Talk:AK-47/Archive 1

message: I've moved the previous discussions to Talk:AK-47/PreviousDiscussion because myself and several others feel that the old Talk page has become overly long and rambling, with multiple revistings of previously settled subjects. I think that it would be best for new discussion to take place here. If someone would like to revisit debates from the previous discussion, those could be copied and pasted to here without making the whole page unreadable. Thank you. CynicalMe 16:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Previous Discussion 

message: I've been writing some pages and expanding others on the variants that are linked to in the table (Production Abroad). Help and input is always appreciated. CynicalMe 22:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Production Abroad 

message: I think the issue of licensing is one that we should expand upon. I'd like to include information on exactly who and where licences have been granted for production of the AK and variants, and compare that with unlicensed copies. CynicalMe 17:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You reverted my edit, which I based on the articles ,  (the articles are in Russian). I will look for more details (written in English if possible) later, but I am sure my edit had merit. (Igny 18:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't remove it, I gave it its own section because I thought it was important. Please add those sources to the article CynicalMe 18:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, sorry, I misread your edit. (Igny 18:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Licensing 

message: I've added the three variants allowed under Canadian Firearms legislation.  The source is the Canadian Firearms Center Fact Sheet which covers restricted and prohibited firearms.  The specific Order in Council covering the AK-47 and variants is Former Prohibited Weapons Order No. 13, which can be found in the citation link as well as an external link at the bottom of the Page.
65.95.118.215 18:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the citation on the Valmets. It is much appreciated. CynicalMe 18:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legal Status: Canadian Law 

message: Should we have a sep. article for Cultural Influence of the AK-47? CynicalMe 08:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cultural Influence 

message: Where? Folks, the AK-47 is dead. Only its clones could survive. --jno 11:46, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, the original wording was kind of vague. What was meant what that weapons based on the design are still in production. I've fixed it. CynicalMe 22:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  it is in production to this day 

message: Info should be added in the history section about:
1.Combat use (impact on global conflicts like the Vietnam war, or regional and civil wars in Africa)
2.Why the AK-47 was great (in the 1950s and later)
3.Why the AK-47 is not so great (in the begining of the XXI century, why is it inferior to newer assult rifles like G-36) Mieciu K 20:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. But what do you mean by "impact" on global conflicts? For the most part, infantry weapons do not determine the outcome of wars.CynicalMe 20:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Usually not but for example during the Vietnam war the AK-47 gave the vietrnamese side the chance to engage american ground forces at almost equall terms (not counting air and artillery support). And I have heard that in Africa there are AK's used in civil wars on a daily basis that have not seen a gunsmith for 30 years (if not for the AK-47 wars in such places might have looked totaly different). Mieciu K 20:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right about the AK being used in Africa and its durability. However, I dispute that anything would be different had it not been there.The fact is that in most of the African civil wars, each side is armed with almost identical weapons (soviet bloc). If not the AK, then some other gun (they'd just have to buy them more often).CynicalMe 21:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but what about point 2 and 3? Mieciu K 22:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why the AK was great? I think its main point in favor is ruggedness and reliability, which is covered in the article. The reasons why it is inferior to modern assault rifles basically boil down to being less accurate, which is also mentioned already. Inferiority is a very subjective matter. Granted, most new weapons are much more accurate, but they are also far less reliable. How many of them can be buried in a bog for a year and still function without a cleaning?CynicalMe 22:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let me jump in if I may...The AK was "great" because it was basically FREE. They were literally given away to revolutionaries, who had little to no chance of buying FNs, M16s, or other "professional soldier" weapons. I've often heard - to my occasional annoyance - some kinda quote from some Clint Eastwood movie about the AK being the "preferred weapon of the enemy" or some such. Point is, "comrade" had no choice - it was all he could get in bulk numbers!Also, as an aside, "buried in a bog for a year and still function without a cleaning..."  PLease be careful about David Hackworth quotes or war stories. Don't get me wrong - I liked him and miss him....but he had as much BS as he had guts; he was never above exaggeration. Engr105th 01:38, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What the article lacks 

message: From the article:
:The resulting Sturmgewehr 44 (StG44) was not the first rifle to use these features; it was preceded by earlier Italian and Russian designs, such as the Tokarev SVT-40.
Since I'm curious, and I'm sure others are too, which Italian designs? Links or at least names would be helpfull. WegianWarrior 05:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Design background 

message: Okay, according to <I>Jane's Guns Recognition Guide</I>, the Tokarev SVT-38 weighs 3.95 kg, the Garand M1 weighs 4.3 kg, the M1 Carbine weighs 2.36 kg, the Simonov SKS weighs 3.86 kg, the Ljungman AG42 weighs 4.71 kg, and I couldn't find the Walther or Mauser sniper rifles ('41 / '43).  Among selective-fire weapons, the MP 43 (<I>Sturmgewehr</I> 44) weighs 5.22 kg, the Simonov AVS-36 weighs 4.4 kg, the Rheinmetall FG 42 weighs 4.5 kg, and the Browning Automatic Rifle weighs 7.28 kg (although Jane's considers the latter a machinegun); I assume the M2 carbine is similar in weight to the M1.  The AK-47 itself is reported at 4.3 kg.  I'll do the edit. Boris B 18:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe, it was about its soviet predessors, like 5+ kg PPSh? --jno 10:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree that the SVT isn't a good example of a "proto-assault rifle".  The features it shares with the AK (gas operation, bullet diameter, being designed in the USSR) might be worth mentioning but they are not peculiar to assault rifles.  I, too, am curious about the Italian designs and the Fedorov.  IIRC, the only military autoloader which used an intermediate cartridge before the MP 43 / Sturmgewehr was the M1 Carbine, (which this article doesn't mention, I suppose because it was rather on the weak side of "intermediate") or perhaps the American commercial rifles (Winchester or Remington? don't remember) which got pressed into air-to-air fights occasionally at the beginning WWI. Boris B 00:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the Italian design being referred to is the Cei-Rigotti, and the Russian is the Federov Avtomat.  Anyone know for sure?  Boris B 07:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! I'd been trying to track that down. CynicalMe 20:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the weight issue, Bolotin's book "Soviet small arms" claimed that AK-47 weights 3.8kg empty, and commonly quoted figure 4.3kg is it's loaded weight. Can anyone confirm or deny these figures? Certainly given that most of the other AK variants are in the 3 to 3.8kg range, it would seem strange that AK-47 would weight that much. For example, Finnish rk62 has milled receiver and it only weights 3.6kg empty. --Mikoyan21 16:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the heavier figure may be referring to the milled receiver variant.CynicalMe 17:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It depends on the receiver and the stock (more variants). Some lighter variants also use weaker cartrigdes (5.56x45, 5.45x39). CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 17:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is, there are AK variants with identical milled receiver than AK-47 (Finnish RK62, for example) which are much lighter. Stock does explain part of this difference, but not friggin' 800 grams! --Mikoyan21 11:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, it seems the dispute is solved. Finnish literature says that weight of Type 54 (AK-47 type2/3) is 3.6 to 4.0 kg empty, so average would be 3.8 kg - same as in Bolotin's book. Also, a collector who owns a type 3 AK-47 weighted his gun and it was 4.0kg empty, 4.4 with magazine. --Mikoyan21 12:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not lighter 

message: The order to enter service was of 1949, not 1951. The document in question is the Decision of Soviet of Ministers of the USSR number 2611-1033ss of 18.06.1949 (AK has entered service) and the Order of the Ministry of Defense number 0086 of 29.06.1949 (AK was announced in the army)  --jno 10:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Service spec 

message: You thinks at I are a racist when a sey at Ak-47 use by black people in africa but it not rasism, it is the truth. Go in at google.se and look. Killerman2 06:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This weapon is in use by whites, blacks, reds, yellows, etc. I'd say, I know no human race which have not used an AK or its derivatives. But if you wanna highlight the role of the AK in specific conflicts, just find a better place within the article. --jno 12:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Africa 

message: I can see a possible edit war starting over this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=AK-47&curid=1348&diff=287722265&oldid=287554246
Keep it like it is for now. Old Al (talk) 21:56, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uh-oh 

message: The article says:
The Izhevsk Machine Tool Factory acquired a patent in 1999, making manufacture of the Kalashnikov rifle system by anyone other than themselves illegal. However, nearly one million AK-47 assault rifles are manufactured illegally each year.
This is a highly dubious claim because different countries have different laws. What is illegal in Russia may be perfectly legal in China or the U.S. In what country is the gun patented? Russia is not part of the WTO, so WTO rules would not apply if the gun is only patented in Russia. It also seems questionable to have something patented 50 years after invention. Is something even patentable in most countries at that point? --JHP (talk) 03:21, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The AK-47 hasn't been produced by anyone since the 1950s.. Koalorka (talk) 15:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious claims in licensing section 

message: When was the first time the AK-47 was used was it in the Korean War, French-IndoChina War or the Vietnam War? Anyone.--Coffeekid (talk) 18:59, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Usage 

message: Is the AK-47 still being manufactured in Russia itself or are all the plants now producing the AK-74 and its derivatives? I saw nothing of this in the article.Mytg8 (talk) 17:14, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The 7.62 AK variants are still manufactured in Russia and used by the Russian law enforcement but the are being replaced by the 5.45 AK however I do not think the 7.62 AK will be completely gone from the Russian law enforcement any time soon.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.2.39.64 (talk) 23:56, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  AKM phased out? 

message: Someone edited its effective range 200 to 800-1000m. This is nonsense, please dont change as incorrect  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madmajor-896 (talk • contribs) 14:27, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And we all know the ranges that you come up with are all 100% accurate and trustworthy. — DanMP5 15:20, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's see some cites for the changes. The effective range is definitely not the same as having settings on the sights. Binksternet (talk) 16:51, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Effective Range 

message: in the part about the ak being on the flag of other nations/groups/militias etc, can we add FARC, id think it is deserving, they are known widely throughout the western world i would think? any ideas? heres a link to the flag, and article: (cool looking flag i might add)
wikipedia article on FARC
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_FARC-EP.svg
thanks for your time, this was just a suggestion. i read the section and thought why not add them weather you like them or not. MACKEL ♠ 15:42, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  cultural influence section/flags 

message: Hi, can you tell me, if the gun on this photo is an AK-47? Thanks Lipedia (talk) 15:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: "The World Bank estimates that out of the 500 million total firearms available worldwide, 100 million are of the Kalashnikov family, and 75 million of which are AK-47s." should be "The World Bank estimates that out of the 500 million total firearms available worldwide, 100 million are of the Kalashnikov family, 75 million of which are AK-47s."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Faceless Enemy (talk • contribs) 21:24, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar 

message: Hmm, searched the article, its complete history, this discussion and its archives, and nothing at all on Saddam's gold-plated AK-47s, Tabuks, and Dragunovs ? Nothing in those corresponding articles either. Weird. Here's a couple of sources: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1810856420070618 and http://www.ak-47.us/Gold_AK47.php --Jerome Potts (talk) 21:15, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saddam's golden guns 

message: I think Russia still use AK-47 variants but not the original design, but a variant still counts so Russia should be on the list  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.95.125 (talk) 16:22, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Some russian Special forces use AKM, I think. Not AK. Zaqq (talk) 17:21, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seems Ironic that Russians don't use the AK 47 

message: M64 link follows to Super Mario 64... lol :)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.209.114.142 (talk) 21:01, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I always suspected Mario was a communist. :P Spartan198 (talk) 04:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Super Mario 64?! 

message: Let me start by saying that I was born in Russia, am Russian and very proud of Kalashnikov. However parts of the article were blatant POV, phrasing sentences in a way to underline USA alone fought the Cold War (when UK for example as well as others were in 100% cooperation). The article was skewed. This article should be about this wonderful gun, and not about some people's views that American movies unfairly portray suicide bombers. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 01:38, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a pretty massive article.  Can you please quote the sections that you think need work?  Faceless Enemy (talk) 09:31, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Presumably the almost entirely unsourced "Cultural influence" section, easily the weakest part of an otherwise pretty high-quality article. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:55, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite of part of article