Talk:World War II/Archive 22

message: People will never stop arguing over the relative importance of various countries and their contributions, so rather than endlessly discussing this, I would agree with the suggestions above to have a chronology-based list of countries (recreated below). The only other sensible alternative is simply to have Allied Powers and Axis Powers in the combatant section, with no countries explicitly named. When people follow the links, they will find the countries involved in each camp there. What are your thoughts? Brisvegas 10:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the idea : it's not based on arbitrary cut-off criteria, and it makes interesting information available in an compact manner (listing the USA and USSR in "Allies" is unlikely to teach anything to anyone, is it ?). Rama 10:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would prefer that over axis and allies, but not over a 3 v 5 or a 3v2.--LtWinters 16:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

text: To avoid edit wars, I suggest that we come to the "allies" and "axis" compromise once again, with links to pages, which would explain, in brief paragraphs, which allied/axis country contributed what. With respect, Ko Soi IX 23:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That idea doesn't sound too bad. --LtWinters 00:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: To prevent future edit wars is not the purpose of Wikipedia.  5v3 is best. Haber 02:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm inclined to agree. With maximum respect to everyone (the vast majority (with the exception of one or two) of whom have conducted themselves properly and in the Wiki spirit), it's depressingly obvious from recent exchanges that even now very few correspondents actually understand what this issue is about, despite the huge volume of debate that the topic has already generated. It is pointless continuing. Let Haber have his way- he has made it very clear that he is not willing to compromise and unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on one's point of view) editing WP depends on a spirit of cooperation and good will that is not in evidence here. I don't think the current state of the infobox matches consensus, I don't think it tallies with existing policy, I think it's unnecessarily misleading, and it certainly creates a confusing mismatch between en.WP and the other language encyclopaedias. The general debate has been carried out in an unnecessarily rancorous and internecine manner. I can't see anything that can be done about it now however. Let's hope that the infobox remains stable for now and perhaps is improved at some point in the future to more closely match consensus. Badgerpatrol 02:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Additionally, we list Hirohito, whose exact role between functional-head-of-state and figurehead is disputable. Oberiko 18:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Churchill wasn't the Prime Minister when the Second World War ended, but apart from that I fully agree. The current situation is confusing to the point of being misleading. But I really don't think there's anything we (=the majority) can do about it. Badgerpatrol 17:33, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, I was basing it off of V-E day, but more correctly should have used V-J day with Attlee as PM.  If the majority want it as Allies and Axis, what's the problem with changing it?  Revert wars? Oberiko 18:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Just as I'm passing through, can I just chip in that Churchill also wouldn't have been thought of as the "Commander" of British troops?  It's a nit-pick, but constitutionally, the King was the Colonel-in-Chief, "commander" is a genuine military rank in our army (and the US, as well), and the Prime Minister is not an officer at all.  I recognise what that section of the infobox is trying to say, but isn't "Leaders" (perhaps, even "Political leaders"?) a better way of saying it?  Wooster (talk) 14:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's also correct and I did think about mentioning it above. In the US, my understanding is that the President is the constitutional commander in chief of the armed forces, and I suspect the same may be true in France, modern Russia and the former USSR. In Britain, the monarch is constitutionally the "commander in chief". The PM has de facto executive powers (exercised on behalf of the crown), not de jure, and I'm not certain that he or she is even officially the highest ranking member of the cabinet (not only as a corollary of the "first among equals" convention but also because I think the Lord Chancellor may be higher in the order of precedence). Functionally of course, the Prime Minister is in real terms the most powerful politician in the country and, by convention, has de facto control over the armed forces, and this was the case during the Second World War as it is today. It's worth noting that Churchill was not the PM at the beginning of the war nor at the end of the war, if that means anything. All of this does add yet another extra layer of confusion to the issue however (a layer of confusion which could be easily removed....). Badgerpatrol 14:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I imagine that we'd have the same problems with Italy, just worse.  Not only would we have the "official" vs. "functional" head-of-state problem, but we'd compound it with the three instances of Italy in the war (Axis Kingdom of Italy run by Mussolini, Allied Kingdom of Italy run by Pietro Badoglio, and Axis Italian Social Republic run by Mussolini). Oberiko 15:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, that clears that one up. So we have King George VI for Britain. Or Winston Churchill. Or Neville Chamberlain. Or Viscount Alanbrooke. And President Roosevelt for America. Or Harry Truman. Or General Eisenhower. And for France it's obvious that we have Charles De Gaulle. Or Gamelin. Or Reynaud. Or Petain. And then for Italy it's obvious that we have [etc etc etc etc, for ever and ever and ever]. Badgerpatrol 11:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've started a discussion on the template talk page about this.  Because it would likely be same problem for other large conflicts (ie. World War I, Napoleonic Wars), we should probably try to find a standard to agree on. Oberiko 13:24, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To prevent future edit wars, shouldn't this be an all or nothing thing with the infobox?

message: Mr. IP address: please consider registering a username and signing your talk page comments. Doing so would make it a little easier to give your long winded comments the consideration they deserve. As it is, you compact so many ideas into such a small space, and you have a habit of thinly disguising your personal attacks that I fear few people will take you seriously. Xaxafrad 01:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pardon my point of view, but you yourself sound like a propaganda machine. Who's a baka guyjin? The Japanese military was a threat to a lot of people before August 1945. The fact is, it was easier for the Allies to starve the Japanese islands than it was for Hitler to starve Britain. Were the atomic bombs necessary? No: the Soviets could've continued their land grab for another few months, the Allies and Japanese could've gone to hand to hand combat should an invasion have been authorized, while the Chinese and Burmese people could've continued living in subservience to the Japanese Empire. Xaxafrad 07:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll be honest, I've only partially read the above walls of text, but they don't seem to be about improving the article.  User:130.127.73.253, can you sum up what exactly you'd like to change in the article and why?  If it's something major (which it seems to be), can you provide the sources of your claims? Oberiko 21:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confused unsigned comments 

message: Since the horrors of WWII are of such magnitude and spread all over the world, perhaps we should split the article into pacific and a european war. Or even in three parts: Europe western front/conflicts, europe eastern front and pacific. On the other hand, there still should be a general article.
It is arguable that the conflicts in the pacific and in europe didn't influence each other to a great extent. Central points, of course, must be the futility and waste, although it can also be argued that that is not being very encyclopedic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sikkema (talk • contribs) 
:If you look, there already are the split articles, at Pacific War, European Theatre of World War II, Eastern Front (World War II). The Pacific theatre has been split even further into Pacific Ocean theater of World War II, Second Sino-Japanese War, South-East Asian theatre of World War II, and South West Pacific theatre of World War II. 
:It is also arguable that the theatres did affect each other a great deal. For example, because the Soviets were comfortable with the non-aggression pact with Japan, they were able to withdraw their crack troops from Siberia, and send them to carry the day at Moscow. Without them, the Soviets might have lost the war. The British were stretched very thin between fighting the Germans in the Western theatre and trying to defend against Japan in Burma. We could imagine other what-if scenarios all day long relating to the dependence of one theatre on the other, but I don't feel like it at the moment. Parsecboy 00:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An encyclopedic treatment of World War II that supercedes, but doesn't impinge upon, the scope of over a dozen well developed sub-articles...Although World War II should be able to stand on it's own, without necessarily considering any sub-articles. Xaxafrad 04:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  splittig the article?  

message: Are the pre-war Italian maneuvers in Africa mentioned anywhere? I'm thinking the background/causes section needs some tweaking, including mention of the world depression. Xaxafrad 07:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK.c'mon, we've fished a good one. Me Page Talk to me 07:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.c'mon, we've fished a good one. Me Page Talk to me 11:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  African theater 

message: Parsecboy, let me talk to you. It is stated in the link that it is 72 million.c'mon, we've fished a good one. Me Page Talk to me 06:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is, that is just one source. In previous discussions about this issue, other sources saying 60 million, less than that, and between 60 and 72 have been presented, so there really is no set, commonly accepted figure for the number of casualties. 60 million is in the middle, and saying "more than 60 million" encompasses most of the figures. Parsecboy 10:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Parsecboy, I feel what we have now is perfect, about a month ago I had been trying to get them to change those stats on the ww2 casualties page (I disagree with the title, because a casualty is someone dead, wounded, missing, or a POW, and we only list those dead), and the editors mainly concerned with that article won't budge, but on the page it is mentioned that there are other esimates much less than that so yeah...--LtWinters 13:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 'kay then.c'mon, we've fished a good one. Me Page Talk to me 05:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hey 

message: What Russia? If anyone has any evidence that a certain "Russia" existed as an independent entity, please let me know or else change it to "Soviet" and stop this embarassing mistake. At present I ain't bold enough to change it.Tourskin 20:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just went and replaced most cases of "Russia" by "Soviet Union", but I'm not certain whether it's always the best choice. Generally it's not appropriate to speak about Russia or Russians in a WWII article unless it's a very specific case (the Moscow is situated in Russia, Kiew isn't kind...). I'm not sure when all these "Russias" crept into the article, they certainly weren't there in earlier versions of the earticle I recall.--Caranorn 20:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russia's armored fist 

message: I really feel the article's length is fine right now, even when it was at 164,000 kb like a month ago. Why is it important that we keep the article short?--LtWinters 19:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Attention span. When the guys from the Featured Article review committee get here, they have to go over the whole article. If the article is much over 50kb, it almost doesn't matter about the other qualities. However, in this case, I feel WW2 should be an exception. Unfortunately, I think the eastern front is disproportionately developed, probably at the expense of the Asian front, and there is a dearth of references. Once those issues have been addressed, getting FA status should be a snap. Xaxafrad 20:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree in the belief that there's to much detail in here.  A lot of it can safely be trimmed back without damaging the core of the article. Oberiko 21:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreeing with Xaxafrad, World War II is a article that just has too be long. The ASian front, I think as well, is a little short. c'mon, we've fished a good one. Me Page Talk to me 22:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Length 

message: Take a look at the Infobox... any thoughts? I had been thinking about our 'discussion' last time, and I was thinking, how about for major combatants, they be the nations that if they were not involved or quickly run over, then the axis would have won? Ex. If the Free French did not participate in the allied compaign, we still would have won. --LtWinters 14:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's OR to say if the Allies would have won or not without a specific nationality.  Could the Allies have won without the U.S.?  Possibly.  Could the Allies have won without Canada's intervention in the Battle of the Atlantic?  Maybe not.  No one can say for certain.  There's also the other problem of applying the same standard to the Axis Powers. Oberiko 14:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea, you're right because we'll just argue endlessly again about that... I added the USSR to the axis because they did invade Poland with Germany and also invaded Finland unprovoked, they were axis until 1941. --LtWinters 16:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Infobox looks a lot more confusing than the usual 5x3, to be honest. I don't know if it's a good idea to duplicate info from the huge WWII template box at the bottom of the page to the originally succinct top infobox.
FDR died in the duration of the war too, why not a cross? Is it reserved for KIA only? Blueshirts 17:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd prefer not to see the crosses at all; this is the first infobox I've noticed them in. What is their exact meaning? Xaxafrad 17:41, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

text: But I can already hear the Canadians and Australians: why are our countries in alphabetical order, while the big 5vs3 are in what looks like a random order, but is actually a rough ranking of military-industrial contribution. I took the preemptive liberty of alphabetizing everybody; it doesn't seem much worse. Though I wonder if Iraq and/or Iran could be considered a co-belligerent of the Allies. What do people think of adding (government-in-exile) notes? Xaxafrad 18:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If nothing else, I think we should at least have the big 3 vs 3 in alphatethical order on top of each listing... 96T 18:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I feel it's stupid to have the list of all combatants if it's only supposed to be major combatants. I agree with xaxafrad to give it a bit of time and see how it does. --LtWinters 18:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps, yet again must the "allies and axis" compromise be given a thought? With respect, Ko Soi IX 14:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox... again 

message: I don't know if this has been explored before, but exactly what would have happened if the allies had lost the war?.Would it mean Europe would be under controll by the nazis, or a more globall impact.Like Todat, would most of europe be a single sovern nation? 192.30.202.20 20:30, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible outcome 

message: Ive never edited wikipedia before and dont intend to, but as an avid reader of the site, especially the WW2 articles, I must say that the Axis soldiers are not represented enough graphically in the article. Out of the 4 pictures showing German soldiers (Not counting politicians) 2 are dead and maimed. There are no Italians/Romanians/Finns and there was a single Japanese ship (The picture with the Battle of Changde, are those Japanese or Chinese troops? The photo is blurry and I cannot tell). I dont know if this has been discussed before, if so I apoligize. And one final thing, there seems to be dead German soldier pictures popping up in alot of articles lately, someones personal campaign? - Blake
:No apologies needed.  Generally, the photographs should highlight the subject of the article (dead German soldiers being very appropriate for Stalingrad, not so much for the Battle of France etc.).  Can you point out which articles you think should be examined? Oberiko 19:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Blake, I think you're absolutely right, I always thought of this when looking at the article. I just removed a totally irrelevant picture of a few Germans lying dead in a cart, I wonder why the hell that was put on the page to begin with? It really added nothing to the article. And I agree the pictures should de distributed evenly, and also in the Western front, otherwise it would give a onesided view of the situation which is against scientific and Wiki standards. And to add something else, the picture labeled 'American troops of the 28th Infantry Division march down the Champs Elysées in Paris' seems misleading. Paris was surrendered to spare the city from combat damage, so there was no real 'victory' for the allies there as in the Germans marching down the same alley in 1940. Its more propaganda than actually depicting something significant Wiki1609 23:57, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What on Earth areyou talking about ? Paris was declared open city in 1940, to spare it destruction. In 1944, the city rioted against the German, who were under orders to destroy it, and the city liberated itself with the help of the French army (Leclerc's 2nd armoured division). Even De Gaulle was personally shot at when he visited the city a few days later. Rama 09:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  In 1944 the German commander of the Paris garrison disobeyed the orders to destroy the city and called for a retreat, again to spare the city. Thats why the city fell without almost a shot fired (there were some isolated fanatics that did follow Hitlers orders). The Germans held parades in Paris however because they defeated their major enemy in 1940. In 1944 there was no victory yet, just a 'liberation' of Paris. So thats what on earth I'm talking about. Wiki1609 19:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  without almost a shot fired ? Have you seen the photographs of the time ? There is little doubt that the Germans were in a bad posture from the start, but saying that there was no fighting in an insult to the people who died there. If you'd read Liberation of Paris, you'd known that there were practically ten days of fighting. The city of Paris was granted the Ordre de la Libération for her fight, and this is by no means a chocolate medal. Rama 12:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Don't forget one thing, it might not be as easy to find free or otherwise useable images of one side's troops then of the other. When you follow this article (and other WWII ones) closely for a few months you will notice how often images end up getting deleted because their licenses were not clear.--Caranorn 11:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're probably right, there are quite some websites that show Axis soldiers, but I dont think they have officially declared their pictures to be free-use. We should look for a website containing useable pictures and post it here when someone found one. Maybe the German government has an official historical site or something. Wiki1609 19:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures of soldiers 

message: Is it really necessary to fully protect this article for the next week?--LtWinters 21:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, why has it been protected? I don't see any discussion of it on the talk page (maybe I'm just blind). And I don't think there was much edit warring going on, except the USSR/co-belligerent thing, but that died down the other day. What's the deal? Parsecboy 01:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was user:Sr13 that did it. --LtWinters 18:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll unprotect; no one is contesting. Sr13 02:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing 

message: It's kind of amazing that such a prominent article could get away without a section detailing criticism of the war, or any controversy around it. Murderbike 08:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't the concept of war big controversy itself? But the topic is very wide. You can find articles about the controversies in this war from all around the wikipedia. Suva 11:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Murderbike, what controversy in particular are you talking about? What issues are missing? Parsecboy 11:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd think it's western betrayal. Blueshirts 20:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's hard to articulate criticisms of a war where the war aims of the combatants were so utterly different, or where several combatants felt they were fighting for their basic survival and their basic ideals (as opposed to fighting for power or resources). --Sm8900 20:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy 

message: I'm think the main picture could use some tweaking, as is:
* 4/5 deal with the European Theatre 
* The holocaust, while very closely related, isn't really part of World War II.  It's as relevant (if not less) as having a picture of the Spanish Civil War in there
The pictures I'd like to keep:
* Nazi soldier parade
* Soviet flag over the Reichstag 
* Atomic cloud
New pictures I think we should get:
* A picture of the Attack on Pearl Harbor
* If possible, a picture Allied leaders together and another of the Axis leaders together Oberiko 19:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest removal of the "Arbeit Macht Frei" picture too, as it was not really part of the actual fighting of the war. I'd replace the Nazi soldier parade with a parade of German soldiers in Paris, to show how far the Germans came by defeating their major adversary. For the Pacific I'd suggest a picture of Midway if this can be found, as this was the turning point in the Pacific war. Midway instead of the picture of the Atomic bomb. Though this was a sign of the cold war that was to come, it's actual effect on the war wasnt very big (Japan had been already been preparing for surrender when the bombs were dropped). Wiki1609 10:35, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly oppose removing the photo of the atomic bomb, because it was one of the defining moments of human history, and one of the symbols of the brutality of the world wars. 96T 13:07, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Holocaust definitely has to stay, it would not have been possible without WWII. Considering how the pictures currently are well balanced I'd say things should remain as they are even though a picture from the Asian and Pacific theatres would be nice too. Maybe add one picture from China and a second one from the Pacific (I'd agree with Midway). But that's assuming images can be found.--Caranorn 16:20, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Main picture

message: In the Battle of the Atlantic section, a second reads "... a Allied...." but should read "... an Allied...."
Thanks to any admin who wants to correct this.
151.200.44.32 19:53, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. Parsecboy 20:15, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text error (grammar/orthography) 

message: Does there really need to be a picture of a dead German soldier in this article?  I find this rather graphic and disturbing (call me sensitive perhaps) but this isn’t CSI folks.  This is real life and this is a read young man blown to bits by a grenade.  I have no sympathy for Nazi Germany (my grandfather was in the resistance movement in Holland) but I seriously wonder if this picture would be here if he was an Allied soldier.  Perhaps it is good to highlight the horrors of war but... I’m not sure it’s appropriate considering the photo is clear enough to be identifiable.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.195.86.250 (talk • contribs) 04:22, 24 June 2007
:I don't think the article would lose anything if it were removed. That sections is rather overloaded with graphics, and it doesn't really belong next to "Death camps and slave work".--Boson 08:03, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not censored and we have some photos of dead Americans from the battle of the bulge in commons, taken by US soldiers, but maybe they aren't used in any articles.  Besides this photo has an interesting story behind it, the dead German soldier has a bandage on his leg showing he had already been wounded previously before being killed, it shows the fanaticism (and perhaps bravery?) of the axis soldiers. In fact, an article about WW2 without a picture of soldiers dying in combat would be a glaring ommision,  Bleh999 10:14, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also think the picture is kind of pointless, just like the Germans in a cart picture I deleted. If we want to show there were a lot of casualties in the war, we should add a picture of a few soldiers KIA but not one zoomed in on someone. No-one wants a picture of himself dead on wikipedia and the person might still have family alive. And if it were to be representative, we should show Allied (Soviet) dead because they suffered the highest losses by far. I suggest removing the picture from this page as well as from Wehrmacht and Death. Wiki1609 14:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Almost every encyclopedia, and definitely most news sources since photography existed, publish photographs of war casualties as part of their coverage. Furthermore, this picture actually enriches the article: it allows a much more livelier graphic description of events around the war than staged pictures.  If you have any photographs of dead allied soldiers, including soviets, please feel free to upload them. Bleh999 20:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

text: see http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Soldiers_killed_in_action for some examples of our collection Bleh999 21:07, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I'll look for some pictures when I have time, it seems people have been unwilling to post pictures of dead Americans or Soviets for some reason, mainly Axis casualties. It's kind of a one-sided collection as it is now. Wiki1609 14:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture of dead German soldier