Talk:William Guy Carr/Archive 1

message: There are so many things wrong with this article, it is hard to know where to begin... First, Commander Carr died in 1959, so I have corrected statements such as "His investigations and studies have taken him... " to "His investigations and studies took him"... etc.
Beyond the tense issue, I noticed that the article was linked to the Freemasonry Page.  Reading between the lines, I gather that Commander Carr might have been an Anti-Mason of some kind.  However, as the article is written, there is no mention of this (indeed no mention of Freemasonry at all).  Thus, there is no justification for the link.  I have removed it for the time being.  Either state the connection, or leave out the link (and I would think that the correct link would be to the Anti-freemasonry page.)
Then there is the question of explaining Carr's views.  It is stated that Carr studied "the International Conspiracy" ... ok, from the context I would assume that this conspirasy has something to do with Bolshevism, but this is not explained.  The same goes for "Evil Forces" later in the article... what are these Evil Forces Carr wanted to inform people about.
Finally, I would have to say that this article has the potential for serious POV violations.  The only thing saving it at the moment is the fact that the article is so poorly written, it does not really make clear what that POV is against (Bolshevism?  Freemasonry? annonomous Evil Forces?)
It either needs a major re-write or a deletion. Blueboar 14:22, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV violations 

message: I have removed the "Anti-semitic people" category from Carr's entry. It's true that Carr did point to certain Jews as being involved in coordinating world events, but this did not make him categorically anti-Semitic.
:I now have sources that confrirm he was anti-Semitic (see actual version), Eristik 04:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Semitic 

message: IMO the main content of this page, an alleged conspiracy to program 3 world wars, is notable -- if only because if it were true, it would be really huge. 
It may not be necessary to repeat the entire argument, a short version with references might suffice
It's also possible that Carr himself is not notable and that it could be referenced under Pike
The reason this tale is so fascinating is that it seems to fit events, starting in the 1890's and the pieces falling into place around 1917, a few years before the 1925 mention in a book. 
The reason it is interesting now is we are now in the midst of the 3rd part or war of the prophecy taking place, the war between the west and Islam over Zionism. So even if it was made up in 1925, that is a prediction 80 years ahead -- pretty good!
Sounds notable to me. 
Where is the deletion discussion page ?
I agree with the previous writer as regards censorship which is alien to the concept of an encyclopedia. However, I think freemasonry is a red herring here, perhaps a false lead. There are factions within the masons, they are not monolithic. Specifically, most of the founding fathers who set up the American democracy were masons ; in response, the British set up the Scottish Rite as a counterrevolutionary clique, or so I have been told. 
Anyway, the secret society format is a perfect cover for state intelligence operations. If there is such a conspiracy then the obvious power pulling the strings would be the divide and conquer department of the good old British Empire, who, after all, set up the Palestine Mandate, a key piece of the Three World Wars puzzle. Albert Pike and Mazzini have been alleged to be British agents, Mazzini in charge of destabilizing continental rivals, Pike as part of the British instigation of the Civil War and support for the slave confederacy. 
A great yarn and highly thought-provoking in light of current crises. JPLeonard 07:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure where you get your information, but much of it is completely wrong.  For example, the British did not set up the Scottish Rite.  Most of the degrees that formed the rite originated in France (well before the Revolution).  These degrees were exported to the US shortly after the Revolution, where they were compiled by two seperate groups that today form the Scottish Rite in the US (a - Northern Jurisdiction and b - Southern Jurisdiction).  The rite as it is in England derived from the US Northern Jurisdiction.  So to say that the British set up Scottish Rite as a counter-revolutionary clique is simply incorrect. (see: Scottish Rite for more info.])
As to censorship.... my concerns for this article have nothing to do with censorship, they have to do with scholarship.  This article is seriously lacking in sources.  Furthermore, it repeats conjecture as if it were proven fact.  If it is not to be deleted, it needs serious work. Blueboar 18:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Argument for keeping this page (on freemasory), lack of sources 

message: I proded this as being non-notable, and someone removed the prod tag saying that this person is more than just a consipiracy nut... that he is notable for having an impact on other conspiracy theorists.  Fine. If that is indeed what makes him notable, why is there only one short mention of this?  This article is primarily a quote from one of his books and a brief refutation of about the source used to create the quote.  If he had such a large impact on conspiracy theory, shouldn't that impact take center stage?
Also... work needs to be done on citations and references. Blueboar 17:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is this person notable? 

message: As I have not recieved any reply to my comments above, nor has the article been edited to add the information requested... the article is now formally nominated for AfD. Blueboar 16:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  AfD 

message: OK... we are finally getting some attempt to add material to back the idea that Carr had an impact on conspiracy theorists.  I do have some problems ... the first is that the cites are to webpages that don't meet WP:RS or WP:FRINGE.  To pass muster with these guidelines we need "MAINSTREAM" sources that discuss Carr and his impact.  2) so far, the cites don't really talk about Carr and his theories ... they just accept his theory as fact and then expand on them.  However, I will take the attempt at good faith and will withdraw the AfD nom to give time to locate and add the kind of citation that is needed. Blueboar 02:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New cites.... 

message: Carr has had a real influence on conspiracy theorists during the late 50 years as we can read it in a recent book by fr:Pierre-André Taguieff. I'm adding a new reference to the article and I'm working on a french version of it. I think this article should not be deleted; hopefully I will add some official information on it. I found out that Carr was an active anti-Communist in Toronto and his books on submarine wars are still important today. I can confirm that he was an anti-Semite writer, an anti-Mason and an active right wing activist in Canada from the 30's to his death. Some further information about this can be found at the National library of Canada (Ottawa) .
05:25, 13 February 2007, from french Wiki. Or 216.246.245.166 in english (now Eristik).
:* To Danski14: please read the new information before erasing it.
216.246.245.166, 09:05 pm, 13 February 2007.
::This is great... finally someone has added a reliable source. But it leaves me with some big questions... As Tanguieff's book/monograph/whatever is in french, I have no way of checking that he is indeed saying what the article claims he said.  I am not challenging it... just asking for verification.  Is there an English translation?  Also, I would like to know if Tanguieff simply mentions Carr in passing, or whether he goes into any detail about Carr's influence. The article needs to discuss what Tanguieff says about Carr, at the moment it simply says that Tanguieff talks about him. Blueboar 15:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WG Carr studied by a french philosopher 

message: I have no problem with waiting a bit longer if someone is actually working on adding citations to show that Carr did indeed have an influence on conspiracy theory.  In fact, the article is almost to a point where I can say my concerns have been met.  Thank you for the work you have done so far.  Please keep it going. 
:On Taguieff... perhaps you could provide some pertinant quotes (in French with your own parenthetical translation?)... it would help.  Blueboar 12:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, I will provide pertinent quotes as soon as possible. I just made the french article for Carr and linked it to this one Eristik 14:05, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article almost meets the deletion concerns 

message: Question... do we really need to go into so much detail about each and every one of Carr's theories?  The article (to my mind) should be more about the man, and less about his theories.  I'm not saying we don't discuss the theories at all... but I think we could summarize the theories somewhat ... and provide links to articles that discuss the theories in more detail (I know that several articles exist on these theories). Blueboar 12:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you, my main concern was to convince you that Carr deserved an article in WP. I suggest - if you believe the article now deserves to be on WP - you abandon the demand of deletion and you can fix the article in a way that it concerns mainly the "man". I truly believe it is important to know who we are dealing with in conspiracy theories and I think we have reach a point of fair objectity about Carr. To you, Eristik 20:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article should be on the "man" rather than his writings 

message: And by the way, I think we should get rid of the quote about the "Three World Wars". It is interesting to mention the theory, but I don't believe we need such a long quote. What do you think of this?
:Totally agree with that.  We should summarize his theories... and concentrate on discussing the impact they had on conspiracy theory in general.  
As for my demands... given that you have been doing such great work while facing the threat of deletion, I am not sure if I should abandon my demand... I don't want you to stop!  But, seriously, I do have to say that my concerns are significantly reduced...  Yes, enough for me to back away from deletion.  I would now put it in the Keep but Clean Up category.  Would you be willing to continue working with me on this? Blueboar 20:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me, it will be a pleasure to keep on working on the page with you. I still have some information to add and I promess to take care of it as soon as possible ; I have no personal interest in Carr (I just have been studying conspiracy theorists for a couple years, that's why I know about him) but since I'm a French Canadian, I feel it's important to have pertinent information on him. He had an influence on other people in the province of Québec (I will also eventually try to write on this). Thank you for the "Keep but clean up" and feel free to take care of the "Three world war" part and the information you believe is superfluous about the theory of the "Eye of providence" (even what I wrote, it does'nt matter, we're looking for info on the "man"). Eristik 22:55, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You may find this of intrest before we move on... Carr claims that Franklin, Adams and Jefferson put Illuminati symbols on the dollar... thissite talks about the seal they actually came up with (which Congress rejected).  More of a Biblical influence than anything the illuminati would come up with, I would say. Blueboar 19:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussing the Three World Wars quote 

message: I have done a little bit of deleting and editing... to focus the article more on Carr and his influence and less on each of his claims.  For example, I re-worded the section on Pawns... taking out the quotes and turning it into a paraphrase of what is said.  I also removed the stuff about the back of the dollar bill.  It is certainly appropiate to talk about the fact that he believed that the dollar contains Illuminati symbols (especially if he was the first to claim this)... but I don't think we need to go into detail about the claim itself... it is dicussed in several other articles that we can link to. Blueboar 14:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK for the no consensus, but don't forget what you said erlier : "I would now put it in the Keep but Clean Up category.  Would you be willing to continue working with me on this? Blueboar 20:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. My only objection to the edit on the AfD result template was that such things are "official", and thus should not be changed.  However, I would agree that it is outdated.  Perhaps it should be archived (along with a lot of this page). Blueboar 11:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Focusing on Carr and not on claims