Talk:John McLoughlin

message: I've split the WTC survivor John McLoughlin off of this page and into its own entry. Billdorr 07:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: WTC survivor

message: What is it that makes this man "Canadian-American"? If he was born and raised in Canada how is he American?
Well, according to the article, he became an American citizen in 1849 - I would think that would make him a 'Canadian-American'
:McLoughlin had never resided in Canada and until his naturalization as a US citizen in 1849 he was a British Subject like most HBC employees (incl most Metis/aboriginal ones, and some Kanakas).  Canada in 1849 also meant only Ontario and Quebec.Skookum1 23:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article says he was born in Quebec, and he worked at Fort William in Ontario (I assume he lived there too). And that is according to a source from Canada. So I think that would qualify for the Canadian part, eh? Aboutmovies 04:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just for the record, Fort William was in the pays d'en haut, "the upper country" above Canada, i.e. westward up the Great Lakes drainage.  It only became part of Ontario when that province wrastled a chunk of the North-west Ter; this was long after McLoughlin's reign over the Columbia District, or his naturalization as an American.  Canada was from Sault Ste Marie east and south; Fort William wasn't a part of the Colony, but even in the days of New France had not been part of le canada, but another country west of it, again, le pays d'en haut (my Fr is rusty that might be le pays en haut); Fort William was the "port"/clearinghouse/warehouse for the voyageur network westward from there; those who ferried between Fort William and Canada - Montreal - were the courier du bois, the voyageurs were the guys who ranged up the Rainy River to Lake of the Woods and across the Prairies; I used to think they all meant the same thing - courieur du bois, voyageurs, and gens de pays d'en haut - but apparently there's a distinction; think I got this from a CBC radio show once.Skookum1 08:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, actually, I just looked over a few historical maps and the Thunder Bay area (formerly Fort William-Prince Arthur) was within the Province of Canada and its predecessors; but not much west of it, i.e. not Kenora/Lake of the Woods.  I'm going to have to compare the maps I've found with HBC/Rupert's Land maps, and also this has reminded me there's a need for an article about the Rat Portage War, which some Canadian historians politely tag the Rat Portage Dispute, in which competing authorites of Ontario and Manitoba warred over Kenora; but the boundary at stake was all the way to Nipigon, and as in Riel's time it was expected that the Lakehead was part of teh North-West; but maybe officially, on paper, it was supposed to be in the charter of Canada as set up by the British after taking New France; I'll compare the New France maps too for the hell of it.Skookum1 08:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Suffice to say that life in Fort William was like nothing in Canada below the Lakes, even if it may officially have been in the colony (rather than in Rupert's Land); its culture was part of the West, and of a fur trade settlement (one of the wildest...the annual bash was infamous), and not similar in the slightest to the settlement farming and urban way of life in the Canadas proper (the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence Lowland).  Living there did not make him an Ontarian by identity, anything but esp[ecially for the archetypes that word conjures to a Canadian; his identity was that of the fur trade life.Skookum1 09:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting and all, but for better or worse people all clasified by their countries for their nationality, not so much their occupation. G. Vancouver was a British subject and as such is British, not sailor or explorer or navy employee for his nationality. Again, McLoughlin was born in Canada, lived there, and since he later lived in the US and became a citizen he is Canadian-American. If you want you might try the angle that Canada didn't exist until 1867/1931, but then a whole lot of things on Wikipedia would need to be updated. Life in the U.S. where he lived would not have been much like life on the East Coast, but like your arguement it is completely irrelevant as to his nationality, which again is Canadian-American. Aboutmovies 07:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Canadian-american?

