Talk:Hockey Hall of Fame/Archive 1

message: First off, the links should end any dispute about Hockey Canada's relationship with the HHOF; I'd just hope that any editors who have a contrary assertion to make on the issue might come with evidence next time out.
Secondly, any putative candidacies of particular women players (or whether female players are worthy of induction at all) are of course POV -- although I note that HockeyHistorian had no objection when including his own candidates to the mix.  That the induction of female stars is a controversial issue is, however, not POV, when mentioned in the Controversies section, one would think.  RGTraynor 02:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, plainly Hockey Canada disagrees with you, as per their own website.  Evidence to the contrary, please?  As far as your "frontrunner" assertions go, you must provide some basis for the assertion other than your personal claim for it.  RGTraynor 17:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Pretty much.  Considering that the Basketball Hall of Fame -- in a sport with decades of lineage of top-flight women's collegiate teams and a hall far ahead of the HHOF in inducting college and international players -- has inducted all of eight women, it's outrageously premature to cite anyone in particular as being a "frontrunner."  There might not be a woman inducted for another couple decades, at which time who knows what future stars might have emerged?  Besides which, Scorpion's quite right:  given the HHOF's record (Clark Gillies??) there's no assurance that a supposed #1 woman's going to be the first pick.  RGTraynor 04:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hockey Canada / Women candidates 

message: I see there was already a big dustup here about the name.  But I'm quite sure the full name is Hockey Hall of Fame and Museum, anyone think otherwise?  Kevlar67 12:19, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no reason to dispute that it's the corporate name, in the same fashion that the legal name of the state is "Rhode Island and Providence Plantations."  It's still not the name by which people think of the institution.  RGTraynor 21:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name (again) 

message: First off, there is nothing on that section stating "Here is a listing of HHOF members from Approved (tm) Hockey Hall of Fame Dynasties."  Secondly, we are under no compunction to push the HHOF's POV as to what collections of Honoured Members are worthy of mention or not.  Thirdly, why, sure, why not the 30s Habs or the 70s Flyers?  Last I saw, there's never been a definition of "Great Teams" with no other criteria than winning three Cups or more in a row, and if so, why are the Montreal Vics, the Silver Seven and the Montreal Wanderers excluded?  Why are the Red Wings or the Oilers, who never won more than back-to-back Cups, included?  This is smacking of pure POV.  RGTraynor 03:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there has never been a definition of greatest teams and which is why we have to follow sources. When I first made the section, I only added teams and players listed on the HHOF website Dynasty section. Seeing as this is the page for the Hall of Fame, it makes sense to follow that source. Adding teams without following a source is POV. I mainly added the section to illustrate the point that LARGE portions of Original 6 era teams are inducted, not to list the "greatest teams ever" or anything. -- Scorpion 04:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Purported "dynasties" 

message: According to The Hockey News, because of the lockout, there are no eligible players for 2008, just a messload for 2009. Yet, the article has a list of players eligible in 2008. This should be removed. Briememory 16:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be interested in hearing what the Hall of Fame has to say, not what THN editorializes.  According to the HHOF website, the criteria is three years after retirement, not three seasons.   RGTraynor  18:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2008? 

message: Why was the info about the first inductions removed?  The note about International Hockey Hall of Fame inductions prior to 1958 is correct.  This should be corrected on here. --BondFast 17:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Because you are the most transparent sockpuppet we've seen in almost a year. You've been indef banned for a reason. -- Chabuk [ T • C ] 17:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: As per the banning policy, any edits made in defiance of a ban may be reverted to enforce the ban, regardless of the merits of the edits themselves.  -- JamesTeterenko 17:52, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  original inductions 

message: "Paul Henderson" + "Hockey Hall of Fame" = 36,000 hits.
"Dino Ciccarelli" + "Hockey Hall of Fame" = 1,800 hits.
Heck, there are websites devoted to Henderson's soi-disant candidacy and nothing but.  Now I'm solidly in the anti-camp -- there is no reason to think this guy a HHOFer than for two weeks in 1972, and the only reason he made the team at all was having his career year the season before -- but the buzz on his candidacy has been very well sourced throughout the years.    RGTraynor  21:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not particularly -- what Henderson did, in fact, was score three particular goals in a single tournament, and if that's your criteria, let Mel Hill in -- but in any event (a) the comment's several months old, (b) this isn't the place to debate it, but (c) there's no question that Henderson's been the most prominent HHOF controversy for a couple decades now.    RGTraynor  04:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversies 

message: Last section on Controversies reads:
"As the careers of some recent prominent female hockey players wind down, many have debated about whether or not they should be inducted.[20] All four are considered to be among the best women's hockey players ever, partly because their statistics in international play are similar to male counterparts who are already in the Hall of Fame as well as their play in various women's hockey leagues. Wickenheiser was also the first woman to score a goal in a men's professional league."
"All four"? I have no idea who/what the text is talking about, could use a look over. Lejman 00:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversies, women 

message: The bit about the building being "haunted" was contributed by User:Aude in April 2007. User:Aude is being contacted to see whether this "haunting" appears anywhere in print. Otherwise... --Wetman (talk) 01:45, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Haunted"—— by a bank teller 

message: These statements:
*Many feel that too many players are inducted
*that the Original Six era is overrepresented (in some years in the 1960s, as many as a third of the players in the league went on to HHOF membership)
*WHA and international players have been ignored.
*The bit about women. I am considering taking it out, because it doesn't appear to be a criticism
Because I would love to expand those statements, so it would be helpful to have more sources. -- Scorpion0422 04:28, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stuff that could use online sources 

message: The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
*Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, if January 15, 2006 appeared in the article, link it as January 15, 2006.[?]
*There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
**are considered
**might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).[?] 
*Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: honour (B) (American: honor), defence (B) (American: defense), criticize (A) (British: criticise), ization (A) (British: isation).
*Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]
**Small copyedit, yes, but not a super-thorough needed one for FA status, but wholly acceptable for GA
You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Maxim(talk) 17:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some food for thought 

message: This article is looking good.  Though, two things that I think can be improved.  (1) The "Exhibits" section could use more detail.  The Great Hall could be a paragraph.  In addition to displaying the trophies, the names of all inductees are also there. Then something about the original six, international hockey exhibits, and then the interactive exhibits.  (2) Pictures.  The Stanley Cup picture is mine, but it's not the best picture and I no longer like it.  If I come again to the HHOF, I will try retaking the picture to get something better.  For now, I like this picture better.  Aside from that picture, I do have good quality pictures of the rest of the HHOF that can be uploaded this weekend. --Aude (talk) 18:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the suggestions, I'll work on expanding the exhibits section. As for images, there are two that I would specifically love to have: one of the entire Great Hall (as that is where the inductions take place) and an image of one of the rooms with as many exhibits as possible. Do you have images along those lines? -- Scorpion0422 19:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was two years ago, so I don't 100% remember.  But, pretty sure I have such photos stored on one of my hard disks. --Aude (talk) 19:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two things 

message: :GA review (see here for criteria)
#It is reasonably well written.
#:a (prose):  b (MoS): 
#:: 
#It is factually accurate and verifiable.
#:a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
#:: 
#It is broad in its coverage.
#:a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
#:: 
#It follows the neutral point of view policy.
#:Fair representation without bias: 
#:: 
#It is stable.
#:No edit wars etc.: 
#:: 
#It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
#:a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 
#:: 
#Overall: 
#:Pass/Fail: 
#:: 
After thoroughly checking over this article and its references, I can see nothing which holds it back from becoming a GA. There are only positive things to say about this article (i.e. five references to one sentence on one part). Congratualtions to the main contributors and keep up the good work :) Qst 14:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Successful GA nomination 

message: Scorpion0422 asked me/I volunteered to copyedit this article. My general problem with the prose is that it's not flowing, not compelling, and overall not brilliant (but good). I'm quite busy in Real Life right now, but I'll try to do a decent job on it. I've taken a few looks at this, and I'm working on this (but not pasting it into the article just yet), and I found some citation issues
* In the lead, there is "In 1993, there was controversy over the induction of Gil Stein and the NHL claimed that he had engineered his election. There was an investigation of these allegations and Stein would decline his induction" Who said there was controversy, or is it purely your opinionated analysis of the situation. This is also sort of a sensitive subject, so I think a citation or two would be appropriate?
* In the history section, "(Sutherland) had wanted to establish it in Kingston, Ontario because of his beliefs that the city was the birthplace of hockey." Needs a citation. 
* Operations and organization section: "Hewitson's and Reid's combined vision and commitment to acquiring, documenting and preserving everything related to hockey gave the Hall of Fame a foundation to build upon in the future." Sound kinda promotional and like a quote, I believe a citation is in order.
This is not all, this is simply a sample glance at the article. Expect more in the coming days. Maxim(talk) 20:29, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In the middle case, there is a citation later on in the paragraph (generally I don't add two citations in a row) and the first one is in the lead, so it doesn't need a cite because there are citations later on. I removed your third point because it DOES sound a lot like a promotional quote (it was there when I started working on the article and I never removed it for some reason). -- Scorpion0422 23:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyedit 

message: *The Brookfield paragraph is a little trivialish and quite big compared to the other paragraphs. Is it necessary, or is it necessary for it to be itself such a big paragraph? I was thinking of a mention in the part that deals with the new building itself, but I removed some detail there, as I think it was too much info in an article about the Hall of Fame.
*What is a 'stag affair'?
**That's what it says in the book, so I put it in quotes. I assume it means that it's not a family friendly atmosphere.
*'Admission to the Hockey Hall of Fame was free to the public until 1980, when the Hockey Hall of Fame facilities underwent expansion.' - Can you make this part any bigger? It seems to abruptly end and I was expecting to find something more on this.
**It was in the article when I started working on it. I couldn't find anything else about it, so I left it at that.
*I removed 'It was the Toronto headquarters of the Bank of Montreal from 1885 until new head branch was opened at King and Bay.' in the paragraph that talked about the move from the CNE place to the old BMO one. I feel it is unnecessary in context of the Hockey Hall of Fame. Usually, this isn't the responsibility of the copyeditor, but since my speciality is hockey, I think that was a good idea. Feel free to reinsert this part if you disagree.
*Also removed 'The beaux-arts building was then scheduled to become a museum of photography, but plans fell through. The bank building was restored at a cost of $23 million, under direction of designer Ken Young.' Same reasons as above.
*I fixed up the authors in the reference, for now in this section alone. I think it's better to be consistent on this, as you had both 'John Smith' and "Smith, John". I've changed to "Smith, John" all over using parameters last= and first=.
Maxim(talk) 01:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some notes on the history section 

message: *As happened last time, the ref's authors are formatted using last= and first=. I'll keep this consistent, but there is no need to change anything now, as I have version stored from which I'm copyediting, so I'll still fix the refs again.  
*The second paragraph in the "operations and organization" section sounds a bit promotional. I am not sure how to rework it yet keep the good content in it. Would you be able to take a look at it?
Maxim(talk) 15:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Operations & organization and exhibits

message: *I've done the first two paragraphs, and I have a quick questions about the second paragraph; can you avoid using the long quotation somehow: "generally, but not necessarily exclusively, composed of former hockey players, former coaches of hockey teams, former referees or linesman for hockey leagues or associations, current or former senior executives of hockey teams or hockey leagues or associations and present or former members of the media who cover or covered the game of hockey." I'm not sure of how the MoS works here, but I think over 4 lines, the quotation should be separated from the rest of the text with  and that looks awkward. I think this is more of a content issue, and I'm leaving this to you to rework it. Maxim(talk) 14:03, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Hall of Fame

message: Something about the banks ghost would have been nice  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.218.216.8 (talk) 00:57, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There was something about that up until recently, but it was decided that it was more suited for an article about the Brookfield Place building, whereas this is about the Hall of Fame, so a few ghost sightings in the building really doesn't fit very well. -- Scorpion0422 01:12, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ghost 

message: Yesterday the Hockey Hall of Fame garnered approx. 23,000 views while on the main page.  This is on the average side, some TFAs have three times that amount of views. Pre-dreadnought_battleship had 73,000 views while ESRB re-rating of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, the TFA two days before, had 82,000 views and the day after was viewed by by 21,000 people. However others this month like Joseph Priestly has less than 20,000. -- Scorpion0422 17:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of views the article had while on the main page 

message: I added a tag to request citation for the first two paragraphs. It has since been removed but I hope someone will source this. NorthernThunder (talk) 00:02, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Per WP:LEAD, citations are not needed in the lead (the introduction of an article) if the statements are cited in the rest of the article. In this case they are, so citations aren't needed. -- Scorpion0422 00:10, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: This seems to be NHL's Hall of Fame... shouldn't that be mentioned in the intro more directly? I'd edit, but I don't like to mess with high-quality articles unless I know a lot about the topic.Lejman (talk) 09:16, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Technically, it is not the NHL Hall of Fame, as many people have been inducted who either did not play in or represent the NHL (Vladislav Tretiak) or made virtually no contribution at the NHL level (Günther Sabetzki).  The HHOF has been criticized for being too much like the "NHL Hall of Fame", which is duely noted in the article, though the selection committee has been making efforts to induct more non-NHL people. (Ed Chynoweth, Murray Costello - played in NHL, but inducted for his international efforts, Brian Kilrea, Athol Murray come to mind). Resolute 15:27, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  NHL Hall of Fame 

message: The HHOF moved its archives to the MasterCard Centre in fall 2009. I was considering adding that info, but I'm not sure if it should go in History or Operations. Since it is an FA, I did not want to go ahead and just add it without discussion.  ʘ alaney2k ʘ  (talk) 14:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doc Seaman Hockey Resource Centre 

message: I think that the line "Originally called the International Hockey Hall of Fame" is misleading since the IIHOF still exists and is a completely separate entity from the HHOF, even inducting members after the HHOF moved to Toronto. What is now the IHHOF was the basis for the HHOF and when Campbell pulled the NHL support, the new HHOF started new and inducted the original 40 members of the IHHOF. It's not entire clear in the HHOF history section, but it does state that "The Kingston organizing committee reeled with the news, but continued their quest begun by Captain Sutherland. In 1965, they opened the Hockey Hall of Fame in Kingston (later to be named the International Hockey Hall of Fame) " so perhaps i am miss reading it but the other links provided appear to back me up.--Leech44 (talk) 16:14, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: True, I suppose I could have noted that fact, but my point remains valid non the less--Leech44 (talk) 20:51, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, after re-reading some of the articles and trying to look at it from both sides, it might be that I am interpreting things differently. My interpretation was that once the NHL established it's own HHOF and the Kingston based IHHOF still existed that the HHOF was an entirely new entity and not part of the original Kingston Hall of Fame, based on the IHHOF's website stating: "in 1958 the NHL severed ties with Kingston and established it's own HOF in Toronto, Ontario. It did recognize the first 40 inductees during the Kingston era" and from the HHOF website stating: "...The Kingston organizing committee reeled with the news, but continued their quest begun by Captain Sutherland. In 1965, they opened the Hockey Hall of Fame in Kingston (later to be named the International Hockey Hall of Fame). " However, it never says that it was a new entity and not simply moving, I guess it's probably like a franchise moving the history remains with the team even if a new franchise come to the same city.--Leech44 (talk) 13:01, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  The IHHOF has certainly pushed the POV (as well it might) that it's the original HHOF, and that the rascals from the NHL and Toronto rebelled and usurped its glory.  I'd think a good bit more of that POV if the Kingston committee had actually built a building before the HHOF did, and if they didn't appear to have thrown in the towel soon after they did.   RGTraynor  21:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  International Hockey Hall of Fame 

message: This article states the opposite of the Conn Smythe article. According to the Smythe article, Smythe resigned over the induction of Jackson. And Selke defended the induction of Jackson. I got the Smythe info from newspaper reports of the time. Possibly Selke resigned later? ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 17:39, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct. My source for that was a book released by the HHOF, and I mis-read the passage. -- Scorpion0422 19:55, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Busher Jackson induction 

message: Many hockey players who should be in the Hall aren't! Jimmy Skinner should definitely be in the Hall specifically as a Builder & he is constantly by-passed...why? Many of his players have been inducted years ago.  This man should be inducted. He passed away in 2007. Fan from Windsor.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.200.48.149 (talk) 15:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jimmy Skinner 

message: Certainly agree with subject matter. Many players of the past who helped to build the sport have been overlooked. Jimmy Skinner was definitely one of those people. He is definitely a "builder" as most of the players he coached & mentored are now in the Hall. The  Hall needs to dig deeper to ensure these people are not forgotten for their contribution to hockey.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.200.71.240 (talk) 17:02, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  By-passed players 

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