Talk:Tupac Shakur/Archive 4

message: The Makaveli the Don album is in the wrong section.  It should be in the posthumously released section because it was released after his death.  Although he recorded the material before his death the album was released posthumously.  Having this album in the released studio section is misleading.]]</small></small>

</sup></sup>
</gallery>
</blockquote>
|}Fixed License2Kill 03:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Released Studio Albums Section

message: I'm trying to redirect "Tupac" here because when someone says tupac they mean 2pac Makaveli the Don Killuminati Shakur. But I'm having trouble with the header and keeping the disambiguation page a disambiguation page hahahahahha. HELP PlZ!?!
Looks like it's fixed now License2Kill 03:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: HELP

message: The text of this lawsuit is online somewhere, I don't remember where, but it maintains (and the court agreed) that the money alleged by Knight to have been for Tupac's bail (1.4 million), was not paid in full by Knight or Death Row, but by Interscope Records, with a 300 thousand dollar payment and the potential earning power of Shakur as collateral.  Knight's assertations that he or Death Row bailed Tupac out of jail in return for the 3 album deal were and are the beginning of the basis of the lawsuit the estate filed.
 LoganRage 11:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: '''The Lawsuit against Suge/Death Row/Kenner'''

message: Section break, this is getting ridiculous. Please sign your name with four tildes, without the nowiki tags, ok? Otherwise we just see four tildes. See WP:SIGN, thanks. Ok, what is the issue on the name? Is there a source for the LPS name at all, what is it, and what precisely does it say? Thanks much. KillerChihuahua?!? 01:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow dude, been a while.  I see you all have added a lot of good info to the Pac article.  Very nice work.  What's up with this old LPS argument again?  I thought that was settled like six months ago? SqlPac 00:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll have to check that book out.  I assume that book is properly sourced in the article.69.116.249.76 23:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll check that book out too.  The fact that it's published is good enough for Wikipedia, so that settles that as far as Wikipedia is concerned.  It would be interesting to know where the authors got their information, even though Wikipedia doesn't require anything so thorough.  I think I'll head over to the article on "Earth" now and write up that Earth is the center of the Universe and flat, as this information has been published in many reliable sources over the past couple thousand years, making them "verifiable" by Wikipedia's policy. Ha. (Sort of). 69.116.249.76 23:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The most reliable source?  What's the criteria for that?  One might argue that thousands of prolific philosophers, astronomers, scientists, clergy, Popes, kings, scholars and teachers who have published their works over the course of hundreds of years might be considered "reliable"...  What's the Wikipedia criteria for "most reliable" exactly? SqlPac 02:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tupac's birth name, part II

message: This discussion is continued from the archive because apparently we haven't finished it.
I deleted, for a third time, the unverified and unsourced statement that "Family and friends plan to spread the remaining ashes during a ceremony in Soweto, South Africa, where Nelson Mandela will be attending."  There is absolutely no evidence to support the statement that Nelson Mandela will be attending the ceremony.  User License2Kill has added the statement about Mandela back three times now and has not provided a reliable source for the statement.  The user has given this as a source: http://www.allhiphop.com/hiphopnews/?ID=6135.  Yet a reading of the source reveals that there is nothing to support this statement. The source states "During the eight-day trip, Afeni Shakur was scheduled to meet with leaders like Nelson Mandela, Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, Miriam Makeba and others."  That says nothing about Mandela being at the spreading of Tupac's ashes in 2007.  I have surveyed the South African media and have found no evidence to support the assertion. I suggest that the statement read: "Family and friends plan to spread the remaining ashes in Soweto, South Africa, on June 16, 2007 which is Shakur's 36th birthday" which is verifiable with the source provided.  Can others please add their thoughts on this here so that we can resolve this issue. Thank you.  Lionchow 20:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep it deleted. L2K, find a source and post it here on TALK for discussion, or drop it. Edit warring over this is not helping the article. KillerChihuahua?!? 20:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

text: That's a post from a public user - anything under the "articulate" header is like a blog. Not a RS. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Hey, what about Pretoria News? Anyone know anything about this source?  KillerChihuahua?!? 23:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok we now have the Sydney Morning Herald and Pretoria News. IMHO we add it, and add both references. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Concur, the statement in the article must reflect what the sources say.  KillerChihuahua?!? 09:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I edited the Mandela thing out until we can source it, also changing the postponed date from 1996 to 2006. --Guinnog 09:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nicely done, also appreciate the date fixes. KillerChihuahua?!? 09:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spreading Tupac's ashes in South Africa (again) 

message: I'm surprised there isn't at least a mention of the Makaveli line of clothes Afeni released. I'll have to do some further investigation. As a side note; I have a Makaveli hoodie that's black with a gray carpeted Makaveli M on the front, covered in red, white, and blue paint. The first day I wore that to school, a friend commented that it looked like someone had thrown up the flag on me. That was the last day I wore that to school. --Mysekurity 03:44, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Forget what your friend says, Makaveli Branded clothing is top stuff.--Easy duz it 10:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Makaveli clothes 

message: "2 of Americas Most Wanted" by 2Pac has a lyric "if you got it better flaunt it" this is interesting because Notorious B.I.G used the same set of lyrics in his Hit song "Hypnotize." I find this interesting because these Rap/HipHop succeses did not llke each other, but by "chance" they used this same idea around the same time. Any thoughts?
It's a simple phrase License2Kill 13:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ^^ He means common. It's a common phrase. I wouldn't look to deeply into it myself. --King Bee 14:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  2Pac and Biggie share same lyrics 

message: There should be a section on Tupac's relationship with Stretch (from the Live Squad).
He was a great friend before and during the Thug Life-time. He was also friends with The Notorious B.I.G.
Stretch was at the sceene the first time Tupac got shot and robbed. 2pac said that Anthony Stretch Walker was involved in planning this backstab-move, while Biggie and Puffy defended their friend.
Pac said in the song Against All Odds:
"And that nigga that was down for me, restin dead
Switch sides, guess his new friends wanted him dead"
I've read this in a lot of places, that Stretch was brutally killed by multiple Shotgun-shots exactly, on the day, one year after the 2pac-robery.
There is no reason for the section, you can't make a section for everyone of his friends License2Kill 22:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And definitely couldn't make a section for every one of his enemies!
Come on, it wasn't just any friend. He was accused by Tupac himself to be involved in his first shooting. And he was killed exactly one year after the shooting. Also he had a big role in all albums before, and including, the Thug Life-album.
Liquid Corpse 17:06 24 September 2006 (CET)
So was Jimmy Henchman and Walter "King Tut" Johnson but we don't have sections on them License2Kill 16:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Keep this artical we need as much information about Tupac's life we can get.--Easy duz it 10:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stretch 

message: In the picture here of pac's 95 mug shot, on his left cheek, theres a noticable streak going down the side of his face.  Is this a scar? Tupac was shot by travis b
I think it's just the photo. License2Kill 04:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tupac's 1995 mugshot 

message: We can use them solely to illustrate the album in question. That is, it's okay to display them here, on the Tupac Shakur discography page, and on the album's page itself. It is not fair use to display them on your user page, say. As such, I will remove them from the "to do" list. --King Bee 15:58, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the album covers for "All Eyez on Me" and "2Pacalypse Now" are being used to illustrate the the album(s) in question, because they are both used in the sections were it talks about the respective albums. --Ted87 06:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair Use on Album Covers

message: I wonder why this article doesn't mention his religious beliefs? He often mentioned Jesus in his lyrics, and he even had Tattoo of a huge cross on his back. Doesn't that count for anything? EliasAlucard|Talk 17:38, 30 Sept, 2006 (UTC)
:I think the reason his religous beliefs aren't included n the artice is because it isn't that relevent to the article. Plus there is some confusion by some people has to what his religon/religoius beliefs were (which may actually be good reason to include it in the article). In his songs and other places he talks about God all the time, but in one or two he down plays religon all together. --Ted87 01:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He did a song called "Hail Mary", does that make him Catholic?  If you want to add it, I'd recommend researching his religious beliefs (you might have to dig a little deeper than one tattoo) and writing it up.
Not really worth mentioning in the article, but he believed in God but not the church or a religion License2Kill 19:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Religious beliefs?

message: Is there any source (other than an interested one) for this:
"There is much controversy to the ruling of the case, the judge said that he did not think Tupac was guilty but sentenced him because of all of Shakur's recent run-ins with the law."
Instead, in the February 8, 1995 newspapers:
The New York Times reported that:Justice Daniel P. Fitzgerald said, "This was an act of brutal violence against a helpless woman." He said that Mr. Shakur had been the "instigator" of an "arrogant abuse of the victim" which culminated an escalating display of arrogance as he pursued his career.
The Washington Post reported that:A New York judge characterized the crime as "an act of violence against a helpless woman," Reuter reported, and added that the rapper "must bear full responsibility for the assault.
The LA Times reported that:Fitzgerald turned down requests to allow the two men to remain free on bail pending appeals. In pronouncing sentence, he said Shakur's "arrogant abuse of his victim follows a pattern of escalating violence as his career progressed."
I didn't see anything suggesting that the judge did not think Tupac was guilty; I am going to (try to) change the article.  If there is a news or other original source for the current version, we can revise. Cka3n
Although the prior version referred to a book, it did not have a page cite and it somewhat implausible (a trial judge sentenced a defendant in a high profile case while publicly admitting he did not think the defendant was guilty?).
I will add all three full newspaper citations to the article.  Anyone who has a contradicting source, please feel free to provide a citation and a quote (and if the source's source is not apparent, please provide any citations given by the source itself) and then we can resolve any actual conflicts.
Cka3n 23:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexual assault trial 

message: *"Killuminati" - before Tupacs death he wrote this song where he raps about the Illuminati
*Tupac made an album known as "The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory" which means "I'm The Don, I Will Kill The Illuminati" or something similar. "The 7 Day Theory" relates to how long it took to make the album.
Amazon.com: The Don Killuminati
--Easy duz it 10:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Songs/albums/lyrics relating to conspiracy 

message: *www.alleyezonme.com
--Easy duz it 10:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alleyezone.com, aka 2Pac online, is a poorly sourced fan site. They also have an article titled "Tupac is alive" so please don't suggest using that site as a source. They do not meet Wikipedia criteria for reliable sources. KillerChihuahua?!? 03:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh and i suppose you know exactly what sites fall into Wikipeida's "reliable sources" do you. You never seem to make an artical of your own but choose to criticise others for making a contribution. Your a complete waste of space, get off Wiki. --Easy duz it 11:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources: 

message: The citation is completely unreliable.  It estimates around that, and like I said, unreliable.  If it was RIAA certified 7x platinum and sold in total 4x that worldwide, that would be a record.  This would also make this one of the best selling albums of all time, which has never been indicated by any record company, nor by any certification.  I am removing worldwide sales until proper citation used.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Leethal (talk • contribs) 12:09, 20 October 2006  (UTC)
:Why don't you look it up on RIAA and put in the correct figures? Also, please remember to sign your posts using four tildes (~~~~). KillerChihuahua?!? 12:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What court documents? KillerChihuahua?!? 18:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Is there a link to this source? --Ted87 19:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory did NOT sell 28 million. 

message: It was believed by many listeners that in the first few seconds of the song "Intro/Bomb First (My Second Reply) on the album The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory, a muffled Shakur can be heard saying  but multiple audio tests and confirmation from a member of The Outlawz proved that it was indeed "Shoulda shot me". Many people believed the voice said "Suge shot me" or "Suge shot 'em". This, along with reports of Knight's strong-arm tactics with artists and other illegal business tactics including involvement with the Mob Piru Bloods street gang gave rise to a theory that Knight was complicit in Shakur's murder, as it was reported that Suge Knight owed Tupac up to seventeen million dollars in back royalties, but no evidence has been provided to support this theory.
It should be put back only if and when reliable sources can be found to support the claims made. JDoorjam     Talk 20:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well this is a controvercial audio clip considering its very hard to hear exactly what he says and all the conspiracy theorists claiming it was "Suge". So a source would definetely be nice considering how many people argue about this.  - Tutmosis 14:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I have removed the followingsection because it lacked sources

message: The First and Third Paragraphs at the beginning of the article seem to have a lot of the same stuff in them; When the third paragraph talks about his songs being about growing up in the ghetto, racial equality, etc, it is merely the same information as the first paragraph, restated. Mnpeter 00:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1st/3rd Paragraphs 

message: there is another "2Pac album" comin out. Its a Scarface/Tupac Album called '2Face'
it is due late 2006 and is co-produced by Suge Knight and J-Prince (of rap-a-lot). It is on page 122 of October 2006 issue of XXL. "JULY" Marcus 13:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 2Face

message: Well I can't put up the tag myself because of the protection but I would like to suggest merging Tupac Shakur timeline into this main article. Maybe some admin can put the tag in there for me. Thanks, Pascal.Tesson 17:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  mergefrom 

message: I have written a four paragraph paper on 2Pac's tattoos. Can I/When/How post it up? Thank You
H ramos36 06:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, H ramos36 - I've posted a welcome message on your talk page. That has some links which will help you figure out how to do things around Wikipedia. On the subject of tattoos, we can approach this several ways. First, do you have sources, or is it original research? By original research, that means you looked at pictures and figured it out. KillerChihuahua?!? 11:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tattoos and what significance they have

message: I would have assumed the big thing he's known for and therefore a dominant part of this article would be his legend, i.e. how much more prolific he has been in death than in life, how much money his owners & family have made since his death from releasing music that obviously Tupac didn't consider worthy of release, and how ubiquitous his posters are within certain regions and demographics.  I mean, none of the universally accepted greats, those with 100x the listenership--Elvis, the Beatles, Marley--have released that many official albums after the end of their band. So to me he's a little more like Selena--not necessarily as important musically or politically as he just fit the right niche at the right week, and in a business sense, that floors me much more than his music.  The cult of personality, the demagoguery, that there are people who think he's still alive--that's what he's famous for in most of the nation.  Shouldn't we mention that?  --19:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: With all due respect, 2Pac was the top hiphop/rap artist at the time of his death. Selena was beginning a career which may or may not have ever been particularly successful. Without the talent and the success, there would be no legend. Finally, as interesting as all this might be for casual conversation, unless a reputable music commentator stated that precise thing in a highly reliable source, it is all original research - specifically excluded from use on Wikipedia. KillerChihuahua?!? 20:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly --Easy duz it 21:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Maybe I'm just white..., but isn't his legend the important part?

message: I think the Intro is way too long as all the information about his life and career is already mentioned in each of the separate sections that follow. May I suggest we cut it down. Shakirfan 23:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support this trimming. Anyone else have a comment? KillerChihuahua?!? 12:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro is too long 

message: Tupac was a true legend. He will forever be one of the realist and truest MCs ever. I still love his 2pacalypse Now CD! Tupac was a "real" musician because he talked about poverty, and racism. He wasn't like these other loser rappers today talking about cars and clothes, he was an epic rapper. When Tupac said Thug life, he meant it as a meaning to improve the impoverished community and have people rise up against their own problems in life. Basically, he meant it as a positive thing. But the Media, and all those nutheads like Bob Dole and Dan Quayle, kept making Tupac to be negative. They kept trying to portray him as this evil person, wherelse he was exactly opposite. Tupac to me, represented the intelligence of the black race that the society tries to hinder and destroy. He represented the unheard of voices and the consciousness rarely seen in a lot of rappers. That's why the media and the society kept bothering him, because they knew that he was telling the truth. As Tupac said in the "Rebel of the Underground": "The world's most dangerous weapon is the educated black man"! Apparently, he was right, and that is why they feared him. Sadly, the media and the press alike were not going to quick untill Pac no longer existed, but you know what, his legacy will last forever, and as much as the ignorant society may whine and act stupid, I will always remember him as a big brother-RIP Tupac FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!
what the f*ck has that have to do with imporving this damn article? PS. SIGN YOUR COMMENT
Apo2Pac 01:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: Paragraphs 1 and 3 need to be combined, two of the sentances are almost exactly the same Bigbadbyte 07:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up 

message: dont you thinl that the rose volume 1 and 2 should be under other albums? or atleast mentioned in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.114.3.235 (talk • contribs).
Done License2Kill 04:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: Why does the background information first list his birth name and only in small text lists his real (official) name.
I think it is first more important to list the person's official name and only then, in small text, to note the birth name.  Northern
"Tupac Amaru Shakur" is in bold License2Kill 20:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tupac's name

message: This real autopsy image of his mutilated corpse  is in fact a real photograph, leaked by a source in the Police Department, and published in Cathy Scott's "The Killing of Tupac Shakur". Shouldn't his autopsy and the image be mentioned somewhere in the article. It was removed long ago from there (like 2003) and I don't understand why it's not there anymore. Power level (Dragon Ball) 16:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I though some reporter got it from the hospital to put in her book, when was it proven fake? Also to the main poster, why do we need to prove his dead, all the official sources already state it to be so. — Tutmosis 00:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  How can he rap about his own death? Its like he knew he was gonna die! RealG187 21:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know I'm going to die...I'm pretty sure everybody does. 70.162.66.142 11:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proof that 2Pac is DEAD! 

message: I have removed the reference to the '2005 book' released on theories that 2pac are alive. This 'book' is self-published, available to order only online, and uses a copyrighted image on its cover. An amazon reviewer claims that his order was personally signed, adding that it was "creepy" - and the official website includes explanations of such bizzare claims as a '10 day theory,' which incorporates the supposed claim that "Jesus Christ died on the cross after 7 days and was resurrected after 3" - Clearly this is not credible, and probably constitutes original research. perhaps a link to the book belongs on the 'Seven Day Theory' page, but not on the mainstream article. Brando130 15:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2pac lives book 

message: Perhaps this shouldn't be noted but, 2Pac did do an appearance as "Piccolo", a character in the television series, A Different World (not related to the Piccolo character in Dragon Ball Z in case anyone asks). I've never seen the show, but did some research about it and saw a video on YouTube, yet, I think it should be mentioned somewhere in the article. What does anyone think? Any thoughts? Power level (Dragon Ball) 18:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Different World 

message: I put the years he was with each label back after they were removed License2Kill 05:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Until an admin says so, no dates need to be present.  It is user choice, and the dates, particularly pertaining to Death Row, are inaccurate.  I know this for a fact.  He is still registered on their artist roster both in materials granted to the public (Official Websites, roster posters, etc.) and on Death Row documents.  Because he died before his contract was up and Death Row does own the master Death Row Recordings, Suge can still legally list him as a Death Row artist.  Nothing was ended in 2002. UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 19:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I already explained that he is still on Death Row and whether you believe it or not is irrelevant.  Fact is he is still legally listed on the roster.  And like I said, till an admin tells me not to change it I'm still going to put it back because it is not correct.  Wikipedia is not here to release false information to the public. And Tupac never signed with Amaru.  It is the legal estate of Shakur which established a company by way of Afeni Shakur.  She owns the majority of his masters, this is true, but Suge still legally owns the Death Row masters. Therefore, because of the death before fulfillment of contractual obligations, and the ownership of the masters LEGALLY he is still considered an in-house artist on Death Row.  This is why Joint ventures between Interscope, Amaru, and Death Row stood for those albums.  Also, of course because his albums were released on Death Row he is still technically signed.  If that wasn't the case then Death Row would have to file it, and state in the credits that the material on the album had been licensed from Amaru Entertainment and/or that "2Pac appears courtesy of Amaru/Interscope Records". At no point in any Posthumous Death Row 2pac release was any kind of said statement made.  It is a matter of Law, and because of that I can and will correct the page.  If you need to know first hand, contact:
Death Row Records
PO Box 3037
Beverly Hills, CA 90212 UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 21:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually I am not new to Wikipedia and the insinuation is inappropriate. And it is the other way around, you obviously do not know how contracts nor legal standings on artists material or masters work, how they pertain the artists standings on a label, Licensing recorded material to an outside party, credit recognition, or contractual obligations and protocol in general.  Furthermore I would know since not only do I work in the Record Industry but for a time worked for Death Row Records itself, and now work with Smoke-A-Lot/Rap-A-Lot Records, which you probably know keeps close ties to Death Row.  In that light I am very well versed in industry legal standings, protocol and in the specific issue at hand.  So please do not assume on my person in the future.  A good amount of other artists pages do not have years signed info, incorrect info, nor do I see where it is mandatory as a rule. If he was not still on the Death Row roster then it would have been illegal for Death Row to list him so on various official media including the official website and roster posters as was done for so many years.  Nevermind filing information for city, state, and federal records and taxes.  I already explained how he legally is still on Death Row, gave information on how to contact for conformation, and will continue to correct wrong information. If all that needs to be changed is the date information and not removed then that is the compromise (Even though it is redundant since he is at present time still listed on each companies roster).  And again contact Death Row with above information if you feel you still need further confirmation, instead of throwing around loose insinuations like calling someone "new".  Especially since I have backed up my claim with legal stature and a source of information confirmation.
UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 22:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

text: This is just going around in circles.  I already negated each argument made and cited the lack of knowledge on the said bold statements above pertaining to contract laws.  When I say he still legally is on Death Row (On paper is the simplest terms I can make it) my 3rd party perspective essentially comes from the horses mouth (I also explained that above).  Your point on Pac's life is irrelevant because those songs were either not recorded on Death Row or purchased from Death Row.  Because he is dead what rights the estate gets does not overturn legal status on an artist roster which is why Death Row listed him even on their official site till it was closed in 2006 (the site, not the company itself), nevermind the date that keeps being reposted as 2002.  Find an official source with legal ties to his material that claims Tupac is no longer officially recognized by Death Row's roster.  That is the only chance you have of solidifying your point.  Anything beyond that is an attempt to keep the article a certain way regardless of fact. UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 08:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither of you has provided a source. Take the years out until a reliable source is located. If there is a disagreement about content, the onus is on the person wishing to include the information to source that information. KillerChihuahua?!? 09:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True, cannot deny that. The source would be the official Death Row site, but because of internal conflicts at the label it's reduced to a one page ad right now. So I agree, until information confirming said information is presented, the years should be taken down (as I initially took action to do). UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 11:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I Agree with UDStyle, I remember seeing Tupac's name on deathrowrecords.net last year.  That would count as an reliable source to back up the claim that Tupac is still a Death Row artist. But like KillerChihuahua said no source was provided either user. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.4.232.124 (talk) 00:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text: No, that whole argument is negated just off the existence of the  Nu Mixx Klassicz, 2pac Live, and Live @ the House of Blues Albums, which technically is considered new material as remixes and live performances because they were previously unreleased. All released on Death Row after 2002.  So it's safe to say they can and have released his music.  And of course because he was listed at deathrowrecords.net he still has contractual ties to the label.  They couldn't legally put his name on that section of the site if that wasn't true.  Your claim is for lack of a better word unreasonable and is not supported by fact. Furthermore I have located an official source via Archive.org that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that 2Pac was officially listed on the Death Row artist roster past 2002. The following page is an archived copy of the artist page at the official Death Row Records website dated Jan. 5th, 2005, 3 years after the the 2002 date previously listed here: http://web.archive.org/web/20050105024743/www.deathrowrecords.net/artists.html.  It can be navigated from this page clicking on the date and navigating to the artist page. Clearly 2pac is listed at the top of the artist page.  Ergo, the the debate about 2002 being 2Pac's last year has run it's course.  However this just disproves the 2002 point, there is currently no visual online source that proves that as of today whether 2Pac is or is not listed as an official artist on Death Row Records.  Because of that, the date which cannot be proven true or false should remain off this wiki article. UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 19:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Unreleased is unreleased. Remixes and live performances have no ties to original publishing and rights to master recordings of the original songs. This is considered as much new material as any other Posthumously Released alubm on paper, which is what Wikipedia gravitates towards as opposed to fan perspective.  It is a separate entity. And a comparison to Dre or Snoop is irrelevant.  There is no similarities to those situations. The Pac's Life material was either material sold exclusively to Amaru from Death Row, Verses and song's already released on various projects including DPG Recordz projects, or the masters taken by Daz Dillinger when he abruptly left the label in 1999.  It was documented that he sold them to Afeni Shakur.  But none of that matters now. It's already been proven and backed by a reliable  source that he was officially listed on the Death Row artist roster long after 2002. Most importantly, all that matters as far as wikipedia is concerned is that the source given above is a source that is accepted by wikipedia standards.  The only subject left in question is if it can be proven if 2pac, as of today, is or is not officially attached to Death Row Records as far as contractual ties go. The subject has moved on and until a reliable source can be found to show he is no longer on Death Row contractually, the years will stay off since Wikipedia requires that 'the onus is on the person wishing to include the information to source that information' as KillerChihuahua stated. UDStyle Stranded On Death Row 21:29, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text: You can think that if you want, but it is true, and no, It's just that you have a fans perspective of the details and you don't totally understand how it works on a legal level.  The fact that you mentioned the trial outcome is indication you don't know much on the production issues of the Pac's Life album.  I'll break it down; the majority of the new songs were tracks sold to Afeni from Daz Dillinger who took the masters from the Death Row vault when he abruptly departed from the label in 1999.  The others were tracks that Suge sold to Afeni but only after a period.  That's why there was a delay in the Pac's Life production in 2006.  Suge was considering Afeni's offer and finally gave in. Look it up.  The tracks were not licensed from Death Row, they were bought.  As for the statement that Death Row couldn't legally release any of Tupac's music anymore, believe me if that were so, sites like SOHH, AllHipHop, Worldwideconnected, and Streethop would be all over that story real quick.  I understand you're a dedicated Tupac fan.  That's cool.  But the facts of the matter are against you.  And all this you can find out first hand by using that contact info for Death Row I posted above.  More then that it won't help the years to go back up which I know there isn't any official source that would be the key to getting them back up. And you keep saying I'm wrong, feel free to prove it as opposed to repeating yourself and not backing it up. Either way I'm done debating this for now.  My point was made, the right action exercised, and I'll check in for any further info or closureUDStyle Stranded On Death Row 20:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Put the Years Back

message: Hi, I'm new here and i read all of Wikipedia's guidelines. That said, i had to edit the part of the first paragraph where it says "he has been ranked by fans, critics and industry insiders as the greatest rapper ever. Now granted, Shakur is definetly up there. and his greatness deserves to be mentioned in the article, but it is unfair to support this sentence with two fan polls and say "critics and industry insiders" agree. I also think that is wrong to put that greatest ever tag into an encyclopideic article because someone who reads this article and doesn't know about rap will think he's the absolute, undisputed, best rapper ever, while that is not the case.
This has been discussed before. It does not say "He is the greatest rapper". It says "He has been ranked as the greatest rapper" which is fact License2Kill 00:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We could remove the POV problems by inserting the ranking source into the statement.  Rklawton 02:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The "many people" bit doesn't fly and falls within the list of terms (others include "some say" or "experts agree" blah blah blah) that prompt immediate removal by any seasoned editor from articles.  Just cite the source - like "XYZ magazine" rated him the #1 rapper" - etc.  It's verifiable, and assuming the source satisfies WP:RS, then it's pretty much bullet proof.  The full sentence reproduced above is far to POV the way it reads.  Naming the source, on the other hand, takes away all that and solves the problem.  Rklawton 04:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Why not include the most significant source then?  "XYZ and others have ranked him #1" etc.?  Then you can provide references to each of the other significant sources for this ranking.  It'll remove the perception of POV and add to the statement's credibility.  Or don't you have any sources?  Rklawton 04:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: I have a huge question

message: Shouldn't someone change Tupac's main picture. I mean he was only 25 years old when he died and he looks like a 50 year old man in that picture. It doesn't make him look lika rapper either. 
Use this pciture. This makes him look like a rapper
http://www.hitemup.com/pictures/view.php3?id=bandana01.jpg&gal=0&pg=1&count=24 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thegame455 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tupac picture 

message: This site claims Tupac is the most imitated rapper of all time according to Henry Adaso who is a hip-hop critic.
http://rap.about.com/od/top10albums/ss/EssentialAlbums_2.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.68.225.102 (talk) 20:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Besides changing the picture 

message: I thought their was a section on confirmed unreleased tupac songs. Anyways under Pac's Life it says their is an album in 2007 going to be released in the 1st quarter which I doubt since it's a month away from being over and their is nothing confirmed about it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.68.225.102 (talk) 17:59, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  tupac unreleased 

message: how many songs do you estimate still aren't released and where were you informed that the album was pushed back to the fall —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.68.225.102 (talk) 22:18, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  unreleased songs 2 

message: The Game talks about tupac's life and how he studied his career like the SATs and he says he feels like Pac.
http://www.nobodysmiling.com/hiphop/interview/86916.php
ja rule tries to copy tupac and steals his beats like hail mary and pain
http://www.tupac-online.com/News/0-258475-00.html
http://www.tupac-online.com/News/0-1381-00.html
Don't you think putting out a paragraph on the songs people enjoyed is irrelevant. Is that part of his style and influence. the songs like 20 people enjoyed. I could get some more information on his influence because his influence is huge
Please sign your comments. Yes, it is part of the style and influence. License2Kill 01:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  the game and Ja Rule source 

message: What religion was Pac? On the page about his mother Afeni it sais she converted to Islam and was a Muslim when she gave birth to him, his last name Shakur comes from Arabic and means "greatful(to God)", but he had a big tatoo with a cross on his back I think and there are pictures of him having a cross over his neck. Also he made the song "Hail Mary" but Muslims belive in Mary to she just doesn´t play that big of a roel in the religion like with Catholics. 
I am just asking.
Peace —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.217.95.119 (talk) 01:59, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion? 

message: What the hell happened to Tupac being ranked the greatest rapper ever next to eminem. Eminem is not on tupac's level
It was vandalism, a lot of Eminem fans on Wikipedia. License2Kill 20:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2pac 

message: I noticed that on Pac's life it said T.I. idolized Pac. Shouldn't he be listed on the influences —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.68.225.102 (talk) 23:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another tupac influence 

message: how do you get full protection for tupac's article —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thegame455 (talk • contribs) 01:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  protection 

message: can you get the admninistrators to protect it —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thegame455 (talk • contribs) 01:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  administrators 

message: In 1995 Master P produced hip hop's first double disc, 'Down South Hustlers: Bouncin' & swingin' Tha Value Pack Compilation', a year before 2pac's 'All Eyez on Me'.  Though I doubt it, I'm not too sure if there were any double disc hip hop albums in between.  No disrespect to the late great 2pac, just some fyi. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.8.168.197 (talk) 00:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  All Eyez on Me is not the first double disc in hip hop history 

message: Was he a Blood? I just wonder because he allmost allways wore that same flag that the bloods. He allway had that same flag that the bloods got. So was he a blood? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.152.117.49 (talk) 16:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blood conetions????? 

message: I think we should at least metion his birthname as it's written in the "Report Of Investigation" of his death - Report Of Investigation
in the middle towards the end of the first line you can clearly see "AKA Lesane Parish Crooks". 7upac 12:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See the previous section of this talk page for more discussion of this. --Flex (talk|contribs) 16:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Interesting. Other sites seem to have this same coroner's report, with the AKA on it as well. Has this been authenticated? Maybe we should put LPC in as an alias? (it says AKA, not birth name). Good find. -Mysekurity 21:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that would be a good compromise until it can be confirmed as his birth name. --Flex (talk|contribs) 22:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems reasonable to me. I'll ask L2K -Mysekurity 01:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's amazing how we come back full circle :)  I posted this same info may moons ago, but didn't get a positive response on it.  At the time, in addition to the coroner's report, I also had a copy of the LVPD police report of the incident which lists "AKA LPC" as well.  I had suggested listing it as an AKA in the article, but some people want to list it as birth name and that's that.  Ah well, hope you have better luck than I did with all that.SqlPac 03:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks for discussing this. I do want to say, however, that the coroner's report says that it's an "AKA" (which the field says on the page), plus I haven't heard "Parish Lesane" from anywhere but you. Previously on the article, it said "Lesane Parish", as do the overwhelming majority of Google results. Googling "Parish Lesane Crooks" returns the Tupac wiki article (followed by the RfC) as the top results. #3 is a quiz which lists "Lesane Parish Crooks" as his birth name. I see that the "Lesane Parish Crooks" name floats around a lot of trivia sites, but the reason I'm hesitant to leave it in the article is that we have no confirmation from something like the New York Times or other reputable publication. -Mysekurity 03:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Despite your protestations to the contrary, calling "SUM PPL" involved in this discussion "IGNORNAT" is at best uncivil and at worst a personal attack and in either case is unacceptable (see WP:TPG#Behavior_that_is_unacceptable). Please observe the rules of wikiquette here. Also, please don't type in all caps (see WP:TPG#Good_practice). --Flex (talk|contribs) 13:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The external link works fine. There is no need to re-upload the picture to Wikipedia. That said, we have no verification that that is authentic, nor does it state that the "AKA" is his birth name. I had offered to include it as an AKA, but L2K was less than thrilled. That said, is anyone else bothered by the fact that there are a bunch of brand new users coming to this page to weigh in first? Socks? Meat? -Mysekurity 07:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tupac's Birth Name (Report Of Investigation) 

message: Why did you put Tupac's legal controversy in the intro and put it down again in legal issues. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.68.225.102 (talk) 18:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  article question 

message: tupac has an official cloting line called MAKAVELI BRANDED, made by Afeni Shakur
offical site
myspace site —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Peterm1991 (talk • contribs) 20:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  tupac clothing line 

message: THE last accurate numbers were coleccted back in 1998, when will we ever know how much he has sold to this day? Is the RIAA still counting his album sales or will we never know for the rest of eternity how many records he has sold?
sign ur posts, its because afeni is a tight ass riaa doesnt update after a certian amount and the label has to pay for it i think -- Supreme euphanasia 22:00, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why Do They Not KEEP 2Pac's album sales up to date? 

message: u ever heard the saying "if it aint broke dont fix it" -- Supreme euphanasia 22:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why the need for all there merges 

message: i think we should make a section about his family and another section about his Endorsements and projects as in 50 Cents article
*Non-Stop Productions
*Joshua's Dream Corporation
*Thug Nation
*24/7 Productions 
*Out Da Gutta Records
*Amaru Entertainment 
--Peterm1991 10:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  sections to add to this artile 

message: *http://www.thugz-network.com/Tupac~Shakur~Facts.php 
*http://www.donkilluminati.com/alivetheories.htm
--Peterm1991 10:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  very useful links 

message: Is it true that pac used to read books in prison?
:Sign your posts. Yes it's true, why is it so unbelievable?  He claimed to have done some of his best reading in jail. -Phoenix 18:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Books 

message: Since pac's life went gold shouldnt we add to the intro and say that he has sold 73 or 74 million and then add the .5 since pac's life has went gold worldwide? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.244.187.37 (talk) 19:36, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should we update Tupac's wprldwide sales by .5? 

message: How come there's no mention of Pac's daughter in the article? Son of Kong
wasnt a big part of his life
West coast Ridaz$$ 23:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tupac's Daughter 

message: Anyone considered a tupac in popular culture section? He's probably the rapper most alluded to in music, movies and stand-up comedy.
::That seems right to me. Skillz187 04:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tupac in popular culture 

message: What did 2pac thougth about white people?--91.152.117.187 22:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably what every other thug of the early '90s thought.  Draw your own conclusions. -Phoenix 23:30, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2pac white people?