Talk:Schadenfreude

message: I just created the first archive of this talk page.  For the most part, it contains a lot of debate about the appropriateness of "Pop Culture" and "Trivia" usages in this article (and its general quality of scholarship).  The debate never seemed to come to any solid consensus; if anyone wants to bring the subject back up, take a quick glance over Archive 1 to see the old debate. Peace and Passion (talk) 02:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive 1 contains ... 

message: I have serious doubts about "currillos" as a Cree equivalent of "Schadenfreude". I don't know a lot of Cree (or ᓀᐦᐃᔭᐧᐁᒧᐧᐃᓐ), but I know enough to think "currillos" looks way un-Cree. Don't have time to figure out who posted that particular line, but I thought those interested ought to be aware. In other words, I am nominating that particular line for deletion. --Haruo (talk) 07:15, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cree equivalent? I doubt it 

message: If this page is going to redirect from freudenschade, then it needs to at least mention the word (in the sense of sadness at another's joy, presumably). 149.138.100.1 (talk) 14:19, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: How interesting! Thanks for calling this to our attention, since I had no idea that "Freudenschade" re-directed here. (A history of that re-direct suggests the article began by assuming this word meant exactly what "schadenfreude" does.) A student humorist in 2006 wrote an article said there was a need for the word "freudenschade," saying "If Schadenfreude is feeling joy at the misfortune of others, then Freudenschade is feeling miserable at their joy."  But the article doesn't claim this word exists as anything but that student's invention. I am unable to find it in any dictionaries, online or otherwise, although it was once a Yahoo "worthless word of the day". It seems to be a word that has been multiply invented but hasn't caught on. betsythedevine (talk) 20:08, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  It´s definitely no german word. Reversing the parts of a word just produces nonsense, not opposite meanings, in the german language.
There is another invented "Gernam" word , gluckschmerz , which should at least be considered for mention in this article's discussion of related emotions , as a synonym of freudenschade .  This word appears in an article from the Wall Street Journal (12 June 2015) .  That article cites references , including a scholarly 2014 paper by Harvard psychologist Dr. Mina Cikara , who also authored a (possibly) related article at the Washington Post (27 Aug 2014) , and other contemporary and earlier uses .  The WSJ article states that Dr. Charles Baxter says he invented the word (it appeared in one of his short stories in a 1983 book) but that he didn't claim to be the originator ...  An earlier 1983 use was found in a weekly California newspaper , the Anderson Valley Advertiser . 
To my amusement , I found that the WSJ article (available from the above cited link only to subscribers) was kindly reprinted in the Anderson Valley Advertiser (14 June 2015 , just below the poem) . 
A google (news) search on gluckschmerz , which pointed me to the Washington Post article mentioned above , also turned up articles by the New Yorker (19 Mar 2015) , the Atlantic (17 Mar 2018) , and Forbes (21 Nov 2018) ... just in the first 10 returned links .  Subsequent links include an earlier (27 Nov 2014) Wall Street Journal article , and 2 more newspaper articles - dailytelegraph , and theguardian - both published in 2016 (and discussing Australian subjects) .  However , I did not find any Canadian or British articles in this search . 
Lastly , I (among about 8 million other TV viewers) was exposed to the word gluckschmerz when it's meaning was explained by a character on the CBS-TV show  Mom  that originally aired 09 May 2019 . 
Perhaps there are now reasons enough for a wikipedia editor to include gluckschmerz in  the related emotions section of the article page .  Mark T. mgt220 A yahoo dt com 70.106.141.7 (talk) 14:35, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

text: I've added information on Gluckschmerz to the article. Keep in mind that you could have added that information yourself, too! --Macrakis (talk) 16:51, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Freudenschade 

message: I am concerned that the section, "Literary usage and philosophical analysis" is synthesis in that it puts together information from multiple sources to reach a conclusion that is not stated explicitly by any of the sources. For example, the Book of Proverbs makes no such connection - or mention of - schadenfreude, so it cannot be connected, unless a citation explicitly connecting the two can be made. Can I get some input on what other folk think about this? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 16:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree,a nd have been waiting for someone to weigh in. It has been removed. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Somebody has since added it back in. I really don't know why it's there in the first place, other than maybe being an ancient reference to command AGAINST Schadenfreude. WillieBlues (talk) 16:27, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  section is synthesis 

message: At first I didn't understand the photograph and thought it was inappropriate for the article but it is really a good one.  Fixentries (talk) 18:32, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photograph 

message: What is the contribution of the current image to the understanding of the article subject?
-- Fallacies (talk) 08:10, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Schadenfreude is a pleasurable emotion resulting from the misfortune of someone else. Most people experience it to some degree when the misfortune is seen as deserved. The villain who suffers a well-deserved downfall is an occasion of schadenfreude to most people. The point of the illustration is to provide a familiar example of the concept. betsythedevine (talk) 14:03, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: What is the difference? Contextual examples would be helpful. DBWikis (talk) 20:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on their definitions, it would seem that gloating is by definition more intense, malicious, and overt than the usually inadvertent emotion expressed by schadenfreude. There some amusing examples of villainous gloating in this non-encyclopedia-quality source:  betsythedevine (talk) 20:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schadenfreude vs Gloating 

message: Why is the start of the article tagged as a Weasel word?.
This German word is used as a loanword in English and some other languages, including Danish.
I fail to see why it should be.--ThisSpace (talk) 20:04, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why a weasel word 

message: As German is my native language, I'm in doubt with this line of the article:
Alternatively, envy(or its German near-equivalent "Glückschmerz"), which is unhappiness in another's good fortune, could be considered the counterpart of schadenfreude.
The word "Glückschmerz" is neither common in German language, nor can it be found in popular dictionaries like classical Grimm's Wörterbuch at http://germazope.uni-trier.de/Projects/DWB or German Wortschatz at http://wortschatz.uni-leipzig.de/ 
To me it seems more like a rather naive composition intending to build a semantic antonym but failing to do so. Proper German terms for being unhappy in another's good fortune are Neid or Missgunst, the first one being a straight translation of English envy, the second meaning something like malevolence or jealousy. 
Asking the great Google, I can find only 440 occurences of "Glückschmerz", mostly in English language. Despite it may be "common" in English, it isn't in German and i strongly encourage to change it to "Missgunst". --89.186.128.99 (talk) 11:06, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Gluckschmerz is an English coinage. I've added information on it to the article. --Macrakis (talk) 16:53, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glückschmerz 

message: Lulz and Schadenfreude are (as near as I can determine) identical. Yet there's no mention of it so couldn't we reference the popularity of Schadenfreude in relation to interent culture.--Lookingthrough (talk) 22:07, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Schadenfreude describes a feeling of pleasure in somebody who observes someone else's trivial and/or deserved misfortune. People who set out to cause grief and pain to others, and then gather on the internet to express their delight in such achievements, are said to be seeking lulz. If you think these two things are identical, I disagree. If some reliable source says that schadenfreude can lead to sadistic behavior, or that schadenfreude is frequently seen on the internet, this article could certainly quote that source. I wonder if lulz should perhaps have its own article... betsythedevine (talk) 18:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: They are still related ideas, taking pleasure in others misfortune or harm. 98.24.154.187 (talk) 23:28, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  lulz??? 

message: Link to the Russian article in Language section is wrong - the Russian article has been deleted. --212.158.208.26 (talk) 17:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. Thanks. -- Quiddity (talk) 23:33, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  link to the Russian article in language section 

message: I see there is an English pronunciation of Schadenfreude, but not a German one. I could record it, but how would I upload it just as the English one is? IOA94 (talk) 22:59, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your thoughtful suggestion-- but material in Wikipedia must be based on published material, not on original contributions by our editors. betsythedevine (talk) 00:33, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think a recording of the pronunciation would count as OriginalResearch (else where would all our audio files come from?!). See Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia/Pronunciation task force for a guide, and ask at the talkpage there if you need assistance. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:58, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I stand corrected -- Quiddity seems to know a lot more about this than I do. betsythedevine (talk) 02:11, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  German Pronunciation 

message: I am Norwegian with one Swedish and one Danish parent here, hence trilingual and the claim that the scandinavian words skadefryd and skadeglädje are calqued from Germans seems very weird to me, especially not the Swedish word "skadeglädje". Such a claim should be followed by a reference of some sort. The words have existed for centuries in the scandinavian  litterature and language and I sincerely doubt it is a calcqued version of the german word "Schadenfreude". They don't even mean the same thing in fact. Schadenfreude refers to a more karma-like feeling where someone who have done you something wrong get exposed to something of a negative nature that could serve as a karma-like revenge. However in the scandinavian languages the words are referring to the more evil and "forbidden" feeling of experience joy for others mishaps, regardless of whether they deserved it or not. Consequently I find it highly unlikely that it's some sort of loan word, it's more likely just words that have been put together (extremely many words in scandinavian languages are in fact two words put together) as a result of a desire to name the forbidden feeling of feeling joy for others misfortunes totally unrelated to the german word, although resembling...
I propose the section claiming 
"and has been calqued in Danish and Norwegian as skadefryd and Swedish as skadeglädje."
get removed as it both lack plausibility and reference.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.105.200.88 (talk) 00:02, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A good etymological dictionary in any of those languages could solve the question one way or the other of calquing. But since, as you say, no reference is given to support the claim as it stands, I will add a  tag to solicit references. If no reference shows up, the claim should be removed. betsythedevine (talk) 00:13, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

text: I agree that it should be removed. There is no proof(or cite) that it's a word-for-word translation from deutsch, most germanic languages just work this way and doesn't the fact that it's a endocentric compound exclude the possibility that it's calqued? (or at least when both languages normaly use compound words as standard and not only in special cases like in english.)
I think that all calques I have seen have been exocentric compounds. Skadeglädje is a type of glädje, but for example pineapple is a calque because it's a exocentric compounds(it's not a type of apple and it doesn't have anything to do with pines).--83.189.147.216 (talk) 17:40, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

text: You are onto something central here. I am sure Skadefryd have a longer use in Scandinavia, esp. Denmark/Norway and that the Germans picked it up during the Hansa period. 152.65.36.146 (talk) 02:45, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Calqued by scandinavian languages? 

message: Possibly add section for references in popular culture
Avenue Q has a song about it.  Also, in season 3, episode 9 of Community (TV Series), there is a line that subtly alludes to schadenfreude.
CrocodilesAreForWimps (talk) 19:28, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schadenfreude in pop culture 

message: Added two additional studies to the 'Scientific Studies' section of the article. Crystalan13 (talk) 13:55, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the calqued thing, according to the Danish etymological dictionary the Danish word "skadefryd" is apparently derived from the German, since skadefryd in Danish didn't become a commonly used word until the 19th century. I suspect the same would apply to at least Norwegian but possibly also Swedish. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:57, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Scientific Studies' edit 

message: I believe that the tone of this article is too negative about the concept of Schadenfreude.  
This is an emotion that we are all very familiar with that helps us cope with misfortune.  When someone suffers a misfortune it is not uncommon for a friend to share a story that is similar in some way.  For example, when a significant other leaves or is unfaithful it makes a person miserable and he may call his friends to be around him in order to help him cope.  The friends will share stories about their own failed relationships that are often worse than what the unfortunate has experienced.  In doing so the unfortunate person experiences a bond of shared understanding and is comforted.
Adam Smith talks of fellow-feeling being an intrinsically pleasurable thing for humans.  Schadenfreude is a way to establish fellow-feeling with others.  It lets the unfortunate know that he/she is not alone, and it could be worse.
Doubtlessly it can be a wicked thing when it is manifested as a form of sadism or even a form of passive revenge against one who has wronged you.  Nevertheless, it is not necessarily a bad thing in all cases.
Unfortunately Adam Smith does not talk about Schadenfreude directly so I cannot add anything to the philosophy section about this concern.  I just wanted to mention it.
  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Being4itself (talk • contribs) 03:13, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not necessarily a wicked emotion 

message: The article says:
A distinction exists between "secret schadenfreude" (a private feeling) and "open schadenfreude" (Hohn, a German word roughly translated as "scorn") which is outright public derision.
But "Hohn" must not be confused with "Häme".
The mildest form of the three words is kind of "mockery" (Spott), if it comes to disrespect of another person, it's "scorn" (Hohn). And if one is adding Schadenfreude to that, it's called "rancorousness" or "malice" ("Häme").
Jackobli (talk) 18:59, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "Spott" is usually reserved for a witty remark bearing (justified) criticism, often identical to sarcasm.
"Hohn" is taking delight in the misfortune of others without regard to etiquette, just for the sake of amusement.
"Häme" is a malicious expression of feelings, taking satisfaction in the mischief of another person, often rooted in a grudge. 
Schadenfreude can be attributed to all three terms, but "Spott" takes it joy from the zinger, "Hohn" from the actual event and "Häme" from the damage ensued by it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.66.80 (talk) 19:49, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spott, Hohn and Häme 

message: The first paragraph of the "Scientific studies" section contains the sentence, "Other researchers have found that people with low self-esteem are more likely to feel schadenfreude than are people who have high self-esteem," attributed to an article in the New York Times. However, that article just says, "Research has shown that people with low self-esteem are more susceptible to schadenfreude than those whose self-regard is high," without identifying this supposed research by title or author. I believe this sentence should be removed or its reference updated to point to something more credible. Userboy87 (talk) 17:41, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unspecified "Scientific studies" 

message: As the current "Related words" section says, there are many words that could be considered "antonyms" for schadenfreude, in different directions: envy, compassion, mudita. I see no reason that any of them should be mentioned in the lead, any more than we mention antonyms of pride, peace, depression, etc., in their articles' leads.
It is also strange to combine, in the related words section, related concepts (which of course are expressed in words) and related words in other languages. I do think it would be useful to discuss the whole semantic field around related concepts, as discussed in, say, Richard Smith's Envy: Theory and Research or the papers in Schadenfreude: Understanding Pleasure at the Misfortune of Others.
Over-emphasizing the Buddhist concept of mudita also seems like POV-pushing. Interestingly, it isn't even mentioned in much of the literature about schadenfreude. --Macrakis (talk) 14:27, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Semantic field and antonyms

message: German: "Wie man in den Wald hineinruft, so schallt es heraus" speaks "What goes around, comes around", but literal translation may be more like: "When you shout into the woods it echos back." From https://www.duolingo.com/comment/1296465/Wie-man-in-den-Wald-hineinruft-so-schallt-es-heraus Please also mind notions of poor (moral) character or a corrupt mind, motivated by evil or so! 82.164.42.11 (talk) 17:34, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Counter the Schadenfreude 

message: The first paragraph of this article says that Schadenfreude is one of four related emotions, but not clarify what the other emotions are. Vorbee (talk) 21:27, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: First paragraph

message: i mean schadenfreude is (a rather exotic sounding) loanword from german. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schadenfreude and as for a "real english" word for (more or less) the same meaning https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gloat#English covers pretty much what is there to be said about it. the wikipedia article doesnt seem to add anything substantial to what can be learned from the dictionary while at the same time the WP article seems to get lost in musings about whether there should be a distinction between "rightful" or "true" and "uncorrect" schadenfreude/(evil) gloating. 
i think the lede needs the above two links added, otherwise a ridiculous notion arises that there arent any native english words to describe the notion of schadenfreude.89.134.199.32 (talk) 15:11, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  should not this article rather belong into the wiktionary? 

message: In the section Etymology, the word 'pluralised' is spelt with an S -- the British spelling.
In the section Psychological Causes, the word 'hypothesized' is spelt with a Z -- the American spelling.
This violates the Manual of Style at MOS:CONSISTENT. I suggest this article be rewritten, either in American or British English. Besenj (talk) 09:43, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistent dialect in this article 

message: It says in the article that there is no translation. In Norwegian there is it seems?
 
https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skadefryd 84.215.53.155 (talk) 21:34, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Norwegian translation exists? 

message: Article states that the English word for schadenfreude is 'epicaricacy', however, Wiktionary itself says that its use has been scant, plus Nathaniel Bailey's dictionaries (the only dictionary source) seems incredibly outdated, as the reference list dates it back to 1737 and 1751. It is also not recognised in modern dictionaries afaik.
Plus, isn't schadenfreude also an English word despite it being borrowed?
New user and unsure if I should edit this, so just going to leave this here. Qlovic (talk) 12:28, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  English Word