Talk:Kurds/Archive 2

message: I am sory neither are you using talk, cometing out views is how we do things on wikipedia. You do not have the liberty to declare my edits as pov and do not care to, either explain or read my reactions. --Cool Cat My Talk 21:05, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What makes you think that "cometing out views is how we do things on wikipedia."? Stereotek 21:37, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: All you do is waiste my time. I cant deal with you. You pushed my patience to its limits and beyond. --Cool Cat My Talk 08:50, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikiway

message: *Flag of Kurdistan which is flown by Kurds in the Kurdish Autonomous Region of Iraq and by Kurds in the Kurdish regions of Turkey, be they separatist or not.]]
*Flag of Kurdistan which is flown by Kurds in the Kurdish Autonomous Region of Iraq and by Kurdish seperatists in Turkey and elsewhere.]]
:*It is absolute propoganda to talk about a uniform kurdish movement. The flag in question is not waved by all kurds. Only speeratists use this fiag. It represents a defacto nation, Kurdistan. People who dont desire such a nation do not wave the flag. One only wants to wave a defacto flag if he/she is a seperatist. --Cool Cat My Talk 10:05, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Case 1

message: *...Kurds have been campaigning (often through violence as well as political means) for the right to their own state, which they often refer to as Kurdistan, land of the Kurds or Kurdish homeland. However, despite their efforts and help of European countries, all the region's governments are opposed the concept, which would require them losing parts of their own territories to create a Kurdish homeland.
*...Some Kurds have been campaigning (often through violence as well as political means) for an independent state, which they often refer to as Kurdistan(land of the Kurds or Kurdish homeland). However, all the region's governments oppose the concept, which would require them losing parts of their own territories and would significantly destabilise the region.
:*Europeans do not want a independent Kurdistan as their foreign poicy I bleieve. Their support if any is unofficial/undercover if any.
:*Word cluttere fixed
:*Unstability implied here Iraq's neighbors discuss war, here The big gamble,  and here Sensitive Turkey to host Iraq meeting). If you think countries are bluffing, think again. Turkey alone has interfered over 50 times with Northern Iraq.
:*There are hundereds of new sarticles that developed regarding Kurds in the past 3 years so its difficult to fond anything spesific. I cant find the link regarding the uniformal statement so I adjusted the article accorindingly.
:Following changes are along the line. Samething repeated, necesary to clarify. Uncertainty is the MOST improtant aspect of this.
::Could you find a source for the official statement by Syria, Iran, and Turkey that they would go to war if Kurdistan was created? silsor 23:46, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)
:::Will try. --Cool Cat My Talk 23:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am having dificulty finding spesific knowlege, I am posting anything I find related. When bombs explode on a daily basis in a region diplomacy is low piority in news. --Cool Cat My Talk 00:16, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Case 2

message: *The status of Kurds in Iraq is considered to be the best between all Kurds. Under the former Iraqi Ba'athist...
*The status of Kurds in Iraq is now clouded by uncertainty. Under the former Iraqi Ba'athist...
:Both the old and new versions need a source.  In the first one, who considers their status to be the best?  In the second one, who considers their status to be clouded by uncertainty? silsor 23:49, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)
::Well, its uncertain. Its very likely Iraq will be draged into a civil war. Factualy speaking you have Turkey in Northern Iraq over 50 times when Saddam was in power. Turks protected Kurds from Saddam. Thats a fact, the Crosroads article talks about it. Ill elaborate in a sec. --Cool Cat My Talk 23:52, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not believe the majority Shia's will besatisfied with a kurdish prez. I personaly dont expect him o complete his term. He will either be assasinated or overthrown. Power exchange in the middle east has never been easy. --Cool Cat My Talk 23:57, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: CHeck history. Clouded by uncertainty was how it was before I edit the article. --Cool Cat My Talk 00:33, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Case 3

message: *Timeline is unacceptable as no source was cited. Since I am not allowed to edit the article. I know I shouldnt have commented it out. I apologise for my atempt to remove unverifiable data. --Cool Cat My Talk 10:39, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Case 5

message: Hmm, it occurs to me that the timeline sucks pretty badly. Should really be moved to History of the Kurds, Kurdistan Workers Party, and other related articles. I'm certain (at least with the PKK stuff that this information is duplicated.  Anyone elses opinion? - FrancisTyers 17:22, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline 

message: :Anyways I am inlined to completely remove "Kurdish people in the past and today" section on the long run since it isnt cited. I am buys with few other articles and my vandal detection bot. Could you guys help me out and cite these too meanwhile? --Cool Cat Talk 03:41, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Cite sources

message: :Kurds are estimated to be about 95 percent Muslim, especially Sunni Muslim (75%) and belong to the Shafi and Hanafi Schools of Islam. There are also Shia Muslims (20%) who primarily live in the Kermanshah and Ilam provinces of Iran and Central Iraq ("Al-Fayliah" Kurds). Alevi Shia Muslims make up another 10% and are mainly found in Turkey.
:The remaining 5% are Christians, Jews and Yezidis.
Anyone with sources, the statistics keep getting changed. But no one is providing a source. --Cool Cat Talk 23:58, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: About the religion of the Kurds..I am from the Middle East and every kurd and middle eastern knows that there are almost no Christian Kurds and Jewish Kurds what are these for nonsence?--Sargon 09:01, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Religion

message: Why do you keep referring to PKK guerillas?
The PKK is considered a terrorist group by the EU and the US.
They are PKK terrorists.
:That's your point of view (and that of 2 countries). Wikipedia has a neutral point of view policy. --Hottentot
::How about partisan as a more neutral alternative? - FrancisTyers 10:15, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guerillas? 

message: I think every Kurd would agree that actual Kurdistan is much smaller than what is depicted on the picture of this page. The picture is misleading. It creates a false impression by saying that the marked areas are "inhabited" by kurds. Not every place where a few kurds live is kurdish-inhabited area. By this kind of logic you could include Paris and London in Kurdistan, which doesn't seem to be agood idea. I don't know what the motivation is for creating such a misleading figure, but anyhow it certainly is not appropriate as a source of information for people who want to learn about Kurds. I think with little effort much better pictures can be found which realistically demonstrate the areas where significant kurdish population is present. One could be the "Proposed boundaries of Kurdistan" on the Kurdistan page, although even that is exaggerated as far as I know.
::If you can find a map that (in your opinion) more accurately show our readers where the majority of the Kurdish population lives, you are very welcome to add it. However, for now, I think we should keep the map that is currently available here.-- Karl Meier 10:23, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The lack of availability of a correct map is not a good reason for keeping an obviously incorrect one. Many areas depicted on this map have, at best, a very small minority of Kurdish population. Note for example the areas in northern Khorasan (near Mashhad), the vicinity of Ankara in turkey, Zahedan, Tehran, Tabas, the north Iranian provinces of Mazandaran and Guilan,and the city of Shiraz. Naming these "Kurdish area" is as wrong as calling Berlin "Turkish" because there is a turkish population living there. This map is clearly politically motivated and without any scholarly or logical basis, whatsoever. It does not belong here, or in any other serious publication for that matter. Shervink 11:01, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The map is from the Perry-Castañeda Library (PCL) of the University of Texas at Austin. It's not a bad source, and your opinion that the map is inaccurate is, well, your opinion... If you can find a different public domain map from a respectable source, then we should of course take a look at it. -- Karl Meier 11:15, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

text: OK, then, I've changed the map and removed the text that called the areas "Kurdish". Now the only text that is available to the readers is: "Kurdish-inhabited areas of the Middle East and the Soviet Union in 1986." I hope these changes address you concerns. -- Karl Meier 12:14, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: About the picture

message: What's next calling Osama Bin Laden a freedom fighter?? I can't beleive Wikipedia editors let an organization such as pkk(or kongra-gel) which is clearly labeled as "terrorist organization" by US an EU to be described as freedom fighters who fight for their peoples' rights. All the information regarding the situation in Turkey is clearly written by pro-pkk militant and contents of the article can not be more far from the truth.Let me give you an example; In summer of 2005,as a result of pkk suicide bombing,many inncocent tourists(including british and irish ones)were killed. I'm asking the authors of the article on the kurdish issue in Turkey ; so you are telling me those innocent peole died(or had to die) because there was no other way? Are you telling me some group of people gain licence to kill innocent people just because they have a political cause? So all the isreali,american, british, irish, iraqi innocent civilians who had not done anything wrong (other than being a citizen of their nation-states) deserved to die becuase their governments policies were wrong? The year is 2005 and you are telling me ,there is no other way to spread your message other than bombing shopping malls, touristic places and terrorizing masses?
:Funny you should mention Ireland. Think about that. - FrancisTyers 01:21, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia is Spreading Pkk's Terrorist Propaganda

message: I cannot digest this many statements and establishing of facts yet no citations. Can someone please present verifiable facts and present them in a NPoV nature? "Widespread bleifs" "majority" and other generalisations need some citations among other things. This article is at a pathetic shape. --Cool Cat Talk 00:41, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Thoughts

message: Diyako 18:42, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: What is problem with this article??!

message: I think the main problem is that we have two groups of people editing this article. One side seems very pro-Kurdish, and the other side seems to be anti-Kurdish. It seems that each time this article is modified in some way, it is changed again. I can see where people are saying that evidence is needed, but I have seen in some cases where evidence was supplied but a user had edited the passage out. We got too many biased people modifiying this page, on both ends of the issue. I would try and contribute, but I fear that I may have a bias.
MercZ 07:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting.  What are the views of the pro and anti-Kurdish factions though?  I mean Kurdish is an Iranian language and genetic tests seem to show at least some relationship to other Iranian peoples as well as the Kurds having some distinct traits and ties to Europeans as well as Jews.  Clearly the Kurds are a very mixed people as are most Middle Easterners.  Perhaps the best way to go about fixing this article is to link as many sources as possible and present the views with some clarity as to why certain conclusions are plausible.  Tombseye 06:25, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: I see

message: I just wanted to make it clear that denoting the Kurds as an Iranian people does not mean that they are a subgroup of the Persians or the modern state of Iran at all. The name 'Iran' is ancient and is applicable to many different peoples and not just to the modern Iranians who have adopted the name for their country. The Kurdish language is without a doubt an Iranian language and may even be older than the mainstay of the Iranian family, Persian. The relationship I meant to denote was that it was similar in the same way that English and German are, distantly, as Germanic people but with established common roots. However, the English are a fusion of Germanic and Celtic (and possibly older groups and various other peoples), whereas the Germans show few Celtic traces. Similarly, the Kurds show links to the Caucasus that most Persians do not. In addition, I think thought the genetic section deserved a section since there is a lot of info. to weed through still and its compelling stuff. Also changing Iranian people to Iranic is not a bad idea as it better illustrates that there are various branches of the larger Iranian peoples. Lastly, it would be cool if people could discuss why they find certain terminology offensive or inaccurate (such as the term Iranian people) and also why some people find the Medes so important in terms of the background of the Kurds, while others prefer to emphasize the Kurds more varied background. The Kurds are obviously related to many different peoples, but do show closer ties to two main groups (the earliest inhabitants who probably came from the Caucasus and the Aryans) and lesser links to others (although some of the links to the Jews and Europeans is surpising and adds to the complexity). Further discussion could only help to make this article better. Might I also suggest more pictures of Kurds and their diversity including Kurds in Turkey, Iran, and Iraq? Tombseye 19:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding recent edits and the Kurds status as 'Iranian' people

message: These articles (Genetic insights into the background of the Kurds) on (Kurdish-DNA) shifting Please.
Hi
You mean redirect?Diyako 17:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kurdisch-DNA 

message: In regards to the origins of the Kurds as being Halaf or Hurrian, there is no evidence to support this, only speculation. Citing credible sources as opposed to biased Kurdish sites would help. Moreover, supplying English-language external links would also help in cleaning up the article (or noting that the external link is in another language). --3345345335534 00:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Factual history of the Kurds & Cleanup

message: I have cited source to what you have mentioned above.Diyako 19:33, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Shlama

message: This article seems to have suffered from linkspam. Someone should clean it up. If a link is removed, please note it on the talk page with a reason why it was removed Wikipedia:External links - FrancisTyers 15:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: External link pruning