Talk:Indo-Aryan migrations/Archive 3

message: what is the relevance of the pottery section? The YV was composed in India around 1000 BC (Painted Grey Ware culture) -- the archaeological match may be very interesting on Yajurveda, but since nobody claims the Yajurveda was composed in Central Asia, the discussion of Iron Age pottery seems irrelevant to the topic of this article. Likewise, presence of Bronze and cattle (on both sides of the Hindukush) predates the IAM timeframe, so its discussion tells us nothing about the topic at hand. dab (ᛏ) 19:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pottery

message: This section does not seem to add any value to the discussion. Can this section be deleted?--UB 05:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I seems very marginal to me, but it has been given great significance by the anti-Witzel clique as proof of the unreliability of "Western scholarship". Surely it doesn't deserve a whole section. Paul B 08:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: the present wording is also completely unaware of the context. Nobody in their right mind would use the BSS as "definite proof" of anything. The context was, I believe, that after IAM had been established as likely for all the reasons discussed, BSS was quoted as the most likely candidate of a possible reflection of immigration memories in a "direct statement". I don't know the final verdict on this, but it is certain that nothing hinges on it. There is a fuller discussion on  Baudhayana Shrauta Sutra, which should just be linked. Since some acadmemic fuss has been made about the passage, I suppose reference to it should be kept. Although it is clear that the episode has more to do with people enjoying having caught Witzel making a mistake than with bona fide debate. dab (ᛏ) 08:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baudhayana Shrauta Sutra 

message: The following sentence seems to be a mere speculation.
:Elamite language, an extinct language of Southwestern Iran, has also often been linked to Dravidian (in a proposed Elamo-Dravidian or Zagrosian family); if this turns out to be true, it would even more strongly imply a more northerly former distribution of the Dravidian languages.
::Since it is not generally accepted that Elamite language is Dravidian, we should delete this sentence.--UB 08:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The early formation of political states also affects the distribution of languages. The Punjab was in historical times settled by Iranians, Greeks, Kushans (replacing Greeks and their language), and Hephthalites, yet Indo-Aryan languages dominate, probably due to the dominance of later Indian empires and states. Hence in regions where Persian and Indian empires dominated many languages died out. This process can be seen in the elimination of Saka and Tocharian languages through the influence of Persians, Buddhism (spreading Prakit language), and Turks.
--UB 11:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Elamo-Dravidian is a notable hypothesis, not mere speculation, but of course it can by no means be presented as widely accepted. It is pertinent to the topic of IAM only marginally, in as much as the IVC is brought into the debate (which is itself only marginally relevant to the topic). IVC is the likely locus of Proto-Dravidian, and assumption of Elamo-Dravidian settlement of the area between Elam and India seems plausible, and provides context. The IVC has some relevance as the origin of the linguistic substratum in Indo-Aryan, and a possible relation to Elam bears mentioning. But I agree the article should not be sidetracked too much by this sort of thing. I also agree that the second paragraph is too wordy, and it is unclear what point it is trying to make. It is enough to mention that the Hindukush is the classical invasion route into India, with a long string of known precedents. dab (ᛏ) 12:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Substrate influence 

message: Removing the hazy 'critics argue that the migration could have taken place much earlier than 1500 BC', I am asking myself why no reference is made to the Anatolian hypothesis: based on it, immigration as early as 3000 BC could be argued, all within a framework accepted as the main alternative to the mainstream Kurgan view. In an "out of Anatolia" view, the mature IVC could be presented as Indo-Aryan. This will have little chance of wide acceptance (chariots and horses etc.), but at least it will not be a crackpot view (like the more prevalent "Paleolithic Aryans"). I am surprised none of the "IVC must be Aryan" supporters are arguing along these lines. Of course we won't mention the possibility as long as we cannot attribute it to an author, but it seems the only way to piece together a halfway coherent argument to the effect. dab (ᛏ) 09:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That argument is discussed in Bryant. It is obviously far more plausible than OIT, but is not as gratifying to nationalst ideology. Unfortunately I don't have my copy of the book with me, so can't cite at the moment. Paul B 09:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OIT presumably means "[PIE] out of India"? I don't know of anybody suggesting this, and it isn't even mentioned as a possibility on this article. "Indo-Aryan IVC out of Anatolia" would need to be considered orders of magnitude more likely. Linguistic mainstream will consider Indo-Iranian separation as early as 3000 BC extremely unlikely. But another possibiliy would be Indo-Iranian IVC with Iranians migrating back west after 1900 BC: this would sit very well with mainstream dating of Indo-Iranian separation. Such a scenario would be attractive to anyone convinced by Renfrew's proposal and would need to be entertained at least as a possibility. That we don't hear more of this is obviously due to the nationalist side being not interested in honest debate, they want Paleolithic Aryans in 80,000 BC, and they don't care about anything west of the Khyber Pass :) dab (ᛏ) 09:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with dab that Anatolian hypothesis will be much better than OIT. Unfortunately, Renfrew is silent about eastward migration. It may not satisfy the hard core nationalist but most of the others who object to IAM will be satisfied with Aryan=IVC. Can we not include it as a possible alternate theory?--UB 09:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If Bryant discusses the possibility, I see no reason not to discuss it here. I think Renfrew himself takes the Proto-Indo-Iranians out of the Balkans in 3000 BC and moves them to Kazakhstan, so that his I-I story from 2000 BC is identical to the Kurgan one. Arguing for "I-I IVC" would require that some author says "no, Renfrew is right about Anatolian origin, but the I-Is migrated not to the steppe, but directly to the Indus Valley, which they reached by 2600". Thus, "Aryan IVC" is not directly compatible with Renfrew, but it could reasonably be proposed as a variant of Renfrew's view. Of course Wikipedia is not the place for original suggestions, but if anybody has argued along these lines, it would be desireable to discuss it here. dab (ᛏ) 09:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "much earlier"

message: This section looks a little long and out of context. It is not clear with this section is trying to prove. Can anybody help in making it more readable and more to the point? --UB 12:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Substrate influence 

message: I was reading parts of this book through Google Book and came across the following para on page 44:
:"Until very recently, Western scholars, whose primary emphasis and concern, at least historically, have been the origins of Western civilization, have renegotiated and reconfigured the pre- and protohistory of other nations such as India as by-products of their investigations. Yet for the most part, they have not been exposed to concerns over, and responses to their formulations expressed by the native scholars from those countries. India, in particular, initiated the whole field of Indo-European studies when it's language and rich culture were "discovered" by Western scholars. Yet opinions from that country, especially if in disagreement with the more forceful voices in the West, are poorly understood or cursorily dismissed." --UB 10:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's the principal topic of the book. Read it, though I warn you it's not an easy read, even though Bryant is a clear and jargon-free writer. It's rather a frustrating text in many ways due to Bryant's desire to put the best gloss on every possible point of view (though he draws the line at P.N. Oak). Taking views of Indian writers "seriously" should mean treating them in exactly the same way as Western writers, who also include cranks, nationalists and fundamentalists as well as unorthodox but genuine scholars. After all the Greek indigenists are no no more accepted in the West than the Indian indigenists. Paul B 11:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture - Edwin Bryant 

message: I've beeen working on some major updates and clean-ups to this article off-line, and I was wondering if anyone would object to my changing this page to use Harvard references with templates. It's effectively that already, since most of the footnotes are effectively just Harvard citations. It would also make it clearer which claims are being attributed to which source without having to click through, and would make it more obvious which citations are (for instance) missing page numbers or have malformed references. Actually, there are already several Harvard citations interspersed through the article, which I've been trying to track down references to. Anyway, if nobody objects, I'll be bold and switch it over soon. --Xiaopo (Talk) 05:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, go ahead.WP:BOLD . Bakaman Bakatalk 05:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harvard references 

message: I have given well ref. points for Brahui or Dravidian substratum points. Do you think that you are bigger than those scholars ? Regarding Brahui language , what's written reflects older scenario and newer scenario should be represented in the article so that readers get upto date informations. Same is the case with Dravidian substratum point. I have given direct words of against linguistics with proper ref. 
By continuously deleting well ref. points you are going against that any violation. If my ref. points are wrong then write on talk page but don't delete it one sided to suit your POV. WIN 12:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the points that I deleted were either relevent or well referenced. As for the Brahui, it was me who added the references to the recent research, in case you hadn't noticed (which, unsurprisingly, you have not)! Paul B 13:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brahui language, Dravidian substratum etc. modifications in article 

message: guys, you are not writing a book. keep it on-topic, refer to sub-topics by wikilinks, don't write entire chapters about topics treated elsewhere. The scope of this article is very narrow: what sort of case can be made for PIE migration out of India, when and to where did this migration take place. Please, it is enough to say that some scholars are sceptical towards the substratum thing. The substratum is not part of this discussion, both IAM and OIT work with and without it. What we want here are scenarios about how the migration took place, outside India, not phonological details of Sanskrit. Can we please stop discussing India now, and focus on the actual out of part soon? When did the centum dialects leave India, what route did they take and when, etc. dab (𒁳) 13:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: clutter

message: In the second para in the introduction states "Based on linguistic, archaeological and cultural evidence, most scholars have argued that Indo-Aryan speakers migrated to northern India ..."
The fourth para states "Archaeological data indicates that there was a shift of settlements from the Indus Valley region to the east and south during the later 2nd millennium BCE, but is inconclusive with regard to a preceding immigration into India"
Also, in the rest of the article almost all the archaeological and cultural evidence has been disputed.
So, I am changing the second para to "Based on linguistic evidence, most scholars ..." --UB 06:57, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction