Talk:Health of Charles Darwin

message: If anyone wishes to do further research I suggest this would be one of the most current sources of information and from a knowledgeable source:
Colp R.,  To be an invalid, redux.  J Hist Biol. 1998 Summer;31(2):211-40 .
An anonymous user is consistently defacing Charles Darwin's illness article with lots of irrelevant material copied directly from creationism sites. I have put a NPOV warning on the article because of this and wil submit it to a vote in the community if he insists. He is turning a previously well-balanced and medical view into a rambling of religion and science which I find that cannot fit well in the article. --R.Sabbatini 20:19, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 28.205.191.56

message: The conciseness and clarity of this article was suffering from repeated and surplus text, and excessive POV. I've revamped it and will recommend removal of the VfD notice...dave souza 18:03, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Revamp

message: This article survived a Vote for Deletion. The discussion can be found here. -Splash 04:20, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote for Deletion

message: Article Title: Darwin: The Life of a Tormented Evolutionist, By Adrian Desmond and James Moore
Purpose: To review the book
Author: Ernst Mayr, Ph.D.,  Harvard University, Cambridge, MA 02138 
Citation info: New England Journal of Medicine, Volume 328:816  March 18, 1993  Number 11 
Quote: "The authors deserve special praise for abstaining from rehashing long-refuted speculations, such as the theory that Darwin had Chagas' disease (although he was indeed bitten by the triatoma bugs in Argentina) or the psychoanalysts' claim that his symptoms were due to a conflict with his father."
taken from: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/328/11/816
ken 15:56, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Prestigious New England Journal of Medicine weighs in

message: I'm no expert. But the vagueness and multiplicity of the symptoms - malaise, vertigo, dizziness, muscle spasms and tremors, vomiting, cramps and colics, bloating depression etc.- is similar to that described by celiac disease sufferers.  With celiac it is usually difficult for sufferers to establish a causal relationship because of the ubiquity of the offending grains in the diet (I imagine this could also be the case in Darwin's time)  and it may take several years of misdiagnosis -hypochondria, depression, lyme etc to arrive at the correct one. Gomez3000adams 05:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, it's an interesting speculation but of course we can't add original research to the article, and would need a verifiable source directly relating the diagnosis to Darwin. Ta again, .. dave souza, talk 09:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes of course, this probably isn't the correct forum to post such speculation. I'm merely shooting in the wind hoping some more astute researcher might explore the angle Gomez3000adams 17:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coeliac? 

message: The section on Darwin's religious views makes no mention of how religion might have caused his disease, so I don't see why it should be in this article.  While interesting, there is already an article on Darwin's religious views.  Unless serious objections are voiced, I'm inclined to remove that section.  OcciMoron 15:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that Gomez3000adams (talk) 17:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion is relevant? 

message: Friends, the information in this article at present on Darwin's experiences with Dr. Gully deserve more detail.  As you will see, I have gathered [WP:RS]] and [[WP:V] information.  I hope that others will work with me to integrate this information within the article.  
Although Charles Darwin was only 39 years old in November, 1848, he was so ill that he couldn't attend his own father's funeral. In March, 1849, Darwin himself acknowledged that he was unable to work one day in every three, and further, he felt that he was dying. He said this specifically, "I was not able to do anything one day out of three, & was altogether too dispirited to write to you or to do anything but what I was compelled. I thought I was rapidly going the way of all flesh." 
Darwin’s cousin, [William Fox], recommended that Darwin seek out the care of Dr. [James Manby Gully], an author of a popular book on water-cure.  Although Darwin knew that Dr. Gully also prescribed homeopathic medicines, he was skeptical of homeopathy. On March 19, 1849, Darwin wrote, “I grieve to say that Dr Gully gives me homeopathic medicines three times a day, which I take obediently without an atom of faith.”  It is uncertain if water-cure and/or homeopathic medicines had a powerful effect, but something did.  On March 28, 1849, he had not have any vomiting for 10 days (a rare experience for him).  By April 19, 1849, Darwin wrote, “I now increase in weight, have escaped sickness for 30 days, which is thrice as long an interval, as I have had for last year; & yesterday in 4 walks I managed seven miles! I am turning into a mere walking and eating machine.”
Darwin's symptoms of nausea and vomiting returned, and he suffered with varying degrees of intensity from this indigestion throughout his life, though after leaving Gully's clinic, he no longer complained about fainting spells, spots before his eyes, or the degree of fatigue that he had previously experienced.  DanaUllmanTalk 06:18, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for coming back on this, the section could do with considerable filling out. However, as we've discussed elsewhere, your presentation is based on primary sources and breaches WP:NOR in synthesising the argument that homeopathy was particularly significant. This seems unsupported in the light of the similar success of treatment at Dr. Lane's hydrotherapy, and the failure of Dr. Gully's treatment in 1863. The letter when he was 56 cited here seems to contradict your assertion about him no longer complaining about certain symptoms. I've got some relevant secondary sources bookmarked, and hope to return to this subject shortly. ... dave souza, talk 09:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanx for the thanx...and for also realizing that we need to fill out info on Darwin and Gully.  My links to Darwin's letters are straight-forward, verified, and certainly reliable.  I wrote above that he was still a sick "cookie" and not "cured" of his indigestion by Gully, though he never again wrote that he was so sick that he couldn't work one day in every three (as he did earllier).  Darwin did re-visit Gully clinic in 1863, though didn't he see Dr. James Smith Ayerst (another homeopathic physician) who took over Gully's practice?  In any case, I'm glad to work with you on this.  DanaUllmanTalk 14:18, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I had forgotten about this article until today. I look forward to working with others to provide both primary and secondary sources here.  First, however, I would like to get some clarity about biographical material and OR.  If I am quoting from the person about which this article is focussed, is this really OR? DanaUllmanTalk 06:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. See WP:NOR#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources and WP:NOR#Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position . . dave souza, talk 23:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Maybe it is the way you add quotes - like by adding them with a lot of editorializing or OR etcetc...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.84.144.193 (talk) 19:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Darwin's experiences with Dr. James Manby Gully 

message: The reference given to support the description of Dr Edmund Smith as "a homeopathic physician" does not do this.  The letter on the page of The correspondence of Charles Darwin referred to is Letter 2502 on the Darwin Correspondence Project (wouldn't it be better to refer to the online version of the same text so that others can more easily check it for themselves?), and says, "Dr Smith, I think, is sensible, but he is a Homœopathist!! & as far as I can judge does not personally look much after patients or anything else."  We do not know whether, by "he is a Homœopathist!!" Darwin means he practices as a homoeopathic doctor, uses homoeopathy as an adjunct to the "Water Cure", or is merely a supporter of homoeopathy.  The description of Smith as "a homeopathic physician" is not supported - this looks like OR or SYN.  A footnote to the letter says that several hydropathic doctors, such as J.M. Gully, also used homoeopathy; not that they were also "homeopathic physicians".  
Darwin, by the way, seems not to have had a very high opinion of Smith.  In another letter he says, "I doubt whether Dr Smith would have suited you: they all say he is very careful in bad illness; but he constantly gives me impression, as if he cared very much for the Fee & very little for the patient."  Is it worth mentioning Darwin's opinion of Smith in the article? Brunton (talk) 19:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dr Edmund Smith 

message: The symptoms of abdominal pain and vomiting sound a lot like the experience of hiatus hernia, where the stomach protruded through the diaphragm into the chest cavity.  The symptoms are exacerbated by meals and by tension arising from stress.  Given that Darwin was fearful of becoming a social and scientific outcast for most of his life until the Royal Society began to be dominated by evolutionists in the decade before his death, he certainly suffered from stress.  A social shyness with strangers that probably was the cause of his hermit-like existence at Downe village would also have been a source of stress when visiting strangers had to be received.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hfinger (talk • contribs) 02:40, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the thoughts, however "no original research" policy means that we can only add such information if they can be verified as published by a reliable source. It's worth reading Browne on his life at Downe, which was certainly not "hermit like". . . dave souza, talk 08:16, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: An Explanation for Dyspepsia

message: The newest theory (12th Feb 2009 GMT) comes from Barry Marshall who maintains that Darwin actually had the ulcer causing bacterium Helicobacter pylori- the discovery for which Warren and I won the Nobel Prize in 2005.  Actually, almost everyone had this gastric infection in Victorian England so one can hardly argue that Darwin did not have it.  The ubiquitous bug causes ulcers in 10% of infected persons and causes dyspepsia in another 10% or so.  Helicobacter explains Darwin's lifelong illness.  
I will have time to update this post in the coming weeks but cannot provide a definitive reerence until my speculations are published elsewhere.  So far the paper has been rejected, which, with my track record, could be a plus.  Upon reflection and review of these pages however, one can see that the whole entry is one of speculation based on opinion.  I need not repeat what is already posted, suffice to say that much of it could be Helicobacter and/or peptic ulcer.  A review of epidemiology of Helicobacter and Ulcer in the 19th century, by Sonnenberg, is here. Barjammar (talk) 07:07, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was Darwin's Illness Caused by Helicobacter Pylori? 

message: This observation is purely personal.  I have multiple sclerosis.  I have or have had the same symptoms as Darwin.  Optic neuritis (black spots before the eyes, as cited above) which I have had, is considered by some to be diagnostic of the disorder. My Flatley (talk) 05:50, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry to hear that. As you'll know, MS is very variable and for us to include the possibility, we'd need published verification that it's been put forward by an appropriate expert. My own feeling is that van Wyhe is right to say in his recent biography that "we will probably never know exactly what he suffered from". . . dave souza, talk 09:41, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple Sclerosis 

message: copied from Talk:Charles Darwin
: In response to the cause of Darwins illness is suspected to be Chagas transmitted by a blood sucking bug. it would make perfect sense considering that he suffered from heart palpitations. I also saw a piece on Darwin where they suspected that it was a manchuka bug. I can not seem to find that specific name but that was what the locals referred to as manchuka bug (the show I was watching.) When this bug was shown it looks exactly like a triatomine bug aka the kissing bug. I have included some reference on this bug. If I am correct in saying there should be in Darwin`s journal(s) from his time in south america, he apparently mentions that during one night he was bit by this supposed bug. Since the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention state that triatomine bugs do carry the protozone parasite symbioticly in there system, it would also  make sense. it is suspected that several million have Chagas, most do not know they have it.
:The centres for disease control and prevention mention  the possible ways to get chagas is the bug defacating on you after being bit, eating food that wasnt properly cooked with the fecal matter of the bug in the food, congenitally, accidental lab exposure, blood transfusion or organ transplant. considering he was having stomach and heart problems which are linked to chagas, being bit by this bug makes the most sense.
:The only way to be sure is either finding some autopsy of Darwin or confirming if his journals report this.
:references
:triatomine bug
:kissing bug
:centres for disease control and prevention: chagas
:detailed info on chagas from cdc
:from ~~elle quence~~ (i do apologize if anything in my post is not in compliance with wiki, first post and still getting use to where everything is) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elle quence (talk • contribs) 04:59, 18 April 2009
::Thanks, we've got to be careful to avoid adding previously unpublished research or conclusions, and can't put together unrelated articles unless they specifically make the suggestion that this was the cause of Darwin's own problems. The balance of opinion is that the cause will remain unknown, as a new autopsy is most unlikely to happen. Anyway, it's worth looking over this article to see if our discussion of the issue can be improved. . .dave souza, talk 08:46, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Chagas – re cause of illness

message: The article text is a bit confusing. My understanding is that when he first went to Ilkley he stayed at Wells House spa. Later, when his family came up to join him, he stayed with them at nearby North View House, Wells Terrace (now Hillside Court, Crossbeck Road). 25 May 2009.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.75.85 (talk) 12:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for raising this, the text did seem a bit unclear. Going by Freeman, from Oct.2–Dec.7 he was at Wells Terrace, Ilkley (CD there when Origin published), and "Ilkley nr Otley, Yorkshire. 1859 Autumn CD to water cure there, stayed at Wells Terrace. CD was there when Origin was published." The Correspondence Project describes Dr Smith as "Proprietor of Ilkley Wells hydropathic establishment, Ilkley," so I've clarified it on that basis. If you've a source for the two part move, we can cite that and modify the statement accordingly. . . dave souza, talk 12:53, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Here is the info:
Darwin Correspondence Project www.darwinproject.ac.uk 
Letter 2502: to W.D.Fox, from Wells House, 6 Oct 1859. CD has a sitting room and bedroom at Wells House and mentions that he as received a letter from Emma Darwin asking him to find a house nearby so that she can come to Ilkley.
Letter 2498: to William Darwin, from North House, Wells Terrace, 14 Oct. CD mentions that
the family will join him there in a few days time. 25 May 2009.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.75.85 (talk) 20:53, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Good stuff, have clarified the article a bit using these sources. Tnanks muchly, dave souza, talk 21:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks. Here is a nice view of Ilkley from behind White Wells House, with Wells House and Wells Terrace (Hillside Court) visible at the bottom of the moor. www.darwin200.org/darwins-britain/ilkley.html 8 June 2009.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.120.204 (talk) 10:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Very informative photo, obviously it's under copright but if a Wikipedian takes their own photo and uploads it (it has to be under a suitable "free license") that would make a good illustration of the article, unfortunately the current Ilkley photos don't seem to include White Wells House or Wells Terrace. . dave souza, talk 10:48, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Stay at Ilkley

message: There's a lot of what appears to be Original Research in this section - will remove the reasoning, and leave only the cited sources in a while. If anybody knows of good research into these causes (or even links to relevant people positing them) then put 'em in! BananaFiend (talk) 16:02, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the paper has been published, this Cyclic vomiting syndrome possibility seems better supported than the others in this section, and could merit a subsection of its own. Disclaimer: I helped review the outline historical aspects of the paper, but make no claim to any medical knowledge and, if anything, share the view of historians such as John van Wyhe that we'll never really know what the illness was. Any expert commentary on the paper will be welcome. . . dave souza, talk 20:35, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Other possible causes

message: I wrote in the edit summary that there's a whole article about darwin and religion and I'm just trying to make this article to the point but the system didn't accept what I wrote for some reason.
So if there are no objections Im going to change the article back now.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.142.213.139 (talk) 05:41, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Your changes were reverted by various editors, not by "the system", so if you want your edit to stick, please make the case for the change here in accordance with WP:TALK and get consensus before making the change. Thanks, . dave souza, talk 09:14, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  sorry 

message: The opening states "leaving him severely debilitated for long periods of time, incapable of normal life and intellectual production." This statement has no source and I strongly doubt that this is true. I vote we delete this, or find a reliable source to support it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Averagejoedev (talk • contribs) 17:12, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it seems rather exaggerated, though Darwin was clearly debilitated for significant periods. The quote doesn't come up in searches in DarwinOnline or the letter project, so have removed it and substituted "in some ways this may have helped his work" with a quote which already appears in the context of that issue, plus a new more direct citation. Thanks for your comments, dave souza, talk 22:35, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vote for change to the opening of the article

message: This was cited to  but I can't get access to that. More usefully, Woodruff 1968 shows the source to be CD's autobio p. 64 so will cite them instead. . dave souza, talk 08:57, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Palpitations pre start of voyage

message: It now seems pretty certain that Darwin suffered from Crohn's disease. This was proposed in 2007 in the Royal society Journal of the History of Science, and in a Channel 4 Documentary broadcast today it was confirmed by Professor Stephan Schuster who sequenced part of his genome and found "a total of twenty-one markers for Crohn’s disease, five of them being diagnostic, including the major marker on chromosome 16". I'm no expert but that sounds pretty conclusive to me. How is the best way to present this in the article - is it case closed? Richerman   (talk) 23:09, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crohn's disease - case closed? 

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thread_title:  External links modified