Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 15

message: Just a quick note to say that I've put a group of articles up for Featured Topic status which, if successful, would be the first ever football FT, and only the second sport-related FT of all if you don't count pro wrestling........... ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:38, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems like it'll be withdrawn and snowed. They will still be 1 sports-related FT! :D Davnel03 17:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Featured topic candidates/Margate F.C.]] 

message: Could someone clarify the following notability criterion for me?
:"[A person is generally notable if they] have competed in a fully professional league, ..."
Let's use the Dutch leagues Eerste Divisie and Hoofdklasse as an example of this. The top clubs in those leagues (RKC Waalwijk, IJsselmeervogels) are fully professional, while the bottom clubs are either semi-professional (e.g. FC Eindhoven) or fully amateur. The players of the top clubs are probably notable enough for Wikipedia, but technically speaking they're not in a fully professional league. I would suggest finetuning this criterion, to take such cases into consideration. Any thoughts? AecisBrievenbus 23:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This was tried with a short while ago, with the suggested criteria amended to "plays for a fully professional club in a national league", which would cover the clubs you have mentioned above. However, it doesn't seem to have been adopted... пﮟოьεԻ 57 23:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

text: It may be worth pointing out at this stage that there is a current proposal on WP:BIO to demote the additional criteria to essay status and allow projects to come up with their own additional notability criteria. This will not affect the overarching guideline of WP:N in that any topic is notable if it provides adequate proof and sources. In the majority of cases WP:BIO only applies/is used if an article doesn't have any sources or proof at all. Nanonic (talk) 00:01, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for clarification re. notability criterion 

message: Hi. I'm trying to resuscitate this article, which was rightly speedied after prod for being unreferenced for so long. The term is very familiar to other British fans I speak to, and indeed there's loads of uses in blogs etc, but I have so far found just one source that refers to the term that isn't a blog/forum, but it () isn't even a football publication and certainly doesn't fulfil WP:V!
I've done excruciating web searches and turned up nothing. If anyone out there has books about World Cup or European championships and can find RS for this, I'd be most grateful. --Dweller (talk) 10:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you sure it is familiar? I've certainly never heard of it, and it doesn't even sound like proper English to me. "Group of Death" would be the only "group" I would say is a well-known phrase. пﮟოьεԻ 57 10:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've certainly heard it used, I think the first time might have been at the 1986 World Cup, although I may be daydreaming that.  I wouldn't say it was a significant part of football lore, though...... ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:10, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

text: <edit conflict> The term was coined in ironic opposition to "Group of Death". I first remember it (it may predare this, but Group of Death only originates in 1986) used for the 1990 World Cup group that was England, Ireland, Netherlands and Egypt, which produced dire football. Google hits are about 250K, but many of those are "group of sleep doctors" or whatever, but plenty of relevant hits... just not RS. And Chris, agreede it may not be massively significant, but think it should be demonstrably notable, just frustrated I can't find the evidence! I suspect the redtops use the term, but I don't think they have searchable web archives. --Dweller (talk) 11:14, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, can't say that I've ever heard of it. - fchd (talk) 11:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is original research, and not necessarily by any of the contributors to this talk page. I was an avid national team follower during the 1990 World Cup, and knowhere did I hear the term mentioned - today is the first time I've heard of it. It is certainly not widely used enough to qualify for an article (or even a mention in an article), in the way that Group of death is. Just because one quotational remark is notable, does not automatically mean that it's antithesis is. And an opposite which can't be sourced properly, at that. Thanks. Ref (chew)(do) 11:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Earliest reference I can find is  where it was used in the US press about England's group in the 1986 World Cup. There is a search box at the top of the page linked, I was searching for "group of sleep" AND "world cup" and got about 15 hits, some from/referring to 1986 and some applying the term to other competitions. Though FWIW I don't remember hearing the term used either. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:27, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help - [[Group of Sleep]] 

message: Some code already modified in this templates, now it can use pen. or o.g. (e.g.  to determine that additional parameter. --Aleenf1 04:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template:Goal 

message: Is it possible to cite a match program if it not on the internet. Thanks.  Sunderland06  12:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I've done it several times e.g. in Hatem Trabelsi. Use the same approach as you would for a club website, bearing in mind that both programmes and club websites are self-published sources. Oldelpaso (talk) 12:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I would use Template:cite journal to cite a match programme. – PeeJay 13:41, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, i'll have to wait till Gazh tells me the date the programme was sold and what the title of the article was. Thanks.  Sunderland06  14:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Should be okay, as programmes are freely available to buy for years afterwards via the internet and specialist outlets - therefore it is possible to use them as references as a "non-throwaway" resource, unlike some newspaper editions which aren't archived or transferred to the internet. Ref (chew)(do) 16:28, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citing a match programme 

message: Someone has just moved Yossi Benayoun's article to Yosef Shai "Yossi" Benayoun as that is his full name, surely this runs counter to WP:COMMONNAME? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:02, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverted by PeeJay2K3. Davnel03 19:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah, I noticed that and reverted it. – PeeJay 19:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yossi Benayoun article name changed 

message: Doesn't seem to be notable. Anyone want to prod it? Davnel03 19:50, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They seem notable enough to me. Peanut4 (talk) 20:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't see why they're not notable. Care to explain? – PeeJay 20:20, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite a poorly written article but I agree, it seems notable enough..... ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Playing at Level 2 of the Welsh system seems notable enough to me as well. - fchd (talk) 20:53, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Denbigh Town F.C.]] 

message: For those of you who may not have come across the site before, I'd like to recommend the LA84 Foundation as being quite useful for it's archive of peer-reviewed sports related journals including Football Studies (archives) (NB. The Football studies archive is a) not complete and b) covers all variants of football). The archive index of all available publications can be accessed from here and are predominately pdf files giving references, as you'd expect from peer-reviewed publications. Some selected papers include 
*New Fans, New Flag, New England? Changing News Values in the English Press Coverage of World Cup 2002
*An Examination of the Homefield Advantage in a Professional English Soccer Team from a Psychological Standpoint
*Attitudes, Expectations and Demands of English Premier League Football Association Referees
*Theyre Playing R. Song. Football and the European Union after Bosman
*Football, History and Memory: The Heroes of Manchester United
*Globalised Football Fandom: Scandinavian Liverpool FC Supporters
*The Effects of Managerial Changes in English Professional Soccer, 1975-1995
and many more. You can search within the archive here. Hope this is of some help to someone. Nanonic (talk) 01:16, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peer reviewed journals 

message: I don't have time to nominate this properly at the moment, so I'm listing it here for now. Obviously, if someone wants to move it to the main page, please do.- Dudesleeper ·  Talk 16:07, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also :Category:English footballers who played for the Republic of Ireland. - Dudesleeper ·  Talk 16:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Before doing so, you should be aware of the naming debate here.  Kevin McE (talk) 00:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A debate I have attempted to re-ignite, after if closed with no consensus. Kevin McE (talk) 13:43, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Scottish footballers who played for another national team]] 

message: Notable or not? I'd say it's erring on the side of a Keep vote, myself, but what do you guys think? – PeeJay 21:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah. Definitely on the "indiscriminate collection of information" side of things. There's no impact or derived notability from them, and the strip template is only supposed to provide an approximatation for the sake of recognition anyway. It's a well-done page, but do we really need five images to point out that Bradford City changed the colour of their socks twice in the 50s? Chris Cunningham (talk) 21:10, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Agree with User:Thumperward. This sort of thing is best suited to the historical kits website - fchd (talk) 22:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm in favour, it's an interesting historical document. I'd tie in makes, sponsors, even badges, though; flesh it out a bit. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 22:30, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It's a good start, but it does need a bit more detail for it to hit any notability threshold. – PeeJay 22:33, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am with PeeJay on this, 1. I think it looks great and 2. I think its very informative.--Vintagekits (talk) 13:37, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm in the "indiscriminate collection of information" camp. Non-trivial information about kits can form part of the Colours and Crest section of a club article, minor kit changes are inconsequential. Oldelpaso (talk) 13:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also think listing kit changes is a bit pointless, minor kit changes are a bit inconsequential. Woody (talk) 18:10, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm errring on the side of deletion for this one, while its presence is not harmful, it does seem a little bit too trivial to have here. Qwghlm (talk) 18:57, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm with the distinguished users right above me. – Elisson • T • C • 21:30, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I have nominated the article for deletion, at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gallery of Bradford City kits. AecisBrievenbus 00:43, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Gallery of Bradford City kits]] 

message: Before I re-write and delete half, maybe most of the Bradford City section of the David Wetherall article because it looks like a fan site, I'd like to get the views of fellow project members about what should go and what should stay. It's been like this since March 2006 and can't believe it's avoided the knife since so am hesitant about re-writing without other input. Peanut4 (talk) 02:03, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It sounds like you know exactly what's wrong with it, so be bold! These things sometimes slip through. Wetherall is a player whose career could be described as "solid but unspectacular", and his article probably gets quite low traffic as a result. Oldelpaso (talk) 14:06, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[David Wetherall]] 

message: Is there any hope for this one?  --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 05:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like original research to me, can't say I've heard the term used. The position described is basically that of an old style inside forward. Oldelpaso (talk) 13:57, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's now a re-direct to Inside forward.  --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 14:28, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wing Foward]] 

message: Because of a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (people) about formatting initials in the titles of articles, I've proposed a bot to create redirects for all alternative styles. For example, for titles containing "F.C.", it would create corresponding redirects containing "FC", "F. C.", and "F C". For discussion, see Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Eubot 4. -- Eugène van der Pijll (talk) 02:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  F.C. versus FC, a bot proposal 

message: Have spent some time expanding & improving the George Eastham article (who, as well as being a World Cup winner, whose legal action in the 1960s made him that era's equivalent of Jean-Marc Bosman). Would be interested in any further improvements, or suggestions and criticism, that other editors could make, thanks. Qwghlm (talk) 11:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  George Eastham 

message: The user Qampunen keeps adding these to national team pages. Me and some others keep reverting them. He makes it the first section. It really does not belong there. I asked him about it and he said fellow Wikipedians said it was a good idea even though I checked his contributions and he has never written on a talk page. I think this next and last game section is really not needed. He has re-added them and it is annoying to revert them all. Can we make a final ruling on whether these are needed or not?
Example: Sweden national football team#Last and next games
michfan2123 (talk) 19:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Delete them all. No different from club articles. WATP (talk) • (contribs) 20:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last and next games on National team pages 

message: Could an admin who knows a bit about image issues take a look at the contributions of User:Zanramon‎ over the past few days please? He has added a number of images to football articles that look professionally taken, at least two of which are copyrighted (he has kindly provided the urls...) --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 19:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked one or two and they seem violations, I will go through them systematically sometime later this week. Qwghlm (talk) 19:38, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  User:Zanramon‎ 

message: Putting links to the current season in a club's infobox by (mis)using the image= attribute - is this OK or not? An example can be found here if you're not sure what I'm on about. A discussion without any real consensus emerging appeared here - what are others' opinion this? I am not a massive fan, personally, and if it should be put anywhere, the foot of the box next to the previous season's position seems the more obvious place. Qwghlm (talk) 19:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We could have a "current" attribute which did the same thing as it does in  in five minutes. It's just yet more irrational fear of adding attributes to the infobox, a bizarre phenomenon unique to this particular WikiProject in my experience. So yeah, people shouldn't misuse the current attributes, we should just add a new one. Chris Cunningham (talk) 19:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done. That took about eighteen seconds. Chris Cunningham (talk) 19:55, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  (Mis)using the image= attribute in infoboxes 

message: Hi. I want to transfer this image to Commons, but I don't know if it's older enough to be in public domain. It's taken from the book The Official History of the Football Association, but as far as I know this book is not available where I live (Uruguay), so I can't check the year the photography was taken. I would appreciate if someone who has this book could check the year. Thanks, Ffahm (Talk) 04:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at it, is it not a painting rather than a photograph.....? ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the description (Reproduction of the only known photograph of Ebenezer Cobb Morley), no. Ffahm (Talk) 15:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  EC Morley 

message: Another non-World Cup football templates nominated for deletion at WP:TFD on 28 December. - Darwinek (talk) 01:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Templates 

message: There is a new football article, James Baird (footballer).  Concerns have been raised over notability. --Popplewick (talk) 11:42, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Update to the above: this article is now up for deletion  here. --Popplewick (talk) 16:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FYI 

message: Anyone here a good authority on Nigerian football? The article Baba Onos has caught my attention - as well as being written from a fannish point of view, all of the teams this person has played for are redlinks and a Google search  comes up with nothing except Wikipedia and a couple of FIFA 2008 forums, including what appears to be spam . Have flagged as a probably hoax and will duly prod, unless I can find some proof of authenticity or notability. Anyone have any idea? Qwghlm (talk) 12:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not many references, teams he played for redlinked and i have heard of the african Alan Shearer, but it is deiently not him, so i would leave it down to a person more experienced in this department.  Sunderland06  13:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I listed this for deletion as a hoax as per . Take a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Baba Onos.   Jhony  |  Talk   15:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks - though in future please try prodding such articles first - articles should only be nominated for AfD one all other means of deletion are exhausted. Qwghlm (talk) 16:00, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hoax/notability query 

message: Keep an eye on this one, the vandalism already seems to be flying in...... ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: R.I.P. --necronudist (talk) 12:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Phil O'Donnell]] 

message: Hi, I am not sure if this is the right place to raise this issue. I am concerned about the behaviour of User:Fasach Nua. I have contributed to Ireland national football team (IFA) and believe this article should be maintained. However Fasnach wants this article merged with Northern Ireland national football team. I have also contributed to Dual Irish international footballers. Fasnach is now re-editing this page in an inappropriate manner. This seems to me to be bullying and harassment. Is their someone here willing to mediate in this situation. Fasnach actions are seriously spoiling my enjoyment of Wiki. Djln--Djln (talk) 18:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Fasach Nua]] 

message: Out of interest, has there ever been any drive to get people to create SVG versions of the fair-use club badges? Chris Cunningham (talk) 22:54, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Logos Wiggy! (talk) 23:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  SVG badges 

message: In writing an article on Rob Swire, Manchester United's physio, I referenced an interview with him from Physioroom.com. However, it appears that all links from that website have been blacklisted. Does anyone know why this is, and how I can get it un-blacklisted? – PeeJay 23:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist#Proposed removals. Chris Cunningham (talk) 23:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Physioroom.com 

message: Does anyone know anything about this player Ivan Ramis Barrios? The entry is merely an infobox and seriously needs some text. I've added a line as per the infobox but only per the infobox and not from any sources. Peanut4 (talk) 02:00, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto with this one - Juan Manuel Gómez Sánchez Peanut4 (talk) 02:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ivan Ramis Barrios 

message: Just noticed this WP, but I'm left wondering just why do we have a WP on Shef. Wednesday. Do we really need it? D.M.N. (talk) 19:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why worry about whether we "need" it? The idea of projects is for people with similar interests to get together to improve Wikipedia. The more the merrier. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:32, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Should really be turned into a WP:WPF taskforce, along with the United one, as has been done with other clubs already. Qwghlm (talk) 11:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Sheffield Wednesday]] 

message: I am currently working on Tampines Rovers FC. If I can find enough referenced information to write short "Stadium" and "Supporters" sections, the article may become Wikipedia's first GA on a football club located outside Europe and South America. The table in "Current squad" should be replaced with the templates, but how do I use them? --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 14:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Like this:





List all the players in that format and place  halfway down the list to make two columns. Position should be GK for goalkeeper, DF for defender, MF for midfielder or FW for forward. WATP (talk) • (contribs) 14:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I started it for you: Template:Tampines Rovers FC squad. Please check for errors. Have fun! -- Alexf(Talk/Contribs) 14:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How do I arrange the players? By name, position, shirt number or something else? --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 16:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For what I've seen, and done in the several templates I worked on, they usually go by number. You may also want to add Position to it. -- Alexf(Talk/Contribs) 16:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Somebody else has formatted the squad list using the template. A big round of applause goes to...PeeJay2K3! --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 02:00, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could someone explain to me how to use the football squad templates? 

message: Can we add languages spoken to manager infoboxes? I think it would be a good idea, especially for national team managers. Ademkader (talk) 23:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For once I'd oppose. This can rarely be properly verified for Continental managers (who routinely speak several) and it's rare that it even matters that much. Chris Cunningham (talk) 23:24, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded - I don't think it's that important, and how on earth would we verify it. Also, how much do they have to know to be able to be classed as speaking a language? пﮟოьεԻ 57 23:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. My understanding is the infobox serves as guide to the rest of the article a little like the lead but with the key info in one handy place. I don't think many entries would even include the info about other languages so neither should the infobox. Peanut4 (talk) 00:04, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, a list of languages spoken should be included in the article, not an infobox. GiantSnowman (talk) 21:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, convinced. Let's think about adding languages to the articles though. Some game databases (championship manager, football manager etc) have the information.Ademkader (talk) 15:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, please. Game databases are not reliable sources.   Jhony  |  Talk   15:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manager infoboxes 

message: As an FYI, the main football (soccer) article is now located at association football following it's requested move. If editing old articles, please take Do not change links to redirects that are not broken into account, you only really need to change double redirects if you come across them. 19:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that a consensus has been reached (whether we approve of the result or not) can we now all agree to accept the article name and move on. We should all have one aim in view  - to improve the quality of (association) football articles on WP.  --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 19:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone oughta fix the link on the various Year in association football pages... --Madcynic (talk) 15:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm doing it, albeit a little slowly - see below. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Football (soccer) - Association football RM completed 

message: Can anyone think of a specific reason why this article should be deleted? It seems like a prime candidate for deletion to me, but I can't think of a decent reason to put in the AfD. – PeeJay 22:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:Listcruft is my first thought. Or maybe Wikipedia:Overlistification#Trivia/Trivial Lists Peanut4 (talk) 22:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would think this is more suited to being a category: as an article it is not informative.  Based on my experience with a category of players with over 100 caps, be warned that some editors but not me) will claim that even such an obvious round number is an arbitrary cut off.  If there is to be such a basic restriction as transfers including English clubs only, this ought to be in the title, otherwise the title does not describe the article.  Kevin McE (talk) 21:28, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This article already basically exists but at Transfer (football)#Highest transfer fees and that is a complete list of world transfers not an arbitrary value cut off point and not limited to those including English teams. Peanut4 (talk) 21:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Football players transferred for over £10,000,000]] 

message: Hmmm... Any thoughts on this one, created earlier today?  --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 19:27, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Completely inappropriate, IMO. The article has no inclusion criteria and it is extremely hard to keep it up to date. I propose that it be PRODded. – PeeJay 19:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Try WP:NOT, not a news source or a directory particularly. Defo support prodding it. Peanut4 (talk) 20:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[International football results]] 

message: could someone take a look- It was speedied, and I changed it to Prod, but I'm out of my depth here.DGG (talk) 04:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It certainly does not seem appropriate that the editor who started the article (and many similar ones) simply deleted the prod for deletion with neither improvement nor justification. Kevin McE (talk) 21:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems like a prime candidate for an AfD discussion then. - fchd (talk) 21:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we need some project consensus on notability here.   has been on a roll of late, creating many articles linked from List of non-national representative teams in men's football and Template:Non-FIFA teams, but I have a hard time understanding how many of them are notable.  I'd prefer to see some project consensus on this issue first so that the same discussion isn't made several times in several AfD discussions.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really think we need a notability guideline for non-competitive representative teams. Articles like these have a notability grade that is proportional to the independent coverage they received, as already stated in WP:N. --Angelo (talk) 22:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough.  Let the AfDs begin!  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What about Brittany national football team, although they have at least managed a second game against Cameroon. Still don't look at all notable. I expect the Cameroon game was a World Cup warm up and plenty of teams play these against local league sides or the equivalent but it doesn't make them notable. Peanut4 (talk) 16:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And most of the other ones on the Non-FIFA/Non-NF-Board Teams template as well - e.g. Chuuk, Virgin Gorda, Murcia etc. - fchd (talk) 17:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's good to see that Martin Shaw is the head coach at Yap. I was wondering what he had been up to since Judge John Deed finished!  Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 17:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Normandy national football team]] 

message: Can somebody please rate Jack Pelter, Thanks.  Sunderland06  15:16, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Jack Pelter]] 

message: You'll like this one, Arsenal football transfers, created a few minutes ago!!  I'll prod it in half an hour or so.  --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 11:05, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I nodded off and forgot about this but I see someone speedied it on its way out of the door...  --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 06:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arsenal football transfers 

message: A few hours ago, User:Chanheigeorge moved Lee A. Martin, Lee B. Martin and Lee R. Martin to Lee Martin (defender born 1968), Lee Martin (goalkeeper born 1968) and Lee Martin (footballer born 1987) respectively, without discussion. I have reverted the moves for now, as I recall a discussion about these pages happening not too long ago, most likely instigated by myself. I can see where User:Chanheigeorge is coming from with these suggested article names, but the use of positions as disambiguators is not a popular one, especially since Lee A. Martin also played as a midfielder and even a striker for Manchester United on occasion. Suggestions please. – PeeJay 12:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry if I didn't know that there was a discussion before. My rationale comes from that none of the three players use their middle initials in the football world (as far as I know), so using them in the title is certainly not the best way of identifying these players. If Lee A. Martin is primarily a defender (I'm not sure how often he's used in other positions, but almost all outfield players can be and has been used in other positions), then I think Lee Martin (defender) (or Lee Martin (defender born 1968)) is a good enough (and better) title. And who is to say we won't have some politician or musician or footballer named "Lee Martin" with the middle initial A (or B or R) in the future? Chanheigeorge (talk) 07:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What about Lee Martin (footballer born February 1968) and Lee Martin (footballer born September 1968)......? ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's quite clumsy. Again, I don't see why Lee Martin (defender born 1968) is not a good enough title, as it disambs with the other two Lee Martins. That he also played other positions occasionally is beside the point. Almost all famous people have multiple roles, e.g. "XYZ (musician)" may also act in a few movies, that doesn't make it a bad title, as long as he/she is identified as primarily a musician, or identified by all that he/she has been a musician. Same case applies here. Chanheigeorge (talk) 19:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Although this isn't a solution to the overall situation, it may help a little. Lee Martin (footballer) currently redirects to Lee Martin, which includes non-footballers. How about Lee Martin (footballer) being a separate disambig page? Peanut4 (talk) 21:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I should add that I consider them only to be "interim" solutions that at least improves on the current titles. If there's a discussion and consensus on their final titles, I'm all for it. On a final note, you may be surprised to see this, but according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)#Qualifier between bracketing parentheses, Years of birth and death should not be used in a page title to distinguish between people of the same name. Chanheigeorge (talk) 21:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lee Martin... again 

message: Template: has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — --Howard the Duck 17:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  TfD nomination of [[:Template:{{ucfirst:Infobox football tournament}}]] 

message: Nanonic and myself have made a new feed for the New Article bot. User:AlexNewArtBot scrapes all new articles and puts suspected Association football related articles into User:AlexNewArtBot/AssociationFootballSearchResult based on a set of rules at User:AlexNewArtBot/AssociationFootball. There is also a log at User:AlexNewArtBot/AssociationFootballLog explaining the rules and points scored that sent an article to the search results (the log is cleared every day, so try to look into the history of the log). I've added this to the bottom of WP:WPF/NEW as a test to make sure it isn't giving too many false positives and may tweak the rules further, if you have any ideas on its usefulness or wish to amend the rules yourself - go ahead, be bold.
This is not intended to replace the current New Page system, we just wanted to have something to show all those articles that aren't reported on WP:FOOTY pages. Enjoy Foxhill (talk) 19:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is really good, thanks a lot. I have made some additions and been bold as suggested - they are admittedly UK/Europe biased. Could you look them over and see if they are all OK? Qwghlm (talk) 12:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: They look fine to me at the mo, the bot is run between 15:00 and 19:00 (UTC) daily (takes a long time to do the 200 odd tasks it has) so we'll see if it needs any further tweaking after that. Nanonic (talk) 15:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Article Bot 

message: At the FAC for Stocksbridge Park Steels, a user has flagged up that the two logos and two graphs should not be in the JPG format.  The graphs should apparently be in SVG, which he says should be easy enough for me to do as I originally uploaded them, however I only have access to MS Paint and that doesn't seem to offer the option to save in SVG format.  Is there anybody who has access to something more sophisticated that I could email the original XLS documents to who could turn them into SVG files for me?  Similarly he says the two club badges should be PNG files, and pointed me to this tutorial, which I can't follow.  Would anyone be able to turn the two images into PNGs for me?
(or alternatively does anyone know of the existence of any sort of image-assistance-for-poor-saps-who-don't-have-Photoshop type project.....?)
Thanks in advance to anyone who can help out!!!!!
Cheers, ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Disregard the above, I've now discovered the graphic lab...... ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was going to tell you "send me all the stuff", but as I can see you don't need this anymore... Good luck! :) --Angelo (talk) 09:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image help 

message: Does anyone know of a website which lists the champions of each country for a certain year on the same page? I have done so at 2007 in association football#National champions, but I had to go to each individual league article (over 200 of them!!) to work it out. I've got 1902-2006 to do (1889-1901 is done as there were fewer championships in those days), so I'm try to reduce the workload a little... Thanks, пﮟოьεԻ 57 10:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Champions by year 

message: PeeJay just advised me a move request regarding Red Star Belgrade article is waiting for a closure since two months. I declined to close the discussion in order to avoid a potential conflict of interests as I directly participated in the discussion, voicing my opposition to the proposal, so it would be great if some other admin around could close this discussion and take a decision. Thank you. --Angelo (talk) 13:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red Star Belgrade move proposal 

message: Another WikiProject has been added to our list - WikiProject Scottish football - so maybe it's time to finally agree on some caveats for creation. So, should we -
*request that only taskforces are created
*request that all such taskforces should be created with prior discussion either here or at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Task forces/Work groups
*accept all proposals that have attracted the interest of a certain number of editors
Your thoughts on this. Nanonic (talk) 00:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've started draughting some guidelines at User:Foxhill/content to add/taskforces that could be added to the project's pages. Feel free to amend or add to these. Cheers, Foxhill (talk) 04:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Can I get a couple of people to read through the above guide and comment on it's readability/usefulness/correctness? If it seems ok, then I'll move it across to Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Task forces and sub-projects Nanonic (talk) 22:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Following no dissent (or comments at all..) on this, I've been bold and moved them across. If you wish to edit or amend these or remove or add sections or just plain don't like them - feel free to change them. Nanonic (talk) 21:19, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sub-project/Taskforce reform 

message: I found these two entries today for Pan Pierre Koulibaly and Paul Koulibaly. It looks like it's for the same player but there are some slight differences, i.e. position and squad number, other than the name. Would anyone else object to Paul Koulibaly being redirected to Pan Pierre Koulibaly? Peanut4 (talk) 00:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are different stats for both   - and they look like they are distinct people according to a BBC report . Confusingly their names are often spelt with a 'C' rather than a 'K' . Could they be brothers - even twins perhaps? Qwghlm (talk) 01:07, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's why I asked. I wondered if they were twins. But why do they have the same name and same photo on the infobox? I'll have another look before proceeding with anything else though. Peanut4 (talk) 01:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The BBC report (which lists them both as defenders) and the dzfoot.com report on the Algeria match clearly show they are different people. So which one is actually in the picture? Peanut4 (talk) 01:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: (Edit conflict) I'd edit the articles down to only things that correspond to the links given for now. As for the photo, comment it out for now until any further sleuthing brings it up. Maybe if they're twins it doesnt really matter? :) Qwghlm (talk) 01:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've commented out the image for Paul Koulibaly since the caption says Pan Pierre and made some slight alterations. This is why I hate unreferenced entries, you simply don't know what to trust from what is written here. Both the external links bring up zero playing data. Peanut4 (talk) 01:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Keba Paul Koulibaly is a defender for EFO, and is not the same player as the striker Pan Pierre Koulibaly (some detail here: ). Best regards. Jogurney (talk) 01:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work Jogurney. Peanut4 (talk) 01:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Koulibaly 

message: Notable or not? – PeeJay 18:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say "probably", the reference and deleted image give the article weight and it could possibly be turned into a better stub from google. As a variant in itself - Amputee Soccer would be notable and gets a few good google hits. 62.136.112.104 (talk) 18:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Amputee Soccer Championship, Central America]] 

message: (Originally posted to Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous.)
* 
The above user has edited the articles of several Football Clubs, changing the capacity and locations. I reverted one of these edits (their first), but given the extent of their changes - and the fact that on the face of it the changes appear as though they may be valid - can anyone either back them up or dispute their edits? (And if the latter, can someone with a rollback script take care of things?) Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 22:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Football club sizes 

message: The following line in the Premier League#Foundation section seems to be either WP:POV or WP:OR. I think it needs a reference. 
This was considered necessary so that English clubs could once again compete with and beat the best of Europe, while attracting the best talent in the world, something which in 1991 seemed practically unthinkable. Peanut4 (talk) 23:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the almost total dominance of English clubs in Europe just 10 years earlier using largely homegrown players, I would lean towards POV... пﮟოьεԻ 57 23:06, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added something of a link which does address some of the assertions although if someone could find a better one, I'd feel happier about this line. Peanut4 (talk) 01:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure that the Premier League is a WP:RS on this issue! :) пﮟოьεԻ 57 10:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not unhappy about the Premier League website being a reliable source, just that I don't think it addresses all the claims being made. It certainly mentions about attracting talent, but not really about being the best in Europe, just competing again following the Heysel ban. Peanut4 (talk) 20:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Premier League POV / OR 

message: User:Zombie433 (talk • contribs) has edited a number of football articles, but, sadly, his sources were not reliable. It is worth looking over his contributions, fix what should be fixed, and tell him in German to stop, as it seems that he doesn't speak English.   Jhony  |  Talk   14:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Zombie433]] 

message: I wonder if linking to player's image in infobox (see difference between revisions) is allowed?   Jhony  |  Talk   16:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Images should be imported if properly licensed. Chris Cunningham (talk) 16:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to player's image 

message: Can somebody please rate this article as i think it is better than stub. Thanks.  Sunderland06  19:48, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Woody (talk) 00:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Easington Colliery A.F.C.]] 

message: In the process of compiling lists of football transfers such as List of English football transfers Winter 2007-08, one often comes across transfers where the fee is not disclosed by either club. However, sometimes the fee will be reported as fact by one or two sources, sometimes reputable ones. In these cases, should the fee be recorded here as "Undisclosed" or should we record the fee as reported in the aforementioned sources? Case in point, the fee for Hogan Ephraim's transfer to Queens Park Rangers from West Ham United was undisclosed by either club, but the Telegraph reported the fee as £800k (). One editor of the List of English football transfers Winter 2007-08 article believes that the Telegraph is reputable enough for the transfer fee to be believed, whereas I believe that the fee should still be recorded as Undisclosed. – PeeJay 22:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This discussion seems to be reaching boiling point now. It could really do with a few more third-party contributors. – PeeJay 20:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reporting transfer fees 

message: I cleaned up Carlos Edwards to the best of my ability but i do not know if i have done it to the standard of wikipedia, i may have splashed citation needed a bit to much, i would appreciate some feedback on cleaning up football articles i know to put convert template on the height, & ndash ; (without spaces) in seasons, match scores, etc. And some other formatting issues. Thanks.  Sunderland06  23:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up on [[Carlos Edwards]] 

message: Courtesy of this comment and further discussion, I'm bringing this up here. I've always used the plural form for teams, the major UK media outlets use it for teams, and even the articles which don't use it consistently all seem to lapse into it randomly (lots of uses of the word they where it would be the correct form in singular). For the sake of having something to point to when making changes in future, could we generate some consensus on which form should be used for British teams? I'm point out that the Music WikiProject already has an identical ruling for UK bands. Chris Cunningham (talk) 00:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My own personal rule is to use the plural when referring to the club as a group of players, and the singular when referring to the club as an organisational entity. For example, "Manchester United F.C. was formed in 1878" but "they have won the FA Cup a record 11 times". See what I mean? – PeeJay 00:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Strictly either is fine. But like you say, most if not all media sources will use plural, e.g. Manchester United are, and that's my preference. Peanut4 (talk) 00:47, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit conflict) So, when referring to a football club as "the club" in prose, you would also say "the club are" every time? Personally, again, it depends on context. For example, "Wikipedia F.C. was formed in the year 9999 and is one of the youngest clubs in existence. They are looking to sign a new player in the January transfer window." – PeeJay 00:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is maddeningly inconsistent to me (one of the things I love about the English language is how little metaphysical analysis it takes to assign a pronoun), and I'd rather we didn't mix and match. At the very least, we need every article either starting with "teamname is a football club from someplace" or "teamname are a football club from someplace" consistently. And I reckon the latter's the way to go. British media outlets, as pointed out, use the plural exclusively in the sports sections. Chris Cunningham (talk) 00:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

text: If you use Wikipedia F.C. is ... You should then say It is... Otherwise like Chris says it's inconsistent. Peanut4 (talk) 01:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: IMO, consistency is irrelevant to this topic. You should use the appropriate verb for the sentence regardless of whether it's the same verb form as in the sentence before it. – PeeJay 01:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not about the verb but the antecedent personal pronoun. They refers to a previous plural noun, and hence therefore a plural verb form. It refers to a previous singular noun, and hence therefore a singular verb form. If you use they are in a later sentence you imply the previous noun that they refers to is also plural and hence Manchester United are from your previous suggestion. Peanut4 (talk) 01:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure what consensus on this would achieve, the use of collective nouns in both the singular and plural is a part of accepted British English (and apparently distinct from the American English usage). We can say that we would prefer one or the other or both for featured content (to avoid all the 'what are you talking about' discussions on FAC) but to try and enforce the usage of one particular style of grammar would seem to go against the spirit of WP:MOS in particular - "Insisting on a single term or a single usage as the only correct option does not serve well the purposes of an international encyclopedia." The MOS says that if I write an article I can write it in BrEng, making another guideline that says 'sure you can write most of it in BrEng, just use AmEng grammar for the following' strikes me as ludicrous. 62.136.112.104 (talk) 00:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  It achieves cross-article consistency. On a subject like phosphorous or polar bear or Nikola Tesla there's a good reason not to insist on a particular interpretation, but to fail to have any consistency over a domain as limited as, say, the clubs in the Scottish Premier League - twelve articles - is silly. Projects can overrule the master MoS if they have a valid reason to. Chris Cunningham (talk) 01:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But is there a valid reason to do so? Football clubs, musical groups, etc. all fall into the category of Collective nouns, therefore they use the discretionary plural. This means that they can use either the singular or the plural depending on context, as I have said. Furthermore, with regard to British media outlets, they use the plural almost exclusively because they almost exclusively refer to football clubs as groups of players, rather than as organisational entities. – PeeJay 01:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The valid reason is consistency. This "group of individuals versus an organisational entity" argument is commonly-used, but not seen in practice in the domain in question. If the sports pages of every major media outlet in the UK can achieve this ("Manchester United have turned down an offer from Newcastle for Wes Brown" - I hardly think they took it to a show of hands in the dressing room), then I don't see why we can't. By the way, the distinction you've provided is used by the authorities as a description of common usage, rather than a prescription; I don't believe any of them go so far as to mandate it, precisely because of the heavy disagreement on the issue. Which is why it's a project MoS issue rather than a wider grammatical one that I'd take upstream. Chris Cunningham (talk) 07:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  By the way, our own MoS currently contains this gem of boilerplate: "Template FC plays their home matches on..." That isn't even literate. Chris Cunningham (talk) 08:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think my opinion would be better summed up as a case of "group of people affiliated to the club (i.e. board members, players, coaching staff, etc.)" vs "organisational entity". "Manchester United have turned down an offer from Newcastle for Wes Brown" is correct as it was a decision made by a group of people representing the club, rather than the club itself making the decision. – PeeJay 12:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

text: And yes, I agree, the MoS needs fixing. – PeeJay 12:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  British teams, and the use of the plural form for collective nouns 

message: Hello, I search a website who give the selection of africans player for the CAN2008!Thanks a lot--PAULOM37 (talk) 13:56, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caps for Africans player 

message: :Image:U20-WorldCup2007-Okotie-Onka edit2.jpg is now a Featured Picture (nom) 84.70.79.28 (talk) 16:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  First featured picture - yay etc 

message: On inserting a league table on the new article The Football League 1891-92, I honestly don't have a clue how to do it. Blueanode (talk) 18:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.   --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 18:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assistance needed 

message: If anyone had a look at this FAC and was scared off by all the technobabble about image formats, that's now all been resolved (hopefully!!) so feel free to stop by and comment purely on the merits of the article itself...... ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Stocksbridge Park Steels F.C.]] 

message: Should Martin Galvan be deleted? I think so (non-notable) but don't really know how to properly start the process. -- Alexf(Talk/Contribs) 00:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the article should be as he hasn't played in a fully-professional league. The AfD process is explained in very simple terms at WP:AfD. пﮟოьεԻ 57 00:32, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I followed the instructions to: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martin Galvan. Thanks. -- Alexf(Talk/Contribs) 01:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Martin Galvan]] AfD? 

message: Someone has moved this page to Association Football in England without disscusion. It needs an Admin to revert the move. josh (talk) 14:38, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The page is currently incorrectly at Association Football in England - it should be Association football in England. Peanut4 (talk) 15:02, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it should have been left at Football in England. Chandlertalk 15:18, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly yes, but Association Football in England is definitely wrong. Should either be Association football in England or Football in England. Peanut4 (talk) 15:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I've fixed the Association football in England and Ffootball in England to redirect to Football in England as well (I think I have, anyway). Lovely multidirectional redirects there were ;-) cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Football in England]] 

message: I notice the page Wing Forward has been changed to a redirect to inside forward. I was of the belief Wing Forward was actually an outside forward not inside forward, as the originaly text implied. Peanut4 (talk) 18:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay outside forward doesn't exist but it seems bizarelly outside right and outside left both do. Peanut4 (talk) 19:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Outside right and Outside left should be merged to create Outside forward, and Wing forward should redirect to Outside forward. – PeeJay 19:06, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I agree but only if I'm right that wing forward is actually an outside forward and not inside forward. Peanut4 (talk) 19:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure the positions are exactly equivalent, but I'd say a Wing forward is closer to being an Outside forward than an Inside forward. – PeeJay 19:15, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wing forward 

message: I wonder if Arsenal articles are organised "from above" because a lot of rather small wikis have huge articles for the local dimensions. Maybe I didn't hear about it. For just two examples see
here and here
What do you think? -Lemmy- (talk) 21:08, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what you mean really, but I can say that the reason that some teams such as Swindon Town F.C. have so many interwikis with a similar version is due to a former drive on those wiki's to get all English clubs translated across, an aborted attempt can be seen at the Italian wiki article for the team. Foxhill (talk) 22:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly English clubs draw the biggest interest from abroad but what I meant was that the Arsenal articles are "too good" to be just, for example, the labor from one or more Icelandic Arsenal supporter(s).The strange thing is that almost all the articles are very long. Plus it's in tiny Wikis where there can't exist that many Gooners. My idea is that the club hired some native speakers to translate some articles.-Lemmy- (talk) 17:20, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Arsenal article was one of the first football articles to be featured on en:, and remains one of the best we have. Many wikipedias have projects to get featured articles in other languages translated. Arsenal are probably the highest profile club of those that have FAs here, so the article is likely to be a high-priority translation. I also think you underestimate the global nature of the fanbase of the biggest clubs. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd also suggest that clubs such as Arsenal probably have better things to do with their time and money than hire Icelandic speakers to translate Wikipedia articles...... ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  International Arsenal FC articles organised? 

message: Football at the 1896 Summer Olympics (unofficial) has been prodded. 132.205.44.5 (talk) 23:21, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Has now been poked with a big AfD stick. Woody (talk) 14:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Football at the 1896 Summer Olympics (unofficial) at WP:PROD 

message: These articles are currently being disscussed about merging, Hardenhuish Park with Chippenham Town F.C. here Talk:Chippenham Town F.C. and Filtrona Park with South Shields F.C. here Talk:South Shields F.C.. Sunderland06  23:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging 

message: *2007 UEFA Champions League Final - 0 Broken/Suspicious Links
*Arsenal F.C. - 2 Broken/Suspicious Links done Woody (talk) 18:20, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: be aware that when publishers archive their articles on their own site, they don't always archive same version as the original. In particular, there was one in Roy of the Rovers, a piece from the Scotsman where the software tool had found a new link to replace the dead one. However the new link on the Scotsman website had less content than the webarchived version. I only noticed because the omitted content happened to be the bit quoted in the article footnote. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 14:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As Struway's example shows, archive.org's Wayback Machine can be invaluable for those hard to replace links. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:04, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Broken Links - Featured Articles 

message: Could someone knowledgeable please take a look at User:Lucy-marie's recent football-related contributions. She's already moved Kit (football) to Kit (Association football) (with a capital A), has 3 or 4 other moves/mergers requested, and has been metricating/"cleaning up" association football, cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, now Football (soccer) has become Association football (missed that discussion), that's probably driving her contributions.  Anyway, I've moved the Kit page back to the one with a small 'a' and I'll have a look at the other bits and pieces... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The edits seem well-meaning, but some of the recent ones by User:Lucy-marie raise concern - e.g. proposing Laws of the Game is moved to Laws of association Football, and proposing a merge of Referee (football) with Assistant referee.  The user has previously been involved in controversy renaming London building articles and proposing the merger of '24' characters. Paulbrock (talk) 03:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page moves and mergers 

message: I am thinking of creating an article for this Dutch club, but wonder if it is notable enough - it is currently amateur and my very limited knowledge of both Dutch football and the Dutch language means I can't see if they used to be in a professional league. The club's official history is at  if anyone would be kind enough to translate for me...GiantSnowman (talk) 15:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As a Dutchman, I think this club is most definitely notable. They play in the highest amateur league of the country, the third tier of football in the Netherlands. The club's rivalry with IJsselmeervogels has been well documented, and has inspired a number of (award winning?) documentaries. Technically speaking Spakenburg is an amateur club, but a loop hole in the rules allows the players to be paid, making it a de facto professional club. Spakenburg has also played in the KNVB Cup. So yes, SV Spakenburg would definitely be notable enough for Wikipedia. I have created a number of articles about other Hoofdklasse clubs myself, such as HHC Hardenberg, Be Quick 1887, ASWH, Quick Boys, VV Bennekom and Ter Leede. AecisBrievenbus 16:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the quick reply Aecis, I though it would be notable as it many other teams in the same 'amateur' league have club articles. I'm going to create the article then, and if it is AfDed then so be it! GiantSnowman (talk) 16:08, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead, I'll see what I can find in Dutch sources to expand on what you will write. AecisBrievenbus 16:10, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I've created a very basic stub, any help expanding will be greatly appreciated. GiantSnowman (talk) 16:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[SV Spakenburg]] 

message: Hi there. Can an experienced participant of the WikiProject please come to this discussion and clarify if the guideline for the full list of football players with dual nationality also applies for lists for individual countries. Thanks in advance. --Leyo 12:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[List of Swiss football players with dual nationality]] 

message: From a discussion relating to the 2007 UEFA Champions League Final being the article of the day, a user has proposed the following - 
*On first reference, do not use the word "football" without a qualifier. Call it American football, football (soccer), soccer, Australian rules football, etc. Subsequent references can simply say "football."
Discussion continues at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Varieties of football on first reference. 84.69.169.60 (talk) 19:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As mentioned a few sections up the page, this matter is already under discussion at the Village Pump. FWIW, I am quite happy using association football (generally shown as football) when creating a new article,  but never soccer; I'll leave that to our American colleagues.  --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 05:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have merged the sections. Lets try and keep the discussion in one place. Woody (talk) 11:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry. I thought this was the best place for it considering the lack of interest it initially generated on the VP, but the discussion has gotten busier there. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem, it was good that you did bring it to our attention. I think that centralised discussion is better than cross-posting. Woody (talk) 00:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion on WP:VPP 

message: Does anyone know of any article which contains a reasonably decent full-length free-use photo of a player in action from the 1970s or 80s?  I've trawled through dozens of articles this morning but just can't find such a photo..... ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Does this one cut it, or are you looking for an isolated shot of just the player? -  Dudesleeper  Talk 15:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That one would be OK except that it's a fair use image so I couldn't use it.  To clarify my query, I'm doing some work on Kit (association football) and was hoping to include an image showing the kit "fashions" of the 70s and 80s...... ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are a few pics on commons that may be of use (including this one), if not - I would suggest looking through the Agencia Brasil archives. All ABr pics are public domain (even recent ones like this. There are some other pics used on the portal that may be of use too. 62.136.167.175 (talk) 16:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

text: You can also use MayFlower to search commons (think flickr, for commons, and just as annoying to navigate). Nanonic (talk) 18:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image enquiry 

message: Just after editing the John Paul McBride article and noticed this note regarding templates and sorting the article. 
<--Please use Macbride, i.e. with an 'a', to assist category sorting-->

 
I am wanting to know why an 'a' must be included to enable easier sorting of the article. Using this compleatly changes the way the name is presented and pronounced. There should not be discrimination to make things easier to sort. Gorillamusic (talk) 18:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't to make it easier to sort, and it doesn't affect anything other than the listings on the Category pages. What it does, is to make all names spelt the same apart from the Mc or Mac appear together on the Category pages. So that if you're looking for a person called something that sounds like McKenzie but you don't know the exact spelling out of Mackenzie, McKenzie, MacKenzie, you'll find all the variations together rather than possibly several pages apart. It's not the sort of thing people necessarily notice, but this is the way they do it in the telephone directory and in the Encyclopedia Britannica as well. hope this helps, cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template Question 

message: A number of subcategories of :Category:Football (soccer) players by competition are on the verge of becoming overpopulated. See for instance :Category:Serie A players, :Category:Premier League players, :Category:The Football League players and :Category:First Bundesliga footballers. Splitting them might be an option, but how? By position (e.g. :Category:Serie A goalkeepers) or by nationality (e.g. :Category:Fooian Serie A players or :Category:Serie A players from Foo)? AecisBrievenbus 19:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would just get rid of them altogether, I have never seen the point. Qwghlm (talk) 20:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Why not restrict them to players currently playing in the competition? So :Category:Premier League players would only include players currently playing for a club in the Premier League, etc. That's what I'd expect from a category titled like that anyway. - MTC (talk) 21:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Get rid of them. They'll get overpopulated and in the end, become useless. D.M.N. (talk) 21:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Football (soccer) players by competition 

message: The following have been part of the Wikipedia v1.0 assessments since October 2007 -
:FL-Class - Template-Class - List-Class - Category-Class - Disambig-Class
as seen at Template:Cat class (used in assessment cat's such as :Category:A-Class football in England articles) and at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Index. 
If anyone is bored enough, I think we should consider adding some of these to the template, thinking mainly FL and List (and creating the necessary sub-cats of course). Nanonic (talk) 22:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Really?  The page on assessments (Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team/Assessment) still has them listed as non-standard grades, though it does look like the bot picks up List-class now. Paulbrock (talk) 22:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia v1.0, new classes 

message: Please keep an eye on all edits related to Dejan Marić. The article Dejan Marić has been speedied for non-notability three times (it's now salted), Dejan Maric has been speedied for G7 (blanked by author). The consensus during the recent AFD discussion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dejan Marić was also that the subject was not notable enough for Wikipedia. The subject, , his probable sockpuppets/meatpuppets  and , and a number of IP addresses, including ,  and , continue to add this user to FK Igalo. Not only has he been deemed not notable enough, according to the deleted article, the subject plays for the youth academy of the English side Newton Abbot A.F.C.. AecisBrievenbus 00:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dejan Marić 

message: can you all add this to your watch list as someone keeps adding Rivaldo to the squad list atm.Skitzo (talk) 11:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've sprotected both it and the Rivaldo articles, as its coming from a variety of IP addresses. Qwghlm (talk) 18:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Leicester City F.C.]] 

message: Has anyone seen this portal? I only came across it because it's been categorised in :Category:Football (soccer). Personally, I don't see any need for such a portal, and perhaps it should be deleted. It's only been in existence since the end of 2007 anyway. – PeeJay 18:49, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's up for MFD. D.M.N. (talk) 21:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed it is. I put it there :-D I had meant to come here and mention that earlier, but I forgot. – PeeJay 21:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Portal:English football]] 

message: I keep seeing comments such as team is below step x or non-world cup squad templates not allowed in deletion discussions commenting on prior consensus at WP:WPF. This is all fine and dandy but would someone please just list all of these decisions on a page somewhere where we can all see them? It's kinda annoying to tell someone 'oh you can't do that because there is a consensus not to do so on WikiProject Football' to which they reply 'oh yeah? where? show me' and I can't. 86.21.74.40 (talk) 08:43, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There's an archive of outcomes of football related deletion discussions at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Deletion archive. Most other discussions are ikely to be in the archives of this page. I guess it might be an idea to put links to some of the recurring ones onto Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Notability. Oldelpaso (talk) 11:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the templates, I have a list that links to the discussion, as well as all the subsequent deletions at User:Neier/Soccer templates.  It wouldn't bother me if someone wanted to move it to the project workspace. Neier (talk) 22:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Past consensus' 

message: Anyone care to take a look at this FAC?  It's been open for three weeks (since 2007 in fact :-) ) but seems to have gone a bit dormant.......... ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like no FAC closes have happened in nearly a fortnight. From looking at Raul's talk page the next batch of closes will happen later today, which will no doubt result in a promotion. Oldelpaso (talk) 10:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Stocksbridge Park Steels F.C.]] 

message: Should the John O'Toole (footballer) artice be moved to John-Joe O'Toole? Kingjamie (talk) 23:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Depends what he's most commonly known as. If most people refer to him as John, then the article should remain where it is. However, if he prefers to be known as John-Joe, then it should be moved to reflect that. – PeeJay 23:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Very possibly. A simple search on google shows John-Joe O'Toole from the BBC and Watford's official website. I've never heard of him before so can't say for sure. Even if he isn't moved, I'd certainly set a redirect from John-Joe O'Toole to the current entry. Peanut4 (talk) 23:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My first thought was that this would be about the ex-Everton reserve goalie John O'Toole, but from looking his record up he only made it as far as the bench and then dropped into non-league, and doesn't merit an article. However, his existence means I'd prefer to have this article at John-Joe. Oldelpaso (talk) 10:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[John O'Toole (footballer)]] → [[John-Joe O'Toole]] 

message: How would I go about categorising football coaches? Many of them have never been a manager, so they wouldn't fit in :Category:Football (soccer) managers, and the only other "football people" category we have is :Category:Football (soccer) players. – PeeJay 23:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the category info says "In football (soccer) "manager" is the preferred term for a coach in many countries." and it's a subcat of :Category:Coaches by sport so I'd say whack them in with the managers. Foxhill (talk) 00:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coaches 

message: Can anyone remember who was Kevin Keegan's assistant manager for England? I should really know the answer but I can't remember, and some initial searching has failed to bring clarification. The succession box for Arthur Cox (footballer) said that it was Cox, but I have removed this because it clearly states in this article that Keegan was unable to appoint Cox to the position due to his age, although Cox was given a coaching position. Thanks. --Jameboy (talk) 11:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: His team was Cox, Derek Fazackerley and Les Reed. Who had what role exactly I'm not sure. Oldelpaso (talk) 12:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You might find this article useful. Oldelpaso (talk) 12:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this article he wasn't allowed to hire Arthur Cox on a full time basis. That suggests that he still worked for him but only part time. josh (talk) 23:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keegan's assistant at England 

message: User:Thumperward just tagged this as newsrelease so i think it needs a re-write, i started it but its gunna take a lot of work, any takers? Skitzo (talk) 20:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's going to be that much work. Over the next few weeks I imagine every African Cup player is going to get some free article improvements anyway. Chris Cunningham (talk) 20:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done a fairly radical job on it, removing loads of news site copyvios.  Kevin McE (talk) 22:55, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Cheers. We could still do with more current references in English. He's a fascinatiing player, so with any luck there'll be a press bio released at some point during the Cup. Chris Cunningham (talk) 12:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Richard Kingson]] 

message: I'm not sure if this matter has been settled in the past but there is a lot of (sometimes heated) discussion in regards to the flags placed next to club names on national team pages. A prime example of this is the use of the English flag next to Welsh "exile" clubs playing in the English league system. There have been instances of potential vandalism where flags have been changed, often with what could be described as "politically-charged" discussion. Therefore as a suggestion to put an end to the matter, in my opinion the flag listed next to the club should be that of the national football association of which that particular club is registered with, regardless of which league system they play in.
In which case, flag designation should be as follows:_
1) Member club of a federation playing in a different national structure
i) The six Welsh clubs playing in the English football structure should be represented with the Welsh flag, as all six clubs are members of the Football Association of Wales. Despite the fact that all of the clubs take part in the (English) FA Cup, none of them have any affiliation with the (English) Football Association, nor does the Football Association have any jurisdiction over any matters surrounding the six clubs (this is dealt with by the FAW).
ii) All seven Liechtensteiner clubs are represented with the Liechtenstein flag, as opposed to the Swiss flag, as the clubs are members of the Liechtensteiner Fussballverband, but play in the Swiss football structure due to the lack of a national league. This is in my opinion a precedent for the Welsh clubs in the example above to be represented with the Welsh rather than the English flag.
iii) Toronto FC play in Major League Soccer, in the United States league structure, but are represented with the Canadian flag, also as members of the Canadian Soccer Association.
2) Member club of a federation playing in same national structure but located in another country
Some examples of clubs that are represented with the flag of the the association they are members of :_
i) The New Saints FC from the Welsh Premier League would be represented with the Welsh flag as members of the Football Association of Wales, although as of 2007 they are now located in Oswestry, England.
ii) AS Monaco FC are currently represented with the French flag as members of the Fédération Française de Football.
iii) Derry City, who would be represented with the Republic of Ireland flag as members of the Football Association of Ireland, having joined in 1985 upon special dispensation.
iv) San Marino Calcio, currently represented with the Italian flag as members of the Federazione Italiana Giuoco Calcio.
v) FC Andorra, currently represented with the Spanish flag as members of the Real Federación Española de Fútbol.
I haven't seen such an example but I would imagine Berwick Rangers FC would be represented with the Scottish flag as members of the Scottish Football Association in this case.
Jonzi9 (talk) 02:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We simply shouldn't be using flags at all if there's any potential for ambiguity, per WP:FLAG. Chris Cunningham (talk) 12:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's a possible solution to the issue, I've noticed most other language versions of national football team articles do not use the flags. It would certainly remove any grounds for arguments! Jonzi9 (talk) 15:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flags listed next to clubs on national team pages 

message: This category has been deleted. I don't agree with the decision, but perhaps that's WP... however, there was never a deletion tag on the category page, I (the starter) was never notified, and it never made the list on this project. That can't be right, surely? ArtVandelay13 (talk) 15:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support its reinstatement. Perhaps take it to WP:DRV. The Guinean goalkeeper from yesterday's Africa Cup of Nations game would be in it for a start! пﮟოьεԻ 57 15:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a very useful category, if they dont like it in the mainspace, it should have been used to talkspace like other non-encycopedic but useful categories such as . A deletion review is in order as procedure wasn't followed and I would have made my point on here if I'd have known about it before it was closed. King of the NorthEast 17:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  Could it be tightened? :Category:National football team players unattached to a club or the like? Then it accommodates the interesting situation of a player who can get a national game without being at a club, but isn't a catch-all for unemployed sportsmen. Chris Cunningham (talk) 17:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Added it to DRV. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 09:42, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category:Unattached footballers 

message: For some reason people have the urge to constantly update games even when they are not over. What should we place on the page so this does not happen? michfan2123 (talk) 15:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there should be a note at the top that tells users to refrain from updating games whilst they are in progress, and only to add said updates once the games are finished. Jonzi9 (talk) 16:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

text: There's already . I suppose we could have , but does it really matter that much if people want to have fun updating goal tallies as a game goes on? It's not harming the encyclopedia. Chris Cunningham (talk) 17:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

text: It happens all the time, in Champions League matches, individual cup ties, whatever. I don't think it's really a problem, is it? (I guess as long as the information being added is correct!) - fchd (talk) 17:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Tut tut, people should be watching and appreciating the football, not sitting poised by a computer waiting to update wikipedia! Robotforaday (talk) 17:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well said. --necronudist (talk) 17:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[2008 Africa Cup of Nations]] 

message: According to this article in the Times, FC Limburg is a proposed football team which will be formed by the merger of four existing clubs - Roda, Venlo, Maastricht and Sittard - and will, if it goes ahead, be the fouth best-supported club in the Netherlands. However, does the stub I have created break WP:CRYSTAL? GiantSnowman (talk) 19:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Noting the proposal does not break anything, suggesting that anyone can know how many fans will follow their teams to a new identity would, I suggest.  Kevin McE (talk) 20:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[FC Limburg]] 

message: Familiar topic this one, but in a new area.
Please read this thread Template_talk:Infobox_Stadium#Dimensions_2. The stadiums infobox automatically refers to the grassy area as a "field", rather than a "pitch". The template creator is willing to introduce an element that would permit the variation to pitch, but only if all footy articles followed suit.
I'm not sure whether it's called a football pitch in English-speaking countries all over the world. Can you help fill in this chart with country name and what it's called? (and feel free to expand the table to other countries where it may/may not be an issue) Thanks. --Dweller (talk) 11:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The thoughts of the template creator seem rather like a breach of WP:OWN to me. Anyone who has the required experience of editing templates should be able to add the relevant code whether the creator agrees or not. - fchd (talk) 11:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

text: While I support the argument for article text, regional variances of English in templates sound a bit too much. Besides, the IFAB (which is a half-British organisation) refers to the area as the "Field of Play" in the laws of the game, so I don't have too much problem with the use of the world "field" in this case. Qwghlm (talk) 12:16, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

text: You could just ask them to use "Playing area" and get rid of the whole pitch/field issue. Nanonic (talk) 15:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I like that idea... The Rambling Man (talk) 16:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, works for me too. Wonder if it is OK in American English? Any Americans here? --Dweller (talk) 16:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The average American refers to it as a field, but those in the soccer community will often call it a pitch. Che84 (talk) 17:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Football "field" or football "pitch" (again) 

message: In the rationale against speedy that's at the talk page, there's mention of a team this chap played for being a professional team. Can someone who knows about Italian football confirm this? --Dweller (talk) 13:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: He is claiming that Serie D is fully professional, but its own WP article specfically states it isn't.... ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Serie D is not professional. In fact, all clubs are obliged to use "Dilettantistico" (Amateur) in their official denomination...  --Angelo (talk) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Gianmarco Sogus Honnorat]] 

message: I have reduced the auto-archive time for old threads on this page from 21 to 14 days as I think it's a bit too big as it stands (over 120k!). If anyone objects then feel free to revert, I was just being bold. Thanks. Qwghlm (talk) 20:00, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Auto-archive of this page 

message: What flag would you use for an Australian-born player, who has played for England U-17s, and I believe also England U-19s? I would say England but wanted to check first. Peanut4 (talk) 23:29, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say England as that's the country he's playing for. If he later switches to Australia then it can be changed. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 23:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: England, for the same reasons Terry Butcher and John Barnes don't have the Singaporean and Jamaican flags listed by them. Qwghlm (talk) 23:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's the nation they've represented at the highest international level. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 00:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: No worries. Next daft question then!! I've found he's played for U16, 17, 18, 19, 20. I'm guessing it would be daft to put each one of these in the infobox. Would you even put any in? Peanut4 (talk) 00:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to put 'youth', only list u-21 as distinct. If they've played at u-21 or higher I usually leave out youth altogether. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 00:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Cheers. Looks loads better now. Thanks for all your very prompt answers. Peanut4 (talk) 00:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: WP:FLAG is extremely clear on the issue. if there's any potential for a flag to be ambiguous, we shouldn't be using flags at all. Chris Cunningham (talk) 10:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But we have a clear criteria, and it matches the idea of nationality that is understood throughout football, so there's no ambiguity. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 10:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flags 

message: I haven't been able to determine the exact notability requirements for officials.  There is an AFD here   that has made me curious: [].  I don't know the standards so I refrained from voting, but it would be nice to have them listed somewhere on the main project page. matt91486 (talk) 02:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm unsure on this one, the only prior AFD precedent I'm aware of was for Belaid Lacarne where it was argued that officiating at the World Cup Finals was a good inclusion. Previous attempts to determine notability Here and also here were never adopted by the project. In the case of Christoforos Zografos, he's been FIFA listed since 2004 and was fourth official for one game in the 2004 Olympics. He's officiated European Cup, UEFA Cup and Intertoto cup qualifiers, and domestically, he referees regularly in Super League Greece. Sources are a bit of a bugger, not being able to read Greek, but I would surmise that being an International referee would allow his inclusion. Anyone else? Nanonic (talk) 03:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: (additional) I don't suppose that his Superleague officiating would whack him past WP:BIO as "Competitors who have played in a fully professional league"? Nanonic (talk) 03:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refs 

message: I'd like extra input on this article as there are constant disputes over Chasetown's feats this season. 
My position is simple enough: Chasetowns win over Port Vale and them reaching Round three is certainly notable and is therefore duly included in the history of the FA Cup section. But it does not constitute a 'giant killing' for the very simple reason that Port Vale are not a giant of English football. Secondly an identical result in 1998-1999 when another level eight club, Bedlington Terriers beat Colchester (a level three club) 4-1 is long forgotten. Thus we should also be wary of such recentism. Thirdly we need stringent criteria on the article to stop people just adding their favourite team's results (before we introduced the criteria Premiership Birminghams win over Newcastle last season was frequently added). Valenciano (talk) 15:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps the criteria could be amended to make it just "when a team beats another from a division three or more divisions above them." Then again, the article should probably be deleted, as any giant-killing is not technically defined, and to create a definition would be OR. пﮟოьεԻ 57 15:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: An inherent problem with the term "giant" in my opinion.  When did Huddersfield or Oxford United make "Giant" status? The Rambling Man (talk) 15:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The term "Giant" is confusing. Havant & Waterlooville's recent win over Swansea in the FA Cup was a shock and is certainly notable, especially as they now face Liverpool at Anfield. I think it should be included, but it doesn't constitute a "Giant" killing. Maybe the section should be called "FA Cup upsets" or something similar. Any thoughts? Oliwestham (talk) 16:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Applying WP:COMMON-like logic, it is certainly regularly referred to in print/broadcast media as "giant-killings" whenever any team beats a higher one, regardless of the absolute levels of the clubs involved - i.e. giant is a relative term rather than absolute. - fchd (talk) 16:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: One man's Giant is another man's dwarf... The Rambling Man's chronicles, circa 2008  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: To be strictly accurate, this article should be entitled FA Cup matches resulting in a win for a club at least three divisions below a club in one of the top two tiers of English football, shouldn't it?  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite. And any article with such arbitrary inclusion criteria should be deleted forthwith as intrinsically OR/POV. In my opinion :) cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, I have to agree with User:Struway2. However, I would also disagree with User:Valenciano in that I certainly haven't forgotten the Bedlington v Colchester result - that was (and remains) their only time in the Rounds Proper. - fchd (talk) 18:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've no doubt that you do remember it but that's more to do with your impressive encyclopedic knowledge of such results than its memorability :) Valenciano (talk) 19:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It has a  now.  I'll inform major contributors.  This must go (imho omg etc etc)... The Rambling Man (talk) 18:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well by the time I'd got my router behaving the prod was removed so I guess it's back to jolly old AFD!  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Listed now, at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of FA Cup giant-killings, remember everyone - NPOV and no OR! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Totally agree, can't see how such a list can ever work. In the past it was even more ad hoc and was regularly hijacked by people adding their favourite teams results. I previously nominated the article for deletion last month for exactly the same reasons. Despite a majority in favour enough editors popped up on "I like it" grounds for there to be a no consensus. Valenciano (talk) 20:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[List of FA Cup giant-killings]] 

message: Maybe this has been discussed before, but is there any official policy about whether caretaker managers should be included on the manager templates or not? I notice that some templates (e.g. Sunderland) do not include caretakers, others (e.g. Sheff Wed) do include caretakers but specify whether the manager in question was a caretaker manager, and others still (e.g. Blackburn) include all managers without specifying whether they are caretakers or not. As Bill Simmons would say: can we have a ruling on this? --Badmotorfinger (talk) 17:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment - Since I created about 80 manager templates semi-automatically from Soccerbase, inevitably all caretakers mentioned there are included.  Several editors have removed or added caretakers since.  A ruling would necessitate something like "caretakers are allowed on templates if they've managed for X games" at a guess... The Rambling Man (talk) 20:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manager templates (caretaker managers) 

message: This template doesn't seem tobe displaying correctly, at least not on my screen - anyone shed any light.....? ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Its the new parser, am reporting to the devs. Woody (talk) 11:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Template:Wales-footy-bio-stub]] 

message: I'd be grateful if someone would confirm that this isn't a hoax before anyone spends time cleaning it up. Ta. --Dweller (talk) 11:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like bullshit to me. Salernitana are not a Spanish team... ArtVandelay13 (talk) 11:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. I am worried about it, but, pushing AGF, if you read the edit summaries, the creator did post from memory of a conversation... that could easily just be his flawed recollection of a long chat. --Dweller (talk) 12:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And AGF is not undue, as the newbie's other contributions are clearly good faith. --Dweller (talk) 12:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that (a) Havant & Waterlooville didn't exist in the 1970s and (b) and that there are no relevant google hits for any of the claims, I would say it's a hoax. пﮟოьεԻ 57 12:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. Warming up my toaster and big stick now. Thanks chaps. --Dweller (talk) 12:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Jonathan Guy]] 

message: Am I right in thinking :Image:mackie.jpg should be deleted? Jimbo[online] 13:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I should say so, yes. – PeeJay 14:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, I've tagged the pic BanRay 15:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you have to do to get rid of a picture without the correct copyright? I'm unsure of the process. I found another without copyright :Image:sandor.jpg Jimbo[online] 16:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You should add the template  and then after the appropriate time an admin will pop by and blow it away.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Jamie Mackie]] Image 

message: I took some photo's in October 2006 of Ossie Ardiles and Beitar training, I don't who all the players are, not sure if any numbers have changed since then. But anyone is welcome to use them for player profiles if they know.  Govvy (talk) 16:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S I've already uploaded these two, Image:Ardiles14-08-2006.jpg and Image:Beitar Jerusalem in training.JPG. Govvy (talk) 16:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Beitar Jerusalem F.C.]] Images 

message: I have found an image of the change of 1892 certificate where Everton Football Club and Athletic Grounds Company Limited became Liverpool Football Club and Athletic Grounds Company Limited. I would like to upload this to wikipedia for use in the Liverpool F.C. and History of Liverpool F.C. article, and I assume there should be no problems with copyright, given that it's an image of a document that's more than 100 years old, but I don't know what tag I should use for the image to prevent it from being deleted; I can't see anything about images of documents. Any ideas? Robotforaday (talk) 02:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image of change of name certificate 

message: Someone told me that the use of smaller flag is reviewing in MOS, but where the discussion? AND why the discussion has not yet closed, they already adding flags, again?! Matthew_hk tc 08:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are discussions at WT:FLAG, but the active discussion seems to be about the meaning of flags in squad lists, not about use in infoboxes. This discussion raised the matter of infoboxes but came to no conclusion and the last posting was three weeks ago. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flagicon in infobox, again 

message: Can I make a point which may appear pedantic, but really is not? A lot of articles have sections called "Colours and crest". Yet the use of crest here is not strictly the proper use of the term crest, as set out in Crest (heraldry). Now, no biggie, you might say, and maybe this is a pedantic point; EXCEPT that Aberdeen F.C. has recently been failed as a GA and one of the numerous points made was that in order for it to be improved was that the section titled "Colours and badge" should be renamed "Colours and crest". Now, generally I would think that it is splitting hairs to ask editors of Aberdeen F.C. to make such a change. BUT when I strongly suspect that we're not using the term "crest" properly, and so we're asking somebody to say something wrong to improve something to GA standard, I feel the push to standardise articles and make them all have the same headings and look just like Arsenal F.C. (which is a very good article, I admit) has gone too far. Robotforaday (talk) 00:20, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, I don't know what is wrong with the term badge. I'd say crest is also correct, but I don't see what's wrong with badge. Secondly, I was quite surprised to read some of the comments at that GA Review anyway. Peanut4 (talk) 00:28, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Good points - the crest is the official symbol of the club, the badge is what the team wear on their shirts. The two are not always the same - e.g. Arsenal used to have an AFC logo on the shirt, and later a simple cannon, before adopting the badge around 1990 or so. The Arsenal F.C. article could do with clarification on this matter, actually - lemme find some sources and I'll update it. Qwghlm (talk) 11:56, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Reminiscent of the pitch/field debate a few days ago... :-) Fedgin | Talk 16:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crest? 

message: *...that WikiProject Football has been in existence for  (original page)?
*...that as well as being our first FA; IFK Göteborg was also our first article to appear on the Main page?
*...that Stocksbridge Park Steels F.C. was the 30th FA?
*...that Gillingham F.C. was the 1st featured topic?
*...that we currently have 71 items of featured content (30 FA's, 39 FL's, 1 FP and 1 FT)?
*...that we only need a Featured portal and a Featured sound to complete the whole set?
*...that on average, 2.258 items are promoted to featured status every month? 
*...that we've had more than 10 articles featured on the main page?
*...that we've had nearly 100 entries in Did you know? on the main page?
*...that we support over 20,000 articles?
*...that we have over 350 members actively working on Association football articles?
*...that Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Milestones exists?
Well now you do! Foxhill (talk) 03:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I certainly learnt something there - I didn't even know Featured Sounds existed!  Now, what could we get for one of those.......? ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking that too. I suppose if we got a recording of a football chant or something... – PeeJay 08:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, although it would probably have to be a very well-known chant such as YNWA.  I'm not sure the wider WP community is ready to give FS status to a hearty chorus of "the referee's a w*nker" :-) ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:34, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps the Rainham End could be persuaded to rouse up a chorus of The Last Waltz that could be raised to FS and added to the topic :@)   Kevin McE (talk) 17:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Haha. Well, quite. – PeeJay 08:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What about the world's oldest football song? --Dweller (talk) 09:42, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did you know... 

message: Hello everyone, just a quick note to say that this article was promoted last night to featured status following an excellent collaboration of WP:FOOTBALL contributors.  Thanks to everyone involved.  The Rambling Man (talk) 09:22, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leeds seasons FL 

message: I came across this article the other day, and it was in a terrible, terrible state. I've attempted to clean it up and give it some structure, but perhaps some other editors could also have a go. I think the Club-specific songs section needs particular attention. Cheers, пﮟოьεԻ 57 22:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good job! On that note, I've tried to cleanup Michael Mifsud and have added a load of references to the Coventry part of the article, but cannot find anything for his career before Coventry. D.M.N. (talk) 17:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Football chant]] 

message: There is an ongoing discussion regarding the use of 15px flagicons in footballers' infoboxes, please feel free to throw in your opinion, cheers. BanRay 17:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll comment over there, but I simply hate the proliferation of them in infoboxes. Peanut4 (talk) 19:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  wp:flag discussion 

message: I just read his article!! Two things there, not sure if it true or not, or if it is vandalism! First being: He was recognised as being useless without Chris Kiwomya. The next: He is generally reckoned to have wasted his football career, and now runs a market stall. I mean!! Is that vandalism or not?? Govvy (talk) 21:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It was vandalism so I reverted it. Woody (talk) 21:36, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've also taken the bit about the Spider-Monkey. It might be true (though I seriously doubt it) and no references and nothing on google. Peanut4 (talk) 21:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, he was useless without Chris K, but it was still vandalism! The Rambling Man (talk) 11:02, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Jason Dozzell]] 

message: I'd appreciate some guidance as to whether this is genuine, a hoax, or a typo version of an existing article. Or something else I didn't think of! --Dweller (talk) 14:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: He does seem to exist, although the details seems to be a bit, ahem, all over the place..... ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems like someone is adding bogus details to FC Istres players (see Nordine Assami). ArtVandelay13 (talk) 14:39, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I've fixed Bochu's article. Now I'm after the vandal. Thanks guys. --Dweller (talk) 14:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: He exists, and played for Fiorentina during their Serie C2 stint a few of years ago. --Angelo (talk) 15:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Matthieu Bochu]] 

message: Is there a definitive consensus or policy about in-match updates, to prevent the unseemly race to post goals during events such as the present ACN tournament.  My opinion is that this project is an encyclopaedia, not a live news service, and that latest scores in a results section are a projection, not a fact, but many editors just ignore any attempt to revert to the pre-match situation, no matter how argued.  Kevin McE (talk) 18:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Total waste of time but I can't see any way of preventing it from happening unless you (semi)-protect all active pages (such as the African Cup of Nations pages)... The Rambling Man (talk) 18:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm not opposed to updating match summaries with live scores, especially as I don't really see how it can be stopped. Even I've been guilty(?) of it in the past. I am, however, opposed to updating league tables and goalscoring charts while matches are still ongoing, not least because it can be quite confusing when it comes to updating the tables after the game. – PeeJay 19:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: While I can't understand the motivation for anyone to update articles rather than watch the football, it seems more hassle than its worth to do anything other than ignore it. They're not really hurting anyone, just being a bit sad. Robotforaday (talk) 19:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have a laptop it's very easy to do :) That said I don't see the point in worrying - matches only last 90/120 minutes and the effort to police them would very quickly be of no use whatsoever. Plus, it detracts from our own enjoyment of the game. Qwghlm (talk) 19:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Updating league tables and goalscoring charts is a big big no-no. What happens if they game gets abandoned? The goals will be chalked off a players record and the result obviously not count. However, it can't be stopped unfortunately. The same as people updating players when they're about to leave to another club, etc, etc. Peanut4 (talk) 19:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Conclusion - it's probably unhelpful but ultimately harmless and (beyond page protection) impossible to prevent.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updates during matches 

message: Please move Mark Wright (English footballer) to Mark Wright (footballer born 1982), since the other Mark Wright (footballer), is also, um, English. Chanheigeorge (talk) 07:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly object to the way this has been done - this should have been done requested on WP:RM. As a result of that unilateral move there is now pre-merge article history which has been deleted which is a breach of GFDL - see here if you're an admin. All requested moves should be done through Wikipedia:Requested Moves and not here. Qwghlm (talk) 09:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops.  Apologies.  Early morning.  The Rambling Man (talk) 09:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. I've requested a move there. Chanheigeorge (talk) 09:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Mark Wright (English footballer)]] 

message: Would a player who is on the books of an established Premiership side, but hasn't yet made a first-team appearance, and has also played for Wales Under-21s be notable? GiantSnowman (talk) 13:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: From my understanding, Under-21 caps make a player notable. Daniel Parslow was recently nominated for deletion and passed because he has Welsh Under-21 caps. Jimbo[online] 15:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Jolly good - in that case how would I got about getting an article un-deleted? GiantSnowman (talk) 15:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No idea, don't think you can. What player were you talking about anyway? Jimbo[online] 16:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Rhys Williams of M'boro who had four Welsh Under-21 caps. GiantSnowman (talk) 16:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

text: You'd need to take it to deletion review........ ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Cheers, will give it a go! GiantSnowman (talk) 16:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Cheers Dweller! GiantSnowman (talk) 17:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If the deletion is overturned, would this mean that South American U-20 players are notable?(since they dont have U-21,making U-20 the highest level of youth football on the continent) King of the NorthEast 18:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on that rationale, then yes. GiantSnowman (talk) 19:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  International notability 

message: I thought that an infobox has a backup role of duplicating information from the article in the interests of reader. And, therefore, presence of information in infobox is not a valid reason for removal of this information from the article itself. Is that so?   Jhony  |  Talk   15:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It depends, really. If there is just a bulleted list of clubs, then I'd say the infobox supercedes that. But obviously it shouldn't replace prose describing a player's career. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 16:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - the infobox should summarise information which is already present in the main article. GiantSnowman (talk) 16:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the replies!   Jhony  |  Talk   18:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I believe Jhony is refering to this edit of mine, specifically the section on Trencin; and I agree that in general it should only be a backup for prose, but in the case like this, where the information is simply a duplication of the infobox, with no additional information about his time at the club, it doesn't add anything to the article. It is simply the stats which are already on the page. If there was some additional prose, for example based on a source which had some information about his time there, then I would be happy to include it again. John Hayestalk 19:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I wouldn't have removed that section - while simply describing the infobox isn't great, it's OK, I think. Also, if there is a section for Zenit, having a Trencin section makes sense, however brief, if only for completeness. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 19:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow. Surely I didn't expect that such a minor issue as a removal of two or three sentences would be discussed at WPF. I was going to ask about infobox anyway, not depending on your edits, Jrphayes.In this particular case, the problem is that I don't understand Slovak language and therefore I can't promise that I'll find a pile of information about Škrtel's Slovak career.   Jhony  |  Talk   20:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Well in that case I will re-instate it. Nonetheless for arguments sake (I know doing something on one article doesn't mean it should be done on all others) would this mean that ideally a similar section should be added for every club for every player where one doesn't exist? Because if not why do it in this case? John Hayestalk 20:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Role of infobox 

message: What are people's opinions on such sections in club articles? GiantSnowman (talk) 20:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Delete on sight, especially if the club has a separate article about their current season. – PeeJay 20:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Delete. Wikipedia is not a news service. In five years time, who will care which player went out on loan in 2008? The only place for them is the individual season articles. Woody (talk) 20:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Squad changes 2007/08 season 

message: The article is just poor in grammar and orthography.Maybe someone has the time to revise it..-Lemmy- (talk) 21:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[PFC CSKA Sofia]] 

message: I have a particular aversion to redlinks, so, in a fit of being bold, I removed the square brackets from the names of those at Gillingham_F.C.#Current_squad who, according to earlier discussions here, should be listed as squad members, because they have been issued numbers (and in the case of Chris Kiely, has been on the bench) but who are not considered sufficiently notable to have an article, because they haven't (yet) made a first team appearance.  So, is this a sound practice?  Kevin McE (talk) 22:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, definitely, as it avoids giving the temptation to create an article which will be AfD'd. пﮟოьεԻ 57 22:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redlinks or blacktext? 

message: Okay, just before this ignites into an us versus them scenario, can I suggest we all chill out a bit, and examine the issues at hand.  
*WP:FOOTY have clearly stated their position - without a professional game under their belt, they don't qualify under the project's interpretation of WP:BIO.  
*Those who believe draftees are inherently notable need to justify it with the relevant policy.  I think this is where the discussion over notability as an amateur becomes the issue.  
Now let's play nicely and resolve this!  The Rambling Man (talk) 15:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was just about to say something very similar. I think this sums the debate up perfectly. To keep WP:N, the MLS draft and its associated notability and coverage in the media, needs to validate some other policy. Peanut4 (talk) 15:49, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, I'm just waiting until notability gets so watered down that I get an article. Let the good times roll. Robotforaday (talk) 15:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Talk about a biased and slanted summary of the debate at hand. --Roehl Sybing (talk) 15:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, so the chillout didn't work too well.  If you dispute this summary, kindly provide one of your own so that instead of sarcastically digging at the project, we can actually progress the discussion.  Cheers.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There's nothing sarcastic about it, as there's no irony involved.  You're leaving out those of us who are not focusing on the notion that they're draftees, but rather have previously played college soccer, a point that clearly fits WP:BIO, just as clearly as whatever it is you're going on.  So let's not get the idea that one side "clearly" has all their ducks in a row while the other side has yet to put on a case.  It's disingenuous and condescending and that is where people need to "chill out." --Roehl Sybing (talk) 16:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure how they pass WP:BIO. At its highest level, football is a professional sport, so you can't claim they pass WP:BIO because they have played at the highest amateur level, (with the exception of playing in the Olympics), when they haven't played at the higher professional level. If the draft process gives them WP:N then fair play. Peanut4 (talk) 16:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: College basketball, College football, College soccer, and College baseball are all amateur sports, even though in all four cases, people somewhere make money playing the same game.  "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject."  To say that a soccer player cannot meet this criterion without a full year of MLS under their belt is silly.  Patrick Nyarko was the runner up for soccer's version of the Heisman Trophy and has been the subject of profiles in the Washington Post and Roanoke Times.  Both of these major newspapers are independent of Nyarko or his school.  He is considered to be the greatest player in the history of Virginia Tech and is unquestionably notable. --B (talk) 16:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I've just realised that the USL Premier Development League is the highest level of amateur football in the USA, so this argument is completely irrelevant for college players. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly believe that people are misinterpreting the guideline on amateur sports. That is there to ensure that people who play at the highest level of their sport can be included when that sport is not played professionally (e.g. Gaelic football; there are no fully professional leagues in that sport, yet county footballers are notable because they play that sport at its highest level). It is not an "add on" so that fans of sports that are professional can say "not only are our professional athletes notable, but even the ones who haven't made it professionally should be counted as notable as well". That's extending things far too far. Saying that a purely amateur sport is notable at its higher level is very, very different to saying that professional sports are so notable that even people who haven't made it professionally are notable. Robotforaday (talk) 16:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: How many of their games are on TV?  College sports in America is far more significant than elsewhere - it's on a par with pro sports.  We get 100K+ to show up to college football games, but I think there's only one pro stadium that seats over 70K.  American businesses shut down for 3 weeks during the college basketball tournament. People who don't otherwise follow sports watch the tournament and participate in "pools" where you fill out a bracket and try to predict the game winners. College soccer obviously isn't as big as the big two, but all of our games are on the radio and a handful are on national TV, including the NCAA final four, in which Virginia Tech played.  But the point is, if a player distinguishes themselves in college soccer and the news media takes note beyond merely reporting the results of their games, that's significant.  College sports may not be as big outside America, but in America, college sports are big. --B (talk) 16:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As an English person I have to agree with this. College sports (including soccer) are a million miles away from amateur divisions in other sports where there is a pro league. As mentioned above it is on the same level as the pro versions, the only difference the participants are not paid and attend universities. I think an acception should be made in this case for an amateur league. I'm not saying all college soccer players should have articles, but if they are notable players (in the US) they shouldn't not have articles just because of the league they are in. John Hayestalk 17:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chill out arbitrary break 

message: I notice Andrew Taylor (footballer born in Hartlepool) has been moved to Andrew Taylor (footballer born 1986) and Andy Taylor (footballer born in Blackburn) to Andy Taylor (footballer born 1986). I know this was discussed a while ago but have these moves been properly ratified? Peanut4 (talk) 02:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a problem with them being disambiguated by year of birth. The names they commonly go by are different enough, even if they are two forms of the same name, so a hatnote should be enough to direct people to the correct page if they happen to stumble on the wrong one. – PeeJay 21:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think dabing by birth place is not a good idea, that's why I move them, given they do have different names. Birth places are not as commonly available as birth date, and who in the right mind would check whether other Andrew Taylors or Andy Taylors are born in the same place. Chanheigeorge (talk) 00:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Andrew Taylor (again) 

message: Hello project.  As some of you are aware, I'm in the process of following in the footsteps of project-legend ChrisTheDude, and trying to get our second featured topic, namely Ipswich Town F.C.  Although I say so myself, it's going rather well and based on Chris' recent success I need only two more articles to make a comprehensive set, one of which is the List of Ipswich Town F.C. statistics and records.  Now Chris just had the Gills version peer reviewed and that was fine over at FT.  
I was wondering if it'd be possible to get this article to GA/FA/FL with some rework?  Right now it's a pretty long article with little or no prose and quite a massive stat-attack.  I've brought up from 1Kb to 28Kb yesterday and still consider it work in progress but I'd like to hear from the project whether this sort of article can ever make featured.  For comparison we have Aston Villa F.C. statistics and records and List of Liverpool F.C. statistics and records and peer review with Gillingham F.C. records having completed a peer review.  I'm more than happy to rework it entirely - now almost all the statistics have been researched it just a simple matter of making it read well and look good!  I'd appreciate your thoughts.  The Rambling Man (talk) 08:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely no reason whatsoever, in my opinion. FL seems most appropriate aim and it's eminently achievable. There's very little discussion at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Liverpool F.C. statistics and records/archive1, but there are a couple of nuggets worth bearing in mind. --Dweller (talk) 11:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've launched a peer review at Wikipedia:Peer review/List of Ipswich Town F.C. statistics and records/archive1 and would really welcome advice from the project on how best to get this to featured status (if possible)...!  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Club statistics and records articles 

message: What should Brazilian players be sorted under - their fullname, or their surname, or their nickname?
And what about players whose name and a nickname form their footballing name e.g. Alexandre Pato or Eduardo Ratinho - should they be listed under their firstname or their nickname? GiantSnowman (talk) 17:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question. I think there are similar players from other countries, but the Brazilians are the key ones. My gut feeling would be to list under their commonname, whether that be nickname or their natural surname. Peanut4 (talk) 17:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The same is true of Portuguese and, to a lesser extent, Spanish players as well. GiantSnowman (talk) 19:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My take on this is whether the player's name may be shortened even further in the media. For example, the sortkey of Cristiano Ronaldo is "Ronaldo, Cristiano", even though Ronaldo isn't his surname. Same for Alexandre Pato, given that he's also rather commonly referred to as just "Pato". However, Rui Costa is never just called "Costa", and Gilberto Silva is never just called "Silva", even though those are their surnames, and should be sorted under "R" and "G" respectively. Chanheigeorge (talk) 01:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. So Eduardo Ratinho should be sorted under "Ratinho, Eduardo".  Jhony   04:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazilian player sorting 

message: I'm reminded by Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#Category:Unattached footballers that I created :Category:Footballers with an unknown status and posted in in late August 2007, with the idea for others to list footballers who it was hard to find info on the internet and for others to help update. It hasn't happened, despite some early enthusiasm, so would it be better to to have a stub/template message on the player articles instead? Might attract more attention and serve more purpose, as the category is buried away. Altenertaively, it may be better to discontinue this if there is not suitable interest. Wanaka | Talk 12:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not create a template to go on the article that ALSO automatically adds the article to :Category:Footballers with an unknown status.  This way you can bring more attention to the problem AND have an easy way of tracking affected articles. Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 13:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've made Template:Footballer-unknown-status but not sure how to use a standard football icon...can somebody make sure this has been made correctly (I based it on Template:England-footy-defender-1980s-stub)? Thanks Wanaka | Talk 17:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this OK?  I have one question for you though - was it always your intention to create a stub template?  I would imagine that there are plenty of non-stub articles that fall in to this category, in fact I think I came across one recently. Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 13:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what I meant or what I did...just copied from an existing template. I simply want to 'highlight' these pages as needing updating, in the same way a stub highlights a needed expansion. Wanaka | Talk 15:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, that's what I thought.  Because you have copied a stub template, the template that you have produced is also a stub template, which isn't ideal.  Not to worry, I'll have a look at it and try to convert it to a normal template without changing the appearance. Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 15:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How's this? I've added the template to Emmanuel Omoyinmi so that you can see how it looks in an article. Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 16:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Magic, that's much better. Wanaka | Talk 16:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Footballers with an unknown status]] 

message: Should the flag for Austria coach Tony Cargnelli be the flag of Nazi Germany? When he was coach, Austria was controlled by Germany. michfan2123 (talk) 15:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Having a Nazi flag next to a football coach could have negative connotations; I'd personally keep the Austrian flag. GiantSnowman (talk) 17:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: When Cargnelli was born, Austria had not been annexed by Nazi Germany, so the Austrian flag could well apply too. Which one do you pick? Here's a question along the same lines - would someone who fled the Nazis (or some other oppressive regime) to avoid persecution, but had yet to be naturalised by another country, would they have that oppressive state's by their name? Of course not, it would not make sense. WP:FLAG states where any ambiguity may lie, it is best not to bother with a flag, and it is clearly ambiguous here - the swastika was not just part of the flag of a nation state but the symbol of a particular political belief, and to display it alongside Cargnelli's name could erroneously lead the reader to think he adhered to those beliefs as well. It's best to avoid - either choose the (non-political) Austrian flag or none at all. Qwghlm (talk) 00:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[F.C. Internazionale Milano#Managerial history]] 

message: Shouldn't the article The Entertainers (NUFC) be merged into the history of Newcastle United F.C. rather than have its own stand alone entry? Peanut4 (talk) 17:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a surprisingly full article, but yes, it should be merged with the Kevin Keegan section. GiantSnowman (talk) 17:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, it's a subjective term and it should only really exist within the context of the NUFC article, as the big icy one says, in the Keegan section.  I wonder if we'll eventually be treated to such fun again once KK works his "magic"?  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've started an AfD. I would find it funnier if King Kev failed miserably at Newcastle. I reckon the Geordie public would have been calling for Big Sam's head if he'd have made the same as Keegan. Or is that WP:POV? Peanut4 (talk) 18:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, I'm no fan of KK but those NUFC vs Liverpool games were best ever... The Rambling Man (talk) 18:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As a neutral, he's absolutely mint because at least, as suggested above (!), you're generally guaranteed a bit of entertainment. Just the entires story of his appointment unfurling was captivating viewing. Anyway, my mrs is a Boro fan, and 
I'm under orders not to like Newcastle! Peanut4 (talk) 18:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: A tag HAS been placed on the article, and the AfD page is for the discussion, where you can discuss what merits you think the article has, and why it should remain. GiantSnowman (talk) 15:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone with a basic understanding of policies would see that statement as nonsense, Afd is not just a tag like {bias} or {cite}. The deletion policy page lists all appropriate steps to take if concerns are present, the nominated ones of merge or POV are explicitly listed. Further, none of the reasons stated bar possibly whether it deserves an article at all (notability) are listed as reasons to list an Afd, at least not as a starting point. Can you not see from the ensuing mess and divergent impossible to follow debate that arbitrarily closes in 5 days that has followed, that Afd was not appropriate as a start point in this case, even ignoring the nominators proven bad faith here. MickMacNee (talk) 15:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Entertainers 

message: Is this a hoax? I can't find any record of him. Yet another AfD... пﮟოьεԻ 57 19:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like it to me...a quick Google search doesn't bring up any results about a Livingstone football player of that name. GiantSnowman (talk) 19:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it is. But check out this bebo page and cross check with the page's author. He certainly hasn't played yet and could be PROD-ded anyway. Peanut4 (talk) 19:08, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I already prodded it, but it was removed... пﮟოьεԻ 57 19:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If he is real, then he is not notable anyway. GiantSnowman (talk) 19:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chris Thomson.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks - I'm getting a bit tired of creating them! пﮟოьεԻ 57 19:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like the Chris Thomson article creator has another one.  Michael Garrett, he would probably be notable if there was actually any evidence that he existed. --Scottmsg (talk) 22:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought all new pages had to be verified. Who has verified this? No references, no external links, nothing on google. Peanut4 (talk) 22:49, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It must have slipped through: . Woody (talk) 22:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've prodded it. Peanut4 (talk) 22:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Our January archive is the biggest one yet. I think it is some sort of Christmas hangover. Woody (talk) 22:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder how did you find this article.  Jhony   04:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It was on the bot results list - very handy for picking up crap like this. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Useful, thanks!  Jhony   19:52, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hoax? 

message: Is this article a hoax?  Google hits = zero, no mention on the Sutton United website or in the external link included.  Created by apparent SPA Matttythewhite, who seems to be spoofing our own Mattythewhite for some reason............ ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks to be a hoax, no Google hits at all is odd, even for a fake player. GiantSnowman (talk) 16:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks fake. And I'm quite flattered to be honest! Mattythewhite (talk) 16:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Howard Foringdale]] 

message: Yay or nay Jimbo[online] 14:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 14:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes, I don't see why not. Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 14:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yay.  The Rambling Man (talk) 14:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes. – PeeJay 14:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes. - Dudesleeper  Talk 14:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I'd think so as well, although not strictly meeting the defined criteria, but it's a point worth stretching in my opinion. - fchd (talk) 15:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm going to be different and original and say 'yes' GiantSnowman (talk) 17:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes, as long as we are talking countries with a League Cup that's worthy of notice. In Germany, the "League Cup" is a joke, compared to the English one. So, yes, with a but. --Madcynic (talk) 18:02, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the DFB Liga-Pokal would definitely count, as it's a first team competition for top-flight clubs only. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 18:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Luckily, as there is no competition scheduled for 2008, the issue is not as pressing ;) --Madcynic (talk) 22:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do appearances in the League Cup make a player notable? 

message: What are people's opinions on having stats for B/C sides (e.g. for players in Spain) or II sides (e.g. in Germany) in the infobox? Examples include Bojan Krkić and Stefan Markolf. GiantSnowman (talk) 21:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Include it if you can find it (and it's comprehensive). ArtVandelay13 (talk) 21:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) When the B team plays in a professional league, as FC Barcelona B and FC Bayern Munich II do, then the stats are pretty much essential. In other cases, I would say Reserve team stats are useless except in the prose. – PeeJay 21:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stats for B/C sides in infoboxes... 

message: Could someone take a look at Ireland national football team (1882-1950), I think it is ready for submission to the good article review (although one image still needs fixed), but if someone with a fresh perspective could have a look at it, it would be appreciated, thanks in advance Fasach Nua (talk) 15:27, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyedit request 

message: What is the consensus on the naming of football league seeason?  I notice that we currently have The Football League 1888–89 whilst the remaining 10 seasons that have articles so far are named in the The Football League 1889-90 convention (note the use of en-dash rather that hyphen in the former).
Also, The Football League 1888–89 has previously been moved from The Football League 1888-89.
What is everone's opinion on this?  We should use the same system for all seasons (i.e. Premier League etc, etc.), but which one? Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 16:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming of football league seasons