Talk:Grecomans

message: This is my "unsourced anti - Greek" propaganda!?! Jingby 11:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of them aren't even in English. Sources must be verifiable; we can't simply take your word for it, especially given your very specific agenda regarding the creation of this article in the first place. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I mean, all nations are new, but the Greek ethnic group isn't. Greek nationalism had as a goal to create a nation state for the Greeks just like many other major ethnic groups begun to have at the time. Trying to diminish the Greek identity because of this is illogical, same with trying to perceive such pejorative terms in such a way that tries to validate them without any real arguments all the while diminishing these people's identity. 85.75.213.201 (talk) 23:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Nothing cited here has anything to do the term, anthropologically or even historically. You just synthesize  (mostly from obscure and dubious sources) and apply a term to people (i.e. Arvanites, Aromanians, Karamanlides, Sarakatsani  etc) with any ethnolinguistic, cultural, historical or whatnot specificity. This is the definition of original research, to say the least.  --LapisExCoelis 22:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Shall we propose it for speedy deletion? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 23:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I saw this word used in books about Aromanians, reffering to those aromanians who preffered Greek-language education (as oppose to aromanian/romanian language education). It was indeed used as a pejorative term, but the word notion exist and it worth a Wikipedia article. We are not debating here if the position of those people was good or not.--MariusM 07:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Section talk

message: Guys, I'm rather unimpressed with the behaviour shown on both sides here. First off, can everybody please stop revert-warring over those "see also" links on Arvanites and the other related articles? I'm loath to protect them all, but I have half a mind blocking whoever continues reverting there without proper discussion.
And now let's discuss, here, please. What's the issue?
1) Should there be an article about the term "Grecoman"? (Personally, I don't see why there shouldn't.)
2) Is the current article satisfactory? (Personally, I'd still say the sourcing is not very good - we basically still have no reliable source actually focussing on the term and discussing it in any depth; what are its origins? What's the linguistic etymology and meaning of the "-man" suffix? Who first called whom by that term? Did it always have the same ideological connotations? etc. - We only have sources confirming in passing that the term was used in some situation or other.)
3) If we can agree that the article as such is legitimate, then why should or shouldn't the "see also" links exist? (Personally, I see no good reason not to have them; once it's been established that the topic of this article overlaps with those, then why not link between them?)
To Jingiby: Please don't just throw out-of-context quotes at us from each and every article that happens to mention the term somewhere. What exactly are you trying to show with your quotations? If you mean the fact that there were population groups of non-Greek-speaking origin who opted to become part of the Greek nation, then there's no need for debate, I don't think anybody is disputing that.
To the others: Please, if you want to continue opposing those "see also" links, be more specific about the objections you have. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article should focus on the term itself, as you rightly suggest. It should not be a lamentation of these people's "wrongful conversion" to Hellenism, as Jingiby would prefer: "The Grecomans are a product of Greek nationalistic propaganda." Each group has a distinct history, after all, which is why it is best left to their respective articles. Finally, adding this article to the "see also" section of Aromanians and Arvanites is the same as putting Kike or Yid at the bottom of Jew or Nigger at the bottom of African-American. It's just not on. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 12:19, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

text: This is a very POV source that tries to give validity to a very pejorative term in order to diminish the Greek identity of these people. It is almost ironic how many will try to claim the same of Greeks and not see how much they try with such non-arguments. 85.75.213.201 (talk) 00:01, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Wouldn't their anti-Greek hatred make them the antithesis of the "гъркомани"? According to the definition you yourself have provided, the term means "pretending to be Greek". The groups you refer to do nothing of the sort, they are consciously non-Greek if not anti-Greek in their orientation. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it necessary to tie this term with self-identifying or not self-identifying as Greek? In general it mean enculturation (dictionary: "the process whereby individuals learn their group's culture, through experience, observation, and instruction"). There are plenty of examples, even on wikipedia where persons have changed their self-declared ethnic group multiple times. It is easy to change that because it takes one word. Enculturation on the other hand happens only once. Mr. Neutron 14:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is about the pejorative epithet, which is only applied to those who have a Greek national consciousness. Those who don't would instead be regarded as unredeemed Bulgarian brothers by the Bulgarians, no doubt; they certainly wouldn't be the object of such derision. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  So what is this fuss about... 

message: If this article is deleted, then Bulgarisation is also to be deleted. Both are used pejoratively and are hate-terms. Compare with Hellenisation which is done to have a very positive meaning. I can list over a 100 of sources where Hellenisation is accompanied by killing of population of entire villages. Lantonov 16:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actions speak louder than words mate. I just want to see 100. Off you go. Read and learn. Kalambaki2 21:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Compare with [[Bulgarisation]]

message: In first place, thermin Grecomans is from "Macedonia action" times (from times of Bulgarian independent church - Egzarhia egsist in the end of XIX and earlier XX century before Balkan wars). Before that times all easternorthodox christian population in european Turkey (Ottoman empire) were under the greek Constantinople patriarch. After the begining of independent Bulgarian egzarkhat large percent of macedonian and trachian slavic population in that times without clean ethnic status after the big propaganda from Sofia over the opening of bulgarian churches and schools all over the european Turkey from Durres to Constantinople became "Bulgarians". From the others which didnt want to became part of egzarkhat call them "bulgaromans", "bulgarophiles", or mostly "bugarashi". Propaganda from Sofia was: that all slavic population in Turkey is bulgarian by nationality. Amongh the slavic and aromanian (wallach) population in Macedonia (areas of Monastiri-Bitolj, Ohrid, Resen, Kozani, Florina, Drama, Seres...) official Athens make new agitation movement against the bulgarian propaganda. From the other groops they were called "Grecomans"...In north and north-western part and valley of Vardar river (upper) of which is today FYROM lot of population have serbian ethnic fillings. Bulgaromans and Grecomans, called them "srbomans" "serbomans". Belgrade made agitation for serbs there. Opening schools and getting serbian priests in serbian (or serboman) villages. So, that period of ottoman Macedonia history is fool of propaganda and military actions  betwwen this tree groups. Bulgaroman partizans were mostly called "komiti", grecoman "andarti" and serboman "chetnici". Forth group were among part of Wallachian-aromanian villagers from Bucharest which government open romanian churches and schools. Belgrade, Athens and Bucharest had strong propaganda war between themselves, and all of groups had a propaganda and real military war against Sofia, egzarkhat and bugarashi - bulgarophili. Towsends of people die there in that times. All of this actions ended after the Balcan wars 1912-1913.  
* komitadji
* chetniks
* aromanian language - situation in greece (andarti - greek militia)
   
--Boris Godunov (talk) 15:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Ottoman Macedonian action

message: * Борба за Македонију, fight for Macedonia, serbian wikipedia (википедија)
* Гръцка въоръжена пропаганда в Македония, greek military propaganda in Macedonia, bulgarian wikipedia (Уикипедия)
* Μακεδονικός αγώνας, Macedonian question, greek wikipedia (Βικιπαίδεια)
* Istoria aromânilor, Perioada otomană history of Aromanians, ottoman period, romanian wikipedia 
* Struggle for Macedonia, english wikipedia
* Demographic history of Macedonia, english wikipedia
--Boris Godunov (talk) 16:02, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Some pages about this

message: Pyraechmes, please, provide reliable references about your strange statement, that the slavophone Greeks are not from Slavic origins. If no, I will revert you! Jingby (talk) 19:33, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Guys, i think you both misunderstood what this article is about. The previous version wasn't asserting anything about the origin of the people that were/are characterized as Grecomans. It just describes the context of its use. Pyraechmes i think your three additions are not nesessary, and it's not even accurate to assert that because they identify ethnically as Greeks today they are of Greek origin. They might have been of Greek or Slavic origin in the cultural/linguistic or ethnic sense, whatever (i'm not an anthropologist), we don't need to assert anything here.--Δρακόλακκος (talk) 10:48, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Pyraechmes what a strange theory, people that speak non-Greek language and follow non-Greek customs must be ethnically Greek. Hmm, very appropriate?, by your logic I am a Greek and dont know It, so I Jingiby and ever other user from the Balkans. PMK1 (talk) 13:28, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Except it is not just ethnic Macedonians that use the term "Grecoman". Bulgarians and Albanians use it too. Your point about "speculation" and "theories" is moot, since the term is used for people of perceived non-Greek origin. The fact is, people who use the term "Grecoman" in the real world use it to refer to people who identify as Greeks that they perceive are not of Greek origin (things that lead them to do this include mother tongue). This has to be reflected in the article. Whether it is right or wrong is not important, what actually happens is. BalkanFever 09:53, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh please. Grecoman is a widely used term in the Balkan language for people who pretend to be Greeks or who are seen by others as being non-ethnically Greek. The term is used in Aromanian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Romanian, Macedonian and Serbian. Similar articles are Bulgarophiles and Serbomans. This term is often used by many people when refering to a family which has a split ethnic identity. Some people might say the Grecoman side of the family while the other half identify as ethnic Macedonians. It is hard to see your point that they are "purely" ethnically anything, when half of the family thinks they are Greek and the other half think that they are Macedonian. People dont realise that one brother may identify as a "Greek" while the other brother identifies as a "Macedonian". PMK1 (talk) 09:03, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Pyraechmes what are you trying to prove? That people who had a non-Greek language, non Greek customs, many of whom originally belonged to a Church other than the Greek Orthodox one were Ethnic Greeks! By that assesment to, I am a Greek (I just dont know it yet!). There is an invisible line, North of which the population is exposed to their own propaganda and south of which the people are exposed to Greek propaganda. Yet ethnically we are the same people. PMK1 (talk) 12:24, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Pyraechmes, If that is what you truly believe you need to wake up, and stop listening to old folk tales and start reading history. PMK1 (talk) 20:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: POV