Talk:Koko (gorilla)

message: Two points;
:1. I note that the sources for this claim in the article "Other researchers argue that she does not understand the meaning behind what she is doing and learns to complete the signs simply because the researchers reward her for doing so (indicating that her actions are the product of operant conditioning)."
:Do not support it, the first talks about what Patterson herself has said about her research, and in fact directly contradicts the claim it's being used to support, with reference to a double blind test to counter that specific criticism. Which is not mentioned in this article for balance.
:The second is from a book by Susan Blackmore who is not a researcher, but a freelance writer, on such subjects 'psychology and the paranormal'. And her reference contradicts itself, (broken link in the article, but just tracked down a working link) saying that claims Koko knew signs and could put them together in sequences three long 'gave way under criticism' (without references or citations to support that assertion), but then then concluding that the consensus is that chimpanzees and gorillas can learn signs and use short sequences of them appropriately.
:Making a vague reference to 'other researchers' without defining that seems a bit like  weasel words. 
:2. And regarding this part, :"Criticism from some parts of the scientific community centers on the fact that while publications often appear in the popular press about Koko, scientific publications are fewer in number." I am concerned that the cites to support this assertion about alleged criticism are both from Patterson herself and also extremely dated, being from 1978 and 1981 respectively. Number36 (talk) 21:53, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable References 

message: I've written to The Gorilla Foundation requesting an image. Hopefully one will be donated. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:48, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I just realized that we don't even have an image of Koko. I'll ask for one of those too. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image of All Ball 

message: Tonight, the following was deleted.  The purpose of this section is to discuss whether it should have been:
I seem to recall something like this happening. There was a lawsuit alleging sexual assault involving Penny telling interns to allow Koko to grope their nipples, like it was part of the job.  This was a significant event, as I recall, with widespread press coverage.  This should be carefully researched and properly included in this article.  We should not omit such a significant thing, and include so many trivial things about Koko.  It doesn't seem right. Chrisrus (talk) 04:18, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that WP:BLP applies. I rewrote content on the topic and restored it. Let me know if there are any concerns. Daask (talk) 18:32, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: This appears to have been scrubbed again. Several interns allege sexual abuse both of the interns and of Koko herself by her caretaker, and physical abuse in the form of a grossly inappropriate diet which may have contributed to Koko's death. Some of them claim the caretaker made decisions about what to feed Koko based on the advice of her psychic. These claims appeared credible and were covered by the press prior to Koko's death. I don't understand why this article omits well-sourced controversy, even with WP:BLP. TricksterWolf (talk) 23:58, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent deletion 

message: See Koko (gorilla)#Life. I do not think that word means what you think it means. I don't want to get into this article.  Can a regular please correct this? Tom Haws (talk) 14:54, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Homeopathic dietary supplements"? 

message: As mentioned in the article, there's a lot of stuff in the popular press about Koko, but very little primary data: however, the claim I happened upon in People.com today, that Koko and Michael may have described their dreams seems plausible. The claim isn't sourced: does anyone have an idea where this anecdote comes from? ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 12:08, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dreams? 

message: Don't have time to process right now, but the following could be useful.
# 2016 NY Post article on Koko and Francine Patterson
# UWM blurb about 2015 article in "Animal Cognition"
Martinp (talk) 11:50, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  More sources that could be used 

message: I added a  tag because other animals are (arguably) known to keep pets, such is the case of Baboons and pet dogs, and this needs to be cited. Soparamens (talk) 23:21, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Animals having pets 

message: I've written to them twice over the years. No reply. This seems unfair. Koko should decide, or at least, they should not decide for Koko. Is it appropriate to send a few more emails asking for a photo? I mean, really. Anyone? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:21, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A photo is really needed 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. Community Tech bot (talk) 20:51, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: I bet if anyone had asked Koko, she would have wanted photos of herself to be copyright free so that more people could see them. she could have taken a selfie and given it to us.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 19:44, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: sad thought

message: Since Koko was born in captivity, there must be some interesting information on her parents.LFlagg (talk) 23:35, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Koko's parents?

message: Presumably 1971. Salopian (talk) 01:08, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  1871?! 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:10, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: I'd like to read a complete biography about Koko. Does anybody know wether Francine Patterson is working on one?
--2.204.95.5 (talk) 12:08, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biography 

message: Can we add a criticism section? I’m under the impression that this article is not written from a [NPOV](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view) all we have in this article is poorly sourced tabloid hearsay and a trainer who’s taking advantage of Coco in one paragraph under the Characteristics section. At this point we can write an article about Bigfoot’s legacy. Look at the sources for a similar gorilla named “Michael” and tell me if this all doesn’t seem like it’s intentionally undisprovable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(gorilla) Aglyad (talk) 15:17, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: see Wikipedia:Criticism: "In most cases separate sections devoted to criticism, controversies, or the like should be avoided in an article because these sections call undue attention to negative viewpoints". You may have a valid point about the balance of the article though - I think that recent scholarship tends to be more sceptical about claims of non-human primates acquisition of languages. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:36, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism section 

message: This should probably be worded to be less definitive. You can’t “rhyme” in sign language the same you can in spoken English. ASL (and presumably GSL) rhymes are independent of spoken English rhymes. Paragon Deku (talk) 20:03, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded. While I understand much of Koko's language ability is in dispute, it is harder to dispute that sign language does not share the same features of verbal language, and that Koko's handlers did not understand this; criticism from deaf colleagues that they essentially treated sign language as a relex of English was rebuked. Much of Koko's article is currently phrased almost verbatim like a pop-sci report on her, but to be truly NPOV, it needs to be approaching this from an analytical and linguistic perspective. Ithinkiplaygames (talk) 11:37, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: PS: This video by Soup Emporium, as well as the You're Wrong About podcast episode on Koko, go into extensive detail criticizing common reporting on Koko's language ability. While podcasts and YouTube video essays are not sources in and of themselves, I think they may provide a useful jumping-off point for those looking to rewrite the article. Ithinkiplaygames (talk) 11:44, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  All Ball claim in lead 

message: This sentence is in the lead "She certainly understood nouns, verbs, and adjectives, including abstract concepts like "good" and "fake", and was able to ask simple questions."
I'm preety sure it is not certain at all that she understood those things, many scientists would say she clearly did not. And there is no citation for this either, it needs to be removed. - 37.165.149.30 (talk) 18:30, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "She certainly understood... " 

message: what source is this information from?
Another concern that has been raised about Koko's ability to express coherent thoughts through signs is that interpretation of the gorilla's conversation was left to the handler, who may have seen improbable concatenations of signs as meaningful; for example, when Koko signed "sad" there was no way to tell whether she meant it with the connotation of "How sad". TimurMamleev (talk) 23:34, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  what source is this information from?