Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sheffield/Archive2

message: There's an experiment at User:AlexNewArtBot to automatically find new articles which are of interest to a specific WikiProject.  I've created a ruleset for Sheffield at User:AlexNewArtBot/Sheffield, and new articles should appear listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Sheffield/New articles.  Please feel free to add new keywords to the ruleset (instructions at User:AlexNewArtBot, or ask me, and give feedback on its accuracy. Warofdreams talk 03:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New articles

message: I'm just acting as the messenger here, so in the proverbial sense dont shoot me, and I wont make further contribution to this debate.  My point is so the whole WikiProject is aware and can arrive at a proper consensus rather than the decision being made for you.  User:Jhamez84 has offered to produce a new map for the Sheffield/South Yorkshire area similar to those used by Tyne&Wear], West Midlands, Greater Manchester, and London (in addition to others which are indevelopment).  User talk:Lewisskinner has accepted this offer.  However, Captain scarlet has reprimanded Lewis for this.  No one else has brought this forward to the Project even though they wish it to be discussed further and I see little point in Jhamez wasting his time producing a map if it is going to thrown back in his face. So the question is: Do the people of the WikiProject want a clearer map? Pit-yacker 18:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For god's sake you gotta stop accusing me. Would I not know you guys better I'd think you and Jhamez are the same person. I asked Lewis to consult with the project first, while Jhamez is off on his merry way creating god knows what. As far as I am concerned a map is already available Sheffield as well as a template , I trust 's work fits fine. Maybe I can repeat my dislike of template UK place again, that much hasn't changed. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 19:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This user (Captain Scarlet) has just threatened me on Lewis's page with an argument simply for offering to help. This, combined with the above means quite frankly, this map can wait. Sorry to the wider WikiProject, but I'm not being victimised like this. Jhamez84 21:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No i didn't silly. I asked to not confer in private so that the whole project were able to participate. I asked you not to repeat an implementation before accord. You're victimising yourself when I have nothing against you, but something against your product, however the length of time you've put in it, I do not find it satisfactory. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 21:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's for the wider community to decide not me, not you. I was asked to produce a map by a member of this project. I was asking him to clarify what division of land he meant and you imeadiately threatened me with an arguement and accused me of forcing a product upon people that doesn't even exist without Lewis to even reply. You're a fantasist and a bully; can't wait for the Sheffield template to go. Jhamez84 21:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Funny, I thought that you, MRSC, Pityacker were bullying me into accepting your template by TfDing, posting messages on project pages, my talk page, other members' talk pages, RfC... On the other hand, calling me a fantasist and a buly is a personal attack. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 21:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm with JeremyA here.  Our current map is ok, and certainly more useful than a dot on a map of England or the whole UK, but the Greater Manchester and Greater London maps are much prettier and more informative.  So I suspect that a similar map of South Yorkshire would be ideal. Warofdreams talk 02:18, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: In reference to User:Captain scarlet's comment that "calling me a fantasist and a buly is a personal attack", I must agree. As such I have warned Jhamez84 and asked him to remember WP:NPA. Please all be civil. Adambro 21:40, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: There is a Greater Sheffield area (although not legally) with includes Eckington, Dronfield, Chesterfield, Worksop, Bolsover and (some would consider) Hope Valley.  I know this is not an administrative region, but these areas are so closely allied to Sheffield, would it be worth including them?  L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 13:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That depends on what the map is for. If it is to be used in the United Kingdom place infobox, then I think that the South Yorkshire one (below) is the better option. If for placing districts of Sheffield on a map then I don't know whether a new map is even necessary because the infobox that we had for districts was deleted—personally I don't think that the United Kingdom place infobox should be used on districts of Sheffield (most of them are not separate entities, and have no official existence) so making one specific for Sheffield would, to me, seem surplus to requirements. I also think that inventing a Greater Sheffield region verges on original research and would be regarded as highly POV by the likes of people in Dronfield, for example. —JeremyA (talk) 14:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I make a sugestion here? If you take a look at some of the entries for Cheshire, particularly in the Vale Royal district or borough of the county, you will see a map outlining all the civil parishes conatined in the district, with the particular article's civil parish highlighted. (For examples, see Northwich, Anderton with Marbury, Marston.) We are (slowly) in the process of doing this for most places within Cheshire. It might be possible to include a similar map with the different locally-understood "districts of Sheffield" outlined, and any desired particular one highlighted. It could be placed in a suitable section of an article, perhaps dealing with local administration. Worth a consideration?  DDStretch  (talk) 14:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That system works quite well, and might be suitable for Sheffield. However, I know that Manchester districts use the Greater Manchester map, and this also works quite well (see Didsbury, Moston, Moss Side or Ancoats as examples - even Manchester City Centre I think works very well!). I guess it depends on the systems and frames in place in Sheffield. Jhamez84 14:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The problem with Sheffield is that it is very hard to define the boundaries of the various districts, That is why, when I started with Wikipedia two years ago, I grouped all the district articles into articles on the political wards (see Ecclesall, for example). The council,or maybe the OS, may have some official definition of district boundaries that I don't know about, but then both mark Beauchief as Abbeydale, which many people who actually live there would be quite surprised to learn  :-)  —JeremyA (talk) 14:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit confllict) I think my own idea is that the system we use in Cheshire (see examples above) are mainly for civil parish articles, or articles that combine together settlement or places information with civil parish information, because it allows the extent of the civil parish to be shown. For primarily settlement-type articles, I think the various maps used with the red dot are very good. I can see a use for both types, actually (as in most of the uses that currently exist within Cheshire), and it depends on the purposes needed in each article.  DDStretch  (talk) 14:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, but Sheffield is almost entirely unparished!  Yeah, I see what you're saying - we have the same system but with electoral wards.  See Stannington for example.  L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 14:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I think the map/infobox we currently have on (for example) West Ecclesfield or Darnall is fine, but there's no reason with the new SY map with a pin marker cannot be placed on Crookes, Attercliffe or Handsworth, South Yorkshire.  Indeed, as you say, whilst the boarders of many districts are difficult to define, the centres are usually very easy, and all it takes is a zoom in on multimap, input the coordinates, and (assuming Jhamez84 can manage the syntax!) the pin drops right onto Crookes/Handsworth/wherever centre!L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 14:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The map/marker pin on these articles would be OK. But I think that the UK place infobox would be over the top for them, however, without that infobox I can't see how the marker pin system could be implemented without reinventing the Sheffield place infobox. —JeremyA (talk) 14:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a point of information Template:Location map Sheffield still exists (although, IMHO as someone outside Sheffield it isnt much use - there is absolutely nothing for me to get my barings from).  The way the UK infobox works  is to transclude the relevant type of Template:Location map.  In this case the proposal is to create a Template:Location map South Yorkshire. Location map can be used sans an infobox.  See Lindisfarne in "GBthumb" style. Pit-yacker 15:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thanks. Sorry for showing my ignorance—I hadn't had the need up until recently to investigate how these location maps were being done. I would have no problem with using the South Yorkshire map (sans infobox) as a location map for Sheffield districts in the manner of Lindisfarne. —JeremyA (talk) 15:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Looks good, thanks. Could you give an example of how it would work in an infobox for, say Treeton or Brinsworth (I tried adding it to the Treeton article, but obviously I don't understand the innerworkings of the UK place infobox). Thanks, —JeremyA (talk) 14:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a complicated process to set these up with a dynamic marker, so I'm hoping to obtain any appraisals and/or concerns first here before putting it to the UK place template talk page, and sitting down working out the co-ordinates. Also, I know I've had messages in the not too distant past from one user who vowed to revert inclusion of any map I've made for this area of England, which is a shame. Are there any other objections or thoughts first before it is trialled? Jhamez84 14:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that use on places like Treeton, Brinsworth, and Penistone is probably undisputed. As I understand it the dispute would relate more to using the UK place infobox at say Dore or Totley.  —JeremyA (talk) 14:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is little dispute to be made, Jhamez got his way and deleted our template, off course I oppose the implementation of UK infobox for the same reason I opposed the England Infobox in the first place. The Sheffield palce infobox was created to remove thez need for an unecessarily large and repetitive infobox, even though the ideal would be to have none altogether, we've gone back to that point, no there is nothing else to do but write content, infoboxes are the lazyman's friend. But why do I bother, It's going to be put in anyway... Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 15:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, the dispute relates only to places that would previously have used the Sheffield place infobox. The places that I mentioned as undisputed are not in Sheffield and so would never have used that infobox (and they aren't really within the scope of this Wikiproject). —JeremyA (talk) 15:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: --Just for the record I didn't delete the Sheffield infobox, nor did I even nominate it for deletion. A collective of editors agreed upon a consensus, then an administrator deleted it. Jhamez84 15:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Agree, map looks good!  As for your offer to work on a map for Greater Sheffield.  Well, it's gotta be better than my attempt was!  What would you use as the "black line" and "red shading" eqivalents as used on the dialing code map?  L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 14:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll take a look at the source materal and find out! Jhamez84 14:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes Jhamez, the user would be me. That's one objection Jhamez84. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 14:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On what grounds? Jhamez84 15:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On the grounds of you asking if any objections exist, at least one does. Got it? Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 15:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No I haven't got it. Now I'm asking for the grounds with which you are objecting? Is it inaccurate for example? We can put this to a straw poll if you like? Jhamez84 15:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No I wouldn't like, I'd like it if you took that template of yours, deleted it and brought back ours. Maybe you din't personally nominate the Sheffield place infobox but you+Pit-yacker+MRSC=UK infobox clan so whoever edits what doesn't matter as they'll the same. I cofounded this project hoping that Sheffield related articles would benefit from the coordinated efforts of members of such project and I will do anything to get rid of your template as i do not see it to be fit anywhere. Once again you asked for opinions, here it is: trash your template. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 17:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if doing so is at the expensive of a readers experience of Wikipedia? "trash your template" is not an opinion, merely a statement supported by no reasoning which does little to help. I must ask that instead of calling for the template to be deleted, you work with other editors to discuss any concerns you have about it. Adambro 18:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Every single thing Adambro, since the beginning I have said that almost all its content is unappropriate. Why the hell do you think Sheffield place was created in the first place? You are trying my patience! Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 18:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I had a first pass at calibrating it--the results are in my sandbox  —JeremyA (talk) 17:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This new map looks really good, and JeremyA's calibrations looks spot on.  Great work! Warofdreams talk 18:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. The graphic itself is the easy part, the calibrations are the toughest bit! Credit due to JeremyA for this! If the Project is happy to go ahead with this.... I wouldn't like to make the move to upload it to the Template:Infobox UK place. Jhamez84 18:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAICT, User:JeremyA has already done that.  See Treeton. Pit-yacker 20:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hands up who would like a new map? 

message: I've gone ahead and made a South Yorkshire map, thumbnailed here to the left. I'm inclined to stick with ceremonial counties for infoboxes to obtain national consistency. I also think this geographic reference frame is most famillar with, and helpful to, readers of the articles, as well as being legally defined. However, I'd be happy to create a Greater Sheffield map for use on the Greater Sheffield article, in a simillar way the 020 (UK dial code) article has a modified Greater London map. 
As to whether this map is used in South Yorkshire articles, as the maker, I think it would be great of course, but it would have to be upto, in part, members of this WikiProject, as well as the UK place template group amoungst others. Hope it is well recieved. Jhamez84 14:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good, thanks. Could you give an example of how it would work in an infobox for, say Treeton or Brinsworth (I tried adding it to the Treeton article, but obviously I don't understand the innerworkings of the UK place infobox). Thanks, —JeremyA (talk) 14:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a complicated process to set these up with a dynamic marker, so I'm hoping to obtain any appraisals and/or concerns first here before putting it to the UK place template talk page, and sitting down working out the co-ordinates. Also, I know I've had messages in the not too distant past from one user who vowed to revert inclusion of any map I've made for this area of England, which is a shame. Are there any other objections or thoughts first before it is trialled? Jhamez84 14:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that use on places like Treeton, Brinsworth, and Penistone is probably undisputed. As I understand it the dispute would relate more to using the UK place infobox at say Dore or Totley.  —JeremyA (talk) 14:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is little dispute to be made, Jhamez got his way and deleted our template, off course I oppose the implementation of UK infobox for the same reason I opposed the England Infobox in the first place. The Sheffield palce infobox was created to remove thez need for an unecessarily large and repetitive infobox, even though the ideal would be to have none altogether, we've gone back to that point, no there is nothing else to do but write content, infoboxes are the lazyman's friend. But why do I bother, It's going to be put in anyway... Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 15:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, the dispute relates only to places that would previously have used the Sheffield place infobox. The places that I mentioned as undisputed are not in Sheffield and so would never have used that infobox (and they aren't really within the scope of this Wikiproject). —JeremyA (talk) 15:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: --Just for the record I didn't delete the Sheffield infobox, nor did I even nominate it for deletion. A collective of editors agreed upon a consensus, then an administrator deleted it. Jhamez84 15:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Agree, map looks good!  As for your offer to work on a map for Greater Sheffield.  Well, it's gotta be better than my attempt was!  What would you use as the "black line" and "red shading" eqivalents as used on the dialing code map?  L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 14:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll take a look at the source materal and find out! Jhamez84 14:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes Jhamez, the user would be me. That's one objection Jhamez84. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 14:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On what grounds? Jhamez84 15:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On the grounds of you asking if any objections exist, at least one does. Got it? Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 15:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No I haven't got it. Now I'm asking for the grounds with which you are objecting? Is it inaccurate for example? We can put this to a straw poll if you like? Jhamez84 15:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No I wouldn't like, I'd like it if you took that template of yours, deleted it and brought back ours. Maybe you din't personally nominate the Sheffield place infobox but you+Pit-yacker+MRSC=UK infobox clan so whoever edits what doesn't matter as they'll the same. I cofounded this project hoping that Sheffield related articles would benefit from the coordinated efforts of members of such project and I will do anything to get rid of your template as i do not see it to be fit anywhere. Once again you asked for opinions, here it is: trash your template. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 17:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if doing so is at the expensive of a readers experience of Wikipedia? "trash your template" is not an opinion, merely a statement supported by no reasoning which does little to help. I must ask that instead of calling for the template to be deleted, you work with other editors to discuss any concerns you have about it. Adambro 18:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Every single thing Adambro, since the beginning I have said that almost all its content is unappropriate. Why the hell do you think Sheffield place was created in the first place? You are trying my patience! Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 18:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I had a first pass at calibrating it--the results are in my sandbox  —JeremyA (talk) 17:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This new map looks really good, and JeremyA's calibrations looks spot on.  Great work! Warofdreams talk 18:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. The graphic itself is the easy part, the calibrations are the toughest bit! Credit due to JeremyA for this! If the Project is happy to go ahead with this.... I wouldn't like to make the move to upload it to the Template:Infobox UK place. Jhamez84 18:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAICT, User:JeremyA has already done that.  See Treeton. Pit-yacker 20:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: South Yorkshire map

message: Hello fellow editors. A straw poll has opened today (27th March 2007) regarding the use of flags on the United Kingdom place infoboxes. There are several potential options to use, and would like as many contrubutors to vote on which we should decide upon. The straw poll is found here. If joining the debate, please keep a cool head and remain civil. We look forward to seeing you there. Jhamez84 11:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox flag straw poll 

message: As doubt has been expressed regarding links to WIKIMAPIA satellite photos and as I doubt many users will pay attention to the top right hand corner links generated by the coord dms option, I've included an external link (in addition to coord dms). Any comments?
Do you think this is a good option to implement for the Sheffield sub items in general?
This is the code I used:-
____________________________
Sheffield Winter Gardens
*[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/geo/geohack.php?params=53.379849_N_1.467997_W_scale:1000 Satellite photo/map options for this 
location (tools.wikipedia.de)]

____________________________
Sheffield Town Hall
*[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/geo/geohack.php?params=53.379994_N_1.469446_W_scale:1000 Satellite photo/map options
(tools.wikipedia.de)]
 

cheers, Wikityke 15:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good. Maybe 'Maps/Satellite photos of this location' is all that is needed as the wording for the link —Jeremy (talk) 17:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Satellite photos etc.

message: Listening to the new spoken word version of the Sheffield article it is apparent that some cleanup is needed. There are various stats and surveys that are out of date, and some parts of the article are written like it is still 2005. I think that the music section is in particularly desperate need of cleanup. As it stands I think that the article could be de-featured unless some remedial work is done. —Jeremy (talk) 20:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spring clean needed for the [[Sheffield]] article 

message: The History of Sheffield article is a featured article candidate.  JeremyA and Wikityke have been doing some excellent work on it, and it may pass, but there are still some areas which need further work.  I'm sure that help polishing the article, and constructive comments at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of Sheffield would be useful. Warofdreams talk 02:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of Sheffield FAC 

message: The term "shopping centre" doesn't seem to apply here. (The Wiki-link indicated itself describes the term as "A shopping mall (or simply mall), shopping center, or shopping arcade is a building or set of buildings that contain stores, with interconnecting walkways enabling visitors to easily walk from store to store. The walkways may be enclosed"). An earlier edit to precinct (as used in the analogous fargate article) was reverted. Any other suggestions? cheers,  Wikityke 21:19, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The website seems to describe it as a shopping centre, see a news item released today (http://www.orchardsquare.co.uk/newsdetails.asp?id=98). I'm not familiar with Orchard Square I'm afraid but it does sound like a collection of stores with interconnecting walkways so I think this would fit shopping centre unless I'm misunderstanding something. Adambro 22:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that shopping centre is OK. shopping precinct redirects to shopping mall anyway. —Jeremy (talk) 15:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK, thanks for the comments. We'll leave it as centre then.  cheers, Wikityke 15:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (I should have explained, - my doubts arose because (see the aerial photo - Satellite photos/maps options for this location ), Orchard Square is a sort of enclosed public square/pedestrian precinct with shops around its perimeter, rather than a large building with many shops inside. I'm happy to stick with centre, though). Wikityke 15:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see where you are coming from but I still think that 'shopping centre' is OK. Perhaps 'shopping arcade' might be better? —Jeremy (talk) 15:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's leave it as centre, no problem.  cheers, Wikityke 16:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Orchard Square]] - Terminology?

message: Please feel free to add your views to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Herdings Park supertram stop. It would be good to establish once and for all whether or not these articles are to be written. —Jeremy (talk) 18:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sheffield-related AfD debate 

message: As Captain Scarlet has correctly pointed out, the regular meet-up possibility listed on the main page of this project for some time never occurred.  However, this is an active project, and I imagine that most participants live in on near Sheffield, so I was wondering whether there was any interest in organising a one-off meet-up at any point. Warofdreams talk 00:05, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sheffield meet-ups 

message: Hi all.  A discussion/arguement/slagging match has come up on the above article's discussion page about a coordinates box (the offending box is here.  As it is maintained by this wikiproject, I'd like to invite the members to a poll on the inclusion or not of the coordinates box, here.  L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 20:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Tinsley Viaduct]] 

message: Biggest ball of string is the subject of a proposed deletion. As it states it is in Sheffield does anyone here know of any good reason why this is not a hoax (which is the explanation given in the nomination - I didn't make the nomination). A Google search turned up nil, as did a search of the New York Times historical archive, perhaps local? Is this real? Is this notable? Should the prod be contested? Just thought I would notify to give the article a fair shake, I know in the U.S. there are "biggest balls of string, twine etc., all over the place. IvoShandor 07:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No idea, but it sounds like rubbish.  It can go for me.  L.J.Skinnerwot|I did 16:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If there was anything in it, I'd have expected some discussion on Sheffield Forum, but a search turns up nothing relevant.  Even if it were true, it would be unlikely to be notable. Warofdreams talk 17:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Roger that, like I said I couldn't find anything either, but I figured if there was something out there someone here would know where to look. Just wanted to make sure something potentially useful wasn't being PRODded, delete away. IvoShandor 17:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Prod - Biggest ball of string