Talk:Christianity in China/Archive 1

message: I'm not sure I understand the statement;
"Today, the Chinese language typically divides Christians into two groups, members of Jidu jiao, (literally, Christianity) Protestantism, and members of Tianzhu jiao (literally "Lord of Heaven" religion), Catholicism (see Protestantism in China and Catholicism in China.)"
This seems to read that there are three divisions - Jidu jiao, Tianhu jiao and Catholisism.  Anyone care to elaboborate or clarify?
*Why do we not name the people instead the religion, it should read Assyrian members     of "Church of the East" not European or Middle-Eastern christian. This has to stop, name the People that spread christ message by thier real name, "Assyrian" belonging to the Church of the East.
--Esarhaddon 16:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Chinese religions

message: Should "Nestorianism in China" be properly called by some other name? Information on the Assyrian Church of the East suggests that the so-called "Nestorianism" in China was not actually Nestorianism. --Dpr 03:10, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a fair designation as that's what Westerners identify them as.  A better term might be Syriac Christianity,or Assyrian but that would be a project needing to coordinate across lots of wikipedia articles to get the terminology changed.   Minguo 14:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Nestorianism" in China 

message: If you have read Brother Yun's book, the Heavenly Man, you get a very different perspective of the torture and persecution Chinese Christians endure, I feel it is highly unlikely that this is all hoax, and that it deserves some serious emphasis in this article... even if it is regarded as "claimed".  I feel it is understated.  Any other opinions? Please contact me.  I don't want to make huge edits without opinion. Martianlostinspace 23:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Understatement 

message: I think that the {Asia in topic|Christianity in} at the bottm should be removed due to too many broken links being prevenlent.Wikkany Lion 06:56, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken Links 

message: I'm not sure this section should be included:
a; it's out of place within the article structure
b; it's badly written
c; it reads like a blatant plug for the book!
Anyone?Wsbhopkin 22:36, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Most famous chinese missionary' 

message: This web site talks about Christianity in China.-Agoodperson 14:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  http://www.yutopian.com/religion/ 

message: These unweildy lists should be made into separate articles, as they are duplicated in several places and thus too difficult to maintain.   As it stands, the list of Protestant missionaries in China in the Christianity in China article is a conglomeration of a (yet to be created) List of Protestant missionaries in China and the (newly created) List of China Inland Mission missionaries in China. A tidyup is required.  See Talk:Hudson Taylor#List of Protestant missionaries in China for related discussion. DFH 20:06, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The proposed list has since been created by Brian0324. Thanks. DFH 18:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lists of missionaries 

message: While the link to Islam in China may be relevant, (I know there is/was a link to this article there.) why is there link to Muslim Chinese Martial Arts?  What relevance is that?  Minguo 16:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the link to martial arts and have moved some other links around.  I think a few more could be removed, like the link to Religion in Soviet Union.Minguo 21:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Islamic Links

message: The lead estimates that between 40 to 65 million christians exist in china. Now, not to split hairs here, but while it is true that one study estimates 40 million and another 65 million, that by no means indicates that there are an estimated between 40 and 65 million christians in China. That statement implies that there is a single study arguing for between the two numbers with such a margin of error. Stringing two numbers together like that to make one estimate is pressing the boarders of OR. Thanatosimii 05:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thus, it says estimated. Nobody can give you the exact number. Statistics is not 100% accurate. For instance, nobody can even tell what the exact U.S. population is right now. In other words, statistics is meant to give you somewhat of a "rough idea". Cheers. Heilme 05:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but that's not the point. This is currently a WP:OR#Unpublished_synthesis_of_published_material violation. You can't cite two numbers which are true but say that that's the range. Thanatosimii 06:10, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Estimated numbers 

message: Where do you get statisitics to back up the claims that Chrisitanity is China's fastest growing religion? What about Falun Gong? Mike Young 15:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fastest Growing???

message: Why are there no suggested readings published in the last twenty years?
21:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bibliography 

message: I just read this article and noticed there was a jump from WWII Christianity in China to present day Christianity.
Shouldn't there be an addition regarding the murder and persecution of Christians in China by the Communists?  What about persecution nowadays?  Maybe I just overread part of this article, but it seems that persecution was and is a horrible part of Christianity in China.  If anyone has any good information about this I think he or she should add to this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Uriah is Boss (talk • contribs) 17:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was told by someone (a non expert who had been to China) that Communists forcibly or semi-forcibly removed many Christians into the rural countryside and smaller cities in order to limit their influence when they (The Communists) first came to power, and that this measure is one of the reasons the 'House church' networks have become so widespread.  Does anyone else know about this?  Minguo 16:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mao's influence 

message: "This form of Christianity survived until the end of the Yuan dynasty when many Nestorians were in prominent administrative and government positions"
What happened during the Yuan dynasty!? "Until" implies that something happened which caused Christianity to disappear, or at least go underground. But nowhere in the article does it say what happened. Nor does it say anything in the article for the Yuan Dynasty. 67.168.96.230 14:43, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote that particular line. After the fall of the Yuan Dynasty they fell out of  favor due to their association with a foreign (and now hated) dynasty.  The Ming didn't actively persecute them, but removed their privileges and definitely removed them from their administrative posts.  The church organization, separated from its homeland in Persia and Syria by Muslim states withered away.  See "A history of Christianity in Asia: Beginnings to 1500 by Samuel Hugh Moffett Minguo 15:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Someone set Christians up the bomb? 

message: What about the Assyrian-rite parish which has been discovered in 2003, cutt off from the main Assyrians for 8 centuries? - Waelsch 00:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assyrian-rite parish 

message: Can we agree that it is undue weight to add this as it currently stands? The photo is really irrelevant to the subject of the article as well.Brian0324 (talk) 19:07, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Very much so.  I already reverted the laughably POV, OR unsourced material.  I didn't delete the heading, just in case there is SOME relevant NPOV material that can be included....although I doubt it.--Anietor (talk) 19:12, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

text: You can change some words, but please leave the paragraph. --Xi Zhu (talk) 19:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

text: @Anietor: You too are adding POV material. Why you've the right to cut my edits while taking yours? --Xi Zhu (talk) 19:54, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Being called a "missionary" is a personal attack against my credible record of neutrality.Brian0324 (talk) 20:14, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christianity in China and USA politics 

message: ;Christianity in China and USA politics
Figures presenting high numbers of Christians in China are often considered political propaganda spread by the United States.http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-977347/Counting-Christians-in-China-a.html Some people criticize Christian missionary activities in China as attempts to create a community of politicized converts, followers of the United States.David Aikman. Jesus in Beijing: How Christianity Is Changing the Global Balance of Power. Regnery Publishing, 2003.  Chinese Christians are said to be pro-American and Zionists.David Aikman. Jesus in Beijing: How Christianity Is Changing the Global Balance of Power. Regnery Publishing, 2003. 
Some see in the Christian missions to China a form of neocolonialism and US imperialism, that attempts to spread in Chinese culture values and worldviews of the Western world. These beliefs are shared by modern Chinese anti-American movements.
Other criticisms focus on the idea that Christian missionaries are exploiting the traditional relation between religion and revolt - characteristic of Chinese religious history - to cause a revolution against the Chinese Communist Party.David Aikman. Jesus in Beijing: How Christianity Is Changing the Global Balance of Power. Regnery Publishing, 2003. 
David Akiman, in his book Jesus in Beijing, examines the American Protestant dream of the creation of a Chinese "army"David Aikman. Jesus in Beijing: How Christianity Is Changing the Global Balance of Power. Regnery Publishing, 2003.  of Christian converts with which defeat the Muslim world by conversion.David Aikman. Jesus in Beijing: How Christianity Is Changing the Global Balance of Power. Regnery Publishing, 2003. 
;End of the paragraph —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xi Zhu (talk • contribs) 
::Being called a "missionary" is a personal attack against my credible record of neutrality.Brian0324 (talk) 20:14, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paragraph the two missionaries continue to delete 

