Talk:Hiberno-English/Archive 2

message: This is horribly offencive and will be removed immediatly.
*Knacker - itinerant or traveller. A small but persistent group of human pest, where domestic violence, fighting, general lawlessness, non-existent personal hygiene, skip (dumpster) pilfering and inbreading is common. "The knackers are raiding the skip again dad."
--James Brown Monster, 23:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Travellers 

message: I changed the line 'British English, however, remains the greatest influence on grammar, spelling and lexicon on English in <the Republic of> Ireland.' as the language used can be found throughout the whole island of Ireland as opposed to just the Republic of Ireland.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.223.163.6 (talk) 11:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changed 'Republic of Ireland' to 'Ireland' 

message: I am trying to go through the long list of jokey slang words in this article and change the fanciful folk derivations given to proper etymologies (e.g. I just fixed "jackeen" and "jacks"). But it's a mammoth task.  Whoever entered all this text in the entry did no-one any favours -- there is no linguistic basis for any of it, just a desire for folksy whimsy. Help fix it please. Pleidhce (talk) 01:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: False derivations

message: I edited the Dublin English section so that all the facts there are directly derived from Dublin English: Evolution and Change by Raymond Hickey--an actual book by an actual linguist written two years ago.  It's a start, at least.
Why would you presume that someone who found a publisher is the final word. i worked with an old beekeeper who was illiterate but brilliant. When presented with information from the latest  books about beekeeping he would laugh gently and say "That's all very well and it is really  such a pity that the bees cannot read" --Tumadoireacht (talk) 03:07, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changed Dublin English section 

message: I was looking at the list of English dialects in Wikipedia, which is very logically sub-divided. Under "Ireland" I then found Hiberno-English and came to this article. So I expected to then find the different 'dialects' of English as spoken in Ireland listed.
When reading this article, however, it mentioned Dublin and says that the accents here differ from the rest of the country, and it mentions Cork and again says the accents differ from the rest of the country. 
It doesn't mention other accents. I'm not sure if the implication is that Dublin and Cork are exceptions, and the rest of the country all speaks a similar brand of 'Hiberno-English?
I think this article could benefit from at least breaking down the dialects/accents in Ireland (i.e. Republic of Ireland as I assume Northern Ireland is covered under the UK), and ensuring that every area in Ireland is covered. 
I would suggest, for a start, that the distinctive Kerry accent should be kept separate from other accents. I think there may be a distinctive Donegal accent too, but I'm not sure about that.
I know it's difficult because the accents just merge into one another as you travel around Ireland, but you do have that problem in every country.
At the very least could I suggest that the accents be divided into the Cork accent, the Kerry accent, the rest of the country except Dublin, and then Dublin could be divided into two, the general Dublin accent, and the very pronounced accent you hear in the markets in central Dublin (the Dublin equivalent of 'Cockney').
What do others think? 82.35.15.212 06:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree, I gather dialects in the wild exhibit differences every 1 or 2 hundred miles; mass media and other factors interfere with that pattern.  The way Hiberno-English seems set up as a discipline the interest is Irishness rather than dialect I think Hakluyt bean 02:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dublin, Cork and Kerry accents 

message: what is "airing cupboard", "airing cupboard"?
As Time Goes By.
Thank You.
hopiakuta ; [[    { %c2%a1 %c2%bf  %7e%7e%7e%7e  } ;]] 18:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a cupboard (or press in Hiberno-English) over the water heater/boiler where the likes of bedclothes and towels are put after drying to "air" them. Donnacha 22:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please define [[airing cupboard]]. 

message: ""Langer" is a variant used especially in Cork but has began to spread through the rest of the country."
Langer originates with Irish soldiers in the english army stationed in India. Langar monkeys would wake them at all hours and throw crap at them so langar became a term of abuse. This was imported to Cork on their return. Check out http://langerland.com . 
: corrected the link (ar to er) Hakluyt bean 17:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Much American English derives from Hiberno and from Gaelic. The word is from the  Greek. The usage is typically Irish.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tumadoireacht (talk • contribs) 19:57, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Langerhead 

message: As far as I know, the term 'langer' isn't very common in any area other than Cork, although I've heard it being used in Dublin once or twice. Although I'm not absolutely sure of this, apparently, the reason the term 'langer' is common in Cork, is that the term was particularly popular with troops originating from Cork, who were stationed in India. It was originally a reference to the langur monkey's tail, which to the troops, appeared to have a phallic shape. Mushed 17:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Langur monkey 

