Talk:Gloria Hemingway

message: This article should be rechecked for correct pronoun usage.  I don't know enough about the individual involved, but of course it is quite innapropriate to refer to a transsexual by their birth pronoun; especially after transition. 68.161.185.76 02:24, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: After transition I agree, but before transition Gregory Hemingway was a well-known public figure and published author who self-identified as a man, so it would be anachronistic and simply inaccurate to say that a woman named Gloria Hemingway published the 1976 book Papa: A Personal Memoir, for example. --Delirium 03:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur. It may be difficult to get this right, but using "he/him/his" throughout the entire article is inappropriate, and the page should also moved to her later name (Gloria Hemingway), since that's who she was. -- Schneelocke 08:26, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I considered that while writing it, but the sources I worked from kept referring to the person using the male pronouns.  I'm fine with it being either way.  violet/riga (t) 08:58, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it works to say "as Gregory, she did whatever". The consensus in the medical profession seems to be that the gender dyshoria is due to the person being the other gender than the one they were identified as at birth. A male-to-female transsexual always was a she anyway, so referring to her as her while she was Gregory would not be inappropriate. I don't think it is overly confusing - it is more confusing to mix pronouns. However, I do feel it is important to make clear who you are talking about in some cases. For example, a sentence read that "Daughter wrote a book about her father" which I changed to "Gloria's daughter wrote a book about her father" as in the first example it could lead to confusion - Gloria being referred to as she and then having the term "father" in there without clarifying might be jarring - people would not automatically be aware that the father referred to was Gloria. Babooshka2002 (talk) 22:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

text: "Under state marriage laws, the validity of a marriage is determined at the time of marriage. If you were legally an 
opposite-sex couple when you married, your marital status cannot be invalidated by subsequent events. For the same 
reason, the federal Defense of Marriage Act does not prohibit federal recognition of married couples in this situation. 
You should be able to file jointly as a married couple, and are not required to count a spouse’s employer-provided 
health benefits as taxable income" http://www.transequality.org/Resources/IRS_Factsheet_2012.pdf 50.8.34.255 (talk) 14:30, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hemingway was mostly presenting as a man to his death. I think that it would be correct to say that gender re-assignment was incomplete at his death. Most of the article refers to him using the male pronoun, but the end reverts to the female. That is surely wrong. It is one or the other.Royalcourtier (talk) 04:50, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough - I have fixed it by removing all pronouns in that paragraph. StAnselm (talk) 06:41, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

text: Hi all, I wrote a thesis on Gregory/Gloria Hemingway and have studied this person extensively. It is inaccurate to portray Gregory only as a transgender woman named Gloria; while she sometimes presented as Gloria (and I do agree she should be referred to as female pronouns when presenting this way), Gregory never retired his male identity. I have come to view Gregory as having a dual gender identity: Gregory was their male identity, and Gloria was their female identity. To place Gregory in either the "male" or "female" camp is to diminish people who have valid, non-binary gender identities and implies that people have to be "one or the other." It is perhaps most accurate to refer to Gregory as bigender. Nonetheless, Gregory died in 2001 well before our modern concept of gender and never publicly came out with any pronoun preferences or gender identity labels beyond "transexual," and was actually embarrassed of public attention that his female identity received. Therefore, I have gone back and change his pronouns to he/him/his, which is what I believe he would want, though I have affirmed the validity of Gregory having a female identity named Gloria and that this wasn't "drag" or "cross-dressing," as some biographers/Hemingway scholars have referred to Greg. Nicholaslord (talk) 23:13, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for complicating this in a useful way. 2601:2C4:C800:6F90:7591:2955:79C9:1783 (talk) 03:25, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronoun usage

message: Please see Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Identity before changing the pronouns in this article. Triona (talk) 05:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronoun usage 

message: I changed she to he because it makes sense...Modernist (talk) 16:42, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: And you explain this how? Hemingway fathered eight children...Modernist (talk) 16:53, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

text: Why not refer to him as male for everything before the surgery and as a female afterwards? Seems to me that you can't make everyone happy with either he or she but this seems to be a logical compromise, otherwise we'll have a non-stop editing war, which wastes everyones time. W4chris (talk) 17:00, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - please make those changes...Modernist (talk) 17:11, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

text: I disagree. The science currently indicates that people like Gloria Hemingway are born with brains not matching their assigned genders. If this is so, then Ms. Hemingway was always female. Just because her body was male is not germane to this conversation. Causes_of_transsexualism  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.51.84.210 (talk) 18:08, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that this is turning a molehill into a mountain. You could argue various points to infinity and still not be any further along than we are right now. My only dog in this fight is the waste of time and resources editing and reverting from male to female to male, etc, etc.  W4chris (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

text: Make the change then...Modernist (talk) 17:50, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Now is not the time to be bold and make such changes; we need to get agreement and consensus from all parties involved to prevent stuff like this happening again. I have notified the IP about this discussion, let's see what they have to say. GiantSnowman 17:52, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay - that's why I opened the thread at ANI although I'd much rather have this discussion here. In my opinion Gregory was a he and then when he/she became Gloria we use her and she...Modernist (talk) 17:56, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, fair enough. Have you posted at any LGBT or related noticeboards/WikiProjects etc. for input? They're probably the best people to explain these kind of matters... GiantSnowman 18:00, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good idea, got a link?..Modernist (talk) 18:02, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Try Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies and/or Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies/Noticeboard. Cheers, GiantSnowman 18:04, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Using the prefered gender reference of any specific community is only going to fire up the other community. How about setteling for a totally gender-neutral tone and using the last name instead (i.e., she attended whatever shool  becomes  Hemingway attended whatever school) W4chris (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I like W4chris's proposal--which should be done across the board anyway. The IPs comments have some validity but not in editorial terms; if the argument is that plumbing determines nothing, then they practically call upon studying the brains of the subject of any biography. Drmies (talk) 18:20, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  As it relates to fathering children, fact is that Hemingway fathered, that is to say, was the supplier of the sperm, rather than mothered, involving one's uterus and cervix. Using any gender neutral tone in this specific instance will cause confusion and cause this issue to fire up again. W4chris (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

text: Request for input here: ...Modernist (talk) 18:19, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: So how do we proceed? I think we should use he and him and then she and her after the change...Modernist (talk) 18:23, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I know this can fast become a hot, emotionally charged topic and, personally, I appreciate the civility of these discussions. I would encourage others to comment but would perfer that we keep this very unemotional as, in my opinion, the issue at hand is really gramatics not a debate on transgender.  Thanks all! W4chris (talk) 18:27, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree that we should keep this as civil as possible; we're simply trying to be as accurate & respectful as possible. Now that it's been suggested above, I'd be happiest with absolutely general-neutral language - use of surname instead of he/she, and use 'had 8 children' (or similar) rather than 'fathered 8 children.' GiantSnowman 18:49, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  hows bout " Hemingway was the biological parent of 8 children."  W4chris (talk) 18:57, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sounds a bit...clinical...but it works, I suppose! GiantSnowman 19:05, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Making any pronoun moves here yet is premature because it's still too tricky - was it his wife or her wife?...Modernist (talk) 19:25, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, nothing wrong with "Hemingway's wife" IMO. GiantSnowman 19:37, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Article looks right now...Modernist (talk) 20:11, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

text: So far you've done a terrific job in a very complicated biography...Modernist (talk) 21:23, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have broken the article down into a few more sections on the basis that the whole thing is a biography so having a "Biography" section is redundant. I also moved the marriage details to later in the article just before the details of his children. Hope I didn't screw up Bmclaughlin9's excellent work on the pronouns. – ukexpat (talk) 13:20, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

text: My advise is for you to trust your judgment; put the chronology right and try to integrate as many headings as you can...Modernist (talk) 17:22, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Him or her, she or he

message: So, why did Time magazine have it in for this guy/gal? I think there's a story in that and it would be good to have this expanded upon. 75.48.8.163 (talk) 22:59, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time 

message: There are several paragraphs which use the last name "Hemingway" alone as an identifier. Since so much of this article is about Gregory's relationship with Ernest, it become very unclear who is the subject and who the object of many sentences. TraceySwans (talk) 19:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear use of last name as identifier 

message: Transgender people have a gender identity or gender expression that differs from their assigned sex. He or She adopted feminine gender expression at sometimes. So I think we should add :Category:Transgender and transsexual people to this article. --Jesamsex (talk) 01:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. -- irn (talk) 04:19, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

text: The problem is that it is not universally recognised. As noted in the article, Time's obituary spoke in these terms, but others did not. StAnselm (talk) 19:23, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categorization 

message: Hi Everyone,
I'm a trans reporter doing a story for Gizmodo about how pronouns get changed on pages like this one and the discussions that go into it. If anyone would like to talk, I'd love to set up an interview. Please reach out to me at henry.giardina@gmail.com for more info, and thanks,
Henry — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hgiardina (talk • contribs) 21:12, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Journalism in 2020  

message: I would like to know if anyone has thoughts on an essay for this article titled Wikipedia:Gregory or Gloria Hemingway. The essay should talk about why this article is titled Gregory Hemingway and not Gloria Hemingway despite apparently violating Wikipedia:Gender identity. Any thoughts?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It's probably a little pointy. There was a move discussion in 2015. It might be better to try another or an RfC. Victoria (tk) 21:04, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

text: I think you mean MOS:GENDERID, since Wikipedia:Gender identity is another essay. StAnselm (talk) 15:30, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: That essay says we treat transgender people by their identified gender. But I'm talking about an essay on why this is an purposely an exception. Georgia guy (talk) 16:02, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography explicitly states that "occasional exceptions may apply". On the other hand, if you look at the arguments on this talk page, many editors argued that it wasn't going against the guidelines in the first place. StAnselm (talk) 16:06, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Essay 

message: It's absolutely absurd that after 15 years of discussion, Gloria Hemingway has not had her name & pronouns updated on this page despite violating Wikipedia's policy on Gender Identity. Absolutely ridiculous.
Logan Sheppard (talk) 14:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but you actually have to get consensus for that change here on the talk page. StAnselm (talk) 15:22, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It violates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gender_identity, & thus it must be corrected. Logan Sheppard (talk) 16:27, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop your edit warring. In fact, the page you link to is an essay. StAnselm (talk) 17:02, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I got the wrong page. Here is the right one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Gender_identity Logan Sheppard (talk) 17:09, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, said MOS section was linked in the essay. Quit being obtuse. Logan Sheppard (talk) 17:13, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Are we going to have this 'discussion', then? Or are you going to continue stonewalling me? Logan Sheppard (talk) 16:09, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronouns & Name 

message: The many page moves are annoying and clogging up the watchlist. Looking at the logs, the page was moved to Gloria Hemingway in 2007. I've had this page on watch since 2010. Looking at the article at the end of that year it looked like this. According to the Gloria Hemingway logs the page was moved back to Gregory in 2012. Now there's edit warring which needs to stop and there should be a Wikipedia:Requested moves with a discussion to gain consensus. Then there should be an RfC regarding the pronouns to gain consensus. In the meantime, it's nice to see all the work that's happened here. Victoria (tk) 21:04, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: What consensus is there to gain? At the moment, this article violates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Gender_identity, & must be corrected. I'm being stonewalled by StAnselm in particular, & considering their redirect of 'birthing parent' to 'mother', I think their reluctance may in fact be tied to bad-faith editing. Logan Sheppard (talk) 16:06, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Page moves

message: User:Sceptre closed the RM with the result being move, but it wasn't moved. Georgia guy (talk) 19:36, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: And I cannot move the page myself. Somebody please fix the mistake. Georgia guy (talk) 19:45, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It's move-protected, so I can't do it myself because I'm not an admin (that non-admin page movers can't move move-protected pages is a pain, especially given the amount RMs that are closed by us). I've listed it at WP:RMTM. Sceptre (talk) 20:02, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Please be patient.  The discussion has closed with the rationale laid out. Sometimes a few extra steps are necessary. -2pou (talk) 22:05, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was this page moved?? 

message: To note that The Atlantic has a January 2023 article about this talk page at https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2023/01/wikipedia-gender-identity-pronouns-guidelines/672806 which may drive traffic 2A00:23C6:148A:9B01:D31:4F58:1E99:70A (talk) 14:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Atlantic article