Talk:Lords of Chaos (book)

message: This was never meant to be a book about Black Metal as a genre. Hence the title "The Bloody Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground". It is about the violence, people and the ideals or lack thereof surrounding Black Metal and not the development of the music itself. There is very little information about the development of BM as a musical genre, although, it is not for wiki to say Moynihan should have filled this void. Also, in this article the line "...it completely omits the developments of melodic black metal and melodic death metal that were well under way when book was first published..." is irrelevant, given that the book is not concerned (and was never made out to be) with BM as a genre as such. Excepting, maybe, the impacts on the genre made by certain events invloving participants in the BM scene. The article could include something about the statements made by Vark Vikernes concerning misinformation in LoC. These statements used to be on the old Burzum website www.burzum.com (now closed). I dont know if/where they are still available. PyrE 13:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I had found the statements that are allegedly by Vikernes on www.burzum.com. Currently they are linked under external links. They might be useful, but since Vikernes has written something completely different at www.burzum.org, one has to deal with them rather carefully. Regarding your point that LoC "is not  concerned (and was never made out to be) with BM as a genre as such", it strongly suggests that Black Metal="Satanic Metal Underground", and this way it is perceived by the public. If you can read German, check out the two German reviews: Both take the book to be about "Black Metal". And Coogan's review is titled: "How Black is Black Metal?" Zara1709 15:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not really disagree about the book being about Black Metal. I disagree that the book was supposed to be about Black Metal and its development as a musical genre. Ofcourse, the book is going to have to establish (as it does) some sort of background regarding Black Metal. Although, I doubt Moynihan & Didrik Søderlind were trying to create a definitive and comprehensive guide to the development of BM, even if it has been stated otherwise. People say many things in reviews and such that are not necessarily correct. That is why I believe (imho) that some statements in the article show a misunderstanding as to the objective of this work. Maybe I get your point *Black Metal="Satanic Metal Underground"*, but it is not essentially correct. I think that LoC is more about the development of the Satanic/Heathen/Nationalist/etc ideals concerning people involved in the scene and its later escalation into violence and such. Not necessarily about the Black Metal scene in its entirety and its musical progression. Regardless of public perspective, should not this article establish what the book Lords of Chaos actually entails, rather than simply expressing assumed opinions. I do not think it is wrong to state in this article that the book is about Black Metal and its history, it is just not a musical history in particular. It is more than that (or less?). I guess people may be mistaken into believing this book is a comprehensive guide to BM. So I guess it may be important to express that it is not or atleast make this clear. I noticed the sentence I mentioned has been shortened. Interesting. Good work on finding those links btw, I should have a look. Anyway, I will get over this article now, it could do with some work and, alas, I have little time for such endeavors. PyrE 03:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to bring to your attention a line from the preface: "Black Metal has taken the fire and used it as fuel, the accelerant for an one way ride to hell." (LoC, XII)I think, this overloaded metaphor together with the quotes already in the article,  can be used as evidence that Moynihan wants to portray the BM scene as some kind of "Satanic Metal Underground" from that arsons are committed. This might be true for the early BM scene in Norway, but it is definitely not true for Black Metal as whole. Zara1709 12:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: LORDS

message: What do you think?  I think better information can be gained by reading wikipedia than can be gained from reading this book.  As a metalhead, I have the feeling that Moynihan is an outsider writing about something he doesn't really understand. Maybe he is catering to people who aren't familiar with metal, but it's to the detriment of the book's accuracy.  I think he misses the point of some bands and even gets some information wrong.  For example, he states "the Misfits mutated into Samhain...by 1988 the band had changed names again, to simply Danzig", which is totally false.  The Misfits ended when Glenn Danzig left the band and formed Samhain, which later became Danzig.  Furthermore, the Misfits reunited (without Danzig) in 1997, meaning that Danzig and The Misfits existed as separate bands at the time of the book's printing.  Its one of many sloppy errors/hasty summaries in the book that make it frustrating to read.
*There tends to be errors and incomplete information on wikipedia as well.  Just take a look at the Mayhem page!  I think one can learn more by reading interviews from that time period
I personally feel that this book has little information about black metal as music and is, (as is pointed out above) more about the crimes, specifically Varg Vikernes. I think we should perhaps point out that this book shows little grasp or interest in black metal as a genre.
*I've just updated the paragraph on the book's reception, highlighting the fact that the views expressed by Moynihan, his emphasis on extreme instances, etc. are seen as highly controversial in the bm scene.  Let me know if it sounds alright. Can't think of a good username 00:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What do you think?

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thread_title:  Dead link 

message: Again, Cyrus XIII, I have to ask whether you have actually read the book. There obviously is a "not so hidden subcurrent" of right-wing extremism in there. This is not the opinion of some of the reviewers, but an accurate description of its contents.  Here are two more quotes from Lords of Chaos (1998):
*about Slayer: "-despite his last name, there is nothing remotely "Aryan" about led singer Tom Araya, who in fact comes from a Hispanic South American background" (p. 30)
*about a Norwegian right-wing 'activist' Tom Kimmo Eiternes: "This vision of the enemy might predispose him to take his actions one step further, from harassing immigrants to Baader-Meinhof style urban guerilla warfare directed at leading power figures." (p. 318)
The reason Neopaganism isn't even mentioned in the article currently is that the quote on this was removed: 
""Satanism and the heathenism from which it ultimately descends are themselves the products of the archetypes and differentiated psyches of nations and peoples, and they therefore spring from the same “occult” or mystical sources as nationalism itself. Nationalism is the political manifestation of a folk’s unconscious; heathenism/Satanism is the spiritual manifestation." (p. 329&330) Zara1709 19:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Not an opinion

message: You both speak German so here is the Wikipedia page in German maybe it can give you some hints. I would help but you would have to translate the entire page for me ;) :  
Das Buch Lords of Chaos (englische Ausgabe ; deutsche Ausgabe ) erzählt die Geschichte der okkulten Rockmusik mit Schwerpunkt auf Black Metal. Die Autoren sind Michael Moynihan von der Band „Blood Axis“ und Didrik Søderlind, Journalist der Zeitschrift „Playboy“ in Norwegen. Das Buch erschien erstmals 1998 in englischer Sprache, 2003 wurde die deutsche Ausgabe veröffentlicht. Analog zum erscheinen der deutschen Version erschien ein CD-Sampler mit Liedern der im Buch erwähnten Künstler.
„Lords of Chaos“ ist knapp 400 Seiten stark und enthält viele Gespräche mit unter anderem Hendrik Möbus, Varg Vikernes oder Ihsahn. Es werden die Geschehnisse um die Kirchenbrände bzw. die Morde in den frühen 90er Jahren, welche die Black-Metal-Szene in die Schlagzeilen brachten, beleuchtet. Weiterhin gibt das Buch Auskunft über den Einfluss von Okkultismus und Satanismus auf Rock- und Metal-Musik.
Es wurde beim Erscheinen sehr kontrovers diskutiert, sowohl in der deutschen Presse als auch in szenespezifischen Zeitschriften. Dies hängt unter anderem mit den Verstrickungen von Michael Moynihan in die rechte bis rechtsextremistische Szene zusammen. Auch die teilweise deutliche Bewunderung des Autors für seine Gesprächspartner tat ihr Übriges dazu, eine Kontroverse zu entfachen.
Die Compilation umfasst, neben den im Buch genannten Bands der norwegischen und schwedischen Black-Metal-Szene, mehrere Künstler aus dem okkultistischen und satanistischen Umfeld, wie Aleister Crowley und Anton Szandor LaVey. Auch Vertreter, die das Okkulte eher am Rande streifen, wie Robert Johnson, wurden aufgenommen.
Weblinks 
* Rezension der „taz“
* „Hasse deinen nächsten wie dich selbst“ Rezension Heise-online
* Musiksampler, offizielle Seite der Plattenfirma
Jmm6f488 14:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the English article already uses both of the outside sources presented in the German one and the latter otherwise fails to name any references  for its content. Looking to other Wikipedia versions rarely helps in content disputes. - Cyrus XIII 14:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  In German 

message: Let me provide another quote from the book:
"The signs of Christianity's influence on western culture are everywhere. God is regularly invoked in the speeches of the politicians, and references to his name flow throughout the streams of secular society. God is impossible to avoid. It is thus not surprising that those who proclaim themselves "fists in the face of God" (to borrow a phrase from Fenriz of Darkthrone), would end up attacking society as a whole. It is also in their desire to crush Christianity they should adopt faith - real or symbolic- in other deities and demons. Spirituality is innate to the human psyche, and has a way of rearing its head even in the most rational and atheistic people. The same person who rids himself of one theology may well harbor a desire for a new faith - one full of mighty and unforgiving gods, capable of smashing away the ruins of the old. 
Black Metal provides all of this. Whether it is centered on Satanic or heathen symbolism matter not. In both instances the iconography and the music fuse together into an odium theologicum directed at the faith and lifestyle of the status quo. It is essentially intolerant, uncompromising, and absolutist in its worldview." (Lords of Chaos, First edition, p.301) 
  
Now, I will paraphrase this and add it to the article. That the book includes this statement is fact and can't possible be POV. Whereas I get  the impression that Moynihan himself desires to crush Christianity, this would not go into the article, but that he interprets Black Metal as "essentially intolerant, uncompromising, and absolutist in its worldview" has to go in there. And don't tell me that this is prohibited by wp:neutrality. Zara1709 14:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Desire to crush Christianity

message: I still can't accept it that some of my previous work was deleted, without me being given to opportunity to respond to the concerns. Flag it with [ ] or [], but don't delete it. But it guess if have to. Thus I am forced to spend several more hours on  on this, restoring the deleted parts and writing in an even more neutral tone. I will go paragraph by paragraph, so that there is enough time to take every singe sentence to the talk page:
1) The first thing it did was to add the mentioning of "heathenism" back in that had been removed with the one quote previously and to reassess this article for Wikipedia:WikiProject Neopaganism. This time I assessed it low- instead of mid-importance. This book is the best example I know that connects Neopaganism (or "heathenism") with right-wing ideology. Zara1709 01:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewriting the deleted content

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Lords of Chaos.jpg

message: Uh, what the hell is wrong with the references on the bottom of the page?  Right now none of the links to references even work on the page.  Someone needs to fix that. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 17:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: WTF

message: I think the class of this article is above start class now. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 23:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Class 

message: "LOC is best characterized as a palimpsest with the author's own political ideology at work just’ below the surface of a text ostensibly devoted solely to analyzing an extremist musical sub-culture." The current revision of the article brings this in only as the Critique of Kevin Cogan, whereas it is in fact an accurate summary of the book. Zara1709 (talk) 07:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is Coogan's opinion. This is apparently also your opinion. That's great. However, that doesn't mean we base the article around it, we just cite Coogan's opinion as that - his opinion - and move on. Wikipedia is neutral. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, WP is neutral; I put it to you that Lords of Chaos is in fact a work with an ideology just below the surface of the text. Since you claim to be seriously concerned about wp:neutrality, I should expect you to take my concern seriously.  Zara1709 (talk) 07:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

text: This "ideology" "just below the surface" business is your opinion. WP:NPOV dictates that we do not state opinion as fact. Coogan's criticism is presented in the article. What more do you want? :bloodofox: (talk) 07:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the "ideology just below the surface" is fact. You can't summarize it any better. Now stop repeating NPOV,NPOV,NPOV and discuss the content. Find me an actual error on Coogan's article, for example. Zara1709 (talk) 07:54, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

text: NPOV is the guiding light here. Whatever this is mysterious "ideology" is, it doesn't matter either way - again, neutrality dictates we don't pass editor opinion off as unattributed fact. "This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles." I'm not here to critique Coogan's article, though it's easy enough. Unsourced claims like "rumored" accounts of arson are dubious at best and the guy is either ignorant of the Industrial Culture Handbook or he's intentionally leaving out left-wing bands like Test Dept from his industrial music overview in favor of mentions of SPK eating sheep brains and P. Orridge's early performance art with Cosey. Anyway, again, it doesn't matter what I think of Coogan's work - he wrote about it, we write what he said in the appropriate section, next reference please. This is how one builds an article. :bloodofox: (talk) 08:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So what statement by Coogan contradicts the book you mention? Unless you are willing to take into account the possibility that Coogan's view is factually correct, we are not moving forward. Coogan's article is the only available source that analyses the book. I have read Lords of Chaos throughoutly and I consider Coogans analysis to be factually correct. As long as the article does not use Coogan as a reliable source (meaning in the contents section) it is biased and violates wp:NPOV. Zara1709 (talk) 08:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Using Coogan's criticism as a basis for the article is absurd and nonsensical. All of the opinions, reviews, and criticisms regarding of the book go are in the criticism section. The article makes no judgment about the book as it stands. Lack of judgment is neutrality. We are not here to present a book through someone's lens and call it a day. The book does not present itself as providing a nefarious ideology just below the surface, therefore we do not state that it provides a nefarious ideology brimming just below the surface. If someone says the book has a nefarious ideology brimming just below the surface, then we put it in the criticism section with the reference that says it. I am describing rudimentary editing. If you are not aware of this by now... :bloodofox: (talk) 08:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean by judgement? If I was to summarize the book myself, saying that LoC tries to give the impression that unconnected crimes around the world announce the resurgence of an Odinic Archetype which will finally lead to some sort of Ragnarök, you would claim that I need a source for it or it would be OR.On the other hand, if I just quoted or paraphrased Coogan: "The book, however, suggests that the events in Norway reflect a growing tendency among alienated youth from Miami to Moscow, who are now allegedly blending black metal, Satanism, and currents of fascism into a culturally explosive Molotov cocktail.To buttress its thesis, LOC points to metalheads turned murderers, including "Belfagor" from the Swedish Satanic band Nefandus, who attacked a black man in a self-described "niggerhunt"; Bard Eithun ("Faust") from the Norwegian group Emperor, who murdered a gay man that sought to seduce him; and Jon Nodveidt from the Swedish group Dissection, who butchered an Algerian immigrant. LOC even devotes an entire chapter to an obscure two-man German band called Absurd, who coldly executed an annoying fellow high school student . Although the members of Absurd are self-pro-claimed Nazis and Vikernes fans, even they reported that they committed the crime for personal, not political, motives.LOC also dwells on the activity of otherwise highly obscure fascist propagandists with no direct ties to black metal", then wyou would claim that this would violated the NPOV. Either you have a fallacious understanding of wp:NPOV, or you are using this strategy as a measure to keep anyone who wants to give the ideological content of the book in Catch-22 Situation. Zara1709 (talk) 08:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality disputed II

message: I saw this sentence in reference to a newer interview done with Hellhammer (after he came out against the book in an earlier interview and said he didn't care about the color of fans): "However, in a newer one done in 2007, he said he still stands behind his former statement "that black metal was only for white people and that in Norway people didn't like negroes."[25]" but I'm not sure it should even be used. Read the context. Then read the actual interview. The whole thing is done in a very tongue-in-cheek manner, like Hellhammer and the interviewer were messing around. In fact, during the interview Hellhammer even seems to come off as pro-gay or at least not having a problem with gay people whatsoever. If this statement is left in, I think it should be changed to reflect the tone of the interview at the very least. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 03:23, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last sentence in Critical reaction 

message: I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
::This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
::#There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
::#It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
::#In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:36, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  removing POV tag with no active discussion per [[Template:POV]] 

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