Talk:Kaymaklı Monastery

message: Kaymaklı monastery, is in Trabzon. There is no relation with other Kaymaklı's like as Kaymaklı underground city/cappadocia. My last version reflect these infos. For example no need to have link to Derinkuyu U.G.city/cappadocia in See also section. etc. Also I put some info about monastery; architecture,fresques, dates etc.To delete them and to fork here a baseles allegation is not suitable. Regards.Must.T  C  09:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kaymaklı Dab 

message: Yes, but you use poor english and delete other forms of information about the article. Can you cite sources for your writing? In honor of Jesus by John IV? Burned by Fire in 1918. Where is this coming from?
Hetoum 15:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You called a (possibly) legitimate edit a vandalism, I was referring to that. Lets refrain from using the word, let it be our WTA on talk pages :) If you reply, I may not reply (swiftly) because of my busy sechedule atm. back to work. denizTC 22:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: added a lot on this article. Hetoum I 02:32, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  expanded 

message: Makalp has continued vandalous edits I reverted them and made some minor improvements. I suggest he talk before editing.
Hetoum I 19:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to mention the Armenian genocide, we need a citation connecting the  monastery with the Armenian genocide. Tom Harrison Talk 21:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Akdamar is in Lake Van, this is in Trabzon, I am not even sure that Armenians there were subject to relocation/deportation. Also this is Armenian church, not a Greek one, so what is the relevance to what you call Pontic Greek Genocide which supposedly happened years later? Please don't do such things. Also, we need incline citations, are all these info from Sinclair? DenizTC 22:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I appreciate the link and citation. I think we would have a better article if we could add more, and more specific, references supporting how and why the monastery was abandoned. Tom Harrison Talk 12:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have put up a reasonable compromise version that I think combines elements important to everyone. Let me know what you think. Tom Harrison Talk 17:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Other than reverting to the version you like best, what would you like to change? Tom Harrison Talk 17:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: That makes sense to me. What else? Tom Harrison Talk 17:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It is not your article. I think it would be best to leave it as it is for a while and see what others think. I will give appropriate consideration to your opinion of my writing. Tom Harrison Talk 18:06, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, I think you are right. It looks like Amenapıgiç Ermeni Kilisesi means something like Savior of All Armenian Church. I cannot say this name was never somehow associated with the monastery, but we would need a citation, if only to see where that name comes from. Tom Harrison Talk 00:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I googled "Amenapıgiç Ermeni Kilisesi" which did not bring any result. However, there was wrong spelling in saying "Amenapırgiç" - Makalp missed the r. So, I google with correct spelling "Amenapırgiç Ermeni Kilisesi" which gave several links. All seem to be based on the Turkish Wikipedia version calling it "Amenapırgiç Ermeni Kilisesi" which doesnt cite sources. This is my reason for deletion of this name, as it seems an incorrect name was entered into Turkish wikipedia in the first place. Hetoum I 02:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Continued vandalism 

message: Dear Hetoum I,
*Please stop to add your political (unsourced) Pov's to the article. You dont have any info about Turkey( It is not a shame). Look at to your old edits; You created this article with one sentence with the aim of to add "Genocide" one more article. later-Old versions also was a garbage; Trabzon&Cappadocia together; Kaymaklı underground city and this monastery in one article etc. I created a dab page and made underground city and monastery in seperate articles; related infos and links to related pages etc. Please continue to contribute in positive way.
*I want to know the source URL of :Image:Kaymakli.jpg. You are uploader.Your stated; "Description: pre-1915 postcard", "Source: postcard", "Date: pre-1915", "Author:--", "Permission: none, no copyright" and your tag; "PD US". Ok. 
**Also for :Image:Stepanos2.jpg and :Image:Stepanos.jpg ( in St. Stepanos Church, Smyrna article) all of them also described by you as "Permission:none, scanned antique" and tagged as "PD US". Please supply your source info/URL. 
*Consider that to give false Copyright info is subject to punishment.
Regards.Must.T  C  20:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos, article 

message: Kaymaklı Monastery (; Monastery of All Saviours, ; Kaymakli Monastery) is a ruined Armenian monastery on the outskirts of modern Trabzon, Turkey. Originally founded in the 15th century, it operated until the Armenian Genocide of 1915, when the Christian population of Trebizond was wiped out.
This is the version I originally support for intro paragraph. I will try to justify why I support this over the present version:
It gives correct Turkish and Armenian name for monastery. I googled for right names Kaymakli Manastiri, and Amenapigic as Makalp said is a name. I find Kaymakli, but no google hit on Amenapigic. It is also not translated grammatically correct to name monastery a church. 
Next, current version says it is located on Kaymakli village farm, 3 km south of Trabzon. Is Kaymakli a village? Maybe it is mixed with Kaymakli village for Cappadocia underground city? Is it cited by Makalp? According to respectable website Virtualani:
The Armenian monastery of All Saviours at Kaymakli stands on the top of a hill to the south of Trabzon.
If Makalp can provide reference for proof of a village named Kaymakli and it is 3 km from Trabzon, I am happy do add, I will not make attempt to suppress information, I want article to be better. If he does, we should add this in body, under section of location, name, and founding section. I think it is best to keep intro section short and simple, and to elaborate in main body with specifics.
I also do not want to say founded in 1424 but 15th century, because Virtualani page says many conflicts on attributing exact date. General scholarly consensus for 15th century. We know only one chapel was built in 1424. Does this mean all the chapels were built in 1424? 
Next, I want to say remove this information from intro paragraph by Makalp:
"The monastery originally included a church with one pentagonal abscissa in the center, a bell tower at the northwestcorner, and a small chapel near the southeast corner. Frescoes in the church (dating from the 18th century) can be seen today. It was repaired many times in its history. Many of the buildings were destroyed in a fire around 1918."
Did Makalp make good faith to look in rest of article before adding this? Was there a detailed description of all structures on body of article? Yes there was. Intro is very brief, main part talks about structures. Did user Hetoum make good faith to research books and credible websites on buildings in compound? yes he did.
Next, I want to say, I was wrong, and we should keep this part from Toms version in beginning paragraph:
The monastery operated until 1915, when the Christian population of Trebizond was wiped out.
Tells until when operated, and under what conditions monastery ceased to function. Brief, more specific will be in modern times section.
:We might say something like, "A religious community was present at the site since at least the fifteenth century, and possibly as early as the eleventh. The oldest surviving structure, a chapel, was completed in the 1420s," or, 'completed early in the fifteenth century.' Tom Harrison Talk 00:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: *Kaymaklı Monastery means; monastery in/at/of Kaymaklı, like as; "İzmir Körfezi" (gulf of İzmir).Note;this is a compounded name, and compounded names are used as it is,(as "Kaymaklı Monastery" in this case)  can not be seperated.Otherwise they give no sense.
*Kaymaklı (which is the name of village/quarter now) ;is a unic name whic is produced from "Kaymak". Kaymak+lı means; with/include Kaymak. This village possibly known with its Kaymak production and so named with it. Note: Kaymak of Trabzon (Trabzon Kaymağı) is well known/popular product in Turkey also currently.
*In the light of these two above explanations; there is no relation between Monastery and Kaymak. Nothing is unclear.Must.T  C  11:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: and sorry once more for being rash earlier this is not me and hope you can accept apology.Hetoum I 22:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, I understand; no problem at all. Tom Harrison Talk 00:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  sorry 

message: Hello, 
I reinstated the reference to the Armenian Genocide because it tells how the monastery came to its fate in 1915. There is a term used to describe the events of 1915 - Armenian Genocide.
Other monastery pages do the same thing. See Akhtamar. Also note the term used as Dissolution of the Monasteries to describe the closure of monasteries in England. For example, the page  on Fountains Abbey does this, describing the term that resulted in the closure of the monasteries.
What makes this page SO different?
User Makalp maintains this is a POV fork. Can he explain why this is POV? I cited sources and described conditions under which monastery ceased function. How does this meet POV criteria? Can he EXPLAIN? 
This user has a history of maaking such disruptive edits removing references on diverse pages without reaching a consrensus. See his most recent efforts on the Pontic Greek Genocide page history and talk page. An inactive participant who simply removed info.
I also included a reference to Pontic Genocide(moved it under see also because it was clumsy) and Population exchange at the bottom referring to what happened to other monasteries and Christians in the region. It is additional info and not "POV." 
Hetoum I 23:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My most recent edits - Nothing POV 

message: No any political agenda is acceptible.Needed Reliable sources.
*"Monastery operated till to 1915"..Source??
*People deported from X, not acceptable,  baseless. Sources needed for people of Kaymaklı was massacred!.Bring sources.
Must.T  C  13:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ummm ... if you had said that you were going to use it for this place I would have been more specific about that info I gave on VirtualAni. The monastery operated normally until 1915. But at some time later Armenian monks returned, and there were monks there until the 1920s (probably until the population exchange in 1923). Meowy 20:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources versus political agenda 

message: I made some changes, please check that OCLC for Soviet Armenian Ency. is correct . Also, some (minor ?) info is lost when I introduced cite tags on "Further Readings" section (whose title we might need to change). I cannot access 'the map of Trabzon' DenizTC 21:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not good with translations, but I'll try to help soon, I am going to sleep now, it is 3:30 here. Let me first tell you that there is a book by Minas Bzhshkean translated into Turkish by Hrand D  Andreasyan, , I don't know whether the text is from that book. 16 books (13 of them in Armenian) by Bzhshkean are listed on worldcat site: . DenizTC 07:31, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

text: tried a few searches on WorldCat and Google, could not find it. Can you find its ISBN, ISSN, or OCLC? DenizTC 11:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA 

message: This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of September 24, 2007, compares against the  six good article criteria:
:1. Well written?:  The article needs to be reviewed for basic adherence to the Manual of Style, and sometimes suffers from a time bias. It also does a poor job of stating the obvious, and does not unequivocally assert the importance of the subject, historically and architecturally.
:2. Factually accurate?:  The article suffers from a common problem, which is that though it has a good amount of reference material, it lacks comprehensive inline citations. A citation to the end of each paragraph is the bare minimum, and inline cites for all facts likely to be challenged is recommended.
:3. Broad in coverage?:  Several sections need significant expansion. The lead is far too short, and does not provide a comprehensive overview. The article does a decent job of providing a basic timeline and run-down of the structure, but fails to adequately discuss the artistic, architectural and religious attributes of the monastery with clear historical context.
:4. Neutral point of view?:  Seems to be neutral.
:5. Article stability?  No recent or on-going edit wars.
:6. Images?:  Images are present and accounted for, but a few minor issues. First, it would be very desirable to have images that are truly free in license and do not require in caption attribution. Second, placement needs some work. Sandwiching text between images as is done in the Buildings section is discouraged by WP:MOS#Images.
As the changes necessary to bring this article to GA status would take in excess of the maximum seven days, I did not provide the customary hold period.
When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated.  If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a Good article reassessment.  Thank you for your work so far. 
— VanTucky Talk 03:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Failed "good article" nomination

message: Substituted at 21:00, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified