Wikipedia talk:User pages/UI spoofing

message: Okay, it seems most people here believe the joke behind those fake message boxes has fallen flat several years ago, and it also seems most people here believe blocking users for such is excessive. Of course we have an easy other alternative: page protection. If some user insists upon revert warring to reinsert such a joke message box, protect the page until they get the clue that the box is undesirable. I'd estimate that shouldn't take too long. How's that? >Radiant< 13:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Inflammatory. Interfering.  Humiliating for users who are invested in their small piece of defiance. Patronizing. Extending admin authority to deciding which jokes are funny and which are flat. Provocative. Pushing a "you'll-do-as-you're-told-because-I-say-so" mentality in the user's face. Intrusive. Unnecessary. Widening the gulf between admins and "ordinary" users. Liable to lead to wheel wars. Overweening. Arrogant. Bishzilla don't like it. Otherwise ok. Bishonen | talk 18:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is "undesirable"? Why stop with the "new message" joke messages? I'm sure that for a number of people there a number of various "undesirable" things that could be removed from user pages with subsequent page protection (or users themselves for that matter). I can only guess that this is a tongue-in-cheek suggestion considering how wrong this concept is relative to Wikipedia:Protection policy.  18:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah...I hope Radiant's suggestion was a joke.  =)  Jumping cheese Cont@ct 01:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Easy solution

message: This whole debate is out of order. Well, not really, but I just love saying that. Has anyone even thought about the problem _behind_ all this? Why is there mediawiki UI in the content box, and, not, if nothing else, above the title? It shouldn't be _possible_ to spoof this, and I think making it possible was a bad move. --Random832(tc) 14:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is due to the inherent flexibility of the media wiki software. IANAD but it might be possible to make a kludge that prevented you from doing this. That would strike me as highly unecessary and would likely get in the way of more legitimate formating. JoshuaZ 15:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What would get in the way of more legitimate formatting? I'm not suggesting blocking people from using the style, I'm suggesting moving the real notice outside of the #content div entirely, so that no-one can put a fake notice where the real notice would then be. Having non-content inside #content is the kludge. --Random832(tc) 19:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Random is probably right, and I'd support making a change that made this less likely to be disruptive in the future. Putting it right under the site notice would probably work (and it could be smaller, for gods' sakes...). -- nae'blis 21:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can put anything anywhere using CSS.  Like this Be——Critical  Be——Critical 21:30, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Even easier solution 

message: Rather than perpetually referring to a latent but yet-non-existent policy about this, I have created a page about it: Wikipedia:Avoid imitating MediaWiki user interface elements. Feel free to improve it. This incident belongs on this WP:ANI subpage, but I thought that it might be helpful to have a definitive place where we can channel discussion about the proposed policy. Also... heh. User:Gracenotes/GUI - I wouldn't want to see a user page like that, would you? GracenotesT § 20:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed policy

message: I started what I thought would be a simple thread on ANI, less than 24 hours ago, because an administrator and another user were disagreeing on whether the banner was permissible, and my urging that there be no block without consulting came a few minutes too late, and I didn't want to address the user's unblock request without seeking some consensus. (My personal opinion was that the banner was annoying, but that blocking at that point was not appropriate.) I strongly urged in my introduction that the matter be kept in perspective. Everyone in this discussion has contributed in good faith, but I think it's fair to say that there are a lot more serious matters that have received a lot less attention than this issue has, both here and on VP. There's a lesson to be learned in that, though I'm not sure exactly what it is. Newyorkbrad 23:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Observation 

message: I confess I haven't read all of the above.  (I'm at work right now; I probably shouldn't have read or be replying to any of it.)
Practical jokes are fine.  But where do you draw the line between practical jokes and harassment or disruption?  It can be a fine line to draw, of course, but one aspect of the line is: it starts being disruption when the jokester can't tell that the joke is over.
A joke that was cute and clever, once, is not automatically cute and clever if repeated arbitrary numbers of times, or if left in place forever.
If, after demonstrating cute cleverness, a jokester refuses to take the joke down, if the jokester instead stands on ceremony and insists on some "right" to leave the joke in place forever, the community has a right to object.  In doing so, we are not suppressing creativity or saying that practical jokes are banned: we are, rather, objecting to what is well and truly a violation of WP:POINT.
With all of that said, though, we need to remember that not every offense is a blockable offense.  As others have noted, we don't want to turn this into another userbox war; we don't want the "cure" to be more disruptive than the disease.  Since people are touchy about having things deleted from their userpages, and touchy about being blocked for actions on their userpages, what if those objecting to the joke templates simply put a big red explanatory "THIS IS A LAME JOKE" banner next to the lame joke message banner?  (Now, it's true, people are touchy abut having that sort of thing added to their userpage, but the dynamics end up playing out quite differently if they try to delete the "LAME JOKE" banner, and the objecters simply re-add it.) --Steve Summit (talk) 21:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  yet more observations 

message: There's an obvious solution here. 1. We obviously want to work within a) the consensus of the community - or at least not against it b) policy. 2. We need some agreed process to ensure that happens and that IAR is not invoked. 3. Assuming that the community agrees to the principle, we should proceed to agree a means/process to further this. 4. A suggested process could be (subject to further community agreement): that 5) A user may ask another to remove the joke item, giving adequate reasons according to the policy. 6) The request should be endorsed by another user. 7) If the initial user refuses, or fails to remove the joke within seven days (or a specified time agreed by the community after we've considered other options), then 8) a formal request for removal may be placed on the appropriate requests page, indicating the applicable policies and right of appeal  9) the request must then be endorsed by three users (with a minimum of 300 edits to avoid socks). 10) A special template is placed on the user's page, alerting him to the request. 11) the community opines for 7 days (or a period otherwise specified). 12) an authorised person (we could call them 'joke removal clerks' and elect them for 3 month periods - again with a suffrage requirement for voters and some appropriate process)...then determines consensus. 12) After 7 days (to allow any appeals to be filed on the 'Request for Joke reviews' page) the user is required to remove the joke. 13) If, after 4 days he has refused to do so,   may be placed on his userpage. If he still declines a 'request for admin joke enforcement' may be filed, and after if, notwithstanding the aforementioned process the user still declines, then after consensus has be ascertained and due process followed, and certified as such by the administrative-clerk-in-charge (whom failing the deputy may, after due notice has been given, deputise for) so do whatever the hell needs done.--Docg 22:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that the above suggestion is intended as a parody of Wikipedia processes and this discussion and is NOT A SERIOUS CONTRIBUTION to this encyclopedia. Accordingly, and pursuant to Paragraph Five (5) of the Joke Item Removal Policy, I construe the foregoing contribution as a Joke Item and it is hereby requested that the said Joke Item be removed from this page within seven (7) days of this request. NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that if such removal is not timely effected, then I shall pursue a Joke Deletion Request to obtain the deletion and removal of said item, utilizing the appropriate procedures including, but not limited to, those set forth in Paragraphs Eight (8) through Thirteen (13) of said Joke Item Removal Policy. Proceed accordingly. Newyorkbrad 22:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right there behind you in that citation Newyorkbrad, right there behind you.  22:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: However, according to the aforementioned procedure and pursuant to my right as a defendant exercising the principle of principled objection to any administrative action, however envisaged which may, or may not, be carried out according to due process, I demand, protest and assert, without prejudice let or hindrance my  prior right to the last word.--Docg 22:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Application denied, with costs. Newyorkbrad 22:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  solution 

message: :I believe that the above suggestion is intended as a parody of Wikipedia processes and this discussion and is NOT A SERIOUS CONTRIBUTION to this encyclopedia. Accordingly, and pursuant to Paragraph Five (5) of the Joke Item Removal Policy, I construe the foregoing contribution as a Joke Item and it is hereby requested that the said Joke Item be removed from this page within seven (7) days of this request. NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that if such removal is not timely effected, then I shall pursue a Joke Deletion Request to obtain the deletion and removal of said item, utilizing the appropriate procedures including, but not limited to, those set forth in Paragraphs Eight (8) through Thirteen (13) of said Joke Item Removal Policy. Proceed accordingly. Newyorkbrad 22:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right there behind you in that citation Newyorkbrad, right there behind you.  22:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: However, according to the aforementioned procedure and pursuant to my right as a defendant exercising the principle of principled objection to any administrative action, however envisaged which may, or may not, be carried out according to due process, I demand, protest and assert, without prejudice let or hindrance my  prior right to the last word.--Docg 22:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Application denied, with costs. Newyorkbrad 22:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Notification

message: Per the fairly clear consensus about certain aspects of the joke "new message" banner discussions I have intiated a proposal to begin crafting a guideline about them. 
I invite those interested in participating to join the discussion. Thanks.  18:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Crafting intial guidelines about "new message" joke banners

message: After much discussion and back and forth I have added a section and subsection to WP:UP arrived at by a number of the parties involved in this. I invite those who have been following these developments to review this new section. As well as the talk that developed it.  23:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New [[Wikipedia:User page]] addition