Talk:Piano Sonata No. 8 (Beethoven)

message: The first movement is not really that difficult -- it's pretty much the same thing repeated twice, partly transposed the second time... it's rather long, though, about 8 minutes... =P cryptfiend64 01:44, May 18, 2004 (UTC)
: Depends on your point of reference.  Compared to most of the other classical repertoire, including Beethoven's other sonatas, it's fairly difficult.  But then, it is not as difficult as, say, a Chopin piano concerto, or Rhapsody in Blue, or some of the Liszt etudes.  Compared to baroque keyboard music, well, it depends on the perfomer since some find five melodic lines more frustrating due to the difficulty in reading them, while others find the more technically demanding segments in classical era works harder.  UninvitedCompany 04:46, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Since there isn't any consensus on this point, and it's quite subjective in any event, I've deleted, hoping no one will be bent out of shape.  Note that we don't seem to be evaluating piano pieces for difficulty in the general case.  Opus33 05:47, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

text: "it's pretty much the same thing repeated twice, partly transposed the second time" — Yes, that's how sonatas are built. :-D — Mütze (talk) 23:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Difficulty

message: #Thanks, Wahoofive, for pointing out the resemblance between the first theme of the third movement and the second theme of the first.  I put this in.
#I moved the discussion of Mozart's K. 457 down a bit where it wouldn't interrupt the flow, and fleshed it out a bit.
#On an impulse I removed:
*Professional MIDI recordings of Beethoven's works
having listened a bit to the MIDI.  This is of course just an esthetic opinion, but I feel that the Op. 13 performance you find at this site sounds awful--no rhythmic or dynamic differentiation, left hand drowns out the right, tone quality like what you hear in old silent movies.  Not a good intro to the work for those who haven't heard it before.  Feel free to revert if you truly feel that anyone would benefit from hearing this performance.
Opus33 14:56, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Three tweaks

message: The theme song from the film Bustin' Loose (1981) uses some of the same progressions as the adagio of "Pathétique". Is it close enough to be notable? --Damian Yerrick (☎) 01:15, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bustin' Loose? 

message: According to the program notes written by musicologist Eric Blom for the complete sonata recordings made by Artur Schnabel, Beethoven did indeed give the title "Pathetique" to this sonata. Opus33 18:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverting erroneous edit

message: Overall, the analytic section reads as though it is original work. Please insert references to cited sources!Tgkohn (talk)   — Preceding undated comment added 07:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, this article is a bit shocking to be honest... even the key for the second subject of the first movement is given wrong. It is not E-flat Major, but e-flat minor. And it is not at all a customary choice of key at this point in music history. I'll correct that, but this article definitely needs some major cleaning up/expansion. the paragraph also calls the slow introduction 'first theme' - well it doesn't come back at the beginning of the Recapitulation. It is a structurally significant and subsequently developed introductory theme if anything. i have no time to correct this now, but if nobody will the next time i check i'll do it. but if someone took the effort that would be very much appreciated :)
Thanks - G from Connecticut, Hungary  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.99.167.127 (talk) 05:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Thank you for spotting this error, which I have fixed.  Opus33 15:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I have slighlty extended the description of the 2nd mvnt: since both "modulation episodes" involve two modulations, the previous concise version looked a bit confusing (in particular, it did not mention the 5 bars in the key of F-minor noted in the above discussion). Like the above poster, I would say "I don't really know what I'm doing", yet I did commence the change (as it seems in accord with the previous discussion), so if anyone could please proofread the present version, it would be great. 128.97.82.220 (talk) 04:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Analytical errors

message: :Hello, this article is a bit shocking to be honest... even the key for the second subject of the first movement is given wrong. It is not E-flat Major, but e-flat minor. And it is not at all a customary choice of key at this point in music history. I'll correct that, but this article definitely needs some major cleaning up/expansion. the paragraph also calls the slow introduction 'first theme' - well it doesn't come back at the beginning of the Recapitulation. It is a structurally significant and subsequently developed introductory theme if anything. i have no time to correct this now, but if nobody will the next time i check i'll do it. but if someone took the effort that would be very much appreciated :)
Thanks - G from Connecticut, Hungary  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.99.167.127 (talk) 05:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  1st mvt 

message: In the modulating episodes descirbed in the analysis of the 2nd mvmt, the first was said to go from c-minor to E-flat-Major. In the score in front of me it seems to be _firmly_ in the key of f-minor at bar 16 with the following bars of i-V-i-V-i confirming this. I'd change it, but don't really know what I'm doing and don't want to screw up the page
:Thank you for spotting this error, which I have fixed.  Opus33 15:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have slighlty extended the description of the 2nd mvnt: since both "modulation episodes" involve two modulations, the previous concise version looked a bit confusing (in particular, it did not mention the 5 bars in the key of F-minor noted in the above discussion). Like the above poster, I would say "I don't really know what I'm doing", yet I did commence the change (as it seems in accord with the previous discussion), so if anyone could please proofread the present version, it would be great. 128.97.82.220 (talk) 04:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  2nd mvmt 

message: :(This topic, now spanning three years of discussion, is moved to the bottom as the most recent change.)
Trying to balance the "Romantic" view--this is a classical work in many ways.
The text concerning the last movement currently says that it "refers to themes from both of previous movements".  Can GaryW or anyone else specify what these references are?  One usually thinks of such cross-references as being more characteristic of the later Beethoven, so I am puzzled...  
:Opus33 04:24, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: The theme of the rondo is quite similar to the SECOND theme of the first movement. --Wahoofive 01:03, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The chord changes in the third movement are very similar to those in the second, just they go much faster. --Sbrools (talk . contribs) 01:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True enough; both are i - V - i, with the V sitting on top of a tonic pedal.  Is this something worth including or is what the article already says enough?  Opus33 03:30, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Is the Pathetique Sonata a cyclic form?

message: From http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/patetica.html
"Beethoven’s Pathetique may very well have been inspired from Mozart’s piano sonata K. 457, since both compositions are in C minor and have three very similar movements. This is, however, just a theory since musicologists don’t seem to come to an agreement on this issue, especially since the unique connection of motifs throughout the sonata constitutes a major step forward from Haydn or Mozart’s creation. Beethoven's Pathetique, still remains one of his most popular sonatas even 200 years after its composition."
I think that the second movements of these two sonatas especially show a strong similarity. Perhaps this is worth mentioning in the main article. This similarity is mentioned in the article for Mozart's Piano Sonata No. 14: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._457#Relation_to_Beethoven.27s_.22Path.C3.A9tique.22
Attys 02:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mozart's Influence

message: I noticed this article claims the origin of 'pathetique' are disputed, yet  says (and i quote):
This Sonata represents one of the few cases in which the popular title came from the composer himself - its full name is 'Grande sonate pathétique' (pathetic in the sense of 'suffering', rather than the English sense of 'pitiful'). It was written in 1798, a time when Beethoven was beginning to become aware of his encroaching deafness and yet was leading a relatively contented domestic life.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.51.58.227 (talk) 23:50, August 29, 2007 (UTC) 
There are other sources that say undeniably it was named by someone else...  so its better left as is i suppose.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.67.206.179 (talk) 04:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name Origin 

message: Billy Joel's "This Night Can Last Forever" uses (quite nicely) the melody from the Adagio Cantabile.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.127.98.100 (talk) 14:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pop culture section 

message: Maybe it's worth checking whether the scholarly literature on this sonata has anything about the following observation. I once played the pathetique and Bach's 2nd Partita in C minor, BWV 826, at the same time and it struck me that one can make an even better case for saying that Beethoven used ideas from this Bach piece than for saying that he did from the Mozart c-minor sonata. Notice that the slow introductory Sinfonia of the partita also has the marking 'Grave' and figures similar to the beginning of the Pathetique. AFter the slow section of the sinfonia, there comes a medium-tempo bit with a melody going G C D Eb. These notes are used (rythmically transformed) by Beethoven in his 3rd movt main theme and in the hand-crossing passage in the first movt. Assuming these parallels aren't just chance, I don't know if Beethoven consciously or unconsciously used the Bach piece as inspiration.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew.mcintyre (talk • contribs) 13:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influence of Bach's c-minor partita? 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Piano Sonata No. 1 (Beethoven) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RM bot 13:15, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Note the date of the foregoing notice. The discussion, now long closed, concerned whether to move the sonata articles to new titles incorporating opus numbers. The conclusion was not to do so. Drhoehl (talk) 23:26, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in progress

message: about a popular culture reference is unsuitable for the article's lead and ought to be removed. The item had been added and removed before. I suggest that there is no need to mention this in this article at all and it ought to be removed again. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:05, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia in lead

message: *Speedy close in order to centralize discussion in one place, as this duplicates what is happening at Talk:Moonlight_Sonata#Requested_move. (Note:  that discussion may need to move to an even more central location, such as the talk page for the Beethoven piano sonatas.) Antandrus  (talk) 16:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: See recently initiated discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music#Area for research - Orchestrations of Beethoven Sonatas. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:29, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orchestral version 

message: According to the lead section, there is nothing remarkable about this piece. Ho hum. Yawn. Wake me if anything…. 
Some people think "encyclopedic," or "academic" means; dry and boring.  yuk. --2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:CCB5:DDE9:52E:F9B3 (talk) 20:26, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead Section needs work. 

message: Why "Modern derivative works" section is removed from the article? Joe feyzullah (talk) 18:59, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  influences 

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thread_title:  Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion