Talk:Battle of Fei River

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Battle of Fei River. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060219003834/http://ef.cdpa.nsysu.edu.tw:80/ccw/02/jin12.htm to http://ef.cdpa.nsysu.edu.tw/ccw/02/jin12.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071011082221/http://ef.cdpa.nsysu.edu.tw:80/ccw/02/jin08.htm to http://ef.cdpa.nsysu.edu.tw/ccw/02/jin08.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060219003834/http://ef.cdpa.nsysu.edu.tw:80/ccw/02/jin12.htm to http://ef.cdpa.nsysu.edu.tw/ccw/02/jin12.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:01, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Battle of Fei River. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060219003156/http://ef.cdpa.nsysu.edu.tw/ccw/02/jin01.htm to http://ef.cdpa.nsysu.edu.tw/ccw/02/jin01.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:33, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Before the outbreak of the Battle of Feishui, in the face of the fierce offensive of Former Qin, the Eastern Jin Dynasty suffered repeated defeats and lost Sichuan, Nanyang, and land north of the Huai River. The Battle of Water and Water was the main battlefield of the Qin-Jin War at that time, and there were also fierce battles on the Western Front. Former Qin sent a total of 1.12 million troops, while the Eastern Jin Dynasty sent only 200,000 troops, most of them on the western front, although the eastern front was the main force of the Qin army.
At that time, the commander of the western front of the Eastern Jin Dynasty was Huan Chong, who heard that the main forces of Former Qin were on the eastern front, and planned to transfer troops to reinforce the eastern front, but Xie An refused, Xie An asked Huan Chong to be in charge of the western front, and he could deal with the affairs of the eastern front himself. Despite this, Huan Chong was still apprehensive in his heart, saying: "Huaxia is really going to be ruled by the Hu people. ”
Before the outbreak of the war, the senior generals in the Eastern Jin Dynasty thought that they would lose, but in the end, they miraculously won under the command of Xie Xuan, which can be called a miracle in military history. 李双能 (talk) 04:37, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Having some idea of the history between the Xie and Huan families leading up to this point, I'm not surprised Xie Xuan didn't want to share command with Huan Chong.And while the Jin victory here was certainly important, I'm not sure we should call it miraculous. We shouldn't trust too closely the troop estimates carried by the early sources, particularly the Jin Shu (we already have a footnote from a modern historian who calls the numbers "greatly exaggerated"). It was pretty common practice back in the day to overcount by a large margin the number of opposing troops, to make one's own victory seem that much more outstanding, or to make one's own defeat sound more reasonable. I remember reading that when dealing with bandits and brigands, it was common to inflate the number of people captured or killed by a factor of ten. And it went both ways too: prior to military engagement, leaders on opposing sides would state they had way more troops at their disposal than in reality, in order to convince cities or entire polities to submit without a fight.A second thing is that from how all the records state, the call went up that the Qin army had been defeated, and repeating it enough made it so. Early armies rarely had great discipline, and it was often the charisma and strictness of their own leaders that kept them on the team at all. People were press-ganged, conscripted as corvée, or had joined for wages, food, and a chance at plunder. Here's this huge mass of men far from their homes, fearful for their lives, and they hear the that they've lost and are retreating? Not much reason to keep fighting, especially when their opponents had actual training and experience and morale.A third problem is actually how big the force was. Even though it almost definitely wasn't a million, it was certainly a very significant crowd, and when you have that many poorly disciplined troops all in the same place at the same time they get in each other's way more than they harrass the enemy forces. It's extremely difficult to perform an organised falling-back manoeuvre in a huge crowd without something going awry or being misinterpreted. There's a whole discursus in Imperial Warlord, 2010, by Rafe de Crespigny that talks about all these issues in the context of premodern warfare. It's a biography of Cao Cao, so it's situated close to two hundred years previous, but it almost all still holds for this timeframe. It's published by Brill, so if you have Wikipedia Library access you can read the whole thing online for free. The bit on period warfare is about half a chapter somewhere in the middle of the book (right before Guandu, if I recall correctly). Having said all that, I do think a bit more of the background could be touched on in this article instead of just nearby articles. Do you have a particular source or sources you'd like to cite to include the information you proposed? I particularly think it would be a great idea to highlight how desperate the Jin position seemed before the battle, with all those cities upstream having been conquered, and mention the clan dynamics at play between Huan Chong and Xie Xuan. Folly Mox (talk) 03:28, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  There are several points that need to be added