Talk:Thanksgiving/Archive 2

message: Franklin D. Rooseesvelt moved Thanksgiving to the THIRD Thursday of November to lengthen the Christmas season. It has not been on the 4th Tursday of the month for decades.
:Uh, who said Thanksgiving is on the third Thursday of November?!  You must be reading a lot of lies and not any books lately! Get a clue! --Angeldeb82 23:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The wrong date is given 

message: Do these two holidays have so much in common that they should be in the same article? I really think they need to be broken out to separate ones. The origins are completely different. Mapetite526 17:56, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And it should be mentionned somewhere that in french Canada, or at least in Quebec, Thanksgiving (in french: Action de grâce) is mostly "just another holiday", Christmas and New Year's day being the times when families are reuniting.  It is much less celebrated than in english Canada or the United States.  (See also  in the "Thanksgiving in Canada" section, but as a Quebecer, I can tell you that none of my friends, collegues or family members "celebrates" thanksgiving) Sébastien Savard 21:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree.  The entire article seems to consist of sections subdivided into "American" and "Canadian".  Why not just have 2 articles:  Thankgiving (United States) and Thanksgiving (Canada)?  This page could just be a disambiguation page. --PurpleRain 21:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  US versus Canadian holidays 

message: I've removed the following text, as it lacks sources:
During the 16th and 17th centuries, Thanksgiving was considered 'The Witches' Holiday', celebrating thanks in rememberance of evils past and evils to come. They celebrated by sacrificing animals and conjuring spirits. This is one of the main reasons why Thanksgiving is celebrated after Halloween.
It can go back if there are trustworthy citations that can be provided, but "Thanksgiving is actually evil" can't stand without evidence backing that assertion up.  JDoorjam     Talk 19:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Speaking of "Thanksgiving is evil", Jack Chick claims the so-called "evils" of Thanksgiving, as described in his Chick tract The Missing Day.  Here's the link:   And here's another:  --Angeldeb82 01:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Jack Chick is a loony, and I'm being insulting to loonies when I say that.Dogface 21:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah.  He just thinks Thanksgiving is a religious holiday that is "attacked by pagans and heathens" that make us not thankful for God but for "Mom, beer, and apple pie", which is a sin, and that when a nation forgets God and stops giving thanks, then it will be "brought to judgment", as it is written in the Bible, "The wicked will depart for the netherworld, with all the nations that forget God." (Psalm 9:18, NAB) What an idiot who doesn't know that Thanksgiving is not just a religious but a national holiday, wouldn't you say? --Angeldeb82 03:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed "Witches Holiday" language 

message: I added the item about the night before being a popular night to go out drinking because it is a common knowledge here in the Northeast, something that if mentioned in a news article, would only be seen in passing and not the main thrust of it.
:I have removed it. It is unsourced and has been removed once already for the same reason. Please sign your statements on talk pages. Mapetite526 16:35, 12 
October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I dont think of you as an informed arbiter of what should be on this article. I think I will put my item back up.
-Attackoftheclones
::But this time you included a source, which because I was trying to be helpful, I moved to the appropriate edit so it won't get deleted again. Hmm and I did it before I read your comment. Mapetite526 21:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Citation for Night Before Item 

message: Some of the triviais really pushing the limits of relevance, especially: * the last show of "The Band"
* it might be a favorite theme for T.V. shows, but highlighting series (as opposed to perhaps historically significant episodes)?
--Belg4mit 02:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia 

message: Why does the Traditional celebration section start with the Macy's parade? And then followed up with the post-holiday shopping? Which is followed by the not-unimportant but nevertheless incidental football? Only after all that is the traditional feasting mentioned (but not the family gatherings). -Freekee 02:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paragraph ordering 

