Talk:École Polytechnique massacre/Archive 3

message: Sometimes I feel like our featured articles are so "fluffy" and I feel like this topic is so not and the article has come so far, I just decided to take the plunge.  I've never nommed an FAC before, so it's possible that all that will happen is a bunch of construction criticism.  But the primary contributors to this article have been so diligent about responding to criticism well I believe that will only make the article better.  So let's see what happens! If it goes badly, blame me...;)  Dina 00:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: So I went ahead and nominated it for featured status

message: What's the convention for accents on "Quebec" and "Montreal"? Or if there is no established convention, which is the least likely to get messed with: sans ou avec? Just to make it consistent. bobanny 16:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question: This search seems to imply that Montreal is only accented when part of a French phrase, as in: "The Université de Montréal, University of Montreal in English,...".  Though I expect it is consistency that matters most. Dina 16:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Accents

message: One of the editors on the FAC suggested that the into paragraph needed expansion.  Since a great deal of the article is about the aftermath, societal impact and interpretations of the event, perhaps another sentence or two about those issues would be appropriate? Dina 17:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bobanny is good at this sort of thing. --Slp1 18:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ah, Rlevse is on it, I've dealt with him before. He's a stickler for technical details and makes you work for FA (but in a positive, constructive way). I think maybe regarding his "listy" comment, that the sections need to flow more from one to the other, instead of discrete chunks. I don't have time right now, but will try and put some work into it soon. bobanny 18:31, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, yeah.  I was thinking after my initial response that perhaps he meant things like the Aftermath section, where there are a lot of one-sentence paragraphs each detailing a different event.  I sort of like it though, as it gives a good sense of a variety of events happening in quick sucession.  However good feedback can only be good for the article. Dina 18:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pop-cult references sections are despised by a lot of editors. In this case though, I don't see that stuff being integrated into the main text, nor does it merit a separate list, so I'm fine with it. bobanny 18:54, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is quite like old times!  I rather agree that it was a bit choppy and have taken a pass at making things flow better, including putting some sentences together in short paragraphs.  But the problem is that I know it all too well now, so other brains required. --Slp1 18:59, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

text: If the pop culture list is an issue, it could probably be shortened considerably without a great loss.  I think Anorak and the Tragically Hip song should stay, but perhaps some of the other music references could go. Dina 19:01, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: FAC feedback

message: I support square, mostly because there already seems to have been one person confused into thinking that this was the "place" where the events took "place".  Though place is prettier. Dina 19:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really care, but the memorial is actually a very long thin strip of trees and grass at a rather complex intersection.  In Montreal there are Carrés such as Carré St-Louis, and even Squares (with a french pronunciation) such as in Square-Victoria. These are more traditional type squares. So I would be included to stick to Place as being the better translation and more descriptive too. --Slp1 19:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't particularly care either and I'm not convinced that the French idiom "Place du..." is all that unfamiliar to the majority of English speakers.  So unless there are other objections, Place should probably stay. Dina 19:22, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just recently went through a Wiki-Ordeal over category names for "squares," and learned far more about the subject than I ever thought possible in the process. "Square" is English, "place" (and occasionally "carre") is French, "piazza" in Italian, and "plaza" in Spanish are all the same thing. That thing, however, changes dramatically in different historical and geographical contexts, and ranges from a small park (eg, Carre St. Louis and Tompkins Square Park, a big intersection like Times Square, the public space at the foot of a skyscraper (Place Ville Marie or Granville Square, etc., not to mention all the shopping malls that use these names. Plaza can now be considered English, but I don't think "place" can be with this meaning (although streets are often called "place" in English). That said, I haven't seen "Place" translated for a place name anywhere ("Place Ville-Marie" = "Mary Town Square" anyone? not likely). All this is just to say that I think either "square" or "place" is acceptable, and that it's probably the "du" that rings foreign to the Anglo ear rather than "Place" in this context. Square-Victoria is probably a Montrealism, given it's a mix of French and English (see :Category:Squares in Paris for a comparison: mostly "Place" but the name is not translated in the articles). bobanny 00:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well place sounds a tiny bit odd in this context, but it's not like there's no precedent in English -- Melrose Place anyone? Granted, that's a building and not a plaze, but the usage is basically the same.  Dina 13:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Place du 6-Décembre-1989 (December 6, 1989 Square)

message: An IP address added a "terrorist infobox" in the last few hours.  I am not sure that such a "terrorist" box is really appropriate for this attack, though the summary of information was quite good.  I have removed it temporarily while others given their opinions. Here is how it looked   Part of my reasoning was that the timings given were wrong according to the sources, and also the "motive" section is likely to be controversial and would need discussion first.    --Slp1 11:18, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your removal.  While summaries of this kind can be useful, part of the whole issue with this incident is that things like "motives" are sometimes unclear after an event.  I'm not sure such a simplistic summary adds much. Dina 13:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionally, someone removed the photo of the new Ecole building.  While I am a bit sad to see it go, as it was a pretty good pic, I believe it is the case that this is not where the shootings took place, and so their rationale for removing it it fair.  However does anyone think it's possible to replace it with a different caption (the interior of the ecole today?) or with a photograph (if findable) of the building at the time?  Dina 13:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Re photo, I was disappointed too.  I looked hard for free photos and added what was available. But I am going to try and take some photos myself today, and we can see if they are of any use. --Slp1 17:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay so I have done my best with the pics. I have uploaded other pictures of the cafeteria  (but too many people in it?), and a corridor   and I have a few others not uploaded, (escalator, stairwell etc) but it is hard to know whether they would help or hinder. If anybody has some ideas of how to arrange and place them better (or add, substract or swap) I would be thrilled. Slp1 00:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the new photos! Dina 17:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: Ecole Polytechnique massacre does not exist as a redirect, can someone create it? 132.205.44.134 16:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. --Elliskev 16:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ecole Polytechnique massacre 

message: While I still somewhat dispute that this expression can't be considered English, I went ahead and changed it to "galvanizing incident".  On closer read of the various definitions of the phrase, they all seem to emphasis legal case, so using the strictest definition of the term, it does not quite make complete sense in that sentence anyway.  I also took the liberty of changing "for the women's movement" to "for the Canadian women's movement" because I believe that is more accurate.  I do not, for instance, believe that the incident was a cause celebre for the American women's movement  and so I think the distinction is valuable.  But please remove if you think its redundant with the rest of the text there.  Cheers. Dina 18:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Cause célèbre]]

message: Following from Slp1's sentiment above, I also thought that the sections needed some re-jigging. I decided to be bold and did some shuffling. It began well, but alas, it's late now and I'm afraid I've lost my judgment/perspective on this for today. Some things are still separated that should maybe go together, and the subheadings might make it more disjointed-looking than before. I also did more copyediting, and resized the Vancouver memorial photo and made it right justified so that section takes up less space (I checked it on Mozilla and it looks okay). A couple things methinks need expansion: 1) the gun control policy stuff was more far-reaching than it comes across here. The on-going debate about the gun registry should probably get a mention, perhaps something from here. 2) A little something about what the recommendations were in the 1993 "Changing the Landscape" report also needs to be said, since it was raised. bobanny 11:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at the gun politics is fascinating.  My only real exposure to gun politics in Canada was from Bowling for Columbine, where the argument seemed to be that Canada had a lot of weapons, but much less crime. The gun registry debate -- are we talking simply about having all guns owners needing to be licensed and have a permit for their weapon?  In other words, pretty much the way it is in the U.S. (as I'm sure all you Law and Order fans know)  This was not the case in 1989, right?  Looking at Gun politics in Canada then, it appears that the phrase "a legally-obtained" semi-automatic rifle (from the first paragraph) means simply that Lepine had to comply with Bill C-51 that required him to get an FAC to acquire the weapon & pass a basic criminal check.  This is interesting stuff, but I'm not sure I understand the practical distinction between needing a license to acquire a weapon and needing one to possess one.  Has there been any writings on whether or not, had these newer laws existed at the time, Lepine would still have been able to legally acquire his weapon? Dina 14:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you did a great job, Bobanny, and I like the sub-headings.  The Vancouver pic looks fine on my Firefox too! I have moved a few other things around and CliffC has restored the Controversy heading. I also agree about expanding the gun control and women's stuff, and I will attempt the Changing the Landscape too, since I am a bit foggy about gun control.  But FYI Dina, I think the thing with the gun registry is that all guns have to be registered, not the owners, so that any guns you might have inherited etc are now on a list and not just new purchases. --Slp1 14:30, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a bit, but I want to make sure I'm handling the opposition to gun control with the correct amount of weight, so please review.  The article I (by a former minister of justice) specifically makes the claim that the legislation was inspired by this Massacre, so I think that makes it a relevant cite here, whether or not the language of the text is changed.  Dina 17:05, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a bit more on the gun registry. I think it also provides a political link between this massacre and other school shootings. I also added a little more about the government panel on violence against women. I'm satisfied now that there aren't any more glaring omissions, and over-all think this article rawks out. I'll come back in a few days with fresh eyes and check for any technical errors, but I don't see anything to prevent this becoming featured. Good work, y'all. bobanny 22:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it is looking very good. After the cause celebre of cause celebre, I am scared of asking what "rawks" means though! I noticed that we don't have ref for the criticism of the women's panel thing, and it would be good to add it, no?  BTW I may find it  difficult to get internet access this week, so leave things in your tender care! --Slp1 13:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The criticism is conveniently mentioned in the report itself, so it is ref'd. bobanny 23:34, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I should have looked, but it seemed so unlikely! Sorry.--Slp1 00:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: reorganization

message: So an infobox reappeared a few days ago and I still don't like it, though maybe there are ways and means to live with it.  My big problems are: the picture of the plaque is now so small that one can't read the names which kinda ruins the point of the photo.  We've lost "motive" but have "target(s)" instead, which now says the Ecole Polytechnique as the target, which is a bit debatable, as I would say it is the location, really.  Thoughts? --Slp1 13:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't like it either. It doesn't really add anything, and even detracts from the article, as you point out. It's also weird to categorize this as a terrorist attack (it's a terrorism infobox). Sure it was an act of terror and yes it was politically motivated. But Lepine wasn't part of an organized movement and even the wing-nuts haven't claimed it was part of a larger political strategy (the first, but also apparently the last, counterattack against feminism). bobanny 22:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am going to get rid of it then.  I checked other massacre articles of this genre and most of them don't have it, so let's wait till someone creates one that suits the event. --Slp1 22:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox