Talk:11th Airborne Division

message: Regarding the motto "First in Manila, First in Tokyo": this motto is used by the 1st Cavalry Division, not the 11th Airborne. In terms of history, the 1st Cavalry Division was first to enter Manila during the liberation of the Philippines, and no 11th Airborne trooper would dispute this. However, the title of "First in Tokyo" is often subject to debate. For example, a favorite story among 11th Airborne veterans claims that when the 1st Cavalry Division arrived in Tokyo, they were greeted by members of the 11th Airborne Division's band, playing the song "The old gray mare ain't what she used to be."
See:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,813586,00.html?promoid=googlep
http://www.ww2-airborne.us/18corps/11abn/11_overview.html
Also see the book "The Angels: A History of the 11th Airborne Division" by E.M. Flanagan, Jr. (Presidio Press, 1989)
Rhurst1945 21:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry the actual timeliness show that 11th Airborne landed in Japan well before the 1st Cavalry. The landings in all the primary material show an 8 hour earlier landing by the 11th. Let's not repeat myths like those above with citations that are not citations. The time magazine article is simply an article about First Cav, relating its claims. The second citation actually asserts 11th Airborne was first into Tokyo.  Flanagan book indicate 11th airborne was first when one looks at the primary material Flanagan uses.!72.75.33.54 (talk) 22:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

text: The 11th Airborne Angels were assigned to the 187th Infantry Regiment, I know that the regimental motto is "Ne Desit Vertis" or Let not Valor Fail. Does that make the divisions motto the same? They also referred themselves Hell's Angels does that count as a motto. See http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/Unit_history/regiment_history/187th-infantry-regiment-u.shtml and https://sites.google.com/site/seans11thairborne/Home Jrfras (talk) 11:35, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: 11th Airborne Motto

message: Article reassessed and graded as start class.  Referencing and  appropriate inline citation guidelines not met.    --dashiellx (talk) 17:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008 

message: I'm copy and pasting this information here for safekeeping whilst I begin a revamp of the article Skinny87 (talk) 19:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Safekeeping

message: I've started to take a look at the article, and there's a line I wanted to ask about. In the Knollwood Manoeuvres (btw, shouldn't this page use AE per WP:ENGVAR?) section, there's the line
:"as occurred to the 82nd Airborne Division, which participated in the first large-scale Allied airborne operation, Operation Husky and had also been activated at the same time as the 17th Airborne Division"
Was that a typo, and it's supposed to be 11th? If not, I would consider removing the comparison to the 17th, because it kind of comes out of nowhere. It'd be better to just give the date the 82nd was formed, to illustrate the short time between formation and deployment into combat. Parsecboy (talk) 13:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's another question: in the same section, when it refers to "I Troop Carrier Command", is that another typo? It should be referring to IX Troop Carrier Command, shouldn't it? Parsecboy (talk) 13:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed the 17th ABD to 11th, that was indeed a typo. However, it isn't XI Troop Carrier Command, just I TCC. I'm not familiar with it, but it might have been a predecessor to IX. As for ENGVAR, I'll try and use American English when I edit it next. Is it a major problem? Skinny87 (talk) 13:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, you appear to be correct about I TCC, from what the IX TCC article states: "The original cadre came from "Headquarters 1st Troop Carrier Command" established as a provisional headquarters". I haven't noticed too many issues with ENGVAR, in fact, all of the instances of maneuver/manoeuvre in that section were of the AE variety, only the section header was BE. Parsecboy (talk) 16:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A question about wording 

message: You can't have a discussion about the 11th Airborne Division without any mention of the Howze Board - it was based on their recommendation that the 11th be set up as a test division for the airmobile concept.--Nobunaga24 (talk) 08:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh, I never even heard of it in the secondary sources. Cheers for that. The article's going through an FAC at the moment, but I'll add it in the histry when I get a chance. Skinny87 (talk) 17:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm working on expanding and improving the section on the Test division. It's got some issues right now. Intothatdarkness 14:20, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Howze Board 

message: The existing text for this time period reads: 
"The 187th began an intensive training regime, conducting several training exercises, before being temporarily deactivated on 19 June for budgetary reasons.
"The 187th was reactivated less than a year later on 1 March 1957 as two separate formations: 1st Airborne Battle Group, 187th Infantry; and 2nd Airborne Battle Group, 187th Infantry. These were transferred to Augsburg to join their former parent formation, where they were reintegrated into the 11th Airborne Division. However, the division was itself deactivated in Augsburg on 1 July 1958, and the 1st and 2nd Airborne Battle Groups were instead attached to the 24th Infantry Division."  
This is not correct.  The 187th ARCT was assigned to the newly-reactivated 101st Airborne Division on 1 July 1956 (the 508th ARCT was also assigned at this time to the 101st) and in the following year the regiment was broken up when the Army phased out infantry regiments (typically three per division, with three battalions in each) in favor of five battle groups per division, with five companies in each.  This was the so-called Pentomic concept, and the lineage of Company B, 187th Infantry Regiment was perpetuated by HHC, 2nd Airborne Battle Group, 187th Infantry in the 101st.  In Germany, the 11th Airborne Division was also reorganized into the Pentomic configuration, and the lineage of old Company A, 187th was perpetuated by HHC, 1st Airborne Battle Group, 187th Infantry.  Additionally, 2-187th never moved to Germany to join 1-187th within the 11th Airborne Division.  All of this is detailed here by the US Army Center of Military History, Fort McNair, Washington, DC:
1-187th
http://www.history.army.mil/html/forcestruc/lineages/branches/inf/0187in001bn.htm
  
2-187th
http://www.history.army.mil/html/forcestruc/lineages/branches/inf/0187in002bn.htm
Regarding the reactivation of the division as the 11th Air Assault Division (Test), the text also states:
"Its original combat units—the 187th Glider Infantry Regiment, the 188th Glider Infantry Regiment, and the 511th Parachute Infantry Regiment—were also reformed under the new division."
The terms "Glider" and "Parachute" were eliminated in favor of "Airborne" in the late 1940s when glider units were phased out and converted to parachute.  The term "regiment" was not used since true regiments were no longer part of the force structure under the Pentomic concept.  When the Army abandoned the Pentomic concept in the early 1960s in favor of brigades and battalions, "regiment" was still not used.  Instead, a battalion would carry a designation such as "3d Battalion, 187th Infantry."  There was no regimental headquarters, but instead a brigade headquarters above battalion level, and regimental numbers were only used for purposes of lineage and honors.
The infantry battalions in the 11th AAD(T) were 3-187th, 1-188th, and 1-511th.  On 1 Feb 64, the colors of 3-187th were moved to the 101st Airborne Division and the unit was reflagged with the colors of 1-187th.  See:
1-187th
http://www.history.army.mil/html/forcestruc/lineages/branches/inf/0187in001bn.htm
3-187th
http://www.history.army.mil/html/forcestruc/lineages/branches/inf/0187in003bn.htm
27 Jul 09  —Preceding unsigned comment added by VilePig (talk • contribs) 17:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Gosh, that's quite complex. When I get time, I'll reword the article as best I can. Skinny87 (talk) 10:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Before I try and incorporate this, I can't find it (but I'm wondering if there might be one buried somewhere with a tricky title), but is there a page on American military unit structure that might include (or perhaps benefit from) some of this info? Some of it seems like it should be there rather than specifically in this article  Ranger Steve (talk) 21:57, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, good question. I certainly don't know of one; maybe ask the US MILHIST taskforce? They're usually quite active. Skinny87 (talk) 09:10, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Late 1950s and early 1960 

message: Might be worth adding that the jump pay paid to qualified paratroopers was the extra pay over that of an ordinary soldier. Actual numbers would be useful if you can find them; from what I remember it was a significant difference.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll try and see what I can find, although it might be a bit general and not specific to the division. Skinny87 (talk) 19:26, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Stephen Ambrose records a $50 dollar bonus for enlisted men, and officers a $100 bonus per month that "paratroopers recieved", so I doubt that was limited to just Easy Company!  That's WWII era though, may change in peacetime.  I'm afraid I've been unexpectedly a little busy today Skinny, so apologies for not dealing with the above, but I will get onto it, unless someone else does first. Ranger Steve (talk) 17:36, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem duder, I'm going to be busy next few days myself. Skinny87 (talk) 17:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jump pay 

message: RE this paragraph:
"As the American Army began to restructure its organisation (known as the Pentomic Concept), the battalions of the 187th were re-designated as Airborne Battle Groups. In early 1957 the 1st Airborne Battle Group, 187th Infantry transferred to Augsburg to join its former parent formation, where it was reintegrated into the 11th Airborne Division.[78] The 2nd Airborne Battle Group, 187th Infantry remained with the 101st until 1964[79] while the 3rd Battalion was inactivated.[80] However, the 11th Division was itself inactivated in Augsburg on 1 July 1958, and the 1st Airborne Battle Group was instead moved to the 24th Infantry Division."
Battalions were not redesignated as battle groups. Under the regimental structure, the three regiments each had three battalions, for a total of nine. A Pentomic division had five battle groups. The assets of battalion and regimental HQ units were used to for battle group HQ, but there was no direct conversion of battalions to battle groups. Also keep in mind that, during this period of reflagging and reorganization, typically a unit's colors would go in one direction and the troops in another. When the 11th was reorganized as Pentomic, it included regimental designations that had previously been with the 82d and 101st Airborne divisions and were administratively transferred to the 11th.
In early 1957 physical elements of the old 187th ARCT were not transferred to the 11th Airborne Division. The assets of the 187th ARCT (as well as the 508th ARCT) were used to form the 101st Airborne Division, the colors of which were transferred from a basic training organization at Fort Jackson, SC, to Fort Campbell, KY, for reorganization as a combat division. When the 11th went Pentomic in Germany, only the colors of Co A, 187th (the lineage of which was reorganized as HHC, 1st ABG, 187th Inf) went to the 11th in Germany. The troops of the former 187th ARCT remained in the new 101st. The lineage of Co B, 187th remained in the 101st as HHC, 2d ABG, 187th Inf. The rest of the company lineages went inactive and the battalion HQ company lineages were disbanded. The lineage of Co C, 187th remained inactive until reactivated in 1963 as HHC, 3d Battalion (Abn), 187th Infantry, the only Airborne battalion in the 11th Air Assault Division (Test). The other two infantry battalions (1-188th and 1-511th) were non-Airborne units performing in an Air Assault role. 3-187th moved to the 101st the following year and was replaced in the 11th by 1-187th, and in the next year its colors were inactivated again when the assets of the 11th AAD(T) and the 2d Infantry Division were merged to form the 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile).
Getting back to Germany in the late 1950s, the former lineage of Co A, 187th (reorganized and redesignated as HHC, 1-187th Inf) was indeed assigned to the 11th Abn Div from 1 March 1957 to 1 July 1958. On that date it was relieved from assignment to the 11th Airborne Division and assigned to the 24th Infantry Division. There was, however, no physical transfer of the unit. What took place was that the 11th was reflagged and reorganized as the 24th Infantry Division. Of the five airborne battle groups assigned to the 11th, only 1-187th and 1-503d remained on jump status. Almost all other divisional units were reflagged and reorganized as non-Airborne. About a year later these two remaining battle groups were physically transferred by troop ship to the 82d Abn Div at Fort Bragg, NC, and replaced in the 24th by non-Airborne battle groups, while 1-504th and 1-505th were transferred from the 82d to central West Germany for assignment to the 8th Infantry Division. Yes, it was a time of great turbulence and it can be confusing to follow, and indeed most in the Army today don't understand it or misinterpret it.VilePig (talk) 16:00, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Inactivation of the 11th in Germany

message: How did the glider troops training compare to the paratroopers with the 11th? I know the 511th was waived the 1st of 4 weeks at Benning, the physical fitness phase A, because observers felt they were fit enough to go straight to phase B. I read in "The Angels" that glider troops described basic at Camp McCall as "vigorous" while airborne training was described is "rigorous"; the terms definitely implicate by degree. Yet I've also seen, including in this article, that rigorous training was the standard division wide. Anyone know? Thanks. Ledboots (talk) 22:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey there. I work on a lot of airborne-related article on en.wikipedia, so I might be able to help here. Could you give some more specifics on what you're looking for? Do you mean the purely physical workout the glider troops and paratroopers got, or a more wider view encompassing weapons training, tactics and so forth? Skinny87 (talk) 23:27, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: para vs glider training

message: I do apologize for screwing up the infobox. I was gonna fix it after dinner, but my brother, (who is the wikia contributer) messed it up and I didn't know how to fix it.Please excuse me and my brother.--SonnyBobSampson (talk) 22:55, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: What did replacement week-long glider training consist of? Mock-up? One flight? Two? Thanks. 2601:8D:503:9780:549A:EDDA:4953:AD17 (talk) 12:54, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Guinea Glider Training 

message: In almost all cases, calling a unit the #th Airborne is just a special way of speaking about a particular infantry division. For example, the 82nd and 101st Airborne are really the 82nd and 101st infantry divisions. Just as the 10th Mountain is really the 10th infantry division. Is the 11th Airborne different? Maybe it is? I am just not sure why there is both an 11th Infantry Division entry as well as a 11th Airborne Division page. - Atfyfe (talk) 09:28, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The two divisions are completely separate, were created at different times and have completely different formation histories. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 08:34, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

text: , thanks for bringing this up, and I'd generally agree with you. But in this case (based upon the articles) there doesn't appear to be any overlap between the divisions. The 11th Infantry was activated during WWI and the Airborne first activated in WWII. I'd suggest closing this merger proposal. Best, Eddie891  Talk Work  12:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 11th Airborne Division and 11th Infantry Division Articles 

message: I created a provisional graphic of the 11th Airborne's organization. I will not yet add it to the article as I want to see what happens with the 1st Brigade and the CAB. If anyone has information that will help to improve/correct the graphic, please leave a message on my talk page. noclador (talk) 23:18, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The 1st Brigade gave up its Strikers and is now just an Infantry BCT with plans to turn it into an Air Assault Infantry BCT in the near future. In addition to watching the recorded live stream of a Q&A session with NCOs on the 11th's Facebook page, read the cited sources in the "Present day" section for more evidence of the reorganization. Also note that the DIVARTY will take time to create but does not exist yet. Also note that the division may not get a division support brigade due to its size; they could just get the 17th CSSB and call it good. I am waiting on published info on the USARAK website to see what the real structure of the division will be.  --McChizzle (talk) 23:52, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you for the information McChizzle. Should I change the icons of the 1st Brigade to infantry or air assault? For the other changes I will wait until more info on the USARAK website comes online. noclador (talk) 08:58, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I would change the 1st Brigade to an Infantry BCT for that has already been announced. When that IBCT gets qualified to be an air assault IBCT is not known. Also, I would remove the DIVARTY for it does not exist yet and will take time to create. --McChizzle (talk) 10:07, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Changed 1st BCT to IBCT. Added "(being raised)" to the DIVARTY as it will be activated for sure. I wonder if they will add units to the CAB... with an Air Assault ICBT they will need lots more helicopters. noclador (talk) 17:52, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Provisional organization graphic

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:49, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: 11th Airborne Division (United States) →  – Only 11th Airborne Div. on Wikipedia. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 12:09, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 28 July 2022