Talk:Hinduism/Archive 14

message: To all editors of Hinduism,
I suggest we all request for check user to find out sock-puppet of mischievous annonymous user to include non-Hindu rascality in Hinduism. swadhyayee 01:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay swadhyayee, do you have any leads on who you think is a sock-puppeter and a potential sock puppet, As it will be hard to just guess and check since there is so much more important work that we could be doing. So please share any ideas.__Seadog ♪ 16:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I suggest we request for check user for the sock-puppet of annonymous mischievous editor. 

message: plz change the color of 'aum' symbol to saffron and change the photo of Lord ganesha with some other photo of lord Ganesha.plz do it soon as they are not looking good.
::I do not see what is wrong with the Aum pictures...Also the Ganesha picture is not exactly supposed to be a beautiful painting of him rather it is depicting a Ganesha Murti which describes the context.__Seadog ♪ 16:17, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand that black is considered to be a bad colour but when write Aum with a pen or type the symbol onto a computer is it not black (or blue)? But we'll try to find another saffron Aum. Also why don't you take a digital photo of your Ganesh murti at home if you have one and if it looks. Then you can upload it onto Wikipedia and place it on this article and on Ganesha. You can help us out. One of Wikipedia's policies to BE BOLD! GizzaChat © 05:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures 

message: I have created a new article Hindu iconography since I did not find any other wikipedia article on this topic (let me know if there is one). Currently its content is largely cut-and-pasted from  Themes and symbols with a few more stub-sections added.
Please feel free to expand, correct, re-organize and add references to the new article ! I hope that once the article is well-developed, we can shorten the  Themes and symbols section on the main page. Abecedare 20:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good job, I added a template to it.__Seadog ♪ 20:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Seadog. I'll also try to add category information to the article. Will appreciate any help in developing it - I am loath to 'own' an article :-) Abecedare 20:39, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great start to the article so far Abecedare! Keep up the good work! GizzaChat © 07:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hindu iconography 

message: Is not SrimadBhagawadGeeta contained in Mahabharat, which in turn is contained in SrimadBhagawat Purana? I find no mention of SrimadBhagawat Purana, where perhaps it should have been mentioned. Mahabharat is not a separate book. Aupmanyav 01:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Raj and Abecedare. Appreciate the input. Aupmanyav 06:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC
You're welcome.
Raj2004 10:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is something to understand clearly. 'Vyas' is diametre, IMHO it is used in the sense of an expander of a story or an editor who collects publishable material. Probably there have been many 'Vyasas' through the ages when our scriptures and puranas were transmitted orally. 'VedaVyas' is fiction and represents these 'Vyasas' collectively. Even now we have the caste in Brahmins called 'Vyas'. I would also mention a related generic name 'Shuka'. 'Shuka' means parrot. These personages recited the collections of 'Vyasas'. In the same vein, we have 'Soot'. Soot is a thread, and the manager of a thread in a discussion or a performance was called 'Soot' as we call the conductor of a play as 'Sutradhara' (one who carries the thread). 'Sutradharas' are there in Indian dance/drama performances like Kathakali in Kerala (dance and story), Jatra in Bengal (do not know much about it but it must be similar), Padh in Rajasthan (illustration and story), Pandavani in Chhattisgarh (dance and story), Alha-Udal in Madhya Pradesh (dance and story), etc. Aupmanyav 14:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: All views are welcome and valuable. I wrote what is mine. It is recorded that Maharshi VedaVyas (going by your view) asked his four desciples the job of compiling one Veda each. Puranas are many things, for educated and for uneducated, for wise and for dumb, and as you rightly said, they are the source of guidance for all hindus for righteous living. Aupmanyav 11:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  SrmadBhagawadGeeta 

message: Hinduism - Core concepts - 'Modern Hinduism evolved from the ancient Vedic tradition'. Vedic tradition certainly a part of hindusm but can you attribute the whole of hinduism to Vedas? What about Rama and Krishna who find no mention in RigVeda? What about Vishnu and Rudra who are lesser Gods in Vedas (there is no mention of Shiva or Shakti. Of course, no mention of Bhairava, Ganesha, or Hanuman also). Was India bereft of any religious tradition before the coming of Aryans? How come, that Aryan Gods are today known as lesser Gods in hinduism? Who was the winner in the war of faiths? It were the indigenous Indian traditions. Are you trying to produce some synthetic hinduism? I thought the Aryan madness was gone with Hitler. Aupmanyav 06:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats what evolved means. It is like how we evolved from the apes. There are no red-haired monkeys or gorillas that can talk. Evolved means that Hinduism developed from the Vedas. It does not mean that Hinduism is completely Vedic. Otherwise the Puranas, Ramayan, Mahabharat, Bhagavad Gita and Upanishads are nothing. GizzaChat © 06:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, you agree that Hinduism is not completely Vedic. That is what I am bothered about. Aupmanyav 14:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes you are right. The Vedas are older than the rest of the Hindu texts. Both Westerners and Hindus believe this. The Vedas are like a tree trunk and the other texts are like many branches. All of the Astik views came from the Vedas but of course are not only the Vedas. GizzaChat © 07:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Both, the Vedic tradition and the indigenous thought are very old. Some scholars like Tilak opine that Vedic tradition is older than the last ice-age (some 18000 years). Avataras are probably an assimilation of deities worshipped in different areas in India, Rama from Awadh, Krishna from Braja, NriSimha from Andhra Pradesh, Buddha from North Bihar, Parasurama from Gujarat, Vamana could be from Kerala since Bali was a Kerala king. I do not know which are the places venerated for Matsya, Kurma, Varaha avataras. Perhaps a Wikipedia editor can help. Both the traditions were contemporary and strong. Unfortunately, the number of migrant Aryans was small (coming from Afghanistan and Central Asian arid regions) as compared to the indigenous population which is as bountiful as ever. Perhaps that is the reason indigenous thought prevailed; and Vishnu, Shiva, and Shakti became the prime deities in India. Aupmanyav 14:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Tilak was a fighter not a thinker. There is no such thing as Aryans, Dravidians, etc. Out of India Theory is more probable than AMT. Note that Valmiki is known to be South Indian, yet he wrote Sanskrit. The western historians have shoved and compressed Hindu history into a little box, when it is timeless. The "Aryans" are merely a sub-shoot of the same group of Africans that emigrated from Africa eons ago, and became another race out of the many. India did not turn scythian, hun, greek, or Persian after their "invasions". If nothing they absorbed the invaders into adopting Hinduism and Indian tongues. See Pamheiba and other Manipuris and Ahom kingdom for more recent examples. The Ahom's are akin to SE asian tribes, but slowly adopted Oxomiya and Hinduism over Ahom (language) and Buddhism. Pamheiba converted to Hinduism and Manipur followed suit in the early 18th century.Bakaman Bakatalk 01:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Dear Bakaman, Lokmanya BalGangadhar Tilak was both, a fighter as well as a thinker. The first to say 'Swarajya hamara janmasiddha adhikar hai, aur hum ise le kar rahenge' and writer of such books as Geeta Rahasya; Orion, The Antiquity of Vedas; and Arctic Homes in Vedas. He was also the editor of the Pune newspaper, 'Kesari'. Whatever you may say about that great man, it would be insufficient. The only thing is that he was not a conceited scholar. He believed that Aryans hailed from a region close to North Pole because the there is clear evidence for that in the Vedas, for example, the dawn lasting for 30 days (the ushas, 30 sisters), which cannot happen anywhere else. Aupmanyav 11:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not the place to be discussing about Aryans etc. Everybody is entitled to their own beliefs. There is strong evidence and flaws in both theories as shown on their respective Wiki pages. This is a problem that regularly occurs here. Hinduism-editors start talking about Hinduism here instead of how to improve the article. If anybody wants to discuss their philospohical views, they can start a blog, or go to a Hindu online forum. GizzaChat © 11:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So, can I finally take it that the fellow editors accept that Hinduism is not derived only from Vedas and there is an equally  strong inheritance from other indian traditions, and make the necessay changes in the article where it is mentioned that Hinduism is derived only from the Vedic tradition?? If there are objections, please let me know of them. Aupmanyav 12:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: If it is DaGizza, you have forgotten to sign. I am in no way separating Vedas from Hinduism, they are inseparable. But the hinduism of vilages believes in many things. They do not know about Vedas or Vedanta. Have you heard of a God Jamru? That is the presiding deity of the villagers of Malana in Himachal Pradesh, they do not know any other God. Many villages in many areas have their own Gods or Godesses. Hinduism has no objection to that. This is from the indigenous Indian beliefs. Shiva, Ganesh, Hanuman, Ayyappa, and Yelamma also are such Gods and Godesses. Even Tirupati Balaji or Puri Jagannath seem to have non-Vedic origins. Elite/Sanskritized/educated hindus have assimilated them as avataras, bhairavas, or devis. But that may not be the beliefs of their worshippers. For them they are individual separate Gods and Godesses. Not everything in hinduism is derived from Vedas or Vedanta. This is what I want to be reflected in the article. Even now there is excess of idol worship, the teachings of Nanak or Dayananda who were influenced by Islam has not changed the thinking of hindus barring a few. Actually we do not see anything wrong with idol worship. Do the Sikhs and Arya Samajis not bow to photographs of the two? Aupmanyav 16:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is this blue-blooded Aryan? 

message: 3 Hindu Scriptures.
The last sentence of the first paragraph reads:
"Over many centuries, the teachings of the were refined by other sages, and the canon expanded."
Maybe I'm wrong, but to me there seems that there should be a word between "the" and "were":
"Over many centuries, the teachings of the ____ were refined by other sages, and the canon expanded."
Maybe "Hindu scriptures" fits in here.
Or else "of the" can be removed from the sentence:
"Over many centuries, the teachings were refined by other sages, and the canon expanded."
Tell me what you think, because there could be something I'm not seeing.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander (talk • contribs) 
:I think you're right. There might have been a word between "the" and "were" before which is no longer there. Both of your proposals sounds good, but I suggest "of the" because in the article's current state, we need to shoren as much as possible! GizzaChat © 11:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Removing "of the" seems best to me. Good catch. ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 11:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes you are right. Good catch!  Om namah Shivaaya HeBhagawan 00:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Good catch indeed!__Seadog ♪ 03:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does this sentence make sense? 

message: I am sorry for this off-topic question, but it may be important. I have been using the Hindi Wikipedia to input Devanagari characters. When adding the i-matra (not ī), I have noticed two behaviours: when at work, the matra is placed upon the preceding consonant, however, at home, the matra is placed on the next consonant. For example, in my signature (ॐ नमःशिवाय), at work, I see, "Namaḥśivāya", but at home, I see, "Namaḥśaviāya". Please tell me which way it is displayed on your screens.
ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 07:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I may be able to help you on this, since I too had been 'fooled' into making mistaken edits on wikipedia by this issue (See , ). I think the problem is that the Indic scripts (or rather 'right-to-left' scripts) are not properly installed on your home computer. The solution for correcting that is  here (I am assuming that you are using Windows XP. IIRC the problem does not appear when using Internet Explorer 7 as opposed to Firefox) Hope that works ! Abecedare 08:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Check the Wikipedian page on Indic scripts, which is Wikipedia:Enabling_complex_text_support_for_Indic_scripts#Check_for_existing_support. Do the test mentioned on the page with both of your computers. One of them probably hasn't been updated in Indian scripts. GizzaChat © 08:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahh, thank you all. It's much better now. ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 13:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Try using the IAST template.--D-Boy 02:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Devanagari Question 

message: To me the varna section seems to be fine. Can we remove the NPOV tag?-- Anupamsr|talk |contribs  05:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the varna section has been trimmed sufficiently to have no POV statements. We should remove the NPOV tag. ɤіɡʍаɦɤʘʟʟ 18:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cast/Varna 

message: Hi all, I think we should include a small write up about pativrata dharma or atleast a mention of it in this article. This feature of treating ones husband as God seems to be unique in Hinduism as it is not found in any other religion. Many great pativrata's of yore still inspire the minds of devout hindus. Such a high status is given to these great ladies in Hinduism that, it is told, mere remembrance of them would purify one's sins. One more thing we could do is to have a sub template under hinduism template listing links to articles of famous pativrata's. I could find only Sukanya and Anusuya in wikipedia. We should have articles about all pativrata's and their links in a subtemplate. please let me know your opinions.
Lokesh 2000 07:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Lokesh, Pativrata dharma, or considering husband with the devotion equal to God is intrinsic to Hinduism, though I would not like to include it in the main Hinduism page. It can be put in any related article on hindu women or relationships. If the christians or muslims laugh on it, I give two hoots for that. It is our culture. The test of the relationship is when the husband is cruel or afflicted with some disease. Even in such a condition a hindu woman has to prove herself true. Aupmanyav 17:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pativrata Dharma 

message: You'll note that I have deleted the "Themes and Symbols" section from the main page (see older version  here). I had branched off the section into a new Hindu iconography page a few days back, which now has expanded and improved content (thanks especially to Seadog and GourangaUK !), and was featured in the "Did you know" section of Wikipedia's Main Page earlier today.
Instead I have replaced the section by a shorter text in the  Hindu iconography sub-section on the Hinduism page (where I believe it is better placed, since it follows discussion of "Puja" and "Worship of God through images"). In that text, I have tried to highlight only the origin and significance of the symbols  in general (as I understand the topic), and listed a few examples. I have tried to avoid going into a detailed discussion of individual symbols since I think that is better left to the specialized page on the topic. Also I have retained only the Swastika image instead of the three images of Aum, Swastika and Yantra - since the Aum symbol already appears on the page and Yantra is not as universally recognized (correct me if I am wrong here).
The upshot: The main page is shorter by 2KB + 2 images + 3 lines in TOC, while the topic itself is better covered on wikipedia by the specialized page! Of course, further improvements can and should be made.  It would be especially useful if someone can add appropriate references. Abecedare 18:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good work, and thanks for letting us know it was on the main page!__Seadog ♪ 16:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hindu Iconography 

message: I have filled up saffron color in the original Aum symbol but I am not able to upload it.Sarvabhaum 17:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aum in saffron color