Talk:Henry H. Bauer

message: The last two sentences in this article were copied directly from []. Direct quotes should always be set off with quotation marks or otherwise designated as such. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 15:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Direct quoting 

message: I'm removing a prod that stated:
I think that I have addressed the issues on the prod: he has made over the time regular contributions with books, papers and articles, on Isis (journal) his Loch Ness monster got reviewed, he seems a recognized expert on the field of the study of the scientific method, with his book "Scientific Literacy and the Myth of the Scientific Method" being used on university courses and cited on studies about what texts are used for education, and I have added a few more sources. With all above, and with having been a Emeritus Dean and still being a Emeritus Professor for Virginia Tech, it should fulfill WP:PROF criteria --Enric Naval (talk) 01:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  removing prod notice and notability tag 

message: looks like there is another famous Henry Bauer , so maybe the redirect Henry Bauer will become a stub some day. --Enric Naval (talk) 01:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  another henry bauer 

message: Doh, I am now going through the article history, and turns out that there was already a quite complete wiki article on him . I also found a transcript of one of his seminars hosted on that same site, which I have added as a source. I'll keep reviewing the history and adding stuff that I find there --Enric Naval (talk) 02:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please be aware that that particular wiki is not a reliable source; it is devoted to advancing AIDS denialism and has few or perhaps just one contributor. It has been the subject of spamming by its creator here on Wikipedia in the past. If these are notable links, they'll be hosted on a more reliable source somewhere. MastCell Talk 16:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have noticed it :D I only used their transcription, so readers can check the content of his ideas about AIDS. If there are doubts that the transcription might be incorrect, there I'll remove the link inmediately --Enric Naval (talk) 04:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  wiki with some info 

message: One thing. Looking at his latest article from Fall of 2008 he doesn't deny that the HIV retrovirus exists. What he denies that a) the HIV test accurately detects the retrovirus b)the HIV retrovirus be the cause of AIDS illness. I don't know if he previously held that HIV itself didn't exist, but, unless I read that paper incorrectly, he currently accepts the existance of the HIV retrovirus. He also makes a statement on 2007 "doctors, scientists, and others who question whether human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) causes acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS)". The sentence "questioned that HIV caused AIDS" appears to be accurate to me... It could maybe be expanded to "questioned the accuracy of HIV tests, and that HIV causes AIDS" --Enric Naval (talk) 17:30, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: AIDS denialism is a blanket term encompassing both those who deny the very existence of HIV (an extreme view even by the standards of AIDS denialists) as well as those who accept the existence of the virus but consider it harmless. That said, I would actually favor wording, such as you are proposing, which goes into more detail about what, exactly, Bauer is denying rather than simply labeling him a "denialist". MastCell Talk 18:14, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See the section "AIDS denialism". In his book on the subject, and in the articles he published in the pseudoscientific journal he edited, Bauer claims that HIV tests do not detect a virus, HIV has never been isolated, the genetic sequence/proteins/particles called HIV by the scientific community is/are really something else, and AIDS is not caused by an infectious virus. There's no point in putting all this in the lead since it is covered later. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 18:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, doh, you are right, I'm sorry about that. I just re-checked the article, and I can see "a successful isolation of whole virions of HIV directly from an AIDS patient or an HIV-positive person has never been accomplished or published. (...) assumptions that have not been verified by the only certain means, namely, examination of authentic virions". My bad. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: denial of HIV itself

message: *Sev Sternhell (Emeritus Professor of Chemistry at the University of Sydney) Quadrant (magazine), July-August 2007 volume 51 issue 7-8 pages 125-126
He devotes much more space to another inevitable question: "How could so many scientists be wrong about HIV/AIDS?" Here he is on his own territory, having been active in the field of history and philosophy of science for a number of years. Part of his answer is both pertinent and indisputable: science and medicine often progress precisely by disproving well-established and universally accepted theories, and he cites important examples, from the bacterial cause of ulcer formation to the phlogiston theory of combustion, from modern physics to causes of kuru. 
Kuhn, Popper and others get an airing, but more interestingly and originally, Bauer observes a deeper underlying cause which, not to mince words, amounts to a recent corruption of scientific research by the pressures of funding, media, conflict of interest and political interference, which lead to the formation of scientific monopolies and the erosion of the trust which is essential to the scientific enterprise. To which I would add the insidious temptation of worthy causes, of which climate change is a recent, obvious and important one: once a scientist engages with a good cause he or she very often selects or even falsifies results. However, that is another book. If you want to understand the HIV/AIDS story, read this one. 
I'm looking through reviews on his books.  There are reviews in Nature (journal) and Science (journal) on his Velikovsky book; these reviews are very positive and recommend at least this work of Bauer's.  There's an Isis (journal) review of his lock ness book; also very positive.  The only review (a quote from it is above) of his HIV/Aids book that I could find treats Bauer as a sort ofKarl Popper (who for a good period of his career could, if I remember correctly, have been and was called a creationist). --Firefly322 (talk) 23:13, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm failing to see your point.  Reviews of his books are supposed to mean what, other than journals review all books.  It's certainly not an endorsement of his AIDS denialism.  OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 23:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Reviews of his Velikovsky book from Science and Nature would certainly be relevant here. Isis, maybe. Not aware of any notable reviews of his AIDS-"dissident" tract, though I'm interested that so many chemists feel comfortable instructing us on epidemiology, virology, and clinical infectious disease. I would probably feel a bit less certainty lecturing them about double bonds. But I digress. MastCell Talk 05:14, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Numerous references to Bauer's Velikovsky book are in the article already, but additional sources could certainly be added. On the AIDS denialist material, it's interesting to note that the author of the above "review", Severin Sternhell, is a friend of Bauer from his former university, and that "Quadrant Magazine" is an Australian right-wing, anti-PC publication, consistent with the observation that AIDS denialism often arises from political and personal views. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 14:18, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Quote from Review of ''The Origin, Persistence and Failings of HIV/AIDS Theory''

message: The Washington Post, November 16, 1994, Wednesday, "When Sorting Fact From Fiction, Ask To See the Evidence", John Schwartz, Washington Post Staff Writer
Is global warming natural or man-made? Did an asteroid impact wipe out the dinosaurs?On these and dozens of other questions on the frontier of science, says Henry H. Bauer, a professor of chemistry and science studies at Virginia Tech, people place too much trust in the opinions of scientists arguing on one side or the other. By doing that, they give up the skepticism that is the hallmark of science and foolishly accept scientific authorities over scientific evidence. Scientific squabbles are natural, though, since science rarely proves anything outright. Instead, it disproves things very well, as new observations and theories invalidate old ideas. So instead of striding purposefully toward the truth, science generally proceeds by backing away from what's been demonstrated to be false.
Many of the things we're trying to figure out might be beyond our ability to prove, and the answers we do get might take longer than we'd like. "We've become so enraptured with all the goodies science has brought us, we fall into the thinking that science can get us the goodies we want immediately -- and that is sometimes not the case," Bauer says.And some topics simply don't lend themselves to scientific analysis: like trying to use pliers to drive nails, the tools don't fit the job. No telescope will ever find God, and no experiment could prove one religion better than another. The idea that it's so hard to prove something doesn't sit well with people who want a lot of certainty in their lives. "We want certainty when what science offers us is different degrees of possibility or plausibility," Bauer said. Of course, unsatisfying results aren't limited to the world of science. A jury doesn't find a defendant "innocent," after all -- merely "not guilty."
Still, Bauer said, "Around the late 19th century, science sort of took the place of religion as the authority in society. And then to have to realize that what we've accepted as the authority doesn't have any certain answers is hard to swallow."
:Not a reliable source.OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 23:34, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Another reliable source discussing Bauer

message: It is claimed that a book by Bauer is widely used in university courses. A secondary source is needed to support this statement. Google searches and original research are insufficient. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 21:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: University courses

message: The dictionary definition for "libel" makes no distinction between "opinion" or adjudicated fact, as follows:  "a statement or representation published without just cause or excuse . . . tending to expose another to public hatred, contempt, or ridicule."  Therefore, the fallacious labelling of Henry Bauer a "pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist" is libelous. The labelling is fallacious because it is based on the false premise that Bauer has done no scientific research. That Bauer has not done laboratory research on HIV/AIDS is beside the point because any experienced scientific researcher is qualified to evaluate the published research results of others, as Bauer has done on the subject of HIV/AIDS. Phaedrus7 (talk) 00:11, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Some (but not all) jurisdictions recognize a distinction between a statement of opinion and a statement of fact, when it comes to defamation. That's probably why it's been mentioned above. In any case, I don't think you're clear on what pseudoscience is. Calling someone a pseudoscientist does not mean that they've done no research. That's an erroneous inference on your part. A pseudoscientist is someone who makes claims using the language of science, but without adhering to its methodology. They may or may not have done any research of their own. MastCell Talk 00:24, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

text: No one here is calling Bauer a pseudoscientist. This has been explained repeatedly. The most recent academic treatment of Bauer and his ideas includes the "pseudoscientist" charge. This is highly relevant to the article and, as MastCell stated, does not rely on Kalichman's assertion that Bauer has done no scientific research related to HIV/AIDS. Kalichman takes issue with Bauer's methodology as well as his views on topics such as UFOs and the Loch Ness "monster". Phaedrus7 disagrees with the reliable source; this is insufficient reason to exclude it. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 16:45, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition of "libel" 

message: The two references for the statement "based upon the substantial body of research confirming that HIV exists, is infectious, causes AIDS, and that HIV tests are accurate.[25][26]" are currently dead links.
I'd suggest replacing them with "The Evidence That HIV Causes AIDS" http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/HIVAIDS/Understanding/howHIVCausesAIDS/pages/hivcausesaids.aspx
and "HIV is the cause of AIDS"
http://www.avert.org/hiv-causes-aids.htm  — Preceding unsigned comment added by On A Leash (talk • contribs) 05:19, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead Links 

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thread_title:  External links modified