Talk:Oceania/Archive 2

message: Per the (other) continental articles and pending a groundswell of opposition, I've been bold and nixed the redundant list of territories which is essentially duplicated in the summative table; I've not detailed the political status of the various territories but I might later (this might be too much information for the current table).  Perhaps the column concerning population density can be retrofitted to succinctly detail political status instead.  Of course, this article (and similar continental/regional articles) can stand for some reorganisation (e.g., re-ordering of sxns) for consistency ... perhaps in a manner similar to the structure of country articles as prescribed in the country wikiproject?  Anyhow, there you go!`E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 11:45, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Re-organisation

message: In the Oceania page the listed "1 July 2002" population estimate is listed as 28,159,300 which is roughly 10% of the actual population.  As a result the tabulated population totals for Oceania is also correct.  I do not know what the actual number should be, but I do know it should be over 200,000,000. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.2.99.166 (talk • contribs) .
:How do you arrive at that figure? Are you including all of Indonesia (population over 200 million), not just the extreme eastern part (which has a population of under 5 million)? -- Avenue 23:14, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Population

message: It would seem unfair, almost strange, to place New Zealand in Polynesia, since Niue and Tokelau are New Zealand dependancies. I understand that New Zealand is a part of Polynesia, but I would think that it would be better to have it seperate, much like Australia is listed. I am talking about the Countries and territories of Oceania, that is displayed at the bottom of somepages, such as the Oceania page, Midway Atoll etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Phoenix715 (talk • contribs) .
:I don't follow why having Polynesian dependencies would make it strange to place NZ in Polynesia. Do you feel that only countries outside Polynesia should have dependencies there? -- Avenue 00:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, why is that a problem. Kahuroa 04:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not to do with Niue and Tokelau; it's because "New Zealand is within the Polynesian triangle and in this sense is part of Polynesia - the Māori of New Zealand constitute one of the major cultures of Polynesia." Nurg 02:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Zealand and Polynesia

message: According to the article, Indonesia is part of Oceania, but only half of the islands in the Indonesian Archipelago are highlighted in the world map. Is only half of the nation considered a part of Oceania? Or is the map inaccurate? Orichalcon 20:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no contradiction between the article text and the map, because the article says that only the eastern parts of Indonesia (beyond the Wallace Line) are considered part of Oceania. Do you have any suggestions for how we can make this clearer? -- Avenue 00:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, your snappy reply to my question is more than enough. Orichalcon 01:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I meant no offence. In hindsight my reply wasn't that tactful. What I should have said was that you are not the only person to misread the article in that way, so it would be good to make it clearer. And, having misread it, you are probably in a better position than most to judge where the article is confusing or unclear. I have reworded the introduction slightly to clarify which parts of Indonesia qualify. I'd appreciate any thoughts you have about whether this is clear enough, or any suggestions about how we could improve it. -- Avenue 01:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Understood. The only parts in the article that mention it are "those parts of Indonesia east of the Wallace Line" as well as the notes at the bottom. It was a brief enough mention that I didn't notice it until you pointed out that it was indeed there. If as you said I'm not the only person who's asked that before, maybe it should be made clearer with its own paragraph or a more clarifying description. Since I don't really understand why only half the country is considered a part of Oceania myself. After having a read of what the Wallace Line is, which seems to just be a distinction of different animal species, I don't really understand how it relates to defining what is considered a part of Oceania. Maybe pointing out in this article how that all works and citing an official source on it? I don't know. Either way, that's all that's really confusing me. I've always considered all of Indonesia part of Oceania, which is also what I was taught in school. Orichalcon 10:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would guess that it's because the continent of Oceania is being defined by geologists - largely in terms of different tectonic plates - and the underlying reason behind the different species either side of the Wallace Line is that the two regions sit on different plates - the single nation of Indonesia spanning both of them. In the same way that Russia spans Europe and Asia, and until mid-late 19th Century also had a toehold in North America (Alaska). 4u1e 02:09, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's actually a very good point. Perhaps the explanation about the tectonic plates should be added to the article along with some references and a diagram. It makes it more clear as to why Oceania includes those indonesian islands and not the others. Orichalcon 03:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indonesia 

message: East Timor is part of Asia, Southeast Asia more specifically, PERIOD! Even while East Timor has cultural and linguistical ties with "Melanesia" it is geographically part of Asia (Southeast Asia) and universally accepted so. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.255.230.227 (talk • contribs) .
*Removed your bolding again, please stop that.
*"PERIOD!" is not an argument.
*"Universally accepted," of course, is exactly the problem--along boundaries things are sometimes fuzzy or disputed, and this is one case. Our own article on East Timor says "Contrary to common misconception, most of the inhabitants of archipelagic Southeast Asia are not Pacific Islanders. However, it is worth noting that the eastern parts of Indonesia and Timor-Leste (east of Wallace line) are geographically parts of Oceania." Various other sources, including the UN, divide things up differently. All we can do is report the varying interpretations, and we do that.
· rodii · 13:57, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  East Timor is part of Asia, Southeast Asia more specifically. 

message: I find the table much harder to read now that the countries are called by their formal names, following this edit by 71.99.110.7. I'm tempted to change them back. Any thoughts? -- Avenue 02:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support that. If readers need to know official names, they're in the individual country articles. · rodii · 04:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I support as well, this is a nightmare to read now. The countries should go by their casual names, who calls Australia "The Commonwealth of Australia"? Sure it's a commonwealth, but that'd be like calling Christmas "Christmas, the birth of Jesus Christ, day." Switch it back. Orichalcon 05:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I support switching it back.-gadfium 06:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The anon who switched to the formal names also switched all the other continent articles to such names. I'm not aware of any policy or even discussion on which style should be used. I think this should be discussed at a more central location; perhaps Village pump (policy), and all continent articles should use a uniform style. I'll invite the anon to join this discussion initially.-gadfium 06:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Lol, "Christmas, the birth of Jesus Christ, day." I'm fine w/it, I guess I just did it to see if anyone would've cared, I mean the short forms are in the official names.71.99.110.7 06:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formal country names 

message: Who uses this term? I think it was used in the 19th century, and it may be the correct name for the region in some languages, but in English it seems rather obscure. A Google search for "Oceanica" restricted to English language sites showed mainly commercial sites, not references to the region, some antique maps, and some dictionary entries saying it was a synonym. My feeling is that it should not get equal billing with "Oceania" in the first paragraph.-gadfium 23:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello!  I added this to the lead based on this entry in The Columbia Encyclopedia.  I think it is still a legitimate entitlement; however, I will edit the lead to reflect the predominance of the familiar term. Cogito ergo sumo 03:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd seen that article, and considered it as essentially a dictionary entry. I'm satisfied with the change you made to the lead.-gadfium 03:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great -- thanks! Cogito ergo sumo 03:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oceanica