Wikipedia talk:Babel/Archive 1

message: Has it been decided:
*What the standard dimensions of these buttons should be? Some tags are taller or wider than others, and it isn't aesthetically pleasing if multiple buttons appear together.
*What the standard font size should be?  I originally had all the Persian templates use a 10pt font, to make the characters easier to read, but this contributed to the excessive overall dimensions (see above).
*Should an English translation of the native-language message appear below, separated by a horizontal line?  Some of the tags do this, others do not.  Again, this contributes to size discrepancies, a major aesthetic issue for people trying to display these tags in a sidebar on their userpages (e.g. mine).
Maybe the Dictators Administrators can come up with some kind of system and vote on it?  (Maybe that will distract them from nominating my pages for deletion, hmmm...) --Jpbrenna 18:41, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This Dictator suggests that any user can nominate pages for deletion and that any user can come up with systems and vote on them. But he has the following comments: I thought that the buttons were all the same size. At least the few I've seen. I don't know about the font size. I am in favor of having an English translation on all the pages. — Knowledge Seeker দ 05:24, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Babel Standards Organization (BSO?) 

message: I added the templates to Wikipedia:Template_messages/User_namespace (not all of them, though). -- grm_wnr Esc 18:20, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Template_messages/User_namespace]] 

message: I was going to add no-2's template but realised that I wasn't sure what the correct format was. There seems to be some colour coding going on, but I'm not sure what the colours mean and if the other templates use them properly. Can somebody write about the colour coding and what should be in the template so we have some instruction to mark their correctness against?  — KayEss | talk 03:03, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: this: Wikipedia:Template_messages/User_namespace#Single languages will probably answer your questions --TarmoK 20:23, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Template formating

message: I've put the recommended bit of typing on my Userpage here, where it shows a coloured box as expected, and on my Userpages at de:, eo:, and mi:, where it doesn't. What do I do to get it displaying properly on those too? (I have read all of the instructions, I think, but something is evidently not evident enough) Robin Patterson 22:11, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Those Wikipedias will have to start a Babel page, then start templates for each of the languages.  It's not as bad as it sounds, just lots of copy & paste and making sure you have the pages titled correctly. Touch base with the admins first so they don't freak out when you start all these pages.  --Jpbrenna 04:37, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you - I think. "Start a Babel page" could mean all sorts of things. Where precisely can I see one to copy? Would I really be moving in a useful direction if I simply made a copy of []? (Even that page doesn't say how one then starts templates.) Robin Patterson 20:23, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this originated on WikiCommons.  So at one point they had to have started this page here, and then started copying some of the stuff.  Starting templates is easy -- I've done it.  The markup will be the same on all Wikis, it's just the text that you'll have to translate.  But that comes after you've started the categories.  Why don't we start a Babel page on the French or German sites (you pick) with just one category: English.  Then we can add German and French, and you can put the tags on your userpage there.  It won't take long before people start filing in to add other languages and improve it.  I'll help with the formatting issues, but you'll have to do the translating since I know very little French or German.--Jpbrenna 20:40, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to get it working on other-language user-pages 

message: Instead of saying "This user is...", shouldn't the templates say "I am a..." (since they will be used primarily on user pages)? <FONT COLOR="#00AA00">тə</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00CC00">zє</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00FF00">ті</FONT> 16:13, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
:I'm saying "This registered member is ..." (or an equivalent in the language concerned) - Robin Patterson 20:20, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Messages 

message: Before I go changing most of the templates: is there any specific reason why many of the templates do not capitalise the initial letter of the languages mentioned? I understand why the two letter codes are in lower-case, but not the actual text itself. Rje 18:02, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
*The templates are in the concerned language; and in many languages (but not in English and in some other Germanic languages) language names are not capitalized. So: "Cette personne parle français" (lowercase) but "This user speaks English" (language name capitalised) and "Dieser Benutzer hat [...] Deutschkenntnisse" (all nouns capitalised). Tonymec 05:27, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Capital letters

message: People have created new language templates with colours reflecting country flags. I think this is a bad idea, because the language and the country don't always match. Several languages are used in many countries, many coutries use several languages etc. By using flag colours you tell Swiss Wikipedians speaking French as their native language that they are French! -Hapsiainen 13:35, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
*Agreed. Even if someone devises a template-category combo for, e.g., American English, it would not be a good idea, as even American English is spoken in more than one country. —msh210 17:18, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, bad idea.  It would just create a huge mess -- especially with languages spoken in former European colonies.  You'd have dozens for Spanish, French and English.  If you want to display national pride, put your nation's flag in a conspicuous spot on your userpage.--Jpbrenna 17:52, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Template colours

message: Hawaiian Pidgin stay plenny difren from da kine normal English.  I tink you goin need fo change da rules skosh.--Endroit 04:17, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: PS: Let me know if you can create a template for Hawaiian Pidgin... mahalo.--Endroit 04:20, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: PPS: The ISO/DIS 639-3 code for Hawaiian Pidgin is:  HWC.--Endroit 04:58, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Hawaiian Pidgin]], anyone? 

message: i. The languages list is currently divided into "natural languages," "language-related," and "other." A number of the languages listed as 'natural' are in fact creoles:
* Singlish, Bislama, Pidgin (officially, Hawaiian Creole English), Tok Pisin, Kreyòl Ayisyen, and Papiamento
--I propose that either the languages list be reorganized: 1. natural languages, 2. creoles, 3. related, 4. other; or that "natural languages" be replaced with "languages."
:In what way are creoles not natural languages? Separating them from "natural languages" is misleading, to say the least. I assume you're confusing creoles with pidgins? I agree, though, that a reorganization is needed, considering that some of the languages under "natural languages" are patently not natural languages--I speak mainly of constructed languages. EldKatt (Talk) 15:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: creoles, natural languages, and dialects

message: In Japanese Babel, some templates are used for showing of many languages in the Babel page(Template:Babels), category pages for each languages(Template:Category user language, 1, 2, 3, N), templates for each languages(Template:User language-1, 2, 3, N), and designed to simplify the editing and to save size of pages.(Examples of use: :ja:Wikipedia:バベル, Category:User en, Template:User en-1.) How about introducing these in English Wikipedia? Enirac Sum 13:31, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: More use of templates

message: The project page instructs me to put "xx if you're a native speaker or have a grasp of the language comparable to a native speaker", so I put xx for the relevant languages.  However, what appears on my page is text saying that I am actually a native speaker in all those languages.  That's not quite right.  If I try putting xx-4, it doesn't work for all languages.  — Chameleon 19:07, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: IIUC, level 4 is a new addition. The templates and categories for it are progressively being made. For instance, when I first built my user page a few days ago, there was no eo-4 template. Now there is (and I didn't even make it). If you put xx-4 in the Babel entry on your user page, and it results in a "missing link" instead of a template, then you can either create the template and category yourself; or if you are not bold enough, you can ask that someone help you do it. -- Tonymec 03:55, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Native or not 

message: I know this sounds extremely odd, but I would like the green colour of the babel (which is on many user pages) modified. There are three/four colours which make me sick (slightly nauseous infact, and I have no clue why...) Would anyone have any objections if the HTML colour code is modified slightly?  =Nichalp (Talk)= 07:47, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
*are you saing that I make you sick? I've green eyes. I think the colour is fine! Blue make me sick cause my father's eyes are blue (also the colour of cold and distance). Keep it green, the colour of hope. Hope to understand has much people as you can. -Pedro 22:37, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  green colour 

message: We are still told that "subst" helps the servers. But when I faithfully followed the instruction, some of my templates didn't work; and my knowledgeable colleagues have made them work by removing the "subst". Would the people concerned for the servers please explain exactly what a good alternative would have been? Then maybe I can follow the server-saving method in the many more templates I may have to create. Robin Patterson 23:16, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: subst??

message: Recently I've seen a few questions on the VP and reference desk regarding translations to or from English.
To deal with this it would be handy to have a noticeboard as a central reference point for e.g. German speakers, rather than picking on a random e.g. German speaker. Indeed the latest one is someone wanting to know the names of different components of an atomic bomb - I'd be very lucky to pick someone who knows this first time. Thryduulf 15:39, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: language noticeboards?

message: I'm a native English speaker with a fair amount of experience in French (2 years receiving credit and 4 years of basics prior plus extra-curricular independent study).  However, there's a big of ambiguity here... at least from my perspective.  I considered using the intermediate level for French; however, the criteria for advanced states that one must be able to correct spelling and grammatical errors.  I can do this too, though I'm hardly fluent.  Should I just stick with the safe bet of intermediate French until further education, or should I be technical about it and put advanced?  --Thorns Among Our Leaves 20:30, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Go for what you feel is the best; WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. --cesarb 20:43, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm putting level 2 for now, since I'm nowhere near perfect.  --Thorns Among Our Leaves 20:44, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: And I'm with the thorns (no old-english pun intended): fr-2. Eight years of doing about an hour's French study every weekday qualifies one for correcting a lot of errors but I was fairly useless at conversation even while still at the University of Otago. Wikipedia editing is about reading and writing at one's own speed, nothing to do with "fluency", and even the word "speaker" is misleading in this context really. Robin Patterson 14:46, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intermediate versus Advanced 

message: Although I believe my grasp of English is native-like, and certainly better than my grasp of my first and family language, it feels very wrong to call it my "native" language, so I have created .  — Pekinensis 7 July 2005 19:01 (UTC)
:I don't think the concept of "no native language" is that useful.... as far as Wikipedia is concerned, it doesn't really matter if your "native" language is really "native" or just "like-native"... if I speak English just like a native language, does it matter that technically, I'm not actually a "native" English speaker? And what would I put English as? en-3? That doesn't reflect my grasp of the English language.
:Besides, no one has "no native" language. Your thoughts, for exmaple, have to involve some use of language. What language do you think in? That's your "native" language.
:A better solution would probably be renaming "native" to something else, e.g. "first language". -- ran (talk) July 7, 2005 19:13 (UTC)
I agree with you, but my point is to protest that the current system conflates linguistic ability with some esoteric concept of "nativeness", thus excluding many people and giving them no way to accurately describe themselves.  This esoteric concept of nativeness is irrelevant to my ability to contribute to Wikipedia, and I could describe myself as a native English speaker (and I have made similar claims in the past when it was professionally convenient to me as an English teacher), but since English is not my first language and not the language I speak with many of my family, the description grates on me.  — Pekinensis 7 July 2005 19:41 (UTC)
:Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a soapbox.  Let it go.  Or change "Native" to say "Primary", or "Maternal", like the French Wikipedia.  Easy enough.  ℬastique▼talk 7 July 2005 20:18 (UTC)
We are not talking about the article space, we are talking about individual user pages.
I don't think it's a difficult question; to be accurate for a wider range of users and to be closer to its purpose, the template should read "This user is able to contribute with a native level of English".  However I didn't feel like stirring up a hornet's nest by making that change, so I chose to create a template which would not affect any who do not choose to be affected.
As a side point, I believe that "first language" and "maternal language" are worse than "native language" for my purpose, because they make more concrete false claims.  — Pekinensis 7 July 2005 20:43 (UTC)
: Seems that the idea why Babel is for is getting vague. 
::: ..aid multilingual communication by making it easier to contact someone who speaks a certain language
: the purpose is to indicate to other users what languages one understands and which level, so if somebody wants to leave note then knows which language to use, they may have common language which they feel comfortable to communicate. It doesn't matter is it very good or excellent or super excellent in this case. ... let's keep them in these 4 levels and if somebody wants, feels need to more precisely define the her/his language level then feel free to do it in homepage, let's not clutter this system here.
: the fourth (native) level addition to Babel "system" is good in some cases when there is need to ask help for something related to this language, but even then for example native english speaker from UK and native english speaker from US may have different understanding for way language should be used, so  even then it is just another opinion which may be as good as somebody who has en-3 level. ... anyway at end of the day it is just one's opinion about her/his language abilities (nobody stops to advertise yourself as expert of tens of language it will be her/his problem to fill the claims) --TarmoK 8 July 2005 12:15 (UTC)
I agree; we should keep them in these 4 levels, and if somebody wants to more precisely define their language level, they can feel free to do it on their homepage, for example, by adding the template , which does not clutter or interact with the system here.  — Pekinensis 8 July 2005 14:06 (UTC)
   The question may grate on some; but I believe the distinction between "native language" and "spoken almost like a native" has some usefulness, especially for display on user pages, where a user will probably want to communicate things about him/herself beyond just "of what use can I be to the Wikipedia?". I don't feel awkward when writing in English, and I believe that maybe I talk better English than "some" natives, but I would never call myself a native speaker of English. I speak Esperanto just as well as any other, but Esperanto has very few native speakers and it is not they who set the language norm. So I listed en-4 and eo-4 on my user page; only French got the "honour" of being listed as "my native language".    The concept of people without a native language may seem strange but it is not meaningless, not only in the case mentioned, but also e.g. for adopted children who have forgotten their biological parents' language, etc.    I know people with several "native" languages, such as father's language, mother's language, language of kindergarten and grade school schoolmates, etc. This may sound off-topic for the thread, but it has bearing on what the ??-N template should say: In French, for instance, it says literally "French is this person's mother language". That seems to imply that no-one has more than one native language, and also, it reflects on the fact that French has no neutral term for "native language" as distinct from "mother language". Indeed when one of my friends says, in French, "My father language is Arabic and my mother language is French", it makes people smile. And two isn't the limit: I have met people whose children could say "My mother language is Dutch, my father language is Danish and my family language is Esperanto". So I prefer the more neutral text in the en-N template: "This user is a native speaker of English"; but how to say that accurately and neutrally in (for instance) French? Even though French is my mother native language, I am at a loss. -- Tonymec 03:07, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  No native language 

message: Ok, I give up. I noticed that on my user page, that there were two problems with the the Babel categories. First tl-N wouldn't show up. I got to the bottom of that. Second, when I clicked on tl-N it would take me to the page where it's supposed to show me Wikipedians whose native language is Tagalog. However, it only shows Template:User tl. I'm not even on there. I've looked at the source of other languages and it looks like everything is good. But obviously I am missing an important step. Could anyone help? Thanks. --Chris 09:52, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok I solved this problem. What needed to be done was resubmit my User page and then I can show up.  I did this for other uses too. Problem solved.  --Chris 19:43, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Trouble with tl-N

message: When was this level created and why isn't it mentioned on the Wikipedia: page?
Acegikmo1 01:02, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Regrettable move, in my opinion. When this Babel thing was being discussed in its early days on commons:commons:babel there were just three levels - "1", "2", "3". Accepting the new idea "0" gives four. Then someone decided that "3" wasn't the same as native so devised the "N" as a 4th or 5th class. Some "native" speakers then had a problem because they were better at another language than in their native language - which was not a problem when "3" covered both. Now the English WP is moving to have a "4" as well, which results in six classes and even more argument about what each one means (not to mention the fact that old templates for "3" will become incorrect in the new terms without their "owners" realising it). Even now there's no "4" on Meta or on Commons, which should be more centralised standard-setters than "en". How about everybody going back to the standards at commons:commons:babel and working there to get consensus rather than branching out here? Robin Patterson 13:22, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  xx-4 

message: I noticed that on the esperanto wikipedia, the syntax for the Babel templates was not exactly the same - for a native speaker, you write "en-D" (D for "denaske", native) and not "en". I partially solved the problem by making copies of the "en-D" template into a corresponding "en" template.
I think that it's important for users to easily copy and paste babel templates between languages - if there's a template whose syntax shouldn't vary across wikipedialand, it's this one, since it's users overlaps with those most likely to have multiple user pages.
I'm just putting this here for the record in case this problem reccurs :) Flammifer 14:48, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incompatible templates 

message: Would someone with more knowledge of the code required be so kind as to create a Babel template for Ancient Greek? Thanks in advance! Nightstallion 08:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template for Ancient Greek 

message: There has been some discussions about the addition of Babel tags in Wu dialect (吴语, aka Shanghaiese 上海话) in Chinese Wikipedia. Also see IANA registration.--Hello World! 04:00, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese dialects 

message: Hello - I created a new template for "other languages" - ie, languages with very few speakers or with no widely used written form (such as deaf sign languages). Contributors writing about such languages may wish to identify themselves as users of the language, even though they are only writing about it in English. It's not perfect and doesn't work in the Babel template (as it has a nested variable which allows you to specify the 'other language' in question). Here are two examples of how it might look:
Another example of it in use is on my user page (I can't get the table to format properly - I don't know much about wiki syntax/HTML, so suggestions are of course welcome!). Cheers  :)  ntennis 07:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Although there isn't any ISO639 language code for "ol" yet, I do find it unfortunate to use it anyway - it may become used in the future. A good solution would be to use "other" but that would totally wreck the template as it's obviously too long... TERdON 10:46, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How about xx? They usually leave codes like that free... Haven't checked it, though. ナイトスタリオン…ㇳ–ㇰ 11:03, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

text: xx is the better option. Usually xx or x prefixes and codes are reserved for non-standard or experimental (hence the x) variations, so that'd work. ol could likely be used in the future. Ashmodai 11:59, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

text: In ISO 639-2, sgn is for sign language, and mis is for "	Miscellaneous languages" --Hello World! 13:22, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If at all it is for sign languages or the American sign language. There is no "sign language". I'd assume making sgn and mis templates with a variable for the particular language's name would work. We already have alpha-3 languages listed anyway. Ashmodai 15:37, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I missed the s. sgn should be "sign languages". See ISO 639--Hello World! 04:34, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Looks better. Same thing for mis and we're done, I say. Ashmodai 10:59, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the generic language template because it would allow me to make one for Elvish. (Not that I am likely to do so. But I could. You might want to consider whether major conlangs count. There's already an Esperanto template...) However, I find the wording a little awkward. An other language is an odd phrase. A miscellaneous language would work, although I'm not sure why it needs to say anything at all. ("This user is a native speaker of Walpiri," in the example, would be sufficient.) -Aranel ("Sarah") 17:03, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

text: mis works for that. Walpiri and Tolkienese Elvish are both perfect examples for minor (i.e. "miscellaneous" or "other" -- i.e. "less notable") languages. Ashmodai 18:11, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

text: What is so strange, or so outlandish, about the existence of an Esperanto [set of] templates? Not only it's a language spoken by somewhere between tens of thousands and millions of people (depending who you ask), scattered all over the world, it even has a full-fledged Wikipedia of its own, with over 25,000 articles. -- Tonymec 03:33, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other languages 

message: This is a bit O/T, but it made me think that maybe we could expand on this concept to add other user-competency/familiarity tags.
* User location templates -- the general metro area in which a user lives, other places they visit regularly, places they've lived in the past, places they've visited, places visit on occasion...
* User era templates -- decades/periods in which the person has a conscious familiarity, eras in which the user has studied or is a fan of, etc.
* User occupation templates -- fields and skills the user has professional to intimate knowledge of
Thoughts? - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 17:53, July 28, 2005 (UTC)
:I like the idea in principal, but I can't really think of anything other than languages that would be useful.--MarSch 09:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Interwiki links? Maybe something in the line of [ fr ___ This user has an account in the French Wikipedia ] It would make it more obvious than the small link out of the main page body: see a comment section on that further down. -- Tonymec 10:20, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expansion on the user language template idea. 

message: I was just wondering about this...
Would it be possible to map the definitions of the Babel templates to the language proficiency levels used by the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages and the Association of Language Testers in Europe?
Under this scheme, Lang-0 would be the ALTE 'Breakthrough' level, when basic concepts have just been learned.  Lang-1 would be ALTE level 1, Lang-2 would be ALTE level 2, and so on and so forth.  (It would be assumed that ALTE level 5, which represents 'complete native command' of a language, would be the same as Wikipedia's Lang-N level.)
The CEF/ALTE ranking levels have been used by multiple bodies (not just in Europe, here in the US too) to compare language ability, and I think it'd be a good idea for the Babel templates to link to them.  I don't think it would involve too much work, since the levels more or less map up already (ALTE 3 / CEF B2 matches up to Babel-3 nicely, and so on and so forth) -- it would just be a way of standardizing what each level means.  Almafeta 01:58, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Standardizing is a good idea. I was afraid at first that the proficiency levels would correspond to some test, but fortunately it seems that a description is also available. As such I have no objection to changing. Perhaps we need to add a minus one level for users who need to express that they don't speak a language at all.--MarSch 09:55, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mapping Babel templates to ALTE/CEF levels?

message: In the body of the Babel page, "Aramaic" and "Assamese" display the same name in national script. One of them is obviously in error, but which one? If you know one of those languages, please check that its name is correctly written. -- Tonymec 02:17, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aramaic or Assamese ? 

message: Should this category be renamed to fit in with the overall categ Wikipedians structure? Thanks, Ian Cairns 17:15, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would actually like to see all of the user language categories renamed to something at least attempting to follow usual standards for categories. As they stand they read like a secret code and aren't much help to the casual browser or to someone looking at a user page. :Category:Wikipedians who speak French, for example, would make more sense than :Category:User fr. Of course, making the move would be a massive effort that would require "dummy edits"  to all of the user pages that use the templates... -Aranel ("Sarah") 15:33, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just simple page with links to categories can do the work, something similar to Dutch wiki --TarmoK 17:21, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that we should rename the categories. --MarSch 10:03, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Category: User languages -> Wikipedians by languages ??

message: It's just for fun. I'm suggesting the creation of user language templates for Constructed languages (like Languages of Middle-earth or Gibberish). See User:BlankVerse for an example. What do you think? CG 17:14, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
:I've already had great fun in my user page with the xx-0 templates, listing languages I want to learn but can't parse yet.  I wouldn't be against this...  heck, with enough, it would turn the Babel template into a 'pokédex' entry for every Wikipedian.  (Wikidex?)  Almafeta 21:38, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be concerned about where to draw the line.  Genuine artificial languages such as Esperanto and Interlingua are fine - there is a legitimate and sizable community of people who speak them.  But beyond that, there's already a set of templates for Klingon, and in my view even that is pushing it. Do we really want people cluttering up what could be useful information with templates for Sindarin? Gorean? Houyhnhnm? -EDM 22:07, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, knowing Quenya would be very relevant if one is working on a large number of Tolkien-related articles. I think we have to leave this up to the user's discretion. We can't really stop people from putting imitation boxes on their users pages, anyway. -Aranel ("Sarah") 01:30, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps we should stipulate that such templates not have a 2 letter abbrev. --MarSch 10:16, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What about Aramaic? Asturian? Cherokee? Friulian? Classical Greek? Hawaiian? Hessian? Plattdüütsch? Sicilian? Scots? Sign languages? Cantonese? Neither is their Babel abbreviation a two-letter one; but ban them all, and I can see the backlash you'll get. -- Tonymec 11:07, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I would say to allow them, as long as a Wikipedian is actually using them.  There are active speakers and users of a number of languages, and we shouldn't set bars for 'language notability' for either real or constructed languages.  And besides, isn't allowing Wikipedians to form groups around a common topic, even if it's a 'non-serious' one like being able to speak Loglan or Europanto, a vital part of keeping Wikipedia alive and well?  Almafeta 22:47, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Also, as to 'cluttering up'...  we have 7 lines on each of 200+ languages.  It's not going to get much smaller.  Almafeta 22:53, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I would say to allow all languages with language codes in ISO 639, a two- or three-letter one. I may seem to be very permissive, but who is to tell what languages are "serious enough"??? Sign languages share sgn as they already do. All other languages, including ALL (sic!) conlanguages would have to share the "mis" miscellanous template, ie they are visible but lumped together. A pity there isn't a separate one for conlanguages though, it would have been good as they ARE a bit special. Also a classification with "miscellanous dead languages" and "miscellanous living languages" would have been great, but I'm going to keep to my first thought proposal. There aren't very many mis-users anyway, at least until someone contacts ISO to correct the problem. ;-) I would be more restrictive with "joke" templates though - actually I wouldn't want to allow any template not using the ISO 639 codes, or at least not a code+locale (en-UK). The babel system is supposed to be helpful - even for people that are non-native speakers who perhaps don't know what gibberish is. Conlangs as klingon, quenya, esperanto, volapük and even Toki Pona would all be allowed with this construction though (under mis if not with its own code). TERdON 23:36, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Checked the page on ISO 639, to my great luck there is a special code for conlangs, art (as in artificial). Also, except mis and sgn, there also are quite a few codes that seem to be for language groups. Because of that, I suggest all conlangs without own codes go into art, all sign languages go into sgn, and all other (ie natural) languages go into mis. The language groups could possibly be used to arrange this even more later, but for now I think those three will suffice. Also there is a category und (undecided) for unknown origin. That shouldn't be used as it really doesn't help at all in achieving what we are aiming for. ;-) TERdON 00:36, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There was some discussion above about creating "miscellaneous" language templates, with a parameter to allow the user to define the language. The same thing has been done with sign languages. Then all these misc language users would be on the one category page. If someone is keen but needs help modifying an existing template, drop me a note on my talk page. ntennis 03:24, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

text: In creating my user page for the first time, I looked at a few sample pages of other users, came across "Babel" and picked out a few languages, then saw the non-serious languages.  I see there's Pig latin.  Wubbell, yubbou ubbare mubbissubbing ubbanubbothubber lubbangubbuage: Ubba Dubbi.  Subbince yubbou hubbave ubbigpubbay ubbatubbinlubbay ubbalrubbeadubby, ubbi thubbought, "whubby nubbot ubbadd Ubba Dubbi tubboo?"  Bubbut ubbi dubbon't knubbow hubbow tubbo dubbo thubbat. Aumakua 06:49, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-serious user templates 

message: Your browser/comp is at fault; not the internet or WP servers. You'd need to have a unicode compatible Hindi font first. Then set up your browser to autodetect the encoding. Lastly ensure that you're seeing the correct rendering. (Read: Wikipedia:Enabling complex text support for Indic scripts). =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:56, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
:OK, thanks Nichalp.  I just spent the last hour or so trying to get a unicode Devanagari script to work on my PC and gave up.  That's OK.  At least now I know, why all question marks on my computer.  Still, my educated guess is that probably 99% of all non-Indians read all ?'s as well, as none of them have any real reason to take all of the trouble needed to make their computers Devanagari compatible.  If you ever wanted others like myself to read anything but question marks there, I'd be happy to help.  Also, if you might be curious as to whether or not my theory about what percentage of Wiki users are seeing all question marks is correct, we could put in a 'request for comment' on the Wiki-talk/ Request-for-comment page, and either prove or disprove my theory by getting other Wiki users to comment on what they see in these language tags.  Thanks again.
:-Scott P. 19:50:24, 2005-08-20 (UTC)
::Well, the issue is with the browser. WinXP has most of the fonts needed to view Indic text. I believe Internet explorer also supports rendering of unicoded text correctly. The same can be achieved in Linux/Firefox combination. Most of the browsers I have seen in my university computers show them correctly. Of course, win98 or ME does not have unicode support, but now I guess many of the users use WinXP. So, I think very few non-Indians should have problem viewing unicoded text in the Windows platform. Thanks. --Ragib 23:15, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Browser and script considerations... 

message: For those interested, the current colors used on the various templates are displayed on the right. – ABCD✉ 23:33, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Colors 

message: Wiki Comment section volunteers, please leave your observation comments here regarding how successful your computer is at showing Hindi script.  Do you see Hindi language characters of question marks as inquired about at: The request for comment section?  Thanks:
:============= Comments below =================
* - I see everything fine.  My OS/Browser combo is XP and either IE or Firefox.  Of course, I turn on all the asian fonts in XP.  That should be all that is required on XP or 2000 with either browser.  That XP doesn't install these fonts by default... blame Microsoft.  SchmuckyTheCat 00:12, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indic script compatibility observation comments 

message: I saw we add Binary to the Babel entries, but with only 3 categories.
Such as:
*bi-1 - Can speak binary with a medium - little reference.
*bi-2 - Can speak binary with little to no help.
*bi-3 - Can speak binary to another person of the same understanding.
*bi-4 - Can speak binary fluently and can hold a flowing conversation with another fluent Binary speaker.
- RPharazon 17:06, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
Binary is not a language, it is a representation. What about "Can speak ASCII", "Can speak Cyrillic", "Can speak decimal"? -- Tonymec 18:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Binary? 

message: Why on Earth do we have a category for 1337? It isn't even a language, FCOL! It's just a nerdy way of writing English. Shouldn't we have categories for Smurf-speak and Yoda-speak while we're at it? — JIP | Talk 15:18, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we have Klingon... It's just a bit of fun really. --Celestianpower hablamé 21:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The difference is that Klingon is a language in every relevant sense of the word. And for Star Trek-related articles I can imagine knowledge of the language is useful; therefore, the template aids the collaboration of Wikipedia users, which as far as I know is the point of Babel templates. None of this applies to 1337. EldKatt (Talk) 16:34, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1337? 

message: I would really like to help. Now, I'm a gora too and have read this all. My humble suggestions are: to keep it in Devanagari. Only an extended Roman font can represent all the sounds, and this provides the same viewing problems (btw Mac OSX Tiger + Safari browser बढ़िया है!) for people without unicode compatability. Everybody needs to figure it out sooner later, its the future. The Indian, Pakistani and state of Tamil Nadu's governments are all members. My second observation is that even at first glance it looked too "purified," like the artificial attempts of nationalist groups. I'm sure this wasn't conscious, but things are too "Sanskritized" IMHO. I'm just wondering what resources you use? My level of Hindi is probably best seen on the page I largely created and need more help with here. In addition, I'll ask my Hindi teacher what she thinks. She would know if it sounds natural or not. Maybe it does work. But an example of what I'm talking about is सभ्य (or sabhya if you see ???). Especially when it comes to the internet. I think यूसर (yūsar) would work just as well, though I'm sure there are other ways to express it without using Hinglish. Leave me a message if I can help. फिर मिलेंगे! Khirad 13:33, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Am I too late to help with anything?

message: Wiktionary has just begun implementing the Babel templates (Wiktionary:Wiktionary:Babel) and categories - simply copy-pasting all the stuff in here and Wiktionarifying it. Arguably it is more useful there than here, due to its nature as a language-based wiki. So if one needs to know a foreign word, you could ask the Wiktionarians too if there's no pedians there to answer. --Wonderfool t(c) 09:58, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wiktionary:Wiktionary:Babel]] 

message: en	This user is a native speaker of English.
Whose bright idea was this!? The babel box looks like crap now! If you necessarily need a link to the language in question, make it where the supercategory :Category:User_xx currently is. --Salleman 16:59, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: de has had it for some time; it has now spread to fr, es, it and maybe more. I rather like it. Definitely not "crap" IMO. — Tonymec 12:00, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm rather indifferent about it. It's not something I missed before, but now that it's there, why not? More links and more information. Why not. I say leave it as it is. (But please also link the xx-4 templates; currently, my en-4 is the only unlinked language. ;)) —  ナイトスタリオン ㇳ–ㇰ — 13:41, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  linking the ISO 639 code 

message: I noticed that some people have a list of silly languages in their bable, such as CyberSkull. Is there a list of these things? TIA! --The Minister of War 13:21, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No. It's just a Mac programmer. They tend to do things like that. Better keep your distance -- I heard they sacrify puppies. Ashmodai 08:46, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silly languages 

message: How about CRS-4 : "This Geezer rabbits David." ?  I'd do it myself, but don't have the time right now...! Codex Sinaiticus 19:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  CRS template? 

message: How can I make a box that will nicely fit inside the Babel template when passed as a parameter? - ElAmericano 22:14, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plugin Boxes 

message: Anyone want to make a template like :Template:User_fox for Opera? --Jtalledo (talk) 23:45, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: seems to be what you are looking for. Wikiacc (talk) 20:20, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There seems to be a unordinate amount of templates that are not linked from the main page. Is there any other "all encompassing" list of  templates somewhere? --Stux 20:41, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This may be a good place to start (although it does contain many false positives). Wikiacc (talk) 21:46, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow! Thank you very much! Actually, I clicked on several arbitrary links (maybe 1/2%-1%) and surprisingly I got few view false positives.  And all of the ones that were, seemed to be attempts at templates that were never finished. --Stux 00:25, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opera 

message: Creation of the Udmurt wikipedia seems to be a good cause to create also the Babel-templates for Udmurt-speaking people. 
Удмурт (Udmurt)
1. Со адями удмурт кылын ӧжыт вераськыны быгатэ
2. Со адями удмурт кылын гожъяны но лыдӟыны быгатэ
3. Со адями удмурт кылэз туж ӟеч тодэ
4. Со адями удмурт кылэз анай кылэз кадь тодэ
N. Со адямилы удмурт кыл – анай кыл
Word-by-word translation of sentences:
1. This human_being Udmurt in_language a_few speak can
2. This human_being Udmurt in_language write and read can
3. This human_being Udmurt language_it very good knows
4. This human_being Udmurt language_it mother language_it as knows 
N. This for_human_being Udmurt language – mother language
--Denis Sacharnych 07:16, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Udmurt template 

message: See
# my proposal Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29#Babylon_project._A_new_model_similar_to_Babel_to_help_the_traduction
# a begin of an implementation User:Jmfayard where I show how it could look like.
This model, inspired by Babel, seems to me to be far less complex than the current Wikipedia:Translators available and Wikipedia:Translation into English, and would also work much better
especially on smaller wikipedias and with small languages.
:fr:User:Jmfayard 17:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Babel is great to indicate language skills. Why do we do not do the same for the translators ? 

message: I've created some new templates for Babel:
* - elementary school students 
* - junior high students 
* - middle school students, alternative for 
* - graduate school students 
* - high school students
* - college students
* - university students, alternative for 
Enjoy! --Ixfd64 07:42, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  new Babel templates! 

message: I've made some more specific templates for Babel:
* - high school freshmen
* - high school sophomores
* - high school juniors
* - high school seniors
* - college freshmen
* - college sophomores
* - college juniors
* - college seniors
There's more on the way! :-D --Ixfd64 07:54, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Aren't these a tad Americo-centric? Even in Canada we don't use the terms "freshmen", "sophomores", etc. that often. I don't understand the systems they have in Britain or continental Europe, but those are completely incompatible to these. Not to mention the rest of the world. -- ran (talk) 06:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  more Babel templates! 

message: I've made a template for Wikipedia bureaucrats:
*
I've also made some templates for those people in choir:
* - sopranos
* - altos
* - tenors
* - basses
All right, I've made enough templates for now. :) --Ixfd64 08:12, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  even more templates! 

message: I've tried to backport Babel as it's implemented on fy:. The advantage is that there's no need to name the number of arguments in advance. This does require one extra Template that will dissolve unspecified arguments into emptyness. The equivalent or the choice on Fy: would be :Template:User. However, that template was already taken, so I implemented the backport with:
; Babellist : The test babel replacement.
; BabelUser : The empty entry.
; BabelUser en, BabelUser en-0, etc. : The language level entries. I made only 10, en + fr, to test with.
These are the results of the templates  and
:
I know the actual entries don't make much sense; I only used them to demonstrate the template.
To implement this system:
* Babellist should probably be css-ed. I'm not sure if it could be used to replace Babel directly; alternatively it could be used under its current name until older uses have been updated, at which point it could be renamed to Babel, leaving a redirect. It may need extending; currently it's only good for 16 arguments.
* The current structure of the language bar templates appears to function with this system as well (though I did wish for a BabelBar template). To use them as they are now is not possible, as Template:User already exists for another purpose. It might be a good thing to move/copy them to BabelUser_etc anyway, since the current name is rather general considering the templates belong to a specific project. Alternatively, the existing User template could be renamed to make room for an empty template.
Don't use the test versions of the language bars, as some were converted from fy: and hence are coded slightly differently.
Aliter 01:00, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improved design 

message: Following the Wikipedia:Featured articles in other languages, I've created here some templates to replace Template:FAOL which were used to point out to articles that are featured in other language (see Talk:World War II). These new templates are Babel-like to be less space-comsuming. But I need your help to create a template like  to add multiple boxes. And also, do you think we should write them in the language of the article they're pointing to? CG 20:35, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured articles in other languages 

message: I notice that when a person uses a Babel template on their user page, a Category link is automatically added to the bottom of the page as well.  This is a nice feature but it seems unfortunate that the Category links are named after the Wikipedia node for that language -- i.e. "User en", "User es-1", etc.   I think it would be helpful if these links were made "English speakers", "Spanish speakers" and so on.
I see that the templates implement this by making the links say things like .  Does this mean that what I want could be achieved by passing a PAGENAME parameter to the  template?  I'm still trying to understand how to use parameters with templates (and in any case I would prefer that this was the default behavior for the Babel templates).
Any thoughts?  I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something fundamental about Wikipedia templates. :-)
Tim Pierce 15:50, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better Category links? 

message: Why don't we change the title of the user language categories to more comprehensible ones. For example "French speaking users" instead of "User fr"? It poses when searching for a language I don't know its code. CG 21:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category names 

message: "This user is able to contribute on an advanced level of English," for example. "On an advanced level" sounds extremely awkward. How about "using" instead of "on"? --YixilTesiphon Say hello 21:13, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The phrasing of the templates 

message: It's possible that I am incorrect on this, but the Wikipedia:Babel translation for Latin is wrong.  
This is the Latin that is found, for example, in the template on the profile of a user who has classified himself as la-1:
Hic usor simplice latinitate contribuere potest.  
This was translated as: 
This user is able to contribute with a basic level of Latin. 
Potest is not, in fact, the present 3rd singular active indicative form of the Latin for 'to be able (to)'.  That word's principle parts are as follows: possum, posse, potui, --.  The correct form in this instance would be possit.  
Also, the word Latinate is not, in fact, a Latin word.  The Latin word for Latin is Latinus, -a, -um, so the correct form for the ablative singular would be Latino for a masculine user, and Latina for a feminine user.  The reason for the case in this sentence is because simplice Latina is ablative of means (by which something is done).
The singular of this sentence would thus be:
Hic usor simplice Latino contribuere possit.
The plural would be:
Hi usores simplice Latino contribuere possunt.
Moved from Category_talk:User_la
Shinimitsukai 13:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You are wrong. The third person indicative present active singular form of posse is potest. And from your explanation of why it should be Latino or Latina I'm getting the impression that you don't really know too much about grammer, no offence meant: Latinitate is an ablative of Latinitas, and is most definitely independent of the gender of the user. The template is fine as it is.  ナイトスタリオン ✉ 14:19, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Potest is correct, obviously, though I'd rather see latine than latinitate. -EDM 17:11, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible correction in Wikipedia:Babel's Latin. 

message: If you want to revert this change, go ahead, but I'm taking the languages that don't actually have an ISO character set OFF of the babel page and moving them to Wikipedia:Userboxes/Non-ISO_Languages. As a self-professed userbox addict, I'd really like to feel contributory, and as such am endeavoring to make the userbox space as happy as can be. (After all, does the ISO have a code for Klingon? for Quenya? for 1337speak?) Cernen 14:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As Gene McGuire once said in Layer Cake, "Stick to your f*cking sums." Revert from my version to the previous one; maybe next time I should keep from using big words and do a little more research before ripping things out of Wikipedia namespace pages. Cernen 15:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nonsense languages that aren't ISO compliant