Talk:Lists of bisexual people/Archive 1

message: I personally would argue that unless there is a responsible reason to believe someone is bisexual, they should not be listed here; it is disrespectful to the person and also to the bisexual community (you wanna' join, you gotta' come out!). In short, unless the person is out, or has been outed by a respected source with good reason (e.g., a person working against gay rights) the person should not be listed. 
Removed:
David Cain - based on rumor 
Hugh Hefner - based on rumor and unsubstantiated reports 
Mick Jagger - based on rumor and unsubstantiated statement by one person 
Benji Madded - based on internet rumor 
Cynthia Nixon - no basis provided 
Eleanor Roosevelt - no basis provided 
jesse 19:13, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC) Jesse Liberty
I have restored Eleanor Roosevelt after substantial research I've found solid documentation of her bisexualtiy. Among other sources, see http://content.gay.com/channels/home/women/eleanor_000301.html
http://www.biresource.org/features/roosevelt.html  Jliberty 16:52, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
Woody Allen anyone?
: The guideline for living people is that there should be an entry in his biography which indicates when he came out, was outed or why you believe that he is queer and should be outed. Jliberty 16:43, May 15, 2005 (UTC) 
Marianne Faithfull, in her autobiography, suggests that Jagger has bisexual tendencies, but
she never mentions him acting upon those. He could possibly be put in the "disputed" category, but
I personally have problems with putting living people who have not admitted their bisexuality or 
homosexuality publically on these lists.
:I don't mean to keep harping on this, but one does not "admit" to homosexuality or bisexuality. Admit implies that the identity or behavior is bad (one does not "admit" to giving to charity or to being open-minded). Let's try to use "acknowledge". Jliberty 16:43, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
Removed Michael Stipe based on the grounds that he acknowledged he was gay in Blender, and obviously gay is not bi. User:Dudewhiterussian
::I'll sign on removing Hugh Hefner from the list; the main source of evidence for that is in his wild days he experimented. Bisexuality is a genuine phyiscal attraction to both sexes, not a mere curiousity. --David Youngberg 15:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of unsubstantiated

message: There is no way Angelina and Drew are bi. even Paris there is no way seeing as she made a sex tape. I think this artical has been tampered with.--Dylankidwell 22:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Angelina Jolie and Drew Barrymore articles discusses their bisexuality, actually. Olessi 04:35, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ...are you saying bisexuals do not have sex with men and/or videotape it?  Maybe you should look at the bisexuality article? JustADuck 23:18, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

text: don't forget that angelina had a pretty public relationship with another woman a few years back. Joeyramoney 21:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Angelina Jolie? Drew Barrymore? PARIS HILTON!? OH MY!

message: List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people encompasses all the names that can be included on this list.  However, that latter is the middle of some evidentiary cleanup to bring it up to encyclopedic standards (WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, but specifically the proposed WP:LISTS).  Duplicating names with different descriptions, citations and format is wasteful of editors resources.  If need be, those figures who are specifically bisexual could be annotated appropriately in the more inclusive list, even in some prominent typographic manner, or with coloration. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 07:13, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not just take all the bis out of the list of gay and lesbian people?  Above someone gave some good reasons for keeping the bisexual list seperate from the homosexual list. JustADuck 01:38, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because separating "gay" from "bisexual" people is an impossible and largely subjective quagmire, and is very often a matter about which a given individual's self-identification changes over time.  But largely also because the evidentiary standard of this list remains terrible, while the list of GLB people has started to undergo improvement. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 02:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not fix the bi list instead?  The people I see on this list are certainly bi, not homosexual.  I think there's a way of seperating it well. JustADuck 17:38, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Agree with you 100%. Bis are not just a weird version of gays. JustADuck 22:16, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The quotation marks around "biphobia" betray you. JustADuck 22:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Do you think you might convince some of those editors to come work on this page? :-(. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 18:43, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 10:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: I haven't checked others, but recently I've noticed the addition of names, specifically Elsie de Wolfe and Katherine Mansfield, for which no adequate reference to bisexuality was provided. In both cases, the articles say that they had a (generally-acknowledged) lesbian relationship, and that they married. Marriages-of-convenience e.g. between male and female homosexuals were not at all uncommon during the 1900s (and probably still are), and indeed so were marriages-of-convenience for social or financial reasons. 
The existence of a marriage does not come close to demonstrating the existence of a heterosexual relationship, and names should not be included in this article unless there is a good, verifiable reference that uses the word "bisexual" (or specifically spells out sexual relationships with members of both sexes). 
I'm not saying de Wolfe and Mansfield were not bisexual. At the moment I'm the main contributor to the de Wolfe article, and even in her case all I can say is that so far I have not run across anything using the word "bisexual." Nothing I've read specifically addresses the question of whether her relationship with Charles Mendl was sexual; that is, I haven't read anything that says it was, or have I read anything that uses any term like "marriage-of-convenience" or anything that suggests Mendl had other romantic interests. However, her relationship with Elisabeth Marbury seems to have continued after her marriage to Mendl. 
I don't know anything at all about Katherine Mansfield. I'm just saying, we need a source. The other names on the list should be checked as well to make sure there are verifiable citations for "bisexual," not just "person with a gay history married to a member of the opposite sex." Dpbsmith (talk) 12:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Lesbian who married" does not necessarily mean "bisexual" 

message: There should be two articles-one for bisexual men and another for bisexual women.
:Why? Ambi 04:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Divergence to Two Articles 

message: WIkipedia:Reliable sources says specifically that 
:Note that Wikipedia itself does not currently meet the reliability guidelines.
For purposes of meeting the verifiability policy, another Wikipedia article will not do. Of course, if the Wikipedia article itself contains a reference for the person's being bisexual, that reference can and should be copied into this one. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plus signs: not good enough 

message: This article is very self-referential... with lines like: Sources that support the inclusion of names in this list are either the biographical articles about these persons in this encyclopedia (marked with a "+" sign), or external sources as provided. (emphasis added). See WP:ASR. Addressing this would seem to be complex, as this is really set up right now as something of a meta-list and might not be appropriate for the article namespace. I'd think all stuff advising people on how the list is sourced and related to other Wikipedia articles should be moved to the talk page, at least. --W.marsh 14:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self-referential 

message: neither of them seem so disputable, especially lou reed whose parents put him in psychotherapy as a teen due to his homosexual tendencies. and i always thought that it was just common knowledge that david bowies was bi. Joeyramoney 21:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  david bowie and lou reed 

message: At the top of the page, it currently has "This article is part of the "Gay Pride" series on Wikipedia.". But is this article about gay pride (or even gays)? And does the banner even serve a purpose, considering that it uses no links and isn't part of a wikiproject? The only purpose I can think of is to say that the article is owned by those with the correct POV. Andjam 07:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While I think the link is somewhat tangential and could be removed, please stop throwing around baseless accusations. Rebecca 09:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gay pride series 

message: "In 1976, Elton released the downbeat Blue Moves, which contained the memorable but even gloomier hit "Sorry Seems to Be the Hardest Word". His biggest success in 1976 was the "Don't Go Breaking My Heart", a peppy duet with Kiki Dee that topped both the American and British charts. Finally, in an interview with Rolling Stone that year entitled "Elton's Frank Talk", a stressed John stated that he was bisexual."
This passage is taken from Elton John. Unless it's shown to be untrue, I will add Elton John back to the list if I see him removed again. Vancar 17:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elton John 

message: This page is an archive of potential libel.  I wouldn't mind deleting this entire article, but aside from that, I propose all uncited claims be removed now - perhaps moved to the talk page so interested parties can hunt for references. —Quarl (talk) 2006-07-04 06:18Z
:No objections here. I trashed some of the worst cases a while back, but it could do with going over with a fine-toothed comb. Rebecca 07:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about the WHOLE article. But a goooooood clean-up could be a good idea. --Deenoe 13:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Removed all entries that were tagged with . There are more entries that need to be deleted as these do not have any sources. Also, the "Disputed" section is 100% non-compliant with WP content policies. ≈ jossi ≈  t • @ 04:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You were definitely right in doing that. Unlike the X-American pages, this one is potentially offensive and could even be libellous. I'll remove the other unsourced entries within several days if no on sources them before that. Mad Jack 04:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See List of bisexual people List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people for an example of how such a list needs to be maintained: each entry is supported by a reliable source and there is a clear criteria for inclusion stated. ≈ jossi ≈  t • @ 04:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should remove all uncited claims 

message: Hard to know how to deal with this one as things stand, it's so muddled.
The article on Freddy Mercury states that 
:Although he had a very close girlfriend named Mary Austin, Freddie Mercury was fairly open about his homosexual tendencies. In a March 12, 1974 interview for New Musical Express he told the interviewer: "I am as gay as a daffodil, my dear!"[19] Although his relationship with Mary Austin eventually ended, the two remained very close friends, with Austin often fronting as his girlfriend for the press.[20]
*No sources are cited for Austin truly having been his girlfriend. Since the article asserts that later she pretended to be his girlfriend, we really need a source for her not pretending earlier.
*A source is cited for his calling himself "gay as a daffodil" and his death from AIDS is strong evidence that he did have homosexual relationships.
*A source is cited for Austin "fronting as his girlfriend for the press." Unfortunately, the cited source does not say anything about Austin fronting as his girlfriend. It is, rather, an interview which asserts that "The bloke, it turns out, is a mere heterosexual" and presents Mary Austin as truly being his girlfriend and being "'a bit puzzled' by her relationship with a simulated bisexual." In other words, we are to interpret it as an example of Austin dissembling for the press. But what the article actually says is that Austin is a heterosexual pretending to be bisexual.
In other words, what we actually have is:
*One source that says he is homosexual, not bisexual
*One source that says that he is heterosexual, pretending to be bisexual.
*The article itself, which says Mary Austin was originally a "very close girlfriend." (This elliptical phrasing is subject to more than one interpretation. It probably means a heterosexual relationship... but it doesn't say that.) It then says that had homosexual relationships, with Mary Austin pretending to be his girl friend... but citing no sources that support either statement.
As always, the question is not what I think or what is reasonable to assume, but what cited sources actually say. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Freddy Mercury 

message: I'm removing
* Elliott Berry, American musician
because no source was cited. It can (and should) be reinserted if and only if it is accompanied by a source citation from a source that states that the person is bisexual.
Cleaning up the older entries is a slow process, because an entry with a + sign amounts to an assertion that there is a source... and sometimes there actually is one. And since the old entries have been there a long time, many of them are probably valid and sources and probably be found, so it's reasonable to leave them for a while with a "citation needed" tag.
But new additions ought to comply with the verifiability policy, which is longstanding, official policy and is linked under every, at the time when they are added. As the verifiability policy says, supplying the source is the responsibility of the editor who adds the item. Dpbsmith (talk) 09:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced new additions 

message: * Queen Pen+, rapper
The linked article says only that one song, "Girlfriend," "explored same-sex affairs." Song lyrics, even by singer-songwriters, cannot be taken as literal autobiography. The external link, , describes the song as breaking a rap taboo, but says that "In person, she dances around the issue of her own sexuality" and "in conversation remains coy about her sexual orientation." So, according to the source, Queen Pen does not say she's bisexual, nor does the journalist say she's bisexual. Furthermore, the song, and the "taboo" says the article says it is breaking, seem to be about lesbianism, not necessarily bisexuality. So I'm removing this pending provision of a source citation. This is not to say Queen Pen isn't bisexual; she may well be; the point is that at the moment nobody has provided a verifiable source for that assertion. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsourced entries that really have no foundation at all

message: In 1995 Thompson told The Advocate that she had never "really" felt sexuality for another woman, but that "It probably will happen to me one day."   Based on that I'm not sure if she really belongs the list (but I don't feel strongly about it either way).  In any case, the previously cited reference to a relationship with a Swedish singer was a tabloid headline that has been retracted:  —Celithemis 23:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emma Thompson 

message: Bryher was lesbian according to a reliable source, Women of the Left Bank: Paris, 1900 - 1940 by Shari Benstock -- as well as the New York Times's book review of her lover H.D.'s best known biography .  If there's a reliable source saying she was bisexual instead, then it would be appropriate to list her and acknowledge both points of view.  But the current citation goes to andrejkoymasky.com, which is a self-published website that does not meet Wikipedia's reliability standards (and in which I've found many, many errors).  In any case, it too specifically describes her as lesbian. —Celithemis 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bryher 

message: What is needed is someone who is prepared to spend time gathering together the names of bisexual guys - there are many out there Pliny 10:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: one addedSoane 17:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Guys