Talk:Chicago-style Pizza

message: I removed the following paragraph:
The stuffed pizza is a signature dish of the city of Chicago, and can be difficult to obtain in other parts of the US. Though imitations and "deep-dish" style pizza are advertised throughout the country, it is often if not always lacking the same ingredients, consistancy and quality as the deep dish pizza found in Chicago. (Some claim that the crucial ingredient is in fact the water of Lake Michigan.) Thus, if you're looking to acquire some authentic Chicago-style taste, look no further than Giordano's, the original Pizzeria Uno in downtown Chicago, or any of dozens of smaller chains and individual proprietorships serving them up hot out of the oven. Tbat said, a number of other proprieters around the country do deserve honorable mention. Of these honorary Chicago-style pizza restaurants, perhaps the most noteable is legendary Zachary's pizza of Berkeley, California, which has been voted the best pizza in the Bay Area by the East Bay Express for 18 years running (as of 2005).
The whole paragraph was POV—basically free advertising for various pizza shops. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 14:55, May 1, 2005 (UTC)
::Might want to reconsider I have some information here that says this is the original chicago-style pizza restaurant we might be talking about.  I can vouch for Zach's as well, I lived in Emeryville for awhile and I have never seen anything like that in pizza.  They are monstrously thick.  --Rakista 06:26, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit note 

message: Some people should find more and more restaurants that serve Chicago-style pizza and should make a list of restaruants that serve it along with their locations. --SuperDude 03:28, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Your claim is tantamount to a fib.  Chicago style thin crust is a very thin and crispy crust, sometimes like a cracker crust if I may be so descriptive.  The square cuts have been the way it was served here since pizza first came here.  There is no proof St. Louis served it this way before Chicago.  What a fantastically ridiculous assertion.76.237.194.108 (talk) 01:21, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[List of restaurants that serve Chicago-style pizza]] 

message: I don't have the resources here being in Houston, Texas, but I would like to see a compiled list of restaurants who will ship Deep Dish pizzas.  Online sources are limited to those with decent websites and programmers, but I'm, sure other restaurants are out there.
NO SUCH THING AS "CHICAGO STYLE THIN CRUST" 
I removed the section of this article which described a "Chicago style thin pizza"  The reason is that this "style" of pizza was already common in other major world cities before it became popular in Chicago.  Thin crust pizza has never been distinctly a Chicago invention, even though it is commonly served there.  Thin crust could just as easily be called Philly, St. Louis, or Milwaukee style pizza.  There are literally thousands of places across the globe that offer this style thin crust (or flat pizza as it is nicknamed in Chicago) and none of them outside Chicago term it as "Chicago thin crust"  The flattened crust was a style of Italy, Sicily, and later New York City and has become the most common style pizza in nearly every U.S. city.  The square cuts were first seen in St. Louis style pizza.
::Your claim is tantamount to a fib.  Chicago style thin crust is a very thin and crispy crust, sometimes like a cracker crust if I may be so descriptive.  The square cuts have been the way it was served here since pizza first came here.  There is no proof St. Louis served it this way before Chicago.  What a fantastically ridiculous assertion.76.237.194.108 (talk) 01:21, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources of mail order

message: I was unaware that there was a specific type of thin crust pizza unique to Chicago, despite having lived there for 99% of my life. Perhaps It just never occured to me that thin crust pizza wasn't like that in other cities. It there a reference for this fact?Ace-o-aces 20:05, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You can also, due to its franchising, find deep dish pizza in Columbus too. So what's your point? American style pizza had to come from somewhere, regardless of its varying crust weights, and there is definitely a difference between what you'll find at Connie's (Chicago example) and Ray's (NYC example). One thing is for sure, Columbus certainly didn't invent the style. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 01:56, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

text: I have removed the section on thin crust. There is nothing unique about the way thin crust is prepared in Chicago, and the section had no source that made that claim. Speciate (talk) 07:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, Speciate, there is a difference, and it not up to you to make that call. I have restored the part you removed and if you plan to remove it again, take it up with Wikiproject Chicago first on the discussion page, because you're wrong on this.Ryecatcher773 (talk) 01:53, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: First off, I am from Chicago, and used to be quite active in the Chicago WikiProject. Second, I removed material that was poorly sourced. I have no objection is secondary sources can be found that explain what differentiates Chicago's thin pizza from the rest of the nation's. But the present sources are primary and unreliable, and I am WP:CHALLENGE ing them. Speciate (talk) 08:33, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is just one reference I found from a cursory search, detailing the difference between Chicago-style thin pizza and thin pizza found elsewhere. I can insert this and others into a revised section of the article shortly. riffic (talk) 18:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That book is younger than this Wikipedia article, and clearly borrowed from it (especially given that the author is not from Chicago). It is therefore not a WP:RS. I suggest finding something older than this 2004 edit. By the way, I want to believe that there is a distinctive style, I am just more attached to Wikipedia's objectivity than I am to a slightly thicker of tomato sauce. Speciate (talk) 05:04, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thin crust 

message: Seriously, WTF?  Some person keeps trying to claim that Chicago thin crust is "commonly known as tavern pizza."  This is simply not true.  Why would a pizza joint call its pizza that?  It really doesn't make any sense, and I wish that person would stop doing that.  Pdpp 19:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Tavern Pizza"? 

message: Chicago Deep Dish is almost exclusively known (and famous for) having the tomato sauce on top.  The picture in the article should have a pizza with sauce on top.
        
*It's stuffed crust not the deep dish that has the sauce on the top. Though I do agree that the picture should probably be changed. Outside of Chicago there's a couple companies marketing "Chicago Style Pizza" as thick-crust pan-pizza-type things but that's not really what people in Chicago think of as Chicago-style (which would be stuffed or the south-side thin-crust style). It does raise the question though or what should be considered the definitive type of Chicago pizza. My vote goes for the stuffed crust. The deep-dish isn't really all that much different than Pizza Hut when you get right down to it (though saying so will make some Chicago residents scream); the thin-crust isn't much different from a New York thin-crust (again the screaming) but the stuffed crust w/ its inch-of-cheese pizza/casorole nature is really unique.
**Well, I've had the original deep-dish pizza at Pizzeria Due, and it certainly had sauce on the top. It's also standard procedure in every recipe I've ever seen -- if you don't put the sauce on the top it makes the crust soggy and turns the filling into lava. As for what the "definitive" Chicago pizza, I've spent a total of five days of my life in Chicago, but I am under the impression that "Chicago-style" actually refers to at least three different varieties of pizza, of which deep-dish is by far the most prominent thanks to the franchising efforts of Pizzeria Uno. Haikupoet 04:08, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed, but it's still kinda weak.  C'mon, cheese pizza?  WTF?  Pdpp 20:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually, it is a garlic pizza. Shsilver 21:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo 

message: This brings up a useful distinction: which is more encyclopedic, the "Chicago style pizza" that Chigago natives would recognize or the "Chicago style pizza" that most of the United States would recognize? We should clearly discuss both, but I think the more widely used definition should be the focus of the article, even if Chicago residents might find that distasteful (just as distasteful as a New Englander might find "New England clam chowder" as defined by a mid-westerner, but I can't say that their definition isn't encyclopedic). -Harmil 15:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Chicago style variations

message: The thin-crust photo is the real problem. First, it's an image of less than 1/3 of the original pizza, and it's a pretty poor photo at that. There's also a dispute over the image copyright tagging. Can someone photograph a real thin-crust with one piece taken out to show thickness in whatever cutting style is typical (e.g. square if that's what is used). -Harmil 15:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed, but it's still kinda weak.  C'mon, cheese pizza?  WTF?  Pdpp 20:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually, it is a garlic pizza. Shsilver 21:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo of thin crust

message: I've never heard Chicago style pizza (deep dish or otherwise) ever refered to as "A pie" which is another note that may differentiate Chicago style pizza(s) from other types. Should this be added?
:That's true, but it's a local usage thing, rather than intrinsic to the pizza. Fijagdh 09:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Use of the word pie

message: I work at Fasanos pizza of the south side, and have been a lover of pizza all my life... I'm hesitant to edit anything(afraid to mess anything up), but I think this is an interesting fact that isn't put on this wiki.
Chicago is famous for Deep Dish pizzas, but through my experience, the thin crust pizza out-sells it in Chicago by a very wide margin. On a Friday night, we'll make over 600 pizzas, and out of them, maybe 10 are deep dish. We maybe make 10 stuffed pizzas in a whole week. Even at parties and such, people are more likely to order the thin crust. Also, I've never ever heard of it being called "flat" pizza. That must be something people outside of Chicago call it.
Deep Dish pizza is more expensive than the Thin Crust. I definately eat more thin Crust, but to me it is a special treat to eat a deep dish or a stuffed pizza. They are very very good, it's just the whole price issue with me. I don't know about anyone else though.
Also on the deep dish...
"On the usual pizza, about a pound of cheese is used. Then a layer of seasoned crushed tomatoes goes on top and the pizza is baked to completion."
This is not a very common practice, hardly the usual pizza. Most deep dishes don't use a pound of cheese... A stuffed pizza maybe, but not a deep dish.
"Deep-dish pizza is often eaten with a knife and fork, since its thick gooeyness makes it messy to eat with the fingers."
This is also false. Deep Dish pizza is eaten like any regular pizza. Stuffed pizzas are the ones eaten with knives. Whoever wrote the deep dish part of the article must have had stuffed and deep dish pizza confused or something.
I have to say though, the stuffed pizza part of the article accurately displays a technique to making a stuffed pizza. Where I work, we don't use a special pan for Stuffed though, we just fold the top dough under the bottom dough. They are probably the hardest pizza to make, but they are very tasty.
Anyway, I know this is irrelevent, but Chicago pizza is great. It is the top on my list of reasons never to move away from Chicago.
:I am also a longtime citizen of Chicago and I know the difference between stuffed and deep dish pizza. I HAVE in fact eaten deep-dish pizza with a knife and fork, and most people I know eat it this way. However, you CAN eat deep dish like a regualr pizza if you are so inclined, (and not wearing your good clothes) Ace-o-aces 17:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't Fasano's on Roberts Road in Justice and thus in the southwest suburbs?  Not exactly Ashburn or Mt Greenwood.  Not that I'm really disputing your claim to being on the south side.  I'm originally from Justice, grew up thinking of myself as a South Sider, and seeing this put a little smile on my face--if it's the same Fasano's it was what we ate growing up when we didn't want to go as far as Casciani's on Joliet Road. Bkalafut (talk) 08:42, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  As a citizen of Chicago, and a pizza maker 

message: The Nancy's that is mentioned in this article is not the "real" Nancy's. It's a chain that took their name. The real Nancy's is a single restaurant on York road, south of Grand Ave. They are the acclaimed deep-dish makers. This is akin to the "Real Famous Ray's" phenomenon in New York. --76.217.84.153 16:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nancy's pizza 

message: I just ate at Due in April 2007 and the cheese is most certainly underneath of the toppings. The cheese is placed on the dough, underneath of both the sauce and toppings.
I suggest you go there yourself ;-) and edit the article accordingly.
For the record, it is amazing pizza and was open at 1am on Easter Monday - a true blessing!
76.211.230.103 01:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What kind of pizza did you order?  Was it a thin crust (in which case, yes, the cheese would be under the toppings. Shsilver 02:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong Information:  Pizzeria Uno and Due 

message: Maybe I'm wrong, but I had the impression that Chicago-style pizza crusts are typically made with a dough recipe similar to what Americans call "biscuits" and Brits call "scones" -- which is to say a "quick dough," leavened with baking powder instead of yeast. Can any Chicago natives confirm or deny?
Throbert McGee 05:02, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The pizza places I've worked at in Chicago have used a yeast-based dough. Shsilver 22:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A second on that; the pizza places I've worked at in Chicago never used anything but yeast to leaven dough, and that includes both thin crust and deep dish.--76.237.197.27 (talk) 00:07, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Yeast-raised vs. "biscuit" dough?

message: The intro to this article says that deep-dish pizza "features a buttery crust," but the section on deep-dish pizza describes the crust as "made with olive oil and cornmeal." Which is it? If you mean to say that the olive oil gives the crust a particularly rich texture, someone should find a better wording that doesn't imply the presence of butter. Pedantically yours, FreplySpang 00:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Buttery? Olive-oily? 

message: Stuffed pizza is not usually made with a layer of dough on top. Matter of fact it is identical to the deep dish pictures of the pizza's posted in the article. Some restaurants add a layer at the top...but the more famous one's in Chicago like Giordano's the restaurant credited in the article as popularizing the recipe does not.  Here is a link to the website's stuffed pizza page, and as you can see in the picture, there is no layer of crust on the top , just tomato sauce. 
69.209.205.81(talk) 02:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In a stuffed pizza, tomato sauce goes on top of the upper level of crust so the upper level isn't visible.Shsilver (talk) 15:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stuffed pizza 

message: Having been born and raised in Chicago and growing up on bi-monthly pizza orders my whole life, I, and pretty much every Chicagoan I know who watches the Food Network, are certainly surprised
to find that everyone thinks we eat pan or deep dish pizza and that this is "Chicago pizza."  90% of the pizza Chicagoans order is Chicago-style thin crust, which is thin and crispy, very close to a pizza you would order in Rome, Italy.  The "deep dish" or pan pizza is reserved for special occasions, once a year or less.  It's pretty annoying to hear New Yorkers criticize "Chicago pizza" thinking we eat that huge casserole dish all the time.  We are more thin crust lovers than anything.--69.209.231.7 (talk) 02:34, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you read the article, there is a section devoted to Chicago thin crust pizza.  But yes, generally when people outside Chicago talk about Chicago-style pizza, they are referring to stuffed or deep dish because that is more difficult to find outside Chicago.Shsilver (talk) 13:25, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  We eat Thin Crust in Chicago 

message: Why is there a reference to "flat pizza" supported by a cite to a UTAH magazine purporting to describe how we speak here?  The article seems to use a restauranteur's "flat pizza" description of the pizza as a marketing tool.  "Thin crust" is how this pizza is described in Chicago. If flat is used, as contended by a few users above, at least cite to a reputable source, preferably a Chicago-based source or a reknowned expert on Chicago cuisine lingo usage.--76.237.197.27 (talk) 23:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: On second blush, it appears that the Utah-based journalist is the one referring to Chicago-style thin-crust as "flat pizza."  Editors who support inclusion of a "flat" description, please find a valid reference or I'll remove the "flat" claim in the interest of accuracy and not spreading misinformation. Thanks...--76.237.197.27 (talk) 00:04, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No feedback, so the poor reference was removed.  Thin crust is generally and exclusively described as thin-crust in Chicago pizza parlance.  Having worked in the industry, I would love to see a valid Chicago reference to "flat" pizza.  It is not used in pizzerias in Chicago.  Perhaps in Utah it is, but not in Chicago.--69.209.230.189 (talk) 23:45, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've also worked in Chicago pizza places and frequently have heard thin crust referred to as "flat" pizza. Added in with another reference. The term also shows up in numerous blogs, which are generally not considered verifiable, but in this case they would serve to verify the fact that the term is in common usage. Shsilver (talk) 01:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but your link to Buzzle is an almost word-for-word copy of Wikipedia's own article.  That is not proper referencing.  Furthermore, the other reference you provided was by a Leah Zeldes who presents her opinion as fact; she insistd that "misguided Southsiders" believe Chicago-style thin crust is Chicago pizza, and unabashedly has this weird deep dish bias, going so far as to characterize our thin crust as "cardboard" and "greasy" (read her article).   You have to do better than citing to Wikipedia itself as a reference, and this Zeldes' opinion.  And you are correct, blogs are not verifiable and pretty much opinion.  I wouldn't cite to one even in emergencies on an encyclopedia.  So, thus far you've only given Zeldes' op-ed piece with a pro-deep dish bias to back up "flat."  Geez, she shamelessly uses the word flat as a means to disparage, not describe.  I will delete these references and the flat description for the sake of accuracy, but I am interested in you finding something reputable.  I'm for encyclopedic accuracy, and less for my strong inclination to say "flat" is so fringe that it is not even worthy of mention in this article.  Please find something more reputable to cite as a reference soon.  Thanks,--69.209.230.189 (talk) 02:21, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong.  I'm providing evidence that the term is used, whether you like it or not. Every instance of its appearsnce in a blog or in Zeldes's article proves the term is used. You just refuse to accept any evidence of its use. And your own biases are even more evident than anything that Zeldes, who is a professional restaurant critic has stated. I've provided verifiable links and there are links above in the comment page to demonstrate the term is used.  You just can't accept that the term is used. What you're claiming is that while it is used, it isn't correct, which is something else entirely. Shsilver (talk) 03:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Rific, I wholeheatedly agree.  The user abover, Shsilver, is engaged in grasping to support his edits.  Simply citing to another website's original research does not somehow make it valid.  Use of the word "flat" should be backed up by pizzeria parlance, or from a plethora of reputable Chicago sources.  Nothing he referenced so far say it is referenced like this.  Indeed, several Chicagoans above, including pizza makers contend that the term is not used. The inclusion of "flat" in this article is original research, and is an attempt to imply that Chicagoans have a "pizza duality" in their minds, including deep dish and flat.  Nothing can be further than the truth.  This is an encyclopedia, not a blog.  If you cannot find a reputable website (aside from Buzzle, which copies Wikipedia...nice try) that flatly (no pun intended) states that this term is used in Chicago, then this will be deleted over and over again, and undoubtedly lead to edit wars by people who are more interested in the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia than as a means to innovate or lend credence to ideas.  I have again reverted, waiting for some reputable, verifiable cites.--69.209.224.202 (talk) 00:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor "flat pizza" reference 

message: Why is pan pizza included in this article? Its inclusion here presents it as something from Chicago or something that Chicago people eat, when it's a very different food product from any type of pizza that could be called Chicago-style. Pan pizza is conventionally-topped pizza with a thick bread-like dough. I'm from Chicago, and I've only ever seen pan pizza from national chain restaurants. Why is it on this page?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.4.198.41 (talk) 03:40, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent question!  Without objection, it should be omitted.IDoIndeedMissFrates (talk) 22:46, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, a surprising amount of the information in this section of the article is unsourced and should be removed.IDoIndeedMissFrates (talk) 23:02, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree that it doesn't really belong in this article. However, it's still a distinct and somewhat well-known style of pizza, so the information should probably be moved elsewhere. A search for "pan pizza" yields 19 page results. I'd say the former section should be moved to its own article, with links updated appropriately. Currently, deep dish pizza and deep pan pizza both redirect here, while pan pizza redirects to the main pizza article.  Erp Erpington (talk) 08:19, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pan Pizza 

message: Is it true that Chicago-style pizza originates from Sicilian pizza or sfincione? That's something that I read on the page about Sicilian pizza, in particular on the talk section, and I was wondering if Chicago-style pizza is really a spin-off or if it is an overall different kind of pizza. For example, are they both baked in a pan? Do they both share a high cornicione (i.e. the outer edge of the pizza)? Is the pizza dough made with the same ingredients? I think all this should be taken into account to establish the differences between Chicago-style pizza and Sicilian pizza, I think they basically share a thick crust and a tomato topping but, aside from that, they look pretty different from each other.--Teno85 (talk) 12:28, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does Chicago-style pizza originate from Sicilian pizza?