Talk:New religious movements and cults in popular culture/Archive 1

message: I disagree with the assertion made at talk:cult that this article must be referenced with the same rigour using scholarly sources as the article cult, because this is highly unusual for popular culture articles. Andries 19:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arbitrary section header 

message: Kindly take note of this discussion of three editors (one of whom is myself) at the Opus Dei talk page, here. I copy it here:
:I have just finished reading Dan Browns The Da Vinci Code, and have to disagree with the section on Activities and work about Opus Dei being depicted as a sinister cult. Only two characters from OD were mentioned, and even then they were conned them sleves into doing bad things, thinking that it was for the best. It is those two that were depicted as sinister, not the organisation. I am not associated with OD or anything in the story, but I do like facts, and as such I think the section on The Da Vinci Code should be re written slightly. But, as many people have said before, this is only my view...
:Kindly check this out: opus dei and da vinci and catholic answers. I have not read the book myself, so kindly help disentagle the issue. Thanks. :) Thomas S. Major 04:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't even agree that "two" characters are described as sinister. One is portraied as fanatically devout and misguided simpleton who was deceived into commiting murders, which eventually result in accidental death of his mentor who specically tell this simpleton not to resort to revenge for his death. My guess is that most Opus Dei members or for that matter Catholic haven't read the book. And lastly, the book was so s£$%, I want my money back. FWBOarticle 11:39, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opus Dei 

message: Ive tagged the section as POV since it is too loose in its distinction between the fictional characters in the story and having Mormons referred to "cults in literature." BabyDweezil 00:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The section adequately attributes the information directly to the source itself.  Smee 00:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The interpretion that this book represents anything to do with "cults in literature" is entirely the POV of whoever added this. One would have to find a WP:RS that describes this book as being literature about "cults." BabyDweezil 15:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As the source is attributed within the article, rather than simply cited, this avoids this problem entirely.  Smee 22:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The source does not in anyway verify the POV inclusion of this book in an artcile about "cults in literature", since the author does not mention cults. Thus it is original research representing the POV that this book discusses cults--a claim which is UNSOURCED.BabyDweezil 22:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, it is not OR, because it is a secondary source, not a primary source.  And the book was written in 1912 - when many did believe the group contained these qualities.  Smee 03:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No its the book that being discussed--of course its a primary source--a secondary source would say Grey characterized the Mormons as a cult. And your opinions of what "many did believe" are just your POV. Find a source to back it up. BabyDweezil 04:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Riders of the Purple sage 

message: This clearly distorted and unsourced claim has been removed. This is an article about literature, anyway. BabyDweezil 04:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wilhelm Reich did not start a psychotherapy cult 

message: A "Growing Up Gotti" episode in 2005 featured a Social Therapist (follower of Fred Newman and Lenora Fulani) intervening in the family problems of Victoria Gotti and her teenage sons.---a social therapist is not a cultist nor did the show portray the therapist as a cultist. BabyDweezil 21:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another inappropriate inclusion 

message: Citing groups as cults here is POV, for example mentioning Scientology etc. at the end of the article. I have added a NPOV template until this has been discussed/resolved. Sfacets 00:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for adding the NPOV tag.  However the issue here is not one of classification, merely as referenced by popular culture, literature over time.  Smee 04:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So why is Scientology (just one example) being given as an example re the Southpark episode? Does the episode mention that the group is a cult? Sfacets 04:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps the article title should be moved to: "Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture".  I will do so.  Smee 05:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesnt matter--inclusion without citing secondary sources makes it entirely POV and original research. BabyDweezil 22:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it does not.  We are not going to always find instances where something refers to a cult or new religious movement in popular culture, and directly afterwards, a secondary sources states:  "This was a reference to Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture."  That is simply silly.  Smee 22:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: This article cites no secondary sources to support claims of any of this being examples of "Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture." The article is entirely original research and POV. BabyDweezil 17:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The name of the article has been changed in order to be more inclusionary and accomodating to those who object to the term "cult".  Smee 22:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless you have a secondary source stating that any particular work is an example of "Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture", it is original research and the inclusion is entirely arbitrary. BabyDweezil 22:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: So anyone can claim whatever they want, for instance, the entirely bogus claim that Wilhelm Reich started a therapy cult? BabyDweezil 22:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You may wish to add the "citation needed"  tag, instead of simply removing whole sections of an article without consensus.  Smee 22:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Editors of popular culture articles have the same burden. as it pertains to sources, as any other article when material is challenged. See WP:ATT ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is untrue. If you believe otherwise then please start deleting half of Wikipedia. Andries 21:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The argument to the effect of "if X (citing a particular, standard guideline such as WP:ATT) is true then you have to delete half of Wikipedia" has always struck me as a bit fishy. BabyDweezil 21:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: You are not a newebie, Andries, so I am surprised by your comment.  You know that if any an challenges any material in any article on the basis of lack of sources, the burden to provide sources is on the editor wanting to keep that material, not on the one wanting to delete it. From WP:ATT and WP:V: Editors should provide attribution for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. The burden of evidence lies with the editor wishing to add or retain the material. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: And why not replace them with  in specific places where certain editors have issues?  Compare to Religion in The Simpsons, where there are almost no citations at all.  Or all of the "Trivia" section from The Joy of Sect.  (Also a pop culture reference style article...)  I maintain that with literary popular culture references, the standards are often not the same.  Adding  tags would be a more neutral way to go...  Smee 06:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pop culture articles do not have a special set of policies. If not challenged, these articles may remain un-sourced and unattributed for years to come. But the moment that a challenge is made, WP:V (or the new WP:ATT) kicks immediately in. As for your proposal to add  to the specific places, I do not thing that it is possible, Smee.  Almost all sentences are either OR or are not attributed to a reliable published source. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, that is your opinion.  The fact of the matter is, most sentences refer, in one way or another, to the actual source they are talking about.  There is just no formal "citation" afterwards.  This is an easy remedy, just a tedious one that will take time.  Thus the need for citation tags, and not obtrusive label headings...  Smee 10:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No Smee, that is not my opinion, but Wikipedia's official policy. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: No, they refer to the subject being discussed, but they do not refer to a secondary source that verifies the claim that this is an example of cults in literature or culture. I can't say "Harry Potter is an example of Satanism in literature" and use a Harry Potter book as a source. Refer to WP:RS. So citing the example your talking about as a source will not be sufficient--that simply makes this an original research essay, and needs to be tagged as such. BabyDweezil 13:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a very silly argument.  See The Joy of Sect, the section on "Cultural References".  Every single example is not backed up by a secondary source - in certain cases the example itself is self-explanatory.  In any event, more citations will be provided.  Smee 14:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Before you make offensive remarks and call my explanations "silly," please note that this article is called "Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture" and NOT the name of a particular specified work like the "Joy of Sects." Thus, you cannot include specific works in the category simply based on your own interpretation of which one is a cult and which one is an example of cults in literature. So spare me your incessant condescending remarks and refer instead to WP:RS and WP:V. BabyDweezil 14:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will not respond to uncivil language and violations of Wikipedia:No Personal Attacks.  Smee 14:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Entirely POV and Original Research 

