Talk:Manx language

message: I suggest removing the following sentence:
This sentence is not backed up and is blatantly false. Obviously written by someone who does not understand the Manx spelling system. In fact there are very few inconsistencies. The majority of studies on the Manx language have concentrated on the dialect of the southern part of the island. But the orthography was designed in such a way as to include pronounciations from the north of the island. One of the main arguments is the spelling "-aan", vs. "-ane". But this exists for a good reason. "-aan" is pronounced like Irish "án" in both dialects, whereas when we see "-ane" it is pronounced "én" in the south and "án" in the North. Another "inconsistency" is the doubling of consonants. This is not inconsistent with pronounciation. A doubling of a consonant indicates a softening. E.g. bog ("soft") is pronounced /bɘg/ but the verb boggaghey is pronounced /ˈbɘɣɘxɘ/. Likewise boodeeys is pronounced /buːdiːɘs/ but the plural form boodeeyssyn is pronounced /buːdiːɘzɘn/. Please point out any inconsistencies to me and I will gladly show where they are not inconsistent with pronounciation. All languages have some spellings that are not consistent, Manx is no different, but where there are some they are few and far between.
This second sentence should be moved to the relevant section on orthography, as it is a criticism of it and not necessary for background material:
Personally I don't agree with it (Manx orthography is phonetic and it never had a Gaelic orthography to preserve - it'd be like suggesting French should have preserved the Cyrillic orthography to show its similarities with Moldovan Romanian), but it is a criticism by an eminent scholar and so does deserve a place in the article. Just not in the background section. A simple line or two to describe the orthography should suffice in the Background section. --MacTire02 (talk) 16:34, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a bit disingenuous to say Manx never had a Gaelic orthography to preserve; it's descended from a language that had a Latin-alphabet written tradition dating back to the 8th century, not to mention Ogham. It's more like Romanian, which was written with the Cyrillic alphabet until the mid-19th century, despite being descended from a language with a Latin-alphabet written tradition. +Angr 17:05, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: But then again, the vikings invaded Man round about the same time as the Irish monks started writing, and unlike the Western Isles of Scotland, Man was never reincorporated into a Gaelic administration -- it was part of Scotland for a brief while, but the language of court by then was early Scots.  AFAIK, there is no evidence of Manx literature predating the Book of Common Prayer, so it cannot be said with any certainty that Manx ever had an orthography derived from the Irish monks' one. Prof Wrong (talk) 17:18, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

text: It's not disingenuous. The language we know as Manx never had a Gaelic orthography. The Gaelic orthography only exists in Scotland and Ireland. Never in the Isle of Man. Manx is only spoken in the Isle of Man and did not have any written tradition until the 17th century. From the moment a Gaelic language arrived on the island it was not written down until the 17th century. Therefore it did not have a Gaelic orthography. You cannot say that the separate but related language (through descent) of Irish used one orthography, therefore Manx lost that orthography. --MacTire02 (talk) 17:28, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The spelling of the Manx tongue had remained unsettled till 1772, when the Manx Bible was first printed. That translation has been since recognised as the standard of orthography. "The Celtic language," observes the writer of an anonymous manuscript among Dr. Kelly's papers, "everywhere losing ground, had degenerated in Man in a ratio proportionate to its narrow territory, and the increased intercourse of its inhabitants with Britain. In the Manx dialect many terms were lost, many Anglicisms adopted, many corruptions introduced. The translators had now an opportunity to apply the remedy. By due attention to the orthography and structure of the language, the connexion between roots and compounds might have been preserved, and its original energy and purity restored. But the translators did not consult the structure of the language. By adjusting the orthography to pronunciation, roots are wholly lost. . . . It must, however, be allowed, agreeably to the argument of a learned friend of mine, who was one of the committee of correction and publication, that had not the words been written as they are pronounced, the body of the people must have continued uninstructed. The Irish orthography would have presented insurmountable difficulties; it would have been to the multitude an unknown tongue." Kelly's Manx Grammar - Editor's Introduction AJRG (talk) 23:28, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background 

message: There is an article on "Manx literature", which seems to be a slightly expanded version of the final paragraphs of the "History" section of the "Manx language" article.
The cross-reference to that article is buried in that history section, about 3/4ths of the way through an extremely detailed philological article.
I think it makes more sense to put such an xref either at the beginning (something like "Manx literature dates back to at least the 16th century" would serve) or in the "See also" at the end, as these are the obvious places someone would look for such.
Joe Bernstein
joe@sfbooks.com
97.113.99.168 (talk) 23:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cross-reference to "Manx literature" 

message: Are there any Manx contributions to English, such as a loanword or some such?  What about in the English spoken on the island?  What about in other area languages, such as Irish, are there any Manx words there?Chrisrus (talk) 20:25, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea for a new section. I'm not entirely sure about Manx contribs to English, but there would be some Manx contribs to Manx-English. Regarding the other Gaelic languages - there are NO Manx contributions to be found in Scots or Irish Gaelic. However there are Irish and Scots contributions to be found in Manx such as anaase meaning "interest" (v'eh feer anaasoil, "that was very interesting"). This word is a direct borrowing from Scots Gaelic dating from the mid 20th century. There is an already existing word "sym" (similar to Irish "suim"), but this can also mean the interest you pay on an account as well as a "sum" of money. For the sake of clarity many have adopted the word anaase to distinguish from sym. There are other examples, but not off the top of my head. --MacTire02 (talk) 20:42, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  contributions to English 

message: I just created Wikipedia:IPA_for_Manx_Gaelic and would welcome input/amendments. I was using Brodick, Manx not being my natural scene, but I felt the page was needed so we can use the {{IPA-gv| formatting to lead people to a more appropriate page than just the general IPA page. 
Looking at the main page though, might it not make sense to split the phonology off onto a Manx phonology page? It seems to be getting fairly large. Gura mie ayv! Akerbeltz (talk) 00:20, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: A related issue: there is a list of Manx phrases. I recommend that pronunciation be given, in IPA. Another thing: I recommend that, to make article titles more concise, said article, Wikipedia:IPA for Manx Gaelic, be retitled "Wikipedia:IPA for Manx" (the "Gaelic" part is obviously redundant).--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 13:33, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The last point is moot. Turns out it is now titled Help:IPA/Manx.--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 13:34, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA for Manx 

message: The following paragraph appears in the article:
 Some religious terms originating in Latin, Greek and Hebrew e.g. casherick (holy), from the Latin consecrātus; mooinjer (people)
 from the Latin monasterium (originally a monastery; agglish (church) from the Greek ἐκκλησία (ekklesia, literally meaning
 assembly) and abb (abbot) from the Hebrew "אבא" (abba, meaning "father"). Many English loanwords also have a classical origin,
 e.g. çhellveeish and çhellvane meaning television and telephone respectively.
I believe this to be slightly misleading. For a start there are no references provided. Secondly, each of these words have simply evolved from earlier Irish forms. Perhaps this should be acknowledged? These words can still be seen in their modern Irish counterparts as follows:
:casherick1, v. Coisric.
:casherick2, a. Coisricthe.
:mooinjer, f. Muintir f.
:agglish, f. Eaglais f.
:abb, m. Ab m.
I understand that these words do have a classical origin, but the way it is phrased it would appear that these words were borrowed directly into Manx, which is not the case. --MacTire02 (talk) 09:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I totally agree. Especially the Hebrew link is nonsense, at least in a direct route. For Manx, unless someone can provide a ref for a direct borrowing it goes Some Language > Old(er) Irish > Manx Akerbeltz (talk) 11:54, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Loanwords 

message: I have updated the census figures of Manx speakers, as per the 2011 census - showing an increase of 134 people. This is also now reflected in the history section of the page. Dornálaíocht (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 19:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Census Results 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Manx language's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "gov.im":
From Isle of Man: Geography - Isle of Man Public Services
From Cronk ny Arrey Laa: http://www.gov.im/mnh/heritage/countryside/earycushlin.xml
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 22:22, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Manx language]] 

message: I nearly reverted the change of hen-oast to ben-oast, because the quoted source did indeed say "hen-oast".  Then I figured it was probably an OCR error and looked up the Bible to check, and sure enough, it's "ben-oast" there too.
However, unless someone has a print version of the Jenner book to verify, we're still technically in the wrong by "correcting" something cited from an outside source.  So can anyone verify this? Prof Wrong (talk) 15:01, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hen-oast vs. Ben-oast 

message: As of 13/3/2013 :Category:Manx loanwords contained the articles listed below.  The category is being deleted per Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_February_10#Category:Welsh_loanwords.
* Hop-tu-Naa
* Skeet
* Tynwald
DexDor (talk) 21:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Former contents of loanwords category 

message: Why not just say "In recent years"?
"However" is probably the most useless, pointless, meaningless and overused word in the English language.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.193.249 (talk) 19:45, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It does however sound nice, in that it smooths the flow of the text and the transition from one statement to the next. Dusty|💬|You can help! 00:47, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  However in recent years 

