Talk:Barbaro family/Archive 1

message: There are no such books, according to Google.  I would like to see some ISBNs for a lot of the other references.  The "Golden Books of Venetian Nobility" is also being used to source another, hoaxish article with no reliable sources, and therefore I have my doubts about this, as well.  This article needs to be reverted a long ways back to its earliest beginnings and verifiable sources re-added.  Corvus cornix 22:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Ecuse me butting in here, there most certainly was a Libro d'Oro recording the nobility of most of the Italian city states, including Venice. Giano 10:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Interestingly enough, Vitus Sebastian Barbaro and Vitus Barbaro have both been deleted for failure to provide references.  Corvus cornix 22:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and I've just been WP:BOLD and reverted the article to a point before User:Tiki-two and his 65.54.xxx.xxx alter-egos started messing with it. If I've removed anyone's good edits, I apologize profusely, but I think this article needs to be reconsidered in its entirety before it can move forward. Verifiable sources are needed for any further additions or emendations. Deor 00:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Prove it.  BTW, I didn't delete anything in this page.  Corvus cornix 02:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, now I have, since I reverted the hoaxer's revandalism of this page.  Corvus cornix 02:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I would not be surprised if a great many of the IP addresses that have been editing this article are controlled by Tiki-two. But in the absence of any evidence to show this, I will WP:AGF and assume otherwise. Terraxos 03:31, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Golden Books of Venetian Nobility"

message: Semi-protected to prevent further revert warring.  Tiki-two (and related anons), the ball's in your court to produce reliable sources, but given the state of things at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Pugalist Club the additional information looks like a blatant hoax. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 03:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected 

message: Please note several edits ending - 00:50, 5 July 2007 - by IP# 65.54.154.153.  I attempted to put this article into a more acceptable Wiki format, but was promptly reverted by (from the info above) the original editor.  Be aware that Wikipedia working standards for any article require that all material should be original unless shown as a direct quote and should not be under copyright.  The format of the article is not dependent on any source or any sequence borrowed from a source, but should comply with Wikipedia standards.  As content is under dispute and the article protected, I will not revert.  But I will assert that the current article content and format due not meet minimum Wikipedia style and standards.  Once content issues are resolved, I would urge a major cleanup.  65.54.155.36 05:31, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I hereby acknowledge my edits of 5 July 2007 (by IP# 65.54.154.153) as well as the edit above by User:65.54.155.36.  When working from a computer I do not own, I am sometimes not able to sign in and so may show up with an MSN IP#.  I will be pleased to help on the copy editing of this page once things have settled down.  GwenW 20:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia formatting and style

message: Dear Wikipedia, 
Fenwick High School, where Mr. Barbaro attended, has been notified about the hoax that has unfortunately destroyed valuable information about the Barbaro family that would have been useful to all searching Wikipedia. Please contact Fenwick Alumni director Debbie Thompson via email to verify previous knowledge that existed before the hoaxer arrived (dthompson@fenwickfriars.com). Thank you
:—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.97.195  (talk • contribs)  Corvus cornix 17:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One wonders why an alumni director would know the history of an obscure family from Italy.  Corvus cornix 17:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm getting really tired of dealing with this, but I'd like to ask you, How do you account for the fact that the Wikipedia user who is responsible for "the hoax that has unfortunately destroyed valuable information about the Barbaro family" is exactly the same user who supplied all that "valuable information about the Barbaro family" in the first place? And since you seem to be close to Mr. Vitus Barbaro, perhaps you could supply some verifiable sources to establish his existence, and if he indeed exists, to establish his being notable in any way at all. Deor 18:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please Contact Fenwick High School to Verify that Previous Information for Barbaro family was Accurate

message: I don't want to be the mediator here, and I don't know a huge amount about the Barbaro family, but I do know that the first paragraph of this version of the page is true  and completely uncontraversial. So can be re-instated quite safely. Giano 10:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It does say that "Sebastiano was an artist, art restorer, and international art dealer in Italy, France, and the United States. He specialized in dealing with mid-century modernists such as Enrico Donati, Lucien Ruolle, and artists of the Peggy Guggenheim circle.". So I presume that the wording indicates that Sebastiano is no longer alive? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 16:21, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * I think you are confused as to Italian noble customs and designations. Giano 17:45, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *It is not about equal rank with a King, it is a bestowed title, a Grand Prince no matter how grand is a vasaal a King is not. Giano 17:47, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *A cadet branch is a minor branch of a major family. It is nothing at all to do with highness. Please stop adding rubbish to Wikipedia. Giano 08:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Jeferson referred to 4 books as his bible, and had known of them for years before he had even heard of the Barbaro. Giano 17:48, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Copies of that book were far from where. There was also Campbell's Vitruvius Brittanicus which inspired architects in Aneica reproducing many plans inspired by Palladio and othersGiano 08:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: No it is not, it says he was invested, there ws ni investiture for the simple reason there was no monarch to invest him with these titles. Giano 17:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *I merely question the Genoese Grimaldi family marrying into the Venetian nobility, I do not say it did not happen, I merely ask for a reference. Giano 17:50, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Again, I merely wasnt a reference for this, I have myself written a few Wikipedia pages on the Grimaldi this one for instance. So I am aware of that family's origins. I did not say there was a branch frm Genoa - I asked if there was such a branch as this would make the connection more likely  Giano 09:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *The removal of Diana, Princess of Wales' HRH was probably ilegal as there is no provision in British law for a non-royal princess, however. It is not used universlly, the 1st Duke of Marlborough was a Holy Roman Prince his family do not use the title. Neither do most other descendents of such people. Giano 17:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *There is still much debate in English legal circles as the legality of that act (Elizabeth II is subject to the law too) as there is also question as to the legality of denying HRH to the Duchess of WIndsor.  Giano 09:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *"Vitus has always been considered America's prince. He is the only known royal born and raised in America" -  Complete rubbish he is not Royal and he is not a prince, and Prince Vitus had better get used to it - how are you suggesting he is known Principe di X, where is the X? - that should be easily checkable. Giano 17:56, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *.........and as for the external link leading to this  to belive that one would have to be as daft as those who pay a fortune for a copy of that coat of arms - it is rubbish with a capital R. Those are not princely arms in Italy or anywhere else for that matter. Incidentally that site says the family are of Sicilian origin - Oh just beam me up!  Giano 18:15, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *PS any Barbaro out there considering buying that "crest" should be aware that a "crest" is just the emblem on top of a coat of arms not the whole thing as that site suggests. Giano 18:24, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Actually Palladio's 4 volumes were called "I Quattro Libri dell'Architettura" in Italian. Giano 09:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *We are questioning these things because you claimed them without references in an article. Giano 09:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Palazzo's? I think you will find the Italian plural is Palazzi - yest there were two different palazzi - I wrote a page here two years ago concerning one of them. Giano 09:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Perhaps you should just write a page on Prince Vitus' mother instead? <that is a joke> Giano 09:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Regarding the claim that the Villa Barbaro was Thorneton's inspiration for The Capitol building in Washington - these edits fully referenced  and  seems to answer that. At the moment I think all but the first paragraph of the article needs to be deleted Giano 21:48, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *When you have quite finished your insults and ranting, I suggest you check out who wrote Wikipedia's article on Palladianism which covers the spread and influenves of Palladio's influences and ideals. Incidentally the link I gave above references to an established a well known independently published reference book - not Wikipedia a s you suggest. Giano 08:48, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Villa Barbaro is an important work by Palladio. Palladio was influenced by the classical temple architecture of the Romans. Palladio designed many buildings all of which were important. Palladio's work inspire the Palladian movement of the late 17th  and 18th centuries. Palladianism developed slowly into neoclassicism by incorporating Greek classical influences. The Capitol is neo-classical in design. So has influences of Palladio but to select one villa as inspiring it would be very wrong. Parts of the Villa Barbaro were inspired by Rome's Pantheon, so one could argue that the Pantheon inspired the capitol, that is very plausible, but at Barbaro the pantheon was the inspiration for the chapel out in one of the wings. To say Barbaro was THE influence for the Capitol is plain wrong. Giano
Now lets see what else Columbia University thinks about the Barbaro family. Remember that portion about how a Barbaro family member translated important philosophical works that are now in the special collections of Columbia University. Is that really true? Do an online search for "Ermolao Barbaro Columbia University" and go to the 4th one: Treasures:Columbia Rare Book & Manuscript Libraby. Umm, it's listed as "treasure" that sound pretty valuable and important to me. I wonder what it is? Look at that, it is the actual translation of Aristole from ancient Greek into a modern language by Francesco Barbaro and Ermolao Barbaro. It was also given as a gift by the famous George Plimpton. You are telling me that if these two Barbaros didn't actually take time to learn a dead obscure greek language and used their knowledge to translate what Aristole wrote, the world today would not even know what Aristole written- you mean they saved Aristole for the whole world today- you mean they actually impacted the world that much? YES! When is the Barbaro page going to be restored back to the way it should!
Now lets look into the most remarkable part of the former article.It said the Barbaro branch of the Albergo line went to China and got a silk moth specific to Asia and then they created this rare type of silk moth that had dwarfed wings that was so astonishing, it even made them become Chinese princes. That can't be true, there isn't any rare moth that they specifically made, Right? Even Vitus Barbaro uses a symbol of this called the "Farfalla di Barbaro", Come on. This moth sounds like it is made up? If it exists, show me a picture of it. Fine, go to WWW.Wormspit.com. Now, once there, go into Bombyx mori. Do you rember Bombyx mori, it used to be in the article-but now it's gone. Wow, it even says it is the "China silkmoth" Now, see those picture poping up go down to number 38, pass number 39 which is a grouping of 7, and then go to 54. Oh my god! There it is! Exactly as descibed with its dwarf wings and inability to fly!
WE can go on forever with this. The former Barbaro page was perfect, we now have a page with a completely bogus arms link, and we have all of this proven knowledge gone. 
With all do respect, and with your appreciation for safety, I think it is time to bring back the page the way it should be. We all understand what has occured, and the Barbaro page was perfectly fine. There is no justification for this block. All of the information on that page was true and verifiable from sources listed. Please return the page back for others to have access to valuable knowledge about the Barbaro family. It is information about our world history. It is information about all of our history. Thank you.
**The previous article with all information and sources was also a value research guide with excellent topical direction for the family, renaissance information, and excellent structure, meaning and context. It was genuinely better before. Thank youF550 04:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's put in what is known to be true. 

message: I've been following this discussion for a while now, and it looks like the real problem here is verifiability.  So, if you'd kindly just list the sources you have that support his article, sans commentary, or indirection, in a short list, I think we could all move forward a lot more effectively.  --Haemo 06:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This wasn't what I asked.  What are the "best references possible?"  List them below, if you would.  --Haemo 06:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Er, I meant 15, sorry.  But, anyways, now that we've gotten this straightened out, we can start putting this article back together again.  Let's focus on the lead -- since you seem to be the resident expert on this topic, could you propose a revised lead, citing references claims when necessary.  Other editors can then give their input, and verify the validity of the statements therein.  --Haemo 07:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: But, this is one of the sources we can't verify.  Surely, if the family is notable, you will be able to source this material to some other book?  --Haemo 07:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Source #16 has no ISBN, and does not come up on any Google Searches.  References must be verifiable -- it's impossible to find, or even tell, the nature of such a work.  In fact, one would be hard pressed to convince a skeptical editor that it even exists.  --Haemo 08:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: This is an issue for WP:FTN. Having started Descent from antiquity, I may assure you that any claim of proved Roman descent is a hoax. See Christian Settipani's "Continuité gentilice et continuité familiale dans les familles sénatoriales romaines a l’époque impériale: mythe et réalité" for some intriguing speculations on the issue. Nathaniel Taylor's review is available here. The Barbaro genealogy was formerly available on sardimpex.com, but the content was deleted for copyright reasons. --Ghirla-трёп- 13:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * Yes, there was a lot wrong with the previous page, which lacked verifiable sources and was full of uncited material.  This page must comply with Wikipedia policies and guidelines.  Also, your behavior must comply with those policies, including remaining civil and polite towards others and no personal attacks. --Aude (talk) 14:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *"Could be completely cited" is not good enough.  Until it is cited with verifiable reliable sources, the material does not belong in the article.  --Aude (talk) 14:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evolved from the Julii??? 

message: There seems to be a general consensus based on comments here and at my own talk page that the initial paragraph is decent but the remainder is suspect, so I have pared the article down and (for now) removed protection.  Since this topic has been the target of hoaxes (which even the anon IP has acknowledged), I will be actively monitoring it for unsourced (or not strongly-sourced) information and urge other users to do the same.  If anyone re-adds unsourced or questionably-sourced information to the point of disruption, the article will be re-protected.  In particular, editors should watch for mentions of "Vitus Barbaro", on whom no reliable sources--or indeed any sources at all--have emerged.  Sourcing on biographies of living persons is taken extremely seriously on Wikipedia, and claiming to have gotten a letter from some guy or called up a high school teacher is not a reliable source, and even if it's true (a doubtful scenario, let's face it), would constitute original research, which is also forbidden on Wikipedia.  So, with all that in mind, let's get to fixing this article! Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: F550, you cannot delete this talk page: It exists as a record of discussion about the article, and if you remove the comments of other users, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. With regard to expanding the article, I'd recommend that you read very carefully the comments of Andrew Lenahan at the beginning of this section. My suggestion would be to add one section at a time, providing a clear citation for each statement in the section, and wait to see if any of the information is challenged before proceeding further. (And note that, for the purposes of Wikipedia, unpublished sources like "some obscure goldenbook of a small village" are not acceptable; see WP:URS.) There's no need for rush in expanding the article, and given the article's dubious edit history, I'm sure everyone wants to ensure that any material added to it is indeed derived from reliable and verifiable sources. Deor 17:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotected and pared down 

message: *The statement below is part of the the hoax to cause turmoil and misinformation. These hoaxsters are trying to purposely fuel turmoil by posting lies, such as goldenbooks not being obtainable. It is all part of their Trouble making game.F550 19:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:RPA]]

message: A geneologist expert has been brought in to verify the previous article. Several of the points have already been proven with verifiable facts and evidence. Yet, when those point are made evidently clear both starbling and Hyper-individualist@Yahoo.com continue to ignore it and chose not to respond. The true hoax on this Barbaro family page is that these two individuals are trying to ignore verifiable evidence and have set out to destroy good knowledge for everyone- verifiable knowledge. Starblind has decided to put what ever he wants on the page but can not provide a single source of evidence to validate his selection. These two hoaxers have only one desire, but to detroy good validated information for the public and to extend turmoil. These two hoaxers continually make attempts to stop progress and provide no real solutions for Wikipedia problems . I suggest that Starblind be removed from Wikipedia editing. He is a trouble maker of the highest category and ignores reason.F550 18:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your repeated attempts to rely upon a supposed book which no one can find exists anywhere won't fly.  Nobody denies that a Golden Book exists, but no one believes that there is a Golden Book of Venice nor a Golden Book of the Barbaro family.  Unless you provide proof of the existence of these books, they cannot be used for references.  Read WP:RS.  The references must be available to others for review.  Corvus cornix 20:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The simple fact is that no one can verify that the key source this page tries to cite even exists.  Wikipedia requires verifiability, and this source does not meet this standard.  --Haemo 21:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look I don't want to boast here, but I wrote the Palladian page, I have written pages on the Grimaldi and I also wrote most of Libro d'Oro and started Almanac de Gotha.  I am not convinced by anyhting you are claiming about the Barbaro. I do not say you are wrong just I would like to see some better references cited to books and page numbers - do that and you are home and dry. Simple. Giano 21:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We are all having a marvellous day thanks, can you give us a link to the version of the page  you think was beautifully written with all sources listed. Thanks. Giano 22:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: No just give us a link to it please. I have spent time doing my own Barbaro research today - I want to see if the facts in what you calim to be the authentic page match.  Could you explain please also why the Curtis family came to be living at the Palazzo Barbaro - be warned I know the answer - I just wonder if you do? Giano 22:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I have reverted your edit to the page because "The Barbaro family is a Venetian noble family who evolved from the Julii of ancient Rome" is incorrect, the claim is only made by unwriiten family legend - no documented proof exists. I advise you to go no further with this rubbish. Giano 22:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Could you please explain why, someone who works for Vitus Barbaro and is a professional genealogist (who can't spell the term) and historian, posts from a Microsoft Corporation IP address?  Corvus cornix 23:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:RPA]] 

message: With 4 re-insertions of the same content again within an hour or so, it's clear I shouldn't have unprotected this earlier today.  Semi-protected again. *sigh* Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semiprotected again... just lovely. 

message: The Italianate drama which is this page is totally getting out of hand.  So far, we have the following people arguing on the "pro-Barbaro" side:
*
*
*
*
*
*
All of these IP addresses come from the same location, One Microsoft Way, in Redmond, Washington.
If you check the related article, The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent, you will see that similar IP addresses:
*
*
*
*
*
*
All of which resolve to the same address, and in The Pugilist Club, another related article, address:
*
Also resolves to the same address.  Previously, it has been clear that  was the same editor as the second block of IP addresses.  It is therefore reasonable to believe that Tiki-two is all of these IP addresses, and I will be filing a checkuser request to confirm this.  I would also stand to believe that  will resolve to the same address as well, and constitutes as second account of this user.
Andrew Lenahan, if you have a checkuser privileges, you could short-cut this process and save us all a lot of time and head-ache.  Haemo 23:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Haemo, what was the source of F550's contribution to this diff on your talk page. If it's not just another lie, the time mentioned would confirm that the hoaxer(s) is/are based in the central time zone of the U.S., which would be evidence for the possible Fenwick H.S. connection. Deor 01:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Well, I don't really know any more than what the diff says, but if it's accurate, you might be right.  --Haemo 01:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But in that edit you added both parts of the exchange to your talk page. Where did F550's message originally appear? Deor 02:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, if you check the time-stamps, it originally was on my userpage.  I moved it, and replied to it, on my talk page in a single edit.  --Haemo 02:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Comments such as "You could also check with msnhst@microsoft.com., who is in charge of the 154.54.65.in-addr.arpa. zone." from RDNS makes me think the 65.54.*.*  person might just be using an MSN account and not necessarily be a Microsoft employee.  Cardamon 10:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I would have to question that blocking as looking at their contributions they seem to have been trying to expose this fraud as much as we are. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 10:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hardly.  They were trying to cover up their activities.  Corvus cornix 22:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Gustav was referring to , who did go a bit overboard in some comments, so the temporary block can certainly be justified. Deor 22:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems a little unfair to me, there doesn't seem to be anything particularly bad in their comments. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 23:52, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was surprised by the block too; but it won't kill the guy, who seems to be taking it pretty well, judging by the responses on his talk page (though he clearly disagrees with it). Deor 00:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry, Gustav, I misunderstood who you were talking about.  Corvus cornix 01:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can someone please block the real hoaxer who keeps posting on my page Special:Contributions/65.54.154.152. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 08:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And not only on yours... I warned him, to no effect, and have now blocked him. Bishonen | talk 09:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dynamic IP Nest

message: Here is the Grimaldi dynasty  please explain whre the Barbaro are connected. Of from this less official but more comprehensive tree with details of all the branches . Then this can then be verified. Thanks. Giano 06:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it has just occurred to me did the original writer of the article claiming ties with the Grimaldi family actually mean the Grimani family, as this would be far more likely? Giano 08:21, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether they meant it or not we'll never know. However they are connected to the Grimani as I think the book I referenced last night mentions it. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 08:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Note the Grimani family chapel was in San Francesco della Vigna. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 08:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done Gustav - that seems far more logical - I always felt the Grimaldi connection was dodgy. Giano 08:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grimaldi 

message: There was a book "Great Houses of Europe" from 1961 edited by Sacheverell Sitwell. Where does Anthony Hobson fit in? And how can a book from 1961 have an ISBN when ISBNs were only invented in 1966? Is it a re-printed re-edited version or what? DrKiernan 10:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed it was edited by Sitwell with different authors contributing to various chapters, the chapter concerning Barbaro os by Hobson. The book merely has a forward by Sitwell. It has an ISBN because I was using the 1970 reprint. Giano 10:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hobson's Great Houses 

message: This is a quote from the article as it now stands: "The male line of the Venetian branch of the family died out in the 18th century." So, presumably, the female branch of the line has somehow been succeeding at reproducing only females? Did someone read Houston, Houston, Do You Read? or something here? If it is supposed to mean that the Barbaro name has died out by lack of males to carry it on, I think a more direct statement to that effect would be in order. John Carter 19:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a fee wiki, if you know something add it and cite it. Giano 23:18, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it means that the male bearers of the name have supposedly died out. Although there is actually a Paolo Barbaro, native of Venice who actually recently wrote a book on it but maybe he was a descendent of immigrants? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 18:00, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question regarding "Male line" 

message: When discussing Palazzi Barbaro, we can be talking about two different palaces for two different branches of the Barbaro family. The San Vidal branch, who owned the large Palazzo Barbaro on the Grand Canal in the San Vidal neighborhood, and the Albergo branch who owned Palazzi Barbaro-Dario. Both branches palazzi are comprised of two joining palaces. Palazzi Barbaro-Dario is made up of a gothic structure and a unique marble clad structure that is often referred to being in the "Byzantine" style, though Ruskin still often referred to Dario as being Gothic style as well. Palazzo Barbaro at San Vidal is made up of a gothic structure and a baroque structure.
Right now, this article states that the San Vidal branch built the large Gothic Palazzo Barbaro, but this needs clarification. The San Vidal branch bought first the Gothic palace designed by the Bon brothers from a previous noble family and then later decided to build a second baroque palace right next to it to house the family's ball rooom. Therefore, what the San Vidal branch did was by buy one gothic structure and built a baroque structure right next to the palace they already owned. 
Hence, when we are saying Palazzo Barbaro, I am asuming that we are referring exclusively to the San Vidal palace, which is fine, and the Albergo palace would then be Palazzo Barbaro-Dario. Nonetheless, the article right now states that the San Vidals built the large Gothic Palazzo Barbaro which isn't completely correct. They bought Palazzo Barbaro, a gothic structure in the San Vidal neighborhood, and they built the Baroque palace right next to the gothic structure they already owned but did not build. I will go into the article and make this point clear.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.143.240.79 (talk) 12:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palazzi Barbaro 

message: Red Links on the Barbaro family article should remain to indicate where continued development needs to occur. If we are to seperate Palazzo Barbaro from Palazzo Barbaro-Dario, than the later deserves a red link to indicate where continued research needs to occur. Also, the two current heads of the existing branches of the Barbaro family are also noteworthy and deserve to remain as a red link. The information that was listed about them is what was included in the Giles source. I do not know any more about them than what listed there.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.142.117.219 (talk) 19:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look on the archived portion of this discussion page, you'll see that User:Starblind has commented: "In particular, editors should watch for mentions of 'Vitus Barbaro', on whom no reliable sources--or indeed any sources at all--have emerged. Sourcing on biographies of living persons is taken extremely seriously on Wikipedia, and claiming to have gotten a letter from some guy or called up a high school teacher is not a reliable source, and even if it's true (a doubtful scenario, let's face it), would constitute original research, which is also forbidden on Wikipedia." Unless you can come up with impeccable sources establishing this fellow's existence, and establishing that either of the two persons you added to the list (which is, after all, headed "Notable members"), are notable, the entries in question have no place in the article. Deor 20:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red Links 

message: Previous redlink has now been turned into an article, if anyone knows how to add a picture to the page please do so. I do not know how to do that. The Monet picture is copy-right free ThanksSave venice 06:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are possitive Monet was connected with the Palazzi Barbaro-Dario rather than the Palazzi Barbaro on the Grand Canal? Giano 16:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Show me the link and i will add it, though it is very easy - just save it to your computer then click on Uplpoad file and follow the instructions. Giano 17:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

text: This one ? Giano 06:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have uploaded the image, edited the page, and changed its name to Palazzo Dario is this is the more common and correct name. Giano 08:24, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Maybe you are correct, but the palazzi are not known by that name at all today, or even in the recent past, in fact not since the 18th century - if at all. If you want to write about that particular Palazzo Barbaro you can easily do so by calling the page :Palazzo Barbaro (Dorsoduro) Giano 18:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palazzo Barbaro-Dario 

message: Do we actually have a source that says that this person was "Grand Prince for the Knighthood of the Order of the Dragon"?? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 10:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Francesco Barbaro

message: The third branch of the family was removed by the justification that there is no source for them. This is not correct, and I will source it by Vittorio Spretti who completed a family history of the house. The third branch begins with Giovanni Battista  who contiunued on with his son Giambattista that married  a mediatized princessly line of the Campolongo and continued onwards. I will provide the source and page number for this when I return the section. Pleasse discuss matters on the talk page before removing relevant material.Save venice 17:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You claimed that the Sala dell'Albergo in the Scuola Grande di San Rocco was named for the Albergo branch of the Barbaro family. This is false and I don't see why we should believe anything else you say. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 18:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was edit conflicted - see below. -- !! ?? 19:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Giovanni Battista Line  

message: "The Princely Counts of the Grand Princes of Transylvania to the House of Habsburg-Lorraine" does not mean as the article states they were elevated to a cadet branch of Royalty. If they were indeed given a princely tile it was most likely as "serene" highness not "royal". Secondly a cadet branch of any family, royal or otherwise, is a family related by blood and descent, usually from a junior son whose family have been given lesser titles than that of the main branch. No one can be made a cadet branch. Giano 06:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where is the source that says a Barbaro was awarded this title? Is it in Enciclopedia Storico Nobiliari Italiana by Vittorio Spretti? I think we need someone to look at this book before we include any of these claims. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 10:59, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cadet branches 

message: OK, I don't doubt there is a family of Barbaros that settled in Malta and that they had the title Marchese di San Giorgio and later Count von Zimmerman through marriage. What seems less clear is that this Barbaro family is connected to the Venetian family. This tree traces only to a Pietro Barbaro of Naples who married Marietta Mancini at Valetta in 1631. If it is so certain that this family is connected to the Venetian family how is it that the "Libro d'Oro di Melita" does not show how Pietro Barbaro is related to them? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 11:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Maltese Barbaros

message: All sources need to meet citation guidelines; this includes verifiability.  In this case, while there was a lecture series given about Venice by the Save Venice NY chapter in 2007, with the guest listed attending, it appears to have been "San Sebastiano: Veronese's Church", not the Barbaro family as the citation notes.  Regardless, it's totally unverifiable; the lecture was never published, and no one can check to see that it ever existed.  As such, I've removed the material.  I would also note that Yale does not offer a PhD in Venetian Studies.  --Haemo 05:05, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourcing 

message: I am sorry that Save venice was blocked because I think they may have been genuine if a little misguided. It may be that this Albergo branch is documented in the "Enciclopedia Storico Nobiliari Italiana" by Vittorio Spretti, however even if they were I am not sure that S Barbaro would meet Wikipedia notability guidelines and we can't just document all the people related to one family that was once influential. I am not even certain that we should include the Maltese branch as I haven't seen anything which links them definitively to the earlier Venetian family apart from a claim on this website and a family tree here which doesn't give a direct link to this Venetian family although it does say Venetian patrician. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 17:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, it appears both those websites were made by Charles Said Vassallo, an Australian pest controller of Maltese descent who claims to be a Count - see this usenet discussion. It appears he has made numerous articles on Wikipedia which may not be reliable. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 18:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ..and Mr Vassallo's email address listed on his site bears more than a passing rememblence in name  to User: Tancarville. Giano 20:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From reading various discussions on Usenet I get the impression that the "Libro d'Oro di Melita" was an unpublished work by Mr. Said-Vassallo's granndfather so some of it MAY be accurate. Unfortunately it looks like Mr. Said Vassallo has added to it and he admits himself that he is only an amateur and hasn't quite found the right document that confirms that he is a Count... So can we accept the Libro d'Oro di Melita as a reliable source? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 21:14, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Re:Modern Barbaros

message: I cannot find such a book by Anthony Hobson but I can find one by Sacheverell Sitwell? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 21:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Preasumably not The Great Country Houses of Central Europe by Lord Michael Pratt (recently deceased)? -- !! ?? 22:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Giano might have added it, I'll wait for him to comment. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 23:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You have the correct book but it was only edited by Sitwell, Hobson wrote the chapter concerning Barbaro. Giano 15:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Great Houses of Europe

message: OK, I actually have found some verifiable information on some of people that Save venice mentioned in this book. I think it says that an Alessandro and Giovanni Battista Barbaro were descendents of Ermolao Barbaro and were councilman and presidents of the Court of Treviso. Here is a transcription maybe Giano can verify it does say that:
"<<Quella serie luminosissima di eroi, che mentre stanno a decoro dell'Italica, diro meglio, dell'umana famiglia, formano la gloria prima della patria (ossia della citta di Venezia), e l'onorato orgoglio dei nepoti>> In effeti dall'Enciclopedia storico-nobiliare italiana, I, Milano 1928, pp 502-503, risulta che nel 1818 due discendenti di Ermalao Barbaro, Giovanni Battista ed Alessandro Barbaro, divenuto consigliere aulico e presidente del Tribunale di Treviso, mori nel 1846."
I think possibly we should maybe reduce Save venice's block as a lot of the information they have added has turned out to be correct and not a hoax. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 23:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that information ultimately came from "Enciclopedia Storico Nobiliare Italiana" which does seem to be a reputable reference work. Could anyone in the US/Italy possibly check this as it doesn't seem to be availiable in the UK? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 23:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Update