Talk:Lviv pogroms (1941)

message: Very important article but inter alia is using as part of global anti-Ukrainian propaganda, organized by the Kremlin, where Wikipedia is part of global informational war ishttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian information war against Ukrainehttps://gizmodo.com/wikipedia-russia-ukraine-propaganda-suspicious-edits-1849673060.
When the article was frozen (Extended protected)? For sure before invasion of Russia into Ukraine, so everybody who is interesting in the "nazi/nationalism problem in Ukraine" can see what he/she heard on international (belongs to Russia state) medias.
First paragraph of the article, which for sure mostly readable, argue that the "pogroms were ignored or obfuscated in Ukrainian historical memory", it is very controversial statement and directly condemns Ukraine as a state that hides the memory of the Holocaust, thereby being to one degree or another the (neo)Nazi, as official Russian propaganda claimshttps://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/putin-claims-denazification-justify-russias-attack-ukraine-experts-say-rcna17537.
Very quick search about this problem (historian memory) shows us plenty of articles online, in papers and magazines, just several examples: at Istorychna Pravdahttps://www.istpravda.com.ua/research/2012/12/20/93550/, polemical article about previous onehttps://shron1.chtyvo.org.ua/Riabenko_Serhii/Slidamy_Lvivskoho_pohromu_Dzhona-Pola_Khymky.pdf, Lviv Interactive encyclopediahttps://lia.lvivcenter.org/en/events/pogrom/, in Ukrainа moderna magazinewww.academia.edu/36719660/ОУН_б_німці_та_антиєврейське_насильство_в_Галичині_влітку_1941_року. Moreover there are several monuments and memorials in memory of holocaust in Lviv https://ujew.com.ua/objects/lvovskaya-oblast/lvov/pamyatnik-zhertvam-l-vovskogo-getto5https://ujew.com.ua/objects/lvovskaya-oblast/lvov/mesto-yanovskogo-konclagerya9https://heritageandmemorystudies.humanities.uva.nl/index.php/1718-2/research-projects-lviv/golden-rose-synagogue/. 
So in conclusion, this article has controversial statements which should be moderated to more neutral. 
DUKE (talk) 10:06, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: This sentence is the summary of the section Manipulation of historical memory which is well-sourced. The existence of articles which discuss this does not refute it. If you want to add something concrete - for example the erection of monuments and memorial - then please do it. Alaexis¿question? 11:14, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Anti-Ukrainian propaganda

message: Russian sources are quite specific with regard to the pogroms. The Russian historian Sergei Chuguyev (whom I understand was a former KGB archivist) wrote: "That on June 30 in Lviv the German administration started mass repressions. The commander of the "Einzatzgruppen C" Dr. Rasch had incriminated the death of those incarcerated in the Lviv jails to the "Jews from the NKVD", which became the spark for the terror against the Jews and Poles in Lviv. In the bloody murder of the Jews the Einsatzgruppen under the command of brigadeerfuhrer SS Karl Eberhard Schenhardt took prominence. The sections of this group under the command of H. Kruger and W. Kutshman on July 4 murdered 23 Polish professors and their families. On July 11, 2 more were killed, and later the former prime-minister of Poland, professor Bartel. In the Autumn of 1941 a ghetto was formed in Lviv"* RUSSIAN:Chuyev, Sergei Ukrainskyj Legion  - Moskva, 2006 p. 180.
Also, the initial number of 4,000 deaths was originally the number ascribed to the Ukrainian and Polish Political prisoners who were killed in their cells by the Soviets during their withdrawal. This particular number seems to have wandered over to the anti-jewish pogroms. What the mechanism was for this is not clear.
The number of Jewish deaths that was quoted in an article I recently read from the Nuremberg trials (this is just off the top of my head was I think) was more like 30,000 which is considerably more than 4,000, although I do also remember that there was a not regarding the fact that these numbers could have been inaccurate. One of the reasons that Babi Yar did not become a major topic during Nuremberg was because the numbers for Babi Yar were at that time so small in comparisonto Lviv and Kharkiv.
An international commission was set up at The Hague in the Netherlands in 1958 to carry out independent investigations initially into Federal Minister Oberländer but also it touched on the Nachtigall battalion which he commanded. The members were four former anti-Hitler activists, Norwegian lawyer Hans Cappelen, former Danish foreign minister and president of the Danish parliament Ole Bjørn Kraft, Dutch socialist Karel van Staal, Belgian law professor Flor Peeters, and Swiss jurist and member of parliament Kurt Scoch.  Following its interrogation of a number of Ukrainian witnesses between November 1959 and March 1960, the commission concluded: "After four months of inquiries and the evaluation of 232 statements by witnesses from all circles involved, it can be established that the accusations against the Battalion Nachtigall and against the then Lieutenant and currently Federal Minister Oberländer have no foundation in fact.http://www.alfreddezayas.com/Chapbooks/Lembergmassacre.shtml"
A valuable source of a detailed study of archival documents of this period are in de Zayas book "The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945"  University of Nebraska Press, Rockport, Maine, 2000 edition  The Lviv Massacre. Sections regarding the investigation of the Lviv attrocities are available online[].
One should keep in mind that in the fall of 1959 the Soviet press mounted a major disinformation campaign against the then minister in the West German Adenauer cabinet, Theodor Oberländer, who at the time was commander of the Nachtigall Battalion made up of a couple of hundred Ukrainian volunteers. The Soviets accused him and the Ukrainian division of participating in the SS murders in Lviv.  On 5 September 1959 the "Radianska Ukraina" newspaper wrote: "Eighteen years ago the fascists committed a horrendous crime in Lviv in the night of 29 - 30 June 1941.  The Hitlerites arrested on the basis of prepared lists hundreds of Communists, Communist youth, and non-party members and murdered them in brutal fashion in the courtyard of the Samarstinov Prison."  These accusations were picked up by the Western press and eventually led to Oberländer's resignation.  The investigation by the district attorney's office in Bonn, however, completely cleared Oberländer The Lviv Massacre. The accusations of Oberlander and the Nachtigall Battalion keep resurfacing in Western sources however. (This is based on the fact that for a short time he was a former assistant to the infamous Gauleiter Erich Koch and also because of his then political alliances to far-right movements). 
This year in Ukraine the government has honoured Roman Shukhevych who was the Ukrainian Commander of the Nachtigall Battalion. Some sources in Ukraine (particularly Eastern Ukraine and the areas in Russia with significant Ukrainian populations) are once again making accusations of involvement in anti-jewish pogroms. I'm sure there will be much more information during the course of the year. Bandurist 21:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Russian sources

message: As I read through more and more sources and books from Russian, Ukrainian, Polish and Jewish sources one begins to get a feeling with regard to the various POV's that are out there. 
Despite the fact that the Russian accounts are probably the most detailed, I have noticed numerous inaccuracies in the Russian sources. Incorrect names, dates that do not fall within the parameters of particular actions. Material which was also avoided and not mentioned. The ascribing of Soviet atrocities to others. Soviet scholarship had many of these holes, however, although current Russian Scholarship seems to be better it still continues in that particular vein.
Polish sources from the 60's seem to have been fed from Russian sources and mirror what was stated or written in Russia at the time. Many of these works are being brought up in recent times. Tracing where they got there information from is interesting.
Jewish sources often quote Polish sources, particularly from the 60's which in turn were often restatements of Soviet materials.
Soviet Ukrainian materials seem the least reliable. Emigre Ukrainian materials avoid the subject almost completely, and the subject regarding Ukrainian collaboration with the Germans is if not avoided, then dealt with extremely sparsely, however, there is enough there to check the more detailed Russian accounts. Bandurist (talk) 16:55, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Re sources

message: The paragraph below has been removed because of lack of documentation.  Anyone having the citation for the numbers is welcome to restore the substance of the paragraph.  
:The number of actual Jewish deaths which was quoted in an article I recently read about the Nuremberg trials (this is just off the top of my head was I think) was more like 30,000.
One should also note the substantial similarity between this Wikipedia article and the essay at http://alfreddezayas.com/Chapbooks/Lembergmassacre.shtml.
Richard David Ramsey 19:48, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced paragraph 

message: I have problems with the following:
vThe Lviv pogroms was a massacre of  Jews living in and near the city of Lviv in the Nazi-occupied Ukraine) that took place in July 1941 during World War II. 
The Nazi's entered Lviv on July 30 at 4.30 am.
The pogroms could not start any earlier. 
Also this paragraph
During the four-week pogrom from the end of June to early July 1941, nearly 4,000 Jews were murdered. On July 25, 1941, a second pogrom, called "Petliura Days" after Symon Petliura, was organized; nearly 2,000 more Jews were killed in Lviv, mostly shot in groups by civilian collaborators after being marched to the Jewish cemetery or to Lunecki prison. 
If Lviv was occupied on July 30 a four week pogrom could not take place from the end of June to early July.
Same applies to the second pogrom of July 25. If the German forces lead by the Nachtigall Battalion entered Lviv on July 30. Something is wrong with the source. Bandurist (talk) 02:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems

message: "According to Yevgen Nakonechny the main perpetrators of this pogrom were the local declassee Poles" - This statement is a source degrades, I have not heard of any sources indicating Poles as perpetrators of the pogrom--Paweł5586 (talk) 14:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Nakonechny is a major historian, and a considerable moral authority. You don't have to like him, but his statement is notable.--Galassi (talk) 15:22, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Here one can read about this "moral authority":  With respect to the author’s attempts to blame the Lviv pogrom on Polish lumpen elements (shumovynnia), “this again is a myth in which the author wants to believe” (Kovba, Review 140). GlaubePL (talk) 22:55, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Sorry if you use him I am going to cite Poliszczuk, Prus, Korman. Prus is a Polish historian too. Nakonenechny and Wiatrowycz are OUN supporters.--Paweł5586 (talk) 07:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree with GlaubePL and Pawel here, with respect to Nakonechny, based on Himka's article. Nakonechny may be cited but only as a represdentative of the Ukrainan nationalist point of view; his opinions shouldn't be presented as neutral ones. Adding Prus or Poliszczuk to "balance" Nakonechny is not the correct approach: two wrongs don't make a right.Faustian (talk) 13:54, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

text:  Having read Nakonechny's books, I do not see him as a representative of the Ukrainian Nationalist point of view. Ukrainian view yes, but not a nationalist one. In fact in some of his statements he is very critical of Ukrainian nationalist POV.
Ivan444 (talk) 19:07, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't read his work but Himka (a reliable source) is rather objective and he is very very negative about him, as a Ukrainian nationalist.Faustian (talk) 22:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

text:  He was a member of OUN. GlaubePL (talk) 21:22, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. Do you have a link?Faustian (talk) 22:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Take a look at source added by Glaube - At the age of 17 he was arrested for belongingto a youth group of the OUN.--Paweł5586 (talk) 08:32, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Youthful allegiance isn't the same as lifetime commitment/membership. I know a part-Polish countess who as a fifteen year old joined the OUN, just to fight Bolsheviks, and died while doing so.Faustian (talk) 16:31, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Prof. Himka calls him OUN's admirer , page 3, footnote 17. GlaubePL (talk) 13:18, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not the same. That being said, I'm convinced that he is not a reliable source.Faustian (talk) 16:29, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Thanks. Generally unrelated, but FYI Yushchenko's pro-Bandera and pro-OUN activities are now widely considered in Ukraine to have been part of his collusion with Yanukovich to keep Tymoshenko from getting elected: .Faustian (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Biased source

message: I am proposing that as a curtesy to other editors, if a Polish, Ukrainian, or Russian language article is used, at bare minimum it should be one that is searchable on the internet and/or if it is a book - and is in fact a RS - it should be one that does not direct to blank hit on Google, Amazon (or another major book seller). The burdon of proof that a source is a RS is on the editor, so please make it easy for us to research the source of your information. 
For instance, FN 1 of this article seems to be a Polish work but based on initial searches on Google, Amazon, Jastor, other English sources, etc. it is seemingly non-existent except as it links to this article as FN 1, circular reasoning I think. Can the editor please provide either a better source or some other link so that we can confirm FN 1 and its information?  Gmw112252 (talk) 13:45, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It was given in transliteration without enough details: it is probably in Ukrainian Євген Наконечний «Шоа у Львові» .--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 03:44, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-English Sources  

message: This is unsourced inflammatory NNPOV and will be deleted.--Galassi (talk) 15:22, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: So, where does it say "common criminals"?--Galassi (talk) 15:55, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

text: The victim lists are available, and their ethnic composition has all the ethnic groups, with approximately 1 Jewish name per 25-30 Ukrainians. As too "common criminals" - no source mentions that. You might have provide a scan of the relevant paragraph. The of the massacred were political arrestees.--Galassi (talk) 16:23, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: "Common Criminals"

message: In trying to edit this article for clarity and acuracy (starting today with the introductory paragraph) I came to the conclusion - through my research - that this article as it stands to is "highly," perhaps irreparably flawed from the gate. And this is most likely the cause for others editors' concern, reverts (one of which I was forced to make today as unsourced or incorrectly sourced), and confusion of the subject which has already led to a separate controversy paragraph and WP controversy page on the subject.
I believe that this problem has come about because of the article's overly ambitious attempt to lump together two inherently conflicted concepts - in the format of historical events, i.e. The Prison Massacre and the subsequent Prison Aktion - in what essentially is an article about three separate components of the Shoah (Holocaust) in Lviv (Lemberg/Lwow at the time) and a relatively important event in Ukrainian history during World War II, the Prison Massacre. I believe each is a very broad subject in itself:
1. The Prison Massacre of 1941
2. The Prison Aktion Pogrom against the Jews of Lviv 
3. The Pogrom widely covered by Jewish historians and witnesses known as "Petlura Days"  
The problem I see is that the NPOV is lost when these topics are presented here as one continuous pogrom. What has happened here is that sources from Ukrainian historians have been jockeyed against a library of Jewish RS on the Holocaust. The result is a mish-mosh and blurring of the history because the events above - especially #1 are highly disputed, and to a lesser extent, #2. 
Ukrainian Pogrom. The article as it stands also makes it seem as if the Prison Massacre against the inmates  was a "pogrom" (or part of one, actually #2 above) without citing RS that call it a "pogrom" (I have found none) in conflict with the facts, and the generally accepted definition of the term pogrom. As to whether the editors are trying to say it was a "pogrom," or are trying to characterize it as one by "free-riding" RS about the  pogrom(s) against Jews (in which the victims of the massacre are the perpetrators of the pogroms). At minimum it's just confusing.
I propose that this article be divided into three separate articles that link to each other where relevant, and I think this *might* make it easier to resolve the problem of its non-NPOV and historical inaccuracies.
I further would like to suggest that since most of the research on this subject refers to the name of the city as Lwow, L'vov, Lvov, or Lemberg GG, as it was called at the time in 1941 and for years thereafter, through to the creation of an independent Ukraine in 1991, that a paragraph be devoted to this subject so as not to confuse the reader and/or some kind of disambiguation page... or however it's done on WP. Comments? Suggestions?  Gmw112252 (talk) 15:38, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with this Article (Revisited) 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The quote by prof. Norman Davies ("in the [Lviv] personnel of the Soviet security police at the time, the high percentage of Jews was striking.") doesn't appear to address Lviv specifically, but is instead referring to all of "eastern Poland in 1939–1941."
Please review page 32 in the source. In its current version, the text seems to insinuate Lviv was exceptional. --ארינמל (talk) 03:29, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should omit Lviv from the current quote. This contextualizing takes too much liberty. That, or quote him on page 34 instead --ארינמל (talk) 03:07, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Misquotation?

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: How were the perpetrators identified as Ukrainian nationalists? All of them showed their Ukrainian passport? Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 22:12, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ukrainian nationalists 

message: Re this revert, and this additional source Norman Davis is a rather polemic source, who has alleged Jewish historians have conspired against him personally, and whose views on Jews are not mainstream, attributing an allegation of Judeo-Bolshevism with a weasly "as X observed" (as opposed to a proper attribution of this claim) and sources to a WP:SPS and another book - is UNDUE - this is the view of a very small minority in the field, and should not be represented in our article - this is WP:CHERRYPICKING from the extreme, and seeing this this is echoed by the WP:QS WP:SPS by Mark Paul rather indicates this is highly POV. Icewhiz (talk) 10:49, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: We have to be really careful here. The ethnicity of NKVD officers may be relevant, if it was used by Nazis and their collaborators to incite the local population against local Jews. But we need a source that makes this link and not just states that there was a lot of Jewish NKVD officers. The Piotrowski link  doesn't work, is there an active link, User:GizzyCatBella? Alaexis¿question? 11:32, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:   The link above is to WP:QS WP:SPS by Mark Paul, held in a few web locations), which is most certainly not an appropriate source for anything contentious, see RSN discussion on Paul.Icewhiz (talk) 14:09, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not like there is something very wrong with M. Paul but the above is actually referenced to T.Piotrowski not Paul  GizzyCatBella (talk) 19:01, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

text: The report drafted by Judge Möller singled out the Jews as responsible for the Soviet atrocities in accordance with the Nazi theory of Judeo-Bolshevism,[11] even though Polish Jews had nothing to do with the NKVD killings.[12] As observed by British-Polish historian Prof. Norman Davies: "in the [Lviv] personnel of the Soviet security police at the time, the high percentage of Jews was striking."[13][14]
What did the pogrom have to do with the ethnic composition of NKVD officers? It's not like the Germans were planning to treat Jews nicely. This reads as it was their own damn fault and is inappropriate. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:25, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

text: There references are still not satisfactory. Also a statement attributed to Davies is supported by references to Piotrowski (without a page number to verify it) and Paul. To reiterate, the source needs to make a connection between the ethnicity of NKVD personnel and these pogroms. Alaexis¿question? 16:32, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

