Talk:Camp 1391

message: The Coordinates are:
32.4700523603, 35.0230741947  
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=http:%2F%2Fbbs.keyhole.com%2Fubb%2Fdownload.php%3FNumber%3D1165200&t=k&om=1&ie=UTF8&ll=32.470165,35.02208&spn=0.003847,0.005933&z=17
Felippo
: Added. // Liftarn (talk)
::Using a photo from a BBS to show the camp, while all news sources shows the camp was erased from maps, is a bad idea. Removed. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:19, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  What? Photo? BBS? It's just coordinates. You can used them in any mapping application, GPS unit or whatever. // Liftarn (talk) 17:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, the photo is hosted by Google, so nvm. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 17:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Please see WP:GEO. // Liftarn (talk) 13:10, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

text: They were given by Felippo above. They have been verified by using various satelite photos, like Google Maps. Also see Wikipedia:Obtaining geographic coordinates // Liftarn (talk) 13:10, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  How do we know that that is indeed accurate?  Anyone can pin Google maps.  I can change that pin to read "Kremilin" if I want.  Tundrabuggy (talk) 13:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually the coordinates go to a place called bbs.keyhole.com and a map that they have saved.  What do you know about this group and if it is a RS?  Tundrabuggy (talk) 14:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

text: If we get a consensus to remove it we may leave it out, but it gives pictures of the facility and that is missing from the article (altough I hope some time we might get a free photo to use). As for cooridinates you can easily verify that they are at least in the right srea (they seem to be slightly to the north of the middle of the area). // Liftarn (talk) 17:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

text: The coordinates can easily be verified so WP:V is no problem. // Liftarn (talk) 20:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: To where, that BBS forum? Well, if I am reading the sources we do have in this article, Israel erased maps that had this camp on it. I still feel odd using a BBS in order to cite something as contentious as this. So, I am also going to say no on the coordinates at all. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Zscout, what is a BBS forum anyway?  And were you able to source it any closer than the first page of that forum?  And @ Liftarn, what do you mean they can be easily verified?  How do we know those coordinates don't belong to a baby-food manufacturer?  Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:02, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A BBS is short for Bulletin Board System. I tried looking for other pictures and coordinates for this place, and the only place they keep on tracing this to was this forum. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 00:05, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Liftarn, the coordinates can be verified, but there is nothing that tells us that those coordinates refer to Camp 1391.  The marker on Google Earth was saved by some group on a BBS system.  I can go to Google Earth, find another spot in, let's say, eastern Poland (for example), name it Camp 1391, save the coordinates at some site (like the BBS one given here) and refer Wiki to it using the toolserver.  Tundrabuggy (talk) 14:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

text: I used some different coordinates on the top of  my talk page which moves it somewhere else. I can add coordinates to any article I want.  Do you see  the problem?  Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

text: There is nothing that says the coordinates for, for instance, Karosta is correct either, but you can look at the maps and see for yourself. I would also suggest that you do not change the coordinates to WP:POINT. We could ask WP:GEO for help. We have a description of where it is "It is situated in Israel's North District near Pardes Hanna, less than an hour's drive from Tel Aviv and close to Highway 65 between Hadera and Afula.". Btw, the Pardes Hanna-Karkur article has coordinates, but is there a source for them? // Liftarn (talk) 21:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This description was not in the article referenced, so I removed it and put in what the article did say, which was "on the main road between Hadera and Afula."  Not sure where the original description that you give here comes from. Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:04, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

text: I am not trying to prove a point, merely trying to help you understand why some of us here do not accept these coordinates, and trying to get consensus based on facts.  The location (by means of coordinates) of this "secret prison" has not been verified by a reliable source.  You keep insisting that because the toolserver will put it on the map here at wiki that it somehow makes it reliable. I would like you to understand the issue, but it would be nice if  you could  assume some good faith instead of suggesting that I am being disruptive. Towns are clearly on maps, and identify themselves with coordinates.  Again, it is an issue of a RS. You have no way of knowing that those coordinates do not refer to a baby-food factory and not a prison, by your own admission.  Tundrabuggy (talk) 23:53, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  We have some sources the question is how reliable they are. // Liftarn (talk) 20:28, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The coordinates stay out of the article. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:43, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why so? // Liftarn (talk) 13:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As I told you, I do not trust the links that are above, and the sources we do have, they said the place has been scrubbed from maps. It would be easier just to keep the coordinates out instead of trying to make guesses. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, the facility is not on modern Israeli maps. It is however on older maps (that's how Gad Kroizer found it) it is visible. // Liftarn (talk) 11:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Just for your information -- this map clip is from a 1:50,000 Soviet map from the 1980's titled 09-36-131-3 and the marked facility is labeled as "police post". This map is in several libraries' stock.--84.111.117.111 (talk) 16:41, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

text: The coordinates were already there; I just added the Guardian description of where it is as some level of justification given the disputes over including it. I think there is little doubt the coords are roughy correct. (They could be tweaked to the Tegart fort visible in the compound.) Rwendland (talk) 16:43, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coordinates 

message: We have a source for that no Red Cross visits is allowed  (or any other independend organisation) as well as for the demands to open it up. // Liftarn (talk) 18:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Than use it. That still leaves the Gitmo reference. It's still POV. Proxy User (talk) 07:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  More soucres 

message: Despite what Dr. Kreuzer wrote, there is more and more evidence to suggest that this facility is located in the Karkur Tegart fort, not in the "Meretz" one. The Meretz locality is presently in Kibbutz Hamaapil which is some distance from the facility.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.234.58.37 (talk) 11:54, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karkur Tegart fort, not Meretz 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Camp 1391. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060806195929/http://www.counterpunch.org/cook11122003.html to http://www.counterpunch.org/cook11122003.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:14, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Camp 1391. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160303180032/http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2C7340%2CL-3716489%2C00.html%3B to http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2C7340%2CL-3716489%2C00.html%3B
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:57, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified