Talk:North America/Archive 2

message: Hello, please note that users User:Cogito ergo sumo, User:Ex post factoid, anonimous users under IPs 142.150.134.XX and User:E Pluribus Anthony are the same person as you can note here on the suspected sock puppet page, also here  and . Now, we can really start a civilized discussion on how to handle this article. AlexCovarrubias 05:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: More evidence about User:E Pluribus Anthony long history of abusive sockpuppetry to give the "impression of conscensus" (User:Lucky Mustard and User:A the 0th) can be read here  AlexCovarrubias 07:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sockpuppetry on this article and talkpage 

message: I am not sure if Trinidad belongs to south America. It seems as if belongs to South America... How about some feedback?
I am taking Trinidad out and adding it to South America... http://www.visittnt.com/
:I have readded it to North America.  For one thing, it never got added to South America after all.  For another, it is grouped in North America in every source I have consulted.  I said it on the South America talk page, and I say it here--find me an actual recent reference that lists Trinidad and Tobago as part of South America, and we can discuss it.  Otherwise, we have the existing references versus your "It seems..." Alfvaen 05:06, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)
::Remember: things don't always fit nicely into little neat perfect boxes.  There's usually some exceptions to the rule.  Now, if you're going to bend the truth and claim that the Caribbean plate is part of the North American plate you end up with more issues that must be bent. Trinidad and Tobago (as a unitary state) are both on the Caribbean plate and the South American Plate.  Trinidad is a chunk of land which broke off from Venezuela and still sits on the South American continent.  Trinidad lies ~7-8 Miles off Venezuela's northeast coast.  Tobago is only about 22 Miles northeast of Trinidad clearly in what would be considered the Caribbean Sea or the Caribbean Plate Cuba or there-abouts is pretty much the actual end of the North American Plate. CaribDigita 21:34, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trinidad 

message: Right now the article says "The highest peak is Denali in Alaska (which can be considered the tallest in the world if measured from the base to the summit, as distinct from sea level to summit)."  Where did they get that from?  Reference please?  "Rise above base" is not a well-defined concept mathematically, so one could pick any mountain they like for this distinction.  Topographic prominence, on the other hand, is well-defined, and the mountain with the greatest topographic prominence on earth is Everest.  This claim should be made more specific or removed entirely.
:Denali (A.K.A. Mount McKinley) is the highest peak in North America, although whether or not it's the highest base-to-peak is something I can't speak to.  That said, measured sealevel to summit, Mt. Everest is indisputably the highest mountain on earth, and measured base-to-summit, as opposed to sealevel to summit, Mauna Kea is indisputedly the tallest mountain in the world, something that is clarified in the articles on both those mountains themselves.  Edit accordingly. Tomer TALK 07:52, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Denali, highest on earth? 

message: The article says: "In the United States, the term Middle America is sometimes used to refer to Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean collectively." I am removing it.
At least within the United States, "Middle America" is  not used to refer to the continent, but part of the country. Maurreen 04:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just remove the US blurb/clause: it is used to dually describe those three areas in the Americas (more germane for this article) but also the Midwest US; popular dictionaries, e.g., will indicate both.  Perhaps even add the US notation to it; however, Middle America (disambiguation) covers this (though can be tweaked).  E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 04:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Maurreen 04:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with Maurreen, Middle America is pretty much always been used to describe the middle class in the United States, and also “Middle America” which includes a lot countries, is only mention when it comes to Mexico, and basically only in the CIA worldfact, how convenient is that...? so that part has to be removed.Supaman89 17:47, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

text: This original discussion -- now resolved -- is 1.5 years old.  Please.  The CIA likely describes the country as such -- not the only source -- because: (a) it is correctly in that region, (b) it is more precise (alternatively, it's in southern North America), (c) no other countries occupy such an ambiguous position in North America, on the isthmus adjoining North and South America.  That's that. Corticopia 21:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Middle America

message: Pending a groundswell of opposition, I've been bold and nixed the redundant list of territories which was essentially duplicated in the table below; I've not detailed the political status of the various territories in the table but might later.  Of course, the article (and similar continental/regional articles) can stand for some reorganisation (e.g., re-ordering of sxns) for consistency.  Perhaps the list should be preserved in an article entitled Geography of North America (as is the case with some of the other continents/regions, and which I'm surprised doesn't exist yet) or the like?  Anyhow, there you go!  E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 06:22, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Table and list

message: Any info in this article about the use of the term as if it meant exclusively Canada and the United States?? Georgia guy 23:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes: in the 'Human geography' section, namely the 3rd paragraph.  Other related terms are also treated in that sxn.  E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:49, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk about... 

message: The current definition seems to exclude the Francophone Caribbean - we metnion "Anglo-America" which is the US, Canada, and the Anglophone Caribbean; and "Latin America" which is the Spanish and Portuguese speaking areas.  Francophone areas seem to be explicitly excluded, except a brief mention of Quebec. john k 15:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding is that the "Latin" refers to Romance languages, including French. Maurreen 16:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is true, but Latin America does not include Quebec for instance.  It's just the way the term is used.  WilyD 16:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I figure it's based on countries. Maurreen 16:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure that that's the case.  I understand it to be a cultural thing, making the name Latin America possibly a slight misnomer.  WilyD 16:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, that sounds about right - to be honest, I don't really buy the Anglo America & Latin America articles - with respect to North America, in common usage I believe Latin America covers all of North America less Canada, the States, Greenland, Bermuda, St. Pierre et Miqqy, and possibly Jamaica.  So your dicdef sounds about right. WilyD 17:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: "Latin America" means different things to different people/places. In the United States they say everything to the South is Latin America. Though, in the english speaking Caribbean, they don't regard themselves as being in Latin America and use the term to refer to all other independent areas of Central America or South America.  France has likewise changed their relationship between the main part of the country and their Caribbean territories.  I haven't studied the politics of Martinique, Guadeloupe, or Saint-Barthelemy in a while but part of the change had to do with calling them "Departments".  The French Government also did something along the lines of placing one of the ministries of their central government in the Caribbean islands effectively placing the French Government in the Caribbean as well.  That might be part of the reason it was removed.  France and their "Departments" is more like the relationship Hawaii and Alaska have with the "lower 48". France has effectively made those islands a part of their country.  The Netherlands are doing a similar exercise in their territories right now as well, they've basically asked them to vote on becoming more integrated into that country's central government or else becoming more autonomous like Aruba. CaribDigita 00:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anglo-America / Latin America 

message: If "North America" is standard usage, where did "Northern America" come from? Is it a neologism? Is it politically correct UN-speak? --Uncle Ed 17:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it is the name the UN choose for the subregion.  I'm not aware of any history beyond that.  And while it's standard usage to overload "North America" in the States and Canada, the usage of "North America" for just "Northern America" is far less formal, and would be contraversial with Central Americans - view the comments from Mexicans on this page, for example. WilyD 17:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I wouldn't think there's anything "politically correct" about it, but rather that the UN's goal was to divide the world up economically. The U.S. and Canada are much more economically similar to each other than the rest of North America, and thus were placed into one of the UN's regions. They had to invent a term for it, and voila. --Yath 18:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Usage

message: this edit is seriously a point of contention? WilyD 14:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Seriously?

message: This definitions are listed to prove that Mexico is not often considered as a Central American nation. Only english definitions are included. In Europe, Central and South America, Mexico is never listed as Central American.
American Heritage Dictoriaries
North America
The northern continent of the Western Hemisphere, extending northward from the Colombia-Panama border and including Central America, Mexico, the islands of the Caribbean Sea, the United States, Canada, the Arctic Archipelago, and Greenland.
Website
Central America
A region of southern North America extending from the southern border of Mexico to the northern border of Colombia. It separates the Caribbean Sea from the Pacific Ocean and is linked to South America by the Isthmus of Panama.
Website
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2004, 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved
MSN Encarta Encyclopedia
North America (subregion)
Third largest of the seven continents, including Canada (the 2nd largest country in area in the world), the United States (3rd largest), and Mexico (14th largest). The continent also includes Greenland, the largest island, as well as the small French overseas department of Saint-Pierre and Miquelon and the British dependency of Bermuda (both made up of small islands in the Atlantic Ocean). Together with Central America, the West Indies, and South America, North America makes up the Western Hemisphere of Earth.
Website
Central America
Central America, region of the western hemisphere, made up of a long, tapering isthmus that forms a bridge between North and South America. Central America, which is defined by geographers as part of North America, has an area of about 521,500 sq km (about 201,300 sq mi) and includes the countries of Guatemala, Belize, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama. The region has a population of approximately 36.4 million (2000 estimate).
Website
"North America," Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2006
http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2006 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
Crystal Reference Encyclopedia
North America (subregion)
Third largest continent, extending 9600 km/6000 mi from 70°30N to 15°N; Area c.24 million km²/9¼ million sq mi; separated from Asia by the Bering Strait; bounded by the Beaufort Sea (NW), Arctic Ocean (N), Baffin Bay and Davis Strait (NE), Atlantic Ocean (E), and Pacific Ocean (W); includes Canada, USA, and Mexico; numerous islands, including Baffin I, Newfoundland, and the West Indies; ranges include the Rocky Mts, Alaska Range (including Mt McKinley, highest point), and Appalachian Mts; major lake system, the Great Lakes; major rivers include the Mississippi, Missouri, Rio Grande, and St Lawrence.
Website
Crystal Reference Encyclopedia, © Crystal Reference Systems Limited 2006
Columbia University Press
North America
Third largest continent (1990 est. pop. 365,000,000), c.9,400,000 sq mi (24,346,000 sq km), the northern of the two continents of the Western Hemisphere. North America includes all of the mainland and related offshore islands lying N of the Isthmus of Panama (which connects it with South America). The term “Anglo-America” is frequently used in reference to Canada and the United States combined, while the term “Middle America” is used to describe the region including Mexico, the republics of Central America, and the Caribbean.
Website
Central America
Central America, narrow, southernmost region (c.202,200 sq mi/523,698 sq km) of North America, linked to South America at Colombia. It separates the Caribbean from the Pacific. Generally, it is considered to consist of the seven republics (1990 est. pop. 29,000,000) of Belize, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama.
Website
The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition Copyright © 2003, Columbia University Press. Licensed from Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.
Houghton Mifflin Company
North America
Third-largest continent (after Asia and Africa), comprising Canada, the United States, Mexico, and Central America.
Central America
Region in the southernmost portion of North America, linked to South America by the Isthmus of Panama; includes Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Panama. 
The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition Edited by E.D. Hirsch, Jr., Joseph F. Kett, and James Trefil. Copyright © 2002 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin. All rights reserved.
Encyclopaedia Britannica
North America
The third largest of the continents, North America extends from Alaska, the Queen Elizabeth Islands, and Greenland to Panama's eastern border with Colombia in South America. Canada, the United States, Mexico, the Central American republics, the Bahama Islands and the Greater and Lesser Antilles are all parts of North America—more than 9,300,000 square miles (24,100,000 square kilometers)
Website
Central America
Southern portion of North America (pop., 2005 est.: 39,806,000). It extends from the southern border of Mexico to the northwestern border of Colombia and from the Pacific Ocean to the Caribbean Sea. It includes Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama. Some geographers also include five states of Mexico: Quintana Roo, Yucatán, Campeche, Tabasco, and Chiapas.
Website
Britannica Concise Encyclopedia. Copyright © 1994-2006 Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc. All rights reserved.
WordNet (Princeton University)
Central America
The isthmus joining North America and South America; extends from the southern border of Mexico to the northern border of Colombia 
Website
WordNet 2.1 Copyright © 2001 by Princeton University. All rights reserved.   More from WordNet 
AlexCovarrubias 05:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations to prove Mexico is not often included in Central America 

message: The article reads: "Its three main ethnic groups are Whites, Mestizos and African-Americans.[citation needed] "  Aren't these "races," not ethnic groups?  For example, there are many ethnicities within "racial" banner of "White" and "Mestizo," yes?  Peer Gynt 00:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Human Geography - demographics 

message: The link of the file s broken —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 189.135.59.220 (talk) 03:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tectonic elements photograph missing 

message: This entry used to list the states and territories by region:  One table for Northern America, one for Central America, and one for the Caribbean.  But now there's only one table listing all the states and territories?  Why this change?  I liked the three-table organization better.  That looked neater and it address the controversy over listing these three regions as one continent of "North America". Inkan1969 23:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with WilyD. AlexCovarrubias  ( Let's talk! ) 20:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If Jamaica, and Trinidad and Tobago had joined NAFTA as they originally had planned, I wonder how that would have changed arguments here. :-)  CaribDigita 01:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't begin to imagine that it'd have the slightest effect.  AFAIK, there's been no change in the use of North America(n) since I was born, and I predate NAFTA. WilyD 01:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What Happened to the Old Tables? 

message: North and South America are viewed differently across the globe, not the terms North America and South America, but the concepts. This should be noted in the article. There is no such thing as a relatively uncommon viewpoint, if we have a reliable source that 
*The word Continent in English comes with the inherent value that there are seven - to the point where I can cite a dictionary that says there are seven continents as part of the definition of the word.  The confusion your talking about is just an issue of inexact translation, not one of facts. WilyD 20:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Continent

message: This is a dispute about the nature of North and South America, should it be mentioned that in some parts of the world they are considered a single continent?21:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Comment: Continent

message: Hi, Chico.  The issue is that some Latin American countries consider the Americas to be a single "super-continent", with North America and South America being "sub-continents".  This view is noted in the article under North America#Usage of the term, but the main body of the article presents the view of the English speaking world.  In the same way, es:América del Norte and pt:América do Norte present the common view among Spanish and Portuguese speakers, describing North America as a subcontinent of the Americas, and not as a standalone continent.  As I explained on your talk page, all reliable sources in the English-speaking world define North America and South American as being individual continents:
*Britannica: "Continent: one of the larger continuous masses of land, namely, Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Europe, and Australia, listed in order of size. (Europe and Asia are sometimes considered a single continent, Eurasia.)"
*Encarta: "A continent is distinguished from an island or a peninsula not merely by greater size but also by geological structure and development (see below). The continents, in order of size, are Eurasia (conventionally regarded as the two continents of Europe, individually the second smallest, and Asia), Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, and Australia."
*Dictionary definition: "one of the main landmasses of the globe, usually reckoned as seven in number (Europe, Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Australia, and Antarctica)."
What this boils down to is that each version of Wikipedia presents the views of native speakers of that language.  In this sense, en.wikipedia.org is doing the same thing as es.wikipedia.org and pt.wikipedia.org. -- Jim Douglas (talk) (contribs) 22:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Already done; see the "Usage" section, which notes the different usage in Latin America. -- Jim Douglas (talk) (contribs) 02:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition of Continent 

message: Thanks to those who weighed in on this prior AfD.  Even though an apparent consensus supported the prior AfD in some way (and the article has been deleted), this has reared its ugly head again -- please peruse and weigh in.  Thanks! Corticopia 16:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Again ...

message: Administrator took a dubious decision. The result should have been no concensus, due to the fact that the votes were clearly divided. This deleted article was about the region of the Americas named "North America". All of the other regions within the Americas under the various geographical models to divide it, have their own article: Middle America (Americas), Central America, Northern America, Caribbean and South America. Please, read carefully the AfD page and the reasons provided to undelete the article. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 17:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Delete review of North America (region)

message: Alex and Corticopia, please both stop the current flurry of edit-warring on the "Usage" section - it isn't helpful.  Please discuss it here - if not, I'll report this to WP:3RR.  As there is a sourced quote (from Fowler) indicating "occasional" usage, it would seem appropriate to mention here, and should remain unless a consensus is reached otherwise. - David Oberst 23:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Precisely -- also note that the other editor involved has previously removed or reframed this information beforehand, after claiming to have checked it.  Really, what does this editor have to hide? or fear?  Unless a consensus supports excluding cited content (and there is none), there's really no reason to. Corticopia 23:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks David for your message. That information is already included in the article it belongs to, Central America. The section is clearly about the usage of the term North America, nothing else, there's no doubt about it. It is not necessary to mention other regions, since it is very obvious what the section is about. Fowler reference may say what the usage of CA is, but that's irrelevant due to the fact the section, again, is only about the usage of NA. If the information is controversial, then it should be debated first, not included and then debated. Corticopia is not a new user and he should know how to proceed. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 23:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I only want to add that this issue was already discussed (see above) several weeks ago. Back then, the quote was more or less the same Corticopia now wants to include (again). Since it was clear the section was about the usage of the term North America, the text was edited and no one opossed. It has been kept that way since that discussion, clearly indicating all the parts involved agreed (or the other editors would have complained and edited). Also back then, Corticopia took that information and added it to the article Central America, where it logically belongs. I really don't understand what he's trying to do by bringing this issue again. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 23:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Again -- this is a straw man argument.  The Fowler's entry pertains to "America" and, as we all know, its constituents and 'regions' are not mutually exclusive.  Nothing exists in isolation -- Central America is the southern region of this continent, and content from a USAGE guide about USAGE of these terms is completely appropriate.  Shall we remove notations of Latin American (Spanish) notions of the Americas and this subcontinente because they are not in English, in this English Wikipedia?  You and you alone falsely maintain that this cited information is irrelevant (others have been indifferent), yet you also want to list NAFTA as a possible alternate usage without reliably sourcing it -- particularly after your abortive forking of related content.  Continued confirmation bias.  And, this information was discussed beforehand -- after you removed the Fowler's reference after claiming to have checked it.  I will await comments from others.  Corticopia 23:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think your main problem is you don't understand that the section is not about the "usage of terms" but only about how the term NORTH AMERICA is used, not only in english. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 00:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And your main problem -- in concert with others -- is that usage for entities in this bona fide region of this continent cannot exist in isolation.  Other editors may choose to glaze over or be unwittingly hoodwinked by your nationalistic bias, but not this one.  Corticopia 00:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks for weighing in -- your edits are rather equitable. :) Corticopia 03:26, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Repeated usage reversion

message: In the first section the sentence "This main theory is complicated by the fact that Amerigo Vespuci had previously my bit will soon take over the New World." looks like it was partly vandalised, or else has parts of two sentences in it. Cloveapple 10:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  vandalism? 

message: I think we should focus on the first section and the "Demographics" in this article/ If you looks at featured article Antarctica you can see how well neat and organized it is with much vital information.
Im going to get started and improve the quality to turn this article into a A-Class article in a matter of days or hours. A Raider Like Indiana 15:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improvements 

message: Maybe this has been discussed above, but the picture showing 4 maps with a black background (caption: Sedimentary, volcanic, plutonic, metamorphic etc) leaves Greenland out of the picture.  The other maps in the article do include Greenland.  --  JackofOz 09:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Maps excluding Greenland

message: Section created to host discussion about the proposed move/merge
* of New World#Other names (1500–1616) for North America
* to North America#Usage
— Komusou talk @ 00:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Merge done after 7-day without opposition. — Komusou talk @ 07:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other names