Talk:Field Commander

message: Section "Field Commander World Championships" was removed because it violates the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy as well as Wikipedia:No original research policy.  There is no verifiable "World Champion" of Field Commander.
The link to external forum site was removed because the owner of said web site insisted on removing the warning that was placed with the link to educate the public on the dangers of visiting said external forum.
The owner of the site has been known in the past for making hacking attempts on computers of users he does not like by using the IP address they used to register on his forums with.  In addition, he has publicly harrassed other users on the official Sony forum for Field Commander, frequently accusing other players of cheating, threatening their family, using extreme vulgarity toward them and posting personal information about them in public.  He has been banned several times by moderators there, forcing him to re-register there under a new name several times.  Some of the offending threads have since been removed, but many still remain.  Hence the creation of his own personal forum, where he is able to moderate and view IP addresses of visitors.  The public should be aware of these facts about the link if it is posted in this article.  Otherwise it should be omitted.
Blackbeard2k7 15:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link to non-official forum is dangerous 

message: Hungrywolf,The section "World Championship" is inappropriate material for Field Commander wiki page.  There is no verifiable "World Champion" of this game, nor is there any World Championship tournament sponsored by Sony Online Entertainment.  You may keep the link to "Unofficial League".  However, reference to any "World Championship" or direct link to a discussion forum is inappropriate for this page.Blackbeard2k7 04:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear BlackBeard2K7,You have attacked me personally with wild allegations which are libelous to the extreme.  Let me refresh your memory of what you wrote :The owner of the site has been known in the past for making hacking attempts on computers of users he does not like by using the IP address they used to register on his forums with. In addition, he has publicly harrassed other users on the official Sony forum for Field Commander, frequently accusing other players of cheating, threatening their family, using extreme vulgarity toward them and posting personal information about them in public.
If the above isn't libelous and personal then what is.Please refrain from Vandalizing the Field Commander page.Hungrywolf 14:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was not a personal attack and it certainly was not libelous and my edits are not vandalism.  I will agree to keep the warning removed.  However, there should be nothing to warn anyone about since the "world champion" section and discussion forums are inappropriate for the Wiki site in the first place.There is no officially supported World Championship from Sony Online Entertainment, and you have no proof of the legitimacy of such. The link to your private discussion forums does not belong here (refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:EL section "Links normally to be avoided" #10).Blackbeard2k7 04:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The disputed section was added on March 2, 2007  by an obvious sockpuppet of Hungrywolf.  Since that time, no reliable source has been provided.  How do we prevent the material from being continuously re-added to the article? Blackbeard2k7 13:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Be careful about making accusations of sockpuppetry. If you have good evidence, go to WP:SSP. If objectionable material is repeatedly added, remove it but be careful not to let it get into a revert war and be very wary of coming close to violating 3RR. Regularly going to the limit of 3RR without stepping over it is often considered almost as poor form as actually breaking that limit. If you find yourself getting into a revert war, you could take it to RFC for further consensus. Adrian M. H. 13:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The evidence is here.Blackbeard2k7 13:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I've already begun an RFC on the user .  However, it has not helped resolve the issue, and from what I understand the RFC will disappear after 48 hours.  Not only has the user re-added the section, but he has greatly lengthened it adding more useless information to the article.  He has also re-added a SPAM link to the end of the section, advertising his personal forums.  He was warned on his own talk page several times by an admin, but ignored them and even reverted THEIR edits.  Another annoyance is that the user keeps reverting the removal of a blank "See Also" section.  Blackbeard2k7 16:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The DR processes are not perfect, unfortunately. But talk of alternative DR routes is premature at this time; I recommend that you see how this dispute plays out and you might well find that you can easily see it through on your own through diligence and calm. Not to belittle the situation in any way, but it is a routine type of dispute that occurs many times every day in WP. When I get into a disagreement with someone (which thankfully does not happen very often) I deal with it as best as possible and always bear in mind that, whatever happens, there are more important things to worry about. It helps to stay positive! Adrian M. H. 17:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this even considered a dispute or disagreement? The offending editor isn't disputing or disagreeing with anything. He just ignores everyone and does what he wants. Blackbeard2k7 18:49, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that counts as a dispute, because you have a dispute with his additions and behaviour. Adrian M. H. 19:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: If he can produce an independent source (ie. something other than http://www.ttmac.co.uk/fieldcommander.htm) that verifies some or all of the disputed section, then whatever it verifies can of course remain in place or be rewritten if needed. The onus is on him to do so, though anyone else could do it if it serves to resolve the problem. I will remove the blank See Also section myself, because its existence is ridiculously pointless unless/until relevant internal links are included. Repeatedly reverting good edits can be classed as ownership. Adrian M. H. 19:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree totally with you. Hungrywolf 08:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This dispute is already over.  You are beating a dead horse.Blackbeard2k7 00:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute over World Champion Section and Link to Discussion Forum 

message: What is the purpose of listing a description of every possible unit, building and commanding officer in the game?  It seems like the editor basically retyped the game manual into the article verbatim.  I don't have any objections to having them listed, but without the descriptions.  The items themselves don't describe the game itself, and so the article seems more like a game manual than an informational resource.  Any other opinions on this? Blackbeard2k7 13:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If the manual has been copied verbatim then the plagiarized text must all be removed. CIreland 21:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: That's why I put the gameguide tag on the article. --Orange Mike 18:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sections from Game Manual 

message: I came here from the 3RR report on Hungrywolf.  Looking at the article, the section on COs is copied from http://www.gamerhelp.com/psp/FieldCommander/111680.shtml, so I've removed it.  It's complete trivia anyway.  The "World Championship" section isn't encyclopedic either, sourced only to forums etc.  The rest of the article still needs to be re-written to make it less of a game guide. ELIMINATORJR 22:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sections removed

message: User Blackbeard27K is now posting from IP 24.6.65.83 pretending to be another user. If the IP of BlackBeard27K is checked it will be the same.  Proves BlackBeard2K7 is here only to cause mischief, vandal and deface the Field Commander page.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hungrywolf (talk • contribs). 
:A baseless accusation, as any review of my contributions will show. But sure, put in a request for Checkuser if you want. 24.6.65.83 07:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. That is definitely not my IP address.  I have no reason to be editing from a separate IP.  I am not the one who has been blocked here.   However, if you check the log, it looks like there may be a sockpuppet floating around somewhere. Blackbeard2k7 12:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  False Accusations 

message: I've added some relevant text to reception section which can be verified by visiting the official field commander forums.  You will see there almost 20 pages worth of posts, the majority of which are complaints about the myriad of problems with multiplayer mode. Blackbeard2k7 16:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please avoid posting your Personal Opinion here BLACKBEARD2K7.  Also let me quote you,  As previously noted, discussion forums cannot be used as a reliable source of information.  You may note that players in the World Championship League have played thousands of games online without any significant problems.  But, if you persist in deliberately spreading false information, and repeatedly reverting the deletions, action will be taken against you.  Thank you. Hungrywolf 06:50, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please refer to this article for proof of my statements in the reception section: http://www.netjak.com/review.php/1229.  As you can see from the review by this gaming magazine, my statements were not false information as you suggested. Blackbeard2k7 18:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

text: For additional reference, see This Web Site, where a well-known game manufacturer BioWare lists Netjak on their page as a reputable game review source.  You can also plainly see from Rotten Tomatoes that NetJak is not one mans blog.  It is a large group of game reviewing authors.  You can see even Microsoft considers them reputable enough to respect their opinions on their own games. Blackbeard2k7 12:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also would like to point out, relevant to this dispute, that you yourself confirmed the problems with online play in this diff.  I wonder why you are so adament about having this information removed from the article, if you actually support it?  It can be easily seen that you are  by checking this diff . Blackbeard2k7 01:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is an Enclyclopedia and not a Game Review site.  If people want the read Game Reviews, there will be hundreds of sites to do that, putting (selective) extracts of Game reviews here has no meaning. If everyone starts putting extracts from Game Review sites there there will be nothing but that.  Also, Wikipedia is NOT a repository for links. There are tons of reputed Game Review sites which have said great things about this game.  We (the Field Commander League players Field Commander League & Championship) have played thousands of games without any significant problems.  Also, the review in question above is dated October 15, 2006 which is nearly a YEAR old !  Whatever problems there existed were corrected by SoE long ago.  FYI, At the time of the above review by unreputed reviewers, Field Commander won the PSP Strategy game of the Year at IGN  Please don't put outdated information here from a insignificant site written by unreputed reviewers.Hungrywolf 05:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia and not a Game Review site."  Then why are you adding more game reviews to the article? .  Why don't we just remove the entire reception and awards section then?Blackbeard2k7 00:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have not added any Game Review information.  The only information I have added is the scores received by this game on REPUTED game sites and an award received by this game from another REPUTED game site. Hungrywolf 05:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Posting scores violates WP:NPOV.  One person says the game is great, another person says the game stinks.  And so game scores should not be posted in the article at all.  Refer to this list of reviews.Blackbeard2k7 16:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Third Opinion first, let me say that this is probably a question for discussion at WikiProject Video games. I'm an active participant at WikiProject Albums, and it is helpful that they have clear guidelines on what kinds of reviews to include and how to incorporate scores. I did not see such a policy at the Video games project ((see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games/Article_guidelines#Critical_content), and it seems potentially beneficial. Because I did not find such a policy, my opinion here is based on my examination of featured class articles on video games from that project page. These, obviously, are the articles that have been reviewed and selected as the best by consensus of Wikipedia editors. By their precedence, it seems that review scores are considered appropriate for game articles. See, for example, Final_Fantasy_X#Critical_response, Final_Fantasy_VII#Critical_response, Half-Life_2#Critical_response, Perfect_Dark#Critical_reaction, and Shadow_of_the_Colossus#Critical_response. I think you raise valid points, Blackbeard2k7, about questions of which reviews are worth quoting and how to make sure that neutrality is maintained by a reasonable sampling of reputable scores. Again, I think this is probably something you should raise at WikiProject Video games. --Moonriddengirl 19:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion About Reception 

message: Hungrywolf, I see that you have added a link to the official Field Commander forum.  However, the link is redundant.  There is already a link to those forums from the official Field Commander page, which was already listed.Blackbeard2k7 00:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok that is fine - worth a try  Tezmac 12:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links Discussion 

message: I've re-arranged this talk page and reduced the amount of repetetious topics.Blackbeard2k7 00:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I support you 100% if you add value to this page.  I have not reverted the clutter that you have corrected.  I thank you if you help & support in making this Field Commander page GREAT ! Hungrywolf 06:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion Page Cleaned Up 

message: World Field Commander Championship League Link to the Field Commander World Championship League is an extremely relevant to the game Field Commander.  Most of the top players on the leaderboard are League players.  The League is run on the basis of valid rules & regulations.  Field Commander League.  Therefore this link is added on the Wiki FC page... Hungrywolf 11:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article. It only exists to promote itself. Consensus is against its inclusion, and it shouldn't be added unless you can prove that consensus has changed. --Onorem♠Dil 11:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I followed this link to a private forum. There was no way to register and in viewing some of the posts there (most of which are repeatedly from the same few people) it looks like this league is only available to players of one specific version of the game (excluding USA players).  Anyway I wouldn't exactly call this an encyclopedic link.  It's more of an advertisement.  Also after a few minutes I received a message telling me that my IP was banned.  Also isn't this link directly related to the discussion above about the disputed world championship section?  Seems to me that if everyone who owns the game cannot participate, then it cannot possibly be called a world championship.  Even after that, it still needs to be verified by a reliable source.  There also seems to be even more conflicting information here.  In a one-time post by a user above named Tezmac, he claims to be the "league manager" and implied that they changed the name of the league to remove "World" from the name of the league but Hungrywolf still advertises it as such; and the forum itself mentions "world champion" all over the place.  It should also be noted that Hungrywolf made a significant change to Tezmacs comment on the discussion page.Game Collector 12:11, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, Game Collector/BlackBeard2k7/AdamofEvil....you seem to be quite desperate to join our Forum  Field Commander World Champions League.   We have logs of your IP trying to login though various anonymous proxy servers to our Forum.  If you seem so desperate, we can take you back.  Write to me on my email and I may convince the Admin to unban you. Hungrywolf 12:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, stop falsely accusing me of all these different things and calling me names.  You are being uncivil and rude.  I do not know those other 2 people and I have never tried to join your forum.  There is no way to register on your forum anyway.  And why do you refer to the admin of the forum in the third person?  You have admitted that it is you in several places.  The concensus all over is that your forum and league site are inappropriate for Wiki.  Stop trying to claim ownership of this article.  It doesn't belong to you.Game Collector 12:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Just to clarify, I have no interest in joining your league.Game Collector 12:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why then your desperate attempts to login our Forum (through multiple anonymous proxy servers)?  I dont think you are aware that these "anonymous" proxy servers broadcast your real IP, network expert?Hungrywolf 13:00, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  Unfortunately non of the other players and moderators on the League Forum want you in.  To get you unbanned we need to have a consensus.  Do you want me to display the logs of your intrusion attempts ?  BTW, you scewed up your SQL database on your MULE Forum, Network Expert..... :-D Hungrywolf 12:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you do not even know who I am it would be quite difficult for you to prove anything by showing logs of IP addresses or making up stories about knowing anything about me.  I visited your forums to view the content there, not to join your league.  If you are really so convinced that I am someone else, then file a complaint about me, but please stop being uncivil and rude.  You are only going to get more aggravated and probably blocked from editing again, as you have been before, since you have already violated 3RR on this article.  Stop trying to avoid the topic, which is the fact that your link to private forums is not appropriate here.Game Collector 13:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  Just letting everyone know that the ONLY reason you are here (with your multiple Id's) is that you got kicked and banned from the SoE official Forum & League Championship Forum and the only way for you to retaliate was to come here and destroy the FC page Hungrywolf 13:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your personal opinion, which happens to be false. Without any evidence, it holds no credibility to the dispute whatsoever.Game Collector 13:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [http://fc.ueuo.com Link to Relevant FC World Championship League ]