Talk:Bacopa monnieri

message: On April 27, this article was nominated for deletion. The discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Bacopa monnieri. The result was keep. —Xezbeth 13:20, May 7, 2005 (UTC)
It's a good article. 24.7.87.135 07:27, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: These are two different plants altogether, and neither of these is the here bacopa - as shown on the articles on the respective plants. Can't refer articles with serious information to this one if it's not coherent.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.138.218.251 (talk) 04:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I just bought an aquarium plant called Moneywort Bacopa monnieri so somebody thinks it is the same. 142.163.195.92 (talk) 23:14, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Common names like moneywort must be supported by references to reliable sources. According to the Royal Horticultural Society, moneywort is a common name for Lysimachia nummularia. Declangi (talk) 03:27, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: removed '[[figwort]]' and '[[moneywort]]'

message: Updating family (TO Plantaginaceae) based on info at http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/genus.pl?1218  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Philiptdotcom (talk • contribs) 08:08, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  updating family 

message: http://www.livestrong.com/article/463132-what-is-the-difference-between-brahmi-gotu-kola/
Not a good source, but perhaps one should be found.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.154.228 (talk) 04:01, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  temporary hearing loss when with increased estrogen levels? 

message: The article refers to a dose of 250mg/kg in rodents.  Although a linear multiplication of this dose for a 76kg human would equal roughly 19g, it would be erroneous to equate these two doses.  I have undone the "correction" to my correction made by user Rhode Island Red (although understandably well-intentioned), and added a citation from which the mouse->human formula I used was pulled from (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17942826).  The correct translation for 250mg/kg in mice comes out to be 1.54g for a 76kg human.
Quikfastgoninja (talk) 04:46, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation of animal to human doses 

message: Herb-of-grace is mentioned by D. F. Austin 'Florida Ethnobotany' (2004) as an old American name, but no further source is cited. Myopic Bookworm (talk) 12:52, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative names 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Doee brahmi contain nicotine Amitanshu123 (talk) 09:07, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: This website  says small amount, not of pharmacologic importance. It cites a 1972 analysis as evidence (ref #16).David notMD (talk) 10:27, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a source on hand, but it is my understanding that nicotine content varies with strain. It is possible that some strains may have significant amounts of nicotine while others do not. Wikiman2718 (talk) 20:35, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brahmi 

message: Currently the article has information in the leading paragraph regarding FDA warnings to manufacturers to supplement manufacturers in the USA about "illegal" and "unproven" claims. It is said by some that this the FDA's actions represent the "state of the science." This is simply not true. The FDA does not perform a scientific evaluation. The law (known as DSHEA) and related rules simply state that you can't make medical claims about a dietary supplement in the USA without going through a process that these manufacturers have not done.
I believe this content should be permanently removed for the following reasons: it only applies in the USA (but English Wikipedia is used worldwide), the information does not in fact reflect the "state of the science" but is instead related to narrow political and legal issues in the USA only, that this information is really about issues with the dietary supplement industry in the USA and has nothing to do with the plant itself, that this information is transient and not important (the FDA sends out a lot of warning letters, and if this information stands then a LOT of edits are going to have to made to add this to every single herb about which any warning letter is issued, which is ridiculous).Eric Yarnell (talk) 22:20, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: First, , new talk page discussions go to the bottom of the page, WP:TALK. It is complete nonsense to infer the FDA does not have every relevant piece of scientific evidence at hand when judging and warning about misleading advertising and health claims made on supplements. It is further nonsense to infer that the FDA is shaded by "narrow political and legal issues" or that FDA rulings do not have international significance or influence on regulations in other countries. An FDA warning letter about false health claims and absence of drug approval is the state of the science on a given herb, in this case, Bacopa monnieri extract. For readers of an encyclopedia, it is better to have science (and warnings about false promotion) represented in the lede, rather than enabling visibility about the quackery of Ayurveda or other naturopathic practices. --Zefr (talk) 22:48, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have already pointed out to Zerf how FDA's statements work. He is stonewalling. A meta-analysis and three reviews find evidence that bacopa monnieri is an effective cognitive enhancer, and yet he will not acknowledge this position. It may be time for formal dispute if he continues edit warring. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a matter of quality and confirmation of evidence. References 7-9 - all from 2013-4 (therefore outdated, and not advanced since by better studies and reviews) - are inconclusive, as stated by the respective authors themselves. The Dec 2018 FDA advisory, and the two (among other) 2019 FDA warning letters (refs 3-4) reflect the available weak or no evidence of effect and safety, and appropriately warn consumers of the scams about bacopa products. Alzforum, a consortium for Alzheimer's R&D, reinforced the FDA warnings. If  or  have better reviews to add to the article, then do it, or stop wasting our time debating about an herb with no convincing science behind its use for cognition or any disorder. --Zefr (talk) 03:20, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: 1) The references are not outdated: they reflect the most recent evidence available. 2) The references support the use of bacopa moniieri as a cognitive enhancer: nowhere do they say that the evidence is inconclusive. 3) The FDA warning letters do not comment on the claim that bacopa monnieri is a cognitive enhancer. 4) Alzform talks about bacopa as a treatment for alzheimers. It does not discuss the herb as a cognitive enhancer in healthy people. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 03:30, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  The FDA warning letters only describe the supplements as "unapproved new drugs and/or misbranded drugs that claim to prevent, treat or cure Alzheimer’s disease and a number of other serious diseases and health conditions" because they make health claims. The FDA did not do a review of the scientific literature to determine this. They looked only at their own records, found bacopa is not approved for any of these indications, so by their rules it is a "misbranded drug." This has nothing to do with whether bacopa works or not. If they didn't make any claims it could be legally sold as a dietary supplement, which is done by many companies (full disclosure: mine included, I am president of Heron Botanicals, though bacopa sales make up <0.5% of total sales). Have you dealt with the FDA or have any experience with the FDA when it comes to dietary supplements? I certainly do and have. FDA warning letters make no sense to use as evidence for or against evidence that an herb is effective.Eric Yarnell (talk) 20:08, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

text:  The FDA sources are about certain illegal marketing claims that have been made by some American companies. They do not reference the claim that the herb is a nootropic, which is what Zefr is trying to use them to refute. The FDA statements regarding unapproved marketing claims may (or may not) belong in the article, but they certainly do not belong in the lede. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 15:09, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ledes summarize bodies. This content is apt to be summarized in the lede also. Alexbrn (talk) 15:16, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  The lede summarizes the most important parts of the body. Per 's first comment, the FDA's statements may not belong in the body at all, much less the lede. They refer only to certain illegal marketing claims made by some American companies selling supplements containing the herb. At least one of these warning letters was about a supplement which contained a large number of psychoactive compounds alongside bacopa, not even the herb itself.  has repeatedly used these statements in place of and to refute the well-sourced claim that bacopa is a cognitive enhancer in healthy people. The FDA's statements do not reference or refute this claim, which is currently omitted from the lede in favor the FDA warning letters per Zefr's edit warring . --Wikiman2718 (talk) 15:38, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Bacopa products are sold as supplements or used misleadingly in naturopathy/Ayurveda as medicines, but  fails to understand that the FDA holds false efficacy claims about such products to the highest standard as if they were prescription drugs. Drugs have to be proven as effective at a range of doses for a specific disease and safe over those doses, conditions not met for any bacopa product or even having sound preliminary evidence in the bacopa clinical literature cited. It is appropriate lede information to have this context of absence of efficacy and safety for bacopa extracts. There are no supplements or approved drugs for enhancing cognition in people without a neurological disorder. The FDA warning letters place a spotlight on this state of science for the lede. --Zefr (talk) 16:59, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  It doesnt' matter that bacopa is an Ayurvedic medicine. This does not make is ineffective. It is common for Wikipedia to make health claims not approved by the FDA, but supported by literature (e.g. off label uses of medicine). As Eric Yarnell pointed out, the warning letters do not in anyway reflect the state of science. They only indicate that specific American companies made specific claims that were not approved by the country's medical authorities. Similar warning letters can be found for almost any herb or supplement, but we do not see them referenced in other articles because they are irrelevant. Their inclusion is unencyclopedic. It is incorrect and blatant POV pushing to use these warning letters to overrule a claim that they do not even address. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 04:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

text: The article is WP:NPOV now, and no talk page consensus has been reached to change it. "Consensus cannot always be assumed simply because editors stop responding to talk page discussions in which they have already participated." --Zefr (talk) 23:11, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand how multiple meta-analyses carry less weight than an FDA letter that isn't making any attempt at summarizing data or being "up-to-date" or even citing evidence whatsoever. On Wikipedia:MEDRS is explicitly says that a meta-analysis is one of the highest level, best types of secondary evidence supporting medical information. I have cited those. An FDA letter citing no evidence should not overrule this type of information (I guess such a letter would be considered "expert opinion" which is a far lower level of evidence in Wikipedia:MEDRS), for all the reasons Wikiman2718 has pointed out. The FDA is enforcing a USA-only law, it is not trying to comment on the state of science on this plant. And again, if FDA letters on making medical claims disallowed by the DSHEA law are going to be the standard for Wikipedia, then a HUGE edit of almost every medicinal plant in the system is going to have to be made as FDA has issued letters like this about practically every one that exists. This is absurd.Eric Yarnell (talk) 18:24, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The FDA as a national expert body is a strong WP:MEDRS, maybe one of the strongest. Its views are due. Alexbrn (talk) 18:43, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not dispute that FDA is a strong source. The problem is, the way you are citing FDA does not support what you say it supports. FDA is only saying these companies are marketing the herb incorrectly in the USA, they are not saying "Bacopa is not a nootropic." The source of the evidence is only part of the issue here, and you don't seem to want to address the actual scientific evidence about the issue at hand. Multiple secondary sources (meta-analyses, also extremely strong evidence per WP:MEDRS) confirm that Bacopa is a nootropic. I propose you start a separate subsection about improper marketing of the herb if you feel this really is such an enormous issue, and then you better add such sections to practically every herb in Wikipedia as FDA has issued a lot of warning letters like this one about many other dietary supplements. I think this is not important and not helpful for Wikipedia readers, but at least it might be a way out of this constant back-and-forth. It is hard not to see your stubborn insistence on this non-scientific approach in general as anything other than a political smear on Bacopa, and by inference other elements of natural medicine.Eric Yarnell (talk) 17:01, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I read the most recent version of the article again and it is much improved. I still don't think the information about marketing of Bacopa in the USA and the FDA is important enough to be in the main body of the article but it is much better than it was. Thank you.Eric Yarnell (talk) 17:04, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: FDA

message: FYI, I have opened a discussion about this article at WP:FT/N#Bacopa monnieri. Thanks. Alexbrn (talk) 11:14, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Why ? seems unecessaryWalidou47 (talk) 17:37, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  FT/N 

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thread_title:  Possible copyright problem