Talk:Baklava

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
*Support, as proposer. Maurice07 (talk) 23:33, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: :I am unsure how to format my comment so apologies if this breaks the page. I am confused why the article has a description box saying the place of origin was the Ottoman Empire where as the article text explains the origin of Baklava is from Assyria. Can someone explain or fix this discrepancy? I do not have an account to do so since the article is locked   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.176.117.241 (talk) 20:19, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think anyone knows for sure where phyllo dough was invented. We probably need to find several sources that meet WP:RS and attribute statements to the authors. I wouldn't normally do this, but I'm copying an old section from the archives below: Dougweller (talk) 15:16, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

text: It doesn't matter this article shouldn't state Turkic origin is the only possibility Perry is not the only scholar in the world who is reliable therefore changing it is necessary. Vryonis Speros who states that baklava has Greek origins. Vryonis is a Byzantine Professor who can read Ottoman Turkish and Medieval Greek. Source: The Decline of Medieval Hellenism in Asia Minor and the Process of Islamization from the Eleventh Through the Fifteenth Century by Vryonis Speros Jr. also there is an excerpt taken from Delights from the Garden of Eden: A Cookbook and a History of the Iraqi Cuisine written by Nawal Nasrallah. As far as I have been able to ascertain, Nasrallah is not a serious academic, however, his ideas are interesting. It should also be noted that Perry has read and translated al-Baghdadi, which Nasrallah uses as a source. Nareklm 07:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah man we need all the help we can get ;-) Nareklm 19:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of Baklava 

message: The quality of the sources used in the baklava article has often been discussed, so I thought I'd write down some thoughts on the subject....
The Wikipedia policies WP:No original research and WP:Verifiability require that we use WP:Reliable sources in articles (I'd strongly recommend editors read those policies carefully).
As with many subjects, this can be a challenge for food history.  There are many legends about food history (see, e.g. Croissant), and a lot of national pride attached to many foods. The legends tend to be perpetuated in cookbooks, newspaper columns, Web pages, and other non-scholarly sources.  Fortunately, for some foods at least, there are serious researchers who have looked into the history using good methods and sources and have published their results in reputable books and journals. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean that their conclusions are correct or definitive, but it gives some  degree of confidence. And if there are contradictory scholarly theories, WP policy says we report them.
The current baklava article contains all the scholarly theories that editors have found so far and reports on their conclusions.  Some editors have wondered why we should consider Perry as credible. Well, he's a scholar who has studied at Princeton and Berkeley; he has published a translation of al-Baghdadi's cookbook; he reads many of the relevant languages (Arabic, Turkish, Greek).  He publishes his work in reputable places, like Petits Propos Culinaires, the Oxford Symposium on Food & Cookery History, the Oxford Companion to Food, and books edited by serious academics (like the one in question). He makes cogent arguments based on direct study of the documents in question.  He references relevant secondary literature, even when it disagrees with him (like Vryonis and Koukoules, whom Vryonis references). Because he publishes in reputable places, he opens himself up to criticism, which means that there is an opportunity for rebuttal.  His article on baklava is well-reasoned. He doesn't have any (obvious) axe to grind or conflict of interest (e.g. he is not working for the Uzbek Ministry of Culture). He is cited by other articles on the subject. (e.g. "The Westernization of Iranian Culinary Culture", Iranian Studies 36:1:43)
Of course, if any of us find other solid sources, we should integrate them into the article. --Macrakis 20:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't matter this article shouldn't state Turkic origin is the only possibility Perry is not the only scholar in the world who is reliable therefore changing it is necessary. Vryonis Speros who states that baklava has Greek origins. Vryonis is a Byzantine Professor who can read Ottoman Turkish and Medieval Greek. Source: The Decline of Medieval Hellenism in Asia Minor and the Process of Islamization from the Eleventh Through the Fifteenth Century by Vryonis Speros Jr. also there is an excerpt taken from Delights from the Garden of Eden: A Cookbook and a History of the Iraqi Cuisine written by Nawal Nasrallah. As far as I have been able to ascertain, Nasrallah is not a serious academic, however, his ideas are interesting. It should also be noted that Perry has read and translated al-Baghdadi, which Nasrallah uses as a source. Nareklm 07:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah man we need all the help we can get ;-) Nareklm 19:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 2007 discussion on credible sources

message: Why do we need a introduction about what regional variations exist If we can get the exact same info by reading the section of each of these regional variations?
I think there shouldnt be a introduction, It is just repeating some info that is already stated in the individual sections of the countrys. Also, the Azerbaijani style baklava section is far too detailedx it should be as simplistic as the other ones. Its kinda Peacock.. 2003:EA:4F4F:CFC7:DA1:BDD5:6C9D:3113 (talk) 02:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to agree with you about the intro (and have already reduced it somewhat). I will try to find time later today to make a simplification. As for the Azerbaijan section, it really is very detailed, but I am not so sure I am the right person for that task, since I am unfamiliar with the Azeri baklava. I will take a look, though. --T*U (talk) 10:41, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regional Variations part 

message: Patrick Faas part claims placenta is of Latin origin, I know that we are just quoting him, but it doesnt fit in with any other information presented in this part. Everything else explains how Its of Greek origin and its warliest mention in greek. Cato named them recipes in Greek tradtion accprding to this article, so how can someone claim it being of Latin origin If cato himself names the recipes „Greek Tradition“ and If we got eatlier mentions of placenta? 2003:EA:4F4F:CFA3:B921:8949:80FC:96A1 (talk) 19:30, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patrick Faas in Placenta Part 

message: @Wikaviani why dont u accept my edits? They are all sourced and the structure parts are logical. I also formulated the Placenta part way better and added new sources and context. 2003:EA:4F4F:CFA3:B921:8949:80FC:96A1 (talk) 19:33, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Who exactly is Caroline Meyer E. ? a food historian ? the Washington post is a newspaper, not an expert source about history. Not to mention, a random website (Jungle Jim's) which is all but what we would call a reliable source.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 19:38, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I didnt add the Caroline Meyer E. source, It existed before my edits and removing the junge jims source which I just added to show other sources saying the same which I wont do again you didnt name any other point for reverting my edits. Like one source that has nothing to do with all other edits I added doenst justify the reverting of all of my edits. 2003:EA:4F4F:CFA3:B921:8949:80FC:96A1 (talk) 19:44, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: You added a Greek origin for the placenta cake, that's not covered by any reliable source in the article as far as i can see.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 19:46, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: No I didnt. The Homers odyssey part isnt my work. The Greek poem part aboit plakous also isnt my work, I just formulated it differently so things are more clear and more source orientated. 2003:EA:4F4F:CFA3:B921:8949:80FC:96A1 (talk) 19:50, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

text: The Greek poem stated originally comes from Antiphanes as stated in the reverted and unreverted version of this page and existed before I touched this page. Antiphanes lived in the 5-4th century BC, I put it at nearly the top, because in this article it is the second oldest mention/recipe of placenta/plakous. Its for structure. 2003:EA:4F4F:CFA3:B921:8949:80FC:96A1 (talk) 19:53, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no such thing as "Most claim" a Greek origin, if I'm not mistaken. Besides, I don't get well how your version improved this article.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 19:57, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Then leave th most out and let that part be reverted to the original part or reformulate, but why u revert the parts even though they give a better structure(from oldest to most recent) and have sources(like the edit on the beginning part of this page) 2003:EA:4F4F:CFA3:B921:8949:80FC:96A1 (talk) 19:59, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Because some edits cannot be undone due to intermediate edits.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 20:02, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

text: Change lost to many If u want, but there are literially sources stating what I said and why this structure is better, like one of the sources which are also in the unreverted version of this edit:  2003:EA:4F4F:CFA3:B921:8949:80FC:96A1 (talk) 20:03, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to reinstall the parts of your edits that are well-covered by reliable sources, but please, do not add "sources" like Jungle Jim's.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 20:06, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, thank you 2003:EA:4F4F:CFA3:B921:8949:80FC:96A1 (talk) 20:08, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

text: This means that my structure makes sense and calling catos recipe the earliest detailed recipe make more sense than calling Catos recipe which are in a Greek tradtion according to Cato himself(also literially stated in the part right after catos recipe) than calling it the earliest recipe in general 2003:EA:4F4F:CFA3:B921:8949:80FC:96A1 (talk) 20:08, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why were my edits reverted? 

message: In Turkish, the translation of "look at that word" is "Bak lafa". Many Turkish dishes are called as if there are stories behind them. "imam fainted", and "woman's tight" are a couple of examples. Baklava was likely developed in the Ottoman kitchen and the name was distorted by time, turning into baklava. 73.223.0.150 (talk) 19:17, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: The article has this note at the top: 
::
I find it hard to believe that there is really any genuine confusion between the two terms. This seems like some sort of joke. I see no discussion in Talk archives. Thoughts? --Macrakis (talk) 21:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen restaurant menus make this mistake, but I'm not sure that counts. They are spelled similarly enough in English that someone might mix them up. - Sumanuil. (talk to me) 21:41, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Balaklava