Talk:Twelve Olympians

message: I was told that Demeter is not allowed to visit her daughter otherwise she would be happy and winter wouldnt be barren. Also Hades has earned a place as an Olympian, however with the way some of the Gods are missing at times or dont bother to show for meetings there is never more then twelve at a time (unless there is an emergency)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rikudemyx (talk • contribs) 05:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: Hades is the middle son, the order was Hestia first, Demeter second, Hera third, Hades fourth, Poseidon fifth and Zeus last. 82.17.221.173 (talk) 12:52, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Middle Son?

message: I never read this before (outside some bad TV show), source?
that is not actually true Aphrodite was the one he loved the most it was his favorite  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.238.25.115 (talk) 02:48, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Me either... and I believe it is factually untrue. I am removing it until it can be backed up So take it 17:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, Athena was indeed his favorite. It even says so in The Odyssey and The Iliad. Those books also give the impression that Athena actually had her own aegis; contrary to what this anonymous guy said. Aphrodite wasn't even Zeus' daughter anyway; her father was Uranus. Nevertheless, nobody succeeded Zeus. (Huey  45 (talk) 12:55, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

text: Actually, that's a highly debated topic, Zeus was actually believed to be Aphrodite's father with Dione as the mother, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY OTHER CRAP?, Athena sprang from his head because he ate her mother, stupid, along with that and it was never stated that the shield was, there is no crap on these greek myth websites, different philosophers have different beliefs, Hesiod said that Uranus' genitals transformed into Aphrodite and Homer said that Zeus and Dione were her parents, Zeus remains King Of Olympus and King Of The Deities, Athena didn't even spend that much time in Olympus anyway, Athena mainly spent time on Earth raising Erichthonius of Athens, so Huey, you're wrong, Hesiod, Homer, Ovid and Virgil told different tales and Homer said that Aphrodite was Zeus and Dione were Aphrodite's parents, Athena didn't succeed Zeus and he remains the king of deities, so, both of you are technically wrong because it's debated whether Aphrodite's father was Zeus or Uranus, Athena was never stated as Zeus' favourite nor was Aphrodite, Huey, you're wrong because Aphrodite's parentage was debated along the greeks themselves, I still agree with you that Zeus hasn't been succeeded but also all three of you are wrong because if anything, his favourite was arguably Artemis with her being the one he treated the best, he phisically and/or emotionally hurt a lot of his children, Artemis being the one he mistreated the least but most importantly Zeus was never succeeded by anyone, Aegis was also probably given to her by Perseus. 82.17.221.173 (talk) 01:10, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Athena succeeded Zeus 

message: Quoting the article: "The Olympians gained their supremacy in the world of gods after Zeus led his siblings to victory in war with the Titans; Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Hestia, and Hades were siblings; all other Olympians are usually considered the children of Zeus by various mothers, except for Athena, who in some versions of the myth was born of Zeus alone. Additionally, some versions of the myth state that Hephaestus was born of Hera alone as Hera's revenge for Zeus' solo birth of Athena."
I think Aphrodite wasn't a child of Zeus either? She was born from the sea when Cronus cut off Uranus' genitals and threw them into the sea. --Lareine 14:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From Plato's Symposium (180 d-e):   ... there are two goddesses of that name, ...  One is an older deity, the motherless daughter of Uranus, the god of heaven: she is known as Urania, or Heavenly Aphrodite.  The other goddess is younger, the daughter of Zeus and Dione: her name is Pandemos, or Common Aphrodite. --VonWoland 17:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So which Aphrodite was one of the Twelve Olympians?  The part of the article that Lareine quoted above implies that it was Zeus's daughter.  But the current article seems to imply that it was the older Aphrodite. - Shaheenjim (talk) 02:05, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect it was Zeus's daughter, since all the other classical ones are siblings or children of Zeus.  The edit that changed it to be the older Aphrodite was made by 189.169.100.74 on 15 February 2007, and that guy never made another edit.  Seems unreliable.  I'm changing it back.  But if you have reason to believe that I'm wrong, feel free to change it back again. - Shaheenjim (talk) 02:14, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Your story about multiple goddesses named "Aphrodite" is very far-fetched and quite frankly sounds like nonsense. There are all sorts of conflicting stories in Greek mythology about a whole range of personalities and it seems to be standard practice to just present them as alternative stories rather than making up explanations involving multiple people. Anyway, most people would say Aphrodite is the daughter of Uranus, simply due to Botticelli's "The Birth of Venus" if nothing else. (Huey45 (talk) 12:55, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

text: We are talking about myths here. Myths aren't real, so they don't follow the rules of our reality. They are stories, told by people, living in cultures. Cultures change, people change, stories change. Stories don't have to be consistent or logical. There can be multiple versions of one story, and there can't be an official one. 
Wikifan153 (talk) 21:39, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The birth of Aphrodite? 

