Talk:Mit brennender Sorge

message: The translation "anxiety" for "Sorge" is very unusual. "Concern" would be the best fit. But this is what the official page says. It is also strange that the official Vatican site does not have this document in its original language. Sebastian 06:49, 2005 Mar 14 (UTC)
::The Vatican has the German text here: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_ge.html 69.212.51.56 (talk) 05:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Translation concerns

message: Composed mostly by then Cardinal Pacelli, unlike most encyclicals, which are written in Latin, was written in German. It was then smuggled into Germany, secretly distributed, and read at the Masses on Palm Sunday. The Nazis confiscated all available copies of the encyclical, arrested printers who made copies, and seized their presses. Those distributing the encyclical were arrested.Mit Brennender Sorge. Encyclical of Pope Pius XII. March 14, 1937. This version is not the one on the Vatican website
Sources describing Mit Brennender Sorge are:
*Thomas Bokenkotter, A Concise History of the Catholic Church
*John Vidmar, The Catholic Church througout the Ages
*Anthony Rhodes, The Vatican in the Age of the Dictators
*Carlo Falconi, The POPES in the Twentieth Century, from Pius X to John XXIII
*The Vatican website for Mit Brennender Sorge is here 
All of these sources support the article text referenced to Thomas Bokenkotter. NancyHeise  talk 03:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  From the [[Pope Pius XII]] article  

message: If there is a connection to either antisemitism or the fight against it, it needs to be explained in the article. In its current state, it is unclear why the aricle belongs to this cat. ←Humus sapiens ну? 06:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Antisemitism]] 

message: Below literal manual translation from German, by native speaker of German. The interjections have been left in place.
Wer in sakrilegischer Verkennung der zwischen Gott und Geschöpf, zwischen dem Gottmenschen und den Menschenkindern klaffenden Wesensunterschiede irgend einen Sterblichen, und wäre er der Größte aller Zeiten, neben Christus zu stellen wagt, oder gar über Ihn und gegen Ihn, der muß sich sagen lassen, daß er ein Wahnprophet ist, auf den das Schriftwort erschütternde Anwendung findet: „Der im Himmel wohnt, lachet ihrer“
Who - in sacrilegic disregard for the difference in nature between God and creature, between the God-human and the children of man - dares to place any mortal - and were he the greatest of all times - by the side of Christus, or even above him and against him, has to let himself told, that he is a prophet of delusions, to whom the written word applies in harrowing way "The one who is dwelling in heaven laughs about them"
70.137.140.88 (talk) 07:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The word used for Christ, in English, is The God-Man. --93.135.49.244 (talk) 11:41, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Manual translation

message: I do not think that this article should criticize any lack of mention of anti-semitism in Mit Brennender Sorge. Jews were not the only people being persectuted by the Nazis. The encyclical does not single out Catholics either, it condems "racism" which is an apparent reference to anti-semitism. I think this article is in grave need of overhaul to reflect the most scholarly sources. Falconi is given too prominient a place in the article given that his book is out of print and not oft cited. Bokenkotter has three reprintings, it is the most widely used scholarly source on Church history that is used as a university textbook by wide range of universities for over three decades and is the most oft cited of any of the sources on the page. I think his review of Mit Brennender Sorge deserves a greater representation on the page. NancyHeise  talk 19:10, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it should criticize, but that's different from saying that it shouldn't include the question of whether the encyclical mentioned anti-semitism, especially if discussed repeatedly in multiple reliable sources. Falconi may be out of print, but its very much available at any major university library; I have no idea on what basis you make the claim it is not often cited; it is included in any halfway decent review of literature on the subject (and there have been many; e.g. Sanchez). I have no idea why we can't present both and attribute their opinions to the author; there is no need for Wikipedia to claim one of the views is "right", and the factors you suggest for doing so are dubious at best. A textbook, like an encyclopedia, is generally not given as much scholarly weight as a secondary source for the simple reason that it does not cite nearly as many primary sources, have a different audience, etc. Savidan 19:29, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Bokenkotter book meets the highest standards of WP:reliable source examples It is not written as a textbook, it just so happens to have been used as one for three decades by multiple universities for the simple reason that it is considered the most scholarly and definitive work on the history of the Church. I have not seen Falconi's assessment of Mit Brennender Sorge in any other source. You say it is in Sanchez' book - can you provide an isbn, page number and quote? That would be helpful. Thanks. NancyHeise  talk 19:42, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not contest that it is reliable; that is a far cry from saying that it should trump all other points of view. I refer to José Mariano Sánchez, Pius XII and the Holocaust: understanding the controversy, p. 33. "Another important work unearthing sources is Carlo Falconi...".  His book is cited many more times in books about Pius XII, as you can easily confirm on Google books (where you can also find the Sánchez book). I don't see why it matters whether the specific point in Falconi's book has been discussed in other works; to my knowledge you do not even claim that about Bokenkotter. Savidan 22:50, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

text: This was 1937. Jews at the time were discriminated against, derided, officially relegated to second-class citizens, forbidden to marry non-Jew Germans, banned from a lot of professions, and encouraged to emigrate. The great pogrom of 1938 however had not happened yet, nor (on a large scale) Jews rounded up to ghettoes or concentration camps just because of being Jewish (that was after the 1938 November pogrom - the concentration camps then were for political prisoners), nor had there been a decision to systematically exterminate them (that was somewhen around 1941), nor had that extermination started (that was in the years following). A 1937 encyclical has the interesting property that it has been written in 1937 and must be considered accordingly.--2001:A61:20E7:E901:2CA8:8671:4253:DC86 (talk) 20:31, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Anti-semitism

message: Is considered vandalism. I do not understand why Savidan eliminated a whole sourced section on the Background of Mit Brennender Sorge that is highly referenced to multiple sources discussing that exact subject. Please do not delete sourced content, especially without discussion. Thanks. NancyHeise  talk 20:11, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Simply a mistake. I must have clicked by accident in my watchlist. I did not and do not intent to edit this article for the time being. Savidan 22:52, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Blanking sourced text

message: The claim that Divini Redemptoris is more harsh on Communism is all well sourced but, I believe, inaccurate. What Divini Redemptoris says about Communism is: it is atheist, based on the erroneous Marxist philosophy, and dangerous. Well - no sensation in there. It is only Ardenti cura, not Divini Redemptoris, that designs a conception of entire Catholicism, and this as an explicit counter-concept to the ideology it condemns. I believe this is more "harsh" than any vocabulary can ever be. --84.154.119.164 (talk) 15:41, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Divini Redemptoris

message: I understand that this is a controversial topic, with one side wanting to emphasize how good the Catholic Church is, and the other trying to minimize the value of this letter. Please be easy with me, a new editor on this page. I'm not a Catholic, and I think the Roman Catholic Church has a 'lot' of explaining to do, but it's important to be fair when addressing historical events. This letter is a perfect example of how a religion can have both a good side and a bad side, so let's cover both sides fairly. I'm interested in this letter because I just read about it in a secular history book, and it's the sort of interesting historical event that I wish I'd known about earlier. Leadwind (talk) 18:37, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Defending the Catholic faith and the possibility of practicing it in Germany counts as "good side". Thus, I fail to see how you make out a "bad side" in this specific encyclical.--131.159.76.186 (talk) 15:14, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The "bad side" is the often-cited idea that the church tried too hard to reach an accommodation with the Nazis, and did too little to condemn their racist (and especially anti-semitic) policies. See Pope_Pius_XII#Views.2C_interpretations_and_scholarship for an overview of this ongoing controversy.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.146.172.106 (talk) 21:19, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Without wishing to enter the debate on that assertion, I (IP 131.159.etc.) may note that I simply said in this specific encyclical. Whatever to be said about the rest of all events, in this encyclical the Church manifestly did not try too hard to reach an accomodation, nor too little to condemn their racist views.--2001:A61:2089:9601:24FD:78BF:84A1:DCD4 (talk) 08:59, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  controversy 

message: It doesn't do a good job of describing the content. Maybe I'll pitch in. Mostly I like to do leads. Leadwind (talk) 18:50, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content section? 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Mit brennender Sorge's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Ian Kershaw p.381-382":
From Reichskonkordat: Ian Kershaw; Hitler: A Biography; 2008 Edn; W.W. Norton & Co; London; pp. 381–82
From Religion in Nazi Germany: Ian Kershaw; Hitler a Biography; 2008 Edn; WW Norton & Company; London; p. 381-382
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 03:52, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Mit brennender Sorge]] 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Mit brennender Sorge's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Ian Kershaw pp210-11":
From Rescue of Jews by Catholics during the Holocaust: Ian Kershaw; The Nazi Dictatorship: Problems and Perspectives of Interpretation; 4th Edn; Oxford University Press; New York; 2000"; pp. 210–11
From Catholic resistance to Nazi Germany: Ian Kershaw; The Nazi Dictatorship: Problems and Perspectives of Interpretation; 4th Edn; Oxford University Press; New York; 2000; pp 210–11
Reference named "Honourable Defeat p.59":
From Catholic resistance to Nazi Germany: Anton Gill; An Honourable Defeat; A History of the German Resistance to Hitler; Heinemann; London; 1994; p.59
From Catholic Church and Nazi Germany: Gill, 1994, p.59
From Clemens August Graf von Galen: Anton Gill; An Honourable Defeat; A History of the German Resistance to Hitler; Heinemann; London; 1994; p.59
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 05:15, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Mit brennender Sorge]] 

message: In the title of the section named Defending the "Old Testament", why is Old Testament in quotation marks? Marnanel (talk) 23:40, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotes around Old Testament 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The 1933 Sterilisation Law is immoral and repulsive, but in what sense is it a violation of the Reichskonkordat? Clivemacd (talk) 16:25, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: In the freedom to confess and publicly practice the Catholic religion (Art. 1) there is included, a fortiori, the liberty to practice it in private; this includes not having to endure against one's will something forbidden by the morality that is insisted on by the Catholic religion, such as sterilization.--131.159.76.186 (talk) 15:20, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sterilisation Law 

message: The Asssessments section in nothing more than lengthy quotes, which is discouraged.  See Wikipedia:Quotations#Overuse.  Kablammo (talk) 16:38, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excessive quotation 

message: The lead seems a bit overlong for the article. It appears that it might unnecessarily restate many of the points raised later in the body of the article and that a more concise lead would assist readers. I haven't made any changes pending a discussion here. Geoff |  Who, me? 15:16, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It would appear nobody has any objections, so please rewrite the lead as you see fit. Thanks. —howcheng  {chat} 20:15, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK. Took a first pass at it - moved two paragraphs unchanged from the lead to the appropriate portions of the article as they included references not already in the article. Anyone else up for a go? Geoff |  Who, me? 16:01, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead too long? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I feel it's worth mentioning that Faulhaber and Pacelli were both in Munich during the 1923 putsch. Wouldn't this have had something to do with the reasoning behind the document? - knoodelhed (talk) 21:45, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical context