Talk:No Cards

message: An editor has twice suggested that Joseph Benjamin Williams may have composed "No Cards".  However, none of the references that he cites provide any support for this assertion, other than the fact that he was the publisher's son and composed another short Gilbert work, Eyes and No Eyes.  We need a published source to actually support the claim.   I find this assertion particularly dubious, in view of the fact that although several bios about him are cited, none of them suggests that he had anything to do with "No Cards"; this strongly implies that he had nothing to do with it.  See this important policy: WP:V.  Thanks!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:50, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it being contested that Joseph Benjamin Williams (1847-1923) used the pseudonym "Lionel Elliott"? (see [International Music Score Library Project (IMSLP)]). If he did, then he seems a much more likely candidate than the "J. W. Elliot" currently cited. -- User:Regwik 18:15, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes.  I do not find this citation persuasive.  Furthermore, like the others, it lists "Eyes and No Eyes" and other "Florian Pascal" works, but it does NOT list "No Cards".  It does not assert that he composed anything under the name Lionel Elliott.  this does not mention Elliott or "No Cards".  Please see WP:Verifiability, our police on using references.  See also WP:Reliable sources.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:59, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In what way is the suggested "J. W. Elliot" attribution persuasive or verifiable?  Have I missed something? -- User:Regwik 22:30, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a direct quote from a Gilbert biography by Jane Stedman, an acknowledged Gilbert and Sullivan expert.  This biography is one of the standard Gilbert biographies.   It is verifiable because we have provided the page number in the book where you can find the quote.  If you can find a WP:Reliable source that specifically says that Williams is or even might be the composer of "No Cards", we would be happy to quote that source.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:43, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The point you are missing here is that Stedman's "faintly possible" attribution is itself complete speculation. Just because this piece of speculation got published does not make it reliable or verifiable. I am surprised that you think providing "the page number in the book" is a form of verification. -- User:Regwik 18:30, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

text: Whoa! Wikipedia ground rules are paramount. Personal research, however ingenious, is not acceptable. For any statement a published citation must be available. If Regwik has any such citable evidence that Joseph Benjamin Williams composed the score, he/she can, and I hope will, cite it. Otherwise it is personal speculation, which is by WP rules inadmissible. It is, as Ssilvers rightly says, admissible to say that "published source X" speculates such-and-such, but it is not admissible to chuck in one's own speculation. Tim riley (talk) 18:41, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: My only "evidence" is that both Library of Congress and the National Library of Australia include "Lionel Elliott" as one of the many pseudonyms used by Joseph Benjamin Williams (1847-1923) - see the [Virtual International Authority File] which lists Florian Pascal, Lionel Elliott, Pierre Duchêsnes, Arthur Grenville, Emlyn St. Maur, Mark Calmond, J. B. Waldeck, Charles Tourville, and Conrad Huber. I assume that these two institutions do not indulge in idle speculation but have published sources to which I myself do not have access. Nevertheless, since no one has ever come up with a credible suggestion as to who the "Lionel Elliott" who wrote "No Cards" might be, it seemed to me to be quite reasonable to at least raise it as a possibility for further investigation. I did not expect to meet such a defensive barrage.~~-- User:Regwik 21:00, 3 Aug 2011 (UTC)

text: Actually I could cite thousands upon thousands of perfectly good and useful Wikipedia entries that do not slavishly follow your "rule" - but this has become a dialogue of the deaf so I'm out. ~~-- User:Regwik 2:15, 9 Aug 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Composer