Talk:Kyiv/Archive 3

message: Hello. I am living in Kyiv now and I am willing to take photos (Metros, streets, buildings, statues... whatever) but would like to know what is most needed. Is there a list that I missed and if not can we come up with one? Thanks. Greg.ory 16:11, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing, just wait for me to post now...:)-Kuban kazak 17:10, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am willing to take photos 

message: The Ukrainian one, not the Russian one. It's barely intelligible, at least to my ears. It seems truncated and somewhat muffled. Maybe someone would like to re-record it and upload a better and improved version. Peter1968 14:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes please, its difficult to make sense of the Kyiv/Kyiv issue without knowing how the latter ought to sound.  People tend to forget that simple convenience of pronunciation in the "host" language is an important issue in toponymy. Sumergocognito 07:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Kyiv sound-bite 

message: could someone please rearrange the galleries into logical groupings? (example: Cathedrals and churches gallery, Buildings gallery, Monumentsallery) or something similar?   WoodElf 06:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rearrange pix 

message: Correct me if I am mistaken, but shouldn't we include Kiev into the :Category:Holy cities as Kiev is listed here? —dima  /sb.tk/  00:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but under Eastern Orthodox, not Ethiopian holy cities.--Riurik 21:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Categories

message: I made a new table based on the found here.  It took some time recalculating mm > inches, etc, and changing the color codes, but in the end it looks good.  Numbers/calculations were double checked, and the table seems to be accurate and ready for everyone's scrutiny.--Riurik 18:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Climate table 

message: Could someone explain this one being categorized as a holy city (:Category:Holy cities) and being added to the List of holy cities as "Origin of Slavic Christianity"? Kiev has nothing to do with the "origin of Slavic Christianity", which emerged in Great Moravia and the First Bulgarian Empire in the middle of the 9th century, whereas Kievan Rus' wasn't Christianized until as late as 988. That said, I've reworded the thing as "Origin of East Slavic Christianity" and I'd like to see some evidence as to whether Kiev is really considered a "holy city" by the Orthodox Christians and why. No offence, but I wouldn't categorize a city that is not of universal Orthodox ecclesiastical importance as a holy city. If no convincing evidence is provided, I shall remove it from the category it doesn't belong to and remove it from the list of holy cities. Todor→Bozhinov 16:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm removing it. Todor→Bozhinov 10:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Restoring as an origin of East Slavic Christianity. "The supreme centre and for all time is Jerusalem. But there are other lesser historic centres - Rome, Constantinople, Kiev, Moscow."  --KPbIC 06:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holy city? 

message: I suggest that the picture galleries from architectural monuments and views of kiev be merged into a single Picture Gallery at the end of the article, before the references. --WoodElf 09:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture Gallery 

message: About the article, it would be nice to have a section devoted to upcoming constructions in the city.  — Alex (T|C|E) 05:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Upcoming constructions 

message: Having waged a blatant propaganda war on Ukrainian pages, Muscovian editors are significantly damaging non-political, but top-important, pages in the first place. Like this one.
I mean we almost live at Soviet partisans, bloody Red Army and History of Сhristianity in Ukraine conducting edit wars there for years. But just take look at city and oblast pages!!! A "Federal city"?! "The city istelf designated as its own raion"? Kyiv Oblast ODA Chief is chairing the Oblast Council? The Mayor is "traditionally appointed" as KMDA chief? While me and my friends are busy with propagandists, important pages are being gradually destroyed by good-intended amateurs!
Normal users have no other choice, but to mobilize ourselves, split our attempts and start reanimating/developing geo articles like Kiev. Of course keeping eye on existing edit wars as well.AlexPU 20:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not rant and formulate your propositions in some sort of intelligible form. --Irpen 02:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought I was clearly addressing normal users, not concentrated on Muscovian propaganda and intrigues. I.e., not you Irpen.AlexPU 11:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Easy, easy... Propoganda doesn't stick around long, just don't forcefully remove it. :-) Also, be nice to other Wikipedians. I doubt anybody is here to spread propoganda, and every article is a compromise between many people's points of view, which helps make it neutral. — Alex (T|C|E) 03:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Now I don't think it is necessarily that long.. If it could be expanded some more, including like you said Kiev tram info and bridges of Kiev, then perhaps it could be spun off the main article.. Lets go ahead and try it...  —dima/s-ko/ 21:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  On priorities again 

message: *Introduction: 
*History 
*major historical events that occurred in city 
*Law and government 
*Mayor or City Executive-- current, previous executives 
*representative body? 
*Geography 
*Physical geography (area, unique features) 
*Major Parks 
*Transportation 
*Economy 
*Major industries/products 
*taxes 
*Demographics 
*city population 
*racial/ethnic makeup 
*religious makeup 
*Sites of interest 
*Education 
*Public 
**Private 
**Colleges and universities 
*Sports teams 
*Notable natives 
*(Miscellaneous topics and similar lists) 
*External links 
The above is the correct format as per WP:CITIES. Please try to follow it. --WoodElf 10:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are lots of problems with implementing the proposed format and there is no need for all city articles to be alike. Different articles may be good each in their own way. --Irpen 22:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correct format 

message: Is it just me or this section is odd? It is strange, fringe and unwikified. It also carries the tl:expand which places this not so bad article in a whole lot of uncalled for categories. --Irpen 22:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure we even need a cuisine section. Other then food in Kiev being much more expensive for foreigners there's really nothing speicial about it (or at least nothing different from the food in other Ukrainian cities). Thanks, Bogdan 11:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cuisine section

message: Hey, we published a new webguide for kiev on kiev.com. We added a lot of sights, hotels, restaurants, hotels and so on. We also created a metro guide. Maybe this is an mentionable entry for the weblinks part. I guess it would help a lot of tourists. What do you think?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.203.6.144 (talk) 15:03, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add external resource? 

message: This section is in such a pity shape. I started on expansion. Please join. --Irpen 17:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While the Culture section, as well as some other sections could benefit from expanded content, I would not say that it is in pitiful shape.  However, I would be happy to take a look at your suggestions in time, and if I don't have too many problems navigating the rather arcane editing protocols of WP, offer my suggestions.  How will consensus be determined with regards to your hoped for edits? - --Volodia Tatlin 16:31, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Culture section

message: Can the page be completely unprotected as long as the page move privileges are kept fully protected, so to avoid any gung-ho renaming? The article has been protected for quite some time, I think. --Asteriontalk 23:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The page is not protected from editing. Join in. --Irpen 23:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is though semiprotected and has been for almost two months. --Asteriontalk 00:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Horlo has sort of promised not to make any edits related to changing Kiev to Kyiv. Actually he promised not to make any edits at all until the name was changed, and it does not look that is going to happen anytime soon. The current RM will be open until September 21, 2007, and it has been requested not to revisit for six months after that. 199.125.109.35 04:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unprotecting?

message: OK, dear friends, now it's time to get back to the article's improvement. This is a very good article and the WP:FA status is within a reasonable reach. So, I nominated it for WP:GA. Please help improving it when reviewers leave constructive suggestions. --Irpen 03:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a nice article, but can use more inline citations. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  14:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

text: The article is nice, but it should contain more inline references (preferably to secondary rather than tertiary sources) and should be checked for peacock terms. Besides, it is not comprehensive. The economy section doesn't make much sense and is effectively about industry. Economy is not based exclusively on industry. The section leaves many important questions unanswered (How much taxes are collected in Kiev? Where are they allocated?). The government section should ideally provide references to legislation (as the article Legal status and local government of Kiev does). The article lacks sections on crime, media, utilities (Where tap water is taken from?). As the article is likely to be expanded further, it is worth creating separate more specific articles for some large subsections (e.g. on transportation). Good luck. BTW, is the Eurovision succesion box really that important and necessary? Colchicum 15:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Good article candidate

message: Re, OED, we need to dig out the long history who and when added this or hit the library. Despite a PD, this dictionary does not seem to be online. 
I just found another old source: The American Cyclopædia, Appleton, NY, 1874  Google books link has an entry on Kiev. Perhaps worthy to add a citation. Also, the article is interesting both as a source on the city and of the time. I take a liberty to paste it in full here:
:KIEV, II. A city, capital of the government, on the right bank of the Dnieper, 270 m. N. of Odessa; pop. in 1867, 70,591. It consists of four parts, the old town, the Petcherskoi or new fort, both on steep hills, the Podol or low town, between the hills and the river, and the Vladimir town, which was added to the former by the empress Catharine II. 
:The old town, which in the times preceding the conversion of the Russians to Christianity, under Vladimir the Great, was the principal seat of Sarmatian and Russian heathen worship, now contains, besides several other churches, the cathedral of St. Sophia, a magnificent structure of the llth century, and the palace of the Greek metropolitan. The fort contains the great Petcherskoi monastery from which it received its name, and which, together with the bastions and walls of the place, and the glittering gilt and colored cupolas of the churches on the neighboring eminences, makes a strong impression upon the traveller who approaches the city from the other side of the Dnieper.. This division embraces the barracks of the garrison, the arsenals and magazines, the houses of the officers, the palace of the governor, numerous churches, and the renowned catacombs of St. Anthony, consisting of exc avations in a precipitous cliff on the banks of the river, which attract numberless pilgrims from all parts of Russia through veneration for the saints whose bodies are there preserved. Adjoining are the catacombs of St. Theodosius, which contain a smaller number of saints. The Podol, which is the commercial part of the city, is regularly laid out, and embellished with gardens. 
:Kiev has a large university, founded in 1834, to which are attached a library and cabinets of medals, zoology, mineralogy, and botany. There are also various other institutions of learning, of which the Greek theological academy in the Petcherskoi monastery is the best endowed and most frequented. 
:The manufactures and trade of the city are not important. Railways connect it with Moscow and St. Petersburg, Odessa, and Lemberg. A magnificent bridge, recently constructed, spans the Dnieper.
:The earliest history of Kiev is traced by some to the time of the Greek colonies near the N. coast of the Black sea ; others place its foundation in the 5th century. In the last quarter of the 9th century it became the residence of the princes of Novgorod. As the cap ital of Christianized Russia, it was adorned in the llth century with a great number of churches. After the middle of the 12th, however, it was deprived of its rank, and subsequently suffered by the devastations of the Tartars, the Lithuanian and Polish wars, the plague, and fires. After having been for about three centuries in the hands of the Poles, it was reannexed to Russia by the peace of 1667.
I hope this longish quote of PD text pasted to a talk page is not too annoying. Feel free to remove if it is. Just save the diff then. Cheers, --Irpen 09:43, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I found this Verkhovna Rada web-site. 
UKRAINIAN-ENGLISH TRANSLITERATION TABLE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 19 April 1996, an official Ukrainian-English transliteration system was adopted by the Ukrainian Legal Terminology Commission (Decision N 9). 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Use of the approved system is not mandatory for the transliteration of foreign names into Ukrainian. 
*Transliteration should be made directly between Ukrainian and English without the use of any intermediary languages. 
*Decision 9 9, in accordance with the Legal Terminology Commission s express authority, is binding only for the transliteration of Ukrainian names in English in legislative and official acts. 
*For brevity's sake, the system routinely allows for names such as the city of 'Zaporizhzhia' to be given as 'Zaporizhia,' 'L'viv' as 'Lviv,' etc. Also included is a short list of official spellings for miscellaneous terms: 'Ukraine' (no use of the article 'the'), 'Crimea' (as opposed to 'Krym'), 'Black Sea,' and 'Sea of Azov'. *In certain cases, 'traditional' forms may be shown in parentheses after the official form: 'Dnipro (Dnieper).' 
*In addition, apostrophe marks and softening marks may be omitted upon transliteration into English. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ukrainian letter English letter Note Example 
*А А - Алушта - Alushta 
*Б B - Борщагівка - Borschahivka 
*В V - Вишгород - Vyshhorod 
*Г H, gh Н-in most cases, gh - when recreating the combination “зг”  Гадяч - Hadiach;Згорани - Zghorany 
*Ґ G - Ґалаґан - Galagan 
*Д D - Дон - Don 
*Е E - Рівне - Rivne 
*Є Ye, ie Ye - at the beginning of words, іе - in other positions  Єнакієве - Yenakiieve;Наєнко - Naienko 
*Ж Zh - Житомир - Zhytomyr 
*З Z - Закарпаття - Zakarpattia 
*И Y - Медвин - Medvyn 
*I I - Iршава - Irshava 
*Ї I Yi - at the beginning of words, і - in other positions  Їжакевич - Yizhakevych;Кадіївка - Kadiivka 
*Й Y, i Y - at the beginning of words, і - in other positions  Йосипівка - Yosypivka;Стрий - Stryi 
*К K - Київ - Kyiv 
*Л L - Лебедин - Lebedyn 
*М M - Миколаїв - Mykolaiv 
*Н N - Ніжин - Nizhin 
*О O - Одеса - Odesa 
*П P - Полтава - Poltava 
*Р R - Ромни - Romny 
*С S - Суми - Sumy 
*Т T - Тетерів - Teteriv 
*У U - Ужгород - Uzhhorod 
*Ф F - Фастів - Fastiv 
*Х Kh - Харків - Kharkiv 
*Ц Ts - Біла Церква - Bila Tserkva 
*Ч Ch - Чернівці - Chernivtsi 
*Ш Sh - Шостка - Shostka 
*Щ Sch - Гоща -Hoscha 
*Ь ‘ (see commentary) Русь - Rus’; Львів - L’viv 
*Ю Yu, iu Yu - at the beginning of words, iu - in other positions  Юрій - Yurii;Крюківка - Krukivka 
*Я Ya, ia Ya - at the beginning of words, іа - in other positions  Яготин - Yahotyn;Iчня - Ichnia 
*‘ (apostrophe) “ (see commentary) Знам’янка - Znamianka 
Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 07:15, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Kiev in American Encyclopaedia, 1874

message: The article is a good, solid B-class article, but does not currently meet the Good Article criteria, and will not be listed at this time.
:GA review (see here for criteria)
#It is reasonably well written.
#:a (prose):  b (MoS): 
#It is factually accurate and verifiable.
#:a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
#It is broad in its coverage.
#:a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
#It follows the neutral point of view policy.
#:a (fair representation):  b (all significant views): 
#It is stable.
#:
#It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
#:a (tagged and captioned):  b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales): 
#Overall: 
#:a Pass/Fail: 
Most obviously, the article is largely insufficiently referenced. There are large sections of the article with zero sources, and many more with only one. **Everything** doesn't **have** to be cited for GA criteria, but at a minimum, the article should provide  inline citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons.
The reference citation list is also not formatted properly. Citations should include full citation information (e.g. author, title, publisher, date of publication, and date of retrieval if a web link is available). This is so that, if a web link should become unavailable (404 not found), readers can still verify the source through other means and the reference is not totally useless. I would recommend taking a look at WP:CITE for information on how to use inline citations in articles.
The article prose can be choppy at times, and somewhat difficult to read. Minor words, like "the", or commas, are often missing. A good copyedit would be recommended. It would help to review the manual of style as well.
The lead could use some work. It's not bad, but the third paragraph seems to go on and on about the history, and isn't very short and concise. Some of this material could go into the history section, and only the major facts should be included. The lead section should contain a good, clear, and concise summary of the article, and should almost be able to stand on its own without the rest of the article, if the reader chooses to only read the lead. It would help to review WP:LEAD for tips on improving this section. Oh, and the image in the infobox is copyrighted; I believe the copyright tag is good, but it doesn't have a fair-use rationale. I don't really understand what, "Should be PD as 'news' by UA law, but fairuse for now." means? Nice image, though! ;-)
I would recommend a better organization of sections, at least for the beginning. After the lead, start with 'etymology' (move the contents of 'city name evolution' to 'etymology', since that's what it is).  Then, put history, followed by geography (rename 'environment' to 'geography', and eliminate the first unnecessary subsection header there), then 'demographics', and then 'economy'. I'd put 'culture' after that, followed by 'sports' (move sports to its own main section, as it can stand on its own outside of culture), and then 'government', 'education', and 'transportation' at the end.
You might want to add some details on the cityscape (streets & neighborhoods) to the geography section.
What about talking about some of the local politics and the interactions of the mayor and city council with the citizens. BTW, who's the mayor? While it's generally unnecessary to list the entire members of the city council, if it's very large, some of the key officers are generally important. Maybe also include some information on national legislative representatives, too.
The demographics section looks good, and reasonably well referenced (although the ethnic group figures are unsourced). I also would find it interesting to have an explanation for the huge drop in population around WWII and its subsequent rise back to over a million in the decade that followed?
I would eliminate the 'modern kiev' title and simply call this 'culture'. The language really should be cleaned up, and there are no sources. Watch for weasel words and flowery language in the culture section. Things like, "hip nightclubs, classy restaurants and prestigious hotels". While it's still written in prose, a lot of the information on cultural attractions is really just a list in disguise, and more information could be added to spruce this up a bit. Also, what about including some information about any annual cultural events or fairs in the city? Don't forget to include sources and references for information in this section, either.
The 'tourism' section should probably be merged partially with the culture section, and partially with economy, if tourism is a significant aspect of the economy. Remember, wikipedia is not a tourist guide, and text should focus on the encyclopedic nature of information.
There's a couple of 'see also' links in several sections that link to categories, and not individual articles. This is generally discouraged and these 'see also' links should ideally go to a separately linked article. For example, if the culture section has a lot of info, link to See also: Culture in Kiev.
There are two galleries of images (culture and tourism) that really don't seem to contribute much to the article in its position, as they're just images. I would recommend taking the best images and using them within the text of the article, to help talk about various cultural attractions. If there are a lot of images, any that aren't used in the text could be added to a 'gallery' section at the end of the article, but before the 'see also' and 'references' sections.
Since there's not really that many external links, it probably isn't necessary to separate them into subsections. Also, any links that are used as inline citations, need not be linked at the bottom under 'external links', since they'll fall under 'references' instead. Review WP:EL for tips on including external links in sections and keeping the amount of linkspam down.
Hope this review helps to improve the article up to GA status. Please renominate it once the issues are addressed. Cheers! Dr. Cash 05:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Review

