Talk:Kārlis Ulmanis

message: I would like to hear why HelderM believes the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was not secret protocol. It was not public at the time and the Soviet Union continued to deny its very existence for decades. I'm not really interested in the basis of the vitriol HelderM has been spewing that this is a fascist fan page, however, let's not delete facts (which has since been reverted). And if HelderM will actually stop and listen, Pēteris Cedriņš is far from an apologist for Ulmanis. Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Basis?

message: With the contributions of HelderM, it seems this is as good a place as any for a short discussion. I'm not sure what Latvian hate page HelderM initally obtained his information from, proper spelling of the various Latvian groups — any of them — might be a good start. (Apologies for spelling aside, if you're going to contribute to an encyclopedia, know your topic well enough. I don't know Russian, but any time I write anything anywhere citing a Russian source, I make absolutely sure I spell it and translate it properly.) Or perhaps HelderM is just a victim of believing anything one finds on the web that's repeated often enough to take on a false cloak of veracity.
Let's start with the biggest problem, which is the total fiction that Latvian fascists were Nazi/Hitler Germanophiles and are one and the same. Pērkonkrusts (Thunder Cross), the most overtly fascist of the right wing groups, were anti- all minorities (and yes, including anti-Semitism toward the Jews). But most of all, they despised the Germans. Gustavs Celmiņš, head of the party, stated: "Your time, you German people, is over. In Latvia of the Latvians there is no room for you." Latvia's entering into an agreement on German repatriation — often cited on the web as demonstrating a happy cooperation with the Nazis — was more akin to "good riddance!" (And let us recall Hitler's call home was motivated by the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact — Hitler did not want any Germans winding up in the Soviet Union.)
It's worthy to note that just about all of Europe descended into ultra-nationalism and dictatorships. From that standpoint, Latvia was a mirror of European politics at that time. And it's a far larger discussion as to when does ultra-nationalism and/or a dictatorship become fascism; as well, just as with "democracies," there is more than one flavor of fascist state.
To the question below of motivations... it is at the start of the 30's that nationalist and conservative forces banded around Ulmanis' agrarian right, increasingly frustrated with the ineffectiveness of a faction over-run Saeima. The continuing deteriorating condition of the Saeima is widely cited as a major contributor to the subsequent dictatorship — one part reason, one part justification, and one part excuse. The agrarian right was nationalistic and conservative — but certainly not interchangeable with Pērkonkrusts.
Also, to one of the other questions below... "benevolent" dictatorship here means (1) no one was killed during the coup, and (2) dissenters were imprisoned  but not killed, and (3) most of those were later quietly released and told to mind their own business going forward. [Does not mean there weren't arrests, that political parties weren't eliminated, that free press wasn't suppressed... Pēters J. Vecrumba 15:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: And Speaking of Latvian "Fascism"

message: Mussolini originated Fascism: a nationalistic movement utilizing terror and ethnic hatred to achieve and maintain power. I'm researching a biography of Ulmanis for my own web site, and I'm coming to the conclusion that while Latvia's Pērkonkruts certainly fits the description "facist," Ulmanis' dictatorship does not. Some, not all, dictionary definitions of fascism are becoming more benign—replacing "violence" with "suppression" and "promote ethnic hatred" with "sometimes exalt race"—as "fascism" is applied more widely to autocracies. (Undoubtedly, in part, due to the visceral reaction it prompts in people.) However, it is not factually appropriate to characterize Latvia as a fascist state either as compared to its contemporaries (which we are doing, whether or not we say we are) or as evaluated relative to the etymology of "fascism." Frankly, it's calling someone "murderous" and an "ethnic supremacist" who is guilty of neither killing nor ethnic extremism.—Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ulmanis and Fascism, Autocracy