message: The article currently has the following sentence:
A "Growing Up Gotti" episode in 2005 featured a Social Therapist (follower of Fred Newman and Lenora Fulani) intervening in the family problems of Victoria Gotti and her teenage sons.
''
No source is given that indicates that this is an example of "Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture," but instead is a labeling of an unnamed living individual who is characteried as a "follower" of two named living individuals as cultists. This is in violation of WP:BLP and I will remove it unless someone can provide a reliable source indicating that this episode is an example of "Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture." BabyDweezil 15:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If anything, it would be a reference to a fictional "Fred Newman and Lenora Fulani", and would thus not be a violation of WP:BLP, but rather something that falls within the perfectly acceptable realm of satire and parody.  Smee 15:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: There was consensus to create the article initially from a discussion on the talkpage of the Cult article.  Smee 15:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fred Newman and Lenora Fulani are not mentioned in the TV show, satirically, or otherwise; they are mentioned in this article, and clearly not as "fictional characters.". I'm not at all following the line of argumentation. BabyDweezil 15:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, just because something appears on this article, does not mean it is classified as anything, just that it has appeared in the discussion of "Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture", in the general public space.  Smee 15:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am totally not following your explanation. Putting it in an article called ""Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture" would mean its being given as an example of ""Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture." What else could it possibly mean to include it in the article?BabyDweezil 16:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but inclusion in such an article does not denote something in particular as a "cult", rather simply as part of the relevant discussion in popular culture.  Smee 16:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then there is no reason to put it in the article, and per WP:BLP, it is being removed since it is implying these individuals are cultists by its inclusion. BabyDweezil 16:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: It is not implying that anyone is "cultist" that is your opinion.  If you read the material it merely states that the therapist was a follower of their methodologies.  Smee 16:26, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If there is no implication that anyone is a cultist, then why is it in this article? BabyDweezil 16:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:BLP]] issue 

message: I disagree with the assertion made at talk:cult that this article must be referenced with the same rigour using scholarly sources as the article cult, because this is highly unusual for popular culture articles. Andries 19:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arbitrary section header 

message: Kindly take note of this discussion of three editors (one of whom is myself) at the Opus Dei talk page, here. I copy it here:
:I have just finished reading Dan Browns The Da Vinci Code, and have to disagree with the section on Activities and work about Opus Dei being depicted as a sinister cult. Only two characters from OD were mentioned, and even then they were conned them sleves into doing bad things, thinking that it was for the best. It is those two that were depicted as sinister, not the organisation. I am not associated with OD or anything in the story, but I do like facts, and as such I think the section on The Da Vinci Code should be re written slightly. But, as many people have said before, this is only my view...
:Kindly check this out: opus dei and da vinci and catholic answers. I have not read the book myself, so kindly help disentagle the issue. Thanks. :) Thomas S. Major 04:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't even agree that "two" characters are described as sinister. One is portraied as fanatically devout and misguided simpleton who was deceived into commiting murders, which eventually result in accidental death of his mentor who specically tell this simpleton not to resort to revenge for his death. My guess is that most Opus Dei members or for that matter Catholic haven't read the book. And lastly, the book was so s£$%, I want my money back. FWBOarticle 11:39, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opus Dei 

message: Ive tagged the section as POV since it is too loose in its distinction between the fictional characters in the story and having Mormons referred to "cults in literature." BabyDweezil 00:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The section adequately attributes the information directly to the source itself.  Smee 00:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The interpretion that this book represents anything to do with "cults in literature" is entirely the POV of whoever added this. One would have to find a WP:RS that describes this book as being literature about "cults." BabyDweezil 15:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As the source is attributed within the article, rather than simply cited, this avoids this problem entirely.  Smee 22:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The source does not in anyway verify the POV inclusion of this book in an artcile about "cults in literature", since the author does not mention cults. Thus it is original research representing the POV that this book discusses cults--a claim which is UNSOURCED.BabyDweezil 22:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, it is not OR, because it is a secondary source, not a primary source.  And the book was written in 1912 - when many did believe the group contained these qualities.  Smee 03:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No its the book that being discussed--of course its a primary source--a secondary source would say Grey characterized the Mormons as a cult. And your opinions of what "many did believe" are just your POV. Find a source to back it up. BabyDweezil 04:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Riders of the Purple sage 

message: This clearly distorted and unsourced claim has been removed. This is an article about literature, anyway. BabyDweezil 04:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wilhelm Reich did not start a psychotherapy cult 

message: A "Growing Up Gotti" episode in 2005 featured a Social Therapist (follower of Fred Newman and Lenora Fulani) intervening in the family problems of Victoria Gotti and her teenage sons.---a social therapist is not a cultist nor did the show portray the therapist as a cultist. BabyDweezil 21:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another inappropriate inclusion 

message: Citing groups as cults here is POV, for example mentioning Scientology etc. at the end of the article. I have added a NPOV template until this has been discussed/resolved. Sfacets 00:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for adding the NPOV tag.  However the issue here is not one of classification, merely as referenced by popular culture, literature over time.  Smee 04:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So why is Scientology (just one example) being given as an example re the Southpark episode? Does the episode mention that the group is a cult? Sfacets 04:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps the article title should be moved to: "Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture".  I will do so.  Smee 05:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesnt matter--inclusion without citing secondary sources makes it entirely POV and original research. BabyDweezil 22:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it does not.  We are not going to always find instances where something refers to a cult or new religious movement in popular culture, and directly afterwards, a secondary sources states:  "This was a reference to Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture."  That is simply silly.  Smee 22:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: This article cites no secondary sources to support claims of any of this being examples of "Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture." The article is entirely original research and POV. BabyDweezil 17:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The name of the article has been changed in order to be more inclusionary and accomodating to those who object to the term "cult".  Smee 22:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless you have a secondary source stating that any particular work is an example of "Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture", it is original research and the inclusion is entirely arbitrary. BabyDweezil 22:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: So anyone can claim whatever they want, for instance, the entirely bogus claim that Wilhelm Reich started a therapy cult? BabyDweezil 22:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You may wish to add the "citation needed"  tag, instead of simply removing whole sections of an article without consensus.  Smee 22:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Editors of popular culture articles have the same burden. as it pertains to sources, as any other article when material is challenged. See WP:ATT ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is untrue. If you believe otherwise then please start deleting half of Wikipedia. Andries 21:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The argument to the effect of "if X (citing a particular, standard guideline such as WP:ATT) is true then you have to delete half of Wikipedia" has always struck me as a bit fishy. BabyDweezil 21:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: You are not a newebie, Andries, so I am surprised by your comment.  You know that if any an challenges any material in any article on the basis of lack of sources, the burden to provide sources is on the editor wanting to keep that material, not on the one wanting to delete it. From WP:ATT and WP:V: Editors should provide attribution for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. The burden of evidence lies with the editor wishing to add or retain the material. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: And why not replace them with  in specific places where certain editors have issues?  Compare to Religion in The Simpsons, where there are almost no citations at all.  Or all of the "Trivia" section from The Joy of Sect.  (Also a pop culture reference style article...)  I maintain that with literary popular culture references, the standards are often not the same.  Adding  tags would be a more neutral way to go...  Smee 06:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pop culture articles do not have a special set of policies. If not challenged, these articles may remain un-sourced and unattributed for years to come. But the moment that a challenge is made, WP:V (or the new WP:ATT) kicks immediately in. As for your proposal to add  to the specific places, I do not thing that it is possible, Smee.  Almost all sentences are either OR or are not attributed to a reliable published source. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, that is your opinion.  The fact of the matter is, most sentences refer, in one way or another, to the actual source they are talking about.  There is just no formal "citation" afterwards.  This is an easy remedy, just a tedious one that will take time.  Thus the need for citation tags, and not obtrusive label headings...  Smee 10:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No Smee, that is not my opinion, but Wikipedia's official policy. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: No, they refer to the subject being discussed, but they do not refer to a secondary source that verifies the claim that this is an example of cults in literature or culture. I can't say "Harry Potter is an example of Satanism in literature" and use a Harry Potter book as a source. Refer to WP:RS. So citing the example your talking about as a source will not be sufficient--that simply makes this an original research essay, and needs to be tagged as such. BabyDweezil 13:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a very silly argument.  See The Joy of Sect, the section on "Cultural References".  Every single example is not backed up by a secondary source - in certain cases the example itself is self-explanatory.  In any event, more citations will be provided.  Smee 14:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Before you make offensive remarks and call my explanations "silly," please note that this article is called "Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture" and NOT the name of a particular specified work like the "Joy of Sects." Thus, you cannot include specific works in the category simply based on your own interpretation of which one is a cult and which one is an example of cults in literature. So spare me your incessant condescending remarks and refer instead to WP:RS and WP:V. BabyDweezil 14:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will not respond to uncivil language and violations of Wikipedia:No Personal Attacks.  Smee 14:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Entirely POV and Original Research 

message: The article currently has the following sentence:
A "Growing Up Gotti" episode in 2005 featured a Social Therapist (follower of Fred Newman and Lenora Fulani) intervening in the family problems of Victoria Gotti and her teenage sons.
''
No source is given that indicates that this is an example of "Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture," but instead is a labeling of an unnamed living individual who is characteried as a "follower" of two named living individuals as cultists. This is in violation of WP:BLP and I will remove it unless someone can provide a reliable source indicating that this episode is an example of "Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture." BabyDweezil 15:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If anything, it would be a reference to a fictional "Fred Newman and Lenora Fulani", and would thus not be a violation of WP:BLP, but rather something that falls within the perfectly acceptable realm of satire and parody.  Smee 15:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: There was consensus to create the article initially from a discussion on the talkpage of the Cult article.  Smee 15:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fred Newman and Lenora Fulani are not mentioned in the TV show, satirically, or otherwise; they are mentioned in this article, and clearly not as "fictional characters.". I'm not at all following the line of argumentation. BabyDweezil 15:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, just because something appears on this article, does not mean it is classified as anything, just that it has appeared in the discussion of "Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture", in the general public space.  Smee 15:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am totally not following your explanation. Putting it in an article called ""Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture" would mean its being given as an example of ""Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture." What else could it possibly mean to include it in the article?BabyDweezil 16:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but inclusion in such an article does not denote something in particular as a "cult", rather simply as part of the relevant discussion in popular culture.  Smee 16:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then there is no reason to put it in the article, and per WP:BLP, it is being removed since it is implying these individuals are cultists by its inclusion. BabyDweezil 16:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: It is not implying that anyone is "cultist" that is your opinion.  If you read the material it merely states that the therapist was a follower of their methodologies.  Smee 16:26, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If there is no implication that anyone is a cultist, then why is it in this article? BabyDweezil 16:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:BLP]] issue 

message: I have placed the article in AfD, given the lack of willingness to cleanup this article from OR and the lack of sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The result of the AFD was no consensus, see above.  Smee 15:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  AFD 

message: Holy Smoke! starring kate Winslet ? See CESNUR article about it. Andries 18:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good addition to me, there are even plenty of sources for it...  Smee 18:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can we add [[Holy Smoke!]]? 

message: The first sentence of the paragraph on major figures (Blavatsky, etc.) had been moved to the last sentence of the previous paragraph about NRM/cult leaders as novelists, poets, etc. This gave a false impression, since most of the people in this paragraph never had broad cultural influence comparable to that of 
Blavatsky and Reich. I deleted this sentence rather than restoring it to the correct paragraph, since a subhead had been added making clear the topic of the Blavatsky et al. section. Also I restored the sentence in the section on NRM/cult leaders as novelists, poets, etc. referring to Fred Newman, founder of social therapy, but called it "social therapy" instead of the "social therapy cult". I would be surprised if Newman would continue to object to his "Sally and Tom" being listed in the same breath with works of the caliber of Eli Siegel's "Hot Afternoons Have Been in Montana" and Gurdjieff's Meetings with Remarkable Men. Lighten up, Fred; it's actually a pretty good play.--Dking 21:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Connecting material between two sections; Fred Newman as playwright 

message: Please do not add unattributed opinions or original research to this article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In Wikipedia, we only report what published / reliable sources say about a subject. This article is a compilatons of tidbits of information that some editors here believe to be about Cults and new religious movements in literature and popular culture. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:NOR]] 

message: I will add a bit more later but for now, I think List of Scientology references in popular culture violates WP:NOT, an indiscriminate collection of information. I think that we are trying to build a real article here which is not the case at List of Scientology references in popular culture and the list should be merged in. --Justanother 20:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  mergefrom - List of Scientology references in popular culture 

message: OK, I know some will say I am premature but I want to have a place separate from any debate where we can discuss ideas of how such a merge would look. Thinks like 1) do we make a separate Scn section; 2) can we find RS that discusses the near meme-like appearance of Scn in technorati culture; etc. --Justanother 20:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thoughts on the mechanics of bringing Scn list over here 

message: I am concerned about the lack of discussion about adding material to this article that is purely original research, or editor's opinion. That is not acceptable. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jossi, you have been arbitrarily deleting large chunks of material from this article (and without adequately describing on the history page what you had done). The issue is not my "adding" material but my restoring what you deleted. I have just restored the material on Christian Science with citations. There is no reason for keeping this organization out of the article--it is included in Melton's Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America and I could provide more citations if necessary on this point. Twain and Cather's criticisms of Christian Science are mentioned in the Wiki articles on these two writers without anyone deciding they had to be deleted. The paragraph I wrote is not hostile to Christian Science--I made it clear that this church became more accepted in later years. But any article on cults and literature certainly must mention that two of the greatest novelists in American history felt strongly enough about Christian Science's alleged abuses in the first decade of the 20th century that they both wrote books about it.
I have also restored Ayn Rand and Wilhelm Reich to the list with citations showing that serious charges of cult-like behavior were leveled against their movements. You may be among those who insist that only religious groups can be defined as cults. This is a minority viewpoint. Most experts on cults agree that a large number of secular oriented groups (self-improvement, marketing, psychotherapy, political) fall under the rubric because of their attempts at totalistic control of the lives of their followers. Also, it is important to keep both Rand and Reich in this article since their influence in the world of ideas demonstrates that even groups on the fringe sometimes have important things to say and exert significant influence beyond their ranks. 
Finally, Jossi, you have been after me for many months to footnote this article exhaustively even though such demands are not usually made about popular culture articles. But when I exhaustively footnoted the paragraph on social therapy and the "Growing Up Gotti" episode, you promptly removed it. Isn't this inconsistent?--Dking 18:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A POV that group X may be considered a "cult" does not warrant an inclusion in this article, unless that POV is widely held. Otherwise you are violating WP:NPOV#Unduee weight. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:19, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For example, there is only one citation about Wilhelm Reich referring to "cult" (Brady). Same for Ayn Rand (Walker). Same for Christian Science (Martin). So, you are simply asserting these to be "cults" on the basis of minority viewpoints by fact of including these in this article, and that is simply not acceptable. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please discuss 

message: This: "One of the earliest descriptions of an individual resembling a cult leader in the modern sense of the term was in "Alexander the False Prophet," a satire by Lucian of Samosata, a second century AD writer." That means that we could add the same about Jesus, Moses, or any other charismatic prophets in the Abrahamic religions. That sentence is an examplate of what  we do not do in Wikipedia. Unless you can find a source that describes "Alexander the False Prophet" as a cult leader, that material does not belong in this article (or any other article for that matter). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Example of original research 

