Talk:M1903 Springfield

message: is there any chance we could add an info box Uber555 20:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: infobox

message: Good start on a B-class. Weapon infobox (see Project page) needs added.--Oldwildbill 07:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article needs to be cleaned up in it's layout. I think the best "template" would be the M1 Garand. The layout, order and organisation of the information on this page are optimal and relevant to the historian and the gun buff. Currently this article is more suited to the former. Veritas Panther 01:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article

message: The rifle's bullet penetrated dry sand better at the longer distance? Madmaxmarchhare 19:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dry Sand? 

message: I have a source that supports that, if some one will help me set it up it would be much appreciated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.222.157.59 (talk) 14:09, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation found for M1903A1 

message: I would like to ask Esskater to please explain the reason for his undiscussed move of this article from M1903 Springfield rifle to M1903 rifle. Moves such as this one should usually be discussed prior to their occurrence, and in this case I think it should be discussed if this move should stay, as the rifle in question is very frequently referred to as the M1903 Springfield rifle.--LWF 17:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The recent move 

message: Wouldnt the whole write up on how far its capable of penetrating various materials go better on the .30-06 page than on this page?  EO  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.180.196.202 (talk) 09:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The penetration chart appears to be from millitary training materials used with the Springfield rifle and military issue .30-06 ammunition. Other .30-06 rifles and bullet types would give different performance. --Naaman Brown (talk) 02:40, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Penetraion of various materials

message: Mention could be given to the thousands sold to Britain after Dunkirk in WWII , they were used for Regular Army and then the Home Guard afetr supplies of Lee Enfields matched demand Jim Sweeney (talk) 17:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You may be thinking of the US M1917 Enfield rifle, which was sometimes called a Springfield in error; 734,000 of these were purchased by the UK in 1940 and 1941. Alansplodge (talk) 01:26, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: British Service

message: Like many weapons, this has many different names attached to it.  Grandpa called it 'the rifle' (as opposed to our Winchester 1894) or the " '03' " or the " '06' " Referring to either the year or the caliber.  There were three models produced, during the war, just like the M-16 of Vietnam, several companies made the same designed rifle.  Some shot better than others.  Springfield Armory made some, but Colt made some as well, as well as companies which no longer exist except as memories.  The OFFICIAL NAME is the M-1903, and the various (?) improvements (?) were then sub-named A-1, A-2 and the A-3.  While Springfield WAS the company of origin, just as the Armalite corporation was the company of origin for the M-16, Colt ended up buying out Armalite, and keeping it as a subdivision for many years before it spun it off again - so many of the AR (Automatic [also Armalite] Rifle) 14, 15 and 16's were made by Colt, would you look under Armalite or under Colt for the factory of Origin.  Often the company just adds prestige to a name - such as the "SAA" -- Single Action Army can also be the "Peace Maker" or the "Colt Peacemaker" or simply "the 45" and later with the addition of Browning's Automatic Pistol, Colt (APC) it became a "45 Long" or "Long 45" -- the military name was the M-1903A-1, M-1903A2 or the last version, the M-1903A3, which was often reserved for 'sniping' because it had extra groves and lands thus spinning the bullet faster, sooner, and making it more accurate.  This also went along with the inventions for more uniform and higher tolerance bullets and casings. M is the destination for a military weapon, thus the M-16 and not the AR-16, though both are correct, as is the Colt M-16 or even the Colt-AR-16.  
The correct name is the M-16 if you are speaking of a military issue weapon.  If you are speaking of a civilian issue weapon, for example, a 'sport' version (hunting version) using exactly the same parts except for the frame -- would be the 1903 Springfield.  Just as the semi-automatic version of the M-16 is generally called the AR-16 when issued as a civilian or Semi-automatic rifle.
This can cause some problems since the M-1 can refer to either the M-1 Garand rifle, a heavy 30-06 chambered weapon, or the M-1 CARBINE which is a small 30 caliber carbine meant to take the place of the more expensive Automatic Colt Pistol (M-1911 [in general the A-1 version] if issued by the military or simply the 1911 or 1911A1 (or any of it's many configurations)  if bought as a civilian side arm) to the M-1 Abrams -- a reasonably massive Long Range Battle Tank in all IT'S configurations M-1-A1, etc. I don't think it would be called a '1', though the M-1903 is well known as the civilian issue 1903 (A1-3) and the Colt 45 Long Single Action Army as simply the "SAA".
The same can be said of the 45-70 -- some add 'government' to the end, and this may be that the cambering on the government issue is from one (or two) to a fractional thousandths of an inch off of the original 45-70 Sharps barreling and exactly WHICH 45-70 you are using (steep wall, carbine, rifle, etc), which is a fractional (or few fractional) thousandths off modern 45-70's.  If you go to several different reloading books you will see the +- in some, and an absolute value in others.  It all get's very confusing. And then you get into the introduction of more powerful powder concoctions and the caliber stays the same, but the chamber where the initial explosion occurs, and the thickness of the brass changes by just a few fractional thousandths of an inch as metallurgy changes.  It gets very complicated as you can see.   
For example take the 308 caliber and the 7,62x51mm NATO cartrage. They are CONSIDERED TO BE EXACTLY THE SAME. HOWEVER: The difference is ARGUABLY in the thickness of the brass, and the diameter of the bullet.  Both are considered to be the same in the 'real world', though shooting a .308 in a 7.62 or the other way around will result in a difference of pressures and includes the percentage of re-usable brass. And accuracy of a SPECIFIC rifle. I do have to stress the word 'ARGUABLY' since I have been reading extensively on the subject for a few years and the amount of RELIABLE information is quite dirth.  Though the amount of REPEATED information is extensive. And some is simply personal preference between the two rounds.  The difference seems to be mainly among re-loaders of precision rounds and then the EXACT signature of each action, barrel, and shooter comes into play.  Though if one plows through military jargon one does see differences pop up here and there, and they are 'real world non-applicable'.
I am a long-range target shooter, not bench rest, but close, and can pull down any of perhaps 8 books which give different loads for different manufacturers of power and brass and bullets. I know what shoots neat perfection out of my rifle, but it might not even get on the paper out of your rifle, and the same is true of your load, my rifle might not be able to punch paper at 200 meters out of it's barrel.  MY loads are written in the margins as they change with humidity, temperature, number of rounds shot, age of power, etc -- so even something as scientific as an approved printed book of tables can be wrong -- and right -- at the same time.  So, to even the playing field, every 'field load' comes out just a little different -- buy Remington in it's various grades, do the same for Winchester, UMC, Speer, etc -- and put your rifle in a bench-rest vice and shoot away and each bullet-power-cartrage load will punch holes in a different place on the target.  Off the shelf Remington 150 grain caliber 270 will shoot all over the target out of my Remington 700 at 200 yards -- I might even miss the paper.  But put in a 130 grain load and I will punch out the center of a small arms target at 200 yards. HERE is where you can be picky and not just say Remington 700 caliber 270 - suddenly the little things make a difference -- and my precision rifle is NOT the Remington, that's my hunting rifle.    
I vote to continue to use the MILITARY ISSUE name for military weapons Even if the M-1 is both a carbine and a battle tank.  A simple branch can take you to the weapon system you are researching.  It should not be difficult to tell the difference by either a photo, or simply looking at the weight or size of bullet fired from ANY barrel of the tank.  It is VERY doubtful that any GI in or around an Abrams Battle Tank will be armed with an M-1 30 caliber carbine.
Sometimes the ONLY difference between a military weapon is the serial number.  An example for the Sig-Sauer P-226 used by the navy starts with the letter 'U'.  Any Sig-Sauer P-226 used by the Navy Seals, has an USN anchor stamp and a lanyard attachment on it. The Military Designation for this weapon is MP-2267 -- Military (or) Police 226, the Sig-Sauer is understood, and if issued to the military the serial number is different and they might have a fancy stamp (like the seals stamp of crossed anchors) or the lanyard attachment.
Stick with M-1903 as the original issue THEN you can talk about the differences between the A-1, A-2 and A-3 models.  A 1903 is a civilian rifle, an M-1903 is a military weapon.  And you can only tell if Springfield made it by looking at the proofing stamps on the barrel, receiver, bolt, etc.  It's possible you have a Springfield barrel, a Colt Bolt, and an Ithaca receiver and the wooden frame from Greer and Laing and a Bannerman firing pin! which part is most important?
68.126.134.26 (talk) 23:27, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  USE THE MILITARY NAME OF RIFLE 

message: The M1903 rifle began to be used by the Philippines when it was an American colony. During World War II, it was used by the Philippine Constabulary, the Philippine Army and by guerrillas.  After the American colonial period, the M1903 rifle was used primarily by ROTC units. Presently, it's still used by some ceremonial units.
It is noteworthy that Philippine-made wooden variants of the M1903, known as dummy rifles, were extensively used by high school cadets.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.28.156.11 (talk) 10:43, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Philippine service

message: The characteristic allegedly responsible for subject appellation (a bullet remaining supersonic at the point of impact) was typical of most military rifles of the period, and all weapons firing the .30 caliber 1906 cartridge.  It may not be intuitively obvious those on the receiving end of supersonic rifle fire may hear each bullet generating a sonic shock wave sounding like a "snap" as it passes; and that snap, since it originates at the bullet rather than the firing weapon, can be perceived prior to the arrival of the deeper "boom" sound generated by powder gas emerging from the muzzle of the firearm.  That sonic shock wave makes silencers relatively ineffective on weapons firing supersonic ammunition.  I have requested a reference citation, and feel the statement should be removed unless a reference specific to the M1903 rifle is provided.Thewellman (talk) 07:28, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In the absence of a reference citation, I removed the statement.Thewellman (talk) 02:54, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Weapon of silent death?

message: :Did early versions of the M1903 incorporate a magazine cut-off? If so I would like to incorporate it into the article, but it is not mentioned in mainspace, and as this is a mature well-written article I would assume it would have been incorporated before. Any thoughts? Irondome (talk) 01:27, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Magazine cut-off 

message: The maximum range on this rifle should be fixed. The article claims over 5km range which is simply ridiculous, seeing as the longest range shot ever is 1.4km less than the claimed range, and was accomplished with far superior equipment.  the M1903 never had any sights attached that would allow it to achieve such a range, and could only potentially hit a target at that range when used as part of a squad volley fire with no wind. Thus, this range is not a capability of the rifle, but of a bunch of rifles used together.
Here is the source for the purported range of 5km that was cited on the M1917 Enfield page, page 31-33 
You can clearly see the range cited is in reference not to the rifle, but to the cartridge.  This claim of range should be moved to the .30-06 Springfield article and not be linked to a rifle that clearly couldn't make a shot at that range.
--142.167.27.183 (talk) 01:02, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The maximum "Sight Range" is 1200 yards. The maximum horizontal range at a bore angle of about 45 degrees is ~5 km, less at sea level, more on the Mount Everest. -- hmaag (talk) 10:59, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

text: When this rifle was designed, volley fire at long ranges was still a tactical doctrine. The idea was to have enough men firing enough bullets that something 'might' hit, until the enemy formation closed to a range where aimed shots could be made. As hmaag stated, 5km would have been the maximum range that volley fire from any firearm chambered in .30-06 could be potentially used at.  − Bardbom (talk) 03:07, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Maximum Range

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The following statement can be found in the introductory paragraph: "However, the M1903 Springfield remained in service as a standard issue infantry rifle during World War II, since the U.S. entered the war without sufficient M1 rifles to arm all troops [emphasis added]." I'm wondering if it might be more accurate to say "substitute standard," "limited issue," or "second-line issue" but I want to get input before I make the edit as it may have been more widely issued during the war than I realized. Alternatively, it could be specified that while the 1st Marine Division carried it on Guadalcanal, few, if any, large units maintained the M1903 as their primary issue weapon. Thanks in advance--I look forward to your input! --AtTheAbyss (talk) 05:14, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Conceptually, I can see both descriptions as accurate. Can you find a reputable source for the version you propose? Thewellman (talk) 16:35, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is one Table of Organization and Equipment for the Marine Corps showing the M1 Garand as the standard issue rifle; there are a ton of TOE tables for the Army and Marine Corps throughout the war that would show the same thing (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/OOB/Regt-TOE-F/). Beyond that, the M1 Garand was issued on a far wider scale (https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/6/8/the-remington-m1903-rifles/) than the M1903 in WWII. One school of thought holds that a major US advantage in WWII was that the US issued semi-automatic rifles on a far wider scale than any other nation--but that's getting off topic.--AtTheAbyss (talk) 06:53, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Standard issue? 

message: What is this about "aperture sights" on original M1903s? All the rifles I've ever seen were given a normal notch-style rear sight, up until the 03A3, which has a aperture right over the rear receiver bridge where you'd expect it too be. Obviously a aperture mounted where the old rear sight was would be useless, so what's all this about "aperture sight mounted too far forward to be any good". This can't be the A3, and I have a hard time believing they ever mounted an aperture sight on the forward rear sight base. How would you even use it? It certainly wasn't standard on all 03s, which is what this seems to suggest. AnnaGoFast (talk) 05:20, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Aperture sight"? 

message: How could the weapon have been used in the Americano-philipine war when that conflict ended in 1902 and the weapon started being used in 1903 ?
Maxime12346 (talk) 16:17, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use in Philipine 

message: The article cited for claiming that Springfield had to pay $250,000 to Mauser Werke for patent infringement claims that the amount is a myth. The article states that Springfield did pay for Mauser patents. In the book American Rifle, https://books.google.com/books/about/American_Rifle.html?id=DgdRTPAvoOQC, it is stated that an agreement between Springfield and Mauser was reached that amounted to four checks totally $200,000 for patent use. DWM sued Springfield for the use of a spitzer shaped bullet that amounted to $250,000. A suit was later filed that amounted to $300,000, for unlawful seizure of patents during the Great War. It was eventually ruled that the US government owed DWM $300,000 plus interest for the unlawful seizure of patents.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ostsan (talk • contribs) 02:27, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Springfield payments to Mauser 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :M1903 Springfield's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Congo":
From FN Model 24 and Model 30: 
From M3 submachine gun: 
From Vickers machine gun: 
Reference named "Smith":
From MG 08: 
From Chiang Kai-shek rifle: 
From Mauser: 
From Azerbaijan: 
From Malayan Emergency: 
From Vz. 24: Smith, p. 295
Reference named "Davis":
From Philippine–American War: 
From 305th Infantry Regiment (United States): 
From Algeria: 
From M1911 pistol: Davis and Raynor(1976), Safe Pistols Made Even Safer, American Rifleman, Jan. 1976
Reference named "Chaco":
From Vickers machine gun: 
From MP 18: 
From Mauser Model 1904: 
From FN Model 24 and Model 30: 
From Smith & Wesson Model 10: 
From M1911 pistol: 
Reference named "TG":
From Venezuela: 
From Thompson submachine gun: 
Reference named "Gazette":
From Chauchat: 
From Remington Arms: 
From Pattern 1914 Enfield: 
Reference named "Davies":
From Madagascar: Davies (2003), pp. 99–101
From Lion: Arthur Fox-Davies, A Complete Guide to Heraldry, T.C. and E.C. Jack, London, 1909, Chapter XI, https://archive.org/details/completeguidetoh00foxduoft.
From Belarus: Norman Davies, God's Playground (Polish edition), second tome, pp. 512–513
Reference named "Jones":
From Malta: 
From Colorado Coalfield War: 
From Patrick J. Hamrock: 
From M14 rifle: 
From M1911 pistol: 
From .38 Special: 
From List of big-game hunters: Colin Jones, The great nation: France from Louis XV to Napoleon 1715-99, London: Allen Lane, 2002, .
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 20:31, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:M1903 Springfield]] 

message: It seems to me this article should mention the warning from the Civilian Marksmanship Program: "CMP does not recommend firing any Springfield rifle with a 'low number' receiver... CMP also does not recommend firing any Springfield rifle, regardless of serial number, with a single heat-treated 'low number' bolt." Does anyone disagree? For more info, click here. BuzzWeiser196 (talk) 15:56, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This would seem to fall under WP:NOTHOWTO. Loafiewa (talk) 16:38, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  The reason for that recommendation is covered in the first two paragraphs of the World War I and interwar use section of this article.  Another widely circulated warning was the danger of firing 8x57mm cartridges in these rifles because the cartridge had a similar base to the .30/1906 but had a larger diameter bullet; but I agree these warnings would be inappropriate in this article.  The internal ballistics article discusses some of the large number of variables potentially causing unsafe ammunition/firearm combinations with any firearm.  The headspace (firearms) article describes another of the potential problems arising from exchanging bolts from similar firearms. Thewellman (talk) 20:36, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add Warning Against Firing M1903?