Talk:Northern Ireland/Archive 5

message: The article states :
The population of Northern Ireland was estimated as being 1,710,300 on 30 June 2004. In the 2001 census, 53.1% of the Northern Irish population were Protestant, (Presbyterian, Church of Ireland, Methodist and other Protestant denominations), 43.8% of the population were Roman Catholic, 0.4% Other and 2.7% none.[3][4]
Using the CAIN data    
                       Pres            20.7 %
                       CoI             15.3 %
                       Meth             3.5 %
                       Other Christian  6.1 %
                       Totalling       45.6 % 
The total response was (100-13.88) =   86.1 %
Giving a total non-RC christian pop of  (45.6/86.1) = 53%
Am I doing something wrong, or are we counting all non-RC christians as protestant? 86.12.249.63 14:03, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's right. Every Christian who isn't Catholic is counted as Protestant, which over-inflates the Protestant figure by several per cent. The government do this with their statistics too. See comments at Talk:Northern_Ireland/Archive03#More_on_religious_breakdown for more information. -- zzuuzz (talk) 14:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, it probably isn't an entirely unreasonable assumption that they are protestant (at least for statistical purposes), and if they are the official figures, then I guess that is what should be used. Fasach Nua 14:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a very philosophical view, but I would disagree. To call non-denominational Christians, or people who reply "Believe in God" or "Christian", or "Greek Orthodox", to call them Protestants is seriously flawed. I would like to see this statistic de-bunked in the article (it also relates to community background, and not current religion). The ONS have a note about it here btw. -- zzuuzz (talk) 15:02, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Surely if someone is Christian, but not Catholic, they are by definition Protestant? Protestantism gives "any Christian denomination which is not Roman Catholic or Orthodox Christian" as a definition. In addition, the note zzuuzz references above states "Protestant includes 'Other Christian' and 'Christian related'". Given that Protestants are Christians who are not part of the Catholic Church (they "protest" against it), "Catholicism" stands in contrast to "Protestantism". Martin 15:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an interesting point, and perhaps you are right. I understand this is one of the "commonly given definitions". There does however seem to be a body of churches which are defined as Protestant, and some where there is some debate whether they are Protestant or not (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons (#=1414)), or Religious Society of Friends (#=749), and some others like that if I recall). Also Orthodox, and "believe in God" are included in the Protestant figure, which is plainly an inaccurate assumption. There were 94 'Other Christian' groups with ten or more members in the census. If anyone wants a look for themselves the excel file is here. There don't appear to be any decent secondary sources which elaborate on this, so it's a bit moot. -- zzuuzz(talk) 00:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't want to open a can of worms here or prolong this debate, but I don't think the term "Protestant" is technically correct to describe all non-RC christian faiths. Indeed many non-RC christians consider themselves not Protestant per se, but as non-Roman Catholic, reformed Catholic, etc. The Anglican Church, for example, professes the Nicene Creed as it was originally agreed and believes in "One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church", which would suggest it considers that it is either a part of a broader Catholic Church, or is the one true Catholic Church. In any case, I don't personally think the precise definition matters too much and would suggest that, in particular for this article and for want of a better term (presumably one should avoid coining new terms in order to avoid confusion), non-RC Christian churches be referred to as Protestant as that seems to be the convention when discussing matters related to Northern Ireland.  ELBBT82.45.213.202 17:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Demographics and politics

message: Is there any reliable way of working this out? Derry Boi 16:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religious breakdown of each county. 

message: Just sectionising this, easier to follow. This is some marathon. I don't agree with you Martin, but I will say this - you are one stubborn wicket keeper! regards (Sarah777 20:19, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am really torn here, between protesting at the wrongness of "There is a consensus to remove it - just because you dont like it is not good enough reason to accept the status quo" (showing misunderstanding of what WP:Consensus and status quo mean, as the status quo was to have the banner, and there was no consensus to change it), and the arguably quite good result of not having a flag at all. I dislike the overproliferation of flags on Wikipedia. Should the flags now be removed from Scotland, England and Wales? Or should we display a notice that "Northern Ireland has no official flag at present"? If that is to be the new consensus, it could be different from what the straw poll indicated I suppose. I personally won't exercise my admin privileges on this one as I have a POV. --Guinnog 23:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I reinserted the flag and the crest this morning. The debate is is not over yet. There is no consensus to remove them, so as Guinnog states the status quo remains until the issue is resolved. Again, my feeling is that some sort of mediation is required. I don't think Wikipedia:Requests for mediation will solve it, so Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration is the best bet. Stu ’Bout ye! 07:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted your edit, Stu.  There dosent need to be concensus to remove POV.  As for going to arbitration on the issue, we were discussing that above to see if there was any need to have the Union Banner instead of a national banner as none of the England, Scotland or Welsh infoboxes use it.--padraig3uk 09:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You haven't established that there is any POV being displayed Padraig.--ZincBelief 09:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, and removing the flag/crest is itself POV. I'm not sure what you're saying about arbcom? Stu ’Bout ye! 09:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: POV, lets see you have a symbol used by Loyalist extremists, and display it in a prominent position in the infobox of the main article on Northern Ireland, giving the impression that it was the Offical or de-facto flag of the state when in fact it hasn't been officaly used for 35yrs, has no status at all under British Law.--padraig3uk 09:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: There have been a number of votes on this and the majority voted to remove the symbols from the infobox, not that concencus is needed to remove POV from articles.--padraig3uk 09:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Lets note that all flags are used by extremist groups in Ireland as a whole. However, all flags are also used for other non violent purposes. The Red Hand of Ulster is used by Ulster Rugby with no attempt to glorify terrorism. There are no protests associated with it during matches. I think the use we want to see here, (of the banner) with appropriate text notes, is not glorifying terrorism either. It appears to me to be a responsible, non political usage. I don't see why there is a continued argument that it is marking the article as some sort of Loyalist propoganda. Point me to another flag that Northern Ireland uses, I don't know of one. Northern Ireland is not just a political entity, it is also a sporting entity. As a sporting entity it is represented by the banner. I am really baffled by your assertion that using the banner is giving the article (or the infobox) a POV, and you have still not adequately explained what point of view that is. I think this is a issue for arbitration now, as it is clearly not going to be sorted out by the wikipedians editing this article. --ZincBelief 10:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Ulster rugby team use a modified flag not the UB. Once again I would stated that you are missing the point of this discussion - this is about what is the current official flag of NI. The UB is not the current official flag of NI therefore should not be in the infobox, please see the Flag of Northern Ireland article for further detail - the UB should be in the article and should be fully explained but it should be in the infobox - as Gunniog suggests, there should be a white space with a link leading to the Flag of Northern Ireland article and a note stating that there is no current official flag.--Vintagekits 10:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't say the Ulster Rugby team did use the UB. I am having a discussion with Padraig about POV, why can't I do that? He is arguing that it shouldn't be there because it is POV. Now you, VintageKits, appear to have written that the UB should be and shouldn't be in the infobox, could you clarify what you actually meant please.--ZincBelief 10:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: read what I wrote! I never said you did say that the Ulster Rugby team use the UB. I said they didnt - they use a flag of St. Patrick defaced by a red hand. The reason it is POV to put the flag tin the infobox is because the info box is for the flag of that country and the UB is no longer that.--Vintagekits 10:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: VintageKits I did read what you wrote, that's why I asked you a question about it. You state something about the Ulster Rugby comment that was completely irrelevent, and I couldn't understand why. I was talking about emblem usage that was non political, in the context of a POV discussion with Padraig. You diverted that randomnly to talk about something else for no apparant reason. --ZincBelief 10:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: ZincBelief, the Ulster Banner is the former flag of the Northern Ireland Government that was disbanded by the British government in 1972, for that reason the flag is part of the history of Northern Ireland and why it is included within the main article along with the former coat of arms from that time.  In todays Northern Ireland the Ulster Banner is used by Loyalist extremist groups like the UVF/LVF and their supporters, it has no offical use. As for the point on sporting bodies using the flag, this is not an article on sport in N Ireland, it is the main article on that state/county, and the infoboxs are intended to convey basic info about that place, government, capital etc, it is not the place to display historical flags.--padraig3uk 10:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Padraig, please give the full list of people using the UB. You are presenting a biased argument. You accept surely that it is officially used in sport. This article contains information not just about politics, for example, rainfall is not political. I cannot see your argument as anything but contrived. What POV do you believe the Flag, with explanatory text, gives to the infobox and how. Do you really believe the infobox, as it stood promoted terrorism? --ZincBelief 10:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A list of who?.  The symbol may be used by some sporting bodies but that dosen't convey any status on the flag, this is not a article on sport in N Ireland.  The use of the flag in the infobox is promoting the belief that it has some status in Northern Ireland, I think you fail to understand the purpose of infoboxs in articles.--padraig3uk 11:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The two largest sporting organisations in NI do not use the UB - the GAA and the IFA do not use the UB - its is also banned from government buildings. Its POV.--Vintagekits 11:58, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a blatant lie blatantly wrong. The IFA do use the Ulster Banner as referenced by both the FIFA and UEFA web sites. beano 23:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you do not retract that comment then I will report you for breach of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA - I am not a liar! FIFA and UEFA may use the UB but the IFA nor the GAA use it. Get your facts straight and les of the abuse. If I do not get a retraction and an apology then I will be reporting you for that comment.--Vintagekits 23:47, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Well VintageKits. What is the point of view you think having the flag with explanatory text represents? Can you state it in a sentence? Perhaps there is more than one point of view it represents? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ZincBelief (talk • contribs) 12:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again I think you have failed to grasp the issue that is being discussed. The infobox is for the current official page, therefore to put the UB in the info box is a POV and not fact. If it is not the current official flag then it should not be in the infobox. Its pretty simple really!--Vintagekits 12:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Placing the flag in the infobox does not mark it as the official flag, especially when explanatory text is included to say that this was the former official flag. What on earth are you talking about Vintagekits?--ZincBelief 12:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mind your tone and remember WP:CIVIL - putting the UB in the info box is tant amount to showing it as having official status as the flag in the info box of other countries would have official status. The UB does not have any official status since the 1970's and therefore should not be in the infobox.--Vintagekits 13:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Cka4004, yes Northern Ireland is part of the UK and under the laws of the UK the Ulster banner has no legal status for the past 35yrs, it is not flown from Government buildings - local council offices are not classed as government buildings -  As for the other home nations they have national flags recognised in law, Northern Ireland dosent. --padraig3uk 12:57, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See here: "The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland". So I see the debate as whether the Ulster Banner remains with the proviso underneath, or is replaced with the official Union Flag. Stu ’Bout ye! 13:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No one is ignoring that quote - however my learned Lords interpretation of the legislation is not quote correct and his appraisal does not supersed the law. What is correct is the UF is the only flag that is legalled used in the situation being discussed but it does not solely represent NI and only represents NI as a consituant part of the UK much like the EU flag does for its member countries.--Vintagekits 13:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Stu, the usage of the Union Jack would surely be quite strange, as it doesn't exclusively represent Northern Ireland. One could argue for the European Union flag or the United Nations flag on the same basis as the Union Jack, couldn't one? The Ulster Banner is the only official flag to have exclusively represented the area, doing so for nearly 25% of its existance. Strangely enough, the main article still describes it as still the de-facto flag for Northern Ireland, seemingly adding weight to its readmittance.  --ZincBelief 13:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It represents the UK as a whole, but also NI individually. Zinc, as you'll see from the last vote my view is that The Ulster Banner should remain with the explanatory text underneath. However if it is decided that it should be removed then it should be replaced with the Union Flag. Stu ’Bout ye! 13:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your right the UB does have some de facto status - most notably because it is used by FIFA and the Commonwealth Games (however they are hardly the last bastions of Irish nationalism) - saying that I do believe that this status as a de facto flag by these organisations is negated by the fact that the flag is rejected be much of the populus.--Vintagekits 13:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Vintagekits, the Lord's interpretation of the law is entirely accurate; the Ulster Banner has no official status. That's a given. Why should we ignore the de jure flag of Northern Ireland in favour of the historical one some people use as a de facto flag? The only way to be NPOV is to use the flag that the UK government have legislated to be used. This seems entirely fair, and if someone doesn't like it, they can take it up with their MP. It's not for us to decide what NI's flag is. Martin 17:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Me too. There is no valid reason why the Union Flag cannot be used. Stu ’Bout ye! 09:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not me three! the reason has been clearly outlined.--Vintagekits 09:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where? Stu ’Bout ye! 11:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Flag Consensus Ignored (3)

