Talk:Don Giovanni

message: Recent edits have changed the description of Don Giovanni's treatment of Donna Anna in the first scene from "seduced" to "", back to "" (with an unkind edit summary) and then to "" again. There's plenty of literature about the character of Donna Anna: whether she was indeed raped or whether she was a willing participant in the clandestine liaison. Neither text nor music of the opera give an unambiguous explanation. On balance, it seems to me that te characterisation of "rape" has a whiff of a modern reading about it and seems somewhat anachronistic. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so. Anna is not especially ambiguous about what she believes happened, which would seem to indicate, not necessarily that "rape" is the correct word to use in the summary, but that "seduce" is not sufficiently nuanced. What do you think of writing "rape or seduce" and including a footnote about different interpretations? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:55, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think "rape or seduce" is good prose. We don't know what went on in Donna Anna's chambers. She cries: "Al traditore!" What does that ? DG betrayed her trust? What trust? Leporello says: "Sforzar la figlia ed ammazzar il padre!" (force himself on the daughter and kill the father) – sounds like rape; but its' usually translated as "seduce the daughter and then dispatch the father" (possibly for reasons of metre?). When Ottavio arives, DA's only concern is to revenge her father's death. It's all very muddled. I'm not sure how to explain all that and the various comments in the literature on this angle in a footnote. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking more in "Or sai," but thanks for reminding me about Leporello. (The inaccurate metrical translation is irrelevant.) And yeah, we don't know what went on, and productions/interpretations vary, which is why saying in our summary that one thing or another is correct is a bad idea... –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:54, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: What Leporello tells us is that Giovanni is "passing time" or dallying inside. Questions of what actually took place offstage or the motivations of witnesses belong properly to the reception history. Has L witnessed a seduction/been briefed by/lied to by DG? Does he later see a rape in the wings/leap to conclusions based on screaming, or is he pretending to be outraged in the context of negotiating for his unpaid wages? Is DA reassuring a fiance (whom she seems in no hurry to marry) after being found in an ambiguous situation, or is she enlisting him in revenge for being outraged/spurned/indirectly implicated in her father's death? Neither "seduction" "rape" nor "attempted rape"  are necessary in the synopsis. Sparafucil (talk) 01:52, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not important at that line in the summary alone but it drives the rest of the plot. (And incidentally I see that at some point, someone removed "raped" again so I shall add it back.) –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:19, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

text:  This is not a rape. Donna Anna sings, "Do not expect me ever to let you escape, unless you kill me." Here is an analysis of this point: https://atlassociety.org/commentary/commentary-blog/3902-mozarts-don-giovanni-an-enlightenment-hero The author of this article writes: "I take this to mean that she is taken with him sexually and wants to cling to him. The speech is ambiguous and could be interpreted as, "I am holding on to you until the police arrive," but I think not. It is the word "ever" that is the tip-off. "You will not ever leave me" is the sort of thing that would be said by a clinging lover, not someone making a citizen's arrest." Sbelknap (talk) 14:20, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why don't you place it below, same topic, also old, but not that old. Everlasting, it seems. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:29, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Raped or seduced

message: I support User:Michael Bednareks reversion of the info box up top for precisely the reason which he stated: "partly undid revision 638979534 by Meister und Margarita (talk): article needs a navigation box for WAM's operas."
With only an info box and no navigation box, we lack a direct link to other operas by this composer.  That's why there have been changes on many other composers' articles (e.g. Verdi has an image of Verdi up top and a nav box down below).
Now, as I've expressed before (and have set up for many of the Bellini articles, for example), I am not opposed to info boxes per se, but we can't have one without the other.
Maybe we can prevail on someone to add to the Mozart nav box.....?? All the best for 2015, Viva-Verdi (talk) 23:07, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've created a horizontal navigation box Template:Mozart operas (horizontal). I also agree with Viva-Verdi that an infobox + the horizontal navbox as a footer would be OK (and possibly an improvement). Having said that, the image used in the infobox  was not a particularly good one for illustrating the opera to anyone unfamiliar with it. It's a very modern production, and so generic (a chap in a leather jacket sitting atop a pile of suitcases in a metal rack) that it could be anything. It would probably be better placed in the "Performance history" section, with something else used for the box. User:Meister und Margarita, please stop edit-warring to restore the infobox and discuss the way forward here on the talk page. Voceditenore (talk) 11:27, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The Mozart Opera Info box is simply ugly. There are now new pics on Commons. Maybe you like one of them.--Meister und Margarita (talk) 16:20, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I like the navbox and added it. (For some reason it comes with extra blank lines if not at the bottom.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:26, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

text:  ps: In infoboxes for Bach compositions (for example BWV 243a), we have J. S. Bach instead of the long name. In Mozart's case, W. A. makes even more sense, as we all know that he never called himself Wolfgang Amadeus. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:30, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

text:  I added the navbox to the linked items, - wondering if the general navbox Mozart should be kept. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:18, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: NAV box: Gerda, well we could combine the WAM with the Operas one, but I think you've got a nice balance here, allowing us to move forward to create info boxes for each article as we can.  The key is to find dramatic images which represent what the operas are all about, and certainly I agree with User talk:Voceditenore that the image of the Don (?) sitting on a pile books hardly represented the opera.  As I noted earlier today (Sun, my time), (see below) both the images I've posted say a lot more about the opera. Keep up the good work! Viva-Verdi (talk) 00:32, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think it would be good to combine the two navboxes, - Mozart and operas (or we would also have to combine symphonies, piano concertos, ... - this has been discussed on Classical music as unwanted), rather suggest to omit Mozart from the individual operas, because it never more than one click away. I understand that a navbox should be in articles which are linked, - but I may be wrong. I wasn't bold enough to remove Mozart. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:18, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

text: I really like the Slevogt.  Regarding navbox vs. infobox, both options lack something.  The picture of Mozart, alone, is rather generic for my taste given the significance of this work, but I like having the list of his operas readily available.  That said, the current version does not display premier and other information neatly presented in the opera infobox.  78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 14:45, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  The navbox IS at the bottom. I would like any of the two pics for a lead image, the black Mario perhaps a little better. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:49, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that there's now a navbox to all the operas at the bottom of the article, I'd go for the infobox. I don't mind either painting. The one with Mario is quite a classic depiction of the Don and more colourful, but the one by Max Slevogt is perhaps artistically of a higher quality (in my view). Voceditenore (talk) 18:39, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info box versus navigation box 

message: The scene numbering in the article is inconsistent with the score, both at NMA and at Naxos. Here's a rough-and-ready cut/pase from the libretto at Naxos:
Act 1
Scena I
Davanti la casa di Donn’Anna.
Scena II
Scena III
Entrano Donn’Anna e Don Ottavio, con servi che portano diversi lumi.
Scena IV
Una strada. Notte.
Scena V
Scena VI
Scena VII
Zerlina e Masetto entrano con un gruppo di contadini e
contadine, ballando e ridendo.
Scena VIII
Don Giovanni e Leporello appaiono e stanno da parte.
Scena IX
Scena X
I suddetti e Donna Elvira, che ferma con atti disperatissimi Don Giovanni.
Scena XI
Scena XII
Scena XIII
Scena XIV
Scena XV
Scena XVI
Giardino di Don Giovanni con due porte chiuse a chiave per di fuori
Scena XVII
Masetto entra nella nicchia; appare Don Giovanni con quattro servi nobilmente vestiti.
Scena XVIII
Scena XIX
Don Ottavio, Donna Anna e Donna Elvira entrano in maschera.
Scena XX
Sala illuminata e preparata per un gran festa di ballo (Presenti Don Giovanni, Leporello, Zerlina, Masetto, contadine e contadini.Don Giovanni fa seder le ragazze e Leporello i ragazzi in atto di aver finito un ballo.)
Act 2
Scena I
Strada
Scena II
Scena III
Scena IV
Entra Masetto armato d’archibuso e pistola, e dei contadini.
Scena V
(Ritorna in scena Don Giovanni, conducendo seco per la mano Masetto.)
 
Scena VI
Scena VII
Atrio terreno oscuro con tre porte in casa di Donna Anna.
Scena VIII
 
Scena IX
Scena X
Scena XI
Loco chiuso in forma di sepolcreto.  Diverse statue equestri fra cui la statua del Commendatore Recitativo Don Giovanni (entrando pel muretto, ridendo)
Scena XII
Camera tetra in casa di Donna Anna
Scena XIII
Sala in casa di Don Giovanni; una mensa preparata per mangiare; alcuni suonatori in disparte.
Scena XIV
Scena XV
Scena Ultima
Donna Elvira, Donna Anna, Don Ottavio, Zerlina e Masetto entrano con ministri di giustizia.
I don't think it would be helpful to break the synopsis down into these scenes, but it is equally not helpful if the article pulls scene numbers seemingly out of thin air. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:50, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Synopsis scenes

message: I found that Gounod had written essentially what is quoted under "Cultural Influences" and that Kierkegaard in the book cited there had a very high regard for Don Giovanni, but I could not find that Kierkegaard was quoting Gounod, except according to a book which is an assemblage of past WP articles. Marlindale (talk) 03:01, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gounod and Kierkegaard 

message: In an edit of the article just made, should "sevens" be "sevenths"? Marlindale (talk) 18:15, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and thanks for noticing.  I fixed it.  --  Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:03, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  diminished seven[th]s? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: it seems to me that Don Giovanni would have preferred seduction. After he is unmasked, things get unpleasant and he kills the Commendatore in a duel. Some sources call the Don Juan character a "libertine". Marlindale (talk) 00:09, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been discussed here before; see #Raped or seduced. What changes do you suggest? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:19, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I had overlooked that, thanks for pointing it out. The choice comes up more than once. In the Synopsis first paragraph, it now says "attempting to seduce" whereas Act 1, Scene 5 of the Synopsis says "attempting to rape or seduce..." Apparently there have been switches back and forth a few times. I suggest that when Don G. was pursuing a woman he would first try to seduce her, but if not successful, he tended to turn to force. For example, when  pursuing Zerlina, he first woos her with a seductive aria ("La ci darem la mano") but when that doesn't work he "tries to assault" her.   In Act 1 Scene 5, maybe "attempting to have sex with"?  Marlindale (talk) 01:34, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trying to rape, or seduce? 

message: Just yesterday there was a section titled "Other performances", it included the date of the premiere of Don Giovanni in London, in Italy, etc. This is an important subject, it's a proof of the reception of Mozart outside Germany/Austria and the opposition it faced. Why was it taken away? Who deleted it and why? Can it be recovered?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.37.21.208 (talk) 23:55, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you must be mistaken, I don't see that this page has been edited since April. We do have an "Other early performances" section in the article on Figaro and mention of a London premiere of Così? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:42, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other performances 

message: Is "the cuts are rarely made" or is "the cut music is rarely performed" intended here. Op47 (talk) 17:26, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarify tag