message: I would suggest removing the image galleries of the article (Kiev#Architectural monuments and Kiev#Views of Kiev) as they take up too much space and are bulky. I understand that all of these images are needed to the article, but let's not get every important image into the article.. Any comments? —dima/talk/ 19:43, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be better if we left the Architectural gallery and removed the "Views of Kiev" one. As architecture is it's own section while "Views of Kiev" are mere images, without much importance to the article. Regards, Bogdan що? 21:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I though about that option as well. —dima/talk/ 23:50, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will remove the "View of Kiev" gallery right now as there were no more comments about it. —dima/talk/ 19:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Image galleries

message: Regards, Bogdan що? 16:55, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: First, you need to show that the Russian name in Cyrillic alphabet is relevant (either because this Cyrillic name is used by at least 10% of English sources, or that the place was used to be inhabited by Russians). Second, read the policy completely: "Alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section". --Greggerr (talk) 08:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the Russian name is relevant, as is the Polish name, given the influence from those two countries on the recent (last few hundred years) history of the city. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 06:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian name 

message: Ladies and gentlemen, the section looks amusingly absurdous for me. Kiev, as with most settlements in Ukraine, is supplied with electricity by the national grid (like it was redundantly stated in the section). To the best of my humble knowledge, the "grid" means that no particular power station is relevant more than the others. Not to mention the "power supply in the form of natural gas, piped from..." :) Thus, the whole section is probably an original research.
On the other hand, we may want to describe the energy industry in the city. Which would lead us to a pretty different picture: in fact there are several power stations inside Kiev, owned by the city community and even foreign investors. Even that stinky trash-burning company is a minor energy producer, hence the "Energiya" name :) So we might, or might not, reflect all this in the main city article. Anyway, Economy of Kiev is the ultimate place for such information. I hope to get there some day. Thanks, Ukrained (talk) 00:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible OR in [[Kiev#Power_production|"Power production" section]]

message: The whole "Economy" section of this article desperately needs expansion and updating rewriting within current size. I'm sure that significant number of "new" Kievans have never even heard of all those Soviet industrial giants :) But they must be very fond of booming construction industry, PFTS stock exchange, or at least Troyeschyna bazar :) Ukrained (talk) 00:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, the section needs a major rewrite and revamping.. If you want, go ahead and fix it up.. —dima/talk/ 23:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Economy

message: I think the definite article "the" should be removed from the following captions:
:-The St. Michael's Golden-Domed Cathedral, 1998 reconstruction.
:-The St. Andrew's Church
:-The St Volodymyr's Cathedral (and for consistency, maybe put a full stop {.} after the St)
Could a registered user look into that please?
Thanks, 60.242.0.245 (talk) 10:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. Thank you for mentioning this detail. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 09:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Architectural monuments

message: The line "In the Ukrainian language itself, the name of the city was pronounced Kiev until only about 100 years ago." does not match the source (http://www.infoukes.com/faq/kyiv-2/), where the author states "The spelling Kyiv (Kyyiv) has been used in Ukrainian for only about the last century".
This is a statement about the English spelling, not pronunciation. BTW, I do not discuss it the (original) sentence makes any sense whatsoever or the author is an expert enough to be quoted about the issue.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.254.93.99 (talk) 18:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a statement about the Cyrillic spelling, unless our anon is claiming that Ukrainian used the Latin alphabet in 1900. I don't see where English comes into it; we never have used Cyrillic. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Septentrionalis, I think you are actually agreeing with this editor, as he or she was saying that the source was interpreted incorrectly.  As you are registered (and the article is semi-protected), do you want to have a close look and see if the statement with source (http://www.infoukes.com/faq/kyiv-2/) should be modified or cut, as it has nothing to do with pronunciation?60.242.0.245 (talk) 07:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Both done. Thanks for bringing this up. --Irpen 07:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I appreciate that.60.242.0.245 (talk) 04:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Actually, the captions of the images still need to be fixed.  Almost all of the leading articles constitute bad English grammar.  I pointed this out at Talk:Kyiv#Architectural_monuments.60.242.0.245 (talk) 17:08, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. Thank you for mentioning this detail. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 09:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, Ev.60.242.0.245 (talk) 13:45, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  incorrect atribution 

message: what is the point of having the russian name if there is a link to the name in other languages article (which russian is in)?  Ostap 20:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume you mean in the introduction? The Ukrainian name is also shown, and it is also in the other languages article. I would assume it is because Russian and Ukrainian are the main languages of Kyiv/Kiev, and it is common to give the name of a city in its native/most widely-spoken languages (as well as English) in the introduction of an article. Regards, EJF (talk) 20:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, no - it is common to show what the average English speaker would find least surprising. Just do a google search for "capital of Ukraine", ignore all of the invitations to find a mate, and you will see that Kyiv is more common. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  russian name 

message: This article reads like a travel brochure.  I'd fix it myself, but I'm on the road.79.188.24.234 (talk) 16:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Prose needs toning down

message: says this article. Should this be mentioned in this article or is it to detailed information? — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 13:16, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kyiv apartments fell in price twice 

message: Since when Kyi, Schek, and Khoryv became Variags??? Who claims that? That is a bad example of a theory. The name of statue in Kyiv commemorates the Founders of the City, not Variags. Why are you putting a wrong name of the statue and reflecting false impressions? That is crazy! First of all the name of the statue has no relevance to Variags and second of all only a few historians relate Kyi, Schek, and Khoryv to that ethnicity stating that it could be false. So why won't simply put the real name of the statue instead of self-conscienciously renaming it. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 19:29, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Variags??? 

message: A lot of energy has been spent discussing namingI'd suggest instead that we put the proverbial stake in the ground and agree to work toward the necessary improvements in the article to achieve GA/FA. The easiest is to look around for other articles about cities which are rated GA or FA. 
Outline of Kiev
#Environment
## Geography
## Climate
#History
#Government
##Subdivisions
###Formal subdivision
###Informal subdivision
#Demographics
#Modern Kiev
##Culture
###Sports
###Architecture
###Architectural monuments
#Transportation
##Local transportation
##Suburban transportation
##Railways
##Air transport
##Roads
#Sites of interest
# Tourism
##Attractions in Kiev
#Economy
#Education
#City name evolution
#International relations
##Twin towns — Sister cities
# See also
#References
#External links
Outline of London, GA
# History
# Governance
## Local government
## National government
# Geography
## Scope
## Status
## Topography
## Climate
## Districts
# Cityscape
# Demography
## Ethnic groups
## Religion
# Economy
## Architecture
## Parks and gardens
# Society and culture
## Accent
## Leisure and entertainment
## Literature and film
## Museums and Art Galleries
## Music
## Sport
# Transport
## Railways
## Buses
## Air
## Roads
# Education
# Twin cities
# See also
# References
# Further reading
# External links
Outline of Johannesburg, FA
# History
# Government
# Crime
# Geography and climate
# Demographics
# Cityscape
## Architecture
## Parks and gardens
## Residential Areas
# Economy
## Retail
# Communications and media
# Music
# Suburbs
# Tourism
# Sports teams and stadiums
# Transport
## Airports
## Freeways
## Taxis
## Mass transit
### Trains
### Buses
#### Bus Rapid Transit
# Education and Culture
## Museums in Johannesburg
### AECI Dynamite Factory Museum
### Adler Museum of Medicine
### Apartheid museum
### Constitution Hill
### Hector Peterson Museum
### James Hall Transport Museum
### Madiba Freedom Museum
### Museum Africa
### Origins Centre Museum
### Bernberg Fashion Museum
### South African National Museum of Military History
### Zoology Museum
# Sister cities
# Notes
# References
# See also
# External links
Perhaps we can reorder the sectionsfor example, do geography and climate really belong at top?and then work from there. Also, if we do decide to communally apply ourselves I'd suggest archiving most of the talk here and leaving only the threads that apply to the original GA review. Kiev is more than deserving of our efforts here. While there's been progress, there's also been contentiousnessand we have not had a specific goal to work toward. I think the Johannesburg outline would do us well and help organize our efforts to address areas where the current article is deficient in content. Anyway, my thoughts having viewed Kiev over quite some time now. PētersV <SMALL>      TALK</SMALL> 18:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project to achieve GA/FA? 

message: How about a Template:Capitals of Ukraine? Interesting for foreigners I presume! — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 11:19, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that there has been only one capital of Ukraine--Kyiv.  That is, unless you count all the temporary towns where the twentieth century revolutionaries lived for a week or two.  Ukraine as a country has only existed since 1991.  The pre-Mongol "country" wasn't Ukraine, it was Kievan Rus, that is, the predecessor to all the East Slavic peoples, not to modern Ukraine.  The Princes of Kiev merged into the Grand Dukes of Moscow.  (Taivo (talk) 15:44, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

text: . Be bold! It's very difficult for moskal. =)) -- TarzanASG (talk) 17:05, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Even if some representative of Ukrainian aristocracy migrated to Moscow back those days, most of them stayed in Kyiv or place nearby in Ukraine. The word "Ukraine" dates back to as earlier as spring 1187. It is the well-known fact and not knowing it is a great ignorance of Ukrainian history. --- Wikipidys (talk) 7:28, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Baturyn was a capital for a bit longer then a week and it was not in the 20th century. Again, study the history. --- Wikipidys (talk) 7:31, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Principality of Kyiv was not merged with Dukes of Moscow, now you're simply inventing.... Check your facts. How about Dukes of Trakai? Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 04:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think that Baturyn and especially Hlukhiv can really be classified as capitals. You might as well call Zhytomyr and Vinnytsia them as well. During the times of the Cossack Hetmanate maybe Chyhyryn can be categorized as a capital, but for most of the other times the real capital always stayed Kyiv. Kharkiv and Lviv can be put in that category. But all the other cities and towns just really cannot be considered. And Kharkiv was not a capital since 1917, but rather 1919 when the USRR was declared. In 1917 Kharkiv, technically was part of the Russian Republic according to the Intruktsiya of Kerensky, although was claimed by the Central Rada.Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 04:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Template:Capitals of Ukraine]] 

message: *Topic moved to Talk:Kiev/naming#Reminder_when_adding_new_text Chaosdruid (talk) 05:15, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Reminder when adding new text

message: Love the collage on the infobox. Excellent work! Keep it up... Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 04:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Love it too ! — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 14:28, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good job!!! 

message: Hi all
The page is becoming a bit too much like a gallery - lots of pictures all over theplace making the text difficult to read.
Do not forget that some people may read this on a small screen and to keep going left and right to follow the text would probably get frustrating.
I have tidied up some of the pics and removed some from the huge Architectural monuments section - two were repeat views and one was the exact same file from higher up the page.
If anyone is picky and decides they don't like all the images they could easily decide to delete a lot quoting "not a gallery" so I thought it best to adress the issues now :¬)
Chaosdruid (talk) 18:45, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures - gallery - problems 

message: Is it me, my computer or the file ??
This does not say Kyiv, Kiev or anything like it when I play it...it sounds like "be-iv" - anyone speak Ukrainian and has a microphone >????
Chaosdruid (talk) 18:59, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I gotta agree.  It sounds like someone clipped this little bit out of a longer recording so it's not clear at all.  --Taivo (talk) 01:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ogg file for pronunciation 

message: Who wrote the history section? It's a complete raving. Starting from the truly fantastic «Hungarian rule», including that groundless «Khazarian outpost», and finishing with those strange words about «captured by Muscovites in 1230» something. That's a real gibberish, delirium.
:"At least during the 8th  and 9th centuries Kiev functioned as an outpost of the Khazar empire. A hill-fortress, called Sambat (Old Turkic for "High Place") was built to defend the area." - The Khazars didn't speak Old Turic, but a dialect of Oghuric, so that would be Sambatas and not Sambat.120.22.62.21 (talk) 23:58, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please can you add some citations, quoting page numbers of books for various facts in the part you added.--Toddy1 (talk) 23:22, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  The exact source is dr. Viktor Padányi: Dentu-Magyaria, p. 325, footnote 15. Futhermore, the word kő means stone, the non-Slavic origin is also supported by Vernadsky but he recognized it as a Khazar word meaning rock. However, the keő, keőv, keve forms are in written because the letter "ő" is very special and was mostly phonetically written in latin texts as "eve". The works of Constantinos Phorphyrogenetos and i.e. Ibn Kordadbeh are useful supports that Vernadsky's so-called Rus-Kaganate could not exist the place and time as he suggests. (KIENGIR (talk) 10:23, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please can you add the citation into the article.  The format for this is  the citation..... --Toddy1 (talk) 11:55, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: Babi Yar is part of the history of Kiev.  The site is no longer just outside the city.  Some of the ravines are now a park.  There are also some memorials across the road from the park.  Further on from the memorials are both communist and Christian cemeteries.  I think Babi Yar should be mentioned in the article, and a photograph of the big memorial to the Jews murdered there should be in the article on Kiev.--Toddy1 (talk) 10:04, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Babi Yar

message: What do you say if I prepare a table of historical economic data to complement Economy section that will look like this? 
Historical Economic Data
                                  	2004	2005	2006	2007	2008	2009	2010
Nominal GRP (UAH bn)              	    	    	    	    	    	    	
Nominal GRP (USD bn)              	    	    	    	    	    	    	
Nominal GRP per capita (UAH)      	    	    	    	    	    	    	
Nominal GRP per capita (USD)      	    	    	    	    	    	    	
Real GRP growth (%)               	    	    	    	    	    	    	
Monthly Wage (USD)                	    	    	    	    	    	    	
Unemployment Rate (%)             	    	    	    	    	    	    	
Retail Sales (UAH bn)             	    	    	    	    	    	    	
Retail Sales (USD bn)             	    	    	    	    	    	    	
Foreign Direct Investment (USD bn)	    	    	    	    	    	    	
Invest in knowledge (talk) 23:40, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a good idea, except that the rows should be the columns, and the columns the rows.  That would make it easier to accommodate data of different dates.--Toddy1 (talk) 20:29, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

text: The main advantage is the the numbers are on the same line as they are in the table making it much more easy to read when in edit mode Chaosdruid (talk) 01:05, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Totally agree. Will prepare the table soon. Invest in knowledge (talk) 07:39, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Economy

message: Is that table correct ??
In 10XX the population was 100,000 and dropped to 15,000 by 1647 ?
Chaosdruid (talk) 00:52, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical populations 

message: A chat on Facebook is not a reliable source for anything on Wikipedia.  The posters on Facebook can claim to be anybody, but there is no control whatsoever on who they actually are.  A mass murderer in Trenton, New Jersey can claim to be the CEO of The Economist and there is no way to tell otherwise.  You cannot use a Facebook chat as a source for anything whatsoever, especially something as potentially contentious as the usage of Kiev or Kyiv.  --Taivo (talk) 08:06, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Taivo, please stop misrepresenting my case. This has nothing to do with a Facebook "chat". It's a facebook Discussion on an official page for the Economist. There is nothing in Wikipedia guidelines stating that no information from Facebook whatsoever can be used. This is very interesting inside information and deserves to be heard. An official company page on Facebook is a reliable source.
-- Sanya3 (talk) 09:28, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it is not since there is no way to verify that persons posting in a Facebook chat are who they say they are.  Wikipedia works on verifiability and verifiability on Facebook is virtually ZERO.  --Taivo (talk) 13:58, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

text: Facebook reliability is zero and Facebook verifiability is virtually zero, no matter what page you are pointing at.  There is also no way to know whether a page is "official" or not.  Anyone can post anything on Facebook without any checks or balances.  Facebook is not a reliable source.  Before posting your comment in the article you need to build a consensus for adding it.  You have gained no consensus at this point.  If you continue to violate WP:BRD, then I will report you for edit warring.  --Taivo (talk) 14:01, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Facebook is not a reliable source. Find something from the official website or the paper or the source does not pass muster. Chaosdruid (talk) 15:26, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Facebook chat is not a reliable source 

message: Shan1631 (talk) 04:12, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please post what it is that you'd like to change, then repost the edit request template.  Banaticus (talk) 10:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from Shan1631, 19 February 2011 

message: I am a PhD student at Carnegie Mellon University researching ways to improve a reader’s understanding of Wikipedia history by putting it in context. I recently completed a prototype tool called ‘Pivot’ that brings edit history to the sentence level rather than line-by-line, edit-by-edit as the current interface does. As I continue development, I’d really like some feedback from active Wikipedians as to what works, what doesn’t, and how it might be used. Since one of the articles I've pre-processed is this one, I was wondering if any regulars would be willing to give it a quick look and give me some comments.
To use the prototype, you can visit this external links that layers the tool on top of the article: Kiev article tool
When you load the page, on the right hand side you’ll see four colored bars that match up with the scroll bar. These become more saturated if sentences in the region of the page have more edits (red), more contributors (yellow), a greater percentage of reverts (green), or were edited more recently (blue). Clicking on those bars will highlight the text, darkening sentences that have more edits, etc. so you can identify interesting areas to explore. Once you’ve picked out an interesting sentence, click on it to open up the history for that sentence. A new frame will pull open (some scrolling may be required thanks to a pernicious bug, sorry). In that frame you can see the most recent edit at the top of the list, and then previous edits going down into the past, along with editor names and comments. Words that have been added in an edit are highlighted in green. In turn, you can highlight the sentences that a contributor has made edits to in that window.
Would you be willing to give me some comments either through my talk page or an anonymous survey? I’m particularly interested in whether you think the tool helped you uncover the sorts of information I mentioned earlier, if you see any use for it in your daily editing tasks, and what you think could be improved.  Are there particular situations that this tool would really help you out?
 
If you know of any other Wikipedians who might also be willing to help, I'd appreciate you linking them in. You can find out more about me on my user page and personal home page. I'm more than happy to talk more about this research on my talk page or by email, and thank you for your time. JeffRz (talk) 01:45, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Try a Prototype Wiki Interface