Talk:Allan Holdsworth

message: Over the past few years a variety of colourful names have been used to describe this article: dreadful, absolute dross, garbage, terrible, hack job, and a curious repetition of the word literate/illiterate—all from IPs whose own literacy is certainly not perfect, despite their seemingly high opinion of themselves. So! I think the phrase "Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" applies here. Consider this an appeal to the so-called "qualified" editors out there who feel insulted as to how bad this article is. I will be the first to admit that it is indeed lacking in many things (Holdsworth's early life, what amps he has used, interesting anecdotes from his 1970s–80s career, etc.), but almost every article on Wikipedia is a work in progress. New things can always be added and the old ones expanded upon. Furthermore, if the literacy is so incredibly bad, then for cryin' out loud let's have some details! What is there to be achieved by merely passing through on a talk page using an IP, shitting on the content like a bunch of grumpy old men, all whilst not offering anything in the way of improvements that could be made? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 07:34, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: A few years have passed since, but I just read the article now and have found it pretty good.  I have seen far worse.  Thanks, 76.10.128.192 (talk) 18:50, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  An invitation 

message: Please be aware of this Facebook post. I have not found any news or reliable sources supporting it so far though. This is the source of the edit by an IP earlier. -- ferret (talk) 17:51, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Kiesel Guitars has also posted about it now. I don't think they would announce the death of a major endorser without confirming. -- ferret (talk) 18:19, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

text: We had the FB page locked down for a while because it was going so crazy. It has been opened up again since then. You have the correct date, April 15. Manning (talk) 02:45, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reported/rumored death 

message: Unfortunately the media coverage has the incorrect date of death. He was discovered on the 16th but died on the 15th according to the coroner (I got this information from his daughter who is a close friend of mine). Hopefully the media will post the correct date, else I can post the coroner's report when I can get a copy of it. Manning (talk) 11:46, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for spotting that, Manning. But we can't use information from his daughter, even in she is a close friend. How do we get round that in the interim? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:49, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: All good, Billboard had the correct date. Manning (talk) 12:00, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correct date of death - April 15 

message: Is Holdsworth's contribution to the 1995 Suffer album, for Gongzilla, notable? I think we'd need sources to support it? Here's one, but nobody trusts dicscogs, of course. Ah, Dutch wiki, bless! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:31, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I've always been somewhat irked by the amount of stuff chucked into the With other artists section—whilst it's nice for fans to cross-check his work, I still think it should only include albums which have a(n) WP article proving notability, rather than just blank entries with an artist link. There used to be a nice, comprehensive list of his collabs on the official Holdsworth site, so perhaps a link to that in the form of a ref or in External links? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 21:21, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that sounds sensible. It's sometimes hard to know where to draw the line between piped links and red links. Not sure if red links have been banned yet from ay article linked at Main page. There's no reason why a Suffer article could not be created. A nice album, although no credit for Allan (tracks: 1, 2, 6, 9) on the cover? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:23, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: My two cents: If there's a source backing it, and the artist OR album OR song is notable, include it. If none of the components are notable and there's not a strong reliable source to back its existence, it can be safely excluded. If the listing of collaborations feels particularly long, we can try a terser format of just "Artist - Album - Song" and put them in a 3-4 column table to avoid a super long list. -- ferret (talk) 11:53, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gongzilla 

message: http://ultimateclassicrock.com/allan-holdsworth-funeral/ 104.169.27.100 (talk) 09:01, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  AH funeral ...... 

message: I've had off-wiki communication from the Holdsworth family over the NY Times article that claimed that Allan Holdsworth died from a heart attack. I appreciate that the NYT counts as a reliable source, however the family insists it is inaccurate. They claim the former manager had no right to speak of the family's behalf. They have said if Wikipedia persists in referencing the  incorrect NY Times article, they will take legal action against Wikipedia. 
I'm no legal expert, but for now, I suggest we do NOT add in the disputed claim. Manning (talk) 23:30, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I have raised the off-wiki legal threat with Oversight and the WMF. Let's do nothing until we receive guidance from them. Manning (talk) 23:36, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: So right now, we have hidden a reliable source in favor of an unsourced statement. Wikipedia is just reporting whats in another source, so I'm confident there's no legal ground against Wikipedia at all. If the family has an issue with the story they should be contacting NYT. I recommend the sourced content, which was clearly attributed as being reported by NYT, be restored. WP:V must be met. -- ferret (talk) 21:22, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

text: See previous thread "Removing sourced information on cause of death." Martinevans123 (talk) 21:37, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Look I'm in a bind because I am both an admin of Wikipedia and a friend of the family. Is it REALLY so important to you guys that this incorrect (and distressing) statement be included here? I know there are rules and policies, but there is also common decency. Manning (talk) 00:32, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legal threat - cause of death 

message: I corrected the Gordon Beck albums listed in the 'With Other Artists' section, but then noticed that one of the albums was already listed above in Collaborations.
If the Collaborations were integrated into the 'with other artists' section, i feel the page would work more effectively. Thoughts? Precedent?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tigerpupil (talk • contribs) 23:57, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I've actually been planning on splitting the entire discography section into a new article, namely Allan Holdsworth discography. Only Holdsworth's solo work should be listed in this article, whilst collaborations and guest appearances should be in the upcoming new one. Standard practice for most musicians on WP. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:39, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Collaborations Albums 

message: Hi, the article is fairly decent overall. However, I think the second paragraph is somewhat lacking. First of all, it does not effectively summarize Holdsworth's work. Some of it is correct, but it is written in a style which is not readily understandable by a layman. I'm not familiar with Wikipedia's policy on that matter, but it should be possible to make it accessible to the general reader. Second, there are absolutely no references in the second introductory paragraph. There are references in the "style" section, would it not be a good idea to incorporate those in the introduction? Third, it does not properly encapsulate the things that made Holdsworth's contribution noteworthy. 
I have updated my website of Holdsworth interviews, with several stories added. There is also a sort of skeleton of a Holdsworth encyclopedia, featuring a comprehensive discography. It should contain most of the references needed. Please feel free to add it to external links. http://fingerprintsweb.net/ahwiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Also, there is an excellent blog which covers Allan's life and career thematically in depth. All biographical material is well sourced, and it is the closest thing to an actual Holdsworth biography. As such, it should provide an excellent one-stop source for Wikipedia editors. It should absolutely be added to external links. http://threadoflunacy.blogspot.no/
Here is the short summary I use on my own website. It is not sourced, although it could easily be. If any editors think there are elements that could be used to replace the introduction, please feel free:
---
Allan Holdsworth (1946-2017) was a British musician, composer and bandleader. He was primarily known for his work on electric guitar, and to a somewhat lesser extent for his use of the SynthAxe synthesizer controller. In addition, he also occasionally performed on vocals and violin, live and on record, especially in earlier years.
Holdsworth's musical style was often referred to as jazz-rock or fusion, although he disapproved of such labels. His music was influenced by jazz in that he devoted most of his energy to improvising on chord changes, but rhythmically and sonically he drew heavily on rock, and harmonically he created a very personal amalgam of jazz harmony blended with contemporary classical music of the 20th century. He eschewed traditional forms such as the blues or jazz standards, with a few notable exceptions.
Holdsworth was known for his distinctive guitar work both as a soloist and accompanist. His guitar solo work pioneered the use of legato technique combined with sophisticated signal processing, harnessing amp distortion, to create a fluid sound recognized by fast and harmonically complex scalar runs, which has drawn analogies to John Coltrane. His chordal work is recognized by a pianistic approach, with the use of close intervals and unusual chord voicings, and a sophisticated use of delay, chorus and pitch shifting, to create a lush, etheral sound.
---
I choose not to participate in any edits of this article, as I have enough on my hands running my own site. Regards, Per 2001:700:300:1725:0:0:0:36 (talk) 00:57, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The heads up is appreciated, although other Wikis are not allowed as sources around here (I don't have the guideline to hand, but it's somewhere out there in WP:BLPSOURCES). It's been a while since I've dealt with the bio aspects of this article, but I'll give it a go when I have time. Your suggestions will be taken on board. Once again, thanks. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 21:12, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for rewrite of introduction. 

message: The current section about Allan's amplifiers is currently a mess. Throughout his career, Allan used a countless number of amplifiers, had a number of endorsements, made many modifications, and supplemented his sound by using extensive amounts of outboard gear. The last paragraph on his use of Quilter amps is dubious, as it comes from the company's own web site. Hopefully, the release of Ed Chang's book on Allan in April 2020 will help improve sources for the entire section.KaldeFakta68 (talk) 13:28, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Good spot. That shouldn't be allowed to stay on the article without better sources. Currently it fails WP:PRIMARY. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 16:54, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  But one thing for sure: In his later years he used several Yamaha Magicstomps as either preamp or effect processor. For gigs he connected them to amps provided to him by the venue.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:C22:A865:A00:15A3:DCB2:E6BB:9CAD (talk) 09:30, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amplifier section 

message: It needs to be emphasized until it is understood.  It is not appropriate to call Allan a British guitarist, that is an absurdly bad form, he was an English guitarist. Allan's music is an expression of his upbringing which happened in a very specific part of England, Bradford, a place where there was simply an English identity in Allan's time, and not a British one. To refer to people of English decent as British, is an Americanism and British is not a real identity. People in places like London will refer to themselves as British to tourists whom know very little of England, there are even people out of London that may do this to tourists who do not understand England and you can presume if someone is saying, "Us British people have very good manners.", then that is not evidence of that person assuming British identity, they are speaking in the outsider's dialect to appeal to them. I have no problem with the use of the term British, when outsiders wish to refer to us from afar, but outside of this case it is not really a real identity, it does not qualify as a real identity as there is no historical tying of a people under this name outside of internationalist expansion and colonisation, and that is the part of our history that outsiders know, hence why outsiders think British is our identity despite the fact that there is no overarching British culture outside of colonisation and the military industrial complex as a state and beyond that it would be cultural ties between the 3 cultures under the umbrella of British: These are Scottish, Welsh and English. British is therefore not an identity but instead a triple of identities. Whilst there is not really such a thing as British culture, there is such a thing as English culture, and a culture is necessary for an identity to be valid. Unless you are calling Allan Holdsworth a colonialist, or something else to do with the British state?  You may have a British intelligence officer or a British diplomat or the British Prime Minister but outside of politics and the state there is no British identity. "British" is the international name that is given to English people by people who do not truly understand English identity and because the British state has a history of mega colonialism. Colonialism so mighty may I add, that it encompasses the largest and most glorious imperial expansion in all of history. However because of this history, outsiders seem to mistake English people as having a cultural identity of Britishness because of the geopolitical shenanigans of the British state, which is a political military industrial complex that was formed to nick oil from the Scots ;). Most people here do not align their identity with such a state at all, it is not thought about outside of abstract thought, but people here do identify as either English Scottish Irish or Welsh. It would be funny for all people in England to wear red-coats and to declare themselves to be British Colonists but it's ultimately an absurd idea and this is the implication that forms in presuming that all people in England represent a British identity when it is in fact an absurdity and a any ideas of the sorts are based on fabrications of reality. It is almost the idea that our external history is the internal history of this nation, and it simply comes across and ignorant.  Britain has nothing to do with a people or an identity, Britain is a power structure that undulates from Mordo... I mean London, and holds three different countries under its rule, there is a difference between the USA and England. Mainly in the philosophy and history of these nations.  Whilst an American may identify as an American and a Texan, Texas is a state, not a country, England is a country with a rich history. England is a country formed by people whom referred and refer to themselves as English and English is the default identity of the Englishman. The Englishman invented a good majority of the things you take granted in this world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_inventions_and_discoveries : such worldly contribution commands at the very least: respect
and sanely a level of adoration about the English people.
The identity of the Northern English people is a different identity to that which is commonly understood by outsiders.  It is very separate from the Southern parts of the country, and that is where most people visit, which presents an artificial and internationalist "British identity". Therefore: To understand England, you must acknowledge the North-South divide, both territorially and culturally.  
Allan most definitely should not be labelled as British.  He was, after-all: a Northern English musician, growing up, a very long way away from the Queen and all her mischief. He grew up in a place void of evidence of the British state outside of laws. The existence of policemen and televised networks, politicians and whatnot, and even if he did grow up near London, which he did not: I do not believe he ever pledged allegiance to the Crown and then partook in international espionage for the British state through MI6 or similar nonsense, although that would be hilarious. The evidence we have on him shows that he is in no way an official representative of the British state, I have not once observed him advocate or even talk about Britain, he has talked of his English town Bradford, which does not make him a representative of Britain but of England. We see that he lived in Bradford and London and there is no evidence of him living in Scotland, or Wales which would make him more representative of Britain, even then, he would still be English. 
Allan very clearly represents with humbleness and fondness, England and specifically the north.  Despite his lack of success in the North which is barren and poor, where musical success is impossible, he was still a Northern English musician.  His cultural origin should not be taken way from him... Despite his further lack of success in the South, he was still definitely: A Northern English Musician.  Finally, despite the fact that Allan Holdsworth's music has touched the hearts and changed the lives of many Americans, Europeans and other peoples and despite the fact Americans welcome him as their own, he is still:  A Northern English Musician.    
Allan Holdsworth's music reflects English industry and culture, especially the Hellishness, Chaos and Insanity of the North.  The North is a place of Delirium, Depravity, Sadness and Poverty but it is also Consonant and Resolute. It is a place of all manner of heavy drug use, listen to IOU you will hear the painful sadness of the north of England, if you listen to UK you will hear that same darkness. The satanic atmosphere of the industrial revolution looms and blends with the psychedelia of heavy drug use, in it's turbulent hills and dissonant streets, colours clash and beat in unexpected ways but there is a consonance for people who know the place that they may find in various vices. Dissonances mesmerises and baffle through winding routes, resolving but confusing, striking dissonances at first as an old bus flails through winding hill-roads, no straight direction in sight, but the bus always returns home, with cosy resolution as the lacerating rain pummels the windows harmonized with the burning bælfire.  Perhaps for Holdsworth this was a pub with a nice pint. What sort of resolution is the resolution of the pub and alcoholism?... Cozy, familiar and toxic, verging on delirious entrancement into a poisonous end, but an escape from the discord, just as the Victorians drank Opium in flowery teapots to resolve that endless tension of Victorian life, it is tense and furious, and doesn't stay still but it lands on it's feet and still resolves. As does the music of Mr Holdsworth.
Let us follow the truth of the importance of Holdsworth's Englishness, his Grandfather whom he called Father, was a musician in the war, and later in life: a factory worker. Allan was raised in relative poverty, in an English factory town: this is a similar story of certain other important English musicians who sprouted from factory towns, who's fathers worked in factories: Black Sabbath? this defines the heavier sound and influence upon Allan, and so Holdsworth is somewhat of the same tree that spawned metal, Metal did not spawn from Wales or Scotland and the innovative new music of Holdsworth did not either. It spawned from England, admittedly with great inspiration of North American artists to their honour and from European Artists such as Ravel and Debussy but let us make it clear, Allan is not a British phenomenon, but an English one, with good influences from North American and European music, but the true inspiration of a man is his home. He was not raised as a British imperialist, swearing allegiance to the Expansion of British interests, he was raised as a Northern English boy; living with little wealth, and raised by an English father who knew war and hardship. Allan would have been surrounded by people who identified themselves as English and knew only England as a home, this is a given, as it is the Northern English experience held by many, especially people of Allan's age.  Please pay an interest in the cultural origins of this man. If you are to write about Mr Holdsworth, then as a sidequest I dare you to call a Scotsman British, they are as British as a Englishmen are, but a Scotsman will probably turn you into haggis if you call him such a thing, that is the true origin of haggis. So why would you give Englishmen the same disrespect? especially someone as honourable as Allan Holdsworth, his origin should be a prime and respected thing.
Britain is a union of nations, not a collection of people, it is at most a conglomerate that encompasses three different types collections of people but it is not a collection of people, I should not have to keep reiterating this but I'm making sure it is understood because calling him British is not well thought out. It does not matter what an outsider thinks of our nation, I understand that the world has a strange little obsession with England, you are speaking our language after-all, but it is downright rude for outsiders to tell English people who we are.  We lost two generations of men in the name of England, men who referred to themselves as English and only English; men, who sacrificed themselves for England and for Europe.  Two generations of English men dead, two generations of English women, mourning with horrendous grief. Two generations of English mothers and fathers were forced to bury their young, to live their life in pain and loss:  and that is just in those two wars.  Do these people deserve to have their identity removed?  Do these people deserve to have outsiders define them out of existence as a people, instead calling them by the very industrial war machine that sent them to war, their sacrifice dishonoured and cheapened?  I think not.  If you are to be grateful of Allan then I ask you to be respectful and grateful of the country that sired him. That is how you may truly understand him as well.
The following video contains an Englishman named Allan Holdsworth, returning to his English home located in the North of England where he grew up. The video contains music written out of love of his English home and his English elders. Give him and his father the dignity of the correct label, please.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKL66SExIds 
Shall we strip Holdsworth of his tie to his home? Shall we cheapen his home to be just: Britain? or shall we sort it out?
Thanks.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.250.59.88 (talk) 18:26, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Please let it be known that there's never been an objection to have the opening sentence changed from British to English. That's what talk page discussion is for. Such a change cannot be made on a whim using just edit summaries—it's too profound to slip by like that. See MOS:TIES. However, no-one's going to read such a wall of text either. If you could collate your points more concisely, we'll discuss further. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:29, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

text: I got as far as the third sentence. Suggest hatting as WP:SOAPBOX / WP:OR. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:40, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holdsworth should be referred to as English and not British. 

message: "During his time with Soft Machine in the 1970s,[69] Holdsworth approached various Luthiers in England to make him a fretless guitar. It is thought that Holdsworth's incentive behind this approach was to achieve a greater level of legato, similar to other jazz fusion guitarists such as David Fiuczynski[70] and Guthrie Govan,[70] and in some albums and live performances by guitar virtuoso Steve Vai.[70]"
ion edit wikipedia so I'm not going to do anything about it but the way this is written is egregiously bad. Why would Holdsworth be endeavoring to sound like the guitar players in question when they would be like 10 years old at the time. Why is the same source cited three times in one sentence as if it isn't all just one (completely irrelevant) claim. also luthiers = not a proper noun  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:B400:B4:1800:212B:2D35:797C:3D70 (talk) 22:30, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: – chopped out the part about Fiuczynski and Govan, and changed "luthier" to lower case. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 15:38, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  bad sentences 

message: The last sentence in the ‘Amplifers’ section is incomplete. ‘and Fender Twins.’ is meaningless as it stands now. Thought to just remove the period from the sentence before this one, but was not certain of the original intent. THX1136 (talk) 23:37, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incomplete sentence 

message: To the editors of this page: I see many Holdsworth related articles reference the fingerprintsweb domain, where my old AH site was located. This domain will be deleted in November 2023. I believe everything is available in the Wayback Machine. But FYI, my Holdsworth site now has a dedicated domain, where all the old source material is available. I've chosen to use the MediaWiki format for the new site for technical reasons, but the site only has one editor, which is me. Do as you wish with references to this material. I will not edit any of the Holdsworth related articles on Wikipedia. The URL for the new site is www.allanholdsworth.info. Regards, KaldeFakta68 (talk) 09:54, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Many thanks for letting us know—Fingerprintsweb has been invaluable for Holdsworth information. I think Wayback Machine will be a better option to keep everything active on this side, because there is a policy here about not using other Wiki-based sites (or Wikipedia itself) as references. I will try to convert all the Fingerprintsweb links to archived ones when I have time, unless I can request a bot to do it. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 14:03, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notice: fingerprintsweb closure, new dedicated AH domain. 

message: As of Nov 12, the article lists a cause of death. The source is a website called "aminoapps.com". The website itself does not seem to link to a credible source, and I can't see that Aminoapps is a credible source in itself either. To the best of my knowledge, no official statement regarding cause of death as ever been posted by the estate. I also see that there has been a previous discussion on the issue. I would prefer it that the article skipped this topic altogether, but at least come up with a reliable source if you must include it. KaldeFakta68 (talk) 02:18, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I see the source has been updated. Guitar Player is a credible source in my view, so I'll leave it that. However, the statement still appears like hearsay. Take note that the reference listed is not online at present. An archived version was found at https://web.archive.org/web/20170706180702/http://www.guitarplayer.com/artists/1013/the-magnificent-architect-of-improvisation-a-tribute-to-allan-holdworth/63140 KaldeFakta68 (talk) 11:44, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreliable source regarding cause of death?