Talk:William Oefelein

message: Global Nationa; - Tue, Feb 7, 2007 (Canada)
:Paul Johnson reports a NASA astronaut is facing attempted murder charges -- the apparent result of a love triangle situation.
Global National:  NASA love triangle
* http://tools.canada.com/southparc55/actions/doctest.aspx?guid=0ecaeb81-401c-4135-aa3d-2b451cd82b82#
CNN
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/.element/ssi/js/1.3/main.js
:An astronaut is charged in a lover's triangle kidnap plot. CNN's Miles O'Brien reports. (February 6)
NASA love triangle?
* javascript:cnnPlayListVideo('/video/us/2007/02/06/obrien.astronaut.arrested.wftv.affl','3')
:NASA astronaut charged with attempting to murder a romantic rival. CNN's Miles O'Brien reports (February 6)
Bizarre space love triangle
* javascript:cnnPlayListVideo('/video/us/2007/02/06/obrien.astronaut.love.triangle.affl','0')
:Shuttle astronaut Lisa Nowak accused of plotting to kidnap a romantic rival was granted bail. (February 6)
Astronaut makes court appearance
* javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/law/2007/02/06/astronaut.in.court.cnn','2007/02/20'); —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.51.11.102 (talk) 07:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: video feeds

message: I'm removing reference to her because she seems to have made conflicting statements to the media.  Gwen Gale 17:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Davis

message: I have removed a "separate relationships" section from this article because I have serious concerns that it could give severe undue weight to the topics of LN and CS in his very short biography here as an astronaut, the latter for which he is noted. Astronauts, unlike movie actors for example, are not (yet, anyway) noted for their personal relationships. Lastly, other than their training together, Oefelein's relationship with LN is as yet almost wholly undocumented. I would be willing to compromise, however, with a different title for a subsection dealing only with the LN news reports. Gwen Gale 21:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: His personal relationships have shoved him into the spotlight, and therefore deserve a separate section. They are certainly NOT part of his accomplishments as an astronaut. --Baba gump 22:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Lisa's words to police about her relationship with Oefelein is all that's needed. --Banana Republic 16:41, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: is? Gwen Gale 19:06, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Separate relationships section

message: Perhaps it's just me, but cite 4 "Astronaut charged in bizarre love triangle" links to MSNBC Page not found. The same title on an Associated Press story links here, which says Earlier, Nowak was quoted by police as saying she and Oefelein had something "more than a working relationship but less than a romantic relationship." – so it would be best to modify the sentence to read "Police stated that Nowak described her relationship...", unless we're less cautious than the press and assume that this police statement will stand. Cite 5 "Associated Press, Shuttle Pilot: Nowak Showed No Emotion" takes me to a Mar 8, 9:53 AM EST AP story titled "Astronaut Lisa Nowak Fired From NASA" which does not have the quotation used in the article. Do AP use the same link for different stories over time, and can we get a better link for the article? ... dave souza, talk 11:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No they don't. The latter reference supports Oefelein's later statement to the police that he had ended the relationship in November (and as it happens, confirming LN's statement that at the time of her arrest, it was "more than a working... less than a romantic" relationship, since it was over). Gwen Gale 18:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A bit of a citation problem

message: Just FYI, should contributors here wish to include information: Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/However whatever. thanks. - Denny 04:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFCU related to this article 

message: I think the problem here is a matter of interpretation regarding what Nowak and Oefelein said.
Let's take the following sentence:
:At the time of her arrest, Nowak described her relationship with Oefelein as "more than a working relationship but less than a romantic relationship.".
Set against a timeline where each character (except for |) represents a week, we get:
????????????????????X   Nowak's statement
OCT |NOV |DEC |JAN |FEB 
2006|2006|2006|2007|2007
Based solely upon Nowak's statement, and assuming that she was being accurate in what she said, all we can deduce is that at the time of the first week of February 2007, Nowak's relationship with Oefelein was closer than just a purely professional relationship but not as close as a romantic one. This is represented by the X in the graph above. While it can reasonably be conjectured that this also describes their relationship in the time prior to Nowak's arrest, we just can't be sure one way or the other, which is why there are question marks prior to the first week of February 2007. Based only on this statement, we can't know if Nowak had a romantic relationship with Oefelein or not, because the information just isn't there.
In revision 115845902, there is the following sentence:
:However, Oefelein later told detectives that he had a two-year romantic relationship with Nowak which he ended in November 2006.
Note the revision number. I'll get to that later.
Setting this sentence of this revision against the timeline above, we get:
????????????????????X   Nowak's statement
++++XXXX               Oefelein's statement
OCT |NOV |DEC |JAN |FEB |
2006|2006|2006|2007|2007
In the sentence of this revision, Oefelein says that he had a romantic relationship with Nowak (represented by +), but that he ended it in November 2006. He doesn't specify which week he terminated the relationship. Because of the ambiguity of Nowak's statement, it can be seen that what Oefelein said doesn't necessarily contradict what Nowak said.
Revision 116212441 of the page says that the end of the Oefelein-Nowak relationship took place in January 2007 rather than November 2006. The Orlando Sentinel article doesn't explicitly support the January 2007 date, but it does say the following:
:According to his sworn interview, Oefelein and Nowak met in 1996 and became friends a couple of years later, after they joined NASA. He said their friendship grew during several years of training together.
:However, Oefelein met Shipman in November 2006 during a training exercise at Kennedy Space Center and they began dating shortly afterward, police said. Shipman is stationed at Patrick Air Force base near KSC.
:Relationships overlap Although Oefelein continued to see Nowak, records show his relationship with Shipman was blossoming.
Again, there is ambiguity in the accounts, but this still doesn't mean that either astronaut's account is inaccurate or deceptive, or that one astronaut's account must necessarily contradict the other's. Even if Oefelein had ended the relationship in January 2007, this would still fit in with Nowak's description of their relationship in February as more than a working one, less than a romantic one, if this is understood as a romantic relationship that has ended but whose emotional ties haven't completely faded away.
The inclusion of the word "however" introduces an editorial slant which forces the two sentences to be read as if they must contradict each other, along the lines of a "he said, she said" dispute, which goes beyond the limited information in the astronauts' words. Including  the word "however" in this section is unwarranted, and furthermore, unfair to both astronauts. Keeping in mind the guidelines set forth by WP:BLP, it is far better to leave the word "however" out of the text, and let the readers interpret the statements as they see fit. --Kyoko 13:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your reasoning is similar to Bill Clinton's reasoning that "there is no sexual relationship with Monical Lewinsky" because at the time he made the statement he did not have a sexual relationship with her. None of that matters, though, because I've already dropped my insistence on including the word "however" for other reasons. --However whatever 19:35, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  much ado about however 

message: Thanks Kyoko. The OR and BLP sides of this are more than enough to leave out that word. Now, only to send things home, I never wanted to stray into this but take it from me, it's spot on what a girl might say, ok? The other person has ended the romantic relationship so to her in truth it's now "less than  a romantic... more than a working." Which is why one won't find much independent support for the notion their statements are contradictory. Haha! So many bois about this wiki. Cheers! :) Gwen Gale 14:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Thanks Kyoko

message: Only for context, a rather sympathetic but pithy column about Nowak. Gwen Gale 19:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: and a bit of context

message: Need to be incorporated into the article. Poor guy: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070525/ap_on_re_us/astronaut_arrested;_ylt=Ai2GAsiCmYTHqW.n4kZSD2ADW7oF Ikilled007 06:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: His reassignment isn't effective until June 1.  The article is updated but it will need slight future-tense-to-past-tense revisions on June 1.  davidwr 09f9(talk) 15:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reassigned by NAVY, no longer with NASA 

message: Naw, it isn't "potentially libelous" unless it it's untrue.  It's well-sourced.  So, I put it back.  Cmichael (talk) 01:50, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is untrue and defamatory.  There is no source from NASA cited as stating that he was "fired" or "terminated".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.182.233 (talk) 20:35, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

text: NASA never fired Oefelein.  And Wikipedia has never cited a source from NASA stating that.  It is libel.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.87.115 (talk) 04:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There also isn't a source from NASA that he wasn't fired. We currently don't have any citations from NASA at all related to his dismissal. What we do have is multiple sources that agree he was terminated involuntarily. Please provide a citation that contradicts those sources before claiming libel. Rillian (talk) 12:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Libel?  

message: The Anchorage (Alaska) Daily News reports that Oefelein thinks, or at least implies, that this article contains inaccuracies:
Q. I was just looking at your Wikipedia page ... there's more on there about the Lisa Nowak stuff than your NASA career. Do you feel like that's kind of come to define you at this point?
A. No, I don't think so. Because that stuff is not necessarily accurate. So, you know, I don't think so. I'm not going to talk about any of that, but anything on the Wikipedia as you know, anybody can put on there. If people are going to use that as fact, they've got some problems.
All in all, it seems to me like the Nowak material is relatively brief, and reasonably well sourced. Does anybody know anything specific about Oefelein's complaint?  If anything is actually broke, then we need to fix it. Cmichael (talk) 01:06, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The choice of the word "dismissed" has been discussed in great detail in a section below.  I would refer 75.15.182.238 to that section for further discussion.  Cmichael (talk) 02:31, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oefelein Claims Article is Inaccurate 

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thread_title: [[:Image:Sts-116-patch.png]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: Under “Personal Life”, could it be added that “He married the former Michaella Davis in 1988.  They had two children and divorced in 2005.”?  (If you need sources, would https://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/Astronaut-in-middle-looked-acted-part-of-space-1813709.php and http://www.astronautix.com/o/oefelein.html do?). I understand and respect that another site was asked to delete the names and birthdates of the children, so I’m not asking for that. Minicarmen (talk) 05:35, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  First wife