Talk:Nuwaubian Nation

message: I would like to make it clear from the onset that I definitely believe that this subject has a place in the encyclopedia, I have no doubt about that. A problem arises, in my opinion, when any article is as dependent for its basic references directly on primary sources, as as this one is. My biggest concern is that it's somewhat unnecessary, I've already located two reliable sources online in book form that would both add a great deal to setting up authoritative referencing for the core of this article. I'll add links to them here later today or tomorrow for others to peruse. This article appears to have spawned a number of "spin off" articles which suffer from the same referencing problem in my opinion. In December of last year, through consensus, it was decided that one of those articles should be merged with this one and two are currently nominated for deletion/merger. From my perspective it inherently makes more sense to stabilize this situation by focusing on providing proper referencing for this one, as the 'core' article, before creating spin offs that are, in most cases, equally improperly supported. I think it goes without saying that because of the obscurity of the subject, it can be very difficult to find secondary sources for supporting the material sometimes, but I believe that without them, it's possible for an article to quickly become a type of "primary source" itself for sometimes hard to locate material, something policy strongly discourages. Without the support of independent sources for material, any editor is free to synthesize their own personal interpretation of what is relevant and important and should be included in an introductory article to the belief system, something I consider dangerously close to "original research".   cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 23:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: My edit tonight, in removing the "Etymology" section in its entirety, was because I believe that it simply doesn't meet criteria 1-3 for inclusion in Moorlock's posting above. thanks Deconstructhis (talk) 01:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article quality 

message: Here are some sources for references:
UFO Religions
By Christopher Hugh Partridge
Contributor Christopher Hugh Partridge
Published by Routledge, 2003
Pgs. 149-161
UFO Religion: Inside Flying Saucer Cults and Culture
By Gregory L. Reece
Published by I. B. Tauris, 2007
Pgs. 192
The Nuwaubian Movement: Black Gnosis
By Susan Palmer
Published by Ashgate Publishing, Limited, 2008
Encyclopedia of American Religions
Ed : J. Gordon Melton
Gale Cengage; 7th edition (December 2002)
Jihadis in the Hood: Race, Urban Islam and the War on Terror Jihadis in the Hood: Race, Urban Islam and the War on Terror
Hisham Aidi
Middle East Report, No. 224 (Autumn, 2002), pp. 36-43
A simple keyword newspaper search on 'LexisNexis Academic' using "Nuwaubian" produces 30 articles dealing with the subject from 1999-2008 cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 05:43, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Bilal Philips' The Ansaar Cult and Bill Osinski's Ungodly are also good sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moorlock (talk • contribs) 
I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on those choices as "good sources" for the article. "The Ansaar Cult" may be able to offer us a single reference or two to buttress up a claim in a potential section in the article which addresses criticism of the group by Muslims and others with a more traditional outlook on organized religion, but as a general source for the article overall, I'd suggest his bias is less than useful and fairly obvious. In my opinion "Ungodly", your other choice has very little merit. I've only read excerpts so far, but it appears to be a trade paperback whose only purpose is to blatantly sensationalize York's life. I'll respond to your other comments on sourcing in general in the other section.  cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 04:28, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Philips' book has some good interviews with ex-Nuwaubians from their early New York period, in addition to the less-useful bulk of the material that deals with York's quasi-Islamic heresies as viewed from an orthodox Sunni perspective. Osinksi did a lot of newspaper reporting about the Nuwaubians toward the end of their Tama-Re period in Georgia, and his book has a lot of information about life at the compound and at an earlier outpost shortly after the New York period. These are much more in-depth sources than some of the more superficial catch-all 101 UFO Cults type books, whatever their flaws. -— (talk) 04:38, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Per the AfD for that page, the consensus was to merge the contents of Yamassee with this article, then to change Yamassee to a disambig page with links to Nuwaubianism, Yamasee (the notable Native American tribe), and/or Dwight York... - Adolphus79 (talk) 17:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no such consensus. The result of the AFD for Yamassee was keep with an encouragement to discuss possible merges on its talk page. -Moorlock (talk) 18:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The result of the AfD was Keep, because there should only be two ways to close, Keep or Delete... but the consensus of the discussion was to merge... no mention of the word possible... can you give any reason why it should not be merged? - Adolphus79 (talk) 18:29, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a lot of discussion on the AFD page on whether the page should be kept distinct, should be merged with Dwight York, should be merged with Nuwaubianism, or should be merged with Washitaw Nation.  This discussion did not result in a consensus.  I can see arguments for each position; my recommendation is to keep the page distinct, as the Yamassee group is distinct from the Nuwaubians, and I think that a merge now might very well just lead to confusion and a need for a demerging later. The Nuwaubian groups and the Yamassee group were very tightly bound only for the period of time in which Dwight York was in his “I’m an Injun Chief” phase, but the Nuwaubians have since dropped their native-american pretensions and the two groups are back to evolving independently. -Moorlock (talk) 19:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: All of the references provided and all that I saw said that it was only a name change... York created "The United Nuwaubian Nation of Moors", and since he went to jail, the group has changed it's name to "The Yamassee Native Americans of the Creek Nation"... You said twice during the discussion that it should be kept (and please note you were the only one that thought it should be kept), but you never answered any of the requests to provide citations for your statements... you are the only one that thought it should be kept, you are the only one that mentioned a merge with Washitaw Nation, every other editor that contributed to the discussion thought it should be merged with either Dwight York or Nuwaubianism, the latter of which would be more logical... there was not much dicussion at all, just a number of editors agreeing that this page needs to be merged and changed into a disambig... when 5 of the 6 editors that were involved in the discussion come to agreeance, that is considered a consensus in my book... the only editor that did not agree was you... why do you continue to debate this? - Adolphus79 (talk) 19:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: On the AfD discussion page I count two keeps (not sure what dab means, but the note afterwards sounds like a "keep" to me), one merge with Dwight York, two merge with Nuwaubianism, and one merge with either York or Nuwaubianism.  The result of the AfD was keep.  That you insist that the matter is closed and that there was a "consensus" to merge with Nuwaubianism strikes me as railroading, as this is decidedly not what the record shows.  A 2:1 ratio of merge:keep recommendations, especially with the merge faction split and the sample size decidedly low does not a consensus make.  You have a point that the bulk of third-party references to the Yamassee group refer to it only in the context of York's temporary leadership of the group, but this says more about the relative newsworthiness of York than about the nature of the group. -— (talk) 20:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Dab = disambig = merge content and disambiguate this page... and consensus is not based on numbers... again, the AfD was to keep, and not delete the page... we have gotten past that, the page is not going to be deleted... the content of the page is going to be moved to another page, and this page is going to be turned into a disambig... please, stop restating the obvious... yes, the result of the AfD was keep... but that does not mean that the merge is not still going to happen... by definition, merge is not an acceptable closure option... the page is going to be kept, and changed... you arguing about what exactly was said at the AfD, when anyone can go there and read it for themselves, is not helping the situation... if you really want to help this article, then (as I've said several times now) find some third party reliable sources for what you claim, and merge the article onto either Nuwaubianism or Dwight York (I'll even let you choose which to merge to if it makes you happy)... there is really no point in continuing this debate with you if you are not going to move on past your "the result was keep" arguement... - Adolphus79 (talk) 20:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Just wanted to pop in and let it be known that I'm not deliberately ignoring the current proceedings going on here. Later on tonight, I'm hoping to make another troll through Lexus, Jstor, Wilson's etc. to see if I can pick off any more referencing on these issues. I'll report back later on and let you all know what I found. I wonder if it might be helpful to consult with the admin who closed the debate in order to see if she can provide a comment?  cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 22:48, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge from [[Yamassee]]... 

message: In light of the fact that legal documents, including the prison registryhttp://www.bop.gov/iloc2/InmateFinderServlet?Transaction=NameSearch&needingMoreList=false&LastName=York&Middle=&FirstName=Dwight&Race=U&Sex=U&Age=&x=23&y=23 list him as Dwight D. York, I think we should refer to him by his real name and not a pseudonym. --Pstanton (talk) 00:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've changed the article to reflect that his legal name is Dwight. I've left Malachi in quotes, and references as I suppose he isn't the only author ever to publish under a pseudonym. But calling him Malachi throughout the article contradicts the style used in his own article Dwight York --Pstanton (talk) 00:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  York's name 

message: It seems to any reasoning knowledgable fact finder, one would research the answers and the questions.  The Commander and chief of the Yamassee Native Americans and the United Nation of Nuwabian are a seperate entity one being a religious group who are the FOLLOWERS of Dr. York, and The Yamassee Native are not a religious people their nation consist of millions of nationals in the United States and across the Americas.  
This page to be a stab at the Federally Recognized Nation of Indigenous people, [all one needs to do is to read Lewis and Clarks Expiditions with photos] research the yamassee war and the discription of the people.  It seems that only close minded individuals who cannot get pass skin color would state repeatedly [Black] a legal status not a nationality.  Stop labeling it time for "change", The Chief of the Yamassee did not suffer from an indictment for tax evasion, There are also treaties of peace and friendship with the Washitaw Nation, as well as Federal documents that are in fact Valid with seals that the Governor now want to regret he gave, which are legally sound with other federally documented records with the highest authentication recognition[3]. 
Let's just all live as one family in true reality that The Indigenous Aboriginal people were Various Copper Colored found in the Northern Hemisphere by the Europeans when they arrived were dark dravidian type and this definitions comes from 1832.  Let drop the hate and wake up.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.158.225.112 (talk) 15:54, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yamasee Native American 

message: I would like to say that I just reverted to an older version as the past several edits were all vandalism. I'm going to move that we add the pp-semi-vandalism box and get this page protected from editing by anonymous IP addresses. --Pstanton 05:52, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've listed this article on  Requests for page protection --Pstanton 06:04, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Significant revert and protection 

message: I am assessing this article as Start class for now, but it could easily be moved up to C-class with only a small amount of work...
*Infobox - Infoboxes are almost standard anymore... check out ...
*In-line references - I notice that there are some links added throughout the article, it would be better if someone could change these into in-line refs, WP:REF can help with this...
*Images - The old saying "a picture is worth a thousand words" still rings true today... try to find some that have either been released to the public domain, or otherwise fall under WP:FAIRUSE...
Feel free to let me know if you need help with anything... good luck, and happy editing... - Adolphus79 (talk) 23:53, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: After reading this article again, I have decided to remove the WikiProject Micronations banner... as this article sits now, it is not about a micronation, but more about a group of people... there is a mention of micronationalism, but until that section is expanded, I do not believe this article falls under the Project's scope... If, in the future, the details of the micronation itself are expanded (or an article is written about the nation itself), let me know (or anyone at the project) and I will be more than happy to re-assess... - Adolphus79 (talk) 04:37, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assessment 

message: After trying to cleanup the article and do research, this article seems to be comepletely incorrect, biased, and lacking on major parts of the history/story... according to this news story, the Southern Poverty Law Center lists the "Nuwaubian nation" as a hate group, due to York's preaching of black supremacy and hatred.  And that since his conviction (77 counts of child molestation, child exploitation, tax evasion, and racketeering), the size of the group has "dwindled"... it seems to be more of a cult than anything else, with York having only a very small following...
It seems that the group was originally called "The United Nuwaubian Nation of Moors", then changed their name to "The Yamassee Native Americans of the Creek Nation" after the court case.  All of their property was siezed by the feds, and all that remains are a couple fanatical followers, a website, and a small bookstore... I can't seem to find any information about Sanders other than his run-in with the Justice Department, and I can't seem to find any sources on the group that aren't stories about York with mere mentions of his "cult"... according to MSNBC, "the cult was used for his sexual pleasure and financial gain, including recruiting members to groom children for sex with him."  This seems to be a very small group of people who still follow York, and do not seem to pass notability concerns as a group.  I think enough of the story and information is covered in York's article, that this article should either be deleted, or redirected to either York's article or Yamasee...
* MSNBC - Georgia cult goes quiet after leader jailed
* G-news search for "Derrick Sanders" (most about an actor with the same name)
* G-news search for "Yamassee Native Americans" (all 12 hits of it, most about either Sanders case, or York's cult falling apart)
- Adolphus79 (talk) 04:09, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: After thinking about it further, I am going to take it to AfD to gain a consensus on what should be done... - Adolphus79 (talk) 04:37, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good candidate for AfD.  Don't inflict it on true Native Americans by any redirect to Yamasee Indians.--Parkwells (talk) 16:51, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: AFD

message: The result of the AfD was to merge this article with Nuwaubianism, and to make this page a disambig for Nuwaubianism / Yamasee... Discussion is here... - Adolphus79 (talk) 17:32, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That is dishonest, or, charitably, inaccurate. The result of the AFD for Yamassee was keep with an encouragement to discuss possible merges on its talk page. -— (talk) 18:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Reply and discussion here... - Adolphus79 (talk) 18:28, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: Nuwaupian has nothing to offer that's reliably sourced. Phrases like "Our unity works on the principle of synergy, where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts" are indicative of POV editing, and the references are obviously not independent of the subject. Author has tried to make the article rely on Nuwaubu/Nuwaupu, which are both at AfD and likewise have no reliable, secondary sources. Drmies (talk) 15:43, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another merge: [[Nuwaupian]] 

message: Ok, based on the above, it is clear that the term "Nuwaubianism" isn't tenable. But this doesn't mean that the topic is invalid, it just means that googling "Nuwaubianism" isn't going to turn up anything useful. 
But there are monographs on the topic, at least one:  The Nuwaubian Nation: Black Spirituality and State Control (2010).
So my suggestion at this point is:
*get rid of the merge tag
*move the article to either Nuwaubian Nation or Nuwaubian movement (viz. the terms used in actual quotable publications)
*remove all the quotefarms and primary references, and base the article on the 2010 monograph and other decent secondary WP:RS
--dab (𒁳) 11:55, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup

message: An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is not about the SPLC, and hence you need to put none. If people want to know they can click the link and find out. SPL and its opinions are greater than the info about the actual organization and have no place hi in the lead. What Nuwaubian nation and others think about SPL is certainly not in the 2nd line of that lead. Per Wikipedia WP:LEAD--Inayity (talk) 16:14, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC 

message: The lede of the article could be tidied up and shortened. I've done a little work on it. Jonpatterns (talk) 11:51, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lede too long 

message: There is way too much quoting from York, as noted above. I am going to delete those very lengthy sections of his writings and quotes without sources, as was discussed above. The article has to use RS secondary sources, according to WP requirements. It doesn't make sense to keep all this myth-making by York. He published plenty - let people go to those sources.Parkwells (talk) 15:59, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you in advance. Ogress 17:45, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed some of the original research, cited to York or altogether uncited, with this edit; I see that it's been an on-going problem with the article. Please see the diff for some of the inline comments embedded prior (not by me). K.e.coffman (talk) 23:57, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed some more OR (and outright gibberish) while I was at it. Wow, what a strange article. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:41, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for your work on the article. I'd like to note that this statement is incorrect: The article has to use RS secondary sources, according to WP requirements. Primary sources can be used in certain circumstances and with care, see WP:PRIMARY. Jonpatterns (talk) 10:40, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your comment; yes, I was overstating the case, in some frustration at the lack of Reliable secondary sources.Parkwells (talk) 14:08, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Too many quotes/primary sources

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thread_title:  External links modified