Talk:Consonant gradation

message: This article is extremely messy and would need to be completely rewritten. At least the following are serious lacks:
- The (historical or synchronic) conditioning of consonant gradation, i.e. open vs. closed syllables is not explained.
- The difference between the two principal types of gradation (radical vs. suffixal) is not explained.
- The article mixes the synchronic descriptions of gradation together with explanations of their historical development in a way that is most confusing.
- There are also many minor errors, e.g. the postulation of an unvoiced dental spirant as the historical weak grade of t, and the claim that -e- in Suomen "Finland (GenSg)" is an epenthetic vowel.
:Now attempting to fix some of these issues… still a lot of work to do, tho. In particular, the absense of treatment of Estonian is quite a serious flaw IMO; gradation in Samic could also use elaboration. --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 22:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Serious lacks

message: I'm going to start rewriting this article as I agree that it is very messy, and it sort of misses the breadth and scope of the topic in general.  For one, it is too heavy on Finnish, but before that can be proven the Finnish part of it must be edited before it can be merged with the topic in Finnish Phonology.  As for what consonant gradation is concerned with, this is indeed a phenomenon across Finnic languages.  As someone who is concerned mostly with Finnic languages, I'm going to see what I can pull in from my resources to describe the phenomenon.  I realize I should just get to writing this, but I thought I'd mention that something will be going on very soon.
Generally though, if we're going to talk about Finnish in this article, I think historical aspects of the actual realization of phonemes should be avoided at all costs.  Historical aspects however are important to the description of Finnish C.G., however not important from a pedagogical standpoint (students for instance can just be told that X happens in Y and W and Z cases, and that's all they care).  From a descriptive standpoint this is important, and I have a feeling this article should seek to describe the phenomenon.  Anyway, that's important to mention because I want to see if anyone has arguments about ditching the mention of chroneme, in addition to focusing on standard Finnish-- that's not to say dialects have to be left out (they've got some interesting features), but I think for the sake of consistancy and being concise it's best to avoid that to describe the general phenomenon.  --Ryan 23:13, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite in process 

message: Attempting to clean up this article by isolating the wealth of information in this article that deals purely with Finnish.  Does anyone think some of it could be moved to the finnish language article? --Ryan 13:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not exactly. I think that all of the information regarding Finnish should be moved to Finnish consonant gradation with a briefer version left here and a "see main article" link at the head of the Finnish section. – Dyolf87 (talk) 06:51, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finnish Consonant Gradation 

message: I have repeatedly replaced attempts to remove the k - v alteration as an example. The problem with k - g and t - d is that these are not phomemic distinctions in Finnish, in the context of this article, whereas k - v is always phonemic. That is to say, there are no (etymologically original) minimal pairs like die - tie in Finnish, but there are distinctions like kuole "die" - vuole "carve". Only later development, namely influence from Swedish, has resulted in pairs like kadon "of the loss" - katon "of the roof". Yet this is not the original distinction [t] - [ð]. There's one more problem with using the examples which contrast voicing: it can give the impression that only voicing is changed, particularly to people who: 1) don't know that Finnic languages don't really contrast voicing and 2) are unfamiliar with the terms "qualitative" and "quantitative". --Vuo 20:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for clearing it up.  I reverted the change once because I guess I was confused at what the point of changing it was at first; my idea was just to show what qualitative means vs. quantitative in a general context not necessarily with the framework of gradation pairs available.  If there's anything else that stands out as something that someone from the field might not understand, please write something in; I'm kind of wearing my rose-tinted glasses of Finnic studies here.----Ryan 08:34, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why k - v 

message: I do not know Kroonen's exact arguments for extending this term to Proto-Germanic, but it seems to me this section would be better relocated elsewhere, e.g. in Proto-Germanic language or possibly Kluge's Law.
The term "consonant gradation" is not defined as some general class of consonant mutation. In its original sense, it refers to the common Finnic-Samic(-Nganasan) mutation system in particular (note that even unrelated Uralic consonant alternations, such as s/t alternation in Finnic, or various alternations found in e.g. Mari, are not included), which has some highly idiosyncratic conditioning and is generally thought to represent common inheritance to some extent. Germanic ticks off none of these boxes — this is an unrelated alternation in an unrelated family affecting unrelated words under unrelated conditions. Including it here just because it has been referred to by the same name is prone to sowing confusion about what consonant gradation is in the first place.
(A further precaution could be to rename this article something like "Uralic consonant gradation", or to split this further to a small overview + more detailed separate aricles, e.g. Finnic / Samic / Samoyedic, as we currently treat the Celtic initial mutations.)
--Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 17:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting Germanic 

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