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--- |
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layout: transcript |
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interviewee: david a. kochalski |
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rg_number: rg-50.030.0001 |
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pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0001_trs_en.pdf |
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ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504467 |
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gender: m |
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birth_date: 1928-05-05 |
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birth_year: 1928.0 |
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place_of_birth: nowy dwór |
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country: poland |
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experience_group: survivor |
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ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: garbatka-letnisko,warsaw |
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ghetto: none |
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camp(s)_encyclopedia: none |
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camp: none |
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non_ss_camp: none |
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region: west |
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needs_research: none |
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data_entry: cl |
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accession: none |
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revisit: none |
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tags: transcripts |
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--- |
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--- |
|
layout: transcript |
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interviewee: david a. kochalski |
|
rg_number: rg-50.030.0001 |
|
pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0001_trs_en.pdf |
|
ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504467 |
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gender: m |
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birth_date: 1928-05-05 |
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birth_year: 1928.0 |
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place_of_birth: nowy dwór |
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country: poland |
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experience_group: survivor |
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ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: garbatka-letnisko,warsaw |
|
ghetto: none |
|
camp(s)_encyclopedia: none |
|
camp: none |
|
non_ss_camp: none |
|
region: west |
|
needs_research: none |
|
data_entry: cl |
|
accession: none |
|
revisit: none |
|
tags: transcripts |
|
--- |
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<body><dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1">DAVID KOCHALSKI July 28, 1994</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3">Q: I need you to start off by telling me your name, place of birth, and date of birth?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="5">A: My name David Kochalski.</sentence><sentence id="6">I was born in a small <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> called , and I was born May 5, 1928.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="9">Q: Tell me a little bit about your family life before the war?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="11">A: Well, we were very hard working, six children, father and mother and we had a small <span class="BUILDING">mill</span>, flour, buckwheat.</sentence><sentence id="12">We were not prosperous but comfortable.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="15">Q: Did you go to a <span class="BUILDING">public school</span>, a <span class="BUILDING">private school</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="17">A: I went to two <span class="BUILDING">schools</span>.</sentence><sentence id="18">One was a <span class="BUILDING">public school</span> in the morning.</sentence><sentence id="19">In the afternoon I went to a <span class="BUILDING">religious school</span> until almost late at night.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="23">Q: So your family was fairly religious?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="25">A: Yes.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="27">Q: And <span class="COUNTRY">Judaism</span> was important to you?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="29">A: Well, I raised in the spirit of Judaism.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="31">Q: Now, when you went to the <span class="BUILDING">public school</span> you had a lot of friends who were not Jewish?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="33">A: No, the <span class="BUILDING">school</span> itself, in this little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>, was segregated between Catholics and Jews.</sentence><sentence id="34">Mind you, it was a small <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>, and I would say the majority of the people in that small <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> were Jewish people.</sentence><sentence id="35">Inside the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>, somehow, I don't know why, but they separated us Jewish children and Catholic children.</sentence><sentence id="36">As you know, most of the people in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span> were Catholic.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="41">Q: Did you have friends who were Catholics?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="43">A: Yes, I used to have friends.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="45">Q: Did you feel any anti-semitism growing up?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="47">A: Yes, I did.</sentence><sentence id="48">I felt it, maybe not personally, but I knew of a lot of incidents whereby either they were small little -- I would call it -- we were separated, in other words, but hardly got together, and there were incidents.</sentence><sentence id="49">Incidents, not pleasant incidents, because we were called in from the <span class="BUILDING">house</span>, people regardless of how religious we were, did not believe that we were really religious people.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="53">Q: Were there any incidents with your brothers or sisters that you remember?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="55">A: No, other than we were a lovely family.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="57">Q: Were there a lot of cultural or social organizations, political organizations in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="59">A: Yes there were Zionists in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>.</sentence><sentence id="60">There were Socialists, there were Communists, even though at that time Communists had to go underground, and religious institutions.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="63">Q: Were your parents active in the Zionist movement?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="65">A: My parents were, I would say, Zionists, and very religious.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="67">Q: What did you know about Hitler and the rise of Nazism before the war?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="69">A: I was aware what was going on even though I was a very young youngster.</sentence><sentence id="70">My father used to subscribe to many <span class="BUILDING">newspapers</span>, Jewish in origin and non-Jewish papers, papers that had nothing to do with us.</sentence><sentence id="71">However, my father and my brother and all the rest of them we used to discuss those things.</sentence><sentence id="72">They used to discuss and I used to listen, and I knew what was going on.</sentence><sentence id="73">In fact, I remember when they were chasing out Jews from <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span>, who were of Polish origin, my father took in some of them, a couple of them, to stay with them because they came out of there with nothing.</sentence><sentence id="74">They really went from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> amongst Jews.</sentence><sentence id="75">There were so many of them that people had to help.</sentence><sentence id="76">So, I was aware, until the war, very much aware, what was going on.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="85">Q: They told stories of what was going on in <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="87">A: Definitely, yes.</sentence><sentence id="88">In a <span class="BUILDING">public school</span>, since it was more or less a <span class="BUILDING">Jewish school</span>, in other words, we did not speak Jewish there, it was Polish, history, everything was Polish, and the guy who was --what do you call it?</sentence><sentence id="89">He was not Polish, the guy who was running the <span class="BUILDING">school</span>, he was not Jewish, he was Polish.</sentence><sentence id="90">In other words, he was a Catholic, so we were aware amongst us kids, because sometimes we were not greeted in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> very well.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="95">Q: Did you have any idea what was happening in <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span> might come to your <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="97">A: Yes, because people were aware that eventually Hitler will overrun <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>.</sentence><sentence id="98">It was known between people that he's not going to stop at that time in <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span>.</sentence><sentence id="99">He had great -- in other words, he had great expansion ideas, and he asked the Polish government to give him almost everything they needed, or wanted.</sentence><sentence id="100">So, we knew it was going to be sooner or later.</sentence><sentence id="101">A few days before the war they already had black outs in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>, because at that time, I would say the Russians and the Poles signed an agreement.</sentence><sentence id="102">It was about a week before the war, and everyone was aware that there will be a war.</sentence><sentence id="103">We did not know the particulars of what they signed.</sentence><sentence id="104">The Germans, the <span class="COUNTRY">USSR</span>, we anticipated there would be a war.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="113">Q: Was there anything that the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">community</span> did in preparation for this?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="115">A: I don't think so.</sentence><sentence id="116">The Jewish people naturally were very anxious.</sentence><sentence id="117">They already knew what happened to the people.</sentence><sentence id="118">They were thrown out.</sentence><sentence id="119">They already heard of the burnings of the <span class="BUILDING">synagogues</span> and everything, but they really thought it will pass if the Germans come in.</sentence><sentence id="120">It will pass, and Jewish people really believed that <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span> was going to be defeated.</sentence><sentence id="121">We were aware and the preparation was made in a way.</sentence><sentence id="122">People used to hoard food and everything, because they knew he was going to come.</sentence><sentence id="123">They had certain memories, Jewish people had certain memories of World War I where it really was benign.</sentence><sentence id="124">They occupied <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span> or part of <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span> and it was benign.</sentence><sentence id="125">In other words, the occupation, they were not harsh on Jews.</sentence><sentence id="126">On the other end, Jews were very friendly because our language, the Jewish language resembled German, so there were a lot of Germans in that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="127">They used to speak Jewish too, or Jews spoke German.</sentence><sentence id="128">So, the Jews kind of figured it will go over.</sentence><sentence id="129">Maybe the war will take a little longer, but it's not going to be that bad.</sentence><sentence id="130">They did not expect anything very bad.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="147">Q: Do you remember what the Catholic population was thinking?</sentence><sentence id="148">Were they eager for <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span> to come in?</sentence><sentence id="149">Were they prepared to fight them?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="153">A: At that time, it was more or less, I would say a partnership between Jews and Catholics, because they had a history, the catholics had a bad history of German occupations.</sentence><sentence id="154">The Jews already knew what was going to happen, that they are putting Jews in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">concentration camps</span> and so on.</sentence><sentence id="155">That they are really against Jews, the Germans.</sentence><sentence id="156">So, naturally at that point they were united.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="161">Q: Do you remember the day that was occupied by <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="163">A: What I remember is one morning, | think it was on a Friday, we were all sleeping and all of a sudden, a great bang in that little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="164">A bomb was thrown.</sentence><sentence id="165">We did not know it was a bomb.</sentence><sentence id="166">We all ran out and we saw <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">planes</span> going over.</sentence><sentence id="167">There was near the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>, not far from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> were German garrison (ph).</sentence><sentence id="168">They tried to bomb the <span class="BUILDING">garrison</span> but they missed.</sentence><sentence id="169">They bombed the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>.</sentence><sentence id="170">At that time, radios whatever you could hear, they announced already that the war had begun.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="179">Q: They tried to bomb a <span class="BUILDING">German garrison</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="181">A: No, it was a Polish Army garrison, which from what I guess, they wanted to bomb, but they probably missed.</sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="182">Q: Do you remember what was going on at this point?</sentence><sentence id="183">You went <span class="NPIP">outside</span>, you realized there had been a bomb.</sentence><sentence id="184">What did you see?</sentence><sentence id="185">What were people doing?</sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="186">A: Panic, immediately.</sentence><sentence id="187">There was great panic in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="188">People did not know what to do, to stay in that little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> or escape to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="189">My parents they went to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="190">All the six children and my mother.</sentence><sentence id="191">My father was in the militia.</sentence><sentence id="192">He was a young man.</sentence><sentence id="193">They took him in the militia to watch black outs.</sentence><sentence id="194">Once the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">German planes</span> came they either threw out -- they didn't throw them out, but they let go certain soldiers in parachutes.</sentence><sentence id="195">His aim, my father's aim, was to watch that a black outs and there were some people who came in there to bomb some <span class="DLF">bridges</span>.</sentence><sentence id="196">So my father was there, and my mother was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="197">Finally, my mother got very lonely or she was afraid that something was going to happen to my father, since he wasn't far, so she took me and we went back to that little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>.</sentence><sentence id="198"><span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> at that time was not spared, but they did not come yet, the Germans.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="212">Q: So, what happened after this?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="214">A: I went back with that little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>.</sentence><sentence id="215">My mother stayed with my father, otherwise he was in the Reserves, the Military Reserves, but she watched after him and I was around there and watched after the <span class="BUILDING">mill</span>, which we had.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="218">Q: It was still going?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="220">A: Yes.</sentence><sentence id="221">I stayed there.</sentence><sentence id="222">All of sudden we heard that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> was surrounded, and here my mother and father were very anxious because five children were there.</sentence><sentence id="223">We heard that the Germans surrounded them and the artillery is going, and there was no food because there were more than a million people in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="224">My father and mother decided that I should go back to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> to help the children.</sentence><sentence id="225">So, they loaded me up with flour, food, but it was very tough, tough for me.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="232">Q: You were talking about you were going to take some food?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="234">A: I had to take some food to help because starvation in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> my mother and father heard about.</sentence><sentence id="235">And you know, they have four children left helter skeltor in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> in a small <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>.</sentence><sentence id="236">So, they loaded me up with all kinds of food and they said, maybe he'll make it even though <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> was surrounded.</sentence><sentence id="237">It was very heavy what they put on, and I remember my father and mother, my mother would say to my father, maybe we'll never see him again.</sentence><sentence id="238">But I guess the urge to help the children was greater and my father kind of looked at me and probably thought the same way, will I go through it, because there were horses and people on the <span class="DLF">street</span> massacred, killed on the way to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="239">In other words, out of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> the Germans would also throw in a bomb, artillery, bombed it.</sentence><sentence id="240">Many people would walk through the <span class="DLF">streets</span> going to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> you would see carnage.</sentence><sentence id="241">So, my mother kind of kissed me and says who knows if I'll ever see him to my father, and my father clenched his hand and I turned around and I walked.</sentence><sentence id="242">I never saw them again.</sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="243">Q: How do you know what happened to them?</sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="244">A: Well, I came back from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>, that same day <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> capitulated.</sentence><sentence id="245">I want to tell you first.</sentence><sentence id="246">I made it into <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="247">It was very hard.</sentence><sentence id="248">It was very hard, but when I came <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> was surrounded there was a time they had what you call -- they stopped fighting to collect the dead.</sentence><sentence id="249">The Germans were fighting the Poles, the Polish Army.</sentence><sentence id="250">They were surrounding them and of course, the Polish Army had some fierce resistance.</sentence><sentence id="251">However, there was a time when they got the Red Cross or whatever, they arranged a one hour to get the dead out of the way.</sentence><sentence id="252">Germans and Polish.</sentence><sentence id="253">At that time, kids like us could go through.</sentence><sentence id="254">I made it and somehow when I came to a certain <span class="DLF">bridge</span>, since they bombarded the <span class="DLF">bridge</span> with artillery, I had flour in the bag and a piece of shrapnel went in there.</sentence><sentence id="255">The flour, we got out of it, but we had other food.</sentence><sentence id="256">The flour went on the <span class="INT_SPACE">floor</span> and I made it and I brought it to my brother and sisters, because there was starvation.</sentence><sentence id="257"><span class="BUILDING">Artillery</span>, there were people killed, burned, fire was all over.</sentence><sentence id="258">However, the Poles at that time they put up a tremendous heroic, what do you call it -- heroic resistance.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="274">Q: How old were you at this time?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="276">A: I think I remember I was 12 years old.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="278">Q: How far was the distance between your <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> and <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="280">A: Not far.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="282">Q: Did you walk or on a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="284">A: Only walking.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="286">Q: How long would it normally take to walk?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="288">A: It didn't take a day, I want you to know, because the carnage on the way was great.</sentence><sentence id="289">The <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">artillery</span> we had to go at midnight.</sentence><sentence id="290">Somehow I think it took two and half, three days until I made it in.</sentence><sentence id="291">It was like an inferno.</sentence><sentence id="292"><span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> was an inferno.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="298">Q: Weren't you frightened?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="300">A: What do you think?</sentence><sentence id="301">I certainly was frightened.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="304">Q: You were a little boy.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="306">A: I was frightened because there were fires and we never knew running through the <span class="DLF">street</span> whether the <span class="BUILDING">building</span> would collapse.</sentence><sentence id="307">And on top of it, since I was a little boy, after delivery I was told by the Polish Army, and rightly so, to help dig ditches in case the Germans advance.</sentence><sentence id="308">They called anybody who could do something.</sentence><sentence id="309">I was frightened, that's the answer.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="314">Q: When you were carrying all these goods to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>, at this time you were asked to help dig ditches?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="316">A: I helped do what?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="318">Q: The Polish people, the Polish Army dig the <span class="DLF">ditches</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="320">A: The Army in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> was preparing ditches against <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">tanks</span>, in case they advanced so any able bodied, any kid, anybody that could see on the <span class="DLF">street</span>, they made him come and do it.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="322">Q: Were you traveling alone or with people?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="324">A: A party of one.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="326">Q: Tell me a little bit of what happened next, you made it to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="328">A: Well, there was starvation, and the worst thing there was no water.</sentence><sentence id="329">We were hiding in <span class="INT_SPACE">basements</span>.</sentence><sentence id="330">It was really mayhem.</sentence><sentence id="331">People would stand in <span class="DLF">line</span> for bread, and artillery would just mow them down and kill them.</sentence><sentence id="332">It was an inferno, fires all over.</sentence><sentence id="333">The funny thing, it was during the Jewish holiday, but Jews no matter what it is, what is was, whoever had enough religious upbringing would hide in the <span class="INT_SPACE">underground</span> and have the services.</sentence><sentence id="334">Some of them stayed down there and were buried alive by the artillery.</sentence><sentence id="335">Not just artillery, but <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">planes</span>, where they would just circle the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> and fire whoever they saw or just at random at any <span class="BUILDING">building</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="344">Q: Did you attend any of these <span class="BUILDING">services</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="346">A: I don't think so.</sentence><sentence id="347">No, I was impatient.</sentence><sentence id="348">I would have liked to go back, but somehow -- I had other problems.</sentence><sentence id="349">We had no water and there was a <span class="ENV_FEATURES">river</span> and we were all running for water, to drink water.</sentence><sentence id="350">That's a very terrible deal when you have no water, and it was also very dangerous because there were not the Germans.</sentence><sentence id="351">At that time they were shooting the people who came for water.</sentence><sentence id="352">So, some of them never came back.</sentence><sentence id="353">I was very little.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="362">Q: Did you see the shooting?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="364">A: Well, certainly.</sentence><sentence id="365">It wasn't shooting especially, it was bombarding, you know from the air.l either get trapped or I ran away.</sentence><sentence id="366">IfI get trapped, then I wait there.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="371">Q: What else can you describe about conditions at that time?</sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="372">A: Jewish people were very scared at that time.</sentence><sentence id="373">I think, or I heard that most of the bombardment at that time was directed to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish quarter</span>, most of the bombardment and I guess Jews were very much congregated in one <span class="REGION">area</span> and the Germans were aware -- in fact they were aware of everything, but this in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="374">Q: Were you hiding in this <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish area</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="376">A: Yes, I was hiding in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish area</span> wherever I could.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="378">Q: Do you have any remembrance of any Polish catholic people you knew at this time.</sentence><sentence id="379">Did your relationship with them change or did you separate?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="382">A: I think it was very much -- there were cold sufferers and they used to meet at the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">river</span> if they get water, and it didn't make at that point in time, it didn't make any difference whether you were Jewish, Polish, catholic.</sentence><sentence id="383">At that point we were all Poles against the Germans.</sentence><sentence id="384">I want you to know the Jews were more interested to fight the Germans because they knew that they anticipated bad days.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="388">Q: How did that relationship start to change?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="390">A: At the time of bombardment, | think there was no animosity against each other because there was normally a one enemy, which had to be scared of.</sentence><sentence id="391">There was no real animosity.</sentence><sentence id="392">People would stand in <span class="DLF">line</span> for bread whether they were Poles, Catholics, Jews or anybody else.</sentence><sentence id="393">Each one was miserable.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="398">Q: Didn't that relationship, though, change?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="400">A: Not really, only after the war.</sentence><sentence id="401">It always changed later on.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="404">Q: That is not something you experienced?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="406">A: I did not experience anything like that.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="408">Q: I guess before we continue, when did you get any information about your parents.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="410">A: Let me tell you.</sentence><sentence id="411">As soon as the armistice was declared, the same day I picked up -- the rest of the children were still in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> -- I picked up and got through the <span class="DLF">line</span>, because even though there was an armistice, you didn't cross the <span class="DLF">line</span>, the Germans.</sentence><sentence id="412">However, children they let through, and we went through, and we went up a few kilometers and all of sudden I found out what really happened.</sentence><sentence id="413">I went with another friend.</sentence><sentence id="414">He was not Jewish, he was Catholic.</sentence><sentence id="415">We went back to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> and there was a German sentry and he called over because I did not know that they had at that time a curfew in the middle of the night.</sentence><sentence id="416">So, the German soldier just grabbed me and slashed his throat.</sentence><sentence id="417">So, I understood right now that I have a lot of worries watching myself.</sentence><sentence id="418">In the morning I walked.</sentence><sentence id="419">I couldn't go at night, in the evening.</sentence><sentence id="420">It took me another day to get through to see if I can meet my parents.</sentence><sentence id="421">In the front of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> I had an uncle.</sentence><sentence id="422">He had a little <span class="BUILDING">restaurant</span>.</sentence><sentence id="423">I walked into this <span class="BUILDING">restaurant</span>, nobody there.</sentence><sentence id="424">I got into that little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> and all of a sudden I see people that don't want to talk to me.</sentence><sentence id="425">Everytime I ask someone you know where are my parents, they took off.</sentence><sentence id="426">That kind of feeling, maybe they escaped.</sentence><sentence id="427">So, I went into that little <span class="BUILDING">mill</span> and people were robbing and I was just sitting until a man came over, a huge man, and he said "These people are robbing this kid.</sentence><sentence id="428">He's just an orphan."</sentence><sentence id="429">I didn't understand him.</sentence><sentence id="430">Then my uncle came in and he says to me "Don't you know about ," that's the time I got immediately, and I couldn't believe it.</sentence><sentence id="431">asked him where is it that they -- they are digging.</sentence><sentence id="432">I ran over and there was -- they were trying to dig for the people.</sentence><sentence id="433">They were just not my parents, there were bombs and maybe thirty people, twenty-five people in my uncle's <span class="BUILDING">restaurant</span>'s <span class="INT_SPACE">basement</span> that were all killed.</sentence><sentence id="434">They were all decimated.</sentence><sentence id="435">I took out and I recognized the skull and half of my father's clothes, a little bit of my mother.</sentence><sentence id="436">I got very sick, and I walked out, then I knew for sure that I didn't have any parents anymore.</sentence><sentence id="437">I got sick and dizzy and they took me to the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="438">Then, of course, they were buried in a certain <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="439">A few days later they took the remains of all the people and I came there and I made a mark so I can find it and well it comes later when I go fifty years later.</sentence><sentence id="440">That's how I met my parents again.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="473">Q: How long after the war began in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span> was this armistice when you went back to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="475">A: The armistice from the beginning it was about 30 days, the whole war, and mind you, from what I found out there were killed about 36 hours before the armistice they were bombed.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="477">Q: (Can't hear the tape)</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="479">A Yes, uncle, aunt, and other family, cousins.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="481">Q: (Can't hear the tape)</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="483">A: Not all, but most.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="485">Q: What did you do after this?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="487">A: Well, I was there, no communication with the children.</sentence><sentence id="488">They came about a week later and of course, we didn't know what to do.</sentence><sentence id="489">We were orphans.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="493">Q: I just want to ask you one questions.</sentence><sentence id="494">In terms of the ages of your brothers and sisters, were you little, were you young?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="497">A: I happened to be the third.</sentence><sentence id="498">We were six.</sentence><sentence id="499">I was the third.</sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="500">Q: So, you were there and you didn't know what to do?</sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="501">A: We didn't know what to do, and we were very depressed.</sentence><sentence id="502">Somehow, we found also our <span class="INT_SPACE">apartment</span> was bombed.</sentence><sentence id="503">We had to go ina little <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>.</sentence><sentence id="504">My sister had nothing to survive on -- my sister tried to make some food for people.</sentence><sentence id="505">Sometimes German soldiers used to come by and she would make some food for them in order to earn something.</sentence><sentence id="506">We stayed there, what I remember is all of a sudden my sister disappeared, and we were left.</sentence><sentence id="507">I did not know why, and I was very mad at her.</sentence><sentence id="508">But later I found out that the German soldiers tried to attack her.</sentence><sentence id="509">She was then, I think she was 17 years old.</sentence><sentence id="510">She was six years older than me, so she just took off one day, and run abroad to <span class="COUNTRY">Russia</span>.</sentence><sentence id="511">See, the Russians took half of <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>, and the Germans took the other one.</sentence><sentence id="512">This was the real pact, the map which separated <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>.</sentence><sentence id="513">So, my sister took off, somehow at that time it was chaos.</sentence><sentence id="514">Anybody who could run across even though -- it wasn't easy, but she made it.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="529">Q: The German soldiers tried to rape her?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="531">A: They tried, yes, but she was ashamed to tell us, and she escaped, and she left us five in that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>.</sentence><sentence id="532">She was the cook.</sentence><sentence id="533">Again, we were out of business I think about two months.</sentence><sentence id="534">We had to get out of there, out of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="539">Q: I know this is a difficult question but did you find out later whether the Germans were able to rape her?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="541">A: I really don't know.</sentence><sentence id="542">Maybe she was just afraid, I don't know.</sentence><sentence id="543">I asked her and she would never tell me, because she lives in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">San Francisco</span>.</sentence><sentence id="544">I keep on asking.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="549">Q: So, you decided to get out of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>.</sentence><sentence id="550">Did you know people there?</sentence><sentence id="551">Were you neighbors still there?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="555">A: In which <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="557">Q: The little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="559">A: The people were still there, all of them, except those who were hurt by the bombs or those who escaped to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="560">There were more or less -- it was right after the war and they did not suffer too much.</sentence><sentence id="561">We suffered because we were orphans.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="565">Q: Nobody tried to take care of you?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="567">A: It was just everyone for himself.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="569">Q: So what did you all do?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="573">A: We got together the first night, my brothers and sisters, went back to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>, and me and my little brother were left behind we could sell anything we had, and then we went to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="574">We all went to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="575">And of course, there was no <span class="NPIP">place</span> to be.</sentence><sentence id="576">It was already around December.</sentence><sentence id="577">Somehow my older brother, who was a university student got together with this professor to place us in an <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span>.</sentence><sentence id="578">He couldn't take care of us either.</sentence><sentence id="579">He was about 19 years old.</sentence><sentence id="580">So, he took us over.</sentence><sentence id="581">He had another one by the name of Adolf Therman who was the head of the Health and Children.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="591">Q: But this is the same --</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="593">A: I don't know.</sentence><sentence id="594">I knew him by the name of Adolf, because eventually I worked with him in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghetto</span>.</sentence><sentence id="595">They took us over across to <span class="NPIP">place</span>, at that time, and they separated my two little sisters.</sentence><sentence id="596">Also, at the <span class="NPIP">place</span> there was a place for girls and me and my younger brother over there.</sentence><sentence id="597">My older brother suffered probably , and I don't remember how he was existing, but later on I think he had a job.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="604">Q: So, you went to the <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span> you think about December of "39?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="606">A: It was close to January already.</sentence><sentence id="607">I'm sorry the exact dates I just don't know.</sentence><sentence id="608">I could know if I could concentrate.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="612">Q: What was the <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span> like?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="614">A: It was a big <span class="BUILDING">building</span>, many children over there.</sentence><sentence id="615">It was an organized like a government inside the <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span>.</sentence><sentence id="616">Each one had his own supposed to do certain things.</sentence><sentence id="617">They had a <span class="BUILDING">court</span>, they had people older people who took care of the youngsters to see that they washed, they cleaned.</sentence><sentence id="618">There were people who had to make up the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">beds</span>.</sentence><sentence id="619">It was just like an internal -- they had a <span class="BUILDING">court</span>, if someone deviated from certain things, he was punished.</sentence><sentence id="620">The doctor was just going around.</sentence><sentence id="621">He knew that you're going to do it right.</sentence><sentence id="622">However, I personally was a rebel in this, because most of the kids were just orphans since they were children.</sentence><sentence id="623">They knew their ways.</sentence><sentence id="624">I was very bitter.</sentence><sentence id="625">I was bitter that all of sudden my father used to care about orphans, and all of a sudden I'm an orphan.</sentence><sentence id="626">So, I did not go according to regulations.</sentence><sentence id="627">I used to run away to my brother's all the time, and I did not -- I would say I was not a good boy there.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="642">Q: Did they assign you certain jobs or duties?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="644">A: We used to get jobs, you know, cleaning dishes.</sentence><sentence id="645">Cleaning .</sentence><sentence id="646">I don't remember.</sentence><sentence id="647">I don't recall, but I tried to get away from it because I was not used to the kids and them with the routines.</sentence><sentence id="648">To me it wasn't routine.</sentence><sentence id="649">It was like punishment.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="656">Q: Now, did you get punished by the <span class="BUILDING">court</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="660">A: I was not punished, in fact they made me part of the <span class="BUILDING">court</span>, because I was an older boy.</sentence><sentence id="661">Somehow, the regimentation down there, I wasn't too respected because I was fresh one, you know.</sentence><sentence id="662">But they tried to give me some responsibilities.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="666">Q: How many people were in the <span class="BUILDING">court</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="668">A: I really can't recall, but I would say it was over a hundred.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="670">Q: Do you remember liking any of the staff or any relationships with them?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="672">A: Oh yes, with the older ones.</sentence><sentence id="673">We had <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">beds</span> of 30 to 40 in a <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>, and we had to have friends at night.</sentence><sentence id="674">We tried to get into mischief.</sentence><sentence id="675">I know now, kids are mischievous.</sentence><sentence id="676">On the signal to go to sleep, we pretended we were going to sleep, but we used to talk a lot.</sentence><sentence id="677">I had friends.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="684">Q: What did you talk about?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="686">A: Well, let me tell you, mostly child talk, because these children down there, they were raised differently.</sentence><sentence id="687">I was born, I mean I was raised and I spoke Yiddish quite a bit, but they spoke Polish only.</sentence><sentence id="688">Their vision of life was different because he taught them he really taught them discipline.</sentence><sentence id="689">They were schooled and schooled in certain <span class="REGION">areas</span>, they were way ahead of me.</sentence><sentence id="690">A few friends I had.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="697">Q: Were you going to <span class="BUILDING">school</span> at that time?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="699">A: Well, from what I know now, officially we're not supposed to have schooling.</sentence><sentence id="700">There was no schooling any more, no <span class="BUILDING">school</span> outside, but inside there were certain people who worked there for years and they were teachers and they gave us lesson.</sentence><sentence id="701">I wouldn't say that I attended them, but I did.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="705">Q: What do you remember about the <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span> that you appreciated?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="707">A: First of all the food.</sentence><sentence id="708">I appreciated the food because three times a day we were eating.</sentence><sentence id="709">It was just the beginning of the war.</sentence><sentence id="710"><span class="COUNTRY">America</span> was not at war then and they used to ship from <span class="COUNTRY">Switzerland</span> or from other areas, they used to ship food, so there was no scarcity of food, but I appreciated that because between the time I got into the <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span> and I lived in a <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> somewhere with my brothers and sisters, we had no food.</sentence><sentence id="711">That's what I appreciated.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="717">Q: Any other good memories about the <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="719">A: Yes, I had very good memories, very good memories, but I was bitter because I couldn't-- I think I was bitter because I couldn't imagine that I'll ever be an orphan at one time.</sentence><sentence id="720">I used to know orphans, you know either the father died, or the mother died and they put 2 them in, but all of a sudden I had both gone, and what hurts me more is that I had a couple of sisters there.</sentence><sentence id="721">I don't think the very young even knew that she didn't have.</sentence><sentence id="722">There was a little girl, she must be four years old.</sentence><sentence id="723">She was taken in, but she was asking a little bit about her parents.</sentence><sentence id="724">That hurts me, but otherwise I think I was stronger at time.</sentence><sentence id="725">I took it the way it was, because I was very happy they took me into that <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span>.</sentence><sentence id="726">I already seen young kids going around and asking for bread, but whether I was happy or unhappy, I don't know, but I appreciated being there.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="735">Q: Did you spend time with your sisters and brother in the <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="737">A: L used to see him not very often because all of a sudden, my older sister was very knowledgeable -- my younger sister.</sentence><sentence id="738">But the rest of them, they were very young, they got involved in playing, involved in the procedure of the <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="739">They had little girlfriends.</sentence><sentence id="740">That's it.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="745">Q: So anything else you can remember about the original <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span>, the way it was run, the teachers, the cultural activities?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="747">A: I already told you it was run like a government.</sentence><sentence id="748">This guy, I didn't see him very often I want you to know, but whenever I seen him, he was very lenient man.</sentence><sentence id="749">He if a kid was sick he would go by and pat him.</sentence><sentence id="750">He was very good, because I remember he even used to take out the excrement in the morning.</sentence><sentence id="751">He got up very early.</sentence><sentence id="752">I don't remember him very well because I was a stranger down there.</sentence><sentence id="753">He figured that probably that I am not his in Polish they call it .</sentence><sentence id="754">He did not raise me, you understand?</sentence><sentence id="755">He more or less, he liked more the kids which he raised.</sentence><sentence id="756">Don't forget that he was the kind of a man he read a lot of books which as I a child I was reading.</sentence><sentence id="757">Only of us children, all kinds of mysteries about how children behave and and we used to have <span class="BUILDING">theaters</span> there too.</sentence><sentence id="758">We used to have what do you call , all kind of marionettes.</sentence><sentence id="759">In the beginning of the war you could do almost a lot of things, but the Germans were not organized yet.</sentence><sentence id="760">They couldn't cope with a half a million Jews, and the Jews were not, at that time, segregated.</sentence><sentence id="761">3 Tape #2</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="777">Q: Any other memories of ?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="779">A: Other than seeing them go out, we were waiting for him a lot of times.</sentence><sentence id="780">He was busy almost every day, going out and arranging for help.</sentence><sentence id="781">This <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span> was very organized.</sentence><sentence id="782">It was, I think at that time, it was even run by the Polish, by the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>, but there were many, many <span class="BUILDING">orphanages</span> at that time in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="783">I am going to run away from myself.</sentence><sentence id="784">That's how we organized later when I had to leave.</sentence><sentence id="785">I haven't got too many memories of that man because I was there only a short time.</sentence><sentence id="786">He would go around and check, ask if we had enough to eat maybe comfort me once in a while, say everything will work out, and the staff was very nice.</sentence><sentence id="787">The staff there understood that I was just a freshly baked orphan, so they were nice to me.</sentence><sentence id="788">They knew also that I had a brother, a little brother, my two sisters and so that's all I remember.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="799">Q: Do you remember any of the in particular, Stephan?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="801">A: Stephan, yes I saw her once in a while.</sentence><sentence id="802">An elderly lady who was very nice.</sentence><sentence id="803">That's all I know, and I used to ask her how my little sisters are.</sentence><sentence id="804">She said don't worry about them.</sentence><sentence id="805">They are fine.</sentence><sentence id="806">I used to come in and she's show me the little children were dancing.</sentence><sentence id="807">I think my little one forgot all about my parents.</sentence><sentence id="808">She was involved in the life.</sentence><sentence id="809">The older one --.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="819">Q: How long were you in the <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="821">A: The best that I can recall I would say almost two months.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="823">Q: Then what happened?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="825">A: Then he organized, we must have organized it before, there was a place somewhere in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>, in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish district</span> and they called that -- they took all the older boys down there all the freshly orphans which they took in, boys only, and they organized what they called a <span class="BUILDING">House of Boys</span>, under their supervision, but they had a different administrator.</sentence><sentence id="826">That administrator was a professor, a Jewish professor.</sentence><sentence id="827">So, they took us, this guy would and other guys who were approximately over 11 years old, and they organized a new <span class="BUILDING">home</span>.</sentence><sentence id="828">This <span class="BUILDING">home</span> was, again, they tried to get us to gover -- which you'll see in this little book and it was very nice, I want you to know.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="834">Q: What was the name of the Professor?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="836">A: From what I remember, I did not remember, but my friend told me it was 4</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="838">Q: How many boys were at this <span class="BUILDING">House of Boys</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="840">A: Eventually they took a lot of boys off the <span class="DLF">street</span>, too, and I would think I would say between 70, around there, 80.</sentence><sentence id="841">My little brother could have stayed with him, but he didn't want to stay.</sentence><sentence id="842">He wanted to go with me.</sentence><sentence id="843">We were both there</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="848">Q: What was different from this <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span> from the other <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="850">A: It was completely different.</sentence><sentence id="851">The task of this <span class="NPIP">place</span> was we should be more or less responsible even economically for everything.</sentence><sentence id="852">They used to send children like to <span class="BUILDING">barbers</span> where they cleaned up.</sentence><sentence id="853">They used to send people to <span class="BUILDING">shoemakers</span> they should help.</sentence><sentence id="854">They used to send people out, the little older boys, because they were up to 15, 16, some of them even had a little children.</sentence><sentence id="855">Normally in Europe, if a kid finished <span class="BUILDING">school</span>, he became an apprentice somewhere.</sentence><sentence id="856">So, people used to make money, kids used to make money and they would take the money and buy food.</sentence><sentence id="857">In other words, you almost had to be self sufficient.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="866">Q: What kind of work did you do?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="868">A: I did all kinds of jobs.</sentence><sentence id="869">My first job was I worked with very responsible people who were directing the food distribution for all <span class="BUILDING">orphanages</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="872">Q: Were these Jewish people.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="874">A: Jewish people, only in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish district</span>.</sentence><sentence id="875">I can't tell you when it happened, but I can tell you what happened, because we at that point, a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghetto</span>, I mean were all together.</sentence><sentence id="876">Jews were separated, not completely yet, but they were separated.</sentence><sentence id="877">And we used to go out to all kinds of work.</sentence><sentence id="878">I worked with this -- he liked me this guy, and he directed the food distribution.</sentence><sentence id="879">He directed the people, had to hide whatever they had, the Germans would confiscate everything for free.</sentence><sentence id="880">So, they used to hide things in the <span class="INT_SPACE">cellars</span>, wherever they could and then bring it up, because the American was already working there for <span class="BUILDING">orphanages</span>, and I was there working.</sentence><sentence id="881">They used to bring all their wares, their samples and they would distribute all the samples.</sentence><sentence id="882">They didn't give them any money, but they gave them certain numbers in <span class="COUNTRY">Switzerland</span> that later on they'll be able to collect.</sentence><sentence id="883">Now, I know they never collected.</sentence><sentence id="884">But my job was .</sentence><sentence id="885">We used to - - we didn't have any horses or anything, we used to have a little <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">buggy</span>, long <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">buggy</span>, one on the side and I on other <span class="NPIP">side</span> and we would pull from <span class="NPIP">place</span> to <span class="NPIP">place</span> and distribute food.</sentence><sentence id="886">This I got so many bread.</sentence><sentence id="887">That was my first job.</sentence><sentence id="888">It lasted something like three months.</sentence><sentence id="889">Then I had other <span class="NPIP">jobs</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="906">Q: Do you want to tell me about your other <span class="BUILDING">jobs</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="908">A: You keep asking me because the last job was the job where I could not come back to the <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span> anymore.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="912">Q: So, let's talk more about the <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span>.</sentence><sentence id="913">So, you remember, this <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span> were you accepted a little more or were you still --?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="916">A: It was more responsible.</sentence><sentence id="917">We were older kids.</sentence><sentence id="918">We were reading newspapers.</sentence><sentence id="919">And I want you to know, it went like a <span class="BUILDING">university</span>.</sentence><sentence id="920">In this <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span> you had the biggest I would say doctors, the Germans as a rule tried to kill whether they were Poles or Jews all the intelligent, all the professors, doctors and colleges, all of them, so at this <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span> we had even though we knew who they were, but we had the very educated, most educated of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> and surrounding.</sentence><sentence id="921">They were professors, they were the chief rabbis of a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> called .</sentence><sentence id="922">They were they liked me, one guy wanted the best chore.</sentence><sentence id="923">There were other professors who were hiding there.</sentence><sentence id="924">They were cleaning, they were cooking in order not to be discovered by these Germans.</sentence><sentence id="925">And since they worked in <span class="BUILDING">orphanages</span>, I don't think the Germans checked too well.</sentence><sentence id="926">There were a few times they took out some.</sentence><sentence id="927">So, at night we were not allowed to go to <span class="BUILDING">school</span> -- when night came after supper, what I know now how education goes, we had a terrific lectures on everything.</sentence><sentence id="928">In other words, it was something like a <span class="BUILDING">university</span>.</sentence><sentence id="929">All the boys would sit down and they would give us lectures in history, Jewish history and then they would always give us geography and any other arithmetic every other night another professor would start teaching us.</sentence><sentence id="930">Then the rabbi would teach us Judaism.</sentence><sentence id="931">It was like a <span class="BUILDING">university</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="948">Q: You appreciated this?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="950">A: Very much.</sentence><sentence id="951">I wouldn't miss those things.</sentence><sentence id="952">I couldn't understand you know, I used to go to <span class="BUILDING">public school</span> and I didn't finish, so I couldn't understand how nicely the interpreter was.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="956">Q: Do you remember what <span class="DLF">street</span> this <span class="BUILDING">orphanages</span> was on?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="958">A: Yes it was on <span class="BUILDING">Gesha 6</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="960">Q: Do you remember any particular professors who were here that you remember their names?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="962">A: Those who were officially -- there was like people who worked there and they were also very educated people because they tried to -- you had to a lot of influence to get off the <span class="DLF">street</span> of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> and work in <span class="BUILDING">orphanages</span>.</sentence><sentence id="963">But at that same time they had to have a certain amount of education.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="966">Q: I was just asking for the record were there any younger leaders or professors there that you can remember their names?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="968">A: I really cannot recall names, but I know some of them didn't even give their real names because they were hiding.</sentence><sentence id="969">They didn't want to be killed by the Gestapo.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="974">Q: In the <span class="BUILDING">orphanages</span>, either of them, did you observe the Sabbath and the Jewish holidays?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="976">A: Why certainly, definitely.</sentence><sentence id="977">We were all Jewish kids and there was a chief rabbi down there.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="980">Q: Friday evening there were special ceremony.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="982">A: It was special.</sentence><sentence id="983">We maybe had a little more bread and we were singing the songs.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="986">Q: You rested on Saturday?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="988">A Not all of us.</sentence><sentence id="989">Those who had to work, and even some of them worked with the Germans <span class="NPIP">outside</span> the <span class="REGION">area</span> and they had to go.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="992">Q: What was involved with in this <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span>.</sentence><sentence id="993">Did he come by?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="996">A: He supervised and he came by I would say very often.</sentence><sentence id="997">He would stop by and check with the and he would recognize us.</sentence><sentence id="998">He would check to see with they guys who were running it.</sentence><sentence id="999">He felt that this was his responsibility, because a lot of them other than me they were also his kids who were brought up by him.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1004">Q: How long did you stay at the <span class="BUILDING">House for Boys</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1006">A: I would say about a year and a half.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1008">Q: Your brother also?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1010">A: My little brother, too.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1012">Q: Did you make good friends in this <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1014">A: Oh yes.</sentence><sentence id="1015">In fact, they used to bring new ones from the <span class="REGION">area</span>, very nice educated kids, those who were qualified they brought into work.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1018">Q: Was there an effort, now that the war was on and everybody's motives were changed so much, that they let in a lot more people who's <span class="BUILDING">orphanages</span> --</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1020">A: I don't know anything about before the war, but I'll tell you they did not they couldn't get into our <span class="NPIP">place</span> because the <span class="INT_SPACE">rooms</span>, the <span class="REGION">area</span> was very small and we had 30 40 people ina <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1021">I don't think they could absorb more but they did not have a <span class="NPIP">place</span> for them.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1024">Q: Did you notice maybe that wanted to protect everyone who needed protection at the time so he opened more <span class="NPIP">places</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1028">A: I have heard at that time that he was very influential even with the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> who was catholic, but they respected him and I think he did open a few more somewhere.</sentence><sentence id="1029">If he didn't open officially, he took them off the <span class="DLF">streets</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1032">Q: I've heard some crazy stories about , he's a character.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1034">A: Well, I would compare him to a hippie, I want you to know.</sentence><sentence id="1035">He never dressed, you know, and he wasn't really sophisticated.</sentence><sentence id="1036">He was just like a hippie.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1040">Q: He seemed to be able to help people, get money and really accomplished something incredible.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1042">A: What they tried to do in this <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span>, they tried to make human beings out of us under the worst circumstances because inside we were like an <span class="ENV_FEATURES">island</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1043">Outside it was <span class="NPIP">hell</span>, a real <span class="NPIP">hell</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1044">People were dying of starvation and even in the beginning they were dying of starvation, people some of their parents left for <span class="COUNTRY">Russia</span>, left the wife with the children.</sentence><sentence id="1045">It was very bad <span class="NPIP">outside</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1046">Here you tried to organize it in such a way that everyone either worked or if you couldn't find work give him a trade <span class="NPIP">inside</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1047">Little kids became shoe makers, cabinet makers.</sentence><sentence id="1048">They brought up old tools.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1056">Q: You said that you had other <span class="BUILDING">jobs</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1058">A: Yes, and this was my downfall.</sentence><sentence id="1059">I had other jobs where they used to send me I guess what happened is I wasn't strong enough to pull the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">buggy</span> so they sent me they had other jobs, to send me to people in <span class="BUILDING">factories</span> where they were making clothes.</sentence><sentence id="1060">But my last job, that was my downfall.</sentence><sentence id="1061">That was my downfall.</sentence><sentence id="1062">They sent me to a <span class="BUILDING">factory</span> outside the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghetto.[had</span> to go at 5:00 in the morning.</sentence><sentence id="1063">You had to go with the German sentries.</sentence><sentence id="1064">If they wanted to warm themselves up, they would chase me around just for exercise.</sentence><sentence id="1065">They would chase me around and around and made me run.</sentence><sentence id="1066">It was bad.</sentence><sentence id="1067">So, I went through it was a problem in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghetto</span> a big <span class="BUILDING">foundry</span>, a big <span class="BUILDING">factory</span> run by Germans and some Jews who before the war were foremen.</sentence><sentence id="1068">I used to get up in the morning hoping that I would get to eat something.</sentence><sentence id="1069">But somehow they didn't give me any food and the job was very horrid.</sentence><sentence id="1070">I had to pick up 30 or 40 pounds of burned up steel and throw them into the fire walking on the .</sentence><sentence id="1071">Iwas very week.</sentence><sentence id="1072">I couldn't do the job.</sentence><sentence id="1073">I was always thinking to escape.</sentence><sentence id="1074">It was horrible.</sentence><sentence id="1075">So eventually some Polish people who worked with me, they give me a piece of bread.</sentence><sentence id="1076">I was still hungry.</sentence><sentence id="1077">The <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span> -- the people were still sleeping while I was going to work.</sentence><sentence id="1078">I wasn't the only one, in other <span class="NPIP">places</span> they woke up early.</sentence><sentence id="1079">So, around noon time -- this was my downfall, maybe you should understand, I was very hungry, hard work for now I know for a boy was terrible.</sentence><sentence id="1080">I had to walk up with a load of 40 or 50 pounds.</sentence><sentence id="1081">Finally around noon time it wasn't arranged for me to have food and the Poles give me a little bread but they didn't have themselves.</sentence><sentence id="1082">They were working people, hard working people, and I explained I came from the <span class="BUILDING">orphanage</span> because I had to keep up with them and I couldn't keep up.</sentence><sentence id="1083">I think I was about 14 years 8 old, and I wasn't too strong either.</sentence><sentence id="1084">So, they took pity on me and they helped me a little bit, but I was still hungry.</sentence><sentence id="1085">What my downfall is, it started with a dog.</sentence><sentence id="1086">These people who ran the <span class="NPIP">place</span> they had their own big <span class="BUILDING">house</span> next to it.</sentence><sentence id="1087">They were German soldiers and German civilians because most of this was going for the armaments.</sentence><sentence id="1088">They were making <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">presses</span> there and everything.</sentence><sentence id="1089">Somehow they were always happened, but I noticed that the dog gets a lot of food after lunch.</sentence><sentence id="1090">The dog got a lot of food but I couldn't reach it.</sentence><sentence id="1091">Everytime I went by I wanted to grab something.</sentence><sentence id="1092">Finally I got acquainted over a week or two he would finish eating I would grab some.</sentence><sentence id="1093">He was happy, and it was good stuff for the dog.</sentence><sentence id="1094">I ate it and I felt good.</sentence><sentence id="1095">So one day, I could always get after he was finished.</sentence><sentence id="1096">If not, he would growl.</sentence><sentence id="1097">That was one day one of the foreman, I don't know if he was Jewish or non-Jewish, came out and grabbed me and slapped me and hit me.</sentence><sentence id="1098">You go taking away the food of the dog.</sentence><sentence id="1099">Don't you get enough food.</sentence><sentence id="1100">I was working there for two weeks, I had no food.</sentence><sentence id="1101">Nevertheless, he called a couple of other Germans over and he shamed me in front of them.</sentence><sentence id="1102">Because I know it wasn't the first time I got hurt that way, but , he had <span class="BUILDING">engineering place</span>, all kinds of instruments and a Polish engineer was there and he started hitting me again.</sentence><sentence id="1103">Aren't you ashamed he said.</sentence><sentence id="1104">You're a Jewish boy, to do those things.</sentence><sentence id="1105">When he hit me very hard, I got very excited and figured that's the end of me.</sentence><sentence id="1106">I grabbed a inch by inch a steel ruler and I grabbed it instantly without thinking and hit him in the glasses and I think I blinded him.</sentence><sentence id="1107">I escaped.</sentence><sentence id="1108">I could run through before the assessment checked by paper I was gone already anyhow, but I had legitimate papers anyhow to go from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghetto</span>, and I was afraid to go back in.</sentence><sentence id="1109">Then my little brother came out at night.</sentence><sentence id="1110">I was I think sleeping over at my brother's.</sentence><sentence id="1111">He said, don't go there.</sentence><sentence id="1112">The Jewish police are looking for you and if you go in there you might compromise the whole <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1113">I don't know to this day what happened to that man, but I know the glasses and blood was running out.</sentence><sentence id="1114">From then on I became what we call in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghetto</span>, a wild boy.</sentence><sentence id="1115">My brother didn't have enough food, so to tell you it was horrible.</sentence><sentence id="1116">I used to wake up 5:00 in the morning hoping there would be a lot of dead people on the <span class="DLF">street</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1117">Hoping I don't know maybe it was just that I wanted to live, but everyday hundreds of people would lay down and die.</sentence><sentence id="1118">They couldn't either take it anymore or sick or just froze to death or gave up.</sentence><sentence id="1119">I used to wake up 5:00 in the morning, I wasn't the only one I want you to know, and kind of stuffed my hands in the pockets of those half dead or dead people and whatever bread -- in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> everybody you couldn't go away without a piece of bread.</sentence><sentence id="1120">I got a piece of bread here, a piece of bread here.</sentence><sentence id="1121">Sometimes a dead person I would even take off a watch too, to help myself.</sentence><sentence id="1122">That's how I got breakfast, and some of it I had for lunch.</sentence><sentence id="1123">Some of the time I was beaten up.</sentence><sentence id="1124">They used to smuggle in potatoes.</sentence><sentence id="1125">If something fell I would grab and they would run after me and beat the hell out of me.</sentence><sentence id="1126">Hygiene, very dirty.</sentence><sentence id="1127">There was no place to take a <span class="INT_SPACE">shower</span> any more.</sentence><sentence id="1128">You go around desperate.</sentence><sentence id="1129">So, finally I decided I'm going to go out to the other <span class="NPIP">side</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1130">I didn't run away but to go out for some food.</sentence><sentence id="1131">One incident I want to tell you.</sentence><sentence id="1132">So, the situation was very bad.</sentence><sentence id="1133">Children, especially elderly people would be laying down there dead either of typhus or any other sickness or just frozen to death because they had no <span class="NPIP">place</span> to stay or they gave up.</sentence><sentence id="1134">I decided with other kids we're going to take a chance.</sentence><sentence id="1135">They used to take out groups to work <span class="NPIP">outside</span> the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghetto</span> so we were to get in there and as soon as we passed, the Germans did not especially check those who went 9 out, they only checked those who came back, so we used to go and beg for food.</sentence><sentence id="1136">One time, very early, I and two more friends, I'm sorry do you want me to tell you this is just the gist of one event.</sentence><sentence id="1137">We're trying to get in and beg for food.</sentence><sentence id="1138">We have learned already a little bit how to greet catholic people in their way.</sentence><sentence id="1139">So, it was about a four or five story <span class="BUILDING">building</span> and right after the curfew we got in there the superintendent opened there's a certain <span class="DLF">gate</span>, and each one of us went to a different <span class="INT_SPACE">floor</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1140">I knocked on the <span class="DLF">door</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1141">A woman looks and me and I try to cross myself and say whatever I knew and say what I had to.</sentence><sentence id="1142">She said to me, "Look, you don't have to do that.</sentence><sentence id="1143">I know who you are."</sentence><sentence id="1144">I probably wasn't the first boy to beg for food, but she was all messed up.</sentence><sentence id="1145">A nice woman and the first thing she asked me to take off my clothes and she prepared some hot water and especially we had so many lice on us they were eating us alive.</sentence><sentence id="1146">We did not look good.</sentence><sentence id="1147">That's how they recognized us anyhow.</sentence><sentence id="1148">So, she said don't worry about it.</sentence><sentence id="1149">Take it off and I'll burn it.</sentence><sentence id="1150">I will cook it.</sentence><sentence id="1151">Then she was cooking for me something like buckwheat.</sentence><sentence id="1152">And they were poor themselves.</sentence><sentence id="1153">She didn't have anything to give other than to cook something.</sentence><sentence id="1154">And I was hungrier than <span class="NPIP">hell</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1155">She sat down with me and I think she was a good woman, but all of a sudden she started talking religion to me.</sentence><sentence id="1156">She said it's such a pity that you Jewish children can not go to kingdom of <span class="NPIP">heaven</span> and he had to bring Hitler a man, the destroyer.</sentence><sentence id="1157">I kind of looked at her and I figured I was brought up religious in other ways, but I figured she's good, so I said okay.</sentence><sentence id="1158">Well, I understand, but what can we do we're hungry.</sentence><sentence id="1159">All of a sudden we were sitting down there and I didn't eat yet.</sentence><sentence id="1160">I hear a shot.</sentence><sentence id="1161">The superintendent of the <span class="BUILDING">building</span> must have called up the police, the local police and I looked down and one of my friends was shot.</sentence><sentence id="1162">He was shot in the leg and he fell.</sentence><sentence id="1163">I didn't know what happened yet to the guy on the second <span class="INT_SPACE">floor</span>, but that woman, we realized first I said hide me somewhere.</sentence><sentence id="1164">So, she took me in a <span class="INT_SPACE">closet</span>, in Europe they have, like you have hear, where you hang your clothes, inside they have <span class="NPIP">outside</span>, and she put me in there and she locked me up.</sentence><sentence id="1165">She covered me with all kinds of furs, whatever was in there and took the key out and went to the neighbors.</sentence><sentence id="1166">She was afraid that if they catch me down there, they'll kill her too.</sentence><sentence id="1167">So, she went to the neighbors, and I was lucky she took out the key with her so I didn't have any <span class="DLF">air</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1168">I was holding my nose against, and I was sweating and I thought this is the end.</sentence><sentence id="1169">They'll probably ask the other kid on the second <span class="INT_SPACE">floor</span> what happened, where I am who is the other one because the superintendent saw three kids coming, three Jewish kids.</sentence><sentence id="1170">Well, I was there, running was water, I thought this is the end of me.</sentence><sentence id="1171">I couldn't breath.</sentence><sentence id="1172">I think I passed out for a while.</sentence><sentence id="1173">All of a sudden I hear a scream and I thought it was German, but it wasn't, it was a husband and coming back and screaming.</sentence><sentence id="1174">He was a good man, he says look you have to kill us.</sentence><sentence id="1175">He was a railroad man, but don't suffocate him.</sentence><sentence id="1176">When they took me out, I didn't go out, I fell out.</sentence><sentence id="1177">But he was a good man, and he hid me with neighbors.</sentence><sentence id="1178">Gave me new clothes because my clothes were wet.</sentence><sentence id="1179">He was still cooking and food and everything and at night he took me through because he worked with the German Army and he was very connected with the police and I went through with a lot of food.</sentence><sentence id="1180">He gave me food and everything I brought in I think two weeks I ate.</sentence><sentence id="1181">I had food for two weeks.</sentence><sentence id="1182">What I'm trying to tell you is an accident again, I had to hide because the other kid was beaten to <span class="NPIP">hell</span>, almost dead.</sentence><sentence id="1183">The guy on the second <span class="INT_SPACE">floor</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1184">I don't know what happened to the first <span class="INT_SPACE">floor</span> whether they took him back to the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> or not.</sentence><sentence id="1185">I never met him.</sentence><sentence id="1186">This kid, the 0 other one, told on me and again I had to change clothes.</sentence><sentence id="1187">I had to make myself all kind of dirty things on it because I was cleaned up already, and they didn't recognize me.</sentence><sentence id="1188">But I was sought again by the Jewish police because the German gave him the description, who Iam.</sentence><sentence id="1189">Finally I think it's impossible for me to be there.</sentence><sentence id="1190">I am going to die there.</sentence><sentence id="1191">I went over to my brother.</sentence><sentence id="1192">I didn't even bother telling my younger brother, because we were close.</sentence><sentence id="1193">I said to my older brother, I said look I want on the other <span class="NPIP">side</span>, some of them recognized, some of them didn't recognize.</sentence><sentence id="1194">I am going to escape.</sentence><sentence id="1195">Whatever happens, happens, but I'm not going to die here like the rest of the kids.</sentence><sentence id="1196">So, he says look, tell me something, you go because there's no hope here.</sentence><sentence id="1197">I'll take you through.</sentence><sentence id="1198">The way they took through people was they went to work <span class="NPIP">outside</span> and they could squeeze me, but he was already an educated guy.</sentence><sentence id="1199">He belonged to a group they were revisionists, a group, a Zionist group and I guess he was more or less in underground already.</sentence><sentence id="1200">They had certain connections with people in <span class="COUNTRY">Slovakia</span> so he kind of drew up a map for me if I get over there.</sentence><sentence id="1201">He drew up a map.</sentence><sentence id="1202">You take this <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">boat</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1203">There was a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">boat</span> going.</sentence><sentence id="1204">There was a rive in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span> which goes through the whole country.</sentence><sentence id="1205">When you hit under the try to go across and we have connections with these people who are saving Jews.</sentence><sentence id="1206">So, he gave me a map and everything, gave me a few dollars, whatever he had and whatever I had, not much, and to go and get a ticket.</sentence><sentence id="1207">I walked out of the group which went to <span class="BUILDING">work</span> and ran away.</sentence><sentence id="1208">I want to tell you, he helped me, my brother he gave me whatever money he had.</sentence><sentence id="1209">He bought a little jacket for me and a little hat and proper shoes, not too good but shoes.</sentence><sentence id="1210">I went out there and I went to get a ticket and I went to get a ticket and I hesitated, I was moving back, because there was a <span class="DLF">line</span> of people, to go or not to go, because I think only older people go and I was just a little kid in between.</sentence><sentence id="1211">So, I moved out, all of sudden, with a German he asked me he says to me he grabbed me he says listen to me, don't go in there in German they said they'll you.</sentence><sentence id="1212">They will finish you off in German.</sentence><sentence id="1213">I pretended I didn't know a word of German.</sentence><sentence id="1214">So I was saying again in <span class="COUNTRY">Czech</span> again.</sentence><sentence id="1215">He got mad and he started talking in Polish.</sentence><sentence id="1216">He knew both languages.</sentence><sentence id="1217">He said you get the hell away from here.</sentence><sentence id="1218">They will kill you.</sentence><sentence id="1219">I have an idea after today, he was an angel and he saved me.</sentence><sentence id="1220">But where do I go.</sentence><sentence id="1221">I had a map, about a journey of two days hit the in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>, and i don't know where to go so I went to the <span class="BUILDING">Central Station</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1222">I went to <span class="BUILDING">Central Station</span> but my heart was pumping.</sentence><sentence id="1223">I didn't know whether they would recognize me, if they want to recognize me, but it looked like nobody paid attention to me.</sentence><sentence id="1224">I had a piece of bread.</sentence><sentence id="1225">This was early in the morning when I got out, and where do you go.</sentence><sentence id="1226">Finally, I was afraid to go because to go into that <span class="DLF">Central Station entrance</span> because there were so many German SS around there checking for 5 which means you had to have some kind of a -- something who you are.</sentence><sentence id="1227">They called them ,and I had nothing.</sentence><sentence id="1228">Where do you go, so I was just roaming around the <span class="DLF">street</span> and I reminded myself my father used to go once in a while took me with him to a rabbi, a big they had those semitic groups and they used to he was maybe 60 kilometers outside of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1229">But they had a little <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> there.</sentence><sentence id="1230">It wasn't large rails and small and it sort of dragged into that little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1231">So I said maybe down there there won't be so many soldiers.</sentence><sentence id="1232">And sure enough, I went down there, it was near dusk, I figured if it get a little dusk nobody will recognize me anyhow.</sentence><sentence id="1233">So, I got up, but I was afraid to buy a ticket.</sentence><sentence id="1234">I got up without a ticket and I figured if they catch me I'll take out some money 1 and give the conductor.</sentence><sentence id="1235">They weren't Germans, they were just Polish workers.</sentence><sentence id="1236">So, I sat down amongst the women.</sentence><sentence id="1237">They were smugglers.</sentence><sentence id="1238">They would smuggle in food to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> and buy clothes there.</sentence><sentence id="1239">This was their job.</sentence><sentence id="1240">So amongst them I sat between them they asked me where do you come from?</sentence><sentence id="1241">What are you doing here?</sentence><sentence id="1242">I told them, listen my father was a soldier -- I made it up-- I father was in the army and he was killed.</sentence><sentence id="1243">Iam looking for my mother because my father lived in the <span class="REGION">German occupied area</span> and my mother took off and she's supposed to be around this <span class="REGION">area</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1244">So, they started giving me salami, food, anything what I wanted.</sentence><sentence id="1245">When the conductor came he, they said you don't touch that kid.</sentence><sentence id="1246">In other words, they felt sorry for me because my father was killed.</sentence><sentence id="1247">I don't know how I got that idea, but it came into me the last minute when I asked me what am I doing.</sentence><sentence id="1248">I didn't have a ticket.</sentence><sentence id="1249">I was still scared.</sentence><sentence id="1250">When the rail -- the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">locomotive</span> slowed down and the front of that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> it was called and in the front of that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> there were a lot of Germans waiting I guess checking on those people who were smuggling and when it was slowing up, it was dark already, and I jumped off.</sentence><sentence id="1251">Where do you go now?</sentence><sentence id="1252">I was just running in the direction of the end of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1253">Dark, I went through a little <span class="ENV_FEATURES">river</span> up to here, and down across was a <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span> and I didn't know, you wouldn't believe it, I was hoping to God and I was sorry I left <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1254">I was real sorry, because I didn't know where to go.</sentence><sentence id="1255">It was dark, cold, wet.</sentence><sentence id="1256">I couldn't sleep.</sentence><sentence id="1257">In the morning some elderly lady, a woman, was carrying a can of milk to distribute.</sentence><sentence id="1258">I asked here where am I. I spoke very good Polish.</sentence><sentence id="1259">I was very good at it.</sentence><sentence id="1260">She says, first she gave me a little bit milk.</sentence><sentence id="1261">She says you're so wet, what happened?</sentence><sentence id="1262">I said I got in in that <span class="ENV_FEATURES">river</span> and I don't know where -- I got lost.</sentence><sentence id="1263">There's a little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> called <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Varka</span> (ph), not far, you go there.</sentence><sentence id="1264">I think it was Sunday morning, I figured I'm going to go.</sentence><sentence id="1265">What do you do?I went to that little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> in the morning and the sun came out and I dried out and I see all the people are going to <span class="BUILDING">church</span>, so I went down there to.</sentence><sentence id="1266">I was afraid to stay behind someone else's <span class="BUILDING">house</span>, and I seen a lot of those very old ladies sat down begging and people would give them.</sentence><sentence id="1267">I sat down too, but on the side I wanted to dry out.</sentence><sentence id="1268">One woman came over and said, "What are you doing little boy here between all these old people?"</sentence><sentence id="1269">I said I don't know.</sentence><sentence id="1270">I haven't got any money and I have a family.</sentence><sentence id="1271">My father was killed.</sentence><sentence id="1272">I used it, I knew it worked.</sentence><sentence id="1273">My father was killed -- they took out pieces of bread they gave me.</sentence><sentence id="1274">Other people said this was an <span class="BUILDING">orphan</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1275">His father was killed.</sentence><sentence id="1276">They gave me bread and little pieces of sausage.</sentence><sentence id="1277">In the meantime I dried out and they gave me a few dollars, a few .</sentence><sentence id="1278">The first few dollars I had.</sentence><sentence id="1279">They were selling crosses down there in front of the <span class="BUILDING">church</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1280">I gave the few dollars to that guy, and I got myself a very large size of across.</sentence><sentence id="1281">I figured it's going to help.</sentence><sentence id="1282">And I continued that day, I stuck around in that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1283">I went again, I was afraid to stay there.</sentence><sentence id="1284">I was always worried if they ar going to recognize me or not.</sentence><sentence id="1285">I figured if I keep going, I'll be dried out.</sentence><sentence id="1286">It's a small <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1287">So, I went through like a <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>, and in this <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span> the German firm was cutting <span class="ENV_FEATURES">trees</span>, I think for the <span class="DLF">coal mines</span>, the <span class="DLF">mines</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1288">There was a sign that was two days later -- there was sign whoever works will get so many marks.</sentence><sentence id="1289">In the <span class="BUILDING">mill</span> in the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span> they had like a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trailer</span> there and it wasn't army.</sentence><sentence id="1290">These were people, it was a company with Germans who were preparing those <span class="ENV_FEATURES">trees</span>, and a lot of Poles were working there.</sentence><sentence id="1291">I went over and I asked for a job.</sentence><sentence id="1292">L asked for a job and the woman she spoke German and Polish you know.</sentence><sentence id="1293">To the German she spoke German, to me she spoke Polish.</sentence><sentence id="1294">Don't you think you're a little bit too 2 young.</sentence><sentence id="1295">You had to be sixteen years old.</sentence><sentence id="1296">But I was very skinny too on top of it.</sentence><sentence id="1297">Don't you think you're too young.</sentence><sentence id="1298">You can't work because you're too young.</sentence><sentence id="1299">So, one of the other Germans, a foreman said, and I understood what he was saying, tell me you'll take him in and they'll let him clean up around us.</sentence><sentence id="1300">Clean up the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trailer</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1301">I'm telling you, as soon as she said can you clean a little bit, nobody ever cleaned better than I did.</sentence><sentence id="1302">I did a good job.</sentence><sentence id="1303">Then she asked me do you have anything to show who you are?</sentence><sentence id="1304">I gave the same story, my father was killed.</sentence><sentence id="1305">I came from a certain <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>, <span class="REGION">North Poland</span>, and I have got nothing.</sentence><sentence id="1306">She said, "I'll tell you what.</sentence><sentence id="1307">You work here next week.</sentence><sentence id="1308">I'll go with you to another <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1309">We'll make a photograph of you, a picture and then I'll send it into the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> and they'll bring you a work card.</sentence><sentence id="1310">I don't know, I think luck was with me at that time.</sentence><sentence id="1311">When she said I can have a work card, and she was good to me, because I really washed and cleaned and helped.</sentence><sentence id="1312">It so happened I got a work card, and I worked there for quite a while, maybe five or six weeks, until they liquidated the <span class="BUILDING">work place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1313">We cut enough <span class="ENV_FEATURES">trees</span> probably.</sentence><sentence id="1314">They hauled them away in <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trucks</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1315">They hauled them away in <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trucks</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1316">Now, where do you go now?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1578">Q: Had you changed your name for the work card?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1580">A: Why certainly, at that time my name was , with a W. I figured I can't keep my real name.</sentence><sentence id="1581">I had to have a Polish name, a Christian Name, and they used to call me , So I didn't know what to do.</sentence><sentence id="1582">Where do you go?</sentence><sentence id="1583">Finally, they were asking, I went to another <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1584">I already had a few dollars.</sentence><sentence id="1585">The foreman gave me money.</sentence><sentence id="1586">I was a polishing their boots, they had some horses, I was cleaning the horses, so I had quite a few marks at that time.</sentence><sentence id="1587">So, I went to a small little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> and then they had a sign.</sentence><sentence id="1588">I stayed by people.</sentence><sentence id="1589">They slept on the <span class="INT_SPACE">floor</span> and they told me there's a place where they're looking for hands, working hands to help on the <span class="DLF">farm</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1590">And I have to go to the head of the <span class="REGION">area</span>, who was naturally a German, a commandant and these people used to come and take the workers.</sentence><sentence id="1591">They wanted them to have a lot of workers, because they were supplying food for the Germans.</sentence><sentence id="1592">The Germans were confiscating food at that time.</sentence><sentence id="1593">So, I came into a big <span class="NPIP">place</span> there, and I registered my name take a look I got working papers.</sentence><sentence id="1594">They didn't ask me any questions.</sentence><sentence id="1595">And a guy on a horse and <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">buggy</span> took me to his <span class="DLF">farm</span>, and I had to start working on a <span class="DLF">farm</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1596">They didn't know who I was, whether I was Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="1597">I had certain problems there.</sentence><sentence id="1598">After a week or two I had to go to <span class="BUILDING">confession</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1599">Now, my father never went to confession, my grandfather neither, and I didn't know what to say either.</sentence><sentence id="1600">I understood what it's all about because the son of the owner had to go and went with me.</sentence><sentence id="1601">We went later than the people.</sentence><sentence id="1602">He went in down there and I'm telling you my heart is just pumping, what am I going to tell the priest.</sentence><sentence id="1603">What do you tell a priest, you know, I didn't understand.</sentence><sentence id="1604">I never did it.</sentence><sentence id="1605">Somehow I heard it.</sentence><sentence id="1606">I was so scared I put my ear to the little <span class="DLF">entrance</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1607">It was a little bit ajar and I understood what he said and I asked him, he said just tell him that you didn't do anything wrong.</sentence><sentence id="1608">I went in there and repeated the same thing.</sentence><sentence id="1609">I repeated the same thing and somehow it didn't work.</sentence><sentence id="1610">He took me out, it was a man I would say over eighty for sure, a priest.</sentence><sentence id="1611">And he asked me, tell me your parents were not from the old religion , Lunderstood that if you didn't say they were not Jews I understood right away that he was not such a 3 bad man.</sentence><sentence id="1612">If he would have been a bad man and said they were not Jews, but somehow he was very delicate about it.</sentence><sentence id="1613">I asked what kind of people are those , he kind of winked at me and said if you don't know, you don't know, but an old man wore those long robes, and I think, today, he recognized me, I was Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="1614">I did not do the right thing I know it, but he took advantage of me later, you know every time I had to clean up behind him in his <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>, he made me do it.</sentence><sentence id="1615">4 Tape #3</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1652">Q: When we stopped, you were telling me about the priest who sort of recognized you but didn't acknowledge you.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1654">A: He was a very nice man.</sentence><sentence id="1655">He never bothered me.</sentence><sentence id="1656">I think he recognized me and I did some chores for him so I didn't have to go back to confessions.</sentence><sentence id="1657">On a whole he was a heck of a nice man, because I used to go every other Sunday to him.</sentence><sentence id="1658">And I worked on a <span class="DLF">farm</span>, and I did anything people had to do on a <span class="DLF">farm</span> and of course, since I was not used to it, it was horrid, but I was very happy.</sentence><sentence id="1659">I had food.</sentence><sentence id="1660">The people down there treated me well.</sentence><sentence id="1661">I worked -- I think I ran out of work and to the best of my recollection I needed money because I didn't get too much money from the men but they gave me food, clothes, very nice catholic people.</sentence><sentence id="1662">So, I worked for a baker.</sentence><sentence id="1663">I went to work in a small little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> not far.</sentence><sentence id="1664">A little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> for a baker, the <span class="NPIP">place</span> was called <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Garbutka</span> (ph).Working for the baker, he was a very nice man, and I worked all night.</sentence><sentence id="1665">From what I can recollect, that's the first time I found out of the Holocaust with him.</sentence><sentence id="1666">Once we were through we sat down <span class="NPIP">outside</span> to rest.</sentence><sentence id="1667">It was like it wasn't even daybreak yet.</sentence><sentence id="1668">A <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> went down not far.</sentence><sentence id="1669">A <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> went down there not far from there and he said you know something, these Germans are going to pay, and they're going to pay heavily for the kind of barbarism they are doing now.</sentence><sentence id="1670">He told me in Polish.</sentence><sentence id="1671">He was mad.</sentence><sentence id="1672">He was a good man, and he said, you know something, these <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trains</span> which you see going through, they are burning people alive and getting them through the <span class="DLF">chimneys</span> and Jews.</sentence><sentence id="1673">I heard that and everything inside of me started shaking.</sentence><sentence id="1674">I did not believe it, you know.</sentence><sentence id="1675">I didn't believe it that this could happen, something like that.</sentence><sentence id="1676">They're burning -- I looked at him but I said I got very good information that that's what they do to people.</sentence><sentence id="1677">One day they will pay for it.</sentence><sentence id="1678">I was uneasy already, very uneasy.</sentence><sentence id="1679">And I heard, not far from there there was a little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Ghetto</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1680">That <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghetto</span> was --what they did the Germans got together shoemakers, what do you call it, tailors, other let's say people who were good in certain trades.</sentence><sentence id="1681">They got them together, and they worked for the Germans.</sentence><sentence id="1682">This was already after they liquidated most of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghettos</span>, and these people were living maybe a couple hundred of them and one man a shoemaker used to come to me the baker and he used to hide his shoes.</sentence><sentence id="1683">I think he recognized me that I was Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="1684">A very nice man, and he told me about the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Ghetto</span>, because he used to get out of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghetto</span>, all the shoes, bring them into <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghetto</span>, make some money and brought them back to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span>, made some money and came back.</sentence><sentence id="1685">One day, being in this little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span>, something must have happened some provocation or something, the Polish people around there were doing something, the underground which wasn't to the Gestapo liking.</sentence><sentence id="1686">They must have done something bad.</sentence><sentence id="1687">I didn't know anything about it.</sentence><sentence id="1688">All of a sudden, I want to tell you something, my mother comes to my <span class="NPIP">dream</span> she says listen -- everytime something happened bad my mother came to my <span class="NPIP">dream</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1689">She said in the morning you run away from there, and with that kind of thought I wake up and I , they are shooting people all over the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1690">They are shooting people in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1691">I kind of remember, but it was hard to escape.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1733">Q: Who and why were they shooting in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1735">A: What I'm trying to tell you is they had some kind --from what I know now, I didn't know then, there was a provocation, the underground, the Polish underground probably robbed or took a lot of food out of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trains</span> which went to the front.</sentence><sentence id="1736">So they brought some kind of punishment, a company of Ukrainian all kinds of real butchers and they started killing people on the <span class="DLF">street</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1737">I look out and the priest was even taken in chains.</sentence><sentence id="1738">I was looking out and I figured I'm going to run.</sentence><sentence id="1739">And I think I was running better than Tarzan and I ran, but the wheat was that high and in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span> they did not have big <span class="DLF">estates</span>, just small little parcels of <span class="REGION">land</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1740">So, in between there was one parcel of <span class="REGION">land</span> and the other, there was what they called in Polish , like little <span class="DLF">streets</span>, and they were having a guns machine guns down there.</sentence><sentence id="1741">Anything moves, boom.</sentence><sentence id="1742">I got in between and I want to tell you I was going and I figured this is the end, and I kind of ducked every minutes.</sentence><sentence id="1743">After they shot, I got through.</sentence><sentence id="1744">I finally got through and where do I go now.</sentence><sentence id="1745">I remind myself about that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Ghetto</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1746">I'm going to run there, and it was about a couple kilometers there.</sentence><sentence id="1747">I was running away in my shorts.</sentence><sentence id="1748">My whole body was full of blood from I was on my chest walking on my chest because I was afraid if I put my head up that was the end.</sentence><sentence id="1749">Well, I finally reached that <span class="NPIP">place</span> and they let me in.</sentence><sentence id="1750">The Jewish people were watching themselves too.</sentence><sentence id="1751">They didn't know yet, but they had an idea.</sentence><sentence id="1752">They heard all the shooting and I told them what happened.</sentence><sentence id="1753">I told them listen I'm Jewish let me into this group, and I told him about that man who used to hold my shoes down there.</sentence><sentence id="1754">Sure enough they went in there and he came in and took me into his <span class="BUILDING">house</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1755">It was very early.</sentence><sentence id="1756">I was a stranger.</sentence><sentence id="1757">Everybody was sleeping yet.</sentence><sentence id="1758">His wife, he woke up his wife to wash me up, because I was full of blood, and I was sitting figuring, what kind of life was that.</sentence><sentence id="1759">I was really disgusted.</sentence><sentence id="1760">I could have been killed a couple hours ago.</sentence><sentence id="1761">All of a sudden I seen the same German marching in on this <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1762">I was a stranger and sitting behind the <span class="DLF">door</span> and people were still sleeping behind every little <span class="BUILDING">house</span> seven Germans, SS men would stand there, their guns pulled out and one of them, all of a sudden I saw that this must be the end.</sentence><sentence id="1763">But I was behind the <span class="DLF">door</span>, a stranger, and they opened the <span class="DLF">door</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1764">They went to every <span class="BUILDING">home</span>, and all of a sudden one of them walks in and said all the men out.</sentence><sentence id="1765">I never knew that so many men were in one little <span class="BUILDING">house</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1766">This guy -- so I look out through that <span class="DLF">window</span>, through that opening, boom.</sentence><sentence id="1767">Everybody that walks out boom, got a bullet right in the back of the head.</sentence><sentence id="1768">At that moment, you wouldn't believe it, I saw myself dying there, and I saw a film in front me, all my life, I saw like a fast film, my life and I figured this is it there where I lay.</sentence><sentence id="1769">Now, I turned into glue, I tell you.</sentence><sentence id="1770">There was no escape.</sentence><sentence id="1771">One guy was <span class="NPIP">outside</span> chasing out and the rest of them were shooting, one by one, in every <span class="BUILDING">house</span> in front of them.</sentence><sentence id="1772">The German who was chasing out, took me by my back and pulled me and I didn't give a damn.</sentence><sentence id="1773">I didn't want to go.</sentence><sentence id="1774">I knew I'm going to be dead and I was half conscious.</sentence><sentence id="1775">So, there was one of them in the front a tall SS man.</sentence><sentence id="1776">I don't know what happened but he turns me around and says in German ,he'sa little boy.</sentence><sentence id="1777">go back.</sentence><sentence id="1778">He looked me in the eyes and go back.</sentence><sentence id="1779">I want to go back, but I'll never forget that guy who chased out everybody from the <span class="BUILDING">house</span>, a big German like this, and assessment aren't you killed yet?</sentence><sentence id="1780">I started begging 6 him.</sentence><sentence id="1781">He didn't shoot <span class="NPIP">inside</span>, he was holding the gun like that, but the women all of a sudden they saw what was happening they tore me out of his hand.</sentence><sentence id="1782">The women, because they -- they killed some women, I found out later, those who resisted killing their husbands or their sons.</sentence><sentence id="1783">Somehow there was scattering all those Germans so this German let them tear me out and he went <span class="NPIP">outside</span> to shoot others and they told me in this little <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>, the next <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>, the Germans were not there.</sentence><sentence id="1784">They tore off the <span class="DLF">door</span> and I go in there.</sentence><sentence id="1785">There was a lady there who started crying.</sentence><sentence id="1786">To the other women you brought us an angle of death to me, that I am going to spoil it for them.</sentence><sentence id="1787">And they had a a little <span class="INT_SPACE">basement</span> and one side was a <span class="INT_SPACE">bath</span> the other <span class="NPIP">side</span> and a <span class="INT_SPACE">basement</span> about three by three.</sentence><sentence id="1788">They must have been hiding food or something because it wasn't very deep and the old man, the woman's husband was shaking he was afraid to go down.</sentence><sentence id="1789">He was an old man.</sentence><sentence id="1790">And I got the idea if he go down I'll go down with him.</sentence><sentence id="1791">There was no escape.</sentence><sentence id="1792">These two girls, one that mentioned, the two girls one of them didn't let me in and the other one said let him in.</sentence><sentence id="1793">Finally they pushed the father in because the SS, the Germans were running around looking for men to shoot.</sentence><sentence id="1794">They got him, but the elder sister didn't let me in, so I kind of got in, the girl pushed her away.</sentence><sentence id="1795">I got in with my head down and my feet up.</sentence><sentence id="1796">There wasn't enough <span class="INT_SPACE">space</span> and I held the old man like this.</sentence><sentence id="1797">When they saw the Germans approaching, they closed it, closed it very fast.</sentence><sentence id="1798">They went and the Jewish people did resist at that time.</sentence><sentence id="1799">They were looking around.</sentence><sentence id="1800">I think they were scared themselves too.</sentence><sentence id="1801">They were shooting in one <span class="INT_SPACE">bath</span> if someone is not there, then the other <span class="INT_SPACE">bath</span>, and I laid between and the little girl said I want to go with my Grandpa to that little <span class="INT_SPACE">basement</span> and then I passed out.</sentence><sentence id="1802">I honestly don't remember having any conscious.</sentence><sentence id="1803">I don't remember until about four hours later, these two girls with another woman they pulled me up.</sentence><sentence id="1804">They pulled up their father.</sentence><sentence id="1805">The people were killed already.</sentence><sentence id="1806">I could hardly regain my consciousness because my head was whirling.</sentence><sentence id="1807">I didn't know whether I was still alive or I'm dead.</sentence><sentence id="1808">They pulled me out and there was a heap of dead people, like 120.</sentence><sentence id="1809">They pushed me in between and I took some and I bloodied myself to make sure that the women had to go, they disappeared, most the SS went away.</sentence><sentence id="1810">They did their job, cruelly.</sentence><sentence id="1811">I was laying between the dead and a couple of old local Germans were to write down how many.</sentence><sentence id="1812">They pushed me up, I pretended I was dead.</sentence><sentence id="1813">I was waiting.</sentence><sentence id="1814">They took the women to dig a big <span class="DLF">ditch</span> for their husband and they put all kinds of lime in there.</sentence><sentence id="1815">That's what i heard.</sentence><sentence id="1816">Then the women came back and they put us out.</sentence><sentence id="1817">I was almost night, and they put us on a big horse and <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">buggy</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1818">All the dead, I pretended I was dead too.</sentence><sentence id="1819">They left a couple of Jewish policeman or ordinals, they left them alive, they helped pull it up.</sentence><sentence id="1820">One of them squeezed me.</sentence><sentence id="1821">I knew that he knew that I was alive.</sentence><sentence id="1822">When we went somewhere I remember because after the war I went to take a look down there.</sentence><sentence id="1823">I was only about 100 meters from the big <span class="DLF">ditch</span>, and we made a turn after I decided to jump off.</sentence><sentence id="1824">I don't think anybody did any shooting.</sentence><sentence id="1825">Nobody did any shooting.</sentence><sentence id="1826">I ran.</sentence><sentence id="1827">I didn't know where I'm going.</sentence><sentence id="1828">My head was whirling.</sentence><sentence id="1829">All night I was running like a dead person.</sentence><sentence id="1830">I didn't know where I was going and what's going to happen.</sentence><sentence id="1831">Until I finally saw a little man and I told him that I worked for this guy and this guy in this <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> where I worked for the baker, so they gave me some clothes and they washed me, another farmer.</sentence><sentence id="1832">That's how I survived this massacre.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1934">Q: What was the name of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> where the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Ghetto</span> was?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1936">A: It's called <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Garbutka</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1938">Q: Did you have any sense when this was?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1940">A: It was somewhere around either July or August 1942.</sentence><sentence id="1941">At that time, we heard, because I related that that they were killing older Jews, or killing all the Jews in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1942">That's how I remember that.</sentence><sentence id="1943">Anyhow, that's was the event, and that's why I told you off camera about this girl, that woman who saved me is in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Montreal</span> today, and I recognized it two years ago in <span class="COUNTRY">Italy</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1948">Q: The woman in the <span class="INT_SPACE">basement</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1950">A: The woman who helped me get into the <span class="INT_SPACE">basement</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1951">She had another sister who did not want me to get in there because they wanted to save their father.</sentence><sentence id="1952">Anyhow I got out of this mayhem and I went to work for another -- I think it was again a smaller little farmer.</sentence><sentence id="1953">I was afraid to go back.</sentence><sentence id="1954">Eventually I went back to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>, but what happened is I ran into another small little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> and they took me to a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1955">This was some kind of a camp for Poles.</sentence><sentence id="1956">There was some Jews too.</sentence><sentence id="1957">Not far was called . [</sentence><sentence id="1958">think I was working there only two weeks.</sentence><sentence id="1959">Also, they surrounded the people but supervision was done by Russian P.O.W.s and they were working on -- they were crushing stone to make some kind of a -- to go through some kind of a <span class="DLF">street</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1960">My job was -- again I was a little boy so they put me on a little <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">lorry</span> to hold the two -- to kind of brake and somehow I forgot my way and instead of braking I pulled the thing and naturally the guy, the foreman, he was German, started jumping and threatening me, and hitting me and bleeding me.</sentence><sentence id="1961">He says I'll take care of you tonight.</sentence><sentence id="1962">I want to tell you, an hour later I said Ihave to go to the <span class="INT_SPACE">bathroom</span>, bloody, and I kept on walking and I escaped.</sentence><sentence id="1963">That was a little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span> I wasn't long there, a couple of weeks.</sentence><sentence id="1964">Then I remember another event when I was in that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> and there I really literally found out about the holocaust.</sentence><sentence id="1965">We were taken to work down there near a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>, and every week a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> would come from <span class="COUNTRY">Holland</span> enclosed <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">wagons</span>, they had some wires across and there was a bag for water, and all the boys, including me, we were running to get some water, because these people I knew they were Jewish people.</sentence><sentence id="1966">They were screaming in Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="1967">They couldn't talk Polish, half German, but they were from <span class="COUNTRY">Holland</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1968">And they threw gold and money and give you water.</sentence><sentence id="1969">My heart was just the same thing.</sentence><sentence id="1970">I was crying to myself.</sentence><sentence id="1971">What the heck is going on, and I knew which direction they were going already.</sentence><sentence id="1972">The whole families and they were crying and looking through the thing.</sentence><sentence id="1973">Of course I didn't care about the money but some of the kids cared about the money.</sentence><sentence id="1974">I didn't want to be different.</sentence><sentence id="1975">I picked up too.</sentence><sentence id="1976">This was going on for a few weeks.</sentence><sentence id="1977">Every Thursday a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> would come and I was waiting with water and other boys were waiting with water too, for money, some of them I felt very sorry for those people.</sentence><sentence id="1978">One day, a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> comes and I waited.</sentence><sentence id="1979">This was just an event I must tell you.</sentence><sentence id="1980">I'm holding a bucket of water and a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> comes but not that kind of a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>, opened, and German police not SS, but police were talking to these people, stop 8 the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1981">They always had to stop.</sentence><sentence id="1982">I don't know whether they had to fill up with water, the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">locomotive</span>, so it stopped and I looked in.</sentence><sentence id="1983">Believe me I hold the bucket of water for I thought first class, all Germans and they talked to each other.</sentence><sentence id="1984">I was smart enough to know which is an SS man, which is a policeman.</sentence><sentence id="1985">I had a kind of education over the years.</sentence><sentence id="1986">So, I was educated in this respect, so I go ahead and I take a look at it.</sentence><sentence id="1987">I hide my water and take a look what's going on and I look in there.</sentence><sentence id="1988">They were wearing medals.</sentence><sentence id="1989">There were beautiful people, , So a German, I hesitated, he's going to get like everybody ten marks get in there and bring him the water.</sentence><sentence id="1990">I took the water out and I started giving they had like little <span class="INT_SPACE">cubicles</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1991">I walked over to one man and he was religious, religious Jews were they called it, and I recognized that he's Jewish and all of a sudden I look at the rest of the people and all of a sudden I knew they were Jewish, because the guy who was the head, a little guy next to him, he asked me in German , So I told me slowly , Means a <span class="NPIP">killing place</span> in German.</sentence><sentence id="1992">So, I kind of mentioned him.</sentence><sentence id="1993">But I was very scared saying it when they said , [just jumped off the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> with my empty bucket.</sentence><sentence id="1994">I spilled the water and I ran as far as I could.</sentence><sentence id="1995">I know my heart was crying because I knew in a couple two or three hours nothing will be out of them.</sentence><sentence id="1996">They must have been VIPs from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Vienna</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1997">Some of them had medals.</sentence><sentence id="1998">In other words some of them must have been soldiers in the Austrian army.</sentence><sentence id="1999">This was the last time I went through to the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trains</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2000">I was really afraid.</sentence><sentence id="2001">But when I found out at this time really about the Holocaust.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2054">Q: How did you or anybody else know where these <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trains</span> were going?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2056">A: Where I'm going?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2058">Q: No, how did you know where these <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trains</span> were heading?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2060">A: I told you the first time I found out the truth the baker, he told me that in this direction, goes down there to a <span class="NPIP">place</span> called and from there it goes down to and they knew.</sentence><sentence id="2061">The local population knew.</sentence><sentence id="2062">They were witnessing it.</sentence><sentence id="2063">I don't think they were happy the Polish people regardless of their feeling.</sentence><sentence id="2064">They still knew that human beings are being burned alive.</sentence><sentence id="2065">I saw in the eyes of my baker, catholic, I saw he was very angry.</sentence><sentence id="2066">He said one day they are going to pay for that crime.</sentence><sentence id="2067">I couldn't say I was Jewish, but my heart and everything in me was whirling.</sentence><sentence id="2068">I really didn't believe it.</sentence><sentence id="2069">But slowly after the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trains</span>, and also there were runaways.</sentence><sentence id="2070">Jews were hiding.</sentence><sentence id="2071">Those who jumped out of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trains</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2072">I can't go into in this interview all of the particulars, but there were incidents -- there were incidents where I saw Russian escapes.</sentence><sentence id="2073">I gave them bread, anything we had because somehow they were begging for food because they escaped and most of them were caught anyhow.</sentence><sentence id="2074">But the Russians were really, really treated bad by that time, the Russian POWs.</sentence><sentence id="2075">They used tell me some of them.</sentence><sentence id="2076">I worked in the <span class="DLF">fields</span> and they would somehow run through those <span class="DLF">fields</span> and ask me if I could bring in a piece of bread.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2095">Q: Was there any effort by the Polish people to sabotage this?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2099">A: From what I knew, do you mean sabotage the Jewish problem or sabotage against the Germans?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2101">Q: Against the Germans?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2103">A: There was quite a bit, | want you to know.</sentence><sentence id="2104">From what I know and from what I observed the Polish people were very patriotic, and they hated the Germans regardless and let me tell you the Germans, the SS, they did not treat the Poles nicely, not even nicely.</sentence><sentence id="2105">They were killing them off quite a bit.</sentence><sentence id="2106">They were killing them off.</sentence><sentence id="2107">And they had their underground, which was run through <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">London</span> and some of them, most of them in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> by us were hiding and we were hiding all kinds of guns and ammunition and I used to be chased out sometimes in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> to find out what time the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> goes to <span class="COUNTRY">Russia</span> to the front, because sometimes this underground would jump on one of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trains</span>, but on the edge of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> and steal whatever they could, food, ammunition.</sentence><sentence id="2108">So, the Poles, they were putting up a hell of a resistance.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2115">Q: Were you aware of any specific incidents?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2117">A: Where they put on a resistance.</sentence><sentence id="2118">Not a specific but I knew and I saw because the people I worked for, they were really engaged in that underground activity.</sentence><sentence id="2119">I wasn't on a specific did anything specifically because I was young.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2123">Q: How long did you go from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> hiding out as a catholic boy?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2125">A: You want to know how much time.</sentence><sentence id="2126">I was even late before, I was after that I worked in a <span class="BUILDING">gun powder factory</span>, and also they had a lot of Jewish people down there working for those good chemists.</sentence><sentence id="2127">They got together all those people who they didn't liquidate if they asked look what did you do, if he was a good chemist of physicist they needed for armaments so these people worked in a big <span class="BUILDING">factory</span> down there, and I happened to go in to them, to the Jewish people.</sentence><sentence id="2128">Then I stayed with them a few months and then I escaped back to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">villages</span>, but to answer you how many -- what did you ask me again?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2133">Q: Were you in hiding essentially for the rest of the war of how long?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2135">A: Hiding through the rest of the war is the answer.</sentence><sentence id="2136">I was never free.</sentence><sentence id="2137">I either was <span class="NPIP">inside</span>, <span class="BUILDING">jail</span> was <span class="NPIP">inside</span> or I was hiding <span class="NPIP">outside</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2138">I was not hiding because I had to hide, I was hiding because I was scared.</sentence><sentence id="2139">Just about I would say a year before the end of the year, the Polish resistance was very great, and I was scared at that time they grabbed all youth I was scared they were going to recognize me, so I escaped from there.</sentence><sentence id="2140">I went back to where the <span class="BUILDING">factory</span> was, not far, and I was hiding personally because there was another problem.</sentence><sentence id="2141">Amy boy whether they were Jewish or not Jewish, any boy was either arrested to kill because the Poles had an uprising in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> and the people they I would say the Polish army was gathering to go help the people in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2142">I was afraid that they were 0 going to -- I was with them really, it was called at that time 5a Polish Army, but I didn't want to go to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> and I was afraid they were really mobiling young kids to go to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2143">However, I escaped.</sentence><sentence id="2144">I was more afraid that they were going to recognize me that I'm not Jewish, because being in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> somehow I knew the people, but strangers, groups, underground there were all kinds of people and some of them were they were very good and recognizing Jews, I want you to know.</sentence><sentence id="2145">So, I escaped the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span> and then I was hiding wherever I could.</sentence><sentence id="2146">But his was the real way I was saved.</sentence><sentence id="2147">I was hiding in the haystack and all of a sudden I see two guys.</sentence><sentence id="2148">I was with another fellow.</sentence><sentence id="2149">Not to be killed the Germans were after him.</sentence><sentence id="2150">Germans SS, Gestapo, they had all kinds of you know, people who were looking to kill us.</sentence><sentence id="2151">So, I was hiding and all of a sudden I seen two guys whom I recognized they worked in the <span class="BUILDING">gun powder factory</span> and they escaped from there.</sentence><sentence id="2152">One guy knew the <span class="REGION">area</span> very well.</sentence><sentence id="2153">He's the one who practically saved me.</sentence><sentence id="2154">He's in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Toronto</span> now.</sentence><sentence id="2155">I was just with him in .</sentence><sentence id="2156">His name is Silverman He knew the <span class="REGION">area</span> and we tried to get across the <span class="DLF">lines</span>, the <span class="DLF">lines</span> meaning the Russians were advancing.</sentence><sentence id="2157">We were on the other <span class="NPIP">side</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2158">The artillery was just unbearable from the <span class="REGION">Russian side</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2159">We tried to get through the to go to the <span class="REGION">Russian side</span>, but it was impossible.</sentence><sentence id="2160">There were virtually hordes of German army which they retreated to this other side of the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">water</span> so we couldn't.</sentence><sentence id="2161">They had another <span class="DLF">line</span> which they were preparing in case they had to retreat.</sentence><sentence id="2162">So, we were between the first <span class="DLF">line</span> and the <span class="DLF">second line</span> of the German defense.</sentence><sentence id="2163">It was horrible.</sentence><sentence id="2164">It was bad.</sentence><sentence id="2165">I used to inside I did not look Jewish, I used to go out and somehow organize bread and water and we made <span class="INT_SPACE">bunkers</span>, deep <span class="INT_SPACE">bunkers</span>, winter, deep <span class="INT_SPACE">bunkers</span> and we begged, we got some food.</sentence><sentence id="2166">We were hungry all the time and that's how until the Army came across.</sentence><sentence id="2167">It's a little harder for me, but it didn't take long.</sentence><sentence id="2168">It was very hard because the German army with their dogs and all that they were retreating and they at that point they didn't especially care who they killed.</sentence><sentence id="2169">If we were in their way between both <span class="DLF">lines</span> and that's how eventually I survived.</sentence><sentence id="2170">I think it's enough for me now.</sentence><sentence id="2171">I'm getting tired.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2209">Q: Can I just ask you a couple general questions.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2211">A: There's still a lot more for me to say, but it's very hard for me to go on.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2213">Q: Did you go back to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> then?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2215">A: Why certainly.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2217">Q: I wanted to ask you if you saw the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>, the Ghetto burning?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2219">A: The <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Ghetto</span>, no, but I saw <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2220">I was aware of the burning and I was aware that there was a Jewish uprising because it was full.</sentence><sentence id="2221">Everybody was talking about it in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">villages</span> and the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">cities</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2222">I came back down to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> and <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> was completely destroyed because after the Jewish uprising, after the Jewish uprising, then there was a Polish uprising before the Soviet Army came in, and they killed quite a bit of Poles, a couple of hundred thousands.</sentence><sentence id="2223">They guarded themselves pretty good, but the Germans 1 were overwhelming with <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">tanks</span> and everything.</sentence><sentence id="2224">When I came back, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span> was burned to the ground.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2231">Q: You were liberated by the Russian army, when was that?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="2233">A I didn't see the Russians, but that was about the time somewhere in 1945.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2235">Q: Did you in the time you were hiding, did you feel terribly isolated that you knew you had to be safe that you had to be a catholic boy, but you knew that you're people were somewhere else.</sentence><sentence id="2236">Was that a strange feeling?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2239">A: Well, number one it was I wasn't too smart to think about those things.</sentence><sentence id="2240">I was trying to save myself.</sentence><sentence id="2241">I knew that I'd never see my brothers and sisters.</sentence><sentence id="2242">That I knew, yet the will to live and to one day survive and like now to tell people, it was a certain thought of it and I was lucky.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2247">Q: How did you feel about being Jewish at the time?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2249">A: Well, let me tell you, I went to <span class="BUILDING">church</span> for quite a while, but whenever I could avoid, could avoid.</sentence><sentence id="2250">I never heard because the <span class="BUILDING">church</span> never teaches anything harsh against Jews.</sentence><sentence id="2251">I just felt strange amongst it because I was brought up in a Jewish religion, so I let it go by what the priests say with a grain.</sentence><sentence id="2252">Let it go, okay, some of it I absorbed and some of it I forgot and that's it.</sentence><sentence id="2253">But I felt Jewish --not that I felt Jewish, I felt very scared every time I went from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> and maybe they could recognize me.</sentence><sentence id="2254">I felt Jewish, all right.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2261">Q: You didn't resent being Jewish?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2263">A: I was resenting a lot of times.</sentence><sentence id="2264">There were times when they took kids, in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">villages</span>, they took them to <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span> and I was very scared because I was circumcised and I thought that whenever they had something like that surround and take the kids to <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span> from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">villages</span>, I was hiding and very fast because they used to say they take them a certain <span class="NPIP">place</span> and because the Germans wanted only healthy people, so somewhere near they would take them to quarantine and checked whether they don't have any t.b.</sentence><sentence id="2265">They wanted healthy people.</sentence><sentence id="2266">So I was afraid if 1 was going to undress before doctors, they'll recognize that I was Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="2267">So, I was very sure, at the risk of my life to escape those situations where they couldn't catch me to <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2268">Funny thing, sometimes I figured I could have gone because one of my neighbor boy was caught then he escaped from <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span> he told me didn't have anything like that.</sentence><sentence id="2269">They took us straight in there.</sentence><sentence id="2270">It would have been easier for me if I would have gone.</sentence><sentence id="2271">I was aware that I was circumcised.</sentence><sentence id="2272">Every moment of the day, it hit me.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2285">Q: After the war, were you eager to be Jewish again?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2289">A: Let me tell you, during the war, I really thought that God as a German.</sentence><sentence id="2290">| thought they'll never be defeated, the kind of cruelties, the way they were.</sentence><sentence id="2291">I would say the SS and all the Gestapo and all the apparatus.</sentence><sentence id="2292">I will tell you, you would never they were barbarians.</sentence><sentence id="2293">They were not human beings, these people who were running <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span> at that time.</sentence><sentence id="2294">The SS, the Gestapo, and all kinds of other names they had.</sentence><sentence id="2295">I knew how strong they were.</sentence><sentence id="2296">To say that I was glad to be Jewish, I want to tell you something, and this is the truth, I was just mad a my God, first of all mad at my father that he made me a Jew, and mad at my God that we had to suffer so much, what for.</sentence><sentence id="2297">That was my first feeling.</sentence><sentence id="2298">A lot of time I talked to God.</sentence><sentence id="2299">When you get desperate you start talking to something.</sentence><sentence id="2300">You've got nothing.</sentence><sentence id="2301">I would just put my eyes up and I asked why, why wasn't I born a dog, a bird who could jump over the <span class="DLF">Ghetto walls</span> or a catholic.</sentence><sentence id="2302">Why was I Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="2303">And there were times when I was really thinking that it's not good for me to be a Jew, if I ever live and if I have children, I said to myself, I would never let them be circumcised because this is just showing the enemy that you're not the same.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2319">Q: After the war?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2321">A: Well, when I went to <span class="COUNTRY">America</span>, of course, in <span class="COUNTRY">American</span> I found out that I would not circumcise my kids if it wouldn't be that they said in <span class="COUNTRY">America</span> they are circumcising everybody.</sentence><sentence id="2322">I was Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="2323">I got married and my in-laws they were Jewish too, and I let them circumcise my two sons.</sentence><sentence id="2324">If I were to live in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span>, in Europe, I would never let my kids by circumcise, in fact I would even try to be a non-Jew, because what for?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2329">Q: I guess did it take you a while to readjust to being a Jew again after the war?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2331">A: Believe me, I knew I was Jewish, because there was some persecution in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span> too, after the war.</sentence><sentence id="2332">And some of them came back from <span class="COUNTRY">Russia</span> or those who survived never made it even amongst the Polish people.</sentence><sentence id="2333">There were some Poles who were not happy yet with Jews surviving.</sentence><sentence id="2334">I wouldn't say some, majority were just people.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2339">Q: You're tired aren't you.</sentence><sentence id="2340">Do you want to stop?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2343">A: Yes.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2345">Q: After you were liberated, where did you go?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2347">A: Eventually a year later I escaped from <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span> and made my way to <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2349">Q: Right afterward did you go back to your <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> to see if you knew anybody?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2351">A: Definitely I went back.</sentence><sentence id="2352">I was looking.</sentence><sentence id="2353">I was trying to find out if anybody's is alive.</sentence><sentence id="2354">I know they're not, but maybe, of course, I was trying.</sentence><sentence id="2355">I went from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span> and I even put my name in on certain <span class="REGION">areas</span> because I was afraid I was taken into the ARmy.</sentence><sentence id="2356">| 3 was afraid that somehow my sister by the writing on the <span class="DLF">wall</span> knew that I'm alive.</sentence><sentence id="2357">She came back from <span class="REGION">Siberia</span>, from <span class="COUNTRY">Russia</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2365">Q: You're sister is the only surviving?</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2367">A: Yes.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2369">Q: Is there anything else you think should be recorded about this whole experience.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2371">A: To record I could just tell you one thing.</sentence><sentence id="2372">The worst for me was the Ghetto <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2373">It was worse than <span class="NPIP">hell</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2374">You couldn't imagine -- <span class="NPIP">hell</span> was worse.</sentence><sentence id="2375">I can't imagine that the people could be surrounded, not fed, children my age and worse was smaller children, were just laying in the <span class="DLF">street</span> begging for food, dying and no body even paid attention.</sentence><sentence id="2376">They just picked them up in groups, on <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">lorries</span> and they you know when I look I wonder right now, always my heart goes out for them.</sentence><sentence id="2377">Because what I saw over there, I saw the real stuff, I can relate that to what's happening.</sentence><sentence id="2378">But the worst was the older people, the epidemic of typhus.</sentence><sentence id="2379">I want you to know I had typhus at certain time, we skipped.</sentence><sentence id="2380">I had typhus too, but it was <span class="NPIP">hell on earth</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2381">The worst was <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghetto</span>, was <span class="NPIP">hell on earth</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2382">To give you an example, I want to say something.</sentence><sentence id="2383">After the war I always looked in the eyes of German women.</sentence><sentence id="2384">Why.</sentence><sentence id="2385">You'll ask me because I saw one girl, one woman, I'm going to relate it to an incident.</sentence><sentence id="2386">I know already hungry kids, we knew which are good Germans, w which are bad Germans, who's going photograph us and they used to come into the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghetto</span>, like tourist, show how Jewish people are dirty, how they live in poverty, how they just are a heap of people who wouldn't be so bad to kill.</sentence><sentence id="2387">That was their real idea.</sentence><sentence id="2388">One day like a little <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> opened in small little like a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">pickup</span> and I looked at it from far.</sentence><sentence id="2389">Everytime a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">German pickup</span> like this came into the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghetto</span>, everybody ran because you never know when they're going to catch up, but I was a little from far I could recognize these were airmen.</sentence><sentence id="2390">They were airmen so I figured I'll wait and I'll beg for bread.</sentence><sentence id="2391">I wait up there and they stopped and they want to make pictures.</sentence><sentence id="2392">I thought very good come a little close.</sentence><sentence id="2393">So, I said they can't photograph me unless they throw me a piece of bread.</sentence><sentence id="2394">So one girl came a little close and she grabbed me and hit me right between the eyes.</sentence><sentence id="2395">A girl, must have been a husband or boyfriend, a German soldier, says "Now tell me why did you do that.</sentence><sentence id="2396">He's just a little boy," to that woman, and I'll never forget her.</sentence><sentence id="2397">After the war I was looking in the eyes of every German girl and I couldn't understand why a German woman, maybe she was 18, 19 you know something like this, why she would do it to me and I didn't get any bread and I wouldn't take any bread because to me shame was worse than hunger.</sentence><sentence id="2398">Then they went on, but she really gave it to me.</sentence><sentence id="2399">What got into those people.</sentence><sentence id="2400">What kind of people were they?</sentence><sentence id="2401">Either they were barbarians or they were just got out of the <span class="INT_SPACE">caves</span> and to go ahead and hate, make us miserable, and on the contrary they tried to I would say prosper on our misery.</sentence><sentence id="2402">They brought in people to show our people are dirty people, loused, not really prepared I would say prepare the stage where they could kill us because we are not worthy living and they are the ones who really brought this up because slowly they weakened everybody in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Ghetto</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2403">No food, dirty water, no hygienic anything which we could be 4 clean nothing but sickness, people dying on the <span class="DLF">street</span>, they weakened us and they made us like no humans and it's very hard for the majority of people to even resist however a lot of older people remember the Germans where they were good people from the first World War or they lived with them in <span class="COUNTRY">Poland</span> and they couldn't understand, they would not believe that they could do it to us.</sentence><sentence id="2404">They didn't believe that the German would eventually kill all of them.</sentence><sentence id="2405">They couldn't imagine, however, by slowly depriving the people of everything taking away all their privileges, taking away their education, making them look like raggedy people they prepared, they were preparing they figured that these people are unworthy to life, and it was their fault, because scientifically I'm sure they did it all scientifically to get rid of the Jewish people.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2441">Q: Thank you.</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2443">A: You're welcome.</sentence><sentence id="2444">Conclusion of Interview</sentence></p></dialogue> |
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