Talk:J. M. Coetzee

message: There is a ton of confusion out there about Coetzee's given second name. Most sources, though, say that he was born John Michael Coetzee and, later in life, changed it to John Maxwell Coetzee. Has he ever given a definitive statement about this? And shouldn't this be in the article? j.s.f. (talk) 17:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to be the case. Should add a mention of that, with a request for citation if you can't find a definitive one. Greenman (talk) 20:36, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: named laureate of the Nobel Prize in Literature for 2003, the fourth African to be so honoured.
: Is he really an ethnic African ?
:: Depends what you mean by that.  He was born in Africa, and his parents quite possibly were too.  However, he is ethnically of quite recent immigration to Africa (i.e. the past few centuries).  On the other hand, where to draw the dividing line is a judgment call.  Are Slavic peoples ethnically European?  They are from Europe, but their ancestors immigrated there only a dozen or so centuries ago. --Delirium 05:04, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)
A bit longer than a dozen centuries ago, as the fact that much of present day Eastern Germany was occupied by Slavs before the formation of the the Central European states can atest (likewise, Europe spans from the Atlantic to the Urals, and Slavs were certainly within these bounds, originating as Slavs in Central/East Central Europe (the exact stop is debatable). Ethnicity is a bogus concept anyway. But since we're on the topic, there was an interesting article about Coetzee today. He is vising Poland soon since apparently his great grandfather emigrated from Poland to South Africa in his late teens or something like that. --~~
I thought it was pronounced "coet-zee-uh"?
Wh
What about including pronunciation of the name in IPA or SAMPA? I thought the oe was like English oo (food) rather than u/oo (foot)...?
Wathiik 11:36, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Old comments

message: Do we really need an entire subheading containing a few short sentences saying he won the Nobel? And the Personal section also. Skinnyweed 02:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. I've integrated them into the main body. (Which, oddly, contains almost no mention of his fiction. Something I'll try and put right.) Barbara Osgood 22:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nobel Prize section 

message: Spells 'autobiographical' wrong. Skinnyweed 21:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed Yinon 00:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template spelling mistake - autobiographical 

message: Should Boyhood and Youth be under fiction? They are autobiographical recollections of his real life experiences but there are elements of fiction in terms of distance and narrative voice. On the other hand, don't all writers take certain liberties when writing their autobiography? But don't they also rely on personal experience in their fiction? AshcroftIleum 19:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps make a section Autobiographical like the template. Skinnyweed 19:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They are fictionalised biography.  In the essay on autobiography in Doubling the Point Coetzee specifically (if playfully) describes this genre as autrebiography.  They are novels about John Coetzee - a character overlapping but distinct from John Coetzee the man who is distinct again from J.M. Coetzee the writer.  In the same way Elizabeth Costello in Slow Man and the eponymous hero of the previous novel are overlapping but not necessarily concomitant charecters.  As such, they should either be renamed as "fictionalised biography" or incorporated into fiction, in my opinion. EdwardMackay 12:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fiction?

message: Removed this category as his first language is English ,  and apparently speaking Afrikaans as a first language (along with being of "european ancestry") is one of the few cireteria for classifiying someone as in this contested category. --Deon Steyn 09:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Afrikaner category 

message: What is the thinking behind designating Coetzee a modernist in the box at the top?  He evidently inherits very strongly from modernism, particularly Beckett, but is he (can he be) a modernist at his stage of history?  Postmodernist and postcolonialist offer other problems, but modernism can't be right? EdwardMackay 12:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Beckett is usually considered the last modernist, and I would argue that even in his late style he remains a modernist. Coetzee exists in a certain timelessness, in a sense writing as a footnote to Beckett and Kafka in his early work, and now displaying more of a debt to the 18th century. Postmodernism seems a useless term in any case because of the difficulty of designating an end to so-called modernism. I would call Coetzee a new-modernist. -FM (talk) 01:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modernism 

message: The source- http://www.eduskrypt.pl/na_polski_trop_naprowadzil_go_pradziad-info-1801.html is in Polish only. The news is from Polish Press Agency (PAP) info service (PAP - Nauka w Polsce). Kowalmistrz 19:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I've added the reference. Would it be possible for you to check that the text in the article attributed to the reference is correct? Cordless Larry (talk) 16:01, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In Boyhood he speaks of some of his relatives coming from Pomerania, but apparently being of German, not Polish extraction. --187.113.228.45 (talk) 04:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and a rough translation of the Polish reference suggests that the story about Polish relatives may have proved to be false. I'm going to remove it. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:10, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but where the Polish-language reference I've linked suggests his Polish origin may be false? I think also that what Coetzee wrote in "Boyhood" should not be a reference for us, becuase although we can in some way identify the book's main character with Coetzee himself, we can't do it unquestionable. Come on, it's just a book - a form of literary creation. What Coetzee wrote in Boyhood can't be treat as a reference about his origins, but the article I've linked you here (and I can find dozens of another reliable ones) is unqestionable for its authenticity (is not a fiction and can't be undermined, but the Boyhood's sentence surely can be). Additionally, the question of the demographic and social history of Poland and its lands and peoples is very complexed (see History of Poland and the Polish people) and indentifying and naming those people's ethnicity by today's customs is not right. In Pomerania during the times Baltazar Dubiel was born, there was formally no Poland as a state because it was occupied by Prussia. But the land was historically Polish since ever and was originally inhabited by the Polish people, descendants of mixed Slavic and German tribes. The Germans and Jews and some other minorities lived there also since ever, especially during the Prussian partitions, Germans and Germanised Polish people made up a significant minority. So, the people had not only mixed ethnic origins but also ethnic and cultural identities and were partially Polish and partially German or Prussian. In case of their immigration, the country from what they were coming, in that case was Prussia or the German Empire, was that what was written in the official country of departue's books and registries. All the people of Pomerania, Polish-speaking and identifying themselves Poles, German-speaking Poles, Polish-speaking Germans, German-speaking Polish Jews, Polish-speaking Jews, Lutherans, Catholics, etc., were counted as Prussian or German. Kowalmistrz (talk) 12:17, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that Boyhood is not a good source for this. When I put the Polish article into Google Translate, it seems to suggest rather contradictory accounts of whether the Polish connection is correct, but that is perhaps just because of the poor translation. Since you speak Polish, could you provide a brief summary of the article in English? Cordless Larry (talk) 15:33, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, the article is not based on this website's own work and informations but is a material purchased from the Polish Press Agency (Polska Agencja Prasowa, PAP), from its science news service called Nauka w Polsce (the Polish Science or Science in Poland literally) - it is mentioned as the source of the article on its bottom. As you know, that's what news agencies do - they sell information and news to other media all over the world. So, the source of the news that Coetzee has Polish roots and he mentioned that during his trip to Poland, is reliable. I googled many other articles on the web, including those published on the websites or online editions of top Polish media, that mention Coetzee's Polish connection and also call up the PAP sources. Here is some: http://ksiazki.wp.pl/tytul,Czy-JM-Coetzee-ma-polskie-korzenie,wid,7535,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=1bfb1&_ticrsn=3 (the article's title means Does Coetzee has Polish roots? and is published on Wirtualna Polska, a major Polish web portal. It is truly a much better and reliable reference than that we talk about. It says that during his trip to Poland in 2006 on the invitation of Znak, his Polish publisher, Coetzee showed the press a letter which he brought to Poland from his family archive and that was wrote by Baltazar Dubiel, his great-grandfather. The letter says that Baltazar Dubiel was a Pole from Czarnylas, a small village in the Greater Poland region (sic! - not Pomerania at all). He (Dubiel) mentions in this letter that he attended a seminary in Odolanów, a small city in the same county as Czarynals, and wanted to become a missionary (maybe that's why he finally settled in South Africa? - that's my part ;-)). But, as the article says, there was no seminary in Odolanów ever, so they (the people who arranged Coetzee's trip from the Znak publishing house and were quoted in the article) thinks Dubiel was writing about a parish school or something he attended. Moreover, after meeting with his readers in Kraków and Warsaw, Coetzee visited (!) the mentioned places - Czarnylas and Odolanów. At the end, there is also a local official from Czarnylas, Czesław Noskowicz, quoted. He said that they (the local government) would search for more information about the Dubiel family and Baltazar Dubiel's life in Poland and even suggested naming the local school after Coetzee. http://www.wprost.pl/ar/140524/Z-ziemi-polskiej-do-Nobla/?O=140524&pg=2 (this is an online version of the article published in Wprost, one of the leading Polish weekly newsmagazines. The article is about Nobel Prize laureates from around the world with Polish roots and connections. Among the mentioned laureates is Coetzee. It also says that the South African writer visited in 2006 Czarnylas and Odolanów, "where his great-grandfather went to school"). From reading the linked articles, we can find that Coetzee's trip to Czarnylas and Odolanów during his visit in Poland was his own initiative and was not arranged by the Znak publishing house which hosted the writer, because the quoted officials of the publisher did not know about the mentioned Dubiel's letter and anything about Coetzee's personal link to Poland before he showed the letter and informed the press. If you don't trust me, please write to another Polish-speaking wikipedians to confirm the meaning of the linked sourcesKowalmistrz (talk) 16:39, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There are many cases of overly enthusiastic claims regarding the origins of prominent people (and inventions and other stuff). I have not looked at the sources mentioned above, but a title like "Does Coetzee has Polish roots?" does not suggest the kind of verification or significance that would be required to record a fact here. Anyone like Coetzee is likely to have roots in several European countries, and there would need to be an encyclopedic reason to record that his great grandfather was from Poland (where did the other seven great grandparents come from?). Johnuniq (talk) 02:41, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you should read the linked articles and then make your opinion. The article titled "Does Coetzee has Polish roots?" answers the question from its title - yes, Coetzee has Polish roots and he revealed it during his stay in Poland and even showed to the public and the press the letter from his family archive stating the Polish background of Baltazar Dubiel. I did not hear anything about his other ancestors - does the fact that he showed so much interest in his Polish roots mean it is worth to mention? Kowalmistrz (talk) 12:08, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please make a proposal. What would suitable text say? There would need to be a reason to say that Coetzee showed an interest in his Polish ancestry. There would also need to be a reason to assert that Coetzee is part Polish in the article because of the issue regarding the other seven great grandparents that I mentioned above (perhaps Coetzee comes from half a dozen different places, and it does not make sense to list them; is there a reliable source suggesting that a particular ancestry influenced his work?). Johnuniq (talk) 12:27, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish origin 

message: I think the fact that JMC changed his citizenship and residence is important, and worth mentioning in the introduction.  Iterator12n  Talk  00:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He lived in Africa for many years. Why did he leave? It seems as though he tried to convince the public that Australia's excellence attracted him. It may be possible, however, that there was something about Africa that repelled him.Lestrade (talk) 13:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I think that this is now dealt with sufficiently in the article, following some recent editing. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:56, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citizenship 

message: Does anyone have any further information on the upcoming book Summertime?  An IP-address editor has added the book to the "Fictionalised autobiography / autrebiography" section.  Amazon UK has no content details other than publisher and publication date, yet "FantasticFiction" refers to it as a novel, as do a few other places.  It would be best to put it in its correct section. --Perry Middlemiss (talk) 01:40, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It now has its own page at Summertime (novel) since it was nominated for the Booker. It seems to be another semi-autobiographical novel. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:43, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Summertime'' 

message: I have just spent considerable time adding references to this article and improving the existing ones by employing citation templates. I now hope to expand the article. In particular, I think it needs a section describing Coetzee's novels and their main themes. I would appreciate help with this if anyone with a better knowledge of literature than me is able to assist. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:14, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article consolidation and expansion 

message: Is he also jewish?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.103.128.158 (talk) 23:06, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: By ancestry described on the page, evidently not. By religious affiliation, a web search discloses no evidence of this. Any such information published by a reputable source could be added to his biography here. -- Deborahjay (talk) 11:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish? 

message: Language is supposed to a major theme in his works. Have there been any studies on his eccentric personal relationship to language? He won't employ language to communicate with other humans unless it is written.Lestrade (talk) 00:21, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Language

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message: The second paragraph of this biography (ie almost a headline) has the above quotation which I feel makes too bold a statement, particularly the term 'inarguably'.
This quote is taken from an essay published by a freelance journalist/(mainly political) author, Richard Poplak, on a South African online news website.
In the same paragraph Poplak names Coetzee's novella "Life of Animals" when the book is actually called "The Lives of Animals".
The essay, published on 3rd January 2013, is a critique of a speech Coetzee made at a graduation ceremony at Wits University on 10th December 2012 where Coetzee was awarded an honorary Doctorate in Literature. In his speech Coetzee appeals for more men to go into teaching, particularly primary schooling. Poplak is critical of the speech and suggests that the man may be past his prime, blathering, a misogynist and implies paedophilic undertones.
A more balanced report of the speech and the actual text is availalable here: http://bookslive.co.za/blog/2012/12/10/honorary-doctorate-acceptance-speech-jm-coetzee-makes-the-case-for-men-in-primary-education/
As Poplak it not a particulary noteworthy literary figure or commentator, and his essay was designed to be provocative and controversial, I do not feel that his quotation deserves to be in the main heading for Coetzee's biography.
Quoting "greatest living" is also time-stamping as other authors, alive in 2013 and possibly eligible for such a plaudit, may now have died.
Although better known in South Africa than the rest of the English-speaking world one cannot deny (but not inarguably) that Coetzee may be a candidate for such a description but there are no references to such a claim apart from Poplak's essay.
Martin Amis, potentially one of the "greatest living", in an interview dismissed Coetzee as "having no talent" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/7080509/Martin-Amis-criticises-Nobel-writer-JM-Coetzee-for-having-no-talent.html - but this will not be placed at the top of Coetzee's biography.Andrew ranfurly (talk) 15:27, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not familiar with Richard Poplak, but if what you say is correct then I agree that we shouldn't be giving this quote the prominence the lede gives it. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:53, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Regardless, it is just one person's opinion, and must go.  One person, no matter who they are, does not get to state that their opinion is "inarguable".  If God Himself descended from the heavens and proclaimed "Black is not white", anyone could argue with Him. Fwiw, my opinion is that there's no such word as "inarguable/-ly", the accepted word being "unarguable/-ly", but what do I know?  -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:23, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It's OK to report and opinion as long as it's attributed though, isn't it? Cordless Larry (talk) 06:38, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "inarguably the most celebrated and decorated living English-language author" - seriously? 

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message: I think he should be described as one of these in the lead (per WP:ETHNICITY). --Thedarkknightli (talk) 15:38, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "South African" vs "South African-born Australian"