Talk:National epic

message: Is it really needed for Beowulf to be on the list twice, once for the Anglo-Saxons and then again for England? 
The term 'Anglo-Saxon' is used to refer to the people of England (or the petty kingdoms of England) during the Middle-Ages (usually before the Norman Conquest but not exclusively...it has been used to distinguish the peasants from Normans...for example in adaptations of Robin Hood's 'adventures') and thus the 'Anglo-Saxons' are the English...inhaitants of England.
Then we have 'England - Beowulf' which I take it is to refer to the modern 'England', however if nothing has changed then it is pointless to put Beowulf as England's epic twice. 
Even to say it was written in Old English (Or Englisc), as most epics were written in an older language.
Maybe it's me, but even the Mozilla search can't the word Beowulf in the article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.170.137.158 (talk) 05:55, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beowulf 

message: What is difference between East and West? Is Mali eastern? Then, Russia is located at east of Mali is eastern? If this means Christianity and Islam, where is China, on north? If all Christians are on West, then where is Christian Ethipoia, or Christian-Muslim mixed Lebanon? How can be an American nation Mayas can be regarded as Easterns? Please, abandon the words West and East in this article Burgaz 20:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: West and East

message: Just a question: Is 'Journey to the West' really China's national epic? The four great Chinese vernacular 'novels' were: Journey to the West, Romance of Three Kingdoms, Outlaws of the Marsh, and Dream of Red Mansions. Any particular reason for choosing this one?
:None of these novels are "national" in any modern Chinese sense.  They are best characterized as literary gems on their own merit, any national myth-making being of much later invention (and even then the subject matter of these stories don't really make good national epics, but that's just my opinion).  A-giau 00:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All these "national epics" have been so designated after the fact. It's not what "we" consider, but what nationalist critics in each nation consider "national epics", that is worth mentioning. --Wetman 17:21, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True --Anne97432 15:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The "facts" still need to be documented.  For example, while these Chinese classics are held to be literary masterpieces (and for good reasons), it needs to be established that they are considered national epics by state authorities, establishment intelligentsia, and such.  A-giau 00:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Journey to the West?

message: A lot of the works cited in this section are not really national epics at all, but great novels of various cultures.  Dream of the Red Chamber for example is hardly a National Epic, neither is Don Quixote, which is a picaresque novel and a parody of chivalrous novels.  And what the heck is Gregory of Monmouth doing here?  
A couple of the "Prose Epics" are appropriate, but why do they need a seperate section?  The Mabinogion, may not be considered an epic by some, but that is the sort of argument one would use to excuse the Kalevala, which should certainly be included. 
I suggest that novels should be specifically excluded, as well as prose histories, except those that are either genuinely unrivalled, such as the Popul Vuh (because nothing else survives).
This would still allow epics such as the Aeneid and the Tale of Kieu, but exclude Huckleberry Finn.
--Moheroy 21:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It all depends what you mean by national Epic. It's a bit like the national anthems, some were written on purpose, others so much captured the spirit of the times that they were adopted as national anthems (la Marseillaise, for one). In France we have poets who deliberately set out to write national Epics (Voltaire's Henriade), but they mostly failed in their efforts. However, during the Blitzkrieg Shakespeare's this sceptered isle of Kings suddenly became meaningful again. I think there should be two categories : a self-defined genre national epic  (Camoens), and then texts that people identify to and use to represent the national ethos. Bizarrely, In France we are convinced that American people see Moby Dick as their national epic, but there is no mention of it here. --Anne97432 16:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These are precisely the subtleties that are erased in a simple-minded listing, but which are the very essence of what this article should be getting across in a more nuanced fashion. Give it a try. --Wetman 06:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Geoffrey of Monmouth.  Of course the Historia Regum Britanniae is a prose epic, insofar as there are prose epics.  It is prose.  The structure is epic.  It was consciously modeled on the Aeneid.  The material is epic.  Not only is its material the Matter of Britian, but it is also the primary source of all subsequent poetry based on the Matter of Britain.  Later epic poems, like the Brut of Layamon, were based on it.  I would be quite surprised to learn that any scholars dispute that the Historia is a prose epic.  If anything is a prose epic, this is it. -- Rockliff (talk) 19:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Huckleberry Finn.  Huckleberry Finn, on the other hand, good novel though it may be, is certainly not a national epic.  Its status as Great American Novel has even been disputed.  See: O'Connor, William. "Why Huckleberry Finn Is Not the Great American Novel." College English Vol. 17 No. 1 (Oct. 1955) pp. 6-10.  This article is available on JSTOR, but I do not give the link because not everybody has access to JSTOR. -- Rockliff (talk) 19:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Should Novels and "Prose Epics" even be included?

message: *Russia - 
**History of the House of Romanov
**Kulikovo Pole
I've removed the above because I can't discover what they refer to, or even if they exist.  A history is not an epic, not even a prose epic; the second one may refer to Aleksander Blok's poem "Na kulikovom pole" but that appears to be a minor poem, not considered a "national epic" by the Russians. 68.100.18.183 15:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-existent Epics

message: The previous section brings to my mins a major wikipedia rule: wikipedia:Verifiability: 
:The list must be properly referenced by at least one reputable source which describes a particualr work as epic. 
`'mikkanarxi 03:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup / verifiability 

message: Whilst it is frequently recognised as the best play, if not the best piece of literature, ever penned by a British writer, to say that it's a national epic is somewhat absurd.  Amongst other things, it's set in Denmark and, therefore, doesn't reflect at all on the "essence or spirit" of the British people (which the introduction states is what a national epic is).  Furthermore, whilst it is a phenomenal work, it does not stand head and shoulders above other works by Shakespeare, never mind other works of British literature or in the English language.  Since these are the requirements of a national epic, it surely falls short.  Hence, I have removed it until a source is cited. Bastin 23:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Furthermore to the fact that Beowulf has been (nearly universally) recognised as the English (or Old English) national epic since the 19th century, Beowulf does stand head and shoulders above all other Old English works, in terms of both length and fame, and so does qualify under the second criterion given in the introduction (unlike Hamlet). Bastin 14:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What about Henry V? It was revived during the Blitz with great topical relevance. What about Gaunt's speech in Richard II (This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,/This Earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,/This other Eden, demi-paradise ... This precious stone set in a silver sea') ? Wouldn't you say the historical plays are a kind of national epic ? There's a pb. in this article which quotes the Chanson de Roland as a French national epic just because it's an epic and it's French, but shows no awareness of any self-proclaimed French epic like the Henriad or L'Orléanide, Poème national en vingt-huit chants (The Orleanid, a national epic in 28 cantos), Paris, Ed. Artus Bertrand, 1821..  --Anne97432 16:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hamlet

message: So Tasso and Dante don't get a look-in? Why is Beowulf listed as the English national epic? Whilst it is an epic poem it seems to have very little to do with the English national character and has been obscured and unread for much of its history. I would have expected to see 'Paradise Lost' in this position.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wordplaye (talk • contribs) 15:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Query 

message: This article is ridiculous. People are adding and subtracting based on nothing but opinion. This is not a list of "really cool books from different countries." "National Epic" implies something officially named. Either this article gets some sources, where works are legitimately named National Epics, or I'm nominating this article for deletion on the grounds that it's a completely subjective, unsourced list. Merpin (talk) 19:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, that was too harsh. I actually think this article is really cool. But I'd like to see a source that establishes the national significance at least of the more obscure works. I'll try to find some myself. Merpin (talk) 02:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dreadful 

message: I have listed two poems, The Columbiad (1807) by Joel Barlow and The Song of Hiawatha (1855) by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, as "national epics" of the United States.  I do not do this arbitrarily.  There is, of course, no universally accepted national epic for the United States at this time and likely never will be.  However, it is, I think, more illuminating to the topic of national epics to list these two poems here than it is to list nothing at all.  At the times of their publication, both were received by many critics as national epics.  It is true that both were also harshly criticized by other critics, and some did not even accept them as good poems, let alone as national epics.  However, one can certainly also find scholars who do not accept Beowulf as a national epic for England.  The Columbiad and the Song of Hiawatha came close to being accepted as national epics, much closer than any other poems with similar aspirations (and there were surprisingly many in the 19th century, which is itself an interesting topic), and as such, I think, it is historically informative to mention them on this list, especially since many of the other items on this list really have no more formal sanction they they do.  Rockliff (talk) 18:05, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  National Epic of the United States 

message: Have any films or television productions reached the status of "national epic", in the sense of "a defining work of fiction that captures and influences the culture of a nation, to the point where it nearly becomes synonymous with the nation itself"? I'm reluctant to use this as an example, but Triumph of the Will would have been one for Nazi Germany. One might be able to make a case for the film versions of Gone With The Wind and To Kill a Mockingbird. And you might laugh at this one, but I really think "The Simpsons" comes as close to a national epic for the United States as anything else ever has. (Yes, it's comedy and satire, but so is Don Quixote!)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.103.107 (talk) 07:04, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Films and television? 

message: I've added Paradise Lost to the list of English epics, at the top. This is because it is the canonical English epic. I would suggest removing the other two as they don't have this status, and the Henriad is a collection of linked but separate plays, not an epic. 89.243.242.241 (talk) 17:32, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: The English epic

message: This article reminds me of the song from the Swiss national epic Sound of Music. -- GreenC 04:18, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  These are a few of my favorite things 

message: This could be seen as the epic of which Hong Kong is founded upon, from an immigration or "territorial spirit" kind of way.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sung_Wong_Toi (base artcle)
* https://www.facebook.com/hkresurgence/posts/1985379135009030:0 (connections)
* https://hk.news.appledaily.com/local/daily/article/20140823/18841858 (news)
* http://www.civicparty.hk/?q=node/5864 (political reference)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.40.211.133 (talk) 04:30, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hong Kong's Epic 

message: Based on the comments on this talk page and the lack of sources, I've removed the list of epics section from this page - there are already a few examples listed in the body of the article and the list was redundant with other articles that list epic poems. In the interested of discouraging activist edits that were poorly sourced I've removed the entire section. Wikipedia:Be_bold  carchasm (talk) 08:09, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed Examples