Talk:Hyksos

message: I just unintentionally finished rewriting the whole article, I've realized. Please feel free to critique or comment on any aspect!--Ermenrich (talk) 18:56, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complete Rewrite 

message: This other article is essential another name for the Hyksos. It seems to me it should simply redirect here.
:I've been bold and made the redirect. That was me above as well, must've forgotten to sign.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:12, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: ...and it was undone! Stay tuned, I guess I may need to do an official merge request...--Ermenrich (talk) 17:20, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge [[Fifteenth Dynasty of Egypt]] to here? 

message: I believe that this image does not depict either Ahmose I or the Hyksos, for several reasons:
*The first one is easy: the pharaoh's cartouches are empty;
*The original source (http://www.scinet.cc) of the image does not seem to provide anything besides the file name "hyksos". Everything else has been added over the years by a succession of Commons editors. If the original source was unreliable, then any subsequent speculation should fall like a house of cards;
*I cannot find any mention of such a relief attributable to Ahmose, anywhere;
*I'm not an expert on this specific period but I believe that, from an artistic point of view, this iconography emerged later into the 18th Dynasty;
*An loose interpretation at the The Pharaonic Village in Cairo of a Battle scene from the Great Kadesh reliefs of Ramses II on the Walls of the Ramesseum.jpg old comment on the image's talk page claims that it depicts Ramesses II against the Hittites, and that the image in its proper context can be seen in Heinz's Die Feldzugdarstellungen des Neues Reiches, p. 293. I can't access this source, but I have no reason to believe that this is untrue;
To me, this is likely a loose interpretation of the battle of Qadesh depicted in Ramesses II's mortuary temple at Abydos (compare here ), possibly mixed up with other reliefs/battles referable to the same iconography. Khruner (talk) 16:37, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! After some research it does seem to be a relief of the Battle of Kadesh showing Ramses II against the Hittites (curiously inverted and rather imperfect as a copy) Ref. Thanks for the heads-up! I've removed it from the article, and I'll have it renamed. The actual historical relief is this one. The low quality interpretation of the relief above is in The Pharaonic Village in Cairo 11:56पाटलिपुत्र Pat  (talk) 18:06, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , I just wanted to say: nice work finding all these great images! They really improve the article.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:31, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , you're very welcome! It is an interesting subject. पाटलिपुत्र Pat  (talk) 16:34, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just obtained the page from Heinz's Die Feldzugdarstellungen des Neues Reiches and it matches the B/W image of the Battle of Qadesh visible above, to further confirm that the coloured image derives directly from that loose reconstruction for tourists at that Pharaonic Village. Khruner (talk) 20:34, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! पाटलिपुत्र Pat  (talk) 20:48, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Ahmose battling the Hyksos" 

message: Does anyone have access to Ryholt's full identification of Hyksos rulers? My preview on Google books doesn't let me see his final proposed reconstruction.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you tried changing the country identifier in the Google address? For example, change from google.com to google.it or google.fr or google.de or google.ru  and type the page of your choice after the segment pg=PA .... it can work miracles ... but not always ... some pages can remain out of bound पाटलिपुत्र Pat  (talk) 16:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

text: Otherwise you can ask at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request पाटलिपुत्र Pat  (talk) 16:19, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the tips! I've decided to put in an ILL request: if the information is in the chapter I think it's in, I should be able to find it once it gets fulfilled...--Ermenrich (talk) 16:26, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have bought the physical book ! Just ask me what you want !Iry-Hor (talk) 17:40, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, ! Perhaps you could check whether the version I've added to the table at Hyksos#Rulers (based on this draft User:Archaeobuf/sandbox/hyksos#Sequence_and_Dynastic_Affiliation, near the bottom of the section) is accurate? I'd also be curious whether or not you have access to von Beckerath's reconstruction, particularly the 1999 one (Handbuch der aegyptischen Koenigsnamen). The draft doesn't even give a page number for him, unfortunately. I don't think we need to include the versions from before the 90s - so much has changed since then.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:50, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  So Ryholt, who has examined the original Turin king list in details, talks about the reconstruction of the 15th Dynasty at length p. 118-119. He give evidence that only the later part of it can be read on the document as the earlier part (before Khyan) is on loose fragments who fibers do not align with the later part. He states the Turin canon only reads : "[Khayan / name lost] 10+years [...,(months), ... (days)]" on entry 10/26 (watch out, Ryholt's numbering of the rows and column differs from Gardiner's), then on 10/27 [Apophis name lost] 40+years [...,(months), ... (days)], then 10/28 Khamudi [...(years)...,(months), ... (days)], then 10/29: "6 Hyksos. They ruled 108 years [..., months, .... days]". This implies that 3 earlier rulers are missing from the Turin list owing to its poor state of conservation. Ryholt then details the use of the title Hyksos by the kings of the time, noting notably that Apophis actually never had it! (p. 124), while Sakir-Har did not have Egyptian nomen and prenomen. I am skipping the details here for the moment. P. 125 Ryholt give his conclusion: 1. Šamuqēnu ?. 2. 'Aper-'Anati ? 3. Sakir-Har. 4. Khayan Sewoserenre 5. Apophis Awoserre, Aqenenre, Nebkhepeshre 6. Khamudi Hotepibre. I do have von Backerath 1999 chronology indeed, I will give you the page numbers when I have access to my other computer with the pdf of the book.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:09, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Another interesting source is "THE DATE OF KINGS SHESHI AND YAQUBHAR AND THE RISE OF THE FOURTEENTH DYNASTY" cited in the article on Sheshi, and which can be found online. The arguments for the reconstruction of the early 15th Dynasty are exposed and various reconstructions are compiled. You may be interested in the following relative chronology, by Rolf Krauss in 1998 from early to late but without clear dynastic attribution "Sekhaenra - Nubwoserra - Khawoserra - Ahotepra - Sheshi - Merwoserra - Khayan - Apophis". Here we see another issue, namely how to relate the various names of the same kings. For example for Ryholt Ya'amu = Nubwoserra but Krauss does not go that far. You can see more of the problem on Sheshi, which is the best documented king of the period in terms of number of artefacts. To add to the confusion and to the debate on what the term Hyksos refers to, see "Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research (BASOR) 315, 1999, pp.47-73." where Ben-Tor argues that kings who did not bear the Hyksos title reigned concurrently with the late 15th Dynasty as vassals over the Delta.Iry-Hor (talk) 08:57, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your help ! I wonder how in detail we should go in this article... So far I've just limited myself to different reconstructions of the six (or I guess seven in Schneider's case) 15th dynasty Hyksos kings. On top of that all, I'm sure you've heard that based on new material Khyan is possibly a much earlier ruler than we thought (with his seals found in the same contexts as Sobekhotep IV!) and now they're talking about redrawing the whole chronology of the period, including getting rid of the notion that the 15th dynasty only lasted 108 years. It's quite difficult to wrap one's head around, particularly when none of the works specifically about the Hyksos has synthesized all the new information yet to give a coherent narrative and so much of the older stuff is criticized for wishful thinking/making assumptions...--Ermenrich (talk) 13:26, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:   Khyan's seals in conjunction with Sobkehotep IV is heavily debated and does not seem to hold much water with the latest sources, although unfortunately I forgot in which article I read the fiercest latest criticisms. It seems that the evidence is still overwhelming that nearly a century separates both rulers while the chance of intrusion in the archeological layers cannot be ruled out completely. I think the Hyksos article should focus on the Hyksos as people, and by this I mean the Asiatics who invaded Lower Egypt at some point in the late SIP. Debates about the reconstruction of the 15th Dynasty are important but only for the article on this subject (and you see why merging wasn't ideal). I don't see a better way of doing than to patiently present all hypotheses one by one on the 15th Dynasty... For the Hyksos article, we would need a section on the 15th Dynasty that is synthetic, perhaps clearly listing those kings that everybody attributes to the 15th Dynasty (Apophis, Khamudi for example) but also giving the kings that are being debated with explicit mention that this is not settled in egyptology. In any case, only a summary would be required for the Hyksos article, that should instead focus on their culture, influence, historiography etc. Originally I had in mind a bottom up approach that would have required first a thorough understanding of each king separately, i.e. a featured article per Hyksos ruler, starting with Sheshi (due to him being well attested, but restrospectively a poor choice as he was likely not a Hyksos....), but then I moved to applying this idea to the 5th Dynasty rulers. Concluding, I propose that your work on the dynastic reconstruction is crucial for the 15th Dynasty article (where I would say all details are welcomed) but not the Hyksos one (debate synthesis only). Once I am done with Pepi I and it gets featured, I can move to making Khyan featured to clarify things if this helps.Iry-Hor (talk) 15:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

text:  Thank you for these fascinating sources which I did not know. There is ample need for a thorough and serious discussion of these issues in Khyan's article, so I would be glad to move to this task after Pepi I ! P.S: I see that speak German. Would it be possible for you to translate a few selected sentences if the need arises while working on Khyan ? Iry-Hor (talk) 07:10, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , more than happy to!--Ermenrich (talk) 12:41, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ryholt's Identifications of Hyksos rulers 

message: I started the rewrite using AD/BC because that's what (I think) was here before, however I actually prefer CE/BCE and I notice that some additions in this style were made by other editors. Would there be any strong objections to changing to CE/BCE?--Ermenrich (talk) 19:23, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Support I also do prefer CE/BCE and I sometimes edit this way out of habit, but this normally works by anteriority. I would support aligning the article on BCE/CE as the more modern format, but that would require a consensus of editors of this page I guess.  पाटलिपुत्र Pat  (talk) 04:10, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

text: I generally check the initial creation and then the first entry for each year to see what the dominant style is.  In this case it started as BC, went BCE for 2005-2006, and was back to BC again by 2007 where its stayed ever since, barring occasional edit interludes.  I think at this point the bulk of 16 out of 18 years means the article is well established, and I don't see any cause for changing it.  (EDIT: Also, that should be MOS:ERA in my edit summary, not WP:ERA, in case anyone wants to reference it; I always mix the two up).  Cheers. Palindromedairy (talk) 06:19, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

text: Comment I doubt it matters which style is used, since they are interchangeable. Just try to have your version of the article consinstently use one format. Dimadick (talk) 15:59, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  AD/BC vs. BCE/CE 

message: Does anyone know if there's any way to acquire this image or the original it's based on for the article: it's in the result for this search, page 105:
--Ermenrich (talk) 22:40, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The source appears and other examples are found at  p. 135.--Ermenrich (talk) 23:05, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess the only way would be to make your own drawing, as derived from the original object, which is itself Public Domain due to its antiquity. पाटलिपुत्र Pat  (talk) 04:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  (if I may), I believe you've made drawings like this before? Might you be able to make one now? I have no skill in such things, and I think that a scarab that gives the pharaoh the attributes of Baal is a great illustration of cultural mixing under the Hyksos.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:35, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately I'm currently in vacation away from home, I won't have the stuff I need for drawing until Monday I think. I only have access to the first source, the drawing there is most likely as same as what I would draw. Is there the chance for the second source to contain a picture instead? Or at least useful stuff like its current location and/or some bibliographical references about it? Khruner (talk) 16:48, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Khruner, there's no rush. The second source also appears to be a drawing... I'll have another look and see if it's referenced in the text with a possible location.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:16, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , here's what I found:  There's a picture in the article (which I can send you) and it's footnoted to: .--Ermenrich (talk) 13:58, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  would you send me the full page? Now I'm curious. Sending you a hook mail right now. Khruner (talk) 15:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , done. References are on p. 126, image on p. 135 (Abb. 25a-c).--Ermenrich (talk) 15:47, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately I couldn't find anything with the given refs, so I'd stick with the first drawing. Thanks anyway. Khruner (talk) 07:25, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  sorry to keep you waiting. Here's our regulus, hope you like it. Khruner (talk) 12:31, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , a thousand thanks!--Ermenrich (talk) 13:34, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baal-Pharaoh Scarab 

message: I've just found that User:Archaeobuf, who has been almost inactive for the last year, has worked quite a bit in the shadow on the expansion of the Hyksos article @ User:Archaeobuf/sandbox/hyksos. I've left him a message to suggest participation, but in the meantime anyone interested is invited to check this content, and possibly borrow the good stuff if any, with attribution in the Edit Summary. पाटलिपुत्र Pat  (talk) 13:11, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh my, this will require quite a look through to see what can be added! Unfortunately, a lot seems to not yet be sourced, but I'm sure there's quite a bit of useful info in there!--Ermenrich (talk) 13:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking through, I'm sure there's some good material there, but it's very difficult to tell - they've definitely found some good images, but it's hard to track sources for a lot of the statements and many are missing page number citations as well. Just to give an example: most scholars assign Nehesy to dynasty 14, but the draft includes him as a Hyksos ruler. A lot of the sources that I can identify appear to be old and thus not take more recent reconstructions into account. Thus we have several reconstructed lists of Hyksos kings but none more recent than 1997. That's not to say that nothing in there is useful, however.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:36, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Shadow contributor

message: , you recently added a citation to a book by David Rohl, who appears to be a wp:fringe source. According to the book description:
The "Aryan theory" of the Hyksos is generally rejected nowadays (as cited to van de Mieroop in the article, it's related to Indo-European/white supremacist "conquering race" notions), and Rohl appears to be arguing for both the historicity of Danaus and the idea he was Hyksos. Furthermore, if you look at Rohl's page here, you'll see that he's pushing some alternative chronology of ancient Egypt and doing things like arguing for the historicity of the bible and proposing locations for the Garden of Eden.
I don't think we should cite him, but I don't know which part of the caption you've cited to his book so I would leave you to remove/replace it.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:54, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thank you for the information, I'll remove him (I have a second source for the same claim, so I'll just delete his ref). Thanks for the heads-up! पाटलिपुत्र Pat  (talk) 15:14, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

text: "you'll see that he's pushing some alternative chronology of ancient Egypt" We already have a rather detailed article on the topic: New Chronology (Rohl). He published his original chronology back in 1995 and ,to put it mildly, it has not found many supporters. We quote Kenneth Kitchen who calls the New Chronology "100% nonsense." Dimadick (talk) 09:54, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  David Rohl 

message: The claim that some scholars have suggested that Ramesses has Hyksos ancestry is currently cited to "Shalomi-Hen, Racheli PhD., "Introduction to Ancient Egyptian Religion", The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel, 2016." I have no idea what this is. No hits come up if you search it. Racheli Shalomi-Hen is a real professor, but I can't find anything written by her with this title. I think I may have run across this claim somewhere else, but it's not mentioned at Ramesses II or Nineteenth Dynasty of Egypt. It's clearly a rare enough assertion (and possibly something people said around 1900 for all I know) that I wonder if we should mention it all. I've looked around. So, two questions:
#Does anyone actually know a source for this claim?
#Should we include it if we can find one? Unless it's a well-known scholar and not extremely old, my feeling is probably that we shouldn't.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:46, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Anon edit . Not a big fan either if no better sources are available. Let's remove पाटलिपुत्र Pat  (talk) 19:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed it. If anyone has a good source we can always re-add, but it does not seem to be a common claim since I haven't been able to find it in any of my searches.--Ermenrich (talk) 12:46, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ramesses II Hyksos Ancestry Claim 

message: About the "Royal construction and patronage" subsection, it is just me or there is no mention of the Hyksos sphinxes in the book by el-Shahawy? Just asking, I've always had an interest in these statues. Khruner (talk) 14:10, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , they aren't called "Hyksos sphinxes" but the fact that the sphinxes of Amenemhet III were transported to Avaris is mentioned on p. 117. There may be better sources out there, I believe the other one is quite old.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:16, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh I see thanks, it can't be seen from the preview. I'll try to add something on the topic in the next days. As far as I know, only Apophis is known to have put his name on a couple of these sphinxes. Khruner (talk) 14:50, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: oh interesting, I thought Khyan was the one who did the most “graffiti” (in one recent book it’s called the equivalent of writing “I was here” rather than appropriation).—Ermenrich (talk) 14:59, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hyksos sphinxes 

message: Could someone who knows how create an archive for this talk page? At the moment most of the discussions are ancient and irrelevant to the current article or the rewrites going on.—Ermenrich (talk) 15:01, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Khruner (talk) 19:08, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving talk page 

message: In PLOS ONE "Who were the Hyksos? Challenging traditional narratives using strontium isotope (87Sr/86Sr) analysis of human remains from ancient Egypt"
Abstract
"A foreign dynasty, known as the Hyksos, ruled parts of Egypt between c. 1638–1530 BCE. Their origins are thought to be rooted in the Near East, which is supported by architectural features and grave accoutrements of Tell el-Dabca. In this former Hyksos capital in the Eastern Nile Delta, burial culture is characterized by a blend of Egyptian and Near Eastern elements. However, investigations are still ongoing as to where the Hyksos came from and how they rose to power. The aim of this study is to elucidate the question of possible provenience. We present the results of strontium isotope (87Sr/86Sr) ratios of human tooth enamel (n = 75) from Tell el-Dabca, focusing on comparing pre- and during Hyksos rule and sex-based differences. An influx of non-locals can be observed in the pre-Hyksos period (12th and 13th Dynasties, c. 1991–1649 BCE) during the constitution of this important harbor town, while the number of individuals already born in the Delta is larger during the Hyksos period. This is consistent with the supposition that, while the ruling class had Near Eastern origins, the Hyksos’ rise to power was not the result of an invasion, as popularly theorized, but an internal dominance and takeover of foreign elite. There is a preponderance of non-local females suggesting patrilocal residence. We discuss our findings against the current evidence of material culture and historiography, but more investigation in Near Eastern comparative sites has to be conducted to narrow our future search for the actual origins of the Hyksos."
Also this Haaretz article Doug Weller talk 18:06, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Should we add this to the “origins “ section or would it be better to wait a while? New genetics research always makes me a bit cautious. Even if in this case it confirms what the archaeologists have been saying.—Ermenrich (talk) 14:08, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  No invasion 

message: Gérard Gertoux has been salted for a reason. tgeorgescu (talk)  18:49, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Salted 

message: Must be something somewhere? 2A00:23C7:2B13:9001:4:A548:B7AE:B701 (talk) 02:16, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  What name did the Hyksos call themselves? 

message: , I've reverted your addition for two reasons:
# we have a statement that this has been rejected by scholars in the line immediately preceeding;
# your cited source is an unpublished PhD dissertion. While dissertations can be useful sources for some uncontroversial facts, they are not generally the highest quality sources. In particular, unpublished ones raise issues with verifiability.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi , I agree with your points. However, several scholarly sources do mention and discuss the proposed Indo-Iranian or Maryannu relation with the Hyskos; for instance pp. 55–58. Regarding your edit summary for WP:RS/AC, the statement added did not suggest any academic consensus for the Maryannu relation; rather contrary to it. While the source which I added before may not be of highest quality, but its author appears reliable. Given that the section already deals with the modern view of scholars over origins of Hyksos (and includes the ones now usually rejected as well), the mention of Maryannu, with academic consensus for it later is not violation of WP:UNDUE or WP:RS/AC in any way. Sutyarashi (talk) 19:14, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, so I didn't see that this proposed Indo-European relation has been discussed extensively before. Still, let me know what you think about single-line mention of Maryannu. Sutyarashi (talk) 19:21, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that you would need another recent source beside the dissertation to add that. And I'm not sure where you're referring to in Candelora, but all I see is him citing refuted previous scholarship, in fact exactly like van Mierop, only in more detail. The idea that the Hyksos were Aryan is associated explicitly with Nazi racial theories. I see no mention of the Maryannu.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: This is another recent source that suggests that Maryannu formed part of Canaanites who established Hyksos dynasty. The previous theory of Indo-European origins of Hyksos mainly connected them with the Maryannu, and that's why in my opinion it merits its inclusion. Sutyarashi (talk) 13:13, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but that source is about Thebes in Greece. When citing something, we have to be careful we're actually following what recent scholars who study the subject in question have to say, because WP:AGEMATTERS. If that source cites recent scholarship that states that there are scholars who still, in the 21st century, hold to this opinion, you should follow the citations to them and bring them rather than just incidental mentions in sources about something else. Otherwise, we have multiple sources that indicate that this theory has been abandoned and was at least partially motivated by racism.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:23, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually it is not about Thebes, at least not the concerned section. To be clear, I'm aware that the academic consensus is for Levantine origins of Hyksos. However, earlier views for Indo-Iranian origins of Hyksos linked them with the Maryannu who are believed to introduce chariots and horses into West Asia, and introduction of both of them into Egypt is connected with the Hyksos. This view, not doubt that now rejected like that of Hurrian or Indo European origin, is significant enough to be mentioned. Sutyarashi (talk) 16:33, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I'm sorry. I misread "Tribes" as "Thebes". Unfortunately, I cannot access that source. Can you quote the relevant text? If it's merely a recounting of a now discarded theory, we should really only add it as another discarded theory.--Ermenrich (talk) 00:19, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The source suggests that Canaanites who formed Hyksos had a Maryannu component among them. It would be rather long quotation spanning several paras, but you can access the book in pdf form here, or you can also search it at Springer's collection through Wikipedia library. Given that most recent sources don't support any connection between Maryannu and Hyksos, I think it can be added as a now discarded theory. Sutyarashi (talk) 16:20, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Indo-European connections