Talk:Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–1924)

message: Some Western Ukrainian nationalist POWs were kept in the same camps and sometimes branded as "Bolsheviks". 
Xx236 14:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you be able to support this with any sources ? That would be most helpful. --Lysy (talk) 14:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, some more details would be helpful. Halibutt 18:07, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Thanks but neither of these links provides significant details on Ukrainian POWs. How many of them were detained ? In what conditions ? When were they released ? --Lysy (talk) 01:00, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Western Ukrainians 

message: "During a war between two countries experiencing great socioeconomic difficulties, and often unable to provide adquately for their own populations, the treatment of prisoners of war was far from adequate."
It's amazing how some historical facts get a mutch softer treatment than others. If this article was about Polish POWs is Russia it would probably go "The Soviet authorities deliberatelly exterminated Polish POWs by deniyng them some of the most basic living conditions".
To consider that Poland at that time was a democracy which had a free press is pure fiction, it is absolutelly laughable.
Several sources point out that the death of so many Russian and Soviet POWs was not just a "sad accident", yet in this article they are just censored. I guess that their deaths don't count .....
User:HelderM 13:50, 21 April 2006
:What sources? Care to cite any proof to back your assertions?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:13, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Double standards 

message: The article is about Bolshevik POWs, kept together with Western Ukrainian ones. It doesn't mention explicitly the fate of the Russian prisoners of WWI.
Xx236 08:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you provide sources for that? While it makes sense that there would be POWs from PUW, I find it interesting that they would not be transferred to Petliura in 1920. Still, they would probably bear the same hardships as the Bolshevicks (or Poles on the other side), especially the SFlu (well, the 1919 part of it).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, if you could now remember the bibliographical data of this article...?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Karpus indeed mentions some Ukrainian soldiers, but most of them were indeed transferred either to Wrangel (early on) or to Petlura (later). Additional group of Ukrainian soldiers came during the 1920 battles, but these were mostly soldiers of Ukraine who had been forcibly drafted into the Red Army and then deserted to the Polish-Ukrainian side. These were not kept in the POW camps and were in most cases instantly transferred to the Ukrainian Army. //Halibutt 09:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I used to live just there until about a year ago :/ Now I am far, far away, unfortunately.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong title 

message: Recentely the myths about this camps have been solved by joint Russian-Polish state comission:
http://www.archiwa.gov.pl/?CIDA=501
It would be good to translate summary of their findings into English.
--Molobo 18:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried running it through MT but I got gibberish. But I used it to rewrite the article, now the issue of the myth should no longer trouble us. And Russian editors can go and read the Russian 2004 source, which surely should provide them a much more information then this short info notice from Polish archive websites. Perhpas they can also find some Russian language reviews/comments about the book?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gentlemen, is it me or are you really blind? ;) There's this link called "English version" right above the text. Just click it and... you got a well-translated English version (not that you expected anything else)... //Halibutt 16:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently we were blind :) Mind you, it is a grey link on a white background: pretty but not very distinctive. I'll append the Polish version with English one right away, thanks! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Indeed, black on white would be more helpful... //Halibutt 07:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Can somebody translate

message: See the ref I quote at Talk:Katyn_massacre#Russian_attitudes_towards_Katyn. It has some useful numbers and such.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Useful ref

message: Is there a simmetric article?
Xx236 08:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Request fullfilled.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  06:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about Polish POWs in Soviet Russia? 

message: Why 1924? Weren't all prisoners released after the Treaty of Riga? At the very least, we need a ref that some remained in custody until that date.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  06:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess it's a leftover from the times when this article was also discussing the UNR soldiers. Anyway, I have Karpus on my shelve and I'll check the date of the last transport as soon as I have some time. //Halibutt 17:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 1924

message: What about droping 'camps for...' from the title? The shorter title will be as meaningful and that article (and its companions) are really about prisoners first, camps second. PS. Same goes for 'internees' - were there any Soviet internees in Poland?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  06:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rename

message: "Concentration camp and centre locations"
"Concentration camps" is a too big word for the camps around the country after the war. The Russians soldiers in camps were give food and medical support as much as situation could allowed to do this. No one exterminated Russian nation in these camps because of political, religious or nationality views. Quit using propaganda terms. Polish "concentration camps" comparing to these made by Germans are a joke, no one torturred Russian POW's, no one made them die from hunger, no one made them die from non medical treatmend etc. Comparing Polish "concentration camps" for Russian POWs they were heaven to these what Russians had for Polish POW's and historic documents are for this. 
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 02:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is far from neutral, but quite because the opposite of what you say. First, its categorized as "propaganda". Why ? Since when Allied war crimes are categorized as such ? Second, it almost entirely relies on a polish source, it's normal that a lot of things won't be mentioned there, such as the atrocities against prisoners with communist views, and the intented murders of similar. It was a concentration camp, not a children's leisure camp, considering the number of prisoners as well as the conditions there. I'm placing the NPOV template because of the very soft polish view, which is represented in the article. -  Tourbillon A ? 09:59, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It was a POW camp. Calling it concentration camp is propaganda. Please read what a concentration camp is before you abuse the term.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  15:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The conditions in it likely made it to closely ressemble a concentration camp - diseases and murders. Still, it relies almost entirely on polish sources, and is placed in category "propaganda" - which is far from neutral an article. Not to mention that the word "propaganda" is biased and quite different for every single individual. -  Tourbillon A ? 17:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The interpretation of conditions is your own speculation, and not a source for Wikipedia. The article is based on reliable Polish-Russian research, and is contradicted only by outdated Russian newspaper publications. If you have sources to the contrary, please provide them, otherwise there is no basis for tagging this article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  21:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am intelligent enough not to impose my point of view, and not to speculate, therefore I do not need your opinion about what am I trying to do. I think we are clear on that. I do not understand what is "outdated russian newspaper publications", neither what is the purpose of a "propaganda" category. I cannot find sources immediately, it will take a few days as I am quite busy in my real life. I won't put the tag for now, but I will remove the category. -  Tourbillon A ? 07:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a reasonable compromise. I will not restore the category unless a citation is provided for the use of word propaganda in this controversy.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  16:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: As I was asked on my talk page, I didn't think there was enough in the background and camp sections to meet a B.  Another paragraph or two in which of decent size should do it, however, if properly sourced.--Bedford Pray 18:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. For B-class, this also should have a list of camps. Polish wiki, where more info is located, also has a section on POW exchange, which is not covered here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 22:32, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  WHy not B? 

message: It wasn't settled, the Russian co-author continues his line.Xx236 (talk) 08:27, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you be more specific and provide sources and links? From what I understand "finally settled" means that the estimates converged, with Polish historians estimating 16-18k dead while the Russian historian(s) estimated 18-20k. Given the kind of crazy numbers that were being thrown around before hand that can be considered "settled". A separate issue is that the wrong numbers from before are still used for propaganda purposes by some politicians.Volunteer Marek 12:33, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The Russian co-editor publishes his POV in 2006 , after the book was finished.Xx236 (talk) 07:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

text: http://www.miesiecznik.znak.com.pl/2825/calosc/polska-rosja-trudny-dialog Xx236 (talk) 10:49, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The issue was finally settled in 2004 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: This last part titled "Poland's losses" is nothing but an apologetic sentiment from the Poles for the atrocities they've inflicted on the Soviet prisoners of war.  It's really disgusting that this kind of information is allowed on this Wiki page.  This is really like posting a section of the "Jewish crimes" on the page about Holocaust.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:A45F:F017:2077:B840:AFB5:3764 (talk) 02:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The last part of this article "Poland's losses" has no place on this page and needs to be deleted.