Talk:Leka, Crown Prince of Albania

message: I have tried to add refs and make improvements to this article about this fascinating figure. Considering how active Leka has been in trying to return as King, more so than most other claimants to abolished thrones, I think this article is a bit threadbare and could do with further sourcing and possibly expansion. I have added fact tags in appropriate places to try and encourage this, not as an indication that I don't think the statements are true - the article needs clean-up but doesn't seem to suffer from NPOV issues in content or tone. --SandyDancer 11:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of the information, which you are referring to as unsourced, has been added to me.  It was found in various books, other documents and through conversation. Thus it is not possible to link the facts to internet sources.  I shall, however, attempt to compile a bibliography, if this would be appropriate.--Couter-revolutionary 12:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't add unverified statements to biographies on Wikipedia, so yes, naming your sources and linking to them with footnotes would be appropriate. You will see I removed the addition you made to the intro re: "even the Albanian prime minister calls him King". I must be honest and say I thought this a rather strange addition, reliability of the source aside, Wikipedia is not somewhere to make claims that abolished monarchies still exist and that the royal status of ex-royals somehow cannot be abolished ... that seems to be why that sentence and source was added ... --SandyDancer 13:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not saying the PM thinks he exits, he calls him that out of courtesey. Read the source, that is what it says.  It is useful for people to know how he is trated in Albania, you have to look at the wider picture, Mr. Blair would not call him this, but his own PM apparently does.--Couter-revolutionary 13:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of that, what does it add? Don't you see how strangely what you wrote read? Some of your edits are making articles read as if they are arguments in favour of your views on the divine right of kings. That is unhelpful. --SandyDancer 13:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I merely think people would appreciate knowing how Leka I is treated within Albania.  If a source says that the PM of Albania referred to him as King I think this is notable.  The intro. says he is referred to as King by Monarchists.  Apparently it's not just monarchists...As you seem to dislike this fact you have removed it.  Please appreciate a useful source.--Couter-revolutionary 13:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The source doesn't explicitly say that and the source is unreliable anyway. --SandyDancer 13:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is it unreliable? Because it says something, which you do not want to hear? I do hope you can give me a better reason.--Couter-revolutionary 13:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it appears to be self-published. I have already said that. Look at it. Get a third party involved if you think I am being unreasonable. I am not. --SandyDancer 13:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvement drive

message: My understanding is that we do not customarily call anyone "King So-and-So" unless he himself is actually reigning (King Carl XVI Gustav, King Juan Carlos, King Abdullah II), or unless he himself formerly reigned (King Constantine II, King Michael, King Simeon II, King Mohammed Zahir Shah). I gather that the only exceptions to that general practice are abdicated kings who have been granted another title instead of king (the Duke of Windsor). 
It is surely not the proper custom to refer to the heir of a reigning or deposed king as "King So-and-So" unless that heir has actually reigned as king himself. If he hasn't, he's called by some other title (the Comte de Paris, the Crown Prince of Ethiopia, or Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia). 
If this is the case, and it seems to be, then the supposed King Leka has pretentiously usurped a style to which common practice does not entitle him. To boot, it doesn't matter if his "followers", or even the Prime Minister of the Albanian Republic, choose to call him King Leka. A usurpation of a right does not create a right, and he has no business calling himself anything more exalted than Prince Leka at most, until Albania changes its constitution to that of a monarchy and designates him as its king. 
I'm not saying this out of any antipathy toward this gentleman. I simply can't see how else to read the situation. Tom129.93.17.195 23:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Titles of deposed monarchs vs. titles of pretenders: How can he be "King" Leka?

message: This page and the article note that the monarchy was abolished during Zog's lifetime but the succession box says the monarchy was abolished in 1961.  Which is correct. Barliner 20:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The monarchy ended in 1939 officially, but King Zog remained "King" all his life, until 1961 (the year of his death).  Thus Leka became King (in pretence at the least) in 1961. --Counter-revolutionary 01:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I thought. Succession box amended.   Barliner 13:55, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  when did the monarchy end 

message: Who said that Skanderbeg's sister married into the Zogu famly?  I thought she married into the Toptani family?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.202.100.23 (talk) 22:47, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skanderbeg 

message: <<Immediately after his deposition, Zog moved temporarily to Egypt, where he became a friend of King Farouk. He then began life in exile as a jet setter in various countries. The royal family settled in England, first at The Ritz in London>>
I thought they lived in Egypt AFTER they lived in England?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.202.100.23 (talk) 23:07, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Egypt 

message: <<He has since reinforced the family fortune with successful business deals in commodities.>>
I thought the business deals were because the money had run out?  Hardly reinforcing a fortune?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.202.100.23 (talk) 23:12, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  fortune? 

message: This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: The table reads that he was aged 69 when he was born.  Are you sure?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.106.212 (talk) 00:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite sure. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 10:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the anon is misreading the template - he's 69 now.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 10:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ...which is obvious to any idiot!--Counter-revolutionary (talk) 10:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Age 

message: He is the heir to the Albanian throne. King Leka I, and is often referred to as such, including by monarchists and members of the media [1].  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.167.107.112 (talk) 10:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  First paragraph makes no sense 

message: Part of the section about his flight from Spain is either a copy and paste or close paraphrase of the 
Telegraph obit of Susan and needs work...Hack (talk) 12:30, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyright

message: There are useful comments form the Prime Minister here:
http://www.keshilliministrave.al/?fq=brenda&m=news&lid=15635&gj=gj2 ChilternGiant (talk) 12:23, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prime Minister 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Prince Leka of Albania which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 22:15, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in progress

message: Substituted at 11:01, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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message: Does this mean he was graduated or was failed out? --142.163.195.239 (talk) 17:20, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "passed out of" British school.   

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message: Leka, Crown Prince of Albania (born 1939) → Leka Zogu I  — The current title is an absolute mouthful, as is his son's article Leka, Crown Prince of Albania (born 1982), which should also be moved to Leka Zogu II.
My proposed changed would make for an article title that is shorter & more to the point. It also makes more sense to use a generational suffix, as opposed to a birth year, to differentiate between a father and son with the same name.
Additionally, their respective articles on the Albanian Wikipedia already refers to them as Leka Zogu I  & Leka Zogu II .
Here is an article by Reuters which refers to him as Leka Zogu I , and a Vice article which refers to his son as Leka Zogu II.
- Ageofultron 7:48, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Move as described by Presidentman: Lekas and Ella as prescribed, Nicholas to an alternate title. -   UtherSRG (talk) 14:40, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I also moved the original Leka, Prince of Albania to Leka, Prince of Albania (disambiguation), though I don't know that having that is absolutely needed. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:46, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

text: I invite you to this move discussion. Anotherwikipedianuser (talk) 13:50, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  I recognize that there is room for ambiguity, but I prefer to use Wikipedia's ways to disambiguate than to leave these titles as they are right now: misleading, inconsistent, innaccurate. Anotherwikipedianuser (talk) 15:10, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

text:  I suggest removing that redirect at  to Nicholas I of Montenegro. After being the Prince of Montenegro, he was the King of Montenegro, and he is remembered as such, I guess. Anotherwikipedianuser (talk) 15:35, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Nicholas I is the primary topic, but a discussion can be opened at WP:RFD if required. DrKay (talk) 15:46, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done! RfD opened. Anotherwikipedianuser (talk) 16:24, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

text:  That's exactly my point. I am willing to drop the RfD and support moving Nicholas to Nicholas, Prince of Montenegro (born 1944). Anotherwikipedianuser (talk) 21:20, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

text:  The younger Leka and his wife would only be Crown Prince and Crown Princess if the older Leka had been King before abolition. The monarchy was abolished, the King was Zog I and the older Leka was the Crown Prince. The younger Leka may be called "Crown Prince", but he's not. It is done this way in several monarchies, only Albania and Montenegro are contradicting the norm. I reinforce that I accept moving Nicholas to Nicholas, Prince of Montenegro (born 1944). Anotherwikipedianuser (talk) 21:20, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Please note that Wikipedia policy is to pay attention to independent reliable sources, not official or legal declarations. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:45, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 17 September 2022