Talk:Southwestern Brittonic languages

message: I thought we VfDed this fiction. Evertype 16:22, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
:The consensus was that the article on Old Devonian should have been merged into one on Southwestern Brythonic, so I wrote a stub which was desigend to make a tentative first stab at doing just that.Nick xylas 23:04, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is at least supposed to be about the proto-language. The real fiction is at Devonian language The real fiction was at Devonian language, but I've merged that into Cornish language and left a redirect in its place. --Angr/ 16:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I know you redirected the Devonian Language article, but it's back now. Looks like another VfD war is inevitable. Sigh.Nick xylas 17:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Update - I tagged the Devonian Language article for speedy deletion, but admin redirected it here instead Nick xylas 20:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: The real fiction was at Westcountry Brythonic, which deserves linking here so the discussion (pleasant as it wasn't) won't be lost.. Evertype 10:09, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
===A Critical Review of the Deunansek Lord's Prayer===
Deunansek (sic) purports to be a scholarly reconstruction of the Brythonic language of Dumnonia (Devon and surrounding areas) as it was around 700 c.e. before it gave rise to Cornish and Breton as separate languages. 
See: Old Devonian
The following is an analysis of the only continuous text (more than a single sentence) that I have seen in this language. 
First the text itself :
(1) HAGON TAT EN NEFOU, (2) SANKTEDHIT BEDHET DHE HANU, (3) DEFU DHE RUANTELETH,
(4) DHE FODH BEDHET (5) EN DOAR FEL EN NEF,(6) ROIT DHEN HEDHIU HAGON BARA PEB
DEDH, (7) HAK DHEN HAGON KAMUEDH, (8) FEL DHEN RE-NA (9) HAGON KAMUOL,
(10) HAK NA EN DENTATION, (11) MAT DELIURIT NI DHERAK DRUK. 
I compared the above text with several versions of the Lord's Prayer
in Welsh, Cornish and Breton, and found that the best match was with
the Middle Breton text in Lewis' _Llawlyfr_. Large parts are
identical with just some MB oddities changed. <fu, u> for /v/ is
written <f>; <z> from Brit. /D/ or /T/ becomes <dh> or , not
always correctly; and all <c>'s whether for /k/ or /g/ come out as <k>
even before back vowels, unlike anything in MC, MB, OW or MW.
Where there are bits of Breton vocabulary that seem alien to
Welsh/Cornish, then bits of Unified (I think) Cornish have been
inserted, or in some cases the words are just left out(!) as if the
text was never finished. A few forms seem to have been inspired by Welsh.
Here's the Middle Breton line by line, with additions in boldface, deletions marked
[thus] and differences italicised. Notes follow each line.
----------
1. hagon tat [pe heny so] en nef[u]ou,
<hagon> is a hybred of B _hon_ with C _agan_. In fact W _ein_ shows
that the _ag_ was a C innovation, perhaps needed to beef up the word
for "our" from just _*a_ to the more distinctive _aga_, with the other
plural possessives following suit. The _ag_ is probably the same word
as _(h)ag_ "and, with". The SWB word for "our" would I guess have been
/on/.
The words <pe heny so> "the one who is" are ignored. A UC version has
_us_ "that is" here. The text as given thus reads just "Our father in
heaven".
*Comment Rereading Biddulph's book, he suggests (later in his book) that "Our father who art in Heaven" should be " Hagon Tat so in Nefiou".  Here he refers to the special present tense relative form for the verb 'to be'. Dewnans 11:56, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Why is this article here?

message: Deunansek (sic) purports to be a scholarly reconstruction of the Brythonic language of Dumnonia (Devon and surrounding areas) as it was around 700 c.e. before it gave rise to Cornish and Breton as separate languages. 
See: Old Devonian
The following is an analysis of the only continuous text (more than a single sentence) that I have seen in this language. 
First the text itself :
(1) HAGON TAT EN NEFOU, (2) SANKTEDHIT BEDHET DHE HANU, (3) DEFU DHE RUANTELETH,
(4) DHE FODH BEDHET (5) EN DOAR FEL EN NEF,(6) ROIT DHEN HEDHIU HAGON BARA PEB
DEDH, (7) HAK DHEN HAGON KAMUEDH, (8) FEL DHEN RE-NA (9) HAGON KAMUOL,
(10) HAK NA EN DENTATION, (11) MAT DELIURIT NI DHERAK DRUK. 
I compared the above text with several versions of the Lord's Prayer
in Welsh, Cornish and Breton, and found that the best match was with
the Middle Breton text in Lewis' _Llawlyfr_. Large parts are
identical with just some MB oddities changed. <fu, u> for /v/ is
written <f>; <z> from Brit. /D/ or /T/ becomes <dh> or , not
always correctly; and all <c>'s whether for /k/ or /g/ come out as <k>
even before back vowels, unlike anything in MC, MB, OW or MW.
Where there are bits of Breton vocabulary that seem alien to
Welsh/Cornish, then bits of Unified (I think) Cornish have been
inserted, or in some cases the words are just left out(!) as if the
text was never finished. A few forms seem to have been inspired by Welsh.
Here's the Middle Breton line by line, with additions in boldface, deletions marked
[thus] and differences italicised. Notes follow each line.
----------
1. hagon tat [pe heny so] en nef[u]ou,
<hagon> is a hybred of B _hon_ with C _agan_. In fact W _ein_ shows
that the _ag_ was a C innovation, perhaps needed to beef up the word
for "our" from just _*a_ to the more distinctive _aga_, with the other
plural possessives following suit. The _ag_ is probably the same word
as _(h)ag_ "and, with". The SWB word for "our" would I guess have been
/on/.
The words <pe heny so> "the one who is" are ignored. A UC version has
_us_ "that is" here. The text as given thus reads just "Our father in
heaven".
*Comment Rereading Biddulph's book, he suggests (later in his book) that "Our father who art in Heaven" should be " Hagon Tat so in Nefiou".  Here he refers to the special present tense relative form for the verb 'to be'. Dewnans 11:56, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: A Critical Review of the '''Deunansek''' Lord's Prayer

message: The above sample of "Westcountry Brythonic" turns out to be
essentially a Middle Breton text taken from an well known handbook,
partially respelled, and with any distinctly Breton looking words
replaced by their equivalents from a Unified Cornish version. Some
"difficult" words and constructions have simply been dropped, so that
a literal translation is often nonsense. The person publishing this
piece clearly couldn't understand it, nor did
its author have any real idea of historical linguistics or the
development of the Brittonic languages, even though work on the
history of Cornish has made such information more readily available
than it might otherwise have been. To suggest that a text composed of an
amalgam of Middle Breton and Middle Cornish (i.e. nothing earlier than 
1400 c.e.) could in any meaningful way represent the South West Brythonic speech of
some 700 years earlier is ridiculous.
While it might be an interesting exercise to reconstruct SWB prior to
the C/B split, the present attempt is naive, amaturish and careless.
I could probably do better over a wet weekend, with a Welsh-Breton
dictionary and the etymologies in GLKK.
Mongvras 12:55, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: CONCLUSION

message: Thanks to  for highlighting Britonian in the infobox with a citation request. I have gone ahead and removed it from the infobox for these reasons:
* 1. Britonian as a language is entirely unattested. The infobox child language attribute should only be used for attested languages;
* 2. If Britonian existed it must have split from Brittonic in the fifth century or earlier. It is not therefore a child of Southwestern Brittonic at all, even though it may be a child of Brittonic.
* 3. There are no sources. Wikipedia is not for OR, but this whole Britonian language thing (see also talk in Cornish and Breton language talk pages) smacks of OR. The name appears to have been coined for Wikipedia. Searching Google for Britonian Language only finds Wikipedia pages and pages quoting Wikipedia (with some scepticism).
* 4. This page is poorly sourced, but the one source it does have lists the child languages as Cornish and Breton only. We can only go with what the sources say. 
-- Sirfurboy (talk) 19:11, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: ...as one could also expect to find traces of Britonian in modern Galician --Couiros22 (talk) 10:36, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why? There was not prolonged cultural interchange between Galicia and southwestern Britain, or between Galicia and Brittany, in historical times.  Some trade, but not more than between other areas in the region, and not the sort of dynastic channel spanning we see between Cornwall and Brittany. Anyway, I have redirected Britonian to Brittonic languages as it seems to simply be a variant spelling.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:19, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Britonian 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Rescinded by nominator. This should be proposed as group RM of similar titles that have a "language" added onto the end which is not actually serving a disambiguation function. Per WP:CONSISTENT, this page by itself should not be moved away from the current pattern in the category.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:40, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Southwestern Brittonic languages →  – WP:CONCISE, and to be WP:CONSISTENT with Cumbric, Scottish Gaelic, etc. In short, we do not append "language[s]" to language article titles when the name of them is not ambiguous with that of the culture/ethnicity associated with the language.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:13, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 13 March 2021