Talk:Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution of Ireland

message: The prominant use of the term "Bunreacht na hÉireann" for "Constitution of Ireland" is somewhat excessive and unrealistic. The former term, Irish, is rarely used in any part of Ireland except as in introductory texts and sentences in history lectures on the topic. Djegan 19:56, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: "Bunreacht na hÉireann"

message: Please provide evidence to back up your assertion that the Irish government has a policy of referring to "Northern Ireland" as "the six counties". Also, the only media outlets that use the term "six counties" are minority nationalist papers such as An Phoblacht and Daily Ireland. Demiurge 14:49, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Demiurge 15:48, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Demiurge 16:52, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Demiurge 17:23, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: If people are not happy with the status-quo of Northern Ireland then you can raise a vote for moving on the article! Djegan 18:24, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Demiurge 18:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Northern Ireland, with a capital "N", can hardly be said to be pov. Djegan 19:20, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: And "six counties" isn't a POV term? Why should we replace one widely accepted and internationally/legally recognized term which is used widely by both sides  (as I've demonstrated above) with another heavily loaded term which is used almost exclusively by republicans? Just because you say the official name argument "carries little water" doesn't make it so, you're going to have to explain why we shouldn't call the place the same thing as the Irish government, the British government, the European Union, the United Nations, and even the Northern Ireland Executive (were it around) call it.Demiurge 19:41, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: "the nature of the political dispute" has nothing to do with it when the majorities on both sides agree that Northern Ireland is the correct name. Again, only a specific group of people (mostly associated with one particular political party) uses your preferred phrase of "six counties". Everyone else, nationalist and unionist, British, Irish and international, calls it Northern Ireland. Demiurge 21:58, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Agreed, quite frankly this need to change links is strange to say the least (i am trying to restrain my language here). With respect, LP, your arguement that the "official name" is pov or inappropriate does not hold much water either. You just need to accept that Northern Ireland is the official name, very widely recognised, and that many other terms cited are pov, by default. If you are still not convinced I suggest that in the first instance that you lobby the respective national and international bodies for a name change and in the second instance you submit a request for moving the article to the new name rather than painstaking transfers which will only in due course be reverted by people who care little of what has been discussed here. Djegan 22:13, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  If the SDLP think that "Northern Ireland" is the incorrect name, then they should tell their webmaster (headline at top of page) Demiurge 23:03, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Not in any of the speeches and interviews published on their website they don't: six counties: 2 results Northern Ireland 996 results. It's clear that "Northern Ireland" is a perfectly acceptable term as far as the SDLP are concerned. In any case, nice to see you're now admitting that "six counties" is confusing compared to "northern ireland". Demiurge 08:18, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: That's interesting. You've already tried it in the Royal Irish Constabulary article for a start. -- Necrothesp 14:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: He refused to use the term Northern Ireland, yet stood for and was elected to a body called the Northern Ireland Assembly. Smacks of double standards and hypocrisy to me. Anyway the point really is moot, the official name, most common name, and the used name is Northern Ireland. Ben W Bell 14:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Your recollection seems to be faulty, Seamus Mallon appears to have no problems with the term "Northern Ireland" in this speech. Demiurge 14:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Actually, that's exactly what you contended: "refused point-blank to use the term "Northern Ireland" during his tenure". In any case, he didn't prefer the term "six counties" instead, so even if Seamus Mallon had never uttered the phrase "Northern Ireland" in his life, it still wouldn't  support your unilateral decision to replace "Northern Ireland" with "six counties". You might as well point to examples of Paisley calling the place "Ulster" to support your point. Demiurge 15:42, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: But the term "six counties" has much greater problems with cross-community acceptance (and is not the official name, as is the Wikipedia convention, and you yourself have admitted that "six counties" is confusing), therefore it should not be used. I'm sure there are people here who would like to throw in references to "Ulster" but they're not going to get their way either. Demiurge 16:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: You still haven't addressed the issue that "six counties" is a much more POV term than "Northern Ireland", and it does no good whatsoever to replace one widely accepted term with one that is used by only a subset of nationalists. Your suggestion of changing other NI references to "Ulster" to somehow "balance it out" makes no difference whatsoever -- "NPOV" does not mean that Wikipedia should be be equally biased in both directions. Demiurge 18:08, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: As far as I can see using the term Six Counties is never acceptable unless you are talking specifically about a particular point of view, it simply isn't a term that is acceptably used. Many people in Northern Ireland refer to the Republic of Ireland simply as Down South or sometimes The Free State but I don't believe that these terms should be used to replace Republic of Ireland in an encyclopaedic entry. Ben W Bell 06:58, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: If you don't accept that "six counties" is POV then you're either being disingenuous, you don't understand what POV is, or you know very little about Northern Ireland. From seeing your other edits I don't think it's the latter. Demiurge 09:07, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: First you said using the term "six counties" isn't POV, now you're saying that it's no more POV than the other term that you object to. Make your mind up please. This is going nowhere, I'm reverting your changes to "Northern Ireland".   Demiurge 15:16, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Correction: most Irish nationalists (the SDLP, the Irish News, the Irish government, all political parties in the Republic bar Sinn Féin, RTÉ) are happy to use "Northern Ireland". Many of them would be unhappy with the term "six counties" as it is a phrase strongly associated with Sinn Féin (and some other fringe republican groups). Demiurge 15:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Northern Ireland is no more a geographical absurdity than is Austria being distinct from Germany. Both are fact, however much you argue. You also seem to be implying that it is undeniable that the "Six Counties" (it doesn't make it any more valid, incidentally, however much you link it) is the most accurate term. Well, since it is being denied you seem to be arguing from a rather weak position. -- Necrothesp 16:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Encyclopedias are there to present fact. The name "Northern Ireland" and its recognition around the world is a fact. Ergo, we should use it. When I mentioned Austria I was responding to your claim that Northern Ireland was a geographical absurdity. I fail to see why Northern Ireland is an absurdity in any way, either geographically (as you said) or semantically. Is it perhaps in the south of Ireland and we've all been confused for all this time? -- Necrothesp 12:46, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: To be very honest I think you are making a very big fuss about nothing. By instisting on "Six Counties" you might as well propose a title such as "That part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland on the island of Ireland consisting of 13,843 km², as founded by the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, generally known as Northern Ireland" - it really is that bizzar. Their is simply nothing inappropriate about using "Northern Ireland" with a capital N - you can spin it how you want, Irish or otherwise, this is the accepted name of a political entity on the island of Ireland - a name is a name. Djegan 18:43, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: "The region is in the northeast of Ireland". So that's not the north then? The north doesn't exist? Presumably Northern Ireland can only be an accurate term if taken as the area north of a horizontal line drawn exactly halfway down the island of Ireland? Ridiculous. -- Necrothesp 23:48, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I have already acknowledged the inherent implication in calling the region the Six Counties. My contention is that this is less POV (as well as being far more accurate) than the term "Northern Ireland", which carries its own (very strong) implication. As for using "Ulster", I've found that very often the term "Northern Ireland" is used when Ulster would be more appropriate, e.g. when discussing the Plantation of Ulster or the Orange Order. Again, using the term "Northern Ireland" just because its the "official name" should be considered against the backdrop of the political situation. Lapsed Pacifist 08:09, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes but everyone else is contending that Northern Ireland is not POV as it is simply the name of the territory in question. POV has very little to do with using the official name of something. For instance we can happily called the Republic of Ireland 'Eire' as that is it's official name and as a result does no necessarily carry a POV, though the name is not something that is commonly used. Northern Ireland is the name, that is a fact just as much as Coca Cola is called Coca Cola and not 'vegetable extract flavoured soft drink'. Ben W Bell 09:23, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Which in this case it definitely is, so why the discussion? Ben W Bell 09:48, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The article we are currently having a debate about. Ben W Bell 10:11, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Six Counties/Northern Ireland/Ulster 

message: Do you maybe have your footnotes the wrong way round?  The note next to "Saorstat Éireann" reads "i.e. the parliament of the Irish Free State (1922–1937). The Belfast Agreement does not refer to the part of Ireland that is not Northern Ireland by name", whereas the other note says "Saorstát Éireann is the Irish language translation of the Irish Free State: the name of the independent Irish state prior to 1937." I didn't change it because I'm not sure. --kingboyk 09:48, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well spotted, fixed. Djegan 11:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Footnotes 

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thread_title:  External links modified