Talk:Charles Manson/Archive 1

message: Manson having raped another boy in reform school does not necessarily make him gay or bisexual, and the apparent lack of any other evidence to suggest that he was would seem to disqualify him from the "LGBT criminals" category.
Treybien 15:44 27 October 2006 (UTC).
Well it sure as hell doesn't make him straight.  What the hell other sort of qualification are you looking for?  It doesn't get any more extreme than that.  192.249.47.11 18:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  LGBT issue 

message: The article contains an explanation of his (middle) name change from Milles to Willis interpreted as "Charles Will Is Man's Son."  Could this perhaps simply be a connection to the mother of his firstborn (Rosalie Willis)?  What was his original intention?  I notice the explanation is not sited so perhaps this is an area in need of attention.Gabenowicki 01:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whatchu talkin' bout Willis? 

message: Does anybody know the Guns 'N Roses song that was supposedly written by Manson?  I'm a big fan of GnR and i would really like to know which song is this.
The song is called "Look at Your Game, Girl" from "The Spaghetti Incident?" and it was on Manson's Lies.--Grain king 01:45, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guns 'N Roses 

message: :(copy, written after complaint at village pump)
I checked the link because I have become somewhat suspicious of what some people consider shocking. I agree with removing the link (note that two days ago, someone already removed the very same link from the external links section of the same article). The picture seems to be on the external site merely to offend people, and I don't see a need to support that by linking to the page. Also, the text on that site is very confused but indicates that the original Manson support page is gone. I went ahead and removed the link. Rl 17:23, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  atwa.info 

message: * Charles Milles Manson (born 12 November 1934) was the leader of a group of young followers of both sexes, known collectively as "The Family", in the late 1960s and early 1970s.
"Followers of both sexes" is ambiguous - it could be saying that Manson was the leader of a group of young hermaphrodites. I doubt this is the intended meaning (but anything's possible with Manson). I think it means the members of the group included both males and females.  But what's the reason for stating this?  Any group of people would include both sexes unless specified otherwise.  So I'd remove "of both sexes" as unnecessarily specific, particularly so early in the article.  But that leaves us with "Manson was the leader of a group of young followers ...".  Well, obviously, any leader is a leader of followers.  So remove "of young followers".  Now we have "Manson was the leader of a group known collectively as The Family". Still a problem.  "Collectively" is tautological in relation to group, since a group is by its very nature collective.  Remove "collectively".  Does anybody have a problem with:
* Charles Milles Manson (born 12 November 1934) was the leader of a group known as "The Family", in the late 1960s and early 1970s.?
It doesn't tell you anything about what the group was all about, but neither did the previous version.  I think it works better as an introductory sentence to a long article about a guy who's very hard to label, and where all the details are spelled out.  And it's shorter and more to the point.  JackofOz 01:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with Opening Sentence 

message: The birthdate is given as November 14, but should be November 12.  See http://www.charliemanson.com/timeline-1800-1959.htm
Epicidiot 06:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth date 

message: I'd like to see either an entire page or a section dedicated to the manson girls, esp. Squeaky, Patricia, Leslie, and the other gal who was in on the LaBianca murders. They have very interesting stories! GingerGin 01:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean a combined article for Lynette Fromme, Patricia Krenwinkel, and Leslie Van Houten? Pomte 04:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manson Girls 

message: I think we need a pic of him at the trials... Kritish5951 03:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another picture? 

message: I've removed the following as they are unsourced and mostly non-notable. Jimbo Wales didn't mean for Wikipedia to be a giant collection of Family Guy trivia. 
===Pop culture references and parodies===
* Marilyn Manson derived his stage name from the names of Marilyn Monroe and Charles Manson.
* Death Rap artist Necro utilizes the image and voice of Charles Manson quite frequently in his work. He is also known to reference the Tate-La Bianca murders on many of his songs. Most notably, the album The Pre-Fix For Death features an intro by Manson himself, whose presence is maintained throughout the whole of the album.
* The Tate-La Bianca Murders have been dramatized in movies several times, most notably in 1976's Helter Skelter, starring Steve Railsback as Manson, and its 2004 TV movie remake, which starred Jeremy Davies as Manson, Bruno Kirby as Bugliosi, and Clea DuVall as Kasabian.
* Evangelist and comedian Mike Warnke claimed in his book The Satan Seller to have met Manson at a Satanic rally in 1966, before Warnke's conversion to Christianity. This was impossible (Manson was incarcerated at the time), and Warnke was later exposed as committing numerous such hoaxes in his career.
* Manson appeared as a cartoon character in a South Park episode, "Merry Christmas, Charlie Manson!", in which Manson returns to jail willingly after seeing several Christmas specials. He is also the only character in the episode to show concern over the death of Kenny.
*Manson is often referred to in rap music as well, most notably by Ice Cube in the title track of the N.W.A. album Straight Outta Compton ("Here's a murder rap to keep you dancin'/With a crime record like Charles Manson.") Also he is mentioned in another Ice Cube song with Dr. Dre in Natural Born Killaz ("So fuck Charlie Manson, I'll snatch him out of his truck, Hit 'em with a brick then I'm dancin'") and the long-rumored Ice Cube/Dr. Dre collaborative effort was supposed to be titled Helter Skelter. 
* In the early nineties, The Ben Stiller Show filmed a mock episode of Lassie entitled "Manson," in which Charles Manson is portrayed as the family dog, and goes on to save Timmy from a snake bite down at the creek.
*Also on The Ben Stiller Show, Manson was portrayed by comedian Bob Odenkirk.
* American Death Metal Band Deicide, wrote the song "Lunatic of God's Creation" about the Charles Manson Murders.
* Although the names were changed a movie about the Manson Murders was made called Live Freaky, Die Freaky. Billie Joe Armstrong of Green Day played Charles Manson. Other punk rock icons were also parts in the movie as well.
* In the episode "Tech Support" of the online cartoon Neurotically Yours, the character Foamy the Squirrel refers to his computer being "...as unstable as Charles Manson."
* Family Guy briefly show him in a cutaway watching T.V. in jail
* At the beginning of the U2 cover of Helter Skelter on the Rattle and Hum album, Bono says "This is a song Charles Manson stole from The Beatles. We're stealing it back."
* In the movie Natural Born Killers, Manson is referred to as 'the king' by the serial killer character Mickey Knox.
* The 3tards have a picture of Charles Manson in their logo with the words "Call me crazy but I love the 3tards" written under it.
* For his 1974 album On the Beach, Neil Young wrote Revolution Blues through the eyes of a character inspired by Manson, whom Young had met in his Topanga Canyon days.
* At the end of Thank You for Smoking, character Nick Naylor states, "Michael Jordan plays ball. Charles Manson kills people. I talk."
* In the cartoon show, Futurama, when Bender gets bit by a were-car and they find out who made the original were-car, it was said that they took a part of Charles Manson's hippie van.
*In the movie Liar, Liar, Jim Carey insists that the Judge's decision regarding custody of the children is a mistake and yells at him by saying "...Well maybe you can explain that to [the children] when they're adopted by the Manson Family!"
*In mexican [lucha libre] promotion [Asistencia Asesoria y Administraciòn] the luchador Jim Kata got over huge with the new gimmick Charly Manson, partly related to the killer.
*In the Comedy show In Living Color, Jim Carrey plays the role of Manson in a parody skit.
*In Suicide Circle, Genesis calls himself the "Charles Manson of the information age!"
*In the NWA song Straight Outta Compton a line goes "Here's a murder rap to keep yo dancin
with a crime record like Charles Manson."
===TV===
*Family Guy Manson appears in "Brian does Hollywood"  Peter runs into a log cabin where Charles Manson and other friends are sitting in a circle. Peter then says "Guys, I've been invited to a party at Sharon Tate's house. Now, you can come if you promise not to embarrass me."
*Family Guy Manson appears in jail watching television reruns and quips, "If I haven't seen it, it's new to me."
*South Park Manson appears in "Merry Christmas, Charlie Manson!" multiple times throughout the episode.
*Son of the Beach A convict in prison goes by the name of Adolf Manson. They combined Adolf Hitler and Charles Manson's first and last names respectively.
--Wasted Sapience 19:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed 

message: *Family Guy Manson appears in "Brian does Hollywood"  Peter runs into a log cabin where Charles Manson and other friends are sitting in a circle. Peter then says "Guys, I've been invited to a party at Sharon Tate's house. Now, you can come if you promise not to embarrass me."
*Family Guy Manson appears in jail watching television reruns and quips, "If I haven't seen it, it's new to me."
*South Park Manson appears in "Merry Christmas, Charlie Manson!" multiple times throughout the episode.
*Son of the Beach A convict in prison goes by the name of Adolf Manson. They combined Adolf Hitler and Charles Manson's first and last names respectively.
--Wasted Sapience 19:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: TV

message: ===Covers and tributes===
*The metal band Dio referenced 'Helter Skelter' in their song "One Foot in the Grave" from their early 90s "Strange Highways" album.
*Necro's "Do the Charles Manson".
* Cleveland, Ohio-based alternative metal band Mushroomhead references Manson in the song "Bwomp" off of their sophomore album "Superbuick". They say throughout the song, "If it was up to me, I'd free Charles Manson".
* The aptly named Italian record label Helter Skelter Records released the compilation Comin' Down Fast! : a gathering of garbage, lies and reflections on Charles Manson on CD and 10" vinyl in 1993, with contributions by David Peel & The Lower East Side, Motorpsycho, Starfuckers, Eugene Chadbourne, Jesus Fuck & Da Murderers, Controlled Bleeding, Skullflower and others.
* Sonic Boom and Frank Kozik issued a 7" single on Sympathy for the Record Industry in 1994, featuring two different versions of Manson's song "Mechanical Man", one side with vocals by Kozic, the other side with vocals by Sonic, who also plays all instruments on both sides. 
* The compilation cassette Watching Satan : the legacy of Charles Manson : a 90 minute slice of modern folklore, released by Hypertonia World Enterprises, included covers and tributes by Seedjoy, Charles Rice Goff III, Abrahadabra, Sinister Attraction, Hope Organ, Anton Balsam, Squidbelly Phlegmfoot & The Plug Uglies, Neither/Neither World, ZBZ, The A.A. Experience, The Bill Jones Show, Plastic Eye Miracle, Geoff X. Alexander, GG Allin, Las Animas, The Arnold Incorporated, Dr. Maya, Anus Presley, David Barnes, Lord Litter and The Apostles.
* The band Alkaline Trio, released a song on their album Crimson called "Sadie" about Susan Atkins, a murderer in the Charles Manson family who took part in the Sharon Tate murders in 1969.
* In 1976, Throbbing Gristle made a film entitled "After Cease To Exist", inspired by a Manson song title
* In 1982, Boston hardcore punk band Negative FX featured a picture of Charles Manson, with their logo digitally "carved" into his head, on their self-titled LP. It also featured pictures of Manson family members on the back. 
* Since 2003, a Orange county NY based Noise-punk band known as "Sparrows with Machine-guns" has done a cover of "Home is Where You're Happy" at live gigs only. They plan to record the cover for a 2007 full length album.
* Sonic Youth, in cooperation with director Richard Kern, produced a video clip for their song "Death Valley '69," in which some of the band members acted out gory scenes reminiscent of the Tate/LaBianca murders. 
* In 2002, Dilute did a cover version of "Home is Where You're Happy" on If The Twenty-First Century Didn't Exist It Would Be Necessary To Invent It CD (5 Rue Christine )
* Neo-psychedelica band The Brian Jonestown Massacre references the life of Manson in their songs "Arkansas Revisited" and "The Ballad of Jim Jones".
* UK underground electronic music pioneers, Cabaret Voltaire, used Manson's voice from various radio interviews, which they used in their tracks "Hell's Home", "Kickback" and "Golden Halos" featured on their album "The Covenant, The Sword And The Arm Of The Lord" released in 1985. 
* System of a Down wrote the song "ATWA" on their Toxicity album about the media's viewpoints on Manson. (ATWA is an acronym used by Manson, meaning both "Air-Trees-Water-Animals" and "all the way alive.").
* Ozzy Osbourne recorded "Bloodbath in Paradise" on his No Rest for the Wicked album about the California murders.
* The music video for "Gave Up" by Nine Inch Nails was shot entirely at 10050 Cielo Drive in the summer of 1993 when their lead singer, Trent Reznor, had leased the property in Benedict Canyon from Rudi Altobelli. In the video, the song was performed in the living room of the main house, with the exterior of the house and grounds shown at the beginning and the end. Among the performers was a young Marilyn Manson, who gave Reznor the idea, and who also shot a video at Cielo. Reznor claimed to have no knowledge of the slaughter that took place at the house before moving in, and coincidentally he dubbed the studio "Le Pig", and recorded the album The Downward Spiral there, on which two of the tracks were named "Piggy" and "March of the Pigs".
* In 1969, months prior to the Tate-LaBianca murders, The Beach Boys covered "Cease to Exist", retitling it "Never Learn Not to Love" and releasing it on the album 20/20 (with sole songwriting credit given to Dennis Wilson). 
* John Moran and Iggy Pop collaborated on The Manson Family: An Opera, which was produced by Philip Glass.
* Crispin Glover performs a cover of "Always is Always Forever" on his album "The Big Problem"
* Devendra Banhart covers "Home Is Where You're Happy" as a part of a medley with Lauryn Hill's Doo Wop (That Thing). He performed it at Bonnaroo and the Pitchfork Music Festival in 2006.
* Guns N' Roses covered the Manson song "Look At Your Game Girl" on their album "The Spaghetti Incident?". The song does not appear on the track listings of the CD; it is a "secret song" that plays at the end of the last track. At the end of the song Axl thanks Manson, stating "thanks Chaz".
* Skinny Puppy have used samples of Manson speaking and singing The Beatles' "Helter Skelter" (as well as samples of the actual song) in their song, "Worlock," from 1989's Rabies. Samples of Manson speaking can also be heard on "Convulsion," from 1990's Too Dark Park Members of Skinny Puppy (as Download) also recorded a soundtrack for the Jim Van Bebber film Charlie's Family (a.k.a. The Manson Family).
* Hip Hop duo 'Heltah Skeltah', a break off from The Boot Camp Clik - share the same name as the infamous 'Manson Family' murder signature.
* The British band Kasabian takes its name from Linda Kasabian, getaway driver and member of the Manson Family.
* Argentine rock band Babasónicos have a song titled "Sharon Tate", after the actress murdered by Charles Manson and his followers, in their 1999 album Miami.
* Neil Young's 1974 album On the Beach included a song Young had written from Manson's point of view titled "Revolution Blues".  Young had met Manson while living in Topanga Canyon.
* American skinhead band People Haters recorded a song "Charlie Manson´s eyes" for their 1995 released debut cd "A collection of hate".
* The Acacia Strain sample Manson saying "Believe me, if I started murdering people, there'd be none of you left" in their song Passing the Pencil Test off of the album 3750
* Negativland's 1989 album Helter Stupid sampled interviews with Manson during the title cut.
* Gothic metal band Paradise Lost inlcuded a sample of Manson's voice from the British television commentary in "Forever Failure", a track from the album Draconian Times.
* Pantera, An American heavy metal band, makes a reference to Manson by including his quote, "No sense makes sense" in the lyrics to the song "Uplift".  
* Superjoint Ritual, A heavy metal band led by Pantera's Phil Anselmo, mentions Charles Manson in their song "Dress Like A Target" stating "we're not hippies, we're slippys. Like the Manson Family". Their song "Creepy Crawl" is entirely about Manson, and the title of the song refers to Charlie's petname for breaking-and-entering.
* Dragonland's song "Calling my Name" off of their 2004 album Starfall contains several clips of Manson, including the line "Believe me, if I started murdering people, there'd be none of you left".
--Wasted Sapience 19:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: These are very important facts about Manson, and they should not be removed without consensus. WooyiTalk, Editor review 20:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been looking for "important facts" in all of this for some time, and I don't see any. It's trivia and pop culture references like this which are keeping Wikipedia from being taken seriously. We should all hope that one day the official policy will be to bar non-notable pop culture nonsense from articles. As to how a mention in a song is any more notable than a mention in a newscast, well, that's beyond me. Also, I don't see any sources anywhere in this huge list. 
The fact of the matter is that this article was very long and by removing this cruft it is now much shorter and easier to work with. We can now start referencing the notable material about Charles Manson. --Wasted Sapience 20:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: In your own words - I've removed the following as they are unsourced and mostly non-notable. Jimbo Wales didn't mean for Wikipedia to be a giant collection of Family Guy trivia. Then you go and contribute to that very problem by creating an article called Charles Manson in popular culture which contains all that "unsourced and mostly non-notable" trivia. Great, just what Wikipedia needs - another "in popular culture" article. Better here than there, eh? 172.189.45.54 20:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a graduate student in art and we quite frequently study the popular culture.  The academic term "visual culture" is typically applied to such study.  I find that your accusations that including references in the visual culture to important events in wikipedia would somehow make it less serious to be uninformed, and a growing number of very serious academic students and educators would agree with me.  And in any case if you are not interested in studying the visual culture you have the option of not clicking on the link to "Manson in popular culture".Rglong 19:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed still more pop culture references 

message: *The metal band Dio referenced 'Helter Skelter' in their song "One Foot in the Grave" from their early 90s "Strange Highways" album.
*Necro's "Do the Charles Manson".
* Cleveland, Ohio-based alternative metal band Mushroomhead references Manson in the song "Bwomp" off of their sophomore album "Superbuick". They say throughout the song, "If it was up to me, I'd free Charles Manson".
* The aptly named Italian record label Helter Skelter Records released the compilation Comin' Down Fast! : a gathering of garbage, lies and reflections on Charles Manson on CD and 10" vinyl in 1993, with contributions by David Peel & The Lower East Side, Motorpsycho, Starfuckers, Eugene Chadbourne, Jesus Fuck & Da Murderers, Controlled Bleeding, Skullflower and others.
* Sonic Boom and Frank Kozik issued a 7" single on Sympathy for the Record Industry in 1994, featuring two different versions of Manson's song "Mechanical Man", one side with vocals by Kozic, the other side with vocals by Sonic, who also plays all instruments on both sides. 
* The compilation cassette Watching Satan : the legacy of Charles Manson : a 90 minute slice of modern folklore, released by Hypertonia World Enterprises, included covers and tributes by Seedjoy, Charles Rice Goff III, Abrahadabra, Sinister Attraction, Hope Organ, Anton Balsam, Squidbelly Phlegmfoot & The Plug Uglies, Neither/Neither World, ZBZ, The A.A. Experience, The Bill Jones Show, Plastic Eye Miracle, Geoff X. Alexander, GG Allin, Las Animas, The Arnold Incorporated, Dr. Maya, Anus Presley, David Barnes, Lord Litter and The Apostles.
* The band Alkaline Trio, released a song on their album Crimson called "Sadie" about Susan Atkins, a murderer in the Charles Manson family who took part in the Sharon Tate murders in 1969.
* In 1976, Throbbing Gristle made a film entitled "After Cease To Exist", inspired by a Manson song title
* In 1982, Boston hardcore punk band Negative FX featured a picture of Charles Manson, with their logo digitally "carved" into his head, on their self-titled LP. It also featured pictures of Manson family members on the back. 
* Since 2003, a Orange county NY based Noise-punk band known as "Sparrows with Machine-guns" has done a cover of "Home is Where You're Happy" at live gigs only. They plan to record the cover for a 2007 full length album.
* Sonic Youth, in cooperation with director Richard Kern, produced a video clip for their song "Death Valley '69," in which some of the band members acted out gory scenes reminiscent of the Tate/LaBianca murders. 
* In 2002, Dilute did a cover version of "Home is Where You're Happy" on If The Twenty-First Century Didn't Exist It Would Be Necessary To Invent It CD (5 Rue Christine )
* Neo-psychedelica band The Brian Jonestown Massacre references the life of Manson in their songs "Arkansas Revisited" and "The Ballad of Jim Jones".
* UK underground electronic music pioneers, Cabaret Voltaire, used Manson's voice from various radio interviews, which they used in their tracks "Hell's Home", "Kickback" and "Golden Halos" featured on their album "The Covenant, The Sword And The Arm Of The Lord" released in 1985. 
* System of a Down wrote the song "ATWA" on their Toxicity album about the media's viewpoints on Manson. (ATWA is an acronym used by Manson, meaning both "Air-Trees-Water-Animals" and "all the way alive.").
* Ozzy Osbourne recorded "Bloodbath in Paradise" on his No Rest for the Wicked album about the California murders.
* The music video for "Gave Up" by Nine Inch Nails was shot entirely at 10050 Cielo Drive in the summer of 1993 when their lead singer, Trent Reznor, had leased the property in Benedict Canyon from Rudi Altobelli. In the video, the song was performed in the living room of the main house, with the exterior of the house and grounds shown at the beginning and the end. Among the performers was a young Marilyn Manson, who gave Reznor the idea, and who also shot a video at Cielo. Reznor claimed to have no knowledge of the slaughter that took place at the house before moving in, and coincidentally he dubbed the studio "Le Pig", and recorded the album The Downward Spiral there, on which two of the tracks were named "Piggy" and "March of the Pigs".
* In 1969, months prior to the Tate-LaBianca murders, The Beach Boys covered "Cease to Exist", retitling it "Never Learn Not to Love" and releasing it on the album 20/20 (with sole songwriting credit given to Dennis Wilson). 
* John Moran and Iggy Pop collaborated on The Manson Family: An Opera, which was produced by Philip Glass.
* Crispin Glover performs a cover of "Always is Always Forever" on his album "The Big Problem"
* Devendra Banhart covers "Home Is Where You're Happy" as a part of a medley with Lauryn Hill's Doo Wop (That Thing). He performed it at Bonnaroo and the Pitchfork Music Festival in 2006.
* Guns N' Roses covered the Manson song "Look At Your Game Girl" on their album "The Spaghetti Incident?". The song does not appear on the track listings of the CD; it is a "secret song" that plays at the end of the last track. At the end of the song Axl thanks Manson, stating "thanks Chaz".
* Skinny Puppy have used samples of Manson speaking and singing The Beatles' "Helter Skelter" (as well as samples of the actual song) in their song, "Worlock," from 1989's Rabies. Samples of Manson speaking can also be heard on "Convulsion," from 1990's Too Dark Park Members of Skinny Puppy (as Download) also recorded a soundtrack for the Jim Van Bebber film Charlie's Family (a.k.a. The Manson Family).
* Hip Hop duo 'Heltah Skeltah', a break off from The Boot Camp Clik - share the same name as the infamous 'Manson Family' murder signature.
* The British band Kasabian takes its name from Linda Kasabian, getaway driver and member of the Manson Family.
* Argentine rock band Babasónicos have a song titled "Sharon Tate", after the actress murdered by Charles Manson and his followers, in their 1999 album Miami.
* Neil Young's 1974 album On the Beach included a song Young had written from Manson's point of view titled "Revolution Blues".  Young had met Manson while living in Topanga Canyon.
* American skinhead band People Haters recorded a song "Charlie Manson´s eyes" for their 1995 released debut cd "A collection of hate".
* The Acacia Strain sample Manson saying "Believe me, if I started murdering people, there'd be none of you left" in their song Passing the Pencil Test off of the album 3750
* Negativland's 1989 album Helter Stupid sampled interviews with Manson during the title cut.
* Gothic metal band Paradise Lost inlcuded a sample of Manson's voice from the British television commentary in "Forever Failure", a track from the album Draconian Times.
* Pantera, An American heavy metal band, makes a reference to Manson by including his quote, "No sense makes sense" in the lyrics to the song "Uplift".  
* Superjoint Ritual, A heavy metal band led by Pantera's Phil Anselmo, mentions Charles Manson in their song "Dress Like A Target" stating "we're not hippies, we're slippys. Like the Manson Family". Their song "Creepy Crawl" is entirely about Manson, and the title of the song refers to Charlie's petname for breaking-and-entering.
* Dragonland's song "Calling my Name" off of their 2004 album Starfall contains several clips of Manson, including the line "Believe me, if I started murdering people, there'd be none of you left".
--Wasted Sapience 19:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: These are very important facts about Manson, and they should not be removed without consensus. WooyiTalk, Editor review 20:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been looking for "important facts" in all of this for some time, and I don't see any. It's trivia and pop culture references like this which are keeping Wikipedia from being taken seriously. We should all hope that one day the official policy will be to bar non-notable pop culture nonsense from articles. As to how a mention in a song is any more notable than a mention in a newscast, well, that's beyond me. Also, I don't see any sources anywhere in this huge list. 
The fact of the matter is that this article was very long and by removing this cruft it is now much shorter and easier to work with. We can now start referencing the notable material about Charles Manson. --Wasted Sapience 20:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: In your own words - I've removed the following as they are unsourced and mostly non-notable. Jimbo Wales didn't mean for Wikipedia to be a giant collection of Family Guy trivia. Then you go and contribute to that very problem by creating an article called Charles Manson in popular culture which contains all that "unsourced and mostly non-notable" trivia. Great, just what Wikipedia needs - another "in popular culture" article. Better here than there, eh? 172.189.45.54 20:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a graduate student in art and we quite frequently study the popular culture.  The academic term "visual culture" is typically applied to such study.  I find that your accusations that including references in the visual culture to important events in wikipedia would somehow make it less serious to be uninformed, and a growing number of very serious academic students and educators would agree with me.  And in any case if you are not interested in studying the visual culture you have the option of not clicking on the link to "Manson in popular culture".Rglong 19:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Covers and tributes

message: The mugshot was deleted on commons because it is unfree. But there is no free image available, so we need to get a fair-use mug shot uploaded. WooyiTalk, Editor review 23:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture needed 

message: If "occupation" be taken to mean the role in which he supported himself, Manson was not a musician.  "Career criminal" seems awkward.  For a while, the phrase "no gainful employment" appeared in the Occupation slot; I entered that.  It still seems to me the apt entry.JohnBonaccorsi 23:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Occupation 

message: Any idea when in 2007 he will be up for Parole?  I haven't been able to find anything and thought for sure this page would have that information.  I thought it would be in the news too. BUMM
It will be a minor news item. He will appear, the board will say no and that will be that. George415
I hope he will be denied parole and will share the same cell with Mark Chapman till kingdom come. And what's with this overly kind tone of the article anyway? Esp the letters from fans part makes me throw up... so much adulation for a sick demented asshole… 81.96.126.218 22:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Parole 

message: The article just says that he was, and that he was then released, and then involved in the murders.Seriously, he was an evil, evil man, and anyone disagreeing will delete this. Dont be the one to delete it, because then you may reveal yourself to be the type of person who believes Charles Manson was a good person. Thank-you. Why was he in prison in the first place? It sort of looks like he was in prison for the murders, before they were comitted. Needs explanation by someone who knows something about this (I'd never heard of Manson. Not related to Marilyn Manson, is he?). CGS 22:52 26 Jul 2003 (UTC).
:He's related to Marilyn Manson in name only. Marilyn Manson constructed his name based on Manson's (and Marilyn Monroe's). —Frecklefoot 19:32, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Manson was in jail before the murders for things along the lines of theft and arson.  You can find good information on his life at http://www.crimelibrary.com
OgniemIMieczem - 8:40 AM January 25, 2005.  Don't give him the stick.First, Charlie Manson was accused of being able to control other people’s minds, psychically “to kill”. Although the prosecutor never established the fact that he or any one else was even capable of doing such an incredulous act. 
Second, The main witnesses were his co-defendants (Susan Atkins and Squeaky Fromm,) who were obviously delusional, since they admitted, “hearing voices" that believe were Charlie Manson.  And the court accepted this as evidence even though,  According to the 1965 Federal Court Ruling People vs./ Arranda, states “You can not enter into evidence any statement made by one co-defendant against another…” Therefore, their (Susan Atkins and Squeaky Fromm,) statements would be considered inadmissible as evidence against Charlie Manson. Ronnie Howard’s testimony would be considered a confession from Susan Atkins and Squeaky Fromm, but hearsay against Charlie Manson. 
Third, Charlie Manson never killed anyone himself. And he wasn't even at the crime scene. Those women weren’t forced or co-ursed. Therefore he should have been charged with “accessory,” at the most.  His sentence would then be 5 years in California State Prison. 
Fourth, The gun that the prosecutor submitted as evidence was a 45 caliber. The gun used at the crime site was a 38 caliber??
Fifth, The Judge should  have ruled the case an acquittal. For this type of serious felony should be a unanimous vote from the jury not majority.
Sixth
Sharon Tate & Roman Polanski’s daughter lived. Her name is Leslie Laffy & she lives in Grass Valley California. She was born January 28th 1970. She was born 4 months after her mother was allegedly murdered. Therefore if Leslie is alive so is Sharon Tate. How many lies has our Government told us? 
It’s been more than 37 years since Charlie has been convicted. This year he’ll celebrate his 74? birthday. I think it’s time to set this innocent man free. Please consider initiating a further investigation.
For the sake of Liberty and Justice for all.
*"Dont be the one to delete it, because then you may reveal yourself to be the type of person who believes Charles Manson was a good person." Oh. My. Goodness. Sure thing, okay, whatever you say, Manson was an "evil man". Come to think of it; how is that defined? I'm referring to the concept "evil", of course. The civilized world has waited for that exposé for .. what? .. some three and half thousand years by now. Miles upon miles upon miles of bookshelves in our public libraries are good enough testimony to the elusiveness of that concept, I think. But you're partly right, of course; stating that Manson (or anyone else, for that matter) is an "evil man" has absolutely no place in an encyclopedia whatsoever. In fact, no judgement calls in whatever shape or form have any place at all in this Wiki. Thank you for your understanding. (By the by, I don't believe Manson was an "evil man", just as little as I'd believe Hitler was an "evil man". I won't delete your assertion, either. This is a "Talk" page, anyways.) --Tirolion 12:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why was Manson in jail for most of his adult life? 

message: Under 'The Killings' the article states that a man (film director Roman Polanski) was eight months pregnant at the time of Sharon Tate's murder. Perhaps someone could edit the entry to correect this impossibility. --- Desertphile
:done - Rossrs 22:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the clarification. Maybe I should say this again... I fixed this..... in September.  So who are you doing the report on?  Polanski?  Manson?  Rossrs 07:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roman Polanski Pregnant? 

message: Repeating a simplified, shortened version of Bugliosi's book
_Helter Skelter_ is hardly neutral in POV; Bugliosi, remember
was the prosecutor, and his case was based almost completely
on the State's evidence testimony of drug-addled Susan Atkins.
("State's evidence", for non-Americans, is the term used here
for someone testifying against an alleged accomplice to get a
lighter sentence, like if you and I were charged with robbing
a store, and I made a deal to help the prosecutor by saying 
you held the gun  -- so you should be punished worse than me.)
I'm not saying Charlie Manson was a saint, or innocent, or a
misunderstood kid who never got enough hugs, only that this
article as written is not neutral.
David <the@iglou.com>
:Feel free to be bold and update it to make the text more neutral! Tuf-Kat 04:23, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)
MANSON REALITY:
For those interested in Manson, I suggest you read "Manson in His Own Words," by Nuel Emmons, a guy Manson did time with.  I hardly attest that it is 100% reliable, but it offers an alternative view of things from "Helter Skelter."  Helter Skelter was pretty much an invention of Bugliosi's, because he needed a motive to aid in prosecuting Manson---the jury had to believe Manson had a reason for ordering the killings.  Don't get me wrong, Manson was almost certainly guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, and accessory before and after the fact, and number of other things, but that doesn't mean he necessarily got a fair trial.  He'll die in prison, one way or another---there's been far too much publicity for him to ever be released.  Much of what you hear about Manson & the Family is crap, but then again, much of what comes out of Manson's mouth is crap, too:  jailhouse gibberish.  He was older than the kids at the ranch, he took advantage of them, and since most of them had the brains of hamsters and were stoned on top of it, he went on a little ego trip to see how far he could get them to go.  It's a prison mentality, a power thing.  The 60s were conducive to radical ways of thinking.  While Manson wasn't a hippie, the kids he surrounded himself with and manipulated were.  He said once in an interview with Geraldo, "I'm Jesus Christ, whether you want to accept it or not, I don't care."  He has also denied ever saying this.  Listen to an interview with Manson sometime, and it's obvious he wants to maintain his image as mystical guru, but it's also just as clear he's a pathetic little criminal and little more.  How's that for neutral?  -me
I like the guy. He must've been pretty damn smart, which no-one ever seems to credit him for. How's THAT for neutral? - Not me.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.81.136.71 (talk) 15:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "[A]ware of the flat intellect of most mass killers, the extremists admire and are impressed with Manson's unquestioned intelligence, the offbeat and sometimes searing nature of his insights, his enigmatic answers and allusions, and a mental deftness that allows him to speak in riddles, always with an underlying message." -- Bugliosi and Gentry, Helter Skelter:  The True Story of the Manson Murders  25th Anniversary Edition, W.W. Norton & Company, 1994.  Page 496.  .JohnBonaccorsi 23:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where's the Neutrality? 

message: The link at the bottom goes to the page saying that Charles Manson claimed to be Jesus Christ, but on Manson's own page, it doesn't mention it. I'm confused as to how this Jesus Christ thing comes into it.
Well, I can't find the quote, but at some point in his life, he stated very strongly that he was anything but a hippie. And I think Parole is out of the question. No percent at all. --70.18.172.198 23:45, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: These beliefs are actually not "common" Christian belief. I think they are beliefs espoused by some Christian sects, but Christians more commonly believe that Christ is a separate being that inspires or spiritually inhabits Christians. Mainstream Christianity, in fact, holds it somewhat heretical when humans claim the perfection of deity. Applejuicefool 16:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't know about Manson. 

message: Has Mitchell herself said that the line refers to Manson?
Here's the entire stanza:
Still I send up my prayer/Wondering where it had to go/With Heaven full of astronauts/And the Lord on Death Row
This is a reflection on the confusion of modern life.  "The Lord on Death Row" is probably a reference to the phrase "God Is dead".  This, of course, was a quote from Nietzsche, but Mitchell at the time was probably thinking more of the common usage of the phrase ever since it appeared on the cover of Time Magazine in 1966.
drone5 00:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joni Mitchell's "Same Situation" 

message: Maybe it is just me, since I am not a native speaker of English, but the wording of these few sentences seems extremely complex to me. In short, I don't understand what it's saying. I'd appreciate if any of you could clarify it for me, although I would be even more happy to see it changed in the article.
: This motive was substantially discredited during the penalty phase of the trial, where it became apparent that the "free Beausoleil" motive was contradicted by other testimony of the killers. Additionally, despite declaring they would die for Manson, the other accused claim to have waited until the main trial was over and the death penalty was being discussed, and then only on redirect, to introduce this as a motive. It was dismissed by the prosecution as an attempt to clear Manson by means of the other defendants taking the blame)
Thank you in advance --Mtu 21:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Learn English.
Oh, we will. Perchance you'd like to teach us, o compassionate one? O' most elevated sage, please spare some crumbs, some trinkets, mere baubles of knowledge from thine cornucopia of wisdom for us who yearn for the english glossa, that our parched tongues may be loosened and our thirst forever slaked. Thine autograph seemeth to be faulty, tho. --Tirolion 12:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Highly complicated wording 

message: I reverted an edit claiming rumours that he had intercourse with his male followers. At first glance, it appears to be vandalism and I was almost ready to hit the rollback button, but I did some research into Charles Manson in the past, and I seem to remember this as either fact or rumour, originating from his experiences in prison as a teenager. However, I'm still reverting this edit because it was provided without a citation. This edit, especially because it mentions it as a rumour, definitely needs a citation. --Deathphoenix 22:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intercourse with male followers? 

message: I removed material that has been repeatedly posted to a large number of serial-killer articles in the last couple of days. It's probably *closer* to on-topic here than on most of the articles where it was spammed, and if a non-anonymous user who's looked at it feels it deserves inclusion in the External Links section, feel free to do so. I'm just unwilling to trust the original editor's judgement on that point, and have better things to do than register for the site to find out whether it was relevant to one of the many articles where it was spammed. --Calair 03:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ghost tracker d already knows that the link is spam and not allowed. He's been spamming it to several articles for weeks now and needs to be stopped. If he does not I will look into getting him banned as a chronic spammer and the site added to the blackhole list the prevents any page from being saved if it includes that URL. Bad behavior like this will not be rewarded, so you may as well give up spamming it before you make it worse on yourself. DreamGuy 19:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Letters from Manson' 

message: Why doesn't someone just write to him and ask what his motives were?
:Believe it or not, that would be original research so we couldn't use it.  We have to wait for someone else to get the information and publish it somewhere reputable, then we can use it.  In your capacity as a private citizen, you could write to him and do the work of getting it published.  Then some other Wikipedian could see it and quote it here.  Funny, huh.  JackofOz 10:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Motive 

message: How is he related to Marilyn Manson? They're both creepy. Are they brothers?70.124.132.176 20:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They're not related.  Marilyn Manson and his bandmembers each took the first name of an iconic female and the last name of a serial killer/killer.  So Marilyn Monroe + Charles Manson = Marilyn Manson.  Other bandmembers were/are Ginger Fish (Ginger Rogers/Albert Fish), Madonna Wayne Gacy (Madonna/John Wayne Gacy) etc.  See the full list here. Rossrs 20:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marilyn Manson 

message: "In 1939, his mother and his uncle, Luther Maddox, were convicted of sexual assault. Luther served five years in Moundsville prison, dying there in 1949" makes no sense - 1949 is TEN years later than 1939, not five. DrHydeous 17:13, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncle's prison sentence 

message: I'm very concerned that there is a section for references and further reading at the bottom of the article but nothing connection individual assertions to those references.  Per Wikipedia policy on biographies of living persons, all biographical information about a living person must be referenced or removed.  Period.  This is quite a large article with an epic history, but that doesn't make it immune to Wikipedia policy. Ideas? Wyatt Riot 09:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improper Citations for a Biography of a Living Person 

message: I included the fact that he is only 5'5 in there for no other reason than it is an interesting fact when you consider how intimidating he is purported to be.Quadzilla99 13:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The 5'2 height is disputed by Manson family members, particularly Sandra Good. They claim that Bugliosi lied about the height in order to make Manson appear more unusual/freakish. Serpent-A 17:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The book has a booking picture with a the height measurement of 5'2" on a chart next to Manson. --PTR 21:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Height 

message: It seems odd that there is no discussion of the time period between his release from prison and the 1969 murders. How did he form the "family"? Uucp 22:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1967-1969 

message: It is established that his mother served time in West Virginia State Penitentiary in Moundsville, WV and lived in McMechen, WV outside Moundsville when Charlie was young. Also, the prison has a letter from Charlie Manson where he was attempting to be moved to the prison from CA after he was convicted. Here is the letter:
http://www.charliemanson.com/places/lb-moundsville.htm
and below is the text of the letter, spelling incorrect:
            Charles Manson
            B33920 -
            CMF Box 2000
            Vacaville, CA
            95696
Dear Sir.  I was razed in McMechen & Wheeling & worked at the race track under big Bill & Charlie Stoneman who put them big stones at the prison & on the road.  You may know some of my ken folks God knows they been enough of us in & out of your place.</P>
I'm a beenie(?) brother from way back.  Calif prison people had me in the hole for 14 years.  They done told a pack
of lies & built up so much fear that there is fear of what they made up to start.  Frist time I steeped in your (????????) 4 years (???) & Calif has a transfer tryp(?) with other states.  Would you accept me at your place.  I got 9 lifes & don't want out no more.  I'm a good worker & I give you my word I'll start no trouble.  I've been in prison hallways over 30 years & never lied to you & never rated. That should count for something some where.</P>
        Thank you
        Charles Manson
1.  Will you accept me.  If so I may git there on them old CCC roads that we built for you a while ago.</P>
I can't seem to git no mercy from Calif.</P> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.165.59.99 (talk) 18:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  McMechen, WV and West Virginia State Penitentiary 

message: In the episode of Family Guy "I Never Met the Dead Man" of the First Season a reference is made to him by Peter.
Peter "You know I hear that Manson guy watches TV all day"
Manson " If I Haven't seen it it's new to me"
This Should Be Added into the Parodies 124.178.115.217 10:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please integrate some of these parodies into a proper body of text before adding any more junk to that section. See WP:AVTRIVIA. —Centrx→talk • 12:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Family Guy 

message: Maybe it's just me but I feel as though there is considerable accent placed on the destitution/grotesquery of the mother. I don't know, I'd say more but I'm too tired to think. It's as though the article tries to make his mother look as bad as possible.
61.9.204.168 05:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why the Accent on his mother's Destitution 

message: It's been mentioned before, but "Manson_Family" redirects here. The article refers to it continuously, but gives very little information. Surely it deserves a separate article? Who was in it, when it was set up and so on. 212.108.17.165 13:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Family 

message: The article says only that his murder was related to money. However, more than a few sources on him also mention a bad drug deal as the primary source of argument. WiccaWeb 16:50, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gary Hinman 

message: This is an encyclopedia, not a historical essay. The level of detail is much too great in some sections, and can be summarized appropriately. FT2 (Talk | email) 20:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: -- Merope 20:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's fine as it is. Who cares if it's long? There's a lot of information to the story and the subject. The Parsnip! 20:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too much detail 

message: Just saying. The lead section needs a few more paragraphs to summarise the article, but it's a decent piece of work.--h i s   s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 14:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is well referenced, and is very close to good article status 

message: Is it just me or is the color all in red? Should I revert it back to black or leave it as it is.Janus8463 17:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes -- the font was turned red by a vandal at 17:13, 18 August 2007.71.242.176.86 03:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Color of article 

message: Charles Manson never raped a boy so why does it say "Less than a month before a scheduled February 1952 parole hearing, Manson raped a boy while holding a razor blade against his throat." in the first imprisonment article ????
I keep deleting it but it keeps gettinf put back up.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Finchm (talk • contribs) 12:59, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At the article, click down to the new version of the footnote, presently numbered 19.  You'll see I've added to it a passage from Manson in His Own Words, which I've introduced as "written as if it were Manson's autobiography and ... presented as based on, among other things, Manson's own statements to its author."  The said passage purports to give Manson's (self-exculpatory) account of the events.  Unless Manson in His Own Words is factitious, that eliminates the possibility the episode was merely rumored or a Bugliosi fabrication.JohnBonaccorsi 21:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rape statement 

message: Every now and then someone comes along and reverts the article to a form from many moons ago without discussion.  I don't own the article and I don't presume to say what is right and what is not. In a case like this, I think that a discussion of the changes (which erases a large number of sourced information and inserts unsourced info) should take place. So I reverted said changes.  Lets discuss it. --Chuck Sirloin 21:55, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's apparently still happening - can the editor involved please bring these changes to the table so they can be placed in by consensus and not by force? Rebochan 12:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, please do. Citing is required for any possibly contentious statement in bios of living persons.--Chuck Sirloin 17:30, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major Changes on 09/18/07 

message: I have undone a revision of the article’s first sentence.  The sentence that had been revised was as follows:
:Charles Milles Manson was the leader of what came to be known as the Manson Family, a commune that is often termed a cult and that began to form around him in the U.S. city of San Francisco in 1967.
The editor who revised it described it as far too wordy and confusing and replaced it with the following:
:Charles Milles Manson is a career criminal who founded and led the eponymous “family,” a cult in San Francisco in 1967.
The revision is unclear.  The reader coming to the subject for the first time can have no idea what is meant by “the eponymous ‘family.’”  He or she can have no idea why the word family is in quotation marks.  “Founded” is a misleading verb, which suggests the group was more formally organized than it was.  “Cult” is debatable (and has been the subject of back-and-forth editing).  The final phrase – “a cult in San Francisco in 1967” – has no syntactical relation to the rest of the sentence; insofar as it can be said to have meaning, it seems to indicate the group existed solely in San Francisco during the one year 1967.JohnBonaccorsi 02:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Charles Milles Manson is a career criminal who led the so-called Manson Family, a commune or cult that began to form around him in the U.S. city of San Francisco in 1967.
JohnBonaccorsi 03:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I see you have reneged on your goodbye and have once again revised the article's opening sentence to indicate Manson "led the eponymous 'family.'"  That wording is faulty.  "Family" is not itself eponymous.  The reader familiar with the subject -- i.e., familiar with the term "Manson Family" -- will know what you were trying to say; the reader unfamiliar with the subject will be mystified.  Your statement that an intelligent reader will know what you wrote is an attempt to muscle aside this criticism and happens to be faultily worded itself.  Your petulance, too, is objectionable.JohnBonaccorsi 10:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening sentence 

message: Unsourced miscellany is beginning to accumulate in the article’s section headed “Charles Manson in Popular Culture.”  Even the one source -- for the statement that “Marilyn Manson” is a stage name assembled from “Marilyn Monroe” and “Charles Manson” – does not seem reliable.  A glance at various sections above – i.e., on the present discussion page – makes clear that this is not a new problem.  At one point, an editor attempted to solve it by creating a separate article, “Charles Manson in Popular Culture”; but that seems to have been deleted from Wikipedia.  Although I am not qualified to say whether the deletion was demanded by Wikipedia guidelines, I suspected it would result in the material’s re-accumulating in the Charles Manson article itself.
There will be no reduction in the pressure to present the material, which is not uninteresting; so a proper place should be found for it.  It should not be included in Charles Manson; it makes the article unwieldy, tends to be unsourced, and is not always intelligible.  The present information about the South Park episode, for instance, includes a punchline that seems to indicate, inexplicably, that Manson has authored books.  A statement about an Alkaline Trio song includes a mistyped reference to “Charlies broken .22”  This was apparently supposed to be “Charlie’s broken .22”; but because the editor who entered it has not explained that the Tate crime-scene included fragments of a .22 caliber pistol that shattered when Tex Watson used it to bludgeon Wojciech Frykowski, the reader who has come to the Wikipedia article for information simply finds mush.JohnBonaccorsi 19:40, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My opinion about pop culture sections is: If it is not sourced and can't be added into the article itself as a paragraph, it doesn't belong. Delete delete delete. --Chuck Sirloin 00:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Return of the pop-culture references 

message: As a look at the revision history will confirm, this article is vandalized regularly, sometimes insidiously.  At 20:00 6 October 2007, for instance, a revision was made of the following sentence:  “The pair committed two armed robberies on their way to the home of the other boy’s uncle.”  As revised, the sentence read:  “The pair committed two armed robberies on their way to the home of the other boy’s uncle, and raped two girls along the way.”  Note that the sentence is footnoted and that the false information about rape could easily have been taken seriously.  In fact, three subsequent revisions of the article were made before the false information was spotted and removed.  (The removal was executed by me, who, as author of the original sentence, happened to spot the problem.)  I am not familiar with Wikipedia’s arrangements for protecting pages that are subject to chronic vandalism, but no revision of this article should post without a vandalism check by a guardian editor through whom it will have been routed.  (I am not, incidentally, volunteering.)JohnBonaccorsi 23:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the heads up.  A couple of instances a week for an article like this one are par for the course - unfortunately.  It's when the rate hits three or four an hour from multiple sources that we start to get twitchy.  Thanks for your good work!  Rklawton 23:44, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: There are a number of weasel words and poor, and possibly incorrect, citing in this article.
I've hopefully fixed one in /* "The Family" */ where it stated that Manson referred to the commune as the family (uncited). I changed this to "Bugliosi referred to as ..." (from Helter Skelter 1974 and the 25th Anniversary Edition Afterword © 1994 Vincent Bugliosi).
There is a weak reference in Manson's court testimony: "...  a lot could be cleared up and clarified to where everyone could understand exactly what the family was supposed to have been, ..." but later he implies other people are doing the referring: 
"Most of the people at the ranch that you call The Family ...", and other weaker sources deny Manson said this.
Furthermore the so-called Jesus quotation looks abridged, or maybe plain wrong, but I could not verify this as it's uncited and unreferenced. The best I found was from his testimony again:
"I may have implied on several occasions to several different people that I may have been Jesus Christ, but I haven't decided yet what I am or who I am." -Wikibob | Talk 13:29, 2005 May 22 (UTC)
On the night of August 29th, 1969, I was hitchhiking and walking, the Golden Gate Freeway #5, at approximately 2:00 a.m. I was returning after having painted my 1964 Buick Wildcat in Burbank, I was 15 years old. I had been stranded in Burbank unable to drive the Buick back home that night after the painting.  As I was walking there were few vehicles on the freeway that passed me by, until a Volkswagon Bus, either light blue or white, was moving slowly on the freeway pulled over. I ran up to the van, pleased someone had stopped. The driver asked in a slurred voice, "Wher ya going?" I told him I was heading into the valley off of Nordoff and Havenhurst. He said, "Hop in". I got into the van and noticed right away that the driver had a marijuana cigarette that he was smoking. The van was full of marijuana smoke and I rolled down the window in the front passenger seat. The driver offered his name saying, "I'm Chaarlie". I told him my name. He asked, "What's yu doing". I told him I was trying to get home after painting my 1964 Buick and couldn't drive it home and had to walk. He said, "I'm  goin' to Topanga and can drop ya off in Van Nuys". Then Charlie began to speak to me of his life. He invited me to come with him to his commune. He said he had lots of girls. He spoke of his anger toward the "machine" which controlled his life. He said, "Kill em' all! I was getting really weirded out by this man with stringy black hair, slurred voice, and small diminutive face. Funny thing, he never went over 30 miles an hour on the Golden Gate Freeway. He kept on insisting I come and spend the night. I told him, I have to get home so I can pick up the Buick later that day, now August 30th. When we came to the Osborne, I had him just pull over on the freeway and he dropped me off. As I was leaving the van I noticed that the back of the van had sheets covering the entire back of the van. I was so happy to get out of the VW bus. I had felt the darkness of this man as a fifteen year old kid. That feeling I can still remember. It would not be until December that I would see this man's face plastered on the front page of the LA times. I never told my parents. There was no denying I had brief encounter with Charles Manson.
Kevin RocqueKrocque (talk) 02:20, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Cite sources|Please cite sources]]