Talk:Kebab/Archive 1

message: While I know its nitpicky, and I'm not going to change it, I think the spelling "kebab" is probably the least used in the places I've lived.  Heck, most persian restaurants use kabab or kabob.  I should know, I pay attention to these things.  I'll give you one guess why: Bobak 03:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Google shows 2.7 million for "Kebab" vs. 0.9 million for "Kabob" and 0.39 million for "Kabab". I don't think our spelling is an unusual one in English. Rmhermen 05:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling 

message: It is stated that these are similar. Aren't they identical? Bertilvidet 16:28, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sometimes, sometimes not - is probably the most accurate answer. See discussion on Döner kebab, Shawarma and gyros Rmhermen 18:54, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Döner and Shawarma

message: Introduction of this article mentions names of this food in Iran and Pakistan... could we obtain somewhere those names in arabic script? It'd be really nice. --Dijxtra 11:09, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the Russian and Ukrainian spellings. As the person above me said, we would like it in arabic and any other language we can get. Tholex 01:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Languages 

message: Persians moved very late to middle-east(7 th century BC) and taked many semitic words and semitic cultural items(calendar,alphabet,assyrian bull,griffin,nawruz[from akitu]ahura mazda[from semitic atra hasis]...)
There is a common semitic root KBB which means to grill(arabic kabbaba=to grill)and no iranian or indo-iranian etymology,it's one of the many semitic loanwords in persian and iranian languages.
So please correct the etymology section.
Reply:  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.99.30.61 (talk) 00:17, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  KEBAB CAMES FROM SEMITIC/AKKADIAN WORD KABABU. 

message: It is better to remove that template with Turkish flag as the article is not only related to Turkey!--195.140.128.203 12:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can just add a horizontal template for other relevant cuisines to the bottom of the page. DenizTC 03:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proper Template without Turkish Flag 

message: We have already established that the origin of the kebab is disputed, i.e. it is UNCERTAIN. Thus, to stay in line with Wikipedia's NPOV policy, I don't think it's fair to state in the first sentence that it originates in Persia. I can see Perso-centric bias all over this article. For example: "The Persian word was considered more high-toned in the medieval period." Okay, where is the proof for this statement?
This article is in serious need of some refurbishment...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barbar96 (talk • contribs) 16:36, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased Article 

message: Kebab, is purely Iraqi and it's origin has nothing to do with anywhere else!, Kebab is Akadian word.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.18.152.150 (talk) 14:26, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: the Origin of Kebab

message: Sorry, there is a contradiction between this statement:
"Kebab (or originally kabab, kabob[1]) is a wide variety of meat dishes originating in the Caucasus[2][3][4][5] and later on adopted in the Middle East, Turkey, South Asia and Asia Minor, that are now found worldwide." and the links [2],[3],[4],[5].
These links all say kebab is originating in Persia.
I don't know where it does come from, but i think it's not correct to say it's coming from caucasus with links pointing that it comes from Persia !
That's why i'm changing the text.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.233.218.32 (talk) 14:49, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  links are prooving iranian origin of kebab 

message: The article claims "In English, kebab with no qualification generally refers more specifically to shish kebab ..." and "In English, the word 'kebab' usually refers to shish kebab." Of course, the bar is verifiability not truth and there are three references but I don't believe this.  It may be true for US English but in Australia the word kebab without any qualifiers usually means doner kebab. Jimp 09:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe by the people out on the piss thinking I fancy a Kebab, sure, but not by the people making them. It's the same in the UK and Germany. Anyone saying to a friend "fancy a Kebab" mean Doner/Döner, but the default Kebab is actually the Shish one.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.174.125.51 (talk) 06:27, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Kebab'' = shish kebab? 

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thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on [[Kebab]] 

message: In the quote above, it is written that it is called Shashlik in Armenia (and Georgia, Azerbaijan).  Not so.  Shashlik is the word in Georgia, and I don't know what they use in Azer, but I suspect Russians call it Shashlik as well, from the Georgian.  In Armenia, on the article page, there needs to be more than simply "Khorovadz" for Armenia.  It should explain that Khorovadz is the name for solid chunks of mean (or vegetables like entire tomatoes, eggplants or peppers), while Kebab means ground meat - pork is what you'd normally get unless otherwise specified.  --RaffiKojian 06:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian 

message: In an effort to resolve this controversy, I provide below different opinions on the origins of kebab and its name.  Note that Wikipedia WP:NPOV policy is to include all significant opinions whenever facts are disputed.
1. OED: Arab. kabāb (also in Pers. and Urdu), in same sense. 
From The Food Timeline:
2.  "Kebab. A dish consisting basically of small pieces of meat threaded on to skewers and grilled or roasted. It originated in Turkey and eventually spread to the Balkans and the Middle East. The name is a shortened form of the Tukish sis kebab, sis meaning skewer and kebab meaning roast meat."
---Larousse Gastronomique, completely revised and updated [Clarkson Potter:New York] 2001 (p. 646) 
3.  "Sis Kebabi...It is said that shish bebab was born over the open-field fires of medieval Turkic soldiers, who used their swords to grill meat. Given the obvious simplicity of spit-roasting meat over a fire, I suspect its genesis is earlier. There is iconographical evidence of Byzantine Greeks cooking shish kebabs. But surely the descriptions for skewering strips of meat for broiling in Homer's Odyssey must count for an early shish kebab."
---A Mediterranean Feast, Clifford A. Wright [William Morrow:New York] 1999 (p. 333) 
4.  "Kebab. Now an English culinary term usually occurring as sis (or shish) kebab, meaning small chunks of meat grilled on a skewer. Shashlik is a term which means essentially the same a sis kebab but belongs essentially the same as sis kebab but belongs to the countries of the Caucasus (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia)...The word kebab has an interesting history. In the Middle Ages the Arabic word kabab always meant fried meat. The compendious 14th-century dictionary Lisdan al'Arab defines kabab as tabahajah, which is a dish of fried pieces of meat, usually fininshed with some liquid in the cooking. The exact shape of the pieces of meat is not clear. However, since there was a separate class of dish called saraih, which consisted of long and thin strips of meat, and since most modern dishes called kebab call for more or less cubical chunks, it seems likely that kabab was chunks rather than strips. Kabab/kebab is not a common word in the early medieval Arabic books, because the Persian word tabahajah (diminutive of tabah) provided an alternative which was considered more high-toned. It is because of this original meaning that one still finds dishes such as tas kebab (bowl kebab) which are really stews. In the Middle Ages the Arabic word for grilled meat was not kebab but siwa. It was only in the Turkish period that such words as sishkebab or seekh kebab made their appearance. However all this may be, the custom of roasting meat in small chunks on a skewer seems to be very ancient in the Near East. Part of the reason for this may have to do with the urban nature of the civilization there. ..in the Near East they would go to a butcher's shop and buy smaller cuts. However, a more important reason, and the basic one, was surely that fuel has long been in short supply in the Near East..."
---Oxford Companion to Food, Alan Davidson [Oxford University Press:Oxford] 1999 (p. 429) 
5.  "Kebab. Roasting marinated meat on spit while basting with fat is described both in Sanskrit and Tamil literature...the kabab has a distinct identity as a dainty from the Middle East which is particularly favoured by the Muslims in India...Ibn Battuta records chicken kaba being served by royal houses during the Sultanate period. Even common folk at kabab and paratas for breakfast, and in Mugal India a few centuries later it was still naan and kabab."
---A Historical Dictionary of Indian Food, K. T. Achaya [Oxford University Press:Delhi] 1998 (p. 115) 
nadav 07:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical Sources 

message: This page gets a lot of vandalism by IP anons and new users, who make weird entries. I reverted the last one, but perhaps placing permanent semi-protection would help reduce vandalism? --AdilBaguirov 10:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There isn't that much vandalism, they wont protect it yet. Artaxiad 18:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: considering how many IP anons change the page, admins should semi-protect this page to make lives easier for everyone. --AdilBaguirov 19:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah a few more will do it, there isn't that much activity I'm sure they'll reject it. Artaxiad 04:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  RV vandalism 

message: It is already emphasized repeatedly that shish kebab is from Ottoman times and that shish is turkish. We don't need to emphasize it yet again in the etymology. The etymology and history of shish kebab looks complete. What's needed now is more on recipes, ingrediants, and styles. (Also in the woefully unsourced doner kebab section).  Then we can move the totally unreferenced list of variants to nother page and this article will suddenly be GA material. nadav 20:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  changes to etymology 

message: After saying that doner kebabs are the most popular take away food in a whole heap of countries, the following sentence "Doner Kebab is largely unknown outside of large cities like NYC" seems very out of place. Please discuss or fix. Bazzbee 124.185.160.96 03:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rearrangement of paragraph 

message: The word is basically the same in both Arabic, Turkish and Persian . Are there any sober arguments for omitting the former? Bertilvidet 22:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And it is also the same in Greek: κεμπάπ:). the point is if all names should be included or if only the first, the original one. Hectorian 22:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you ask me I would include all the relevant names Alex Bakharev 22:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no ojection in either case: i would not mind seeing only the original one, nor would i mind seeing all the relevant names included. what i would mind would be a selection of names, based on (for a food article!) God knows which criteria:) Hectorian 22:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just for the record, which one do you happen to think is the "original" one. Etymological references differ whether to claim the original is Turkish, Arabic, Persian or include two or all three. Bertilvidet 08:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know... But i guess there must be a source reliable than the others. this one shall be used and the other names to be moved further down. or, if all are reliable enough, all should be including in the lead. Hectorian 08:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly, as the etymologists not are sure about the orgins of its word, we should reflect that rather than just pointing to one of the languages. Thus the article must mention all three languages, namely Arabic, Persian and Turkish. Seems that we agree?? Bertilvidet 09:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Btw, the Turkish Language Coucil does not claim the word (kebap) to be Turkish, but to be Arabic.  Bertilvidet 09:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If even the Turkish Language Council does not calim the word to be turkish, we should not include it. we should only include the two langauges that seem to raise a dispute on the word's origins. i mean, if there are reliable sources claiming that it is arabic and others stating it is persian, then, i see no reason to include languages in which it definately is a borrowing. by taking a look in the list, i see that the word is used in many languages, and, had the article not been protected, i would have included the greek as well:). Hectorian 11:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: "The word kabab (کباب) is ultimately from Persian[1][2] but originally meant fried meat, not grilled meat.[3] The Arabic word possibly derives from Aramaic kabbābā, which probably has its origins in Akkadian kabābu meaning "to burn, char".[4] In the 14th century dictionary Lisan al'Arab, kebab is defined to be synonymous with tabahajah, a Persian word for a dish of fried meat pieces. The Persian word was considered more high-toned in the medieval period, and as a result, kebab was used infrequently in Arabic books of that time. Only in the Turkish period, with the appearance of the phrase shish kebab, did kebab gain its current meaning, whereas earlier shiwa` شواء had been the Arabic word for grilled meat. However, kebab still retains its original meaning in the names for stew-like dishes such as tas kebab (bowl kebab).[3] Similarly, "kebab halla" is an Egyptian dish of stewed beef and onions".
I have some notes regarding the above:
#We have previously established that the origin is disputed, so why does the opening statement say in such a definite tone that it is ultimately Persian? Shouldn’t the opening statement clearly affirm that the origin is disputed?
#Shiwaa’ شِوَاء does not really mean grilled meat, shiwaa’ (if anyone would care to take a look at the dictionaries) is any food that is cooked directly on or in the fire without water or oil or any other liquid – i.e., it includes grilling, roasting and/or baking. It is used for all types of meat, all types of vegetables as well as bread and pastries. A variation of that word, mashaawi, is currently used to refer to grilled food, kabaab being only one type of mashaawi.
#I don’t know what kabbaba means in Aramaic or Akkadian, but if someone would like to take a look at Taj Al Aroos, another highly regarded classical Arabic dictionary, it says the following: “الكبَاب، هو اللَّحْمُ يُكَبُّ على الجَمْرِ” – “Kabaab, is meat that is “yukabbu” on fire”; the verb kabba, from which the passive present tense yukabbu has been derived (and ultimately the word kabbab, as the dictionary claims) has the meaning of “throwing/falling on one’s face, turning over and putting/throwing down, lumping/mixing together and throwing down”. Another word derived from the same root (K-B-B) is Kubba (better known to non-Arabs by it’s Lebanese pronunciation “Kibbi”) called so because in the act of making it you would put the burghul around the minced meat and throw it from one hand to the other (kabba) until it takes the required shape. The word kabaab (according to Taj Al Aroos and Al Qamoos Al Muheet) literally means “meat that has been thrown on the fire”.
#The claim “The Persian word was considered more high-toned in the medieval period, and as a result, kebab was used infrequently in Arabic books of that time.” is unsubstantiated and I believe irrelevant.
#It should be noted that in Arabic Kabaab actually refers to the minced meat type whether grilled, baked, roasted or even fried (yes, sometimes it's fried). The meat pieces (called in the west shis-kabaab) are sometimes called shuqaf (lit. small pieces) but mostly tikka.
#On an overall note, I think that the whole section should be re-written as it’s not clear and one needs to read it twice or thrice before one would figure out who says what.
I’d like to point out that I’m not claiming anything, and I frankly don’t care if kabaab turned out to be Persian or Turkish or even Chinese but it might be useful to keep the information accurate. --Maha Odeh (talk) 08:59, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  any reason for omitting its Arabic? 

message: Hi Artaxiad,
Firstly, may I learn the reason why you removed the second sentence and all the associated references in the etymology section? Besides, the second sentence that you removed takes its reference from the first source, namely Oxford companion to food, not from the dictionaries.
Secondly, may I learn the reason why you removed the Doner kebab section? There are also a separate section suc as Shish kebab, and lots of secondary sections as well. If the editors improve the article there can be more main sections. But why removing the section instead of improving the article and adding more sections?
Chapultepec 09:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Doner kebab is not notable enough to be there. Secondly shish kebab defiantly is. Doner is not well-known, in some countries it may. The other references were removed for the lack of description provided. Artaxiad 09:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Doner kebab

message: i didnt know there was so much to whine about food. I think this discussion has gotten out of hand. There are more issues regarding pride than accuracy in most of these topics. If everyone wants to be so technical about such irrelevance, I suggest you people communicate in correct grammar. And I also suggest that you research on a topic more simple, yet more original, and authentic, and accurate, and useful, and interesting, and what not. Chopsticks. Chopsticks were made to cook. Chopsticks allowed for simple mechanisms to cook with heat; Asians used 2 sticks at a time rather than only 1, like you people do. They are essentially kebabs but on a more intelligent yet simple level. Asians don't take so much pride in the capabilities of a stick over fire, not the capabilities of 2 sticks over a fire. Because there seems to be such a fuss about technicality, i dare you people to find out where chopsticks were originated and how stupid these discussions can get. Imagine if chopsticks had a discussion this bad. There's a longer history of chopsticks being used. The significance of this tool is far much greater in discovery of the human race. There is more tradition behind chopsticks than any kebab can manage. I thought the kebab's history has many references of sourced written history, but I am disappointed in such noise in these discussions. Once again, chopticks my friend.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.80.181.186 (talk) 15:42, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  cheese anyone? 

message: Shash kabab, shash kebab, shish kabob, shish kebab, shashlik here I can say that shash or shish mean six. Usually in Tajikistan shash/shishkabob or shashlik is cooked with 5 pieces of meat and one piece of fat. Shish means six. 1-yak 2-du, 3-se, 4-chor, 5-panj, 6-shish. --Ibrahimjon 13:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it means skewer. DenizTC 03:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: This article is a complete mess. It's not clear what the subject is, or can be, for one. There should be a thorough overview and the content found here should be distributed among other articles, but I'm not sure if this can be refered to as a simple "split". 
Just off the top of my head, a suggestion: "kebab" should be solely an English wikitionary entry. There can be a disambiguation page called "kebab" which links to "Shish kebab" for the north American usage and "Doner kebab" for the British, &c. There can be links to articles about various categories of dishes in different culinary traditions that use the word "kebab" or words related to it in their names; but before that, links to articles containing lists of dishes from various culinary traditions, that would be identified by various groups of native English speakers with phrases that include the English word "kebab". What do you think? 77.77.32.200 (talk) 14:27, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complete reorganization 

message: Some of these need to be removed or put in gallery tags. They are not matching up with the text and reaching out past section boundaries leaving large blocks of whitespace. Rmhermen (talk) 20:08, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Too many images

