Talk:Simple Plan/Genre Disputes

message: Proposed straw poll deleted by creator
:This is not a proper way of determining what should be in the article.  What is important is what can be verified, articles from reliable sources per WP standards.  Our opinions don't matter.  It is why I have worked hard to keep personal opinion out of the article.  I realize you might say, well, it is only a straw poll.  But the purpose of the talk page is to determine how best to improve the article.  Opinions of random WPers is not the way to do so.--Wehwalt 21:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well... it IS only a straw poll.  And also, the definition of a word is what people think it means.  If most people were to think in a thousand years that the word "monkey" were to mean what we think the word "pencil" means today, in a thousand years from now, a monkey WOULD be what we think a pencil is today.  Similarly, if most people were to think that Simple Plan is a certain genre, than Simple Plan WOULD be that genre.  I hope that made sense.  And plus, this IS just a straw poll. -- Ian Lee 21:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We also have very, very few reliable sources stating that SP is any genre. -- Ian Lee 21:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh. let me see . . . 
http://media.www.newsrecord.org/media/storage/paper693/news/2005/11/02/ArtsEntertainment/PopPunk.Band.Played.To.All.Ages.Past.Sunday-1041424.shtml?sourcedomain=www.newsrecord.org&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com
http://media.www.pittnews.com/media/storage/paper879/news/2005/10/17/Ae/PopPunk.Waves.Its.White.Flag.Surrenders-1786002.shtml?sourcedomain=www.pittnews.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com
http://www.inmusicwetrust.com/articles/49p16.html
http://www.chicagogigs.com/concerts/simple-plan-tickets.htm
http://www.chartattack.com/damn/2002/05/0112.cfm
http://media.www.dailylobo.com/media/storage/paper344/news/2002/09/04/Culture/Bands.Punk.Status.Falls.Short-266087.shtml?sourcedomain=www.dailylobo.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com
I can go on . . . I'm not sure all of them qualify as rs, but I can match you article for article for those who say they aren't pop punk!--Wehwalt 21:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's just a straw poll... why do you care? Ian Lee 04:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The talk page has a specific purpose.  If the poll is not here for the purpose of discussing and implementing improvements to the article, then maybe it should not be here.--Wehwalt 08:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It IS here for improving the article.  I think that if we can get a sample of what most people say Simple Plan is (I'm reffering to the "definition is what we make it" argument above), then we will know what to call Simple Plan, whatever the genre.  Ian Lee 02:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll repeat, WP is not about us.  It is about reporting what OTHER PEOPLE, not WP editors, have said, in reliable sources.  WP editors are not a RS, nor are we a representative sample  We gather what is out there.  We do not create it ourselves.  For example, I could ask for a straw poll on whether W is a war criminal, and if 51 percent said yes, we'd put it in the article?  Not likely.  As I have indicated, the RS out there say SP is pop punk,  If you have RS to the contrary, perhaps you'd care to provide the URLs?--Wehwalt 03:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No... what is not likely, is that 50+% of us will say that W is in fact a war criminal... and if for some reason, more than 50% did say that W is a war criminal, I would understand why we would not include that a sample taken showed that people thought W was a war criminal.  However, I do not understand why something so trivial as a band's genre should not be allowed a staw poll.  People change the band's genre constantly on the page, and if we really cannot come to a consensus as to what SP's genre is, I do not see how it is in any way possible, that a straw poll would hurt the further development of the article.  Since we cannot come to an agreement on this, because this argument is so trivial (I really don't understand why you care so much), and because I'm just so tired of arguing over nothing, if you really want to delete this straw poll... go right ahead.  I just thought it would be a good idea to have one.  Just trying to help.  Ian Lee 04:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I guess because we strive for accuracy in everything on WP, including properly reporting the genre of a band  I know you are acting in good faith, and I don't pretend to fully grasp all the differences between genres.  But the bulk of the reliable sources out there, which is what we rely on, says they are pop punk  So it goes.  I thank you sincerely for your efforts to improve this article.  It makes a change from the usual teenie writing in with "Pierre is so HOTT!"--Wehwalt 11:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Um... so what happens to the staw poll?  I do see you have much senoirity over me as a Wikipedian (im kinda new, and not really a serious editer... more of a reader), so Im asking before I take any action.  Ian Lee 01:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You might want to delete it.  But it is not my place to.  It is considered rude to delete other people's contributions to talk pages.  You might want to leave some sort of a placeholder, as in {proposed straw poll deleted by creator}.  I'd leave this dialogue in.--Wehwalt 01:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Genre Straw Poll

message: I have put the genre "highly dusputed".  Please keep it that way, because it is obvious that no one can come to a consensus for how to classify the band, and frankly it does not matter. Ian Lee 04:45, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The thing is, Ian, the sources out there, which is what we rely on in WP, describe them as pop punk.  If we were to take your suggestion, people might think there was a dispute, say, whether they were classical or jazz.  It is indeed true, as your edit suggests, that they decline to be characterized.  But that doesn't bind WP. As for your inclusion of SPO as a source, I've left it out, but I don't have strong views on it.  Let me look at the articles on other bands with strong followings like SP and see how the editors handle it.  SPO is a fine site, I contribute to it myself, but let's see how it is done.--Wehwalt 14:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I put the SPO cite back in.  Other bands, such as Blink, have fan sites as external references--Wehwalt 18:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ending of the genre madness

message: Considering its roots, I have that doubt... cause they have a pseudo-punk looking... right?
well, thanks,
Greedyredbag 23:09, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pop or pop punk? 

message: Anyone opposed to putting the emo fad thats going on, with the song untitled attached to it?
Could you provide some references?  And also sign your contributions?--Gary 20:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emo fad 

message: I personally think that Simple plan are emo kids who think "Oh, school is for dumbasses who have no life!" or "Life sucks!" and i think emo kids would think "It's fun to smoke marijuana." Well, i personally think they are Emo kids, but do their kind really think that life sucks and the only way to make it the least bit good is to sniff cocaine or smoke marijuana?
Is emo music, suicide, and drug abuse a fad in 2000-present? If so, i'd rather be out than in!
:Can you point to somewhere in Simple Plan's work where they promote either suicide or drug use?--Wehwalt 07:28, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who thinks simple plan are just some emo band? 

message: Yep, i put Simple Plan into the Emo section. Genre(s) say they're Emo, and Pop Punk now all thanks to me. I always thought they were just a regular Pop Punk band, u know emulating Blink 182 or even that punk band that sings "It's all downhill from here", but then on Anzac day my friend said that they're emo because "they're too emotional", and other friend said they are emo, and I was like "they don't dress emo, they dress in punk fashion", and then he replied "they're tryhards", and I was like "yup yup" agreed. Darkroom Danny 06:39, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emo in 

message: All right finally I changed punk rock into Pop punk revival....really...it was annoying me...I think that's the name of the genre we should give to that group....It's not like old pop-punk like the Buzzcocks so it's revival...."The Pop-punk revival is a mainstream rock music movement, which was more prevelent in California during the 1990s and early 2000s" it's fine with me....and it's true...So Simple plan would be a second wave pop punk revival group from the 2000's....(my god what a name!)I didn't erase my message before this one cause I think that it explains well why we can't just put PUNK ROCK to describe what is that band (And maybe it'll show to those little kids what is good underground punk rock, Oi! and ska that stole my heart...you know punk rock is full of emotions too...i'm kidding...) And for the others, it's sure Id like to label Simple Plan just as pop-rock....but you know mainstream did that bad thing...
:Yes, I like this idea, we should do it with a lot of other bands. It's there own genre so nobody can really dispute it. Now if we can get people to leave it that way...--Terronez 01:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm OK with it.--Wehwalt 02:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pop punk revival 

message: Image:Marius Carthage.jpg|I'm a Simple
Image:Alexisonfirescenefest.jpg|I'm a Plan
People keep saying that South Park is emo. They are not emo. So please stop saying that they are. The songs may sound emo, but they are not. They write songs about what people go through every single day. "Crazy" is about what the world is like. And "Untitled" is about drink driving and what the effects are after you drink drive. You people really need to listen to what SP plays. If they were emo, how come they haven't commited suicide already?--SimplePlan4ever89 06:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: I'm a Simple Band, Am I Emo?

message: I didn't realize there was a specific page to discuss this or I would have done so before hand. These sources all use the term emo in direct reference to Simple Plan. The second site might not be instantly recognizable but it is a well known, respected British site which is widely used as a reliable source. I realize that this is not a popular viewpoint but the sources pass WP:Verifiability so I believe they merit inclusion. Aurum ore (talk) 22:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliable sources