Talk:Baltic states/Archive 2

message: Etymology
first of all, I think someone has really got carried away with this Etymology thing. Its 5 times longer than the Etymology of the Baltic Sea. I personally think it's useless unless someone wants to add the ideas to the Baltic Sea article. Thats why I moved it down away, it's long and boring, a lot of strange ideas presented. So if it was up to me, I'd get rid of this Etymology all together and in case anybody thinks it's really unclear that the Baltic States got their name from the Baltic Sea, perhaps this could be bold out somewhere. 
Culture, History, Politics
What has Baltic states had been acquired by Soviet Union later... were called "bourgeois nationalists  to do with culture? It would fit well under history if anything. At the same time the language would go together with the Culture section until someone takes time and comes up with something more serious for the section other than In Soviet times this made them appear as the "West" of the Soviet Union. Politics section is just a resent history thats all. For my eyes the current structure is all mixed together without much sense, thats why I took the culture parts from different sections and the history parts from the Culture and Politics and restructured the article accordingly:culture put under Culture and history and politics under History. Or is it only me who thinks the things are currently strangely mixed together? politics/history and things like Estonia has shown a strong desire to identify itself as Nordic under culture? If anything such things would make sense under the recent history etc.--Termer 04:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, that someone was me, the Etymology part of it is normal lenght and explains more possibilities than Baltic Sea (I took part of the text from there acctualy), it is much longer because the usage of term is explained, which is another reason why it should be at top. The text merged from Baltic republics, IMHO, depicts how USSR influenced culture. The politics section depicts current events and why it happens. Just because something happened in past it dosen't mean that it has no influence today and by puting it under history you limit it, because the future plans and current events don't realy fit under history. Estonian desire to be Nordic, maybe indeed fits under politics. I see no good in lenghtly sections describing varios topics (though by this logic etymology section needs to be splited in two as well). I resectioned article when I was merging Baltic republics, that was hardly a week ago, there hasn't even been enough time to work on it. ----Xil...sist! 16:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: why merge? revert by Xil [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baltic_states&diff=163787510&oldid=163763494]

message: Hello, I still think the etymology part is way over proportioned  and since the most for it speaks of the Baltic Sea, not the Baltic states, it should be moved over there.--Termer 07:47, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The term Baltic states comes from Baltic sea it's the same thing, isn't it ? --~~Xil...sist! 14:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

text: It is same thing linguisticly, if States are named after the Sea then the name of the States has the same etymology and meaning as that of the sea ~~Xil...sist! 18:48, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I have to go along with Termer, Mare Balticum existed long before a notion of Baltic states. The name of the states comes from the sea. If it were the Viking Sea because of a Viking presence 2,000 years ago, one would not say the Viking states were named for the Vikings, one would say they were named for the Viking Sea, which long ago was named for the Vikings. PētersV 02:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Etymology traces the original meaning of a name, Baltic sea is another term, it dosen't explain the meaning of the "Baltic" - perhaps you have noted that Baltic states are also refered to as "Baltics", which is plural of "Baltic" ? The etymology of name for Baltic sea would include other names for the sea which this article does not and this is not duplicate of anything - I wrote most of it my self and for this article. ~~Xil...sist! 14:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't peeked today, but the last time I compared etymology sections, I thought yours here definitely improved on the one at Baltic Sea :-) and was thinking it really should go there as the "master" etymology for the origin of "Baltic" (then a link here to the section there). PētersV 14:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly my point! Why Baltic states have much more detailed etymology about the Baltic Sea than the Baltic sea article itself? Also I think culture and history are much more important sections for this article but currently the reader gets stumbled into long and detailed etymology about the Baltic sea instead. Nobody is saying that the Etymology is bad or anything. Like  PētersV pointed out, it's better than the one in Baltic sea. However I think it would be much more important to promote the cultures and history of the Baltic states , that makes it what the countries are all about, not the name that they got it after the sea next to them. Thats why I'd narrow the Etymology considerably down, move it and link it to the Etymology of the Baltic sea, perhaps even start a new article under :Category:Etymologies and take the reader right into the culture part that should be the primary calling card for the states instead of the Etymology of the Baltic sea I think.--Termer 17:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So you want to shorten up this section so that other incomplete sections/articles look better ? It is approximately same lenght as other sections and stays on the topic (which is to explain the original meaning of the word not what was named so first) if the reader wants to know about something else they most likely will look for it in the first place and won't read the article, this is a webpage not a book that's why it is better to keep with the structure used in several articles where etymology is on top --~~Xil...sist! 21:14, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

text:  you know what, once 2 guys tell you the same thing, maybe there is something to it, please consider that and move the Etymology about the Baltic sea where it belongs. Thanks--Termer 21:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

text: yep, the point was to narrow it down and move the most of it that speaks of the Baltic sea to the relevant article not to get rid of it all together.--Termer 02:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology and usage of the term

message: *Here is an example of the use of THE BALTIC STATES AS UNION REPUBLICS OF THE USSR in The New Encyclopaedia Britannica - Page 676   please scroll down to the last entry.--Termer (talk) 19:03, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not ambiguous, it simply deals with the fact that the Baltic states were occupied by the USSR. —Zalktis (talk) 09:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here again, the question concerns the occupied Baltic states, which most of us agree continued to exist as legal entities, despite the creation of Soviet SSRs on their territories. —Zalktis (talk) 09:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Once again, this is a obviously shorthand for 'Soviet-occupied Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania'. —Zalktis (talk) 09:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Instead of equating "Baltic states" with "Baltic provinces", I read this as a backwards projection of a later entity (interwar independent states) on the equivalent territory of the former Empire. —Zalktis (talk) 09:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, we have the statement that new states were formed from the breakup of the old Empire. An independent Finnish state did not exist before the breakup of the Russian Empire. Finland gained independence and became a state. Compare the parallels with the !3 Colonies that gained independence to become the USA. The USA did not pre-exist as an entity before the Declaration of Independence. The same can be said of the Baltic states. —Zalktis (talk) 09:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: It is common practice to say, for example, that Pakistan was once part of the British Empire, even though the state of Pakistan did not exist in imperial times. What is meant is that the territory of present-day Pakistan was part of the British Empire. Hence, as in the quote, the Russian Empire included the territory of the present-day Baltic states, Belarus, and Ukraine, even though concepts like "Ukraine" and "Belarus" had no administrative meaning during the Tsarist period. —Zalktis (talk) 09:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, this is a sloppy backwards projection based on the situation today. —Zalktis (talk) 09:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, you have shown rather convincingly that "Baltic states" is a commonly accepted term for Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania. :-) Still thinking. —PētersV (talk) 04:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I have taken the uncouth liberty of answering your points individually above. Please excuse this disruption of the dialogue flow, but I felt that answering some other way would be even more unwieldy. — Zalktis (talk) 09:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously trying to cut the Gordian knot here has become harder than pulling hen's teeth (at least on these talk pages), because Sovereign nation in the English language has a broader meaning than referring to just the Navajos, or the Cherokees, or any other Native American tribe. Dr. Dan (talk) 03:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

text: In all fairness, citing Wikipedia is self-referential. "State" capital "S" is sovereign country ("nation" can also refer to a people as in your example, so there one needs to distinguish (people) nation from nation-state). "State" small is is member of federation/association (per Wiki definition, OK, I ignored my own admonition about being self referential). :-) PētersV (talk) 22:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ambiguous use of "Baltic states"

message: Current suggestion The Baltic states first became independent in the aftermath of the First World War in 1918. is a bit wrong. Lithuania was independent until 1795. And Lithuanians only reestablished independence in 1918. M.K. (talk) 16:02, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see M.K.'s statement "as quite a stretch". Certainly Polish becoming the official language of the PLC doesn't negate the fact of Lithuania's independent existence any more than whether the upper classes became Polonized. It remained a distinct state, unoccupied and as independent as any other, in the time frame in question, prior to the partitions of the PLC. Dr. Dan (talk) 06:00, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The USSR-German Aggression Against Lithuania p. 378 Lithuanian nation lost its independence for the first time in 1795 when the Lithuanian State was incorporated in the Russian Empire. Case close. And now it is OT. M.K. (talk) 09:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm sure you meant to say autonomy. Right? Dr. Dan (talk) 06:06, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for catching it but no, I meant to say "authonomy", exactly what it said on WP. thought it was a dialect or something and just copypasted it over. This "Lithuanian authonomy" has actually spread further than WP. Check it out: ; --Termer (talk) 06:55, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At least we can get it right on WP. God forbid that authonomy should get more "google hits" than autonomy, and therefore we get arguments claiming that it's the preferred and correct version to use. Btw, may I inquire as to what your native language is? Dr. Dan (talk) 15:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding formulation

message: This is very biased writing, which may be acceptable in a political treatise, but not in a historical document. The use of sarcasm is unacceptable. 
1: In June 1940, the Red Army occupied the whole territory of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, and installed new, pro-Soviet governments in all three countries. Following rigged elections, in which only pro-communist candidates were allowed to run, the newly "elected" parliaments of the three countries formally applied to "join" the USSR in August 1940 and were annexed into it as the Estonian SSR, the Latvian SSR, and the Lithuanian SSR.
Example 2: The new Soviet-installed governments in the Baltic states began to align their policies with current Soviet practices. According to the prevailing doctrine in the process, the old "bourgeois" societies were destroyed so that new socialist societies, run by loyal Soviet citizens, could be constructed in their place. 
(58.175.202.174 (talk) 03:40, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Helen, both your examples are factual recountings of events with no interpretation attached. In particular, your first example doesn't even mention that election results were released to the press in London from Moscow by Tass, accidentally, and published, 24 12 hours before the "election". Furthermore, there is no "sarcasm" in either of the examples you provide. The "quotes" are appropriate.VЄСRUМВА  ♪  13:32, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baltic States and Occupation of the Baltic States 

message: Please note that the German version of this page includes Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) as part of the Baltic states. This should be included in the English version since this is not a international regional union such as Benelux, but rather simply a international region. 216.99.54.62 (talk) 17:59, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Realistically speaking, regardless of what other Wikipedia versions might contain, it would seem rather far-fetched to include Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) as part of the Baltic states. Dr. Dan (talk) 18:22, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Konigsberg was never considered a Baltic State--not every country bordering on the Baltic Sea is automatically a Baltic "State". VЄСRUМВА  ♪  04:00, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Actually the real problem is the joyous welcoming of Nazis and widespread participation by the locals in the annihilation of Jews--alas, Nazi propaganda. VЄСRUМВА  ♪  04:07, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That statement is somewhat confusing. Can you elaborate a little on what you meant? I'm thrown off track since we were discussing Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) here. Dr. Dan (talk) 13:24, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I ran the Baltische Staaten article through a translator. I did not see mention of Konigsberg, but I did find the issue I mentioned. Perhaps I misunderstood, the issue mentioned here is in the German article on Konigsberg? VЄСRUМВА  ♪  16:46, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: For some reason the German link from the "Baltic States" links to Baltikum. This maybe the cause for the confusion. Just the same, Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) isn't part of them.  Dr. Dan (talk) 15:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Correct on both counts. VЄСRUМВА [TALK] 16:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Agreed, I updated the link. VЄСRUМВА [TALK] 03:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting how my point led to this whole conversation. Where is the definition of Baltic States? Is it set in stone somewhere on a legal document? I think not, therefore it is up for discussion. And Vecrumba, you have problems. 216.99.54.62 (talk) 16:23, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It really doesn't matter what German WP may consider to be the "Baltic states", this is English wikipedia and thus names are dependent upon common English usage, see WP:COMMONNAME. BTW, I suggest you refactor your comment regarding Vecrumba per WP:NPA. --Martintg (talk) 18:29, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually no it is not strait forward, for instance the Encyclopaedia Britannica entry on the "Baltic States" says that Finland and Poland could also be included in the definition of Baltic States. As I initially stated, the Baltic States are not an international regional union such as Benelux, but rather simply a international region, therefore there is debate. e.g. is Andorra a southern-European, or a western-European nation? And I find Vercrumba's comment (denial of history) offensive, so I will not "refactor" (not a real word) it. If he wishes to apologize to me that'd be fine though, because my Russian grandfather fought to save his Latvian family. 216.99.54.62 (talk) 05:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Encyclopaedia Britannica says "The name has sometimes been used to include Finland and Poland" otherwise its straight forward: "Republics of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, situated on the eastern shore of the Baltic Sea." If anybody wants to say it in this article on Wikipedia that Poland (Finland is already mentioned) is also sometimes called a "Baltic state", whats the big deal, just go ahead.--Termer (talk) 03:28, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no big deal here. This is not about the Baltic Mare Nostrum. Termer, go ahead and include Germany, Denmark, and Sweden too if you think it's important. It would be much harder to include Norway but you could give it a try. And why should Russia be excluded? As anon 216.99.54.62 told Vecrumba, his Russian grandfather fought to save his Latvian family. Besides it too borders the Baltic Sea. And dear anon, I imagine your grandfather did this in 1944-45. What was he doing for Vecrumba's family in June 1940? Dr. Dan (talk) 03:49, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: note

message: Whomever chose "Baltic states" as the title, does not know proper English. In standard English a proper name should have both initial letters capitalized. Baltic States is correct. Slaja (talk) 03:53, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Except it isn't a proper name of anything; it's just a label. - BilCat (talk) 04:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Right you are, ! We may also browse through this book, "The Baltic states: Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania": I would not argue that David Jones Smith "does not know proper English" :))). Cherurbino (talk) 09:06, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: title

message: Goodness me! The article seems to list Iceland as a Baltic state. No, not even in the broadest sense it is! Have I misread it somehow? - SirteP (talk) 16:49, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iceland? 

message: The term limitrophe states does not deserve a mention in the intro section, if anywhere at all. In reference to the three Baltic countries it has only been used used in some obscure French sources but is otherwise not widely known. In fact, the combination of "Baltic states/countries" and "limitrophe" yields only about 700 hits on Google, many of them leading to Wikipedia and its derivatives. --Vihelik (talk) 00:52, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Limitrophe states 

message: The three Baltic countries used to be called "Baltic states" since they were states of the Soviet Union, today the proper term is Baltic Countries.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Onyxstarr (talk • contribs) 13:11, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: In this context "state" means Sovereign state, and in any case these countries are widely referred to in reliable sources as the "Baltic states". --Nug (talk) 20:28, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  They were colloquially (including Finland) known as the Baltic states after independence, during occupation (USSR, Germany, USSR), and after regaining independence. There was no such thing as a Soviet "state" except for "the" Soviet state. Common English usage/scholarly terminology prevails.PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 21:18, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The term "state" is misleading and no longer used 

message: Territory was clearly defined in 1918 close to Lithuania proper. Either do not put maps from 1920 that were changing during 1919-1920 Lithuanian-Polish war or explain what does it represent correctly. The map represents nonsense which can be easily seen in Soviet-Lithuanian Treaty of 1920. Maps from 1919 should be explained as they represent still ongoing Lithuanian Wars of Independence.
EMPerror (talk) 11:58, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're talking about this then yes, that's not particularly useful. Worse, the old caption was very clearly and deliberately misleading - does anyone really think that a Polish "propaganda map" would show Vilnius not in Poland?VolunteerMarek 12:16, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, map used for early propaganda when Suvalkai were occupied. Later maps extended claims to add newly occupied Vilnius and reduces claims in failed complete occupation of Suvalkija. It is map used for propaganda and should not be here, or should be explained as such.EMPerror (talk) 12:28, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

text: We probably need a better map clearly showing the Brest-Litovsk dividing line, occupation zone as of the signing of the agreement, and superimposing the eventual Baltic states and Poland. I'm not clear, however, who are you saying is the purveyor of propaganda here and to what purpose? VєсrumЬа ►TALK 20:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maps of 1920 

message: What about Königsberg/Kaliningrad? --84.61.149.75 (talk) 14:14, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Upon gaining freedom from the Russian empire, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, the provinces on the Baltic, became known as the Baltic states, that nomenclature eventually dropping Finland, leaving just other three. Königsberg now Kaliningrad has a different history and is not a "Baltic state" in the geopolitical meaning of that term. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 19:40, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: One might wonder how a fact, previously included in the article, has ended up not in it. You know white washing works better when you insert the fact and then explain why this is "wrong", not when you ought right try to deny it even being possible :D ~~Xil (talk) 14:27, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Königsberg/Kaliningrad 

message: There is obviously an Estonian bias in Economics section. I think we should update this section with more objective information including all three of the Baltic Countries, because the Wikipedia is not a business or investment attraction platform where you can exclude parts of information just to make your country to look good. EqualizeWorld (talk) 19:36, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: What, specifically, needs to be fixed. I don't see any obvious adverts for foreign investment. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 20:27, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economics 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hi. I was wondering if anybody who actively works on the Baltic states, Estonian, Lithuanian and Latvian articles, would be interested in launching your own Wikipedia:The 1000 Challenge (Baltic), based on the Wikipedia:The 1000 Challenge (Nordic) and Wikipedia:The 10,000 Challenge. The idea would be to try to bring about 1000 article improvements and creations on this region as an enjoyable challenge and potentially things like National Contests with prizes. If you'd be interested and think it's something you might regularly contribute to sign up below. If there is interest we can move this to a project somewhere and set something up, thanks.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:16, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the fine work I've already seen you accomplish. :-) VєсrumЬа ►TALK 02:29, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  1000 Baltic Challenge 

message: #♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:23, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the fine work I've already seen you accomplish. :-) VєсrumЬа ►TALK 02:29, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Participants

message: A single-sentence mention of this does belong the lead, if the entire article is about the grouping of what are the baltic states. As for the reference, fine, we can use any of the references used on the other wiki page. For example Estonia - Nordic With A Twist. It is unobjective and POV to keep a mention of this from the lead. JonSonberg (talk) 12:30, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the reason on why you were blocked. Instead of discussion, you just keep edit-warring. This doesn't belong in the lede as that is already mentioned somewhere in the article and there are two users that don't approve with this addition (me and Xil against you). – Sabbatino (talk) 13:17, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I claim that it belongs to the lead, because it's about the very definition of the article. It would not belong to the lead if it were about some random historical fact. But this is about the definition of the article itself. JonSonberg (talk) 13:19, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: their behaviour??? Does that behaviour include making nasty unfounded hostile hateful racist attacks on their neighbors in Finland? Or contaminating Wikipedia with that kind of ugly hatred? or maybe the hate mongers in Finland have reached a new low in what they mean by "sophisticated".  Rjensen (talk) 20:58, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nordic identity of Estonia 

message: I referred to this article to refresh my memory regarding the location of the Baltic States. The small unlabeled map in the infobox did not do the job. Do any of the watchers have a problem with adding this image:
Zipbop (talk) 10:02, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support this, but we need to determine where it should be placed. – Sabbatino (talk) 10:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can a useful contemporary map be added? Suggestion 

message: Everything listed under the "definition controversy" is directly quoted and referenced. Estonian references are listed there because most of the controversy comes from estonia - most of the communications in estonia in the last years has ignored the word "baltic". If the latvian government has said or done something similar, then that could of course be added as well. The same goes for lithuania, where I know that in the past, lithuania sometimes defined itself as central european. In short, this is not only about estonia defining itself as nordic. This is about the fluid definition and usage of the term "baltic states". It seems that at least estonia does not want to use this term  and so the controversies should be mentioned to keep the article up to date with modern happenings. A good example is when a foreign journalist uses the word "baltic state" in context of estonia, and then gets corrected in an estonian politician's answer. I can get references from video interviews, this happens often. In short, good relations and cooperation with neighbours is important but estonia does not want to be seen as a baltic state. Being listed on a map together with LV and LT is often considered culturally ignorant in Estonia. It's like forcing belgium to accept the definition of being french. There's nothing wrong with france but it is not the cultural identity of Belgium.  SørenKierkegaard (talk) 14:45, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Haven't we already discussed same thing few months ago?? This is article about Baltic states. So weather some Baltic state belongs to some other groupings is not relevant here. Relevant are only arguments that challenge the concept of Baltic states somehow. So if somebody simply says that country X belongs to area Y (eg Estonian politician claim Estonia is part of Nordic states, Eastern Europe or whatever), it has nothing to do with concept of Baltic states. It is relevant only if he/she adds that Estonia should not be considered as Baltic state. So in "Definition controversy" chapter there is currently only one relevant claim (by Estonian president Kaljulaid), rest of them don't mention anything about concept of Baltic states and doesn't belong here. Minnekon (talk) 21:09, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  This user tries to push his POV and looks like he tends to confuse certain things. This "definition controversy" doesn't belong here as there's no such thing. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:50, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if someone notable challenges concept of Baltic states, it should be mentioned in article. Preferably it should come from secondary source, not by interpreting original source like now. "Definition controversy" is clumsy title for that though as "Baltic states" does not have definition in classic sense. "Baltic states" are simply those states that are recognized as such. Minnekon (talk) 20:25, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

text:  Go check the references on the article. No original research done. Directly quoting the president(s), the primine minister, the foreign ministry, etc. This is not my POV but the reality. Editors from outside Estonia are just likely not very familiar with what is happening in estonian politics.  SørenKierkegaard (talk) 00:10, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Meaning of original research in Wikipedia is not what you seem to assume it is. It does not only include statements without source or with unreliable source, but also otherwise properly sourced statements, which are used to prove original ideas and conclusions. From rules: If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. Example of this is concluding that if former PM of Estonia says Estonia is Nordic, then he must have meant that Estonia is not Baltic. Don't try to read minds. Here is an example of his actual opinion about Baltic states The Prime Minister: Unity among the Baltic countries strengthens the alliance. Minnekon (talk) 18:51, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

text: The references in the article support the text, but not why that text should be in this article. I checked most of the references and all of them talk about Estonia as a "Nordic" country, but only one (the first one) actually criticizes the term "Baltic States" and none of the valid criticism from that article is even included in the text. Instead of actually criticizing the term "Baltic States", the text currently provides many citations for how Estonia is a "Nordic country", which does not at all preclude it from being a "Baltic sate". No longer a penguin (talk) 08:58, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't understand the logic here. 1) If estonia says it's a nordic country, can it also be a baltic country in the same time? Usually it doesnt work like this (baltic states == baltic countries). 2) If estonia says it's a nordic country and it's currently listed under the "baltic states" article in wikipedia, a clarifying subtopic should be included about how the definition is often not followed in real-life. But yes you are right, a referenced sentence is missing about why this phenomenon is even happening (academic sources vary in their explanation from PR purposes to ethnic & cultural reasons)SørenKierkegaard (talk) 11:52, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why the hell can Estonia not be a Nordic Country (if it was actually in common use) and a Baltic State? There are plenty of geographical groupings where countries overlap under at least some definitions. And that's the point, unless you can show that being Nordic is somehow exclusive from being Baltic, then most of the content in the section you included is irrelevant for this article. It can be (and I see it already has been) included in the article on Nordic countries instead, leaving only the criticism of the term "Baltic States" here. No longer a penguin (talk) 14:28, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

text:  (Added some visual aids to No longer a penguin's point). Renata (talk) 15:21, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I got to agree with Renata here, it is not an either-or situation here, there are many dimensions to the term. A Baltic state could be a country that borders the Baltic Sea, or it could be a country were a Baltiic language is spoken, or could be a country with a shared history. In each case the grouping contains a different number of countries. Sources also tell us Estonia is also a Finnic country, a northern European country, an eastern European country and a post-Soviet country. But there is an overwhelming number of sources that says Estonia is a "Baltic state", so that is never going to change in Wikipedia. --Nug (talk) 20:08, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I understand the underlying logic. And it's self-evident that estonia will never be erased from the "baltic states" article. So yes the logic above is correct. Also there's no criticism towards the "baltic states" definition because why should there be?  I do not agree that post-soviet and nordic are equal definitions - first is a historic adjective and the other is a geopolitical term which can be used to locate a country on a map. But ok great, lets assume a country can be both nordic and baltic. I don't personally care either way. In the academic sources, the nordic theme is connected to the baltic theme. In other words, the academic sources focus on estonia moving away from the baltic definition and closer to the nordic definition. So the issue seems to not be with the underlying topic but with the lack of agreeable sources on the article page which support the reasoning behind listing this topic on the article page? SørenKierkegaard (talk) 22:05, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia has to reflect what the sources say. If 1000 sources say Estonia is a Baltic state and 200 say Estonia moving closer to a Nordic country, then all Wikipedia can say is that Estonia is a Baltic state which is moving closer to a Nordic country. Estonia isn't even a member of the Nordic Council, so it is pretty difficult to argue that Estonia is a Nordic country. But all three Baltic states have observer status in the Nordic Council, so maybe one day in the future if they become full members then we can say all three Baltic states are also Nordic countries. --Nug (talk) 20:24, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

text: So this BS is back again? IIRC it was agreed that this WP:Fringe concept can be explored in a seperate article. So let's explore your sources for the section. Kaljulaid - acctually said the opposite, opening quote summerizes nicely: "As the Baltic states have so many similarities, they need to work closely together. Instead of using loaded terms like "Nordic" or "Baltic", Estonia's new president wants to talk about a "Nordic Benelux", referring to likely-minded countries on the northern rim of the EU", Rõivas - 1. says that Estonia aims to achieve Nordic standard of living, prizes Baltic air policing 2. Is about Estonia taking part in some event Nordics also participated, doesn't really talk about the issue 3. Acctually is about New Nordic concep he is pushing, but it still apears to be about Estonia becoming more like Nordics, at a glance I didn't see anything about it not being Baltic. Then we have Estonia country profile on BBC, which only brings up that Rõivas has said something about "New Nordic", doesn't critisize the concept of Baltics at all. Next an article about how Estonia building in Expo looked, only says that Estonia is Nordic, nothing about Baltics. Then there's an article in Estonian that appears to still be mostly about Estonia being Nordic. Seems it asks at one point, if Estonia is Baltic and answers that opinions differ, but doesn't seem Baltics are mentioned in opinions quoted after this and furthermore these appear to be opinions of random school kids. I assume it's from that essay competition mentioned in text. Then there's an Academic paper entitled "Estonia Gravitates Towards Sweden: Nordic Identity and Activist Regionalism in World War I" so also nothing to do with critisizing the idea of Baltics. Then an article about conference on Estonia being Nordic, but that's also not about Baltics. And some references to Ilves that didn't work for me. So all in all we got a lot about Estonia being Nordic, but it has very little to do with this article's subject matter or what this section purpots to be about - it is not enough to have a reference for what each individual sentence says, there needs to be proof for what is said in general, otherwise it is WP:SYNTHESIS ~~Xil (talk) 07:24, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, concur with your analysis. --Nug (talk) 09:14, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition controversy 

message: Hi, someone claimed the majority of estonian residents are proficient in russian. That is simply not true according to stat.ee. I did an export of the data from stat.ee (total nr of people who have claimed to know russian). Maybe for language skills it makes sense to do a skills table per three countries separately. To verify it by yourself, you can go here and choose the table RL0436 SørenKierkegaard (talk) 22:49, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That table, RL0436. I don't think it means what you think it means. It measures language proficiency in foreign languages, i.e., languages other than mother tongue. You can see it obviously by grouping by mother tongue (or by the fact that Estonian is among foreign languages). According to that table, there are 528 553 people who speak Estonian as mother tongue and Russian as foreign language. According to table PC0435, there are also 383 118 people who speak Russian as mother tongue. Tell me the sum is not a majority or please self-revert your edit. No longer a penguin (talk) 12:54, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Maybe, I don't know. But in that case you need to rephrase your sentence because right now it makes it sound like the majority of estonians are proficient in russian as a foreign language. Because the previous sentence was about learning russian. SørenKierkegaard (talk) 14:11, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, according to those statistics, the latter statement is also true, the majority of estonians (those with Estonian as mother tongue) do know Russian (528K of 887K). Nevertheless, I reworded into a more general statement, without focus on ethnicity. No longer a penguin (talk) 19:13, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language skills in the three countries 

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thread_title:  External links modified