Talk:Christoph Luxenberg

message: This is a controversial subject, and this article must be careful not to show support nor disparrage Christoph Luxenberg. Words should be chosen carefully so as not to present his claims as anything more than untested theory. It is important to use technical language in places, because Luxenberg is using philological and text-critical methodolgy. To gloss over such things for an easy read is misleading. As Luxenberg's book has not yet been published in English its only official title is in German: the English title is an unofficial translation of it. --Gareth Hughes 17:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep it simple and to the facts and lets not get all wrapped up in analysis paralysis , be bold is the directive we follow in wikipedia and keep it readable for the readers who are do not have a clue as to what philolofical and text-critical methodology means. This is English wikipedia thus we do not emphasize titles in German, we emphasize titles in English. There is nothing controversial about this subject, its an article stating facts about this topic of the article.--CltFn 18:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not the title of the book: it has no English title. Your version is full of factual errors, overplaying the impact of the work and says nothing of how Luxenberg comes to these conclusions. I have real concerns about he accuracy of the article as it stands, which is less than your quibble over long words. --Gareth Hughes 18:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well go ahead then and list his methodology , save me the work since that would be the next step in the article. I have sourced various statements and provided direct quotes, I have provided references. But If you see an error , then fix it.I am trying to write an article that provides information on this author , something which is glaringly lacking in the earlier versions. Why is that? Are we so careful that we chose not to develop the article?--CltFn 18:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I disagree with your revert Gren. We should be trying to build this page up with information and it is not very helpful to keep it to a hard to understand bare minimum. In any case I am doing a major rewrite of the page and will post it when I am done.--CltFn 03:55, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue is that the reviews were greatly redundant and made the page less readable.  Having more text isn't necessarily more info... or not that much more info when you keep quotes.  Quotes should be integral and when they're not they should be paraphrased. gren グレン ? 05:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Gren , I do not see why quotes have to be paraphrased. A paraphrasing is essentially an alteration of the original statement and prone to misrepresentation. A quote is , well like they say straight from the horse's mouth. Lets take the middle translator out of the picture and get the straight dope. Its a far more accurate that way.--CltFn 05:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see the 'dumbed down' version has been slipped in again: reverted. Two obvious points that have not received attention: the alt version uses the words 'disproves myths', which is misleading as the book presents a new theory rather than replacing old ones; also, the English name of the book was written by me (it is not the book's real name, the name is in German, and should appear before the one I made up). I feel the alternate version reads little more than popularist anti-Islamic reporting. I agree wth Gren that this article should not be turned into a newspaper column. — Gareth Hughes 16:42, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  How arrogant of you to call the version I added as dumbed down, should I called your version dhimmied down? If you want to make positive contributions to the article then go ahead , otherwise refrain from deleting other people's contributions.--CltFn 17:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you deleted the article that other contributors had written with your own. My complaint is that your version is factually incorrect. You use the wrong name of the book, and you say that it disproves the traditional views about the Qur'an. It challenges them, but does not disprove them. You seem to more interested in arguing against my person than on the actual content of the article. You have raised no explanation to support your version at all. It would be interesting to know what you meant by your use of the word dhimmi above. — Gareth Hughes 17:21, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

text: CltFn, your version is dumbed down.  It is not an insult to you, but your version does put it on a level that can be understand by just about anyone without clicking outside links.  The problem with that is that you lose some clarify.  When you remove "philology" but say developed over a series of authors it leaves ambiguity as to whether it's an archaeological or literary criticism from the get-go.  Also, as Garzo has stated before, there is no book called The Syro-Aramaic reading of the Qur'an.  There is a book called Die Syro-Aramäische Lesart des Koran written by Luxenberg which can be translated into English as the former.  This is a valid distinction.  If there was a translation of the book into English it may be different... but as of now that assertion is plaint incorrect.  (We also italicize title, not bold them).  Garzo keeps the most important Luxenberg quote but leaves out quoting the silly summary reviews which add nothing by being in their own words.  Our words can be better and Garzo's are.  I am reverting but I'm trying to add some compromise... CltFn if I missed any information from those quotes that's not redundant add it in but not the whole quote which repeats the main idea which we have already mentioned many times.  If there are important cited facts you feel we have left out then mention it here.  But the language of philiology and all is very important to this being a good article.  That's why we have a link to it... so it can be understand by those who don't right away. Thanks. gren グレン 19:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversial subject

message: Wansbrough and Crone in the see also?  They were great critics of hadith.  I'm not sure they really fit since their in a different vein. gren グレン ? 15:49, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do see the connection more now... with Hagarism and all.  But, I'm still not sure they're see also-able.  I suppose I don't care so much. gren グレン 19:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also 

message: Gren asked me to look at this article, since I've been doing a lot of reading in early Islamic history, Quranic studies, etc. I find that I agree with Gren -- not because he's my friend; anyone who knows my work on WP knows that I'm notoriously cantankerous and unpredictable -- but just because the longer, more careful version is a better statement of the facts. 
The only change I'd make -- and I'm not sure that I'm up to doing it this morning -- is to make some mention of Fred Donner's argument in Narratives of Islamic Origins that the Qur'an as we have it MUST be early, because its concerns reflect those of what we know of the earliest Islamic community. If it had been assembled after the First and Second Islamic Civil Wars and the Abbasid revolution, it would have reflected that troubled history -- and it doesn't. I find it a compelling argument and think it should be here to offset Luxenbourg's thesis. 
We should probably also have links to academic assessments of Luxenbourg's work. I think I have a few of the ones available online bookmarked -- I'll add them when I have the time and energy. Zora 20:28, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate your attention to this article , Gren , Zora and Gareth.I have reorganized it a bit to make it clearer withouth really changing your edits. Obviously we are going to have to develop the article, and I will be making further contributions to the text as I find the time.--CltFn 13:31, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which version? 

message: C, that is NOT a direct quote from Luxenberg; it is a quote from a Newsweek article purporting to explain Luxenberg's thesis. The article messed up! It said something untrue! The fact checker failed! But don't blame that on Luxenberg. I'm sure he'd be horrified. Zora 05:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps , its moot at this point but anyway as you can tell there is a lot more to this article that has yet to be added. I am sure we will be discussing this again after more material is added , some of which I am working on .--CltFn 06:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unwritten language  

message: I think The Syro-Aramaic Reading Of The Koran should be merged into this article, because it's in a bad shape, and because I believe there is not much more to tell about the person behind the pseudonym Christoph Luxenberg than the fact that he wrote Die Syro-Aramäische Lesart des Koran. ----Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 17:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree , it should not be merged. As in many such situations , we have articles on authors and we have articles on individual books, thus the way to go is to develop both the author pages and also develop the book pages. That you might believe there is not much to tell about CL , is an opinion which I do not share with you.--CltFn 04:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm talking generally as I have no specific knowledge of the issue (I don't even speak German or Arabic). The principle  of distinguishing authors from their works is sound.  But it's less useful here because the author is anonymous, so we don't have any information, biographical or whatever, apart from the works.  I don't know how important are the 2 later pieces by Luxenberg listed in the bibliography; it's not clear how much of the article's information (if any) is from those rather than the main volume.  If those pieces are nothing more than elucidations of the original, or comments on the ensuing debate, than a merger is no harm, because "Christoph Luxenberg", as a public idea, would amount to little more than his one major work.  If Luxenberg reveals his identity, or writes another magnum opus, we can always de-merge. jnestorius(talk) 03:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  merge from [[The Syro-Aramaic Reading Of The Koran]] 

message: to those who don't know neither Arabic nor Syriac and with already preformed opinions and prejudices. Those are so many and it is no wonder that such an article is so long. Any one witha good background in semitic languages can refute most of what is in it. The rebuttals against this thesis are plenty but they are no where to be found in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marwan123 (talk • contribs) 06:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is utter nonsense. Luxenberg's theory is long attested to by many both before and after the publication of his thesis. The fact that it was taboo to go into in great detail (e.g. verse Crone and Cooks allusion in Hagarism) does not mean it is unreliable thesis 'easily rebutted'.--Ari89 (talk) 07:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luxenberg's thesis appeals only 

message: * Luxenberg, Christoph (2007) -- The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran - A Contribution to the Decoding of the Koran. Berlin: Verlag Hans Schiler. 2007 . 85.178.72.83 01:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  English translation now in, apparently 

message: I'll try to move the stuff that is concerned with the "the syro-aramaic reading..." into the article about that book, and keep in this one the stuff about the author, as is the the ususal practice on WP. I may change wording here and there, but I promise to keep all external links, and all the pro-and contra poits intact. Please don't complain or revert until I'm done (2 hours?). Thanks. Azate 16:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I see you invested some effort on this, the article is now been reduced from what was a very informative article on the author to barebones, leaving mostly trivial info about the pseudonym and hardly any coverage of his work and research.  Hopefully you are not done with your editing and you will restore essential content that is now lacking in the aricle.--CltFn 16:59, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was moving over everything about the "syro-aramaic-reading" to the article about that book. Everything that is specifically about the book doesn't belong here. I'm not yet done with the other article. Please wait a while until you interfere. Nothing will be lost. Just distributed differetntly. Azate 21:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see that you are trying to seperate the contents of the book from the authors page but there is a lot of information about Luxenberg which merits to be covered on his page, such as professional position ,  how he came into prominence and the general theses of his work that he has propounded not only in his books but in many articles and interviews. The author's page should certainly present an overview of his work. Furthermore you have blanked out content which is not part of his book such as a a quote from an interview as a scholar conducted on him , not about his book. Let us know when you are done with your changes and we will see where things stand --CltFn 21:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I re-introduced your amendment to the intro. If you find that interview you mention (and it source, of course) just add it back. I see no reason why we shouldn't be able to work in parallel. Unfortunatly there was a lot of material here that was obviously a quote, but didn't supply a reference. Azate 21:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  De-merge 

message: The introduction is faulty in some ways. Firstly, the identity of Chr. Luxenberg is known. His name can be found on various websites. He's of Lebanese (Christian) extraction and not a professor. He has worked as a lecturer for Arabic at the University of Saarbrücken. You could have met him as recently as the 24.06.2008 at the Auswärtiges Amt in Berlin, Germany. While I respect his desire for anonymity, he (or at least some of his interviewers) falsly claim(s) for him the title of professor among other things and this is simply a lie. If one uses anonymity in order to pretend to be what one is not, I think the right for secrecy is forfeit.
Simha (talk) 12:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction and identity 

message: Please don't put back the German scholar bit in the introduction. Such a claim cannot be ascertained for a pseudonym, and there are scholars who deny it.--Wadq (talk) 12:21, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  German scholar or pseudonym 

message: "More importantly, Professor Jansen published supporting evidence for the essential correctness of Luxenberg's analysis on his web site: http://www.arabistjansen.nl/rawwahnaahum.pdf"
Do you mean "Luxenberg has suggested that Quranic zawwaǧnāhum (Q 44:54 and Q 52:20) might be a misreading for rawwaḥnāhum. These three Safaitic inscriptions may convince someone who... has doubts about this suggestion that the reading rawwaḥnāhum ... at least deserves serious consideration."?
As for "More importantly, Professor Jansen published supporting evidence for the essential correctness of Luxenberg's analysis on his web site: http://www.arabistjansen.nl/rawwahnaahum.pdf", see these quotes:
:One may agree with L.’s new reading of this s¯urah, even though doubts remain on some points, such as his claim that Arabic ¤x¬õ a‘t.¯a ‘to give’ should be derived from Syriac Ytyaayti ‘to bring’. Not only is this particular proposal linguistically problematic, it also fails to lead to a better understanding of the Qur’¯anic text, since the meaning of this Arabic verb is fairly straightforward. The same can be said for L.’s reinterpretation of s¯urah 96 (al-‘alaq,
:one is inclined to disagree with some of his conclusions, such as his interpretation of the last word of this s¯urah, ìnj¨HM wa-qtarib, which he translates as ‘and celebrate the Eucharist!’ But the verb ìnj¨H iqtaraba ‘to draw near’ cannot simply be identified, as L. does, with the form ì›nrÆ taqarraba, which is actually the Christian Arabic term for celebrating the Eucharist.
:L.’s ‘representation’ of the state of affairs is incomplete.
:Sometimes it seems that when L. has found a pair of cognates in Syriac and Arabic, he simply declares the Arabic word to be a loan from Syriac, even when from a historical-linguistic point of view this is not plausible.
--Wadq (talk) 00:20, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert of Thomas Milo's edits 

message: I have a hunch it might be the German-Lebanese scholar Theodore Khoury, a Lebanese German who knows the same rare extinct languages that Luxenberg does. But I have strictly no proof of this and it is only a very vague hypothesis.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.53.106.158 (talk) 08:54, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Christoph Luxenberg is not identical with the very respected and visible German-Lebanese scholar Theodor Abdel Khoury. This can be confirmed by all scholars who have seen Chr. Luxenberg. Prof. Khoury publishes and has published extensively under his own name.Simha (talk) 11:57, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Theodore Khoury

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The opinion of Mr Abid Ullah Jan is quoted. How is that relevant, i.e.: what qualifies Mr Abid Ullah Jan to be quoted here? His Wiki presence seems to be self-created. Brings to mind another quote, namely the reworking by Smokey of their hit song Living Next Door to Alice: "_ _ _ is Alice?" Arminden (talk) 21:45, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is Abid Ullah Jan, what qualifies him to be quoted?