Talk:St. James Infirmary Blues

message: Is it worth mentioning other notable singers who've performed the song? There are a number written into the article already, but I was curious if I should include Josh White.
Someone should.  If not you or I, who?  JimCubb 22:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other notable singers? 

message: Does anyone know if the historic location that this song's title is based on isn't the Saint James Infirmary in Milwaukee, Wisconsin? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jimmithy (talk • contribs) 06:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It more likely is referring to St James Hospital in Liverpool (England) --David Broadfoot 02:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I always assumed it was in New Orleans, so associated with drinking, gambling, prostitution, and of course, early jazz.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.189.173.205 (talk) 01:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Isn't the song more likely referring to the Civil War hospital in New Orleans, at the St. James Hotel?  Mathew5000 (talk) 01:10, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Location of Infirmary 

message: This song has a long and relatively well documented history going back to the 18th century, and this is not thoroughly documented at the moment in Wikipedia.  Since in my opinion, this history is what makes this collection of songs so interesting, I think it is worthy of inclusion here.  I expanded a little bit on this history in my update, and provided a starting reference. (outis9)
I would much prefer that the main article for this collection of songs be The_Unfortunate_Rake, rather than the this current article St_James_Infirmary_Blues, even though St_James_Infirmary_Blues is perhaps the most famous version.  Folding the background and history into The_Unfortunate_Rake makes it easier to introduce all the variations which spring from The_Unfortunate_Rake in a cleaner way.  However this is a significant change, so I simply added the history to St_James_Infirmary_Blues. (outis9)
It's like the weather: everyone complains about this section of the article, but no one does anything about it!
I have traced this digression back to a single Wikipeian's edits many years ago--the first and last she ever made on Wikipedia. They were branded "vandalism" at the time and although that was removed, this section of the article has been criticized multiple times since.  I wrote to the original contributor several weeks ago, asking if she minded my deleting it all, and have received no response.
Although, I originally planned to delete the entire section, but maybe your suggestion of moving it to the existing Unfortunate Rake article is a better one. I may do that soon, and let the guardians of that article decide whether it's worth keeping there or not.  (I'll explain in the talk section over there what I'm doing and why.)
On the other hand, I'm not sure I want to take the blame for perpetuating this tedious debate, and don't really want to edit it.  I will give it more thought, and would be grateful for advice about what's best to do, Sprucegrouse (talk) 11:50, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structural Comments 

message: Lots of people have recorded and/or performed this song.  Therefore, we need some standard of notability to decide who should be mentioned in the article and who should not.  If we list every performer, the article would become unwieldy.  In the best scenario, rather than just a litany of names, we would have some detail as to when the recording was made, what album it appeared on, whether it was recorded more than once, if the particular performer put their own individual "stamp" on it (as is the case, for example, with The Animals recording of "House of the Rising Sun"), etc.  We also need sources for any and all of this.  What we do not need are more names added to the "performers" section, certainly not without sources. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 23:02, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability 

message: Hello. I have been visiting this Wikipedia page every now and again over the past few years, and can't help but note that it is decreasingly about "St. James Infirmary," and increasingly about "The Unfortunate Rake." Since there can be little direct relationship between "St. James Infirmary" and "The Unfortunate Rake," the question of the latter's validity as a traditional song can't matter much ... at least, not in relationship to SJI. This Wikipedia article has somehow gotten off the tracks, and can't be of much use to anyone interested in the history of the song this entry is ostensibly about.
Bookok (talk) 20:39, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relation to "The Unfortunate Rake" 

message: Here is my post and a reply.
:A happening at St. James Infirmary Blues‎
:I am very close to being in a edit war with User: TheOldJacobite concerning the St. James Infirmary Blues‎ article. I posted that the song was used in a certain movie, s/he removed it as being not notable. I disagreed and would have discussed it with him (seems more like a guy than not) on his talk page, but seemed to be blocked from doing so. I reposted the section, adding a reference from IMDB that had the song in the movie. He undid that. It seems to me that being on a movie soundtrack is notable enough to be listed in the “also ran” section of the article, but me posting again and he removing again gets us to three reverts and who wants that? So here I am, what happens next? Is this the right page to post this? Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 22:10, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: l'd open a discussion on the talk page of the article. User:amaliel (talk) 23:32, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Consider it done. Carptrash (talk) 23:38, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No, because those films, those performances, and those performers all are notable.  In the case of the example you have added, none of this is true.  The mere fact that the film takes place in New Orleans indicates that music is going to be heard and musicians seen, but that does not convey automatic significance. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 19:02, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Carptrash, I see that, despite the comments above, you reinserted this information, but still have not provided a source that proves notability.  Despite Gamaliel's lame comment below, you actually do have to prove notability.  It is not enough to prove that the song was used in that movie, as Richhoncho said above, you have to show that this use was notable.  You have not done so. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 03:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a large paragraph featuring covers with about 39 musicians listed, with no sources offered to demonstrate notability.  If anything, there's now more demonstrated notability about this particular use of the song then most of the material in that section. Gamaliel (talk) 05:03, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That argument proves nothing.  That other content in that section needs to be sourced is a problem we should address.  But, that says nothing about this particular example, which is not notable.  All those sources prove is that the song was used in the movie.  So what?  Lots of songs are used in lots of movies, and that does not make any of them notable. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 14:42, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: So you'll edit war to remove this sourced content and ignore the unsourced content?  That makes sense. Gamaliel (talk) 17:22, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You are the one who is edit-warring.  The consensus above was that it should be excluded, then you came along.  The argument "other shit exists" proves nothing.  The references given for that particular example of the song do not prove notability, which is a policy on WP. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 17:45, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It takes two to edit war.  Gamaliel (talk) 17:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no edit war 'til you came along.  I have repeatedly stated my reasons for deletion with policy, you have not. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 04:34, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: And I just forced you to revert me, with you kicking and screaming all the way.  How dastardly of me. Gamaliel (talk) 05:12, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

text: That is to say, I have not proved notability to your satisfaction.  Since it seems that wikipedia is created in your likeness, that is, I guess, all that matters.  I'll remove this page from my watchlist. Enjoy. Carptrash (talk) 15:08, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  I posted this on an "Edit warring" board 

message: Given some of the contentious history behind this entry, I would like to run this by anyone who may be paying attention before attempting to edit the page itself.
1. Dave Van Ronk -- given that a redirection to the Van Ronk album St. James Infirmary appears at the top of this entry, would it not be worth mentioning his version of the song as well as his performance of it at a 1997 concert at Wolf Trap honoring Harry Smith's Anthology of Folk Music? If no one objects, I'd like to add these notable versions.
2. Lily Tomlin with Howard Shore's All Nurse SNL Band -- surely a notable performance of the song in the very first season of Saturday Night Live (this was the first time I ever heard the song and loved it ever since).
3. Jimmie Rodgers -- In the current article, there is a reference to Jorma Kaukonen doing a version of the song but mistakenly crediting it to Jimmie Rodgers. In fact, Jorma's version is based on the Jimmie Rodgers version, which is not otherwise mentioned in the article. Rodgers recorded a version of the song in 1930 and took credit for it as arranger, which was later erroneously changed by his publishing company to composer. The "arranger" was in response to litigation from Irving Mills, but Mills as copyright holder never noticed or at least never objected to the later switch to Rodgers as composer. All of this appears in Appendix C of the Robert W. Harwood book cited in a number of other places in this article. I believe the Jorma Kaukonen cover should be corrected and the Jimmie Rodgers version added.
BJ9RW (talk) 05:02, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jimmie Rodgers, Dave Van Ronk, Lily Tomlin/SNL 

message: Having read Bob Harwood's excellent book, I have been tracing back references, starting with those on the Folkways Liner Notes.  I am hoping to have some informed discussion with a view to sharpening up this entry, especially as it misled me when I was in my early stages of work on this topic! 
1 There is absolutely no evidence that the words 'St James' Hospital' (or infirmary) were used in the British Isles prior to the visit of Cecil Sharp to the Appalachians. By evidence I mean either a) a broadsheet containing those words or b) a song collected with those words. Therefore, this whole business of trying to work out where the original hospital was is futile.  It is also based on an unstated and unexamined belief that the song must refer to a real place, when it might just as well refer to a made-up place.  I am aware that there is a whole tradition of people saying, often in journals with credible sounding names (but, not apparently academic standards in terms of evidence), that there was such a song in the British Isles.  I have spent months tracing back references and it all comes down to nothing.  One person cites as an authority another person who provided no evidence, who cites as an authority another person who provided no evidence ....  The broadsheet versions use 'Lock hospital', a generic term dating from 17something or other, and which, according to my 20 volume Oxford Dictionary was never used to mean leprosy hospital. The single word term 'The Lock' referred to a specific hospital in Southward which did treat Lepers and isolate them presumably under lock and key if need be? Lock hospitals were places where women could be imprisoned and treated by force under notorious 19th century laws. There was a programme of building them in the late 19th century because of concerns about military personal having VD and taking time off with it. The lock hospitals and the laws related only to specific garrison towns. 
2. Just as significantly, I have found no evidence of a song called The Unfortunate Rake being sung in the British Isles. Broadsheet after broadsheet has the title The Unfortunate Lad.  I think this must be an American version, but again, the sources provide no evidence. Surely if such a thing existed, somebody would know where it was. You can search various online web sites without finding it, though you can find a tune of the same name, which seems to be unrelated.  All kinds of cultural artefacts related to 'rakes' at one time. Pictures, etc.  
3 The belief that English versions were called St James Hospital arises from Cecil Sharp and Maud Karpeles' visit to the USA.  That is where they found a lady in Dewey singing a song about St James Hospital.  When Karpeles got back, she was involved with the English Folk Song Society/English Folk Dance and Song Society and used the heading St James Hospital above two versions neither of which made reference to such a hospital. I think this may have been used as evidence that the songs had that name, but it is plain that this is not the case.  Having read Mackenzie's article about a Nova Scotia version, she also cites that. The title makes the links.  So one version in Dewey, one in Nova Scotia, but no evidence whatsoever that those words were sung in England.  If there is such direct evidence it would be nice to know what it is and where it is!  If the belief that it was sung is just an inference drawn from the data, then perhaps the article should say so. 
4 The belief that they were also comes from a Folkways LP on which A L Lloyd sang a song he called 'The Unfortunate Rake' and which he begins with St James Hospital.  In an article referenced in the liner notes he refers to a Such Broadside.  There are two such broadsides. Neither is called The Unfortunate Rake: both are called The Unfortunate Lad. Both refer to a Lock hospital, not St James. Neither refer to laurel. More clarity might be available from the notes to the first LP this song was issued on. These are online but not legible, however he does admit to having changed some of the words to the songs.  Internet site after site one finds Lloyd's words quoted as 'gospel' in terms of the version sung in the 19th century, and at the end of the day, there is no evidence that it was, and moreover, Lloyd is notoriously unreliable and lax about providing references/sources/the whole truth. 
5 Goldstein claims Lloyd is singing a broadsheet version, and cites Lloyd's Sing article. Whether Lloyd ever directly told Goldstein it was a broadsheet version, or whether Goldstein jumped to that conclusion, who knows?  But who would believe what it says in liner notes? In terms of semiotics, the whole thing is clearly designed visually to give an appearance of authenticity: that is what Goldstein's business was after all. This is what he was selling, having imbibed the 'folkloric paradigm' which has done so much to make  us see 20th century US music through blinkers, or racially skin-coloured spectacles if you like, as evidenced by Lloyd's odd statement that St James is not a 'true' Negro song. What would such a think look like? The whole idea is a) distasteful b) bonkers.  Now I am ranting, but my point is that wiki is supposed to present facts, and it would appear that this article may be presenting a myth created by folklorists on both sides of the Atlantic, many of whom were selling products (including Lloyd who was selling his and Edwards' version). 
6 On the title 'The Unfortunate Rake': this appears in the literature in an early EFSS article, where it is noted as a tune for which no words are known, and the author guesses that perhaps the words might be those for The Unfortunate Lad'. None of the early versions that I have seen use this title, though it is taken up by the folklorists, including Lodewick and Lloyd as well as Harwood.
Kate Mash (talk) 11:56, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apparent Lack of Evidence to Support Assertions Made in Article. Can anybody provide this? 

message: Lyrically, I can see how the song may have been influenced to a degree by the Unfortunate Rake.  Musically, the tune is quite different.  It's entirely possible someone heard the tune, liked it, and put words to it in the tradition of the Rake, meaning that this article's namesake is actually a fusion of two otherwise unrelated works of music.  The tune is very similar to a a small section of "Charleston Cabin," though drawn out into a full song with tragic lyrics added in St. James Infirmary Blues.  73.215.211.84 (talk) 14:14, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Different Parent Songs for Lyrics and Music 

message: Hello
There are some citation needed tags in places where it seems to me that the source is clear in the text.
These tags are added to quotations from Bert Lloyd articles.
Maybe I didn't make it clear which quotation is from which article.
I'll check.
Tjaml upi  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kate Mash (talk • contribs) 14:01, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation Needed tag 

message: Current text:
:'Lloyd claims that a song collected by Cecil Sharp in the Appalachians in 1918 which contains the words "St James Hospital" is the parent song and that it looks like an elder relative of "The Dying Cowboy".'
The lyrics quoted in support don't resemble "The Dying Cowboy", aka "Bury Me Not on the Lone Prairie", so much as "The Cowboy's Lament", aka "Streets of Laredo". Somebody who knows care to correct this? — Wegesrand (talk) 11:07, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The Dying Cowboy" --> "The Cowboy's Lament"? 

message: According to LyricFind, including "corner of the square" in a St. James infirmary lyric search, accessed through google 2021 Sep. 5, Ramblin' Jack Elliott started the song with two introductory stanzas that made the singer a storyteller relating a story: 
It was down in Old Joe's barroom, 
On the corner by the square, 
The usual crowd was assembled 
And big Joe McKinney was there.
He was standing at my shoulder.
His eyes were bloodshot red; 
He turned to the crowd around him, 
These are the very words he said:
[then starts, "I went down to St. James infirmary..."]
I think this story-within-a-story version is wonderful, interesting, and at least relevant enough to include in the page.
I believe I did a lyrics search on Google a few years ago and the predominant hit included the story-within-a-story intro. As of Sep. 2021, this is no longer the case. I am certainly concerned that Wikipedia's omission of these introductory stanzas may be distorting the history of the song or at least making it more difficult to follow. I assert this further argues for its inclusion.  Thank you for your consideration. ThePirateCaptain (talk) 18:07, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:   Exclusion of the Storyteller and Alternate Version 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:22, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Louis Armstrong lyrics [more or less] plus a last verse viz.
When I die, give me 6 crap shooting pall bearers,
and a chorus girl to sing me a song
and if anyone should ask you who goes there
tell em I died from the St James infirmary blues… Luberan (talk) 08:40, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lyrics- Unfortunately I don't have a source, just a memory of 60 years ago 

message: I want to update the links to reference this book, as the links from the blog are now dead
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Letters_from_New_Orleans/FHiiDuAg0bIC?hl=en&gbpv=0 Tovedetered (talk) 17:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  St. James Infirmary Book