Talk:University of Wisconsin

message: "University of Wisconsin" has been a state-wide higher education system throughout history. Before 1956, University of Wisconsin consisted of the UW-Madison campus together with University of Wisconsin centers and extensions overall Wisconsin. When UW-Milwaukee was created IN 1956, it absorbed a large University of Wisconsin facility in downtown Milwaukee. UW-Parkside and UW-Green Bay campuses were actually built from former University of Wisconsin education facilities in these two regions. The majority of "University of Wisconsin" used in Wikipedia refer to the one that existed before 1956, which  basically was a state-wide system. Between 1956 and 1971 University of Wisconsin was the official name of University of Wisconsin (1956-1971). After 1971, this name has been shared by more than a dozen University of Wisconsin campuses. Considering all these factors, I'll suggest directing "University of Wisconsin" to University of Wisconsin System, not just one single campus, for the sake of effectiveness and efficiency for users and editors. Miaers 16:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 1) Please take a look at the links for yourself before making the statement that most links refer to one thing or another; most do not refer to dates prior to 1956. 2) Even if your statement on Wikipedia usage is true (not conceded), your formulation ignores that an overwhelming majority of links relating to dates before 1956 still refer to the Madison campus. See E. P. Wigner, for example, or Otto Hermann Kahn, or C. Wright Mills. Do you really think these links refer to places other than Madison?  Dekimasuが... 16:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If the "University of Wisconsin" is used for anything after 1956, it should be fixed by adding a dash. As for the examples you pointed out, it actually refers to the system as whole not just Madison. Your argument sounds like someone is from Wisconsin but not from the US. Miaers 16:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your analogy doesn't hold water. You are basically saying that Madison can't have a history as an institution prior to 1956, even though we know things that happened, specifically, in Madison. To imply otherwise for these links would be willful ignorance. Can you find me a single link that refers to (a) a time prior to 1956 and (b) a place other than Madison? Dekimasuが... 17:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Since there have been no disagreements, I'll consider it a consencus to direct "University of Wisconsin" to the system article. That is the way how majority of large major public university systems, like University of North Carolina, State University of New York, University of Illinois, University of California, Indiana University, etc. are treated in wikipedia. Miaers 01:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you kidding?  There are serious disagreements.  That is what the entire contents of this talk page are about.  Please do not unilaterally make another redirect as you did earlier.  This is nothing close to consensus on this; in fact, the current redirect is in place due to consensus.  Have you even read the comments that Dekimasu made?  Do not make this move without discussing it further.  Cheers, PaddyM 02:27, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: University of Wisconsin as a system

message: Since no one can seem to agree on any subject having to do with the University of Wisconsin, I propose that we make a request for formal mediation at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation. This process should (hopefully) put an end to this constant arguing and edit wars. Please respond with your opinions on this matter. – Lordmontu (talk) • (contribs) 04:59, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is fine to try any method to reach a consensus. University of Wisconsin has been a system throughout history and majority of large major public university systems comparable to University of Wisconsin all direct such page to the system article. Miaers 16:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I dislike the idea that a disagreement on this small scale requires formal intervention, but I wouldn't mind divesting myself of this situation. WP:DAB and I started out as third parties, too, but those outside opinions and the guideline-backed recommendation to look at the links have left behind some dissent with the force of conviction. If everyone can agree to respect the decisions of whatever third parties come next, we should all be better off. Dekimasuよ! 13:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation? 

message: It seems that nobody is interested in mediation. I'll continue to suggest redirecting University of Wisconsin to University of Wisconsin System. The followings are the reasons:
*University of Wisconsin has been a state-wide system throughout history. 
*Most of major large public university systems in wikipedia redirect similar page to the system article. 
Miaers 03:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it can be argued both ways. One of the reasons Wikipedia works as well as it does (which is remarkably well but certainly not perfectly) is that, when you can't get consensus, it doesn't really matter which way the decision goes. The majority view, for the moment, seems to be that UW-Madison is the better redirect. Andrewa 12:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Previous discussions didn't consider the fact that University of Wisconsin has been a system throughout history. Anyway, I don't see strong objections. Redirecting to the system article also conforms to the tradition of bringing the benefit of the University to all the places of Wisconsin. University of Wisconsin has never been restricted to only Madison campus. Miaers 13:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That isn't editing from a neutral perspective. Once again, did you ever look at the links? The reason you don't see strong objections is because we have stated our objections already. The objections are still there, but it seems hard to alter your perception of the situation. Dekimasuよ! 14:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, you are not editing from a neutral perspective, ignoring the fact that University of Wisconsin has been a system. How come editing based on facts is not neutral? I've answered your question before. If you look at the What links here, you can see all the University of Wisconsin used should be a system, because it has been a system thoughout history. Miaers 14:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't accusing you of something. I was referring to the proposal to "conform to the traditions" of the University of Wisconsin rather than those of Wikipedia. I do not see what you see in the links, so we will have to agree to disagree on that. I'm not sure what else to say at this point. I commend you for arguing in favor of what you think is right, but at some point this discussion will have to move out of the exploration phase. Dekimasuよ! 14:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Is this really still such a big issue?  Miaers seems to be the only one currently arguing for the redirect, while most other editors either see the benefit of the UW-Madison redirect or have yielded to the majority opinion.  If we have to have a mediation, then, so be it, but it seems like Miaers is more interested in not listening to the rational arguments offered by Dekimasu and more interested in simply yelling at everyone else.  Can we just let this be for awhile and see if other editors want to jump in and offer new and fresh perspectives on the issue?  Cheers, PaddyM 16:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Face it, Miaers, we lost this one. The Madison-centric editors won, and we aren't going to get a mediation granted. I've given up on this one, even though you and I both know you are right in this (if not on some other topics we've argued about). --Orange Mike 21:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Redirect

message: I noticed that Miaers, again, made the decision himself to change the redirect to the System article and claimed that there was some kind of discussion and resultant consensus on the talk page . . . I don't remember that sort of agreement happening, so I've reverted the edits.  Cheers, PaddyM 00:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PaddyM, redirecting to the system article is per the historical facts and the current situation of University of Wisconsin. I have given enough time for response in the above discussion. And nobody has so far provided convincing reasions why "University of Wisconsin" shouldn't redirect to University of Wisconsin System. The current disambig page doesn't include the fact that University of Wisconin had been a state-wide system before 1956 (sources provided in the discussion above). Also it gives no reference to individual University of Wisconsin campuses. Only redirecting to the system article can solve all the problems. If there is no further convincing reasons provided, I'll revert PaddyM's edit. Miaers 00:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, you have to actually give people a chance to respond before making your major edit changes.  Secondly, there are plenty of convincing reasons above, but you have chosen to summarily ignore them and then claim that everyone except you is violating a NPOV, despite the fact that this is not the case.  As Dekimasu said previously, a person typing University of Wisconsin into the search box is going to be looking for Madison a majority of the time, which is where the redirect should point.  For those readers who are looking for the System article, the hatnote provides more than adequate information for them to find what they need.  Anyway, please don't start reverting and making drastic changes until other people have had the chance to weigh in on the issue.  Cheers, PaddyM 01:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation Page 

message: I'm surprised to see that "University of Wisconsin (disambiguation)" was restored after being deleted. But this disambig page does't solve the problem at all. No individual University of Wisconsin campuses are shown on that page except Madison. But people actually type University of Wisconsin in wikipedia to search individual University of Wisconsin campuses. More importantly, the search doesn't go to the disambig page at all. Miaers 02:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, Maiers, I don't think that people actually do type "University of Wisconsin" when looking for other campuses. You are the one that constantly calls for us to prove our facts and opinions with outside references. You should do the same in this instance. However, it is nearly impossible to prove your argument...so we will be arguing back and forth for a much longer time. People who have knowlegde of the UW system will most likey type "UW-Superior" or "UW-Platteville", etc... People who do not have knowlegde of the UW system then probably don't even know of the campuses outside of Madison. I experienced this just today. I wanted to find the page for the University affiliated with the Texas Longhorns, so I typed "University of Texas" into the search box. And it took me straight to the University of Texas at Austin article, which is the one that I wanted. I have no clue about the other campuses that comprise the "University of Texas". But my search took me straight to where I wanted to go. I know that Maiers will quickly respond with some sort of argument, saying something like "all users won't be searching for the campus at Madison/Austin." or "The University of Wisconsin comprises more than the Madison campus" and so forth. I DON'T CARE what is "politically correct" or what will mend the broken hearts of UW-Milwaukee students after finding out that their campus isn't as big or as well-known as Madison (Maiers--I know this is POV, so don't point it out anymore!) I am simply saying, as I have said before, that "University of Wisconsin" primarily refers to the campus at Madison in the rest of the world outside of Milwaukee, especially if the reader has little knowlege of the whole UW System. – Lordmontu (talk) • (contribs) 04:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This pattern is getting old and tired. Miaers: "I'm right." Others: Counter Arugment. Miaers: "You don't make sense" or "I don't get your point." "I'm doing what I want to, anyhow, and I'm going to keep doing this over and over again under I get my way." Madmaxmarchhare 16:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Miaers, this entire thing is about your personal feelings. I'll stop if you do.. Madmaxmarchhare 16:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Hunh? This has been your personal, emotional crusade for months now. You have "facts," everyone else who doesn't agree with your viewpoint has "nonsense." There's a fairly simple point I'm trying to make here..  Madmaxmarchhare 17:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Miaers, everyone has given you reasonable counter arguments. Just because you don't find them to be "factual" and find them "nonssense," doesn't mean that they are. We all know what _you_ believe, but you may want to consider that others have opinions that not only differ from yours, but may have as much validity. Seriouly, I would just like to know, do you just plan to keep arguing your "facts" until you've got what you want, or is there another endgame? If it's the former, why should anyone bother to entertain your "facts" at all if all you're going for is a win at any and all costs? Really, if your entire purpose here is just to continue to do this until you get your way, why should anyone assume good faith on your part? Madmaxmarchhare 17:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Your arrogantly perverse and mulish behavior makes it necessary to focus on you. While you are occasionally right, you nonetheless persist in making yourself so obnoxious to everyone else involved in editing articles as to drive the less patient away. That is about you. --Orange Mike 17:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Now Orange Mike is the baddy, and he's been a staunch ally of yours for most of this. But, Again, what are you going to do? I, and probably a lot of people here want to know.. are you just going to keep brow-beating until you get your way or is there another exit strategy for you? Madmaxmarchhare 17:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Do you even read what people write on this talk page?  OrangeMike has consistently supported you, despite your willingness to attack him.  He has never engaged in personal attacks and has tried to soften everyone to your opinions on many an occasion.  He is also, in fact, not Madison centered, but has repeatedly debated in favor of the non-Madison-centric crowd.  On this issue, Miaers, you seem to have alienated yourself.  Everyone here is trying to remain civil, yet you just go to your old ad hominem standby and call us obnoxious and ignore our questions in favor of your usual "recall NPOV" comments.  Lets have a cup of tea and remember why we're here, Miaers.  Cheers, PaddyM 17:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Maiers.. what's the end game. Please answer--are you just going to keep doing this until you get your way, or not? Madmaxmarchhare 18:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Miaers, firstly, I asked "please." Secondly, if all you're going to do is brow-beat us until you "win" your argument, why should anyone bother to respond? I'm still not sure why you can't answer the question "are you just going to do this until you win?" Madmaxmarchhare 19:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: So, ok, either way, do you plan to argue your points until you prevail, or do you have another outcome that you're willing to accept? Madmaxmarchhare 19:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok, then we're at a stalemate. What do you suggest that we do? What will work for you? Madmaxmarchhare 19:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok, what you suggest isn't going to happen, so what is your plan? Madmaxmarchhare 19:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok, that sounds good then, let's put this to rest for now and come back to it later. Thanks for all of your ideas.. maybe next time it will go your way.. Madmaxmarchhare 21:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Individual University of Wisconsin campuses

message: Editors with an interest in this article and the related discussions may also be interested in commenting on this deletion nomination.  --ElKevbo 04:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: University of Wisconsin (disambiguation) nominated for deletion