Talk:Nathan Bedford Forrest/Archive 1

message: You have authored a remarkably balanced article, given the subject matter.  Very little is known about Forrest's life following the war, so it is appropriate not to speculate too much.  It is clear that he was Grand Wizard (or Cyclops) of the KKK, but that's about all that is known.  His military genius being what it was, it would be a shame for the verified accomplishments of Forrest's war record to be eclipsed by the murky events of his life after the war, as inexcusable as they may be.  -- AC —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 162.33.128.142 (talk • contribs) 17:45, 27 July 2005  (UTC) 
What about Forrest's actions in the war itself? The massacre at Fort Pillow is "excusable"? Today Confederate apologists try to paint the secessionist movement as a noble cause that had nothing to do with slavery. Forrest's actions exposes the truth about the Confederacy---that it was a racist institution devoted to the preservation of slavery and the subjugation of an entire people. I shudder that people today still think of him as a hero. If years from now Germans decide to erect a statue and monument to Goebells, we will have no reason to complain Edward J. Cunningham 15:27, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nathan Bedford Forrest 

message: It is a rare thing that one with such limited formal education, lack of social connections and of opportunity could become such a lightning rod of opinion.  Yet Forrest has become just that.  The article gives an excellent overview of the life and career of General Forrest.  Like the author, I too from the South.  I watch with interest the many who openly voice their distaste and, at times, outright hatred for Bedford Forrest.  Hardly a year passes without certain groups in Memphis trying to disinter the bodies of the General and his wife and dump the remains in the Mississippi River.  His association with the early stages of the Klan are well documented and used liberally to foster ever greater and wider dislike for him and his accomplishments.
Yet, books about Forrest and art prints of his many experiences continue to be remarkably popular with the public, at least in the South.  He was crude and, at times, overly harsh.  So were the times in which he lived.  He was brilliant as a military officer.  In fact, had he been given command of combined arms, he would most assuredly accomplished more striking successes than those now on record.  He used his personal negroes as wagon drivers for his command and gave them their freedom only when it was clearly evident that the end was near.  It is of more than passing interest that the great majority of those slaves, when given the freedom they so longed for, chose to stay with Forrest.  Those who were under his iron discipline for so many years, who knew the temper of the man in ways no one then, or now, ever could, made the decision to stay with him as free men and continue their service.
Forrest lived in a time and a life none of us today can truly comprehend.  It is a very simple thing for us to point to certain aspects of his life and condemn him as illiterate and racist.  Those things he may have well been, yet, in the end, as death drew near, Forrest saw clearly the errors of his life and spoke to the remorse he held on more than one occasion.  It is one thing to lead a life of violence and disobedience to the common god of society, of which he is often accused.  It is another thing altogether to recognize one's failures and repent of them to the One whose opinion really matters, as did Forrest.
I wish Fort Pillow had never happened and that the Klan had remained a group of kids at play.  Still, Nathan Bedford Forrest was one of the truly great men produced by a truly great country.  That's why my son's name is Forrest.
Michael Sawyer —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.84.92.69 (talk • contribs) 01:04, 13 February 2005  (UTC)
:This may be unpopular, but if we are to mention his involvement in the Klan, couldn't we mention his speech at the Jubilee of Pole Bearers. Just mentioning the former seems to me as lacking good faith considering that he apparently made amends in his later years. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by  70.81.36.33 (talk • contribs) 23:27, 28 July 2005  (UTC)
::Where can I find this speech? I don't apologize for my vehement opposition to racism and slavery, but I will be shooting myself in the foot if I alienate EVERY descendent of Confederate soldiers. If Forrest showed genuine remorse for what the KKK had become (and perhaps his own actions as well) he could actually become a role model. What exactly did he say? Edward J. Cunningham 01:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The legacy of Bedford Forrest 

message: Why do people automatically connect NBF with the KKK?
The KKK was a 'secret society' which kept no real records or documents.  There is no actual proof that NBF had anything to do with the KKK other than being asked to lead the group in its early stages when it was a nobel cause (defending the South against reconstruction(the real evil you were not taught about in school)).  After the klan died down for several years and was esentially not needed b/c the true Southern citizens took care of their own, the idle hands turned to evil.  At that time NBF stepped in and asked (asked, not told b/c he was not actually a part of the organization) the klan to formally disban.  After NBF asked them to disband and before then most of the honorable Southern men had removed themselves from this organization as they did not need it anymore.
you should know some other real facts.
Forrest had 65 Black troopers listed on his muster roll at surender.  His adjutant penned the word trooper by each name in all the paperwork of these individule men as far back as records can be researched.  Others that did the job were noted as teamsters, blacksmiths, cooks, personal assistant, etc.  For NBF to use the term "trooper" in this case meant that the man had arms, honorably fell in rank, and was commanded in battle.
There were 8 Black Confederate soldiers in Forrest's Escort (his personal guard!).  Each member of the escort caried at least: two pistols, one shotgun, one rifle, multiple knives and or sabers.  They were all the best of the best horsemen and fighters.
The yankees were the ones to mark out the title by each Black Confederate name.
Do not automatically connect NBF with the wrong doings of the KKK when he had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Deo Vindice —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.107.233.84  (talk • contribs) 21:39, 15 August 2005  (UTC)
:Alright, I am calling you out on this even if nobody else here does. Just exactly when and how was the Ku Klux Klan EVER a "nobel cause"? [sic]  Edward J. Cunningham 15:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Forrest helped found the Ku Klu Klan, so he had everything to do with it. Besides, just because he opposed the METHODS of the Klan in later years does not mean he saw the light and saw that their GOALS of white supremacy was wrong. Ultimately, the goals of the Confederacy and the KKK were one and the same. Edward J. Cunningham 15:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  good article, but 

message: There's a hideous statue in Nashville, Tennessee by the I-65, as seen here. Should this be mentioned? --Apostrophe 04:57, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was going to lecture you on NPOV until I followed the link. Yes, it is truly hideous. However, the fact of being commemorated over a hundred years after his death by a bad statue is only notable if the statue itself is notable. If it is on a list of ten worst statues (it might be), or part of a tour of hideous artworks, then mentioning it might encyclopedic. As for simply including a (public domain) photo of it, that's a separate question. -Willmcw 06:24, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
Oh...My... I asked myself,"What would NBF have thought of this "tribute"?  The words "spinning" and "grave" spring readily to mind. Hamster Sandwich 01:48, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In other posts, I may be criticizing Forrest's actions at Fort Pillow or as head of the KKK. In this case, I am ONLY criticizing the statue. I do not mean to suggest that Forrest actually was a cross dresser! Edward J. Cunningham 01:05, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Ugly statue

message: There is an apocryphal story that Forrest was dismissing one of his officers (a Major), when the subordinate pulled out a small pistol (Derringer?) and thrusting it into Forrest's side, fired the weapon. Forrest seized the major's wrist and held his arm in such a way to incapacitate him from fireing a second shot. Forrest was said to have reached into his own pocket with his free hand, pulling out a folding knife (which he opened with his teeth) and proceeded to repeatedly stab his attacker. The men are separated and taken to different locations. Forrests' surgeon proclaimed his wound to be mortal, and did not expect the general to survive till the following morning. Hearing this diagnosis, Forrest is said to have exclaimed, "No man shall kill me and live!" whereupon he left his bed and sought to find the major who had attacked him. Upon finding him, Forrest began to once more beat the other man, at one point throwing him through a window. The two men were again separated and taken to neutral locations. Later the same evening, the generals' surgeon recanted the previous opinion he had made as to the severity of the wounds sustained by the pistol shot, and he now felt Forrest would survive the attack. A contrite Forrest went to the subordinate who had attacked him, and made a personal apology to the major, shortly before that man expired from the result of the beating he had recieved at the hands of the inimitable Forrest. 
I haven't found anything online to verify this story, but I remember it from a couple hard-copy biographies I once owned about the General. I wouldn't mind seeing the story included somewhere within the article proper, it seems a clear glimpse into the determination and fighting spirit of NBF. Hamster Sandwich 21:59, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "No man shall kill me and live..." 

message: I am going to submit this article for approval as a Featured Article on the main page. It's as good now as most any biography that has been featured in that space recently, and feel that all of the editors that have made contributions here should take some pride in the way it has turned out. Any questions, comments or ideas on this proposal are most welcome. Thanks! Hamster Sandwich 02:20, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured article? 

message: The opening sentence of this section has many NPOV and factual problems with it.
*It states an opinion about Fort Pillow as fact.
*It attributes an order to Forrest at Fort Pillow that is unsourced, and doesn't seem to appear in any of the standard historical accounts of the battle.
*It espouses the anti-Forrest POV on the battle, when in fact the events that happened at the battle are heavily disputed.
These items need to be fixed in order to bring this article into compliance with WP:NPOV. Rangerdude 05:53, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Posthumous legacy

message: Throughout my education (in class and out), I've heard that Forrest was considered a military genius, and this point of view is repeated in the article.  Unfortunately, the majority of my training concerns the eastern theater of the war.  For that purpose, could someone explain why Forrest is regarded as such?  The article doesn't quite offer much on the premise, other than he beat forces larger than his own.  Could someone more informed add some tactical or strategic information which reinforces Forrest's reputation?  Currently, the only tidbit I know of his strategy is the often repeated, "Get there firstest with the mostest."  Please take this more as a request, than a criticism.  RebelAt 01:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Military Genius

message: I'm surprised that there are currently only 5 references in this entire article, and none of them in the sections on Fort Pillow and NBF's connection to the KKK, both contentious. Because of this, I've tagged the entire article and those specific sections. I'm not saying I doubt the statements, but I certainly won't believe them until some proper citations are added.
I'd also like to remind everyone that angry statements regarding the KKK or political correctness are not appropriate for Wikipedia, even on Talk pages. Wyatt Riot 17:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a text of a post-war interview Forrest gave on Wikisource found here . As far as Forrest's involvement at Fort Pillow, perhaps by reading the pertinent article here in WP and seeing the references provided there, then crossreferencing them with the ones here and reading some of the print material (not to my knowledge available online) that has been cited in this article you will find that adequite citations have been provided for the inclusion of this material here. Regards, Hamster Sandwich 19:48, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References