Talk:Indo-European languages/Archive 1

message: Quote:  "Indo-Germanic languages" or sometimes "Aryan". However when it became apparent that the connection is relevant to most of Europe's languages, the name was expanded to Indo-European.
:I contest this. "Indo-European" is not an 'expansion' of "Indo-Germanic". I believe it was simply an alternative used by the french, because they didn't like having 'germanic' in the name. The problem is (was) that 'indo-' may be both a linguistic and a geographical term. "germanic" is a linguistic, "european" a geographical term. "Indo-European" tries to describe the area where the languages are spoken, "Indo-Germanic" tries to encompass the familiy branches by naming two (again, geographical, NW-SE) extremes. I will try to dig up some details on this and amend the article. "Aryan", on the other hand, was an attempt at reconstructing what the Proto-Indo-Europeans called themselves; other names were suggested, e.g. "Japhetite" (building on the semitic/hamitic nomenclature). Note that this controversy predates the third Reich by many decades, so "Indo-Germanic" is not a german nationalistic/chauvinist term at all, and carries no such overtones in german literature -- Dbachmann 08:07, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: origin of the term 'Indo-European'

message: Could somebody describe Satem-Centum division and basic reconstructed grammar of PIE ? Taw
:See Satem, Centum
:Piotr Gasiorowski
:: [deleted statement of my intention to add this] - fair enough, I have nothing to add to that Dbachmann 10:44, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Satem/Kentum

message: I'm a little puzzled about this being an absolute, since when I took a class in Hittite a few decades ago, one of the facts that stayed with me was that the Anatolian languages split off from PIE either before or during the Satem-Centum split -- which makes this family of interest. (As well as being one of the earliest attested IE languages.) -- llywrch 19:55, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Satem-Centum, Again 

message: What pockets of non-Indo-European languages are left in Europe? Is the basque language the only one? --AxelBoldt
: The Finno-Ugric languages such as Hungarian, Finnish, and Saami (Lapp) languages are also non-Indo-European 
::There's actually nummerically a whole heap, just most of them have very few speakers.
-------
Estonian is also Finno-Ugric and related to Finnish
user:H.J.
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Turkish language is not Indoeuropean iirc. --Taw
:You're right. However, it barely counts as European either. But it should probably be included for completeness. Also Maltese. --Zundark, 2001 Dec 6
::Basque is the only "Pocket". All others are later incursions (turkish, hungarian migrations). Non IE-languages in Europe boil down to Basque, Finno-Ugric and Turkic, the latter two having homelands in the east. Dbachmann 13:33, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Welsh is a Celtic language and the Celtic languages are Indo-European. As an aside, I know that Basque is older than Finnish and Hungarian but I'm not sure how the Celtic languages compare age-wise. — Hippietrail 00:52, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-IE languages

message: I changed the reference to Nostratic from its previous form, which was along the lines of "Indo-European languages may belong to a superfamily called Nostratic". The consensus is that the Nostratic hypothesis is disproven, but then I was also loathe to removed the link to one of the articles I wrote :) So I just changed it to a "See also". I rationalize that on the basis that there's some discussion of how PIE was reconstructed there. -- Paul Drye
----
There is no consensus that the Nostratic hypothesis is wrong. Drye seems to be very fanatical about this. I suggest that anyone should simply look up Nostratic in any other encyclopedia and get a more balanced view. 
:Well, I don't debate with anonymous editors, but for the benefit of anyone else who's been wondering what I've been up to, the Nostratic hypothesis inhabits the borderlines of linguistics. Essentially it has the life that it does thanks to the troubled scientific history of the Soviet Union. Afer the Russian Revolution, and particularly after Stalin came to power, politics cut off the Russians in a number of fields -- genetics and its troubles with Lysenkoism are the most famous example. In the case of linguistics, Russian scientists went off on a wild hare about Nostratic and were too isolated to benefit from the better work happening in the west. After the fall of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, they became quite voluble about how right they were, and attracted the attention of the popular press.
:There are very few serious linguists who give Nostratic much time. As with our anonymous proponent up there, I also suggest that the interested reader take a look around. You'll notice that those who speak of Nostratic seriously in 2002 boil down to:
**Russians that no-one takes seriously
**A half-dozen western names that pop up repeatedly
**Popular press articles
**J. Greenberg
:The first three can be dismissed out of hand. Greenberg deserves better if only on the strength of his stellar work on sub-Saharan African languages in his earlier days. Unfortunately, he is generally perceived as another Isaac Newton; brilliant as a young man, off the deep end once he got older. Greenberg's "Eurasiatic"-renaming of Nostratic is seen as the equivalent of Sir Isaac's obsession with alchemy and numerology.
:I would point out that the best documentary evidence our anonymous author is providing is a link to some web discussion forums, and a pro-Nostratic e-mail Listserv. Whee. A quick boo at the professional literature in the field turns up only refutations of the concept, if they even talk about it at all. Close reading of the recent stuff about linguistic diffusion shows that they've moved beyond the possibility of a reconstructable macrofamily "above" the ones we've got. 
:Not that you need my permission, but I specifically invite any reader here who looks at what I'm claiming here and disagrees to reverse my reversions. I'm confident enough in this that I believe there won't be any takers. -- Paul Drye, who explains what he does instead of resorting to ad hominem.
::I'd like to endorse Paul Drye's scepticism. It is the more welcome because a lot of macrofamily stuff is being propagated on the Internet and published in the popular press. Most of it makes little sense, but the popular imagination delights in this kind of romantic speculation. I regard this state of affairs as unfortunate. "Nostraticism" (including Greenberg & Ruhlen's "Eurasiatic" variety) remains an insufficiently justified fringe hypothesis, by the accepted standards of historical linguistics. As for Greenberg's mass (a.k.a. lateral) comparison, it is a method that simply cannot produce reliable results, since it has no built-in controls for distinguishing genuine cognates (historically or "genetically" related words) from spurious matches resulting from purely coincidental similarity or from lexical borrowing. As opposed to comparative method, it yields no protolanguage reconstruction, nor does it reconstruct sequences of sound change transforming the protolanguage into its historically documented "offspring" -- which means, in practice, that no-one can verify its results by checking the consistency of the reconstruction. The flaws that make mass comparison scientifically useless have been discussed so many times by so many linguists that one wonders how the method can be taken seriously by anyone. Piotr Gasiorowski
=== Re: Nostratic redundancy ===
I've twice deleted an anon's addition of a paragrpah saying Indo-European is "possibly" related to (insert every other language family). This paragraph gets placed after, mind you, the paragraph which discusses the Nostratic theory. I just want a quick check to make sure I'm not being unduly repressive here. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 05:20, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you're quite right to remove that part. It seems wholly unreasonable to first mention the Nostratic hypothesis and *then* say that PIE may be related to every other language. Vice 20:49, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: such hypotheses may have a place in the nostratic article, or in an article on the world's language families. in this article, a simple link to the nostratic one should be enough. Dbachmann 11:04, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Nostratic

message: I've twice deleted an anon's addition of a paragrpah saying Indo-European is "possibly" related to (insert every other language family). This paragraph gets placed after, mind you, the paragraph which discusses the Nostratic theory. I just want a quick check to make sure I'm not being unduly repressive here. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 05:20, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you're quite right to remove that part. It seems wholly unreasonable to first mention the Nostratic hypothesis and *then* say that PIE may be related to every other language. Vice 20:49, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: such hypotheses may have a place in the nostratic article, or in an article on the world's language families. in this article, a simple link to the nostratic one should be enough. Dbachmann 11:04, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Nostratic redundancy 

message: Someone just added the claim "The Basque language is unusual in that it shares a 25% vocabulary overlap with only one other language known at this point, Georgian." Is this true? It seems highly suspect to me—by which I mean only that it contradicts the thing I keep hearing about Basque—which inclines me to delete it unless someone comes up with documentation for this odd claim. AJD 06:28, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Georgian?

message: Unless we present the 'largest' languages, by number of speakers, the listing becomes completely arbitrary. Clearly, we do not want to list 400 languages in the intro. We used to list languages with > 100 million speakers. We can lower that threshold, to e.g. 70 million, but if we go too low (<50 million), the list will become unwieldy. dab (ᛏ) 13:05, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "members include"

message: Kind of nitpicky, but... I notice several inaccuracies with :
#. English is an official language in Israel, so Israel should be colored yellow. 
#. Orange has spilled over into Thrace, even though it is part of Turkey.
#. Cyprus is totally absent. Its official language is Greek which is IE.
#. I am fairly certain French is an official language in Lebanon, though I may be mistaken.
#. Kenya has English as an official language; it should be yellow.
--Briangotts 20:23, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  IE speakers map 

message: Provided maps aren't correct. 3d map wrong indicates territory of Balts - it should be more to the West and North. 4th map wrong indicates territory of Balts as well - it should be more to the West. 5th map somehow shows the Balts and Slavs together. As we know, the Slavs emerged in territory of Lower Dniepr after the mutation of Southern Baltic tribes (mixing with Asiatic tribes). After this emerged completely different ethnos - Slavs. The same with 6th map. Zivinbudas 14:04, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong maps 

message: discussion moved to Talk:Italo-Celtic, which I will now create. dab (ᛏ) 10:48, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Italo-Celtic

message: I repeat again - exists separate Baltic languages  group and Slavic languages  group. "Balto-Slavic languages" group doesn't exist, like doesn't exist "Proto-Baltic-Slavic" . If went with your logic, should exist "Celtic-Italic-Germanic languages" group and "Proto-Celtic-Italic-Germanic". Because there were Celts, later one part of Celts were romanised (italised) and later this mixture was germanised (emerged French). The same was with Balts - there were Balts from 3,000 BC, in about 500 BC one small part of Balts (periferic Southern tribes) mixed with Asiatic tribes and from this mixture emerged Slavs.
* I see your stupidity is without borders (limits). Zivinbudas 13:13, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Saying Balto-Slavic existed is a POV. Saying it didn't exist is a POV. Saying there is a theory that it existed, and the majority of Indo-Europeanists believe this theory, but many others do not believe it, is NPOV. And calling everyone who disagrees with you "stupid" is a violation of Wikipedia policy and may get you banned. --Angr/comhrá 14:00, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: there were Balts from 3,000 BC, in about 500 BC one small part of Balts (periferic Southern tribes) mixed with Asiatic tribes and from this mixture emerged Slavs
is entirely compatible with the Balto-Slavic theory. It seems that all you object to is the terminology. You say before 500 BC there was an ethnic group called the Balts; after that date some of them broke off, mixed with other groups, and became the Slavs. The Balto-Slavic theory (which is about languages, not about ethnicities) says that at some point in the distant past there was a single language which separate into two branches; one of those branches evolved into the modern Baltic languages and the other into the modern Slavic languages. According to the Balto-Slavic theory, the best name for the language spoken before 500 BC (by your dating) is Proto-Balto-Slavic. After 500 BC the languages evolved separately: those who did not "mix with Asiatic tribes" spoke Proto-Baltic, while those who did "mix with Asiatic tribes" spoke Proto-Slavic. Thus the only difference between your theory and the Balto-Slavic theory is in the names, not in content. --Angr/comhrá 14:54, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Because there is no evidence that the Celtic, Italic, and Germanic groups ever had a common linguistic ancestor later than Proto-Indo-European. --Angr/comhrá 15:19, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: The Celts in France (rather, in Gaul) began speaking a Gaulish variety of Latin that later evolved into French. French has some Celtic loanwords, of course, but it's still a Romance language, not a Celtic one. As for the position of Baltic within Indo-European studies, it's important of course, but Celtic, Italic, Germanic, Greek, Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Anatolian, and Tocharian are equally important. --Angr/comhrá 15:57, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Where did the elements of Baltic in Slavic languages come from? From the fact that Balts and Slavs lived close to each other, or from the fact (asserted by you above) that the Slavs descended from the Balts? --Angr/comhrá 16:19, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: You've stated your position on the origin of the Slavic people: you believe they started as a group of Balts who intermixed with Asians. What is your position on the origin of the Slavic languages? --Angr/comhrá 16:34, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: There is no false statement in this article. The article states that most Indo-Europeanists believe the Balto-Slavic theory, which is a fact. You don't have to believe in the theory, but you cannot deny that it exists. --Angr/comhrá 17:17, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stupidity 

message: I'm not trying to be dogmatic, but some sort of approximate timeline, and a common nomenclature would be helpful. 
It is recognized that at no time was the proto-language in a state of monolithic unity, but rather, was a series of overlapping dialects, some of which in comparison to others likely verged on independent languages. 
I locate the Urheimat in the Sredny Stog culture, north of the Sea of Azov.
*4600-4000 PIE with Anatolian, Proto-Indo-Euro-Anatolian
:Anatolian left before the domestication of the horse; it probably entered Anatolia from the West, across the Bosphorus/Hellespont; an entry via the Caucasus is possible but less likely.
*4000-3600 PIE sans Anatolian, Proto-Indo-European
:Domestication of the horse, perhaps done by IEs; certainly, they were the first to exploit it.
*3600-3400 PIE sans Tocharian, Common Indo-European
:Germanic seems to have skedaddled not too much later than Tocharian, and the two may have actually been close to each other at the earliest dates. My opinion is that both were located at the northern fringe of the Urheimat. 
*3400-3000 Centum-Satem break, Western IE, Eastern (or Central) IE
*3000-2500 Full breakup into independent languages.
--FourthAve 06:28, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: for satemization, you're probably right. Horse domestication is a thorny issue. The major book has yet to be written. Everything I've read points to 4000 or so, tho' it seems to have started out as a meat animal, just like cattle. But the wheel also dates ca 4000, which gets into other issues.
Also, I would much like a decent map of this. The best I have done so far is this and frankly, it's rather poor (note that my "Urheimat" is the Samara culture, but I do suppose that in PIE times (4000), dialects were already spread all the way between the Sea of Azov and the Samara bend, and beyond). Unfortunately, the map we use for European cultures, here, breaks off just east of the Black Sea. We desperately need a map of comparable quality, showing the coastline and the major rivers, extending to beyond the Caspian. I have been looking around, but so far I haven't found one. My old map was done with a blank map from the Xerox mapserver, which sadly is not around anymore. dab (ᛏ) 09:55, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed Timeline

message: Yes, I saw the map at Kurgan. It reminds me I have to do Ezero culture 3300-2700 BC next -- it relates to Troy and penetration up the Danube and possibly Baden culture.  See map User Geo Swan did for me for Afanasevo culture. We certainly do need good maps. 
Have you fiddled around here glovis, US geo survey. I don't know how to save the images, but I did pull up a gorgeous satellite view of the Samara Bend. --FourthAve 11:55, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Barber has an excellent map of the first chariots. I had intended to do such a map, but I don't manage to open the map in my computer (ps format).--Wiglaf 09:19, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

text: It would do with a map centered on the Urals.--Wiglaf 09:20, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: are you warming up to the chariot article? I was going to do such a map too, sometime. But shouldn't we show the chariot's expansion in a single map? For that we would need a map reaching from Denmark to China, the carre projection is unsuitable for that, we'd need something along the lines of :Image:Uralic-Yukaghir.png. dab (ᛏ) 09:28, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, it can wait. I curse the fact that I don't remember where I have the compendias from my archaeology classes. They contained good maps of the corded ware culture, ertebölle culture, funnelbeaker culture etc.--Wiglaf 09:31, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: you need the GIMP, btw, to open the postscript maps. I say 'resolution' 200, and some fantastically big image size, which I then crop, and increase the lightness of the brown 'land'. the elevation data is quite rough, it seems, it looks good at continental scale, but zooming down to Greece, it looks quite bad (Crete is flat, some hieght lines go across lakes, etc.) dab (ᛏ) 09:38, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My Gimp says that there is some kind of error opening the file. I'll try again later.--Wiglaf 09:43, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Maps

message: I got a problem with this image: Image:IE 1500bp.png: it shows a continuous bar of Latin (blue) stretching from Istria through upper Pannonia into Transylvania (Dacia)---that seems to be erroneous. Exactly what century is this supposed to represent? It's not accurate for 500 AD or any century. Decius 11:17, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Relax. They are just maps and can easily be improved, and I am sure that Dab appreciates your feedback.--Wiglaf 11:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

text: One color for the Paleo-Balkan languages is a good idea it seems, since there were so many. Alexandru 06:08, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: the dates are of course not to be taken as exact, of course. I would say it's 500 AD/BC, give or take 200 years. The resolution is grainy on purpose, since it would be impossible to do a map of high resolution without endless disputes. At present, "various/unknown" IE languages are represented as brownish, this includes 'brownish' Macedonia in 500 BC. A agree that the Celts are too expanded in the 500 BC map, Galatia was only Celtic in the 3rd century. The "Latin" streak in 500 AD is supposed to show the linguistic influence of the Roman Empire, stretching to Romania. It is quite impressionistic, I agree, and I would be glad for your suggestions on how to improve it. Keep in mind that the map shows only 'Latin', 'Germanic', 'Slavic', and 'Other'. We should not embark on disambiguating the 'Other', about which hardly anything is known. Also in 500 AD, Armenian emerges from brownish 'Other', I want to make no claim whether it evolved out of Paleo-Balkans stuff, or whether the language is a fully independent branch, and the Armenians just hid away in some nook for all that time. dab (ᛏ) 06:50, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

text: The 500 AD distribution of Latin in the east will not be able to be represented other than hypothetically, unfortunately. The consensus is that the Romance Dalmatian language and the Proto-Romanian (whether it formed in Dacia or further south in Moesia or Macedonia or other Balkan provinces) developed separately. Dalmatian was apparently (?) in contact with early Western Romance, while Proto-Romanian was not. So Proto-Romanian (my proposal) should be a separate blue patch of Latin spread across Moesia and Dacia (this is one view-point, but enough scholars support it, and I've seen a number of works here in the U.S. assume a Proto-Romanian presence in Dacia at that time, 500 AD). Alexandru 07:21, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm still not sure how to represent Latin in other Balkan areas at that time (archaeology indicates Latinized speakers in parts of Albania and northern Macedonia, etc.). Perhaps a large part of the Balkans will just have to blue (aside from Hellenized areas, Albanians, etc.). Though no one is sure where the Albanians were in 500 AD. Albanians should be shown in some area of the Balkans where there was less Latin and Greek presence, somewhere around east Dalmatia or Northeast Albania or some wilder part of Moesia (?). Alexandru 07:26, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Just making most of the Romanic parts of the Balkans blue (including Transylvania, I vote) except for some hinterlands (north of Albania and other places) sounds like the thing to do. One minor point on the 500 BC map: the Venetic language was still spoken in and around Veneto and Istria back then, and I vote that it is given its own color patch (neither Latin or Paleo-Balkan). Alexandru 09:18, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems with the Images

message: I did introduce the spasm of maps, but let us get back to the IE timetable.
dab was talking about the timetable of centum/satem. What are the dates?
spasm of maps? It's a quantum leap man, I have been looking for these maps for ages. Now let us use them!
regarding Satemization, I have written a brief paper about that, quite some time ago, . It is quite immature, but I do largely stand by its conclusions, and more to the point, it contains a list of literature on the subject. It does not address the timeline, but the nature of the process. The important article is Solta (IF 70, 1965). We must distinguish the underlying phonetical process from its phonological consequences. The phonetical process is very longeval, we are basically looking at competing processes of palatalization vs. labialization, and these tendencies really never went away. the collapse of the velar series of course did happen at some point.
*the assibilation of the palatals and the collapse of labiovelars and velars are causally related, but must not be confused
*the collapse of velars and palatals must be seen as yet distinct from the above process
My view is that it is methodologically sound to regard early labiovelars as biphonematic. i.e. Anatolian ku is really ku and not simple kw. There are arguments for and against this, but for prehistoric times, these are futile, and we have to resort to Occam's razor. Satem loss of labiovelars is then essentially a Digammaschwund, related to the tendency of delabialization and palatalization. Conversely, Centum development of labiovelars as single phonemes is related to a phonetic predilection for labialization and depalatalization, that also betided the loss of palatals.
so far this was my understanding of the process, so that I may be able to give my opinion of the timeframe. I hinted at 3500-2500 in the article. 3500 would be the earliest nucleus of subphonematic dialectal separation. By 3000, Satemization would be in full swing in the East, spreading West across the Corded Ware Empire. By 2500, the phonetic tendency reaches the Balkans. The Proto-Greeks are affected phonetically, but not phonologically. After 2500, secondary palatalization takes its course among the Indo-Iranians. The tendency remains active after 2000, and anybody showing up in its area is mercilessly Satemized (like the Armenians). The Tocharians are at best marginally affected, which implies that they were isolated early Corded Ware times. The Albanians -- I don't know, if they were lurking in the Balkans from ca. 2000, they never need have been affected. The Anatolians were not affected at all, of course, and probably isolated from before 3500 (but I see no compelling reason why they would need have been isolated before 4000, or even 4500). Privately, I like to indulge in the idea that the Maykop people are the Proto-Anatolians. The Centum people became the Beaker people before the wave could reach them, and pulled their own stunt of losing the palatals. 
This is just one possible view, I suppose, and this writeup is not article-worthy for being OR. Making a rough argument in the direction of the relation between phonetics and phonology will be fine, citing the 1965 Solta article. dab (ᛏ) 06:34, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: btw, the Armenians are a bit of a problem, in my picture, and unfortunately, I do not have a good knowledge of the language. I would like to believe that they were Satemized between 700 BC and 400 AD. That's more than a millennium, and plenty of time for such changes. And Armenian underwent the weirdest changes. As far as I can tell, there are deep levels of influence from both Greek and Iranian, it is almost like the language had been torn apart and rebuilt from scratch, even more than English, changing random groups to erk, to the untrained ear, Armenian rather sounds like erk-this and erk-that :o) However, if Armenian was a satemized centum language, pure velars would need to be assibilated. I have found two words that contradict this idea, tekem (*tek-) "weave", and ebek (*bheg-) "broke", and possibly one or two others. This suggests that Proto-Armenian was Satemized earlier, and that Armenian cannot be close to Phrygian. It could still be a Paleo-Balkans language that was just reached by the Satem wave around 2000. dab (ᛏ) 08:06, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Armenian offers all sorts of problems. Partly, its because the majority of the literature is either in Armenian or Russian. Then there is the issue of Armenian nationalism, which prefers to see the situation as closely related dialects instead of the reality of several very ancient distinct languages, of which classical (Eastern or Church) Armenian is only one. Its sprachbund with the Caucasian languages has greatly complicated the phonology. The super-colosssal Iranian substratum/adstratum is another complication; it's as if its speakers almost gave up their language for Iranian: certainly, at some point they were likely fully bilingual (this would likely explain what you consider 'forced satamization). And how Armenian got to Armenia is a whole nother issue; obviously, it has something to do with the wreck of the Uratu Empire, and their staging area was likely present-day Tajikistan.--FourthAve 14:59, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: PS it's actually a superstratum, and the lexical situation is quite comparable to what happened to Maltese, a Semitic (actually, Arabic-derived) language that has virtually relexified itself with Romance (mainly Italian) words. --FourthAve 15:20, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Herodotus says the Armenians were a Phrygian colony around 600 BC. I would like to believe him, since 200 years lies well within his reliability radius. It's just that it's a Satem language. But with the Iranian superstratum, their Phrygian language may have self-destructed with mass hyper-Satemizations. My two Centum examples may be spurious remnants of the butchered Phrygian. That would have been quite a case study of language contact, what a pity it's lost in time. dab (ᛏ) 15:30, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a book on Armenian which claims the Phrygian origin. It even has some good lexical examples to illustrate it. I can give them here if anyone is interested.--Wiglaf 15:32, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: you can give them on Armenian language. However, that doesn't prove much, as for every Phrygian example, there will be ten words that "prove" Iranian heritage... dab (ᛏ) 15:43, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, these connections are more subtile than mere loanwords, but never mind.--Wiglaf 15:46, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Back to timetable

message: DBachmann, please do not try to present the only one and the rightest point of view in the teritory where there is no consensus. This is an encyclopaedia, not your private site. And, the view that Satem is a paraphyletic group is not generally accepted. It should be mentioned in an article like this one. I do not remove any of that what has been written till now but I give additional information only. So please, do not revert my addings.
Existing of Proto-Satem is obvious for at least some Indo-Europeists. This idea is also present on the Internet, see . And note that I do not claim that it is the right idea (even that it is my personal view).
Moreover, "According to older views, the "eastern" languages are Satem". Such a view was on top maybe 100 years ago, before Tocharian was discovered. Please do not revert this as well.
--Grzegorj 10:03, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No need for the hostility, I was just asking for a citation. The mailing list posting you cite is of course not a 'source' but the view expressed seems quite pragmatic. I would much prefer to have you lecture me about publications proposing "Proto-Balto-Slavo-Aryan" than informing me that WP is not my private homepage. dab (ᛏ) 10:47, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: plus, I suppose, Satemization of Armenian is still paraphyletic. Proto-Balto-Slavo-Aryan is already quite a fringy proposal. But I cannot know this of course, since we don't have a reference to this theory. If somebody has suggested Proto-Balto-Slavo-Armeno-Aryan somewhere citeable, we will of course include the idea here. "Existing of Proto-Satem is obvious for at least some Indo-Europeists." is precisely what I would like evidence for.  "This idea is also present on the Internet" goes without saying of course.  dab (ᛏ) 10:54, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: If the "thesis about Proto-Satem ... is simply the result of the analysis of the content" of that site you linked, there is a big problem: that site was written by a Dutch psychologist, who is not a linguist, as far as I know. He has his own ideas, such as that Wallachia is the Urheimat (possible, but just one out of countless scenarios). Tony Starks 12:22, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not the result of the analysis of one source and I am surprised that you state this way after reading of the source. But Boeree gives his sources. Haven't you noticed? "Following Cyril Babaev's Indo-European Proto-Dialects". And I. M. Diakonov, On the Original Home of the Speakers of Indo-European, Journal of Indo-European Studies (1985, vol. 13, pp 92 to 174) and J. P. Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans (1989). Isn't it enough? Of course, we can begin presenting arguments of various views but... is the matter in it? I have only stated that the thesis that the Satem group was paraphyletic (in fact, polyphyletic) is not the only option. Nothing more. Have I been right or not? Are there scientists who share the contrary point of view? Yes, they are. So, I believe that it should be mentioned in the name of scientific honesty. Anyway, Wikipedia should not suggest that there is only one, generally accepted view in this point. I do not investigate other problems: are they right (even if I believe they are), was "Wallachia" the real homeland (even if I believe it was not) These are my private convictions. This is not a place to present them. But if views on a given problem are not univocal, shouldn't it be reported? And finally, do you think that people talking on Cybalist are serious thinkers? (see the link above on proto-Satem). --Grzegorj 18:38, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: btw, Piotr Gasiorowski (of your mailing list link) used to be an editor here, User:Piotr Gasiorowski, but I don't think he's around Wikipedia anymore, but you could just email him (his polish userpage has his address) and ask what he meant, and if he has some sources to share with us . As I said, he probably didn't expect you to build a case on his use of "Proto-Satem" (his quotes) in that email. dab (ᛏ) 19:13, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Dbachmann, but I needn't search for sources cause I know enough of them. Anyway, I will try and contact Piotr Gąsiorowski and consult with him about more sources if you really need them. AFAIK, he is a professional linguist and he works in Adam Mickiewicz's University in Poznań, Poland. Maybe for you scientific workers are not scholarly enough to place their views on Wikipedia... Sorry, really. Sorry that you appear not to know the literature of the subject except some books whose authors present the problem very narrowly. See  Wave theory below. --Grzegorj 20:57, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Not so much confusingly. I understand it perfectly. Differentiation of velars and palatovelars - or preserving the differences between them which had existed before. You should know that there are two views in this point. --Grzegorj 20:57, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: It is you who would agree. But others have different views. You do not seem to know about it. --Grzegorj 20:57, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: The problem where the Satem homeland was, and the problem whether Corded-Warers were Satem people or not (or even the problem whether archeologic cultures agree with language areas or not completely) - they exceed the borders of our discussion. I remind you of the problem: do serious authors exist who claim that there existed proto-Satem language. --Grzegorj 20:57, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: As you wish, see below --Grzegorj 20:57, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: What about Armenians, Thracians and Albanians? Forgotten? --Grzegorj 20:57, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry Dbachmann, didn't you agreed with me at the point of proto-Satem before? See Talk:Indo-European_languages#Proposed_Timeline: "3400-3000 Centum-Satem break, Western IE, Eastern (or Central) IE" (FourthAve) and "That certainly makes sense, is EIEC-compatible, and it should be easy to reference the details from Kurgan supporters" (Dbachmann). But existing of Proto-Satem is the obvious effect of FourthAve's timeline. Why do you find fault with me and not with him? However, this is unimportant. But you can see, again, that the proto-Satem hypothesis has many followers and itr should be placed here instead of presenting "the only and the right" view of some its antagonists. And what are your sources? And what are names of those who do not agree with Proto-Satem? What are their arguments? I want to know it the same as you want to know who are the followers. So, please tell me. --Grzegorj 20:21, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: what? either you are not getting me, or I am not getting you. Every single "Introduction to IE linguistics" book I know treats the Centum/Satem isogloss as an areal effect. Ideas of "Proto-Satem" belong in the mid-19th century. So, yes, I can find you some 19th century authors who support it,  but that would really be your job. "Proto-Satem" means at least Proto-Balto-Slavo-Aryan. Armenian may still be Satemized secondarily, that doesn't  matter. Let's not even begin to talk about Thracian. Albanian is not generally accepted as "Satem" (didn't you read my comment?). So if you find me one 20th century author who unambiguously proposes a Proto-Balto-Slavo-Aryan unity after the breakoff of the later Centum dialects, I will gladly accept to include the reference. You have said "others have different views" a few times too often now. Name one name. I hope you'll at least agree that it is a minority view. If you do not, I can easily dig up a few citations of the mainstream view, but I thought that was undisputed. dab (ᛏ) 05:43, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proto-Satem 

message: Ok, first of all you seem to use the 'Satem' term slightly confusingly. See my note above. "Satem" doesn't just mean assibilation, it means collapse of labiovelars and velars, but differentiation of velars and palatovelars.
:Not so much confusingly. I understand it perfectly. Differentiation of velars and palatovelars - or preserving the differences between them which had existed before. You should know that there are two views in this point. --Grzegorj 20:57, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is you who would agree. But others have different views. You do not seem to know about it. --Grzegorj 20:57, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: The problem where the Satem homeland was, and the problem whether Corded-Warers were Satem people or not (or even the problem whether archeologic cultures agree with language areas or not completely) - they exceed the borders of our discussion. I remind you of the problem: do serious authors exist who claim that there existed proto-Satem language. --Grzegorj 20:57, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: As you wish, see below --Grzegorj 20:57, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: What about Armenians, Thracians and Albanians? Forgotten? --Grzegorj 20:57, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry Dbachmann, didn't you agreed with me at the point of proto-Satem before? See Talk:Indo-European_languages#Proposed_Timeline: "3400-3000 Centum-Satem break, Western IE, Eastern (or Central) IE" (FourthAve) and "That certainly makes sense, is EIEC-compatible, and it should be easy to reference the details from Kurgan supporters" (Dbachmann). But existing of Proto-Satem is the obvious effect of FourthAve's timeline. Why do you find fault with me and not with him? However, this is unimportant. But you can see, again, that the proto-Satem hypothesis has many followers and itr should be placed here instead of presenting "the only and the right" view of some its antagonists. And what are your sources? And what are names of those who do not agree with Proto-Satem? What are their arguments? I want to know it the same as you want to know who are the followers. So, please tell me. --Grzegorj 20:21, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: what? either you are not getting me, or I am not getting you. Every single "Introduction to IE linguistics" book I know treats the Centum/Satem isogloss as an areal effect. Ideas of "Proto-Satem" belong in the mid-19th century. So, yes, I can find you some 19th century authors who support it,  but that would really be your job. "Proto-Satem" means at least Proto-Balto-Slavo-Aryan. Armenian may still be Satemized secondarily, that doesn't  matter. Let's not even begin to talk about Thracian. Albanian is not generally accepted as "Satem" (didn't you read my comment?). So if you find me one 20th century author who unambiguously proposes a Proto-Balto-Slavo-Aryan unity after the breakoff of the later Centum dialects, I will gladly accept to include the reference. You have said "others have different views" a few times too often now. Name one name. I hope you'll at least agree that it is a minority view. If you do not, I can easily dig up a few citations of the mainstream view, but I thought that was undisputed. dab (ᛏ) 05:43, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: .

message: I really like the way this article has shaped up. There is nothing here I disagree with.  An enormous amount of linked information is presented, without making the article too long. 
As for satemization, isn't it easier to term it as a sprachbund thing? 
We also probably need to think of revising the IE template. I did add the Globular Amphora culture to it, but stopped when I realized how incredibly long it would become (there are IE archaeological culturess I have not gotten to yet).
Tangential to this, I recently did the Rudna Glava article as a complement to the Kura-Araxes culture and Maykop culture articles. This is the 5th millennium Balkan copper mining/smelting culture. I know little of metallurgy, particularly ancient metallurgy, and my exploration of the topic indicates a general wiki-wide weakness in the subject; bronze and bronze age could both use some work. I've also left quite a bit of stuff in Wheel talk, looking towards either an enhanced, or more likely, a separate wheeled vehicle article -- definitely on-topic for IE studies. Comments on all of this would be appreciated. --FourthAve 17:13, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: yes, 'sprachbund' may be a helpful term here. I do not insist on the "paraphyletic" at all. Note though that I am not sure that "sprachbund" is synonymous with "linguistic area" as the article claims. We main need an areal linguistics article or something. dab (ᛏ) 18:04, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Paraphyletic means containing all descendants of a common ancestor but few. And polyphyletic means not having one common ancestor. Terming Satem languages paraphyletic suggests that there existed one proto-Satem language (which was fully Satem already) and that not all its descendants are Satem. But if you termed Satem languages polyphyletic instead, it would suggest that their last common ancestor was not Satem yet, and the process of Satemization took place in several branches independently. I believe it to be a nonsense but the choice is yours. Anyway, the term paraphyletic is confusing. Please change it to make the article consistant with generally accepted terminology. --Grzegorj 20:28, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: In 1928 Trubetzkoy proposed the term "Sprachbund" (I prefer the translated version: language league). However, the term gained acceptation only after 1936, i.e. after publication of R. Jacobson's "Sur la théorie des affinités phonologiques entre les languages".
J. Schmidt died in 1901 so no way he can have thought about language leagues. He voted for, not against, the natural (genetic) Satem group. Namely, he criticized Schleicher's "Stammbaumtheorie" in some points. This is what he claimed:
# Related languages have developed from a common trunk but they did not become isolated at once, just after the split. Contrarily, they influence each other as long as they touch each other geographically (as long as they are neighbours) and until strong language boundaries come into being.
# Splitting of the Indo-European protolanguage did not happen immediately but it was preceded with a period of dialectal differentiation. The fact was illustrated by J. Schmidt with the Centum-Satem isoglose (so, he did vote for the natural character of these groups!) and with the -m-/-bh- isoglose (I mean the phoneme which is present in some casual endings).
# The IE protolanguage, as well as separate PIE words, cannot be treated as real beings but rather as hypothyetical, relative reconstructions which demonstrate the contemporary knowledge.
# Language changes spread concentrically like waves in water when we drop stones in it. Of course, such a spreading is possible as long as neighbour dialects are still enough similar.
So, no voting against the natural character of the Satem group. And about the above text, would it be a good stub for wave-theory (not written yet)?
Ooops, sources... :-) A. Heinz: Dzieje językoznawstwa w zarysie. PWN. Warszawa 1983. pp. 172 (Schmidt) and 294 (language league). --Grzegorj 11:05, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was Schmidt the guy who did away with Proto-Satem? 

message: Some of the terms to be defined are
*superstratum
*adstratum
*substratum
*sprachbund
*bilingualism
*language replacement
The Satem languages were essentially a sprachbund, which is a "speech federation", where two or more languages develop a common phonology, as with the case with English, French, German and Dutch (contrast with the phonemes you get in the Slavic sprachbund). It is a phenomenon of bilingualism, when you have enough bilingual people to start mutually influencing each others phonology, particularly in elite dominance situations.
An adstratum is a language living cheek-to-cheek with another, where one or both exchange lexical items, and sometimes, phonology. Puerto Rican Spanish in New York City has an enormous English adstratum, and produces a distinct 'New York accent' when these speakers speak in Spanish (in comparison to the 'pure' Puerto Rican accent you get on the island). This is a kind of sprachbund. Full bilingualism is not necessarily obligatory, but the elite speakers will be bilingual, and their example will be followed. I imagine Polish speakers born and raised in the Greenpoint district (New York City's Petit Polonia) have a New York accent too.
A superstratum is an imposed lexical (and sometimes, grammatical) element, as with the case of English and Norman French after 1066, or what happened to French after the Franks (Charlemagne et al.) got finished working over their early Romance language. 
A substratum is largely found in the context of language replacement. A substrate is quite evident in most non-native speakers of a language, whatever that language may be; it brings an accent into play, and depending on the speech community, lots and lots of words from the native language are brought along into the new language. Referring to New York City English once again, a number of non-English terms were introduced this way into English, and then passed into the native-speakers inventory: Yiddish words such as schlep or chutzpah; Italian words such as pizza and capeesh; more anciently, even Dutch words such as 'stoop' for 'outside stairs'. Substrata are an underappreciated source of borrowings. 
--FourthAve 23:35, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I hope that these explanation are not for me... you know... :-) I do not need them, really. But who said that the Satem languages were only a sprachbund? Is it your private theory? And what is the evidence that they are not related? (I.e. more related than their relations to other IE languages) --Grzegorj 01:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Areal linguistics

message: Would it be useful to mention (or at least give links to not written yet articles on) another division of IE languages, namely the Taihun-Decem division? The idea comes from the authors of the Glottalic theory, Gamkrelidze and Ivanov. They claim that Germanic and Armenian has the consonantal system preserved best when compared to the protolanguage state. See  my comment in another place for details.
Anyway, I do not like the Decem / Taihun idea. I do not like the Renfrew's hypothesis either. The Renfrew idea should be mentioned here for preserving the neutral point of view and it _is_ mentioned. So, perhaps the Gamkrelidze-Ivanov's theory should be mentioned as well? Even if in the form of links to other articles? What is you opinion?
--Grzegorj 13:38, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Decem and Taihun 

message: Baltic languages and Slavic languages are completely separate languages' groups. Slavs emerged in second half of 1st millenium BC in area of Lower Dniepr in long process of mixing of southern Baltic tribes with migrated Asiatic tribes. It is the same like modern French emerged from Celts in process of mixing (see discussion above). But something like "Celtic-French" doesn't exist. Nonexisting "Balto-Slavic" emerged in XIX - 1st half of XXth centuries as product of Russian and Polish propaganda. Benjamin07 15:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, Dab... I did not write I hate Balto-Slavic, I wrote (to our ill-mannered friend): "even if I hate it with all my heart like you hate Balto-Slavic" :-) I have not preached to him, I have just tried to be kind, and here is my wage for that... not important of course. Of course I give my whole-hearted support to the idea of Balto-Slavic. You are right, it is the mainstream opinion and I can see many pieces of evidence for it (and - to be sincere - together with odd lack of common Balto-Slavic vocabulary in some semantic areas). Grzegorj 23:00, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I see :) you would have had to pick the conditional mood, saying "Even if I hated", otherwise you will say that you actually do hate. dab (ᛏ) 10:20, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if cannot express an actual activity at all. The 2nd conditional clause (if -ed --> would) expresses an irreal (but still possible) condition while the 1st one (if -s --> will) expresses a real (or: open) condition. Condition, not an actual act. BTW, if I hated is not in the conditional mood but in the subjunctive mood of the past tense rather (cf. I would hate which is in the conditional mood, or in the future tense in the past, like they also term it). Sorry, you usually estimate the level of my knowledge (or my choise of terminology), and now I should probably say a word on you, too. But... aren't you affraid that an admin (hehe) will ban us in a while because this topic has nothing to do with both IE languages or "Balto-Slavic"?. You are welcome to write me a nice piece of e-mail rather, if you want to continue, OK :-)? --Grzegorj 18:23, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

text: it's not just his ignorance. His ill manners would make him unbearable even if he did have a clue dab (ᛏ) 10:20, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I respectfully disagree.  Even if he were reasonably polite, his complete ignorance of the subject matter would be enough to disqualify him from real participation in the subject.  I would suggest, though that it is hard to imagine someone with good manners vehemently intervening in a subject matter which they simply have no understanding of. john k 17:01, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: you are probably right, and I basically say so myself in my "CITE is more important than NPA" maxim. With Z, we are in the comfortable situation that he is banned now, and every time he passes by to call us names resets his ban to a full year -- so that after initially wasting some of people's time, he is now no problem at all, but rather some kind of bizarre spectacle :) dab (ᛏ) 18:01, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Balto-Slavic" never existed 

message: Who claimed that Albanian may not be Satem? The Satem shift applies inconsistently in Balto-Slavic, in Armenian, and even in Indo-Iranian, so which is the reason for doubts on Albanian? And, which is the most important, where "the Albanian hesitation" is expressed, and how many writers share this hesitancy? AFAIK the opinion that Albanian is Satem is prevailing, and to be true I should say that I cannot remember a book whose author would claim that Albanian is either Centum or undefined. So, if there even exists such a view somewhere, it seems to me to be so marginal that not worth to be mentioned. --Grzegorj 10:35, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Albanian 

message: Does South Africa really have a majority of I-E speakers?  The World Factbook gives only about 22% for English+Afrikaans.  Ethnologues gives about 9 million out of 42 million.  It seems fairly clear that South Africa has a Bantu-speaking majority. On the other hand, it seems wrong to count a country like South Africa, with a very significant minority which speaks Indo-European languages as a first language, as the same as a country like, say, Nigeria, where English is strictly a second language. john k 05:29, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  South Africa in map 

message: First, a word on the terms "monophyletic", "paraphyletic" and "polyphyletic". As far as I know, there is only one, generally accepted use of these terms. Namely when we have a group of objects which have a common feature, we term this group:
# monophyletic - when all the objects have one common ancestor and there are not other descendants of this ancestor,
# paraphyletic - when all the objects have one common ancestor and there are other descendants of this ancestor,
# polyphyletic - when the objects have not one common ancestor with the common feature.
So, my first remark is that the statement "the Centum-Satem dichotomy is considered paraphyletic" (in the article) is out of sense. Which is more, the dichotomy cannot be polyphyletic as well. A group can be mono-, para- or polyphyletic - but a dichotomy cannot. If your view is different, please give the source and make the statement consistant with Paraphyly and Polyphyly.
And the second remark: once again about the Satem and Centum groups.
1. I have already written about L. Bednarczuk's view. I repeat that he claims that Satem languages had formed a community while Centum languages had never formed a community. The same word "community" is used for "Proto-Indo-European", so we can speak that once there existed the Proto-Satem language. As a consequence, the Satem group is monophyletic according to him.
2. Leszek Moszyński (Wstęp do filologii słowiańskiej. PWN. Warszawa 1984) writes (p. 180): "Panuje przekonanie, że języki kentumowe wcześniej niż satemowe opuściły praojczyznę indoeuropejską i że dopiero po ich odejściu nastąpiło uprzednienie palatalnych *k', *g'. Dlatego też języki kentumowe nazywane bywają również peryferyjnymi, satemowe - centralnymi". Translation: "The conviction prevails that Centum languages left the Indo-European homeland before Satem languages, and that only after their leaving the fronting of the palatals *k', *g' took place. Hence Centum languages happen to be termed peripheral while Satem ones - central". Anyway, L. Moszyński presents the view that Satemization occured once, not within a language league but within a group of related dialects. The dialects had not become similar secondarily but they had preserved their original similarities rather. So, the L. Moszyński's view is the Satem languages form a monophyletic group.
3. Piotr Gąsiorowski answered my letter and wrote: "Co do pytania głównego, czyli monofiletycznego charakteru grupy
satemowej, to -- na razie krótko mówiąc -- istotnie uważam tę hipotezę za bardzo prawdopodobną" which means "As regards to the main question, in other words the monophyletic nature of the Satem group, shortly speaking for now, I consider this hypothesis very probable, indeed."
4. The view that both Satem and Centum languages form monophyletic groups is fully consistant with the map of Sintashta/Abashevo/Srubna cultures (which is added to the chapter "Satem and Centum languages").
The result: L. Bednarczuk is not the only linguist who consider the Satem group monophyletic and the Centum group paraphyletic. I do not claim that this is the only view but no one can say that this view is weird, unpopular, or little spread. And, as the result, the term "Proto-Satem" is not misleading in any way. It would not be better at all to say that Satemization was an areal influence - because many scholars consider it was not only such an influence. In addition, Satemization did not span the Proto-Balto-Slavic and Proto-Indo-Iranian communities. Firstly, as the cited sources show, many scholars consider Satemization to happen before the division into Proto-Balto-Slavic and Proto-Indo-Iranian. Secondly, I do not know virtually any authors who claim that Satemization spanned only PBS and PII. It is generally accepted that Albanian, Armenian and Thracian groups are also Satem. Even if there are people who claim Albanian not to be Satem, they are in minority. So, I am about to insert some more correction to the article in order to make it more consistant with the literature.
If anyone thinks that I am wrong doing this, give your sources, not convictions please.
--Grzegorj 17:51, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paraphyletic Satem once again 

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