Talk:List of Romani people/Archive 1

message: I don't think so.
Tom Jones was the son of a Welsh miner but there has been no suggestion of any Roma ancestry.  Ava Gardner?  Rita Hayworth was mixed English and Spanish (I don't know about Roma).  A lot of the names given in the Media bit are dubious to say the least especially as the Roma and the Sinti are 2 distinct groups and it was mainly Sinti in the UK and I don't that most of them are that either, indeed one notable name left off is David Essex who is well known to be English Romani.
Yul Brynner was of mixed Russian and Mongolian ancestry, he played music in some Russian Roma nightclubs but he wasn't of them - someone obviously is just picking up on references to Romani in people's life or even in many cases films they have appeared in (Ava Gardner's appearance in Barefoot Contessa doesn't mean she was Romani).  No doubt at some stage someone will add Christopher Lee although the only suggestion that he might be of Romani ancestry is that the name Lee is the most common English Romani name, but then again it is generally quite a common English name generally, some Romani in a restaraunt he was in once recognised him and claimed he might be Romani although maybe they didn't realise that his foreign looking appearance owes more to his mother coming an Italian aristocratic family than anything else.
Mother Teresa was a Macedonian Roma woman
This list is disputed, it should be structured on facts on on basis of guesses about someones ancestry.
There is no guesses,She was Roma, as to the concern about what constitutes someone with Romany blood,-as long as one of your ancestors is Roma.People with Native American blood even if it is 1/100,are still considered Native American by the US Government, even if they have blond hair and blue eyes, people still have Roma blood regardless of with your list says. It only takes a few generations of mixing to produce people who don't resemble Roma,some 1/2 Native Americans or Mexicans have blond hair blue eyes,my dad is half Roma, and for the most part he looks white and you would'nt think anything else. So it should'nt be surprising that many different people have Roma blood.Here in Oklahoma I thought I was alone in the fact that I knew I was part Romany and no one else, I was mistaken
Karl Malden's father was not Roma, his father was Serb and his mother was 
Czech. I am not sure about Ibrahimović but i think that he said in an interwiew that his father is Bosniak. In Balkan states or former Yugoslavia itermarriages between Roma people and others are very uncommon, partialy because of isolation of Roma communities and mostly because of prejudices toward Roma people . So I can say that i have never heard about anyone married Roma and vice versa in my hole life as I remember.
Mixing in the Roma ethnic group has occured slowly in my opinion,in 1000 years(32-40 generations)if only 3% of each generation intermarried, the math concludes that Roma have are roughly half European and half Indic. I observe the tendency for lighter skin in the Roma the farther West into Europe and America they go. The Roma of England have blond hair and blue eyes mostly.They also vaker the chib.There maybe a melting pot effect that is not occuring in the Balkans, but it is definitely happening in the US and Western Europe.Many of us American Roma don't know we are Roma until we are told when we are older by an Aunt,Uncle or Grandparent
I don't want to be misunderstood, like I'm having something against Roma people. Just opposite that.I  know that the Roma people were the subject  of constant oppression in history  not only in Balkan states but in whole Europe. I also know that there are similiar Roma communities ,like those in Eastern Europe ,in Spain and France where i lived for a while. I also want to point out that there are similiar communities (mostly in Western Europe) who may not be of same Indian origins like Roma.
I agree, some travelling people have no Indic blood,but at the same time blond blue eye English Romany speak with words of Indic origin. But also their is dark skinned Roma, that don't speak any words of Indic Origin at all. I hope I am not coming off as hardheaded, It is a jigsaw puzzle with pieces missing.
Roma is the part of Mother Theresa's heritage that is not disputed..it's her other half that gets argued over. Even the Pope acknowledged her Romany heritage. I don't know about Ava Gardner, never heard that, but I do know that Rita Hayworth's father was Spanish Gitano. A notable one, at that, as was her grandfather. And Yul Brynner's son can argue it till he's blue in the face, Brynner was, indeed part Roma on his mother's side. A fact that had to be proven to the council in London in order to establish the Gypsy campsite there. It was a requirement, or else they would have denied approval for the campsite.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.83.177.138 (talk) 22:35, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mother Teresa is a Roma woman? 

message: Roma people has been nominated to be improved on the Improvement Drive. Support this article with your vote and help us improve it to featured status!--Fenice 10:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive|Improvement Drive]]

message: Here is the reference for Pablo Picasso and Mother Teresa being Romani
: http://www.geocities.com/~patrin/timeofthegypsies.htm
Here is another: http://www.webprincess.com/facab/apr98.htm
This one is just for Mother Teresa
: http://www.stlouis.missouri.org/501c/gitana/page2D.html
: http://www.imninalu.net/famousgypsies.htm
Robbyfoxxxx 23:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But none of those sources say where they get their information from.  I can create a website and create a "List of people who were born purple" and make it sound reasonable, but unless I included documented proof, then it isn't a reliable source.  Is there a newspaper article or a biography which makes this claim?  User:Zoe|(talk) 00:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

text: If there were an article about you, and that assertion was made, yes.  User:Zoe|(talk) 00:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry, what did I say that was a lie?  And once again, in the normal course of the day, you don't need to document you exist.  However, if an article were written about you (or about me, for that matter), there would have to be more than just a flat assertion that you or I exist.  Existence isn't notable either, but that's for another discussion.  Proof of all assertions needs to be made for the assertion to continue in an article.  As I said on your Talk page, please read WP:V.  And please don't take this as an attack on your or your ethnicity, or on the Roma people -- it's purely about verification of articles.  User:Zoe|(talk) 00:46, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

text: It's not a lie.  See WP:V.  If you make a claim in a Wikipedia article, you have to be prepared to back it up.  User:Zoe|(talk) 03:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mother Teresa

message: I find it hard to believe that many of the people on this article are Roma... Someone claiming that their great grandfather was a gypsy (or cherokee for that matter) does not qualify them as belonging to the Roma ethnic group. I think this list should be cut down considerably... There should also be some sources which prove this is true.
There is sources I have put them up,Just because someone has a Roma Ancestor DOES qualify them for this list,It does'nt matter if they are part of the culture or not.They still have Roma Blood, so stop erasing people, I've noticed you trolling on this and the Roma People link.I gonna have you banned if you continue to deface this list Robbyfoxxxx 20:27, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: This list is very dubious

message: This seems to be the main point of contention in this article. I agree basically with the statement made by Burgas00 above, which I reproduce below:
We owe the Roma people some respect: Imagine this page was called "list of jewish people". Imagine someone started adding random people into the article because "his great grandfather was supposedly half jewish". It is claimed in many sources that Hitler had jewish origins. Do you imagine Hitler on the list of famous Jewish people? Or how about Madonna? Well she follows the Kabballa and has changed her name to Esther!! Or how about those wierd protestant sects you have in the US: The Messianic Christians?? Should they be considered Jews because they follow Jewish rituals? Jews visiting this site would be flipping out! Accusing everyone of disrespect, racism etc... It would not be tenable. Well the same thing is going on right now, only there are no Roma to defend their own community on wikipedia. I find this disrespectful and offensive. Famous Roma must be REAL Roma not people who claim (or of whom it is claimed) they have Gypsy ancestry. They must be taken seriously as an ethnic group, and not be victimized by western ignorance and romanticism. 
Please Discuss.
--Cassius80 00:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ethnic Roma or famous people with alleged Roma ancestry?

message: The "People with Roma heritage" section, aside admittedly being completely unsourced, is also completely irrelevant. Some of the people listed, like Bob Hoskins, are actually Roma, some just have distant ancestry (and some are not at all Roma), and we don't have lists by distant ancestry, as per Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Therefore, I am moving the list of "distant" ancestry here (as anyone is allowed to remove any content from Wikipedia that is unsourced). Some of these names should definitely be restored to the main list, but only with sources that actually say the people involved are "Roma" or "Gypsy", not "I think my great-great, etc. was a Gypsy". Mad Jack 22:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You may not "agree" for a list to stay if there are no sources. Unsourced information may and can immediately be removed from any article by any editor. If you want to restore some of the names, you must have a source that actually says that they "are/were Roma". Mad Jack 08:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and sources like , which just say "of Roma descent", are not acceptable because it just says "had X ancestry". I don't know if that source is correct or not (though people like Prinze, Jr., etc. if they have Roma ancestry it is very distant), but the sources you use must actually say "Person X IS Roma", not "had a Roma great-grandmother", "had Roma ancestry", etc. Also be aware, sometimes when a person uses the word "Gypsy" they are referring to particular lifestyle, not the Roma ethnicity/culture. Mad Jack 08:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And to Burgas00. If your concern is that people will start adding Presley, etc. don't worry. I will remove them, as I have been removing equally dubious entries from the majority of X-American lists (we don't run Wikipedia on what may happen if people do this or that, nor should the articles cater to the lowest common denominator :) ) And someone mentioned Bob Hoskins above - he should definitely be on the main list. I'm sure there's a source out there that calls him a Roma or he calls himself one, etc. Mad Jack 08:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: One thing every Wikipedia editor must understand is a ground rule regarding Wikipedia content. As follows = "Source = In", "no source = out" Mad Jack 04:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: No, a "List of X" must have a sources that say the "Person IS X", not that they have some X ancestry, X great-grandmother, etc. This is the way every X-American, etc. list on Wikipedia is done, and it's the only way to comply with WP:NOR and WP:V. Out of the list, you should be able to find a source that says, say, Bob Hoskins is Roma, because he certainly is. Not so much Freddie Prinze, Bill Clinton, Michelle Branch, etc. Just find the sources. Mad Jack 15:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've restored four for whom I found a source that looks reliable that said they are/were Roma, not just had some Roma ancestry. If you wish to restore the rest, please find a similar source that says that the name you are restoring is/was Roma. Mad Jack 16:02, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: You may not make lists of people on Wikipedia because of the ethnicity of a person's great-great-grandfather, etc. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. This is a list of Roma people, which seems encyclopedic enough. If you want to include a person on this list, find a source that explicitly says they are/were Roma, not their great-great-etc. and not that they had Roma ancestry. is or are Roma. Mad Jack 02:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I will repeat. This is a "List of Roma people". Wikipedia does not make lists of people based on the ethnicity of their distant ancestors, so forget the whole "List of people of X descent". If you want to list a person on a List of Roma, find a source that says they are Roma. Let's start with Fairuza Balk, David Blaine and Gogol Bordello. Do you have a source that says they are Roma? Mad Jack 21:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, nix Gogol Bordello. They're a band, not a person. You could list separate band members if you had sources they are Roma. So let's move on, asides from Balk and Blaine, do you have a source that Michelle Branch is Roma? You showed me one source where she said that her great-grandmother was a Gypsy, but that's not sufficient because A. It only said her great-etc. was Gypsy, not Michelle herself and B. "Gypsy" is sometimes used to refer to people living a certain lifestyle, not necessarily Romas. Mad Jack 21:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

text: You simply will not be putting people on this list that are "of Roma descent". Roma. period. This is an encyclopedia we're editing here, not a free for all. I will review your sources and add the people noted as "Roma". Mad Jack 03:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now, the blow by blow. David Blaine - source is not reliable - Hollywood.com is a second-hand trivia sites that copies other sources. That's one. Two - it only says his mother is "Gypsy", which is not good for us because A. it does not specify "Roma" and B. it doesn't say Blaine himself is Gypsy (Roma). I would guess that the source is referring to the Gypsy "lifestyle" here, because every single reputable source on Blaine's ancestry says his mother is Jewish. Fairuza Balk - this  is ridiculous - it's a mirror version of our very own Wikipedia article! in its old form. I already told you about Branch  - it doesn't say Michelle herself is Roma, it says her great-grand was "Gypsy" and doesn't even specify if she was Roma. Sylvia Browne - "I met her" is original research. Your source is a message board. Raymond Buckland - fine, for now. Bunyan -  "may have sprung from the Gipsy tribe" does not say he is Gypsy. Yul Brynner was already in, but you keep unsourcing him when you revert. The source for Caine just says "Gypsy blood" and doesn't look all that reliable. Chaplin is already in the list. Nikki Denise - I found a source and restored. This is a mirror of Wikipedia! "Gabor is a well known Gypsy surname" - giggle. Find me a source that the Gabor sisters are Gypsies. Hayworth and Hoskins are already in. Gatliff -I found a source and added him.  Edyta Górniak - fine, she is in. Albert Lee - good source, I added him. Andy McCoy - can't find any reputable sources. Helen Mirren - link doesn't work. Denny Laine - your first source is our very own Wikipedia article. Your second one is a mirror of that same article! Prinze - he wasn't even Hungarian, much less a Hungarian Gypsy (he alternative claimed to be a Hungarian Jew). His father was German (see Freddie Prinze on Wikipedia for a source). Sandro - which Sandro? There are a few listed on Wikipedia. Mother Teresa - dubious source, but OK, will include. Rodrigo de Triana - source doesn't work. Anyway, as I said, I restored the names above that are sourced to a source that says they were "Gypsy". If you want the rest included, you need to find a source that explicitly says the person is/was a Gypsy/Roma. Mad Jack 04:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Enough already. You simply can not include everyone who may have or even did have a Roma ancestor 200 years ago. If you have a source that is reputable and explicitly says the person is/was Roma, they should be on the list. Nothing that in your opinion makes that person Roma. As I said, I've restored the names that you found proper sources for to the main list, were they belong. The rest should not be restored without a reliable source that says they are Roma. Mad Jack 23:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

text: As I said, Wikipedia does not make one drop rule lists. Enough already. Mad Jack 23:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I will remove it as soon as 3rr expires. That's a promise. You need proper sources and Wikipedia is not your personal playground to put in anything you want. Mad Jack 23:26, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

text: As I said, enough already. Your opinion on who is or is not Roma is irrelevant. Only the opinion of reputable sources specifically on the people under discussion. I am not moving on anywhere. All of Wikipedia's "X lists" must fit under our policies. I have had enough of these attempts at ethnic pride where people add everyone with a drop of whatever X blood. I'm glad I'm here to nullify all that. If you have a source that is reliable and explicitly describes a person as a Roma, they should be on the list. If not, not. It doesn't get much simpler. Because I did not seem to warn you about WP:3RR before, I did not (and I guess could not) report you for it, even though you have violated it and technically should have been blocked. So, consider this a proper warning for next time, that you should not break 3RR. And to get specific, my 3RR term expires in a little over 20 minutes, at which point I will again use my right to remove unsourced names and restore the sources that you for some reason have deleted. If you revert me, then you would have broken the 3RR which I have now warned you about and will almost certainly be blocked by an administrator. Therefore, you should not. Instead, if you want so much to include these people and you are so certain that they are Roma, (some of which you have said yourself that you don't have sources at all for) you need to get out there and find a reputable source that describes each of them as Roma, and add that source and make this page a reputable list of Roma people, not a junkyard. Mad Jack 23:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Don't care about "whatever blood". You got a good source that says "Person X is Roma", they're in. You don't, they're not. It's the same with any thing in Wikipedia. Mad Jack 02:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

text: No, you need a source that say "Person X is Roma". You gave me a couple of sources like that, and I therefore restored the names. As for the other names, they were either 1. admitted by you to having no source 2. non-reliable sources or 3. didn't actually say the person themselves was Roma Mad Jack 02:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Again, no one drop rule. Having an X ancestor does not make a person, their kids, their grandkids and all ancestors from that point X themselves. That's original research. You need a soure that says "this person is X". That's in reference to the reliable sources you presented that do mention Roma ancestry. The other ones are either not reliable, just say "Gypsy", which is ambigious (i.e. Michelle Branch), or, as you admitted, have no source (Gabors). Mad Jack 15:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsourced section