Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Male Unbifurcated Garment

message: ====Additional Comments by the Author====
As I've previously mentioned on the article's Talk page (which I highly encourage you to visit so that you'll know why I wrote the article in the first place), the term "MUG" is not a made-up word (ergo, there's no neologism as some errantly claim).  It's an acronym standing for Male Unbifurcated Garment.  The reason this term was coined more than a decade ago is because of it's breadth in scope - it encompasses the more than 70 types of skirts and dresses commonly worn around the world by approximately 40% of the world's male population.  That's 1.4 Billion people, folks, which is extremely signficant.  The terms "skirt" and "robe" simply don't cut it, as they exclude most of the various types of MUGs.  Furthermore, a "kilt" is but one type of MUG, and although it's perhaps the most common one known to those of western culture, by sheer numbers it ranks about 20th on the list of MUGs, so that's not the correct term, either.  Given these considerations there was a clear need for a term or acronym which accurately encompasses and describes the many non-bifurcated garments worn by men throughout the world.  Hence the acronym, MUG.
Furthermore, given the considerable, dare I say, "ignorance", of those throughout the minority Western culture with respect to men who wear MUGs throughout the world, there was a clear need for a Wiki article that addresses this issue, hopefully to educate/enlighten, apparently primarily those from Western cultures, that the concept of men wearing skirts, kilts, robes, etc. is strange only to those from Western cultures.  To the other 90% of the world it's fine, and to at least 40% of the world, it's a normal form of dress for men.  This doesn't mean that men from other cultures always wear MUGs.  But it does mean that they often do, as is entirely accepted by their societies, which, in toto, outnumber the Western societies by about 10 to 1.  Given the 40%, those societies that commonly wear MUGs outnumber western societies by approximately 4 to 1.
While Wiki is indeed housed in the US, please keep in mind that it's accessible to far more non-Westerners than Westerners.  In fact, the country with the highest Internet access per capita is Korea, not the U.S.  In Seoul, Internet connection speeds are currently 10 Mbps.  Compare that to 1.5 Mbps for the average US city.  Even in the US capitol of Washington DC it's only 1.5 Mbps.  Other cities with more forward thinking, such as Las Vegas, it's between 2.5 and 5 Mbps.
The point isn't to slam America.  It's to point out that Western culture is only ubiquitous to Western civilization, which is but a small (1/10th) percentage of our planet's population.  There is a lot more out there than most people from the West realize, in terms of culture and fashion.  Although I'm an American, I live and work in Germany.  While most of the fashion/styles are very similar, some things acceptable in the US aren't accepted here, and vice-versa.  In other countries, fashion is very restrictive, while in others it's quite open.  Just because something is different does not make it "weird".  It might seem weird to you, but to someone from Tibet the concept of men wearing pants is not just "weird" - it's illegal.
The point is that everyone views this topic from their own experiences.  I ask that you put those aside for a moment and at least attempt to view them from a more global perspective.
Finally, before slamming this entry simply because it's outside the scope of your particular culture, please remember that many cultures have access to Wiki, and in most of those cultures the concept of men wearing MUGs is perfectly normal.
Thank you for your patience and understanding as we strive to ensure Wiki isn't just about thrusting Western civilization on the rest of the world, but instead becomes a way for everyone to increase their understanding of everyone, and everything, outside their normal perspective.
In closing, if you need proof that MUGs actually exist, here are dozens of pictures from around the world:  MUGs From Around The World.  Please note that the most commonly seen MUG by Western civilization is the robe worn by Catholic priests and other members of the clergy.  Dr1819 19:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More comments 

message: As I've previously mentioned on the article's Talk page (which I highly encourage you to visit so that you'll know why I wrote the article in the first place), the term "MUG" is not a made-up word (ergo, there's no neologism as some errantly claim).  It's an acronym standing for Male Unbifurcated Garment.  The reason this term was coined more than a decade ago is because of it's breadth in scope - it encompasses the more than 70 types of skirts and dresses commonly worn around the world by approximately 40% of the world's male population.  That's 1.4 Billion people, folks, which is extremely signficant.  The terms "skirt" and "robe" simply don't cut it, as they exclude most of the various types of MUGs.  Furthermore, a "kilt" is but one type of MUG, and although it's perhaps the most common one known to those of western culture, by sheer numbers it ranks about 20th on the list of MUGs, so that's not the correct term, either.  Given these considerations there was a clear need for a term or acronym which accurately encompasses and describes the many non-bifurcated garments worn by men throughout the world.  Hence the acronym, MUG.
Furthermore, given the considerable, dare I say, "ignorance", of those throughout the minority Western culture with respect to men who wear MUGs throughout the world, there was a clear need for a Wiki article that addresses this issue, hopefully to educate/enlighten, apparently primarily those from Western cultures, that the concept of men wearing skirts, kilts, robes, etc. is strange only to those from Western cultures.  To the other 90% of the world it's fine, and to at least 40% of the world, it's a normal form of dress for men.  This doesn't mean that men from other cultures always wear MUGs.  But it does mean that they often do, as is entirely accepted by their societies, which, in toto, outnumber the Western societies by about 10 to 1.  Given the 40%, those societies that commonly wear MUGs outnumber western societies by approximately 4 to 1.
While Wiki is indeed housed in the US, please keep in mind that it's accessible to far more non-Westerners than Westerners.  In fact, the country with the highest Internet access per capita is Korea, not the U.S.  In Seoul, Internet connection speeds are currently 10 Mbps.  Compare that to 1.5 Mbps for the average US city.  Even in the US capitol of Washington DC it's only 1.5 Mbps.  Other cities with more forward thinking, such as Las Vegas, it's between 2.5 and 5 Mbps.
The point isn't to slam America.  It's to point out that Western culture is only ubiquitous to Western civilization, which is but a small (1/10th) percentage of our planet's population.  There is a lot more out there than most people from the West realize, in terms of culture and fashion.  Although I'm an American, I live and work in Germany.  While most of the fashion/styles are very similar, some things acceptable in the US aren't accepted here, and vice-versa.  In other countries, fashion is very restrictive, while in others it's quite open.  Just because something is different does not make it "weird".  It might seem weird to you, but to someone from Tibet the concept of men wearing pants is not just "weird" - it's illegal.
The point is that everyone views this topic from their own experiences.  I ask that you put those aside for a moment and at least attempt to view them from a more global perspective.
Finally, before slamming this entry simply because it's outside the scope of your particular culture, please remember that many cultures have access to Wiki, and in most of those cultures the concept of men wearing MUGs is perfectly normal.
Thank you for your patience and understanding as we strive to ensure Wiki isn't just about thrusting Western civilization on the rest of the world, but instead becomes a way for everyone to increase their understanding of everyone, and everything, outside their normal perspective.
In closing, if you need proof that MUGs actually exist, here are dozens of pictures from around the world:  MUGs From Around The World.  Please note that the most commonly seen MUG by Western civilization is the robe worn by Catholic priests and other members of the clergy.  Dr1819 19:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional Comments by the Author

message: I've clearly demonstratrated that Google hits for this particular topic number in the millions.  Against, please stop attempting to desecrate the importance of this article by posting non-effective, inappropriate, or intentionally misdirected Google searches.  Thank you.
*Response  Non-notable response.  Seriously, folks - this isn't a flash in the pan - nor is it something that's "all over the Internet."  I'm a world traveler, having visited more than 35 countries over the last 15 years.  This is simply human observation.  For people to sit back at their computers at home and rail against what people have been doing for centuries is absolutely absurd.  Ignorant, at best, deceitful at worst.  Do you honestly belief those of us who've visited or who live in various countries where MUGs are the norm for men will simply cast a blind eye to your comments?  At the very least you're rude, an affront to the normal styles of menswear for many countries.
My developing this Wiki project was determined precisely in response to the extremely myopic comments posted herein.  It's abundantly clear that most Westerners havent' a clue when it comes to men's fashion throughout the world.  Instead of objectively examining something slightly different from their own upbringing (one opening, not two), they tend to slam on it, using the many comments and suggestions given below in an attempt to "discredit" manners of dress that have been existence for tens of thousands of years for no other reason than it's not been in existence during their short 20 to 50 year lifespan, and then, only in their very limited part of the world.
This is a pathetically ridiculous excuse to use while recommending the termination of an article which stands to signicantly broaden most people's understanding of male apparel around the world.
:Yes, there are millions of hits for Mugs, which we already have an article for, so no need for this one. Mdwh 09:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Googling

message: *Comment: This page was getting extremely hard to follow, given that its purpose is for people to vote on whether or not the article should be deleted. I moved discussion unrelated to voting onto the talk page. Please, if you've already voted on the fate of this article, continue any discussion on the talk page. Catamorphism 22:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *This is not a vote. Just zis Guy you know? 23:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More comments 

message: *Response  Why people keep trying to pin the term "neologism" on an acronym is beyond me, particularly when it's been in use for two decades.  You people can't possibly be that ignorant!  Dr1819 00:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  more comments 

message: As I've previously mentioned on the article's Talk page (which I highly encourage you to visit so that you'll know why I wrote the article in the first place), the term "MUG" is not a made-up word (ergo, there's no neologism as some errantly claim).  It's an acronym standing for Male Unbifurcated Garment.  The reason this term was coined more than a decade ago is because of it's breadth in scope - it encompasses the more than 70 types of skirts and dresses commonly worn around the world by approximately 40% of the world's male population.  That's 1.4 Billion people, folks, which is extremely signficant.  The terms "skirt" and "robe" simply don't cut it, as they exclude most of the various types of MUGs.  Furthermore, a "kilt" is but one type of MUG, and although it's perhaps the most common one known to those of western culture, by sheer numbers it ranks about 20th on the list of MUGs, so that's not the correct term, either.  Given these considerations there was a clear need for a term or acronym which accurately encompasses and describes the many non-bifurcated garments worn by men throughout the world.  Hence the acronym, MUG.
Furthermore, given the considerable, dare I say, "ignorance", of those throughout the minority Western culture with respect to men who wear MUGs throughout the world, there was a clear need for a Wiki article that addresses this issue, hopefully to educate/enlighten, apparently primarily those from Western cultures, that the concept of men wearing skirts, kilts, robes, etc. is strange only to those from Western cultures.  To the other 90% of the world it's fine, and to at least 40% of the world, it's a normal form of dress for men.  This doesn't mean that men from other cultures always wear MUGs.  But it does mean that they often do, as is entirely accepted by their societies, which, in toto, outnumber the Western societies by about 10 to 1.  Given the 40%, those societies that commonly wear MUGs outnumber western societies by approximately 4 to 1.
While Wiki is indeed housed in the US, please keep in mind that it's accessible to far more non-Westerners than Westerners.  In fact, the country with the highest Internet access per capita is Korea, not the U.S.  In Seoul, Internet connection speeds are currently 10 Mbps.  Compare that to 1.5 Mbps for the average US city.  Even in the US capitol of Washington DC it's only 1.5 Mbps.  Other cities with more forward thinking, such as Las Vegas, it's between 2.5 and 5 Mbps.
The point isn't to slam America.  It's to point out that Western culture is only ubiquitous to Western civilization, which is but a small (1/10th) percentage of our planet's population.  There is a lot more out there than most people from the West realize, in terms of culture and fashion.  Although I'm an American, I live and work in Germany.  While most of the fashion/styles are very similar, some things acceptable in the US aren't accepted here, and vice-versa.  In other countries, fashion is very restrictive, while in others it's quite open.  Just because something is different does not make it "weird".  It might seem weird to you, but to someone from Tibet the concept of men wearing pants is not just "weird" - it's illegal.
The point is that everyone views this topic from their own experiences.  I ask that you put those aside for a moment and at least attempt to view them from a more global perspective.
Finally, before slamming this entry simply because it's outside the scope of your particular culture, please remember that many cultures have access to Wiki, and in most of those cultures the concept of men wearing MUGs is perfectly normal.
Thank you for your patience and understanding as we strive to ensure Wiki isn't just about thrusting Western civilization on the rest of the world, but instead becomes a way for everyone to increase their understanding of everyone, and everything, outside their normal perspective.
In closing, if you need proof that MUGs actually exist, here are dozens of pictures from around the world:  MUGs From Around The World.  Please note that the most commonly seen MUG by Western civilization is the robe worn by Catholic priests and other members of the clergy.  Dr1819 19:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional Comments by the Author

message: :*Response - What in the world is "male gender panic," and how does it have any possible bearing on the term "MUG?"  Dr1819 19:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm saying that the only reason why someone would call a skirt a "male unbifurcated garment" is that they wish to wear one but are insecure about their gender identity. Skirts are notable, a term used by a small percentage of neurotic men in Western culture isn't. By the way, replying to every single comment is really not going to sway people in your favor. WP:NOT a soapbox. Catamorphism 20:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're comments that men who wear skirts are experiencing gender identity insecurities are totally unfounded, and totally off-target, as men have worn skirts since the dawn of mankind.  Furthermore, the term "skirt" is but one of more than 70 subsets of normal male dress found throughout the world that falls into the overall category of MUG (Male Unbifurcated Garment).  Kilts are not skirts, and neither are the many other terms used to describe other forms of MUGs worn by men, hence the term MUGs, which accurately encompasses all unbifurcated garments worn by men throughout the world.
Finally, why do you and others persist in throwing out terms like "neurotic?"  This isn't a homosexual issue.  It's not a gender identity issue.  It's not a psychological issue.  It's a fashion issue, and I'll thank you and the other administrators of Wiki to familiarize yourselves with global fashion trends before you make any further ridiculous comments along these lines.
Post-note:  My replying to every comment isn't intended to "sway people in my favor."  It's intended to highlight a clearly obvious deficiency in Western culture comprehension about the normative practices throughout the rest of the world, which happen to outnumber we Westerners by about 10 to 1.  If we can't get with the program when it comes to simple styles of male dress, how in the world are we supposed to become the world connoisseurs that we believe ourselves to be?  Turning back the clock 15 years, I can see how uninitiated I was as to the variences throughout the world.  But I cannot turn my back on 15 years of experience, either, experience which the vast majority of Westerners do not possess, I might add.  I'm not saying I'm better, but I am saying that after having visited 35 countries, I know a BIT more about variations in fashion throughout the world than most people slamming their uninformed opinions on this page seem to know.  It's these ignorances which cause people to leap at terms like "silliness" rather than take the time to examine the issue.  Dr1819 00:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Dr1819, as I said elsewhere, I lived for two and a half years in one of the countries (Tonga) that you've doubtless enrolled in your "skirt-wearing" stats, and I can tell you that you're grossly exaggerating. Cheap used Western clothing is ubiquitous in the Third World and men who wear tupenus, lavalavas, or lungis on some occasions wear cheap pants on others. It's true that they see "skirts" as a fashion option in a way that many Westerners don't, but that hardly merits the excited language you're using. Accusing us of ethocentrism if we don't fall in line behind you is over the top. Zora 21:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "male gender panic" 

message: You and others continue to erroneously splate the term "neologism" although I've clearly shown on several sites that this acronym cannot be neologistic (because it's an acronym - duh!), as well as the fact that it's been in use for more than 20 years.
STOP flaming this topic, ZORA.  Reality will continue to prevail over your personal preferences of the world as you would like to see it.  Wikipedia is all about expanding one's knowledge of the world as is.  It has absolutely nothing to do with attempts to corral world perceptions into extremely small Western Stereotypes.
*Comment (1) MUG is an acronym. "Male Unbifurcated Garment" is not. (2) A neologism remains a neologism until it becomes a commonly used part of the language. A word (or phrase) that's rarely used by very few for twenty years is still a neologism. Fan1967 22:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to [[User:Zora|Zora]]