message: I was under the impression that this was a festival in the Christian tradition? Am I wrong? (Confused Brit) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.58.233.129 (talk • contribs) 10:05, 23 November 2006   (UTC)
:I think you can be simultaneously thankful to God and thankful to those helping you here on Earth, can't you? —Angr 10:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course not everyone's celebration of Thanksgiving is religious, but neither is everyone's celebration of Christmas. But Thanksgiving is in origin a religious holiday, and it remains a religious holiday for a great number of people -- just not a specifically Christian holiday, which is what distinguishes it from other secularized religious holidays like Christmas and Easter. I'm always astonished when I encounter atheists who celebrate Thanksgiving, because I can't help but wonder who precisely they're being thankful to. —Angr 19:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: "To be thankful" isn't passive. Did you actually read English passive voice ("passive tense" means nothing at all)? Thankful is an adjective, not a verb form. And whether "thankful" grammatically needs its argument to be explicit, pragmatically you can't feel thankful without directing it toward someone. The Puritans were incidentally not "fleeing from religion" but rather fleeing from religious persecution, to a place where they would be free to practice their own (extremely strict and uncompromising) religion without being hassled by people whose views they considered too "worldly". Of course atheists can feel thankful -- toward other people, or toward themselves -- but you hardly need to set aside a special day for that. —Angr 09:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why do you set aside a special day for it?  Your argument makes no sense from an atheists perspective.  Belief in God is a personal choice, and essentially to atheists when you thank god, you're just thanking an illusory being. Effectively, you're not thanking anyone either.  So, you can have your version of Thanksgiving, and atheists will have theres.  We'd change the name from Thanksgiving to "Sit down with the family and have a big dinner" Day but frankly that's too much work and it already has a name.  
It should be a thank the First Nations day. Yeah the White Man should give thanks to the natives for dying when the Europeans infected them with disease for which they had no immunities, and for the fact that because they did not live in crowded slums as the Europeans were accustomed to, the 'Indians' did not have rampant diseases of their own to give back... thanks for giving us no disease.
And thanks for allowing some of the poor wretches who stumbled off the boat and immediately digging random holes in search of gold, thanks to the local tribespeople for hiring them as servants... thanks for the employment opportunities.
And thanks that there were native graves to rob of pots and bowls, and thanks for the fresher corpses that the barbaric Europeans could feast upon as cannibals so as not to starve, thanks for the dishes and food.
And thanks to Squanto for his time as a slave in England, during which he learned the language to teach agriculture to the ignorant savages from across the sea. the Europeans who murdered his people and created a settlement in what had once been his own village's cropland, carved by the natives of the New World out of hardwood forests.  Thanks for clearing the land.
And thanks for teaching us about maize, now one of the world's top agribusiness staples, you can't make corn chips or steer manure without a whole lotta corn, so thanks for corn.
So as a Euro-american, let me take this moment, on behalf of the colonial imperative which led to the near total genocide of the First Americans of turtle island, to give a great big thank you for not infecting us when we infected you, for giving us jobs when we were illegal immigrants, and for welcoming us into your homes, for feeding us, giving us gifts, for tolerating our thefts, our rapes, and robberies, and murders of your people, and thanks for corn and for clearing the land for our settlements, so we could build houses where you used to grow food, and in general thanks for just dying and getting out of the way of the Europeans.  And thanks for letting us get away with teaching our children that the invaders were the hosts instead of the guests at the first thanksgiving dinner, calling them 'Pilgrims' instead of pillagers... yes God has indeed blessed our day of giving thanks.  User:Pedant 00:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thanks to Native Americans? 

message: I removed the images of westerners slaughtering/torturing natives that were added by Lentz18 on 23 November 2006 because they were not properly captioned and showed no direct relationship to Thanksgiving. If anything these should have been incorporated under a heading about criticism but more likely they should have been included on a seperate page of their own. In either case they should have been properly captioned.--Wlf211 13:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked at the source they came from; they were all about massacres/tortures in Central or South America anyway, so there was really no relation to an article about North American Thanksgiving. —Angr 13:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images from 23 November 2006 

message: To all those in the United States,
:Happy Turkey Day!
Mangez bien! → JARED (t)  14:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Happy Thanksgiving! 

message: I am no professional historian, but over the years I have repeatedly encountered a view of Thanksgiving that goes something like this: the first event was a multicultural celebration of some sort, with settlers thankful for their survival and inviting the indigenous folks for either political, celebratory or mixed reasons, but then, after 1621, the holiday lapsed, and may have next come up in the context of a massacre of 700 Pequot men, women and children.  I don't have the original source but an article at Independent Media Center includes the following, which I have seen previously:
"William Newell, a Penobscot Indian and former chair of the anthropology department of the University of Connecticut, claims that the first Thanksgiving was not "a festive gathering of Indians and Pilgrims, but rather a celebration of the massacre of 700 Pequot men, women and children." In 1637, the Pequot tribe of Connecticut gathered for the annual Green Corn Dance ceremony. Mercenaries of the English and Dutch attacked and surrounded the village; burning down everything and shooting whomever try to escape. The next day, Newell notes, the Governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony declared: "A day of Thanksgiving, thanking God that they had eliminated over 700 men, women and children." It was signed into law that, "This day forth shall be a day of celebration and thanksgiving for subduing the Pequots." Most Americans believe Thanksgiving was this wonderful dinner and harvest celebration. The truth is the "Thanksgiving dinner" was invented both to instill a false pride in Americans and to cover up the massacre."
http://indy.pabn.org/archives/213thank.shtml
Why wouldn't this be mentioned in the main article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Michaeljwsiegel (talk • contribs) 15:04, 23 November 2006   (UTC)
:If there are reliable sources for it, it could be alluded to, although the article is more about the modern holiday than about 17th century American history. —Angr 15:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why no mention of Thanksgiving Day massacres? 

message: Ugh. I am a non-American and came here to know about Thanksgiving Day. Pretty annoyed at the page having been vandalised by the likes of teenaged punks apparently. Requesting a page restore and the relevant IP bans.
I have removed the offending material as I found it offensive as well.
:Thanks for noticing! Please see Help:Reverting for how to revert vandalism. —Angr 16:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page's been vandalised with random obscenities 

message: Is there a source for this, or is this a sily edit? - Narfness 18:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a silly edit, it's a longstanding tradition that the President pardons the Presidential turkey. —Angr 19:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkey Pardoning 

message: I know someone's going to take me to task over this, but take a look at the history. Oh the irony indeed that the last edit before the semi-protection was constructive and from an IP, but the vandalism has gotten a bit excessive. Unprotect it after an hour or so, or unprotect it immediately if you have a serious aversion to my move. -- tariqabjotu 18:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made a request for this page to be re-semi-protected, at least until the end of the holiday. As can be evidenced from the history, vandalism before and after the sprotect has been rampant, while during the sprotect, there was nothing. The request can be found here. –Dvandersluis 21:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-Protected 

message: Since the article consists mostly of sections divided into Canadian and American subsections, I propose that the article be split.  This page would become a disambiguation page linking to Thanksgiving (American), Thanksgiving (Canadian), and Harvest festival.  It would make each article flow a lot better and would make it easier for people to find the information they are looking for.  I suspect that most people reading this page are looking for information on either American Thanksgiving or Canadian Thanksgiving, and aren't that interested in the other. --PurpleRain 19:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to split this article according to nationality 

message: thanksgiving is on the 3rd thursday in november and not the 4th
:Today is the fourth Thursday of the month: Nov. 2, Nov. 9, Nov. 16, Nov. 23 --PurpleRain 22:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  thanksgiving 

message: Just wanted to say, have a happy thanksgiving! SupaStarGirl 13:40, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  happy thankgiving 

message: After witnessed what happened to the Native Americans, Afghanistans, Iraqis and poor guys of New Orleans, people all over the world decided that they shall celebrate Thanksgiving. We must thank George W. Bush for not invading our countries. Otherwise, we would all become badly-burned turkeys. -- Toytoy 15:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  An international holiday 

message: Could anyone explain how the holiday evolved in the English-speaking countries in general and America in particular? Why did "the early settlers" choose to celebrate it annually? It is essential that the holiday is specific to these countries, so there should be some explanation of that. --Ghirla -трёп- 19:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin 

message: "In the United Kingdom, Thanksgiving is another name for the Harvest festival,"
Can this assertion be corroborated? I'm a Brit and have never heard Harvest festival called Thanksgiving - but maybe it is in some parts of the country????????
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.104.55.241 (talk • contribs).
Yes I find this slightly strange too.  If Thanksgiving is known at all in the UK, it is known as an American festival.  This sentence needs to be removed.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.221.241.90 (talk • contribs).
As a Brit, I have never heard of Harvest Festival being called Thanksgiving here. And I would describe it as a US holiday, not American since I would associate it with the United States and not the Americas as a wh
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.12.244.204 (talk • contribs).
:Thanksgiving is definitely widely celebrated in Canada.  It is a national holiday, a day off work and school, and a chance to get together with family and friends.  I can't speak for other parts of the Americas, but it's definitely more than just the U.S.  (Also note that, at least in North America, the word "American" generally refers to someone or something from the United States.  Otherwise the terms "North American" or "South American" are used.  By contrast, "America" can refer to the U.S. (not used that way by many Canadians), or to the wider continent/continents) —PurpleRAIN 15:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  UK 

message: Under the "United States" traditions section, this comment is made: "This day is called "Black Friday" due to all of the money being transacted, causing cashiers' hands to become black."  I've heard many differing definitions for the term "Black Friday", and this is one of the least convincing.  I don't think this is true, and if it is, please cite the source.  Thanks.  Aabbbiee 16:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black Friday Definition? 

message: I have split this article into two separate articles: Thanksgiving (Canada) and Thanksgiving (United States).  This makes it easier to read for all involved, since the previous article required skipping over sections related to the other country.  This page has now become a disambiguation page.  Please review the separate articles and observe how much easier they are to read before commenting on the split. —PurpleRAIN 22:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am quite certain the vast majority of the links to Thanksgiving are for Thanksgiving (United States). This seems like an issue. -- tariqabjotu 23:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't it make more sense, then, to have them linking directly to Thanksgiving (United States) rather than a generic Thanksgiving page where a user must filter through the material to find the relevant info?  I'll begin changing the links to Thanksgiving right away.  —PurpleRAIN 14:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I've updated 95 pages so far.  There are a lot of them.  Most have been changed to Thanksgiving (United States), while a few have been changed to Thanksgiving (Canada).  A few have been left pointing to Thanksgiving, since they don't clearly reference a specific country (e.g. they are only referring to turkey dinners and family gatherings).  I will keep going on updating the links, but if other want to join in, please do.  The pages that link to Thanksgiving can be found at Special:Whatlinkshere/Thanksgiving.  I expect some links will be updated by editors of the linking pages as well, as they discover the link going to a disambiguation page. —PurpleRAIN 17:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting the article 

message: The previous page for "Thanksgiving" (without my addition) really wasn't a good Wikipedia entry.  The term 'thanksgiving' has been around a lot longer than the North American holiday.  
Dictionary.com defines 'thanksgiving' so:
1.  the act of giving thanks; grateful acknowledgment of benefits or favors, esp. to God.
2.  an expression of thanks, esp. to God.
3.  a public celebration in acknowledgment of divine favor or kindness.
4.  a day set apart for giving thanks to God.
Notice that the public celebration, and the "day set apart for giving thanks to God", are only two out of four definitions, and come bottom of the list.  I'm sure other dictionaries are not so kind to    American 'Thanksgiving' as Dictionary.com.
I came across this anomaly when I wanted to link to a page about the act of religious thanksgiving, from an article on prayer.  The most common use of the word 'thanksgiving' in the English language comes from Biblical references such as this:
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. (Phil 4:6 NIV)
I don't think that they had to eat turkey every time they wanted to say thank you to God in Biblical times! (chuckle) It seemed to me, therefore, that when a Wikipedia user clicked a link to the word 'thanksgiving' the first thing he/she should be confronted with should not be a turkey! (lol) I felt that that made a turkey out of the encyclopedia.
Anyway, I took it upon myself to write the article, and great fun I had doing it... plus ANOTHER late night!
JoJoUK2007 02:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like your addition, but I wonder if the two articles should be separate?  We might want an article for the act of Thanksgiving, and another for Thanksgiving Day.  My guess is that most often, when someone types "Thanksgiving" in the search box, they will be looking for Thanksgiving Day.  You could put a  tag at the top of Thanksgiving that redirects to Thanksgiving Day.  Thoughts? —PurpleRAIN 18:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split it again! 

message: I edited text "Although in English Canada Thanksgiving is often celebrated with family, it is also often a time for weekend getaways for couples to observe the autumn leaves, spend one last weekend at the cottage or participate in various outdoor activities such as hiking, fishing and hunting. The holiday is not as significant a family occasion amongst French Canadians, however."-- This is pure conjecture.  As a French Canadian, I enjoy "l'Action de Grâce" just as much as any English Canadian, in every aspect mentioned above.  To conclude that we don't appreciate Thanksgiving as the rest of Canada is completely invented and racist in its very nature. Cplbeaudoin 15:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  French Canadians Don't Enjoy Thanksgiving? 

message: The nav boxes for agriculture and horticulture don't really seem to belong on this article.  Sure, Thanksgiving is related to a fall harvest, but it really has nothing to do with how the plants/animals are grown and harvested.  It only relates to having the food.
It seems to me that if these boxes are not included in articles like Supermarket and Slaughterhouse, then they definitely shouldn't be in Thanksgiving.
—PurpleRAIN 18:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, perhaps it is too tangential. Cheers!Wassupwestcoast 19:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Agriculture? 

message: How important is it to say that families can see the autumn leaves or go to their cottage?  It's just important that lonely people have a few days to sit at home on their computers looking at pornography.  Do you catch my drift?  Examples of how to spend a holiday don't seem like they belong in a factual encyclopedia.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.10.197 (talk) 02:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples of what to do on the Holiday? 

message: There's a paragraph under "traditional celebration" that begins: "The Thanksgiving holiday was established as a national day of giving thanks and praise to God...." and then is followed by an excessive list of citations. Obviously this is the product of a religious person and a secular person arguing over the religious significance of the holiday. It sounds stupid, looks out of place, and reads very badly. it could easily be smoothed out by working something like "While the holiday retains no sanctioned religious significance, it originally included expressions of thanks to God, and many families still give thanks in prayers to this day," into an earlier part of that section. Youdontsmellbad (talk) 08:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  Ichormosquito (talk) 20:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

text: But the sentence says that "Thanksgiving was established ... to God". Since Christianity was the norm at the time, it doesn't seem too big stretch to say the it was that originally, especially given the citations. Isn't it revisionist to say "we don't include God now, so we must pretend he wasn't included then"? 199.71.183.2 (talk) 20:59, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not what we're saying.  The section on Thanksgiving's history gives due weight to God, as far as I can tell.  Ichormosquito (talk) 21:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

text: "While the holiday retains no sanctioned religious significance" ??? Thanksgiving is still used as an occasion to "give thanks to God" by many theists. --RucasHost (talk) 14:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The God paragraph (Neutrality) 

message: it says yams are a featured ingredient in Thanksgiving - and it links to the African/Polynesian yam (genus Dioscarea) - not only is this crop not at all popular or even really known in America or Canada, it CANNOT be grown here. We do eat SWEET POTATOS (Ipomeoa batatas), which is mentioned, but WE DO NOT EAT YAMS. I am deleting the yams link.
:I eat yams on Thanksgiving. I love yams. Why all the yam hatin', dawg? 71.68.15.63 (talk) 04:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It gets worse than that: we also eat a sweet tuber that looks like a potato that we call 'sweet potato' but which isn't the sweet potato. (Perhaps the oca?) kwami (talk) 11:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  We do not eat yams 

message: Make up your mind, what Thursday is it, 3rd or 4th?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.131.239.129 (talk) 02:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is always the 4th Thursday of November.  I think sometimes people get confused when there are 5 Thursdays in November.  They think, "It was the second-last Thursday in November; that must be the third Thursday." —PurpleRAIN 18:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is it 3rd or 4th 

message: I would like to suggest a link offered to the full text of each President's Thanksgiving proclamations. As I read the quotes included in the article, I find myself wanting to read more on the historical perspective of how earlier generations perceived themselves as receipients of God's providence and their resulting reaction of gratitude and thankfulness. Netmer0 20:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That would make for a lot of links and I think a bit too much for this article, however a list could be made in a separate article and linked to from here.  I agree it would make an interesting list and worthwhile.  I took a look on wikisource and all of the recent proclamations are there, from present and dating back to Carter, but nothing earlier then that which I could find (was surprised that ones made by the founding fathers were not there). What I did find wasn't organized to make finding them easy, so putting such a list together will take some effort by a dedicated wikipedian. Russeasby 21:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Provide links to complete texts of Washington's, Adam's, Thanksgiving Proclaimations 

message: I was wondering if it is appropriate for Sarah Hale to be mentioned in the effort to get Thanksgiving declared as a permanent American National Holiday?  It seems that her role was instrumental in getting Lincoln to make the necessary proclamation.  Previous to 1863, she had been waging a campaign to the various State Governors to make similar proclamations.  A search of "Thankgiving" in American Memory section of the Library of Congress' website will yield an entry for Sarah Hale that shows her letter to Lincoln and the various articles that she had previously wrote on the subject.  I am not sure this link will work, but you can find it here: Sarah J. Hale to Abraham Lincoln Zhafnium 22:00, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's worth mentioning... but it's already in Thanksgiving (United States). Is that enough? --Midnightdreary 16:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sarah Josepha Hale 

message: Bold text
According to an April 1, 1864, letter from John Nicolay, one of President Lincoln's secretaries, this document was written by Secretary of State William Seward, and the original was in his handwriting. On October 3, 1863, fellow Cabinet member Gideon Welles recorded in his diary that he complimented Seward on his work. A year later the manuscript was sold to benefit Union troops.
By the President of the United States of America.
A Proclamation.
The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People.I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverance's and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquility and Union.
In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.
Done at the City of Washington, this Third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the Unites States the Eighty-eighth.
By the President: Abraham Lincoln
William H. Seward,
Secretary of State'''
Stanleybadams (talk) 14:28, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The National Thanksgiving Proclamations 

message: I believe that the article could use significantly more information on the seasonal relevance of the Thanksgiving traditions. Certain foods are mentioned, but no association is made with celebration of a successful harvest (late-season foods). With the current emphasis on "happy" meals, communal conversation about individual gratitudes, and the implied divine favor upon the European colonists, it seems like the only thing missing is a soundfile playing "God Bless America" and a slideshow of Norman Rockwell paintings. This language certainly deserves a place in the article since it is part of the holiday's tradition, but currently there is no information at all about the seasonal relevance of the Thanksgiving holiday in the context of an intensively agrarian culture.
--Raphite 04:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seasonal Celebration 

message: It says that schools generally give a four day weekend.  Well, in my district anyway, it's a five day weekend.  So I would just change it to "Four or five day weekend" but it's locked, so I'm just putting this here so someone else can change it.  --LittleBeast.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.231.72.218 (talk) 03:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: well not all districts have 4 - 5 days some have 3 or even 2. Parker1297  ( Talk to me · Sign my autograph page.)                              15:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Days off 

message: Under United states - first thanksgiving it says "On November 19, 2007, President George W. Bush gave the traditional Thanksgiving address at Berkeley Plantation in Charles City County, Virginia." this is not relevant to the First American thanksgiving and should be removed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradleyg5 (talk • contribs) 09:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please clean up United States-First thanksgiving 

message: This article suggests one of the reasons started to fair better was a change from communal to private farming.
The Tragedy of the Commons
Perhaps something along these lines should be mentioned in the article if it can be corroborated with other sources.
--Jayson Virissimo (talk) 05:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, this section blatantly expresses a POV. Someone was trying to promote capitalism and denigrate communism. It should be edited to reflect the facts only, with neutral language. --Skylights76 (talk) 03:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Despite the fact I revile Communism, I have to agree. It's a page about a holiday. Just write about the holiday. Please. Do we really have to make this difficult? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.68.20.12 (talk) 23:05, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative View 

message: Can someone remove the inciteful "stolen land" reference? It currently reads "Thanksgiving has been criticised as celebrating the genocide of Native Americans, in order to make way for European Colonisation. The United States was stolen from the natives who lived there, and with it their culture was almost destroyed." --Norepinephrine (talk) 21:08, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not "the truth".  The fact that some criticise it is truth, but North America wasn't "stolen". --99.246.135.97 (talk) 22:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stolen land 

message: Every year the Nation runs an article about the bloody side of Thanksgiving: giving thanks for victory after massacring the Pequot, etc. I was expecting to see some of that here, or perhaps counter-claims that this is exaggeration, but instead it reads like what I was taught in kindergarten. Certainly the idea of Thanksgiving as at least historically a celebration of conquest is widespread enough to warrant mention? kwami (talk) 11:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the section above I suggested that the article is probably not ready for material on imperialism/genocide/etc., but if you could find some good references to articles (journalists, scholarly, etc.) like the one you mentioned, a section on the subject might actually be able to survive an edit war. --Raphite (talk) 21:06, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  criticism 

message: This article reflects the patriotic mythology taught in junior high schools in place of history. It will cause others in the world, who did not attend US junior high school, to question the credibility of Wikipedia and, perhaps unfairly, that of current US historians. It should be removed.
--Kjb (talk) 00:01, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot agree more. The article looks like a propaganda pamphlet. There is no section like History or anything. Consider this statement:
"This is a tradition that started when the first European settlers arrived in America, in search of freedom."
When the fuck did that happen? 1000 BC? And is Thanksgiving a holiday for "search of freedom"? One would think that such a main stream topic (it is nearly everywhere in American Media - movies, TV series) would atleast be readable.--18jahremädchen (talk) 22:24, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patriotic Mythology 

message: Additional references are needed. Additionally, linking to http://www.oyate.org/resources/shortthanks.html is a little questionable. It's a very biased page, and I hope that there's something else that can be linked to from wikipedia. I understand that there are some people who are very sensitive about the culture of North American peoples before Europeans arrived, but this is not encyclopedic as a source or cross-reference, and only barely as a additional reference. Poorly written et cetera.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by TodaysPitch (talk • contribs) 04:22, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: This page is really ment to be a disambig page with breif descriptions of the different thanksgivings and links to the corresponding US and Canadian main pages.  Yet it keeps growing (and the link to the main US page seems to have been removed at some point from this page).  So much has been added though that I certainly dont want to undertake the process of merging the articles now.  But I am tempted to return this page to its intended state and allow someone more abitious to go through history and undertake the merger. If no one objects here I will probably be doing this soon. Russeasby (talk) 13:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you! As a Swede who has never been to North America, I know little about thanksgiving, so I don't feel comfortable editing the article. Still, the entire article looks... weird. I'm mostly reacting to the order of how the sections have been placed (and by all means why the sections have been chosen).  The introduction seems good enough, but after that... the introduction says it started in Canada... so I expect a history section, or description of Canadian thanksgiving, or, possibly, how Canadian thanksgiving developed into US thanksgiving. But it just starts discussing US thanksgiving. The (long) section 'The National Thanksgiving Proclamations' seems very US focused, making me wonder why isn't it in Thanksgiving (United States) instead. Lejman (talk) 22:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just done as you suggested.  See my comments in this section above. —PurpleRAIN 16:04, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambig 

message: "Thanksgiving dinner is done in the evening, usually as a gathering of friends and/or family. At this time you say all your thanks and wishes."
First, who says it's "done" (eaten?) in the evening? It's quite common -- perhaps even MORE common -- to eat in the afternoon. 
Second, who is "you"? That's really bad style. It should be "one." Also, this makes it sound like everyone says "thanks and wishes". In my experience, most people just eat.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.183.177.184 (talk) 15:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Style, Time of Day, Protocol 

message: Thanksgiving  is not a North American holiday. I have never seen it begin celebrated in Mexico. Please change it to 'Thanksgiving Day, is a traditional United States of America and Canadian holiday' for accuracy.
I believe it means cultural North America (aka English/French speaking North America) as opposed to cultural Latin America. So don't change a thing59.38.32.9 (talk) 09:52, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Who's to say? I don't know, but a lot of Mexicans do reside in US (and probably Canada), so yeah. Yes, "North America" is a rather broad term which includes Canada, US, and even Iceland, but the term is almost always used to just point to USA. A bit tricky and unfair, but don't ask me, that's just how it is. Anyway, changed anyhow. ★Dasani★ 03:20, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  North American holiday ? 

message: The external link to http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=3974&terms=Thank+but+no+thanks is Thanks but No Thanks".  The correct article title is Thanks, but No Thanks? which conveys an entirely different meaning.  Could someone fix that please?
: Skier Dude (talk) 03:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link error 

message: Please change "It is primarily a United States and Canada holiday ..." to something more grammatically correct, such as: "It is a holiday celebrated primarily in Canada and the United States."  At least, "Canada" in that context should be written "Canadian" - there are Canadian holidays, but no Canada holidays, just as there are American holidays but no America holidays.  Also, the phrase "which has generally become a national secular holiday with religious origins" should be (if included at all) changed to something like "While perhaps religious in origin, Thanksgiving is now primarily identified as a secular holiday" (since it cannot have recently "become" a holiday with religious origins).156.101.9.1 (talk) 23:03, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar Issue 

message: An elementary school teacher isn't an appropriate authority on history.  Would someone remove the reference to Robyn Gioia in the article introduction? 94.37.244.161 (talk) 13:46, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Although she may be basing this on some authoritative opinions, nothing in the cited references gives a good reason to think her particular opinion is authoritative (not a slight against school teachers but the references don't give any reason to think that she personally has done research and is an expert in the matter). --Mcorazao (talk) 20:07, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm surprised by the prominence of this opinion.  I cant find any evidence of her prominence as a historian. Writerofstuff (talk) 17:02, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Robyn Gioia? 

message: The scope of this article seems very confused. It seems to be partially disambig and partially informative. As a disambig it seems very focused on North America even as it mentions celebrations in other parts of the world. So is it about the North American tradition. Even in the realm of North America it focuses a lot on the U.S. tradition seeming to imply that the Canadian tradition is entirely derivative of the U.S. tradition. I don't believe that this is the case, is it? If it is the article should say so and cite. If not the U.S.-centricism needs to be removed.
--Mcorazao (talk) 20:10, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is this article about? 

message: Please note in this article that the Solomon Islands celebrates Thanksgiving day on Dec 26.  That nation used to celebrate Boxing Day on that date, but changed it to Thanksgiving Day as it better reflected the cultures of the nation of Solomon Islands.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.1.163.174 (talk) 02:38, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other national holidays of Thanksgiving 

message: I believe this article would be enhanced by mentioning that Berkeley Plantation on the James River in Virginia also lays claim to the first observance of Thanksgiving on December 4, 1619.  This is consistent with the information found on the Berkeley Plantation page in Wikipedia, which includes two sources substantiating (if not confirming) the claim.
I don't think it is necessary for Wikipedia to be the final arbiter of which claim is correct, but it is helpful to identify the various claims.
--Rpalme01 (talk) 13:45, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Thanksgivings 

message: No one seems to mention the tribe that is responsible for this holiday.
It was the Wampanoag Tribe of Cape Cod who 'welcomed' the 'Pilgrams', taught them to fish, hunt, etc., and in return their lands were stolen and the tribe nearly decimated to extinction.  The Wampanoag Tribe.  Remember that.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.173.179.57 (talk) 17:57, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who are these Native Americans? 

message: Please consider the sentence "The celebration became an important part of the American myth by the 1800s.[citation needed]" The prelude to this sentence is about two separate historic activities of thanksgiving and the term "celebration" could refer to either.  
The link in the sentence is not actually to American myth, but rather to Folklore of the United States. By using the word "myth", the author of this sentence inserted through definition the bias of fictitious fabrication. Folklore generally refers to traditional tales from the past that may or may not be fictitious.  It could imply mythology, but not necessarily. The linked article mentions the Pilgrims as one of the "founding myths" of American folklore and cultural awareness, but in the article the term "founding myth" is both quoted and reserved for three subjects only, all three of which were historic rather than fictitious. It would therefore be more accurate in the sentence in question to change "American myth" to "American folklore" and remove any allusion to fictitious events. This could be confusing.
I have been unable to find any specific, authoritative reference to the claim that the celebration had become unofficially important "by the 1800s" as the sentence seems to imply.  However, it is quite easy to support that local celebrations of thanksgiving were sporadically celebrated from the earlier historic references up through the presidency of George Washington and beyond. 
For all of the above I propose a correction, but first I would also point out that the sentence itself is out of place.  The previous sentences specifically refer to the traditional "first Thanksgiving" at Plymouth, Massachucetts in 1621 and to the Thanksgiving at Berkley Plantation, Virginia in 1619; the sentence following references the Thanksgiving "generally regarded as America's first." It is up to the reader to decide which of the two the entry is referencing as "America's first." But whichever it is, any reference to American myth or folklore most assuredly must follow the sentence alluding to the "first" Thanksgiving.  I would therefore offer the following rewrite of the sentence in question, to be relocated to follow the phrase "generally regarded as America's first":
The early colonial thanksgiving feast became an important part of American folklore and local celebrations were popular enough that in 1789 a Congressional Joint Committee approved and President George Washington proclaimed that a national day of Thanksgiving be observed on Thursday, November 26.Thanksgiving in North America: From Local Harvests to National Holiday
Since I am not privileged to edit the entry, I shall leave my proposal up to whomever is so priveleged. Historicrecord (talk) 18:46, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  American folklore vs. American myth 

message: Even if relations were too often atrocious -- even genocidal -- between european colonists and those whose ancestors happened to have reached the Americas thousands of years earlier, I think the joint celebration of the first Thanksgiving is one of the holiday's key features.  It reveals a more hopeful vision of possibilities in the New World.  It is a model of people getting along together despite differences in language, belief systems, material culture, etc.  Even if relationships between different communities have often been harsh, this isn't the whole story. Thanksgiving embodies a more benign vision: the possibility that relationships between different peoples aren't necessarily a grim zero-sum game of competition for limited resources.  Instead there may be much to be gained through cooperation and learning from one another.  While Native Americans -- those lucky enough to survive wars and epidemics anyhow -- undoubtedly benefited from moving from the stone age pretty far into the iron age, their material culture also contained a tremendous amount that helped europeans survive and prosper in the new environment. LADave (talk) 03:45, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thanksgiving and Native Americans 

message: This sentence should contain "its" and not "it's" : To avoid the two holidays from clashing with one another, in 1957 the Canadian Parliament proclaimed Thanksgiving to be observed on it's present date.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ikkeklok (talk • contribs) 22:24, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sentence 

message: the nationality of Grenada is Grenadian.  The 'i' is missing in the article.
Ineville (talk) 00:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Thanks, Stickee (talk) 01:39, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from Ineville, 5 October 2010 

message: FYI,
Australians do not celebrate Thanksgiving. To claim they do is incorrect. The specific claim that Australians celebrate Thanksgiving on May 29 is false. A google search shows up only one organisation, National Day of Thanksgiving, that promotes such a celebration but even then is a private, obviously religious group with an agenda. There is no proclamation of a Thanksgiving Day in Australia and no increasing tradition amongst our nation to celebrate this day. The references to Australian Thanksgiving should be removed.
Cheers,
PR.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulromas (talk • contribs) 15:21, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanksgiving is a North American (Canadian & American) tradition. Australians do not celebrate Thanksgiving. 173.180.193.74 (talk) 20:19, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thanksgiving in Australia 

message: There is NO official Thanksgiving holiday in Australia. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100906181443AAkBogP 
The reference to Australia should be removed in order to protect the informational integrity of Wikipedia 173.180.193.74 (talk) 20:25, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Australia should be removed as a nation that celebrates Thanksgiving. This is a North American holiday with many years of established tradition. The US & Canada have both designated Thanksgiving as a national holiday and to say Australia is 'increasingly' celebrating this holiday does not fit with the tradition and the origins of its original North American conception. That would be like me saying "Canada and the US are increasingly celebrating ANZAC day." Australia does not celebrate Thanksgiving, period. 173.180.193.74 (talk) 20:43, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  AUSTRALIA??? 

message: according to the French Wikipedia, there is a "Thanksgiving" in the Solomon Islands. It uses this reference: http://www.marktheday.com/nationholidaydates/slb_nationaldayofthanksgiving.aspx?source=10554
76.66.200.95 (talk) 07:57, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solomon Islands 

message: This article needs major correcting and I doubt that will happen unless someone outside the USA who knows better does it.  Thanksgiving isn't as stated "celebrated primarily in the United States and Canada."  Britain celebrates Thanksgiving around the same time as Canada, and is also know as Harvest Festival (see http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/Harvest.html).  Thanksgiving in most countries coincided the end of harvest, giving thanks to God for the harvest, hence it is also know as Harvest Festival.  Unlike the USA, in Britain it is less commercialised and is centred around the church and school.  As with Canada, thanksgiving in Britain is around the end of September, early October.  Indeed, having been to Canadian Thanksgivings, they are more akin to English Thanksgiving that their US counterpart.  I would bet that if someone did their history they would find that Thanksgiving in the USA and prior, when it was still British the thirteen colonial states, was celebrated in Sept/Oct as per the mother country.
As per this article, it was originally a religious celebration in the USA as it still is in Britain, it's origins being thanking God for the harvest.  I have little doubt that prior to that it was a pagan celebration.
78.147.192.22 (talk) 00:33, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from 78.147.192.22, 30 October 2010 

message: nytimes link [4] goes to a blank page. please use http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/26/opinion/26davis.html
the usa today link [3] is just plain broken  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.188.37.68 (talk) 03:44, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  LINKS NEED TO BE UPDATED! 

message: I am not going to officially submit it yet, but I would like to bring up the possibility of moving Thanksgiving (United States) here and moving this page somewhere else. I want to see if this has a chance have actually happening before I officially submit it.--JDDJS (talk) 23:25, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move? 

message: The current article seems to be a bit misleading. Saying that Thanksgiving is known informally as "Turkey Day" in the first sentence of the article is implying the turkey day term is a frequent, notable, or important epithet for the holiday. I've almost never heard it called that, except jokingly, and rarely even then. Informally it's just called Thanksgiving. The fact that Turkey Day redirects to the article is explanation enough that it's an informal term for the holiday; the article doesn't need to explain it too. And if the article must bear mention of that term, it should at least explain why it's called that, as the present article bears little mention otherwise of the customary food in North American thanksgiving celebrations. A better position for mentioning this barely-notable term would be following a discussion of Thanksgiving dinner: ". . . and turkey. The emphasis on turkey has led to the occasionally used sarcastic epithet of Turkey Day for the holiday."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.230.166.59 (talk) 00:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Turkey Day" 

message: Norfolk Island in the South Pacific also celebrates Thanksgiving day.  We are celebrating it tomorrow the 23rd of November 2010.  This I believe came here with the American Whalers.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.17.240.220 (talk) 05:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another country celebrates it too.  Norfolk Island, South Pacific. 

message: Why is Thanksgiving in Japan absent in the "Observance around the world" section of this article? There is a wiki article entitled Labor Thanksgiving Day about Thanksgiving in Japan. This is not a purely "labor day" holiday; as the article indicates an important element of the holiday is "giving thanks to one another" . It is held every year on November 23 right around the time of the US Thanksgiving holiday yet another reason to assume this is similiar to US Thanksgiving and not Labor Day. It should be noted that the wiki article on Labor day only mentions US observances and the article on Labour day omits discussion of Japan Labor Thanksgiving day so there is no conflicting cross reference.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.13.186.197 (talk) 18:51, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thanksgiving Day in Japan- November 23 

message: I think it should be mentioned that Thanksgiving is also a Christian festival, especially in the United States. There are masses and other church services to celebrate the day, as well as special prayers. It has a spot on the Western Christian calendars. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 16:26, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian holy day 

message: Now, I realize this might be a famous painting, but you couldn't find any other picture? What's up with these white people leading the humbled Indians to the table and graciously giving them food while they're kneeling? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 19:22, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, found a different one; less offensive, though still not ideal... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 19:26, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: Thanksgiving Day is also celebrated in Leiden, in the The Netherlands. 
Double "the": the The Netherlands  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.171.19.116 (talk) 21:27, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling