Talk:Christian mortalism

message: I noticed the additions made by 211.29.236.172.  I don't know who you are or what your name is, 211.29.236.172.  But seems that your latest additions show great bias.  When I began this entry, I was attempting to remain most objective, simply stating the bare facts about the doctrine of soul sleep, and steering clear of any bias, or leaving the observer to decide for himself or herself.  Can I ask why you have imposed your own personal convictions upon this entry, as you have with other entries? Parousia1 01:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I propose that the article be moved (renamed) to "Soul sleep", as this term is more common and more likely to be understood. Arguments, theologians, and denominations could then be clearly labelled as either for or against soul sleep, whereas the term psychopannychism is ambiguous in popular usage, according to the article. --Colin MacLaurin 19:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article title 

message: There is a red wikilink on the page to The Church of God Abrahamic Faith. I believe that this refers to one of two existing articles (or possibly both): Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith) and Church of the Blessed Hope, who say they are different but both can be known as "Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith". Which one of these should the link point to, in other words, which one believes in soul sleep? --Colin MacLaurin 19:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Church of God - Abrahamic Faith 

message: While I was making spelling corrections for the word "rabbinical", I found a misspelling in reference #15.  The original link was broken and the correction of the spelling also leads to a broken link.  If someone knows where the referenced webpage can be found, please direct #15 to it.  Thanks. Aclayartist (talk) 19:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference Link Broken 

message: Would it be possible to use a modern translation for the verses? For instance, the following excerpt uses numerous ancient/extinct words and grammar structures. "yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two" Ansell 09:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Haha, classic. If I don't hear any objections in the next few hours I will change the version used. I presume that these verses are from the KJV. I will try and use the NIV or if anyone doesn't want that version then the NKJV. Cls14 12:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verse references 

message: Just out of interest I have read through all the pros and cons of the argument. Not wishing to put any bias on the item or sit on either side of the fence here I was just wondering how the first con is supposed to disprove soul sleeping? Just purely out of interest! Cls14 11:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  First reference anti-soul sleep 

message: A Seventh-day Adventist theology lecturer told me that "soul sleep" or at least a holistic anthropology is actually the consensus scholarly view, although it is a minority amongst Christians in general. Liberal scholar Rudolf Bultmann was mentioned as the leading example. I hope that these comments can be cited and integrated into the article. Colin MacLaurin 06:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Page Judeo-Christian anthropology created. If you have comments relevant to the new page, please reply there and reserve this page for discussions about soul sleep. Colin MacLaurin 12:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A Christian anthropology page is a great idea. "According to Christians, what is a human being?" Good question with lots of different answers. For this page, Bultmann's view that Paul regarded the person as unified (not dualistic, as in Greeklphilosophy) is worth briefly including as part of a more general discussion about how an image of a unified person coheres with the doctrine of soul sleep. Coincidentally, I have recently been wondering whether Paul advocated soul sleep. Didn't he say that to die in the world is to awake in the Lord (that is, you are not conscious of the intervening period before the resurrection)? Jonathan Tweet 13:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The idea of a name change seems to have been missed? The problem remains that "Soul sleep" is inherently a loaded and pejorative term. Anyway I have added a section Origin of the term.  renaming the page mortality of the soul would seem to be the most neutral term in English, as opposed to pseudogreek coinages like thnetopsychism (someone should check OED to find the first use) In ictu oculi (talk) 08:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name change / new article proposal 

message: I think that this article lacks of the views that scholars have on this subject with references and comments that would shed light on the linguistic and cultural background of the Biblical psychology. I hope that in the near future I would have the time to add some interesting points. One major topic is the nature of the Biblical soul. Another interesting aspect is the history of psychology in Jewish and Patristic thought as regards the immortality of the soul. As regards, now, the English article soul, the diversity of opinions, strongly influenced by dogmatic views, has caused the article to become chaotic.--Vassilis78 13:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a little section about the historical-critical view. Jonathan Tweet 13:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Any references? Any scholarly view?

message: Is soul sleep related to conditional immortality? I suspect that it may be roughly equivalent in modern theology. I have heard that conditionalists such as Edward Fudge, Clark Pinnock etc. also believe in the unconscious state of the dead. It wouldn't surprise me if historically the two notions have been distinct. Please answer. Colin MacLaurin 16:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related to conditional immortality 

message: The section on Contradicting Bible verses contains a line of unsourced and opinionated commentary after each verse.  This violates both WP:OR and WP:NPOV.  Whoever added those unsolicited expressions of his personal opinion is clearly pushing a personal view that soul sleep is the "right" doctrine.  I'll wait a short time then remove the POV commentaries. Freederick (talk) 18:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blatant [[WP:OR|OR]] 

message: I have reworked the list of verses added, removed, reverted a few days ago, in order to try and bring them in line.  Several changes were made, from the version used (almost all of the others were KJV, so i changed the additions) as it surely makes sense not to cherry-pick translations to make a point, to corrections of the references (several referenced verses not actually quoted), to the formating of the verses and the references.  There is still a bit of work to do, and try and integrate all the Bible passages better ~ including removing some which are, IMHO, irrelevant.  At this moment, however, i haven't time, so i'll try a bit later.  Cheers, Lindsay 16:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Supporting Verses

message: I noticed that Isaac Newton is cited as a supporter of this belief/doctrine, but there is no reference. Can one be added by the original drafter? Russell 79.74.244.200 (talk) 18:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, from the article, it's not particularly clear what Newton believed. The section is headed "Famous historical psychopannychites and thnetopsychists have included:" then simply lists Newton's name - without, unlike the other examples listed, any quotes or references to demonstrate his belief - so not only is it unreferenced, but it is unclear whether Newton was a psychopannychite or a thnetopsychist (and there is sufficient difference, in the context of this article which explains both terms separately, that it ought really to be distinguished). A proper reference could clear up both things simultaneously. PetrochemicalPete (talk) 14:14, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Isaac Newton reference 

message: I remeber reading a weird story in which the author claimed to have been a reincarnated angel or archangel. He then described his youth as a form of soul sleep, a prelude to a later re-awakening in adulthood in which he possessed a semi-consciousness of his earlier life. ADM (talk) 08:09, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Reincarnation of angels

message: I propose this article be renamed "Christian mortalism". The leading paragraph states this is the preferred term, at least in modern academic literature.
I previously suggested a move from psychopannychism (sp?) to the present title, as that title was cumbersome and unfamiliar, and reliable sources question the accuracy of that traditional naming. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 13:05, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded - I further propose that if the article is renamed to the academic term that content related to Calvin's tract Psychopannychia and subsequent English translation as "soul sleep" be moved to a separate paragraph entitled "Soul sleep" in quotation marks. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:57, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously. I've been bold. --AuthorityTam (talk) 20:07, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  New article title 

message: Saint Paul merely says dead Christians will come out of the grave and rise into the air to meet the returning Jesus, coming down through the clouds. He doesn't say they all go to Heaven. The final judgment is meant to involve everyone, after which the unsaved go to punishment or anihilation, depending on your interpretation, and the saved share eternal life with Jesus in his Kingdom, which, the early Christians (and modern theologians who base themslves on the original views, like N T Wright) generally thought of as being on this Earth, or maybe a kind of merging together of Heaven and Earth.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orlando098 (talk • contribs) 10:45, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Interpretation section; Saint Paul

message: The article was tagged for lack of references. I have now placed over 60 references in the article, as well as restructuring it. I don't think there's a single outstanding reference now, and would suggest that tag be removed. The article was also tagged for bias in the criticism section. I'm not sure if that section actually exists anymore, but we can work on that.--Taiwan boi (talk) 08:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Tags still necessary?

message: This is getting to the point where common sense should intervene. A repeated deletion of referenced material on this scale after a request for talk has been made is not good Wikipedia practice. And there is no purpose in discussing 2% here or 3% there of what has been deleted before a deletion of this scale is undone. Whether deletion of referenced material on this scale is vandalism or "massive prune", it needs to be undone before getting dragged into details. Thanks In ictu oculi (talk) 05:04, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: St. Anselm, I have to leave the keyboard, but I've just noticed just now one ref, i.e. 1%?, of the dozens of refs deleted restored with the tag line "started to restore references". This isn't how restoring a double deletion of this scale works. It may take you weeks or months to chase up all the text and academic references in the article you deleted and the rest of Wikipedia users shouldn't have to wait for you to go studying sources which you are unfamiliar with. Therefore please restore first your giant deletions, and then go do your reading. This is what everyone else does. Thank you in advance.In ictu oculi (talk)
It seems St.Anselm is not going to repair the deletions, so have restored (I think) about 80% of what was deleted. Some of it is interwoven with other comment so difficult to restore. In particular
(a) Correct information and source texts of Luther restored. ---- I note that even after Ellingsen (who is not an academic)'s misquote he then goes on to say "Luther's more characteristic view, however, was to conceive of death as sleep — as a kind of "soul sleep" (Letter to Hans Luther, in LW 49:270)"... how did that fall out of the reference?
(b) Referenced name Section undeleted:
Seventeenth to eighteenth centuries
Soul sleep was a significant minority view from the eighth to the seventeenth centuries,[77] and soul death became increasingly common from the Reformation onwards.[78]
Those holding this view include: 1600s: Sussex Baptists[79] d. 1612: Edward Wightman[80] 1627: Samuel Gardner[81] 1628: Samuel Przypkowski[82] 1636: George Wither[83] 1637: Joachim Stegmann[84] 1624: Richard Overton[85] 1654: John Biddle (Unitarian)[86] 1655: Matthew Caffyn[87] 1658: Samuel Richardson[88] 1608-1674: John Milton[89][90] 1588-1670: Thomas Hobbes[91] 1605-1682: Thomas Browne[92] 1622-1705: Henry Layton[93] 1702: William Coward[94] 1632-1704: John Locke[95] 1643-1727: Isaac Newton[96] 1676-1748: Pietro Giannone[97] 1751: William Kenrick[98] 1755: Edmund Law[99] 1759: Samuel Bourn[100] 1723-1791: Richard Price[101] 1718-1797: Peter Peckard[102] 1733-1804: Joseph Priestley[103] 1765: Francis Blackburne[104]
(c) have tried to restore other bits, but because am more familiar with 16th-19thC have concentrated on that.
In ictu oculi (talk) 00:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

