Talk:Gangsta rap/Archive 1

message: Ignoring (for the time) that this needs a lot of work, do we have any clearance on the copyright of the stuff from http://www.daveyd.com
Kieran was here :)
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I've seen on television Artists having opposition to the term "gangster rap". If this is true for the profession in general and not just some fabrication it would be prudent to mention this and replace the references with gansta'. Someone who knows for sure could please address this?
--Alan D
: um....   gangsa rap is the same as gangster rap, only pronounced using ghetto talk and dropping the final r. it is the exact same thing...
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I'm not sure that this text legally belongs in wikipedia. It is apparently a straight quote from an interview given by Ice T to http://www.daveyd.com. 
:"The first record that came out along those lines was Schooly D's 'P.S.K.' Then the syncopation of that rap was used by me when I made Six In The Morning. The vocal delivery was the same: '...P.S.K. is makin' that green', '...six in the morning, police at my door'. When I heard that record I was like "Oh shit!" and call it a bite or what you will but I dug that record. My record didn't sound like P.S.K., but I liked the way he was flowing with it. P.S.K. was talking about Park Side Killers but it was very vague. That was the only difference, when Schooly did it, it was "...one by one, I'm knockin' em out".
:All he did was represent a gang on his record. I took that and wrote a record about guns, beating people down, and all that with Six In The Morning. At the same time my single came out, Boogie Down Productions hit with Criminal Minded, which was a gangster-based album. It wasn't about messages or "You Must Learn", it was about gangsterism. That was the New York shit. So there's no question that I was before Eazy because if you go back to 1982 with Cold Wind Madness, I was talking about being "the pimp, the player, the woman-layer", but Six In The Morning would be the first "Gangsta Rap", so to speak. After that, Cube wrote Boyz In Tha Hood which was like a bite of Six In The Morning [with the syncopation]. It's like "Six in the morning, police at my door..." and "The boyz in the hood are always hard...". If you play Boyz In The Hood at the same time as Six In The Morning, you'll hear they even break at the same point."(www.daveyd.com) 
-- sodium
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If the the source of the citation is given and if it's not to long it can be considered to fall under fair use.
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How much is too long? This seems pretty large for a quote. Presumably www.daveyd paid money to Ice T for an exclusive interview, I think we would probably need their agreement to run it. -- sodium
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yes, i guess it's too long after all. Wathiik 
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I removed the bulk of the article, because the first part is factually inaccurate in multiple ways.  If someone wants to defend it, I'll provide more details, but I'm not going to take the time otherwise.  The gangsta slang section is best done at hip hop slang, not here, I think. Tuf-Kat
Other important gangsta rappers include Comptons Most Wanted, Above The Law and 2Pac. Boogie Down Production's first album "Criminal Minded" probably also influenced gangster rap, and both the Beastie Boys and Run DMC were sampled and otherwise quoted by NWA, Above The Law and Eazy E, who popularized the new style that at first was basically hardcore rap, but later on, former NWA member Dr. Dre introduced more melodic elements especially from the realm of P Funk, creating a new style called G Funk. The style flourished on the west coast, but eventually many east coast artists adopted the lyrical style. Musically, however, the east did not abandon his own brand of hip hop. In the 1990s, at least on a lyrical level gangster rap also influenced rappers from the east coast, e.g. DMX, Jay Z and Notorious BIG. 
Currently major gangster rappers include Ice Cube, who still follows the original P funk; Snoop Dogg, who raps in a G funk; and Warren G who still know as one of the Greatest rappers of all time, credited as creating a lot of the spirit of rap.
:Wow. First of all, Dr. Dre didn't create G-Funk, Above The Law did, but go to the G-Funk article to debate it. Then, lol, Ice Cube follows the original P-Funk?? really? ever heard anything from Funkadelic? Ice Cube is just one of the numerous rappers who sampled Funkadelic. And about Warren G, please, show some objectivity and avoid such things as "Greatest rapper of all time" and claiming that he created anything as he only started in the early 90's. --SuperBleda 05:43, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 2001

message: Gangster slang is characterized by of course gangsters who indirectly refer to something in a coded language, as part of the gangster lifestyle which consists of short words that mean something else. 
*dawg naturally came from the bucanneer section by the endzone, known as the dog pound whom a football player would call when they made a touchdown.
*wanksta-referential term debuting from the gangster 50 cent which means not a gangster.
:Probablly a portmanteau of wanker and gangsta/gangster.
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Wanksta wasn't invented by 50 Cent. Its been used before. For instance in the song "Real Motherphuckin G's" by Eazy E, one of the other rappers calls Dr. Dre a wanksta.
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Some notes, primarily for myself, though if anyone else wants to pick up what I'm putting down, feel free.
*There should be some mention of bling-bling.
*The Great Adventures of Slick Rick cover should be replaced by Rhyme Pays or O.G. - Original Gangsta.
*Separate out Mafioso rap.
*Add a disclaimer explaining that gangsta rap is less precise than gangsta hip hop, and make sure that's what's used throughout
*Surely there's more to say about Straight Outta Compton
*The para immediately under Hip hop moves west -- early 1990s could be expanded to include specific mention of Ice-T and such, and explain how the LA underground scene developed in the mid 80s
*It's not obvious Doggystyle's album cover is Doggystyle -- it needs a caption.  Thus, for consistency's sake, they all should.
*More on what the East Coast was up to during the whole G funk thing (the last paragraph will overlap, but this is fixable)
Tuf-Kat
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On the title of this page:
I posit that gangsta rap is much, much more commonly used than gangsta hip hop a more accurate title (or maybe it's more precise -- I can never remember the difference).  However, for the majority of listeners, I don't think they are particularly aware of the difference and consider rap and hip hop more or less synonyms (or are aware of the difference in the same way most people are aware that who and whom aren't quite the same thing), so they wouldn't be surprised or disturbed to click on a link to gangsta rap and be taken to a page called gangsta hip hop.  Would it be a violation of naming conventions to move this (and East Coast rap, West Coast rap, Southern rap) to gangsta hip hop? Tuf-Kat
Google results (surprising)
*"Gangsta hip hop" - 769
*"Gangsta rap" - 60,800
*"Gangster hip hop" - 37,500
*"Gangster rap" - 8,090
I don't see that there's anything wrong with saying that "gangsta rap is a type of hip hop" - and gangsta rap is the more common name, I believe. Names of music genres don't have to make logical sense... Martin
: Technically, gangsta rap ISN'T a type of hip-hop. It's a name given to West Coast hip-hop acts, primarily by watchdog groups headed by people like C. Delores Tucker, and it has generally negative connotations. East Coast hip-hop is not properly termed "gangsta rap." --b. Touch 22:02, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I thought this was clear, hip-hop is a culture, rap is a music that belongs to hip-hop, thus, there is no such thing as "gangsta hip-hop", and it's not valid to claim that "gangsta rap" is a type of hip-hop, however it's correct to claim that gangsta rap is a type of rap. --SuperBleda 05:43, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: gangster slang

message: There are many errors in this site.  The author confuses Ruthless Records (record company) with Death Row Records (record company).  Further, many of the rappers referred to in this article as gangsta rappers would be offended by that title.  Public Enemy never spoke of killing anyone in the literal since in their music.  I could name 40 other errors.  
This might be contraversial, but I think that there should be mentioning about the influence of Jewish Americans in Gangsta rap.  I.E., Jerry Heller - NWA, etc.
:hahaha, sure, but he only was their manager, or something like this, it's not as if he actually rapped or did beats. and anyways, yeah, how can Public Enemy be considered gangsta rap. btw, shouldn't we say something in the article about studio gangsta rap? (i'm talking about "studio gangstas") --SuperBleda 05:43, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  many errors in this site 

message: Gangsta rap is a term properly used only to describe West coast hip hop (Deathrow) or West Coast-influenced rap (i.e. Master P's roster). Mafioso rappers such as Raekwon and Nas "Escobar" were strongly influenced by Kool G Rap, who's narrative-drivent styles is tied to East Coast hardcore rap more than anything else. While Mafioso rap contains violence and profanity, it isn't to the extremities of that of so-called "gangsta rap". Its true emphasis lies in the art of storytelling, not shock effect. Some east coast rappers fit the definition (Mobb Deep, C-N-N, Gravediggaz, the G-unit Collective etc) but they are more properly termed as East Coast hardcore rappers, or simply East Coast rappers. --Chubdub 20:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some one needs to revert this article back to its previous version, since half of it was deleted by a vandal. --Chubdub 02:14, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mafioso Rap

message: Alot of young people actaully believe that a "Thug Life" is to be admired. Yet a lot of the pioneers of Gangsta Rap are now mainstream Hollywood darlings. Several of the early Gangsta Rappers came from a middle class background with both parents. Ice-T, Ice Cube are now making comedies and mainstream movies while some children who truely believed in a Gangsta life style are in prison or living in poverty today. How many of the original Gangsta Rappers now live in the areas they sing about? Some of the other leaders and founders of Gangsta Rap have died before their time. I see it as pure entertainment, but some young people actually believe that Gangsta life style is the way too go. Education is the only way out for poor people. Education is the only way for a better a life. Remember Gangsta Rap is only for entertainment.
:I agree with you. But (I don't mean to sound like a smartass), Ice Cube is actually one of the few gangsta rappers that still lives in his old hood.
:The most succesful rap artist, or gangsta rapper in terms of sale (in my eyes in all terms) 2pac said in his Ressurection documentary(freely translated from a swedish sub.. but you'll get the message):
:"It's like you've got the Vietnam war right?
:And just because the reporters show us the pictures here at home - of the war, and that's what ended the war
:- or probably the shit would have gone on longer.
:And no one would have known exactly what had happen
:- would we had believe that they died in a brave manner, in some beautiful way?
:Just because we saw the horror, it made us stop the war.
:I thought, "That's what I wanna do as an artist, as a rapper. I wanna show the graphical details of what I see, of my society and hopefully it ends, right there."
:"There's a bad side and that's when children see you and try to copy it.
:I haven't figured it all out yet, but a positive thing is...
:When a child who lives in a house where the mother is a crackhead
:- he hear the rap. He's like, 
:"It's like this everyday. So I don't have to be ashamed."
:It goes both ways.
:For me, it's like, when I sing:
:"I live the Thug Life baby, I'm hopeless."
:On person might hear that and just like how it sounds. 
:But I do it for the children who lives a Thug Life and feel like it's hopeless.
:So when I say "hopeless", and when I say it like that, I reach him.
:And even if, when I reach him...
:- makes it look like it's wonderful to live that life for the kid who doesn't live it..
:I can't help it. It's a phase of life. He will leave Thug Life soon enough.
:But for the person I tried to reach, he picks it up and I can speak with him. " --84.217.148.124 22:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Has Gangsta Rap duped many young people into a life of crime and poverty? 

message: I changed 'focus on the lifestyles of inner city youth] to 'criminals'. GMF and Public Enemy (for example) both focus heavily on violence in inner city life, but you wouldn't call the gangsta. The defining characteristic of gangsta is that the rapper adopts the persona of a criminal. Ashmoo 07:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

message: What's up
*I added a short section on earlier gangsta themes, such as the 'rapping' of Hustlers Convention, Iceberg Slim and Stagolee. Let me know if there is anything that needs to be fixed. It is important for this article to be historical.
*I changed the 80s part. I think we should go with Ice-T's version of events (I have added a small quote with link). If anyone disagrees with Ice-T's version then I think they should cite references. The section should gradually be expanded with a chronological description of other important gangsta groups before 1990, especially BDP, Kool G Rap and Too Short.
*After 1990 the article repeats things and needs work. What do people suggest needs to be fixed? I am in favor of a chronological approach. I don't think that east coast rap before 97 should be ignored, groups like Onyx, Black Moon, Mobb Deep, as well as Wu Tang, Nas and Biggie, and others too of course, need to be mentioned.
*I disagree that "Gangsta rap purely pertains to the west coast, mainly due to the more explicit nature of gang cultures found in L.A." Check the Ice-T interview. PSK is about a gang. Gangsta rap is not just about gangs but generally about the criminal lifestyle. But there are East Coast lyrics about gangs too. I agree that 'gangsta rap' is a term created by the media and has been abused. On the other hand many MCs proudly use 'gangsta rap' for their music and 'gangsta' for themselves. We should add something in the beginning of the article about the use of the term. I remember back before the whole East/West beef the term 'gangsta' was used for a lot of groups wherever they were from.
Let me know what people think about those 4 points.
--Taramenos 19:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: edits 23rd july

message: *I removed this paragraph:
"Until the very late 1980s, hip hop had been dominated by the East Coast (essentially New York City, though Philadelphia and New Jersey also had vital scenes), with West Coast hip hop a curiosity dominated by dance-heavy and critically reviled electro hop artists like Egyptian Lover and World Class Wreckin' Cru. The latter crew included Dr. Dre before he joined N.W.A." Although it is interesting I think it belongs in the "West Coast hip-hop" article.
*I added more info on BDP, Schooly D and Ice-T.
*I edited the sections so the 1986-1990 section is pretty much OK. I started working on Ice-T's work after 1990.
--Taramenos 19:02, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits July 27th:

message: This must be a mistake or vandalism by a prankster. someone needs to edit this once the lock has been taken off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.30.132 (talk • contribs) 
:Done. BTW, if you become a user you won't be blocked by that. ReverendG 17:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lil' Flip is not a pioneer of gangsta rap 

message: The article talks about LL Cool J being the first one to use the word "gangster" in rap in 1985, and reports that PSK is from 1986. Schoolly D's Gangster Boogie is from 1984, and therefore should be noted as the earliest use of that word in rap songs, and PSK is from 1985. Sources there :  , or otherwise Google "schoolly d gangster boogie 1984" or "schoolly d psk 1985". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.147.133.191 (talk • contribs) 
Just because you use the word gangster does not mean it is gangsta rap. Gangster by most definitions is a criminal. Schooly D or LL Cool J never referd to themselfs as criminals, neither did their lyrics refer to themselfs as pimps, gangstas, or drug dealers. Their lyrics never used words like HO and refering to women as Bitches.—Preceding unsigned comment added by John handcock (talk • contribs) 
:Agreed. Schoolly D is more appropriately considered an influence. Besides using the word "gangster" (hardly a huge accomplishment), Schoolly is also notable for (I'm gonna quote myself here) embracing an antisocial persona without explicit irony. Plus, there's the song "P.S.K.". And his early albums (mostly his first) did in fact have guns and threats (albeit cartoonish ones) of violence.
:I'm willing to file Schoolly under "Hardcore rappers". — edgarde 09:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schoolly D and Early Gangsta Rap