Talk:Tunisian campaign

message: "Actions then settled for a time, and both sides studied the results of recent battles. Rommel remained convinced that the U.S. forces posed little threat, while the British were his equal. He held this opinion for far too long, and it would prove very costly in the future. The U.S. likewise studied the battle, and decided a complete overhaul of their forces was required. Tanks were upgraded to the Sherman as soon as they arrived, new communications rules were installed to allow artillery batteries to combine fire across commands and some commanders were replaced. On 6 March command of the II Corps passed from Fredendall to George Patton, with Omar N. Bradley as assistant Corps Commander. "
I edited out portions of this, which were then restored. Here's why: 
1. "A complete overhaul" of US forces obviously was not required nor was it carried out, so I thought that was a poor choice of words. Nothing changed in US Infantry Division organization, for example. Indeed US Inf Div organization remained essentially unchanged for the rest of the war. US armored divisions were re-organized in 1942-43, but not as a result of anything in Tunisia. Indeed the 1st Armored Div was already using Combat Commands in place of Brigade or regimental HQs during the battle. Artillery, the most effective US combat arms branch, was very effective. The weapons and procedures of the 1930s were confirmed and improved. Most Division commanders remained. The main changes were a new Corps commander and new 1st Armored Div commander, and the reminder to commanders to keep large units concentrated. This had the (long intended) effect of centralizing the artillery fire control system as it had been designed, so that fires could be massed. There were some "lessons learned" publications, but that hardly justifies the term "complete overhaul". 
2. In terms of equipment changes, the objective had alwasy been to make the Sherman the major/sole US medium tank. The M-3 was a interim design. The plan was always to replace it with the M-4 series and this had nothing to do with Tunisia. if there had been no fighting at all in Tunisia the M-3s still would have been phased out. Likewise the M-3 TDs were shown to be ineffective, but they were also a stopgap design and the M-10 was already in production and in the field in the spring of 1943. 
I thought the new edit was actually *more* specific and accurate than the vague content that preceeded it. Please let me know if you agree. DMorpheus 17:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you.  I reverted it not out of complete disagreement, but that I didn't understand why it was done (your edit summary didn't mention it).  I think we should have some "lessons learned" stuff, but agree that as it is may be extreme.  I'm away from my references, but areas we might want to cover is 1) air coordination, 2) Divisional cohesion and (maybe) 3) something about the use of Ultra intelligence (I believe the head of intelligence in the theatre was relieved as well).  Feel free to revert my revert if you like and I will come back later to put a first pass in of a less extreme list of changes.  -- Ironic: the one division commander relieved (Orlando Ward) was involved in developing the successful artillery procedures! John (Jwy) 17:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Right you are, but Ward's work in artillery was done in the 1930s. I guess I didn't go into a lot of detail on US force changes because it would simply duplicate what I wrote in Battle of the Kasserine Pass and Lloyd Fredendall it seems more at home there somehow. Since the link exists already I figured this article could stay brief.DMorpheus 18:47, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Complete overhaul" Sherman / equipment upgrade 

message: Removed reference to "M3 Patton". I don't think it existed: the Patton was M46, etc; the M3 was a precursor of the M4. I linked it to the M3 Lee artivle - is this correct? Folks at 137 14:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, they were M3 Stuart light tanks, although there's no way you'd know that from the context given. Gotta love US Army nomenclature. DMorpheus 15:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: M3 tank

