Talk:Crime in South Africa

message: There should definitely be a section on which demographic groups are most affected by crime in SA. I'm not sure where one would find such statistics.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.172.14.80 (talk) 12:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean by 'demographics'?  Race, tribe, gender, age, per-province or more in-depth study like income distribution, level of education, etc?  The likelihood is that Stats SA does have some basic information like that, but I wouldn't like to think about extrapolating it from SAPS crime figures.  If we're just talking about just racial breakdown I'd have to see these stats as reliable but would probably oppose it.  Kit Berg (talk) 12:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: bullshit!!!!!! 146.141.119.69 (talk) 12:04, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: If anyone is a subscriber to the South African Institute of Race Relations Surveys, they have a tendency to break things down by demographic groups. I recall being able to find things like life expectancy separated into race. (If you're curious, yes, it varies heavily across race groups.) That said, I'm not sure what their crime stats were like (or wherefrom), or whether they were broken down by race/income group/whatever. I used to receive copies at home in Cape Town, but no longer reside in SA. Warrickball (talk) 18:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Demographic breakdown of crime statistics?

message: Oppose - only because the Farm Murders page is a joke.  Keep it as ghetto-ized as possible.  This page actually has some potential to be informative and from a npov, but I have feeling the farm murders page will forever be haunted by extremists and closet racists. Lionchow 15:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oppose - this article is probably going to become very lengthy with time, and then the farm murders would just have to be unmerged again, which is a waste of time. I suggest we may mention farm murders in the article, but keep the two articles seperate. Maybe something like "there are also lots of farm murders (see main article)" or something like that. --Adriaan90 13:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

text: The farm attacks are crime, like everything else, despite the conspiracy theories. However, I think it is best to keep them to their own article, as they will attract different editors. Wizzy…☎ 09:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge with South Africa Farm Murders?

message: Thank-you for your change. As you can see I've reverted this change. As you may know you are of course entitled to revert it BACK to how you had it - but as is policy, we should try to discuss eachother's reasoning first so that one of us might convince the other to their point of view.
You removed the following:
While South Africa might lead the statistics for many violent crimes, these crimes only affect approximately 5 people more per 1000 population than countries such as the United States, Canada, Australia, United Kingdom and New Zealand. 
and cited
I took out comparison with Developed countries because it was extremely missleading, as 5 more crimes per 1000 people is quite large. ~ Charlesblack)
If you look at the diff before your change: | HERE you will find it in one of the middle paragraphs of the introduction section of the article.
Having read through the introduction section of the article, I do find that comment to be rather relevant and contextual, and is the exact type of information people wanting an encyclopedia article on the subject might want. However, as you say, it may be extremely misleading as' 5 more violent crimes per 1000 people is quite large you say. More over the fact is completely unreferenced and unsourced - and there lies the possibility that it is inaccurate or quite possibly false.
And for that reason I understand why you want to remove it.
Unfortunately in many cases it is better to amend something or improve something on Wikipedia and leave deletion as a last resort. Deletion -- in this case -- should only be used if something is false, and certainly if we simply can't verify something or find a source to back it up we can then look at deletion. But because you did not follow that line of thought, it stands that the line should not be deleted, and instead we should try to improve it and find some sources for it.
(I should jokingly say that you should become an Admin, they LOVE to delete all the encyclopedic articles that they find ANY conceivable error with - even with offers to improve it, much like the case of the Anal stretching article.)
Now, as a compromise, I have reverted that sentence, but will try add some tags to say it is an unverified source, or that a citation is needed, and I will try and improve upon its prose. If I find the time I will see if the claims can't be caroborated and found to be accurately true.
Rfwoolf 14:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will remove this. It is one of the clearest example of misuse of statistics I have seen at Wikipeidia. To make a big point out of, like, only five of 1000 people are raped or murdered?, I mean, what IS the point? To make this crime-rate seem small? It is an out of line attempt of using incomparable statistics. It makes me cringe. It is totally hopeless. Greswik 19:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  For Charlesblack: Why I reverted your edit about 5 people more per 1000 population. 

message: Comment by Illiwara moved to this new section by Rfwoolf
I have removed the phrase  "in areas of very low crime" from the text. All available experience and statistics indicate that there are no inhabited areas with "very low crime rates" in South Africa.
:I'm inclined to call your bluff on this. While it is true that South Africa suffers from very high levels of crime, there are areas like in PE where there are still low walls or no walls around houses (and indeed in some places in Johannesburg you can see suburban houses with low or no walls), and indeed in some of the "wealthy" suburbs that all have high walls and electric fencing and boom gates and cameras and security guards -- I'm sure could be clasified as areas with "very low crime rates".
:Unfortunately there is also discontention about what constitutes "low crime rates" and what constitutes "high crime rates" - perhaps the right thing to do is to change the wording to say "lower crime rates" as opposed to "low crime rates". What do you think? 
12:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Areas with "Very low crime rates"

