Talk:Football hooliganism/Archive 1

message: The article is BADLY in need of a total overhaul, for numerous reasons and due to several problems, which I will briefly list below.
* Neutrality -- Quite simply, it's not all there.  It has gotten better after I deleted several unfounded statements by a recent author purporting to know for a fact that racism was the motivation behind various acts of hooliganism against certain people, despite the fact that there doesn't appear to be any necessary component to being a hooligan except a complete lack of civility and a penchant for ignoring the laws of civilized society (which is what I'm understanding 'hooligan' to mean).
* Lack of citations -- There are well over 50 statements in the entire article in need of proper citation.  Several statements in need of support include the charging of six French fans with "racism" (I wasn't aware it was an actual crime in France); hooligans operating "with total impunity" and perhaps even on the payroll of certain teams or clubs (I'm sure the team officials would disagree); Glasgow not being an inhabitable city at certain times (I'm sure some of its residents might disagree); Danish and Brazilian fans being angels and completely above reproach anywhere except in their own countries (I'm sure other counties may disagree).
* Brazil -- This whole section is in need of help.  Not only does it contain statements which mean nothing to a reader on a daily basis, such as "Only in the last 6 months, more than 8 deaths have been linked to ..."  Last 6 months of what?  And since when?  Also, there is a list of all supporter groups in Brazil which has no place in this article, unless the author is somehow suggesting ALL of these groups and all the people in them are football hooligans (which DEFINITELY would need a citation!).
* In need of wikification -- Both the Brazil and Turkey sections are very poorly formatted and in need of well ... paragraphs, for one.  The 'ethnic violence' section has almost nothing to do with ethnic violence anymore, and appears to be merely a list of things that have occurred in Australia (also not in proper Wiki format).  
Can we just start over?  It may be worth it, at this point, to scrap almost all of the information EXCEPT those with strong, reliable citations.  Plus, the article would be a lot shorter.   
Is it even necessary to break the article up into country sections?  Is it necessary to list every single act of hooliganism that any author that happens by can think of?  Doesn't hooliganism occur after pretty much every single soccer game???  --ThatBajoranGuy 09:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think anyone suggested that Brazilian fans are angels.  Certainly I didn't mean to, if that's what you were referring to.  I just said that "hooliganism", as it is defined in wikipedia, doesn't appear to apply to Brazilian fans.  Yesterday there was violence at the Gre-Nal game in Porto Alegre, but while there is some violence, there is no Brazilian equivalent to the organized hooligan groups associated with teams like Chelsea and West Ham.  The definition given in the first sentence of this article seems incomplete -- hooliganism isn't the occasional fight that breaks out during a game, it's the result of organized gangs -- and these organized gangs don't exist in Brazil, or if they do they have a very low profile. Zerologic 00:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with ThatBajoranGuy, this article should be about generic Football hooliganism, not about the various historical violent confrontations. So it should be about it's origins and causes etc. Alun 13:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article's horrible. I also agree that it's silly to list a few countries (trust me, there are at least 15 majorly notable hooligan countries missing from that list). Instead of talking about what hooliganism is and why it occurs and whatnot, it just gives a few examples from a few countries that aren't even properly cited. A rewrite with a balanced spread of examples (in case of England where it caused a 5 year ban is possibly an exception, I don't think any other country received that harsh a punishment for any reason) is probably in order. MonsterOfTheLake 18:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complete Rewrite 

message: why shouldn't there be specific instances listed?  I looked up the damn topic because I wanted to read about the Hillsborough tragedy and I didn't know what it was called.  If you re-write the whole thing to spare someone's sensitive poor baby feelings you'll make the whole thing worthless.
::I agree that the majority of these incidents need to be on wikipedia as it is an encyclopedia. Perhaps having a seperate article of football hooliganism and renaming this one to 2Incidents of Football hooliganism" may be a good idea. Englishrose 23:56, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  specific instances 

message: someone should really add to that section
:Isn't Latin America notable for football hooliganism? That's certainly the impression. MonsterOfTheLake 18:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your input, however, this article is not about who is or isn't the foremost hooligan firm in each country, it is just about hooliganism in general. And if you see the recent edits on the article and comments toward the bottom of this talk page, there has been a lot of work done on the article, including the section on Argentina which before, was unsourced information. I will have a look to see if there is any English language source for the incidents you cite, thanks.♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 20:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hooliganism in Argentina

message: First of all, hooliganism doesn't exist in Brazil as I understand the term.  There are organized fan groups, like those in the list, but they are fans -- they don't go to games to fight, they go to the stadium to watch the game.  They do sometimes fight with fans from other teams, but that's why they exist.  I'll wait for a while, but if no one can offer a compelling reason to keep the section on Brazil then I will delete it.
Zerologic 13:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't write it, I would have sourced it myself. I'll look into it. These statements need to be sourced and verified, you're exactly right. To be honest, it did raise an eyebrow when I read it. Englishrose 22:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hooliganism in Brazil

message: I've added a Russuian riot and a link. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.29.250.206 (talk) 05:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russia 

message: New imfo and links found.
Try- []
I did, what a intresting, if tradgic list of events.--86.29.243.34 (talk) 02:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Africa. 

message: Urgent work need, new articals and links comming!Argentina, Brazil and Mexico are all trobelsome!
--Homer slips. 03:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latin America. 

message: I've just got a link to a Chinese football riot.  It will be added soon.
This peace is of doubiouse value. Was it just cooked up by an anti-Chinese think tank or what?!
--86.25.51.113 07:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This - Chinese riot after Japan victory is hardly "cooked up", and the article is therefore not dubious. Stating simple facts is not anti-Chinese. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 13:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  China!!! 

message: I've found a N. Korean soccer riot now!
--Homer slips. 15:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: N. Korea.