Talk:Muhammad al-Mahdi

message: I apologize for my lack of knowledge editing wikipedia. If someone wishes to edit this to add it to the discussion please do, if it's relevant. There's a lot of talk of Muhammad being a pedophile on the internet. Obviously there's no mention of it on the wikipedia entry, so I'm forced to assume it's false info. So I'm curious where/why this has become an issue, and where it's origins came from. - my ip addy is 75.101.124.18. Again, sorry for my lack of editing ability.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.101.124.18 (talk) 18:26, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Actually, Imam Hasan Al-Askari is the 11th Shi'ite Imam, the father of Imam Muhammad al-Mahdi.  The two are obviously not the same person.
YAM 21:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is generally not the wikipedia way to split a single person into two articles.  If Sunnis do not believe that he existed, that should be discussed in the main article. john k 21:51, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is already a page up for Mahdi, and there really is only a Shi'i POV on Muhammad b. Hasan 'Askari.  I'd keep them seperate and replace the name of this article to Muhammad b. Hasan 'Askari (as a 'historical' figure even though there is a great deal of mythology about his existence) and keep Mahdi as is.
Sufisticated 02:59, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  By the way - someone said shias believe imam askeri would return as imam mehdi - thats not true. Imam Mehdi (AS) is the son of Imam Askeri (AS) in shia POV87.194.54.232 (talk) 00:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article needs a lot of work! 

message: My apologies to whoever had written that section, but it wasn't corroborated with evidence so I had to remove a few statements. As far as I could find, there are NO mainstream sunnis who believe that Mohammad Al-Mahdi is the same as the Mahdi, since that is in direct opposition to several hadith's. For the same reason there are NO mainstream sunnis who do not believe in the mahdi. To dispute the mahdi is to dispute the hadith, held by sunnis to be the words and deeds of the Prophet. Sorry if that would offend anyone, I'm here if anyone wants to discuss this. --IBaghdadi 13:25, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What, you mean other than for Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy? — JEREMY 12:01, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Made some changes to "Sunni view", explained here 

message: Shouldn't this say "Twelver Shia" instead of "Shia"?  As I understand it Ismailis would not accept this statement.
: He is the person believed by Shi'as to be the Mahdi;
--Saforrest 04:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shia versus Twelver Shia 

message: This article says the Grand Occultation began in 939 CE but other web sites say 941. In fact, on a Google search for <"grand occulation" 939>, I get zero hits. For <"grand occulation" 941>, I get 544 hits. It seems that although there is agreement that the Grand Occultation took place on 10 Sawwal, there is a dispute among Muslims on whether the this was in 327 A.H. (939 CE) or 329 A.H. (941 CE). The article should either mention this disagreement or else only have the better-attested date of 329 AH (941 CE).
Giving the dates in a mix of A.H. and Gregorian is quite confusing. Why say "10 Sawwal 939" instead of "10 Sawwal 327 AH (30 July 939 C.E)" or "10 Shawwal 329 AH (8 July 941 C.E.)". Or, given that Wikipedia favors CE dates "30 July 939 C.E (10 Sawwal 327 AH) " or "8 July 941 C.E. (10 Shawwal 329 AH)". Interlingua  talk email 19:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It happened at 329 AH when the last deputies,Abul Hasan Ali ibn Muhammad al-Samarri , died. This year is very famus because in this year some of the other famus Shiite scholars like Koleini deid too. If ther is anybody who thinks 327 is correct, he/she should show the reliable reference.--Sa.vakilian 03:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  939 or 941 CE? 

message: "Whatever the case, both groups believe that he will bring absolute peace and justice throughout the world by establishing Islam as the only permissible religion resulting in oppression and death for unbelievers."
I removed it. It is controvercial and need reliable reference.--Sa.vakilian 18:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Doubtful claim

message: "This Imam was created by Ashas-ebne-oof one of the followers of Imam Askari. After Imam Askari's death (because he had not any children) Ashas decided to create a child for him to integrate Shias and don't let them to spread. He said to Shias that Imam had a child but for security options Imam Askari did not say to anyone about him and he is safely gaurded by us in the cellar. 
Jafar (Imam Askari's brother) said it's a lie because if there exists any children for him I must know about it. but Ashas said to people that he is a lier and called him Jafar-e-Kazzab (Jafar the lier).
The people believed him but after sometimes they had doubt about new Imam and they wanted to see him.
Ashas said that we prayed behind him last night and he said I must go and I'll be back when the world become ready to accept me. He disappeared after that."
I removed this part from the article. This part isn't verifiable. You should refer to reliable sources if you want to add it in the article. Also the title "The realistic history" seems POV.--Sa.vakilian 05:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The realistic history 

message: Over at 2007#Unknown dates, it says "The Hidden Imam will appear this year, according to Iranian President Ahmadinejad." Seems this should be listed here. . Anybody have quotes, cites for this prediction? — coelacan talk — 04:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2007 

message: This should be changed to Academic Observations, as Scholarly could confuse people to  think these are the opinions of Muslim scholars. 79.183.238.8 (talk) 21:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [Scholarly observations

message: The section on the Baha'i view is entirely incorrect. Baha'is do in fact believe in the authority of Muhammad al-Mahdi as the Twelfth Imam, and in the four Gates. However, we also believe that al-Bab was the promised return of the Mahdi.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.169.201.140 (talk) 19:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Baha'i View

message: Does mainstream, secular, historiography have any kind of consensus on whether Muhammad al-Mahdi is/was a real, historical person or not? If so, please add this info, although I fear it might cause edit wars. If there is no consensus, this should be stated too. -- 77.7.142.4 (talk) 14:57, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this a historical person? 

message: Various IP editors keep deleting this section.  Perhaps we could have a discussion?--Toddy1 (talk) 09:09, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Discussion would be good.  So far, nor real reason for the deletion has been offered.  Edward321 (talk) 14:57, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I didn't see this thread. The last deletion explained the reason in the edit summary. The content is at Mahdi#Ahmadiyya Viewpoint, and as I understand it, Ahmadiyya believes Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the Mahdi, rather than Muhammad al-Mahdi. StAnselm (talk) 20:17, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Good explanation, the content definitely belongs in that article, not this one. Edward321 (talk) 23:07, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Should the section on the Ahmadiyya view be deleted?

message: Islamic Messianism: The Idea of Mahdī in Twelver Shīʻism By Abdulaziz Abdulhussein Sachedina
* «For more than a millenium the idea of the future coming of the Mahdi has provided Shi'i piety with a unique aspiration in the redemption through the appearance of the twelfth Imam.», p. ix
* «The belief in the appearance  of Hidden Imam as the Mahdi helped Shi'ites to endure under unbearable situations and to hope for a just future pending the return of Mahdi. It would not be an exaggeration to suggest that without such a belief in the role of the twelfth Imam the Imammite  religion might not have  been able to survive persecutions under different dynasties in the course of   Islamic history before it becomes established as the official  creed of the safavid empire at the beginning of the sixteenth century...Thus, the ghayba of the Imam has acted as a creative force in the lives of the Imamites in order not only to help them bear with patience the difficult times, but also to prepare them to fulfill their historical responsibility of establishing a true Islamic rule even before Imam assumes  the leadership of the Imamiyya. », pp. 181-183
* «The hope in future coming of the Imam thus became the moderating force among the Imamiya who postponed any political action pending the appearance of the Awaited Mahdi and al-Qaim... (Twelver Messianism:) the quietist movement which aimed at peaceful existence within the Muslim community at large while retaining its peculiarity regarding the Imamate especially the Imamate of the HIdden Hujja.» p. 60
*  «Al-Sharif al-murtada in his Treatise on the Occultation of the Twelfth Imamite Imam, has summarized the Imamite argument about the Imam being lutf even during the ghayba as follows:» p. 134
...because with their awareness of his existence among them and their being certain about the incumbency to obey him, they will inevitably fear him and respect him [so that they would not] commit an evil deed. They are are afraid of being chastised or reprimanded by him. In this manner the [performance of] vile deeds will decrease among them and the good deeds will increase or at least they will be closer to such a thing.  
* «Both Muhammad al-Baqir and Ja'far al-Sadq were at various times approached by their followers and assured of their support if they wanted to rise against the existing regime. The Imam had to appease the impatience of their Shi'a by saying that while it was true that all the Imams were Qa'im and thus capable of overthrowing unjust rule, the eschatalogical Qa'im would appear after concealment  to wipe out injustice  only when God would command  him to do so» pp. 15-16
* «The Alid Imams had realized the futility of any attempt to establish an Alid caliphate especially after what had befallen Ali al-Reda in 817. Consequently, they seem t have encouraged the idea of the future establishment of the legitimate caliphate, after the return of the Imam in concealment.» pp. 25-26 
* «Imam al-Hadi continued to live more freely during these years. It must have been during these years that he appointed Uthman al-Amri to his personal reppresentative and agent in Baghdad. Uthman was also  subsequently confirmed in his office by al-Askari and the last Imam.» p. 28
* «The period which gave rise to this confusion began with the caliphate of al-Mu'tamid and continued up to the time of al-Muqtadir.  During this time, the agents of the dead Imam persisted in upholding the belief that there existed a son of al-Askari in occultation who would rise when God commands him to do so.  The upholders of this belief were under attack from all sides and met with severe opposition. THe Abbasids were particularly concerned about the messianic successor of al-Askari in concealment. Al-Mutamid for this reason ordered the house of the Imam to be investigated, and all the rooms were locked after being searched. Efforts were made to find out if the Imam had left a son, and midwives were appointed in the harem of the Imam in order to detect any pregnancy. One of the slave girls was suspected to be pregnant and isolated in a room in a special house where she was kept under surveillance. On one occasion al-Askari's wife (Sayqal, mother of the infant Imam) was imprisoned on refusing to reveal the whereabout of her son. ... This situation continued until the caliphate was caught in the political disturbances caused by the Zanj and provincial leaders in Iran, Egypt and Syria. » p. 41
* «The Abbasid had also supported Ja'far a brother of al-Askari and claimant to the office of the Imamate in order to createa dispute whithin the Imam's family. Our sources describe Ja'far as a worldly and pleasure-loving man who in order to become the Imam had used various repressive means in the presence of al-Mu'tamid and more than once has tried to slander those who upheld the Imamate of the infant son of al-Askari in concealment.» p.41
*  «Jabir, the well-know companion of the prophet is reported to have asked the prophet about the benefit of having Imam in ghayba, to which he replied that the Shiites would obtain light witht he help of light of Imam and would benefit by the means of his love (welaya) during his occultation, just as the people would benefit from the sun while it is covered by the clouds.»  p. 105
Kazemita1 (talk) 15:16, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  A new secular source 

message: Currently, the article says:
"The Twelver Shias were a minority shia group, amongst the various Shia groups until Ismail I made conversion mandatory to the Twelver Shias"
However, when I check the sources mentioned in the article, the claim is not supported:
*Encyclopedia Iranica:
"The second major problem facing Esmāʿīl was how to convert a nominally Sunni population to Eṯnā-ʿašarī Shiʿism"
*Shi'i Islam in Iranian Cinema, p. 23:
"Sunnis remained the majority in Persia and continued to dominate its major urban centres for several centuries, there was a gradual resurgence of Twelver Shi'ism which was allowed for the first time...Clearly, the significance of the Shi'a in Iran cannot be overlooked. Indeed as shown above their role and influence in these lands stretches back to the formative period of Islam, and not merely to the rise of the Safavids in the early sixteenth century as is conventional in most other historical accounts of the development o f Shi'ism in Iran."
* I find nothing supporting this claim on The Cambridge History of Iran, Volume 6 edited by Peter Jackson, Lawrence Lockhart Page 618 either.
* Commissar and Mullah: Soviet-Muslim Policy, p. 153:
"Shiism only became popular in Iran in the 16th century. In the Middle Ages Iran was Sunni"
*Islamic Architecture: Form, Function and Meaning  By Robert Hillenbrand, p. 152:
"But the bulk of Iran was Sunni, and it is therefore not surprising that minarets from Sunni areas far outnumber those from Shi'ite ones."
In other words, all the above sources are saying Shiism was in minority and Sunnism was the majority before Safavid (Ismail I) came to power. They are not suggesting, the twelver sect of Shiism was a minority inside Shiism. As a matter of fact, sources suggest something completely different:
«by the third and fourth decades of the 10th century(i.e. the closing years of the Lesser Occultation), the majority of the Shiis were agreed about the line of the Twelve Imams.» 
An Introduction to Shi'ism, By Mojan Momen, Yale University Press
--Kazemita1 (talk) 04:38, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding a claim in the article

message: Marge with the general Mahdi page?--88.111.129.157 (talk) 19:44, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: We do not merge, because Mahdi is the name of a savior which is an idea, but Mohammad al-Mahdi is a real person that is the twelfth Imam of Shia.--Salman mahdi (talk) 06:22, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Could we perhaps put (Twelver Shia) or something along those lines in the title such as Muhammed ibn Hasan to prevent the confusion?--88.111.125.56 (talk) 16:08, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Combine 

message: I am mentioning here the full passage.--Kazemita1 (talk) 11:51, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The full passage from Brill's Encyclopedia of Islam

message: Marziyeh.k has twice added "However, living a long life is not something new or impossible. The longevity of Noah is directly mentioned in Quran : “And We certainly sent Noah to his people, and he remained among them a thousand years minus fifty years, and the flood seized them while they were wrongdoers” " to the article.   This is clearly original research on their part. Edward321 (talk) 23:45, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not an original research. In this phrase example of Prophet Noah from Holy Quran has been referred in support.  A Number of books contained material about the topic of Longevity citing reference of Prophets Esa, Younus, Shoaib, Khizr etc.  The flag of OR does not merit to be applied here.  Nannadeem (talk) 17:55, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is original research, because it is only sourced to the Qur'an. According to WP:ISLAMOR, we should not interpret the Qur'an ourselves, but let secondary sources do that for us. --HyperGaruda (talk) 15:55, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: According to WP:ISLAMOR, "Primary sources may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge" .So the statement can be applied to the verse in which the longevity of Noah is mentioned, because it is discussing his age which is a straightforward, descriptive statement of facts. Marziyeh.k (talk) 17:39, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Saying that "Noah lived for a thousand minus fifty years" would be a straightforward, descriptive statement of facts. To conclude from it, that "living a long life is not something new or impossible" IS original research. --HyperGaruda (talk) 19:08, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dr. Aubrey de Grey a British scientist has already claimed that the secret to preventing ageing may be solved in the near future and that some people born already may live for up to a 1,000 years .  Thus I have liberty to claim that "living a long life is not something new or impossible" is not the original research in this article. Nannadeem (talk) 18:41, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Note the words "may be" and "future" in "may be solved in the near future". In other words, living a long life has not happened yet, so claiming that it "is not new or impossible" is currently still original research. Also, it would be WP:SYNTHESIS, because that newspaper article does not speak at all about Muhammad al-Mahdi. --HyperGaruda (talk) 04:05, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Application of "may be" is equal to possibility.  Where there is possibility insisting on impossibility is contrary to common sense.  If one considers the long live is impossible then example of any Prophet with ref to his long life  cannot be treated  as an OR.  Muslims has absolute faith in the verdict "Qullu Nafsin Za Iqatul Maut! Everything that lives shall taste Death!"  Muslims further believe that Prophet Isa Ibn Maryam is still alive. Shatan (Iblees) is inferior to Human, he is still living!  Nannadeem (talk) 15:54, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research 

message: I've removed this section as it was essentially prophecy in Wikipedia's voice.  If someone wants to re-add it, it needs to be in encyclopaedic language and properly sourced.  GoldenRing (talk) 17:33, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attributes 

message: You permanently removed all the content I had added from 18:09, 13 May 2017 to 05:56, 14 May 2017 to Muhammad al-Mahdi claiming that they were copy-right violation from Eurasia Review while the two sources I had cited was rather the Hudson Institute which is the original publisher. So was your charge about the text or the source? 185.119.241.94 (talk) 17:22, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It does not matter which was the original source; the material is copyright, and it's not okay to copy-paste copyright material into our articles. Please see our copyright policy for more information on copyright law and how it applies to Wikipedia. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 20:28, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:   I see! So it means I didn't adequately rephrased the text. But can you provide me the copy of the text so that I can rephrase it and add it back to the page? It is boring to read the two long articles all over again. 185.119.241.94 (talk) 17:22, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

text:   I don't know if my last message effectively notified you. Please note my request. Thanks! 185.119.241.94 (talk) 14:43, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The overlapping content is visible in this report. Click on the iThenticate link to view the overlapping content. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 19:51, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, thanks! I restored the texts after rephrasing them. I added segments that were difficult to paraphrase inside quotations marks to avoid copy-right violations.185.119.241.94 (talk) 12:10, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Contemporary influence 

message: , Can you explain why you insist on this change? The change of titles doesn't make sense. This section must have a title that meaningfully represents the subsections (Contemporary influence and Controversies). Changing it from "Historical social impact" to "Attributes" doesn't do that! And this section properly explains the attributes of Mahdi, not all of which are prophecies. So I don't see why you insist on changing the title from "Attributes" to "Prophecies". --Expectant of Light (talk) 16:55, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't change "Historical social impact" to "Attributes". If something is not a prophecy then remove it and put it in the appropriate section. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:01, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  ‌But I still don't see why that section should change to "Prophecies". First there are several other prophecies mentioned in the entire body of the article that are related to other titles and can't be moved to this section. Second, the character traits of Mahdi in Shia Islam pertain to an actual alive person. Hence they are not so much prophecies than news. As for Sachedina's descriptions of his promised uprising, since those points are broadly mentioned elsewhere in the article, I'd rather use his description as an opening for the section on Historical impact instead of Attributes or Prophecies.--Expectant of Light (talk) 04:09, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

text:   --Expectant of Light (talk) 08:37, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing section titles 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: Can I ask why you changed the name of the article from Muhammad al-Mahdi to Hujjat-Allah al-Mahdi, saying "Changed to correct name according to Shia sources", when non-Twelver Shi'ites don't accept this guy to be real, the Occulted Imam, or the Mahdi? Leo1pard (talk) 17:12, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: Actually there are many Shia traditions. Lplp1213 (talk) 16:00, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  There are some mistakes 

message: Controversial content requires credible and verifiable sources. Added resources are not valid enough.M.Nadian (talk) 11:52, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last edit 

message: A lot of this article is in present tense as though this person is still alive. Is that what is believed? The article should make this clearer. --Wikipedia Wonderful 698-D (talk) 01:06, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear writing -- still alive? 

message: The new edits address the following issues (in addition to other improvements, hopefully). As a general criticism, the article was light on historical details and heavy on beliefs and numerous back and forths between various editors with opposing views. 
* What's the point of "Most Sunni Muslims reject that he was..." in the lead? The article already starts by clarifying that this is a Twelver belief. The Sunni view is discussed in detail later in the article.
* There are lots of primary sources in the article and most of their claims are already covered by better secondary sources.
* The section "Condition after Al-Askari's death" was replaced with "Historical background" with more relevant content. 
* The section "Non-Twelver views" about mahdism is not relevant in this article about Muhammad ibn Hasan. See Mahdi for mahdism. A large part of this section consists of poorly sourced material about "Hazrat Ishaan". More relevant material was added under "Connections with the Islamic figure of Mahdi."
* Some of the material is sourced from websites.
* The subsection "Consequences" was merged with "Historical and social impact." The latter was also renamed, see below.
* The section "Scohlarly observations" is mainly a battleground for Sunni and Shia editors to attack each other. There is hardly any justification for a section like this in an article about Shia history.
* The very long quote from Khorasani was summarized in the text.
* The section "Attributes" can be easily merged with the later sections. It doesn't seem to contain any new information. 
* The last paragraph of "Historicity" is obviously irrelevant here (and discussed earlier). It could be argued that a historicity section is a bad idea as it's not clear the historicity of what (among all the information on this page) is being examined. If it's the existence of al-Mahdi that's in question, it's much better to discuss it in "Birth and early life." Everything in "Historicity" seems to be covered in "Birth and early life," except Corbin's philosophical comment and the last paragraph (which is covered later). This is perhaps a strong case for removing this section. 
* "It also acted as a moderating force among them by postponing political activities until the future coming of the Awaited Mahdi" is not in the source (Sachedina, 181-183). Similarly, "strive to build their own provisional Islamic government in anticipation of Mahdi's promised rule" is not in the source (Sachedina, 182-183) Precise page numbers for some other claims were added.
* Subsection "Secular democracy during Occultation" is far from neutral and solely promotes the view that the current Iranian system of governance is illegitimate. Without taking a side in this argument, it's clear that Wikipedia is not the place for such one-sided political arguments. This subsection was summarized and, in particular, the very long quote was removed. 
* A summary of the paragraph "The Shia millennial vision of history continues to be expressed...," taken from Sachedina, already appears earlier.
* The caption "Akhund Khurasani is known to be the greatest theorist of Usuli Shi'ism in modern times" clearly has to be removed. 
* The title "Historical social impact" was replaced with the seemingly more appropriate "Sociopolitical impact."
* There is no mention of Akhund Khurasani in the given source for the sentence "During the first democratic revolution of Asia, ..."
* "Hence, he refuted the idea of absolute guardianship of jurist" seems to be redundant and was removed because the said concept is not yet introduced in the article and this opposition to the said concept also becomes evident from the next paragraph (which starts with "On the other hand...") 
* "that apparently exemplifies this influence in form of" is not implied in the source.
* "under the influence of the Lebanese resistance organization Hezbollah" might be misinterpreting the source, which actually doesn't hold Hezbollah responsible for the recent changes (while that may very well be the case in reality). 
* Cleaned up the links and removed the dead ones. Albertatiran (talk) 18:11, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  New edits 

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