Talk:Greek genocide/Archive 3

message: The higly POV interpretation removed:
:Another method used by the oppressors was to force the weaker population, including women and children, to walk for hundreds of kilometres until they died. This was known as the "White Death" Foreign Office Memorandum by Mr. G.W. Rendel on Turkish Massacres and Pesrsecutions of Minorities since the Armistice, March 20, 1922, Paragraph 24. 
It was not deliberate genocide; it was population transfer. People died, but to call it "method of genocide" is twisting POV. Such long walks happened everywhere all the time throughout human history. Mukadderat 17:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have said it before for the Armenian Genocide, cause the same argument was used by specific users there as well: it was not just a population transfer! only if Turkey was ruled by 5-year-old children that time, they would not know that, when u force children, women and old people to walk in the desert endlessly, without food of water, they will die! common logic! noone has to be Einstein to see that! the ottomans and kemal knew exactly what they were doing... Hectorian 17:48, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, Mukadderat, u removed cited info, simply cause it did not fit your POV... this is not encyclopedic attitude u know... I would advice u to re-add it, and even if u don't, it will be re-added by someone else... Hectorian 17:51, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I do find validity in Hectorian's argument that when u expect people to walk so much people have a legitimate right to wonder what the real purpose is. That's one thing.. On the other hand, during the Ottoman reign such exile edicts have been used commonly by all Sultans (don't forget they were absolute divine (caliphs) monarchs), for example for the Bahaii in the 19th century. I am not saying I agree with this method of dealing with sociopolitical problems, see my first sentence. But one thing that I don't understand however, is when and where Kemal comes into this: he didn't have any real power in the Empire before 1920, and no concrete power before 1922.. I really can't imagine him finding any time, considering all the other problems in the Empire at the time, to single-handedly delve into this issue and dictating others to chase and kill Pontus Greeks.. I am not saying it is impossible, but it is highly improbable.. Power of Kemal during the first world war until 1923 is highly exaggerated even by Turks, in fact it took him until the mid-1920s before he dealt with dissent and confirmed himself as the prime power in Turkey... Even from your reasoning Hector, the prime guilty party in this is the Young Turk party and their collaborators (Ataturk was a Young Turk, but he was never in the decision-making organs of it during the said time).. Baristarim 18:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I feel like i touched a sensitive chord:)... (btw, i would be very very surprised if a modern turk would not support Kemal...). maybe he was not the only one making the decisions during the Sultan and Young Turks era, but he was among those, and later on he was the primary one. when i was talking about the 'White Death', perhaps Kemal had nothing to do with it, cause during the time he was in charge, 'civilian marches' were not common. but destruction of villages and labour camps were common. anyway, lets say that i never mentioned him concerning 'White Death', but i am still including him in those responsible for the event as a whole... PS: Baristarim, did u find anything about Topal Osman? Hectorian 19:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes you did :))) Baristarim 19:18, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

text: As for Topal Osman, funny that you mentioned :)) Lack of reliable academic sources.. I have made a considerable search but I am still clueless for two reasons: One, there is no real and reliable academic source that has dealt with the history and life of people like him, secondly, sites in Turkish that mention him are extremely vague at best, in the sense that in most biographies of him he is mentioned as a local independence hero and talk about how he helped suppress pro-Megali Idea Pontus Greek revolts around his native region.. As you can imagine, none of them are informative in the academic sense :)).. You will agree that both definitions in italics are extremely vague by nature.. It is sad.. They think that they are informing people but in fact they are not at all.. I am going to accept neither local independence hero nor butcher labels at face value, but I will try to find more about him in texts that mention the events of the time in a more global context.. It might take time :) Baristarim 19:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as i am concerned, u have as much time as u want... But my question was different: what is written in the monument that Kemal's regime raised in his grave? what i know, is that it says: 'He helped a great deal in the extermination of the Pontian Greeks'. i am not asking whether his name will remain in history as a hero or as a butcher... I made a simply question, and though i found the answer in greek and english-language web pages, i cannot read the turkish ones... so, i am asking u if u can find and translate it. Hectorian 19:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I will have a look.. Baristarim 20:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Kindly read the sources first, and then make comments. There are sources linking this Pontian 'promenade' to the same method used in the Armenian genocide. •NikoSilver• 23:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Soviet, but applicable nevertheless... my cousin's husband was deported in a cattle car packed with men to Siberia. By the time the train reached Siberia, a third had died. By the time they were "walked" to their labor camp in Siberia, he was the only one left alive out of that entire cattle car packed full. Do a death walk once and only once, it's an aberation and a massacre. Do it more than once, that is repeatedly and systematically, it's genocide. I don't see how there's a lot of room for debate here.--Pēters J. Vecrumba 13:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Killing by walking

message: It seems to me that some side here does not have what it takes to take this where applicable. The sources are compelling and the article is more than neutral. What is missing is the other side. Just go ahead and add it, or deal with this issue to establish consensus. As long as I don't find the argumentation convincing, I too am going to remove those tags at sight. •NikoSilver• 21:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: More than neutral?? Are you joking? In any case, neutrality of the article and neutrality of the title is not the same.. You are saying that you don't find the argumentation convincing, I respect your opinion, but that doesn't mean that there is no dispute.. I mean, is there really no dispute or have I been thinking about another article?? There are tons of arguments above.. Sources are compelling.. Right.. I really like the one that calls Turks baby-killers.. The tags are there because there are many people who think there is a problem with the title, not just Turks or Greeks.. The other side.. Don't worry I will add it as soon as the title is changed.. First things first.. Sources: Nowhere in the world the university or school textbooks that talk about the events of the First World War or Greek-Turkish conflicts refer to it as Pontian Greek Genocide, I am sorry I got no link for that Nikos, that ain't good enough?? :))) Baristarim 22:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Strange, I could have sworn that the General Assembly of the State of Pennsylvania in the USA, the 'Union against Genocide' and the 'Speaking with One Voice' organizations in Germany etc all see a genocide in those events. Anyway, you have yet to cite a source saying that no genocide took place. How are you going to convince everyone that those organizations are wrong? --Tzekai 22:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

text: No it's not good enough and Tzekai pointed out why above. The third sources that exist call it as such. Do you have a source that calls it otherwise? Also, I understand why you don't want to add the Turkish POV. It's simply moot, and ofcourse you wouldn't like that to be exposed, so that you can continue harrassing the article with these templates. Side note: edit conflicts (twice now) with you are impossible to avoid - kindly post your edits one by one as mostly everyone. There's a button called 'preview'. •NikoSilver• 22:31, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah I got one, I am going to repeat it until it gets through: The school and university textbooks of the whole world that talk about the events of the First World War and Greek-Turkish conflicts.. Got no link for that one, I am afraid :)) I will add the Turkish side of the story as soon as the title issue is resolved, otherwise you are expecting me to go along with this minority agenda pushing when you ask me come on, contribute!!, ha ha, very funny - don't expect me to legitimize this article's title by asking me to add the Turkish POV.. We r both not stupid... Baristarim 23:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

text: AS for the US States, what a joke... Mississippi had a law that said it is ok to kill a Mormon until it was revoked in the 70s. Most of those states also have the death penalty, so much for democracy that I wonder how democratic they really r. I lived in the States, I know how f..-up agenda pushing can be in a state.. 6 out of 50.. Well, good luck.. I mean it is not even half :))).. In any case that is completely irrelevant since individual states don't determine foreign policy, they can pass anything they want - the only sovereign country that has recognized is Greece, not even Cyprus has recognized it (they are looking for a solution with Turkey to the Cyprus dispute, eh??  - funny that they recognize the Armenian Genocide, so much for looking for an improved dialogue) Baristarim 23:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Who do the hell are Union against Genocide and Speaking with One Voice anyways? There are millions of NGO out there.. Whatever.. Baristarim 23:18, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

text: There are many people who call God an asshole, Bush a terrorist, their girlfriends the most beautiful woman on earth etc.. That doesn't mean that they are serious and reliable academic research.. It is such a minority opinion held by some Greeks (and some loony non-Greeks) that what happened was a Genocide, that there are no anti-theses.. As for my sources: yeah I got one, I am going to repeat it until it gets through: The school and university textbooks of the whole world that talk about the events of the First World War and Greek-Turkish conflicts Baristarim 23:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No there aren't as many, plus there is anti-thesis for those. As per your repetition, I thought you should have figured out already that most schools and universities have (a) libraries containing many of those sources (b) probably cite these incidents. So I suggest you find one that cites them and calls them eg. "Pontian Greek UFO abduction". •NikoSilver• 00:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See Genocide/Massacre above (or in the archive at the moment), nobody said that they were abducted by a bunch of aliens.. The same goes for numbers, how did they come about? Baristarim 00:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So, Baristarim, when are you going to cite your sources? You may sit back saying "your many sources are not good enough for me", but you still haven't cited any sources contradicting anything (even the alleged content of all schoolbooks (which was an unsourced claim) doesn't contradict anything in this article). I think Hectorian summed it up quite well: without sources, this article ain't gonna be renamed. So stop wasting people's time and cite some sources. --Tzekai 06:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, they contradict something very fundamental in this article: its title.. Please see the archive for Genocide/Massacre.. Unsourced claim? Is this a joke? All the textbooks of the world, is there something not clear about that? Cite it, yeah well, I cited it there you go: The school and university textbooks of the whole world that talk about the events of the First World War and Greek-Turkish conflicts, should I repeat it in case it hasn't gotten through? I am not going to go to a library and waste my time searching something so common sense.. This article is used as original research to prove that certain massacres 90 years ago was a Genocide.. Most secondary sources talk about massacres, not Genocide - please see Genocide/Massacre issue in the archives again.. I have raised many points about the reliability of the sources, claims of original research, nature of events and historical revisionism.. Nobody has a right to go back a century to dig up events and add them new definitions or meanings.. Even Greece recognized this as such only ten years ago because of lobbying of a bunch of politicians and lobby groups.. Sometimes recognition can come late, but people have a legitimate right to wonder what the purpose of this article is when, after 90 years of alleged events taking place, only country to recognize it is Greece and that for the last ten years.. Baristarim 07:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How exactly do they contradict the title? Do they say the events which the definitely non-Greek State of Illinois with a population of 10,5 million alleges is a genocide is not a genocide. As I've told you numerous times, if a source doesn't address the issue on whether the events were a genocide or not, then it can't be used to prove either. Also, considering that "massacre" in reference to these events is as widely used as you say it is, it certainly has an inconsistent Google ranking. --Tzekai 07:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Google?? Since when is Google an academic resource? Hell, I can get more hits with God is an asshole (+7 Million) or My girlfriend is the most beautiful woman on earth (+3 Million) than most of the article titles on Wiki will.. And the non-Greek state of Illinois with a population of 10,5 million is not an academic resource either, (it is not a secondary source, to be more technical) see my post a bit above about the resolutions and laws of individual US states.. It can be cited in the section recognition of events as genocide, it cannot prove in itself that it was a genocide.. I get 385000 hits for Ottoman Greek massacres, how about that?? Nobody uses the term Pontic other than Greeks and some loony non-Greeks, they were most commonly known as Ottoman Greeks. Ottoman Greek Massacres get more hits than Ottoman Greek Genocide by the way FYI.. Baristarim 07:37, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

text: You seem fail to see difference between politically charged name calling and proving things with facts. It does not matter how may times someone called something "genocide". This is a swear word. People call each other "nazis", "fascists", "murderers" all the time througout the history. There is an internationally recognized definition of genocide. Pontic Greek case was not recognized by international bodies as genocide. Meaning that convincing proofs were not presented. Period. Wikipedia editors have vastly inferior knowledge than, say, UN, and pushing this word here is nothing than political agenda. On the pther hand, I do agree that some people like to use this word, and there is no reason to hide this. Therefore my proposal is to rename the article into Pontian Greek genocide allegations, to discuss theories under these allegations in a neutral way. Mukadderat 16:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is the most common name for the events, it does have an academic backing and it does have some international recognition. OTOH, it has a lot more recognition than the Assyrian Genocide or the Burundi Genocide, yet no one is disputing those articles' titles (perhaps this is the Wikipedia way). Anyway, how about renaming it to Pontian Greek genocidal massacres. I know it has less results in a Google test, so it may seem rather irregular within the framework of Wikipedia's standard practices, however Pontian genocide allegations is the title of the article at the Turkish Wikipedia, where BTW Google is used as an academic resource, yet Baristarim is not complaining there. --Tzekai 17:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

text: You should have already understood that there is no way any proposal you make will be commented on by the other side. The purpose of that is to go around our tails and keep the damn tags here forever...•NikoSilver• 22:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tags the sequel 

message: As I've stated already the other side of the dispute does not have what it takes to take this issue to WP:RM. You are using this fabricated 'dispute' over the title to keep the article hostage with your tags, because you know that no reasonable supporter can move for renaming the article! You also admit that you are not inserting citations for the Turkish side, so that you don't give any 'legitimacy' to the article. This is blackmail, so I'll spell it out for you: Take the tags off, or go and humiliate yourselves at WP:RM. •NikoSilver• 21:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:RM]] 

message: About so-called "fabricated 'dispute' tag". What is it: genuine ignorance or deliberate provocation and disinformation? There are hundreds of quotations easily available: Turkey does not recognize the term "genocide".
*"Turkey is unhappy about a new monument in Thessaloniki marking the genocide of Pontic Greeks, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan told Greek Premier Costas Karamanlis during a meeting in Vienna on Friday as Ankara steps up pressure in its disputes with Athens." Greek News
*Namik Tan (foreign ministry spokesman): "So-called Pontic genocide lacks historical and scientific evidence." "We suggest that Greek authorities and scholars evaluate the historical events objectively instead of using such expressions that can damage relations between our two countries. We want to again reiterate that this step, which became a fodder for feeble arguments, isn’t in line with the spirit of the cooperation and dialogue we’re trying to develop." Cumhuriyet, mAy 11, 2006
*Turkish experts argue that the genocide claims are added by the Greek and Armenian lobbies to prevent Turkey's EU process. Dr. Sedat Laciner from USAK, Ankara-centred Turkish think tank told the JTW that there is no condition of recognition of any genocide claim: "Turkey has fulfilled all main conditions for EU membership. That's why the anti-Turkish groups add new condition to stop the process". Dr. Laciner also claims that the EP report is so biased and accuse only the Turks: "The Armenian claims are historical claims. The Armenians believe in that the 1915 Relocation Campaign was a genocide. It means the EP gives great importance to the events happened almost a century ago. Yet the same EP mention nothing about the Armenian occupation in Azerbaijani territories. Yerevan does not recognise the Kars Treaty. According to Armenians the Eastern parts of Turkey is Western Armenia. I mean EP should also see the Armenian irredentism.Similarly the Pontus and Assyrian genocide claims are baseless and not serious." The Journal of Turkish Weekly 09 September 2006
Enough? or you need more? I gave you both Turkish and Greek  sources, just in case. Mukadderat 02:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotations about Trukey not recognizing genocide

message: How about the following conspiracy theory: this pressure on Turkey about genocide is stirred by Al-Qaeda! Reason: with access of Turkey to EU blocked, it will inevitably turn to the rest of Muslim world. See what already happens: Turkish PM, Erdogan is a devoted Islamist... `'mikka (t) 03:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nha ha ha.. Very funny. BTW, It was me who killed JFK, did u know :)) Baristarim 03:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And to something implied that is WRONG: If Turkey turns towards the Muslim world, it will be other countries that will follow Turkey's example, not vice versa.. No offence to any Arabs or anything, but a nation with the legacy of an empire and a secular revolution is not going to follow in the footsteps of a bunch of bedouins with a lot of camels and a lot of oil. The country that abolished even the caliphate is not going to start developing nukes like some village-dwelling presidents of some countries are doing. The legacy of Turkey's secular revolution as a model for muslim-world development is mentioned as an example by all arab intellectuals to this day.. Baristarim 03:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As for Erdogan, yeah well, we will see who will prevail: the new Primo General (supported by a majority of Turks) or him.. If I were a gambler, I would know on whom not to make a bet :)). Erdogan is not a hard-core Islamist in any case, he is moderate - i have seen worse :)) his rhetoric only goes as much trying to allow the hijab in schools etc. The hard-core islamist vote in turkey is around 7-10 percent, just fyi.. Baristarim 03:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Which slurs of all are you referring to? --Tzekai 06:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry that you took it that way.. I was just trying to make a point, and I just don't like being politically correct.. You know that the age of all those great thinkers and scientists has passed a thousand years ago, I was referring to our era.. A thousand years is a lot of time, you know. In any case, back then they didn't consider themselves as Arabs, concept of nation didn't exist back then. About Iran, if you read carefully, I was only referring to its President. OTOH, I can't be too sympathetic with a nation that has elected him with a 60 percent vote.. There were no slurs intended, I have LIVED for years in Saudi Arabia, that statement is exactly true.. You have not experienced the HELL that exists there, fortunately for you :)).. It might be POV, but it is the truth.. Did you know that they WHIP (20 lashes to be exact, with a whip 4 metres long) people there for drinking a beer?? I have seen people have their hands chopped off before my eyes for stealing. If you don't believe me, take a trip to Saudi Arabia :)) You will come back running and not utter a word about Ibni Sina again :) What I said was an understatement Baristarim 08:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Dude, that was slashdot-style flaimbait. You could have just ignored me. Anyway, it seems my sense of humor is seriously degrading after long studing hours... --Michalis Famelis (talk) 10:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry, i was tired too :)) Baristarim 16:01, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Al-Qaeda's hand? 

message: I just wanted to reply to something specific that Hectorian said above: without history, there is no future..we have to learn to live with it.... You see, that's a very wrong way of looking at things.. There is no dispute as to the fact that there were huge ethnic strifes during the World War in the eastern Med (it was a world war :)), but to label everything that has happened a genocide is also historical revisionism.. I am sorry but, this habit of going back centuries and bringing out old ghosts out of the closet is extremely worrying, and not just here.. So Hectorian, we have to learn history, true, but we also shouldn't keep going back to events that happened a century ago, reheating them in the oven, changing their flavors (renaming to genocide in this case) and expecting others to eat it.. Every single time the argument gets hot, the debate shifts to completely irrelevant issues.. There are allegations that: massacre-denialist, hellenistic fascists, pan-turkist fascists (maybe not in those words, but the implications are clearly there) etc.. So I want to come back to the origin of the dispute: the title, in the sense that, why is what happened a genocide?? The fact that what happened to Ponti is a genocide is such a minority POV held by Greeks, certain milk-out-the-vote politicians in Greece and six US states (that pass thousands of non-sense resolutions every year, any american would know this) and, officially, Greece.. There is absolotuley no reference to this in the academic world, in ANY country.. I am giving it to everyone again: the textbooks of all the school and universities of the whole world, none of them refer to it as a genocide.. Baristarim 03:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Academic sources have been cited, despite your insistence on ignoring them, and no academic sources contradicting have been cited (who would have thought it!). This is the most common way of referring to these events, like it or not, and no Bozkurt-style form of genocide denial is likely to ever change that. BTW if you think I am Miskin, all you need do is ask an admin to perform an IP check, although I feel obliged to inform you that you're in for a disappointing rude awakening if you do. --Tzekai 06:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, well calling everyone that asks for proof to validate these events as a genocide a bozkurt won't get you anywhere Te Zekai Bey, FYI i am an atheist, and I am sure that an extremely educated man such as yourself would know that atheists don't become bozkurts, nor do the bozkurts want them to do so.. Second of all, I don't care that you are miskin, or anyone else for that matter :)).. And calling everyone a denialist won't get you nowhere, kahvede tavla oynamiyoruz canim benim.. Baristarim 06:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Evidence has been presented above and all over the article, sevgili. It's you who refuses to look at it, and doesn't cite any evidence proving otherwise. --Tzekai 07:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked at all the evidence sevgili t-az zeka-i bey, reception of a letter is what proves that it was genocide along with three websites with dodgy designs?? are you joking? You know, I don't know where your beef with Turks come from, but just take it out somewhere else please.. As I pointed out in Archive 2, I feel sorry that Greek politicians exploited this for votes.. As Politis was mentioning the end of Hellenism in Asia Minor (or something like that) somewhere above, that's an admittal of the real purpose of this article's title: caress the national wounds of Greece and feel better about the end of Hellenism in Anatolia by getting sympathy..I am sorry but, don't deny that the term genocide serves this purpose.. Now people have something to shift the blame from the failed policies of Greek politicians and army commanders of the time: the barbaric genocidal Turks.. Hey, we didn't lose the war because Kemal and Turks were better, we lost because they came with their horses like the Huns and butchered us, yeah whatever...Baristarim 08:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I understand why some people in greece love this word, it is a feel-good word, it just stops them from delving into their own past and finding the people responsable for their own fate, namely their inapt policies, too much dependance in Britain, too much self-confidence, utter bankruptcy of the Megali Idea.. megali idea was as racist as pan-turkism, maybe it was megali idea responsable, no?? If you attack a country and try to conquer even their capital with the stated aim of turning back the clock a thousand years and wiping away the Turkish presence in Anatolia, that's exactly what happens.. yeah, cling onto your silly title, I will cling onto my Istanbul, one of the most beautiful and oldest cities in the world.. A good trade I believe :)) Baristarim 08:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Same goes for the fire of Smyrna: yeah the Turks just walked into the city with nothing better to do on a fine Sunday morning and they suddenly said hey, let's some burn greek houses.. Whatever, if the Greek armies try to march to Ankara to turn back the clock a thousand years and wipe out the Turkish presence in Anatolia again and when the time of reckoning comes, I might do a bit more then just burn a couple of houses.. I am sure you would do the same if Turkish armies marched onto Athens to wipe out the Hellenic presence in Greece.. Common sense.. That's why it is called a war, and not a genocide - these are all side-effects and viciouc cycles that are caused by war.. A genocide is when ethnic cleansing and massacres happen with pre-meditation, go to a law school and learn the difference.. Baristarim 09:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: yeah whatever.. As for Versailles treaty, it wasn't only Hitler that found it unfair, he just exploited popular feelings for his own ends, everyone knows this.. The communist party of germany (second biggest at the time) found it unfair, and so do all modern historians and politicians.. That is no comparision.. Extremist elements in Turkey?? You are joking right?? You mean the whole Turkish nation (along with Kurds at the time actually) disagreed.. Yeah, the Turks were just going to lay down, leave their homes and the world stage, and go back to Central Asia, right?? Whatever :))))))) your method of comparision shows how much anger you have battled up against the Turks, it is mind boggling.. Comparing the Turks who were fighting the Greek army that had marched 60km to their capital with the Nazis?? That's wishful thinking my boy, the blame of Greek defeat lies only with the inapt Greek commanders and politicians (in fact it lies with the fact that Kemal was better, but let's not go into that).. Greek self-defence in Asia Minor?? Smyrna was a Turkish city for a thousand years before the Greeks set foot in 1919 as pawns of the Brits.. And it has a lot do with that war, some people are just looking for a scapegoat for the failed ideal of Megali Idea, that's what this is about.. Neither can they accept (truly accept that is) that Megali Idea was racist as much the Nazi ideals.. My examples are much more valid than yours t-az zeka-i bey.. :)) Baristarim 09:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I had no idea that the term academic had such a 'wider' usage; this is the first time I come across such a definition; I am aware of 'UN experts', rather than 'UN academics'. But I take your point. Politis 16:16, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Again

message: ANY of the following acts:
#Killing members of the group; 
#Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; 
#Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, 
#Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; 
#and forcibly transferring children of the group (janissaries Ottoman practice).
:Colleague. We are not here to interpret laws. By your logic, every war is bilateral genocide: members of one group are laborously and diligently killing members of other group. Also I have never heard that devshirmeh was called "genocide". `'mikka (t) 22:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To put another nation into slavery is not genocide. `'mikka (t) 22:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: That's not a genocide! It has to be recognised by the UN! It's just a series of coincidential unorganised massacres reported by the POV-est medium of the time: The New York Times! Seriously, guys, NO compromise. Proceed according to WP:DR or live with it. •NikoSilver• 20:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ha! I just noticed why The NY Times got their first Pulitzer prize...•NikoSilver• 20:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I read that report.. I still have the impression that we are not connecting here about the difference between genocide/massacre.. In any case, by the concensus that was reached in this page it is clear that there aren't any books devoted to this subject.. You know, I have one question for you guys: Why on earth did you guys wait so much, maybe if you had acted a long time ago (ie before even the children of people who lived back then have died), maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion about the lack of academic research (not just news reports).. Seriously, that's the thing that beats my mind before anything.. I apologize if I am more than skeptical when I see this ghost coming out of the closet EIGTHY years later.. all the excuses given don't mean anything, there was a huge Greek diaspora in other countries, at least some academicians among them could have started investigating what happened EARLIER.. If we are having this debate right now, it is still the fault of Greeks who waited so long (for whatever reason) to take them out of the fridge and put them into the oven.. I mean, how would you have felt if Turkey had recognized a genocide committed by Greeks only ten years ago (just imagining folks) - even if the claims seemed to have some sources, you would still be skeptical, right?? That's all i am saying.. Others have a legitimate right to wonder what the hell is going on?? How am I supposed to be sure that this is not some old-fashioned nationalist rhetoric making a comeback with some sauce of historical revisionism?????? Baristarim 22:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Everyone was silent about the genocide because we were afraid of the Turkish reaction. After we joined the EU however, and Turkey applied to join, we gained confidence ;-) --Tzekai 22:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we all know that it is still the fault of Greeks who waited so long... it was our fault first place (cause the Pontian Greeks were non-mislims non-turks), it is now (cause we are bringing the case into world)... so, meanwhile it was our fault too... it could not had happened somehow else, could it? (sarcasm) Hectorian 23:53, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: hmm :)) I crossed it out.. That was not what I had meant Baristarim 16:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Genocide]] is