Talk:State-sponsored terrorism/Archive 1

message: In the section on South Africa, I added a brief sentence mentioning the arms sales to Loyalist terror groups in Northern Ireland.  In the 1980s, Armscor, South Africa's government-owned arms manufacturer, sold a large number of captured PLO weapons that had been recovered by the Israelis to the UDA, UVF, and some other groups (see the Wikipedia entries on those groups for mention of the sale).  So I think that qualifies. 193.61.200.145 18:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  South Africa 

message: Some definitions with sources of what SST is would help. --Philip Baird Shearer 12:33, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitions of state sponsored terrorism with sources 

message: Is the sponsorship of clandestine organisations behind enemy lines in a war or armed conflict "state sponsored terrorism"? --Philip Baird Shearer 12:33, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have not come across any such definition. Support for a guerilla army that targets enemy soldiers/installations but not civilians is not state sponsored terrorism as it does not involve terrorist activities per se in the rigid definition of what terrorism means. Idleguy 14:35, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  War and SST 

message: Eg East Germany and its relationship with the Red Army Faction, Libya and the PIRA. Was the USA sponsorship of Afghan fighters during the Soviet Afghan War SST?
I see this area as full of "not neutral Points of View". :-(
--Philip Baird Shearer 12:33, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed - though, I think qualifying statements about the nations involved in the accusations of the U.S. would help NPOV it. JG of Borg 21:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I have taken this part out for now as the link provided admits that facts are not certain. Unless there is a more verifiable account of direct US involvement and US intent to expressly target civilians in a manner common to terrorist MO I don't think this belongs here.--Kalsermar 22:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you for giving me a chance to repsond. The article states in several places that the facts are uncertain:
*No public records of the bombing campaign exist, and the former officials said their recollections were in many cases sketchy, and in some cases contradictory.
*But whether the bombings actually killed any civilians could not be confirmed because (...) the United States had no significant intelligence sources in Iraq then.
*Regarding the schoolbus: Mr. Baer, a critic of the Iraq war, said he did not recall which resistance group might have set off that bomb.
As for citing intent, it was clearly the intent of Libya to blows up PanAm flight over Lockerbie, it was clearly the intent of Saddam Hussein to aid homicide bomber's families in the Palestinian areas and it is clearly the intent of the Iranian government to promote terrorism in the middle east, they admit, no make that boast about, that themselves. I'm sure I could name many more.
Moral relativism is grouping Libya, Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, North Korea, Saddam Hussein et al in the same vein as the USA or other democratic states.
This piece does not state that the US Government directed a terrorist campaign against the Iraqi people, merely that the CIA has assisted (to which extent and with what success is not known) Iraqi opposition groups in their campaign against the Hussein regime. Terrorism furthermore, is targetting civillians, not governments. The whole idea of terrorism is to terrorize the population.
One final point, please sign your comments with four tildes (~) in the future.--Kalsermar 22:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Different types of state sponsored terrorism and not nPOV 

message: I have removed Israel from the list of historical examples of state terrorism. The retaliation against the Munich Olympics terrorists does not qualify as terrorism of any sort. It is an example of covert military action, directed against people who were themselves combatants. It did not target innocent civilians.
Bill 11:43, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Clementduval, please add an "Israel" section with allegations of state-sponsored terrorism (with citations of course).  I just happened upon this article and was surprised Israel isn't listed.  There must be claims.  That said, if the only Israel-SST claim in the article was the hunt for the Munich killers, I would have to agree with Billposer's first argument for deletion.  Tempshill 20:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I support the deletion of the Israeli SST section... if the Munich reprisals are terrorism, then this list should include almost every covert military action ever. I think that at that point terrorism would lose its meaning. Unless the objective is to convey that terrorism is omnipresent... which I don't think is a credible assertion.
--72.240.201.51 03:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israel 

message: Add Libya to the historicaql section. Robin Hood 1212 22:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Libya 

message: Can we have some sources please? I've tagged Cuba mercilessly but there are many claims that don't have any sources at all. Also, at present the US is apparently accused of "protecting Luis Posada Carriles, and North Korea". Good grief! That must be some job!--Zleitzen 09:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I copy edited the USA section and the above is now gone.  Tempshill 20:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Come on, there's plenty of state sponsored terrorism on Israeli part. Far more than Iran.
i couldnt agree more. wikipedia talks about being neutral and no POV, but if it is terrorism when Usama Bin Laden does it, then i feel it is terrorism when Israel does it. but if you say this, people on wikipedia accuse you of being anti semetic. israel is the reason we have terrorism in the middle east and our government leaders who are owned and operated out of israel, who undyingly support israel are the reasons we were attacked on 9/11. Keltik31 23:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By "NPOV", wikipedia means, that it is not against the official POV of the US government. You are "anti-semitic" if you disagree with Israeli government policy. The fact that Arab people are semites too, and that thus, Bush is the biggest anti-semite since Hitler, is POV.... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 23:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

text: You are certainly not anti-Semitic for opposing Israeli government. Anyone has a right to oppose any government. You are also free to add a section about allegations of Israel's SST, provided it's substantiated. However, simply stating your opinion ("far more than Iran") would most certainly not pass the POV check, and alleging that "our government leaders" are "owned and operated out of israel" is very likely to be interpreted as anti-Semitism. IgorSF 05:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Israel? 

message: Someone has added an extraordinary section on Cuba. It is large, entirely unsourced and deals with many complex issues that must have reliable sources. I have removed it. All unsourced material should be removed from this page immediately. I hope other editors understand this and follow my lead.--Zleitzen 01:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cuba 

message: How exactly where the mujahedeen in afghanistan terrorists whilst they were fighting the soviet union? {Truth 06}
:I think that if these 'mujahedeen' were trained and armed by CIA in neighboring Pakistan, they couldn't be called resistance movement, since patriots are usually not get paid with US dollars and armed with american weapons that is sold to terrorists and tyrannic governments such as Pakistan. You need to learn the difference between two words Talibs and Mujahedeen. Mujahedeen is a partisan.  Considering you are Australian, I suggest you the following situation. The Australian aborigines are trained in Vietnam by Russian instructors and armed with Russian weapons, and paid with Russian rubles. Do we call these aborigines soldiers, partisans, freedom fighters? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.184.225.28 (talk) 08:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mujahedin in afghanistan? 

message: Does the Sinking of the Rainbow Warrior, in which French Government agents murdered a political opponent in New Zealand, count as terrorism? If so, France should be added to the Historical section. Hypnopomp 10:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By the terms of the definition, this would arguably be "State Terrorism" rather than State Sponsored Terrorism. Epeeist smudge 12:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  France 

message: Israel is guilty of state-terrorism. Here's some:
In October 1956, the Israeli air force shot down an unarmed Egyptian civilian plane, killing 16 people including four journalists, in a failed attempt to assassinate Field Marshall Abdul Hakim Amar, second to President Nasser, at a time when the two countries were not in a state of war. This was a preplanned operation, thus unlike Israel's downing of a Libyan civilian airliner with 110 killed as it was lost in a sandstorm two minutes flight time from Cairo, towards which it was heading. This February 1973 action took place while Israeli airborne and amphibious forces were attacking Tripoli in northern Lebanon, killing 31 people (mainly civilians) and destroying classrooms, clinics, and other buildings in a raid justified as preemptive
In February 1973, Israel shot down a civilian jet over the Sinai, killing 110 people. The plane was then lost in a sand storm. It was about 2 minutes flight time away from Cairo. No confusion, no ambiguity. The orders came from the highest center of the high command. Now this was sort of noticed, there were a couple of references to this in the middle of the KAL 007 business. Predictably, a series of lies were produced, in the New York Times and elsewhere, saying that the situation was totally different because Israel has taken responsibility and paid compensation. If you look back, you find that Israel did not take responsibility, and refused to pay compensation. 
They agreed to something else, what's called ex gratia compensation, meaning just sort of pure humanitarian aid, which is easy enough because we paid for it. But they refused to pay compensation, because that would imply responsibility, and they refused any responsibility. In fact, what they did is exactly what the Russians did: they put a couple of pilots on television, and they told how what they did was exactly right and just, and they tried to blame the French pilot, he didn't know how to fly... Couple of days after that, Golda Meir came to Washington. She was asked no embarrassing questions about this; the press didn't bother. And she returned home with new military aircrafts. That's the way the US responded in that case. There was also editorial comment. The New York Times, which was outraged beyond anything about the Russians, it also had something to say in this case. It had an editorial saying that "No useful purpose is served by acrimonious debate over assignment of blame". That was the phrase in this situation of tension...
For the New York Times's treatment of the Israeli airplane atrocity, there's Editorial, "After Sinai," New York Times, March 1, 1973, p. 40 ("No useful purpose is served by an acrimonious debate over the assignment of blame for the downing of a Libyan airliner in the Sinai peninsula last week"); Editorial, "Tragic Blunder," New York Times, February 23, 1973, p. A32 ("there simply was a series of dreadful blunders"); Terence Smith, "Israelis Down A Libyan Airliner In The Sinai, Killing At Least 74; Say It Ignored Warnings To Land," New York Times, February 22, 1973, p. A1.  An excerpt:
The Israeli Cabinet in a communiqué said that the jetliner had been intercepted as a "last resort. . . ."  The Cairo radio . . . [said] the pilot reported that he had been having radio difficulty and had lost his way because of bad weather.  Shortly afterward, the radio said, the pilot radioed that the Israelis were demanding that he land. . . .
Official reaction was guarded.  Premier Golda Meir expressed it in a statement issued last night that said: "The government of Israel expresses its deep sorrow at the loss of life resulting from the crash of the Libyan plane in Sinai and regrets that the Libyan [sic; the pilot was a Frenchman subcontracted from Air France] pilot did not respond to the repeated warnings that were given in accordance with international procedure."''
On Prime Minister Meir's smooth visit to the U.S. after the airplane bombing, there is for example, John W, Finney's "Mrs. Meir In U.S. For 10-Day Visit," New York Times, February 27, 1973, p. A1; John W. Finney, "Ms. Meir Says Israel Feared a Suicide-Bombing by Airliner," New York Times, March 2, 1973, p. A4 ("Mr. Nixon gave assurance to Mrs. Meir, who is seeking $515-million in new credits and aid from the United States for additional weapons, 'of continuing United States support'").
After numerous lies -- including that the French pilot was not authorized to fly the jet plane -- Israel confirmed that there had been an "error of judgment" and agreed to make ex gratia payments (which were paid by the United States) to the families of victims "in deference to humanitarian considerations," while denying any "guilt" or Israeli responsibility.  I have sources for this too, like Terence Smith's "Israel Erred in Judgment On Libyan Jet, Dayan Says," New York Times, February 25, 1973, p. A1 ("'we erred -- under the most difficult of circumstances -- but that does not put us on the guilty side'"); Terence Smith, "Israel Decides To Pay Families of Crash Victims; Government Move Avoids Any Implication of Guilt," New York Times, February 26, 1973, p. A1; "Israelis Announce Payments In Crash," New York Times, March 7, 1973, p. A8 ("Israeli officials have not accepted full blame although they have stated that several mistakes were made, including some by the French pilot of the airliner").  
For false claims by apologists that Israel "immediately accepted responsibility" and "paid reparations," see for example, Michael Curtis, "Flight 7: Faulty Analogy," New York Times, October 2, 1983, p. E18; Martin Peretz, "Washington Diarist," New Republic, October 24, 1983, p. 50.
There should be a section for Israel. Like pre-independence when Palestine was occupied by Britain.
In 1943 PM Yitzhak Shamir wrote the article Terror for the paper of Lehi, where he proposed to “dismiss all the ‘phobia’ and babble against terror with simple, obvious arguments.”  “Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war,” he wrote, & “We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle.” “First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today, and its task is a major one: it demonstrates in the clearest language, heard throughout the world including by our unfortunate brethren outside the gates of this country, our war against the occupier.” There's plenty of Zionist terrorist acts we can refer to, such as those referred to in our pages on Irgun and Lehi
Including regarding the 2006 conflict with Hezbollah and before in it's invasion of Lebanon from 1982-onwards. For example:
In March in occupied Lebanon, reaching new depths of "calculated brutality and arbitrary murder," a Western diplomat familiar with the area observed, as Israel Defense Forces (IDF) shelled villages, carted off the male population, killed dozens of villagers in addition to many massacred by the IDF's paramilitary associates, shelled hospitals and took patients away for "interrogation," along with numerous other atrocities. - The Guardian, March 6, 1985
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“Israel has located most of its army camps, weapons factories and military installations near or inside civilian communities. If a Hizbullah rocket slams into an Israeli town with a weapons factory, should we count that as an attack on civilians or on a military site?”
“it can be known beyond a shadow of a doubt that Israeli army camps and military installations are based in northern Israeli communities.”
“is that the 12 soldiers who were killed on Sunday in Kfar Giladi by a Hizbullah rocket were, under Egeland’s definition, “cowardly blending” with the civilian population of that community. We know there are still civilians in Giladi because their response to the rocket barrage was quoted in the Israeli media.”
“On Tuesday, the BBC’s Katya Adler reported from the northern community of Kiryat Shmona” “she had to shout over the rythmic bark of what sounded like an Israeli tank close by firing into Lebanon.” “it does raise the question of how much of a civilian target Kiryat Shmona really is.”
“Throughout the four weeks of fighting, the BBC have had a presenter and film crew at the top of an area of Haifa known as the Panorama, above the beautiful Bahia Gardens. As the name suggests, from there the film crew have had an unrestricted view of the port and docks below and the wide arc of heavily developed shoreline that stretches up to Acre.” “If Hizbullah’s primary goal is to kill as many civilians as possible in Haifa, it seems to be going about it in a very strange manner indeed -- unless we are to believe that none of its rockets could be fired the extra 1km needed to hit central Haifa. Instead, as is clear from the view shown by BBC cameras, the port includes many sites far more “strategic” than the roads, bridges, milk factories and power stations Israel is destroying in Lebanon: it has the oil refinery, the naval docks and other installations that, yes, I cannot mention” “The shrapnel can kill civilians nearby, of course, but it can also kill soldiers -- as we saw at Kfar Giladi” - Hypocrisy and the Clamor Against Hizbullah, How “Indiscriminate” is Hezbollah’s Shelling?, JONATHAN COOK, Counterpunch, August 9, 2006
‘"found numerous cases in which the IDF [Israeli army] launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military objectives but excessive civilian cost. In many cases, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians."
“In fact, of the 24 incidents they document, HRW researchers could find no evidence that Hizbullah was operating in or near the areas that were attacked by the Israeli air force. Roth states: "The image that Israel has promoted of such [human] shielding as the cause of so high a civilian death toll is wrong. In the many cases of civilian deaths examined by Human Rights Watch, the location of Hezbollah troops and arms had nothing to do with the deaths because there was no Hezbollah around."
“to anyone living in Nazareth, it was clear the rocket attack on the city was not indiscriminate either. It was a mistake -- something Nasrallah quickly confirmed in one of his televised speeches. The real target of the strike was known to Nazarenes: close by the city are a military weapons factory and a large military camp. Hizbullah knows the locations of these military targets because this year, as was widely reported in the Israeli media at the time, it managed to fly an unmanned drone over the Galilee photographing the area in detail -- employing the same spying techniques used for many years by Israel against Lebanon.
One of Hizbullah's first rocket attacks after the outbreak of hostilities -- after Israel went on the bombing offensive by blitzing targets across Lebanon -- was on a kibbutz overlooking the border with Lebanon. Some foreign correspondents noted at the time (though given Israel's press censorship laws I cannot confirm) that the rocket strike targeted a top-secret military traffic control centre built into the Galilee's hills.
There are hundreds of similar military installations next to or inside Israel's northern communities. Some distance from Nazareth, for example, Israel has built a large weapons factory virtually on top of an Arab town -- so close to it, in fact, that the factory's perimeter fence is only a few metres from the main building of the local junior school. There have been reports of rockets landing close to that Arab community.
How these kind of attacks are being unfairly presented in the Israeli and foreign media was highlighted recently when it was widely reported that a Hizbullah rocket had landed "near a hospital" in a named Israeli city” “very "near" that hospital is an army camp” - Israel, Not Hizbullah, is Putting Civilians in Danger on Both Sides of the Border, War of Media Deception, JONATHAN COOK in Nazareth
Counterpunch, August 3, 2006
User:Green01 9:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of Israel 

message: I had carefully gone through the article and corrected numerous factual errors and unsourced POV claims. Everything carefully explained in edits summaries. This was reverted without explanation. Please explain.Ultramarine 09:39, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Totally disputed 

message: I propose that  List of acts labelled as state terrorism sorted by state should be merged into this article. Both articles seems to deal with an identical subject and much material is duplicated on both pages. Thoughts? Ultramarine 09:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The two terms per se have differences. State terrorism is basically the state's actions against its own civilians whereas Sate sponsored terrorism is about activities directed towards an enemy state's military and/or civilian population. Only a "List of acts labelled as State Sponsored terrorism" would fit the bill for a merger, if approved, into this article. Thanks. Idleguy 02:29, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a source for this? Regardless, the contents of the articles make no such distinction.Ultramarine 08:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont agree with the merger, it only makes the article about state sponsored terrorism that much more difficult to maintain. Wikipedia needs clarity on these definitional articles but aboutthe examples such as lists, the pov pushers can have the heart out in reverts and counter reverts and fight it out. Thanks Taprobanus 20:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I support the merger, as long as large portions of the text dont disappear, as they have on  List of acts labelled as state terrorism sorted by state.  Maybe someone other than the moderator should merge the text. 68.90.182.192 23:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger 

message: Wikipeida needs a new category that flags articles as worthless.  This one could cut its entire list of countries, which is both incomplete and inaccurate, and not suffer.  Belgium as a state sponsor of terror?  That's inane.
Gaintes (talk) 16:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  This Article is Worthless = 

message: The Palestinians aren't really part of a state (except maybe Israel, but that's streching it). Thus the "Palestinian authority" isn't a state like Afghanistan or the United Kingdom. It should be moved elsewhere.Vice regent 20:16, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palestinian authority 

message: I belive the purpose of this list is to educate people about state-sponsired terrorism, not to make political statements. The Middle East is obviously home to many examples. On the other hand, the list shouldn't include such fallacies as the UK being indentified by Iran. It should be obvious that Iran uses this to retaliate against Europe and America. Therefore, the nations of France, the UK, and the US should be removed, since they are being accused of these crimes by the terrorist states themselves. What good is our list if we equally punish France with Iran, when France is a free, democratic country, and Iran is a dictatorship that does not respect human rights. Please discuss, (209.7.171.66 22:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The sections you removed were sourced properly and meets our policies WP:V and WP:RS. Removing them was against our policy on WP:NPOV. Having these countries on this list is firstly, not a weasel list, secondly, does not constitute a political statement. nat Alo! Salut! Sunt eu, un haiduc?!?! 22:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My dear Canadian friend. I believe it is a weasel list. Please understand that nations which are regarded by the international community as supporters of terrorism, do NOT have the same credibility to accuse free, democratic nations of the same crime. If I call you a name, you cannot call me back one just because I did it. It must be supported by evidence. Iran is a terrorist-sponsoring nation. It may accuse the UK or the US of the same crime to retaliate, but the Wikipedia community should realize how foolish it is, and thus, disregard it. I hope you understand my logic. Let me know what you think. (209.7.171.66 22:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here at Wikipedia, we treat all states, nations and countries on the same level no matter what they have or haven't done. That means if it is notable and it is sourced, we added it. One being democratic and the other one not, does not give the democratic nation precedence over the other. nat Alo! Salut! Sunt eu, un haiduc?!?! 23:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Besides that, France has more or less admitted to sponsoring terrorism in this specific instance. They called it terrorism when it happened and they latter admitted they were involved in planning it. If anything, France is probably the worst example anon could use since they are oen of the only ones who beyond any shred of doubt should be on this list even if what they did may seem minor to many of the other accusations Nil Einne (talk) 18:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weasel List 

message: This article contains a number of controversial, unreferenced statements.  The way to address these is to add citations or to remove these statements - simply removing the  tags that highlight WP:V issues is NOT the way forward  Socrates2008 (talk) 11:27, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversial Statements 

message: I have once again had to correct this section. I would remind User:Phase4 to refrain from adding POV content. The references to the South African Border War or political assassinations fall outside of the definition of terrorism or state sponsored terrorism. None of these activities targeted "non-combatants". --Deon Steyn (talk) 09:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I in turn have had to correct Deon's edits. Hopefully we can now put these issues to bed.Phase4 (talk) 20:42, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  South Africa 

message: Phase4 is an alias of Patrick Haseldine is for making POV edits non attributable to him.  Please see the talk page  02:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phase4 is a POV alias of [[Patrick Haseldine]] 

message: :Image:Herald.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg 

message: I have removed a bad case of POI, namely "Conspiracy theorist Patrick Haseldine" This is opinion. I have changed it to fact, which is he was a diplomat.
:That term was there because he is the chief proponent of an unproven conspiracy theory about South African involvment in the Lockerbie bombing.  Furthermore, his edit of his own biography suggests that he himself is happy with this term.  01:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Labelling somone a conspiracy theorist is certainly POV:- it is a pejorative term used it discredit the theories expressed by that individual (and I'm not expressing support for SA involvment.) In contrast his position as a diplomat is fact. The link you gave in no way proves Patrick Haseldine is happy to be labelled a conspiracy theorist. All it shows is that someone who registered as PJHaseldine, and linked himself to this article, did not change the description. This is not support as anyone could claim on Wikipedia to be him, and it is policy that Wikipedia is not used as its own reference.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.217.219 (talk) 21:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Discussion continued here  10:44, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV and Patrick Haseldine 

message: I'm familiar with most of the facts on this article, and will start to work to add references to support the claims. So please do not make any further deletions. One section on Chile about Operation Condor that user Raggz deleted as "OR," is actually not OR but well known, and there are many good sources to support the claim. So I'll restore that bit and expand on it with a source. An excellent source I have the supports the claims is from the journal Social Justice. Article Title: Operation Condor: Clandestine Inter-American System by J. Patrice Mcsherry  Volume: 26. Issue: 4. Publication Year: 1999. Page Number: 144. COPYRIGHT 1999. Thanks.Giovanni33 (talk) 06:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fact tags and deletions 

message: This article is big on claims but short on citations in places. Some sections have no references at all, which is just not on. I have removed one paragraph from Belgium as that had been tagged for nearly a year. I won't remove any more for the moment, but quite honestly I could see entire sections going if good references don't appear. John Smith's (talk) 22:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess you ignored my request above not to remove more items from this article as I am working on finding the best sources for these claims, and that these claims are valid. I hope this is not more of your wikistalking, JohnSmiths but its odd that you come here and delete right after I posted a message asking editors not to.Giovanni33 (talk) 01:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You posted your request over 12 hours before I made the deletion - that is hardly wikistalking, given I'd been editing for a lot longer last evening. I did miss it, but you can restore it very easily when you find your citations. John Smith's (talk) 12:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New sources required 

message: :Image:Herald.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg 

message: An important part of this chapter is actually not concerned with "international" terrorism, as is claimed to be part of the definition in the heading. If the heading is not changed, that part should be deleted. As it is, this part is only there to push POV and support the existence of the "communist terrorism" articles.
Clear examples of this "communist terrorism" POV: mentioning China as a country liberated by the Soviet Army.
The main problem with the rest is (as has been pointed out in the other communist terrorist articles) that it is all based on the controversial statements of one man: Pacepa, who had  a clear motive to claim these things. You need more substantiation, or else WP:UNDUE could be invoked.
Obviously, as this article is a POV magnet, the other chapters suffer from similar problems. I have already and easily dealt with an anti-British fragment, but I am sure there must be more.--Paul Pieniezny (talk) 10:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soviet Union 

message: However, many - including media reports from Pakistan, feel that these counter-allegations launched by Pakistan's President came in the wake of a war of words between India and Pakistan on the suicide attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul, which New Delhi has blamed on Islamabad-based Inter-Services Intelligence agency. Check the date of this article and compare it to the time of attack on Indian embassy in Afghanistan.
See this before reverting any edits."The National" clearly mentions that concerns are being voice well before embassy bombing.User talk:Yousaf465
:There is ample evidence that the Pakistani accusations of india supporting BLA is directly linked with immediately preceding Kashmiri accusations of terrorism (a fact that even US has started supporting) even in the past and as well cited it has been used as a tit for tat accusation. I don't wish to say any further because these citations were also removed. whereas the issue on Sri Lanka and much of what's been included as sponsored terrorism is directly from the most biased and pakistan-military publication called "Defence Journal". Half of the info is original research trying to paste erstwhile support to LTTE when they were not banded as "terrorist" with current situations and producing a thesis in here. See WP:OR for what I mean.
:Presently the only ally that is being directly hounded in the war on terror is Pakistan. A cursory glance at the newspapers will reveal that Pakistan harbours terrors who spill over to Afghanistan that  US troops bombs Pakistan and the latter is issuing ultimatums not to disturb the "peace". The ISI again has been accused by everyone from NATO, to Afghanistan, to even USA for their support to the terrorists and the user Yousaf465 only adds information on India as a weak and futile attempt to somehow avenge all the current happennings with articles dated from 1993 to paint India as the new sponsor of terrorism, when it's Pakistan which is under fire. Talk about timing. Idleguy (talk) 06:41, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Very intersting material 

message: It should, at a minimum, attempt to state what state-sponsored terrorism is, per WP:MOS. Ray (talk) 02:48, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. However, it should be more than a definition (from something more than a dictionary) per WP:NOTDICDEF.VR talk 04:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That section applies to the article as a whole, not the first sentence. It is only good encyclopedic style to start with a definition of the topic. Ray (talk) 17:39, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction is a disaster 

message: The statement by the prime minister of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan speaks about "state terrorism" NOT "State-sponsored terrorism". To include an Israel section please provide evidence of the State of Israel providing support for non state actors who undertake acts of terrorism. Otherwise the content belongs in a different article, if it belongs any where at all.
I believe this artile and the State terrorism article do a decent job of explaining the difference between the two concepts. Only the concept of State-sponsored terrorism is a legitimate accusation against a state. States can do massive damage but there are other words for that, and well recognised international definitions and concepts in international law. The entire concept of articles on specific states and listing allegations of "state terrorism" is not encyclopedic - any military action could be called "state terrorism" by someone. The forks from this article providing evidence of states funding, training or otherwise supporting non state actors who comit terrorist acts is a different story and worth having.
Oboler (talk) 06:44, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israel section and state terrorism vs state sponsored terrorism 

message: A fair bit of material in here seemed to be about state-terrorism on the part of Israel, Apartheid South Africa and the Soviet Union, not about their sponsoring terrorism. All the material on SA, for example, seemed to be about government agencies taking part in assassinations not their sponsoring other organisations (e.g. UNITA) to carry out terrorism. Similarly the allegations against Israel were about terrorist acts committed by Israeli government agencies not their funding other organsiations to carry out terrorism for them. The first half of the Soviet Union was again about government terror whilst the second half was more about their support for the PLO etc. which is appropriate.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:16, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the distinction drawn above. However, if apartheid South Africa and the former Soviet Union practised state terrorism, shouldn't they appear in that article (Israel is already listed there)?---PJHaseldine (talk) 16:42, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to add stuff there, bearing in mind the sepecial need for referencing to reliable sources in battleground articles.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:18, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing material on state-terrorism not state-sponsored 

message: The Pakistan section is very big compared with the others. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 15:24, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree... The information is a little out of order as well... It goes back and forth between the western and eastern borders... First Taliban, then kashmir then back to taliban then back to LET... It needs to be sorted out... The info should be a little more brief and to the point... Adil your (talk) 15:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree again. Potentially there are a lot more countries to be added. We should follow WP:summary style and have no more than three or four short paragraphs per country with separate article sfor those that have enough material to merit it.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:54, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

text: The Pakistan section is absurd. Looks like Indian editors have been working exceptionally hard at it. Many of the articles cited are from non-credible sources and some are even from Op-Ed articles. I smell a clear WP:NPOV violation. And to top it off, the article has been made 'semi-protected' so that no one can make it more balanced. Lets be clear about this, someone has to take a stance and allot each country a small sizable para for its involvement in 'state-sponsored' terrorism instead of having one country take up half the space while others barely get a 3-sentence mention.Ron Pitz (talk) 23:59, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see the Pakistan section as absurd at all. In fact, there are plenty of issues not even discussed, for example alleged Pakistani support of terrorist groups operating in neighboring Iran as well. These are not unsubstantiated rumors. I would say that the statement that Pakistan is the world's most important sponsor of non-state terrorist groups is probably broadly accepted in academic and intelligence circles.jackbrown (talk) 18:05, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Furthermore, Ron Pitz's assertion that this is somehow the result of sneaky Indian editors doing down Pakistan is a pretty wild assertion.jackbrown (talk) 18:06, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pakistan