Talk:Richard Francis Burton

message: I have archived earlied discussions (pre 2006) on this page.  Talk:Richard Francis Burton/Archive --Richard Clegg 14:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive 

message: Are there no modern reprints of his works? I'm willing to read his translations of Camões, but not to pay 5.000 dollars for it.
201.50.90.68 00:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Only his more famous works are in reprint.  He wrote so many books that it is inevitable most are not.  I suspect the translations you are after are not currently being reprinted though I could not say for sure.  --Richard Clegg 20:27, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Editions 

message: The article says he could not read it, however, Rice reports he did study it, as well as Gujarati, with the famed nagar brahmin. He also translated himself the Vikram and the Vampire tales, which is a very strong indicative of his Sanskrit knowledge.
Yes, this issue is still there, as it's listed among the languages he could speak.  Λυδαcιτγ 05:04, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sanskrit 

message: Are you sure that these are correct? I don't think so. You can read my article Coins of Somaliland for further details. - (Aidan Work 00:08, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked against the Lovell biography and they are correct except the death date which is contraversial and may have been the day after the one listed above (it is unclear if he died on the evening of the 19th or the morning of the 20th.  --Richard Clegg 21:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dates of birth and death

message: Although Burton was not the first European to make the Hajj (that honor belonging to Ludovico di Barthema in 1503 [3]), his pilgrimage is the most famous and the best documented.
Inaccurate. Islam existed in the Iberian peninusla from 750-1492AD. Thousands, if not millions, of European Muslims would have made the Hajj in that time period. Needless to say, I edited it. Artichoke84 18:51, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification as the first non-Muslim European...

message: I added detail about the Kama Sutra (weird that it was missing, presumably because the article at some distant point was taken from the 1911 Britannica).   However, the article is now a bit long (my fault, I've been adding lots).  I think it would be sensible to hive off some of the bits into separate articles.  Would it be reasonable to have the sections I wrote on the Kama Shastra Society and on Burton and Speke moved to separate articles?  --Richard Clegg 13:03, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential reorganisation of page 

message: User:Taz Manchester listed Richard Francis Burton as a "convert to Islam" -- I am not sure about this.  In the Lovell biography "A rage to live" page 84, she states "It has often been said, even recently, that at heart Richard was a Muslim, that he accepted the Muslim faith and lived by it throughout his life.  My conclusion is that this is to exaggerate reality.  Burton investigated Islam thoroughly, as he did Catholicism and other forms of Christian religion... he regarded his observance of Islam as the means to an end rather than a statement of faith."  I would add that he had (at the insistence of his wife) signed a letter saying that he would enter the Catholic faith on his death bed (and, indeed, he had the last rites performed).  I hope nobody minds that I have removed this category for now.  --Richard Clegg 18:04, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Burton and reglion 

message: I don't think he was Burton -- although he remains the best-known Englishman to have made the Hajj. I believe a person by the name of Joseph Pitts (flourished 16th C, I believe), who had been captured in a sea battle & made a slave was the first. It was not his intent to go: his master decided to make the pilgrimage, & since Pitts had been coerced into converting to Islam he was brought along too. Source:  Foster, William, Sir, ed. The Red Sea and adjacent countries at the close of the seventeenth century as described by Joseph Pitts, William Daniel, and Charles Jacques Poncet. London: Hakluyt Society, 1949. 2nd series, vol. 100. -- llywrch 21:06, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks -- fixed.  http://www.wwnorton.com/nto/18century/topic_4/pitts.htm confirms what you say.  --Richard Clegg 22:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The First Englishman to Mecca 

message: No references in the first half of the article. With proper citation, however, this could be featured. savidan(talk) (e@) 04:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now added such references -- I also fixed the quotes you moved to wikiquote (in general, moving text to wikiquote breaks lots of things).  I hope you would not mind me resubmitting the article as a good article. --Richard Clegg 10:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I replied on my talk page. savidan(talk) (e@) 19:14, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Failed GA

message: I think with the added references, less obtrusive reference style and expansion of the mention of his fighting skills, this is now of Good Article standard.  Congrats to Richard Clegg and all other contributors.  --Estarriol 16:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent.  Thanks very much for your help and suggestions.  --Richard Clegg 21:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Good Article

message: Was Burton a convert to Islam? If so, then this is significant enough to be mentioned in the article (I can't find any trace of it...) but if not he needs to be removed from :Category:Islamic converts. TheGrappler 18:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. No evidence of conversion has been presented. Pecher Talk 09:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This has been discussed here before and removed once before -- see the section on the talk page "Burton and religion".  --Richard Clegg 00:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Categories

message: Congratulations! The Good article nomination for  has passed. Many thanks to all who were involved in the creation of this article. --SomeStranger (T | C) 16:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  That's great news.  --Richard Clegg 16:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Good articles|Good Article]] [[Wikipedia:Good articles/Nominations|nomination]] has passed 

message: This article is not really the place for a detailed discussion over whether or not Speke committed suicide.  However, I could not let the current version stand because it did contain some erroneous information and some misleading information.  A victorian coroner would always be reluctant to conclude suicide for the sake of the family and because of the way it was considered.  While some modern biographers of Burton used psychoanalytic techniques (e.g. Brodie) , others were rather scathing of such (e.g. Lovell) and still kept an open mind about Speke's death.  The facts are that nobody saw what happened because nobody was looking.  The best witness was a relative of Speke (and hence would have an interest in concluding no suicide) and his two best documented statements (one at the inquest and one to the Times IIRC) are completely contradictory.  No witness was looking at the time of the shot.  Evidence pro suicide is wholly circumstancial: the timing of the death and the fact that Speke was an experienced gunman who had used that type of weapon before.  I think all that needs to be said in this article is that it is speculated.  This is true.  Whether he did commit suicide or not we cannot say.  There is no evidence that he did or did not.  I think an expanded version of this debate would certainly be suitable for the article about Speke --- perhaps the debate could be taken up there including quotes from the coroner's statement and eye witnesses?  I'd be interested in contributing to that.  In an article about Burton though, extended debate is out of place I think.  --Richard Clegg 14:50, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The death of Speke 

message: I believe Richard Burton traveled to the Utah Territory and met Mormon leader Brigham Young.  I seem to recall he also penned a book called Among the Saints, or something to that effect.
My memory is foggy on the topic, but perhaps someone else could add this missing information.
: This is true -- it was in the late 1850s I believe.  He wrote The City of the Saints as a result.  The book is included although there is nothing in the article about the meeting.  Is there anything in specific you'd want included?  --Richard Clegg 11:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it rather interesting that one of the more facinating explorers of the time met one of the most facinating religious leaders of the time (Brigham Young).  Burton, along with many others, was interested in the sensational polygamy aspect of the Mormons which at the time was unabashedly practiced.  He had encountered polygamy among the Muslims of course, and he was in an usual position to compare and contrast the two.  Alas, I have not read his book City of the Saints so I cannot authoritatively write about it.  But someone else should!  Bigmac31 (talk) 18:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I realize I'm replying to a rather old discussion, but I do concur that it would be noteworthy enough to include a section about said travel.  Alas, I too haven't yet read the The City of the Saints, but perhaps someone who has can fill in some details. Surv1v4l1st (Talk|Contribs) 18:41, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Travels to Utah Territory? 

message: A Thousand Nights and a Night is twice called "his" title for The Arabian Nights.  In fact, it's merely a translation of the Arabic title:  Alf Layla wa Layla.  The Arabian Nights is folklorist Andrew Lang's title for his abridged selection.  (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_One_Thousand_and_One_Nights)  So I'm going to change the references. Katzenjammer 12:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I don't speak Arabic, but I have read it is a "fussily literal" translation which would be more usually translated as, for example, 1001 nights -- rather like translating vingt-et-un as twenty and one.  I can't comment as to whether it is true.  I believe Burton/Arbuthnot were the first to use this title though.  --Richard Clegg 13:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoever suggested that was a little confused.  It's definitely poetic, but the poetry is in the Arabic, not the xlation: 'layla' means 'night', not 'thousand', so the Arabic is literally "1000 nights and [a] night".  The title would have to be literally "1001 nights" (alf-wa-wahid layla) in Arabic for "1001 Nights" to be a more accurate translation.  (I hope that wasn't too confusing) Katzenjammer 15:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "His" Title 

message: The Sir Richard Burton Medal
Sir Richard Burton was one of the most famous and adventurous Fellows of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland (est. 1823). The award was established in 1923, in conjunction with the Society's Richard Burton Memorial Lecture programme, set up earlier to mark the 100th anniversary of Burton's birth. Persons receiving the award are expected to deliver the lecture, on Burton, his travels or some related topic. Previous recipients include Freya Stark (1934) and Wilfred Thesiger (1966), Simon Digby (1999) and Professor David Snellgrove (2004).  
I am a Fellow of the Society and reworked the Society's website entry <<royalasiaticsociety.org>> a bit simply to induce you to add a note or two on this venerable award, the Burton lecture, and Burton's affiliation with the Society. Overall, you've done a fine job on this page. --JC West 18:03, 18 April 2007 (EST)--Westernesse 22:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Memberships" 

message: "His time in the Sindh prepared him well for his Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) ... The pilgrimage entitled him to the title of Hajji and to wear a green turban." -- Since Burton was apparently, at least at this time, a kafir rather than a Muslim, to say that he "made the Hajj" and was "entitled to the title of Hajji" strikes me as rather odd. In his own words quoted in the article "nothing could save a European detected by the populace, or one who after pilgrimage declared himself an unbeliever". IMHO his "Hajj" was rather a false or imitation one, and he had no valid claim to the title of Hajji. -- Writtenonsand 23:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That line is not sourced ("The pilgrimage entitled him to the title of Hajji and to wear a green turban. Burton's own account of his journey is given in The Pilgrimage to Al-Medinah and Meccah (1855)."), see if you can find a source for it or remove it. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 20:43, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Richard Burton, Hajji? 

message: The questions to be decided are: 1. Whether material documenting Burton's homosexual history is appropriate in this biography, and 2. Whether an editor's opinion that certain literary sources are defamatory is sufficient reason to disqualify those sources. 03:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Appropriateness of discussing homosexual details in this biography

message: I am confused about the versions of Arabian Nights that were printed in 17 volumes. The first is the Kama Shastra Benares edition, this we know.
But was there a second edition of 1000 by the Burton Club in 17 volumes after that? Have the Americans re-printed this again?
I have a 17 volume version from a 1000 limited edition. It just says printed by the Burton Club and gives no dates. I think it was printed in 1920.
Wool Bridge (talk) 22:11, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Another question on a similar line.  I have a collection of the volumes and the supplemental volumes, all printed by the Kama Shastra Society, plus a volume of illustrations, all dated to the original dates of publication (but I think they were gathered together as a set at a later date because they have several different people's bookplates in them).  My question is - were there two editions of the 16 volumes printed for the Kama Shastra Society in 1885-8?  Someone I asked said that one set had the Terminal Essay and the other doesn't.  Mine doesn't, but the book dates all suggest they're the first editions.  I'm confused, especially as the article states there was a guarantee that there would never be a larger printing of the books in this form. 86.143.70.75 (talk) 17:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There have been several reprintings of Burton's Nights because it is no longer under copyright.  Many of them don't list the date of publication however.  I have one without the date but it is clearly in good condition and is most likely from the 1970s and not a "first edition" as the inside cover suggests.   There are tons of 'pirate' versions of this and other Nights as well.  See http://www.wollamshram.ca/1001/index.htm for an example of what a complete Burton edition should contain.Richard ruffian (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 23:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Versions of Arabian Nights 

message: In article it states that he "entered Trinity College, Oxford"
Infact Trinitiy College is in Caimbridge not Oxford.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.71.12.130 (talk) 17:12, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early life and education 

message: Hi there. I translated the whole article for the french wikipedia and found several questions that need to be addressed before the text might be eligible as a “BA” (GA). I noticed Richard Clegg did not edit since dec 2, 2006, so I assume he won't be able to reply himself to this, but I hope someone following this page will.
# it is stated in introduction that RF Burton was a hypnotist, but surprisingly, there is no further mention of this in the text. We would like some details, examples and references about his hypnotist's activity.
# it is also stated in the current french (but not in english) version that he was a “sufi master”. Can anybody confirm this ? and give sourced precisions ? I don't remember now where this came from, but suspect now the information to be a hoax.
# Burton was  a fencer and wrote books about fencing : however no dedicated paragraph develops this aspect in the text which only mentions his fighting abilities now and there.
# The last point concern Burton's alleged antisemitism. Are there other evidences than his book The Jew, the Gipsy and el Islam that RFB was actually antisemitic (in his whole life behaviour or other writings or declarations) ? This is of  some importance since the guy is still categorized in “Catégorie:Antisémitisme”. 
Thanks for paying attention : Archibald Tuttle (talk) 15:43, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Several items to discuss 

message: Neapolitan is a language and not a dialect: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_language
http://nap.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paggena_prencepale - Neapolitan Wiki
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_napoletana
I know that this seems like clutter but my simple edit changing "Neapolitan dialect" to "Neapolitan language" was "undone" because I didn't explain myself well enough. Rbritt518 (talk) 11:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Neapolitan

message: The link to The City of the Saints, Among the Mormons and Across the Rocky Mountains to California appears to be broken.  Just a heads up. Surv1v4l1st (Talk|Contribs) 15:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind.  I found the correct link and fixed the page. Surv1v4l1st (Talk|Contribs) 16:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The City of the Saints, Among the Mormons and Across the Rocky Mountains to California 

message: A request has been made to move Richard Burton (disambiguation) to Richard Burton.  See Talk:Richard Burton#Requested move. --Una Smith (talk) 04:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notice of requested move 

message: Shouldn't his "works" section on this page be linked to wikipedia pages about those works?  As it is the titles link to their content online.  Maybe it should be more in line with how other pages of authors have their works linked and be something like:  "Goa" (linked to a wikipedia page on that title) with a pdf link after the title to the content found on the Internet.  Does that make sense?  !!!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard ruffian (talk • contribs) 23:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Works 

message: I find this highly unlikely. It's unclear what exactly constitutes "discussion". This certainly wasn't the first mention, description or depiction of homosexuality in English. Already Chaucer calls one of his characters a "mare", Shakespeare wrote sonnets, the Restauration was naughty and a lot of homosexual activity was both recorded and "discussed" (i.e. chastized) - Rictor Norton has enthusiastically collected a lot of info and has a lot on his web page - the 18th century saw a lot of molly houses, Fanny Hill contained a gay episode, there were mentions in mainstream fiction (e.g. I recall an episode with a suspected homosexual captain in The Adventures of Roderick Random), etc.etc., and during all that time one would refer in a historical context to the well-known "vices of the Ancient Greeks", and so on. Perhaps Burton's was the first attempt at an entire scientific treatise on homosexuality in the English language, but this would also need to be sourced.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 16:57, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say that it's just wrong.  The Sins of the Cities of the Plain in 1881 predates it and is an "openly published discussion in English of sex between males".  Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 20:33, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  First ever published dicussion of homosexuality in the English language? 

message: Have repaired the bare URLs and have completed a fair amount of work on the section identified for copyediting.--Soulparadox 15:47, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyediting and bare URLs 

message: A.S. Byatt's rather lovely novel, "The Biographer's Tale" concerns a biography written about a man who is clearly an exaggerated and affectionate parody of Sir Richard Burton.  (Byatt has always been fascinated by Burton's Arabian translations.)  Is this of any interest in mentioning in the article, do you think?  NaySay (talk) 15:15, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Biographer's Tale 

message: I think the whole section on Burtons relationship with Speke is highly biased, unfavorably to Speke. It seems to rely heavily on Burton's biographers and not noting material from new research, i.e. Tim Jeals very well researched book 'Explorers of the Nile'(2011), which paints a much more nuanced picure. Specifically the paragraphs on Speke's alleged promise to Burton to wait for him in Londen; Speke's defectiveness in geographical and language skills; Speke's 'Victorian' racism as opposed to Burton's allegedly more sympathetic views of nonb-European peoples and cultures, have all been challenged by Jeal and other recent authors. I think this section needs to be far more balanced, and have introduced some new material, mainly from Jeal (2011).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samenspeler (talk • contribs) 16:45, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've copyedited your addition somewhat to make it plain that these views are from sources and are not "facts" per se. You seem to be leaning towards the same bias (but in reverse) you claim Burton's traditional biographers employed. I also think you're relying to heavily on a single source (Jeal's book). If this is indeed the "new perspective" then we need other sources to corroborate. Please continue your editing and thanks for adding a new perspective to the article. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 18:17, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Burton/Speke relationship

message: An editor recently added Tuam, Ireland as an alternate place of birth which I reverted. This was actually where his father, Joseph Netterville Burton, was born. Reference: Edward Rice (1990), Captain Sir Richard Francis Burton: A Biography, pg. 9.  ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 19:06, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Place of birth 

message: I want to add a section to Richards page about his expedition to Somalia and i have the following sources
# BEN MACINTYRE."The Orientalist Express." May 7, 2009. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/10/books/review/Macintyre-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 
# An Exploration first Footsteps in East Africa. London: Tylston 1894. print  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laptime (talk • contribs) 12:36, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Notice of intent to add to the article

message: the writer is buried in church how is athiest?--Muhib mansour (talk) 23:22, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Many, many (many) atheists are buried in churchyards. Don't delude yourself. 143.85.18.26 (talk) 17:28, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  is athiest? 

message: The text in the section "Scandals" reads:
Stanley Lane-Poole, a Burton detractor, reported that Burton "confessed rather shamefastly that he had never killed anybody at any time."
Shouldn't "shamefastly" be "shamefacedly"?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomas Peardew (talk • contribs) 17:16, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Shamefastly: "In a shamefast manner" per Wiktionary. What's problem?? 143.85.18.18 (talk) 14:42, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look up "shamefastly" in Wiktionary, you will see "in a shamefast manner". If you then look up "shamefast", , you will see only one definition, and it is labeled Archaic. It is an old English word that is not used anymore. If you look up "shamefacedly", you will see "in a shamefaced manner". If you then look up "shamefaced", you will see two definitions. "Shamefaced" and "shamefacedly" are still in active use. CorinneSD (talk) 17:02, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  An Eggcorn? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have removed a monstrosity of a quote box that must've violated all of WP:ACCESSIBILTY. Let's try to find a way to add it again without making a mainspace article look like a userpage.
* English
* French
* Occitan
** Gascon dialect
** Béarnese dialect
* Italian
** Neapolitan
* Romani
* Latin
* Ancient Greek
* Saraiki dialect
* Hindustani
* Urdu
* Sindhi
* Marathi
* Arabic
* Farsi
* Pushtu
* Sanskrit
* Portuguese
* Spanish
* German
* Icelandic
* Swahili
* Amharic
* Fang
* Yoruba
* Asante dialect
* Hebrew
* Aramaic
Thank you. Jay D. Easy (talk) 00:32, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monstrosity 

message: This section ends with a quotation that was not closed.  I have taken the liberty of supposing that it should be closed just before the citation, but I wish someone with access to the source would check.  Fortunately this seems to be a fairly active article. J S Ayer (talk) 22:28, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early Life and Education