Talk:Welsh Dragon

message: Henry VII flew both the dragon flag of Cymru and the yale flag of Beaufort in 1485. That beast had existed as the goat-lion yale of John of Lancaster, regent in 1422. The unicorn yale of Jane Beaufort of Somerset seems to have been adopted by James 1 in 1424 as supporter for the Arms of Kings of Scots. As Henry VII had relied on Wales to win his throne (and perhaps to save his life in battle), then his choice of national symbols was crucial. If the Red Dragon raised Welsh militant spirits, then logically the yale was also chosen for that. Hence, the goat-lion yale was equally a traditional cultural symbol. And Scots would not likely identify with the Welsh symbol, unless it was equally a Scots Celtic heritage.
Dragon and goat-lion appear in Greek accounts of Celts. Echidna Kelto viper-woman was mother of Chimera goat-lion and of Keltos by Herakles /Hercules.- Diodorus 5.24.
Etymologicon Magnum 502. Partheneion Alcman 30. "Dragon"< Gk. drakon. Latin draco "snake". "Chimera"< Gk. chimaira "goat". Y Ddraig Goch evidently derives from  Homer's time and not from a copied Roman dragon-banner. Chimera lives on in UK Royal Coat of Arms, after 3000 years.
:The point of adding this was what now? If you want to discuss the evolution of the dragon in general from Grecian times to modern European times, then go to the main European dragon article. And explain how you get from talking about King Henry and the yale (a Roman creature with a Hebrew name originally) to Hercules and the Chimaira (a Greek creature who is only part dragon/snake and part lion). Also, "3000 years"? The Greeks that wrote down the legend of the Chimaira didn't live in 1000 BC. I don't know the exact figures, but it was closer to between 500 BC and 100 AD. The Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom shows a lion and a unicorn, not the Chimaira, which is (again) a Greek composite creature unrelated to the yale or the Welsh dragon. 24.14.198.8 02:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: We seem to have an addition about a 'new interpretation' of the dragon without anything suggesting what the old interpretation(s) might be. (I presume the 'old' idea is that it's a dragon representing a dragon...) The authority for this is an article on a website. I don't know anything about www.vortigernstudies.org.uk or about the author of the article,  but on a first glance it looks like a 'self-published source' (WP:SPS), and doesn't really cut it as a reference. I'm inclined to think it should be removed. Telsa (talk) 00:42, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A 'new' interpretation?

message: The page should be renamed 'Brythonic Dragon'. It was used by the Brythonic people before Wales had even formed as a nation. Also 'Draig Goch' as it is called in Welsh, directly translates to Red Dragon.--86.146.2.149 (talk) 15:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bad Rename? 

message: "is the most famous dragon in Britain." ??? that would need a citation - most famous in Wales, yeah, I could see that - but the one that St George mythically fights has to be very famous in Britain, too, since St. G. is the patron saint of England, the most populous part.  Des1974 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 18:05, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Most Famous 

message: Hi. I own a red dragon flag. It is basically the same as the present flag of Wales, except for its front foot, which is 'fully' in the green-base. I've heard references about this specific version, many years ago. Can anyone give me any more information. This is for an article Royal Supporters of England. Ta Steve. Stephen2nd (talk) 23:43, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another Red Dragon 

message: The Current Welsh Flag, was first used by King Alfred the Great, and is the Orginal flag of the Kingdom of Wessex. Now ask why then does the English Province of Wales use this flag?
Well the first recorded Dragons used as symbols that we know of, are Dragon Boats. Yes, Vikings. The Feared White Dragons.
The Viking flag, was a White Dragon. To Oppose.....the "English" Red Dragon, as it was known in it's day.  
As for historum Brittonium. Anyone who has studied this treatise knows full well it's instrument of commission.
The Current modern Wessex flag of Red with a gold Dragon, only came about with William I. Duchy of normandy is Red and Gold Lions. Hence, his flag told were he came from. And where he is.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.3.141.45 (talk) 11:18, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Current Welch Flag. 

message: An image used in this article, File:Welsh Dragon Memorial Mametz Wood.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale as of 27 October 2011 
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thread_title: File:Welsh Dragon Memorial Mametz Wood.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: A few years ago there was a BBC television programme about Welsh dragons as if they actually existed, filmed as a natural history mocumentary in the style of "Prehistoric Park" or "Walking With Dinosaurs". I Googled but couldn't find it. Would be worth adding to In Popular Culture if anyone knows about it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quantoid (talk • contribs) 05:53, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Welsh Dragons Walking-With-Dinosaurs-style 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:38, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: I added an example of the Welsh dragon in current heraldry, which was reverted by another editor as in their opinion, it wasn't "notable"... struggling to see why this is so (and why it is, for example, less relevant than a brewery pub sign!).  The same editor had undone the previous version, but with a totally different reason given.  So it seems it is merely offending their opinion, if I am honest. SkipsThomas (talk) 12:35, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: You haven't established notability for this particular example - are we going to include every heraldic shield with a welsh dragon in it?  It is used in a Welsh Brewery (not a pub sign) based in Wales - good example but we wouldn't add lots and lots of pub signs.  We have one possibly two heraldic images.  Adding an "an agnatic descendant of the Cornish descendants" for an Australian hardly seems relevant.  Although I assume this is linked to your recent set of edits to William ap Thomas which is obviously of interest. I gave you different reasons as you didn't listen the first time but broke WP:BRD and while I realise you are a new editor its generally a bad idea to make suggestions as to another editors motivations. -----Snowded TALK 13:42, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  reversions of added media 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:39, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: An editor has just chopped out a huge amount of the article in this edit: . I am unhappy about this because I had only just tagged some of the material as needing better sourcing, and because as per my edit summary, I believe the information is true (indeed I am certain I have read it) - it just lacks sources. Adding "citation needed" is appropriate, but removing true and long standing content merely because it is unsourced, and no one noticed, is not helpful. Because the information is substantial, I am going to revert it back in, or else reverts will become tricky if there are intervening edits. Pleas do ad citation requests and if they are unfilled after a suitable period then the challenged material should go. But please give editors a chance to fix the issue. Thanks. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:07, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. Will look to add cited content to replace. Titus Gold (talk) 12:10, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of poorly sourced information 

message: Welsh Gold Dragon and this page clearly have significant overlaps. I wonder whether it would be better to merge these two pages or leave them as they are? Some of the theory of origins and history etc. seem to have strong common ground, particularly the reference to "ruddy gold" origins of dragon which suggests a common origin of both colours. Thoughts? 
Titus Gold (talk) 14:36, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Potential merger with [[Welsh Gold Dragon]]

message: User:Titus Gold Did you intend to revert my previous edit on the reflist or was that an accident? Your edsum only says you are removing an unsourced statement. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Think it was an accident. All I intended to do was remove the non-cited sentence. Titus Gold (talk) 20:05, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok thanks for clarifying. Easy enough to put it back. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:11, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accidental Revert? 

message: :: Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:17, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Text was removed discussing Roman use of dragon symbols with the edsum: . User:Titus Gold, Please stop removing text whenever you have doubts about the sourcing. You should not remove text that is very likely correct. There are templates for this. In this case, please see: Template:Better source needed. Place that beside the material where you have a concern around the source and an editor can address the issue. If the issue remains unaddressed after a suitable period, and if you cannot find a better source, and if you have reason to think the information is wrong, then the information can go. The danger in the way you are doing it is that by sandwiching these removals in a large number of other edits, information that is factually correct will be lost. 
In this case the answer was right there in the source. Although the text cited was the Data Wales page written by John Weston, the author cited his source, which is (Lofmark 1995). A quick reference to that book turns up  the information and a bit of extra detail which I have now added. It is just a matter of actually reading the source. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:18, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: @Sirfurboy This is probably the only cited sentence I've removed in recent times. Other removals were non-cited. Titus Gold (talk) 12:18, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: So where there is long standing text that is probably correct but lacking a citation, please use: Template:Citation needed and for the same reasons. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Sensible suggestion, but as I'm sure you know, adding a "citation needed" is often not addressed for years, even decades. In future, I will aim to replace or add a citation rather than remove the text. Titus Gold (talk) 14:02, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The oldest "citation needed" I ever filled was something like 16 years old! But you don't have to wait that long. Just give it at least a week, and not more than a month or so, where there is good reason to think the information is correct. Cheers. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:13, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roman use of Dragon symbols 

message: Some evidence has come to light of the first modern use of the dragon on a flag or draped standard.
# 1840 Liverpool Eisteddfod; silk dragon standard draped over a chair (Jobbins, page 43); suggestions for an "order of Knighthood for Wales" and suggestion of a golden dragon drape, Carnarvon & Denbigh Herald 1, the report of the event cited a red dragon with a motto "y ddraig goch a ddyle gychwyn", Carnarvon and Denbigh Herald 2
# 1842 Abergavenny Eisteddfod; banners used with a red dragon (Illustrated London News)
# Ship Mimosa in 1865 (Jobbins, page 40), (Sea Breezes) etc.
Titus Gold (talk) 15:38, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: This page is specifically about the dragon. You might be better putting that on Talk:Flag of Wales. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:24, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fair enough. Titus Gold (talk) 16:24, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  First modern uses of flag and draped standards