Talk:Orient/Archive 1

message: *[http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/texts/hhshu/hou_han_shu.html#sec22 John E. Hill, translation in his e-edition of Hou Hanshu'
A more sophisticated view of the connotations of "Orient," with a broader cultural horizon, illustrated by a major artist, expressed with a little wit, are unacceptable, it appears. --Wetman 20:59, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: It seems to me that using the term "Asian" is overly broad especially when it comes to the usage by the average American.  When you hear a typical American refer to Asian cuisine, he would probably be refering to east Asian food from China or Japan (or possibly Vietnam, Thailand or Korea).  I once checked a restaurant guide looking for an Indian restaurant.  Knowing my geography, I looked in the Asian section--alas, there were no Indian restaurants.  Apparently, the publishers of this particular guide regard India as not being part of Asia.  Also, if you hear a racial description, for example, "an Asian reporter," your average American is not going to think Pakistani, Mongolian or Ainu, but probably Chinese or Japanese.
:of course americans also call aboriginal americans indians. they're a bit confused and have trouble distinguishing what is what.
As do you.  Sign your posts.Skookum1 08:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  PC, part deux 

message: ok so basically the term oriental/asian is split in its usage between the uk sphere of influence and usa sphere of influence but what about places like france or germany. how do they describe chinese people? do they call them oriental or asian?
Varies.  But this isn't about French or German words, it's about English as-she-is-spoke.Skookum1 17:03, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  usage of oriental 

message: My most recent encounter with the usage of "the Orient" was in Graham Greene's Travels With My Aunt; in the old context of the Orient Express, it was Venice that was at the edge of the Orient, which included the Near East - the Near East being, in those days, the Balkans/Greece and Anatolia; now confusingly used also for the Mid(dle) East.  As for "Oriental" I have Japanese-Canadian and Chinese-Canadian friends (3rd generation) who would more likely say "I'm Oriental" than "I'm Asian" - "Asian" being a newly-retooled word for East Asian, and now in our context (Vancouver BC) exclusive of South Asians; and which has never included Persians, Russians, Iraqis, etc, although technically of course "Asia" was in its original meaning Persia and Anatolia....Skookum1 23:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "[[Orient Express]]"

message: In diplomatic history, this is a reference to the European Powers' efforts to shore up the Ottoman Empire while at the same time carving it up; trying to keep a balanced exploitation going, at risk of complete dissolution and the chaos that would follow (uh, 1919-present...sound familiar?); but the context is clearly that the Ottoman Empire was the Orient.Skookum1 23:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Oriental Question 

message: I'm from Malaysia although I currently live in NZ and I feel the article is misleading. While the term Oriental is used in names without fuss, I don't feel it's a common or accepted term when used to describe people of the region. It would generally be regarded as antiquated and I suspect a number of people would find it mildly offensive (I would). Asian would generally be the preferred term by far IMHO. It might be used to describe the area/region but only in limited circumstances. E.g. oriental food, art etc might be okay but I think most would find someone talking about computer parts mostly being made in the orient as bizarre. Nil Einne 12:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article may be misleading 

message: Yeah, well, maybe she's only a "banana", but at about 5:30 pm today at my local Safeway, I struck up a conversation with the nice lady passing out samples of fresh mango and blueberry, who was "Asian of some kind", about persimmons.  In the midst of discussing the merits of the two kinds, she said "well, Orientals like to use it for....".  Now, I can't imagine a Canadian of African descent saying "well, niggers like to use it for..." or an Italian saying "wops like to use it for...".  She obviously preferred to use "Oriental" - in reference to people - without any qualms.  But again, maybe she's a banana and her opinions can be discounted as irrelevant in p.c.-think, huh?Skookum1 01:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The entire "oriental" vs. "asian" preference is a generational one.  Generally, Americans of asian ethnic descent under the age of 40 view the term "oriental" as a derogatory term.  This can be empirically tested by finding a crowd in an asiantown (yes, I just made up that term) of your choice and yelling "Wow, look at all the orientals!"  Assuming what I posit is correct, the person that stabs you will be under the age of 40.  You can label people's arguments about the offensiveness of the term "oriental" as "p.c.-think" all you want, but it won't change the fact that a large majority of politically and socially aware asian-americans consider it derogatory.  As a disclaimer, I have only interacted with asian-american communities in Hawaii, Washington, California, and New York.  I'm open to the idea that communities in other regions would have different opinions. --Umetaro 01:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Asians from Asia or older Asian Americans might not protest very loudly, but young Asian Americans are almost certain to. --Splitpeasoup 02:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But perhaps that's simply because they haven't grown up, and haven't clued into what's important in life; among which is the "don't be annoying" maxim from Miss Manners; don't belabour other people with YOUR insecurities, in other words...(yes, I know that can be turned back on me, but I'm not insecure in the slightest....).Skookum1 08:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Words are derogatory if they are consistently used with a derogatory meaning. "Nigger" is derogatory for that reason and that reason alone, not because there is something "inherently" wrong with the word. In Britain "Paki" is a derogatory term for a South Asian, derived from an abbreviation of "Pakistani". "Pakistan" actually means "pure country", so Paki means "pure" - hardly derogatory. But that's irrelevant. Likwise "Aussie" (an abbreviation of "Australian"), and "Brit" (an abbreviation of "Briton"), follow exactly the pattern as Paki, but are not thought to be derogatory because they are not used that way. In order to argue that Oriental is derogatory you would have to show that the choice of this word in usage, rather than another word of the same meaning, was intended to be derogatory. In other words you would have to show that it was the equivalent of saying "there's a nigger" rather than "there's a black person". It is the choice of use to convey derogatory intent that determines whether or not a word is an ethnic slur. Simply deciding that you don't like it for some reason is a wholly different issue. Paul B 15:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Orientals" heard just now at the supermarket

message: *Mentioning internet blogs & talks as ref is inappropriate. Only one site, the Chinese Medicine, was relevant to Wikipedia, and that didn't even mention anything about the word in its daily usage.
*Internet discussion is not the only place for examples. By giving internet as the primary example of the discussion that go on about the term oriental, you are being exclusively promotional.
*Give reference from website articles, books, research papers, etc. to wherever I put  in text or  in Wiki.
*Somebody define to me what "legislate" means in that context. Used in lawmaking? 
*Somebody needs to pull out a poll about "conservatives" being the ones who disagree. Michelle Malkin is just one person.
*"However the term "Oriental" remains a far more precise cultural-geographic descriptor than "Asian" which is equally if not more vague, and that all the peoples of the Orient have at one point in history been subjected to the authority and culture of the Middle Kingdom"
::That is POV. If some scholar actually advocates this, then put a ref.
*Kowtowing to the objections from liberals there has been a gradual shift in academia toward alternative terminology that they feel is more politically sensitive
::Old English is fine in writing essays and articles, but not terms like "Kowtow". Words that everybody can understand should fit. Actually, we don't even need that phrase.
*"Far Eastern" society doesn't use the term "Oriental".
*Ok, the "conservative" example was just one instance. We need a scholar who actually says this & writes it as one of his publishings.
(Wikimachine 14:45, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Old English"? The word "kowtowing" has nothing to do with old English. I don't know who added it, but it's obviously a witty and intentional reference to to the importation of "Oriental" terms into the English language, and to the idea of accepting customs defined by other cultures. Paul B 10:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't saying "kowtowing" = old English. It's Chinese word. And it's not fine in essays. (Wikimachine 17:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Kowtow" is not really appropriate anyway as it's hardly a neutral term. LDHan 18:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation of my fixes 

message: If the change of "The Far Eastern Association" to "Association for Asian Studies" is suppose to be an example of the gradual shift in academia toward alternative terminologies that supposedly are more politically proper than the term "Oriental", then it is not a valid one. 
First, as mentioned above the name of the society didn't use the term "Oriental". 
Second, according to the Association for Asian Studies article the change of name was because its expansion of its field from East Asia to cover all areas of Asia. The name change also seems to pre-date the common North American use of "Asian" to mean "East Asian". LDHan 15:56, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed it. LDHan 14:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Change of "The Far Eastern Association" to "Association for Asian Studies"