Talk:Illuminati

message: An editor has objected to the inclusion of the term "conspiracy theorists" in this section, on the grounds that the term is "biased".  Please discuss. Blueboar (talk) 12:43, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely support. Conspiracy theorist is more encyclopedic than nutter, but most of the survival myth was, I believe, constructed to make money out of gullible people. I have my own words, all of which would result in an editorial ban. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:06, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

text: Ok i will 103.145.228.126 (talk) 12:01, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

text: The fact that the ideas, concepts, and beliefs espoused by the Illuminati existed after the organization was suppressed is not really important, since they did not invent them.  Those same ideas, concepts and beliefs also pre-date the organization.  The article has lots of links if people want to read more about those ideas, concepts and beliefs.  THIS article is about the organization.  Blueboar (talk) 16:27, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conspiracy theory 

message: "Christians of good character were actively sought, with Jews and pagans specifically excluded, along with women, monks, and members of other secret societies."
Is there a source for their being pagans in 18th Century Bavaria? I find it rather hard to believe, as fascinating as it would be if true.
:My guess is that the word comes from one of the cited sources... note that back in the 18th and 19th century the word "pagan" had a fairly broad meaning, and was commonly used in reference to anyone who was not a Christian (or a Jew?).  Blueboar (talk) 12:19, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It comes directly from the confiscated Bavarian Illuminati documents; INSTRUCTIO PRO RECIPIENTIBUS, specifically: "Jews, pagans, women, monks, and members of other secret orders" were prohibited from joining. In 18th century enlightenment nomenclature the term pagan could equally apply to a muslim a confucianist or what today we'd term an occultist. Basically if you weren't jewish, christian or an atheist, 'pagan' covers everything else. XDev (talk) 17:27, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  18th Century Pagans? 

message: In the very last sentence under the 'in popular culture' section it says "Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco and ." Can someone either get rid of the "and" or add in the other author (if there is any). Phishcat (talk) 21:03, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Blueboar (talk) 21:08, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor grammar edit to page 

message: He should be added on the Popular Culture page. Galefuun (talk) 18:03, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have requested a citation for that.  (also... I think it too trivial to mention, but that is another issue). Blueboar (talk) 22:24, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bill Cipher from Gravity Falls is based on the Illuminati. 

message: This in-depth BBC piece chronicles the deliberate fabrication of the Illuminati myth in the 1960s counter-culture, with reference to published works. Among other important aspects, it says that the 18th-century events are more or less unrelated to the modern tale.  I have not yet incorportated any of this: The accidental invention of the Illuminati conspiracy. Onanoff (talk) 09:18, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Robert Anton Wilson and Discordian literature has indeed contributed toward the myth, but they in turn had embellished upon real sources. The John Birch society, for instance, as well as the writings of Nesta Webster and Lady Queensborough. This tradition was concerned with the Master Conspiracy thesis that an overarching secret society was behind all major incidents since the French Revolution. And they had sources as well: John Robison and Abbe Barruel. It's really an unbroken tradition that goes back to the last two authors who were contemporaries of the Illuminati in the 18th century. In different eras there were varying levels of popularity, but it was always there lurking and publishing material for centuries - material that Wilson et al. made great use of.XDev (talk) 14:32, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the article... it existed for a short time back in the 1700s. Not today. Blueboar (talk) 15:16, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins in 1960s - new source 

message: I have no idea 'gradal' is -- if it is, indeed, a word -- nor what it's supposed to mean.  Not removing it because I don't know what to replace it with.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.207.104.228 (talk) 19:02, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: A system of conferred degrees/grades: gradal system. Put it into quotes and search for its historical context if you are not aware; it's the foundation of Freemasonry and other initiatic societies.XDev (talk) 03:58, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm... While I understand what a "gradal system" is supposed to mean, this query caused me to look further... and I can not find it in any dictionary.  I also did as XDev suggests (I put it into quotes and searched for it in a historical context) and did not find it. So... I have tweaked the sentence, so those who are not already familiar with the topic will better understand.  Blueboar (talk) 13:07, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gradal 

message: * Freemasonry (founded 1701), Isaac Newton, Albert Pike, Illuminati
* International Bankers, Bank of England, Seven Years' War, Rothschild family
* Karl Marx, Communist International
* Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Soviet Union
* Leon Trotsky, Trotskyism
--188.171.58.80 (talk) 13:36, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The majority of those are completely unrelated to those paying attention to reality instead of brainwashing themselves with conspiracy theorist delusions. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:55, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  To add to "see also" 

message: Well so.  those who have Africa experience, the most probable translation of Illuminati is "Cindle, ignite", "set fire to" meaning hammer and pick.
I am experienced and from my point of view there is nothing else to say about it. Wikistallion (talk) 15:12, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, your own experience is not enough... wikipedia’s policies require us to base what we write in our articles on reliable (Published) sources.  So unless there are reliable sources that talk about the Illuminati in relation to Africa, we can not say anything about it. Thanks for sharing, however. Blueboar (talk) 20:38, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illuminati in Africa 

message: Illuminati does not mean "enlightened", in the strictest sense as translated. This definition was assigned to the group who called themselves Illuminati.
Is there a reliable source which explains the origins of the word "Illuminati", and its meaning in context to this article?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.103.216 (talk) 14:21, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Illuminati/Illuminaten means "enlightened ones" - plural; illuminatus: "one of the enlightened". They explain in their rituals that the name descends from the first Christians who were called illuminati when they were illuminated with the holy spirit, i.e. baptized/born again. Church tradition mentions illuminati in this context in Catholicism and Protestantism. XDev (talk) 16:12, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Adding to the confusion is the Age of Enlightenment which wasn't called that until decades after the Bavarian Illuminati had been disbanded, and while similarly named in Italian, the German name for the Age is Aufklärung. EllenCT (talk) 18:58, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illuminati translates to 'light' 

message: I'd like to see a mention of fictional descriptions of Illuminati plots. Illuminati (game) and The Illuminatus! Trilogy are obvious candidates. Ungulates (talk) 00:55, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  In fiction 

message: Change membership mentions of Count Metternich and Count Stadion to:
Klemens von Metternich
Johann Philipp Stadion, Count von Warthausen
They should both be specifically identified given their historical significance, as they are in the sourced material. Strangestlove (talk) 11:41, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Can anyone verify this source? It's in French, so I can't read it even if I have access. There is a reference that Metternich's father was a member (), but I couldn't verify anything else. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 15:08, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here are the Metternichs that were members of the illuminati, per the Gotha Illuminaten Research Projekt: https://database.factgrid.de/wiki/Item:Q767 https://database.factgrid.de/wiki/Item:Q766 https://database.factgrid.de/wiki/Item:Q765 The first link is indeed Klemens' father. His son was a bit too young to be initiated but he swung in the same circles as his father and Illuminati members, papa included, were around him in his youth. He imbibed their enlightenment beliefs. https://database.factgrid.de/wiki/FactGrid:The_Gotha_Illuminati_Research_Base XDev (talk) 01:45, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , that is an SPS, in particular user-generated like Wikipedia. That is not reliable as a source.  JavaHurricane 16:28, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's actually *the* authority in all the world on everything Illuminati related. They have access to all the Illuminaten papers, all the archives - everything. It is a collective of the world's experts on the subject. They are the keepers of all the gold. University of Erfurt. https://database.factgrid.de/wiki/FactGrid:Gotha_Illuminati_Research_Base_Team#Projects_and_Participants XDev (talk) 15:06, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

text:  Want to know exactly who are actually identified members of the Illuminati? The best source since the 1990s was professor Hermann Schuttler's Die Mitglieder des Illuminatenordens, 1776-1787/93 (Munich, 1991). He's part of the collective. It was his research which is the foundation. In his book he went through every archive that had info about the Illuminati and compiled the book with over a thousand members (definitively identified). His database, it turns out, wasn't a database. Just an excel file. Him, his colleagues and his students, entered all his data along with more recent discoveries in the Schwedenkiste Illuminaten archive (which they possess and are processing). On the Swedish Crate's significance see here <https://www.conspiracyarchive.com/2015/07/28/the-so-called-schwedenkiste-swedish-box-the-most-significant-illuminati-archive/>. Here are all the known members of the Illuminati (utilizing the combined data from Schuttler and the Swedish Crate): <https://database.factgrid.de/query/embed.html#SELECT%20%3Fmember%20%3FmemberLabel%20%3FnameLabel%20%3FmemberDescription%20%3Fdate_of_birth%20%3FIO_nameLabel%20WHERE%20%7B%0A%20%20SERVICE%20wikibase%3Alabel%20%7B%20bd%3AserviceParam%20wikibase%3Alanguage%20%22%5BAUTO_LANGUAGE%5D%2Cen%22.%20%7D%0A%20%20%3Fmember%20wdt%3AP91%20wd%3AQ10677.%0A%20%20OPTIONAL%20%7B%20%3Fmember%20wdt%3AP247%20%3Fname.%20%7D%0A%20%20OPTIONAL%20%7B%20%3Fmember%20wdt%3AP140%20%3FIO_name.%20%7D%0A%20%20OPTIONAL%20%7B%20%3Fmember%20wdt%3AP77%20%3Fdate_of_birth.%20%7D%0A%7D%0AORDER%20BY%20(%3FnameLabel)> XDev (talk) 15:20, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

text:  Cannot stress enough: that site and its valuable info is *the* first and last word on everything Illuminati related. Period. You start here <https://database.factgrid.de/wiki/FactGrid:The_Gotha_Illuminati_Research_Base> or you don't start at all. Everything real discovered about the Illuminati comes from them and their sources. They are primary because they have all the primary sources and have been working with it for decades. Clear? XDev (talk) 15:27, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Darren-M talk 12:53, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether FactGrid is the gold standard of Illuminati research or Hermann Schüttler is a peculiar question. Hermann was among those whose data created the database. He has an account on FactGrid, just like Reinhard Markner, Josef Wäges, Martin Mulsow and Markus Meumann... All the leading researchers are on FactGrid. --Olaf Simons (talk) 10:14, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2020 

message: Hi to all! My name is Luis. I'm a spanish professional musician, writer and speaker. I would like to add as an external link (If it's possible) The link goes to a video that lets the users of this page see the actual site and probably the original place where Illuminati from Bavaria make their meetings and where was located the synagogue in Ingolstadt City. Even it's in Spanish, I think it could be useful as a physical way of documentation of the environment and where the place is located in Bavaria, near Munich. Thank you who ever you read it!
This is the code:
* Historia Oculta de la Música en la sede de los Illuminati (Spanish), Video to visit the original building of the illuminati in Baviera. (2020, March) Luismagerit (talk) 18:54, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: We rarely link to self-published sources, additionally the contents of the video may be a bit too specific for this large topic. – Thjarkur (talk) 19:02, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2020 

message: In the main section, add a comma (to properly close the grammatically required pair of appositional commas) after "Bavaria" in this text:
"The Illuminati—along with Freemasonry and other secret societies—were outlawed through edict by Charles Theodore, Elector of Bavaria with the encouragement of the Catholic Church..."
In other words, change 
"outlawed through edict by Charles Theodore, Elector of Bavaria with the encouragement of the Catholic Church"
to
"outlawed through edict by Charles Theodore, Elector of Bavaria, with the encouragement of the Catholic Church"
Thank you. Bearcharts (talk) 14:47, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2021 

message: While it has been thought that the Illuminati did not survive their suppression in Bavaria, it now appears that this may have been incorrect.  Instead of being destroyed in Bavaria, it is claimed on their own websites that they went underground as a result of the aforementioned persecution.
From that moment on they only operated in the hidden background with a great emphasis on secrecy and anonymity.  Now, after hundreds of years of obscurity, the true Illuminati has emerged once again on the world stage and they are openly recruiting, claiming to have millions of members, and
having no need for any funding or profit.  According to the information contained on their three websites, they wield a vast power across the planet, and have indeed been guiding and causing the major historical events traditionally ascribed to them, such as the
formation of a New World Order.  This New World Order is explained in great detail on their Globalism page.
The Illuminati has three websites that we know of, and very likely others which only the initiated can access.  These sites contain a lot of explanation, both historical and contemporary, including an available book called "The First Testament".
* https://illuminatiofficiallwebsite.com/
* https://www.illuminatiofficial.org/
* https://illuminati.am/ Kenbkop (talk) 19:44, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern Existence

message: In their book Secret Societies: Freemasons and Illuminati, Opus Dei and Black Hand, which was published in 2013 as a companion book to a ZDF documentary series on secret societies, the authors Gisela Graichen and Alexander Hesse deal not only with the Freemasons but also with the U.S. student fraternity Skull & Bones. They address conjectures according to which Skull & Bones founder William Huntington Russell is said to have borrowed numerous ritual and symbolic elements of the fraternity he founded in 1832 from student or Masonic organizations in Germany, since he had spent several months in Germany immediately before founding Skull & Bones. The authors hypothesize here that Russell may also have been in Königsberg during his stay in Germany and may then have borrowed his Skull & Bones symbolism from the emblem of the Masonic lodge there, Zum Todtenkopf und Phoenix. 
This hypothesis is processed by the Austrian author David G. L. Weiss in his 2013 novel "Macht", a conspiracy thriller in which Skull & Bones plays a major role. In their research into Skull & Bones' possible (fictional) connections to Prussia, the novel's main character also speculates about a possible connection of Skull & Bones to the Lodge Zum Todtenkopf and Phoenix.
An even more far-reaching conspiracy theory is drafted by the author and ufologist Andreas von Rétyi in his 2004 book Power and Mystery of the Illuminati: According to this, Skull & Bones is the continuation of the Illuminati Order. The number 322 refers in the time calculation of Skull & Bones to the year 1832. In this year Skull & Bones was created, and at the same time the fusion of the lodges to the death head and to the Phoenix took place to the united Johannisloge to the death head and Phoenix. This merger, coinciding with the founding of Skull & Bones, symbolized the demise of the old Illuminati Order in Germany (Todtenkopf) and its resurrection in the USA in the form of Skull & Bones (Phoenix).
https://de.zxc.wiki/wiki/Zum_Todtenkopf_und_Phoenix#Trivia 2A02:8109:25C0:6C8:C8:F17F:6360:C6AB (talk) 15:07, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The article you link isn't from the German-language Wikipedia, it's from 'de.zxc.wiki', though even if it were, it wouldn't have any bearing on content here, since the English and German-language Wikipedias are independent of each other, and have differing policies regarding content.  I very much doubt that we'd consider 'Secret Societies: Freemasons and Illuminati, Opus Dei and Black Hand' as even a remotely reliable source for anything, and ridiculous conspiracy theories about any link between the Illuminati and 'Skull & Bones' are out of scope for our article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:16, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: What you "object" to here is of no interest to anyone. Of course, de.zxc.wiki is an English language mirror of the German language Wikipedia, even if your mind has lost that so far, because you have no idea. The only question is what you want here, if you are against every ridiculous conspiracy theory. https://second.wiki/wiki/zum_todtenkopf_und_phoenix 2A02:8109:25C0:6C8:C8:F17F:6360:C6AB (talk) 15:47, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to make a specific proposal for content to be added to this article, you are free to do so. You won't get very far though unless you can convince people that it is (a) on topic for this article (which is about an organisation that ceased to exist around 250 years ago), and (b) based on material compliant with Wikipedia:Reliable sources. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:55, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Hard to unravel contemporary: What exactly is your personal "mission"? To "save" the world from my contribution at all costs, or to "prove" to me that the English Wikipedia is incomparably more informed than the German one? After all, I seem to have just upset your little world mightily. Even if this is only one of your "Low-importance Germany articles", as a German I might be allowed to comment on it. Btw., high time for an apology, you ... "grump" (or whatever)! One does not simply annoy people for no reason, without paying a tribute for it! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Skull_and_Bones#From_German_Wikipedia   2A02:8109:25C0:6C8:C8:F17F:6360:C6AB (talk) 16:06, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  From German Wikipedia 

message: In many modern conspiracy theories the Illuminati is associated with banks and banking.  This is such a prominent component of this conspiracy theory that I feel this should be expanded upon in this article.  Valgrus Thunderaxe (talk) 16:48, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you point to a reliable source that discusses this? Cullen328 (talk) 16:50, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Banking 

message: Is the Conflict with Rosicrucians section of this article agree broadly with current consensus on the histories of the Illuminati and the Rosicrucians in terms of POV? And is it in need of secondary sources instead of/in addition to René le Forestier's Les Illuminés de Bavière et la franc-maçonnerie allemande? I have also made an entry at the NPOV noticeboard here. Thank you! AnandaBliss (talk) 12:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: They hated each other. Plotted against each other. Yes, it's the consensus because it's true. It's a big part of the Illuminati's history and it was the cause of their downfall. Le Forestier got his PhD on his magnum opus. He consulted all the original writings of the Illuminati and cites archival evidence (correspondences) from the Rosicrucians bragging about the fight they were winning. You're complaining about a point of view because you think somehow that the Rosicrucians are being dissed or something. Check your biases at the door and know something about a subject before you go trashing  an article. XDev (talk) 04:09, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to provide exact page numbers that you desire clarification on, plus the sources Le Forestier cited for his info. Also I've acquired English translations of Weishaupt's accounts on the Illuminati persecution - I've got a 6 month to a year headstart to them before they finally are published. You'll get it from the horses mouth, so to speak. Also will back that up with modern esoteric/masonic/illuminaten experts like Yves Beaurepaire, Christopher McIntosh, Monika Neugebauer-Wölk and Renko D. Geffarth's important monograph "Der Orden der Gold- und Rosenkreuzer als Geheime Kirche im 18. Jahrhundert" (2007). XDev (talk) 18:32, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry to revive XDev, but please do not assign motives to other people's edits, or accuse people of "trashing" an article. From what I can still see, there aren't sources in the article from modern scholars regarding the scope and scale of any conflict/rivalry that may have occurred. The Rosicrucianism article doesn't mention the Bavarian Illuminati at all, which shows a disconnect between the two (which could go either way). My original point, though, is that the source cited for many of the Rosicrucian (and Jesuit) interactions with the Bavarian Illuminati, is René le Forestier's 1914 book Les Illuminés de Bavière et la franc-maçonnerie allemande. In fact, this book seems to be the basis of the bulk of the article, cited around 40 times. The issue I see is, I'm not sure that that book reflects modern scholarly consensus, which could be shown with corroborating sources. AnandaBliss (talk) 15:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC about the Conflict with Rosicrucians Section 

message: I want to improve the article by adding citation. Deeprahul07 (talk) 14:05, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. User:CanonNi (talk|contribs) 14:13, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 5 May 2024 

message: Since there are two secret societies with the Illuminati name Illuminati official and Illuminati brotherhood how The information in the page has any relevance? Illuminati official leader (talk) 10:23, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is only about the Illuminati secret society founded by Adam Weishaupt in 1776, which ceased to function in the 1780s. That is all it is about. Any more recent organisation calling itself 'Illuminati' (of which there have been many) is off topic. None have been given significant coverage in independent published reliable sources, and none, despite their claims to the contrary, have any meaningful connection with Weishaupt's organisation. Most appear to be little more than means to extract money from the gullible. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illuminati page on vikipedia