Talk:Clan Macfie

message: Removed recently from MacFie
"Clan MacFie is formally recognised as an armigerous clan in Scotland by the Lord Lyon, this honorific having been obtained by members of the board of the sugar manufacturers Tate & Lyle Ltd. who desired recognition from King George IV when he visited Scotland in 1822, the first visit by an English monarch since 1650.
Tartans and kilts were produced and displayed on that occasion, regardless of authenticity. The MacFies and the MacIvers came out with the same tartan design, an anomaly which has never been corrected." Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:26, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the tartan bit was left in, fact template intact. If you can find a good reference I see no reason not to reinstate it, and also to perhaps mention that MacFie's Treacle was major brand name for T&L in those days.Wwwhatsup 18:46, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Right, both (unreferenced) statements were moved over to this article, as you can see. The tartan statement is outdated though, as the clan has apparently had its own tartan since 1991, (a tartan near identical to the MacIver tartan).--Celtus 05:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I found a ref that mentions Tate & Lyle, though its short and pretty vague. Macfie of Dreghorn matriculated arms in the Lyon Register in 1864. He was a member of a powerful merchant family with considerable interests in the sugar-refining industry. The company was eventually to be taken over by the present sugar giants, Tate & Lyle. I added a short footnote in the article.--Celtus (talk) 03:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Tate and Lyle

message: Thankyou Celtus for your work on improving the article. Much appreciated. I am, as you might guess, a MacFie. I recall my father remarking that we were an uncommon breed due, partly, to the many members lost at the Battle of Culloden. Is that documented at all? Wwwhatsup 06:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Wwwhatsup you're welcome. The Clan Macfie Homepage mentions how Macfies were with the Camerons at the Battle of Culloden. The Culloden article on wiki mentions that too, too bad there aren't any inline citations to show where the information came from.--Celtus 05:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Culloden

message: On the offical website, their newsletter and the a couple other sites i've seen, the clan is consistantly spelt with a lower case f. And this from here The Lord Lyon of Scotland recognizes the spelling 'Macfie' as the only official spelling of our clan name. So i'm going to move the page to Clan Macfie.--Celtus 05:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Clan MacFie to Clan Macfie

message: If one searches Wikipedia on macfie, one comes up with MacFie. This article, while having a see also that refers to this article, more directly links to Mahaffey. Surely both these pages are redundant, and could be replaced with redirects to this article, or at least the links on each should be amended. Wwwhatsup 19:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Rereading Mahaffey- there are a few things in there that could be adopted into this article.Wwwhatsup 19:31, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah much of it just blends into this article. The bit about the standing stone should go into this article it think, it shouldn't be hard to find citations for that part.--Celtus 05:21, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  A big improvement. Good job! Wwwhatsup 11:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Redundant pages

message: The following changes have been made on behalf of the Clan Commander A.C. (Sandy) McPhie, at his request, by myself, Scot McPhie, Web Master for the MacFie Clan:
1.  Opening paragraph entitled "Clan Macfie", rewritten to read:"Clan Macfie is one of the oldest Scottish Clans.  Centred on the southern Inner Hebrides islands of Colonsay and Oronsay, the Clan lost its last Chief, Malcolm, in 1623 and became a 'broken' clan, dispossessed of its homelands.  No line of descent from Chief Malcolm has been established and the Clan remained 'broken' until 27th May 1981 when the Lord Lyon King of Arms recognised Clan Macfie as again being an 'active' clan and subsequently, appointed a Ceann-Cath, or Clan Commander.  The ancient name of the Clan was Macdubhsith, this anglicised in time to MacDuffie or MacPhee which were then considered synonymous.  To-day's spelling of the Clan name as Macfie was determined by the Lord Lyon using the surname spelling of the first Clan member to receive a Grant of Arms.  To-day Clan Macfie is alive, with nine Clan Societies located around the world."
     
2.  History paragraph - Skene sentance moved here, along with the wire diagram.
     
3. Deletion of Last in Line of Chiefs section, as in the Commander's opinion it does not enhace the entry. Minor wording ammendments, as per instructions: (a) fourth line delete "to the south western corner of the island" and insert in lieu "to the islands at the southwestern end of Oronsay"; (b) line thirteen etc., opening reword to "number of Clan Macfie members settled in Lochaber after the loss of Colonsay and followed Cameron of Lochiel."
4. Deletion of MacFie the Outlaw section as in the Commander's opinion it does nothing to enhance the Clan's history or image.
5. Modern Clan section - minor changes to wording, notably "appointed" for "recognised" 
     
6.  Clan Profile - minor changes - mainly deletion of references to Clan McIvor tartan
     
7.  Associated Names - after "Clan Macfie" "and" deleted and replaced with "as", and the following statement also inserted "The Clan Commander recognizes the historical links Clan Macfie had with the Macdonald Lords of the Isles, Clan Cameron and a branch of Clan McNicol in Glenorchy.  More recently, close links have been established by Clan Macfie with Thorburns in Sweden and the Brew family in New Zealand."
*Please note some of these changes are yet to be given footnote attributions  -- Scotness 20:45, October 28, 2007
:I think Macphee the outlaw should definitely be included in the article, he seems to be the most well known 'Macfie' of his era, a true highland character (exactly the kind of thing people reading up on their clan would be interested in), and most importantly he's mentioned in other published accounts of the clan. The Macfie genealogy is relevant because it actually shows why Skene figured the Macfies were a Siol Alpin clan. Its pretty interesting too.--Celtus 04:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps Macphee the outlaw merits his own article and just a brief mention in this one. Wwwhatsup 06:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. Just so long as we are clear that the purpose of this article is to provide factual and referenced information, NOT to 'enhance the Clan's history or image'. Anything unreferenced should of course be removed. Ben MacDui(Talk)/(Walk) 07:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ben made a good point, because the Commander thinks "it does nothing to enhance the Clan's history or image" isn't a reason...  Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia not a collection of advertisements or vanity pieces. How exactly does an outlaw ruin the image of a Scottish clan? One of the reasons clans so popular with people of Scottish heritage is because of the romanticism of the rebellious clans, feuds and battles.--Celtus 05:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The older version, especially in the opening, was considerably better than this new version.  As Celtus has quite correctly stated, "Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia," and thus it is not appropriate for those with a vested interest (quite possibly a conflict of interest) to edit the article to suit said interest.  I am sympathetic to the purpose of these most recent edits, and do not assume any ill intent on the part of Scotness.  Still, we must strive for balance and factual accuracy.  ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 18:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with the changes Celtus made today, reverting to the old intro and replacing the 'outlaw' section. -- Wwwhatsup (talk) 19:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes made on behalf of the Commander

message: BTW here's a totally obscure reference to Macfies defying the powers that be in more recent history. Wwwhatsup 06:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice find. Search for Colonsay and you get pictures of a few of the monuments relating to the Macfies. They're out of copyright so they'd work too, just a bit small. I wonder what book they were published in, it only lists the artist's name. One of them would go well in the article.--Celtus 05:48, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

text: from the New York Public Library collection: good ol' Ewen Macphee.--Celtus (talk) 11:06, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Outlaw Macfies

message: ===Lead===
"The 19th century historian W. F. Skene named the clan as one of the seven clans of Siol Alpin – who according Skene could all trace their ancestry back to Alpin, father of Cináed mac Ailpín."
"According to Sken" should be set off with commas. Also, what is Soil Alpin?
*Done. A brief description of Siol Alpin is right there in the sentence you selected, and the article for Siol Alpin is wiki-linked as well. Siol Alpin refers to a number of clans who have been thought to descend from Alpin, father of the king Cináed mac Ailpín.--Celtus (talk) 11:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Review

message: "The 19th century historian W. F. Skene named the clan as one of the seven clans of Siol Alpin – who according Skene could all trace their ancestry back to Alpin, father of Cináed mac Ailpín."
"According to Sken" should be set off with commas. Also, what is Soil Alpin?
*Done. A brief description of Siol Alpin is right there in the sentence you selected, and the article for Siol Alpin is wiki-linked as well. Siol Alpin refers to a number of clans who have been thought to descend from Alpin, father of the king Cináed mac Ailpín.--Celtus (talk) 11:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: "Macfie was one of the principal leaders in Macdonald's rebellion against the Government who had promised Islay to the Campbells."
Put a comma after "Government".
*Done.--Celtus (talk) 12:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fall of the clan

message: "Finally in 1623 Malcolm Macfie was pursued to the south-western corner of the island and taken by the MacDonalds."
Comma after "Finally" and "1623".
*Done.--Celtus (talk) 12:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Last in a line of chiefs

message: "In 1968 Earle Douglas MacPhee of Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada started a movement to have the Clan Macfie officially registered with the Lord Lyon."
Comma after the year.
*Done.--Celtus (talk) 12:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The modern clan

message: OK, the article goes down hill here. These section are rather short, and I think maybe "Crest badge and clan badge" could be put better (maybe in a userbox?). Also, I think that "Associated names" could be eliminated.
*I have no idea how to make an infobox. Is not having the whole article in paragraph form a major problem? I think the way the clan badge info is presented is ok, because there is space to show how other clans share the same badge (Siol Alpin and Clan Cameron - which have already been shown to have been associated with the clan). I don't think there would be enough space to easily show that in an infobox. Atleast wihout going to footnotes, and most people aren't going to read those.--Celtus (talk) 12:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Clan profile

message: Also, what makes these links reliable?
* (you use that reference way too much, by the way)
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
* (this link is broken)
*
*
:*1 - The official Clan Macfie website. The reason why it likely seemed as if this ref was being used too much was because of the 43 times it was used for the Associated names section. These 43 refs have been switched for one footnote (it looks less cluttered now anyways).
:*2 - Not sure. This website has an e-text of A Description of The Western Islands of Scotland, by Martin Martin. I will look for something on GoogleBooks.
:*3 - collectbritain.co.uk is a digital archive website of the British Library. Reliable.
:*4 - Not sure why this website would be considered unreliable. It is an massive website on Scotland, and is used in many Scottish related articles on Wikipedia. The ref used is for a citation from A Description of the Western Isles of Scotland Called Hybrides, by Sir Donald Monro. I will look through GoogleBooks for another source though.
:*5 - ambaile.org.uk is website associated with the Highland (council area). I don't think there is any reason to consider it unreliable. The ref is just used to show when the particular image was first published, since the pic i used was from a book published in 1900, but McIan first published this image around 1848 (this isn't even remotely controversial).
:*6 - The official Burkes Peerage website. Definitely reliable for info on people with titles and the like. It lists all the recognised Scottish clan chiefs, and even the Commander of Clan Macfie.
:*7 - The Mcduffie DNA project website. Closely associated, and sanctioned with Clan Macfie. The most reliable site to get details on their DNA project.
:*8 - Peronal website - an issue. But this ref is just for the blazon of the crest within the crest badge. This was the only ref which i could find that actual spelt out the blazon. You can easily see what the crest looks like by visiting the Clan Macfie website and this blazon is obviously the correct blazon. A demi-lion rampant, proper = see Charge (heraldry) for demi-lion (a lion with "only the forward half of a beast is shown"), rampant ("standing on left hind foot other feet raised to fight"), see Tincture (heraldry) for proper (in this case proper means the lion is red). I just searched google for another site to get a ref for this blazon and found this - http://www.celticstudio.com/CelticStudio/database/clans/079.htm - which doesn't appear to be a personal website.
:*9 - The official Clan Cameron website. A good place to find information on the clan badge of Clan Cameron. (fixed link).
:*10 - Website of Clan Maclean Atlantic Canada, a Clan MacLean association website. It is one of the two association websites linked from the main Clan MacLean website (maclean.org). Couldn't actually find a ref for the clan badge on the main website.
:*11 - The official Clan Cameron website. The best source for an official list of Clan Cameron associated names and septs.--Celtus (talk) 12:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Clan Macfie is a Scottish clan, officially registered with Lyon Court since 1981. "
What is the Lyon Court? 
*I changed this into two sentences: Clan Macfie is a Scottish clan. Since 1981, the clan has been officially registered with the Court of the Lord Lyon, which is the heraldic authority of Scotland.--Celtus (talk) 07:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: "Martin, in his A Description of the Western Isles of Scotland of 1703, wrote that on the south side of the church of St. Columba on Oronsay, were the tombstones of MacDuffie and the cadets of his family."
This is the first mention of "MacDuffie". Why is he relevant to the clan? Or perhaps I should say, you should mention that the surname is linked to the Macfie surname, as I think that is the explanation. But for an unknowing reader, Macduffie and Macfie don't seem related at all.
* OK. I changed this setence to: Martin, in his A Description of the Western Isles of Scotland of 1703, wrote that on the south side of the church of St. Columba on Oronsay, were the tombstones of MacDuffie (or Macfie, a former chief of the clan) and the cadets of his family.--Celtus (talk) 08:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: "During this time the two feuded and it seems Macfie was chased across the island as several of his apparent hiding places bear his name."
It seems? Are you not sure? In which case, I think you can take it out if you're not sure.
*I used "seems" because of the way the source phrased it - judging from the placenames that Macfie was chased across the island. I have reworded this and a few sentences. One new ref appears to be a personal website, but it is only used for an English translation of the hiding place "leab' fhalaich Mhic a Phì" which the main ref for the paragraph actually doesn't translate.
"According to the clan's website, the chief was then tied to a stone and summarily shot."
Do you need to say "according to the clan's website"?
*Done. It was used it to distinguish this from the lore described in the previous sentences. I have removed it.--Celtus (talk) 08:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Last in a line of chiefs

message: "An account of Macphee was recorded in Gaelic gatherings, or the Highlanders at Home on heather, river and loch and Place-Names of Glengarry and Glenquoich."
What was the account recorded in? A book, a document, or what?
* They are both books, and were mentioned in the references i used, but now i wonder if this really needs to be included at all. I will just remove this sentence.
"Macphee was said to have been an able soldier but he soon deserted the Army and fled to his native Glengarry, where he hid living in Feddan with his sister."
You say he feld to Glengarry, but lived in Feddan?
*Feddan is place located in Glengarry. I made a footnote giving a definition of what Feddan means in Gaelic and a reference to it on the Clan Cameron website.--Celtus (talk) 08:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Macphee the outlaw

message: "In 1864 the first Macfies to have a registered Coat of Arms were Robert Macfie of Langhouse and Airds and Robert Andrew Macfie of Dreghorn, when their Arms were registered in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland."
Comma after the date.
* Done.--Celtus (talk) 08:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The modern clan

message: "Scottish crest badges are used by clan members to show their allegiance to their clan and chief. Much like clan tartans, crest badges owe their popularity to Victorian romanticism. Crest badges are heraldic badges which usually contain the heraldic crest of the clan chief, encircled with a buckle containing the chief's heraldic motto."
If there's a red link, fix it or unlink it.
* Removed two redlinks.--Celtus (talk) 08:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Clan profile

message: OK, here are some general comments:
*I really think that the "History" section doesn't really cover what it's supposed to. You give some names of random Macfies, and that's it. I (the reader) want to know about the clan. Like, what did the clan do? What about its leaders?
*I think that "Last in a line of chiefs" can be maybe just merged with "Fall of the clan".
*If Ewen Macphee needs his own sub-section, then he should probably have his own article then.
Noble Story (talk) 14:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I understand how the history is pretty thin, the article includes almost every last nugget of verifiable clan info i could come up with. I thought it was ok, from judging the websites on this clan, but now i see that really we could do a much better job with the history. It is too fragmented and could be filled out much better. The 'random Macfies' are obviously not random, but the most prominent members of the clan of their time. The sub-sections are to break down the article into easily digestible chunks. Thanks for criticisms and for spending the time improving the article.--Celtus (talk) 08:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Any advances on improving the history part. I'm hovering over whether to pass this or keep on hold. However, I think that the history section still needs to be improved. Noble Story (talk) 03:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I won't be able to get it much better in the next couple days, so i don't have a problem if you fail it. I'm certain this thing can be improved but not in a short while.--Celtus (talk) 07:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that would be best at this point... Noble Story (talk) 11:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: More comments

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thread_title:  Survey 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified