Talk:Hawaiian religion

message: Well, time to get started!
I've been looking over the information available, and I was wondering if it's possible to either merge this article to Hawaiian mythology or merge that article here.  As it stands, the mythology page is simply a list of the major Hawaiian gods and goddesses.  I suppose a key point is whether it is possible to separate the mythology from the religion (ala Christian mythology vs. Christianity and Ancient Greek religion vs. Greek mythology)--my personal opinion is that discussions of the major stories belong in the mythology article while a brief overview of the Hawaiian pantheon and description of the historical evolution of the religion would be better suited here.  Thoughts? --jonny-mt 02:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not an expert on this, but to me Hawaiian mythology includes the epic stories of warriors and kings, whereas religion would cover the gods and goddesses. So Pele, Lono, et al should be here, but Ka'ala and the night marchers etc. would be in mythology. How does that sound? Makana Chai (talk) 06:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's about what I was thinking.  Since you seem to have a clearer grasp on where the line is, can I leave the merge to you (along with the copying of the workpage)? --jonny-mt 07:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see a need for a merge as they are two distinct topics.  Hawaiian religion covers the institutional tenets, traditions and practices that are based on the mythology, which in turn concerns itself with the stories of the Hawaiian gods.  While there is certainly overlap, as with any two related topics, the treatment of both is entirely different.  Hawaiian mythology is in need of expansion.  Viriditas (talk) 11:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're definitely right about that article needing expansion, and there's probably nothing worth merging anyway, but I wanted to define our scope before we get going.  For example, it seems that discussions of the main gods and goddesses would be better conducted here in the discussion of religion than in the discussion of mythology, which would deal with the folk legends and stories as Makana indicated above. --jonny-mt 15:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically, myth and religion are treated in terms of anthropology; religion is considered the broad view of the beliefs, rituals, practices and institutions, while mythology is the narrow view of the stories used to support the religious beliefs.  See religion and mythology.  So, we wouldn't go into too much story detail here, leaving most of it to Hawaiian mythology. Viriditas (talk) 22:16, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible merge with [[Hawaiian mythology]]? 

message: I've been bold and expanded the temp page to include what is probably a terrible overview of Hawaiian religion.  I'll polish it up to something useable in the next week or so, but as part of the expansion I decided to go ahead and merge the history of the temp page with the history of the main article in order to protect the GFDL.  I've marked it as , so have at it! --jonny-mt 16:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Remind me never to get on your bad side. :) That was a good idea to add the section "Hawaiian religion in modern times". It should be interesting to see what turns up, particularly in terms of sovereignty issues which appear to be inseparable from religious claims. Viriditas (talk) 00:12, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expansion and move of the temp page 

message: Thank you so much johnny-mt for putting this together. It's a really good start. 
I fixed the two "who?" and I took out after Lono, "whom the native Hawaiians apparently mistook Captain Cook for[4]" - this article is about Hawaiian religion and this comment would go in Hawaiian history. PS I think the real story is more complicated. I believe the kahuna knew he was not a god, but wanted everyone else to think he was.
Yes, Hawaiian religion today will be interesting - a kumu just sent me a long letter about how Christianity is the true Hawaiian religion. Makana Chai (talk) 10:16, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Kahoolawe comes to mind.  Particularly the lawsuit that Protect Kahoolawe Ohana filed to gain control of the island, partly on the basis of a religious claim.  While the suit failed, they eventually won over the public.  Bombing stopped in 1990, and the island was handed over to the state in 1994.  These and other Hawaiian sovereignty claims are covered in American Cultural Pluralism and Law: Third Edition (2006), and many involve an appeal to Native Hawaiian religious belief and freedom to practice their religion.  It should also be mentioned that the Hawaiians are protected by the American Indian Religious Freedom Act. Viriditas (talk) 18:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Just wanted to say nice call on the Kahoolawe content :) --jonny-mt 14:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Great job 

message: I have never seen a reference to Kāne as Kāne Milohai. Can you point me to a reference? Mahalo. Makana Chai (talk) 05:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, I simply took that name from the Wikipedia article.  Feel free to correct it if you'd like--for the time being, I'm just kind of focusing on getting a bunch of content up and hitting on some ideas for further article development.  Once all this is done, I'll be only too happy to join you in going back and vetting the hell out of it! --jonny-mt 07:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Hawaiian Dictionary gives Kānemilohai as 1) the Hawaiian name for the French Frigate Shoals, and 2) the "name of Pele's brother left as an outguard on northwestern shoal as they travelled from Tahiti to Hawaii". () This directly contradicts the first sentence in Kāne Milohai, which states that he was Pele's father. I have also never heard Kāne (the main god) referenced as Kāne Milohai; always as Kāne. —Kal (talk) 21:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question re Kāne Milohai 

message: The role of Queen Ka'ahumanu in the 'Ai Noa should be mentioned in the kapu section and her influence in "Hawaiian religion in modern times" should be described in relation to her promotion of Protestant Christianity and banning of the Roman Catholic Church. Viriditas (talk) 09:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree! Will do. Eventually. Makana Chai (talk) 09:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Queen Ka'ahumanu 

message: Please take a look at the further reading and resources section for two links which could be used as a starting point for additional information on Hawaiian religious sculpture. Viriditas (talk) 14:01, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: These look great. Hope you can do this one. Mahalo. Makana Chai (talk) 09:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religious sculpture 

message: Per WP:MOS, headings should generally not repeat the article title.  "Contemporary era", "Modern era", or some variation on that title should suffice. Viriditas (talk) 15:35, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hawaiian religion in modern times 

message: I updated the citation to reflect the most recent publication, however the page number is probably off as a result.  I doubt we even need the page number due to the general, uncontroversial nature of the statement, but I will make an effort to find the newer edition and check the page number. Viriditas (talk) 04:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Page number is right, thanks. Makana Chai (talk) 19:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:   Kepelino's Traditions of Hawaii 

message: Shifting image to the right--since his arms open to the left, the eye tends to follow that way (see MOS:IMAGES)
:No big whoop, but I found it ironic, since the only reason I made the change was based on "Multiple images in the same article can be staggered right-and-left" from MOS:IMAGES.  I was going to tease Jonny by telling him that the MOS on shifting images only pertains to images of faces, while the Navy commanders are looking right in the photo, but I thought better of it.  After all, you never know what could happen if Jonny's blocking finger accidentally slipped while he was typing. :-) Viriditas (talk) 10:44, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image placement 

message: Can we take this out:
Another breakdown[9] consists of three major groups:
    * the four gods, or akua: Kū, Kāne, Lono, Kanaloa
    * many lesser gods, or kupua, each associated with certain professions
    * family gods, ʻaumakua, associated with particular families
It seems to me this is just a general way of saying what is above it in the article. Makana Chai (talk) 18:16, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of gods 

message: I had no idea that American spelling is one "p." British is two, so I changed all to the one. Makana Chai (talk) 18:24, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worshiping or Worshipping 

message: Mokuʻula article is good. Not sure that I agree to add Mokuʻula to Hawaiian religion. We would go crazy adding every wahi pana to it. But it would be good to link to it. Makana Chai (talk) 01:30, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If Mokuula is what its proponents claim it is—an axis mundi for the Hawaiian culture—then it may be one of the most important religious sites in the archipelago. Viriditas (talk) 02:21, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mokuʻula 

message: Is it accurate to say the Hawaiian religion encompasses the beliefs and practices of "Native Hawaiians?" Native Hawaiians practice different religions; not just these pre-contact beliefs. Today, some native Native Hawaiians retain these beliefs, a great many are Christian, and some are irreligious. A better description is necessary. I'm not sure what it would be.—Fluous (talk) 02:35, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It says "the indigenous religious beliefs and practices of the Native Hawaiians." Editor2020, Talk 00:50, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semantic issue 

message: Substituted at 17:17, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: I think there needs to be more information on the Hawaiian deities. They are obviously a huge part of the culture and so little is said about them. I am working on something now to expand upon this topic.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by KenHage91 (talk • contribs) 18:52, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on the Deities 

message: Hello, I added more details about the Four main Hawaiian deities. I thought that since they are a big part of Hawaiian religion, a little more detail needed to be added to the page about them.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by KenHage91 (talk • contribs) 14:38, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Four Main Deities  

message: I have edited the paragraph on Huna to put it in more neutral terms.
Mikedelsol (talk) 12:44, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Huna neutrality violation 

message: The article cites Pukui for the claim that 'the early Hawaiian gods were benign', but then it goes on to quote Kamakau saying that "There are many kinds of spirits that help for good and many that aid in evil (emphasis mine)." (Also, come on, there was a God of war. Does this guy look benign? And there was human sacrifice, too.) 62.73.69.121 (talk) 11:17, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction regarding the 'benignity' of gods