text: Found where Paul quotes Davies. I think we need a reference to the original given abovementioned problems with Paul's reliability (he calls Jews the victims of choice, btw). Alaexis¿question? 16:45, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mark Paul is a highly questionable source (and we have seen, IIRC, misquotes in Paul and well as out of context use). Davies on the other hand is a historian, but he represents ine edge of the range of views on Jews in (greate) Poland, and does not represent the mainstream in thos regard..Icewhiz (talk) 17:30, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the passage; preserving here by providing this link. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:16, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Norman Davis 

message: I found juxtaposition unfortunate, although perhaps unintended:
::The report drafted by Judge Möller singled out the Jews as responsible for the Soviet atrocities in accordance with the Nazi theory of Judeo-Bolshevism,[11] even though Polish Jews had nothing to do with the NKVD killings.[12] As observed by British-Polish historian Prof. Norman Davies: "in the [Lviv] personnel of the Soviet security police at the time, the high percentage of Jews was striking."[13][14]
What did the pogrom have to do with the ethnic composition of NKVD officers? It's not like the Germans were planning to treat Jews nicely. This reads as it was their own damn fault and is inappropriate. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:25, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There references are still not satisfactory. Also a statement attributed to Davies is supported by references to Piotrowski (without a page number to verify it) and Paul. To reiterate, the source needs to make a connection between the ethnicity of NKVD personnel and these pogroms. Alaexis¿question? 16:32, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

text: Found where Paul quotes Davies. I think we need a reference to the original given abovementioned problems with Paul's reliability (he calls Jews the victims of choice, btw). Alaexis¿question? 16:45, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mark Paul is a highly questionable source (and we have seen, IIRC, misquotes in Paul and well as out of context use). Davies on the other hand is a historian, but he represents ine edge of the range of views on Jews in (greate) Poland, and does not represent the mainstream in thos regard..Icewhiz (talk) 17:30, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the passage; preserving here by providing this link. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:16, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Juxtaposition 

message: Seems there was a pogrom in 1914. I wonder if it is notable for a stand-alone article? This article's titles suggests it discusses all pogroms, which is incorrect, it should be moved to Lviv pogroms (1941) and Lviv pogroms should be a disambig (it seems being a Jew in Lviv in early 20th century was not a good place...). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:33, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: We have Lwów pogrom (1918). The 1914 one should probably go to Lwów pogrom (1914) if we're being consistent regarding naming. I think. Someone would have to write it up though.Icewhiz (talk) 19:35, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Done, see Lwów pogrom (1914). I've also moved this article to a less ambigious title. TBH, Lviv pogroms should redirect to Lviv pogrom disambig, but I am not sure if we have an automated tool to change the redirects... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:58, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  1914 pogrom and the name of this article 

message: *From the lead  German commandos, local crowds and Ukrainian nationalists 
*Himka  "The Lviv Pogrom of 1941: The Germans, Ukrainian Nationalists, and the Carnival Crowd" Xx236 (talk) 09:46, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Himka doesn't know, let's correct him 

message: Preserving here by providing this link. There are two sets of issues:
#The material in the first para appears to conflate the anti-Jewish actions by EG C with the Massacre of Lwów professors; some sources are unreliable, such as http://www.lwow.com.pl/albert/albert-pl.html;
#The second para is largely about Nachtigall Battalion which the passage seems to equate to EG C. The battalion was part of the Wehrmacht, and the recent research, i.e. Himka, suggests that the unit as a whole did not take an organised part in the pogrom. 
This section needs to be written from scratch. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:31, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  December 2019 edits 

message: If the photographs are iconic, why do we have only one (:File:Lviv pogrom (June - July 1941).jpg)? We should link the others from external links, and preferably upload them to Commons, where a dedicated category should be created. They should be PD, just like the one already uploaded and present here. PS. Would be good to do this before this is on main page (Template:Did you know nominations/Lviv pogroms (1941)...). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:33, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  More photographs needed (plus Commons category etc) 

message: I was going to redirect Eastern Poland to Kresy, due to the Lviv pogroms taking place in the region. Dilljl248 (talk) 06:43, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Closing as you don't appear to be requesting an edit to this page. There is no reason to turn Eastern Poland into a redirect. – Thjarkur (talk) 17:38, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 July 2020 

message: I have been reading through various Wikipedia articles on anti Jewish violence among Ukrainian nationalists during WW2 and it seems certain articles are contradictory. In this article it seems to discredit the 2008 SBU released documents while this article seems to take them as fact. Which case is the correct answer? 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army 24.200.116.208 (talk) 02:40, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflict with other article on subject