Talk:Kadesh (biblical)

message: Why was the readability of this article destroyed in favor of one gigantic reference?
:The article began with an uncited conjecture that Kadesh means holy. Kodesh the word for Holy shares the same root kdsh or Qdsh but so does sacred prostitute (Quedesha). Following that there were a short list of Bible verses, not necessarily the best selection, apparently attempting to locate Kadesh. There are places named  kdsh at either end of Israel so its important to differentiate them with the addition of barneaa.
: The location of Kadesh Barnea isn't a mystery its eleven days journey from Mount Horeb at the head of the Gulf of Aqaba in the Arabah between Edom and Midian in the direction of Mount Seir. That runs up the border of Edom with the Sinai towards the brook of Egypt.
:If there is more you want to add in the form of a narrative I would be delighted to see this article expanded along with the rest of the stations list.Rktect (talk) 18:55, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The root "קדש" means "holy" or "apart" (cf. TDOT 12:521-524) and this is the case in קדשה ("sacred prostitute") also.Nathanael j warren (talk) 03:06, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Readability 

message: The map included in this article has been made by Rktect. It features the place name Horeb close to the bottom of the map (right above Elath). This place name has been inserted by Rktect himself to advance his POV of the Crossing of the Red Sea and the story of Moses on Mt Horeb taking place at the Gulf of Aqaba. The original is Map of Aram on WP Cush (talk) 20:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: I have made a redirect from Ain Kades (Ain Qedeis, Ein El Qedeis, Ain Kadis) to here; but on second thoughts, possibly I should have made it a separate article.
Ain Kades was the present-day place most commonly identified with Kadesh Barnea between about 1880 and 1916.  But it's not the same place as Ain el-Qudeirat, which is where the article's co-ordinates point to, and which is where Kadesh Barnea is now most often identified with.  (Which is why perhaps I should not have made it redirect to here.)
If anyone wants to write up a separate article for Ain Kades, this webpage  has quite a lot of material on how it came into scholarly popularity and then fell out of it again.  That page is part of a quite useful whole mini-website  on Kadesh Barnea and the different things that have been written about it over time; although the website does very much wear its heart on its sleeve, the author writing from a committed Biblical inerrantist point of view, and a conviction that site near Petra is where Kadesh Barnea should properly be located.  Jheald (talk) 22:25, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ain Kades 

message: "Kadesh (Israel)" is utterly misleading! Today it's in Egypt, there are other Kadesh sites in Israel (see Qadesh disambig. page), and in the Bible it's "Kadesh Barnea"! So nothing really fits.Arminden (talk) 17:31, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Rename "Kadesh (Israel)"!!!

message: Time to deal with the basics: ARE WE DEALING HERE WITH SEVERAL PLACES BY THE NAME KADESH?
This question has two aspects:
- Are there two different Kadesh locations in the Exodus narrative, one at the border of Sinai and Negev, one in NW Arabia?
- Is the Kadesh of later episodes (Kingdom of Judea) the same as the Kadesh (Barnea) of Exodus?
If there is no 100% consensus among researchers, we should make that clear a) in the lead, b) separate the possibly different places on the list of biblical quotations, and c) discuss them separately, at least to a point.
More sources needed for this! The comments indicating multiplicity are so far lacking any references at all. We can start with http://biblehub.com/topical/k.htmArminden (talk) 07:30, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps that should be rephrased. We are basically dealing with toponomastics in a primarily mythistorical source. Since the source weaves into one story, the lore, legends and narratives, some grounded in oral remembrances of real events,stemming from several tribal traditions at least. To approach the issue as one of figuring out a presumed historical reality for each name or overlapping toponym is to assume later writers did not harmonize traditions which, in their time, were not accurately understood. You get this in all ancient documents, from archaic Greece to archaic Japan (Yamatai/Yamato). The confusion is caused by nomads or wandering tribes renaming the new areas after place names taken from their old habitations. All one can do is (a) list all occurrences in the Bible (and Egyptian documents etc.) for place names in the south like Qadesh (b)annotate them with what the most recent scholarly commentary on each argues. In any case, there is no probable resolution of the germinal crux, precisely because the confusions are originative.Nishidani (talk) 10:34, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: DIFFERENT places called K. in the South (?)

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Kadesh (Syria) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 01:30, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: I've reorganized a bit, slightly rewritten some things, and so on for the location section. Here's what I'm proposed. User:Davidbena and User:Debresser, does this look decent? It moves the prevailing modern identification to the top of the section instead of burying it four paragraphs in, but I think it does a fair job characterizing the minority view. If anything, it might just slightly undersell the prevailing view (if it weren't for Davidbena's concerns, I would probably place Yigal Levin's "very few modern scholars" language in with reference to the two-site view, but I'll go easy in favor of WP:CONSENSUS here).
:The most common identification of Kadesh or Kadesh Barnea is modern scholarship is with Ain el Qudeirat, with most contemporary scholars seeing the biblical references to Kadesh as referring to a single site. [cite Yigal Levin] [cite de Geus]
:The Bible locates Kadesh, or Kadesh Barnea, as an oasis south of Canaan, west of the Arabah and east of the Brook of Egypt.[6] It is 11 days march by way of Mt. Seir from Horeb (Deuteronomy 1:2). 
:By the late nineteenth century, as many as eighteen sites had been proposed for biblical Kadesh.[7] One source of confusion has been the fact that Kadesh is sometimes mentioned in connection with the Desert of Paran (Numbers 13:26) and at other times with the Zin Desert (Number 20:1).[8] This discrepancy has been noted by commentators as early as the middle ages. Some (e.g. Hezekiah ben Manoah) sought a reconciliatory model, while others (Abraham ibn Ezra and Nahmanides) proposed two separate cites named Kadesh.
:A minority of recent scholars have continued to maintain a two-site theory,[9][10][11][12] with a western Kadesh in the wilderness of Zin, and an eastern Kadesh in the wilderness of Paran, the latter often associated with Petra, Jordan. The two-site theory also appears to have been held by Josephus and Eusebius[13] of Ceasarea.[14] Josephus identifies Miriam's burial site (which the Bible identifies as Kadesh) with Petra. 
:After a period in which researchers identified Kadesh with the similarly-named Ein Qedeis, since 1905 modern Ain-el-Qudeirat in Wadi el-Ain of northern Sinai has been widely accepted as the location of Kadesh Barnea.[15] Several iron age fortresses have been excavated there. The oldest, a small elliptical structure, dates to the tenth century BCE, and was abandoned for some time after its first destruction. A second fort, constructed during the eighth century BCE (probably during the reign of Uzziah) was destroyed during the seventh century BCE, most likely during Manasseh's reign. Two ostraca engraved in Hebrew, dated to the 8th or 7th century BCE, have been recovered there, suggesting Israelite occupation.[16][17]
Regarding Davidbena's concerns, I think this does a fair job of leaving in the existence of the two-site theory and the rationale for it. On the other hand, I think it addresses my and Debresser's idea that the one-site theory should at least feature prominently. Hopefully the balance is good enough that we can get some consensus. Alephb (talk) 20:34, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Just had time to notice that he two rabbis who held that there are two places are not mentioned any more. Debresser (talk) 21:20, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's why I posted it here, so that there wouldn't be objections afterward. What are the names of the rabbis I left out? I'll make sure they get mentioned. Alephb (talk) 21:23, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article mentions Abraham ibn Ezra and Nahmanides. Debresser (talk) 16:49, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then you may want to reread paragraph three of my proposal. They're in there. Alephb (talk) 17:04, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perfect. I missed them 4-5 times. :) Debresser (talk) 17:25, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I probably should have left the bright blue links in. Oh well. Otherwise, does it more or less look all right? Alephb (talk) 17:31, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I got slightly ahead of myself and put it in. If you have any problems with the new wording, I'll revert till we figure something out. Alephb (talk) 17:54, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed reorganization / rewrite of location section