Talk:Out of India theory/WIN

message: This is the page to archive discussions that "sane wikipedians" have issue with.Bakaman Bakatalk 02:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

message: In Arkaim in Russia , just north to Kazakhstan ; a city of around 2,000 to 2,500 people was found on steppes plains. Read what biggest russian newspaper Pravda says about it from this link http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/15814_Arkaim.html . Arkaim town , contains sewage system , well , food storage area - Each house was outfitted with “all modern conveniences,” - the town was built as a projected plan and it was not some natural development.They had bronze smelting ovan. They had central ritual site with arranged bonfires. It is dated 1700 BC. It's claimed to have some Astronomy in it and is called Swastika City.
Now, above descriptions in Pravda says that it was a planned town with sewage system, bronze smelting ovan , systematically arranged ritualistic fireplace. This are Hallmark of IVC people who were very advanced from central asian nomads.So, how some steppe nomads called `aryan' is resembling with IVC people ? If claims of Astronomy and Swastika is considered than also it's clear indication that this was IVC Indians' settlement who migrated to this land area after complete drying of Saraswati river after 1900 BC. Astronomy which is woven in Indian life and culture much more than any other people on the earth or IVC excavated Indian Swastika symbol - is hallmark of Indian culture.
This means that Arkaim was settlement of migrated IVC Indians. Suppose, this is some nomadic central asian steppes people's town ( what a irony ! nomadic and town - both words are opposites to each other ); then nomads learnt so much from IVC Indians that they tried to replicate their life in steppes !
But, then how those nomads were able to impart their language & culture on vast Indian subcontinent !
WIN 06:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly certain users think they are too high and mighty to counter WIN's logic.Bakaman Bakatalk 17:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: no, no, indeed, WIN is absolutely right, Arkaim is Swastika City, hence it was planned and built by Vedic Indo-Aryans, nothing could be more obvious than that. I mean, come on, who but Vedic Aryans could plan their way out of a paper bag, let alone plan sewers or fireplaces?? It must be Aryans, everybody else at the time were pretty much monkeys, what more proof do they need, for crying out loud? Fie, stupid, arrogant, eurocentric academia, why do we need specialists in the first place if they cannot see things as obvious as this. dab (ᛏ) 18:11, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you for proving my point.Bakaman Bakatalk 18:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: indeed. this should be Aryapedia anyway, non-Aryans need not apply, you and WIN would then be free to tell the self-evident truth without wasting time with inferior half-wits. Oh wait, you could already do that if you set up your own wiki at aryapedia.org, think about that. dab (ᛏ) 18:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

text: And what logic would that be? It's nice that WIN has finally discovered the existence of the Sintashta-Petrovka culture. It's difficult to understand why he would think the existence of ovens and sewers is evidence of links to the IVC, unless only Indian Übermenschen could ever invent such things. You know, other people had them too. In other respects there is almost no resemblance to IVC cities - as a simple look at the place should indicate. Nor, btw, are there any swastikas there. Paul B 19:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: yes, the sad truth is that WIN keeps us amused for weeks before he goes and reads (alright, looks at the intro of) one other article to throw in the fray. At this rate, it will be years before he reaches the rationalism or even just WP:ENC page :p dab (ᛏ) 20:03, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

text: What are you trying to suggest with "Übermenschen"? You suggesting WIN's a Nazi, because we do have a german user editing this article and his name's not WIN.Bakaman Bakatalk 19:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is his name, Mr. Godwin? I am about as German as Arkaim is in India, and your conclusion German>Nazi is about as sound as Swastika>Aryan. I am sure it all makes sense in your head, though. dab (ᛏ) 20:01, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Unlike user subhash_bose, I have no idea what these german phrases mean. Perhaps if you translate it (since you are German) I'd know what it means. I was suggesting that you were the only one who actually knows what Ubermenschen means, and that Paul Barlow's useless rant fell on deaf ears.Bakaman Bakatalk 00:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not German, but I can answer your question. Or you could have just looked it up, whatever. Anyway, in brief, Übermensch, plural Übermenschen, was a term coined, or at least made famous, by the 19th century German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche. A literal translation would be "overman", although it means something more like "superman" or "superior man". Although Nietzsche himself was not a national socialist (far from it, his writings often pretty violently rejects Germany, the German people, and blind nationalist ideologies in general) the idea was later appropriated by the Nazis and incorperated into their national/biological mysticism. To the Nazis, anyone of "Aryan" descent was an übermensch, and anyone not of "Aryan" descent was an untermensch, an under man. I'm guessing Paul Barlow was pointing out that the prejudice that only sophisticated and clever Aryan Indus Valley Indians could have taught the Central Asians how to build sewers or ovens is pretty much identical to the Nazi prejudice that German Übermenschen were the source of the Aryan culture and that Aryans could only have come from superior Germany. Both are ridiculous, imperalist notions based entirely on politics, not fact. --Krsont 11:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks for not being a dick and being straightforward about this. I dont think Paul Barlow meant that though, I think he obviously wanted to paint me as a Nazi, because I'm a Hindutva sympathizer or as dab says "chatterbot from the BJP headquarters".Bakaman Bakatalk 16:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant exactly what Kronst said (thanks Kronst for expaining). BTW, if you didn't know the meaning of the word why would you think it was intended to "paint you as a Nazi"? That's a rather idiosyncratic interpretation, since the comment was explicitly in response to what WIN said!Paul B 20:12, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Because painting people as Nazi is generally why people use German words. Otherwise there are 6000 other languages you can express yourself in, its funny why only german had to be used.Bakaman Bakatalk 21:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Kronst explained clearly why German was used. Not wishing to create too much angst or to display schadenfreude, I'm quite sure that there are many reasons why German might be used that have nothing to do with Nazis. It may just be the Weltanschauung created by the post WW2 zeitgeist: or perhaps your have been blitzed a by Nazi references creating a gestalt that equates Germanness with Nazism. Very sad. Still, times change - alle herrlichkeit des Menschen, wie des Grases Blumen. Paul B 22:06, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nein mein freund.Bakaman Bakatalk 22:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bs, you are being a dick, consistently, and you know you are. This is about the fifth time you made your gratuituos Nazi allusions in mock innocence. If you really think you are so smart, why don't you write some useful article for a change? Or do you really enjoy pestering people and intruding on adults' discussions with your puerile smugness so much? You should then join your peers in an online discussion forum, because that isn't what we do on Wikipedia. dab (ᛏ) 08:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arkaim - a nomadic steppe town or migrated IVC Indians planned town ? 

message: Vedas were created in ancient India by vedic rishis. Then why below names which are from Veda & other Sanskrit scriptures , are found in specially Russia or other European countires ?
*Mitrova - Russian town name = Mitra - Vedic deity
*Agnova - Russian surname = Agni - Vedic deity
*Purvova - Rus. name = Purva - Eng. East
*Vedova - Netherland , Russian name = Veda
*Ravova - Serbian name = Ravi - Sun
*Devova - Rus. name = Deva
*Indrova - Czech name = Indra - Vedic & Puranic Hindu God
*Meneka - Czech name = Menaka - famous Apsara of Puranas
*Dasova - Cz. surname = Das - servant ( and Dravidians as per obsolete AIT )
*Rambova - Rus. female name = Rambha - famous Apsara of Puranas
*Brugov - Male German name = Bhrigu - famous Vedic rishi on whose name ancient & historical seaport Bhrigukachch ( or current Bharuch ) is named
*Slastikov, Slastik - Rus.,Polish name = Swastik - Hindu sign dating IVC
*Mantrov, Mantrova - Rus. name = Mantra
*Havanova - Rus. name = Havan - Vedic Firepit or Vedic Fire ritual ( a major Hindu practice even today )
*Yamnova - Rus. name = Yamuna - famous & big Indian river
*Gargova - Rus. name = Garg - Vedic rishi or a Hindu surname finding lineage from Rishi Garg
*Mudrova - Rus. name = Mudra
*Durgova - Rus., Bulgarian female name = Durga - Hindu female God from Three major Goddess who represent different aspects of virtues. And, wife of Hindu trinity Shiva.
*Gangova - Croatian name = Ganga - Ganga river's name or Eng. Ganges river
*Parvatova - Rus. female name = Parvati - origianl name of Durga - Hindu female goddess
*Shaktova - Rus. surname = Shakti - Eng. Energy. - Hindu Shaktism
*Kaspova,Kashapova - Rus. surname = Kashyapa - Vedic & Puranic rishi who is told to go to far Northern countries to India. Name Kashmir , Caspian etc. is told to derive from his name.
*Agatsova - Rus. surname = Agastya - Vedic Rishi
*Rudrova - Rus., Cz. name = Rudra - Vedic God and other name of Shiva
*Gitova - Rus. surname = Gita - associated with Bhagvad Gita
*Omsk - Rus. city = Aum or Om - famous Hindu symbol
*Minsk - Rus. city = Min - Skt. word meaning fish
*Novosibirsk - Rus. city = Nava Shibir - Skt. word meaning New Settlement.
Above are just few names which I could transform in Russian style and searched from Google. Similar way there will be more transformation of Sanskrit words in other IE languages which I am not able to reconstruct myself right now and search on the net. Any other names in this list is most welcome.
Since Vedas are Indian then how the above so many names are found in Europe which are Vedic or Puranic ? [User:WIN|WIN]] 06:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: WIN, you really do not need to prove that sanskrit and IE-languages are related that is already well established. However your wordlists do NOT support your conclusions in the least. Please, please, please read a book about historical linguistics. User:Maunus 06:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: WIN, you should really go and write a book about this. Why do you still bother posting your stuff to Wikipedia:talkpages when you know this isn't welcome, you know it has no effect beyond slightly amusing us, and you aren't interested in listening or reading what scholars have to say? Just go and publish your ideas on your own website or in book form. Thank you and goodbye. dab (ᛏ) 07:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I reckon it's worth to mention these connections somewhere. If we assume Aryans originated in Central Asia, they would not have knowledge of the Ganga and the Yamuna. If we assume Hinduism originated in c. 1500 BC in India, it would again, mean that these connections between cities and words do not fit. Nobleeagle  [TALK] [C] 08:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

text: What conections are you referring to? Not WIN's Russian surname list? There's obviously no reason to assume that Central Asian ancestors of Vedic culture would know of the Yamuna, nor does anyone say they did. I looked up one of WIN's names. "Mitrov(a)" derives from a diminutive form of Dmitry, the Russian variant of the Greek name Dimetrios, itself derived from Demeter. So it ultimately traces back to a Greek deity, not a Vedic one. Does this prove that the Mitrovs were migrants from Greece? Paul B 16:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I am native to the extreme West of Eurasia and yet the Yamuna is known to me. Get it, they migrated, over several centuries. 1900 BC: Kazakhstan, Yamuna not known. 1000 BC: Gangetic plain, Yamuna known. Amazing, isn't it, the theory is so advanced, it includes considerations of space and time!! You do realize, I trust, that the distance from the Indus to the Oxus (Afghan-Tajik border) is about a third of the distance from the Indus to Varanasi. No Swastika was excavated in Arkaim btw, these are claims of your Russian fellow crackpots. Oh, and the Swastika plays no role in Vedic religion, it only appears to gain importance in Hinduism in Vedantic times. dab (ᛏ) 09:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

text: We have no reason to believe that Russians with the surname "Yamnova" are named after the Yamuna, or that the name "Slastikov" is somehow connected to the word Swastika. Until someone provides etymologies for these names that link them to Indian words, this evidence tells us nothing. It is also a clear case of OR. Paul B 13:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

text: um, because the Yamuna is in the Gangetic plain? The people living in the town weren't nomads. Kazakhstan is only 2,724,900 km² large, so maybe there was room for a nomad or two outside Arkaim? Do you even realize the level of stupidity of your "contributions"? Even the most vicious vandals over at Rajput made more sense than your imperturbable dimness. There is a possible BMAC connection with Arkaim. Note that the floor plan is round, like BMAC settlements, and unlike IVC settlements. Central Asia had its very own Bronze Age 'urban' culture, not more connected to the IVC than the IVC was connected to Elam. And the Rigveda is composed from the point of view outside these towns, hence the 'nomadic' theme. These are the very basics, check Parpola or anybody. We shouldn't have to discuss on such an infernal level. "Out of India" was a reasonable theory in the 19th century, and we should address that, not random misguided national mysticism, try to "de-colonialize your mind" on some other forum, WIN. dab (ᛏ) 15:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sanskrit Vedic & Puranic names in Europe 

message: In Croatia there is Vucedol culture which is dated 3000 to 2200 BC and which is told as earliest Indo-European culture in Europe. Read http://www.geocities.com/vucedol_culture/ for complete info. These people were remarkably much more advanced than any nomads of central asia. They were having high knowledge of astronomy, copper smelting technique, high quality of pottery, developed labour divison sytem etc. which are marker of high ( & certainly not nomad ) culture.
I have question - as they were earliest Indo-Europeans in Europe dating 3000 - 2200 BC then these ancient people were not nomads & civilized in Croatia. But Croatian language is found of Indo-Iranian origin and Croatians call their language as Hvar and themselves as Hrvati which is non-slavic name ( like Indians is Anglisized name of Bharat ). Then it means that ( as per OIT ) that , these early Aryans left India very early and it matches with IVC as Vedantic age.
Now, if AIT/AM is believed then these nomad aryans took much more time to travel from central asia to India then Croatia. ( central asia was nearer to India - in terms of culture or distance ). Then how nomad aryans reaches faster to Croatia then reaching ancient India ( Afghanistan included ). And Remember - Arabs gained major knowledge of Astronomy from India by translating Sanskrit scriptures. WIN 13:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: you are spouting pure nonsense again. Croatians aren't Indo-Iranians. The Slavs arrived in the Balkans in the 6th century AD, some 23 centuries after the Indo-Aryans settled in Gandhari. dab (ᛏ) 07:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, WIN, it's a geocities website. You can write whatever you like on those things. Vucedol is an archaelogical culture of the so-called copper age. People had some sort of "system of astronomy" going back to Stonehenge. So what? We have no idea what language they spoke. Maybe it was some ancestor of IE. There's no way of knowing. The "nomad aryans" didn't just make up their own language out of thin air. They inherited it from their own ancestors. But we have no way of reaching back through time to some Proto-PIE, so it just becomes guesswork. Paul B 10:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why do you keep proposing your original research based on non reliable sources on these pages WIN? If you want to deduce anything at all write an article about it and publish it in a peerreviewed journal and when it gains wide acceptance in the scientific community we can start putting it here. This is not a discussion forum nor a place to present personal original research.Maunus 11:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: since this guy obviously just Doesn't Get It, I suggest editors begin removing his ramblings again. He has filled pages and pages with the stuff by now. This is NOT what Wikipedia is for. For the sake of uncluttered talkpages, please try to keep some order here. We do not as a rule remove comments or opinions from talkpages just because they aren't referenced, but this is an extreme case. dab (ᛏ) 11:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It doesn't matter what you or dab or anyone here thinks it implies. It matters what reliable sources say about the material. If reliable sources have nothing to say about the vucedol culture then there is no need at all for mentioning it here. Please discontinue turning this talk page into a discussion page for or against the OIT theory. The page needs only to present what the theory is in a balanced way, and what we need to discuss here is how to do that. Publish your opinions and ideas on a geocities site.Maunus 07:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: IE Vucedol culture in Croatia dating 3000 - 2200 BC 

message: I have recently noticed that OIT opposers are deleting my points from talk pages. It's not for you opposers who want to behave like Supremist. When you are getting some more & more unpleasing points , you have started resort in deletion of those points. You don't have answers that is OK but you don't want others to read and put it in the article, that is the objection. WIN 05:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Warning to OIT opposers for deleting points