Talk:Skull and Bones

message: In their book Secret Societies: Freemasons and Illuminati, Opus Dei and Black Hand, which was published in 2013 as a companion book to a ZDF documentary series on secret societies, the authors Gisela Graichen and Alexander Hesse deal not only with the Freemasons but also with the U.S. student fraternity Skull & Bones. They address conjectures according to which Skull & Bones founder William Huntington Russell is said to have borrowed numerous ritual and symbolic elements of the fraternity he founded in 1832 from student or Masonic organizations in Germany, since he had spent several months in Germany immediately before founding Skull & Bones. The authors hypothesize here that Russell may also have been in Königsberg during his stay in Germany and may then have borrowed his Skull & Bones symbolism from the emblem of the Masonic lodge there, Zum Todtenkopf und Phoenix. 
This hypothesis is processed by the Austrian author David G. L. Weiss in his 2013 novel "Macht", a conspiracy thriller in which Skull & Bones plays a major role. In their research into Skull & Bones' possible (fictional) connections to Prussia, the novel's main character also speculates about a possible connection of Skull & Bones to the Lodge Zum Todtenkopf and Phoenix.
An even more far-reaching conspiracy theory is drafted by the author and ufologist Andreas von Rétyi in his 2004 book Power and Mystery of the Illuminati: According to this, Skull & Bones is the continuation of the Illuminati Order. The number 322 refers in the time calculation of Skull & Bones to the year 1832. In this year Skull & Bones was created, and at the same time the fusion of the lodges to the death head and to the Phoenix took place to the united Johannisloge to the death head and Phoenix. This merger, coinciding with the founding of Skull & Bones, symbolized the demise of the old Illuminati Order in Germany (Todtenkopf) and its resurrection in the USA in the form of Skull & Bones (Phoenix).
https://de.zxc.wiki/wiki/Zum_Todtenkopf_und_Phoenix#Trivia 2A02:8109:25C0:6C8:C8:F17F:6360:C6AB (talk) 15:06, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: This has also been posted at Talk:Illuminati, where Wikipedia:Reliable sources was linked, and it was explained that the English and German Wikipedias are independent of each other, so content there doesn't determine content here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:08, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  From German Wikipedia 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Consensus not to move. The discussion did not favor either the suitability of the proposed title or the position that this is no longer the primary topic. (non-admin closure)   (talk) 06:41, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Skull and Bones →  – There is no doubt this page is popular, but it's not the obvious primary topic. In the past year, pageviews demonstrate significant sustained interest for the video game also called "Skull and Bones" that is steady at about 1/5 of the views of this page, which is well within the WP:NOPRIMARY margin. Sometimes views for the game exceed the secret society. If we factor in people clicking on the link from here to the game, it becomes even closer. When the game was popular, pageviews for THIS page spiked by about 1000 views/day from all the people who were confused, so we can assume a significant fraction of visitors here are coming to the wrong place. Another telling statistic is that this page started getting about several hundred more views a day ever since the video game's article was made. Interest is likely to remain high whether or not it is cancelled. There is also a very pertinent WP:NATURAL disambiguated title, as shown.  ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:27, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities has been notified of this discussion. Frostly (talk) 03:10, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

text: No. I do not agree with this proposal. This organization has never been called the Skull and Bones Society and, therefore, the proposed change would generate an erroneous title for this article. However, the "about" note for this article does not redirect to the video game. It seems that correcting that issue would be a better place to start if, in fact, people are having a problem finding the right article. I will fix this immediately. It is also worth noting that the video game shows up right under the secret society when entering Skull and Bones in the search box, indicating that this issue may be overstated in the move proposal. Rublamb (talk) 03:31, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

text: No. No one calls it Skull and Bones Society. If it's decided that the video game should be the target of :Skull and Bones, then :Skull and Bones (secret society) would be a better name for this page, but I'm skeptical that this is needed. Yilloslime (talk) 03:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose, the well-known and influential organization weighed against a video game for primary topic? Don't think so, as well as oppose per weight of historical long-term significance. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose Theheezy (talk) 16:58, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose per WP:RECENTISM; video game may have a transient spike in hits, but current target is significantly more well-established. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:19, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose I agree with . The video game seems, to me, to be generating only a transient spike. The Yale society has much stronger justification for keeping the article name. Jax MN (talk) 22:51, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 23 June 2023 

message: I have moved the following from the Popular Culture section because of a lack of sources. This content can be returned once adequate sources are found:
*The first single for New York rock rappers ZillaKami and SosMula's album My Bloody America went under the title "Skull and Bones 322" and references the Skull and Bones secret society.
*In American Dad! episode, "Bush Comes to Dinner," when President George W. Bush goes out drinking with Hayley, a drunken Bush dances and sings, "Let's all do the Skull and Bones!"
Rublamb (talk) 04:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved from article 

message: I am proposing merger of the Russell Trust Association with this article, Skull and Bones. The former has no notability except for its relationship with Skull and Bones. Furthermore, the RTA article does not meet the standard of notability based on its current sources. Rublamb (talk) 23:44, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: If this merger is approved, you might also move content from the Deer Island (Thousand Islands) article into the larger Skull and Bones article.  That property is likewise owned by the Trust. Optionally, create a category for this and improve all three articles.  I don't have a strong opinion, either way.  Jax MN (talk) 01:26, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It does look like some content from the Deer Island article could also be moved. I am not sure much more can be added to Russel Trust. It is pretty much the standard charitable/nonprofit arm that most fraternities have. It accepts donations from alumni, holds and invests funds, and uses those funds to maintain the building and help its active members as allowed by the IRS. . Rublamb (talk) 01:38, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have too much knowledge about this area and the particular history of these topics. As long as there's no conflict with Wikipedia policy I'm okay with both changes. I'm not the most knowledgeable about wikipedia policy in this matter or these topics so if you think it's a good decision, I'll concur. Theheezy (talk) 02:56, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

text: I've added the two links mentioned above as see also in minor edit format. Please take your time in moving the other two articles into this one as I can see both of you are very experienced wikipedia editors. Theheezy (talk) 06:01, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger discussion