Talk:ZCMI

message: Lee Benson, columnist for the Deseret News writes about the botched merger of Meier & Frank with ZCMI after the company closed the store's basement bakery and lunch counter, apparently called "Salt Lake Downstairs" at one point. Talking with employees, it seemed Utah was the forgotten stepchild of the May division based in Portland, Ore. After consolidation with Robinson-May in Hollywood, the stores were actually treated better by the division office.
http://www.desnews.com.ezproxy.westminstercollege.edu/cgi-bin/cqcgi_state/@state.env?CQ_SESSION_KEY=AXNAZOALVEPW&CQ_CUR_DOCUMENT=1&CQ_TEXT_MAIN=YES
Links to Deseret News about ZCMI's "unprecedented" expansion in 1991 before ZCMI II started struggling in Nevada and Arizona: http://www.desnews.com.ezproxy.westminstercollege.edu/cgi-bin/cqcgi_state/@state.env?CQ_SESSION_KEY=AXNAZOALVEPW&CQ_CUR_DOCUMENT=3&CQ_TEXT_MAIN=YES
Another link to a slightly earlier article by the D. News clarifying progress on ZCMI expansion - DOES REFERENCE MOVING INTO BOISE, IDAHO.
http://www.desnews.com.ezproxy.westminstercollege.edu/cgi-bin/cqcgi_state/@state.env?CQ_SESSION_KEY=AXNAZOALVEPW&CQ_CUR_DOCUMENT=2&CQ_TEXT_MAIN=YES
Another reference to looking at spaces in Boise, Idaho and Twin Falls, Idaho (likely Boise Towne Square Mall and Magic Valley Mall):
http://www.desnews.com.ezproxy.westminstercollege.edu/cgi-bin/cqcgi_state/@state.env?CQ_SESSION_KEY=AXNAZOALVEPW&CQ_CUR_DOCUMENT=9&CQ_TEXT_MAIN=YES
The Wikipedia entry for ZCMI needs more information on ZCMI's rich history.  Any help would be appreciated.  As needed, I can help with more recent history (1980's through present). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.163.86.19 (talk • contribs) 
:Boy, this is the most understated thing I've read here on Wikipedia.  While the current details about ZCMI are pretty good, and the list of stores when the chain wwas closed down is pretty accurate, it is hardly an exaustive list of stores that have been in existance.  Virtually every Mormon community had a version of ZCMI at one time or another, and some decidedly non-Mormon communities as well.  The most remarkable being a ZCMI set up in Rapid City, South Dakota.
:In addition, a huge part of the history of ZCMI is tied directly with the history of Utah, including the petition for Utah statehood and the fight between the "Mormons" and the "Gentiles" during the territorial days of Utah.  Part of this history should include how members of the LDS Church would face excommunication if they shopped anywhere except at ZCMI.  I am not kidding here.  Several LDS Church members were removed from the church rolls because of this seemingly irrational justification (based on modern sentiments).  Keep in mind that there was a coordinated economic plan to try and push the non-Mormons out of Mormon influenced areas, and this is really in keeping with other business traditions of 19th Century America as well, including Standard Oil and others that would be illegal with current fair trade laws.
:Saying that the LDS Church was a significant influences is hardly doing justice here.  The LDS Church owned the store lock, stock, and barrel.  And the decision to sell ZCMI to May department stores was mainly a way for the LDS Church to get out of that sort of business.  What is surprising is that is was a subsiderary of the LDS Church for so long, making it into the 21st Century.  The LDS Church has divested itself from other businesses it started back elsewhen like a Sugar Company and a chain of Hospitals, and in that context ZCMI is just one of several aspects of life in Utah.  --Robert Horning 16:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:ZCMIlogo1997.gif

message: There was once a carefully documented description of ZCMI locations in this article.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zions_Cooperative_Mercantile_Institution&oldid=285210855
I don't yet see a consensus for its deletion: the discussions linked from the deletion comment don't suggest a broad consensus of editors, or a convincing argument (to me at least) from the five pillars. In an encyclopedia that lists every railway station, I think a department store employs more people and serves more customers over its lifetime, and many of these locations existed for a century, so they are a significant part of local history and of the pioneers that settled Utah.
I advocate restoring the list.
--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please restore the list. Cortina2 (talk) 01:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that these stores were a significant part of local history. I've restored the list of former locations. Gobonobo T C 02:31, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for restoring the list, which appears to be accurate. Where did you find it? ThanksCortina2 (talk) 19:38, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

text: All previous versions of Wikipedia pages can be accessed through the history tab. It looks like the former locations section was deleted in an edit here. Gobonobo T C 20:26, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

text: As I've mentioned before, Utah historian Martha Sontag Bradley's book about ZCMI may be the place to start for sourcing the store locations. I know that the information removed today was pretty accurate, but I don't have the documentation to back it up. However, it should be in press releases about store openings. There may be information in the store's annual reports. The Salt Lake Tribune or Deseret News newspapers might have archived articles with this information. Perhaps this will give you a start. Cortina2 (talk) 00:59, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

text: Schuminweb, do you think the list of stores is wrong?  If you dispute the accuracy, then by all means it will stay deleted.  But if you deleted it just because it is not sourced, please lets restore it, for the reasons I mentioned above.  --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 20:20, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia does not operate based on whether something is true.  It operates based on whether something is verifiable.  If we can't verify this through reliable sources, then it goes.  We've had long discussions about these kinds of lists of former store locations, and they're generally unsuitable for inclusion in Wikipedia.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 14:27, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "If we can't verify this through reliable sources, then it goes.".  This is not Wikipedia's definition of verifiable.  --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 20:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is also not a directory. What's the encyclopedic gain of having a directory of current or former store locations? tedder (talk) 16:37, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There isn't.  That's the bottom line.  I love it when people say it's significant to local history, but then their argument falls flat when you tell them if it's so significant to the local history of the town, then it should be included in the article about the town rather than the article about the company.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 20:40, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

text: After reading tedder and SchuminWeb's last responses, I've got to agree that there is no encyclopedic gain. This kind of information belongs in a publication about retailing history, at best. I will say though, that I think the Salt Lake Downtown flagship store does have historical and encyclopedic value. But no, not the others. Thanks. Cortina2 (talk) 23:56, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: How dumb: eliminating something just because JUDICIAL NOTICE is the source of the fact. Even in the courts, judicial notice is allowed on such facts that water flows downhill, air is lighter than water, the Statue of Liberty is in New York City, the Mormon Tabernacle is in Salt Lake City, 2 + 3 = 5, and other FACTS that can be perceived by the eyes and the ears. Not everything requires sources and testimony to verify them. People do not show up in court to quote for mathematics books, and chemical engineers are not called in as witnesses about the gross properties of water. There were ZCMI stores in Salt Lake City, Ogden, and certain other cities; millions of people saw them with their own eyes; and there is no possible dispute to those facts. Only fools delete undisputable historical facts, and facts that many readers — myself included — are interested in finding out about.98.67.96.230 (talk) 15:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Location list - lets discuss restoring it 

message: By 1890, there were 146 co-ops in 126 settlements of the Utah Territory, constituting one of the first voluntary chain store operations in America. In the 1990s, ZCMI executive management began searching for the locations of the original Utah and Idaho co-ops. As of 1995, 17 dating from 1868 had been found. They included the co-op in Wallsburg, UT, which opened in October 1890. ZC's president visited the Wallsburg location and presented an historical marker indicating it was an original Zions co-op. Among the other 16 locations found up to that time, is Santa Clara, UT, where a co-op operated from 1928 to 1945. There was also one in Sugar House, at 1050 to 1100 East 2100 South. The building housing it was torn down in 2008 or 2009.Cortina2 (talk) 01:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder if any of these co-ops are listed in the National Register of Historic Places. Gobonobo T C 02:36, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a good possibility the Salt Lake downtown flagship store was on the list. I think it had a plaque from Utah's list. Downtown Salt Lake is under major renovation at the moment. As part of it, the ZCMI Center Mall, which was basically built around the store in the 1970s (the store was also remodeled at that time), was torn down in 2008, and the city block about 75% leveled. There's still a big hole in the ground and lots of construction going on. Of course, the store was Macy's at that point, but it still had the ZCMI iron facade. It was removed and plans are to return it to the front of Macy's new store on the same site. If you run a web search on Utah historian Martha Sontag Bradley, you should find her book about the store from its organization on October 15, 1868. The book may have information about the NHR. There is another book, The Grand Emporiums, by Robert Hendrickson, which also has information about ZCMI qualifying as America's first authentic department store, which in turn makes it one of the world's seven oldest department stores. Cortina2 (talk) 19:28, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The first Zions Cooperative Mercantile Institution co-ops