Talk:Yoga/Archive 1

message: * integrate list of yamas & niyamas from Ashtanga Yoga page.
* diferentiate ashtanga yoga as a generic term from the ashtanga yoga of pratabbi jois.
* uh, what happened to yoga between 200 ad and 1931?
* as mentioned above, other forms of yoga. Jfeckstein 03:21, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: yeah, agreed, I'm removing it. Also, re what happened to yoga between 200 ad and 1931 (above), it followed a pretty traditional course, apparently (there's not a whole lot of history...it's been passed on by verbal tradition). It's only started exploding and fracturing in this century.O. Pen Sauce 06:00, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: todo

message: Since this is meant to be an encyclopedia article, perhaps we could cut down on the metaphysical lingo?
: I agree. I came to this page to learn something about yoga, but found the entry filled with technical words that presumably only mean something to someone versed with Hindu/Yoga terminology. Remember, this is an encyclopedia article not a religious tract or 'how-to' paper. The tone should be objective and not presume that the reader believes the views described. Please look to articles on other religious practices as style guides.
: I hate to be critical, the authors have obviously got good knowledge of the area, but need to present it better. Ashmoo 05:59, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think your many Christian churches think it is evil as they regard all other religions as evil. I think such a section would be best included in the entry of the church in quesion. Ashmoo 05:38, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "...it is universal, all-valid, eternal knowledge." 

message: Nothing about how Yoga is seen as evil by many Christian churches? Nothing about how yoga may lead adherents unwittingly, into devil worship (say some Christians)?
The Number 02:46, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think your many Christian churches think it is evil as they regard all other religions as evil. I think such a section would be best included in the entry of the church in quesion. Ashmoo 05:38, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Evil?

message: I think we need to improve the explanation of yoga's relationship with Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma). The current wording of the first paragraph seems to give the impression that yoga is part of Hinduism. This could lead to a false assumption that only Hindus can practice yoga. (There was no response for several days so I commented it out.)
A better wording should be found, explaining that, while commonly associated with Hinduism the religion, yoga itself is not a religion nor part of any religion. Rather, it is a "spiritual science" or path of spiritual practice that enables the practitioner to experience the true meaning of spiritual principles common to all religions and realize them within the practitioner's own self.
References to Hinduism should be taken out of the introductory paragraph and the explanation of yoga's relation to Hinduism that we agree on could be made a separate paragraph or section. The section could carry a subtitle like "Spiritual Dimension of Yoga" or simply "Yoga and Hinduism". (I did this, except the title is "Yoga and Religion".)
I realize this may evoke some discussion, so I wrote it here first so we can discuss it before making the necessary edits in the article. As yoga practitioners, I believe we have a duty to make the article as all-embracing as possible, as yoga is all-embracing. Not just limit it to Hinduism. We could also discuss how the esoteric and monastic traditions in other religions are similar to yoga.
(Again, there was no comment for several days so I went ahead and edited the article in this vein. I'm open to any discussion.) Smithfarm 15:05, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: But historically, Yoga is a part of Hinduism isn't it? See my comment in "...it is universal, all-valid, eternal knowledge." My objection to the current intro, as written, still stands.
I don't really understand your point. What I hear you saying is that the intro should talk more about the historical origins of Yoga. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I agree my feelings are that we shouldn't "ring-fence" Yoga around Hindu teachings, even though Hinduism was quite clearly the major benefactor. The Yoga teachings evolved from the wider Indian Spiritiuality (Vedas) before ehe pre-Christian (BC) era... It became an intrinsic part of and adopted by the many indigenous religions like Hinduism and Buddhism... ** somehting like that would be a better introduction **
I certainly wouldn't object if the introduction mentioned that, according to historians, yoga probably originated within the wider context of Hindu culture but that there is no way to be sure. For their part, yoga teachers say that yoga was taught long, long before the invention of written language and its origins are too ancient to trace. Also, let us not forget that Wikipedia already has a History of Yoga article. We could link to it in the first paragraph in addition to the current link which is buried at the end of the article.
Obviously this article needs a ton of work but arriving at a consensus on the first paragraph would be a good start. I wouldn't agree with language that states or implies that yoga is "a part of" or in any way "limited to" Hinduism. That was my objection to the previous first paragraph that I commented out. Hinduism is a religion, yoga is not. Thanks to Swami Vivekananda and those who followed him, the days when yoga was exclusively a "part of" the Hindu cultural context are long gone. But we could say that, historically, yoga has been and to a certain extent still is seen by many as associated with Hindu culture.
I wrote two more paragraphs but decided to move them to my talk page.
Smithfarm 10:43, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yoga and Hinduism 

message: I think for readers to be able to trust Wikipedia articles, articles need to stick to the tasks of classifying, summarizing, providing historical information, or otherwise describing the context and constituent "parts" of a subject. So while talking about Yoga in its cultural, religious and modern contexts is a good thing, I think this article loses credibility because it strays into the promotion of yoga.
For example, "Most religions, when viewed through their ethical and spiritual standpoints without the trappings of dogma, are easily reconcilable with Yoga philosophy in general because of its transcendental message." This implicity puts yoga above other beliefs. Also, this sort of statement without any examples is difficult for a reader to evaluate and comes across as mere promotion.
Another example, "It may be possible to explain the yogic cure of acquired diseases like AIDS, but it is not possible for medical science to cure congenital or hereditary ailments. This impossible looking task has also been made possible by the Indian Yoga Philosophy. A patient of Haemophilia, Master Hemant, has been completely cured through Siddha Yoga. His cure is an open challenge to physical sciences." This sort of stuff is just downright fishy. Not that I doubt the power of yoga outright, but this is a very strong claim of medical benefits for yoga that may or may not be supported/supportable by inquiry that conforms to contemporary standards. It is also blatantly antagonistic towards modern medicine, and, once again, it offers no data on which the reader could make a reasonable assessment of the claim. I would suggest that this sort of statement is irresponsible.
Wikipedia articles should stay away from this sort of writing because if we get a large number of articles making these sorts of claims, the combined effect will be to damage the credibility of the project itself. I'm not anti yoga. I would just like to see a more responsible treatment of the subject on Wikipedia. If I want hype, there are thousands of other yoga sites. Wikipedia is a place for reliable info. (31 Jul 2005 Anon.)
:I totally agree. The claims that a Master Yogi has cured 'millions' of cancer, and a long string of other diseases is downright preposterous. I added the 'pov' and 'cleanup' templates. I saw many spelling errors. Gbeeker 04:05, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Make this article more professional 

message: Is it just me or do I detect a bias against the late Harbhajan Singh Khalsa Yogiji, aka Yogi Bhajan, as well as his kundalini yoga? Since bringing his style of kundalini yoga from India in 1968, a lot of his teachers and students have benefited from this discipline. Does his organization, the Healthy, Happy, Holy Organization (3HO) (http://www.3ho.org) deserve to be so ignored in your yoga and kundalini yoga sections?
Hey 68.
It's not "our" page. "We" aren't ignoring Yogi Bhajan. He was my first yoga teacher, and a great man in many, many ways. Write it up, buddy! --Nemonoman 00:59, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  great yoga teachers section doesn't include Yogi Bhajan? 

message: What christian? I don't know any christians who believe that, altho I'm sure certain calvinist / baptist types could be persuaded (maybe you should ring up Fred Phelps and ask him to make a press release on the subject...). Anyways, unless you can cite someone else expressing these views (or get notable yourself in a hurry) they shouldn't be in an encyclipedia article. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 21:43, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian View 

message: Why nothing on Yoga as an excercise form? Trollderella 16:11, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Excercise

message: I'd like to see a section about the supposed health benefits of yoga. What has been proved, etc.?--Sonjaaa 08:14, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
You must be talking about Hatha Yoga which is the yoga that uses physical exercises. Unfortunately, that page isn't as well developed as this one. I will try to add something to clarify in this page - as most traffic is generated on this page for Hatha Yoga.--Pranathi 14:38, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Health (Hatha Yoga)

message: User Wikimachine, thank you for your interest in the Diversity of yoga section. Your turning of this section into a list of definitions was well-intentioned and made in good faith, but you might have missed the fine shades of what I was trying to do here. I did not intend this section to contain definitions of the four main yogas. Such definitions can be found both in the section on Hindu yoga (needs work) and in the separate articles. Also, the article leads by saying that:
::Traditionally, Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Jnana Yoga, and Raja Yoga are considered the four main yogas.
I have since added:
::(See section on Hindu yoga for definitions.)
I hope this helps resolve your concerns.
The Diversity section discusses a continuum of practices which yoga may include. This is intended to overcome the confusion that arises in readers when presented (too soon) with definitions which tend to separate and restrict (rather than unify) the different yogas. I have respectfully reverted, because imposing a definitional structure here defeats the original intent of this section - which was to explain that the four main yogas admit of subdivision and synthesis, and that there is a continuum of practices which need not be mutually exclusive. Keeping things fluid and inclusive here also helps avoid offending practitioners of yogas other than the main four.
Perhaps your definitions might be integrated into the Hindu yoga section. Having reverted, I'm posting your definitions here:
:*Bhakti Yoga - the way of devotion and piety.
:*Karma Yoga - the way of good actions, such as helping others and donating to temples.
:*Jnana Yoga - the way of knowledge: to know the sacred scripts (vedas) and understand the workings in the universe.
:*Raja Yoga - the way of contemplation or meditation.
I'm not crazy about these definitions, but want to keep them on the table. I'm also not crazy about the current definitions (in the Bhagavad-Gita section), which are:
:(1) Karma yoga, the yoga of "action" in the world
:(2) Jnana yoga, the yoga of meditation or intellectual endeavor
:(3) Bhakti yoga, the yoga of devotion to a deity (for example, to Krishna)
Long term, maybe people can make suggestions about the definitions and work toward consensus. Thanks again for your interest and your time. --Fencingchamp 19:20, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Diversity of yoga

message: Substituted at 21:03, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment