Talk:Avraham Stern

message: A very very one-sided article that violates all the NPOV rules.  Phrases like "freedom fighter" (for someone who attacked a civilian bus - btw his name was Shlomo, not Moshe) are unacceptable.  Some of it is whitewash, like the WWII paragraph that fails to mention Stern's repeated attempts to negotiate an agreement with the Axis that involved Lehi fighting for the Nazis?  In fact, why is he "Yair" and not "Stern" as an encyclopedia should have?  This article reads like it was written by his mother.  Btw, he was probably murdered but he was not tied up first.  He was shoved towards the window and "shot while trying to escape".  -- bdm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.51.32.148 (talk • contribs) 
:Hello again. Orignally the piece was published by the publishing company Hotza'at Yair in Israel, and the original text was written by Israel Eldad. It is I who translated it into ENglish from the original Hebrew, and I thought there would be no problem with publishing my own tranlsation, however the English version is about to be published as well. It is therefore that I decided to remove the article. --Yiftach Ofek —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.32.128.73 (talk • contribs) 
::There's still some POV stuff here: "He was executed for his role as leader of the Lehi" but I'm going to leave it. Jhobson1 13:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: Avraham Stern's memorial day is attended every year by Israeli political and government officials.
IOW, Israeli officials are accused of memorializing a terrorist.
 Proof please? Humus sapiens 06:48, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Stern is treated as national hero across a wide spectrum of Israeli politics (not only the right).  I've seen his annual memorial on TV, though it was quite a few years ago. There were certainly politicians there.  Don't forget that a considerable number of Knesset members are the children of people (until recently, the people themselves) who were in the Irgun or Lehi in 1948, and of course don't forget that Stern's disciple Shamir even got to be Prime Minister.  From the 1950s onwards there was a gradual "rehabilitation" of the image of the Irgun and Lehi, accelerating for obvious reasons in the Menachem Begin period.  I'll find a picture of the Stern commemorative stamp... --Zero 07:31, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks. I apologize. Guess I'll have to eat my hat now. Humus sapiens 07:53, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

text:  it's all relative... it's in the middle, he should have been treated as national hero of course since he played a large part in Israel's independence from the British, but during most of the years Mapai's  powers clouded his memory as well as all history of the underground groups. This has gradually changed but he's still not a pivot in Israeli politics and usually you won't find too many prominent Israelis on his grave on memomrial day - in fact, not even on Begin and Zabotinsky recently after Kadima's creation. Amoruso 13:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

text:  Says a lot about the modern State of Israel and contemporary Zionism when they officially celebrate a terrorist who targeted innocent civilians and sought an alliance against the British with Nazi Germany.  While Britain fought the Nazis in Europe and North Africa, and Hitler was exterminating the Jews, Stern and his gang blew up civilian buses, murdered British troops and attacked Arab villagers in the name of Israel.  And then he knocked on Hitler's door.  Israeli kids don't have a chance. 80.6.30.24 02:14, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving to talk 

message: There was also a 19th century Polish Jewish poet of that name...-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  08:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambig needed 

message: Brief bio of Moshe Hazani published with his article: "MOSHE HAZANI, PHD, is a lecturer in the Department of Criminology and the Interdisciplinary Department of Social Sciences at the Bar Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel. He received his Ph.D. from the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, for a study focusing on psychohistory. His major field of interest is deviance related to extreme worldviews, such as religiously sanctioned terrorism, racism and its manifestations, genocide (Nazi, communist, and western), and crimes committed by people involved in revolutionary movements. Dr. Hazani is also a columnist in the Israeli press."  Anyone reading the article will immediately see that my summary of it is extremely conservative.  Hazani in fact argues that the thanatophilia (love of death) Stern shared with the Nazis was one of the things that attracted him to the possibility of a German alliance.  I may yet add more of Hazani's  theories to the article. --Zerotalk 04:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't seem of any interest to this article. Perhaps it belongs in an article about Hazani. When I have the time I'll write a complete biography of Yair, this is a short summary and there's no room for psychoanalysis here or fringe articles concerning his mind when there are many people still living who actually know the person. He was always willing to die for his cause, it's true. Amoruso 10:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hazani 

message: This article was automatically  assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 10:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating 

