Talk:Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia

message: Today's abrupt move of this article from Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia to Maria Romanov was, in my opinion, too hasty and also bad. We know that she does not use the surname Romanov, and we know that she has an almost uncontested right to use "of Russia", also apparently accorded to her by her opponents in the Romanov Family Association.
I support that the title "Grand duchess" was removed, and hopefully will be, from the title of the article. Such titles have no place, in my opinion, in article titling: for brevity's sake, but also for avoiding quarrels about what are pretensions and what are true rights. Such titles and stules are explained in the text of the article.
Maria Romanov is too generic. It will probably later serve as disambiguation page.
Patronymic is a part of their namings. Thus, Maria Vladimirovna is good and NPOV.
We should defer to actual usage of her and of the meaningful others. After all, this is no place for artificial naming. And if artificial naming, as apparently here, is intended to express a political opinion of her claims, is doubly not good. It is POV.
I believe the actual usage for her is widely "of Russia". Thus, I vote that soon this article be moved under Maria Vladimirovna of Russia. 62.78.124.63 20:59, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. mikka (t) 21:05, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Her actual usage is "of Russia". I will revert now to the version that we have all consented to. Watercool 09:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old unilateral move discussion 

message: Whatever is to happen, no one must do a cut-and-paste move. 84.251.186.14 11:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cut-and-paste moves are against Wikipedia policy 

message: Maria is known by the name which she uses for herself, which includes the title of Grand Duchess of Russia. The current name is unacceptable. "Standard" naming for pretenders is to affix the title to the end of their name. In this case, that would be Maria Vladimirovna, Grand Duchess of Russia (as she would the the Grand Duchess of Russia as opposed to just a Grand Duchess of Russia). Otherwise, she is at Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia. I prefer the former. Charles 18:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Charles, have it moved. Gryffindor 13:09, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: That is the Danish Royal Court's opinion. Maria Vladimirovna uses the title of Grand Duchess for herself. Charles 07:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It doesn't matter at all, so there is no point. Some people refuse to recognize Elizabeth II as queen and call her Princess Philip of Greece and Denmark. Others refuse to call Louis-Alphonse de Bourbon HRH The Duke of Anjou. The fact of the matter is, and the only point of the matter, is that a pretender here on Wikipedia and in general are known by the names and titles which they themselves use. For those that even acknowledge her as titled, it's either Princess or Grand Duchess. She uses the grand ducal title. Charles 01:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: My thoughts exactly. I could start calling myself King of Scotland (I am, in fact, a direct descendent of James IV, about a dozen generations distant... almost everyone with roots in great britain can trace descent from a monarch) but that doesn't make me King Kenneth - no matter how many others supported my claim. It just seems ridiculous to credit people with titles that, for all intents and purposes, disappeared, dissolved, or were abolished centuries ago. By giving what reads like legitimacy to these imaginary titles Wikipedia goes beyond presenting encyclopedic information to becoming a part of the LARP. It would be completely legit to report that so-and-so is well-known as a claimant to such-and-such and extinct title, but to seemingly credit them with actually holding that title is another story.PurpleChez (talk) 16:36, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

text: Oh? My "POV" is the POV taken by pretenders and supported by Wikipedia. I support and change what I can if it's right. In the mean time, why don't you get a name and stop hiding behind an IP address if you're going to tell me that I'm always incorrect? Until then, you don't deserve my consideration. Charles 19:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh, an editor with only one contribution. The one above. Charles 03:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Charles is correct. --Counter-revolutionary 08:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was Move.  —Wknight94 (talk) 03:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Support As nominator. Charles 21:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Does anyone know anything about her life? Beyond the succession issue. Biography should mention some  information about a person's life.BorisG 14:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Life 

message: I removed the following today, January 8, 2006:
Her rival Nicholas Romanov, Prince of Russia, has -perhaps unwittingly- offered an argument that supports Maria's dynastically as daughter of Leonida, by citing in a published statement in October 1995, the public renunciations of succession rights by two princesses of the imperial blood immediately prior to their marriages: by Princess Tatiana of Russia in 1911 prior to her marriage to Prince Bagration of Moukhrani and by Princess Irina of Russia in 1914 prior to her marriage to Prince Yusupov. Nicholas argues: "These Ukases [publishing the renunciations] prove without doubt that had the princesses not renounced their rights, their issue would have been in possession of full rights to the inheritance of the throne of Russia."
The statement was used to suggest that Nicholas recognized the equality of the Bragation Dynasty to the Romanov's and the inheritance rights of females.  That is not the case.
Nicholas' claim is that the equal marriage rules only applied to Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses.  Since Princess Tatiana and Princess Irina were not of grand ducal rank they were not required to marry equally.  This position is the basis of Nicholas' own claim to be head of the Romanov Family.  Since his father, Prince Roman, was not of grand ducal rank, he could make an unequal marriage and retain succession rights for himself and pass them to his descendants (i.e. Nicholas).  In contrast, Nicholas argues that those of grand ducal rank who made unequal marriages could not pass succession rights to their descendants.  Thus the male line descended from Grand Duke Dimitri, which is genealogically senior to the line of Prince Roman, is excluded from the throne because Dimitri was a grand duke who made an unequal marriage.
As regards Maria, Nicholas' arguments are twofold. Either Maria's father was required to marry equally and failed to do so by marrying a Bagration, or his marriage was acceptable but Maria is not the head of the family because Nicholas takes precedence over her as a male.  Basically, Nicholas' claim does not turn on the equality of the marriage of Maria's parents but on his contention that as a mere Prince of Russia (instead of a Grand Duke) his father, Prince Roman, was exempt from the equal marriage rules.  His interest in the Bagration's status is not because his own claims turn on that issue but because he wants to accuse Maria, and her father, of hypocrisy by asserting that Maria's father married unequally at the same time he condemned the marriages of the remaining Romanovs.
This whole argument is convoluted, and somewhat silly, but it is the basis for Nicholas' claim to the Russian crown.  To twist it into an endorsement of Maria is a mistake.  Nicholas is not suggesting that Princess Tatiana retained her rights because her marriage to a Bagration was equal but because, as a Princess of Russia instead of a Grand Duchess, Tatiana was not required to make an equal marriage.  He is suggesting that the Bagration marriage was clearly unequal, but that Tatiana would have retained her rights except for her voluntary renunciation.  The point is proven by the fact that he refers to Princess Irina in the same way. No one suggests that the Yusopovs were equal to the Romanovs but Nicholas points out that Irina was required to sign a renunciation of her rights.  To him that means that Irina would have retained all her rights despite marrying unequally had she not renounced them.
63.215.28.165 21:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nicholas' alleged statement supportive of Maria 

message: Line of succession to the British Throne lists Maria as #109, so I've changed this article to match.  Presumably a few new births have moved her down since she was listed here as #107.  Since that's likely to happen relatively frequentlyt category, I suggest that the sentence be reworded to remove the reference to a particular number.  I'd suggest "Maria Vladimirovna of Russia is in the line of succession to the British Throne.", but since this can be a sensitive subject I'll leave that change to somebody more familiar with the sensitivities. Jordan Brown 18:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Line of succession for British throne 

message: Grand Duchess Maria Romanova is the only officially recognised (by Patriarchs of Moscow and by presently ruling monarchs) Head of the Imperial House of Russia. Never Nicolas Romanovich Romanov (who is an issue of an illegal marrige, and who is OUT of the Line of Succession in I.H.R. at all, and who abusing a title "Prince Romanov" (there is not such title at all)) claiming to the Headship of Imperial House of Russia, but only for headship in the "Association of Romanov heirs" (private organisation consisting issue from illegal marriges of Romanov family. All its members OUT of the Line of Succession of Imperial House of Russia). He claiming that there is no Head of Imperial House of Russia at all,and he does not recognise the position of HIH Maria Vladimirovna. But his claim is no more then an "idea fix" of an privat person, and has no any legal status.  The artical should include official position of proper authorities (in that cause the authorities are: The Patriarchy of Moscow and are heads of other european Royal Houses) instead of claimes of private persons and self-styled princes (like Nicolas Romanovich Romanov,etc.)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.239.129.227 (talk) 18:58, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an incredibly controversial topic, the various claims are discussed here Line of succession to the Russian throne. Please see WP:NPOV. Prince Nicholas Romanovich not only is Head of the Romanov Family Association but rightly or wrongly claims the Headship of the Imperial House/Family, see a press release from his brother "During the summer of last year, after a visit to Saint Petersburg, I issued a press release in which I informed the media that the entourage of my relative, Princess Maria Wladimirovna, was titling her as Grand Duchess and Head of the Imperial Family. I did point out that both titles ware misleading as the last Grand Duchess of the Imperial family had been Olga Alexandrovna, the sister of the martyred Tsar Nicholas II, who died in Canada in 1960. Furthermore, I pointed out that the Head of the Imperial Family was my elder brother Nicholas Romanovich who not only by right but also is recognized as such by all other members of the Imperial Family." By all means add that the Patriarch recognises Maria, but that does not equate to her being head of the Imperial Family that is one persons opinion, I very much doubt that every European Royal House recognises her, Prince Dimitri Romanovich is close to the Danish Royal Family, I've never seen Maria invited to Danish events for instance. - dwc lr (talk) 19:09, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

text: I have said add that the Patriarch recognises her somewhere in the article. The recognition is not surprising considering both of there stance on the remains of Emperor Nicholas II and his family. The fact is Nicholas Romanovich claims the headship and in future probably will be Prince Rostislav Rostislavovich. Because of the dispute Wikipedia must present a NPOV just as it does in other disputes such as France, Brazil, Two Sicilies. - dwc lr (talk) 19:43, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

text: I get that you support Maria V but Wikipeida must present a NPOV in these disputes, which it does. It is perfectly legitimate to discuss claims and support but stating Maria V *is the Head of the Imperial House* is a disputed and controversial POV. I’m well aware of Maria V’s and others stance on the so called “illegal”/morganatic marriages of the father of Nicholas Romanovich etc, just as am aware of people who believe Maria is born of an “illegal”/morganatic marriage. All these issues and more surrounding the succession is discussed at line of succession to the Russian throne. Saying Maria V is head of the Imperial House is unacceptable pov, saying she claims the headship if acceptable. Same applies for Prince Nicholas Romanovich regardless of how “ridiculous” you may regard his claims. - dwc lr (talk) 20:36, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

text: No your right Nicholas and his brother Dimitri don’t use inflated titles like “Grand Duke of Russia” as they are not grandsons of an Emperor, they claim the title “Prince of Russia”. And they certainly do not go around handing out Imperial and Royal orders; indeed they condemn such acts by Maria and her son Georg. Nicholas and Dimitri are seemingly more interested in doing charity work in Russia. But again effectively stating on Wikipeida that Maria is the only *“Head of the Russian Imperial House”* when there is a very real and bitter dispute is out of question. You can mention your interpretation of various Imperial laws as much as like; and can call Princes Nicholas and Dimitri “fantasists”, but it won’t make a difference as a NPOV must, and will be presented. Neither Maria V or Nicholas R is universally recognised as Head of the Imperial Family, just like the royal houses of Brazil, France etc for example. Disputes exist. - dwc lr (talk) 21:40, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding was always that Nicholas claimed to be head of the Romanov family, not head of the Russian Imperial House.  Maria's claims are potentially dubious, but any hereditary claim by Nicholas is even more dubious, given that there's just no way to argue that his father's marriage  was in conformity with the Pauline Laws.  It seems that there is some dispute as to what exactly Nicholas is claiming.  Sometimes he is just the elected head of a voluntary association of descendants of Tsar Nicholas I, and he accepts that the Russian monarchy no longer exists and that it's up to Russians to decide if they want a monarch and who they want it to be.  Sometimes he is the head of the Russian imperial family (always family, never house, so far as I can tell).  Whenever one goes at the latter claim and tries to grasp wht the basis of it is, there is generally a retreat to the former claim, which is unassailable. That being said, I don't think the anon is being at all helpful here. john k (talk) 01:31, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes its quite confusing all the different terms used but they all mean the same thing; Romanov/Russian Imperial Family/House/Dynasty. Here he calls himself Head of the Romanov dynasty for instance, the website for the President of Russia calls him “head of the Romanov family”, his brothers press release “correcting” misinformation about Maria being head calls him “Head of the Imperial Family”, here’s an article that uses Imperial house . His style certainly differs from Maria and he is like the majority of heads of dynasties in that he doesn’t go around explicitly claiming any throne or calling himself (titular) Emperor of Russia. He undoubtedly regards himself as successor to Grand Duke Vladimir and hopefully the anon will accept a NPOV being presented. The argument for his claim is based on interpretation of 1911 Ukase relieving princes and princess from the requirement from marrying equally, here’s an article . And Nicholas Romanovich wrote about the succession himself on the RFA site . - dwc lr (talk) 02:27, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The only officially recognised Head of Imperial House of Russia

message: Recent edits have violated the neutrality of this article. Since her father's death in 1992 she has, for the most part, been one of two prominent, rival claimants for Headsship of the House of Romanov and for embodiment of that family's historical legacy in Russia. Yet this article increasingly tilts against her claims by including/implying evidence against her eligibility without context, selecting largely negative-sounding quotes to attribute to her and highlighting references to how her rivals and critics view her claims and behavior. As a bio on Maria Vladimirovna, this article should, and in the past has, generally given her life story in a straight-forward and more-or-less neutral way, explaining the basic existence and grounds for her position and opposition, yet leaving in-depth analysis and specific criticism of her to the article Line of succession to the former Russian throne (much in need of updating, but its talk page reveals how daunting walking that gauntlet has been): the articles on her rivals, Nicholas Romanov, Prince of Russia, Prince Dimitri Romanov and, recently, Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen are not similarly biased against the subject's own perspective and interest. We are left with an imbalance in portraying both this individual and her movement -- which is, by most accounts, more widely recognized than that of her opponents, thus also giving rise to an undue weight problem. I have tried to leave in, while properly sourcing, some of the contentious material on this BLP, especially the recent edits, to restore balance, but continue to encounter resistance which, if allowed, will leave the article lopsided and distort the prevalent acceptance of Maria Vladimirovna's position as a pretender, not to mention compromising Wikipedia's neutrality. FactStraight (talk) 11:38, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

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message: Maria Vladimirovna is widely known and referred to as having the rank of (imperial) Grand Duchess (Grand Princess in Russian; Velikaya Kniagina).  This term along with her status constitutes a different rank than just a Princess, which is usually one of (mere): noble, serene, grand ducal, or royal. She is an imperial Grand Princess of the House of Romanov. If you (somehow) disagree, please bring your arguments to this talk page-section. L.Smithfield (talk) 18:30, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: For what it's worth, Almanach de Gotha (2016) calls Maria a princess. They give her father Vladimir as a grand duke. In the 1923 edition of Gotha, Vlad is a mere prince. The grand duke title was bestowed by his father Kirill, who declared himself emperor in exile in 1924. I can't think of a reason to affirm Vlad's claims while denying Maria's, at least not in terms of the succession law. Sometimes it is claimed that a woman cannot inherit the Russian throne, but this is nonsense. Perhaps the Romanov Family Association, which hates Maria, buys more copies of Gotha than her supporters do. The rightful heir torn down by sheer numbers and petty resentments. That's democracy for you. Literally no one else calls Maria a princess, as you can see here. 99to99 (talk) 23:58, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Grand duke is the usual and established, though not literal, translation in English and Romance languages of the traditional title of all non-ruling members of the Russian Imperial Family: Grand prince (великий князь, velikiy knyaz, female: velikaya knyaginia). -- Equord (talk) 14:48, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's usually restricted to the children and male-line grandchildren of the emperor. Later generations are prince/princess. DrKay (talk) 07:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grand duchess or just a princess? 

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message: An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect :Maria I of Russia and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 22#Maria I of Russia until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  DrKay (talk) 07:30, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Maria I of Russia" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: In the "Succession claims and activities" section it is stated that the Grand Duchess condemns the special military operation in the Ukraine. Is that a serious source? When I click on the source it also states that she doesn't take any specific position on the military operation. If the source is serious then that part should be rewritten to adhere to a neutral point of view. Reading the Wiki article one could think that she condemns the operation itself. 83.145.42.60 (talk) 10:42, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Condemnation of Russia's special military operation in the Ukraine 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 16:20, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia →  – The individual is merely a claimant, and a highly controversial one at that, including her self-granted title, which not recognised by the Romanov Family Association. In line with Wikipedia's styling of other such claimants, the article should surely use birth name in the header, and disputed self-granted titles should be in inverted commas. MisterWizzy (talk) 14:37, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose - The Romanov Family Association has absolutely no influence over how Wikipedia articles are titled. estar8806 (talk) ★ 15:22, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose  I agree with Estar8806. Dimadick (talk) 15:29, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose She is known with this name, is recognized as such by entities such as the Order of Malta and the opinions of an organization (the Romanov Family Association) with its own biases and controversies has absolutely nothing to do with how Wikipedia is run. The arguments presented by MisterWizzy do not support the need to rename the article.  --Kimontalk 00:53, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose as per the reasons above. Additionally, all other Russian princes/princesses are Grand Dukes/Grand Duchesses. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 06:13, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

text: Comment: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(royalty_and_nobility)#Hypothetical,_dissolved_and_defunct_titles "Do not use hypothetical, dissolved or defunct titles, including pretenders (real or hypothetical), unless this is what the majority of reliable sources use". Most of the sources on this page are self-published (press releases by the lady herself) and hence not RS. It is unclear to me how RS do refer to her (it seems they do so only very occasionally...). Furius (talk) 00:17, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose: Vast majority of English-language RS refer to the subject as a "Grand Duchess" (Examples: BBC, France 24, Radio Free Europe, Sunday Times, Politico, South China Morning Post, Dawn, ekatherimini, The Moscow Times, Reuters, NPR, The Age, CNN). I am actually hard-pressed to find any English-language RS that mentions her without the "Grand Duchess" title and found only one. --StellarHalo (talk) 08:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 25 June 2023