Talk:Relativity priority dispute/Archive 2

message: I thought it might be useful if I outlined briefly what the mainstream histories of science generally make of this priority dispute. I am not referencing any specific sources, nor am I attempting to be definitive, but to give a general overview of the impressions that I, as someone who has read a not-insubstantial amount of academic literature about Einstein. It may be useful as well to people coming to these question for the first time from the RFC/RFA. My impressions might be off, but perhaps they can serve as a general framework for further discussion.
*Einstein and Poincaré and Relativity: Poincaré has been neglected in much of the popular Einstein literature but he has been discussed in detail in the academic literature. The most definitive and recent book on Einstein and Poincaré's work to come out (Galison's Einstein's Clocks, Poincaré's Maps) discusses in detail the overlaps and differences between the two. Everybody knows that Poincaré's work on simultaneity was almost undoubtedly an inspiration for Einstein, however pains are taken to emphasize that Einstein and Poincaré had entirely different interpretations of what the ultimate consequences were. Nobody to my knowledge frames it as a straight priority dispute; they were both working on similar problems and came up with some similar concepts and formulations, but Poincaré had an entirely different program than Einstein and never embraced the latter's SR at all. The literature uses their work as a way to contrast between "classical" and Relativistic physics, and also to show how practical considerations of time-synchronization were present in both of their individual lives (Poincaré in his government work, Einstein in his work at the patent agency). The only major contingent that frames it as a priority dispute as of recent seems to be some nationalist groups in France, but they are not taken seriously at all by historians of physics. This should probably not be mentioned much in the main Einstein article (Poincaré should be noted as an important figure in physics at the time), but probably should be discussed a bit in the Poincaré article. 
*Einstein and Hilbert and GR: This is sometimes discussed as a priority dispute over the field equations, primarily because the scientists in question framed it that way for a time. However the dispute is usually regulated to specifically the priority of the field equations, not the priority of GR as a whole. The correspondence between the two is usually discussed as part competition, part collaboration. This should probably be mentioned briefly in the Einstein article, with a little bit more discussion in the Hilbert and GR articles.
::Fastfission, it is sometimes difficult to determine what the mainstream approach says. In the case of the field equations, it might still be the opinion that Hilbert and Einstein worked independently, and that Hilbert obtained his result somewhat earlier. For instance, according to Winterberg this is the view presented by Stephen Hawking in the millennium issue of time magazine. For me, however the assertion that Hilbert and Einstein worked independently is untenable because of Einstein's November 18 letter to Hilbert and his November 25 letter to Zangger, and the motivation of Corry/Renn/Stachel for writing their famous (infamous?) paper was to defuse the suspicions of PLAGIARISM against Einstein which might be caused by this fact. See their article's text, where they discuss this, as opposed to the title, which only mentions the priority issue (which, in this form, indeed never existed). --De kludde 11:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well summarized. All the works I've read on the topic (either translations into Italian of one or two English works or works written by "mainstream" Italian scholars in philosophy of physics) concord exactly with these views about the so-called "disputes". In fact, I never knew there were any disputes until reading the Hilbert page and then this page. All of these works emphasize that, to put it simply, Einstein's rejection of the ether was essential to the whole project. Lorentz's intepretation of Michelson-Morley was simply wrong. Einstein developed special relativity as an alternative: it's not the molecules and atoms inside the matter that contract or dilate, it is spacetime itself which deforms. This idea was rejected by almost everyone, including Mach. Lacatosias 08:17, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A little unfair to Lorentz perhaps. Lorentz (and Heaviside) had shown in the 1880s that a static system of electric charges held together in an equilibrium configuration by static electric froces, would contract to a new equilbrium position if the whole arrangment was set in motion wrt the aether - a physical prediction of Maxwell's equations. Lorentz then spent many years trying to prove it for dynamic systems (charges that were moving, orbiting electrons for example). Larmor (1897) and later Lorentz predicted that these "atomic" clocks would run slow, the new dynamic equilbrium configuration was one in which the orbital period was longer. But, yes it seems different from what Einstein is saying - they were making physical predictions from Maxwell's equations. E4mmacro 01:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't it that Lorentz's view has the virtue of being (to some degree) physically comprehensible, whereas Einstein's invariant speed of light postulate is physically unintelligible? Zorba 194.44.154.6 20:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Lorentz's view depends on the existence of the ether (shall we go back to phlogiston and other non-existent entities as well). But, to be honest, what I find unintelligible is the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, specifically the absurd but widely accepted notion of complementarity. Sounds like post-modernist rejection of the physical world to me. But that's neither here nor there.--Lacatosias 09:21, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is the ether hypothesis inherently inferior to Einstein's postulate of SoL invariance? The former has the virtue of being physically based and gives length contraction an objective, absolute property that is amenable to human understanding. Otoh, Einstein's SoL postulate is inherently unintelligible and in his version of SR length contraction is an apparent phenomenon only. I don't think the comparison to phlogiston is fair because the modern view, that is, Einstein's SR, does not offer anything intelligible simply because the result can be deduced from two principles. I tend to agree that the complementarity is also unintelligible. I still haven't figured out what it really is. Zorba 194.44.154.17 12:57, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Put very simply and quickly: entia non sunt multiplicandum praeter necessitum (also known as Il razoio di Uncle Bill). Of course, speed of light invariance is a postulate and may someday be proved wrong. But it has held up pretty well so far. Ether is a mysterious and useless ontological abstraction. It violates all the principles of Quinian naturalism. Of course, if you disagree with even Quinian naturalism, I don't know what to tell you!! (; --Lacatosias 17:06, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I have more time to formulate a full response now. In the first place, the SOL invariance postulate is a necessary logical consequence of the rejection of the absolutness of simultaneity. Without it, there is no special relativity theory and hecne no such phenonenon as the relativity of simultaneity. You are not rejecting the ROS, are you? The reason is simple algebra: In Newton's space-time, a ray of light emitted in A and reflected in B travels two different distances  d_1  and  d_2  in the two different inertial systems K1 and K2, in relative motion with the velocity V:  d_1 \ne d_2 = d1 - Vt  Since the two observers, in  the absolute Newtonian system, agree on the amount of time that has passed from a to b, they must be in disagreement on the speed of light in the two reference systems. If you divide the above formula by  t=t_b- t_a  the result is  c_1 \ne c_2 = c_1 -V  with c1 and c1 being the SOL in K1 and K2 respectively. The principle of SOL invariance requires that c1 and c2 are equal in all inertial systems. Since there can't be agreement on the distance that the light has traveled, it's necessary to change the time that has passed as it is calculated by the different observers. This is the principle of realtivity of simultaneity.  You also asserted that the strange effects of contaction of space and time dilation were only apparent in Einstein's theory.This is a misinterpretation. Actually, since there is no privileged system of reference in special relativity, the question of how long the ruler is or how much time has passed on the clock presupposses an absolute system of reference in which to pass universal judgment. The length of the ruler or the time that has passed on the clock is dependent in the system of referecne of the observer. Inside that system of reference, the time that passes is real and not conventional. You have confused the relativity of simultaneity between systems with the conventionality of simultaneity within the same system. --Lacatosias 15:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You must be an enemy of the Everett interpretation of quantum mechanics, then. --De kludde 09:01, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I think you miss my point. Postulates can be more or less intelligible from a physical pov. The Principle of Relativity is an example of an intelligible one (based on symmetry), whereas the invariant SoL postulate is an example of an UN-intelligible one. So the choice between Lorentzian and Einsteinian relativity seem to boil down to which poison, or confusion, one finds it easier to live with. Why does the ether violate "all the principles of Quinian naturalism"? Maxwell and Lorentz regarded the ether as a reasonable hypothesis, and so did Einstein. See his Leiden lecture of 1920. Zorba 193.108.45.252 15:34, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It violates Quinian naturalism because it is not needed in our most successful and useful scientific hypotheses (the ones which the majority of scientists apparently prefer to actually use in their explanations and predictions of phenomena). If it is not needed, in the view of Quine, it simply is not. It may have been a reasonable hypothesis, but it is not an absolutely indispensable hypothesis. Therefore, it is an unnecessary violation of Ockham's razor to continue to invoke it. I understand your point about unintelligibility perfectly. There have been many unreasonable, or unintelligible postulates throughout the history of science: absolute space and time, for example, or atomism. Many of them have resulted in extraordinarily fruitful and fertile research and investigation of nature. I think we are getting a bit off topic here, though.--Lacatosias 18:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The pov you espouse is symptomatic of an unhealthy trend in modern physics -- it has  given up trying to explain anything. If one has a set of postulates that fit the data, no matter how bizarre or anti-intuitive, one is content that the job is done. Btw, you need a spell checker. I assume your native tongue is not English. Zorba 193.108.45.233 20:09, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, one is content until a new research program, to use a Lakatosian term, has come along and successfuly displaced the previously predominant model of explanation and prediction. The ultimate goal is indeed to try to explain reality as closely as possible,however. For example, there is a fundamental incompatibility between GR and QM. Some scientists (call them the anti-realists) accept and tolerate this , suggesting that it doesn't really matter as long we achieve useful practical results. I don't agree with this. I am convinced that there will eventually be some sort of grand unified theory (string theory is the closest things we have now, but it is almost impossible to verify or falsify its predictions) that will replace both of these theoretical and mathematical approximations with more accurate but still inadequate theoretical and mathematical approximations. In the meantime, though, they seem to be the best we have.  As to spelling, my English is impeccable (I was born and raised in the US) but I don't know how to type and I don't like using spell-checkers when writing comments because it takes too much time. I am much more careful when I actually write or edit articles, on the the hand. --Lacatosias 08:35, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Inconsistently with the Ockham's razor argument, part of "mainstream" has now adopted some kind of physical, absolute Spacetime - which is incompatible with the argument with which the ether was removed. But indeed, most physicists don't even ask the question about physical reality... Harald88 23:11, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The mainstream approach

message: Olivier Darrigol (2004): "The Mystery of the Einstein-Poincaré Connection". Isis: Vol.95, Iss. 4; pg. 614, 14 pgs 
What does "Iss. 4" mean? green 82.207.4.17 20:38, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Issue 4, I think. --Alvestrand 21:33, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Correct Reference?

message: Someone left this comment: I don't think the the White National wiki is noteworthy enough to be a reliable source (even of that particular POV)
Are you pulling my leg or what?? Almost everyone I talk to at over here in soutern Italy, at least, is constantly mentioning the WNW. Every time I open up a book or magazine (specialized, non-specialized, science, philopshy, mathemtics, everything), I canìt avoid running into references to the WNW!! This is big-time stuff, kids. It' almost up there with Carlo Bianco (google) and the neo-monarchic movement to abolish the Risrogimento.--Lacatosias 19:20, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lacatosias, I would like to point out that the WN Wiki article is GNU FDL, as the normal Wikipedia, and that some contributors (including some defending to conventional view) found it useful and have taken material from it. Fairness and honesty would require linking that article. The only argument against it might be that their math is sometimes (or often) broken, so that things don't display well. This could be fixed by copying the material to my user page, but these pages are not normally linked to an article. --De kludde 11:20, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, no, actually I wasn't the one who pulled the reference nor did I even support pulling it in this case. I was just being ironic at the expense of the WNW. People who think they are superior by virtue of race (I don't know for certain if you belong in this class BTW), should be a little more thick-skinned, one would think.--Lacatosias 17:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  comment