Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)/Archive 1

message: ===Uskub; Nov.1915:Prisoners Serbs:Prisoners Bulgars!Not Macedonian Slavs===
Prisonniers Serbes;Prisonniers Bulgars
Not Fyromians !Macedonian Slavs are Serbs & Bulgars !
Click presbes1.jpg
http://images.google.de/images?q=USKUB&hl=de&btnG=Google-Suche
=== 26dec.1944:Stettinius speaks about Yugoslav Propaganda for Macedonia===
U.S. State Department, Foreign Relations Vol. VII, Circular Airgram (868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944) by then Secretary of State E. Stettinius: “The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia emanating from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. “This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland” or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece”.
Vergina 14:52, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Macedonian Slavs]] are not nationality!

message: U.S. State Department, Foreign Relations Vol. VII, Circular Airgram (868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944) by then Secretary of State E. Stettinius: “The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia emanating from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. “This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland” or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece”.
Vergina 14:52, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  26dec.1944:Stettinius speaks about Yugoslav Propaganda for Macedonia

message: Establishment: 50% of  the Slavs people to state FYROM are Serbs
Vergina 17:52, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The people  of the state [[FYROM]] is disputed by [[Serbia]]

message: Happy 2005 everyone, I wish you all the best for the forthcoming year. It's the New Year's Eve, not a good time for an edit war! Get out, meet some friends, enjoy yourselves as much as you can, and we'll be there to discuss when it's time. Etz Haim 16:39, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Happy 2005 

message: Right, I'll unprotect this but noting the following.
# This is a controversial subject, but a NPOV version can be made.  I have no specialist knowledge in this area.
# Anon IPs should log in, but User:212.251.109.95's version appears to me to be bad faith and vandalism.  He/she may dispute the neutrality of this article, and even try to add different POVs, but replacement with an unwikified POV mess is trouble.  This anon should cite his sources and try to promote the inclusion of his POV in a friendly way, backed by those sources.  If he doesn't, I'll treat him as a vandal, which may mean 24 hour bans, but none of us wants to go there.
# User:VMORO shouldn't break the 3RR.  Someone else will detect the vandalism and revert it, and he shoudl familiarise himself with WP:VIP and WP:RFC.  This avoids edit wars and exasperation.  If he breaks the 3RR, then a 24 hour ban also will be appropriate.
Please try to be friendly with each other. Dunc|☺ 14:39, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a note: 3RR doesn't apply to reverting vandalism, if its really obvious vandalism. Edits with which you don't agree don't necessarily fall under "vandalism", especially not if made by other established editors. Zocky 14:04, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotecting 

message: I kindly ask the editor to rename "Macedonian Slavs" topic to "Macedonians". The people involved in discussion didn't show any proof that there are any "Macedonian Slavs" in existence anywhere in the world. Just check this google link for about 17000 documents macedonian site:.gov.au to see that Australia fully honours the right name of Macedonians.
Secondly, I also ask for a change of the references in all the pages where "Macedonian Slavs" are mentioned and substituted with "Macedonians" i.e. first and foremost the "Macedonian Slavs" page. 
Thirdly, as Macedonians have a country - Republic of Macedonia is that country (Constitution of Macedonia is to be found here Constitution), Macedonians should be moved out of the Category:Slavic Ethnic Groups [] (all mentioned there are "country-less") and put into the Category:Slavic Nations [].
It's a pitty that some people spend so much time and effort with shaky "historical" documents instead of just observing contemporary reality. All the individuals in the world have the human right of self-determination and self-declaration. Macedonians are not an exception.
:Dear friend, there's not such a thing as a specific "editor" for this or any other article here on Wikipedia. Articles are edited by the community, and disputes on controversial matters such as this are resolved by a process that relies on consensus and the neutral point of view policy. As for your objection, this article does not deprive you of your right of self-declaration, but equally enables both you and me (a Greek Macedonian) to call ourselves Macedonians. The fact that Greek Macedonians call themselves so is part of a contemporary reality too. Etz Haim 01:10, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Civility. Etz Haim 07:12, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Then send letters to the UN, the U.S. administration, all the scholars in "Slavonic studies", etc. Tell them they are wrong and demand what you think is your own right. And good luck - if you succeed in turning around the opinion of the rest of the world, I'm sure Wikipedia will follow suit rather quickly. Until then - don't complain about it here. VMORO
You really make me laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dear friend, try to use common sence for once and abord the fooolishness that you were instucted.I will NOT use in any census the term Macedonian, because I am Greek and Macedonians,as the ancient ones,are Greek,what do you expect?Those ones from Epirus for example they will not say I'm Greek, but Epirotis? 
You realy believe that the ancient Macedonians were Slavs, like you?
Who told you so? Your FYROM teacher? 
Try to justify your existence without trying to steal others heritage, because you are stating ludicrous comments
Kapnisma 12:54, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: "Hm, on a second thought, if we are descendants of Alexander the Great, than we are very dangerous people. That's the problem, you all believe that we descend from Alexander the Great, therefore this "fear" that we are very, very dangerous nation... ;-)"
Can't you see the smiley at the end? So I will delete it as you are taking it too seriously. The rest remains as it is.
--Kirev 13:50, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Kirev]]'s request 

message: Being Greek and Macedonian is as simple as being Greek and Athenian or Greek and Spartan. It is so simple. 
And do not forget that in your multinational country only half the citizens declare themselves as "Macedonians" while all citizens in Greek Macedonia declare themselves as Greek Macedonians.
== Macedonia was a forbidden term in Greece as late as 17-18 years ago - do you remember "Northern Greece? I do! 
Your country (Greece) is definately more multinational than the current Republic of Macedonia! Only in Greece is possible to have a foreign minister, called Pangaloss, who says that his parents are Albanians (and spoke Albanian at home), but him, himself is a Greek! And I know and have seen a lot of this "monolithic  Greekness" first hand! === 
You are wrong again. The term Macedonia was never forbidden in Greece. You say that you remember the term Northern Greece. Then you probably remember the song "Makedonia xakousti" one of the first songs young Greeks used to learn in elementary schools.
It is really funny to say that Greece is multinational, when 98% of the population are Greeks. As for the ex foreign minister Pangaloss, he never said that his parents are Albanians. He said that they come from the part of the Ottoman empire that now belongs to Albania and spoke Albanian at home but they were Greeks. They felt and knew they were Greeks although they used to live somewhere else even if they could not speak their language. I do not see anything curious. The same thing happened with Jews. When they returned to Palestine almost none could speak their language because they were speaking German, Russian,French etc. 
Finally do not forget that the whole problem did not existed untill after the second world war, and that when pre war Jugoslavia collapsed under the axis attack the citizens of what is now FYROM hoisted Bulgarian flags to salute the advancing Bulgarian army.Newcomer 22:59, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  How can you be a Greek and a Macedonian at the same time?! Are you a  hermaphrodite? A political mulato perhaps? 

message: The Macedonians in Greece participated (in huge numbers - formed the majority of the fighters overall) in the so called "Greek Civil War", only after they were promised, beforhand, by the Greek Comunist Party, to grant them a MACEDONIAN CULTURAL AUTHONOMY WITHIN GREECE afterwards! If you didn't know that, then guess why the Macedonians in the Yugoslavian (de facto Serbian) ocupation zone joined the Yugoslav Communist Party resistence the last (fighting the Invading Fascist Bulgarian Government Army was going to happen anyway, however).
As for saluting the invading army and waving the flags of the invaders...if you only saw the propaganda news-reels from Prague, when the German Army entered the city, you would had a different picture of the events, wouldn't you?
Obviously, you are shocked (then again, maybe not) by the very fact of excistence of an old nation such are the Macedonians. But if you read between the lines & dissregard the cheap propaganda created by the super powers of the time - do you really think that we THE MACEDONIANS dont't exist? Even today, after the huge decline, we number at least 3 million worldwide! Just how does one imagine to erase us - with enormous Nazi camp?
For a Greek (whatever that means), this matter is a sport - caffe talk and cheap entertainment for the (stupid) masses. For a Macedonian, however, this is a matter of life & death. Just think about it...
======You are partially right and partially wrong. 
1.During the axis occupation of Greece most of Slav-Macedonians in Greece declared themselves as Bulgarians and helped the axis authorities not only with informations but also forming armed paramilitary groups that participated in anti-partizan operations and killed many Greek civilians. Most of them were accused for collaboration with the axis forces, murders of civilians etc. and fled Greece after the war. 
2.After 1945 during the so called "third round" of the Greek civil war the Communist party of Greece (representing less than 10%) in order to gain support from Tito promised to the Slav-Macedonians in Greece to grant them a MACEDONIAN CULTURAL AUTHONOMY WITHIN GREECE afterwards!In fact this plan was first mentioned during the 20's by the Bulgarian Communist party. Can you mention any book, article, notice, report before 1920 that talks about a "Macedonian nation". Even after 1920 only the communists were speaking about it since it was a communist idea after all. Even today in Greece most communists are supporting you.
3.Who said that the Macedonians do not exist. We exist and we are here in Greek Macedonia feeling Greeks and Macedonians just like others feel Greeks and Spartans or Greeks and Ionians.
4.It is at least silly to talk about erasing of nations or "nazi camps". In Greek school books there are is not a single word against our neighbours while in FYROM the school books talk about "liberating" Greek cities from their Greek citizens. I really wonder who is dreaming of huge nazi camps.  To us the whole talk is about the name and history only. And talkink of History tell me why the ancient Macedonians were speaking only Greek? Why the ancient Macedonians adored only Greek Gods? Why they spread the Greek language and civilization all over the world? If they were a different nation wouldn't they have spread their own language and culture?
Also. Do not forget that the Slav-Macedonian communists soon after the occupation of Yugoslavia by the axis forces asked to join the BULGARIAN communist party. Simply because they felt Bulgarians. Tito tried very hard to create a resistance movement in the area which is now FYROM. For this reason he sent Tempo in your area. The first resistance groups appeared only in 1943 when the axis defeat was almmost sure. Just check who was general secretary of the communist party in your area and his history. But you probably do not learn the whole truth in schools of a communist regime.
Also check about Metodi Shatorov (Sharlo) who was the leader of the Macedonian communists. He wanted his men to join the Bulgarian Communist Party because it was more comfortable during the 1941-1944. Tito had him expelled, so Sharlo moved to Bulgaria where he died a hero's death as a partisan in the early days of September 1944. --Vladko 05:08, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  No, no, no...let's clear this stupid lie ones and for all. 

message: I demand that for the good of Wikipedia, the title of the article is immediately changed to Macedonians or at least Macedonians (ethnicity) and that all “Macedonian Slavs” references throughout are changed to “Macedonians.” Before anybody jumps to conclusions let me explain that the reason for my demand is purely practical and relates to the relevance of Wikipedia. As an encyclopedia, the goal of Wikipedia is to store knowledge and to inform people, but in the case of Macedonians, it fails to do both.
While the article itself ignores the Macedonian point of view and gets a few facts wrong, for the moment I am only focusing on the biggest mistake of all – the reference “Macedonian Slavs.” The reason I say that this term is wrong is not its historical nature but its practical use. The term “Macedonian Slav” is very rarely used today in media and official documents, except in the case of Greek correspondence. Major news channels such as CNN, BBC and Reuters, encyclopedias such as Britanicca and factbooks such as the CIA World Factbook use the term “Macedonians” in reference to the ethnicity Wikipedia currently calls “Macedonian Slavs”. International as well as personal documentation takes the term “Macedonian” as standard (I have lived in the U.K. and Belgium and my “Macedonian” nationality has never been disputed by any administration). The only country that disputes the usage of term “Macedonians” internationally is Greece. The biggest website to dispute the use of the term “Macedonians” is Wikipedia.
As it has been stressed several times, Wikipedia is by far the biggest generator of the term “Macedonian Slavs” on the Internet – not only is it the first hit on Google but its mirror pages follow very closely. Wikipedia is encyclopedia and as such it should not be active participant in the creation and distribution of any term, let alone a term that is considered derogatory by a whole nation. By keeping the rarely used term “Macedonian Slavs” over the widely used “Macedonians” (even as the historical debate continues), the Wikipedia is being manipulated into taking a side. In the end, what is really important about this article is that present-day Macedonians are, in fact, called Macedonians internationally, not that because of historical reasons Greece disputes the term “Macedonians.” --Ivica83 03:09, 9 June 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Immediate change of the term "Macedonian Slavs" into "Macedonians" 

message: Could the admins of the English Wikipedia, please move this article to Macedonians, or if that causes too much semantic problems (I doubt that, though), to Macedonians (ethnicity), Macedonians (ethnic group), Macedonians (nationality), Ethnic Macedonians? I could do that myself, but I don't want to be labeled as a "nationalist" - so I will elaborate the reasons why this drastic change should be made. ChrisO made a fine list of facts:
1) The Republic of Macedonia is inhabited by a people who usually call themselves "Macedonians". 
2) This meaning is ambiguous as it overlaps with the terms for the people who inhabit geographical Macedonia and the RoM itself (are the Albanians in Macedonia also "Macedonians"?), as well as the inhabitants of ancient Macedon. 
3) No other ethnic group calls themselves "Macedonians" as a term of ethnic identity. Therefore the term "Macedonians" as an ethnic identifier is exclusively confined to those whom we're currently calling "Macedonian Slavs".
4) However, "Macedonian Slavs" also has ambiguities - Bulgarians, Serbs etc who live in geographical Macedonia are Slavs, and (geographical) Macedonians, and therefore also "Macedonian Slavs". It also isn't the most commonly used term by the ethnic group in question. (my bolds)
In addition, I would suggest several other reasons:
5) No one has copyright over geographical terms. The Bosniaks article shows us an example - although the term Bosnia is probably a christian (Byzanine or Serb/Croatian) term, no one seriously forbids these people (who are mostly Muslims) to declare themselves Bosniaks freely, though they have openly declared themselves as Muslims or Bosnian Muslims, until the early 90's.(Macedonians have clearly identified themselves as Macedonians, not Macedonian Slavs, for over 65 years, though there are good examples of a clear macedonian identity before that) Although, the example is not entirely appropriate, following the logic of the "Macedonian Slavs" term, Bosniaks should be labeled "Bosnian Muslims", in order not to offend Serbs or Croats, who have more "historical rights" over the term. Not to mention plenty of US towns which are named according to Greek towns - Athens, Syracuse etc.
6) There is a certain chauvinism in using tribal suffixes when referring to modern nations. Consequently, the are no Serbians, but Serbian Slavs, no Croatians, but Croatian Slavs, etc. The "Slavs" suffix subtly implies the "racial purity" of the inhabitants of RoM, while ancient Macedonians remained "pure Greeks" (actually, there is no hard evidence that ancient Macedonians were Greeks - they were considered "barbarians")). So it is assumed that Slavs remained an isolated tribe for over 14 centuries, and then suddenly in the 20th century they began to annoy the "pure Greeks", randomly. Actually, it is logical to think that the Slavs mixed with local inhabitants - mostly Ancient Macedonians, Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks. Should I mention the Celtic, Bulgar, Serb, Norman, Latin, Epyrote, Byzantine, Turkish invasions over the region of Macedonia - some of these reigned for centuries, and although the slavic dialects prevailed, we surely cannot speak of Macedonian Slavs, just as we cannot speak of Britannic Anglosaxons, Norman Anglosaxons etc. The modern Greek nation is not a "pure" Hellenic nation, also - Slavic tribes have reached as far as Pellopponesus, in some northern areas of modern Greece (mostly Macedonia) semi-autonomous Slavic states were formed, some of them lasted more than a century. Their inhabitants... have they simply dissapeared? Moreover, most of the invasions I have mentioned above also occured in mainland Greece. Ironically, given the ethnic complexities of the region, on some occasions, it is possible that some of the hardcore greek nationalists, are actually "more slavic" than their northern counterparts.
7) But, enough history. Almost every, if not, all, official documents never mention a 
Macedonian Slav ethnicity. They use Macedonians, instead. Moreover, Macedonians declare themselves as Macedonians, never as Macedonian Slavs, in all countries, so no country (except Greece and unofficially, Bulgaria) actually denies the existence of a Macedonian nation, nor their right to declare themselves as Macedonians. See the CIA website, for example.
8)It has been said, but I'll say it again - "Macedonian Slavs" is not a commonly used name for the inhabitants of RoM. Of the encyclopedias I've encountered only MSN Encarta uses that term, while Britannica finds Macedonians a more appropriate term. Most major news agencies use "Macedonians" instead of "Macedonian Slavs". Actually, BBC and CNN with their reportages of the 2001 crisis used the term "Macedonian Slavs" , but their attitude was briefly changed. Ever since, they ALWAYS use the term "Macedonians". Zocky's Google test is a further indication about how "common", is the "Macedonian Slav" term.
9)The sad thing is, that, actually, Wikipedia makes ground for the common usage of the "Macedonian Slavs" term which is considered derogatory, even racist, by the vast majority of Macedonians. The right for self-determination is a basic human right. As an admin of the Macedonian Wikipedia I found it very hard to convince a wider macedonian public to participate in the macedonian wiki project - they immediatelly think that Wikipedia is not a "free Encyclopedia" before they even get to know the basic wiki concepts and culture (I highly condemn the macedonian vandalism that has occured on this page). This is mostly due to how they have been portrayed in sensitive articles concerning Macedonian history.
In conclusion, I find no moral, logical, historical and practical arguments for the current title of this article, and I personally find it offensive. I kindly ask the neutral admins observing this discussion to move the article to Macedonians (with a disambiguation link in the upper part), or Macedonians (ethnicity), Macedonian (ethnic group), Macedonian (nationality) or Ethnic Macedonians. Best regards. --FlavrSavr 03:18, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming proposal 

message: they dont know anything...if they went to any real sources for information other than greek(who think they rule all and own everything) people they would have made a much better and true page.  MACEDONIANS ARE MACEDONIAN...NOT GREEK...MACEDONIA CONQUERED GREECE AND ONE DAY ALL OF MACEDONIA WILL BE TOGETHER AGAIN!!!!!  MAKEDONIA ZA MAKEDONCITE!!!!!
:I'm sorry, I know that we are on the same side but your post doesn't help at all. The current status of Macedonians on the Wikipedia is indeed shaped by the Greek and Bulgarian views but in reality it doesn't have to do anything with the IQ of the authors/editors. The current problem is based only on the low activity of Macedonians on these pages, that is the absence of the Macedonian side in the discussion, but this is gradually changing. What we really need now is sober review of the arguments, a review that will be unbiased in the face of pressure and insults. I believe 100% that such a review will finally get Wikipedia in line with the rest of the world and accept the term "Macedonians" over the inacurrate and politically outdated term "Macedonian Slavs." --Ivica83 21:41, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia authors are not idiots. Actually there is no "author" in the classical meaning of this word, everyone has the right to contribute, that's why it's the Free Encyclopedia. --FlavrSavr 00:23, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  authors of wikipedia are IDIOTS!