Talk:Revolutions of 1989

message: Moved from Talk:Revolutions of 1989, now a redirect.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Clearly the article needs an overall discussion section and perhaps one detailing the academic controversy. But the governments in question did change, and that's encyclopedic. This article provides a necessary overview to the process, and should cover the factual side. The "meaning" of the revolutions is a social analysis which is separate from documenting the transfer of power. --Dhartung | Talk 07:06, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: But the governments in question did change, and that's encyclopedic. Sure. I'd just add to the above that the distinction between the "factual side" and the "social analysis" is not so clear cut. Analysis and editorial judgment always underpin the presentation of all facts. An infinite amount of information can be provided on any subject, but we always make a judgment on what to include or exclude. The way in which we go about 'documenting the transfer of power', as you put it, is implicitly a social analysis of meaning in and of itself. On one hand, if the article is structured along the lines of a country-by-country chronology of the dramatic events unfolding in the Eastern European capitals in 1989, as it is now, the implicit assumption is that the events are clearly interconnected, with the agents of change each time being Eastern Europeans who finally stood up to Communism and overthrew it. On the other hand, if the narrative is a chronology of the shifts in Kremlin policy on Eastern Europe under Gorbachev, the events start to look less like a series of global "revolutions"; instead, they start looking like the dramatic aftershocks of the effects on power relations between the Soviet Union and the East European countries caused by the breakdown of the Communist regime in Moscow, and more explicable by factors internal to the Soviet system. So, we have two plausible organizations for on this topic that leave us dramatically different impressions of what was going on. In this sense the organization of the article is "analysis" in and of itself. Moreover, there is the problem that drafting a country-by-country chronology under the heading of "revolutions" of 1989 means that Wikipedia is explicitly classifying the events as all part of the same "revolution." Of course a series of 'regimes changed' in 1989; but a series of 'regimes change' every year. Nor is any 'change in a regime' necessarily a revolution. In short, since the concept of "revolutions of 1989" is still on the murky side, the most neutral organizational structure possible on this subject is one putting the discourse and perspectives on the events at the center of its focus, while moving the chronology to the various timelines on 1989 and pages related to contemporary Eastern European history. 172 08:16, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments about a premerge Revolutions of 1989 article 

message: Although a lot of good content has made posted in this article, the structure that seems to be taking shape here is problematic. The current country-by-country list tends to oversimplify matters. It disregards the fact that there is still considerable discussion and debate about the meaning of events in 1989 and to what extent they were interconnected. As the events were going on, the leading participants in these conflicts were outlining a debate that is only now beginning to drawn up in clear categories among historians and scholars in other fields. The leading anticommunist politicians of Europe, including Thatcher, Kohl, Havel, and Walesa, saw the events as clearly interconnected, with Eastern Europeans finally standing up to communism and overthrowing it. Thatcher considered "the fall of communism" a triumph of freedom and capitalism, which became the prevailing view in Britain and the United States. In Russia, however, Gorbachev, among many others, has accused Western leaders of writing a victor's history, triumphalism, and even Bolshevik-style rhetoric owing to a narrow ideology.
In the decade after 1989, accounts of the events in the West have generally reflected the views of the key actors who had participated in them, but a much more nuanced picture is emerging among historians and scholars in other fields. There is debate on who were the major protagonists in these "revolutions." Were they popular or elite revolutions? What should we mean by "revolution?"  What gave the "revolutions" their particular character? Or was there even a particular character encompassing all of them? On a broader level, how should we categorize these revolutions and what factors do they share with revolutions of the past?
The consensus among academic Soviet specialists is that as important as the 1989 "revolutions" in Eastern Europe were, the events were linked to a breakdown of Communist rule in the Soviet Union. This breakdown was a much longer, more involved process explained by various factors internal to the Soviet system, relations between the Soviet Union and the East European countries, and the international political and economic context. As another example, specialists on democracy offer a somewhat different account. To them the "revolutions" of 1989 were subsumed under a much larger wave of democratization that started in Southern Europe in the 1970s and then swept through Latin America, and into the Soviet bloc, culminating in the "revolutions" of 1989, which is a thesis most popularly associated with Samuel P. Huntington.
I am not seeking to minimize the importance of any of these events in Eastern Europe or question speaking in terms of this category. But since the term "revolutions of 1989" was a neologism hardly more than a decade ago, with a scholarly literature only beginning to crystallize very recently, there is no way for this article to keep its current structure without inadvertently adopting many assumptions that are still getting sorted out by historians, social scientists, and even the participants in the events themselves. Thus, this article should not be an almanac-style chronology, assuming that any such event was indeed a "revolution" and indeed connected with all the other "revolutions" in 1989 (which brings us into very slippery ground with respect to WP:NOR and WP:NPOV), but rather an article on the discourse and various interpretations of the events of 1989. 172 | Talk 20:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Clearly the article needs an overall discussion section and perhaps one detailing the academic controversy. But the governments in question did change, and that's encyclopedic. This article provides a necessary overview to the process, and should cover the factual side. The "meaning" of the revolutions is a social analysis which is separate from documenting the transfer of power. --Dhartung | Talk 07:06, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: But the governments in question did change, and that's encyclopedic. Sure. I'd just add to the above that the distinction between the "factual side" and the "social analysis" is not so clear cut. Analysis and editorial judgment always underpin the presentation of all facts. An infinite amount of information can be provided on any subject, but we always make a judgment on what to include or exclude. The way in which we go about 'documenting the transfer of power', as you put it, is implicitly a social analysis of meaning in and of itself. On one hand, if the article is structured along the lines of a country-by-country chronology of the dramatic events unfolding in the Eastern European capitals in 1989, as it is now, the implicit assumption is that the events are clearly interconnected, with the agents of change each time being Eastern Europeans who finally stood up to Communism and overthrew it. On the other hand, if the narrative is a chronology of the shifts in Kremlin policy on Eastern Europe under Gorbachev, the events start to look less like a series of global "revolutions"; instead, they start looking like the dramatic aftershocks of the effects on power relations between the Soviet Union and the East European countries caused by the breakdown of the Communist regime in Moscow, and more explicable by factors internal to the Soviet system. So, we have two plausible organizations for on this topic that leave us dramatically different impressions of what was going on. In this sense the organization of the article is "analysis" in and of itself. Moreover, there is the problem that drafting a country-by-country chronology under the heading of "revolutions" of 1989 means that Wikipedia is explicitly classifying the events as all part of the same "revolution." Of course a series of 'regimes changed' in 1989; but a series of 'regimes change' every year. Nor is any 'change in a regime' necessarily a revolution. In short, since the concept of "revolutions of 1989" is still on the murky side, the most neutral organizational structure possible on this subject is one putting the discourse and perspectives on the events at the center of its focus, while moving the chronology to the various timelines on 1989 and pages related to contemporary Eastern European history. 172 08:16, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article needs restructuring 

message: The Autumn of Nations begun in Poland[3]. and sparked similar peaceful revolutions in Germany), Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania.
I don't think the Romanian revolution was peaceful. --Candide, or Optimism 01:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point - added the qualifier 'mostly'.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:03, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peaceful revolutions? 

message: Who coined the term Autumn of Nations? --BillC 12:31, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And how much currency does it have? Seems to me like someone's neolgism that didn't catch (233 Google  hits), and hence a poor title for an article. In any case, I've done my best at cleanup, but perhaps this should be merged into Revolutions of 1989? -- Jmabel | Talk 22:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh, good find. Revolutions of 1989 is certainly more popular (40k for Google, and hundreds of books). But as it was poorly linked from other Wikipedia articles, I must have missed it when I was looking for interwiki for the Polish article - so I translated it using the terms in it (which as you can see are supported by some citations, and on the sidenote the revolutions article is completly unreferenced). I agree we should merge both articles, probably under the 'revolutions' title - although I'd appreciate it if this (or merged?) article could still go for DYK.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:29, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't really do DYK unless it's new (and you can't get there by writing a second article on the same topic: if I used smilies, I'd put one here). - Jmabel | Talk 04:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: So did I. Should we move it back then?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:06, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I certainly think so. In fact, I will. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:35, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Umm, how do one  merges history of articles? That's a useful trick to know.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You have to be an admin; it involves a series of deletions, moves and restorations. Frankly, it's tedious and error-prone. The best explanation is at Wikipedia:How to fix cut and paste moves, but I still occasionally mess it up. - Jmabel | Talk 00:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am an admin :) Tnx for the link, I'll check it out. We are always learning, aren't we? :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The term 

message: Can someone come up with a better citation for "Spring of Nations"? Of course the term is common, so it should be easy to find something, but as far as I can tell it is not used at all on the cited page. - Jmabel | Talk 22:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation for Spring of Nations 

message: In this section, can we re-write the image caption, please?  While it is factually correct, in the picture it looks like Yeltsin is accusing Gorbachev, not the other way around.  I am not sure what would be better wording, so I'm leaving it as is for now.  Thanks.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 12:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Collapse of the Soviet Union 

message: The expression "Autumn of Nations" has simply not gained traction. Outside of Wikipedia and its mirrors, it does not even get 100 Google hits. I am strongly inclined to remove it from the article. The analogy to an inverse of the "Spring of Nations" is weak, at best: after all, it's not as if in '89 a bunch of nations were swallowed up by an empire. It's pretty much a neologism, and I don't think it should be here. - Jmabel | Talk 04:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Over 10 notable publications vote 'keep' :) Seriously, if it's good enough for a notable scholar like Arend Lijphart, it's good enough for us.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  05:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Could you please add the three of these you consider the most significant to the article as citations? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 02:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The term didn't catch up: compare 13 Google scholar hits versus 1,300 hits for "revolutions of 1989". IMO it should be deleted, not every failed neologism is WP notable. Pavel Vozenilek 00:59, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As Google is scanning more books, now the search yelds 25 publications. I think that's notble enough for an inclusion.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  01:32, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  These books have hundredths of pages and mention many trivialities. Neologisms should be accepted on WP if they really catch on as a recognizable symbols. Pavel Vozenilek 16:10, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  At this time, I recommend against inclusion of this term.  It has simply not gained widespread usage.  And it is not the place of Wikipedia or its editors to campaign for such.  Unschool 21:43, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autumn of Nations 

message: Technically, it is incorrect to call these events "the collapse of communism" or the "overthrowing of communist states" becouse there was no communism or even socialism for that matter in the first place. It should be called "the collapse of Stalinism". More precicely, it was the last phase of the stalinist counter-revolution wich was initiated in the USSR in the mid 1920's. The bureaucratic upper caste transformed itself into the new bourgeoisie (capitalist class) in the events of 1989. Ocrouse, parts of the old stalinist caste wanted to keep their bonapartist position, and they offered resistance to the other parts of the bureaucratic caste.
It should also be noted that the working class, wich was a significant force in these revolutions, were in the first place fed up with the stalinist regime. The revolutionairy wave was initiated by them, but this wave did not at all have the aim to restore capitalism. It was just aimed against the stalinist bureaucracy. The revolution could well have turned into a political revolution as was argued for by Leon Trotsky. Wich means that the working class would reclaim the power and controll over the means of production and the planned economy, and thus be on the way to socialism again. However, the bureaucracy saw the direction of the movement, and parts of them decided to push the movement into the way of capitalist restoration. The workers, lacking a revolutionairy vanguard in the form of a party, went with this current fed by illusions in capitalism.
In the end, dispite the nature of the former regimes, the event was used by the capitalist class to initiate a ideologial offensive against the ideas of socialism, marxism and communism. This has indeed an effect on a world scale, the workers' movement took a major blow at that time of wich it is still recovering. The interesting thing is once again that communism and marxism could not at all be held responsible for the crimes of the stalinist remgimes, wich were first of all aimed at the distruction of the gains and power of the workers and the socialist revolution.
It is like a wolf dressed up like a sheep. The wolf is the badguy while the sheeps get all the blaim for his actions.
Bobby Siecker 17-7-2007
:Technically, stalinism ended in 1950s with destalinization, and revolutions of 1989 meant the fall of the Eastern Bloc and its version of communism. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  09:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As as leftist myself, I feel okay with the title, mainly because of the negative connotations the words socialism and communism has in the West. In a sense, the title is correct, given that the modern English definition (or colloquial defn) of communism pretty much links that word to all of these Stalinist (if you will) regimes. 207.216.33.144 (talk) 09:34, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: And here we go again. Why is it that whenever the crimes committed by communist regimes are catalogued, someone always claims those regimes were not "truly communist"?  It seems the definition of communism is strangely elastic, and that definition only seems to change when someone points out how prolific the communists were when it came to committing mass murder.  The notion that the name of this entry should be changed is absurd.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.141.152.194 (talk) 07:47, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

text: We're not committing the Scotsman fallacy. Socialism has a definition, like other words do, which is worker-ownership of the means of production. If the Eastern Block and SU's workers ran everything, they were socialist. If the people couldn't set policy, then they weren't socialist. It's so simple. Socialistguy (talk) 06:12, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You're conducting POV original research. What matters is how it's described in reliable sources. And no, fringe communist and/or Stalinist sources are not reliable. Volunteer Marek  06:37, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Would Revolution 1989: The Fall of the Soviet Empire, by Victor Sebestyen (2009) do? It's in the references to this article, and Mr. Sebestyen is hardly a fringe communist or Stalinist. He makes the point that one of the big problems the Polish government had with Solidarność was over their "communist" identity. If Poland was, as the government claimed, a communist state, then the idea of a trade union would be completely nonsensical. The workers in a communist state own the means of production and therefore have no need of unions. When the government recognized Solidarność as a legitimate union, they de facto acknowledged that they weren't really a communist state. Fcrary (talk) 20:22, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not the fall of communism but the fall of stalinism 

message: I just wrote a small article on the 1990 Democratic Revolution in Mongolia. My impression is that it should be included here, even if it was a bit of a late-comer. The background, course of events, and outcome are all quite similar (pro-Soviet dictatorship -> largely peaceful protests -> democracy & market economy), the difference is maybe that the ruling party won the ensuing elections, and their pre-1990 politicians are still quite respected. Yaan (talk) 19:27, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Yaan. I think Mongolia deserves a place in this article.--GenuineMongol (talk) 11:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine! Now we only need a volunteer, plus maybe some reliable sources. Yaan (talk) 10:50, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mongolia 

message: I think the following sentence seems to make no real sense: 
The GDR never wanted to make "disgruntled citizens" "leave permanently". Otherwise there would have been no need to erect a wall in the first place. They also did not want this in November 1989, all reports seem to indicate that the opning of the wall was one big accident (a fortunate one, I must say though). If anything the problem with opening the wall were that it instilled a sense of "anything is possible", fueled patriotism/nationalism, awakened the desire for eventual reunification, and maybe gave the west more opportunities of influence East Germany. But disgruntled protestors really had been marching since early October, notably on Nov. 4th, 5 days before the wall fell. That protestors would not start to emigrate en masse just at the moment they began to feel a change for the better and the leverage they had seems very logical to me, so why this very logical behaviour should be mentioned is unclear. On the other hand, it also seems unclear how mass emigration would have helped to stabilize the regime.
I will therefore delete this sentence. Yaan (talk) 14:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  East Germany 

message: I know it would later collaps in to civil war but i'd like to here abour events in yugoslavia or at least albania and how the communist party was overtrown in each of the constetute states --J intela (talk) 06:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In Yugoslavia, there was no "individual revolution" as such which overthrew Communism. The transition from one party republic to democracy happened in phases, similar on a smaller picture to what was happening across the Soviet Union. To that end, all former Yugoslav republics still have their former Communist party as a major party; some were even led to independence by their Communist parties, but none of this happened before 1990 when those former branches shifted towards centre and became plain socialist parties. Evlekis (talk) 05:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yugoslavia 

message: The image :Image:Policemen and flowers.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
The following images also have this problem:
*:      File:Baltic Way.jpg
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --21:25, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image copyright problem with Image:Policemen and flowers.jpg 

message: To describe events in these countries as a "revolutionary tide" is a violation of Wikipedia's policies. Scholars do not describe these developments as revolutionary. Rather, they were palace coups.
"Bulgaria underwent a palace coup that ousted Todor Zhivkov and elevated reformist leaders to power." 
Commitment to Purpose, Richard L. Kugler. Page 500
"There was a palace coup: Honecker was forced by the Party to resign on 18 October." 
The Last Division, Ann Tusa
"The situation in Romania was similar to that in Bulgaria. At the end of 1989, Party officials bent on ousting Ceausescu launched a coup, staging armed clashes."
From Communists to Foreign Capitalists, Nina Bandelj
"There were no mass demonstrations and there was no change in government. It was not a revolution. It was a palace coup."
Eastern Europe, Sabrina P. Ramet
At the May, 1988 communist party conference János Kádár and hisfollowers were ousted in a coup
RZimmerwald (talk) 17:32, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahem, there were mass demonstrations in East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Poland etc. It is also very easy to find scholars describing those events as "revolution" (quotation marks mine) Yaan (talk) 18:59, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: To have deleted sourced observations from scholars as you have constitutes vandalism. Please refrain from such actions in the future. RZimmerwald (talk) 19:32, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

text: It is very dishonest for you to selectively pluck quotations in an attempt to push an agenda. Such tactics show a lack of scholarly integrity. The above sources I have cited describe these developments as palace coups. RZimmerwald (talk) 17:58, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: q.e.d. Yaan (talk) 20:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Whats the matter? Are you afraid that this "troll" might actually help balance out this caddywompus excuse of an article? Pot calling the kettle black is what we have here. Same goes for the rest of you who want to nitpick on minutia instead of responding to the actual content of what is being said. But if the hypocritical and one sided tone of this article is any indication, I'd say that I'm talking to its current monopoly owners, pun intented. Back off and let the people speak. 2601:601:9C80:8660:0:0:0:E6C2 (talk) 07:40, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Revolution" 

message: I am tempted to classify Carnation Revolution together with such as Revolutions of 1989, Singing Revolution and others as :Category:Endgames of totalitarian systems, albeit perhaps with a slightly less ambitious title.  Thoughts? ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 20:14, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Endgames of totalitarian systems 

message: I have decided to remove the map currently shown, but I'd invite people to re-introduce one that accurately depicts the situation, or a different image altogether. The reason given above for its inclusion is nowhere near good enough and does not address its clear inaccuries, and there doesn't seem to be much consensus or any good argument for its maintenance. Not merely does it fail to portray Albania and Romania correctly, as already mentioned, but it does the same on the Blue side, showing countries like Finland and Austria as western when they were expressly neutral, a position adopted to avoid Soviet intervention in their countries. Spain and Portugal are also generally seen as outside of this group, especially during their period of dictatorship.--Nwe (talk) 22:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I had created a map for another article that fit perfectly here.  It contains the status of the territories of former Eastern Bloc countries, new country names and the dates on which Communist rule ended in each.  Note that it also depicts Yugoslavia and Albania as separate from the satellite states of the Bloc. Instead of deleting the current Iron Curtain map, I moved it down to the section describing the Iron Curtain and interactions with the west.Mosedschurte (talk) 21:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to me that the years for (at least) the Baltic states are incorrect. If the map is explained as "year when communist rule ended", then Estonia would be 1990, when the first democratic elections were held and an interim government set up. Same story with Latvia and Lithuania. If you want to keep the map as it is, then you should come with a really good explanation under it in the article, since 1990 for Lithuania and 1991 for Latvia and Estonia is the year when they declared independence from the Soviet Union, not the year they got free (1991 for all three, since that was when the Soviet Union recognised their independence) nor the year communist rule ended (1990 for all three, as explained). Their dates don't correspond with the rest of the countries on the map..--H2ppyme (talk) 10:01, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Map 

message: I've removed the links for the Western betrayal and the Late-2000s recession from the See Also section. While the Western Betrayal is clearly an important part of a broad study of the Cold War, I don't see how it is specifically related to the 1989 revolutions to a greater extent than other events not linked here. I also can't see any reason why the current recession should be included here - it has not at this stage had the same effect as the 1989 revolutions, and I haven't seen much in the way of sourced evidence to suggest that it is expected to.
There are a number of other links there which are possibly out of place too, such as Ján Čarnogurský and JBTZ-trial, though I think it is fairly clear they are directly related to the subject. Perhaps improvement could be made by including similar articles of events and personalities involved in the events of 1989? --Nick Moss (talk) 06:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's Moldavia in English.  The map shows the modern countries, or technically those in 2008 (not the legal state lines existing at the time communism ended), and the year communism ended in each area.Mosedschurte (talk) 01:10, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relevance of Links in See Also 

message: Isn't it Moldova, not Moldavia? Also, why are the states of Yugoslavia portrayed separately? In 1991 Yugoslavia emerged as a single country and wasn't broken up into the modern nations of Serbia, Montenegro, etc yet.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.19.188.252 (talk) 15:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's Moldavia in English.  The map shows the modern countries, or technically those in 2008 (not the legal state lines existing at the time communism ended), and the year communism ended in each area.Mosedschurte (talk) 01:10, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Map Nitpicking 

message: The "online museum" lacks curatorial information, its "Contact us" results in a 403 html error, and it lacks provenance / curatorial information.  A wiki article about such an institution is unsustainable, holding a red link for it is somewhat perverse. Fifelfoo (talk) 05:09, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of red link Global Museum On Communism, an online museum 

message: Why are we referring to the event that brought down much of the Communist Bloc in the plural? It looks like one big revolution to me, an event that started somewhere and spread like a forest fire to other places, and continued spreading. So why not Revolution of 1989?  —  Rickyrab | Talk 18:56, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I Googled the term and the phrase "Revolution of 1989" is often qualified with "Romanian" or "East German", even though the "Romanian Revolution" or "East German Revolution" were arguably part of the same event. One author out there, T. Kuran, calls the event the "East European Revolution of 1989", but another, Stefan Auer, refers to it in the plural as "revolutions". The literature tends to break it up into bits and pieces, such as the Peaceful Revolution in Germany/ East German Revolution, Romanian Revolution, and Velvet Revolution, and here we come to a halt, because apparently the writers about such revolutions forget about Poland, Hungary, and other bloc countries (oops!).  —  Rickyrab | Talk 19:14, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wasn't it really one big revolution? 

message: under the heading:
Concurrently, many anti-Communist authoritarian states, formerly supported by the US, gradually saw a transition to democracy.
Israel is mentioned as "accepted" the oslo accords
First of all, Israel, led By Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin were the ones that proposed the Oslo accord on the first place. saying it accepted it is a euphemism.
secondly, Israel is definetaely not an anti-communit authoritatrian state!
it is very much a democracy, always was- feel free to check its own wikipedia entries or ask any historians, and yes it may have issues with democracy, like many countries, but it IS NOT an authoritarian state.
if anything, I would classify it under "communist and socialist countries" as for the majority of its first 40 years of history it was established and ran as a SOCIALIST COUNTRY, and the collapse of the soviet union in fact in many ways affected its left wing and socialist parties, to the point were the right wing capitalist parties are the dominant force there today.
I am not a wikipedia pro so I don't quite have the refference to explain that, but for me most of it is common knowledge.
however at the very least I would remove what is currently placed is that is definately wrong and not citated!!!!
feeel free to contact me taljonnie@gmail.com
Tal  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.132.176.36 (talk) 05:24, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, why is the United States listed in the section concerning countries that were supported by the United States? The United States supported the United States?74.141.152.194 (talk) 07:54, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israel is an anti-communist authoritarian state? really? 

message: In many of the countries mentioned majority of population now regrets these events. Even in Poland a signficant part of population was dissapointed and in polls states that life before 1989 was better(for instance around 45-47% former members of Solidarity claimed so in poll couple of years ago). Vast economic issues like rise in poverty and unemployment and destruction of economies of these countries need to be covered, as well as consequences such as war,displacement of people,falling birth rates.MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:04, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  One sided article-lacks important information 

message: I think the template box should have an image of the fall of the Berlin Wall in the template box.
Possibly :File:Thefalloftheberlinwall1989.JPG.
602p (talk) 18:00, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image in template box? 

message: In this article the border length is 150 miles (241 km) while in other articles it is 346km. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_of_Hungary%27s_border_fence_with_Austria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Austria
A quick Google maps search makes me think the 346 km is correct. Tommiwiki (talk) 19:44, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Length of Austria-Hungarian border 

message: The current introduction to this article includes the text:
"The adoption of varying forms of market economy immediately resulted in a general decline in living standards,[11] birth rates and life expectancies in post-Communist States...."
Does that really reflect the weight of scholarly opinion on Eastern European history in the years after 1989?  Because while I'm not a historian focusing on recent European history, from the knowledge base that I do have it seems very unlikely that that statement could correctly be applied to the experiences that Poland, the former East Germany, the former Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Lithuanian, Latvia, Estonia, and probably some other areas/countries I'm omitting had in the first years post-1989.  Indeed, my amateur's understanding is that those countries, and most others relevant to this article, did not, in fact, experience the kind of economic and social troubles that beset Russia and a few other ex-USSR nations in the early 1990's.  Just the opposite, in fact.
The referenced "source" cited for the statement is no help whatsoever, being both in a language I don't know and making no sense to me at all when run through Google translator.  Am I really this ignorant about this topic ?  Or is this person who inserted that passage making a claim about the "general" decline of the places affected by the 1989 revolutions that isn't supported at all by any substantial weight of scholarly opinion? (BTW, those questions are genuine. The fortunes of these places in the years after 1989 seems to me an important point to get right in the article.)
24.3.48.180 (talk) 07:32, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Poland and debatable the Baltics are the only countries where quality of life improved. Everywhere else it plummeted post capitalist-restoration, especially in the USSR 94.189.193.233 (talk) 16:52, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  General Decline in Living Standards As a Result? Really?? 

message: Shouldn't it say fall of state capitalism, instead? A communist state is one on the path of achieving socialism, which means worker-ownership of the means of production. Were these countries even close to that, at all? Didn't the power of the Supreme Soviet (AFAIK the democratic aspect of it) fade when Stalin rose? The problem with the argument that Western sources use the term communism is that many, if not most, are blatantly biased, and don't use the terms correctly. There are plenty of sources explaining this. Can we please reword it? Socialistguy (talk) 14:40, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The only question that matters for Wikipedia is how this event is described in reliable sources. Is it described as "Fall of State Capitalism"? No. It's usually described as "Fall of Communism" and so that's how we describe it. Volunteer Marek  14:54, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

text: And Wikipedia is a mainstream encyclopedia which means it uses mainstream academic and scholarly sources. So if you think that "Western sources" are "blatantly biased" and shouldn't be used, then this project may not be for you. There's plenty of other outlets on the internet for that. Volunteer Marek  14:55, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: , is there another section where I may add a leftist criticism of the term's usage using the sources, or a template I can use to notify readers that the context in which the term is used isn't accurate in the literal sense? Socialistguy (talk) 18:40, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Guess Volunteer Marek has nothing intelligent to say in response. I think its disgusting how this article is written. I couldn't find a better example of the 'victors rewriting history' if I tried. This article is also a prime example of Wikipedia's limitations. 2601:601:9C80:8660:0:0:0:E6C2 (talk) 07:23, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: What I'm seeing here is that popular opinion trumps factual accuracy. How is that useful to anyone? Shame on these pro-West ideologues who would rather parrot Ronald Reagan and the Bush family than seek the truth. Their conniving has a very negative effect on the quality of information that Wikipedia disseminates to the world. Way to boost the site's credibily. 2601:601:9C80:8660:0:0:0:E6C2 (talk) 07:29, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Isn't Fall of Communism inaccurate? 

message: See changes made here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Revolutions_of_1989&type=revision&diff=695585523&oldid=695565205 . All the bridging edits were made by the same user. I'm going to go through each individual addition.
*Acceleration of globalization 
Perhaps, but this hasn't been referenced here or anywhere else in the article.
*Welfare reform in the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and Western Europe
Again, perhaps but not referenced here or anywhere else.
*An increase in the popularity of far right ideologies such as libertarianism, Austrian economics and neo-Nazism
Perhaps but not referenced here or anywhere else. Potential NPOV violation from describing libertarianism and Austrian economics as far right ideologies. Austrian economics isn't an Ideology.
*China resumes its neoliberal reforms in 1992 after Deng Xiaoping's Southern Tour
Same again, not referenced here or anywhere else in the article.
*Expansion of The Internet into the former USSR and Eastern Europe http://seclists.org/interesting-people/2009/Dec/30
Seems fine.
*A higher male to female sex ratio at birth in some Eastern countries due to sex selective abortion of girls http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21586617-son-preference-once-suppressed-reviving-alarmingly-gendercide-caucasus
Seems fine.
*The North Korean famine
This is described in the article, so this is fine.
*Islamist terrorist groups shift their focus to America and the West
This may be the case, but it's not referenced here or anywhere else in the article.
Additionally, Globalization was added as a category for no clear reason.
For now I've removed the parts that seem erroneous or, at the very least, not referenced and not explained.
Tophattingson (talk) 17:52, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I've also removed some dubious (and some wacky) claims from the infobox's "causes" and "aims" section. Likewise, the Soviet occupation of the Baltic states was not a "cause". In my opinion, we should keep this as short as possible and, ideally, cited. Perhaps a consensus on talk would be a good idea. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:25, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Errors in the Infobox's "Result" section 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: What happened on March 9, 1989? I doubt that the bankruptcy of Eastern Air Lines actually is what sparked the revolutionary wave that liberated Eastern Europe.
173.61.75.155 (talk) 21:55, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Start date? 

message: :The period is sometimes called the Autumn of Nations,[2][3][4][5][6] a play on the term "Spring of Nations" that is sometimes used to describe the Revolutions of 1848.
I propose moving this elsewhere. It's a pointless quip, pure novelty, and definitely not worthy of being the second paragraph of the entire article let alone in the lede, nor does it need a half dozen citations. I'm assuming that it has some political agenda that I'm unaware of, but whilst I'm sure--to whoever added the half dozen citations and the like--it feels important to them, it is unimportant, incoherent, and detracts from the overall article's flow entirely. Agendabender (talk) 16:45, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autumn of nations isn't lede-worthy material. 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: Every alternative name for this event serves as a redirect to this page except for “Fall of Stalinism”. Why? (97.90.153.18 (talk) 08:08, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing redirect 

message: The start and end dates in the infobox are impossible to define precisely and should simply be left blank. The discussion above shows the difficulty of defining theses dates. There were events in Poland and other countries earlier than 1989. The current version apparently refers to the beginning as the Tiananmen demonstrations, which were not even a revolution. Other recent versions referenced earlier events, but there is no distinct beginning one can to point to, as the subject is not that precise. The end date is just as arbitrary. Moreover, any dates we assign will be unsourced, for we aren't likely to find a consensus of sources stating "The Revolutions of 1989 began on [date certain] and ended on [date certain]." Best to just keep that element of the infobox blank and stick with the less precise description in the intro. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 15:36, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: A little while ago, I reduced it to years only and not exact dates. Given the name of the article, events before 1989 might be considered preludes to the revolutions. Richard 09:27, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Start/end dates 

message: Hi ! Your edits were reverted cause they were unsourced.  I have already explained on your talk page. Please discuss before proceeding further.  Vikram Vincent  11:17, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please discuss changes 

message: Yanayev mostly rolled along with Gorbachev before rather suddenly turning on him to seize power for a couple days. Ceaușescu was the only hard-line Warsaw Pact leader for 12 days, after Husák's resignation on 10 December. Speaking of Husák, I think it would be more accurate to have him instead of Jakeš in the infobox. Also, the Warsaw Pact was no longer a thing when Yanayev launched his half-hearted coup. Transylvania1916 (talk) 10:39, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  I personally think Ceaușescu should be above Yanayev in the infobox 

message: Who was so fast to mark Crimea as part of Russia on the map depicting border changes after fall of communism? Any putinist agents?
37.248.152.196 (talk) 10:25, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map of ignorance 

message: This section is not fully recorded, because this is a revolution not only taking place in Europe but also more comprehensive. Friendly member (talk) 09:26, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Short description 

message: Remove ambiguous terms like "Justice" from the goals section, as well as labour rights as there is no doubt that the fall of communism reduced labour rights, you could even make the argument that the elimination of many labour rights was intentional considering the actions of Ronald Reagan in this time period. With the inclusion of these supposed "goals" the page appears to be more of a propaganda piece than an objective and empirical article. 2601:18D:8A01:380:F463:2388:90E0:F8A8 (talk) 01:38, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:04, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

text: I just realized this IP address is a locked puppet, and the part itself doesn't need tweaking because it's correct. Deu74 (talk) 06:21, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 3 November 2021 

message: I'm quite confused about what events are and aren't part of the Revolutions of 1989. Is it only events that took place in Marxist–Leninist states and if so why is there little to no coverage for events in Africa, or does include events in non-Marxist socialist states (like Burma and Iraq) and right-wing authoritarian states (like Bangladesh, Chile, South Africa and South Korea) and have little to no coverage about those? Charles Essie (talk) 16:46, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Scope