Talk:Soviet war crimes (WWII)

message: Started on April 2nd, 2007 as a translation from its German counterpart, expanding the article Red Army atrocities in such a way, that a new articel had to be created.  --Dionysos 10:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just an FYI, I may jump in and do some copy-editing to try to tone down a bit of the POV that seems to have carried over - "per se criminal government" and "inhuman civil war" were the first two that jumped out at me.  I'll try to leave everything factual intact, but make it more neutral in overall tone. This isn't enough of my area for me to really fact-check stuff, but that sort of smaller improvement is something I can do. The Dark 20:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

message: The title of the article itself, "Red Army atrocities" is inherently not NPOV. Propose this gets moved to "Red Army war crimes" or something like that. howcheng  {chat} 23:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just out of curiosity (I’m not trying to be a wiseguy or anything like that), but why move this to “Red Army war crimes”? What’s wrong with “atrocities,” emotive connotations?Also, I’d like to know “per-se criminal government” and “inhumane civil war” (especially the latter) are POV. These are serious questions, as I’d like to be enlightened about how expressions can be interpreted as POV. This might help avert future edit controversies when the POV character of a word or phrase is not obvious to those of us not practiced in spotting such things. Thanks, Jim_Lockhart 07:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, "war crimes" was just a suggestion. But as you pointed out, "atrocities" has an emotive connotation, which I believe should be avoided. There might be a better term for it, but I'm don't have enough experience editing in these kinds of topics to say. howcheng  {chat} 16:41, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Of what crimes was Stalin convicted?  I will admit it was a brutal government, and one whose actions most likely were criminal, but to actively state it was a criminal government is something which is not neutral when dealing with this topic, nor is it cited to an attributable source.  As for the civil war, if there is no humane civil war, than calling it inhumane is redundant and unnecessary.  If there is such a thing as a humane civil war, than evidence needs to be cited as to what made the Russian Civil War inhumane in comparison to other civil wars. The Dark 12:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Dear Piotrus,
Please, stop making any changes to any article without prior discussion. The same goes for adding or removing templates. Whenever a template states “under construction”, you can not just remove the template and afterwards claim that there were “ugly empty sections”. If you can not contribute to the article with facts, just leave it to those who can.
--Dionysos 17:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I too find Piotrus’s removable of the “under construction” notices and empty headings to be arbitrary and unilateral and wonder why he did that. Why can’t we let Dionysos finish his translation before we tear this apart? I thinking “being bold” is fine, but at the cost of common courtesy? Best, Jim_Lockhart 02:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: changes to the article are to be made in what way?

message: Dear Stor stark7, thank you so much for contributing to the article! The way you edit, it is editing facts! --Dionysos 17:34, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a problem with Romania. I haven't been able to find any specific information on how severe the rape problem was there. Naimarks book points to Romania and Hungary as being hardest hit before the RA entered German soil, especially in comparison with Bulgaria. In another place he talks of the relatively good discipline of the army that was in (or went through, cant remember right now) the Slovakia region (of Czechoslovakia) compared to the poor discipline of the army that entered Romania. However, besides those hints, he provides no hard data as to how many were raped. I think we should keep the heading Romania as an empty reminder and hope someone, perhaps a Romanian, can provide some info. I'm afraid I'm at a loss to do so. Naimark has some good info on the motivations for the rapes in Germany (revenge was just one of many complex reasons). I'll dig into that when I get some time over. --Stor stark7 Talk 22:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: C'est bien .--Dionysos 19:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Rapes

message: When Red Army entered Poland it engaged in wholescale rapes, plunder, banditry and murder of Polish people not only in 1939 but also in second occupation after 1944 when they started winning the struggle for occupation of Poland with Nazis. There are several articles now describing crimes of the invading Red Army , hopefully more will come-could someone add section on atrociites made upon Polish people by Soviets in this time period in this article ? 
:I do agree! Hopefully, even more will come up from countries as Romania, Hungry, Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc.. Not to mention Austria, Lithuania, Estonia and Lithuania and others. All of them had to take the regular murder, raping, looting and tortures of completely innocent children, women and older people by Red Army soldiers. Furthermore, we should indeed pay some more attention to the role of Polish Red Army regiments (succesors of the Anders Army) and their atrocities in the Ukraine and in the Baltic States of 1943-45.--Dionysos 17:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poland 1944 

message: This is from last talk show by Yulia Latynina  This is Russian (maybe this needs to be translated and included in this article) (this is from memories of Russian writer Leonid Ryabichev; Germany, February 1945):
"Во всех комнатах трупы детей и стариков и изнасилованных и застреленных женщин. Изнасилованных наступающими российскими войсками. В нашем дому три больших комнаты. Две мертвые женщины и три мертвые девочки. Юбки у всех задраны, а между ног донышками наружу торчат пустые винные бутылки. Я иду вдоль стены дома. Вторая дверь, коридор и еще две смежные комнаты – на каждой из кроватей, их три, лежат мертвые женщины с раздвинутыми ногами и бутылками".
Перед эти Рабичев описывает другую картину – как его машина едет вдоль шоссе, и вдоль всего шоссе, на котором Красная армия настигла беглецов, этих женщин, этих девочек не сотнями, а тысячами насилуют. И как его люди становятся в эту очередь. Цитирую:
«Женщины – матери и их дочери – лежат справа и слева вдоль шоссе, и перед каждой стоит гогочущая армада мужиков со спущенными штанами. Обливающихся кровью и теряющих сознание оттаскивают в сторону. Бросающихся на помощь им детей расстреливают. Гогот, рычание, смех, крики и стоны. Потрясенный, я сидел в кабине полуторки, шофер мой, Демидов, стоял в очереди, а мне мерещился Карфаген Флобера, и я понимал, что война далеко не все спишет. А полковник, тот, который только что дирижировал, не выдерживает и сам занимает очередь, а майор отстреливает свидетелей, бьющихся в истерике детей и стариков». 
Biophys 17:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Interesting source

message: I have tagged this article to WikiProject Estonia.  However, I'm not entirely sure of this classification.  What is the consensus? Digwuren 18:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: WikiProject Estonia

message: Would you please prove that Marinesko committed a crime? Alexander Marinesko doesn't accuse him.Xx236 13:26, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unrestricted submarine warfare 

message: The quoted article is about many things, why this sentence has been selected? It shouild be removed.Xx236 13:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ilya Ehrenburg 

message: It seems that many people know how to not write about Red Army crimes, so they are many people eager to remove. What about a postive program of describing the crimes? The article about Wehrmacht contains paragraph Wehrmacht#War years#War crimes.Xx236 14:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Systematical removals