Talk:Hernando de Soto (economist)

message: The original Spanish-langauge title of De Soto's 1986 book is El otro sendero. This does, indeed, translate as "the other path", but in a Peruvian context at that time, it seems almost certain to me that the title must be an allusion to the Maoist Sendero Luminoso ("Shining Path") guerrillas. Does anyone think otherwise? -- Jmabel 20:54, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: One way to make the POV back and forth a little less jarring, and perhaps more professional, is to source the criticism. I notice a lot of pronouns, but I have no idea who "they" are.  Presently it reads like two competing presuasive essays instead of an encyclopedia article. Coleca 11:38, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other path

message: I've cut the following recently added passage:
Of course, de Soto's own work is as dependent on Marx's central theorems, such as the role of capital.  The brunt of criticism directed towards de Soto's theory revolves around the fact that it does not address inequality, as the World Bank's own redistribution with growth policies did.
* "Of course" is pure POV.
* I'm unaware of anything in de Soto's work that draws on a specifically Marxian understanding of capital, let alone on Marx's central theorems. Are you just talking about reinvestment of surplus, or what? 
* "…de Soto's theory… does not address inequality&hellip" Seems utterly wrong to me. He may disagree with some of us as to the causes and remedies of inequality, but he certainly presents himself as addressing precisely that. 
Jmabel | Talk 01:34, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  & Marx 

message: Could (should?) we have some more detail and/or sources for this?
:Critics, however, argue that the so called Fujishock had devastating social consequences.
It looks vague and unsupported, as is. 
Also, have any studies (preferably independent) been done assessing the impact of his work on poverty and the economy?
Take a look at Prof. Erica Field's work (Princeton and Harvard).  Her stuff comes up on Google.
--Singkong2005 01:19, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: On critics of Fujishock, you might see Alberto_Fujimori#Legacy. I believe that you can find citations there. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:35, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources? Studies? 

message: I read this article on Venezuela which says this:
:"In cities across the country neighborhoods are organizing, with help from the government, to draw up maps of the settlements where poor people have built houses on public land so they can get titles to their houses, thereby creating massive amounts of private property in the form of titled real estate.  The government has been quite encouraging to capitalist development in general, seeing it as fundamental to a prosperous society."
This sounds to me like a de Sotoist plan. Does anyone know of de Soto's influence in Hugo Chavez' Venezuela? Seabhcán 11:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  de Soto and Chavez? 

message: The following edits by KDRGibby appear to be pure POV insertions. They are also not very well written. Some of the surrounding material also has POV problems: while I believe it to be an accurate summageion of what de Soto's critics say, it lacks attribution. KDRGibby's insertions, however, seem to be nothing more than his personal response to those critics, and the use of "should" seems particularly inappropriate. The previous wordings may have been weaselly as to attribution, but the additions are outright POV in the narrative voice of the article.
The additions are bolded in the following; I've also provided the relevant context.
:The lack of a significant increase in lending to the poor by private banks leads critics to believe that his policies are oversold. Though they do not take into account possible regulatory interferences with the bank and problems with legal contract law.
:Others have claimed that by legalizing the property of the poor, de Soto's policies have led to their land being subjected to higher taxes and regulations than they were in the informal economy, thus leading to more inefficiency than under an informal property regime. But this should not be viewed as a criticism of De Soto, but as a criticism of big government interference as De Soto criticizes.
My gut is simply to remove Gibby's passages, but I will allow a few days for someone to see if they can reword this in a way that is at least no worse than the surrounding material. - Jmabel | Talk 19:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Populist leaders have used this failure of the free market system to wipe out poverty in the developing world to beat their "anti-globalization" drums. But the ILD believes that the real enemy is within the flawed legal systems of developing nations that make it virtually impossible for the majority of their people –and their assets– to gain a stake in the market. The people of these countries have talent, enthusiasm, and an astonishing ability to wring a profit out of practically nothing.
Lori (talk) 06:56, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV insertions 

message: A criticism section aggressively defensive of de Soto is not a 'Criticism Section'. Haberstr 16:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He's definitely a controversial figure, and I don't mean that in a disparaging way: he has many supporters and many detractors. He is pretty much the point man for the positive potential of "underground" free markets. This has led to opposition from two directions: on one hand, the legalists (and elite capitalists) who like markets but dislike and distrust these "irregular" markets that form among the poor, and, on the other hand, those who dislike or simply distrust market capitalism itself. Both groups doubt the efficacy of the policies he advocates, often for starkly contrasting reasons. - Jmabel | Talk 00:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Article talk pages are for working on the article (and secondarily for making queries when you figure that someone watchlisting this article is a good candidate to answer your query). They are not intended as a place for general open-ended discussion and expression of personal opinions. -  Jmabel | Talk 05:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism Section

message: The article has been vandalized repeatedly over the past few months, and there are still sentences missing in some places. It would be helpful if someone familiar with the article would give it a thorough review. Wachholder0 15:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As of 20:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: This reads like public relations for De Soto and ILD, not an encyclopedia article about him/it.  Even the "Criticisms" section (the best part of the article) seems heavily biased towards Hernando.  There's no need to mention The Economist's lavish praise twice in one article.  Economists (and legal scholars and others) have for 100 years emphasized the role of property rights as a fundamental building block for the poor and middle class.  Neither intellectually nor in policy measures (designed nor implemented) has De Soto had as much impact as his ego/PR machine would like to claim.  He labels as "enemies" those who call attention to all his PR efforts.  That's pretty extreme language -- especially to apply to those who are simply 'calling a spade a spade.' DBrnstn 18:50, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article if full of inflated claims about the subject's work; it has been crafted to exploit Wikipedia for self-promotion.  Many of its claims for de Soto have been given citations to make them appear substantiated.  But, upon inspection, the references  are circular.  Many of the claims in this Wikipedia article link to unsupported claims by de Soto and his organization.  For example, the first claim in the section "Reforms in Peru and elsewhere" says that de Soto and ILD "were responsible for some four hundred ...."  Where does the 400 number come from?  It comes from the ILD.  The citation is to a PR blurb that appeared on a website called The Globalist.  The language is ILDs, and it is identical to the language in this Wikipedia article.  ILD seems to have written much of this Wikipedia article, and then for authority it references stuff copied from this Wikipedia article!
The next claim is that ILD's work in Peru benefited 1.2 million families and 380,000 businesses.  These impressive accomplishments also are given a citation in the Wikipedia article.  But, what is the authority for the claim?  It is a speech given by de Soto himself.
Part of the mystique surrounding de Soto outside Peru is ILD's claim that he confronted the Maoist Sendero Luminoso and helped defeat it.  I don't believe this claim is taken seriously inside Peru.  In Lima's shanty towns, it was unarmed grass roots activists, not Hernando de Soto, that had to confront Abimael Guzman's Shining Path terrorists.  Many of the activists were leftists and some, like María Elena Moyano, paid with their lives.  The supporting citation to de Soto's Sendero claim is the Economist of January 30, 2003 (Wikipedia article footnote 10). There de Soto  claimed that he survived three attempts on his life.  The article continued: "Mr de Soto concedes that it was lucky the Shining Path were so cruel to their potential supporters among the poor; Che Guevara would have been harder to beat, as 'he was a nice guy'."  So, for de Soto, the Sendero murders of Moyano and others apparently were blessings.  "Lucky," indeed, for de Soto.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lastudies (talk • contribs) 19:53, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: So a way to make clear that there are a number of sitations directly to Soto's own webpages is to not just make a citation, but to write something like Soto's group writes that it's responsible for blank. Then the next step would be to integrate the criticism section into the main body of the article - so instead of people having to wait until the end of the article (which some may not even scroll to), a claim by Soto's group is followed directly with a comment from a party that disagrees with the claim. That would balance the article.--RossF18 (talk) 20:56, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Puff Piece PR, not an article 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Someone has appeared to have moved the page back to Hernando de Soto (economist). He is most comonly known as Hernando de Soto Polar to outside media outlets. The outside world outlets count, too. It's not only Peru. I will revert the move back to Hernando de Soto Polar.
Sorry if I made anyone angry
Mausebru (talk) 23:19, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  De Soto or De Soto Polar 

message: This is minor compared to the larger puff piece argument, which I agree with, but Nobel prize finalists in economics are not made public for 50 years. The cited source is just repeating his PR claims without further validation. That should be removed. Since finalists are private, I don't know who they were in 2002, but Nobels are not awarded for the type of work he does. It's an implausible claim without validation. 73.229.169.126 (talk) 21:22, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nobel Prize