message: A dispute about the appropriateness of the inclusion of literary works of Mark Twain, Willa Cather, Wilhelm Reich, Ayn Rand, and Fred Newman in this article.
===Comments by involved editors ===
Please do place your comments on your section only. Do not reply or comment on the section marked for third-party editors responding to this RfC.
====Comment by ====
My intention is seek the removal content from this article that is not based on wide consensus of sources as it pertains to their association of being "leading members of cults" or related to "cults". The argument for removal is a violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight and original research, as the sources provided do not support the assertion that their authors are "leaders of cults" or that they wrote about "cults". This includes mentions of:
* Mark Twain, Willa Cather, and Christian Science
* Wilhelm Reich
* Ayn Rand
* Fred Newman
I am also arguing for the removal of the "Ancient" section, on the basis of violation of WP:NOR, as well as the removal of the sentence "Since the advent of the anti-cult movement in the 1970s, numerous thrillers have been written in which the hero, often a private detective, rescues a young person from a cult and/or uncovers nefarious murders plotted by a cult", on the same basis of OR violation and lack of attribution.  ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will reply to Dking's lengthy comments in a few days, as I am busy now with another project in Wikipedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: But I can start by saying that these references are better discussed and added alongside other sources which do not assert that narrow viewpoint, in the articles about these people. Otherwise we will be adding just the viewpoints of critics of these people and would end up in violation of WP:BLP in those cases that the person is alive, and in all cases in violation of WP:NPOV. I will add my counter arguments point by point, in a few days. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fail to see the need to put the citations above in the article at all. They are only for the purpose of establishing that particular individuals or movements can validly be included in this article because proper citations exist. This is an article about cults in literature and popular culture; it is not the appropriate place for a bibliography of charges and defenses re particular groups which should be (and many of them are) in the Wikipedia articles on those groups.--Dking 16:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are avoiding my main argument, Dking. I do not dispute that these sources exist, neither I dispute that some of these sources characterize certain individuals or groups as related to "cults". What I am disputing is that by adding these people and groups to this article you are asserting that as a fact, when actually it is only the opinion of these sources that can hardly be considered anything else than partisan (i.e. the opinion of critics of these people and groups). If a certain group is widely considered a "cult" by the fact that theres is wide consensus of sources about it (such as in the case of CoS), then fine it can be included. I have asked you several times to read WP:NPOV#Undue weight, have you? An extreme analogy may throw some light. An article about "Mass murder in popular culture", should include a mention of George W. Bush based on Islamist sources? Would the same article allow the inclusion of Ariel Sharon based on anti-Israeli sources? Surely not. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC Summary 

message: Please do place your comments on your section only. Do not reply or comment on the section marked for third-party editors responding to this RfC.
====Comment by ====
My intention is seek the removal content from this article that is not based on wide consensus of sources as it pertains to their association of being "leading members of cults" or related to "cults". The argument for removal is a violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight and original research, as the sources provided do not support the assertion that their authors are "leaders of cults" or that they wrote about "cults". This includes mentions of:
* Mark Twain, Willa Cather, and Christian Science
* Wilhelm Reich
* Ayn Rand
* Fred Newman
I am also arguing for the removal of the "Ancient" section, on the basis of violation of WP:NOR, as well as the removal of the sentence "Since the advent of the anti-cult movement in the 1970s, numerous thrillers have been written in which the hero, often a private detective, rescues a young person from a cult and/or uncovers nefarious murders plotted by a cult", on the same basis of OR violation and lack of attribution.  ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will reply to Dking's lengthy comments in a few days, as I am busy now with another project in Wikipedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: But I can start by saying that these references are better discussed and added alongside other sources which do not assert that narrow viewpoint, in the articles about these people. Otherwise we will be adding just the viewpoints of critics of these people and would end up in violation of WP:BLP in those cases that the person is alive, and in all cases in violation of WP:NPOV. I will add my counter arguments point by point, in a few days. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fail to see the need to put the citations above in the article at all. They are only for the purpose of establishing that particular individuals or movements can validly be included in this article because proper citations exist. This is an article about cults in literature and popular culture; it is not the appropriate place for a bibliography of charges and defenses re particular groups which should be (and many of them are) in the Wikipedia articles on those groups.--Dking 16:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are avoiding my main argument, Dking. I do not dispute that these sources exist, neither I dispute that some of these sources characterize certain individuals or groups as related to "cults". What I am disputing is that by adding these people and groups to this article you are asserting that as a fact, when actually it is only the opinion of these sources that can hardly be considered anything else than partisan (i.e. the opinion of critics of these people and groups). If a certain group is widely considered a "cult" by the fact that theres is wide consensus of sources about it (such as in the case of CoS), then fine it can be included. I have asked you several times to read WP:NPOV#Undue weight, have you? An extreme analogy may throw some light. An article about "Mass murder in popular culture", should include a mention of George W. Bush based on Islamist sources? Would the same article allow the inclusion of Ariel Sharon based on anti-Israeli sources? Surely not. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments by involved editors 

message: My intention is seek the removal content from this article that is not based on wide consensus of sources as it pertains to their association of being "leading members of cults" or related to "cults". The argument for removal is a violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight and original research, as the sources provided do not support the assertion that their authors are "leaders of cults" or that they wrote about "cults". This includes mentions of:
* Mark Twain, Willa Cather, and Christian Science
* Wilhelm Reich
* Ayn Rand
* Fred Newman
I am also arguing for the removal of the "Ancient" section, on the basis of violation of WP:NOR, as well as the removal of the sentence "Since the advent of the anti-cult movement in the 1970s, numerous thrillers have been written in which the hero, often a private detective, rescues a young person from a cult and/or uncovers nefarious murders plotted by a cult", on the same basis of OR violation and lack of attribution.  ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will reply to Dking's lengthy comments in a few days, as I am busy now with another project in Wikipedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: But I can start by saying that these references are better discussed and added alongside other sources which do not assert that narrow viewpoint, in the articles about these people. Otherwise we will be adding just the viewpoints of critics of these people and would end up in violation of WP:BLP in those cases that the person is alive, and in all cases in violation of WP:NPOV. I will add my counter arguments point by point, in a few days. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fail to see the need to put the citations above in the article at all. They are only for the purpose of establishing that particular individuals or movements can validly be included in this article because proper citations exist. This is an article about cults in literature and popular culture; it is not the appropriate place for a bibliography of charges and defenses re particular groups which should be (and many of them are) in the Wikipedia articles on those groups.--Dking 16:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are avoiding my main argument, Dking. I do not dispute that these sources exist, neither I dispute that some of these sources characterize certain individuals or groups as related to "cults". What I am disputing is that by adding these people and groups to this article you are asserting that as a fact, when actually it is only the opinion of these sources that can hardly be considered anything else than partisan (i.e. the opinion of critics of these people and groups). If a certain group is widely considered a "cult" by the fact that theres is wide consensus of sources about it (such as in the case of CoS), then fine it can be included. I have asked you several times to read WP:NPOV#Undue weight, have you? An extreme analogy may throw some light. An article about "Mass murder in popular culture", should include a mention of George W. Bush based on Islamist sources? Would the same article allow the inclusion of Ariel Sharon based on anti-Israeli sources? Surely not. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment by {{user|Jossi}}

message: I see the problem as using a derogatory term to indicate NRM's. Anti-religious and/or anti-NRM activists like to tar groups with the "cult" epithet but there is no consensus on whether many such groups are "cults" in the pejorative sense or even how you would clearly define the term. One real and easy solution I see is just remove the vast majority of uses of the term "cult. A line in the intro that "some consider some, etc" is sufficient. This also speaks to the need for a NRM MOS as once suggested to me by my friend, Mr. User:Anynobody. --Justanother 21:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment by {{User|Justanother}}

message: [I revised my comments below on March 27, adding an additional section for citations proving that scholars and mental health professionals take the concept of psychotherapy cults seriously. I also added cites or quotes to the Christian Science, Ayn Rand and Reich sections, and corrected a mistake in the Reich section in which I had attributed a Gardner quote to the wrong Gardner book.]
I agree that after an opening statement it should not be necessary to use the term "cult" to designate any real (and still existing) organizations or movements mentioned in this article. Thus, I agree that Reich should be described as the "founder of orgonomy" not as the "founder of a psychotherapy cult" (actually Reichian therapy was as much bodywork as psychotherapy--my mistake). I also agree that Fred Newman's movement should continue to be called simply "social therapy" not the "social therapy cult" (I made that change some time ago). In terms of fictional cults mentioned in the descriptions of novels, I suggest we keep the use of the word "cult" if the author uses it for his own fictional creation.
What follows is not presented as "proof" that any particular group is a cult; it is only a compilation of published sources recognized by Wikipedia that I think validates the inclusion of the particular group and/or its founder in this article. 
1. Ayn Rand belongs in this article. Citations are as follows:
a. Jeff Walker, The Ayn Rand Cult, Open Court, 1998. Called a "solid contribution to 20th century intellectual history" by Library Journal.
b. Nathaniel Branden, My Years with Ayn Rand, Jossey-Bass Publishers, San Francisco, 1999. Branden was the head of the Rand "Collective" until 1968 and also was Rand's lover. "There was terrible violence done to every one's emotional life--the repression or suppression of any feeling that clashed with what an ideal Objectivist was supposed to experience..." p. 223. "To our more fanatical and conformist students, Objectivism did not signify merely the body of abstract philosophical propositions and arguments that we wrote about and taught. Its meaning was expanded to include every personal like and dislike of Ayn's....These students proved that they were good Objectivists through their skill at mimicking Ayn's viewpoints down to the smallest detail--re-creating Ayn, as it were, within themselves. They further proved it by watching one another, suspiciously and critically, for deviations; if they could not match Ayn in intellect, they could at least match her in harshness." p. 307. Also see the list of basic premises of life in the Rand movement ("Ayn Rand is the greatest human being who has ever lived," etc. etc.), p. 226.
c. Ellen Plasil, Therapist, New York: St. Martin's Press, 1985. Harrowing account of sexual abuse of patients in Objectivist therapy. Nathaniel Branden's review ("The Dark Side of Objectivism," Free Inquiry, Summer 1987), is especially pertinent here. "I recommend it [Plasil's book] to anyone interested in the psychology of cultism and how individuals can be led to suspend their moral judgment and common sense in the name of idealism and loyalty--and out of an overzealous desire to belong somewhere." And: "There is an irrational, cultish tendency in many intellectual movements, and Objectivism, alas, is no exception."  
d. Michael Shermer, "The Unlikeliest Cult in History," Skeptic, vol. 2, no. 2, 1993.
e. Murray N. Rothbard, "The Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult," 1972 (Murray Rothbard Archives). Rothbard, a major American economic thinker, wrote from personal experience. He was associated briefly with the Rand movement as described in Branden's book.
f. Donna Greiner and Theodore B. Kinni, Ayn Rand and Business, New York: TEXERE, 2001. These authors are fans of Rand's ideas but nevertheless do not try to cover up the cultish history of the Collective: "Unhappily, as Objectivism spread, so did the authoritarianism and intolerance of its inner circle. Members who questioned the philosophy or decisions of Ayn or the Brandens often found themselves excommunicated from the group. The Saturday night sessions in Ayn's apartment would often degenerate into prolonged attacks on flaws in the thinking of specific members....Objectivism was beginning to look more like a cult than a philosophical movement." (pp. 22-23)
2. Fred Newman and social therapy belong in this article. Citations are as follows:
a. "A Cult by Any Other Name: The New Alliance Party Dismantled and Reincarnated," Anti-Defamation League Special Report, New York, 1995 
b. "Fred Newman: Lenin as Therapist," Chapter 7 of Dennis Tourish and Tim Wolhforth's On the Edge, 2000 
c. Chip Berlet, "Clouds Blur the Rainbow," pamphlet, Political Research Associates: Cambridge, MA, 1987
d. Joe Conason, "Psychopolitics," Village Voice, June 1, 1982 
e. Bruce Shapiro, "The New Alliance Party: Dr. Fulani's Snake-Oil Show," The Nation, May 4, 1992 
f. Liz Spikol, "Group Hug: Is Social Therapy a political cult, as some have said?" Philadelphia Weekly, June 12, 2002 ; author answers her own own question in "Boycott This Play!" Philadelphia Weekly, Sept. 4, 2002 
g. David Grann, "The Infiltrators," The New Republic, Dec. 13, 1999 
h. Rita Nissan, "Psychopolitics," six part series on NY1 News, Oct. 31-Nov. 5, 2005 (won the New York Press Association "Golden Gloves" award) 
i. Archive of many more citable published works, as well as a vast amount of noncitable backup information. 
3. Christian Science, Mark Twain and Willa Cather belong in this article.
a. The fact that Twain and Cather wrote critically about Christian Science is included without dispute elsewhere on Wikipedia (for instance in the biographical article on Cather and in a brief article on Twain's book that describes it as "highly critical" of Christian Science).
b. Christian Science is included in J. Gordon Melton's Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America (New York, Garland Publishing, 1992).
c. Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Christian Science, is included in J. Gordon Melton's Biographical Dictionary of American Cult and Sect Leaders, New York, Garland Publishing, 1986, pp. 80-82.
d. Serious charges of cultism (in the secular meaning of that term) continue to be levelled at Christian Science today. See, for instance, Linda Kramer, The Religion That Kills: Christian Science, Abuse, Neglect and Mind Control, Huntington House, 2000. "Is Christian Science a cult? Are its followers the victims of mind control? In a word, yes...." writes Kramer, a former Church member (p. 19). A favorable review of this book from the standpoint of the academic anti-cult movement (by Frank MacHover, Ph.D.) can be found in the Cultic Studies Review, Vol. 2, No. 3, 2003. See also Caroline Fraser's God's Perfect Child, New York: Metropolitan Books, 1999. The preface of this book, esp. pp. 5-7, says it all in terms of Fraser's experience growing up in CS. On pp. 16-17, she writes in a more historical context: "The vitality of Christian Science gradually faded, giving way to a new, darker phase, particularly following the life-saving medical discoveries made during World War II, which cast a shadow over the Church's healing. The Church had inherited from its founder and Mother not only money and property, but detailed, perversely autocratic, often eccentric. instructions on how the Church was to be run....Mary Baker Eddy was a deeply fearful person. She hid herself from her followers and from the world. Her child--the Church--has taken after her."  As to the use of the "C" word: "The suggestibility, infatuation, and enthusiasm that sparked Christian Science and has also sparked many other religious cults and sects lies behind our current anxious fixations on imaginary perils and medical conspiracies." (p. 447) See also interview with Fraser in Salon magazine ("Like Jonestown in Slow Motion," Laura Miller, Salon, Sept. 1, 1999) and review of Fraser's book by Miller in the same issue ("The Respectable Cult"). Other recent articles include Savannah Waring Walker, "The Residue of Faith and Fury," New York Times, June 12, 2001. Additional recent articles critical of Christian Science can be found at the anti-cult web archive run by Rick Ross. It should also be noted that the Christian counter-cult movement regards Christian Science as one of the major cults in the United States; see Walter Martin's The Kingdom of the Cults (rev. ed., Bethany House Publishers, 1997)--the most influential book of the countercult movement.
e. Willa Cather's biography of Eddy and profile of the Church includes crystal clear examples of cultism, although, unlike Twain (see below), she does not use the word "cult." See Cather's description of the rigid discipline in the Church in which total obedience was expected and little personal initiative allowed (pp. 460-65); how Eddy adopted the title of "Mother" and instituted pilgrimages to her home (p. 442); and how she instituted a total personal dictatorship over the Church (pp. 470-78). Fraser (pp. 138-139) describes the lengths that Christian Science went to in trying to prevent McClure's magazine from publishing the investigative series on which Cather's book would be based, and how, once the book was published, they prevented it from being widely read. "The Christian Scientists essentially succeeded in suppressing it the entire time in which it was under copyright." (This incident, which makes some of the attempts by contemporary cults to squelch media criticism look feeble in comparison, should be reason enought to include mention of Cather in this article.)
     
f. Mark Twain repeatedly refers to Christian Science as a cult. "A prominent Christian Scientist has assured me that the Scientists do not worship Mrs. Eddy, and I think it likely that there may be five or six of the cult in the world who do not worship her." (Book Two, Chap. 8; this example is characteristic Twain lecture-circuit humor.) More clearly: "Eddy-Worship will be taught in the Sunday-schools and pulpits of the cult." (Book One, Chap. 7). And most clearly of all in a letter commenting on how the Christian Scientists had scared Harper's into deciding not to publish his book: "I had been doing my best to show in print that the Xn Scientist cult was become a power in the land--well, here was proof: it had scared the biggest publisher in the Union!" (Quoted in Fraser, pp. 123-4.) Fraser writes that Twain "conveys the force of his subject's ego better than anyone else before or since. His analysis of her character and the quality of her writing is ruthlessly accurate." (p. 126)
4. Wilhelm Reich belongs in this article.
a. Mildred E. Brady, "The New Cult of Sex and Anarchy," Harper's Magazine, April 1947.
b. Martin Gardner, In the Name of Science (Fads and Fallacies In the Name of Science), New York: Dover, 1952 (compares Reich to L. Ron Hubbard). It should be noted that Gardner is widely regarded as the father of the contemporary skeptical movement; and his Fads and Fallacies, as a classic of that movement.
c. Martin Gardner, "The Hermit Scientist," Antioch Review, Dec. 1950. This influential essay has a section on Reich: "Let us turn to a more colorful scientist whose work has recently become a lively cult among the more bohemian intellectuals of New York and elsewhere--the psychiatrist Wilhelm Reich." 
d. Christopher Evans, Cults of Unreason, London, Harrap, 1973. Evans, an experimental psychologist, includes a brief section re orgonomy and Reich; says the subject needs more treatment; refers the reader to Gardner.
  
e. Martin Gardner, "Reich the Rainmaker," Skeptical Inquirer, Fall 1988. Reprinted in Gardner's Walk on the Wild Side, Prometheus Books, 1992. Compares the Reich movement to Scientology in very strong language (p. 23). In reference to "today's orgonomists," Gardner comments that "science cults never die, they just slowly fade after the death of their charismatic guru." (p. 26)
f. Martin Gardner, The Night is Large: Collected Essays, 1938-1995, New York: St. Martin's Press, 1996. This book reprints the chapter on Reich from Fads and Fallacies with a postcript updating it. That Gardner's use of the word "cult" refers to the Reichian movement and not just to a Reichian public "craze" is made crystal clear in the postscript: "Orgonomy is still a flourishing cult....In 1967 the remnant faithful founded the Journal of Orgonomy and a year later the American College of Orgonomy. In 1987 it moved its headquarters from Manhattan to near Princeton, New Jersey....[A] committee...raised more than $2.5 million to finance construction of the new headquarters." (pp. 205-206)
g. Joel Carlinksy, "Epigones of Orgonomy: The Incredible History of Wilhelm Reich and His Followers," Skeptic, Vol. 2, No. 3, 1994. "Most of the 30 or so members of the [American College of Orgonomy] are psychiatrists. Most of the 4,000 or so people who have donated money to the A.C.O. fundraising campaign ($5,000,000 to date) are patients or former patients. This exploitation of emotionally vulnerable people is facilitated by the fact that Orgone Therapy seems to render the patient more or less permanently emotionally dependent on the therapist. In any case, it is a flagrant breach of ethics for psychiatrists to solicit funds from patients for a cause in which the doctor has an interest."  
h. Myron Sharaf, Fury on Earth: A Biography of Wilhelm Reich, St. Martin's Press, New York, 1983. Sharaf was a former follower of Reich and remained sympathetic to him, but he also was aware of the weaknesses in Reich and his movement. The following statement on p. 430 fully qualifies the Reich movement (and Reich as its founder) for inclusion in this Wiki article: "There was some tension between those who worked closely with Reich in Maine [at his Orgonon community]...or who followed him absolutely...and the New York [Reichian] physicians...who were often uncomfortable with certain of Reich's positions, especially his dealings with the FDA. However, when Reich issued orders everybody fell in line, with greater or less importance. Increasingly, Reich saw himself as a general with lieutenants, sergeants and privates in his small army. At the very least they were locked in a life-and-death struggle against the emotional plague on earth; possibly they were at war with space men. Like a general, Reich demanded and usually obtained total obedience from those around him."
i. The writings about orgonomy of Roger M. Wilcox, who grew up in the Reichian movement, are available on the Internet. They are self-published and thus cannot be cited, but I include them as backup material. See "My Personal Experiences with Orgone Therapy"  in which Wilcox describes being forced by his parents, as a child, to undergo extremely painful bodywork sessions with an apparently sadistic Reichian therapist. See also the statement by Susanna Steig at  about her memories of the encouragement of sex between small children at Orgonon. Wilcox's account of painful poking and prodding is backed up by the account given by Reich's son Peter in his memoir of growing up at Orgonon, A Book of Dreams, New York: Harper & Row, 1973 (although the bodywork with Peter, conducted by his own father, seems to have been done in a less harsh manner than what Wilcox remembers). Steig's memories are backed in part (if inadvertently) by a dingbat article entitled "Children in Love" on the American College of Orgonomy web page. 
5. Other items. The statement that the anti-cult upsurge in the 1970s has stimulated many thrillers about cults is the type of obvious statement for which citation is almost never demanded in articles on popular culture. The statement was left without an example after someone other than myself removed what was previously there. I have added two examples and doubtless other mystery buffs will provide more. Likewise, the statement about Lucian's "Alexander the False Prophet" as now worded is a description of the satire's theme no different from the many other brief descriptions of literary works in this article. Such descriptions can and should be cited to the works themselves, which I have done in the case of the Lucian satire.
6. Psychotherapy Cults. It would appear from studying the history of this discussion, that Joshi's current editorial objections are focussed mostly on the issue of therapy cults--since of his four main complaints three refer to such movements: (a) Fred Newman's social therapy; (b) Wilhelm Reich's orgonomy (a mixture of psychotherapy and bodywork); and (c) Ayn Rand's objectivism (an ideological movement that has offered its own brand of psychotherapy). I understand that many cult apologists assert that the word "cult" should ONLY apply to religious groups, not to psychotherapy or political groups. But their view is by no means the dominant one--as demonstrated by the following articles and books (and I could provide many more) that affirm the validity of the concept of psychotherapy cultism.
a. Temerlin MK, Temerlin JW, "Psychotherapy Cults: an iatrogenic perversion," Psychotherapy: Theory, Research and Practice, 1982; 19: 131-141.  
b. Singer MT, Temerlin MK, Langone MD, "Psychotherapy cults," Cultic Studies Journal, 1990, 7: 101-105.
c. Hochman J, "Iatrogenic symptoms associated with a therapy cult," Psychiatry, 1984 Nov;47(4):366-377.
d. Marybeth F. Ayella, Insane Therapy: Portrait of a Psychotherapy Cult, Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1998. See favorable review by Anson Shupe in Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, March 1999, 38:1, p 191. 
e. William Sims Bainbridge, Satan's Power: A Deviant Psychotherapy Cult, Berkeley, U. of California Press, 1978.
f. Tamar Lewin, "Custody case lifts veil on a 'psychotherapy cult,'" New York Times, June 3, 1988.
g. Schwartz LL, Kaslow, FW, "The Cult Phenomenon: A Turn of the Century Update," American Journal of Family Therapy, Jan/Feb 2001, 29:1, pp. 13-22 (includes section on "Psychotherapy Cults").
h. Margaret T. Singer and Janja Lalich, Crazy Therapies, Jossey-Bass, 1996. Two of the leading figures in cultic studies survey the world of quack therapies, including therapy cults. 
   
I hope that those who wish to comment on the above argument will not place interpolations within it but will rather comment below in their own space, referring to the above by reference to the outline numbering.--Dking 23:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments by {{user|Dking}}