Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Martial arts/archive 4

message: There is an effort in the grappling article to suppress the opinion of the International Federation of Wrestling Styles.  I have two primary concerns (1, 2) and two secondary concerns (A, B); 
1) There is an effort to minimize or remove International Federation of Wrestling Styles opinion of what grappling is.  It is argued that International Federation of Wrestling Styles is not a reliable source.  I am at a loss of words.
2) While not being considered a reliable source, the wikipedia introduction for the article grappling appears to be plagiarized from International Federation of Wrestling Styles.  My attempts to rectify the possible plagiarism have been edited and removed.  
 
A) There is an effort to steer the orientation of the word 'grappling' to be used as noun, although no such derivative exists for the word grapple as do derivatives for words such as  wrestle (N-wrestling) and box (N-boxing).  I have reservations about how the word grappling is attempted to be used in this article.  A better scenario may be to treat the word grappling like the word striking; where as striking redirects to strike and grappling would redirect to grapple.”
B) The notation above is being taken a step further to challenge the usage and domain of the word 'wrestling'.  The word wrestling (noun) pre-dates the 12th century (Old English) and was defined as; a sport or contest in which two unarmed individuals struggle hand to hand with each attempting to subdue or unbalance the other.   The word 'grapple' (noun) was introduced around 1601 and the etymology indicates the word 'grapple' (noun) comes from "grappling hook".  I believe the usage of the word grappling\grapple (grapple being more correct) as a noun and omitting the word's etymology makes the relationship between the concepts ‘wrestling’ and ‘grappling’ a bit confusing.  
I am most interested in inserting and adding the acknowledgement of International Federation of Wrestling Styles work about grappling.  But in a broader sense I am looking for some additional opinions regarding the relationship of wrestling and grappling.
Penciljunk 17:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The opposing POV is that grappling is a skill set used in martial arts that has, over that last 10ish years competitive grappling as a sport under various broad rules sets has become popular. Within the last 10ish months FILA have released a set of rules, a wrestling derived form of grappling.FILA is not an independent secondary, source so should not be used as the main definition in an article if contested. --Nate 20:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You misinterpreted my objective.  My objective is to add an attributable source to the article of grappling.  My understanding of wikipedia is we are not responsible to paint a picture of what grappling is, it is our responsibility to consolidate attributable sources about grappling so readers can make their own conclusions about topics.  I may be wrong, but I feel you are trying to paint a picture and that picture does not include the opinion of FILA.  Penciljunk 12:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  FILA's definition is include in the article, that makes sense but it should not dictate the whole article. --Nate 13:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The opening paragraph is obviously too close to the FILA page (and the first picture in the article is a direct copy) and I have marked both to be redone. No attempt is being made to remove the FILA definition of grappling, it is included in the current version (they treat it as a synonym to the sport of submission wrestling); however, attempts to limit the article solely to the sport created in October 2006 by FILA are being prevented. The term has a wide and pre-existing usage in the combat sport and martial art community (see the Aikido and Jujutsu articles - the arts are described as Grappling, not wrestling) and I see no reason to allow the article to be limited in this manner. FlowWTG 01:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: In all fairness, FILA was established in 1912.  Penciljunk 11:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  In the last 95 years have they organised any sambo, judo, JJJ or BJJ competitions? --Nate 13:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Grappling POV

message: Are they proper names?  If so, then every word in their name should be capitalized (except maybe for particles such as "no"). If names of kata are proper names, should they be italicized like regular foreign words, or not? Japanese proper names (such as names of books) are italicized, while others (such as people or places) are not.  If names of kata are not proper names, then they should be italicized every time they appear.  Is this preferable?  My opinion is that kata are more like works of authorship, rather than common foreign terms, or the name of person or place, and therefore should be capitalized and italicized like the name of a book (obviously, in many ways kata serve the same purpose as books - the preservation of information for future transmission).  If there is agreement on this point I will add this to the conventions on the project page. Bradford44 16:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd agree with the book analogy same function and partly used like a text book. --Nate 16:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: How should names of forms (kata) be written?

message: Also, it will be necessary to distinguish what I would classically consider a kata, such as Taikyoku Shodan, from what some might think of as a "mere" technique, such as ōsoto-gari (the first written like a proper noun, the second like a common noun).  I believe the first is a kata and the second is a technique.  However, the manner in which some articles are written regarding the practice of kata (particularly judo and aikido) would lead a reader to believe that two judoka practicing ōsoto-gari are practicing kata.  Further, such a conclusion is not really inaccurate. Is making a distinction here between kata and technique going to create a problem down the road? Bradford44 16:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Supplemental question

message: Has anyone one here ever heard of a book called Shan Kowk Chi? I'm afraid I don't know the characters or the mandarin pinyin version of its title. I was told by eagle claw grandmaster Lilly Lau that it has information about Jow Tong. (Ghostexorcist 15:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  question about book 

message: I edited out the how-to guide in the article, and added some pictures from Commons. But this stub is still in serious need of some cross-style expansion. VanTucky 23:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Horse Stance]]

message: I thought some of you might want to check in on the discussion here:
Yoshukai International —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.161.41.226 (talk) 03:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yoshukai International Stub Nominated for Deletion 

message: I have marked this page as needing cleanup (and failing that, speedy deletion) for violating content policy. the majority of the pages content is a how-to guide. please help either rm all such content. thanks! VanTucky 04:18, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It might be a good idea to split the topic of blocking techniques into separate articles by nationality or category of martial arts.  Many blocks in Japanese and Chinese martial arts have similar English translations, but are very differently executed.  "Blocking techniques" is an extremely broad topic.  Should there be a paranthetical note in the title reflecting that this is only about martial arts blocking techniques, as opposed to those used in boxing, for example?  Perhaps separate articles for "Blocking techniques (Japanese martial arts)" and "Blocking techniques (Chinese martial arts)"? I must admit, I hate how long of a title that makes.  Maybe "Blocking techniques (uke-waza)"? But foreign words are to be avoided in titles if possible... Bradford44 15:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's broader than that.  Boxig is at least arguably a martial art, but "blocking techniques" could include stuff about blocking in football, politics, etc, too.  I definitely think it's too broad.  I think even something like "Blocking techniques (Japanese martial arts)" is probably too broad to justify an article.  Either that, or as VanTucky said below, it should be made very generic, and without going into detail about specific techniques, in which case it should probably be called "Blocking (martial arts)." —Erik Harris 18:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I think maybe its okay as is if we make it more like the strike and kick articles. These are both cross-style and not too expansive. VanTucky 17:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, that's what I meant. Blocking (martial arts) is the correct disambig. VanTucky 18:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Started work, will try and add some more generalised info --Nate 19:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Blocking techniques]] 

message: Please help me incorporate this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorin-ryu_Shido-kan in to the other main martial arts articles. Tkjazzer 23:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  incorporate [[Shorin-ryu_Shido-kan]] in to main martial arts articles 

message: I'm not an expert, but didn't the majority of karate in japan come from okinawa?  Therefore, shouldn't the okinawan styles get a seaparate family line?  Also, shouldn't the Japanese styels that evolved from Okinawa link or show their family tree back, via by masters or training location, back to the original styles in okinawa? (sorry for bad english, feel free to correct) Tkjazzer 23:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Karate is defined as an Okinawan martial art by it's page. But there were important Japanese teachers and promoters from whom a few of the styles originated. But generally, yes it is an Okinawan art. VanTucky 23:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Would anyone object to renaming the :Category:Karate category to "Okinawan Karate", creating a new "Japanese Karate" category, and moving the Japanese karate articles into this new category?  This would help in the separation of Okinawan from Japanese karate.  Then, a new "Karate" category would contain the categories of "Okinawan Karate" and "Japanese Karate", in addition to articles pertaining to both.  --Scott Alter 17:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: To simplify, I am going to have a bot move the Okinawan articles to :Category:Okinawan karate and the Japanese articles to :Category:Japanese karate.  --Scott Alter 02:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate Okinawa and Japanese martial arts family pages 

message: Is anyone aware of a template for an infobox for martial artists?  I have not found any, but would like to use one.  If there isn't one, I will base it off of Template:Infobox_Person and use fields name, residence, other_names, image, imagesize, caption, birth_name, birth_date, birth_place, death_date, death_place, death_cause, and website.  I'd add style, teacher, and notable students.  Any suggestions for additional fields?  --Scott Alter 18:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: here is the infobox scott made - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_martial_artist Tkjazzer 21:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox for martial artists 

message: Hello,
I was wondering if you would be willing to help me write either Seikichi Iha or Shorin-ryu Shido-kan. Tkjazzer 21:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure! I'll see what info I can find and try to expand them. :) --Malevious  Userpage •Talk Page• Contributions 19:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added some information to Seikichi Iha, mostly just a timeline of his promotions. I'll add someone once I find a few more sources. --Malevious  Userpage •Talk Page• Contributions 19:52, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could you help me write this article? 

message: Based on the need to create "martial art practitioner by nationality" categories (see ), I am proposing a new structure of categorization for martial arts practitioners categorizations.  The basic structure (using "American Kickboxers" as an example) would be:
*:Category:Martial arts
:*:Category:Martial arts practitioners
::*:Category:Martial arts practitioners by nationality
:::*:Category:American martial artists
::::*:Category:American kickboxers
::*:Category:Martial arts practitioners by type
:::*:Category:Kickboxers
::::*:Category:Kickboxers by nationality
:::::*:Category:American kickboxers
::*:Category:Martial arts practitioners by type by nationality
:::*:Category:Kickboxers by nationality
::::*:Category:American kickboxers
Suggestions and comments welcome.  --Scott Alter 23:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Martial arts categorization

message: Currently, there exist Template:Major styles of aikido and Template:Major Styles of Karate.  The Aikido template was recently removed from its articles (see Template talk:Major styles of aikido).  I think the "Major Styles of Karate" template is unnecessary (how do you define what major is) and is obsoleted by the bottom navigation bar for karate (Template:Karate schools).  I copied my existing discussion below, and would like more input.  --Scott Alter 23:52, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think its a nice addition, it lists the well known styles, and makes all the main karate style pages linked together nicely.  I think that either all the pages listed in the template should have it, or none, just to make things regular.  RogueNinjatalk 03:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Either way is fine with me, I just wanted them to be consistent.  Why not ask the wikiproject?  RogueNinjatalk 18:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I removed the corresponding aikido template from all the aikido articles, wrote on almost all the talk pages, and on the template talk. Nobody has written anything in response so far, so I guess consensus is that the template is not needed. // habj 07:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Templates for "major styles" of an art

message: I've had a problem with this section of the conventions since I first read it, and that problem revolves around the fluidity with which these words are used in real life as compared to the rigid and ultimately forced definitions that are given here. Because some martial arts use system to mean organization, or use style interchangeably with school, I don't think it's possible to come up with definitions here that will suit all martial arts, and I think this section of the conventions should be eliminated. Especially since the recent introduction of a definition for "branch", which has rendered the definitions internally inconsistent (because the explanation of "system" explains that a system is smaller than a single school, but the section goes on to explain that an a system may contain more than one organization.
I have been thinking for some time about how to fix this, and my conclusion is that it cannot be fixed. The terminology across all martial arts and nationalities uses the same words to mean different things, and there is no way to unify them.  Ultimately, I don't even know what we gain by using these terms consistently. If your talking about an organization, but calling it a school, I can't imagine how it could not be clear from the context that you are using school in an expansive sense, like a "school" of thought, as opposed to the local elementary school, which has a specific, singular identity and location.
To spare anyone from jumping back and forth to the project page, the current text of the section is as follows:
:"When talking about martial arts, many people use these terms interchangeably. However, in an encyclopedia it makes sense to use these words in a standard way as much as possible.
:*System: An organized method or complete syllabus for teaching a martial art. This probably includes training drills, forms, sparring techniques and rules, warm-up exercises and so on. Systems are taught by schools, and may be overseen or regulated by an organization. Most schools will teach a single system, and in such an instance, the words system and school may be interchangeable. Other schools will incorporate multiple systems, such as Shintō Musō-ryū, which began with a system for the short staff, but over the centuries assimilated several other schools and now additionally teaches systems for the sword, walking stick, chain and sickle, rope-tying, and truncheon. 
:*Branch: A subdivision of a system. Branches usually form after the death of the head of a system. High-ranking practitioners then go on separately to continue teaching the ways of their former instructor, but with their own style. An example of this is the system of Shorin-ryū, which has branches including Matsubayashi-ryū and Kobayashi-ryū (which is further branched into Shidō-kan and Shorinkan). 
:*Organization: An organization is just that, a group of people collaborating to define a martial art. For example, the World Taekwondo Federation is an organization that certifies teachers and runs tournaments. So is the All Japan Kendo Federation. An organization typically includes many different schools, all of which are usually within the same system (or branch). 
:*School: A school consists of at least a single group of people that are usually taught or overseen by a single teacher, such as Tenshin Shōden Katori Shintō-ryū. Occasionally, a school might consist of several groups in different places, but at some point in its growth would more properly be referred to as an organization. 
:*Style: A way of fighting, including preferred techniques, ways of doing techniques, preferred weapons, kinds of trickery, and many other things. Styles are largely personal, although some schools are very rigid and try to ensure that their students' style is identical to the teacher's. People with different bodies generally find that slightly different styles work best for them. For example, Suassuna and Acordeon both learned capoeira in Bimba's school and were taught the same system (capoeira regional) but the two men play capoeira in very different ways, that is, with very different styles. In some martial arts, such as the Neijia, style commonly refers to a system (see above) within a particular art (sometimes differentiated as a "family style" e.g. Yang style, Chen style etc). 
:In summary: a system may contain branches, which may contain organizations, containing groups of schools, that have students practicing their own styles."
Has anyone ever actually referred to this when writing an article? Bradford44 15:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to a limited extent. I'd suggest that they be rephrased as guide lines, you could also link any use of them to a sub giving the definition used here, more for ease of reading. If someone refers to there style as a system or system as a style it should not be changed but unless their is another reason. Using these is better than chaos, which imagine is why they were created initially, you can't standardise the world, but you can standardise a small bit called wikiprojects MA... --Nate 15:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Good set of definitions, the main problem with a lot of articles is that the terms aren't even used consistently within the article.  If we can get lots of editors using one set of defined terms then their use will spread. -- Medains 08:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  yeah, I agree. I would love to see these definitions followed more closely, however many people use 'style' to mean the school, branch, etc, making things more difficult. Who's up for revising all the MA articles to reflect these definitions, lol :p Shanada 12:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The words system, branch, organization, school, and style

message: Could we get some more side-kick pictures or video posted for this section of the kick article.  Sidekick may be one of the hardest basic kicks and it would be nice to have more pictures posted of it.  Also, how does this kick vary between different styles? 66.215.4.48 02:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Kick]] - Sidekick pictures please 

message: The article Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryū was just updated, such that the "koryu" style table has been removed, and replaced with the "infobox martial art" template.  I disagree with this use of it, but it warrants discussion here.  In my opinion, the template  is appropriate for "types" of martial arts, for example, all those named in the navigation bar template .  However, I believe that it results in a very inelegant presentation when used for a particular school of martial arts, especially a koryu school, where quite a large amount of information is trying to be presented in a very small space. I have no problem with there being a template for schools, or specifically for koryu schools or gendai budo schools, but the infobox martial art template is not suited for it. I'm reverting Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryū pending further discussion here. Bradford44 13:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am a firm believer in standardization across all related articles, and as such, I think there should be a template on this page.  However, I am unfamiliar with koryu schools, so I will relate my opinion using karate.  Firstly, I am unsure if this article is about 1 specific dojo or a system of martial arts (the article is unclear, as use of the word "school" is ambiguous).  If it is about an organization of several dojo that practice the same art under a common master, then it should have the template .  If this is about one prominent dojo (in one physical location), whose students train directly with the "headmaster", then it should have a new template created for martial art schools.  This new template should be like the "koryu" style table, containing the founder, dates of operation (year opened/closed), martial arts taught (with dates if appropriate), and current headmaster/instructor(s).  My only concern is that there are few, if any individual schools that are notable.  Generally, an individual school becomes notable only when the headmaster develops his specific style into a system (and these articles should use the template .  --Scott Alter 19:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I suggest you call it  - or something similar and not specific to koryu (traditional schools of Japanese martial arts).  Since this infobox can be generalized to other schools, it should not be specific.  If you want to mention "Traditional Japanese martial art" at the top, make that a field in the template (maybe "martial art type)".  --Scott Alter 20:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Re: Nav Template  - I find the artificial classification of art by "striking, grappling or weaponry" to be unhelpful, and the source of much disagreement between practitioners of the listed styles.  Perhaps a "Chinese, Korean, Western etc.." list would make a better nav template.  Maybe we should reach a consensus on navigation between martial arts.  -- Medains 14:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Jump down the page to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Martial Arts#Navbox revision for further discussion. Bradford44 14:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I thought about that for a while when I created the template, because while I like the sound of "descendent schools", I didn't like "ancestor schools" any more than you did. However, going strictly by meaning of the word, I could think of no clearer term.  Plus, ancestor is the proper antonym of descendent, giving the two categories a nice balance.  "Root schools" sounds worse to me, and the meaning is less clear. What other words carry the requisite meaning?  "Based on", "influenced by", "antecedent"?  I've got nothing. Any suggestions? Bradford44 14:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah I got nothing better right now I'm afraid. If I find something new I'll post it here for opinions. Fred26 07:20, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox martial art

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagamine%2C_Shoshin 
should I add the bio template? Tkjazzer 22:07, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely. Bradford44 02:12, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, i'll add the template but please help fill in the boxes. Tkjazzer 17:33, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagamine%2C_Shoshin 

message: We need to make sure we have some decent bios of these masters:
*http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/014/index.html
:*Shugoro Nakazato
:*Katsuya Miyahira
:*Meitoku Yagi
:*Kosei Wakugawa
:*Koshin Iha
:*Ryuko Tomoyose
:*Jyoen Nakazato
:*Seiki Itokazu
:*Shoshin Nagamine
I probably spelled these wrong and may have missed one so please double check. Tkjazzer 21:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Their status as 10th Dan holders of their style doesn't necessarily make them notable enough for their own pages, though they do deserve a mention on the appropriate Shorinji-Ryu or Shorin-ryu page - or if their national status can be confirmed via other sources (I can't confirm it via a brief search) on the Living National Treasure (Japan) page. -- Medains 14:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Maybe there should be a separate page for Living National Treasure (Okinawa).  From http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp, there are the lists of "Intangible Cultural Asset holders" for several categories (including "the field of Okinawan Karate and Martial Arts with Weaponry").  This page could at least have the list of the karate masters (and people from other fields) until articles could be written.  Alternatively, maybe list these people as a subheading by prefecture on Living National Treasure (Japan) - though this could get long with several fields for 47 prefectures.  --Scott Alter 16:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biographies on Okinawa Masters 

message: Ladies and gents. For those of you who have been following the Iaido article you may have noticed that in the past there were tons of "iaido in popular culture/fiction". I made a compromise and created a seperate article for all the pop-culture references. It was deleted however (which was perfectly fine by me), but it signaled to me that perhaps we should have tighter reins from now on in the MA articles regarding "MA in fiction". I'm guessing this is not an isolated trend for just the iaido article.
I suggest, that from now on, we remove any(most) mentioning of "insert-martialart-here in fiction/popular culture" from the MA articles unless it is a very special case. Instead, if there is a famous (or infamous) fictional character/group that just so happens to train/practice iaido, kendo, boxing, whatever, that information will remain on the character-article. I see no disadvantage in this as no information will be lost, it will just not clog up the respective MA articles. I formally suggest we make this an "WikiProject Martial Arts"-policy and start enforcing it. Not sure about you guys, but I'm sick of reading how many Anime characters do Iaido. As of right now the Japanese anime scene is very popular among western (and japanese) youths so the trend of adding more pop-cult references WILL continue unless checked. We should discuss this first and go over any pros and cons before saying yay or nay. 
If this has already been brought up before then my apologies. Fred26 15:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is in fact a pet peeve of mine, and I will gladly take as much credit as everyone's willing to give me if I am the one who started this trend.  It is already a wikipolicy to eliminate trivia sections such as these (see talk:nodachi#Trivia (aka Fiction), as well as the article Nodachi itself, for a good example of why the material should not be included, as well as how to properly acknowledge the article subject's appearance in fiction, respectively). I will amend the conventions on the project page to reflect this immediately. Bradford44 15:16, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well thats one solid "yes" if I've ever heard one. :-) Fred26 16:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol - I may have skimmed the part where you said we should discuss the pros and cons of this first... oops ;) Bradford44 17:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh, no worries. I doubt we will have much opposition from the MA-guys in any case. More likely the anime-guys will protest before anyone else. Fred26 07:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Martial Art in fiction/popular culture" - And External Links 

message: I'd like to add the  infobox to the Xingyiquan page, based on the guideline.  Unfortunately, we already have a "chinese" infobox to show the various transliterations of the word, and they don't look good together.  We need someone good at templates to work common elements of the "Chinese" and other language infoboxes into the martial arts one - thus enabling us to use a single infobox on the many chinese/japanese/korean etc.. martial arts pages. -- Medains 08:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The WP:MOS-ZH specifies the use of several variants of the "template:zh-...", to be used inline with the text.  Thus, if you follow the manual, and use it in the text, the "chinese" infobox becomes redundant, and can be removed and replaced with "infobox martial art". I gave this a try on the Xingyiquan page. Let me know what you think. Bradford44 15:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks ok to me.. lets go with that approach to remove language-infobox clutter.  The MA infobox is more important for those articles I think. -- Medains 11:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox