Talk:Active measures

message: This article should probably include examples of active measures conducted by KGB and FSB. Biophys 04:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to be rather well accepted. See for example book by Cristopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin, page 292. They call it "political warfare". "Active measures" are also widely used in other books about KGB.  The expression indeed came from "Soviet phraseology". Biophys 04:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolute nonsense. Are Vasiliy Mitrokhin and Christopher Andrew (his book cowriter) represent the whole Western Civilisation on that issue?. Second there is no such thing as "Soviet phraseology".Vlad fedorov 10:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article should include...

message: My point here is very simple. I am not doing any original research or promote my own opinion. I only cite sources (as we all suppose to do), and these sources or people are very good experts and prominent enough, since they are described in Wikipedia. Any alternative views are very welcome, if supported by similar sources, but one should not simply delete the text supported by references. If an Internet link is dead, please mark this as  and wait for a few days until I can repair the  reference.   Again, we are not proving anything here; we are not judges in the court. We only summarize information from other sources. Biophys 19:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact you do promote your personal opinion that FSB and other stuff are secret police. By doing so you do also original research, for you don't have reliable sources stating that all these organization are a secret police. Ion Macepa should be properly indentified as an author of his allegaitions - that the sorrow consequence of you contributing only from one POV source.Vlad fedorov 05:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverting recent edits by an unregistered user

message: You modified my text: 
Active Measures (Russian: "Активные мероприятия") are a form of political warfare conducted by the Soviet intelligence services (Cheka, OGPU, NKVD, KGB, GRU, FSB, and SVR) allegedly to influence a course of world events.
But this is not a claim or accusation. This is definition: what is the "active measures"?  So, you misled the reader. Of course these "measures" tremendously influenced the course of word events (all historians agree). That was a success of KGB. I must revert this. Biophys 05:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vlad Fedorov edits

message: Clean-up is really needed. Beside articles missing (the FSB, etc.), the article confuses everything, mixing operations in the 1920s with Chechnya ! I know that there are continuities from the Tsarist Russia to modern Russia, passing by the USSR, but that's not a reason to jump from the 1920s to the 2000s and back to the 1960s... Beside, as Vlad Fedorov notes immediately above, Ion Macepa is famous for being unreliable. So, when he claims that he heard Ceaucescu, another trustworthful source, to have said that Moscow had planned to... this is enough to suscite some questions. Although there are clearly no doubts that Moscow has engaged in such operations, as well as Washington and all intelligence agencies, over-simplification on the pretexts of ideological struggle is like shooting oneself in the foot. Beside, I am most intrigued about this "reference": Yossef Bodansky The Secret History of the Iraq War (Notes: The historical record). Regan Books, 2005, , concerning events in the 1940s in Central Asia and the Ukrainian nationalist army. What's the relationship? Could the page be cited, and could we have a quote here on talk page? Finally, as a note, Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Provide context for the reader and WP:CONTEXT will be useful readings. Thanks, however, for the article! Tazmaniacs 13:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This part of Bodansky book (Notes: The historical record) describes active measures by KGB. I think you are right, and this part of Bodansky book must be explained better and more prominently in this article. As about history, this is exactly the point: the tactics ("active measures") are very similar over the time. Please provide at least one example when Ion Macepa claimed anyting obviously wrong (supported by reliable sources). Only then one can claim that "Ion Macepa is famous for being unreliable". Otherwise, this is OR and POV. Biophys 14:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Claims by him that USSR has nurtured and sponsored virtually all terrorists in the world. Unevidenced citations of KGB and USSR political leaders by Macepa, who was just a Romanian (periphery) bureaucrat, and wasn't a member of a general task force. He claims he had an access to all KGB information which render him as a clown at once. Nobody, nobody could say that he knows everything about KGB, CIA, FBI, MI5 and so on. It is just stupid. For intelligence agencies, at least...Vlad fedorov 19:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I may have moved too fast, but I'm not sure what "well poisoning" I did. Let's go slowly: do we agree that we need to chronologically divide this article, and that it has no sense starting in the 1920s, then jumping to the 2000s, then going back to the 1950s, to finally end back in the 2000s? Shouldn't we clearly separate 1920s, Cold War, and FSB period? This article really needs clean-up... Tazmaniacs 04:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up & a few remarks 

