Talk:Tuyll

message: “"Tuyll is believed to have been the seat of the court of the region of Teisterbant, the name Holland being used only from 1101."
I removed the second part of the sentence for being irrelevant. If Tuyll is in the Betuwe that means it is not in Holland. Fnorp 12:09, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

message: Pushing to the limit a lone doctoral thesis? Well the words he uses are fairly clear, "niet-adellijke afkomst te verhullen", "geen edelen of ridders waren". That thesis was written by historian who is part of a wider project on the Burgundian period and has written articles for leading Dutch genealogy journals. Contrary to the vanity genealogy of Randek and your literature professors recycling secondary sources, he studied primary sources in the actual archives . And he is most certainly not alone in his assessment that the Van Tuyll usurped their name from an unrelated family. You should contact him arievansteensel.wordpress.com/about/  Ask him about your history, and ask yourself, how did this academic get to this conclusion? He wouldn't have had any interest in falsifying your family tree. His primary interests are facts. Are you suggesting all the academics and genealogists are wrong
The Dutch version had not caught my attention yet. It should obviously be changed as well.
You write: " The thesis also glosses over references to the van Tuyll van Serooskerken name being in use pre-1500 (for instance there is a document on Philipp II of Spain bestowing Serooskerke on a van Tuyll in 1483)." Fact of the matter is that you are not familiar with this document otherwise you would know that the name "van tuyll" doesn't appear in that document (and  Philipp II of Spain wasn't even born in 1483, In the article you write: Philip I of Spain which is also wrong since he Philip I would have only been 5 years old at that point". Als you present it as if some honour or title was bestowed upon your ancestor by a monarch, when actually he just bought Serooskerke).  Your family didn't carry the name van Tuyll before the 16th century as the historian Dr. J. Smit points out. 
And even if the name van Tuyll existed in pre-1500  (which was obviously the case) that doesn't mean anything. Having identical names doesn't mean that one is related. People with the name Smith existed before 1500, but that doesn't mean that everyone with that name is related with each other.  
You write: "The descent not being fully documented, the latest edition of the Adelsboek now starts the history in the 15th century" . No, it doesn't mention it nor does it make a reference to it, because it has been proven to be nonsense based on a falsified family tree. So there is no need to rehash that stuff in the newest edition.. The Nederland's Adelsboek edition you refer to is close to a hundred years old, completely outdated and was written when vanity genealogy was very common. And if it is any consolation to your shattered dreams of descending from knights, compare and contrast a Nederland's Adelsboek from the early 1900s to a modern day one. You will find that your family is not the only one whose genealogy has been drastically changed. Compare this for example to the Clifford family. in the early editions of Adelsboek, they are mentioned as having ancestry that goes back to the time of William the Conqueror. that was based on some dubious manuscript from the 18th century or so. In the new edition of Adelsboek, the family tree starts some 400 years later, and obviously, they don't mention anything about these fictive ancestors, not because, as you would claim "the descent not being fully documented", but because it's nonsense. Before 1900, before a scientific approach based on primary sources, families constantly made up genealogies to look older and more important. Also, correcting a genealogy does not discredit the achievements of your family in the least bit. It just means that you have non-noble roots, and that your ancestors felt it necessary to embellish their family tree.  big deal. that happened countless times. Feel free to get in touch with the editors of the Nederland's Adelsboek. I am sure that they will be happy to tell you that what you are claiming is just plain wrong. www.hogeraadvanadel.nl/ Also try the editors of  De Nederlandsche Leeuw  www.knggw.nl 
You write here: "this thesis was first advanced by the now discredited W. Bijleveld." This thesis has been around longer, Mr. Belonje, couldn't establish a link in 1939 either. And what makes you think that Bijleveld is now discredited? This genealogist's works are still used regularly.
You write: "If the van Tuyll family "traditionally" "claimed" anything they were in company of the High Council for Nobility and many genealogists." They might have thought that a hundred years ago, but since then there has been so much research, that  I am absolutely confident that you will have a very hard time finding some one on the  High Council of Nobility  that would support your view. check the recent edition of Nederland's Adelsboek that they edit and publish. and "many genealogists."  Who do you mean exactly by "many genealogists" ? The most eminent Dutch genealogists who have studied your family  and have published on the topic (e.g. Bijleveld, Smit, Belonje) are all clear that there is no link between your family and the Guelders family.
You write that the father of Eleanore Micault, John/Jean was "knight in the Order of the Golden fleece". I am pretty sure this is incorrect. I can only find him in the role of "treasurer" of that order.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Catastroppphe (talk • contribs) 18:04, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
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