Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)/Archive 10

message: It is probably not the first time it has come up, but I disagree with rule 2 for the Monarchical Titles. In some countries, it is convention to give an ordinal to all monarchs, even when there has only been one holder of that name. Examples include Belgium and Spain. I would propose to include ordinals when writing about monarchs of those countries. Erwin 16:45, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: # Roman Emperors don't need the "of the Roman Empire" nor would Pericles be "of Athens" ? their names already indicate where they're from. The first line of the article can say when (and which empire) they ruled. Otherwise, we get stuck with Roman Emperor, Western R. E., Eastern R. E., Byzantine E., and (under the Carolingians) Roman Emperor (again).
That's fine for the Roman Emperors, but the Byzantine Emperors are kind of messily named. Some of them have "of the Byzantine Empire" or "of Byzantium" (the latter being especially odd), some of them have "Emperor XXX" (or Empress), and some of them have their family names as well. In this case, would the most common English name be the most common name used by Byzantinists? Most of these emperors don't come in normal English conversation :) Personally, I would refer to a lot of them by their nicknames or their family names, so "Alexius I Comnenus" rather than just Alexius I, or "Constantine Monomachus" (or Con. IX Monomachus) rather than just Constantine IX. 
So, I'm not exactly sure what should be done about the naming of their articles, but something definitely needs to be done, as there is very little in the way of a standard for them at the moment. Any suggestions? Adam Bishop 20:39, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monarchical Titles (Again) 

message: I'm not sure if if the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) page is checked often (apparently it isn't), so I thought I'd post this here as well...I've been looking around for an answer to this, but the closest I can find is: 
# Roman Emperors don't need the "of the Roman Empire" nor would Pericles be "of Athens" ? their names already indicate where they're from. The first line of the article can say when (and which empire) they ruled. Otherwise, we get stuck with Roman Emperor, Western R. E., Eastern R. E., Byzantine E., and (under the Carolingians) Roman Emperor (again).
That's fine for the Roman Emperors, but the Byzantine Emperors are kind of messily named. Some of them have "of the Byzantine Empire" or "of Byzantium" (the latter being especially odd), some of them have "Emperor XXX" (or Empress), and some of them have their family names as well. In this case, would the most common English name be the most common name used by Byzantinists? Most of these emperors don't come in normal English conversation :) Personally, I would refer to a lot of them by their nicknames or their family names, so "Alexius I Comnenus" rather than just Alexius I, or "Constantine Monomachus" (or Con. IX Monomachus) rather than just Constantine IX. 
So, I'm not exactly sure what should be done about the naming of their articles, but something definitely needs to be done, as there is very little in the way of a standard for them at the moment. Any suggestions? Adam Bishop 22:21, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh, Byzantine naming for Byzantines seems entirely appropriate!  It has been worked over by various people in the past - talk pages and history might tell you some of the players.  They're halfway between European royalty, for which "of X" is the accepted standard, and Romans, which don't do it, but lots of the names are have high ambiguity, so review all of them before starting to tinker and then finding out the status quo was that way for a reason. :-) Stan 00:06, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of them wouldn't be ambiguous with any other world leader, of course...unless someone writes about the emperors of Trebizond, but I fixed those links so they will say "X of Trebizond." So I suppose "Alexius I", etc, is fine according to naming conventions, it just feels like they should all have "X, Byzantine Emperor" or something, if some of them do. Adam Bishop 14:59, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming conventions

message: A grand duke is a kind of monarch, right? Existing articles for grand dukes and duchesses seem split on article titling.  Presumably princes like Rainier III of Monaco are agreed to get the monarchical treatment, what about dukes and smaller nobility that are/were absolute rulers of their domains? Stan 18:16, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Any sovereign ruler should count as a monarch.  In general a Duke like, say, the duke of Brunswick, was considered higher (and had a higher style) than a sovereign prince like those of Monaco or Liechtenstein.  As far as Grand Dukes, most are monarchs (the Grand duke of Luxembourg, the Grand duke of Hesse and the Rhine, and so forth).  Members of the Russian Imperial house, though, obviously are not. john 19:44, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is a monarch?