Talk:Headwater Diversion Plan (Jordan River)

message: *Managing Water for Peace in the Middle East: Alternative Strategies By Masahiro Murakami Published by United Nations University Press, 1995  p 296 second paragraph reads:-
Shortly before completion of the Israeli Water Carrier in 1964, an Arab summit conference decided to try to thwart it. Discarding direct military attack, the Arab states chose to divert the Jordan headwaters. Two options were considered: either the diversion of the Hasbani to the Litani and the diversion of the Banias to the Yarmouk, or the diversion of both the Hasbani and the Banias to the Yarmouk. The latter was chosen, with the diverted waters to be stored behind the Mukhaiba dam. 
That is plagiarism do not do it NoCal100...
*especially when you have used the same page as a reference...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 04:40, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: you might want to look at who actually inserted that text, and point your schoolmarmishly criticism at them . NoCal100 (talk) 04:47, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please keep comments civil, thanks. As for plagiarism, it is only plagiarism when information is used without citing the source.  If the source is cited, it's not plagiarism, it's "quoting a source". --Elonka 04:54, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

text: A better course of action here, would be to either edit the information, or simply add quote marks, rather than making charges of plagiarism. --Elonka 05:01, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Plagiarism

message: In 1964 when the Israel's National Water Carrier plan was nearing fruition the second Arab League summit conference voted on a plan which would circumvent it.The first Arab summit conference ratified the Arab strategy to thwart Israel’s NWC Plan. The strategy was designed to divert the Jordan’s tributaries and prepare the Arab armies for the defence of the engineering operations. Shemesh, Moshe (2008) Arab Politics, Palestinian Nationalism and the Six Day War: The Crystallization of Arab Strategy and Nasir's Descent to War, 1957-1967 Sussex Academic Press,  p 67 The Arab and North African states chose to divert the Jordan headwaters rather than the use of direct military intervention,....it was the Israeli diversion that prompted President Nasser to call for the First Arab Summit in January 1964 of the heads of state for the region and North Africa. Iwao Kobori, Michael H. Glantz (1998) Central Eurasian Water Crisis: Caspian, Aral, and Dead Seas United Nations University Press,  p 129-130 Shlaim, Avi (200) ibid pp 229-230 In January 1964 an Arab League summit meeting convened in Cairo. The main item on the agenda was the threat posed by Israel's diversion of water from the north to irrigate the south and the expected reduction in the water supplies available to Syria and Jordan. The reaction of the summit to this threat was deadly serious. The preamble to its decision stated,
:The establishment of Israel is the basic threat that the Arab nation in its entirety has agreed to forestall. And Since the existence of Israel is a danger that threatens the Arab nation, the diversion of the Jordan waters by it multiplies the dangers to Arab existence. Accordingly, the Arab states have to prepare the plans necessary for dealing with the political, economic and social aspects, so that if necessary results are not achieved, collective Arab military preparations, when they are not completed, will constitute the ultimate practical means for the final liquidation of Israel. The heads of State of the Arab League considered two options: 
#The diversion of the Hasbani to the Litani combined with the diversion of the Banias to the Yarmouk,
#The diversion of both the Hasbani and the Banias to the Yarmouk.
The Arab league plan selected was for the Hasbani and Banias waters to be diverted and stored in the Mukhaiba dam.The diversion consisted of:-
# Diversion of tributaries in Lebanon.
:A The upper Hasbani- the excavation of a canal from the Hasbani springs in the hasbaya region and a canal from the wadi Shab’a for carrying water to the kawkaba tunnels and from there to the Litani River. (This project would transport 40-60 million cubic metres of water annually).
:B. The Middle hasbani-two diversion points-tyhe first in the hasbani riverbed; the second in wadi sarid. The Hasbani ans Sarid would flow in a canal to the banias and from there to the Yarmuk. According to the plan, 20-30 million cubic metres of water would flow annually to Syria (if Lebanon did not divert the hasbani’s floodwater to the Litani, the Sarid canal could transport up to 60 million cubic metres of water a year).
:C. The Wazani Spring in the Lower Hasbani Riverbed-this would include an irrigation canal (carrying 16 million cubic metres of water a year) for local use in Lebanon; an irrigation canal in Syria (8 million cubic metres a year); and three pumping units to transport the Wanzani’s overflow to Syria via the Sarid-Banias canal at a rate of 26 million cubic metres a year.
:2. Diversions in Syrian territory
:A. Diversion of the Banias-The diversion plan for the banias called for a 73 kilometre long canal to be dug 350 metres above sea level that would link the banias with the Yamuk. The canal would carry the Banias’s fixed flow plus the overflow from the hasbani (including water from the Sarid and Wazani). The Banias diversion would provide 90 million cubic metres of water for irrigation of riverine areas. The designers calculated that eighteen months would be sufficient for executing the plan. The cost was estimated at five million Pounds Sterling (including two tunnels), that is, approximately two million pounds more than the Arab plan.
:B. The butayha Project-The Syrians feared that if the Arabs implemented their diversion plan, Israel would block the batayha Valley inhabitants, annual pumping of 22 million cubic metres from the Jordan as proposed in the Johnson plan. In order to guarantee the villagers their vital water supply, the Arab plan contained a proviso designed to incorporate primary and secondary canals from the Sea of Galilee.
:3. The water plans in Jordan.
:The construction of a dam in the Kingdom of Jordan (the Mukheiba dam on the Yarmuk River) was designed to hold 200 million cubic metres of water. Work on the dam would take 30 months at a cost of ten and one quarter million Pounds Sterling. The Mukheiba Dam (and the Makarin Dam) would hurt Israel if it was incorporated into the diversion plans for the Jordan River’s northern sources, and without the Mukheiba dam all of the diverted water would flow back to the Yarmuk and return to the Jordan’s riverbed south of the Sea of galilee. Excluding this plan, the rest of the Jordan’s water projects correspond with the main parts of the Johnson Plan.
Shemesh, Moshe (2008) Arab Politics, Palestinian Nationalism and the Six Day War: The Crystallization of Arab Strategy and Nasir's Descent to War, 1957-1967 Sussex Academic Press,  pp 49-50
Now re-written and re-inserted...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 05:55, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to be clear here, it's still not plagiarism if a source is included, though there may be copyvio issues. See Wikipedia:Plagiarism. --Elonka 17:58, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Thanks for spotting it and rewriting.  I agree that there was a copyvio, and am glad you were able to take care of it. :) I looked into who inserted the information, and it appears to have been , who isn't editing anymore. Might be worth checking through Itzse's article space contribs though to see if anything else needs fixing. --Elonka 03:06, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Plagiarised material rm

message: Most of the citations needed can be found in Water politics in the Jordan River basin....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 03:18, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations needed

message: This article is mainly footnote.  It hardly seems encyclopedic to me.  If it is factual and neutral it should be written in the body of the article.  No reader wants to be bothered with reading massive amounts of footnoted material.Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article by Footnote? 

message: The edit war over the "successful"/"unsuccessful" water projects is unnecessary , as it is "successful" in the source given, and should thus be left in. 
C.4 Unilateral implementation: 1955-1967
:The failure to develop a multilateral approach to water management reinforced unilateral development. Though the Unified Plan failed to be ratified, both Jordan and Israel undertook to operate within their allocations, and two major successful projects were undertaken: the Israeli National Water Carrier and Jordan's East Ghor Main Canal.
Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:28, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: and in fact if I am not mistaken, despite all sorts of problems, ..."Jordan was allowed to repair the canal; in exchange Jordan reaffirmed its adherence to the Johnston Plan quotas..."  It is still (and again) in effect and thus "successful."  Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. The reference says it was successful - that's it as far as wikipedia is concerned, unless another source is provided that explicitly says the projects were not successful. NoCal100 (talk) 00:44, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

text: the reference says explicitly it was a success. End of story. NoCal100 (talk) 23:09, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Please comment on edits, not editors. I know the word success has been included in the para, I put it there, since it is what the source says. You seem to want it removed, which is improper, as it is well sourced. If I misread you, and you are ok with the word, then my apologies, but then I'm at a loss as to what this section is all about. NoCal100 (talk) 02:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

text: less than 4 hours ago you posted "the reference says 17%...not a success." - so it seems you did not consider the argument 'finished a long time ago'. Please try to remain civil- accusations of "rambling" or "hot air from you"  are not civil. NoCal100 (talk) 04:03, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Successful? or not? 

message: Most of the "aftermath" section is not relevant to this article. The final paragraph discusses issues that arose 35 years after the Headwater Diversion Plan, and are related to the 1994 peace agreement between Israel and Jordan. On top of this, the given reference dose not even discus the success or lack thereof of the 2 projects mentioned in the "background" section. NoCal100 (talk) 00:44, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Aftermath means right after, not 35 years later - and the source you are citing does not refer to the Headwater Diversion Plan - which is this article's topic, nor even to any of the 3 projects. NoCal100 (talk) 23:08, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Aftermath: 1. 	something that results or follows from an event - Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006. The events you are describing are not a consequence pf the Headwater Diversion Plan, thus they do not belong. NoCal100 (talk) 02:38, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

text: My problem is that you appear to be disrupting wikipedia to make a point in you r personal conflict with me. Consider this another warning. NoCal100 (talk) 03:44, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aftermath 

message: All mention of Johnston plan to be removed as it doesn't mention the Arab plan to divert the headwaters, which was based on the McDonald plan...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 02:39, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the Johnston plan and reactions to it is quite relevant as background. Gatoclass seems to agree, as he has done a bit of work on that section. I am not entirely opposed to trimming that section down, if there's consensus for this. NoCal100 (talk) 03:37, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Please don't remove sourced material for which there appears to be consensus and replace it with "The MacDonald plan". That edit was borderline vanadlism. NoCal100 (talk) 03:43, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  All mention of johnston plan to be removed