Talk:Van, Turkey

message: Move: Van (turkey) → Van, Turkey
common use for cities
*Support Tobias Conradi 23:08, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Move history

message: I just googled this silliness -- and was amazed to find it (not that I believe). --Moby 11:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monster of Lake Van 

message: Awhile back a user added this to the Van (disambiguation) page, and I couldn't help but wonder, do all these cities (Van, Mersovan, and Yerevan—come from the same word? None of these articles except Merzifon discuss the etymology of the word at all, and it would be interesting to know if the words are related. —Khoikhoi 05:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tatvan, Mersovan, and Erivan 

message: The city's Armenian population was devastated (what is devastated, killed?) during World War I by Ottoman troops as a part of the Armenian Genocide <--- there are sources that says Van rebelled, and I provided them, and it was deleted, it even syas below Van reblled and the rmenians were taking sides with Russians). According to Turkish accounts (according to Turkish but not according to Armenian accounts?), with Russian forces (and Armenian volunteer untis, you forgot that) approaching Lake Van, the regional administrator ordered the execution of five Armenian leaders (of whom were rebel leaders, right?) and a revolt resulted in Van on April 20, 1915 against the Turks (and the Turks were killed were thjey not?) and in favor of the Russians (this sentence negates the above claim that says this was all becuase of AG and not any other reason). However, most historians agree (which historians, where, how many, what country) that the Armenians, hoping to avoid slaughter, fled to the mountains of Van to defend themselves against the Turks (if they fled then they obviously weren't killed, so how can they be devasted?)The Banality of Indifference: Zionism and the Armenian Genocide - Page 42 by Yaïr Auron. The anti-Turkish and pro-Russian sentiments were in the hopes of being rescued from Turkish massacres (why were they so sure they were going to be massacred, becasue they rebelled?). The Russians finally captured Van in late May of 1915 (anfd killed al the Turks, right?)
So this whole thing is gone. See my version which is sourced and unbiased. --Oguz1 16:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  loaed weasel words, pov, missing syntax, unveriable information 

message: What, no famous turkish or kurdish people from Van?  87.113.119.89 (talk) 16:56, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Kapamacian readded by an IP, is surely not a notable pertson. We even untill now have not any reliable sources on him.  Andranikpasha (talk) 16:08, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

text: I reverted some propagandist material. Andranikpasha (talk) 16:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hudavendigar, you have been reverted at least twice. I think it is time for you to start discussing your changes.  VartanM (talk) 18:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Please show some reliable and third party sources for "Muslims of Van suffered terribly".--HyeTashnak (talk) 13:13, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Denial is a terible thing, one should know one's history and learn from it -
Perhaps you should try acting on your own advice rather than hypocritically giving it out to others. Meowy 18:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

text: If they were born in Van, or spent much of their adult lives there, then they were from Van. Meowy 02:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then they were Turkish-Armenian, Ottoman, Ottoman-Armenian, or Turkish.  Yes, it would help if they were at all famous.--Murat (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And which are you saying aren't famous? Of course some names, such as Arshile Gorky and Mkrtich Khrimian, stand head and shoulders above all the others in terms of the extent of their fame. Meowy 15:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

text:  Some exist mostly in other wiki pov inserts only.  I guess it is ok, an emotional issue I realize.  More significantly, why deny or ignore the fact that the were born Ottoman citizens, in Ottoman Turkey or Turkey and carried Ottoman passaports when they moved to their next country?  How come Vankulu Efendi is just that, and Ruhi Su is "Turkish", and another is Russian-Armenian, and another Armenian?  How come none is Ottoman or Turkish-Armenian?  What is the criteria?  It looks like other motives are in play.--Murat (talk) 23:35, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems to be a guide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Famous_Residents - however lots of Wikipedia articles seem to ignore it, so it would be difficult to use it alone as a basis to exclude a name. That said, I do agree that as a category within entries, the "Famous people" one is often overfilled.  Meowy 16:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous people 

message: "resulting in an uprising in Van on April 20, 1915, against the Turks and in favor of the Russians. However, most historians agree that the Armenian residents, hoping to avoid the slaughter inflicted on the rural populations surrounding Van, defended themselves in the Armenian quarters of the city against the Turks[7]. The anti-Turkish and pro-Russian sentiments were in the hopes of being rescued from Turkish massacres. The Russians finally relieved the Armenian defenders of Van in late May 1915"
-  Most Hisorians do NOT agree with the above.  References added to the contrary, McCarthy and Feigl have been removed repeatedly.
- Armenian rebellion(s) came first, then the Government attempt to quell by force.  The article creates the opposite impression.
- Throughout this article references are made to "self-defense" and such fake-named articles in an obvious attempt to hide the simple fact this was a very violent armed rebellion.
- This was a rebellion as decribed above: "defended themselves in the Armenian quarters of the city against the Turks".  Fighting against their very own state and army.
- Violence against Armenians who did not share the bloody vision of the "Revolutionaries" were treated worse than the Turks.  Any attmpt at presnting this fact has also been snuffed by POV editors.
- Russians did not "relieve" Armenians, they invaded a Turkish city helped by the Armenian insurgents.
- Even the "official" Armenian propaganda puts the start of the so-called genocide AFTER the rebellion at Van.  Events here precipitated even harsher measures by the Government later.  Any attempt to put this in perspective have been rudely removed.  The article contradict this simpe fact by referring an Armenian Rebellion as Genocide.
- There is NO mention of the majority Turkish population of the city AND the province.  One would not know that this is an ancient Turkish city.  Massacres of the Muslims in the area have been left out and any any reference to this fact has been removed repeatedly.
- The whole article seems to be about Armenians and their sufferings.  The fact that this is an old Turkish city and its non-Armenian culture, people and history has been systematically cleansed off the article.
- This article, like many others, reperesents the worst of ethnic propaganda on Wikipedia.  It is uninformative and apallingly biased.--Murat (talk) 18:12, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am removing the POV tag. Hudavendigar has had almost 2 months to produce material to back up his allegations of bias, or to add aditional valid material into the article. He has not done any of that. I suggest that he has not because the material and the bias does not exist; a POV tag cannot remain in an article forever, and Hudavendigar's above comments are just POV warring, indicated by his use of phrases like "so-called genocide". Meowy 21:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

text: I see that Hudavendigar, returning from a 6-month absense, has reinserted the pov tag. I have removed it for exactly the same reasons as I gave on my 2nd Feb 2009 post. Meowy 14:49, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

text: You can't just do drive-by POV tagging of an entire article! You have given no valid points to indicate why you think the entire article is POV, or even why parts of the article are POV. All I see is your 6Dec post is a POV diatribe that could have come from a card carrying MHP fanatic. Meowy 17:05, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that all you are intent on doing is inserting propaganda into Wikipedia articles. Your Turkish nationalist propaganda sources have no place in any encyclopedia. Meowy 17:12, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Some specfics on Murat's propaganda. His lies include "First Western visitors to the area were witnesses to the total destruction of the Muslim sections of the city after the Armenian retreat, and as Niles and Sutherland of USA observed: "Villages said to have been Armenian were still standing whereas Musulman villages were completely destroyed". The web page cited for this "Niles and Sutherland report" does not exist. Either it has disapeared in the couple of hours between Murat posting it and me checking it (unlikely), or (more likely) it did not exist when he inserted it and he actually lifted that content straight from a Turkish propaganda website.  Content from this "report" (which is actually a tawdry pack of lies) has come up before on the Bitlis article, when Murat tried to use it to insert inaccurate content into the article. At the time I wrote "regarding Bitlis, the claim that every Muslim house was destroyed is so moronic that that statement alone should damn the entire report. Bitlis is full of old Muslim buildings to this day, and has thousands of intact pre-WW1 Muslim houses (I guess that might be why you wanted the section on the architecture curtailed - it disagrees with the lies in that report)". Murat has shown some audacity by citing a propaganda website produced by the Turkish government to deny the Armenian Genocide for his claim that "this was the most organized one of a series of Armenian revolts in the area, wich also took place while the Ottomans had engaged Great Powers at multiple fronts, it was a key factor in the government's decision to forcibly remove the Armenian population from Eastern Anatolia"! Actually the "deportations" (i.e. masssacres) had started a week earlier and it was those massacres which had prompted the Armenian population of Van to rise up in self-defense. Murat's obscene misuse of the word "revolt" to characterise that self-defense is just another indication of this editor's aim of writing propaganda and of duplicating material found on the most rabid Armenian Genocide denialist websites. And as for his final claim "Modern Van had to be rebuilt from start some distance away from the scene of this destruction". This is his own OR, and shows his complete ignorance of the subject. Modern Van was refounded as a city in the 1930s and was actually laid out on the district of old Van called the "Garden City" (called that because many of the houses there had tree-lined back gardens). The main streets of that district's urban centre actually correspond to the main roads that still exist in the town centre of modern Van. Meowy 01:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed Objectivity

message: maybe you dont know but, there is another city called TATVAN that located opposite side of lake van. does anyone know "TAT" means opposite or against in any language? maybe urartu language??  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.42.237.249 (talk) 21:10, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The older name of Tatvan is Tadvan. So if its name means anything, it would the word "tad" we should be asking about. Meowy 02:38, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  What does "tat" mean? 

message: I added some notes about the recent population. No one believes the official statistic in this case, as per the sources mentioned, but this could partially be because of seasonal migration as well. Additionally I added a part about demographics in the Ottoman Empire and moved some stuff from the "genocide" section into there, to contextualize the issues when dealing with population statistics in that area and provide a NPOV which lets the reader decide for him/herself. Grant bud (talk) 03:21, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: In Van I met a man who took part in the census gathering, and he told be that he thought the population was at least 700,000. He said that the local population was very reluctant to reveal actual family sizes, a lot of the data written down by the census gatherers was just guesswork, and that many men in Van had several wives and those unofficial wives and their children were not recorded on the census.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.143.19 (talk) 20:34, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Population

message: "According to Taner Akçam(!), citing Osmali Belgelerinde Ermeniler 1915-1920, after the Turks took back the city from the Russians they killed all Armenians in the city..."  I suppose no need to question the credentials of this esteemed researcher who is known for his "objective" analysis of the topic!  Analysis is all he can do since he does not access a lot of original material.  In any case, what is strange about this statement is that there is no real reference, I mean what did the Ottoman documents say, that "they killed them all"?  Even more strange is the fact that missionaries and diplomats who visited the area a short time later found a small population of Armenians in the cneter of the city, under the protection of the soldiers since the remaining and returning Muslim inhabitants were anxious for revenge.Murat (talk) 03:16, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Less propaganda, more facts 

message: It's claimed to be Odessa on this page, but on Odessa's page, there is no reference to this at all. In fact, Odessa is said to be twinned with Istanbul. 86.9.227.102 (talk) 00:04, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Sister City

message: Was the "A park in the city center." picture that has statues and a fountain created by Armenians, Kurds or turks? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 16:22, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  That fountain 

message: Hi all, 
First, Taner Akcam - according to his own article - is a historian and sociologist, not a writer and genocide researcher. 
Second, the subtitle is about WWI and not the so-called genocide. If there is info about a genoicde that needs to be added then fine. Remember WWI was not about massacres but a war with multidimensional aspects. Let us treat it that way. 
Third, it seems like there is a group of editors who have an agenda and they keep pushing it. It is clear as day. They keep making the same type of topic additions and reverting whatever does not fit their POV. They need to be addressed.
Shubuhat (talk) 20:26, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Shubuhat, I recommend you to not removes content about the Armenian Genocide. This really not seen good at wikipedia, and most of the editors who do this usually get blocked quite quickly. You already mentioned a "so-called" genocide, which is a tough stance. There are several articles on Wikipedia about the Armenian Genocide and many are sourced also with Taner Akcam. I'll let the historian and sociologist part but the rest goes back in. The main part of the Armenian Genocide happened during the WWI, and it was a major event in Anatolia during the WW I, special in VanParadise Chronicle (talk) 10:52, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Not addressing all the points at hand, nor those of Murat above. Ömer Nasuhi Bilmen (talk) 09:48, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

text:  I agree. The main event is the WWI and if need be Armenian Rebellion added to the section header. Tehcir policy was not something specific to Van ata ll. I will make adjustments, so let me know if anyone has any valid comments. Also Taner's claim "all died" is clearly contradicts facts. No evidence. As late as 1919 groups of Armenians were living in Van.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.247.165.26 (talk) 16:22, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: 63.247.165.26, you need to register an account. There is consistent socket puppetry and some biased users put an edit stop. They cannot stand to hear about the atrocities Armenian gangs committed and want to keep writing history according to their own POV with their so-called genocide. Let's try and keep this place balanced: hearing from more than one side. Ömer Nasuhi Bilmen (talk) 12:09, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: hypocrite sock Shadow4dark (talk) 12:34, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

text:  I was hoping to see more constructive contributions here. It seems legitimate issues raised above. 1) the title of the section clearly should refer to WWI, and specifically parts related to history of Van, not larger events of WWI 2) the reference by Akcam to "all killed" is clearly wrong and not correct for a whole number of reasons. Should be questioned. I expect meaningful inputs. Thanks.Murat (talk) 23:14, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  WWI and Taner Akcam 

message: :::: Is this a armenian Wikipedia or free NPOV Wikipedia?? All pages is against muslims and Turks! Peacetowikied (talk) 12:54, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: No it isn't a Armenian Wikipedia but it is certainly also not a place for Turkish (governmental) propaganda. Veysel Eroglu is a current Turkish Minister and the Turkish government denies the Armenian Genocide. If you want to include a Turkish/Kurdish Genocide perpetrated by Armenians I suggest you get a better source.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 08:45, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

text: WP does not blindly follow "official" sources. We use the best available scholarship, to a large extent sources independent of the parties to the dispute . --Macrakis (talk) 13:27, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish/Kurdish genocide perpetrated by Armenians 

message: 109.199.229.118 (talk) 11:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: It's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. MediaKill13 (talk) 13:03, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 26 August 2020 

message: This article, just like many other Eastern Anatolian related articles like Erzurum, is heavily biased towards pro-Armenian views. Just because history and facts state that the Armenian massacres occurred because of their rebellion does not make one a so-called genocide denier. I for one don’t believe in the exaggerated claims. Back to the point, this article carries heavy POV by radical Armenian editors. It needs a review and update by non-biased neutral editors. 786wave (talk) 08:28, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: as opposed to whitewashed to appease both sides. The academic consensus is that this "view" is what happened, a part of the Armenian Genocide  Facebook would be a better place for such expressions, Here citations and references matter most. And last of all,  Murdering and deporting entire civilian populations because of rebellions is still Genocide. if there are sharks in the water, do you kill the sharks, or dry the entire sea? And no, justifying Genocide is another form of Genocide denial. By comparison, try saying "the jews had it coming by 1940" while referring to the holocaust and see what happens. - Kevo327 (talk) 10:34, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heavily biased towards Armenian views 

message: The Battle of Malazgirt opened the region for Turkish migrations, and the region has been inhabited by Turks and Kurds since then. Please read the article and don’t deny it. :) 786wave (talk) 17:41, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: . and the other ethnicities like Armenians conveniently disappeared to confort your beliefs? Right? - Kevo327 (talk) 18:49, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Battle of Malazgirt 

message: There is a paragraph that is meant to cover the WWI history of Van but currently it only covers one single historical topic, controversial AG, which already has countless articles dedicated to it. In essence, the paragraph does not cover the WWI history of Van, which was rather eventful. It does not even cover a period, but seems to be pushing a particular topic at the expense of Van or history of it. I am editing the heading accordingly and will build it up more and invite other editors also to do so. Bring your opinions here please. Murat (talk) 19:08, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The section does discuss WWI history. There's room for expansion, but there's no reason for such expansion to come at the expense of the genocide-related content, which is already pretty succinct. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  WWI History  

message: Who are some notable people from Van? 2A01:C23:8C60:F000:A932:C8AE:4E72:25B0 (talk) 22:29, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable people? 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
* 
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:40, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: Van has 2 co-mayors. The other one is Neslihan Şedal/ The source is the same as for Zeydan. --95.24.63.92 (talk) 23:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add co-mayor