Talk:Nahum Goldmann

message: *Article: :de:Nahum Goldmann
*Corresponding English-language article: Nahum Goldmann
*Worth doing because: new information
*Originally Requested by:--210.128.247.147 04:08, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Translation details

message: The footnote is to Gruse's text, but he translates it differently. What is the proper procedure for wiki translations? In any case, this one has to be adjusted silightly. cf .'Der Präsident der Vereinigten Staaten empfängt Verhaltensmaßregeln von den drei Weisen von Zion.'Nishidani (talk) 18:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anecdote 

message: : (a)By 1939, neither Stephen Wise nor any other Jewish or Zionist leader had mounted a campaign against the American quota system that denied European Jewry admission into the USA. The efforts had been put into 'rehabilitating Palestine'. Bernard A Rosenblatt, a veteran member of the Zionist Organization of America, saw Hitler’s policies as ensuring a Jewish majority in Palestine.Aaron Berman (1990) Nazism, the Jews, and American Zionism, 1933-1948 Wayne State University Press, 1990  p 22 & pp 31-33
:</blockquote>(b)Zionists like American Jewish Congress president Stephen Wise – advocates of public protest against Nazi atrocities rather than the quiet diplomacy embraced by the JDC and the American Jewish Committee – thought it best not to criticize the rigid US quotas, or the White Paper, in light of the piublicly isolationist mood that guided Washington,'Monty Noam Penkower, Decision on Palestine Deferred: America, Britain and Wartime Diplomacy, 1939-1945,Routledge, 2002, p.20</blockquote>
::Ashley's original material follows an RS. I supported it by mentioning above Monty Noam Penkower's remark.
::I contest simply: 'American quota system that denied European Jewry admission into the USA'
::As I think we all agree, the facts show that the American quota system did not deny European Jewry admission into the USA. Like all other groups, Jewish immigration was restricted according to a quota system.
::The passage on Wise, as originally placed, can only justify itself by being accompanied with Nahum Goldmann's own position. All remarks here of a general kind must serve only as background to throw into relief what Nahum Goldmann was doing or thinking. Ashley above has now contextualized on this page Goldmann's own retrospective interpretation of this policy failure.
::(i)So the original passage re Wise and other leaders is RS, but must be modified re quota system (for this is untrue or misleadingly phrased). (ii)It can be supported by the quote from Penkower and ref. (iii) and then needs to be followed by an RS on Goldmann's position with regard to the failure to make a public campaign, or make greater public efforts to secure more Jewish immigration.
::I'm in terrible haste, due to external distractions, but off the top of my head, this is my first reflection.Nishidani (talk) 09:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Like Sophie's Choice. An overt campaign of vigour might well have backfired. The second option was easier for political and diplomatic reasons. The declaration of war immediately has Roosevelt setting up a centre to study what to do when American won the war, which was a certainty, and a key point was to take over what was left of the British empire. There was a lot of hosility to Britain in American elite circles, and an undisguised intention to take them out geopolitically. To blame Britain, which had the Palestinian Mandate, was acceptable to the American elite, and fitted the long term strategy of Zionism. Cynicism, or ultra-realism, all around was the name of the game.No one looks good, all shared blame, but this was fundamentally the result of Nazism. The crisis within Zionism repeated what occurred in 1933-4 in the split between socialist Zionists and the WZO over a boycott proposal. The latter decided to deal with the Nazis, (Ha'avara Agreement) instead of immediate confrontation, which had a far stronger chance of working, but had also 'communist' tinges. This cast of mind of the leaders, in turn, draws on an age-old, almost instinctive Jewish tradition still resonating at that time, to find an accommodation with persecutors (Herzl with Plehve, Jabotinsky with Petliura and not confront them directly, understandable but, in the end, fatal for the period. The lesson of never seeking an accommodation is one of the problems of post-war Zionism in Israel. A swing from accommodation to the powers-that-be, to one of extreme refusal, as a rising 'power-that-be', to compromise with the one people who had nothing to do with the history of persecution in the first place, the Palestinian Arabs.  Nishidani (talk) 10:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No cohesive policy possible. Earlier Zionism had deep rifts between a Socialist and an elitarian conservative body, later under challenged from a revisionist school. Nishidani (talk) 10:51, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ashley, we're talking at cross-purposes. I am actively supporting the edits you have made, only making suggestions for nuancing.Nishidani (talk) 10:32, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry if the above sounded strident, that was not the intent. I wasn't shouting, merely agreeing with what you had written....As to the nuance the Voyage of the damned shows graphically that the quota system was not aiding or being fought (effectively)....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 10:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wise 

message: has got an indent for some reason, can anyone spot the fault?....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 14:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Nishidani (talk) 15:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Post WWII

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: Unbelievable there was nothing on the page about these two organizations that are a huge part of Goldmann's legacy so I just added. MaskedSinger (talk) 15:40, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  MFJC and NGF