Talk:Toše Proeski

message: This article needs to be protected. It is being edited and reverted by the same people at a very high rate. Most of the edits aren't even related to his death, rather they are fan reviews, tributes, and political statements. SWik78 19:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My impression right now is that the number of constructive contributions, including those from IPs, is still high enough as to make (semi)protection counterproductive. But I'd suggest you guys first concentrate on getting the biographical details right, and leave the WP:LAME political issues about how to name the country for a bit later. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Svik, can't you be a little informal just these two days? Can't you find little humanity in yourself for one hard moment? A great young man died today, Macedonia has lost one of her greatest men.--strich3D 21:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing war 

message: Toše began his career in 1996 on teenage festival MELFEST, not MAKFEST.
:79.125.148.42 21:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Begining of his career

message: Clearly there is a lot of debate on which country he was born in. Geographically, everyone agrees that he was born in what is today known as Republic of Macedonia. On the date of his birth, his birth place was located in a country called SFR Yugoslavia. Whether it's SR Macedonia, SFR Yugoslavia or Republic of Macedonia, it should be discussed here and agreed upon before people start changing it back and forth in the article simply based on what they like more politically. SWik78 15:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Republic of Macedonia 

message: Book of Mourning: I know it cause I've seen one displayed here in my home town- Belgrade (today and tomoroww till 19:00 I believe), and I have heard on the news same has been done in many other countries.Icemaja 17:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As per Wiki:Verifiability: "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed" as well as "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material". You may have seen the book in Belgrade, but most people haven't seen it. There needs to be a reference for everyone reading this article to be able to confirm this information from a reliable source. SWik78 17:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Facts check

message: Guys, pleaaaaase. Stop changing round the birthplace.
A reference was provided, it's the link to Proeski's own official homepage. The bio (in English) at  calls him a "boy from Krusevo" but in the same sentence says he was "born on 25 January 1981 in Prilep". 
I don't know what the "from" in "from Krusevo" is supposed to mean if it's not where he was born; maybe he just grew up there, who knows. In any case, the birthplace seems clear.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again I suggest (semi)protecting the page until the disputes are resolved. There have been over 200 edits of this page since yesterday and the majority did NOT contribute any new information. SWik78 21:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I see your point, but I'm still not so sure. Most of the contributions (some obvious silliness aside) still seems to be with good intentions, and quite a few of the contributions from anons are constructive. Don't worry, this will settle down in one or two days, and then it can all be cleaned up. This is what always happens when somebody prominent dies. The policy is to try and keep the articles open for editing as long as possible. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand the confusion. The information about his birthplace is clear and it's widely available. He was born in a state hospital in Prilep, because Krusevo is a small town. But his family is from Krusevo, and he also grew up in Krusevo (that's why 'a boy from Krusevo'). BTW, God have mercy upon his soul, he was the greatest, not only as a singer :( :( :( ! - iNkubusse? 23:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth place 

message: Let me help. Regarding his origin: his family lives in Kruševo where he spent most of his childhood. So he is definetly a "Kruševo boy". It may be true that he was born in the nearby bigger city of Prilep, but Kruševo is definetly his 100% hometown, where after all he was buried yesterday! Regarding his country of birth, check this out: Robbie Williams, John Lennon, Mick Jagger and many other notable musicians are listed in their corresponding wikipedia articles as "born in / origin": England. The United Kingdom (which incl. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) is not mentioned at all, although these notable persons were/are its citizens and passport holders. Check it yourself plz. Therefore, I think we dont have to necesarily include SFR Yugoslavia as a place of birth in Tose's article. Yes, we can, but we dont have to. If you decide to do so, then please first add United Kingdom in the aricles of Lennon, MCartney, Jagger and so on and so on, cause otherwise it would be a double standard.--Zorla 00:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lets get it straight

message: Why should that be removed? I am puzzled ForeignerFromTheEast 20:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a difference between where someone is born and where they originate from. Yugoslavia might be acceptable to put by the Born tag but I don't think it should be placed by the Origin tag. Either way, there is clearly disagreement on whether Yugoslavia should be listed on there at all. Make sure that some kind of concensus is reached before editing that again. Otherwise it's going to be changed back and forth every 5 minutes. SWik78 20:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Putting in the Born tag is fine with me. I'd like not to revert, so can you please put it there. Also please do not threaten with continued edit waring. This is something that should be avoided. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Calm down. I'm not threatening anything. I'm stating what has been a trend so far. As soon as someone adds Yugoslavia, someone else removes it and they go back and forth. I, personally, don't even care if it says Macedonia, Yugoslavia or Former Ottoman Empire, I just want it to stop being changed every 5 minutes. SWik78 01:02, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of "Yugoslavia"

message: Undoubtely SRM was part of SFRY, no one has problem with that fact, however I already gave an explanation: an endless list of internationaly acclaimed UK artists such as Mick Jagger, John Lennon, Jeff Beck, The Beatles, Robbie Williams and you name it are listed in Wikipedia as "born in England" without mentioning the United Kingdom, although all of these artists are/were UK citizens and passport holders (England is not an independent country, theres no such thing as English passport or English army). They have UK passports. Their football team is an exception. Moreover Charles, Prince of Wales is also listed as being born in England (again UK is not mentioned), while Alexander Lukashenko is listed as born in Byelorussian SSR (not mentioning the Soviet Union). The example of Sean Connery that you provided is allright, but thats one of the rare exclusions in wikipedia (at least it seems to me so, normally I cant make a deep research on that I just gave you NOTABLE examples, if Beatles are not notable enough then I dont know). Before you put 'Yugoslavia' in every Macedonia-related article please add United Kingdom to every English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland music related articles and also put Soviet Union to every Russian, Ukrainian, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Kyrghystan, Latvian, Estonian, Armenian, Azeri music related article. Fair play. Otherwise, its double standard. Thank you very much.  --Zorla 20:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So I fail to see any specific reason to remove Yugoslavia besides the fact that there exist some cases where the country is removed in favor of subnational entity. Why are you removing? For every biography of a person without "UK" there are equal number of persons with "UK" as birthplace, and since I am not aware of a specific policy to prefer one over the other, I fail to see a reason to systematically remove information like you are trying to do. You could try instead to imporve articles by providing missing data, instead of deleting even more. ForeignerFromTheEast 20:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Because its a double standard and I explained it well. In a certain way, you grant the Englishmen the right to "mark" their celebrities on wikipedia as being from England without mentioning the UK, they can even freely put the white Flag of England instead of the blue Union Jack in those articles (see Mick Jagger article for instance). At the same time you insist that the Macedonian editors must put 'Yugoslavia' in all their articles. Not fair. If you really insist on objectivity, first you should correct those other articles, which are far more relevant for the international community and add UK, Soviet Union respectively as I explained before. Your claim that: For every biography of a person without "UK" there are equal number of persons with "UK". First of all i dont know how you got that conclusion, and even if its true the most relevant artists are clearly listed as being from England (The Beatles, Iron Maiden, Sex Pistols, its an endless list)  Zorla 21:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont grant any Englishmen any right to do anything, I fail to see how England is in any way relevant to SR Macedonia. You still have not listed a Wikipedia policy to mandate one choice over the other and you have no real arguments except listing some questionable "precedents". I do not agree with systematically deleting useful information from articles for no good reason. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

text: how England is relevant to this discussion? England is a constitutient country (unit) of the UK, as Belarus SSR was a federal unit of the USSR, as SRM was a federal unit in SFRY. Thats the analogy Im trying to make. BTW you havent listed a Wikipedia policy either. I wish there was one so we can solve this for once. Until then Im afraid i will be persistent in following the "English" example (again: The Beatles, Robbie Williams, Peter Gabriel, Sex Pistols, Brian Ferry, David Bowie and so on and so on, there are milions of examples. And moreover, as I already mentioned, many of them bear the Flag of England.Zorla 21:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I presume this is addressed to me. I have not so much added Yugoslavia, as to prevent it from being deleted for no good reason. Also why should adding Yugoslavia be offending? ForeignerFromTheEast 21:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Why should SR Macedonia-only be offending? Alexander Lukashenko's article lists Byelorussian SSR only, why no one complains bout that? Who knows how many other articles like this exist, but im too tired to hunt them down for this debateZorla 21:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually it says Soviet Union (no I did not change it just now). Again, nothing but vague precedent talk. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I said. my mistake, it lists the Belarus SSR flag only. Still it contributes to my point.Zorla 21:40, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But it has a link to Soviet Union which is against your point. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea what you are insinuating. If you think there is a problem with the English articles I suggest you improve them, not necessarily conform Macedonian to them. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, Wikipedia is a voluntary project. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

text: First, it may be informal and kinda "unencyclopedic" from me, but ForeignerFromTheEast can you leave Tose's soul alone and stop your obvious campaign pointed against his article and the other Macedonian music-related articles? Second, regarding the SRM/Yugoslavia issue everything was well explained to you 3 times minimum. Re-read above.Zorla 22:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[SR Macedonia]] with or without Yugoslavia? 

message: I see the photo on this article is marked for deletion. There are some CC photos available on flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stojance/tags/toseproeski/ and
http://www.flickr.com/photos/86533211@N00/1623033266/
Maybe these can be used for the article. Novica 11:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos 

message: The statement that he had an Aromanian family background needs sourcing, or it goes out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:33, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: http://star.vecer.com.mk/tekst.asp?tid=20645 - there is some reference here about that. This is a part of an interview Toshe gave to a serbian newspaper. He says that his grandfather's surname was Proja. This is regarded as Vlach surname.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Novica (talk • contribs) 17:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, he was an Aromanian, but why should that be mentioned in the opening text, especially knowing the fact that he never spoke of his ethnicity and he regarded himself simply as a Macedonian singer? Nevertheless, it's a fact and it deserves its place in such an encyclopedia article, but that goes in some subsection of the section 'Biography', not in the opening text. I have to add something more: my God, do you have to make everything a controversy, especially including nationalism (anti-Macedonian in most cases)?!? iNkubusse? 18:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed it from the lead; you're right about that; there's even a policy somewhere saying that lead sections shouldn't give undue weight to a person's ethnic background unless that background is of crucial importance for their notability - which is clearly not the case here. I can't read the interview linked to above, but does it really provide enough info? Having one of your four grandparents with an X-sounding name is not the same thing as being X yourself. Can we get something better? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic background 

message: Why aren't Macedonian folk music and Classical music included in Genres? Please don't tell me that someone here doubts that (Toshe had a whole album with folk songs BTW). Anyone, respond! iNkubusse? 15:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAIK, before 1920ies the dominant ethnic self-identification of Macedonian Slavs was Bulgarian. The Slav folk songs from Macedonia originated from a period in which mass ethnic Macedonian identity didn't exist. Don't forget the collection "Bulgarian Folk Songs" of Miladinov Brothers from 1861, other Bulgarian folklore collections of Kuzman Shapkarev, Marko Cepenkov, etc. The term "Macedonian folk music" is problematic. Most of the popular folk songs from Macedonia are sung in Bulgaria as well. - Wickedpedian 16:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, AFAYK is just not enough. The term Bulgarian meant a completely different thing in those times and shouldn't be confused with the modern Bulgarian state. The self-identification of the Macedonians has nothing to do with that term (Although it's not true that the dominant self-identification before the 1920ies was Bulgarian! Only according to Bulgaria and similar sources!). But why on earth should that be a problem? That's not something that we should discuss on this talk page. It's true that most of the popular Macedonian folk songs are also sung in Bulgaria, but they are Macedonian (since they originate from the people in Macedonia, and today, that nation is recognised by everyone, except you know who). Today, there is a modern Macedonian state, and Macedonian folk songs refers to the folk songs of the people originating from that country. After all, your answer was quite unsatisfactory, here's why: we all agree that the term "Macedonian folk music" absolutely applies for (e.g.) the song "Jovano, Jovanke"; Toshe recorded another version of that song -> Toshe recorded an album with such songs - > Toshe recorded an album with Macedonian folk music. Eh? iNkubusse? 16:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Dear INkubusse, don't you think it is not too seroius to assert that "The term Bulgarian meant a completely different thing in those times and shouldn't be confused with the modern Bulgarian state." when Miladinov Brothers, Kuzman Shapkarev, Marko Cepenkov, etc. undoubtedly declared themselves namely as ethnic Bulgarians? Moreover, according to these Bulgarian folklorists from Macedonia the whole Slav Macedonian population was Bulgarian in ethnic meaning, check the preface to Miladinov's collection "Bulgarian Folk Songs" for example. This  collection was published in 1861 before the creation of Bulgarian state in 1878 and therefore this state had nothing to do with its publication. Don't be ridiculous and speculative. - Wickedpedian 17:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not speculative you chauvinistic troll! Stop the sarcasm and don't call me dear, please. The only reason why I will stop this is the respect I have for Toshe. This is not the place for telling the world that we are all Bulgarians! And I'll take that ridiculous as an offence. I have to say, though, that the Miladinov brothers "declared" themselves as Bulgarians, but not as modern Bulgarians. Just like Alexander the Great was Macedonian, not modern Macedonian. Miladinovs were poets and they're not expected to have thought about national identity. Now, I'm glad " Traditional Macedonian music" was included in the article... iNkubusse? 18:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm afraid you don't get the point, Poniranje. Wikipedia is not about warring (well, at least it shouldn't be). And I just won't do what they do. And they means the people who are openly destructive specificaly towards Macedonian articles. iNkubusse? 18:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Because they'll block you... Maybe... :D No, really, I'm familiar with the situation, and I don't quite agree. It's true that they are warring, that's their sole purpose here, but I refuse to do what they do. It's that simple. And PLEASE, stop this kind of talks on this talk page. I feel sick when I think about Toshe's death, how miserable :( iNkubusse? 19:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Genres

