Talk:Autism spectrum/Archive 5

message: * Hi folks, I started this by posting willy nilly. Now it is getting to big so I simply placed the section here since it is the first part of the article. Hope this allows folks to follow the conversation a little easier. NO TEXT HAS BEEN CHANGED. Everything your wrote is intact. Malangthon 12:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: All Remarks on Introduction are here

message: This was getting a little diffuse. I went ahead and added a definitive source. However, the list format, while certainly preferred in the real world (it was a list on the NICHD publicaton for example) is often decried on Planet Wikipedia. I have no idea why. Anyway, the publication is from a US government office and can be quoted at length in full. The source for the citation is also mentioned. I have altered the text somewhat just in case anyone has an issue with copyright. Malangthon 04:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: section on Characteristics

message: I deleted the following:
" Some believe that sensory issues can be helped nutritionally through sensory diets or sensory snacks which are typically put together by trained occupational therapists. The diet consists of items that are thought to help keep the senses in control, with the intention of helping the individual cope better with sensory-related problems."
It is 
:a. unreferenced
:b. the wrong style
:c. uses weasel words (some believe) 
:d. Outlandish claims--dietary items that help keep the senses in control? Unless you are talking about nutrition for chronically malnourished children, we are dealing with a profound organic structural variation in the human brain and the answer is special snacks? If there are real sources for this, it would be a nice addition but until then this reads like a local health store ad.
I have also been looking for any occupational therapy orgnisation (e.g. AOTA) that is saying that they can control senses in autistic children with diet(providing they are not suffering from long-term dietary imbalances). No luck. Malangthon 02:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, 
*First the writer above did not sign the entry;
*Second, yes there are people out there talking about diet and autism but they are often going overboard with it much like the diets for ADD (I have been following this stuff in the literature since the late 60s);
*Third, yes I do understand the phrases and the language in the deleted text and the referenced article is categorically obtuse and my figure of speech as well as the literal meaning makes this readily apparent if you had read the comments I made;
*Fourth, the article you want to base your efforts upon is in serious need of citations and is appropriately tagged. Malangthon 01:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subsection on "Sensory System"

message: The text refers to a source with the statement:
"The method that has been best documented to show positive results is Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA),[29] which systematically breaks down and teaches tasks. 
The citation says
"  "This study corroborates earlier studies showing the power of early intensive behavior analytic intervention," said Howard, the study's principal investigator. "It is important because it is one of only a few studies in which the ABA intervention was delivered through a community- based, rather than a university-affiliated program. These results signal the potential for delivering effective intervention without the resources of a university-based clinic."
It does not say it is the best documented. In fact it says there are few studies like it. It goes on to say:
"      "The study is also noteworthy because it is only the second one to compare the common practice of combining multiple treatment approaches ("eclectic" treatment) with a cohesive approach based on the science of applied behavior analysis,""
This needs to be deleted or rewritten since it is not accurate. Malangthon 12:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: section on "Treatment"

message: perhaps someone more qualified / knowledgeable than i could add something about the neanderthal theory of autism. as i understand, the theory supposes that autistics are *not* dysfunctional, aberrant, etc. there *is* a wikipedia page about this at User:Zenosaga/Neanderthal_theory. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.19.178.44 (talk • contribs).
:This has been brought up in the past (the author is a Wikipedia editor). The problem is that this theory is (still) in its original research stage. Wikipedia can't say anything about it unless it's been published by a reliable source - apparently it hasn't. Its scientific aspects need scholarly sources, any other aspects need to be notable per coverage in respectable general media. See WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:NOR. AvB ÷ talk 23:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there are a number of problems with this. 
*It relies on genetic analysis which has been done. That analysis shows--to date--that Neanderthals and humans are divergent species and that humans are not progeny of Neandethals (but see  "Neanderthal Genome Sequencing Yields Surprising Results And Opens A New Door To Future Studies"). 
*The description of autistic behaviour and the comparison with Neanderthal behaviour is reliant on sheer speculation (which is the beginning of much scientific endeavour to be sure but . . ) and this speculation then becomes the basis for more speculation. The Neandethals have been dead a long time ergo no living examples with which to compare archaeological and paleo-anthropological data, This means using unproven premises for yet more unproven assertions.
It is a fascinating idea. Would make a great movie. That is not a slam by the way.
There is also the idea that autistic people (specifically those with Asperger Syndrome) are and have been what would be called wizards, priests and bards in the old days. This makes me think of the theory--referenced in the Autism article-- that Henry Cavendish had Asperger's. Fascinating but in the end what we do know is limited to this--Asperger Syndrom people may be intellectually very advanced but they are not likely to want to communicate with others about their work and that means they remain hidden from observation which in turn means a dearth of information from which to derive descriptions. Given that alchemists and those labelled wizards were notorious for being socially isolated, this may be a fascinating idea but there is very little we can do with it until someone steps forward in a reputable forum to deal with it.
I have been trying to find a reputable source positing a link between autism and Neanderthals but so far no luck. Malangthon 01:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: neanderthal autism

message: I noticed that in the article there is a sporadic and dispersed treatment of much of the research into actual organic components of autism. I have attempted to divide the information into coherent sections treating definitive aspects and to update the current research perspectives that herald a paradigm shift in scientific perspectives of the malady. Malangthon 02:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: section on "Causes"

message: I removed:
By age 3, typical children have passed predictable language learning milestones; one of the earliest is babbling. By the first birthday, a typical toddler says words or turns when he or she hears his or her name, points when he or she wants a toy, and when offered something distasteful, makes it clear that the answer is "no." It should be noted, however, that late language development does occur in a minority of neurotypical children.
Speech development in people with autism takes different paths than the majority of neurotypical children. Some remain mute throughout their lives with varying degrees of literacy; communication in other ways—images, visual clues, sign language, and typing may be far more natural to them. Contrary to the prevailing traditional stereotype of mute people with Kanner-type autism, around one third of people diagnosed with this type of autism will develop what is often viewed as dysfunctional verbal language, relying on rote learned stored phrases, songs, jingles and advertisements. The earliest published autobiographical account of this is Donna Williams first book, "Nobody Nowhere", (1991). Those with the autism spectrum condition of Semantic Pragmatic Disorder fall into this group.
Those who do speak sometimes use language in unusual ways, retaining features of earlier stages of language development for long periods or throughout their lives. Some speak only single words, while others repeat a mimicked phrase over and over. Some repeat what they hear, a condition called echolalia. Sing-song repetitions in particular are a calming, joyous activity that many autistic adults engage in. Many people with autism have a strong tonal sense, and can often understand at least some spoken language whilst others can understand language fluently.
Some children may exhibit only slight delays in language, or even seem to have precocious language and unusually large vocabularies, but have great difficulty in sustaining typical conversations. The "give and take" of non-autistic conversation is hard for them, although they often carry on a monologue on a favorite subject, giving no one else an opportunity to comment. When given the chance to converse with other autistics, they comfortably do so in "parallel monologue"—taking turns expressing views and information.[citation needed] Just as "neurotypicals" (people without autism) have trouble understanding autistic body languages, vocal tones, or phraseology, people with autism similarly have trouble with such things in people without autism. In particular, autistic language abilities tend to be highly literal; people without autism often inappropriately attribute hidden meaning to what people with autism say or expect the person with autism to sense such unstated meaning in their own words.
because it appears to blatant copyvio material from this site. If anyone would care to rewrite it that would be great because this is good info and its coming from a reliable source.~ Joe Jklin (T C) 12:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of info 

message: The list in the infobox is a little garbled
*ICD-10	F84.0
*ICD-9	299.0
*OMIM	209850
*MedlinePlus	001526
The DSM-IV-TR is supposed to be the second which is listed as ICD-9. I rewrote the script but it simply voids that entry and the one below it. There is something I do not know to do or it has a glitch. Malangthon 02:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: infobox

message: The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
*Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.[?]
*See if possible if there is a free use image that can go on the top right corner of this article.[?]
*Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006.[?]
*Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.[?]
*Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long- consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per Wikipedia:Summary style.[?]
*There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
**apparently
**are considered
**might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).[?] 
*Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: behavior (A) (British: behaviour), behaviour (B) (American: behavior), recognize (A) (British: recognise), ization (A) (British: isation), isation (B) (American: ization), analyse (B) (American: analyze), pediatric (A) (British: paediatric), any more (B) (American: anymore).
*Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
**Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant -  “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
*Please provide citations for all of the s.[?]
*Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]
You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, ~ Joe Jklin (T C) 13:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peer review 

message: I noticed that we are still rated fourth from the top in quality, to wit:
*FA-Class psychology articles
*A-Class psychology articles
*GA-Class psychology articles
*B-Class psychology articles
Any idea if we can get this looked at and re-evaluated? Malangthon 13:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: B Class Rating

message: Was wondering how far we've come and what exactly must be done to raise the rating of this article. How do we request a peer review update? Malangthon 00:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: CAN WE GET AN UPDATE

message: V-Man737 deleted the comment "Her presence here on this article is essential," from my footnote link to Temple Grandin and I concede the point. However, let me make that observation here. Malangthon 03:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having read her article, I heartily agree with you that she belongs here. V-Man737 04:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: section for External Links

message: I have been working on doing a minor copyedit of the article. However, I don't want to step on any toes, so feel free to change any of my edits you feel are out of place. I haven't read all of the comments here on the talk page, so I'm trying not to make any changes in content right now.
I did add that public awareness might be one cause among many for the increase in diagnosis, however this is from my personal thinking and is not a sourced addition. It just seems obvious that as people are more aware, they bring possible cases to the attention of doctors more often. --DanielCD 02:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: My edits

message: Why do we have a photo of Hans Asperger and not Leo Kanner?  Asperger syndrome already has it's own page and his picture should be on that page.  This page, to my understanding, is about Kanner's autism, so his picture should be used, not Asperger's.  --James Duggan 20:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but Asperger's form of Autism has it's own article.  Since this article focuses on Kanner's autism, only Kanner's photo should be used.  --James Duggan 04:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't see that one excludes the other. Relevance is for this article. Imagine Issac Newton being pictured for say, his work in alchemy (which was the primary emphasis of much of his working life) and only a brief mention for Principia Mathematica, calculus etc.--he is in one so he can not be in both. Asperger is relevant here and in the related article. Malangthon 04:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I moved the picture of Asperger into the section discussing Asperger's syndrome.  Both in the history section looked too crowded, this way they are still in the article and it spreads out the pictures more (it is pretty textually dense.  WLU 12:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sound choice. Malangthon 09:59, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  photo in history 

message: Does the fact that the article continuously refers to people as "autistic" bother anyone but me? I am a special education major and the first thing we are taught is to refer to people first, and their disability second. It shouldn't be "autistic people". It should be "people with autism". This is true in all disability categories excluding deafness and sometimes blindness. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.56.99.40 (talk • contribs).
:I agree. Feel free to go through and change those if you wish. V-Man737 00:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a very controversial issue. Some people prefer "people with autism" and some prefer "autistic people". Q0 00:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I should also say that there are descriptions of this controversy in wikipedia articles Autism#Terminology and Controversies_in_autism#.27Autistic.27_vs._.27Has_autism.27 and Person-first_terminology#Criticism.Q0 00:37, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text: This is the old, 'coloured people' versus 'people of colour' argument. The first was regarded as denigratory and the second is just plain ambiguous. Use both throughout the article. If this gets PC'd to death it will take up valuable time and the issue will never be resolved. I did special education as well and I have seen this debate for maybe 4 decades--it never stops. Let's not go there. Use both. Malangthon 03:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text: People with autism, kinda like people with AIDS.  Just because you're told to say it one way doesn't mean that's the only way to say it.  The people who believe that autism is a part of who they are prefer autistic people, while others believe it is a disability that can be cured prefer people with autism, as in it's not an integral part of the person.  I'm with Malangthon on this in that since both are recognized (depending on who you talk to), both should be used.  --James Duggan 04:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text: ~points to what James Duggan said~ Yes. For the record, I am autistic, and I insist on being called an autistic person, not a person with autism. I agree with ReignMan that it should not matter as long as we are respected as people; I don't really care whether you call me an Indian or a Native American, for isntance. However, language shapes thought and right now there are an awful lot of people out there who would like to make us "persons without autism" by any means necessary. That's the politicized or power-dynamic reason for saying "autistic person". Look back a few years and you will see that there were people who honestly believed that Indians should be regarded as "persons with Indian" (they didn't say it that way), and that they could take the Indian-ness out of us in those schools. --Bluejay Young 05:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Person-first language. 

message: This page  says there are some facial features peculiar to autistic persons. I don't know if this information is true or not, but was wondering if anyone could comment on this. The features are regarding the corners of the mouth and the shape/position of the ears. --DanielCD 22:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've only ever heard of the big head thing, nothing about facial features.  WLU 00:19, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Facial features

message: I hope we can use this space to look back at the article and note the areas that need to be supported by sources.If we keep the comments in the relevant section we will not have to hunt for them and commenting will be a little more straightforward.
===Introduction===
*Paragraph 4 needs a source
:"From a physiological standpoint, autism is often less than obvious in that outward appearance may not indicate a disorder. Diagnosis typically comes from a complete physical and neurological evaluation."
*Paragraph 6 has no citation but it does refer to the section where it is sourced. I do not see this as a problem. Anyone know if this might effect the standard of the article?
All in all, this section looks well supported. Your thoughts? Malangthon 12:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Review of sources and needed citations

message: *Paragraph 4 needs a source
:"From a physiological standpoint, autism is often less than obvious in that outward appearance may not indicate a disorder. Diagnosis typically comes from a complete physical and neurological evaluation."
*Paragraph 6 has no citation but it does refer to the section where it is sourced. I do not see this as a problem. Anyone know if this might effect the standard of the article?
All in all, this section looks well supported. Your thoughts? Malangthon 12:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction

message: This section looks as if everything is supported by sources. Have I missed anything? Malangthon 12:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: I reorganised this top section by making the paragraphs more distinctive for coherence.
*Paragraph 1 has no source.
*Paragraph 2 is sourced. The opening line rambles a bit by the way. Does it read fluidly to you?
"Individuals diagnosed with autism can vary greatly in skills and behaviors, and their response to sensory input shows . . ." 
The comments on behavior is well delineated in the next paragraph, then there is nothing else said about skills and last it goes into sensory input. It just looks to me like it needs a rewrite.
====Subsection on Key Behaviours==== 
Fully resourced
Malangthon 12:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Characteristics

message: Fully resourced
Malangthon 12:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subsection on Key Behaviours

message: *Paragraph 1 has no sources
*Paragraph 2 has a source but it is hard to tell what is being supported by the source. This might need more sources or a rewrite.
*Paragraph 3 is well supported.
*Paragraph 4 seems to have the same problem as paragraph 2
*Paragraph 5 has no source cited. If it is in the text already, this should be cited again. If not, does anyone have a source for this?
Malangthon 12:36, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subsection on Social Development

message: First the title is not really working. We are looking at food obsessions in the middle of the subsection for one thing. We also see a comment on coordination. This subsection could do with a rewrite for coherence as well as cohesion
*Paragraph 1 no sources
*Paragraph 2 is supported but is this the correct place for a comment on obsessive behaviour about food? Is ther a theory that explains this obsession with regard to the senses?
*Paragraph 3 has no sources
Conclusion: This subsection need a good rewrite, it rambles and it is not well supported. Malangthon 12:44, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subsection on Sensory System

message: *Paragraph 1 is supported
*Paragraph 2 is supported
Note: Who thought up the idea of using the phrase "Developmental trajectories"? That is journal-speak to be sure. Not something most folks would understand. 
This could be merged with the subsection on the sensory system by the way.
Malangthon 12:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subsection on Autism and blindness

message: *Paragraph 1-5 No sources
Ironically, this is the most crucial issue of the entire article--the very crux of autism--and it is completely unsourced. There are sources used in other parts of this article that would serve. The Key Behaviours lists a number of these phenomena. Malangthon 12:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subsection on Communication Difficulties

message: Absolutely no sources
Malangthon 12:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subsection on Repetitive Behaviors

message: Six paragraphs and one source. 
Note: I think that this subject would be of great value to parents and educators. This section, from the perspective of it being an encyclopedia article, is of very high value. Malangthon 13:04, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subsection on Effects in Education

message: Is there any correlation between autism and atheism? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Phase Theory (talk • contribs) 18:48, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why on earth would there be? --DanielCD 20:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Heaven knows it'd be useful for a pun. V-Man737 00:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  atheism 

message: There's this article from CNN you can click this link that discusses much about this "Autism" controversy.  I'm not sure if it warrants to be mentioned on this article but I thought that you want a heads up on it. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 14:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not sure 

message: Please see Talk:Frequency of autism. aLii 01:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal to redirect "[[Frequency of autism]]" to "[[Autism (incidence)]]"

message: I believe I read somewhere that in some "primitive" societies, autistic children are worshipped as gods or consulted as oracles. I don't know exactly where I read it, and I can't find any information with a Google search. I was wondering if anybody else had heard this and could possibly find some sources. Of course, I may not remember right (I do have a bit of a bias) or the source I'm thinking of was full of it. I'd really like to see more in the history section, to tell the truth, and this seemed like a decent place to start. Aljo 00:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Rolling Stone in its landmark article "The Kids with the Faraway Eyes" (8 March 1979 by Donald Katz) mentioned that one of the families told of having visited by a Native American friend whose traditional background held that autistic kids were "inspired". It is true that many Native traditions respect mentally ill and retarded persons, but there's probably been tons of bilge written about their place in the actual society and culture. For possible autistics down through history you might look up Paul Collins' Not Even Wrong. --Bluejay Young 05:29, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worship of Autistic Children