Talk:Korban

message: A little explanation in the first paragraph would be a kindness. We gather that a korban is some kind of sacrifice. Wetman 06:01, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I did a minor rewrite of the first sentence or two for clarity. 66.108.4.183 16:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Explanation required

message: I wrote in this article:
:The majority view of classical rabbis that the Torah's commandments will still be applicable and in force during the messianic era. However, a significant minority of rabbis held that most of the commandments will be nullified in the messianic era, thus holding that sacrifices will not be reinstated. Examples of such rabbinic views include...
Upon re-reading my sources, I am no longer certain that this is or was the majority view. In fact, it is not currently a point of practical halakha, being something that can only be decided in the messianic era. Nonetheless, what do you guys think?  Did/Do most religious Jews believe that many most of the sacrifices will not need to be brought in a rebuilt Temple? RK 03:01, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
::It's a confusing topic.  Initially offerings will be brought in the messianic era, but its not clear if that will continue indefinitely. Jayjg (talk) 17:00, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Majority view

message: Removed for talk. Is the following paragrapg appropriate for this article? IZAK 00:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Christians believe that Jesus was not only a messiah, but that he became a human sacrifice to atone for all of mankind's sins. Christians often cite the rebukes of the prophets against the Children of Israel. Judaism rejects this claim, believing instead that the prophets' criticisms were meant to correct the negative behavior of those Israelites who were sinning, and not as a rejection of the sacrificial system or the Jewish religion.
Sacrifices are a concept that exist in a variety of religions, but korbonot is a Hebrew term and the article describes them as used in the Jewish religion. Christian views of sacrifice would seem more appropriate to one of the articles on Christianity, just as a paragraph on the sacrifice fly is more appropriate to an article on Baseball.--Shirahadasha 02:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: In Mark 7, Jesus is recorded as criticizing the traditional teaching on Corban as being in conflict with the commandments of God.  The Christian understanding of Corban might reasonably be added to the article but I would agree that more general paragraph above is not on topic for this article. Greenshed (talk) 21:52, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Cite? Ogress 06:00, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There are many sources in the forms of commentaries.  Here is one example: James R. Edwards states that "The practice of Corban resulted in egregious casuistry by annulling a moral commandment of the Torah [law] (honor of parents) by a ritual practice of the oral tradition (Corban)." The gospel According to Mark, pp. 210, 211 Greenshed (talk) 21:00, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Christian views

message: The Martyrs as Korbanot section is currently completely unsourced and has the appearance of Original Research It currently connects a few biblical verses through a commentary that so far as can be verified seems to be of the author's own devising. There needs to be sources connecting the concept of martyrdom (including the holocaust etc.) with the system of Korbanot practicised in the Temple -- either Jewish thinkers with this view, or academic scholars who say that Jewish thinkers had this view. Currently the only source that is not a biblical verse is a commentary of Rashi's on the Akadah (sacrifice of Issac), but the idea that this view of Rashi's applies to martyrdom in general rather than solely the Issac story in particular is, so far as a neutral observer could tell from the sources supplied, completely the author's own original theory. Statements about Jewish views of the Holocaust need a post-holocaust source. Will need to be deleted unless sourced. --Shirahadasha 02:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. In addition, the article is woefully poor on its own terms: Where is a straightforward explanation of what a korban is? No discussion of what should be found in the very opening: An animal sacrifice, and also, the types of korbanos: Hatas, Olah, etc. (excuse my transliteration). These all should be part of the article. Also--a brief description in the context of ancient Near East history and Canaanite religion. 66.108.4.183 16:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Martyrs as Korbanot 

message: : Apparently someone is removing the portion of the text that mentions that korbanot were animals. The word korban has never, to my knowledge been used to refer to offerings of "grain, etc." as stated in the (now rewritten) article. Please cite any reference to offerings of this kind in the Tanakh or elsewhere. 66.108.4.183 20:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As an FYI,.the description of the offerings of the heads of the 12 tribes at the dedication of the Temple (the Torah reading for Hannukah) specifically uses the word korban to refer, not merely to grain, but to offerings of vessels and implements. The word korban can be used for any offering to the Temple or Tabernacle for religious purposes. Lawrence Shiffman's From Text to Tradition, a History of Judaism in Second Temple and Rabbinic Times: A History of Second Temple and Rabbinic Judaism reports that in this period rich individuals and communities in the Babylonian and Greek diaspora would donate wall-hangings and furniture to the Temple with their names on it -- much as people donate to religious institutions today. These were Karbonot. Best, --Shirahadasha 23:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Grain offerings as korbanot

message: User:66.108.4.1083 appears to take the view that Korbanot article introduction should refer only to an archaic "cult" by ancient "Hebrews." However, various beliefs and practices regarding korbanot continue to be an inherent part of the Orthodox Jewish religion. Most of the Talmud, the core curriculum of contemporary rabbinics, is basically about how to perform them. Legal principles derived from adjudicating their performance continue to drive Jewish law, and a great deal of theological dispute covers them. They continue to influence contemporary religion and politics. See for example the The Third Temple and Temple Mount articles, and the coverage on contemporary views and issues in this article. We can doubtless come up with compromise language, but it would be incorrect to limit scope to an ancient "Hebrew cult". Classical Judaism recognizes them as part of Judaism, and looks primarily to the Talmud, not the Bible, for a description of their scope and the procedures by which they were performed. By analogy, it would incorrect for me as a Jew to change an article on Jesus' ressurrection or some such thing to refer to an "ancient" or archaic belief, since this is a belief, while ancient, continues to have enormous contemporary influence in Christianity, and its contemporary impact similarly needs to be part of any encyclopedia article. Best Wishes, --Shirahadasha 13:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 
Too many inaccuracies and misstatements: (1) The article, in order to be accurate, ought to make it clear that korbanot primarily refers to an animal sacrifice. Technically, korban may also refer to offerings of grain, etc., but anyone conversant with the Bible and Talmud would know that the word korban, particularly to a the general reader coming here for summary capsulated knowledge, must be informed that the word denotes animal sacrifices. The article does in fact state that there were other types of offerings than animals, but it ought to make clear that the primary sacrifices in the Hebrew cultic ritual were in fact animals, as the original draft mentioned: rams, goats, sheep, birds, doves, etc. (2) Although entire Tractates of the Talmud (e.g. Hulin) deal with the laws regarding korbanot, it is downright absurd to claim that “Most of the Talmud is about how to perform them.” Most of the Talmud (Babylonian and Jerusalem/Palestinian) concern torts, contracts, marriage and divorce, and other areas of what we call today Civil Law. The core curriculum of contemporary rabbinics? Korbanot commands no more than a cursory part of any rabbinical curriculum today, whether orthodox, reform, or reconstructionist. (3) Furthermore, Judaism as such did not exist at the time of the Holy Temple(s); that is why the word “Hebrew” is used in this context. Judaism as a faith did not appear until the end of the Second Commonwealth at the earliest. Prior to that, the correct usage is “Hebrew,” “Israelite,” etc. Solomon was a Hebrew or Israelite king; he is not generally referred to as “Jewish.” But this would lead into an extended discussion of the development of the Hebrew faith from monolatry (Abraham, and the Yahwist and Elohist sources), to a mature monotheism (Early Prophets), to a universal ethical monotheism (Latter Prophets), to Rabbinic Judaism (the Mishna and Talmud). I don't have any theological ax to grind; I ask just that all the evidence--textual, archaeological, epigraphical, anthropological, historical, etc.--be examined fairly and with an open mind, without preconceptions, theological or otherwise. P.S. My mother had a korban minhah prayer book. 66.108.4.183 05:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently I have stepped on someone's ideological toes. I doubt that I will spend any more time on what I perceive will be a losing battle on behalf of clarity and historical consensus, and against obscurantism and dogma. At this point, all I will write is that the interpretation of WK's policies offered by this contributor would apparently require the article on Darwin to state something like, "Many disagree with the views of Darwin, and believe that the world was created by a supernatural Being of one kind or another, many claimisng much more recently than 5 billion years ago, etc etc."  Over 150 years after The Origin of Species, there are actually States in my country (the United States) where the teaching of scientific consensus is constrained in various ways. While I do not believe in censorship, an accomodation must be made in civil society, if it is to be an informed society, on recognition of the progress of knowledge and science. It seems that we, as an informed culture, have not progressed as much as we would like to think, since the Roman Church went after Galileo for having the temerity to suggest that the Earth moved, and that there were 'imperfections' on the surface of the Sun.  Apparently, even the use of the word 'cult' to describe the sacrificing of animals for religious purposes is deemed to be objectionable to some. What more can one say? 66.108.4.183 16:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Korbanot article introduction dispute

message: I have removed the statement that 
"*Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Avodah Zarah 3a, 4b, states that today we should observe the commandments, while Rashi comments that this is so because we will not observe them in the world to come."
as a support to the view that there would be no more commandments or karbanos in the messianic era.  An incorrect assumption is made that Rashi believes that "the world to come" or "Olam habah" is the same as the Messianic era.  On the contrary, unlike the Rambam (Maimonidies), Rashi considers Olam Habah to be when a person dies and is without his body, therefore unable to perform commandments. LemonLion 01:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rashi's View on World To Come

message: Removed following material to Talk page pending review of sources and discussion. This appears to present the views of a single individual, Richard Elliot Friedman, cites biblical passages as sources, and claims that a 1915 German article is believed by the "majority of scholars" without citing a source or informing what the criteria for entering the denominator may be. Most of the material also appears to be irrelevant. This is an article on Judaism, not an article on the Hebrew Bible. Material on non-Jewish practices that are argued to have references or allusions somewhere in someone's interpretation of the Hebrew Bible, together with disputes about those references, appears to be inconsistent with the article's scope. --Shirahadasha 20:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After realizing that this section has been lifted largely verbatim from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia with supplements from Peake's Commentary on the Bible and Richard Elliott Friedman, agree this section is adequately sourced and should go back in. However, it should be carefully presented as a POV rather than fact. The 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia in particular was run by a group of folks from the classical Reform movement who were particularly keen to distance themselves from and portray traditional religious practices in a way no longer done in the Reform movement and which is almost embarassing from the point of view of our contemporary society, which has generally softened its attitude to traditional peoples and their customs in the last century from what we today might regard as highly ethnocentric, even imperialist attitudes. It should be noted that a number of traditional Jewish commentators, particularly Nachmanides, had the idea that human sacrifice existed prior to its abolition by the Torah and that Jews backslid into it, and that this is part of the sins for which, in the classical tradition, Jews were warned by the prophets and then punished with calamiites including the end of the Kingdom of Israel, the exile of the Ten lost tribes, the destruction of Solomon's Temple, and the Babylonian Captivity. --Shirahadasha 23:22, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Human Sacrifice section 

message: Someone added Talk:Korban/Comments on 20 December 2006. Thanks, IZAK 11:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk:Korban/Comments 

message: To the best of my knowledge, the majority of the Muslims in South East Asia use the word korban to mean sacrifice. The important muslim holiday Eid ul-Adha is sometimes called Hari Korban in Malaysia and means Sacrifice Day. Can we find some way to make this factoid relevant to the article? Perhaps some mention in the introduction to the article where the term korban gets used in other languages and religious traditions? Ryan Albrey (talk) 08:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If there's a reliable source that the words are etymologically related, I don't think it would be unreasonable to add an "In Islam" section. However, the intention of the article is to stick to matters directly involving korban used in the Hebrew Bible  rather than "sacrifice" in some more general sense. Best, --Shirahadasha 04:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

text: The Malay word korban derives from the Arabic, which in turn is similar in meaning with the Hebrew. Malay and modern Arabic colloquil usage may not match Quranic meaning. For example, Malay, modern Hebrew and modern Arabic use the word for korban to also mean victim (of a car crash). However, this section is specific to the Jewish Bible levitical source, not the sources from Islamic scriptures or the Christian Testament. Hence Jewish Anderstein (talk) 06:13, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bahasa Melayu and Islam

message: Editors here should double-check the writings of Christoph Luxenberg (cf The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran) to see if the word Korban is not in fact related to the word Quran. The qurbana is also said to be linked to korban. ADM (talk) 00:48, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Word related to Quran

message: Within the body of the article, many korbanoth are mentioned but not in a coherent fashion. I think we need a list / table to offer some details near the beginning (maybe in another sub-section of Background?)  I'll try to step up to the plate another time - if I remember.  But maybe someone else could do so sooner? --Eliyahu S Talk 09:05, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is still a need for a list / table in this article to offer a comprehensive background to korbanot in Judaism. As User:Eliyahu S pointed out in 2010 183x2hope (talk) 09:56, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for tickling me on this, 183x2hope; I'd completely forgotten in the intervening decade. :-) Now it's back on my radar, but admittedly not high on my priority list.  I'd like to review the issue, because I'm wondering if it mightn't be simpler to create a List of Korbanoth page that we could reference in the lede, and perhaps tie that in with a CAT. The kind of table that I'd like to see would be an ambitious undertaking.  If you're up for discussing the concept (or anyone else), maybe we should start a new section here on Talk about Table or List page or something similar, instead of this 10-y/o thread. --Eliyahu S Talk 05:52, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need to list ''korbanoth'' 

message: ..Women made offerings in the Court of the Women accessed by the Women's Gate, on the North Side of the Temple, and offered them in the same place that men offered them. Women who were not offering Korbanot were required to remain within the Ezrat Nashim (women's courtyard).  http://www.ou.org/torah/tt/5764/vayeitzei64/mikdash.htm accessdate =2006-08-17 
Is there a better source for this? In ictu oculi (talk) 08:47, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Catriel Sugarman 

message: Unfortunately, WP:RS discussing Ancient Israel do not use korban but "offering":
* israel OR leviticus OR levites OR moses "offering" 247,000
*israel OR leviticus OR levites OR moses "offering" 2,900
100x. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:45, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:naming conventions (use English)]]

message: Substituted at 21:23, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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