message: I'd like to see how editors feel about these two following issues in order to move forward:
#The intro right now has too much on the numbers.  Detailed information about the numbers should be in the Demographics section.
#The intro right now is a bit POV and should somehow incorporate some negative views about Christianity in China while keeping the positive views that are already there.
If editors can agree with the above two statements, we can move forward to figure out how to solve those problems.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: IMHO any kind of criticism, positive or negative, will cause edit wars and new POVs. --Esimal (talk) 16:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, WP:NPOV suggests that we include opposing POVs instead of eliminating them.  Whether discussed in the intro or afterwards, opposing POVs need to be included.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe it would be good to create a "Positive and negative impacts of Christianity in China" section. --Esimal (talk) 16:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you Esiaml and Hong for your help in keeping neutral the article. --Xi Zhu (talk) 11:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I've added the detail. --Esimal (talk) 18:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Brian, Wikipedia can't confirm such kind of statements. We can't be sure of the number of Christians today nor in the past years. We can't state "Christianity is growing" without scientific proofs, it's not neutral. --Esimal (talk) 21:10, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tony Lambert's study, that you are in favor of including, shows (as I indicated above) that whereas in 1952 only one in 1000 Chinese were Protestant, as of 1996 it had jumped to one in 36. This is during the period of the PRC, an officially atheist regime that closed the doors of all official churches for about ten years during the Chinese Cultural Revolution. The quote from the NY Times is just a concise summary of Christianity in China as it is today, supported by even the most conservative figures.Brian0324 (talk) 21:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Brian, there is (were, before the October surveys) full of clappy-clappy numbers. See the Adherents.com report. It seems in 1942 there were 1 million Protestants, and the 130 million figure is much older than I thought... It was published in 1999. --Esimal (talk) 21:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So you agree that growth is a notable trend? Please clarify. Thanks.Brian0324 (talk) 20:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We're not here to state that a religion is growing, we have just to provide numbers. Probably Buddhism has grown faster than Christianity. --Esimal (talk) 21:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

text: But, if on the Religion in China page Buddhism and Taoism are described as being in a state of "major revival", then it is notable.Brian0324 (talk) 22:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Brian, Taiping Christianity is used by many studies as a label for the Taiping doctrine. Taipings had a huge impact on China, and we must talk about the effects. --Esimal (talk) 21:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Taiping Christians" is not an common, accurate, or neutral descriptor of this movement. Brian0324 (talk) 21:38, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Please be neutral, we can't cite Christian authors' texts as divine revelations. --Esimal (talk) 21:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it is going to be cited as a fact, then it needs no qualifier. That's just protocol, not bias.Brian0324 (talk) 21:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Moving forward

message: ;It keeps official figures and actual surveys
Christianity in China has developed since at least the 7th century AD. The introduction of Nestorianism, a Christian denomination, around 635 is considered by some to be the first entry of the Christian religion into China. However, recent discoveries seem to put the first diffusion of Christianity in China during the 1st century AD.Christianity arrives in China 550 years earlier: new evidence Today, the Christian population in China comprises Protestants, Catholics, and a small number of Orthodox Christians. The government census enumerates 4 million Catholics and 10 million Protestantshttp://www.china.org.cn/e-china/religions/belief.htm, while latest surveys (independent of the Chinese government) show a number of 54 million Christians in China (4% of the total population).http://www.assistnews.net/STORIES/2007/s07100011.htmhttp://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Nov07/Art_Nov07_17.html
*Support - Looks good to me.  But maybe clarify that the "latest studies" are independent of the Chinese government, or even mention specifically where those "latest studies" came from.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added the detail. --Esimal (talk) 18:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Brian, Wikipedia can't confirm such kind of statements. We can't be sure of the number of Christians today nor in the past years. We can't state "Christianity is growing" without scientific proofs, it's not neutral. --Esimal (talk) 21:10, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tony Lambert's study, that you are in favor of including, shows (as I indicated above) that whereas in 1952 only one in 1000 Chinese were Protestant, as of 1996 it had jumped to one in 36. This is during the period of the PRC, an officially atheist regime that closed the doors of all official churches for about ten years during the Chinese Cultural Revolution. The quote from the NY Times is just a concise summary of Christianity in China as it is today, supported by even the most conservative figures.Brian0324 (talk) 21:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Brian, there is (were, before the October surveys) full of clappy-clappy numbers. See the Adherents.com report. It seems in 1942 there were 1 million Protestants, and the 130 million figure is much older than I thought... It was published in 1999. --Esimal (talk) 21:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So you agree that growth is a notable trend? Please clarify. Thanks.Brian0324 (talk) 20:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We're not here to state that a religion is growing, we have just to provide numbers. Probably Buddhism has grown faster than Christianity. --Esimal (talk) 21:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

text: But, if on the Religion in China page Buddhism and Taoism are described as being in a state of "major revival", then it is notable.Brian0324 (talk) 22:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro proposal

message: ;Shows the array of numbers both official, surveys, and claims without evident documentation
It is not exactly known how many Chinese consider themselves Christian. The Chinese government states that only 1% (14 million; 10 million Protestants and 4 million Catholics)http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6337627.stmhttp://www.china.org.cn/e-china/religions/belief.htm of the population is Christian while the Chinese Embassy states that 10 Million (0.75%)http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/zjxy/t36493.htm are Christian. However, claims have ranged from 20 millionhttp://www.christiantimesnews.net/Articles/Articles%20Nov07/Art_Nov07_17.html, to "between 60 and 80 million"http://www.worthynews.com/news-features/compass-china-survey.html, to 100 millionhttp://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/BibleStudyAndTheology/Discipleship/persecution_112702.aspx, to 130 million alleged for the first time in 1999http://www.adherents.com/adhloc/Wh_70.htmlhttp://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionreport/stories/2007/1998728.htmhttp://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2007/90133.htm. The most of these figures were just claims, not backed by studies.
In responsehttp://www.assistnews.net/STORIES/2007/s07100011.htmhttp://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Nov07/Art_Nov07_17.html to these claims a series of surveys have been conducted in 2007. A recent Chinese poll held in April revealed by the BBC showed that approximately 40 million Christians live in China. In October 2007 two polls were conducted, one by Protestant missionary Werner Burklin, the other one by Liu Zhongyu from East China Normal University in Shanghai. The surveys were conducted independently and during different periods, but they reached the same results.http://www.assistnews.net/STORIES/2007/s07100011.htmhttp://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Nov07/Art_Nov07_17.html According to these studies, in China there are roughly 54 million Christians, of which 39 million Protestants and 14 million Catholics.http://www.assistnews.net/STORIES/2007/s07100011.htmhttp://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Nov07/Art_Nov07_17.html Burklin criticizes both higher numbers as inconsistent, and North American evangelical leaders who spread them.http://www.assistnews.net/STORIES/2007/s07100011.htmhttp://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Nov07/Art_Nov07_17.html
A 2003 study by Tony Lambert examines the problems of false statistics.http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-977347/Counting-Christians-in-China-a.html It says that high numbers of Christians in China are not backed by reliable and documented evidence,http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-977347/Counting-Christians-in-China-a.html and they started to be spread in 1980s because of sociopolitical issues.http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-977347/Counting-Christians-in-China-a.html
A relatively large proportion of Christians are concentrated in Hebei province, in particular Catholics. Hebei is also home to the town of Donglu, site of an alleged Marian apparition and pilgrimage center.
*Support - Yes, this is where the details of the population numbers should go.  The intro should be kept short on the numbers.
*Support --Xi Zhu (talk) 11:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Demographics proposal

message: ;Persecution of Buddhists, Taiping Rebellion & destruction of temples, colonialism; positivities
Christianity took root in a significant way during the Qing Dynasty, when was founded the movement of Taiping Christianity. It was said to have several million adherents, of which the vast majority were peasants. They founded a theocratic kingdom opposing the Qing rule. At their height they controlled over one-fourth of China. Taiping Christians undertook the so called Taiping Rebellion, that caused the death of between 20 and 30 million peoplehttp://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHING/TAIPING.HTM. In addition, as a result of social disorders caused by the rebellion, an estimated other 60 million Chinese died in the following periods.http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHING/TAIPING.HTM
Taiping Christians persecuted followers of other religions (Buddhism, Taoism and folkloric practices). The Taiping leader, Hong Xiuquan, declared himself "slayer of demons", send by the Christian God to "eradicate demons and demon worship".http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHING/TAIPING.HTM Organized into a military society, Taiping Christians destroyed temples, monasteries and religious iconography in southern China.http://aer2.sbc.edu.hk/~wcc/China/TPIDEO.DOChttp://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761576710/Taiping_Rebellion.htmlhttp://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHING/TAIPING.HTM
Christian authors wrote that Christians in China established the first clinics and hospitalsGulick, (1975) pp. 561-562, provided the first training for nurses, opened the first schools, worked to abolish practices such as foot binding Burgess, (1957) pp. 47, and the unjust treatment of maidservants, as well as launching charitable work and distributing food to the poor. They are also said to have opposed the opium tradeAustin, (2007)  and to have brought treatment to many who were addicted. Some of the early leaders of the Chinese Republic, such as Sun Yat-sen were converts to Christianity and were influenced by its teachings.Soong, (1997) p. 151-178
A 2004 study by Eric Robert discusses the opposition that Christian missionaries have traditionally held toward vegetarianism as a strategy to counter the influence of Buddhism, and as part of their effort to convert Chinese "Heathens" (as Buddhists and Taoists were called by missionaries) to Christianity.http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/positions/v012/12.2reinders.html
[...]
*Comment - "Taiping Christianity"? watch out for neologisms (WP:NEO). Christianity doesn't deserve the blame for their destructiveness, nor do they deserve all of the credit for being peasant/communist reformers ahead of their time.Brian0324 (talk) 19:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Brian, Taiping Christianity is used by many studies as a label for the Taiping doctrine. Taipings had a huge impact on China, and we must talk about the effects. --Esimal (talk) 21:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Taiping Christians" is not an common, accurate, or neutral descriptor of this movement. Brian0324 (talk) 21:38, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Please be neutral, we can't cite Christian authors' texts as divine revelations. --Esimal (talk) 21:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it is going to be cited as a fact, then it needs no qualifier. That's just protocol, not bias.Brian0324 (talk) 21:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Effects of Christianity in China

message: Made some edits that should reflect some of the concerns above for neutrality regarding the emphasis of the quote on growth. Not attempting to circumvent the ongoing discussion, here, but I was not intending to make a major departure from how the article read.Brian0324 (talk) 18:22, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  consensus 

message: I made a recent minor edit to the article where it stated "the first clinics and hospitals" and changed it to "the first modern clinics and hospitals." This is because China actually had an established pre-modern system of pharmacology, free health clinics, retirement homes, and hospitals before Protestant missionaries and others arrived with more modern standards (well, "modern" in the 19th century sense). Refer to page 172 of Jacques Gernet's Daily Life in China on the Eve of the Mongol Invasion, 1250–1276 (1962), as well as page 167 of Patricia Ebrey, James Palais, and Anne Walthall's East Asia: A Social, Cultural, and Political History (2006).--Pericles of AthensTalk 20:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Clinics and hospitals

message: This talk page is very long and needs to archived at some point. If there are unresolved issues, please address them, otherwise it would be a good time during this lull to do some housekeeping here  if no one objects. Thanks.Brian0324 (talk) 18:55, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive