Talk:Götaland theory

message: === Opposing notes of interest for not placing Ubsola in Uppland ===
Several interesting notes have been raised against the common theory of Svealand being the ancient home of Sveas and the Ása cult, e.g. the following:
1
In some ancient sources (Tacitus' Germania), the tribe or country of Suiones, Sveoner, or Sveas, are said to be living side by side with a different people, the Sitones, who are ruled and governed by women. Near the old town Sigtuna (being most certainly proven to have existed at the time of Olof Skotkonung) an ancient rune stone have been found, stating the name sithone.
2
The same type of burial customs, the big mounds containing ashes in an urn, is not known in other parts of south and middle Sweden prior to the big mounds in Gamla Uppsala, but there are in fact the same type of mounds found further to the north, securely dated to the 3rd century A.D. Similar mounds are also dated to 200–300 A.D. in western Norway. This might indicate that the customs of big mounds had come from the north of Sweden to the south, rather than the opposite as could be expected for an expanding tribe of Sveas in Uppland. In fact, the burial customs could well indicate that they are the remains of the Sitones, perhaps stemming from the Bronze Age since the burial customs correspond with those of the urn field culture in Europe during the younger bronze age and pre-Roman Iron Age.
3
When Odin came to the kingdom of Gylfi, he got the land by help of Gefjon, who "ploughed the land westwards into the sea, leaving a whole in the land that became a sea", and that this land became Sjælland, said to be the increase of Denmark. Furthermore, the myth says that "bays of Sjælland lies like capes in the sea". Even today, any professional would find it hard to fit Sjælland of Denmark into Mälaren of Sweden.With Lake Vänern bordering Västergötland, on the other hand, it is not at all hard to see the similarities of Sjælland as being "taken from the land" of Sweden.How can any bit of land from Mälaren be drawn westwards into the sea—crossing the whole landmasses of Sweden—and become Sjælland?(Naturally, the inclination here is not that the land was actually taken from Sweden to form Sjælland, but rather that the land the invaders/immigrants accomplished was exchanged for Sjælland.)
According to Jordanes, the Danes expanded— or were forced—southwards, in turn forcing the Heruliis (a German tribe, thought to be located at Själland around the first century A.D.) to emigrate southwards.
4
Written in English, the name Logen/Lagen for the great sea in Snorri's sagas is very easily deducted to be just that, not a name of a special lake, but the only real notion needed; it is the lake—the greatest of them all, Vänern. Is it possible that Snorre got the name Mälaren to mean Logen due to the fact that Sigtuna, and Birka, was located here...?
5
Adam of Bremen also described the trade center Birka, as the town where the first bishop Ansgar during the 9th century was supposed to have come to declare Christianity among the heathen people of the north.
 
He seems to have had several sources, but the places referred to in these sources must not necessarily have been the same.
One theory states that the epithet Birka in fact rather defines a general market location, rather than being the name of a specific town.
The trade town was supposedly placed with a harbor to the north, facing the Baltic Sea—which is not really the case for Birka at Björkön in Mälaren.
Furthermore, there are several known trade centers in ancient Sweden, and the one at Björkön is not necessarily the one referred to by Adam of Bremen. One possible location is Köpingsvik in the county of Öland in the Baltic Sea, that not only has several remains from the 9th and 11th century, but actually lies "in a bay to the north into the Baltic Sea".
#Gamla Uppsala holds several mounds, of which the most famous, the three great mounds known as the kings' mounds are visible from far away. These are said to be the mounds of three famous mythological kings, Ane (Aun), his son Egil—also known as Ongentheow and sometimes Angantyr—(father of Ottar and Ale), Adils (Ottar's son), living sometimes around 450–550 A.D. 
#Also, it is an indisputable fact that the county of Uppland holds several findings from around the Iron Age that indicate that a kingdom was ruled from here.
#Furthermore, an often named place in the myths and sagas is Fyris Wolds, a vast field near the temple site of Uppsala. The river passing the modern city of Uppsala is in fact called the Fyris (Fyrisån). Fyris survives as the name of a mediaeval royal estate on the location and in the names of two small lakes. The application of the form to the river, is however from the 17th century.
#In Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla, the Ynglinga saga being part of the history of ancient Norwegian kings, the place Ubsola (Upsalum) is said to be located by the lake Lagen/Logen, which Snorri means should be the lake Mälaren, dividing Uppland and Södermanland and hosting the capital of Sweden, Stockholm, at its eastern shores. The ancestor of the Ynglinga family is said to be Frey, the God that came to Scandinavia together with Odin. When Odin found the place to be, he named that country (or place, castle, town...) Sigtuna. In the days of Snorri, this town existed (and is archeologically proven to have existed around 1000 A.D.) to the north of Mälaren. 
#The same location is pointed out by Adam of Bremen, who was a bishop in Hamburg that wrote the history of the domain of northern Europe, including Scandinavia until Lund was given an archbishop seat in the 12th century.  However, he did not explicitly state that the temple was located in Uppland.
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This kind of promoting serves no purpose on Wikipedia. / Fred-Chess 21:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: remove from article

message: Several interesting notes have been raised against the common theory of Svealand being the ancient home of Sveas and the Ása cult, e.g. the following:
1
In some ancient sources (Tacitus' Germania), the tribe or country of Suiones, Sveoner, or Sveas, are said to be living side by side with a different people, the Sitones, who are ruled and governed by women. Near the old town Sigtuna (being most certainly proven to have existed at the time of Olof Skotkonung) an ancient rune stone have been found, stating the name sithone.
2
The same type of burial customs, the big mounds containing ashes in an urn, is not known in other parts of south and middle Sweden prior to the big mounds in Gamla Uppsala, but there are in fact the same type of mounds found further to the north, securely dated to the 3rd century A.D. Similar mounds are also dated to 200–300 A.D. in western Norway. This might indicate that the customs of big mounds had come from the north of Sweden to the south, rather than the opposite as could be expected for an expanding tribe of Sveas in Uppland. In fact, the burial customs could well indicate that they are the remains of the Sitones, perhaps stemming from the Bronze Age since the burial customs correspond with those of the urn field culture in Europe during the younger bronze age and pre-Roman Iron Age.
3
When Odin came to the kingdom of Gylfi, he got the land by help of Gefjon, who "ploughed the land westwards into the sea, leaving a whole in the land that became a sea", and that this land became Sjælland, said to be the increase of Denmark. Furthermore, the myth says that "bays of Sjælland lies like capes in the sea". Even today, any professional would find it hard to fit Sjælland of Denmark into Mälaren of Sweden.With Lake Vänern bordering Västergötland, on the other hand, it is not at all hard to see the similarities of Sjælland as being "taken from the land" of Sweden.How can any bit of land from Mälaren be drawn westwards into the sea—crossing the whole landmasses of Sweden—and become Sjælland?(Naturally, the inclination here is not that the land was actually taken from Sweden to form Sjælland, but rather that the land the invaders/immigrants accomplished was exchanged for Sjælland.)
According to Jordanes, the Danes expanded— or were forced—southwards, in turn forcing the Heruliis (a German tribe, thought to be located at Själland around the first century A.D.) to emigrate southwards.
4
Written in English, the name Logen/Lagen for the great sea in Snorri's sagas is very easily deducted to be just that, not a name of a special lake, but the only real notion needed; it is the lake—the greatest of them all, Vänern. Is it possible that Snorre got the name Mälaren to mean Logen due to the fact that Sigtuna, and Birka, was located here...?
5
Adam of Bremen also described the trade center Birka, as the town where the first bishop Ansgar during the 9th century was supposed to have come to declare Christianity among the heathen people of the north.
 
He seems to have had several sources, but the places referred to in these sources must not necessarily have been the same.
One theory states that the epithet Birka in fact rather defines a general market location, rather than being the name of a specific town.
The trade town was supposedly placed with a harbor to the north, facing the Baltic Sea—which is not really the case for Birka at Björkön in Mälaren.
Furthermore, there are several known trade centers in ancient Sweden, and the one at Björkön is not necessarily the one referred to by Adam of Bremen. One possible location is Köpingsvik in the county of Öland in the Baltic Sea, that not only has several remains from the 9th and 11th century, but actually lies "in a bay to the north into the Baltic Sea".
#Gamla Uppsala holds several mounds, of which the most famous, the three great mounds known as the kings' mounds are visible from far away. These are said to be the mounds of three famous mythological kings, Ane (Aun), his son Egil—also known as Ongentheow and sometimes Angantyr—(father of Ottar and Ale), Adils (Ottar's son), living sometimes around 450–550 A.D. 
#Also, it is an indisputable fact that the county of Uppland holds several findings from around the Iron Age that indicate that a kingdom was ruled from here.
#Furthermore, an often named place in the myths and sagas is Fyris Wolds, a vast field near the temple site of Uppsala. The river passing the modern city of Uppsala is in fact called the Fyris (Fyrisån). Fyris survives as the name of a mediaeval royal estate on the location and in the names of two small lakes. The application of the form to the river, is however from the 17th century.
#In Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla, the Ynglinga saga being part of the history of ancient Norwegian kings, the place Ubsola (Upsalum) is said to be located by the lake Lagen/Logen, which Snorri means should be the lake Mälaren, dividing Uppland and Södermanland and hosting the capital of Sweden, Stockholm, at its eastern shores. The ancestor of the Ynglinga family is said to be Frey, the God that came to Scandinavia together with Odin. When Odin found the place to be, he named that country (or place, castle, town...) Sigtuna. In the days of Snorri, this town existed (and is archeologically proven to have existed around 1000 A.D.) to the north of Mälaren. 
#The same location is pointed out by Adam of Bremen, who was a bishop in Hamburg that wrote the history of the domain of northern Europe, including Scandinavia until Lund was given an archbishop seat in the 12th century.  However, he did not explicitly state that the temple was located in Uppland.
----
This kind of promoting serves no purpose on Wikipedia. / Fred-Chess 21:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opposing notes of interest for ''not'' placing Ubsola in Uppland