Talk:Alternative rock/Archive 1

message: Regular Rock and Roll with the BASIC 4-4 time signature came from Blues music perfected in Chicago as well as country music. The reason Alternative Rock seems to be called Alternative is from its subtleness taken from Jazz time signature styles, primarily. Jazz was invented in New Orleans, Louisiana. 
When you listen to bands like Phish verses The Grateful Dead the similarities are very similar but with one major difference. 
Phish seems like an alternative band compared to GD being a straight rock style. Phish’s emphasis seems geared more toward Jazzy “off-beat-type” riffs.
This makes Alternative Rock feel less “booming, solid or definitive” as compared to Regular 4-4 Rock. But Alternative music seems sexier and more descriptive because of less emphasis on time signature and more on substance and fluidity.
:I'm not so sure Phish counts as alternative rock. Maybe if you gave a better example I might agree. -- LGagnon 22:17, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
: I also think your recent additions are questionable. You did not wait for discussion to be made first before adding jazz and funk to the influences. In my opinion, they should not be added there. I also do not think Art rock should be considered a derivative form, since it has been around longer. -- LGagnon 22:22, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
:alternative rock stems from punk, man. any similarities between most alternative bands and jazz is more coincidental than you think, or it is intentional experimenatation within the genre. 67.172.61.222 21:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, a lot of early punk bands had definite jazz influences, including Crass, The Damned, John Lydon, The Clash, The Slits and others. A lot of jazz found its way into alternative rock that way. --Switch 10:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative Rock stemming from Jazz vs. Regular Rock from Blues? 

message: Apperantly someone didn't get the point of having the British spelling used for the part about British English and the American spelling in the part about American English. It's too bad; the sentence was one of the more interesting ones I've written on Wikipedia. -- LGagnon 22:23, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Favor vs favour

message: The article mostly focuses on Nirvana in the mid 90s...but that really isn't all that true. Back in the early 90s, Nirvana was considered "grunge" and while Nirvana DID help punk bands come into the mainstream, by the mid 90s the word "alternative" was no longer associated with solely Nirvana. In fact, from what I remember from 1994-1995 period, when someone mentioned alternative music, pop-punkish bands like Greenday and Offspring would come to mind. Flyerhell 05:58, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The article does acknowledge that.  And there's only a paragraph or so about the 90's so it's not a disproportionate about of text given to Nirvana (who were very important in the history of alternative rock).  WesleyDodds 23:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Other bands

message: I propose spliting off the current list of alternative rock genres into an article titled "List of alternative/indie music genres".  The reason for this is I plan to add more genres to the list than space might allow for future additions to the body of the article, and to list indie genres (that is, genre called "indie" after alternative went mainstream), which currently do not have a definitive listing on Wikipedia.  Alternative and indie are used interchangeably enough (especially in regards to genres like Shoegazing, noise pop, post-rock, and others) that I feel such an article title would be the most appropriate heading.  I'm using AMG's genre Alternative/Indie rock database as an example of what this list would contain, although due to the nature of Wikipedia we could list far more in number and those in general obscurity.
The list would include genres like grunge, Britpop, shoegazing, indie rock, twee pop, psychobilly, industrial rock, C86, grebo, space rock, post-rock, post-punk revival, gothic rock, Paisley Underground, noise pop, noise rock, jangle pop, dream pop, geek rock, alternative metal, Madchester, Christian alternative music, lo-fi, sadcore, slowcore, math-rock, and more.  We could leave a short sentence on this page listing at least a few of the more notable genres (such as grunge, Britpop, and gothic rock) along with the link to the list page.
Any thoughts either way about this?  WesleyDodds 09:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you sure there's enough to warrant another article? We could just split it into columns the way the list at Cult television is split. I don't think that would take up too much space. -- LGagnon 17:40, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That might a good way to do it.  But we should also account for future expansion of the main article itself.  Right now a lot more can be added about the history of and opinions on alternative rock.  Also, those were just the styles I could think of off the top of my head.  There's certainly smaller scenes that could be listed, and a page solely devoted to genres might help highlight them.  Lastly, there are people who would probably be searching for "Indie genres" instead of "Alternative genres" (especially in the UK) so an article title that references both might help out.  WesleyDodds 11:47, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We can always fork the article when it needs to be forked, not when it doesn't. Until the article is big enough to need it, I think it's best to keep the info here. And as for indie genres, why not put that list on the indie rock article? -- LGagnon 19:29, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not necessarily talking about Indie rock, but Indie music.  Many people use the the phrase "indie" when referring to alternative music.  WesleyDodds 00:16, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Still, that does not mean we have to have both lists in the same place. -- LGagnon 02:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually it does, for reference purposes, since "indie" and "alternative" are sometimes used interchangebly as umbrella terms for the genre.  Anyways, I think your proposal for the list would work for now.  If I list as many genres as I can, can you arrange them into the column-style list format?  WesleyDodds 06:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of alternative/indie music genres 

message: I propose the splitting of this article into Alternative Rock and ALternative Music as in my experience these mean too different things although I have not enoucntered the term or style of Alternative ROck that often.
Alternative Rock Article: To describe a specific style in line with other such musical genres as Punk and Heavy metal
Alternative Music: Now im sure they'll be some disagreement about this BUT in my experience Alternative Music is used as an umbrella term  to cover a variety of musical genres including Punk, Indie, Emo, Metal, Gothic Rock and youth scenes including Goth, Emo, Grunger, Punk, Metalhead etc. The followers of these scenes often have overlapping musical tastes, attitudes and friendship groups (i.e metalheads hang with Grungers without problems when many metalheads would not hang with a chav simply becuase they are a chav)  The Article does not properly reflect this use of the term and is geared more towards Alternative Rock as a Musical Style and its history.
:Metal is not alternative. You seem to be concerned with pushing a POV that you haven't given any proof for. Do you have any sources that prove your point? -- LGagnon 22:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a common misperception.  "Alternative" is meant to refer not merely to an outsider mentality, although that's how it got it's name.  Rather, it refers to post-punk music genres developed in the indie scenes of various regions that exised outside of the mainstream for the most part until the 90's (which is why bands like Oasis are called alternative, because they emerged from the Manchester indie scene).  This excludes both metal and non-alternative forms of punk  (emo and pop-punk are occasionally lumped in with alternative).  Terms like Alternative metal, Alternative hip-hop, and Alternative country exist, but these are largely devised in relation to their overall genre, and do not necessarily have any connection to alternative rock (although Alternative metal at times is' alternative rock, as are a scant few alt. country bands like Wilco).  "Alternative" does have a lot of connotations in popular culture, but here it refers to this particular phenomenon.  WesleyDodds 04:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting of Article 

message: I redirected alternative Pop rock to this page since that isn't a common term.  Here's the text from that page. Tuf-Kat 06:15, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Alternative Pop rock]] 

message: I merged Christan alternative rock here. There was very little "real" information in the parent article. Given the similar amount of content in many of the alternative rock articles, I suggest perhaps a list of alternative music genres with included stubs? --MikeJ9919 23:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted the merge since placing that here emphasized one genre over all others, particularly one only tangentally involved with alternative rock as a whole, and it looked cumbersome.  Plans are underway to expand this article, but I don't think genre stubs would be effective.  Just look at List of heavy metal genres.  WesleyDodds 23:43, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian alternative rock 

message: Anyone familar with this genre? New Order was the first Alternative Dance act. 72.130.198.232 06:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've only seen that term used on Allmusic as a broad label to describe bands like New Order and later Public Image Ltd. as well as covering more dance-oriented alt-rock genres like Madchester/baggy and grebo.  WesleyDodds 10:27, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative Dance 

message: The re-write that has been done twice now by Onurkaryagmaz is in fact a copyvio from bandbiographies. I've given him a waning about using copyvio text. --GraemeL (talk) 13:27, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds good. Just try not to turn the article into the confused mess that other rewrite made and it should work out. -- LGagnon 12:22, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've commenced with the revamp.  Obviously I still have more work to do; this is just to get the bulk of it on the page at the moment.  WesleyDodds 02:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm curious about the revert you did to re-add the first reference and the prosaic bit about owing a debt of gratitude to punk rock... Both of them smell of original research, or failing that, should be cited. Xinit 03:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alt-rock emerged from the indie scene set up by punk rock as well as its ideals.  I've added a reference now, but this sentiment is echoed by a number of books and essays beyodn that citation.  WesleyDodds 10:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The re-write 

message: Please don't just add references and expect the reader to know what they are references for. Add citations so we know what they are backing up. -- LGagnon 03:56, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I thought I made it clear that I would be working on this gradually.  So citations will show up, but most likely not all at once.  Most of the info can be found in those essays I linked as resources if you wish to verify what I've added.  I'll pull in as many other sources as I can, but I'm rather busy at the moment.  But rest assured I'm not making this all up, and hopefully the in next month or so the page should be drastically revamped and expanded.  WesleyDodds 10:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know you aren't making it up, but it would be best that you don't add a reference before you decide what to cite with it. Feel free to add anything else that helps back up your claims (or anyone else's), as you can never have too many references (unless you're being redundant, of course). On a related note, please give page numbers when you cite books (the Azerrad citations currently lack them). Thanks and keep up the good work. -- LGagnon 23:46, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: "However, in 2004 the sound of alternative rock returned to the mainstream with the popularity of indie rock and post-punk revival artists such as Modest Mouse and Franz Ferdinand, respectively.Dolan, Jon.  "The Revival of Indie Rock". SPIN. January 2005. This revival has caused a big stir in the rock music community and has opened the door for the renewed interest in classic alternative bands."
hasn't "alternative rock" (yes, i know it's not remotely alternative anymore, but stylistically) been mainstream since about 1993? what makes the rock bands of circa 2002 any more or less "alternative" than modest mouse et. al.? even the intro mentions that much mainstream music of the past decade has been labelled "alternative". i take it this may be referring to the post-punk revival, but that in itself isn't much of a change in the direction of current music, either. 67.172.61.222 21:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a good question...one that's been debated since 1993 at least. My personal opinion is that there are two alternative rock camps. One called "modern rock" and the other "indie". That doesn't solve anything unfortunately. And it gets more confusing now that people are calling stuff like The Killers and Elefant "indie". maxcap 22:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Alternative rock certainly lost much of its commercial clout in the late 90s, with even major established acts like Pearl Jam, Hole, and Smashign Pumpkins having disappointing sales.  It was supplanted by nu metal and pop punk in mainstream prominence at the time.  There were a number of articles saying alternative was dead or rock was dead at the time; MTV and Guitar World even eliminated their categories for alternative rock in awards ceremonies around 1999.  Still, that paragraph could probably use a rewrite.  Someone added it a while ago and I pretty much left it alone since it covered a period that hadn't been addressed before.  But certainly people have been talking about a revival of alternative rock in the last few years, from that SPIN magazine article I referenced to the emergence of "Classic alternative" radio formats.  WesleyDodds 20:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  self contradiction 

message: I am placing this article's GA nomination on hold for seven days, because while it has no problems that I consider showstoppers, it needs some fixing.  Specifically:
* The article needs a thorough copyedit for proper grammar.
* The lead paragraph tells us that "alternative rock" is made up of bands, but later says it is a genre, made up of other genres.  I don't think it adequately defines the term or introduces the concept of sub-genres within a large genre.
* Consider renaming "Overview" to "History".
* There are sections for alternative rock in the US and the UK.  It didn't exist anywhere else?  Even if there is nothing significant to cover, at least include a paragraph concerning alt rock's effects in other countires.
Thanks! --Aguerriero (talk) 22:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Conveniently I was planning to address a lot of those points anyway in the coming days.  However, if someone can give the article a good copyediting (I can generally do that decently, except when it's something I have written myself) that would help immensely.  WesleyDodds 21:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I feel that you have done a good job addressing my points, and I have passed the article.  Keep up the great work! --Aguerriero (talk) 14:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA nomination 

message: The way that the sound samples are scattered throughout the article seems to be a bad stylistic choice. It makes editing the article a bit more confusing for newcomers, and pushes around the text in ways that are asthetically unpleasing to the eye. It'd probably be best if we just put all of them in their own section. -- LGagnon 21:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did it in an attempt to group the samples to relevant sections.  However, I must admit I did this on a widescreen laptop, so I was not aware of how it looked on a normal screen.  WesleyDodds 21:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the concept is understandable, but I think it could have been better implemented. For one, the US song box should have been at the top of the section, and not touching the rest of the text. Also, I personally don't like having anything left-aligned in articles; it seems more natural for the text to be on the left side of a box (as English is read left to right). The UK box is a similar situation. It also wouldn't hurt to add the other 3 samples to those two boxes, as being separated looks odd and gives no explaination for why it is that way. -- LGagnon 02:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole touching the text part is another result of performing the edit while on this computer; I looked at the page on another computer today and saw your edit looked fine.  So yeah, my bad.  As for the separate sound clips, I tried to arrange the clips in each section in order to provide context, so for example the British alt-rock clips roughly correspond to each paragraph (goth, Smiths-inspired indie rock, shoegaze, Britpop, and 2000s indie rock).  While I tried to give equal weight to each facet of alternative rock and its history, I think we can all pretty much agree most notable alt-rock came out in the late 80s and 1990s.  So rather than shove clips by Sonic Youth and Smashing Pumpkins into the sections (bands that are quite notable in alternative rock as a whole but in a sense redundant if the clips were placed alongside the Pixies and Nirvana ones), I just placed them at the bottom as a sort of "additional listening".  I was also thinking about replacing the Cure clip with Bauhaus' "Bela Lugosi's Dead" (the song no one argues isn't a goth song) and putting a later Cure song like "In Between Days" or "Just Like Heaven" in the section at the bottom, since that's when they became really popular (trivia: 120 Minutes voted the "Just Like Heaven" video the greatest alternative video ever).  A New Order clip was another consideration; there were a few dancey strains of alternative in the 80s that should probably be represented and while New Order is a major band from that period (best-selling 12" single of all time, even if it is technically a techno song), they were largely separate from the major trends.  It's kind of annoying how idiosyncratic some alternative bands can be, and how they sometimes don't fit into clean-cut categories like grunge or shoegaze or indie pop, which I guess is part of the purpose of the section at the bottom.  WesleyDodds 06:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sound samples scattered

message: Our Band Could Be Your Life is missing the page number(s) for the citation. Please add this in, as that is standard for book citations. -- LGagnon 20:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page number missing

message: Everything about MTV and KROQ mentioned applies to this station. By the 
1982-1985 period New Order was in heavy rotation as was the Cure and The Smiths by the end of the period. REM got it's share of airplay. Long Island has three million people living there and the station was listened to in next door New York City because the commercial rock stations there at the time were album oriented rock 01:39, 24 July 2006 (Ed Kollin)
:Nothing against the station.  Just that in the process of reorganizing the section I felt that bit was unnecessary and made the paragraph too long.  The paragraph says "Most commercial stations ignored the genre", which implies there was some sort of presence somewhere anyway.  WesleyDodds 11:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: == The article has several inaccuracies and gives the short-shrift where commercial radio is concerned. KROQ, WLIR, and KQAK, alone, defined alternative music for millions of people prior to even 1985. When KITS came on in 1986, it was a ratings monster from the start. WFNX went full-time alternative in 1985. WOXY came into being in 1983; WHFS was playing the Jam as far back as 1979, and there are plenty more.--FemmyV 17:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: KROQ played mainly synthpop, New Wave, and post-punk through most of the 80s; you can check out their year-end countdowns here on Wikipedia as proof as this.  The thing is a lot of things have been labeled alternative, but if you actually trace the roots of a lot of styles and bands a cleaer picture of what is and what isn't of the genre becomes clearer; some of what people might consider alternative rock during the 80s is often skewed towards what got commercial airplay during the day, when the roots of the alt-rock breakthrough in the 90s actually come from bands that were very underground.  WesleyDodds 23:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What does this Page have against WLIR

message: Maybe this article could include some more information on the precursors of underground and alternative music. While it did represent a clear break from everything else that was going on in the seventies, alternative music owes a lot to 60s underground music such as  The Velvet Underground, the 13th Floor Elevators, Iggy Pop, Love (RIP Arthur Lee, aug. 2006) and Syd Barrett (RIP July 2006). ­74.56.146.147 11:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thought about it, but it would be kind of hard to write about them since they're not all influential over a huge swath of alt-rock (sure Sonic Youth and the Sisters of Mercy pray at the altar of Iggy, but it's certainly not universal) and many are a step removed from being direct influences on the genre (that extra step being punk rock).  Unless they influnece particular periods or subgenres (like with the VU mention regarding the Paisley Underground) mentioning these artists can get a bit esoteric.  WesleyDodds 11:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancestors ?

message: Many alternative bands have become pop rock bands. This has disgraced the genre.
:Some would argue that this has been happening since R.E.M. and the Smiths.  WesleyDodds 02:03, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there anyone who would say that The Smiths aren't pop? ~Switch t 08:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely they're an indie pop band, but the important distinction is the "indie" part: the band's existence as an essential component of the 80s indie scene.  And no matter how pop they were, Morrissey's lyrics were not typical pop fare, talking about veiled homosexuality, politics, child molestation, depression, Oscar Wilde, etc. The majority of British alternative bands drew influence from the Smiths, and that continued with Britpop.  WesleyDodds 18:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But what about musically? An entiely new article could try to explain how alternative music isn't alternative anymore. It's Top 40. When half the songs in the Top 40 are by slacker vocalists in baggy pants with tats mumbling over grunge power chords, it ain't the alternative to the mainstream, it IS the mainstream. Which alt-rockers (according to this article) supposedly hate. This happened 10-15 years ago. It's not a new sound anymore. It's being cranked out like candy bars. Sharpvisuals 19:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And, as Wesley already pointed out, is this any different than the earliest of alternative rock bands - like, say, The Smiths - having successful singles or appearing on Top of the Pops? ~ Switch (✉✍☺) 07:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Alt becoming pop rock

message: the infobox claims that the genre only experiences limited popularity, while almost all of todays' mainstream rock bands are or could be described as "alternative" (look into green, afi, blink 182, bands like that). thus, alternative rock is tremendously popular. how do we define the genre so that it is only marginally popular? 67.172.61.222 19:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm trying to think of better ways to rephrase it, but even with alt-rock's popularity there have still been numerous bands working on an underground level.  WesleyDodds 23:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the term "alternative" is almost all-encompasing, though, almost no modern rock band could not be considered alternative. it is very popular and just because there are a lot of underground bands doesn't diminish that. even the article itself says that the term is used to describe mainstream rock in the new millenium. 67.172.61.222 03:20, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Er, no.  For example, Linkin Park, The Darkness, and blink-182 aren't alternative rock bands, just to name three random examples that appear on modern rock radio. Right now it certainly has a mainstream presence, but it's not dominant like it was during the 90s. The article is saying that "alternative" has been used indiscriminately at times, not necessarily that everything belongs under the label.  And for every band that breaks through there have been many more who remain underground, to the point where entire alt-rock subgenres have been underground or only gained exposure with a freak hit.  WesleyDodds 07:05, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  limited popularity? 

message: Does anybody else think we should include a section about the ambiguity of term today.  I mean, you have bands as dissimilar as Coldplay and Nickelback being put under that umbrella.  What are the stylistic characteristics of an "alternative"  song?  It's got to be one of the most confusing terms around.
:It's always been ambiguous and amorphous.  Back in the 80s bands as dissimilar as Sonic Youth and The Smiths were alternative.  In the 90s bands as dissimilar as Blur, Nine Inch Nails, and Primus were.  As the article currently says, there are no set guidelines to an alternative song.  However, the subgenres are a little more defined (dspite what fans of particular bands might say, there are some common defineable traits that embody genres like grunge, goth, Britpop, shoegaze, etc.), so I've always found it easier to determine the boundaries of the genre by defining the subgenres.  In the case of the two bands you mentioned, Nickelback is post-grunge and Coldplay grew out of the post-Britpop movement. WesleyDodds 12:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Alternative" stopped being useful as a genre classification about a decade ago, actually. No band that emerged at any time in the 2000s should be categorized or described as "alternative", because they just aren't. Neither Nickelback nor Coldplay are actually "alternative"; for one thing, what on earth is there for them to be an alternative to? The only reason "alternative" is still used by some as a genre label, in fact, is that there hasn't been a new genre that's come to dominate rock music the way alternative did — so people still think in terms of "alternative". But what's important to remember is that alternative is defined first and foremost by the parallel existence of another rock genre for alternative rock to be an alternative to — so any rock band, such as Nickelback or Coldplay, that exists within the rock establishment, rather than on the outside kicking down the doors, cannot be alternative. Not even if it's strongly influenced by bands that were alternative. Bearcat 06:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Should the popular use of the term count? Agreed that what is called alternative today is not alternative to anything but mainstream rock. A lot of it is watered down and insulting to the genre originators. But the fact remains that most anywhere you want to look be it radio and music stores online or not the music in question is often labeled as “alternative” for the reasons you listed. I think because you, me and many music experts dislike using this terminology for the music in question is no reason not to have Wikipedia describe the common or popular use of the term. What could be done to the article is what was done to the article on New Wave Music that is to state and describe how the use of the term has changed over time. Edkollin 07:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I've been doing with the section on the term. Problem is, there are few sources available addressing the term's origins and how use of the term has changed over the years besides an ill-informed "the music industry made it up after Nirvana" (I've got references as far back as 1985, and it came into widespread use around 1990-1991) or "It's meaningless" (that doesn't help us address a genre that's been described for over twenty years). For some reason a majority of music writers tend to wax philosophically on the connotations of the term instead of actually researching its use and origins. Basically what's on the page is what's available in terms of hard, informative sources on the issue, but I'm always looking. WesleyDodds 12:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Originally 'alternative' meant that it was different from the dominant rock of the day, which was the last gasp of the classic/stadium/hairband rock era.   When the new style became mainstream, the name as a genre classification ceased to match the meaning of the word.  So now we have a situation where the most mainstream middle-of-the-road music being produced - is labeled 'alternative'. Dlabtot 19:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I have found no evidence to support that general assertion. Grunge is definitely an alt-rock subgenre (especially given that Nirvana and Pearl Jam are among the most notable alternative bands). Pop-punk? That varies on the source. And I could find any random person around here in the States that would laugh in your face if you called Nickelback alternative; doesn't mean that they aren't. Oh, and "alternative rock" as a term has American origins; from what I understand "indie" is preferred in the UK (which is backed up by a number of sources). WesleyDodds 11:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm British, and I can believe that Nickelback and Green Day are alternative; the question is, am I part of the alternative rock movement? :) CloudNine 14:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Should I even mention that one of the citations in the article is from the BBC and talks about Nirvana and grunge dominating alternative rock prior to Britpop, or that two of the books cited numerous times are written by noted British music writers (Simon Reynolds and John Harris) and quite clearly count grunge as an important component of alternative/indie rock? And that's just what's in this article. I bet if I resurrected John Peel he'd have something to say about it. WesleyDodds 23:18, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ambiguity of the term "alternative rock" 

message: I must object to the following sentences:
During the 1990s, many artists who did not fit the "alternative" label were nonetheless given it by mainstream record labels in the hopes of capitalizing on its popularity. Some pop musicians, such as Alanis Morissette and Hootie & the Blowfish were given the label on the basis of nuanced differences from other pop artists.
I think there is a pretty strong consensus that Alanis's music from the mid- to late-'90s is alternative rock. The idea that it's just pop marketed as alternative is absurd. It may be more pop-oriented than, say, Nirvana, but the alt-rock roots are fairly unmistakable, especially in songs like "You Oughta Know." I can't remember anyone ever classing Hootie as alternative. I'm not sure what to do with the above paragraph, though. marbeh raglaim 14:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no consensus that Alanis was ever "alternative" in any meaningful way (and even if there had been one, it would be wrong). Certainly she has some alternative influences, but she wasn't fundamentally an "alternative music" artist. Bearcat 06:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Show me a credible source that claims that none of her songs (not even "You Oughtta Know") are alternative. The opinion of random fans doesn't count. The problem, as I see it, is that a lot of people confuse the alternative genre with the adjective it's derived from. The adjective originally suggested music outside the commercial mainstream. However, it ultimately came to refer to a specific genre with several identifiable musical characteristics. Eventually, mainstream commercial music emerged that imitated the musical style of the alternative genre, even though it was not "alternative" in the original sense that the adjective suggested. Alanis Morissette was one of the catalysts for this transition. So, in a sense, people are correct in suggesting that the term "alternative" has become meaningless. It is meaningless in the sense that the name of the genre has outlived its usefulness. But that's just the name. The style itself didn't change dramatically once it entered the commercial mainstream (though of course it evolved, as all music does). It requires a really strained argument to suggest that a song like "You Oughtta Know" belongs to a fundamentally different genre than alternative rock, simply because it achieved mainstream success. marbeh raglaim 09:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not saying that it "belongs to a fundamentally different genre than alternative rock simply because it achieved mainstream success"; I'm saying that while Alanis' work obviously bears some alternative influences, she isn't fundamentally an alternative rock artist, because the alternative influence isn't the core of what she's doing or even trying to do. She took elements of alternative and added them to some (not all) songs within a body of work that exists primarily within a pop idiom. Bearcat 19:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  "However, it ultimately came to refer to a specific genre with several identifiable musical characteristics."  really?  what are those characteristics? they don't seem to be mentioned in the article, or maybe I missed it. Dlabtot 06:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that she isn't fundamentally an alternative rock artist, though that's clearly the main root of her music since her '95 album. When I think of "pop," what usually springs to mind is artists like Madonna or Britney Spears (or, for that matter, Alanis's work as a teenager). Of course the term can refer to any commercial sort of music, but all of Alanis's work since '95 is clearly guitar-driven rock music with alternative roots, and to say (as the article does) that she's simply a pop artist who's been "labeled" as alternative just isn't accurate. marbeh raglaim 20:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alanis Morissette pop? 

message: This factoid was overshadowed by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five becoming the first Hip Hop act inducted into the hall. While the publicity for Grandmaster Flash was understandable and necessary REM got overlooked. A scan of the web did not reveal a direct statement of this fact but many lines noting that REM was inducted and that they were alternative rock pioneers. Edkollin 05:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  REM first alternative act inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 

message: Alice In Chains were also major players in the earley 90's grunge scene.
* They are mentioned towered the bottom of the “Alternative rock in the United States” paragraph Edkollin 07:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What About Alice In Chains?

message: In the discussion the article change this statement was made "by the hardcore bands getting sick of hardcore (Husker Du, Replacements, Meat Puppets, Minutemen). Did they get sick of it or just evolve?. I am not saying the statement is wrong I do not know the answer. By the way if you have not done so yet do see the DVD :American Hardcore 1980-1986 Edkollin 16:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's kind of both; that was just my simplistic way of describing what happened around 84-85. Husker Du did get sick of hardcore and the members do not consider what they did after Zen Arcade as punk rock. Paul Westerberg of the Replacements became a better songwriter, while Double Nickles on the Dime was arguably a culmination of what the Minutemen were doing all along. Mark Arm of Green River/Mudhoney has said he got sick of hardcore and its rigidness; grunge was in many ways an embrace of things hardcore rejected, ie. long hair, slow songs, Led Zeppelin. WesleyDodds 23:09, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Edkollin 08:14, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Husker Du, Replacements, Meat Puppets, Minutemen getting sick of hardcore? 

message: More on this. The documentary being broadcast in the UK in May/June covers off rock in these 7 programmes, time slots and sections. It treats "alternative rock" as a separate US thing and argues that "indie rock" starts in 1980 as part of telling this story anyhow and they had to cut it up someway... (presumably there is a nod to Factory, Postcard, Rough Trade etc before getting on with the Smiths in 1982.) This is from the press release/press info...
1.Blues based rock 1963-1970 hendrix, cream etc
2.White Light, White Heat Art Rock 1966-1980 velvets, bowie, roxy etc
3.Blank Generation Punk Rock 1973-1980 New York Dolls, Richard Hell, Sex Pistols, Iggy blah blah
4.Never Say Die Heavy Metal 1970-1991
With Black Sabbath as the undisputed Godfathers, we follow their highs and lows, and, along the journey, meet Deep Purple, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden and Metallica. 
5.We Are The Champions Stadium Rock 1965-1993
some the biggest names in Rock, among them Queen, Bruce Springsteen, The Police and Dire Straits, U2
6.Left Of The Dial Alternative Rock 1980-1994
The rise of alternative rock in the USA. From its early underground days where bands like Black Flag drew inspiration from the DIY ethos of punk, The Last Rock Star traces the history of the network of fans, clubs and fanzines that sustained the scene and launched the careers of bands like REM, The Pixies and Husker Du. The film takes a fresh look at the explosion of the Seattle scene, culminating in the success of Nirvana's 'Nevermind' and the tragic loss of Kurt Cobain, an artist whose triumph and tragedy continues to cast an inescapable shadow.
7.What The World Is Waiting For Indie Rock 1980-2007
The story of British indie, beginning with The Smiths, the archetypal indie group. The film follows The Stone Roses as the heirs to the indie crown, Suede's dark sexuality and the media saturation of Brit-pop's Blur v Oasis. What The World Is Waiting For explores how indie ultimately lost its once cherished intimacy and integrity in front of 250,000 fans at Oasis's Knebworth spectacle in 1996 and how, by returning to its roots in clubs and bars (and even front rooms) with bands such as Franz Ferdinand, The Libertines and The Arctic Monkeys, indie became respectable again.
end of quote  Jem 08:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Aside from the terminology (after all, we do say "indie" here, but it refers mainly to either a type of existence or to a particular type of alt-rock, ie. Pavement, Modest Mouse, Franz Ferdinand) it seems like it'll be an potentialy useful source. Do you know somehow if it'll show up on BBC America? WesleyDodds 09:56, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  7 Ages of Rock - BBC documentary 

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BetacommandBot 00:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Only Shallow.ogg

message: I know this may sound dumb, but I've read the article so many times, but something bugs me about it. What is Alternative Rock? I've edited the Post-grunge article a number of times and have no idea how it relates to an Alternative Rock artist such as Oasis. It is very broad and the early Alternative Rock sound sounds completely different from today's Alternative Rock. I believe it is an umbrella term that has no meaning anymore from what it used to be. We should have seperate articles, one for 1990s alternative rock and the other for 2000s alternative rock. (Tigerghost 07:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not dumb at all but one of the major problems in writing any article about a mature genre in any field be it music,movies or art. Do you go strictly by the definitions given by musical journalists or do you use term as it is used by the public and/or marketers?. Winamp streams some XM radio stations one of whom is described as "New Alternative Rock". Many of the bands on that station have little in common with one another and the music has strayed far from the 1980's and early '90's definition of alternative rock. My opinion is you go by the umbrella term as you call it but of course good arguments can be made for the opposing POV Edkollin 03:44, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What Edkollin said. Alternative rock has always been somewhat ill-defined, which the article tries to address. Anyways, there were plenty of alt-rock bands even during the 1980s that had little to do with each other sonically. R.E.M. didn't much sound like The Cure, who didn't much sound like Husker Du, who didn't much sound like the Stone Roses or Jane's Addiction. And so on. Nevertheless these bands have all been grouped together and it would be pretty POV to make two wholly different articles (and personally I don't see too much difference between 90's alt-rock and the modern-day stuff, mainly because a lot of stuff that popular now first gained momentum in the 90s). WesleyDodds 01:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think you just have to make it clear that it's a subjective term and encompass all definitions from the commercial radio definition to the more music enthusiast. --Neon white 16:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is Alternative Rock? 

message: Is this source syaing Papa Roach is alternative rock valid?Hoponpop69 01:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. WesleyDodds 01:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not a reliable source per Wiki guidelines. WesleyDodds 04:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Papa Roach?

message: There should be a picture with the grunge section of the article. Should probably be a picture of Nirvana or Pearl Jam to show the mainstream interpretation of grunge, or possible a picture of Mudhoney or another indie grunge band. Any ideas/suggestions/oppositions? Connör (talk) 00:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ok, for now I am going to add a picture of Nirvana. Connör (talk) 00:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed my mind, I put a picture of Nirvana's album Nevermind along with a pretty generic caption in the section. Connör (talk) 00:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That actually used to be there. Oddly enough I didn't notice it had been taken out. WesleyDodds 03:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll try to figure out why it was taken out. There might have been a legitimate reson... or it could have been another "Wikipedian for decency and censorship"... Connör (talk) 20:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, it was apparantly removed by User:Moe Epsilon who claims it is violation of fair use. I don't sure this is a violation though. Connör (talk) 20:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  the grunge section 

message: Alternative music includes a lot of genres, and only one of those is alternative rock. --Libertad y Saber 21:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh, Alternative rock is the core/parent genre in that category. Alternative music redirects to this page. WesleyDodds 22:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  it shouldnt really, there should probably be a list. --Neon white 15:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

text: They are not synonymous really. About the redirect, it is not really a motive because Wikipedia is not an original research. --Libertad y Saber 02:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He's got a point. Agreed. Alternative music shouldn't redirect.Jem 20:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion#Alternative_music_.E2.86.92_Alternative_rock --Libertad y Saber 01:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative music isn't alternative rock but alternative rock is alternative music