Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Schools/Archive 7

message: Hi folks!
Since early 2006, I've been running automated searches for common spelling and punctuation errors and fixing them using AutoWikiBrowser. Usually, at least 10% of all Wikipedia  articles that need corrections come from the Pokemon WikiProject. They appear to have cleaned up their project a great deal, and now the majority of articles I find which need fixed are articles on high schools. In fact, it looks like more than 10% of all Wikipedia articles that need grammar adjustments come from the schools project. I usually check for combinations of words like "to it's" (which means "to it is"), "of it's" (which means "of it is"), etc. Either some major contributor on this WikiProject isn't aware that it's isn't possessive, or there are many individuals who aren't aware.
I realize that there are thousands of school pages to watch and fix, but these spelling/punctuation errors have been around long enough that they are showing up on Google searches, detracting from the overall quality of the encyclopedia. Anything you can do to improve these articles to an academic standard is greatly appreciated. Best wishes, Firsfron of Ronchester 23:34, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This project deals mostly with maintaining and improving such articles, most of them are written by students, alumni, or faculty of the schools themselves not by us. I assure you that this project does not have any grudge with the english language and whenever possible corrects these problems. As far as fixing them en masse, Isn't that the entire point of such a bot? Adam McCormick 04:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your comments, Adam. A bot can fix common spelling errors, but it takes a human to recognize when it's is meant and when its is meant. So while I can use the program to collect the lists of pages, and semi-automate the process, I have to do all the actual typing. Wikipedia has almost two million articles, and if 10% of all articles with these errors come from high school articles, then it is a huge problem. I realize the strain you all must be under just to maintain all these articles, but anything that can be done to help improve their quality would be cool, and there must be many more of you all than there is of me. ;) Best wishes, Firsfron of Ronchester 05:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are currently 7924 school articles under WikiProject Schools with a large amount of them not often looked at by editors - so it's understandable that you find a lot of spelling errors in them. I can happily say I know the difference between there, their, they're and two, to and too and its and it's. I often go through articles to look for spelling errors and sections not following WP:Style; though I often don't notice some things. We can try in a friendly way to teach school article editors what these words mean - as it is very common for people not to know. Camaron1 | Chris 10:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps we could modify the AfD process so nominators have to clean up spelling and grammar errors before proposing deletion?  That way the opponents could all concentrate on how worthless school articles are in general, without getting bogged down in typos and such.--Hjal 22:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Firsfron, where could we find a list of the articles (schools specifically if possible) that you've found? Adam McCormick 22:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't really made lists, though they can easily be made. AutoWikiBrowser has this cool function where lists of articles meeting the search criteria can be saved to Notepad. From there, they can be copied and pasted into any subpage. But it's just faster to correct them through AWB. One problem, though, is that AWB stops after collecting 1,000 pages which contain the search term. I rarely find less than a thousand pages with "to it's", "on it's", "by it's", etc., errors. I'm pretty certain I've corrected more than 10,000 articles. Within school articles, articles on Australian schools and Texas schools seem to be the most commonly misspelled and mispunctuated. Firsfron of Ronchester 07:41, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

text: It is an important issue. But there are a number of competing objectives. If we are to get more non English schools and we are to increase our rate then quality.... may not rise. What we can do, in schools assessment, is to mention this as an issue when going from stub to start. There are few ideal editors and sometimes one "creative" will make good progress if watched over by "text police" <-- short hand ... no insult intended. We obviously cannot teach grammar and spelling and this should not be a barrier to contributing. I suspect that the top thousand schools are much better then they were a year ago and the bottom thousand are "abowte the same. Victuallers 09:00, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Could we perhaps provide some links on the Schools Project page to the various bots for correcting common mis-spellings so that school editors can use them if they feel so inclined? I've never tried to use any of these bots and I've no idea how they work. From the school articles I've seen spelling is in fact far less of an issue than lack of content. There seem to be thousands of stub articles which barely merit a Wikipedia page. Dahliarose 09:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: AutoWikiBrowser is really just a semi-automated bot. You can use it to gather lists (such as all articles within a category, or all articles containing a specific spelling error). It will automatically fix most Manual of Style issues, but it can't correct grammar by itself. The editor using AWB has to make the actual grammar corrections, and it does get a bit monotonous after the first few hundred corrections. I also recommend a high-speed connection when using it, since no one wants to wait for hundreds of pages to load. Anyone on the approved list can use it, and it is not at all difficult to use. There are automated grammar-bots, but they cannot tell when 'too/two/to' or 'its/it's'-type mistakes are made. Firsfron of Ronchester 17:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar clean-up 

message: The "what not to include" section says not to list telephone numbers. Why then does the GB school infobox have a telephone (and fax) number box then? Tartan 23:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The infoboxes are completely unstandardized, you could remove the field if you'd like. There is active debate about including phone numbers on wikipedia, but it's best to err on the side of not including one. Adam McCormick 00:00, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just for information the UK are currently working to standardise the UK school articles and  is the template that has been agreed for use, fields from the other templates have recently been added. The other templates will be deprecated at some point but that all takes time. Suggest you bring up any proposed change on the template talk page. Keith D 08:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've left a note on the GB template page to suggest that the telephone and fax numbers should be removed. I can't see any reason for including these details in an infobox, let alone in the content of a school article. Telephone numbers are constantly changing and are therefore difficult to keep up to date. In any case, the information will easily be found on the school's own website which will have a direct link from within the infobox. I'm sure I've come across a few American infoboxes which have telephone numbers included, though I can't now remember where I found them. Dahliarose 10:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree that things like telephone numbers, fax numbers and e-mail addresses are not needed in school articles - I have made this clear on the project page. However the schools address, schools website link and head teacher I would considerer fine. Camaron1 | Chris 11:25, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The GB infobox template has now been changed by consensus to remove the telephone and fax numbers. UK numbers have changed many times in the last ten or twenty years, as have all the dialing codes. My understanding is that the CD version is only going to contain a small selection of Wikipedia articles and I would have thought that only the most well known and prestigious schools would be included (presumably our top and high importance schools), if any. The argument about the inclusion of telephone numbers for obscure elementary schools is therefore irrelevant. In any case the CD version hasn't yet been released.  How do people in America without internet access currently find telephone numbers? Don't you have such a thing as old-fashioned paper telephone directories? Dahliarose 17:04, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, paper directories are used, but my local directory doesn't have numbers for a school across the country or world from me. But the CD wouldn't include them anyway so the point is moot. Adam McCormick 18:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

text: So, are we going to have different infobox templates for "prestigious schools" and "obscure elementary schools"?  That would be charming.  In the U.S., calling long-distance information to get a phone number in another service area costs on the order of $1.00 where I live, so having the number avaibale for free is convenient, if, say, I wanted to call University High School in L.A. to verify the Jan and Dean story or find obscure (but verifiable) source of information about other notable grads and such.  I could, of course, look up the number at the school's own website, as long as some other small group of editors doesn't decide to delete that portion of the infobox next month.  I could find the number through Google, but I could find almost everything in the article on Google--why don't we save a bunch of bandwidth and only include material that isn't available online at all?  More seriously, even though WP is not a directory, putting minimal contact information in the infobox seems pretty encyclopedic to me, at least for this kind of encyclopedia.  One last point--many people trying to find my old high school's number by going to their website are going to have to sit for a full minute or more while the home page loads, thanks to some annoying graphics overload they have come up with to feature student art.  I'm using IE6 on a nine-year-old Pentium, but I am on cable.  How's a potential exchange student with a dialup connection at a pay-per-minute internet cafe in Chad going to deal with crap like that?--Hjal 04:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought there was a move to standardise the infoboxes as much as possible and certainly within countries. I've no idea what the current situation is with American school infoboxes. Presumably the question of telephone numbers will be discussed on the appropriate template pages, and telephone numbers could be included if there was a consensus among US editors. There seem to be numerous online telephone directories for America. Surely anyone with internet access who wants to find a school telephone number would look first in one of the numerous online telephone directories such as White Pages rather than looking at Wikipedia. The online directories are all completely free of charge from anywhere in the world, even in Chad, and telephone numbers are provided in a matter of seconds. Dahliarose 09:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text:  If you want to argue the point, this is hardly the forum. Wikipedia is not a directory is being applied this way accross wikipedia. If you want to argue the point I'm sure there's a villiage pump who would love to debate the topic. Adam McCormick 17:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Question on telephone numbers

message: (See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Schools/Archive 5#Merging UK Schools Infoboxes)
It's been about a month since this was suggested, and notices have been on the talk pages of the infoboxes in question all that time.  There don't seem to be any objections, so shall I make it happen?  The only information field that would be lost would be "Old pupils known as" from Infobox English Public School, but I'm not sure its important enough to be included in the first place.  (chgallen 16:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd have thought "Former pupils known as" might be worth including as other non-public schools have such associations. As for the title, are schools in Northern Ireland excluded? (GB excludes NI; UK includes NI.) Otherwise, let the deprecation proceed.-- roundhouse0 16:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Honestly, I have no idea how Northern Irish schools are organised.  If they can use the GB template, then it should probably renamed to be more inclusive.  At the moment, "Template:Infobox UK school" is taken - I think we'd have to deprecate it and move the schools that use it to GB, before we could rename the GB template.  If any of that made sense.  (chgallen 19:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that does indeed all make sense. -- roundhouse0 20:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, I've gone ahead and done it.  I'll begin to move some of the schools using the other templates over to GB. (chgallen 17:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't aware of this suggestion until today and would need to object to it, unless the merged infobox can give just as good results as Infobox English Public School, which may or may not be possible? I haven't found a way to use this infobox and leave out certain fields? For instance, independent schools do not have an LEA or an OFSTED number, both of which are included in Template:Infobox GB school, as they have no relationship with either. The free labels are always useful, of course. We certainly need the "Old pupils known as", but that can be put into a free label, so long as there are enough of them.  Xn4 18:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If leaving out certain parameters is your only concern, it can easily be righted assuming there is some consensus to do it. This  isn't a good reason not to merge the template however. Adam McCormick 18:24, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: For Template:Infobox GB school, the only required fields are name and country.  The template dynamically adapts to fit with whatever combination of data is entered - i.e. when parameters aren't used, it either omits them completely (e.g. LEA for independents, Religious affiliation for secular institutions) or else adapts itself (e.g.  defaults to Headteacher when unspecified, " to " changed to just "+" when no upper age limit is specified.).  That sort of thing.  The infobox has been worded to try and be as inclusive as possible, thereby removing the previous need for numerous specialised infobox (due to the large variety of British schools) and giving UK school articles a bit of uniformity.  So I think that the new infobox will give just as good results, if not (hopefully) better.  Hope that answers your queries.  There's quite good documentation with Template:Infobox GB school (if I do say so myself) which should answer most questions regarding its usage.  (chgallen 18:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Okay, chgallen, I have just tried an experiment with all fields left blank and none of them is defaulting to something I don't want. I'll look into this some more, if I may, and perhaps it will be all right, so long as there are enough free labels - three isn't enough, could it be six, please? Xn4 18:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course - feel free to experiment as much as possible.  It'd be very useful to get some outside feedback.  As for the free labels, I'm not really sure about that one.  Three seems to be the norm (e.g. Template:Infobox School, Template:Infobox School3, Template:Infobox Secondary school).  If schools are using more than three free fields, that suggests that the template is inadequate and should be expanded.  Aside from "Former Pupils Known As" (which is useful, but only for a small number of schools) what other fields do you think Template:Infobox GB school lacks?  Adding more free fields would just be a quick fix.  (chgallen 11:44, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved all the schools and colleges from Template:Infobox College GB and Template:Infobox English Public School onto the GB School template and will continue with the merging over the coming week. Should these templates now be marked up for deletion? Thanks. CR7 22:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Just finished moving the schools across from Template:Infobox UK schools onto the GB School template. Anybody know about whether the depreciated ones should be deleted? Thanks, CR7 17:35, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Just thought I should announce it here:
Template:Infobox UK schools, Template:Infobox UK school, Template:Infobox College GB and Template:Infobox English Public School have been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the templates' entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. CR7 18:54, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Well done -- that's some very good work there.  Have a barnstar for your trouble!  chgallen 12:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  UK Infobox merger 

message: All, I'm trying to get a bot for tagging articles which need infoboxes and there has been a request for input from this project on what constitutes an infobox. Currently, the bot does not recognize certain templates after they have been subst'd and while I can't see any way around this it has been raised as an issue. Please weigh in at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/BoxCrawler#Test_run_review. Thanks very much! Adam McCormick 23:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bot has been approved-ish and will run through all 8000+ articles tinight and into tomorrow. I'll let everyone know in the morning when it's finished. Adam McCormick 14:56, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Several articles have been listed as needing an infobox, but are not school articles; for example [First School]]. Is it intended that some form of infobox be created to cover all such articles, or can this parameter now be reset to 'no' following the bot's attendance? Tafkam 12:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For the very few articles that do not need infoboxes (and do need ratings) the text "" can be added to prevent reclassification as needing an infobox. This should not be done on any articles that might actually need an infobox. The bot can and will be run again, so it is important that this maintanance is done. Adam McCormick 23:29, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Getting bot approved 

message: I would like to request comments on Network of Sacred Heart Schools, specifically concerning the fact that it does very little to describe the Network and that it has become a rather bloated list. I am requesting assistance here because of the inclusion of this project's template on talk:Network of Sacred Heart Schools.
I have also made some comments on that talk page.   Thanks! —Travistalk 16:09, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Network of Sacred Heart Schools 

message: Would maps showing the location of schools or school districts make a good addition to article pages?  I was inspired by some comments from a peer review along the lines of "What information would be wanted by someone who doesn't know anything yet about your school/district?" It seems like a semi-obvious addition, but I never thought of it before today and don't recall seeing it on any Wikiproject Schools articles.  I made a change to Template:Infobox School District that allows maps to be added; you can see it in action at Hurst-Euless-Bedford Independent School District.  It probably needs tweaking, but it shows the basic idea I'm thinking about.  The only counterpoint I can think of is that maps are also available by following a Wikilink to an article about the city in which the school/district is located (those same maps could probably be reused in most cases, as I've done at the HEBISD page). --Hebisddave 19:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having looked at vast number of city articles in the last few days I know that they make a vital addition, but I'm not sure whether it would be practical to make maps to schools and it seems like there might be issues with the whole "Wikipedia is not a directory" thing Adam McCormick 20:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done like Hurst-Euless-Bedford Independent School District I don't think it would be a problem and it makes the location easier to comprehend. Adam McCormick 20:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maps? 

message: :I see CR7 has added a lot of red links to the Norfolk Schools template, which I created. No doubt it took quite a bit of time and effort.
:I said above "I don't see any point in including redlinks to non-existent articles, as these templates are essentially navigational aids and not lists of schools", after Dahliarose had commented "Some counties allow red links and others don't."
:It would be better, perhaps, to have a consistent approach. What views do other editors have on red links in navigational templates, please? Xn4 18:16, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to put forward my apologies if it's a mistake, it appeared that some templates I'd been converting to the 'navbox generic' template had red links and others didn't. Until I read above I was unaware that there was a discussion going on as to which template to use so I've used the 'navbox generic' as a standard for most of the templates. When I got to the Norfolk template I decided to add the missing links because it stated 'None on Wikipedia' under the special schools section. Once again, I'd like to apologise for the mistakes I've made. CR7 18:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that redlinks (If they follow WP:NC(S)) help make sure that articles are correctly placed. That said, I think if the county template included a link to a list of schools in the county, then it wouldn't be necessary to place redlinks in the template. Adam McCormick 18:47, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are lists of schools in counties but when an article name gets updated they are often left with the old page name on. They can be difficult to find too. The red link names that clashed did follow WP:NC(S). It's my opinion that red links help to encourage new articles, even if they are only stubs.CR7 18:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Red links in and of themselves are not always bad.  With schools, they should only be used when the school is notable and likely to get an article.  Adding red links for other schools is an invitation to another AfD debate.  As to the template in question, these should be written to not break the school names on multiple lines.  Vegaswikian 20:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps adding red links for notable schools only is a fair compromise - it might have the advantage of bringing forward stubs for the missing articles. But I can't help thinking it would be an invidious or even a hopeless task to decide in advance, on a job lot basis, which schools are notable and which aren't. That leaves me, on balance, preferring to make red links the exception rather than the rule. Xn4 22:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Redlinks

message: Should alumni have references stating that they (the person) attended the school? Twenty Years 05:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If they have an article about them, which gives referenced information about their school career, then I'd have thought not.  If they don't have an article, then they must be referenced.  It's a bummer, but Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons says you shouldn't really say anything about anybody living, without referencing it.  I'm not entirely sure about dead people though.  (chgallen 09:42, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree chgallen here in that they need to be referenced somewhere. I would add though that the school's website, while a useless reference for most things (WP:COI, etc...) would be a good reference for whether the alumni attended, though not whether the alumni are notable which is another debate entirely. Adam McCormick 14:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I found Why sources should be cited helpful. In practice, very few wikibiographies so far seem to have a specific citation to verify the subject's education. I've just referenced the list of Old Derbeians and made a start on the longer list of Old Greshamians. I think it's a useful exercise? Xn4 12:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alumni