Talk:History of the Jews in Russia/Archive 1

message: Jews do not mind being called a nationality. After the Holocaust they didnt like being called a race,but Judaism more or less defines itself as a national identity. Alexbmn
I started this article. I'm nowhere near done, however. So don't worry if it seems like just a draft.
I'd also like other user to make some contributions. Though I have some expertise regarding some aspects of Soviet Union, this is not one of them. Perhaps others would like to add chronicles of some poignant episodes, such as expounding on the Doctors Plot. I'm content to stay general, but the more information the better. 
172
I will go through this more thoroughly later today, however, there seems to be certain omissions. For 172, two books that immediately come to mind are Veidlinger's Moscow State Yiddish Theater: Jewish Culture on the Soviet Stage, which discusses the Jewish cultural Renaissance and its demise during Soviet times and Rapaport's Stalin's War Against the Jews, which discusses the purges through the Doctor's Plot (I happen to have them both on my desk at work). Attitudes toward Kaganovitch are not, however, indicative of the overall attitude toward the Jewish minority in the Soviet Union, which are more complex than as portrayed in this article. Danny
One comment I will make now is that it seems to over-emphasize the significance of Zionism in the pre-war years. Mention is also due to the Anti-Fascist League, which was prominent in the WW2 era. Danny
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I realize that the content of the article heavily focuses on Zionism; this is an important topic nonetheless since Zionism was the second major Jewish movement crushed by Soviet authorities following the breakup of the Jewish Labor Bund under the tutelage of Lenin. And remember that restrictive Soviet emigration policies, particularly with regards to its Jewish population, drew significant amounts of Western criticism during the Cold War. Remember the Jackson-Pollack legislation?  It’s also significant in light of the huge proportion of the Jewish population within the former Soviet Union that has emigrated to Israel in recent years. I do realize that this article is heavily weighted toward the pre-war years, but it is a work in progress. 
I do apologize, however, for omitting the Anti-Fascist League by mistake. I’m stunned that I left it out somehow. I believe that I did write a paragraph or two on that topic. Perhaps it got lost with all the cutting, pasting, and editing. Oh well, that’s my mistake. I’d appreciate it if you added it. Otherwise, I’ll get around to it. 
Your above comments, however, misrepresent the article's contents. The Doctor's Plot is mentioned, but it doesn’t require vast amounts of attention since it is still a matter of idle historical speculation of a crisis averted. Feel free to add content about the Doctor’s Plot, but keep that in mind. I’m familiar with Veidlinger's work as well, but also keep in mind that this is a general historical narrative and the article already deals with Jewish institutions, even ones of an artistic nature.  
172
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The article is light on concrete specifics, as it is a work in progress, but the framework for addressing what you cited as the gradual persecution of Jews under Stalin is already there. And really that what's needed for the beginning. 
For instance, at one point I believe that the article briefly states that Soviet Jews were “were the immediate benefactors of, but long-term victims of the Marxist notion that any manifestation of nationalism is "socially retrogressive", a notion threatening to Jewish cultural institutions, the Jewish Labor Bund, Jewish autonomy, and Zionism.” The article thus goes into considerable detail explaining the problems of Marxist internationalism and the national question of the Jewish people. It does make it clear that the Jewish identity is supposed to fade away according to Marx's ideal. It introduces why and when Stalin often contradicted that ideal and when he switched sides on that debate depending on other conditions; and, of course, the recognition of Israel comes to mind along with the founding to the Jewish Autonomous Soviet Socialist Oblast in Birobidzhan. It also goes over how the Soviets were able to get around their ideology (which really doesn't have a framework for dealing with Jews in a socialist society on a theoretical level) by labeling them as an ethnic group, which is deserving of autonomy according to Leninist "self-determination" so long as it has a territorial base. It mentions that upon the disillusion of the USSR that Jews were considered the 11th largest nationality. And this goes to the fundamental question of what is a Jew. 
Thus, the article is a framework for future contributions since it addresses the state's ideals and how it dealt with its Jewish population according to these ideals and how it often contradicted these ideals (often to the benefit of the Jewish identity) pragmatically due to other factors. 
I’m not sure where the leading scholars of the period and the topic might disagree with certain key aspects of the position in the article either (if it is taking any controversial position for that matter). I haven’t really taken a position on the Doctor’s Plot; I just didn’t go into great detail on it, contented to develop a general narrative that can be expounded by specifics that any contributor can feel free to add. 
I think that the brief section on Kaganovich is throwing you off, probably leading you to think that the article was suggestion that everything was great once the Bolsheviks liberated the Jews from the backward-thinking unenlightened Czarist tyrants. It was there not to suggest that the interest of Soviet Jews always coincided with the Soviet state, but just to suggest that there is a difference between the primitive anti-Semitism of the Czarist past and the caviler anti-Semitism of Marxist internationalism which suggests that the Jewish identity will fade a way once the revolution puts an end to the class struggle and rids society of primitive superstitions. So, it gets into the irony that I think you were describing earlier of an ideology that condemns prejudice against individuals of Jewish backgrounds but still manages to suggest that all would be better if the Jewish identity "withered away" through the abandonment of non-universal institutions and religion. 
Please be patient with me as well. Despite my Polish Jewish linage, contemporary Jewish history (especially literary, artistic, religious, and cultural developments) is very far from my areas of expertise, which is quite obvious considering the scope of my usual contributions. 
The article I posted is more of a framework for discussing broad sociological trends and the relationship between the Marxist-Leninist state and its Jewish population. So please, add as much as possible, especially weak areas like the ones that I’ve mentioned. 
172
I'm more than willing to give you all the time you need with it. It will be an interesting addition to the general "Nationality Question in the Soviet Union" issue. Some general points you might consider adding are the number of prominent Jews involved in early Soviet politics (Kamenev, Zinoviev, Sverdlov, Trotsky, Radek, Kaganovich, etc.), Yiddish culture (which flourished pre-WW2--Yiddish was an official language of the Belorussian SSR), and Jewish nationalist samizdatliterature (Zisselman is a good start there--I actually edited the first draft of her book). I'm off for a few days. Waiting to see where it leads. Danny
172 writes "minor NPOVing. We can't state outright that anti-Zionism is a form of anti-Semitism."
:Sorry; I should have caught that.  I do mean to say, however (in a later part of this article) that the Soviet Union used anti-Zionism as a cover for anti-Semitism.  Still, this article seems to me to be missing some important elements: the terror that the average Jew in the Soviet union had, living in a regime that would reach out and imprison them without rational reason.  This article misses all the conspiracy theory which drove many of the anti-Semitic policies. RK 02:08, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

