Talk:Minor Cooper Keith

message: Notable but not enough here for an article.  Merge and redirect. Thatcher131 16:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree.  I think Keith richly deserves his own article.  At the moment all the information here is taken from the article on the United Fruit Company, but than can and should be corrected.  -- Eb.hoop 02:47, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I also disagree.  It has been 2 months, and the vote is 2-1 against merge/redirect, so I am going to take off the tag.--Wehwalt 20:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: This is a notable topic, and great thanks for Wehwalt for working to develop it more.  It would have been a disservice and a step backwards for Wikipedia if it had been deleted or merged.  Kudos, Wehwalt!
That being said, I think it's time now for us all to really refine the article per Wikipedia standards.  (I am addressing these points to Wehwalt because he has been the primary contributor who has shown a desire to make this a really good article, but it is an open discussion to anyone who wants to join in and help.)
Sources-- The three sources that you contributed were:
#Faces of Costa Rica (dot) com-- 
::five very short paragraphs mentioning the year he started the railroad work, the length of the railroad and the long time it took to build it, the death of his brothers, an unexplained default by the Costa Rican govt., acquisition of land and new loans form Britain, beginning the banana trade, merging the fruit companies, that banana became important to Costa Rica, that his banana interests were incredibly lucrative.
::::It is from this source that you have apparently developed this article text:
::::::Keith was born in Brooklyn, New York. He was the nephew of U.S. railroad entrepreneur Henry Meiggs and took over Meiggs's contract to build a railroad in Costa Rica. Keith was involved from the start of the project in 1871 and took full control after Meiggs's death in 1877.
::::::Keith was rather the last resort for the Costa Ricans--the route was mountainous, the bank accounts empty, the securities of the railroad unsellable. Keith began this business with his two brothers, who both died in the endeavor. To have something to transport on the railroad--and to sell--Keith began planting bananas along the rail line, from roots he obtained from the French. He had begun planting bananas in 1873. He imported labor from all over the world.
::::::In this era when the transmittal of disease was not understood, and given the mountainous terrain the railroad had to go through, it is not surprising that the death toll was high, running to four thousand people.
#A broken link on "HighBeam Encyclopedia"-- 
::It is possible that the web page you originally used as a reference has been moved here:  (webpage informes us its text is "From: The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition|Date: 2007"), but I am not sure if it contains the same information you were using when you edited.  In any case the present HighBeam Encyclopedia article is one paragraph long and it states:
::::::::::Minor Cooper Keith 1848-1929, American magnate, a founder of the United Fruit Company, b. Brooklyn, N.Y. In the face of incredible hardships he built (1871-90) a railroad from the port of Limón, which he founded on the Caribbean, to San José, capital of Costa Rica. Banana plantations that he started experimentally near Limón in 1873 prospered, and he established the first steamship service to bring these bananas to the United States. He gained control of other plantations in Panama and Colombia and dominated the banana trade. In 1899 he combined his plantation interests with those of the Boston Fruit Company in the West Indies to form the United Fruit Company. He returned to railroad building, organized (1912) the International Railways of Central America, and completed an 800-mi (1,287-km) railway system, but died before realizing his dream of a line from Guatemala to the Panama Canal. His work profoundly altered the economic life of Central American countries.Bibliography: See W. Stewart, Keith and Costa Rica (1964).
::::It is from this source that you have apparently developed this article text:
::::::When the Costa Rican government defaulted on its payments in 1882, Keith had to borrow £1.2 million from London banks and from private investors in order to continue the difficult engineering project. In 1884, the government of President Próspero Fernández Oreamuno agreed to give Keith 800,000 acres (3,200 km²) of tax-free land along the railroad, plus a 99-year lease on the operation of the train route, and on the port of Limón. The railroad was completed in 1890, but the flow of passengers proved insufficient to finance Keith's debt. On the other hand, the sale of bananas grown in his lands and transported first by train to Limón and then by ship to the United States, proved very lucrative. Keith soon came to dominate the banana trade in Central America and in the Caribbean coast of Colombia.
