Talk:Percheron

message: Prince Imperial
I have information on Prince Imperial, one of the first Percheron's brought to the United States.  What would be the best way to add the information? Stu 14:37, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment by [[User:Skoblentz|Stu]]

message: The first sentence under the "History" section appears to require proofreading.  I can't help, because I cannot figure out exactly what meaning is intended.  Also, following the hypertext link to the "Forest Horse" article, it appears that the History section of the Percheron article may contain original research, since the role of the Forest Horse in giving rise to the modern domesticated horse is described in the linked article as the subject of some debate.  Finally, the third sentence begins with an uncapitalized letter.  -- Bob (Bob99 (talk) 16:02, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup required? 

message: Hey D, I really dislike that new lead image of the percheron because he's fat, badly groomed and a bit dirty-looking.  Would this image I posted here work OK?   I suppose the other one had to go because it was of a team, but given that the only conformation shots in commons are terrible, this one I think shows the classic breed image better than the one that's in there.  But this is your GA, so your call.  Montanabw(talk) 20:31, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Switched. This one is a better photo, and it looks better than I thought it would in the lead, because it's a bit bigger. The only reason I chose the other one was because the horse was closer to the camera, and not moving. It sucks how many bad conformation shots we have on commons, and how few good ones. I really need to get a trip to Equine Affair or the MSU breed expo into my calendar... Dana boomer (talk) 22:19, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I know the feeling. So you also have been known to go somewhere or do something just for photos in wiki?  (LOL) I am probably going to put the state Draft Horse Expo on my calendar.  Almost went to a PBR event a few weeks back, but my digital camera is terrible indoors, so never mind... and I think I need to make another trip to the tack room to dig some stuff I never use out of a trunk just to take photos...or else bring my camera to the farm and ranch supply place and have them ask me questions and look at me funny... ("what do you mean you need a photo of THAT?")  Montanabw(talk) 00:28, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: * Le cheval à paris de 1850 à 1914
* Les chevaux par Elwyn Hartley Edwards. But it contain some popular mistakes
* La bête noire : By an ethnologist. Excellent source
* Another breeds encyclopedia
* ...and another --Tsaag Valren (talk) 23:10, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some numeric french sources 

message: The horse project is aware that we will work together this article in English and French. I suggest we use this discussion page there, rather than the French one, after all, we learn English at school and if you understand what I write, it should be fine (lol!). Okay ? --Tsaag Valren (talk) 10:16, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep in mind that this article already has WP:GA status here, and so all changes (other than superficial ones) need to be discussed so the article doesn't get its quality downgraded by things like poor source citations, too much foreign language citation, etc...  Improvements can always be made, just carefully!  Montanabw(talk) 19:42, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem ! Actually, I'm translating your article ;) --Tsaag Valren (talk) 20:01, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Tsaag, I apologize for my extremely slow response - I have been very busy in real life, and while I have been watching the discussion here and elsewhere, I have had very little time to comment. I will try to get to your comments below as soon as possible (hopefully sometime this weekend). Please know that I have seen them, however, and that I am not ignoring you! Thank you for your continuing patience, Dana boomer (talk) 01:16, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. It will be fun if we can have an AdQ in  and  at the same time ;) --Tsaag Valren (talk) 10:04, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Work from {{In lang|fr}} wp 

message: *FlickR have intereting pics. I've noticed : Mounted police on Percherons here, details of the head for carriage here a hoof here --Tsaag Valren (talk) 10:38, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you get them uploaded to commons? If so, let us know!  Montanabw(talk) 20:48, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I can try. I'll give you the link in commons so if you can correct the description in English ? --Tsaag Valren (talk) 10:02, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Done : 
File:Percherons APD Mounted officers.jpg|Percherons APD Mounted officers
File:Percheron head in Home Carriage Festival.jpg|Percheron head in Home Carriage Festival
File:Percheron hoof.jpg|Percheron's hoof
--Tsaag Valren (talk) 10:43, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

text: Can you help me to categorize ? --Tsaag Valren (talk) 10:51, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Very nice and useful ones. Categorised. Pitke (talk) 18:48, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interesting photos 

message: The units used in this article are not in accordance with WP:UNIT, which states quite clearly that:
* In science-related articles: generally use only SI units and non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI.
* In non-science US-related articles: the main unit is generally a US customary unit (22 pounds (10 kg)).
* In non-science UK-related articles: the main unit is generally a metric unit (10 kg (22 pounds))
* All other articles: the main unit is generally an SI unit or a non-SI unit officially accepted for use with the SI.
This is a breed of horse from France, so clearly #2 and #3 have no relevance, and the units should unequivocally be SI or SI-accepted. I tagged the article as needing attention, but, to no-one's surprise, an editor who knows better than WP:MOS has removed that tag, citing "balance". Nevertheless, the article required and still requires attention to units. Instead of starting another edit-war, I'm placing the tag here:
but of course it is to be understood that it refers to the article itself, not to this talk-page. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:04, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You raised this at WPEQ and the consensus was against you, ALL the horse articles use hands as a measurement and you are merely engaging in WP:ASK behavior to raise it at a single article when you lost on the overall principle.  To omit other nations breed standards is not the purpose of the infobox -- in fact, as at times different nations have a different standard -- and sometimes even more representatives of the breed than in their "home" nation -- it is entirely appropriate to have multiple standards for the major groups.  Your comments are not helping the quality of this article and you are edit-warring against the consensus of other editors who have put most of the substantive work into this article.  Montanabw(talk) 21:41, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Justlettersandnumbers, all English-speaking countries use hands, and wikipedia is written in English. Hence hands are ok. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:25, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid that is a logical fallacy based on an unsupported premise. How certain are you that hands are used in India, Malta, Fiji, the Falkland Islands? They may or may not be, I know I don't know. The fact that customary units of various kinds are used in various countries, English-speaking or not, does not in any way imply that those units should be used in this wiki, which, like every country in the world but one, uses metric units, with some exceptions as per WP:UNIT, which makes no mention of hands. There was an RfC on this matter recently. No-one was prepared to suggest that the MOS needed to be modified. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:00, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: JLAN, you have raised all of these points when you tried this at WPEQ,  consensus mostly went against you, and you need to just let it go.  Bringing this up in another horse article is a classic example of WP:ASK, which you would do well to read.  Further, it is OR in the extreme to go against the weight of the overwhelming evidence for this very common usage.   And quite frankly, "every country in the world but one" does happen to include over 300 million people, so while we are sympathetic to the horse owners of Fiji, do show a little cultural understanding and respect please.  Montanabw(talk) 23:18, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Units 

message: File:Percheron jump.jpg|1) Current image
File:Percheron race 2.jpg|2) My suggestion to replace
File:Percheron race.jpg|3) Another version of 2
My points being:
*1 is of bad, ugly quality. It's fuzzy. It's of low resolution. 2 is a nicely composed, good quality image with adequate resolution and sharpness.
*1 looks suspiciously light. 2 expresses the typical heaviness of the breed.
*1 features show jumping, a sport better known than barrel racing (featured in 2) throughout the world.
*However, 2 does not fail to show the horse in dramatic, athletic, high-speed action.
*1 was added in late 2007, being one of the only images to pick from.
*2 was uploaded two months after the article was reviewed for GA, so it wasn't decided against then. Pitke (talk) 18:00, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The other problem is that Percherons suck at barrel racing; it's a speed event totally in opposition to their breed's form and function.  They can, perhaps, but it doesn't mean they should.  OTOH, they can readily be crossed to make heavy hunters and do fine; hence  jumping image is within the realm of possible.  You can't crossbreed a Percheron to get a barrel horse, though.  I'm all for an improved action photo, but not one of a nontypical use that makes the animal look ridiculous, and a barrel racing Percheron IS sad to say, ridiculous, especially to watch a draft horse live trying to run barrels (a Quarter Horse pulling a circus wagon would be equally ridiculous).  The photo makes me cringe just to look at it. (I live in barrel racing country, trust me on this one, a bad barrel horse is almost enough to make you cry, "enough already") Montanabw(talk) 23:36, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Monty, my duck, does this mean I'll have to remove the images of Finnhorses jumping, doing dressage, and being harness raced from the Finnhorse article, simply because the breed is (for now) physically incapable of being a "proper" dressage horse, showjumper, and racing horse at the international level? Pitke (talk) 08:24, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh heavens no!  They CAN do these things quite well.  Percherons can do a passable job jumping and some under saddle work, though it pushes the limits of what their form was designed to do.  But a barrel racing Percheron, or a Percheron in any kind of speed event, well, If you had a photo of perhaps a roller-skating Finnhorse, that might be the level I'm talking about.  A percheron in a western saddle as a trail riding horse, I'd consider within the realm (some guest ranches have draft crosses broke to saddle for carrying really heavy riders) but barrel racing.  Well, here's a video of barrel racing the way it is supposed to work, and here's another. On the other hand, this is what Percheron barrel racing is like.  You see the situation.Montanabw(talk) 22:15, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Note to self, get photos of 1) that palomino roan 2) a barrel racing Finnhorse. Pitke (talk) 15:25, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL!  Really, I'm not a huge fan of barrel racing, it's just that there is so much of it out here.  There is seriously decent money in it at the top levels, but we non-rodeo people actually spend a lot of time convincing little girls in 4-H NOT to go "chasing cans" because doing so can really screw up a horse for other forms of pleasure riding (as you may have noticed with the behavior of the horses in the NFR clip). :-P Not to say that a savvy old barrel horse cannot successfully be repurposed, but they know little of collection or lateral aids.   That said, we have already established elsewhere that Finnhorses can do ANYTHING, so maybe they can barrel race too! (grin)  Montanabw(talk) 04:39, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