message: Regarding the origin of kebab, I believe all the listed references are not reliable sources as the authors are food writers, not historians. Borek 9 (talk) 16:35, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreliable sources 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've been doing some editing to help improve the article, I hope with some success. The main problem I saw was that the subject of the article, what the article is about, was ambiguous and unclear. Different people seemed to be writing about different topics. This is understandable, since the word kebab means different things in different places.
In the interests of Wikipedia's goal to provide perspectives that "represent a worldwide view of the subject", I've tried to disambiguate the three main meanings of the word kebab at it relates to English Wikipedia:
# In American English, it means mainly shish kebab. But the American idea of what shish kebab is, is different from what it means in Turkey or Iran for example. To Americans, it means "any type of meat cooked on a stick, anywhere in the world". For example, Americans might call the skewered meat that was eaten in Peru kebabs, even though it originated before Columbus came to the Americas. Or, fruit or candy on a stick, in China or Japan. In other words, it can mean "anything that looks sort of like turkish shish kebab, even if it has no relationship to Turkey." 
# In recent British English, kebab has come to most often mean the sandwiches that are now sold all over Europe, i.e., döner or shawarma. It still recognizes the former usage as shish kebab though, which is the same as the American usage.
# In the areas where the word kebab originated, it means many different types of grilled meat dishes. For example, İskender and döner kebab, chelow kebab, and, importantly, also dishes like Bulgarian kebapche and other types of köfte kebab that aren't cooked on a skewer. So it's wrong to call kebab a dish, as it's a more general word for many different dishes, something like the English words roast, grilled meat, or barbeque (though those words also have different meanings). It's also incorrect in this sense to define kebab as only meaning things that are cooked on a skewer.
It's important to mention and disambiguate these different uses of the word. But then, we have to decide what is the basic topic of this article:
# is much too broad. Even if there was an article about "any kind of pieces of food cooked or served on a stick, anywhere in the world", it's historically inaccurate to use the word kebab or shish kebab for the title, even if English speakers may have a habit of calling it that. It would need to be called something like "skewered foods". It's conceivable to have a Wikipedia article about "any type of pieces of meat grilled on a skewer, anywhere in history", that is, anything that looks like shish kebab. This is still very broad, since cooking meat on a stick is not even a human invention, but was practiced probably first by homo erectus nearly a million years ago, and certainly by the Neanderthals. Again, using shish kebab or kebab (or souvlaki for that matter) for the title would be incorrect on English Wikipedia. Finally, even if we were to use the American term for the title of an article about any kind of skewered meat, then it should be shish kebab, rather than the shortened kebab, since it is the shish part that refers to the skewer.
# is simply a short form or slang for döner kebab, and there is already an article for that.
# seems to be, by process of elimination, the only reasonable topic for the kebab article. That is, the cuisine and styles of grilled meat dishes, often but not necessarily cooked on a skewer, which arose in the greater Middle East and are called kebab; and which spread through the world, primarily through Muslim culture. In other words, anything that's given the name kebab in the place where it's served (unless it's the overly-general American term such as "fruit kebabs"), or has a direct and verifiable connection to Middle Eastern cuisine, such as tacos el pastor. In terms of historical information, the article should discuss early usage of the word kebab in connection with cooking, as well as culinary influences around the times and places the term came into use, but only if a direct connection supported by reliable historical sources can be shown. The emphasis is on Middle Eastern influenced grilled meat dishes  called by the name kebab, as they are known today. Specifically, prehistoric or ancient examples of meat being cooked on sticks would be outside the scope of the article, since a direct connection generally can't be shown, and more importantly, since the topic of the article is not "meat cooked on a stick", for the reasons given above.
I hope that sounds reasonable. I don't want to impose my own opinions on anyone, and I'm by no means an expert in the subject. It would be great if people could reach a consensus about how best to create a good quality article about this important - and delicious - style of cooking!
IamNotU (talk) 18:29, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  disambiguation and improvement 

message: We cannot change the paragraph namr "In the Levant and Iraq" to "In the Arab world" since this would exclude Israel, where this dish is present. Alex2006 (talk) 07:18, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Among Arabs... Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 19:52, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  actually, that very paragraph contradicts you by stating that . Would using the term "Middle East" (perhaps in addition to "Arab") be inappropriate? LjL (talk) 20:31, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: That's awkward in general, since Jews would be native to Israel, no? I think it's more likely that Israeli Arabs brought it from their native lands. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 13:09, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Err, Jews would be native to Israel...? I must be missing something, because Israel as a country didn't exist until the middle of the 20th century, and most of the Jews who moved there came from other places (like Europe), where they were native. Perhaps the ancestors of these Jews were native to the place called Israel, but that doesn't extend to their offspring over centuries. LjL (talk) 15:43, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

text: Nearly a million Mizrahi Jews emmigrated from Arab countries, where their ancestors had lived for thousands of years, to Israel following WWII. They and their descendants make up the majority of the Jewish population of Israel. Furthermore, the information in this section was written about the cuisine of the Levant and Iraq, you can't simply redefine it to include most of North Africa, Yemen, Kuwait, and so on. Please feel free to improve the information and research in the article, in the mean time I'm reverting the name change. IamNotU (talk) 21:06, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing of paragraph name 

message: Stop vandalizing and starting edit war you've been warned PakePakwan (talk) 15:34, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not how Wikipedia works, the onus of discussion and stopping vandalism is on you, you have been warned on your talk page. Watch your language and tone, you will be blocked in future. Again asking you to use talk page to make further editions, dont push your POV. Barthateslisa (talk) 15:48, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism since 30th October 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://sanjivkhamgaonkar.wordpress.com/2010/12/12/the-%E2%80%98insulted%E2%80%99-nawab-vs-the-%E2%80%98toothless%E2%80%99-nawab/. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
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thread_title:  Copyright problem removed 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Thanks for pointing out that there was a poor-quality self-published source cited, in support of the statement that many kebab dishes are not skewered. I've replaced it with two others, to the Oxford Companion to Food and to Essential Turkish Cusine, with links to their text available via Google Books.
I reverted the addition of the "short description" that was added to the article, taken from the Wikidata project, describing kebab as a "variety of skewered meals originating in the Middle East", because "skewered meal" isn't an accurate description of what kebab is. I'm not familiar with the proper use of the "short description" template, nor editing Wikidata, so I just deleted the template, rather than try to change it. Certainly the "origin" given in Wikidata of "Syria" also needs to be fixed! I would suggest the short description should essentially match what's used in the lede, i.e., "various cooked meat dishes, with their origins in Middle Eastern cuisine".
It's true that in English, the word kebab is often understood to mean a type of skewered food. Indeed, the Oxford Companion to Food's entry begins with: "now an English culinary term usually occurring as şiş (or shish) kebab, meaning small chunks of meat grilled on a skewer." However, the subject of the article isn't the English culinary term, but the global concept of kebab. The Companion goes on to explain that kebab has other meanings in other regions, and that historically the category has always included dishes that are not skewered, including various stews, meatballs, and pan-fried or oven-baked dishes.
Especially in Turkish cuisine but also in other regions, there are many such dishes called kebab. For example: Tas kebap, Buğu kebabı, Testi kebab, Sac kebabı, shami kebab, chapli kebab, Kebapche/Ćevapi, Alinazik kebab, skewerless dishes of Patlıcanlı kebap, etc., kabab tabei, çömlek kebab, Ali Pasha kebab, bostan kebab, Hünkar beğendi kebabı, İslim kebabı, and so on. And while one could argue that they are skewered on a rotisserie, in my opinion "skewered meals" does not accurately describe probably the most well known kebabs, döner kebab and its derivatives. --IamNotU (talk) 06:23, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for explaining, I used to eat tas kebab all the time as a child but I didn't know it was called that. I usually just called it "meat and potatos"  - I generally thought of kebabs as meat that was prepared by the butcher as "kebab meat" (which is minced by hand), mixed with lamb tail fat, and then cooked on flat skewer, usually over an open flame. Or cubes of meat on a shish. This Oxford Symposium reference generally seemed to confirm that  - the main difference it notes between Western and traditional understanding of kebab is the use of tail fat. Thanks for adding additional sources, I will try to work more of these details into the article.  Seraphim System (talk) 11:44, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Short description - kebab should not be described as "skewered meals" 

message: In the article it says that a Kebab is also known as Kabab, Kebap or Kabob. The first three are all detailed as variations on the spelling, which is fair enough, it's coming from different languages. But nowhere in the article, other than on the first line, is there any mention of any country that calls it a Kabob. It should either be referenced or removed. I certainly never heard of a Kabob.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.174.125.51 (talk) 06:24, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: In situations like this of "who could possibly call this that?" Google is your friend. And if you've ever heard the word spoken aloud in English, it usually sounds like "kabob" regardless of the spelling. — LlywelynII 08:09, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to disagree that when spoken aloud in English it usually sounds like "kebob". Kebob is an American-English pronunciation because the "a" in kebab is not pronounced a flat "a" (hat, cat etc) but a long "a" as the "a" in father (more like a British English "o"). This is not the first time that a spelling changes in American English because of a pronunciation difference. So you will often (although not exclusively) see the spelling kebob on American menus. This is not a unique issue with American English spellings and pronunciations. In the same way, the secondary distress call, PAN is sometimes mispronounced in American English as PON (for the same reason: the American preference for a long "A" as opposed to a short "a"). 621PWC (talk) 16:15, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

text: This is English Wikipedia, and all it's doing is giving alternative spellings by which one may commonly come upon the name in English sources. No form of "kebab" is a verb in English. Largoplazo (talk) 19:19, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kabob ? 

message: I'd like to see some solid sources to back up the ridiculous claim that kababs are native to Greece and have been attested to since ancient times. It seems more like a case of someone finding a similar food and claiming it as being the same thing as kabab (as in the classical Persian style of shish kabab). IranianGuy (talk) 14:50, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ancient Greek ὀβελίσκος (obeliskos) was a small spit, which is of course a variant of kebab. I'm changing wording in history section accordingly. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 00:23, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

text: I like the fact that an Iranian says that kebab is referenced in Iliad by Homer and I would like to add as a Greek that Börek filled with figs is also referenced by name and description in Plutus (play) by Aristophanes that does not mean that those two dishes are native to Greece as the Greeks had not only already establish trade routes with middle east but also the philosophy of history which included the importance of "the origin of a way" have recorded that those dishes were imported recipes so it's non native of course that doesn't mean that a dish that has been prepared by are people for literal millennias is not now consider "traditional" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.210.240.53 (talk • contribs) 21:45, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Claims of kabab being native to Greece

message: I see you have reversed my edit here. Stating Afghanistan is in South Asia, while this is true, it can also be part of Central Asia. Esp., in this case, the Afghan kabeb is much different from the spicier kebab from the Indian subcontinent, and is related to the milder Central Asian styles. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 18:27, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, this is precisely what makes « South Asia » better than « Indian subcontinent ». Take a look at the definition of South Asia according to Wikipedia. I see no legit reason to replace South Asia with Indian subcontinent, really.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 18:39, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  , I understand your point, but my point is most valid in terms of both geography and the styles of kebabs. If you look at the following: Indian kabeb menu, Pakistani kebab menu or Bangadeshi kebab menu, they all note their similarities and mention these types of kebabs native to these nations within the Indian subcontient. However, Afghan kebab menu is complately different, as seen on any of the menu here. Similar to Uzbek or Tajik kebabs. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 19:12, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

text: Kebab dishes are common in South Asia. That doesn't mean they are all the same. Neither Wikipedia's maps of the Indian subcontinent nor Central Asia include Afghanistan. I don't see how the change improves the article. --IamNotU (talk) 19:29, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed, the list is not about varieties of kebabs, it's about the regions in the world where the dish is popular. Afghanistan is one of these regions and as such, should clearly appear in the list. Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 21:16, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert  

message: Can you make suggestions for other photos? It should not be a clear, high quality photo and should not be any national kebab for a general article like this one where there are hundreds of such possibilities. Kebabs are basically, with minor variations in spicing,  so calling this "American kebab" shows a ignorance. Kebab on rounded skewers like this is common in many countries and more importantly it is a good quality photo, not seeking to push any national POV. Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 17:24, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The photo's description said it was from Kansas USA, and it's a very typical style of shish kebab in America. I hope this article will show the many varieties of kebab, not only the Western cliché ideas. The new photo you replaced it with is much better, thanks. It's not a national POV to show a photo of a Persian kebab, since it's very important in the history of kebab dishes. But I think your new photo now is better. --IamNotU (talk) 18:44, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am glad we have reached agreement on new picture. Shish style kebab could be made in Israel, Turkey, Bosnia, Austria etc, not only America, but when I think about it, Wikipedia picture should not reinforce popular misconception of cultural stereotypes, so I choose different but still very common style of kebab that exists in every cuisine from Pakistan and India to Turkey (Traditional Eastern European form a bit more like a grilled sausage style, but by now it has entered also the European cuisines).Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 19:19, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article image