Talk:American football/Archive 2

message: I saved the page from some loser who put "The bears will roll over everyone in their way mother ******"--Nytemunkey 20:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: vandalism

message: What is everyone's opinion on making an article just for positions in football, break it down by offense, defense, and special teams. Also have diagrams and maybe even discuss players that are in the hall of fame for certain positions. --Stang281 21:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Positions

message: I just want to say I'm really glad that the term American football
is now replacing National Football League when it comes to identifying football players or teams on their wiki pages. It presents a more worldly view on the subject rather than just identifying the rank of the team or player in terms of what league they play in. It's more important to identify the sport they play first. Jimmy Mac 04:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification

message: "Contemporary football players are larger than their predecessors of only 30 or 40 years ago. It is quite normal, for instance, for all the members of the offensive line of a major college or professional team to weigh more than 300 pounds (136 kg.), whereas in the 1960s linemen who weighed only 270 pounds were common."
If that were the case - Steroids being the cause for size increase - nearly anybody could play football and scouting NFL players wouldn't be a multi-million dollor trade. Players from the previous generations where steroids were legal cannot be considered relevant to players in professional leagues today. Furthermore the knowledge of nutrition was terrible in the 1960's and is no way comparable to the knowledge of nutrition and excersise today. I will request that section to be removed or re-written.
:You are welcome to rewrite the section as you see fit. -- Mwalcoff 00:48, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: *Ooh... someone's upset. Is that the 'roids talking? Deletions reverted. 86.128.188.154 23:19, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

text: *You should refute these claims on this page to allow the community to come to agreement rather than deleting sections wholesale. That section did not read as especially inaccurate to me, so it's not as if it were vandalism that should be reverted without discussion. However, the unsigned rant above does sound inaccurate. Make your case and let others decide. --Tysto 21:18, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

text: * You say you're not devoted, yet all but two of the contributions under your IP address of 71.10.17.198 have been American football related. That seems devoted to me. The sections shouldn't be removed just because you want to put a gloss on your beloved sport. 86.128.188.154 01:16, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Thanks. Feel free to improve it--I just thought I'd give you guys a starting point. Matt Yeager 20:26, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Football And Drugs

message: An anonymous user from the Netherlands reverted my previous changes, so I thought I would provide my rationale for them here, giving him or her a chance to defend the revert.
1. The sentence:
"The ball can be advanced by carrying the ball, throwing it, or a lateral handoff, from one teammate to the other"
is gramatically inconsistent. "Carrying" and "throwing" are gerunds, so the third thing in the list should be as well. 
2 The sentence:
"Points can be scored in a variety of ways, including carrying the ball over the goal line, throwing the ball to another player past the goal line (known as a forward pass) or even kicking the ball held by another player on the ground through the goalposts (also known as uprights), which is also called a field goal. The team with more points when time has expired wins."
is problematic in several respects. First, a "forward pass" is any pass thrown forward, not just one into the end zone. Secondly, there is no reason for the word "even" there, since it's hardly a surprise. Third, the part of the sentence about kicking is too long and confusing; a link to "placekicking" is preferable. Four, "uprights" are just the sides of the goalposts. Finally, the last sentence should be in the present simple to match the rest of the section.
3. "Outside of the United States, the sport is referred to as American football, ameriball, or sometimes 'Grid-iron' to differentiate it from the more familiar rugby football and the very different game called football which dominates around the rest of the world."
Canadians don't call it "American football." (If they needed to differentiate American football from its Canadian counterpart, they would say "NFL football" or "NCAA football" or whatever.) "Ameriball" has only about 120 Google hits. Rugby is only more familiar in countries that play rugby. Finally, soccer does not dominate in the entire rest of the world. It's not that popular in India, for example.
Unless our friend in Holland can argue why my edit is unnecessary, I will unrevert it.
Mwalcoff 19:04, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I travelled around a bit much in the military and I am an avid football fan.  I never once heard it referred to as Grid-Iron - even among the Aussie Navy that I worked with.  The Royal British Marines called it "American Football" when being polite, but normally called it "Footican" to be rude.  In rare cases, "American Football" was shortened to "Ameriball".  However, those who liked to shorten it like that would actually say "merb'l" (like gerbil) as a 1.5 syllabel word, not "A-mer-i-ball".  However, I'm sure it is called everything from "yankball" to "that stupid sport they play over in the U.S.", but that doesn't mean we have to include every nickname for the sport in the article. Kainaw 19:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We got rid of "yankball," and that has far more Google hits than "ameriball," even though people who say "yankball" wouldn't talk about it much, either. Maybe all of these synonyms could be fit into the article Football (word). -- 70.27.57.22 00:06, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I like that idea of a little alternative names section with a bit if information about where they are used and all that.  --Josquius 11:58, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert of my edit 

message: I have removed the line about powder-puff football for two reasons:
# We don't explain what it is or link to an article that does.
# It is a very minor phenomenon in the scheme of things.
If you want to write about powder-puff article, why not start an article on it and then link to it in the "Professional, college, and other leagues" section?
Mwalcoff 00:29, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Powder-puff football 

message: I have shortened the section on safeties by eliminating the part about strategy, which I think is inappropriate for the paragraph. I put a message on User:Cshay's talk page to try to work out something he would accept but did not hear back from him.
I also removed the acreage from the field dimensions; I don't think it's necessary. -- Mwalcoff 22:43, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Both edits are good.  Far too much of this article is wasted translating measurements.  Nobody cares that a yard is three feet when playing football.  The point is that you need to move 10 of them to get a first down - regardless of how many feet or meters a yard is.  Also, there is an NFL article for NFL rules and strategies.  Too much of it gets added to this article. --Kainaw (talk) 23:25, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Safeties 

message: #Should we really list some common penalties in the Penalties section? I suppose it would be helpful for people to know about them, but we list them before we even list the positions. Should we put the list in a separate article?
#The positions section has gotten really complicated. Do we need to metion the difference between a flanker and split end? Most fans don't even know the difference. -- Mwalcoff 00:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My thoughts:
#Yep, definitely. Watch a football game for a quarter, and you're definitely going to see several of the yellow flags. We've got to tell people about them. I wouldn't argue with the section being moved down, though.
#I think we should mention the difference. The rarity of knowledge has little correlation with its value. It's an article about American football, and as such we should have a bunch of information about it. Why not make the article as full as it can be? (I know that you're just using that as an example, but so am I. Rephrasing, sorting, moving to daughter articles (to a limited extent) is one thing--deletion of information is another.) Matt Yeager 04:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, certainly the difference between flanker and split end should be somewhere, but should it be in an introductory article? Or should it just be on the article on wide receivers and other daughter articles? (It should be noted anyway that the difference between X and Z receivers isn't as great as it used to be.) -- Mwalcoff 05:07, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two questions 

message: Little is said of referees/umpires/line judges, the distinctions between them, their duties and placement on the field, except occasionally in passing. It would be good to solidify that a bit. Also, a bit about challenges would be very helpful: the procedure of challenging a play, which plays can be challenged, official-initiated challenges, etc. And the playoff procedure should be addressed. Cheers all; nice work so far. !mAtt™ 19:03, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The goal of this article, I believe, is to be a simple introduction to the sport for people who don't know anything about it. I don't want to leave anything out, but I'd like to put all of those things you mentioned in second-level articles, such as Rules of American football. -- Mwalcoff 23:52, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Officials, challenges, playoffs?

message: The two images of the football stadiums, :Image:Cincinnati-paul-brown-stadium2.jpg and :Image:DSCN4567_clevelandbrownsstadium_e2.jpg are out of context on this page. I suggest they be removed. --Nv8200p talk 04:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images out of context

message: The "players" section was getting out of hand, so I moved all the detail to American football positions. The only things I took out of here that I didn't include on the new page were the descriptions of flankers and split ends and nickel, dime and rover backs. Those things are or can be explained on the pages about wide receivers and defensive backs.
I'm still concerned about the list of penalties. I don't think it makes sense to be talking about illegal contact and whatnot before we tell them what a wide receiver is. I think we ought to just tell them to go to American football rules or an article specifically on penalties if they want more information. -- Mwalcoff 01:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved positions detail 

message: As a naive Limey, I thought I'd come here to see if there are any Americans who could elaborate the sports franchising page? If you look at its Talk, you'll see that we would like it to be expanded so we can relate the few cases of what has been labeled 'franchising' in the UK to what franchising actually is. Basicially, I think the page could do with a history of how the practice developed, how popular it is and what relationship between club and league allows it. Cheers Robdurbar 13:55, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Sports franchising]]

message: Until recently, the article began "American football, known in the United States and Canada simply as 'football'".  Some misguided person changed that to just "United States" with the HTML comment viewable in the source that "the word 'football' in Canada means Canadian football", which simply isn't true.  I am Canadian, and when my friends and I talk about "football", we usually mean the NFL.  We don't qualify it at all.  The NFL is more popular than the CFL in Canada.  If you don't believe me, refer to the Association for Canadian Studies survey (PDF file).  If I were talking about Canadian football it would be clear from context; we don't qualify it either way.  I reverted the intro paragraph back to the way it was and added a note a little further along that "football" in Canada may refer to either of the two codes. 24.199.113.113 00:08, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Canadians don't call it "American football"

message: I have removed the "most especially" characterization of the popularity of high school football in texas.  As I understand it, there is no fair basis for claiming that high school football is more popular in texas than in any of the other listed states.
* I agree with this point. Until there is statistical proof, there is no need for this stereotype to be included. Tnek46 16:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I live in California, and high school football is immensly popular here as well. I don't think that there's any state in the nation where high school football isn't popular. -- R'son-W (speak to me/breathe) 21:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Texas and high school football

message: I needed some help with some articles on this subject and didn't see an obvious project page to put it on, so I'm putting the request here:  is a highschool IP which has been making a large number of vandal edits but some productive ones as well. Recently, a large number of edits have occured to articles about football players, especially draft prospects, and I don't know enough to judge whether or not the information contained in them are correct. If someone else would take a look it would be appreciated. Thanks. JoshuaZ 16:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help needed 

message: In this, the Candian Football article, and the Comparisons article, it is stated that Football was introduced to American by Canada.  This claim is unsourced and I have not been able to find any verification elsewhere on the internet.  Can this be sourced?  If not, it should be removed, because there are conflicting stories on the internet.
Jiggz84 05:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: I previously reverted a newly created section on the drop kick as a method of scoring field goals. This seems to me a topic obscure enough to warrant not being included in a introductory article on football. Drop kicks are mentioned briefly in the scoring section in this article, and given their rarity, that is the correct depth at which they chould be discussed in this article. The information was subsequently readded. Just looking to develop a consensus. --D-Rock (commune with D-Rock) 18:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're absolutely right. A big problem with this article is that new users keep adding stuff about things like drop kicks and one-point safeties that do not belong in an introductory article. Keep up the vigilance! -- Mwalcoff 23:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Drop kick

message: I removed the following from the paragraph about college football: " — which regularly sell out. Even high school football games can attract five-figure crowds, especially in football hotbeds like Alabama,  Pennsylvania, Nebraska, Ohio, North Carolina, Florida, Georgia and Texas. The weekly autumn ritual of college and high-school football — which includes marching bands, cheerleaders and parties (including the ubiquitous tailgate party) — is an important part of the culture in much of smalltown America"  There are no citations or references anywhere in this verbage and much of it, particularly the "football hotbeds" part, is POV.  --ElKevbo 22:47, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have partially reverted your elimination for now. With the exception of the ever-growing selection of states, there is nothing controversial about the paragraph. It would seem pedantic to cite official attendance figures here. Regarding the part about the impact of football and smalltown culture, this is not something you'll find studied scientifically, but it again is a no-brainer to anyone who has lived in a Midwestern factory town, for example. What should we do -- cite Friday Night Lights? I'm a big supporter of WP:CITE enforcement, but this is not the kind of thing that, IMO, requires a citation, since it is not really arguable. I have, however, kept out the mention of the individual "hotbeds," since every user seems to think his state is one. -- Mwalcoff 23:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit to college football paragraph 

message: "Tackleball" is not a synonym for American football. A Google search for "tackleball" comes up with only 572 hits. Most of the top hits are tongue-in-cheek suggestions from non-Americans about what the sport should be called. -- Mwalcoff 22:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Tackleball" 

message: Need a section on equipment etc. 66.90.182.183 01:27, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ball

message: Rephrased the 1869 soccer game as a parenthetical: it is worth mentioning because the Rutgers athletics website continues to describe it as the first American football game, but it does not belong ahead of the origins of American football in the Harvard-McGill game. Wakonda 20:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rutgers v. Princeton as the "first" game

message: Note: This article has a very small number of in-line citations for an article of its size and currently would not pass criteria 2b.
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 21:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Re-Review and In-line citations 

message: It's time for another rewrite after several months of complicating edits. Here is what I have to suggest. If no one objects, I'll go ahead and make the changes after a few days.
===Intro===
Eliminate the paranthetical clause in the first paragraph. Eliminate everything after "other games" in the second paragraph.
===Popularity===
Replace the first sentence with the simple "Football is the most-popular spectator sport in the United States." Move the sentence on NFL Europe to the end of the second-last paragraph. Eliminate the last sentence ("It is a long standing...") in the third paragraph.
----
Has anyone not noticed this line in the Outside of the United States section?
"mnay beleive the players to be weak themselves, owing to the pads which they where. Any comparison with rugby is totally false as rugby players and he game of rugby itself requires skills far greather than show evident in American football, without the help of large pads." 
This seems to violate NPOV. Just thought I'd point that out.
:It also violates English. But I don't see it in the article. Wahkeenah 22:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it when I saw it. -- Mwalcoff 22:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Kudos. Wahkeenah 22:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Sounds good. --SodiumBenzoate 02:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Simplification

message: Replace the first sentence with the simple "Football is the most-popular spectator sport in the United States." Move the sentence on NFL Europe to the end of the second-last paragraph. Eliminate the last sentence ("It is a long standing...") in the third paragraph.
----
Has anyone not noticed this line in the Outside of the United States section?
"mnay beleive the players to be weak themselves, owing to the pads which they where. Any comparison with rugby is totally false as rugby players and he game of rugby itself requires skills far greather than show evident in American football, without the help of large pads." 
This seems to violate NPOV. Just thought I'd point that out.
:It also violates English. But I don't see it in the article. Wahkeenah 22:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it when I saw it. -- Mwalcoff 22:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Kudos. Wahkeenah 22:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Popularity

message: Eliminate all U.S. regional semi-pro and recreational leagues. Move the four listings in "Alternate rulesets" not already mentioned to the "United States" section. Eliminate the "Canada" section, since they play Canadian football. Eliminate the entry for the three-team Israeli Football League. Remove duplicate mentions of the German Football League and Arena Football from the "See also" section. Remove link to 1903 movie. Mwalcoff 01:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good. --SodiumBenzoate 02:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Leagues, organizations and associations

message: Have removed the Citation Tag for the sentence regarding the suggestions that it is most similar to war.  There is simply a plethora of possible sources for this citation, but it's more of an understood thing and the sources are not military (and as such wouldn't be qualified to make the comparison).  Actually, I'm not one to make a deletion before discussion so I'll throw it back up until we talk about it, sorry bout that.  However, you can find pretty much ANY announcer, many coaches, many players..  really a TON of people that make the Football/war comparison from a strategic standpoint quite regularly... although admittedly the references are a bit less than they used to be so as not to be insensitive to those who are currently in the military and fighting in an ACTUAL war.   It's a metaphorical (sp) comparison, that is made regularly and is generally accepted as strategically similar.  When the aspects of teamwork, discipline, deception, overwhelming force, BLITZing lol, Ground attack, Air Attack, causing confusion, exploiting gaps created in frontlines...  there are so many comparisons the list could go on forever.  It's certainly not literal... and no one would claim it is.  Just at a tactical level the comparison is common and accepted by many.  
Cowboy357 17:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Basic Strategy Section

message: :Template:Infobox gridiron football person seems to be broken. Does anybody have a clue how to fix it? --Guinnog 10:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Broken template

message: This may sound a bit hypodcritical, since I've removed so much "superfluous" stuff from the article. But I think some of what Civil Engineer III removed should be restored, albeit perhaps in a better-written way. He (I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that an engineer who shuns gender-neutral language and likes football is a man) removed a section about down and distance, but I think this is one of the things that confuses foreigners the most. He also removed the penalty example, which may be of use to someone unfamiliar with the game. I'm open to rewording these things if they're poorly written, but I think these topics should be covered in the article.
Also, the "see XXXXX below" items may help readers navigate through the article more easily.
Mwalcoff 22:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Civil Engineer III's edit 

message: I shortened the "Game duration" section because we need to keep out extraneous detail if we want to keep this article a reasonable length. Extra detail can go on a subsidiary page like Overtime (football).
If you think it's absolutely essential to mention NFL playoffs and college/high school, I'm open to suggestions. But it's misleading to compare the college system to soccer shootouts, and there's certainly no reason to go into the 1972 playoff game on this page, let alone so early in the article.
Mwalcoff 02:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overtime 

message: I created a redirect Hike (American football) to this article and edited Hike to use it per WP:MOSDAB. In the process, I removed the following informative sentence:
* 'Hike' is the standard command issued by an American football quarterback to the center offensive lineman to pass him the ball.
This article doesn't explain the term "hike", as it is used in American football, but
I don't know enough about the article to add this information to it.
--Jtir 18:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the redirect to link to Snap (football) and tweaked the wording in Hike. --Jtir 19:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where should the command "Hike" be explained? 

message: It would be helpful if someone who knew about football could include (or create a separate article/link to) something on American football pads.  There is a stub on shoulder pads, but I think that information on the whole kit of armor (at least current, if not historical) would be helpful.  Sorry that I don't know enough to create it myself.
BaikinMan 17:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Football Pads 

message: An editor replaced the sentence:
"Not all of these types of players will be on the field for every offensive play. Teams can vary the number of wide receivers, tight ends and running backs on the field at one time."
with this:
"Not all of these types of players will be on the field for every offensive play. Teams can vary the number of wide receivers, tight ends and running backs on the field before a huddle (or lining up in a no-huddle offense)."
I reverted the change pending discussion here. I think the editor, who said the first sentence made no sense to him, misunderstood the meaning of the word "vary" in this context. "Vary" in this sense is a stative verb, not a dynamic verb like "change" would be. Compare the sentences:
*"Your results may vary."
*"Your results may change."
The first sentence means that you may not lose 50 pounds like the person in the commercial for the Thighmaster. The second sentence means that you may start losing weight but then stop later on.
If this is unclear, we should change the sentence in the article, but we need to keep the focus on the personnel on the field during the play, not when substitutions can be made. -- Mwalcoff 23:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The word "vary" 

message: I've added a rather clunky image of typical offensive and defensive formations to the positions section. Anyone more-adept at making graphics is welcome to improve or replace it. -- Mwalcoff 03:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've posted a similar image  a long time ago.  It didn't appear that anyone felt it was useful for the article. --Kainaw (talk) 18:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: Should an article about the play called end run be added?  Badagnani 17:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also known as an "end around run", it is a play in which a back tries to run the ball around the end of the defensive line.  There isn't much there to be an article since it is so easily summed up with one sentence. --Kainaw (talk) 18:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, that's what I thought he meant, but you never know what someone will come up with. Wahkeenah 02:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I can see an article on end arounds, but there's no need to mention something so specific in the American football article. -- Mwalcoff 23:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Only if there is stuff about other specific plays, like the reverse, the draw play, etc., etc. The specific plays could have a separate article, though not one for each one, which be significant overkill. Wahkeenah 02:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  End run 

message: In football players are getting hit hard in the head damaging the petuitary gland, can someone halp fit this in —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mets4117 (talk • contribs) 01:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the reference for this claim? --Kainaw (talk) 12:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It could charitably be called "original research". Wahkeenah 12:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: More details needed than just that. Wahkeenah 01:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Do you have an actual (and accurate) quote from the show?  Do they have online transcripts? --Kainaw (talk) 04:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  injuries 

message: I've been looking through the American football pages and I get the impression that theres no recognised governing body. (Like FIFA, the IRB, the ITF or the ICC.) Is the sport just a popular American pasttime with a few organised businesses (read 'leagues') that do a good job of making money out of it? I don't mean to be harsh or incendiary, but thats pretty much the impression I'm getting. - aheyfromhome 01:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: American sports generally lack regulatory bodies like FIFA. Every professional league, collegiate association, state high-school athletic association, sandlot league, city youth league, etc., can make its own rules. Same with baseball, basketball and ice hockey. To an American (at least this one), the concept of a "regulatory body" with power over everything from the top professionals to children's leagues seems centralist and undemocratic. -- Mwalcoff 02:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting way of looking at it. Thanks for the reply. - Aheyfromhome 20:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Regulatory Body

message: You should be kidding.. nobody plays this thing in Europe. --Ciao 90 21:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you kidding?  How can you claim NFL Europe does not exist? --Kainaw (talk) 23:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

text: It's a completely pointless comment.  We could claim no one claims cricket or rounders or rugby in the US (though of course a few people do) - that would not make the sports irrelevant to those who care about them. Let's not feed the trolls. Johntex\talk 00:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outside U.S.