Talk:Cherokee/Archive 1

message: what's in a name?
The main article begins with:
"The Cherokee, or  (Unicode: ᎠᏂᏴᏫᏯ) (ah-ni-yv-wi-ya) in the Cherokee language"
That erroneously claims "Cherokee" = "ah-ni-yv-wi-ya" which it does not.
Cherokee = Tsalagi, same word, just different spelling, Tsa-la-gi merely a "force-fit" being spelled in the anglicized letters to phonetically conform to the syllabary.  Neither of those words equates with "ah-ni-yv-wi-ya".  They are 'foreign words', used by others to identify the "Cherokee".  "ah-ni-yv-wi-ya" is what the "Cherokee" traditionally called themselves, "real people" or [egotistically] "the principal people".
"Cherokee" to the "ah-ni-yv-wi-ya" is akin to "Sioux" to the "Lakota".
Qureus1 21:41, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

message: This is important oral traditional teachings of the Cherokee
Without this aricle those who read this encyclapedia will be missinformed about the Cherokee People.We have been here and are not the stereotype people you think we are. 
Angela Layton
And this is the Traditional History:
History of the
Nacion Cherokee de Mexico
(Cherokee Nation of Mexico)
“When the one Creator of all things,
U-nay-kla-nah-hi, made the first Cherokees,
the stars began to twinkle with approval;
thus it is our responsibility to live up to these heavenly expectations.”
Chief Jahtlohi Rogers
When you learn that Cherokee history is a multi-colored rope,
woven by our ancestors from the beginning of time. Their weaving was strong and good enough to get us here, but not without many, many of the strands breaking. Then during thunderstorms, you will be able to hear the old ones chant “Be warned, Cherokee! Weave stronger, Cherokee! Be warned”
Chief Jahtlohi Rogers 
A Mayan carving of people who had come from The East and who had but one God.
Osiyo. Our grandfathers’ most ancient stories tell us that we Cherokees were in exodus and walked a great distance when we came to the ocean. With faith we built rafts and crossed the ocean, coming from the East to the West and established a life for ourselves in this new land of the Americas. About 1000 B.C., a people from a rubber tree forest invaded Eastern Mexico. The indigenous Mexicans called these newcomers the Olmec. They were a people completely obsessed with magic; we avoided them by traveling to the North. 
Many Mayan carvings suggest racial mixtures.
Our Cherokee traditional stories interlock and agree with several of the ancient pre-Columbian Mayan and Mexican legends which tell of a people arriving from the East who believed in a single, benevolent, providing God. Some of these travelers from the East had different coloration of eyes and skin shade; some had beards. The Maya and other early Mexicans drew pictures of these people, who wore hats and turbans not unlike those the Cherokee have always worn and wear today. The Mexican legends said that these people would return in time. 
Mayan carving showing man in a turban & beard with a non-Mayan nose.
It is not known to this day which people or combination of peoples built the great pyramid city of the Valley of Mexico, but the Cherokees were living in Mexico at that time, as were the Tlamatinimi (which means “wise men” in the ancient Mexican language). They were a pre-Columbian group of intellectuals, engineers, and astronomers who shared a common belief or connection with the Cherokee in that their religion also had only one God who was merciful, who had created all things, and who would provide what you needed, not necessarily what you wished. This ancient Mexican society, the Tlamatinimi, was supremely rational and civilized, arguably even more civilized than Greeks or Romans. Their society existed within different Mexican civilizations and were unfazed by the threat of a gallery of monster gods used to motivate and control the populace. In 1450 A.D. they were centered at Texcoco. 
Mayan carving showing Turban with blond mustache & freckled cheekbones supporting Mayan legends of a people who came from the East who worshipped but one God.
Cherokee migration legend tells of our exodus north, three to four thousand years ago, past the river of the ferocious ones, which we believe to be the Rio Grande River where the cannibalistic Karankawas lived. In the mid-1800’s, Stephen F. Austin saw this tribe in person and described them as very handsome and intimidating, with men averaging 7 ft. in height and women 6 ft. 
A bearded man in a cloth cap distinguishes this Mayan carving.
The Cherokee pushed on to the big waters of the Mississippi, then on to the headwaters of the Ohio, where they built walled cities and huge mounds for burial. The Delaware came from the west and, with assistance from the Iroquois federation, fought to remove the Cherokee, for the time period of 7 chiefs, or approximately 200 years, before the Cherokee went East to the mountains and coast. The exodus was pressured by war to continue south with the Cherokees arriving in the Georgia area in approximately 800 to 1000 A.D. 
Cherokee Chief John Jolly as depicted by George Catlin
The first European or Spaniard to visit the Cherokee in the Georgia area was the explorer conquistador DeSoto in 1540. His official writings astonishingly state that many of the Cherokee were light skinned while, of course, many were not. De Soto noted “some with light brown and blond hair equal in coloration to some of my Spanish soldiers”. Of the hundred or more indigenous tribes visited by this Spanish explorer, no other tribe would be noted for the great mystery of being racially mixed like the Cherokee. According to oral tradition and existing written history, we know we have been mixed for several thousand years. Cherokee Chief Oconostota, whose forefathers had all been chiefs, had himself been chief for 60 years when, in 1782, he told Col. Sevier about the Cherokee history of the Welch people who had come in approximately 1100. The Chiefs story also agrees with the Welsh legend of Prince Maddox, who was said to have come with ten shiploads of white people and settled on the Hiawasse River. The Cherokee fought with them, took prisoners, and negotiated the retreat of the Welsh, who joined the Mandan tribe on Mobile Bay. (This is stated in an existing document dated 1808 which Col. Sevier sent to Major Stoddard, who was trying to locate these racially mixed Indians.) 
:To be pedantic, De Soto wrote nothing about his travels in America -- he died during the trip.  There are several texts written by other members of his army, but interpretation is made difficult in that the three or four texts often contradict one another and do not give good enough geographical information to work out the exact route they took.
:Also, the story of a medieval Welsh journey to the southeast always struck me as one of the many tales told of "civilized" Old World people coming to the Indians.  There are many stories of how ancient Hebrews came to America, or Chinese, or even Egyptians.  The basic premise of these stories, it always seemed to me, was that the Indians couldn't have built the giant mounds and stonework ruins that are found in America, so some civilized Old World culture must have come over and built them, or at least taught the "savage" Indians how to.  The Welsh story seems to be one of these, to me.  I've never before heard of Oconostota telling Sevier about medieval Welsh.  Are you sure Oconostota wasn't playing a joke on Sevier if he told him this?  Or perhaps he meant De Soto and the Spanish, and Sevier misunderstood? Pfly 00:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This part of Cherokee and Texas history ought to be remembered and included in articles on both histories.  Sam Houston was, if I remember right, a Cherokee by adoption, Chief Jolly being his adopted father. Pfly 00:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: The history of Cherokee migrations to Mexico has always intrigued me.  I only recently learned about it.  Thanks for the information!  All I knew was that "some" Cherokee had migrated into Mexico, and Sequoyah did too, or at least died along the way to Mexico, but that he encouraged other Cherokee to migrate to Mexico as well. Pfly 00:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: [this line seems to be misplaced and causes confusion.. most of the following paragraph seems to relate to Sequoyah, not the treacherous Ridge I think.] Qureus1 08:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

text: That is interesting.. all I had read was that Sequoyah died on the way to Mexico or "somewhere in Mexico". Pfly 00:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: What a story. It's historical fact the Cherokee fled to other countries from the U.S. and what some Cherokees heard is some went north to Canada, as a few thousand Cherokees decidedly turn away from the "trail of tears". When the Cherokee Nation had international diplomacy with some Latin American countries, there was a voluntary movement of Cherokee farm hands after the US Civil War took a toll on the tribal culture. They abandoned farms and plantations, as well the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma was under occupation by the U.S. army from 1865 onward to the opening of lands to settlement in 1889.
Remember that the U.S. is a land of emigrants like any other, such as the 15,000 former Confederacy citizens loyal to the Southern U.S. went to Brazil, Venezuela and Cuba to restart their fortunes and lives. A number of Cherokee landowners and skilled farmers were invited to settle in bargain priced land plots. By the end of the 1880's, some authorities in Brazil claimed 10,000 Cherokees among 40,000 other Americans relocated there. The towns of Campinas and Americana, São Paulo are a developed region north of São Paulo, Brazil, where some historic remnants of those hardy families of American descent, Amerindian or Anglo-European, are observed. But in a generation or two, they assimilated into Latin American culture.
However, the Cherokee are probably there in Central and South America since the late 16th century, when the Spanish purchased enslaved Cherokees through trade. Joaquin Murrieta, the 1850s bandit of noble background claimed Cherokee ancestry from his Chilean-born mother, his father is a Californio, Spanish colonial inhabitants of then Mexican California. His notoriety as an outlaw was not he fought the "white" Anglo-Americans who took ranchos, lands from earlier Californio owners, but Murrieta was patronized as he sympathize the struggle of the American Indian. 
The Cherokees of Mexico,  some others migrated into Canada, their communities across the US, and any overseas descendants indicated a mass dispersion, but the CNO aren't exactly sure if any "lost cherokee" are authentic or a fraud pandemic in their hands. The tribe wants to take precautions on admittance of new members, because some claims of "lost cherokee" turned out to be scams or the fact is historical records of Cherokee dispersal are few and between.+ 207.200.116.139 04:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Roger's Cherokees of Mexico

message: Someone explain to me why the only thing listed under recent news is the gay marriage issue with the Cherokee Nation?  This horse hockey!  I'm going to edit this section.  This gay marriage thing was a tiny, tiny blip in relation to all of the issues that the tribe has faced in the last 20 years.  This is NOT NPV.-----Keetoowah 19:25, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent News 

message: The article says, "Sequoyah is the only person in history to invent a written language single handedly."  That's nice, but kind of a pointless statement.  I could sit down tonight and invent a written language and then that statement would be wrong.  Now granted, my hypotheical language is useless compared to Cherokee, making Sequoyah's work remarkable.  Also, how do you know no one has done this before in history?  Absolute statements like this are usually just plain wrong.  I am going to change the article now. Rangek 23:32, 2005 May 6 (UTC)
:I suppose the phrase "single handedly" was used because Saint Cyril worked with his brother. --Kevin Myers 04:16, May 7, 2005 (UTC)
::It's still wrong. Constructed languages have had written forms created by few or (in some cases) a single author since the 19th century. Probably the most famous of these outside of linguistic circles would be the Languages of Middle-earth, created by J. R. R. Tolkien (and the original motivation for the well known trilogy, The Lord of the Rings). -Harmil 22:56, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sequoyah 

message: I've moved the large essay that was injected into this article to Cherokee/Temp. Please feel free to go there and edit it or talk about it. I don't have time to par it down into a useful, well edited, NPOV section right now, but if you do, then be bold! -Harmil 18:09, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New text moved to Cherokee/Temp 

message: Entire section moved to user:gadugi where it is more appropriate since this whole discussion involves personal information. Gadugi 07:51, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved Jeff Merkey Cherokee Ancestry Discussion and Controversy to user:gadugi =

message: Subject: jeff merkey's status as a cherokee
From: "Dusty Delso" <Dusty-Delso@cherokee.org>
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:44:56 -0500
To: <george.constanza2005@gmail.com>
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Thread-Topic:jeff merkey's status as a cherokee
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George,
 
Jeff Merkey is indeed a citizen of the Cherokee nation.  He is a gifted
pioneer in computer operating system development and donated one of his
open source systems to the Cherokee nation.  He is a dear friend of mine
and cares deeply about the Cherokee nation and his people.
 
I am curious who or why he was moved from the listing of famous Cherokee
to controversial Cherokee.  Anyone who was one of the original authors
of the novell operating system is a famous Cherokee in my book.
 
Thanks for the e-mail
 
Dusty Delso ph.d
Executive director of education and culture
Cherokee nation
I hope this closes the discussion about me.  I will not perform any vanity edits here, despite the 
wishes of Dr. Delso and my people.  That is for someone else to do.  Gadugi 23:19, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Cherokee Nation Response to Vryl (<george.constanza2005@gmail.com>) 

message: When an ethnic group and a language have the same name, it's standard practice to use pages like this as disambiguation pages. Just have a look at Sindhi, Norwegian and Shona for examples. This article should be moved to Cherokee people according to this formula.
Oh, and if you do make the move, please don't keep the dab page at Cherokee (disambiguation) with a redirect from Cherokee. That makes as much as sense as redirecting French language to French (language).
Peter Isotalo 14:38, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation 

message: Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya (pronounced Ah-nee-yuh-wee-yaw) is the name the Cherokee people have used to refer to themselves from the dawn of recorded history. The word "Che-ro-kee" is a European derived word which came originally from the Choctaw trade language.  "Cherokee" was derived from the Choctaw word "Cha-la-kee" which means "those who live in the mountains" or "those who live in the caves."  
:Some report that there are several other possible phonetic roots for 'Cherokee':
::1] "Chelokee" (Creek) meaning "people of a different speech".  This makes sense since the Iroquoian language they spoke was different from the other tribes in the southeast 'USA'.
::2] "Chilukki" (Choctaw and Chickasaw) meaning 'dog people', perhaps derogatory as was Sioux [little snakes] bestowed on the Lakota by their enemies.
::3] "Cha-la-kee" (Choctaw) [note similar sound to #2, but with different meaning ascribed as "those who live in the mountains" or "those who live in the caves."
:This latter definition, 'people from the mountains' or 'land of caves' seems to be consistent with many other 'foreign' words that don't sound like 'Tsalagi' or 'Cherokee' but were used to identify them:
::Entarironnen (Huron) for 'mountain people' 
::Matera (or Manteran) (Catawba) for 'coming out of the ground'
::Oyatageronon (or Oyaudah, Uwatayoronon) (Iroquois) for 'cave people'
References [some redundant]:
 
Qureus1 08:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Content from [[ah-ni-yv-wi-ya]]

message: Does anyone think it would be a good idea to make new articles for the modern Cherokee Nation, United Keetoowah Band, etc., treating the articles like those of other nations, such as Spain and Russia?  Since these are Federally Recognised sovereign nations, I think this would be good.
The info from the "Modern Cherokee Nation" section could be moved there then, and more information could be added.  Then this article could just be about the Cherokee people in general.  Let me know what y'all think about it.  –Benjamin  (talk)  18:51, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate pages for modern tribes? 

message: A new user recently created this article and seemed to have some issues with Wikistyle and guidelines.  I have zero expertise in this area and I am commenting here because at the moment the article is mainly about Cherokee society/culture.  More experienced editors may peruse the information and take what they will to other pages or improve the article as it is. Thanks all. -Scm83x 12:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Native American spirituality]] request for aid 

message: This ruling was made despite the long tradition of berdaches/"Two-Spirits" in Native American traditions.  These "third-gender" individuals often lived as men or women despite their biological gender and were sometimes burnt at the stake, this "role assumption" included assuming the sexual and social position of the opposite sex.
Is there any evidence for these being a part of Cherokee culture specifically? As it stands, this sounds like an ignorant or patronizing aside.
Two-Spirits was not a Cherokee Belief.  See the Cherokee Clans article as it contains an excellent section from a verified Cherokee historian about this dispute.  67.177.11.129 04:49, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong. The article says nothing about "two-spirits," only same-sex relationships. A relationship with a "two-spirit" was not considered a same-sex relationship. -- WiccaIrish 21:11, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

text: This has nothing to do with homosexual relationships. One must realize that a relationship with a "two-spirit" (male-bodied "two-spirit" with a cisgendered male or a female-bodied "two-spirit" with a cigendered female) was NOT seen as being a same-sex relationship. So was there Gay marriage among the Cherkoee? Most likely not. However, the Cherokee did in fact once recognize "two-spirit" individuals among them. According to Raymond D. Fogelson, a manuscript from 1825 by Charles Christopher Trowbridge in the archives of George Mason University, Washington, D.C. shows this. As well as personal communication with a traditional Cherokee woman that I once knew. Eastern tribes were acculturated much earlier than Western tribes. -- WiccaIrish 21:06, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gay marriage. 

message: Someone added all of this to the Chad Smith article, none of it is about Smith. I am putting it here so the editors of this article can use if it they wish. Please feel free to delete the content from this talk page when done culling the good from the bad and incorporating what you wish. KillerChihuahua?!? 14:08, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: It looks like this was virtually a copy-paste from this article, if so please just delete from this talk page. Thanks - KillerChihuahua?!? 14:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Content from the [[Chad "Corntassel" Smith|Chad Smith]] article

message: The Cherokee Nation has announced and participated in numerous joint programs with the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians and participates in cultural exchange programs and joint Tribal Council meetings involving councilers from both Cherokee Tribes which addresses issues which affect all of the Cherokee People.  Unlike the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians adversarial relationship with the Cherokee Nation between the administrations of both tribes, the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians interactions with the Cherokee Nation presents a unified spirit of Gadugi with the leaders and citizens of the Eastern Band.
WITHOUT THE EASTERN BAND THERE WOULD BE NO OKLAHOMA NATION.THE EASTERN BAND WERE THE ORIGINAL CHEROKEES.REMEMBER TSALI ???
Oh yes, Tsali (he lived in the 1770s) was a famous Cherokee warrior and defender of his tribe from white or American settlers in the Carolinas. Tsali disliked the constant attacks by settlers onto Cherokee villages, because the settlers felt they blocked further expansion of the then colony North Carolina (1776). Tsali sided with British 'redcoat' soldiers, whom allied themselves with the Cherokee, and the British attacked the Western frontier of North Carolina, in part of the American Revolution. In 1780, the course of this little known war between Americans and Cherokee came to an end, when colonial troopers caught Tsali and put him on a staged trial. Tsali was lynched for his "high crimes" and the Cherokees encountered 40 more years of battles over sovereignity with the new country, the United States. Other great American Indian fighters like Tecumseh, Shawnee prophet, Nez Perce and Sitting Bull has heard of Tsali and his struggles against land grabs or settlers' attacks. I heard Tsali was of chief lineage or from the highest class of tribal warriors, then I have to continue my research in books and the web to verify claims of Tsali's clan.+ 207.200.116.139 03:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cherokee Nation Relationship with the Eastern Band

message: Information concerning the 1999 Cherokee Constitution, BIA's opposition to it and the efforts made to adopt it inspite of that opposition should be added to this article somewhere.  The topic appears to be extremely controversial with some Cherokees, so it may be difficult to find a source that is both authoritative and unbiased.  The information on the Cherokee Nation's own site dates from 2003, at which time an election was held which passed the 1999 constitution.  However, I've been unable to find information concerning BIA's reaction to that vote.  The true status of this constitution is therefore not at all clear to me.  There are at least a few Cherokee websites which rather vehemently claim this constitution is invalid.  (Of course, there is also at least one website which just as vehemently claims that the Oukah is the proper Emperor of All the Cherokees.)  It may not be possible to deal with this topic in a way that is both WP:NPOV and WP:VERIFY, but it seems incomplete without at least mentioning it.  — MediaMangler 04:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1999 Constitution 

message: A while back I added some text in the Cherokee script typed in Unicode (standard Wikipedia format), and it's since been replaced by an image. While I personally have no preference either way, I was wondering what Wikipedia's policy is on this, as Cherokee is present in the Unicode standard and there are several free fonts which can display it.
67.142.130.27 05:05, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cherokee Text in Unicode 

message: In the section telling of John Ross becoming chief, it should have a date of when he died, thus ending his "reign" (the right word did not come to mind).
"John Ross became the chief of the tribe in 1828 and remained the chief until his death [in --(add date)]." If I knew the correct date, I would insert it. Cyberhawk93 15:53, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the year of death from John Ross (Cherokee chief).  — MediaMangler 18:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date needed 

message: Is there really a point to the "Notable Individuals who have identifiable Cherokee Ancestry" section? Sure, some of the people listed actually do have a Cherokee ancestor at some point, some probably don't, but in any case how was it relevant to their lives if they had a distant Cherokee ancestor? I think we should list people who are actually Cherokee, or have a Cherokee parent, or identify as Cherokee with lesser ancestry, or something along those lines. It is kind of pointless otherwise. Mad Jack O'Lantern 07:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable Individuals who have identifiable Cherokee Ancestry

message: Hi, I have added Diane Glancy to the "famous Cherokees" list.  I wasn't sure whether she is enrolled or not, so have put her in the "Notable Individuals who have identifiable Cherokee Ancestry" section for now.  Can anyone verify whether she is enrolled or not? Vizjim 15:41, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What's the name of the country music guitarist whose song "I'm an Indian outlaw" back in the 1990's stirred protests by Native Americans over the song was offensive or stereotype them as bandits?...and it turned out he was 1/8 Cherokee? Somebody please tell me the name, was it Billy or Willy? I can only remember it ended in McGrath. 207.200.116.139 22:03, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Diane Glancy

message: I have suggested that Cherokee#History be split to and expanded in a new article entitled History of the Cherokee (consistent with other "History of" titles.) This is for several reasons: 1) the section is relatively short and still needs a fair bit of development, 2) every group/nation/people (at least the significant ones) should have a separate article for their history, 3) it makes it easier to assess the quality and content of both articles. 24.126.199.129 05:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Split history section into article

message: Oops, I meant to comment on this, the start of the History section of the article:
"The Cherokee nation was unified from a society of interrelated city-states in the early 18th century under the "Emperor" Moytoy, with the aid of an unofficial English envoy, Sir Alexander Cumming. In 1730, Chief Moytoy of Tellico was agreed to be the "Emperor" by the Elector Chiefs of the principal Cherokee towns. "
I was under the impression that the title of Emperor given to Moytoy by this Englishman was, while an interesting development, somewhat of a joke.  Or at least -- the English considered Moytoy "emperor", whose word was taken as the word of all the Cherokee, but to the Cherokee, I think a better word for Moytoy's position might be "ambassador".  There may have been a brief spell of a few years during which other chiefs were more submissive to Moytoy, but it didn't last.  Later in Moytoy's life he was clearly not an emperor but just one of many head chiefs.  In fact, wasn't it Moytoy whose warriors fell into violent conflict with the Virginian army they were supposed to be assisting, in 1758, leading to the Anglo-Cherokee War?  Maybe that was a different Moytoy, but whoever it was, he was hardly treated as a paramount chief by the other chiefs during the war, as I understand it.
In other words, I think this sentence is wrong in saying "The Cherokee nation was unified...".  The English may have hoped it was, and acted as if it was, but it wasn't.  Or am I confused? Pfly 02:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Moytoy as Emperor?

message: This table used to be in the article. Probably lost to vandalism. Feel free to put it back if you want.
U.S. PopulationPopulation figures (rounded off) from Russell Thornton, American Indian Holocaust and Survival: A Population History Since 1492 (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1987), p. 115.; 1990 population figure from the Encyclopedia of North American Indians; 2000 population from a USA Today news story, which explains that the 2000 population figure increased so dramatically because of a greater effort to count everybody, and because multi-racial people were, for the first time, able to identify themselves as belonging to more than one group.	U.S. PopulationPopulation figures (rounded off) from Russell Thornton, American Indian Holocaust and Survival: A Population History Since 1492 (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1987), p. 115.; 1990 population figure from the Encyclopedia of North American Indians; 2000 population from a USA Today news story, which explains that the 2000 population figure increased so dramatically because of a greater effort to count everybody, and because multi-racial people were, for the first time, able to identify themselves as belonging to more than one group.
Year                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          	Population
1650                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          	22,000
1808                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          	13,000
1835                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          	21,500
1850                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          	16,000
1890                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          	28,000
1910                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          	31,500
1970                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          	66,000*
1980                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          	232,000*
1990                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          	308,132*
2000                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          	729,533*
*new counting methods used                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    	*new counting methods used
If this is readded, the 'new counting method' needs to be explained in context, otherwise it's a worthless chart. Also, citations should be used for the data sourcing.ThuranX 04:43, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's all there, Sherlock—that little footnote thingy is not just for looks. Ironically, the chart was about the only thing in the article that was fully sourced. —Kevin 07:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population history 

message: This sentence is found in the third paragraph of "Bands and naming", and I cannot comprehend it. Could someone please change the wording to make its meaning clearer?
Cherokee descendants sometimes hyphenated the name "Cherokee Americans" believed the US government destroyed documents and any legal proof, other than ancestry had identified them as "Indians" throughout the 20th century's federal census practice of racial categories. Kingturkey 09:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Cherokee American identity issue found its' way under the Wikipedia: List of controversial issues. Someone deleted the list of famous Cherokees and the story (since it was unsourced or perceived as myths) on the Cherokee American identity of many people not in tribal nations is taken done. I'm not happy about this, since to me to do that is based on censorship ("false lies") and opinionated attitudes ("conspiracy theory") to look down on a numerous Native American people. In history of Census racial categories, any white American who openly admits their "Indianness" is at risk of becoming a member of a racial minority group, a way to face discrimination and in some states, they would be treated unfairly as "colored people". Then it's been widely known and researched that many Census practices has deleted any mention of "Indianness" of tribal members, who are by legal definition are Native Americans. 63.3.14.1 16:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarify

message: How come the list was deleted? At least some famous Cherokee people (tribal leaders, artists, authors and celebrities) have some mention of Cherokee ancestry in their respective articles. Steven Tyler of Aerosmith and his daughter, Liv Tyler, an actress has personally claimed Cherokee ancestry. I'm gonna research that in biographical and fan club web sites, and any other famous Cherokee people on the web to verify their claims. I want to find out if the celebrities' Cherokee ancestry claims are true or myths concocted by a fan not knowing of their background like if it cared. Mike D 26 01:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We've removed and edited down the list of famous Cherokee a few times.  I think it is time for that again.  Here's what I propose: (1) We remove all but a couple names from the section now, (2) we demand any additions be cited and remove uncited additions, (3) if/when we've got a dozen or so names, we move them all to a list, banishing this problematic section from this article (hopefully). Smmurphy(Talk) 05:00, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is evidence on Gloria Steinem's husband, David Hale is a Cherokee Nation tribal member. Is it required to look at her article and find the source, then include the Steinem-Hale marriage and the sources in the Cherokee article? Mike D 26 12:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous Cherokee people list gone 

message: I'm not sure on historical evidence, but I copied and placed a deleted paragraph below. I haven't came to any evidence of Cherokee descendants in other countries except for the Mexican Cherokee nation or the fact Canada has a few thousand Cherokee descendants. The CNO recognizes tribal members in any country, but any documentation to verify the claim (facts or web pages), I'll restore it. I think we notify the CNO on further searches of "lost Cherokee" in Latin America, but let's make sure this is true at the first place.
<<<Celebrities who are either members of Cherokee tribal nations, or of Cherokee descent, are sometimes referred to as "Cherokee Americans". Some claims of actual Cherokee ancestry of certain celebrities are disputed by biographers and the very tribal nations. It's been said Cherokees live in other countries through historic migration, involvement in wars as U.S. troops, and close contact with European and North American countries (Canada, Great Britain, France, Spain and Latin America, notably of Mexico and Brazil). >>> Mike D 26 02:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed: Cherokees are a [[diaspora]] 

message: I have tagged this section for weasel words due to the use of such(see the 'citation needed' section) and the contentious nature of the press coverage of the subject. Yahya 04:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Along with the removal below, the Freedmen section was recently rewritten with quite a bit cut out, which you can see here.  Hopefully (for context) if any of the material here and below can be cited, we can put some of it back in. Smmurphy(Talk) 03:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cherokee Freedmen? How racist that you want no mention of Congoid/Capoid descended people of Cherokee extraction. You can't erase history, the scientific/genetic evidence is undeniable. Relir 08:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cherokee Freedmen

message: I noticed somebody had deleted this large chunk of text on the grounds that it was questionable and POV. I really don't know anything about the subject, so I'm putting it here in case anybody wants to argue with it.  Aelffin 12:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable content?