Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)

message: As the nominator noted, there has been disagreement about what the appropriate title should be for certain European monarchs that have reigned since the end of the Middle Ages. At the core of this debate is an argument over whether WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME or WP:NCROY and WP:CONSISTENT should take precedence when naming articles on European royalty and nobility. As illustrated in the RMs linked in the next section, both sides of the involved parties have cited WP:PRIMARYTOPIC/WP:COMMONNAME or WP:NCROY/WP:CONSISTENT to justify their reasonings to support their viewpoints. Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: AndrewPeterT’s attempt to neutrally summarize the issue

message: #All of the RMs that the nominator has mentioned (In the interest of full disclosure, I opened the Elizabeth II RM that is linked in the explanation. I will return to this matter later.)
#An RM was initiated on Charles III’s article on July 23, 2023 that was unsuccessful
#An RM was initiated on George I of Great Britain’s article on July 30, 2023 that was unsuccessful
#An RM was initiated on Victor Emmanuel III of Italy’s article on August 4, 2023 that was unsuccessful
#An RM was initiated on Oscar I of Sweden’s article on August 17, 2023 that was unsuccessful
As I will elaborate on later, the linked RMs show that neither the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC/WP:COMMONNAME camp nor the WP:NCROY/WP:CONSISTENT camp in this argument have a monopoly on article title naming for European sovereigns, other royals, and nobles. Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Evidence to illustrate that the RfC issue raised has indeed been contentious

message: No, titles such as Elizabeth II and Carl XVI Gustaf are unacceptable for English Wikipedia purposes and should not be explicitly accepted. These titles violate the spirit of WP:NCROY, WP:CONSISTENT, and all of the four other goals of WP:TITLE. Also, as I will argue later, even WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME make a case for alternative names such as Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom and Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden. Furthermore, given the contentiousness of this RfC matter, WP:IAR should be invoked so that WP:NCROY and WP:CONSISTENT takes precedence when titling articles covered by the scope of WP:NCROY. If an arguable “primary topic” or “common name” exists for a given post-classical European royal or noble, that title can exist as a redirect to the given individual’s article. This practice has precedence on Wikipedia, as I will illustrate in a later section. Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: AndrewPeterT’s concise opinion on the RfC matter

message: #I accept that this RfC only pertains to WP:NCROY. I will not comment on the appropriateness of article titles in other subject areas here, such as the pages under the scope of WikiProject Tropical cyclones. If another editor wants to debate the merits of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC or WP:COMMONNAME in that field (which I would welcome), this discussion will need to take place in another RfC.
#WP:NCROY itself does not apply to the entire scope of royalty and nobility, as the guideline page explains in multiple locations:
: (Emphasis mine)
: (Bolded emphasis mine)
: 
: (Emphasis mine)
Therefore, for the following groups of royals and nobles, I will accept WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME taking precedence over WP:NCROY in titling their articles, regardless of what is decided in this RfC:
:*Any European monarch/royal or noble that primarily reigned/lived before the fall of the Western Roman Empire
:*Any European monarch whose realm does not use regnal numbers as differentiation as WP:NCROY mentions, and the royals or nobles of these realms
:*Any pope (i.e. sovereign of the Vatican City)
:*Any Byzantine royal or noble
:*Any Middle Eastern/North African royal or noble
:*Any Central Asian royal or noble
:*Any Far Eastern (i.e. East, Southeast, or South Asian) royal or noble
:*Any Sub-Saharan African royal or noble
:*Any indigenous Oceanian royal or noble
:*Any indigenous North or South American royal or noble
However, once again, I do not accept WP:PRIMARYTOPIC or WP:COMMONNAME taking precedence over WP:NCROY or WP:CONSISTENT for post-classical European sovereigns, royals, or nobles for reasons that I will elaborate on in subsequent sections. Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Concessions to the opposition that AndrewPeterT will make

message: On multiple occasions, WP:PRINCIPLE makes the case that the four guidelines in the previous header are not Wikipedia laws:
# (Underlined emphasis mine)
# (Underlined emphasis mine)
# (Underlined emphasis mine)
# (Underlined emphasis mine)
With these quotes in mind, neither camp in this RfC debate, including my own side, can use our policy preferences to claim a monopoly on how article titles for European royals and nobles should be called. That being said, with certain accommodations, I will argue how WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME cannot objectively “cover the context” that WP:NCROY describes. Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Just saying “WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:NCROY, and WP:CONSISTENT are all guidelines, not rigid rules” would’ve been enough. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:55, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:NCROY, and WP:CONSISTENT are all guidelines, ''not'' rigid rules

message: As WP:PGE explains, a common misconception that Wikipedia users have is that a sitewide guideline takes precedence over a local one:
 (Emphasis mine)
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME are both examples of a . I concede that these pages provide advice that can provide useful considerations in some contexts outside of royalty. However, neither WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME offer any explicit guidance on a preferred way to refer to European royals and nobles via article titles. In contrast, the local guideline WP:NCROY, among other things, provides a preferred template on titling European sovereigns whose realms use regnal numbers for differentiation and explicitly states how princes with territorial suffixes should be called on Wikipedia.
In addition, WP:COMMONNAME itself concedes that the most “common” name of a subject is not always acceptable for a Wikipedia article title, namely that  (Emphasis mine). As I demonstrate below, formats such as Elizabeth II are ambiguous and therefore do not adhere to this guidance from WP:COMMONNAME when for royals and nobles that share the same name:
#Charles III can refer to either Charles III of Spain or Charles III of the United Kingdom,
#Elizabeth I can refer to either Elizabeth I of England or Elizabeth I of Russia,
#Elizabeth II can refer to either Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom or Elisabeth II, Abbess of Quedlinburg, and
#Maria Theresa can refer to, among even other people, Maria Theresa, Queen of Hungary, Maria Theresa of Spain, and Maria Theresa of Naples and Sicily.
Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME do not have the best interest of (European) royal and noble article titles in mind

message: Simply stated, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, as written, will never be conclusive when it comes to European royalty. This is supported by the fact that the guideline page mentions (at least) three times that no uniform definition of a primary topic exists:
# (Underlined emphasis mine)
# (Emphasis mine)
# (Emphasis mine)
In addition, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, via WP:DPT, lists several ways to determine a “primary topic”. However, all of these tools involve Internet resources, which is especially restrictive in the context of royalty and nobility. Even when only considering a European context, many sovereigns and nobles ruled before the advent of the Internet. There are likely lost written or verbal manuscripts, speeches, and other primary/secondary sources over the centuries that may indicate a “primary” term could have referred to a different ruler than what Internet results may indicate.
Moreover, in the spirit of WP:BIAS, the tools listed in WP:DPT exclude the perspectives of people that do not have access to Internet and can preclude users from checking online documents that have a paywall. Consequently, entire groups of individuals’ “primary” usage of a term are disregarded via these resources, and this is against the mission of Wikipedia. Given that monarchs and their royal relatives are especially pertinent symbols of unity for a nation or sovereign state, every perspective should be brought to the table, especially of those without Internet. In other words, namely for monarchs that share regnal names and numbers, we should not be omitting country names from article titles until those without Internet and otherwise excluded by WP:DPT’s resources have equitable access to voice their opinions on primary topics on Wikipedia to get a truly conclusive debate. Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Most material under a paywall can be accessed and searched through WP:TWL. If one doesn’t have access to Wikipedia, then they would not use it or need to have naming conventions make sense to them.Under this guideline we could still just add countries to both since they’re both reigning. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:30, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: There is no uniform way to adhere to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in general, and this is especially problematic for WP:NCROY

message: When I requested that Elizabeth II’s article title be moved to Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, I made the following argument in my rationale:
Simply stated, consistency sets the tone for all other goals of WP:TITLE to be met. For example, If a reader has just read Wikipedia’s article on Margrethe II of Denmark and knows that her first cousin, Carl XVI Gustaf, rules over Sweden, would they not type in Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden into the search bar next per Criterion 5 of WP:TITLE? (In any case, in the spirit of Criterion 2 of WP:TITLE, “Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden” was more natural for me to type than “Carl XVI Gustaf”, and this will likely be the case for at least some other readers.) Moreover, I hope that we can all agree that titles like “Margrethe II of Denmark” and “Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden” unambiguously define who those monarchs are, per Criterion 3 of WP:TITLE. Furthermore, reflecting Criterion 4 of WP:TITLE, there should be agreement that “Margrethe II” and “Carl XVI Gustaf” do not tell the reader anything about the realms these cousins ruled over. Finally, per Criterion 1 of WP:TITLE, “Margrethe II of Denmark” and “Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden” should tell readers that they are about to read about some royal just as effectively as “Margrethe II” and “Carl XVI Gustaf” would. Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Talk:Elizabeth II/Archive 48#c-Jèrriais_janne-20230801190400-Great_Mercian-20230803004000 can summarize my opposition to this argument. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:05, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: It’s not just about WP:CONSISTENT, it’s about all of the other goals of WP:TITLE

message: For this section, I would like to direct readers’ attention to what happened after the community moved George III (of the United Kingdom)’s article to its current target (I also cited this RM in my RM for Elizabeth II’s article title). Multiple policy-based oppositions quickly emerged. Although I did not participate in this move discussion, I completely agree with the sentiments of the users that challenged the move for George III. Moreover, the opposition expressed on George III’s article talk was a key reason I initiated the RM for Elizabeth II and the other deceased British monarchs’ articles last July. Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Evidence of omitting a monarch’s country from the article title being challenged by the community

message: If it is not convincing enough that WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC either do not take a stance or even overtly discourage this new trend in titling European monarchs’ articles, perhaps these four quotes from WP:TITLE should settle some concerns:
# (Underlined emphasis mine)
# (Emphasis mine)
# (Emphasis mine)
# (Emphasis mine)
# (Underlined emphasis mine)
Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Evidence of WP:TITLE itself deferring to WP:NCROY

message: *In the spirit of WP:IAR, I would like for WP:SOVEREIGN Guidelines 3 and 5 to take precedence over WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC when titling pertinent articles, as I have elaborated on. Moreover, WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT should be invoked if necessary.
*I have accepted by now that my opinion is in the minority. However, I ask that everyone who disagrees with me adhere to WP:5P4 when making counterarguments to my rationale.
*I encourage all editors who have been citing WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME to read the fine print of each guideline in addition to considering their spirit. Neither WP:PRIMARYTOPIC nor WP:COMMONNAME (and for that matter, WP:NCROY and WP:CONSISTENT) have unilateral authority on titling Wikipedia articles.
*Regardless of where we stand on this issue, I hope that we can all agree that this RfC should bring closure to a debate that has been in the making for the years. I will respect the final decision and will offer my services to amend WP:NCROY as appropriate depending on what the community agrees to. Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: We’re trying to change NCROY and you can’t argue for NCROY with NCROY. Nobody’s objecting that topic specific are usually better, but the current consensus runs afoul to the guideline. Guidelines and policies are not supposed to regulate consensus but to reflect existing consensus, which is usually based on existing, broad guidelines. IMO You have not made the case of what the spirit of NCROY is or why this should be an exception to the parent guidelines. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:22, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Final thoughts by AndrewPeterT

message: *Moratorium on all RMs for articles under scope of WP:NCROY - At this point, the community needs to establish a clear consensus on what this guideline states in writing. Any active RMs in this field will only detract from this goal. If possible, could an administrator close any RMs that are ongoing regarding article titles for European monarchs, royals, and nobles?
*Amending Guideline I of WP:SOVEREIGN - I also have taken issue with the vague language of this guideline:  What is considered “overwhelmingly” more common? Is a difference of two Google hits enough to keep Mary, Queen of Scots at that title as opposed to Mary I of Scotland? Is being mentioned by 150% more primary sources the threshold for not renaming William the Conqueror to William I of England? I recommend that another RfC be opened after this one elapses to settle this ambiguity.
*The matter of personal unions in general - When I opened the RM for Elizabeth II’s article, some users opposed the move on the basis that Elizabeth reigned over a multitude of realms. However, she is far from the only monarch to have done so. Are we, as Wikipedians, going to remove the country names from every monarch that ruled over two or more countries? If so, how are we going to determine the primary regnal number? This debacle is a major reason I oppose amending Guideline 3 of WP:SOVEREIGN whatsoever.
These are simply the top three concerns I personally have about WP:NCROY. For the sake of everyone’s focus, I will refrain from commenting on more matters until this RfC is resolved. Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Side issues that AndrewPeterT believes the community also needs to address

message: I respect that multiple users believe that article title formats like Elizabeth II is more in the spirit of WP:COMMONNAME. However, WP:COMMONNAME must be balanced against WP:CONSISTENT, WP:PRECISION, and WP:NPOVTITLE. An analysis of the titles of various sovereigns of current European monarchs shows how WP:CONSISTENT and WP:PRECISION are being disregarded for the sake of adhering to WP:COMMONNAME:
NOTES: First, to avoid overwhelming readers not familiar with European royalty, rulers of former monarchies are excluded. Also, as alluded to previously, sovereigns of the Vatican City are excluded because they are popes instead covered by WP:NCCL. Furthermore, the Presidents of France and Bishops of Urgell, the Co-Princes of Andorra, are excluded because they are instead subjected to WP:NCP and WP:NCCL, respectively.
Monarchs of Belgium
All sovereigns that have reigned since Belgium’s independence from the Netherlands in 1830 are included.
 Monarchs of Belgium
Title                 	Reign       	Adherence to WP:NCROY
Leopold I of Belgium  	1831-1865   	Yes
Leopold II of Belgium 	1865-1909   	Yes
Albert I of Belgium   	1909-1934   	Yes
Leopold III of Belgium	1934-1951   	Yes
Baudouin of Belgium   	1951-1993   	Yes (only monarch with name)
Albert II of Belgium  	1993-2013   	Yes
Philippe of Belgium   	2013-present	Yes (only monarch with name)
Monarchs of Denmark
All sovereigns that have reigned since the establishment of the Danish House of Glücksburg in 1863 are included.
 Monarchs of Denmark
Title                    	Reign       	Adherence to WP:NCROY
Christian IX of Denmark  	1863-1906   	Yes
Frederick VIII of Denmark	1906-1912   	Yes
Christian X of Denmark   	1912-1947   	Yes
Frederick IX of Denmark  	1947-1972   	Yes
Margrethe II of Denmark  	1972-present	Yes
Monarchs of the Netherlands
All sovereigns that have reigned since the establishment of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in 1815 are included.
 Monarchs of the Netherlands
Title                              	Reign       	Adherence to WP:NCROY
William I of the Netherlands       	1815-1840   	Yes
William II of the Netherlands      	1840-1849   	Yes
William III of the Netherlands     	1849-1890   	Yes
Wilhelmina of the Netherlands      	1890-1948   	Yes (only monarch with name)
Juliana of the Netherlands         	1948-1980   	Yes (only monarch with name)
Beatrix of the Netherlands         	1980-2013   	Yes (only monarch with name)
Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands	2013-present	Yes (only monarch with name)
Monarchs of Norway
All sovereigns that have reigned since the dissolution of the personal union of Norway with Sweden in 1905 are included.
 Monarchs of Norway
Title               	Reign       	Adherence to WP:NCROY
Haakon VII of Norway	1905-1957   	Yes
Olav V of Norway    	1957-1991   	Yes
Harald V of Norway  	1991-present	Yes
Monarchs of Spain
All sovereigns that have reigned in Spain since the establishment of the House of Bourbon-Anjou in 1700 are included, excluding monarchs from other royal houses.
 Monarchs of Spain
Title                 	Reign                  	Adherence to WP:NCROY
Philip V of Spain     	1700-1724 and 1724-1746	Yes
Louis I of Spain      	1724-1724              	Yes
Ferdinand VI of Spain 	1746-1759              	Yes
Charles III of Spain  	1759-1788              	Yes
Charles IV of Spain   	1788-1808              	Yes
Ferdinand VII of Spain	1808-1808 and 1813-1833	Yes
Isabella II of Spain  	1833-1868              	Yes
Alfonso XII           	1874-1885              	No
Alfonso XIII          	1886-1931              	No
Juan Carlos I         	1975-2014              	No
Felipe VI             	2014-present           	No
Monarchs of Sweden
All sovereigns that have reigned in Sweden since the establishment of the House of Bernadotte in 1818 are included.
 Monarchs of Sweden
Title            	Reign       	Adherence to WP:NCROY
Charles XIV John 	1818-1844   	No (and fails to acknowledge Norwegian regnal number)
Oscar I of Sweden	1844-1859   	Yes
Charles XV       	1859-1872   	No (and fails to acknowledge Norwegian regnal number)
Oscar II         	1872-1907   	No
Gustaf V         	1907-1950   	No
Gustaf VI Adolf  	1950-1973   	No
Carl XVI Gustaf  	1973-present	No
Monarchs of Great Britain or the United Kingdom
All sovereigns that have reigned since the unification of the Kingdoms of England and Scotland in 1707 are included.
 British monarchs
Title                       	Reign       	Adherence to WP:NCROY
Anne, Queen of Great Britain	1707-1714   	Yes (only monarch with name)
George I of Great Britain   	1714-1727   	Yes
George II of Great Britain  	1727-1760   	Yes
George III                  	1760-1820   	No
George IV                   	1820-1830   	No
William IV                  	1830-1837   	No
Queen Victoria              	1837-1901   	No
Edward VII                  	1901-1910   	No
George V                    	1910-1936   	No
Edward VIII                 	1936-1936   	No
George VI                   	1936-1952   	No
Elizabeth II                	1952-2022   	No
Charles III                 	2022-present	No
Monarchs of Luxembourg
All sovereigns that have reigned since the dissolution of the personal union of Luxembourg with the Netherlands in 1890 are included.
 Monarchs of Luxembourg
Title                                      	Reign       	Adherence to WP:NCROY
Adolphe, Grand Duke of Luxembourg          	1890-1905   	Yes (only monarch with name)
William IV, Grand Duke of Luxembourg       	1905-1912   	Yes
Marie-Adélaïde, Grand Duchess of Luxembourg	1912-1919   	Yes (only monarch with name)
Charlotte, Grand Duchess of Luxembourg     	1919-1964   	Yes (only monarch with name)
Jean, Grand Duke of Luxembourg             	1964-2000   	Yes (only monarch with name)
Henri, Grand Duke of Luxembourg            	2000-present	Yes (only monarch with name)
Sovereign Princes of Liechtenstein
 Sovereign Princes of Liechtenstein
Title                                       	Reign                  	Adherence to WP:NCROY
Karl I, Prince of Liechtenstein             	1627-1684              	Yes
Karl Eusebius, Prince of Liechtenstein      	1662-1701              	Yes (only monarch with name)
Hans-Adam I, Prince of Liechtenstein        	1684-1712              	Yes
Joseph Wenzel I, Prince of Liechtenstein    	1712-1718 and 1748-1772	Yes
Anton Florian, Prince of Liechtenstein      	1718-1721              	Yes (only monarch with name)
Joseph Johann Adam, Prince of Liechtenstein 	1721-1732              	Yes (only monarch with name)
Johann Nepomuk Karl, Prince of Liechtenstein	1732-1748              	Yes (only monarch with name)
Franz Joseph I, Prince of Liechtenstein     	1772-1781              	Yes
Aloys I, Prince of Liechtenstein            	1781-1805              	Yes
Johann I Joseph, Prince of Liechtenstein    	1805-1836              	Yes
Aloys II, Prince of Liechtenstein           	1836-1858              	Yes
Johann II, Prince of Liechtenstein          	1858-1929              	Yes
Franz I, Prince of Liechtenstein            	1929-1938              	Yes
Franz Joseph II, Prince of Liechtenstein    	1938-1989              	Yes
Hans-Adam II, Prince of Liechtenstein       	1989-present           	Yes
Rulers of Monaco
Sovereigns since Monaco became a principality in 1633 are listed, excluding periods of occupation.
 Rulers of Monaco
Title                               	Reign       	Adherence to WP:NCROY
Honoré II, Prince of Monaco         	1633-1662   	Yes
Louis I, Prince of Monaco           	1662-1701   	Yes
Antonio I, Prince of Monaco         	1701-1731   	Yes
Louise Hippolyte, Princess of Monaco	1731-1731   	Yes (only monarch with name)
Jacques I, Prince of Monaco         	1731-1733   	Yes
Honoré III, Prince of Monaco        	1733-1793   	Yes
Honoré IV, Prince of Monaco         	1814-1819   	Yes
Honoré V, Prince of Monaco          	1819-1841   	Yes
Florestan, Prince of Monaco         	1841-1856   	Yes (only monarch with name)
Charles III, Prince of Monaco       	1856-1889   	Yes
Albert I, Prince of Monaco          	1889-1922   	Yes
Louis II, Prince of Monaco          	1922-1949   	Yes
Rainier III, Prince of Monaco       	1949-2005   	Yes
Albert II, Prince of Monaco         	2005-present	Yes
Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: APPENDIX A: Evidence of omitting a monarch’s country from the article title violating the spirit of WP:CONSISTENT, and by extension, WP:TITLE

message: As I have mentioned, some users have argued WP:COMMONNAME. However, as I will demonstrate in this section, it is already a precedent that WP:NCROY supersedes WP:COMMONNAME when it comes to naming English Wikipedia articles on royals.
Below, I have listed select princes and princesses from five current European monarchies. Moreover, using Google search results, I show that each of their Wikipedia article titles are less common than some alternatives but are still used regardless. I see no reason why monarchs’ titles should not follow the same trend in the spirit of WP:CONSISTENT:''
 Page views for select European princes and princesses
Title                                 	Google hits for Title	Alternative name  	Google hits for Alternative name	Percentage comparison of Google Title hits with Google Alternative hits
William, Prince of Wales              	659,000              	Prince William    	129,000,000                     	0.5% of Google Alternative hits
Catherine, Princess of Wales          	1,220,000            	Kate Middleton    	152,000,000                     	0.8% of Google Alternative hits
Diana, Princess of Wales              	4,940,000            	Princess Diana    	53,500,000                      	9.23% of Google Alternative hits
Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex          	1,850,000            	Prince Harry      	170,000,000                     	1.09% of Google Alternative hits
Meghan, Duchess of Sussex             	4,870,000            	Meghan Markle     	[347,000,000                    	1.40% of Google Alternative hits
Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon	122,000              	Princess Margaret 	12,200,000                      	1% of Google Alternative hits
Anne, Princess Royal                  	452,000              	Princess Anne     	14,900,000                      	3.03% of Google Alternative hits
Prince Andrew, Duke of York           	310,000              	Prince Andrew     	78,800,000                      	0.39% of Google Alternative hits
Prince Edward, Duke of Edinburgh      	184,000              	Prince Edward     	95,500,000                      	0.19% of Google Alternative hits
Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark     	62,000               	Prince Frederik   	640,000                         	9.69% of Google Alternative hits
Haakon, Crown Prince of Norway        	18,600               	Prince Haakon     	271,000                         	6.86% of Google Alternative hits
Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland  	26,200               	Prince Carl Philip	797,000                         	3.29% of Google Alternative hits
Leonor, Princess of Asturias          	130,000              	Princess Leonor   	954,000                         	13.63% of Google Alternative hits
Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, they have. And quite frankly, this is becoming a matter beyond which an RfC at this time can resolve. Hurricane Andrew (444) 19:36, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: APPENDIX B: Evidence of WP:COMMONNAME already being disregarded for multiple European royals (and WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT being used)

