Talk:WDTN

message: I believe the following is biased on the end of WDTN and should be edited to present a neutral view... "Time Warner Cable pulled the signals of Dayton's WDTN-TV and other LIN TV Corp.-owned stations from local cable offerings early Friday, October 3rd, 2008, after Time Warner and LIN TV failed to reach agreement on a new contract. Executives for Time Warner Cable and LIN TV Corp,resumed negotiations Friday, Oct. 3,2008 on a new contract, after Time Warner pulled the plug on the signals of WDTN-TV and other LIN TV Corp.-owned stations from local cable offerings."
The proper name for WDTN's chief competitor is WHIO-TV, not WHIO. The former are actually the call letters of the television station. The latter should link to the radio station, which predates the television station.
* Correction on that: WHIO should link to a disambiguation page, which will then allow the readers to decide whether they wanted WHIO-TV or WHIO radio. -SwissCelt 16:11, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time Warner / Lin TV Agreement 

message: Dayton's not that unique, in having out-of-town affiliates nearby. Youngstown has been served by stations in Cleveland and Pittsburgh; the metro's cable systems still carry either Cleveland or Pittsburgh stations (if not both). Toledo is served by Detroit. Erie is served by Cleveland and Buffalo. And poor WLIO in Lima... it's had to compete in at least parts of its footprint against WSPD/WTVG/WNWO in Toledo, WCMH in Columbus, WLWD/WKEF/WDTN in Dayton-Springfield, and WISE in Ft. Wayne... with Cleveland's WKYC, Detroit's WDIV, and Indianapolis's WTHR all within reach of a good antenna. -- SwissCelt 23:09, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dayton and out-of-town affiliates 

message: :Image:Pastwdtnlogos.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 07:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Pastwdtnlogos.PNG

message: I just cut everyone out of the alumni section that does not have their own Wikipedia page. This is believed to be the current consensus at WP:WikiProject Television Stations. The rationales are as follows:
#Most importantly, per WP:NOT, Wikipedia is "not an indiscriminate collection of information." As that section describes, just because something is true, doesn't necessarily mean the info belongs in Wikipedia.
#Secondarily, per WP:V, we cannot include information that is not verifiable and sourced. I'm not certain how it would even be possible to source this information.
#Per WP:BLP, we have to be especially careful about including un-sourced info about living persons.
All of the people with their own pages are notable enough to appear on this list. However, if you look at pages about companies in general, you will not find mention of previous employees, except in those cases where the employee was particularly notable. Even then, the information is not presented just as a list of info, but is incorporated into the text itself (for example, when a company's article talks about the policies a previous CEO had, or when they mention the discovery/invention of a former engineer/researcher). Qwyrxian (talk) 02:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This issue was also discussed at the Village Pump recently, and can be seen in the archives here: . The summary is that only people with their own Wikipedia page, or for whom reliable sources can show that the person worked at the station and is in some way notable (they don't have to meet the WP:N criteria, but we need something to show they are more than just another employee. Please do not add names to this list that do not meet one of these two criteria. If you have questions or disagree, please discuss here on this talk page. However, I will say that it is nearly impossible for an administrative assistant to meet these criteria, as their contributions to the station won't rise to the level necessary for inclusion here.Qwyrxian (talk) 22:03, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cutting of Alumni 

message: Although you link to Time Warner Cable, the text reads "Time Warner". Shouldn't the full name be provided, lest a casual reader not know whether TW is a cable company, a satellite provider, or something else. Although I'm guilty of it myself, why do articles elevate cable lineups over say, satellite or phone company providers.
- Also, could you please provide an edit summary when you make changes. Your changes to WDTN were so extensive, and also involved re-breaking of paragraphs, that it was extremely difficult to review the changes you had made, even using revision comparison. Thanks. Chaswmsday (talk) 11:17, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  To User Strafidlo 

message: A lot of the parts of the article about pre-emptions of Cincinnati stations, other references to receiveable out-of-town stations, claims of "part-time" affiliates which are then described as having a full schedule, and just general gibberish (I add, uncharitably) were all added way back in 2005 by anonymous editor 205.188.116.65, and have persisted until today. It's time for that stuff to go!
--Chaswmsday (talk) 15:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-emption "info" from 2005 

message: This article has been identified as containing an excessive quantity of non-free content. Per the Foundation's requirement to keep non-free media use minimal, and per Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria #3, the non-free images on this article have been removed. Please note:
*The presence of a fair use rationale for this article on an image description page does not make it acceptable for a given use.
*Blanket restoration of the non-free images that have been removed can and most likely will be reverted, with subsequent reporting action possible.
*If some restoration is desired, careful consideration of exactly what non-free media to use must be made, paying special attention to WP:NFCC #1 and #8. In most cases non-free media needs to be tied directly to the prose of the article, most preferably with inline citations tying the discussion to secondary sources regarding the image per Wikipedia:Verifiability.
If this is a list type article, please read the WP:NFLISTS guideline. If you wish to dispute this removal, it may be helpful to read WP:OVERUSE, as it answers a number of typical questions and responses to removals such as this. If after reading these, you still feel there is grounds for restoration of most or all of the media that have been removed, please post to Wikipedia talk:Non-free content. ΔT The only constant 09:47, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of non-free images on this article 

message: Sorry, I'm not sure how to go about this.
I've made an entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Editor_assistance/Requests#Removal_of_fair-use_images_from_WDTN_by_user_.22Delta.22_http:.2F.2Fen.wikipedia.org.2Fwiki.2FUser:.25CE.2594
I'll quote what's there so far --
I have placed a number of non-free fair-use images in this article.
User "Delta" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%CE%94 keeps removing these images for some vague "overuse" policy and warns blocking me for "mis-use of non-free images" and for edit-warring -- but aren't Delta's edits reverts themselves?? I also notice that Delta has been blocked (although later unblocked) for incivility in the past.
Thanks. --Chaswmsday (talk) 10:05, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:NFCC#3 requires as little non-free content as possible be used, and that it pass specific standards for inclusion (see WP:NFCC#8) In this case it does not meet either requirement. ΔT The only constant 10:07, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:NFCC#3 "a" talks about one item conveying equivalent information but I contend that each image conveys distinct information about the logos used by the station, in context. "b" talks about an entire work, which I don't think applies here. WP:NFCC#8 says, "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. Purely decorative images are not appropriate." I believe these images do increase understanding and are not used for decorative purposes. --Chaswmsday (talk) 10:24, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It also states that not having the files must harm the understanding of the subject. Take :File:WDTN Doppler 2X 2008.jpg why must this article include that non-free file? ΔT The only constant 10:30, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That was showing the "logo" for the "Doppler 2X" radar and describing how it is animated on-the-air. Not that different from the "news open" screen caps used rather extensively throughout articles within Wikipedia:WikiProject Television Stations.
Do I need to do anything else and are my Image files safe from deletion during this dispute?
Thanks.
--Chaswmsday (talk) 10:12, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

text: I've never been involved in a Wikipedia dispute before...could you tell me what the proper procedure is? Thanks. --Chaswmsday (talk) 10:45, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Starting a discussion here, as you have done, was a good move. You could have asked for help using , rather than , since nothing you have asked specifically requires any of the tools which are restricted to administrators. If you find that discussion here fails to resolve the problem you can consider looking at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for further suggestions. JamesBWatson (talk) 10:57, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

text: I've read a lot of the arguments and counter-arguments on the whole dreaded "logo" issue within the Wikipedia:WikiProject Television Stations community. I got the impression that there was a dislike of separate image galleries in these articles, but that the latest consensus was that TV station logos are OK if they're more organically placed throughout the article, relating to points made in the text. I see quite a few logos in other articles handled this way. But I don't want to read those discussions again...ugh! :) --Chaswmsday (talk) 11:21, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Galleries are a bad thing, but just spreading the gallery across the article doesn't really solve anything. The issue has to be whether the logos are actually needed, not merely how they are used. J Milburn (talk) 11:26, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No offense (since there's nothing offensive about it :) ), but I went to your user page and found that you're English. I don't know that you guys have the same tradition of local broadcasters as we do. Here, the TV stations are generally strongly branded by their channel number and/or logo. I did find that in the UK, the Channel 4 article showed historic logos, as did British Sky Broadcasting (in a gallery!). The BBC, by contrast, showed only one logo, but had six images of various HQ buildings and the main broadcast "center" (as we choose to spell it...). So I would say, just a different TV culture here, which I believe makes historical logos more relevant to us. Besides, "Delta" didn't have a problem with the concept, just the number, apparently. --Chaswmsday (talk) 11:42, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If the logos are genuinely significant, I have no objection to them being used (and, sadly, I'm all to aware that other articles abuse non-free content...) but we cannot assume that they are, just because this is an American station. J Milburn (talk) 11:44, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

text: Then I'm confused. Wikipedia:WikiProject Television Stations#Use of images in articles states (admittedly, in part): If creating a historical logo gallery, pay specific attention to NFCC policy statements #3a and #8. Remember that the purpose of a historical logo gallery is to illustrate the evolution of a television station's branding over the years, so there should be noticeable difference between logos and clear critical commentary on each logo. Do not add a logo if the only thing that has changed from the previous logo is the finish of the image. I'm not even suggesting a "dreadful" gallery, but this would seem to endorse inclusion of historical logos in US TV station articles. It looks like logos once flourished, but then the "logo wars" drove most of them into exile. A lot of what I see now is the current logo in the infobox, plus either a very old logo, or the immediately prior logo, in the History section. I'm not sure how these two types are any more or less relevant than any other type. How are historical logos of local TV stations any less relevant than historical logos of TV networks, or indeed, those of any company or organization which are included in Wikipedia? I've also seen nonsense such as this in WHIO-TV#logo: "The logo for the station is their version of the "Circle 7" logo—an orange 7 against a blue background, encompassed by a thin orange circle, and juxtaposed by "WHIO-TV" written in blue on a white background, underlined in red." All that verbiage just to avoid using an image!! And still, the probable endorsement within the Project notwithstanding, how is "overuse" defined? It would seem IMHO to be extremely subjective. Comments? Questions? Bueller? Bueller? I tend to go off on rants... ;) --Chaswmsday (talk) 13:56, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

text: *:) Yeah, it is very subjective. Many times over the years editors have attempted to define overuse as a line in the sand at a certain number. But, we can't set such a line. Some articles really do need a lot of non-free media in order to be encyclopedic. Not many articles are in that group though. The great majority of articles do not host non-free media and shouldn't. Of the remainder, most can realistically host 1-2 images. A very, very, very small set of articles ever need more than that. As to Wikipedia:WikiProject Television Stations's suggestions; with respect, it's irrelevant. Projects do not set policy and is it not uncommon to find writing suggestions at such projects that directly conflict with policy and/or guidelines. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:46, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Still confused. Do I now go out and remove all or most of the images from NBC logos? (Or historic logos from McDonald%27s or KFC?) Or do I CREATE an article called "WDTN logos" and make up some acceptable amount of "learned" verbiage (or even nonsense like the WHIO case I cited above), which will pass some subjective muster? --Chaswmsday (talk) 08:11, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't go out and just remove images because of this conversation. Each image/article should be evaluated on a case by case basis to determine if it meets NFCC. If there is disagreement then a discussion should be held where both sides can give reasons for their side. GB fan (talk) 11:32, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I was trying to at least remove the "Test Pattern" logo from WDTN, as I looked at it very closely and figured out the call letter and channel number fonts looked just like those in 1969. And please tell me again how WDTN differs from McDonald%27s. --Chaswmsday (talk) 12:26, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

text: And as I stated elsewhere, images are in jeopardy of being orphaned and deleted - can they easily be resurrected? I have no clue. What's the great jeopardy of leaving them up during the dispute? --Chaswmsday (talk) 12:34, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The way that WDTN differs from McDonald's is that this is WDTN and that is McDonanld's and as I said above, each of the articles need to be looked at independantly to determine if they meet WP:NFCC. If after looking at McDonald's you determine that the non-free content does not meet NFCC then remove it and discuss it on that talk page. You can not use the argument that something belongs here because there is a similar situation in a different article. Also it is not a valid argument to say because the person who originally removed the content is now blocked the content belongs in the article. If you are concerned about the images and that they will be deleted, download them to your computer and you take responsibility for having copyrighted material on your system. Or if they are deleted they are still on the system and an admin can later restore them if it is determined they can be used. GB fan (talk) 12:38, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I didn't know they could be restored. That's why I tried to revert Delta - to start the (is it?) 7-day orphan window over again. And when I delete historic logos from McDonald's I can of course direct all ire to GB fan, right?? :) --Chaswmsday (talk) 13:41, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No you can not redirect all ire to me. If you decide that they don't meet NFCC, you are the one making that decision not me. You are the one that needs to defend your position and explain why you feel the images do not meet NFCC. GB fan (talk) 14:00, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

text: For point #6, Delta is not an admin and can not block you. Delta can report you to an appropriate administrive noticeboard and if an admin feels that your editing is harming or disruptive to the project you could be blocked. That said since you are discussing the images and not just edit warring trying to keep them in that shouldn'r happen. As far as the images themselves, each image needs to be evaluated seperately to determine if it is needed in the article to adequately convey to readers information about WDTN. Looking at the older versions I think you will be hard pressed to prove that all those images are needed to adequately convey information to readers. You could probably convince editors that some of the images are necessary. You should prioritize the images and start working on justifying them then when you have consensus adding them back in. GB fan (talk) 14:10, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As for the McDonald's page, that needs to be discussed on the talk page there and a consensus achieved as to whether all the images belong. Each article is independant of each other and needs to be discussed without saying other stuff exists. GB fan (talk) 14:13, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a really dumb question: Why isn't a policy applied equally to all articles? --Chaswmsday (talk) 14:24, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

text: And the other stuff exists type articles seem to apply to the existence of articles, not to inconsistent application of policies within articles. --Chaswmsday (talk) 14:38, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are misunderstanding the policy. WP:NFCC does not apply to any articles. It applies to non-free content that is used within the english wikipedia. You can not look at an article and say that this article only should have one piece of non-free content. You need to look the individual pieces of non-free content and determine if it meets the criteria in WP:NFCC. If you want to look at why the policy might not be evenly applied across all the non-free content on the site this category is where you can find it all, :Category:All non-free media. As of right now there are 406,117 items in that category. You are right that the way the otherstuff essay is written is directed at articles and deletion discussions but the concept is the same here. GB fan (talk) 14:54, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

text: And I truly don't understand how "consensus" works. Who would I consult with? How do I know when it's completed? Is the process documented somewhere? --Chaswmsday (talk) 14:24, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

text: More importantly, I'd like to get down to the heart of the matter. What is the basis for all the animus against logos? Is it fear of copyright violations and lawsuits? Is it the belief that editors will, as in my example, go all out of control putting Brangelinas, jpg's of every toaster ever build, and other pointless images all over the place? Is is strictly stylistic, in the belief that images make the pages too cluttered? I understand the inclusion side, but people on the exclusion side just seem, IMHO, so exercised over this whole topic. --Chaswmsday (talk) 14:24, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I hate to break it to you but Every single one of the files on McDonald's article are free So you cannot claim other stuff exists. Take a another look at WP:NFCC#8 .....and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding The files in this article are not required to understand the topic, rather they are decorative. ΔT The only constant 14:44, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: 1) Please define "decorative". 2) You've just changed the details of :File:Mcdonalds-90s-logo.svg "File:Mcdonalds-90s-logo.svg" from non-free, fair use to public domain. Since I had no actual intention of modifying McDonald%27s, but was just citing it as a reductio ad absurdum argument, I cannot assume good faith on your part. I don't believe there is any logical basis for treating the use of this image any differently from the historic logos I'm trying to use in WDTN. Thus, they should given the same treatment as the historic McDonald's logo, or in the alternative, I should be permitted to change all of my images to public domain, just as you did. IMHO. --Chaswmsday (talk) 14:55, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually All I did with :File:Mcdonalds-90s-logo.svg was fix a template, it was tagged as free but was using a non-free rationale template. The rationale template was not needed so I removed it. Secondly They are not "your images" some else owns the copyright to those files. Again I did not change any licensing information with regards to that file. ΔT The only constant 15:00, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: So again, please define "decorative". You're probably right about the change you made, but I'll mention it on your ongoing noticeboard entry anyway, so they can tell me for sure. --Chaswmsday (talk) 15:05, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not required to understand the topic. ΔT The only constant 15:06, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think what Delta is saying here is that the definition of decorative is that the image is not required to understand the topic. GB fan (talk) 15:21, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for trying to help, but I'd much rather that Delta speak for him or herself. --Chaswmsday (talk) 15:27, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

text: Oh, I get it. Sorry, Delta, my bad :( - but you got me so agitated that I assumed the worst and intrepreted your reply as "I know, but I'm not telling". And in answer to your actual reply, "understanding the topic" is an extremely broad definition. How could that ever be anything but subjective (or determined by consensus)? --Chaswmsday (talk) 15:33, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: When using non-free content, a good way to see if the use of a particular file is needed is to ask, why must this article have this specific file? take a look at Virgin Killer the file in the infobox is critical to understanding the subject, there have been countless debates and arguments over that file to that degree we have an article just about that debate Internet Watch Foundation and Wikipedia. understanding the topic typically refers to the article as a whole take a look at Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima also. ΔT The only constant 15:40, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: And I understand those uses: an alternative album cover, like the Beatles' "butcher shop dolls" cover I'm too tired to look up, for Virgin Killer, and Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima depicts the two flag-raisings; but both of these articles concern more-or-less discrete, "one instance" subjects. A single album, which had two covers, and what is in the public mind a single event, the Iwo Jima flag-raising (which happened to actually have two such occurrences). A TV station, radio station, corporation, what have you -- is instead an ongoing concern. Instead of a single occurerence, these articles concern topics with a past and present (and presumably future). The US flag, as another example, has had a history of different "versions". Maybe in that case, each would merit its own separate article. But perhaps they would all be within one article. Yes, I understand that in the case of flags, the "logo" essentially equals the topic. But I've looked up fast-food restaurants and both iterations of AT&T, which show historic logos within the articles. Lost my train of thought -- but in TV articles for instance, if WAAA-TV has had 7 different owners, is it truly critical for the reader to know the middle 5? Possibly not, but I wouldn't want to remove all references to them. So, I don't know. I'm getting really exhausted, so I'll just stop for a while. --Chaswmsday (talk) 16:10, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

text: Consensus is discussed in this policy document, Wikipedia:Consensus GB fan (talk) 14:59, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

text: And now that User:SarekofVulcan has changed the McDonald's logo back to non-free, doesn't my argument number 3 come back to life? --Chaswmsday (talk) 16:10, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No,#3 does not apply because as I tried to explain above, NFCC does not apply to articles it applies to non-free content. It applies to the pictures or logos themselves. The policy should be evenly applied across all the 406,152 pieces of non-free content but there isn't any one editor who has looked at all of those pieces. As you come across non-free content you should try to apply it evenly to each individual piece. Aplying it evenly might mean that the image must come out of McDonald's or it might mean that it belongs because it individually complies with all the required elements of WP:NFCC. The same might happen here, you might be able to show that each of those images meet all the criteria. I believe you are going to have a hard time showing that with criteria #3 in NFCC with the number of non-free images that were in the article. I really suggest you forget about trying to compare this article to any other article and concentrate on showing how the images meet the NFCC criteria. GB fan (talk) 17:05, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I understood the distinction. Maybe my #3 didn't explain that as clearly as it could have. I'm not sure in what way any of the WDTN images fail WP:NFCC. By what means can I have the editor community vote on the fair use of the individual images? Do I do that right here in Talk, do I add images back to the article one at time, or is there some other procedure? Or again, if the issue is strictly the number of images, my reading of NFCC 3a would still suppport them, as none of them are equivalent to each other. WHILE I'M WAITING for consensus... you're saying I should feel free to -- go out to articles and "be bold"; remove images not meeting your and Delta's interpretation of NFCC; cite NFCC, this Talk, your Username and Delta's; not use the word "decorative"; and not mention anything about violators being subject to blocking? :) --Chaswmsday (talk) 08:41, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I am saying that you should feel free to be bold and go to other articles that have non-free images in them and evaluate them to determine if they meet the criteria in NFCC. If you determine they do not meet the criteria you can be bold and remove them. If you decide to do this, it is your decision not mine and not Delta's so you should not be citing us as a reason you are removing the images. As for this article I still haven't seen you try to explain each image on how it meets all 10 criteria so it is hard to judge consensus. Right now there are 3 editor's that are saying the number of pictures that you want to add to the article is to much and you are the only one saying that they all need to be in the article. So if you want to change people's minds you need to stop all the side stuff about other articles and concentrate on explaining why all those pictures need to be in this article. I am done trying to explain this and I am done with this conversation until the focus changes because it is going nowhere. GB fan (talk) 11:15, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess the count right now is 4 against the inclusion and 1 for the inclusion of all the pictures if you include this conversation you had on the subject also. GB fan (talk) 11:32, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, then. First, I haven't immediately responded because I've been away from Wiki for a bit. Second, I don't necessarily believe that images in other articles should be removed; I just believe, as you do, that policies should be applied consistently. ("As you come across non-free content you should try to apply it evenly to each individual piece."). Third, I've asked for specific objections, since without knowing those, I wouldn't know what/which changes, additions or removals are desired by those objecting. Since I feel each of the images is OK under NFCC:3, and the other responses I've received dealt with the number of images, I must assume that is the only major objection. Fourth, I'm still uncertain what I must do under the consensus process. Where and how do I make my arguments? Who will see them? How will I know that the audience won't be just me and members of the (you'll excuse the expression if it's considered pejorative, since I truly don't know) "deletionist" camp? There were certainly heated discusssions concerning the "historical logos in US TV station articles" issue, long before I ever started editing. Since the WikiProject ended up endorsing logo inclusion, and the resulting comments were of the nature, "glad that's finally settled", I have to wonder where editors of the "inclusionist" camp have gone. Tired of dealing with the issue again? Converted to deletionists? Unaware that the issue's being raised again in this small forum, in this less-notable article? To get disinterested editors to take a look, would I need to create a(n) WP:RfC? Fifth, in the absence of clear direction, I'll just be *bold*, restore *one* of the images, comment on it here, and see what happens. --Chaswmsday (talk) 09:25, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: 1st, I am not looking for an immediate answer, sometimes it takes days for people to answer. 2nd, I am glad we can agree on that. 3rd, I have told you my specific objection, that there are to many non-free images on the article and that you might be able to justify some of them but not all of them. 4th, You should make your arguments here. You can ask for input from relevant wikiprojects with a neutral statement. (which you have done and the one person who answered was in agreement that all the images did not belong.) I am not inclusionist or deletionist, I argue both sides depending on the conversation. Where the editors went that were arguing the two sides I don't know, but as was mentioned somewhere above, a wikiproject can not override the legal policy, WP:NFCC. You can create an RFC if that is the way you want to go. GB fan (talk) 12:06, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images in this article being removed by user "Delta" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%CE%94 

message: Copied from User talk:GB fan#WDTN --Chaswmsday (talk) 12:08, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: And I respectfully disagree with your standpoint. WP:V says I can remove any material in an article if there isn't a source that directly supports it and that if someone readds it, the burden is on them to show it belongs. I am not removing any material just asking for it to be sourced. If you remove it again I won't reinstate it again, but I won't remove it. Julie Chen's article says she worked there but there is no reference tied to the statement. Jodine Costanzo's article also says she worked there but there is no citation. Phil Donahue's article says he worked at WLWD (now WDTN), but still no reference tied to the statement. Johnny Gilbert's article is the same as Phil Donahue's. Kris Long's article has no reference tied to the statement he worked there and the one reference on the article does not mention WDTN. Dan Patrick's article doesn't even mention WDTN. So I do not believe asking for citations is to much to ask. GB fan (talk) 00:33, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case (and I thank you for making the detailed check), it seems that WP:NLIST requires that we remove all of the names from the list. Do you agree? Qwyrxian (talk) 00:50, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Removal or give it a little but of time to see if sources are found. I am willing to wait a little, but if you feel that they should be removed right now I won't object. But then we should also look at removing the information from the respective articles also. GB fan (talk) 00:54, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Give me a chance to find sources before removing. Just returned to Wiki after a couple week break and discovered this. (Also should have placed on Talk:WDTN, not here.) I've found sources for Len Berman, haven't added yet. Not sure about Johnny Gilbert. Dan Patrick definitely worked in Dayton radio, can't remember that far back if he did TV work, will investigate. The other staff mentioned did work at WDTN, will try to source. Julie Chen should additionally have a slightly longer description, as she's more well known today for Big Brother and The Talk. --Chaswmsday (talk) 12:03, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have any plans of removing this information any time soon. I believe sources are available and thought someone would find them. If the sources had been in the linked articles I would have just pulled them across and been finished with it. Thanks for copying this here, I was going to do it when I saw your message on my talk page. GB fan (talk) 12:24, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources for Notable former staff 

message: There's an edit war under way over schedules being added to this article at WDTN#News_team. Per WP:NOTTVGUIDE, the use of such schedules is not supported. Noting that someone is an anchor is one thing; maintaining on this article which time slot for which they are the anchor is inappropriate. It has zero meaning in any context outside of the time zone within which the station resides. Further, none of it is backed up by reliable secondary sources. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:31, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree it does not belong in the article. It does not provide any encyclopedic content, it is just a TV schedule and not all that important to gain an understanding of the TV station. GB fan 19:43, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't it be easier just to put "weeknights" or "weekends" instead of adding times the reporter is on? What does it matter what time they are on anyway? Can't you find that on the station's website? Wikipedia is not a repository of all information, nor is it TV Guide as stated above. My 2 cents. --ḾỊḼʘɴίcả • Talk • I DX for fun! 00:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

text: To answer why it started on this page, maybe editors haven't seen it on other pages. I don't have those other pages on my watchlist. GB fan 00:31, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit war over schedules 

message: The following content was removed from the lead section on 15 February 2012, for WP:OR and/or WP:V.
::WDTN's logo is very similar to ones used by KMID, WPRI-TV, and WNAC-TV.
The statement was modified on 25 Febrary 2012 and moved to the "Station slogans" section.
::WDTN's logo, with the number "2" placed over a bottom-left to top-right oriented red oval, is much like those used by its sister stations WPRI-TV, which has the number "12" over a similar oval, and WNAC-TV, which has the words "FOX Providence" over a similar oval. Its logo is also similar to that used by unrelated station KMID. There the oval contains a different shade of red, but the font of the number "2" is virtually identical.
This paragraph was also removed.
WDTN had used an identifiable Hearst/Argyle style logo even after the station was sold to Sunrise Television. Upon Sunrise's 2002 merger with LIN TV, the logo was changed to one very similar to today's, but lacking the NBC peacock component, as it was then an ABC affiliate.
LIN stations WPRI-TV and WNAC-TV, both in Providence, RI, use similar logos. I've subsequently found that former LIN station WAND in Decatur/Springfield/Champaign/Urbana, IL, does as well.
My operating theory is, as former logos are retired, LIN either does or did employ common station branding. Can this theory be proved or disproved? If it was LIN policy, was it only applied to certain stations?
KMID, in Midland/Odessa, TX, has no apparent connection to the LIN stations. Is its similar logo just a coincidence or is it an example of reusing a public domain logo?
If anyone has any insight on this and/or sources proving or disproving, please let me know here. Thanks. --Chaswmsday (talk) 14:01, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry to burst in on this subject, but it keeps popping up in my watchlist. Why exactly is it important that the logos are similar again? I am a bit out of the loop on this one but I don't see a reason to argue over similar logos, or see how that could be encyclopedic. My two cents... --ḾỊḼʘɴίcả • Talk • I DX for fun! 19:30, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it might indicate a common branding effort by LIN. Jeesh, it's just in the Talk pages now... --Chaswmsday (talk) 21:11, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[LIN TV Corporation|LIN]] standard logos? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on WDTN. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add  after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.wdtn.com/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 03:26, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: If so, that's news to me.  
I know that WDTN, years ago, received a hand-me-down outfit from its sister station in Indianapolis (that was when WHIO-TV ran to update and upgrade theirs), but I'm thinking it didn't last long or was dropped for some other reason.  Now, WDTN, as indicated by the radar sweep indicators, is clearly using the NWS NEXRAD data.
HOWEVER, WDTN appears to indicate some small radar in the Troy area that I have never been able to nail down; is there, in fact, a unit there that's theirs?  Is this what the article is referring to?  What is it, and where did it come from?  What's its specs, range, accuracy, reliability, and reputation?  I've never seen the station indicate that that's what is being referred to as "Live Doppler 2 HD."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6010:2240:7DAD:A1D0:A63D:39D4:B651 (talk) 21:19, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  WDTN Operates Its Own Radar?