Talk:Romanians in Serbia

message: Actually, the Vlachs of Eastern Serbia are speaking Romanian, more exactly, the Oltenian variant ("graiul oltenesc"), the same as the one spoken accross the Danube in Oltenia (Western Wallachia). bogdan | Talk 12:49, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Since it is listed in official census results, it is officially recognized. PANONIAN 22:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Serbia recognized that Vlachs are Romanians.--Brickoceanmonth 07:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Romanians ≠ Vlachs

message: * In Serbia everybody is free to declare what ever nationality he choose in census (or not to declare anything if he want).
* Vlachs in Timočka Krajina declare themselves in census as ethnic Vlachs and declare their language as Vlach language
* Vlachs in Timočka Krajina do not consider themselves Romanians. They think about themselves to be a distinct nation, different from both, Serbs and Romanians
* Serbia recognize them as such, since that is what they want
There are 2 things which can say who is a nation and who is not:
* 1.national consciousness
* 2.census results
Vlachs in Serbia do not have Romanian, but Vlach national consciousness and they do not declare themselves as Romanians, but as Vlachs. No matter how Vlachs of Serbia and Moldovans are culturally and linguistically similar to Romanians, they simply are not Romanians. They are not Romanians because of same reason why Austrians are not Germans or why Montenegrins are not Serbs or why Americans are not English, etc. If somebody do not declare himself as Romanian in census, he is not Romanian. User:PANONIAN
----
::Your argument that one is free to declare himself either Romanian or Vlach doesn't stand. The fact is that the "Vlachs" of the Timok Valley have been led to see themselves as Vlach, but that doesn't mean that they also do not see themselves as Romanian. You see, there is no such thing as a "Vlach" ethnic group. There are Romanians, Aromanians, Istro-Romanians and Megleno-Romanians. Because the Timok Valley Romanians are not Romanian nationals, they may not see themselves as belonging to the Romanian state. But, that doesn't mean they don't identify with the Romanian nation and speak exactly the same language as Romanians. According to sources like  they are considered Romanian. You've said they don't have Romanian national consciousness. How can you prove that? This source says "Many Vlachs consider themselves ethnically Romanian." In Serbia, however, the state calls them Vlachs, and for this they declare themselves "Vlach" on the census (because Serbs refer to them as Vlach and so they use Vlach when dealing with Serbian authorities. Vlach is an exonym, however). But actually asserting that Vlachs are an individual ethnic group is nonsense. Vlach is a general term for Eastern Romance peoples. I've showed you sources, credible ones, that refer to the Timok Valley "Vlachs" as Romanians. You haven't showed me any sources by them that show they are Vlachs. Serbian sources, like the census, don't count. Are there any actual sources by these "Vlachs" that say "We are Vlach. We are not Romanian"?
::Read this source. It also claims that the Timok Valley Romanians feel unfairly treated because they are recognised only as a "Vlach ethnic group" rather than Romanian national minority. This is the feelings brought forward by their largest representative organisation, the Movement for Romanians-Vlachs. Here's an excerpt that shows that these "Vlachs", or at least their leaders, consider themselves ethnic Romanian and speaking the Romanian language:
::As the meeting with Mr Cosic bore no fruit, on 18 May 1993 the Movement submitted to the Federal Ministry for Human Rights and National Minorities the Request for the Recognition of the National Minority Status to Vlachs-Rumanians in the Danube Valley, the Morava Valley, Homolje and Timok Region. The request specified that the Movement sought the "recognition of the status of the Rumanian national minority" for the Vlachs. The request was substantiated by the claim that Vlachs were in point of fact Rumanians and that the Banat Rumanians enjoyed the national minority status.
::"We have traditional relations with the Banat Rumanians, speak the same language, belong to the same creed and it is a true wonder how they - the Rumanians in Banat - enjoy all the rights and we the Rumanians south of the Danube (so-called Vlachs) who are much more numerous than they and are separated only by the Danube have no national rights at present," the text of the Request says.
::The Federal Government did not respond and the Movement applied to it once again on 29 January 1996. This time the Movement's requests were specified:
::1. Recognition of the national minority status for the protection and promotion of our ethnic, cultural and linguistic identity;
::2. Opportunity to use our mother (Rumanian) language in private and in public, in verbal and written communication;
::3. Opportunity to be educated in our mother (Rumanian) language in elementary schools - to learn both Serbian and Rumanian languages (bilingual instruction) - in all places where members of our population live in larger numbers. We request in particular that the instruction encompasses education in our history and culture;
::4. Opportunity to receive information in our language in written and audio-visual media;
::5. Opportunity to have religious services in Rumanian in places inhabited by members of our people."
  
::You've also blamed me for denying the existence of a Vlach language? Give me one source that states the linguistic existence of a "Vlach language"? I have seen no sources saying that linguistically there is a language called "Vlach" which is similar to Romanian. It is simply a construct. The only language sometimes known as Vlach, in areas like Greece, is Aromanian language. This is because in Greece (and Macedonia), the Aromanians are known as Vlachs. Ronline 06:42, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Facts about [[Vlachs of Serbia]]

message: Panonian, the point here is that it must be mentioned that in the census there is such thing as a Vlach language. I'm not saying we shouldn't mention that. "They are officially recognized as separate languages" --> Yes that should be mentioned. However, in truth they are the same, so it cannot be asserted that the "Timok Valley Vlachs" speak "Vlach". There is no such thing as Vlach! It is one thing to say that "The Vlachs of Serbia speak Vlach" and another one to say "Serbian authorities consider Timok Valley "Vlachs" to speak the Vlach language, even though the language they speak is identical to Romanian" or even "Many Vlachs say that they speak the Vlach language, but this language is identical to Romanian" What I'm saying is - as per the NPOV policy, it's not wrong to mention the word "Vlach". However, it shouldn't be stated as truth. Ronline 11:30, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well said here --Brickoceanmonth 07:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll also add that Vlach is a blanket term for all Romanic people of the Balkans. A "Vlachian" ethnicity is just like a "Slavic" ethnicity, not accurate. Yugoslavia used to put in the "Vlach" ethnicity both Romanians of Serbia and Aromanians of Macedonia, but that makes just as much sense as putting in Romania into a "Slavic ethnicity" both Lippovan Russians of Danube Delta and Serbians of Banat. bogdan | Talk 12:25, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vlach language

message: Ronline, I explained the issue about Serbian census on your talk page, but you just returned these two sentences into article:
"the Serbian census provides an option for both Romanian and Vlach languages as mother tongues"
"The Council of Europe has criticised Serbia for artificially-separating Romanians and Vlachs in the census, including through the proclamation of a distinct Vlach ethnicity and language"
Did I just explained, that Serbian census do not "provide options", but only provide a EMPTY LINE, where you can write what ever nationality you want. I do not want to offend you, but if you return these two sentences again, I will start to believe that you are stupid or something like that or that you lie with purpose. As for Council of Europe, this is also not correct. The truth about this is only that few deputies signed a petition about this and proceeded it to the Council of Europe. The Council of Europe did not yet decide whether it will criticise Serbia or not! Inform yourself about something please. User:PANONIAN
----
:Panonian, you have not given me any sources yet (except Serbian ones), so I can understand that your argument is propaganda. You blame me for imparting Romanian propaganda, but I have given you three neutral, non-Romanian, English-language sources that state that Vlachs of Serbia identify themselves as Romanians. I also have about four more Romanian sources, but I understand that you can say "these are propaganda" (even though they are by credible organisations such as BBC).
:I have given you a Council of Europe source which states the artificial separation between Vlachs and Romanians. That is a credible source, signed by many deputies, some from Georgia, Hungary, Estonia, Lithuania, etc. They clearly state the artificial separation and discrimination faced by "Vlachs". I have also given you a US source by an American author that states "Many Vlachs consider themselves ethnically Romanian." and constantly talks about the Vlachs and Romanians as one group. I have also given you this source which talks about the desire of the Vlachs for recognition as a Romanian national minority rather than just an ethnic group. This is a source written by the Serbian-Romanians (or "Vlachs"). There is also a map here showing the distribution of "Roumains" (French for "Romanians") in the Timok Valley.
:Your argument the census is not backed up by evidence, and even if I did believe you, it still doesn't prove that the Vlachs don't identify themselves as Romanians (i.e. don't have Romanian national consciousness). Because Serbs call them Vlachs, or course they are bound to identify themselves as Vlachs when we're talking about a blank line on a census. (I understood the blank line issue from the first time). But what if they had an option between Vlach and Romanian? Do you think they would still identify as "Vlachs"? Assimilation by Serbian authorities has played a significant role in their identification as Vlachs in Serbian public life. At the same time, the Serbian census has received quite a lot of negative criticism about manipulation, etc. (see  about the widely-varying numbers of Vlachs). You say it is "democratic" but I'm doubting that. So, I propose that we unify the pages under "Romanians of Serbia", and there we can have two sections, of for Vojvodina Romanians and one for Timok "Vlachs", where the situation is explained thoroughly. 
:Just to answer some of your quotes from above: "First of all, we talk here about 21st century democratic Serbia, not about Stalinist Romania during the rule of Chaushesku." - I really doubt the democracy in Serbia relating to ethnic groups when they don't have representatives in parliament, when they're not fully given their rights such as education, etc. I'm talking about central Serbia, not Vojvodina, where the rights are excellent. Ronline 23:01, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: I am talking to wall or something?

message: 3/4 of this article turned into the story of Vlachs instead of focusing to "undisputed" (mostly Banat) Romanians, with Bonaparte and Zikica inserting opposing PoVs. I dislike  tag, but I urge you to move the most of Vlach-related stuff to Vlachs of Serbia and settle the dispute, if it exists, there.
Note that I am not taking either position on Vlachs' identity, but since we already have two articles, let's keep the focus in this article on "pure" Romanians, and settle the issue of Vlachs in the other one. Duja 09:20, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's exactly what I was suggesting, but I don't see you did it; In my opinion, at most one paragraph, noting the existence and dispute should be devoted to Vlachs of Serbia in this article, and the rest moved there. I don't have to compare the articles and do it now, but I'll try to put up my sleeves in the next few days. Duja 20:38, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quasi-merge 

message: User:Danutz has created Official status of Romanian language in Vojvodina article, apparently as a pov-fork from this one; actually, it's not so bad fork, as it provides a lot of information and IMO should be merged here. Please discuss this on Talk:Official status of Romanian language in Vojvodina, where we're already having a pleasant debate. Duja► 14:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: *A documentary in eastern Serbia. The population here explains that when they say in serbian "vlah" or "vlasi", they mean Rumanian. So, at least we know now what tis people mean when they say in serbian "vlah": they mean "rumanian". As you can see, these people are simple peasants, not politicians. They are not politically influenced.
*see here. Bojan Aleksandrovic, a romanian (vlach) priest from Malajinica, near Negotin, explains that the vlachs in Serbia are romanians. So, a vlach explains what the vlachs are.
So, now we can say: ok, they are without any doubt romanians. But the country where they live doesn't recongnize them as this. But it is not so. In 2002, when the census in Jugoslavia took place, they were indeed notet separate from the romanians. That's the reason why they appear in the official datas in two separate columns. But, in November 2002, Serbia agreed to recognize the romanian identity of the vlachs. See here: Adevarul, 6. Nov. 2002.
 
As an example: the situation in Romania. On the 1992-census, 831 persons declared themselves as "szekely"(romanian: secui) and they were counted to the hungarians. 1,843 persons declared "saxons" (transylvanian saxons) (romanian: saşi) and they were counted to the germans. 6,292 persons declared "swabians" (banat swabians, and sathmar swabians) (romanian: şvabi) and they were counted to the germans.--Olahus 07:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but there are very big doubts that Vlachs are Romanians, Just see this: http://members3.boardhost.com/homolje/msg/1176454636.html The title on the forum is "Vlachs are not Romanians" - in another words there are many Vlachs who think that Vlachs are not Romanians and you have no right to ignore their opinions and to present only your own opinion and opinion of few individuals that do not represent entire Vlach community. Also, Serbia certainly did not "agreed to recognize the romanian identity of the vlachs" - it did agreed to "recognize the romanian identity of THOSE VLACHS WHO WANT IT TO BE RECOGNIZED", but certainly not of those Vlachs who do not want that. Regarding Szekely example, I would call it discrimination of Romanian state against Szekely people - it is something that should be changed and certainly not something that should be implemented in other countries. PANONIAN 22:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry PANONIAN, but I had to revert you. It doesn't matter my opinion or yours but the official one. Since Nov. 2002, Vlachs are recognized as Romanians by the Serbian Gov. I don't understand why to try to impose your POV here. --WallakTalk 05:57, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Man, I read about that in Serbian newspapers: only those Vlachs who want to be recognized as Romanians will be recognized as such, but those that want to be recognized as Vlachs would be still recognized as Vlachs. What exactly you do not understand here? PANONIAN 17:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Panonian, the title of the forum is "Vlachs are Romanians" and not "Vlachs are not Romanians", as you wote above. I have proven you with more serious sources that vlachs consider themselves to be romanians. What is your source? A forum ????? How can you proove that the postigs in this forum came from vlachs and not from serbs??? About the szekelys: no szekely is protesting against the romanians state in this case, so please keep your opinion for yourself. --Olahus 09:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first post in forum was titled with "Vlachs are Romanians" but answers to this post are titled with "Vlachs are not Romanians" (Vlasi nisu Rumuni). And I will told you again: SOME Vlachs consider themsekves Romanians and SOME OTHER does not - forum is very good place where you can see opinions of Vlachs who think that they are not Romanians, and by the way, it is not only source, Zoran Lilić (former president of Yugoslavia) who is Vlach by origin said this: "Vlachs are oldest Serbs". In another words, there are opposite opinions among Vlach population about question whether they are Vlachs, Serbs or Romanians and I do not understand your attempts to completelly ignore two of these three opinions and to present only one that you like. PANONIAN 17:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Here you have very good explanation about different opinions among Vlachs: http://arhiva.glas-javnosti.co.yu/arhiva/2002/11/25/srpski/T02112401.shtml Quote: "S druge strane, i među samim pripadnicima ove nacionalne manjine postoje duboke podele. Jedni smatraju da su Vlasi poseban entitet, drugi tvrde da su Vlaho-Rumuni, dok treći, pak, misle da je zemlja matica svih Vlaha Rumunija" (Translation: "On the other hand, there are deep divisions among members of this national minority about this question. Some of them think that Vlachs are distinct ethnic entity, some other think that they are Vlacho-Romanians, while some other think that homeland of all Vlachs is Romania"). Also: "Jedan od protivnika ideje da su Vlah i Rumun sinonimi je Slobodan Đurđević, predsednik Vlaške demokratske unije. On smatra da su Vlasi poseban entitet, a ne Rumuni" (translation: "One of those who is against idea that Vlachs and Romanians are same is Slobodan Đurđević, the president of Vlach Democratic Union. He claim that Vlachs are distinct entity, not Romanians"). Also: "On kaže da maternji jezik Vlaha nije rumunski, jer ga ovdašnje stanovništvo ne razume" (Translation: "He (Đurđević) claim that native language of the Vlachs is not Romanian because Vlach population do not understand Romanian", etc, etc. Do you need more sources? PANONIAN 17:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I need the agreement signed by the Serbian Gov. that Vlachs are considered Romanians. That was signed in Nov. 2002. --WallakTalk 19:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it is not what was signed - it would be violation of basic human rights in Serbia. I just showed to you that there are Vlachs who do not consider themselves Romanians and state of Serbia therefore does not consider them Romanians as well. The recognition of the state apply only to those Vlachs who want to be recognized as Romanians, so please stop talking about things that you do not understand. PANONIAN 19:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that act exists. It was signed between the two Gov. It's not your opinion nor mine. You have to live with this: Vlachs are Romanians and are recognized as such by your Gov.--WallakTalk 19:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That act certainly does not contain what you claim that it contain - if it contain what you say, please prove that and show us link to web page with that act so that we all can see what is written there. Also see this source: http://www.birn.eu.com/en/95/10/3718/?tpl=30&ST1=Text&ST_T1=Article&ST_AS1=1&ST_max=1 Quote: "The discussion soon left the realm of linguistic disagreements and revealed that the two groups stand poles apart. "I will never accept that I am a Romanian. I am a Vlach, end of story," said Sinisa Davidovic, from Neresnica." How you explain this view of one Vlach? PANONIAN 19:52, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Show me your official document from your Gov. not some personal beliefs which may or not be subjective to pressure. Show me the official link and please don't come with other sources which obviously are not reliable. --WallakTalk 19:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not see that you showed any official document or reliable source that would support your claims. However, see this: http://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/research/rir/?action=record.viewrec&gotorec=440967 If document what you speak about was signed in 2002, then why in 2004, "Ethnic Romanians in Serbia are attempting to have the Serbian government recognize that the words "Vlachs" and "Romanians" refer to "the same ethnic background"" as this source claim? PANONIAN 20:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, please explain why this Romanian source say that "In Eastern Serbia Vlachs enjoy the status of an ethnic group": http://www.banatul.com/info/banat-history-romanians-in-serbia.shtml PANONIAN 20:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Very simple. Because, despite of the agreement from the 4. November 2002, Serbia has done NOTHING for those Romanians and they are still threated by the authorities like a separate ethnic group. The politic of serbization didn't end, though we can see little progresses in the last few years. See here:
http://assembly.coe.int//Mainf.asp?link=http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/WorkingDocs/Doc05/edoc10533.htm#TopOfPage --Olahus 07:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: But as you can see there are Vlachs who want to be separate ethnic group: http://www.birn.eu.com/en/95/10/3718/?tpl=30&ST1=Text&ST_T1=Article&ST_AS1=1&ST_max=1 Why would Serbia violate their rights to choose their nationality by free choice? PANONIAN 00:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Serbian government does not have "policy of ethnic separatism" - it just recognize all ethnic communities in Serbia that want to be recognized as such. And no matter if you like it or not, there are people who consider themselves only Vlachs and not Romanians and if you think that article is not objective because it allow to those people TO SPEAK, then you have serious problem with word "objectivity". PANONIAN 00:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

text: There are opposite opinions "what they really are" - they are what ever they want to be and you have no right to deny freedom of choice to them. PANONIAN 00:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

text: You do not understand the mening of this saying "Romanians are Vlachs" - this mean that Vlachs consider that Romanians are subgroup of Vlachs and Vlachs are not subgroup of Romanians (i.e. Romanians are Vlachs, but Vlachs are not Romanians). Also, we cannot have proof are you Vlach or not - for what I know you could be even user:Bonaparte. PANONIAN 00:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, since user Wallak asked for official sites, I will show what official site of Serbian government say: http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/pages/article.php?id=37&q=vlasi Quote: "Ustavom Republike Srbije nacionalnim manjinama su zagarantovana prava po najvišim međunarodnim standardima. Na osnovu poslednjeg popisa iz 2002. godine Srbija ima 7.498.001 stanovnika (bez podataka sa Kosova i Metohije), što je činilo 92,3 odsto stanovništva nekadašnje državne zajednice Srbija i Crna Gora. Srbi čine 82,86 odsto stanovništva, Mađari 3,91 odsto, Bošnjaci 1,81, Romi 1,44, Jugosloveni 1,08, Hrvati 0,94, Crnogorci 0,92, Albanci 0,82, Slovaci 0,79, Vlasi 0,53, Rumuni 0,46, Makedonci 0,34, Bugari i Bunjevci po 0,27, Muslimani 0,26, Rusini 0,21, Slovenci i Ukrajinci po 0,07, Goranci 0,06, Nemci 0,05 i Rusi i Česi po 0,03 odsto." - in another words, the official web site is presenting percents of various ethnic groups that live in Serbia and you can see that Vlachs (Vlasi) and Romanians (Rumuni) are listed as two separate groups, i.e. it is clear that serbian government does not recognize all Vlachs as Romanians. PANONIAN 00:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: But, did you noticed that Serbian government website use NOW census results from 2002 as valid? If such agreement exist then Serbian government website would modify these results, but it did not done such thing. And most important thing: census results were first time published in February 2003. PANONIAN 00:09, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: @PANONIAN: Vlachs in Serbia are Romanians. Here are the proofs

message: I think there is a consensus to merge it. Panel 2008 (talk) 06:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree --Codrin.B (talk) 20:09, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: There is a proposal and attempt to clarify, merge parts of and clean up the articles Romanians of Serbia and Vlachs of Serbia. If interested to help with the consolidation/clarification and/or if you want to make any suggestions, please do on there corresponding talk pages. Thanks. Codrin.B (talk) 19:14, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: 6 months have passed (rev 473199102), ending fork - there are still links to all related sections of Timok Vlachs. 1. Infobox edits: Romanians in Serbia are officially 34,576, and they call their language Romanian, and not Vlach. The image is of Jabukovac Vlachs (from Timok), not Romanians. 2. Merged the unreferenced table of historical population, which will need further cleanup. 3. Removed list of settlements inhabited by Vlachs, as they are not inhabited by declared Romanians. 4. Added "Vlachs of Serbia"-section to summarize the relation between the two. Furthermore, the intro is kind of POVish, and gives too much and early emphasis on the "division" rather than info on Romanians. --Zoupan 05:40, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Vlachs of Serbia are a subgroup of the Romanians of Serbia, it is natural for them too to be mentioned on this page. They can be called "Vlachs", "Pakistanian" or just people from Mars it doesn`t change the fact that they are culturally and linguistically related to Romanians. Greetings. Adrian (talk) 06:31, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The intro of Vlachs of Serbia notes that they are culturally and linguistically related. That can be made clearer in the intro here too, and expanded in the article. Ruby Murray 09:46, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Vlachs of Serbia can be integrated in the whole article, it's just a subgroup of Romanians of Serbia. 2QW4 (talk) 11:14, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consolidation and clarifications for [[Romanians of Serbia]] and [[Vlachs of Serbia]] 

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