Talk:Naturalistic pantheism

message: Does anybody have a source on the origin of the term "Naturalistic pantheism"? My best research see that it starts to appear in the media and on blogs around 2002. This seams very recent so it is possible that it just got rediscovered.
134.93.128.12 (talk) 10:04, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The origin of the term 

message: I am nominating this article as NPOV.  I just found this article randomly as I was surfing wikipedia and I found that it has:
1) Very little factual description of what Naturalistic pantheism actually is
2) No references to any source material
3) A voice (especially the critique section) that looks a lot like a critique written by someone and not a summary of critiques of others.  I was also supprised that the critique section was longer than the actual description of the religion.
I would say that this article is biased in both directions, both for and against Natural Pantheism, this is not the same as being NPOV.
I can not fix this as I am not an expert on Naturalistic pantheism and am also not a very good writer but I hope someone can fix this article.
bobprime 16:02 26 July 2006 (EST)
I will try to fix this article so it is accurate, well referenced, non POV and non OR. It should not be merged with naturalistic spirituality, which is more of an umbrella term. --Naturalistic (talk) 20:56, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV? 

message: Disagreements of previous contributors aside, this is a pretty good article. While it does spend a lot of time on criticism, Wikipedia has lots of articles with detailed criticisms of traditional theism, and other belief systems, as well. These just have been spun-off into their own articles. RK
:Strange to see us agreeing. I created the page out of the old pantheism article. The author of much of this content doesn't like either of those, nor classical pantheism, and is currently engaged in an extremely protracted (since last Nov., when I first came to the wiki) debate w myself. Just thought I'd give you a bit of background for the heck of it. Feel free to flame me, or reccomend I review back issues of "the humanist" ;) Sam [Spade] 05:14, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: How is it a good article? It doesn't even have complete sentences and all the content bangs on about UPS or WPM instead of just explaining concisely what Naturalistic pantheism is. I suggest this page should just be fused with the main Pantheism page with a redirect. Ultima 22:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Despite a history of controversy ignited by the WPM's appearance as a sect within the UPS and its eventual secession from that organization, the WPM approach has met with some acceptance, even while critics claim it may not actually constitute any strict or authentic or classical pantheism." This sentence makes no sense... how does a theism have authenticity other than how a group of people use a term to describe their belief system? What critics? And I assume the last part should just have the or taken out? Naturalistic pantheism doesn't claim to be classical pantheism, hence the naturalistic prefix? Ultima 22:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Good article

message: The first paragraph of "Criticism and response" seems like original research (if I've got that term right). At any rate, it's not sourced. I'm not sure if this is a problem, given that it's stating some people's opinions, but someone should take a look at it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.237.210.81 (talk) 02:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism and response 

message: This article used to be acceptable about 5 years ago. Since then it has been totally corrupted with inaccurate, unsourced OR and POV material, primarily by critics of this version of pantheism. In its state prior to Feb 2 it was highly misleading. I am undertaking a complete rewrite making this article a worthwhile source, accurate, adequately referenced, and neutral (ie simply describing what it is). --Naturalistic (talk) 22:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fundamental revision 

message: Jon Harder: IMHO this is tidying up taken beyond beyond anything I can find in the suggested Wikipedia rules and policies. People may well want to go straight from Naturalistic Pantheism to the main organization for this form of pantheism. Or, they may want to go to the Wikipedia article about the organization. With only the Wikipedia link, they only have one option. Why should they not be offered both options? Leaving both in gives users greater freedom and more information.--Naturalistic (talk) 00:42, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally Wikipedia prefers linking to its own content whenever possible. If there is something important about the organization, that information can be incorporated into the prose of this article. The link is off-topic here, particularly because there is an article that is more specific to its content, and it is contrary to the WP:ELNO guidelines #1, #13, #19 and possibly #4. Links to promote naturalism-related sites have been added to dozens of articles that only tangentially relate to the topic. Directing users to other websites is not a substitute for writing comprehensive articles. Finally, disputed links should be excluded by default. ✤ JonHarder talk 11:16, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of external links covered by internal links 

message: What is being described in this article is not natural pantheism. People need to stop making up new terms and start checking if a term already exists. In this case, natural pantheism is pandeism and nothing but that. In addition to that, you should know that the "theism" in pantheism implies the existence of an active God while scientists like Einstein rejected this idea. Therefore Einstein was a pandeist.  --Trickymaster (talk) 02:54, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I will consult some religious scholars regarding this term. I'm very convinced that the term was created by the unknowing big media and thus article can be incorporated into pandeism. It could also be a branch of transtheism. I also know a handful of people who would say that naturalistic pantheism is an oxymoron. --Trickymaster (talk) 08:04, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Natural Pantheism is the wrong term. 

message: Out of the four references here:
One is completely independent (re Toland)
One is the top entry in Google searches for Haeckel pantheism.
One is by the vice president of Tor House - a Robinson Jeffers focused foundation
One is from the World Pantheist Movement website - which is a reliable source for what its own beliefs are.
They are all informative and short, descriptive and accurate, there's nothing being promoted here.--Naturalistic (talk) 01:28, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: All of the above have little or nothing to do with what is sourced by scholars as naturalistic pantheism. (Allisgod (talk) 01:38, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  HISTORY SECTION 

message: This official-looking tag inserted by Allisgod is unnecessarily discouraging of new contributions.--Naturalistic (talk) 19:11, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Dennis, I have tried many times here and more so on the Pantheism entry talk page to have a rational discussion with user Allisgod but all I get in return is personal insults, reverts, deletes and attempts to get Naturalistic Pantheism deleted. Allisgod claimed that I invented this term, till I came up with 1800 books using the term. My ideals are neutrality, accuracy, good sourcing and adherence to Wikipedia policies. Sourcing alone is useless if the source is misinterpreted or the selection of sources is biassed. It merely gives a scholarly appearance to inaccuracy.--Naturalistic (talk) 20:28, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *The key is to move forward, you have demonstrated it is notable, you don't need to reprove that point.  Now we just concentrate on defining the subject, forgive the past, move forward.  I'm too involved in deism/theism topics to comfortably act as an admin here (although I get grab one in 2.3 seconds) so my participation is just a fellow editor who isn't an expert on this topic, but wants an article that is worthy of note, highly readable, well sourced and informative.  Let's put personal differences aside, no matter who is wrong or right, and just try to accomplish this together.  Dennis Brown - 2¢  ©  Join WER 20:48, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  MAJOR RESTRUCTURING 

message: This article in its current form does not accurately reflect the various ways in which "naturalistic pantheism" has been used in academic sources. Instead, it mostly reflects a narrow view of this expression from a website (sourced twice). I am going to list every source I have found with the expression "naturalistic pantheism" and invite anyone to help edit the article to better reflect the meaning of this phrase. I will note that the expression is most often associated with Spinoza's philosophy (20 out of 41 sources).
*Smith, Quentin (American Philosopher), “Ethical and Religious Thought in Analytic Philosophy of Language”, 1997; Yale University Press, p 22
:“This differs from naturalistic pantheism, which implies that all is holy and that all ways of living are in accordance with the holy or “the divine,” both good ways of living and morally bad ways of living because each thing, no matter how it lives, is just as much a constituent of the holy as any other thing.  Levine’s pantheism is nonnatural because the holy is identified with a morally good order rather than with the natural universe.”
*A History of Ideas About the Prolongation of Life By Gerald Gruman, MD, PhD (History) Section II Apologism, American Philosophical Society, 1966
:"Naturalistic Pantheism as in Taoism, supports pro longevity because it "breaks down the division between man and gods"
*Sufi Wisdom By Mariėtta Tigranovna Stepani︠a︡nt︠s︡ (Philosophy prof), p 32
:Naturalistic Pantheism: “dissolves God in nature, its maxim being ‘God is all’”
*Is Our Vision of God Obsolete? By G. R. Pafumi, 2010 p 153
:Spinoza = naturalistic pantheism - universe as a "single, interconnected, and solely natural substance."
*Paul Tillich: Theologian of the Boundaries By Paul Tillich (theologian/philosopher), Mark K. Taylor, Mark Lewis Taylor, Collins, 1987 p 165
:Naturalistic pantheism "denies finite freedom" as in Spinoza (as opposed to idealistic type of pantheism which identifies God with the universal essence of being)
*The Immanent Divine: God, Creation, and the Human Predicament By John J. Thatamanil (Theologian), p 142 2006 Fortress Press
:Naturalistic pantheism is negation of freedom; references Tillich and uses his definition
*Panentheism--The Other God of the Philosophers: From Plato to the Present By John W. Cooper (Professor of Philosophical Theology), p 17 2006 Baker Academic
:"Einstein's quip "God does not roll dice" and Carl Sagan's quasi-religious view of the life giving cosmos are popular examples of naturalistic pantheism." Stoics are naturalistic pantheists – “physical universe is ordered and animated by an immanent Logos or divine Reason.  The diversity of nature exists within a single unity.” Quotes Aurelius: “all things are mutually intertwined, and the tie is sacred…For there is both one Universe made up of all things and one God immanent in all things, one Substance, and one Law, one Reason common to all intelligent creatures, and one Truth.”
:Naturalistic pantheism anticipates Bruno, Spinoza, Toland, Einstein (not Schelling, Hegel) Defining God in terms of Nature should not be construed as naturalistic pantheism.  By “Nature” Eriugena means something like “Reality” rather than the mere physical universe. “But his position is in fact closer to the naturalistic pantheism of ancient Stoicism.  The World-Soul is not a higher reality that generates the physical world but the rational causal agent immanent in the world”
*The Middle Works of John Dewey, Volume 2, 1899 - 1925: 1902-1903, Essays on ... By John Dewey (philosopher)
:naturalistic pantheism "identifying God with the forces of nature"
*Goethe, Nietzsche, And Wagner: Their Spinozan Epics of Love And Power By T. K. Seung, p 11
:“The second function of the Earth Spirit was to clarify Goethe’s own version of pantheism.  With the revival of Spinoza’s philosophy, naturalistic pantheism became a groundswell for the German intellectuals of Goethe’s generation.  Although they rejected the other world, many of them subscribed to an idealistic or Romantic view of Nature, which Goethe regarded as an unreal view of reality…”
*Turner, William, (prof of philosophy at the Catholic University) “History of Philosophy”, 1903  p 429
:“Bruno’s philosophy is a system of naturalistic pantheism: its pivotal thoughts are the doctrine of identity of God with the world and the Copernican idea of the physical universe.
:“God, he teaches, is identical with the universe, for the universe is infinite, and there cannot be two infinites.  God is, therefore, the sum of all being, and the phenomena, or accidental forms of being, which exist, are merely the unfolding of the immensity of God.  He is the original matter of the universe, as well as the primitive form, the world-soul, which vivifies the original matter.  Indeed these two, matter and form, not only interpenetrate each other, but are absolutely identical.  God is also the final cause of all things; for to Him, the God-universe, all things are constantly returning.”
:“The universe is, therefore, essentially one: the Aristotelian distinction between celestial and terrestrial matter can no longer be maintained.  The stars are part of our solar system, or are themselves suns surrounded by planets and forming part of the one great system which is the universe.  It is in this portion of his philosophy that Bruno makes use of the discoveries of Copernicus.”
:“The universe is ruled by law: there is no place for human freedom in this system of determinism.   The soul is an emanation from the Divine Universe, and all organisms are composed of living monads each of which reflect all reality.”
*Integrative Theology By Gordon R. Lewis, Bruce A. Demarest
:“In a system of naturalistic pantheism God has been reduced to the factor of order and value within the evolutionary process.”
*The five great skeptical dramas of history By John Owen (theologian) 1896 p 13
:“If he could be said to have owned a master of philosophy it was Spinoza.  Of none other does he speak in such terms of commendation … In all probability Spinoza found his greatest disciple on the road to a naturalistic pantheism.”
*Cogito, Ergo Sum: The Life of René Descartes By Richard Watson, p 64
:“Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake in Rome for professing a naturalistic pantheism and for supporting the heretical Copernican thesis that the earth revolves around the Sun.”
*American journal of theology & philosophy, Volumes 12-13, 1991, p 147
:“Perhaps the best way to denote the position of naturalistic pantheism is to borrow Sankara’s term, non-dualism”
*Nothingness in the theology of Paul Tillich and Karl Barth By Sung Min Jeong University Press of America, 2003, p 24
:“Spinoza establishes a naturalistic pantheism.  Tillich considers Spinoza’s substance as a category”
*George Finger Thomas (prof of religious thought), “Philosophy and religious belief” 1970 p 92
:"“..two forms of pantheism we have distinguished, idealistic monism and naturalistic pantheism.  Here we shall consider only the naturalistic pantheism we have been describing, especially that of Spinoza.”
:“The monism of naturalistic pantheism is necessarily accompanied by determinism”
*The Encyclopaedia Britannica: a dictionary of arts, sciences, and ..., Volume 23 p 299
:“[Boehme’s] speculation turns…into a naturalistic pantheism that denies the reality of the distinction between good and evil.”
*Introduction to philosophy; a handbook for students of psychology, logic ...  By Oswald Külpe (Psychology) p 170
:Naturalistic pantheism: a pantheism which regards external nature as the equivalent of the idea of God.
*Christian Ethics,  By Adolf Wuttke (Theology) 1876, p 289, p 327
:“Spinoza exerted in his own age but little influence.  Notwithstanding the deep spiritually-moral declension of that dark period, the religious God-consciousness was as yet too vital to fall in with this naturalistic pantheism.”
:“Naturalistic pantheism gave validity simply to the objective significancy of the moral, -absolutely annihilated the freedom of the will, and conceived by the moral law as a mere fatalism unalterably determining every individual… [goes on and on]
*The history of European philosophy: an introductory book By Walter Taylor Marvin, Macmillan Company, 1917, p 325
:“Naturalistic pantheism had already made its appearance in the sixteenth century and most notably in the writings of Giordano Bruno; but its most famous teacher was the seventeenth century philosopher Benedict Spinoza.”
*Concepts of Philosophy By Alexander Thomas Ormond, p 593
:"Ernest Haeckel ..develops a species of naturalistic pantheism which might be characterized as Spinozism turned inside out”
*A history of modern philosophy: (From the renaissance to the present)By Benjamin Chapman Burt, p 104
:“naturalistic pantheism of Spinoza”
*History of modern philosophy By Alfred William Benn
:Schelling’s early philosophy – naturalistic pantheism
*The Philosophy of Religion: Spinoza to Schleiernacher By Otto Pfleiderer
:Toland – naturalistic pantheism
*Systematic Theology: A Compendium and Commonplace, Volume 1 By Augustus Hopkins Strong
:“Watts adduces instances of Spinoza’s giving up the form while claiming to hold the substance, and in this way reducing revelation to a phenomenon of naturalistic pantheism.”
*The groundwork of a system of evangelical Lutheran theology By Samuel Sprecher 1879 p 260
:“Naturalistic pantheism gave validity simply to the objective significancy of the moral--absolutely annihilated the freedom of the will, and conceived by the moral law as a mere fatalism unalterably determining every individual..” ...“Or it would result in the naturalistic pantheism which absorbs all divine power into the world..”
*The riddle of the universe By Edward Douglas Fawcett 1893 London, p 30
:“Spinoza carried philosophy into the realms of a naturalistic pantheism.”
*The Catholic encyclopedia: an international work of reference on ..., Volume 2 By Knights of Columbus. Catholic Truth Committee
:“The naturalistic pantheism of the Italian Giordano Bruno…”
*Elements of general philosophy By George Croom Robertson p 282
:“The pantheistic element in Descartes’ thought viz. the tendency to conceive the notion of substance in the truest sence as being only One, and the naturalistic element, viz. the tendency to conceive the One Substance of God as Order of Nature, were brought together and set in the front of Spinoza’s thought as the mother-idea of it all…Spinoza’s philosophy remains as yet and is likely to remain, the very type of a Naturalistic Pantheism.”
*Introduction to philosophy By Friedrich Paulsen, Frank Thilly
:“In Schelling, moralistic pantheism is followed by a naturalistic pantheism … demonstrate[s] the whole of nature as a unified system govered by inner logical and aesthetic necessity, or to reveal the reason inherent to nature.”
*Spinoza and religion: a study of Spinoza's metaphysics and of his particular ... By Elmer Ellsworth Powell
:Spinoza ~ naturalistic pantheism
*Christian philosophy, God: being a contribution to a philosophy of theism By John Thomas Driscoll, Benzinger 1904, p 190
:“In the criticism of his system we meet with the same difficulties that we find in Spinoza, i.e., the nature of the mind and of matter, the character of their interaction and the doctrine of determinism.  Both Spinoza and Spencer teach a pure Naturalism … The two theories set forth are phases of Realistic or Naturalistic Pantheism.”
*The Review of Religion: Volume 5 Raymond Collyer Knox, Horace Leland Friess - 1940
:“This kind of naturalistic pantheism found in Spinoza”
*From the unconscious to the conscious Gustave Géley - 1921
:“Now it is quite certain that the classical naturalistic pantheism, or Monism, does not aid us here. ' This supreme law of Nature,' writes Haeckel…”
*The philosophical theology of Jonathan Edwards Douglas J. Elwood - 1960
:as in Spinoza, is coextensive with the world of objects. His employment of what Tillich calls a "symbolic use" of substance and causality enabled him to overcome both naturalistic pantheism and rationalistic theism.
*Philosophies of History: Meeting of East and West in Cycle-pattern ... Grace Edith Cairns - 1962
:This attitude is close to that of Spinoza's naturalistic pantheism in the West although Spinoza reached it by the more characteristically Western method, rationalism, versus the intuitive way of the Taoists
*GREEK and MEDIEVAL PHILOSOPHY contributions to the development of ... John Paulinus Kenny, O.P., P.h.D. – 1974 p 291
:Bruno's philosophy can be summarized in two words — naturalistic pantheism. He held that God caused the universe and is identified with it. Giordano reasoned that both God and the universe are infinite in time and space.
*The New scholasticism: Volumes 9-10 American Catholic Philosophical Association - 1935
:Bruno taught a system of naturalistic pantheism in which God is the sum of all being, the original matter of the universe.. He likewise applies the tern natura naturata…”
*Science and monism William Persehouse Delisle Wightman - 1934
:The reason for this failure to achieve logical thoroughness may be due to his desire to keep on good terms with the Church, which had shown scant sympathy with the naturalistic pantheism of Bruno.
*Matthew Arnold: Between Two Worlds, AJ Lubell - Modern Language Quarterly, 1961 - Duke Univ Press... Page 5
:"the naturalistic pantheism he then or somewhat later learned from Spinoza"
*St. Thomas and Tillich on the Names of God, JA Martin (Philosophy of Religion prof) - The Journal of Religion, 1957 - JSTOR
:Naturalistic pantheism as defined by Tillich
:That's great Natura. I admire your attention to detail regarding these sources, but I think lumping all the sources into one giant list over-simplifies the issue and implies some sort of grand orthodoxy. The collected quotes contain so much more information than what they have been used for, to the point that we should probably write a new section based on this treasure trove. Note that a long list of sources about  "Spinoza" and "naturalistic pantheism" is not a source for what a phrase is "most often [...] associated with" - that takes a source that says what is predominant. I think the article's structure has become rather confused with separate sections for usage, definition, and another definition. I will try to break this list up into individual sources and parse out which one says exactly what. Good research!--Martin Berka (talk) 17:05, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I like your organization. But the result of this research was the opposite of any kind of grand orthodoxy regarding this phrase. The phrase has been used in many completely different ways and half of them reference Spinoza directly as "naturalistic pantheism", meaning that Spinoza's weight in this article should be higher than being buried in the body. It can be emphasized that the phrase is used in many different ways, but that doesn't mean Spinoza should be removed from the lead when half the sources use him as the primary example of naturalistic pantheism. Also, it is a phrase that is clearly used by academics in "many different ways" and cannot be said to be 'one' specific kind of pantheism. These are ALL the sources I could find using the phrase so feel free to study them. NaturaNaturans (talk) 20:26, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added World Pantheism's views on Spinoza from its website. On another page within that website, he is identified as a panentheist rather than a pantheist. Clearly, by the standards of that group, Spinoza is not a naturalistic pantheist, which must be mentioned given how often Spinoza is called a naturalistic pantheist. The implication is either 1) a demonstration of the extreme variety of ways in which this phrase is used or 2) that World Pantheism's "Naturalistic Pantheism" [capitalized] is a fringe WP:FRINGE view, or 3) that information about World Pantheism should not be on this page and should be considered for a different page altogether, something like: Naturalistic Pantheism of The World Pantheist Movement. My opinion is I think it's fine to be in this article because the contrasting view on Spinoza is helpful to demonstrate how views on this phrase vary, but I do believe a valid argument can be made for the other options as well because on the one hand we're talking about academic uses of a phrase and on the other hand is something akin to a brand name specific to an organization. NaturaNaturans (talk) 21:43, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, my mistake. I thought the massive source was the result of some kind of conflict over the article. With all the summarized information, Spinoza has a generous section. The World Pantheism website is a bit tricky, but I found their article policy. Apparently, Harrison's writing is not an official view of the organization. Unless you want to discuss him specifically, I think they sound fairly generic.--Martin Berka (talk) 21:57, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice edits. Thank you for going through the sources. I didn't know that about their article policy, although it still raises questions. I added that it's their "unique" view of pantheism, but I also want to add quotes around "Naturalistic Pantheism" specifically because the organization capitalizes that phrase as if it's their own rather than as a general term, from what I understand. What do you think? NaturaNaturans (talk) 22:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I've generally understood that philosophies use lower case while religions use capitals. They do seem to treat it more as a religion, and perhaps we could mention the overlap somewhere. I don't know if it's that important - maybe just say they see naturalistic pantheism as a rational religion compatible with science? Otherwise the paragraph gets longer.--Martin Berka (talk) 22:13, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources for Article Improvement/Re-write

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thread_title:  External links modified