text: I have all the information on file, so I can restore anything which is missing.--Taiwan boi (talk) 01:19, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Please restore the article, then discuss/challenge specific refs

message: Certain editors have imagined that Jehovah's Witnesses believe immortality hinges on whether a being's body is spirit or flesh; JWs don't actually believe that. JWs believe the Bible to teach that immortality is a gift given specifically by God to specific individuals totalling 144,001 (the "1" is Jesus), each of whom then has an unending energy source within himself. Aside from immortals, JWs believe the Bible to imply that all other intelligent creatures can and will die unless they receive regular 'energy boosts' from God. Thus, JWs believe a person who lives 800 or 900 years is still mortal; JWs believe a person is not immortal just because his death isn't imminent. JWs believe mere separation from God eventually results in death, whether or not any particular sin was committed by the angel or human.So, the editors' oversimplifications about immortality might be enough to satisfy themselves, but Wikipedia will not insist on propagating untrue ideas about JWs beliefs on immortality. Editors should be more interested in a quality encyclopedic article.--AuthorityTam (talk) 19:16, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: By all means update the relevant article on JWs Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation if it needs it. I don't think anyone intends to be "propagating untrue ideas about JWs beliefs on immortality", this is a talk page, we're talking. Cheers In ictu oculi (talk) 19:43, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

text: No one is propagating false ideas about the JWs. Being encyclopedic means we don't make this article conform to fringe definitions. The JW definition of "immortal" will not be used here.--Taiwan boi (talk) 04:03, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Christianity has long entertained many and significant theological differences about exactly what immortality entails, and many (most?) of those differences precede Jehovah's Witnesses. Editors should simply know that it would be inaccurate to characterize JWs as believing that those who live forever on earth are immortal. See Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation.--AuthorityTam (talk) 16:58, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: JW issue NOT ethereal v corporeal

message: St Anselm - re your deletion of Ellingsen ref which you yourself provided. Your comment to the deletion is "→Ninth to sixteenth centuries: It is not for us to say that Ellingsen or Schewe are misquoting! Better to remove the quotes altogether) (undo)". It may not be for you (with or without exclamation mark "!") to say that Mark Ellingsen is misquoting if you have cannot read the source given in the article from In primum librum Mose enarrationes. However for anyone who can read the ref it is for them to say that Ellingsen is misquoting Luther. If you want to challenge/delete this please first go to your local library, consult an English translation of Luthers Werke and then compare it with the quotation from the author of When Did Jesus Become Republican?. In the meantime your ref from Ellingsen is a perfect example of exactly what professor Fritschel was talking about in 1867. Please restore your ref. deletion.In ictu oculi (talk) 18:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Incidentally since making the above comment I found an English translation of In primum librum Mose enarrationes (Henry Eyster Jacobs' English translation from 1898) and it follows the Latin accurately. If an 1898 version is accurate one assumes that the 1957 Fortress/Logos version is accurate too. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:04, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Another ref deleted, why?

message: Before making a formal merger proposal.... Currently there is almost no content on Christian conditionalism which is not duplicated on Christian mortalism. There is also no documented distinction of how/when/if Christian conditionalism and Christian mortalism are distinct (i.e. a group holds one but not the other). The Christian Hope p116 Brian Hebblethwaite - 2010 (The Reverend Canon Brian Leslie Hebblethwaite, philosophical theologian, was born in Bristol, England, on 3 January 1939) says "Conditionalism is the view that human beings, although created mortal, acquire the capacity to receive immortal life,". Soul sleep/Mortalism also believes that - at the resurrection. In what way does any group distinguish the endowment of immortality at any other point than that envisaged by Luther and Tyndale? In ictu oculi (talk) 11:53, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it may be a good idea so long as redirects are kept.  Allenroyboy (talk) 17:12, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible suggested merge from Christian conditionalism

message: We have a lot of definitions kicking around here, and I thought it might be good to draw up a table comparing them. I've used "saved"/"unsaved" terminology, which isn't ideal, but I trust things are clear. This table isn't necessarily for inclusion in the article, but to see if we agree on the fine distinctions between all the words. So - is it accurate?
                       	SavedBefore Judgement Day                                	UnsavedBefore Judgement Day          	SavedAfter Judgement Day	UnsavedAfter Judgement Day
Annihilationism        	Conscious existence,Unconscious existence orNon-existence	Unconscious existence orNon-existence	Conscious existence     	Non-existence
Conditional immortality	Conscious existence orUnconscious existence              	Unconscious existence orNon-existence	Conscious existence     	Non-existence
Christian mortalism    	Unconscious existence orNon-existence                    	Unconscious existence orNon-existence	Conscious existence     	Conscious existence orNon-existence
Soul sleep             	Unconscious existence                                    	Unconscious existence orNon-existence	Conscious existence     	Conscious existence orNon-existence
Psychopannychism       	Unconscious existence                                    	Unconscious existence                	Conscious existence     	Conscious existence orNon-existence
Thnetopsychism         	Non-existence                                            	Non-existence                        	Conscious existence     	Conscious existence orNon-existence
StAnselm (talk) 22:13, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Authority Tam. No, I personally don't see that your move needs to be reverted, on the contrary I support it, it takes the article from what was even in Calvin's day a loaded term to the current academic term. Re above, perhaps, but Bible verses are not sources. No, I agree "unconscious" and "dead" are not synonyms, but again the actual article text needs to be anchored in real historical primary sources, and not semantics among 18th/19th/20thC commentators all describing the same thing with different words. ...Or indeed semantics derived from sources such as John of Damascus (denouncing the views of Arab Christians as believers in "soul-death), or Eustratios of Constantinople denouncing "hypnopsychism", etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:39, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Table of terms regarding the intermediate state

message: Incidentally, American English generally dispenses with the hyphen ("-") between non and the term being dichotomized.
Just as "unconscious" and "dead" are not synonyms, so too, "existence" and "nonexistence" are not synonyms. It seems quite simple to distinguish between "existence" and "nonexistence", since one exists and the other does not.That is why (perhaps the only reason why) the term "soul sleep" was mildly useful: as an umbrella term for both psychopannychism and thnetopsychism. I had used Christian mortalism as nearly synonymous with soul sleep, but if that is incorrect than my move should be reverted.Oh, and it should perhaps be clarified that thnetopsychists generally hold that a thing which exists only in thought or memory doesn't literally "exist" but can be brought into literal existence divinely (compare Proverbs 10:7 and Romans 4:17)--AuthorityTam (talk) 17:24, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Authority Tam. No, I personally don't see that your move needs to be reverted, on the contrary I support it, it takes the article from what was even in Calvin's day a loaded term to the current academic term. Re above, perhaps, but Bible verses are not sources. No, I agree "unconscious" and "dead" are not synonyms, but again the actual article text needs to be anchored in real historical primary sources, and not semantics among 18th/19th/20thC commentators all describing the same thing with different words. ...Or indeed semantics derived from sources such as John of Damascus (denouncing the views of Arab Christians as believers in "soul-death), or Eustratios of Constantinople denouncing "hypnopsychism", etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:39, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Existence v nonexistence

message: St. Anselm, I see you are back, with more wholesale deletions of footnote references from the article, despite repeatedly having been asked not to go deleting footnote references. These aren't generally refs/sources I've put in by the way, but I was the previous edit so I won't undo - yet. I see your reason given for this (not here where discussion has been, but on the history view) "Modern scholarship: pruning the quote farm - there was some awful copy-and-pasting here, probably in violation of copyright" .... Question: How would footnotes be in breach of copyright? For example (picked at random, I don't have time to look in detail at what you've done), why have you deleted this:
::The idea of a distinction between the soul, the immaterial principle of life and intelligence, and the body is of great antiquity, though only gradually expressed with any precision. Hebrew thought made little of this distinction, and there is practically no specific teaching on the subject in the Bible beyond an underlying assumption of some form of afterlife (see immortality)., Cross & Livingstone, (eds.), ‘The Oxford dictionary of the Christian Church’, p. 153
In ictu oculi (talk) 01:51, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The example you give is a good example of one that needs to be deleted, or at least pruned - the "(see immortality)" is a clear copy-and-paste from an encyclopedia, and has no place in Wikipedia. But the biggest problem is the claim the article currently makes: "A scholarly consensus has been reached that the canonical teaching of the Old Testament is unconsciousness subsequent to death, until resurrection.[140][141][142][143][144][145][146][147]" None of the footnotes make this claim: the only one that makes any claim to consensus is Donnelley, who says "Twentieth century biblical scholarship largely agrees that the ancient Jews had little explicit notion of a personal afterlife until very late in the Old Testament period." (BTW, this quote has very poor referencing - is it a book? a journal article?) Anyway, I made sure that I kept that in, and put it in the article. If you think that the sum total of footnotes 140 to 147 add up to consensus - then I believe you are engaging in synthesis of published material that advances a position. Likewise, footnotes 149 to 158 do not support the statement "The majority of standard scholarly Jewish and Christian sources today describe the Biblical view of the state of the dead in terms identical or very close to the mortalist view." Not even close. There may be a lot of footnotes there, but they do not constitute a majority of Jewish and Christian sources. And none of the quotations even mention the mortalist view. Anyway, I'm tagging the section. StAnselm (talk) 04:01, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a valid reason for deleting refs At a brief look it seems [140][141][142][143][144][145][146][147] were representative of a broad range of academic/mainstream sources and not 8x sources from 1 denomination, so particularly when one of them says "largely agrees" deletion of refs because they support the first(Donnelly?) seems capricious. I do not know of a Wikipedia rule that says after a comment describing a "majority" OWTTE view only 1 ref can be added.In ictu oculi (talk) 12:57, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

text: In answer to your question, "How would footnotes be in breach of copyright?" the answer is given at Wikipedia:Copy-paste: "Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea. Copyrighted text must be attributed and clearly marked as a quote. Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited even if correctly cited." Thus, there is a violation if (a) the attribution is poor (which is the case with several footnotes in this article, (b) the quotations are too long (and again, with several footnotes in this article, I believe that to be the case, or (c) the quotations are unnecessary (you don't need several footnotes all saying the same thing - and you can't establish consensus by multiplying footnotes anyway). StAnselm (talk) 04:14, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a valid reason for deleting refs - to any reader " " marks after an author-title-publicationdate-pageno qualify as "clearly marked as a quote" (case in point, no?). How else would a quote be marked. As for "the quotations are too long", based on my impression of the general standard of unreferenced POV and out of context refbending in Christianity related articles in Wikipedia. Hurrah. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:57, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: More giant ref deletion

message: For clarity (for myself if no one else) just inserting the paragraph that all the below is about:
::Unbalanced scales.svg The neutrality of this section is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (January 2011)
As early as 1917 Harvey Scott could write "That there is no definite affirmation, in the Old Testament of the doctrine of a future life, or personal immortality, is the general consensus of Biblical scholarship.".[140] The modern scholarly consensus is that the canonical teaching of the Old Testament made no reference to an "immortal soul" independent of the body.[141][142][143][144] This view is represented consistently in a wide range of scholarly reference works.[145][146][147][148][149][150] Philip Johnston argues that a few Psalms, such as Psalm 16, Psalm 49 and Psalm 73, "affirm a continued communion with God after death," but "give no elaboration of how, when or where this communion will take place."[151] A review of nine standard scholarly Jewish and Christian sources[152] shows that the majority of them describe the Biblical view of the state of the dead in terms identical or very close to the mortalist view.[not in citation given][improper synthesis?][153][154][155][156][157][158][159][160][161][162]
<Insertion of article text ends here. No comment. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: StAnselm, First of all it needs to be acknowledged that you have a theological interest in suppressing certain properly sourced material on this subject. Let's be honest about why you're editing here. 1. I see no Wikipedia ruling which says that copy/pastes from standard reference sources have no place here. Quite the opposite in fact. Nor do I see any "extensive quotation" here, only one quotation per source. 2. If you see an inadequately referenced citation, the correct response is to verify it and improve it, not delete half a page of citations. 3. What is wrong with the Donnelley referencing? It's in the same format as the rest, and is easily found (it's a monograph published by Brill). 4. Relevant consensus statements cited include:
* "Twentieth century biblical scholarship largely agrees that the ancient Jews had little explicit notion of a personal afterlife until very late in the Old Testament period. Immortality of the soul was a typically Greek philosophical notion quite foreign to the thought of ancient Semitic peoples. Only the latest stratum of the Old Testament asserts even the resurrection of the body, a view more congenial to Semites.', Donelley, 'Calvinism and Scholasticism in Vermigli's doctrine of man and grace", p. 99 (1976) 
* "Modern scholarship has underscored the fact that Hebrew and Greek concepts of soul were not synonymous. While the Hebrew thought world distinguished soul from body (as material basis of life), there was no question of two separate, independent entities. A person did not have a body but was an animated body, a unit of life manifesting itself in fleshly form—a psychophysical organism (Buttrick, 1962). Although Greek concepts of the soul varied widely according to the particular era and philosophical school, Greek thought often presented a view of the soul as a separate entity from body. Until recent decades Christian theology of the soul has been more reflective of Greek (compartmentalized) than Hebrew (unitive) ideas.’, Moon, ‘Soul’, in Benner & Hill (eds.), ‘Baker encyclopedia of psychology & counseling, p. 1148 (2nd ed. 1999)"
I will add more and rephrase this section.--Taiwan boi (talk) 07:11, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

text: Taiwan boi, I find your accusations of bad faith disturbing. I did not "delete" half a page of references - I reduced the number of footnotes in the section from 19 to 10, but I expanded the section from three sentences to a couple of paragraphs. You will note that I kept the Donnelley quote - indeed, I promoted it to the main body of the article - and let it say what it said. It doesn't say that "a scholarly consensus has been reached that the canonical teaching of the Old Testament is unconsciousness subsequent to death, until resurrection". It says that "Twentieth century biblical scholarship largely agrees that the ancient Jews had little explicit notion of a personal afterlife until very late in the Old Testament period." Those two statements are not the same at all. Finally, I'm very sorry you can't see what's wrong with the format of the Donnelley reference. Please consider using the "cite" template to include all the necessary bibliographic information. StAnselm (talk) 07:26, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. You have a long way to go before you establish good faith with regard to this article. Your edits have been systematically and consistently aimed at opposing inclusion of standard scholarship which disagrees with your church's POV, and your removal of slabs of citations in this case is another example of such conduct. That's how you started your recent involvement with this article, by removing material which just so happens to contradict your theological view. 2. I see you're now changing your comment about the Donnelley referencing, but you still haven't addressed the fact that it is cited the same way as the other references, and is cited sufficiently for verifiability. If you want to reformat the citations with a template, go right ahead. 3. The Donnelley quote does support what was written, but since you believe that "Twentieth century biblical scholarship largely agrees that" doesn't say that there's a scholarly consensus, then I suppose you won't see that. By the way, since I'm still editing the article you could at least wait until I've finished before throwing around more citation tags.--Taiwan boi (talk) 07:51, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Next question, out of the following works which do you claim are not standard scholarly Jewish and Christian sources: Harper's Bible Dictionary (1st ed. 1985), New Bible Dictionary (3rd. ed. 1996), Encyclopedia of Judaism (2000), New Dictionary of Theology (2000), Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible (2000), The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia’ (rev. ed. 2002), The Encyclopedia of Christianity’(2003), The Oxford dictionary of the Christian Church’ (3rd rev. ed. 2005), The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible (rev. ed. 2009). Once you've done that you can demonstrate why you believe the majority of them don't support the position attributed to them.--Taiwan boi (talk) 07:55, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. I don't know what you mean by me changing my comment about the Donnelley referencing. 2. I would have thought it was customary to remove tags after one has fixed the problem, so I don't think you can object to me adding them back in while you're still editing the article. 3. The main issue is what there is a consensus about - you are paraphrasing the quote to a large degree, and are saying something quite different to what Donelley is saying. 4. The works you mention are indeed standard scholarly sources - the question is whether they "describe the Biblical view of the state of the dead in terms identical or very close to the mortalist view." And really, to say that they do is only your opinion, and thus original research. StAnselm (talk) 08:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. First you claimed the Donnelley reference was insufficient for verifiability, then you claimed it wasn't in the right format. 2. My edits were twice blocked by you fooling around with citation tags while I was in the middle of editing the article; you were adding querolous tags. 3. Go ahead and show me that I'm saying something very different to what Donnelley is saying. 4. After the article has described mortalism in detail, can you seriously claim that the sources quoted do not describe Biblical teaching on the state of the dead in terms close or identical to mortalism? I realise that it hurts that your church's position on the subject has been dismissed as an archaic relic of theological fantasy, but you can't suppress the scholarly consensus.--Taiwan boi (talk) 08:39, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The Donelley reference was always insufficient to verify what was being said, though the article has changed now. The statement it was supposed to verify said "A scholarly consensus has been reached that the canonical teaching of the Old Testament is unconsciousness subsequent to death, until resurrection." It actually says "Twentieth century biblical scholarship largely agrees that the ancient Jews had little explicit notion of a personal afterlife until very late in the Old Testament period." It seems that Donelley is suggesting that 20th century biblical scholarship does sees an explicit notion of a personal afterlife occurring late in the Old Testament period - though the quote doesn't say whether or not this is after the close of the canon. But Donelley does not say the teaching of the OT is unconsciousness subsequent to death, until resurrection. One could equally interpret Donelley's reading of the consensus as excluding belief in a resurrection as well. It's certainly a relevant quote, but let's not make it say more than it does. Some of the OT scholars will focus on the ambiguity regarding resurrection (e.g. Gillman in footnote 148), and not necessarily have the "intermediate state" in mind at all. StAnselm (talk) 09:35, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

text: And yes, I can seriously claim the sources quoted do not describe Biblical teaching on the state of the dead in terms close or identical to mortalism. For you to assert this is original synthesis. StAnselm (talk) 09:37, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Toooo complicated.. but whatever not a valid reason for deleting refs - just to come back to the main point. As far as I can St.Anselm see the reasons given above don't stand up for the example I picked at random: Cross & Livingstone, (eds.), ‘The Oxford dictionary of the Christian Church’, p. 153. This and the above response, plus the scale of deletions, plus the fact that this is the second wholesale deletion of refs on this article, suggest to me that all the refs should be restored, and a case by case argument made for individual deletions/amendations. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:08, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

text: 'But, in fairness to StAnselm, that Modern scholarship paragraph seems to be focussed on the OT only. Presumably "modern scholarship" has no such consensus re the NT? The paragraph should have a line noting that, if so. I guess it's so?13:20, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

text: Doug's opinion is useless until he has actually read what I wrote, which he clearly hasn't (he refers to them as "websites", when none of them is a website). I have asked him to clarify. I am going to edit the text to make it even more explicit as well. I'm afraid sectarian suppression of this information is not going to happen.--Taiwan boi (talk) 04:24, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern scholarship paragraph

message: Can someone with time check please In ictu oculi (talk) 02:00, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Coming back to this: I'm finding it difficult to compare the Dec3rd 2010 deletions with the current article. But from what I can see I myself did restore most of the 17th-19th Century historical refs which were removed. However, there is material in the refs themselves that probably should be in the main text. I was surprised to see that the Archbishop of Dublin was mentioned (misspelled) in a ref, but not referenced "Whately (1829)" in the main text. Just a suggestion. The main thing is that I believe that most of the 17th-19th Century historical refs have been restored.In ictu oculi (talk) 02:48, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Were St. Anselm's earlier Dec 3 2010 ref. deletions restored?

message: Time for it to go I believe.--Taiwan boi (talk) 17:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for addressing the OR issue. The section is a whole lot better. There are still major problems with this article - in particular, the article focuses on who believes in mortalism rather than on why they believe in it. It's talking more about people than ideas. That's why I'm glad we expanded the "modern scholarship" section. I'm still not altogether with the equating mortalism with belief disbelief in an immortal soul - I realise you have citations supporting that definition, but it's not universal - and it's not the definition in this article's lead. So to cite sources supporting mortalism when all they are doing is critiquing the idea of an immortal soul is somewhat slippery. It is quite possible to believe that some souls experience conscious bliss between death and resurrection, while other souls die. StAnselm (talk) 21:38, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: (sorry to drop into conversation) St.Anselm regarding this point: "conscious bliss between death and resurrection" is conscious bliss between death and resurrection, i.e. Calvin's view, not Luther's view. There may well be a hybrid form of Calvin's belief which believes exactly as you say, combining annihilationism for some souls and "conscious bliss between death and resurrection" for others, but in order to mention such a hybrid belief a notable individual or movement needs to be identified, sourced and referenced.In ictu oculi (talk) 00:56, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

text: Oh, and what I am saying is that the tag needs to remain. I don't believe you've dealt with the dictionary references in a neutral way. StAnselm (talk) 21:40, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. What is not neutral about the dictionary references? 2. I'm happy to provide more details on why mortalists believe as they do, as long as you don't respond by simply deleting them all. 3. I certainly have not equated mortalism with the belief in an immortal soul. Please read what I wrote. Nor have I equated mortalism with the disbelief in an immortal soul. I have simply noted that disbelief in a naturally immortal soul is a mortalist belief; "The mortalist disbelief in the existence of a naturally immortal soul". This is a simple fact. The definition in the lede, "Christian mortalism is the belief of a minority of Christians that the human soul is uncomprehending during the time between bodily death and Judgment Day resurrection", is not only unsupported by any citations but is not accurate. Christian mortalism (not "Christian unconsciousism"), is the belief that humans are not naturally immortal; they are conditionally immortal. That's why it's also called "Christian Materialism", and why it has been suggested that this article be merged into "conditional immortality". There is absolutely nothing "slippery" about the use of the citations. I noted that disbelief in a naturally immortal soul is a mortalist belief, and I noted a wide range of scholarly sources which acknoweldge that this is Biblical teaching.--Taiwan boi (talk) 13:26, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, "belief in an immortal soul" was a typo. What I mean by the neutrality issue - and it is neutrality rather than original research - is that it looks like those dictionary articles are supporting mortalism, whereas it's just one aspect of mortalism that lots of non-mortalists would hold to as well. In other words, the section is unbalanced. But the lead was fine when the article was about soul sleep - there's a distinction between mortalism and soul sleep that has now been blurred. StAnselm (talk) 20:40, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The dictionary articles are being represented as supporting one belief held by mortalists, not as agreeing that mortalism is true. If you believe that non-mortalists also agree that there is no such thing as an immortal soul, then please show me the evidence (by the way, soul sleep is a mortalist belief).--Taiwan boi (talk) 02:40, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

text: I'm going to give this one more day, then remove the tag.--Taiwan boi (talk) 04:24, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I still dispute the neutrality of the section. The statement "The mortalist disbelief in the existence of a naturally immortal soul is also affirmed as biblical teaching by various modern theologians" is backed up by none references, which looks impressive, but it's not at all obvious that all (or any) of those writers have mortalism in mind. This is simply not a balanced discussion of how modern scholarship pertains to mortalism. Please don't remove the tag without making the section neutral and balanced. StAnselm (talk) 04:37, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You are not reading what the paragraph says. The sources quoted are discussing the existence of a naturally immortal soul. It is not claimed that they are discussing mortalism. It is claimed that they are discussing the existence of a naturally immortal soul. Do you agree that this is what is claimed? Do you agree that this is what the sources are discussing?--Taiwan boi (talk) 05:31, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: So, what's the problem again?
In the absence of any further objections after two weeks, I have removed the tag.--Taiwan boi (talk) 06:03, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: POV tag

message: "among medieval era rabbis such as Isaac of Nineveh (d.700)" - I understand the idea that Isaac believed in soul sleep, but calling him a rabbi? On what authority?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_of_Nineveh
Isaac of Nineveh (died c. 700) also remembered as Isaac the Syrian and Isaac Syrus was a Seventh century bishop and theologian best remembered for his written work. He is also regarded as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church. 
He was christian theologian, bishop and a saint. I doubt he was a rabbi following Jewish laws.--Otherguylb (talk) 04:56, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: He has probably been confused with Isaac ben Meir, who was a medieval rabbi.--Taiwan boi (talk) 12:38, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Medieval Rabbi - Issac Nineveh? 

message: Hi editors, would anyone kind tell me why Immortality of the soul redirects to this article? I believe such an article existed before but it was redirected. Thanks. Tamsier (talk) 21:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Immortality of the soul : Why does it redirect here? 

message: I added a section describing the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.  I am not an experienced editor, so it is very rough. I am open to feedback, especially on the appropriate way to cite the relevant scriptures.
Terrel Shumway (talk) 16:58, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latter-Day Saint beliefs 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Christian mortalism's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "bauckham":
From Annihilationism: Richard Bauckham, "Universalism: a historical survey", Themelios 4.2 (September 1978): 47–54.
From Universal reconciliation: Richard Bauckham, "Universalism: a historical survey", Themelios 4.2 (September 1978): 47–54.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 22:35, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Christian mortalism]] 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Christian mortalism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130508152506/http://www.stmaron.org/The_Maronite_Voice_for_December_2011.pdf to https://www.stmaron.org/The_Maronite_Voice_for_December_2011.pdf
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article seems to discuss what seems to me to be two distinct issues:
# 
#  immediately after death.
While I understand that these views are related. I think they should be split into different articles. What do others think? Daask (talk) 16:37, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article scope: Soul sleep and mortality of the soul 

message: Can someone who’s knowledgeable about Wikipedia add the links “Conditional Immortality” and “Soul in the Bible” to this article?? It’s time that this article gets a little more improved!! SassyForAReason (talk) 15:44, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Easy enough, added Soul in the Bible to the see also section, created a wikilink to Conditional Immortality in the body of the article. If anyone has an issue with that they can feel free to revert me. Greyjoy talk 15:49, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding Links to Related Articles 

message: I’ve added more arguments for Christian Mortalism and added info to the introduction paragraph. I copied and pasted them from three different Wikipedia articles, “Conditional Immortality,” “Last Judgment,” and “Christian Anthology.” I’ve also used the term “soul sleep” throughout the article since I think that Jehovah Witnesses and Seventh-Day Adventists use it. Any improvement would help. Thanks. 😊❤️🙏2601:407:C400:733:DDFF:1FA5:686C:B37A (talk) 23:57, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  I’ve added more information for Christian Mortalism