Talk:Philosopher king

message: Here are some other famous rulers/statesmen that could possibly be seen as a philosopher king:
*Cicero
*Augustus Caesar
*Nerva
*Trajan
*Hadrian
*Antoninus Pius
*Pericles
*Julian the Apostate  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.105.94.242 (talk) 19:49, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure about a few of these other possible candidates, Cicero might be kind of a stretch since he was only a consul and senior statesman in Rome and was not in total control as some of the other philosopher kings were, also Augustus didn't really practice philosopher or adhere to a philosophical school like Marcus Aurelius adhered to Stoicism for example, if anything Augustus only twisted the philosophies of Cicero to his advantage, Nerva didn't seem to really do all that much so idk that he'd be a philosopher king, Trajan wasn't a philosopher, he was a conqueror in the tradition of Julius Caesar, as for Hadrian thats possible as is Antoninus Pius, Pericles could also I supppose, granted I think that Themistocles might also fall into that category if Pericles is to be considered a philosopher king.  Julian is a possibility too  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.7.193 (talk) 02:55, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: On MSNBC tonight, an Islamic scholar and ambassador called Obama a philosopher king after his recent speech to the Muslim world. This seems apt.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.203.126.65 (talk) 02:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Other Candidates

message: It seems that much of the political basis for historical theocracies is taken from Plato's description of the philosopher-king. In medieval kingdoms, the actual ruler was a monarch, while the virtual ruler was a philosopher-king in the person of Jesus Christ. There are similar examples in the ancient Middle East, where every city was a kind of religious association ruled by an urban deity, often depicted as a philosopher-king. Other traditional cultures in the Far East, such as Buddhists and Hindus, tend to regard their deities as philosopher-kings. ADM (talk) 08:43, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Theocracy

message: This section seems weak and in violation of NPOV.  Making a connection between the idea of the Philosopher King and totalitarian regimes does not undermine the idea itself.  It's not a legitimate criticism, as the regimes of those rulers, and those rulers themselves, did not reflect Plato's ideals.  Furthermore, it is POV to equate those rulers with "bad" without justification.  I mean, now, I'm not seriously going to argue that Hitler wasn't a first-class shithead, so I'm really only talking about the weakness of the connection. —GodhevalT C H 20:26, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  What is the fundamental difference between a "philosopher king" and a "tyrant with an ideological agenda"? 130.233.200.180 (talk) 05:57, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism

message: "Plato defined a philosopher firstly as its eponymous occupation – wisdom-lover."
What is its referring to here?
"He then distinguishes between one who loves true knowledge as opposed to simple sights or education by saying that the philosopher is the only person who has access to Forms – the archetypal entities that exist behind all representations of the form (such as Beauty itself as opposed to any one particular instance of beauty)."
Between what two elements is Plato distinguishing?
"It is next and in support of the idea that philosophers are the best rulers that Plato fashions the ship of state metaphor, one of his most often cited ideas (along with his allegory of the cave)."
What does It is next even mean?
"Karl Popper blamed Plato for the rise of totalitarianism in the 20th century, seeing Plato's philosopher kings, with their dreams of 'social engineering' and 'idealism', as leading directly to Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler (via Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel and Karl Marx).[1] ^ Popper, Karl. The Poverty of Historicism. Routledge, 2002."
This citation is weak. Where specifically in the book did Popper say this? In The Poverty of Historicism article, the mention of Plato is cited as K Popper, The Poverty of Historicism, section 33.
Unclear/Misleading
"In addition, Ayatollah Khomeini is said to have been inspired by the Platonic vision of the philosopher king while in Qum in the 1920s when he became interested in Islamic mysticism and Plato's Republic."
This is what the original source says, "In the 1920's, Ayatollah Khomeini followed his tutor to Qum, where he completed his studies, worked as a teacher and became interested in Islamic mysticism and Plato's Republic, which may have helped shape his vision of an Islamic state led by a philosopher-king."
It didn't say he was inspired by the Platonic vision of the philosopher king. It says it may have helped shaped his vision of an Islamic state led by a philosopher king.
Possible repetition/unclear sentence
"As such, it has been speculated that he was inspired by Plato's philosopher king, and subsequently based elements of his Islamic Republic on it.[2]"
Seems unnecessary to repeat what was just said in the previous sentence and I found nothing on Khomeini basing elements of the Islamic Republic in this article.
But in this article, "It was during these years that Ruhollah [Khomeini] embraced mysticism, studying Man, which is the conceptual foundation of mysticism, and a kind of Islamic existentialism taught by the scholar Mohsin Faiz. He also became fascinated with Aristotle and Plato, whose Republic provided the model for Khomeini’s concept of the Islamic republic, with the philosopher-king replaced by the Islamic theologian." (IRAN: The Unknown Ayatullah Khomeini; http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,920508-3,00.html)
Which is also debatable, "Any totalitarian system has elements of The Republic. To say that Khomeini was specifically influenced by The Republic is a different matter." (http://benatlas.com/2009/06/khomeinis-veleyat-e-faqih-iran-as-platos-republic/)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stealspell (talk • contribs) 20:57, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear writing / Needs rewriting 

message: This sentence seems strange in linking Adolf Hitler with Friedrich Hegel considering what is stated about Political views of Adolf Hitler.
Karl Popper blamed Plato for the rise of totalitarianism in the 20th century, seeing Plato's philosopher kings, with their dreams of 'social engineering' and 'idealism', as leading directly to Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler (via Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel and Karl Marx).
Could someone check this? Karl Popper's book may have said this and this is what page about The Open Society and Its Enemies says:
Nevertheless, Hook argues that Popper "reads Plato too literally when it serves his purposes and is too cocksure about what Plato's 'real' meaning is when the texts are ambiguous", and calls Popper's treatment of Hegel "downright abusive" and "demonstrably false", noting that "there is not a single reference to Hegel in Hitler's Mein Kampf".
--JamesPoulson (talk) 00:02, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible issue with the [[Philosopher_king#Criticism | criticism attributed to Karl Popper]] ? 

message: doesnt it make sense to merge this with Plato's political philosophy?Fhgnm (talk) 10:24, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: * You're not wrong but the article doesn't seem to know that. — LlywelynII 15:57, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: Redirects here now instead of Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors. It needs to finally grow up and stop being a y mess focused solely on Plato and also get into Yao and Shun in Chinese conceptions of ideal rulership, Taoism's take, and whatever version India has, at minimum. — LlywelynII 15:57, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Sage king

message: If Thomas Jefferson gets to be on this list even though he wasn't a king, then I can't think of any modern day leader more befitting of the title "philosopher king" than Mao Zedong. His entire leadership doctrine was based on the dialectical fusion of philosophical theory and practical reality/activity. Lenin would also probably fit, although not to the same extent as Mao. FlamesThePhoenix (talk) 18:37, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add Mao Zedong