Talk:Viol/Archive 1

message: Should the modern double bass be mentioned as the only surviving direct descendent of the viola da gamba family?  I realise that the double bass viol is mentioned, but there is no link with the modern viol.
Fatboy06 21:35, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It certainly should, and considering the size of the article I'm somewhat surprised that it isn't. I lack the time to do something at the moment, I'm afraid, but do go ahead and put it in. EldKatt (Talk) 22:04, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You might want to say "only member of the viol family that remained in continuous use," or something similar. "Surviving" makes it sound as if the others are dead, which they are not -- they have been revived! 71.9.52.42 08:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

text: There is a separate Wikipedia article on the violone. I don't know if it really merits its own article as it is usually just the largest member of the viol family (though I have seen some instruments which seem to be hybrids with, for instance, double bass-style tuning machines). Bluewave 10:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Double bass 

message: I think the composers for the viol are not mentioned enough in this article. Would anyone object to a composers section? A list can be found here. 
:Makes sense to me. Mak (talk) 02:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You can all go check out what I have added about the composers for the viol at my sandbox. If you have any suggestions or comments, feel free to add them. DeineMutter 22:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Composers for the viol 

message: the article states that these two families are only distantly related, but they seem (to a bystander, anyway) to be essentially the same instruments. why are they classified as being so different? how did they evolve from each other? 67.172.61.222 17:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The violin family evolved from the Medieval rebec (which in turn derives from Middle Eastern bowed instruments) via the lira da braccio and was essentially originally a high, squeaky instrument for solo or duo performance.  It has a rounded back.  The deeper-sounding viol clearly evolved from the vihuela, a plucked guitar-like instrument with a flat back.  The construction, sound, playing technique, method of holding, bowing, etc. and number of strings are different.  And it was first used in "consort" (groups with viols of different sizes).  I think the articles already explain most of this.  Badagnani 18:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  violin family 

message: While we're at it; there's another entry in the article I'd like to see revised, this one . . . "Similar Names: The Viola da gamba is occasionally confused with the Viola, an instrument in the Violin family."  The confusion is actually reversed. Violin family "violas" came way after the original late 15th cent Italian "Viola", which included the viola da mano and viola da gamba (plucked and bowed viola guitars.) The names viola (Italy) and vihuela (Spain) were synonymous and interchangeable. Vihuela and Viola are thus both synonymous names for the plucked guitar-like instrument. Viola da gamba, viola cum arculo, vihuela de arco, are some (true) alternate names for viols.  Both names vihuela and viola were fairly generic in usage, even to include early violins (viola da braccio).  It is common enough and justifiable for players of viola da gamba to call their instruments "violas", and to call themselves "violists". That the "alto violin" eventually usurped the name "viola" is unfortunate and is more the cause of any current confusion. Other names for viols include: "viole" or violle (French),  gambo (plural of gamba), and a few others we could hunt down. Cyclocifra 23:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see a problem with adding a paragraph to this effect.  The thing is, the viola (alto violin) is hugely more common in the present day than the gamba, so we have to operate from this perspective.  I agree that it's unfortunate that the viola (which was my second instrument) has usurped the name of this earlier, noble instrument.  Badagnani 01:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alrighty, will do then. I understand what you're re saying re modern usage and default associations. But just so that we can give a little history of the terms, and also honor contemporary viol players their right to call their instruments and themselves by their rightful names, etc. Who knows, in time the default associations might expand to where they probably should be. Cyclocifra 01:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Did Italian gambists ever say "I play the viola," or would that have created confusion.  English gambists clearly could say they played the viol or French players could say they played the viole (as in the Marais "Pieces de viole"), but in Italy and Spain the terms "viola" and "vihuela" without qualifier could be confused.  Badagnani 02:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to assume they did. Paolo Pandolfo, present day Italian gamba virtuoso does (call his instrument his "viola"), and he's "the man" in my book ;-)  Cyclocifra 03:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I imagine they would have used the appropriate qualifiers if present company demanded it. Yet, it does remain a source of great confusion to this day, trying to interpret period documents and often being unsure _which_  specific instrument is being referred to . Cyclocifra 03:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Do you know the Carl Orff De Temporum Fine Comoedia?  Its lovely finale calls for 4 viols, played by Kuijken, et al.  It's worth a listen as an early example of 20th century gamba revival as manifested in contemporary composition (a subject I wrote about in a big article in the Winter 2003-2004 issue of Early Music America).  Badagnani 03:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I don't know the piece. It'll be intersting to find out if they were in fact playing viols. If you find that they were viols let me know and I'll get a copy. I'll try to get a hold of your article someday too.  Cyclocifra 06:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm pretty certain they are viols, played in canon, in the last part, "Con sublima spiritualità." It's composed in consort music style. The Deutsche Grammophon recording of the work was recorded at the Salzburger Festspiele 1973 with Sigiswald and Wieland Kuijken, Adelheid Glatt, and Sara E. Cunningham, "Violen-Quartett," which is translated (probably wrongly) into English and French in the booklet as "Viola quartet"/"Quatuor d'altos."  The track is only 5 minutes but it's worth getting the CD of the admittedly not very good work just for the track.  Badagnani 06:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ok, thanks for the info. I often get CD's for just one or two outstanding viol tracks, so no prob there. Cyclocifra 22:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: My favorite gamba player so far is Hille Perl (her Sainte-Colombe CD is one of the best CDs I've ever heard), but I'll take a listen to Pandolfo.  I think I have at least one CD by him.  Badagnani 03:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have only one of Hille's CD's, Doulce Memoire, which I like, but  I have all but two of Paolo's I think -- he is just freaking astounding. If you get a couple few of his CD's over time, put this one high on the list, his rendition of the Bach cello suites performed on solo bass viol (double CD). His liner notes from that  CD are a must read too "An imagined dialogue between a viol and cello" (which you can get a PDF of at Glossa's web site too). His Forqueray is fab too (they're all great, hard to pick favs with him, they're all must-haves) Cyclocifra 06:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Interesting; one wouldn't think the gamba suited to the cello suites.  I'll look for these.  Badagnani 06:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hold on to your chair if you get the Suite's ;-) I made a text file of those liner notes a while back, here http://www.TheCipher.com/PaoloPandolfo_Dialogue_Viol_Cello_Bach6CelloSuites_TranscribedForViol.txt Cyclocifra 06:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Interesting that he would have chosen the medium of the dialogue, so popular during the time period the viol was at its height, as with the works of Giordano Bruno.  Badagnani 06:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ya, he's an artist of high order through and through. I must thank you, by the way, for making my day (last night).  As big a fan as I am of his work, I hadn't known he began on Guitar and Double-Bass (verses the more typical violin-family to viols track pushed during the 20th century or the first couple generations of viol revivalists). Given that he is, in my estimation, the single greatest living master, this goes far in confirming my belief that viols _belong_ to guitarists, players of fretted fourths string instruments that is, the missing half of our family and expressive vehicles, etc. I've spent the better part of the last two years focused on the guitar/viol connections, and this last revelation was all the icing on the cake, additional inspiration and validation, one could ever have hoped for -- being a guitarist myself, and in love with viols, i.e. bowed guitars. It was just too ironic, this late revelation.  ;-) Cyclocifra 23:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Names

message: In the U.S., Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. applies to most of the images we're talking about, "exact photographic copies of public domain images could not be protected by copyright because the copies lack originality.", so 2-dimensional copies of PD paintings are PD in the US. Mak (talk) 00:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Mak. That's encouraging. I think I still might have to leave it to you guys to determine just how the specifics of this ruling apply to specific images we/you'all might like to add to the page. I believe lots of iconography is a good thing generally, but I take it you don't, or not on Wikipedia?  Is there a particular dimension that any substituted or added images should adhere to? If anyone else here, already familiar with Wiki formatting, wants to do the swapping, adding, scaling, layout, that's fine with me -- Badagnani would probably only have to come back and clean up after me anyway ;-)  I mainly wanted to table the idea, talk a little about iconography in general, and point out that pile of potential other image options we have available now. I can't guarantee how much ongoing commitment to the page I might be able to offer or contribute, even this little bit was spontaneous and out of the blue. If someone were ask me something like, for instance, "if we could only have two or three early representative images which would you suggest", I could probably help in that regard. For example, few people, even guitarists, have ever seen any of the waist-cut _plucked_ vihuela/viola. If one is hoping to help people see, understand, believe, the connections, one picture of one of those instruments seems almost mandatory. Seeing is believing, and iconography is the instrument of faith. Let me know, you'all. Cyclocifra 02:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Btw, I've been wondering about this for a while, what do you make of the bowing technique of the angel on the Isenheim altarpiece image? It seems a bit fanciful to me. Mak (talk) 05:55, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It does look odd, that's for sure, but I'm prepaired to believe almost anything these days. Playing postures and bow holds were far more varied in the16th century than is usually reported, of that I'm sure. For example, I eventually found almost three dozen pictures similar to the Veronese Cana "guitar-hold", and half of those are bowed from below as well (Veronese is bowing from above while using a guitar-hold). I've got another dozen pictures of people playing viols kneeling on one knee. Dozens of images of what appear to be small (and not so small) fretted viols played on the arm (da braccio) which really throws a wrench into the notions of  what "viola da braccio" really meant or included. The Isenheim gal is using a pretty short bow, so maybe someone could pull it off without poking themselves in the side, God knows ;-) Cyclocifra 06:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't forget the Swedish nyckelharpa's playing posture.  Badagnani 07:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right. That's very much like what I'm calling the "from below" guitar or lap hold. Here's an English picture, c.1598, showing that combined viol and bow hold. This one too looks almost as odd or contorted as the Isenheim hold, but I have more like it. Cyclocifra 07:46, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: copyrights of images