Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Archive 6

message: I haven't read the archived talk pages, but it strikes me that the story of Jeremiah Duggan is a really notable omission.  Duggan's death did quite a bit to expose LaRouche's organization to intense media and police scrutiny.
:Yes: the police scrutiny found that the LaRouche organization had nothing to do with it. The media scrutiny followed the usual format (see ). --Weed Harper 15:42, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Or it would, if LaRouche had ever made such a transition. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:18, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  See Talk:Lyndon_LaRouche/The_Herschelkrustofsky_List#Steered_to_the_right for more of this. Martin 18:25, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOVishness 

message: This article has a long history, as you can see from the five volumes of Talk archives. It was edited and re-edited by various parties until June of 2004, when it was seized by a gang I'll call the Empire Faction, because the ringleaders are AndyL, a Canadian who writes a lot of admiring articles about British Commonwealth/Imperial functionaries, and Adam Carr, an Australian who writes a lot of similar articles, but more importantly is on the staff of Australia's most outspokenly fascist Member of Parliament, Michael Danby. Adam deleted the Lyndon LaRouche article altogether, and replaced it with a laughable smear job (the presently protected article is a slightly toned down version of same.) Any attempts to edit the smear job were met with revert wars, leading to protection of the article, at which point I asked for arbitration (see evidence). The arbitration accomplished nothing, finding very anticlimactically that the contending factions ought to be more polite to one another. Arbitrator Fred Bauder put it this way: "We don't try to arbitrate the content of articles, for example by doing a lot of research regarding Lyndon LaRouche and trying to figure out what's true and what's not, or even whether this source or that source said what about him." (see Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Lyndon_LaRouche)
Meanwhile, the page was unprotected. I made two efforts to edit it, and gave up, because the Empire Faction would immediately resume the edit war, and I was hoping that arbitration would do something other than what it ultimately did. The page, with minor modifications, remained a huge manure pile of propaganda, reeking with POV. On August 5, an anonymous user writing from the Philippines (203.215.75.149) attempted to edit out some of the offal, at which point another edit war was launched, leading to another protection.
I have become somewhat fatalistic about the process; I have contributed a list of the most glaring lies, which I will reproduce below. I also refer the reader to Significant Ommissions from the Current Version. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:20, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  For those of you just joining us 

message: -> Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List
Each one of these inventions or propagandistic insinuations constitutes a violation of Wikipedia policy; (see Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not). --Herschelkrustofsky 21:20, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm reworking this, because each time you repost the same accusations, shorn of the fact that they've already been discussed, which has the effect of rewinding the discussion to the start again. This does not progress things. Martin 17:24, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: John Kenney acknowledged some points on the original list, but nothing changed on the article. As I have noted, I don't attempt to edit the article, because Adam 'n' Andy immediately go for revert war. Andy, to his credit, did remove three or so of the cited items, and I promptly re-worked the list. Andy's edits were the only significant changes before the recent protection. So, the list will change as the article changes. I'm not sure precisely what your objection is, but I don't mind you structuring the talk pages. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:30, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: I've moved some of them to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues to respect the 32KB limit. Just as a suggestion, try picking just one of your issues, the one you think is most important, and try to get that resolved. Then, go on to the next one. Your list will always be linked at the top, so the reader will easily be able to find out a complete list of your criticisms, but it's impractical to solve them all simultaneously. Martin 21:40, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: My "one" issue is that the entire article is a malicious, propagandistic misrepresentation of its topic, in violation of Wikipedia principles. The points on the list are just evidence to support that thesis. The arbitration committee has made it clear that they have no intention of arbitrating the truth or falsehood of articles, and Adam 'n' Andy seem to have an uncanny knack for getting their version of the article protected, so I am limited to raising my objections on the talk page. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:30, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I see, Martin, that you have put quite a bit of work into this, and I think that it was done fairly and honestly. There are a few problems; I reworded two subject headers that I think missed the point of what was being contested. Also, you use the original list, when some of the points of contention have been re-worded without making them less false or misleading; my more recent lists reflect the new formulations. But I know you want to keep the earlier discussion in context. You undertook a complicated task, and I think that you did a pretty good job. --Herschelkrustofsky 01:14, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you: I try my best. I maintain my suggestion that you focus on one objection at a time. Martin 00:36, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Updated list of wild fabrications and propagandistic slurs in the present version

message: I think that this assessment of LaRouche is far more honest than Dennis King's:
"U.S. economist Lyndon LaRouche ... was among the first personalities
to propose a debt moratorium for the developing countries in the middle of the seventies, in polemics against the International Monetary Fund and other supranational institutions, promoters of a neocolonialist system based on usury. LaRouche, one of the most controversial personalities on the international scene, since 1994 has underlined that the present financial system is practically bankrupted and that it must be replaced by a system based on a radically new concept. His economic forecasts, particularly of the financial crashes of 1987 and of 1998, have proven to an ever-larger public his qualities as an economist. LaRouche sees American  history as the primary battleground of a clash between those who intend to continue the anticolonial tradition, particularly by Franklin Delano Roosevelt and John F. Kennedy, responsible for the creation of nation-states -- whose roots have to be found in European and Renaissance history -- and those forces behind the Pax Americana which de facto corresponds to the supranational oligarchical interests, historically centered in England."
--from La guerra del petrolio. Strategie, potere, nuovo ordine, by Italian oil expert and historian Benito Li Vigni, Rome, 2004.
--Weed Harper 15:59, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Who made this translation from the Italian? Do you have a source for the publication of this translation? Can you find an assesment of LaRouche's stengths as an economist written by an actual economist? Martin 20:40, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: A More Honest Assessment

message: This whole effort--the article, the edits, the rewrites, the endless arguments and recriminations--are a colossal waste of time and one that will not benefit the users of Wikipedia at all. LaRouche doesn't deserve this much hand-wringing and source-checking and verifying and evidence. He certainly doesn't deserve a Wiki article that gives detailed treatment to his personal biography and ideas. LaRouche is not a politician; he is not a scientist; he is not a scholar; he is not a philosopher. He is nothing but a crank who repeatedly runs for president and who has apparently managed to fool a few foreign dignitaries, institutions, and newspapers who didn't know any better to give him the time of day. A Wiki article on LaRouche need include little more that this, and perhaps also that so far as American society is concerned, LaRouche signifies nothing except a guy whose followers accost them at train stations with incomprehensible political tracts. Period.
Ah yes, but there's also a detailed article for Alois Hitler, the father of Adolf Hitler. Marcus2 19:39, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  What a waste of time 

message: I have placed the following request with User:Fred Bauder:
Lyndon LaRouche: Further to this matter, since I have been censured and penalised for personal attacks, I think it is now appropriate that I ask you to make an additional ruling that User:Herschelkrustofsky be required to refrain from calling named individuals "fascists," particularly those who are not Wikipedians and not present to defend themselves, unless there is evidence that they belong to a fascist organisation or have espoused views generally accepted as fascist. I refer to his repeated description of an Australian Member of Parliament, Michael Danby, as (to quote just the most recent example) "Australia's most outspokenly fascist Member of Parliament, Michael Danby." This is untrue and grossly offensive, and may also expose Wikipedia to action for defamation. I think fairness dictates that if I am to be censured for calling Herschelkrustofsky a slanderer, he should be required to cease being one. Adam 00:21, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Herschelkrustofsky's slanders