Wikipedia talk:Category names/Archive: Poll started August 4, 2005

message: If any subject is categorized by country or nation, there are at least two options for the title. The first  is "<object> of <nation>", e.g. "Category:Philosophers of Greece" and "Category:Rivers of Canada"; the second is "<nationality> <object>", e.g. "Category:Greek philosophers" and "Category:Canadian rivers". Some people assert the latter is more natural; some people assert the former is easier since the proper adjective for some nations isn't well-known.
An exception must be made for battles. For example, there could be both "Battles in France" (e.g. those taking place in the country of France, regardless of who fought in them) and "Battles of France" (e.g. those in which France was one of the participants, regardless of where they took place). 
===Philosophers of Greece, Rivers of Canada, etc===
#Radiant_>|< 09:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC) (note that "American football" is the proper name of a sport, thus we could have categories such as "American Football in <country>", just like "Soccer in <country>")
# This one clearly means the person is from the country.  The other could be people who speak the language (e.g. French Films).  I prefer this one, unless the category is dealing with language instead of nationality.  I also recommend soft redirects. -- Samuel Wantman 09:48, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal one

message: #Radiant_>|< 09:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC) (note that "American football" is the proper name of a sport, thus we could have categories such as "American Football in <country>", just like "Soccer in <country>")
# This one clearly means the person is from the country.  The other could be people who speak the language (e.g. French Films).  I prefer this one, unless the category is dealing with language instead of nationality.  I also recommend soft redirects. -- Samuel Wantman 09:48, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Philosophers of Greece, Rivers of Canada, etc

message: #Hidingtalk 09:27, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Greek philosophers, Canadian rivers, etc

message: #Of Canada when it is something clearly confined to the borders of Canada, e.g. :Category:Buildings and structures of Canada. Canadian when it applies to vaguer items that includes content related to things Canadian, even outside of Canada, e.g. :Category:Canadian literature. For instance Jim Carrey is a Canadian actor in that he is an actor with a Canadian citizenship, but he is quite clearly not an actor of Canada in that he does, and has never done, any of his acting in Canada. - SimonP 13:28, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
#I think the distinction might be physical features (rivers of, buildings of, mountains of) vs. more abstract concepts like citizenship (pertaining to people related categories).  Note that the preposition isn't universally "of" (e.g. the "Cities in" subcats of :Category:Cities by country).  This is not to say we shouldn't write a rule that can be enforced, but that the rule will be more complex than "things of x" or "xian things".  -- Rick Block (talk) 13:59, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
#I think this is a better solution.  I believe where possible people should be categorised by nationality, whereas geography and history and the like is more sensical as of or in foo. Hiding  talk 16:56, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Depends on the situation

message: In the names of categories and articles, the United States of America should be referred to in a consistent way. The same applies to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and possibly other countries which have commonly abbreviated names. There are too many options here to make a majority vote practical. Instead, please sign your name and list two or three options that you find acceptable. Please do not specify which options you hate most, that isn't helpful.
Suggested options include,
*(the) United States of America, and (the) United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
*(the) United States, and (the) United Kingdom
*(the) United States, and Great Britain
*(the) USA, and (the) UK
*(the) U.S.A., and (the) U.K.
*(the) US, and (the) UK
*(the) U.S., and (the) U.K.
*America and the United Kingdom (or American and British)
Depending on the outcome of the first vote, this may turn into "Economy of the USA" or "USA economy", etc.
This list is not exhaustive, but it may be preferable for the naming to be similar - e.g. using "U.S.A." with the dots and "UK" without the dots is not particularly consistent.
===Vote here===
# USA / UK. Radiant_>|< 09:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC) (and have no problem with "United States" / "United Kingdom"). Radiant_>|< 11:25, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
#[[of] the] {USA|UK} dab (ᛏ) 09:37, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal two

message: # USA / UK. Radiant_>|< 09:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC) (and have no problem with "United States" / "United Kingdom"). Radiant_>|< 11:25, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
#[[of] the] {USA|UK} dab (ᛏ) 09:37, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote here

message: This proposal would favor common usage. 
This would make for less standardization among categories, but possibly more between categories and articles.
One real or perceived flaw with this proposal is that the "common usage" is not always easily defined.
One real or perceived benefit is that it would be in line with current WP standards for article naming.
===Vote===
#I think I like this best of all the proposals so far. Maurreen (talk) 17:59, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 3: Common usage

message: #I think I like this best of all the proposals so far. Maurreen (talk) 17:59, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: This proposal suggests adopting two existing guidlines, and settling one remaining issue.
===Proposal 4a===
This proposal favours using Wikipedia:Naming conventions (country-specific topics), which is an existing guidline to the effect that people should be categorised by nationality, whilst items of countries should be categorised of country.
One real or perceived flaw with this proposal is that standardisation should not preclude comon usage or flexibility.
One real or perceived benefit is that it is an existing guidline with established consensus.
====Vote====
# Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 4: Existing Policy

message: This proposal favours using Wikipedia:Naming conventions (country-specific topics), which is an existing guidline to the effect that people should be categorised by nationality, whilst items of countries should be categorised of country.
One real or perceived flaw with this proposal is that standardisation should not preclude comon usage or flexibility.
One real or perceived benefit is that it is an existing guidline with established consensus.
====Vote====
# Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 4a

message: # Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: This proposal favours using Wikipedia:Naming conventions (acronyms) , which is an existing guidline to the effect that U.S. with periods but UK without periods should be used when abbreviating the United States of America and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland respectively.
One real or perceived flaw with this proposal is that standardisation of abbreviation is not achieved.
One real or perceived benefit is that it is an existing guidline with established consensus.
====Vote====
# Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 4b

message: # Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: This proposal is to seek a preference on the term used to define nationality for the United States of America in the event of proposals 4a and 4b being accepted.  The choice then becomes one of American 
versus U.S.
American is thought to be common usage, however, it is also thought by some to cause confusion between the continent and the country.
U.S. is thought to reduce confusion, however, it is also thought not to be the most commonly used phrase.
====Vote====
#This proposal is redundant with proposal two. Radiant_>|< 08:14, August 5, 2005 (UTC) As stated before, "American" should never refer to just the United States. Just because many Wikipedians are from the USA doesn't make that term any less factually wrong. Radiant_>|< 11:25, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
#:Comment Radiant, could you just clarify why you believe it is wrong, when it is the term the USA uses, and is common usage.  Do you mean confusing rather than wrong?  I don't think anyone is proposing we use it because the majority of wikipedians are American, but because it is the term used to describe the nationality of a citizen of the USA. Also, are you intending to vote twice? Hiding  talk 12:36, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 4c

message: #This proposal is redundant with proposal two. Radiant_>|< 08:14, August 5, 2005 (UTC) As stated before, "American" should never refer to just the United States. Just because many Wikipedians are from the USA doesn't make that term any less factually wrong. Radiant_>|< 11:25, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
#:Comment Radiant, could you just clarify why you believe it is wrong, when it is the term the USA uses, and is common usage.  Do you mean confusing rather than wrong?  I don't think anyone is proposing we use it because the majority of wikipedians are American, but because it is the term used to describe the nationality of a citizen of the USA. Also, are you intending to vote twice? Hiding  talk 12:36, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: # Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: No Preference

message: For "of Foo" by-country categories (if adopted) the name of the country should appear as it does in the name of of the article about that country, with a lowercase "the" if needed for grammatical purposes.  Non-sovereign, disputed, supranational, and historical countries and geographic equivalents may be included if the articles to be categorized require it.  For reference, see List of sovereign states, List of dependent territories, and the following list.
(Note: Links to articles are shown only for reference; links obviously cannot appear in the actual title of a category.)
* "of the Republic of the Congo" for Congo-Brazzaville
* "of the Democratic Republic of the Congo" for Congo-Kinshasa (formerly Zaire):
* "of the People's Republic of China" (commonly known as "China")
* of the Republic of China (commonly known as "Taiwan")
** See also: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#Political_NPOV
* of the Republic of Ireland (for the modern-day country)
* of Northern Ireland (for the modern-day country)
* of Cyprus (Greek and Turkish Cyprus usually have combined categories)
* of Samoa (independent country)
* of American Samoa (U.S. territory)
* of Russia (for the modern-day country)
* of the Bahamas
* of Bosnia and Herzegovina
* of the British Virgin Islands
* of the Cayman Islands
* of the Central African Republic
* of Cote d'Ivoire
* of the Cook Islands
* of the Czech Republic
* of the Dominican Republic
* of the European Union
* of the Falkland Islands
* of the Faroe Islands
* of the Federated States of Micronesia
* of The Gambia
* of Georgia (country)
* of the Isle of Man
* of Kosovo
* of the Maldives
* of Malta
* of the Marshall Islands
* of the Netherlands
* of the Netherlands Antilles
* of the Philippines
* of the Pitcairn Islands
* of the Republic of Macedonia
* of Saint Kitts and Nevis
* of the Solomon Islands
* of Ukraine
* of the United Arab Emirates
* of the United Kingdom
* of the United States
* of the U.S. Virgin Islands
* of Vatican City
* of Wallis and Futuna
* of the Western Sahara
* of Azerbaijan
* of East Timor
* of Yemen (the modern-day country that unified former North and South Yemen in the 1990s)
* of North Korea
* of South Korea
* of Slovenia
* of Croatia
* of Serbia
* of Montenegro
* of Kosovo
* of the Republic of Macedonia
Supranational:
* of Serbia and Montenegro
* of the European Union
* of Ireland (island-wide)
Historical:
* of the Irish Free State (historical material only)
* of the Soviet Union (former country only)
* of Yugoslavia (former country only)
===Straw-poll votes===
* Support.  This is what got passed last time this issue came up.  This is mostly intended as an aid to determining is specific categories need to be renamed, and if so, to what, exactly. -- Beland 03:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 5: Standardization of names

message: * Support.  This is what got passed last time this issue came up.  This is mostly intended as an aid to determining is specific categories need to be renamed, and if so, to what, exactly. -- Beland 03:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Straw-poll votes

message: When historical and political complexities (such as mergers and splits) create articles that belong to two countries, do not create a "Foo of X and Y".  Instead, list articles in both "Foo of X" and "Foo of Y".  For example, "Foo of Russia" and "Foo of the Soviet Union", not "Foo of Russia and the Soviet Union".
===Straw-poll votes===
* Tentative support.  I'm sure there are weird cases that deserve exceptions, but I've seen some problems where you have "X", "Y", and "X and Y" categories, and it's a big mess.  (This is also what passed last time this came up.) -- Beland 03:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 6: Dual-list overlaps

message: * Tentative support.  I'm sure there are weird cases that deserve exceptions, but I've seen some problems where you have "X", "Y", and "X and Y" categories, and it's a big mess.  (This is also what passed last time this came up.) -- Beland 03:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Straw-poll votes

message: Please list your least preferred options here. Some people believe this can help lead to consensus. Others do not. 
#"of the United States of America" and "of the United States" -- Maurreen (talk) 08:43, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Least preferred

message: #The threshold for consensus isn't even mentioned. Specifying it after the fact would be bad.
#The issue of speedy renaming is unclear at best. 
#I'm not sure this poll represent the range of opinions and options. Maurreen (talk) 16:32, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: This poll should not be considered binding

message: If any subject is categorized by country or nation, there are at least two options for the title. The first  is "<object> of <nation>", e.g. "Category:Philosophers of Greece" and "Category:Rivers of Canada"; the second is "<nationality> <object>", e.g. "Category:Greek philosophers" and "Category:Canadian rivers". Some people assert the latter is more natural; some people assert the former is easier since the proper adjective for some nations isn't well-known.
An exception must be made for battles. For example, there could be both "Battles in France" (e.g. those taking place in the country of France, regardless of who fought in them) and "Battles of France" (e.g. those in which France was one of the participants, regardless of where they took place). 
===Philosophers of Greece, Rivers of Canada, etc===
#Radiant_>|< 09:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC) (note that "American football" is the proper name of a sport, thus we could have categories such as "American Football in <country>", just like "Soccer in <country>")
# This one clearly means the person is from the country.  The other could be people who speak the language (e.g. French Films).  I prefer this one, unless the category is dealing with language instead of nationality.  I also recommend soft redirects. -- Samuel Wantman 09:48, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal one

message: #Radiant_>|< 09:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC) (note that "American football" is the proper name of a sport, thus we could have categories such as "American Football in <country>", just like "Soccer in <country>")
# This one clearly means the person is from the country.  The other could be people who speak the language (e.g. French Films).  I prefer this one, unless the category is dealing with language instead of nationality.  I also recommend soft redirects. -- Samuel Wantman 09:48, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Philosophers of Greece, Rivers of Canada, etc

message: #Hidingtalk 09:27, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Greek philosophers, Canadian rivers, etc

message: #Of Canada when it is something clearly confined to the borders of Canada, e.g. :Category:Buildings and structures of Canada. Canadian when it applies to vaguer items that includes content related to things Canadian, even outside of Canada, e.g. :Category:Canadian literature. For instance Jim Carrey is a Canadian actor in that he is an actor with a Canadian citizenship, but he is quite clearly not an actor of Canada in that he does, and has never done, any of his acting in Canada. - SimonP 13:28, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
#I think the distinction might be physical features (rivers of, buildings of, mountains of) vs. more abstract concepts like citizenship (pertaining to people related categories).  Note that the preposition isn't universally "of" (e.g. the "Cities in" subcats of :Category:Cities by country).  This is not to say we shouldn't write a rule that can be enforced, but that the rule will be more complex than "things of x" or "xian things".  -- Rick Block (talk) 13:59, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
#I think this is a better solution.  I believe where possible people should be categorised by nationality, whereas geography and history and the like is more sensical as of or in foo. Hiding  talk 16:56, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Depends on the situation

message: In the names of categories and articles, the United States of America should be referred to in a consistent way. The same applies to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and possibly other countries which have commonly abbreviated names. There are too many options here to make a majority vote practical. Instead, please sign your name and list two or three options that you find acceptable. Please do not specify which options you hate most, that isn't helpful.
Suggested options include,
*(the) United States of America, and (the) United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
*(the) United States, and (the) United Kingdom
*(the) United States, and Great Britain
*(the) USA, and (the) UK
*(the) U.S.A., and (the) U.K.
*(the) US, and (the) UK
*(the) U.S., and (the) U.K.
*America and the United Kingdom (or American and British)
Depending on the outcome of the first vote, this may turn into "Economy of the USA" or "USA economy", etc.
This list is not exhaustive, but it may be preferable for the naming to be similar - e.g. using "U.S.A." with the dots and "UK" without the dots is not particularly consistent.
===Vote here===
# USA / UK. Radiant_>|< 09:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC) (and have no problem with "United States" / "United Kingdom"). Radiant_>|< 11:25, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
#[[of] the] {USA|UK} dab (ᛏ) 09:37, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal two

message: # USA / UK. Radiant_>|< 09:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC) (and have no problem with "United States" / "United Kingdom"). Radiant_>|< 11:25, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
#[[of] the] {USA|UK} dab (ᛏ) 09:37, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote here

message: This proposal would favor common usage. 
This would make for less standardization among categories, but possibly more between categories and articles.
One real or perceived flaw with this proposal is that the "common usage" is not always easily defined.
One real or perceived benefit is that it would be in line with current WP standards for article naming.
===Vote===
#I think I like this best of all the proposals so far. Maurreen (talk) 17:59, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 3: Common usage

message: #I think I like this best of all the proposals so far. Maurreen (talk) 17:59, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: This proposal suggests adopting two existing guidlines, and settling one remaining issue.
===Proposal 4a===
This proposal favours using Wikipedia:Naming conventions (country-specific topics), which is an existing guidline to the effect that people should be categorised by nationality, whilst items of countries should be categorised of country.
One real or perceived flaw with this proposal is that standardisation should not preclude comon usage or flexibility.
One real or perceived benefit is that it is an existing guidline with established consensus.
====Vote====
# Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 4: Existing Policy

message: This proposal favours using Wikipedia:Naming conventions (country-specific topics), which is an existing guidline to the effect that people should be categorised by nationality, whilst items of countries should be categorised of country.
One real or perceived flaw with this proposal is that standardisation should not preclude comon usage or flexibility.
One real or perceived benefit is that it is an existing guidline with established consensus.
====Vote====
# Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 4a

message: # Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: This proposal favours using Wikipedia:Naming conventions (acronyms) , which is an existing guidline to the effect that U.S. with periods but UK without periods should be used when abbreviating the United States of America and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland respectively.
One real or perceived flaw with this proposal is that standardisation of abbreviation is not achieved.
One real or perceived benefit is that it is an existing guidline with established consensus.
====Vote====
# Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 4b

message: # Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: This proposal is to seek a preference on the term used to define nationality for the United States of America in the event of proposals 4a and 4b being accepted.  The choice then becomes one of American 
versus U.S.
American is thought to be common usage, however, it is also thought by some to cause confusion between the continent and the country.
U.S. is thought to reduce confusion, however, it is also thought not to be the most commonly used phrase.
====Vote====
#This proposal is redundant with proposal two. Radiant_>|< 08:14, August 5, 2005 (UTC) As stated before, "American" should never refer to just the United States. Just because many Wikipedians are from the USA doesn't make that term any less factually wrong. Radiant_>|< 11:25, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
#:Comment Radiant, could you just clarify why you believe it is wrong, when it is the term the USA uses, and is common usage.  Do you mean confusing rather than wrong?  I don't think anyone is proposing we use it because the majority of wikipedians are American, but because it is the term used to describe the nationality of a citizen of the USA. Also, are you intending to vote twice? Hiding  talk 12:36, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 4c

message: #This proposal is redundant with proposal two. Radiant_>|< 08:14, August 5, 2005 (UTC) As stated before, "American" should never refer to just the United States. Just because many Wikipedians are from the USA doesn't make that term any less factually wrong. Radiant_>|< 11:25, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
#:Comment Radiant, could you just clarify why you believe it is wrong, when it is the term the USA uses, and is common usage.  Do you mean confusing rather than wrong?  I don't think anyone is proposing we use it because the majority of wikipedians are American, but because it is the term used to describe the nationality of a citizen of the USA. Also, are you intending to vote twice? Hiding  talk 12:36, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: # Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: No Preference

message: For "of Foo" by-country categories (if adopted) the name of the country should appear as it does in the name of of the article about that country, with a lowercase "the" if needed for grammatical purposes.  Non-sovereign, disputed, supranational, and historical countries and geographic equivalents may be included if the articles to be categorized require it.  For reference, see List of sovereign states, List of dependent territories, and the following list.
(Note: Links to articles are shown only for reference; links obviously cannot appear in the actual title of a category.)
* "of the Republic of the Congo" for Congo-Brazzaville
* "of the Democratic Republic of the Congo" for Congo-Kinshasa (formerly Zaire):
* "of the People's Republic of China" (commonly known as "China")
* of the Republic of China (commonly known as "Taiwan")
** See also: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#Political_NPOV
* of the Republic of Ireland (for the modern-day country)
* of Northern Ireland (for the modern-day country)
* of Cyprus (Greek and Turkish Cyprus usually have combined categories)
* of Samoa (independent country)
* of American Samoa (U.S. territory)
* of Russia (for the modern-day country)
* of the Bahamas
* of Bosnia and Herzegovina
* of the British Virgin Islands
* of the Cayman Islands
* of the Central African Republic
* of Cote d'Ivoire
* of the Cook Islands
* of the Czech Republic
* of the Dominican Republic
* of the European Union
* of the Falkland Islands
* of the Faroe Islands
* of the Federated States of Micronesia
* of The Gambia
* of Georgia (country)
* of the Isle of Man
* of Kosovo
* of the Maldives
* of Malta
* of the Marshall Islands
* of the Netherlands
* of the Netherlands Antilles
* of the Philippines
* of the Pitcairn Islands
* of the Republic of Macedonia
* of Saint Kitts and Nevis
* of the Solomon Islands
* of Ukraine
* of the United Arab Emirates
* of the United Kingdom
* of the United States
* of the U.S. Virgin Islands
* of Vatican City
* of Wallis and Futuna
* of the Western Sahara
* of Azerbaijan
* of East Timor
* of Yemen (the modern-day country that unified former North and South Yemen in the 1990s)
* of North Korea
* of South Korea
* of Slovenia
* of Croatia
* of Serbia
* of Montenegro
* of Kosovo
* of the Republic of Macedonia
Supranational:
* of Serbia and Montenegro
* of the European Union
* of Ireland (island-wide)
Historical:
* of the Irish Free State (historical material only)
* of the Soviet Union (former country only)
* of Yugoslavia (former country only)
===Straw-poll votes===
* Support.  This is what got passed last time this issue came up.  This is mostly intended as an aid to determining is specific categories need to be renamed, and if so, to what, exactly. -- Beland 03:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 5: Standardization of names

message: * Support.  This is what got passed last time this issue came up.  This is mostly intended as an aid to determining is specific categories need to be renamed, and if so, to what, exactly. -- Beland 03:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Straw-poll votes

message: When historical and political complexities (such as mergers and splits) create articles that belong to two countries, do not create a "Foo of X and Y".  Instead, list articles in both "Foo of X" and "Foo of Y".  For example, "Foo of Russia" and "Foo of the Soviet Union", not "Foo of Russia and the Soviet Union".
===Straw-poll votes===
* Tentative support.  I'm sure there are weird cases that deserve exceptions, but I've seen some problems where you have "X", "Y", and "X and Y" categories, and it's a big mess.  (This is also what passed last time this came up.) -- Beland 03:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 6: Dual-list overlaps

message: * Tentative support.  I'm sure there are weird cases that deserve exceptions, but I've seen some problems where you have "X", "Y", and "X and Y" categories, and it's a big mess.  (This is also what passed last time this came up.) -- Beland 03:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Straw-poll votes

message: Please list your least preferred options here. Some people believe this can help lead to consensus. Others do not. 
#"of the United States of America" and "of the United States" -- Maurreen (talk) 08:43, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Least preferred

message: #The threshold for consensus isn't even mentioned. Specifying it after the fact would be bad.
#The issue of speedy renaming is unclear at best. 
#I'm not sure this poll represent the range of opinions and options. Maurreen (talk) 16:32, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: This poll should not be considered binding

message: If any subject is categorized by country or nation, there are at least two options for the title. The first  is "<object> of <nation>", e.g. "Category:Philosophers of Greece" and "Category:Rivers of Canada"; the second is "<nationality> <object>", e.g. "Category:Greek philosophers" and "Category:Canadian rivers". Some people assert the latter is more natural; some people assert the former is easier since the proper adjective for some nations isn't well-known.
An exception must be made for battles. For example, there could be both "Battles in France" (e.g. those taking place in the country of France, regardless of who fought in them) and "Battles of France" (e.g. those in which France was one of the participants, regardless of where they took place). 
===Philosophers of Greece, Rivers of Canada, etc===
#Radiant_>|< 09:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC) (note that "American football" is the proper name of a sport, thus we could have categories such as "American Football in <country>", just like "Soccer in <country>")
# This one clearly means the person is from the country.  The other could be people who speak the language (e.g. French Films).  I prefer this one, unless the category is dealing with language instead of nationality.  I also recommend soft redirects. -- Samuel Wantman 09:48, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal one

message: #Radiant_>|< 09:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC) (note that "American football" is the proper name of a sport, thus we could have categories such as "American Football in <country>", just like "Soccer in <country>")
# This one clearly means the person is from the country.  The other could be people who speak the language (e.g. French Films).  I prefer this one, unless the category is dealing with language instead of nationality.  I also recommend soft redirects. -- Samuel Wantman 09:48, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Philosophers of Greece, Rivers of Canada, etc

message: #Hidingtalk 09:27, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Greek philosophers, Canadian rivers, etc

message: #Of Canada when it is something clearly confined to the borders of Canada, e.g. :Category:Buildings and structures of Canada. Canadian when it applies to vaguer items that includes content related to things Canadian, even outside of Canada, e.g. :Category:Canadian literature. For instance Jim Carrey is a Canadian actor in that he is an actor with a Canadian citizenship, but he is quite clearly not an actor of Canada in that he does, and has never done, any of his acting in Canada. - SimonP 13:28, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
#I think the distinction might be physical features (rivers of, buildings of, mountains of) vs. more abstract concepts like citizenship (pertaining to people related categories).  Note that the preposition isn't universally "of" (e.g. the "Cities in" subcats of :Category:Cities by country).  This is not to say we shouldn't write a rule that can be enforced, but that the rule will be more complex than "things of x" or "xian things".  -- Rick Block (talk) 13:59, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
#I think this is a better solution.  I believe where possible people should be categorised by nationality, whereas geography and history and the like is more sensical as of or in foo. Hiding  talk 16:56, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Depends on the situation

message: In the names of categories and articles, the United States of America should be referred to in a consistent way. The same applies to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and possibly other countries which have commonly abbreviated names. There are too many options here to make a majority vote practical. Instead, please sign your name and list two or three options that you find acceptable. Please do not specify which options you hate most, that isn't helpful.
Suggested options include,
*(the) United States of America, and (the) United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
*(the) United States, and (the) United Kingdom
*(the) United States, and Great Britain
*(the) USA, and (the) UK
*(the) U.S.A., and (the) U.K.
*(the) US, and (the) UK
*(the) U.S., and (the) U.K.
*America and the United Kingdom (or American and British)
Depending on the outcome of the first vote, this may turn into "Economy of the USA" or "USA economy", etc.
This list is not exhaustive, but it may be preferable for the naming to be similar - e.g. using "U.S.A." with the dots and "UK" without the dots is not particularly consistent.
===Vote here===
# USA / UK. Radiant_>|< 09:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC) (and have no problem with "United States" / "United Kingdom"). Radiant_>|< 11:25, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
#[[of] the] {USA|UK} dab (ᛏ) 09:37, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal two

message: # USA / UK. Radiant_>|< 09:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC) (and have no problem with "United States" / "United Kingdom"). Radiant_>|< 11:25, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
#[[of] the] {USA|UK} dab (ᛏ) 09:37, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote here

message: This proposal would favor common usage. 
This would make for less standardization among categories, but possibly more between categories and articles.
One real or perceived flaw with this proposal is that the "common usage" is not always easily defined.
One real or perceived benefit is that it would be in line with current WP standards for article naming.
===Vote===
#I think I like this best of all the proposals so far. Maurreen (talk) 17:59, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 3: Common usage

message: #I think I like this best of all the proposals so far. Maurreen (talk) 17:59, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: This proposal suggests adopting two existing guidlines, and settling one remaining issue.
===Proposal 4a===
This proposal favours using Wikipedia:Naming conventions (country-specific topics), which is an existing guidline to the effect that people should be categorised by nationality, whilst items of countries should be categorised of country.
One real or perceived flaw with this proposal is that standardisation should not preclude comon usage or flexibility.
One real or perceived benefit is that it is an existing guidline with established consensus.
====Vote====
# Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 4: Existing Policy

message: This proposal favours using Wikipedia:Naming conventions (country-specific topics), which is an existing guidline to the effect that people should be categorised by nationality, whilst items of countries should be categorised of country.
One real or perceived flaw with this proposal is that standardisation should not preclude comon usage or flexibility.
One real or perceived benefit is that it is an existing guidline with established consensus.
====Vote====
# Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 4a

message: # Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: This proposal favours using Wikipedia:Naming conventions (acronyms) , which is an existing guidline to the effect that U.S. with periods but UK without periods should be used when abbreviating the United States of America and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland respectively.
One real or perceived flaw with this proposal is that standardisation of abbreviation is not achieved.
One real or perceived benefit is that it is an existing guidline with established consensus.
====Vote====
# Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 4b

message: # Support Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: This proposal is to seek a preference on the term used to define nationality for the United States of America in the event of proposals 4a and 4b being accepted.  The choice then becomes one of American 
versus U.S.
American is thought to be common usage, however, it is also thought by some to cause confusion between the continent and the country.
U.S. is thought to reduce confusion, however, it is also thought not to be the most commonly used phrase.
====Vote====
#This proposal is redundant with proposal two. Radiant_>|< 08:14, August 5, 2005 (UTC) As stated before, "American" should never refer to just the United States. Just because many Wikipedians are from the USA doesn't make that term any less factually wrong. Radiant_>|< 11:25, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
#:Comment Radiant, could you just clarify why you believe it is wrong, when it is the term the USA uses, and is common usage.  Do you mean confusing rather than wrong?  I don't think anyone is proposing we use it because the majority of wikipedians are American, but because it is the term used to describe the nationality of a citizen of the USA. Also, are you intending to vote twice? Hiding  talk 12:36, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 4c

message: #This proposal is redundant with proposal two. Radiant_>|< 08:14, August 5, 2005 (UTC) As stated before, "American" should never refer to just the United States. Just because many Wikipedians are from the USA doesn't make that term any less factually wrong. Radiant_>|< 11:25, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
#:Comment Radiant, could you just clarify why you believe it is wrong, when it is the term the USA uses, and is common usage.  Do you mean confusing rather than wrong?  I don't think anyone is proposing we use it because the majority of wikipedians are American, but because it is the term used to describe the nationality of a citizen of the USA. Also, are you intending to vote twice? Hiding  talk 12:36, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: # Hiding  talk 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: No Preference

message: For "of Foo" by-country categories (if adopted) the name of the country should appear as it does in the name of of the article about that country, with a lowercase "the" if needed for grammatical purposes.  Non-sovereign, disputed, supranational, and historical countries and geographic equivalents may be included if the articles to be categorized require it.  For reference, see List of sovereign states, List of dependent territories, and the following list.
(Note: Links to articles are shown only for reference; links obviously cannot appear in the actual title of a category.)
* "of the Republic of the Congo" for Congo-Brazzaville
* "of the Democratic Republic of the Congo" for Congo-Kinshasa (formerly Zaire):
* "of the People's Republic of China" (commonly known as "China")
* of the Republic of China (commonly known as "Taiwan")
** See also: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#Political_NPOV
* of the Republic of Ireland (for the modern-day country)
* of Northern Ireland (for the modern-day country)
* of Cyprus (Greek and Turkish Cyprus usually have combined categories)
* of Samoa (independent country)
* of American Samoa (U.S. territory)
* of Russia (for the modern-day country)
* of the Bahamas
* of Bosnia and Herzegovina
* of the British Virgin Islands
* of the Cayman Islands
* of the Central African Republic
* of Cote d'Ivoire
* of the Cook Islands
* of the Czech Republic
* of the Dominican Republic
* of the European Union
* of the Falkland Islands
* of the Faroe Islands
* of the Federated States of Micronesia
* of The Gambia
* of Georgia (country)
* of the Isle of Man
* of Kosovo
* of the Maldives
* of Malta
* of the Marshall Islands
* of the Netherlands
* of the Netherlands Antilles
* of the Philippines
* of the Pitcairn Islands
* of the Republic of Macedonia
* of Saint Kitts and Nevis
* of the Solomon Islands
* of Ukraine
* of the United Arab Emirates
* of the United Kingdom
* of the United States
* of the U.S. Virgin Islands
* of Vatican City
* of Wallis and Futuna
* of the Western Sahara
* of Azerbaijan
* of East Timor
* of Yemen (the modern-day country that unified former North and South Yemen in the 1990s)
* of North Korea
* of South Korea
* of Slovenia
* of Croatia
* of Serbia
* of Montenegro
* of Kosovo
* of the Republic of Macedonia
Supranational:
* of Serbia and Montenegro
* of the European Union
* of Ireland (island-wide)
Historical:
* of the Irish Free State (historical material only)
* of the Soviet Union (former country only)
* of Yugoslavia (former country only)
===Straw-poll votes===
* Support.  This is what got passed last time this issue came up.  This is mostly intended as an aid to determining is specific categories need to be renamed, and if so, to what, exactly. -- Beland 03:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 5: Standardization of names

message: * Support.  This is what got passed last time this issue came up.  This is mostly intended as an aid to determining is specific categories need to be renamed, and if so, to what, exactly. -- Beland 03:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Straw-poll votes

message: When historical and political complexities (such as mergers and splits) create articles that belong to two countries, do not create a "Foo of X and Y".  Instead, list articles in both "Foo of X" and "Foo of Y".  For example, "Foo of Russia" and "Foo of the Soviet Union", not "Foo of Russia and the Soviet Union".
===Straw-poll votes===
* Tentative support.  I'm sure there are weird cases that deserve exceptions, but I've seen some problems where you have "X", "Y", and "X and Y" categories, and it's a big mess.  (This is also what passed last time this came up.) -- Beland 03:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 6: Dual-list overlaps

message: * Tentative support.  I'm sure there are weird cases that deserve exceptions, but I've seen some problems where you have "X", "Y", and "X and Y" categories, and it's a big mess.  (This is also what passed last time this came up.) -- Beland 03:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Straw-poll votes

message: Please list your least preferred options here. Some people believe this can help lead to consensus. Others do not. 
#"of the United States of America" and "of the United States" -- Maurreen (talk) 08:43, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Least preferred

message: #The threshold for consensus isn't even mentioned. Specifying it after the fact would be bad.
#The issue of speedy renaming is unclear at best. 
#I'm not sure this poll represent the range of opinions and options. Maurreen (talk) 16:32, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: This poll should not be considered binding