message: http://www.corkslang.com/ : 
* A disagreeable person - Derivation: 	Unknown, but note 'Élang' - a defect, flaw, weak spot. (Joynt and Knott)
* A penis - Derivation: Unknown, but 'Langur' - a long tailed monkey from India. (Concise Oxford Dictionary) Note influence of the Munster Fusiliers.
* Drunk - Derivation: 	Unknown      Hakluyt bean 17:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  That's enough Langers 

message: Reading the article I see an awful lot of places where some Hiberno-English feature is set in contrast to "English"; except that the HE feature is shared with some or all dialects of American English.  I assume that these were entered by someone who lives in Britain or elsewhere in the Commonwealth, but we should be careful about this sort of thing.
Also, we need to work on citing a whole lot more stuff in here. /blahedo (t) 18:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "English" 

message: i think this is a bit racist, it seems to be full of prejudiced. although some of the stuff is correct, when writing irish english you dont need to write things like 'awk, aye, twil twil twil' and things like that. this should be changed to be more like standard english but without losing the hiberno enlighs aspect —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Daniel625 (talk • contribs) 21:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  a bit racist 

message: "Knacker Derived from the Gaelic 'eachaire' meaning a horse handler..."
Come on ... English Knacker - horse dealer etc.
The Hiberno-English Archive  suggests "n. someone dealing in horses (for excessive profit); pejor. a person involved in shady deals (cf. knack n. a trick, a device); (pejor.) a member of the travelling community; an impotent man < E dial. origin obscure." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.135.197.245 (talk) 10:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  knacker (n, vb) A dealer in old horses and other livestock. Scan. It formerly meant a saddler and harness maker. Ice. knakkr (saddle). Now used as a verb in colloquial E to indicate anything spoilt or ruined or tired-out (knackered). from English words which have a Scandinavian Etymology Hakluyt bean 17:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymologies 

message: So far as I can tell it's English that has been profoundly influenced by features of the Irish language hiberno-english.com.  Quite a lot of what the article contains atm is not really in the category, seems to me. Hakluyt bean 18:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but this is simply wrong.  Of course one may answer "I might" or "I may" in response to that question.  Where did you learn to speak English? [unsigned]
Sorry, I don't know Gaeilge, what does "I might"  mean?
A long time ago in a galaxy far far away...
More seriously, the answer "I might" is not conditional anything; the auxiliary verb :would ,not the auxiliary verb :might, is called conditional. The use is termed a MOOD not a tense; there is no such tense as conditional.
If you have to be wrong, please don't do it on Wikipedia. Froggo Zijgeb 00:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: It's a mood, as indicated my the word "Módh", because one is speaking about potential actions, as opposed to the usual "indicative mood" (definite action) or "imperative mood" (commands). The Irish for tense is "Aimsir". The conditional mood can appear as present conditional, past conditional, or future conditional tenses. Just because English demands the auxiliary "would"/"could", doesn't mean it lacks a conditional mood. 137.43.55.43 (talk) 19:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hiberno-English 

message: Presumably Hiberno-English is spoken in Ireland and Northern Ireland? This isn't stated anywhere - the intro should say so. Ben Finn 21:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Northern Ireland

message: Should the article be called Irish English instead? That was the most common name in the past, to my knowledge, although I don't claim any academia on the subject. Why Hiberno, it's like going back to Roman times. Come to think of it, the Romans never reigned in Ireland. - Gold_heart 12:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the link. Could Hiberno-English be a neologism, WP:NEO, an if that is case, would there be call for a change in title? -Gold_heart 12:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Irish English?

message: Added; how was this essential HE word missed?!86.42.222.157 14:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bucklepper

message: What a load of rot. I've never heard this nonsense in Ireland. This article looks like it was edited by someone whose sum total knowledge of language use in Ireland is based on 'The Quiet Man' and 'Far and Away.' Hollywood Irish is not an actual language, you understand. Would someone PLEASE have a go at making this article less silly? To be sure, to be sure - come off it.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.203.12.243 (talk) 15:15, August 20, 2007 (UTC) 
I've heard the majoritiy of the words here, including 'to be sure to be sure' - sometimes films are annoyingly accurate!
Andrewl957 23:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I built a kitchen with a Kerryman -his two stock expression were greeting  "Any news,Any news?" and when measuring"to be sure to be sure"--Tumadoireacht (talk) 20:03, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  To be sure to be sure 

