Talk:War of Attrition

message: As of 28/08/18 the article reads: "Following the 1967 Six-Day War, no serious diplomatic efforts tried to resolve the issues at the heart of the Arab–Israeli conflict.". This is entirely false. Israel offered the Sinai peninsula and the Golan heights to Egypt and Syria respectively in exchange for peace, an offer supported by the US and the USSR which Nasser refused. It was essentially the same proposition that Sadat would later accept. See the last few minutes of the following documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UKuxPyrpx0 (the strange title of the youtube video is no indicator of the quality of the documentary, which contains testimonies from the likes of foreign secretary McNamara, Abba Eban, and several Egyptian generals). I hope this error is swiftly corrected, as I feel this fact is essential to the understanding of the situation in the middle East from 1967 to 1979.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.214.158.137 (talk) 04:16, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: A few sound-bites stitched together. Nothing at all that is citable here. Zerotalk 10:38, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: "No serious diplomatic efforts"

message: Egypt tried to re-capture Sinai, but failed. Instead, they fought a long-lasting and expensive war near the Suez Canal. The egyptian casualties were much higher than the israeli, although they recieved help from the Soviet Union, amd Jordan and PLO attacket Israel at the same time. At last, Egypt gave up, and they returned to Status quo. So who won? Israel. The succeeded in protecting Sinai from the egyptian invasion, and Egypt failed in causing the israelis high casualties. Although the egyptians also claimed victory, Israel was the real victor. Anyone who disagree? --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 11:57, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looks more like draw to me. 88.100.47.221 (talk) 03:36, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The only way Israel could have lost this war, would be by loosing post-1967-territory to Egypt. Israel did not only halt the Egyptians from re-capturing Sinai, but also inflicted them huge casualties. I highly favour this being an Israeli victory.--Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 22:56, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems you want every war Israel's been in to be an Israeli victory. No one cares what you "highly favour", find a reliable source that states it to be an Israeli victory and then you may have some basis for this claim. What you're doing is original research. ElUmmah (talk) 15:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

text: It is already stated in the article; "Egypt was determined to regain Sinai, and also sought to mitigate the severity of its defeat.". --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 18:23, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: First off, regain doesn't necessarily mean recapture. Second, I'm telling you for the third time, get a RELIABLE source that EXPLICITLY states that the war was an israeli victory, and then raise the issue again. I'm done here. ElUmmah (talk) 23:05, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who won the war? 

message: "On June 27 around eight Egyptian Su-7s and MiG-21s attacked Israeli rear areas in the Sinai, shooting down a Mirage and capturing its pilot." How exactly PLANES managed to CAPTURE a downed pilot over pilot's own territory?!? 88.100.47.221 (talk) 03:06, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obviously untrue information 

message: Under the "Timeline" heading there is a reference to Superpowers that I found misleading. I'd previously deleted this reference, but a dissenting contributor felt I was mistaken in my belief that it referred to Israel and Egypt, two nations that I don't believe were ever considered 'superpowers', in that it represented the US and Soviet Union. I'd accept that but for the fact that there is no preceding mention of the US or Soviet Union in the "Timeline" segment. I ask that someone more knowledgeable than myself review the article, and determine if my understanding of its context is correct. In any case, to the casual reader, it is confusing, and either a referring statement needs to be added before "Superpowers" or the word should be removed as inaccurate. I've chosen not to edit this again myself for hopefully obvious reasons. Thanks.--Dphoenix1701 14:29, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  War of Attrition:Timeline 

message: At the very beginning of the article, it reads "(the war) was initiated by Israel as a way to prevent recapture the Sinai from Israel". At the Beginning of the timeline it reads "The war began in June 1968 with sparse Egyptian artillery bombardment of the Israeli front line on the east bank of the canal.".
So who started the war?
:Egypt. They wanted Sinai back. Thier tactic was simple: Egypt has more manpower than Israel so they'll use some of their man power to weaken the Israeli forces guarding the border by shoting them day after day. Then Egypt will use it extra power to take Sinai back while Syria will try to take the Golan Hieghts back. In Yom Kipur War they failed doing so for some reason, never understood what it is.--Tharbad 01:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I had the same question.  If Egypt did indeed initiate the conflict, shouldn't the intro be changed to reflect this? I'm far from an expert, I'd appreciate clarification from someone with better subject knowledge. --NoahElhardt (talk) 18:42, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who started the War? 

message: Should there not be an entry for the phrase "war of attrition" rather than just for this particular conflict?
:Yes, I think there should be. When you think of a war of attrition, you should think of World War I. Unfortunately, as it stands people have to enter a disambiguation page via a hyperlink at the top of the page and then click another hyperlink, Attrition warfare.--189.62.170.155 (talk) 01:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use as generic phrase 

message: In 2003 IDF has changed one attribute of the war: the time.
According to that info this war started on 7.1967 and lasted until 8.1970.
The part of the which is mentioned in this article is the third one; the lasted from 7.1967 till autumn 1968, the second, which was a cease-fire, from fall 1968 till spring 1969 and the third as mentiond in the article.
External link (Hebrew).
--Tharbad 01:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Information 

message: Please fix this page, and lock it, it looks like the same guy did this all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82abhilash (talk • contribs) 23:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vanadlized!!!!! 

message: The article states there were a little over 350 dead Israeli soldiers. Israeli Governmental Figures, The Jewish Virtual Library, and all other sources I've seen say there were 1,424 dead Israeli soldiers during the war. I would also like the article to note the 100 dead Israeli civilians.
The The Jewish Virtual Library also shows ~2,000 wounded soldiers and ~700 wounded civilians on the Israeli side. Perhaps "more that 3,000 wounded" should be replaced with the more detailed "2,000 wounded soldiers. 700 wounded civilians." Besides the fact that this would provide a more detailed breakdown, it also has a source, which the original article does not.
I would make the edit myself, but I'm a new user. Aside from the technical challenges, I'm not sure what I'm at liberty to edit without first consulting the discussion board.
     Also I can't see where it says anything about the 10,000 dead on the Egyptian side. I looked in the reference and it doesn't give a specific figure.
I m dude2002 21:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualty Report 

message: i think some of the more complex consideration should be included in the main text.
:: all of this would be an original research (bordering on propaganda) and thus unsuitable for the wikipedia 88.100.47.221 (talk) 03:31, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  some strategic considerations 

message: was the war named after the generic phrase or vice versa?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkdewey (talk • contribs) 04:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Merriam-Webster, the word 'attrition' dates to the "14th century". The Oxford English Dictionary gives the etymology of 'attrition' as "ad. L. attrtin-em, n. of action f. attrt-: see ATTRITE and -ION1. The theological sense 4 was earliest in Eng." Sense 4 is "An imperfect sorrow for sin, as if a bruising which does not amount to utter crushing (contrition); ‘horror of sin through fear of punishment, without any loving sense, or taste of God's mercy’ (Hooker), while contrition has its motive in the love of God. (A sense invented by scholastic theologians in 12th c.; the earliest in Eng.)" The earliest quotation mentioned in the entry is "c1374 CHAUCER Troylus I. 557 Thou..wailist for thi synne and thyn offence, And hast for ferde caught attrition." Here are all quotations for the relevant definition 2. b. ("Mil. The wearing down of the enemy's strength and morale by unremitting harassment, esp. in phr. war of attrition."): "1914 Sphere 21 Nov. 181/1 This is a war of attrition, in which each side tries to wear down the other. 1915 KITCHENER Memorandum in Lloyd George War Mem. D. Lloyd George (1933) I. xii. 435 The end of the War must come through one of the two following causes: (1) by a decisive victory..or (2) by attrition. 1918 E. S. FARROW Dict. Mil. Terms 45 Attrition, in a military sense, the act of wearing away the enemy's strength, increasing his mortality list, and lowering his morale. 1919 HAIG Desp. 21 Mar. (1919) 326 The rapid collapse of Germany's military powers..would not have taken place but for that period of ceaseless attrition. 1927 W. S. CHURCHILL World Crisis 1916-18 I. ii. 45 The only method of waging war on the Western Front was by wearing down the enemy by ‘killing Germans in a war of attrition’. 1958 Listener 13 Nov. 791/3 Nor did Montgomery, unfairly scornful though he is of generalship in the first world war, disdain tactics of attrition at times." The military definition of "attrition", as well as the term "war of attrition", are strongly associated with W. W. I, and I personally have never heard of this term in relation to the Arab-Israeli Conflict in anything but the most informal sense. All the Oxford English Dictionary quotations are from  and do not include bolds, italics or underlines.--189.62.170.155 (talk) 23:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  generic phrase 

message: Israel had a total of 721 dead - 127 civilians and 594 soldiers. (sources - hebrew wiki, taken from idf stats itself)
you should change it  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.113.178 (talk) 12:49, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualty Report 

message: To what fact does including Jordan and PLO stand?
The war was between Egypt, and Israel, any other actions were not by planning by Egypt, and cannot be considered part of the war. the PLO Olympic attacks for example cannot be included for sure. Also the Soviet participation was in form of air defense i.e.e engaging IAF planes attacking Egypt, not participating in Egyptian raids. The first and last engagement between the soviets and the Israelis was an Israeli victory were three out of four soviet-piloted aircrafts were shot down, according to Gen. El-Shazly. So also the soviets did not have great impact of the war. --( ΡHARAOH  The Muslim  18:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Belligerents

message: The "Egyptian Front" section contained material unrelated to the subject of this article, with lots of details about events that really don't belong here. This article still has a lot of room for expansion, it's a shame so much of it was taken up by content that belongs elsewhere. Poliocretes (talk) 22:11, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  1973 War material removed 

message: I noticed that many sources in this article are attributed to ACIG. ACIG is a blog and open to editing from anyone with a user ID and password. It does not comply with WP:RS and edits which are sourced to ACIG should be removed. In the alternative, new sources for these edits should be found.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 15:40, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: ACIG

message: The link "Sabena Flight 571 (Operation Isotope)", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabena_Flight_571 (in the template generated content at the end), is a redirect (to Sabena Flight 571 hijacking). --Mortense (talk) 11:35, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Redirect, Sabena Flight 571

message: Concerning this battle, four sources are provided but I've found serious source distortions, omissions and errors. First, Herzog notes on page 196 that the Egyptian force was driven off but this is not reflected in the edit. Second, neither Dunstan nor Shazly reference the number of Egyptian commandos deployed during the battle nor do they note that 10 Israeli tanks were utilized (@ noted page references). The term "repeated attacks" is not employed by either source. Moreover, Shazly refers to a battle in August so it's not even clear that he's referring to the July 1, battle. If he is, he's off by at least a month, calling into question the reliability of his entire statement.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 17:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: July 1, 1967 battle, Ras-el Esh

message: This particular war took place along the Suez canal. Unless Syrian/Iraqi/Jordanian/Cuban/Palestinian involvement on this particular front can be sourced, they should be removed from the infobox regardless of border clashes occuring simultaneously. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 18:57, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Participants 

message: The article cites 900–1000 PLO members participating in the War of Attrition but 1828 killed and 2500 captured. Obviously these numbers don't add up.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.85.195 (talk) 22:05, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  PLO Killed/Captured 

message: Benny Morris is a biased Israeli, this break Wikipedia's neutral sources requirement! you consider soviet estimates "biased" while you rely on Israeli historians for Israeli casualties?!? Benny Morris claims 10,000 Egyptians dead, but the Egyptian chief of staff says 2,800, Morris exaggerates Egyptian losses and minimizes Israeli losses everytime, he's a biased ISRAELI JEWISH HISTORIAN!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.41.82.133 (talk) 07:14, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Benny Morris 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I am under the impression that the War of Attrition was declared by Egypt, and that clashes with the PLO and Jordan and Syria were an entirely separate matter from the war.--RM (Be my friend) 11:26, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should Jordan, Syria, and the PLO be included? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Zeev Maoz talks about the War of Attrition of 1969-70 (2006, p. 36). This article says July 1, 1967 – August 7, 1970. What is correct? Uglemat (talk) 23:08, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  War started in 1967? 

message: Attrition warfare is the term used to describe the sustained process of wearing down an opponent so as to force their physical collapse through continuous losses in personnel, equipment and supplies or to wear them down to such an extent that their will to fight collapses. Infinitepeace (talk) 08:29, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add to the beginning of this article most people don't know what war is 

message: 10000 Egyptians were killed in that war? Of course, 10000 is mentally and logically incorrect Army Chief of Staff Saad El-Shazly will not align himself with the Egyptian army He said the exact number of Egyptian soldiers is 2882 meaning in name As for the idiot Benny Morris says 10000 how is that a very large number? He is an Israeli Jew who takes sides with his people every time. It never happened that the Egyptian army lost 10,000 men in any war until the defeat of 1967 we lost 9,800 men, according to Al-Gamsy sources and the October war the Egyptian army lost 6000-9000 How can we lose 10,000 soldiers? You have to wipe this cloak from Morris and not take it as a source for anything Hamed2139 (talk) 05:12, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  10000 !!!!! 

message: The writer, Yossi Ozard, creates an excellent story about a photographer named Amnon who makes memorial films for families.  Amnon is asked to make a memorial film about the father of the family, who was killed during the War of Attrition as a "tiger" in its expiring decades.  "Tigers" is a nickname for the reserve commanders who volunteered to serve in the canal outposts for several months.  They formed the backbone of the leadership in this war.  Amnon, who was a former spokesperson for the Israeli army and was sent to the channel as an activist in Gopnik to document the fighting in the strongholds along the same canal line, is exposed to daily bombardment in appalling conditions in which fighters, separated from the state, spend most of their time.  From their time in the shelters under .. at the hands of the Egyptians and they suffer many losses every week.  Excursions from the outposts were mostly fatal, and there was no patrol that was not hit or killed by the bombing, sniping, and ambushes that the Egyptians deployed along the canal. Ever ground (talk) 23:27, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Moon Over Suez: Between the Novel and the Reality of the War of Attrition Yossi Ozard 

message: Please add Kuwait's 17 fatalities from April-June 1970 on the Egyptian front according to 
, Kuwait commemorates the return of 16 soldiers from the Yarmouk Brigade
to the "Casualties and loses" section of this article. Wikiuser552 (talk) 21:50, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now: www.kuwait-history.net appears to be an internet forum which qualifies as user-generated content and is probably not a reliable source for this claim. If the same claim can be verified by independent reliable sources, please post those here and re-open the request. --N8wilson 🔔 02:03, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2022 

message: What Is With The Equipment & The Weapons Of The War ?.Can Someone  Add That To That ? 188.136.9.8 (talk) 11:01, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weapons And Equipment 

message: The article says that Cuba took part in the Egyptian-Israeli War of Attrition, this is wrong. This article cites as a source Efraim Karsh's "The Cautious Bear". However, that book is clear when, in its chapter 4, states the following: "The Syrian-Israeli War of Attrition (1974) was the first case in which Cuban ground troops took an active part in a local war.". I am unable to edit the article, but please correct it. 95.247.230.107 (talk) 18:42, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cuban participation - Huge mistake 

message: Add kingdom of libya Samira819 (talk) 14:38, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: That article appears to be about a different conflict, the Six-Day War, which already mentions the involvement of Libya. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 15:37, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @OuroborosCobra oh I didn't know talk page could be old but uhm so I saw this and I had to see but there is no Kingdom of Libya in the six day war ? Jamalie7 (talk) 21:00, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

text: @OuroborosCobra oh and I found a book on Amazon saying the got involved so do I add them or nah Jamalie7 (talk) 21:03, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

text: @OuroborosCobra oh and I found a book on Amazon saying the got involved so do I add them or nah Jamalie7 (talk) 21:04, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: We need to see the source to know that it's a reliable source and is talking about this war, and not a different one. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 21:35, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kingdom of libya was involved https://ar.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/حرب_1967 

message: What is the reason this articles uses MM/DD/YY format, which is US specific, rather than the internationally used DD/MM/YY format? Wikipedia's article on date format, , shows that DD/MM/YY is the appropriate one for Egypt and other the other mentioned countries. Perhaps someone with editing access could make the necessary change to DD/MM/YY. Danke. 93.204.178.203 (talk) 16:35, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Its a WP:LANGVAR issue, whatever was first used is generally kept absent a very good reason to change it. I dont think MOS:TIES really comes in to play here, but dont really care either way. nableezy - 17:29, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date format 

message: I would like to edit the result because:The War of Attrition was fought between Israel and a coalition of Arab states led by Egypt from 1967 to 1970
. The war was centered largely on the Suez Canal, and it involved fighting between Israel and Egypt, Jordan, the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), and their allies
. The war was characterized by large-scale shelling along the Suez Canal, extensive aerial warfare, and commando raids
. The Arabs managed to win the war of attrition by wearing down Israel and providing Egypt with the opportunity to dislodge Israeli forces from the Sinai Peninsula, which Israel had seized from Egypt in the Six-Day War of 1967
. The war was inconclusive, and no territory was exchanged, and there was no obvious victor
. However, Egypt gained a diplomatic victory in persuading the Soviet Union to provide military assistance and in moving SAM missile batteries, which Egypt used in the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, close to the Suez Canal
. The long-term effect of the war of attrition has been to make Israel more suspicious of international peace proposals and Egypt more precise in its strategic military planning
So I would like to add that it was indeed an egyptian victory 2603:6010:1C00:325:2A25:2FBD:51C:491 (talk) 06:49, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 23:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 October 2023 

message: Hello TechnoSquirrel69, There's a mixing up. The Cuban expeditonary force took part in the war of Attrtion in Syrian enclave in 1974 not the war of Attrtion 1967-1970. The only source provided in this article (Karsh, Efraim: The Cautious Bear: Soviet Military Engagement in Middle East Wars in the Post-1967 Era) cited that and I qout "Cuban armed forces played an active role in the Syrian-Israeli war of Attrtion (1974). Other sources like (Ra’anan, G. D. (1981). The Evolution of the Soviet Use of Surrogates in Military Relations with the Third World, with Particular Emphasis on Cuban Participation in Africa. Santa Monica) stated that "Fighting on the Golan Heights front continued until May 1974, by which time an Israeli counterattack had largely defeated the Cuban-Syrian tank forces. The Cubans reportedly suffered casualties of approximately 180 killed and 250 wounded". See Foreign interventions by Cuba.--Amr F.Nagy (talk) 21:38, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey Amr F.Nagy, other than declining the edit request above this section, I have never touched this article and have very little background on its topic area. If you believe a change needs to be made, please compile the reliable sources that support your point (with page numbers, if necessary) and submit a edit request of your own. Feel free to leave a message on my talk page if you have any other questions. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 22:07, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello again, I already provided two reliable sources, one of them is the only source that the article uses as a proof of Cuban involvment in war of Attrtion (1967-1970), while the source itself cited that in p. 1961 that it's the war of Attrtion in Syrian enclave in 1974 (part of Yom Kippur war). It's not about of view, it's about an obvious mistake of mixing up two conflicts. Amr F.Nagy (talk) 22:19, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing Cuba from Belligerents section