Talk:Knot

message: Hi, can someone enlighten me as to the origin of the phrase "an intentional complication in cordage", as a definition of what a knot is? Was this written by a Wikipedia editor, or this page especially? Or was it taken from some pre-existing work about knots? The phrase is all over the internet, in a way that suggests everyone has just copied the Wikipedia page. But I'd love to be able to name the originator of this phrase/attribute it correctly. Thanks.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.208.254.208 (talk) 16:23, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I am in the process of writing a new section tentatively entitled "Knot Properties" which will encompass how knots behave after they're tied -- it will include a discussion of security, capsizing, jamming, releasing, etc. -- Dfred 18:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Requests

message: I noticed no reference whatsoever to the use of the word "knot" to mean a large wad of bills, generally kept in most urban street entrepeneur's front pant pocket. The wad of bills from a side view resembles layered fibers of an actual rope, while creating an impenetrable dense mass. 
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Are you spelunking?, having foolishly but voluntarily buried yourself pre-maturely under millions of tons of rock?
Whilst I doubt this has a place in a serious encyclopedia, it kept me amused...
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I felt that the basic terms like "bight" were better included in the main entry, so I killed my brand new bight article and stuck it and a few other definitions (wiki not dictionary) in a bulleted list.  
I started to do the same to the categories of knots, but backed off when I looked at loop.  I still think these terms would be better defined within the main entry.  Hearing no objections, I'll probably continue to make these changes, taking care not to make a mess.  
Also, how about some sub-categories in that looooong list of knot names? Ortolan88 June 02
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Just figured out how 'Talk' works.  I am pleased to have the above observations either anonymous or from you Ortolan88.  
I am very new to this endeavor and I am still learning the Wiki editing, such as how to embed my handle Satsun, thanks Ortolan88.
like "bight" ... I agree and hope the picture assists.  We can keep a brief inline definition and add a link to a more replete link later.
The second observation is right on the mark.  I would like to see the categories turned to links and therein will be sub-lists of knots that fall into those categories.  Many knots, of course, will appear in multiple lists.
I feel that a comphrensive master list of knots needs to exist for our users.  I am hoping to provide a standard look to the pictures.  Later adding articles/pictures showing intermediate steps to tying each knot.
A useful list of reference materials is need: Ashley's Book of Knots...
A short list of the most practical knots all should know: overhand, figure eight, bowline, constrictor...
Its knot to late to add more good ideas.
Satsun, 18 JUNE 2002
 
Good luck to the person/persons who have taken it upon themselves to complete this part of the pedia. richhill
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Hey, Satsun, I like moving the full list of knots out of the article, but how about a short list of knots for the main article, "the eight great knots everyone should know how to tie" or something like that, overhand, square knot (and its buddy the shoe-tying bow), sheet bend, two half-hitches, bowline, figure-of-eight (I knew you knew what you were doing when you didn't call it "figure-eight"), etc.  Ortolan88
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I have one problem with that. The 'should' in the title seems a bit too prescriptive for an encyclopedia, in my opinion. But that's nothing that can't be solved with a bit of rewording. -- Ellmist
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Eight great knots.  I don't know that anyone would really get upset by a "should", but ...Ortolan88
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hi, Ortolan88/Ellmist,<BR>
Please go ahead and add your list. A comment and link to the fellow that has the speed record for tying the the "Scout" knots would also be interesting.<BR>
Satsun, Sunday, July 14, 2002
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Hi Satsun. I modified your template a little bit to start with a sentence explaining that the entry is a type of knot. I had to read halfway down the Sheepshank page before I realized it was talking about a knot. -- Nate
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This article really needs to be split, with a knot disambiguation at the top. Egil 09:04 Feb 3, 2003 (UTC)
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You might try to move the top 7 or so knot properties into a table, and leave the main section for history, descriptions, tying tips, proper usage, etc.  I do not like the header format - the headers are too large for such small bits of information.  Also, the grey and black illustrations are very clear and easy to read.  The unprofessional pictures of tightened knots i.e Trucker's_hitch  can be somewhat unclear (my apologies to the photographer - those who can't do, whine & complain), although the properly lit shots i.e Figure-of-eight knot can be both attractive and informative.
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bowline links to slip knot as part of directions on how to tie it "lighting fast". Unfortunately, this redirects to knot, which doesn't seem to have directions on how to tie a slip knot. *sigh* --Johnleemk 10:37, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: General

message: Knot name is a type of knot.
Canonical Name:.<BR>
Variant Name(s): None.<BR>
[completed picture]<BR>
Category: bend.binding.coil.decorative.hitch.lashing.loop on the end.loop on the bight.noose.plaits.stopper.seizing,sennit.whipping.<BR>
Origin: Ancient.Modern.Old.Unknown.<BR>
Related knots: to other knots<BR>
Releasing: Jamming. Non-jamming.<BR>
Efficiency: Unknown%.60%.<BR>
Caveat: None.spills.slips.secure if wet.not secure if wet.Low efficiency.Difficult to tie.<BR>
Uses: Forming other knots, Boating, Fishing, Climbing, Caving, Securing objects, Securing to objects.<BR>
Comments: <BR>
Structure: ex. Figure-of-eight knot<BR>
Tying:  article/pictures<BR>
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Proposal: Template
Other wikipedia pages use some type of template for information which is laid-out in the same way across many articles, leaving the page itself freeform for writing about that specific item.
Wiki guidelines on information boxes has a few examples
Howabout something like that for knots?  Ojw 19:11, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Would anyone be intereted in reviving Wikipedia:WikiProject Knots? Samw 03:40, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Knots are really hurting for an infobox.  I'm mildly interested in reviving the project, but I don't see it as anything more than a standards committee. --Smack (talk) 19:48, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

text: For lack of comment, I think I'm going to start converting knot articles to the infobox format. --Smack (talk) 04:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edits have been fine.  And in case you didn't notice, the post about an infobox effort was several months ago, so I wouldn't hold your breath at this point. ;^) wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 13:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I rewrote about a score of knot articles to the infobox format, but then I realized that the infobox has serious problems, so I stopped.  However, I think that I can address Dfred's confusion about the "efficiency": I believe that it measures how much the knot degrades the rope's strength.  Thus, if you use a 100-lb-test line to tie a knot with an efficiency of 60%, you should expect the line to break at 60 lb. --Smack (talk) 03:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, the massive scale of the needed work is beginning to dawn on me...  I noticed one other person recently joined Wikipedia:WikiProject Knots and I've been trying to get my feet wet before contacting those folks who've expressed an interest in the past.  Regarding knot efficiency, see the Knot#Strength section I recently added for the basis of my comments.  A bulk citation for that section at the top of this talk page, but I wasn't sure what style to start using on this page since there really weren't too many cites in the body of the article. --Dfred 18:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Formatting for subtopics

message: Most pictures I've seen of this knot show the final half-hitch tossed in reverse of the way the photo (on the page linked to through this intro. article) demonstrates, in this case being thrown "over and under" instead of the "under and over" shown. Either way, it tightens pretty well, but I wonder which version is correct, and which holds better. Sfahey 21:48, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The instructions on how to tie a taut-line hitch conform to what you say.  Furthermore, the two half-hitches article says that the two half hitches should face in opposite directions, but I don't know whether or not that actually matters for the taut-line hitch. --Smack (talk) 03:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I got a headache trying to follow those loops around. Sfahey 02:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Supposedly, the correct two half-hitches resembles a clove hitch rather than a cow hitch. --Smack (talk) 20:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I believe the main issue here is one of nomenclature, which is a big problem in general for knotting...  Two similar friction hitches are often tied around the standing part of a rope resulting functionally in a "taut-line hitch", they are: the Rolling Hitch (Ashley #1734) and the Magnus Hitch (#1736).  It is possible that BSA or some other organization considers the Rolling Hitch version "correct", but they are both equivalently secure if worked up properly.  Personally I'm in agreement with Ashley that the Magnus Hitch (which is pictured) lays better and has somewhat less propensity to roll.  I will also put this comment in Talk:Taut-line_hitch and attempt to clarify in that article that both forms should probably be considered valid. --Dfred 21:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

text: This discussion is now occurring in Talk:Taut-line_hitch and further comments should probably go there.--Dfred 15:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made a stab at trying to address the various tying methods at Taut-line hitch#Variations. --Dfred 05:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Backwards taut-line hitch?

message: Very bad idea to merge Fishing knots into Knots. Once the Fishing knots article is done it will be too large for merging, believe me. CyberAnth 10:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we get an approximate date (range) on when it will be at least stub class? − Twas Now 03:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fishing knots

message: Regarding this sentence from the intro: 
Knots have been the subject of interest both for their ancient origins, common use, and the mathematical implications of knot theory.
The knots in knot theory are different from the knots spoken of in this article. The mathematical "knots" refer to an abstract object that looks like a string joined at both ends. But the thing is that this article has no mention, and probably shouldn't have any mention, of such knots. (such knots are rarely used in practical knot tying). And the study of knot theory I'm pretty sure was not motivated by practical knot tying, and has nothing to do with it. Why mathematicians are interested in it I don't know, I think its something abstract, and was only called knot theory because of a very superficial resemblance. So I don't think knot theory is really at all related to this article, and the mention doesn't really belong. What does everyon think?Brentt 19:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why should an article called "Knot" only discuss issues related to practical knot tying?  I agree that mathematical knot theory should only occupy a small portion of this article, but a mathematical knot is a type of knot, after all.  I think that the brief mention in the lead and the tiny paragraph toward the end are fine as is.  VectorPosse 19:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: mathematical knots, sufficiently "nice" ones at least, are in fact knots pretty much in the sense of this article. so to say "it was only called knot theory because of a very superficial resemblance" is not quite right. however i do agree with Brentt that the remarks on knot theory in the current version of the article looks very much out of place. to go from rope splicing to a, however brief, discussion of the Alexander polynomial makes for an abrupt and awkward transition. maybe one can replace the remarks with a see also link to the knot theory article. Mct mht 05:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Well done. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 03:12, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Knot Theory

message: The following is a list of the most usable knots. This list of knots are a simplification of all other existing survival knots and can be helpful in survival situations and in low-tech construction (eg in the developing world). The list is assembled by comparing the knots used in survival books as "The SAS Survival Handbook: How to Survive in the Wild, in Any Climate, on Land or at Sea" by John Lofty Wiseman SAS Survival Handbook, "The Survival Handbook" by Peter Darman Survival Handbook and "Go Sailing" by Steve Sleight GoSail book, aswell as a number of other survival books. Careful selection has been made by including knots for all purposes (stopper knots for permanent fixing, hitches for dragging loads, easy removable knots, ...), and by examening whether the knots are not too difficult to lay and whether they can be used in several situations. As the list is heavily simplified, it could help people remember them when it really counts (critical moments).
* the Double overhand knot
* the Reef knot
* the Double sheet bend
* the Double half hitch
* the Bowline
* the Clove hitch]
* the Diagonal lashing
* the Round lashing
Please include this list into the article.
thanks;
KVDP (talk) 14:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added three of them. The reef knot is dangerous and shouldn't be encouraged. kwami (talk) 17:39, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I've added some more. I do think we should have a practical section on basic everyday knots. However, I put in the harness knot—would the Alpine butterfly knot be better? kwami (talk) 22:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I don't think it's accurate to say that "the reef knot is dangerous and shouldn't be encouraged." I use it to tie my shoes -- is that dangerous? The ability to intentionally capsize and release it while it's under load is a useful feature, in situations where you need that feature.--75.83.64.6 (talk) 05:08, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Most useable knots 

message: I learned a great knot at a military show in Ouagadougou, but have since forgotten it and wonder if anyone has any ideas as to what it might have been. 
I used it to hang my mosquito net when sleeping outdoors biking cross-country. I could throw a loop over an out-of-reach branch, tie the knot, clinch it up, and in the morning simply pull on the free end of the now out-of-reach knot and the rope would fall to the ground. Very very handy. kwami (talk) 18:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  looking for a knot ... 

message: The page says "Midshipman's Hitch (also known as a Tautline Hitch) Used when the length of the line needs to be adjusted" - However, Admirilaty Manual of Seamnship Vol I, HMSO, London, 1964 p. 160 states that it is a hitch for lashing a rope to a hook.  Specific text says An alternative to the Blackwall Hitch, preferred if the rope is greasy. Made by first forming a Blackwell hitch and then taking the underneath part and placing over the bill of the hook.  Diagram is included in the description.  Certainly does not appear to be used for adjusting the lenght of rope!    Farawayman (talk) 09:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Midshipman's Hitch

message: Some knots covered in German wiki that we don't seem to have. Could simply translate and borrow the images:
::de:Zeisingstek
::de:Anbindeknoten
::de:Bergrettungsknoten
::de:Wurfknoten
::de:Fallreepsknoten
::de:Jansik-Knoten
::de:Kopfschlag
::de:Marlschlag
::de:Seilspanner
::de:Rosenknoten
::de:Kettenstek
::de:Bootsmannsmaatknoten
::de:Doppelte Rettungsschlinge
::de:Gardaschlinge
::de:Führerknoten
::de:Höhlenknoten
::de:Lassoknoten
::de:Neunerknoten
::de:Paketknoten
::de:Warenhausschlinge
::de:Zweistrang-Bändselknoten
::de:Strickleiterknoten (Eng. mis-ID'd)
They also have a lot of good photos, though some remain copyrighted. I've added some that were on Commons, but don't have time to move the rest over. kwami (talk) 22:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  German wiki 

message: I think the 'Categories' of knots on this page is too cumbersome and can be greatly simplified as below.  You'll recognize text copied from the article page and the few entries I've added by the lack of descriptive text.
===Basic Knots===
* Stopper knots Stopper - A knot tied to hold a line through a hole. List of stopper knots.
* Binding knots Binding - A knot that restricts object(s) by making multiple winds. List of binding knots.
* Joining Knots or "Bends" Bend - A knot uniting two lines (for knots joining two ends of the same line, see binding knots or loops). List of bends.
* Attaching Knots or "Hitches" Hitch - A knot tied to a post, cable, ring, or spar. List of hitch knots.
* Loop Knots Loop - A knot used to create a closed circle in a line. List of loop knots.
* Running Knots  or Nooses(?) Slip (or Running Knots) - A knot tied with a hitch around one of its parts. In contrast, a loop is closed with a bend. While a slip knot can be closed, a loop remains the same size. List of slip knots.
===Decorative & Fancy Knots===
* Decorative knot   A complex knot exhibiting repeating patterns often constructed around and enhancing an object. List of decorative knots.
* Trick   A knot that is used as part of a magic trick, a joke, or a puzzle. List of trick knots.
* Plait (or Braid)  A number of lines interwoven in a simple regular pattern. List of plait knots.
* Sennit  A number of lines interwoven in a complex pattern. See also Chain sinnet.
* Lanyard knots
* Button knots
* Globe knots
* Turk's heads
* Mats
* Chains
* Plaits and Braids
Thanks to Des Pawson and Geoffrey Budsworth and various other authors (notably NOT Ashley) for the basic knots and decorative knots breakdown.
===Ropework===
These strike me more in the ropework line than particularly knot-centric.
* Coil   Knots used to tie up lines for storage. List of coil knots. Another handy coil is here.
* Lashing A knot used to hold (usually) poles together. List of lashing knots.
* Seizing A knot used to hold two lines or two parts of the same line together. List of seizing knots.
* Splice  A knot formed by interweaving strands of rope rather than whole lines. More time-consuming but usually stronger than simple knots. List of splices.
* Whipping A binding knot used to prevent another line from fraying. 
ForemastJack (talk) 23:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categorization of Knots 

message: These strike me more in the ropework line than particularly knot-centric.
* Coil   Knots used to tie up lines for storage. List of coil knots. Another handy coil is here.
* Lashing A knot used to hold (usually) poles together. List of lashing knots.
* Seizing A knot used to hold two lines or two parts of the same line together. List of seizing knots.
* Splice  A knot formed by interweaving strands of rope rather than whole lines. More time-consuming but usually stronger than simple knots. List of splices.
* Whipping A binding knot used to prevent another line from fraying. 
ForemastJack (talk) 23:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Ropework

message: Mention something about knots in nature. Jidanni (talk) 00:32, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Knots in nature 

message: I've deleted the last link:
A rope knot can be a thing of beauty too
Just because it's a picture of a knot, it doesn't mean it belongs in the article. Much less when it leads to a store where the photographer is selling it. It looks like an attempt to generate views/sales.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.68.90.97 (talk) 09:35, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *I have only just come across this page. I have a mild intrest in the field and would request some time to work the Article over before any Merge is conducted. Exit2DOS2000•T•C• 09:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  from merged article 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I just added a bit about that and now see it also at Overhand_knot#In_nature. Should this be in this article, and can that section be expanded? Are primates or birds known to make knots? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:39, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use by hagfish 

message: The three terms are described in DOI: 10.1016/j.jamcollsurg.2007.05.016 https://kundoc.com/pdf-how-capsizing-flipping-and-flyping-of-traditional-knots-can-result-in-new-endosc.html — Omegatron (talk) 21:04, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capsize, flip, flype 

message: History of knotting is very short, lightly referenced, and could be better put in context here. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:57, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggest merge October 2020

message: The entire content of this article is about intentional knots, but the dictionary definition of a knot applies to intentional, man-made knots, as well as unintentional knots, like a knot in your hair, natural knots, such as a knot in your muscles, or a knot in a tree, or symbolic uses, such as a knotty problem, or knots in your stomach.
If there's no other feedback, I will adjust the wording of the opening line to indicate that this is one usage of the word knot, so that it's not confused as the only meaning of the word knot.--Ryan (talk) 21:50, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The hatnote includes a link to Knot (disambiguation) which mentions muscle knots and tree knots. Might be useful to draft your proposed adjustment here in this talk page setion, and see what feedback shows up. Just plain Bill (talk) 22:45, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Intentional or accidental