Talk:Galileo Galilei/Archive 8

message: The doctrine of papal infallibility / speaking ex cathedra wasn't defined until the First Vatican Council in the 19th century, and as such, I'm removing it from the article (as it would've had no impact on Galileo's teachings.)
--Falkan 23:06, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ex cathedra 

message: there is information about Galileo also in Zaza language however in would list sees one not please assistance...
http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei
I legend vilen now thanks for its assistance. A Zaza.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.245.207.18 (talk) 18:57, 21 October, 2007 (UTC)
:Done (I think—assuming I have correctly understood the request).
:—David Wilson (talk · cont) 16:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for assistance 

message: Above, I wrote:
In saying that none of Galileo's works was censored in any way, I was thinking only of post-publication censorship. However, before any works could be published in Catholic countries in Galileo's time they had to be submitted to a censor for approval.  Galileo was required to make changes to both his Letters on Sunspots and his Dialogue before the censors would give him permission to publish them.  So at least some of his works were in fact "censored" before his trial.
—David Wilson (talk · cont) 15:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Correction

message: How did Galilei come to be known by his first name?  We don't refer to Newton as 'Isaac' or Huygens as 'Christiaan'.  Just wondering.  --ChetvornoTALK 09:36, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Important Italians were referred to by their first name only.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.74.1.47 (talk) 15:12, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, sir.  --ChetvornoTALK 08:35, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is he called by his first name? 

message: I nearly went crazy trying to remember what it was that Galileo supposedly said after being forced to renounce the Copernican system.  I think it's interesting and makes him seem like less of a cop-out for rolling over as the Church demanded.  It gives him a nice "begrudged old man" feel, I suppose, which made him interesting to me.  
Since it's not exactly proven to be true, I figured I shouldn't just throw it on there, but I think it should be place at the end of the discussion of his trial.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Circuitries (talk • contribs) 18:17, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  E pur si muove 

message: Galileo's book Diagramma della Verità (meaning Diagram of Truth) was a secretive work of scientific facts that was too explosive to share with public then. It was smuggled out of Italy and published in Holland. Only one copy has survived (in the Vatican Archives) till date after the book-burning orgy of the Church.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.215.212.158 (talk) 08:00, November 28, 2007
:From a google search, it would appear that Diagramma della Verità is a completely fictional work invented by the best-selling author Dan Brown in his novel Angels and Demons. At any rate, it's not a work that seems to be known to any professional Galileo scholars whose works I have read. For any Wikipedia article to treat it as if it were a real work by Galileo, a much more reliable source than Angels and Demons would be needed.
:—David Wilson (talk · cont) 14:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Diagramma della Verità'' 

message: Page has "In the week of January 7, 1610 Galileo discovered three of Jupiter's four largest satellites (moons): Io, Europa, and Callisto.".
In the USA, the week is held to start on Sunday.  The ISO 8601 week, used internationally, starts on Monday.  Others have other weeks.
The exact dates should if known be given.
Also, for dates between 1581 and 1753 at least, dates need also a statement of whether Julian or Gregorian.
82.163.24.100 (talk) 15:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date Ambiguity 

message: There is an esthetically and intellectually outstanding film about Galileo's trial. I do not want to mess with this good article, but I suggest to a leading author to see this film and to add a reference to it. From the French version of the article:
2005 : Galilée ou l'amour de Dieu de Jean-Daniel Verhaeghe avec Claude Rich dans le rôle de Galilée et Jean-Pierre Marielle dans celui du pape Urbain VIII.
The film is in French and I do not know an English version of it, yet for many that should no be a barrier.
--Lupo Manaro (talk) 16:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Film about Galileo's  trial 

message: This isn't a massive point, and I'd do it myself, but the page has been locked. The German power metal band Blind Guardian did a song called Age Of False Innocence off their album A Night At The Opera which was about Galileo.
Sky God94 (talk) 22:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular Culture 

message: This article passes, as, compared against the six good article criteria:
:1. Well written?: Outstanding prose, but some minor WP:MOS issues. Those don't particularly affect a GA nomination, per se, but if you're going for FA, I'd recommend you correct them.
:2. Factually accurate?: Yes. Well-sourced.
:3. Broad in coverage?: Yes.
:4. Neutral point of view?: Yes.
:5. Article stability? Yes.
:6. Images?: Yes.
Spectacularly done. If you feel that this review was in error, feel free to have it reassessed. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 23:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA nomination 

message: The article currently claims that
“John Philoponus had argued [that a body’s time of descent in free-fall is independent of its weight] over one thousand years earlier (as well as the Oxford Calculators several centuries before Galileo).”
But this claim about Philoponus is both unsourced and also false on David Furley’s 2004 translation of his Physics, and the claim about the Oxford Calculators is also unsourced.
On Philoponus, I had always understood since the 1970s that contrary to Aristotle, Philoponus maintained the speed of gravitational fall in a vacuum would be proportional to specific weight or density, the view also propounded by Galileo in his 1590 De Motu when he taught at Pisa University. I am not aware of any subsequent scholarship having changed this view to that depicted in the article. Thus as Furley’s 2004 translation of Philoponus’s Physics has it:
"But if bodies in themselves have more or less downward tendency, they will obviously have such a difference among themselves even if they move in a void and the same distance in a void will be traversed in less time by the heavier and in more by the lighter, not because of being more or less obstructed, but because of having a greater or lesser downward tendency in proportion to the difference in their natural weight." Physics 679.19-23  [p335 The Philosophy of the Commentators 200-600 AD Richard Sorabji 2004 Duckworth]  
This at least demonstrates Philoponus did not maintain the speed of fall in a vacuum would be independent of weight as the article claims he did. I further understand that ‘natural’ weight here is to be interpreted to mean specific weight or density rather than absolute weight.
This result that speed of free-fall is proportional to natural weight follows from the fact that Philoponus maintains the resistance of the medium is to be subtracted from the motive force or weight, so that v @ W – R,  rather than dividing it as in Aristotle’s v @ W/R.  Thus when R = 0 as in a vacuum, speed is proportional to weight rather than infinite (if weight is not infinite).
Galileo subsequently came to reject this Philoponan theory that the speed of free-fall would be proportional to weight, a view falsely attributed to Aristotelian dynamics, and instead  to maintain that the speed of free-fall is a universal constant and independent of weight. (He was of course grossly mistaken inasmuch as in Newtonian dynamics it is a variable and dependent upon the attracting gravitational mass and distance.)
But Galileo is typically misrepresented by Enlightenment-positivist historians of science as overthrowing an incorrect Aristotelian view that the speed of free-fall is proportional to weight with a modern correct view. Thus the incorrect view of Philoponan dynamics that was overthrown is misrepresented as being the Aristotelian view that was overthrown. It was Philoponan dynamics, not Aristotelian dynamics, that held the speed of free-fall would be proportional to weight, and that was rejected. This all fosters the mistaken view that Philoponan dynamics overthrew Aristotelian dynamics, whereas the truth is the very contrary.
At least the current claim should be flagged as unsourced.
--Logicus (talk) 17:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Factually incorrect that Philoponus held speed in free-fall is independent of weight 

message: :I have written a modern play about Galileo, which would likely be of interest to Wikipedia readers; it could appear under the "Galileo in popular culture" heading.  It is available at http://www.geocities.com/savitz_1999/Galileo.pdf .  I do not have editing privileges, but if someone who does could add a link to it, that would be greatly appreciated.  Sincerely, Dr. Scott Savitz  Scottsavitz (talk) 01:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern play about Galileo 

message: In the 'Physics' section of the article the diagram on Classical Mechanics as reproduced here
 is both mistaken and misleading and irrelevent to the text of this article, so should be deleted.
In itself it is mistaken because its sub-legend 'Newton's second law of motion' is historically mistaken and if anything should be rather 'The second law of motion of classical mechanics'.
This is certainly not Newton's second law stated in the Principia, which was that THE change of motion [referred to in the first law] is proportional to the motive force impressed,    i.e. Dmv @ F, or F --> Dmv (where 'D' = 'the absolute change', Delta, '@' = 'is proportional to', and '->' is the logical symbol for if... then...).
The misrepresentation of Newton's second law as F = ma or similar has the logical consequence that a = F/m and thus a = 0 when F = 0, whereby Newton's first law would be logically redundant just as Mach claimed it was.
But Newton's second law only deals with changes of motion produced by impressed force such as mentioned in the first law, and does not itself assert there is no change of motion without the action of impressed force as the law F = ma does, where F denotes impressed force rather than inertial force. And in fact both Galileo's 1590 Pisan impetus dynamics and Kepler's 'inertial' dynamics, both of which claimed motion would terminate without the continuing action of what Newton called 'impressed force', denied this principle. 
But the logical function and historical purpose of Newton's first law is precisely to assert this principle, that there is no change of motion unless (i.e. If not) compelled by impressed force, and thus whereby Dmv <=> F, rather than just F --> Dmv. (Here <=> is the logical equivalence symbol for 'if and only if', and '-->' the symbol for 'If...then...') Thus Mach’s logical criticism was wrong by virtue of his ahistorical misinterpretation of Newton’s second law as F = ma. 
--Logicus (talk) 18:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delete the diagram on 'Classical Mechanics' ? 

message: Galileo Galilei is forever remembered as the scientist who invented the telescope, turned it skyward, and started a controversial battle with the Roman Catholic Church. He is known to have proved that the earth revolves around the sun and invalidated many of the theories of the ancient Greek philosopher, Aristotle. What many people do not know is that Galileo was also an incredible mathematician, physicist, engineer, and inventor, who was a descendant of a noble family in Florence.
Galileo Galilei was born on February 15, 1594, in Pisa, Italy. His father, Vincenzio Galilei, was a musician and mathematician who contributed greatly to music theory, and wrote a prominent treatise on music called “Seconda Pratica.” His brother, Michelangelo, was a musician of the Grand Duke of Baviera. He also had three sisters; Virginia, Anna, and Livia. 
	Galileo’s father encouraged him to study a subject that would be relevant to society, and not the philosophers that Galileo was so interested in. So, in 1581, Galileo began studying medicine at the University of Pisa. However, he had little interest in the subject, and left without obtaining a degree in 1585, and began to study Euclid and Archimedes. He wrote a treatise in 1586 called The Little Balance, and in 1589, he was appointed Chair of Mathematics in Pisa, at the same university he had dropped out of just four years earlier. 
	Aristotle, the Greek philosopher, stated that heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones. Galileo, with his new vocation, immediately disproved the theory by dropping two cannonballs of different weight off the Tower of Pisa, and watched as they hit the ground at the same time. In 1591 he wrote a treatise, On Motion, which explained his observations. However, Galileo stated that objects of different sizes only fall at the same rate only if they are made of the same substance, a theory which was later proved incorrect. 
In 1592, Galileo became the Chair of Mathematics at Padua. It was in this prestigious position that he researched some of his biggest scientific ideas yet. In 1597, Galileo wrote a letter to his colleague, Jacopo Mazzoni, telling him that he was sure that the earth went around the sun, and that he was afraid to make his opinion public. The reason he was afraid was because Copernicus, just a few decades earlier, had been declared a heretic by the Catholic Church for stating that the universe was heliocentric, or revolving around the sun. The heliocentric theory was declared by the church as being contradictory to the scriptures. 
	Twelve years later, something happened that was detrimental to the Aristotelian theory of astronomy. Kepler’s Star, as it was called back then, is now known as the Supernova of 1604. Although it was cloudy the day it happened, a few days later the bright star was visible to the naked eye, after Galileo did some math using parallax equations, he determined that the supernova was in the distant area that Aristotelian philosophers believed was unchangeable.
	Contrary to common knowledge, Galileo did not actually invent the telescope. The telescope was first invented in Holland, and was used as a child’s toy. As soon as Galileo found out about a device that could make distant objects seem close, he set to work making his own. Using a concave lens behind a convex lens, Galileo was able to create the best telescope of its time. Although there were many others attempting to make such a device, Galileo was able to construct a nine-power telescope that was better than any other. After a small demonstration to government officials, the telescope was immediately patented, and Galileo’s salary was doubled as a reward.
	With his telescope, Galileo was able to make major discoveries in astronomy. First, he discovered that there were mountains and craters on the moon. This was significant because Aristotle believed that all heavenly bodies were pure orbs of light. Second, thousands more stars could be seen. And last, four satellites could be seen revolving around Jupiter. Galileo thought that if Jupiter had four moons, then it was not inconceivable to say that Earth revolved around the sun. Later he discovered that Venus had phases just like the moon.  In 1610, he recorded his observations in a new treatise, the Sidereus Nuncius.	
	Galileo, after his important discoveries, was appointed Mathematician and Philosopher of the Grand Duke of Tuscany, and In 1613 he made his Copernicanism public. He was warned soon after, by the church, to abandon his heretical ideas. Galileo stopped writing about astronomy for a while, although he still strongly believed that the universe was heliocentric.
	When the new pope, Urban VIII, became head of the church in 1623, Galileo thought that he could then keep writing about Copernicanism, and in 1631, his famed Dialogue on the Two Chief World Systems was published. The publisher decided to make one thousand copies, a very large sum for the time.
	When Pope Urban VIII found out about this, he found the document that was ordered in 1616 that prohibited him from writing about Copernican theory, and summoned Galileo to court. He was made to kneel and formally recant his views. After he did this, it is said that he muttered the phrase “Eppur si muove” or “yet it does move.” This is considered to be a myth by most historians, since there is no mention of him saying that until a century later.
	Galileo was sentenced to house arrest for the rest of his life. He continued to study physics, and completed his book, the Discourses and Mathematical Discoveries, which was a summary of all his discoveries. Since he was not allowed to write anything about science, the book had to be smuggled out of his house, and in 1638, it was published in Holland, and on January 8, 1642, he died at the age of 77.
	Although many people still say that Galileo proved that the Earth revolves around the sun, he actually never did. In fact, to this day there is no scientific proof that our solar system is sun-centered (although it is significantly more probable). In N. Martin Gwynne’s Galileo versus the Geocentric Theory of the Universe, it states:
	“Ever since the Copernican theory of heliocentricity was adopted as fact by the scientific community, attempts have been made to devise scientific experiments to prove it. Many of them have been ingenious and some of them should have worked. Remarkably, not only has not one of them produced the proof but the results of all of them are consistent with the hypothesis that the earth is at rest.”     (p. 10)
Since all movement is relative, there is not a very effective method of proving the geocentric or the heliocentric theory.
	Galileo made many lasting impressions on modern science. In physics, Galileo started to grasp the ideas that Isaac Newton did later. He rejected the theory that force is needed to keep something moving. One of his biggest discoveries was that the distance traveled by a falling object is proportional to the square of the time it takes to fall. In the Two New Sciences, Galileo wrote his discoveries, including the law of falling bodies, which is still used today.
	Galileo also discovered that the path of and object through space is a parabola. This contributed to modern warfare because it made it possible to calculate the trajectory of cannonballs or bullets, a phenomenon that many other scientists were trying to explain at that time. 
	Galileo made plenty of other discoveries in physics. He made several advancements in the laws of equilibrium, flotation, and the tides. He even wrote a treatise that was far ahead of his time period about how machines only convert energy, and they do not create it. 
	In engineering, Galileo was known for his science of structures. He proved that the dimensions of buildings are crucial to their stability. Galileo tested many materials that were necessary to building structures with the laws of levers. He applied his knowledge of levers to ship-making when he discovered that oars are like levers, and the water is the fulcrum. This made it possible to find the most efficient way to place the oars on a ship.
	In addition to the nine-power telescope, Galileo also invented the sector, the hydrostatic balance, the thermometer, and a water pump. The sector was a tool for measurement that Galileo sold to his students, and the hydrostatic balance was able to weigh objects in water. Because Galileo did not take the atmospheric pressure into account, the thermometer was very inaccurate. Although it did not work very well, it is considered historic because it was one of the first instruments with units of measurement. Galileo also invented a water pump that, unlike other pumps, required only one horse to move water.
	Galileo made enormous contributions to astronomy. He observed the phases of Venus, Jupiter’s moons, and spots on the sun. Since the argument that Venus and Mercury did not have phases like the moon was a commonly known disproof of heliocentricity, Galileo’s discovery of the phases of Venus was a key element in convincing people that his theory of the universe was correct. In fact, Copernicus had run into this same dilemma, and had used the hypothesis that the suns rays went through these planets to defend his theory. 
	The discovery of Jupiter’s four moons was also a great benefit to Copernicanism. The moon’s obvious revolution around Earth was used by the church to refute Galileo’s beliefs. However, the four moons around Jupiter, which Galileo named Io, Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto, were proof that other planets have moons, and therefore the earth could still revolve the sun even though it had the moon revolving around it. 
	The ancient Chinese were the first to discover spots on the sun when they observed it on the horizon. Galileo, however, was able to see that the sunspots were moving. This, he said, proved that the sun is rotating. 
	Galileo made may other astronomical discoveries. He was the first to see the rings around Saturn. He said that they resembled “ears” or “handles.” He also was the first to state that the Milky Way was made up of stars, and not the band of one material that was previously accepted. 
	Galileo was very adamant about his views. With a talent for polemics that he learned from his father, he was quick to debate anyone that disagreed with him. Many believe that his blindness in his old age was a result of his dedication to finding out more about he spots on the sun. Even house arrest could not stop him from writing. It was not until decades later that a heliocentric universe was accepted as fact, and Galileo was immortalized as one of the greatest astronomers of all time.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.82.110 (talk) 17:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you are looking for Islamic astronomy? One could say the same, if not more so, about Greek, early Persian and Indian influences on Islamic observations.—RJH (talk) 20:39, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Galilean fairy-tales ? 

message: How is it possible that islamic influence is not mentioned in this article without islamic astronomical observatory there would be no gellileo at all why hide history facts.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.66.11 (talk) 15:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you are looking for Islamic astronomy? One could say the same, if not more so, about Greek, early Persian and Indian influences on Islamic observations.—RJH (talk) 20:39, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influence 

message: 2009 is the International Year of Astronomy, marking the 500th anniversary of Galileo's first astronomical observations and the publication of Johannes Kepler's Astronomia nova. I think it would complement the occasion nicely if this page were brought up to FA status by 2009 and received front page coverage on August 25. Anyway, just a thought for those who may have an interest. Thanks.—RJH (talk) 17:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: August 25 2009? Gimme danger (talk) 22:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup. Or perhaps November 30, 2009, the anniversary of when he began observing and illustrating the Moon.—RJH (talk) 17:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Great idea.  I've just used RJH's ideas to nominate this article for the History of Science Collaboration of the Month. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 16:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Also, please supply a reference. —Ms2ger (talk) 13:03, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  International Year of Astronomy