Talk:Masonic Temple (disambiguation)

message: This page should be an Nrhp disambiguation page, please confirm that it is. It should contain the following links:
*Masonic Temple (Fairbanks, Alaska)
*Masonic Temple (Kingman, Arizona)
*Masonic Temple (Yuma, Arizona)
*Masonic Temple (El Dorado, Arkansas)
*Masonic Temple (Pine Bluff, Arkansas)
*Masonic Temple (Berkeley, California)
*Masonic Temple (Fullerton, California)
*Masonic Temple (Riverside, California)
*Masonic Temple (New Britain, Connecticut)
*Masonic Temple (Washington, District Of Columbia)
*Masonic Temple (Gainesville, Florida)
*Masonic Temple (Jacksonville, Florida)
*Masonic Temple (Aurora, Illinois)
*Masonic Temple (Evansville, Indiana)
*Masonic Temple (Fort Wayne, Indiana)
*Masonic Temple (Franklin, Indiana)
*Masonic Temple (Muncie, Indiana)
*Masonic Temple (Salina, Kansas)
*Masonic Temple (Paducah, Kentucky)
*Masonic Temple (Shreveport, Louisiana)
*Masonic Temple (Belfast, Maine)
*Masonic Temple (Portland, Maine)
*Masonic Temple (Quincy, Massachusetts)
*Masonic Temple (Springfield, Massachusetts)
*Masonic Temple (Worcester, Massachusetts)
*Masonic Temple (Port Hope, Michigan)
*Masonic Temple (Minneapolis, Minnesota)
*Masonic Temple (Meridian, Mississippi)
*Masonic Temple (Warrensburg, Missouri)
*Masonic Temple (Billings, Montana)
*Masonic Temple (Great Falls, Montana)
*Masonic Temple (Lewistown, Montana)
*Masonic Temple (Lincoln, Nebraska)
*Masonic Temple (Grand Forks, North Dakota)
*Masonic Temple (Columbus, Ohio)
*Masonic Temple (Kent, Ohio)
*Masonic Temple (Mechanicsburg, Ohio)
*Masonic Temple (Youngstown, Ohio)
*Masonic Temple (Atoka, Oklahoma)
*Masonic Temple (Pendleton, Oregon)
*Masonic Temple (Chambersburg, Pennsylvania)
*Masonic Temple (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania)
*Masonic Temple (Aberdeen, South Dakota)
*Masonic Temple (Richmond , Virginia)
*Masonic Temple (Port Angeles, Washington)
*Masonic Temple (Yakima, Washington)
*Masonic Temple (Fairmont, West Virginia)
*Masonic Temple (Parkersburg, West Virginia)
*Masonic Temple (Appleton, Wisconsin)
*Masonic Temple (Casper, Wyoming)
*Masonic Temple (Cheyenne, Wyoming)
:The above note, which i just collapsed, is from a long time ago when an NRHP bot was running, that no longer exists.  It probably does not apply in any way now, except as a record of the places named exactly "Masonic Temple" that were listed on the NRHP back then. --doncram (talk) 15:06, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nrhp Review 

message: I think part of the problem is that this is not formatted the way most dab pages are... by breaking the buildings up into states it comes across as a "List of". I have tried reformatting to match other dab pages. Blueboar (talk) 14:38, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I see you're changing the appearance considerably, probably that is fine.  I will take a break from editing here, to avoid edit conflicts, will return later. --doncram (talk) 14:47, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: OK... but I am done with the appearance/format change.  Feel free to edit again. Blueboar (talk) 14:49, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, okay.  This is second time a bunch of stuff that i was putting in got lost, i think, though.  So pls. do hold off and let me finish the NRHP cleanup, okay?  I'll remove the "Under Construction" and "NRHP dab needing cleanup" tags when i'm done, again within a day or two. --doncram (talk) 16:15, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

text: At this point, I am not planning on making any more edits... so have fun. (see if you can encourage others at the NRHP project to write some articles on these buildings and thus remove the red links!) Blueboar (talk) 18:13, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I finished the nrhp dab cleanup edits.  I accepted removal of state-specific sections, which i agree are not necessary, but added/revised sections for the countries involved.  I just returned and undid this edit which removed the country sections.  For clarity to readers, a page organized by country and in the United States by state then city, the organization needs to be conveyed by country section headers and some explanation at the top of the U.S. section.  This is standard for places-oriented dab pages.  While there could possibly be some helpful refinement in formatting, the formatting of this and the basic ordering has been much reviewed by disambiguation-focussed editors.  Just deleting the section headers calls into question the ordering.  Should it then be rearranged to be alphabetical by name, or by city, and let states and countries get jumbled up?  The formatting and ordering as now, clearly by country then state then city, is good, IMHO. --doncram (talk) 13:21, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: format

message: :Masonic Temple → Masonic Temple (disambiguation) — Request move of this disambiguation page to "Masonic Temple (disambiguation)", per discussion with editor User:Blueboar above and elsewhere, to allow "Masonic temple" to be the primary usage article and to allow "Masonic Temple" to redirect to that. --doncram (talk) 14:21, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually... I would suggest "Masonic Temple" (with a capital "T") redirect to the disambig page... the chances are, anyone searching with the capital letter is looking for an article about a specific building named "Masonic Temple".  In the event that someone is looking for the general article that explains what a Masonic temple is, they can get there through the disambig page. For the same reason... I don't really care whether the disambig page has a capital "T" or a lower case "t"... whichever is used (follow MOS on that), the other should be a redirect to the one chosen.  Blueboar (talk) 20:17, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, i am fine with that change to how redirects are to be set up.  The move, what we need an administrator's help with, stays as proposed.  Thanks! --doncram (talk) 21:17, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

text: This looks like List of Masonic temples, which should have a hatnote from Masonic temple. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:29, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hatnote added.  Thanks! --doncram (talk) 13:41, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: requested move 1

message: ::::I go back and forth on the red-links.  I understand the argument that these are potential articles on notable buildings (as demonstrated by being on the NRHP)... but the purpose of a dab page is primarily to help readers and editors quickly and easily find existing articles, and only secondarily to find those still needing to be written.  When more than half of a dab page is red-linked, that sort of defeats the purpose.  
:::::Assuming we do keep the red-links, I would support the idea of moving them to a separate section (or at least to the end of the current section - so that we list the articles that currently exist first, and then the articles that don't exist).  Yes, this will require periodic updating and maintenance (as articles are written they would need to be moved up into the blue-link section and placed in the right order) but that is true for all large dab pages. Blueboar (talk) 12:48, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely agree on both counts. (Note: I reverted two recent edits: The first because there should be only one bluelink per entry; anyone interested in Masonic Lodge can link to that article thru Masonic temple. The second because these two Pennsylvania buildings, although not normally called Masonic Temple are apparently listed that way on the NRHP (see the infoboxes on each article) and I'm absolutely certain doncram would object to their removal for that reason.) Station1 (talk) 18:08, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no way in hell that the red-link entries, where properly compliant supporting bluelinks, are going to be deleted or reordered to appear at the end.  This has been well-discussed several times over at WikiProject Disambiguation and at MOSDAB and elsewhere.  Blueboar is presumably not aware of and is not yet sick of debating that.  But there is hard-won consensus on this point, notwithstanding Station1's not liking the consensus.  JHunterJ alluded to that consensus elsewhere on this Talk page or on another one of the too many open discussions about the pretty silly and small issues of disambiguation of places named Masonic Temple.  This is way too much debate on too many miniscule points for my taste, and reopening of well-settled issues.  Could everyone please stop and go back to developing mainspace, non-disambiguation, material in Wikipedia? --doncram (talk) 14:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: about red-links and ordering

message: Please stop edit warring over this.  I have asked for some experienced editors from the Disambiguation Project to swing by and help us resolve the format and style issues (such as whether we should break the buildings up by nationality or not, and whether we should include all these red-links, and if so how). Blueboar (talk) 19:35, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: (ec) with my comment in "Reverting?" section just above.  Great.  If you have changed the article to some other version again, I will revert it once again to a sensible dab page, and I will indeed welcome other disambiguation 
editors comments. --doncram (talk) 19:41, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

text: To provide focus for discussion, I think that this version is good.  Blueboar and/or others, could you please state what you want to change about that.  One thing that has been changed repeatedly is that another editor or two has deleted the country headers.  That seems frankly stupid and unhelpful to me, as then each item would have to include mention of the country, and it would still be harder for readers and editors to navigate.  Please explain your intentions, if it is to make the page unhelpful for readers or what.  Sorry not to be more polite, but this is ridiculous and has been running too long already. --doncram (talk) 19:46, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Format and Style (yet again) 

message: In this edit i just restored some mentions of "listed on the NHRP in X County, State" that had just been deleted.  The "optimal" formatting of such items is under active discussion between a couple editors including Station1 and me at another Talk page where there is a bigger discussion referenced from WikiProject Disambiguation, too right now.  The basic issue here is that it is useful to dissuade addition of just any place named Masonic Temple, of which i am sure there are many non-notable ones.  Showing that the notable ones accepted for mention in a Wikipedia dab page are mostly NRHP-listed ones is useful.  I'll add mention of this page to the other main discussion about this point of formatting.  Please, there's enough going on with this stupid dab page that we don't need to fight this formatting issue here too, please! --doncram (talk) 00:28, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have not been involved in the long discussion cited except for one sentence directly responding to a question. Consensus on how to optimally format a dab page is documented at MOS:DAB. Station1 (talk) 05:41, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  format of NRHP items 

message: PeRshGo has now created List of Masonic Temples... so we have yet another iteration of the same god damned list to add to our discussions. NOT helpful. I here by formally propose that we put a moratorium on creating any further versions of this list.  Blueboar (talk) 14:44, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Speedied as a fork that didn't add anything to the original article. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:36, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I won't accept a moratorium on compromise. You don't want a list article. Good for you. I have already said that I'm your side in that the Masonic building concept is overly broad, but I'm not just going to stonewall everyone in hopes that the problem is just going to go away. PeRshGo (talk) 21:07, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  And the problem grows