Talk:List of Iberian Jews

message: The issue is very simple. We have good sources saying that both of these distinguished gentlemen may have been Jewish. We are reporting what these sources say. To refuse to do so on the grounds that you don't like what they say is a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:V. --20.138.246.89 11:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Reporting anything that is "original research" on Wikipedia is ...in itself...original research."  How?  All research is ultimately original, so by that argument Wikipedia would be pretty small. WP:NOR prohibits publishing research on Wikipedia that has not previously been published in a reputable source.  Are you denying that the Encyclopaedia Judaica is a reputable source?--20.138.246.89 17:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm denying its a wholistically neutral and reliable source for this type of information, yes. LaGrange 08:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: "this type" meaning "people of sorta-kinda-maybe Jewish ancestry" LaGrange 08:55, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That part is true - if a reliable source made this argument, it's irrelevant if any Wikipedia editors think that it was original research on the reliable source's part. If there is reason to doubt their argument, we must say "Source X made this argument". As for the inclusion of these people on this list.... I'm afraid it's true that you have to have a source that says "X was Jewish", not had Jewish ancestry, possibly, etc. Mad Jack 17:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Except some scholar's pet theory on Jewish symbolism in Don Quixote is no more reputable than someone's interpretation of a movie. LaGrange 08:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: We're all about keeping readers less informed here at Wikipedia. :) Mad Jack 16:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miguel Cervantes/Christopher Columbus 

message: It looks like this article and other too broad lists involving HUGE numbers of Jews (List of Ashkenazi Jews, List of Sephardic Jews, etc.) were started, worked on for a little while, and then abandoned. Obviously this list will never come close to even being 50% complete, so I ask: what is the point of even having this list when we already have more specific Jew lists to cover most or all of these people?  --WassermannNYC 13:09, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How is this too broad?  It covers two countries.  Which more specifil lists cover Spain and Portugal? --Runcorn 13:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think he meant List of Ashkenazi Jews and List of Sephardic Jews are needlessly broad. Which is true. Obviously this list itself isn't broad at all. Mehmeda 21:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'd reconsider these too-broad lists... 

message: Anyway, I think this dispute can be ended quickly with just a few questions answered. After that it becomes obvious what to do.
To Newport and whoever else wishes to give their input:
*Do you think, and can you back up, that the theories on the converso origins of Columbus and Cervantes are majority views? And just for clarification purposes, a majority view would be one that is generally held as the mainstream truth, even if there are viewpoints opposing it.
*Does having converso ancestors denote that the person in question is worthy of being called Sephardic Jewish (also read: Iberian Jewish, for the purpose of this list)? I ask this because even if you take the converso origin theories to hold water, it would only pertain to Columbus' mother's father's family, and Cervante's mother's family. What expands "family" we'd have to look up. 
*Is there reason to believe the references on Columbus having Jewish ancestors are stronger than those that write he was Italian, Basque, and Catalan? If so, where could we find this?
So, hopefully if these questions are answered in the way I expect them to be, the point I've tried but failed to make becomes clearer. The point, is, in part, that.. "..to give undue weight to a significant-minority view..might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute"... and that although this is a perfectly legitimate minority view, as a minority view you can only write about it in articles pertaining to minority views on the subject. Or in other words, "Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them... But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it should not be represented as the truth..." In which case, all these good references that we dug up in the process of talking about this can be used to embellish and improve the already lacking Origin theories of Christopher Columbus, and create the completely missing Miguel de Cervantes#Origin Theories. So lastly, does anyone have a big problem with moving it to the articles based on the theories and if so why? Mehmeda 21:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please let's not invent language.  A majority view is one held by the majority of experts, not necessarily an overwhelming majority.  To describe a majority as a "significant-minority" makes no sense.  Judaism is often an ethnic category.  Nobody would suggest that you have to demonstrate that someone was a practising Jew to put him in this list, only that he had Jewish ancestry.  We report what reliable sources say - if there are such sources saying that he had Jewish ancestry, we say so.  Anything else is either original research or forcing a point of view.  And this is a placve to report such facts, which is not to suggest that they should not go elsewhere.--Newport 11:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what you're talking about with your "Please let's not invent language" point. Maybe you read it wrong. Anyway, you're pussyfooting the questions and not answering them. You didn't say if you believe the theories are majority views or mainstream, nor have you proved that they are. And if they're not, you're not giving a justification for why you're allowed to breach WP:NPOV#Undue Weight and WP:Fringe theories policies and guidelines for how to deal with non-mainstream viewpoints. You also didn't answer the third or fourth questions at all. You write "And this is a placve to report such facts" suggesting that now Cervantes and Columbus having Sephardic backgrounds are facts. Since when was that established? Wikipedians do report what reliable sources say, and in this case the reliable sources say a common minority view is that Columbus and Cervantes have Sephardic ancestors. On the other hand, you're reporting that Columbus and Cervantes DO have converso backgrounds and, in turn, ARE Sephardic Jews. Do you not see the difference? You also write "Anything else is either original research or forcing a point of view." What is "anything else"? You're not being clear. And how is assuming the theory of Columbus' Jewish origins are more legitimate than others not forcing a point of view on your part? If you're not going to directly address the problem and instead act like there isn't one then Mediation is a complete waste of time and this will never be resolved. The last question is also important for understanding where you're coming from at all. You haven't mentioned once why in WP:NPOV the policy for dealing with non-mainstream viewpoints can be completely ignored. Mehmeda 23:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Stuff from COI

message: See the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#"Jewish descent" versus Jew concerning the problems of using the term "Jewish descent" versus "Jew" as well as the related proposal. Thank you, IZAK 09:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Jewish descent" versus Jew 

message: Like spanish i am there's a lot of people in this list that never had saw anywhere neither talking about it. I think there's a little magnificied the relevancy of some of these persons in the list. PD: Excuse my english.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.219.58.250 (talk) 20:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ? 

message: The following diff had a lot of links deleted from the page. Many of them could be easily sourced with the links available in their respective articles. Diego (talk) 15:34, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Preserve links 

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thread_title:  External links modified