message: If one were to try to attach a specific source for each statement in this article one would soon perceive what is too pat or downright misleading in this account. Some reading might be required. --Wetman 11:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: I've heard nothing of Hercules being an Olympian, only him becoming god of strength upon death, but never an Olympian. Therequiembellishere 23:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Heracles was originally a son of Hera and Zues, so techniquilly he was an olympian but not one on the council, which is made up of the twelve older Olympians, minus Hepheastes [I don't know if I spelled that right(God of fire and forge also called vulcan)] and Hades. Then Hades tricked Heacles into drinking a potion that made him Mortal. In the end of it all Heracles actually perishes. I forget how though.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.220.158.143 (talk) 02:23, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Ugh. Heracles is NOT an Olympian. Neither is Hades. The 12 Olympians are
Zeus, Poseidon, Demeter, Hera, Hephaestus, Hermes, Aphrodite, Dionysus, Athena, Artemis, Apollo,and Ares. Hestia was one of the originals but gave up her place for Dionysus to keep the peace.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.67.135.150 (talk) 00:31, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Upon his death is mortal half burned away and his immortal half became an Olympian who sat at Zeus' right hand 135.23.111.239 (talk) 05:28, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

text: I think what they mean is he was an Olympian as in the species of deity not one of the twelve major deities known as the twelve Olympians and no, that's not at all what happened, Dionysus and Hestia both COULD  be the twelfth olympian, it's highly debated who was the twelfth olympian, and the article clearly states that Zeus, Hephaestus, Hera, Apollo, Ares, Hermes, Poseidon, Demeter, Artemis, and Hestia or Dionysus as the Twelve Olympians, Dionysus OR Hestia, Dionysus OR Hestia, all of the Twelve Olympians are original major deities, it's just debated who was the twelfth olympian just Hephaestus is one of the twelve Olympians, it's just debated who was the twelfth. 82.17.221.173 (talk) 01:32, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heracles? 

message: 03:29, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Hades never tried to overthrow Zeus, Poseidon did a lot of times and he's one of them, the misconception that Hades was jealous of Zeus comes from assuming that Hades, just because he was ruler of The Underworld that he was jealous when actually, Hades was very happy ruling the Underworld and lived a glamourous life in the Underworld, so wrong, honestly, Hades was actually one of the nicer greek deities, Poseidon tries to steal the throne from Zeus a lot and he's one of the twelve. 82.17.221.173 (talk) 01:43, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hades 

message: This article is very confused as to what constitutes one of the Twelve Olympians. Olympian-dwelling god and the Twelve who sit on the heavenly council (in the manner of a tradtional Greek council of elders, cf. Homer) should be distinguished from one another.  Olympian-dwellers include all the plethora of attendant gods from Hebe, to Themis, Dione, Leto, the Muses, the Graces, Eros, etc, etc. (as in Homer and Hesiod). "The supreme Twelve" were rather standardized in classical times, mostly following the rank suggested by Homer, but with a few localised variations. --Theranos 21:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but there are 13 gods listed as the "Twelve Olympians." Seeing as Demeter is listed in the following sentence and further down, during the hierarchy she is listed further down, so maybe her inclusion in this is a mistake? At the moment, I'm going to assume so, and if anyone feels justified in otherwise leaving her in that original list, feel free to revert it. -Demitel (talk) 13:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What a bunch of idiots. Of course Dionysus is one of the twelve Olympians. Take a look at the Parthenon frieze of the 12 gods, or a hundred other pieces of Greek art.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.118.226.136 (talk) 08:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that his suggestion is a variation of the 12. Dionysus and Hades were significant gods but not part of the 12. Additionally, among the twelve, there were 6 men and 6 women. - Sthenel (talk) 21:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Like any scholarly dispute, we should show all sides neutrally rather than decide which is correct. If there are different opinions among scholars and sources about the exact makeup of the list we should give all of the significant variations, while indicating if one is most common.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 02:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Burkert, Greek Religion p.125 "The Greeks came to assemble their most important gods in a soceiety of twelve. The number is fixed; some names vary, especially Hestia/Dionysos." The author provides a full bibliography of sources, and then describes the 12 Olympians of the Parthenon frieze (i.e. including Dionysos). The removal of this god from the list of 12 is simply incorrect. --Lysianna (talk) 10:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "What we were taught" isn't a universal constant. What I was taught is that the Greek mythology was assembled from the mythologies of various groups and localities. I was taught that local centers of worship had different views of the importance and role of various deities. I was taught that later writers, including the Roman Ovid, molded and streamlined the modern perception of the classical gods, but that the original versions were not so neat or even consistent. It's quite possible that the citizens of Athens had a different list of the 12 Olympians than the citizens of Smyrna. It isn't our job to either enforce "what we were taught", nor any other single orthodoxy. Our job, as Wikipedia editors, is to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. If those sources disagree then we summarize all their viewpoints. Pick up any work of scholarship on ancient Greek religious practices and you'll see there aren't pat answers - rather it's the messy work of anthropology and history. Some places worshipped Aphrodite as the goddess of fertility, while others worshipped Demeter or Hera. The sun god may be Apollo or Helios, depending on time and place. It's a mess. Rather than try to straighten it out we should just describe the mess.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 11:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats correct, however from the body of Greek literature you can draw some generalizations. Homeric epic is dominated by 12 gods. The same re-occur in Greek cult. A survey of Pausanias makes it readily apparent which were the 12 predominate cult gods. Greek art also reveals the same combination of figures again and again. There were regional variations of course, but these should not be given more weight than they deserve. The only mythology of 12 Olympians is the story of Gigantomachy and division of the divine honors by Zeus at the council of Mecone in which the combatants were awarded the title of "Olympian."  --Lysianna (talk) 11:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusion over "Twelve Olympians" 

message: Exactly what this word "cowardly" talks about?Ares had ALWAYS left his soldiers to die and went to hide to save himself. - Sthenel 09:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I- What?? It's not 'cowardly' to save yourself. 2601:603:4901:1E30:554D:50D8:8B93:82F1 (talk) 00:23, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ares is the cowardly god of war 

message: Just one word on that. Hades although a Cronides was never counted part of the 12 Olympians.
He was the ruler and most important God of the Underworld, a Chtonios God and not Olympian as he according to the legend he was living within the earth and didn t have a palace on Olympus.
So it is a mistake to be referred as part of the Olympian Pantheon  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Italiotis (talk • contribs) 10:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: On Hades(pluto) issue

message: Technically there are fourteen (in all) Olympians, and it is debated between many which 12 are the twelve olympians. Hades, Dionysus, Demeter, and Hestia are the ones that seem to be the ones that are argued over. I agree with the comment above, for Hades really doesn't live on Mount Olympus, but what about the others?
Also, don't you think it would be nice if the article included the roman names too, but still mention that the Greek names were the ones made up first?
user:Divya da Animal Lvr  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.163.234 (talk) 21:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Olympian Alternates 

message: Ok, please someone revert this to a proper version meta (talk) 20:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The vandal came back.  Somebody get the banstick?  --75.146.61.185 (talk) 23:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism in names 

message: My source is: Olympians;  The Oxford Companion to World mythology. David Leeming. Oxford University Press, 2004. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press.  Solihull Libraries.  5 January 2008  <http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Main&entry=t208.e1186>
:Although usually referred to as twelve in number, there were really fourteen Olympians, unless we discount the relatively late addition of Dionysos, the demotion of Hestia, and the designation of Hades as one of the chthomioi, the deities of the depths of the earth. 
Aatomic1 (talk) 20:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the above source is the best way to handle it - note that 12 is a common number though the actual set of 12 varies, and then delineate the variances and explain why. I've got to say - hard to exclude Demeter on any basis. My understanding is that she's actually a Greek re-interpretation of the more ancient amorphous "Goddess" - you know all the Woman of Willendorf statues. She is the explanation for the seasons, a representative of the Mother in the maiden-mother-crone archetype, a child of Chronus and Rhea, and generally all-round Olympian. Phyesalis (talk) 16:24, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Uninvolved

message: *I agree with Bella Swan, and that is why I proposed to underscore in the main text of the article that there were about 10 undisputed gods and some others sometimes included and sometimes not in the "12", stating the sources we've already gathered here. Anyway, I'll go on within the next days proposing a text, after checking some additional sources I have in mind, and then we'll see if my proposal will be accepted. Any other proposals are welcomed of course, but I do think it is high time we went one step forward by proposing text versions for the issue in dispute.--Yannismarou (talk) 11:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Going one step forward

message: Why don't you guys just put whatever you think is right in that article and just leave like that. Make the major eidts that you want or whatsoever, then just leave it protected with whoever is protecting this page. If you like Demeter so much, then put her back in that and stop making this a big whole thing. If excluding Hades for the 12 makes everyone so happy, then just take him off the page and continue with all the edits that you want to do. You guys didn't really have to put so much thought about this, geez. (Carlo_ms06 ct</font> 08:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ...just put whatever you think is right in that article and just leave like that. Thats what we've been trying to do. The page can't stay permanently protected, thats not a good option for any Wiki article. I'll take your lack of interest to indicate we're never gonna see the citation we've been asking you to provide if you insist on continuing the edit war. That being said, Yannismarou, I'm content with whatever prose you decide, however I'm still yet to see any printed, reliable references naming Hades as an Olympian. Brando130 (talk) 16:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: One Solution

message: 1. The canonical Twelve (which Greek students are instructed in) are Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Hestia, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Athena, Hephaestus, Hermes. This is based on the altar of the Twelve Gods in the Agora of Athens (extant).
2. The frieze on the front of the Parthenon depicts the Twelve Gods but Hestia is replaced by Dionysus who was a more important god in the Athenian festival calendar.
3. Plato's 12 from http://www.winterscapes.com/sannion/twelve.htm :
"Plato in the Laws 828 connected the Twelve Gods with the twelve months, and proposed that the final month be devoted to rites in honor of Plouton and the spirits of the dead, implying that he considered Haides to be one of the Twelve. In the Phaedrus 246 e-f he aligns the Twelve with the Zodiac and would exclude Hestia from their rank."
N.B. The Athenians had a thirteenth leap-month, which may have been re-assigned by Plato to Plouton-Hades. In the actual Athenian calendar both the 12th and 13 months were dedicated to Poseidon. However, Plato is speaking of an idealised city with a perfected calendar.
4. Greece beyond Athens. There were numerous regional variations. The Olympian Twelve at the shrine of Olympia itself was quite unusual. http://www.winterscapes.com/sannion/twelve.htm
"At Kos Ares and Hephaitos are left behind, replaced by Herakles and Dionysos. (Gratia Berger-Doer, "Dodekatheoi," in Lexicon Iconographicum Mythologiae Classicae (LIMC), vol. 3 (1986), 646-58.) Herodotos (2:43-44) agrees with this and counts Herakles as one of the Twelve, while Lucian adds Asklepios to Herakles as a member of the Twelve, without explaining which two had to give way for them. Pindar (Olympian Odes 10.49) and Apollodoros (1.251), however, disagree with this. For them Herakles is not one of the Twelve Gods, but the one who established the cult of the Twelve by setting up a series of six altars honoring pairs of deities and performing sacrifices to them by the banks of the Alpheios river at Olympia. Thankfully we do not have to guess who comprised the Dodekatheon in this form, for information has come to light at Olympia itself. According to Wilamowitz (Der Glaube 1.329) the Twelve Gods included Zeus Olympios, Poseidon, Hera, Athene, Hermes, Apollon, the Kharities, Dionysos, Artemis, the Alpheios River, and the Titans Kronos and Rheia."
5. Athenian vase paintings. Various combinations of the Olympian gods occur. Dionysus rather than Hestia occurs in the Gigantomachia. In scenes of feasting gods either Hestia or Dionysus is shown. Hestia is usually paired with Demeter in the seating order. [See The Beazley Archive for examples www.beazley.ox.ac.uk.] --Lysianna (talk) 20:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Twelve Olympians article should also be synchronised with the wikipedia article Chthonic, which discusses the difference between Olympian and Chthonic god cults. --Lysianna (talk) 10:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Thanks everybody for their helpful edits and providing of sources. I just add that in the most prominent modern Greek encyclopedia "Papyros-Larousse-Britannica" the 12 are the one indicated by Lysianna and mentioned in the article. I think that most sources agree that Demeter was one of the Canonical 12. Its presence there cannot easily be disputed. But Hades should also be mentioned. Thus, I propose a new text for the first two paragraphs, which are now edited as follows:
"The Twelve Olympians, also known as the Dodekatheon (Greek: Δωδεκάθεον < δωδεκα, dodeka, "twelve" + θεον, theon, "of the gods"), in Greek religion, were the principal gods of the Greek pantheon, residing atop Mount Olympus.  There were, at various times, seventeen different gods recognized as Olympians, though never more than twelve at one time.
Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Ares, Hermes, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Hestia, Hades and Dionysus are usually included in the traditional twelve Olympians. Hebe, Helios and Persephone are other important gods, goddesses, which may also be included in a group of twelve. Persephone spent six months of the year in the underworld (causing the barren landscape of winter and fall), and was allowed to return to Mount Olympus for the other six months in order to be with her mother, Demeter, during this time, would be in woe and not with the Olympians. And, although Hades was always one of the 12 Olympians, his home in the underworld of the dead made his connection to the Olympians more tenuous." (Hades isn't an Olympian. Just saying)
I propose to reedit them as follows:
"The Twelve Olympians, also known as the Dodekatheon (Greek: Δωδεκάθεον < δωδεκα, dodeka, "twelve" + θεον, theon, "of the gods"), in Greek religion, were the principal gods of the Greek pantheon, residing atop Mount Olympus.  The classical scheme of the Twelve Olympians (the Canonical Twelve of art and poetry) comprises the following gods: Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Ares, Hermes, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Hestia. The respective Roman scheme comprises the following gods: Jupiter, Juno, Neptunus, Ceres, Mars, Mercurius, Vulcanus, Venus, Minerva, Apollo, Diana and Vesta. 
There was, however, a great deal of fluidity when it came to who was counted among their number in antiquity; other important gods are sometimes included by certain sources in the group of Twelve replacing some of the above Canonical 12. The first ancient reference of religious ceremonies for the 12 Olympians is found in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes. Around 400 BC Herodorus included in his Dodekatheon the following deities: Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Athena, Hermes, Apollo, Alpheus, Cronus, Rhea and the Charites. Wilamowitz agrees with Herodorus' version of the 12. There were also numerous regional variations in ancient Greece. For instance, at Kos Ares and Hephaestus are left behind, replaced by Heracles and Dionysus. Herodotus agrees with this and counts Heracles as one of the Twelve, while Lucian adds Asklepios to Herakles as a member of the Twelve, without explaining which two had to give way for them. Pindar and Apollodoros, however, disagree with this. For them, and Herodorus as well, Heracles is not one of the Twelve Gods, but the one who established their cult. Plato connected the Twelve Olympians with the twelve months, and proposed that the final month be devoted to rites in honor of Pluto and the spirits of the dead, implying that he considered Hades, one of the basic chthonic deities to be one of the Twelve. In Phaedrus Plato aligns the Twelve with the Zodiac and would exclude Hestia from their rank.  Hebe, Helios and Persephone are other important gods, goddesses, which are sometimes included in a group of twelve. Persephone spent three months of the year in the underworld (causing the barren landscape of winter), and was allowed to return to Mount Olympus for the other nine months in order to be with her mother, Demeter, during this time, would be in woe and not with the Olympians."
There are many sources to add (Lysianna helped a lot with her last edit), and I'll add them in the main article, but I want first to agree on the text. Well, any proposals or comments?--Yannismarou (talk) 19:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work! The only inclusion I'd argue for would be to add that Hades is phased out in later groupings due to his chthonic associations. The sentence "For instance, at Kos[,] Ares and Hephaestus are left behind..." could use an extra comma. And I'd rewrite the last sentence. Peresphone does not cause the barren landscape, Demeter does, as punishment for the separation. Also the wording conflicts so as to imply that Demeter isn't in Olympus during the 9 months P isn't in the underworld. How about "Persephone, daughter of Demeter, was forced to spend 3 months a year in the underworld. During this time, Demeter withheld her graces and caused the barren landscape of winter, until her daughter returned to Mount Olympus."? --Phyesalis (talk) 19:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal

message: The User:68.92.250.7 seems willing to start an edit war by adding Dionysus in the Twelve. What about it? That's how the whole problem started previously. - Sthenel (talk) 22:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reverted one of his edits, since a consensus has been established. If the user wishes to, he/she can bring a new discussion here to the talk page. El Greco(talk) 00:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Again the same problems 

message: Shouldn't an article like this go beyond a simple exploration of myth? I can site a number of sources that specifically state the Greek religion did not use myth as a doctrinal base. Mythos provides a very limited and incomplete perception of this subject. And other question: I read up a little ways someone was using the Sci-Fi Channel as a source, how is that at all scholarly? --151.201.147.150 (talk) 19:12, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Sci-Fi citation was probably vandalism; if you have information with reliable sources, please post them here and I (or someone else) can fix it for you ;) Thank you! BlackPearl14[talkies!•contribs!] 02:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beyond Myth 

message: The article is looking good so far, but the last paragraph in the introduction is odd. It starts out well, but then devolves rather awkwardly into lists and a few random bits of information. I like the first sentence, and I think the establishment of the 12 from their victory over the Titans should be included. 24.83.177.183 (talk) 00:42, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any problem with it.  If you want to add a transition, that'd be fine.  But the Twelve Olympians in most lists are related, and that's worth noting. - Shaheenjim (talk) 03:13, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Run on 

message: asklepios should be spelled as asclepius. 24.119.203.225 (talk) 22:29, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You misspelled misspelling. You're right though. --90.206.122.228 (talk) 18:37, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: mispelling

message: I followed the link to Phaedrus in footnote 10 and first of all there's no 246f there (247a is apparently what was meant). It doesn't say anything about the zodiac, which would have surprised me because I'm pretty sure the zodiac didn't exist at the time of Plato. I have lots of books laying around about the history of astrology in Mesopotamia and ancient Greece and will return when I come across a more specific reference, but in the meantime if anyone else has more info, do share.Yonderboy (talk) 08:12, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Zodiac misattribution?

message: Currently, the table lists the Roman equivalent of Apollo as Apollo. The Apollo article says that he had no Roman equivalent, but was often referred to as (NO HE WASN'T)Phoebus. However, there is a "citation needed" after it. The article on Phoebus says that it had more to do with the sun, sometimes referring to (WRONG!! IDIOT)Helios. This will probably evolve into some debate, because of the reasons above, but I propose that Apollo should be changed to Phoebus.(DON'T TALK IF YOU AREN'T SMART!!!) --15lsoucy (talk) 22:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phoebus/Apollo/Helios 

message: The beginning states that Eros is depicted alongside his mother Aphrodite. Everyone knows how controversial Eros' lineage is and I hope we could take that out of the top. --15lsoucy (talk) 13:51, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eros 

message: I edited the table listing the Classical Olympians to include both Hestia (who was strangely absent from all lists) and Dionysos. So there's now fourteen gods and goddess in the list for people to choose their favorite from. :P
(Thats not right), I read the old discussion about who should be in and who not, and I have to say that this is not a matter of personal preference or "playing favorites". The classical Twelve Olympians (with the Hestia/Dionysos switch up) were taught to everybody (I hope) as early as in the elementary school, so there should be really no confusion about them. SamSandy (talk) 23:40, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edited the table of Classical Olympians 

message: The table states which generation they are, but where does this idea appear in the ancient writers? Please could this be investigated and then included in the article so as to explain the generations. Thanks 78.146.132.102 Classics (talk) 08:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Generation explanation 

message: Down below on Aura you need a period at the end of that sentence. All the other sentences have periods so I'm figuring this one should have one as well. The only reason why I won't change it is because right now I really feel like I shouldn't get in trouble with Wikipedia. Please do it for me if you don't mind.-James Pandora Adams  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.176.143.14 (talk) 00:37, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aura??? 

message: Hello Everyone,
This is my first attempt at editing a wiki article so before I go further I thought I’d first communicate with you that are experts and interested in “Greek gods."
I don’t feel that this article will ever be truly correct until we separate the concept of the “Cults of Twelve Gods” from the concept of “Olympian Gods.”  There were many “Cults of 12” in the Eastern Mediterranean.  There were many Olympian gods.  I doubt that any given piece of ancient Greek literature ever mentioned exactly twelve.   The wiki article’s first figure, the Monsiau engraving, is titled “The Twelve Olympians,” but the notes for the image list fifteen gods!  It seems like modern writers, beginning in the 20th century, have tried to force the two concepts together.  I believe that the article should be re-named simply “Olympian Gods” and discuss the various gods mentioned as “Olympian” by the ancient sources.
PLEASE SEE my complete discussion on my User Page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:1Greenjack1
Thanks, Jack Green Jack Green 16:04, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Olympians vs Cults of 12 

message: The table lists "The Twelve Olympians" and is supposed to give the Greek name and the Roman name, e.g. Zeus and Jupiter. One entry is problematic: Apollo.
"Apollo" is the name commonly used in English. As usual, English refers to Greek names in their Latin transcription. (Consider Plato for Platon, Alexander for Alexandros, Aristides for Aristeides. The same happened with Apollo, whose Greek name is Apollon.
If the list purports to give Greek names and Roman names, then we should do so and use Apollo's Greek name, which is Apollon.
The list was always confusing as it suggested that Apollo's Greek and Roman name were identical. He is indeed the odd one out: in most entries, the two names are entirely different as the deities mentioned are not originally gods with two names but two gods - one Greek, one Roman - that were later identified. Apollo/n seems to be simply adopted by the Romans from the Greeks and spelled in a Roman way. Still, the Greek name and the Roman name are slightly different.
Str1977 (talk) 06:29, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: While 'Apollo' is the standard form for English, I think Apollon should be used for the specific context of his Greek name vs Roman. I tried to make that change in the chart, only to be overruled by another editor. Xcalibur (talk) 02:01, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

text: My compromise is to provide both English and Greek spelling. I think that will work. Xcalibur (talk) 04:44, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Apollo/n

message: Recently Pandia, a very minor and somewhat obscure mythological personage (not even always a goddess), was recently added to the list of "Minor residents of Mount Olympus". I removed it, asking for a source that she was considered such, but it was added back again (no source given). If we really want this list to include all such minor, obscure and uncertain figures, we would need to add hundreds more. In any case we need to make any such list well defined and supported with cites, not just a random and arbitrary list of minor Greek gods.  Paul August ☎ 13:06, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Per your request I remove it. But I still don't agree with what you said because we cannot just decide whether a god or deity is minor or not based on our own opinions. Her name was also added to other templates by other users that's why I thought including her name on the list would be a good idea. Keivan.fTalk 00:00, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure what you don't agree. That Pandia is a minor figure in Greek mythology is clear from reading our article, and the sources cited there. Paul August ☎ 01:36, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

text: @Paul August Let's forget Pandia. I was looking at Zeus' article and I realized that on the article it is said that Hebe, Hephaestus and Ares may have been born merely by Hera. As of Hebe in an alternative version it's said that "Her mother Hera became pregnant merely by eating a lettuce plant when dining with Apollo". As Athena was also born by Zeus without recourse to Hera, it's said that she probably bore Hephaestus alone as a revenge. But what about Ares? In a part of Iliad Zeus tells Ares "And yet I will not long endure to see you in pain, since you are my child, and it was to me that your mother bore you", which obviously means that Ares is his son and Homer supports this theory. In addition to Homer, it seems that Hesiod also lists Ares as a son of Zeus and Hera in his famous Theogony and as you can see Ares is mentioned as Zeus' son on this Wikipedia article and the source is Theogony 912–923. But when I was searching on the internet I found out that in another tradition, Ares also could have been Hera's parthenogenous child. She got herself pregnant by using a magical herb and did this as revenge at Zeus for his birthing of Dionysus whom he implanted under the skin of his thigh (after the death of his mother Semele) where he remained until he was ready to be born. It seems that it is the reason why on Zeus' article it's said that Ares could be produced only by Hera. The main problem is that online sources can't be trusted for these kinds of statements. Do you have any idea on which ancient text (or even a reliable book) this story has been mentioned? Maybe on another part of Iliad or Theogony? Keivan.fTalk 07:54, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  The only ancient source I'm aware of for such a story is Ovid Fasti 5.229–259, which tells the story of how Juno, upset that Jupiter had produced Minerva without her, was made pregnant with Mars by touching a certain flower. Paul August ☎ 15:21, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  So it's a part of the Roman mythology that Mars was the son of Juno alone. Interesting. Do all of the sources mention him as the parthenogenous child of Juno? And as of Ares, it seems that he was the son of Hera by Zeus. Do you think it's OK to remove that note on Zeus' article which says that he was perhaps produced by Hera alone or should we ask the others' opinions as well? Keivan.fTalk 23:40, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't know what to make out of Ovid's story. It could be just be an Ovidian invention. Or it could be Ovid knew of the story, from sources no longer available to us. And just because Ovid, of course, used the Roman names for the gods involved, does not mean that the story was not a Greek story in which Hera produced Ares alone. I can't say. We really need to know how modern scholars treat this story. Paul August ☎ 01:44, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, but I think the Romans had changed some parts of the original Greek myth and that's why as you said we have to find out how modern scholars treat this story. Do you know any user on Wikipedia who might be able to help? Keivan.fTalk 04:20, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You might ask this question here. Paul August ☎ 11:08, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Pandia?

message: This page was recently movved to " "List of Twelve Olympians", I've moved the page back, since I think the page is more than just a list. Paul August ☎ 11:47, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. It's not just a list. Keivan.fTalk 08:50, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: If anyone wants to move this page, I think he/she probably should give a request at WP:RM. Keivan.fTalk 08:52, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Move of page to "List of Twelve Olympians"?

message: I recently removed the subsections of the "Lists" section now titled "Members of other twelve god cults" and "Other residents of Mount Olympus", but my edit was reverted by .
In my view these lists are inherently problematic, not very useful, and probably ought to be removed. In particular inclusion in either of these lists needs to be sourced, and at present adequate sourcing is almost wholly lacking.
I am creating a separate subsection for  the discussion of each list separately. 
Paul August ☎ 17:49, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: As its been a week, and no one has resonded here, I'm going to go ahead and delete the section "Other residents of Mount Olympus", since I suspect that might be less objectionable to the IP. Paul August ☎ 17:15, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

text: Another week and a half or so, and still no response here, so I'm going to delete the other section ""Members of other twelve god cults". Paul August ☎ 22:31, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal to remove "other" lists

message: While a list of other residents of Mount Olympus, has some relevance, currently this list is problematic. Besides those mentioned in the body of the article:  Heracles, Hebe, the Muses, the Graces, Iris, Dione, Eileithyia, the Horae, and Ganymede, the current list is otherwise completely unsourced. Any we list here need to be sourced. But I think sourcing for such a list will be difficult. 
While there were obviously a great many residents of Olympus, which can be inferred, from various ancient sources, doing so on our parts would constitute original research, and so of course is not allowed. I've spent a fair amount of time looking around, and I can find no adequate sources for any of the others on the current list. Perhaps some reliable secondary source gives such a list we could use (so far I haven't found one) but absent such a list, there will be many obvious residents of Olympus for which no adequate sourcing will be available. This will mean that any such sourceable list will be necessarily uncomprehensive, unrepresentative and idiosyncratic.
In any case (unless we decide to eliminate this list altogether first), I intend to prune this list to include only those members I can find adequate sourcing for, currently only those mentioned above: Heracles, Hebe, the Muses, the Graces, Iris, Dione, Eileithyia, the Horae, and Ganymede.
Paul August ☎ 17:49, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: The list "Other residents of Mount Olympus"

message: As this article is about the twelve Olympians, I don't think a list of members of other twelve god cults, is particularly relevant. However, if we are going to keep such a list, it needs to be redone. Its inappropriate as it now exists
Each member of such a list has to be sourced, and the list as a whole should either be a long, comprehensive list (with each entry having a source), or if not that, then a short, representative list of members which are discussed (and sourced) in the body of the article (currently those are: Cronus, Rhea, Alpheius, and the Graces). At present none of these things are true.
Paul August ☎ 17:49, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: The list "Members of other twelve god cults"

message: Currently this reads like an info sheet, under the assumption that the Olympians are known. What do historians and Hellenists believe about the origins of the mythology? 90.242.131.89 (talk) 02:39, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propose a section on historiography and mythical context 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:15, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: — Assignment last updated by Keely320 (talk) 17:40, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: HUM 202 - Introduction to Mythology