Talk:K.d. lang/Archive 1

message: Recently (April 10th 2008) a radio interview was played on ABC Local Radio (Australia) where her views on Tibbet and the Plympic tourch were recoded on the P.M. program.  If the Australian national broadcaster finds this issue important enough, maybe it should be recorded on here?Mightymouseman (talk) 08:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Budist Activism

message: :Add any additional comments
:k.d. lang is her stage name.  Wikipedia already places articles under stage names instead of real names, such as John Wayne, Ringo Starr, countless others.  And it does so even if the stage name is not a proper Western full name, such as Cher, Madonna, etc.  And it also does so even for stage names that are not proper English, such as 50 Cent.  So I see nothing wrong with k.d. lang (forced to K.d. lang by technical limitations) as the article name.  Note also that DarrenBaker wants to change the casing of her name in the body of the article too.  This seems even more unnecessary: the Prince article is happy to refer to him as  during the time that glyph was his name, surely k.d. lang is mild compared to that!   Wasted Time R 16:28, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of how this is decided, you can't just copy-and-paste from one article to the other, losing all the history in the process.  That's why I've reverted the main article to here again.  Get an admin to approve and do the move, if it is really agreed upon as necessary.   Wasted Time R 15:11, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My bad, apologies everyone. I will get an admin to do it. DarrenBaker 15:31, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: The votes are 10-3 against the page move: page not moved. Eugene van der Pijll 18:41, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Result

message: "In addition to her musical talents, k.d. lang has championed lesbian causes"
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought she was a lesbian, pubically declared by her self?  If so, I believe the article should mention that she is a lesbian.  Hiding/censoring this aspect of her personality seems POV.  If she is a lesbian perhaps we can incorporate it into the article? --ShaunMacPherson 00:44, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's "POV",doesn't it cut both ways?(To those who think it glorious that she's a lesbian,she is denied credit,to those who think it shameful,she is spared scandalous exposure).Not actually taking a side on mentioning it,just observing...L.E/12.144.5.2 04:34, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lesbian 

message: In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 21:36, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gay Icon Project 

message: Remark recieved at the contactpoint of Wikipedia EN; --Walter 22:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concort 

message: Should her "meat stinks" ad controversy be mentioned?  Between that and her lesbianism, it prompted the residents of Consort to publicly denounce her and basically disowned her from anything to do with their community.  It was a fairly significant campaign in Alberta at the time —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.148.42.175 (talk • contribs) 10:23, January 17, 2006.
:It's already mentioned, but I think that the campaign as a whole really should have an article of its own; it was a huge deal and I remember reading about it, and I'm not even from Canada or the US. --Qirex 09:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meat stinks controversy 

message: THe images on the page were recently removed and have now been re-added to the article. they were remobved as it was said they constituted an infringment to the fair use policy of wikipedia. I would like input as to what people think on the issue and if the images do constitue a fair use copywright infringment the suiitable replacement need finding before the removal of the current images.--134.225.235.13 18:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please look at the licence tags for album cover, and for magazine cover on the image description pages of the two images I removed.  The tags clearly state what constitute fair use.  Album covers are to be used to provide critical commentary for the album - "solely to illustrate the audio recording in question".  Here it was used to illustrate the person - not fair use.  Same with the magazine cover - "to illustrate the publication of the issue of the magazine in question" and "It is not acceptable to use images with this tag in the article of the person or persons depicted on the cover, unless used directly in connection with the publication of this image. Such usages will be removed."  There was no direct connection except for a one line reference under the heading of trivia that did not discuss the magazine or the image in any way.  This is not up for debate as this has been Wikipedia policy for a long time.  There are so many incorrectly used images that it takes time to identify them all, so you'll probably notice there are a lot of articles which use album covers or magazine (or book) covers in this way.   But they're wrong and eventually they'll get fixed too.   It's not our policy to keep offending images in articles until we find a replacement, as this offers no incentive for anyone to actually find a free image, so please do not revert. Rossrs 21:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: Regarding the nature of lang's role in "Eye of the Beholder": all you have to do is watch the freaking movie and it's self-evident, so what kind of source can one put there?  If she wears a blue dress in the movie and I write she wore a blue dress do I have to source it??? What are the standards for self-evidence in the Wiki?thanks--Tednor 21:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think something visual like a "blue dress" is self-evident while something such as emotiveness of performances is not. I would simply find a review which mentions lang's performance and cite that. This is what I've read in some reviews of the film, so I'm not positive you're going to find what you're looking for:
** "Crooner k.d. lang, cast as McGregor's contact at his unnamed government agency, borders on obnoxious while trying to exude affectionate moxie." 
** "Folksinger k.d. lang plays Eye's colleague, a role in which she does nothing but appear on a laptop screen or talk into one. Mainly, her role consists of cursing about how Eye wants her to run a computer check that could get her fired. Then she runs it." 
**"singer/songwriter k.d. Lang is even in the movie, cast as a fellow investigator who helps the "Eye" with all of his troubles, although the screenplay gives her nothing to do but to sit behind a computer screen." 
- Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 20:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to source something like this? 

message: I added the cleanup tag because this page needs to be organized into paragraphs as opposed to being a list of things that happened to her or that she did. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 04:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup template. 

message: I understand that she spells her name in all lower-case as "artistic expression", but shouldn't the article make mention of it, or have at least ONE sentence describing her thinking or the reasons behind her choosing to be billed this way?  --Schmendrick 20:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why the strange capitalization? 

message: excuse me?  this is what is wrong with wikipedia.  the statement she sometimes utilieses her androgenous aperance is sombodys way of trying to say she looks like a man in this encyclopedia without getting deleted.  It is 100% inapropriate for this article and 100% inapropriate for wikipedia.  keep your personal opinions to yourself if you havent got the guts to say them properly.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.173.1.194 (talk) 22:45, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  sometimes uses her androgenous aperance? 

message: Please do not try to change the title of this page with a "cut-and-paste" move. Page moves must be carried out properly per WP:MOVE, in order to preserve the contributor history of the page per our GFDL. If you want to rename the page, you'll have to build consensus for the change, and that happens here, on this talk page. Maybe somewhere at WP:MOS, too. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, I'm the one who tried the cut-and-paste move. I'm not trying to sabotage this page; I truly believe it is incorrect as is and that keeping it uppercase is not a stylistic choice. It is simply incorrect. But I will not change the page if I am violating rules and need a consensus as noted above. Can one of the moderators please advise how to build this consensus so we can properly change the title? Can we have a revote? What are the rules of this consensus-building process, and how many "yays" do I need in my favor before we can change? Thanks. Steverino (talk) 23:47, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't worry, I didn't figure you were trying to sabotage anything. Consensus here (see Wikipedia:Consensus) is a bit more complicated than a certain number of "yeas" versus "nays". Voting like that works when there's a group of fixed size participating, but here it would be trivial to round up 100 people to get accounts and "vote". The only thing we would really learn from such a vote is who has more friends.  Instead, we build consensus through discussion. In the discussion, we try to take into account policies and guidelines that were established through previous consensus agreements, because those earlier decisions, while they can change at any time, still carry weight until it becomes clear that they've changed.  In the case of this particular article, the conversation has happened at least once in the past - see the top of this page, where it appears that the conversation was treated a bit too much like a vote. The idea is to not do it that way, but to let arguments, rather than people, make the decision. That means that a good argument can win against greater numbers.  Here's the short direct answer: Start a talk page section here, raising the question, and see what people think. When you seem to have a bit of support, go to Wikipedia:Requested moves and file a request, following the instructions there.  If you run into much static, which you will, you might want to hold the discussion in a more general light, which would happen at the talk page(s) of WP:MOSTM or WP:MOSCL or both. (Those are style guidelines, the shortcuts (like "MOSTM") are just for convenient linking.) I hope that helps. -GTBacchus(talk) 00:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Thanks, that does help. You people are so quick with the responses! I'm impressed. I'll try to start some kind of dialogue here and possibly on the WP style pages and see what happens. Steverino (talk) 00:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cut-and-paste 

message: Please tell me this:
:Also in 1983, she presented a performance art piece, a seven-hour re-enactment of the transplantation of an artificial heart for Barney Clark, a retired American dentist.
is someone's idea of a joke.  It has a ref, but not an Internet ref (it's a book, maybe a fictitious one).  So unless someone has the book, it can't be checked.  What do others say?  A creative piece of vandalism?  Should we just remove it? — Frecklefσσt | Talk 16:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I found another source that says the same thing.  Aleta Sing 17:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, you can read the relevant page of the book in the Google books preview.  So, no, apparently this is not a joke or vandalism. Aleta Sing 17:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Surely a joke

message: WP:MOSCAPS is quite clear that this article can and should be renamed: "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources." In addition to the singer's own web site (a primary source) we do have reliable third party references proving that k.d. lang is correct. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:MOSCAPS]]

message: The result of the debate to move was to make the title of the article k.d. lang, not K.d. lang, which is what has actually happened. I think it needs to be moved again. Jenafalt (talk) 09:35, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Page names cannot start with a lowercase letter.  Hence the use of  to pretend that it does.  81.111.114.131 (talk) 01:36, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  k.d. lang, not K. d. lang 

message: For all interested parties, there is a discussion going on right now at  the Manual of Style about whether or not to capitalize people's names against their wishes (like k.d. lang, for example). -- Irn (talk) 16:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  "...about whether or not to capitalize people's names against their wishes...."  How very Wiki-ish.  Is this an inbred "culture" or what? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.113.155 (talk) 02:18, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalization discussion at the manual of style 

message: (Sorry, seems my account has gone.)
In the article, I see k.d. lang described as vegetarian, while at the same time, she's listed in the list of vegans. Should this be changed here? --78.53.218.135 (talk) 22:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find evidence of one or the other make the change, but they aren't mutually exclusive and "vegetarian" is the safe option.78.86.61.94 (talk) 03:51, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "vegetarian" vs. "vegan"? 

message: Surely there must be a better photo than that. It looks like Paul Whitehouse choking on a phlegm-ball, or a lemon. Melonbonce (talk) 10:49, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I found one with the right license at flickr and uploaded it.  Let's hope this one meets your standards. --CutOffTies (talk) 13:29, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor photo 

message: WP:MOSCL states "For proper names and trademarks that are given in mixed or non-capitalization by their owners (such as k.d. lang, adidas and others), follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules." That seems to directly address whether to capitalize K.D.Lang's name throughout the article. Standard text formatting and capitalization rules are to capitalize proper names. It even goes on to say that "[t]he mixed or non-capitalized formatting should be mentioned in the article lead, or illustrated with a graphical logo." I fail to see any ambiguity here, and I can't understand why anyone would continue to revert standard capitalization back to all lowercase. Andyparkerson (talk) 00:57, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Cause that portion of the MOS is stupid. Especially in cases like this where lang is NOT known anywhere under the capitalized version of K D Lang and when we make arbitrary exceptions for things like iPhone. -- The Red Pen of Doom 02:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you don't like the MOS, change it. That is where this argument needs to occur. Andyparkerson (talk) 17:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) already says "Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." The most common name of k.d. lang is k.d. lang, not K.D. Lang. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.12.52  (talk)  13:08, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:COMMONNAME does not address matters of capitalization with a single word. But it does link to WP:MOSTM, which provides detailed guidelines for handling nonstandard capitalization (and by and large suggests to dismiss it). Our guidelines for music related articles (WP:MUSTARD) also link to that page, in the context of band and artist names. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 14:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:MOSTM is about trademarks and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion. K.d. lang is a person's name (not even a "stage name" as you keep pretending), not a trademark. —Angr 14:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: exactly how do you define "stage name" so that it does not include lang's lower case spacing adjusted monicer? -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:44, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A stage name is a type of pseudonym, a name that is significantly distinct from one's official, legal name, and taken for use as a performer. Using one's initials, or using a full name and an initial, or using only one given name when one has several, or using a nickname that is derived from one's given name, doesn't qualify as a pseudonym. Using any one of the last names one has legally borne in the course of one's life doesn't qualify as a pseudonym either. Whoopi Goldberg is a stage name for Caryn Elaine Johnson. George Burns is a stage name for Nathan Birnbaum. But A. A. Milne, C. S. Lewis, J. R. R. Tolkien, E. B. White, E. E. Cummings, and E. M. Forster are not pseudonyms for Alan Alexander Milne, Clive Staples Lewis, John Ronald Reuel Tolkien, Elwyn Brooks White, Edward Estlin Cummings, and Edgar Morgan Forster. And k.d. lang, with any capitalization and any spacing between the initials, is not a pseudonym for Kathryn Dawn Lang. It's just the version of her name that she uses professionally. —Angr 21:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalization and the MOS 

message: As a lot of other related edits have also been done, hold-off reverting until the concise points raised in the style guide are addressed, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Caps_.22Items_that_require_initial_lower_case.22_.28partially.29_scrap_or_edit.3F --Jimthing (talk) 07:30, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  New style guide discussion. 

message: The article asserts that kd lang is homosexual, which is an unfounded rumor.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.223.111.148 (talk) 00:49, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It hasn't been a rumor for over two decades.  See the following link: . -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓  00:57, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Libelous material 

message: There is an RFC that may be of interest to the editors of this article Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Trademarks#RFC_to_resolve_conflict_between_MOS:TM.2C_MOS:CT_WP:TITLETM_WP:RS_WP:COMMONNAME Gaijin42 (talk) 17:16, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC 

message: Search for K D Lang at VIAF  shows hits 3 corporate identities (along with personals and works), briefly The Reclines, Siss Boom Bang, and Sing It Loud. Not sure I'll get back to it. --P64 (talk) 20:52, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corporate identities 

message: Larry Wanagas who immediately dropped everything to become her personal manager - this expression seems to be a bit unfortunate and suggestive (just what would he have dropped?). Could a native speaker please insert a less colloquial phrase? Thank you. -- Zerolevel (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Zerolevel, good catch, did a copyedit. The Interior (Talk) 18:15, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dropping everything?