message: Does anyone actually know the full phonetic alphabet? Do they know what 'alveolar pronunciation' sounds like, or what a monophthong is?  Seriously, is the purpose of this entry to inform, or impress the reader? Because either way I am neither informed nor impressed.
Someone needs to either translate this stuff, or go back to whatever it was before. I'd take informal over needlessly complicated anyday...  83.70.69.112 16:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: IPA is the only way to express in text how a language is spoken.  The only alternative is to add a bunch of MP3 files.  Are you going to do that?  If not, the IPA stays. --Red King (talk) 12:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is an encyclopedia, not a linguistics jounrnal 

message: I think that if someone edited the "personal computer" entry into a detailed, jargon-filled description of the layout of various microprocessor circuits, people would object. And yet that is what has happened to this language article. To be fair, though, the changes on this page bring it into line with the other language articles on Wikipedia - it isn't just this article, it is all of them. I do love the ability to really dig into something that readers enjoy here; you simply can't get that from the encyclopedia on your bookshelf. For that reason I hate to whine too much on this subject, since presumably if we got rid of all the jargon, we would be back to the kind of fluff that was this article before the linguistics geek made it unreadable. But I think it is reasonable to question whether this is a real encyclopedia article (as the comments above do). Perhaps the best of both worlds could be achieved if the technical info was left intact, but was made more accessible with more examples and explanations. I want this info to stay in the article - but I want people to understand it (I want to understand it). Presenting it in such a nakedly inaccessible format does not consider the audience and is frankly quite arrogant. Kgdickey (talk) 01:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just tried to read this article. It is of almost no use to anyone who is not a specialist in linguistics. This is not something just any editor can fix, or I would have tried. It needs an expert who can explain without the jargon. I appreciate that this is likely a difficult task. ៛ Bielle (talk) 01:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What gibberish?  If you don't understand what is going on, then go and read the International Phonetic Alphabet article, same as you would for any other topic you don't understand.  IPA is the only way to use text to indicate pronunciation.  Otherwise we need to record a load of MP3 files.  Are you going to do that?   --Red King (talk) 12:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

text: I have to agree.  This is useless gibberish to the approximately 99.5% of the population who are not trained linguists.  I mean really, the Phonology section could be read absolutely unchanged as a Monty Python skit.  It is so completely incomprehensible to most people that it's actually funny.  How about something useful on this interesting topic. GillArts 04:20, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Red King.  Go read the IPA article.  Trust me, nothing in linguistics is as difficult as it seems.  You will see a lot of jargon, but it always looks way more complicated than it actually is.  If I can understand this stuff, you can too. Thegryseone (talk) 08:37, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is technical gibberish allowed in linguistic articles but not elsewhere? 

message: Though I risk the ever-popular Wikipedian accusation of American bias by even asking, could someone possibly see it in their heart to add a sentence to point out what exactly is atypical about the sentence below?  Which "the" in this sentence is unusual in British English, and why?
*She had the flu so he brought her to the hospital.
As one of those ignorant, ethnocentric, and badly dressed 67 percent myself, I guess I've never heard this sentence phrased the correct way. Xezlec (talk) 06:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto. In "English" English you would not say "the flu", but in Hiberno-English it is likely that you would. This a carry-over from Gaelic where the definitive article can be used for emphasis e.g. Tá an fliú aicí stresses that "She has the flu" whereas Tá fliú aici ("She has (a) flu") lacks any great emphasis. --sony-youthpléigh 15:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe, "she flu to hospital", saves ink. ;~)) 78.19.40.19 (talk) 16:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Very interesting about the Irish use of "the". Any citations? 86.42.91.234 (talk) 12:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  PS: Surely the flu would be on her/uirthi? 86.42.91.234 (talk) 12:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  No citations but it's accurate, I had to read that sentence five times before I realised that speakers of 'English-English' would not use 'the flu' and 'the hospital'!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by ErraticIrishMess (talk • contribs) 02:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definite Article Clarification? 

message: The article mentions the letters a,h and z. I would have thought the pronunciation of "r" (rhyming with oar rather than are)is the most noticeably different letter in hiberno-english 81.62.155.49 (talk) 10:24, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. Text changed - though I'm not convinced the paragraph in question is correctly positioned within the article. Snalwibma (talk) 11:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation of letters of the alphabet

message: Just noticed that there's no mention of the word grand - probably the single most common hiberno-english word (or hiberno-english usage of a word anyway) Any mention of it would probably need to point out the differences in real usage and that of Oirish characters in certain (mostly American, but even the odd British) films!81.62.169.112 (talk) 20:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Grand

message: Just googled this as a fella said it to me and all the results that came up were Irish. It's cute. 86.42.102.87 (talk) 00:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 'Isn't it well for you'

message: Where did this come from? It's a great one. In school in the 1980s it was all the rage as a generic response to 'I'll kick the living shite out of you' and other fine sentiments such as 'I'd hammer ten shades of shite out of you'. I remember one incredibly annoying spiky-haired little fella, who was really tiny, used to say that to everybody who rose to his annoyance and then run with a big smile on him before they got him in a headlock and did the aforementioned. 86.42.102.87 (talk) 00:02, 18 April 2008
also prevalent during my childhood (1950's and 60's) in the predominantly celtic ottawa valley.Toyokuni3 (talk) 16:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  'You and whose army?' 

message: Another editor has queried my deletion of some terms which did not fit this statement in the article: "However, some unique characteristics exist, especially in the spoken language, owing to the influence of the Irish language on the pronunciation of English." (my emphasis) Let me reiterate my position; unless a term is uniquely used in this dialect it does not belong here. Unless its unique usage can be verifiably demonstrated using reliable sources, it does not belong here. It doesn't seem difficult or controversial to me, but there you go. This would be a better place to discuss the matter than on my talk page I think. --John (talk) 18:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scope of the article 

message: OK, where does that come from? Most of us say it to mean 'I understand you now' (as my elderly neighbour just did). Is that the same in British or US English? 86.42.119.12 (talk) 12:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "I have you now"

message: I have T.P. Dolan and P.W. Joyce's studies on Hiberno-English. However, I got in a discussion with a guy who denied the existence of a transitional phase when a community is changing from one language to another: he reckoned the Irish went from speaking Irish to speaking British English without such a phase. I contended that there was a transitional phase, that there had to be such a phase,  and that it was reflected in grammatical forms direct from the old language- e.g. táim tar éis mo dhinnéar. These grammatical constructions, much moreso than Irish words used in English, are for me the solid basis of Hiberno-English. Are there any linguistic studies of societies undergoing such changes that would support my contention of a transitional phase (which seems like basic common sense)? If somebody knows about this, this article would benefit hugely from a linguistically-focused section on this aspect. Thanks very much in advance/Míle bhuíochas as ucht bhur cabhair. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 12:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: When English was adopted in 1600-1800 very few schools existed, and so the poor slotted each word into a Gaelic-style word order as they learnt it. And then copied each other.86.42.221.153 (talk) 12:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are some well  established amusing studies of swathes of Africa where Hiberno_English prevails due to teaching Irish missionary nuns and  priests. The best example is "I usedn't to  do something" versus the cumbersome received UK english of" I did not used to do something".--Tumadoireacht (talk) 20:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help wanted: Linguistic studies on transition between languages

message: Just heard Seán O'Rourke on The News at One on RTÉ Radio 1 saying 'today the Minister [for Finance] was in the bearna baol over the budget'. Nice!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.3.209 (talk) 12:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bearna Baol

message: You're missing how people often use prepositions to express feelings and the like.
For example instead of saying:
He's a mean fella when he's drunk.
people would usually say:
He's a mean fella when he has a few drinks on him.
as in the Irish for a feeling, like:
bhi athas an domhain orm. (The happiness of the world is on me)
Also, in the dublin english theres no mention of how some people mash syllables together, like when people say "howiya" instead of "how are you" and "yungfla" instead of "young fella". Oh, and there's the ever annoying "wilyumee'huwr" instead of "will you meet her".
- Cian, 11:42, 17th April 2009.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.147.172.242 (talk) 11:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: More Grammar Derived From Irish

message: Outside of Northern Ireland, Donegal and around the border areas i've not heard an Irishman using aye for yes, are yous becoming like lilly limp wristed Londoners? 167.1.176.4 (talk) 09:55, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aye for Yes 

message: Does this article include the English spoken in Northern Ireland?  If not, then where is the article on the English spoken in Northern Ireland? Thegryseone (talk) 20:31, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. Trudgill distinguishes between Northern Irish English (the "ScotEng-origin varieties spoken in the north of Ireland (not: Northern Ireland), i.e. Ulster-Scots and Mid-Ulster English") and Southern Irish English ("the EngEng-origin varieties of the south of Ireland").  "This distinction is not coterminous (emphasis in original) with the political division of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland". Soundfiles: NIrEng  SIrEng I'm [dʒæˑkɫɜmbɚ] and I approve this message. 22:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Mid Ulster English. jnestorius(talk) 23:15, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: What About Northern Ireland?

message: Hi. I'm writing an article on this subject and would like to know what Irish children use as truce terms. Truce terms are words used to call a temporary respite in a game to do something like tie a shoelace, go to the loo or discuss the rules. They are often regional. I really would like sources too. Such as regional or folk dictionaries and so on. Many thanks! Fainites barleyscribs 17:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Come on guys! There must be somebody in Ireland who remembers using truce terms at school? Primary school? Pax, pays, tax, keys anyone? Fainites barleyscribs 22:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid I can't give sources but I seem to remember saying 'pause', 'safety', 'break'  or just 'time out'. Either that or we'd shout things and yell stop until the game stopped...
Mostly we used to say  "Touch me before I tell you  and I'll plant you. you heathen Sasenach bastard" in kindergarten--Tumadoireacht (talk) 01:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Truce term]]

message: Doesn't just come from lúdramán, it's a combination of lúdramán and the English loser.
Also added lúdramán since amadán was in the list.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.40.41 (talk) 03:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Loodar/Ludar 

message: What does "slabber" mean - it seems to be a dialect or slang term. Autarch (talk) 15:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Celtbion/slabber 

message: The introduction to this article gives the impression that English in the Pale was established during the plantations of Ireland  during the 16th and 17th centuries when it would much more likely have been established around the time of the Norman conquest of Ireland during the 12th century. The article definitely needs a separate history section to properly explain where all the different influences come from.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.2.157 (talk) 22:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anglo-Norman English 

message: This always refers to a woman, it is not used when one is not sure of sex. Also it should not be spelled 'yer wan' as this is an approximation of its pronunciation in some parts of the country, not a spelling. It could similarly be spelled 'yur wun'. The phrase is 'your one'.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by ErraticIrishMess (talk • contribs) 02:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yer Wan (Your One) 

message: "Local Dublin can feature the word 'ye' for the second-person plural (although the more common Hiberno-English 'youse' is still common)."
This sentence confuses me to no end, it says 'common' too much... Local Dublin uses 'youse' more than ye, and the rest of the country uses ye...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by ErraticIrishMess (talk • contribs) 02:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  2nd person plural 

message: I read somewhere that the term Culchie originates from UCD in the 1960s, where students from the country would go to study Agricultural Science, and were referred to as 'Culchies' by those from the city. Can't remember where I saw that though.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.132.50 (talk) 19:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Culchie Alternative Origin Theory 

message: A common  feature of Hiberno-English is the use of 'less' instead of the England English use of fewer, e.g. I would rather attend less meetings. Perhaps there might be some mention of it in the lexicon? 
Eoin O (talk) 10:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Equally common in British English, I'd say. Unless you can find a source that says it's more frequent in Ireland, forget it! SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 11:24, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

text: I think English speakers everywhere do that. • Anakin (talk) 12:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup - no evidence that less people do it in Britain, or in America! SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 12:26, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The use of 'less' in place of 'fewer'? 

message: Can we remember that this article has to conform to WP:V and WP:RS, just like any other. I have put a lot of time over a long period into trimming out neologism, slang and "I heard it in the pub"-type entries from the "Lexicon" section. I inserted a hidden note into the article reminding folks not to add unreferenced material. Maybe that will help, I hope so. --John (talk) 15:52, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:V]] 

message: The dialect here is even out of date to my grandparents!It needs to be relooked!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.1.112.11 (talk) 12:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The dialect in this page is way out of date! 

message: Being from Dublin I would say that the plural form of "you" should be spelled "yous" rather than "youse" as in the article. Do others agree? If so, I think the article should be changed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.241.118 (talk) 18:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misspelling 

message: It has been my observation that Irish people often use "whenever" when most(?) English speakers would use "when". For example, "I will tell him whenever I see him" would, I believe, mean "I will tell him every time I see him" to English-English speakers, but means "I will tell him the next time I see him" to many Irish-English speakers. I have no idea whether this accurate, whether it applies widely to different Irish-English dialects, but if it is accurate perhaps it could be added? 122.107.58.27 (talk) 06:40, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whenever 

message: Since June 2008 I have been trying to stop the influx of horrible, cute, "heard-in-the-pub" slang and neologisms from swamping this article. Our safeguard against this is WP:V, and I think this needs to be ruthlessly enforced. I asked this question quite a while ago, and inserted a hidden note on a particularly problematic section of the article. What we need is someone with the time and patience to find sources for those things that can be sourced, and then we can finally trim out the dross. It's a nice question whether, failing this, the article in a week or two should be (as at present) 90% unsourced but with some interesting and probably true material, or as a (sourced) stub with potential for expansion. I am leaning towards the latter. What do others think? --John (talk) 18:11, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: John, the vast majority of these sayings are used in Ireland all the time or were used a lot. The phrases here are much more likely to have been heard from parents or grandparents than "heard in the pub". It would nice to have citations for them all, but failing that I think it's better to allow people to decide for themselves what they want to take on board. Some of the older sayings an Irish person might just about remember being used from years ago, and they might be interested in reading these phrases again. I personally would also take the one or two ones I haven't heard before with a grain of salt, the others are many decades or centuries old. Anonywiki (talk) 03:14, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether they are decades, centuries, or months old, verifiability is the only plausible test of inclusion here; otherwise (as we have seen) we get a great rambling list of putative and unverifiable dicdefs. I'm as keen as you are on preserving and even celebrating dialect and language, but this is not Wikipedia's main focus. --John (talk) 05:05, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

text: Unfortunately, John is right. I say unfortunately because it may mean removing a lot of content from this article. Our verifiability policy is clear that challenged material may be removed. I don't really favor enforcing the policy as to things that both of you know to be true, but for which we simply cannot locate sources (in other words, material that neither of you wish to challenge). On the other hand, it may encourage people to make additions without sources if they see that large parts of this article are not sourced. As far as I can tell, there are lots of things in here without either citations or  tags (like the material from the recent disagreement). I think the first step is for each of you to tag uncited assertions that you wish to challenge with  and then we wait a reasonable period (I previously suggested a month) and then remove tagged content for which no references have been produced. Content can always be added back later as references are found.--Chaser (talk) 16:36, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The works of Roddy Doyle, James Joyce, John B. Keane and others must be mines of suitable citations. --Red King (talk) 18:12, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, we need third-party secondary sources which talk about the words rather than primary sources which use them. The alternative would be for articles like this one to expand indefinitely; I love Joyce, to take one of your examples, but imagine if we had to gloss every neologism and pun he used! The William Shakespeare article doesn't do that and neither should this one. --John (talk) 19:54, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Way forward 

message: The website http://www.hiberno-english.com/ appears to no longer be online. The WayBack Machine has it at http://web.archive.org/web/20080616105858/http://www.hiberno-english.com/ - However, I have not changed anything as I am not clear on Wiki's policy regarding archival sites.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.219.189.102 (talk) 08:41, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  hiberno-english.com in References 

message: Has been mentioned on this talk page a number of times, but I think that this article needs gutting. As is, it's pretty hard to tell the wheat from the chaff with it - if I was coming to it for encyclopedic knowledge, I'd go away empty-handed.
I'm happy to start taking chunks out of this article - maybe putting them here or in a non-displaying namespace & putting stuff back in as it gets verified. Just wanted to mention it here first before I started hacking at the thing - reckon anyone seriously interested will respond here, as opposed to most edits, which seem like kids adding their latest favourite words.
If there's no objections, I'll start doing this over the next few days Dave (talk) 23:02, 18 January 2011 (UTC
::This little kid  would like to see a generous list of hiberno-english words retained so that a reader approaching the article for the first time  could actually see a good dollop of  hiberno-english rather than just a gielgudian grapple with rhoticity  and glottal stops. Although WP is not an indiscriminate list  it is also not  a scientific journal[]. A list and some clearly described  science improve this and most articles. I suggest that Dave foment his proposed improvements elsewhere and then present them in this discussion page for discussion. This approved method is underused but useful. The article  needs work without doubt. Even the first paragraph is a joke. But lets not throw the  baby out with the bathwater. Let the article stand untroubled by major demolition until there is consensus. Per our definition, an encyclopedia is a compendium and the  WP highest  aim is  to be a repository of ALL knowledge. Cha bhi fios aire math an tobair gus an tràigh e.--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 02:46, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What use is your well if its water's dirty though? =) I don't know the first thing about guttural stops, so I'm not advocating a technical manual. Saying it's a compendium of knowledge - that knowledge isn't meant to be based on original research. My view would be to get rid of the complete rubbish, take stuff that seems useful & put  tags on it, & then try and clean it the whole thing when it's more managable. Don't mind putting together a page outside of the main namespace as a start Dave (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a plan Dave.You are quite right. Attribution is King after all even if the king snores after dinner ! I think there may yet be a place in the hyperspace world  for a Wikispeculation site or Wikistories where all the salmon that  John  West rejects can swim freely. Editors frpm  the Flann O'Brien  branch of etymological lexicography  could disport themselves there  to their hearts content.It is easy to forget  that this is not the UN, few are watching  and most people do not give a toot, about pages outside their areas of expertise.--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 04:19, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Taking this article to pieces 

message: As mentioned above, I've worked on a redraft of the current page, which can be found here. Most of the material is still intact. I've removed sections that are unsourced, especially stuff that I don't know to be true, and have tried to source refereces for other bits.
Still needs a lot of work, mainly focused on citing the vocabulary and putting main section headings in place.
What do you think? I'd be proposing replacing what we have currently with this & then continuing work in the main namespace Dave (talk) 21:50, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed redraft 

message: Erm...there is actually a difference between the three items mentioned. The scallion is the dull green bulbless variety. The spring onion has a bulb, while a green onion is of a vivid green colour, again bulbless. ‣Mac Tíre Cowag 13:19, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Scallions do have a bulb, although it is quite small. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 18:23, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well they do, but I'm more talking in comparison with the others. It's not scientific (as far as I know), but to suggest they are the same is just wrong. Where I grew up (in Meath) the three terms were used quite commonly, but each referred to a different shape/colour/aspect of this type of onion. Mac Tíre Cowag 01:58, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've a feeling that usage may vary. I never heard of anything but scallions growing up in Dublin, and only came across the term "spring onion" as a British name for scallion when I started reading British recipe books. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 23:50, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think usage probably does vary. I can't say for the rest of the country, but here are some images of what we in Meath (original Royals, rather than inclusive of the newcomers, as their usage will, no doubt, vary from the original usage in Meath) would describe as green onions, spring onions, and scallions: Spring onions (notice the bulb is larger than the "stalk"), Scallions (notice the bulb is the same size as the "stalk" or only ever so slightly bigger), and Green onions (notice the bright green colour, and again a lack of bulb, or at least the bulb is the same width as the stalk). Mac Tíre Cowag 10:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting! I think I would happily call all of those 'scallions'. Certainly the second and the third; the first look a bit on the big side, but I wouldn't have any other name for them - as I said, I had until now simply thought that 'spring onion' was the British term equivalent to Irish 'scallion'. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 11:40, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, but isn't that the beauty of language! Different strokes for different folks, as they say. Even if we take the word "kettle" - many here in Ireland would assume you were talking about the chorded jug used to boil water, or the "steel" jug with spout and lid that sits and whistles on your granny's cooker for the same purpose. Ask an American though, and you'll find that a kettle there can refer to a much broader spectrum of vessels used for boiling any sort of liquid or soup! Or the old chestnut - broiler vs. grill! Mac Tíre Cowag 11:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scallion/spring onion/green onion 

message: Surely, when the Normans arrived the language they spoke was French. Also, the languages used at court were French and Latin. Middle English was still evolving into English. Also, given that the Normans, famously, 'became more Irish than the Irish themselves', then, surely, 'English' did start to arrive into Ireland until much, much later.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artied (talk • contribs) 10:40, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Norman Invasion 

message: I note the following in the text:
the Irish ar ngíthe corresponds to English "at all", so the stronger ar ngíthe go bhfuar ina bfhuil go shó gives rise to the form "at all at all".
"I've no money at all at all."
"ar ngíthe" does not exist in Irish and "ar ngíthe go bhfuar ina bfhuil go shó" is meaningless gibberish. What is more, I am Irish and have never heard anyone say "At all, at all". I have only ever heard this in American films from "stage Irishman" characters. I suggest that the reference be deleted unless a credible source for its by Irish people can be produced.
212.129.68.207 (talk) 13:04, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  At all, at all 

message: There's no mention of the tendency to add a 'd' phoneme between 'r' and 'l' or 'n' in 'Local' Dublin English. E.g 'Herald' being realised as [hɛ:(ɹ)dld], 'girl' as [gɛ(ɹ)dl] and 'puttering' as [pʊtɛ(ɹ)dn]. Can anyone fix this/find sources for this?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.225.183 (talk) 19:43, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  'd' between 'r' and 'l' or 'n' in Dublin English 

message: "Will is often used where British English would use "shall" ("Will I make us a cup of tea?"). The distinction between "shall" (for first-person simple future, and second- and third-person emphatic future) and "will" (second- and third-person simple future, first-person emphatic future), maintained by many in England, does not exist in Hiberno-English, with "will" generally used in all cases." --I'd say this is generally inaccurate 'Should i make us a cuppa tea?' would be much more common than 'shall' which is old fashioned and marginalised to the upper and middle classes i'd say. 90.222.161.11 (talk) 21:22, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Will for shall British 

message: So which i'z' it? RashersTierney (talk) 23:54, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that both are equally acceptable in British English (which is what we use for spelling with in Ireland), my opinion is that it shouldn't have been changed in the first place. As far as I can see, most of it occurs in the lengthy section about regional accents which is one of the few well-sourced elements in the article, and while I didn't go trawling all the way through the history, it looks like the person who put in the work on that used the 'ize' spelling, so I think their preference should be respected. I know the spelling manual of style, when it talks about not changing existing spelling versions, is really referring to US-British differences, but I think that would be a good rule of thumb for the ise/ize difference in British (or Irish, if you wish) spelling too. --ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 00:04, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The use of s rather than z is generally the spelling in the local variant.  RashersTierney (talk) 01:06, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It may be more common, but I don't think it's "generally the spelling". The "z" spelling is given first in the Oxford English Dictionary, for example. The idea that the "-ize" spelling is an Americanism is a misconception, and we shouldn't go around changing articles based on misconceptions! --ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 01:11, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Americanizms really have nothing to do with it. Nor really does the OED, unless it now determines rather than interprets language use. RashersTierney (talk) 01:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If we're not going to rely on dictionaries to indicate what are accepted spellings, what do you suggest as an alternative? And if Americanisms have nothing to do with it, what is your objection to "-ize" spellings? --ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 01:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: So which dictionaries, in your view, should we consider definitive for Hiberno English? RashersTierney (talk) 01:56, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a case of WP:ENGVAR. "-ise" endings are far more common in modern Irish and British English. — Jon C.ॐ 08:03, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: 'Z's or 'S's

message: How could there ever be any Old English retention in Irish English since Irish English only began ca. 1100 at the earliest? Besides there isn't a single example of an Old English retention in that section. Shouldn't that section's name then be changed to "From Middle English". Incidentally are Middle English and Old English hyphenated? This is not the usage I personally have most often observed. Signed: Basemetal (write to me here) 15:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old English and Irish English? (Title of section 3.2) 

message: Currently there is only a little bit on non-rhoticity near the top of the pronunciation section, worth adding its own section? 195.162.87.201 (talk) 15:20, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  non rhoticity 

message: "English was first brought to Ireland as a result of the Norman invasion of the late 12th century, although during that time the Normans did not speak English, but rather Norman-French." - This obviously needs to be rephrased and requires more information to not be complete nonsense because invaders obviously cannot introduce a language they don't speak. It's truly amazing how many WP editors don't bother to  read what they've written and how many other editors don't check even the introduction of articles they work on...  --Espoo (talk) 12:05, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  nonsense in first(!) sentence 

message: I think the phonology section needs vowel charts like those on Scottish English and Welsh English. (suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ) nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 20:04, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not as simple as saying that the page needs a diagram of vowel targets. We need sources for such things. Peter238 (talk) 21:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vowel charts 

message: Talk here about the infobox.  Uamaol (talk) 05:42, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: In the Reflection for emphasis section, the second part, beginning with 'This is not limited only to the verb to be' needs some work.  Back in 2010, the version at  removed a chunk of material that this was referring to.  I'm not sure if this part should also be removed, or if it is unique to Hiberno-English and just needs to be redone a little. 24.144.49.125 (talk) 02:20, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reflection for emphasis 

message: Substituted at 20:30, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment