Talk:Death growl/Archive 1

message: Need a mention. Lindbergs work on the recent Nightrage albums is exceptional. Brett Hoffman on Malevelent Creations The Ten Commandments is worthy of inclusion on that one disc alone. Hoffman is more of the insane growler who uses shrieks as well but this album dates back to 1991. Still a stellar death grunt which i would prefer to see as growl. Blunt 07:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Thomas Lindberg and Brett Hoffman

message: Where the hell is Peter Tägtgren from Hipocrisy/Bloodbath??  Quite possibly the best vocalist in death metal... probably the only vocalist in all of death metal that I would hold above Âkerfeldt himself... amazing range and the sickest growl of them all... yet nowhere on the list.  It's a travesty I tell you...  No respect at all.
: This is not a list of your favourite DM vocalists, but a list of the MOST IMPORTANT Dm vocalists. Which means those who helped invent it, basically. Ley Shade 02:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So add them. My point still stands however. Ley Shade 03:20, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Peter Tägtgren

message: I made some copy edition to the article - which is progressively becoming better, BTW - but the fourth paragraph is enormously POV. Expressions such as "sickness" and "sonic assault" are not encyclopedic. So I have moved it to here so that this can be worked out, and once it is, we can migrate it back to the article. I made a half-hearted attempt at fixing it, but gave up, since I really don't know of a way to fix it without starting another edit/POV war. 
: Yeah, good point. Altho "sickness" is a NPOV wrt Autopsy as sickness is the main theme of Autopsy in lyrics and artwork and they try to put that into their music and vocals as well. All in all the first phrase seems to be reasonable. The rest needs some work.Spearhead 21:19, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I did some text flow improvements, but since I know nothing about Napalm Death, I pretty much guessed the "whilst also generally bringing more speed to the vocalisation of the lyrics" part, based on what you originally wrote; if it's worng information, just remove it. Also, I spent about ten minutes trying to find a way of changing the word "sickness", but I'm stumped. I guess I'll have to live with it, but it still does not sound very encyclopedic to me, in this context. --Sn0wflake 23:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Spearhead's revision

message: Some one from the funeral doom metal genre should be on the list as that has turned out to become a rather different genre. I'm considering the guy from Thergothon, Disembowelment or maybe the guy from Skepticism.
Spearhead 21:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: But has these "Funeral Doom" bands been influential to other artists?This article is definitely beginning to lose its neutrality. Danteferno 15:09, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Disembowelment and Thergothon have influenced many other (funeral) doom metal bands. Spearhead 22:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  And Paradise Lost have influenced many Doom/Death metal bands (and I imagine a few Funeral Doom bands) but they shouldn't be on the list? Danteferno 15:56, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I fear that PL have more influence gothic metal bands than doom metal bands. Spearhead 20:13, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  So what? Many Gothic Metal bands (Crematory, Trail of Tears, Sins of Thy Beloved) have used death grunt vocals. You're up in arms about Nick Holmes being on the list because of his vocal change, but Lee Dorian's transformation from "death growler" to stoner rocker is petty? Give me a break. Danteferno 17:35, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Aren't White and Stainthorpe already representing "the triad" well enough? Holmes is probably the less notable out of them, despite being very good. Well, I'm just giving my opinion, as I don't care either way. --Sn0wflake 00:45, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  All 3 bands have been equally influential to  the Doom/death genre, but Paradise Lost came first (1988). What I don't understand is why they have been left out. Anathema haven't used death grunts for a longer period, Stainthrope uses a mixture of clean vocals and death grunts. Mikael Akerfeldt (on the list) also crosses over from death grunts to clean vocals. So Spearhead's reasoning doesn't seem to make sense. (Don't get me wrong, I am not against any of these artists being on the list.)  Danteferno 00:59, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Funeral doom

message: I have rewritten the article and hope it sounds much more neutral now. Feel free to make changes to it, of course. The only question which remains, therefore, regards the list. --Sn0wflake 18:30, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewritten

message: Since there is quite some debate and editting conflicts on this page let's exercise here who should be on the key artist list, mostly concerning more recent singers. Imo the list should contain those who have played a major role in the creation or shaping of the style or are prime examples thereof.
Without a doubt:  those involved in the early creation/development/shaping of the vocal style.
* Chris Barnes (ex-Cannibal Corpse, Six Feet Under)
* Lee Dorrian (Napalm Death)
* Martin van Drunen (Pestilence, Asphyx, Bolt Thrower, Comecon)
* Mark 'Barney' Greenway (Napalm Death, Benediction)
* Kam Lee (Massacre, Mantas / Death)
* Frank Mullen (Suffocation)
* Chris Reifert (Autopsy, Abscess, The Ravenous)
* Chuck Schuldiner (Death)
* Bill Steer (Carcass)
* John Tardy (Obituary)
* Jeffrey Walker (Carcass, Blackstar)
* Karl Willetts (Bolt Thrower)
Others currently on the list:
* Nick Holmes (early Paradise Lost) - a big maybe to me
* Aaron Stainthorpe (My Dying Bride) - what about this one?
* Darren White (Anathema) - a big maybe to me
* Burton C. Bell (Fear Factory) - shouldn't be here imo
* Sylvain Houde (Kataklysm) - extending the style to a new level of brutality
* Dave Ingram (Benediction, Bolt Thrower) - maybe - a prime example perhaps
* Darren Moore (Mourning Beloveth) - further exansion of the style in the doom/death genre
* Will Rahmer (Mortician) - shouldn't be here probably.
* Lord Worm (Cryptopsy) - extending the style to a new level of brutality
* Mikael Åkerfeldt (Opeth, Bloodbath) - prime example?
Others not on the list
* Alexi Laiho - too generic
* Karl Sanders- too generic
Spearhead 15:58, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to agree that the singers on the second and third list are not key to the genre. Maybe Dave Ingram, Darren White and Mikael Åkerfeldt are key to their respective genres, though. --Sn0wflake 16:11, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Holmes, White and Stainthorpe were very influential for many "Doom/Death" Metal vocalists, even if Holmes no longer uses this style. I suppose Burton C. Bell would be in question after Soul of A New Machine/Demanufacture. But to most, he was very well known for the style. --Danteferno 16:21, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Also might add that David Vincent (Morbid Angel) be included on the list as well. A very early, influential "death grunter" without question. --Danteferno 16:40, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who should be on the list?

message: I personally believe that the lead singer of Nile (Karl Sanders) deserves to be recognised as a brilliant death growler.
: maybe but that doesn't make him a key artist. The singers listed added something like in style or sheer brutality. What does Sanders add. Imo not much in that respect. So I don't think he should be added Spearhead 07:23, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hello. 

message: Been listening to death metal for years...still have NO idea how to death growl.
are there any techniques?
:Well, if you are a tenor you are probably better off not even trying, but if you are a basso or baritone you might have a shot. If you are a tenor you can try singing like Chuck Schuldiner or Alexi Laiho, though. --Sn0wflake 19:18, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to 

message: What does make Gossow a "Key artist in the development of the death grunt"?
She may be notable, but she certainly isn't a key contributor. Also she is by far not the first or only female grunter, probably the best known tho and as such she is in the main text of the article..  Spearhead 16:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Gossow has inspired a whole generation of female death grunters (have you looked at the underground scene lately?), so that must award her a place at the list. I do agree that it's argable, but I think she should be there. --Sn0wflake 23:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gossow 

message: Honestly, I'm offended.
Why, exactly, is it that this singing style is now called "Death Grunt" instead of the more widely-accepted term "Growling" on Wikipedia? Did the world get taken over by ponies while I was asleep?
-Daniel A. A. 01:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I feel the same. I've never known a death metal or grindcore fan to use the term. Jon138 17:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Growling versus Death Grunt. 

message: Just wondered why Burton C. Bell isn't cited as a influence on the growl/clean singing style?
Before Soul of a new Machine this was mostly, if not completely unheard of. And that record was pure death metal in my opinion.
::Second, I'd include him for sure. Vespine 05:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Burton C. Bell 

message: who think we should do this? like death grunt, goregrowls, black metal "squeals", melodeath growling, hardcore scream etc tec. would be beneficial perhaps. i dunno just a sugggestion.
:i sure agree with this. theres nothing on screeching, likeit doesnt exist. all these things should be put in one article surely.--Lygophile 01:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  a whole new article on "harsh vocal techniques"? 

message: *Death metal grunt: 1,040
*Death grunt: 10,700
*Death growl: 12,500
*Death metal growl: 15,200
Jon138 18:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Google results

message: Are there any female death or doom singers? I think it would be interesting to hear a female death grunt.
:Of course there are!  Didn't you read the article?  It mentions Lori Bravo and Angela Gossow.  I'm not familiar with Bravo, but I do know Gossow's band Arch Enemy.  Her singing is solid but unspectacular--not terribly different from male death metal vocalists, in fact.  But this is easily overlooked because she's kind of hot.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 20:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i think she's the greatest growler around. every song she gives something unique by adjusting her growl to fit the song. never heard this done, and dont know anyone with such direct controll and diversity of the sound.--Lygophile 11:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Gen Tasker of Defenestration, Otep, Morgan Lander of Kittie, ... quite a few. Separate section for them perhaps? // Gargaj 23:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Any female death/doom singers? 

message: It makes perfect sense to have this in here. It was removed before because it "wasn't scary" but I fail to see how that matters. This article is about a vocal style, not a philosophy. Ladysway1985 03:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that Boris the Spider belongs in the history--the guttural aspects of the vocals are surprisingly similar to modern death grunts.  However, I disagree that "scariness" is irrelevant to the evolution of the death grunt.  Although some death metal bands flirt with campiness/cheesiness, I find that, in general, extreme metal is supposed to have a dark/occult/evil aura about it.  The death grunt is mostly a way to achieve this dark mood and is less often a "jokey" delivery.  For this reason, I think the ominous, processed vocals from Black Sabbath and Pink Floyd are more pertinent.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 18:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, who sings the silly vocals on Boris the spider?  Is that Entwistle or Daltrey?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 18:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

text: that in a lot of metal it is supposed to be an obscure sound doesnt mean that grunts are by deffinition. if you listen to some technical or melodic death metal, the growling sound isnt necessarily that ominous or obscure. let me name death, dark tranquillity, atheist, some of carcass (eg. heartwork), children of bodom, maybe gojira. of course, they are either more like shrieks or they suck, but even so. theres more metal besides brutal death metal.--Lygophile 07:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what point you're making, but I'm pretty sure it's not relevant to the issue at hand: whether the death growl is supposed to be funny or not.  I am primarily addressing whether a vocal affectation that a singer from the 60s used in order to sound goofy or silly can be said to be a legitimate precursor to the modern death growl.  I think it cannot.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 15:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So by your logic, blues and rock, because they aren't supposed to sound angry or extreme, are not precursors to metal? I am glad that the song is at least mentioned in this article. As is evident; whether or not it was a precursor (it being one, being a very logical conclusion) is up for discussion. Oh, and I believe it's Entwhistle that does it.Ladysway1985 05:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boris the Spider