Talk:2006 Atlantic hurricane season/Archive 6

message: Soapbox moment:
I think it's worth stepping back for a minute to realize how important wikipedia is becoming to the internet/people in general nowadays.  There has been some very good press lately concerning this open source project, and it is deserved.  A number of hard-working people are maintaining these pages, and they should be commended for doing this on their own time, for no other reason than to help spread knowledge far and wide.  This is an idea a number of people in government service have embraced as well, including myself.  Because of the tropical cyclone project specifically, there has been a large increase in the use of our tropical cyclone rainfall page/climatology that I maintain for our purposes at work, which in the old days would have been printed out, bound, and left to collect dust in our office.  Now, anyone can access this information, and it can be updated at will.  With printed media, any kind of update took a concerted effort and a bit of time.  As someone who remembers well what life without the internet was like (for me, before 1993), it is amazing to see how quickly all this information can be tapped by anyone with only a few clicks/keystrokes.  This was the promise we all hoped for back then in the early days, and technology (this time) has not let us down. Thegreatdr 19:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you ever introduced yourself, I missed it. It's great to have someone from the HPC editing here, welcome aboard. :) --Golbez 20:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi!  I feel that it's an honor to be working at Wikipedia alongside such prominent specialists (at least to those of us who follow these things!).  Thank you for volunteering, too, and happy editing! :) --AySz88\^-^ 21:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of U.S. government pages in general get more attention because of Wikipedia that would normally go unnoticed.  I'm sure the Navy Hurricane site or even the NHC itself get a noticeable amount of traffic from Wikipedia links.  I would be interested to see their referral statistics. --tomf688 (talk - email) 22:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's very happy to hear, Thegreatdr. Bravo, Wikipedians. I'm proud of us. —BazookaJoe 01:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea, I must say it's great to have you here, David (or Mr. Ross or whatever you want to be called ;)), and you're exactly right. It's been very cool to see the development of the electronic age through my life, especially Wikipedia recently. Hurricanehink (talk) 03:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a pleasure to have you on Wikipedia, discussing the same things we are. I agree, technology has done millions, if not the billions of people around the world, proud. Double Dash 20:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia iss deh shizzit!!1 -Winter123 05:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Importance of this page to the World Wide Web/Internet

message: I don't get it. All you guys are putting these "INVEST" things up top...what are you talking about? What's an INVEST? Are you guys just posting the small tropical developments up on the talk page. I don't care, but it's kind of strange for someone who has no idea what you're doing. ☻ → JARED (t)  13:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: An INVEST is a system for potential development, monitored by the NHC and the Naval Research Lab. NSLE 13:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They come from this site, by the way:  —BazookaJoe 20:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: INVEST is the term used by the Navy to describe potential tropical cyclone formations. There are several different types of storm declarations used.  Wikipedians have their own overused declaration of possible development called an AOI or Area of Interest.  In previous years this meant that a user thought an area of convection had a chance of formation, but this year it has become overused and as such relegated to the appropriate subpage in the Talk section.  Consequences of last years active season I guess.  Invests are the official 'this may become something' title given to an area of convection.  These, as per convention, are listed at the top of the Talk page listed under the week of the month they formed.  In the section and discussion that ensues, many different strands of conversation occur, from talk about chances of survival to the potential impact on land and sometimes the occasional upgrade to Tropical Depression.  As for not knowing what we're doing?  That's okay, it took me most of the 2004 season to figure it out.  Ever since, I've had a blast here! - Bladeswin posting as 207.30.145.6 18:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Invest? 

message: Recently the "2006 storm names" section was recently renamed as "Storm names".  I have no problem with this rename; in fact I have considered doing such a rename before.  The problem is that this section is named "<Year> storm names" in every other seasonal article - so if we are going to rename it the rename needs to be done into every article to keep them consistent.  See for instance 1950 Atlantic hurricane season, 1972 Pacific typhoon season, 2001 Pacific hurricane season.  The only exception to the current rule (besides this article) may be the Southern Hemisphere seasons - see 2002-03 Southern Hemisphere tropical cyclone season. — jdorje (talk) 17:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree there should be a rename in all the Northern hemisphere seasons, its not that many articles. What is done in this article makes sense "2006" is unneeded in "2006 Storm names", it is the "2006 Atlantic hurricane season" after all… The southern hemisphere has the problem that there are many naming lists. If and when the SH is split up like is proposed then the same structure should be adopted there.--Nilfanion (talk) 17:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  2006 storm names 

message: I think/or propose that the 2006 Atlanitc hurricane season should have a seperate article for its stroms just as 2005 did. Alastor Moody (talk) 23:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We already had the discussion, located here and here. In my personal opinion, only storms that have a threat to land should have articles operationally, and wait until the storm is over for fish storms. The storm history can use archived Tropical Weather Outlooks and discussions, while impact can rely on news reports and preliminary storm reports from NWS offices. Hurricanehink (talk) 02:01, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  And having a "List of" article is entirely dependent on the activity of the season. If it ends up like 2004, then there's no point to it. Titoxd(?!?) 02:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is why I still disagree with what was done to the 2005 article, as length is no reason to change the structure of an article...but I won't get into that same old discussion again. bob rulz 09:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, length is a reason to change the structure of an article.  See WP:SIZE.  --tomf688 (talk - email) 15:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 2006 Atlantic Storm Articles

message: Sorry if this has been dicusssed during the close season, but why have we adopted a system where the current data is shown in an infobox, and the exactly the same data again right next to it in the main text? Isn't this sort of contrary to normal Wikipedia practice? The inevitable consequence is they get out of step, as I see Chris just has...--Keith Edkins ( Talk ) 13:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. While I don't really know anything about Wikipedia conventions regarding this (I'll take your word for it), I think it's really annoying to have an infobox that takes up half the page that repeats the same information that's seen in the "current storm information" section. bob rulz 14:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The current storm information should include as much as possible that isn't in the infobox - the reach of TS/Hurricane strength winds, etc, which are all mentioned in NHC public advisories. Chacor 14:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplicated current information 

message: *http://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/tc_pages/tc_home.html
In case you don't know, this is the page a lot of people use. They are usually first to do the upgrades. However, they do nothing on their own. All of the maps they use are based on either NHC data or JTWC data. When regarding upgrading systems, I'm fairly sure they base it on model data, seeing as their upgrades occur at the same time as the models come out. So, what should we do about them? The models, and thus NRL, has been changed last minute in the past, like Pilar/16E last year in the EPAC. Personally, I think they are official, and once the models come out we should be able to use that data in the articles. --Hurricanehink (talk) 18:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea, I agree. íslenska hurikein #12 (samtal) 23:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I have to disagree. I don't consider them official. -- WmE 23:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The NRL is a great source of imagery and gives very strong indicators as to what is going to happen. However it isn't official so we cannot use it like as an in-article-source.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The NHC is the official RSMC, so nothing is official until they say so. Chacor 01:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But the NRL uses the model data, which is official (the wind speed at least), isn't it? --Hurricanehink (talk) 01:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As we saw with Pilar/TD16-E last year, it's not fully believable. I don't object using NRL to update talk pages (except calling them "Tropical Storm Chris" when it's still TD3 from the NHC, rather I won't object to "03L.CHRIS"), but not articles. Chacor 01:21, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, yea, but Pilar is a very rare occurrence, and hasn't been repeated before or after then. What about saying something like this on the articles, "Computer models upgraded the depression to Tropical Storm Chris at 20Z on August 1"? Wikipedia is about all of the information, and some people might not know of NRL or the models. It would be very informative, especially for such a well-known website, to have such upgrades before the NHC does, even if it says something like the above. If, by chance, the models are wrong, then we could say, "Computer models upgraded the depression to Tropical Storm Chris at 20Z on August 1, though it was not until 9 hours later that the National Hurricane Center officially upgraded the system" or "... on August 1, though the National Hurricane Center retained the system as a tropical depression". Hurricanehink (talk) 01:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would not use the exact term "upgraded the depression to Tropical Storm Chris". This would be the NHC's job to officially do so. Perhaps a minor mention, like "computer models noted the system as a tropical storm, which was confirmed X hours later by the NHC when it upgraded the system to Tropical Storm Chris". That's a bit wordy, however. Chacor 01:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the only time models should be mentioned is before the NHC upgrades it. Once they upgrade it, you can just remove the models mention. Hurricanehink (talk) 01:49, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Wow, I feel like a complete idiot. OK, I suppose that settles it, and sorry about the waste of time. Hurricanehink (talk) 20:09, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a great site- They are good at spotting potential storms. -Winter123 21:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They're pretty good at it too. Many times, they will have a storm correctly updated before the advisory is even out. They have outstanding imagery. They have alot of sophisticated images that a seasoned meteorologist could get lots of information out of. My tropical cyclone imagery archive is healthily stocked with them. -- §HurricaneERIC§ archive 03:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NRL Monterey Marine Meteorology Division 

message: Just posting a note here that the August update of NOAA's tropical cyclone forecast comes out on August 8th. --Coredesat talk. ^_^ 23:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To prevent confusion, it's 13 for just the rest of the season, not including the 2 already, which makes a total of 15. —AySz88\^-^ 16:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now I'm confused. What period does the forecast cover exactly? Is Chris included implicitly like Beryl (making the total 16 - that a big drop of 1) or is it the first of the 13?--Nilfanion (talk) 17:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh it is 15. The official forecast from the CSU is here. They've dropped the TS/H/IH predictions by two across the board.--Nilfanion (talk) 17:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NOAA August update & Gray-Klotzbach forecast

message: The NOAA's August mid-season outlook is now out. No major changes from the start; "NOAA scientists warn this year's relatively quiet start is not an indication of what the remainder of the season has in store." Chacor 15:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NOAA August outlook

message: If you're going by maximum sustained windspeed, it's Alberto - 70mph, 995mb.  But if we're going by minimum pressure, it's actually Zeta with 994mb...
--SomethingFunny 22:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Strongest storm of the year, Cyclone Monica...--Nilfanion (talk) 22:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Which was technically 'the previous year' too, if we're going purely by the official seasons. I mean, we ticked over the official season for the southern hemisphere on July 1. How dare you inflict northern hegemony upon them! Sheesh, it doesn't matter. Hurricane Frances was, for a short time, the strongest storm of September 2004 - even though *gasp* it formed IN AUGUST! Imagine that. (I'm not yelling at you, Nilf.) --Golbez 23:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The question is, do we go by mph or mbar? Some seasons in the past put both, so why don't we do that? Hurricanehink (talk) 19:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be by pressure.  --Holderca1 19:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, pressure always takes precedence. Pobbie Rarr 20:28, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically, use pressure unless it is unavailable, in which case use windspeed. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 20:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

text: No, Zeta was a 2005 storm.  --Holderca1 20:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We already had this arguement. Zeta was a 2005 storm that occurred in the 2006 storm season. Thus, any records it causes in 2006 will be part of 2006. Hurricanehink (talk) 20:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not our argument to make, otherwise that is original research.  --Holderca1 20:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not original research. Zeta was in 2006, simply put. That's a fact you can't ignore. Here is the discussion that, based on consensus, Zeta was part of the 2006 season. Hurricanehink (talk) 20:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you please cite the source? --Holderca1 21:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For what? Zeta was in 2006, you can see that in the TCR. Hurricanehink (talk) 21:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That says Zeta was part of the '06 season.  I didn't see that it said that in the report, maybe I missed it.  --Holderca1 21:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit conflict)Unfortunately, we have no explicit source saying it either way. The reason why there was a consensus that Zeta's records in 2006 belong for the 2006 season is because a) it was in 2006, b) the tropical cyclone season lasts from January 1 through December 31. The evidence for B is the fact that Tropical Storm Ana in 2003, despite forming in April, as part of the 2003 Atlantic hurricane season. Similarly, there was a storm in February '52, January '78, and March of '08, all presumably part of their respective seasons. Holderca1, in regard to what Golbez said, what if Frances in 04, which formed in August, reached its peak intensity in September, and no other storms surpassed it? Wouldn't Frances, by definition, be the strongest storm in September? Just push the date a few months later and you have the same situation. Frances would have been the strongest in January, and, until another storm surpassed it, the strongest storm in the following year. Hurricanehink (talk) 21:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference to Frances does not apply here, I am not arguing that Zeta wasn't the strongest storm of 2006(calendar year), I am arguing that it is the strongest storm of the 2006 season (which is the title of this article).  It seems highly unlikely now, but say this season was just as active as last season and we arrived to the name Zeta again, according to your logic, that would give us two Zetas in the 2006 season.  --Holderca1 21:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What about the pre-season examples? The hurricane season goes from January 1 to December 31. Thus, Zeta was part of the 2006 season, and yes, hypothetically, there could be two Zetas in the same seasons. Hurricanehink (talk) 21:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All of those formed in the same calendar year, the NHC even stated that the 2005 season didn't conclude until January 6, 2006.  --Holderca1 21:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Zeta occurred in 2006. We're talking about the strongest storm of 2006, not necessarily the strongest storm of 2006 that formed in the 2006 season. bob rulz 21:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But the title of this article is 2006 Atlantic hurricane season, not Atlantic hurricanes of 2006.  --Holderca1 21:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, but Zeta did occur during the 2006 season. It just so happened to have formed in the 2005 season. bob rulz 21:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe according to some Wikipedia contributors, but the NHC never says this.  --Holderca1 21:34, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seasons can technically overlap. True, the NHC never said this...so I guess it's just a matter of opinion. I honestly don't care either way, since this discussion has a 99.9% chance of being rendered moot by the end of the season anyway. bob rulz 21:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: They're too busy this time of year. Hurricanehink (talk) 21:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zeta ceased to exist on January 6th, the discussion on where Zeta belongs has been going on since then.  The NHC was hardly busy January through May.  --Holderca1 21:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Zeta formed in 2005, used a name from a 2005 list and is included in NHCs annual reports for 2005. I think that makes it part of the 2005 season, just like Alice was part of the 1954 season. What matters is when the storm formed, not when it reached peak intensity. -- §HurricaneERIC§ archive 23:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is correct.  Since it uses the name Zeta, it designates it as part of the 2005 season.  If it were indeed part of the 2006 season, it would have been Alberto.  Regardless of when it dissipated, it remains that the storm is part of the 2005 season, and Alberto is the strongest storm of the 2006 season so far. --EHoffman 21:20, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

text: WP:LAME. --Golbez 21:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, thegreatdr, that's the most sensical (is that even a word?) post I've read in a long time. I too think it's overly excessive to mention the "official" start and end dates to every single hurricane season article. bob rulz 01:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just be sure that when this section is archived (hopefully soon, as the point will be moot in several hours when Ernesto breaks 993), it is archived to the Zeta page, so people redirected from WP:LAME will get to see the whole measure of lunacy.  Why can't storms be well-behaved (or wikipedians for that matter)? Runningonbrains 01:45, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Zeta has brought out the epitome of WP:LAME. --Elliskev 02:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strongest storm of the year?