Talk:Keōpūolani

message: E kepalo e Mo'i Kepa pau kau kau e ona maka po eha noe ehemolele kau kau iha hanai lela po'e kui kui hauna kea pau eha Scared Ancient Hawaiian Language translated to English:  
" As our Legacy live long live our Queen Keopuolani madness only starts with those whom see things only with their eyes people cannot help but to bewilder the fact that holiness can be only giving to those of bloodline as we see the stars as our heavens we cannot for get our people whom truly was love by a great Queen Keopuolani. 
King Kamehameha VII, Ni'i Loa Mo'i Kapu Wai wai lohea enei pau 2014    
Why are people getting so attached to these titles?  Only Kaahumanu was known as "Queen"wrong! while Keopuolani was known as Kamehameha's high ranking wife, or the high chiefess.  There is no record of people actually referring to Keopuolani as Queen Keopuolani or Queen Consort. 66.215.18.34 (talk) 01:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Try reading some of the old biographies written about her by her comtemporaries. Like William Richards' Memoir of Keopuolani, late "queen" of the Sandwich Islands.  Plus many of the other wives of Kamehameha were called Queen dowagers or his widow queens, ie. Kaheiheimalie and Namahana Piia by missionaries such as Hiram Bingham I.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:14, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I won't "try" at all.  Not like I have a choice anyway by those who feel they're justified by using European titles in order to inflare some type of regalness which most Americans are usually fascinated by, ironically they don't want a King/Queen for their own country.  Nonetheless, to clarify that she was actually married to a King and was not a ruling queen in her own right, I'll agree to stop bitching about these European titles regardless if only Haoles wrote her name and other chiefesses' names with such titles.  "Try reading" other books written by kanaka and people like Abraham Fornander.  Contemporaries or not, we're talking about foreigners' concept to grasp things versus a Hawaiian perspective which is consistently looked down upon. Mamoahina (talk) 04:20, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's racist to discredit the missionaries records of Hawaiian history just because they were non Hawaiians. They were the ones who invented the written language that most Hawaiians, who can still write their language, use to this day. And as for the trying to read other books, I've read Fornander and other books by Hawaiians. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:57, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

text: For your info, David Malo and Samuel Kamakau referred to her as "the Queen-Mother" and Fornander called her "Keopuolani, the Queen of Kamehameha I". So even the best Hawaiians sources called her Queen.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:57, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title of "Queen Consort" 

message: WRT "her family tree to six generations has 13 different people in the 64 possible different positions"-- are you sure about this? As the first generation in the tree, she's person #1; add to that 2 parents (in positions 2-3), 3 grandparents (in positions 4-7), and 5 great-grandparents (in positions 8-15), which is as far as I can map it out on paper so far-- that's a subtotal of 11 people so far, and that still leaves out two generations (16-31 and 32-63) which certainly have more than 2 people in them. I think you were right the first time in counting 13(?) ggg-grandparents in her fifth generation of ancestors (32-63), rather than 13 cumulative ancestors from all five generations. --Wombat1138 (talk) 17:27, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the number to 62 to because that makes more sense and I;m not counting herself.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:14, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've tried to collate your information into a graphical family tree at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ktree.GIF , but it's still rather messy-- I should probably go back into the program to increase the font size and remove the background grid, among other things. Any other suggestions? --Wombat1138 (talk) 01:37, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you do that?  I can list more of her ancestors if you want because many of the branches lead straight back to King Umi of Hawaii.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:45, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm using a free evaluation copy of a program called "GenoPro", though it has a lot of complicated features I'm not using-- since everything here is just text and straight lines, possibly something as simple as the MS Paint utility could also work. I think the current family tree is enough for the direct pedigree-collapse comparison to Charles V of Spain; we should check other biography articles to see how many generations they usually allow in a chart for an individual. --Wombat1138 (talk) 04:13, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

text: A few more questions-- I've been tweaking the tree layout again, but haven't uploaded a new copy yet. Originally, I filled in the family tree with a straightforward cut/paste of the names in your table, but the titles aren't completely standardized/consistent; frex, the main article for Kalahumoku II refers to his ancestors Lonohonuakini and Kalanikauanakinilani (the parents of Kaulahea II) as King/Queen of Maui, but in here, the former is given no title at all and the latter is merely called "High Chiefess". 1.) Should I assume that anyone without a specific title is ali'i aimoku of their specific island, and add the "King/Queen" label to their name? 2.) For regional ali'i and ali'i aimoku, is the preferred format "(title) {name) of (place)", or "(name), (title) of (place)"? --Wombat1138 (talk) 21:56, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing is constant.  Here my approach at translating the Hawaiian title of ali'i.  Alii Aimoku are mentioned as King and Queens, sometimes I named their wives as Queens and sometime not.  Name of Place is a copy of the European system of naming I saw on other articles.  Prince and Princess are the children of the Alii Aimoku.  High Chief and Chiefess are all other aliis.  For the district chiefs who actually ruled I used (name), High Chief of (district).  For the sons of Keaweikekahialiʻiokamoku I used Prince (name), High Chief of (district) because they were ruling chiefs and sons of alii aimokus. One of the things that seems really confusing is the lack of a place for most of the High Chiefs and chiefesses besides the ones from Maui.  I think I'll just remove those. Can you just go without titles for your family tree?  I think that is the best approach at this.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Also two more thing 1.) Was that a yes or no on more ancestors? 2.) I have found the indentity of the unknown chiefess, the wife of Umi-a-Liloa of Maui is High Chiefess Kuihewamakawalu! Found it in a geneaology book. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:33, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks-- I'll add Kuihewamakawalu's name. (I hope GenoPro's free evaluation period lasts long enough to optimize the diagram.) I think "no" on more ancestors farther up-- I experimented with adding Kamehameha I to this tree to show how he was related, but it got even more confusing and didn't directly contribute to the subject of her own pedigree collapse... wrt titles/places, do you want me to remove all of them, or just the non-regionally-attached "High Chief(ess)" ones? Personally, I found the titles really useful in the text chart for identifying the person's gender, but maybe that isn't necessary anymore in the tree diagram because it indicates gender with a circle/square shape. --Wombat1138 (talk) 20:26, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be best to exclude the title if the gender is clearly shown.  Do you want to take a look at further ancestors before you make a decision because they all do lead up to only a handful of people like Umi-a-Liloa for all the Hawaiian chiefs and Kalanikaumakaowakea for most of the Mauian chiefs. I give it to you here and see what you can do with it.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

text: OK-- I've used the new names from above in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ktree3.JPG as a semi-rough draft-- the overall layout hasn't been rebalanced and the grid lines are still there, but at least all of the genealogical links are in place w/ minimal overlaps; I had to shrink down the font to fit the names between the branches. The layout with the marriage lines dropped underneath the names, rather than running directly between the icons, is the default format for GenoPro; I don't particularly like the way it looks, but it does make it easier to move things around and place everyone in the same generation nearer the same level. Haven't yet deleted the titles, which would free up some vertical space. --Wombat1138 (talk) 04:58, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice. By the way, just to tell you Kauloaiwi is the son of Kalanikaumakaowakea of Maui and High Chiefess Makakuwahine right next to him and the brother of Umi-a-Liloa II of Maui. And do you have to include the unknown?  Couldn't just end with Kealomako?  Do you still want to continue on to Umi-a-Liloa I.  I think it'll take at the most four or five more generations to reach him.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:47, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Partially updated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ktree3.JPG -- generic non-regional "High Chief(ess)" titles deleted, ruling Ali'i Aimoku standardized to King/Queen, their children standardized to Prince(ss), direct line(s) mostly established back to Umi-a-Liloa I via misc. online databases. At this point, the number of generations is pushing against the limit of font legibility while still fitting into a single screenshot, and the number of overlapping lines is shooting back up. Question: who were the respective fathers of Queen Kaikilani's children, esp. King Keake-alani-kane and his wife Keali'i-o-kalani? All I can find about them is the statement that they were half-siblings, but nothing about their fathers' identities. I'm not completely certain about Kanaloa-kuaana as the father of their (half?)-sister Kalani-o-'Umi, either. --Wombat1138 (talk) 01:31, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: They seem to be full blood siblings not half-siblings.  And Kalani-o-'Umi was also their full-sister.  Kaikalani didn't have any children with her other husband Lonoimaikahiki.  I think it is only Royal Arks that calls them half-siblings.  Did you know I was also descended from Umi-a-Liloa through his mother and father and Kalanikaumakaowakea's mother was Iwikaukaua's full blood sister?  Some of your spelling is incorrect and I think some of the hyphen use also.  Can you wait a few days until I have time to help you out a little?  I'm a little busy right now with other stuff. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:47, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, Keakealanikāne & his wife Kealiʻiokalani were children of Kanaloakuaʻana and Kaikilani.  Abraham Fornander as well as Samuel Kamakau (Ruling Chiefs of Hawaiʻi) mention Keakealanikāne & Kealiʻiokalaniʻs daughter Keakamehana and how she was a piʻo child and how the lands passed on to her daughter Keakealaniwahine and Keakealaniwahine ruled the island of Hawaiʻi. Mamoahina (talk) 01:59, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

text: No problem-- I was mostly trying to wade back through up to Umi-a-Liloa rather than creating a final document. I do have earlier drafts saved, so if you'd prefer to base later updates on the current tree in the article instead of the one in this thread, then that's doable too. I guess that the main underlying issue on my mind is that the article may need some added explanations about why Umi-a-Liloa is a particularly important ancestor as a cutoff point, esp. what makes him specifically relevant to Keopuolani herself. (Meanwhile, the GenoPro free trial period still has a few more days left; I may end up buying the program on general principle, though.) --Wombat1138 (talk) 00:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is very important to know that Keōpūolaniʻs relation to ʻUmi was not considered.  Yes she descends from ʻUmi multiple times like many other aliʻi.  And yes, ʻUmi was very important in our history, but Keōpūolani is known for their Maui ties which comes from her parents, particularly her grandmother.  It was her grandmotherʻs father the Maui chief Kekaulike who had who descended from Kapukini three times, a descendant of ʻUmi.  Kekaulikeʻs wife Kekuʻiapoiwanui was the one who descended from ʻUmi 10 times (if I counted correctly), but thatʻs all going back at least 7 generations (both with Kekaulike & Kekuiʻapoiwanui), so more than a century.  Iʻd suggest Kamakau & Fornanderʻs books to get more insight into those particular aliʻi and John Papa Iʻiʻs book too about Keōpūolani. Mamoahina (talk) 02:15, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Pedigree collapse

message: It seems that trying to attach English titles to the various ali'i is what causes these confusions.  Unless you fully understand the rank, which by the way is also mentioned in David Malo's book as well as Samuel Kamakau's, you can understand who was higher ranking, ali'i 'aimoku, etc.  To put "Supreme" or "High" next to "Chief" doesn't translate accurately.  I say just name them by name if it causes confusion.  Even if you look at some of the titles used with European (of which these particular titles originated from) royals, they werenʻt consistent with the titles, although it was probably due to multiple people editing the wiki pages.  But I say remove these "prince/princess" titles, especially since those titles were never used until the time of Kamehameha III. Mamoahina (talk) 01:50, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No I disagree. It depends on how someone would translate alii. Many different cultures have their own royal titles with no European connections then they are later translated to European titles. To me the child of an alii aimoku (King) is a princess.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:17, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  But just because they are marginalized to European titles that doesnʻt mean we should now omit them entirely for the sake of the western audience to comprehend. To many of us a child of an aliʻi was an aliʻi, not a prince/princess.  A child of an aliʻiʻaimoku was an aliʻi, not a prince/princess.  Not even in the court of Kamehameha I and Kamehameha II were they using such titles.  They didnʻt exist. It seems nothing but decorative.  If we want to be less misleading, Iʻd suggest using the normal terms we know of and learned in school, aliʻi and aliʻiwahine.  Even with mōʻī, that term was never used before until later, but we wouldnʻt be using it for anyone prior to that term even being used.  And not all aliʻi were aiʻiʻaimoku or mōʻī, etc., so what titles would you try to come up with for their daughters?  And their sons?  And have you read even Abraham Fornanderʻs books and his lack of use of western titles on many of the chiefs? Mamoahina (talk) 02:22, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

text: I would also tend to avoid precise terms like "princess". However, the problem is that most readers of Wikipedia outside of Hawaii did not learn what "ali'i" was in school. This is the English language encyclopedia, so we should use English except when using names or places for example. If you want to mention ali'i then make sure it is linked and in italics in its first use, and explained in English. Generally avoid its use as a title, since that is not the Wikipedia convention. That is, instead "Princess X" or even "Ali'i X" I should just say "X", and perhaps mention something like she was alii (nobility) due to her family background. "Chiefess X" or "High Chiefess X" is used often too, but do agree it loses subtle but important distinctions of rank. I only see "Princess" used in a few sources from around the 1950s, generally about the people in the Kam III period and beyond, as introduced by Robert Crichton Wyllie I think. W Nowicki (talk) 21:17, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah we should just use the name version and or the High Chief and High Chiefess with a mentioning of the title of ali;i. But what about the differet island names? --KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:18, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Titles 

message: Another question: about a month ago an unregisered user took out all the kahakō over the "u" in her name. So it now does not match the article title. No sources nor edit comments were provided. I would revert, since Pukui (the source I use for spelling) put both kahakō on the word ōpū. Most sources I see use both, Keōpūolani. W Nowicki (talk) 21:26, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[kahakō]] 

message: Apparently. it seems like Emma Alexandria Kalanikauikaalaneo Kilioulaninuiamamao Kanoa De Fries (1855–1923) is said to be a lineal descendant of Keopuolani and was called a princess in the territorial days. She was a noted Hawaiian cultural figure. This should probably be taken with a grain of salt though, although she seems to be an interesting person independent of her royal claims.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:20, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems she claims to be a descendant of her sister Kilioulaninuiamamao Hikawainui. . --KAVEBEAR (talk) 09:16, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope not a sister, Keopuolani herself . Also article indicates the questionability of her claim forward by other chiefess saying she can't prove her lineage.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 09:29, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I actually misread the above sources. The two agrees that she claims to be the descendant of Kilioulaninuiamamao Hikawainui, Keopuolani's half-sister and the daugther of Kiwalao and Kalanikauiokikilo Kalaniwaiakua (daughter of Kamehamehanui and Kalolanui, also considered the highest ranking chiefess of her day). Genealogists denies Kilioulaninuiamamao Hikawainui as a daughter of Kiwalao. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 13:11, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emma De Fries