Talk:History of antisemitism/Archive 1

message: 1121  A letter from Baghdad describes decrees regulating Jewish clothes: "two yellow badges, one on the headgear and one on the neck. Furthermore, each Jew must hang round his neck a piece of lead with the word dhimmi on it. He also has to wear a belt round his waist. The women have to wear one red and one black shoe and have a small bell on their necks or shoes." (Paul Johnson, History of the Jews p.204-5)
In the middle ages, there were regulations concerning the clothes  that people of the certain profession must wear. What it has to do with AS?? Cautious 18:51, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: NOT an anti-Semitism

message: 1483 Lithuania - Jews were readmitted in 1501. The law, that states which traders are allowed in the country, has nothing to do with Anti-Semitism.
Similarly:
1483 Warsaw got the privilage thet Jews cannot settled down, but Jews could settle down elsewhere. Simply, Polish towns were divided on Jewish populated, German  populated and mixed. By the way, Warsaw was then tiny town, rather village, located in semi-independent Duchy of Masovia.
: I have returned them back. Please try not to mix your own agenda and NPOV. Humus sapiens 09:23, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issues in the 1400s 

message: Kielce deserves its own article. Moving the discussion to Talk:Kielce pogrom
Saving a remark from Cautious for the history of Antisemitism:
Let's stick to the facts: Jews in Kielce 1946 could have returned from concentration camps, could have returned from death camps (but very few. Only prisoners in death camps, were operators of them. There were few people necessary to operate. They could have been Jews). They could have returned from deportation to Soviet Union. They could have return from the hiding by the local families. They could also have returned from the hiding in the forest.
The resources say, that 1 or 2 victims of the pogrom were not Jewish. So let limit ourselves to the facts.
: So the logic is, if some Jews were forced to be operators in the camps or have returned home from deportation to the SU, this makes them legitimate target of pogrom in 1946? That's sick. Humus sapiens 09:25, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You have well developed imagination. In the main article about Kielce pogrom is stated that among victims there were 2 non-Jewish persons. As far as I am concerned it should be properly stated: over 40 people killed. The second point is, that in July 1946 more then a year after the end of WW2, people were not under journey from death camps. It is not established, where they spent the war. Some of them might survive the war in other places: Soviet Union, forests, hidden in private apartments. Therefore your text is factually wrong and misleading. Cautious 10:48, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Kielce

message: If the Romans are going on this page (and there were two separate Roman sackings of Judaea -- the first after the Masada revolt, the second after Simon Bar Kohkba decided that he was the Messiah), then Antiochus Epiphanes belongs here too: his actions were explicitly aimed at wiping out Judaism, while the Romans' actions were more like their suppression of any other revolt; they didn't see any major religious dimension to it, and before things turned violent, they were fairly tolerant of Judaism. --MIRV 09:06, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Perhaps we should briefly mention only relevant dates & events here, emphasizing why they are important. Humus sapiens 10:33, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Romans and the Jews 

message: has some readings on Tiberius' expulsion. I doubt that this particular episode belongs on the timeline, but other opinions are of course welcome. --MIRV 21:09, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Tiberius

message: Moved to talk: "1634  Anti-Semitic left overs banned in Poland."
Reasons: 1) The meaning is unclear. 2) Is it relevant to the subj of persecutions? Humus sapiens 08:19, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: More on (2) above: I've changed my position on relevance of persecutions in the article. Now I think that major reversals of oppressive policies also belong here. Endless expulsions don't make a lot of sense unless they are punctuated by readmittions - often for a price. Humus sapiens 22:30, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reversals of AS policies 

message: What specific changes must be made to remove the "disputed" notes? Unless there is a response in, say, a month, they will be removed. Humus sapiens 01:24, 25 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there are all the individual sections disputed here on the talk page, not to mention the complaints about a severe lack of context for many items and the inherent inaccuracy of lumping together everything from the Seleucid persecutions to the modern-day intifada. If a month passes with no such disputes, then the boilerplate should be removed. --MIRV 22:39, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Disputation" boilerplates (pun intended) 

message: Yes, I was around Wikipedia when they put them together. "Be bold." "Remove patent nonsense." As for "equal opportunity oppressors," I guess you agree with my removal of all the Roman Empire stuff. You should read about what they did in Syria, Armenia, Parthia, Dacia, Gaul, etc... Equating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism is, to say the least, a highly debated issue, and you are taking a stance on it, declaring it as a matter of fact (see: Wikipedia:How to edit articles). Do you want me to nitpick at each and every date? I can. Danny 05:04, 25 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: This is constructive (except your "Gevalt"), thank you. I'll remove it. Need to learn more about this, but where did it say Castille or Spain? BTW, some of entries you removed today I'm going to reword to show their relevance and put back. Hadrian is definitely relevant. Humus sapiens 07:32, 25 Dec 2003 (UTC)

text: Reasonable. Humus sapiens 01:23, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Reasonable. JeMa
I took out two of the way-too-many links for Kielce. The Sinai Liechter piece is an abominable piece of poorly written crap. The link to Polonia Today surprised me: Do you actually read the links? It takes the attitude of Cardinal Hlond. If you really want some information about Kielce, Humus, try reading Jerzy Slawomir Mac, "The Kielce Pogrom, 1946,"  in Studium Papers 13, no. 2 (1989; trans. Padraig Kenney). The links I already went through were pretty poor--they certainly don't capture what really happened or its impact throughout Europe. Like I always say when I teach the subject, if you wanna talk about it, you gotta really know it first. Danny 04:51, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: I've read them and thought it'd be a POV from the other side. The multitude of links was in response to denial by User:Cautious above. I'll try to research more. Humus sapiens 09:17, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation of some major cuts 

message: Someone deleted:
:2003 Dec. 2. A UN draft resolution condemning anti-Semitism is cancelled.
Actually the 58th General Assembly passed two resolutions, "The incompatibility between democracy and racism" and "Global efforts for the total elimination of racism, etc.." which condemn anti-Semitism explicitly.  There were only two votes against: Israel and USA.  Presumably the reason was that the resolution wording says "anti-Semitism and Islamophobia". Go searching at http://www.un.org/ga/58/ --Zero 11:21, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the info on the UN res. in question:
*Irish Examiner
*Cronwatch
*Irish official response Humus sapiens 08:16, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  UN resolution 

message: :26  Procurator Pontius Pilate misappropriates Temple funds, orders his legion to attack the protestors. Philo calls him consumed with "corruption, violence and robbery", responsible for "oppression, illegal executions, never-ending most grevious cruelty". Blaming Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth (in c. 36) is traditional anti-semitic accusation.
I removed this section because, as far as I can ascertain, there's no reason to suppose that Pilate's actions were motivated by any special hatred of Jews; rather, it seems that he was simply incompetent, cruel, and somewhat corrupt -- all of which were normal characteristics among Roman provincial administrators, sadly. If there's evidence to the contrary, this should of course go back in. --MIRV 17:19, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pontius Pilate 

message: * Timeline of Anti-Semitism -- This article is used to push an agenda and cannot possibly be NPOV without providing context (which a timeline can't do of course). Another disingenuous propaganda attempt if you ask me. --213.231.204.211 19:52, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved here from VfD 

message: From article, copied to Holocaust:
*The Holocaust Chronicle
*The Holocaust Chronology (PBS)
*Holocaust History
*Deathly Silence: Everyday People in the Holocaust (By Plater Robinson)
That's lovely, but we have a great article on the Holocaust already, and there are references there, so I don't think we need citations here too. Save the citations for items where we don't have articles yet! Martin 22:34, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holocaust 

message: Discussion moved to Talk:Hadrian
Since I've edited the entry in _this_ article, I'll discuss it here. Cut/paste as you like, I'll follow and maybe even learn some rules :)
WAS: 117 - 138. The reign of Roman emperor Hadrian, who crushed two Jewish revolts in Judea and re-established Jerusalem. See Hadrian for more details. 
: IMHO, simply crushing a rebellion is not AS. His inadequate attempt to wipe out entire religion/nation and erase its trace from map and from history definintely is. BTW, if he did the same to Phrygians and Parthians, I don't have any problem calling him anti-P or anti-P as well. 
Hadrian also re-established Jerusalem, which had a major effect 1800 years later 
:True, but not _because_ of Hadrian, rather _in_spite_ of him. Rebuilding it as a Roman city, banning any Jewish presence there, banning the Torah, desecrating the Temple... Isn't this the historical context that the article has been suggested to provide? Humus sapiens 23:34, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: We are in agreement here. Except Jewish diaspora began half a millenia before that, with Babylonian exile. Maybe minor rewording is still called for. Humus sapiens 21:48, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hadrian 

message: Moved following to talk:
1940 April 9. A popular legend portrays king Christian X of Denmark wearing an armband as he makes his daily morning horseback ride through the streets of Copenhagen, followed by non-Jewish Danes responding to their king's example, thus preventing the Nazis from identifying Jewish citizens. In the book Queen in Denmark (by Anne Wolden-Ræthinge) the Queen Margrethe II of Denmark says about the legend: "It is a beautiful and symbolic story, but it is not true. The myth about the King wearing the star of David... To me, the truth is an even greater honor for our country than the myth." The Danes did undertake heroic efforts to shelter their Jews (about 7,000) and help them escape from the Nazis to Sweden. Rescue of the Danish Jews
#1 It isn't about anti-Semitism
#2 More important events are omitted.
#3 We should list detail story of holocaust that was about 6 000 000, before this story of 7 000 should be listed, otherwise we loose any proportion.
Cautious
:Agreed that this paragraph could be removed. But we should not discuss the Holocaust here; that subject has its own dedicated article. Instead, we should mark significant dates and events related to the Holocaust, but defer discussion to the proper articles. JeMa 17:51, Jan 8, 2004 (UTC)
::Fine. The idea was to show that not all people were bad... Humus sapiens 08:09, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian X of Denmark 

message: :425  St. Augustine of Hippo and St. Jerome brand Judaism a corruption and call for the enslavement and severe persecution of Jews until they agreed to convert.
Augustine actually argued, at some points, against the persecution of Jews, albeit for reasons other than the general wrongness of persecution (see his article and the section in Christianity and anti-Semitism; also see ). Can we have references to the specific texts by these authors, please? --MIRV 19:52, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's where it came from, I think: [Paul Johnson's History of the Jews (1987), p. 165]: "St Augustine, the most influential of all the Latin theologians, argued that the Jews... were part of God's design, since they were witness to the truth of Chr-ty, their failure and humiliation symbolizing the triumph of church over synagogue. The policy of the church, therefore, was to allow small J. communities to survive in cond. of degradation & impotence." Removal of this sentence is OK by me. Humus sapiens 07:19, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: And Jerome died in 419 or 420, so there's no way he could have written anything in 425. I've taken him out too, because his anti-Semitic writings (the worst I could turn up with a bit of googling) don't say what's attributed to him in the article. --MIRV 16:37, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK for now. Agreed, vagueness should be squeezed out. I feel that the section on the early Chr-ty (when it first broke with J-ism, then ostracised it) needs a lot more work. The point is, this transition was done _gradually_. Humus sapiens 17:15, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. It would be worthwhile to have something on the real opinions of Jerome and Augustine, since they're both important figures of late 4th-early 5th century Christianity, and their attitudes are probably representative of the religion at the time when it had gained real political power within the Roman Empire. Ambrose of Milan's views should also be included here. --MIRV 17:26, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Augustine and Jerome

message: I wonder if somebode realize, that wearing the regulations on the clothes in Middle Ages existed not only for Jews, but for other groups like town people, peasants. This had nothing to do with anti-Semitism. Pro 10:55, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a litmus test: were the peasants or guild folks marginalized-persecuted-murdered just for being what they are? The policy behind the badge was humiliation and degradation. One may argue, the Nazi badge also didn't have anything to do with AS. It's the seeming innocense of small steps. Humus sapiens 17:32, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The innocense of small steps: gradual squeeze

message: Hmm. . . Tacitus is on the list of those who repeated the rumour about the donkey's head in the Holy of Holies, which misses some of his subtlety. In this case, he stated explicitly that he was repeating the stories told by others, and he follows it up with a fairly accurate description of Jewish monotheism (Historia 5.5) and Pompey's entrance into the empty Holy of Holies (Historia 5.9) -- make it reasonably clear that he didn't believe the story.  
--67.71.76.166 19:12, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! I've removed his name from the list. Objections? --Humus sapiens  Talk 22:39, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Tacitus 

message: I don't know about removing him entirely; he did repeat the story, and the rest of Historia 5 makes it clear that he hated Jews. The structure of book 5 runs something like this: 5.1 introduces the subject (the Jewish Revolt) and leads into the backstory; 5.2 collects various theories of Jewish origins; 5.3 and 5.4 give the conventional wisdom, which includes the donkey's head story; 5.5 opens with a dismissal of the old stories and launches into a uniquely Tacitan mixture of vicious polemic (he was good at that) and grudging respect for Jewish piety, morality, and resistance to tyranny. This was his usual style; he would often give a conventional account and follow it up with a penetrating observation which made the previous story look obviously wrong. Here's an example (Historia, 5.4):
:"We are told that the rest of the seventh day was adopted, because this day brought with it a termination of their toils; after a while the charm of indolence beguiled them into giving up the seventh year also to inaction. But others say that it is an observance in honour of Saturn, either from the primitive elements of their faith having been transmitted from the Idæi, who are said to have shared the flight of that God, and to have founded the race, or from the circumstance that of the seven stars which rule the destinies of men Saturn moves in the highest orbit and with the mightiest power, and that many of the heavenly bodies complete their revolutions and courses in multiples of seven."
Or more simply: "Conventional wisdom claims that the Jews rest on every seventh day and year simply because they are lazy; however, here is a reason which any pious Roman would find acceptable for observing temporal cycles of seven."
And another example: in ch. 5 of the same book, he casts further doubt on the conventional wisdom that Jews were originally Egyptian lepers, by his contrast of the Egyptian animal pantheon with the purely spiritual concept of divinity espoused by Jews.  
I think he deserves his own section; he was clearly as anti-Semitic as any other Roman, but he didn't accept the common justifications for the belief, instead aiming for psychological insight into the animosity between Jew and Gentile. At times he seems close to the modern explanation for why Jews (and later Christians) were so detested in that age: monotheists, because of their refusal to acknowledge the cults and practices of others, were considered anti-social freaks by the overwhelmingly polytheistic mindset of the ancient world. Here's my draft: 
:Tacitus writes anti-Jewish polemic in his Historia (book 5). He picks apart and rejects several old anti-Semitic myths¹ (including that of the donkey's head in the Holy of Holies); his explanation for his view that Jews "regard the rest of mankind with all the hatred of enemies" rests on an analysis of the extreme difference between monotheistic Judaism and the polytheism common throughout the known world. 
[1] Granted, Josephus did the same in Against Apion, but he was writing an apologetic tract from a strongly sympathetic perspective; Tacitus' perspective is clearly hostile, but he exposed the inconsistencies and inaccuracies in the stories nonetheless.
(The above is probably slanted in his favor. Please feel free to edit it mercilessly.) My aim is to explain the contrast between the shallow anti-Semitism evident in other ancient writings -- "I think Jews are bad people because they're descended from Egyptian lowlifes" -- and his more considered analysis -- "I think Jews hate and are hated by others because they are monotheists in a polytheistic world; therefore they deserve to be contemptable outcasts." Others may have maintained the same hatred for the same reason, but I think he was the first to explain it in so many words. --67.71.79.45 05:18, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: More Tacitus

message: This article has an entry as follows: "1222 Deacon Robert of Reading, England burned for converting to Judaism, setting a precedent for the burning of heretics."  I've been unable to confirm the existence of such a person and am beginning to suspect that he is either a fabrication or insignificant.  The only mentions of a Deacon Robert of Reading I can find with a web search are verbatim copies of the aforenoted sentence.  Can someone please provide a third-party cite for this person, preferably from primary sources? --Psychonaut 19:20, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deacon Robert 

message: Anti-Semitism is not "one of the causes" of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, at most it is a symptom of it. Anyway, this isn't the place to discuss this, as it only allows for cheap shots which cannot be defended against. The "See" list is more than enough in my opinion. -- Dissident 14:08, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Where's the logic: if the hatred and violence were directed against Argentinian, Turkish, German, Soviet etc. Jews, it's A-S, but if it is against Israeli Jews then suddenly it's not? The section Talk:History of anti-Semitism#Anti-Semitism against Israelis above contains the links provided by User:JeMa. I agree, this kind of A-S propaganda and incitement "cannot be defended against". Let's not mix up a symptom with a cause. --Humus sapiens|Talk 11:26, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Israeli-Palestinian conflict]]