message: I made a subsection for these claims reviving teh "Bulgarian connection" theory about Mehmet Ali Agca. Please see the Italian Mitrokhin Commission article and debate about the article over there. Tazmaniacs 04:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is article about "active measures", not about Mitrokhin or Pacepa.Biophys 00:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italian Mitrokhin allegations 

message: What is the relationship between the claims about the Ukrainien insurgent army and the Iraq War? The source given is that one:
Yossef Bodansky The Secret History of the Iraq War (Notes: The historical record). Regan Books, 2005, , concerning events in the 1940s in Central Asia and the Ukrainian nationalist army. What's the relationship? Could the page be cited, and could we have a quote here on talk page? See WP:CS please. Tazmaniacs 04:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see pages with title: "Notes: The historical record" (in the end of the book). It is written right there. I will include this material in the article more prominently when time allows. Biophys 00:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ukrainian insurgent army and the Iraq War 

message: They should be presented for what they are: allegations. Macepa and Ceaucescu are not the more reliable sources you can think of. His declarations and conspiracy theories that liberation national movement would have not existed without the KGB must be toned down; even if they have 1% truth, explaining decolonization by conspiracy theories is a quite interesting view of history. Tazmaniacs 04:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: National Review Online is a perfectly reliable source according to Wikipedia criteria. If you have any other reliable sources that tell about Soviet "active measures" (rather than about Mitrokhin) - you are welcome to cite them here. No one tells that liberation national movement would have not existed without the KGB; I only cite exactly what sources say. Biophys 00:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Macepa's allegations 

message: After all, I can agree with you that parts about promotion of terrorism and assassinations could be improved. More sources should be cited  (there are numerous publications on this subject).  I will try to improve this as time allows. Biophys 00:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So, I included more material from Bodansky book.Biophys 05:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply to criticism

message: Read http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/07/31/060731fa_fact?printable=true Vlad fedorov 05:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  For all know-it-all's here 

message: It was not written anywhere that all Chechen rebels are "puppet forces". Certainly, they are not! The 15 sources claim that only some of them have been  controlled by FSB, GRU (or perhaps were not Chechen at all), just as during Basmachi revolt and other events. Biophys 15:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which sources state these facts? Delirium of Litvinenko would count as fact? He already wrote that Russia is responsible for September 11th attacks, which is cowardly disguised from his article, because it makes him a clown. Allegations of cold war veteran David Satter? Allegations of Beresovsky slave Sergei Yushenkov who has bought his position in Duma and wasn't elected really? Basaev never worked for GRU - it suffices to look at his biography in Wikipedia.Vlad fedorov 05:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I cite perfectly reliable and multiple sources that say: Basaev worked for GRU  during certain period of his life (probably he stopped working for GRU after loosing his leg on minefields near Grozny). If you have any good sources that say: "No, Basaev did not worked for GRU" - you can cite them. But you can not delete my text supported by good sources simply because you personally disagree with these sources and believe that notable persons who wrote them are "clowns", "slaves",  or "bought his position in Duma", as you say.Biophys 15:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Puppet rebel forces in Russia

message: I used just a few sources here. There is enormous literature about "active measures", and I can bring it here if necessary.Biophys 15:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New sources?

message: Let's talk. I have included all texts from our two different versions that are supported by references. Please tell me if any sourced text is missing, or if any particular source is unreliable in your opinion. Then, let's discuss the matter and decide. If the source is indeed unreliable according to official Wikipedia criteria, we will exclude the corresponding segment of text. But we can not simply delete large segments of text supported by references without any preliminary discussion. Biophys 01:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So, I have included all referenced texts (also the fragment about Mitrokhin comission which I think is redundant) - to find a compromise. But you do not want to discuss anything and simply continue deleting all referenced texts, claiming that authors are "clowns" (in your opinion), etc. Biophys 15:37, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am new to this dispute but I will have to go with Vlad, I mean how serious are you by using conspiracy theories to justify everything. Moscow Theatre seige was carried out by Movsar Barayev and was broadcast LIVE. How the hell could FSB have prepared it? Biophys your personal views on Russia and FSB are irrelevant and gross violation of WP:POINT. --Kuban Cossack 16:44, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, Kuban Cossack. Thank you for coming here! This is fine if you disagree with a certain version of Moscow Theatre seige events. But you just have deleted A LOT of text and references about other events. So, I suggest the followig. Let's start from the complete text with all references. Then you tell here which exactly references you think are unreliable (for example, the reference to Litvinenko), and we discuss this first, and then delete if necessary the corresponding segment of text. I guess, you actually do not like that I cited ONLY references like Litvinenko. Then you are very welcome to bring any other additional references that say the opposite. So, we can do this in a "pro" and "contra" arguments style, rather than deleting perfectly appropriate references that someone simply do not like. I respect your opinion. Let's just discuss what exactly you do not like and correct, in accordance to Wikipedia policies. Biophys 21:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

text: You just said: "Undid revision 117540337 by Biophys (talk)bullshit conspiracy theories of Radio Free Europe and Stomakhin are not credible sources)" But these sources were about Moscow metro bombing, not about Moscow hostage theater crisis. I have checked these sources once again and can agree with you that the source with Stomakhin's article is indeed unreliable, and that Radio Free Europe article, although a reliable source, actually does not claim that Moscow metro bombing was organized by FSB. So, let's remove this. As about other sources in the same paragraph, they appear to be good. So, it would be appropriate just to cite an opposite point of view about Moscow theater crisis. You are welcome to do it.Biophys 22:04, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: We must find a compromise

message: Biophys had made section based on rumors and allegations. Wikipedia is not a yellow press place. All information should be reliable and be based on facts, rather than allegations.Vlad fedorov 05:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Wikipedia rules, the text must be based on reliable sources (see WP:RS). You just deleted the large portions of text supported by multiple reliable sources (see below).Biophys 14:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Puppet Rebel Forces in Russia 

message: :According to Wikipedia rules, the text must be based on reliable sources (see WP:RS). You just deleted the following text supported by reliable sources:
1. Soon after World War II, various ethnic militant groups in the Baltic States and Poland resisted Communist occupation. Many NKVD agents and coopting nationalist leaders were sent to join and penetrate the nationalist movements. Many puppet rebel forces were created by the NKVD and permitted to attack local Soviet authorities to gain credibility and exfiltrate senior NKVD agents to the West.  (reference to book by Yossef Bodansky)'
2. That was a successful coup d'état organized by the FSB to bring Vladimir Putin to power, according to former FSB officer Alexander Litvinenko, lawmaker Sergei Yushenkov, and journalist David Satter, a Johns Hopkins University and Hoover Institute scholar  Yuri Felshtinsky, Alexander Litvinenko, and Geoffrey Andrews. Blowing up Russia : Terror from within. New York 2002. .  Sergei Yushenkov: That was a coup in 1999. David Satter. Darkness at Dawn: The Rise of the Russian Criminal State. Yale University Press. 2003. . . All attempts to independently investigate the Russian apartment bombings were unsuccessful. Journalist Artyom Borovik died in a suspicious plane crash. Vice-chairman of Sergei Kovalev commission created to investigate the bombings Sergei Yushenkov was assassinated. Another member of this commission Yuri Shchekochikhin died presumably from poisoning by thallium. Investigator Mikhail Trepashkin hired by relatives of victims was arrested and convicted by Russian authorities for allegedly disclosing state secrets.  (this is supported by multiple reliable sources)
3. Another provocation designed to start the Second Chechen War and bring Vladimir Putin to power was possibly Dagestan War initiated by terrorist Shamil Basayev. It was reported that Alexander Voloshin from Yeltsin administration paid money to Basayev to stage the Dagestan War  The Second Russo-Chechen War Two Years On - by John B. Dunlop, ACPC, October 17, 2001   Paul Klebnikov: Godfather of the Kremlin: The Decline of Russia in the Age of Gangster Capitalism,    The Operation "Successor" by Vladimir Pribylovsky and Yuriy Felshtinsky (in Russian)., that Basaev worked for Russian GRU at this time  Western leaders betray Aslan Maskhadov - by Andre Glucksmann. Prima-News, March 11, 2005   Checehn Parliamentary speaker: Basaev was GRU officer The Jamestown Foundation, September 08, 2006 (reference)
4. Former FSB officer Aleksander Litvinenko and investigator Mikhail Trepashkin alleged that Moscow theater hostage crisis was organized by Chechen FSB agents  Lazaredes . Yulia Latynina and other journalists accused FSB of staging many smaller terrorism acts, such as market place bombing in the city of Astrakhan, bus stops bombings in the sity of Voronezh, the blowing up the Moscow-Grozny train.  Special services stage undermining activities - by Yulia Latynina, Novaya Gazeta, 03 April, 2006.   The marketplace was blown up by photorobots by Vjacheslav Izmailov, Novaya Gazeta, 07 November, 2005. .
You repeatedly did this many times. In my opinion, this is vandalism.Biophys 14:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All these sources contain not facts but allegations unconfirmed and ussuported. Therefore they could be cited just as allegations. They are cited by Biophys with violation of Wikipedia attribution policies as facts and not as allegations. Therefore I have deleted them.Vlad fedorov 04:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All these sources are not reliable, couldn't be ascertained and therefore must be deleted as defamatory.Vlad fedorov 06:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Alleged vandalism by Vlad Fedorov

