Talk:Sexual enslavement by Nazi Germany in World War II

message: Are there sources for this article?  I might be a little hypocritcal here in just asking and wondering if there are without bothering to look myself, but i assume the creator of the article has some, and i've other things to do.jfg284 17:50, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically my sources were the Polish wiki stub and a documentary titled Kobiety łupem wojennym: Wehrmacht i prostytucja (Women as a War Prize: Wehrmacht and Prostitution) aired some time in September in Canal+. Halibutt 20:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Aright, sounds good...maybe link what you can in the article?  I'll put a "see also" to Joy Division (World War II), which i stumbled across somewhere (maybe german history stubs?) but in any case, yea.jfg284 20:45, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources?

message: Is there any legitimate historical proof (original documents, diaries, ...) for the existance of "german brothels" with polish "comfort women"? It astonishes me that the German Wikipedia, which usually tends to be covering German war crimes in an open and extensive manner does not know about "Soldatenhäuser", all sources happen to be Polish and all Google has to tell about this topic is Wikipedia Clones. As there are currently known and growing sentiments within the Polish Government and media, I'd be not suprised if that part is propaganda. 
If no actual proof for forced prostitution is given, that part of the article should be changed. -84.168.6.211 11:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proof, again?

message: During the recent AfD process Dhartung suggested we moved this article elsewhere and that this be better a general article on forced prostitution in Nazi Germany. However, so far it's focused on the forced prostitution and the armed forces rather than forced prostitution in general - and to be frank I'm pretty satisfied with such scope. What would others suggest?
In short, my reasoning is that the phenomenon of German concentration camps' brothels could be better explained elsewhere, in a separate article on Puffs, or whatever the title would be appropriate. However, we could safely broaden the scope of this article and include all in one. What do you think? //Halibutt 03:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, to stir up the discussion I'd like to point out that the current title seems the worst option out of all. What do others think? //Halibutt 00:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, given lack of response, I'm moving this article to Forced prostitution in German armed forces for lack of a better title (the one we currently have is out of the blue). //Halibutt 07:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name change? 

message: I am copying this discussion from the article for deletion page as I think it is relevant
--Jadger 23:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What a fruitful discussion between Jadger and Jadger... Seriously, is there a purpose you copied your statements here? //Halibutt 07:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: copied from article for deletion talk

message: I don't know if this link will work but I'll give it a try.
as can be seen by the link, it would be a much better source to go on since:
*it is available to the reader of this article
*it is not being selectively cited to paint this in the most heinous circumstances.
*it is on the whole of prostitution in Nazi Germany, rather than just on select cases like this article totally is.
As you can probably tell, I am in support of a rewrite of this article, because the sources provided previously are either unverifiable or highly dubious. -Jadger 05:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, feel free to add info from that source as well. However, take note that the sources we have already are neither unverifiable nor dubious, they are not taken selectively and the fact that this article is on forced prostitution, not on all prostitution. In fact the scope of the original article was even more narrow, but widening to the entire spectrum makes little sense to me. //Halibutt 21:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I oppose removal of sourced info the way you did. We could argue about the scope of this article, but territories occupied by Germans clearly belong here. //Halibutt 07:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Exactly one user supported such a name and the closing admin moved it here for some reason, perhaps unknowingly limiting the scope of the article. If you hadn't noticed, there's a naming discussion above. By your example, we could have a voting on whether to have the article at Poland or at Polska. Then comes some guy and moves it to Poles in Polska and then comes Jadger, cutting the article to pieces, leaving only the part relevant to the Poles in Polska. Strange, to say the least. //Halibutt 21:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

message: I propose moving the page to the title Forced prostitution by the Nazi state as the current title is ambiguous and implies that prostitutes were in the German army.  Secondly the forced prostitution was a product of the Nazi leadership not the German army as exists today; I feel this distinction should be made clearly. simonthebold 12:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The current title is in fact ambiguous. It should be changed to Sexual slavery enforced by Nazi Germany in WWII. --Poeticbent talk 16:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I think sexual slavery is more POV than forced prostitution, but the end is OK. simonthebold 00:48, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I get your point (about emotive eloquence) however, I have no idea what 'forced prostitution' is? In Wikipedia prostitution is described as a 'commercial sex trade' which would not apply here, because 'forced' is the opposite of 'commercial'. But if you read further down you'll find a mention about women "enslaved by the Imperial Japanese military and forced to work as unpaid prostitutes." That is the closest description so far of what we are dealing with here. --Poeticbent talk 06:29, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thinking about it your're right.  Sexual slavery is a more accurate.  But I think Sexual enslavement by the Nazi state in WWII might be a better title. simonthebold 13:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nazi isn't specific, better is "Nazi Germany" or even just "Germany" since not all of its officials were members of NSDAP --Molobo 12:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Support. There was more than one Nazi state in WWII. However, the article covers only Nazi German enslavement of women. --Poeticbent talk 15:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed move

message: The phrase that the subject was previously "largely taboo" is self-contradictory and verges on being "weasel words". Three of the sources referred to when mentioning "new publications by female researchers" are undated (see Notes 2, 3 & 4) Hugo999 (talk) 19:23, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weasel words 

message: Unless the recent move and total gutting of this well referenced article can be explained. The content should be restored. Much of the new text is completely unreferenced WP:original research. The article appears to have had a POV makeover to show only one view which is not shared universally at all. Polargeo (talk) 07:45, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes the article can be improved but moving a long standing article without any discussion and then completely rewriting it was not the way to do it. The article you created German brothels in World War II in doing this was and is essentially a different article. -Polargeo (talk) 06:38, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent gutting of article by Linksnational 

message: Yes the article should be clearer on differentiating sex slaves for inmates of the camps to those for soldiers. However, this does not change the title of the article as we are still talking about sexual enslavement and forced prostitution no matter which group it is. Changing it to "brothels" suggests that these women had a choice and were effectively paid. If in the brothels set up for soldiers the women had a choice and were paid then you are right that is a different article, but only that part. It is clear what Der Spiegel thinks "New Exhibition Documents Forced Prostitution in Concentration Camps" I see the title "forced" which means sexual enslavement. I agree the confusion between enslavement for soldiers and for inmates should be differentiated. Polargeo (talk) 07:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The Der Spiegel article and others give reliable evidence of forced prostitution. So if you want to create a new article on Nazi brothels then please do but don't keep trying to destroy this article be redirecting it there. I don't disagree that this article needs improving but please stop redirecting it to your new prefered article in an attempt to remove all of the content and references. Maybe the majority of prostitution was not forced, that is fine and is clear in your new article but this article is not an article on the majority of prostitution but on sexual enslavement which did happen and has plenty of references. Yes the article needs fixing and there are issues of Lagerbordell (camp brothel) and Wehrmachtsbordell (soldier's brothel) I am happy to spend some time fixing it though but I am not happy to see you remove all of the references of the long standing article and rewrite it according to your own POV. So please stick to editing your new article German brothels in World War II and desist from redirecting this one Polargeo (talk) 11:51, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with a most of what you say you are assuming I somehow agree with all of the text of the original article. However, many of the sources in the original article were good sources it was often the interpretation of them which was wrong. I would still like to fix the article which is about forced prostitution, not brothels. Polargeo (talk) 22:28, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some comments on improvement 

message: Here's the origin of the rape camp lie: . It doesn't seem, that the author knew, what he was talking about. There is no source confirming that and you will never find such a source, because it is a absolutely wrong allegation. -- Linksnational (talk) 13:36, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not saying the article was correct just that "camp brothel" is not the appropriate name to cover forced prostitution and effective sexual slavery in camps. There are plenty of sources on forced prostitution in the camps so I suggest improvement of this aspect of the article. You are more than welcome to set up a separate article about soldiers brothels. Polargeo (talk) 21:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi. Just to point out that the IP editor  -- or Linksnational not logged in -- has changed the lead so that it is no longer comprehensible. I'm hopeful you will be able to work through whatever differences of opinion may exist on this article. best, Shawn in Montreal (talk) 21:41, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I had noticed. I am inclined to wait a while. It is not possible to work on this at present. Polargeo (talk) 22:23, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rape Camp? LOL 

message: Can we please remove the stuff about brothels that Linksnational and the IP have added. This is not an article about brothels. I am more than happy to correct the errors in the original article but I cannot do this when every time I come to the article it has been moved, redirected or completely rewritten off topic. My reference to Der Spiegel was mocked as being to "the rainbow press for intellectuals" I assume Linksnational means it is not right wing enough as the additions he has made appear to be largely sourced from a right wing newspaper. I know the article was full of errors and I wish to correct them but the article I wish to correct has ceased to exist and has been replaced by what is a different topic. The name of the article could eventually be changed but I think Linksnational's articles on brothels should be separate. Polargeo (talk) 21:48, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Attacking a clearly reliable source like Der Spiegel is unsupportable, I agree. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 23:58, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: So what do you want to write about? The ugly German raping the world? The prostitution was organized in brothels. There were no rape camps. Even Der Spiegel knows that. And concerning my source: it's a liberal-conservative newspaper, not right wing. Stop that accusations. -- Linksnational (talk) 00:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't assume everyone who disagrees with you has extreme anti-German views. I have spent a lot of time in Germany and really love Germany as a country. I repeat I am not saying there were "rape camps" as was in the original article and this is one of the first things I would have changed. Many of the things you are attacking about the original article I agree with. However, I disagree with trying to turn an article on forced rape into an article on brothels. You obviously have done you best to remove the article and now appear to be trying to remove it by changing the subject, essentially writing a different article under the wrong title. Polargeo (talk) 06:47, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove stuff about brothels