Talk:Owen Tudor

message: There is no such thing as "Owen Tudor"! His name was Owen ap Tudor, ie Owen son of Tudor. The Wealsh didn't adopt last names until Henry VIII forced them to. DelftUser 14:29, 2005 July 14 (UTC)
:Maybe we should change it then? Do you have a citation, I wouldn't want to change it if it was wrong, though I do agree with you. Souldn't it be Owain ap Tudor.
I did look into it further and found that he was known as Owen Tudor from 1500 onward, thus I think it should stay with a paragraph explaining that this name is historical and not actual. --DelftUser 14:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The book: The Wars of the Roses: And the Lives of Five Men and Women in the Fifteenth Century by Desmond Seward lists him, in the family trees, as: Owen ap Maredudd ap Tudur (Owen Tudor). I now that the Welsh had to use family names in the reign of Henry VIII (they were forced!), maybe from that time he became known as Owen Tudor, but I don't really know. You seem to know much more than me on this subject, but my opinion is to keep the page name as it is. --DelftUser 20:20, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think understand what you are saying, but I am wondering if a Welsh nobleman who was married to/living with the Dowager Queen, and who had dynastic aspirations in the English court, might have found it to his advantage to anglicise his name by both changing the spelling (and probably pronunciation) and giving himself an English style surname. No coersion would be necessary for someone in Owain/Owen's position. The different names for him in your source might just be due to the differences between Welsh and English sources. I have no evidence for this, but it could explain why he might have been happy to change his name.Alun 08:06, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know how reliable this source is, but at least it's a citation!!
 One more thing; our Owain ap Maredudd ap Tudur decided to adopt an 
 English style surname. The obvious choice would have been for 
 him to have anglicised his patronymic and become 'Owain Maredudd' 
 or 'Meredith', as indeed did many subsequent 'ap Maredudds'. But 
 for reasons only known to himself, Owain rejected this option and 
 selected his grandfather's name 'Tudur' and therefore became 'Owen 
 Tudor'.
Alun 09:56, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: The structure of the names at the time was 'given-name' son of 'father's name'. The given name was given with a purpose, it wasn't just a bunch of sounds. In other words, it had a meaning. Does any Welsh speaking person know what Tudur means?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.102.250.181 (talk) 03:04, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology

message: This article has no citations or bibliography. Can we have some please?Alun 15:45, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: No citations or Bibliography

message: Another thing, what's with the verch stuff? My Welsh may be rusty as it's 20 years since I left school (Ysgol Gyfun Llanhari, Morgannwg Ganol), but it is surely ferch. Actually merch mutated to ferch. If you are going to start using non-standard Welsh spellings then surely Ednyfed Fychan should become Ednyved Vychan, which just looks silly (as does verch to a Welsh speaker).Alun 06:00, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Standard Welsh spelling please

message: While no documentation of Owen and Catherine's marriage survives, nobody at the time, even people hostile to them, disputed that they were married. Surely we can thus take it as read that they were? Jess Cully 14:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marriage 

message: The article states he was born around 1385, yet he is in the 1400 births category. Does anyone know his actual year of birth?
: The above is undated. As of 1/19/19, the first line of the article states 1400 and the infobox says 1392. Let's at least get consistency WITHIN the article.Toyokuni3 (talk) 21:34, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , thanks for bringing this up. Not having time for real research, I did some poking around Google Scholar and Books and came up with nothing other than circa 1400 for his birth, so I nixed the unreferenced 1392 for now. Eric talk 03:21, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am certainly no medievalist, and couldn't in all honesty tell you what brought me to this page. It just bothers me to see things like this that give ammunition to Wikipedia's critics.
I do , however, have one book on my shelf on British history, Norman Davies' (good Welsh name, that) 1999 work, 'The Isles'. It also gives only ca. 1400.Toyokuni3 (talk) 19:15, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Year of birth

message: It is mentioned that Queen Elizabeth II is a descendant of Owen Tudor. I thought the house of Tudor ended with Queen Elizabeth I? And the current Queen is of the House of Windsor, previously the house of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha - a German house. Can anyone enlighten me on this issue?218.103.142.53 (talk) 20:47, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Descendants

message: On the Owen Tudor page it mentions John Beaufort as the man Catherine was planning to marry:
"Queen Catherine, upon being denied permission by her son's regents to wed John Beaufort, Duke of Somerset, allegedly said upon leaving court, "I shall marry a man so basely, yet gently born, that my lord regents may not object.""
On the Catherine of Valois page it says it was Edmund Beaufort:
"Catherine was still young and might wish to remarry which concerned the Protector, the king's uncle, Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester. Rumours abounded that Catherine planned to marry Edmund Beaufort, Count of Mortain, her late husband's cousin."
Did she intend to marry both of them? That seems unlikely.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.105.23 (talk) 21:41, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistent with the Catherine of Valois page 

message: 'Within six months of Queen Catherine's death in January 1437, Owen Tudor was imprisoned at Newgate Prison, but he managed to escape.'
:Doesn't say anything about reasons for imprisonment. Valetude (talk) 16:20, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why jailed? 

message: I think, the meaning of Welsh "Tewdwr / Tudur" should be explained in this article. It should also be explained why the spelling in Welsh changes between "Tewdwr" and "Tudur", given the two variants are pronounced quite differently.
Wiktionary (Tudor) explains the name as a Welsh form of the given name "Theodore", 
whereas the article Tudor dynasty states that "Tewdur or Tudor is derived from the words tud "territory" and rhi "king".
Which explanation is the correct one? 
I personally favour the explanation provided by Wiktionary, since the patronymic name "ap Tudur" i.e. "son of Theodore" implies that Tudur is a given name.--Td222 (talk) 19:57, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation of  Tewdwr / Tudur 

message: I have done some updating to address the lack of citations - will refer to Biography project for reevaluation. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:20, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improvements