Talk:Apostasy

message: It would be a good idea if relevant material could somehow be included about what happens to individuals who leave secret societies, such as the Freemasons, the Rosicrucians or the Propaganda Due. Because information on this is generally rare, few people have written about it in a detailed way except certain conspiracy theorists. For example, it was alleged that the death of celebrities like Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, John F. Kennedy and William Morgan was actually caused by their sudden departure from the secret societies. There is even an organization called the Order of Former Freemasons that discusses the phenomenon openly and without fear of repercussions.  ADM (talk) 02:12, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You may or may not be willing to accept my word for it, but as an active and fairly "advanced" Freemason (Past Master, 32nd Degree KCCH, York Rite, etc.) I can state categorically that there is absolutely no policy regarding Freemasons who choose to leave the Fraternity, nor any recriminations against them.  While it is true that any Freemason who leaves the Fraternity and then goes on to violate his Obligations (by divulging Masonic secrets) will be ex-communicado vis-a-vis Masons in good standing, so long as he does not go to that extreme and simply leaves the Craft, Masons will just loose respect for him and will no longer honor any of the fraternal duties that they once owed him.  Anyone who claims that former Masons are persecuted or in any other way harmed by Masons, is spouting nonsense.  It would, in fact, be considered un-Masonic for a Mason to do so. Bricology (talk) 05:29, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Apostasy from secret societies

message: Jehovah's Witnesses have a large number of apostates who have written books airing their grievances. They are rather notable and significant to the discussion. Two of the notable apostates are on Wikipedia, that is Ray Franz and James Penton . James Penton is notable because he is a Ph.D and Professor emeritus in Canada, and Ray Franz is also notable because he has written two books which are referred to extensively on the Jehovah's Witness page. There is another notable apostate of Jehovah's Witness Tony Wills who wrote a sharp history of Jehovah's Witnesses in 1967 which was republished in a 2nd edition in 2006. Jehovah's Witnesses  have had a lot of problems with apostates in the psat few decades, so either a section under Christianity, a few of the names under notable apostates would be of importance. Ray Franz formerly was listed under notable apostates, but I didn't see any discussion about his name being taken off, it might have been taken off just by a passerby, as it were. In any case, this comment is open for discussion. Both Ray Franz and James Penton have pages here on Wikipedia.Natural (talk) 23:56, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The use of the word "apostate" in reference to an individual is usually pejorative. Your previous edits have used the term in an attempt to denigrate individuals whose views differ from yours. I deleted Franz's name from this article because it was unsupported by any reliable published source. Please read WP:BLP before adding any information here. LTSally (talk) 00:06, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jehovah's Witness apostates 

message: Thanks for including the pronunciation of "apostasy".  What about "apostate"?  How am I to pronounce that? Can that go in the article?  Thx--24.85.68.231 (talk) 09:31, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  pronunciation? 

message: I'm suspicious of the mention that apostasy is unlawful in Ulster (ie Northern Ireland) and have been unable to trace the citation given (or references thereto). Such a provision is also likely to be contrary to the UDHR and ECHR. Any thoughts? Sidefall (talk) 17:17, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ulster - dubious 

message: I have flagged this claim as dubious: "Muslims often regard adherents of the Bahá'í faith as apostates from Islam". There are converts to Bahá'í from all faiths. Would Muslims really consider an American Christian or a Thai Buddhist who converted to Bahá'í to be an apostate from Islam? -- Q Chris (talk) 07:53, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, they would. The belief is that the Baha'i religion as a _whole_ is an Apostate belief system, so therefore anyone who belongs to it is an Apostate, regardless of whether they converted from orthodox Islam or not. 76.255.29.99 (talk) 15:43, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baha'i apostates from Islam 

message: User:Q Chris and User:Jeffro77, I think that Jeffro77's reduction of the entry on Jehovah's witnesses, with a link to a larger article, is an appropriate compromise here. I'm happy to participate in discussion here before further reverts if that is helpful? -Darouet (talk) 18:07, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Though I would note that my reduction of the section wasn't actually a compromise. It was exactly the same as my initial edit, which was apparantely mistaken for deleting the section. It is certainly not necessary for a minor Christian denomination to be presented as if it is a major religion (and certainly not at the top of the list). It is also not necessary (or appropriate) for this article to enter into whether JW doctrines are right or wrong, so that content was removed.--Jeffro77 (talk) 22:16, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: A more extensive treatment of the JW belief on apostasy is at Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs#Apostasy. That would be the more informative article to use for the "Main article" link. BlackCab (talk) 23:22, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't actually pay any attention to what had been linked as the main article in my previous edit, but I've changed it now.--Jeffro77 (talk) 06:54, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jehovah's Witnesses and article weight 

message: "A person is an apostate even if he or she believes in most of Islam, but verbally or in writing denies of one or more principles or precepts of Islam. For example, if a Muslim (...) enters a church or temple, (...) celebrates festivals of non-Muslim religion, helps build a church or temple, (...)." Nonsense. I've seen Muslism all over the Europe entering churches as per tourism, I myself have entered Holy See. In Iran or Iraq I've seen Muslims helping Christians build their churches. This paragraph is some nonsense. Maybe those are rules for wahabis from Saudi Arabia but not for Muslims.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.57.129 (talk) 02:35, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nonsense 

message: Egypt is marked on the map as one of the countries, which have the death penalty for apostatsy, yet in the list it says the punishment is 3 years imprisonment. This needs to be corrected. Which is true? --Feuerrabe (talk) 16:10, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Egypt 

message: Question:  in the list of countries where apostasy is illegal, is it illegal for abandoning just one specific religion (Islam in most cases) or is it illegal to renounce other faith as well?  What about if you already are an unbeliever when you enter the country (so just be an unbeliever is illegal, instead of giving up the religion)?  I believe we should clarify this.  Thieh (talk) 23:12, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Countries that are illegal 

message: I'm removing Meriam Yehya Ibrahim Ishag as she does not fit the definition: she was raised as a Christian and has never professed Islam (contrary to, e.g., Youcef Nadarkhani). She might fit under "people labeled as apostates", but that would be a different list. e.g. CNN Irmgard (talk) 14:17, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree, this is an article about apostacy, not a list. It is a good of how Muslims interpret apostasy. -- Q Chris (talk) 07:34, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The Meriam case belongs in this article, because in Islam, a female child does not have to profess being a Muslim to be a Muslim. If her father is Muslim, she is automatically a Muslim. If she changes her religion, or marries a non-Muslim, any time, she is an apostate. The cited source confirms this. RLoutfy (talk) 10:01, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that this case deserves a mention, but because there is a link to a separate article, much of the text is redundant. There is even repetition within the current paragraph that is unnecessary. I inserted a trimmed down version previously and believe that contains the sufficient information. When compared to the other entries in the list, the current form appears to suffer from recentism.  AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 00:54, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meriam Yehya Ibrahim Ishag 

message: Map says Morocco has the death penalty for apostasy, the body of the article gives no specifics, only that apostasy is covered by the law "indirectly", and other sources indicate that Morocco has the death penalty only for terrorism.--158.222.143.13 (talk) 05:19, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that this article explians it. As far as I understand it the Moroccan law allows the Supreme Council of Religious Scholars to impose fatwas on religious matters, and recognises these as law. The Supreme Council of Religious Scholars issued a fatwa that Muslims who leave Islam must be sentenced to death. -- Q Chris (talk) 12:38, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see how you understand that from the source you provided. No where is it stated that fatwas by the Supreme Council of Religious Scholars are recognized as law or are even binding in any way. In fact, if you follow up on the references in that source you will see that a Moroccan government official dismisses the fatwa and denying that the government has asked for their advice, which implies that they are just an advisory body. If this is the source on which the claim about the death penalty for apostasy is based, then it is clearly false -- the source itself includes an official denial that the fatwa is legally binding. The map should be changed.--158.222.143.13 (talk) 06:25, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You could be right, it needs someone who understands what "recognising" a religious law means in Morocco. If it means that religious organisatons are free to impose the penalty, or the state would impose it on their behalf then the map should stay as it is. If it is just some sort of formality then it should be changed. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:00, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

text: Well, with an explicit governmental denial that the fatwa is binding and in the absence of any source claiming otherwise it is clear that the map should be changed until someone can provide evidence that Morocco has the death penalty for apostasy. Many countries have religious authorities that are recognized by the states but there's no reason to assume that these authorities have legislative powers.--158.222.143.13 (talk) 13:59, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the original comment; the source does not imply that religious decrees are equivalent to laws or that carrying out a fatwa is necessarily legal.  See new section (Map: criminal penalties) below for map. -Coconutporkpie (talk) 19:57, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Morocco? 

message: It claims in the opening statement that Apostates are put to death under Sharia in Islam and in Judaism, and it uses Deuteronomy as the reference. I believe this should say old testament or historical/ancient Judaism, as that is not a practice of Judaism today.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.142.177.63 (talk) 19:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that the reference to "Judaism" here should be deleted unless there are other sources to confirm the accepted legitimacy of a death sentence for apostate Jews, and I have seen none, let alone verified instances of such a sentence being carried out.  As I understand it, the Bible is not generally considered a "reliable source" for this kind of statement, not least because Jewish law has been continually re-interpreted for many centuries. -Coconutporkpie (talk) 17:11, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Judaism/opening statement 

message: The article cited when referring to the legal status of apostasy in Somalia is outdated as the political climate in Somalia has changed greatly since the article was published in 2009. The Federal Government of Somalia hasn't addressed the issue apostasy. So far executions for apostasy are carried out extrajudicially by Islamist groups like Al-Shabaab. In Somaliland and Puntland, apostasy from islam is made illegal in their constitutions. Although, a punishment for apostasy hasn't been specified.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mari0-k6862 (talk • contribs) 17:25, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: A 2013 report by the IHEU on countries with the death penalty for apostates included Somalia. —Coconutporkpie (talk) 22:40, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legal status of apostasy unclear in Somalia 

message: This map incorrectly marks Egypt as a country punishing apostates with execution, which is not in the source cited. -Coconutporkpie (talk) 22:14, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map: death penalty 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The map at the beginning of the article (Map of countries with death penalty for atheists.svg) might not be appropriate here. 
Its captions in the article says it shows: "Countries in which, as of 2013, apostasy or blasphemy against the local or state religion was punishable by execution under the law. " However, according to the sources cited in the caption, the map shows countries where being an atheist is punishable by death. The name of the image and its own description page indicate the same. 
Some of the countries shown here may punish apostasy or blasphemy against Islam by execution as well, but not all atheists are apostates from Islam, and vice versa. 
Also, although the sources cited put Malaysia in the list, this inclusion is dubious. The Syariah Courts of Malaysia do not use execution (death penalty).--27.38.2.0 (talk) 00:35, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Map at the beginning of the article

message: As previously mentioned, there is no basis for claiming that some of the countries e.g. Morocco punish apostasy with the death penalty. The map is, at best, grossly misleading, and at worst blatant disinformation. This very same discussion was had 4 years ago, with the same conclusion that the legal statuses of certain countries are outdated.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.245.121 (talk) 19:20, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: To start with, you can provide reliable sources to support your criticism of the map. With that, we can put a list of errata on the page of the map and into the legends. Then someone can use that to fix the map. Thanks. Eperoton (talk) 00:06, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fix the map or remove it 

message: Some people constantly remove anything that doesn't say Hinduism completely tolerates apostasy. These are User:Snowcream and User:Wikiforhistory. Their reasons for removal seem various - unverifiable (When I gave links), synthesis (when I didn't really deviate from the sources), cherry-picked (I didn't pick out what would be added or not). The source Hinduism Today they restore is not reliable and is not based on any primary source. Hinduism has no central authority so views will differ. Their interest doesn't seem to be in letting any various views of Hindu scriptures remain. 59.96.134.44 (talk) 12:56, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the issues when dealing with Hinduism is that it is very diverse, and something believed by one branch can contradict the teachings of another. I have added a sentence indicating that there are differences, ans with this I am happy with your text. Incidentally Hinduism Today can be a good source at times, it has scholarly articles explaining various texts from Upanishads, Agamas, etc. It also has opinion pieces, so each has to be taken individually. Also it should be recognised that it represents Shaiva Siddhanta, so opinion pieces will slant towards that particular interpretation. -- Q Chris (talk) 16:27, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hinduism 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: Although the Islamic State isn't the Syrian government they still have judicial power over a portion of the country. The Islamic State does punish apostasy ,within its jurisdiction, with death while Syrian government does not. Although it is relevant to the topic of apostasy does the Islamic State deserves its own subsection or should it be classified under the section regarding Syria's laws?
Wherrman (talk) 02:41, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say no, if we don't recognise their authority then we shouldn't recognise their law. At most there should be a separate section for "Islamic state" -- Q Chris (talk) 10:54, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should the Islamic State in Syria's Laws Regarding Apostasy be considered Syrian Laws Regarding Apostasy? 

message: Nigeria is on the map but not the list...? 0m9Ep (talk) 14:10, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nigeria? 

message: Hello,
Since some editors are contesting existence of articles associating religions and religious communities to superstitions, One of the article which concerns this project/topic has been nominated for deletion. You can support or contest the deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Superstition in Judaism by putting forward your opinion.
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thread_title:   Article [[Superstition in Judaism]] has been nominated for deletion  

message: The map that has been added is incorrect (for the reasons which I will state below). That is why I initially removed it and why I will have reverted its readdition.
In contrast with this map, the Freedom of Thought Report, on which this map appears to be based, does not list Brunei, Pakistan, Somalia, Somaliland and Sudan among ten countries in which apostasy is punishable by death, at least in the latest publication as of March 2021. Malaysia, however, is listed among these countries (despite unenforceability), in contrast with this map. - Krmody (talk) 07:17, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect map 

message: I added a paragraph under "Buddhism", referring to "hypostasy", used as if it were the opposite of "apostasy", if apostasy is taken to be falling away from belief. Hypostatsy is taken to be "falling into belief", where both terms are taken as negative; nobody would call themselves either an apostate nor a hypostate, because both terms denote error.
I don't know if this word is attested anywhere other than the book I cited. For what it's worth, the prefix "hypo-" means "under". "Apo-" means "apart", so they are not etymologically opposites.
The word "hypostasy" doesn't occur in Wiktionary.
MrDemeanour (talk) 19:22, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hypostasy