message: I've noticed Interpol's figures often appear to include attempted murders and is mistaken for the murder rate. In other words, less than half the 114.8 'murders' are actual homicides. The report was published in 2002, and SAPS crime statistics from the previous year 2001 state there were 47.5 murders per 100,000 and 67.3 attempted murders per 100,000 - the figure comes exactly to 114.8 per 100,000.
Another one is from 1996 where the popular article 'Murder in South Africa: a comparison of past and present' claims Interpol recorded 54,298 murders while the SAPS had less than half that. Again, Interpol simply got the info passed on to them from the SAPS (as they do) and added attempted murders to the total. For 1996, 25,782 murders and 28,516 attempted murders comes to 54,298.
More than just a coincidence. Sarcastic Sid 08:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good work. I say we amend it. I'm one of those that thinks South Africa's biggest problem is crime, and that it has a MAJOR crime problem, but we need to separate fact from fiction, reality from fantasy, truth from propaganda. Rfwoolf 10:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So is this going to be amended then? I see this WikiPedia page  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate conflicts with much that is listed on this page ...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.31.55.135 (talk) 15:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interpol figures 

message: I believe that this statement The media is often sensationalist in its reporting of crime leading to high levels of fear. The insurance industry usually requires level of home security much higher than the actual levels of crime for a region. This means that communities often install very sophisticated intruder detection systems. violates the NPOV requirement. Where is the evidence for this statement ? I live in South Africa and I do not find the reporting of crime to be sensationalist. I would argue that the media under-reports it. It been my experience that insurance companies only ask for a security gate and burglar bars on windows that open. I was not told to have an alarm installed. Therefore I have decided to remove this statement from this wiki. 165.145.212.116 (talk) 20:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questioning the neutrality of a statement 

message: :Image:South African police date-rape poster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:South African police date-rape poster.jpg

message: This person from the Institute of Security Studies posted a 1996 article about White collar crime in South Africa. I am not sure if it is still relevant, but here is what I found:   WhisperToMe (talk) 22:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be loath to rely on a 1996 study for anything like this.  For a start, there's a lot of phishing, etc., often carried out by foreign groups (consult any retail bank website for correlation).  That kind of tech crime won't even get a mention, which immediately throws out everything else.  Crime has changed a lot in 12 years, like many other things.  Kit Berg (talk) 22:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Where would the material belong? Would something like a History section for crime work? - A USAID  article written sometime after 2000 is here:  WhisperToMe (talk) 22:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Article discussing *other* forms of white collar crime in South Africa

message: ===Claim that maps don't show gated community boundaries===
I've placed a citation needed tag on this claim. In my experience it's simply false. My street map of Johannesburg clearly shows all road closures as an X over the point in the road and I have yet to find an exception with an up-to-date map. There's no solid line indicating the entire boundary of gated communities, certainly, but that is irrelevant to the point about emergency services. Joe (talk) 15:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Gated Communities section

message: I've placed a citation needed tag on this claim. In my experience it's simply false. My street map of Johannesburg clearly shows all road closures as an X over the point in the road and I have yet to find an exception with an up-to-date map. There's no solid line indicating the entire boundary of gated communities, certainly, but that is irrelevant to the point about emergency services. Joe (talk) 15:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Claim that maps don't show gated community boundaries

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Why does the murder rate start in 1994? I can only think its an attempt to obsfucate the fact that the murder rate was no where as high under apartheid, until the end where south africa was bubbling towards a race based civil war. The murder rate in the 70s is well documented so why not include it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.16.13.191 (talk) 18:02, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Which table, graph or section are you talking about? There is a graph in the introduction that has been in this article for many years now that goes all the way back to 1910. I assume you must be talking about the section on murder only as the table and graph there only start at 1994. I can't speak for the person who added that section and those graphs but I suspect they started at 1994 because it seems to be common practice in South Africa (for all types of issues and events) to focus on events following South Africa's democratic transition which happened in 1994. It also saves space on graphs and tables. That is my theory at least.--Discott (talk) 08:39, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Murder 

message: I've noticed that this article does not mention crime before 1994. Why is this arbitrary date set?Wordbearer88 (talk) 22:03, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: History of Crime

message: A highlight rate of crime in my area many young people lose their lives as a result of this crime write an article for a local newspaper in which you highlight this problem also suggest ways in which teenagers can protect themselves from this crime 196.192.88.50 (talk) 16:55, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Suggesting ways that people can protect themselves from crime isn't really within the remit of Wikipedia, I'm afraid. See WP:NOTGUIDE for an explanation. It might be possible for the article to summarise what reliable sources have said about protecting against crime, but the article can't make suggestions. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:57, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  English 

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thread_title:  Move discussion in progress