Talk:Kiva (organization)

message: I'm removing the  tag. The actual website might not be notable, but the article (despite the title) is about the organization, not just the website. As an organisation, I think it's notable enough and it has had a lot of recent media coverage . Angela. 11:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd suggest adding the most significant coverage to this article as sources. As it is, this page likely qualifies for the sources template. Erechtheus 17:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability 

message: searching for "kiva" goes straight to a page about Puebloan shelters; there's no link to a disambiguination page where someone could find kiva.org. I don't know how to make this happen but someone should....—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.185.37.97 (talk • contribs) 
:Thanks for the heads-up, I've gone ahead and added a notice to the front of the Kiva article. -Elmer Clark 21:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation 

message: As of 2017, Kiva and its competitors assess no interest. That makes the participation of individuals a purely eleemosynary act.  Nevertheless, a look at the table that includes fees shows that the median effective interest rate (including fees) is about 30%. I'm sure that microloans are benefiting a lot of people, but it appears that the agencies and Kiva employees are doing quite well. Rhadow (talk) 13:13, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Interest rates as of 2017

message: I have recently be trying to update the interest rates section. While updating the table of field partners' interest rates, I deleted about half of the existing table as it was filled with field partners who are no longer active. It seems best (in my opinion) to keep only active field partners in the table, but if anyone thinks there are old field partners who need to be included, you can put those entries back in. I've added some more recent field partners, but there are many more listed on Kiva's website who are not yet in the table. They have 173 current active partners, not counting experimental partners, so it is probably too much work too include all of them. Rachel 519 (talk) 16:06, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Interest rates updated 2018

message: I'm changing the historical payback rate of 100% into "almost" 100%; Kiva currently has a 0.35% default rate. @Cody M Wilson: the Kiva.org website now keeps running statistics about many things, including interest rates.
Ramonk 03:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also it should be mentioned that there are many definitions of payback rate, some with a potential to reach a rate of over 100%. Which one is used here?--Asdirk (talk) 10:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Payback rate 

message: First, sorry for the error in my edit summary when tagging the article with , it does contain one reference not linking to kiva.  Still, the concern is the same.  I'd like to see some independent references for this article.  --Dirk Beetstra T C 15:34, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I counted almost 40 stories on Kiva's press page.  They're also big enough to have an Alexa traffic ranking.  Feel free to add more references. RichardF 16:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I think it's clearly notable enough, and this is demonstrated in the article's references. Note that this is about sources/references rather than traffic estimates (e.g. Alexa). See Wikipedia:Notability (web)#Criteria for more. Cheers --Chriswaterguy talk 04:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability - second time 

message: I'm being bold and removing the extraneous comment that "Kiva" translates as "nice" in Finnish for mainly two reasons. 1) According to the FAQ on www.kiva.org, the name is taken from Swahili for "agreement" or "unity", so the incidental existence of the Finnish homonym is irrelevant to the intended meaning of the name. 2) The comment was, in any case, out of place. Should we include the FAQ's explanation of the meaning of the name? If so, let's find an appropriate placement for it in the article. Wilhelm meis 02:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good idea removing that. The French translation is irrelevant to the article. I think the Swahili meaning should be included in the article as this was the inspiration for the organisation's name, but I don't think anything more is necessary. 1manfern (talk) 13:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meaning of "Kiva" 

message: I think this article should have at least a brief mention of Muhammad Yunus and his influence on all organizations of this type. --Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 02:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Does he have anything to do with Kiva specifically? He's discussed in the microcredit article, and the Kiva article links to that. --Sushi Tax (talk) 01:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muhammad Yunus 

message: #Too many instances of bullet points, avoid that, focus on a paragraph format.
#Add cites to the places where there are fact needed tags, or just remove that unsourced info altogether. 
#Try to build some good sources, and list them in a "Further reading" section if they are not (yet) used in the article text.
Cirt (talk) 03:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor pointers 

message: Rated Low importance by the bay area project?!  Whats with that?
Yeah, the definition of low importance doesn't seem right for this article: Subject is notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia but primarily of specialized or local interest, not particularly well known or significant, or included primarily to achieve comprehensive coverage of another topic. This includes most high schools; most buildings; most neighborhoods outside of San Francisco; lesser-known natural areas, such as county open spaces; minor geographic features and aspects of natural history (such as endemic plant and animal species); most companies, organizations, and structures; biographies of less well-known Bay Area people, including most local bands.
Bremen (talk) 17:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Low Importance?! 

message: What organizations offer a way for the public to support microlending similar to Kiva.org? Can we cross-reference them in this article? 
Nick Levinson (talk) 21:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Some other microlending platforms are linked in this article, but I will try adding a few to the 'See also' section. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 20:42, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organizations similar to Kiva? 

message: I don't think the current paragraph applies any longer and needs to be updated.  Recent changes to the repayment practices of Kiva are basically that the recipient of the loan does not need to fully repay before the money is refunded to the lenders, and the money is not automatically deposited into a Paypal account.  You can choose to withdraw that money to your Paypal account or redistribute it as a gift, loan, or donation.
Bufori (talk) 10:35, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Payments 

message: The claim of "rampant fraud and theft" by AE&I is seems unsubstantiated in the cited link. It may well be true but the article in the link provided is more ambiguous. It seems to be that AE&I was certainly guilty of fraud and misreporting of both loan amounts and interest rates but the word “theft” is never used. I’m not familiar with the case and it seems that Kiva is sugar coating it. Does anyone know more about this?Jtbob (talk) 18:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't know much about it, but about the sugarcoating it, well, it is on their website, so naturally they're likely to go easier on themselves than an outside source. The good thing is that they apparently had caught it quickly enough. Outside source would be good though or a direct quote.--RossF18 (talk) 00:50, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it should be in the article, but putting it in the first paragraph seems a bit much. Maybe for a criticisms section or something, since it was only one of hundreds of lending partners they had, and putting it in the first paragraph, especially at the end of the paragraph, seems to give a negative first impression to an otherwise respectable nonprofit. 67.83.42.33 (talk) 16:30, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved the matter to a Controversy section and added a summary of the Kiva posting. I sense a desire to use POV language about the matter but I see no evidence to support words like "rampant". If there's an outside article it would be good to add it, but I've not yet found one. Webmink (talk) 20:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  AE&I Controversey 

message: Dear 0nullbinary0:  Unfortunately for censors of all types, Wikipedia keeps material that has been arbitrarily reverted.  To refresh your memory, I reproduce what you reverted today below (with the key points you (Kiva?) are clumsily attempting to censor in italics).
:Flat rate calculations, which are based on the amount of money the borrower receives at the beginning of the loan rather the average amount the borrow has access to during the loan, have been outlawed in developed countries (see for example the Truth in Lending Act).  
:Truth in lending laws require interest rates to be disclosed using the declining balance method of calculation. Truth in lending laws also require additional charges and fees that borrowers must pay to access their loans to be added to the disclosed APR. Many microcredit institutions charge 2-4% 'administration' or 'origination' fees, often on loans as short as a few months. Although these fees can significantly increase the actual cost of borrowing, Kiva does not include them in its quoted interest rates.  
:Because flat rates are charged as a fixed fraction of the money borrowed rather than as a fraction of the declining amount actually in use, pre-payments by borrowers don't result in a reduction in total interest. Instead, pre-payments further drive up the borrower's APR and reduce her incentive to pre-pay. These distortions in incentives are particularly problematic for microentrepreneurs, whose livelihoods depend on effective and timely rotation of their working capital."
It is not clear what you consider to violate NPOV in these words.  They are simple statements of fact that can be gleaned from any primary finance textbook or primer on truth in lending laws.  It is also obvious that they are not a criticism of Kiva's interest rates per se, and a response by Kiva that its interest rates are not excessive is irrelevant.  
I am sorry I did not respond to the comment you and Webmink made on March 15th.  It seemed that your comments were not a substantive effort to address the points I'd raised, but since you apparently believe they required a response, I will give you one now.  Kiva is an on-line microcredit lending platform.  By its own admission, it is passing through interest rates of MFIs based on a flat rate calculation.  It is unnecessary to identify a third party source that specifically states that Kiva is doing this, because there are many sources (some of which I've provided) who state that if that is what it is doing, there is a disclosure issue.  Furthermore, I have not stated that Kiva's practices are unethical.  Readers can judge that for themselves.  I am only stating that those who use Kiva should be able to understand what Kiva's interest rate calculations actually mean, since we use nothing similar in the West and such practices were banned here generations ago.  To clarify this is encyclopedic and is not in any sense original.  The article on ostriches on Wikipedia must point out that as a an animal classified as a bird, it is unusual in that it can't fly, and this feature has a variety of implications.  If an organization classified as a lending institution calculates and disclosures interest rates in a way that differs from virtually every other financial institution the reader might be aware of, it seems equally evident that the article on it should explain how it calculates interest rates, and what implications that has for its users.  Interest rates are arguably as important to a lending institution as flying is to a bird.   
It is not at all clear why you think I am a microfinance skeptic.  If you visit my Wikipedia user page, you will find that I wrote several articles on microfinance here, including solidarity lending, ROSCA, flat rate (finance) and microfinance.  Since you insist on raising the issue, I am a microfinance practitioner who has spent the past 8 years engaged in building microfinance systems and institutions around the world.  I have worked with several MFIs that have relationships with Kiva, as well as with many borrowers who deal with such MFIs.  
I have been doing constructive edits to Wikipedia for a while.  I do not conduct arbitrary reverts, and I don't get into revert wars.  I am aware that when people practice non-disclosure on a systematic basis, such as Kiva is now doing, they may eventually start to believe that censorship is also justified, such as you seem to be starting to believe.  I'll leave it up to you to start conforming with the norms and practices at Wikipedia, but if you continue this eventually I'll call in an administrator to restore order.  
Fear of disclosure breeds censorship.  Whether you are formally representing Kiva or not, do you really want that kind of rep sticking to Kiva?  I have attached an NPOV tag to the whole article.  I will try to reintroduce appropriate balance when I have time.Brett epic (talk) 04:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Fear of Disclosure Breeds Censorship

message: Almost the whole of the article violates NPOV.  Someone could have equally taken the entire advertising catalogue of Sears department store and turned it into a Wikipedia article, but that doesn't make it one.  Simply because the writers support Kiva for its social goals, does not imbue unbalanced reiteration of its marketing materials with neutrality.  Almost every citation is to a Kiva publication or a statement of some sort produced by Kiva.  
Please remove all references from Kiva (the organization) in this article, and replace with verifiable, third party references or remove the content supported this way altogether.Brett epic (talk) 04:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So, which part of the content do you dispute ? If you don't have a specific part, please abstain to create a useless controversy (or better, improve the content/put the adequate banner). Poppy (talk) 12:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV Dispute

message: *
Might have something useful. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 16:54, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source 

message: Kiva is now helping businesses in the USA; heard that on NPR. feel free to try to find an online article source for that. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:39, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kiva in USA 

message: I removed the entire "publicity" section today. It might be useful to harvest articles from reliable sources for use as citations, but keeping it as a list of endorsements and such is a little too self-serving to meet WP:NPOV, as well as WP:LAUNDRY. tedder (talk) 22:42, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your intent and your rationale, but I wonder if removing the entire section was overreaching just a little.  While I too would be inclined to remove the list, I think a few of the entries would be appropriate to be integrated into the articles prose, as some of these go to the subject's notability (such as the Bill Clinton and Oprah references).  I wonder if these, the Socialedge reference and the Leena Rao acknowledgment of a notable controversy ought to be kept.  I don't see any reason to keep the rest.  What do you think about keeping these four, integrated into the article's prose rather than listed?  I also think we need to integrate the Criticism section into the main body of the article, since Criticism sections can become troll magnets and thus are generally discouraged. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 03:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, that's why I posted the diff here, so they could easily be harvested and turned into prose. It was just a section that ended to be used for PR, in addition to the external links (which I also cleaned up recently). Please feel free to re-add anything as prose. tedder (talk) 03:45, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!  I think I'll try to work those four in somewhere.  I'll be a bit busy today, but I'll get to it some time over the next week.  It's not #1 on my most important things to do on WP list. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 04:22, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  removed Publicity section as laundry list 

message: I am pleased -- very pleased -- to be able to say that Kiva has abandoned its misleading interest rate disclosures and has introduced a transparent and easily understood system. I'm not sure exactly when that happened, but it would be sometime after I last edited here in April, 2009. 
Kiva is now reporting the interest rates paid by clients by calculating the portfolio yield reported by MFI's in their annual reports. This is the same method I used to introduce this issue on this page in August of 2007 (see below under "Interest Rates"). It fully accounts for the impact of flat rate (finance) calculations (which make rates appear far lower than they actually are) plus extra fees etc. (A 4% flat fee up-front on funds disbursed for 6 months -- not an uncommon situation -- can really drive up the APR on a loan, but the reported rate in Kiva's old system would not have included this). 
Frankly, I got very tired of the goons who were tearing down my section on this every time I posted it in February and March of this year. They did not address the issue (disclosure), instead choosing to repeatedly reframe my point as a complaint about high interest rates (which I have never objected to), and then reverting my posts. But unlike them, I do not engage in either censorship or revert wars. It is pleasing to see that Kiva has understood the issue and responded ethically and intelligently -- albeit rather slowly.
Subsequent to my last post someone posted a section on the page that reports interest rates paid by clients. Some of those rates look realistic, while others definitely don't. In any case, Kiva doesn't report interest rates paid by clients any more, and it is hard to see how it is possible to either keep this section current or even access the relevant information, in view of Kiva's change in policies. I suggest that whoever is behind this either take it down or rewrite it to reflect reality and Kiva's policies. That can be done by explaining that they now report on portfolio yields and clarifying to the reader how portfolio yields differ from interest rates.Brett epic (talk) 02:27, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks to Janiston for doing the legwork on this. As a result of his calculations the average rate charged has changed from 23% to 37% now that Kiva's portfolio yield calculations have been included. And far more important -- honesty! The best thing is that Kiva is no longer giving MFIs a perverse incentive to report flat rates, as that won't attract Americans to invest in the 'cheaper' loans that are actually more expensive!Brett epic (talk) 15:12, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interest Rate Disclosure -- Congratulations to Kiva 

message: "With microloans, women gain spending power and spend less on instant gratification vices like alcohol, prostitution, and drugs." 
Where is the citation for this?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.50.195.57 (talk) 12:59, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I was wondering the same thing. I suspect it's a case of poor phrasing and the person who wrote that sentence was trying to say that women don't have to *resort* to prostitution to support themselves. Muzilon (talk) 07:31, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Women wasting their money on prostitutes 

message: The new content in this section states:
In the latter half of 2013, there was controversy amongst LGBT lenders on the Kiva forums, as the website listed some transgender entrepreneurs from El Salvador[37] and Peru[38] and referred to them by the wrong name and gender. Although the loan recipients were obviously female and one of the descriptions specified that the recipient was transgender, Kiva still referred to them using male names and pronouns for no apparent reason. This caused several lenders to stop supporting Kiva, regarding these incidents as blatantly transphobic.
There area a few things about this section that are not factual or are misleading.  The author is being presumptuous regarding "right" and "wrong" gender of the borrowers in question -- presuming him/her to be right and the borrower profiles to be "wrong" without having any personal contact with the borrowers to understand their preference.  Second, it i inaccurate to state that Kiva "referred to them" as the loan profile content is written and uploaded by Kiva's field partners, not by Kiva.http://www.kiva.org/about/risk/field-partner-role  Last, there is no evidence or citation of lenders no longer supporting Kiva as a result of this "controversy" nor of the intent of those lenders (ie believing Kiva to be "blatantly transphobic") if they were to exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.36.235.12 (talk) 17:58, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The claims made in the section are not accompanied by any references that allow them to be verified. Even if they were, I am highly skeptical that "controversy . . . on the Kiva forums" is sufficiently noteworthy to mention in the article. Evidence that I'm wrong about that would need to involve independent secondary sources. For the time being, I have removed the section as original research. Rivertorch (talk) 19:25, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Section RE Controversy surrounding transgender loan recipients 

message: Removed the lengthy section spotlighting a known competing organization, Zidisha from the interest rates section. The information is consistent with Zidisha marketing language and the editor IP is attached to a series of edits inserting Zidisha into other pages. Seems like clear COI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/67.188.179.148
IP is also in Mountain View, where Zidisha is working this quarter http://www.ip-adress.com/reverse_ip/67.188.179.148
https://www.zidisha.org/forum/threads/zidisha-launches-at-y-combinator.572/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djbrusca (talk • contribs) 17:01, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zidisha Edits 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Kiva (organization). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090411005408/http://www.kiva.org/about/help/questions?subtopic=Completing%20the%20Payment%20Process to http://www.kiva.org/about/help/questions?subtopic=Completing%20the%20Payment%20Process
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090803220548/http://www.kiva.org/about/app.php?page=help&action=InterestRateComparison to http://www.kiva.org/about/app.php?page=help&action=InterestRateComparison
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100119070240/http://www.kiva.org/about/aboutPartner?id=46 to http://www.kiva.org/about/aboutPartner?id=46
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091226022213/http://www.kiva.org/about/aboutPartner?id=93 to http://www.kiva.org/about/aboutPartner?id=93
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120926100353/http://www.kivafriends.org/ to http://www.kivafriends.org/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071021094359/http://uk.intruders.tv/Premal-Shah-of-Kiva-org-on-microfinance-and-helping-poor-help-themselves_a226.html to http://uk.intruders.tv/Premal-Shah-of-Kiva-org-on-microfinance-and-helping-poor-help-themselves_a226.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:55, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The domain kivazip.org as of now (June 2018) redirects to a website - loans.no - that does not seem to be associated with Kiva. Furthermore the WHOIS query of kiva.org clearly shows the owner as "Kiva Microfunds", while for kivazip.org no registrant organization is reported. Finally, as added in the article, the subdomain zip.kiva.org redirects to kiva.org/borrow and I was not able to find any reference to Kiva Zip past 2016, specifically, a post on Kiva's blog with an accompanying Medium piece dated Jan, 14th 2016. So, I have remove the references to KivaZip.org in the article and added a little clarification in the Kiva Zip subsection. --CristianCantoro (talk) 23:15, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of references to KivaZip.org 

message: Problems (that my edit has, I think, fixed) with the following:
1.
"...Flannery wrote on Socialedge.org- a blog site designed to connect entrepreneurs for social benefit,
...does this somehow help Kiva achieve its mission of connecting people to alleviate poverty? It's debatable. I think that allowing our partner to decide which loans to post without much interference is a good thing...
Problem: The referent of "this" in the first quoted partial sentence is missing. 
2. 
"...However, some have decided to continue to lend through Kiva, but do so in the spirit of Flannery's remarks. "Kivans Against Cockfighting Loans" was created ..."
I can't see how "the spirit of Flannery's remarks" (and the rest of the quote to which "remarks" seems to refer is: "... We can be paternalistic when we start imposing our moral framework upon societies half a world away. Cockfighting in Peru is legal and part of a rich cultural tradition. It may not be humane or palatable from a Western perspective, but that misses the point. Kiva, the organization, should not be making those decisions. Our lenders should be the ones voting with their dollars.") can be taken to indicate or suggest (or necessarily indicate/suggest) that a sub-group of Kiva should be created that excludes animal-harming borrowers. 
--Philologia (talk) 11:37, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Controversial loans' subsection 

message: I lead communications for Kiva and am interested in updating the page to be more current. Knowing I cannot make updates directly, I'm utilizing this COI template and edit request wizard. I’m suggesting several revisions only for the opening description. Please bear with me as I have not made requests like this before. I've listed out each requested change, reason, and supporting reference separately per instructions on this wizard. 
List of requested changes to opening description:
1.
* What I think should be removed: headquartered in San Francisco, California, 
* Proposed text: incorporated in San Francisco, California and operating with a global and remote workforce with offices currently in San Francisco, Portland, Nairobi, Bogota and Bangkok.
* Why it should be changed: Kiva is incorporated or registered in San Francisco (see source #2 in the Kiva page). As of August 9, 2023, 79% of Kiva employees are not based in SF-Bay Area and are remote or associated with non-SF offices.
* References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): https://www.careers.kiva.org/ Data on current employees can be attributed to Kiva representative (I'm not sure if this is adequate for Wikipedia). 
2.
* What I think should be removed: that claims to allow people to lend money via the Internet to low-income entrepreneurs and students in 80 countries. 
* Proposed text: Best known for its crowdfunding lending platform Kiva.org that lets individuals lend as little as $5 to entrepreneurs and small business owners around the world, https://www.kiva.org/about https://money.usnews.com/investing/articles/best-peer-to-peer-lending-websites-for-investors it also launched Kiva Capital in 2019 as a subsidiary of Kiva.https://www.kiva.org/about/finances Kiva Capital is an asset manager that supports underserved communities with impact-first capital. By leveraging Kiva’s unique global lending network of financial services providers and social enterprises, Kiva Capital seeks to provide investors with deep financial inclusion and social enterprise impact. https://www.kiva.org/kiva-capital 
* Why it should be changed: Ability to lend on kiva.org in the U.S. and internationally is verified by multiple research papers and reputable news sources (see below). Kiva.org is the best known aspect of Kiva. This type of description highlighting what Kiva is most known for and an additional area of focus, mirrors descriptions of other nonprofits like Wikimedia Foundation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation
* References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): Additional references supporting removal of previous statement and substantiating Kiva's claims of online lending. https://www.kiva.org/build/research  https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2022/10/07/small-businesses-micro-loans-survive-inflation/8198183001/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/annefield/2022/02/28/women-entrepreneurs-with-microfinance-loans-face-lots-of-challenges-with-or-without-a-pandemic/?sh=1e2fc0f120a5 https://www.kiva.global/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Kiva-Report_Final_2022.pdf https://finance.yahoo.com/news/spend-1-000-loan-kiva-185253646.html
3.
* What I think should be removed: They have been accused of deceptive business practices, misleading donors into believing their funds would be used for specific individuals and misrepresenting other aspects of their operations.[4 - see Kiva page] 
* Proposed text: Kiva does this by crowdfunding loans and unlocking capital for the underserved, improving the quality and cost of financial services, and addressing the underlying barriers to financial access around the world. https://www.kiva.org/about
* Why it should be changed: Current text does not adhere to Wikipedia NPOV guidelines and provides “undue weight” in the “prominence of placement” in the opening paragraph. Proposed text gives wider context to how Kiva achieves its mission (not Kiva.org crowdfunding alone). See other nonprofit pages, e.g. Wikimedia Foundation for examples of placement of “disputes” and neutral placement. Lastly, per the previous section post by @BoosterBronze, the source is outdated. New posts cited below specifically provide corrections and updates from the author of the cited post and from Kiva’s co-founder (posted by the original blog author). 
* References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): Wikipedia references https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation References for "deceptive business practices" removal https://web.archive.org/web/20131108031352/http://www.cgdev.org/blog/kiva-revamps-how-it-explains-itself-users https://web.archive.org/web/20130528055603/http://www.cgdev.org/blog/reflections-kiva-story https://www.cgdev.org/blog/matt-flannery-kiva-ceo-and-co-founder-replies
4.
* What I think should be removed: and does not generally directly provide funds to specific individuals.[7 - see Kiva page] These organizations are charged fees by Kiva and borrowers pay interest on most loans.[8 - see Kiva page] Kiva is supported by grants, loans, and donations from its users, corporations, and national institutions.[9 - see Kiva page]
* Proposed text: They also provide zero-interest loans directly to individuals in the United States. https://www.kiva.org/borrow   [add paragraph] Kiva covers operating costs primarily from donations made by Kiva.org lenders, who can choose to make donations, separate from and in addition to loans. These cover more than two-thirds of Kiva’s operating costs. The remainder of costs are covered through grants, donations from foundations, corporations and other supporters, and from lending partner service fees. https://www.kiva.org/about/finances Kiva never collects interest on loans and lenders do not receive interest from the loans they fund. https://www.kiva.org/about/how Loans disbursed through Kiva U.S. are offered at 0% interest and have no fees.  https://www.kiva.org/borrow Most Kiva Lending Partners do apply interest rates to their loans to cover the high operational costs of microfinance and to provide additional services such as savings accounts, financial literacy training, and other support programs. https://www.kiva.org/blog/how-kiva-works-with-lending-partners https://www.kiva.org/blog/whats-up-with-microfinance-interest-rates
* Why it should be changed: The U.S loans addition highlights an important area of Kiva’s work. The source and information about operating costs is outdated and not as direct as the new source. The GiveWell source is outdated and a misleading characterization of Kiva’s “pre-disbursal” model. While most loan funds are disbursed directly to the Lending Partner facilitating them, those funds are related to specific individuals and repayments (or defaults) by those individuals are reflected in lenders’ accounts. [see sources 22 and 23 above]. Kiva's lending model is clearly outlined here. https://www.kiva.org/about/how 
* References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): See citations inline above. Other external sources on Kiva U.S. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2022/10/07/small-businesses-micro-loans-survive-inflation/8198183001/ https://rbj.net/2022/08/11/kiva-rochester-surpasses-1-million-in-small-business-loans/ https://www.kiva.org/lp/us-impact https://www.thegazette.com/business/loan-program-is-for-real/ 
5.
* What I think should be removed: more than 1.6 million loans, totaling over $1.68 billion,[3 - see Kiva page] 
* Proposed text:  nearly $2 billion https://www.kiva.org/about
* Why it should be changed: Number of loans not cited currently on Kiva website (can update when we make future website updates -- expected early 2024). Loan volume on Kiva.org is currently $1.93B.
* References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): See inline above
6.
* What I think should be removed: Despite its size, independent review by GiveWell failed to find evidence that the organization produces significant social benefit,[10 - see Kiva page] with at least one partner supposedly vetted by Kiva earning high profits while having a very high recipient drop-out rate.[11 - see Kiva page] 
* Why it should be removed: GiveWell references are limited and outdated sources. Undue weight is placed on these references, in particular one that cites a single, former partner out of 585 total historical partners. See current research on Kiva’s lending partners and Microfinance impact in sources.
* References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): https://www.kiva.global/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Kiva-Report_Final_2022.pdf https://www.kiva.org/blog/can-microfinance-actually-help-people-new-research-provides-a-definitive-yes https://60image.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/files/60-Decibels-Microfinance-Index-Report.pdf See extensive list of direct sources in this article https://www.kiva.org/blog/striving-for-maximum-positive-impact-in-microfinance https://www.kiva.org/lp/us-impact https://www-kiva-org.global.ssl.fastly.net/cms/kiva_us_60db_2022_impact_report_0.pdf
Kivacomms (talk) 22:49, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you @Spintendo for the clarification on the use of the COI request feature. I did also need to update my username as my old username @kivacomms was flagged. My updated username is now @Kivan111. I will raise the issues here per your recommendation. Kivan111 (talk) 22:18, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  COI request for edits to opening description 

message: # Controversial issues ought not to be resolved through the COI edit request feature, a feature which is primarily meant for COI editors to propose nominally controversial edits to be reviewed by a neutral third party editor. Edit requests involving overtly controversial proposals such as the ones proposed here are not recommended for use with the  template. 
# The process of content dispute resolution needed here should begin with a discussion of the issues with local editors here on this talk page. To that end, the COI editor is invited to continue the discussion below. 
# If consensus is achieved, and that consensus is that the information ought to be removed and/or clarified in the article, the COI editor may then invoke the  template to have a neutral editor make those changes. If no consensus is found here on the talk page alone, the COI editor may then follow up by using any of the subsequent dispute resolution strategies listed under WP:CONTENTDISPUTE. 
Regards,  Spintendo  00:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you @Spintendo for the clarification on the use of the COI request feature. I did also need to update my username as my old username @kivacomms was flagged. My updated username is now @Kivan111. I will raise the issues here per your recommendation. Kivan111 (talk) 22:18, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply 9-AUG-2023

message: Per the reply on the COI edit request feature, I'm suggesting ticking through the topics I raised in that request. Again, bear with me as this is my first set of posts. I had to update my username from @Kivacomms to @Kivan111, so hopefully it's clear that I posted the previous topic. 
Given the "Deceptive Business Practice" topic was raised already by @BoosterBronze, perhaps we can start discussion there. Here is the topic (reference links are from #3 in the COI post):
* What I think should be removed: They have been accused of deceptive business practices, misleading donors into believing their funds would be used for specific individuals and misrepresenting other aspects of their operations.[4 - see Kiva page]
* Proposed text: Kiva does this by crowdfunding loans and unlocking capital for the underserved, improving the quality and cost of financial services, and addressing the underlying barriers to financial access around the world.
* Why it should be changed: Current text does not adhere to Wikipedia NPOV guidelines and provides “undue weight” in the “prominence of placement” in the opening paragraph. Proposed text gives wider context to how Kiva achieves its mission (not Kiva.org crowdfunding alone). See other nonprofit pages, e.g. Wikimedia Foundation for examples of placement of “disputes” and neutral placement. Lastly, per the previous section post by @BoosterBronze, the source is outdated. New posts cited in my original COI post above specifically provide corrections and updates from the author of the cited post and from Kiva’s co-founder (posted by the original blog author).
* References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): Wikipedia references   References for "deceptive business practices" removal
Kivan111 (talk) 22:36, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not a particularly engaged editor of Wikipedia, but this characterization of Kiva as being "accused of deceptive business practices" clearly does not belong in the opening paragraph. I support removing it. Tweek (talk) 23:08, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: As a casual user without particular experience in the nitty gritty of maintaining strict NPOV, I'd also argue that the statement in question is not neutral to the extent that it explicitly misrepresents the article used as the source. I expected to find accusations of misconduct and found an analysis into why charitable giving trends towards this kind of deception, and that "What Kiva does behind the scenes is what it should do." Not at all in line with the "accusations" described in the opening paragraph of the Wiki article. 104.158.49.29 (talk) 19:52, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion on topics related to opening description