Talk:Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople

message: I do not think that the titles of the Patriarch are correct in the Greek language. Perhaps someone who speaks Greek fluently could check it. The titles in English are correct. I checked them with the first line of: http://www.ec-patr.org/athp/index.php?lang=en
--Msl5046 16:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed

message: this page contains no actual information...
:Well, it's a year later, but now it does contain some info. --Delirium 01:21 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Pontian Greek community that was largely killed or expelled by the Turks in the early 20th century.
Nothing but point of view and propaganda. Zfr 22:23, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The replacement nonsense legitimizing murder as "as a result of agreements" is nothing but point of view and propaganda. --Delirium 09:46, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
Hahaha! <== This is a POV!
I think its time for an update of this page, and also a new photo.  Patriarch Bartholomew is the second most important person in Christianity
No, he's far more important than the pope, Dr. Dobson or anyone else you can come up with. Proeliator Sancti 15:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

text: In the Gregorian.--Hectorian 00:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I think u are confusing him with Patriarch Alexius II of Moscow. Hectorian 17:06, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other

message: I put the slash back in because he was not born Demetrios Archontonis Δημήτριος Αρχοντώνης, but rather Δημήτριος Αρχοντώνης; the slash makes clear that the same name is being presented in two alphabets. Biruitorul 08:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The slash

message: If Pope Benedict visits Istanbul this November, this will be the 3rd papal visit to the Patriarchate since the Schism, not the 1st, as is written in the article. Pope Paul VI was the first who visited Constantinople (he met Patriarch Athenagoras) and then Pope John Paul II came again visiting Patriarch Demetrius. Furthermore, Patriarch Bartholomew is a honorary doctor, not professor, of the universities listed here, and he has never been a Professor of the Gregorian Pontifical University. As far as I know, he has taken his doctorate there. (Obviously the writer has confused the titles doctor, meaning the holder of a doctoral degree, and professor, meaning an active university tutor) Besides there is virtually no information about his studies in the text...
:It was me who added the info about the universities where he is a honorary tutor... I, cause of my backgroung, may confuse the titles of "tutor" and "doctor" (in Greek, doctor=γιατρός, meaning doctor, in the medical sense, and "doctora" in Greek, means a form of post-graduate degree...). Feel free to make changes needed. i also do not know where Bartholomew got his doctora from-if u are sure, add it, with a source pls... As for the Papal visits, this is the first time that a Pope will officially visit an Ecumenical Patriarch. this is what is exceptional with this. Papal-Ecumenical Patriarcal meetings have occured 4 times so far, i think: 1st in Jerusalem, then Athenagoras visited John Paul I in the Vatican, then John Paul II went to Constantinople, then Bartholomew visited John Paul II (the later had sceduled a visit, but he did not make it, cause of his illness and then death...). I can't remember of a John Paul visit to Demetrius... But, in any case, this is the first official visit in 1 thousand years... Hectorian 02:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe any medieval pope visited Constantinople, and they certainly didn't after 1453.  99.231.111.157 (talk) 07:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some remarks 

message: Just added a infobox and restructured the article. Didn't make any changes to the actual text, though. OrthodoxGuy 01:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restructure 

message: Delirium, the wrong thing is not with the paranthesis, or the "see ..." format. The problem is that the link to Istanbul Pogrom article really doesn't belong to that paragraph, and is an instance of "see also" push people do when they feel angry about something in the past and they want to make it known by linking the article from every place possible. Adding a "see Istanbul Pogrom" to the Patriarch's biography just because he is of Greek origin is clearly an instance of this. It is also why the link stays in parantheses unlike the rest of the links in the paragraph, because there really isn't a clear mention of how this event relates to the Patriarch's biography. Atilim Gunes Baydin 15:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The Patriarch is a Turkish citizen with Greek ethnicity (See Istanbul Pogrom)" 

message: Please read the guidelines, contentius info must be removed about living persons. --Ceco31 (talk) 10:54, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume you are referring to "first among equals" as the contentious phrase in question here, per the edit by . I would like to point out that the policy only refers to unsourced or poorly-sourced contentious assertions. This phrase is neither. You have provided no evidence that it is contentious, and it is sourced at the Christian Post article, reference number 4. So no, you do not have license to violate WP:3RR, and you will be reported for edit-warring if you continue on this tear. Elizium23 (talk) 20:13, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I will also point out that Laurel has incorrectly applied WP:PEACOCK. This guideline only applies to unattributed assertions which do not impart verifiable information, which is plainly not the case here. Elizium23 (talk) 22:03, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Leader of worlds all 300 million Orthodox is a Peacock unofficial definition, for a living person contenitious material must be deleted whether it is positive or negative without discussion in accordance to WP:GRAPEVINE. Please read it it is clear, there must be no jokes with living persons.--Ceco31 (talk) 22:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again, you have presented no evidence for your case, and the evidence against you is already in the article. These are well-sourced statements and therefore they do not fall under WP:GRAPEVINE or WP:PEACOCK. Elizium23 (talk) 00:08, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

text: , you apparently are unaware that "first among equals" refers to honorary position only, not to any authority within the church administration. It is the English translation of the phrase that has always been used to describe relative position among the highest Orthodox authorities in the church, resting upon the see of the highest precedence. Before the East-West Schism, the eastern Christians that eventually came to comprise the Orthodox churches conferred this honor upon the Pope of Rome, since Rome was the seat of the see of highest honor. After the schism, the honor devolved to the Patriarchate of Constantinople as the see of next highest position. If the Orthodox and Catholic churches ever reconciled, the honor would presumably rest once again with Rome. But the phrase itself is now used also to differentiate the Orthodox and Catholic views of the role that the holder of the "highest" see takes in the church. Unlike Orthodoxy, Catholics regard "first" as a description of authority as well as honor. The "ecumenical" patriarch of Orthodoxy then, is a spiritual leader recognized and honored by all the Orthodox Church, but is not responsible for administration of more than the one patriarchate. "First among equals" is definitely not a "peacock" term, having been in recognized use for centuries. Evensteven (talk) 23:21, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

text: I am fine with the "first among equals". I am not saying this is peacock and contentious. What is contentious about a living person is "leader of worlds 300 million Orthodox Christians", isnt it? What would you say about that? A claim that is ABSOLUTELY unofficial AND PERSONALLY INTERPRETED and including 5% of the worlds population isnt contentious and peacock? I think its clear and I wonder why such a large talk grew from this.--Ceco31 (talk) 18:18, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: He is a Patriarch, by definition a "leader". He is the first among his equals, the other Patriarchs who are also leaders. It may be honorary in the sense that he does not carry the burden of authority over the entire Orthodox Church. Nevertheless, all those leaders are more than just administrators. They are also the living spiritual leaders of the autonomous churches, taking the leading role in services wherever they go. Except that this Patriarch would be given that leading honor there as well. It is how it has always been done in Orthodoxy, and every Orthodox person is aware of it. Moreover, the respect given to clerical offices, according to their rank, is understood universally; it is not given for the sake of the person (although that may additionally be given), but for the office and role first of all. Leadership is leadership, good or poor, but the leadership roles of the Orthodox are clear and hierarchical, and number one resides here. The numbers of Orthodox in the world are virtually uncountable with any great exactitude (mostly because of secular politics), but they are much greater than some in the west realize. The numbers are what they are, facts are facts, and the best estimates we have found give a count. Find a better estimate if you can, but be sure to avoid the biased estimates (they do exist). There's nothing contentious or peacock about stating what the sources say. Evensteven (talk) 07:52, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:GRAPEVINE]] 

message: I have opened a similar section at the Patriarch's article. Please reply there. Dr. K. 20:14, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Layman opinion polls 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Wikipedia is a secular, religious neutral encyclopedia. Accepting or using the formal style of address violates the NPOV principle. I 'd suggest we follow the example of other prominent clerics, ie pope Francis. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 20:25, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: This has nothing to do with NPOV. It is just a standard field of the :Template:Infobox Patriarch. As far as the pope, they use a different infobox type. Dr. K. 23:42, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that we should apply the pope's infobox here. Wikipedia just mention the style of address of each priest, not use them. Using them implies accepting that they are really great and Holy, and that God exist -which is not verifiable. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 06:43, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That's your opinion, but you cannot impose it until someone agrees with you. Meanwhile, cease edit-warring and the infobox-patriarch stays until there is consensus to remove it. Dr. K. 06:45, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Of Course is my opinion, it is legitimate to talk our opinion in a Talk Page. I wonder what the counter argument is.Τζερόνυμο (talk) 07:17, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It definitely is ok to give your opinion. Edit-warring is not, however, an acceptable practice. The argument here is that the infobox-patriarch has been designed with a field for the honorific-prefix. The infobox is designed by Wikipedians and its use is widely accepted and has WP:CONSENSUS. The field for the honorific-prefix is also widely accepted and it also has consensus. If you have any ideas that they should be changed, you have to wait until more editors agree with your reasoning. Trying to unilaterally impose your preference by edit-warring, is, obviously, not recommended. Dr. K. 07:38, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I am definitely willing to play by the rules. Can you please inform me where the current consensus for the honorific prefix was shaped? (just a link, if available) Τζερόνυμο (talk) 07:58, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: As I mentioned before, "The infobox is designed by Wikipedians and its use is widely accepted and has WP:CONSENSUS. The field for the honorific-prefix is also widely accepted and it also has consensus." If they did not have consensus, they would not have been designed to be used. If you want to make them disappear, you have to gain consensus. I hope this helps. Dr. K. 08:12, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Τζερόνυμο, I am sorry but this is not how Wikipedia works. Infoboxes were the result of cooperation among Wikipedians, not something that certain editors may add or remove at will. Infoboxes are here to stay, like it or not. Each infobox is designed around the needs of the person, whom the information displays. As you may have noticed, the Patriarch certainly is not Pope, and for that reason, different information is displayed about Patriarch than about Pope, reflecting each religion's differences. To come here and blatantly demanding that the Patriarch has his infobox replaced, is bound to cause only problems, not solve them and can be considered a form of disruption. I do not know when the infobox was created and by whom, but this talk page is about the Patriarch himself, not the appropriate page for discussing about infobox's creation, coding, technical aspects, and functions. --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 08:32, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: SilentUser, Wikipedia changes, and that is the only way to improve. Infoboxes can change as well. This is how Wikipedia works. Coming here and blatanly demand everything stays as it suits your POV, is bound to cause only problems, not solve them and can be considered a form of disruption. I am very willing to argue why it should change and this is the only way forward. That is the discussion and you can not forbid this. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 09:23, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to change infoboxes, this is the wrong venue. You should make a proposal at WP:VP. Meanwhile, you should follow WP:CIVIL and not accuse people of being disruptive. In addition, the editor's name is not Silentuser, it is SilentResident. Dr. K. 09:45, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Τζερόνυμο, the fact that you are demanding a change of the Patriarch's infobox type even though the current infobox type is specifically made for that Patriarch and serves the article's needs better than Pope's infobox could ever do, and accusing the other editors of POV instead of trying to discuss with them the reasons for why such a change is a necessity, (sorry but a mere title isn't a valid reason for changing the entire infobox), is very disruptive and I highly recommend you leave this article alone, unless you are here to contribute positively and are interested in fixing a broken thing or two instead of edit warring with other editors like you have done with Dr.K.. --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 09:56, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

text: I didn't knew that. Thanks for letting me know. --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 18:45, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you Kostas or letting us know. This account is edit-warring on the Greek wikipedia on exactly the same article, but got also reverted. He is currently blocked on el.wiki. Meanwhile, a Greek editor has already noticed this account's edit-warring here. What a party. Dr. K. 18:57, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It's quite depressing, really. I only got aware of it (and involved in the fringes) recently, but ultra-nationalists and ultra-leftists battle it out like there is no tomorrow, with name-calling and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS mentality in buckets. Constantine   ✍  19:31, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see how a situation like this can arise. It seems that some people cannot learn from history. Dr. K. 20:19, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 14:00, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

text: Thank you for your answer. I would never initiate an edit war because I abide the Rules of WP. So, I 'll follow your suggestion as soon as i can. Cheers Τζερόνυμο (talk) 09:29, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why are you using the formal style of address in the infobox? 

message: I would like to request for comments on whether WikiPedia should address the Patriarch with the formal style of Address. I have to be clear that I do think that addressing the Patriarch (or Priests, Kings, Queens etc) is a crucial information that should be available to the reader, but Wikipedia should never use it when stating something about the Patriarch, so not to indirectly accept that there is validity in his address. Some example: 
#Within the text: "The formal style of address of the Patriarch is "His All Holiness" and ...." - Should be 'accepted
#Within the text:"His All Holiness the Patriarch Bartholomew I was born in ...." should not be accepted
#Within an infobox: "formal style of address: "His All Holiness" -Should be Accepted
#Within an infobox: "His All Holiness Bartholomew I" -Should not be accepted
The reason I suggest that we do not use the formal style of address, is because, using it could suggest that there is validity in "holiness". Giving validity to holiness means we state that holy is real thus God is real. God might be real, but it is not verifiable yet, so we should not imply that he is.
The same reasoning with Patriarch applies to all priest, or God-given Rulers. I am mentioning it here because I jump on this article first. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 09:46, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment: " Wikipedia should never use it when stating something about the Patriarch, so not to indirectly accept that there is validity in his address". I am not sure I understand what you mean by that, or what concrete changes you propose. The article already seems to be in line with your "accepted" versions. More broadly, do you mean to imply that Wikipedia will "endorse" that the patriarch is "holy"? It is simply a mode of address, just like "Majesty", "The Right Honorable", "Excellency", or, for that matter, "Mister" and "Comrade". It is true that such usage in English (and in other languages), is inherited by feudal and earlier practices and hence rather anachronistic, but a) it is in common use, and Wikipedia follows common usage, and b) is not sufficient reason for removal. We are not here to correct the way people talk or think about something, but to report that people do so. I sort of get the point you are trying to make about the uncritical acceptance of religious self-portrayal, but I am not sure this is the correct way to make it. Focusing on such cosmetic issues hardly affects the crux of the matter, and has the feel of symbolic point-scoring. I linked WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS above, and this seems like a textbook case of it. Constantine   ✍  11:18, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

text: Stating obvious facts is not a personal attack. You have been disrupting two wikis with edit-warring and POV-pushing. That's a fact. You got blocked twice on the Greek wiki for edit-warring within two days. That's also a fact. You should be a little more introspective and try to learn from these setbacks instead of accusing editors of non-existent PAs. But do I hold my breath that you will follow my advice? No. Dr. K. 17:18, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for comments on whether WP should apply the formal style of Address when talking about Patriarch 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have undone this edit which falsely claimed the segment was unsourced. Per WP:LEADCITE the lede is a summary of the body of the article, which is where citations belong. I have furnished two extra citations in case there is any question about the material being restored. Elizium23 (talk) 22:53, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Both sources confirm that there is an ecclesiastical schism, however they do not *explicitly* state that the Ecumenical Patriarch isn't considered anymore as the spiritual leader of the Orthodox people. Nowhere in the provided sources point to ecclesiastical schisms as a loss of the status of spiritual leadership. Also none of the sources you gave us, claim that the ecclesiasatical communion and the spiritual leadership do affect each other. Had there been a case of a formal ecclesiastical leadership, however, then sure, it would make sense that it has been affected, but here we are talking about spiritual leadership, not formal ecclesiastical one. Can you provide the necessary quotes backing your claim? I can't find them. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 23:36, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , you are referring to a claim that is not made in the article, so I am not sure what you're on about. Elizium23 (talk) 23:39, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: In your edit here  you claim that 100 million Orthodox people do not consider the Ecumenical Patriarch as a spiritual leader. The provided sources however do not confirm this. Can you provide me the quote in these sources confirming the claim? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 23:43, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , the edit does not claim that. I have made it a separate sentence so it is even more abundantly clear to even our blind readers that that claim is not being made. Elizium23 (talk) 23:45, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: When you place the 100 million followers next to the sentence about 300 million followers viewing him as Spiritual leader, only separated by a (;) then you make a claim as the one acts as a pointer to the other. So I will ask again: what the severing of communion has to do with the 100 million here, and what it has to do with the spiritual leadership at all if the one is unrelated to the other? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 23:48, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

text: I let the info on broken communion stay, but have the figures removed, as the way they stand next to each other still gives the false impression that they may relate to each other. Everyone is welcome to restore the adherent figures if a better rewording is found that avoids linking the two cases with each other. And obviously, the rewording will have to respect what the sources say on the matter. Have Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 00:04, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , the edits are mostly like hitting a fly with a sledgehammer. The awkward positioning of the statement now is logically connected to nothing else in the final paragraph. The omission of the total number of Eastern Orthodox faithful would seem obviated by the moving of the statement, but now the lede paragraph has no sense of scale whatsoever. Elizium23 (talk) 08:52, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The first paragraph introduces the readers to the person, not to his tenure. Frankly, the communion break up, an event that occured during his tenure, doesn't fit at all on the Lead section, hence I avoided adding it myself. But since you insisted in adding it, then its current location (in the tenure paragraph) is the only logical place. We gotta keep the lead organized and tidy as before: the introductory paragraph is about the person, his titles and his role, followed by a paragraph of his early life in a chronological order, and then a paragraph about events marking his tenure as a Patriarch. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 11:20, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , as I was looking more thoroughly in the history log, I found some problems. The user TheGlaswegian whose edits  I reverted partially and then you restored, tried to give disproportionate weight to the event of the schism by mentioning it twice on the Lede (one sentence in 1st paragraph, and another one in 3rd paragraph), and also constituted WP:OR by claiming that the schism affected the Patriarch's spiritual leadership as he didn't provide any sources verifying this. Given this, I will revert further this editor and only keep your own, sourced additions to Lede. Update: edit is done and can be found here:  --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 16:22, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mention of broken communion restored