Don't be afraid."</sentence><sentence id="781">He moved away.</sentence><sentence id="782">And he found about hundred...over a hundred Jews over there.</sentence><sentence id="783">He goes in, comes out, moved back this <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cabinet</span> and told me, "Tom...." They called me, that time they didn't call me Tom. "</sentence><sentence id="784">Toivi, don't be afraid."</sentence><sentence id="785">And he didn't betray it.</sentence><sentence id="786">Later, when the Aktion was over, the...and I did come to remove this <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cabinet</span> and told them everything is over, and everybody went out, they made a collection of money to give him.</sentence><sentence id="787">But it was after...after that.</sentence><sentence id="788">So this was the Aktion.</sentence><sentence id="789">Later were another Aktions, basically similar.</sentence><sentence id="790">I remember my aunt from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.984123" long="23.171871">Krasnystaw</span> was running wild on the <span class="DLF">street</span>, breaking ...breaking his finger.</sentence><sentence id="791">She had one little boy, also called Toivi.</sentence><sentence id="792">And they took him away.</sentence><sentence id="793">He was hiding...he was...I don't how come, but they took him, they left her.</sentence><sentence id="794">And she was running wild on the <span class="DLF">street</span>, breaking her fingers. "</sentence><sentence id="795">My Toivi, they took him away..." This Iremember.</sentence><sentence id="796">And this was a typical Aktion.</sentence><sentence id="797">When Aktion, when they left there were <span class="DLF">windows</span> broken in the <span class="BUILDING">Jewish houses</span>, people did look for gold, and there was a lot of down on the <span class="DLF">street</span> from the cut...they cut bedding to look for money and everything else...was like a ruin everything.</sentence><sentence id="798">And I just... just went <span class="BUILDING">house</span> to <span class="BUILDING">house</span> to notice that my friends [Srulek (ph) is taken, this guy is taken, mine...mine friend, a girl was taken, and nothing you could do.</sentence><sentence id="799">After each Aktion, we were promised this is the last time.</sentence><sentence id="800">Only unproductive Jews were taken.</sentence><sentence id="801">You see... hope.</sentence><sentence id="802">Hope could kill, and hope could save.</sentence><sentence id="803">If I wouldn't have hope, I would kill myself.</sentence><sentence id="804">So I...but a lot of people, because they hoped, they didn't fight and they did go to death practically without...without resistance.</sentence><sentence id="805">Anyway, (sigh) that's another Aktion, another one.</sentence><sentence id="806">Later, we hear about <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>.</sentence><sentence id="807">Another <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">death camp</span>, built this time north, on the north side of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>.</sentence><sentence id="808">And again a Aktion.</sentence><sentence id="809">I mustn't talk yet.</sentence><sentence id="810">1 There is something which I could dwell on.</sentence><sentence id="811">In <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> there were lot of Czechoslovak...Czech Jews, from <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span>.</sentence><sentence id="812">They considered themselves, probably with German inspiration, that they are better than the Polish Jews.</sentence><sentence id="813">So they made their own Judenrat....Czechoslovakian Judenrat.</sentence><sentence id="814">And the next Aktion, the Czechoslovakian Jews did chase the Polish Jews.</sentence><sentence id="815">And there was special Czechoslovakian militia...Jewish...Jewish militia, which chased....that time being a Czech Jew or a German Jew was a permit to live.</sentence><sentence id="816">That was a <span class="BUILDING">Akcja</span>.</sentence><sentence id="817">When this was over, the Polish Jews would get together...not the Jews, the Judenrat Polish.</sentence><sentence id="818">How do I know it?</sentence><sentence id="819">I know it because my uncle was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Judenrat</span>.</sentence><sentence id="820">He did come to my <span class="BUILDING">home</span> and talk with my father and I always had a...and it was public knowledge too.</sentence><sentence id="821">The next...and so what's happened the Polish Jews did get...get together money and the Judenrat did bribe the Landrat, because Mr. Landrat is district officials--the German, you know.</sentence><sentence id="822">And when it was next roundup, before closing the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagons</span>, the Landrat, the district official, told all the Czech Judenrat and the Czech militia to go on the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagons</span>, and [they] take them away.</sentence><sentence id="823">And this was the revenge from the Polish.</sentence><sentence id="824">I just tell you...uh...uh...uh...you could take it out.</sentence><sentence id="825">But I just tell you the...the interaction, what it was. (</sentence><sentence id="826">sigh) So they played one against the other. (</sentence><sentence id="827">Pause) In 1942, so I was working in this <span class="BUILDING">garage</span> for a long time, watching, seeing everything.</sentence><sentence id="828">Unfortunately, what...not being able to do anything.</sentence><sentence id="829">Once I think I helped, in a way, because there was a Aktion and like usual, in a Aktion...after the Aktion the Ukrainians, the SS, did come to <span class="BUILDING">Solecky's garage</span> to clean the...the guns.</sentence><sentence id="830">So I overheard...uh...one Ukrainian, he said to Solecky, "Listen, prepare for me something...some kind of, I think it was a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">tire</span>," because Wednesday, we coming back.</sentence><sentence id="831">So I was sure that Wednesday would be again so I put out the word that Wednesday will be again...again a Aktion; which was true.</sentence><sentence id="832">It was a Aktion next Wednesday.</sentence><sentence id="833">Uh...up til now, my family was still intact.</sentence><sentence id="834">This <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span> was perfect.</sentence><sentence id="835">He didn't betray, Krauser. (</sentence><sentence id="836">Pause) Uh...me, as a boy, in the evening...uh..I used to go out after curfew to my friends and we had girlfriends from <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span> and we did get together in a <span class="INT_SPACE">hallway</span> and we talk and...I, like any boys my age, 15 years, I did want to have my girlfriend.</sentence><sentence id="837">I was very shy, extremely shy, so finally, I...[ met mine counterpart, a shy Czechoslovakian girl.</sentence><sentence id="838">And we were just standing...nothing, just standing pretending to be grownup and later, I remember after Aktion I went to her and...uh...1 went to the <span class="INT_SPACE">hallway</span>, a dark <span class="INT_SPACE">hallway</span> which always, there...when I did come to her <span class="NPIP">place</span> and she did come out from her <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> and is talking to me in the <span class="INT_SPACE">hallway</span>, her mother...and every few minutes opened the <span class="DLF">door</span>, looking what we are doing.</sentence><sentence id="839">And I come to the <span class="INT_SPACE">hallway</span>'s empty, the <span class="DLF">window</span>'s broken, and she's gone.</sentence><sentence id="840">They took her away, so I thought about her mother being so protective of her, and now is gone.</sentence><sentence id="841">And...uh...so slowly all my friends....kids are gone.</sentence><sentence id="842">And now comes the time when we know that we can't escape destiny and my father calls me and he said, "Tom, Toivi, you must leave."</sentence><sentence id="843">Says I, "What do you mean, "leave"?" "</sentence><sentence id="844"><span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Toivi</span>, you see what's happened.</sentence><sentence id="845">The next Akcja will be Judenrein.</sentence><sentence id="846">That means no Jews could be.</sentence><sentence id="847">And this <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span> will not help anymore.</sentence><sentence id="848">So you have prepared Christian papers, so-called Aryan papers, and you will escape to <span class="COUNTRY">Hungary</span>.</sentence><sentence id="849">Your brother will be hidden here.</sentence><sentence id="850">I arranged everything by a Pole.</sentence><sentence id="851">Your mother has also false papers and she will go to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="852">And I will hide someplace here.</sentence><sentence id="853">But 2 you will go...you will...you must leave tonight."</sentence><sentence id="854">I don't want to go into any particulars about...the...false papers, but about 2 o'clock in the night time, I received my papers.</sentence><sentence id="855">I was...my name was Waldemar Ptaszek, and my mother's name was [Leukadia Stankewicz (ph)] and so on.</sentence><sentence id="856">It wasn't much time to learn the new names because a half hour later, we suppose to go to the <span class="BUILDING">train station</span>.</sentence><sentence id="857">Now, my mother was still...soon...soon came to my parents...I remember, a...some gold coins.</sentence><sentence id="858">And I had about 100 mark in my pockets and a few Polish zlotys.</sentence><sentence id="859">And we eat sardines...I remember me and my mother and little brother and was another boy, Velvole (ph)], from another family.</sentence><sentence id="860">He's supposed to go with me.</sentence><sentence id="861">We eat, and later I kissed uh my mother, my father, my brother; said goodbye, and...uh...I should go...in that time, it was agreed that I go to my neighbor, Schneider, wherever everybody who want to escape is concentrating.</sentence><sentence id="862">What it was was a group of about 12 people, Jews, with false papers and a Polish Christian guide supposed to lead them until the <span class="DLF">Hungarian border</span>.</sentence><sentence id="863">Close to the <span class="DLF">Hungarian border</span>, another fellow, Christian fellow, should take him over and try to sneak him into <span class="COUNTRY">Hungary</span>.</sentence><sentence id="864">Now...now we say, all going to <span class="COUNTRY">Hungary</span>...you know, .</sentence><sentence id="865">To understand the desperation of the time, you must understand this.</sentence><sentence id="866">To go out from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span>...first of all, to go out in curfew time, death sentence.</sentence><sentence id="867">To go out from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span>, death sentence.</sentence><sentence id="868">To be in a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>, a death sentence.</sentence><sentence id="869">And you come to...to the (chuckle) to the <span class="DLF">border</span> you can't go through.</sentence><sentence id="870">You must sneak through.</sentence><sentence id="871">On top of it, there were rumors that the Polish guides, they take you to the <span class="DLF">border</span> and later they rob you.</sentence><sentence id="872">They make you first write a letter that you crossed nicely, to lure everyone, and later they rob you and they kill you.</sentence><sentence id="873">Now you understand this desperation that still my parents agreed to let me go.</sentence><sentence id="874">So I went out from this...from my <span class="BUILDING">parent's house</span> to go to the Schneiders".</sentence><sentence id="875">Half way...I still can't understand why, but half way to <span class="BUILDING">Schneider's house</span>, I turn around and go back.</sentence><sentence id="876">I... don't know...I think I was so much attached to my little brother...I think I did want to see my brother again.</sentence><sentence id="877">Went back and my father was angry.</sentence><sentence id="878">I think he was superstitious, and he said, "You shouldn't come back.</sentence><sentence id="879">It's not a good sign."</sentence><sentence id="880">It's some kind of superstitious.</sentence><sentence id="881">If you...if you go back, it's not good.</sentence><sentence id="882">Anyway.</sentence><sentence id="883">So I felt bad that my father was angry.</sentence><sentence id="884">I turned around and went back to <span class="BUILDING">Schneider's house</span>, and there about four girls and was some men called Rappoport from Zamo___ dressed as Polish peasant.</sentence><sentence id="885">Time comes close, and we are sneaking out slowly to the <span class="BUILDING">train station</span>, watching that no German patrol should see us.</sentence><sentence id="886">By the way, the Germans they...they walk so loud that we could hear them a half a mile away, but still it was dangerous; so we sneaked into the <span class="BUILDING">train station</span> but we are not...we can't go into the <span class="BUILDING">train station</span> because there are lamp post and it's a little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="887">They would immediately recognize us.</sentence><sentence id="888">So we're waiting in a <span class="DLF">ditch</span> till the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> comes.</sentence><sentence id="889">The <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> arrives and before moving out, we did jump in in the last <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagon</span>.</sentence><sentence id="890">And this way we were on...on our way to the <span class="DLF">Hungarian border</span>.</sentence><sentence id="891">By the way, tickets were bought by our guide beforehand; he did give us the ticket for riding the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="892">On the way, I encountered...already in the 3 beginning, but the first 20 miles past <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> a problem which I don't feel is so important to dwell on it, so I will skip it.</sentence><sentence id="893">But finally, after about an hour's drive...uh...on the <span class="DLF">road</span>, I see people closing the <span class="DLF">windows</span>, starting to lit cigarettes.</sentence><sentence id="894">I hear some talking to themselves quietly.</sentence><sentence id="895">I see something change in the atmosphere.</sentence><sentence id="896">And suddenly, there's a <span class="BUILDING">train station</span> and the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> slowed down and the left side...as if would have been a big fire, and I could feel the smell.</sentence><sentence id="897">It was all over.</sentence><sentence id="898">And I understand, they're talking...they was talking...there's been Jews, "Spalenie _ydow" [Translation: "Burning Jews"] and so on, in Polish.</sentence><sentence id="899">And I look and there's <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Belzec</span>...passing by <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Belzec</span> .</sentence><sentence id="900">Not knowing that a year later, we'll be in a <span class="NPIP">place</span> like this.</sentence><sentence id="901">And I...I was starting to shake.</sentence><sentence id="902">We passed <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Belzec</span>.</sentence><sentence id="903">The <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> did not stop.</sentence><sentence id="904">In the middle of the way, close to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lwow</span> [<span class="POPULATED_PLACE">L'vov</span>], something happened.</sentence><sentence id="905">All eight Jews, they're sitting in the same <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>...in the same <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagon</span>, and there was one fellow, Rabinowicz, who was always moving between us.</sentence><sentence id="906">Next to us were sitting, next to me, [Velvole (ph)], Polish farmers were sitting.</sentence><sentence id="907">And I heard one woman talking to another one that this one which is roaming, which is going around must be Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="908">And I was already scared, but so happens, this Rabinowicz comes to me and tells me, "Tom, [Guyosh (ph)]," which is our guide, "he wants more money.</sentence><sentence id="909">Otherwise, he's leaving us."</sentence><sentence id="910">So I told him, "Listen, Rabinowicz, you must run.</sentence><sentence id="911">Now we have really problems because next <span class="DLF">door</span> is the woman who is suspecting you are Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="912">Now you did come to me, and there's problems."</sentence><sentence id="913">So he immediately told that...told another one, and in the next <span class="BUILDING">station</span>, it was night time, we all left the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> and we managed to go, mingled with lot of people go to the front, and we went on the same <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> except on another <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagon</span>.</sentence><sentence id="914">And we managed to come to close to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lwow</span>.</sentence><sentence id="915">Now it was agreed before we left <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> not to travel through the main <span class="BUILDING">station</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lwow</span>, because there are rumors that the Gestapo is searching terrible this <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="916">And they're checking everybody.</sentence><sentence id="917">The best <span class="NPIP">place</span> to go out a <span class="BUILDING">station</span> before <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lwow</span>, go through <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lwow</span> by foot, and later the next <span class="BUILDING">station</span>, pass <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lwow</span>, and go on again to the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="918">And the guide will be waiting already this <span class="BUILDING">station</span> past <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lwow</span>.</sentence><sentence id="919">So we go out and the...<span class="NPIP">place</span> called <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Kleparow</span> [NB: Polish spelling].</sentence><sentence id="920">And I remember they were building some <span class="DLF">roads</span>, so we need to go single file; and over there had a problem with a Ukrainian guard who stopped me but he asked me if I am Jewish and I said no.</sentence><sentence id="921">Why did he...he didn't actual stop me.</sentence><sentence id="922">We were single file in a...in front of us a Ukrainian militia man was riding a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bicycle</span>.</sentence><sentence id="923">And while he was passing our <span class="DLF">line</span> and he stopped.</sentence><sentence id="924">And he was yelling, "Eh, you, come raus!"</sentence><sentence id="925">I wasn't sure if he yelled at me or he yelled somebody else.</sentence><sentence id="926">But...but nobody did go out from this...from the people moving, so I turned around and went to him.</sentence><sentence id="927">So he asked me...looked at me and asked me, "Are you Jewish?"</sentence><sentence id="928">I said, "No." "</sentence><sentence id="929">Show me your papers."</sentence><sentence id="930">I showed him the papers: Waldemar Ptaszek.</sentence><sentence id="931">In the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>, I had already time to repeat "Waldemar Ptaszek, born here and here, and my father's so and so." "</sentence><sentence id="932">So what do you have in your <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">rucksack</span>?"</sentence><sentence id="933">So I said, "I have something...I have uh... food which I bought to...to take to my parents.</sentence><sentence id="934">I am just smuggling.</sentence><sentence id="935">If you want to give me a fine, I can't help it but I don't have money."</sentence><sentence id="936">He looked at me and said, "Okay.</sentence><sentence id="937">Go."</sentence><sentence id="938">Later...uh...I realized our mistake.</sentence><sentence id="939">I realized why...the... the...the Christian Poles recognized us as Jews on the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="940">You know why?</sentence><sentence id="941">We went into a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> for smugglers.</sentence><sentence id="942">And everybody was dressed like smugglers.</sentence><sentence id="943">And now the few Jews are coming 4 dressed in their best because we are going for a trip.</sentence><sentence id="944">In the best...I had my shoes polished.</sentence><sentence id="945">We were...we just stand up like a sore...like a sore thumb how they say it in..in English so this was our... and probably this the reason he called me.</sentence><sentence id="946">I was nicely dressed.</sentence><sentence id="947">We did stood out from the rest of the people.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1236">Q: Okay.</sentence><sentence id="1237">At this point...excuse me...we need to stop and pause and change tapes.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1240">A: Yah.</sentence><sentence id="1241">Okay.</sentence><sentence id="1242">5 TAPE #2</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1246">Q: Okay.</sentence><sentence id="1247">Continue.</sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1248">Q: So, after the Ukrainian let me go back, I was walking.</sentence><sentence id="1249">We were all together but basically mixed with another population walking the <span class="DLF">streets</span> of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">L'vov</span> [Polish: Lwow] in 1942.</sentence><sentence id="1250">I was walking my friend [Velvole (ph)], farther with him, 10 feet behind us was Rappoport and farther, mingled with another people.</sentence><sentence id="1251">And I remember passing the <span class="DLF">street</span> Janowska ____.</sentence><sentence id="1252">On <span class="DLF">Janowska street</span>, there was a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">concentration camp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1253">And I remember looking through the <span class="DLF">wires</span> at the Jews working, and their [eves] because you could see it.</sentence><sentence id="1254">I didn't know.</sentence><sentence id="1255">I heard about Janowska lager, but I didn't know it was right in the middle of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1256">So L...I start to shake in that time too.</sentence><sentence id="1257">I mean shake, being that scared.</sentence><sentence id="1258">And....uh...later after walking along the...all the way through the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>, I arrived in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Skni_ow</span> [NB: Polish spelling], a <span class="BUILDING">station</span> past ...past <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">L'vov</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1259">Now I must tell you something.</sentence><sentence id="1260">I was a very naive child.</sentence><sentence id="1261">I had a big fantasy.</sentence><sentence id="1262">I always fantasied.</sentence><sentence id="1263">Even being in that <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>, I fantasized.</sentence><sentence id="1264">You see, I did read a lot.</sentence><sentence id="1265">A lot of Jack London and all the books; and I was always dreaming of traveling, of adventures.</sentence><sentence id="1266">And for some reason, I'm even ashamed to admit, I felt like I'm there...adventure.</sentence><sentence id="1267">It was a mixture, being some hero of mine...from some book going to <span class="DLF">borders</span> and...and feeling as a Jew, it's...it's a deadly game.</sentence><sentence id="1268">It was a mixture.</sentence><sentence id="1269">Anyway, when I come to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Skni_6w</span>, I... didn't even understood that now the biggest... the worst part is coming now.</sentence><sentence id="1270">And I spent all my Polish money because I'm going on a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> and we already close to the <span class="DLF">border</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1271">I spent...I had 500 zlotys, and I think it's 10 for something and...uh..I went to going to the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">toilet</span>, looking on the mirror and looked at me myself and thought, "How do you look, Tom?</sentence><sentence id="1272">Face not bad.</sentence><sentence id="1273">The nose, maybe a little bit too long, but also not bad.</sentence><sentence id="1274">The hair, reddish.</sentence><sentence id="1275">Not bad....".</sentence><sentence id="1276">Everything was...in my opinion, I give...myself a plus...for...for the Aryan look.</sentence><sentence id="1277">And...uh...the only trouble was...was with my Jewish accent, and I talked Polish.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1308">Go back to the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>, and now we have a big <span class="DLF">city street</span>, and we suppose to go out in a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> past the [Lsitvov (ph)] Street, and later go to the <span class="DLF">border</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1309">They're suppose to lead us to the <span class="DLF">border</span>, ...our...our...our guide.</sentence><sentence id="1310">Anyway, while the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> is coming close to the <span class="DLF">gate</span>...to the [Lsitvov (ph)] Street, something happened.</sentence><sentence id="1311">There was a Jewish girl with us.</sentence><sentence id="1312">Langer was her name.</sentence><sentence id="1313">She was...she didn't have typical Semitic features cause none of us who did try to go on Christian papers had the Semitic features, but she was nevertheless dark, dark eyes, so she always did look out to the <span class="DLF">window</span> when the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> was moving so nobody should see her face.</sentence><sentence id="1314">It wasn't as much as Semitic features than the look of a Jewish person in that time.</sentence><sentence id="1315">This care look, and so on.</sentence><sentence id="1316">It was difficult to get rid of.</sentence><sentence id="1317">And the German conductor did come to her, checking the tickets, like to anybody.</sentence><sentence id="1318">And when he asked her, "Bitte, die Fahrkarte," which "Please, where is your ticket?",</sentence><sentence id="1319">she did turn over and she said, "Bitte, Ich habe"-- "Yes, please, I have."</sentence><sentence id="1320">If she would talk still German, it wouldn't be so bad.</sentence><sentence id="1321">But later she understood that she should pretend that she doesn't know German.</sentence><sentence id="1322">And she started to back 6 off...she was a pretty girl and he did want to talk to her and she start to talk half German "til she learned a few words in <span class="BUILDING">school</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1323">Anyway, she convinced the German that she doesn't know German much and so he left.</sentence><sentence id="1324">The Germans weren't so really sharp, but she arose the suspicion of the Ukrainians.</sentence><sentence id="1325">We're traveling with those.</sentence><sentence id="1326">And soon Ukrainian militia man did come asking her for the papers and I have done a basic mistake.</sentence><sentence id="1327">Up "til now, if I say a lie, I start to get red.</sentence><sentence id="1328">I start to stutter.</sentence><sentence id="1329">Even now, I start to stutter.</sentence><sentence id="1330">And when I was a kid, I was very shy.</sentence><sentence id="1331">In that point, when they start to look for more Jews because they discover this girl, instead to...to look around like another my neighbors did look, you know...the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">passengers</span>, I start to sweat, perspire.</sentence><sentence id="1332">My face did get...my face did get red and I didn't know what to do so I took a newspaper, pretend like I'm reading.</sentence><sentence id="1333">And this was even worse because then everybody was looking around and here's a guy reading a paper.</sentence><sentence id="1334">And didn't take long when my paper is taken away and I see in front of me a Ukrainian militiaman. "</sentence><sentence id="1335">What's your name?" "</sentence><sentence id="1336">Me.</sentence><sentence id="1337">Waldemar Ptaszek."</sentence><sentence id="1338">And I remember I added, "But in <span class="BUILDING">home</span> they called me "Waldek."</sentence><sentence id="1339">I told him this to make it more...at least I thought so, more truthful.</sentence><sentence id="1340">He took my paper.</sentence><sentence id="1341">He asked me for a document with a pictures which I don't have because I'm not full aged.</sentence><sentence id="1342">I'm under age.</sentence><sentence id="1343">I have only my birth certificate.</sentence><sentence id="1344">So he didn't know if I am Jewish or not, so he told me, "Come with me to the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">toilet</span>."</sentence><sentence id="1345">They had a proof...to check and see if you are circumcised because in <span class="COUNTRY">America</span> everybody practiced.</sentence><sentence id="1346">In <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>, only a Jew.</sentence><sentence id="1347">So they took me to the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">toilet</span> and told me to pull down the pants. ____</sentence><sentence id="1348">pulled down the pants.</sentence><sentence id="1349">They are looking.</sentence><sentence id="1350">Still can't find out.</sentence><sentence id="1351">Something is wrong here.</sentence><sentence id="1352">What was wrong?</sentence><sentence id="1353">Why weren't they able to find out?</sentence><sentence id="1354">Because two weeks before escaping, I did try to correct what my Rabbi or shochet, .... Who's doing the circumcisium?</sentence><sentence id="1355">I don't even know.</sentence><sentence id="1356">A rabbi?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1406">Q: Usually.</sentence><sentence id="1407">Rabbi or [mohel].</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1410">A: Whoever it is.</sentence><sentence id="1411">I tried to correct, what 13 years ago, 14 years ago, what somebody did do to me.</sentence><sentence id="1412">So I did...I did try to correct it with a string and with a tool and tie it.</sentence><sentence id="1413">The only result was in that time that everything was swollen and so they weren't able to...to recognize and it hurt me.</sentence><sentence id="1414">I wasn't able to urinate.</sentence><sentence id="1415">But..uh...it was...wasn't able to see, but obviously they had seen that somebody was manipulated over there, so they started talk to each other.</sentence><sentence id="1416">And after the professional...the professional result, the diagnosis was that Jew or not Jew, something is wrong, and he took me.</sentence><sentence id="1417">They took me.</sentence><sentence id="1418">Pulled back the pants.</sentence><sentence id="1419">The <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> stopped.</sentence><sentence id="1420">I went...they told us...they told me to go out and now I noticed they caught practically everybody...every one of us.</sentence><sentence id="1421">The...the whole group was caught, except one little boy. [</sentence><sentence id="1422">Velvole (ph)], he wasn't caught.</sentence><sentence id="1423">I don't why.</sentence><sentence id="1424">But he...he was caught later.</sentence><sentence id="1425">Anyway, they took us to the...uh...uh...<span class="BUILDING">SS office</span> where Gestapo is over there.</sentence><sentence id="1426"><span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Stryy</span> [Polish: <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="49.25" long="23.85">Stryj</span>] is a big <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> and there was one Gestapo is there and there was about five Ukrainians.</sentence><sentence id="1427">They told us to undress.</sentence><sentence id="1428">We undressed.</sentence><sentence id="1429">And at that time one Ukrainian hit me in my throat with the fist and I was start to choke and when he want to hit me again, the Gestapo man 7 start to yell at him, forbid to hit.</sentence><sentence id="1430">Yah.</sentence><sentence id="1431">It's true.</sentence><sentence id="1432">So he didn't beat us anymore when he forbid to beat us.</sentence><sentence id="1433">And after they checked our clothing and discovered some money, told us again to dress.</sentence><sentence id="1434">And they led us to...uh...like a little <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1435">We went in.</sentence><sentence id="1436">Locked the <span class="DLF">doors</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1437">It was dark <span class="NPIP">inside</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1438">They didn't say anything.</sentence><sentence id="1439">Sitting up about an hour, the <span class="DLF">door</span> opens a little bit, and you see a <span class="COUNTRY">Ukraine</span>...Ukrainian guard in front and he said, "You know what?</sentence><sentence id="1440">If you will give me some money, I will give you good advice.</sentence><sentence id="1441">I know, no matter what still something...he said, you still hide some money.</sentence><sentence id="1442">After all this....".</sentence><sentence id="1443">Which was true.</sentence><sentence id="1444">I had some money (laughing) still hidden where they weren't able to discover in...uh...but anyway Rappoport hearing this, had a glass case.</sentence><sentence id="1445">Opened the glass case and he put away this little lining and picked up about 50 marks or so hidden behind the lining of the glass case...eye glass case.</sentence><sentence id="1446">And did give...give it this Ukrainian.</sentence><sentence id="1447">Now the Ukrainian's giving us the advice.</sentence><sentence id="1448">He opened more the <span class="DLF">door</span>...a little bit more, so the light did come in.</sentence><sentence id="1449">And he said, "Look behind you."</sentence><sentence id="1450">Behind us was...was a <span class="DLF">window</span>...a <span class="DLF">bar window</span>, with bars.</sentence><sentence id="1451">And something was hanging from the <span class="DLF">bars</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1452">He said, "You see it?</sentence><sentence id="1453">This is long underwear.</sentence><sentence id="1454">Yesterday, they arrested a Jew like you are now arrested, and he hanged himself.</sentence><sentence id="1455">So my advice is you hang yourself.</sentence><sentence id="1456">One after another one, it will be better than this what is waiting...awaiting you when the boss will come."</sentence><sentence id="1457">The big shot.</sentence><sentence id="1458">Anyway, he closed the <span class="DLF">door</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1459">And we didn't take his advice.</sentence><sentence id="1460">In the evening they told us to go out and...uh.. we were about 12 people, and after a warning that we will be shot if we try to escape, they led us through the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Stryy</span> [Polish: <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="49.25" long="23.85">Stryj</span>] to another <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1461">People seeing us reacted different.</sentence><sentence id="1462">Some did laugh.</sentence><sentence id="1463">Some did joke.</sentence><sentence id="1464">Some did spit.</sentence><sentence id="1465">I've seen some faces which did maybe feel for us.</sentence><sentence id="1466">And finally, they took us to another <span class="BUILDING">jail</span> for criminal police.</sentence><sentence id="1467">This was...another <span class="BUILDING">jail</span> was a <span class="BUILDING">jail</span> which did belong to so-called "<span class="BUILDING">Kripo</span>." "</sentence><sentence id="1468"><span class="BUILDING">Kripo</span>" is Kriminalpolizei.</sentence><sentence id="1469">Because they were the people arresting us, which I found out later.</sentence><sentence id="1470">And...uh..over there, the same Rabinowicz who on the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>... uh...was talking with me, was moving back and forth...he was a hyper always.</sentence><sentence id="1471">He told me and another friend, [Velvole (ph), that if you have some still money, we should give him, he will bribe the guard.</sentence><sentence id="1472">Maybe we could sneak out.</sentence><sentence id="1473">And we have seen him a few times going out through the <span class="DLF">door</span> with a guard and coming in so I did give him some money.</sentence><sentence id="1474">I still had some hidden money, and I cut off the seam and took out.</sentence><sentence id="1475">I just mention it because later it will come up again.</sentence><sentence id="1476">Being in this <span class="BUILDING">jail</span> for a couple of days, they again transferred us to the big <span class="BUILDING">city jail</span>, big four-story <span class="BUILDING">building</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1477">In the <span class="BUILDING">city jail</span>, we were in that time about eight people.</sentence><sentence id="1478">The woman they took someplace else.</sentence><sentence id="1479">And was in the <span class="INT_SPACE">third floor</span>, cell number 27 or 37.</sentence><sentence id="1480">I think 27.</sentence><sentence id="1481">And...uh...who was in this <span class="INT_SPACE">cell</span>?</sentence><sentence id="1482">Were about four Jews...one...two Ukrainians, one person we didn't know he's Jewish or not.</sentence><sentence id="1483">Weren't able to discover, so he was...uh...he did get soup...Red Cross soup.</sentence><sentence id="1484">Because the <span class="BUILDING">Red Cross</span> helped us with food, but only for the Christians--not for Jews.</sentence><sentence id="1485">So he received it.</sentence><sentence id="1486">Some people recognized...some from the <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>...did hold him for a Christian, some not.</sentence><sentence id="1487">Anyway, he had...he wasn't established, not there...not there.</sentence><sentence id="1488">He was sick.</sentence><sentence id="1489">He was laying in the <span class="NPIP">corner</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1490">And there was a German.</sentence><sentence id="1491">I'll tell you about this German.</sentence><sentence id="1492">It was big <span class="INT_SPACE">cell</span>, pretty clean.</sentence><sentence id="1493">We had four <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">mattresses</span> from straw, stacked a whole day one atop of another one.</sentence><sentence id="1494">In the night time, we did lay it on the <span class="INT_SPACE">floor</span>, and we slept. (</sentence><sentence id="1495">Pause) And it was...it was also...it was there a lawyer from the city of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Stryy</span> [Polish: Stryj]--a Jewish...Jewish lawyer.</sentence><sentence id="1496">He...1 8 remember he had a talent...uh...he took a...a...a...comb.</sentence><sentence id="1497">He was able to play a comb.</sentence><sentence id="1498">And when he played the Ukrainians would listen in especial; night time they always asked him...knocked on the middle of the <span class="DLF">door</span>, "Play a little bit."</sentence><sentence id="1499">And because of it, they next day they did give us more soup or whatever.</sentence><sentence id="1500">So he has done it.</sentence><sentence id="1501">But...uh..later, we had a custom...especially, the first days to tell stories of our past.</sentence><sentence id="1502">And everybody tell...told his story.</sentence><sentence id="1503">When it became my turn, I told him.</sentence><sentence id="1504">I didn't have much to say.</sentence><sentence id="1505">I was born <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> and I am out from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1506">But Alvin Lippmann had an interesting story to tell.</sentence><sentence id="1507">Alvin Lippmann...uh...he was about...over 50 years old, very straight.</sentence><sentence id="1508">I mean he kept himself straight, slim, always his...his...coat, had a coat was buttoned and every day, he get up in the same hour and he was really...could be a military man.</sentence><sentence id="1509">Now at that point... hate even to tell the story.</sentence><sentence id="1510">I hate to tell my whole story, to tell you the truth.</sentence><sentence id="1511">I must again interject something.</sentence><sentence id="1512">Why do I hate to tell?</sentence><sentence id="1513">Because there's so many unbelievable scenes and situations that if I tell everything, my whole story be...becomes unbelievable.</sentence><sentence id="1514">So this is one of these...of these stories which I usually hate to tell, but I will tell it to you.</sentence><sentence id="1515">You know what?</sentence><sentence id="1516">I wrote my story in...in...in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1517">I wrote it in the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1518">I wrote it in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1519">It was many times lost, discovered.</sentence><sentence id="1520">When I went out, I wrote again.</sentence><sentence id="1521">They promised my story to hide pages so I could recover after the war, which I did recover about 30 percent of it.</sentence><sentence id="1522">In 1952 from the 30 percent I... did special...applied a job I should have a lot of time.</sentence><sentence id="1523">And in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span> lused to work as a social director.</sentence><sentence id="1524">In the months of..uh...uh...November, October, there wasn't...there was really quiet in the <span class="BUILDING">resort places</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1525">So I...I did fill in mine diary.</sentence><sentence id="1526">And later, <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>...they want to publish it.</sentence><sentence id="1527">But they did want to make so many corrections that I didn't allow it.</sentence><sentence id="1528">And later when I went to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1529">They made me...let me go but this manuscript should stay in the <span class="COUNTRY">country</span>, so I managed to smuggle out a manuscript to the Jewish...uh...consulate in...in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>, and I later picked it up in...in <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1530">But why Iam telling you this story.</sentence><sentence id="1531">Now I have a diary which I've written, in the dangerous, <span class="NPIP">places</span> my whole life.</sentence><sentence id="1532">What should I do with it?</sentence><sentence id="1533">So I go to a Jewish survivor from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1534">Actually, he was the Secretary of the Jewish organization of the Auschwitz people in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1535">I go to him and said, "Listen, I would like you should look it over, read it over and tell me what you feel about this."</sentence><sentence id="1536">Three weeks later I visit him and ask him, "So, what do you think?"</sentence><sentence id="1537">And he looks at me and said, "Oh, Yah.</sentence><sentence id="1538">Yah.</sentence><sentence id="1539">You have a fantasy.</sentence><sentence id="1540">Never heard of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1541">Revolt?</sentence><sentence id="1542">Never heard."</sentence><sentence id="1543">I was beaten many times in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1544">Beaten by the SS.</sentence><sentence id="1545">It didn't hurt me as much as if he was.</sentence><sentence id="1546">And what as if he was done?</sentence><sentence id="1547">He done this: that for another 20 years, I didn't touch it.</sentence><sentence id="1548">So, if he didn't believe me, who could believe me?</sentence><sentence id="1549">But later, I come to understand that people being in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span> and <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="51.021507" long="11.249238">Buchenwald</span>, they were actual limited.</sentence><sentence id="1550">They have seen only their own circle.</sentence><sentence id="1551">And in many cases, ours like hiding in the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>, hiding and hiding was much worse than...than...than a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>, than a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">concentration camp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1552">Depends which kind.</sentence><sentence id="1553">So anyway, but nevertheless it had such an effect that I put it away for 20 years.</sentence><sentence id="1554">I didn't do anything.</sentence><sentence id="1555">Still in <span class="COUNTRY">America</span>, when the 9 Holocaust film did come out, I felt maybe I should do it.</sentence><sentence id="1556">So I started on it.</sentence><sentence id="1557">Now, why also...I hate ...I hate to...to publish it or whatever, because it's so...a story like this.</sentence><sentence id="1558">It's hard to believe which I will tell you.</sentence><sentence id="1559">Alvin Lippmann, his story.</sentence><sentence id="1560">Alvin Lippmann was a German officer, a Hauptmann [NB: Captain].</sentence><sentence id="1561">He fought in the Polish campaign, "39.</sentence><sentence id="1562">He fought in the Russian campaign; but unfortunately, he had a Jewish wife and two children.</sentence><sentence id="1563">His wife in the beginning of the war--this his story--in the beginning of the war, was under the protection of the Wehrmacht because her husband was a German officer.</sentence><sentence id="1564">There was a time when the families were under protection.</sentence><sentence id="1565">So later the Gestapo told him, "Either divorce your wife.</sentence><sentence id="1566">It's okay.</sentence><sentence id="1567">Or get out from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Wehrmacht</span>."</sentence><sentence id="1568">He decided to get out.</sentence><sentence id="1569">They let him from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Wehrmacht</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1570">The moment he went out from the Wehrmacht, his...his family was not protected anymore.</sentence><sentence id="1571">And when they resettled the Jews to <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>, they settled his wife and children to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Zamosc</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1572">And he left with them.</sentence><sentence id="1573">He didn't want to leave his family, and they let him go.</sentence><sentence id="1574">In <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Zamosc</span>, they made him a commandant of the Jewish police, militia.</sentence><sentence id="1575">Until...and he did survive until the last Aktion.</sentence><sentence id="1576">The last Aktion was, they took away his wife and children, but they let him go.</sentence><sentence id="1577">He was a German.</sentence><sentence id="1578">So he wasn't able to protect either his wife or his children.</sentence><sentence id="1579">That time he did try...he didn't want to go back to <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1580">He did want to go to <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span>, and he did try to make his way to <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1581">Anyway, he was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Stryy</span> when they arrested him.</sentence><sentence id="1582">And he told us this story.</sentence><sentence id="1583">Not only this, now the point--which is all--he taught...when General Ludendorff made this "Putsch" with Hitler, you know this story, ...he took with him a company of German soldiers.</sentence><sentence id="1584">Who was in this <span class="BUILDING">company</span>?</sentence><sentence id="1585">The jung Leutnant [NB: Lieutenant], Alvin Lippmann.</sentence><sentence id="1586">So after the war, when Hitler was in the power, he did send a letter with his signature, probably wasn't an original.</sentence><sentence id="1587">It was a stamp.</sentence><sentence id="1588">It was from the <span class="BUILDING">headquarters</span> of NSDAP, the Nazi organization.</sentence><sentence id="1589">A thank you letter to...to the old fighters, all the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Kamaraden</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1590">A thank you letter for his work for the Nazis, so he did get this letter.</sentence><sentence id="1591">So he tells us this story, and the Jewish lawyer was immediately excited, said, "Listen, well, we have the documents.</sentence><sentence id="1592">He has all the evidence.</sentence><sentence id="1593">He has a Iron Cross.</sentence><sentence id="1594">He has everything!"</sentence><sentence id="1595">And so he...he told him, "Listen, you better write a letter to General Governor Frank in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Krakow</span> and you should be ...first of all, you're a German."</sentence><sentence id="1596">Second, he explained...he explained away this.</sentence><sentence id="1597">And he wrote a letter.</sentence><sentence id="1598">Now, I must go back a little bit.</sentence><sentence id="1599">While we are...in this... while we are in this <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>, in this <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>, we were very hungry.</sentence><sentence id="1600">We didn't get much food, but it was quiet.</sentence><sentence id="1601">Nobody did bother us.</sentence><sentence id="1602">No...no... nobody did beat us.</sentence><sentence id="1603">But once a nighttime, we heard a scream.</sentence><sentence id="1604"><span class="NPIP">Outside</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1605">So I went to the <span class="DLF">window</span> and looked down and right a big <span class="BUILDING">jail</span> was another...uh...uh...<span class="BUILDING">house</span>, two-floor <span class="BUILDING">house</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1606">And I observed once in awhile that some people are brought in and...uh...and there was a rumor that they are Jews caught on Aryan, Christian papers or otherwise.</sentence><sentence id="1607">And...uh...til...til except when the <span class="BUILDING">jail</span> would be full, when there would be Aktion to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Belzec</span>, or to another <span class="NPIP">place</span>, they take them out.</sentence><sentence id="1608">So the scream was exactly from...when they tried to take them out from this <span class="BUILDING">jail</span> to the...to the <span class="DLF">yard</span>, some woman started to scream.</sentence><sentence id="1609">And I was looking down and I was wondering, "Oh, God, Why we are separate?</sentence><sentence id="1610">I'm a Jew too, but they keep us separate ...God forbid they should take us...they should attach us."</sentence><sentence id="1611">They took all...all of them away, but our <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1612">Our <span class="INT_SPACE">cell</span> wasn't touched.</sentence><sentence id="1613">Now I'm going back.</sentence><sentence id="1614">Now, 0 Alvin Lippmann's letter goes out.</sentence><sentence id="1615">Not long, about three days later, we heard some steps in the <span class="INT_SPACE">hallways</span> of the <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1616">Even this <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>, we talk only Polish or Ukrainian.</sentence><sentence id="1617">There were no Germans personnel.</sentence><sentence id="1618">Once in awhile a German showed up so the whole <span class="BUILDING">jail</span> was under guard.</sentence><sentence id="1619">And we heard....we could... we could hear some changes.</sentence><sentence id="1620">Everybody "Achtung!</sentence><sentence id="1621">Achtung!Achtung!"</sentence><sentence id="1622">in the <span class="INT_SPACE">hallways</span> and we understood some big shots are coming.</sentence><sentence id="1623">There are <span class="DLF">steps</span> and steps and the <span class="DLF">steps</span> stopped in front of our <span class="INT_SPACE">cell</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1624"><span class="INT_SPACE">Cell</span>'s open, and there are two tall guys with the...uh...death head on their caps.</sentence><sentence id="1625">You know it's SS, or Gestapo.</sentence><sentence id="1626">And they opened the <span class="DLF">door</span>, look at us and immediately "Herr Lippmann.</sentence><sentence id="1627">I understood immediately that there's something...they don't talk...they don't say to a guy they want to kill "Herr." "</sentence><sentence id="1628">Herr Lippmann," so he immediately stood up and they told him, "Take your stuff and come with us.</sentence><sentence id="1629">Please take your stuff."</sentence><sentence id="1630">And so he took whatever he had with him and another look around and they asked Mr. Krewl (ph) ... Krewl (ph) was the head of the <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>, Pole.</sentence><sentence id="1631">They asked him, "What are the other people doing here doing?"</sentence><sentence id="1632">And he explained that this <span class="INT_SPACE">cell</span> belonged to the criminal police and...uh...they are two Ukrainians and one, we don't know who it is, and there are four Jews and so on and so.</sentence><sentence id="1633">So the SS immediately put everything in order.</sentence><sentence id="1634">They told the Ukrainians to leave them and this guy who was not a Pole, not a Jew, they tell him he's Jewish...they didn't care.</sentence><sentence id="1635">If they kill....even they kill a Pole, what do they...what do they mean.</sentence><sentence id="1636">What do they care?</sentence><sentence id="1637">They classified him as a Jew, and they told all of us to go to the...they should transfer us to the to another <span class="BUILDING">building</span> which in between time was again collecting some Jews.</sentence><sentence id="1638">And you wouldn't believe it.</sentence><sentence id="1639">When they took us in, me and [Velvole (ph)] and another one to the other <span class="INT_SPACE">cell</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1640">It was terrible.</sentence><sentence id="1641">I remember it was one <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> maybe like this.</sentence><sentence id="1642">Full of people.</sentence><sentence id="1643">Dirty.</sentence><sentence id="1644">Was no <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">toilet</span>, but there was a barrel from herring.</sentence><sentence id="1645">Empty barrel.</sentence><sentence id="1646">And this used...this was as a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">toilet</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1647">I think it was a couple dead bodies laying by it.</sentence><sentence id="1648">I still remember if it was...it was a Christian.</sentence><sentence id="1649">I don't know if it was a Pole or a Ukrainian.</sentence><sentence id="1650">I think so, a Ukrainian.</sentence><sentence id="1651">It was already the winter time and he was with this peasant coat, and he was praying to "Matka Boska [the Mother of God]," to Mother Mary.</sentence><sentence id="1652">And praying and praying.</sentence><sentence id="1653">The whole day he was praying.</sentence><sentence id="1654">He was treated with deep...deep respect.</sentence><sentence id="1655">Uh...We had people, strong men, in our <span class="INT_SPACE">cell</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1656">When lunch time did come and they threw in a sack with bread, and the strong man, he's supposed to divide.</sentence><sentence id="1657">He didn't give everybody what belongs to him, a quart...of loaf of bread, but he put in his hand and right he breaked up at least half.</sentence><sentence id="1658">But he can do anything.</sentence><sentence id="1659">He was the law of the fist.</sentence><sentence id="1660">But this man, the Christian man, he was so much respected because he helped the Jews that he...he didn't even need to stand in <span class="DLF">line</span> for this bread.</sentence><sentence id="1661">It was delivered to him.</sentence><sentence id="1662">Uh...uh...He wasn't biggest.</sentence><sentence id="1663">I mean, we respected him because he did help us.</sentence><sentence id="1664">Try at least.</sentence><sentence id="1665">Now he's in the same... Well, I remember this.</sentence><sentence id="1666">Now, I didn't tell you this, but back still in the big <span class="INT_SPACE">cell</span>...in the first <span class="INT_SPACE">cell</span>, I did become very friendly with a person called Zellinger.</sentence><sentence id="1667">He was a very rich fellow from the ghetto of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Stryy</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1668">He was arrested.</sentence><sentence id="1669">I don't know from what reason.</sentence><sentence id="1670">But he received packages from his wife in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1671">And he helped me.</sentence><sentence id="1672">When he...ever he received, he did give me...the package.</sentence><sentence id="1673">And we became very friendly.</sentence><sentence id="1674">His wife bribed the [Ogelobo (ph)], [Ogelobo (ph)] is like the guard...the Ukrainian guard, and he received many times letters.</sentence><sentence id="1675">The guard called him out, 1 give him the letter...called him <span class="NPIP">outside</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1676">Anyway, he immediately...they let him come out...when...when they took him out, they did give him a better <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>, a better <span class="INT_SPACE">cell</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1677">But me, the rest of them, the rest of us, were in this particular, miserable <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1678">Next day, they called my name.</sentence><sentence id="1679">They called [Velvole's (ph)] name.</sentence><sentence id="1680">We were called <span class="NPIP">outside</span> and pushed into another <span class="INT_SPACE">cell</span> where <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Zellinger</span> was.</sentence><sentence id="1681">What happened?</sentence><sentence id="1682">Zellinger did give a bribe to them.... The other <span class="INT_SPACE">cell</span> was already a <span class="INT_SPACE">cell</span> for people which had the means--doctors, lawyers from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span>--and there was no hunger over there.</sentence><sentence id="1683">It was clean, and there was some business going on with the Polish prisoners.</sentence><sentence id="1684">We put in a...a...a pot with the string down and the Polish prisoners put in some...uh...meat or whatever, sausage, and we threw out the money.</sentence><sentence id="1685">It was some business.</sentence><sentence id="1686">So it was a different atmosphere.</sentence><sentence id="1687">So Zellinger helped me.</sentence><sentence id="1688">Once I remember a fellow in this particular <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1689">We were waiting for a next <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">transport</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1690">We know that the next time will be we will be killed the moment the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">transport</span> is ready.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1975">Q: We need to keep moving a little.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1977">A: Yah.</sentence><sentence id="1978">Okay.</sentence><sentence id="1979">So, I will skip this story.</sentence><sentence id="1980">The point is this.</sentence><sentence id="1981">Once Zellinger received a letter from his wife through the guard that...uh...tomorrow a doctor will come asking for sick people.</sentence><sentence id="1982">What's happened?</sentence><sentence id="1983">We did get sick...sick on the...typhus that broke out.</sentence><sentence id="1984">But we were afraid that if we tell the doctors that some people..., the Germans that some people are sick, we...we know what kind of medicine they have for us.</sentence><sentence id="1985">So we were afraid, but we notified the Judenrat.</sentence><sentence id="1986">And the...the Judenrat bribed the...the...the Germans...it's look like, they should allow to take out a few people from <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1987">Anyway, Zellinger did received a letter from his wife that when the doctor comes, he should not be afraid to say he's sick.</sentence><sentence id="1988">And Zellinger told me that.</sentence><sentence id="1989">And when the next day, the doctor did come, I did go to the doctor time, and told them that I am sick.</sentence><sentence id="1990">The doctor looked at me and he said, "Oh, there's more sick than you."</sentence><sentence id="1991">Up "til now, the Germans they didn't know, because when there was a roll call in the morning, everybody was able to support.</sentence><sentence id="1992">Was sort of a tight <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>, anyway.</sentence><sentence id="1993">Uh...So I pushed my way...I took a thermometer and rubbed it in my shirt and I knocked it down [up] to about 41 celsius; I should be dead in that temperature, but was so scared to start to get it back and anyway through my manipulation the silver <span class="NPIP">inside</span> did break down in a few <span class="NPIP">places</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1994">So...but, I was...very panicky, but I managed to put put it at 38 celsius, and I go back to the doctor and the doctor still didn't want to accept me so I went to his helper and I remember I had 20 zlotys.</sentence><sentence id="1995">I did give him 20 zlotys.</sentence><sentence id="1996">I remember punching my chest to make red spots because I know my brother was sick of the typhus in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span> that the symptoms for typhus is red spots on the chest.</sentence><sentence id="1997">Anyway, the 20 zlotys helped me.</sentence><sentence id="1998">He pushed me <span class="NPIP">outside</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1999">They were allowed to take out a certain amount of people, about 20 people from that <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2000">So I was, Zellinger they didn't accept him, but they accepted me.</sentence><sentence id="2001">And now they were going to take us out.</sentence><sentence id="2002">The <span class="DLF">gates</span> from the <span class="BUILDING">jail</span> opened, and they take us to the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2003">Now, the...the <span class="BUILDING">jail</span> didn't have a <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2004">But the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span> had.</sentence><sentence id="2005">And while the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span> was shrinking, the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Stryy ghetto</span>, the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> was out of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2006">So they took us to that <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2007">In one <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> or two <span class="INT_SPACE">rooms</span>, they did...they restrict only the people from the <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2008">And the rest was...uh...locked up and guards were standing around now, too... Jewish guards, Jewish policja.</sentence><sentence id="2009">So...but now we're 2 going <span class="NPIP">outside</span> and it was winter.</sentence><sentence id="2010">I remember going through <span class="DLF">streets</span> of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Stryy</span> and thinking, "Should Irun now?</sentence><sentence id="2011">Should I...." because the <span class="BUILDING">Jewish policia</span>...they were only guarding.</sentence><sentence id="2012">There was no Germans.</sentence><sentence id="2013">But they were in front with the Jewish...uh..nurses, and they didn't give a damn about us, thinking that we are sick.</sentence><sentence id="2014">And was a ideal time to jump out and just go.</sentence><sentence id="2015">But I...I did look for a partner.</sentence><sentence id="2016">I didn't have a penny and didn't know where to go.</sentence><sentence id="2017">So I noticed another fellow who I thought maybe he is simulating sicknesses too, and I told him, "Listen, do you want to run?"</sentence><sentence id="2018">And he told me, "Don't do it now.</sentence><sentence id="2019">Let go to the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2020">My father's in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span> and my father will come.</sentence><sentence id="2021">He...will have money and everything else."</sentence><sentence id="2022">So L...I listened to him.</sentence><sentence id="2023">So now we're in this <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> I explained, this <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2024">Visitors from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> were able to come in, but we weren't able to go out with the Jewish militia... uh... uh ...watch us.</sentence><sentence id="2025">It didn't take long.</sentence><sentence id="2026">He was really sick.</sentence><sentence id="2027">So I wasn't able to go along later.</sentence><sentence id="2028">I was sick.</sentence><sentence id="2029">I don't want to go into any particulars, but I was sick. (</sentence><sentence id="2030">Sigh) Now, one evening at 4 o'clock, the doctor comes in without his hat.</sentence><sentence id="2031">I still remember.</sentence><sentence id="2032">And he said, "All prisoners from <span class="BUILDING">jail</span> should go out from the <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> and go across the <span class="DLF">yard</span> to the next...uh ...next <span class="INT_SPACE">apartment</span>...next <span class="BUILDING">house</span>...__ <span class="BUILDING">house</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2033">So I wanted to get up and I did get up and this was about January 8, 1943.</sentence><sentence id="2034">And I go out and I...I don't remember now what's happened, what's make me to turn back.</sentence><sentence id="2035">I had a big white skirt--shirt, long shirt--and go out and it was cold and I remember I felt my feet were...my sole was like burning from snow, from the frost.</sentence><sentence id="2036">Either this make me turn back or I notice a German soldier standing next to this next <span class="BUILDING">building</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2037">Anyway, I turned back, went back to my <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bed</span> and hide under the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bed</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2038">Hide under the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bed</span>; takes maybe three minutes, I hear somebody comes in.</sentence><sentence id="2039">I looked from under the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bed</span>, and I see a Jewish policeman.</sentence><sentence id="2040">Now it's a Jew, no matter what.</sentence><sentence id="2041">I did move out and said, "Listen.</sentence><sentence id="2042">What's happened here?"</sentence><sentence id="2043">He told me, "You here?"</sentence><sentence id="2044">I said, "Yes."</sentence><sentence id="2045">He said, "Well, then, don't be afraid.</sentence><sentence id="2046">You will hear some shooting, but be quiet."</sentence><sentence id="2047">He went out, and later was some shooting, screaming.</sentence><sentence id="2048">And nobody did come back; except a couple of hours later, I see the doctor comes back.</sentence><sentence id="2049">And like a...before the doctor come back, I was ready to escape.</sentence><sentence id="2050">What's happened?</sentence><sentence id="2051">When we were in <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>...in the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>, everybody was forced to give up the clothing to the dis... disinfection, but I managed not to give up.</sentence><sentence id="2052">I did give up a shirt, but the rest was hidden under my <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">mattress</span> with...uh ...my idea to escape.</sentence><sentence id="2053">So while...shooting was finished and nobody...uh...did come in, I did dress myself slowly from the stuff under the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">mattress</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2054">It was no militia now watching us because everybody's supposed to be killed, and I want to go out, but I was so shaky that my movement...] still was sick, that I...I've seen that I wouldn't go too far.</sentence><sentence id="2055">They will recognize me immediately, so I went back under the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bed</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2056">Later, I see that the doctor comes in.</sentence><sentence id="2057">So I move out and say, "Oh, Doctor."</sentence><sentence id="2058">And he asks...sees me and said, "Oh, How...what are you doing here?"</sentence><sentence id="2059">And I told him what I have done.</sentence><sentence id="2060">And he said, "No, it's...it's impossible."</sentence><sentence id="2061">Because they killed everybody from <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2062">There were 20 people.</sentence><sentence id="2063">They killed everybody.</sentence><sentence id="2064">So he started to check.</sentence><sentence id="2065">What's happened?When it's the high point of the typhus, there's a time when people run like in high fever.</sentence><sentence id="2066">They lose their conscious.</sentence><sentence id="2067">They just run.</sentence><sentence id="2068">I think it is about the tenth day of the sickness when the crisis comes.</sentence><sentence id="2069">And many times while we were in this...uh ...in this <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>, from the neighboring <span class="INT_SPACE">rooms</span> because neighboring <span class="INT_SPACE">rooms</span> was Jews from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>, they did try to run in.</sentence><sentence id="2070">3 Many times they did run in..in our restricted <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>, but the Jewish policja pushed them back.</sentence><sentence id="2071">Probably every day happened something like that.</sentence><sentence id="2072">They would start to run so when the doctor was checking, he noticed that a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bed</span> from the adjoining <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> is empty because he counted the bodies.</sentence><sentence id="2073">There was 20 bodies.</sentence><sentence id="2074">If the Germans would kill only 19, they would look for me.</sentence><sentence id="2075">But they were 20.</sentence><sentence id="2076">So what's happened...what's happened is this..is the doctor figured out....that <span class="INT_SPACE">cell</span>...this guy, Ledermann and I...we didn't know...he...many times he did try to get in the last few days to our... everybody's gone.</sentence><sentence id="2077">There was no guard.</sentence><sentence id="2078">He's gone.</sentence><sentence id="2079">And he took my <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2080">So he told me, "Tom, you go in Ledermann's <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bed</span>, and from now on you're not Blatt.</sentence><sentence id="2081">You're <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ledermann</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2082">So in this way, I managed to go out from the <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>, and not be a prisoner.</sentence><sentence id="2083">Later, I don't want to go into details again, I was healthy already and was ready to go out from this <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> and the moment I did go out...I was ready to go out, the Jewish policeman did come.</sentence><sentence id="2084">He practically see me every day that I can go out from the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2085">I must give him money.</sentence><sentence id="2086">I says, "But listen, I don't have money." "</sentence><sentence id="2087">No.</sentence><sentence id="2088">You don't have it?</sentence><sentence id="2089">Try to steal.</sentence><sentence id="2090">Do whatever you want.</sentence><sentence id="2091">I need money.</sentence><sentence id="2092">Because I saved you."</sentence><sentence id="2093">I said, "How did you save me?</sentence><sentence id="2094">I did see you and did come out for help to you.</sentence><sentence id="2095">You didn't save me."</sentence><sentence id="2096">Anyway, this policeman, this militiaman was my tormentor.</sentence><sentence id="2097">And...uh...I wasn't able to go out from the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2098">And the doctor told me I must go out.</sentence><sentence id="2099">You...you can take...we need the <span class="NPIP">place</span> for somebody else and I tried to avoid him, but he took away this <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bed</span> from me and he took away the food from me, so I was stealing in night time.</sentence><sentence id="2100">Finally, they caught me.</sentence><sentence id="2101">They grabbed me and they simply threw me out from <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2102">I didn't even go 200, half a mile when a militia man, another militia man I didn't never know...a Jewish militia man did run after me. "</sentence><sentence id="2103">You dirty...you go go back.</sentence><sentence id="2104">What do you mean?</sentence><sentence id="2105">You will escape from us?"</sentence><sentence id="2106">And (laughing) took me back to this <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2107">Not only they took me back, but listen.</sentence><sentence id="2108">They had again a group from <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2109">Separate.</sentence><sentence id="2110">He put me with them, where I was in the beginning.</sentence><sentence id="2111">Anyway, as I start to cry, and the doctor comes to visiting and he noticed, "Listen, I just threw you out.</sentence><sentence id="2112">What are you doing?"</sentence><sentence id="2113">So I start to cry, "What's will happen, will happen?"</sentence><sentence id="2114">And told the whole story.</sentence><sentence id="2115">Told the whole story, so he called up Mr. Stark.</sentence><sentence id="2116">He was the head of the Jewish...this probably you could check with any sources.... He called out the Jewish militia, and Mr. Stark, the commandant, did come and I remember he called in this...this tormentor of mine, the Jewish policeman who didn't let me out, and he beat him up over there.</sentence><sentence id="2117">Yah.</sentence><sentence id="2118">And they told me I could go.</sentence><sentence id="2119">And I...then when everything is legal.</sentence><sentence id="2120">I asked him even for my jacket which I...which the janitor used to wear.</sentence><sentence id="2121">Okay.</sentence><sentence id="2122">I went out to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span> and was a free man in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2123">I mean free, I was not anymore a jailman.</sentence><sentence id="2124">Now I find out that Izbica are still Jews and my parents are over there.</sentence><sentence id="2125">So I wrote them a letter.</sentence><sentence id="2126">I find this out while...when I was still in <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2127">I wrote them a letter and give the address to the...the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2128">And there was a answer.</sentence><sentence id="2129">Even when I was in the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>, there was a answer.</sentence><sentence id="2130">But my name wasn't that time Blatt.</sentence><sentence id="2131">It was <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ledermann</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2132">And I forgot to tell this my 4 parents.</sentence><sentence id="2133">Anyway, I wrote another letter, another letter.</sentence><sentence id="2134">In that time the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span> of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Stryy</span> was half empty.</sentence><sentence id="2135">And I did live with that Czech boy in one <span class="INT_SPACE">apartment</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2136">I didn't need food because if some reason even in that time was so many food in empty <span class="BUILDING">houses</span>..., it was an Aktion in between time which I survived by hiding in somebody's <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2137">But I did want some money to buy a ticket to go back to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>, and I didn't know how to get the money.</sentence><sentence id="2138">So I did go to the Judenrat, and told one official over there if he could help me.</sentence><sentence id="2139">My parents are alive in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span> and I...I need some money.</sentence><sentence id="2140">I need 20 zlotys. "</sentence><sentence id="2141">Why do you need it?" "</sentence><sentence id="2142">I want to buy food."</sentence><sentence id="2143">He went in.</sentence><sentence id="2144">He came out with a paper that I could have free food for two weeks in the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2145">Now, I wasn't able to... didn't tell them I want to escape.</sentence><sentence id="2146">I took this paper.</sentence><sentence id="2147">I never went to the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2148">That particular...I have a strong intuition always.</sentence><sentence id="2149">That particular morning, and I'ma long sleeper...that particular morning I did get up... remember 7 o'clock in the morning and said, "I'm going to the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>."</sentence><sentence id="2150">I started the foot go...and I didn't even wait for a Jewish militia man to take me to the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> because the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> was outside the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span> and you were not allowed to go alone, only on the assistance from Jewish militia.</sentence><sentence id="2151">I went alone.</sentence><sentence id="2152">Come to the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> and looked for some people which I will get...get friendly before.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2330">Q: Let's stop [and pause please.</sentence><sentence id="2331">We need to stop anyway.</sentence><sentence id="2332">Let's take a break for a moment. ] [</sentence><sentence id="2333">NB: text in preceding brackets not apparent on videotape]</sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2334">Q: Okay.</sentence><sentence id="2335">Let's pick it up now where you left off.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2338">A: Yah.</sentence><sentence id="2339">So I didn't receive any money from the Judenrat but... uh..this...uh...paper that I could eat, if I want to, in the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> and in that particular day, I had some feeling I must go to the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> and went to the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> to visit my friends which I know from before.</sentence><sentence id="2340">And L..going toward a <span class="BUILDING">office</span> to ask for somebody and I notice over there some people, I notice a woman sitting and I'm going out.</sentence><sentence id="2341">While I'm going in the <span class="INT_SPACE">hallway</span>, somebody is behind me, running behind me..."Mister!</sentence><sentence id="2342">Mister!</sentence><sentence id="2343">Wait a second!"</sentence><sentence id="2344">I stopped and this was the doctor who in the beginning, who changed my name to Ledermann, and I told the story.</sentence><sentence id="2345">I said, but he didn't remember already my first...my true name.</sentence><sentence id="2346">He said, "Aren't you...what's your name?" "</sentence><sentence id="2347">Blatt." "</sentence><sentence id="2348">Oh, yah.</sentence><sentence id="2349">Blatt.</sentence><sentence id="2350">Aren't you Blatt?""</sentence><sentence id="2351">Yah." "</sentence><sentence id="2352">Oh.</sentence><sentence id="2353">How are you son?</sentence><sentence id="2354">Listen, go to the <span class="BUILDING">office</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2355">Somebody is waiting for you."</sentence><sentence id="2356">So I go to the <span class="BUILDING">office</span> and he said, "The lady is waiting for you."</sentence><sentence id="2357">I look at the lady.</sentence><sentence id="2358">I don't know her.</sentence><sentence id="2359">And she looks at me.</sentence><sentence id="2360">She doesn't know me either.</sentence><sentence id="2361">So she told me to sit...sit down and she said, "You know who I am?</sentence><sentence id="2362">I'm Ola.</sentence><sentence id="2363">I was your nanny when you was a baby...milk nanny...nanny.</sentence><sentence id="2364">I mean, probably my mother didn't have milk or whatever.</sentence><sentence id="2365">And I remember as a child.</sentence><sentence id="2366">I remember some Ola, Ola, they mention in our <span class="BUILDING">house</span>. "</sentence><sentence id="2367">I'm Ola."</sentence><sentence id="2368">So she said, "uh...First you must prove to me that you are really Toivi."</sentence><sentence id="2369">So she start to ask me how is Izbica look like and how my mother and my father look like and I passed the test, obviously, and she said, "Toivi, you sent a letter, and...uh...from the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2370">Your mother answered immediately, and the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> answered immediately again that "Tomasz Blatt died January... January 8, 1943, in the <span class="BUILDING">Jewish hospital</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Stryy</span>,"" because this way it was written in the... in the books. "</sentence><sentence id="2371">And later, you wrote 5 another letter and another letter and your parents were sure that somebody want to...to get some money, blackmail.</sentence><sentence id="2372">But your brother was so sure that you are alive that he didn't let your parents in peace.</sentence><sentence id="2373">So your parents decide to send me out to find my...find by myself.</sentence><sentence id="2374">And while I was sitting here, asking the doctor told me that he remembered something about Blatt... Ledermann...something, and later you walk in and you walk out and the doctor was running after you."</sentence><sentence id="2375">So this is another of these stories unbelievable.</sentence><sentence id="2376">But I tell you, every survivor has unbelievable story because it was un...unbelievable circumstances, the survivor's life.</sentence><sentence id="2377">Anyway, so she had some money she did give me immediately.</sentence><sentence id="2378">And she did give me a watch which my brother had.</sentence><sentence id="2379">And this...this was his treasure.</sentence><sentence id="2380">In fact I can remember the watch.</sentence><sentence id="2381">He wouldn't even let anybody touch, but he'd give it to her she should give it to me.</sentence><sentence id="2382">He was sure Iam alive.</sentence><sentence id="2383">So she says, "Now, we'll tell your parents and your parents will be in touch with you."</sentence><sentence id="2384">And she left.</sentence><sentence id="2385">The same day I went <span class="NPIP">outside</span>, the watch was taken by the Jewish policeman.</sentence><sentence id="2386">He met me.</sentence><sentence id="2387">He said, "Oh, you have a nice watch.</sentence><sentence id="2388">Give it to me."</sentence><sentence id="2389">And I did give it to him.</sentence><sentence id="2390">I didn't ask.</sentence><sentence id="2391">Now I was waiting.</sentence><sentence id="2392">L...I was sure that something will be done and it didn't take long.</sentence><sentence id="2393">Some middle...not the middle of the night...about 10 o'clock, a knock in the <span class="DLF">door</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2394">Somebody comes in.</sentence><sentence id="2395">Who comes in?</sentence><sentence id="2396"><span class="BUILDING">Krauser</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2397">The same... (laughing) Volksdeutsch who once didn't betray us.</sentence><sentence id="2398">He said, "Toivi, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Toivi</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2399">Oh, how are you doing?</sentence><sentence id="2400"><span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Toivi</span>, listen.</sentence><sentence id="2401">I did...I'm coming to take you to your parents."</sentence><sentence id="2402">I'm sure my parents paid him a lot of money to do it.</sentence><sentence id="2403">And he had actually a paper from the Landrat, from the district officials, that I'm allowed to travel with the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2404">Everything was legal.</sentence><sentence id="2405">So I, he...and they let me out through the <span class="DLF">gate</span> to the main <span class="DLF">gate</span> because I was with a German.</sentence><sentence id="2406">And we went to the <span class="BUILDING">train station</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2407">I was with the star...the Star of David and while I was waiting for the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>, hidden in a little <span class="BUILDING">house</span> close to the <span class="BUILDING">train station</span>, the shadow...uh...he went in to buy the tickets.</sentence><sentence id="2408">Soon he comes out and says, "Listen, Toivi, there's a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> leaving in a half an hour.</sentence><sentence id="2409">A regular <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2410">He stops in any <span class="BUILDING">stations</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2411">Some little Ukrainians, but I don't know if I will be able to protect you if something happened.</sentence><sentence id="2412">You were paid.</sentence><sentence id="2413">You could travel the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>, but nevertheless.</sentence><sentence id="2414">Now, there's another..." I mean this was a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> was leaving in about two hours. "</sentence><sentence id="2415">But there's another <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>," it was leaving in about 20 minutes, "which is a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">German train</span> from the <span class="REGION">Eastern Front</span> only for Germans.</sentence><sentence id="2416">If you want to go, just throw down you Star of David.</sentence><sentence id="2417">Come with me."</sentence><sentence id="2418">And he said, "It's actually more secure in the den of the lions than it is...".</sentence><sentence id="2419">And I said, "Okay."</sentence><sentence id="2420">Threw down the Star of David and went with him in, and a lot of hundred soldiers from the <span class="REGION">Eastern Front</span>...must have been 1943...we went in a <span class="INT_SPACE">compartment</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2421">I still remember a woman.</sentence><sentence id="2422">She was from the Todt Organization.</sentence><sentence id="2423">And there was two gendarmes in the green uniforms....1 know the gendarmes and the SS...I did know by the skull on the hat.</sentence><sentence id="2424">And they were sitting and talking and the woman did talk about...one guy was from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Essen</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2425">I know they did talk a lot about from the city of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Essen</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2426">But very shortly, and later they switched to the...to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Tunis</span>, what there was in that time...they did win some territory 6 in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Tunis</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2427">Anyway it was still going on...later the woman asked me if I want tea.</sentence><sentence id="2428">And he told me, Krausfer], "Don't talk much."</sentence><sentence id="2429">So I said, "Danke schen."</sentence><sentence id="2430">And he was angry I even said "Danke schen" there.</sentence><sentence id="2431">I mean in the eyes of Krauser.... But "Danke sch6n" was okay.</sentence><sentence id="2432">They didn't notice anything.</sentence><sentence id="2433">Uh... Until later, they...across me, the soldier did pick up a piece of chocolate he did give me, and everybody fall asleep.</sentence><sentence id="2434">So as a German I arrived, because this was a fast <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2435">He didn't stop in any <span class="BUILDING">station</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2436">He didn't stop in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> either, because it was a small stop.</sentence><sentence id="2437">We stopped past <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> 12 kilometers, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="50.984123" long="23.171871">Krasnystaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2438">Over there we went down.</sentence><sentence id="2439">And here the...Krauser said, "Tom.</sentence><sentence id="2440">Now here we must part.</sentence><sentence id="2441">You must go by foot 12...12 kilometers and I can't be with you anymore...anymore because everybody knows me there."</sentence><sentence id="2442">So...but he forgot to tell me that my parents moved.</sentence><sentence id="2443">So I went to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> night time, come to my <span class="BUILDING">home</span> and knock in the <span class="DLF">door</span> and there's a voice, "Who is it?"</sentence><sentence id="2444">I say, "It's me.</sentence><sentence id="2445">Open."</sentence><sentence id="2446">I didn't recognize in the beginning.</sentence><sentence id="2447">Well, inside they recognized me and said, "You dirty Jew.</sentence><sentence id="2448">Run away.</sentence><sentence id="2449">You don't live here anymore.</sentence><sentence id="2450">Go over there."</sentence><sentence id="2451">So we were living in that time in a rundown <span class="NPIP">place</span>, so I come to this <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2452">It was everything night time.</sentence><sentence id="2453">It was very dangerous.</sentence><sentence id="2454">Knock on the...there was some shutters, so I putted my finger behind the shutters because it was everything dried out.</sentence><sentence id="2455">You know the rundown <span class="BUILDING">houses</span>; knock slowly in the <span class="DLF">window</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2456">I didn't want to scare my parents.</sentence><sentence id="2457">And heard a voice, "Somebody's knocking."</sentence><sentence id="2458">Later, I've seen light and later, I say "It's me.</sentence><sentence id="2459"><span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Toivi</span>."</sentence><sentence id="2460">And hear mine brother screaming, "Toivi!</sentence><sentence id="2461">Toivi!"</sentence><sentence id="2462">and the <span class="DLF">doors</span> open in the back and I go in, and my mother kissed me.</sentence><sentence id="2463">My brother jumped on me.</sentence><sentence id="2464">He didn't want to let me...but the next question was whether you have your watch. (</sentence><sentence id="2465">laughing) "Give me back my watch."</sentence><sentence id="2466">And...uh...my father, he pretend...uh...he didn't...he...he was rather a hard type.</sentence><sentence id="2467">He pretend he didn't cry but I..but I've seen him...I've seen red eyes.</sentence><sentence id="2468">And now the story was going on a whole night.</sentence><sentence id="2469">Their story, to tell in a few words.</sentence><sentence id="2470">After this, after I left, they made Izbica "Judenrein;" by that time my brother and father were hidden.</sentence><sentence id="2471">My mother was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>, also escaped.</sentence><sentence id="2472">Soon after I escaped.</sentence><sentence id="2473">Later, they made <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> again a "<span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Judenstadt</span>."</sentence><sentence id="2474">And actual when I researched the German document...there's a document which Izbica... there's a nation...<span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> is to be a "Judenstadt" again.</sentence><sentence id="2475">And...uh ... first my father returned, later and other people returned and again, I don't want to give...there's a few interesting stories about this, but they will drag on so I will miss it.</sentence><sentence id="2476">Just tell you that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> did again become <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Judenstadt</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2477">My father returned.</sentence><sentence id="2478">My brother returned.</sentence><sentence id="2479">My mother returned.</sentence><sentence id="2480">And...uh...of course, now I am back.</sentence><sentence id="2481">More people did come back.</sentence><sentence id="2482">My mother had a beautiful job as a...in a German company as a bookkeeper in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>, as a Christian girl.</sentence><sentence id="2483">She was blonde, thin, short nose.</sentence><sentence id="2484">Very Aryan-looking.</sentence><sentence id="2485">Unfortunately, they told me later that my little brother wrote her a letter that my father is going with another woman or sounding like that, and they told me she returned.</sentence><sentence id="2486">She was jealous or whatever.</sentence><sentence id="2487">So now I'm in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2488">In the morning, I go out to my Izbica, I'm back in my <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2489">Go out and the first guy I see is a good acquaintance of my family from the...the coop...cooperative [spo _dzielczo or landszo _(ph)] and I say, "Oh, hello.</sentence><sentence id="2490">How are you?"</sentence><sentence id="2491">And he looks at me, "You dirty Jew.</sentence><sentence id="2492">You are still here?"</sentence><sentence id="2493">I can't believe it.</sentence><sentence id="2494">I met another one good.</sentence><sentence id="2495">He said, "Oh, your time will come soon."</sentence><sentence id="2496">And I feel it's not my Izbica anymore.</sentence><sentence id="2497">Maybe it never was.</sentence><sentence id="2498">So I go around into <span class="BUILDING">houses</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2499">There were 200 Jews and they live about 10 7 Jews to one <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> in a little <span class="REGION">area</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2500">There was a <span class="BUILDING">tannery</span> where most Jews lived.</sentence><sentence id="2501">And...uh..I felt something happens.</sentence><sentence id="2502">Something will happen and I want to go to the Partisans.</sentence><sentence id="2503">So I go to the Partisans.</sentence><sentence id="2504">They told me, "You can't go without a gun."</sentence><sentence id="2505">They wouldn't take you without a weapon.</sentence><sentence id="2506">So I went to buy weapons.</sentence><sentence id="2507">I don't have money.</sentence><sentence id="2508">But I have a friend.</sentence><sentence id="2509">Izick (ph)] And I tell him, "Listen.</sentence><sentence id="2510">Let's buy a gun."</sentence><sentence id="2511">He didn't have money either.</sentence><sentence id="2512">So I told my father, "Listen, I don't want to sleep in this <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2513">There's too many people.</sentence><sentence id="2514">I want to sleep in the <span class="INT_SPACE">attic</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2515">Could you give me a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">blanket</span>?</sentence><sentence id="2516">And could you give me a coat, a winter coat?"</sentence><sentence id="2517">He said, "Okay."</sentence><sentence id="2518">So I took it and sold it.</sentence><sentence id="2519">I still didn't have enough for a gun.(Laughing) So finally [Izick, Izick (ph)] did have the money, bought a gun and he hide it.</sentence><sentence id="2520">He hid it in the...in the straw, in a <span class="NPIP">place</span> over there in the <span class="BUILDING">tannery</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2521">In the <span class="BUILDING">tannery</span> was a horse who did work in this...this...in this towel I hid the gun.</sentence><sentence id="2522">One day...but I was so in love with the gun that many times I kept it in my pocket.</sentence><sentence id="2523">Once I go with my...once there was a rumor that the Germans asked how many Jews are in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2524">And that time my father was the Judenrat, the head of the Judenrat.</sentence><sentence id="2525">The 200 Jews, were three people in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Judenrat</span>...my father was...another one was Blanck and <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Kornfeld</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2526">So I did know immediately.</sentence><sentence id="2527">So I remember walking with my father to a Polish lady...was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Kovin</span>, and I still remember the <span class="DLF">road</span>, and I said to my father...that...they asked for the Jews. "</sentence><sentence id="2528">Isn't that something dangerous?"</sentence><sentence id="2529">He said, "God knows...knows."</sentence><sentence id="2530">I said, "Dad, Let's buy a gun."</sentence><sentence id="2531">He says, "No.</sentence><sentence id="2532">You can't buy a gun."</sentence><sentence id="2533">I said, "Dad, I have a gun already.</sentence><sentence id="2534">In fact in my pocket."</sentence><sentence id="2535">And he looked and he could see this...uh...<span class="DLF">outline</span> and he said, "Be careful.</sentence><sentence id="2536">Be careful.</sentence><sentence id="2537">Don't...uh...we could get killed."</sentence><sentence id="2538">But the way he said it, I've seen that is really the tragedy.</sentence><sentence id="2539">Another time...maybe a half a year ago, he would say, "Tom, hide it.</sentence><sentence id="2540">Throw it away."</sentence><sentence id="2541">He didn't say this anymore.</sentence><sentence id="2542">He let me keep it.</sentence><sentence id="2543">He just says, "Be careful."</sentence><sentence id="2544">The gun didn't help...help me anyway because when the time did come, I remember I heard a big shot, jumped from the <span class="INT_SPACE">attic</span> down.</sentence><sentence id="2545">I hurt my back.</sentence><sentence id="2546">Until now, it's hurting me.</sentence><sentence id="2547">Did run to the <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2548">As I said, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> was in a <span class="ENV_FEATURES">valley</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2549">A lot of <span class="BUILDING">houses</span> were built in the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">hills</span> so one <span class="DLF">wall</span> was actually a built in the...in in the <span class="DLF">hill</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2550">So one <span class="DLF">wall</span> of this <span class="BUILDING">tannery</span> was built in in the <span class="DLF">hill</span>, so what we have done, we moved a panel and digged a very big <span class="INT_SPACE">cave</span> for about a lot of people.</sentence><sentence id="2551">And was so nicely done nobody did notice this <span class="DLF">entrance</span> and we hid over there.</sentence><sentence id="2552">We heard the Germans coming in, looking.</sentence><sentence id="2553">They went out.</sentence><sentence id="2554">They can't find us.</sentence><sentence id="2555">We so happy.</sentence><sentence id="2556">Next we hear again coming.</sentence><sentence id="2557">Polish voices. "</sentence><sentence id="2558">No, they must be here!They must be here!</sentence><sentence id="2559">They are here!"</sentence><sentence id="2560">And the Germans start look again.</sentence><sentence id="2561">And these...the Polish helpers start to help them, rip out the...the <span class="DLF">panels</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2562">And I still remember being over there sweating.</sentence><sentence id="2563">It was hot.</sentence><sentence id="2564">And while they were pulling the panel, flashes of daylight did come in in this <span class="INT_SPACE">cave</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2565">And the panel was like a spring.</sentence><sentence id="2566">It didn't want to give in, like she would like to save us.</sentence><sentence id="2567">Unfortunately, crack!</sentence><sentence id="2568">The panel went up, and they told us to go out.</sentence><sentence id="2569">I remember I went out and I had only one shoe.</sentence><sentence id="2570">And I was asking the German if I could go back to this...uh...to pick up another shoe.</sentence><sentence id="2571">He allowed me to do it, and now they took us <span class="NPIP">outside</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2572">8 And <span class="NPIP">outside</span> was many Jews already con... congregated and they surrounded by a few Ukrainians there.</sentence><sentence id="2573">But by being covered I managed...I actually managed to sneak out from this...from this circle group, and I went <span class="NPIP">outside</span> and I had the knowledge that I cannot go out...I can't go <span class="NPIP">outside</span> from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> because on top of the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">hills</span> is a ring with soldiers.</sentence><sentence id="2574">Izbica's surrounded.</sentence><sentence id="2575">I had a notion that I must hide on the foothills where the <span class="BUILDING">Christians" house</span> are.</sentence><sentence id="2576">Izbica...himself...the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">valley</span> was...down was only Jews, but in the foothills, where they're going to the top of the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">hills</span> were Christians" <span class="BUILDING">houses</span>...uh...<span class="DLF">farms</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2577">So I went into a <span class="BUILDING">blacksmith's shop</span> and he said, "Tom, Go out.</sentence><sentence id="2578">Go out.</sentence><sentence id="2579">I'm afraid."</sentence><sentence id="2580">I went out.</sentence><sentence id="2581">I went up farther.</sentence><sentence id="2582">Look happened and I met... met my schoolmate, Janek Knopczik. "</sentence><sentence id="2583">Janek, hide me.</sentence><sentence id="2584">Please." "</sentence><sentence id="2585">Yah, sure, of course, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Toivi</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2586">Go into the <span class="BUILDING">barn</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2587">Fast."</sentence><sentence id="2588">So I went to the <span class="BUILDING">barn</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2589">And he went...and he left.</sentence><sentence id="2590">Well, I got to the <span class="BUILDING">barn</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2591">There's a padlock.</sentence><sentence id="2592">I can't go in.</sentence><sentence id="2593">So I start to look for a <span class="NPIP">place</span> to go in, and there's a Polish Christian woman asked...yelling, "Tom!</sentence><sentence id="2594">Over here!Run away!</sentence><sentence id="2595">Run away!"</sentence><sentence id="2596">So Lasked, "Why shall I run away?" "</sentence><sentence id="2597">Because he's coming...coming." "</sentence><sentence id="2598">Who's coming?" "[</sentence><sentence id="2599">Knopcezik."</sentence><sentence id="2600">So Knopezik will come.</sentence><sentence id="2601">He will open the...the...the padlock.</sentence><sentence id="2602">And I didn't run away.</sentence><sentence id="2603">And here's Knopezik coming with a Nazi.</sentence><sentence id="2604">"Take him.</sentence><sentence id="2605">He's a Jew."</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2878">Q: Stop.</sentence><sentence id="2879">Perfect.</sentence><sentence id="2880">Let's change tapes very fast.</sentence><sentence id="2881">9 TAPE #3</sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2882">Q: Okay.</sentence><sentence id="2883">We are ready.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2886">A: So where am I.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2888">Q: Alright, you had just been...</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2890">A: So he had... so he said...so he said to this Nazi, "Take him.</sentence><sentence id="2891">He's a Jew."</sentence><sentence id="2892">So I said, "Janek!You're mistaken!</sentence><sentence id="2893">He's joking." "</sentence><sentence id="2894">No, he's a Jew."</sentence><sentence id="2895">So, and the Nazi said, "Come."</sentence><sentence id="2896">So Janek Knopczik also said, "So, okay, I will see you in a shelf in a <span class="BUILDING">soap store</span>."</sentence><sentence id="2897">Because there were rumors they are make soap from...from Jews.</sentence><sentence id="2898">So his goodbye was: "I will see you in a shelf in a <span class="BUILDING">soap store</span>."</sentence><sentence id="2899">Okay, and I left and to make it short, I can't tell you more because there's still some going on; but finally, I find myself with the rest of the Jews on the <span class="BUILDING">marketplace</span> surrounded by the Nazis.</sentence><sentence id="2900">There was a woman I remember.</sentence><sentence id="2901">While we were sitting on the <span class="BUILDING">marketplace</span>, on the cobblestones, there was a woman crying and running from one Ukrainian to another one. "</sentence><sentence id="2902">I am not a Jew.</sentence><sentence id="2903">Iam not a Jew.</sentence><sentence id="2904">I am not guilty.</sentence><sentence id="2905">Please, I'ma Christian lady.</sentence><sentence id="2906">I'm not a Jew.</sentence><sentence id="2907">Is I'm not guilty at all."</sentence><sentence id="2908">And they let her out.</sentence><sentence id="2909">She was a mistake.</sentence><sentence id="2910">They grabbed her, too.</sentence><sentence id="2911">So she was not guilty being a Jew.</sentence><sentence id="2912">I remember my <span class="BUILDING">school</span> teacher, Steidel (ph).</sentence><sentence id="2913">Very fine Pole.</sentence><sentence id="2914">He...he was there, the head of the <span class="BUILDING">school</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2915">I remember while I was sitting on the cobblestones, I remember him walking...uh...uh...on the <span class="DLF">sidewalk</span>, and he didn't want to look at us.</sentence><sentence id="2916">And I felt...I still don't know why, this a little thing.</sentence><sentence id="2917">So many other <span class="NPIP">things</span> to remember and I remember him.</sentence><sentence id="2918">I remember his face.</sentence><sentence id="2919">I remember he was feeling for us.</sentence><sentence id="2920">When another Pole did stare at us.</sentence><sentence id="2921">Talking ...he did walk by like we didn't exist, and his head turned away.</sentence><sentence id="2922">And I remember this picture.</sentence><sentence id="2923">And I remember it was a beautiful April day, April 28, and I was sure I will die.</sentence><sentence id="2924">Finally, two <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trucks</span> arrived.</sentence><sentence id="2925">They told us to step in.</sentence><sentence id="2926">We went in the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trucks</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2927">The <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trucks</span> were covered with canvas.</sentence><sentence id="2928">It was dark <span class="NPIP">inside</span>, and the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trucks</span> started eastward and now there's hope.</sentence><sentence id="2929">Maybe, it's not so evil because in the <span class="DLF">road</span> from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>, there's two <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">concentration camp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2930">There's <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="51.138618" long="22.998863">Trawniki</span> [NB: <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">labor camp</span> for Jews, subcamp of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="51.248" long="22.57">Lublin</span>].</sentence><sentence id="2931">There's <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Zawada</span> [NB: <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">labor camp</span> for Jews] .</sentence><sentence id="2932">We passed the turn off to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Zawada</span> and our hope is down.</sentence><sentence id="2933">People are praying.</sentence><sentence id="2934">They passed the turn off to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="51.138618" long="22.998863">Trawniki</span>, and now we know in front of us is <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>, and we know what <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span> is.</sentence><sentence id="2935">And some people...and everything is in the dark..-uh....uh... in the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2936">It's dark.</sentence><sentence id="2937">And I hear voices, "Let fight.</sentence><sentence id="2938">We will die anyway."</sentence><sentence id="2939">I know the voices. "</sentence><sentence id="2940">No, we will die anyway.</sentence><sentence id="2941">Let's die together with the families."</sentence><sentence id="2942">But they mood is that we will...when we stop, we will throw ourselves on the Nazis.</sentence><sentence id="2943">Finally, the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> stopped.</sentence><sentence id="2944">And I remember still a voice.</sentence><sentence id="2945">Somebody cut the... remember still while driving... my...my...in fact, my father's face...he was sweating terrible.</sentence><sentence id="2946">I remember wiping my father's...wet forehead.</sentence><sentence id="2947">It's wasn't completely dark.</sentence><sentence id="2948">It was still...from the front some light coming.</sentence><sentence id="2949">And I 0 remember the voice, and finally the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> stopped....stopped and I hear a voice.</sentence><sentence id="2950">Somebody cut open the canvas and noticed...looked <span class="NPIP">outside</span> that and said, "Ist schwarz von Ukrainen." "</sentence><sentence id="2951">It's black from Ukrainians."</sentence><sentence id="2952">Now this meant Ukrainians...the Nazis...they walked with...because they walked with nothing...they had black uniforms.</sentence><sentence id="2953">When he said, "It's black," he meant it was so many of them.</sentence><sentence id="2954">It's no use.</sentence><sentence id="2955">And he told us to go down.</sentence><sentence id="2956">And we go down and really, there were many Nazis.</sentence><sentence id="2957">We were surrounded very tight with machine guns and everything.</sentence><sentence id="2958">Probably the Nazis did...had experience.</sentence><sentence id="2959">They did know that this a crucial time when people coming and seeing there in front of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibdr</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2960">So we stood up.</sentence><sentence id="2961">We get out and we stood in front of the <span class="DLF">gate</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2962">What did I see?</sentence><sentence id="2963">I see a big <span class="DLF">fence</span> camouflaged by pine branches, braided in...in the <span class="DLF">barbed wires</span>, and a <span class="DLF">gate</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2964">On top of the <span class="DLF">gate</span> a big sign, black and white, "SS Sonderkommando." "</sentence><sentence id="2965">Sonderkommando" meant special command.</sentence><sentence id="2966">The <span class="DLF">gate</span> opened.</sentence><sentence id="2967">We go in.</sentence><sentence id="2968">They told us to go in.</sentence><sentence id="2969">I go in, and I can't believe it.</sentence><sentence id="2970">I...my dreams and my nightmares...what I had about <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>...I imagined <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>'s a <span class="NPIP">Hell</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2971">Belzec's a <span class="NPIP">Hell</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2972">Sobibor a <span class="NPIP">Hell</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2973">It looked like a <span class="NPIP">Hell</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2974">And how's a <span class="NPIP">Hell</span>?</sentence><sentence id="2975">I have it from my...my aunt's descript...descriptions.</sentence><sentence id="2976">Dark, and people running around with tar and with whatever.</sentence><sentence id="2977">It's miserable.</sentence><sentence id="2978">What did I see?</sentence><sentence id="2979">A beautiful, little <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2980">Lawns, beautiful flowers.</sentence><sentence id="2981">A nice <span class="BUILDING">train station</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2982">Nice little <span class="BUILDING">houses</span>. "</sentence><sentence id="2983"><span class="BUILDING">Schwalbennest</span>" was the title of one <span class="BUILDING">house</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2984">It means...uh...uh..."Schwalbennest" [Translation: "Swallows'Nest]...uh...how is it in English?</sentence><sentence id="2985">Anyway, and...uh...they told us to stop; and I think, "This can't be a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">death camp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2986">How could such a <span class="NPIP">place</span> be a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">death camp</span>?"</sentence><sentence id="2987">Birds are whistling.</sentence><sentence id="2988">Nice <span class="ENV_FEATURES">trees</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2989">I still will remember the shape of the...of the <span class="DLF">sky</span>...of the...uh....pause) Oh, what is in the <span class="DLF">sky</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3093">Q: The clouds?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3095">A: The clouds!</sentence><sentence id="3096">And I didn't want to die.</sentence><sentence id="3097">But I've seen the fire.</sentence><sentence id="3098">From...there was far away, farther, there was a...where they burned the people.</sentence><sentence id="3099">I've seen the fire from behind...was again a <span class="DLF">fence</span> camouflaged.</sentence><sentence id="3100">And I could feel the smell.</sentence><sentence id="3101">And I thought and strange enough, I wasn't afraid of dying.</sentence><sentence id="3102">I was afraid of being burned.</sentence><sentence id="3103">And...uh...suddenly a voice, "Men right, woman, children should go left."</sentence><sentence id="3104">And then I was always now with my mother when we went down from the...from the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3105">And that age when you are 15, you could pretend to be a...a child or you could be a man already.</sentence><sentence id="3106">But instinctively I felt it's better to be with men, so I kissed my mother goodbye.</sentence><sentence id="3107">I said a few foolish words. [</sentence><sentence id="3108">I still regret it, trying to figure out why did I say it?]</sentence><sentence id="3109">It's still bothering me.</sentence><sentence id="3110">I will tell you.</sentence><sentence id="3111">I said, "And you didn't want....you didn't let me drink the milk yesterday."</sentence><sentence id="3112">And she said, "That what you have to say in that minute?"</sentence><sentence id="3113">And this is bothering my whole life.</sentence><sentence id="3114">Why is it...) You see a day before, we had a little wooden... uh... box with ice, and the milk was over there.</sentence><sentence id="3115">So I opened... was first opened, I start to drink the milk.</sentence><sentence id="3116">And my mother opened the <span class="DLF">door</span> from the <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3117">She said, "Leave it for tomorrow.</sentence><sentence id="3118">Don't drink everything."</sentence><sentence id="3119">And...and now I...in this moment, I did come back to it and said such a foolish thing which is still bothering me, and left to mine father and mine little brother left to my mother.</sentence><sentence id="3120">We did cross each other. (</sentence><sentence id="3121">Sigh) (Long Pause) (sigh) Now (sigh) the German...when everybody went to their way, the German Frenzel [NB: Oberscharfiihrer Karl Frenzel], with who I after the war I had a interview.</sentence><sentence id="3122">He 1 told the woman and children go the direction of this fire.</sentence><sentence id="3123">He left.</sentence><sentence id="3124">And now he start to ask the men who's a carpenter.</sentence><sentence id="3125">Who's a mechanic?</sentence><sentence id="3126">And I was no mechanic.</sentence><sentence id="3127">What could a 15 year old boy be?</sentence><sentence id="3128">But I did want to live so much.</sentence><sentence id="3129">And wherever the Nazi moved, my eyes went after him.</sentence><sentence id="3130">And I really believe...(quavering) I really believe that...uh...my strong...I believe that people could be influenced, that something is between people, some interaction.</sentence><sentence id="3131">You don't need to say it.</sentence><sentence id="3132">And I felt that actually I influenced the German.</sentence><sentence id="3133">When he was moving back and forth and our eyes met and my strong will said, "Please take me <span class="NPIP">inside</span>."</sentence><sentence id="3134">He stopped, looked at me, and said, "Come out."...</sentence><sentence id="3135">the Ukrainer.</sentence><sentence id="3136">I should come out.</sentence><sentence id="3137">And I still believe this was my strong will.</sentence><sentence id="3138">I... something was which emitted from me to him.</sentence><sentence id="3139">I still really truly believe.</sentence><sentence id="3140">And...uh...he told me to go out.</sentence><sentence id="3141">My father did want to go out.</sentence><sentence id="3142">He beat him, and later when he assembled about 40 people, he told the rest to go in the same way that woman and they left.</sentence><sentence id="3143">In this way I started to work in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3144">Now <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span> story.</sentence><sentence id="3145">When they made a film, "Escape from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>," and I was a consultant, I was accused even by people knowing the history of the Holocaust ... even in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span> by Poles...I wonder how should survive in ___ <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3146">A <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="51.021507" long="11.249238">Buchenwald</span> survivor told me, "What a horrible film.</sentence><sentence id="3147">A typical horrible film.</sentence><sentence id="3148">Look, the prisoners are going with the woman.</sentence><sentence id="3149">Take a look how they look like.</sentence><sentence id="3150">We know how prisoner in a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">concentration camp</span> did look like.</sentence><sentence id="3151">Skinny, emaci... uh..worn out.</sentence><sentence id="3152">Take a look there here how they look.</sentence><sentence id="3153">It's...it's not a true picture of a...a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nazi camp</span>."</sentence><sentence id="3154">Unfortunately, it was.</sentence><sentence id="3155">There's a difference between a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">concentration camp</span> and <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">extermination camp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3156">I don't want to go in anymore.</sentence><sentence id="3157">No.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3222">Q: Just tell us where you were.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3224">A: Yah.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3226">Q: Don't worry about the film.</sentence><sentence id="3227">Don't worry about...</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3230">A: Yah.</sentence><sentence id="3231">That...that what I want to tell you.</sentence><sentence id="3232">So I remember I lay down.</sentence><sentence id="3233">It was...in the <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span>, there was a fellow called Josel (ph).</sentence><sentence id="3234">He did come write down my name, everybody's name, and told me to pick a <span class="NPIP">place</span> to sleep.</sentence><sentence id="3235">From...all the...the three <span class="DLF">lines</span> are free for you.</sentence><sentence id="3236">I didn't know that the day before they killed 72 Dutch Jews because they did try... supposedly try to escape.</sentence><sentence id="3237">So I immediately picked on the <span class="INT_SPACE">third floor</span> right in the corner far away from the <span class="DLF">door</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3238">And ...uh...soon as I put away... had a little bit in the hand which I took from the <span class="BUILDING">home</span>....I don't know what I had...a piece of bread or whatever, I put it away in my <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3239">I did lay down for a minute.</sentence><sentence id="3240">Later I did go out to the <span class="DLF">yard</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3241">And I didn't know what it was, but my whole feelings about my family, I just lost them... they were probably burning in that time.</sentence><sentence id="3242">I didn't think.</sentence><sentence id="3243">I didn't think at all.</sentence><sentence id="3244">I didn't think about mine parents or myself, later; about my family until the end I was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobiber</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3245">Maybe this was from the nature some kind of shield, but I didn't.</sentence><sentence id="3246">Must admit.</sentence><sentence id="3247">I didn't see anybody cry in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span> either.</sentence><sentence id="3248">It was a different...people changed, with changed.</sentence><sentence id="3249">Everything changed.</sentence><sentence id="3250">Go out.</sentence><sentence id="3251">Try to look.</sentence><sentence id="3252">They have singing.</sentence><sentence id="3253"><span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>, singing.</sentence><sentence id="3254">Happy songs.</sentence><sentence id="3255"><span class="DLF">Gate</span> opens, and there're groups of people marching in.</sentence><sentence id="3256">2 Young people.</sentence><sentence id="3257">Good dressed.</sentence><sentence id="3258">Then again in front of them, I find out later it was a Kapo--a man dressed better with a big whip--and he commanded "Abteilung, Halt!"</sentence><sentence id="3259">which means "stop."</sentence><sentence id="3260">Everything was in military fashion, and later they dispersed.</sentence><sentence id="3261">While looking around I hear a voice, "Toivi."</sentence><sentence id="3262">Turn around and this was [Jussik Bressler (ph)] from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ko_o</span>, my friend, who was caught a year earlier.</sentence><sentence id="3263">Now I have a friend.</sentence><sentence id="3264">He was taken out as a dentist, not here but last Aktion from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span> when they took.</sentence><sentence id="3265">It was...uh...half a year earlier.</sentence><sentence id="3266">And I go with him and he tells me about <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span> and later, we go behind the <span class="BUILDING">tailors" shop</span> and there's a group of Jews playing their harmonica and playing the fiddle.</sentence><sentence id="3267">And I'm shocked I hear music. "</sentence><sentence id="3268">How could you play here in this <span class="NPIP">place</span>?</sentence><sentence id="3269">Take a look at the fire."</sentence><sentence id="3270">They said, "Tom, we are dead anyway.</sentence><sentence id="3271">You know how they...they call...the Germans are calling us here? "[</sentence><sentence id="3272"><span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nassersecker</span> (ph)]."" "[</sentence><sentence id="3273">Nassersecker (ph)]"--"bed bugs." "</sentence><sentence id="3274">You're only a bed bug.</sentence><sentence id="3275">And...uh...we will be dead anyway so you will get used to it, you see?</sentence><sentence id="3276">Fires burning, you don't cry even now.</sentence><sentence id="3277">You see, your parents are burning over there."</sentence><sentence id="3278">Yah.</sentence><sentence id="3279">Different people.</sentence><sentence id="3280">You wouldn't wonder.</sentence><sentence id="3281">Some of the first day maybe.</sentence><sentence id="3282">And I didn't wonder later what I was seeing...the...it was couples, even <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>, uh... girls and men connecting.</sentence><sentence id="3283">As a matter fact, one...one couple lives here not far from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Washington</span>...survived both together.</sentence><sentence id="3284">And...uh... this way I started to work.</sentence><sentence id="3285">This...uh...The same night in the morning, about 2 o'clock I hear a whistle. "</sentence><sentence id="3286">Everybody out.</sentence><sentence id="3287">Everybody out."</sentence><sentence id="3288">I go out with another people from the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> because they're yelling...the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">kapos</span> with whips.</sentence><sentence id="3289">They're chasing out, we go out.</sentence><sentence id="3290">It's a night.</sentence><sentence id="3291">Stars.</sentence><sentence id="3292">The moon, __ night.</sentence><sentence id="3293">And I hear something, "Friseurs, here!" "</sentence><sentence id="3294">Friseurs" means like barbers [Translation: "Hairdressers" ].And the...as a group they call themselves "Friseurs."</sentence><sentence id="3295">And later they call a group "Gepackentragers" [Translation: "Porters"].</sentence><sentence id="3296">The kapo called.</sentence><sentence id="3297">I see another group goes to another <span class="NPIP">place</span>, assembles.</sentence><sentence id="3298">The kapo looks at me. "</sentence><sentence id="3299">Go to the Gepackentragers," because I didn't know where I should go.</sentence><sentence id="3300">So I go to the Gepackentragers, the people carrying <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">luggage</span> back.</sentence><sentence id="3301">They called them "Gepackentragers" in German.</sentence><sentence id="3302">And now...and the rest...well went back to the <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3303">Well, later they led us...they led the barbers, the Friseurs so-called, someplace else and my group is led to a big, huge <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> with two <span class="DLF">gates</span>, <span class="DLF">entrance gate</span> and an <span class="DLF">exit gate</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3304">The <span class="DLF">gates</span> are open and while we're waiting <span class="NPIP">inside</span> with other boys.</sentence><sentence id="3305">I was told to call in Dutch where the handbags should be left.</sentence><sentence id="3306">And here people start to come in.</sentence><sentence id="3307">Very well dressed.</sentence><sentence id="3308">There was...uh...uh....uh...a transport from <span class="COUNTRY">Holland</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3309">And they didn't know where they are coming.</sentence><sentence id="3310">They did come in <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">passenger trains</span>, and no idea.</sentence><sentence id="3311">And they left the big <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">luggage</span> on the <span class="BUILDING">train station</span>, being sure that they will be delivered.</sentence><sentence id="3312">And now the handbags.</sentence><sentence id="3313">But here I notice some kind...that they had a strange feeling, because a woman...what does a woman have in her handbag?</sentence><sentence id="3314">Most precious things.</sentence><sentence id="3315">She hate to part, and now they tell her to part with this.</sentence><sentence id="3316">But there was a German immediately.</sentence><sentence id="3317">She resisted, she was beaten.</sentence><sentence id="3318">And one person said...have seen she was beaten, volunteered to give up the handbags and they led them out to the <span class="DLF">exit gate</span>, and later they went to a <span class="DLF">yard</span> where they were told to undress.</sentence><sentence id="3319">3 And we...our group was still waiting in this <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>, even when the people went through.</sentence><sentence id="3320">But five minutes later, the Nazi calls us to the <span class="DLF">yard</span> where the people undressed.</sentence><sentence id="3321">Were undressed, but now there's no people; but heaps of clothing.</sentence><sentence id="3322">They told us...the Nazi tell us to...told us to pick up the clothing and take it to the <span class="BUILDING">storeroom</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3323">So I picked up the clothing, took it to the <span class="INT_SPACE">storeroom</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3324">It was a special <span class="INT_SPACE">storeroom</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3325">And now another <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">transport</span>, another group is coming ..another 500 people.</sentence><sentence id="3326">So I must run again to the first <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3327">Take the handbags, and later again to this.</sentence><sentence id="3328">And later when the whole <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">transport</span> went through, the SS Frenzel told...took a few of us...need to, "Now, come with me."</sentence><sentence id="3329">He led us about five meters from the <span class="INT_SPACE">gas chambers</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3330">It was a <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> where woman were coming in to cut the hair.</sentence><sentence id="3331">He...he did give us those scissors to help another one to finish up cutting the hair.</sentence><sentence id="3332">I didn't know how...first of all, I never seen a woman nude.</sentence><sentence id="3333">I was...even that situation, I was very ashamed.</sentence><sentence id="3334">I didn't want to look.</sentence><sentence id="3335">I looked down, but I did get once a whipped so I picked up my head and took the...the shears and he told me I don't need to cut close.</sentence><sentence id="3336">Just...uh...uh...If I have somebody has a pigtail, cut the pigtails off.</sentence><sentence id="3337">And there they was suspicious because the Germans told them, when they undressed before the Germans told them that they are going for a sanitary reasons to a barber to...to..., but...uh...some suspicion.</sentence><sentence id="3338">But still they didn't think they were killed.</sentence><sentence id="3339">As a matter of fact, lam sure when they were in the <span class="INT_SPACE">gas chambers</span> they didn't believe it.</sentence><sentence id="3340">When the first gas did come in, probably they didn't..-under...understood what's happened to them.</sentence><sentence id="3341">After I finished cutting the hair, they told us to go out, and...uh...while I was still on the way back to my...to ...to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>, the <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span>, I heard already the motor, the gas motor working with a high.... You know, at that time, the gas motor...they screamed.</sentence><sentence id="3342">They started...they started very loud like "Ahhhh....," even louder than the motor.</sentence><sentence id="3343">They had a big <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">motor</span> there.</sentence><sentence id="3344">Later about 15 minutes down...down and until quiet was.</sentence><sentence id="3345">This was <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3346">I was working over there for 6 months.</sentence><sentence id="3347">I could...I could tell the story of...uh... one ... one escape and another one.</sentence><sentence id="3348">It will drag on too long.</sentence><sentence id="3349">Because while over there, I...I survived a execution.</sentence><sentence id="3350">Two people escaped and the <span class="DLF">barbed wires</span> were cut, and the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">kapos</span> immediately notified the Germans and the Germans did come and Frenzel made immediately a roll call and he picked up every 10[th] person to be executed.</sentence><sentence id="3351">So this was story.</sentence><sentence id="3352">I could go on, so let's stop here.</sentence><sentence id="3353">I went through this.</sentence><sentence id="3354">Later a group working so-called "Wald"..."Waldkommando," working outside the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span> cutting wood for the pyre, for the <span class="BUILDING">cremation</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3355">They escaped.</sentence><sentence id="3356">They made a revolt.</sentence><sentence id="3357">And...uh...later...uh...they caught a lot of them.</sentence><sentence id="3358">They brought them back, and I was witnessing their execution.</sentence><sentence id="3359">Things like that which I could talk a whole day and night.</sentence><sentence id="3360">But I will go now to the revolt.</sentence><sentence id="3361">Or a little bit about myself.</sentence><sentence id="3362">Being in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>, I always did want to escape.</sentence><sentence id="3363">And I...for...for some strange reason, I always felt I will survive.</sentence><sentence id="3364">I had always something in me that I will survive.</sentence><sentence id="3365">But I was looking.</sentence><sentence id="3366">Once they did need people to go to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">W_odawa</span> to take apart some <span class="BUILDING">bakeries</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3367">They did need fireproof bricks.</sentence><sentence id="3368">So the...the Germans asked for volunteers.</sentence><sentence id="3369">Who wants to go?</sentence><sentence id="3370">So I did go.</sentence><sentence id="3371">Thinking that maybe in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">W_odawa</span> I will be able to run away.</sentence><sentence id="3372">But <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">W_odawa</span> was a situation that even the fellow prisoners did...did watch me because they did know if I escape or anybody else escape, they would be killed.</sentence><sentence id="3373">So one watched another one.</sentence><sentence id="3374">We weren't able...but what's happened over there...there were about 150 Jewish girls working in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span>, sorting some stuff.</sentence><sentence id="3375">You 4 could see them from far away.</sentence><sentence id="3376">And while working, when we were able to get closer to them, we showed them that we are hiding money for them.</sentence><sentence id="3377">So we...we have done it for about week, leaving money in the ruins of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span> to help the...the W_odawa girls.</sentence><sentence id="3378">Nevertheless, most of them were later brought to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3379">This didn't help.</sentence><sentence id="3380">Later was the...the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>...Waldkommander thought maybe I could work over there.</sentence><sentence id="3381">In the beginning, it was very nice because I had a method.</sentence><sentence id="3382">I noticed that the Germans like clean people.</sentence><sentence id="3383">They like people going straight fast.</sentence><sentence id="3384">The moment you see a run..rundown Jews, broken-down Jew, they killing him.</sentence><sentence id="3385">So always I kept myself clean.</sentence><sentence id="3386">I put even my pants under me when I slept.</sentence><sentence id="3387">They should be ironed with my body, straight.</sentence><sentence id="3388">I didn't need to do this too because clothing, I could go any day change shoes or shirts or... because I was working sorting, and so on and so on.</sentence><sentence id="3389">But I always looked a open <span class="REGION">area</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3390">So I did go to <span class="BUILDING">work</span> for the Waldkommando.</sentence><sentence id="3391">The foreman...the Kapo, was a good acquaintance of mine, and I asked him and he said, "Okay.</sentence><sentence id="3392">You could come me."</sentence><sentence id="3393">We cut the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">wood</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3394">Later, ...uh...they're building a <span class="DLF">road</span> over there.</sentence><sentence id="3395">And the German noticed me, Dachsler (ph), old German.</sentence><sentence id="3396">And he said, "Listen, Kleiner, take a...take this group of people and go cut straight <span class="ENV_FEATURES">trees</span> because we need it for the <span class="DLF">road</span> to put on top."</sentence><sentence id="3397">So I had a group of people and...uh...and this was a good <span class="NPIP">place</span> to work because this German didn't beat.</sentence><sentence id="3398">So anyway, going farther...so my way of surviving was stay away from the German.</sentence><sentence id="3399">If you sleep in the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>, take a...a...a...a...<span class="NPIP">place</span> far away from the <span class="DLF">entrance door</span>, right in the corner, on the <span class="INT_SPACE">top floor</span> even if you need to crawl...to...to it's difficult to get up, do it.</sentence><sentence id="3400">Keep yourself clean.</sentence><sentence id="3401">Keep yourself straight.</sentence><sentence id="3402">You see a German, go somewhere.</sentence><sentence id="3403">And...uh...and...uh... a lot of miracles.</sentence><sentence id="3404">And this way I was existing <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3405">Uh...What also it was, I made a deal with a guy who sorted <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">luggage</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3406">Because you sort <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">luggage</span>, you could make labyrinths.</sentence><sentence id="3407">And I was sorting food.</sentence><sentence id="3408">So I told him, "Listen, I bring you some food.</sentence><sentence id="3409">You let me rest in your <span class="DLF">labyrinth</span> to eat."</sentence><sentence id="3410">So I was ...uh...taking a few canned food to him, and I was eating; and later he was happy and I was happy because I was always tired and sleepy.</sentence><sentence id="3411">Over there was a chance.</sentence><sentence id="3412">I will skip little stories like this, but why I mention about this guy because he will come up again.</sentence><sentence id="3413">Once in the middle of the night, my friend shaking, "Tom.</sentence><sentence id="3414">Listen.</sentence><sentence id="3415">Listen.</sentence><sentence id="3416">What's happened?"</sentence><sentence id="3417">What's happened, he...he had a big <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3418">And the one <span class="NPIP">part</span> was...uh...uh...sectioned off for the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">kapos</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3419">And the <span class="DLF">door</span> was open, and I heard some talking <span class="NPIP">inside</span>, so I did get up.</sentence><sentence id="3420">I've seen something is going on, and I did go to my friend in the [bank (ph)] kommando.</sentence><sentence id="3421">And I go to him, and it was dark in the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> because what I know in which <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bunk</span> he is, and I tell him, "Listen, Shmufel], Hear what's going on?</sentence><sentence id="3422">Something...something is happening here."</sentence><sentence id="3423">So instead to answer me, he hit me in my face with a...with something...some kind of metal, I know.</sentence><sentence id="3424">So I thought "If he knows and he doesn't care, it's okay."</sentence><sentence id="3425">So the next day there were rumors that the Kapos did plan to escape, but more people find out and they did...uh...want to go too.</sentence><sentence id="3426">Anyway, I told you.</sentence><sentence id="3427">But again, by working...in that time I used to sort clothing...uh...I've seen the whole Kapos, a whole group of kapos being taken to the <span class="BUILDING">crematorium</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3428">So I was wondering what's happened?</sentence><sentence id="3429">But again, a little bit later, I see this Berliner, the guy who used to...uh...the Lager, he used to sort <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">luggage</span>, has the uniform of the head Kapo, and did become the head Kapo and it was obvious that he did betray the action.</sentence><sentence id="3430">But to make it short again, we killed him later.</sentence><sentence id="3431">Before 5 we made the revolt.</sentence><sentence id="3432">He was...uh...killed by...uh... prisoners.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3638">Q: Tell us about the revolt.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
|
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3640">A: Okay.</sentence><sentence id="3641">Now, the situation was, of course, we were sure we will die.</sentence><sentence id="3642">When...uh...even if the...the war would stop right now and then the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">concentration camp</span> could be free, we will be killed.</sentence><sentence id="3643">So this was a terrible feeling, there's no way out for us.</sentence><sentence id="3644">Everybody did want to escape.</sentence><sentence id="3645">I think that whatever I was thinking to run away always, everybody had in his mind.</sentence><sentence id="3646">Although some people were resigned.</sentence><sentence id="3647">They were Orthodox Jews, which nevertheless, even with this terrible situation did pray.</sentence><sentence id="3648">I remember Yom Kippur.</sentence><sentence id="3649">And they did fast, and they did say all the prayers and...uh...they were very observant Jews, and they still had their trust in God and their tradition everything else.</sentence><sentence id="3650">Now, there always was... wouldn't say organization...there were a few people, influenced people in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>...respected people.</sentence><sentence id="3651">It was a Hazzan, I remember.</sentence><sentence id="3652">I don't remember his name.</sentence><sentence id="3653">And was Leon Feldhandler.</sentence><sentence id="3654">His father was a Rabbi and he was...actually he was a member of the Judenrat in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Zolkiewka</span>, in this <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3655">And there were some talks...talks about the revolt.</sentence><sentence id="3656">I was close to Feldhandler because he was a friend of my father in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3657">He was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica ghetto</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3658">He was taken to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span> from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica ghetto</span> in the time when I escaped to...to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Stryy</span>, and they caught me in <span class="BUILDING">jail</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3659">But it wasn't until a transport from the Soviet Union arrived.</sentence><sentence id="3660">When the <span class="REGION">Eastern Front</span> was coming nearer, the Germans eliminated the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghettos</span>, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="53.9309171" long="27.4790394">Minsk</span> and so on.</sentence><sentence id="3661">And that time they took all the Jews from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="53.9309171" long="27.4790394">Minsk</span>, and from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="53.883333" long="25.3">Lida</span> and they brought them to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3662">I mean not all of them.</sentence><sentence id="3663">A lot were killed on the spot, but a lot of...some <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">transports</span> come to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3664">And in that...in this particular <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">transport</span> they included quite a few Jewish prisoners of war.</sentence><sentence id="3665">Soviet prisoners of war, Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="3666">Because they recognized as a Jew.</sentence><sentence id="3667">In that time we had a lot of work and the Germans picked up another 80 people to help us from this particular transport from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="53.9309171" long="27.4790394">Minsk</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3668">Unfortunately, for them they picked up a few former POWs trained in the art of fighting.</sentence><sentence id="3669">Former soldiers.</sentence><sentence id="3670">And they picked up a man called Pechersky.</sentence><sentence id="3671">He was a officer in the Soviet Army, and ...to work with us.</sentence><sentence id="3672">Pretty soon, Leon Feldhandler recognized this potential material and he contacted, Leon Feldhandler, and Leon Feldhandler contacted Sasha Pechersky and...uh...again, I don't want to dwell much on it, they formed a organization.</sentence><sentence id="3673">From that time on some concrete things happened.</sentence><sentence id="3674">I find out about a week before about the revolt.</sentence><sentence id="3675">Uh...That time I was working as a Feuermann.</sentence><sentence id="3676">How did I come to be...to get this job?</sentence><sentence id="3677">Feuermann is like firemeister...master.</sentence><sentence id="3678">All the documents, heaps of documents, passports, pictures, books, soiled clothing was burned.</sentence><sentence id="3679">While they were burning it, when I was sorting, I put the papers in a big blanket.</sentence><sentence id="3680">Later with the blanket was still full, I put it on my shoulder and take it to the fire.</sentence><sentence id="3681">Taking it to the fire, I started to get familiar with the guy working over there.</sentence><sentence id="3682">Did bring him some food.</sentence><sentence id="3683">And slowly by slowly, I start to helping him; and later, when they built a bigger <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">oven</span>, I was working over there as a steady personnel.</sentence><sentence id="3684">My idea was to work in a...to be enclosed, out of 6 the view from the Germans.</sentence><sentence id="3685">I could see them.</sentence><sentence id="3686">They can't see me.</sentence><sentence id="3687">From the <span class="DLF">window</span>, I was able to see.</sentence><sentence id="3688">But once I wasn't able and there was a terrible beating.</sentence><sentence id="3689">But anyway, so...they planned to kill a German in my <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3690">So this way...but I did need to be contacted.</sentence><sentence id="3691">Otherwise, I would...some stranger comes into this <span class="NPIP">place</span>, I would chase him out, being afraid myself.</sentence><sentence id="3692">So he calls me in the evening and tells me, "Toivi, I must tell you something.</sentence><sentence id="3693">I know you.</sentence><sentence id="3694">I know your father.</sentence><sentence id="3695">I will tell you something, but keep your mouth shut.</sentence><sentence id="3696">We need your <span class="NPIP">place</span> to kill a German."</sentence><sentence id="3697">I was shocked.</sentence><sentence id="3698">Later, I find out about what's happened.</sentence><sentence id="3699">And I was informed on the purpose.</sentence><sentence id="3700">I... understood that something is going on, and I was informed about Sasha.</sentence><sentence id="3701">Especially I was a guy... was a guy in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span> which always did run around.</sentence><sentence id="3702">You know, I didn't keep in a <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3703">I was always hyper and would just run.</sentence><sentence id="3704">I did want to know everything like I would be...go out and I'd write book, which I've done, actually.(laughing) I was always a very...boy who...I want to know everything.</sentence><sentence id="3705">So in this way I did become, I was involved in it.</sentence><sentence id="3706">So I know the first plan was...there were different plans.</sentence><sentence id="3707">The first plan was to dig a <span class="DLF">tunnel</span> from the <span class="BUILDING">blacksmith shop</span> through the <span class="DLF">barbed wires</span> to <span class="NPIP">outside</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3708">But when they analyzed it, it's did come out that we need to work many, many days, nights to dispose of this very dangerous dispose of the soil.</sentence><sentence id="3709">They need to find a way.</sentence><sentence id="3710">And when...let's assume everything is okay.</sentence><sentence id="3711">Six hundred people should go through the <span class="DLF">tunnel</span> single file without quarrel will take a whole night.</sentence><sentence id="3712">Isn't practical.</sentence><sentence id="3713">They threw it away.</sentence><sentence id="3714">The next one was to poison...to kill all the Nazis while they're in <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bed</span>, because there was a group of young kids like me, they called "putzers," which each morning 4 o'clock they're allowed to go out from the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> to go to the Germans and while they are in the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bed</span>, clean their shoes, clean their belts and so on.</sentence><sentence id="3715">This time to smuggle in instead a such a young boy should go a little bit older, at night and kill in <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bed</span> and get their weapons.</sentence><sentence id="3716">But they did...they discon...they disregarded because they didn't...they weren't able to depend on young people doing such an important job.</sentence><sentence id="3717">Anyway, a plan was accepted...the final plan, to kill all the Germans in a matter of one hour, between four and five.</sentence><sentence id="3718">We based our success on the German punctuality...punctuality.</sentence><sentence id="3719">Discipline.</sentence><sentence id="3720">And the plan was that the heads of the workshops because besides the people working in conjunction of the extermination, there were workshops.</sentence><sentence id="3721">Tailors, shoemakers working for the Germans only, because there was...so much... they had a labor force.</sentence><sentence id="3722">Why not?</sentence><sentence id="3723">So they established a few small <span class="BUILDING">workshops</span> for themselves.</sentence><sentence id="3724">And always a German have something...made something for himself, a uniform or shoes; or the...heads of the <span class="BUILDING">shop</span> should make appointments with the Germans to come on that particular day, October 13, for appointments between 4 and 5 o'clock.</sentence><sentence id="3725">And over there there would be some people which will... which will kill them.</sentence><sentence id="3726">So I know about this plan.</sentence><sentence id="3727">And this should happen between 4 and 5, and the whole lager should look normal.</sentence><sentence id="3728">We should not...we should not use the weapons which we get when we kill Germans so not to...before the time.</sentence><sentence id="3729">I remember I was in that time waiting and mine fire place...in <span class="NPIP">mine place</span>...where I burned 7 ..where the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">oven</span> was.</sentence><sentence id="3730">I pushed all these papers against the <span class="DLF">window</span> so nobody should be able to look in because in, because in the sides when did people did bring me documents, papers, we threw in in the sides, and the the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">oven</span> was in the middle, and I just later burn it.</sentence><sentence id="3731">So anyway was a <span class="DLF">window</span> so I blocked the <span class="DLF">window</span> and was waiting.</sentence><sentence id="3732">And..uh...now I see a group...uh ... because they were divided.</sentence><sentence id="3733">The organization had about six fighting groups of three people and located in different <span class="NPIP">places</span> in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span> waiting for the Germans to be lured over there.</sentence><sentence id="3734">So I see the group is supposed to come to mine place coming to my direction, to my <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">oven</span>, but they're passing me.</sentence><sentence id="3735">They're going in a different way.</sentence><sentence id="3736">So I was panicky, but pretty soon a Jew called....from _6d_, Sender, comes to me and said, "Tom, they decide not to do anything to your <span class="NPIP">place</span> because the guard...the tower guard was very close."</sentence><sentence id="3737">I was very close to the <span class="DLF">fence</span> and he could notice a German comes in, doesn't go out and could be suspicious. "</sentence><sentence id="3738">We rather...we'll kill him in the <span class="BUILDING">men's storeroom</span>."</sentence><sentence id="3739">Then he told me to go over there, and over there my job in that time was to stay guard on the...on the <span class="DLF">gate</span> leading...connecting Lager | and Lager 2, because also we was connected...was divided in so- called four lagers, like 1, 2, 3 and 4.</sentence><sentence id="3740">In Lager 1 were the <span class="BUILDING">building</span> where they used to sleep and these <span class="BUILDING">workshop</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3741">Lager 2 we sorted, and Lager 3 we did burn, and Lager 4, we were building something over there.</sentence><sentence id="3742">So anyway I was suppose to stay guard and because this <span class="DLF">gate</span> was very close to the <span class="BUILDING">storeroom</span> I just seen them both coming in.</sentence><sentence id="3743">He was called in..in to try on a leather jacket, because it exactly his size.</sentence><sentence id="3744">And he did go in and suspected nothing.</sentence><sentence id="3745">While he put his hands in this...now this I haven't seen.</sentence><sentence id="3746">This...the moment he was killed, he did come out...the guy which I know and he told me that while he was coming in, the Jewish prisoner said, "Achtung!"</sentence><sentence id="3747">immediately. "</sentence><sentence id="3748">Attention."</sentence><sentence id="3749">And start attention, took this leather jacket and he immediately...he hold it for him and while he put in the hands in the leather jacket, his arms very immobilized like....like in a straight jacket, and he was killed with an ax and we had a first gun.</sentence><sentence id="3750">I was scared up to that point.</sentence><sentence id="3751">I remember when he was killed and the guy who killed him did come out.</sentence><sentence id="3752">He's a little bit blood on his shoe.</sentence><sentence id="3753">He patted his pocket like to say, the gun is here.</sentence><sentence id="3754">I...my whole ...I wasn't scared any more.</sentence><sentence id="3755">I did want only to know what will happen to me a half an hour later.</sentence><sentence id="3756">That I did want to know.</sentence><sentence id="3757">And I...L..I did know there's no way back.</sentence><sentence id="3758">This is it.</sentence><sentence id="3759">They killed...as long as we didn't kill the German, everything could be.... And later they called Beckman, and Beckman I remember he went to...to the <span class="DLF">door</span> over the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> and like whatever feeling he did turn around and went back and they killed him anyway in the <span class="BUILDING">office</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3760">And to make a long story...and I...and I at that point, I remember there was a little <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>, like a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">miners train</span>, for the miners.</sentence><sentence id="3761">Little <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagons</span> with a little electric engine.</sentence><sentence id="3762">And the German who was the head of this little <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> which connected all the Lagers with Lager 3, was already killed.</sentence><sentence id="3763">But inside I notice there's canned food.</sentence><sentence id="3764">So a few cans, put into my pocket.</sentence><sentence id="3765">And I remember I had friend, Linda Karoten (ph), Linda .</sentence><sentence id="3766">And she said, "Tom, you're preparing like for a picnic."</sentence><sentence id="3767">And I said, "If we will survive we will need it."</sentence><sentence id="3768">And later I...L..] eat.</sentence><sentence id="3769">I ran in the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3770">I reminded him this, that he said I'm preparing like a picnic because we used it later.</sentence><sentence id="3771">We're so hungry and I had it.</sentence><sentence id="3772">Anyway, now I remember the foreman was a French Jew...Jacov Dunietz [NB: Joseph Dunietz], and the foreman from the 8 group did come to me, "Tom, maybe you have some money?"</sentence><sentence id="3773">Because many times when I did burn in my <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">oven</span> the soiled clothing...when the clothing was burned or books, some money did come through in the ashes.</sentence><sentence id="3774">And when I cleaned the ashes, I find some gold always.</sentence><sentence id="3775">It did lose the luster, but it was not.... So...uh...he did know I could have it, so I did give him some money.</sentence><sentence id="3776">And the Germans were killed.</sentence><sentence id="3777">Nobody did know.</sentence><sentence id="3778">I was wondering that...this was like normal.</sentence><sentence id="3779">First of all the Kapos...the Kapos which were...there were two Kapos in the organization...and they were instructed to use the whip to beat us like everyday.</sentence><sentence id="3780">And they have done it.</sentence><sentence id="3781">And I remember like every day, singing.</sentence><sentence id="3782">We went back to <span class="BUILDING">Lager 1</span> for...uh...supper.</sentence><sentence id="3783">And now the biggest shock.</sentence><sentence id="3784">And this was I think was the...the most important ingredients of the success was so few people did know.</sentence><sentence id="3785">There were...we were about 600 people.</sentence><sentence id="3786">And this was the time before the roll call when we stand in <span class="DLF">line</span> in front of the <span class="INT_SPACE">kitchen</span> to eat.</sentence><sentence id="3787">Believe it or not, practically the whole <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span> was still like every day standing in the <span class="DLF">line</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3788">Maybe about 50 people were missing, the people which did know.</sentence><sentence id="3789">But soon one told another one, "Listen, forget about supper.</sentence><sentence id="3790">Something is going on.</sentence><sentence id="3791">Let us grab an ax.</sentence><sentence id="3792">Grab anything and be prepared."</sentence><sentence id="3793">Now the dangerous moment did come because up "til now...the...the Germans were free to go and come.</sentence><sentence id="3794">Each German has a <span class="NPIP">place</span> to watch.</sentence><sentence id="3795">The <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">sorters</span>, where clothing was sorted, there was a German standing.</sentence><sentence id="3796">But he was allowed to go for a cup of coffee or whatever he want.</sentence><sentence id="3797">And another German ...let say...from the shoe sorters, the place they sorted shoes, did come by and he didn't notice the German who's suppose to be by sorting clothing.</sentence><sentence id="3798">He wasn't suspicious.</sentence><sentence id="3799">He thought, "Oh, maybe my friend went for a cup of coffee."</sentence><sentence id="3800">But now, 5:30.</sentence><sentence id="3801">Well, the...the time did come close when all the Germans supposed to be in this <span class="NPIP">place</span>, Lager Ein, to...they witnessed the roll call.</sentence><sentence id="3802">And now if a German is missing, they will look each other.</sentence><sentence id="3803">So we did know that the crucial time is coming and... uh...uh...the <span class="DLF">line</span> in front of the <span class="INT_SPACE">kitchen</span> start to...to dwindle and I remember a shot and I remember Sasha Pechersky jumping on a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">table</span>.</sentence><sentence id="3804">And why L...now...a one Kapo whistled a whistle, like for a...like for a roll call.</sentence><sentence id="3805">Normal.</sentence><sentence id="3806">And made it a little bit earlier.</sentence><sentence id="3807">The original plan was actually to march...</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3977">Q: Stick with what happened.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="3979">A: Yah.</sentence><sentence id="3980">The original plan was to march out to the <span class="DLF">front gate</span>, but we heard a shot and the plan was disregarded to march out to the <span class="DLF">front gate</span> because probably the...the guard wouldn't know what's happened and we could go too close, very close maybe to them also.</sentence><sentence id="3981">But I heard a shot, Sasha jumping on the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">table</span> and he start to talk, "Listen."</sentence><sentence id="3982">Something in this sense. "</sentence><sentence id="3983">Listen to me."</sentence><sentence id="3984">I remember only one sentence from the whole talk.</sentence><sentence id="3985">It was very short.</sentence><sentence id="3986">"The time did come that we will take revenge.</sentence><sentence id="3987">We killed practical all the Germans.</sentence><sentence id="3988">Now let's stood up and fight our way out."</sentence><sentence id="3989">In this sense...but the sentence I remember exactly what he said was: "If someone, if you will survive, he should remember to told...to tell the world the story of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span>."</sentence><sentence id="3990">And that what I did never forget, and that what I am doing.</sentence><sentence id="3991">And suddenly...I don't know if this was arranged, prearranged or not, but while he was still talking somebody yelled, "Hoorah!"</sentence><sentence id="3992">from the people standing.</sentence><sentence id="3993">And another one picked up, "Hoorah!";</sentence><sentence id="3994">and the third one, and suddenly everybody, "Hoorah, Hoorah," and start to run.</sentence><sentence id="3995">I 9 didn't want to carry an ax, so I picked up a knife.</sentence><sentence id="3996">I prepared a knife from before.</sentence><sentence id="3997">It was easy to hide a knife.</sentence><sentence id="3998">Was a knife somebody probably from some...somebody brought us...to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sobibor</span> maybe a rabbi or so...or so, because had pearl handles and the on..on the handle was written Kusheshov Paisach (ph) [NB: Kosher for Pesach].</sentence><sentence id="3999">It's some kind traditional knife.</sentence><sentence id="4000">Was big, so I took it.</sentence><sentence id="4001">My knife in the hand and start to run with it and biggest group to the <span class="DLF">gate</span> leading up to Lager 1, and over there I remember one Ukrainian did come by accident...did start to drive in with his <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bike</span>, and he was thrown immediately from his <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bike</span>, and I remember the bell was cut immediately with the gun.</sentence><sentence id="4002">And while running through I know... remember and on the left side, a Ukrainian guard with his rifle standing like that...like a...like a fixiated and just turning around himself.</sentence><sentence id="4003">He could use the rifle and shot, but he was handling it like a stick, like somebody hold...hold a can...cane, and just turning around.</sentence><sentence id="4004">He didn't...he didn't know what to do.</sentence><sentence id="4005">And I was running to go with the people to the <span class="DLF">front gate</span> and half way I heard some whistles...shot was all the time, but I heard whistles like from bullets whistling and I noticed and I, on the left side behind a <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> is a German with a machine gun shotting at us.</sentence><sentence id="4006">And here two my friend fall down, another one third.</sentence><sentence id="4007">And I started to back up.</sentence><sentence id="4008">I did run back.</sentence><sentence id="4009">While everybody was running...running to the front, I did run back.</sentence><sentence id="4010">And...uh... some way I find my way to a little <span class="DLF">gate</span> in a <span class="INT_SPACE">hallway</span> for the guards, because between the <span class="DLF">fences</span> guards were walking, this time empty.</sentence><sentence id="4011">Probably I went into that <span class="DLF">gate</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4012">Luckily, I had behind myself...I left one <span class="DLF">barbed wire fence</span> and another <span class="DLF">barbed wire fence</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4013">Now | had only one <span class="DLF">barbed wire fence</span> in minds.</sentence><sentence id="4014">Come to the <span class="DLF">fence</span>, the last <span class="DLF">fence</span>...the freedom is, only the <span class="DLF">fence</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4015">I can't go through because I had a knife.</sentence><sentence id="4016">If I had a ax I would cut a <span class="DLF">hole</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4017">Instead, I don't know what to do.</sentence><sentence id="4018">And here close me was Sasha Pechersky and Shlomo Szmajzner [NB: Stanislaw Szmajzner; surname also spelled Sjmyzner].</sentence><sentence id="4019">Now, Shlomo Szmajzner had a rifle, and I remember what...this a minute later.</sentence><sentence id="4020">And Sasha was with a knife only.</sentence><sentence id="4021">And sudden, and suddenly a man appeared with a...with a ax and start to cut.</sentence><sentence id="4022">He made a <span class="DLF">hole</span> in...in the <span class="DLF">fence</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4023">Now...but more and more people come and they don't wait in the <span class="DLF">line</span> when machine guns are shotting at us to go through the <span class="DLF">hole</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4024">They start to climb on top of the <span class="DLF">fence</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4025">In that time exactly when I was halfway going through the <span class="DLF">hole</span>, the <span class="DLF">fence</span> collapsed from the heaviness of the...of the...from the weight of the people which actually I thought that time...and it was over me, and that time I thought this is the end of me.</sentence><sentence id="4026">But actually, this saved me.</sentence><sentence id="4027">Because the first few went through I could see why the people is depending on me.</sentence><sentence id="4028">The <span class="DLF">mines</span> exploding and bodies flowing there.</sentence><sentence id="4029">And finally when...when everybody when through at least at that part of the <span class="DLF">fence</span> and I can't go out...from ...from the <span class="DLF">fence</span> because the barbed wire did go in in the clothing.</sentence><sentence id="4030">So I left my coat.</sentence><sentence id="4031">By the way, I had a leather coat from...I took it the last minute from the <span class="INT_SPACE">storeroom</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4032">It was also maybe lucky because the...the barbed wire wasn't able to go in too deep to the...my shirt or whatever.</sentence><sentence id="4033">Anyway, I just slid out from under my coat and start to run.</sentence><sentence id="4034">I fall down a couple of times.</sentence><sentence id="4035">I thought I'm shot and I wasn't.</sentence><sentence id="4036">I start to run until I reached the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4037">Now, I'll really speed up.</sentence><sentence id="4038">Come to the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4039">We are wandering about the day, the next day we come to a <span class="NPIP">point</span> and we under...I already understood that it's not good to run there.</sentence><sentence id="4040">We are about 50 people.</sentence><sentence id="4041">The next day we met another 30 people.</sentence><sentence id="4042">So, and I've seen 0 that we are too many and must...something must be done.</sentence><sentence id="4043">But...uh...we still kept together until one...until early in the morning.</sentence><sentence id="4044">I remember we stopped out of the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span> and Sasha said that we must go out to check where we are, and they need money.</sentence><sentence id="4045">So whoever had the money to give money to buy food.</sentence><sentence id="4046">And all the men with rifles did left.</sentence><sentence id="4047">Nine people with weapons left.</sentence><sentence id="4048">We were against it.</sentence><sentence id="4049">We understood that something is wrong.</sentence><sentence id="4050">Only Shlomo Szmajzner was left, only because the rest of us surrounded him that we must have a guy with arifle left.</sentence><sentence id="4051">And he promised he will come back.</sentence><sentence id="4052">He did never come back.</sentence><sentence id="4053">I talked with him later after the war.</sentence><sentence id="4054">Or maybe I shouldn't go into this.</sentence><sentence id="4055">He said when I met him that this was his soldier duty to go back to...to the army.</sentence><sentence id="4056">Anyway.</sentence><sentence id="4057">So when he left there was real tragedies because groups start to form.</sentence><sentence id="4058">The weak people did want to go with the strong ones.</sentence><sentence id="4059">And it was unforgettable...unforgettable scenes, which I won't even to go in it.</sentence><sentence id="4060">Finally, I took two boys and we left.</sentence><sentence id="4061">Shmuel Wycen [NB: Samuel Weitzen], who used to work with me as a fireman, and his friend, Kostman, Fredrick.</sentence><sentence id="4062">We eluded the guards.</sentence><sentence id="4063">We eluded the...the Germans and we made it to mine hometown, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4064">Over there, I thought I have a Polish friend who was a good friend of my family who will hide us.</sentence><sentence id="4065">The two boys didn't want to go into the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4066">They were in the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4067">But I left to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> in the evening, hoping that nobody will recognize me.</sentence><sentence id="4068">It was sort of dark.</sentence><sentence id="4069">I come to the Polish lady.</sentence><sentence id="4070">She didn't want to hide me.</sentence><sentence id="4071">So I left back and told the guys, "Listen, it's no way.</sentence><sentence id="4072">We must look for another <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4073">But you know what?</sentence><sentence id="4074">Let go first eat.</sentence><sentence id="4075">We're hungry.</sentence><sentence id="4076">Come."</sentence><sentence id="4077">Not far, we have seen light from a little <span class="DLF">farm</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4078">And we go to this <span class="DLF">farm</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4079">We were afraid to go in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">villages</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4080">But these were <span class="DLF">farms</span>..were little <span class="DLF">farms</span>...little <span class="BUILDING">houses</span> ... uh...single <span class="BUILDING">houses</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4081">So we were not as...not as scared so much.</sentence><sentence id="4082">We went into this little <span class="BUILDING">house</span>, little <span class="DLF">farm</span>, we have seen from the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4083">We come.</sentence><sentence id="4084">There's light.</sentence><sentence id="4085">We go into the <span class="INT_SPACE">kitchen</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4086">There's food on the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">table</span>, but no people.</sentence><sentence id="4087">We call...I call, "Farmer, Farmer."</sentence><sentence id="4088">In Polish: "<span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Dzier_awca</span>."</sentence><sentence id="4089">Nobody answered.</sentence><sentence id="4090">Finally, we go back to this <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> and start to eat.</sentence><sentence id="4091">We go back out again and finally, I see a little boy.</sentence><sentence id="4092">We asked him, "Listen.</sentence><sentence id="4093">Come here.</sentence><sentence id="4094">Where your father?"</sentence><sentence id="4095">And he comes.</sentence><sentence id="4096">He recognized we are Jews.</sentence><sentence id="4097">And he said, "Oh, my father and mother are scared.</sentence><sentence id="4098">They thought you are...you are bandits.</sentence><sentence id="4099">And they're robbing so much here."</sentence><sentence id="4100">So he called the parents.</sentence><sentence id="4101">The parents did come down with his sister.</sentence><sentence id="4102">I recognized his sister.</sentence><sentence id="4103">I used to go to <span class="BUILDING">school</span> with mine... with...with me.</sentence><sentence id="4104">And the atmosphere start to get warm, and later I told him, "Listen, Mr. Bojarski, what would you take to hide us?</sentence><sentence id="4105">You are far away from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4106">Close to the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4107">No neighbors.</sentence><sentence id="4108">We will pay you good.</sentence><sentence id="4109">And I have a <span class="BUILDING">house</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4110">After the war, I will give you this <span class="BUILDING">house</span> we have in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Izbica</span>."" "</sentence><sentence id="4111">I will think about it.</sentence><sentence id="4112">Go back to the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>."</sentence><sentence id="4113">To make it short, in a couple of days he agreed to hide me.</sentence><sentence id="4114">We did put in so much gold and diamonds, and he was excited.</sentence><sentence id="4115">His wife took a ring.</sentence><sentence id="4116">His daughter, earrings. "</sentence><sentence id="4117">Take it.</sentence><sentence id="4118">Keep it.</sentence><sentence id="4119">Fine."</sentence><sentence id="4120">He built a <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span> in the <span class="BUILDING">barn</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4121">In the corner in the <span class="BUILDING">barn</span>, he put in a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">table</span>, covered it with a lot of straw.</sentence><sentence id="4122">From <span class="NPIP">outside</span>, you had a panel which he opened to give us food. (</sentence><sentence id="4123">Sigh) Okay.</sentence><sentence id="4124">We were...I will skip also my adventures in 1 this <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span> and the way I did try to go out because I recognize it's late.</sentence><sentence id="4125">And I will go to a point where once in the nighttime, we hear some...the dog barking.</sentence><sentence id="4126">People screaming.</sentence><sentence id="4127">Finally, we heard people coming in in the <span class="BUILDING">barn</span> and yelling to him, "Tell me, where do you have the Jews?"</sentence><sentence id="4128">Show me the Jews."</sentence><sentence id="4129">And he...we recognized the voice of the farmer, "There's no Jews here.</sentence><sentence id="4130">No, there're no Jews." "</sentence><sentence id="4131">Yes, we know there're Jews." "</sentence><sentence id="4132">No, there're no." "</sentence><sentence id="4133">So tell me...where do you have...so nice, from where do you have so nice clothing?You go to <span class="BUILDING">church</span> nicely dressed, and your wife..." Well, I understood.</sentence><sentence id="4134">We were so happy that he didn't drink.</sentence><sentence id="4135">Because a lot of Poles are drinking.</sentence><sentence id="4136">He didn't.</sentence><sentence id="4137">But what he has done, he Hoved nice] clothing always.</sentence><sentence id="4138">Shoes for his sons, pants, sweaters; so this was noticible.</sentence><sentence id="4139">So anyway, and they start to look for us in the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">straw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4140">They didn't find us and they left.</sentence><sentence id="4141">After they left he did come in in the <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span>. "</sentence><sentence id="4142">You see what's happened?</sentence><sentence id="4143">What would happen," he said, "he did discover you?</sentence><sentence id="4144">They would kill you.</sentence><sentence id="4145">They would kill me.</sentence><sentence id="4146">And the worse is that...what a shame would be to my family when they...they did find out that we're hiding Jews."</sentence><sentence id="4147">Now I...I didn't have formal education, as I said, but I did read a lot.</sentence><sentence id="4148">And he had a big cross on..on his chest and asked him, "Mr. Bojarski, why are you ashamed?</sentence><sentence id="4149">Why...why should your family...should family be ashamed?</sentence><sentence id="4150">You know Jesus Christ was a Jew."</sentence><sentence id="4151">For him it was the biggest insult.</sentence><sentence id="4152">To accuse Jesus Christ of being a Jew!</sentence><sentence id="4153">And probably when I told him...on top of it, I told him the picture, "Last Supper," he has in the <span class="INT_SPACE">kitchen</span>: All 12 apostles are Jews.</sentence><sentence id="4154">And the...it was that a insult to him that I accused the apostles being Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="4155">Anyway, he went out mad.</sentence><sentence id="4156">Couple of days later he comes, "Guys, I have for you guys a <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4157">Because I find out that the Germans will search for Jews in any <span class="DLF">farm</span> which is close to the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4158">So only for 3 days I made another <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span>."</sentence><sentence id="4159">And one evening, he did come.</sentence><sentence id="4160">He told us to go out.</sentence><sentence id="4161">And I expected <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span> if he's so afraid he will do it, he will make it some <span class="NPIP">place</span> far away from him in the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>, I mean.</sentence><sentence id="4162">But he made it right out behind the <span class="BUILDING">barn</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4163">It was already suspicious, but I still didn't suspect.</sentence><sentence id="4164">We didn't remember he.... When I went behind the <span class="BUILDING">barn</span>, I noticed ...uh...a little <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">carriage</span> with two wheels.</sentence><sentence id="4165">Two wheel <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">carriage</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4166">No?</sentence><sentence id="4167">Like a <span class="DLF">platform</span> with two handles.</sentence><sentence id="4168">On top of it was a big millstone, a stone we'd make flour with it, in the old type <span class="BUILDING">mills</span> they have grinding stones.</sentence><sentence id="4169">Anyway, a big stone.</sentence><sentence id="4170">I didn't know it.</sentence><sentence id="4171">It was standing.... Later, I connected it.</sentence><sentence id="4172">Now, he picked me up here by mine waist and pushed me in that <span class="DLF">hole</span>, and later he pushed in another one and later we did ask him for a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">kerosene lamp</span> which he did give us.</sentence><sentence id="4173">Put in...have the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">kerosene</span> and looking.</sentence><sentence id="4174">We're were in a <span class="DLF">hole</span> about a meter and a half, a square meter and a half.</sentence><sentence id="4175">The <span class="DLF">roof</span> was...I've seen it from <span class="NPIP">inside</span>, a 2 by 4 long and across were pine branches and some straw.</sentence><sentence id="4176">The <span class="DLF">opening</span> was a round <span class="DLF">opening</span> maybe a square foot, a foot round or maybe a little bit more.</sentence><sentence id="4177">We barely squeezed in.</sentence><sentence id="4178">Was now pushed in straw on it.</sentence><sentence id="4179">And so on.</sentence><sentence id="4180">We are sitting <span class="NPIP">inside</span> and later we hear and that they're pushing something hard and something fall...very heavy on top of the <span class="NPIP">hiding place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4181">And what's happened, the 2 by 4 break down like a letter V. So we said, "Oh, God.</sentence><sentence id="4182">Is broken down.</sentence><sentence id="4183">Must go to him and tell him that everything is breaking...is breaking down.</sentence><sentence id="4184">So we tried to push out the straw.</sentence><sentence id="4185">Kostman was actually over there pushing out the straw.</sentence><sentence id="4186">He said, "I can't push out the straw."</sentence><sentence id="4187">Now the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">lamp</span> start to flicker...flicker, flicker and goes down.</sentence><sentence id="4188">And what is interesting.</sentence><sentence id="4189">I didn't feel 2 shortage oxygen, but the lamp didn't want to burn anymore.</sentence><sentence id="4190">| put in a match, start again to burn for a second, and out.</sentence><sentence id="4191">Later, even the match didn't want to start and I start to feel, you know, [not] enough <span class="DLF">air</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4192">And all the time the third one--Wycen, Shmuel--was holding with his arm the 2 by 4, it shouldn't break down.</sentence><sentence id="4193">He was supporting it.</sentence><sentence id="4194">So (clearing throat) Fredrich was, so Wycen screamed, "Pull down the straw!"</sentence><sentence id="4195">So we pulled down, still no fresh air.</sentence><sentence id="4196">He said, "Something is blocking the <span class="DLF">entrance</span>."</sentence><sentence id="4197">Finally, we hear something sliding and...and this breath of fresh air comes in.</sentence><sentence id="4198">And he opened it.</sentence><sentence id="4199">And now we are going out.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="4423">Q: Tom, we have about 4 minutes and what I need quickly is what happened and how did you get liberated.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="4425">A: Okay.</sentence><sentence id="4426">He did try to kill it.</sentence><sentence id="4427">He didn't make it.</sentence><sentence id="4428">He did give us...still we didn't believe it really.</sentence><sentence id="4429">We did go to the old <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="4430">And one...it didn't take much, but three days later, he did come with helpers.</sentence><sentence id="4431">Shot at us.</sentence><sentence id="4432">Shot at my two friends.</sentence><sentence id="4433">Shot at me.</sentence><sentence id="4434">I pretended to be dead.</sentence><sentence id="4435">Later when he took the...our clothing, and saying, "Now we will check the Jewish clothing for money," when they went to the <span class="BUILDING">house</span>, I did get up and run away.</sentence><sentence id="4436">After I run away, I was in the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span> for awhile.</sentence><sentence id="4437">Later, but he was...he didn't know I'm alive and if I'm alive he'll be in trouble.</sentence><sentence id="4438">Later and so he always watched us.</sentence><sentence id="4439">I was always a step in front of him.</sentence><sentence id="4440">And finally I did run away in a different <span class="REGION">area</span> where a few Poles did...did know my father, as a Polish...what would I say?</sentence><sentence id="4441">Patriot...and helped me into...go into a Polish partisan organization called "Bataliony Chlopskie," peasants battalions.</sentence><sentence id="4442">And I worked over there as a courier until the end of the war.</sentence><sentence id="4443">This the whole story.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="4463">Q: Tom, thank you very much.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="4465">A: You're welcome.</sentence><sentence id="4466">How long did we talk?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="4469">Q: It's three hours.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="4471">A: Good.</sentence><sentence id="4472">I did good.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="4475">Q: Yah.</sentence><sentence id="4476">Yah.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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