::::::To market the bananas, Keith soon ran a steamship line from Limón to the United States. He bought up other Central American banana companies. In 1899, Keith combined his venture with Andrew W. Preston's Boston Fruit Company in the West Indies to form the United Fruit Company.
::::::He returned to railroad building, organized (1912) the International Railways of Central America, and completed an 800-mi (1,287-km) railway system, but died before realizing his dream of a line from Guatemala to the Panama Canal. (TEXT THAT WAS COPIED AND PASTED FROM A COPYRIGHTED SOURCE)  His goal, which was not realized, was to be able to move anything back and forth by rail from the United States to anywhere in Central America. His work profoundly altered the economic life of Central American countries.
#A Software Engineer's Self-Published Web Article entitled "The Economic Empire of the Tropics"-- 
::There's a lot of reasons we can't really call this a reliable source, but probably the most important indicator would be this statement by the author:"A History of my indirect ancestor Minor C Keith" and this one: "I caution the reader that neither this history nor any of the referenced works in this section are necessarily an acurate and unbiased depiction of the events in question. This web page is in part my notes as I conduct research on the matter. I have interwoven history from a variety sources including a couple obituaries, family records, Samuel Crowther's book, and various web sites."  The author's striking mention of his opinions against the American CIA overthrowing the communist-leaning government of Guatemala is decidedly WP:POV (though I may personally agree with him after my work with many Guatemalans who have fled the country).
::In any case, I note that this reference contains the following statements, two paragraphs above where he starts quoting the Crowther book: "He married the daughter of a former president of Costa Rica, Christina Castro. He became involved in archaeology when his construction projects uncovered ancient burial sites; upon his death, he donated the worlds "finest collection of ancient indian gold" to the American Museam of Natural History of New York."
::::It is from this source that you have apparently developed this article text:
::::::Keith married Cristina Castro Fernández, daughter of former President of Costa Rica José María Castro Madriz. He founded a chain of general stores. He left his collection of ancient Indian gold to the American Museum of Natural History in New York.
Verifiability--one of Wikipedia's core content policies 
:Every individual fact or assertion that we post in the article MUST come from a RELIABLE SOURCE and we are required to show EXACTLY where each individual fact or assertion came from.  Since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, we have an obligation to only report what third-party sources have said about our topic.
:I will direct your attention to the following quotation from Wikipedia policy: WP:PROVEIT "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation."
:For whatever reason, there are more facts asserted in the article than are contained in the sources, and, frankly, we need better sources.  This is something that we must fix.
Neutral Point of View--another one of Wikipedia's core content policies
:We cannot be an advocate for or against the reputation of any person, company, practice or policy.  We cannot write any opinionated content on whether Minor C. Keith was good or bad, whether the things he did were right or wrong, whether the Costa Rican people were ultimately harmed or benefited from his involvement in their economy.
:We can cite a reliable source that says he got all the money, if that's what the source says, and it is reliable.  We can cite a reliable source that says the Costa Rican government has issued proclamations in his honor as the great savior of their people, if there is a reliable source that says this happened.
:We cannot insert statements such as:
:::"Keith was rather the last resort for the Costa Ricans" (he was their savior? WHO SAYS? an encyclopedia can't say that.  If you can find a source that reports that someone speaking officially on behalf of the Costa Rican government said so, the article can reference who said it and what they said.)
:::"However, such tax breaks were a sin qua non to development of the rugged Costa Rican interior."  (this is editorializing.  WHO SAYS? Wikipedia can't make "right or wrong" justifications of a subjects actions, even if the actions in a moral sense might be truly justifiable.  We can only report the facts from reliable sources.)
:::"it is not surprising that the death toll was high, running to four thousand people."  (if it isn't a surprise, why say so?  Ta-daaaa!  this is not a surprise!  and WHO SAYS it isn't a surprise?  a Wikipedia editor?  We're not supposed to say our personal opinions.) 
Well, okay, this is plenty long for now.  These are my challenges for improving the article.  happy editing! OfficeGirl 20:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll work on some rephrasing. Thank you for the kudos.--Wehwalt 12:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with [[WP:RS|Sources]], [[WP:V|Verifiability]] and [[WP:NPOV|Neutral Point of View]] 

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