Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive 10

message: Golbez, I once again suggest we apply for formal mediation or ask somebody to mediate this discussion. Clearly, the dispute is serious and we need a competent mediator to help us. Please tell me if you agree to that, and I will apply for mediation. Grandmaster 06:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What's your complaint with the current version, which mentions the UN? I do not yet agree, because I do not think you are being reasonable. --Golbez 07:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  NK is legally part of Azerbaijan, the intro ignores the fact, despite so many sources I provided. Instead, it says that it is a disputed region, without explaining which state disputes it from Azerbaijan. Look at RfC, you installed the version proposed by Tigran and claim that it is neutral, while it obviuosly has seriuos POV issues. Grandmaster 07:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Because my version is way more neutral than yours. And I am not sure that suggesting that Golbez is incompetent goes along with the "good faith assumption" rule.--TigranTheGreat 08:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not neutral, you just share the same POV with Golbez, which he accepted himself. And I never said that Golbez is incompetent, I just said we need a competent mediator to mediate between Golbez and you on one side and me and Adil on the other, and I suggest we apply for the official mediation. Grandmaster 08:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: We are not switching the mediator, we applying for one. For the moment we don't have a mediator. We never asked Golbez to mediate and neither me nor Adil have ever accepted him in this capacity. We did not present our sources to him, we presented them to everybody who reads this page. His opinion is just his opinion same as that of any other contributor. But we need to resolve the dispute, and claiming that your version is neutral and my is not is just your opinion. Therefore I suggest to get a mediator, who is supported by both sides. I understand that you prefer Golbez to be a mediator since he supports your position, but the mediation requires agreement of both sides, and not just one. Grandmaster 10:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: From the very beginning Golbez has been just another contributor, like you or me. He’s never been asked to mediate, and once again I repeat that neither me nor Adil have ever accepted him as a mediator. Therefore he’s not a mediator, and I see no point in discussing this any further. He’s a good guy, but since he’s a party to the dispute we need somebody to mediate between all involved parties, including him. Now please tell me would you object if we get somebody to mediate the dispute, as we need to resolve the dispute and application for the official mediation might help? Grandmaster 20:59, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I’m not gonna repeat the same thing many times, please see above. There’s no mediation going on right now, and I suggest we apply for one. If not, I will seek other methods of dispute resolution. Grandmaster 08:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Mediation can be done only with consent of both parties. So there's no mediation currently going on. Grandmaster 04:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation 

message: The article says that Azerbaijan agreed to the referandum, but there is no such statement from an Azerbaijani official yet. Also, it should be clarified what is meant by referandum- who will take part in it, what are the requirements for a result, how binding will the results be, what the question would be. If there is no such information, then it should be indicated that these aspects of the proposed referandum are not yet celar. --TimBits  02:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I don't think this is real news either. This would have been big, I mean real big yet so far I can find this only on two Armenian independent sites.--Eupator 03:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree this referendum statement in the article should be removed as its being denied by official Azeri authorities and nothing is confirmed yet. I think its just a rumour and we shouldnt add any rumours into wikimedia articles. Baku87 18:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I corrected the information about the referendum, which is nothing but hoax. And Azerbaijani president does not say anything about referendum in his latest statements.  Grandmaster 05:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your POV is leaking, GM. An Armenian says it, it's a hoax; an Azeri says it, it's bald fact? And this all shields the fact that the person who initially announced it was the AMERICAN, and not the Armenian? --Golbez 13:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If two sides present the story completely different way, then it's not a fact. And I have not seen it's announced by an American, as far as I understood it is the latest proposal by Minsk group, on which the sides to the conflict have yet to agree. Grandmaster 19:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you read any of the articles about it? They all say Matthew Bryza, the new American co-chair of OCSE Minsk, said it, in an interview. The Armenians latched on to that, and the Azeris don't like it, but it was Bryza who said it initially, if my understanding of the articles is accurate. --Golbez 19:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Referendum

message: I have already quoted UN, PACE, Atkinson, US State Department and many other international sources, as well as Britannica and Columbia encyclopedias, all of which stated that NK is a region of Azerbaijan and this fact is recognized internationally. In response to that Tigran quoted some law schools, which have their own understanding of legal aspects, not shared by any credible international organization. Now some contributors were asking despite all the above sources, quoted by me, if NK is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. Here are more sources for you: 
Nagorno-Karabakh has aspirations for independence and argues with some reason that it has a democratically-elected government that is meeting the preconditions of statehood. However, it is internationally recognised as part of Azerbaijan and is still highly dependant on Armenia for its military security and economic survival: over half its army are believed to be Armenian citizens, while Yerevan covers 50 per cent of the budget through an "interstate loan" that is virtually interest free and unlikely to be paid back. Azeris do not participate in its political, economic, cultural and social institutions. Nagono-Karabakh has mono-ethnic institutions and become one of the world's most militarised societies.
International Crisis Group 
The conflict ended with Armenian forces in control of Nagorno-Karabakh, which is internationally recognised as part of Azerbaijan's territory. 
Nagorno-Karabakh held local elections in August, ignoring calls from the Council of Europe to cancel the balloting. The Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry issued a protest at the holding of these elections in the territory, which is internationally recognized as being part of Azerbaijan. The Armenian authorities in Karabakh, in turn, rejected the Azerbaijani claims.
Nagorno-Karabakh has enjoyed de facto independence from Azerbaijan since 1994 and retains close political, economic, and military ties with Armenia. Parliamentary elections in 1995 and 2000 were regarded as generally free and fair, as were the 1996 and 1997 presidential votes. However, the elections were considered invalid by most of the international community, which does not recognize Nagorno-Karabakh's independence. 
Freedom House 
The emerging republics of Azerbaijan and Armenia clashed over control of Nagorno-Karabakh, a territory internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan but with an ethnic Armenian majority.
Nagorno-Karabakh : A conflict that can be resolved in time by Brenda Shaffer 
International Herald Tribune  
Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs  
Although the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast of Azerbaijan declared independence in January 1992 as the Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh, no country recognizes this independence, and under international law the area remains part of Azerbaijan. In this report, "Nagorno-Karabakh" refers to the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast.
Human Rights Watch/Helsinki Azerbaijan : Seven years of conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh 
All these sources are non-governmental, but very reputable nonetheless, and they know what they are talking about. They say the same thing as the governmental sources I quoted before. The case of collective hallucination is unlikely. I suggest once again to restore the statement that NK is a de-jure part of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 11:29, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is NK internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan? 

message: One of the sources on this is encyclopedia Britannica:
 
The Russian campaigns against the Persians and the Turks in the 18th and 19th centuries resulted in large emigrations of Armenians under Muslim rule to the Transcaucasian provinces of the Russian Empire and to Russia itself. Armenians settled in Yerevan, T'bilisi, Karabakh, Shemakha (now Samaxi), Astrakhan, and Bessarabia. At the time of the massacres in Turkish Armenia in 1915, some Armenians found asylum in Russia. A number settled in the enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh within the neighbouring Muslim country of Azerbaijan. Armenians now constitute about three-fourths of the population of Nagorno-Karabakh; since 1988 there have been violent interethnic disputes and sporadic warfare between Armenians and Azerbaijanis in and around the enclave.  
The above article is written by Ronald Grigor Suny, an ethnic Armenian. 
Also, see Russian envoy to Persia Griboyedov and his Report on the settlement of Armenians from Persia in our provinces (in Russian)  Grandmaster 10:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Suny is probably in the top ten of most despised people in Armenia. He once said "Azerbaijani flag should fly upon government buildings of Stepanakert". Exact quote: The symbolic sovereignty of Azerbaijan over Karabakh would be represented by an Azerbaijani flag flying over the government house in Karabakh and the appointment of an Azerbaijani representative to Karabakh, who would have to be approved by the Karabakh government. The formal aspect of sovereignty entails that Azerbaijan represent Karabakh in the United Nations and other international bodies.--Eupator 15:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  So he’s despised in Armenia for saying that NK should maintain nominal connection with Azerbaijan? It’s interesting, but people have opinions. Grandmaster 17:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not quite, he's despised for his other absurd outbursts. I just quoted that in response to you specifying his ethnic background. Basil II or Nikephoros II were more Armenian than Suny.--Eupator 17:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Settlement of Armenians in Karabakh 

message: Here are definitions of officially and formally from dictionary.com. Based on the following, I think we should go with formally:
official
1. Of or relating to an office or a post of authority: official duties. We don't want this. 
2. Authorized by a proper authority; authoritative: official permission.  We don't want this.
3. Holding office or serving in a public capacity: an official representative. Irrelevant.
4. Characteristic of or befitting a person of authority; formal: an official banquet. Irrelevant.
5. Authorized by or contained in the U.S. Pharmacopoeia or National Formulary. Used of drugs. Irrelevant.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/officially
formal 
1. Relating to or involving outward form or structure. Kinda what we mean (the outsiders view it as region of Az)
2. Being or relating to essential form or constitution: a formal principle. Irrelevant
3. Following or being in accord with accepted forms, conventions, or regulations: had little formal education; went to a formal party. Kinda what we want (accepted UNSCR's, statements, a conventional practice of referring to it as "region of Az"
4. Executed, carried out, or done in proper or regular form: a formal reprimand; a formal document. Irrelevant.
5. Characterized by strict or meticulous observation of forms; methodical: very formal in their business transactions. Irrelevant.
6. Stiffly ceremonious: a formal manner; a formal greeting; a formal bow to the monarch. Irrelevant. 
7. Having the outward appearance but lacking in substance: a formal requirement that is usually ignored. Irrelevant.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/formally
Note that there is an additional definition saying that formally and officially are synonims. However, given the other definitions mentioned above, which we don't want (suggesting a central official authority, which doesn't exist in the world), I suggest we go with formally.--TigranTheGreat 23:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the article potentially just became a current event, this becomes simultaneously a worthless argument (because the status will likely change soon) and a very important one (because til it does, we'll have a lot of people coming in here wanting the 411). Hm. Decisions. --Golbez 00:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd prefer a stronger term. --Golbez 01:15, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could it be too strong? I mean what if it implies things that we don't want it to imply?--TigranTheGreat 01:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

text: If we use the word de-facto, we should use de jure as well, these two go together even according to wiki article, and I cited other encyclopedias as well. Grandmaster 04:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formally vs Officially 

message: Actually what is illogical is the current version of "The region was established in 1923," as reverted by GM without agreement. It makes no sense and reduces the quality of the intro. Golbez, it needs to be changed back to incorporated.--TigranTheGreat 23:00, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The phrase "In 1923, the Soviets established the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast (NKAO) in Azerbaijan, which included most of the Nagorno-Karabakh region" is much more accurate and leaves no room for various interpretations. Grandmaster 11:42, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I agreeFad (ix) 22:29, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I object. You can't say it was incorporated in Azerbaijan SSR, because there's no such decision of Soviet authorities. NK was part of Azerbaijan before, otherwise why would Kavburo say: mountainous Karabakh is to remain within AzSSR, receiving wide regional autonomy? Grandmaster 11:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, I will not play the revert war, you are wrong, Nagorno Karabakh delimitation was formed from the local Armenian autorities formed after World War I, the British placed it under Azeris juridiction to get the equivalent of Chestler consession over Baku and decided of its final destiny for the peace conference, which did not happen. Nagorno Karabakh, this 'entity' was later incorporated in Azerbaijan. If you care for the accuracy of this article, you should use incorporporated, a word used in peer reviewed journals to discribe the situation. Fad (ix) 15:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nagorno-Karabakh Autonoumous Oblast (NKAO) was created in 1923. It was not incorporated in Azerbaijan SSR. It was left within Azerbaijan and demands of Armenia were rejected. The text of Kavburo resolution is available to everyone. Indeed, British administration also de-facto recognized the region as part of Azerbaijan and agreed with appointment of Azerbaijani governor to Karabakh, and by the time the Soviets took the region over it was in fact part of Azerbaijan, so saying that it was incorporated in Azerbaijan is wrong and factually inaccurate. Grandmaster 16:48, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not true, this article is about Nagorno-Karabakh, which was actually incorporated to form the NKAO. The Armenian demands were actually accepted, and the Azerbaijan side also agreed. The decision was reverted after one of those who voted changed his mind later, and it was then incorporated in Azerbaijan SSR and formed the NKAO. The most accurate word is indeed incorporated. Fad (ix) 17:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Azerbaijani side did not agree, and Narimanov protested the decision. So the decision to take NK from Azerbaijan SSR and include it into Armenian SSR was annulled and NK was left in Azerbaijan. The resolution said to leave NK in Azerbaijan SSR, and not include in Azerbaijan SSR. You can’t change the text of resolution and include in the article your own interpretations of the resolution text. The line in question discusses the creation of NKAO, and it should be factually accurate. It should contain only facts, and not interpretations. Grandmaster 18:31, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not true, Narimanov actually agreed before the decision was reverted back. Narimanov personally agreed and said the problem does not exist anymore. I have a French translation of Ordjonikidze speech concerning Narimanov acceptance., I can post it here. As well as the decreee of June 12, 1921, as well as the other decree of June 13. It was never taken from the Azerbaijan SSR which didn't even existed at that time. I do not change any text of resolution, as  Ordjonikidze is clear, so as the decree's. There is no question that Nagorno Karabakh was incorporated, there is no other term which could replace this one, neither created, neither formed, neither invented neither anything else. The word incorporated is the one used in peer reviewed publications, I don't see what is the problem with it, or what is your problem with it. Fad (ix) 19:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I just want to add that Nagorno Karabakh was bought(by Turkey) by a decision between the Russians and the Turks, a false promess by the Kemalists of joining the Soviet confederation in 1921 was exchanged with 6,5 million gold roubles, 33,275 pistols, 57,986,000 pistol balls, 327 machine guns, 54 canons, 129,479 shells, 1,500 sabers and 20,000 gas masks and a contract for more in the upcomming years, and the incorporation of Nakhichevan and Nagorno Karabakh with the garanty that they won't become part of Armenia ever, it was close that Zankezour was to be lost, but the Bolshevics kept as garanty cutting the Turkish line. Nagorno Karabakh had already an Armenian administration working as a republic before the British decided to make a 180 degree turn to secure their oil contracts in the Caspian and placed it under a temporary Azeris juridiction without consulting the allies, the League of Nations refused to recognize Azeri juridiction. (of course, there is no mention of this too, in the article, and if added it will probably get edited) There is an entire chapter, maybe an article to be created about this whole affair. But definitly, there is no question, that it was indeed incorporated. Also, Grandmaster said to Golbez that no Muslim region was created in Armenia, implying that the Soviet advantaged the Armenians. True, no such thing was created, but for a reason, every pieces where there was said to be a considerable Muslim population (from 30% of the population to more) were sliced from Armenia, while various regions, and here I am not only talking about Nakhichevan or Karabakh were distributed to Azerbaijan, Turkey and also Georgia. Even Kars part of Russian Armenia, with its 81 thousand Armenian population was just given to Turkey with Soviet recognition, and I don't say what happened to them. I wonder how Grandmaster can even claim that the Russians were favioring the Armenians, when Kars, Ardahan, Surmalu, Olti, Khaghisman, Kazagh, Nakhichevan, half of Sharur-Daragiaz were just distributed to Azerbaijan and Turkey... not to mention those disputed territories which were later gained by Georgia. While Armenia was literaly starved by Turkey, the devastation in Alexandripole, and the refugee crises, mostly orphans victim of the genocide, with false promesses of brotherhood, the Soviet were agreeing any compromises amputing Armenia. In some articles in Wikipedia it is even written that both Azerbaijan and Armenia accuses the Soviets for having taken such decisions against their national interests. This must be a joke, what was Azerbaijan expecting, to get Yerevan too? The only place where there was any considerable Muslim population was Zankezour, but even then, the Armenians were constituting a majority. Now sure, Grandmaster could try removing the word incorporated, but then, I hope he will not claim that he is doing this for the accuracy of the article. Fad (ix) 01:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Once again, it was not incorporated in Azerbaijan. There was no such decision that said NK is to be incorporated in Azerbaijan SSR. There was a decision to leave NK within Azerbaijan and give it an autonomy. So we cannot distort the facts, we should provide accurate information, since we have the original documents available. It was part of Azerbaijan Democratic Republic, and Soviets also left it within Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 04:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not true, Manitoba, British Columbia, and Prince Edward Island were incorporated in the Canadian confederation as provinces, the same way as Nagorno Karabakh was incorporated as an Oblask in Azerbaijan. Manitoba, British Columbia, and Prince Edward were not created as provinces. Fad (ix) 17:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Precisely, another example is how the territories such as Dakota Territory or Idaho Territory were incorporated into the United States.--Eupator 19:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Again, show me a decision on incorporation of NK into Azerbaijan SSR. Grandmaster 20:43, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I haven't participated in the discussions about this incorporation issue and haven't read everything. But, just as a suggestion would you consider something like this- "it was left within Azerbaijan and incorporated as NKAO"? --TimBits  23:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good suggestion. Such wording would be accurate from historical point of view. Grandmaster 04:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Fine then, if both sides consider it a good suggestion, then you can go ahead and change it accordingly. --TimBits  05:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The word "incorporated" is nowhere near NPOV, it is blatant POV. It cannot be used for a simple reason that Soviets never adopted a decision on incorporation of NK into Azerbaijan, they decided to leave it where it was. Check the resolution again. Grandmaster 06:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorporated 

message: Karabakh means Black Garden in Azerbaijani language, and the Azeri algnauge itself is a mix of Russian, Persian and Turkish. We dont have to start playing the denial game here, it simply means black garden in Azeri, there is no need to divide Azeri language in Turkish and Persian. Addentional the word kara also means black in Azeri en the word bag mean garden in Azeri. So the article should divide the Azerbaijani language and make things complicated. Baku87 17:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't replace sourced info with unsourced. Find a source that backs you up first. --Golbez 18:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  BBC source 

message: I know there's beenm a lot of confusion on the negotiations recently, and I think this interview of American mediator Matthew Bryza by Radio Free Europe might prove somewhat informative.--Pharos 06:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Souce on current situation 

message: the mice shall play --Golbez 17:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am very disappointed. --Golbez 15:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess what disappoints me is, the volume of editing while I was here was very small, and most of the edits that stuck were mine. I leave, and bam, nearly 50 edits in two days. I take this to mean two things: One, I was a de facto moderator, as people seemed to respect my edits and discuss them before reverting; two, no one respected me enough to continue that process when I was absent. --Golbez 18:20, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice to see you back Golbez. Fad (ix) 20:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do not leap to conclusions. BTW, when I wrote that, I was playing hooky from work. I'm now back home. --Golbez 02:27, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

text: This has nothing to do with your absence actually, but more to do with the reappearance of a certain instigator and provocateur.--Eupator 22:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have to disagree, I think there is a direct link of causality between Golbez absence and Adil presence in the NK article. Fad (ix) 22:27, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not quite, we don't disagree. Both were prerequisites for the current situation, judging from Adil's track record on the other locked articles it is evident that this was his intention all along.--Eupator 23:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: About your second paragraph; protecting it on a version does not mean the administrator who locked it on that version accept that version. It just means that he or she attempted to stop the edit warring. The article for the time being should not be unprotected, it should rather be replaced on the last version before the edit war started. --Fad (ix) 16:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  the cat is away