message: Check the articles about:
*Constantine Karamanlis (famous Greek politician). The infobox says born in Greece (feat. the modern day Greek flag), although he was actually born in the region of Macedonia under Otttoman rule in 1907 when Greece didnt have souveregnity over Greek Macedonia (they got it in 1912 in the Balkan Wars). When some people tried to correct that infobox they were immediatly reverted by the greek editors. 
*Ivan Vazov (famous Bulgarian) was saying  "born in Bulgaria". Ottoman Empire was not mentioned as a country of birth and there are no flags. Again, someone tried to correct that, and was reverted immediatly. Now it mentions both Bulgaria and Ottoman Empire, however for the Macedonian persons ussualy ONLY OTTOMAN EMPIRE is used without any mentioning of "Macedonia (region)" (see Krste Misirkov), where only Greek Macedonia is mentioned to please the greek editors.
*Vasil Levski (famous Bulgarian), when someone has added that he was born and died in Ottoman Empire (FACT) with the appropriate flags , that was also removed/modified. See history versions. Now it has Ottoman Empire without the flags.
CONCLUSION: its not"who is right", its "who has more meatpuppets" to revert the article over and over without being blocked. 
Wickedpedian, ForeignerFromEast and others, with your impulsive, destructive and nationalistic motivated revertions and most of all, for your senceless and irresponsible editing of a recently diseased person's article, you lost all your credibility. Whatever you do, you will be reverted over and over and over until the end of time. Your arguments are no longer valid and will be ignored. Full stop. The others: Add the flags of Republic of Macedonia over and over to every Macedonian related articles as in the case of the English musicians and greek politicians (example: Constantine Karamanlis). Its time to claim our culture back. Poniranje 18:10, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conclusion 

message: :Guys, for the love of God, stop it, now.
:I have kept this article unprotected so far, because there still seem to be genuine, good-faith newcomers trying to edit it, including constructive anon IP users. Since these people should feel welcome here, and since we respect their desire to pay hommage to the dead singer, this article should remain open for editing. 
:However, starting a nationalist edit-war about symbolisms such as flags in infoboxes, while the intense emotional input from newcomers is still ongoing, and then spreading it to a host of other articles, is an absolutely fricking shame beyond description. While much of the recent disruption has come from socks and meatpuppets on the Macedonian side, I cannot help but lay the blame for the overall escalation of this situation at the feet of the Bulgarian contributors, who are experienced editors and should have known better. Instigating this edit-war at this particular moment was an act either of barbaric insensivity, or of downright  willful trolling. 
:I expect that you all will keep away from making contentious edits about these flag/country issues, on this article as well as all the others, for at least the next few weeks. If I see any continuation of edit-warring, and be it only a single non-cooperative edit, I will be handing out blocks ranging from one month upwards against everybody involved. Obvious sock-/meatpuppet new accounts engaging in such edits will be indef-blocked on sight. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This will certainly favor sockpuppetry with open proxies rather than people committed to a single account. ForeignerFromTheEast 20:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Hmm, after looking at it again, it does appear you may be right. The last constructive edit seems to have been more than 24h ago. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can't beleive. You have bulgarised even article about Tose Proeski, a great man died, can't you keep your propaganda behind the door for a moment? Can't stop for a single moment, can't you? All bulgarians should go to psychologist to cure their national inferiority complex. You really have a problem guys.--strich3D 20:05, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop making personal attacks, Strich3d.SWik78 03:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, I don't think it was a personal attack (except for the psychologist part :D). Maybe they should, in fact, think for a moment what he meant to say. If one looks into their contributions, they should find that most of them include adding something Bulgarian in articles about Macedonia. It's rather... peculiar. But this is not the place for that sort of conversation. Ignore this please :D iNkubusse? 07:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Warning

message: The opening section of this article contains a mention of 11 artists' names that he collaborated with on musical projects. The section on his funeral lists 14 artists' names and 6 politicians' names. Is it really necessary to have a full list of names or would everyone agree to shorten it to something along the lines of "He collaborated with many artists from across the Balkan area" and "Many artists from the Balkan area as well as several high ranking politicians from the region attended the funeral"? As an example of what I mean, Tito's funeral was attended by the heads of state of over 100 countries yet his wikipedia entry simply states "His funeral drew many world statesmen". SWik78 18:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No doubt he was highly acclaimed but Tito's funeral was much larger without names of attendees being listed and John Lennon collaborated with way more artists and none of those are listed in the opening paragraph either. Even though he was famous and well respected, he's getting more notice for his work and funeral than some other people who were much more famous than him. I'm just suggesting that we not use preferrential treatment for Tose just because we used to listen to his music. SWik78 00:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

text: The list of names is bad in the lead (seeWP:LEAD); it barely pertains to his career. It could make sense if he were, say, a professional guitarist ("a hired gun"), but not for a singer-songwriter. I'm moving it below. Duja► 14:23, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shortening the lists of names 

message: 1 link removed - TV footage - No indication from clip information or uploader profile, that uploader has rights to footage concerned or
is connected with the production entities that would be responsible for it.
Sfan00 IMG (talk) 13:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: documentaries and interviews given in the (electronic) media can be used as a source. For example The Beatles article has a reference to a rockumentary (see Hamburg section) --Dzole (talk) 22:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  You tube link removal 

message: That's about 2 too many. SWik78 (talk) 21:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  3 external links to memorial sites??? 

message: Is that album title in Serbian or Macedonian?
"Sin" It has a definite article like Macedonian, but "Bog" has a declension like Serbian.
BalkanFever 01:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It’s not a declension, it’s an adjective meaning "belonging to God". — Svetko (talk) 10:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed it is. Thank you. BalkanFever 11:31, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sinot Božji 

message: I heard that he died after 50 minutes in a hospital. Could anyone look up this? -- Samoborac (talk) 18:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death 

message: Isn't he an aromanian from macedonia? here a link that says the same
http://nt.krusevo.org/content/view/39/48/lang,mk/
Тоше Проески (25 јануари 1981-16 октомври 2007), роден како Тодор Проески во Прилеп, во влашко семејство
Zna (talk) 02:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: He may well have been, but we never found good reliable sourcing for such s statement. The page you link to is just a copy from the Macedonian Wikipedia article, hence not itself a reliable source. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have found reliable source for Toshe's Aromanian background: Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Historical Dictionaries of Europe, Dimitar Bechev, Scarecrow Press, 2009, , p. 234. Jingiby (talk) 06:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Aromanian Macedonian

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thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

message: From where did you get data about chart positions of Tose's songs? 109.93.33.90 (talk) 22:09, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chart data 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 10 external links on Toše Proeski. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:46, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion