Talk:Palestinians/Archive 6

message: Deleted from The origins of Palestinian identity:
:However, the Palestinians, like most Arab nationalities, have come to view themselves as primarily Palestinians (rather than as primarily Arabs, or Syrians, or citizens of a particular town) mostly in the past century.
This sentence assumes that there is (or has been) a particular group called "Palestinians" but it does not explain how this group came into being. Nor does it explain how this group, if it previously existed, came to self-designate as "Palestinians". Since this is the key part of the article and the main focus of this section, I'd like to see at least SOME detail here. 
This sentence implies that some Arabs of Palestine became a nationality (or wanted a nationality, or wanted to create yet another Arab nation in Palestine). It's not clear which.
This sentence does not, however, explain what it means to "view themselves as Palestinians". And it seems to contradict the etymological material just a few sentences earlier, which identifies "Palestinians" with Filisteeni (which sounds a lot like the "Philistines" of the Old Testament. --Uncle Ed 19:19, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Begging the question

message: This image - :Image:Flag of Palestine.svg is the official flag of the Palestinian Authority. Why is it "widely considered the symbol of the Palestinian people"? And what does that mean, anyway?
Do non-Arab Palestinians feel that the PNA flag represents them? Do Israeli Arabs feel that the flag of the Palestinian Authority is an ethnic symbol for them? Or a political symbol? Or what?
Much of this is not clear. --Uncle Ed 16:46, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As Ramalite cites above, please see this source, e.g., . Lokiloki 19:06, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I object. The NPOV dispute has not been settled. At issue is the meaning of the phrase "the Palestinian people" (among other things). Please put back the NPOV tag until the dispute is settled. --Uncle Ed 14:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What's with the flag?

message: Where should the following factsideas go?
*USA Today correspondent Jack Kelley reported: 
*:Children serve as infantry in the confrontations between Israeli and Palestinian soldiers. In scenes reminiscent of Iranian children sent to the Iraqi front equipped with plastic keys to heaven, Palestinian children are sent close to Israeli positions with rocks and Molotov cocktails, while the gunmen and snipers fire from positions hundreds of yards back. 
*Palestinian terrorist groups use many different methods of encouraging the youth to embrace the ways of terror. The most important method is of ensuring that an environment of hatred is maintained in the society. And the youths are kept in a perpetual state of anger. To accomplish this goal, radical Islamism as represented by Hamas, Hezbollah and other Arab terrorist groups make sure that no one in the society speak against their methods. There are reports that Palestinian armed groups have pressured families of those who have been killed while carrying out attacks, including children, not to condemn but to welcome and endorse their relatives' actions. 
The article should have a link to anti-Israeli terrorism or "freedom fighting" or whatever these people think they're doing. --Uncle Ed 19:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are very fast losing my respect if you take racist garbage like this and refer to it as 'facts'. Ramallite (talk) 20:02, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Note change from "facts" to "ideas". --Uncle Ed 20:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You might be interested in this. Please note that peddling these sorts of articles is like insisting on quoting garbage out of Protocols of the Elders of Zion on Wikipedia. I take great offense to both sorts of crap. I will assume good faith and believe that you do not have malicious intentions with these dehumanization articles. Ramallite (talk) 20:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Whether or not information is disgusting to you has no bearing on the factual status of said information. Facts should be included. Tastes should be excluded. yonkeltron 06:07, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Terrorist use of Palestinian Arab children

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=78831&contrassID=3&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0
** In Palestinian people on Sun Jul 16 21:20:39 2006, Socket Error: (-3, 'Temporary failure in name resolution')
** In Palestinian people on Mon Jul 17 16:50:28 2006, Socket Error: (-3, 'Temporary failure in name resolution')
** In Palestinian people on Thu Jul 27 01:03:47 2006, Socket Error: (-3, 'Temporary failure in name resolution')
----maru   (talk)  contribs 05:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: OK, this is a message to the admins, isn't it time for this page to go thru a total clean up, its filled with the ranting of propagandists, anti-arab racists who not only stole the lands of palestinians but are now trying to deprive them from their identity.
Without a doubt this page should be cleaned up.  However, the allegations that the above writer makes about "anti-arab racists" are unfounded and belligerent.Mr.lightbulb 02:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Clean up

