Talk:Better Place (company)

message: I'm surprised this is the first discussion topic posted here!
I've made a couple of maps - which do people like best?
On viewing the images at this size, the circles one is obviously clearer, but any other suggestions? -- Chuq (talk) 00:40, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's clearer with the circles but I'm not convinced that a map is necessary or appropriate for this article. Dino246 (talk) 11:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: There is an excessively long statement in the introduction that is contained in parentheses. I was hoping to find a place lower in the article where that statement could be placed as a full sentence rather than an aside. I failed to find such a location. The statement, where it sits, is distracting and IMO, inappropriate. I'd appreciate help in coming up with a way to work it into a later section, perhaps one discussing charging stations and batteries. 184.237.118.85 (talk) 04:26, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inappropriate aside 

message: Please don't take this the wrong way but your recent additions are almost completely unacceptable. I'm guessing you haven't edited wiki much so rather than throwing a lot of jargon at you I'll have a go at wikifying it. I'd appreciate it if you waited til i was done before you have another go. Greglocock (talk) 22:55, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also removed Sunsurfer's and Ffinder's recent additions of overly detailed cost analyses for specific vehicles. Such calculations are not suited for an informative article on the entire company and are borderline spammy. De728631 (talk) 21:51, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  sunsurfer's massive recent additions 

message: I've made some false-fact-cleanup in this area, putting a more balanced approach - the company WANTS to use only renewable energy, but in fact, at least in Israel, it's IMPOSSIBLE. Israel's grid is based on 99% fossil fuels according to a recent (2010) McKinzey's report (hebrew). There are future plans for changing that, but surely 2011 Better Place's cars would use fossil fuels only, and I bet that also 2012. I suspect that Better Place marketing tries to make the company look better through this wiki article, but they do it wrong, by saying untrue things. Mar Garina (talk) 22:10, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  False sayings about energy sources 

message: I've removed some highly dubious paragraphs that quote articles on Better Place (little more than rewritten press releases) on the dangers of fast charging. This is tantamount to letting the subject of the article explain what's wrong with its competitors' approach without identifying them. The material is even self-contradictory in the way it asserts that fast charging puts strain on the grid, then saying it's no big deal, then that "one blog" raises the concern anyway. Even without this material, the article is still too much of puff piece, in my opinion.
:Fast charging may degrade the battery or even kill it so it should only by used in emergency situations.
:Also, fast charging puts high demands on the grid.
:For a sizable roadside station, the power used to slow-charge a number of EV batteries that have been swapped-out of motor cars will be the same, on average, as if the same total through-put of motor cars using that garage had, instead of battery-swapping, parked up for half an hour whilst their batteries were fast-charged.  The fast-charge solution may involve minor additional fluctuations in the power taken by that garage around that average power level, but such fluctuations are unlikely to be of a size to trouble the local distribution network operator. Concerns around grid impact have however been raised on one blog.
:Even if future fast charging and car battery technologies enable fast charging at much greater speeds than today, and even if network constraints inhibiting much take-up of fast charging are overcome, Better Place may remain attractive since their business model of selling the car without the battery, lowers the upfront price of the cars cheaper than gasoline cars of similar size.
--Tysto (talk) 19:50, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I reinstated that before you wrote this. The concern is real, even if that section needs work. I agree this article reads like a puff piece in general. Let's edit it rather than shredding it. Greglocock (talk) 22:13, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd suggest removing most of that.  Just reference Charging station, which has better coverage of that subject. --John Nagle (talk) 06:50, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fast charging info removal 

message: I've tagged stuff that is now checkable, specifically sales claims in israel, and start of commercial availability there and in denmark. All overblown predictions should be similarly tagged. I notice that this article has been heavily ref bombed using the failsafe "X claims Y" construction to get all sorts of absurdities in there.  Greglocock (talk) 23:47, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Dubious tags

message: It reads:
"Renault will offer electric models of existing vehicles, like the Mégane sedan, but at competitive prices that they claimed would be similar to gasoline models."
Is this sentence intended as being in the future tense of past tense?
- Jordan  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.178.248 (talk) 05:31, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Describing past announcements of vaporware for which the projected delivery date has passed strains the expressive capabilities of English tenses. This may be expressible in Latin, in which verbs have both aspect and tense. Let's break this into two sentences, rather than pushing the limits of advanced grammar. --John Nagle (talk) 06:19, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Launch" Section > Paragraph 2 > Last Sentence > Tense, Future or Past? 

message: I put a "fact" tag on "The first four battery switching stations began operating in Israel in May 2012".  There are PR sources that say that, but even Better Place's own web site doesn't actually say where these stations are. There's at least one real battery swap station in Israel, opened March 2011..  But I can't find any mention of the location of any other battery swap stations in Israel. --John Nagle (talk) 05:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed line about four battery switching stations in Israel.  This seems to be another instance of "real soon now" PR being reported as "actually happened."  If there is more than one Better Place battery swap station in Israel, it's at an undisclosed location.  Better Place's total worldwide infrastructure seems to consist of four demo centers worldwide (Israel, Denmark, Canada, and China) , some power outlets in a few cities and Hawaii, and about 100 delivered Renault cars..  --John Nagle (talk) 20:36, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There are pictures of battery swap stations in Israel at . Some of them even look finished. So, finally, they're pouring concrete. Or their building contractor, the Baran Group, is. There's one driver report of a test visit to a battery swap station that I can find. The station wasn't open to the public; it's still in test, as of May 2012. So this is still a Real Soon Now thing, not an operational thing.  But at least it's not total vaporware. --John Nagle (talk) 07:04, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Battery swap stations in Israel - real or vaporware. 

message: Reverted John Nagle (talk) 06:43, 15 July 2012‎ Nagle (UTC) for following reasons:
* Fast charge vs battery switch edit isn't Nov'11 "puff piece" of talk page and is factual and specific to Better Place business model --  deserving of local discussion here -- not just in charging station.
:Removed exaggerated grid risk of fast charging in this section per elsewhere in Talk Sci2mike (talk) 15:10, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Inserted above map as a reference to a revised paragraph (in the Israel section) Sci2mike (talk) 23:54, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Fast charge vs switch, Israel Customer Qual and Grid, add ext link, deliveries now, add map

message: CEO resigned/fired, cash crunch, layoffs.  An anon updated the article, and they weren't wrong.  I just fixed some typos and put in citation templates.  --John Nagle (talk) 07:06, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Article in the Financial Times.. Agassi definitely out; company looking for more funding. "Better Place says it has 500 customers in Israel, 250 in Denmark, and another 70 in Australia". Also, apparently the company direction will change from battery swap to charging outlets. --John Nagle (talk) 16:59, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Company in trouble 

message: I think that the glowing positive nature of this article needs to be rebalanced. Either we add a criticism section to restore neutrality, or we start to take a distinctly jaundiced view of the company's many intentions and few positive outcomes. Greglocock (talk) 05:10, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Despite the bankruptcy, hype continues to appear in the press. "Why did the project fail? "Both the vision and the model were right, but, over the years, the company made several mistakes, which delayed things." - Better Place CEO, post-bankruptcy..  There will probably be some good articles about what went wrong over the next month or two.  --John Nagle (talk) 22:51, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: For the time being, I made several edits about the bankruptcy and hope they reflect a NPOV. I agree we have to wait until an objective analysis is published. Anyway, the article still needs a lot improvement to keep it based on RS and with a NPOV.--Mariordo (talk) 01:43, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Better Place bankruptcy comments are starting to appear in the press.  Jerusalem Post : "Agassi’s management skills didn’t hold a candle to his skill as a salesman. The company’s business model was an incoherent study in overreach and hubris."  Inside EVs : "Liquidator told the Knesset Economic Affairs Committee today that it would stop operating its battery replacement stations and recharging points on June 13." The BetterPlace.com web site still shows no indication that the company has gone bust, other than a brief comment in the news section.  John Nagle (talk) 19:32, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Even the endgame is going badly. The second buyer to try to buy the remaining assets, Success Ventures, didn't have the money. Their check bounced.. Article updated. There are now also lots of articles on why Better Place failed: EVworld (generalities, no insight), Jewish Press  (blames Shimon Perez), Forbes  (more generalities), Jewish Telegraphic Agency ("What he needed to do was focus on a small core success" ... "it was way overexpanded"), and Harvard Business Review ("wasteful efforts to establish toeholds and run pilots in a slew of new geographies"). The consensus seems to be that Better Place had far too much company, locations, projects, and overhead for the number of cars on the road.  Amusingly, the BetterPlace.com web site is still up as if nothing has gone wrong. John Nagle (talk) 18:13, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Israel Electric Company is about to turn off Better Place's remaining charging points..  Nobody is paying the electric bill.John Nagle (talk) 18:40, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Attempts to sell the company having failed, the receivers now plan to sell off the parts and liquidate. The web site, "betterplace.com" has dropped out of DNS.  It's dead. John Nagle (talk) 20:02, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Gnrgy bought the remaining assets of Better Place for only US$450,000. 55 used cars are being sold off. Some unsold new cars (at least the ones that didn't rust in storage) are being sold at a big discount.  Gnrgy will keep the charging points, but not the battery swap stations. A "tell all" book is being written by one of the investors. That may provide info for an article update. John Nagle (talk) 19:35, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: As the final phase of liquidation, the leftover battery packs are now on sale. John Nagle (talk) 18:59, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism section 

message: What is the correct naming? Is one of both a trademark and the other one the generic term?
Unfortunately I couldn't find any information online :-( I guess there is a wikipedia guidline how to handle different names for one thing. Currently the article Better Place uses "battery-switching" and Battery_swapping#Battery_swapping uses "Battery swapping".
Any help?
87.174.239.26 (talk) 12:21, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Tesla is using the term "battery swap". Tesla is opening a battery swap station in December.  One station, between SF and LA, so Tesla owners can drive from SF<->LA. Tesla seems to think of this as an special service for crossing long distances, not the normal mode of recharge. John Nagle (talk) 23:10, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "battery-switching" VS "Battery swapping" 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Better Place. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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replies: text: Checked archive pages.  OK, except that archive.org didn't get the video; it's at  on Youtube. Also removed multiline quotes from citation templates because they now cause template errors. John Nagle (talk) 08:21, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Better Place. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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I have just added archive links to  on Better Place. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Undid some uncited changes by an anon which tended to deemphaize the company's failure. This article has a long history of spin control problems, which seem to have survived the bankruptcy. John Nagle (talk) 23:38, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, good call Greglocock (talk) 06:18, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undid changes by anon. 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Better Place. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.dongenergy.com/EN/Media/Press%20releases/Pages/CisionDetails.aspx?cisionid=404494
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.bilimp.dk/statistics/index.asp
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.betterplace.com/the-company/press-room/Better-Place-Delivers-for-Demanding-Amsterdam-Taxi-Drivers
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://danmark.betterplace.com/om-better-place/presse/better-place-danmark-as-indgiver-konkursbegaering
*Added  tag to http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000829551&fid=1725
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000833830&fid=1725
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2010/04/green-car-breakthrough-awards-go-to-ev-charger-pioneers-coulomb-better-place.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140714222625/http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-1000875072 to http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-1000875072
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enDispWho=Articles%5El2267&enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enVersion=0&enZone=Technology&
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120218013056/http://danmark.betterplace.com/elbil-til-dig/fakta-om-elbiler/ to http://danmark.betterplace.com/elbil-til-dig/fakta-om-elbiler/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:44, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified