Talk:Negev Bedouin

message: Am I the only one who sees the severe imbalance in this article? It basically says that Israel discriminates against the Bedouins and destroys their homes etc. etc. and only mentions in passing that the government provides education. However, the following points are either not clarified or not mentioned at all:
*Israel provides free housing to many Bedouins, many of whom refuse, but this isn't even a choice for most Jews who have to pay huge amounts for small bits of land/small apartments (except a minority eligible for shikunim - Amidar and such - also is underprivileged areas which are almost comparable to the poor conditions in Rahat etc.)
*Bedouin towns have very high crime rates, blood revenge is very popular there so there are a lot of murders, and the police is often afraid to enter these places. The Bedouin towns are generally anti-establishment, anti-law enforcement, etc. and this harms Israel's ability to help them.
*Because of the extreme high birthrate of the Bedouins, the government may have trouble providing many of them with basic services - this isn't just a result of discrimination (although I will admit that a certain degree of discrimination takes place)
*Most of the Bedouins who don't live in the permanent settlements (Rahat, Tel Sheva, etc.) and are not connected to electricty and water, do so out of choice, because they supposedly want to preserve their dignity. Some make temporary villages which are against the law (so they knowingly break the law), even though the government is actually interested in settling the Bedouins permanently, so it shouldn't be that difficult to acquire a permit to start construction.
*Some Arab MKs actively help Bedouins break construction laws and undermine the legal system in Israel, especially considering this is less of an issue of discrimination because neither Jews nor Arabs are allowed to just take a piece of land (in the Negev or elsewhere), settle on it and start building. This also severely harms the ability of the Israeli authorities to help the Bedouins.
-- Ynhockey (Talk) 07:23, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that this is problematic. TewfikTalk 09:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with a couple of your points. Why don't you add your points to the article?Vice regent 21:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: AGREE with your assessment 68.192.86.80 (talk) 17:05, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: This whole article is crap, and will be deleted if no one will rewrite it. Guy0307 (talk) 12:07, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be helpful if you were to tell us what parts of this article you object to. I'd have thought the omissions were much more significant than anything included. There is mysteriously no reference to the fact that the Bedouin do not have "nationality" in Israel, rendering them excluded in theory (if not always in practice) from 93% of the land. PRtalk 10:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV, take 2 

message: Let's begin a summary of requested edits below these headings:
===1. More good aspects of Negev Bedouin life that should be mentioned===
*Appointment of Bedouin  to gvt. positions: ;
===2. Government perspective on Bedouin===
*Add other sources: One example - 
:-Tal, Alon, 1960- Space Matters: Historic Drivers and Turning Points In Israel's Open Space Protection Policy
Israel Studies - Volume 13, Number 1, Spring 2008, pp. 119-151 Used
:- Bedouin information, ILA, 2007
:- "Off the Map: Land and Housing Rights Violations in Israel’s Unrecognized Bedouin Villages"; Human Rights Watch, March 2008 Volume 20, No. 5(E) (has a section on government rationale - obviously HRW is presenting a different view, but it considers the government perspective duly)
:-
:I have decided to reduce the quotes I formerly posted here for readability. I have pasted the rest to unrecognized villages, where all this should be dealt with in more depth. I have selected a few of the most relevant quotes and inserted them below: 
:YNET on Edri comments - treat the Bedouin like settlers: 
*"The Knesset must legislate a compensation/eviction law for the Bedouins in the South, similar to the compensation/eviction law for settlers from Gush Katif," Minister for Development of the Negev and Galilee, Yaakov Edri told Ynet.Atila Shomplavi."Minister for Development of the Negev: Compensation/Eviction for Bedouins in the South" Ynet, 27 July 2008
*Relying on recommendations from the Goldberg Commission, headed by Judge Eliezer Goldberg (currently drawing up policy concerning the settlement of Bedouins in the Negev) Edri told Ynet "a precise timetable must be determined for evacuating the lands held by Bedouins. Afterwards, if they don't leave voluntarily, Edri suggested establishing a special unit of the police and military, the task of which will be to forcibly evict the Bedouins. Edri notes that "'we must prepare the enforcement officials, the police and army for implementation of the law, as we did with Gush Katif. One who does not agree to evacuate for compensation – we will treat him as we did with the settlers."Atila Shomplavi."Minister for Development of the Negev: Compensation/Eviction for Bedouins in the South" Ynet, 27 July 2008
:Ynet - Bedouin response - we are not settlers, we are indigenous people: 
*Chairperson of the (Regional) Council of Unrecognised Villages in the Negev, Hussein Al Rafiya, said to Ynet in response to the proposal: "Instead of trying to evict us, Minister Edri should accept the fact that these are existing settlements and residents living on their lands."Sharon Rofeh-Ofir and Yonit Atlas. "Bedouins: "We are not Settlers, You will not Evict Us"; Ynet July 27, 008
*"These have been our lands, from prior to the establishment of the state, and I don't know why he offered this proposal, before we've even received the recommendations of the Goldberg Committee," said Al Rafiya.Sharon Rofeh-Ofir and Yonit Atlas. "Bedouins: "We are not Settlers, You will not Evict Us"; Ynet July 27, 008
*The Chairperson of Balad, Member of Knesset Jamal Zahalka, said: "Edri and his kind are dreaming of completing the work begun in 1948, to continue evicting people from their lands on which they lived a long time before Edri and those like him arrived here."Sharon Rofeh-Ofir and Yonit Atlas. "Bedouins: "We are not Settlers, You will not Evict Us"; Ynet July 27, 008
:HAARETZ on Edri's comments - let's wait for the Goldberg Committee findings:
*Housing and Construction Minister Ze'ev Boim reprimanded the minister for the development of the Negev and the Galilee, Jacob Edery, for calling for a law to displace the Bedouin from their lands and compensate them monetarily. In a letter to Edery, a copy of which was sent to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Boim rebuked him for making these statement at a time when the Goldberg Committee is formulating recommendations on the future of Bedouin community life in the Negev.News in Brief; Haaretz, July 29, 2008
:What the ILA calls the government's "generous offer":
*"Although Israel owns the lands over which the Bedouins are dispersed, it is prepared to examine all Bedouin ownership claims in court. By law and according to all existing records, the State of Israel is the sole owner of the land on which the dispersed Bedouin live." "The state has filed some 170 counter-claims (regarding more than 110,000 dunams), and in every case where a ruling has been handed down by the court, it has ordered the land to be registered as state owned....Although the Israeli government insists that it owns the lands occupied by the Bedouin dispersion, the state is prepared to grant immediate financial “compensation” and sometimes even alternative land to Bedouin who withdraw their ownership claims."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
* Starting ?????, and until December 2007, "A Bedouin who withdraws an ownership suit relating to 200 dunams will receive a state grant of approximately NIS 160,000. Bedouin who withdraw their ownership claims for 200 dunams of land (in the area covered by the masterplan for Bedouin villages) will receive a government grant of NIS 1,400,000. In addition to the cash grant, they also receive 40 dunams of agricultural land."p. 10[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
*Compensation for tribal lands includes: government services (accorded every other citizen),“Relocation Grants” of NIS 7,500 per family and NIS1,500 for each child (i.e. between approx.2,000$ and 6,000$), and an average of 800 meters of land. The government says "The compensation is many times the value of the illegal structures they leave"[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007 (but says nothing of the value of the land they reside on, plus the agricultural grounds surrounding, which is incomparable to the 'compensation' offered)
*The government's approach to investing in the Bedouin: "Israel is currently building 13 new villages or towns for the Negev Bedouin...The plans for the villages are based on statistical projections for the expansion of the Bedouin population until the year 2030."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
*"Aside from building new townships for the Bedouin in the Negev, the Israeli government plans to invest more than NIS 1 billion in a multi-phased program to improve the infrastructure of existing Bedouin towns and to develop their public facilities...As part of its plan to expand the existing Bedouin towns in the Negev, the ILA will double the size of the Bedouin town of Rahat. This is the largest construction project — costing an estimated half a billion shekels — undertaken by the Israeli government in recent years"[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
:The ILA's response to critiques:
*The government explains the lack of service in unrecog villages thus: "These services can only be provided to those living in permanent housing, and the fact that the Bedouin are dispersed over an extensive area prevents the state from offering these public services."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
*The government partially faults the Bedouin for hindering the government's provision of services, etc.: “In many cases, Bedouin lawsuits hinder the construction of new neighborhoods, the upgrading of existing village infrastructures, and the advantageous use of the land for the entire Bedouin population"[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
*The government explains the lack of services in recognized urban townships thus:"The percentage of homeowners in Bedouin towns who pay municipal taxes is problematically low. This makes it difficult for town councils to provide a decent level of services. When a sufficient number of residents pay their municipal taxes, the municipal authorities can substantially improve their services and thus improve living conditions for the Bedouin."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007   
*"The Israeli government continues its generous policy towards the Bedouin population by meeting their ever-increasing needs in every possible way."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007    
:The ILA's view on land disputes         
*"The Bedouin's claims are detrimental to the entire Bedouin population of the Negev"    [http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007                                        
*"Some elements within the Negev Bedouin population seek to establish facts on the ground and steal agricultural land. Despite the fact that Israel leases land to the Bedouin at a symbolic cost, the past few years have witnessed an increase in illegal squatting and land appropriation."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
*Regarding Bedouin land claims (the total area of the unrecognized villages): "In recent years, some of the Bedouin residing in the dispersed areas have started claiming ownership of land areas totaling some 600,000 dunams (60,000 hectares or 230 square miles) in the Negev – over 12 times the area of Tel Aviv..."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
*The ILA makes clear its threat to evict what it calls "callous lawbreaker" and "squatters", citing clause 18B of the Land Law: "Israel’s duty is to protect and defend its citizens. Israel cannot tolerate callous lawbreakers whose behavior is harmful to the law-abiding community. It is the state’s duty to evict squatters and restore the land to the citizens who leased it."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
*On crop destruction: "The state fights squatters by plowing up the land. The land is plowed once the seeds sown by the illegal farmers have sprouted."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
====Issues raised by Ynhockey====
*Information on high Negev Bedouin crime rates needs to be inserted, especially blood revenge and car theft (the main things the government is trying to fight, AFAIK) (Added by LamaLo - see p.33 from Kav Laoved about the Bedouin role in smuggling/human trafficking from Egypt - very sad) LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, the government did nothing until a few years ago to even begin to address the polygamy issue, despite a good deal of talk.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits suggested for NPOV

message: *Add other sources: One example - 
:-Tal, Alon, 1960- Space Matters: Historic Drivers and Turning Points In Israel's Open Space Protection Policy
Israel Studies - Volume 13, Number 1, Spring 2008, pp. 119-151 Used
:- Bedouin information, ILA, 2007
:- "Off the Map: Land and Housing Rights Violations in Israel’s Unrecognized Bedouin Villages"; Human Rights Watch, March 2008 Volume 20, No. 5(E) (has a section on government rationale - obviously HRW is presenting a different view, but it considers the government perspective duly)
:-
:I have decided to reduce the quotes I formerly posted here for readability. I have pasted the rest to unrecognized villages, where all this should be dealt with in more depth. I have selected a few of the most relevant quotes and inserted them below: 
:YNET on Edri comments - treat the Bedouin like settlers: 
*"The Knesset must legislate a compensation/eviction law for the Bedouins in the South, similar to the compensation/eviction law for settlers from Gush Katif," Minister for Development of the Negev and Galilee, Yaakov Edri told Ynet.Atila Shomplavi."Minister for Development of the Negev: Compensation/Eviction for Bedouins in the South" Ynet, 27 July 2008
*Relying on recommendations from the Goldberg Commission, headed by Judge Eliezer Goldberg (currently drawing up policy concerning the settlement of Bedouins in the Negev) Edri told Ynet "a precise timetable must be determined for evacuating the lands held by Bedouins. Afterwards, if they don't leave voluntarily, Edri suggested establishing a special unit of the police and military, the task of which will be to forcibly evict the Bedouins. Edri notes that "'we must prepare the enforcement officials, the police and army for implementation of the law, as we did with Gush Katif. One who does not agree to evacuate for compensation – we will treat him as we did with the settlers."Atila Shomplavi."Minister for Development of the Negev: Compensation/Eviction for Bedouins in the South" Ynet, 27 July 2008
:Ynet - Bedouin response - we are not settlers, we are indigenous people: 
*Chairperson of the (Regional) Council of Unrecognised Villages in the Negev, Hussein Al Rafiya, said to Ynet in response to the proposal: "Instead of trying to evict us, Minister Edri should accept the fact that these are existing settlements and residents living on their lands."Sharon Rofeh-Ofir and Yonit Atlas. "Bedouins: "We are not Settlers, You will not Evict Us"; Ynet July 27, 008
*"These have been our lands, from prior to the establishment of the state, and I don't know why he offered this proposal, before we've even received the recommendations of the Goldberg Committee," said Al Rafiya.Sharon Rofeh-Ofir and Yonit Atlas. "Bedouins: "We are not Settlers, You will not Evict Us"; Ynet July 27, 008
*The Chairperson of Balad, Member of Knesset Jamal Zahalka, said: "Edri and his kind are dreaming of completing the work begun in 1948, to continue evicting people from their lands on which they lived a long time before Edri and those like him arrived here."Sharon Rofeh-Ofir and Yonit Atlas. "Bedouins: "We are not Settlers, You will not Evict Us"; Ynet July 27, 008
:HAARETZ on Edri's comments - let's wait for the Goldberg Committee findings:
*Housing and Construction Minister Ze'ev Boim reprimanded the minister for the development of the Negev and the Galilee, Jacob Edery, for calling for a law to displace the Bedouin from their lands and compensate them monetarily. In a letter to Edery, a copy of which was sent to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Boim rebuked him for making these statement at a time when the Goldberg Committee is formulating recommendations on the future of Bedouin community life in the Negev.News in Brief; Haaretz, July 29, 2008
:What the ILA calls the government's "generous offer":
*"Although Israel owns the lands over which the Bedouins are dispersed, it is prepared to examine all Bedouin ownership claims in court. By law and according to all existing records, the State of Israel is the sole owner of the land on which the dispersed Bedouin live." "The state has filed some 170 counter-claims (regarding more than 110,000 dunams), and in every case where a ruling has been handed down by the court, it has ordered the land to be registered as state owned....Although the Israeli government insists that it owns the lands occupied by the Bedouin dispersion, the state is prepared to grant immediate financial “compensation” and sometimes even alternative land to Bedouin who withdraw their ownership claims."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
* Starting ?????, and until December 2007, "A Bedouin who withdraws an ownership suit relating to 200 dunams will receive a state grant of approximately NIS 160,000. Bedouin who withdraw their ownership claims for 200 dunams of land (in the area covered by the masterplan for Bedouin villages) will receive a government grant of NIS 1,400,000. In addition to the cash grant, they also receive 40 dunams of agricultural land."p. 10[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
*Compensation for tribal lands includes: government services (accorded every other citizen),“Relocation Grants” of NIS 7,500 per family and NIS1,500 for each child (i.e. between approx.2,000$ and 6,000$), and an average of 800 meters of land. The government says "The compensation is many times the value of the illegal structures they leave"[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007 (but says nothing of the value of the land they reside on, plus the agricultural grounds surrounding, which is incomparable to the 'compensation' offered)
*The government's approach to investing in the Bedouin: "Israel is currently building 13 new villages or towns for the Negev Bedouin...The plans for the villages are based on statistical projections for the expansion of the Bedouin population until the year 2030."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
*"Aside from building new townships for the Bedouin in the Negev, the Israeli government plans to invest more than NIS 1 billion in a multi-phased program to improve the infrastructure of existing Bedouin towns and to develop their public facilities...As part of its plan to expand the existing Bedouin towns in the Negev, the ILA will double the size of the Bedouin town of Rahat. This is the largest construction project — costing an estimated half a billion shekels — undertaken by the Israeli government in recent years"[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
:The ILA's response to critiques:
*The government explains the lack of service in unrecog villages thus: "These services can only be provided to those living in permanent housing, and the fact that the Bedouin are dispersed over an extensive area prevents the state from offering these public services."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
*The government partially faults the Bedouin for hindering the government's provision of services, etc.: “In many cases, Bedouin lawsuits hinder the construction of new neighborhoods, the upgrading of existing village infrastructures, and the advantageous use of the land for the entire Bedouin population"[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
*The government explains the lack of services in recognized urban townships thus:"The percentage of homeowners in Bedouin towns who pay municipal taxes is problematically low. This makes it difficult for town councils to provide a decent level of services. When a sufficient number of residents pay their municipal taxes, the municipal authorities can substantially improve their services and thus improve living conditions for the Bedouin."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007   
*"The Israeli government continues its generous policy towards the Bedouin population by meeting their ever-increasing needs in every possible way."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007    
:The ILA's view on land disputes         
*"The Bedouin's claims are detrimental to the entire Bedouin population of the Negev"    [http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007                                        
*"Some elements within the Negev Bedouin population seek to establish facts on the ground and steal agricultural land. Despite the fact that Israel leases land to the Bedouin at a symbolic cost, the past few years have witnessed an increase in illegal squatting and land appropriation."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
*Regarding Bedouin land claims (the total area of the unrecognized villages): "In recent years, some of the Bedouin residing in the dispersed areas have started claiming ownership of land areas totaling some 600,000 dunams (60,000 hectares or 230 square miles) in the Negev – over 12 times the area of Tel Aviv..."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
*The ILA makes clear its threat to evict what it calls "callous lawbreaker" and "squatters", citing clause 18B of the Land Law: "Israel’s duty is to protect and defend its citizens. Israel cannot tolerate callous lawbreakers whose behavior is harmful to the law-abiding community. It is the state’s duty to evict squatters and restore the land to the citizens who leased it."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
*On crop destruction: "The state fights squatters by plowing up the land. The land is plowed once the seeds sown by the illegal farmers have sprouted."[http://www.mmi.gov.il/Envelope/indexeng.asp?page=/static/eng/f_project.html "The Beduin of the Negev", Israel Land Administration, updated as of March 11, 2007
====Issues raised by Ynhockey====
*Information on high Negev Bedouin crime rates needs to be inserted, especially blood revenge and car theft (the main things the government is trying to fight, AFAIK) (Added by LamaLo - see p.33 from Kav Laoved about the Bedouin role in smuggling/human trafficking from Egypt - very sad) LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, the government did nothing until a few years ago to even begin to address the polygamy issue, despite a good deal of talk.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 2. Government perspective on Bedouin

message: *Information on high Negev Bedouin crime rates needs to be inserted, especially blood revenge and car theft (the main things the government is trying to fight, AFAIK) (Added by LamaLo - see p.33 from Kav Laoved about the Bedouin role in smuggling/human trafficking from Egypt - very sad) LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, the government did nothing until a few years ago to even begin to address the polygamy issue, despite a good deal of talk.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Issues raised by Ynhockey

message: *We need a good description of the Bedouin Administration, its history and its present 
*We need a good description of the Goldberg Committee (does not include a single representative from an unrecognized village)
*We need a good description of the Regional Council of Unrecognized Villages
*We need a brief list of active organizations in the region, Bedouin and Jewish, working for reforms in government approaches to the Bedouin
*Funding issues - tax base and budget allocations: One -http://cmsprod.bgu.ac.il/NR/rdonlyres/718C7DB8-8BD6-47CD-9C2A-16E824166341/48052/BackgroundStudies1.pdf source] from Harvey Lithwick and Eran...
*An academic article which tries to represent the government view: Yahel, Havatzelet.
Land Disputes Between the Negev Bedouin and Israel
Israel Studies - Volume 11, Number 2, Summer 2006, pp. 1-22
LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 18:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 3. More info on relationship between Bedouin and government

message: Just wanted to raise the issue of statistics/numbers, briefly. The RCUV still says there are 45 such villages. HRW has started to say 39. The RCUV says half of the Bedouin live in unrecog villages while the ILA says only 40%. This is largely due to the fact that several of the villages now considered part of the recently-formed Abu Basma Regional Council are still unrecognized, in a strange yet unsurprising turn of events. Thus the RCUV has continued to include the unrecognized villagesd within the Abu Basma Regional Council in its count (until the former unrecognized villages within the council receive services and the remaining unrecognized villages receive final recognition of their village lands) and estimates the population higher due to high birth rates as well. This should somehow be included in the article, but I lack a citation at present. Also, we need stats for much of the article, especially government stats - anyone ready to get to work?LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 21:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So sorry, I put this citation in today to support this statement: The report described polygamy in the Bedouin sector a “security threat” and advocated means of reducing the birth rate in the Arab sector.Cook, Jonathan:”Unwanted Citizens,” Al-Ahram, Jan 10, 2002 Canadian Monkey rightly removed it. The report did indeed say that, but the cited source says mnothing of the sort. Again, apologies!LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 02:39, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations - stats on pop., etc. 

message: Note: I am adding all this hoping that editors who come to this page will respect the delicacy of this issue. I ask that people use this information in a humanistic way, keeping in mind that there is 95% unemployment in many unrecognized villages and around 30% in urban townships. It also goes without saying that this data does not apply to the majority of Negev Bedouin. Finally, it should be noted that while the Bedouin population as a whole has been severly demonized as "criminals," as is evidenced below, Bedouin lawbreakers often work in cooperation with Jewish mafia who it is clear do not experience the same demonization (I can't prove the demonization is worse towards Bedouin, but it is pretty obvious if you live in Israel):
*Kav LaOved report, p. 33: Smuggling people into Israel across the Egyptian border: "Over 70% of migrant workers in Israel entered the country with a legal working permit.91  
Others arrived as tourists or were smuggled in, having paid large sums of money to 
smugglers.  Smuggling workers has increased in recent years following the tightening of 
controls on entry through Ben-Gurion Airport and Haifa Port, and the steady increase in the 
numbers of people refused entry to Israel.92 In most cases smuggling follows a path used until 
recently only by traffickers in women, drugs, and arms. The workers land in Egypt, are 
transported to the Sinai Desert, where they meet Bedouin guides who lead them in an arduous 
journey, mostly on foot, through the desert and across the border into Israel.  According to 
data gathered by volunteers of the Hotline for Migrant Workers in the prison, the fee charged 
for smuggling a worker across the border into Israel ranges from $3,500 to $4,000. 
 
IDF troops patrol the Egyptian border in an attempt to catch the migrants, but with very little 
success due to the length of the border.  In an article published in Haíaretz, Uzi Havshush, a 
commander of an IDF reserve force assigned to patrol the border and prevent the entry of 
contraband, provided a list of products and people regularly smuggled across the border: ìJuly 
22: three bags of marijuana.  July 24: six bags.  July 24: 25 prostitutes.  July 26: ten 
prostitutes.  July 28: ten prostitutes. July 30: two jeeps heading to meet each other changed 
course after being identified. July 31: four Egyptians got into a vehicle awaiting them on the 
Israeli side.  Not far from there the crossing of four foreign workers and one woman was 
recorded.î93 
 
Despite the security risks, from the Israeli point of view, the authorities are doing very little to 
prevent the smuggling from taking place, but instead prefer to concentrate on catching the 
people who have crossed the border. 
 
A Ghanaian national who wished to give information on Israeli and foreign citizens who, he 
claimed, were involved in organizing illegal migration across the Egyptian border, was held in 
prison for over eight months after being arrested for being in Israel unlawfully.  His lawyer 
informed the Attorney-General that his client was prepared to give evidence on this matter, 
and the Hotline for Migrant Workers approached the Commissioner for Foreign Nationals at 
the Ministry of Internal Security and the head of the Immigration Administration in this 
regard.94   Police officers came to take the Ghanaianís testimony several months ago, but 
nothing was then done about it, and he was eventually deported.  This fact attests to the 
attitude of the authorities who prefer to ignore the organizers of the human contraband.
 
Footnote 93: Avihai Becker, "Chase" Haaretz Weekend Supplement, August 9, 2002." 
From another report, Trafficking in women: "IX. Corruption Within the Police Force: Collaboration between traffickers and policemen exists in two manners: a passive manner where policemen visit the brothels as clients, and an active manner which involves cooperation with traffickers and tipping off of police raids." LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 03:02, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources for crime problem 

message: Now, in conjunction with the 'criminal image' of the Bedouin also come high death rates among Bedouin engaged in theft and many times, mere traffic violations. I have data on this and will insert it as soon as I get a chance.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 18:35, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the deaths from traffic violations are in traffic accidents, but maybe that's not what you were talking about. I have a couple articles somewhere with the police claiming that Bedouins are reckless drivers and often kill themselves and other people as a result. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:30, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

text: The Mossawa Center has documented dozens of killings of Arab citizens of Israel by police, the majority of them Bedouin. Sometimes police have killed Bedouin while chasing them down for suspected criminal activity. However, in various cases, police have shot and killed Bedouin when they failed to immediately stop their cars upon request. The essential point is that the police are not so trigger-happy with Jewish citizens, and that if 38-something Jews were shot in such circumstances, there would be investigations. In the case of the killings of Bedouin, as far as I know, no action has been taken.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 18:18, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for clarifying. My only hope is that police statements exist for notable killings like you mention (if indeed they happenned), because I'd hate it if the Mossawa Center was our only source for these claims. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 21:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I am sure there are police statements saying essentialli that "such-and-such Bedouin man" failed to stop at a traffic light at 3:24, July 24th and "such-and-such police officer" was forced to shoot him. But how would you get access to such records? LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 23:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Police brutality against Bedouin 

message: It would be good to have a short section dealing with the relevance of Beer Sheva as a regional trading site throughout hundreds of years. Also should be noted that the regional mosque there has been off-limits for prayer, transformed several times into secular uses and such.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 19:39, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ber Seba

message: I added this section today - we need a bit ,more info, with more citations, dealing with polygamy and other issues. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:07, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The facts in the first paragraph are correct, and it's all about spin. If you read the MMM report I posted earlier, it says the exact same thing, except that the lack of punishment for polygamy is presented as being considerate to the Bedouin population, which cannot be expected to change their customs overnight. So at least part of the facts are not disputed. The other paragraphs are more up for debate, I hope that other sources are provided to balance the claims, also we may want to examine Amnesty's footnotes which may provide a wealth of new information. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 21:36, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I don't know how we could get across the complexity around this issue, but, I know that many Arabs who are against polygamy do view the government as complicit in the continuation of this practice which really has no rational place outside a nomadic context. The reason many look upon the government's 'delicate', as in almost nonexistent, handling of this issue with cynicism and frustration is that somehow the government has not been too worried about upsetting the delicate balance of Bedouin life as far as self-subsistence agriculture or land rights go, and has been plenty strict about enforcing the law in such a way as to severely curtail the Bedouin way of life as desert 'wanderers'(they were never really wanderers), but has never been too keen to curtail the aspects of Bedouin tradition which harm women and thus hold back Bedouin society asd a whole. Furthermore, the end of semi-nomadism severely hurt Bedouin women's status in the family - today they have far less of an economic role, and with the lack of jobs around, obviously they are not going to enter the workforce and compete with their unemployed husbands. Clearly, outside government intervention to combat a deeply rooted cultural practice would be difficult, and Bedouin themselves are primarily responsible for this matter. However, don't you think if the government had gotten started on it in the 50's onward, there would be progress? We have seen what the government can when it wants to confiscate Bedouin lands, impose State ownership, and evict what it calls 'squatters' etc. - so we know it is capable of orchestrating huge transformations. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 19:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Women's status 

message: It's not all on the government, but until 2005 the government had done nothing to rectify the problem (and thus how can the government complain about the polygamy problem?) Another Amnesty quote:
"Polygamy is forbidden by Article 177 of the Penal Law (1977) and is punishable by up to 5 years in prison. However, no polygamous husbands are known to have been prosecuted for the offence, and polygamy continues to occur among Israeli Bedouins. Precisely because it is a punishable offence, the extent of the phenomenon of polygamy is not known. According to survey carried out amongst Israeli Bedouin women in the Negev region in 1999 by the Nazareth-based Arab Association for Human Rights, 40% of Bedouin women were living in polygamous households. 
Often Bedouin men formally marry their first wife and subsequently unofficially marry a second or a third woman. In some cases the man formally divorces from his first wife in order to formally marry a second wife; in such cases the divorce is a purely administrative procedure and the couple remains "informally" married. Situations in which the divorcees continue to live in the same household are common amongst Israeli Bedouin in the Negev region. 
In the Bedouin community in the Negev region, the combination of high level of poverty, very conservative social structures, and stringent logistical constraints, which make it impossible to build additional houses, prevents women from starting new independent households away from their former spouses and families. In addition to the practical problems of lack of financial resources, and children’s custody, it is socially more acceptable for a woman to be in a polygamous marriage than to return to her family as a divorcee. Hence in most cases the only option is to remain in the house of the former spouse. 
Certain government policies compound the problem of Bedouin women living in polygamous situations, rather than assisting women to get out of such situations. The authorities do not prosecute men for violating the law forbidding polygamy, but often penalize divorced women who live near their former spouse by denying them the single mother benefits, even in cases where the women are no longer living with their former spouse.
The authorities are currently in the process of amending the Penal Law. The authorities’ explanation of the proposed amendment, which passed the first reading in the Knesset in March 2005, is that the phenomenon of polygamy has increased among the Bedouin population and that "the tool in usage for circumventing the legal prohibition is ‘apparent’ divorce from the first wife, when in actual fact she continues to live in the husband’s house or in proximity and continues to take care of the children and the household while this is full polygamy".(127) The proposed amendment would extend the definition of polygamy to include divorced women who live "close to" the former spouse. 
The adoption of this amendment in its current form would have widespread and detrimental financial consequences for all formally divorced women who continue to live near their former husbands’ home – which applies to many divorced Bedouin women because they want to be near their children and continue to take care of them, and/or because their parents home is in the same area (in the Bedouin society marriage between relatives is very common). The fact that the proposed amendment does not define the term "in proximity/close to" widens the scope for denying single mother benefits to divorced women on the grounds that they live "near" their former spouses.""Briefing to the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women"; Amnesty International, 2005  LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:31, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The facts in the first paragraph are correct, and it's all about spin. If you read the MMM report I posted earlier, it says the exact same thing, except that the lack of punishment for polygamy is presented as being considerate to the Bedouin population, which cannot be expected to change their customs overnight. So at least part of the facts are not disputed. The other paragraphs are more up for debate, I hope that other sources are provided to balance the claims, also we may want to examine Amnesty's footnotes which may provide a wealth of new information. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 21:36, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I don't know how we could get across the complexity around this issue, but, I know that many Arabs who are against polygamy do view the government as complicit in the continuation of this practice which really has no rational place outside a nomadic context. The reason many look upon the government's 'delicate', as in almost nonexistent, handling of this issue with cynicism and frustration is that somehow the government has not been too worried about upsetting the delicate balance of Bedouin life as far as self-subsistence agriculture or land rights go, and has been plenty strict about enforcing the law in such a way as to severely curtail the Bedouin way of life as desert 'wanderers'(they were never really wanderers), but has never been too keen to curtail the aspects of Bedouin tradition which harm women and thus hold back Bedouin society asd a whole. Furthermore, the end of semi-nomadism severely hurt Bedouin women's status in the family - today they have far less of an economic role, and with the lack of jobs around, obviously they are not going to enter the workforce and compete with their unemployed husbands. Clearly, outside government intervention to combat a deeply rooted cultural practice would be difficult, and Bedouin themselves are primarily responsible for this matter. However, don't you think if the government had gotten started on it in the 50's onward, there would be progress? We have seen what the government can when it wants to confiscate Bedouin lands, impose State ownership, and evict what it calls 'squatters' etc. - so we know it is capable of orchestrating huge transformations. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 19:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Polygamy

message: Amnesty Notes: 
*Very few health care facilities are available in the unrecognised Bedouin villages in the Negev, mostly basic mobile clinics or caravans,(114) and according to the Israeli NGO Physicians for Human Rights (PHR-Israel) the number of doctors is a third of the norm.(115) Thirty-eight villages have no medical services,(116) and ambulances do not serve the unrecognized villages, denying residents ready access to emergency health care. "Briefing to the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women"; Amnesty International, 2005 (citing  J. Cwikel and N. Barak, Health and Welfare of Bedouin Women in the Negev, The Centre for Women’s Health Studies and Promotion, Ben Gurion University, 2001) 
*The State has provided no water infrastructure for the unrecognized villages. In some villages residents have managed by buying containers of water, and, more recently, pipes have been installed to bring water into some villages. Due to the high desert temperatures, fungi, bacteria and rust develop very quickly in the plastic containers or metal tanks, leading to numerous infections and skin diseases (e.g. scabies).Without Water! Position Paper on the Right to Water in Unrecognized Villages. PHR-Israel September 2004
*In 2003, the infant mortality rate (IMR) was 13.3 per 1,000 births in the Negev, when it was 3.9 among the Jewish population and 5 among the Israeli population at large.Without Water! Position Paper on the Right to Water in Unrecognized Villages. PHR-Israel September 2004
LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:27, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting information, although I believe that 90% of it should go to the unrecognized villages article, because these statistics do not appear to apply to Bedouins in permanent towns like Rahat and Tel Sheva. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 21:33, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I am ambivalent on this issue, leaning more towards including info about unrecognized villages only in its main article. However, because these villages are central to the Negev Bedouin subject, most of the info (especially statistical) could be included here as well. However, it should be included in a NPOV manner, i.e. distinction should be made about recognized vs. unrecognized villages when detailing access to utilities and services, because there is usually a clear statistical difference. You can't just provide statistics for unrecognized villages and claim that they apply to all Negev Bedouins. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 16:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Health

message: Amnesty Notes: 
*For example, there are very few education facilities for the population of the seven unrecognized Bedouin villages in the Abu-Tulul al-Shihabi area near Beer Sheva and Dimona, and the right to education of the population has been overlooked for years.(110) The nearest high school for a population of 12,000 is 15 kilometres away. This has had particularly negative impact on girls who account for 77% of the drop out rate.(111) Such situation is particular to the Bedouin villages; by contrast and the Israeli authorities have promptly provided much smaller Jewish villages in the Negev region and elsewhere in Israel, as well as Israeli settlements in the Occupied Territories, with road networks and education and other facilities."Briefing to the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women"; Amnesty International, 2005 (citing  J. Cwikel and N. Barak, Health and Welfare of Bedouin Women in the Negev, The Centre for Women’s Health Studies and Promotion, Ben Gurion University, 2001) LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:27, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really think this part is disputed, and Amnesty's report is much more neutral than the Wikipedia article, in that it provides the facts (this is suprising, coming from the anti-Israel Amnesty, but that's for another discussion). The Amnesty article doesn't claim that the Bedouins in unrecognized villages get no education, just that it's hard to get, and far away (although we should clarify that the length matters because of transportation, not actual distance, because 15 km is really not much). -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:18, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

text: You're right, 15 km. not that much. FYI - I just posted all these quotes here for future reference, was not expecting a dispute:)  LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 18:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education 

message: Hi there, 
I moved most of the Unrecognized villages article here, since it all belongs here anyway; I will be editing down the other article and adding in other info. Don't be afraid - I will be cutting out some of the SYNTH in the next day or so. I've run out of time today! Sorry. Trust me, I'll go back and edit things down somewhat. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 21:42, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  I moved a lot from [[Unrecognized villages]] 

message: See this article: "In Israel, the Negev Bedouins are often presented and perceived both by Jews and Arabs alike as a group of “loyal and obedient” citizens of the State. Like the Druze, they are viewed as being completely different from the rest of the Palestinians of Israel.1 Their relationships to the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are considered inexistent. This commonly held opinion is often buttressed by reference to their “cultural specificities” and in particular to their “nomadic culture”. Additionally, their political behavior is also cited, and is too frequently reduced to their voluntary enlistment in the Israeli army, and their low level of political militancy hostile to the State of Israel as compared to other Palestinians with Israeli citizenship or more simply, their reticence in presenting themselves as Palestinians. The idea that the Negev Bedouins are an isolated and a specific group is clearly also rooted in the words and deeds of the actors involved. This idea is further strengthened by direct or indirect support from researchers who have investigated this group. To date, the studies dealing with the Negev Bedouins have cast them solely in a binary relationship with Israeli society.2 Although some of these writers note the ties Bedouins have maintained with their relatives and neighbors in the West Bank and Gaza3 over the last fifty years, none have found it relevant to examine this issue more deeply. From January 1998 to July 2000, while I was conducting research on this group, I was struck by the recurrence and the regularity of meetings and cross border exchanges involving Negev Bedouin and their relatives or neighbors living in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip or in the Sinai. Occurring as ‘non-events’, these activities cast doubt on the accepted view of relationships between the Bedouins of the Negev and their Palestinian neighbors and call for a renewed approach to this group and its status within the Israeli-Palestinian space."Cédric Parizot. "Gaza, Beersheba, Dhahriyya: Another Approach to the Negev Bedouins in the Israeli-Palestinian Space"; Bulletin du Centre de recherche français de Jérusalem, 2001.
Border guards, precedent ( I don't know where my citation for this is,  but it is interesting): After being forced off land from the Shoval area of the Negev by the Israeli military in the early 1950s, the State settled the Abul Giyan Bedouin clan in Attir. In 1956, the government strategically placed the Abul Giyan near Israel’s border with Jordan, and these Bedouin internal refugees turned into border guards. The military provided guns to the Abul Giyan Bedouin, and instructed them to shoot Arabs sneaking across the border into Israel. In 1970, after Israel’s conquest of the West Bank erased the Jordanian border near Attir, the government confiscated the weapons previously distributed to the Abul Giyan for purposes of policing the border and preventing the movement of other Arabs. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 05:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  National identity/relations with Palestinians 

message: I believe that the Unrecognized Villages article should be the center for such info, however there should be a short section included here as well.  
*Creating a timeline of demolitions over at Unrecognized villages would be fantastic (Unfortunately, I have not been charting demolitions over the years, and it would take loads and loads of work.)
*Another thing - it needs to be clear that 85% of the Negev (which is 60% of the country) is off-limits to Bedouin, and that 90% of the former Bedouin range has been confiscated from the  Bedouin. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 18:31, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It should also be made clear that these restrictions only apply to certain applications. For example, it is fully legal and possible for a Bedouin to acquire a home in Mitzpe Ramon, or Tel Aviv for that matter. Your statement implies otherwise. Other than that, I agree about the content being in the other article. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 16:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demolitions/land confiscation 

message: This was deleted today, citing a partisan source:
"As yet the Israeli government has not seen fit to address this disparity through equitable budget allocations: in the 2002 budget, Israel's health ministry allocated Arab communities less than 0.6% of its 277 m-shekel (£35m) budget (1.6 m shekels {£200,000}) to develop healthcare facilities.Worlds apart | Israel and the Middle East |Guardian Unlimited" Love it or hate it, the Guardian is the Guardian, the NYT of the UK, reputable and citable. You may kind of hate Chris McGreal, and hate the point he is making in this article especially, but the citation refers to the statistic he mentions, not to his larger point. I think deletion of this vital bit of info (not Mcgreal's opinion) is not going to fly. I'm not re-inserting as yet, awaiting discussion. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 23:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it because it is not about the Negev Bedouins, or even Israeli Bedouins in general, but about Arabs in Israel. As such it does not belong in this article. Please find sources that explicitly and directly discuss Negev Bedouins. When you do, please make sure their claims are inserted into the article in a neutral, encyclopedic tone, rather than McGreal's polemic one.Canadian Monkey (talk) 02:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

text: To what Canadian Monkey said, I'd also like to add that the statistic could use examination, preferrably in a document detailing the health ministry's budget. Unless I'm missing something, development of healthcare facilities doesn't comprise the bulk of the health ministry's budget (additionally, according to Yediot, about 20% of the health budget is not even allocated anywhere), so 0.6% of the total budget could be a much larger percentage of the facilities development budget. Just a thought. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 16:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Another thing is that Arab cities don't have any high-tech expensive hospitals, and most Israeli Arabs are treated in hospitals located in Jewish cities, without discrimination. As such, there isn't much reason to allocate huge funds for development of healthcare facilities in the Arab sector. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 16:48, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guardian quote: .6% of health ministry funds for developing Arab facilities

message: The Abu Basma Regional Council article very clearly says "the creation of the Abu Basma Regional Council involves the recognition of villages that were previously under threat of demolition". The list you refer to at the end of that article does not appear to be sourced - and is very dubious. For example, it lists Drijat as one of the unrecognized communities - yet we have a source in this article that documents the fact that the Israeli Ministry of the Interior has installed a world's-first solar power system for the entire village - which would indicate that this village is recognized. Please provide sources for the claim that the villages that are part of ABRC are still unrecognized.Canadian Monkey (talk) 02:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abu Basma and unrecognized villages 

message: It is interesting to compare the negev bedouins to other pastoral communities. you may wish to read more about Iranian Arabs in Khuzestan, another bedouin population for example. i'd be happy if you could provide more examples for comparison so we can start to make a decent comparison.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by MiS-Saath (talk • contribs) 10:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison to other pastoral communities 

message: In response to the complaint that there are not enough official Israeli viewpoints, I added some material on Ben-Gurion's view of the need to expel the Bedouin and take their land in the  Negev. I am not fully satisfied, however, as there is a lot more material on this and I do not have time to do more now, nor do I have all my books at my current location. Also, I think there needs to be a separate section on the expulsion that lays out the bare facts and timeline. I will do this in a few weeks when I get home and have all my books at hand.--Tirpse77 (talk) 17:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume you've done so in good faith, but this version does not adhere to Neutral point of view and uses highly opinionated and emotional language. since you've replaced a well-referenced section with another one, i see no harm in reverting. in particular, this is not what i thought needed addressing, and benny morris is not a spokesmen for the israeli government or a representative of it. MiS-Saath (talk) 20:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The language is quoted almost exactly from the source material. Please do not simply delete sourced material just because you do not like it. First you complain that official Israeli views were not included, now you complain that they are too included. If you have specific suggestions about how to make the material more NPOV I would welcome that, but it is a total violation of WP practice to delete RS material simply because you do not like it. The source is impeccable, the material is directly relevant, hence there is no grounds for deletion. You can however make some suggestions for how to improve it. While Benny Morris is not an Israeli government spokesman, he is citing Israeli government documents and quoting Israeli officials. Are you arguing that Morris is not a reliable source? Please be clear about what your problem is with the material. --Tirpse77 (talk) 05:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Also, for the record MiS-Saath, I did not "replace a well-referenced section with another one." I did not remove ANY sourced material. I added additional sourced material and references and you had absolutely no grounds to remove it. If you revert again without engaging in discussion and showing why the sourced material is inappropriate I will assume that is an act of bad faith. --Tirpse77 (talk) 09:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, i thought you had replaced the Lustik referenced text with morris' text. i misread the diff. MiS-Saath (talk) 11:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

text: The references were accurate based on what I originally wrote and which another editor objected to. The plan in question is of course Plan Dalet, which I mentioned when I first inserted the section. In any case, I will rewrite this section comprehensively in a few days using multiple sources so there can be no doubt. Will that satisfy you? --Tirpse77 (talk) 13:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you are planning a comprehensive rewrite, I suggest you place your proposed changes here for discussion, before putting them into the article itself. This will prevent the kind of source misrepresentation that plagued the previous contribution. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:18, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

text: I second Canadian Monkey's suggestion/request. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:37, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am happy to do that as long as everyone else agrees to do the same. There was no source misrepresentation at all. If you check all the original references I used and page numbers they all referred to specific facts.--Tirpse77 (talk) 13:20, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate your willingness to cooperate on this, and will happily submit any comprehensive rewrites I might propose in the futiure to this talk page for review before making them in the article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Expulsion and views of Israeli leaders

message: It seems that there are editors who wish this article -- by their own admission -- to reflect Israeli government viewpoints. They are engaged in tendentious editing and edit-warring, removing sourced material and refusing to engage in any discussion about that material. I urge them to stop their aggressive edit-warring and engage in peaceful discussion about the actual material, which they have refused to do.--Tirpse77 (talk) 05:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A single revert per editor does not make an edit war. please keep to your cool. MiS-Saath (talk) 11:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My sourced material was reverted wholesale twice without either editor engaging in substantive discussion or suggesting alternatives. I am glad that you have decided to engage in discussion and have some respect for the work of others.--Tirpse77 (talk) 12:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I also fail to see what's wrong with having the article also reflect the israeli government's viewpoint. MiS-Saath (talk) 11:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The key word is "also." Some people -- and perhaps I do not mean anyone here -- believe "only" is the appropriate standard. Thankfully you do not agree with that. Please be advised I will be adding material from Ilan Pappe's book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine as the forced expulsion beginning in 1948 was a major traumatic episode that shaped the life of an entire community for the past sixty years and deserves more than one or two sentences in an encyclopedia article. I really think Expulsion and Flight deserves its own section, followed by a separate section "Under Israeli Administration." I hope you are ok with that?--Tirpse77 (talk) 12:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please be advised that Ilan Pappe is not a reliable source per WP:RS. About your comment about expulsion and flight, I think what you're doing here is WP:SYNTH. If Benny Morris claims that there was in the past a pattern for the expulsion of Bedouins, that can be inserted, but you can't put other cases of perceived maltreatment under the same heading without violating WP:SYNTH (unless Morris or another reliable source explicitly links the events to a central pattern).
Really??? And on what basis do you claim that an internationally-recognized, peer-reviewed historian and an Israeli scholar is not an RS? I must say I can't wait to hear this one. And you have clearly misread Wikipedia:RS. In any case, there is plenty of evidence. --Tirpse77 (talk) 13:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

text: About the government's viewpoint, I think you should go back to the reason why this whole discussion was started in the first place. I added a POV tag to the article, and it was generally agreed that in order to make the article NPOV, it required the government's side on the contentious issues. Adding more and more insinuations made by fringe 'historians' like Ilan Pappe, Noam Chomsky (a linguist), etc. doesn't help the matter in any way. Remember that the ultimate goal is to make the article NPOV, not insert as much info as you can from any source you can find. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 16:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Fortunately, there's a policy called WP:RS, which excludes fringe historians like Pappe or Khalidi. Morris, however criticized, has been agreed on as a reliable source on Wikipedia, however. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:06, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Pappe is not "maintream", his extreme views are a minority even within the minority which is the group of so-called "New Historians". Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:15, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

text: You don't really need us for that, just read the article on Ilan Pappe and look at the references, especially for the Katz controversy and the critical assessment section. For example, Seth J. Frantzman of the reputable journal Middle Eastern Quarterly, said that Pappe's work is "a cynical exercise in manipulating evidence to fit an implausible thesis." Benny Morris, a much more reliable and well-known historian, loved and hated by both 'sides', also heavily criticizes Pappe's work. And this is just from the Wikipedia article. There are many more examples, if you look beyond Noam Chomsky, Walid Khalidi and John Pilger (after whom, by the way, a word was named (to pilger), meaning 'to tell lies'). -- Ynhockey (Talk) 15:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Tendentious editing and edit-warring

message: I've temporarily removed the following text from its location:
"Another major source of employment were regional mines and the Ramat Hovav toxic waste facility and its factories, all very hazardous occupations. Bedouins were generally discriminated against in employment, as preference was given to Jews, and as of 1958, employment in the Bedouin male population was less than 3.5%."
This cannot possibly be mentioned together with the 1950 employment problems, as ramat hovav was founded in 1975 according to its page. please help me to put it in its right location as i can't seem to access the reference it points to. MiS-Saath (talk) 12:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think you should have removed the material. You could simply have added a tag so that another editor will know there is a discrepancy and look for the material. If it is removed to the talk page that is less likely. I am sure you do not want the matter ignored. Have you checked the source or otherwise determined that there were no facilities whatsoever prior to 1975? WP is not a source for WP articles so please restore this material and add the appropriate tag. --Tirpse77 (talk) 12:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked the ramat hovav municipality website. you can readd it with the tag if you like, i just hate to leave pages in process with known problems. it's not an immensely important thing so that its temporary removal makes for any significance. i'm not sure though what's the employment rate of bedouins compared with non-bedouins in the facilities. but anyway if it bothers you, feel free to re-add it. perhaps you could access the source, i can't see it for some reason. MiS-Saath (talk) 13:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Some disputed changes should go under the dispute resolution process, i.e. discussion before editing. However, I'm not sure how it helps to dispute a clear-cut case like this. It doesn't hurt the article to remove anachronistic info. Keep in mind that edit histories are preserved, so if we 'lost' a sourced paragraph in an edit, which was made in order to make the article more accurate, the sourced text can always be re-added in the appropriate location. As Mis-Saath says, it doesn't help to keep content tagged forever if the issue can be resolved quickly and easily. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 16:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, thanks for catching that MiSSaath, Ramat Hovav was created later. This sentence was left over from a time when the article was organized differently. On the other hand, this sentence could easily go further down, in the "today" section; it would have been easy enough to move it down there, no? (As far as edit summaries go, although we do our best to summarize every edit, when a lot of changes are made, they cannot all fit in the edit summary.) LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 17:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I just noticed that you cut both sentences, i.e. not just the hazardous occupations sentence but the one about 1950s employment discrimination. I cannot imagine why, simply because one sentence is identified as improperly placed, the one after it (which is properly placed) would have to be deleted? Thank you for bringing it to the talk page, but next tim when you do so, please don't leave behind the citations (there was a citation for the 3.5% quote earlier). Nuanced editing is a must when editing out or editing down sections.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 18:05, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, i stand corrected. i thought this was already mentioned earlier. But i see it's fixed now. MiS-Saath (talk) 20:54, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chronological error 

message: It appears that this article and the Drijat article contradict hebrew wikipedia. hebrew wikipedia states that 'In particular, the people of drijat are NOT bedouins, they differ from them in descent and culture, and have come to the area in the 19th century from the south hebron hills'. the drijat website itself does mention that they're fellahin, but says nothing to either assert or negate their bedouiness. i believe that the omission is more telling, coupled with the fact that they do assert that they come from south hebron hills and not desert nomads. therefore i'm removing the word 'bedouin' from both this article and the drijat article. maybe we should even remove its entire content from this page, but that's not something i'll do 'just like that' without prior talk. MiS-Saath (talk) 21:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drijat 

message: I am thinking of creating several subheadings here:
*Ownership disputes: State land or indigenous rights?
*The State response (with two further subheadings - Eviction, demolition and uprooting, and Construction, development and concentration)
*The Bedouin response (with two further subheadings, perhaps? - Self-subsistence on agricultural settlements, and Investment in urban development (not sure these subheadings will be necessary, we'll see)
*The demographic issue
LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 23:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no objections, go for it. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

text: actually, before you do that, can you make sure the unsourced statements in this section, which have been tagged for a while, are either sourced, or removed? Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:14, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Sounds great. Go for it. MiS-Saath (talk) 15:34, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello there. I haven't had time of late, and may not for a few days. When I manage to get to it I will look for citations, too. Best, LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 16:41, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am, too, busy with another topic, vaguely related. but when i have time, i'll come to revisit your work here. MiS-Saath (talk) 16:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demolitions, development and demographics 

message: I am not disputing the edit per se, but the statements presented seem dubious. Firstly, because this article discusses Negev Bedouins, not Bedouins in general, so I'm not sure some of the references (Golan, etc.) apply. Moreover, I've never seen a connection between Arab Negev Bedouins and Amalek, let alone the Nephilim or Rephidim. The reference is not quite clear either; no details of the book are given, and neither are the pages. A clarification would be helpful, but if possible, I'd also like to see scans of the pages for personal knowledge (unrelated to Wikipedia). -- Ynhockey (Talk) 15:40, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent addition of prehistoric context 

message: I deleted an alleged quote in the History section, it was conjecture and cited no source  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.157.116 (talk) 01:05, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It clearly did cite a source, even though the template didn't work. A few seconds work turned up the quote, I've replaced it with a working reference, page number, and link to Google Books. I don't know why you claim it didn't cite a source. dougweller (talk) 07:36, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: This article portrays the Bedouin in the Negev as though they are not Palestinian. This is false. They identify as Palestinian, and are intrinsic part of the Palestinian people. Attempts to split them off from Palestinian are common in Israeli Jewish discourse (per the source linked, not my soapboxing). This article needs an overhaul and the title should be changed to Palestinian Bedouins in Israel, or more broadly Palestinian Bedouins, which could be expanded in scope to discuss the same Bedouin population but those who ended up in the West Bank and Gaza. Tiamuttalk 19:19, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Misrepresentation of Bedouin identity

message: This may find a place in the article: Israel razes Bedouin village. Respectfully, RomaC TALK 02:35, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Al-Arakib 

message: Where is the list of tribes?Koakhtzvigad (talk) 01:42, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please feel free to add it. —Ynhockey (Talk) 16:13, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tribes? 

message: Drijat doesn't seem to be a Bedouin town, according to the source given:
"Situated at the foothills of the Hebron Hills, Drijat is the only Palestinian Arab village in the Negev. The residents traditionally are agricultural laborers as opposed to Bedouin nomads."
Thus, I'm removing it from the article.VR talk 07:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Not a Bedouin town

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thread_title: File:Unrecognized villages map english-1-.JPG Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: This might be useful. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:46, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  paper relevant to this article 

message: The article lacks any mention of the Prawer Plan, aside from much else.
See  Jillian Kestler-D'Amours, The End of the Bedouin, at Le Monde diplomatique, 2 August 2012. Nishidani (talk) 17:53, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prawer plan 

message: While the situation for Bedouin is alarming due to systematic destruction of homes, eviction and deportation (see the reference: UN Human Rights Council, 25 August 2011, Report of the Special Rapporteur on the rights of indigenous peoples, Annex VI, pp.24-31, removed on 19 August "for the sake of objectivity"), the ethnic cleansing is hidden in the article.
One simple example may be the Black Goat Law of 1950, mentioned in one single sentence. It was used to evict the Bedouin from most of the Negev and said to be adopted to prevent land erosion. Yet, the Bedouin have been there for many centuries and after 1948 there was a fraction of the people left. If the Bedouin were harming the environment, which is not obvious, it was due to the fact that they were forced to remain in restricted area's.
Another one of the many hidden POV's is denying of their status as indigenous people (see the same ref) and thus justifying deportation and ethnic cleansing.--Wickey-nl (talk) 13:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole article is an exercise in euphemism, and looks like a print-out from some official government brochure. It has no point of contact with the historic realities of Negev bedouin, or WP:NPOV. Nishidani (talk) 16:11, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manipulation 

message: Regarding this edit: The source that the sentence about raiding is cited to says:
As late as the mid-eighteenth century they were fairly prosperous, engaging in some desultory agriculture and fishing but living primarily by raiding large caravans and selling the booty in Gaza or in smaller centers.  Their decline began with the rise to power of the puritanical Wahhabis in Arabia in the late eighteenth century and with the French invasion of Egypt in 1798.  The Bedouin were forced to reduce, though not cease, their raiding, and they acquired a monopoly on guiding, handling the camels for, and provisioning the caravans that crossed the peninsula.  But the decline in pilgrimages to Mecca following the defeat of the Wahhabis and the accession to power in Egypt of Mohammed Ali curtailed even this legitimate source of income.
So the material was in there because it's in the source.  Whatever the intention of whomever put it in, it is in the source.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 16:15, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Raiding, denigrating Bedouin, and the source cited 

message: This source needs an English version or the text will be removed.   http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-2810919,00.html  109.157.215.52 (talk) 20:01, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, non-English sources are allowed (see WP:NONENG). If the citation is not relevant to the article (particularly when dealing with politically sensitive articles), the correct protocol is to to insert a request for translation as per this template. Once you have done so, you are welcome to point it out on the talk page. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also, 109.157.215.52, you don't own this article, so it is actually not you who gets to decide what will be removed and what not. That is what consensus is for. Debresser (talk) 00:54, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  English source required 

message: I am planning on writing a new article about the status of Negev Bedouin women, which will cover these topics: access to education, employment/participation in the labor force, the changing status and roles of women (as a result of outside changes), ability to access healthcare, and the role of cultural norms in women's status. Any feedback on sources/other topics to include?NogaArdon (talk) 23:04, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done, NogaArdon. I've only had a cursory look at your new article, but it's certainly looking good so far! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:35, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Planned new article

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: During the war, Negev Bedouin favoured marginally both sides of the conflict;[32] most of them fled or were expelled to Jordan, Sinai Peninsula, Gaza Strip, West Bank. In March 1948 Bedouin and semi-Bedouin communities begun to leave their homes and encampments in response to Palmach retaliation raids following attacks on water-pipelines to Jewish cities.[33] On 16 August 1948 the Negev Brigade launched a full-scale clearing operation in the Kaufakha-Al Muharraqa area displacing villagers and Bedouin for military reasons.[34] At the end of September the Yiftach Brigade launched an operation west of Mishmar Hanegev expelling Arabs and confiscating their livestock.[35] In early 1949 the Israeli army moved thousands of Bedouin from south and west of Beersheba to a concentration zone east of the town. In November 1949, 500 families were expelled across the border into Jordan and on September 2, 1950 some 4,000 Bedouin were forced across the border with Egypt.,[36] Only around 11,000 of the 110,000 Bedouin population remained in the Negev.
:A third possible explanation for hiding the file concerns previously unpublished historical testimony about the expulsion of Bedouin. On the eve of Israel’s establishment, nearly 100,000 Bedouin lived in the Negev. Three years later, their number was down to 13,000. In the years during and after the independence war, a number of expulsion operations were carried out in the country’s south. In one case, United Nations observers reported that Israel had expelled 400 Bedouin from the Azazma tribe and cited testimonies of tents being burned. The letter that appears in the classified file describes a similar expulsion carried out as late as 1956, as related by geologist Avraham Parnes:
:"A month ago we toured Ramon [crater]. The Bedouin in the Mohila area came to us with their flocks and their families and asked us to break bread with them. I replied that we had a great deal of work to do and didn’t have time. In our visit this week, we headed toward Mohila again. Instead of the Bedouin and their flocks, there was deathly silence. Scores of camel carcasses were scattered in the area. We learned that three days earlier the IDF had ‘screwed’ the Bedouin, and their flocks were destroyed – the camels by shooting, the sheep with grenades. One of the Bedouin, who started to complain, was killed, the rest fled.”Hagar Shezaf,  Burying the Nakba: How Israel Systematically Hides Evidence of 1948 Expulsion of Arabs Haaretz 5 July, 2019 Nishidani (talk) 13:39, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ahem 

message: Palestinian Bedouin appears to be a POV fork of Negev Bedouin, to push the POV that these Bedouins are an organic part of the Palestinian people. Virtually all the contents there appears here, with less POV terminology.Inf-in MD (talk) 00:45, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I've redirected that article here. Inf-in MD (talk) 16:21, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Ive reverted, if youd like to redirect that article then feel free to take it to AFD. nableezy - 20:44, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

text: What is there is not what could be there, the topic Palestinian Bedouin meets our notability requirements and as such should have its own article. I was justified in reverting that bold redirect as well. nableezy - 17:04, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Yeah. Any merge would require a name change, which the promoters don't appear to grasp. Bedouin refers to a very complex set of historical groups right across the IP area, from Israel, Israel's Negev, the West Bank and Gaza. In Emmanuel Marx's terminology, Bedouins are amalgamations of individuals in a bounded territory, not some unified tribe with a distinct origin in the Negev, which the merge would imply. The co-called Ghawarna erstwhile of the Hula Valley were widely called 'Bedouins' though their origins are extremely complex - their oral histories speak of origins in Syria, Arabia, while many perhaps came from sutlers attending Ibrahim Pasha's 1830 conquest.Nishidani (talk) 14:52, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Palestinian Bedouin does not discuss any of these groups (Bedouins from the West Bank and Gaza, Ghawarna). If you want to change that article content to discuss them, do so, but right now it is a duplicate, POV fork of Negev Bedouins. Inf-in MD (talk) 15:59, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It in fact does discuss Gazan Bedouin. nableezy - 18:30, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, it does not. It has a single line, in the lead, that says "The Bedouin community has lived in the Bi’r as-Saba’/Naqab region, stretching from Gaza to the Dead Sea, since at least the fifth century". That's it, and even that line places Gaza in the Negev region.. Inf-in MD (talk) 20:15, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You see the word Gaza there? nableezy - 20:29, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, a single word, placing it the context of the Negev. A better case for a merge could not be made, thanks. Inf-in MD (talk) 20:33, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, Palestinian Bedouin clearly covers more than Negev Bedouin. As there is fairly obvious no consensus for the merge Ill be removing the tag now. nableezy - 20:37, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The topic of Palestinian Bedouin may or may not be broader than Negev Bedouin, but this article does not show that. In its current form, it is a POV fork that should be deleted or redirected. If you want to write a new article that does covers the subject in a way not already done at Negev Bedouin, go ahead, but we should not keep a POV fork in the hope that someone, someday, might make it an acceptable article. Inf-in MD (talk) 20:42, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: And now it includes material on West Bank Bedouin. Anything else? nableezy - 20:43, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Alrighty. And once we remove the WP:COATRACK which duplicates what is in Negev Bedouin , i.e all of the  "Land Struggle" section , and much of the "overview" section (which I will do), it will be ok to keep  it. Inf-in MD (talk) 20:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That material has consensus, given it has stood for five years, according to you. You'll need an RFC to see if there is no longer consensus, again according to you. nableezy - 20:55, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Shocking development, does not practice what he preaches. Huh. nableezy - 21:03, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: If there's opposition to my bold changes, we'll take it through an RfC, of course. Perhaps you should read WP:AGF. Inf-in MD (talk) 21:21, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe there has already been stated opposition. nableezy - 21:32, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: to the merge, yes. To my article content changes, not that I have seen. Inf-in MD (talk) 22:24, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: slated for destruction rewritten as 'subject to  dismantlenment'. That is euphemization. 'dismantling' is a careful technique of taking a structure apart neatly, without damage to the parts, so that they can be used to rebuild the affected structure. They Bedouin housing units are smashed by bulldozers. The 'care' taken is evidenced in the rubbleNishidani (talk) 08:43, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  dismantle 

message: In the introduction, there's this sentence: "Between 1968 and 1989, Israel built seven townships in the northeast of the Negev for the Bedouin population, with about 60% of them relocating to these areas. The biggest of them, Rahat, has reached a population large enough that in 1994 it was recognized as a city, making it the largest Bedouin city in the world."
This is an objectionable sentence. What even defines a "bedouin city"? There are plenty of larger cities in the Middle East whose populations are formerly bedouin tribes: Najran, Bisha, Arar, Hafr Al-Batin, Sakakah... High surv (talk) 09:48, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's a pretty dubious statement, for the reasons above and more. This is identity politics at work, oversimplification, and makes for unencyclopedic reading. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rahat as "the largest Bedouin city in the world." 

message: The Palestine Gazette No. 1163, Supplement 2, 15th January, 1942, pp131-132.
====‘Azâzima Tribes====
‘Asiyât,
Farâhîn,
Mas‘ûdiyîn,
Muhammadîyîn,
Murei‘ât,
Er Riyâtiya,
Sarâhîn,
Sawâkhina,
Subeihât,
Subeihîyîn,
Zaraba
==== Hanâjira Tribes ====
Abû Middein,
Dawâhira,
Nuseirât,
Sumeirî
==== Jubârât Tribes ====
Abû Jâbir,
‘Amârîn Ibn ‘Ajlân,
Duqûs,
Hasanât Ibn Sabbâh,
Mashârifa (Ruteimât el Fuqarâ),
Qalâzîn Thawâbita,
Rawâwi‘a,
Ruteimât Abû el ‘Udus,
Sa‘âdinat Abû Jureibân,
Sa‘âdinat en Nuweirî,
Sawârikat Ibn Rafî‘,
Walâyida, El,
Wuheidât Jubârât
==== Sa‘îdîyîn Tribes ====
Hamâyita and Sawaiyât,
Madhâkîr,
Ramâmina,
Rawâyida and Nukûz
==== Tarâbîn Tribes ====
Ghawâlî Abû ‘Amra,
Ghawâlî Abû Bakra,
Ghawâlî Abû el Husein,
Ghawâlî Abû Khatla,
Ghawâlî en Naba‘ât,
Ghawâlî Abû Shalhûb,
Ghawâlî Abû Suheibân,
Ghawâlî Abû Sitta,
Ghawâlî el ‘Umûr,
Ghawâlî ez Zurei‘î,
Hasanât Abû Mu‘eiliq,
Jarâwîn Abû Ghalyûn,
Jarâwîn Abû Su‘eilîk,
Jarâwîn Abû Yahyâ,
Najmât Abû ‘Âdra,
Najmât el Qisâr,
Najmât es Sûfâ,
Najmât es Sunnâ‘,
Najmât Abû Suwâsîn,
En Nu‘eimât,
Wuheidât
==== Tayâhâ Tribes ====
‘Alâmât Abû Jaqîm,
‘Alâmât Abû Libba,
‘Alâmât Abû Shunnâr,
Balî,
Banî ‘Uqba,
Budeinât,
Dhullâm Abû Juwei‘id,
Dhullâm Abû Rabî‘a,
Dhullâm Abû Qureinât,
Hukûk Abû ‘Abdûn,
Hukûk el Asad,
Hukûk el Bureiqî,
Hukûk el Huzaiyil,
Janâbîb,
Nutûsh,
Qalâzîn Tayâhâ,
Qatâtiwa,
Qudeirât el A‘sam,
Qudeirât Abû Kaf,
Qudeirât Abû Ruqaiyiq,
Qudeirât es Sâni‘,
Ramâdîn Musâmira,
Ramâdîn Shu‘ûr,
Rawâshida,
Shallâlîyîn,
‘Urûr
Zerotalk 14:20, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of Bedouin tribes in 1942 

message: ‘Alâmât Abû Jaqîm,
‘Alâmât Abû Libba,
‘Alâmât Abû Shunnâr,
Balî,
Banî ‘Uqba,
Budeinât,
Dhullâm Abû Juwei‘id,
Dhullâm Abû Rabî‘a,
Dhullâm Abû Qureinât,
Hukûk Abû ‘Abdûn,
Hukûk el Asad,
Hukûk el Bureiqî,
Hukûk el Huzaiyil,
Janâbîb,
Nutûsh,
Qalâzîn Tayâhâ,
Qatâtiwa,
Qudeirât el A‘sam,
Qudeirât Abû Kaf,
Qudeirât Abû Ruqaiyiq,
Qudeirât es Sâni‘,
Ramâdîn Musâmira,
Ramâdîn Shu‘ûr,
Rawâshida,
Shallâlîyîn,
‘Urûr
Zerotalk 14:20, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tayâhâ Tribes