Talk:Clan Fraser

message: This article will have content tonight. Please do not delete again. I simply add small bits at a time to make sure that things run as smoothly as possible. Thank you for your cooperation. Canaen 04:20, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Starting up 

message: I've noticed two other users suddenly start contributing to this article, most recently CambridgeBayWeather (and I notice your last name, as well). Be you Frasers? I inquire out of pure curiosity. It'd be nice to know whom else is editing an article I thought wouldn't get attention from anyone but myself. Canaen 02:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I am. My father was from Aberdeen. Are you a Fraser as well? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 02:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. My Grandmother Sime came from Dundee (relatives of the name still live there), and though I haven't gotten records past the 19th century, I've reason to suspect the family was forced to come into the city during the Clearances. Canaen 02:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frasers 

message: I've been reading on Southern California's [phttp://www.fraserclan-cal.net/ Clan Fraser Association site], and their webmaster seems to be very much of the opinion that Clan Fraser chifly refers to Clan Fraser of Lovat, and that the lowland Frasers of Saltoun have never really been a clan, particularly because Alexander Fraser of Philorth, Seventeenth Lord Saltoun stressed this. And the Lady Saltoun, apparently, wasn't made Chief of the whole Clan Fraser until 1984. Should we structure the article differently? IE, making the Lovat primary bit (as they have the most interesting/well-recorded history), with the Philorths having mention and another page? OR maybe this page being fairly limited, and much greater effore going into either specific page; Lovat and Philorth? Something Else?Canaen 00:36, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say that this should be a general article about Fraser with a seperate Lovat and Philorth. The way I read the 17th Lords introduction is that this section "(meaning the Frasers of Philorth never belonged to the Highland Clan Fraser)" is correct but not that he is saying the Frasers of Philorth are not a clan, just not the Highland Clan Fraser. I would further suggest that as you are the main contributor to both articles that you do what you think is the best. Having looked at the history of the two pages I see that other than a few spelling and formatting you are the only real editor of the actual material. So go ahead. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 01:30, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very well. Thank you for your thoughts! Canaen 05:06, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Somewhat late but Cam is essentially correct. All Lyon did, and indeed all Lyon has the power to do, is recognise the chief of the name and undifferenced arms (not Clan) which is certainly Lady Saltoun as the heir in law of the elder brother holding that name. As to Clans, the Court of Session held in Maclean of Ardgour v. Maclean that Lyon has no jurisdiction to entertain a substantive declarator of chiefship of a Highland clan, or of chieftainship of a branch of a clan. [...] The question of chiefship of a Highland clan, or chieftainship of a branch of a clan, is not in itself, in my opinion, a matter which involves any interest which the law can recognise. So I see no issue with 'Clan Fraser' and 'Clan Fraser of Lovat' both being Fraser clans with differen 'Chiefs'. Alci12 18:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd never heard about that case; you wouldn't happen to have an online source of it, would you? This could prove quite useful to me in some personal matters.  Canæn  06:41, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  JesseChisholm (talk) 17:57, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Aye, he must have, see Canaen's edit of 3 February 2007. The MacLean of Ardgour causa has recently been discussed, see Talk:Akins#MacLean of Ardgour vs. MacLean clarified. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 14:25, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure of the two Clan Articles 

message: The link for Simon Fraser born 1726 seems to go to a different General Simon Fraser.  -- Beardo 19:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Simon Fraser (general) 

message: There are two numberings - it seems the clan uses a different system to the actual legal peerage.  This ought to be explained, I think.  -- Beardo 19:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there's a lot of confusion over the numbering. Basically, when people do use numbering in general speach, they refer to Lovat as the 18th Lord Lovat. But most Peerage researchers refer to him as the 16th Lord Lovat. There're a lot of issues to it, which I don't really want to get into just now. But if you're real curious, let me know, or you can try to look it up yourself, though I haven't found much online about it.  Canæn  03:02, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lord Lovat

message: Twice now, someone's altered the section structure of the Jacobite risings.
Currently, it's like this:
Jacobite Risings
:Dundee
:Fifteen
:Forty-Five
::Culloden
:Aftermath
But an anonymous IP keeps putting Culloden directly under the main section header. This is a small issue, but Culloden was the climax of the Forty-Five, and it makes sense that our section on it should be a part of the Forty-Five section.  Canæn  03:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jacobite Risings section structure. 

message: === Automated Peer Review ===
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
*Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.[?]
*See if possible if there is a free use image that can go on the top right corner of this article.[?]
*There may be an applicable infobox for this article. For example, see Template:Infobox Biography, Template:Infobox School, or Template:Infobox City.[?] (Note that there might not be an applicable infobox; remember that these suggestions are not generated manually)
*As per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), dates shouldn't use th; for example, instead of using January 30th was a great day, use January 30 was a great day.[?]
*Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally do not start with articles ('the', 'a(n)'). For example, if there was a section called ==The Biography==, it should be changed to ==Biography==.[?]
*Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.[?]
*Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), avoid using special characters (ex: &+{}[]) in headings.
*Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long- consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per Wikipedia:Summary style.[?]
*There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
**allege
**might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).[?] 
*Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
**Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant -  “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
*As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2][?]
*Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]
You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks,  Canæn  07:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reviews 

message: The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
*Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.[?]
*See if possible if there is a free use image that can go on the top right corner of this article.[?]
*There may be an applicable infobox for this article. For example, see Template:Infobox Biography, Template:Infobox School, or Template:Infobox City.[?] (Note that there might not be an applicable infobox; remember that these suggestions are not generated manually)
*As per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), dates shouldn't use th; for example, instead of using January 30th was a great day, use January 30 was a great day.[?]
*Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally do not start with articles ('the', 'a(n)'). For example, if there was a section called ==The Biography==, it should be changed to ==Biography==.[?]
*Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.[?]
*Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), avoid using special characters (ex: &+{}[]) in headings.
*Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long- consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per Wikipedia:Summary style.[?]
*There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
**allege
**might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).[?] 
*Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
**Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant -  “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
*As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2][?]
*Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]
You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks,  Canæn  07:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Automated Peer Review 

message: The following was posted on my talk page. I've copied it here so as to compile various reviews of the article, and so I can turn it into a checklist. A great thanks goes to Ben Macdui for such a detailed and specific review.  Canæn  23:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ben MacDui's Review 

message: It would be incredibly helpful if anyone who is about to re-write a whole section, or make any other major change, would discuss it here first. The article is getting ever-closer to FA, and it's time to be careful. Thanks,  Canæn  22:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Large changes 

message: Should Castle Fraser be mentioned in the list of castles?  Also, I have a few photos of Castle Fraser here if they are useful put a request on my talk page and I'll upload them. Karora 10:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Castle Fraser 

message: Has anyone considered adding a section about the Frasers in popular culture, referencing the series of books by Diana Gabaldon that are centered around a family a Frasers during the time of the Risings and afterward up through colonization in America and the American Revolutionary war. Simon (the Fox) is featured in some of the earlier books of the series as a supporting character.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.102.58.120 (talk) 21:58, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Popular Culture 

message: Where does the Lord of Lords Etan Fraser come into the picture? Should it be a candidate for removal?Heraldic (talk) 17:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lords 

message: === Anjou county hypothesis ===
La Dictionnaire De La Noblesse, Vol 6, published in the 1700's states on page 683 (and forgive my rough translation):"The House of Frezel has not only established itself in France with distinction, but has become even more famous in Scotland, where it has gained renown in the United Kingdom over the last 500 years." Later, on page 684, it states: "The name de Frezel has also changed over the centuries in Scotland into Frazer, due to different pronounciations of language;" And finally, and perhaps most interesting of all, also on page 684, it says Rene Frezel (who was the first recorded Frezel, circa 1030) had a son: "Simon, who went to Scotland, where he established himself and left an illustrious and numerous posterity". It would seem to me that this is a major source of evidence that the Frasers came from a family of French Knights in Anjou, and that all Frasers have a common ancestor in Simon Frezel. Link to document:http://books.google.fr/books?id=Qh8VAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
--Jesspiper (talk) 01:28, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In addition, I can give the names of families who have (had) ancesters, probably in pays d'Ouche and other traditional pays bordering it : Richard Barre from la Barre-en-Ouche (pays d'Ouche), John de Berney, from Bernay, Eure (limit of the pays d'Ouche); Levett, Livet, etc. family from Jonquerets-de-Livet (pays d'Ouche), Baron Botreaux'name from les Bottereaux (pays d'Ouche), Beaumont from Beaumont-le-Roger (limit of the pays d'Ouche), Cantelupe from one of the Canteloup, Canteleu in Normandy (which one ?). Pays d'Ouche was little populated and it is probable that the families were more or less related to each other or knew each other. They prepared the arrival of other one (friends or family) in Great-Britain.Nortmannus (talk) 10:47, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Interesting theories. Some points to note in favour of the County of Anjou: According to the Dictionary of Nobility, the name Frezel evolved into Frezeau over the course of 300-400 years. When "Frezeau" is entered into the following website which you provided: ( http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Frezeau&submit=Valider&client=cdip ) Maine et Loire is given. In other words, Anjou. Also according to the Dictionary of Nobility, Simon Frezel was the second son of Rene I, and therefore would have been unable to inheret the lands of Frezeliere. It stands to reason that Simon would have gone off to stake his own claim of land somewhere, like Scotland; it's all he could do as an alternative to serving his older brother or joining the Church. This was a very common situation for second sons. Simon's father (Rene I) was alive in 1030, and Simon's older brother (Rene II) was alive in 1084. This puts Simon Frezel in the perfect spot time-wise and family-wise to participate in the events of or surrounding 1066. It also explains how every single Clan Chief of Clan Fraser has been named Simon, right up to the current one. Finally, please Google this dirt road in what was Northern Anjou; I'm curious to know why/how it was named as such: La Frezelière, 53200 Loigné-sur-Mayenne, Mayenne, Pays de la Loire, France. It all matches up and makes sense. Quite the puzzle, but all the pieces seem to fit. It appears that the history and origins of Clan Fraser begin on, or near, that dirt road in Anjou... --209.17.153.243 (talk) 19:03, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, yours is interesting too. Generally, the -ière place-names are late medieval creations based on family names that appeared in the 12th-13th century. La Frezelière means "place of the family Frezel" and is located in the former County of Maine, a county disputed between the dukes of Normandy and the counts of Anjou. Your theory seems to be better supported. Regards.Nortmannus (talk) 10:35, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate your stating that my theory is the greater supported; you clearly have detailed knowledge of the subject/area and your input has helped me establish my theory all the more. Furthermore, it takes intellectual honesty and courage to say what you did, so you deserve recognition for that. I am of Clan Fraser of Lovat myself, but also happen to speak French and studied history in university, so it was combining all those traits that I was able to put together the above theory. Your discussions helped solidify it for me, so thank you. Jesse Fraser --209.17.153.243 (talk) 20:07, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  La Dictionnaire De La Noblesse 

message: La Dictionnaire De La Noblesse, Vol 6, published in the 1700's states on page 683 (and forgive my rough translation):"The House of Frezel has not only established itself in France with distinction, but has become even more famous in Scotland, where it has gained renown in the United Kingdom over the last 500 years." Later, on page 684, it states: "The name de Frezel has also changed over the centuries in Scotland into Frazer, due to different pronounciations of language;" And finally, and perhaps most interesting of all, also on page 684, it says Rene Frezel (who was the first recorded Frezel, circa 1030) had a son: "Simon, who went to Scotland, where he established himself and left an illustrious and numerous posterity". It would seem to me that this is a major source of evidence that the Frasers came from a family of French Knights in Anjou, and that all Frasers have a common ancestor in Simon Frezel. Link to document:http://books.google.fr/books?id=Qh8VAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
--Jesspiper (talk) 01:28, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anjou county hypothesis 

message: The fact the Frezels, as far as it is the original spelling of the surname, could come from the village Anjou in Isère, Rhône-Alpes (as it is written here http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=rwfurtaw&id=I96678 ), in the south-est of France seems to be irrelevant. The fact the Frezels could originate from the county of Anjou is also dubious. Geographically and historically, the first statement does not make sense and the second one is poor documented. There were no people from the far region of Rhône-Alpes in the army of William the Conqueror and this region was not in the cultural area of Normandy. In one word, there were very little connections between the Channel civilisation and Rhone river civilisation at the time of the Norman Duchy. Concerning the county of Anjou hypothesis, we can find in the Dictionnaire de la noblesse (link above), it could be true only if the ancestors of Fraser arrived in Scotland at the time of the Platagenêt in the 12th century. If they were already in Scotland before, it means they would have been among the followers of William the Conqueror who participated to the battle of Hastings or came to Scotland just after it, like many others. Were there knights from Anjou at that time ? I do not think so. Moreover Frezel is not an attested surname in Rhône-Alpes and in Anjou until recently, but in Normandy, look here : http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Frezel&image.x=0&image.y=0 and here http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?numero=0233113&periode=3. The Furtaw source says John Fraser was born in Normandy, but the father Oliver was born in Anjou, Isère, look here http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=rwfurtaw&id=I96678. It is a non sense, why would have a Rhone Alpe man immigrate to Normandy in the Middle Ages and taken a Northern French name Frezel ??? Concerning the link with the county of Anjou, The Dictionnaire De La Noblesse mentions the very first known Frezel of Anjou in 1030, later as the source above http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=rwfurtaw&id=I96678 mentions an Oliver Fraser in 1020, strange thing. Frezel is not a name from Anjou too. I think the Frezel from Touraine and the Fraser from Scotland could have rather a common ancester in Normandy. I think Anjou is certainly a misspelling for Ajou, today in Eure departement in Normandy, where the name Frezel is clearly attested until today. Phonetically [a] before a consonnant becomes very often a nasal vowel in Norman, so [ã]. Concerning the location we know that many barons and knignts who established in Great-Britain originated from villages in the pays d'Ouche in Normandy like Ajou, f. e. the Ferrers (Ferrières-Saint-Hilaire, etc.) Nortmannus (talk) 23:00, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: In addition, I can give the names of families who have (had) ancesters, probably in pays d'Ouche and other traditional pays bordering it : Richard Barre from la Barre-en-Ouche (pays d'Ouche), John de Berney, from Bernay, Eure (limit of the pays d'Ouche); Levett, Livet, etc. family from Jonquerets-de-Livet (pays d'Ouche), Baron Botreaux'name from les Bottereaux (pays d'Ouche), Beaumont from Beaumont-le-Roger (limit of the pays d'Ouche), Cantelupe from one of the Canteloup, Canteleu in Normandy (which one ?). Pays d'Ouche was little populated and it is probable that the families were more or less related to each other or knew each other. They prepared the arrival of other one (friends or family) in Great-Britain.Nortmannus (talk) 10:47, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Interesting theories. Some points to note in favour of the County of Anjou: According to the Dictionary of Nobility, the name Frezel evolved into Frezeau over the course of 300-400 years. When "Frezeau" is entered into the following website which you provided: ( http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Frezeau&submit=Valider&client=cdip ) Maine et Loire is given. In other words, Anjou. Also according to the Dictionary of Nobility, Simon Frezel was the second son of Rene I, and therefore would have been unable to inheret the lands of Frezeliere. It stands to reason that Simon would have gone off to stake his own claim of land somewhere, like Scotland; it's all he could do as an alternative to serving his older brother or joining the Church. This was a very common situation for second sons. Simon's father (Rene I) was alive in 1030, and Simon's older brother (Rene II) was alive in 1084. This puts Simon Frezel in the perfect spot time-wise and family-wise to participate in the events of or surrounding 1066. It also explains how every single Clan Chief of Clan Fraser has been named Simon, right up to the current one. Finally, please Google this dirt road in what was Northern Anjou; I'm curious to know why/how it was named as such: La Frezelière, 53200 Loigné-sur-Mayenne, Mayenne, Pays de la Loire, France. It all matches up and makes sense. Quite the puzzle, but all the pieces seem to fit. It appears that the history and origins of Clan Fraser begin on, or near, that dirt road in Anjou... --209.17.153.243 (talk) 19:03, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, yours is interesting too. Generally, the -ière place-names are late medieval creations based on family names that appeared in the 12th-13th century. La Frezelière means "place of the family Frezel" and is located in the former County of Maine, a county disputed between the dukes of Normandy and the counts of Anjou. Your theory seems to be better supported. Regards.Nortmannus (talk) 10:35, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate your stating that my theory is the greater supported; you clearly have detailed knowledge of the subject/area and your input has helped me establish my theory all the more. Furthermore, it takes intellectual honesty and courage to say what you did, so you deserve recognition for that. I am of Clan Fraser of Lovat myself, but also happen to speak French and studied history in university, so it was combining all those traits that I was able to put together the above theory. Your discussions helped solidify it for me, so thank you. Jesse Fraser --209.17.153.243 (talk) 20:07, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ajou (village of Normandy) hypothesis, not Anjou (village of Rhône-Alpes and county of the Pays de Loire) 

message: The Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs, according to their official website recognizes both a chief of Clan Fraser and a chief of Clan Fraser of Lovat. The Scottish Clan and Family Encyclopedia like wise recognizes them as separate clans. The Clan Fraser is the Lowland clan and the Clan Fraser of Lovat is the Highland clan. Currently the Clan Fraser article is entirely about the Highland clan. We did once have an article for the Lovat branch but it just contained duplicated info from the Clan Fraser article and so was re-directed. What I am proposing to do, as per the official sources, is transfer the info currently in the Clan Fraser article to the Clan Fraser of Lovat article and then re-write the Clan Fraser article with info about the Lowland clan.QuintusPetillius (talk) 11:44, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: The two Clan Frasers

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Clan Fraser. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110726201953/http://www.clanchiefs.org/p/chiefs.html to http://www.clanchiefs.org/p/chiefs.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:50, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Perhaps it's not best to describe the clan as being from the Scottish Lowlands, a region with imprecise boudaries. The Britannica article on the subject says: "Lowlands, also called Scottish Lowlands, cultural and historical region of Scotland, comprising the portion of the country southeast of a line drawn from Dumbarton to Stonehaven; northwest of the line are the Highlands." Using that definition, places referred to in the Wikipedia article such as Fraserburgh are on the Highland-side of the line.       ←   ZScarpia   14:13, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe we could change to both Scottish Lowlands and Highlands. I think it might have been originally stated as Scottish Lowlands to distinguish the clan from the predominantly Highland Clan Fraser of Lovat.QuintusPetillius (talk) 10:33, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: A couple of clan/family maps: . Roughly, the Frasers seem to have been based on the area around Fraserburgh and the Frasers of Lovat on the area around Inverness, at either end of the southern side of the Moray Firth.      ←   ZScarpia   23:17, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scottish Lowlands