Talk:George Pickingill

message: OK, let me be the spoilsport. This page is an account of the Pickingill legend as promoted by Bill Liddell without much support. George Pickingill existed and was a cunning man, so much is clear. However all the stuff about the nine covens etc is unverified and very contested. See Ronald Hutton's Triumph of the Moon for an analysis.  See also History of Wicca. Jeremy (talk) 07:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, I've sorted this issue out. This article now is based far more upon folklorist Eric Maple's more accurate claims.(Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:35, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Too based on Liddell's claims

message: The continual references in the first part to Pickingill using different spellings of his name and inflating his age are I think misleading or possibly so. These variations are very common in records of the lower orders, they don't necessarily imply an attempt to mislead, especially variations of the name. So I think the wording should be more neutral. Pickingill signed with a mark, this does not mean he couldn't read (before universal education it was common enough to be able to read without being able to write)but it does mean that variations of the spelling of his name were not likely to be his idea. Ditto his wife. (And I would guess that he didn't give the name "Frederick" to the reporter, who remarked how youthful he seemed. I think it is more likely that the reporter spoke to Pickingill's eldest son! Reporters.)
A couple of issues which I'm not sure how to address but which I think should be kept in mind by anyone interested in this article. The material on Pickingill clearly situates him in two contexts quite separate from Cunning Murrell. He is associated in Maple's article with white mouse magic which clearly puts him on the "witch or wizard" side of the fence dividing witches from "quack doctor" cunning men like Murrell. Maple's articles mention the importance of the white mouse but Hutton doesn't really pick it up. Sometimes it is hard to tell from accounts whether we are talking about flesh and blood mice (or rats) or supernatural creatures but we have the case of the Romany wizard Jabez Few from Cambridgeshire (died in the 1920s) whose white rats were definitely flesh and blood. They seem to have been important, a witch or wizard passed on their power when they died by passing them on, they get mentioned in the records when the nominated successor doesn't want them! Another context which Pickingill seems to have belonged to is the Society of Horsemen, some of the powers atrributed to him are Horseman's Word powers. Again a very separate thing from cunning men such as Murrell. While the Horsemen are known to have existed in an organised form in Scotland their possible organized existence further south is  shadowy. But that horseman's word type magic was practiced in East Anglia is very well known, I think the records show it more clearly in Norfolk than in Essex....and the tradition that Pickingill had Norfolk kin may (or admittedly may not) have something to do with that.
Another matter is Pickingill's residence and marriage in Gravesend. Gravesend was a cosmopolitan port and recreational area, with a high Romany population. A London playground. Horse fairs, fortune tellers etc. His residence there makes it much more likely that there is some kernel of truth in Liddell's claims, or in the claims Liddell transmitted. In Gravesend he may well have come in contact with middle or upper class occultists. I think these factors should be kept in mind even if they can't be directly applied at this stage. The last word has not been said. Jeremy (talk) 21:34, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: General remarks