text: The US association doesn't say anything specifically (at least not that I can find), but it has numerous pictures of registered horses (including standing studs) with docked tails, so I'm assuming that they don't have a problem with docking. Horses in the US are definitely still having docked tails today (or at least were in the very recent future), as I saw a pair of youngsters (maybe 2 or 3?) the other day with docked tails. It would be interesting to know if the prohibition against docking in France is a registry thing or an actual law. Dana boomer (talk) 19:26, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed.  I reread some of the stuff I sourced for the tail article, I guess quite a few nations in Europe HAVE banned it and (as per the source) 11 states in the US.  However, not sure if they are dogs and horses, or just one or the other.  The info on dogs is here: Docking_(dog)#Legal_status.  I suspect that for this article, the issue is if the various Percheron registries have taken a stand, in contrast to national laws affecting all horses.  Montanabw(talk) 21:21, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sport use image 

message: Great article. Anyone have an objection to a Milhist tag? The connection is particularly strong for this breed. - Dank (push to talk) 15:14, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! No objections from me... Dana boomer (talk) 15:59, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: My only concern is separating myth from reality.  The draft breeds, per se, were NOT the Destriers of the medieval knight, which were animals more like the modern Andalusian horse.  Some destriers may have been crossbred with work animals after the decline of the armored knight and thus be in the pedigree of some of the livlier draft breeds, such as the Percheron, which has more light horse ancestry than most.  Montanabw(talk) 19:36, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that's a good point ... I got that from "draft horse", but it might not be clear to some. - Dank (push to talk) 19:38, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There's also the point that Percherons were used extensively in wars as a pulling horse (artillery, ambulances, supply wagons, etc), so I think that it has seen plenty of use in wars...just not necessarily as a riding horse. Either way, tag or not, no biggie to me. Dana boomer (talk) 23:20, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Milhist 

message: Wonder if any of these would be an improvement to anything already there?  (Be nice to have one black) Montanabw(talk) 23:37, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Meh. On the last one, it's a really nice horse, but we're not supposed to reverse images. (I don't feel like digging up the guideline, but it was somewhere in the image pages, last I checked.) I don't know about some of the others...first doesn't have a head, next two have busy backgrounds, fourth I agree is probably a cross. Last two are quite nice. We could move the 1904 drawing up a section, add the driving shot in its place and replace the current shot of the stud partially obscured by the handler in the 20th and 21st centuries section with the last in your gallery above. Thoughts? Dana boomer (talk) 00:26, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

text: That would work, I think. Go for it if the licensing checks out! Montanabw(talk) 02:39, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the topic of photo changing 

message: *Oppose They are similar but distinct. Each race has its own society and studbook. The French Wikipedia has pages for each. Moonraker (talk) 01:10, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Note: This user has since been blocked as a sock. Dana boomer (talk) 21:02, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Not if it's a content fork.  We've had debates over some other breeds where different nations have slightly different bloodline groups, but the same origins. Tsaag has some good things to say, but they seem to confirm the direction I am leaning, which is to have fewer strong articles than a bunch of content forks.  But I am open to further input from those who study these sorts of things.  Montanabw(talk) 20:03, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

text: * Is there anyone else with an opinion here? I would still be interested to know if my understanding (that they were originally bred from Percherons and since merged back into the Percheron breed) is correct. If so, that makes them different from other articles we have on extinct breeds, which started out as their own breed and later died out/were merged into other breeds. Dana boomer (talk) 21:02, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *I suspect that it's you and me and Tsaag.  My take is that it is a sub-group of the Percheron, whether extinct or not, and best merged into this article, somehow, sort of like the Alter Real, though not precisely the same thing.  Suspect it's a lot like French wines, same grape grown in a different province MUST be a TOTALLY different sort of wine! (LOL!)  Montanabw(talk) 20:39, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed merger with [[Augeron horse]]

message: 74.79.145.29 (talk) 00:32, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silver Shadows Sheik 

message: Reading the merger discussion, it's clear I was wrong to say "They are similar but distinct. Each race has its own society and studbook." It would have been better to say "They were similar but distinct. Each race had its own society and studbook." I stand by the word "race", which has been given such a use in English since at least the 16th century, and also by my view that notability is an important test.  I don't like the words "subgroup" or "subtype", which seem to me to be rather alien here. Dana boomer said above "Augeron can have its own section in the Percheron article...", and I do not think such a section should be named "Subtypes". If any other related races of horse are to be covered in the article, each surely merits its own section. Moonraker (talk) 03:43, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. Dana boomer (talk) 11:50, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree, the context clearly notes two other subtypes with other names subsumed under the Augeron. (BTW, don't lecture us on terminology, we call these differences a "breed" not a "race" you could, I suppose, also say "bloodline" here)   It appears that the issue was that anything not bred in Perche couldn't be called a "Perheron," so there is no need, IMHO, for every separate bloodline bred in every separate part of the planet to get its own section.  There is a similar precedent in other breed articles where a major subgroup or subtype exists that is a bloodline group within a larger breed.  Montanabw(talk) 18:46, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the other two were just different names for the same type, from my reading, with the Augeron being the most common name. Just like "The Poitevin, also called Mulassier," that we have in another article - same thing, just different names. For the moment, I think a subsection for the type is fine, since we just have the one. However, there may have been other types merged at the same time (in the 1960s), and researching this is on my to-do list. If this is true, then the section would have to be rewritten or added to include these other types, and the section header may have to be changed at that point. Dana boomer (talk) 00:17, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: As the Augeron seems to me to be notable, even if extinct, I still think it merits its own page, but that's only my view. If a notable horse is to be merged here, I should have thought it deserves its own section. But again, only my view. I certainly agree with Dana boomer that only one kind of horse is dealt with in the new section at the moment. Moonraker (talk) 02:52, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I can live with that, I suppose.  I only note that we don't distinguish the Alter Real from the Lusitanos nor the Carthusian strain under in Andalusian by named sections, both are discussed under "strains and sub-types."  We have a precedent in the breed articles, and in those cases, they are also notable and their aficionados also once made much of wanting a separate (small, stubby) article on them prior to the merge.  That's all. I just have a thing about people wanting to spin off new "breeds" when it's just a different bloodline...oh well.  (On that note, anyone want to help me merge all eight Indonesian pony "breed" articles - where all eight have similar ancestry, just landed on different islands -  into just one good article, BTW?  LOL) Montanabw(talk) 16:35, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Foster's rule doesn't apply here, but similar forces come into play from the choices made by breeders. To say "just landed on different islands" rather overlooks the dynamics for adaptation created by island conditions. Moonraker (talk) 17:11, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I agree there were probably some differences so long as the different herds weren't merged genetically, I just think ghat one good article beats eight stubs.  Montanabw(talk) 21:25, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: French article about Augeron is a good article. By the way, 7 disstinct beeds or types have been merged with Percheron in 1966, and 3 have their own article on the fr Wikipédia : Augeron (good article), Berrichon (good article, with drawings of the breed) and Nivernais (featured article, with a lot of photos)--Tsaag Valren (talk) 22:43, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Renaming of section to "Augerons"

message: You might also add a reference that the Percheron breed makes up the a large part of the horses used by the U.S. Army Caisson Platoon, part of The Third U.S. Infantry Regiment (The Old Guard) for ceremonies at Arlington National Cemetery and Washington, DC. Some of the larger "wheel" horses are full-bred Percherons, whereas many others are the offspring of Percherons cross-bred with Morgans and other lighter breeds. (Note: I report this from first-hand experience, having commanded that unit from 2006 to 2008.) Morin11a (talk) 20:59, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find a source that we can use to verify this information, that would be interesting.  We have to have an outside, printed source, though... does the regiment have a web site or anything like that?  Montanabw(talk) 06:30, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition to Uses 

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thread_title:  External links modified