message: see History of Palestine. Cannanites weren't among the first and whole section has nothing to do with palestinian arab people. Amoruso 06:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: with respect, the "books" are obviously false, and the sources cited do not adhere to WP:RS. It needs a total re-write. Amoruso 02:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: So the Cannanites are the Jebusites and that's it ? This needs to be re-written completly from the scholary point of other articles like the history capital. Don't remove the tag please and removing it is also not a minor change. Amoruso 08:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: The quote from Lewis is correct, but I am humbly pointing out that it says: "Canaanites (including the Phoenicians and Hebrews)", thus including the Hebrews among the Canaanites. If the reference to Lewis is to be correct, it must be complete. That said, Arabs in History is a pretty dated work; its first edition was published back in 1947 when population genetics did not even exist as a science. The view of Arabia as a common homeland of the Semitic people is still popular, but much debated nowadays. Beit Or 20:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: palestinian ancestry part ridicilous

message: I figure that same as with other nationalitiesexamples: , , the front image should be of prominant figures rather than an obscure image of two smiling children. Jaakobou 09:23, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Palestnian Imagery

message: :I have never seen as much patent nonsense as much of this page's silliness. I am a Jew, an American, and a Zionist (meaning, I support the sovereignty of the State of Israel), and I support the rights of the Palestinian people as well. The genetic substrate of Ashkenazi Jews should be apparent to anyone who has traveled the world and visited synagogues in cities. If you go to synagogue in Sweden, you will see that almost all Jews have yellow flaxen hair. Not exactly a Middle Eastern characteristic. Go to France, and you will find most Jews look French. You would not generally confuse a Danish Jew with a Russian Jew. Why is this? When I was a student at Yeshiva, we were taught the same myth someone mentioned above, that Jews maintained genetic purity until the beginning of Reform Judaism in nineteenth-century Germany, by refraining from intermarriage with the Christian host civilizations throughout Europe. Well, we were taught a lot of other such incorrect "facts." Even at that time, this myth was suspicious. Why do Jews in most European countries resemble their neighbors? All the new Jewish Histories explain how intermarriage was a constant fact in Jewish history as far back as the Roman Empire. Juvenal (second century AD), in one of his satires, jokes that the old Roman aristocratic families were becoming so intermarried with Jews, that it was becoming more and more difficult to enjoy a good meal of pork in a Roman household. None of this really matters, in any case. What is anyone trying to "prove" by these silly arguments? My parents were Hungarian immigrants to the United States; I doubt if I have much in common genetically with my friend, who is descended from two signers of the Declaration of Independence. Does that make me less of an American? The State of Israel is a sovereign nation. Of what interest is the genetic makeup of its citizens? Similarly, Palestinians, whether Muslim, Jewish, or Christian, whose families lived in that region for a period of time, and have cultural, religious, ethnic, and other connections to the land, are clearly Palestinians, regardless of any silly "genetic" claims of any kind. Why must there be disputes over such elementary notions? These people clearly have a connection to the land, as well as a distinct culture and ethos. It should also be clear that Palestinians have a separate identity from Saudis, Iraqis, or Egyptians, just as Frenchmen, Italians, and Germans have different cultural identities, despite the fact that they are all white European Christians. Irish Catholics are different from Italian Catholics, and Italian Catholics are even different from French Catholics, who live right next to them. German Jews conceived of themselves as different from Hungarian Jews, who in turn looked differently at Polish Jews. And how any human being could complain of a photograph of two smiling children as pushing a point of view is unimaginable. If the complaint were that the children were not in fact Palestinian, it would make sense. But the attempt to deligitimize the photo by comparing it to other photos in other articles, and arguing that "this photo does not depict prominent citizens, as other photos of e.g. Swedes do" is just revolting. We all know that the article for every country, ethnic group, or religion is going to present photos showing the best and the most attractive representation of its citizens or members. The article on Jews is not going to present a photo of Ivan Boesky in a prominent position, the article on Christianity is not going to trumpet Torquemada or Khmelnytsky, and the article on Islam is not going to display the handsome features of Osama bin Laden as its calling card. This article is no different, and should not have to meet a different standard. Jews should know enough about persecution, suffering and being marginalized to refrain from speaking of Palestinians the way Jews were spoken of for hundreds of years in Europe. 66.108.105.21 02:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with anonymous 66.108.105.21 posting above. At the same time, why some people insist on keeping the Disputed tag in regard to the ancestry section. Would they explictly say what is disputed there. Would they tell us what is the supposed ancestry of the Palestinians and give us other references aprat from these already there. If not then, the tag will be removed in the few days ahead! Thanks. Almaqdisi talk to me 03:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears to me that Sir James for you is like Mark Twain for me. In any case, he was a notable anthropolgist and that was his area os specilization. Plus, it does not sees that DNS results contradict that the Palestinian population is an original typical Mediterranean population, with offshoots to the Canaanites, and others, similar to Jews in many case. Plus it is interesting to note that Much of the Muslim Population of Palestine is a convert population from Pre-Islamic invasion populations. This is really confirmed by the fact that Umayyid's had to put their army in Ramle instead of Jerusalem which continued to be mostly Christians until just before th Abbasid time. Similar may be said to other parts of the Levant. I do not see therefore the Palestinian ancestry part very outrageous. If you have strong evidence that the Palestinian population in general is a new blood strem not related in any way to Pre-Islamic invastion, then plese provide those for use to discuss here. Also, note that I use the word Pre-Islamic invasion, becuase as we discussed before, you recall that Arabs were in Palestine much longer than the arrival of Islam. This is related to Tadmor and Nabateans and other trbes living in Palestine. As a matter of fact, I have the Quote from Patriarck Sophronius who before Umar Bin al-Khattab visited, was presented with this dilemma. This dilemma being that it was not an issue for him whether Palestine will be Arab or not, because as he mentioned that much of the residents in Judea were already Arabs. He was of course worried about the conversion and change of religions. This all shows that Arabs in the Levant were present even before Islam arrival. Finally, you may consider this article propoganda, but it might be good to have a look at Jerusalem.. 5,000 Years of Arab History. Also you may want to have a look and thisEverything You Ever Knew About Jerusalem Is Wrong (Well, Almost) Almaqdisi talk to me 12:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That article is indeed not very serious as it starts by saying that Jebusites were Arabs but they didn't descend from the Arab Peninsula which is the definition for this. Haldrik explained that After King David conquered the area during the Iron Age, all Canaanites (south of Lebanon) either assimilated into the dominant Israelite culture or went extinct. Jews are the surviving remnant of the Canaanites. Hebrew is the local dialect of the Canaanite language. There are no other Canaanites in this area after the Iron Age. Any Palestinian who claims to be a "Canaanite" is infact claiming to be a Jew and cant be an Arab. He explained this in detail there, it's why the section is written from a wrong perspective. Amoruso 12:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: But it is also interesting to note that in Arabic history, very much earlier than this century, I am talking about hundreds of years before, Arabs considered, Ghassan, Adnan, Kahtan, Canaan, etc as all Arabian tribes that have all affliliations in the Peninsula. The Arabian Peninsula even at some point in time included South Iraq and Jordan in its defitions. But in any case, this was only confirmed by modern researchers that indeed Canaanites are Arabians in origin. Note that the word Arab better discrbes someone who speaks Arabic, while Arabian better fits the description of someone with origin in the Arabian Peninsula. Arabic as a languaged, just as Hebrew evoloved for thousands of years. It is quite clear that much of the current Hebrew/Arabic words are closly related to the Canaanite and Aramaic expressions. So it is really quite hard to think that this is not the case. The Canaanites absorbed all cultures, including the Hebrews and Philistines. Almaqdisi talk to me 12:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If Arabic is defined solely by the language it's a different issue, but it isn't and rightfully so. Else, most Palestinians will be Jews because they speak Hebrew these days. I agree with Haldrik that Probably some of the Palestinian Christians are "Canaanites". In other words, they are the descendents of ancient Canaanites who became Jews who converted to Christianity and who resisted the Arab Muslim invaders. Palestinians dont come from the "Canaanites". Palestinians come dominantly from Arabs and also Nabateans, and European Crusaders. They arent Canaanites. Amoruso 12:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But I think the article is not claiming otherwise, it is only showing that Palestinians have deep history in their land, and that they have strong ties with Pre Islamic invasions along with intermarriage with new invadors. Most Muslim Palestinians were christians at one point in time. christianity was the prime religion of Arabs in the Levant before Islam. That is known. Plus again, it seems all citations here are only confirming this. I do not see really any problem with that. Almaqdisi talk to me 13:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article gets it wrong. Haldrik explained for instance why this sentence is wrong "Canaanites are considered to be among the first to live in cities in Palestine. [18][19]. Some of the Canaanites are believed to have migrated in the 3rd millenium BC from the inner Arabian Peninsula" . This is also not related "Additionally, Israelites, Philistines, Romans, Arabs, Crusaders, and other people have all settled in the region and some intermarried" - it's simply not a serious discussion. Also, the use of Fraser make the section disputed as he was debunked completley later as seen above. Amoruso 13:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: So what is the origin of the Palestinians as you suggest? They all came from the deserts of Arabia? This is too simplistic and contradicts all history books and is basically wrong. Tons of references in this section already that argues otherwise. What is the point here in discrediting this info. It is all relevant and sounds accurate Almaqdisi talk to me 14:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I said it above: "Palestinians come dominantly from Arabs and some from also Nabateans, and European Crusaders, but mostly Arab immigration. Anyway, Arabs, Nabateans, and European Crusaders - the point is NOT cananites. Amoruso 14:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not understand what is meant by Arab immigration. I think such immigration has already been refuted by many. There has been a Jewish immigratin to Palestine in the last century, but not an Arab one. I think you realise that after 1948, only 170,000 Arabs remained. Now they are more than 1,200,000. Is this immigration or what? Please explain...?  Almaqdisi talk to me 14:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody denies there was Arab immigration to Palestine. First of all it's never been refuted, the scope of it has been questioned. But basically the demographic stats are facts. Also, you're confusing with the time of the immigration, immigration occured anyway, the question is how much and when. This is irrelevant since immigration took place anyway whether you believe it was in the 7th century and whether you accept the fact that a lot of it happened in the 19th century, it doesn't matter. Amoruso 15:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I think that a lot of the confusion here results from conflating ethnic, religious and racial categories. Let me try to explain by an example: The French are racially the same as the Italians or the English; they are Caucasians. But there is still a significant difference, owing to ethnic, linguistic and cultural differences. I think that Palestinians are racially identical to Egyptians or Saudis, or Sephardic Jews, for that matter; they are Arabs (a distinct race, or at least a distinct subgroup among the Caucasians). Yemeni or Iraqi Jews, for example, are Arabs. But not Muslim Arabs, obviously. But when you start to discuss whether Palestinians are Canaanites, you are making a category mistake, I believe. Canaanites were just one subculture among the many ancient Near Eastern Arabs. They are akin to Amorites, Hebrews, Assyrians, etc. There was no faith of Islam for anyone to belong to for another fifteen hundred years, at least. The birth of Islam is a relatively late event in the formation of the Arab peoples. By the time of Muhammad, Arab ethnicity had existed for at least three thousand years. The bottom line in areas such as the Near East or Continental Europe is that there has been a continuous migration of peoples for thousands of years, and a consequence of that is that the attempt to delimit a classificatory system of peoples or ethnic groups is virtually impossible. An excellent example is the Balkans, which bears a great similarity to the Near East in this respect. Serbians, Poles, Croats, Bosnians, Slavs, Bulgarians, Moldavians, Macedonians, White Russians, Ukranians, Jews, Muslims, Turks, Magyars and others have been migrating back and forth, warring amongst each other for over two thousand years. For anyone to attempt even remotely to achieve any sort of consensus is well-nigh hopeless, and likely to result in fiascos such as followed the First World War and the Treaty of Trianon, with the catastrophes that inevitably resulted. Finally, I repeat my earlier comments above: What is the goal of such enquiry? If it is ordinary anthropological research, I can see the point. But if there is an underlying motivation of assessing "rights" to disputed land in Israel/Jordan/West Bank, etc., I again state that the entire inquiry is ill-founded:  It is as if someone were to claim that France really "belongs" to Italy, because the Romans possessed Gaul, until the Franks "invaded" and took it by force. What happened a thousand years ago is, with the rarest of exceptions, irrelevant to contemporary  politics. France is a sovereign nation. No country can lay claim today to part of her with any moral force. Similarly with Israel, and with similar countries in the region, such as Jordan or Kuwait. These are sovereign nations, and the staking of "claims" to their territories is an ill-founded pursuit, likely to result in nothing but suffering for the peoples involved. The creation of the State of Israel, like that of Jordan, Syria, or Iraq, is a result of the confluence in the early twentieth century, of forces such as nationalism, foreign intervention by Great Britain and France, the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire, the importance of oil to the world's economy, and religious, ethnic, and economic forces of a global nature that impinged on the areas involved. The relevance of the type of genetic and ethnic research to issues of politics is, in my opinion, rather limited. Whatever injustices may have occured in the past have little real importance to the politics on the land today. France and the Roman Empire is my similar example. Or--to select something more recent--the United States and its development at the expense of the native American tribes. I may be misinterpreting unstated premisses of the discussion here. If so, my comments may be ignored. 66.108.105.21 01:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Population Genetics and General Comments