message: I'm curious. Seeing as (since the recently closed RFC) more RMs (if they're still used) will result in more monarch bio page titles having "of country" removed. One wonders, are the consorts & royals in line of succession to thrones, to be next?  Examples -  Queen Letizia of Spain changed to Queen Letizia  Princess Ingrid Alexandra of Norway to Princess Ingrid Alexandra  Haakon, Crown Prince of Norway to Crown Prince Haakon  Victoria, Crown Princess of Sweden to Crown Princess Victoria  This does appear to be the growing trend. GoodDay (talk) 17:58, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems like a slippery slope fallacy. 2601:249:9301:D570:DCE:DB6E:BCC:F04D (talk) 04:55, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh.... it's going to eventually happen. GoodDay (talk) 18:11, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a bridge that can be crossed if we get to it. 98.228.137.44 (talk) 02:45, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consorts & royals in line of succession 

message: With all due respect to the previous RFC on naming of monarch bios. Why hasn't anyone ever suggested going with Name # (country) style, for those that won't end up as Name # style? Must admit, it would shorten the article title. GoodDay (talk) 20:49, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Natural disambiguation is preferred over parenthetical disambiguation per criterion 2 of the Wikipedia:Article titles#Deciding on an article title policy. DrKay (talk) 20:58, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

text: As far as making it shorter is concerned, it would only make the title one character shorter, since adding the parentheses would cancel out the removal of "of", so in practice, it would just be removing a second space between words. 2601:249:9301:D570:54F1:409D:EC26:FB49 (talk) 17:57, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason I mentioned it. Sometimes, those who want to drop "of country" from monarch page titles, have mentioned that "of country" isn't a part of a monarch's name. GoodDay (talk) 18:02, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should 'Name # of country' be changed to 'Name # (country)'? 

message: During the Middle Ages, many Polish sovereigns were never crowned, and as such only used the title of "duke" or "high duke" for their entire reign. However these rulers still ruled over the Kingdom of Poland, just without the title of king. For these rulers, which format should be used: X, Duke of Poland" or X of Poland? UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 07:44, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: How are they most commonly referred to in English language reliable sources. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:45, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question on naming convention in regards to Polish sovereigns 

message: As the guideline is biased towards Europe as is most of Wikipedia, and restricts its coverage of non-European monarchs to a few bullet points essentially saying "there is no convention, look at WP:AT", I think this guideline's title should be changed to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (European royalty and nobility). Thoughts? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:56, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: As a note for the record, I have responded to this proposal here: diff AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 18:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title of the guideline 

message: You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves § Adding hyphens to French personal names.  Ham II (talk) 05:37, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: In what manner? GoodDay (talk) 13:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I was literally just typing a paragraph which your edit disrupted and now which I have got to rewrite all again... UnicornSherbert (talk) 14:01, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

text: So basically, you want the article title to match the article intro. GoodDay (talk) 14:29, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I propose for the entire policy to be rewritten for the reasons I have given above. Far too much time is spent by users wrangling over someone's title and whether to include it. Surely this time would be better spent on providing quality edits... I think I have made the case that the policy is not fit for purpose and requires to be significantly rewritten. I would propose that a peers correct title be included in the lead as it currently is, in the infobox, and in the heading. I would further propose that for their job articles, their proper title be used. WP:COMMONNAME does not assist the submission made by the above editors as this is overtaken by the fact that they are peers. If it was the case that a peerage does not change this, why would there be two separate policies for people and then for peers? The policy also conflicts with WP:CONSISTENT.  These too are yet other reasons why the policy is not fit for purpose. Where a peer is better known by a different name or title, they could have the resolution like in the article for Henry John Temple, 3rd Viscount Palmerston which says his name and correct title but then says "known as Lord Palmerston". UnicornSherbert (talk) 14:58, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion at [[:Wikipedia talk:Requested moves#Adding hyphens to French personal names|Wikipedia talk:Requested moves §&nbsp;Adding hyphens to French personal names]]

message: You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) § Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) - RfC drafting for reversion of the November 2023 change.  Rosbif73 (talk) 07:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion at [[:Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)#Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) - RfC drafting for reversion of the November 2023 change|Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) §&nbsp;Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) - RfC drafting for reversion of the November 2023 change]]