Talk:Legalism (Chinese philosophy)/Archive 3

message: The problems with dividing Chinese thought into schools is gone into by Nylan 2003 and Pines 2009. There's probably something there worth mentioning.
 I think it was Creel that mentioned a Chapter of the Zhuangzhi as endorsing Wu Wei in government, but dismissing Shen Buhai's methods of personnel control, but I'll have to spot this again as I go through the book. I can throw it in my new section on the Fajia's relations with Daoism.
 I have very little idea where Huang Kejian's From Destiny to Dao to Dao comes from apart from the original Chinese work's publishing by China Renmin University Press.  Without object, and referencing him by name, unless I find something better I currently use him for summary in a sub-article section.  Some of it's work on the subject is very excellent, if limited, and involves a commentary on other works.
One of it's noteable concepts is the tendency of the school to emphasize Fa and de-emphasize virtue would mean in part a limited potential for law beyond the Han dynasty penal in the first place, seeing as a more developed law involves a broader range of concepts like justice. Thus, it would tends towards Shu.FourLights (talk) 07:02, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes

message: Creel suggests that Xing in Xing-Ming did not mean punishment, even though it was associated with it. I'd be inclined to take his scholarship on the matter, but I will have to review the sources.FourLights (talk) 06:43, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Unaddressed materials

message: These keep being translated incorrectly in this article.  In the present version, someone says that they "literally" mean "law, method, and legitimacy," respectively.  All three of those are wrong.  Fa literally means "method" or "standard"; shu literally means "technique" or "procedure"; and shi literally means "situational advantage," i.e. the advantage that one enjoys as a result of one's position, whether on a battlefield or in society.  All three have very different "literal" meanings from their common usage in Modern Mandarin.  Indicating definitions of such terms without any references, especially when they're as inaccurate as this, is highly misleading to readers who don't know better.--98.114.178.63 (talk) 04:20, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion regarding Fa 法, shu 術, and shi 勢 

message: The frequent western mistranslation of Fa as Law instead of Method lead to the martial art Kenpo or "fist method" being mistranslated to the silly "law of the fist", as stated by that page, the word Kenpo using the Chinese character Fa though using a different (Japanese) sound for it.FourLights (talk) 08:49, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia

message: === Documents of interest ===
http://www.indiana.edu/~p374/Resources.html
books
The Book of Lord Shang: Apologetics of State Power in Early China
Cities of Aristocrats and Bureaucrats
Heritage of China: Contemporary Perspectives on Chinese Civilization
Autocratic Tradition and Chinese Politics: Zhengyuan Fu
Jia Yi Xin Shu
Strategic Culture and Grand Strategy in Chinese History
A History of Chinese Political Thought, Volume One
On shi 勢, see Roger Ames, The Art of Rulership,
Sources of Chinese tradition
A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy
The Confucian-Legalist State
Philosophical_essays_of_Wang_C
Leadership and Management in China
The world of thought in ancient China
Chinese Law: Context and Transformation: Revised and Expanded Edition
T'ung-tsu Chu, Local Government in China under the Ch'ing
Papers
Hanfei and Truth: Between Pragmatism and Coherentism?
https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1810/255618/201503-article1.pdf?sequence=1
LEGALISM: CHINESE-STYLE CONSTITUTIONALISM?
Search for modern nationalism
Neo-Conucianism and Neo-Laglism in T'ang intelectual life, the confucian persuasion
http://58.68.130.89:8080/DissertationDetail/388696 
On Yin Wenzi and his Legal Philosophy Pattern of Taoism
Cultural Roots of Sustainable Management 
Rational Choice Analysis
The Legitimation of Chinese Lawmaking (II): Chinese Legalism
The Evolution of Legalists’ theories of the Western Han Dynasty
Law and Morality in Ancient China: The Silk Manuscripts of Huang-Lao by R. P. Peerenboom
Law in imperial China. Exemplified by 190 Ch'ing Dynasty Cases. With Historical, Social, and Juridical Commentaries, Harvard Studies in East Asian Law, 1 by Derk Bodde, Clarence Morris and  Hsing-an hui-lan
Landers, James R.: "Han Fei's Legalism and Its Impact on the History of China"; p. 101-112
China's Imperial Past
The Legalists and the Fall of Ch'in
The Legalist Philosophers - Chinese Thought
The Legalists and the Laws of Ch'in - Leyden Studies in Sinology
A Tentative Discussion of Pre-Ch'in Legalists
Taoist Silk Manuscripts and Early Legalist Thought - Sages and Filial Sons
The Ch'in Bamboo strip book of divination
The Legalist School and Shi-Huang Ti
Legalist School and Legal Positivism
A Comparison of the legltimacy of power between confucianist and legalist philosophies
the legalist school was the product of great social change
the crystalization of pre-chin legalist thought
the struggle for and against restoration in the course of the founding of the Ch'in dynasty - selection from people's republic of china magazines
The Legalist Concept of Hsing-Ming
the fa-chia and the shang-shu
the reformers of 1898 and pre-chin legalist thought
which books did the first emperor
ancient chinese cosmology and fa-chia theory - exploration in early chinese cosmology
the early legalist school of chinese political thought - open court
 the theory of law in the ching-fa
war, punishment and the law of nature in early chinese concepts of the state
Ch'in Shi Huang's bookburning
Chinese Legal Philosophy
The Legalists - Free China Review
On 'Legalism' as an Heuristic device
The book of lord shang. Probstain's Oriental Studies vol.xvii
Shang Yang's reforms and state control in china
In criticism of Shang Yang
The theory and practice of a totalitarian state - individual and state
Some reflections on Shang Yang and his political philosophy.
Shang Yang - Sinica 3
The Book of Lord Shang and the School of Law
Shen pu-hai: a misunderstood and wrongly neglected thinker
shen tzu - early chinese texts
on the transmission of the shen tzu
Shen Tao and Fa-Chia
Shen Dao - Tietze klauss
trauzettel rolf
Han Fei and the Han Feizi
The dialect of chih and tao in the han fei tzu
the political thought of han fei
han fei zi: the man and the work
a study of han fei's thought
han fei's principle of government by law
a concordance to han-fei tzu - chinese materials center, research aids no.13 
 
taoist metaphyiscs in the chieh lao
learned celebrities: a criticism of the confucians
five vermin: a pathological analysis of politics
a reading of han fei's 'wu tu'
trauzettel rolf - han feizi
the philosophical foundations of han-fei's political theory
 
han fei's theory of the 'rule of law'
han fei's critikue and reconstruction
constrat of the concept of li
han fei tzu: management pioneer
the legalism of the han fei tzu
han fei tzu and nicollo machiavelli 
Tsing Hua Journal of Chinese philosophy
http://www.iun.edu/~hisdcl/h425/legalists2.htm
http://www.philosophy.hku.hk/ch/Substance-Function.htm
Han Feizi’s Legalism versus Kautilya’s Arthashastra
A Comparison of the Legitimacy of Power Between Confucianist and Legalist Philosophies
Xunzi and Han Fei on Human Nature
Rhetorical Authority in Athenian Democracy and the Chinese Legalism of Han Fei
Jurisculture china FourLights (talk) 00:36, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Basically extra workspace

message: http://www.indiana.edu/~p374/Resources.html
books
The Book of Lord Shang: Apologetics of State Power in Early China
Cities of Aristocrats and Bureaucrats
Heritage of China: Contemporary Perspectives on Chinese Civilization
Autocratic Tradition and Chinese Politics: Zhengyuan Fu
Jia Yi Xin Shu
Strategic Culture and Grand Strategy in Chinese History
A History of Chinese Political Thought, Volume One
On shi 勢, see Roger Ames, The Art of Rulership,
Sources of Chinese tradition
A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy
The Confucian-Legalist State
Philosophical_essays_of_Wang_C
Leadership and Management in China
The world of thought in ancient China
Chinese Law: Context and Transformation: Revised and Expanded Edition
T'ung-tsu Chu, Local Government in China under the Ch'ing
Papers
Hanfei and Truth: Between Pragmatism and Coherentism?
https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1810/255618/201503-article1.pdf?sequence=1
LEGALISM: CHINESE-STYLE CONSTITUTIONALISM?
Search for modern nationalism
Neo-Conucianism and Neo-Laglism in T'ang intelectual life, the confucian persuasion
http://58.68.130.89:8080/DissertationDetail/388696 
On Yin Wenzi and his Legal Philosophy Pattern of Taoism
Cultural Roots of Sustainable Management 
Rational Choice Analysis
The Legitimation of Chinese Lawmaking (II): Chinese Legalism
The Evolution of Legalists’ theories of the Western Han Dynasty
Law and Morality in Ancient China: The Silk Manuscripts of Huang-Lao by R. P. Peerenboom
Law in imperial China. Exemplified by 190 Ch'ing Dynasty Cases. With Historical, Social, and Juridical Commentaries, Harvard Studies in East Asian Law, 1 by Derk Bodde, Clarence Morris and  Hsing-an hui-lan
Landers, James R.: "Han Fei's Legalism and Its Impact on the History of China"; p. 101-112
China's Imperial Past
The Legalists and the Fall of Ch'in
The Legalist Philosophers - Chinese Thought
The Legalists and the Laws of Ch'in - Leyden Studies in Sinology
A Tentative Discussion of Pre-Ch'in Legalists
Taoist Silk Manuscripts and Early Legalist Thought - Sages and Filial Sons
The Ch'in Bamboo strip book of divination
The Legalist School and Shi-Huang Ti
Legalist School and Legal Positivism
A Comparison of the legltimacy of power between confucianist and legalist philosophies
the legalist school was the product of great social change
the crystalization of pre-chin legalist thought
the struggle for and against restoration in the course of the founding of the Ch'in dynasty - selection from people's republic of china magazines
The Legalist Concept of Hsing-Ming
the fa-chia and the shang-shu
the reformers of 1898 and pre-chin legalist thought
which books did the first emperor
ancient chinese cosmology and fa-chia theory - exploration in early chinese cosmology
the early legalist school of chinese political thought - open court
 the theory of law in the ching-fa
war, punishment and the law of nature in early chinese concepts of the state
Ch'in Shi Huang's bookburning
Chinese Legal Philosophy
The Legalists - Free China Review
On 'Legalism' as an Heuristic device
The book of lord shang. Probstain's Oriental Studies vol.xvii
Shang Yang's reforms and state control in china
In criticism of Shang Yang
The theory and practice of a totalitarian state - individual and state
Some reflections on Shang Yang and his political philosophy.
Shang Yang - Sinica 3
The Book of Lord Shang and the School of Law
Shen pu-hai: a misunderstood and wrongly neglected thinker
shen tzu - early chinese texts
on the transmission of the shen tzu
Shen Tao and Fa-Chia
Shen Dao - Tietze klauss
trauzettel rolf
Han Fei and the Han Feizi
The dialect of chih and tao in the han fei tzu
the political thought of han fei
han fei zi: the man and the work
a study of han fei's thought
han fei's principle of government by law
a concordance to han-fei tzu - chinese materials center, research aids no.13 
 
taoist metaphyiscs in the chieh lao
learned celebrities: a criticism of the confucians
five vermin: a pathological analysis of politics
a reading of han fei's 'wu tu'
trauzettel rolf - han feizi
the philosophical foundations of han-fei's political theory
 
han fei's theory of the 'rule of law'
han fei's critikue and reconstruction
constrat of the concept of li
han fei tzu: management pioneer
the legalism of the han fei tzu
han fei tzu and nicollo machiavelli 
Tsing Hua Journal of Chinese philosophy
http://www.iun.edu/~hisdcl/h425/legalists2.htm
http://www.philosophy.hku.hk/ch/Substance-Function.htm
Han Feizi’s Legalism versus Kautilya’s Arthashastra
A Comparison of the Legitimacy of Power Between Confucianist and Legalist Philosophies
Xunzi and Han Fei on Human Nature
Rhetorical Authority in Athenian Democracy and the Chinese Legalism of Han Fei
Jurisculture china FourLights (talk) 00:36, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Documents of interest 

message: How do legalism, fascism, and communism compare with one another? How are they alike? How are they different? 68.37.254.48 (talk) 16:35, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Legalism vs. fascism vs. communism 

message: The summary paragraph at the beginning has way too many citations to read comfortably (per WP:OVERSITE). It'll probably take a while to fix this; just thought I'd point this out. Llightex (talk) 13:01, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too many citations 

message: The note about being "incorrectly translated" with its accompanying ref is disjointed and distracting and should be brought up later in the article. The phrase "usually translated..." gives the readers a hint that there may be something more about the translation. The intro shouldn't read like a debate. Dig Deeper (talk) 06:51, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  dig deeper 

message: I'm going to go through the article and make some changes in grammar and flow. I know nothing about this particular topic except what is here in the text, so if I change the meaning, don't hesitate to change parts of it back. I hope this proof reading is helpful. Dig Deeper (talk) 21:33, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad my comments and edits were helpful. It's very important not to stray too far from the main topic of the article. Too much information (also called data hoarding can bring confusion. Footnotes are a good place to put extra detail you don't want to delete, that's a good idea.  You can also move the detail to another page (for example the page on Han Fei or Han Feizi) or perhaps save it for a future page creation.Dig Deeper (talk) 15:55, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Making general grammar and flow edits 

message: Reflecting on legalism, with its amoral and "get the job done" philosophy, I couldn't help but wonder if corruption and bribery etc were a result of this. If so perhaps it should be mentioned.Dig Deeper (talk) 04:56, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Any link between legalism and corruption? Comment 

message: Having the object precede the subject is OK occasionally, but doing it constantly is distracting and confusing to the reader. For example...
Grouping thinkers crucial to laying the "intellectual and ideological foundations of the traditional Chinese bureaucratic empire",[4] it emphasizes political reform through fixed and transparent rules and a realistic consolidation of the wealth and power of the state, with the goal of achieving increased order and stability. Largely ignoring morality or questions on how a society ideally should function, it examines the present state of the government.[5]
That there is any evidence at all in the ancient world for a field of management is notable.[6] Including possibly the first, if not highly centralized bureaucratic state, and earliest (by the second century BC) example of an administrative meritocracy based on civil service examinations,[7] it may well be said to have originated in ancient China.
better...
Legalism groups together society's thinkers, believed to be crucial for laying the "intellectual and ideological foundations of the traditional Chinese bureaucratic empire". It  emphasizes political reform through fixed and transparent rules and a realistic consolidation of the wealth and power of the state, with the goal of achieving increased order and stability. Legalism also examines the present state of the government, while largely ignoring morality or questions on how a society ideally should function.
A copy edit request (tag) may be wise after your editing is complete.Dig Deeper (talk) 02:45, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Object preceding subject 

message: Having re-read this article several times, I must say that it suffers from poor organization. Unlike other articles on philosophies which distinguish sections for history and the principles and doctrines, its explanations and analyzes on the latter is scattered all over the place. The section "Administrative realpolitik" is grouped under "Historical background", but honestly seems to deal more with the fundamentals of Legalism rather than the historical development of it. Then this is followed by sections on the main contributors to Legalism, such as Guan Zhong, Mozi, Shen Dao, and Han Fei, but they are all top-tier sections which put them on the same level as "Historical background" when arguably, they can be grouped together under one section identifying the different contributors or main branches. Exacerbating this is the fact that there is a section on "Branches" which deal with "Shang Yang" and "Shen Buhai", two other major Legalists and yet Han Fei is excluded from this section and given his own top-tier section. As a matter of fact, I think that the section on Guan Zhong and Mozi might better fit under "Historical background", a section on the development or precursors to Legalism. Finally, the last sections from "Fall" to "Modern" would appropriately be grouped under a section titled "History" which can be distinguished "from Historical Background" in dealing with the history after it came into fruition if one so wishes.
All in all, I found this article to be a nightmare to navigate in spite of providing a lot of helpful information. Sol Pacificus (talk) 05:08, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing organization 

message: The article is in better shape than when  posted above, but I think it still needs some substantial cleanup. Some specific issues:
* The use of "Fa-Jia" is odd—based on the references, the hyphen seems to have been taken via sources using Wade–Giles, which uses hyphens to delimit Chinese syllables, but in pinyin it should be either "Fajia" (fajia) or "Fa Jia" (fa jia). Generally the transcription does not appear to be capitalised in modern sources. I am also not sure in the context of Wikipedia that the predilection for "Fajia" over "Legalism" is helpful for English readers: the name "Legalism" and its potential issues are discussed in the article. Once those caveats are given, there's no reason to insist on an unfamiliar Chinese term and I think it's problematic to one-sidedly promote Goldin's statements on the issue.
* There's a general mixing-up of pinyin and Wade–Giles: e.g. "Shih" should be "shi" in pinyin. Pinyin should be used consistently per WP:CHINESE.
* There are syntax (and occasionally grammatical) issues which result in quite a few confusing or ambiguous sentences. For example, "" What is usually disregarded by the Fajia: Shen Dao, his theory of moral capability, or moral capability itself? Logically I assume the third, but on reading the sentence I initially interpreted it as the first.
* Difficult to be specific on this point but the style needs improvement in many places.
* Citations are in a non-standard style and difficult to follow up: e.g. what is "" supposed to be and how can I verify it?
* Some of Sol's concerns about the structure of the article are still valid. I am not sure that the large section on antecedents contributes proportionally to the article, and it makes sense for it to be considered "historical background".
Beyond the issues I maintenance-tagged:
* Some important statements in the article are unsourced or fail verification. I tagged one instance in the lede (edit: fixed this one with a source); I also tagged a couple of others I found e.g. the claim that Han Fei was "" was not given in the citation. I haven't gone through the references systematically so I'm not sure if this applies to much of the article, but given that out of the 6 or so I checked half failed verification it's a fairly serious potential problem area.
* Various of the images are used without citation and imply connections to legalism which need to be justified. For example, the images seem to be used to claim that Deng Xiaoping and the Communist Party are Legalist, which needs to be supported. 
On the plus side, apart from the unsourced statements these could generally be fixed by a thorough copy-edit of the article. I'll maybe try to have a stab at this at some point myself but it's a big article so I can't promise anything—hence writing this up. —Nizolan (talk · c.) 18:27, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: After finding another statement—in the lede—that failed verification upon comparison with the cited source (namely "", which I couldn't find a better source for either) I have tagged the article for potential original research. —Nizolan (talk · c.) 19:03, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issues as of July 2019 

message: The article concludes presently, 11 April 2020, with seeming acceptance that "Legalism", fajia, is amoral: 
Finally, as late as late as 2011, the Oxford Handbook of World Philosophy paints the Legalists as Realists, stating that "What linked these men is that all were theorists or practitioner's of a realistic amoral brand of statecraft aimed at consolidating and strengthening the power and wealth of the state and it's autocratic ruler. Their thought was realistic in being premised on what they took to be brute facts about how people actually behave... It was amoral in that they were utterly unconcerned with whether the institutions and methods they advocated were morally justified."[376] (end of excerpt)
To summarize in terms of law and morality would require a definition of each.  If law is fa, meaning a method or standard, this would correspond to the European idea of rule, which is a statement of procedure.  In a word, a yardstick.  That is, a symbol used to verify something.  Morality, then, would have to be something that is not a yardstick.  Let me propose that morality is a "when all is said and done" consideration, a sort of "well, I've done all I could: how do you like it so far?"  
The point would be that language reaches only so far.  If we stop to program everything we do, we'd never even draw a breath: "Diaphragm, stand by to contract; check mouth and nose for obstructions; ascertain if ambient air is safe; consult all other relevant considerations . . ."
I like the remark by an economics professor who'd been to law school: a STOP sign is an example of a good law: you know what to do, it's cheap, it's fair, etc.  And yet a STOP sign in the wrong place can do great harm.  Who decides where the STOP sign goes?
In the ancient Chinese context, when there was not one China, or indeed today, after China has been under concerted European attack for centuries, a strong nation was and is the highest morality, one might say: if there were signs on the Shanghai waterfront saying "No dogs or Chinese" enforced by US Marines (?), could anything wonderful happen anywhere in China?
I offer a truism: martial law is indicated in national emergency.  Is this an emergency?  You pays your money, you takes your chances.  If you try to enforce martial law when the situation, the shi, does not require it, you will pay the price eventually.
So I leave law and morality as I distinguish them under that third consideration--eventually.Chrisrushlau (talk) 20:42, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  It would help to summarize the subject here: perhaps "law and morality in ancient Chinese philosophy". 

message: I have added the excessive citations tag, since the lead of the article (and not only) seems to have WP:CITEKILL. I believe that some of them (half, if not more) should be removed, however I don't want to remove them myself because it might cause issues or because some editors might disagree. What do you think? Karl Krafft (talk) 21:35, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Alternatively, the citations can be merged. Karl Krafft (talk) 23:04, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

text: I understand. I believe that they shouldn't be deleted as well, since the bibliography in this article is great. I'd prefer if they were merged instead. Karl Krafft (talk) 19:05, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

text: Me neither, however the article looks a bit messy now which is why I tagged it and opened this discussion. Karl Krafft (talk) 17:38, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a terrific article but the lead does not follow the advice in :WP:MOSLEAD, and readers would much appreciate using short references, as described in WP:CITESHORT or the main article Help: Shortened Footnotes. I will make a few edits, but don't want to interfere. ch (talk) 22:09, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. Then I will go ahead and slightly rearrange the material in the lead to consolidate and clarify without losing the points on Han Fei and Sima Tan that are there.ch (talk) 00:13, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too many citations in the lead 

message: Given input, lead was reorganized into something flashier on this date with Han Fei as it's basis. More academic style content was relegated to the second paragraph, with realist content moved to the realist section, which would have to be rewritten examining sources. I then recombined the academic second paragraph with this for more description, and separated Han Fei into its own paragraph again.FourLights (talk) 06:20, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Lead 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: This article includes a number of unusual images that don't really belong here. Han Xiangzi is a character from the Tang dynasty and has nothing to do with Legalism. A photo of an abacus is included despite the article not mentioning the abacus. A picture of a painting that shows a spinning wheel is used to illustrate Han Fei talking about a chariot wheel, which aren't the same things. A Korean painting of a mythical white tiger very tendentiously linked to Qin Shi Huang. Juyong Pass is not mentioned in the article, but there is a photo here - it would be more appropriate for a history article. The grave goods from the Han are slightly less random, but still are not really illustrating anything. In my opinion, all except the grave goods should be removed. I'm willing to listen to other opinions before I do so, however, so let me know if you disagree. Retinalsummer (talk) 21:51, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I illustrated the article to try to entertain unintelligent people, but I won't object if you do the work of removing what you think it best to remove. For that matter, if you have other ideas to illustrate it, do that.FourLights (talk) 23:49, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

text: With Han Xiangzi I suppose the point would be that it feels like you have a sharing of concepts here.FourLights (talk) 23:54, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure what you mean by "entertain unintelligent people", but I'll have a think about appropriate replacements before removing anything. But regardless, I don't think picture captions are the place for quotes in an article. By the way, when you reply to comments on talk pages, you should put a colon (:) at the beginning of your reply so it indents and is easier to follow (I've put them in for you, hope you don't mind). See WP:TALKREPLY for more info. Retinalsummer (talk) 20:10, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: if you read psychology articles people are more likely to read if there are pictures.  I won't object, that's just why I did it. FourLights (talk) 18:22, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok fine, but the manual of style says "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative." See MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE. Also, as I said please sign your comments with the right number of ":". Retinalsummer (talk) 20:07, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unusual images 

message: This article has recent additions by GoutComplex which I would have to review.  A good portion of it looks like a suitable addition to me. However, I do not believe that the question of the Fajia's orientation towards spirituality belongs in the leading paragraphs, and mostly cities only one person. I have similarly discussed the modern western perception by the west of the Fajia as "realists", but have moved the material in question to a new section in the introduction, which I titled "atheistic orientation". I believe that the topic deserves it's own coverage separately from my discussion of modern perception, but it will require a great deal more work to cover it in a more scholarly way.FourLights (talk) 21:45, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  recent additions