Talk:Shintō Musō-ryū

message: I finally found the original reference to Kaminoda sensei being the "recognised headmaster" of Isshin-ryu. Its found on the Northern Virginia Jodokai  which belongs to Kaminoda Senseis organisation. "We follow the teachings of Kaminoda Sensei of the Nihon Jodokai in Tokyo. He is Menkyo Kaidan, hachidan hanshi, chief instructor at the Zoshokan temple dojo in Tokyo and the recognized headmaster of Isshin Ryu kusarigamajutsu". I used that site as a reference in the early versions of this article before I got more solid sources. In retrospect perhaps using a Kaminoda Sensei dojo-website for reference regarding this particular matter was a bit unwise. I'll not re-include the "recognised headmaster" part in the article based on this alone, and it seems there are no other sources. Fred26 09:54, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you could email them for clarification. I will be back in Tokyo next week and I could ask Kaminoda directly. I am sure he could clear that up and possibly give some more information on the general status of Isshin ryu. So far he has always been approachable on these mattersYnambu 13:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Isshin-ryu "headmaster"-reference

message: You have written  'Sixty-four is the number of jo-kata taught by the groups that follow the teachings of Shimizu Takaji'
Actually no, because if you are 'following teachings of Shimizu Takaji' you will be doing 'Gohon no Midare' which adds 5 more kata to the Fukuoka 64 (omote 12, chudan 13, Ran ai 2, Kage 14, Samidare 6, okuden 12 & gokui 5) 
Did you mean 'Sixty-four is the number of jo-kata taught by the groups that follow the teachings of Otofuji Ichizo' Ynambu 11:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes and no. "64" kata is a very old entry in this article and I havent given it much thought lately. The number of kata is dependant on how we count and there is several ways printed. Technically there are 13 kihon but the last is counted just 1 time as it is a left/right variation (in some sources I've seen). Kage has technically 14 kata but 2 of them are variations so some state Kage as a 12 kata series. Unfortuntely I was caught off-guard by all that when I first entered the "64" and the other kata-number related entries. I'll go through it tonight after practice. Sharp eyes by the way. Fred26 14:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Technically there are 13 kihon" - You don't mean 'kihon' there right - Let's not get confused here - we are not talking about kihon at all.  There is documentation on the 64 kata being equal to omote 12, chudan 13, Ran ai 2, Kage 14, Samidare 6, okuden 12 & gokui 5 - variations are included. Ynambu 15:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say: People count the kata differently and I used kihon as an example of that. The original confused "64 kata" I wrote long ago was based on various sources who count the kata differently and this didnt exactly help. If you want an example: This Jodo-group count 12 omote 12 chudan 2 ranai 12 kage 6 Samidare 5 gohon no midare 12 okuden and 5 gokui, a total of 66 in this particular case. I've read 62 total kata in another online source though I cant remember the link to it. So picking what source to follow can be tricky when even Matsui himself states that Kage has 13 kata eventhough some count it as 14. Pascal Kreiger puts it in his book "Samidare comprises 5 kata plus one variation" which one can interpret as it being 5 kata in samidare. Is there 12 kata plus one variation in Chudan or is it simply 13 kata? It's a mess and the examples above was what I had to work with when the original "64" figure first came up to me. It will be fixed one way or another, trust me on that. *edit* Oops, I wasnt logged in when I signed this post. Fred26 19:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok Sorry I understand. I have been up all night so my reading and comprehension skills are greatly dimished. I'll do more research later this week. I am going by the count given in the Jodo Kyohan but as I don't have it here it might be a good start out question for Kaminoda on Saturday. Thanks for making the archive BTW. Ynambu 19:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its no prob. Sometimes my head gets so tired I cant even spell or compose a full sentence. I'm gonna go through the (more) reliable sources I have and see if I can find a definitive way of counting the whole shebang. From the looks of it right it seems every group has different ways of counting, including Kaminoda Sensei. Shouldnt be no problem though with a bit of work. Fred26 21:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I visited Kaminoda Dojo Saturday and came away with a lot of written notes which I will work on this week. I had planned to record everything but couldn't get my very new Sony recorder to work (I bought it in akihabara one hour before going to the dojo - not a good idea) anyway I was invited back on Thursday for some sort of grading. I did confirm the 64 kata count as being that which I mentioned previously. Also these past few days I have been in email communication with Mr. Jon Bluming who studied together with Mr. Draeger around 1959-1960. He has been very helpful. Ynambu 12:00, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The one and only Jon BLumming :-) . I'll rig something up with the counting of the kata and explaining the fact that different groups & senseis seem to count them differently. It's good that you took notes from Kaminoda, though I'm not sure how we can actually quote "notes from interview with Kaminoda". Fred26 12:57, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well actually Mr. Bluming wrote back very quickly and offered any information he had. I was vey impressed by his gracious manner and willingness to help. He told me he started in 1959 and took 3rd dan Jodo and Iaido in 1961 at the same time as Mr. Draeger and 4th dan in 1966. He must be one of the very first at such a level at that time. Re: the kata count Well as Mr. Kaminoda merely said his count was the same as was written in the Jodo Kyohan I suggest we use that as the reference (he did write the book it after all - sorta dumb of me to ask really) Ynambu 14:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have been reading this article with much interrest, as I am practising jodo for some time now, and was wondering why the 3 tokushu kata are never counted, not only in this article but I didn't find them anywhere on the net. According to my teacher who was in Japan in the late 60's Shimizu Sensei left out 1 of the 3, so I have been teached only 2 Oishi2002 10:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Kata - About the number of -

message: I have finished the Kanji database of SMR terms. It currently has 4,600 characters all cross referenced. It was harder than I thought.  I have all the kata names listed for all the ryu ha and all the techniques within the kata for the ryu ha. About half are pretty universal to all teachers and groups (Kihon waza etc) but some techniques and kata just about have a different name or Kanji or if same Kanji then different reading for every group. Makes your head spin because just when you think you have a 'standard' universal reading and you put it into 'Google Japan' whoops up pops another SMR group with another set of readings. Anyway it's done and now I'm taking a few weeks off to go to Izu for holidays. Have a nice summer guys. Ynambu 14:44, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Say hello to Anjin-san for me :-). Fred26 17:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Didn't see Anjin but nearly fried to death in the Summer heat. Feels almost good to back in Tokyo. Ynambu 15:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Kanji database is finished 

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thread_title:  Auto-review 

message: Right..Long story short. I'm on a wikibreak and I have been on one since August. The reasons for that are many, but the main one was that I had way to much stuff to deal with (and still have), both in real life and on wikipedia. It wasnt a question of simply scaling down the wikipedia but rather to either do it full time or not at all. I chose the latter.
I'm not back fulltime just yet. When I do my main goal will be to finish adding & editing the "organisations" sections of both the main article and "History of Shinto muso ryu". I will also seriously reconsider the value and future of the "grades in (insert organisation here)" section.
I'm also considering removing and integrating the "Notable Shintō Musō-ryū practitioners" into the text. Exceptions would be people that cannot be mentioned in the same way as, for instance, Otofuji Ichizo. Pascal Krieger can be mentioned in the "organisations" section and his entry in the "notable practitioners" can be removed afterwards and so on.
 
After I'm done with the above I will have reached the end, at least as far as my own level of Shinto Muso-ryu knowledge is concerned. Afterwards the main deal for me will be to clean up the article and make sure it holds to wikipedia standards. I cannot take on any more responsibilities on wikpiedia after that due to my need of focusing my energies elsewhere.
Fred26 (talk) 22:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hello again all 

message: Well, I'm confused. Is there a difference between the hanbo and the (modern) tanjo, or not? If the point is that Meiji tanjojutsu wasn't derived from earlier hanbojutsu, we should say that. If the point is that the original tanjo (unlike the hanbo) was tapered -- but they're now, as objects, indistinguishable -- we should make that clear. (And do we know for a fact that the hanbo wasn't tapered? I've seen a lot of tapered bo, albeit generally in kung fu schools. I'd like to see a reference here. --Chronodm (talk) 17:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Krieger's Way of the Stick (p. 411) says that the Jôdô tanjo was derived from the European walking stick, and the art (first called sutekki-jutsu = "stick" art) was developed by Uchida Ryôgorô in the 1850s. --Idler.de 19:00, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Addendum: The article is not quite correct in this regard. The tanjo as used in (and sold by) Nishioka Sensei's Tokyo dojo is still similar to a 19th century gentleman's walking stick: It has a handle end which is slightly rounded with a diameter of approx. 27 mm and has a uniform taper down to 20 mm at the bottom end. However, it sports neither a handle/grip nor a ferrule. However, there is a 5 mm bore through the tanjo (about 15,5 cm from the top) which might be used to affix a tassel or a securing cord. A uniform stick (like a shortened jo) may be used instead; such a "hanbō"-type tanjo would have a slightly different balance, but this would not really be essential for the kata. Greetz - Idler.de 12:16, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "the tanjo should not be confused with the hanbo" 

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thread_title: File:Tsukidome.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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thread_title:  External links modified