Talk:Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg

message: Just a trivial, very un-NPOV rant: In the Die Meistersinger Suite, the harp and percussion don't play until about the 300th measure (about 10 minutes into the piece).  Then, they play for about 15 measures, and don't play for the rest of it.  Which is why, with a couple of punctuation marks, we renamed it Die, Meistersinger! :) Dreamyshade
*Why don't you include this in the Trivia section? You could say something along the lines of "Die M is unpopular with harpists because...". Although this is not quite as bad as the symphony (Bruckner's 7th?) where the triangle plays one note - right at the end of it.--Dogbertd 07:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rant

message: The word used in the German libretto for a section of the Master Song is "Bar." The synopsis used the word "bar" as if it were the English equivalent. But that's a false friend (or perhaps a false cognate). A "bar" in English is a measure--a much smaller unit. Each "Bar" in Walther's prize song, however, contains perhaps two dozen measures. In fact the length and intricacy of these "Bar"s, and the tendency of each of them to extend and develop the previous "Bar" rather than to stay constrained to a tame, fixed length and form is a issue in the drama. So I changed the word "bar" to "section". Hope that's OK with people. DSatz 20:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Act III synopsis, using the English word "section" for the German word "Bar" 

message: The section called "Genesis" contained these sentences, which I found somewhat overwritten:
"Although Die Meistersinger is a comedy, it also elucidates Wagner’s ideas on the place of music in society, on renunciation of the Will, and of the solace that music brings in a world full of “Wahn”. Wagner was always enthusiastic for his operas to be presented in the vernacular, so it is ironic that one of the central concepts in Die Meistersinger is a word difficult to translate into English: Wahn. "Illusion", "madness", "folly" and "self-deception" are all variously used to translate Wahn."
My only complaint is that this isn't really an ironic situation; it's a simple, common fact that a given word in one language may not have an exact equivalent in another language. Perhaps Wagner would have felt a bit frustrated at this situation if he had cared or been aware of it, but perhaps not; more than likely he would have thought that we non-Germans should all learn German, if only to understand his opera libretti. I can't imagine him hesitating over this sort of thing for one moment.
Also (though I didn't do anything about this), Die Meistersinger is indeed a comedy--but there's nothing unusual about profound ideas being presented in a comedy! So I really don't think that the "Although ..." construction belongs here. It really seems like over-reaching, like trying to sound "literary". The information presented in this article is excellent, and doesn't need to be cloaked in a "literary" style to make it good. DSatz 20:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. The irony - as I perhaps didn't express very well - is that Wagner wanted his works in english for an english audience, however one of the primary concepts in DMVN is a word which cannot really be translated into english: this is irony in anyone's book, but I did think when i wrote it that to call this irony would probably invite some comment. I know a lot of people don't understand the concept. I'd be happy if someone else wants to rewrite this section in a less "literary" style: I just thought it important to point out the way that some commentators have found the influence of Schopenhauer in DMVN. I also need to add a section on Barry Millington's opinion (ie. that Beckmesser is a Jewish stereotype).--Dogbertd 11:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  When a word is difficult to translate, that isn't necessarily ironic. 

message: The Trivia section now includes the following: Boogiepop from the popular anime franchise is fond of whistling the tune to the opera.  Would anyone like to say which tune that is?  The opera has, uh, several. --GuillaumeTell 17:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  anime reference 

message: People, can we make an effort to remove the Trivia section? The guidelines at WP:TRIV suggest that information in trivia sections should be incorporated into the main text or removed. Some of the trivia here is very trivial (eg. attempts to note every use of material from Meistersinger in films or rock music) and I think should be removed. Some of it (the section on Hanslick) should be incorporated into the article.--Dogbertd 13:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've removed the section and incorporated the relevant bits of info elsewhere in the article.--Dogbertd 08:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of Trivia

message: Reading through the article again it strikes me that we've used "Meistersinger" pretty much all the way through when we're talking about the Mastersingers. Take a look at the article introduction to see what I mean. The Meistersingers developed a craftsmanlike approach to music-making etc. Would it be better to translate this word - except where it refers directly to the title of the opera?--Dogbertd 08:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Master/Meister?

message: I've knocked up an article on the first Beckmesser, Gustav Hölzel, one of the (I surmise) few people who created roles for both Donizetti and Wagner.  Google reveals a reference to (I think) his complaining that some of Beckmesser's part was too high (does this ring a bell?), but, frustratingly, all that one can see is an excerpt from an article by Barry Millington in one of those journals for which you have to pay £10 for a download:    I don't have much by way of literature on Wagner, and I wonder if anyone here knows anything of the story, or has anything else that they can usefully add to the article? --GuillaumeTell 15:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The operissimo biography  has some more content. I can read German and I've added some of the content to the article, but you may be interested in reading it yourself.Singingdaisies (talk) 18:58, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gustav Hölzel 

message: In the article on Meistersinger there is a "Legacy" section which reads, in its entirety, "Richard Wagner, in his musical drama Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg of 1868, satirized the art of these early masters." Is satire the right word? Would anyone like to think of a better, and perhaps fuller, way of expressing what Wagner did? almost-instinct 19:08, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: From : is "The plot of Richard Wagner's 1868 opera Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg revolves around the guild of Meistersingers and their singing contest." better? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:08, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Very elegant, thank you :-) almost-instinct 09:43, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Satire? 

message: I see there was an attempt to put a controversial infobox on this article without any prior proposal. I think that was unfortunate. Personally, I am opposed to using that box. --Kleinzach 01:10, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. I see "trying" an infobox, following discussions on project opera culminating in "My personal opinion is that where a footer navbox is available, replacing the header one with the infobox is perfectly acceptable. It is also perfectly acceptable not to do so." (not by me) - There are hundreds of opera articles, several of them with a footer navbox available: I will not "propose" every single time that I replace redundant information by information about the specific article. A centralized discussion about the alternative is open. - Please be careful using "controversial", I prefer: perfectly acceptable to do so or not to do so. Back to the article: what's wrong with this specific infobox? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversial infobox 

message: I cannot see that adding language tags, such as   wherever German is used, really adds anything, since it simply parses as . Mein Leben produces exactly the same effect. --Michael Goodyear (talk) 13:52, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't see it, but people using a screen reader hear a difference (the program will not try to pronounce in English but German.). - You improve accessibility adding the language (any language other than English), do so generously! - Nothing special to this work, of course. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language tags 

message: At the beginning of the synopsis, we have:
"After a magnificent prelude, a church service is just ending with a singing of Da zu dir der Heiland kam (When the Saviour came to thee), an impressive pastiche of a Lutheran chorale"
Is all this description/explanation within the real guidelines of a synopsis? The use of pastiche could be explained elsewhere (it's not part of the STORY), likewise, though the prelude is indeed magnificent, such description is also not relevant to the story. 
Later, we have:
"David gives a confusing lecture on the mastersingers' rules for composing and singing. (Many of the tunes he describes were real master-tunes from the period.)"
Again, is this explanation of the origin of the tunes part of the STORY, or just editorial commentary that should be elsewhere in the article?
2001:558:6017:2F:D77:F234:843E:D734 (talk) 18:04, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synopsis questions 

message: I moved this out. It's uncited, but that's not a serious issue, it just seems to stick out like a sore thumb in the section. Ruskin's obviously a famous guy, but he's not exactly known for his insights into music (or much else by the 1880s). This is certainly funny, but does it add real content?:
:John Ruskin described  in a letter to Georgina Burne-Jones in 1882: "Of all the bête, clumsy, blundering, boggling, baboon-blooded stuff I ever saw on a human stage, ... and of all the affected, sapless, soulless, beginningless, endless, topless, bottomless, topsiturviest, tongs and boniest doggerel of sounds I ever endured the deadliness of, that eternity of nothing was the deadliest, so far as the sound went. I never was so relieved, so far as I can remember in my life, by the stopping of any sound – not excepting railway whistles – as I was by the cessation of the cobbler's bellowing."
It's just a standard rant about about how 'modern stuff' is all formless noise etc. Paul B (talk) 21:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Ruskin

message: I suggest to restore the 2013 infobox, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:28, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: done --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:15, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

text: Replied Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera, please let's have one discussion if we need one, - I don' think so. I like all Wagner's stageworks consistent, only completed what others began. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox? 

message: Substituted at 13:24, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018)