message: A new section (text boxes) has been added in to the orthography section regarding the first few lines of The Hobbit in Manx. This piece is not referenced and I can not find any reference to it online, other than backlinks to Wikipedia itself. The transliterated section is even more suspect and should definitely be removed. There is no traditional Gaelic writing system used for the Manx language and this one, in particular, doesn't even look like it was concocted created by a professional linguist. This piece of "transliteration" falls entirely into the realm of WP:OR and should be removed immediately unless it can be shown that it is not original research. I will leave this message here for 24 hours after which I will remove the piece in question. Mac Tíre Cowag 14:48, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orthography 

message: The link to Jamys Jeheiney doesn't work. You can get from the error page to Manx Radio in English, but that's all.213.127.210.95 (talk) 16:56, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: Is the distinction between northern and southern dialects still current, as the article says, or is it merely historical?  ---Ehrenkater (talk) 17:30, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Northern/Southern dialects 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Manx language. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121108113021/http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/treasury/economic/census/census2011reportfinalresized.pdf to http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/treasury/economic/census/census2011reportfinalresized.pdf
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 7 external links on Manx language. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140712054609/http://www.manxradio.com/AudioVault/JamysJeheiney.mp3 to http://www.manxradio.com/AudioVault/JamysJeheiney.mp3
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101128055331/http://manxradio.com/news.aspx?m=70&b1=20&b2=22&b3=24 to http://www.manxradio.com/news.aspx?m=70&b1=20&b2=22&b3=24
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140920121748/http://www.manxradio.com/blog.aspx?blogid=14912 to http://www.manxradio.com/blog.aspx?blogid=14912
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140920121602/http://www.manxradio.com/blog.aspx?blogid=14696 to http://www.manxradio.com/blog.aspx?blogid=14696
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140904133625/http://www.manxradio.com/blog.aspx?blogid=14872 to http://www.manxradio.com/blog.aspx?blogid=14872
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081201160833/http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/treasury/economic/census/manxmap.pdf to http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/treasury/economic/census/manxmap.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050312132027/http://www.gaelg.iofm.net/EMENU.html to http://www.gaelg.iofm.net/EMENU.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:00, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: On the 2nd of February, 2022, the Manx Government published the first report from its 2021 Census - the total figure for knowledge of the Manx language (speaking, reading and writing inclusive) now stands at 2,223: https://www.gov.im/media/1375604/2021-01-27-census-report-part-i-final-2.pdf Culloty82 (talk) 16:53, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:   Manx language data in 2021 Census 

message: @user:Wracking. Census data is a highly unreliable source but it is often all we have. At best it is a guideline. In the case of what you have just added. I think you have a misread the data. The census asks for a series of answers about a persons level of ability in Manx - can you speak Manx? Can you read Manx? etc. The same person could answer each question. You have given the totals of all questions answered with a yes, not only for the question asking 'can you speak Manx'. This is another example of why we should use censuses with care. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 07:13, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey there, I didn't add any new information. I just formatted the citations and made the table into a graph. I'm more than willing to help make this more accurate, but I'm not sure how as I haven't really looked at the base data. Maybe adding a footnote or sentence that highlights discrepancies that may be found in counting speakers? Wracking 💬 18:56, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The simple solution is to look at each source (census data) and change the figures in the article accordingly. The figures to use are only the number of people who 'can speak Manx' (whatever that means). That is too time consuming for me but some editors like playing around with numbers. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 22:13, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Census data misused

message: Currently the pronunciation listed in the wikibox is: 
I believe that this should be reduced to:
Since  on its own means “Manx (language)”, y means “the”, so  together mean "the Manx language", there no need to list both the word itself and with the definite article. @Treetoes023 2A01:B340:82:8F97:99C9:2F9E:8DDE:B377 (talk) 14:49, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation in wikibox 

message: We're presently lacking all information on this. What I can glean quickly by searching about: The earliest surviving written material in the Manx language as a distinct form, an Anglican Book of Common Prayer manuscript, was completed by Bishop John Philips from Wales, but never published. It is unclear whether the English- and Welsh-based simplistic (but inconsitent) spelling system imposed on Manx (which obviously happened through the activities of literate mainlanders, not the native population) was devised by Philips or came about earlier, in the 16th century, and was simply used by Philips.
At this point, I'm not entirely sure what the best sources are to use for something about this; my focus has been on other languages, and I haven't really caught up on Gaelg/Gailck scholarship. But I do know that we have a gap here and need to fill it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:11, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orthographic origins