Talk:Religious antisemitism

message: The article refers to "non-Judaizing Christians of Hebrew stock".  What are these? Jayjg (talk) 10:22, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "non-Judaizing Christians of Hebrew stock" 

message: The article asserts that Jewish Christians supported Jews until Akiva declared Bar Kochba the messiah.  What support is there for this claim?  Akiva's claim was hardly universally accepted to begin with, and was dropped immediately following Bar Kochba's death.  Also, didn't the real break happen after the First Jewish revolt and desctruction of the Temple in 70-73CE? Jayjg (talk) 10:24, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Break occured after Akiva declared Bar Kochba the Messiah 

message: I deleted this from the article "including Jewish Christians (also called Judaizers), non-Judaizing Christians of Hebrew stock, and Gentile converts ..." because I don't know who these groups were, particularly "non-Judaizing Christians of Hebrew stock". Pintele Yid 08:21, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Bizarre, and rather sad story in that vein... My advisor is a Chinese guy from Singapore...  From the day I started back at school he hasn't ceased to talk to me about how amazed he is by Tzahal...all about how advisors from tzahal trained the Singaporean army, etc. ...  We've been on good terms since the day in my first class in the program, about 3 lectures into the semester, when he said that doing something "just isn't kosher", and then basically freaked out that I might think he'd said something wrong... funny thing was, he used the word "kosher" completely properly in English, and in such a way that there was no way to find fault with it even if the entire statement had been made in Hebrew...albeit with "kasher"...  Anyways, he made some comment about a year ago that struck me as just a little bit odd, about how Jews are Jews whereëver they go, so I sent him the link to Kaifeng Jews, and he never said anything about it to me.  Then last week, he said something similar about how Jews are Jews, but there aren't any Chinese Jews.  So I sent him a couple of links to amishav about some of the remnants of the Kaifeng community reclaiming their Jewishness.  So today I went to talk to him about making up the midterm I missed during 8 Atzereth, and he showed very little interest in discussing it, instead the conversation somehow turned to the email I'd sent him, and he was astonished that there could be Chinese Jews...since you had to have "Jewish blood" to be Jewish.  He was flabergast that there was such a thing as conversion to Judaism, and even moreso by my assertion that "yes" he could convert to Judaism if he really wanted to.  Gawd.  What are we doing so horribly wrong about being a light le`olam that they don't even know that they can convert?!  Tomer TALK 12:05, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Query

message: IMHO, the intro needs to be carefully rewritten because in the current form it is very confusing and may be misconstrued in the sense that hostility to Jews on religious grounds is merely anti-Judaism. Reputable references would help. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 10:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see if this intro works. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 11:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to work on it a bit. Jayjg (talk) 17:21, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's much better now. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 20:28, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: Having read the page on "criticism of Islam", which pretty much offers all the arguments on why Islam is an evil and false religion, I believe that this page which is its equivalent should justly offer a similar content and not only offer a history of hostility towards jews.  I noticed that in the page on criticism of Islam, it is claimed that Islam is clearly a moral regression from the Jewish and Christian traditions. It would be easy to find theological aswell as moral criticism of judaism, including God commanding the Jewish people to commit Genocide and mass murder of women and children. (Torah:(I Samuel 15).http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter3-21a.html It is unfair and distasteful to judge entire religious communities both Jewish, Muslim and Christians especially in the times we live in. We must especially not target Islam from the position of a supposedly superior "Judeo-Christian" tradition which, in my opinion, does not exist.--Burgas00 13:23, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is criticism of Judaism.So why the complain.132.72.71.149 13:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism of Islam and Judaism

message: Futhermore: Shouldn't this page be merged with Criticism of Judaism?--Greasysteve13 09:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How is the term a "[[euphemism]]"? like this article says in the first paragraph. 

message: I have removed the following from the WP:LEAD:
:The definition of "antisemitism" in Merriam-Webster Dictionary patently includes anti-Judaism: "is hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group."Merriam-Webster Dictionary: Anti-Semitism According to this definition anti-Judaism is a specific form of anti-Semitism.
This is argumentative OR and not suitable for the article, let alone the lead paras.  JEREMY 12:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: OR removed

message: Please make your case for merger.  Otherwise tag will be deleted. --Doright 06:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are we discussing merging Criticism of Judaism into this article? If so, I vote yes. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Last I check there were proposal going both ways, but no discussion.  I think merging anti-Jud into Criticism is a very bad idea.  I'm not even sure merging Criticism into anti is a good idea, because  "Criticism" and "anti" seem to be unique concepts.--Doright 06:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger Proposal?

message: Since the merge seems to be a possible solution, I am proposing it. Please let's discuss at Talk:Antisemitism. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ну? 22:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: People there suggested moving it to Religious antisemitism,  so I've done that. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  merge to Antisemitism 

message: Not sure how Taxico was quote mining. The person being quoted in the lead provides a good summary of the other sections of the article. -- Kendrick7talk 05:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The lead can't consist of one source's idiosyncratic view. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  quote mining? 

message: After reading the article, I'm not clear (and so didn't want to respond to the RfC).  By "religious anti-semitism," does this article mean "anti-semitism motiviated by religion" (say, as I understand it, the views of the Nation of Islam); or does this article mean "views that oppose Jewish religion" (which is how I have understood the term "anti-judaism").  I have a hard time figuring out which the article is about.  I could just be dense.  A little help?  -- Pastordavid 18:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Clear 

message: Please fix the links. When a search is doen for anti-judaism it routs to this article and when people write anti-Judaism they are transferred to another article. We need to decide what gets merged with what and soon because people are getting conflicting messages. Guy Montag 19:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a good point.  If there is a separate article for anti-Judaism, either the meanings of the two terms need to be distinguished (as .V. argues), or the two articles should be merged.  The one thing that makes no sense is to say that the terms are interchangeable and yet maintain two separate articles. PubliusFL 20:39, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, interesting. That's rather confusing that the redirects would be set up that way. .V. (talk) 01:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Linking messed up

message: Excuse me for asking perhaps a dumb question, but shouldn't there be some statement at the end of that section (for example) that states that there is no known factual basis for this allegation? What am I missing? Crum375 21:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blood libel question 

message: This article needs a section on islamic antisemitism. --Sefringle 02:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It shiffers me a little that when I say that there can't exist a God with a "chosen people" I am charaterized as a antisemit Limboot 14:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where have you been characterized as such in wiki? -- Avi 15:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because here we speak about "religious antisemitism". Classified this article as "criminalizacion" of people who have critics on judaism religion, just like people who have critism on israeli gouvernment are often criminalized as "antisemitists" Limboot 15:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: this article

message: I have nominated a mege because I don't see a difference between the tow topics. Antisemitism and anti-Judaism are the same thing.--Sefringle 05:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look above on the talk page, there are a dozen or so authors discussing the difference in their estimation.  I think you're right that there is a strong connection, and even that many authors discuss them as the same thing.  The various sources also show a lot of authors (primarily Christian) who discuss the one (Anti-Judaism) as not the equivalent, but rather a cause of the other (Religious Antisemitism), however. The other problem is that Anti-Judaism actually seems to be a much more prominent phrase, which would cause problems in choosing the title.  I think this is why the articles are kept separately, based on previous discussions.  Mackan79 05:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: merge

message: There is much evidence that Jews were considered a "race" from the start of Chrstian times. Evidence is found in St. Augustine, St. Isidore of Seville, Peter the Venerable, St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, and institutionalized in the Church long before Poliakov's "Spain of the Inquisition."
“Not only did institutionalized racism begin in 15th-century Spain (the Inquisition ran from the late 15th through the early 19th centuries), but I would argue that a Christian racism can be detected as early as the 4th century in Sts. Augustine and John Chrysostom. Moreover, is not the belief in inherent and inherited traits what characterizes 19th-century racism as well, the same emphasis on evil vs good blood occurs among the Spanish, and is implied in Luther, as well as 19th-century writers.” Ref:: Michael. racial antisemitism vs mala sangre. Apr 1997
Scholars describe the evidence of Martin Luther's Jew hatred in his early works like his Spalatin Letters.  But more importantly, his 1543 work, On the Jews and their Lies, asks, "What then shall we do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?." 
"Luther wrote of the Jews as if they were a race that could not truly convert to Christianity.  Indeed, like so many Christian writers before him, Luther, by making the Jews the devil's people, put them beyond conversion". Michael noted that in a sermon of September 25 1539, "Luther tried to demonstrate through several examples that individual Jews could not convert permanently, and in several passages of The Jews and Their Lies, Luther appeared to reject the possibility that the Jews would or could convert."Michael, Robert, "Christian racism, part 2", H-Net Discussions Networks, 2 Mar 2000.
Trying to convert the Jews, he argued, was like "trying to cast out the devil . . .."  "They have failed to learn any lesson from the terrible distress that has been theirs for over fourteen hundred years in exile. . . . If these blows do not help, it is reasonable to assume that our talking and explaining will help even less. . . . Much less do I propose to convert the Jews, for that is impossible."  In a sermon of 25 September 1539, Luther tried to demonstrate through several examples that individual Jews could not convert permanently, and in several passages of The Jews and Their Lies, Luther appeared to reject the possibility that the Jews would or could convert.” 
-Doright 19:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hatred of Jewish "Race" and When Did it Start 

message: In On the Jews and Their Lies,Martin Luther repeatedly attacks Jewish race. Luther states:
"There, Jew, you have your boast, and we Gentiles have ours together with you, as well as you with us. Now go ahead and pray that God might respect your nobility, your race, your flesh and blood."Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
"Therefore it is not a clever and ingenious, but a clumsy, foolish, and stupid lie when the Jews boast of their circumcision before God, presuming that God should regard them graciously for that reason, though they should certainly know from Scripture that they are not the only race circumcised in compliance with God's decree, and that they cannot on that account be God's special people."Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
"There is one thing about which they boast and pride them selves beyond measure, and that is their descent from the foremost people on earth, from Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob, and from the twelve patriarchs, and thus from the holy people of Israel. St. Paul himself admits this when he says in Romans 9:5 Quorum patres, that is, 'To them belong the patriarchs, and of their race is the Christ,' etc."On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Luther, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
"Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, 'He has a demon' (Matthew 11:18) Our Lord also calls them a 'brood of vipers'; furthermore, in John 3:39,44 he states: 'If you were Abraham's children would do what Abraham did.... You are of your father the devil.' It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today."Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
"They are the boastful, arrogant rascals who to the present day can do no more than boast of their race and lineage, praise only themselves, and disdain and curse all the world in their synagogues, prayers, and doctrines. Despite this, they imagine that in God's eyes they rank as his dearest children."Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
"They boast of their race and of their descent from the fathers, but they neither see nor pay attention to the fact that he chose their race that they should keep his commandments."Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
"They turned a deaf ear to us in the past and still do so, although many fine scholarly people, including some from their own race, have refuted them so thoroughly that even stone and wood, if endowed with a particle of reason, would have to yield.Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
"Furthermore, as Gabriel says, he must have come from among their people, undoubtedly from the royal tribe of Judah. Now it is certain that since Herod's time they had had no king who was a member of their people or race."Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
"This was accomplished despite the fact that the other faction, the blind, impenitent Jews — the fathers of the present-day Jews — raved, raged, and ranted against it without letup and without ceasing, and shed much blood of members of their own race both within their own country and abroad among the Gentiles, as was related earlier also of Kokhba."Martin Luther. On the Jews and Their Lies, Martin Bertram, trans., in Luther's Works Vol. 47, The Christian in Society, IV, ed. Franklin Sherman, Helmut T. Lehmann (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971)
-Doright 19:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Direct Quotations from Martin Luther Attacking Jewish Race

message: Is the subject of this article really distinct from Anti-Judaism?  Should the two be merged?  Since I am not following this article, I am not making a formal proposal, leaving it entirely to others to pick up or ignore.  Lima 14:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so, and I would support the merge. Unfortunately, this has been discussed several times before and has failed to result in a merge. Yahel Guhan 01:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge? 

message: I've found these two sources regarding the image:
* http://books.google.com/books?id=H5PAwJvTtasC&pg=PA283&dq=%22Judaism+Without+Embellishments%22&sig=ACfU3U1fM-jgfjKi7xZVIdFTc4ijuH-a-Q
* http://books.google.com/books?id=fE2quB852jcC&pg=PA348&dq=%22Judaism+Without+Embellishments%22&sig=ACfU3U3vt-qNHvDJzn63XNBcbJpwfFbQAw
Cheers, JaakobouChalk Talk 11:05, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image sourcing 

message: An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:14, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC 

message: It seems like we have three articles for two concepts. 
The two concepts are:
# hostility against Judaism and Jews based on religious grounds
# hostility against Judaism and Jews based on non-religious grounds
The three articles are:
# Antisemitism which defines antisemitism as "... against Jews as a national, ethnic, religious or racial group" - so religious and non-religious motivation are mentioned here. It starts in the 3rd century BC in which antisemitism was religion-based at that time and goes on until recent times in which antisemitism is largely of non-religious character.
# Anti-Judaism which focuses on the religious component, it starts in the 1st century and ends with the Reformation. It hardly discusses the Islamic point of view.
# This very article at hand also focuses on the religious component. Compared to the Anti-Judaism article, this article adds substantial content 1) on ancient Hellenistic antisemitism (like the main article Antisemitism does); 2) on the view of the Christian churches in modern times, 3) on the relationship between religion-based antisemitism in history and the Holocaust, 4) on the Islamic point of view.
By and large I think that Anti-Judaism and this article are very complementary in content and can therefore easily be merged. I've been trying to follow the discussion in the year 2007 (see above) but that discussion mainly dwells on principles and not so much on the actual content of the articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:20, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  New merge request 

message: 
This might clear out dead discussions and improve accessibility.
Wikipedia provides some reasonably clear 
Talk page guidelines. One of the sections within the guidelines concerns: When to condense pages. It says: "It is recommended to archive or refactor a page either when it exceeds 75 KB, or has more than 10 main sections".  At the point of this edit the page contained 111 KB   Gregkaye (talk) 14:00, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestion to add settings for an archive bot to work

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:3D Test of Antisemitism which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 10:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in progress

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