Talk:Bösendorfer/Archive 1

message: Although it's true that this is a legendary piano the article reads like promotional copy. The quotes are not attributed. --Kmorrow 10:50, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

message: MichaelIsGreat (talk • contribs) keeps adding this, which I propose is discussed here and beaten into shape, rather than destabilising the article.
During the past recent decades, a reproducing piano (also sometimes called a computer piano or a player piano) has been defined as being first an acoustic piano that is not diminished in any way in its ability to play piano pieces. The touch at the keyboard and the sound produced by a reproducing piano is not changed in any way compared to a normal acoustic piano. However, a reproducing piano has an unobtrusive computer interface that allows the pianist to record and playback the piano pieces that are performed on it. Usually, it also has a silent mechanism that stops the hammers from striking the strings and that allows the pianist to play silently at the keyboard, at any time during the day or the night without disturbing others, and with the option of using headphones to hear digital sounds while playing silently at the keyboard (many digital sounds are available: piano, harpsichord, organ, strings, etc.). It also has a MIDI interface that allows the pianist to play back many pieces that are available on this particular MIDI format. However, the MIDI format allows the recording and playback of piano pieces only at a level of accuracy of 127 scales (or 127 steps if you prefer). This MIDI format has simply too few scales to convey the full gamut of expressiveness that is indispensable to record and playback piano pieces. Consequently, a reproducing piano usually also has a more accurate proprietary format to record and playback piano pieces at a much higher level of accuracy than the MIDI format. In summary, a reproducing piano is a very flexible musical instrument that combines the old (an acoustic piano) with the new (a MIDI format but especially the recording and playing back of the piano) at the same time. It allows the pianist to play the numerous MIDI piano pieces available but, more importantly, to record and playback piano pieces at a higher level of accuracy than it is possible to do with the MIDI format.
The quality of the Bösendorfer pianos and especially the sound that they produce are the result of a long and old tradition of piano making.
Bösendorfer also kept in touch with modernity. They took an active participation at making reproducing pianos first with their SE 290 computer piano that was made in collaboration with Wayne Stahnke. It was considered by the entire community of piano makers to be the most accurate reproducing piano of its time.
At the beginning of 2006, Bösendorfer introduced its next generation of reproducing pianos: the CEUS Computer Grand Piano.
Previously to the Bösendorfer CEUS Computer Grand Piano, several scientific studies were made that had for main goal to assess if the reproducing pianos that were available were as faithful to the expressiveness of the best performers at the piano as they should be. These studies concluded that the best reproducing pianos (including the SE 290 computer piano) were not as faithful at recording and playing back the performance of the best pianists as they should have been (see in particular "Measurement and reproduction accuracy of computer-controlled grand pianos" by Werner Goebl, et al., August 6-9, 2003).
Taking this conclusion as an incentive to raise the accuracy of its reproducing piano (the SE 290 computer piano), Bösendorfer set themselves to create an even more accurate reproducing piano that would accomplish THE VERY CHALLENGING GOAL OF BEING ABLE TO RECORD AND PLAYBACK THE FULL GAMUT OF EXPRESSIVENESS THAT IS ACHIEVABLE BY THE BEST PERFORMERS AT THE PIANO.
In 2006, after more than a decade of hard work toward the accomplishment of this particular goal, they finally managed to present the result of their efforts and dedication by introducing the new CEUS Computer Grand Piano.
Here are just a few of the interesting features of this new Bösendorfer CEUS computer piano that are mentioned on the Bösendorfer web site:
*The movements of the keys are perfectly accurately recorded and played back in all the ranges, from pianissimo to fortissimo.
*It is capable of recording and playing back THE FULL GAMUT OF EXPRESSIVENESS THAT THE BEST PIANISTS ARE CAPABLE OF PLAYING AT THE KEYBOARD.
*THERE IS AN AUTOMATIC REGULATION THAT COMPENSATES FULLY FOR ANY VARIATION DUE TO TEMPERATURE AND HUMIDITY.
*THERE IS AN AUTOMATIC REGULATION THAT ALLOWS THIS NEW CEUS COMPUTER PIANO TO KEEP ITS TUNING AND INTONATION UNCHANGED. THEREFORE, THE CEUS COMPUTER PIANO TUNES ITSELF AUTOMATICALLY!
*THE CURRENT OWNERS OF BÖSENDORFER GRAND PIANOS (MODELS 170 TO 290) WILL BE ABLE TO HAVE THIS NEW CEUS REPRODUCING SYSTEM CUSTOM-FITTED INTO THEIR PIANOS AND IT WILL NOT MODIFY, IN ANY WAY, THE QUALITY OF THE SOUND OF THEIR PIANOS. 
(For the list and the full details of the features of this new Bösendorfer CEUS Computer Grand Piano, go to the Bösendorfer web site at http://www.boesendorfer.com/_english_version/index.html Click at the top left the link Products, then on the left click the link Computer Grand Piano and you can get the full details of this new CEUS computer piano).
In the coming decades, other piano companies will surely strive to add as a basic feature of their pianos the very interesting capability of this new Bösendorfer CEUS computer grand piano of being able to record and playback the full gamut of expressiveness that the best pianists are capable of playing at the keyboard. However, to achieve this goal, Bösendorfer worked for more than a decade before being able to present the fruit of their efforts with the Bösendorfer CEUS computer grand piano. Consequently, it is very likely to take a very significant amount of time before we can see this interesting capability being added as a basic feature to most of the reproducing pianos produced.
Comments please.  In my view a mention of the model in question would be sufficient, and this appears to me to read somewhat like an advert rather than an encyclopedia entry.  --RobertG ♬ talk 18:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I'm not clear on how this is revolutionary, it seems like a bigger/faster/louder computer piano. Perhaps something like "==Computer grand piano== In 2006 Bösendorfer came out with a new "Computer controlled grand piano" called CEUS. It records both key positions and pedal positions in order to more accurately reflect what is played on it." Mak (talk) 18:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The New (2006) Bösendorfer Reproducing Grand Piano: the CEUS Computer Grand Piano

message: Please would you review some Wikipedia policies, particularly assume good faith, no personal attacks, civility and the guideline on etiquette, all of which this clearly ignore.  You have insulted some experienced and valued members of the community since you started editing, and though we would all like nothing better than to see you become a valued member of the community yourself please reflect on whether you are going the right way about it.  --RobertG ♬ talk 17:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia policies

message: (edit conflict)
Your recent contributions have not followed a number of Wikipedia's guidelines for editing, which is why they have been removed by a number of other editors, not from any wish to "censor" you. When you contribute to Wikipedia you are agreeing that other people may modify or delete what you contribute, as well as agreeing that what you contribute is not copyrighted and is verifiable. This information is right under the edit screen. You need to make your edits conform to a neutral point of view. I understand that you believe this technology to be wonderful, but you need to put it into realistic and neutral terms, and use independent sources to back up what you say. Are there any music or piano journals which have written articles about this technology (not ads)? If so, cite them. Please don't simply re-add your contributions, but read some important policies like WP:NPOV and try to understand them before you put in the information, hopefully in a different form. Feel free to ask questions on my talk page, Mak (talk) 17:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent contributions

message: This new CEUS computer grand piano is too recent to have been even presented to any journal of any kind! 
I read the policies, thank you very much. Does it mean that I should avoid speaking of this exceptional CEUS computer grand piano because it is too new to be fully verifiable?!! There are millions of pages on Wikipedia that are not verified for these editing rules!!!! Millions! And yet I have to put up with you, the brats who are envious of Bosendorfer's new AMAZING, EXCEPTIONAL, UNIQUE CEUS COMPUTER GRAND PIANO. And why that? Because you have your own agenda of making sure that I will not state a word about this new milestone, the CEUS computer grand piano!
I have no financial interests of any kind with Bosendorfer. I just love their latest accomplishment, the CEUS. It will be my first and last article to this crazy Wikipedia!!! So, make the most of it before I start using words that you will not like!
What I wrote so far is surely the most cautious essay on this new  CEUS computer grand piano that I could have ever written. DO NOT ASK ME TO PRODUCE THE IMPOSSIBLE THAT DOES NOT EXIST YET I.E. JOURNALS OR ELSE WHEN THIS NEW CEUS HAS PROBABLY BEEN ONLY SHOWN TO THE WORLD THROUGH THE BOSENDORFER SITE JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO I GUESS (VERY RECENTLY AT LEAST).
Be specific, state the sentences that you feel need to be changed for the latest version that I produced (your remarks are likely to be wrong because I have not your agenda: making sure that this new CEUS piano will not be known).
Or I would assume that this latest version satisfies you. Again, not even half of the articles on Wikipedia follows the rules fully!!! Do you know that? What I wrote follows the rules to the best I could do considering the circumstances (a piano so new that only the Bosendorfer site is aware of it!!) I cannot invent articles for a product that is simply too recent!!!!
So, what are the sentences that make you jealous, envious, you the never-satisfied censors?!! Be specific and do not ask me to read the rules because I did.
MichaelIsGreat
:Yes, there are unverified articles on Wikipedia. I try to fix that. It is no excuse for not having sources for what you claim. Wikipedia has articles on things which are already notable and verified, that's why it's an encyclopedia, it's not for advertising brand new things. Now, the release of the product is verifiable and useful for the article on Bösendorfer, but all the things you say about it are not verifiable independent of the manufacturer, and is written like advertising copy. Try to just state the facts, and support them. Let's take "This MIDI format has simply too few scales to convey the full gamut of expressiveness that is indispensable to record and playback piano pieces." for instance. Do you have any sources for that? Just the Bösendorfer website? Your own experience? Many people would disagree, so you have to support it with trustworthy sources. What you wrote is rife with this sort of thing, and it is not actually our job to try to argue every single sentence with you. A large number of editors have found this unacceptable, so why don't you try to write it more neutrally? Mak (talk) 18:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: For RobertG and Makemi's comments

message: The New (2006) Bösendorfer Reproducing Grand Piano: the CEUS Computer Grand Piano
During the past recent decades, a reproducing piano (also sometimes called a computer piano or a player piano) has been defined as being first an acoustic piano that is not diminished in any way in its ability to play piano pieces. The touch at the keyboard and the sound produced by a reproducing piano is not changed in any way compared to a normal acoustic piano. However, a reproducing piano has an unobtrusive computer interface that allows the pianist to record and playback the piano pieces that are performed on it. Usually, it also has a silent mechanism that stops the hammers from striking the strings and that allows the pianist to play silently at the keyboard, at any time during the day or the night without disturbing others, and with the option of using headphones to hear digital sounds while playing silently at the keyboard (many digital sounds are available: piano, harpsichord, organ, strings, etc.). It also has a MIDI interface that allows the pianist to play back many pieces that are available on this particular MIDI format. The capability of a reproducing piano to convey the full expressiveness of the pianist at the keyboard is directly related to its ability to record and playback accurately the velocity of the hammers that are moved when the pianist presses the keys at the keyboard. However, the MIDI format allows the recording and playback of the velocity of the hammers of the piano only at a level of accuracy of 127 scales (or 127 steps if you prefer). The problem is that most of the pianistic techniques move the hammers at an incredibly high speed, making these 127 scales highly insufficient to be able to record and playback accurately the very high velocity of the hammers. Consequently, a reproducing piano usually also has a more accurate proprietary format to record and playback piano pieces at a much higher level of accuracy than the MIDI format. In summary, a reproducing piano is a very flexible musical instrument that combines the old (an acoustic piano) with the new (a MIDI format but especially the recording and playing back of the piano) at the same time. It allows the pianist to play the numerous MIDI piano pieces available but, more importantly, to record and playback piano pieces at a higher level of accuracy than it is possible to do with the MIDI format.
The high quality of the Bösendorfer pianos and especially the sound that they produce are the result of a long and old tradition of piano making.
Bösendorfer also kept in touch with modernity. They took an active participation at making reproducing pianos first with their SE 290 computer piano that was made in collaboration with Wayne Stahnke. It was considered by the entire community of piano makers to be the most accurate reproducing piano of its time.
At the beginning of 2006, Bösendorfer introduced its next generation of reproducing pianos: the CEUS Computer Grand Piano.
Previously to the Bösendorfer CEUS Computer Grand Piano, several scientific studies were made that had for main goal to assess if the reproducing pianos that were available were as faithful to the expressiveness of the best performers at the piano as they should be. These studies concluded that the best reproducing pianos (including the SE 290 computer piano) were not as faithful at recording and playing back the performance of the best pianists as they should have been (see in particular "Measurement and reproduction accuracy of computer-controlled grand pianos" by Werner Goebl, et al., August 6-9, 2003).
Taking this conclusion as an incentive to raise the accuracy of its reproducing piano (the SE 290 computer piano), Bösendorfer set themselves to create an even more accurate reproducing piano that would accomplish THE VERY CHALLENGING GOAL OF BEING ABLE TO RECORD AND PLAYBACK THE FULL GAMUT OF EXPRESSIVENESS THAT IS ACHIEVABLE BY THE BEST PERFORMERS AT THE PIANO.
In 2006, after more than a decade of hard work toward the accomplishment of this particular goal, they finally managed to present the result of their efforts and dedication by introducing the new CEUS Computer Grand Piano.
Bösendorfer has listed the features of their new CEUS Computer Grand Piano on their web site. For any person knowledgeable of reproducing pianos, the details of these features that are described by Bösendorfer on their web site prove, leave no doubt that the features that they listed on their web site are fully accurate.
Other extra reasons point out in support of the veracity of the features that Bösendorfer listed on their web site: Bösendorfer has a reputation of excellence at manufacturing high quality pianos; German-speaking countries such as Austria have a tradition of excellence at anything related to engineering; Austria is in Europe and advertisements in Europe are regulated by strict government regulations (contrary to the USA!) that force companies to be honest in the claims they make about their products. 
For all these reasons, it would be unfair to even doubt the veracity of the features that Bösendorfer mentions on their web site concerning this new CEUS Computer Grand Piano.
Here below are just a few of the interesting features of this new Bösendorfer CEUS computer piano that are mentioned on the Bösendorfer web site.
*The movements of the keys are perfectly accurately recorded and played back in all the ranges, from pianissimo to fortissimo.
*It is capable of recording and playing back THE FULL GAMUT OF EXPRESSIVENESS THAT THE BEST PIANISTS ARE CAPABLE OF PLAYING AT THE KEYBOARD.
*THERE IS AN AUTOMATIC REGULATION THAT COMPENSATES FULLY FOR ANY VARIATION DUE TO TEMPERATURE AND HUMIDITY.
*THERE IS AN AUTOMATIC REGULATION THAT ALLOWS THIS NEW CEUS COMPUTER PIANO TO KEEP ITS TUNING AND INTONATION UNCHANGED. THEREFORE, THE CEUS COMPUTER PIANO TUNES ITSELF AUTOMATICALLY!
*THE CURRENT OWNERS OF BÖSENDORFER GRAND PIANOS (MODELS 170 TO 290) WILL BE ABLE TO HAVE THIS NEW CEUS REPRODUCING SYSTEM CUSTOM-FITTED INTO THEIR PIANOS AND IT WILL NOT MODIFY, IN ANY WAY, THE QUALITY OF THE SOUND OF THEIR PIANOS. 
(For the full list and details of the features of this new Bösendorfer CEUS Computer Grand Piano, go to the Bösendorfer web site at http://www.boesendorfer.com/_english_version/index.html Click at the top left the link Products, then on the left click the link Computer Grand Piano and you can get the full details of this new CEUS computer piano).
In the coming decades, other piano companies will surely strive to add as a basic feature of their reproducing pianos the very interesting capability of this new Bösendorfer CEUS computer grand piano of being able to record and playback the full gamut of expressiveness that the best pianists are capable of playing at the keyboard. However, to achieve this goal, Bösendorfer worked for more than a decade before being able to present the fruit of their efforts with the Bösendorfer CEUS computer grand piano. Consequently, it is very likely to take a very significant amount of time before we can see this interesting capability being added as a basic feature to most of the reproducing pianos produced.
------------------
Enjoy! Any more feedback before I post YOUR beloved article?!!
MichaelIsGreat
:Can't you just let it go? Why is this so important to you? Mütze 11:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: So, here is the new, latest version of my article; it should please even the worst complainers and it surely will prove that I am not biased in any way in favour of Bosendorfer!!