Talk:Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Library

message: I have been to the Dr. King Library, and while it is quite big, I highly doubt that it is the largest library west of the Mississippi.  That sentence comes directly from the SJPL's website... nowhere else, can someone verify this?  I'll try to do it myself, but help would be appreciated. Nevhood 20:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: sorry, the article is fine... SJPL's site is a little misleading --Nevhood 20:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Largest west of Mississipi?

message: The Vietnamese name for the King Library is Thư Viện King
WhisperToMe (talk) 16:31, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Foreign language names 

message: , in the wake of the above discussion, has been trying to double the length of the lead sentence by repeating the very long name of this institution but including the comma, and labelling it "official". At least  and I have independently reverted this. I can's speak for Mr. Lyon, but I object on the basis that it's brow-beating pedantry, and is also a misrepresentation, or at least a potential one. We have no source whatsoever suggesting that the library "officially" gives a damn at all.  I.e., the officialness claim is original research. The fact that building, when it was constructed, included a comma in its signage is meaningless.  It was more-or-less standard American English to use the comma a generation or so ago.  Times have changed, and it's been conclusively proven that the usage pattern has shifted away from the comma, including in American sources.  The fact that the signage hasn't been updated has no implications for WP article writing (it doesn't signify anything other than that a library, with a tight budget, is not going to waste money on signage changes no one cares about or would probably even notice).  Adding a comma doesn't make it a different name for encyclopedic purposes, any more than changing the font does, or the color.  We have a policy called WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE against bombarding readers with nitpicky trivia of this sort.
I invite Randy Kryn to attempt a policy- and reason-based refutation, on the talk page, until consensus is reached.  Or just yield on the matter, since we know what consensus will be reached already.  The page has already been protected to stop the WP:1AM editwarring.  If Kryn really wants to, he can open yet another WP:RFC about this side matter.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  13:00, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that says it pretty well. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:10, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Just about says it pretty well, except for maybe, the facts? Take a look at this. It's the real name of the library, in addition to that physical sign that the poor librarians can't afford to hire a guy to go up there on a ladder and chisel off the comma. We have come to the point in this comma-crusade, in this encyclopedia's existence, that the real name of an institution, the real name of the library, is not allowed to appear on its Wikipedia page. Literally. Why you wouldn't allow the real name to be listed as an alternate name is beyond my understanding. Is there a Catch-22 somewhere in there? Please explain. Randy Kryn 19:17, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Still not reading any reason why the real/official name of the library, the name which is on the building itself, and the name that its college website uses, can't be listed in the lead as an alternate name (other than that a generation ago, way back in 2003 when the library was opened, the comma was still used). Dr. King's complete name should not be whitewashed from Wikipedia, but that seems to be the intent of some with this comma purge. There are quite a few images of Dr. King's books and his and Coretta's grave on the site, all of which contain the comma - so maybe someone with photoshop expertise can get to work on those (same concept, how is it not?). Again, does anyone have a logical reason why the institutions real name can't at least be listed as an alternate name on the article about the real institution? Thanks. Randy Kryn 20:16, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Adding or removing the comma does not make a different name, and does not make the name more or less official, as evidenced by the fact that the library does it both ways themselves.  Dicklyon (talk) 21:44, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: We differ, it does create a different name. Maybe that's what much of this is about, that people who don't want commas in Jr. names think of it as a "hiccup" (read that in one of the discussions) or a simple grammar issue and others see it as a part of a person's name. In Dr. King's case, an iconic name in American and American history. And if the library does it 'both ways' at times that still doesn't erase the name on the building itself, on websites, and, as someone pointed out, on the libraries stationary. So why shouldn't it be able to be listed as an alternate name here? No clear answer on that as yet. Randy Kryn 22:23, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Most grammar and style guides treat this as a styling issue (and that the unbalanced comma is a grammar error).  Do you have any sources that say the comma or its absence makes a different name?  Dicklyon (talk) 00:55, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Haven't looked for sources, but since King's choice of name includes the comma there was never really a question until recently (and as mentioned before, he may have been too busy to question the Jet and Ebony preference). Reading or saying the name out loud does change it, because the comma indicates a pause. Martin Luther King (pause) Junior, seems the common name, or at least, as we've recently discussed, as common as 'Martin Luther King'. But reading or saying the name out loud without the comma runs all the words together, makes it a totally connected name. Changes it. Which is why I've been active on this issue. Randy Kryn 19:17, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not buying it.  One of the reasons that The Elements of Style changed to recommend omission of the comma is that a pause there made no sense, and it's not what people do.  And the reason that MLK Jr. used a comma there is that that was the tradition at the time, nothing about him in particular.  He omits in his signature, as far as I can tell in examining many of them.  Many contemporary writers and modern writers omit it, too.  Nobody thinks it's a different name (except you).  Dicklyon (talk) 19:51, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lengthy "comma-splaining" in the lead 

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