Talk:Folie à deux

message: I first heard of folie a deux in a film theory class - we may have been talking about one of Godard's early films, or we may have been talking about Heavenly Creatures (Peter Jackson's movie). The point was that, as portrayed in Godard and a few other places, the folie a deux didn't exist before the two characters met. The madness only strikes as a result of the relationship between the two sufferers - it's brought into being by the relationship. It's not that one person has delusions which are then spread to a second. The relationship itself is the cause. 
It seems like this definition would be the reason why there's a distinction between folie a deux and the folie imposée mentioned in the article, however, the article itself doesn't make this clear. It could be that my impression is the result of what happens when liberal arts professors start dabbling in medical sciences, but on the other hand, this is probably the context in which most people would come into contact with the concept - as an element in a story. 
Looking quickly around Google Scholar, I find this reference to spontaneously appearing "folie simultanee", which seems to be the thing that was described to me, and this article indicates that it's not the most common kind of folie a deux.  It does seem to be the kind that pops up the most in works of fiction, though - and is implied by the literal meaning of the phrase, "the madness of two."   
Anyone else think there's either room for a literary motif section OR reason for some kind of clarification in the general introduction? --grant (talk) 18:36, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Are the delusions *transmitted* or *spontaneous*?

message: Should there be a list of famous cases of folie á deux? Some that have led to murder include Leopold and Loeb who murdered a 14 year old boy, the two Papin sisters in Le Mans who slaughtered their employer, the Parker-Hulme murder in Christchurch, New Zealand in which the mother of one of the pair was killed, the Moors murders by Brady and Hindley. In all cases there appears to have been a sexual bond between the two criminals. Xxanthippe 05:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi there, I've removed the paragraph from the article. It doesn't seem that any of the people listed were diagnosed with folie á deux, let alone had a psychotic mental illness. - Vaughan 07:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Vaughan i find that a naive comment. It is blatantly obvious that Brady, West and Huntley were psychopaths and their partners were sucked into their delusional world.--Penbat (talk) 15:54, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Famous cases?

message: Why does Shared Psychotic Disorder- the accepted and standard name for the disorder- redirect to the colloquial name of the disorder's article? With Bipolar/Manic Depression, and with Dissociate identity/Multiple personality disorders, the antiquated, colloquial name redirects to the standard, clinical name for the syndrome. Per these examples, I suggest we change what redirects where. How do I put this up to a vote? Asarkees 02:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS to move page at this time, per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 20:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Backwards redirect? 

message: ...is the term used in the medical literature. 'Folie en familie' isn't used. e.g. See Bryant's paper or  - Vaughan (talk) 22:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Folie à familie 

message: It makes sense to include media works that explicitly reference the concept of folie à deux.  But Bridge to Terabithia?  It's a stretch to consider that "shared" fantasy a folie à deux, but that's not the problem: the problem is, unless a reliable source can be found that calls it by that name, it's original research. Chick Bowen 15:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That section is a constant source of trouble.  That example, in particular, is troublesome and should go.  But, just in general, vague examples should be avoided, for instance, this new album by Fall Out Boy, which is utterly irrelevant. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 01:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Best of luck.  My previous effort was promptly reverted without comment. Chick Bowen 17:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like someone who thought they were reverting vandalism; they should have payed closer attention. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 17:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research in "In media" section 

message: Fall Out Boy's album, coming out December 16, 2008, is named folie à deux. Maybe we should mention it in the In Media Section? ~ DyingxToxLivexAgain  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.95.112.194 (talk) 00:56, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, we should not.  The coincidence of them naming their album as they did does not elucidate the topic at all.  It is not relevant.
I suggest mentioning the movie Bug, it's all about a case of folie à deux, of a couple that believes in "machines" and "bugs" and ends up comiting suicide. Worth mentioning. 84.90.209.215 (talk) 16:49, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Media 

message: I am pretty sure that Folie à deux is common not rare. 
There are many obvious Folie à deux double acts involving in murder such as Rose and Fred West, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr.
But I also think that many stable non violent dysfunctional relationships are examples of Folie à deux. Typically one partner has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the other has Dependant Personality Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder and normalises the delusions of the other partner.--Penbat (talk) 15:50, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Folie à deux is common not  rare 

message: Okay I'm trying to get to the page about Fall Out Boy's album and it says it's a Fall Out Boy album in the preview text but when I click it it comes to this!!!! HELP!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.48.76.59 (talk) 02:19, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Help??? =

message: This syndrome may very well describe ordinary, everyday, garden-variety, unquestioning religious observance. Making it a MASS phenomenon; not a rare one.
To the extent relious beliefs are all founded in neuroses or psychoses ("I'm OK; you're not" underpinning all Abrahamic beliefs, for example) it might be argued all families steeped in religious traditions suffer from this affliction.
In this form it may be the most common psychiatric condition known, with several billion sufferers.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.49.207.1 (talk) 23:28, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: And you decided that? That's lovely, but on Wikipedia we don't do original research. ×××BrightBlackHeaven(talk)××× 11:11, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does garden variety religiosity fit the bill? 

message: Kazuba (talk) 02:34, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Folie a Deux in Identical Twins and More 

message: Mental disorders are poorly understood. There is no science behind the DSM which defines them. Members vote on disorders to be included in the latest version of the DSM. 
Unaware of the cause of these bizarre behaviors none of the authors of the DSM know where one disorder begins or another ends. 
There have been several incidents that would qualify for Folie a deux if a simple problem capable of causing psychotic-like behavior in an otherwise normal person, Subliminal Distraction were known by psychiatrists and psychologists.
The first case of believed alien abduction, Barney and Betty Hill and the recent Randy Quaid escape to Canada fearing "star whackers" would qualify as a shared bizarre, almost psychotic belief. Without a known cause of these beliefs, psychosis is only diagnosed when the behaviors begin to effect daily living. 
When two people live together they can create a set of circumstances to allow Subliminal Distraction exposure. Identical exposure and a mental break at the same time won't happen. But one person can have the full SD mental break and convince the other person who has significant but lower exposure. They communicate normally but the psychotic-like element is from SD exposure. It's only an issue of length and intensity of SD exposure. 
Another example is Culture Bound Syndromes. Ethnic groups experience a mental event in terms of their cultural beliefs. But the mental events are all caused by Subliminal Distraction accidentally engaged by the design of too-small single-room living arrangements. Grisis Siknis happens to Miskito Indians in South America. An outbreak after Hurricane Fredric shows that connection.  Subliminal Distraction could happen because the family members were held close together for several days so that when one engaged full mental investment that person would subliminally detect other family members moving in peripheral vision. That allows a massive number of subliminal failed attempts to startle, a Subliminal Distraction.
The mental breaks that happen after a three day ten hour per day seminar from Landmark Education shows that classroom type circumstances will allow Subliminal Distraction to cause mental breaks. There have been psychology investigations since the 1970's trying to find out why LGATS cause mental breaks. There have been three psychotic break suicides connected to LGATS in Australia. (Google Rebekah Lawrence suicide Australia.) (LGATS = Large Group Awareness Training Seminar)
There have been 18 suicides at Foxconn in China and 60 at France Telecom. Political groups blame management and poor working conditions but pictures and video taken by TV news crews show Subliminal Distraction.
I am the copyright holder for VisionAndPsychosis.Net a nine year investigation of Subliminal Distraction. A normal feature in everyone's physiology of sight, it is explained in first semester psychology under the physiology of sight, subliminal sight, and peripheral vision reflexes. Discovered as a problem and solved forty years ago when it caused mental breaks for office workers it is a believed to be a harmless nuisance in the design of crowded close-spaced offices. 
Folie a deux is a defined disorder but it's not mental illness. 
L K Tucker 24.96.50.245 (talk) 21:46, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Common not rare 

message: I am aware that the Parker-Hulme murder has not been professionally diagnosed as a case of Folie a deux, but the (somewhat fictionalized) account of it by Peter Jackson clearly presents it as that.  I understand that the page once had an examples section that was troublesome, but I think pointing out this example in film would do the reader of the article a favor by giving them a link (the old fashioned non-hyperlink kind) to a clear example of Folie a deux protrayed.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.34.1.200 (talk) 09:24, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd buy that. Do you think you can find some published criticism of the film that mentions the folie-a-deux link? -grant (talk) 17:22, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heavenly Creatures? 

message: "Folie des Foule" translates to "Madness of Crowds" and I believe I am the first person to identify it. 
There is a form of mental illness called Folie à deux, in which two people share the same delusion. When the entire population shares the same delusion, it can be called Folie des foule. This translates as "Madness of Crowds" How frightening! It can easily be transmitted to an entire population, and frequently is. 
It is also surprisingly easy to suggest things to an hypnotized mob. This is what has been happening. Some of you will never wake up. There is no key word to do it. You’ll just continue to buy those products and vote for those politicians and take those pills the doctor gives you, and you’ll think what a good citizen you are, as you ignore the consequences of your actions, the people who die as a result of your programmed votes.
Interestingly, "Folie des Foule" could also be translated as "Madness of Fools" although accurate, but not nice enough for publication. 
It can easily be seen in lynch mobs and large groups of sports fans, also in financial circles such as the beginning of the great depression. Once you get the idea, you can see how often it does happen, can't you?24.49.208.107 (talk) 12:59, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Folie des Foule 

message: As mentioned above, presumably this is related to the phenomenon of charismatic religious/cult leaders, public miracles etc. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I should add relevant material to the article. Ben Finn (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Religion/cults

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The new article is on the same subject, but there is useful new material with WP:Reliable sources worth merging. The Mighty Glen (talk) 12:23, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Klbrain (talk) 17:31, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge with [[Shared delusional disorder]] 

message: Sometimes the term "folie a deux" is used in the literature to describe case reports where non-psychotic mental/neuropsychiatric disorders get "transmitted" from one person to another. E.g. couples who simultaneously have depression, OCD/tic disorder with the same compulsions/tics, psychopathic traits or the like, and where it is clearly evident that originally only one of the two had the disorder (once they get separated the other person quickly loses these symptoms). 
Can such a thing like shared compulsive behaviors be called "folie a deux" when it striktly is no "madness" (folie) by means of psychosis? (You should be able to find examples of such reports by typing combinations of "folie a deux" with terms like OCD, depression, hoarding... in your search engine. This at least was successful for me.)
And, especially when it comes to tics and compulsions, the term "folie a deux" also comes close to a different neuropsychiatric disorder called echophenomenon, which means that one person unintentionally imitates words or movements of another person. If the term folie a deux is generalized to non-psychotic mental illnesses, how is it related to echophenomena (which can be complex as well, e.g. imitating someone's entire body posture and movement "style" or imitating entire phrases that have been spoken, including the tone of voice), and how can the two be distinguished?
--2003:E7:7704:B732:804:608C:6076:D8D2 (talk) 00:00, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  use of the term for shared non-psychotic disorders and relationship to echophenomena 

message: The article says:
:As with most psychological disorders, the extent and type of delusion varies, however it usually mimics the delusion of the inducer and is almost very similar to it.
I have two problems with that.
# Prior to this passage, the delusions have been classified as either imposed or simultaneous; the second part of the passage clearly applies to imposed type, but that should be made clearer.
#  "almost very"?!? Perhaps a word is missing, e.g. "almost always very"?
--Nø (talk) 16:57, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Almost very... 

message: The article briefly mentions that it's not in the DSM-5 and then never brings that up again. Is there a known reason why it's not in the DSM-5 (given that it was in the DSM-4)? Does the American Psychiatric Association believe it's not real, or it's the same as another named disorder, or that it should be distributed over several other named disorders, or what? David Marjanović (talk) 12:43, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  *Why* is it no longer in the DSM? 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :Allophrenia. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 December 13#Allophrenia until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  signed, Rosguill talk 23:33, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Allophrenia" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]