message: Hello, 145.xxx.etc. I would have answered on your talk page, but you do not have one yet. First, welcome to Wikipedia. I hope you continue to contribute. As for your question regarding Jewish settlement in Russia, you are right in that it first occurred rather late--however, it was earlier than 1772. Some of the confusion that you rightly pointed out regards the boundaries of Russia and Poland before the partition--much of Ukraine was actually under Polish rule, the Crimea and the Caucasus were not yet under Russian rule, etc. However, I will give some early dates in Russia proper, based on two sources: 1) Dubnow, History of the Jews in Russia and Poland, Vol. 1 (JTS, 1916), and 2) Pinkus, B., The Jews of the Soviet Union (Cambridge University Press, 1990). According to Dubnow, the first substantial Jewish population in Russia came with the annexation of Little Russia in 1654. According to Pinkus, there were already Jewish merchants attached to the army of Dmitry the Pretender in 1605-1606. He adds that a Russian law passed in 1644 proscribed a death penalty for anyone attempting to convert people from the Russian faith and circumcise them--this can only be a reference to Jews. Peter the Great did allow apostasized Jews to settle in Russia and even allowed practicing Jewish bankers to settle in Moscow (Jewish cloth merchants apparently settled in Moscow illegally, so that in 1676 it was necessary to renew an order expelling them from the city. When Catherine I expelled the Jews from all Russian domains in 1727 (the problemt ostensibly began with the building of a synagogue in Zverovich, near Smolensk. The ukase began: "It has come to our attention that some Jews in our Empire, and particularly in Little Russia, continue to live there under false pretences ...), there was an outcry from nobles who required them to fill certain economic positions. There was a blood libel in Gorodnya, Little Russia, in 1702. Toward the end of his reign, Peter the Great allowed Lipmann Levy, a banker and "court Jew" to settle in St. Petersburg. According to one Russian historian (though I believe it to be an exaggerration) 35,000 Jews were expelled from Russia in 1753. I can go on, but this should serve to base my case. Danny 00:15, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Old talk

message: The following piece cut from the body:
:Anti-Semitism was probably reduced by 1930, but not wholly by ideological campaigns, such as Yevslektsia, a government entity meant to expose anti-Semitic incidents closed in 1930 by Stalin, citing reduced anti-Semitism due to Soviet policies. 
The wikipedian probably misunderstood something somehere. The (correctly named) Yevsektsiya article explains the issue more clearly. Mikkalai 01:37, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: More old talk

message: 172: Next time please watch for double redirects yourself. Mikkalai 09:48, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Double redirects

message: Why were the einsatzgruppen removed? It may have little to do with the USSR but it has a lot to do with the Jews in Russia. Andries 11:58, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed that empty section: IMHO, it belongs to the Shoah, but if you strongly think otherwise, fine with me. Arguably, more relevant to this article would be a section regarding the Jews' yesterday's neighbors and even old friends (most notably some Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Lithuanians, Latvians, etc.) who volunteered to collaborate with the Nazis in their extermination. Even after the war, the incidents analogous to the Kielce pogrom were ocurring in other places, too. We should not forget the Righteous among the nations who saved many Jews risking their own and their children's lives. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 06:41, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it does belong in the article althought may be under a different title e.g. "Jews under Nazi occupation"? The Nazis killed thousands of Jews so leaving this completely unmentioned is ridiculous. Andries 18:01, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: einsatzgruppen

message: Didn't serious [not light] persecution of Jews in Russia actually begin during the late 1800s? Marcus2 22:23, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Persecution of Jews in Russia

message: Supposedly it is a song related to emigration of Jews from the Soviet Union.  What is known about this? — Monedula 11:16, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAIK, it is a Jewish folk song. See  ←Humus sapiens←Talk 17:57, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: What is 7-40?

message: "Integration of the Jews and movement from countryside shtetls ..." Should this perhaps be "assimilation" rather than "integration"? Or do I misunderstand? -- Jmabel 08:21, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)
: Having received no response, I have made this change. -- Jmabel 02:13, 30 September 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Integration?

message: Law throughout Soviet history, however, listed Jews as one of the union's "basic nations", with their own language (Yiddish), and their own autonomous region — a failed, inhospitable settlement in Siberia that was nonetheless symbolic. The word "Yevrei" or "Jew" is also listed in the nationality section (an infamous "pyataja grafa", or "fifth record") of the obligatory internal passport document, which states the nationality of all Soviet citizens. Such treatment of the Jews as a nationality is somewhat alien to Jewish law, but reminiscent of Zionism. In May 1976, the Soviet journal Party Life prominently even displayed Jews as a distinct "nationality." However many Jews who recall the Holocaust, mistrust being classified as a "nationality" (preferring a more appropriate classification as a religion).
This is absolutely not true.  Eastern European Jews identify themselves as an ethnic group or "nationality."  Most are quite proud about their secular Jewish traditions, and the vast majority are atheists who identify with the culture of Judaism.
Being classified as a "nationality" wasn't a problem.  It was the discrimination that usually ensued when a person was identified as a Jew that was the problem. 
Kettle 15:42, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: This is inaccurate

message: # Influence of Haskalah in Russia and the consequent changes in the character of Russian Jewry?
# The government-run liberal rabbinical schools in the mid-to-late 19th century, such as the one at Zhitomir?
# Relative loosening up on several fronts (e.g. somewhat easier for Jews to get gov't jobs, somewhat better treatment in the military) during the reign of Alexander II, followed by very harsh repression right afer his assassination?
#Conversely, I believe that it is entirely wrong to say "During the reign of Alexander III the first pogroms against the Jews happened in Russia." I'm not sure when pogroms began, but Passover was a time of moderate-to-severe terror against Jews long before the reign of Alexander III. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:07, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
Or for that matter, how it is possible to have a serious article about the history of judaism during the marxist age, if you censor the marxist doctrine of judaism that explains it? It is funny and obviously self-explain by the fact that 
judaism is the only culture that has never been able to explain in a rational, scientific manner history, but only with myths and subjective opinions, which obviously perpetuates its historic cycles. This is the piece which is censored, for
the record:
The fundamental book of Marxism on Judaism is 'The Jewish question' by Karl Marx, followed by 'Judaism and capitalism', by Sombart, and the 'Jewish question' by Abraham Leon, himself a Jew, who died in a concentration camp. 
In those books the role of Judaism is essential to capitalism. Judaism is considered a Go(l)d culture whose religion was created a 'posteriori', to strengthen the role of the People-caste (Leon), as the exploiter of the Peasant class (Neolithic age, Marx),
 the organizers of slave trade (Roman, Middle ages, Leon) and exploiters of the Workers class (industrial age, Sombart). In the tradition of Moses, 'the jewish will suffer all their history for their love of gold' the Holocaust cycle is explained
 as the action-reaction process of those exploited by Jewish Capital, who murder their exploiters. The self-fullfilling prophecy of marxism took place both in Germany where Hitler ended his speeches saying 'the death of the Jewish will be the wealth of the Germans',
 and the same Russia, where pogroms extended during the civil war and revolution age. While there was a brief moment of brotherhood, in the belief that Judaism was a capitalist culture not a racial trait and hence Jewish could be converted,
 the demise of Trostky, returned to an officious age of antisemitism.
Those concepts, though historically correct, are today considered by the natural control of information that capital exercizes over historic truths, 'antisemitic' statements, which are relegated to the free-press of the blogosphere. 
Certainly not the wikipedia... And yet history can't be denied as it will always follow its own systemic truths... That is the 'jewish paradox', by censoring systematically the 'worldy culture of Judaism (which is ) Gold' Marx, the Jewish question,
the classist traits of judaism (Leon), which consists in not-contact with gentiles, as a way to control them through salaries and money (Sombart), will be enacted, and the periodic anger of the poor, will end up in revolutions and holocausts.
If judaism were able to have an objective analysis of history with its good and bad sides, its peculiar way of exploiting the poor (war against palestines instead of investment on them, for example), will end and reconciled with mankind they
will end also the holocaust cycle. The present actions in gaza, the way in which russians took over them after Yukov's affair, etc. shows that regardless of censorship, the cycles of history will be played again: go(l)d explotaition and murder=holocaust.
Shalom  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.177.67.45 (talk) 17:02, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Any reason there is no discussion of...

message: according to , the 1989 census gives 537,000 Jews, not 1.45 million as shown in our table. I don't know if the difference is due to Russia vs. Soviet Union, this would mean that close to one million live in non-Russian Soviet territories. If this is the case, more than half the decrease since 1970 will be due to a changed population base and not to emigration or assimilation. As always, it is of course difficult to identify Jews qua ethnicity (as opposed to religion), and the census probably reflects self-identification; The 2002 census gives 230,000 Jews, and  this is for Russia only, but it may exclude minor groups like the Tats classified as separate ethnicities; these will not amount to more than a couple of thousands however. The vast majority of these 230,000 will be native speaker of a Russian indistinguishable from any other Russian speaker, so unlike most other ethnicities listed in the census, it is not a linguistically defined one, and therefore much more open to interpretation. Baad 09:26, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: censuses

message: Quite unexpectedly I found myself reworking the article. I think we should stick with mostly chronological sections, otherwise they step on each other's toes. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 03:26, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Forgot to say it before, but super job on the reorg, Humus.  I took a crack at it awhile ago and gave up, but your take was really great. --Goodoldpolonius2 15:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Glad you liked it! BTW, I'm planning to unindent the assimilation trends section: it should start much earlier; the problem significantly grew in the 19th century. Perhaps this issue deserves a separate article altogether. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reorg

message: The article writes, "The official Soviet policy regarding the Holocaust was to present it as atrocites against Soviet citizens, not acknowledging the genocide of the Jews." This claim is somewhat of an over-simplification, underestimating the often-conflicing nature of Soviet statements on the subject, depending on under the direction of the influence of which state ministry, such as Propaganda, Foreign Affairs, or Education, or which party organ, they were issued. Moreover, there's greater variation depending on changing political realities over time. For example, during the brief period of warm relations between the Soviet Union and Israel, the Soviets made reference to the genocide agaisnt the Jews. Gromyko stated during the UN debate, "The Jewish people had been closely linked with Palestine for a considerable period in history.... As a result of war, the Jews as a people have suffered more than any other people. The total number of the Jewish population who perished at the hands of the Nazi executioners is estimated at approximately six million. The Jewish people were therefore striving to create a state of their own, and it would be unjust to deny them that right." 172 | Talk 03:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct to note that policies did vary with time. The direction of the "party line" throughout the periods of reigning of Stalin-Khrushchev-Brezhnev was far from straight. The source also had effect, but much less - the regime in the USSR was centralized and authoritarian. In this case, perhaps we should say typically or something to that effect. The policy in question was indeed typical and I can bring more examples if necessary. Gromyko's UN speech belongs in the relevant section and we do cite it. Note that it was intended exclusively for the audience beyond the Iron Curtain. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 06:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call. In this case, as you say, typically or something to that effect works. Another exception to the generality is that various Soviet academic circles were aware of the genocide against the Jews, though their ability to frame the public discussion of the subject was very limited. 172 | Talk 06:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is impossible to hide such losses. AFAIK, almost everyone knew, first through experience or stories and then via samizdat. It became one of politically incorrect topics. Maybe the fact that both Khrushchev and Brezhnev came from Ukraine also played a role. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:49, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Soviet reaction to the Holocaust

message: What is with these phrases like "merchants of Jewish background" and, even more oddly "of Christian background"? Were these not "Jewish merchants" and "Christian merchants"? (Several similar turns of phrase.) -- Jmabel | Talk 00:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Badly placed PC effort, I assume.  I will fix, as it reads awkwardly. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:50, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "Background"

message: I don't see how expulsion from England, the Mongol invasion or the founding of Moscow are relevant to the topic. The following paragraphs probably belong to Anti-Semitism or History of anti-Semitism or some such. 
In Western Europe and England near the end of the 13th century, the governing elite singled out Jews for special oppression.  Christian mechants wished to obtain for themselves the profits from trade that Jewish merchants had secured prior to the 12th century.  Jews in Western Europe and England were thus pushed-out of their merchant-trader roles and tracked into the economic role of moneylenders to feudal nobles and kings or to peasants and artisans.  When the feudal nobles, after being unable to pay back their high-interest loans, subsequently lost their estates to the Jewish bankers who had lent them money, an economic motive would develop for them to massacre, expel or confiscate the property of the Jews.
In 1290, for instance, the 3,000 Jews living in England were expelled from that country and their property was confiscated.  Sixteen years later, the 100,000 Jews of France were expelled, in 1306.  Two years after the bubonic plague spread in 1347 through Western Europe, eliminating one-third of its population, persecution of the Jews in Germany also intensified.  Between the end of the 14th century and the beginning of the 16th century, most German towns that were commercial centers forced Jews to leave for either the small village domains of German feudal lords or for Eastern Europe: Jews were expelled from Cologne in 1424, expelled from Strasbourg in 1438, expelled from Augsburg in 1439, expelled from Erfat in 1458, expelled from Nuremberg in 1498, and expelled from Ulm in 1499.
←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:51, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just chiming in to concur :) Ahasuerus 15:38, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Irrelevant info

message: ... in the References section should also give English-language transliterations of authors' names and translations of titles. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. I'll work on this. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:01, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Russian-language works...

message: I disagree with several recent anonymous edits to the section Jews and Bolshevism. They fall around the intersection of nationality, ethnicity, and religion, always tricky territory where the vocabulary can become confusing, but in these case I think the older wordings were better. I figured I'd try to start a discussion rather than merely revert, though if I don't get a response within 24 hours, I will simply revert.
"Many members of the Bolshevik party were ethnically Jewish" became "Many members of the Bolshevik party were formerly Jewish." I believe "ethnically Jewish" is correct. Although I realize that Jewishness is not, in the narrow sense an ethnicity, this is the normal way to refer to people who are Jews but do not practice Judaism. Note that under Jewish law, an apostate is still a Jew: the only way someone ceases to be a Jew is through cherem (the Jewish form of excommunication). To the best of my knowledge, none of the Jewish Bolsheviks were ever excommunicated, at least not by any mainstream community of Jews; cherem is a very rare matter in modern times. Hence, while "ethnically Jewish" is slightly problematic, "formerly Jewish" is quite wrong if "Jewish" here refers to the Jewish people, and at least equally as problematic as "ethnically Jewish" if it refers to Judaism, the Jewish religion: it would imply that each of these people was, as an individual, formerly a practicing Jew; I believe quite a few were not (Leon Trotsky being an obvious example). 
Similarly "Even today, many anti-Semites continue to promote the idea of a link between Judaism and Communism. However, the concept that an entire ethnic group can be held responsible for the actions of a few is very widely rejected" became "Even today, many anti-Semites continue to promote the idea of a link between Judaism and Communism. However, the concept that an entire religious community can be held responsible for the actions of a few is very widely rejected" (emphasis mine). But contemporary anti-Semitism is not generally aimed primarily at Jews as a "religious community" but as a ethnic group. The Nazis killed secular Jews (and even Jewish converts to Christianity) just as readily as they killed practicing Jews.
Finally, "Jews were a plurality ethnicity in the Communist Central Committee, which had a non-Russian majority" became "Jews were a plurality ethnicity in the Communist Central Committee, which had a non-Christian majority." As far as I know, there were no practicing Christians on the Communist Central Committee, and I would be truly astounded to discover otherwise, so if that is the sense of Christian here the "non-Christian majority" is an irrelevancy. If Christian here refers to ancestry, then the statement is false: one would have had to combine the Jews with Latvians, Poles, and perhaps others of Christian ancestry to get a majority of the committee. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with each of your sentiments but am not quite sure what a "non-Russian majority" means in this context... I strongly support the reversion of these edits for the reasons stated. jnothman talk 08:48, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * We can word that more clearly; the issue is, again, ethnicity. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  I also agree. Good catch. ←Humus sapiens ну? 09:55, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the apparent consensus here, I will edit. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Late to the table, but agree as well. Jayjg (talk) 18:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jews and Bolshevism

message: The article doesn't discuss Jewish religious life in the SU. Isn't it the right place?
Xx236 17:37, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In addition to this article, there is Religion in the Soviet Union and Soviet Union#Religious groups. Check out :Category:Status of religious freedom by country, perhaps you want to write Status of religious freedom in the Soviet Union, Status of religious freedom in the Russian Federation, etc. ←Humus sapiens ну? 22:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Religious life

message: This sequence of three sentences is so all-over-the-map is to reduce itself to mush:'
The typical Soviet policy regarding the Holocaust was to present it as atrocities against Soviet citizens. Given that the first victims of Auschwitz were Soviet prisoners of war, there is some legitimacy to this position. However, official Soviet texts usually did acknowledge the specific genocidal targeting of the Jews.
* "there is some legitimacy" is POV.
* the first and third sentences say almost opposite things. The text that follows and the one citation provided bears out the first sentence; the verbal transition to that passage suggests that it is intended to bear out the third.
-- Jmabel | Talk 02:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mush

message: ... is it really appropriate that we only mention Solomon Mikhoels and the Moscow State Jewish Theater in the context of their post-WWII suppression, and not in terms of the thriving secular Jewish culture in Moscow and elsewere in the first decades after the Revolution? - Jmabel | Talk 02:48, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Conversely...

message: In the section on Alexander "were not permitted to speak their native tongue of Hebrew": I doubt there were any significant number of people in the world at the time who had Hebrew as a native tongue. This was an addition with a citation; would you please re-check your source? I'd be really interested in knowing precisely what it said. Since Hebrew was, at that time, primarily a liturgical language, does this mean that Hebrew prayers were illegal? Or perhaps it means to say "were not permitted to speak their native tongue of Yiddish"? That seems more likely. Even in that case, though, one must ask: not permitted in what realms of life? I seriously doubt that it was illegal to carry on a conversation in Yiddish at home; I'm sure it was impossible to testify in court or petition over grievances in Yiddish; but where in between did the line fall? Since Yiddish theater had its first great heyday in Russia late in Alexander's term, there could not have been all that much of a prohibition. Or, if it was Hebrew, how did the government-sponsored rabbinical school at Zhytomyr function? - Jmabel | Talk 23:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The questionable statement has now been removed. Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 17:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Native Hebrew?

message: This edit changes Jews from a plurality to a majority of the Revolutionary-era Communist Central Committee. I'd like to see a citation for that. - Jmabel | Talk 20:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Plurality of majority of CCC?

message: This is a fundamentally Antisemitic observation in this context as say that "Many negros commit crimes." I am utterly shocked that our editors fail to see this.
:How much is little - one? Is rwo Jews too many? It does not matter that a book is cited. Any book which says such a thing is fundamentally racist. One can give a number, 10, 100, 1,000, 10,OOO, etc.
:But the subtext says "TOO MANY JEWS WERE BOLSHEVIKS"! --Ludvikus 02:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It just states a fact. The number of those of Jewish descent was disproportionately large (the Jews accounted for a much smaller percentage in the total population of Russia/USSR). The causes for this may be complex and there's no subtext to it. The myth of "Jewish Bolshevism" has its own article. Daizus 11:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact it doesn't state any fact. The number of Jews in the Bolshevik movement wasn't disproportionate at all. You confuse this with their number among the leaders of the movement. --SimulacrumDP 15:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Most materials I've read addressing this issue, claim a large number of Jews joined the Bolshevik movement (and other movements of the era). The causes are complex, some are already given in the article. You may disagree with me, but please refrain from giving verdicts on my state of mind. Daizus 16:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Many Jews were Bolsheviks"

message: After review of this article, I feel that it meets and exceeds the GA standards. Consequently this article is passed and added to the list of Good articles. As I was reading this article I was struck by the amount of information contained herein clearly elaborated on. There are several photographs and a table showing related articles. The prose is clear. I feel  that this article needs more cites, though to make through to FA.  Dagomar 21:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Review

message: As the title of this articke now stands it appears to be original research. How about a follow up: History of the Jews in New York City and the United States. --Ludvikus 13:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: History of the Chinese in the Colonies and the United States

message: The above obviously is the main article. --Ludvikus 13:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Jewish history]]

message: Beware of this antisemitic entrapment. Most often the word "many" (as well as "few," etc.) is a POV work. It is to be avoided if possible unless a relevant source is quoted, or it otherwise cannot be replaced. A possible alternative is the following:
     "A notable number of Jews ...".
The advantage of that is that it avoids the (often) subjective, or otherwise disputable, alternatives many/few. --Ludvikus 23:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Many Jews were/did ..."

message: thumb|left|50px|Purported copy of the birth certificate of Michael Lucas (director)Pages from a purported copy of the birth certificate (Russian: свидетельство о рождении, lit.,Certification of Birth ) of Michael Lucas (Andrei Treivas, or Treyvas), showing information about his birth. It lists his mother's surname as "Treivas" (or "Treyvas") and his father's surname as "Bregman." Under Russian Soviet law, a child automatically inherited his father's surname so long as the father is known and married to the birth mother at the time of birth. This document proves conclusively that Michael Lucas' parents were not married as of the date of his birth.--72.76.86.219 (talk) 22:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image content clarification

message: I asked for a reassessment about the Good article status. See top of talk page Mariah-Yulia (talk) 02:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: One problem is the sections on modern Ukraine and Belarus themselves, which belong in the History of the Jews in Ukraine and the History of the Jews in Belarus respectively.  It makes no sense to have Ukraine as a subsection of "Jews in Russia today".  The information is not about Ukraine as part of the Soviet Union, rather modern Ukraine.  That is exactly what the History of the Jews in Ukraine is for.  I have proposed the merger, and there is very little content (2-3 sentences) in either of those sections so I expect there to be no objections... Ostap 05:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't even know that History of the Jews in Ukraine and History of the Jews in Belarus existed since the see also section didn't list them (I have done that now). I stil don't understand why this article deserves good-article status since it clearly has failed to live up to it's scope (a rename would fix this, see below) Mariah-Yulia (talk) 00:13, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Good article reassessment

message: The image :Image:Vilna Gaon portrait.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --06:00, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Vilna Gaon portrait.gif

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_history_%28Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union%29#The_Holocaust
"Over 200,000 Jews died in battle fighting in the Red Army against the Nazis."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Soviet_Jews_participation_in_WW2.png
"1946. The official response to an inquiry by JAC about the participation of the Jewish soldiers in the war (1.8% of the total number). Some antisemites attempted to accuse Jews of the lack of patriotism and of hiding from the military service"
Total number of jews fighting for Red army according to the official story document: 123.822
How come over 200.000 jews died fighting for the red army if only 123.822 even participated?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.232.67.249 (talk) 22:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Inflated numbers.--Lvivske (talk) 22:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Untrue. The official response to an inquiry by JAC doc. gives not the number of participants, but the number of those recommended for decoration.Galassi (talk) 23:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Death-toll of Jewish Soldiers

message: I have added a data from the russian census (2002) into the demographic data table and made some references and remarks concerning data from the entire FSU and Russian Federation only.
I believe the Russian Jewish Diaspora section has to be corrected. For example, the data in the Israel table consists of the population from the entire FSU and not Russia only. Therefore, I suggest to rename it to "Russian-speaking Jewish Diaspora".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kostja1975 (talk • contribs) 09:48, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Corrections in the tables

message: I have tried to validate the text "Out of an estimated 887 mass pogroms in Ukraine during 1917-1918, about 40% were perpetrated by the Ukrainian forces led by Symon Petliura, 25% by the Green Army and various nationalist/anarchist groups, 17% by the White Army (especially by the forces of Anton Denikin), and 8.5% by the Red Army". It was referenced to Solzhenitsyn's 200 let together. I have looked through the 16th chapter of the book  "During the Civil War" and made a google search through the whole text on the number 887 but have found nothing. A similar info is given on a Grani.ru page  so I have referenced it to Grani.ru (I hope they have not taken it from wiki). The disputed text said "307 (25 %) банды атаманов Григорьева, Махно, Зеленого и других": 25% are bands of Grigoriev, Makhno, Zeleny and others. I think the correct reference to those group is "various warlords". Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:33, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: 887 Pogroms in Ukraine

message: Hello! For any editors who are willing, the article "Racism in Russia" could use some expansion on the "antisemitism" section within that article. Thank you for any help you can offer! --Tea with toast (talk)
I notice there are no women amongst the twelve representative Jewish figures at the top of the page. Could this be rectified?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.90.6 (talk) 13:55, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help expand [[Racism in Russia]] 

message: Image showing Trotsky, Sverdlov and Zinoviev is good illustration for "Jews in the revolutionary movement" section. If there are too many images in the article, then American New Year card (trivial image), or photo of Sergey Brin (left USSR at the age of six, more American Jew then Russian) should be removed. --DonaldDuck (talk) 06:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a picture with a whole bunch of small faces, many not Jewish. A picture of Trotsky (by far the best known) would be better. The postcard is actually of more value, in terms of the social history of the vast majority of Russian Jews, and Brin is one of the most famous (and successful) Russian Jews alive today. Jayjg (talk) 06:52, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, for encyclopedia, documentary photograph that depict real event have more value, compared to postcard with artwork. Brin is famous, but this article is about Jews in Russia, not American Jews. --DonaldDuck (talk) 07:06, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not have strong opinions about keeping or removing images of any people here. As about image in question, it tells "2nd Congress of Soviets", not "Jews at 2nd Congress of Soviets". Hence I tend to agree with Jayig that image is not really relevant. Biophys (talk) 12:53, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

text: I agree that Brin's picture could be removed, but even then, there are still to many images here, and as Biophys points out, the image isn't an appropriate one. And social histories are not just about pictures of people; other images are at least equally (and typically more) valuable. A face is just a face, two eyes, two ears, a nose and a mouth - not much can be learned about the History of the Jews in Russia from that. Jayjg (talk) 18:53, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Image of table (:File:Soviet Jews participation in WW2.png) may be removed. Relevant figure from this table (1,8% of military decorations were awarded to Jewish soldiers) may be added to article text. --DonaldDuck (talk) 02:58, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The table gives a huge amount of information about lots of Russian Jews. The image shows a few tiny faces of a mix of Jews and non-Jews. Jayjg (talk) 23:31, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: Not every sourced quotation belongs to the article. Therefore, I deleted 
this quotation as something that belongs to Stalinist propaganda from 1930s with its typical wording ("cannibalism", etc.). The statement obviously contradicts a lot of factual information, such as the well-known antisemitic campaigns organized by Stalin (rootless cosmopolitans, Doctors' plot, etc.) Let's focus on factual information. Biophys (talk) 19:48, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: During Stalin's rule most former members of tsarist-era anti-Semitic organizations were shot. Possession of anti-Semitic literature was considered serious crime. This was not just some empty rhetoric, Stalin's quotation is important.  --DonaldDuck (talk) 02:42, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  @DonaldDuck, a bit late to this, how do we reconcile this to Stalin himself being an anti-Semite (per Khrushchev)? PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:05, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotation

message: Sergei Eisenstein was not Jewish, he is a person with Jewish heritage including his picture with such Jews as Shalom Aleichem is misleading and inappropriate on an article about soviet Jewry.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.132.139 (talk) 07:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eisenstein not Jewish!  

message: I've done some minor copy-edits today after additions by User:67.10.43.83. I decided to remove the following phrase: Russian Jews are also present in the Russian mafia, although their numbers in the organization are difficult to come by. - Jews are not angels, so isn't it expected? Unless we have some numbers, this seems meaningless. ←Humus sapiens ну? 04:40, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Abramovich and Berezovsky, say, are Jews. Something like 75% of post-Soviet oligarchs are Jews. Since oligarchy roughly equals to mafia... A coincidence? 77.40.81.96 (talk) 09:41, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Russian mafia

message: The section about today's Russia presents only rare antistimetic cases without showing the whole picture and ignoring pro-semitic cases. For example, most antisemitic books are actually banned under anti-hatred penal code. For example, the article says that Mein Kampf was translated into Russian in 2002, but doesn't say that it was actually banned exactly the same year (July 25, 2002). Not to mentation that all "nazi groups" are very marginal and hardly anyone sane takes them seriously.
I understand that American Jews that edit this article "butthurt" about Russia, but it doesn't mean you necessary have to distort the reality. 77.40.81.96 (talk) 09:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Biasedness

message: On the photo of Soviet birth certificate («Свидетельство о рождении») written not ethnicity of a child but ethnisity of his father («еврей») and of his mother («еврейка»).
Also I just look in my internal passport and see no ethnisity.
From RussiaMysterybeing (talk) 16:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  about birth certificate 

message: Of the 3 million left in occupied areas, the vast majority is thought to have perished in German concentration camps.
 
The Holocaust
: Holocaust in Russia and The Holocaust
 
Over two million Soviet Jews are believed to have died during the Holocaust, second only to the number of Polish Jews to have fallen victims to Hitler.
--
You have posted first that the 'vast majority is thought' to have died; then in the next section it says 'over two million are believed.." this is pretty vague language. Between two million and three million means one million people ... Shouldn't this be clarified? Valleyspring (talk) 07:50, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Numbers of those killed during the Holocaust

message: We do not have a definition of what "enlarged Jewish population" means.Patapsco913 (talk) 13:00, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: . 176.26.247.147 (talk) 20:40, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Enlarged Jewish population

message: I did some work on the collage. I added Anton Rubinstein (it doesnt matter his family converted, many did it because there was no other choice and ethnically he's still a Jew) and replaced Kasparov with Botvinnik (Kasparov is half ethnically Jewish but we don't know what he thinks of his identity). Also, It had 3 rows of 3 people and one row of 2 people, instead I made it 3 rows of 4 people and I think it looks better now. That's what we have now:
Sholom Aleichem • Isaac Levitan • Leon Bakst • Sergey Brin</br>
Golda Meir • Marc Chagall • Osip Mandelstam • Mikhail Botvinnik</br>
Abraham Goldfaden • Lev Landau • Isaac Asimov • Anton Rubinstein
Though the majority of American Jews have ancestors in the Russian Empire, I sticked to those who were actually born in the Russian Empire/Soviet Union.
I read the discussion on top and it was suggested to add Trotsky and few more people. I don't fine it a bad idea, but wouldn't some people find it controversial? And if we do add it, how? Should we add a new row of 4 and add 4 new people or just add one person to each of the existing rows so we will have 3 rows of 5 people? Waiting for comments! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 10:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed some of the images so they would be close to the same size! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 16:36, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

text: This page has a really nice selection. I suggested one on British Jews which looks like it!!! 176.27.7.64 (talk) 15:28, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Work on the collage 

message: The caption claims that the pose has a "stereotype Jewish appearance." Can someone please clarify? The star on the chain is a 5 pointed star, what makes this pose a Jewish stereotype? And is there a source to back up this claim? USchick (talk) 17:33, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The star is suppose to be the star of David, even though it's five pointed as you said. But then again, he only has four toes. So do want an explanation for why he's missing a toe? The description should be changed to: "White movement propaganda poster from the Russian Civil War era (1919), depicting a caricature of Leon Trotsky as a red devil with  Chinese soldiers below, wearing braids and blue and gold uniforms."
Like you said, there's no visible Jewish stereotype here; just a caricature. Khazar (talk) 00:52, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

text: Thanks. USchick (talk) 02:31, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

text: In my opinion, they "highlighted" his "Jewish looks" very obviously, and as an artist, I do see the conscious decision to make a dig against the Jews in the poster. When someone tells a story (talk) 09:41, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a reliable source to support this assessment? USchick (talk) 15:41, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here are some sources: Niall Ferguson: The War of the World: History's Age of Hatred, Fig.11, Constance Harris: The Way Jews Lived: Five Hundred Years of Printed Words and Images, p. 376. --Off-shell (talk) 20:25, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poster discussion 

message: Just a heads-up that IP 184.101.78.153 is trying to add into History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia#Jews_in_the_revolutionary_movement some of the material deleted as part of Jews and Communism (diff).
See also 
*Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jews and Communism (2nd nomination)
*Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/Jews_and_Communism_(2nd_nomination)
et al
Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 11:22, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Material from deleted article [[Jews and Communism]] 

message: I made a new and improved collage for the article. The main reason was because of my boldness to do so. If you don't like the collage, feel free to alter the size, change the personnel, and/or purge. But if you do so, please state your reasons here and I'll be happy to co-operate. Khazar (talk) 22:41, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your effort. Is there a shortage of actual Russian people who are Jewish? It's not clear why Americans of Russian descent are included. Also not clear why non Jewish people of Jewish lineage, generations back are included (like Lenin). It would be more accurate and respectful to include people who are actually Russian and Jewish (as opposed to their family members who used to be Russian or Jewish). I propose that the list should include: Mila Kunis, a Russian oligarch, a historical figure like Baal Shem Tov, a Russian politician (who is not an oligarch) :Category:Jewish Russian politicians, a scientist Russian Jewish Scientists, an artist/entertainer, an athlete, a human rights activist like Andrei Sakharov (or maybe there's a better one), and an Orthodox Jew :Category:Russian Orthodox Jews. USchick (talk) 15:22, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the inquiry. The reason I added Americans was because many are second and third generation immigrants. However, since this is about the history of Russian Jews, then the collage should be restricted to those born in Russia. If you feel the need to add anything, be sure to replace rather than add because >15 people is too many when using collage frames this size. Khazar (talk) 18:27, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

text: Totally agree that people who were not born in Russia/Russian empire should not be included! Mila Kunis is not from Russia but from Ukraine. If she would be born in the Russian Empire I would support it, but she wasn't, it was the Ukrainian SSR. Baal Shem Tov would be a great addition, but the problem is we don't have an original portrait of him (the one used is more likely to be of someone from England). Andrei Sakharov is not Jewish. 2.124.27.175 (talk) 00:52, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

text: Our choices don't oppose one another. Just you know, I didn't actually add all those people to the article. The odd ones were added by another user and I recommend that you at least readopt the style of collage. See Ashkenazi Jews to get an idea of what it's like. Khazar (talk) 03:00, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

text: Ida Rubinstein is just as Ukrainian as Mila Kunis. The introduction to this article talks about the Russian Empire, not the Russian Federation. USchick (talk) 18:16, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Ida Rubinstein was born in  the Russian Empire, Mila Kunis was born in the Ukrainian SSR, that is the difference. The Russian Empire was Russia, but the Ukrainian SSR wasn't. 2.124.27.175 (talk) 00:54, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

text:  Mila Kunis is from Chernivtsi, which is today culturally Ukraine (and historicaly Romania). We already used her in the infobox for the History of the Jews in Ukraine.  Ida Rubinstein was from Saint Petersburg or Kharkov, and certainly grew up in Saint Petersburg and was based in the city. Avaya1 (talk) 18:46, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

text: Removing Isaac Asimov is a bit uncalled for considering that he was born in Russia, just like Sergei Brin. The latter also happens to remain in the collage. They should both be included in the collage. Khazar (talk) 18:22, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Asimov left when he was 3 years old, so he is surely not a strong reflection of the subject of the article, which is the History of the Jews in Russia. He is suitable in the article - the History of the Jews in America. He was American through and through. Also to be a 'Russian Jew' in a cultural sense, at a minimum requires knowledge of the Russian-language. Avaya1 (talk) 18:42, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever. Could you change the photo for Grigori Perelman? The landscape image is quite the eyesore. Khazar (talk) 22:42, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

text: Even though I agree this article should not have American-born people in the collage, I do think people who were born in Russia belong here, regardless of the age they moved to America, because they are still Russian Jews in a way, Russian born anyway. 2.124.27.175 (talk) 00:48, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The new collage