message: The British Isles template has had some new functionality added arising from a discussion on the Ireland talk page.  The template can now be either inserted on a page as usual (i.e. ) or, depending on what the community of each article agree to, another title can be given to the template on a page-by-page basis (e.g. ).
The consensus reached on the Ireland page was "Great Britain, Ireland & the Isle of Man", this is also being used on the Republic of Ireland page. On 'joint' pages, such as British Isles or British Isles (terminology), "The British Isles - or Great Britain, Ireland & the Isle of Man" is the being used at present.
I'm not involving myself in this business any further than just to let people know about it. If the community here want to change the title then the possibility exists.
(By way of a short explanation, the term "Great Britain, Ireland & the Isle of Man" was chosen on the Ireland page because it was the most politically neutral while still encompassing everyone that the term "British Isles" does.)
--sony-youth 20:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  British Isles template 

message: If anybody feels like replacing the map in the infobox with :Image:Europe location N-IRL.png, feel free to do it. — Alex (T|C|E) 06:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I must say that is a really nice map, very nicely done. Unfortunately I don't think it would go well in the infobox resized down to a suitable size, Northern Ireland and the rest would be quite small and awkward to see. I don't know what others think of this. Ben W Bell talk 08:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I guess we could stick it elsewhere in the article, perhaps below the infobox? -- Pauric (talk-contributions) 20:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also, it would look much nicer coloured green!! (Sarah777 23:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Image:Europe location N-IRL.png]] 

message: I think these should be reworked. 
The Towns and villages section is just a list. The Towns in Northern Ireland, Villages in Northern Ireland and List of places in Northern Ireland links should be moved to the See also section at the end, and the section removed.
The Places of interest section is again just a list. If the article is going to progress to a FA, lists are frowned upon. Some entries on the list are already covered elsewhere in the article, eg Mountains of Mourne and Lough Neagh. So there's no problem removing them. The sentences on them could be expanded though. Entries on the list that aren't covered elsewhere can be covered elsewhere. 
And lastly the History section should be first as far as I know, ie after the lead. Thoughts? Stu ’Bout ye! 13:26, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree Astrotrain 13:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made most of the changes. Someone might want to have a quick scan to see if I've mucked anything up. I've left the Towns and villages sections for now, as it kinda ties in with the previous two sections. It should be replaced with text, rather than a list, but I'm not sure of the best format. Stu ’Bout ye! 15:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe instead of having a "Places of Interest" section, we could consider a tourism section? That would cover many of the items mentioned in the list and would enable us to work them into the article as prose. Martin 16:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've deleted the Places of interest section. The contents have either been moved to another section, Geography for example, or deleted as they were already mentioned elsewhere. Stu ’Bout ye! 16:37, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Towns and villages, Places of interest and History sections.

message: "Can we get away from questioning people's POV? I believe there have been some legitimate points raised on both sides, and these have not been addressed. Saying that people want to remove the Ulster Banner because they are Nationalists, or they want to keep it because they are Unionists is all very interesting I'm sure, but it has absolutely no bearing on the issue in question. Indeed, appeal to motive is a logical fallacy. Let's deal with the issues raised, instead of bickering about how POV everyone else is. Every single editor has a POV, but if we assume good faith and try to reach a consensus (and a consensus is more than the tyranny of the majority), it doesn't have to be to the determinant of the article. Martin 23:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV and Ireland-related Articles 

message: Why do some articles on countries include a religion section and others not? Is this a matter of political correctness? More importantly, where is the section about Northern Ireland's religion? One of the main causes behind so much terrorism and "freedom - fighting" as the IRA would call it has occured is due to historical discrimination of Catholics in favor of Anglicans and to this day, Protestants and Catholics do not get along very well today. And no, I don't need to cite that fact, unless you've put a cardboard box on your heads every time BBC news came on from 1990's - 2000's .Tourskin 02:18, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, you would need to give reference for that statement. But I'll help you by informing you that its patently incorrect. Obviously you have never lived in Northern Ireland. Also, you have a very simplistic view of history. -- Mal 01:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ehh..what about religion? 

message: Why is there no mention whatsoever in this article that Northern Ireland has its own legal system - Northern Ireland law - which is separate from English law (also applicable in Wales) or Scots law? I would have thought that that was rather fundamental information. -- Mais oui! 11:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not add it, if its sourced? Also, I removed an unsourced claim. Does anybody else have sourced material about how outsiders view the people of Northern Ireland? Thanks --Tom 12:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Northern Ireland law]] 

message: I've opened a straw poll on support for a change to the title of the Republic of Ireland article and related articles. --sony-youthtalk 21:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Straw poll of Republic of Ireland title change 

message: *Northern Ireland has been for many years the site of a violent and bitter ethno-political conflict between those claiming to represent Nationalists, who are predominantly Catholic, and those claiming to represent Unionists, who are predominantly Protestant.[4]
I think it would be better to write
* Northern Ireland has been for many years the site of a violent and bitter ethno-political conflict, which is alternatively portrayed as being between those claiming to represent either Nationalists and Unionists, or Catholics and Protestants.
If we must use words like "claiming" (or portrayed) then I'd be happy with either version. What is important is that not just one side are represented as "claiming" anything unless the other is - the word may well be accurate but is definitely pejorative. (Sarah777 01:29, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I read the original wording as both sides had people claiming to represent them, but I take your point. For many the conflict is blurred along the lines of religion or politics - is there a difference? --ZincBelief 11:12, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The religious sect pf the conflicting parties is incidental, especially when the extremists on both sides have committed acts that are contrary to the tenets of the Christian faith and which have been condemned by the respective religious leaders.  Nationalist happen to be of one sect and Unionists of the other, but the conflict is primarily an ethnic one. (Though the sectarian aspect is responsible for an apartheid education system that serves to preserve difference rather than reconciliation).  It seems to me that the present text is the correct one and the proposed change is not accurate. --Red King 17:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leading text 

message: I heard on the news right now, that tonight, Great Britain will offically not rule Northen Ireleand any more. Any have any sources on that? →AzaToth 06:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The NI Assembly has been reactivated if that's what you mean. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6493691.stm Watch this space, as they say. --Guinnog 07:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Given history, I'd say give it a week, two at the outside. Maybe we'll all be surprised and maybe the Danish Air Force will turn up. Ben W Bell talk 07:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  i always wondered what the D in DUP stood for </joke> --ZincBelief 09:23, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I stand corrected, it does indeed appear that the Danish Air Force has been invited to a display in Northern Ireland. I am shocked. Maybe there is a potential for a future after all. Ben W Bell talk 12:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separation? 

message: Hello fellow editors. A straw poll has opened today (27th March 2007) regarding the use of flags on the United Kingdom place infoboxes. There are several potential options to use, and would like as many contrubutors to vote on which we should decide upon. The straw poll is found here. If joining the debate, please keep a cool head and remain civil. We look forward to seeing you there. Jhamez84 11:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh! Looks like Westminster will overrule Stormont after all :) --sony-youthtalk 07:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Well the decision was that no flags be used in the infoboxs.--padraig3uk 22:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not enough for consensus though. I still think the current usage, with the note that these are ex-symbols, is very non political. In so much as Northern Ireland has a flag, it is this. Northern Ireland only exists as a sporting country, and this is the flag it uses for sporting events. --ZincBelief 22:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think 23-5 qualifies as consensus. (Sarah777 23:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Where did those numbers come from, A stands at 14 at the moment, a little behind D, 17. B has 1. It looks like a revert war to me still. Perhaps we can a situation where the Ulster banner only displays at weekends.--ZincBelief 23:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look at the link in the first post of this topic section.--padraig3uk 23:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, seems I missed this poll. I was looking at the poll on this discussion page. Well I will miss the flag, I would love to have it on display at weekends in true comedy fashion though.--ZincBelief 11:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Such a poll has indeed been carried out, it was pointed to here and a consensus does indeed seem to have been reached in an overwhelming fashion. It's not my choice but time for them to go. Ben W Bell talk 07:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually looking at it again it would seem that the poll was for places only, and not for the actual country articles. Scotland, England and Wales still retain their flags. Ben W Bell talk 16:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox flag straw poll 

message: Someone replaced the entire NI article with the single word "poops"; that was reverted and then user User:Psyche825 reverted the whole article back to "poops" - 'using popups':
(Revert to revision 118424627 dated 2007-03-28 02:25:14 by 75.67.23.163 using popups)
How does this happen? (Sarah777 02:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Poops/Pop Ups

message: The main article is now locked. Should we seek mediation or arbitration to resolve the dispute? Or is this an indication that one has already been chosen?--ZincBelief 14:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I asked that the article be protected at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. The admin has protected the current version, which is incorrect. The last status quo version (with the flag/crest in place) should have been protected. Stu ’Bout ye! 14:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that protection is not an endorsement of a current version I don't see why, but I shall have a read around to see what makes you think so.--ZincBelief 14:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: see The Wrong Version. Protection is an indication that there has been an Edit war, nothing more. -- zzuuzz(talk) 14:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not saying he's endorsing it, but the status quo version has existed for over a year. Stu ’Bout ye! 14:51, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No it hasn't this dispute has been going on for months, twice the vote was to remove the Ulster Banner but you just refuse to accept any decision you don't agree with.--padraig3uk 14:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The question is how to resolve the dispute. --ZincBelief 15:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We're going round in circles. Mediation or Arbcom I think. Stu ’Bout ye! 15:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My vote would be Arbcom. It's not really terribly mediatable.--ZincBelief 15:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mine too. I have a feeling Arbcom may reject it for not having been to mediation though. Stu ’Bout ye! 15:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Either, but you will find that NPOV and fact will win and the Ulster Banner will not be in the infobox, now stu if you want to propose that all the UK infoboxs are altered to include the Union Banner along with each national flag if one exists, then you are free to start that debate about the template, that seems to be your prefered option.--padraig3uk 15:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure you can predict an Arbcom decision. They'll probably want to make their own minds up. Again, the Union Flag represents the UK as a whole yes, but has specific official status in NI and represention of NI. The Union Flag isn't my preferred option by the way. Stu ’Bout ye! 15:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I thought it was, didn't you say in the debate on the vote that if the Ulster was removed then the Union Banner would have to replace it.--padraig3uk 15:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bit confused about your wording? If the Ulster Banner is removed then the Union Flag will have to replace it. Stu ’Bout ye! 07:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I mixed that up abit, but you knew what I meant.--padraig3uk 08:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the block is fine. Current Status Quo (for 2 months) is no flag. The notion of a protection block being used to re-insert a PREVIOUS version is silly, and would imply the block favours one pov in the dispute. padraig3uk I confess I have no idea what you are trying to say either. (Sarah777 16:47, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Protection Racket

message: There is a dispute about whether or not the infobox should contain a flag.16:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sony, this space is for editors to comment in who have no previous interest in the article. --ZincBelief 13:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It is already included in the main article.--padraig3uk 13:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: *Good point well made.--Vintagekits 12:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Comment:Infobox 

message: It is very clear that the article should not be unblocked as it will lead to an immediate resumption of an edit war. We really must look for a Third Way (as the British and NI Prime Minister would say!). I suggest (1) The Assembly logo; (2) failing agreement to that the EU flag, which I think no reasonable person can object to. 
Look at it - beautiful, is it not? (Sarah777 21:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What has a EU flag got to do with Northern Ireland, who is only a member of the EU through the UK.--padraig3uk 22:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  "What has a EU flag got to do with Northern Ireland, who is [] a member of the EU []." Is that not a tad oxymoronic? You make my case!(Sarah777 23:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Sarah777, why not suggest the UN Flag as well, Northern Ireland is not a seperate member of the EU in its own right, its membership comes through the UK as a whole.--padraig3uk 23:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes P, you have already said that. The UN Flag suggestion is worth considering though. Perhaps very appropriate in the circumstances. And IT'S nicer than the local flags too! (Sarah777 23:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: They are clearly more inclusive. Thus more representative of the NI population as a whole. Obviously. (Sarah777 01:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We're not here to be inclusive though. What if I were a euro-skeptic, and so resented the use of the EU flag? Would that be grounds for not using it? Martin 03:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Union Flag is inclusive and covers the entirety of the NI poulation. NI is part of the UK. Some may not like it but this is the simple truth of it. Ben W Bell talk 10:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So is the EU flag and the UN flag - howeer none of the three specifically represent NI and therefore should not be in the info box.--Vintagekits 10:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it's arguable that the UK one is as it's a direct flag of the country and state of the UK, but we all know the arguments for and against this and I wasn't suggesting we necessarily use it, just pointing out that the UK flag is inclusive of the people in NI. Ben W Bell talk 10:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm failing to see any way out of this. We seem to be in an irresistible  force/immovable object situation. All "third ways" are rejected by BOTH sides. Never thought I'd agree with DJEgan, but this IS very very silly and I occasionally regret my part in starting it. I guess reacting to "abuse" without thinking FIRST is part of the problem. I still believe that "no flag" is the best solution - but I'm not going to go to war over it. (Sarah777 14:00, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If there is going to be flag it can only be Union Flag as it is the only offical flag of the province as per the British Government however I see no wikipedia poliy indicating that there should be a flag in the infobox so I see nothing wrong with the current set up. --Barryob  entretien 23:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I love the page as is.  Let it stay locked as long as it can.  "Currently without a National Flag" is awesome.  This is a little ridiculous, the EU?  The UK?  The UN?  NI has no individual flag, hasn't for years.  When they get around to designating one, put it up.--Patrick 18:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Northern Ireland does have a flag. It has had a flag for years - its the Flag of Northern Ireland. Until a new flag of Northern Ireland has been designed and implemented, the current flag of Northern Ireland should be used to distinguish Northern Ireland from other regions. --Mal 19:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This would be the "Flag of the Former Government of Northern Ireland (1953-1972)"? Under whose authority does it "have a flag"?  Martin 19:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  Under whose authority does Wales have a flag? Or Scotland? Or England even? The only flag that represents Northern Ireland, as a unique region, is the Flag of Northern Ireland. That the former government of Northern Ireland no longer exists (and therefore obviously cannot use the flag) is irrelevant. The flag of Northern Ireland represents Northern Ireland, ironically enough(!) To deny this fact is to enter a world of Newspeak. Just because any given fact may be undesirable or unpleasant to some, doesn't negate the fact that it remains a fact. --Mal 19:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mal, the Ulster banner is not the flag of Northern Ireland, its use is POV.--padraig3uk 19:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  Padraig, the Northern Ireland flag is indeed the flag of Northern Ireland. Its use is fact. --Mal 19:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mal, if that is the case can you point out under which Law or statue of British Law it is under, because the British Government disolved the Northern Ireland House of Commons and its Flag in 1972/3.--padraig3uk 20:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Mal, just because some people use it as the NI Flag (which is not in dispute), it doesn't mean that it *is* Northern Ireland's flag. Some people call the Westminster clock "Big Ben", but that doesn't mean that its name *is* Big Ben, does it? Martin 20:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mal last year you state that the flag was defunct and unofficial on your self created User:Setanta747/Northern Ireland page, has the flags status changed with the year?. --Barryob  Vigeur de dessus 06:13, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Should Remain Locked

message: OK, my point for agreeing with the edit request seems to have been lost in the issue of restoring the flag or not. As a new edit request, I don't want to restore the flag, but to make an edit to remove Currently without a National Flag from the infobox's native_name field. This is the only edit I wish to make and should be seen as a seperate issue as to whether or not there should be a flag/coat of arms in the infobox. The code is an artificial insertion to the infobox, looks ugly and is unnecessary whether it is true or not. --sony-youthtalk 08:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again I Disagree (with edit request), as there is no flag of NI there needs to be a clear direction in the infobox as to why. The current method is the best way of doing that imo.--Vintagekits 09:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Agree. If the article is to remain locked for the time being, then the current text should go. Stu ’Bout ye! 09:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: *Comment, I have no problem with a Admin removing the text in question from the infobox, as long as the protection is not removed, In fact if possible I would like to see the protection placed only on the infobox, with the rest of the article un-protected to allow editors to edit it..--padraig3uk 09:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Comment, I could remove it but I feel that I shouldn't as I've been involved in discussions on this page and I don't think it would be non-involved, unless there was a complete consensus on that point. Ben W Bell talk 11:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The substance of the text IS the substance of the dispute - however, it was added AFTER the page was protected by a 3rd party. I don't think that any of the editors involved in the dispute would have thought it okay to put "CURRENTLY WITHOUT A NATIONAL FLAG" in big letters (literally, using the <BIG> tag) in the infobox. Could we just have it back to how it was at the time of being protected? --sony-youthtalk 13:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have requested that editor who changed the infobox to remove that part; let's wait to see if that editor is willing to do so. CMummert · talk 14:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool. Best idea all round. --sony-youthtalk 14:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually imo the current version is the correct version as per the discussion and concensus on the talk page.--Vintagekits 14:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The version at being protected still has this text: "Northern Ireland has no current National Flag See: Northern Ireland flags issue" - just no in a more respectable font size. --sony-youthtalk 15:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The infobox has now been reverted to the version of what was there when the article was protected, is everyone happy with that.? --padraig3uk 15:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For the timebeing yes, it will do until the wider issue is resolved. Stu ’Bout ye! 15:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like we made a mistake with the versions and that text had already been added when the article was protected, as a result the user who made the change didn't actually add in anything, it just appeared a bit more pronounced. I apologise for my involvement in this mistake, the text was added in earlier and wasn't anything to do with the altering admin. Ben W Bell talk 16:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request 2

message: Now that the issue above is sorted can we now find a solution, so that we can have the article un-protected and we can get on with improving the article.--padraig3uk 15:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure how we are going to arrive at a solution. There are valid arguments for and against each of the possible outcomes, namely using the Ulster Banner with an explanation of its status below the flag, using the Union Flag also with some kind of explanation below, or using nothing. We've all made our points time and time again, and I don't see that anything new has been added in a while. If, as it as been been suggested, that this is unmediatable and Arbcom will reject it as a content dispute, where do we go from here? Stu ’Bout ye! 15:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Well any option that includes having the Ulster Banner in the infobox is not going to work, as it is POV.  I don't see any valid reason for using the Union Banner unless it was agreed that it is used in the England, Scotland and Welsh infoboxes as well, along with their National Flags, with N Ireland being blank, and I can't seeing concensus being agreed on that.  So the only option I see working is to leave things as they are, with or without the current wording.--padraig3uk 15:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I could state the arguments against your two points again Padraig, but as I said before they've already been made ad nauseam. Stu ’Bout ye! 16:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I say either the Ulster Banner (with explanatory text) or nothing at all (with explanatory text), as we have now. The Union Jack would seem to be the worst of both worlds. --Guinnog 16:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Solution

message: I am who suggested to User:Mysid change the template. Someone have created a Infobox only for Northern Ireland and it was redundant. I only changed from Template:Infobox UK N-Ireland to a general country Template:Infobox Country, without change nothing in content, as I made in others UK constituent countries (England, Wales and Scotland).
So, I suggest to modify the Infobox here and in the future request to admin move to the article. Guilherme Paula 00:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Altered flag issue text.--padraig3uk 00:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Another suggestion for flag text. NI has a national flag, it's the UK's flag. What it is lacking is a regional flag or unique flag or a flag representing Northern Ireland as a distinct entity. I'm not sure what the best wording exactly is but to say it has no national flag is just incorrect. beano 10:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Beano the Union Banner is not a national flag, it represents a Union of Different Nations, each of which has its own National Flag, except Northern Ireland.--padraig3uk 10:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's highly POV. Aside from the fact that I'm not sure the English flag has any legal standing (I stand to be corrected) getting into the definitions of nation is a grey area.  The UK is in the United Nations though, so it's fairly reasonable to say its a nation. Besides, if your argument that NI is not a nation was accepted, why would there be a need to say there was no national flag? beano 10:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Is Northern Ireland a nation? I'm not sure of the definition, but I presume looking at the united nations, that it is not a nation, it is a region within a nation with finite political autonomy. NI has no regional flag, or no official regional flag. Semantics ahoy.--ZincBelief 11:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No Northern Ireland is not a Nation but England, Scotland and Wales are, therefore the Union Banner represents them all as a Union, including Northern Ireland, each of them has its own National Flag, Northern Ireland dosent.--padraig3uk 11:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps an example could be taken from the Ascension Islands who also do not have an official flag of their own. --Cka4004 00:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Isnt that because its a BOT?--Vintagekits 00:23, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

text: We do not need a new infobox. The version that existed for years was fine until vintagekits and padraig3uk started their recent campaign to remove it. We should not change something just to suit the agenda of a highly vocal minority Jonto 00:20, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Minority" - like the same minoritiy that nationalists had for years in Derry!--Vintagekits 00:23, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Jonto, your right we should ignore facts and the law and allow a minority to promote their POV by including a un-offical flag in the infobox.--padraig3uk 07:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Just passing by.  On the whole I think it would be useful if editors here read WP:TIGERS. I would also remind padraig3uk to try and avoid sarcasm - it doesn't help your point.  Just my two cents on the flag issue but you could always have an historical list of flags (ie the St. Patrick's cross whenever-whenever, The Standard of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland 1801-1922, Flag of the former Government of Northern Ireland 1953 -1972, [BTW, I don't pretend to know which flags should and shouldn't be included - this list is just an aid to discussion]).  It could become a sprawling list of flags but since at this moment in time the devolved Northern has no offical flag it is an option.  The other option is to go with the last offical flag and leave a note to say that it was the last offical flag and became unoffical at such & such a date.--Cailil 02:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You say the 'other option' is to go with the last offical flag and leave a note to say that it was the last offical flag and became unoffical at such & such a date. This implies that you don't regard the favoured solution, no flag, as an option. Why? Regards (Sarah777 09:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry if my post is confusing.  I actually agree with the flagless box decision, it makes the most sense. My above response is to the dispute about which flag to use.  I should perhaps have added the caveat "If a flag is going to be used"--Cailil 12:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ascension Island does not have its own flag or coat of arms. The Union Flag and Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom are used instead. The fact remains that the Ulster Banner is still the most widely recognised symbol of Northern Ireland across the world, and is still used across Wiki and world sport as a flag and symbol to represent Northern Ireland. --User:cka4004 12:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats becuase the Ascension Island is a British Overseas Territory.--Vintagekits 13:31, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

text: 88111203121, you raise a valid point. While organisations like FIFA use the Ulster Banner to represent NI it seems appropriate to use it in Wiki articles relating to soccer. But I was looking at the various categories associated with Mountains of Britain and Ireland and this sort of thing is fairly common:
I presume that the use of this emblem in Wiki projects should be stopped, as there is in fact no flag representing NI? (Sarah777 15:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, a number have been removed already and replaced with a map of NI--Vintagekits 15:39, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions to new infobox 

message:  
Please fix this page it look terrible  cant it just be protected ?? (Gnevin 22:07, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not an edit request, and the article is already protected. What is it that you want to be changed? Issue another edit request once you know. Sandstein 06:04, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fix this page please

message: I doubt this is a "non-political" alternative to the clear majority supporting "no flag", but if accepted it would of course mean that in the example I have supplied above the Ulster Banner would need to be replaced by the Union Jack. (Sarah777 15:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Vintagekits suggested that I place of this version in a new context info box as an alternative to the one that has been used for years and and the we currently have as a place for people to view it, however if people cannot stand the sight of a Union Jack then simply dont look.--Cka4004 15:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Padriag the only flag that does repressent NI as an idividual part of the UK if the Ulster Banner, which is reflected across Wikipedia as the flag used to show Northern Ireland. The only offical flag of Northern Ireland, and the flag which in the Belfast Agreement all the major parties accepted the offical use of was the Union Jack, however reluctantly. --Cka4004 15:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sarah, it is non-politically motivated as it is the Offical flag of the Country, any challenge to that status is for our politicians to decide. --Cka4004 16:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We are going around in circles here and it has been explained on a number of occasions why the UJ shouldnt be used. Does the article for New York state have the US flag in the info box? Does the article for the Republic of Ireland have the EU flag in the info box? Doe the article for County Dublin have the Irish tricolor flag in the info box? No is the answer, although each of these flags represent the articles mentioned it does not specifically or solely represent the articles subject. The UJ represents NI as a consituant therefore should not be used in the info box.--Vintagekits 16:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

text: But is is widely disliked in Northern Ireland and a divisive symbol. More importantly, from the Wiki perspective, it isn't SPECIFIC to NI; and the function of the little flag-symbols (as shown above...where did the UB go???) is to distinguish the different bits of these Islands. The U Jack doesn't do that. My suggestion of the EU flag would be better as it lacks the divisiveness of the UJ. Failing that the UN flag! (Or maybe a white flag with a dove carrying a bit of a twig!). Padraig; I am in favour totally of "no flag" - just trying to see if there is ANYTHING we can (most of us) agree on. (Sarah777 16:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

text: If their is no national flag, the info box should reflect this. Regards--Domer48 17:27, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

text: To state that "Northern Ireland is not a county or city" you are just ignoring the point I am making. We that the UJ is the flag of the UK and not the specific flag of NI.--Vintagekits 18:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Just to tell you:  now supports a "text_flag" parameter, wherewith text can be displayed instead of an image. GracenotesT § 00:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Indeed, I heartily agree with the emerging consensus of using the infobox displaying the map, especially as everyone in the North are Irish and some do not identify with being part of the Union (though they can, of course, elect to have British citizenship, as well). gaillimhConas tá tú? 01:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem I have with that image is that it protrays Northern Ireland as a island, not as part of Ireland.--padraig3uk 01:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True enough.  Perhaps we could use a map of Ireland with the North highlighted? gaillimhConas tá tú? 01:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why does it have to show it as part of the entire island of Ireland? No reason to do so, it's not part of the same political entity. The Kosovo one that people refer to just shows the map of Kosovo, but not as part of Europe just on its own, so why can the NI one not be the same. I vote against using the entirety of Ireland with NI highlighted as the rest of the island is irrelevant to this particular part of the discussion, and vote for using the map of NI on its own as shown precedence by the Kosovo article. Ben W Bell talk 07:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: With regards to your reference about what has been done with the Kosovo article, it certainly has no relevant bearing on this situation, as the histories of each entity is different in immeasurable ways.  As each person living in the North is Irish (no such thing as Northern citizenship now, is there?), it's only fitting that we display the six counties as part of Ireland, as a whole. gaillimhConas tá tú? 07:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely if you wanted to go down that route it would be much more relevant to show NI as part of the UK, not as part of Ireland, as people born in NI are British citizens (with the option of becoming Irish citizens) and are governed as part of the larger entity of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? Surely due to these arguments just NI on its own is best. Ben W Bell talk 08:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Ben W Bell, the image dosen't have to show the entire island, but at least should show the surrounding counties on the border, showing Northern Ireland as if it was a seperate island is misleading.--padraig3uk 08:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not misleading at all, why does it have to show other areas of the same landmass? The Kosovo article which people are using to support the map option doesn't show the surrounding countries but it doesn't seem to imply that it is an island on its own. It's an outline map of the area known as Northern Ireland, to show other countries on it would be more misleading. Ben W Bell talk 08:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added a different image showing the surrounding border counties.--padraig3uk 09:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: How about this image  as an alternative.--padraig3uk 13:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A non-politically motivated alternative 

message: OK, this may hurt sensitivities on all sides, but personally I don't see any way for the editors contributing to page to resolve the flag/no flag infobox issue alone (i.e. reach a consensus). Trenches have been dug and in fairness its too tight an issue for people close to the matter to call for themselves. I'm of the opinion that there is a case for both sides, but I would not like to be the one to have to call it, nor am I willing to do contribute to the debate for one side or another.
What I suggest is that the contributers here put the matter to an international "jury" and put it to a full Request for Comment. Both (or three? UB/UF/no flag) sides should be able to put their cases forward in a fair manner then allow neutral contributors to judge what they would do. --sony-youthtalk 18:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've largely kept out of this until now.  I support the isolated map idea, as the least offensive compromise to both extremes - I've hears such things described as "equality of misery".  I particularly support it as appropriate as an icon on the hundreds of infoboxes that currently have tiny UB that is almost indistinguishable from the St George Cross.  --Red King 22:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sarah has started a specific topic on this, at Question: is anyone really strongly opposed to ? below. --Red King 22:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion: full request for comment 

message: The Ark poll states:
A plurality of the present-day population (40%) define themselves as Unionist, 22% as Nationalist and 35% define themselves as neither.
The survey was not an accurate analysis of the current views on Northern Ireland demographics relating to Nationalists & Unionists. The poll had a majority of 51% taking the poll who were Protestant, with only 37% who were catholic. To get a true and unbiased view on NI demographics, a poll should represent a 50/50 cut. The Ark poll, which is cited in the article gives a poor reflection of the actual true opinions on Northern Ireland demographics and shouldn't be used on the NI wiki page.If the poll was less biased, the result would be much closer. Previous Ark polls show bias towards Protestant populations as there has never been a Catholic majoritive or equality in an Ark polling, according to Ark's very own tech notes. Ark's survey notes --Jobjobjobtalk 20:53:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jobjobjob wrongly neglects to remember that Northern Ireland is not solely composed of Catholics and Protestants. Any poll should represent as acurately as possible the demographoc of the population, whatever that might be.--ZincBelief 20:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article states Northern Ireland has been for many years the site of a violent and bitter ethno-political conflict between those claiming to represent Nationalists, who are predominantly Catholic, and those claiming to represent Unionists, who are predominantly Protestant.. We clearly don't need equal numbers to verify this. I wonder what issue you are referring to?--ZincBelief 20:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: You have only highlighted your own innacuracies. What you are saying is patently bogus. If they know who is Catholic and what answers they give. If they know who is Protestant, and what answers they give ... well --ZincBelief 21:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ark Poll is not an honest assessment of the demographics 

message: :*I have put forward a proposal here  regarding the inappropriate use of Northern Ireland flag templates in WP.--padraig3uk 08:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Misuse of templates

message: I'm proposing a redesign of the "Irish states template", you can see my proposal at the talk page there. Please let me know what you think, good, bad, or indifferent - and also suggestion to improve it. --sony-youthpléigh 08:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redesign of Irish States Template 

message: The civil rights movement of the 1960s was an earthquake in the history of Northern Ireland.  It represented the end of the Stormont regime, it led unintentionally to the Troubles and it was part of a worldwide movement (blacks in the US, the Paris spring, the czech uprising ...).  Apparently not important enough to get into wikipedia history of Northern Ireland!  That makes the entire article a joke.  And as for the discussion page : thousands of words about the flag and yet not one comment about the dreadful history section!!!  
Pmurnion 13:01, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree (esp. re: "thousands of words about the flag") sony-youthpléigh 15:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  what about the civil rights movement! 

message: I'd like to to change the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in the infobox to Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness, respectively.  They just took their pledges of office.
:Agreed!  I'm sure if page protection was removed, to allow editing about the NI Assembly, people could agree to leave the infobox template wars alone? BastunBaStun not BaTsun 13:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can remove the page protection if people would like. Any objections? Ben W Bell talk 13:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The page has now been unprotected. Oh and can people please sign their posts. Ben W Bell talk 13:48, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Its unprotected now. I've changed the infobox to include Paisley and McGuinness, made reference to the Assembly being restored in the main text, and changed reference #2 accordingly. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 13:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: edit request

message: The main article should be flagged with  and ideally included on the Wikipedia main page as a current event.  Northern Ireland today formed a new power-sharing government, marking the large end to sectarian conflict that has affected Northern Ireland, Eire and Great Britain for 30 years.
 The page is no longer protected so any required changes can be made. Adambro 14:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't put it on the main page, it'll just get trashed and require protection again.--Patrick 16:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: edit request

message: The Rev. and Rt. Hon. Ian Paisley was made First Minister of Northern Ireland today.
The Deputy First Minister is Martin McGuinneas.
As the legislative assembly is now up and running, it may be considered as well that the emblem of the Legislative Assembly of Northern Ireland might be used in the fact box as the emblem for northern Ireland. It is the only officially recognised logo apart from the Union Flag and Royal Coat of Arms.:Image:Northern Ireland Assembly logo.png
This proposal makes little sense...but then most of the proposals made in this site are of a similar nature!
The LOGO is that of the NI Assembly not that of Northern Ireland.  Why not have the logo of the PSNI or maybe the NI Gay Rights Association? But then I would suggest that whichever you should choose that you ask them for permission! We wouldn't want to break any copyright laws would we!
Lughlamhfhada 21:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lughlamhfhada, the LOGO is certainly a clean break with the past! I think an alien plant is a fitting symbol for the entity. And you are being a bit disingenuous by implying the RUC or Gay Rights logos are equivalent to the Assembly in terms of representing NI. The assembly is the ONLY body democratically representing NI; and was established by the all-Ireland democratically supported GFA. Certainly more legitimate that the British Government; never mind the Gay Rights etc. I support this suggestion. (Sarah777 08:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I support it also. And want to back up Sarah's criticism of Lughlamhfhada comments above. --sony-youthpléigh 08:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Sarah for your interesting contribution. You state that "The assembly is the ONLY body democratically representing NI" and you evidently think that this sufficient reason for hijacking it for use in Wikipedia! I would ask you WHY? The National Assembly of Wales has a logo also ...why is it not used to represent Wales instead of the Welsh Flag? Please don't say it is because the Welsh have a flag! Where else in the world is the logo of a local assembly used to represent a political area?  Why is a logo needed?   As regards Sony-youth, perhaps he could expand on why he supports the use of the flax plant logo? I would also be grateful if he could expand on his comment 'And want to back up Sarah's criticism of Lughlamhfhada comments above.'
Lughlamhfhada 19:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A comments such as "Why not have the logo of the PSNI or maybe the NI Gay Rights Association?" is unnecessarily provocative. Saying "This proposal makes little sense...but then most of the proposals made in this site are of a similar nature!" is uncivil and abusive towards your fellow editors. Sarah described your comments as disingenuous. I believe that to be the case. --sony-youthpléigh 21:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Lughlamhfhada - are you now rejecting your own proposal? I was supporting it. (Sarah777 23:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  
Dear Sarah, I'm confused! according to Sony-youth you think that my comments are 'disingenuous'.
I thought that you gave your support to the idea  'that the emblem of the Legislative Assembly of Northern Ireland might be used in the fact box as the emblem for northern Ireland.', a proposal which I found to make 'little sense'.I said that it would make equal sense hijacking the logo of the PSNI or the NIGRA. All these LOGOS are there to represent the various organizations, no more and no less! A flag is used usually to represent a country and thus we have Wales represented by the Welsh Flag (depicting a dragon). 
Sony-youth is evidently not used to 'Ulster plain speaking'! I have expressed my exasperation at the (low) standard of debate and the lack of basic knowledge/education of some of the participants....but this is not to take away from the right of these participants to join in debate and to receive a proper hearing, rather is it a 'plea' to the people involved not to 'mouth off' unless they can back up their argument with sensible reasons or examples.
We all carry baggage from our past and hopefully we can learn from one another, be tolerant, understanding and forgiving.
If we can try harder to understand the views of others, maybe our own views will become more rounded and less confrontational.
Lughlamhfhada 10:54, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Regardless of any perceived merits of using the Assembly logo in this way, it would serve a decorative (not identificatory) role in this page's infobox as regards to its subject (the Assembly itself), and as such I don't really see how it can be acceptable as fair use. See WP:LOGO. --Kwekubo 11:18, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies Lug. Obviously you didn't write the first paragraph above (just below the heading). It looked (and still does!) like you did. The original proposer must not have signed his name. While that made you contribution look a wee bit contradictory - well, you know what you said yourself about the standard of debate here! I thought you were making the proposal despite thinking it was nonsense.  Stranger things have happened in the wacky world of Irish Wiki! (Sarah777 17:33, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Northern Ireland Assembly 

message: If, please God, the devolved Assembly works out OK, surely the British Army can withdraw, and the post of Secretary of State for Northern Ireland can be abolished? I accept that we might need to give things a year or two to settle down, but surely these two objectives are valid? Millbanks 22:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This talk page is for discussing improvements to the Northern Ireland article, not for general discussion about Northern Ireland. Feel free to discuss such topics in an appropriate forum elsewhere. --Kwekubo 22:09, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Way Ahead?

message: Doing research on natural history of Northern Ireland the first place I looked was here, only to find that there is quite literaly nothing. To see some articles added would be of great help.
Thanks
Try Ireland as the flora and fauna don't tend to worry about the border.  If your research finds anything new, please add it and cite your sources. --Red King 19:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flaura & Fauna 

message: I have problems with the following statement; "Often the use of the Irish language in Northern Ireland has met with considerable suspicion from Unionists, who have associated it with the largely Catholic Republic of Ireland, and more recently, with the republican movement in Northern Ireland itself. Catholic areas of Belfast have road signs in Irish as they are in the Republic, viewed by some as a way to let Protestants know that they are not welcome".
There are no references given by the author which would serve to back up these observations. I have a completely different view and feel that the writer of these less than fair comments is perhaps biased towards or ignorant of (or maybe both) the Gaelic language.
Lughlamhfhada 19:00, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then edit that section if you feel its wrong.--padraig3uk 19:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There may be some elements of the suspicion that are true in there but it's pretty much unverifiable and opinion. See what you can come up with to fix it. Ben W Bell talk 06:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, unsourced original research as it stands. Stu ’Bout ye! 07:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: A good resource to start might be here. (In browsing through it I especially enjoyed this: "In 1833, the Presbyterian General Assembly gave its teachers an introduction to Irish which it termed ‘our sweet and memorable mother tongue.’" And this: "[Using the Irish langauge to construct an anti-unionist ideology] was milestone in undermining the Irish language as a badge of identity common to both traditions in the country, and Hyde wrote in a private memoir that it had ‘put an end to my dream of using the language as a unifying bond to join all Irishmen together’") --sony-youthpléigh 08:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: There was also a edit made a couple of weeks ago which I had to revert because it was a copyvio, but it used an excellent resouce also: "The Irish Language in education in Northern Ireland". --sony-youthpléigh 08:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Prob the most (in)famous example might be  86.12.249.63 20:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: William Bedell is a good example of the attitude of many Protestants in the past. Unfortunately the deliberate (and successful) English efforts to extinguish Gaelic culture through use of plantations (amongst many other measures) is well documented. Let us not fall for the classic Imperialist stance of "blaming the victims for resisting too much". As we see alive and well in much western establishment commentary on Palestine and Iraq at the moment. (Sarah777 22:30, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Irish Language [sic]

message: Could someone who knows the subject take a look at Civil rights movement#Civil rights movement in Northern Ireland as it is a vandalised mess. Which in a way is good because what's left if you just delete the vandalisms is a bunch of non-sequiturs. --88.97.11.54 11:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for mentioning that here.  The article is now getting the attention of a couple new editors.  The vandalism and nonsense have been cleanup out of the NI section, but it still is in need of a rewrite. ---Cathal 15:35, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Civil rights movement ]] section on NI a vandalised mess  

message: Any thoughts on changing the images in the article? The Mussenden Temple is an interesting photo, but should be replaced with the far more recognisable :Image:Causeway-code poet-4.jpg. I also think the mural photo should be replaced. It we replace it with another mural photo then :Image:Derry mural.jpg fits in with the accompanying text. But I would prefer a historical photograph, something like :Image:Carson signing Solemn League and Covenant.jpg. There should also be a couple of photos of Derry and Belfast, like :Image:Shipquay Street Derry SMC 2005.jpg and :Image:H&W Cranes2.jpg or :Image:Belfast City Hall - Carisenda.jpg or :Image:Stormont Parliamentary Building 01.JPG. Stu ’Bout ye! 08:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the current crop better. The Carson photo looks like an Oswald Moseley rally; or perhaps a Monty Python sketch about an Oswald Moseley rally. (Sarah777 08:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support more images, especially ones of Derry. The "Free Derry" mural, however, must be added if only because it is one of the most significant (and famous) nationalist murals  - MichiganCharms 05:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: A request for comments has been filed concerning the conduct of Sarah777. The discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Sarah777, where you may want to participate. --sony-youthpléigh 14:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC/USER discussion concerning Sarah777 

message: Since the flag and arms are back in I'd like to change to captions to "Former flag of ..." and give dates etc. but cannot do the same for the coat of arms. Could someone look at the code and see what can be done. --sony-youthpléigh 10:17, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am really sick of this lame edit war over the flag. I have protected the article meantime. --John 18:41, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we get some outside editors to come in and advise? It's clear there is no consensus here and too many people have a POV to push. - MichiganCharms 19:59, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We did here, and the conclusion was clear. As there is no official flag, an unofficial flag should not be used in the infobox. Editors should respect the consensus. One Night In Hackney303 20:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To be completely honest, I don't think they were correctly informed. The flag used by the sports teams is clearly the closest thing to a flag. And either we use it or the Union Flag because that is the official flag... it really doesn't matter how many people died in the famine, Wikipedia has no obligation to be politically correct. - MichiganCharms 20:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes but the Ulster Banner is not the flag of N Ireland, and can't be used, and the Union Banner is not unique to N Ireland.--padraig3uk 20:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  What do you mean "can't be used"? It can and it is used. Not only that but the Flag of Northern Ireland is the Flag of Northern Ireland! You seem to be having a terrible time with logic Padraig. The Flag of Northern Ireland is the only flag Northern Ireland, specifically, has ever had. --Mal 23:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is the flag icon called Flag of Northern Ireland, when it is not an official flag? Regards --Domer48 20:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  Exactly! Presumably its called the Flag of Northern Ireland because its the flag of Timbuktu!! ;) --Mal 23:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The FlagIcon is mainly used and intended for use in sports articles and result tables for the commonwealth games etc, as the NI team use the UB as a symbol, it is not intended for use in articles on Northern Ireland today unless in a historical capicity.--padraig3uk 20:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Indeed. The fact that it is the former flag of NI does not mean it is still the flag of NI. Personally, I find that easy to grasp - but maybe I'm just exceptionally bright. (Sarah777 23:52, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But the Ulster Banner is the closest thing to a flag there is. Clearly people want a flag, and we should provide them with one using the most logical one there is. Other then that, we'd have to default to British Indian Ocean Territory where the Governors standard is used or Ascension Island where the Union Flag is used. -MichiganCharms 20:55, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Clearly people want a flag, and we should provide them with one using the most logical one there is" - no. If there is no official flag, we do not have a flag. It's quite simple. One Night In Hackney303 21:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I look forward to your edits to the Welsh infobox ONIH... --Mal 23:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You'll be living in a United Ireland long before that happens. One Night In Hackney303 23:24, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flags etc. 

message: Hi. Protection expires in a few hours and I have been asked to renew it. What do other people think? Is there likely to be another edit war over flags in infoboxes or some other issue, or should we let it go unprotected for a while? --John 04:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Protect it, as a edit war is guaranteed unless you can protect just the infobox on its own.--padraig3uk 04:52, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Put the infobox in a template of its own (like  on Briton). Protect that template and unprotect the article. --sony-youthpléigh 09:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I've pulled out the infobox into a new page (Template:Northern Ireland infobox) so that it alone can be protected if necessary.  The discussion about the infobox should probably move to that talk page too.  That new page should not be permanently protected (thereby effectively endorsing the current layout), therefore, I do not want to see the discussion end without a permanent consensus.  Andrwsc 15:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection status 

message: Could we try to ensure that the any Curreny such as the Gross domestic product is listed with the GBP (£) as neither Northern Ireland, United Kingdom or any of the British Isles use the US Dollar unless they are on Holiday to the USA.  Craig7006 19:48, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree. As the British Isles are claimed to include Ireland and Ireland does not use GBP; US$ are more appropriate (though I'd prefer € myself).
Ooops! Wrong talk...I thought this was the "British" Isles  page - really must start reading stuff before responding. (Sarah777 00:29, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

text: This issue should be discussed at Template talk:Infobox Country, not here, as the current policy is to use USD figures for GDP in all country articles.--Kwekubo 15:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox Currency

message: - MichiganCharms 03:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ? --sony-youthpléigh 14:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the former government's ensign for merchant ships, I think -MichiganCharms 17:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly not the flag I'm seeing regularly today on the television coverage of The Open Championship.  Andrwsc 17:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was trying to compromise, I think the Ulster Banner is the best option. -MichiganCharms 18:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Andrew, actually I note that at the gallery on the 18th hole there was a number of flags, including a UJ, saltire, welsh flag, tricolour but no UB. Additonally the flag used to represent the golf union or association in Ireland was the flag of the four proviences.--Vintagekits 15:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am User:Andrwsc, not User:Andrew.  There is a difference.  And my comment was simply to note that television media consistently use the Ulster Banner for golfers from Northern Ireland, like Darren Clarke, Graeme McDowell and Rory McIlroy.  I saw it on the U.S. Open broadcast a few weeks ago, and I saw it again this week - on two different networks, to boot.  Andrwsc 15:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Networks in which country/countries? (I know the Golf Channel in the U.S. was making some rather strange use of the phrase 'Republic of Ireland' in talking about Harrington's win at the Open...but that's a whole different story!...) Nuclare 01:57, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

text: This is wrong, any emblem and indeed the absence of all emblems cannot be agreed on here. All solutions are offensive and cannot be considered. See this page for details. --ZincBelief 09:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I'm going to admit I'm no wikipedia expert in writing articles, but I do spend a lot of time reading them.  Frankly this 'debate' over a flag is rather childish and smacks of political sniping.  The Union flag is, as presviously stated, the only flag that currently represents Northern Ireland.  It matters not that the UK has no official flag (as the UJ is official in all but name).  Therefore, it make sense that this flag is in the infobox.  This is especially true since if Northern Ireland were not in the UK the UJ would lose the cross of Saint Patrick, totally altering its appearance.  Hence, when flown on a gov. building this flag symbolises NI and the rest of the UK.  Other flags, such as the UB (for a unionist) or a tricolour (for a nationalist), are widely recognised by people as referring to NI/Ulster/whole island but these flags are not proper flags of NI and since wikipedia is an encyclopedia, facts should not be comprised upon.  For this there are seperate articles and paragraphs making note of the various historic and proposed alternatives.  I fail to see why this is sufficient for some people (yes I am aware of political sensitivities, but the Northern Ireland issue is widely covered).  All I'm saying is that in the info box use UJ and make it clear elsewhere that to a large number of people the UJ is a symbol of continued occupation and is at the very least controversal. ~~ BoroForLife 16:01, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Flag We Can Agree On? (And It's Just as Legal as the UB!) 

message: This discussion alone is already 51 KB long - is it getting anywhere other than confusion? Timrollpickering 12:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, we have a proposal that has broad acceptance.Traditional unionist 12:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have put forward two proposals here and here  I have no personal preference for either one or the other but either would be neutral.  The suggestions that we used just the Union Flag with the Ulster Banner or the Ulster Banner and the Assembly symbol are not neutral and would breach WP:POV.--padraig 12:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So far you are the only person to hold that view.Traditional unionist 12:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The Ulster Banner is fine if it comes with a rider, but not the Union Flag. It doesn't represent NI uniquely, so its not a flag of or for NI distinctinglt from of or for ENG, SCO or WAL. If it were used in the ENG, SCO or WAL articles, it would be different, but as its not. I don't see the point. --sony-youthpléigh 12:34, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your point is a good one, but maybe it should be used on the other home nations?Traditional unionist 12:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And fair enough if it was, but right now, I can't go along with it in the NI article. --sony-youthpléigh 13:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The Union Flag is the only official flag, therefore it should realy be included, either as the only flag, or with the Assembly symbol, or above the Ulster Banner and Tricolour.--padraig 12:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But isn't your argument that the NI Flag only represented the NI Government?  If no we can't have the logo of the NI Assembly.  It doesn't have any "civic" status.Traditional unionist 12:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No my arguement is that the Ulster Banner was the Governmental banner of the former government abolished in 1973, therefore it shouldn't be used in the infobox on an article about dealing with Northern Ireland today, if this article was about the period 1922 to 1972 then the Ulster Banner would be ok, but not in this case.--padraig 13:09, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text:  See List of British flags for some references to organisations using that flag and to respected flag websites. It was only the government that was abolished not the flag (for example the Scottish flag was not abolished in 1707 when its national government was). Astrotrain 13:14, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: St. Andrew's Saltire predated the Scottish Parliament by about 500 years. --sony-youthpléigh 13:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: So the lack of "civic" status has disappeared from your argument?  And you have no recognition of the fact that the flag of NI is internationally recognised as such?Traditional unionist 13:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's evidient that the Ulster Banner is no longer used in a civic context. That its used in a sporting context is unequivical, though. --sony-youthpléigh 13:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The issue of civic status is in regards to claims that it is a de facto flag, which it isn't and never was, its use by some sports bodies today as a symbol dosen't convey that status on it.--padraig 13:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Notwithstanding the fact that "civic" status doesn't exist, it would have nothing to do with it being the de facto flag.  That is a common use issue.Traditional unionist 13:34, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: de facto, I can't quite go with either as its clearly contended, but certainly de facto to the degree that its the only one there is (was?), and so the one that used when one is called for and the one that people would recognise as "the flag of NI". An genuinely de fact or de jure flag of NI may have been put in political stasis for the last 35 years, but that no reason not to show the "last known good", especially when its widely recognisable, with a rider explaining the situation. --sony-youthpléigh 13:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: But common use is within only one section of the population, the other section use the Tricolour in common use.  So the flag of one section is not above the other so if one has de facto status on the grounds of common use then so is the other.--padraig 13:44, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is that it is in common use to denote Northern Ireland outside of Northern Ireland.Traditional unionist 13:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its use outside Northern Ireland is purely in sport by some organisations using it as their symbol, that dosen't convey any status, many sports people from Northern Ireland complete abroad and don't use the UB as a symbol.--padraig 13:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not purely sporting, as a cursory glance at a google search will tell you.  The world tends to use it to denote Northern Ireland.Traditional unionist 13:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The Ulster Banner is unique to one section of the population only.--padraig 13:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What people think of the flag is not relevant.Traditional unionist 13:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is if its going to be de facto :) if it was de jure, their opinion would not be relevant --sony-youthpléigh 14:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Its very relevant if your claiming de facto status, and seeing that the difference between the two sections of the population in the last elections is only about 60,000 votes.--padraig 14:03, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well that's utterly irrelevant!  This is a common use issue, and its primarily OUTSIDE Northern Ireland that we're concerned with.  And outside NI the flag in question is used widely.Traditional unionist 14:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is relevent, and this has nothing to do with outside Northern Ireland this is an encyclopedia and its function is to present facts, not misconceptions that people outside Northern Ireland may have.--padraig 14:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is very insulting to label the majority of the World's views as irrelevent.--ZincBelief 14:15, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was not intended to insult, but the role of an encyclopedia is present facts as they are not endorse misconceptions take people have.--padraig 14:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is very insulting to label the views of those outside of northern ireland as misconceptions.--ZincBelief 14:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  If the outside world's views are all that is relevent, I offer a new proposal. I propose the following symbol for inclusion in infoboxes on all Ireland-related pages: here Nuclare 01:33, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The facts are that the Flag of NI is the only uniquely Northern Ireland lag used to denote Northern Ireland.Traditional unionist 14:22, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The same arguments keep coming up in cycles and we're getting nowhere. I think we should just implement Andrew's idea and edit as appropriate from there. Continuing this ad infinitum is useless and draining. Biofoundationsoflanguage 14:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Its circling. But I will be removing the UF - simply because it is not the flag of Northern Ireland. --sony-youthpléigh 15:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I will be removing the UB - simply because it is not the flag of Northern Ireland either.--padraig 15:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: OK- how about adding the UB in and leaving the arms section blank for now- then we can dicuss whether to put in the UF or the Assembly logo? We all agree on the UB so there is no need for further discussion on that? Astrotrain 15:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: With the "explanation" = agree. --sony-youthpléigh 15:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No that is WP:POV the Ulster Banner dosen't represent Northern Ireland Today.--padraig 15:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's why we need to make it clear by means of the explanation. --sony-youthpléigh 15:34, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sony-youth having the Ulster Banner on it own conveys that it represents Northern Ireland today nomatter what wording is put with it as most readers will see the flag and just assume it is officail, that is not the case.  To do so is against WP:OR and is WP:POV.--padraig 15:44, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It already is in the article.--padraig 15:44, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Traditional Unionist, his name is Andrwsc not Andrew.  We are not discussing the flags of the Irish provinces, we are discussing the lack of flag for Northern Ireland and trying to agree a compromise.--padraig 16:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: padraig we have a good compromise now, I urge you to accept it so we can end this ridiculous debate.  Of all the flags used in NI the UB is the most prominant one representing NI.  It should be the one to be included in the infobox, and its hardly like it is being put there without mentioning the flags debate. ~~ BoroForLife 20:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, I don't recall which precise compromise you are referring to -- as this debate is a bit unruly. I'm wary of putting the UB in the infobox partly because I fear Padraig is correct--that any small print explanation isn't going to work to overcome the impression that the UB (since it's in the infobox) is being presented as "*THE* Flag of Northern Ireland," which can, therefore, be used in conjunction with everyone and everything from NI.  But, I suppose, I might be convinced, if the set-up and the explanation was worked on. What groups other than sports are currently using the UB? Nuclare 01:49, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm prepared to accept Sony's suggestion of the Assembly logo (which is in truth a modern coat of arms) and the UB. -MichiganCharms 05:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I too am prepared to acept Sony's suggestion. Biofoundationsoflanguage 07:48, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Ulster Banner and the Assembly symbol is incorrect, as the Assembly dosen't recognise the banner, and to use it in that manner is misleading. The Union Flag and the Assembly symbol is correct as the Union Flag is offical.--padraig 09:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed the Union Flag is the Flag of Northern Ireland. --Barryob  Vigeur de dessus 09:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is this proposal here.--padraig 09:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully support Padraigs proposal. --Barryob  Vigeur de dessus 10:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot for the reasons stated above (UF is not uniquely for NI, if it were used on ENG/SCO/WAL, which it also represents, articles it would be a different situation.) --sony-youthpléigh 12:19, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sony-youth the Union Banner is the only official along with the official Assembly symbol to represent the government of Northern Ireland.--padraig 12:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But why does it *need* to be consistent with the Eng/Sco/Wal. It seems to me whatever we end up with on this, one thing is clear, it *isn't*--in one way or another--going to be consistent with those pages. I broadly support Padraig's use of UF and NI Assembly symbol (so long as the heading is Official Symbols, rather than Flags--since the assembly symbol isn't a flag). I'd also change some of the text--it needs to lose at least some of it's "ohhh, we all sooo divided" vibe! I have a suggestion about the UB, but I'll post that separately. Nuclare 12:39, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't *need* to be consistent. That's not my point. My point is that the Union flag does not represent NI per se, it represent the UK of which NI is a part. Showing the Union flag as the 'flag of Northern Ireland' is simply blatantly incorrect, its the flag of the UK not of NI. --sony-youthpléigh 13:18, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I take your point. But in a way the UF *does* represent NI. NI would never have come into existence but for support of the union. NI, therefore, is in some essential way *about* the union in a manner that Eng/Scot/Wales are not. Not to mention that the flag itself--with its intersecting symbols of Ireland/Scotland/England says a great deal about NI's make-up. It could be worded in such a way that we are listing symbols about NI rather symbols *of* NI, in other words, making it clear it's not "The Flag of Northern Ireland." Well, that's a suggestion, anyways. Perhaps a different way of thinking about it. Nuclare 15:24, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "NI, therefore, is in some essential way *about* the union in a manner that Eng/Scot/Wales are not." - ?? That tension is surely why we are having this debate. I really can't quite grasp padraig's argument for the Union flag, especially when he points to something like this in argument against the Ulster Banner. --sony-youthpléigh 17:39, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want my real opinion, it would probably be to keep all flags out of the infobox and just reference the Northern Ireland flags issue page there, but other people seem to have a thing for flags. So what's a girl to do? :-) I guess what it makes this particular Irish Catholic girl do is argue for the Union flag!!?! LOL! What's the world coming to?! :-))) If people want colorful stuff in the infobox how 'bout just symbols rather than flags -- put the NI assembly symbol and--who knows?-just an image of the Red Hand of Ulster rather than a flag that features it (of course, that's not unique to NI either). Anyways...The Union flag (as opposed to the UB) at least has the status of official on its side, which is why I'm arguing for it (sort of)--well, in comparison to other options at least. If the items in the infobox need to be unique to NI, why are "God Save the Queen" and Queen Elizabeth/Gordon Brown listed? One other enquiry: that British govt statement on flags that's been trotted out: "The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland." What does the "represents NI" part mean, do we suppose? Nuclare 18:58, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I have no problem with changes to the heading or wording, your welcome to edit them youself, may I suggest we change the heading to Flags and Symbols.--padraig 12:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Flags and Symbols is fine. Here would be my suggestion for the text: "The use of symbols in Northern Ireland can be politically charged. At present, no flag officially represents Northern Ireland uniquely or has a broad consensus of support. See 'Northern Ireland flags issue'". Nuclare 13:10, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the heading, I'll wait and see if anyone else wants to comment on the wording before making any changes to that.--padraig 13:48, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Hear hear. Biofoundationsoflanguage 15:13, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: No we haven't got consensus for that, I suggest you read though this no concensus has been agree on anything.--padraig 15:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitary section break

message: Please vote for your preferred option:
Option A - user:Andrwsc's proposal of The Union Flag and the Ulster Banner with the following wording 
Option B - User:Sony-youth's proposal [here]
Option C - user:padraig's First proposal [here]
Option D - user:padraig's Second proposal [here]
I would like to add this option.
Option E - user:padraig's Third proposal [here]
I hope everyone agrees that these are fairly represent the 5 serious options as above. Please vote, sign your preference. 
* See: Talk:Northern_Ireland#Straw_poll further down in page.
:B or C --sony-youthpléigh 18:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: C ~~ BoroForLife 18:42, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: B or A -- Biofoundationsoflanguage 19:02, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: B Timrollpickering 20:17, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: B or A Astrotrain 10:54, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: A, B or D. Ben W Bell talk 11:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: D or C --Barryob  Vigeur de dessus 11:46, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: E or D or C --padraig 11:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: B--ZincBelief 15:40, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: D -- Nuclare 15:50, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: A or (reluctantly) B' -- Traditional unionist 22:09, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: A or B ... Pharrar 09:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

text: B Quick Reference 09:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

text: B , Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Straw poll on infobox

message: *yes  -- Andrwsc 23:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sarah, please be careful of accusing anyone with a red-link of being an SPA. Plenty of established users of good standing choose not to create a userpage, thereby giving making their signature red. Calling other legitimate editor's !vote's dud simply creates tension and muddies the water for whomever you ask to establish consensus. They should be perfectly capable of deciding what is a valid !vote and what isn't themselves. Rockpocket 05:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Union Flag poll

message: *don't care  -- Andrwsc 23:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Irish Tricolour poll

message: *don't care  -- Andrwsc 23:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Assembly symbol poll

message: My vote above is quite different to "my proposal", that's because what I had wanted was a "package" deal. A kind of al la carte staw poll doesn't really capture the issue, and in that case the only image that I can say is a legitimate emblem of Northern Ireland is the assembly logo. --sony-youthpléigh 08:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My vote above is also quite different to what I envisage. As no discussion on the various options or the outcome has been instigated then this is sure to fail.Quick Reference 14:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I can certainly understand these comments, and my idea fails to cleanly capture situations where you'd like to see "flag A" in the infobox but only if "flag B" is there (i.e. either both of a pair or neither of a pair).  I just thought it would be an easier method for judging for which individual components there seems to be some consensus.  Remember, it's not a binding vote!  Andrwsc 16:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I think it is a handy way of judging the options, but maybe for the next vote, we display the top section of the infox showing the layouts for each option and let editors view each option before voting on them, but as Andrwsc says this is not a binding vote.--padraig 16:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am interested in Gamreidan's vote for the tricolor since his is the only yes. Why? ... Pharrar 07:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not have a No Flag option? There is no policy to say WE MUST HAVE ONE, is there?--Domer48 08:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read the comments at the start of this section, which clearly explain how to vote for a no flag option.  Andrwsc 08:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to check. If no option obtains the supermajority specified, where do we go from here? If the infobox  continues not to have a flag at all, then it could be argued that the "no" votes would win even if they were in a minority. Biofoundationsoflanguage 09:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

text: No option was given for "No image" - nothing can be said about it one way or the other. There is simply no consensus on the options given. Nice to think we almost had consensus before. It has got to be a package deal, otherwise nothing is going to work. --sony-youthpléigh 14:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

text: We do have an option to leave it blank, and you've just voted for it. :) Biofoundationsoflanguage 14:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

text: In this case it might help (Sarah777 21:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Or might mistakenly label legitimate voters as sock puppets. --ZincBelief 13:10, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Considering I think I was the only person to suggest the "flag of Ulster",I feel kind of proud now...but seriously, both of them seem a bit out of their minds, Danny Kennedy especially strikes me as someone who thinks we're all Sinn Fein conspiritors... -MichiganCharms 07:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interestingly, none of the (DUP) interviewees thought that it should be the Ulster Banner.  --Red King 20:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't recall ever seeing the DUP use the Ulster Banner; it has always been the Union Flag. Martin 03:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're clearly not looking then.  Castlereagh Council (DUP majority) flys the flag from their buildings 365, I also think it hangs in the council chamber.  There are other examples as well.Traditional unionist 08:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A Council with a DUP majority is not the same thing as the DUP. The Union flag is rather prominent on their website and literature, not so much the Ulster Banner. And Castlereagh Council could fly the Jolly Roger from "their buildings" if they wanted to (now there's an idea for the info box...). Martin 00:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Good greif! Take two unionist politicians, watch both say that there is no dispute or that they have no doubt about what flag to use, and then listen them repeat the debate that we are having here! What ever would have happened if the Newsletter had talked to a SF or SDLP member? Oh well, that 15 minutes of fame was pretty worthless. Thanks Martin for the link. --sony-youthpléigh 08:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The usual high standards from the Newsletter...the first time I read it, I thought it was a parody like the Portadown News. I can't take credit for the link though, it's at the top of the page! ;-) Martin 00:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments on August straw poll

message: Let's all start a massive campaign begging the MLA's to come up with a damn flag already. Imagine the press we'd get :p -MichiganCharms 19:27, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Haha! Biofoundationsoflanguage 19:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag Solution 

message: Please see Talk:Ulster-Scots#Flag for whether or not  is the right flag to illustrate articles such as that, Scots-Irish American and the like. Timrollpickering 19:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say no, merely because it represents Northern Irish nationalism and I dont think it has a link with the United States.Quick Reference 08:11, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A very different flag issue 

message: This a proposal for a UK manual of style. This will of course cover the entirity of Ireland during the period 1801-1922 and Northern Ireland since 1922. I don't know how this will effect the current WP:IMOS but input would be welcome: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (United Kingdom-related articles). --sony-youthpléigh 14:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know how others will feel but since an Irish Manual of Style has been developed, and is in service, I would see it as easier to keep using it, simply leaving aside the small period of 1801-1922; failing that, some kind of subsidiary document needs to be agreed in advance reconciling the two, or there will be messiness ahead. SeoR 10:05, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed UK manual of style 

message: 151 square miles? Wasn't it always 147? When and how did it increase in area.
:Global Warming!86.30.13.221 19:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lough Neagh 

message: Just wondering, should Gerry Adams not be deputy first minister as he is the leader of Sinn Fein,same way as the lead of the D.U.P. is first minister?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.19.80.19 (talk) 14:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He could have been if Sinn Féin had put him forward for the position which they didn't, Adams and Sinn Féin felt that he as the President of an all-Ireland party shouldn't hold such a position, therefore the party has seperate leaders in both Dáil Éireann and the Assembly groups, with Adams remaining as leader of the overall party.  Also there is no requirement that the first or Deputy first leader has to be the leader of their respective political party.--padraig 09:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's just like the UK government. The Prime Minister doesn't have to be the leader of the majority party, it just usually works out that way. There's nothing to say the positions have to be taken up by the party leaders. Ben W Bell talk 12:05, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are however a disgusting, sectarian and in many eyes immoral set of rules stating that only the largest and second largest party leaders can nominate, cementing assembly elections as sectarian headcounts and not a referendum on who should govern.Traditional unionist 12:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I recall something about Northern Ireland holding "referendums on who should govern" regularly before 1972. Wasn't there something then about "cementing assembly elections as sectarian headcounts" too (albeit that the "assembly" was known as a "parliament"))? I can't remember what the problem was ... maybe you can, TU? --sony-youthpléigh 12:16, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it the D'Hondt method you are talking about Traditional unionist? BigDunc 12:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No he's refering to the UUP and their mis-rule over a fifty year period, when they played the sectarian card to ensure they remained in power.  Something that some in that party would like to see a return to.--Padraig 14:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actaully I'm talking about the At Andrews changes to the election of first minister, but thanks for the assumptions of bad faith and personal attacks.Traditional unionist 15:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What personal attack, my comment was about the UUP, not you, so how is that an assumption of bad faith.--Padraig 17:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A QUESTION