Talk:Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church

message: I think this page is not NPOV. I can imagine quite a few Russian/Ukrainian Orthodox readers taking umbrage at the presentation. It seems to minimize Ukraine's relationship with Russia and with the Orthodox churches beyond what I think is reasonable. Ornil 22:40, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: I think this page is not NPOV.

message: Oh?  What do you think to propose would be a more NPOV of Ukraine's relationship with Russia and the Orthodox Church?
Genyo 02:30, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: I think it is

message: I think it is fair to emphasize the popes and so on in an article about UGCC, although if it were a general history of Christian church in Ukraine, I'd object. I do think it would be worthwhile from NPOV perspective to mention that basically Cyril and Methodius were converting Slavs into the Greek church, i.e. under the Patriarch of Constantinople. At the time it didn't really matter, I agree, since there was only one Church, but there had been occasional rivalry even then which later led to the schism. Ornil 15:36, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-history 

message: I have read the above comments with interest, and I do agree with Ornil that there are some NPOV issues here, but my synthesis is that most of the POV issues are a result of the subject, rather than true POV issues.  It needs to be remembered that this articles IS NOT and article on "the History of Christianity in Ukraine", which by definition would be a more neutral article.
More importantly than the debate you have engaged in here, are some obvious stylistic problems that depart from various conventions in English.  It is clear that some of the contributions to his article are from non-native English speakers and thusly, there are some phrases and paragraphs that are just downright confusing and unclear.  I feel that this lack of clarity makes the relatively subtle issues presented in this article even more difficult for the uninformed reader.  I think that even seom POV issues could be cleared up if the article was written in stylistically proper English.  
Another problem in the article is the use of so-called 'Modern' Ukrainian.  This is an article in English not in Ukranian, the Wikipedia Naming conventions for Ukrainian are as follows:
* Most personal names have a conventional English spelling, rendered phonetically.  This is usually very close to transliteration by the BGN/PCGN system, which is quite intuitive for English speakers to pronounce.  Some Ukrainian names have conventional spellings that come from other languages, like Polish, transliteration from Russian, transliteration into German, etc.
* For geographic names in Ukraine, the Ukrainian National system is used.  For historic reasons, many names are also presented in Russian, Polish, etc.
Naming in the article should conform to this convention, which I am fairly sure it does not - and in any case there are conflicting uses throughout the article in some places.
--Nicodemus75 20:07, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: General Article problems

message: (...) the hierarchs of the church have acclaimed their primate "Patriarch" and have requested Papal recognition and elevation. (...)
Are you sure this information is correct? It seemns to me that the UGCC doesn't need any os these from the Vatican. 
Please see: http://ncronline.org/mainpage/specialdocuments/taft.htm
- verblyud
* This interview with Taft isn't some sort of commentary on canons. The fact is, that Rome has to approve the hierarchy of the UGCC or else it is not licit. In many of his liberal rantings, Taft is correct on the facts, but often wrong on analysis.--Nicodemus75 22:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Approval from Rome? 

message: I'm having a couple of problems with the fallowing assertion:
"most of the parishes in Halychina and Volhynia were violently seized by the Uniates, leading to blooshed and to rupture of relations between the Patriarch of Moscow and the Pope"
: 1 - To start with I would state that the term "Uniate" can have a pejorative connotation though even this can be dabated. Sorry for having to quote Jeusit Robert Taft once again, but he conveys this as I personally see it:
http://www.utoronto.ca/stmikes/alum-dev/pdf/spring01.pdf
: 2 - What relations between the Patriarch of Moscow and the Pope were ruptured? i.m.h.o. there wasn't much of a relation to be ruptured. This statement isn't clear.
: 3 - Most importantly though, "most parishes were violently seized by the Uniates, leading to bloodshed" sounds much more emotional than factual. There were indeed some cases of violence - from "both" sides - but we all know that "most" isn't correct. "Violently seized" should be used with care and this demands a further explanation: at the very least "The catholics wanted back an equivalent for the loss incurred". It's a simple question of compromising, isn't it?
Verblyud 12:23, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As for ROC vs RC relationship, whatever they are or were, currently the UGCC is the major issue often bitterly brought up by ROC. This was mentioned every time when the ROC objected to the Pope's visit to Russia (Pope J.P. II never managed to visit Russia because of that despite he made it clear many times how much he wanted to). I have no opinion on the term "Uniate" but if this is indeed offensive, we should not use it. As for "violently seized", I don't know how many of the transfers were made with violence. There was violence for sure in some cases. However, the positions of people on the both sides were understandable and it is the hierarch (of both churches) to blame for this mess. If you would like to modify the phrasing, please go ahead. Please, also see the earlier discussions at the talk. The article needs to be thoroughly reworked I think. --Irpen 08:31, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Most parishes were violently seized? 

message: An excellent account: http://www.pravoslavie.ru/arhiv/050513111111Kuban kazak 17:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The account is of the history of the Unia and its gradual elimianation in early 19th century Belarusian (and Volynian) territories of Russia. -- Kuban kazak 15:04, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Link relevance

message: However, since the Ukrainian Orthodox were split into at least three denominations around the onset of independence in the 1990s, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church denomination thereby accidentally became the second largest religious organization in Ukraine in terms of number of communities.
I don't see what was the impact of split on the relative position of UGCC on Ukraine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if there was one Ukrainian Orthodox Church, UGCC would still be the second largest religious organization, wouldn't it? Hence my edit.agnus 01:22, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: UGCC size

message: The article claims the Church is only dominanat in three regions (I suppose you have Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk and Ternopil in mind?), actually It is also dominant in Transcarpathia, although there it has diffrent roots steming from the union of Uzzhorod. Today it has a slightly diffrent status inside the Ukrainian church so maybe that's why it wasn't included here. Unfortunetly I'm not an expert on ecclesiastic history and my English is quite week so I'm unable to contribute to the article.
--212.126.207.130 21:08, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes Lvov, Ivano-Frankovsk and Ternopol. And only excluding the northern part of the latter, then that territory is predominantely uniate. In transcarpathia, the most dominants church above all is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. The unia there has different roots, and unlike in Galicia, it was mostly disestablished in the 1930s, ie before the war. I would like to continue the conversation, but I actively encourage you to register on wiki. --Kuban kazak 22:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Transcarpathia

message: Can the person who suggested this  please explain the logic, this article is about a specific religious group in Ukraine, whereas the article that you propose to merge it with is a full historical account of events that are linked with Christianity in Ukraine. You cannot be serious on merging them? In the meantime I am taking the template down...--Kuban Cossack  23:34, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Merging is indeed out of question. What needs done, though, is moving (not copying) whatever useful is in this article in sections Early pre-history, Old Ruthenian period  and Middle Ruthenian period to the history article. THe UGCC started not from the Baptism of Kiev but from the Union of Brest. While some background info on the events that lead to the UoB may be helpful here, the fork of the entire christianity history in UA does not belong to every Ukrainian Chruch article. --Irpen 23:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can I start doing that, or what?  Kevlar67 02:40, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoever does this long since backlogged task would be a real hero. The bre-Brest historic info needs to be carefully integrated with the already existing material in the History of Christianity in Ukraine article and removed from here or, perhaps, relpaced with the brief summary and a somewhat more detailed account of what directly preceeded the Union of Brest. --Irpen 02:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I just figured that other editors might be afraid of being accused of bias.  Since I'm neither Catholic nor Orthodox and I don't live in Ukraine, I'm not or less neutral on the topic. Kevlar67 04:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge Request

message: :The persecution led to the re-establishment of parishes eastward throughout Ukraine, and the further spread of the Church into Russia (especially Siberia and Kazakhstan).
Who wrote this? Unrefrenced and also geographically wrong as Kazakhstan is actually outside Russia... Please rephrase this--Kuban Cossack 10:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Commented out

message: I am writing this to respond to those who have been repeatedly posting with regard to the "schismatic nature" of the Society of Saint Pius X. Keep in mind that this allegation remains a subject of very bitter debate among Catholics. Therefore, do not post only one side of the debate without also posting the points of view. Do not forget that I am not the only SSPX supporter who frequently references and contributes to this site. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kingstowngalway (talk • contribs) 04:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not a fierce enemy of the SSPX, but I'm a quite active Catholic and as far as all Austrian Priests and Bishops I know, the SSPX is thought of as a mild form of haeresis. There are no bitter debates, that's a consens + the SSPX is a minority too small to really care about it... Qubux 10:04, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

text: With respect, I put it this way - Patriarch Lubomir is the final arbiter of who is and who is not in communion with the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church. I really don't care either way about the SSPX in relation to the Roman Church, but as far as the Greek-Catholic Churches are concerned, the SSPX is in schism in relation to them, as the SSPX has attempted to ordain for our Churches despite the opposition and clear condemnation from our hierarchs. Nevertheless, a neutral tone for an encyclopaedia article is something I am not opposed to. InfernoXV 05:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Father Basil Kovpak and the Priestly Society of Saint Josaphat 

message: The map Ukraine_eparchies.png shows the eparchy of Ternopil-Zboriv comprising the northern half of the Ternopil oblast and the whole Khmelnitsky oblast. I was under the impression that the Khmelnitsky oblast was included in the Kyiv archeparchy, and that the Ternopil-Zboriv eparchy only comprised the northern half of the Ternopil oblast. Maybe I was wrong, but please could you tell me what is the source for this feature of the map? 68.56.96.130 (talk) 18:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that Your information is outdated, some quick googling leads to information about the decision of the Synod from 2003 to join Khmelnytska Oblast to the Ternopil-Zboriv Eparchy (). --212.76.33.87 (talk) 23:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Territorial subdivision 

message: This article would be greatly improved by adding information on the liturgy of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. It contains virtually no information on the subject of the liturgy, leaving the reader to wonder about the degree of similarity to the Latin Rite, about any differences and similarity to orthodox liturgies, and about any differences or similarities to the liturgies of the other byzantine sui juris churches. Dgf32 (talk) 21:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liturgy 

message: This entire section is without any sources and lacks a NPOV:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Greek_Catholic_Church#Union_of_Brest
It contains anti-Catholic and anti-Polonist statements.
````  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.44.15.214 (talk) 12:21, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Union of Brest

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replies: text: Confirmed as correct capture. Thanks. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:51, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  Catholic Church naming conventions RfC 

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