Talk:Vladimir Lenin/Archive 1

message: Incorrect; gives false impression of close sequence in time; barely relevant here it its present form.
# This event iss distant from the moment of grabbing power. You might as well write "before winning the WWII". 
# The article is about Lenin, not Stalin. 
# they were Stalin's colleagues as well.
# they were killed not because they were Lenin's friends, hence irrelevance to the article.
If you want to mention this event, please make a more elaborate phrase. there is actually more to say how Stalin and Lenin ar related besides Stalin's killing their common friends. Mikkalai 00:12, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:   before executing many of Lenin's closest colleagues and followers

message: The fact is that people in many countries chose to pay respect to Vladimir Lenin (see List of places named after Lenin and List of statues of Lenin) for very incomplete lists - just to get the idea. But the article in its present form omits this somewhat important fact. An image of Lenin's statue in India, preferably with some comment about other countries honoring his life, would only help the article. This isn't really POV, just providing missing facts. As for the Petropavlovsk image, I just didn't like this specific photo - there are some unexplained people in the bottom and the context is missing. The Indian one is better, since it doesn't have any distracting details. However, I don't mind both of them being present. Paranoid 23:13, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  India vs. Russia 

message: The following quotation
:"беспрекословное подчинение единой воле",  "беспрекословное повиновение воле одного лица", "беспрекословное повиновение воле советского руководителя, диктатора" (В.И.Ленин ПСС. Lenin, Complete Works, vol. 36.  pages 200, 201, 203.) 
:"unquestioned subjugation to the united will", "unquestioned subjugation to the will of a single person", "unquestioned subjugation to the will of the Soviet leader, the dictator"
justifies the right to call Lenin dictator whenever appropriate in the article (compare: dictatorship of the proletariat). Mikkalai 19:06, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You call his own quotations rubbish? Him being a minority is a ridiculous statement. This could be at the beginning, when there were no bolsheviks or mensheviks. Once Lenin won for good, he kept the power for good. As for fighting, fighter he was, and name caller, too.  Mikkalai 01:46, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: Yep, he would. Ivan the Terrible acted just like thus: threatened to go into monastery. And he actually left Moscow a couple of times.  Lenin's threats to resign (on multiple occasions, by the way) were but the tool to impose his will. And these threats worked, you know. Mikkalai 16:39, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: No more ridiculous than calling a person you don't know a moron. I suggest you to learn Russian and read a couple of volumes of Lenin's complete works. You may start from the phrase at the beginning of this section. Mikkalai 16:39, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: To be more precise - all the struggle for nonsensical Communist ideas went to crap and Lenin saw that, he was right, now thanks to that we saw despotism/partocracy, exalting some individuals above all and stripping most people of honest oportuninty to rise by keeping all down, doing well at discrediting the Communism itself. Thanks, Vladimir Il'ich at admitting that.–Gnomz007(?) 15:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

text: A little Russian is enough to recognize the word in question as a loan word from the Latin dictator. What is missing is context; the Roman dictator did hold absolute power for six months, after which he was out of office and his actions reviewable. Given that Lenin wrote and acted, until March 1921, as though the Bolshevik government were temporary, a holding action until relieved by the World Revolution, it may be that the analogy applies. Septentrionalis 18:38, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dictator 

message: "Lenin" was one of his revolutionary pseudonyms. He is believed to have created it to show his opposition to Georgi Plekhanov who used the pseudonym Volgin, after the Volga River; Ulyanov picked the Lena which is longer and flows in the opposite direction. He is sometimes erroneously referred to in the West as "Nikolai Lenin", though he has never been known as such in Russia.
I see a couple of problems with this paragrpah.
As noted in Robert Service's biography, Lenin, along with most Russian revolutionaries at the time, used dozens of pseudonyms and stories about the significance of the name are probably apocryphal.
The last sentence is not even arguably true, though. Nikolai Lenin was the original pseudonym. I've removed that sentence accordingly.
::I've tried to tidy this up.  Previously there were two contradictory and apparently erroneous explanations of the name in the article.  Clearly there is a reference to Lena.  
::On the topic of Nikolai.  (Reference to Old Nick and Machiavelli??) Lenin certainly signed off as "N Lenin" - but this is explained in "Old Talk" above as meaning "name". But I have found a 1918 article by American Communist John Reed calling Lenin Nikolai.  Certainly he is usually called Vladimir Lenin, and only the American Far Right calls him anything different now.--Jack Upland 23:43, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pseudonym 

message: It appears this may have been already debated upon. However Lenin was never "leader" of Russia, nor was he ever leader of the party. The head of the government at the time was probably Rykov, though this may need to be checked. But I tell it was never Lenin! Lenin is only considered leader of the party through his sheer influence, but as it has been previously said, he was never dictatorial and often had to fight massively for change example the New Economic Policy. Therefore I think that it should be removed that Lenin had a predecessor or was leader at all of Russia or the Communist Party.
:Yes he was de-facto overall leader, by a common understanding. Please provide references about other opinions. 
:Although a significant correction is due: he was leader of the Soviet Russia, which at times was but a tiny fraction of Russian Empire. mikka (t) 22:55, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leadership 

message: This article was included in :Category:Russian nobility. I can't find any indication in the article that Lenin was a noble, so I have removed this category. Please add it back if I am mistaken. Pburka 20:53, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nobility 

message: Is anyone against? Ultramarine 19:47, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not approve until the other side in the late war actually edits, or there is consensus on this talk page - neither of which has happened. Septentrionalis 16:53, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of Two-version template

message: The reasons for the deaths in the Soviet Union is because of scarcity and the deaths during the Russian Civil War. It would be very hasty to blame the Civil War on the Bolsheviks because Bolsheviks because it wasn't like the Bolsheviks were fighting the themselves, they were fighting an armed uprising of the White Russians. 
The famines were caused by scarcity which in turn were caused by two things:
 
A) The workers' revolution failed to spread internationally and Socialism like any other political ideology (eg. Capitalism, Fuedalism) has to expand to survive.
and
B) The country the Proletariet (working class) and the Bolsheviks (workers' representatives) inherited was a very backwards country.
Both of these things were way out of the Bolsheviks control.
*Chapter 1 of The Revolution Betrayed by Leon Trotsky
*Chapter 2 of The Revolution Betrayed by Leon Trotsky
User:Leon Trotsky 14:10 30 August 2005
::You might find this interesting . Ultramarine 00:43, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Leon, also, the United States, Japan, France and England sent troops into Russia to fight the Red Army.  These actions prolonged the civil war-- causing much more famine-- something to this day looked down upon by russians.--So Hungry 23:22, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reason for ''Scarcity'' in the Soviet Union 

message: This criticism sections is unusually high on the ToC, it is written by various wikipedians righting their own prose, and not actual critics... This section should be broght to a higher quality. First of all, the article is about Lenin, if criticism section is in there it must be about the subject of the article (Lenin), not "Lenin's Regime". Second of all, it is incredidbly ridiculous to let wikipedians right their own prose and use it as criticisms... all criticisms must come from critics, not wikipedians and ofcourse not Lenin himself! There are tons of past and contemporary critics of Lenin so we shouldn't have any problem finding sources...
Proposals:
*First Proposal:
# Title of section "Criticisms of Lenin" or "Critics of Lenin"
# Move the section to its an appropriate place (ie: the bottom, like most criticism sections.)
# Rewrite, adding actual criticms of Lenin by past and present critics.
-or-
* Secpond Proposal: Remove this section alltogether if nobody can agree on nuetrality.  However, if we can can give this Lenin article a good criticisms section (there are many critics out there that should be represented) then there shouldn't be any NPOV disputes.  Otherwise, if we can't come to a conclusion, why even bother to have a section which is of poor quality and is highly disputed?
And here are some criticisms of Lenin someone forwared to me... And, there are also many more out there from credible and contemporary sources too:
* 1905 - Written by Leon Trotsky before he was a supporter of Lenin
* Organanizational Question on Russian Social Democracy - Written by Rosa Luxembourg
* The National Question - also by Rosa Luxembourg
* The Russian Revolution - again by Rosa Luxembourg
* My Dissillusionment in Russia - Written by Emma Goldman
* The Dictatorship of the Proletariet - Written by Karl Kautsky
* Terrorism and Communism - Written by Karl Kautsky
* Social Democracy versus Communism - Written by Karl Kautsky--So Hungry 03:10, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  criticisms 

message: There is a great hole in the article in regards to his involvement in bringing the Bolshevik party to power, etc - it basically jumps from before the revolution to his death.  Having just taken a Soviet History course, it seems to me a lot more content could (and should) be added in regards to this period, as it is basically that time period that makes him notable to history......DonaNobisPacem 18:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Missing chunk is work of vandals. restored. mikka (t) 00:43, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Muchos better.....DonaNobisPacem 01:23, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lacking a big chunk..... 

message: Lenin sent a telegram to order the murder of the young lady shown in this photograph. This is an integral part of his totally ruthless and sick character, and should be mentioned in this article.   Wallie 15:24, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Father of this young lady ordered to shoot quite a few thousand people who protested against their brutal treatment at factories and Siberia mines. The prety young lady herself had a nasty habit to whip her servants and will surely grow into a malicious bitch. Have you never read about slaughtering royal families for political reasons? mikka (t) 17:04, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, one can always find a case for the defense. However, I would not like to die the way she did, and believe she did not deserve it. Whether or not political, it is still murder. Wallie 21:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So Roosevelt was ruthless and sick when he ordered to nuke Hiroshima, with thousands of young ladies. Or they were not ladies? They were probably yellow japs. And look who is here on the pic: pretty white princess, right from a fairy tale. That's why you are worried about her, but not about Lena massacre or Bloody Sunday, yes?. mikka (t) 22:03, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Roosevelt was very sick at the time. In fact he was dead. (Truman gave the order CPMcE 17:39, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anastasia's Murder 

message: The further reading section seems a bit too long and unweildy.  Would anyone with a familiarity of these texts mind paring it down a bit?--TheGrza 08:39, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Further Reading section

message: Soviet icon Lenin died of syphilis-experts say
this statement
:Further research was continued by the Soviet team, but the work on Lenin's brain was no longer advertised. It has been suggested that one of the reasons for this was that evidence for neurosyphilis may have been discovered in the tissues of his brain, which may have contributed to his strokes and possibly even maddness during his life.
could someone cite sources? i've done a little historical research on the subject of lenins brain study and have found nothing containing the term "neurosyphilis", and nothing relating this to madness or strokes.
:It's been talked about forever -- see, e.g., http://poxblog.typepad.com/poxblog/2004/06/the_enigma_of_l.html . Nothing conclusive that I know of, though. Ahasuerus 12:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Lenin's brain study accurate?

message: Removing Lenin's "Lies become Truth" quote for two reasons: 
1. Generally, this quote is merely attributed to him.  There appears to be no evidence available
to determine the issue of whether he is in fact the originator.   At the very least, no evidence 
has been provided in the article.
2. It appears out of context.  Even if Lenin were the originator, the context of the quote is 
unknown, and not provided.  In particular, it is unknown if Lenin intended this comment to be
descriptive or prescriptive, i.e. a statement of how things are, or an endorsement of fabrication.
Juxtaposing this quote with his early study of propaganda methods implies a link that may
never have been intended by Lenin.  If you have evidence that Lenin said this as a justification
to fabricate propaganda, please provide it.  Otherwise, the quote as presented could mislead.
:agreed, the quote is entirely out of context with a very clear bias. There is specific space in Lenin's Wikiquote page for attributed quotes such as this. Solidusspriggan 09:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lenin's "Truth" quote 

message: Is it safe to say that Lenin had no Russian ancestory? The article seems to imply that he was Kalmyk, German and Jewish.
:Please learn that in many cases ethnicity is not defined by genes. Anyway, it is not safe even in eugenics sence. How do you knwo that his calmuk grandma was not humped by a cossack? Think about all this branching in time and you will understand that the question is rather nonsensial. Even Jews, despite their strict lineage laws, are mixture of all caucasians in the world plus some arabs and moors. mikka (t) 02:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Russian Ancestory

message: Please provide the citation supporting the info marked by the "fact" template.--AndriyK 10:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV in "Early life" 

message: If criticisms are to be inserted, I strongly suggest that they be inserted in the already existing section about Lenin's time in power, rather than in a separate section of their own. They are not criticisms of Lenin's entire activity, but criticisms of a specific period in his life. On a somewhat related note, page attributions should be inserted as  rather than visible text that disrupts the flow of the article. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 00:47, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A person is not an ideology: maintain chronological biography 

message: Do not delete sourced material you do not like. Wikipedia is not your soapbox! If you think that the information should be presented somehow else, then makes changes, do not delete material for ideological reasons. Ultramarine 04:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And you have not given any good explanation for deletion of well-sourced material. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. It is not a propaganda vehicle. Ultramarine 05:56, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

text: If you have any good reasons for deleting well-referenced material, state them here. Ultramarine 06:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of sourced material

message: I'm going to add a cartoon picture of Lenin from the era that doesn't portray him in such a dark light as these other photographs. (Kozlovesred 02:02, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: pictures

message: Now I'm not going to go changing anything in the article about Lenin's supposed syphilis.  But what I have to say is: so what?  Revolutionaries can't have sex?  Inessa Armand was quite the looker, I say! Kozlovesred 07:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Syphilis 

message: It has come to my attention that this talk page is excessively long and cluttered, I created a Talk:Vladimir Lenin/Archive1 page but I really don't know if there is some process for archiving or if I should just "move" the current talk page to that and this one will be clean now? If anyone knows please chime in. Solidusspriggan 00:13, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: =talk page archive

message: Substituted at 20:58, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment