Talk:Princess Irene of the Netherlands

message: :The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it.  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  
The result was Move. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 22:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Princess Irene of Orange-Nassau → Princess Irene of the Netherlands – Princess Irene did not lose her title of Princess of the Netherlands because the 2002 act regulating titles of the royal house was not retroactive. She only lost her membership to the royal house. Had her marriage taken place after 2002 then she would no longer be a princess of the Netherlands. Charles 05:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: *Support As nominator. Charles 05:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: See RM reasoning. Charles 05:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: Shouldn't she be listed under Princess Irene of Orange-Nassau?  She married without the permission of the States-General so she lost her right to the throne, like her nephew Johan-Friso, and he became Prince Johan-Friso of Orange-Nassau.  Just trying to get the titles right.  Prsgoddess187 15:38, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Irene uses the name "Irene van Lippe-Biesterfeld"... I don't know whether or not the Princess is still "of the Netherlands" or even what her actual title or common name is now. Charles 23:06, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: As far as I know, Irene is divorced in about 1980 from Carlos de Bourbon etc. -DePiep 18:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  spouse? 

message: Is the 'Prinses Irene' tulip named after her?81.159.89.226 (talk) 15:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Tulip

message: The part about the marriage controversy seems a bit too long when compared to all the other events that have taken place during her life. ADM (talk) 05:47, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Marriage controversy

message: I removed the title of Duchess of Bourbon-Parma. There was never such a title in existence. The title Duke (Duchess) of Parma was abolished in 1859 and was since then a title in pretense. It's not usual that former monarchical titles like these are used on Wikipedia for pretenders. We do not call the Duke of Castro King of the two Sicilies for example. In that sense we should also do something about Carlos, Duke of Parma. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 21:11, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That is why I removed the entire list. It is unsourced and inaccurate. Per WP:BLP, unsourced and contested information should be removed immediately. On the other hand, Irene did use the title of Duchess of Parma and was referred to as such. The man who uses the title of Duke of Castro is known as such; he does not call himself king (at least not publicly) and is not normally referred to as such. The difference is obvious. Queen Latifah is definitely not a queen, for what that's worth. It is not our job to evaluate whether someone has the right to use the name she or he uses. We report facts, and the fact is that Irene was styled as Duchess of Parma. Not as [Carlist] Queen of Spain, not as Queen Etruria, but as Duchess of Parma.  (talk) 21:27, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Surtsicna for coming here. I don't think that she was ever generally well known as the Duchess of Parma. Her husband and her son (his successor in pretense) were very well known as Princes of Bourbon-Parma. Since 1998 they are known in Dutch nobility as Princes de Bourbon de Parme. The Ducal title was the title of a head of state. A state that stopped existing in 1859. There is no diplomatic or legal base for them or their spouses to be called Dukes or Duchesses of Parma (let alone of Bourbon-Parma, there has never been such a ting as a Duke or Duchess of Bourbon-Parma). Besides, what they call themselves is very good for the name of an article, when they are known by that name, but the section "titles and styles" deals with the official form of address for such a person.  Not with titles of pretense. She is after all a Princess of the Netherlands. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 21:42, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: In other words, I have no qualms about calling her Duchess of Parma in any other section of the article, just not in a section that relates to the formal form of address of the Princess. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 21:44, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Surtsicna, I may very well have misunderstood your argument. Thanks for removing the section with the disputed title. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 22:30, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duchess of Parma 

message: :Gerard von Hebel has previously (see section above) and now again edited this and other articles in opposition to the attribution of non-Dutch titles to Irene, even when attributed to her by  reliable sources. Yet that view continues to evoke as much dissent as support, therefore the article can't simply reflect that view or Gerard von Hebel's interpretation of the Dutch government's view in the matter. During the period when Irene was the wife of Carlos-Hugo she did not live in the The Netherlands -- indeed it was government policy to discourage her presence there -- so there is no compelling reason why Wikipedia should treat Dutch law as controlling her titulature when that nation had disassociated itself from her and she lived abroad actively campaigning in support of her husband's cause as a pretender. During that period her husband claimed to be the rightful Spanish heir ("Prince of Asturias") and later rightful king, yet neither this article nor any reputable source (outside his own Carlist Party) accorded him those titles, so this isn't about recognizing his non-legal title of pretence to the throne he claimed. However, the Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, an expert and reliable source on use of hereditary titulature, along with numerous other sources, did attribute to Carlos Hugo the title "Duke of Parma", as it did to his non-reigning ancestors. But that reflects neither original research nor monarchist sentiment, but prevalent international usage. You are correct that "Duke of Parma" was a sovereign title until 1859 and reliable sources do not usually attribute sovereign titles to pretenders. However there are two long accepted exceptions to that rule: 1. such titles as emperor, king, queen mother, crown prince, dauphin, grand duke (Grossherzog), etc. are no longer accorded to members of a dethroned dynasty once the monarchy is abolished, except that (outside that country) those who held those substantive titles at the time of deposition continue to be accorded that rank for their lifetimes unless they adopt another style,  and 2. the titles of "duke" and "prince" (Fürst) may continue in use for the heirs in exile of the abolished monarchy. The first custom reflects historical usage dating back to the medieval era (e.g., Emperor Charles V, Queen Christina of Sweden, Emperor Napoleon I etc. and, in literature, King Lear) and is still largely adhered to. The second exception also dates back to deposed rulers of the princedoms erected in the Near East during the Crusades (John, Prince of Antioch, James, Prince of Achaea, Walter, Duke of Athens and, in literature, the same "Duke Walter" in the Decameron) because "duke" and "prince" have never been exclusively associated with sovereignty as have the other titles. So in modern times when a duke or prince's realm is terminated that does not, ipso facto, terminate the title: Duke of Parma is, legally, a papal title, and the Popes continue to be a lawful fount of honour. Thus the successors to the last reigning Duke of Parma have consistently been attributed that title by such international authoritative sources as Justus Perthes' Almanach de Gotha, Burke's Peerage and others. To further distance itself from Carlos Hugo as an active pretender, the Dutch court avoided attributing to him and his wife their traditional Italian titles, but that is an anomalous policy of The Netherlands which articles may make note of but which Wikipedia is not bound to enforce in deference to NPOV. FactStraight (talk) 22:42, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duchess of Parma again 

message: See also List of honours of the Dutch Royal Family by country
;Titles
*5 August 1939 - 29 April 1964:  Her Royal Highness Princess Irene of The Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld
*29 April 1964 - 7 May 1977: Her Royal Highness Princess Irene of Bourbon-Parma, Princess of The Netherlands,Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, Fürstliche Häuser XII. "Haus Bourbon". C.A. Starke Verlag, 1984, pp. 13-15. Princess of Orange-Nassau, Princess of Lippe-BiesterfeldGenealogisches Handbuch des Adels, Fürstliche Häuser XIII. "Niederlande". C.A. Starke Verlag, 1987, pp. 85-86. 
*7 May 1977 - 7 January 1981 : Her Royal Highness Princess Irene, Duchess of Parma, Princess of The Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld
*7 January 1981-present: Her Royal Highness Princess Irene of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Princess of Lippe-BiesterfeldPrincess Irene - website of the Dutch Royal Househttp://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0013729/geldigheidsdatum_30-05-2015| Wet lidmaatschap Koninklijk Huis art. 10: "Those who carry titles and names enforced by the Royal orders of 26 october 1937 (Stb. 1937, no. 5) en 2 januari 1967 (Stb. 1967, no. 1)) retain these".
The Princess used the following names since her divorce:
*Princess Irene of Lippe-Biesterfeld
*Mrs (Mevrouw) van Lippe-BiesterfeldGenealogisches Handbuch des Adels, Fürstliche Häuser XV. "Niederlande". C.A. Starke Verlag, 1997, p. 75..
Gerard von Hebel (talk) 21:16, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the above is an excellent way of reflecting the information provided by the sources cited. Thanks for putting so much thought and effort into the clarification: Dutch royal succession rights and titulature are perilously complex and inconsistent, but this brings as much order to Irene's situation as one could hope for. I recommend upload to the appropriate section of the article. FactStraight (talk) 12:28, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! Done! Gerard von Hebel (talk) 15:10, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Titles, styles, and honours

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message: For the second in line to the throne to not merely convert to Roman Catholicism but also to associate with an alleged Franco sympathizer, caused shock and consternation...
:How could he be an 'alleged Franco sympathizer' when he was a communist and a supporter of the Carlist branch of the monarchy that Franco had passed over? Valetude (talk) 18:07, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Franco sympathizer? 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion