Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility

message: I recognize that there are many articles on the English Wikipedia that are arguably under the scope of WP:NCROY. To avoid overwhelming readers of this discussion, I ask that as a community, we focus our attention on the article titles that I have explicitly listed in this section. Hurricane Andrew (444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The Norwegian monarchs pages no longer have "Of Norway" in their article titles. 2601:249:9301:D570:DCE:DB6E:BCC:F04D (talk) 05:00, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for pointing this out. I have modified the Norwegian monarchs' table accordingly. Hurricane Andrew (444) 21:15, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Article titles that APT would like the community to focus on

message: I am aware that WP:MORATORIUMs are counter to some general Wikipedia practices. However, in the past year alone (i.e. since November 1, 2022), at least six different RMs have been initiated to change titles for British sovereigns in particular:
 RMs for British monarchs
Article where RM was initiated	Start date of discussion          	End date of discussion
Queen Victoria                	November 29, 2022                 	December 6, 2022
Charles III                   	July 23, 2023                     	July 31, 2023
Elizabeth II                  	July 30, 2023 (that APT initiated)	August 4, 2023
George I of Great Britain     	July 30, 2023                     	August 15, 2023
Elizabeth II                  	August 14, 2023                   	August 14, 2023
William IV                    	September 14, 2023                	September 22, 2023
It should be noted that the simultaneous discussion of the Charles III, Elizabeth II, and George I RMs in July 2023 caused a user to raise a complaint at WP:ANI about the appropriateness of such discussions occurring. This complaint was redirected to the talk page of WP:RM, where it was concluded that the simultaneous discussions could proceed.
Evidently, the quantity of RM discussions in the realm of British monarch’s title has caused frustration and exhaustion among Wikipedia users. Consequently, I believe that as a community, we need to take a break from arguing over what the best title may be for not just British sovereigns, but all European sovereigns. A moratorium that lasts up to a year after the closing of this RfC therefore seems prudent. Hurricane Andrew (444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Option 1 context: [[WP:RM]]s for articles on British monarchs have been frequent

message: As of the start of this RfC, Guideline III of the Sovereigns section of WP:NCROY stated the following (Bolded emphasis mine):
Moreover, Guideline V of the Sovereigns sections of WP:NCROY stated (Bolded emphasis mine):
However, these blanket guidelines do not account for where multiple sovereigns’ titles are currently located. This is clearly illustrated in the list below:
#Juliana of the Netherlands is the only queen named Juliana to have an English Wikipedia page, but her article title uses the  format regardless.
#No other person named Christian X other than Christian X of Denmark has an article of English Wikipedia article. However, the Danish monarch’s page still uses the  format.
#The only person named Anton Florian with a Wikipedia page is Anton Florian, Prince of Liechtenstein. Nevertheless, the sovereign prince’s article title still follows the  template.
From the above evidence, it can be seen that there is greater nuance to how European monarchs are titled on Wikipedia beyond whether or not they are the only sovereign with their regnal name. Work needs to be done to either amend WP:NCROY accordingly or move a number of article titles to adhere to the current guidelines of WP:NCROY. Hurricane Andrew (444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Option 2 context: There is a disconnect between the letter of WP:NCROY and current practice

message: WP:RS states the following:
Based on the following evidence in this section, an additional justification for using the "{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}" format for article titles on European sovereigns emerges:
#For example, when completing a search for “Wilhelmina of the Netherlands” on JSTOR (a digital library of academic journals and books), one sees that 24 primary sources and 122 secondary sources use this designation for the Netherlands’s queen regnant during World War II (i.e. over 400 percent more secondary sources than primary sources). 
#Likewise, when completing a search for “Christian IX of Denmark” on JSTOR, one sees that 7 primary sources and 74 secondary sources use this exact title for Denmark’s king at the start of the 20th century (i.e. over 900 percent more secondary sources than primary sources). Hurricane Andrew (444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Option 3 context: [[WP:RS]]s show (Name) of (Country) format is more common in secondary sources

message: In the closing statement of the RfC written on November 2, 2023, the closer noted that 
However, by analyzing a series of RMs initiated before November 2023 for European sovereigns whose targets were more concise titles, a more nuanced picture of this  emerges:
NOTE: APT originally included some of these RMs in his evidence for the RfC linked in the opening statement of this discussion.
 RMs for European monarchs
Article where RM was initiated	Proposed target             	Was RM successful?
Anne, Queen of Great Britain  	Queen Anne                  	No
Elizabeth I of England        	Elizabeth I                 	Yes
George I of Great Britain     	George I                    	No
Juan Carlos I of Spain        	Juan Carlos I               	Yes (Note that this discussion happened on a separate article talk page)
Maria Theresa of Austria      	Maria Theresa               	Yes
Napoleon I of France          	Napoleon I (now at Napoleon)	Yes
Oscar I of Sweden             	Oscar I                     	No
Victor Emmanuel III of Italy  	Victor Emmanuel III         	No
As can be seen from the above information, the supposed consensus that was acknowledged in the November 2023 RfC was not truly agreed upon. Additionally, a box in the lede of WP:SILENCE states the following:
I can produce this  on the spot: Two days after the RfC linked in the opening statement closed, I voiced my disagreement in writing with the final decision (albeit on a user talk page). This edit should indicate in no uncertain terms that one  regarding that RfC outcome.
Furthermore, I am not the only user who has expressed disagreement with how article titles on European sovereigns have been titled in recent years, as illustrated by this discussion on George III’s talk page.
Finally, as I illustrate in Appendix A of my extended rationale below, there is precedent for longer titles that are not necessarily WP:COMMONNAMEs to be used to identify members of European royalty on Wikipedia. The outcome of the November 2023 RfC is inconsistent with the pattern that I will show in that section. Hurricane Andrew (444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Option 4 context: The [[WP:CONSENSUS]] of the linked RfC in the opening statement has been debatable

message: #First and foremost, I thank you in advance for carefully considering all of the opinions expressed in this dicussion. RfCs like mine are no easy task for the community to resolve, and your service is greatly appreciated.
#I ask that you be cautious for signs of response bias and participation bias when evaluating the substance of each argument expressed. As with most other functions of Wikipedia, there was no randomness involved in the creation of this RfC. Therefore, the consensus of this sample of Wikipedia editors cannot be generalized to be reflective of the population of all Wikipedia users. Moreover, this discussion may only reflect extreme viewpoints or other biased perspectives.
#WP:COMPETENCE notes the following:
:
:Consequently, I ask that in the spirit of this guidance, as you evaluate each argument made in this RfC, you place greater weight on reasonings that show a strong understanding of the implications of this discussion on the article titles of pertinent European monarchs.
Hurricane Andrew (444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: APT’s notes for the closer

