Talk:The Twelfth

message: Following the edit which changed "some members of the nationalist community (who oppose the sectarian marches) and some of the unionist..." to "some members of the nationalist community (who oppose what they see as sectarian marches) and some of the unionist..." I am beginning to wonder about the way the word "sectarian" is used. Surely an organisation which excludes members of a given sect (and I don't mean unitarians) and has the object of thwarting the plans and objectives of that sect must itself be sectarian in nature. There can be no doubt that the marches on the Twelfth are sectarian in intention, nature and result. Nor does the Orange Order itself very vehemently deny that it is sectarian. I believe that "what they see as sectarian" is a weasel phrase; the marches are sectarian. It is up to us to decide whether sectarianism is a bad thing or not. A better phrase would be "some members of the nationalist community (who oppose the marches on the grounds thatthey are sectarian) and some of the unionist...". --Muinchille 16:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed, the weasel words should go. The Orange Order is very openly sectarian. The whole point of some of the parades in NI is to drive home sectarianism. That can be stated in NPOV fashion. DMorpheus 17:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sectarian

message: I would just like to point out, there are no significant orange parades in Canada in this day and age, even in newfoundland. I'm not trying to stir up an argument I just don't like canada being lumped in with sectarianism in any form. I know the Orange Order had a fundemantal influence on Ontario as well as any number of other provinces but it's still not right to put Canadian links to a certain sect that has little or nothing to do with the nation in it's modern form. I will freely admit I'm a canadian of norn irish catholic descent, but I would honestly argue for any un-biasedness (i know im making up words) in any shape form or fashion. I feel a bit stupid as I've met loads of people from the north of ireland in my days from both sides of the slim divide and in these days these silly arguments mean fuck all in people's day to day lives, the only point I'm trying to make is don't tie canada into this fading argument from centuries past, I can't think of a more forward thinking country than this land and I don't personally appreciate the mud slinging with our name's involved, let sleeping dogs lie. easy
:The article does not suggest anything about the prominence of the Order in Canadian society or the 'significance' of the parades, so I don't see that this user has any kind of point. At any rate, it certainly is accurate that there are parades held in Canada. I attended last year's Twelfth parade just outside Ottawa, which consisted of at least one hundred. I couldn't tell you the exact size of any others, but they are not infrequent - about a dozen are scheduled for this July in Ontario, including one in downtown Toronto for the 15th.
--Yipperson 04:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canada 

message: I've changed "Great Britain" to "England" in the section about the Twelfth being celebrated outside the noth of Ireland. That's because although it seems to have largely disappeared in England, I think that there are still parades in Scotland. Indeed, the photograph of a parade at Larkhall rather bears this out. Figeac (talk) 15:37, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Scotland

message: The Twelfth has and has had quite a profound impact on Northern Ireland life, as this has been the day when things explode, both literally and metaphorically. I think this article needs a bit of development to reflect the impact it has on Northern Ireland. Mouse Nightshirt 22:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Development? 

message: I've removed the following text from the Orange Order article.  An editor may wish to integrate this into the article.
:The Twelfth however remains a deeply divisive issue, not least because of allegations of triumphalism and anti-Catholicism against the Orange Order in the conduct of its Walks and criticism of its behaviour towards Roman Catholics. Most Orange Order Walks in Ireland are uncontroversial; Walks in the Republic of Ireland, notably in Rossnowlagh, County Donegal, require minimal policing and attract non-Orange Order members, including Roman Catholics, to watch. However at a few flashpoints, Walks have become highly controversial. Many of the bands hired by the Order for the parades openly advertise their association with loyalist paramilitary groups (responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Catholics) with flags and banners.
:
:The very first Orange parades were held in 1796, in different venues in County Armagh. The Northern Star newspaper reported that an Orangeman by the name of M'Murdie, died of stab wounds following clashes with the local yeomanry, in Aghalee. The next year, 1797, fourteen people were killed in disturbances during an Orange parade in Stewartstown, Tyrone.
:To Orange Order members, the "right" to Walk anywhere on the "Queen's highway" is of fundamental importance in upholding the principles of the "Glorious Revolution". To critics, their demand to walk their traditional routes, even some of those which have become Catholic areas, is seen as provocative, triumphalist and as asserting the supremacy of Protestants in Ulster.
JASpencer 22:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed Text from the Orange Order article 

message: From the Orange Order article.  Please incorporate this as you see fit:
:The main parade of the year is the annual "Twelfth" of July celebrations which commemorate the Battle Of The Boyne and the victory of King William Of Orange after whom the Order is named. The lodges are usually accompanied by various marching bands playing flutes, fifes, accordions, bagpipes and brass instruments. This parade often involves thousands of marchers at each of the many locations and draws crowds of spectators.
JASpencer 22:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What's wrong with it?  - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 11:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More removed text

message: In context, it should should not be forgotten that many of the United Irishmen--the driving force behind the 1798 rebellion--were Ulster Protestants, including much of the leadership.--PeadarMaguidhir 09:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  United Irishmen 

message: It is now time that we recognized the Ulster Protestant tradition as part of Ireland's cultural heritage. (After all, the 1916 Rising was commemorated in Dublin this year (2006). In this context, can anyone please tell me the origins of the Lambeg drums? Thank you!--PeadarMaguidhir 09:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lambeg Drums 

message: I disagree with the proposal to merge the article Orange Walk into this one. Although the festivities of the Twelfth do include many Orange Walks throughout the world, Orange Walks take place at other times of the year. I'm not even sure that the Orange Walk originated specifically for the Twelfth - wasn't it the Battle of Aughrim originally? --Mal 09:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Mal. The Twelfth is just one of many annual Orange marches, and not even always the biggest one. It would help if the Orange Walk page was expanded. --Helenalex 20:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I proposed the merger, but actually take no position on the question, due to a degree of ignorance on the topic.  A quick read seemed to indicate that the Orange Walk was an event that took place on The Twelfth, and so the merger made sense. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 15:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge? 

message: History
"Irish Protestants commemorated several events from the 17th century onwards, celebrating the survival and triumph of their community in the face of the Irish Rebellion of 1641 and the Williamite war in Ireland (1689-91)." This surly needs to be referenced? For example "Irish Protestants," is that all "Irish Protestants." ?
"The first such commemoration was the anniversary of the 1641 rebellion on October 23, when it was believed that a plot to massacre all Protestants in Ireland had been narrowly averted." Now is this right "first such commemoration was the anniversary of the 1641." Even then we had marches? "it was believed that a plot to massacre all Protestants in Ireland had been narrowly averted." This needs a reference. 
"The Twelfth parades of the early 19th century often led to riots and public disorder, so much so that the Orange Order and the Twelfth were suppressed in the 1830s and 40s." NOW THIS I can reference, if there is no objection?
Over all its not a bad article, but could be improved? --Domer48 12:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you feel you can make improvements, jump in. Despite the bunfight currently happening in the Orange Institution talk page, there generally don't seem to be many objections to statements which aren't obviously POV or controversial. --Helenalex 20:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needing sources 

message: Hello from Amsterdam, the Netherlands. This is a small note on a small point relating to calendars and the British tradition and that of continental time-keeping of the day. 
The switch from the Julian to the Gregorian calenders brought with it a change of ten days. 
In all of the archival letters I have discovered (transcribed and translated) here in Noordeinde Palace and in the States-Provincial archival-depositories, the letters written by the Dutch officers serving on the Ireland island were always dated twice on the header above page one, each date ten days apart. This is because the difference in British Isles time and Continental (the Julian and the Gregorian calenders) time was ten days. 
That implies that the 'bringing forward' of British Isles time to Continental time (the 'Inter gravissimas' calender of Pope Gregory XIII of 1582) brought with it an addition of ten days to the celebrations formerly held on July 1st, relating to the Battle of the Boyne that took place on that date. 
That this, in fact, coincided with the very Eve of Aughrim's July 12th (in the Julian, or old, calender), I believe, served only to magnify the actual event itself, for those that lived 'in those times', i.e. on the cusp of the transgression from old time to new, the Julian to the Georgian calenders, in one lifetime. Can you all imagine how tumultuous a changeover that would be today? We would all be dancing 12 hours out of kilter in 12 months time if that were visited upon us today!
In the previous decade I visited a place near to Aughrim, a town called Ball in a Sloe, of County Galway (aptly called the graafschaap of the Tribal People), when the local indigens were holding a livestock festival of great affair, and once there I offered a local radio station presenter an interview in connection with my research on this subject in in the Kingdom of the Netherlands. 
You may listen to a digital recording of that interview at the following location: |Ballinasloe Radio|Battle of Aughrim Series Pt.1| It is my endearing memory that they are most uninterested about it all, and would rather it all just went away - notwithstanding the many opportunities for tourism their little-leprechaun treasure represents.
It is my understanding, however, that the forces of Dublin Castle are altogether more interested in promoting the site at the other (rather inconsequential skirmish) at the Co Louth site: that is more proximite to those powers-that-be in the southern statelet, and which more often than not, approaches its many adversaries under the guise of the indigens' laws, which they (naturally enough) control completely.
All of the land surrounding the Wald Disney showpiece site at the Skirmish of the Boyne was, equally naturally, rezoned for the purposed of the multi-million investment of the Office of Public Works, under the command of the younger brother of the Leader of the Irish Republic, Patrick Bartholomew "Bertie" Ahern, TD, An Taoiseach, the Minister Noel Ahern TD (of the day).
Barentsz (talk) 23:52, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Origins, Aughrim & Calendars

message: The picture of a "bonfire preparation" is nothing more than a pile of rubble.  I'm no fan of The Twelfth, but many bonfires are quite well structured for safety and stability, and that should be acknowledged in the imagery chosen.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.246.209 (talk) 08:36, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bonfire picture 

message: The article mentions only the 12th (or its substitute Monday if falling on a weekend), but it appears to be a 2-day holiday, as most businesses are closed in N.Ireland on the 13th as well.  Unfortunately, other than the US Embassy website , where they list the holidays for the Consulate in Belfast, I can't find an official source for this.
Slowmover (talk) 14:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates of observance 

message: I thought there were riots in 2010, 2011 and 2012 because of loyalist parades for the Twelfth in Ardoyne. 2010: 55 PSNI wounded, 2011: 25 PSNI wounded, 2012: 30 PSNI wounded in 24 hours. Why does the article say the parades were peaceful in the last few years? --Nicholas Urquhart (talk) 17:13, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  2010, 2011, 2012 riots 

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thread_title:  External links modified