Talk:Meher Baba/Archive 2

message: Whats the point of having this one person here in at all.I mean the mans just one follower and frankly is of no interest to many Baba people I have meet. Its not required to have some quasi famous person here to validify Baba. And anyway his life is not what I would like people to exemplify.
:Previous comment by User:Liam7. - I agree that the mention of Townsend should not become a big deal here, but so it is that up to this date Pete is one of the very few publicly known people honoring Baba's memory in concerts and articles. Historically his music and Tommy have made Baba known to thousands of people around the world. So it's not just "of no interest", encyclopedically at least. Also no one (including Pete) is suggesting that his life is an example of anything, and surely his mention isn't intended to validify Baba. Hoverfish 08:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also for the note added, some acceptable citation is needed. I will not mark it with a "citation needed" template in the article, as this does start making a big deal out of it. Why not ask for a vote instead? Hoverfish 09:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: My feeling is that the section on Townhend is already a nice compromise made after much discussion and after reaching a consensus of several editors. Originally Townhend was mentioned in the lead paragraph. This bothered some people as it made it appear that this was what Baba was known for. So after discussion the section was moved to the bottom and given its own heading for a good reason. To show that it is a seperate side-issue. It is also last for a reason. To revert this and integrate it into the article might have the reverse affect as intended. I went ahead and reverted the phrase that the section was an "abomination" as it seemed to insult the article (in the body of the article no less) and that seemed to be rather non-encyclopedic. It 'might' be an abomination. But it would be hard to call that claim a 'fact' about Meher Baba. Also, 'what most Baba people think' is also hard to give citation for. I hope this can be worked out here in the discussion page. It is a very good article generally and has recently been nominated for peer review. Abronkeeler 13:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I just did the request/nomination a few minutes ago. I hope I am not second to another request. I found no template or mention of any previous request. About the Townsend section, I accept that it stays as it is. I have a feeling that if we call for a vote, there will be no consensus against it. I have not studied the edit history yet, so I take it what we see here today is indeed the result of much effort, compromises etc. I am also ready to contribute here, whenever a peer review defines the points that could be refined. Hoverfish 13:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Here is how the article appeared when Townshend was right up at the top, before a consensus agreed to move him to his own side-area near the bottom. . You can see some of that discussion above. Abronkeeler 17:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry Liam7, but some of your edits do appear to be vandalism. . And a few paragraphs up you wrote, "when vandalism is just" at the end of your comment. Also you are not in a conflict with Hoverfish. There are several who have expressed similar concerns about your edits. Please do not make this personal. Let's all calm down and wait for a peer review. Otherwise take this up with arbitration. Chris 14:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Townshend 

message: According to assessment standards, the article is useful to nearly all readers and includes a good treatment of the subject. It should be peer reviewed, as it may reach GA status with some refinements. Hoverfish 10:10, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: that this peer review locates the correct percentage that Townsend had in the scheme of Baba vast and busy life and that this miniscule percentage be reflected in the content of the article. That is one line at best. Even as a percentage of Baba followers there should be tyhe briefest mention, only to placate the.....the....Who groupies. In my view he shoundt even get a mention. Its pathetic. --Liam7 08:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment as class B article

message: ::that this peer review locates the correct percentage that Townsend had in the scheme of Baba vast and busy life and that this miniscule percentage be reflected in the content of the article. That is one line at best. Even as a percentage of Baba followers there should be tyhe briefest mention, only to placate the.....the....Who groupies. In my view he shoundt even get a mention. Its pathetic. --Liam7 08:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lets Hope

message: I have been putting in material under various titles using my 23 years experience as a Baba lover and my research skills as an honours student. Its an ongoing work. References will be supplied. However someone is deleting this input. This is my latest contribution to Wikipedia:
Baba has stated there is either a 700 or 1400 year incarnation period between Avatars. In the current cycle of time, which began with Zoroaster 10,000 years ago, there appear to be several Avatars who have slipped into mythology or whose role has escaped historical ducumentation. Speculation about who was a past Avatar will continue amoung the Baba community in lieu of definitive answers. Baba's mandali were no exception in this debate i.e. Francis Brabrazon, Babas poet, queried whether Odysseus from ancient Greece, was an Avatar.
If this discriminatory editing continues I will be requesting a block on that person.
:::--Liam7 01:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Replies to recent previous posts embedded in text under Townsend title
It will not be necessary to request any block. Blocks are against vandalism, not against editors trying to keep an article free of POV (point of view) and original research. Any caring editor with enough experience should do this part. If valid references are offered and the additions fit and are properly integrated in the wider context, the article will benefit. If they are debated, corrected or moved to a more appropriate section, it's all part of wikipedia's processes. The above statement on avataric incarnations and Barbazon's querry have offered me a new point I didn't know in my 30 years of contact with Baba's messages and related literature. It may however prove to be harder than it seems, to make this information encyclopedically valid. Hoverfish 09:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: On Editing

message: In keeping with what Hoverfish just wrote I'm going to posit a vote, just so we are sure anyone who cares to be counted is. Let's give this at least 3 days before counting. Chris 18:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, consider Wikipedia's following guidelines on consensus and straw polls before voting. To vote, please start with # ~~~~ - Hoverfish 18:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: *If you want the Pete Townshend section to be moved to a sub-page and expanded, with a reference to it within the artilce, add your name below this line.
# Hoverfish 18:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: *If you want the Pete Townshend section to remain basically where and how it is now (In the body of the Meher Baba article) put your name below this line.
# Chris 23:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh boy where do I start to unravel this nonsense. Well from a non Baba follower point of view this is just plain nonsense. I can hear them laughing about the 700 tp 1400 year thing, from here. Real Wacko. You could only be making a little sense from a Baba followers perspective. But if you are taking this approach you are very basic, limited and arrogant by assuming that everybody is like you and has no inner contact with Baba, who I might add, has unlimited powers and can do anything, including establishing an inner contact with even a knuckle head like you, if he so wished. --Liam7 01:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note: There is currently an ongoing administrator investigation for Liam7, Imogen4, and Waylander.one under Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets. The vote should not be tallied until after this investigation is complete. Chris 16:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Call for a Vote on Townshend Issue 

message: Imogen4 and Waylander.one appear to be sockpuppets created on December 2, 2006 for the purpose of voting.   If so this is a very serious violation of Wikipedia policy. An investigation by a check-user clerk will be proposed at the close of the vote on December 4 as per Wikipedia policy on sockpuppetry in voting under the terms of Situation Code D. Chris 13:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I support the check-user investigation, this is a serious matter. Hoverfish 22:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sockpuppetry 

message: The blanket changes made by 203.26.122.12 (User "Hector"?) are basically vandalism. The "Hector" changes remove many individual edits entered over time. Each of these edits was documented, and most were based on the Peer Review the article recently underwent.
I don't particularly like or endorse these edits, but the fact is that they were made by a thoughtful editor in plain view with clear reasoning. A blanket reversion by 203.26.122.12 (User "Hector"?), calling these changes 'vandalism' and threatening 'measures against' the editor -- this is the opposite of thoughtful editing. 
Please Assume good faith. 
If you feel that my RVV is wrong, then follow good Wiki manners. Revert changes one by one if you feel the need. Explain your edits. Get a username. Use the discussion page to discuss your edits. --Nemonoman 15:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverting Vandalism by [[User:203.26.122.12|203.26.122.12]] (User "Hector"?)

message: Look I dont know Hector, he has a user name, but I read where people said he had no wikipedia history, was a sockpuppet and that it seems is why he didnt log on. But he made this clear. I have a query. How can the undiscussed edits made by Cott12 before the vote was finished have been changed without affecting all the othet edits he made AFTER the edit to Townsend.? Cott12 should have left this undisscussed edit to Ts last or not done it at all. That is the problem. Cott12 knew that his edit was wrong and tried to make it unchangable by putting a lot of legitamte edits after it. Very low behaviour. Hector acted in a straight forward way. Its Cott12's fault Liam7 03:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverting Vandalism by Cott12

message: Let's not get into an edit war. Please. If you have problems with individual edits by Cott12, please edit them individually, and provide some explanation, if not justification, for your reverts. If you don't like the Townshend edits, it's easy enough to change that without affecting the rest of the article. --Nemonoman 04:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverting Liam's Revert

message: Good point. But lets wait till three days afetr the first vote ends 18:01, 1 December 2006 which is the start of the second vote. This is up at 1801 hrs today. Fisrt one on after this gets to cull TS. Not before. Liam7 05:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears that you have a hair up your ass about the Pete Townshend section. I have retained your prefered verion of that section, and returned the rest of the article to the improved version based on the Peer Review. If you have problems with an individual section, I suggest you edit the section individually. I am not very pleased by your attitude, and ask you kindly to please act in cooperation and good faith with your editing colleagues. The changes to this article are viewed by many individuals. --Nemonoman 05:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: PS: There is NO provision for a waiting period based on a vote or any other deadline, absent the intervention of a moderator. I am trying to accomodate you, since you are acting in a childish and malicious fashion. I will not respect any additional arbitrary rules you decide to establish. This is not YOUR article, nor YOUR wikipedia.
--Nemonoman 05:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverting Nemonoman Revert