Talk:Black metal/Archive 1

message: Hey, sorry to wake you up, but what the heck did you mean by putting Isengard into "Tolkien Metal"? I know that the name Isengard was taken from Tolkien, but Fenriz plays something more folkish than Tolkienesque. Or did you mean the other, less known Isengard from Sweden? If that's the case, then it's okay with me, heh.
: Tolkien Metal isnt a form of music, it is actually an encompassing term like Goth Music (see the gothic music article). This means it encompasses any metal band with Lord Of The Rings based themes. If the band takes its lyrical theming from Lord Of The Rings, this is probally why some fans use the term Tolkien Metal to describe them. Leyasu 07:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Isengard

message: Removed "racist" bit, as it is opinionated. Added more information for band: Immortal. Section on Slavic bands is a bit misinforming about the major bands, will consider changing Oligopod
** Oh, really?  How is that "opinionated" when these bands espouse white supremacist ideology?
**Only some do.  Get a clue.
** Get a clue? what are you, in third grade?
: Not all black metal bands use white supremacy issues. This is mostly associated with NSBM (National Socialist Black Metal) bands. As of late, NSBM was merged into this article, so please look for it. Leyasu 07:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Racist?

message: What about the face paint?
: The face paint is called 'Corpse Paint'. It should be mentioned in the article, if not, then please let me know. Leyasu 07:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Face paint

message: Do we really need distinct articles about subgenres of a Metal subgenre or is it better to describe them in the main article? Expecially since Vikings, battles, middle ages and Tolkien's works are quite a common theme in most Metal subgenres and therefore the names could be misleading. Valhalla
I do think we need separate articles. You describe everything thats common to Black metal and its sub-genres in the Black metal-page, and then on each sub-genre page you describe what makes this sub-genre uniqe. sandos
I certainly haven't heard titles like "Tolkien metal" or "Suicidal black metal" being used to describe cohesive and musically distinct sub-genres outside of Wikipedia. In the cases of troll metal, Tolkien metal and the like, they seem to refer to the lyrical content of the bands in question, which is a tad absurd since rock bands have taken inspiration from Tolkien's works ever since Led Zeppelin's first album. Black Sabbath were lyrically inspired by Dennis Wheatley, but no-one ever called them "Wheatley metal" did they?
NSBM seems a slightly less unnecessary distinction as it is a cohesive musical movement, particularly in eastern Europe, and it is a generally unified ideology (however immature and unsound that ideology may seem to yours truly), but I'd still strongly suggest that it be merged with the main article on black metal.
belzub
----
It's the nature of modern rock music that it propagates sub genres. given that, having separate pages for each subgenre makes sense because each one could itself become a source of other sub genres.
Just combined the old and new material.
Here are the major deletions and my reasoning:
:creating musical harmonies deemed impossible by many music critiques of the 
early 1980s. 
::irrelevant and meaningless.
:Helvete (which translates into Hell) also served as one of the economic foundations for the movement, but the main one was the label "Deathlike Silence", who refused to sign any band that wasn't purley evil.
::vague and silly
:If you are just getting into the genre than here are some recommendations according to preference (there are many subgenres i will only name the most notable)
::advocacy
:-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gothic Influenced Keyboard dripping Black metal - The Sins of Thy Beloved, 
Tristania, etc. The interesting thing about this sub-genre is that it is the 
easiest to find.
http://www.tristania.com
http://www.tsotb.com
-No, the interesting thing is that neither of them are Black Metal.-
Black influenced gothic Metal or "Norse-core" - (this genre has notable been 
mistaken for black metal because the bands that are in it have black elements 
but they are not really totally black metal) this genre features Dimmu Borgir, 
and the like.
http://www.dimmu-borgir.com
: Please see the Gothic Metal article for how your information is wrong. Leyasu 07:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: NSBM already is mentioned on the article since its merger. Leyasu 07:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Viking Metal already has an article. Leyasu 07:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Subgenres

message: The German article about corpsepaint on http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpsepaint should be translated and added to Black Metal section. It presents the hypothesized origins of corpsepaints through history.
I add another remark: in the French film called "L'Odyssée de l'Espèce" ("The Odyssey of Species") which deal with the first hominids' origins, shows in a reconstitution of a Homo Sapiens tribe in Europe corpsepaints really similar to those observed on Black Metal bands. (http://www.dinosoria.com/fondespece.jpg)It is noteworthy to say that this movie was realized by Jacques Malaterre with the help of anthropologists (f.i. the famous Yves Coppens) and this shows how this reconstitution is scientifically relevant and, maybe, very close to 'truth' ( look at pics in 'Gallerie' section http://odysseedelespece.france3.fr/). Some further information could be found in scientifical publications about the scientifical relevancy of the use and importance of these paintings in early Europeans.
Therefore, there may be a connection between prehistorical corpsepaints, the later Northern cultures (Scandinavian and German), some Medieval burial practices with dead corpses, with the nowadays corpsepaintings (mainly 'face-paints') worn within Metal culture: Thrash, Black or Glam (look at German Wiki article, linked just above).
It SEEMS POSSIBLE that this practice of corpsepainting, with white colour on face and black colour on eyes (and mouth sometimes), had been an early European prehistorical tradition, conserved later mainly in Northern Europa and merging again today in Metal genres' aesthetism.  It hasn't been discussedif other cultures have the same make-ups. But, due to the fact that mineral or vegetal substances used for make-ups are linked to a certain ecosystems, this tradition MAY be a European specificity. It is just an HYPOTHESIS.
But, this hypothesis should be mentionned and discussed in the article. Why? For if it may be linked with early Europeans traditions, it would echoe the common "anti christian", "pagan" claims of Black Metal. In this way, it could be viewed as an 'pagan', pre-christian (and anti-chrisitan) symbol, but far older than Black Metal.
Very interesting! Ulfednar 06:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Of Corpsepaints' origins:''' 

message: While venom is mentioned as one of the key black metal bands, in the history, everything preceding the explosion of black metal in norway is left out. I believe Venom and Bathory deserve mention in the history before the rest of those artists because they were the first two black metal bands. Also I think Dimmu Borgir should not be listed as a notable black metal band. The person that discussed it here (which for some reason I can't seem to respond to) said himself that Dimmu Borgir was black influenced gothic metal. Well being influenced by black metal doesn't make a band a notable black metal band now does it? The rest of the list is very good. Sanctum 02:05, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Very limited history 

message: I've added musical samples for BM: 30 seconds each from Bathory-Woman of Dark Desires, Burzum-Ea, Lord of the Deeps and Immortal-Grim and Frostbitten Kingdoms. I believe these musically pretty much represent what most people agree to be black metal. I was tempted to put a sample of Venom-Black Metal, but it would be useless for genre identification processes.
Could someone maybe format the sample box better? I'm hopeless. (sorry about lateness, my net went down as I was posting this) --KharBevNor 16:49, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: added samples

message: See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Acoustic black metal. Johnleemk | Talk 09:56, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Acoustic black metal]] merged here 

message: anyone else think the history needs more on the first wave of black metal? (venom, bathory, and stuff) --Eel 21:09, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  history 

message: Someone fix this entry; Faggoth only refers to wanna-be black metal bands that add an excess of gothic metal shit.
Also, I haven't checked to see if Norsecore has it's own page, but if so it should be merged in the section explaining what faggoth means, and if not it should be mentioned, for reference as a derogative term.
: Faggoth is a term that fans such as yourself use as a Neoglistic insult. Gothic Metal fans disappreciate the term as many other fans do. Both sides of this veiw are represented. Leyasu 22:28, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly. Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath are not Death Metal. Secondly, the above list are all used by many Black Metal bands for show, so their is no real difference between 2 bands doing it and 30 more doing it. Leyasu 02:02, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I find this treatment of the term 'Norsecore' as a serious genre by Wikipedia to be absurd.  Norsecore, as known by all those involved in the metal scene, is simply a derogatory term for what is essentialy death metal or grindcore with a thin sheen of black metal layed on top.  Not to say it's bad; Panzer Division Marduk is fucking awesome.
As a BM fan I have never heard of Faggoth, concerning Noisecore, this IS a serious genre in its own right, The artist Dan Doormouse mixed a compilation of Noisecore on Digitalhut Sounds a few years ago, consisting of fast noisy distorted droning techno, nothing to do with Black Metal.
A.Grace 01:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, but they were talking about Norsecore, not noisecore. Mr. Death 15:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Faggothic section and Norsecore 

message: Black Metal has plenty of nicknames. Below are a few:
*Satan Rock
*Goth Metal
*Dark Metal
*Demonoid Metal
*Death Metal
*Unholy Metal
*Possessed Metal
*Fear-Embedding Metal
*Blood Metal
*Termination Metal
*Pagan Metal
*Sacreligious Metal
: The term Goth Metal has affiliation with [], not Black Metal. Leyasu 02:08, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never heard anyone who knew anything about Black Metal refer to it as any of the following: Goth Metal, Demonoid Metal, Possessed Metal, Fear-Embedding Metal, Blood Metal, Termination Metal or Sacreligious Metal. Where do these terms come from? Besides, Death Metal is a music genre of its own, and the term Dark Metal I first heard coined by the German band Bethlehem, although I don't know if they did intend it another genre than Black Metal or just another alias for it. Mr. Death 09:02, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black Metal Nick-names 

message: The Anti-Semitism in Black Metal is short and doesn't have a very good NPOV.  Perhaps a section could addressing anti-semitism (or criticisms) could be created?  James084 23:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: With a blurb on National Socialist Black Metal added, I don't think this is necessary anymore.--Astrosa 03:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Semitism in Black Metal Merge Proposal 

message: I think That This Article Should Be Moved To The History Section  Frenrir1 02:35, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy in Malaysia 

message: Holy crap. Troll Metal? This whole article needs one good re-write. I'ts quite simply terrible at this point. I think that the auhtors who first wrote about rhese subgenres decided to overlable things a bit.
: They were kept after AFD, and said to be merged here. Thus they have been. The article is in a state of disrepair, however. The article doesnt need a complete rewrite, but does need an overhaul. Overhaul it if yew wish Nargos, but make sure not to loose any information. I suggest doing it on a temp page, for instance Black Metal/Temp, should suffice. Ley Shade 18:40, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Blackened death metal should be in the Death Metal article. The rest are all fine to merge here. Ley Shade 22:21, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complete rewrite 

message: What's the differnce bewteen thrash and black metal? It seems so much similar...will someone please explain it to me? Thanks! :)
Actually, what is known as the first wave of black metal is basically a form of thrash.  Bathory is musically very similar to thrash.  However later bands moved further away from thrash.  I'm not a musician myself, so I can't tell you what it is musically, but there is generally a greater emphasis on atmosphere and the lyrics are considered evil for one reason or another.  Of course there are no hard set rules, but most bands who are distinctly black metal follow them. marnues 04:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Difference between black metal and thrash???

message: Why is this genre called black metal when most of the people in this scene are racists and fascists?
* Because black has other meanings than this one. Same thing goes for Black comedy. Denis C. 19:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Calling people racists and fascists is a serious insult. At least if you had any arguments to back up your theory I might accept talking this over, but you obviously know nothing about the subject. So please, don't talk about things you don't know about. Obviously there are racists and fascist black metal bands, just like there are racist and fascist pop bands, racist and fascist classical composers, rascist and fascist rap artists... but this is a minority. So please, look at the facts before being insulting. --IronChris 20:20, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not every hiphop group is also unfriendly regarding women and preaching male domination over the femal part of mankind (pimps and hoes), although sometimes it may appear as such. True, there are racists and fascists among black metal groups (National Socialist black metal), but won't you find these also elsewhere? Black metal and it's sub-genres often deal with paganism (turning into anti-christian and satanist tendencies) and ancient history of the Nordic countries, but being proud of your national or religious heritage is not automatically a racist or fascist act. Brynnar 12:03, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Black" Metal

message: Leyasu, can you explain why you restored the "faggoth" section? What AfD are you talking about? There has been a discussion going on at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Metal#Faggoth (on the black metal page), to which you are of course welcome to participate, and for the moment there is unanimous opposition to this section (and several of the following ones). Restoring this section is therefore completely illogical. --IronChris  |  (talk) 19:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because its article went through AFD and was voted to be merged here, thus removing it is a violation of AFD. I already explained this on the talk page for the Wikiproject. Ley Shade 19:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually at the time i was banned and couldnt post, otherwise i would have. Im not stupid, so dont talk down to me ¬¬ Ley Shade 21:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is "faggoth" back? 

message: These are totally terrible. I think (nearly) everyone agreed to have them deleted on the Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Metal#Faggoth_.28on_the_black_metal_page.29 page. If no one has strong objections, I'll remove them in the next couple of days or so... Spearhead 21:42, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely, that would be great. --IronChris  |  (talk) 02:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, please.  dbtfztalk 02:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, go ahead. Votes are nearly all unanimous, save for Cyber metal (which has 2x keep, 2x merge and 1x delete). Perhaps we can put this item to merge with industrial metal, but I suspect that there will be another dicussion about this :-) Any suggestions? Brynnar 13:05, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  please discuss it if you like but under a different heading (start a new one if you like). I am in particular referring here to Faggoth, Troll metal, War metal. Spearhead 13:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Good job. OK for removing the dispute banner for war metal. Any reverts can safely be considered as vandalism I think. Thanks! IronChris  |  (talk) 16:05, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, well considering the amount of vandalism/blanking/restoring on this page, I think many people have become a bit "revert-happy". Maybe you should consider getting an account (that might make things easier for one thing). I couldn't see your previous edit, did you use another IP? Anyway I know little about war metal so I wouldn't be able to check if it was right anyway. But I think that now that some of the most controversial sections have rightly been removed, we should chill out on the reverting sometimes (though as I couldn't find your edit I don't know if it was justified or not). Regards IronChris  |  (talk) 16:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Faggoth has been cleared coz its noted on the Gothic Metal article now, instead of here. As for the other one that was deleted, i am readding it due to violation of AFD, and whoever deletes it again i will report to the admin noticeboard for violation of that AFD. Ley Shade 14:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  How difficult is it to understand that it is not wanted on this page. I have removed this again. Store it on your user space if you value it. Spearhead 15:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

text:  Wether you want it or not, you cannot violate Policy, that is Vandalism. If you want it gone, you will have to author an AFD and/or an RFC on the section. Undermining policy is vandalism, and i dont stand for it. In my view, the section can go to the deepest realms of deletion, but if it gets gone, it gets gone the proper way. That means, not violating Policy just because you want it gone. Ley Shade 15:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Go report it and see what happens.... Spearhead 15:26, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

text:  Done. And last time someone violated AFD they got a one week ban, for the exact same thing as youve done. General good faith doesnt excuse you vandalisng. This is something you need to realise. 
Ley Shade 15:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

text: the AFD states "keep" maybe recreation of troll metal then is a good temporary solution (and perhaps put it up for AFD again). Spearhead 16:37, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

text: concerning minor genres I don't think that they deserve any place on WP - they're not minor for nothing and hence not notableSpearhead 16:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can we finally get rid of the subforms sections? 

message: * I think we've hit a loophole in policy here guys, Ley (wb) is right in asserting that Troll metal was "kept" (VfD here), which means there is a place for it on WP and it shouldn't really be merged to one article and then quietly slid off the face of WP through the back door after discussion on another talk page. However, when topics like this are kept it is up to interested parties (e.g. WikiProject Metal members) to find the right place to put it. Consensus rules, but AfD consensus overrides talk page consensus. I think that we should either a) agree to create an odds and ends page of Minor heavy metal scenes and sub-genres or at least b) discuss this further at WP:HMM, where members should be about where Troll metal fits best, not who will get the better of hanging this up on the admin's board. Deizio 16:16, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the AFD states "keep" maybe recreation of troll metal then is a good temporary solution (and perhaps put it up for AFD again). Spearhead 16:37, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

text: concerning minor genres I don't think that they deserve any place on WP - they're not minor for nothing and hence not notableSpearhead 16:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Troll metal: Where next?

message: Every time I search for a subject to find information on, there is a discussion going on about wrong information, debates about relativity between genres, and all kinds of crap. Seriously, I looked for battle metal and it brought me to the black metal page. Black metal and battle metal are NOT THE SAME or similar at all, despite any possibly influencial relations between the genres. Thus, they should not be grouped into a single wiki... Battle Metal shouldn't be stuck on the black metal page, just as progressive metal is not the same as progressive rock.
I know, sometimes it can be confusing all these different metal genres, but it's really not that hard to figure out. There is no influence on black metal from punk, that is an ignorant statement. There may be punk influence on INDUSTRIAL BLACK METAL, but that's a completely different genre.
Thanks for taking the time to read. :) --Oinkness 23:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's quite an ignorant statement to say that there are no influence from punk in black metal. Of course it is. Celtic Frost, Venom, Slayer, etc. They are probably all very punk influenced, and so in extension punk have influenced for example Darkthrone, and those influenced by Darkthrone, and so on. But anyway, who cares, there are too many genres as it is. Why not just say there's Black Metal and be done with it. Oh my god (i.e. Satan), I hate genres... Mr. Death 15:23, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of Comprehension