Talk:List of convicted war criminals

message: Where is the citation that Hirohito was ever convicted of a war crime?????  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.124.149.116 (talk) 00:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: MSTCrow 06:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hirohito 

message: As Slobo had not actually been convicted as a war criminal at the time of his death, should be actually be classified as a war criminal, or only an alleged/accused one?
:MSTCrow 06:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slobo 

message: Frankly, I think this list is suspect.  Is there no presumption of innocence for an indicted war criminal?  If there is, in fact, a presumption of innocence, then only those convicted of war crimes may be listed here.  Furtheremore, I do not think that all of these people have even been indicted for war crimes.  I fail to see how an unindicted, untried, and unconvicted person can be labelled a war criminal, a legal term of art, with a sufficient degree of certainty to include in an encyclopedia.  I personally think this list could do with a listing on AfD, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise before actually taking it there if someone would care to respond to this message sometime in the next few days. Indrian 16:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition of War Criminal

message: I received a message from Wikipedia (from "Jamott") saying that I had vandalised the "List of War Criminals" page by adding the names of all the postwar U.S. Presidents, which is factually correct when using the website's definition of a war crime.
Does Wikipedia have a policy regarding war crimes when committed by American Presidents?
*The acts may well amount to war crimes, but no one is a war criminal until they have been tried by a court of competant jurisdiction and been found guilty.  As the header of the page clearly states, this article is supposed to be for convicted war criminals.  I am concerned by this list as you can tell from my comments above, and I have also not perused this list to make certain that only convicted criminals appear on the page, so please don't respond with "X is on this page so you are wrong," becasue that is supposed the purpose of the list and so the U.S. presidents do not belong. I hope that helps. Indrian 17:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  War Crimes 

message: Should Steven D. Green be classed as a war criminal? He shot four members of an Iraqi family dead and raped their daughter during the combat, so that is in theory crimes against humanity.
:Was he convicted for a war crime? If yes, he should be in this list, if no, he shouldn't. -- int19h 08:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The list claims to be a list of charged and/or convicted war criminals...  The "and/or" means that someone who is charged but not convicted may go in the list.  In fact, the list, as currently defined, may include people who were found innocent. Ken Arromdee 17:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iraq War 

message: Valerian Trifa is on this list and while he was indeed involved in the leadership of an anti-semitic organization/party during WWII (the Iron Guard), it seems he was not convicted nor formally charged for war crimes (his NYTimes obituary utterly fails to mention such a thing). bogdan 22:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Valerian Trifa]] 

message: I added the cleanup tag because I think this article should include for each person listed the name of the court of justice which sentenced/charged them. I know there are some persons listed which were never even charged. bogdan 11:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup tag 

message: Shiro Ishii commited war crimes, but he was never charged because of a deal with the United States. He does not fits the description in the lead section. bogdan 11:18, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Shiro Ishii]] 

message: While Frank Walus was convicted of war crimes he won an appeal before he died. He  shouldn't be included in this list if this information is correct. 67.182.250.16 00:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frank Walus 

message: See "A federal immigration judge says prosecutors failed to prove a case for deporting Karlis Detlavs (..)"here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Doc15071969 (talk • contribs) 16:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing [[Karlis Detlavs]] 

message: Where are the Soviet political and military leaders? Practically all of them. --HanzoHattori 10:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  It's all Axis - where are the Stalinists? 

message: I see people that aided Hitler, but no Hitler.
:He was never tried and convicted because he committed suicide before being apprehended.  Needs a conviction to make this list.  RJFJR (talk) 16:25, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The current version of this list is definately incorrect.  Hitler was not tried and his death was most definately known when the trials were held.  ludahai 魯大海 (talk) 23:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where's Hitler himself? 

message: I have replaced the words "not acquited" with "convicted" in the definition. Previosly the definition did not agree with the outcommented text. Also, as far as I know, people are legally innocent till proven otherwise. Simply being formally charged doesn't make someone a war criminal.  This of course does not mean I think Mladić or Karadžić are innocent. --Eleassar my talk 08:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I accordingly removed General Juin from the list as he was not even indicted. I found at least one other person (Gustav Simon) who should probably be removed on the grounds of never being convicted (though he almost certainly would have been). I fear the entire list may be spiked with such cases, people either accused of warcrimes by one group, or people indicted or sought for warcrimes but never convicted... Which is why I will also support the move.--Caranorn 12:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition 

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
List of war criminals → List of convicted war criminals – {For the same reasons that Category:War criminals was deleted. See also my comment one thread above. --Eleassar my talk 10:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt that would be accetable under Wikipedia rules. Since this would be using a syntheis of data it appears that this idea would vilolate WP:OR. In the end we would need a reliable source calling someone a war criminal before we can add someone to a list. --67.71.77.224 23:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If this idea is unacceptable simply because it doesn't groove with Wikipedia's rules then the rules should be changed. Having two lists - one for convicted war criminals and the second for WC's who have not had justice done to them - is perfectly reasonable and absolutely necessary.
=== Discussion ===
Add any additional comments
I have mixed feelings about the proposed move.  I must acknowledge that a title like "List of war criminals" is very broad and may lead some people to include a name only for political reasons or by mere ignorance.  For instance, I have found in this list the German General Franz Halder who, to the best of my knowledge, has never been convicted and has even received the Medal of Freedom in 1961.  Therefore, I could certainly agree with the fact that the page name must be changed.
On the other hand, there are plenty of people who have indeed committed war crimes but have never be convicted for many reasons.  One of the most obvious examples on this list is the one of Heinrich Himmler who, for obvious reasons, has never faced a court.  I also noticed that Adolf Hitler is not on the list, probably he too has never been tried.  Another well known example of a person having committed war crimes but never tried is the one of Shiro Ishii, head of the Unit 731.  I think that everyone will agree that he actually committed war crimes.  However, for "state reasons", he never faced a court and so, was never convicted.  I have however no doubt that serious historians will consider him as a war criminal.  Cases like this make me reluctant to the proposed move, even if, as I wrote above, there are some good arguments as well for the proposed move.
Furthermore, since there is already a category "people convicted of war crimes", I am afraid that renaming this page will just make it become redundant with this category.  --Lebob-BE 08:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article has been renamed  as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 11:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: Add any additional comments
I have mixed feelings about the proposed move.  I must acknowledge that a title like "List of war criminals" is very broad and may lead some people to include a name only for political reasons or by mere ignorance.  For instance, I have found in this list the German General Franz Halder who, to the best of my knowledge, has never been convicted and has even received the Medal of Freedom in 1961.  Therefore, I could certainly agree with the fact that the page name must be changed.
On the other hand, there are plenty of people who have indeed committed war crimes but have never be convicted for many reasons.  One of the most obvious examples on this list is the one of Heinrich Himmler who, for obvious reasons, has never faced a court.  I also noticed that Adolf Hitler is not on the list, probably he too has never been tried.  Another well known example of a person having committed war crimes but never tried is the one of Shiro Ishii, head of the Unit 731.  I think that everyone will agree that he actually committed war crimes.  However, for "state reasons", he never faced a court and so, was never convicted.  I have however no doubt that serious historians will consider him as a war criminal.  Cases like this make me reluctant to the proposed move, even if, as I wrote above, there are some good arguments as well for the proposed move.
Furthermore, since there is already a category "people convicted of war crimes", I am afraid that renaming this page will just make it become redundant with this category.  --Lebob-BE 08:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>
This article has been renamed  as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 11:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: This list could use a lot of cleaning up and to have sources and conviction sentences (just added some new ones with sources). Anything can be added without proof as it currently is.
Also, the list could be more relevent, this is just a mess. What we should do is divide the list into subsections regarding time/place of crime, so as to have a title "World War 2" - subtitle "Europe-Germans" - list them - subtitle "Asia-Japanese" - list them, etc. for the entire list. More relevance that way.
The Spanish Inquisitor 09:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaning up the list 

message: Abrial, although convicted of collaborating with the enemy, committed no war crime, as far as I can tell. If editors can't tell the difference, this page is bound to remain a mess. Chris the speller 04:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. There is nothing in his article or this one to suggest he was ever convicted of war crimes - as opposed to collaboration. I've therefore removed his name AndrewRT(Talk) 22:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Collaborating with the enemy is not a war crime 

message: He was not a war criminal. During the communist era he was seen as collaborator and criminal but he actually helped to save as many lives as possible. Nowadays' historians can confirm that.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.70.222.228 (talk) 15:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing in his atticle or this one to suggest he was ever convicted of war crimes so I've removed his name. AndrewRT(Talk) 22:06, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emil Hácha? 

message: Why is Kurt Waldheim (1918-2007), Austrian army lieutenant and former United Nations Secretary General) on this list? The name of the article and the introductory paragraph indicate that only convicted war criminals should be on the list. From what I can find out on Wiki, he was never convicted, nor was he ever formally accused and brought before any court of competent jurisdiction. Without any evidence to the contrary, I suggest that Waldheim's name should be removed from the list.--TGC55 (talk) 01:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. There is nothing on his article or this one to suggest he was ever convicted of war crimes so I've removed his name. AndrewRT(Talk) 22:03, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kurt Waldheim? 

message: * Jean Paul Akayesu: The ICTR convicted him of genocide and crimes against humanity but cleared him of war crimes ()
* Heinrich Himmler: Per his article he committed suicide before any trial
* Joseph Goebbels: ditto
AndrewRT(Talk) 21:56, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed deletion(s) 

message: Would this article be improved if it was converted to a sortable table? I've made a start at User:AndrewRT/List of convicted war criminals to show what it would look like.
By forcing people to list the convicting court, it might also reduce the instance of false inclusions. AndrewRT(Talk) 22:58, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Convert to sortable table? 

message: Firt of all this lsit is not an article.  Removing name from this list only because the date of the death is not mentioned or because there is no reference to the court that has taken this decision looks a little bit strange to me.  In particular when the name directly refers to a Wikipedia article where this information can be easily found.  For instance, Karl Dönitz has been erased from the list.  Although everybody knows he was among the convicted during the Nuremberg Trial.  And could at least suppose that he is death.  That one removes the names in red when they do not fufill the WP:BLP, doesn't disturb me.  But when it is done for people where a link allows to find directly and easily the source, I have the weird feeling that we are facing a misinterpreatin of the meaning of WP:BLP.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lebob-BE (talk • contribs) 17:03, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The list was tagged for cleanup for over a year, but no one could be bothered to do anything about it. Being a list instead of an article is not an exception from any policies. Yes, I have removed entries which were correct, and entries about dead people. So what? Readd them with dates of birth and death, or with a good source. Cleanup the article, or leave all potential problems off it. Don't revert it again. It's better, on such a contentious subject, to be missing some names, than to have too many. Fram (talk) 08:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

text: I have reverted again. If you (or anyone else) undo this, then you are reintroducing severe WP:BLP violations. Fram (talk) 08:26, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing names 

message: Why is this a list instead of a category?  RJFJR (talk) 14:08, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category? 

message: Ryti was convicted under Soviet demands from crimes against peace in Finnish court. Not from war crimes. Shouldn't he be removed from the list? - Wanderer602 (talk) 18:13, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ryti 

message: The list currently includes Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels & Heinrich Himmler. In the Hitler case it specifically mentions he was tried in absentia because his death wasn't known at the time. According to Death of Adolf Hitler his remains were destroyed enough that they couldn't really be identified and although the info did leak out it's not clear whether everyone believed it. Therefore the claim made in this article seems plausible. For Goebbels the attempts to destroy his remains didn't succeed and they could be identified so it's not clear if he would have been tried. Unlike Hitler, this list doesn't mention anything about why he was tried. For Himmler, he killed himself in British custody so there was I presume no doubt he was dead so it's even less clear if he would have been tried. And again this list doesn't mention anything about why he was tried. I see I'm not the first person to comment on Goebbels and Himmler, someone above suggested they be removed. The Nuremberg Trials article seems to imply none of them were tried so if any of those 3 do belong, it probably should be modified. Nil Einne (talk) 08:59, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do these people belong? 

message: *Benito Mussolini, fascist dictator of Italy during the Second World War. Captured by partisans while attempting to flee the country, tried, and shot to death on April 29, 1945.
I've removed this entry to here - because there is no reference to war crimes prosecution. Itc editor2 (talk) 18:32, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Benito Mussolino

message: Although there were some brief discussions, some years ago, there are no specific inclusion criteria for this list and there are numerous unsourced, non-notable, entries.
As stated at Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists, Wikipedia:Notability#Stand-alone lists and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists#Adding individual items to a list:-
# All lists must have clearly defined inclusion criteria
# Every entry should meet the notability criteria for its own article.  Red-linked entries are acceptable if the entry is verifiably a member of the list, and it is reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming in the future.  This prevents indiscriminate lists, and prevents individual lists from being too large to be useful to readers.
# Editors may, at their discretion, choose to limit large lists by only including entries for independently notable items or those with Wikipedia articles.
# All items on the list must follow Wikipedia's core content policies of Verifiability (through good sources in the item's one or more references), No original research, and Neutral point of view
I, therefore, propose that these guidelines are implementedAll entries without an article or a verifiable citation, will be removed.
As assessing whether "it is reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming" is pure guesswork, I propose to "choose to limit the list to entries with a Wikipedia articles", and eliminate all redlinks - as point 3 above - and seek consensus for that.- Arjayay (talk) 16:49, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion criteria 

message: Should this article be broken into war/time period instead of last name? Lima Bean Farmer (talk) 21:43, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rfc on organization 

message: There is consensus on restricting the list to convicted war criminals. However this seems to push the NPOV problem towards deciding which convictions are legitimate or which courts are legitimate. Should George W. Bush be added to the list (alongside Tony Blair, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Alberto Gonzales, David Addington, William Haynes, Jay Bybee and John Yoo) because he was convicted of war crimes by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal in 2011? I think the answer should be yes unless some objective criteria can be set up (e.g. an explicit whitelist of which national and international courts are considered legitimate).
Paulginz (talk) 14:26, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Paulginz, do you have a reliable source stating that they have been “found guilty of war crimes under the rules of warfare as defined by the World War II Nuremberg Trials (as well as by earlier agreements established by the Hague Conferences of 1899 and 1907, the Kellogg-Briand Pact of 1928, and the Geneva Conventions of 1929 and 1949)?” If you can find this then you can add them. Lima Bean Farmer (talk) 18:47, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  George W Bush 

message: Should each section be made into a chart so that information on each person can be globalized? If so, some potential categories could be name and dates alive, position of power, and years of sentence. Lima Bean Farmer (talk) 18:54, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: What does "globalized" mean? I would like to see a list using charts, for reference, if you have one in mind.Senorangel (talk) 21:30, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Senorangel, I just mean using a format such as at List of unusual deaths. Currently there is various information for various people on this page but it seems to change from section to section (some people have their birthdates, some people have the date of their conviction, some people have the position they had before facing trial but not everyone). Hope this clarifies it. Lima Bean Farmer (talk) 04:20, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Why the RfC? Just start doing it. It doesn't look like anyone's reverted you so far. Putting things into table markup seems like it can only be a positive change. SamuelRiv (talk) 23:15, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you SamuelRiv. I am trying to discuss with more experienced editors before making large changes, but I will go on unless there is further objection. Happy editing, Lima Bean Farmer (talk) 00:46, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Another Rfc on organization