Talk:Estonia in World War II

message: OK, we have an edit warrior here who doesn't like the pictography in the article that has gone through the front page of WP. Please anybody feel free to revert his/her edit since he/she has chosen to just go ahead explaining the actions and opinions with WP:IDONTLIKEIT. I'm going to restore "the pictography" every second day until a consensus has been met on this. Thanks--Termer 21:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not slander me or you will be promptly reported for a WP:CIV violation. The pictograms are absurd, and plenty of sub-par stuff has gotten by DYK (which passes nearly all nominations). Biruitorul 00:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

text: You are talking about those flag icons in text? :) You guys have found a thing to fight about. Actually WP style guidelines tell you to NOT use flags like that and I have to agree. It's not of very good taste. Cool down everyone, no point to get upset for small things like that. Владимир И. Сува Чего? 07:43, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit warring

message: Hello.
Sorry, but I will not respond to the request placed at Third opinion, since more than two people are involved in the dispute.  — Coren (talk) 02:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's because a couple of us already saw the third opinion request. ;) If you don't want to participate we can't stop you, but I don't see any harm in pitching in your two cents to make consensus a little less foggy. — xDanielx T/C 00:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: nth opinion then: off with the flags; they have no place there.  — Coren (talk) 03:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  (no) third opinion. 

message: Why were the flag icons removed? They made the article a lot easier. I understand, that this is not common to Wikipedia (See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (flags)), but the flag at the top of Pikk Hermann tower basically shows who rules in the city at the moment. I think the flag icons should be brought back. Any other opinions? H2ppyme 19:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag icons 

message: "The fate of Estonia in World War II was decided by the German-Soviet Nonaggression Pact and its Secret Additional Protocol of August 1939."
Really? I thought the fate of Estonia in World War II would have been decided by the outcomes of various battles... after all, Pacts, Protocols, and plans cannot predict the outcome of military efforts. In any case, though it may be a semantic argument, I think the article intro should focus more on the role of Estonia in the war, rather than its fate. Otherwise, an excellent, long, detailed, thorough, and well-cited piece. LordAmeth (talk) 13:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Estonia as a country had no role in the war, only fate that was decided by how the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany divided the countries inbetween them and that was it. The only battle there was between Estonian forces and Soviets in 1940, at Raua street mentioned in the article. Later in 1944 Estonian admiral Johan Pitka tried to form Estonian forces but it was too late. And there wouldn't have much they could have done anyway. Perhaps you missed the fact that it's a country of 1 million people we're talking about here. Population of just a bit more than twice of Luxembourg nowadays. So what kind of outcomes of various battles would you have predicted in case the leaders of Estonia  instead of fully surrendering would have put their bets on going into war and battles with overwhelming Soviet forces in 1940 at the time when Germans just marched into Paris?--Termer (talk) 05:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction

message: In this article it says "World War II losses in Estonia, estimated at around 25%". In the article World War II casualties however, the deaths as % of 1939 population are shown 3.62% of population. This does not mention any military deaths, just as noone died. They are instead, counted for the Soviet Union and the Nazi Germany. The "owner" of this article doesn't let anyone to change things on that page and reverts all edits, that add information to the tables. Anyone, who knows more about WW2 could try to change something in that article. 
Also, a suggestion for this article. Could there be summarized tables for the number of mobilised, deported, emigrees and the number of deaths? Right now it's like searching a needle in a haystack when searching for numbers. H2ppyme (talk) 11:23, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything seems to be in sync for my eyes. total deaths says 81,000 over there up to 90,000 over here. And the 25% population losses include Baltic Germans that left to Germany, the Estonian Swedes escaping to Sweden and Estonians that escaped all over the World.--Termer (talk) 00:23, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Help with another article

message: The image :Image:German Soviet.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --01:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:German Soviet.jpg

message: OK FeelSunny, this has gone a bit too far! Please stop inserting your personal commentaries into this article    . Please note that "half and half" and/or 50/50 is an expression in English and the citation in the article is a figurative speech that doesn't have anything to do with any countries.--Termer (talk) 03:57, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  FeelSunny  

message: Just wondering, the image  added by DJ Sturm, it says "Soldiers with Tiger I during the Battle of Narva", but nothing in the image description on Commons  connects it with the place and the time. It says "Russland, Panzer VI (Tiger I), Soldaten im Schnee", meaning "Russia, Panzer VI (Tiger I), Soldiers in Snow". And the additional description -Extra information: "Sowjetunion.- Panzer VI "Tiger I" auf Straße, Infanterie-Kolonne mit weißen Tarnanzügen auf dem Marsch auf verschneiter Straße; Eins Kp Lw zbV". Meaning "Soviet Union. - Panzer VI "Tiger I" on the street, Infantry platoon wearing white camouflage suits march on the snowy road.".. So what has that to do with the Battle of Narva? In case such a connection can't be established that the image has anything to do with Estonia in WW II, the pic should be removed.--Termer (talk) 18:00, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That's bullshit - it could be anywhere in Pskov Oblast. --Erikupoeg (talk) 12:54, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bundesarchiv Bild 101I-664-6758-33A 

message: The deportations and "occupational deaths" figures appear many times in the article, but I can't seem to find the number of Estonians that fought in the Germany and Red Armies. The article could use that kind of info. --Tavrian 19:33, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Take a closer look. The article presents 50,000-60,000 as serving in the Estonian SS Division and 20,000 as the number of Estonians in the 8th Rifle Corps--Erikupoeg (talk) 20:39, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure there were many Estonians that served outside those two formations...and how can a divison have 50,000-60,000 soldiers - or is this the number that enlisted? --Tavrian 01:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There were practically no native Estonians serving on the Soviet side outside the 8th Rifle Corps. 50,000-60,000 was the number of the Estonians enlisted in the Estonian SS Division. The total number of the Estonians serving in the German forces was 70,000. --Erikupoeg (talk) 08:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

text: I tried google.images search with the Russian name . Not much, it seems. --Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 21:08, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

text: The source  says 100,000 Balts, not Estonians. It's impossible to tell, where does Hannes Walter get his figures. A study specifically dealing with the Estonians in the German forces - Nõmm, Toe. Eesti üksustest Saksa sõjaväes: Formeerimine ja isikkoosseis. (On Estonian units within German army: Formation and personnel. In Estonian) // Akadeemia 1, 1990 - estimates 70,000 Estonians serving within the German forces.--Erikupoeg (talk) 09:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

text: @Martin. Did you mean this image? --Miacek and his crime-fighting dogM. se fâche(woof!) 08:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is it. I have no idea what formation they are. Martintg (talk) 12:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The description of the photo in Russian says: "The "For Soviet Estonia" tank column handed over to Estonian Rifle Corps". --Erikupoeg (talk) 15:10, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Estonians on both sides 

message: I am wondering who introduced Estonian flag into the Belligerent sections? Wasn't Estonia neutral during WWII?--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:48, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone has indeed added this. With the footnote attached to it, works for me. Estonia declared neutrality in the war, yet there were attempts to restore independence using military force, see Bulletin of international news, Volume 21 By Royal Institute of International Affairs. Information Dept--Termer (talk) 02:25, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The footnote is meant to clear the complicated matter. The battle groups partly led by Johan Pitka were organised in order to defend the Government of Estonia declared in 18 September 1944. Indeed, the government declared neutrality but when the German forces defending Toompea refused to leave, the battle groups attacked them. When the Soviets approached Tallinn, the Estonian forces set up defences against them and were beaten. So talking about Estonia in WWII, there were forces involved in Sept. 1944 that were neither pro-German, pro-Soviet nor paramilitary but pro-independence Estonian. However, Estonia as a state never formally declared war. Does it not work for you, Paul? --Jaan Pärn (talk) 12:21, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, it does. I am aware of the Estonian contribution. However, AFAIK, the belligerents section should reflect formal rather that actual state of things. Since majority sources tell about Estonian neutrality, showing Estonian flag in the belligerents section may fit OR criteria. I will be glad if someone proved I was wrong.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If that indeed is the policy, I will support removing the flag and the title 'Estonia' and replacing it with 'pro-independence Estonian forces'. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 14:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Jaan Pärn's solution would be the most appropriate. Estonia did redeclare its sovereignty between the Nazi retreat and Sovuet re-invasion and Estonian troops were engaged against both forces at the same time. Unfortunately, the Belligerent box is simply not set up to capture that sort of nuance. As an invaded neutral party, Estonia (official, flag, etc.) was not a belligerent in the sense/purpose of the infobox. VЄСRUМВА  ♪  14:26, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That was exactly what I mean. Since peoples used not to read footnotes, the info box creates an impression that Estonia was a third party during WWII. I believe, the fact that Estonia was neutral during whole WWII but few days (and even during these days it remained neutral de jure) should be reflected in the info box more clearly.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:26, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  A "belligerents" section 

message: :There could be a mentioned, that the Soviets used military bases in Estonia against Finland during the Winter War. And also, a mention of the Finnish–Estonian defense cooperation, where the Estonians gave a top secret information of the Red Army movements to the Finns, as the Estonian had decrypted the Soviet radio code. Peltimikko (talk) 06:34, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Should we just copy the Finnish–Estonian defense cooperation#Radio intelligence and the Winter War to the article? --Jaan Pärn (talk) 12:21, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Finnish-Estonian cooperation

message: I personally have some doubts if such article should have an infobox. Most articles about general WW II histories of specific countries don't seem to use it.--Staberinde (talk) 22:04, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree to removing it. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 11:20, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox? 

message: After Germany invaded the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941, Finland sided with Germany in the Continuation War. On July 3, Stalin made his public statement over the radio calling for a scorched earth policy in the areas to be abandoned. In North Estonia, the Soviet destruction battalions had the greatest impact, being the last Baltic territory captured from the Soviets. Pro-independence Forest Brothers, numbering about 50,000, attacked the forces of the NKVD and the 8th Army (Major General Ljubovtsev), killing 4,800 and capturing 14,000.
After the German 18th Army crossed the Estonian southern border on July 7–9, the Forest Brothers organized themselves into bigger units. They took on the Red Army units and Extermination Battalions in Võrumaa at Antsla on July 5, 1941. The next day a larger offensive happened in Vasteliina where the Forest Brothers prevented Russian destruction of the town and trapped the Russians, the extermination battalion chiefs and local communist administrators. On July 7 the Forest Brothers were able to hoist the Estonian flag in Vasteliina. Võru was subsequently liberated and by the time the German army arrived the blue-black-white flags were already at full mast and the Forest Brothers had organised into Omakaitse – self defense units.[60]
The battle of Tartu lasted for two weeks, and destroyed a large part of the city. In the fires of 12 and 13 July, the headquarters of the Estonian Defence League, the campus of the Faculty of Veterinary and Agriculture of the University of Tartu and more university buildings were burnt down. Several libraries of the University and 135 major private libraries were destroyed, totalling at 465,000 books, many archive materials and 2,500 pieces of art lost. Among them were the libraries of Aino and Gustav Suits and Aurora and Johannes Semper.[61]
Under the leadership of Friedrich Kurg, the Forest Brothers drove out the Soviets from Tartu, driving the Soviet troops behind the Pärnu River – the Emajõgi line and securing South Estonia under Estonian control by July 10.[62] The NKVD murdered 193 people in Tartu Prison on their retreat on July 8.
Soviet Extermination Battalions wrought havoc on the countryside while combating the national partisans. Formed in Estonia on June 27, 1941 in face of the advancing German Army. Ostensibly to fight against saboteurs and traitors, they were given wide mandate by the Soviet authorities to summarily execute any suspicious person. Thousands of people including a large proportion of women and children were killed, while dozens of villages, schools and public buildings were burned to the ground. A school boy Tullio Lindsaar had all bones in his hands broken then was bayoneted for hoisting the Estonian tri-colour. Mauricius Parts, son of the Estonian War of Independence hero Karl Parts, was doused in acid. In August 1941, all residents of the village Viru-Kabala were killed including a two-year old child and a six-day old infant. A partisan war broke out in response to the atrocities of the destruction battalions, with tens of thousands of men forming the Forest Brothers to protect the local population from these battalions.[63]
Etc.--SergeiXXX (talk) 22:25, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The entire 'Summer War' section is POV. 

message: I had to revert the undiscussed edits by Igny. An entire section + some sourced facts were removed for some reason? also what was this all about  "According to Estonian point of view". What is this "Estonian POV" exactly, what kind of source speaks about it? The same goes for  "partially supporting Estonia's position"? Who has said Estonia's position is supported and even better "partially"? I mean, if you're talking about "Estonia's position" first that comes to my mind is geography. In the context was it suppose to be a position, an opinion of somebody from Estonia? As I can't imagine an entire country has the same opinion about something. In case there is where is the source that says so?--Termer (talk) 07:45, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits by Igny 

message: Nug reverted the edits made by me (and 89.16.227.198) and wrote: "Undo some recent edits due to unreliable sourcing, for example, books by Richard Landwehr were previously determined to be unreliable. Please discuss on talk first."
the article still cites landwehr's books, i just fixed the links by adding the pages and the author, while the sources for the text that i added (; M. Laar. Estonia in World War II (2005). p. 30; ) seem to be reliable, so it would be more correct not to revert the edits, but to remove the sentences that cite landwehr from the article -Opostylov (talk), 23 January 2024 (UTC)
:Oh, okay, let me check and I'll fix it up. --Nug (talk) 10:01, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  reverted edits