Talk:Melencolia I

message: The article notes "The unbalanced scale despite lack of contained substance". The scale looks balanced to me. Also, you can't see what's in the bottom of the tray. Is this referenced anywhere other than wikipedia?
I agree: the scale is balanced. It might appear unbalanced to someone unfamiliar with the conventions of linear perspective, but if you look at at the engraving closely you'll notice that the balance indicator is pointing straight up.--BWOgilvie (talk) 22:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unbalanced Scale? 

message: → Associative Magic Square
→ How many magic squares are there?
Dürers square is an associative magic square. The binary representation of this square is as follows:
{| border="1" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="7" align="left" style="background:efefef; color:black"	 	      	                   	 	
{| border="1" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" align="center" style="background:efefef; color:black;	 	      	                   	 	
a div 8 = 1        	→	 	a div 8 = 0        	→	 
(a mod 8) div 4 = 1	→	 	(a mod 8) div 4 = 0	→	 
(a mod 4) div 2 = 1	→	 	(a mod 4) div 2 = 0	→	 
a mod 2 = 1        	→	 	a mod 2 = 0        	→	 
You can see that each of the colors occur only two times in each row, each column and in each of the diagonals. If we look at the definition of an associative magic square we can see that for every cell a all colors differ in the symmetrical cell of cell a:
a) changing "a div 8 = 1 with "a mod 2 = 1" and vice versa would give the square:
15	 2	 8	 5
 4	 9	 3	14
 1	12	 6	11
10	 7	13	 0
If we "change" only the weights for the binary representation we will have 4! permutations and the values "0" and "15" will be always fixed.
b) changing "a mod 2 = 1 with "a mod 2 = 0" and vice versa would give the square:
14	 3	 0	13
 5	 8	11	 6
 9	 4	 7	10
 2	15	12	 1
We can see that doing this there are 16 times more possibilities. Together we would have 4!*16 squares. The number considering the Frénicle standard form is 48. (It can be seen easily that all 8 transitions - rotations and transpositions are represented in the "pattern"). Gangleri | [ Th] | T 21:33, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's a gnomon meant to attract the influences of Jupiter as a cure for the Saturnian melancholy that afflicts those lost in contemplation.Inijones (talk) 02:59, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  unique pattern for associative magic squares of order 4 

message: Albrecht Dürer's engraving Melancholia I (originally known by Dürer as Melencolia I) is an allegorical depiction of the symptoms of melancholy, now better known as depression.
what does it mean : "known by Durer as melencolia"? Researchers apparently agree that Durer was aware that such a spelling is neither german nor latin. Also "allegorical depiction of symptoms": perhaps it would be better to leave that to the care of the medical profession and to say something about symbols.
My redaction:
Albrecht Durer's engraving known as Melancholia I is an allegorical composition which supports various interpretations. The title comes from the deviantly spelled word 'melencolia' appearing within the engarving itself.  The most obvious interpretation takes the image to be about the depressive or melancholy state and accordingly explains various elements of the picture. Among them most conspicuous are:...
Added a link to D. Finkelstein's impressive exegesis.
www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/finkelstein/DurerCode050524.pdf
al 09:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Written anew

message: Shouldn't we use the name Dürer gave his own work? Aleta 04:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An incorrect spelling even if it is a common spelling, is still an incorrect spelling —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.198.240.254 (talk) 09:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

text: It is not an incorrect spelling; it is an archaic spelling. There is a big difference. The title is Melencolia I. That's what Dürer named it and that's what it even says on the engraving. I requested a move at WP:RM because it looks silly right now.
Reginmund 18:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Why the modernized spelling?

message: The Hebrew version contains an illustration of the famous Magic Square which appears in the engraving. The illustration was done by me (he.User:Noon is my User Page), and is released to the Public Domain. --85.250.24.90 11:30, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Who asked for a fricking Hebrew version? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.198.240.254 (talk) 09:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: you're a fricking idiot  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inijones (talk • contribs) 03:04, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hebrew version 

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
Melancholia I → Melencolia I — The title is Melencolia I, it even says it on the engraving its self. —Reginmund 21:13, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Support - It says clearly on the engraving Melencolia I. It is not a spelling error as unlike how obscure editor without an account quoted. Reginmund 21:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article has been renamed  as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 17:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Support - It says clearly on the engraving Melencolia I. It is not a spelling error as unlike how obscure editor without an account quoted. Reginmund 21:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>
This article has been renamed  as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 17:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: The article says the piece was lost in a fire. But it's a print, surely there must be other copies remaining? Can this please be clarified?--24.86.252.26 20:20, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: correct - now removed. There are a fairly large number of copies, though few really early/good ones. Johnbod 21:17, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  lost? 

message: Is the claw hammer on the left noteable?
the page on hammers say so but its not mentioned.(82.3.40.49 (talk) 22:49, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hammer time. 

message: I haven't been able to find anything about anyone noticing 'The All-Seeing Eye' that you can see when you look at the picture when its not in its full size. If you look in the upper left hand corner of the picture when its at a smaller size you can see the pyramid shape or possibly even the shape of one of the sides of the 'truncated rhombohedron' (like the shape of the rock right below)made with the 'rainbow' & the 'comet' or 'beacon' in the picture, the chimera carrying the flag with the title "Melencolia I" written on it is the eye. & if you even flip the picture counter-clockwise you can see the pyramid again in the same spot except for now the 'comet' or 'beacon' is the tip of the pyramid casting a ray of light downward towards the bottom of the pyramid. has this been noticed before??Lissalee06 (talk) 00:02, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  'The All-Seeing Eye' in Melencolia I? 

message: The Durer solid reminds me of a medieval or Renaissance shield, especially painted pavises like crossbowmen used.
Also, Durer's mother had just died in 1513, so could the female figure of Melencolia have represented her spirit?
Miklamar (talk) 07:27, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Durer solid 

message: For reference,possible related ideas drawn upon- Metaphor of the sun, Empyrean, Nemesis (mythology) - "Nemesis , winged balancer of life , dark-faced goddess, daughter of justice".
Fortuna"Truly,when in the place of work,idleness,in place of the spirit of measure and equity,caprice and pride invade, fortune is changed as with morality" , Consolation of philosophy , Tyche (the ladder?) "Fortune favours the bold" but Melencolia is burdened by doubt? time? tools available yet unused? Tools of reason or fortunes wheel,Rota Fortunae  blocking the metaphorical light of imagination or Plato's idea of God/ The Ultimate Good, also see David Hume- "Acting from our experience is how we should operate". Mural crown, Rostrata
, Destiny, Pythagoras, Plato  — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnsonL623 (talk • contribs) 07:15, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mythology/ Philosophy 

message: Has no one ever wondered why the "female" has a manly body shape ? I mean just look at the body as a whole, that's a man's body, in dress-like clothing. Is there any official source that can confirm and back up the perception of this being a female ? //KungenMartin 9 May 2012 at 06:38 p.m (CEST)  —Preceding undated comment added 16:38, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The male form of the female's body 

message: I'm no sure if the engraving dimensions are 31 cm × 26 cm (12 in × 10 in) as is claimed here and in other wikis, because the relation H:W doesn't agree with the image size in pixels neither with other wikis that have different dimensions.
I have looking for other sources and I find that maybe the actual dimensions are 9-1/2 x 7-3/8 in (24 x 18.5 cm) []. 
--Tecsie (talk) 22:39, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Other source in Germany claims that actual dimensions are 24 x 18.8 cm. This source is the Staatliche Kunsthalle (State Art Gallery)  and maybe they have the work in their collection[] --Tecsie (talk) 23:21, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Actual Engraving Dimensions 

message: removed some indian miniature made after Dolor by Raphael Sadeler I; see please http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/90070050?rpp=20&pg=1&ft=Dolor+Raphael+Sadeler&pos=191.92.179.172 (talk) 21:15, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: A proper removal I think. A diligent person can tease out a coincidence of this type from any given set of numbers or letters. Ewulp (talk) 23:43, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed 

message: Strangely missing but so obvious that it ought to be mentioned in the article is the autobiographical content.  The two winged figures, being marked as angels, represent the artist's soul.  The adult is crowned in laurels, as was Dürer, a celebrated artist in his lifetime.  Likewise, the child is a diligent student, as was Dürer.  The asterism has been identified by Ursula Marvin, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge MA, as the Ensisheim meteorite of November 7,1492.  As was discovered in 1960, Dürer painted the explosion that occurred over Upper Alsace on the back of a small wooden panel with Saint Jerome penitent on the front (Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge UK).  Dürer, age 21, was in Basel at the time, 38 km to the SSE of Ensisheim, close to the SE to NW flight path (Chr. Cokinos) and apparently saw the skyburst.  The year 1514 is the year his mother died age 63, an event which greatly troubled him, as he himself wrote (Portrait of the Artist's Mother at the Age of 63).  His own age of 43 that year is the number 34 of the magic square with figures reversed. hgwb (talk) 17:04, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autobiographical Interpretation 

message: Why the article does not say anything about location of this engraving? Is it exposed in the museum or kept in private collection? Maxal (talk) 00:56, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Location 

message: The middle two columns contains numbers with the mere difference of one (3|2, 10|11, 6|7, 15|14). This is peculiar and possibly unique to the magic square arrangement that contains the middle 1514, which links the left and right middle columns via coincidence with the year of the engraving.  These pairs of numbers also contains "1011", something that in binary represents the number 11. This row is also horizontally symmetrical ignoring the 5: 1, 0, 1, 1, and 8 (2^3) can be flipped without changing their reading, which is possibly why the 5 is flipped also. Given the inclusion of 1011, the magic square might be a predictive representation of tape memory, wherein four punchholes would offer 4 bits of information (providing the maximum number of 15), or possibly emphasizing 8 bits of information (providing a maximum number of 255), since the two middle columns of four numbers are linked. Dürer may be predicting the use of binary in computers of the future.  The five might be flipped to represent the "flipped bits" that occurs in the Ones' complement binary system. The flipped bits of five (0101) is ten (1010). In 4-bit Two's complement, 1010 is negative six. This may explain the impression of a six behind the flipped five. In this way, Durer may have predicted the use of  Two's complement in modern computing. Additionally, making each number zero-based by subtracting one from each number then converting to binary gives a mirrored image with flipped bits.  This research is public domain. -- 24.255.249.157 (talk) 16:25, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Binary 

message: If you overlap the head of the unicorn in The Unicorn is Found (from The Hunt of the Unicorn tapestries) with the head of the dog found in Melancolia I, the compass in Melancolia I is roughly at the same vicinity of the deer's antlers.  It is worth noting both artworks have an inexplicably reversed or upside-down letter or alphabet: The "5" in Durer's Magic Squares and the "E" in the Unicorn Tapestry's initials. This research is public domain. 24.255.255.94 (talk) 01:00, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unicorn Tapestry, 1495-1505 

message: Are we going to tackle Modern Painters? Try here, searching on Albert. Johnbod (talk) 13:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ruskin and the labor which is crowned with fire, and has the wings of the bat. 

message: Although much has been written, much is in German. There are surprisingly few journal articles in English that are directly relevant. Panofsky says plenty in English, and others review him in English; but they don't seem to review much else. Weighting therefore becomes a problem. English books on Durer must have more to say, but I've reached the end of my access and interest. Further English sources:
* Whitney Davis, A General Theory of Visual Culture (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2011). "One can hardly be unsympathetic to the aims of this book, and it offers some exemplary readings: its comparisons of Panofsky, Walter Benjamin, and Aby Warburg on Dürer's Melencolia I, for instance". (Review. Matthew Rampley; "Rethinking Visual Theory", Oxford Art Journal, Volume 35, Issue 3, 1 December 2012, Pages 473–476, https://doi.org/10.1093/oxartj/kcs029 )
I would like to get into the lead that the word "melencolia" didn't mean then what it means now. Also as are we placing too much emphasis on the word - Dürer signed and dated the etching, but certainly did not name it. Deffering to Mr. Riggr the Well Read and Wise. Ceoil the Mad (talk) 02:07, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  other sources