message: I changed "Nazi Germany" to "Germany" and "Fascist Italy" to "Italy". The point has been debated elsewhere and, since there were no other German or Italian states, the adjectives are unnecessary - the German Nazis and Italian Fascists formed the legitimate governments. Also, I changed "Free France" to "France". This is more interesting. By the time of this campaign, French forces formerly loyal to Vichy had rejoined the allies (including the French XIX Corps). French law is clear: only forces that fought with the allies before August 1 1942 may be called "Free French", after that date it's the "Forces of Liberation". Folks at 137 18:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid you're off by a year. Between the liberation of Tunisia and the summer of 1943, many individuals, frustrated at the slow re-organization of French troops in North Africa, defected (from now Allied troops, right?) to join the Free French, which was still by then an independent, London-based organization. Giraud and De Gaulle eventually agreed to merge North African troops with the Forces françaises libres , which was effective August 1st, 1943. French military assets elsewhere sided with the new Algiers-based authority in the following months, including the fleet interned in Alexandria, the forces in Senegal, but with the exception of Indochina. But of course, former Vichy troops who had turned against the Axis in Tunisia in early 1943 were not part of the FFF - many of them probably still considered De Gaulle a traitor by then! PpPachy 21:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the "Free French Forces" back to "France" for the reason listed above, which other than the year off, is mostly correct. The Free French and French XIX Corps were different organizations, and only in common colloquially speech is the latter referred to as "Free French". The Algiers government under Admiral Darlan and then General Giraud was recognized by the allies as "France", while "Free France" under de Gaulle was still essentially a rebel organization (unless you take the word of the Gaullists that consider Free France to have been a continuation of sorts of the Third Republic). While the French XIX Corps was a part of the British First Army for the Tunisian Campaign, it was directly answerable to the Algiers government and considered among Allied sources as the "French Army", while the Free French (Leclerc Column and 1st Free French Brigade) were considered little more than volunteers in the British Eighth Army in the Allied high command. "France" and the "Free French" in this split sense would not be combined until June 1st 1943, when Giraud and de Gaulle merged to form the French Committee of National Liberation (by which time the Leclerc Column and Free French Brigade were merged to form the "First Free French Division"). Point is, from a political, legal, and military standpoint, the major third ally in the Tunisian Campaign was the re-allied French North Africa (officially recognized as "France" by even the Axis, which essentially considered France to be at war with them again, hence Case Anton and also hence why the mainland Vichy government, having lost its legitimacy and legality in aforementioned Case Anton occupation, became little more than a mouthpiece for Berlin post-November 1942), and not "Free French Forces".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.175.163 (talk) 00:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, which France is this?  The History of France recognizes it went Third Republic --> Vichy --> Provisional; of which none apply.  Considering that they certainly weren't under the command of Paris, I find the claim of the French forces in North Africa to represent "France" dubious. I would instead call them French North African, or just list both the Free French and the French XIX Corps. Oberiko (talk) 03:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  XIX corps was under the French authority in North Africa headed by Darlan and Giraud, which in 1943 became the French Committee of National Liberation and in 1944 the Provisional Government of the French Republic. But since France was at war with Germany and the armistice had practically been terminated, this question is not really significant. PpPachy (talk) 10:04, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The French Committee of National Liberation is irrelevant, it wasn't formed until after the Tunisia Campaign was over; just because they eventually succeeded and the organization retook France doesn't mean that at the time they were France.  I think we'd be better of using French Army of Africa, as that leaves no ambiguity. Oberiko (talk) 14:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The 'Belligerents' paragraph lists nations, not specific military organizations. Besides, that would be too restrictive, because French units that were not part of the Armée d'Afrique (including squadrons of the Armée de l'Air) took part in the Tunisia campaign. PpPachy (talk) 15:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Many of our belligerents list specific organizations, especially in cases where a nation is far to vague.  My argument is that "France" is far to broad, especially when multiple organizations claimed to be representative of France.  Who exactly did these squadrons report to?  Obviously, some of them were of the Free French Air Force, what were the others? Oberiko (talk) 16:58, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it's a matter of nationality, not organization. Read any decent book about the Tunisia campaign (such as Atkinson's Army at dawn), they refer to French troops being just that, "French". Air units that took part in the Tunisia campaign were not Free French, though the article you linked to erroneously lists GC 2/7 as being a Free French unit. Like the Armée d'Afrique, these units reported to the French authorities in Algiers, not to the Free French authorities.  PpPachy (talk) 20:30, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "French" is not equal to "France"; the Vichy were French, the French Algerian were French, the Free French were French etc..  It seems like French Algeria or French North Africa would be the best solution. Oberiko (talk) 23:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As I'm sure you know, none of the governments were at Paris. In short, there were three governments claiming to be France in November 1942: the Algiers government, still commonly referred to as "Vichy" and under Admiral Darlan (and then General Giraud), the mainland government located in Vichy, and the Free French. As I explained way back up there, only hardcore Gaullists who considered the Free French to have been a continuation of the Third Republic would see the Free French as "France" rather than (essentially rebel) volunteers to the Allied effort. On the other hand, the violation of the armistice via Case Anton and subsequent occupation of the Free Zone made the mainland Vichy government no longer legitimate or legal (the change in Vichy policies to become little more than a Berlin mouthpiece is evident post-Case Anton). Concerning the "History of France" article, you have to keep in mind that here we are not talking of France from a regional point of view ("metropolitan France", which is what "France" primarily comprises of today) but "France" from a legal, international, governmental point of view (this refers to the entirety of the French Empire and governments-in-exile). Concerning the legality of the Algiers government, it should be noted that the last communications before contact was cut between Vichy and Algiers had Laval and Petain appoint General Nogues as Admiral Darlan's replacement, but General Nogues submitted himself to Darlan's command (and the last communication from Vichy essentially stated that Darlan would be re-instated, on Nogues' recommendation). So for all intents and purposes, the Algiers government throughout the Tunisian Campaign was merely a legal continuation of the Vichy government (the Vichy mainland itself, under the occupation of an enemy state, no longer being legal). The Allies recognized this Darlan government as "France" (nevermind Britain's recognition of de Gaulle as leader of all Free Frenchmen), and indeed the Axis treated it as such; the trashing of the armistice meant that France was from a legal point of view, in active war again with Germany, and due to circumstances, only the Algiers government could do this. The primary reason to consider the CFLN under de Gaulle post-1943 to have been the government of said "France" is because of its combination with this Algiers government (although as you said, the CFLN has nothing to do with the Tunisian Campaign).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.183.217 (talk) 08:55, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Combatants

message: I noticed at one point in the article regarding some questionable figures. I quote: "Allfrey was still concerned over the vulnerability of his force and ordered a further withdrawal west so that by the end of 10 December Allied units held a defensive line just east of Medjez el Bab. This string of Allied defeats in December cost them dearly; over men 62,000 missing (prisoners of war), 173 tanks, 432 other vehicles, and 170 artillery pieces lost." I read the book "An Army at Dawn," and I'm pretty sure the figures for material losses are correct, but 62,000 Allied POWS doesn't seem right to me, as that would constitute a disastrous defeat by anyone's definition. I'm almost positive that this figure is actually total Allied casualties through the entire Tunisian campaign, though I may be wrong. Can I get some verification on this?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.26.67.199 (talk) 03:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Figures

message: What were the casualties for all sides.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.65.163.248 (talk) 12:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Casualties

message: Free French definition from the article about them:
Historically, an individual became Free French after he enlisted in de Gaulle's Free French organisation located in London. Free French units are units formed by these people. De Gaulle's organisation stopped accepting members in mid-1943 as Free French forces were merging with the French forces in North Africa, and the Comité français de libération nationale (CFLN) was set up in Algiers.
Postwar, to settle disputes over the Free French heritage, the French government issued an official definition of the term. Under this "ministerial instruction of July 1953" (instruction ministérielle du 29 juillet 1953), only those who served with the Allies after the Franco-German armistice in 1940 and before 1 August 1943 may correctly be called "Free French".
French forces after July 1943 are therefore correctly designated as the "forces of Liberation".
Hence up to July 1943, there Free French, post July CFLN.
According to the article on Vichy France:
Vichy France, or the Vichy regime are the common terms used to describe the government of France from July 1940 to August 1944.
To my understanding, there is still two French entities here. One also should note it appears that it appears some colonies were still under Vichy control at this time and had not sided with the "Free French".  Simply stating they were French troops fighting in Tunisia is just avoiding the, at that moment in time, split - Vichy and Frenchmen fighting on the allied side - the "Free French"
--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 11:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  We've discussed the issue already higher on this page and elsewhere. In French, France Libre or français libres designated a specific London-based organization headed by De Gaulle. An individual could enlist in that organization, but being French and serving against the Axis after June 1940 did not make you a member of it. There were French individuals in the British forces, then after "Torch" whole French units on the Allied side, who were never part of the français libres. OTOH the English-language literature, including wartime sources, often calls "Free French" any Allied French after June 1940. We have to decide: either "Free French" is the translation of "français libre", or it has a different, broader meaning in English! PpPachy (talk) 11:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The discussion above did not reach any agreement and it states several times that labeling all the Frenchmen - France is too broad and invalid.
According to the French government, as stated on the Free French article and quoted above:
"only those who served with the Allies after the Franco-German armistice in 1940 and before 1 August 1943 may correctly be called "Free French"."
From what ive seen, colonies across the world sided with the "Free French" as opposed to the "Vichy French" - they didnt literally go and sign up in London with De Gaulle.
In common English, from what i have seen - "Free French" is the same as the term sometimes used for the Poles still fighting-  "Free Poles" etc - exiles fighting for there country.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Actually, almost no French colonies sided with de Gaulle. They viewed the Vichy government as the lagal and continuing government of France and aligned with Vichy until such time as they were invaded and defeated (e.g. Syria / Lebanon) or when the Vichy territory in metropolitan France was occupied by the Germans at the time of Torch. Under the terms of the French decree of 1953 the forces fighting with First Army are clearly Free French. However, Wkipedia editors habitually associate Free French with the French flag with the cross of Lorraine (which was a de Gaulle construct). The ex-Vichy forces in Tunisia would not have fought under this flag (but the French force fighting with 8th Army, would have) and, as stated above, the politics was not really sorted out until mid 1943. So in summary, I guess that the XIX Corps troops were Free French but should not have the cross of Lorraine flag. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 13:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe the list of combatants needs to include both the Free French elements of 8th Army (cross of Lorraine flag) and the non-Free French of 1st Army (standard French flag). After all, they were completely separate entities at the time. PpPachy (talk) 14:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is where an additional level of confusion is coming in.  Your referring to the Gaullist troops as "The Free French" and Frenchmen not collaborating but not signed up with de Gaulle, as not Free French fighters whereas it appears the rest of us and even France itself calls them all - weather or not they supported de Gaulle - Free French.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:29, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The confusion is not new, as it existed already during the war. Well-documented sources - for example Atkinson's an army at dawn, on the battle of Tunisia - do not refer as French forces formerly under Vichy - namely XIX corps - as being "Free French". An interesting non-French view on the "French vs. Free French" issue is R.W. Sampson's Spitfire offensive - the author was in command of 145 Wing RAF, that featured both Free (340, 341) and non-Free (345, 329) French squadrons. PpPachy (talk) 16:27, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to agree with EnigmaMcmxc here on using the official French definition; one certainly can't call it inaccurate or original research.  We can explain the intricacies of "French" allegiances on the respective articles (Free French, Military history of France during World War II, Army of Africa (France), etc.). Oberiko (talk) 16:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unfortunately, what EnigmaMcmxc quoted is not an official French definition, the Free French article needs to be corrected too :) PpPachy (talk) 16:27, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So if the articles on France and the Free French are both incorrect, what is correct term for Frenchmen who carried on the fight and did not collaborate? If the Free French article is also incorrect, what about the quote which has been shown above which attributed to the French govnt?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 08:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: PpPachy is right. The definition is incorrect, and the term "Free French" strictly applies only to those who joined the London-based de Gaulle movement (correct up until the combination of the two military forces, hence the date of August 1943). The French government's official military history of the Tunisia Campaign, for example, is composed of two volumes. The first focuses on all the desert actions of the "Free French" in the Eighth Army and the Leclerc column, while the second is strictly on the Vichy North African Army during the Tunisia Campaign. The first is labeled "Free French" while the second volume does not at any point describe the Vichy forces as such. Quite frankly, the standards of all the Wikipedia articles concerning this confusion of political and military entities of France in the Second World War is rather low. The use of the term "Free French" to designate the re-Allied French of North Africa or, technically even the army of the liberation, is only colloquial. The proper designation of the French XIX Corps, is "France", as it was essentially recognized all around. Even the US-UK propaganda documentary "Tunisian Victory" on the Tunisia Campaign makes the clear distinction between the two French factions.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.159.181 (talk) 02:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Free French 

message: There was a regiment of (light ?) tanks attached to the 78th division from the 6th Armoured Brigade. Did they play any role in the campaign? Koakhtzvigad (talk) 23:50, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess that would be 17/21 Lancers which formed part of Blade Force. Their activities are described in the Run for Tunis article. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 23:22, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  78th Division attachments 

message: I see that they have been added to the beligerents. I can't find any references to either in Tunisia (although both were at the siege of Tobruk). I thought the Independent Carpathian Rifle Brigade left the Western Desert in March 42 for Palestine where they were disbanded to be reformed into a larger 3rd Carpathian Rifle Division and later Polish II Corps. The Polish force did not see action again until the Italian Campaign. Not sure about the Czechs. They only had a single battalion in the desert. Either way, unless some firm citations are available, I think they should both come out of the infobox. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 23:32, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poland and Greece 

message: This is a very interesting article. However, as a layman, although it is plain which are allied and which are axis forces, I have no idea over which divisions/regiments/corps belong to which paticular nationality. In some cases it is done, but as it has been written by someone who has detailed knowledge of the battles, there is an assumption that laymen will know who was who. Would someone be able to identify them please ie the British 1st Army, the French so and so division, the German this and that corps? Thank you. Brixtonboy (talk) 22:40, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationalities 

message: This text has been extensively copied from    At the Front in North Africa with the U.S. Army Part 3, 1943.  The same text is noted at other internet locations.  Plagiarism is against Wikipedia policy:  see WP:PLAGIARISM.  Text derived from official government sources is not a copyright violation, but should be clearly identified in the citations.Fconaway (talk) 02:16, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd love to check this but the link you give comes up "The requested video could not be found or has been marked as private". Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 08:36, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Copying

message: I have once again changed "well-held" to "strongly-held." The former sounds rather awkward.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Isoruku (talk • contribs) 19:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Well-held"? 

message: I think there are too many which cramp the margin but some sections of the article are sketchy and when expanded will make more room. I tried shrinking a few but it doesn't look any better.Keith-264 (talk) 16:28, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur; I placed some on the left margin as well as right to balance the look some time ago. When the expansion is in place then will add more. Shire Lord  (talk) 16:48, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd rather have fewer, better ones and keep to the right margin.Keith-264 (talk) 17:35, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I will stick to that. Shire Lord  (talk) 18:56, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos and maps 

message: The photograph which begins: "A British Crusader III tank crosses a ditch at Mersa Matruh, Libya..." falls into the 'fewer is better' category as noted above. Both the original and the article captions have the same content. 
Mersa Matruh is at least 1,000 miles from Tunisia.
It is arguably not really connected to the Tunisia campaign. 
Its deletion would be no loss.
(Were the 8th Army still using Crusaders when Tunisia fell?)
RASAM (talk) 15:58, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dodgy picture 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
*Oppose Tunisian connotes of or pertaining to Tunisia.... and Tunisia Campaign suggests campaign in Tunisia. Keith-264 (talk) 23:06, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The published authors above do not seem to agree with you. Srnec (talk) 19:15, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In the fact-box under 'Tunisian Campaign', shouldn't Enfidaville be included? Valetude (talk) 18:46, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enfidaville? 

message: should vichy france be included among the combatants as the Légion impériale was a vichy french unit under german command? Capt Jim (talk) 17:49, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  vichy 

message: Text reads something on the lines of "... to see Hitler at his headquarters in Ukraine" (Source for that?, or just someone's trolling?) 80.71.142.55 (talk) 14:49, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a source for the paragraph, but I don't have it to see if it references the Ukraine, but the Ukraine mention has been in the article since early in its existence - and Hitler did have a Ukrainian HQ, so I don't doubt a source could be found.  --John (User:Jwy/talk) 15:58, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Battle of Medenine