Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (schools)/Archive 5

message: I'm pleased we're finally getting somewhere. I've had a go at redrafting the page based on Adam's revised nutshell. I've set up a framework for providing examples for each English-speaking country where I believe we have consensus. (I'm not too sure what to do about New Zealand. A lot of work is still needed, but at least it's a start. I would imagine most of the existing overview section could be incorporated into the US section. Dahliarose 22:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Moving forward

message: How do we disambiguate Dartford Grammar School for Girls and Dartford Grammar School when they are in the same city located near each other, both only admit girls but are very different schools. Help? Adam McCormick 03:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't need to as both schools have unique names! It might help, however, if both schools had 'hatnotes' with links to the other school. The intros and infoboxes are not very clear on either article. One is a boys' grammar which admits girls only in the sixth form, and the other is a girls' grammar, but neither article makes this very clear. Dahliarose 09:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree, they could both be called "Dartford Grammar School" and anywhere but Dartford itself, noone would know which was which. Adam McCormick 18:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  But they're not both called Dartford Grammar School. Both articles use the actual school names. There are quite a few of the old grammar schools which are named in this way. Under the old grammar school/secondary modern system, most towns had their own grammar school(s), and quite often there were separate grammar schools for boys and girls. There are a few more named in a similar way in :Category:Grammar schools in Kent. I've added the appropriate hatnotes to the two Dartford school pages. I still don't understand the problem. We can't be responsible for the way schools are named. There are presumably only two Dartford grammar schools in the whole world, and with hatnotes on each page, it is easy to go from one article to the other. Dahliarose 19:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I didn't understand the issue completely, sorry. Hatnotes should be plenty of disambiguation. I am just of the opinion that we should disambiguate anywhere that there could reasonably be a misunderstanding. If this was Somename High School and Someday Secondary School wouldn't they be disambiguated? It just seems like adding the extra word doesn't do enough in most cases, especially for schools that go by a lot of names (Not that these two fall under that group) Adam McCormick 20:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  OK, here's a problem 

message: The schools listed at Lasallian_educational_institutions and this search are in need of a major reorganization and disambiguation effort Adam McCormick 04:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Massive Disamb issue 

message: This goes back to the ambiguous place name problem.  If there's more than one school in the same place the name of the municipality is irrelevant.  It needs more specific disambiguation in order to specifiy the differences.  If there was more than one Forrest School in Berkshire--
Going back to the Surrey example. This is what happens when there are two schools of the same name that need to be disambiguated, and then the place that they need to be disambiguated to (in this case Surrey) is ambiguous) 
Example school A (Surrey, British Columbia)<Br>
Example school A (Vancouver, British Columbia)<Br>
Example school B (Winnersh)
Example school B (Surrey, England)
Example school C (White Plains, North Dakota)
Example school C (Surrey, North Dakota)
Example school D (Middlesex, Jamaica)  also fully diambiguated--not ambiguous
Example school D (Surrey, Jamaica)
What we're talking about is when the name of the school is not unique and the schools are named after place names that are not unique.  And sometimes, like with the example, there are schools named after places that are just located someplace completely different.  Sometimes this is because the school is chain like, or because they are emulating a school or whatnot.  At any rate, this is what happens:
Surrey Academy of the Performing Arts (Los Angeles, California)  -- Los Angeles, California
Surrey Acadamy of the Performing Arts (Jamaica) -- Surrey, Jamaica
Surrey Academy of the Performing Arts (England) -- Surrey, England
Surrey Academy of the Performing Arts  -- Middlesex, Jamaica
Surrey Academy of the Performing Arts (Winnersh)  -- Winnersh, England<Br>
Surrey Academy of the Performing Arts (British Columbia) -- Surrey, British Columbia
Does this make sense to everyone now? We just don't have the stuff on ambiguous place names written in yet Miss Mondegreen  talk  22:59, July 11 2007 (UTC)
:This is in fact a different problem altogether. We seem to be suggesting that for US schools the first part of the location parameter isn't necessary when it is included in the title. My concern is that this could potentially lead to confusion. The following examples are hypothetical but demonstrate the potential problem:
Golden Valley High School (California) in Golden Valley, California
Golden Valley High School (Texas) in Golden Valley, Texas
Golden Valley High School (Townsville, Maryland) in Townsville, Maryland
A new Wikipedia contributor (who is unlikely to find the school naming convention page when he first starts out) wants to create a new article on Golden Valley High School in Newtown, Kansas. He will therefore look at the existing school titles, but will not understand the format. He knows that there is only one Golden Valley High School in the whole of Kansas so he names his new page  as Golden Valley High School (Kansas). Whatever is decided I think we need to clarify the US section to make the format very clear. Dahliarose 08:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ambiguous place names

message: How about this, then:
When the name of the location of the school is not identifiably unique, additional location information has to be added. The disambiguated article name tries to balance three issues, disambiguating the school, disambiguating the location and keeping the title short.  These three concerns are prioritized in exactly that order.	For example: School Name (Redhill) does not tell you which Redhill the school is located in.
School name (Redhill, South Australia) works perfectly.
If in doubt as the to the level of specification required, use the title of the Wikipedia article on the respective settlement.
There are always a few exceptions to the rules.  Use community consensus, local conventions, and common sense to decide upon a title that fully disambiguates, without becoming overlong.
chgallen 13:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ambiguity, take 3

message: Chgallen ... tick K.I.S.S.. Two "Redhill, Surrey"s? No that is not allowed. a) Wikipedia (or any other database) will not allow teo identical article names b) There is a disambiguation policy for placenames. 
There may, in reality, be 47 Redhills in Surrey. And seven Surreys in England, and three of those have villages called Surrey in them - But they will all have different article names. Luckily we do not need to solve that problen. We have the most productive people I know from the schools project involved in this debate. Come on! Lets DO something. Victuallers 13:39, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: treading warily

message: For what it's worth Sutton High School is now a disambiguation page and the school that was there is now at Sutton High School (London). In the end I followed the location used for Sutton railway station (London). Timrollpickering 14:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's perfect.  Well done.  (chgallen 14:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. That is the most logical solution. One small point, if I've understood the disambiguation guidelines correctly should the page not actually be entitled Sutton High School (disambiguation) or have I misunderstood the instructions? Dahliarose 17:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think disambiguation pages don't have (disambiguation) after them unless it is to differentiate them from the main, important article named without disambiguation.  e.g. Littleton is a disambiguation page without the parenthesis, but Newton (disambiguation) requires them due to the article on the physical quantity not being disambiguated. chgallen 18:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. That does make sense. It's not very clear at all on the disambiguation guideline. I did recently create a St Paul's School (disambiguation) page, but I think in this case there is an overwhelming case to change the current St Paul's School (London) to St Paul's School as it is so well known and all the alumni link there. At least I will know for next time! Dahliarose 11:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sutton sorted 

message: I'm getting very confused with all these versions, especially when they get changed midway through the discussion. Miss Mondegreen's latest version is still confusing. The whole point about including the suggestion to follow the article name was to avoid all these confusing explanations about ambiguous place names.  The place names have already been decided by the experts I suggest the following (I haven't got time to work out all the fancy formatting):
*Unique school article – School Name
*Disambiguated school article – Ambiguous School Name (Location). When the name of the school is not identifiably unique, the school's location must be used to disambiguate. Use the appropriate country location format as shown in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements) in conjunction with this guideline. The location may be one or two parameters depending on country preferences. In most cases the article title of the respective place name will be the best indicator as to the parameters required. Forest School must be disambiguated because it is not a unique school name. There is a school of this name in Walthamstow, London, England, so the school has been named Forest School (Walthamstow) in line with the naming of the town article. Similarly Lakeland High School must be disambiguated because it is not a unique school name. There is a school of this name in White Lake Township, Michigan, United States. The school has therefore been named Lakeland High School (White Lake Township, Michigan) in line with the naming of the township article.
*Avoiding repetition. When the location is given in the school's name, but the school's name is not unique, disambiguate with the most specific location parameter which does not repeat.Bedford High School in Bedford, Bedfordshire, England must be disambiguated because it is not a unique name. Bedford High School (England) is preferred. However, if there were more than one Bedford High School in England, then the repetition would be accepted in order to differentiate the school in Bedford with the school in a different city.
*There are always some exceptions to the rules.  In these rare cases, use community consensus, local conventions, and common sense to decide upon a title that fully disambiguates, without becoming overlong.
===Commentary===
That seems to sum up the general trend of the discussion nicely. Adam McCormick 12:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We all seem to be working on this in different places at the same time! Can we perhaps incorporate my suggestions above in Miss Mondegreen's overview and then put it all in a new section below so that we can see where we've got to. My proposed wording above gets over the problem of the ambiguous place names. I think the Bedford High School is also perhaps a bad example as there will be very few UK schools which would only require disambiguation by country in this way. Perhaps Sutton High School (London) might be a better example. The place in Guam is actually called Tumon and I've now corrected this.Dahliarose 13:04, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Starting afresh

message: That seems to sum up the general trend of the discussion nicely. Adam McCormick 12:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We all seem to be working on this in different places at the same time! Can we perhaps incorporate my suggestions above in Miss Mondegreen's overview and then put it all in a new section below so that we can see where we've got to. My proposed wording above gets over the problem of the ambiguous place names. I think the Bedford High School is also perhaps a bad example as there will be very few UK schools which would only require disambiguation by country in this way. Perhaps Sutton High School (London) might be a better example. The place in Guam is actually called Tumon and I've now corrected this.Dahliarose 13:04, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Commentary

message: Right-o--her'es a first whack at the text I was talking about.  Miss Mondegreen  talk  14:18, July 24 2007 (UTC)
:Seems a bit too wordy with too many single sentence paragraphs, I like the suggestion a few sections above as it is very concise but adequately descriptive. Adam McCormick 14:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A try at text

message: The main page has become an unbelievably bloated way of saying:
"If two schools share a name, add their locations in brackets using WP:NC:CITY."
I'm convinced I could write from scratch a concise, clear explanation of what to do in every scenario to replace what's on the page.  If you look at other naming conventions, it's ridiculous that the naming conventions for schools is one of the most complex there is.  Always remember: it is not our place to explain how to create disambiguation pages and use hatnotes.  WP:D already does that far better than we could.  All we need to say is how to name school articles.  That's it.
I'm going to have a go at rewriting the page with that in mind in my sandbox when I have a moment.  chgallen 12:34, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done: User:Chgallen/Sandbox.  I've tried to abide by the spirit of what we've all agreed on.  I have kept in mind that all this page is supposed to do is outline the naming conventions for schools.  There are already pages specifically devoted to explaining disambiguation and hat notes.  Look at WP:NAME and read some of the other naming convention pages - none of them go into detailed explanations of how to (as well as when and when not to) create disambiguation pages.  Simplicity and clarity are the buzzwords.  Have a look, tell me what I've done wrong, and then we can start disagreeing about something else.  chgallen 10:10, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is getting silly