message: NOTE: APT originally published this information on September 18, 2023 as evidence in support of his argument in the RfC linked in the opening statement.
Below, I have listed select princes and princesses from five current European monarchies. Moreover, using Google search results, I show that each of their Wikipedia article titles are less common than some alternatives but are still used regardless'. I see no reason why monarchs’ titles should not follow the same trend in the spirit of WP:CONSISTENT:
 Wikipedia titles for European princes and princesses
Title                                 	Google hits for Title	Alternative name  	Google hits for Alternative name	Percentage comparison of Google Title hits with Google Alternative hits
William, Prince of Wales              	659,000              	Prince William    	129,000,000                     	0.5% of Google Alternative hits
Catherine, Princess of Wales          	1,220,000            	Kate Middleton    	152,000,000                     	0.8% of Google Alternative hits
Diana, Princess of Wales              	4,940,000            	Princess Diana    	53,500,000                      	9.23% of Google Alternative hits
Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex          	1,850,000            	Prince Harry      	170,000,000                     	1.09% of Google Alternative hits
Meghan, Duchess of Sussex             	4,870,000            	Meghan Markle     	347,000,000                     	1.40% of Google Alternative hits
Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon	122,000              	Princess Margaret 	12,200,000                      	1% of Google Alternative hits
Anne, Princess Royal                  	452,000              	Princess Anne     	14,900,000                      	3.03% of Google Alternative hits
Prince Andrew, Duke of York           	310,000              	Prince Andrew     	78,800,000                      	0.39% of Google Alternative hits
Prince Edward, Duke of Edinburgh      	184,000              	Prince Edward     	95,500,000                      	0.19% of Google Alternative hits
Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark     	62,000               	Prince Frederik   	640,000                         	9.69% of Google Alternative hits
Haakon, Crown Prince of Norway        	18,600               	Prince Haakon     	271,000                         	6.86% of Google Alternative hits
Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland  	26,200               	Prince Carl Philip	797,000                         	3.29% of Google Alternative hits
Leonor, Princess of Asturias          	130,000              	Princess Leonor   	954,000                         	13.63% of Google Alternative hits
Hurricane Andrew (444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: APPENDIX A: Evidence of WP:COMMONNAME already being disregarded for multiple European royals (and WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT being used)

message: *Option 4 - Bring back consistency, in the form of Monarch # of country. GoodDay (talk) 22:15, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: The below statement was modified at 23:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You aborted this attempt to overturn the WP:NCROY consensus only to then close the Talk:Edward I of England RM attempt to enforce the WP:NCROY consensus as "no consensus". You are perfectly aware that you are not an "uninvolved editor". You are as involved as one can possibly be. You even went to share these "good news" with the two editors who supported you here and who took part in all of these discussions. These are incredibly inappropriate actions., , , , , , , , , , , ,  Surtsicna (talk) 21:56, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Surtsicna - I've BOLDly undone the move closure. No need to go through WP:MR with such a clearly hostile atmosphere brewing. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:01, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

text: I agree that I see a lot of inappropriate behavior here: you closed an RfC you started as withdrawn after more than a dozen people weighed in?  With a summary that, in the third person, directs people to your personal final statement?!  (That's not to mention the "neutral" statement at the beginning that directs all participants to read your own rationale, again in the third person.)  The RM closure was not better.  Wikipedia policies and consensus are not about you personally, it doesn't matter what you personally accept or don't accept (except that refusing to accept consensus in a disruptive manner can get you blocked).  --JBL (talk) 22:01, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright. Andrew made an error, it's now undone: we don't need to crucify him over it (that's not directed towards you, JBL, just a general warning to others as I see so many have been pinged and may chip in soon). Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

text: I have retracted my closing statement. I understand why my statement was insincere and inappropriate. Again, I sincerely apologize for my WP:DISRUPTIVE behavior and the subsequent frustrations that have arisen. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 23:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

text: All is well on my end. Also, I will disengage from talking about the Edward I RM further and let a truly uninvolved party address that discussion. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 01:43, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Closing statement by APT

message: Monarchies in the Americas has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:45, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good article reassessment for [[Monarchies in the Americas]] 

message: Hello, WikiProject, 
I'd appreciate if some knowledgable editor could look over this article and evaluate whether this person's royal claim (from 400 years ago) is real or this is effectively a promotional hoax article that should be tagged for some form of deletion. Thanks for any help you can offer. Liz Read! Talk! 03:06, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Stefano Černetić]]

message: There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Wedding of Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia and Rebecca Virginia Bettarini#Requested move 16 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:56, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move at [[Talk:Wedding of Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia and Rebecca Virginia Bettarini#Requested move 16 January 2024]] 

message: There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Heads of former ruling families#Requested move 13 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 09:21, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move at [[Talk:Heads of former ruling families#Requested move 13 January 2024]] 

message: Hello, I've started an rfc on the inclusion of Frederik X's hosue, if so which, and how. Not experienced in rfc's either, so comments and advice are much appreciated. EmilySarah99 (talk) 10:01, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rfc on Frederik X house 

message: There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Francis Phoebus of Navarre#Requested move 15 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 02:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move at [[Talk:Francis Phoebus of Navarre#Requested move 15 January 2024]] 

message: There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Nicholas II of Russia#Requested move 24 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:53, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move at [[Talk:Nicholas II of Russia#Requested move 24 January 2024]]

message: There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Yang di-Pertuan Agong#Requested move 4 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 21:29, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move at [[Talk:Yang di-Pertuan Agong#Requested move 4 February 2024]] 

message: An editor seems to believe that Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich of Russia was Emperor of Russia from 1-26 December 1825. Historians (and Konstantin's 1823 renounciation) says otherwise. See Konstantin's bio page & List of Russian monarchs, etc. GoodDay (talk) 07:08, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was Constantine, emperor of Russia? 

message: I am just notifying editors of this discussion here, which may be of interest to this WikiProject. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 08:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notification of discussion [[Talk:Nicholas II#Title in infobox|here]] 

message: There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Zog I of Albania#Requested move 14 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 01:23, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move at [[Talk:Zog I of Albania#Requested move 14 March 2024]] 

message: There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Otto II, Holy Roman Emperor#Requested move 27 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 14:45, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move at [[Talk:Otto II, Holy Roman Emperor#Requested move 27 February 2024]] 

message: I have noticed that all the children of the Prince and Princess of all Royal families in Europe have their own articles. While the articles on the children of Princess Madeleine, Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland and Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland have all in AfDs in the part been redirected to their parents articles. Why? And for consistency I propose that we re-create their articles as well. BabbaQ (talk) 07:47, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably because of WP:INHERIT and WP:INVALIDBIO. "Consistency" is not desirable in this. It should be determined case-by-case. DeCausa (talk) 08:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swedish Royal children 

message: There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Pharnavaz I of Iberia#Requested move 6 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move at [[Talk:Pharnavaz I of Iberia#Requested move 6 February 2024]] 

message: There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Isabella I of Castile#Requested move 29 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 13:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move at [[Talk:Isabella I of Castile#Requested move 29 February 2024]] 

message: I noticed that Princess Mathilde of Schönburg-Waldenburg, Princess Augusta of Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, and Theodora of Hesse-Darmstadt which each had AFDs that agreed on turning them into redirects as seen here, here, and here, had them turned back into articles that are more or less article to their previous versions. 98.228.137.44 (talk) 00:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for letting us know. I have redirected again and warned the editor. DrKay (talk) 07:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirects converted back to articles 

message: There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Mark Phillips#Requested move 27 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 07:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move at [[Talk:Mark Phillips#Requested move 27 March 2024]] 

message: You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Catherine, Princess of Wales § Simplicity and concision.  Aaron Liu (talk) 12:52, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion at [[:Talk:Catherine, Princess of Wales#Simplicity and concision|Talk:Catherine, Princess of Wales §&nbsp;Simplicity and concision]]

message: Several of the requested moves listed on the main page have been open for several months. 98.228.137.44 (talk) 03:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. See this AN thread. Rosbif73 (talk) 06:39, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Backlog of requested moves 

message: There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Sarukhan, Bey of Magnesia#Requested move 9 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject.  ASUKITE 14:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move at [[Talk:Sarukhan, Bey of Magnesia#Requested move 9 March 2024]] 

message: Editors are invited to contribute to the discussion at Template talk:Hanoverian princes to decide whether all princes born after March 1914 should be removed from the template, and that similar edits should be made at other navboxes. DrKay (talk) 16:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The question is not, whether individuals born after March 1914 should be removed. The question is, whether people should be added to the template, when even very specific sources like Lines of Succession or Burke's Royal Families of the World does not support the claim that those individuals are to be titled as Prince of Hanover. There is consensus (at least from my point of view), that any individual can be added when there are proper sources for such claim. --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 17:36, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The template is for Hanoverian princes not the heads of the house. DrKay (talk) 17:37, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I never suggested that it is for heads of the house. I have no idea how you come to this claim. I explicitly agreed to add any individual, even born after 1914, when a proper source verifies this claim. I did not wrote Lines of Sucession or Burke's Royal Families of the World and do not know which principles they followed by attributing this titles. But for Lines of Succession I can assure you, that it is not Heads of the House.--Theoreticalmawi (talk) 17:56, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Template:Hanoverian princes]] 

message: You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves § Adding hyphens to French personal names.  Ham II (talk) 05:38, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion at [[:Wikipedia talk:Requested moves#Adding hyphens to French personal names|Wikipedia talk:Requested moves §&nbsp;Adding hyphens to French personal names]]

message: You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) § Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) - RfC drafting for reversion of the November 2023 change.  Rosbif73 (talk) 08:00, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion at [[:Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)#Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) - RfC drafting for reversion of the November 2023 change|Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) §&nbsp;Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) - RfC drafting for reversion of the November 2023 change]]

message: I'm wondering if anyone from this WikiProject might be interested in taking  under their wing and possibly helping them out when it comes to creating articles about nobles/royals. I came across this user at :WP:THQ#spelling and grammar help and they seem to need the assistance of someone familiar with this type of article, how its sourced and how to best establish its Wikipedia notability. They seem to be arguing that the Wikipedia notability of the subject's they're trying to create articles about is inherited because they're relatives of someone Wikipedia notable (that's exactly  not really true :WP:NRVE), but their might be other reasons that some of the subjects being written about are Wikipedia notable. Part of the problem seems to be that Briannemartindale looks to be mainly creating one or two sentence stubs with very few sources cited (e.g. :Henry Wentworth, 3rd Baron Wentworth) and then asking others to clean things up on the articles talk pages (e.g. :Talk:Henry Wentworth, 3rd Baron Wentworth); I've seen others try to do something similar before and it usually doesn't work too well when it comes to article creation. Many of these articles already seem to have been draftified (probably justified in most cases) to give Briannemartindale a chance to work some more on them, but they don't seem to like that. Given the types of articles and content Briannemartindale appears to be interested in, perhaps they would be interested in becoming a member of this WikiProject. Briannemartidale has already been warned several times over the years about stuff and even seems to have ended up at ANI a few years back. One of the most recent warnings issued is related to poor translating, which actually can lead to problems per :WP:TFOLWP and :WP:OTHERLANGS if done poorly. Anyway, if someone wants to try mentoring this user a bit, then that would be great. They seem to mean well, and perhaps they be able to turn things around with the help of someone more experienced with these articles. They do seem to need a bit of specialized guidance that probably is something the more general noticeboards like the Teahouse or Help Desk is going to be able to provide. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:15, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: yes help is what im needing since my spelling and grammar is very bad due to my strokes that i had several years ago Briannemartindale (talk) 21:28, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: There is absolutely no problem with your "spelling and grammar"? Your problem is not understanding the concept of notability. Theroadislong (talk) 21:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  User:Briannemartindale and articles about royals/nobles 

message: i have several drafts that could be included on your drafts page including  Henry Wentworth, 3rd Baron Wentworth, Nicholas Audley, 1st Baron Audley, Sir Richard Wentworth , Mary Neville, Baroness le Despencer  
help would be much appreciated to get these drafts up and running thanks
thanks  Briannemartindale (talk) 23:32, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Any reason you didn't link to Draft:Henry Wentworth, 3rd Baron Wentworth, Draft:Nicholas Audley, 1st Baron Audley, Draft:Sir Richard Wentworth, Draft:Mary Neville, Baroness le Despencer? —Tamfang (talk) 03:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  question 

message: There is a requested move discussion at Talk:House of Bjelbo#Requested move 27 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 12:16, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move at [[Talk:House of Bjelbo#Requested move 27 May 2024]] 

message: There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Philip of Sweden#Requested move 29 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 01:08, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move at [[Talk:Philip of Sweden#Requested move 29 May 2024]]