message: Please refer to the page of Lehi(group) before (wrongly) reverting this page again. First of all, Mass reverting is not allowed. And during the revisions, information such as the hebrew word for immigration to the homeland of Israel was deleted. This is not an allowed behavior on wikipedia. Secondly, the idea that Lehi referred to itself as a terrorist organization based on a false quotation put in by someone who didn't even read the source, lest the original source, is pure WP:OR. The german proposal also has been discussed in length at the appropriate article, which refutes some of the unequivocal statements appearing here. Amoruso (talk) 15:29, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Take up your complaints with David Yisraeli,who first cited the material in his doctorate at  Bar Ilan University in 1974, The Palestine Problem in German Politics, 1889-1945.Nishidani (talk) 17:10, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your childish reply has nothing to do with the issues I'm afraid. Amoruso (talk) 20:45, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not interested in your fears. Your attempt to edit the documentary record and remove information that is well-known, and frequently cited in scholarship, consists of pretexts based on false claims about ostensible WP:OR violations. Reporting what a Stern gang text says of its terroristic methods does not constitute original research, but simply annotates the facts.Nishidani (talk) 09:52, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One article, unsigned and unknown who wrote it, does not prove anything. Taking anything from it and using it in a blatant childish and pov-warrior-like way constitutes WP:OR and a grave violaton of wikipedia guidelines. Repeating information that you've never seen more than once in the same article is also POV pushing. Such behavior will not be tolerated. Amoruso (talk) 12:17, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Such behaviour will not be tolerated. By whom? You are the recent editor to take exception with the edit, and your reasons show you are not familiar with the books from which that material is taken. Nothing you write in here makes much sense, so I presume you are grasping at straws to remove information you personally dislike.Nishidani (talk) 18:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you saying you read that work ? that you are familiar with the subject ? Please don't resort to that... With all due respect, the situation of the german proposal is already explained, in detail, in the Lehi (group) article. The article mentioning the word "terror" is also mentioned there. It's difficult therefore to presume WP:AGF here although I'm really trying to. If your sole objective is to insert words like "terrorist" or other words to stain the article, then I think you're not contributing to the article, and you should take it elsewhere. Amoruso (talk) 01:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I've read the work. Lehi and Stern described their acts as as 'terroristic' and therefore, on wiki rules, they can be described as 'terrorists'. It's as simple as that. Nishidani (talk) 10:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, you just proved that you're lying. That's because they've never done that. There's only one unsigned article. In fact, Shamir has written specifically that their acts can not be called terroristic, therefore it's also contradictory to fact. Amoruso (talk) 15:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Your objection is based on what you perceive to be the truth, i.e. your OR. We are not to judge the truth of sources, but to give verifiable sources of reliable quality, which both Yisraeli and Brenner (to note but two of many historians who use that document) are. Go read the rulebook.Nishidani (talk) 15:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're not adding anything new to the article but misquoting (the terrorist issue). Amoruso (talk) 19:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  latest revisions 

message: There I refuted the allegation of the terrorist "admission", which is an WP:OR anyway. Please refer to there. Amoruso (talk) 03:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Same dispute moved to Lehi (group) 

message: The article gives only the Lehi version.  It should give the British version as well, and mention how Morton won at least 3 lawsuits over the issue. Zerotalk 12:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Trying to fix this, but better sources for the Lehi version are needed.  The given source (Golan) does not support the previous text.  It does not say "then shot from behind", nor does it say he was handcuffed, only that handcuffs had been brought. Zerotalk 15:02, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

text: The detailed investigation by Ian Black that I have cited covers more bases than anything else I have read.  I can't find it on the web, but I can email a copy to anyone who asks.  Zerotalk 15:42, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV tag on death section 

message: This has recently been added, based on an assertion made in the Economist: "Stern's nickname, Yair, is still chosen by many Israeli's as a name for their sons". This is a broad claim with no evidence, despite the reference in the Economist. In fact, the name Yair is a biblical name and has been common among religious and secular Jews for many centuries. See: http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/172095/jews-named-yair-arent-named-after-a-terrorist for further information.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.183.47.135 (talk) 04:01, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I sympathise with this comment very much.  The Economist's claim is only true because it uses the weasel word "many" that could mean anything from dozens to thousands.   Within the rules, we can take two paths here.  We can add the response from Tablet Magazine, which is just as admissible as the Economist book review, or we can delete the claim altogether.  I vote for deleting it altogether; what do other people think?  Zerotalk 05:02, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I add that nobody knows in these "many" what percentage would name their son "Yair" in commemoration of Avraham Stern and not in reference to Yair Nitzani or Yair Lapid. We should delete this on the basis that "exceptional claims require exceptional sources". Pluto2012 (talk) 17:16, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name Yair 

message: Jewish paramilitary organization Irgun. In September 1940, Stern founded a breakaway militant Jewish American group named STERN, called the "Stern Gang" by the British authorities and by the mainstream in the Yishuv Jewish establishment.[1]  The STERN was an anti-Nazi fighting group, that was led by Americans and the UK, was funded to combat the Nazi ideology that started in Egypt.  Nazism was of French and Egyptian ideologies, that favored immigration for a Nazi plunder - organized looting - of European countries, and was often perpetrated by those favoring radical and worker-oriented unionist movements -- radical labor organizations. 2603:8080:6D03:469:A97C:9DB9:4EFD:B98F (talk) 08:03, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Complete nonsense. Zerotalk 11:12, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 February 2023 

message: I found the paragraph stating that the ceremony
:"attended by Israeli politicians and government officials is held each year..."
A) The Times of Israel source says nothing of the kind. It's from 2012, and it notes that that year nobody one might have expected did show up.
B) Not before Begin brought the Right to power in 1977, I'm sure. After that, maybe, but unsourced.
So I took it out. Looks like "true believers" are still around - and editing out of conviction & wishful thinking. Arminden (talk) 20:55, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gov't participating in annual ceremony?