Talk:List of Philadelphia neighborhoods

message: I was just wondering, how do you pronounce "Passyunk"?
- 68.199.100.109 , 20:10, 7 August 2005
It's "PASS-shunk". Thunderbunny 06:33, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions 

message: I re-worked the list a bit, adding in some places, moving others and renaming some. The information that i used is based on these three links , , , and an ADC map of the city. I didn't include everything listed, and combined other places together, if you see anything out of wack feel free to make the changes as needed. --Boothy443 | comhrÚ 07:22, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No.  --CComMack (t•c) 04:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think it should be included. Someone added it a while back as a redlink (which could have invited entry creation), but it was soon reverted as "vandalism". (History page informs me that it was added on 2007-02-25.) In Philadelphia the identity of a neighborhood is not officially codified, but rather is a purely social construction, and the gayborhood definitely is just as "real" in that respect as any other neighborhood is. Hell, in that respect it's "more real" than, for example, Ivy Hill, which is often not even differentiated from the rest of Cedarbrook. (One thing about the list in Finkel 1995:156-170 is that its earliest known date for a written reference to a name is clearly often much later than when the name probably must have come about. That's a digression, but I guess that my point is that there is no holy written scripture that decides whether a Philadelphia neighborhood entity is "real" or "official" or quote-mark-whatever, but on the social-identity scale, they crop up and fade away over the course of decades, and the gayborhood is definitely currently a "real" neighborhood name.) — Lumbercutter 01:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rework 

message: I'd like to add the name "Gayborhood" under the name Washington Square West. It's the same place, and everyone in Philly calls it that. What do you think? Eagleapex 02:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No.  --CComMack (t•c) 04:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think it should be included. Someone added it a while back as a redlink (which could have invited entry creation), but it was soon reverted as "vandalism". (History page informs me that it was added on 2007-02-25.) In Philadelphia the identity of a neighborhood is not officially codified, but rather is a purely social construction, and the gayborhood definitely is just as "real" in that respect as any other neighborhood is. Hell, in that respect it's "more real" than, for example, Ivy Hill, which is often not even differentiated from the rest of Cedarbrook. (One thing about the list in Finkel 1995:156-170 is that its earliest known date for a written reference to a name is clearly often much later than when the name probably must have come about. That's a digression, but I guess that my point is that there is no holy written scripture that decides whether a Philadelphia neighborhood entity is "real" or "official" or quote-mark-whatever, but on the social-identity scale, they crop up and fade away over the course of decades, and the gayborhood is definitely currently a "real" neighborhood name.) — Lumbercutter 01:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gayborhood 

message: Maps showing the details of individual neighborhoods inside the larger sectors would be very helpful. -- Beland 22:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map request 

message: Are Fishtown and "Greater Kensington" in the Northeast or North Philly section?   Fishtown is listed in both.  Greater Kensington is listed in the northeast, but Olde K. and West K. are listed in North Philly.  Are they not also part of "Greater Kensington"?  My hunch is that they should all be moved to the North Philly section.  -- Austin Murphy (talk) 18:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  fishtown / kensington 

message: My feeling is that anything east of Front St. and south of Pennypack is in the lower northeast and everything north of Pennypack is the far northeast. The PCPC separates it from North Philly along Front/Frankford/Tacony Creek and lists Fishtown, Bridesburg and Port Richmond as an area distinct from North Philly and the Northeast. The way I look at it is that the area east of Front St./Kensington Ave. is on a different grid with a different numbering system and has streets with the "east" designation. I wouldn't call it North Philly.  68.81.71.129 (talk) 15:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: ====

message: This list that is cited everywhere is really the pits.  It seems to be highly inaccurate.  It gets really specific on dates and borders, but the ones I feel comfortable judging seem way off.  Like Grays Ferry having been invented in the 1970's when the actual ferry is from the revolution era.  I suggest being very careful with this list and not taking it as anything close to authoritative. -- Austin Murphy (talk) 20:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are completely right in that a lot of those dates strike one as being much later than the name in question seems likely to have been around. I have pondered that very issue myself. Each date is simply the earliest written mention that Finkel et al could find in the written sources that they consulted. That leaves at least two possibilities: (1) that their sample of source material was smaller than one could ideally hope for (and if so, I'm sure that they themselves wished that they could sample more sources); and (2) that there were many decades of a name being used orally before anyone needed to write it down in a document that would still survive today and that Finkel et al might have seen. One example off the top of my head is Ivy Hill. The date given at http://www.phila.gov/phils/Docs/otherinfo/pname1.htm is 1980. But Ivy Hill Cemetery has been there since 1867. Now, I would bet money on 3 things: (1) That the name of the cemetery was thought up by the developers for its pleasant, pastoral final-resting-place connotations; (2) that the neighborhood got its name from the cemetery, not vice versa (the area was rural when the cemetery was established); and (3) that local people have been calling the neighborhood "Ivy Hill" since many decades before 1980. I could be wrong, but those things seem likely. I don't think that makes Finkel et al grossly wrong about all their names and boundaries; it's just that you have to take their list for what it is, which is one team's compilation based on a certain sampling of source material. And you have to take the dates for what they are—only the earliest written attestation that anyone has documented so far. It's only one version of things, but I have to say that I'm glad they bothered to make the list, because it's more than we'd have otherwise. Anyway, here's a toast to digging up earlier attestations, and citing them here at Wikipedia's list! — ¾-10 03:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finkel / Library Co. list 

message: - Mdsummermsw (talk) 16:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  West Philly 

message: Since the article for the city is located at Philadelphia, and not Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, is there any reason as to why the neighborhood articles follow a Neighborhood, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania format instead of a Neighborhood, Philadelphia format? Eco84 | Talk 18:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is true that there are various defensible conventions that could be followed. However, it is best to keep the current consensus, for reasons that I will mention. The basic recurring question is: How much context should you specify in your naming conventions? The answer to that question depends on your audience. Remember that the English Wikipedia's audience is thoroughly global, and Wikipedia style tends (very rightly) to root out provincialistic thought limitations—even mild provincialism that seemed invisible or harmless in the pre-global era. At the extreme silly end, we can all agree that it is perfectly logical, but also unnecessary, to name the article on Philadelphia as "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA, North America, Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy". Even "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA" is generally agreed to be logical, but unnecessary. The debate heats up when you compare "Philadelphia" with "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania". There have been several thoroughly thought-out discussions of this topic at Talk:Philadelphia. As of this writing, they are at Talk:Philadelphia#Page Name, Talk:Philadelphia/Redirect talk page, and Talk:Philadelphia/Archive 3#Requested move. See also Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)/U.S. convention change (August 2006) and similar pages. Leaving that argument aside as perennially unsettlable (although, for the record, I vote for "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania", with "Philadelphia" redirecting to that, and other uses being listed at "Philadelphia (disambiguation)"), the question of naming the neighborhood articles is easier to have stronger consensus on. There are so many neighborhood articles about neighborhoods all over the USA that follow the convention "Neighborhood, City, State" that it would be a very bad idea to start changing some of them on the idea that "we can make an exception to the convention for some but not others." Hope this answer and the linked discussion pages show how much thought can go into answering such a short question. PhilaRegion1062 (talk) 00:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree.  It is just plain silly to reference the state.  "Our" Philadelphia is the original and most significant by far and needs no further qualification.  To pretend that this is "provincialistic" is intellectually dishonest.  As such, I agree that the ", Pennsylvania" ought to be dropped from the page names of the neighborhoods. --Austin Murphy (talk) 05:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Philadelphia, PA is not "the original Philadelphia" by any stretch of the imagination. In any event, I don't really see the name as being a structural necessity. "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania" is, IMO, good because there is more than one Philadelphia. "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United State of America" is not good because there is only one Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I don't particularly care, but I don't see a need to make the names more specific than "Cedarbrook" or "Northern Liberties" or whatever unless/until we have more than one article in competition for the name. Right now Northern Liberties redirects to Northern Liberties, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I'd be fine with the reverse being true. On the other hand, Chinatown is one of dozens of places using that name. Chinatown directs to a List of Chinatowns, with Chinatown, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania being one option. That said, Chinatown, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania is redundant. Chinatown, Philadelphia would do the job (right now it's a redirect). Long story short, I'd keep the names as short as possible without leading to ambiguous situations. Longer than needed names should redirect or be ignored. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:40, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming conventions

message: Hi, the border between South Philadelphia and Center City is Lombard Street.  It is an urban legend, easily perpetrated, that South Street is this border but it is not.  Consult historical records and you'll see that Lombard is the border.  If you want a source you can easily see yourself, see the Queen Village and Society Hill informational sign in person at Headhouse Square at the corner of 2nd and Lombard in Phila, across from the TD Bank.
Thanks
--Ajsphila (talk) 01:48, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have restored most of the South Street designations, all with citations to [[WP:RS|reliable sources]. It is uncontestable that "The Center City Planning Analysis Section extends from South Street...", as cited, because it is specifically cited to the Philadelphia City Planning Commission, authors of the Center City Planning Analysis. For most of the others, I have cited convenient sources (neighborhood associations and town watches), primarily because the CPC tends to show maps, often without street names. While parks and such on these maps make the boundry streets' identities clear, citing them would be a bit unconventional. If needed, I will pull text cites from the CPC. (Contrary to the CPC, two neighborhood associations designate their neighborhoods as beginning with Lombard. I have used Lombard in these cases.) - SummerPhD (talk) 14:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Border between South Phila and Center City 

message: I think that it would be useful to put the map of Philadelphia County municipalities prior to consolidation for historical reference. Seeing that there is no space to put this in the article, I'll leave a link to it here until expansion of this article warrants its inclusion: :File:PhilaCnty1854.png. --Apollo1758 (talk) 17:21, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: File:PhilaCnty1854.png

message: Right now, this article relies on the old "Planning Analysis Sections" used by the Philadelphia City Planning Commission during the Street administration to sort out where the various neighborhoods are located.
The current Planning Commission has discarded those in favor of new "Planning Districts." These were used for the new "Philadelphia2035" comprehensive city plan adopted in 2010 and the district plans being drawn up under it.
There are some major changes with the new districts. The Central planning district, for instance, encompasses not only Center City but also the adjacent North and South Philadelphia neighborhoods that have undergone significant redevelopment ("gentrification") since the 1990s; that district's boundaries now stretch from roughly Girard Avenue on the north to Washington Avenue on the south, and the Center City District also uses these boundaries when publishing data on "greater Center City". The River Wards have been broken out into their own section, and Northeast, North, Northwest, West, Southwest and South Philadelphia have all been divided into sections.
Given how recent these changes are, I realize some may disagree with my call here, but I think the new districts do provide some more clarity of definition than the old ones did, especially when it comes to the River Wards, which had been subsumed into "Kensington" in the Planning Analysis Sections. What say you all? Marketstel (talk) 14:42, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major revision needed: Planning Analysis Sections replaced by Planning Districts 

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