Talk:Shooting brake

message: It's true that a shooting break is a luxury car built for hunting purposes, but it is not just an estate car. The therm shooting break is used when the break version is derived from a sports car or coupé, thus an estate car like the Ford Scorpio isn't a shooting break.
Examples of shooting breaks are, as stated in the article, Aston Martin DBS Shooting Brake or the Volvo P1800 ES (derived from the coupé P1800) or the Aston Martin DB5 shooting break, which, of course, derived from the 'normal' DB5.
Is the BMW Z4 coupe a shooting break, or is it more likely just a traditional coupe?  It IS derived from the sportscar Z4 model, but it lacks the boxy form of true shooting breaks.  I would think it's more of a small fastback and so haven't added it to the list. --76.26.198.20 (talk) 16:25, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Because this kind of list is supposed to give examples to help people understand the concept, and not be an exhaustive (complete) list, it's very good to keep only clear examples in the list. Anything dubious (as this is, simply because one has to ask!) should be kept as a point of interest in the prose, but not in the list. – Kieran T (talk) 17:02, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [Untitled]

message: This page seems a little redundant, since "shooting brake" is a (mostly obsolete) synonym for "station wagon". Salmanazar (talk) 22:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Bear in mind that it's useful to describe historical terms and etymology, as well as current terms. The shooting brake term would need to be included in the estate car / station wagon article because it's still used occasionally, but it would make the parent article unwieldy and longer than Wikipedia's guidelines suggest is desirable. – Kieran T (talk) 10:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Redundant?

message: The Renault Clio V6 page clearly notes that the design of the vehicle is a 2-seater hatchback. I would presume any 2-seat hatchback to qualify as a shooting brake.120.141.153.17 (talk) 05:28, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A two-seat hatchback is not a shooting brake. A shooting brake is a sporting car (coupé or such) which has been equipped with a longer roof for some additional load lugging capacity such as guns, golfclubs, or hunting dogs. Please do re-read the article, and please find sources for your additions.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 17:53, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Shooting brakes may also refer to some hatchbacks marketed as coupes.120.140.102.217 (talk) 03:09, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like a reference for that, and if that is true then the article clearly needs rewriting. The Clio V6 could barely even be considered a hatchback in any case, rather it's a silhouette car. Also, the C4 Coupé is never referred to as a shooting brake in the French C4 article.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 07:30, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

text: FWIW I recall Road & Track or Car & Driver referred to the BMW Z3 Coupe (and similar designs) as "bread wagons" (not sure if it was 1 word or two). Wiki does not currently have an entry for "bread wagon" or "breadwagon." I suppose that name meant that type of car was used to deliver fresh baked bread to (residential?) customers (while it was still hot!). Also, if a sports coupe-station wagon hybrid makes a shooting brake, I think the MG MGB GT (and MGC GT) could qualify. Phantom in ca (talk) 05:54, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renault Clio V6 

message: The problem with the term "shooting brake" is that it seems to mean different things in different places where English is spoken as the mother tongue.   I guess a lot of words do.   And it seems to mean different things in different times.   Well, a lot of words do that, too.   But it means that using the term "shooting brake" now for something which was not specifically a shooting brake in its prime is prima facie anachronistic.
Today (2011) there are people who want to see the Reliant Scimitar GTE of the late 1960s as the archetypal shooting brake.   At the time, in England, where the car was produced and where I then lived, we simply called it (rather inelegantly) a sports estate (car).  We also called the BMW 2series Touring a sports estate car.   They were the only two you could buy in England.   They defined a new class, which even then was a difficult trick to pull off.   Then Volvo came along with the 1800ES and so there were three.   At that time, as far as I remember, a shooting brake was simply a posh word for what we in England called an estate car and what the Americans called a station wagon.   If an auto-maker used the term shooting brake you knew he wanted to price his car as a premium product.   But I'm pretty sure that the conflation of what we then called sporting estate cars and what today people want to call shooting brakes only turns up several decades later.
You don't need to trust my memory.   I don't.   But there is abundant evidence on this page that different people mean different things by the term "shooting brake".   Given that Wikipedia does its best to flourish using just one amorphous version of the English language, maybe the only available moral is that use in Wikipedia of the term "shooting brake" should be kept to a minimum, in the interests of maximising the ratio of light to heat.   
Given that this entry itself needs a definition, I have the impression that the bits added by Eddaido, complete with etymological note, do the job.   To the extent that people want sources for the definition, can we stick to contemporary sources?   My 1961 copy of Webster's dictionary says that "Shooting brake" is an English word for "Station wagon".   I agree.   However, if you prefer "contemporary" to mean "contemporary with my lunch" rather than "contemporary with the cars we're trying to define",  my wife's 2008 (she likes to keep up to date) Oxford English dictionary says that "Shooting brake" is a (dated) English word for "Estate car".   I agree with that too.   If the denizens of Top Gear or some NYT journalist reading the Top Gear website want to pin the term down to just a certain type of station wagon / estate car that's fine.   Moving meanings make language fun.   But I think that for something so serious as wikipedia, where a definition has moved so very recently, we should probably prefer the dictionary to Clarkson's chosen ones.
Regards   Charles01 (talk) 14:52, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If we were to only adopt the OED's definitions of things, I fail to see what Wikipedia is for. Clarkson is hardly the only one who uses the term shooting brake in this manner. What it meant in 1960 is indeed relevant, but it also doesn't disqualify what the term means today (and has meant for some time). It is interesting to note that AML's use of "shooting brake" seems to since have become the accepted meaning of the term: successful branding indeed. No sources for that though, so it will stay on the talkpage.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 04:20, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It does seem to me that the references you provide to support your opinion are all weak and are from: one of the "jokiest" acts on tv now; writers who are using English as a second language; or professional writers whose next item may well have been about the newest range of cosmetics. Check the contexts. Best, Eddaido (talk) 04:40, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a strong opinion about this, but I do dislike things being deleted because they're a trifle obscure or dated. Especially when pages on every episode of "Seinfeld" or every Pokemon character are surviving. :( :(  TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura  13:03, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Although not very knowledgeable on this subject, I believe this article should remain (unless persuaded otherwise). It should outline how the usage of the term has changed over time and how it has become an extremely ambiguous term, exploited for marketing. The Mini Clubman has been referred to as a "shooting-brake" and Mercedes-Benz is about to release a CLS wagon that has been touted as a modern-day "shooting-brake". The current article does not mention these modern uses and it probably should—even if the vehicles in question do not fit into the original definition (which should be noted). OSX (talk • contributions) 03:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Anachronism

message: The subject seems to have a dearth of notable sources, and the tendancy has been to insert conjecture and original research in its place.
The sporting and hunting origins of the shooting-brake are well documented in the article.  What is less clear is when a present day hatchback becomes a shooting-brake.  In the meantime, let's keep the article based on solid resources, however, and not sprinkle it with original research on models that "could be" construed as shooting-brakes -- especially by editors and not noted sources.  Please cite verifiable information and not conjecture.
If Audi specifically markets a concept as a shooting-brake, ok.  If Dan Neil and the Wall Street Journal call a vehicle a shooting-brake, ok.  But this is not the place for un-credentialed editors to theorize about what cars could or could not be construed as something that's poorly defined to begin with: the current specifics of what constitutes a shooting-brake.   
I was asked on my talk page a while back if there are any cars I would consider shooting-brakes.  That's precisely the kind of irrelvancy that can distort the article.  It's not for the editors here to decide; that would be original research.  I understand we're all trying to wrestile with a slippery subject.  No worries.  YMMV. 842U (talk) 13:36, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conjecture 

message: The joy in using the words for a hot hatchback was all in their absurdity. If the marketers follow up those benighted users unaware of the absurdity it makes a nonsense of the words.
In case it is of assistance to the above editor and any interested readers the state of the article after my amendments and before the swift wholesale revert may be seen on this page User:Eddaido/Sandbox2 Cheers, Eddaido (talk) 02:46, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bizarre 

message: One of the connotations that may have been missed is just what is meant by "Shooting parties". Here is an up-to-date description of a shooting party's day, of a type of "shooting party" which a century ago may well have used a purpose-built shooting brake on a used Rolls-Royce chassis (because it will be used to traverse rough ground as comfortably as possible). Any old disposable Range-Rover or Humvee might carry out that function now. Anyway this is why the term relates to luxury, it remains a very expensive and highly formalised activity, all round Europe. Shooting party Eddaido (talk) 02:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not following you.  It's appropriate to link the term shooting party to a movie with the same name.842U (talk) 10:24, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You're seeking definition of a British English noun. Well, the linked movie gives a very good illustration of what is involved. In lieu of this i have added to the lead a link to a reference which may make it all clearer. Here's a repeat an early 19th century British, though it should say late 19th.The first 40 seconds of this will help too shooting party. In addition to explain the central concept of 'brake' in shooting brake here is another link a purpose-built brake, London 1905. This is in fact no more nor less than what I was raised to call a sulky.Popular Mechanics' idea of breaking in a horse is a bit general, harness horses are made from well-broken horses that have matured and have the strength and steadiness for the job. If you wish to democratise "shooting parties" that's OK but remember any janitor in a steady job can probably get there each day by (pre-owned?) Rolls-Royce but they are not intended for janitors. Eddaido (talk) 22:26, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Huntin', shootin' etc 

message: Hello. Could you please let me know which specific parts of the edits were "unwarranted removal of bona fide, cited definitions and quotations by largely uncited Original Research"? Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 12:06, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The introduction to the article ABOUT A TERM had carried 10 citations ABOUT THE TERM. The points made in the introduction were supported by clear research.  80% were removed, and the suppositions in the lede were left unsupported.  It's not that the lede has to have citations, but its hard to argue that a lede that is largley unsupported by research is better than one that is.842U (talk) 21:12, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for your reply. None of the references were actually removed, they were just moved to different sections of the article and the intro was intended to be a summary of these sections. Sorry that this made it appear to look unsupported and caused a misunderstanding.  In two separate revisions, I have now restored the changes unrelated to the intro and then made some new changes to the intro. Here is an explanation for the latter revision:  - Not all 3 phases are worldwide, because the interchangeable use with wagon/estate is specific to the UK  - Etymology of brake more appropriate for Horse-drawn wagons section than article intro, so I have moved it there  - "In contemporary usage" has been summarised, because it is a complex situation which is dealt with in detail in the Present-day definition section  - Similarly, the New York Times quotes are also present in that section, where they are covered in context of other descriptions. Highlighting these opinions in the intro would give them undue weight.  - Adding brief summary of the post-1960 history sections of the article.  If you are making changes, I ask that you please consider WP:BABY. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 12:41, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: November 2018

message: My own instinct, which a quick Google search confirms, is that the term is almost always spelled Shooting brake, with no hyphen. So I propose to rename the article. Any objections? Colonies Chris (talk) 11:13, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shooting-brake or Shooting brake ? 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Moved   (t · c) buidhe 03:47, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Shooting-brake →  – The hyphen is not commonly used, as evidenced by Google and various dictionaries as well as talk page discussion. No opposing editors in over two years, with four supporting the move.  Mr.choppers | ✎  03:32, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 16 February 2021 

message: There seems to be a lot of confusion about what makes a shooting brake still. A shooting brake is a station wagon derived from a coupé. If we accept that there can be four-door coupés (and why not, "coupé" simply refers to being cut down, i.e. with a lower, more rakish roofline) then there is no reason to believe that a four-door shooting brake is a misnomer. See the Aston Martin Vacances Shooting Brake, for instance. One reference of very low quality went so far as to state that the Volkswagen Type 3 Variant is a shooting brake, utterly unaware that the two-door station wagon used to be a standard bodystyle.  Mr.choppers | ✎  01:39, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Number of doors