message: Redlinked here because he needs an article, and there may be more on him in sources on his father that others here are more familiar with (meaning I don't have time, but know he should have an article).  Brought to my attention again because of the account of his party's journey up the Okanagan Trail in John Hopper's Indian Wars of the Pacific Northwest, which I've quoted a passage from on my sandbox page in relation to the Yakima War article/discussion.Skookum1 08:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That was where one of the ambuscades with the natives happened; here is a short historylink.org essay on it, though there's lots more on him.  If someone could come up with his birthdates and so on I can search out more material.....maybe.Skookum1 (talk) 21:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[David McLoughlin]]

message: :[Dr. John McLoughlin, baptised Jean-Baptist McLoughlin, (October 19, 1784 – September 3, 1857), the "Father of Oregon", was a fur trader and early settler in the Oregon Country in the Pacific Northwest. In the late 1840s his general store in Oregon City was famous as the last stop on the Oregon Trail.
I just got up so don't feel like trying to change/add stuff, not with any reliable cogency anyway, but just scanning over this struck me - surely his store in Oregon City isn't hte most prominent thing about him, for pity's sake.  Fort Vancouver was a "general store" too, and also at the end of the Oregon Trail; the HBC and his role in it should be in place of his little retail outlet in Oregon City; although in relation to another article involving the shared history of people and places in the Pacific Northwest, this is an example of USPOV-ism; that what's important to American must be important to others, and that what's not important to American history doesn't matter.  I know it's not intentional, but it is typical.  I'm going to add mention of his position as chief Factor in the HBC at Fort VAncover, and will leave that Oregon city store mention in for now; but I think it should be downplayed as actually incidental to his historical role, more like the retirement job post-annexation.Skookum1 17:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

message: :At the time, the wives of many Hudson's Bay field employees were Native Americans, including McLoughlin's wife Marguerite. She was the daughter of a Native American woman
I'd have edited this directly with her specific "nationality" - Cree or Ojibwa, I think, but she wasn't from US territories and is from a Canadian-side indigenous people, for whom the correct modern usage is "First Nations" or "First Nations person", although the preferred and emerging use is to be specific as to which nation and leave "whitemen's terminology" out of it.  Anyway, would have changed the phrasing but it's also true that many of the Fort employees' wives were Chinookan or from another Oregon-area people; it would be better to have "indigenous" when referring to any cross-border grouping, as is the case with this; but Marguerite's origins are specifically known....just not by me; if someone knows which people she's from please specify it.  Worth noting here that a lot of the indigenous employees of the Fort were Iroquoian, when not Metis.....Skookum1 (talk) 20:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Marguerite was First Nations, not Native American

message: I removed the area-figure that was given, which is irrelevant to his bio and also inaccurate; it apparently is a measure of the Oregon Country, but the Columbia District was not the same; it extended only to the Thompson River on the inland side (and actually ended at the Okanagan-Thompson/Shuswap divide, it was only because Fort Kamloops was administered from Ft Vancouver that it was considered part of teh Columbia Department (not the District, the meaning is slightly different).  Also, the Columbia Department's operations extended well past 54-40, and its formal territory of operations, as recognized by the Russian government, went to 56-30 (the mouth of the Stikine) and also included the outlier post of Fort Taku (Durham) at the mouth of the Taku.  The Columbia District was not teh same thing as teh Oregon Country; it's kind of like Israel and Paletine occupying the same space but being different entities...I can't think of a better phrasing for "roughly parallel" but maybe there is one; it's time to end this ocnfusion, and not make it further....Skookum1 (talk) 14:12, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Columbia District/Dept vs Oregon Country

message: I'm curious what the source of the claim that he mastered several Indian languages is.  It's a safe assumption that he had familiarity with the local trade jargon wherever he worked for any given number of years, but mastery of the language is something I'd like to find a source for, having not found any mention of his linguistic abilities beyond being literate in French and English.
The section on David McLoughlin contains serious errors.  He was a full brother of John McLoughlin Jr., not a half-brother.  It's also a stretch to say that he grew up embittered over his brother's death, as David was born in 1821, and John Jr. died in 1842, making David a grown man of 21 years already. He lived well past 1858, he died in 1903 in his home in Porthill, Idaho.  I'm looking at a photo of him right now, taken in 1901 when he was brought to Portland, OR, to give a speech.  I don't have any direct evidence of his attitude toward the native population, but he married the daughter of a Kootenai chief, according to The McLoughlin Empire and It's Rulers, (Burt Brown Barker, 1959).  Much of this is also referenced in Outpost, John McLoughlin And the Far Northwest (Dorothy Nafus Morrison, 1999).  I've deleted those several sentences, as anything untrue needs to be removed, and without the parts that are untrue, the remainder is irrelevent to John McLoughlin's legacy, which is the section the material was written in. Nithos (talk) 19:51, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I was writing from memory only so maybe got the half-brother thing wrong by confusing half-breed etc; one of his offspring was a half-brother to the others, no?  As for the Indian-hater/hunter thing I got taht from the chapter on the Okanagan Trail in McGowan's War by Donald J. Hauka, which is fully sourced and you'll find reference/publ. for on the linked titled-article; my choice of wording, again writing from (fuzzy) memory, that not his upbringing but his experience as a young adult about his brother's death was - as Hauka says, from one of his sources - the reason he was not as native-friendly as his marriage to a Ktunaxa might indicate; his brother's murderer, Urbain Heroux, wasn't even fully native, and was Ojibwa or Cree or ?? on his native side, not a local native, and likewise his Tlingit allies were unrealted to the native peoples of the Columbia/Okanagan.  I don't have the McGowan's War book anymore, but it's worth a read if you're into regional history as your other citations seem to indicate; I have Hauka's email, I'll try and get it together to write him and ask if he remembers waht his source for that was.  All I know is that that's what his book says, and that he was one of the guards in the Reinhardt Party (Reinhardt?  Reichert?) on the Okanagan Trail.  As for "legacy" I was just trying to give a short account of the lives/deaths of his sons....on the great uncle matter, that wasn't my doing, but it was traditional in many native societies for young men to be raised by maternal uncles; not sure if taht was the case here, or if it was one of McLoughlin's uncles, that's being talked about....also re the languages this I've heard before, though my guess is it's languages like Cree and Iroquoian that are being talked about, not the complex and difficult Salishan languages or Sahaptian etc....writings by Stephen Hume, a regular columnists on historical subjects for the Vancouver Sun, have a lot of material on him and other fur company men; "recently" (some time in the last few years) there was a series on th Metis/native wives and had a lot of bio ifnormation on the men.....Skookum1 (talk) 17:02, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if these sources are fully reliable (although one is from the US federal government), but here are two that mention mastery of languages: John McLoughlin, "Architect of the Capitol" website, which says, "There [Fort William] he became a trader and mastered the Indian languages." JOHN McLOUGHLIN, American Heritage Magazine, which says, "He remained proud of the title of physician for the rest of his life, but in truth he was a good deal more successful as a trader. The Indians dealt readily with him, impressed by his quick mastery of their languages..." (who "the Indians" were is not clear, but it reads as if wherever McLoughlin went his skill with language impressed "the Indians"). I found other sources saying basically the same thing, but with even less detail. Due to the lack of detail in these sources, I am just posting here instead of editing the main page. Pfly (talk) 06:02, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Question of sources

message: Was the daughter of Jean Etienne Wadin, one of my 5 g grandfathers and one of the 4 founding partners of the North West Company. He was a Swiss Huguenot, and in the French army in Quebec in the Seven Years (French and Indian) War. He was murdered by Peter Pond in Lac L'Orange Saskatchewan. Marguerite had a sister called Veronique, who married Rev. John Bethune, first Presbyterian minister in Lower then Upper Canada and ancestor of quite a distinguished brood.96.54.194.38 (talk) 07:52, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  John's Wife 

message: I have removed the following from the "Childhood" section of the article:
*  Irish (his grandfather came from Sharagore (Desertegny) in the Inishowen peninsula of County Donegal), 
and 
*  However, as the surname McLoughlin is of Irish origin originating in Donegal it's likely his Scottish ancestors may have originally been of Irish extraction.The Master Book of Irish Surnames: Locations, Ethnic Origins, Variant Spellings & Sources by Michael C. O'Laughlin 
The above is lacking a reliable source to support the statement.  The listed sources in the above do not meet WP:RS and one of them is deadlink with no archive copy.  I have read through both of the cited sources that supports the remainder of the section and neither of them make any mention or reference to him being any part Irish.
He may very well be of Irish descent, but if this information is to be restored to the article it will require a reliable source that directly supports that Dr. John McLoughlin was of Irish descent.  It is not good enough that his last name is similar, being spelled differently, to a common Irish surname.  As it stands, even if the above is completely true, it is original research and needs published properly after having been reviewed by an editorial or peer process to be reliable.---> Darryl.P.Pike (talk) 04:41, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed Content - Irish Heritage