Talk:List of islands of Trinidad and Tobago

message: How come I count only 22 islands?
:Because I'm not sure what the 23rd one is.  Guettarda 13:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Doubtful - the number comes from the Archipelagic Waters and Exclusive Economic Zone Act No 24 of 1986.  Counting Patos would not have produced a boundary which was in any way acceptable to Venezuela (boundary negotiations in 1990 with Venezuela were in regard to the Galleons Passage)  Guettarda 02:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 22 Islands?

message: Okay myself I am trying to figure out why I can only find 22 islands as well. All published sources refer to Trinidad and Tobago as 23 islands, but as mention above, I can only find 22 (and we only list 22 here). So for the theories:
*Inclusion of Patos in the list, which was part of Trinidad until 1942. With Patos, the list would be 23. Even assuming that reliable sources have made a mistake of keeping to include it, this doesn't make sense since Soldado Rock was Venezuelan territory at the time (there were essentially traded).
*Regarding the Huevos theory, it's a possibility that perhaps Huevos is now two official islands. At high tide, Huevos is separated (seen it myself personally), and I've seen mention of Huevos North and Huevos South online, but not yet in a reliable source. However in low tide the islands are still joined. This has a chance of being it, but I have never seen it mentioned in the T&T press. My greatest doubt in this theory is the fact that I also have a copy of Western Isles of Trinidad (2006 revised edition), and no mention has been made of Huevos being split into two islands. Fr de Verteuil is pretty much the most trusted source for the history of Western Trinidad.
*Parasol Rocks, which are right off Huevos could be considered an island as well. But my problem with this is there are a couple of named islands like this elsewhere. Just north of Chacachacare is Cabresse island, which is about the same size as the Parasol rocks (actually I think they look bigger). But again Western Isles of Trinidad fails to mention these two significantly.
I'm really trying to figure this out, because it just doesn't make sense. Maybe this is like the five islands where someone forgot to count (urban legend). I figure there might be something reliable available recently after the fishing dispute with Barbados. Since we went to the UN Maritime Tribunal that we were an archipelago in our argument over our maritime EEZ, maybe we needed to list our islands in our presentation to justify the status. I'm hoping these documents are online. I will try to reach Fr De Verteuil and see if he can help shed some light on this issue. Anyone with any info, please help! --  R45  talk! 02:16, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Trinidad and Tobago satisfies all the criteria laid down in the Convention for an archipelagic state." "The archipelagic state of Trinidad and Tobago contains a group of twenty-three (23) islands and inter-connecting waters which are so..."
This is very odd however as in 1986, Trinidad had not submitted its map points to define the boundary. In the legislation in 1986, no mention of coordinates were made until it was finally went through parliament in 1988, after this analysis was published. There is another book in 1989 that has the same wording , that looks to have similar wording to the 1986 publication. Based on this, it is very doubtful that the number 23 is nothing more than either an error or map interpretation by lawyers writing books (who can make mistakes). In summary
*The only sources that state T&T is comprised of 23 islands are two old law opinion books with questionable data. It is important to note these books are merely lawyers opinions in commentaries of the Laws of the Sea and not any official UN publication. 
*All online references to 23 islands seem to be based on copyedits of Wikipedia, which has had the number 23 since 2005.
*Neither the United Nations nor any official Government publication mentions any recognition of "Islands"
*The difference between Islands, Islets and Rocks is subjective and not official
*The main criteria for archipelagos (by the UN Laws of the Sea) are landforms that are above sea level at high tide
*23 Islands simply does not make sense. In geography maps, T&T has around 30 names landforms. There are also more named landforms with the word "Island" in them, including Marble Island, Richmond Island, Smiths Island, Queens Island, Cabresse Island and possibly others. Sister's Rock is also referred to as Sister's Island in the TT Parliament. 
*Encyclopedia Britannica nor Encarta name the number of islands 
As such, I suggest we immediately remove the 23 Islands text from any Trinidad and Tobago article. It can be rewritten to and include "Two main islands and several smaller islands and islets" or something similar that can't by factually wrong until we can verify from the Trinidad and Tobago government if there is indeed a number of islands or landforms recognised by the state. Just because the figure has been there for 3 years doesn't mean we should allow it to stand. --  R45  talk! 05:16, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I of course would recommend using "numerous" rather than "several" ... several has an implication of slightly more than a handful.  Numerous often refers to "too numerous to count", which sounds about right :-) The whole phrase about islands is best served by stating "Trinidad and Tobago is an archepelagic landform, consisting of the two main islands and numerous others" or something along those lines  BMW(drive) 11:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I also suggest that the additional named islands (Marble, et al should likely be added!) BMW(drive) 15:04, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have changed the wording to numerous on this, the Trinidad and Trinidad and Tobago. I'm actively working on getting more information on the subject. I think veering on the edge of safety is our best option if we want to keep Wikipedia reliable. --  R45  talk! 16:20, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Veering on the "ledge" might have be been more fun :-P  BMW(drive) 17:17, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 23 Islands Revisited

message: Breaking into a subsection because I'm changing the direction of my questioning now. Contrary to what I posted above, I cannot find any official source that states Trinidad and Tobago is made up of 23 islands. First, the figure was added by Guettarda at the main Trinidad and Tobago article on February 3, 2005 (diff). It was an unsourced edit. The comment above stated that the figure came from the Archipelagic Waters and Exclusive Economic Zone Act No 24 of 1986, an Act from the Trinidad Parliament. However, reading a copy of the act, no such figure is given in the act. It merely states that Trinidad is considering itself an archipelagic state. The subsequent legislation in 1988, Archipelagic Baselines of Trinidad and Tobago Order, 1988  which sets the maritime boundaries (with coordinates) does not state the 23 figure. In fact, landforms not on our island list are used to set the archipelagic boundary (Including Cabresse island, East Rock, Casa Cruz Rock, etc). 
Reading the United Nations Convention on the Laws of the Sea and the criteria for states being archipelagic , T&T has included these landforms in defining its boundaries, and it is recognised by the UN. The UN, nor the Trinidad and Tobago government, does appear to have a criteria for the definition of an island or islet. It's a subjective word and does not appear to be an official criteria.
However I have found a mention of the "23 islands" in 1986 using Google Book search . In an analysis of Trinidad's declaration of being an archipelagic state, Robert W. Smith writes that he believes Trinidad meets the criteria with 
:"Trinidad and Tobago satisfies all the criteria laid down in the Convention for an archipelagic state." "The archipelagic state of Trinidad and Tobago contains a group of twenty-three (23) islands and inter-connecting waters which are so..."
This is very odd however as in 1986, Trinidad had not submitted its map points to define the boundary. In the legislation in 1986, no mention of coordinates were made until it was finally went through parliament in 1988, after this analysis was published. There is another book in 1989 that has the same wording , that looks to have similar wording to the 1986 publication. Based on this, it is very doubtful that the number 23 is nothing more than either an error or map interpretation by lawyers writing books (who can make mistakes). In summary
*The only sources that state T&T is comprised of 23 islands are two old law opinion books with questionable data. It is important to note these books are merely lawyers opinions in commentaries of the Laws of the Sea and not any official UN publication. 
*All online references to 23 islands seem to be based on copyedits of Wikipedia, which has had the number 23 since 2005.
*Neither the United Nations nor any official Government publication mentions any recognition of "Islands"
*The difference between Islands, Islets and Rocks is subjective and not official
*The main criteria for archipelagos (by the UN Laws of the Sea) are landforms that are above sea level at high tide
*23 Islands simply does not make sense. In geography maps, T&T has around 30 names landforms. There are also more named landforms with the word "Island" in them, including Marble Island, Richmond Island, Smiths Island, Queens Island, Cabresse Island and possibly others. Sister's Rock is also referred to as Sister's Island in the TT Parliament. 
*Encyclopedia Britannica nor Encarta name the number of islands 
As such, I suggest we immediately remove the 23 Islands text from any Trinidad and Tobago article. It can be rewritten to and include "Two main islands and several smaller islands and islets" or something similar that can't by factually wrong until we can verify from the Trinidad and Tobago government if there is indeed a number of islands or landforms recognised by the state. Just because the figure has been there for 3 years doesn't mean we should allow it to stand. --  R45  talk! 05:16, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I of course would recommend using "numerous" rather than "several" ... several has an implication of slightly more than a handful.  Numerous often refers to "too numerous to count", which sounds about right :-) The whole phrase about islands is best served by stating "Trinidad and Tobago is an archepelagic landform, consisting of the two main islands and numerous others" or something along those lines  BMW(drive) 11:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I also suggest that the additional named islands (Marble, et al should likely be added!) BMW(drive) 15:04, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have changed the wording to numerous on this, the Trinidad and Trinidad and Tobago. I'm actively working on getting more information on the subject. I think veering on the edge of safety is our best option if we want to keep Wikipedia reliable. --  R45  talk! 16:20, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Veering on the "ledge" might have be been more fun :-P  BMW(drive) 17:17, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Part Two

message: I've added stubs for the 2 additional minor Bocas Islands, but removed the Geo info as I don't have it.  Perhaps someone can do so.  I also asked a question on the Islands Template discussion itself.  BMW(drive) 13:24, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additions