Talk:Dionigi di Borgo San Sepolcro

message: The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Jreferee (Talk) 19:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Class_parameter|Biography assessment rating]] comment 

message: Francesco Petrarca has his very own article, discuss him in relation to Dionigi, or it does appear this article needs to be deleted because he can only be discussed as part of someone else.  He was either a unique and worthy singular being or not.  He was, so let him have his own article and discuss Patrarch's life in Petrarch's article.  KP Botany 04:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Francesco Petrarca]] 

message: I removed the bibliography section, because the article doesn't appear to be citing any of these works. I'll put them here, in case they're needed later:
*Letters OF Familiar Matters/Rerum familiarium libri, translatred by A.S. Bernardo, volume. I, Albany, N.Y., 1975, p. 172 - 180.
*The Renaissance Philosophy of One by Ernst Cassirer/P.O. Kristeller/J.H. edge universe Jr., Chicago U.P., 1948 p. 36-46 
*Letters from Petrarch, translation by Morris Bishop, Bloomington, Indiana U.P., 1966, p. 45-51
* Took, John. (March 22, 2003) Medium Aevum. Zygmunt Baranski, Chiosar con altro testo: leggere Dante nel Trecento. Volume 72; Issue 1; Page 160.
* Didier, Peron. (May 23, 2003) Libération Voyages Mont Ventoux Pic épique Etape mythique du Tour de France, le mont Ventoux a autant fasciné les écrivains que les grimpeurs. Randonnée méditativesur les traces de Pétrarque. Issue 6850, Section: Guide.
*Comadira, Narcis. (April 1, 2004) Diario El Pais (Spain). Unica: L'ascenció al mont Ventós. Section: Unica; Page 7.
* Velli, Giuseppe. (December 22, 2005) Italica. Petrarch's Epystole ** Volume 82; Issue 3-4, Page 366.
* Cannarsa, Aurelia. (June 22, 2006) Italica. Versum efficit ipsa relatio contrariorum: il modello agostiniano del dissidio in Petrarca. Volume 83; Issue 2; Page 147.
* Winkler, von Willi. (December 30, 2006) Süddeutsche Zeitung Es war einmal: Petrarca und die Entdeckung des Ich. Section: SZ Wochenende; Page 6.
--Akhilleus (talk) 15:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed material from bibliography

message: I took this out:
Dionigi remains one of the most influential and important figures in a time of heightened literary activity that started in the fourteenth century with writers like Dante, Petrarch and Boccaccio. This is known as trecento humanistic studies and is working in the vernacular instead of Latin.Moschella, M., Dionigi da Borgo Sansepolcro which is in Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani, Volume 40, pages 196–197
I would be surprised to see that Moschella says that Dionigi is one of the "most influential and important figures" in the trecento. The more glaring problem here is that Dionigi was an influential figure in the 14th century; he is not, however, and influential figure in trecento studies. (In the same way that Pericles was influential in classical Greece, but is not an influential figure in classical studies.) As written, the paragraph is peacockery anyway. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed paragraph

message: I'd rather not have an image of Augustine's Confessions in this article; why not find a nice manuscript of one of Petrarch's letters to Dionigi, or of something written by Dionigi himself, if anything still exists? --Akhilleus (talk) 15:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Turns out none exists - as I already looked for such an image. The next best thing I felt that applied to the article was Augustine's Confessions since it was a very valued gift by Petrarch from Dionigi.--Doug talk 15:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that the Confessions isn't mentioned in the lead (and shouldn't be), but the image is appearing opposite the lead. If there's nothing better right now, so be it, but I'd rather see an image that is related to the text in the lead--maybe a picture of Sansepolcro if there's one we can use. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks for showing interest in the article. I moved the image to the "Early life" section, which I will have to agree with you might be a better place for it than the lead. Should you find a more appropriate image, feel free to drop it in and delete this one if you think that improves the article even further.--Doug talk 17:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, thanks. I'll see if I can find anything. Perhaps I will have to arrange a trip to Sansepolcro. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Image

message: This reference: The European Renaissance: Centres and Peripheries By Peter Burke, page 25 didn't support the clause it was attached to, which says "Petrarch carried this personal copy with him for the rest of his life..." So the reference is here instead, perhaps it will be useful in the future. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks again for showing interest in the article - do appreciate it. Excellent edits you have made lately. This will come out as a very nice article now that everyone is participating.--Doug talk 22:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The most welcome thanks would be to write articles that don't need to cleaned up like this. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed references

message: *To say with such confidence that the Economics of Aristotle is misattributed requires a better source than a hastily read encyclopedia of Italian literature.
**How do I know it was hasty? Because DBI twice describes Dionigi's commentary as being to the Sententiae of Peter Lombard.
**On Akhilleus' evidence below, I must conclude that Doug has not even seen the Dizionario, but is relying solely on the abridgement called Medieval Italy. This will not do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A few more flaws

message: Found some additional sources and references that may be helpful for this of Dionigi and Giovanni Colonna organizing the coronation of Petrarch's crowning for poet laureate in 1341 here and here. The first additional reference also talks of Dionigi as "....reputed to possess psychic powers." If these additional references are alright with you, then just drop them in as references. Other than these sources and references I have provided, if you feel these are not adequate then go ahead and remove the parts you feel are in dispute. These parts are not necessarily that important to me anyway, then at least there will not be a neutrality or factual dispute because those parts will no longer be there - or they have been further referenced. In either case, the issues will be settled. That should help expidite things to make a good clean article then.--Doug talk 20:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dionigi di Borgo San Sepolcro organized Petrarch’s crowning as poet laureate for the coronation of April 8th, 1341 

message: Additional reference for this can be found at the Encyclopedia of World Biography on Petrarch on the web here. It is about a third of the way down the article in the section: "Laura and the Canzoniere" in the second paragraph. If that is adequate for you, then just drop that in. Otherwise if you really feel this is not true, then remove the part.--Doug talk 21:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dionigi directed Petrarch towards awareness of the importance of Christian patristic literature 

message: Perhaps a better representation and reference for this can be found on page 288 of the same reference that makes it more clear:
At Paris he met Dionigi de' Ruperti, an Augustine monk, born in Borgo San Sepolcro, near Florence, and esteemed as one of the most learned, eloquent, philosophical and religious men in France. To him Petrarch wrote earnestly for counsel...." 
Then on page 294 (the actual reference) it says:</blockquote>
Another friend, more advanced in years, Dionigi di Borgo San Sepolcro, soon followed.</blockquote>
From these references I then came up with the above wording for the article. Perhaps I should have put in also page 288 also to make it more clear. If this is adequate for you, please correct by adding page 288 to the reference. At the time I put it in I was pointing out that Dionigi was older than Petrarch and this is is why I used the wording "the older scholar" (which is similar on page 294)- however perhaps I should have included page 288 also to point out that Dionigi was known as a scholar. Thanks for noticing.--Doug talk 22:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This source does not support the idea that Petrarch "sought out" Dionigi. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Petrarch sought out the older scholar while travelling abroad. 

message: The reference for this is here that points out Dionigi was a mentor to both Boccaccio and Petrarch. I can only go with what the reference says - do you question this reference then?--Doug talk 22:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dionigi became Boccaccio's unofficial personal instructor and was a mentor to both Petrarch and Boccaccio. 

message: On this source it says:
The young Giovanni Boccaccio studied canon law at the studio in Naples, and Dionigi became his unofficial tutor, introducing him to the works of Augustine, Petrarch, and the classical authors.
I believe the two are saying essentially the same thing. Is this adequate that Dionigi introduced works of classical writers to Boccaccio?--Doug talk 23:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Augustine is not always considered a classical author. The source you're quoting doesn't consider Augustine classical; that's why it says "Augustine, Petrarch, and the classical authors." Note that the sentence in the Wikipedia article is a close copy of the clause in the source you're quoting. Please respond to the section about plagiarism above. --Akhilleus (talk) 23:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  He introduced Boccaccio to the works of classical authors like Augustine of Hippo, as well as others. 

message: Not sure if you can make use of this, but here's some info:
* Took, John. (March 22, 2003) Medium Aevum Zygmunt Baranski, Chiosar con altro testo: leggere Dante nel Trecento. Volume 72; Issue 1; Page 160. (Writing, "What Baranski himself brings to all this--in the course of an essay, it has to be said, remarkably forbearing in the circumstances--is some useful clarification when it comes to the specifically bibliographical aspect of the Maramauro text, massively indebted at this point to Dionigi da Borgo San Sepolcro's commentary on Valerius Maximus but massively inept even so in making use of it.")
* Didier, Peron. (May 23, 2003) Libération Voyages Mont Ventoux Pic épique Etape mythique du Tour de France, le mont Ventoux a autant fasciné les écrivains que les grimpeurs. Randonnée méditativesur les traces de Pétrarque. Issue 6850, Section: Guide (writing, " En 1336, Pétrarque, poète, moraliste, diplomate, exilé depuis l'enfance d'Italie à Vaucluse, rédige un texte splendide (1), une lettre à un ami, le père Dionigi da Borgo San Sepolcro, professeur de théologie, qu'il insère dans un vaste recueil épistolaire en latin, les Familiares.")
*Comadira, Narcis. (April 1, 2004) Diario El Pais (Spain). Unica: L'ascenció al mont Ventós. Section: Unica; Page 7. (writing, "Així comença la narració que fa de l'ascenció al seu amic Dionigi Roberti da Borgo San Sepolcro, frare agustí que el va iniciar a la lectura del bisbe d'Hipona.")
* Velli, Giuseppe. (December 22, 2005) Italica. Petrarch's Epystole * Volume 82; Issue 3-4, Page 366.
* Cannarsa, Aurelia. (June 22, 2006) Italica. Versum efficit ipsa relatio contrariorum: il modello agostiniano del dissidio in Petrarca. Volume 83; Issue 2; Page 147. (writing, "Per comprendere pienamente la portata del rapporto tra Sant' Agostino e Petrarca occorre continuare attraverso la lettura della nota e gia citata lettera indirizzata all'agostiniano Dionigi da Borgo San Sepolcro."
* Winkler, von Willi. (December 30, 2006) Süddeutsche Zeitung Es war einmal: Petrarca und die Entdeckung des Ich. Section: SZ Wochenende; Page 6. (writing" In einem Brief an seinen väterlichen Freund Francesco Dionigi von Borgo San Sepolcro legt er Zeugnis ab von dieser Erweckung, die ihm oben auf dem Berg zuteil wurde.")
-- Jreferee (Talk) 19:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks; the Libération article says that Petrarch wrote his letter on the Ascent of Mont Ventoux to Dionigi, which we have. Press comments on Mont Ventoux are unlikely to say more.  Some of the others may be interesting, and there is a list of comments on the letter, which belong in that article, on p.137 of Rereading the Renaissance by Carol Quillen. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Some info

message: Isn't it Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani (with an f not ph in Biogra.ico?) or is this a different work? Won't make the change myself since google turns up hits for (maybe two different) works under both spellings. Carlossuarez46 17:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Biografico; thanks. The web is probably reflecting the same spelling error: the imposition of English and Latin spelling on Italian. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Spelling of the DBI