Talk:Falun Gong/Archive 1

message: 1. Just for the record, the reference to the 2 billion year old nuclear reactor is proven scientifically, known as The Oklo phenomenon http://www.wonuc.org/nucwaste/oklo.htm, no reason to awe.
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and li is so and so light-years old, quarks and neutrinoes are buddhas, science is introduced by aliens and medicine is bad for you...
2. The Cristian Churches banned in China, maltreated tibetans and uighurs, etc will all tell you that the actual Chinese regime has a terrible human rights record and frequently use the excuse of "evil sect", "contra-revolutionaries", etc when brutaly dealing with differently thinking people and needs cover-ups.
In the case of Falun Gong, the thuth is no other government besides the Chinese one ever had any problem with Falun Gong. Nor do they classify Falun Gong as sect, more so "evil" sect.
If we talk about the deaths by torture in police custody of the Falun Gong practitioners, the public torture sessions that happened in Tibet, or the mass murdering of the uighurs or the massacre in Tian an men square, pls keep in mind: these people were just thinking different than the chinese authorities, that's all.
3. "Today Falun Gong is no longer influential in mainland China". Ok, but who says that? How can that be proved, since all of the Falun Gong practitioners have to hide or are already inprisoned? The press is controled by the state and nobody can count them anyway. Since the movement is banned, one cannot now. Right?
4. A lot of things seem just inuendos and rumours: "some believers hurt or kill themselves after reading the books by Li Hongzhi". "Some report that Li did not even write the books himself". "Some people also think that Li's purpose of introducing Falun Gong is just to earn money".
One cannot prove these things, there's no evidence and even no cited sources. I think that these have no place in an enciclopedia. They make the whole article look really bad. -
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:All that we need is an unbiased article. Present opinions otherwise... Colipon 23:14, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too many rumours/unprovable comments 

message: I removed the following from the lead section because it is not introductory material:
:As CNN's Willy Lam reported a Communist Party veteran providing his analysis: "By unleashing a Mao-style movement [against Falun Gong], Jiang is forcing senior cadres to pledge allegiance to his line. This will boost Jiang's authority-and may give him enough momentum to enable him to dictate events at the pivotal 16th Communist Party congress next year."
:The Falun Dafa Information Center, a representative organization for Falun Gong, has stated that more than 1,000 deaths have been verified in police or government custody due to the government's crackdown on the practice.
Please add it to the relevant section of the article. --Jiang 03:58, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead section 

message: In the "Origins and Beliefs" section - 
:[...] Earth is currently being invaded by aliens.
nowhere in any of Mr. Li's works will you find any mention of an "alien invasion", but there is acknowledgement of the existence of extraterrestrials. I wonder where the author got this from.
:[...] Li has declined to name his own teachers or to delineate the actual provenance of Falun Gong when asked directly.
In all of Mr. Li's 9-day seminar/lectures given in China, he mentions the origins during first few sections of the first lecture. Also, in the Chinese edition of the book "Zhuan Falun" (prior 1999, i will try to look up publisher), there is a 20-30 page or so postscript/addendum gives more detailed information.
the whole paragraph looks like a poor paraphrasing job.
:In a Time magazine article dated May 10, 1999:
"TIME: Who were your teachers?
Li: I do not wish to have their names known. I had masters in two schools. Prior to the Cultural Revolution people enjoyed quite a bit of religious freedom. Chinese were quite used to such things. It was like going to church in the West. 
TIME: When did you start teaching?
Li: I am more than 40 years old, and I have been practicing qigong for many years. When qigong became popular, I did not come out in the public. I did not want to teach about stopping illnesses or keeping fit. 
TIME: What made you finally come out?
Li: When these masters asked me to come out. At the time I said that there were too many people practicing qigong, and I said that I did not want to cure illnesses or to help people keep fit. They said, "What you do will be different. These people who are teaching how to cure illnesses and teaching fitness, are paving the road for your coming out." 
TIME: Where were these masters?
Li: They were in the mountains."
:So, the sentence about his reluctance to discuss Falungong's provenance goes back in. Fire Star 21:55, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  claims 

message: I don't want to jump in the middle of ya'll's debate, but I do feel including this photo I took in NYC would be encyclopedic. Notice I simply put "enacting" and not "reenacting" in the caption to be NPOV.  At your leisure, of course!  --Alterego 20:58, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo of Falun Gong activists in NYC 

message: 66.65.181.145 has been making some heavy edits, and I seriously question the POV of most of them. --InShaneee 03:57, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: (I've moved the most recent comments to bottom of the page, where they will be easier to find) I agree. I've reverted them. Such cosmetic changes are going to have to be discussed and consensus reached before they will stand. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, and articles about any religious group or New Age fad, whether it be Falun Gong, Reiki or the Roman Catholic Church should be balanced and NPOV, warts and all. Reporting on the things Li Hongzhi has actually said pertaining to Falun Gong and where it may have come from, even if they make him look like a crackpot, has a place in the article.66.65.181.145 should read Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Fire Star 15:11, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Agreed. Reverted. Fire Star 15:32, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Hi, I wanted to apologise for making corrections to this article before discussing. I'm not yet sure of the correct protocol, as I'm relatively new to Wiki. At the time I didn't have a user login. I tried to make the corrections objectively, providing more 'meat' while trying to maintain neutral POV. 
Please see the reasons for the suggested changes below, I understand if you want to roll any back.
Removed the following links as they were broken:
* article in party-controlled Chinese newspaper against Falun Gong
* article in party-controlled Chinese newspaper against Falun Gong
Replaced the broken link: 
* Ian Johnson's articles on the Falun Gong crisis
with:
* Series of 2001 Pulitzer Prize winning articles on the crackdown on Falun Gong in China By Ian Johnson, Wall Street Journal
Minor correction to:
* about the arrest of U.S. Citizen Charles Lee
replaced with:
* About the arrest and imprisonment of U.S. Citizen Charles Lee in China
(to make it clear a U.S. citizen is actually imprisoned in China, not U.S.)
Replaced:
On the other hand, there has been several incidents in which China's state-owned television networks were jammed with Falun Gong promotion materials.
with:
On the other hand, there have been several incidents in which China's state-owned television networks were jammed with reports on the persecution of Falun Gong. 
I replaced this because to the best of my knowledge, the cable hacks were about the Chinese government's denying basic human rights to Falun Gong practitioners, not actually promoting the practice per se.
Added:
According to WOIPFG reports, eight Falun Gong practitioners were arrested after one of the jamming incidents in Changchun city, including Liu Chengjun, who was allegedly tortured to death after 21 months incarceration in Jilin Prison.
I thought this should be mentioned if you mention the cable hacks... I felt it's fairly important to mention what happened to those people.
Regards 
Jason Watson
:Greetings Jason. As far as I can see from a cursory look, they seem like good edits. Congratulations and welcome to Wikipedia. Fire Star 02:58, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apology... Re: Changes by 203.5.75.11 

message: This material is from the article List of purported cults, which we are paring down to a pure list. Editors here can best evaluate its statements and decide how to integrate it into this article. Thanks, -Willmcw 11:08, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
:Falun Gong
:Falun Gong, or Falun Dafa, is a quasi-spiritual group that practices Qigong with some overtones of Taoism and especially Buddhism. The group became so popular in China (alleged to have at one point upwards of 100 million adherents) that it was repressed and eventually criminalized as a cult by the Chinese Communist Government of the People's Republic of China. It has remained relatively popular regardless, and has gained a sizable following internationally as well. Some see it as harmless exercise, yet the public statements and methods of Falun Gong's founder, Li Hongzhi (now living in the U.S.), seem controversial to many more traditional Qigong schools (schools not necessarily sympathetic to the communists) as well as the Chinese Government.
I suggest considering Falun Gong as part of Buddhism.
Sarcelles 11:44, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Purported cult

message: We're dealing with a dynamic IP vandal right here. So far we've seen him blanking this article on three different IPs. They can all be blocked, sure, but maybe this calls for IP range blocking. If someone could do that, it would be nice. I could, but since range blocking is a little tricy, I'm not sure I should risk it myself. Anyone?--Kaonashi 01:19, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've protected the main and talk pages for now. Perhaps someone who can do a range block can be contacted at Vandalism in progress before we unprotect these pages? Unfortunately, I have to sign off soon. Cheers, Fire Star 01:28, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: The spate of recent editing has been productive for the most part, but Wikipedia has to be careful not to imply that Falun Gong actually works to develop subjectives like "moral character" etc. Wikipedia policy is one of (especially) NPOV where we can only report, not support, such claims. Unfortunately, there are no medical tests or even universal agreement on the constitution of either morality or character, for example. Fire Star 12:45, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent changes, April 2005 

message: It seems that there has been some debate over The Epoch Times' platform on Falun Gong.  The wording surrounding this claim has been altered to be as NPOV as possible (so that it isn't taken necessarily as fact) and links to articles which supposedly support this claim have been added.  If anyone finds references to suggest Epoch Times' neutrality on this issue please add links. mas5353 1:52 AM April 21, 2005 (EST)
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hmmm, Wall Street Journal's article mentioned The Epoch Times' tax record shows the newspaper's chairman is a top FLG speaker.
donno if i can post the whole article due to copyright issue.
--Weaponofmd 17:58, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pro-Falun Gong Epoch Times 

message: hmmm, Wall Street Journal's article mentioned The Epoch Times' tax record shows the newspaper's chairman is a top FLG speaker.
donno if i can post the whole article due to copyright issue.
--Weaponofmd 17:58, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: =======

message: Since the point of view exists and seems notable    , perhaps this article ought to touch on the history of, e.g., the Taiping Rebellion and the Yellow Turbans. —Charles P. (Mirv) 07:34, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  history lessons