Talk:2006 Lebanon War/Archive 18

message: We should stop doing this in that way. There was a majority for renaming to war. Therefore we should brainstorm possible new names for this article. Requesting several moves won't lead to anything. Also it's actually not very helpful to change an already posted request during voting (requested move I). So far the following names have emerged during the discussion:
*2006 Israel-Hezbollah Conflict (originally this requested to move to: "2006 Israel-Hezbollah-Lebanon" → as this makes no sense, I posted the second request.)
*2006 Israel-Hezbollah War in Lebanon
*2006  Israel-Lebanon War
*2006 Israel-Hezbollah War
--Attraho 17:48, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Renaming: This is getting ridiculous

message: These polls will close at 12noon on the 11th of August, UTC.
: Comment: Whatever the outcome will be, please notice the important difference I have outlined in Why we shouldn't call it war - yet below, between using a descriptive title and giving the conflict a name (i.e. the issue of lowercase versus uppercase). Thanks Thomas Blomberg 13:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Let's refers to the news agencies: Associated Press, Reuters and AFP: **Israel seen favorable to UN draft on Lebanon war (Reuters) (Sun Aug 6, 10:42 AM ET); **BEIRUT (AFP) - Israeli combat jets struck villages across south Lebanon...the 26-day war (AFP Sun Aug 6, 5:40 AM ET); **Analysis: Lebanon war hurting U.S. goals (AP Sat Aug 5, 8:56 PM ET)
Tazmaniacs 03:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Correct, apart of the Hizbollah question (and making it a simple proxy of Iran is just too simple, as is the vision of Lebanon which forgets that this country's just got out of a civil war and is built on a consensus between various communities; Hizbollah recently allied with Michel Aoun, something which those who only want to make it pass as a proxy of Iran forget...) But despite this "little point", medias, governments, everybody call it a war. It is pointless to continue using weasel words. Tazmaniacs 15:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Renaming Polls

message: Voting for the header above
*Oppose (State your reasons for opposing the renaming of this article.  Sign your entry.)
#Oppose - I support Israel-Lebanon War. --Iorek85 05:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move I: 2006 Israel-Hezbollah Conflict

message: *Oppose (State your reasons for opposing the renaming of this article as a war.  Sign your entry.)
**I feel strongly that it would be much more productive to hold separate votes on the characterisation ("war" vs "conflict") and the participants (i.e. Hezbollah and/or Lebanon). TewfikTalk 07:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move III: 2006  Israel-Lebanon War 

message: *Mainstream media call it a war
*The latest poll gave a majority for renaming to war
*The war is also taking place in Israel
*Oppose (State your reasons for opposing the renaming of this article as a war.  Sign your entry.)
#Oppose Combatants are indeed IDF and Hezbollah but the victims are the Lebanese people, I think that should reflect in the title.--Sloane 14:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Let's refers to the news agencies: Associated Press, Reuters and AFP: **Israel seen favorable to UN draft on Lebanon war (Reuters) (Sun Aug 6, 10:42 AM ET); **BEIRUT (AFP) - Israeli combat jets struck villages across south Lebanon...the 26-day war (AFP Sun Aug 6, 5:40 AM ET); **Analysis: Lebanon war hurting U.S. goals (AP Sat Aug 5, 8:56 PM ET)
Tazmaniacs 03:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Correct, apart of the Hizbollah question (and making it a simple proxy of Iran is just too simple, as is the vision of Lebanon which forgets that this country's just got out of a civil war and is built on a consensus between various communities; Hizbollah recently allied with Michel Aoun, something which those who only want to make it pass as a proxy of Iran forget...) But despite this "little point", medias, governments, everybody call it a war. It is pointless to continue using weasel words. Tazmaniacs 15:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move IV: 2006 Israel-Hezbollah War 

message: Tewfik is right, we are being completely unproductive. We have to devide this into too main branches one on "War v Conflict" and another on "Israel-Hezbollah v Israel-Lebanon v Israel-Leabonon-Hezbollah".
We are making asses out of ourselves by this childish display of pseudodemocratic anarchy, IMHO :D
--Cerejota 02:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Let's refers to the news agencies: Associated Press, Reuters and AFP: **Israel seen favorable to UN draft on Lebanon war (Reuters) (Sun Aug 6, 10:42 AM ET); **BEIRUT (AFP) - Israeli combat jets struck villages across south Lebanon...the 26-day war (AFP Sun Aug 6, 5:40 AM ET); **Analysis: Lebanon war hurting U.S. goals (AP Sat Aug 5, 8:56 PM ET)
Tazmaniacs 03:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Correct, apart of the Hizbollah question (and making it a simple proxy of Iran is just too simple, as is the vision of Lebanon which forgets that this country's just got out of a civil war and is built on a consensus between various communities; Hizbollah recently allied with Michel Aoun, something which those who only want to make it pass as a proxy of Iran forget...) But despite this "little point", medias, governments, everybody call it a war. It is pointless to continue using weasel words. Tazmaniacs 15:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lets get organized 

message: *Time, July 17, 2006
*=Israel seen favorable to UN draft on Lebanon war (Reuters) (Sun Aug 6, 10:42 AM ET); 
*BEIRUT (AFP) - Israeli combat jets struck villages across south Lebanon...the 26-day war (AFP Sun Aug 6, 5:40 AM ET); 
*Analysis: Lebanon war hurting U.S. goals (AP Sat Aug 5, 8:56 PM ET)
*Peretz sued for war crimes, Daily Telegraph August 2, 2006
*Moroccan Jews ask court to try Amir Peretz for war crimes, Haaretz, August 3, 2006
*Peretz: We’re at war, we must win, Ynet News, July 27, 2006
*      Peretz: the peacenik who led Israel to war, Reuters, August 3, 2006
*CNN: "In Olmert's Monday speech, he said Hezbollah has suffered a "heavy blow" in the fighting. Israeli troops and airstrikes have inflicted serious damage to Hezbollah's capacity to launch rockets into Israel, and its supply routes from Syria have been hampered, he said. "We will stop the war when the [rocket] threat is removed ..., our captive soldiers return home in peace, and you are able to live in safety and security." ( Israel OKs expansion of Lebanon campaign. Tazmaniacs 16:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources using the term "war" 

message: === Israeli casualties ===
* There is an official daily-upated governmental source , but it has one mistake. "Since July 12, 39 Israeli civilians and 63 IDF soldiers have been killed." If you DO REALLY COUNT the names of the IDF soldiers, you get 64 instead of 63. I alteady sent a feedback abount this mistake.
*There is another israeli source, but it is on russian . And it also has a problem, 'cause the link is dying every day. Instead of http://www.newsru.co.il/israel/08aug2006/shem.html, tomorow you'll have to look on http://www.newsru.co.il/israel/09aug2006/shem.html, and so on. 89.1.254.24 19:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Strangely Tewfik, you seemed to agree at one point that the range 400-800 had to be given, but the box now is 500, while Lebanon say 1000. Range should be 500-1000. Do not minimize losses from one side or another. Thanks. Best regards, Tazmaniacs 07:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Tewfik, I'm sure you realize why you can't continue saying "we decided". Wikipedia:No binding decisions. Who is this "we"? Not everybody. Yes, we should include the Lebanese claim that 1 000 civilians were killed including 1/3 children, it has been reported by Reuters & others news agencies. This is simple respect of reality. Tazmaniacs 07:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion about casualties

message: * There is an official daily-upated governmental source , but it has one mistake. "Since July 12, 39 Israeli civilians and 63 IDF soldiers have been killed." If you DO REALLY COUNT the names of the IDF soldiers, you get 64 instead of 63. I alteady sent a feedback abount this mistake.
*There is another israeli source, but it is on russian . And it also has a problem, 'cause the link is dying every day. Instead of http://www.newsru.co.il/israel/08aug2006/shem.html, tomorow you'll have to look on http://www.newsru.co.il/israel/09aug2006/shem.html, and so on. 89.1.254.24 19:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israeli casualties 

message: Tewfik, I'm sorry, but if Lebanon claims 1 000 dead including 1/3 children, then the box can't just say 500 dead and bypass that. Tazmaniacs 07:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Strangely Tewfik, you seemed to agree at one point that the range 400-800 had to be given, but the box now is 500, while Lebanon say 1000. Range should be 500-1000. Do not minimize losses from one side or another. Thanks. Best regards, Tazmaniacs 07:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Tewfik, I'm sure you realize why you can't continue saying "we decided". Wikipedia:No binding decisions. Who is this "we"? Not everybody. Yes, we should include the Lebanese claim that 1 000 civilians were killed including 1/3 children, it has been reported by Reuters & others news agencies. This is simple respect of reality. Tazmaniacs 07:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1 000 killed according to Lebanon 

message: the original beginning is like this, 
According to Haaretz at 9:05 AM local time on 12 July 2006, Hezbollah initiated a rocket and mortar attack on Israeli military positions and on the towns of Even Menahem and Mattat, injuring 5 civilians[18]. 
it has a defective citing and also I think using the Haaretz alone cannot be considered npov (it probably just cite idf sources). same can be said of using lebanon newspapers/al manar. 
I change it to npov vesion. 
--Stephenzhu 16:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Haaretz is not like al-Manar. But nevermind, not Haaretz alone is used, several prominent sources are also mentioned. Al-Jazeerah also calls it cross-border here. --Yms 16:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I am only saying it seems that both Israeli/Lebanese sources are suspect as wiki sources. Also, I am aware of prominent sources calling it cross-border but it doesn't mean the notation is not in dispute. -Stephenzhu 16:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Journalists determine what is WP:Verifiable, and us based on their reliability. Those are the principles at play here.  Cheers, TewfikTalk 19:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  beginning of conflict 

message: Eye-wittnesses have said that it looked like some boored out IAF crew having a local competition between themselves? MX44 10:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why was the lighthouse in Beirut eradicated? 

message: Another intresting article. this information needs to be added to ensure NPOV. It echoes Galloways information. --Striver 08:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ehh .. Would you care to quote what is missing? MX44 09:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article

message: We have 2 edition for some part of lead:
:1- On 12 July 2006 Hezbollah initiated Operation Truthful Promise, consisting of a alleged cross-border raid resulting in the capture of two soldiers and shelling into Israel as a diversionary tactic. Israel then responded with Operation Just Reward, later renamed Operation Change of Direction. Israel's strike has included massive bombing raids by the Israeli Air Force (IAF), an air and Israeli Sea Corps naval blockade of Lebanon (especially southern Lebanon and Beirut), a force of tanks and armored personnel carriers, and some small raids into southern Lebanon by IDF ground troops. Meanwhile, Hezbollah has engaged in artillery rocket bombardment of Israel's northern cities and towns, including Haifa. 
:2- Triggered by a cross-border Hezbollah raid and shelling across the Blue Line into Israel, which resulted in the capture of two and killing of three Israeli soldiers, Israel retaliated with an air and naval blockade of Lebanon, massive airstrikes across the whole country, and ground incursions into southern Lebanon . Hezbollah in turn immediately responded with large-scale rocket attacks into Northern Israel . 
 
I think the first one is more suitable.--Accessible 14:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The first one is more suitable, but the word "alleged" sounds like it is not proven yet. It is proven.... 89.0.219.66 15:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The important difference is that the first version is a mile long. We need to keep this already long article down by not including rather irrelevant details in the intro that are repeated further down anyway, like the names of the various operations and different branches of the IDF. The fact that some Lebanese policemen initially claimed that the Israeli soldiers were taken on the Lebanese side is also something explained further down. As that claim is not supported by the Hezbollah announcements or by the Lebanese government (and they would repeat it over and over again if they felt that the claim was valid), indicates that we do not need to write "alleged" in the intro. Thomas Blomberg 17:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the second one is suitable for "Begining of the conflict" not "Lead".--212.6.32.3 07:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't understand. Everytime I check the lead there is written a new thing. But nobody participate in this debate. If the talk page is a joke, Please tell me too.--Accessible 09:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The name of the Operations is not the most interesting, and, at any cases, they is no reason to put them in bold. These are military details, which is not like the 1000 dead (which concerns civilians). Tazmaniacs 14:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: suitable lead

message: This part is removed frequently.:
:On 25 July Nasrallah has announced the launch of the "second phase of our struggle" in which his long-range rockets would "go beyond Haifa," Israel's third-largest city. Israeli officials have been bracing for possible rocket attacks on Tel Aviv. "Israeli strikes may boost Hizbullah base", Christian Science Monitor, 28 July 2006 On 29 July in a televised address to the Lebanese nation Nasrallah said:"I tell the Lebanese that no one among you should be afraid of the victory of the resistance.. I assert that the victory will be for all of Lebanon, for every Arab, Muslim and honorable Christian, who stood with Lebanon and defended it." 
:30 July reportedly saw 140-146 rockets fired from Hezbollah positions into Israel- the most fired on a single day since IDF Operation Change Direction began. On 2 August rockets also landed near the town of Beit Shean, about 70 kilometres (43 miles) from the border. Reports of rocket attacks reached 300 striking 15 targets inside Israel despite the IDF's claim that the three-week offensive in Lebanon had eroded Hezbollah's firepower.  
I think the reason should be written.--Accessible 09:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing Nasrallah quotation and Hezbollah actions

message: Where should it be mentioned that the Israel's Security Cabinet approved the widing of the war? Israel Security Council OKs Wider Ground Offensive in Lebanon  Red1530 13:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Widing of the War 

message: This belongs in Roles of non-combatant State and non-State actors in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict where you will find corroborating evidence on NSA sharing SIGINT with the IDF- check the Salon.com article cited there 82.29.227.171 16:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Karen Kwiatkowski