Template talk:Lost (TV series)/Archive 03

message: With the third season starting tomorrow, the template is inevitably going to be changed.  The way I see it, there are three ways to arrange the Secondary Characters section.
1. Give priority to those who have appeared in the most episodes: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:LostNav&oldid=79357906
2. Give priority to those who have appeared in the most episodes and are not extras: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:LostNav&direction=next&oldid=79357944
3. Or just include characters with their own flashbacks: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:LostNav&direction=next&oldid=79358714
Comments?  So what is it going to be? --theDemonHog 00:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that all three examples exclude Henry Gale. I think the policy should be (and already is) to include only those characters who have their own articles. Also, "the Others" are a group, not a character. - SigmaEpsilon → ΣΕ 03:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First off, Thedemonhog does include Henry Gale, but is jumping the gun by calling him "Ben."  Secondly, the Others are characters.  It is not a group like the DHARMA Initiative.  The Others aren't really a formal organization, it's a grouping, yes, but made of secondary characters that were originally listed in Characters of Lost before moved to a seperate article.  --  Wikipedical 04:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's also this way of merging secondary with main: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:LostNav&oldid=79462509  --154.20.217.225 15:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

text: You could maybe try something like this. -- DocNox 19:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

text: *Hmm.. That is an interesting idea.  --  Wikipedical 22:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I like arranging characters that way.  To be clear, The Others should be under "Organizations/Groups" because they're a group of people, just not one character. Jtrost (T | C | #) 22:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

text: *I still disagree with this.  Unlike DHARMA Initiative, Hanso Foundation, and Oceanic Airlines, the Others is an article about a group of seconary characters.  If the template stays with "Organizations," Demonhog's change, then it is clear the Others belong as characters.  As for the template change, I personally like the Main Characters and Other Characters.  --  Wikipedical 23:24, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My favourite is this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:LostNav&oldid=79543203  It includes secondary characters who have appeared in the most episodes.  I figure that we have the space on the template so we might as well use it, and I don't think that "Other Characters" is very clear.  --theDemonHog 23:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I personally think that we should continue regular characters as "Main" and recurring guests as "Secondary." It's simple, and it's organized. Right now, secondary characters should include Rose, Bernard, The Others, Rousseau (at some point...), and maybe Mr. Friendly aka Tom, if he becomes more significant. I realize he's an other, but if we have important characters with enough information, we should have pages for them. Rousseau, for example, we know a bit about, and it's been stated she will get a flashback episode at some point, so we might as well make a page for her.
Also, Nikki and Paulo appear to be regulars now, so we should find room for them... Jwebby91 02:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: This template displays articles.  Nikki and Paulo are recurring characters, not regulars.  Unlike Rose and Bernard, they have not had flashbacks yet, therefore, do not have articles.  It is unnecessary to display them yet.  --  Wikipedical 02:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, actually Rodrigo Santoro and Kiele Sanchez were listed with the regular cast in this episode... kind of surprised me. But as we know absolutely nothing about them yet it is a little pointless to go ahead and display them. -- DocNox 03:09, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm referencing the press releases, but hmm, I think you're right.  --  Wikipedical 03:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe, what is happening with Nikki and Paulo is what happened with Claire in season 1.  She was listed as recurring in the press releases (until episode 16 - Outlaws), but was credited as a regular on-screen.  They seemed to know from the start that she would later become a regular, but waited to officially sign the contract.  P.S. Either way, Nikki and Paulo need to have articles created once they appear (October 18th) - although Claire was never credited on-screen when she did not appear like Nikki and Paulo are, hmm.  --theDemonHog 03:23, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Nikki and Paulo are both regular characters. The actors have moved to Hawaii; i think it was a last minute change. They have full season contracts, which explains why they're listed in the credits even if they don't appear in the episode.
We definitely need to make room for them, even if they don't receive pages immediately.
Jwebby91 18:15, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

text: True, they could be seen as regulars, but I still would not count them as "Main Characters" as yet. Either way, that Main Character box is looking pretty stuffed, and the Minor Characters one very bare. I'd recommend putting them in both in there. Tphi 01:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Season 3 Template 

message: I'm removing them from the main characters list because they are not in fact main characters. RENTASTRAWBERRY FOR LET? röck 05:09, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read above discussion.  --theDemonHog 05:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Paulo and Nikki

message: I know it was discussed above, but i don't like the new template. obviously that's just a matter of opinion, but i feel weird having rose and bernard among the former main characters.. like, ana lucia was a main character, not an "other" character. it just seems weird. would it be unfeasible to have a Main Characters section in addition to a Former Main Characters and a Secondary Characters section? or to make the box a little more reduced in size (it was getting a bit elongated), make a third row of main characters?Jwebby91 19:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This new template is very spoilery.  Might I suggest this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:LostNav&oldid=82895521 --theDemonHog 23:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't like it only because there's really a fine line between a main character and a secondary character. Personally, I thought the old template was just fine, but if the move was insisted to be made to "other characters," at least split that into former main characters. And if it's that spoilery, people just shouldn't be looking at the page to begin with. The main page has the cast and characters, which also states when certain characters left. In addition, the individual pages of Ana Lucia, Boone, Libby, Michael, Shannon, and Walt say when they leave, again spoilery. Shouldn't we assume readers are up-to-date? However, I vouch a revert to the old one, still. 67.86.8.180 15:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted it to the old template with former main characters, only because 7 of the 22 overall main characters are now "former," and it's getting excessive I think. Maybe it should be centered, though? it's a little uneven, and it could look better. Thoughts? Jwebby91 04:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I still disagree - and the consensus is still that Rousseau does not qualify for the template.  --theDemonHog 05:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough (i'm guessing she will at some point maybe?) Jwebby91 00:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hopefully – a flashback from her would be so interesting.  --theDemonHog 23:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The New Template

message: Please, don't edit war. Discuss your changes first, develop consensus, then ask any passing admin to unprotect the page. Admins: Please remember to follow protected page guidelines. Thanks. ~Kylu (u|t)  03:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just noticed that my passing edit was reverted. I'm not involved in an edit war; in fact, I've never edited this template before. It's a navbox, and as such it should be set to class="navbox". Some viewers might want the option to hide navboxes globally, and with it set to class="toccolors" doing so is impossible as it hides the table of contents. I'm not sure why that was a revertible change, but I don't give enough of a shit to sit around and involve myself in the bureaucracy. Have fun. ericg ✈ 04:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: What edit war?  What are you talking about?   I am here to discuss the matter.  I have requested a discussion.  --Blue Tie 14:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Even though it's protected, here's something that should be changed: "Main Characters" should be changed to "Primary Characters," per the new changes on the Characters of Lost page. Also, it should link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_of_Lost#Primary_characters not just the character page as a whole. Jwebby91 00:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template protected 

message: I added the novel "Bad Twin" to the template, and someone took it off, saying that it should have been discussed first.  So, I propose that the novel Bad Twin be added to the Lost template.
My reasons for thinking it should be included are these: it is undeniably a part of the Lost universe, but is not really included in any other section of it, (the Lost Experience article only mentions it with four sentences).  It is also its own product, with absolutely no prior knowledge of The Lost Experience to enjoy it, so many people, (like myself), would search for it on the Lost pages and not necessarily know to look in The Lost Experience.  Because it is its own product, like the Soundtrack, it should be given its own link, and the confusion of those looking for it should be enough to solidify that position.  Any objections?  Nerrolken 07:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no Bad Twin article, it has merged with the Gary Troup character article.  I don't think that the character or book are an important enough part of the show to merit inclusion in the NavBox.  The character has a link on the character page, under "characters in other media" or something like that. Tulane97 16:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I know it's in the Gary Troup article, but when the Bad Twin information makes up 80% of the Gary Troup article, I don't think its too much of a stretch to refer to it as the Bad Twin article.  As for its importance, it is just as connected to the series as the Lost Experience is, and it is its own product, like the Soundtrack, so why not include it?  Nerrolken 07:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bad Twin 

message: While I totally agree that the Others' article should be Others, per WP:NAME#Avoid the definite article_ 28.22the.22.29 and the indefinite article .28.22a.22.2F.22an.22.29 at the beginning of the page name, there are two problems with listing the Others as Others on this template.  First off, never once on the show are the Others referred to as just Others.  Secondly, it might cause confusion to some readers, who might perceive Others to mean minor characters.  Therefore, I think it is clearer if we list The Others on the template.  Thanks.  --  Wikipedical 20:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree per WP:NAME#Avoid the definite article_ 28.22the.22.29 and the indefinite article .28.22a.22.2F.22an.22.29 at the beginning of the page name.  The same can be argued for the DHARMA Initiative or the Hanso Foundation.  --theDemonHog 00:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not only does the show always call the others The Others, the ABC press releases all capitalize "The Others" [].  I'd consider The Others a proper noun and make the article itself The Others.  "The" absolutely should be included when it's part of the name, per WP:NAME.  Another one I've noticed is The Lost Experience - the wp article quotes one early ABC press release where they call it Lost Experience, but every reference I've seen after that has been The Lost Experience.  --Milo H Minderbinder 16:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: So do we know Rose's last name for sure?  Henderson is obviously her maiden name, but do we know if she kept her name or changed it when she got married?  --Milo H Minderbinder 14:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Lost Magazine - Issue 7" reveals Rose and Bernard's surname to be Nadler.  I have not seen this for myself, but this came up at Lostpedia.  --Jabrwocky7 16:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could someone scan it?  --theDemonHog 02:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Others vs. Others 

message: Since November 15, numerous changes were made to the Nav which at the least should have been discussed prior to implementation. These include removal of some items; additions of others which do not deal with the TV series; change of division elements to "•"; and reordering items which had been previously decided upon. 
I am in favour of reverting it to the last consensus version:
Lost                 	Lost
Production:          	DVD releases | Episode list | Season 1 | Season 2 | Season 3
Primary characters:  	Ana Lucia | Ben |  Boone | Charlie | Claire | Desmond | Hurley | Jack | Jin | Juliet | Kate</br>Libby | Locke | Michael | Mr. Eko | Nikki | Paulo | Sawyer | Sayid | Shannon | Sun | Walt
Secondary characters:	Bernard | Others | Rose
Organizations:       	DHARMA Initiative | Hanso Foundation | Oceanic Airlines
Elements:            	DHARMA Initiative stations | List of crossovers | Mythology | Thematic motifs
Miscellaneous:       	Lost Experience | Oceanic Flight 815 | References in popular culture | Soundtrack
--LeflymanTalk 20:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm generally fine with the current version as of this writing, although I don't think Gary Troup, Rachel Blake or the Video Game (it's not released) need to be on there.  I prefer "The Others" and "Main/Supporting characters".  The organization and ordering doesn't really matter to me one way or the other, either looks fine (I'm also OK with the dots).  While I agree that there have been quite a few changes, and many without consensus, I don't think the end result is that different from what you propose.  --Milo H Minderbinder 21:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I am also in favor of "The Others," "Main" and "Supporting" Characters.  Furthermore, "list of crossovers" should be listed as crossovers anyway, and I have no problem with the Soundtrack under Production.  And frankly the dots are fine.  The new pages that were put onto the template are also Lost related, I don't see a problem with them.  However, if there is a consensus to change it back, I do NOT support a revert.  Just the removal of Rachel Blake, Troup, and the video game.  However, it should be noted that Rachel Blake, Troup, and the video game "deal" as much with the series as 'References in popular culture,' so my main opinion is to leave it be.  --  Wikipedical 23:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We have space, so I have no problem with Blake, Troup or the video game.  --thedemonhog 22:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Personally, I'm also fine with the current version. It now reflects that Ben and Juliet have star billing. The only thing I have against it is the heading "secondary characters" is a link. My aesthetics and the Wikipedia manual of style both suggest not putting links on headings, although I don't know if the manual of style guideline applies to boxouts or not. My suggestion would be to remove the link from the "Supporting Characters" have four links: "Bernard * Rose * The Others * further supporting characters". 62.31.67.29 14:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undiscussed changes to Nav