message: I proposed to negotiate here. But instead someone simply deletes my text sayig this: "puppet forces? liberation movements? grow up...). Fine. How about article Criticism of Vladimir Putin (a translation from Russian Wikipedia)? Biophys 00:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Last edits

message: Kuban kazak, to claim that something is a conspiracy theory, you must justify this by sources/references. Otherwise, this is your OR and POV.Biophys 00:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Conspiracy theories"

message: The notion that the KGB "used" Phillip Agee to discredit the CIA is highly dubious. Agee's work contains nothing that has been shown to be disinformation, and although he had contacts with the KGB, he never allowed them to "use" him as a mouthpiece, as the article suggests. 50.74.192.11 (talk) 21:36, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  agee -- dubious 

message: "Lawrence Bittma" in the footnotes - is that meant to be Ladislav Bittman?
2nd point: To me, it makes little sense to concentrate on active measures being a Soviet specialty. First of all, all other East Bloc intelligence agencies introduced disinformation units (the Hungarians being the last, in the early sixties). But my main point ist that, of course, the US were indulging in such measures, too, without any doubt. The reports by the Church and Pike committees are full of information on this, although these actions were not called "active measures".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.104.59.254 (talk) 10:45, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two minor points 

message: I deleted this passage added by User:Froglich:
In Dreams from My Real Father, documentary filmmaker Joel Gilbert asserts that U.S. President Barack Obama's real biological father was Communist Party USA activist Frank Marshall Davis, and that his entire political career is "a story of Reds and deception".
This is WP:FRINGE, and even if were widely accepted that Davis was Obama's father, we would need a reliable source saying that the creation of a future president of the USA in this way was "a form of political warfare conducted by the Soviet security services". Please note the WP:3RR rule. Pelarmian (talk) 15:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:FRINGE is mainly concerned with lending undue weight to matters subject to scientific analysis (i.e., psuedoscience), not political topics. Mentioning DfMRF does not lend undue weight, and it is plainly apparent that Gilbert's work is a minority (and indeed dismissed by most) view anyway.--Froglich (talk) 01:19, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:Fringe is not mainly concerned with scientific theories. If you read the policy you will see that it gives science as an example of where fringe ideas may emerge. Why would you want to include here a fringe idea? Does it claim that the future president of the USA was conceived as a communist plot? I ask you! That is so bonkers that I don't know where to begin.  Pelarmian (talk) 09:07, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

text: See Loren Collins's debunking of this conspiracy theory http://barackryphal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/joel-gilberts-dreams-from-my-real-father.html Why should it be included here? Reverted. Pelarmian (talk) 10:12, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Fringe or not, what does this have to do with active measures? Where is the active measure? Pelarmian (talk) 22:00, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Dreams from My Real Father]] 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:07, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: * Starting rumors that the moon landings were hoaxes and the money ostensibly used by NASA was in actuality used by the CIA
* Use of sympathetic elements in the press to libel the Strategic Defense Initiative as an impractical "star wars" scheme
Moscowdreams (talk) 18:06, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: I removed the following about KGB in America

message: Active measures have continued in the post-Soviet era in Russia. In testimony before the Senate Intelligence Committee hearing on the US policy response to Russian interference in the 2016 elections, Victoria Nuland, former US Ambassador to NATO referred to herself as "a regular target of Russian active measures."CSPAN, Senate Intelligence Committee on the policy response to Russian interference in the 2016 elections: Victoria Nuland testimony, June 20, 2018. URL accessed July 19, 2018
Lets discuss. Moscowdreams (talk) 16:23, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It wasn't removed, just moved. It's in the intro twice now: in the middle and at the end. Maybe one of those could be moved to the body of the article. Mobi Ditch (talk) 18:58, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Information removed as a conspiracy theory

message: Active Measures: The Secret History of Disinformation and Political Warfare Hardcover – Illustrated, April 21, 2020
https://www.amazon.com/Active-Measures-History-Disinformation-Political/dp/0374287260
This revelatory and dramatic history of disinformation traces the rise of secret organized deception operations from the interwar period to contemporary internet troll farms
We live in the age of disinformation―of organized deception. Spy agencies pour vast resources into hacking, leaking, and forging data, often with the goal of weakening the very foundation of liberal democracy: trust in facts. Thomas Rid, a renowned expert on technology and national security, was one of the first to sound the alarm. More than four months before the 2016 election, he warned that Russian military intelligence was “carefully planning and timing a high-stakes political campaign" to disrupt the democratic process. But as crafty as such so-called active measures have become, they are not new.
The story of modern disinformation begins with the post-Russian Revolution clash between communism and capitalism, which would come to define the Cold War. In Active Measures, Rid reveals startling intelligence and security secrets from materials written in more than ten languages across several nations, and from interviews with current and former operatives. He exposes the disturbing yet colorful history of professional, organized lying, revealing for the first time some of the century’s most significant operations―many of them nearly beyond belief. A White Russian ploy backfires and brings down a New York police commissioner; a KGB-engineered, anti-Semitic hate campaign creeps back across the Iron Curtain; the CIA backs a fake publishing empire, run by a former Wehrmacht U-boat commander, that produces Germany’s best jazz magazine. Rid tracks the rise of leaking, and shows how spies began to exploit emerging internet culture many years before WikiLeaks. Finally, he sheds new light on the 2016 election, especially the role of the infamous “troll farm” in St. Petersburg as well as a much more harmful attack that unfolded in the shadows.
Active Measures takes the reader on a guided tour deep into a vast hall of mirrors old and new, pointing to a future of engineered polarization, more active and less measured―but also offering the tools to cut through the deception.
Moscowdreams (talk) 21:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: active measures book

message: I restored this deleted source:
:Active measures have continued in the post-Soviet era in Russia. In testimony before the United States Senate Intelligence Committee hearing on the U.S. policy response to Russian interference in the 2016 elections, Victoria Nuland, former US Ambassador to NATO referred to herself as "a regular target of Russian active measures."CSPAN, Senate Intelligence Committee on the policy response to Russian interference in the 2016 elections: Victoria Nuland testimony, June 20, 2018. URL accessed July 19, 2018HEARING BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE OF THE UNITED STATES SENATE "OPEN HEARING: POLICY RESPONSE TO THE RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE IN THE 2016 U.S. ELECTIONS" JUNE 20, 2018
This maybe American propaganda, but it is well sourced American propaganda.  Please find counter-sources to balance out this claim. Thank you. Moscowdreams (talk) 05:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Already mentioned in "In the modern day" section. No need in lead. Aviartm (talk) 18:37, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: restored that active measures still happens today in Russia

message: A significant portion of what I added to this article was deleted by User:Diannaa 
The article in question which all references were deleted in this article, can by found here:
* Jolanta Darczewska, Piotr Żochowski. (June 2017). Active Measures Russia’s key export. Centre for Eastern Studies. ISBN 978-83-65827-03-6
Infinitepeace (talk) 00:06, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: A significant portion of what I added to this article was deleted by [[User:Diannaa]] 

message: * DFRLab Team, Operation Secondary Infektion. (undated). (pdf).
Infinitepeace (talk) 04:48, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: I added this article