Talk:Operation Horseshoe

message: I would suggest reviewing the following paper entitled Democracy and Propaganda: NATO’s War in Kosovo by Dr. Mark A. Wolfgram, Assistant Professor of Political Science at Oklahoma State University original (doc) google cache (html)  
Here is a portion of the abstract:
:"Although an independent media is recognized as central to the proper functioning of democratic institutions, democratic governments often exploit their citizens’ faith in that independence to generate popular support or at least acquiescence.  I use the examples of Operation Horseshoe and the fighting at Racak and Rugovo during the Kosovo war to illustrate how democratic governments in the United States and Germany attempted to manipulate public perceptions of the Kosovo conflict in 1999 and justify the war.  The study is based upon a review of over 100 newspaper articles found in the Lexis-Nexis database and numerous scholarly articles, allowing me to trace the development these specific narratives."
Perhaps we can incorporate some citations to this work and the sources referenced in the paper in the article.  // Laughing Man 06:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article as it is now is ridiculous. Claims by NATO governments and intelligence without any backing are presented as "evidence", while anything else is presented as "denial". Nikola 19:20, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  15 years after it was first suggested, I have added the Wolfgram source to the article. SchuttenbachPercival (talk) 23:37, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Source

message: User:Nikola Smolenski has removed a signiticant part of article without prior discussion. Removed informations were directly related to the article's topic so I have put it back. Removal of controversial content requires prior discussion.--Mladifilozof (talk) 12:47, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no controversial content. Removed information is completely irrelevant to this article and the references used do not mention Operation Horseshoe anywhere. The newest incarnation of the article is even worse, presenting Operation Horseshoe as something that actually existed. That is why I will revert it too. Nikola (talk) 12:16, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing of content 

message: We do not know does such Plan ever existed, but we know that the Republic of Serbia "in an organized manner, with significant use of state resources" conducted a broad campaign of violence against Albanian civilians in order to expel them from Kosovo and thus maintain political control of Belgrade over the province. We also know, from the legally binding verdict of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, that deliberate actions of Serbian forces during the campaign "provoked the departure of at least 700,000 ethnic Albanians from Kosovo in the short period from late March to early June 1999."
Those informations are completely relevant to the article and the references used do mention Operation Horseshoe. If you challenges any information from the article, please name specific problem. You can't simply remove any information you don't like. We have to present all relevant informations in the article, not to hide it.--Mladifilozof (talk) 23:04, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Returning of content 

message: From the Report of UK Committee on Foreign Affairs (paragraph named OPERATION HORSESHOE):
* It is also the case that "over 90 per cent of the Kosovo Albanian population was displaced in 1999."
* According to the OSCE "the majority of refugee statements indicate that documents...were routinely taken from Kosovo Albanians by police. This indicates that it was intended that the refugees should not return. Expulsions on this scale do not appear to be part of a "cantonisation" plan, but a more ambitious effort to rid Kosovo of the majority of its Kosovo Albanian population. 
*  The Foreign Secretary was clear that "what we have witnessed in Kosovo has not been spontaneous emotional anger by random servicemen; what we are witnessing has been a deliberate co-ordinated programme of deportation."
* We conclude that, regardless of the accuracy of reports of "Operation Horseshoe," there were orchestrated elements to the campaign of expulsions, which could be described as a plan. We also conclude that the withdrawal of OSCE monitors together with the international media and the start of NATO's bombing campaign encouraged Milosevic to implement this plan.
The Balkans in the new millennium: in the shadow of war and peace‎, by Tom Gallagher: 
* Operation Horseshoe: the ethnic cleansing of Kosovan Albanians
War and change in the Balkans: nationalism, conflict and cooperation, by Brad K. Blitz:
* Hindsight, and the recovery of documents, suggests that NATO faced a Belgrade determined to brutally solve the Kosovo problem through: 'Operation Horseshoe'.
Things fall apart: containing the spillover from an Iraqi civil war, by Daniel Byman, Kenneth Michael Pollack:
* Although wary of Western intervention, Belgrade struck back hard in the summer of 1998, unleashing Operation Horseshoe, which drove hundreds of thousands of Kosovar Albanians from their homes in a replay of the tragedies in Croatia and Bosnia.
Yugoslavia as history: twice there was a country, by John R. Lampe:
* The Serbian side began preparing its Third Army in nearby Niš and paramilitary police units under the interior ministry for Operation Horseshoe.
Max Planck Yearbook of United Nations Law 2000, by Jochen Abr Frowein, Rüdiger Wolfrum:
* This led to new Serb offensives which culminated in "Operation Horseshoe" directed not only against KLA fighters but also including systematic expulsions of Kosovar civilians.
Twenty-first-century peace operations, by William J. Durch:
* ...on March 20, the Serbian offensive, Operation Horseshoe, was already in motion. 
Collision course: NATO, Russia, and Kosovo‎, by John Norris:
* With the onset of NATO military operations on March 24, Yugoslav army, police, and paramilitary forces accelerated Operation Horseshoe ...
War since 1945, by Jeremy Black:
* Indeed Operation Horseshoe, the ethnic cleansing campaign, increased as the air attack mounted. 
The Guardian also wrote about Operation Horseshoe (Milosevic and Operation Horseshoe):
* If the planes had been flying lower - as they did later in the war - they would have seen close-up the unfolding of the most appalling humanitarian disaster in Europe in half a century. Down on the ground Operation Horseshoe, Milosevic's final solution to the Kosovo problem, was under way.
While dangers gather: congressional checks on presidential war powers, by William G. Howell, Jon C. Pevehouse:
* Operation Horseshoe was by this time in full swing. Literally hundreds of thousands of Albanians were being driven out of Kosovo, terrorized by all manner of atrocities.
Timothy Garton Ash also wrote about Operation Horseshoe (available on Serbian):
* Last year, Milosevic already drove some 300,000 people of Kosovo from their homes. Obviously the new operation, allegedly named "Operation Horseshoe" was planned in advance.
Obviously, many authors use term "Operation Horseshoe" for a large-scale campaign of ethnic cleansing carried out by Serbian forces, to expel the Albanian population from Kosovo.--Mladifilozof (talk) 23:20, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: The passage of Noam Chomsky's criticism is evidently false (perhaps on purpose?).  He reveals that on March 27, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) reported that 4000 had fled Kosovo, and on April 1, the flow was high enough for UNHCR to begin to provide daily figures.  Its Humanitarian Evacuation Programme began on April 5.  The 200,000 figure is what the UNHCR was reporting for displaced persons within Kosovo, a figure that had been fairly stable for about a year.
Here is a slightly more complete report, from his book New Military Humanism.  Prior to the bombing, and for two days following its onset, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) reported no data on refugees, though many Kosovars -- Albanian and Serb -- had been leaving the province for years, and entering as well, sometimes as a direct consequence of the Balkan wars, sometimes for economic and other reasons.NOTE{For details on the refugee flows, and the history generally, see Miranda Vickers, _Between Serb and Albanian: A History of Kosovo_ (Columbia, 1998).} After three days of bombing, UNHCR reported on March 27 that 4000 had fled Kosovo to Albania and Macedonia, the two neighboring countries.  Until April 1 the UNHCR provided no daily figures on refugees, according to the _New York Times_.  By April 5, the _Times_ reported that "more than 350,000 have left Kosovo since March 24," relying on UNHCR figures, while unknown numbers of Serbs fled north to Serbia to escape the increased violence from the air and on the ground.  After the war, it was reported that half the Serb population had "moved out when the NATO bombing began." There have been varying estimates of the number of refugees within Kosovo before the NATO bombing.  Cambridge University Law Professor Marc Weller, Legal Adviser to the Kosova (Kosovo Albanian) Delegation at the 1999 Rambouillet Conference on Kosovo, reports that after the withdrawal of the international monitors (KVM, Kosovo Verification Mission) on March 19, 1999, "within a few days the number of displaced had again risen to over 200,000." Basing himself on U.S. intelligence, House Intelligence Committee Chair Porter Goss gave the estimate of 250,000 internally displaced.  The UNHCR reported on March 11 that "more than 230,000 people remain displaced within Kosovo."NOTE{Carlotta Gall, _NYT_, April 5.  Summary based on NATO and UNHCR beginning April 1, _NYT_, May 29, 1999, accompanying a John Kifner retrospective.  Serbs, Guy Dinmore, _Financial Times_, April 1; Kevin Cullen, _BG_, June 12, 1999.  Weller, "The Rambouillet Conference," _International Affairs_ 75.2, April 1999.  Goss, BBC, "Panorama: War Room, 19 April, 1999.  UNHCR press release, March 11, 1999.}  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:430:0:38:DD77:ABD3:538B:ED03 (talk) 09:46, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe Yugoslav Army hasn't plan named Operation Horseshoe. Maybe diagrams of Operation Horseshoe were made in German Defence Ministery. But unfortunately, Serbian forces actually conducted large-scale campaign of ethnic cleansing. Nowadays, Operation Horseshoe is a name attributed to such campaign.--Mladifilozof (talk) 22:23, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, unfortunately it is POV to write about that in that way. Please, stop removing tags from article, when it is obvious that only you regard this article neutral. --Tadijaspeaks 18:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: C'mon, guys. There's A LOT of scholars, papers and testimony about Operation Horseshoe and because of ONE or very few want to contest it, it doesn't mean that Operation Horseshoe was "a lie of the Germans, Americans and Albanians" -- otherwise, Holocaust denial would be a credible teory today and the Shoah would be described as "The alleged killing of Jews allegedly by army and police forces of Germany during World War II".--189.62.206.53 (talk) 07:47, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism 

message: Was not this war religiously motivated? I thought that the ethnic peculiarity of the "to be cleansed" group was religion. Would someone clarify that, please, and if I am correct indicate the religion of the involved groups.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.129.241 (talk) 01:56, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion? 

message: The operation clearly taret civillians with the objective of wiping out the Albanian-speaking population from Kosovo. It was, in fact, a TERROR OPERATION made by the dictatorship of Slobodan Milosevic. NATO intervened to stop this terror.--189.33.173.42 (talk) 15:37, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Operation Horseshoe, "antiterrorist operation"?

message: OK, sources told us that Bulgaria invented the plan, that was NOT EXISTING, and send it to Germany as "truth" find by their Military intelligence. 
* Stručnjaci: Bugari nisu sami smislili „Potkovicu“
* Bugari poslali NATO na Srbiju
* OTKRIVENA NAJVEĆA PREVARA AGRESIJE NATO NA SRBIJU: BUGARI IZMISLILI „POTKOVICU“
* Bulgaria forwards Horseshoe plan data to Germany
Please, dont remove POV tag, as this article should be fixed, even if we fix this subject. --WhiteWriter speaks 13:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't misrepresent the sources again as you did a couple of days ago by adding that In 2011, former Bulgarian Foreign Minister Nadezhda Neynski revealed that entire operation was hoax and political lye by Bulgarian government in order to take down former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milošević. although the source said nothing about lies or hoaxes etc.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, i didnt used exact words then, but now is fixed, as i did. Please, dont remove legitimate sources from this article, as you did. --WhiteWriter speaks 18:21, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You used the term lie and hoax that were nowhere to be found in the actual source and then you repeated the same source misrepresentation after the revert of the block evading/sock IP. That being said I didn't remove the tanjug source but corrected and moved it to the sections.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:14, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: No, neither words lie nor hoax are in the article now. --WhiteWriter speaks 19:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither are in the article because bobrayner and later I removed them, while the blocked IP kept reverting your edit back. Btw why do you and the blocked IP keep adding the term alleged? None of the sources support it and please attribute the content to the appropriate source. Even Tanjug doesn't label the Serbian claim as a fact but as an allegation of RT of Serbia, to which it was attributed. Btw you don't have to add every single version of the story that has appeared on the Serbian media. The English-language version of Tanjug is more than enough.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:47, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources use the term alleged, including that Tanjug one you mentioned. As it is questionable did this ever happened in the way it is explained, it is alleged. --WhiteWriter speaks 22:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I really have no idea where is that ip come from. And it looks like it is a lot of different ip's... But probably one user... Anyway, what is your proposition regarding this dispute? What is the thing you question regarding those sources? P.S. I used 2nd revert today for Gaius. In order to invite him here. :) :) Three is the merrier! :) So, tell me, what is you proposition? --WhiteWriter speaks 22:14, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAIC there's no dispute, so please stick to the sources and attribute them properly.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:16, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There is dispute, as you are removing sources and opposite meaning from this article. AFAIC, there is dispute. And i hope that gaius will join, and will hear him also. Reverting will not fix the situation. Source claim that Bulgarian military intelligence and government drafted this plan in 1999. So, this plan was fabricated by Bulgaria. That means that it is alleged operation of Yugoslav state, as it is (in fact) fabricated by Bulgaria. --WhiteWriter speaks 22:23, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I want to assume good faith but I'll ask only once (since you've added the same part three times) where does she during her interview confirm any kind of allegation? You've added, reverted and even attributed to her terms like hoax and political lies so you'll have to provide some sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:26, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Zjarri, "hoax and political lies" are now deleted. That means that those are not in the article anymore. I will not add sources for the material that is not in the article anymore. Anyway, other sources does have that terms, like "Revealed the biggest fraud of NATO aggression against Serbia: Bulgarians invented "Horseshoe"" but it is better to have English sources for the exact terms, for the lede. Something different, that IS in the article? :) --WhiteWriter speaks 22:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I.e you're admitting that you have no source, in which the Bulgarian minister makes any of the statements you've attributed to her.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:42, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Following your insistence on a completely irrelevant information that does not exist in the article, and have no connection points with my related questions, i conclude that you don't have any other problem regarding this sources in this article. --WhiteWriter speaks 22:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Why did you change the meaning of this sentence into opposite one? --WhiteWriter speaks 22:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Now everything is attributed correctly without the need of reverts i.e you had written  In 2011, former Bulgarian Foreign MinisterNadezhda Neynski revealed that Bulgarian military intelligence and government drafted the plan in 1999 and turn over the information to Germany but in her interview she said "I provided the German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer – respectively NATO –a report in possession of the Bulgarian government that made it clear that there had been a plan, "Horseshoe", carefully prepared by the intelligence services of Serbiaand then state leader Milosevic that set two goals. First – to destroy the Kosovo Liberation Army, and second – to "cleanse" Kosovo of ethnic Albanians. so I made an edit that made her statement precise  In 2011, former Bulgarian Foreign MinisterNadezhda Neynski revealed that Bulgarian military intelligence and government compiled a report which made clear the existence of the plan and turned over the information to Germany, although plan was not verified at that time.. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:59, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, i am afraid that you didnt understood the source. She was explaining the horseshoe plan that was presented to Germany, and its parts, and she was not telling that like a factographic thing that happened, but like a parts of the Horseshoe plan. --WhiteWriter speaks 23:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Bobrayner also changed the term drafted with intercepted (which WW later reverted). While intercepted is somewhat closer to the sources, drafted is nowhere near to the sources and has a very different  primary definition and connotation.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:49, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This plan IS NOT CONFIRMED. Neither then, nor now. Your deep pov about it cannot quite help in this article. Please, dont try to push it, as you dont have sources for it. And i added several sources for alleged. I can give you more, if we want to make lede unreadable... :) Do you have any further problem with this edits pf mine? If yes, tell me, and we will fix it. --WhiteWriterspeaks 10:23, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: World Socialist Web, Spectrezine and tertiary partially wikipedia-based sources? Not RS. Btw since you know what RS is and despite that you chose to go on a cite sources that self-identify as radical journals of the European Left  and are published by organizations like the  International Committee of the Fourth International is tendetious.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:14, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bulgarian invention 

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thread_title: File:Brazda-Stenkovac refugee camp.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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thread_title: File:Kosovo refugees in Macedonia 1999.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
::This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
::#There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
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thread_title:  removing POV tag with no active discussion per [[Template:POV]] 

message: Here we come Serb propaganda again… the majority of these little numbers point to texts written by marginal, far-left-wing publications in the Western World or Serbian sources. It seems like someone has to appease the souls of Milosevic and Arkan in Hell.
In the same paragraph, we see the world “pretext for NATO”, comparing the attitude of the Western military alliance to Nazi Germany in the Gleiwitz incident…--179.153.193.237 (talk) 13:46, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed it. Thanks for the pointer. bobrayner (talk) 20:21, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  “…alleged[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11]” 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120117005001/http://www.tanjug.rs/news/29644/bulgaria-forwards-horseshoe-plan-data-to-germany.htm to http://www.tanjug.rs/news/29644/bulgaria-forwards-horseshoe-plan-data-to-germany.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110522100942/http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Reports/document.html to http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/kosovo/reports/document.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Whilst many sources corroborate that Bulgaria supplied intelligence to Germany, and thus NATO, regarding 'horseshoe', none of the sources corroborate that Bulgaria gave the name, some explicitly refer to Germany giving the name, and several (eg Gdn), say that Bulgaria was not the only source at NATO's disposal for their conviction that such a plan existed. Pincrete (talk) 15:45, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: if your on top of the sources and they met RS, by all means correct the article and make the content adjustments. Best.Resnjari (talk) 15:59, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: If no one replies justifying present text, I will. No I'm not fully up to speed on this one, and aware that this is a contentious issue. Pincrete (talk) 16:03, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name given by the Bulgarian government ? 

message: ===Operations before NATO intervention===
Yugoslav Army military response to KLA attacks culminated in Operation Horseshoe directed not only against KLA fighters but also including systematic expulsions of Kosovar civilians. During the armed conflict in 1998 Yugoslav Army and Serbian police used excessive and random force, which resulted in property damage, displacement of population and death of civilians 
Some  date Operation Horseshoe's effective beginning to the summer of 1998, when hundreds of thousands of Kosovar Albanians were driven from their homes.
Withdrawal of Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe monitors, together with the start of NATO's bombing campaign, encouraged Milošević to implement this "orchestrated elements to the campaign of expulsions, which could be described as a plan". On 20 March 1999, the Serbian offensive, known as Operation Horseshoe, was already in motion.
'''
----
Firstly, the bolded sentence does not have anything to do with "Operations before NATO intervention". Quite the opposite, it refers to the start of NATO bombing and "Milošević's plan" as a consequence.
Secondly, "NATO intervention" should be referred to as "NATO bombing", as in the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia wiki page. In particular, the bombing of Kosovo is highly correlated with the displacement of people, and this is never commented on in this page.
Thirdly, the plan is only alleged, and no proof of its existence was shown (from what I understood from this article), as noted in the beginning of the page, even though this is completely disregarded throughout the page.
Finally, this wiki article is a complete mess, and I do not understand why is it allowed. It goes completely against Wikipedia standards, and should be completely re-written, specially when it comes to polarising subjects, such as recent wars.
: I agree with several aspects of this (unsigned) comment from 18 May 2021. First, the article is a complete mess. I noted that there were citations needed tags that in some cases dated back to January 2012; they had never been verified in nearly 10 years! Second, I removed the sentence  because it doesn't fit under "Operations before NATO intervention." Third, I agree that no proof of the existence of Operation Horseshoe has been shown in the article; although for WP:NPOV reasons, I have kept the citations from authors that take as given the existence of Operation Horseshoe. SchuttenbachPercival (talk) 23:34, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article inconsistencies 

message: Yugoslav Army military response to KLA attacks culminated in Operation Horseshoe directed not only against KLA fighters but also including systematic expulsions of Kosovar civilians. During the armed conflict in 1998 Yugoslav Army and Serbian police used excessive and random force, which resulted in property damage, displacement of population and death of civilians 
Some  date Operation Horseshoe's effective beginning to the summer of 1998, when hundreds of thousands of Kosovar Albanians were driven from their homes.
Withdrawal of Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe monitors, together with the start of NATO's bombing campaign, encouraged Milošević to implement this "orchestrated elements to the campaign of expulsions, which could be described as a plan". On 20 March 1999, the Serbian offensive, known as Operation Horseshoe, was already in motion.
'''
----
Firstly, the bolded sentence does not have anything to do with "Operations before NATO intervention". Quite the opposite, it refers to the start of NATO bombing and "Milošević's plan" as a consequence.
Secondly, "NATO intervention" should be referred to as "NATO bombing", as in the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia wiki page. In particular, the bombing of Kosovo is highly correlated with the displacement of people, and this is never commented on in this page.
Thirdly, the plan is only alleged, and no proof of its existence was shown (from what I understood from this article), as noted in the beginning of the page, even though this is completely disregarded throughout the page.
Finally, this wiki article is a complete mess, and I do not understand why is it allowed. It goes completely against Wikipedia standards, and should be completely re-written, specially when it comes to polarising subjects, such as recent wars.
: I agree with several aspects of this (unsigned) comment from 18 May 2021. First, the article is a complete mess. I noted that there were citations needed tags that in some cases dated back to January 2012; they had never been verified in nearly 10 years! Second, I removed the sentence  because it doesn't fit under "Operations before NATO intervention." Third, I agree that no proof of the existence of Operation Horseshoe has been shown in the article; although for WP:NPOV reasons, I have kept the citations from authors that take as given the existence of Operation Horseshoe. SchuttenbachPercival (talk) 23:34, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Operations before NATO intervention