Talk:Coptic language

message: What does "Cop" mean?
86.93.208.34 (talk) 03:38, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology?

message: Quoth the article:
: The number of Christians declined due to persecution and forced conversion to Islam. This can probably be attributed to the decline in Coptic which represented a cultural barrier for the Copts from the Arabic-Muslim Culture. But now the increasing use of Arabic bridged that barrier and made it easier for the border-line Christians to cross to seemingly greener grounds!
"Seemingly greener grounds!" If this is not a non-neutral point of view I don't know what is.--Abdousi 18:02, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seemingly greener grounds? 

message: (from WP:RM)
====Coptic Language → Coptic language====
Justification: not only were Wikipedia:Naming conventions violated when Coptic language was moved for some unjustified reason to Coptic Language, the vast majority of links point to the old location at Coptic language ?Nefertum17 21:43, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Coptic Adj should be deleted. --Alif 00:31, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: To merge the edit histories, delete Coptic language, move Coptic Language over it, and undelete - but you'll need to wait for the compression bug to be sorted out first. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:16, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move 

message: Justification: not only were Wikipedia:Naming conventions violated when Coptic language was moved for some unjustified reason to Coptic Language, the vast majority of links point to the old location at Coptic language ?Nefertum17 21:43, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Coptic Adj should be deleted. --Alif 00:31, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: To merge the edit histories, delete Coptic language, move Coptic Language over it, and undelete - but you'll need to wait for the compression bug to be sorted out first. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:16, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Coptic Language]] &rarr; [[Coptic language]]

message: Please move this article back to Coptic and move the current dabpage to Coptic (disambiguation) and link it from the top of the page. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages#Structure for guidelines on naming of language articles. For similar examples, see Latin, Hindi, Urdu and many others. None of these use the "language" disambiguator and neither should this.
There's been consistent consensus for this method of naming for quite some time, so I don't feel there's a need to go through a formal RM process.
Peter Isotalo 13:16, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "Coptic" refers only to the language

message: I have Coptic fonts installed and have no trouble viewing web pages in Coptic, but am still unable to display Coptic writing on Wikipedia. It shows up as the Unicode square typeface, not as Coptic. Does anyone know if I need to install something additional? Thanks in advance! - Zerida 22:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Full support for Coptic in Unicode is still quite new. It maybe that your Coptic fonts simply apply Coptic letters to the usual Latin codepoints, the old way of doing it. If so they are not much good for reading Unicode Coptic. Some 'Unicode' fonts don't yet support the Coptic codeblock. I think Code2001 has support for it. On the other hand, if you're using Internet Explorer, you will have dificulty anyway. — Gareth Hughes 23:09, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I downloaded a new Unicode Coptic set that's working with Netscape. Thanks for the tip! - Zerida 23:41, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: In my own case, they're all boxed out except for the letters which are in the Coptic but not the Greek alphabet. I just don't understand why we can't just use the Greek alphabet, since the Coptic alphabet is in fact the Greek alphabet with a few letters added at the end, just simply written or printed in a distinct style (much like traditional German Fraktur). I mean, we don't use a whole separate set of glyphs to write Icelandic just because it uses a couple of letters the standard Latin alphabet doesn't have (such as thorn). I think we should use Greek letters. BGManofID (talk) 16:39, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Coptic letters

message: Has anyone thought of starting up a Coptic language Wikipedia? I don't speak Coptic, but I wouldn't mind helping with whatever I can. --Agari 10:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coptic Wikipedia 

message: If the main article has information on coptic grammar, I must have missed it.  When I go to an encyclopedia to learn about a language, I most certainly expect some discussion about its grammatical features, like nouns and verbs, or substantives and participles,
adverbs and adjectives, that sort of a thing.  What kind of a
language is the Coptic Language?  I don't have the slightest
clue from the main article.  Does it care about word order?  Are
there prefixes, infixes, and suffixes?  Prepositions or postpositions?  Are there definite articles?  Is the language
rich in pronouns or is it poor in pronouns?
Maybe a knowledgeable individual could address these matters and improve the main article.
:Somebody less knowledgeable posted some references under a paragraph titled "gammar" but that's a royal cop out.
It's clear that languages and alphabets are not the same thing.  So why the emphasis on the Greek and Coptic alphabets in isolation of the grammatical features that make the Coptic language what it was - a vehicle for the transfer of information from individual to individual?
Not v. knowledgeable and have  little time at the moment, least of all for editing wiki, but good places to start would be T.O. Lambdin, and Bentley-Leighton. Hope that helps.138.253.156.228 (talk) 18:16, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coptic Grammar? 

message: Removed this: "There is a group of over 130 members in favour of the revival of the Coptic language; for details, see Remenkimi: ."
130 members of a website doesn't exactly make for a revival, and the link doesn't really support this statement much beyond taking the reader to the group's homepage. However, more information on revival attempts would be interesting
:As an informal observer, I would suggest 300 Coptic speakers to be a massive underestimate - Egyptian expatriates in the UK now say they now feel like foreigners in their own services - since many of their young learn and pray in Coptic. The older generation still don't know it well, with Arabic as the first and English second languages, whereas the young speak only English first and Coptic. The true number of Coptic speakers worldwide now must be in many thousands.Cpsoper (talk) 07:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revival 

message: Could someone who reads Coptic tell me if the jinkim is properly displayed in the article? For example, in the word  it should be positioned directly above the letter  like an accent grave. For some reason it doesn't appear properly on my screen, but rather on the next letter or barely noticeable, even though it looks fine when I type it in the edit box. — Zerida 02:24, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, never answered.  No, on my browser (FF) it's closer to the , though at the left edge. — kwami (talk) 02:23, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''jinkim'' 

message: I have changed a few transcriptions in the "Name" section. If the final -e in Sahidic is to be interpreted as a schwa, that would also be true of the final -i in the Bohairic (following Hintze's well-known Enchoria v.10 article and/or Loprieno 1995). To avoid this issue, I have simply returned the Sahidic final epsilon to be transcribed as "e". If someone wants to carry through an entire pan-Coptic phonemization, then both final vowels in Bohairic and Sahidic should be a schwa, and of course other changes would need to be made too.Jakob37 (talk) 15:20, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: I've tweaked the first line of this article upon coming across it, since it's a shame that an otherwise thoroughly written article starts with a strange assertion like: "[Coptic] is the final form of the Egyptian language," especially given its continued existence as a liturgical language and (as seen in the conversations above) possibly as a living language along the lines of Hebrew. I've tentatively changed it to "a modern form of the Egyptian language," since this eliminates the need to consider the history of the language as a dead-end (and the language itself as definitely extinct) upon reading that line. I will leave a more precise statement to the people who actually know more about this language; I just felt I'd try to get the ball rolling. Vaaarr (talk) 08:18, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Opening line

message: There should be more about the wide variety of phonological and grammatical changes from Middle Egyptian. For example, Rmṯ-n-Kmt was originally pronounced something like Remetch-en-Kemet, but came to be pronounced Remenkimi or Remekimi. Coptic has changed as much from Middle Egyptian as French did from Latin, maybe more. Compare how Latin digitus came to be pronounced dwa in French (doigt). The verb suffixes were also lost, as in English and French, which is why the "suffix conjugation" of Ancient Egyptian had to be fortified with an additional prefixed pronoun, like I have instead of hæbbe, where the pronoun is determined from conjugation. The article uses the example of "I I'have'it the ball" which is pretty accurate because the English word "have" exhibited the same loss of inflection. Even the "suffix conjugation" itself is believed to be from the formation of a verb with a pronoun, like parlez-vous in French. It might be like a hypothetical je j'ai-je-elle la balle, where the pronoun is used three times in additional to the inflected verb. The Coptic pronouns themselves resemble French in how they have lost consonants or vowels from the older Egyptian, and attach directly to the verb as one word. 69.54.60.34 (talk) 05:51, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Development from Middle Egyptian 

message: We need to either verify this supposed fact about Coptic having 300 speakers, or simply get rid of it. All three of the sources sited as saying Coptic has only 300 speakers worldwide are unverified and have been so for years. Moreover, all three of these sources are the exact same article--the only difference is that the first one is translated into English, and the second one has a different title on the page, but all three site the exact same interview and give us no new information. I suggest at the very least we delete two of these repeated sources so that at least this fact looks as unreliable on the page as it truly is: having only one completely unverified source. Another thing that concerns me is that I have read these (this) article, and know personally that at least part of the information it cites is completely false: the article's pull is that they got an interview with the "only Egyptian family that still speaks the Coptic language inside Egypt", but I personally know at least one other family in Egypt that speaks Coptic as their primary language. Now I know that one cannot site personal knowledge or experience on Wikipedia, and I am not suggesting that we do so. The point I would like to make is that I know for a fact that this article cited is false in its premise--it exaggerates the truth for the purposes of making a catchy article, and so I fear that it may also be exaggerating or perhaps completely making up this '300 Coptic speakers' fact that it claims. Furthermore, I believe that, if this fact is false, that the true statistics are out there somewhere and need to be found. One way or another, we absolutely need  to do some housecleaning and get this fact verified as soon as possible. 
-3loodlust (talk) 05:58, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Deleted. I'm surprised it's been accepted this long. If true, it would have gotten a lot of press in linguistic and egyptological circles. — kwami (talk) 06:19, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: is there any credibility to the report that 2 families in Egypt still spoke Coptic in 2005 https://dailynewsegypt.com/2005/12/10/coptic-languages-last-survivors/ 82.11.163.59 (talk) 14:45, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  '300 speakers' 

message: I can't read the Coptic in iOS Safari (that is, Safari for iPad) on an iPad 3. Is this http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2C80.pdf what we're talking about? Could someone recruit some help to fix the problem?CecilWard (talk) 01:36, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fonts again 

message: The term 'extinct' is weird and really does not apply to languages in the same that it does to animal species. None of the works cited to support the use of this word could possibly be understood to mean that the language no longer exists, merely that it is not used by people in ordinary social intercourse.
The comparison with Icelandic: if the runic 'thorn' reflects a sound that the 'Latin' alphabet is unable to indicate, then the comparison is legitimate; if, however, the letter is there for purely decorative reasons, the the comparison is not legitimate (Pamour (talk) 16:46, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong! Leave this to the linguists. HammerFilmFan (talk) 15:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extinct and Runic 

message: German Wikipedia:
Liste koptischer Ortsnamen (list of coptic Placenames)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_koptischer_Ortsnamen
--93.216.75.110 (talk) 17:42, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Can somebody translate the following article into English

message: An IP user 178.83.128.189 (Contributions) is adding below Bibliography to the versions of article "coptic language" in other languages (but not to the article in english wikipedia). Is this vandalism? Apparently this IP is blocked in Swedish wikipedia
== Bibliography ==
*Wolfgang Kosack Lehrbuch des Koptischen.Teil I:Koptische Grammatik.Teil II:Koptische Lesestücke, Graz 1974.
--Jacob.jose (talk) 01:45, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bibliography by Wolfgang Kosack 

message: In the spirit of the Unicode proposals, when the following should be used:
* combining overstroke: U+0305 (=supralinear stroke)
* combining character-joining overstroke (from middle of one character to middle of the next): U+035E
Sahidic supralinear stroke
And which should be used for abbreviations. Most important, what is the intended codepoint fot the dear old jinkim.
--Connection (talk) 13:48, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Coptic language#Writing System|Writing System]]...Typesetting Guidelines 

message: http://archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Coptic%20language%22
Grammaire copte : avec bibliographie, chrestomathie et vocabulaire (1904)
https://archive.org/details/grammairecoptea00mall
Rajmaan (talk) 08:13, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old books of historical interest 

message: The part about the verbal grade system is too confusing. I can't even figure out the difference between absolute state and nominal state nor can I understand the reason why the distinction between the two is needed because the translation given for both samples is exactly the same. The article also almost never mentions anything about grammatical cases. Is the so-called "state grades" some kind of grammatical case system? Does Coptic verbs inflict for case, or does this language use grammatical case some other way? And if so, how? I notice it mentions something about specific preposition(s), but it doesn't go into further detail, and it doesn't seem to be indicated by word order either because it explains that the language has at least two optional word orders, which implies that the word order is rather free. Can someone please clarify what this article is saying?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.11.104 (talk) 03:37, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Verbal State Grade and Grammatical Case 

message: Almost all of the Coptic "examples" in this article are more or less nonexistent. There's an awful lot of blank spaces where this is happening:  (yes, with nothing after the | ). Since the actual Coptic text has not been supplied, the article is a mess, reads poorly, and looks stupid. Someone needs to either put the Coptic text in or remove all of this junk that's making the article virtually unreadable. LacrimosaDiesIlla (talk) 19:31, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major Problem 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Coptic language. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello everyone,
The author "the user" who created this article has mentioned (without any references) that Coptic language is no longer in use or disappeared because of "Islamic" persecuation, saying:
"Persecutions under the Mamluk Sultanate (1250–1517) led to the further decline of Coptic[citation needed] until it completely gave way to Egyptian Arabic around the 17th century[citation needed], though it may have survived in   isolated pockets for a little longer."
There're three ways that countries dealt with Islamic conquests, after their defeat and became under Islamic rule:
1- The total rejection of Muslims rule, their religion, and their language (Arabic/Turkish or culture) like Spain, Sicily, Greek, and some countries of Balcans which were part of Ottoman emipre, these countries kept their religions, languages and kept fighting Muslims until they got their independence.
2- To accept Muslims religion but not their culture (language) like; Iran, Turkey, Central Asia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, western Africa, Horn of Africa and others.
3- To accept Muslims religion and their language (culture) like most of countries in North of Africa and Middle East.
So, when Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan decreed that Arabic replace other languages in the whole Islamic caliphate as the sole administrative language, not only replacing Coptic or Greek and not only in Egypt, but look at the difference between Egypt and Iran (Persia) and Khorasan and other countries which accepted Islam as a religion but didn't accept Arab rule or Arab cultures and kept their own languages till today, but many of Copts in Egypt converted to Islam, replaced their language and accepted the Arab rule, there were no rebellions against Arab rule during Umayyad Caliphate, the only rebellion I know about it was  during the Abbasid Caliphate led by both Muslims and Christians.
Greeks, Armenians, Serbs..etc are speaking about Islamic persecuation against them, but they fought back and kept their cultures, why Copts didn't fight back if they felt persecuted, why didn't defend themselves against those who spread their religion by sword, huh, why?
Jewes in Israel kept their languages till today after long centuries of persecuation, massacres, holocaust and disapora through their history, so why Copts didn't do the same or don't do the same?
Hebrew now is spoken by 5-7 million people and Israel was created in 1948 after 56 year now Hebrew is an official language of a state, back to Copts, was Egypt under Islamic persecuation in 1800s during Mohamed Ali dynasty? or under the British occupation in 1882? why they didn't try to restore their language during British occupation that lasted 72 year?
The funny thing there are other languages still used in Egypt like Nubian languages and Siwi beside Arabic, why Arabs or Mamlukes (who were not Arabs and many of them were not speaking Arabic), why they didn't oppress Nubians or Siwa people because they speak their own languages which they kept in use till now unlike Copts, and another thing the french campaign of Egypt and Syria noted about Coptic families that still speak Coptic language, where was the Mamlukes persecuation? 
I believe that Copts gave away their languages by their own well, you can speak about their religious oppression because of their doctrine, but I guess Mumlukes who didn't speak Arabic well (they were slaves from not speaking Arabic nations) could be more interested to change Copts religion not their language.
so please, I speak about facts, do you have facts that Copts were forced to speak Arabic or it just your opinion or something you heard from Copts because I heard a lot of things with no evidence too about this matter, thank you.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amr F.Nagy (talk • contribs) 13:54, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It's more likely (IMHO) that the Black Death and the famines and other disasters during the period of Ottoman rule killed so many Coptic speakers that the basis of the language was fatally weakened. It had already been in decline for centuries, and increasingly made obsolete by Arabic, the international language of the region. The comparison with Hebrew is not apt: the language was consciously revived after having exclusively been in use as a liturgical language for many centuries. Similarly, Coptic survives only as a liturgical language, which means the language is still present in the consciousness of Coptic Christians at least, but not actively used, only in a highly formulaic way like Latin was in the mid-20th century in Catholic regions, where common people could at best recite formulas but not actually speak Latin. Coptic is in a similar situation to Latin (with Contemporary Latin or "Living Latin" being an extremely marginal phenomenon, and even Ecclesiastical Latin being more of a nostalgic relic) or Hebrew in the 19th century. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 02:13, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

text: As for the reason why in some regions the locals, especially Muslim converts or their descendants, gave up their own languages in favour of Arabic, it's noteworthy that there is a very strong correlation with the regions that were speaking Semitic, Egyptian-Coptic or Berber languages. And that's probably no accident, but due to the fact that to speakers of Semitic languages, but also to a considerable extent speakers of Egyptian-Coptic and Berber languages, Arabic was much more familiar and easier to learn than to speakers of completely unrelated languages, or more distantly related languages like Somali. That said, Berber was obviously retained by a significant number of speakers into the present, maybe because it is typologically more distant to Arabic. Geography probably reinforced the development. It is known from dialectology that linguistic and geographical distance (or accessibility) are both key factors in dialect spread, in addition to settlement size. The distance of Egypt to Arabia is relatively small both in terms of geographical distance as well as the linguistic distance between Coptic and Arabic. And from relatively large cities like Mecca and Medina, Arabic could spread quickly to the cities of Egypt. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 02:46, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Did Coptic language vanish due to Islamic persecution?

message: In Wikimedia Incubator, the Coptic version of Wikipedia contains articles about the dialects. Moreover, since the pages are written in Coptic, so the native names are ready to be included.
89.210.123.16 (talk) 17:30, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Creation of articles about each Coptic dialect

message: Unfortunately you misunderstand your own source. Ishak's thesis aims to describe the pre-1850 pronunciation of liturgical Bohairic Coptic as used by the Egyptian Orthodox Church. It is not meant to represent Bohairic as it was spoken during its natural lifetime, nor is it meant to be representative of any Coptic dialect other than Bohairic. During the period Maher describes, all Bohairic phonemes which were not present in Egyptian Arabic were substituted by their nearest equivalents. This included ϭ /t͡ʃʰ/, which was substituted by /ʃ/ (the value of EgAr. ش), and ϫ /t͡ʃ/, which was substituted by /ɟ/ (the contemporary value of EgAr. ج). This /ɟ/ is the "palatal plosive" you refer to. The native value of ϫ, on the other hand, is uncontroversially recognized as the affricate [t͡ʃ] across all Coptic dialects, while Bohairic ϭ is similarly recognized as possessing the original value [t͡ʃʰ], being the aspirated equivalent of ϫ. In fact, our ability to confidently identify these phonemes as affricates is not limited to Coptic period, but rather extends approximately 2000 years back when transcriptions of Semitic names first begin to appear in Middle Egyptian texts. Middle and Late Egyptian ṯ and ḏ are always used to transcibe Semitic affricates and never Semitic stops or fricatives. If this were not enough, ϫ can be used to denote not only the single phoneme /t͡ʃ/, but also clusters of t+ʃ. What you are saying is equivalent to arguing that /ts/ should be indicated as the value of Proto-Italic k because that was how native German speakers pronounced Latin c when praying before the year 1917, when Pope Pius X standardized Ecclastical Latin according to how Italians pronounced their mass. It makes no sense at all. It is clear from your talk page that you have a history of disruptive editing and edit warring in which you habitually alter well-sourced phonology sections based on misrepresentations of sources that were inppropriate in the first place. Please refrain from making these kinds of changes to phonology sections without a thorough understanding of the material you're dealing with, especially when the content you're changing is well sourced and represents the consensus. If this kind of behavior continues I will have no choice but to report it. Rhemmiel (talk) 05:48, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: @Rhemmiel thanks for letting me know. Although it is quite interesting because I’ve read that in Old Egyptian, it had the palatal stops [c cʰ]. Could they have possibly evolved into palato-alveolar consonants like [tʃ tʃʰ], by the time that Middle Egyptian came along? Fdom5997 (talk) 01:31, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: We really don’t know the precise values of Old Egyptian ṯ and ḏ, only that they are the result of a widespread palatalization process affecting k and q that was completed by the Second Dynasty. The absolute earliest indication of their pronunciation is their use in transcribing the Semitic alveolar affricate series during the Middle Kingdom. Rhemmiel (talk) 14:16, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

text: @Rhemmiel thank you for correcting me. I did not know whether that contribution was accurate or not. Fdom5997 (talk) 18:13, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consonant Phonology 

message: Seemingly, the coptic language is used at least as liturgical language in churches. How can it be extinct at the same time? KristallograefIn (talk) 05:46, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Extinct as an L1 language (spoken from birth, mother tongue). Same with Latin and Sanskrit. The distinction is sometimes blurred though because some of these languages are used fluently outside liturgical settings. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 06:49, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Still used, but extinct?

message: The text says:
Differences centre on how to interpret the pairs of letters ⲉ/ⲏ and ⲟ/ⲱ. In the Attic dialect of Ancient Greek in the 5th century BC, the first member of each pair is a short closed vowel /e, o/, and the second member is a long open vowel /ɛː, ɔː/. In some interpretations of Coptic phonology, it is assumed that the length difference is primary, with ⲉ/ⲏ  and ⲟ/ⲱ is . Other scholarsGreenberg 1962/1990 argue for a different analysis in which ⲉ/ⲏ and ⲟ/ⲱ are interpreted as  and .
The second citation for the second interpretation is Lambdin 1983, p. xii–ix. However, what Lambdin actually gives there is simply a popularising pedagogical instruction: he says that ⲉ should be pronounced as the vowel in let, ⲏ as in hate, ⲟ as in log, and ⲱ as in hope. It is difficult to say what he means with this in reality. First of all, interpreting this statement as describing of a contrast in quality rather than quantity presupposes an old-style American analysis of American English vowels that ignores the diphthongised nature of the vowels of American English hate and hope. From a British perspective, for instance, the second pair of vowels is bimoraic while the first is monomoraic, so it is partly a contrast of quantity. More importantly, even if Lambdin does mean a contrast between a more open and a more close vowel, the relationship between ⲉ/ⲏ and ⲟ/ⲱ would be the exact opposite to the one that the wiki article suggests both with the order of the letters and with the Attic Greek parallel: in Attic Greek e and o are closer than ɛ and ɔ, and the wiki article mentions ⲉ, ⲟ and /e/ and /o/ first in the pairs. In contrast, Lambdin's version would be that ⲏ and ⲱ in Coptic express closer vowels, not more open ones. 62.73.69.121 (talk) 20:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vowels