Talk:Theodoros Kolokotronis

message: wasn't he bandit/robber that got thrown out of mainland by the Church?
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=kolokotronis%20bandit&um=1&sa=N&tab=wp
No he wasn't. Arathian (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 08:04, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Bandit

message: There is a pictured labeled The Kastro at Argos which looks like Kastro Palamidi in Nafplio.  While Kolokotronis took both fortresses, the image is still mislabeled, and it appears in the section of text treating the defense of Larissa by Ypsilantis, not the taking by Kolokotronis of Palamidi. --Joe 23:48, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Miscapioned image?

message: maybe something should be written about Kolokotronis political affiliations and his support for Otto.--Greece666 23:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  political affiliations 

message: I thought a clearer picture would help.
Philhellenism 02:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NEW PICTURE 

message: Greek Documentary "1821" shows new facts about Kolokotronis and Marko Botsaris ethnicity,both of them were Aravanite's http://www.zeriamerikes.com/content/article/1885206.html . The name "Kolokotronis " is translation of his original surname (in Albanian or Arvanite dialect) "Bythguri",. Before surname "Bythguri" alias "Kolokotronis" ,they were named "Çergjini".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlbertBikaj (talk • contribs) 09:20, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The adjustment in lead violates wp:mosbio and the previous version was restored. Even if he had some Arvanite origins, which still needs to be backed by wp:rs, this isn't an argument to adjust the introductory part.Alexikoua (talk) 11:39, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears you didn't follow wp:mosbio, about the opening part: "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which t'he person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.... Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability."
To sum up, he was a Greek general and revolutionary. If there is something about his ethnicity or origin, you are welcome to contribute in the appropriate section of the article.Alexikoua (talk) 11:53, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I have references about his arvanite origin.You did the same with Panagiotis Kone.You delete facts that clearly indicates his origin.You're hiding the truth.
79.106.109.180 (talk) 12:51, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnicity of Kolokotronis 

message: Though I'm not going to remove all quotes entirely as done in this case [] exessive quotefarming should be avoided.Alexikoua (talk) 08:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a similar issue about a quote from a 19th century source in the Arvanites page. An admin familiar with Balkan issues was ok with it . In this instance when the above editor removed the quote and reference  for reasons of "no reason to overemphasize in this specific event", that sounded more like wp:idontlikeit than anything else. Kolokotronis was an eyewitness to the massacre of Muslims and Jews in Tripolitsa by forces he led. That's a relevant piece of information for the article despite whatever personal views anyone might have.Resnjari (talk) 08:54, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Overempasizing & quotefarming about a specific event in which Kolokotronis did not participate is irrelevant to the article (though it IS mentioned). For future reference during the Fall of Tripolitsa events Kolokotronis was saving the Albanian mercenaries and didn't participate in atrocities against the Jews&Turkish population.Alexikoua (talk) 10:58, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Where not taking about Albanian Ottoman troops who where fighting to against armed elements challenging the sovereignty of the state, so not sure why you decided to go there. About the article and what was cited in there he didn't partake, but and this is the important but, he was an eyewitness to what his troops under his command did which was massacre the Muslim and Jewish populations of Tripolitsa. Its his recollections of events to Edmonds of which that specific sentence is based. Please don't delete the reference again. Thankyou.Resnjari (talk) 11:53, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The event is already mentioned and there is no need to add the entire quote from his memoirs too. You also need to avoid excessive quotefarming as you have been instructed by various editors (a typical example []). Thanks.Alexikoua (talk) 12:54, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: As for "quote farming", you have a history of cherry picking quotes and using them selectively and it has been noted by admins (a typical example: ). We can do this memory lane thing if you wish. Don't delete the reference. Thank you.Resnjari (talk) 14:37, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Apart from excessive quotefarming abuse (which you stubbornly ignore to accept though you have been instructed by various editors) you need to avoid OR claims about the so-called Tripolitsa involvement of Kolokotronis. On the other hand accusing co-editors by providing a dif from .... 2010 about a settled issue isn't a constructive approach.Alexikoua (talk) 20:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Here we go, let me note something to you the quote in this article was not placed by me. But since you have no issue with removal of quotes you wont oppose similar cases in other articles. As for being instructed by other editors, admins have told you off for your cherry picking and selective usage of quote farming. You have no qualms in brining up peoples history same goes for history. And please don't claim that its so called. It was Kollokotronis' own words. Thats why there is the quote its mainly for the doubters who think its still so called there that a massacre ever happened. Its fact, Kollokotronis witnessed his troops doing what they did.Resnjari (talk) 20:38, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

text: The involvement of Kolokotronis was science fiction: an event that he didn't participate & no wonder you have nothing to present so far. For future reference my supposed "cherry picking claim" of 2010 was solved that time (I assume that's your most serious accusation against me).Alexikoua (talk) 23:35, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: No, he didn't participate he was an eyewitness to what HIS Greek and Arvanite troops did which was to massacre Muslim and Jewish civilians of Tripolitsa. Regarding yourself its not science fiction, an admin noted your behavior and editing style. If you have an issue take it up with the administrator who called you out on it.Resnjari (talk) 07:23, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Apart from the OR you claim you insist to provide additional OR (this time about the supposed Arvanite troops under Kolokotronis' command). If you mean the "serious" issue I had in 2010 about not providing a full citation of an academic journal this has been settled and fixed eight years ago.Alexikoua (talk) 09:46, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The admin was pointing out how you employ sources selectively, not though an issue with the source itself. Big difference. On the other matter The quote was a Kolokotronis' own recollections of what he witnessed. Source is this translated English version of those recollections by Elizabeth Edmonds: Kolokotrones, the Klepht and the Warrior, Sixty Years of Peril and Daring. An autobiography . That source is cited in the article. As for Arvanites participating in those events here is Alexis Heraclides (2011). The essence of the Greek-Turkish rivalry: national narrative and identity. The London School of Economics and Political Science. p. 15.  . This is fact, not science fiction.Resnjari (talk) 10:10, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears that the quote you provided is refuting your argument: Kolokotronis didn't had Arvanites in the units he commanded during the fall of Tripolitsa, neither he ordered any massacre. Please read the available bibliography carefully before initiating similar discussions.Alexikoua (talk) 11:09, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Kolokotronis was the leading commander of the siege. He also provides an aye witness account. I stand by what i wrote. Heraclides states it was the "atrocious onslaught" on Tripolitsa by Greeks and "Hellenised Christian Albanians" (i.e Arvanites) followed further below by what means i.e "ethnic cleansing". Its quite clear.Resnjari (talk) 11:18, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Kolokotronis was "one of the commanders of the siege". That time he wasn't even in command of the Morea forces (not to mention Hydriotes etc.). He was proclaimed a commander-in-chief of the Morea forces by the Revolutionary Goverment some months after the fall of Tripolitsa (in 1822) []. The military leader of Morea that time was D. Ipsilantis. Alexikoua (talk) 11:49, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Your referring to the high command of all forces in the Pelopoennesse with Ipsilantis. Thats different. I referring to Kolokotronis' position at the siege of Tripolitsa. Ipsilantis was not there. Kolokotronis himself did not participate the massacre but he was was there and he gave an eyewitness account of what happened in the aftermath. Its on the record from his own self in his words.Resnjari (talk) 12:58, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: To be more precise the commanding general of Morea Ipsilantis was in charge of the force that was besieging Tripolitsa Around this town the Greeks, under the supreme command of Dimitrios Ipsilantis, had concentrated some 12,000 men. Kolokotronis doesn't even claim that he was an eyewitness he simply recycles third party accounts while he entered Tripolitsa after the incident (Thirty-two thousand were reported to have been slain. One Hydriote [boasted that he had] killed ninety. About a hundred Greeks were killed; but the end came [thus]: a proclamation was issued that the slaughter must cease." is that an eyewitness account?). He was a popular figure of the national struggle but he came in charge of the revolutionary army some months after the fall of Tripolitsa.Alexikoua (talk) 15:55, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

text: so does that count for all 19th century sources where quotes are given on articles ? I am very curious ? Or is it selective use ?Resnjari (talk) 16:29, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotations in citations 

message: Grillo is wrong, the family did not originate from Vuno. The family's original name was "Tzerginis" and they originated from  a village in Arcadia. It's very easy to find sources that contradict Grillo . The other source is WP:TERTIARY and not suitable for such a claim. Khirurg (talk) 16:50, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: If you find multiple peer-riviewed academic sources (not Protothema) that say the family's original name was Tzerginis, then Grillo can be removed per WP:DUE. Otherwise Grillo's work, focused on Arvanites, should stay. The other source is tertiary but it was published by a reliable academic publisher and says the same thing as Grillo says. Tertiary sources are not banned on Wikipedia. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:56, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no requirement for "multiple" (although even that shouldn't be hard). The claim is WP:EXTRAORDINARY and doesn't stand a chance. Khirurg (talk) 17:05, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not "extraordinary" at all. Unless you provide the sources requested above, "doesn't stand a chance" is your opinion. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:08, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: In a nutshell, the first member of the Kolokotronis family was Triantafyllakos Tzerginis, who lived in Roupaki, then named Kotsikas in Arcadia. Everything else is slightly nonsense. This comes from the Kolokotronis family archive. I will try to find it to place it here. Please let’s not include nonsense because last time we have seen to be labelled as Aromanian. At least we need to achieve consensus about what kind of nonsense to include... Othon I (talk) 17:52, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, this is well known. This should be pretty easy. Khirurg (talk) 18:43, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Tertiary sources: summarize, and often quote, primary and secondary sources., but in this case there we have the opposite: a tertiary that objects primary and secondary sources, i.e. not appropriate for use on this part.Alexikoua (talk) 02:58, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

text: By the way who is Grillo? By a search it appears that he never produced another work apart from the specific one at 1985 [](republished in the 2000s). Apart from that various some ultra-nationalists also tend to cite him [].Alexikoua (talk) 03:21, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancestry 

message: Why isn't this man mentioned as one of the perpetrators of the ethnic cleansing against Turks? 
This person is one of the perpetrators of the Tripolitsa massacre. Today, even the Greeks themselves admit that they massacred the Turks in Tripolitsa and are proud of it, why do Wikipedia users not mention that this man is a war criminal? 37.155.72.85 (talk) 18:42, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Please provide your three best independent reliable sources which you think represent your POV and let us review/discuss. --ARoseWolf 19:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic cleansing against Turks