Talk:Dessie Grew

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928014419/http://www.ivanfoster.org/page.asp?ira to http://www.ivanfoster.org/page.asp?ira
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070929005356/http://www.eveningecho.ie/news/bstory.asp?j=170431840&p=y7x43z4zx&n=170432449 to http://www.eveningecho.ie/news/bstory.asp?j=170431840&p=y7x43z4zx&n=170432449
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This information is incorrect 80.7.133.241 (talk) 13:44, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Information  & Source reference 7 

message: Without prejudice- Confidential.
Re: Dessie Grew Wikipedia page.
The reason for the deletion of this reference & source is not edit warring .
The deletion is being made as the information provided is not based on truth or fact.
The Belfast Telegraph unlike the British Telegraph is not a broadsheet newspaper.
The Belfast Telegraph writes for a  local audience in what I could reasonably described as a  ‘tabloid’ style. 
Desmond Grew was proven not to be in Germany at the time.
He was neither questioned, arrested or charged  which is legally documented.
Respect needs to be given to democracy where one is innocent until they are proved guilty.
So I ask you kindly to remove this reference as it is incorrect. 80.7.133.241 (talk) 13:48, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It can easily be replaced with others. Brits by Peter Taylor,  or Lost Lives by McKittrick et al, . FDW777 (talk) 14:44, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference 7 

message: Please impartially examine whether the further publications you now reference to support inclusion of reference 7 and associated narrative are written positions based on fact, suspicion or hearsay. I believe you will find reference 7 and associated narrative lacks factual integrity. Wikipedia needs to be  a source of factual information for obvious reasons.
Thank you. 80.7.133.241 (talk) 01:02, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: See #Reference 7 above. Your rejection of it has already been refuted, in particular your claim about . To that list you could add Kevin Toolis's book also. FDW777 (talk) 06:42, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rely reference 7 

message: Without prejudice 
I do not like to disagree but the rejection of reference 7 and the associated narrative has not been refuted as you claim. 
This reference & associated narrative in my opinion does lack factual integrity due to the origin of the original source. Reference 7 and the associated narrative has in my opinion & I believe in most right  thinking people’s opinion no legal efficacy. To use a tabloid newspaper as a source of academic fact, in my opinion & I believe in most right  thinking people’s opinion is not well advised.
To cite Kevin Toolis, the now  film maker, to further support your inclusion of said reference and associated narrative does not in my opinion & I believe in most right  thinking people’s opinion make your argument stronger. 
Please examine this author’s source of references
in relation to Desmond Grew. This addition highlights the dangers that emanate from the repetition of information that is not based on certainty or 
factuality.
Wikipedia  should not be used as a platform from which to publish unproven information.
Wikipedia is a platform for proven facts.
I am politely asking  that you examine the factual legitimacy  of the sources you have used to create reference 7 and the associated narrative.
I am respectfully asking for the final time that reference 7 and associated narrative is removed.
Thank you. 80.7.133.241 (talk) 10:49, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The answer is no. There are now four different references. That you don't like what they say is of no consequence whatsoever. FDW777 (talk) 10:54, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

text: We could also add the New York Times to the list, who say  FDW777 (talk) 14:20, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refuted??? 

message: I agree that it is irrelevant whether I like or dislike these 4 different references.
You have chosen these same 4 references to lend credibility to your Wikipedia contribution. You obviously believe they support your position.
My opinion is they are of ‘no consequence’ as credible sources of truth as they were supplied without evidence.
Proof is clearly not present in your Wikipedia contribution and this is the reason for my objection.
As for the New York Times which you directly refer to:
‘Mr. Grew was suspected of being involved….’ 
‘Suspected’ is  the key word.
The definition of suspected is: ’have an idea or impression of the existence, presence, or truth of (something) without certain proof.’
The action of publishing information on Wikipedia based on suspicion and therefore without proof does Wikipedia a great disservice.
I shall follow the relevant process to get this matter dealt with as it is obvious that mediation is needed. 2A02:C7F:219:7700:4D54:9370:C8FC:8361 (talk) 18:13, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: is a purely factual statement. Sorry you don't like facts. FDW777 (talk) 19:33, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proof is needed 

message: Ironically the  point you seem to be missing is that I very much like facts, proven facts, not ‘suspicion’  presented as facts. 80.7.133.241 (talk) 20:22, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on your comments on this talk page, it seems that you might have a conflict of interest with the article subject. Please read WP:COI. If you do have a conflict of interest, please disclose it when commenting further. Thanks. — Manticore 00:34, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  I like facts particularly important when it comes to Wikipedia contributions 

message: It's the correct term used by academics.
*Inside the IRA by Andrew Saunders (Edinburgh University Press) 
*The IRA, 1968-2000: An Analysis of a Secret Army by J. Bowyer Bell (Routledge) 
*Times of Troubles: Britain's War in Northern Ireland by Andrew Sanders (not to be confused with Andrew Saunders above) (Edinburgh University Press) 
*Walking Away from Terrorism: Accounts of Disengagement from Radical and Extremist Movements  by John Horgan (Routledge) 
*Ruairí Ó Brádaigh: The Life and Politics of an Irish Revolutionary by Robert White (Indiana University Press) 
*Provisional Irish Republican Army and the Morality of Terrorism by Timothy Shanahan (Edinburgh University Press) 
*The Provisional Irish Republican Army and the Development of Mortars by Gary Ackerman (Journal of Strategic Security) 
*Gunrunners: The Covert Arms Trail to Ireland by Sean Boyne (O'Brien Press) 
*The I.R.A. by Tim Pat Coogan (St. Martin's Griffin) 
*25 Years of Terror: The IRA's war against the British by Martin Dillon (Bantam Books) 
*Armed Struggle: The History of the IRA by Richard English (Pan Books) 
*A Secret History of the IRA by Ed Moloney (Penguin Books) 
*The Irish War: The Military History of a Domestic Conflict by Tony Geraghty (Fire and Water) 
*Playing the 'Green Card' - Financing the Provisional IRA: Part 1 by John Horgan & Max Taylor (Terrorism and Political Violence) 
*Stakeknife: Britain's Secret Agents in Ireland by Greg Harkin & Martin Ingram (O'Brien Press) 
*The Intelligence War against the IRA by Thomas Leahy (Cambridge University Press) 
*Making Sense of the Troubles: A History of the Northern Ireland Conflict by David McKittrick & David McVea (Penguin Books) 
*The Long War: The IRA and Sinn Féin by Brendan O'Brien (O'Brien Press) 
*Special Category: The IRA in English Prisons, Vol. 2: 1978-1985 by Ruán O’Donnell (Irish Academic Press) 
*A Broad Church: The Provisional IRA in the Republic of Ireland, 1969–1980 by  Gearóid Ó Faoleán (Merrion Press) 
*IRA: The Bombs and the Bullets: A History of Deadly Ingenuity by Andy Oppenheimer (Irish Academic Press) 
*Provos The IRA & Sinn Féin by Peter Taylor (Bloomsbury Publishing) 
*Out of the Ashes: An Oral History of the Provisional Irish Republican Movement by Robert White (Merrion Press) 
And so on. FDW777 (talk) 12:22, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Volunteer