Talk:List of slang names for poker hands/Archive 1

message: I added the following note to the article: "This list is for jargon that is in common usage. Do not add terms used in your home game or that you personally think are clever.  If you add a term, please add a reference supporting its inclusion here in the edit summary or this article's discussion page.  Additions that are unreferenced will be removed."  Maybe some folks will think that is too strong, but I think it addresses both issues here: removing entries people don't bother to explain, and getting some source evidence to prevent this from being a hopeless pile of "original research". 2005 23:51, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the requirements are too strong at all. Wiesenberg's dictionary  is a great, authoritative reference - just what this article needed. I agree, if a term isn't in the reference, a pretty strong case needs to be made to justify inclusion. --Toms2866 02:36, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Note

message: I reformatted the page into tables. original version I think the tables make the page look a little less haphazard. I've also moved a fair number of terms from the Poker jargon page (and removed them from that page!).--Toms2866 20:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reformatting

message: There's too much made-up stuff here. I removed the more obvious items, but I imagine there's still others. - Furrykef 02:03, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Two part answer. Yes, there's always some ass who thinks his cutsie name should get display. As a higher-ranking amateur (would be pro if I had the bankroll ;( ), I can probably call myself an authority when it comes to real names and cutsie names. (And by cutsie, I am, in general, speaking of names of a derogatory/racist nature. D.valued 05:25, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Made-up stuff 

message: Look, there's too many hands put out-of-sequence. The list, as it currently stands, is largecard-smallcard. E.g. 6-9 is 9-6. T-J is J-T. The reason for this is because it's easier to locate the hand in question in this order, especially because ace-x almost always has a name tied to it, and 2-x rarely does. D.valued 06:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Consistant formatting

message: I suggest this article be merged with Texas Hold'em Hands. Both contain the same info, save that the other article includes more math and more focus on the better-known hands. D.valued 05:25, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge Discussion

message: This entire article seems to suffer from being rather difficult to verify.  Without comprehensive external sources, there is no way for a single editor to determine whether an unfamiliar slang term has just been made up, or is simply of a local or regional nature.  For that matter, there is no clear criteria to establish what level of usage a term should have before it warrants inclusion.  I would assume that something used solely at a single regular game should not be included.  As for just how to go about establishing such a consensus, I have no idea.  
As a side note, there are several rather obscure connections in the list which could benefit greatly from an explanation. --Trystan 17:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's real? 

message: I won't clutter the actual article, but I always thought Ace-Jack should be called "Action Jackson".  Therefore, I lobby for it here.  Barkman 15:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The question is not what one thinks a hand should be called, but whether or not a casual term has become part of the informal language of poker. --69.232.118.14 17:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lobby for a Name (Just for Fun Section) 

message: Just seemed funny to me that in the process of cleaning up, you deleted the three names I have actually heard in casinos for this hand (houta hand, can of corn, mississippi slick) and kept one that I've never heard used (michael jordan).  But obviously a lot of anonymous posters are putting vanity names on here, and I understand you need some kind of method to filter the entries.  But relying on web search apparently exludes some names that are common in use (in my experience) and subject to vanity names that have found themselves onto some other website.  BTW I have seen other websites use the name "hooter hand" for 3-2 but this is a corruption of the original name "houta", named for a mississippi dealer.  Keep an eye out for houta, I think I saw him dealing at the wsop last year; if you see him then you can "verify" the listing Kymacpherson 13:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Add terms back in if you think they're in common usage. If you think something is obscure, feel free to remove it. I am by no means an authority on the slang terms.--Toms2866 14:14, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for putting them back.  Nice work on the page too, the tables look great. Kymacpherson 05:04, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  3-2 

message: I added an entry for The Sik.  If you don't believe that this is a real hand, check out http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/games/lessonBeginnersHoldEm.  This hand became so popular on Pokerroom's forums that they once created a promotion designed around it.--Mickeyg13 03:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Sik 

message: I added Walking Sticks back in for 77.  I hear this quite frequently, and have actually never heard them called "Hockey Sticks." SmartGuy 18:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll agree that 'Walking sticks' probably belongs on the list.  —Kymacpherson 17:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Walking Sticks 

message: Somebody at IP 170.69.248.21 seems hell bent on including "Mullets" as a nickname for 77.  I've never heard of this, but enough with this damn edit war already.  It's been added and then reverted at least 5 times recently.  If the person at 170.69.248.21 can provide some kind of source for this name, please do so here. SmartGuy 19:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  77 - Mullets? 

message: Someone should should create an ambiguation page or something. Pocket Rocket is the name of a toy.--Architect1 22:10, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ambiguation 

message: The "computer hand" term predates the many post hoc justifications that have been created for the name; it's origin is simply as stated--the author of a bad simulation once recommended it, suggesting that perhaps it ranked high because it made lots of one-card straights. It was pointed out to him that that's not true and that the sim was clearly bogus, but the name stuck as a joke.  It has since been pointed out that it also happens to be pretty close to a 50% equity hand head up, but this too was after-the-fact and not part of the etymology. There is no "real" reason for the name of the hand, other than the early joke--it is just what it appears to be--junk.  I'll try to track down references for this, but until I do, please don't change it without a specific reference for your etymological claim. LDC 00:05, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was trying to find something definitive in light of the back-and-forth edits.  Nothing that I would consider a solid source, but what I could find provided the "median hand" theory.       One source mentioned but doubted a "faulty simulation" origin in addition to the "median hand" origin.
I have additional links to support the change to "average starting hand" [] [].  I had originally read it in a poker book (may have been the Cloutier & McEvory book) I'll need to look.  This []contradicts that so maybe it was a faulty computer simulation.  Regardless the part about making staights is way off.--Jbgiunta 14:46, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: So let's get to the bottom of this Q-7 story. In the late 1960's a group of players were learning to play Hold 'Em, my crazy ex-husband Ron Goll, Laughing Allen, Bobby Brazil, Norm Nixon, Bill Pennington, Sonny Murray as well as others. My Ex was a school administrator, the director of data processing. Remember back in those days, no home computers. Ron was trying to figure the game out and claimed he ran a program. As the story goes, he concluded that of all the two card starting hands that will NOT stretch to a straight, the Q-7 has more possibilities of ultimately making a straight than any two other cards. As I understood it at the time, this was the basis of the "computer hand". Only problem is, as I see it, it can't be true. A Q-7 can only make eight straights. A 10-5 (for example) can make ten. Does any one know where Laughing Allen, Bobby Brazil, Norm Nixon, Bill Pennington or Sonny Murray are? Just Curious, if one of them remembers more to this story.  While you are out and about in your poker travels, please ask and let me know.  Inquiring minds want to know.
The whole point, in other words, is that the "most straights" theory was of course as ridiculous as the "median hand" theory, but the fact that the computer sim somehow picked that hand gave it the name--specifically to ridicule the programmer of such an obviously broken program.  LDC 18:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that secondary sources should be discounted, particularly when compared to something as unreliable as an equivocal Usenet post.  I think the best approach is just to reflect the uncertainty in the article, stating that most sources proposed the "median hand" explanation, while two (your post and  mention an unclear or doubted "most straights" theory.--Trystan 22:48, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Cardplayer did a story on this years ago.  The mythic junk doesn't relate to anything.  "Marge's husband" did a simulation that showed it made the most straights, which of course was nonsense then and now.  The Cardplayer article predates their online edition by several years, but if anyone wants to bother finding a copy they can go to their office.  For the purpose of this article: it does not matter.  The hand is called the computer hand. That is the slang, and that is all that needs to be mentioned.  Absent the Cardplayer interview with Marge, just having computer hand in the article is accurate so I'm making the entry just that.  Of course if anyone wants to further discuss it we can do that too, but there is no reason this term needs an "explaination". 2005 01:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't know why you think the median hand theory is bogus. It is called computer hand because mathematical simulation has shown that the hand is the statistical 'average' you will be delt. Even the most basic computer poker books should mention this. People seem to think the name preceeds the computers! So it was named computer hand before computers.... riiiight.... Dacium (talk • contribs) 04:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Computer hand 

message: I have heard "beer hand" and "beer nuts" in use for 7-2 in several places, so I wouldn't call it a vanity entry--I've reinstated it.  --LDC 19:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you be able to provide a reference to a reputable poker slang dictionary?--Trystan 22:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've found some for "beer hand", but I can't locate any for "beer nuts".--Trystan 01:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Being found on the Internet is a bare minimum.  More than 100 references online should be a basic criteria.  Just because someone heard or said some slang name doesn't make it notable, or even interesting.  We should not strive to add original research to this article, and in fact each contributor should be sure to not do that.  Just because someone knows some slang means nothing.  If you can't find at least one major source, or multiple minor ones, don't include a term just because you have heard it.  The Wiki guidelines on that are awfully clear.  There are plenty of terms that are used widely by people, that I have heard literally thousands of times that don't have enough external sources to list.  Likewise a hand might be known by a certain name somewhere, and be used by hundreds of people, but it will have zero relevance to anyone else outside that one casino.  This article is not for clever or forgotten terms.  It should be a list of widely sourced slang.  Anything that is not should be freely removed from the article, and if someone tries to put it back in, the burden is on them to add at least one authotitative source to the edit notes or discussion page. 2005 22:14, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As 2005 said, being found on the internet is not necessary, nor ideally sufficient, for inclusion in the article. It's merely a feasible place to check when an entry is added without a reference.  Citation to a reputable poker author would be ideal, but some sort of reference is required to allow the editors who monitor this article to distinguish genuine, common poker slang from the many made-up entries which are added daily.--Trystan 02:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Unfortunately, having users as references doesn't allow the reader to verify the information in the article.  It also makes it impossible to resolve disputes between two contributors who disagree on the inclusion of a term.--Trystan 02:54, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: It's not really meaningful to speak of "worst hand" in all contexts in Texas Hold'em.  7-2 got its reputation because it generally comes out on the bottom of simulations of 10-handed limit holdem, but you'd get a different answer if you simulated short-handed games or tournament games or no-limit.  --17:18, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  7-2 

message: I removed the statement about "nuts" in the Hold'em section.  The term was common poker slang long before Texas Hold'em came along, and is properly found in the general poker glossary.  Indeed I suspect, but cannot find a good reference to back me up, that the term predates its use in poker.  --LDC 05:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nuts 

message: Slang glossaries violate the following policy:
Wikipedia is not a dictionary
 Wikipedia is not a dictionary or a usage or jargon guide. Wikipedia articles are not:
# Dictionary definitions. Because Wikipedia is not a dictionary, please do not create an entry merely to define a term. An article should usually begin with a  good definition; if you come across an article that is nothing more than a definition, see if there is information you can add that would be appropriate for an encyclopedia. An exception to this rule is for articles about the cultural meanings of individual  numbers.
# Lists of such definitions. There are, however,  disambiguation pages consisting of pointers to other pages; these are used to clarify differing meanings of a word. Wikipedia also includes  glossary pages for various specialized fields.
# A usage guide or slang and idiom guide. Wikipedia is not in the business of saying how words, idioms, etc. should be used. We aren't teaching people how to talk like a Cockney chimney-sweep. However, it may be important in the context of an encyclopedia article to describe just how a word is used to distinguish among similar, easily confused ideas, as in nation or freedom. In some special cases an article about an essential piece of slang may be appropriate.
----
Due to the many AfDs which are initiated to enforce this policy and due to the resistance to such deletion by defenders of the glossaries, I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#Slang glossaries to rewrite the policy in order to solve this problem and to readdress this question: should slang glossaries by allowed on Wikipedia?  --List Expert 23:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attention: Slang Glossary policy discussion underway 

message: Yes, both 10-2 and A-Q are called "Doyle Brunson".  The former because of his winning the WSOP with it, the latter because he is famous for saying that he hates the hand and never plays it in no-limit hold'em.  --LDC 03:11, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Doyle Brunson"