Talk:Rock and roll/Archive 1

message: :In 1995, Canadian pop star Alanis Morissette released Jagged Little Pill, a major hit that featured blunt, personally-revealing lyrics, and spawning a wave of late 90s confessional female rock releases by artists including Jewel, Tori Amos, Fiona Apple, and Liz Phair.
Tori Amos (Little Earthquakes 1992) and Liz Phair (Exile in Guyville 1993) were putting out "confessional female rock releases" before anyone had heard of Alanis Morrissette.  Perhaps they got more exposure from the chick rock fad, but their work was not "spawned" by Alanis Morrissette..  --65.147.0.75 11:49, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Current (1995-present)

message: It looks like this editor did add a few things but also removed a lot -- I'm not going to sort through it all and have simply reverted but I'd encourage the editor to add your new material without deleting others'.  If you think something is wrong or doesn't belong, please discuss it here.  Jgm 19:54, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Today's edits by user at ip 64.222.226.14 

message: The article says:
:Going back even further, Rock and Roll can trace a foundational lineage to the old Five Points district of mid-19th century New York City, the scene of the first fusion of heavily rhythmic African shuffles and sand dances with melody driven European genres, particularly the Irish jig
Wasn't New Orleans the site of a similar fusion between musical styles, albeit perhaps a bit later than Five Points, in the 1860s or 1870s?  I recall a PBS documentary about the city a year or so ago...in the years immediately following the end of the Civil War, there was a lot of interaction between different groups, including transmission of music.  After all, the Mississippi from Memphis down to New Orleans seems to have been the birthplace of practically every other American musical tradition...  --Sewing 15:37, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Precursors and Origins

message: The article says this:
:But by the end of the 1970s, new, hard-edged formats would begin to develop, forcing Disco on the back burner. One night in 1979, at Yankee Stadium, thousands of fans staged "Disco sucks" protests by crushing and burning their disco vinyl records.
Before I go and change the article, I wanted to get some feedback on the following facts...
The event in question is the culmination of the disco backlash, which happened at Comiskey Park in Chicago, not in New York. Furthermore, it didn't happen because hard-edged formats were beginning to develop. Disco was simply too popular for its own good. The event was the organized by Steve Dahl, then a DJ for WLUP. He staged Disco Demolition Night on July 12, 1979, to occur in the middle of a double header between the White Sox and the Detroit Tigers. Fans were supposed to bring disco records to be blown up. Instead a riot ensued, the ballpark was trashed, and White Sox were forced to forfeit the second game. Fans of rock were attacking what they thought was vapid, sugar coated, and commercial. Their critics argued that they were simply racists and homophobes. In any case, disco was never quite the same.
--Trweiss 05:14, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Disco Sucks Revolt

message: There is no mention of glam rock. There are also other names for it, but it is disputed if it is one and the same thing, like: Hairspray rock, Spandex rock, Glam (short for Glam rock). So what would be the difference between, for example, Hairspray rock and Spandex rock? Maby bands that put spray on their hair but not wear spandex are called Hairspray rock and those that wear spandex but no spray on their hair are Spandex rock? However, I doubt that such bands exist, since they all were wearing spandex and had sprayed hair. Can anyone suggest a "Hairspray rock only" or "Spandex rock only" band? Also, it is disputed if Glam rock and Hair metal are not one and the same things. Maby someone could clarify that once and for all. Few examples by how some bands sound and look: 
Poison (spandex + hairspray = glam rock ?, Motley Crue (spandex + hairspray + hair metal = glam rock or hair metal ?), Def Leppard (spandex + hairspray = glam rock ?, Europe (spandex + hairspray = glam rock ?) ..so bands that are "spandex only" or "hairspray only" are VERY rare or even don't exist. One + another can thus be called Glam rock or short just Glam. And those who have little stronger riffs but still wear spandex and have sprayed hairs are then called Hair metal. So basically, the rock ends where metal begins. The softest metal bands are also on the border with the hardest rock bands. It would be however interesting to discuss if there was a band that never sprayed their hairs but wore spandex and played metal. How would be they called then, Spandex metal :-) ?
Hair metal covers metal bands such as Pantera et al where as glam rock (IMHO) would be Gary Glitter and suchlike.
Selphie 13:13, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glam rock 

message: I have two questions:
# Why is it "rock 'n' roll" and not "rock'n'roll"? Whenever apostrophes are involved, words are fused into one: "that's", "shouldn't", "isn't" and so on. Comparable items I found within the wikipedia are "jump'n'run", Wash'n'Roll and Bump 'n' Jump. Non-conform examples are Rock n' Roll Nights, Pac 'n Roll, Suburban Rock 'N' Roll - they seem to be misspelled.
# Is Salsa a kind of rock music? In Germany, we have found an article in the "Duden" - Germany's official orthographical dictionary - that claims salsa was "a kind of rock music". We doubt that. Can anyone comment on that? 
Comments on: :de:Benutzer Diskussion:Thetawave
:That link appears to be to a talk for a de article that doesn't exist, so I'm responding here.  Regarding the rock 'n' roll vs rock'n'roll question -- I'm not sure what you're asking.  Do you want to move this article?  I don't really care (rock and roll, rock 'n' roll and rock'n'roll are all fine by me).  Regarding salsa, it is most certainly not a kind of rock and roll by any reasonable definition.  However, many people use rock and roll with an unreasonable definition, basically meaning it as a synonym for Western popular music.  Rock had an influence on salsa, but it would be very misleading to call salsa a kind of rock. Tuf-Kat 21:18, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
::Oops, sorry I messed up that link. I have fixed it: :de:Benutzer Diskussion:Thetawave. No, I don't want to move this article, "rock and roll" is fine. It seems somebody in Germany once chose "Rock 'n' Roll" was the real deal - a strange combination of apostrophes, spaces and capital letters that keeps on confusing even the officials such as the German r'n'r confederation http://www.drbv.de. Since even the world rock'n'roll confederation http://www.wrrc.org use "rock'n'roll" without spaces we started wondering how come someone added spaces at all.
:::Please Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks. Hyacinth 23:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why "rock 'n' roll" instead of "rock'n'roll"? What about Salsa? 

message: I don't have a lot of time to go into it, but I feel the radical re-org and breaking up of this article into hard-to-find sub-articles is a disaster. I know it was done with the best of intentions but it ended up as the worst of results... This groveling at the feet of the silly "40k limit" is becoming very destructive to Wikipedia and a counter-movement is very much needed. All other top-notch compendiums, from the Encyclopedia Brtiannica to the Talmud, understand that major topics need to be treated thoroughly in one place without sending the reader on endless trinket hunts to get a full discussion of the topic... I will be reversing the re-org in a few days barring compelling counter-reasons given here in that time. JDG 04:25, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you be more specific about what you want to change, and why? Which articles would you merge here? Tuf-Kat 00:30, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-Org should be reversed 

message: Concerning the "Decline and rebirth" of rock and roll: By the end of the 1950s, Elvis Presley was in the Army, Buddy Holly was dead, Chuck Berry was in jail, Alan Freed was a man broken by the payola scandal (he died soon after), and Dick Clark was exerting his "whitening" (or anti-Alan Freed, anyway)influence on the business through "American Bandstand".  So, I think that these events need to be considered in any discussion of the decline of the first wave of rock music.
Concerning the origins of rock and roll, I'd like to point out that Lieber and Stoller were writing and producing rhythm and blues (race) music for black acts in the early 1950s in Los Angeles, and then in the mid-to-late 1950s were writing music for Elvis Presley.  I point this out because I think that, because their song-writing style really did not change across this time span, they need to be seen as a link or conduit from rhythm and blues to rock and roll, and that rock and rock developed over time in a transitional manner, i.e., it did not just start on, say, June 30, 1955.
:The aftermath of the decline may have begun with the late 60s tendency to talk about groups as "rock and roll bands". By the punk era there was a bit of a UK revival with Matchbox (named after Matchbox (song) having some success, and Shakin' Stevens following on. As for the early and prehistory, The Church of Rock and Roll A Brief History of Rock and Roll gives an alternative view which looks pretty credible to me, and doesn't look out of line with points in the article. ....dave souza 22:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Polka music fell away, too. Hillbilly music became practically nonexistent, falling from the most-favored common music in the United States.  Hillbilly music had been on jukeboxes in public places everywhere.  Rock and roll music was not the only type of music to falter in the later 1950s.  As the entire nation changed, several popular genres fell into disuse.  Perhaps Motown music displaced them, I do not know for sure.  The peoples' taste in music changed as the mature people became old and those born at the fabulous baby boom replaced them.  The young people were not attracted to Rock and roll, Polka, and Hillbilly music.  
Superslum 12:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  decline and rebirth of rock and roll 

message: ...and other mispellings such as rock n roll and rock n'roll  :-)~
Nothing about Bobby Lee Trammell? (You mostest girl/Uh oh) FABOR FA 002, 1958 and many others... Stephan KŒNIG 00:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  rock'n'rRoll... 

message: i don't feel like going into some lengthy argument here, but it is unnacceptable to categorize "rock" and "rock and roll" as two different genres simply due to what it was called in it's day. the early beatles without a doubt recognized themselves as a rock and roll band, even though they are not included in this article. into the late seventies the term "rock and roll" was still in frequent use, and "rock" was simply an abbreviation. it's as if this was a musical genre that flourished for a few years but died in the sixties, to be replaced by "rock" music. if this were true, elvis and buddy holly would not have been venerated as demigods, but rather the leaders of a brief musical fad. i don't disagree with maybe (MAYBE) having an article contrasting the rock and roll of the 1950s' with later styles, but rock (and roll) was still too young to be divided into subgenres. ever heard of the phrase "sex drugs and rock and roll"? or did you all forget that the original "rockers" listened to what this article calls "rock and roll"? just imagine asking any rock star if he was in a rock and roll band, would he correct you to say "rock"? throughout the progression of popular music, the phrase "rock" did not replace "rock and roll" at the same time as jimi hendrix replaced elvis, the phrase emerged as an abbreviation, with nothing necessarily synchronous with the development of music, it is merely a coincidence (they even share the same infobox as "rock music"). for the love of god, could the split of this
article be reconsidered? Joeyramoney 02:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, rock (and roll) was still too young to be divided into subgenres? Rockabilly, Doowop, Louisiana whatever you call Fats Domino? It was a label plastered over a lot of musical styles, and was devalued by '63. By early Beatles guess you mean the Hamburg days, but about then it was/became beat music. No-one here was calling surf or the twist rockn'roll, but they're equally ancestral to the rock group stuff that became rock. Ever heard of the phrase "sex drugs and rock and roll"- as in Iain Dury late '70s pubrock? By the end of the '60s we were nostalgic enough to ask "do you believe in rock n' roll?", and to admit it's only rock  n' roll but I like it, but in '63 Elvis was a fat ballad singer (if wooden doll is rock n' roll, you can keep it), we were much more likely to venerate Gene Vincent, and Hendrix was about four years in the future. The label is best kept for the original, while acknowledging its later reincarnations....dave souza, talk 08:10, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the subject is still highly problematic, largely within the very conventions of wikipedia- "british rock and roll", i.e. the british invasion and so forth (which is a rather poor organization for an article itself, as it discusses many highly varied genres}redirects to "british rock", clouding the issue further. the article(s) make it seem as if rock and roll was some brief musical movement of relatively little importance, when those bands of the late fifties are today remembered  not as the leaders of a brief fad, but the originators of a musical legacy. imagine you had never heard of rock (and roll) in your life, would it make more sense to start with elvis and chuck berry, or the beatles and the rolling stones? i'm not asking for an entire merge of the articles, but perhaps this could be called "The first Wave of Rock and Roll" and a general "Rock and Roll" page for "Rock", with a bit more emphasis on what is called here "rock and roll". not to mention how many bands (motorhead, the ramones etc) have explicitly identified themselves as 'rock and roll'. it just makes a lot more sense in a lot of ways. hopefully, we can all reach some kind of consensus and make these articles a bit more logical. Joeyramoney 21:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  rock is an abbreviation of rock and roll 

message: i really want to hear some opinions on this. to me, this is a major error and makes absolutely no sense. this is not a different movement than rock music, heck, they're eveb lumped together in the infobox. it would make sense to acknowledge the first generation of rock and roll as a section on one page for both styles, but this is ridiculous. as per "It later evolved into the various sub-genres of what is now called simply 'rock'", there is not enough recognition to justify rock and roll as a specific genre. this seems to be merely a creation of wikipedia. Joeyramoney 02:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: once again,

message: Dallas is leading the new Post-Bands or Global music that protests rock and says it has become all it started out opposing; plus the new music promotes numerous other changes: no 3 guitars and drums, no electrical instruments, back to basics style, lyrics and melody count, and more. I am a major part of this so have posted here and wait for others to see present relevance if any. Musea
:that's called folk music. Joeyramoney 02:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rock and roll Protests 

message: Hi. Patrolling recent changes, I came across Buttrock. As you can see on the Talk: Buttrock it seems be a reasonably common term, but I know too little about the various sub-genre relationships to know what should be kept, merged, etc. Could some folks with subject matter expertise take a look? Thanks, --William Pietri 18:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Buttrock]] (and [[cock rock]]) 

message: This entire section may need to be either deleted or completely re-written, primarily because it is difficult to follow the argument due to unclear phrasing, and poor punctuation, spelling & grammar.
 For example: "Over the years, Rock and Roll has evolved into subgenres with different characteristics. Many of these characteristics have affected the believe of the genre's authenticity depending on portions of Rock and roll's timeframe of existance." 
This makes very little sense, as written. Is the author questioning the sub-genre's authenticity as a form of Rock and Roll, and if so, in what ways? Also, the use of the word "authenticity" itself is not clearly defined in relation to the connection between the sub-genre & Rock and Roll.
 --Bomber55 23:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Authenticity Section 

message: How did the phrase "Rock and Roll" come to be?  Though I don't particularly know it, there should be an added section about how the phrase came about.  It would be a good addition to the article.  Smileman66 16:32, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin of the Phrase

message: How come this article only covers Rock and Roll up to the 1960s?
-mmace91
----Because "Rock and Roll" (as distinguished from the more general "Rock") ended in the late 1950s with the combined effect of Elvis joining the army, Little Richard retiring to serve God, Chuck Berry getting arrested, Johnny Cashy turning total country, Jerry Lee Lewis marrying his child cousin, Carl Perkins/Bill Haley/Gene Vincent becoming angry bitter exiles, and THE BIG PLANE-CRASH. At the same time came the onset of the "teen-idol" craze, etc. Surf-Rock is it's own thing and whatever The Beatles resurrected (while certainly in the same vein) wasn't quite "rock'n'roll" by the old standard; so, we call it "Rock" and keep the original phrase for the originals.[[Atsab 09:21, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good explanation. Unfortunately lots of folks still use "R&R" when WE KNOW they should be saying "Rock". I think the article goes into this issue a bit. Sfahey 16:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More History 

message: Just as there is debate what the first rock'n'roll record is, there are A LOT of differing opinions on where "rock" originally came from - it's invention by black urban youth is NOT the only theory. For instance, Elvis' first recordings sound literally like nothing else, a NEW sound - is that new sound rock'n'roll? What about Bill Haley's early contributions, or the truly "rocking" sounds of Hank Williams' late-'40s recordings? The african-american "Jump" style (aka "R&B") that became rock was, even in the '50s, hardly different then low-level big-band from the '30s. Therefore, is Count Basie or Benny Goodman early examples of "rock and roll"? NO! I'm not saying that black people should get no credit, I'm just saying that the music form was also HEAVILY reliant on white country and folk music, so classifying it as a subgenre of Afrian-American music is erroneous. Even if you disagree with me, the fact that there's so much room for debate proves that a statement like that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. It's not objective; you think black people started rock, I don't, so at best we can say "some people think" and "many scholars contend that" rather than stating subjective conjecture as fact. I made changes along these lines but within an hour someone changed it back exactly how it was before. This is the kind of absurdly racially-concious revisionism that creates the "US vs THEM" mentality that we are striving to move away from. Think about it: even BLUES isn't entirely a black thing - it's AMERICAN, that's what counts. For anyone who needs me to elaborate, blues came from (post-slavery) poor black Americans blending their muddled African heritage with traditional white instruments and dance steps, as well as European-American melodies and musical qualities. Therefore, BLUES comes from Black + White. JAZZ (old fashioned marching band music introduced by the French in the 19th century) comes from Black + White. And (it follows, like I said) ROCK comes from Black + White. It's obvious you can't put all the credit in one place, so spread it all over! Part of RnR's amazing cultural value is that it was never unique to one race or ANY single cultural group, but that ALL forms of popular music (country/doowop/folk/blues/jazz/pop) rapidly gravitated towards the same thing: ROCK&ROLL! African-American, European-American, it all happened at the same time and it's all the same thing! Atsab [[Atsab 09:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll agree with that 100%.  That was what was so great about it.  Maybe you had to be there, but this was the first time that black and white music had mixed so that no one (Who was into the music) even noticed what colour the performer was.  I was only a kid, but I'd say the fact that I was into people like Jerry Lee Lewis and Little Richard simply because they both kicked s#!t out of the piano had a lot to do with the fact that when I finally came across racism years later it seemed completely idiotic to me. --Deke42 13:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  why "African-American?" how about just "American"

message: Jerry Lee Lewis was once the subject of an article In the Rolling Stone. It was in the 1970'S methinks.
If anybody remembers the year and month of such an article please post it. Utah Smith 08:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old Stone Issue 

message: Are we allowed to add a image to this just wondering.(Sparrowman980 08:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: I deleted the British Rock n Roll section since there is no need for it, especially since there is a separate article in wiki under "British Rock n Roll". Wiki writers (who, apparently, are a large percentage British, based on the articles in wiki) are already giving Britain far too much credit for American innovations.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guidosdad (talk • contribs) 02:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  British Rock n Roll section deleted 

message: The extended discussion of "Rock around the Clock" shouldn't be in the rockabilly section.  The Comets were not a rockabilly act, and that particular track was released as a "novelty foxtrot".  74.64.105.235 (talk) 23:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bill Haley not Rockabilly