Talk:Billy Tipton/Archive 1

message: I removed the sentence "None of his adopted sons, ex-wives, associates or band members have admitted to previously knowing the gender assigned to him at birth." Firstly, the word "admitted" is inappropriate -- readers could think Wikipedia is saying that some of them probably did know but just haven't told anyone they knew. Secondly, the whole sentence is redundant because one paragraph earlier the article states "Only his parents, brother, and cousins knew he had been born female.". --Mathew5000 11:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  admitted to previously knowing 

message: I'm planning, as I rewrite, to alter the 'he' pronouns to 'she' in referring to Tipton.  While I agree that biographies of transsexual people should use the gender pronoun appropriate to the gender the person presents him or herself as, Tipton's biographer makes a strong argument that Tipton was not transgendered, but identified herself as female while making a choice to live as male because it was advantageous to her career.  
If you disagree, I'm willing to discuss it- if Tipton really was transgendered and considered herself male, then the pronouns should be changed, but I'm not convinced this was the case. -FisherQueen (Talk) 20:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm trying out the approach of switching gender within the article depending on whether Tipton, at that time, was presenting herself as male or female.  I'm not sure how well it's going to work. -FisherQueen (Talk) 19:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Tipton was a female, always knew was a female and was not transgendered or a lesbian, only a male for public persona. All pronouns should be female. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eedo Bee (talk • contribs) 08:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I think it's reasonable to call her a lesbian at least, since she was married to five women and, as far as I've been able to find in my research, never had a romantic relationship with a man.  I've found different opinions about whether or not s/he was transgendered in my research... I have the Middlebrook biography on hold at the library, and I'm hoping to get some better insight into the question when I've had a chance to read it.  At any rate, it seems to me to be more than a public persona, since she continued it into her private life and even long after she retired from music- in fact, she seems to have died at least in part because she didn't want anyone to know she was female.   I don't think that the situation is quite as obvious as your comment indicates.  -FisherQueen (Talk) 11:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: But how would we know if Tipton was actually transgender sexually? Wouldn't it be just as much unverifiable as the idea that Tipton was heterosexual? Besides the fact that Tipton's ex-wives claim they had intercourse, there is no verifiable evidence that Tipton preffered females or thought of herself as male; the only thing that is verifiable is that Tipton transformed into a man and kept the charade going for an entire lifetime. Although this might be seen as transphobia or POV, couldn't associating Tipton with the LGBT field of study be revisionism to fit current perceptions of sexuality and POV of those wishing to add as many figures as possible to LGBT studies, which is woefully underrepresented in mainstream studies? Much in the same manner that Lewis Carroll was incorrectly thought to be a pedophile because he had relationships with young girls and took nude photos of young girls, Billy Tipton is presumed to be transgender/lesbian because she took on the role of a man and was reported to have sexual intercourse. Mind you, this is just an attempt to regulate Wikipedia's organization and not introduce speculation or POV into the article; I'm just proposing that, since Tipton's true identity is not known, a neutral position be made in the article, showing neither a lesbian/transgender image nor a heterosexual image as "fact". As such, parts of the article referring to Tipton's personal life with females should use he as the article, but in quotations, and the rest of the article should use Tipton and she, in my humble opinion. Thank you, and I apologize for the hasty editing I made without consulting the page consensus, and I appreciate the group's opinions. :) 65.12.233.213 (talk) 04:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Regardless of which gender of pronoun we go with, the constant repetition of 'Tipton' in the first couple of sections is unwieldy. Jozis. (talk) 12:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Thanks for pointing that out.  Your pronoun suggestion is indeed how I had written that paragraph; an IP editor came through today and changed the shes to hes even in Tipton's earliest days, and I missed a section when reverting the changes.  I hope the current version is more readable. -FisherQueen (Talk) 02:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

text: But in this particular case, it's very difficult to say whether or not Billy Tipton saw himself this way.  If it could be established that he did, then the pronouns should be changed.  But reading the available sources, it seems that Billy saw himself as female, and presented himself as female, until his twenties.  It's difficult to say, from what we know about him, whether he presented himself as male because he was transgendered, because he was a lesbian who found it useful, or simply for the sake of furthering his career, and he never spoke or wrote on the matter, so it's difficult to establish what he preferred.  If you're aware of better sources than the Middlebrook biography, which doesn't clearly establish Tipton as a transgendered man, then I'd love to read them, both to improve the article and because I really find Tipton fascinating.  -FisherQueen (Talk) 06:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

text: To User 24.167.191.111, please read Wikipedia:No legal threats.  --Mathew5000 06:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record, I didn't interpret that as a legal threat; the anon wasn't threatening to sue Wikipedia over the pronouns in this article, but was emphasizing how important correct pronoun use is to her.  At least, I think that's what she intended. -FisherQueen (Talk) 06:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Your rationale here is debatable, but more importantly, it's just a personal interpretation. Unless you can back up your claim that his personal identity did not reflect how he presented himself publicly, then it is POV to use it in the article. --Icarus (Hi!) 23:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Gender pronouns

message: This section is very confusing, as the article does not make clear anything related to gender.
A notably odd sentence is "After the divorce, he rarely saw her father, G.W. Tipton."
I would suggest that, if Tipton was raised as a girl, the pronouns for "Early life" be female. It would especially make sense considering the next section reads,
— Emiellaiendiay 00:27, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing that out.  Your pronoun suggestion is indeed how I had written that paragraph; an IP editor came through today and changed the shes to hes even in Tipton's earliest days, and I missed a section when reverting the changes.  I hope the current version is more readable. -FisherQueen (Talk) 02:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

text: But in this particular case, it's very difficult to say whether or not Billy Tipton saw himself this way.  If it could be established that he did, then the pronouns should be changed.  But reading the available sources, it seems that Billy saw himself as female, and presented himself as female, until his twenties.  It's difficult to say, from what we know about him, whether he presented himself as male because he was transgendered, because he was a lesbian who found it useful, or simply for the sake of furthering his career, and he never spoke or wrote on the matter, so it's difficult to establish what he preferred.  If you're aware of better sources than the Middlebrook biography, which doesn't clearly establish Tipton as a transgendered man, then I'd love to read them, both to improve the article and because I really find Tipton fascinating.  -FisherQueen (Talk) 06:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

text: To User 24.167.191.111, please read Wikipedia:No legal threats.  --Mathew5000 06:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record, I didn't interpret that as a legal threat; the anon wasn't threatening to sue Wikipedia over the pronouns in this article, but was emphasizing how important correct pronoun use is to her.  At least, I think that's what she intended. -FisherQueen (Talk) 06:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Your rationale here is debatable, but more importantly, it's just a personal interpretation. Unless you can back up your claim that his personal identity did not reflect how he presented himself publicly, then it is POV to use it in the article. --Icarus (Hi!) 23:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Early life

message: This article certainly seems to fall within the area of interest of WikiProject LGBT studies.  Can you explain why you removed the tag indicating such? -FisherQueen (Talk) 12:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Straight? I don't see how someone whose primary romantic relationships were all with women could be interepreted as straight. Have you read resources I haven't discovered yet?  Can you point me toward them? Please, I'm asking you to leave the project tag in place until you've produced some evidence to support your position. -FisherQueen (Talk) 11:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: There's nothing in there indicating that she didn't have a sexual relationship with her wives.  It just says that her wives believed her to be male but with damaged genitals.  That's a strong argument that her wives were straight, but not that Tipton herself was. -FisherQueen (Talk) 12:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Interestingly, I have found at least one source specifically indicating that she did have a sexual relationship with at least some of the women with whom she was involved. I'm picking up the biography at the library tonight, which I'm hoping to rely on for more in-depth information. -FisherQueen (Talk) 12:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  IIRC correctly, some of the wives remembered being penetrated, so he probably used accessories for lovemaking - Skysmith 13:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: You seem to assume a lot about her psychology and her motivation. I really don't think we can get far in that regard. The only thing you can take at face value is a person's action and the actions of Billy Tipton is consistent with Transgender issues. A common misconception is that transgender people are to be typecasted as gay or desiring a sex change. That is not always the case. A person can be a straight woman living as man to further her career and still be transgendered. It is an element of gender identity--even the concept that your gender is a career tool. Agne 12:29, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Erm, how can we be sure that Tipton participated in these activities with "his" wives because "he" was transgender? Is it not possible that, caught up in her career and the behavior of her peers, she pretended to make love because she was trapped in her own deception? It seems arbitrary to assign any sexuality to Tipton because nobody really knows how she herself felt. It's like saying that any tale that involves females that cross dress for extended periods of time involves lesbianism or transsexuality. Even calling her a "transvestite" would be inappropriate reaching on Wikipedia's part; the article itself points out that Jazz, the music form Tipton loved, was a male-dominated industry. If she was so driven in pursuit of success, it isn't hard to believe that she would cast aside her "personal preferences" in exchange for living a life she would not be able to otherwise.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.12.233.213 (talk) 03:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: On the tag removal

message: Wikipedia Manual of Style recommends, in cases where the appropriate pronoun is in question, using the pronoun which the subject used to identify him or herself.  In this case, Billy Tipton identified as male both in his professional and personal life, and that's why the male pronoun is the appropriate one in this article. -FisherQueen (Talk) 22:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Per Wendy Carlos I would also suggest this. Also, I think changing the pronoun in the middle of the article is quite confusing.--83.145.240.253 10:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: This has been discussed extensively here on the talk page. Per the Wikipedia Manual of Style and the prior consensus, I have reverted your edit. --Icarus (Hi!) 03:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronoun use

message: The intro to this article currently states only: "Billy Lee Tipton (born Dorothy Lucille Tipton, December 29 1914 - January 21, 1989) was an American jazz pianist and saxophonist." However, the most distinctive and notable fact about Tipton -- the fact that Tipton was biologically female but lived as a male -- should probably be included in the intro as well. I would suggest that the second sentence of the article should be something like "Tipton became the subject of public interest posthumously when it was revealed that Tipton, who had lived for decades with a male identity, was biologically female." The exact phrasing can be worked out somehow. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 12:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Would it be too simplistic to suggest using s/he throughout the article. This avoids attributing motivation to Tipton and in my mind conveys at least some of the ambiguity around gender identity as well as being clear about who it refers to in any paragraph. Tim O'Leary (talk) 01:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I really don't like s/he, just because it makes for such awkward reading, and because the style guide does suggest using the pronoun he used for himself- in this case, 'he.'  I've learned a lot about pronouns since writing this article :) -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 02:58, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead paragraph 

message: I went ahead and removed the absurd repetition of "Tipton".  I chose to use female pronouns for the "Early life" section and male pronouns for the rest of the article.  Please, if you can't reach consensus about this, can't we just follow whatever standard there is for transgender people?  All this "she wasn't really transgender" nonsense is kind of childish.  Even her sexual partners thought she was male, for god's sake.  What do you want her to do, impregnate someone?  Please, we need pronouns.  Don't throw out the baby with the bath water and dispose of pronouns altogether.  (Gender-neutral pronouns, anyone?) —Daniel Brockman (talk) 23:03, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Wikipedia sitewide consensus embodied in MOS:GENDERID does not allow us to discuss Billy Tripton as  in article space. Any pronouns used must reflect his most recent expressed gender identity, as male. If anyone is going to reply to a comment more than 10 years after it is made, they should at least be aware of the relevant community decisions. Newimpartial (talk) 16:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment 1

message: In the Death and aftermath section, someone has cited the following sentence as containing a weasel word/phrase, but I just don't see it, and it really appears like the editor is asking who the individuals are that are mentioned in the article:
::Two wills were left by Tipton; one handwritten and not notarized which left everything to William Jr. and the second, notarized, leaving everything to Jon Clark[who?]
I saw no discussion or talk here about that.  Curious where the weasel word is or if the previous editor just didn't bother to read the cited reference.  KyNephi (talk) 16:30, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weasel Word? 

message: Near the end of the Family Life section it states "...and resumed his old relationship with Maryann."  There is no previous mention of a "Maryann" in the article.  One of the references cites "Vollers, Maryanne (1998-05-18)", which is a different spelling.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.224.181 (talk) 07:27, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is Maryann? 

message: According to the television channel "Biography", which recently aired a program on the Secret Life of Billy Tipton, starring the three living sons of Billy Tipton, the estate was divided equally between Billy's three sons after Kitty's death, who died without a Will.  The show is entitled "The Will" on Biography Channel.
According to the three sons of Billy Tipton, the estate was shared equally after Billy's wife Kitty died.  According to the Wikipedia article only one son received her money and estate and the other two son's received $1.00 each.  Acording to the three sons of Billy and Kitty this is not true.  The Judge ruled that even though the three sons were not legally adopted by Kitty and Billy that they were still considered "family" and should share in the estate.  After all attorney fees were taken out of the estate, the three sons each reportedily received $35,000.00 of the $300,000.00 estate of Kitty, Billy's wife although "Biography" reports they were never legally married because the marriage certificate was falsified.
Please refer to the television channel ~ Biography's "The Will".
Sans454 (talk) 13:15, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes this would be a classic case of "equitable adoption".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.27.116.215 (talk) 21:26, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Billy and Kitty Tipton Estate 

message: I really don't want to get this started again, but Tipton self-identified as male. Per the arguments stated above, Tipton should be treated similarly to other female-to-male transsexuals. Admittedly, most articles on F-to-M transsexuals avoid pronouns, but policy states that they should be referred to as male. ONR (talk) 15:12, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Where is he not? __ E L A Q U E A T E 15:22, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Tipton was not transsexual.  In the language of her own time, she was transvestite, or in more modern parlance, transgendered.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 01:33, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronouns yet again 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: EddieHugh, regarding this, this and this, it's not uncommon to see a whole paragraph supported by one source at the end of the paragraph. To use the same citation after each sentence in a whole paragraph can be seen as WP:Citation overkill. I do source a paragraph in that way at times, though, because I know that some editors will assume that only one part of the paragraph is sourced. Flyer22 Reborn (talk)  02:07, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It's personal preference in part (WP:UNDERKILL): when I see a whole paragraph with one source at its end, I question if each sentence is from that source. With this article, the answer was sometimes "no", and the sourcing was generally poor, so adding (having checked) the source or a cn tag for each sentence seemed prudent. And that's the non-personal preference part: if the sourcing is bad, the reader is being misled about what has been sourced. Even though this isn't a BLP, some of the content is a sensitive topic for many readers, so they need to be shown clearly where each bit of information comes from (and where it's been added unsourced). EddieHugh (talk) 12:27, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: EddieHugh, it's personal preference, but citation overkill (except for the paragraph instance I brought up) often is not tolerated, including in WP:GAs and WP:FAs. Editors are significantly more willing to tolerate citing each sentence in a paragraph with the same source than they are twelve citations for one sentence, for example. WP:UNDERKILL, a recent creation, is not as supported by the community as WP:OVERKILL is, as has been made clear at the talk pages of these two essays. In any case, like I stated above, I understand why you added the WP:REFNAME the way that you did for this article. I just wanted to note to you that it's not uncommon to see a whole paragraph supported by one source at the end of the paragraph. A paragraph can look under-sourced, but not be under-sourced. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:56, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I know that if I see one citation at the end of a para in a FA, then it's likely to be fine. If I see it in a typical article, such as this one, then I have doubts. These doubts, if investigated, often turn out to be substantiated. Readers who are not also editors and don't know about GA and FA (ie almost all readers) are left to themselves to judge. There's no ideal solution, but I believe that on a (currently) badly sourced article such as this one it's preferable to spell out for the average reader what's supported and what's not. And, of course, for editors, none of whom has leapt in with sources for the cn bits yet. If the article approaches GA or FA, we could discuss the matter again... EddieHugh (talk) 17:18, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourcing 

message: ... about this jazz musician who was really a woman.  I found out through quora.  I am seeing controversy about pronoun usage in discussion on this talk page and am choosing not to participate. Carlm0404 (talk) 05:01, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just found out ...