Talk:Francesco Melzi

message: Here I found a citation you can use for "Francesco's father, Gerolamo Melzi, was an engineer for Francesco II Sforza's military and a captain in the militia in Milan under Louis XII." 
And have added after the sentence.
Bruno Nardini, Leonardo. Portrait of a master,Giunti Editore 1999, pp.140HillmanHan (talk) 21:23, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: 2017

message: I do not hope to get in to an argument about pederasty. In the wikipedia entry of Leonardo, I certainly find no evidence to substantiate the claim made in this article. While it is certainly possible, I would defer in this regard until there is evidence. If not this tagging has the appearance of suggesting that pederasty has an accepted lineage or legitimacy in the Western world. 
Bottom line, if the editor in question can not have such incendiary points substantiated by anything other than rumor then I do not believe it meets the criteria for being included in this article. I would like to add a further criteria for its inclusion here: if the prior comments about pederasty were true, then have them pass the muster of acceptance in the Da Vinci entry, which is likely to have far more editors. If it does not meet criteria to be there, then I do not believe it should be quoted or alluded to here.
CARAVAGGISTI 01:06, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, if you can make such a statement clear the criteria for inclusion in the Leonardo article, then I would concur. It is not a universally accepted fact. It is not mentioned in many biographies of Leonardo. Again, just because you want it to be true, does not make it true. CARAVAGGISTI 18:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionally, my recommendation is that you seek administrator competence in this regard. CARAVAGGISTI 18:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 2007

message: There are a number of problems to your approach, which I would like to address in the order you presented your argument. 
#You open by claiming you will not be drawn into an "argument about pederasty" and them immediately launch into one. What is it to us here whether or not pederasty has "an accepted lineage or legitimacy in the Western world?" We are writing an article about an individual known for his association with Da Vinci. Discussions of the validity of various categories should be relegated to those talk pages, where they can best be addressed.
#In posts from both 2007 and 2008 you take issue with the numerous academic and literary sources that have discussed Da Vinci's homosexuality and his relations with his companions. We are not here to "disprove" published sources. At the same time I cannot resist the urge to ask you whether you really believe that men's relations with their "dear valets" were commonly described as "ardentissime" or "sviscerate?" That aside, the presentation of their relationship should be in keeping with the tone taken by those sources which are recent enough to have integrated the methods and ethics of queer studies, not the older ones from more censorious times.
#I have no objection to removing the term "life-long relationship." In retrospect I can see that it is misleading.
#I would be grateful if you could refrain from misrepresenting my work here. I do not "promote" pederasty, I document it. I do not claim that "there is nothing sexual" to pederasty, though I have documented the fact that it is not necessarily sexual -- a very different matter. Furthermore, there is nothing intrinsically illegal (any more) about such relationships. If Da Vinci and Melzi at fifteen were again a couple today in Italy, they could be lovers freely and openly under Italian law.
#Finally, in one last tilt at the windmills of published scholarship, you set out your proofs of the many uses of "beloved" in Renaissance Italy, implying that one cannot draw conclusions of erotic love from the mere use of the word. Granted, the word then, as today in modern English, had more than one use, the erotic being merely one of them. Are you claiming, however, that the historians who have concluded that Da Vinci was essentially homosexual were too stupid and ignorant to be aware of that simple fact? Let me list here a few of the authors you presume to disagree with: Queers in History by Keith Stern, p.228 (who asserts that "it is well established that [Leonardo] was gay;" Leonardo Da Vinci, Selected Scholarship by Claire Farago, p.215; A history of celibacy: Experiments Through the Ages by Elizabeth Abbott, p.341 (who mentions Giulio Mancini's aside about Da Vinci who "made such carefully observed anatomical studies of the handsome young Signor Francesco Melzi;" Haiduc (talk) 14:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Countering the (many) above contentions

message: Says who?
His greatest achievement wasn't his art - he's totally unknown for painting - but his guardianship of Leonardo's notebooks, which he seems to have been preparing for publication according to Leonardo's wishes. PiCo (talk) 10:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Melzi, "very talented artist"? 

message: When Melzi's father placed him in Leonardo's care, Leonardo already had one boy, Salai. If Melzi's father had suspected that Leonardo was "interferring" with this other kid, he would have thought twice. Or wouldn't he? 
Secondly, I'm sick of that quotation about Leonardo's love for his puplis being lifted out of context. Was Count Melzi really informing Leonardo's brothers (upon the death of their older sibling) that Leonardo had the hots for the kids in his care? Or are Melzi's expressions intended to convey the fact that Leonardo's pupils were loved, encouraged and cared for? 
The interpretations "gut-wrenching" and "incandescent" sound mighty powerful in English. We needs to keep in mind that in every language expressions such as these are used figuratively. If an English boy has "guts" (as in bravery, rather than love) then it might mean a great deal, or it might simply mean that he "owned up" to the cricket ball through the window. In this case, Leonardo's love might best be described as "deep-seated" rather than as in the English expression "gut-wrenching" which applies to a painful emotion such as overwhelming grief. 
Amandajm (talk) 04:10, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The nature of the relationship

message: ..were those paintings sold?  Wikipedia really can't find the provenance?  Someone must know.LéVeillé 03:24, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  To whom... 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: the infamous red chalk portrait
Why is it infamous?94.191.133.160 (talk) 23:23, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: @94.191.133.160 Agreed, why is it infamous? 2001:8003:952D:4600:DC5C:E017:6C90:98CB (talk) 17:55, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infamous 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion