Talk:Escape of Charles II

message: The family who owned Montacute House were called Phelips not Phiilips
Is this a typo in the text or a misindentifaction?Olddemdike (talk) 00:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It was certainly Col Edward Phelips, of whom there is a portrait at the house. Have now corrected and added link to house. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:00, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: What was the name of the woman Charles disguised himself as? Was it Polly something? VenomousConcept (talk) 10:47, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you not getting confused with the flight o f"Charles Edward Stuart"  "Bonnie Prince Charlie" who disguised himself as "Betty Burke"?81.174.168.60 (talk) 12:09, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disguise as woman 

message: --— Preceding unsigned comment added by Darrelljon (talk • contribs) of 11:34, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map requested 

message: I was unaware that quotations required individual citation when a paragraph has a citation at the end. Is the rash of 'citation needed' tags in this article as silly as it seems to be to me? Urselius (talk) 16:02, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a scientist, we don't quote much. But, it isn't quite the cast-iron case  you are suggesting. Substantive quotations, that affect the meaning of a passage, are usually given citations; but illustrative quotations or quotations repeated from the same source are often not. These are merely attributed somewhere in the text. Certainly Antonia Fraser's biography has many uncited quotations, though the more substantive ones are. Urselius (talk) 15:22, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Urselius, it is common in history papers to add an inline citation for all quotation see for example Chicago Style Referencing with Confidence, York University "In-text citation is included in the body of your  text and is there to directly show the reader where an idea, piece of information, and/ or a quotation are from. ... For example, if you ... Provide quotations or definitions in your essay ... cite the source". As I said this is a common standard in history articles. -- PBS (talk) 15:15, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation needed

message: I noted an anomaly in the narrative account in the article. Namely, the account has Charles leaving Heale House on the 12th, staying at Hambledon that night and arriving at Brighton on the evening of the 15th, leaving on the morning of the 16th. So where was he on the nights of 13th and 14th? The answer is that these dates are wrong. He left Heale early morning on the 13th, stayed at Hambledon on that night, and arrived at Brighton on the evening on the 14th, boarded the Surprise in the early hours of the 15th and set sail later that morning. That means that he escaped English shores on the 15th not the 16th. I see the Coote book (which I don't have) is used as references for the 16th October but I can't see that it makes any sense. Unfortunately, the two book I have, Spenser and Ollard, are not very clear about dates, you have to work it out, but their texts are consistent with my interpretation.
These are some of the many references I found supporting a 15 October departure date:
https://www.glaucus.org.uk/Surprise.htm
https://h2g2.com/entry/A39368640
https://www.glaucus.org.uk/Royal_Escape.htm - includes statement by Col Gunter - I have used this as a reference
http://theroyalmiracle.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/october-15-1651.html
http://brightonbits.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/royal-escape.html
https://archive.org/stream/flightofkingfull00feaa/flightofkingfull00feaa_djvu.txt
I have made the change to correct the article
John Price (talk) 12:03, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Date of sailing

message: There are problems with these sentence:
The Monarch's Way is not much use as during this section it follows a scenic route rather than a known route.
The two near contemporary primary sources for the escape state:
I found them mightily distracted, and their opinions different, of the possibility of getting to Scotland, but not one agreeing with mine, for going to London, saving my Lord Wilmot; and the truth is, I did not impart my design of going to London to any but my Lord Wilmot. But we had such a number of beaten men with us, of the horse, that I strove, as soon as ever it was dark, to get from them; and though I could not get them to stand by me against the enemy, I could not get rid of them, now I had a mind to it. 
So we, that is, my Lord Duke of Buckingham, Lauderdale, Derby, Wilmot, [Colonel] Tom Blague, Duke Darcey, and several others of my servants, went along northward towards Scotland; and at last we got about sixty that were gentlemen and 
officers, and slipt away out of the high-road that goes to Lancastershire, and kept on the right-hand, letting all the beaten men go along the great road, and ourselves not knowing very well which way to go, for it was then too late for us 
to get to London, on horse-back, riding directly for it, nor could we do it, because there was yet many people of quality with us that I could not get rid of. 
So we rode through a town short of Wolverhampton, betwixt that and Worcester, and went thro', there lying a troop of the enemies there that night. We rode very quietly through the town, they having nobody to watch, nor they suspecting us no more than we did them, which I learned afterwards from a country-fellow. 
We went that night about twenty miles, to a place called White Ladys, hard by Tong-Castle,... (pages 5–6)
*
Before His Majesty was come to Barbon's Bridge, about half a mile out of Worcester, he made several stands, faced about and desired the Duke of Buckingham, Lord Wilmot, and other of his commanders that they might rally and try the fortune of war once more: But at the bridge a serious consultation was held, and then perceiving many of the troopers to throw off their arms and shift for themselves, they were all of opinion, the day was irrecoverably lost, and that 
their only remaining work was to save the King from those ravenous wolves and regicides; whereupon His Majestie by advice of His Council, resolved to march with all speed for Scotland; ...
Immediately after this result, the Duke asked the Lord Talbot (being of that country) If he could direct the way northwards? His lordship answered that he had one Richard Walker in his troop (formerly a Scout-master in those parts, and who since dyed in Jamaica) that knew the way well; who was accordingly called to be the guide, and performed that duty for some miles; but being come to Kinver heath, not far from Kidderminster, and day light being gone, Walker was at a puzzel in the way. 
Here His Majesty made a stand, and consulted with the Duke, Earl of Derby, Lord Wilmot, etc.. To what place He might march at least to take some hours rest; the Earl of Derby told His Majesty that in his flight from Wiggan to Worcester, he had met with a perfect honest man, and a great convenience of concealment at Boscobel house (before mentioned) but withall acquainted the King it was a recusants house; and it was suggested that those people (being accustomed to persecution and searches) were most like to have the readiest means and safest contrivances to preserve him ; His Majesty therefore inclined to go thither. 
The Lord Talbot being made acquainted therewith and finding Walker dubious of the way, called for Mr. Charles Giffard (a faithful subject and of the ancient family of Chillington) to be his Majesties conductor, which office Mr. Giffard 
willingly undertook, having one Yates a servant with him, very expert in the ways of that country; and being come near Sturbridge, it was under consideration whether His Majesty should march through that town or no and resolved in the 
affirmative and that all about His person should speak French to prevent any discovery of his Majesties presence. 
Meantime General Lesley with the Scottish horse had in the close of the evening taken the more direct way northward by Newport, His Majesty being left only attended by the Duke of Buckingham, Earl of Derby, Earl of Lauderdail, Lord Talbot, Lord Wilmot, Col. Thomas Blague, Col. Edward Roscarrock, Mr. Marmaduke Darcy, Mr. Richard Lane, Mr. William Armorer, (since knighted,) Mr. Hugh May, Mr. Charles Giffard, Mr. Peter Street, and some others, in all about 60 Horse. 
At a house about a mile beyond Sturbridge, His Majesty drank, and eat a crust of bread, the house affording no better provision, and as His Majesty rode on, he discoursed with Col. Roscarrock touching Boscobel house and the means 
of security which the Earl of Derby and he found at that place. 
However Mr. Giffard humbly proposed to  carry His Majesty first to Whiteladies (another seat of the Giffards) lying but half a mile beyond Boscobel, where He might repose himself for a while and then take such further resolution as 
His Majesty and Council should think fit. ... (pages 71–74)
*
The map provided by The Worcestershire historian John William Willis-Bund shows that if they left Worcester by the north road (numbered 3) over the Barbourne Bridge it would have taken them through Ombseley and Hartlabury. But then it is not clear.
Pepys states that Charles and his party "
The Worcestershire historian John William Willis-Bund writing in 1905 states on page 8 next to the map that road number (3.)  "Another branch [of the London road], also going to the north, after crossing Barbourne Bridge, went to the left through Ombersley and Hartlebury; here it again branches off the road to the right, going through the parishes of Chaddesley Corbett and Belbroughton, past Hagley andPedmore to Stourbridge into Staffordshire. This is the road by which Charles II went after the Battle of Worcester. The road to the right at Hartlebury passed through Kidderminster, and so on to Bridgnorth."
On pages 255-256 he expands on this using Pypes as one of his primary sources but adds a letter from Richard Baxter, a Kidderminster divine and Roundhead Chaplin:
At Barbourne bridge Charles had to decide what he would do. He says he was anxious to go to London, but he was 
dissuaded by his friends from doing this. There were a large number of fugitives, including most of the Scotch horse, who 
had refused to fight when wanted, and when not wanted would not leave the King. Charles had a difficulty in shaking them off.
They all went on together through Ombersley to Hartlebury. There, where the Stourbridge road turns off to the 
right from the Kidderminster road [see the map], Charles, with Wilmot, the Duke of Buckingham, and a few others, left the mass of fugitives to go on to Kidderminster, and turned down through Chaddesley Corbett parish, past Hagley and Pedmore, to Stourbridge, or as Charles says himself: 
At Stourbridge there was a troop of Parliament horse, but they were not keeping any look out and Charles was able to 
get by without causing an alarm. From Stourbridge he went on to Kinver and there got into Staffordshire. 
It was fortunate that he changed his route from the main road to the right. Those who went on to Kidderminster were not 
so lucky. Riding at a rapid rate they woke up the townsmen as they passed through. According to [Richard] Baxter's account : 
The usually accepted version, which agrees with Charles' own account, is that he passed through Stourbridge, but a place 
is shown at Wolverley, in the dell below the bank on which Lea Castle stands, as the precise spot over which Charles crossed on his way to Kinver and Boscobel (see Noake, Notes and Queries for Worcestershire, p. 325).
Wherever the spot was where Charles left the County it is doubtful if he ever returned to it. ...
*
If one accepts that Charles did not continue up the Worcester Kidderminster road but branched off if at Hartlebury (see the map) then for anyone who knows the area it is very unlikely that he crossed the river Stour near Wolverley as that just north of Kidderminster and well removed from the main road that goes from Hartlebury to Stourbridge. If he had crossed at Wolverley then Kinver heath is possible, but it would be well out of his way to go from Kinver to Stourbridge and to do so he would have first had to recross the Stour to have been able to do what is stated in the Pepys account "We rode very quietly through the town, they having nobody to watch, ..." 
As Kidderminster and Stourbridge were the only town of any size (apart from Dudley) between Worcester and Wolverhampton and clearly Charles could not go through Kidderminster (see above what Richard Baxter wrote of what happened that night in Kidderminster), then the Wolverley then Kinver line is unlikely. The Wolverley tradition seems to be one of those types folk tails that people often attach to events like this and there is no primary source for Charles crossing the river Stour below Lea Castle (just upstream and on the other bank from Wolverley). The Kinver heath location is mentioned in the (Tract 2), but given the geography it seems to contradict Tract 1 (Pepys) account.
It is possible to go from Stourbridge to Kinver, but to do so would have been out of his way as the usual route from Stourbridge to Wolverhampton would be through Amblecote (what is now the A491), but it would be a possible rout if Charle's guides lost their way once through Stourbridge. 
This Google Map 
link helps to explain what I mean.
I would suggest that we follow Willis-Bund as an authoritative secondary source (given he was a local historian), but mention the folk tail of Lea Castle; and Kinver from tract 2 as an alternative route.
-- PBS (talk) 17:38, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Shouldn't we be using modern secondary sources on this e.g. ? EEng 18:14, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: What do those sources say about the first night of the escape? -- PBS (talk) 08:29, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know; I'm just pointing out that there are more modern sources. I'll get them if you want, but I hesitate to get too involved just now because I'm a bit overloaded and there's a lot of context of which I'm ignorant. (Fascinating period, of course -- one of my favorite people is John Wilkins). EEng 15:28, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

text: OK, I got those two + one more, all specifically on Charles' flight. But it may be some time before I can really look at them in relation to the question at hand. Can we suspend this conversation for two or three weeks? EEng 18:28, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: No worries, but I have also invited others to the section. -- PBS (talk) 19:23, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

text: Here's another (Edwardian) account by an Allan Fea (1910) (whoever he was, author of "Secret Chambers and Hiding-places", etc.) who says Charles crossed the river at Blakeshall (see page 10) (which is near the aptly-named Kingsford. Just sayin'. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:00, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

text: Ridiculous. Everyone knows that the A491 wasn't built until the reign of George II. Anyway, I still have those sources on my shelf and will try to get back to them before I go on vacation in May. EEng 04:08, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the article on A491 it was "turnpiked" in 1753 (in the reign of George II), but what makes you so sure that it was a new road and not a road improvement? It seems to me likely that there was a road from Stourbridge to Ambelcote and beyond before the reign of George II, because if not, why was the bridge there and where did the road go north of the Stour? -- PBS (talk) 10:10, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I argued in 'Some roads out of North Worcestershire' Transactions of Worcestershire Archaeological Society 3rd ser. 20 (2006), 88-9, describing it as the road to Stafford that the road Hartlebury-Hagley-Stourbridge-Kingswinford cross-Wolverhampton was Saxon in origin, if not older.  This is the route favoured by Willis-Bund.  Most early turnpikes involved the improvement of existing roads, rather than the creation of new ones.  Perhaps more problematic might be A451 Kidderminster-Stourbridge, but this is shown on an estate map of c.1735 (for Iverley) and before the inclosure of Iverley Hay in the late 17th century was across heathland from Broadwaters on the edge of Kidderminster to the end of north end of Norton Road Stourbridge, so that there would have been no difficulty in going that way.  I was not seeking to imply that any of the suggested routes was new: it is merely a question of which one was followed.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:20, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

text: I've still got the sources on my shelf, but I'm still traveling. Stand by. EEng 04:44, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flight from [[Worcester]] to [[White Ladies Priory|White Ladies]]