Talk:Vaps Movement

message: This whole article is ridiculous. Its all about organization that by most standars does not qualify as fascist at all. Their support to presidential democracy is not an argument. Article seems to be created simply for POV pushing.--Staberinde 19:08, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So it would seem, especially given that it has been non-linked-to for more than six months by now.  I'll nominate it for deletion once I've gathered a list of most such articles regarding Estonian history and politics. Digwuren 20:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ridiculous 

message: There have been a number of edits, citing publications of  as source.  I have reverted them, as this pressure group does not qualify as a reliable source. Digwuren 15:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: no confirmation for that --TheFEARgod (Ч) 15:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: you reverted the "see also" part --TheFEARgod (Ч) 15:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  lawass 

message: What we really need is an article on Holocaust in Estonia. A good source is the book Suur Häving by Eugenia Gurin-Loov, published in Estonia in 1994. In addition to the 921 Jews who chose to stay in Estonia, 20,000 Jews were imported to labor camps Estonia. These were all murdered before the liberation of Estonia. Except for the 2000 murdered by Germans at Klooga most were executed by Estonians. All paperwork related to the execution of the "Final Solution" is in Estonian. -- Petri Krohn 20:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: as this page mostly deals with this topic now, I agree. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 01:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Petri, since you can read Estonian, see . DLX 06:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pointing out an typo in the article: it says "juba 1914. aasta lõpuks".  Obviously, it should read 1941. Digwuren 07:13, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Holocaust in Estonia]] 

message: There was this passage in the article:
Estonian auxiliary police participated in the extermination of the Jews in Estonia and Pskov region of Russia and provided guards for concentration camps for Jews and Soviet POWs (Jägala, Vaivara, Klooga, Lagedi), in all of which prisoners were killed. The 36th Estonian Police Battalion took part in mass shooting of Jews in a Byelorussian town of Novogrudki on 7 August, 1942. The 37th, 38th, 40th, 286th, 288th  Estonian battalions operated against the partisans in the Pskov, Luga, Gdov regions of Russia and Belarus.  The 658th battalion participated in punitive operations against civilians near the town of Kingisepp and the village of Kerstovo (the Leningrad region) and burnt down the villages Babino, Habalovo and Cigirinka Conclusions of the Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity.
Unfortunately, the source does not appear to match the summary.  While it does describe activities of Estonian police battalions, it never mentions Babino, for example.  I'm putting up a factual accuracy tag; this summary needs to be reworked. Digwuren 07:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Rewrote that paragraph now, quoting just the numbered list. DLX 07:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Factual accuracy 

message: As the Occupation of Estonia by Nazi Germany article is rather scarce we could merge something. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly what? Only truly valid section in this article, Pre-World War II, has nothing to do with Occupation of Estonia by Nazi Germany. Holocaust is already covered there, Controversies today doesn't belong there. To be honest, I see little point in this whole article atm, except as a basis for an article about Estonian War of Independence Veterans' League. DLX 14:26, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Estonian War of Independence Veterans' League's categorization as fascist organization is disputable(yes, there were some similarities but we probably could also find some similarities between modern russia and some fascist state, that does not mean that modern russia is fascist) so I would suggest to create separate article about that organization and move pre-WW II part(or atleast majority of it) there.--Staberinde 15:52, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I will transfer something to the occupation page now. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 19:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I think we reached a "deal". The best way is to change the article's name to Estonian War of Independence Veterans' League and things can be then discussed properly about that org. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 19:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: An article/stub about Estonian War of Independence Veterans' League already exists, as League of Liberators. Current article has more content, but it seems that League of Liberators is the official English name for the movement - so I recommend moving the contents from this article to League of Liberators and making this into redirect. Unless anyone opposes this, I will do so in a few hours. DLX 07:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Moved now to League of Liberators. Tried to merge both articles a bit (this one had better lead), needs some more work, though - will try to do that later. DLX 09:48, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Termer has a point.  Estonian, an agglutinative language, can fit a lot more shades of meaning into every word than English, thus, it's sometimes inevitable that precise translation requires using more words than in original.  Thus, I support moving the article to Union of Participants in the Estonian War of Independence, and leaving League of Liberators a redirect.  It might perhaps be useful to explicitly explain the difference of nuance in a trailing section of the article, too. Digwuren 09:51, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: As a clarification, I prefer this particular name over the former Estonian War of Independence Veterans' League mainly because this name can be sourced to the History Commission.  If a more succinct name can be sourced, or a good name of more notable source can be found, I could support that. Digwuren 09:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I would consider this reasonably unique name acceptable. Digwuren 19:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: League of Liberators

message: I wonder if anyone can find an online copy of "Impact of National Socialist Rule: the Case of Estonia" by Ruth Büttner. I could only find it as html from Google cache: , but I'd really not cite article from there. DLX 13:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further sources 

message: I've added nationalism, also, I'd omit national conservatism, as the latter category would describe rather Päts' side. Vaps movement was quasi-fascist in many respects, in addition to being clearly populist. This is not what conservatism denotes. Thoughts? --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 10:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe Nationalist activism? --Kurlandlegionar (talk) 07:33, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Ideology?