message: OK I just read the discussion page and the first paragraph Pēteris Cedriņš had written and um I think it would be great if you guys took few minutes to attribute the statements you make like for instance putting the URL of the source in parentheses or writing down the ISBN of the book. So yea basically what I tried to say is that this talk page is better than the article (dang! and I just spent an hour or something wikifying it).
Concerning being a part of the community I want to say that Helder's in denial - I see no need of necessarily aligning an authoritarian regimen with fascism just because it wasn't explicitly communist.
And there's no such thing as a benevolent dictatorship regarding another comment - that is substantially erroneous even put in some comparative advantage sort of context. You might say that Zviedru Laiki were benevolent compared to the Russian Empire, but comparing supposedly faster economic growth or something to being deprived civil liberties is pretty much "off the wall." (besides it's the bullshit kids are being fed in school, and wikipedia is obviously supposed to tell you when you're being fed with bullshit (in this case unveiling that the "oh-so-prosperous" first republic was even more full of fail than the second republic, although we're heading there :D))
and please link to a google cached version of a page if site has some mad-sexy! content management system with asp or php (resulting in completely ugly URLs that are dead after a week). Or even better save the page locally before it's gone forever (that's probably a copyright infringement though). Well idk, but one URL that was listed as a reference (centropa.org) had to be removed without a substitute because the page simply was gone. 354d 01:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They don't teach such "bullshit" in school, except that I remember a sentence in politics textbook that said that sometimes authotritoian regimes can do some good, like improve economy. Google chaches also are bad idea - they go dead as well. See Wikipedia:Citing sources#What to do when a reference link "goes dead" for some better ideas---- Xil...sist! 03:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Technical Notes 

message: Please do not delete the places of birth and death in the intro paragraph, they are historically of extreme significance and need to remain there. I checked the guidelines about no place names in bio intros, it is a suggestion only. I appreciate the drive for consistency, but if you don't know the topic, don't come through just sanitizing the intro. Thank you. —PētersV (talk) 00:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:whatever 

message: The image :Image:Karlis Ulmanis.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --01:05, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Karlis Ulmanis.jpg

message: An interesting article detailing some of the anti-Jewish measures in education, social life, public employment and trade quickly after the start of the Ulmanis absolutism can be found on page four of: http://pdfs.jta.org/1934/1934-10-23_2979.pdf?_ga=2.90554266.1230465073.1496364423-2014478240.1496358341 .  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.22.0.145 (talk) 01:14, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  anti-Jewish 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Kārlis Ulmanis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040108161328/http://www.historia.lv/alfabets/U/ul/ulmanis/ulmanis.htm to http://www.historia.lv/alfabets/U/ul/ulmanis/ulmanis.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110720093413/http://libxml1a.unl.edu/cocoon/archives/ulmanis_latvian.ms110.unl.html to http://libxml1a.unl.edu/cocoon/archives/ulmanis_latvian.ms110.unl.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:00, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Kārlis Ulmanis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160304091330/http://www.ethnopolitics.org/ethnopolitics/archive/volume_I/issue_4/purs.pdf to http://www.ethnopolitics.org/ethnopolitics/archive/volume_I/issue_4/purs.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:17, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Noted Kirhenšteins was installed by occupational Soviet authorities. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 15:10, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Succession of offices 

message: "The Dictator without a Uniform: Krlis Ulmanis, Agrarian Nationalism, Transnational Fascism, and Interwar Latvia” Nationalism, Transnational Fascism, and Interwar Latvia", Jordan Tyler Kuck University of Tennessee - Knoxville, jkuck@utk.edu, https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4108  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.219.188.114 (talk) 12:00, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  More sources 

message: "the Soviet régime labelled Ulmanis a fascist, indistinguishable from the Nazis, accusing him of corruption and of bloody repressions against Latvian workers.[19] Ulmanis, in fact, had outlawed the fascist party".  The last bit is POV because it presupposes that outlawing the fascist party (along with all other parties) makes Ulmanis nonfascist.  Obviously, we've seen that he was a dictator who banned parties, banned free media, and was inspired by Mussolini's state corporatism.  But there are other senses in which he was not a fascist, depending on your definition.  However, to imply so strongly that he was not fascist is POV.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.208.199.100 (talk) 08:42, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: POV