Talk:Douglas Ousterhout

message: Per the tag statement - you may remove this tag if you "object to its deletion for any reason" - the lede clearly denotes the subject is well-known and pioneer in facial surgery. A quick search found three books  , A lecture he did for the American Society of Plastic Surgeons  and this bio info:
"I am, and have been, on the boards of many plastic surgical societies, including being President of the American Society of Maxillofacial Surgeons (1994-1995), and on the editorial board of four different plastic surgery journals. I am on the Advisory Committee for "Recommended Guidelines for Transgender Care", AEGIS.
I hold staff memberships at several hospitals, including Davies Medical Center, Saint Francis Memorial Hospital, California Pacific Medical Center, and the University of California, San Francisco, where I am a Clinical Professor of Plastic Surgery, participating especially with a panel of experts at the Center for Craniofacial Anomalies. I have operated in many countries outside the United States.
Throughout my career, I have presented dozens of major scientific papers, both nationally and internationally. I have published scores of scientific papers. My medical textbook, Aesthetic Contouring of the Craniofacial Skeleton, was published in 1991." 
I see little to contradict this information and assert that a deletion before improving the article with regular editing is quite premature. Benjiboi 07:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing deletion prod tag 

message: Added advert and coi tags to article using Friendly. Reason behind this is edits have been made to this page by Mira Coluccio who is Douglas K. Ousterhout's office manager and business partner. Also involves talking about a former patient opening other legal issues which could be taken by the patient. Using Wikipedia to disclose patient information by a doctor or employee/business partner of that doctor could become a legal matter. Janemillert 06:36, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've rewritten the article to remove the peacock words and other inappropriately commercial material, provided a starter set of references and removed the tags.  If you still feel the article fails to meet appropriate standards, it'd be helpful if we could identify and discuss the remaining shortcomings you feel should be addressed before you simply reapply the tags. Msnicki (talk) 16:00, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

text: You're engaging in vandalism here and on several other pages I've contributed to.  It's obvious you're angry but your response is inappropriate.  You'll find another warning on your talk page. Users are anonymous here on WP unless they choose to identify themselves.  It is indeed considered inappropriate to self-promote or promote people or products with whom you have a connection.  An example is the cut and paste of all a Gary J. Alter's medical society memberships and every paper he's written, copied verbatim from his site onto the page you created for him.  But it is still allowable (as it has to be since editors are anonymous) for those with a connection to contribute to an article.  The test is, what did they write and is it properly cited.  As it happens, I do know both Dr. Ousterhoust and Mira but have not spoken to either in roughly 10 years.  I think that's enough distance. In any event, the editing I've done has been to delete the peacock words and other obvious puffery. Msnicki (talk) 14:44, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  adding advert and coi tags 

message: I have removed the Trinity reference as I believe it falls into the category of potentially libelous material.  It makes claims of possible malpractice that, if true, should be taken up in court, not fought out here on WP.  Also, I disagree with simply repasting the conflict of interest, advertising and other tags.  The puffery and peacock words are gone.  I took them out myself.  I have no connection with Ousterhout.  I haven't even talked to him or anyone on his staff in perhaps 10 years.  Finally, I disagree with removing the sentence describing what he does; the patient accounts make it clear both what he does and that he often does it in a single day of surgery.  I do concede it's worth citing his book in support of the statement that he developed the procedures in the 1990s.  Msnicki (talk) 16:52, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting several edits by [[User:Toddst1]] 

message: I removed 
:FFS generally involves advancing the hairline, making the forehead smaller and rounder, reducing the :brow ridge, shortening and narrowing the nose, shortening the upper lip, shortening the chin, narrowing the jaw, and reducing the :laryngeal prominence.Morrison SD, et al. Facial Feminization: Systematic Review of the Literature. Plast Reconstr Surg. 2016 Jun;137(6):1759-70. PMID 27219232
and 		
:"As of 2006 there were only about twelve surgeons in the world performing FFS."
as "not about him".
It was restored with the justification, "of course its about him, he invented the technique."  The first sentence can perhaps be integrated into the rest or the article with some minor changes, which I will try. The second I still think belongs only on an article on the technique.  DGG ( talk ) 17:57, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of sentences about the technique 

message: Please stop adding additional links to drofacialsurgery.com.  Am looking to see if there is some ref about facial masculinization surgery; if there is this should go in the body of the article; the lead just summarizes the body per WP:LEAD.  This is classic spamming behavior. Jytdog (talk) 02:14, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Found a surgery textbook talking about this, and added to the body in this diff. Jytdog (talk) 02:21, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

text: This edit does not "remove spam".  Reporting that Ousterhout also performed facial masculinization surgery is not spam.  It merely reports what he did.  I remind you that the man is now retired.  There is no possible way he financially benefits.  Please try to resolve the question here on the talk page.  If you have a change in mind that you feel would be helpful, please try to demonstrate that you have consensus support.  The claim has been there quite a while, so I think it's fair to consider it to have de facto consensus support.  If you would like to make a change, show that there is support for the change.  And that doesn't mean templating me with idiotic claims that one revert is an edit war.  Please try to behave respectfully.  I support introducing better references but there is nothing wrong with a WP:PRIMARY or WP:SPS to support a claim about the services a famous, now-retired surgeon offered during the time he was active.  Sheesh.   Msnicki (talk) 02:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: About your edit note here where you wrote . Please take five minutes and read the website. Here is the link.  Is that the website of a clinical practice or not? Jytdog (talk) 02:41, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The link has gone stale after he sold his practice.  Here is what it looked like when he was still active.  You should left the vulgarity in your post so everyone could know how grownup you are.  Msnicki (talk) 03:12, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: So you have no leg on the content, and so you stoop to digging shit out of redacted edits. Whatever. We appear to be done here.  In the future please take time to edit competently Jytdog (talk) 03:21, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:NPA, please.  If you're unable to control your behavior, perhaps another site would be more to your liking.  Msnicki (talk) 03:27, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Describing behavior is not a personal attack. Now you are just making drama, which is even less about improving the article than your prior comment. We are done here. The article is better now, although our relationship is not. Jytdog (talk) 03:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Gratuitous remarks about editing "competently" are a personal attack.  Per WP:NPA, Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done.  Please stop unless you're looking to add another entry to your already impressive block log.  Msnicki (talk) 03:39, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just fine with my block log thanks, which I am only noting since you seem to think it is some how "scary" to refer to it. You have nothing more to say about the content I take it.  Jytdog (talk) 04:53, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

text: I know he's retired from private communications with Ousterhout, himself, which I'm not free to post and wouldn't be helpful as an WP:RS anyway.  I suppose it's possible he offers an occasional consult but my understanding is that he is no longer doing any surgery.  Msnicki (talk) 15:17, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for clarifying that.  You know him; you should not be editing this directly per the COI guideline.  And you should not be making edits based on personal knowledge, as you know.... Jytdog (talk) 15:36, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: "Knowing someone" and having exchanged emails with them is not intrinsically a COI else no reporter would ever be able to write a news story about someone.  Please be more careful with that charge than you've been in the past.  I do not now and never have had any financial or other interest in his practice.  He has never paid me anything nor he has he ever given me any gifts.  I have never intentionally made edits based solely on personal knowledge.  Without checking the history, I don't know if I put the word "retired" or the original (stale) link to his site in there or if someone else did it.  I think it's common knowledge in the served community that he's retired but concede we may not have a source that uses that word.  My only interest is the ordinary interest we all have that the article should be an informative, helpful article sourced as well as we can, reflecting consensus and guidelines.  Please try to WP:AGF and avoid WP:OUTING.  I'm not your enemy and the aggressive way you've been treating me isn't helpful.  Msnicki (talk) 16:03, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

text: Clearly not an WP:RS, but as evidence of what I meant as common knowledge in his served community, consider the July 30, 2014 post about halfway down the page from Nicole Hamilton, one of his patients mentioned in our article, stating, "Dr. O just told me in private email today, "I am retiring.  My last surgery will be August 15 th.  I will be transfering [sic] my practice to Dr. Jordan Deachamps-Braly, a superb and very well trained plastic and craniofacial surgeon.".  Msnicki (talk) 16:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see your talk page. Jytdog (talk) 16:43, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not have any of those relationships with the subject and I do not need more templating.  I do have personal knowledge.  I do not have a COI.  I ask that we not pursue this further into an WP:OUTING.  This has gotten you in trouble before.  Msnicki (talk) 16:49, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: No templating and there is nothing even approaching OUTING. This is not about the article so I will not continue this here. Jytdog (talk) 16:51, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourcing