Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest/Archive 3

message: This page used to be called "vanity guidelines" and has recently been renamed. The reason behind that is that the term "vanity" can be seen as derogatory by people outside Wikipedia, who are unaware that we use a "local" definition of the word that does not match the most common outside definition. The problem with the term is that if an article on a NN business is deleted, it is quite likely that the deletion debate will show up on Google, and be listed pretty high in the search rankings. The owner of that business may then become very upset that we're calling him vanity, especially if he didn't write the article himself. This might sound like a hypothetical problem, but since Wikipedia has become the world's 10th most popular website, it happens a lot, and people complain about it over OTRS. Hence, the new name. We should avoid using derogatory terms if at all possible. >Radiant< 08:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One puppy's opinion, but anyone who doesn't realize we're using vanity in the extremely common useage as in Vanity press is not very well informed. There is nothing defamatory about this accurate use of the word. See further comments below, section titled Vanity. KillerChihuahua?!? 17:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd agree on principle. However, I don't think that in this case it is a bad move. Not because there's anything wrong with the term vanity, but rather because the new title addresses a wider range of problems. Of course, the WP:VAIN shortcut was a lot easier to remember. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 17:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name change 

message: The William Connolley vanity page, which has only been protected from several attempts at deletion by Connolley himself and his fellow Wikipedia administrators, is seemingly exempt from the rules against vanity pages. If you object to this page, make your feelings known. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.35.73.41 (talk • contribs) .
:You do realise this was created by User:Ed Poor, a long time ago? Charles Matthews 19:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have concerns about Connolley's notability, you could always list the article on WP:AfD, following the proper process. As is, it's not in any way a vanity page since Connolley did not write it. Of course, you're blocked for disruption, vandalism, and personal attacks anyway, but if you still care when you get back... --tjstrf 21:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Admininistrator's Vanity Pages - [[William Connolley]] 

message: There as very recent arbComn case that ruled quite differently than what this section attempts to describe. See: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba/Proposed_decision#Proposed_final_decision. Wording changed accordingly. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We can bring up the arguments to this page, if you so wish. My arguments have been that making a distinction specifically about disciples of gurus, or senseis, is improper, as there are other relationships that are as stronger (or stronger) in other religious, political and other human endeavors. Notwithstanding the example of Engels and Marx (that may be restored) a Wikipeda guideline that attempts to warn followers of eastern traditions on the perils of editing article about their teachers, while not warning similarly biased people from western traditions, is in my view a poor display of understanding these traditions, and a non-so-veiled western bias. I see no difference between the possible problems an editor would have in keeping his edits in full compliance with out content policies if he is a member of the Opus Dei editing the article on Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer, a member of the Lawton Foundation editing Fidel Castro, a Chabad Lubavitch follower editing The Rebbe, or a neophyte from the Drepung Monastery editing the article on Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama.  Thus, any guideline or policy should not make distinctions based on people affiliations, be these religious, political, scientific, or otherwise: Wikipedia guidelines needs to be religious (as well as political) agnostic, in my view. I would delete the whole section altogether. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Disclosure: I have a teacher, that some may consider a religious leader or "guru" ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It looks to me like jossi's compromise is reasonable; would you agree, Charles? Jayjg (talk) 15:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, because it has cut out the word 'disciple'. This is unhelpful. It is not helpful on this page to have exhortations to respect NPOV. As it says at the top of the article, this page is about the recognition of COI, and that requires more. 'You should be partiularly careful' is an unhelpful wording, because, as of right now, Wikipedia:Editing with a conflict of interest is supposed to cover that issue. So I object to the blurring that has gone on. I would like to see this section stay on-topic for this page, not wander off. Charles Matthews 12:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Blurring? Do you mean the disagreement over using that wording? The new wording does not exclude discipleship, and includes additional situations. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I would like that section to address the specific problems of "close relationships" without making specific arguments based on  value judgements that single out a specific worldview.  I would appreciate that rather than saying "I object", the arguments presented are discussed, the concerns addressed, and new wording that can be agreed, explored. I am also of the understanding that no guideline can override policy. Thus, having a guideline that may contradicts two  established policies of WP:NPOV and WP:NPA, is not acceptable, so caveats and explanations are needed.  ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Note that there is a request to merge Wikipedia:Editing with a conflict of interest. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm well aware of that, and have expressed my opposition. The page on editing with a COI starts off like this: In keeping with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy, edits where there is a clear conflict of interest, or where such a conflict can or might be justifiably assumed based on the proximity of the editor to the subject, are strongly discouraged. That is clear, that is firm, and I think that is a good statement of where policy on COI is heading, and has always been heading. That is how the guideline stands. One can say that the wording currently standing here approximates to that, in a sense: You should be particularly cautious when editing an article about a person you have a close relationship with. If you cannot abide strictly by Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:No original research, then you should avoid editing such articles. This is what you have inserted. There are problems with that. Firstly, it a weaker form; it suggests that anyone who feels that they can handle their COI can indeed edit. In that way, it merely restates something about NPOV. Secondly, it removed the element of deprecation of editing with a COI which is utterly clear on Wikipedia:Editing with a conflict of interest. Thirdly, it is on the wrong page. As I have pointed out, the introduction to this page defines its scope, and the advice is not within that scope. Charles Matthews 16:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem with that argument, Charles. But you are not addressing the core of mine. My concern is one about making a statement that is based on a narrow view of what discipleship is, and the wording about edits being "suspect" (your wording:  Edits by those whose loyalties to such a teacher transcend any stake in this project may have to be treated as suspect. You are assuming (a) these loyalties transcend a stake in the project; and (b) these edits have to be treated as suspect. Let me give you an example, with your wording all edits made by Sikhs to the Guru Granth Sahib will be labelled "suspect", as they consider that book to be their Guru. Would it not be a similar situation if an editor is loyal to a cause such as anti-abortion? (Check the talk page of any article about which there are stromg POVs...) What is the thinking (or may I say, bias) to say that discipleship is any different that other loyalties that exist that may be as strong or stronger? As long as an editor is able to comply with WP policies, he is welcome to edit any article regardless of his POVs, biases, and loyalties. If he is not able to comply, then we do not care if he has loyalties or not. Yes, anyone that not only feels capable but actually does comply to WP policies, can edit Wikipedia. I look forward to see a proposal that will bridge between our understanding on the subject. One alternative that I proposed before, is to delete that specific section. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll broaden out the principle, that those loyalties to [...] transcend any stake in this project, all you like. Fill in the ellipsis with anything that fits the bill, and, I should have thought, you have a fine, capacious version of 'conflict of interest'. But I am going to adjourn this discussion to your User Talk now. Charles Matthews 17:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A broading of the principle may work. Give it a go. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discipleship 

message: * Combined Charles Mathews' section on "Discipleship" and expanded it to include wording about "close relationships" in a more generic manner as per above arguments;
* Combined some sections that were related;
* Some copyedit for clarity;
* Expanded on the policy section;
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My edits 

message: "Avoid using the word "vanity" in a deletion discussion — this has created serious problems. Remember that such an accusation may be defamatory." Why? This is nonsense. "Vanity" is not defamatory. Strongly oppose inclusion of this "walking-on-eggshells because we may offend some thin skinned vanity editor" clause. KillerChihuahua?!? 17:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I could agree with that. Let us find wording that presents a way to avoid flamewars in AfDs for these reasons. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree as well. Jayjg (talk) 18:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not the word 'vanity', it is the form of argument that attacks notability. If you end up saying that a distinguished person, for example an academic, is not distiguished (which is the notability criterion generally applied in that career), you are attacking their livelihood and may be libelling them. Charles Matthews 12:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done a copy edit to tighten it, as it was repetitive and a bit patronizing; I also removed some bits that seemed to make no sense (e.g. the bit about defamation via pseudo-vanity). SlimVirgin (talk) 19:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vanity

message: The "Examples of conflict of interest" lists various types of material that is may be inappropriate to add. But nowhere in the guideline do I see anything about inappropriately removing information that may be perceived as negative. In my experience we have as much or more difficulty with the removal of information as the addition of it. Of course WP:BLP covers unsourced (or poorly source) defamatory material, but we should also mention that it is often inappropriate to remove properly sourced negative information. -Will Beback 22:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But those points currently fit better at the 'other' page, Wikipedia:Editing with a conflict of interest. For all the attention this page has had, I think that page is the key one. There are going to be various 'edge cases' here to argue over, but what the guideline is for editing is going to be crucial. Charles Matthews 11:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

text: "Ownership" of articles is already covered in WP:OWN and it applies to all editors, regardless if there is a COI or not. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 13:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Currently Wikipedia:Editing with a conflict of interest focuses almost exclusively on financial COIs (which are barely mentioned here). Perhaps when this is complete that page can be overhauled to complement this one. -Will Beback 16:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. The recent drive for this guidelines (formerly "Vanity" guidelines), was based mostly on these types of COIs, recently extended to financial and other obvious ones such a PR companies. The other page was only started on August 9, 2006 by User:Eloquence: See diff. There is a proposal on the table to merge these two, about which there is not yet consensus. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing negative info 

message: Really? (Prompted by User:Jossi cutting out the word 'follower'.) Let's go over to Isaiah Berlin:
In his own lifetime Engels desired no better fate than to live in the light of Marx's teaching, perceiving in him a spring of original genius which gave life and scope to his own peculiar gifts; with him he identified himself and his work, to be rewarded by sharing in his master's immortality.
This being from Berlin's Karl Marx, 4th edition p. 75. Well, that certainly says it all, for the 'close relationships' section, as far as I'm concerned. That attitude, or even a fractional part of it, could define 'too close', better than my efforts so far.
Therefore the toning down of 'follower' to 'associate' seems to me to fudge precisely the issue. I'll make it 'follower and collaborator', since there is plenty of academic support. Charles Matthews 11:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It might not be a bad idea to include the Berlin quote, even if only as a footnote. It's a good description of exactly the kind of attitude toward a person or group that would spark a conflict of interest in the editor. SlimVirgin (talk) 12:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

text: That is the opinion of Berlin. Surely other readers will be as suprised as I was when I saw the term "follower" associated with Engels. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 13:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Having said that, I do not object to having that example if accompanied with the quote as a footnote. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 13:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It definitely feels like Berlin is pretty off-base with this.  I understand why Berlin writes that, there's a certain school of Marxian hagiography that takes that line (Berlin not being a MarxIST, but still having a somewhat wrongheaded deference here).  Engels was much more important in his own light, and "colleague" (or maybe "junior colleague") is more in line.  Nonetheless, it seems like the error is fairly harmless, and having the footnote illustrates the point being made... even if Berlin is wrong, the type of hypotethetical relationship he describes is OK for "conflict of interest". LotLE×talk 16:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Engels not a 'follower' of Marx?

message: I propose additional wording to cover people involved in legal disputes with a person or organization that have an article in WP. Something along the lines of:
"If you have been involved in a legal dispute with a person or organization, editing the article about that person or organization, or about the legal dispute itself if ther is such article, may constitute a conflict of interest." ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 13:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good idea. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  COI and legal disputes 

message: Since my comments have effectively gotten lost in the process of moving, merging, and redirecting, I am reiterating them here.
I do not like the new guidelines in the third section because the hardline discourages voluntary disclosure of conflicts of interest, particularly in mild cases such as a non-PR employee editing a page about his industry or a politician editing a page about an issue she champions. Voluntary disclosure is often preferable to forcing people to contribute anonymously because it provides a better basis for open discussion and consensus building. I think many of the original comments on this leaned to this opinion as well. Voluntary disclosures should be made on the edit summary or on the article's talk page, and I would expect this to motivate other editors to review the edits pretty much automatically for NPOV. This is how all the codes of ethics that I am familiar with deal with CoI's. 
At the same time, this guideline should also point out that bias can be introduced by things as subtle as adding more material on one subject than another, and that paid contributors can easily wear down our volunteers and subvert the system. Frequent introduction of bias like this is a flagrant violation of WP:NPOV and should be easily blockable, regardless of whether voluntary disclosure has been made or not. I do not see the talk-page pre-article as a complete solution to this problem, and I don't think it received much support by others either. It is too easy to find a drone who will do your editing for you.
I think this proposal was prematurely promoted to a guideline, and I hope that people will still consider large changes to it. I think it should be rewritten to encourage voluntary disclosure and strict adherence to WP:NPOV, WP:CORP, WP:AUTO, etc. as a first remedy, but warn that prolific users with a pattern of violations shall be blocked, regardless of disclosure. Original Post:--Yannick 05:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: [Re: (2)] Well, we can't be sure of all that, can we? We impose the same standards: the point is rather than the monitoring will likely be stricter, and that declaring an interest invites that. Charles Matthews 16:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Of course it should not be implied that all edits are detrimental: the position has not changed because the reasons for objecting to any edit are just the same as before. I'll need to come back to things said above here.Yannick presumably posted before the 'declaration of interest' section was posted? Voluntary disclosure is obviously pretty much a synonym, in this context, but if there is some nuance between these terms we have to get into all that. Using 'bias' in discussions on NPOV is not my preferred term, basically because no one thinks the NPOV version is unique, and so there will be versions with more of this or more of that: partisans tend to look for 'bias' in preponderance, but if it might have been written by a fair-minded person we are not primarily worried about that. Charles Matthews 15:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Returning to this after editing the page a little: some questions in my mind. Do we actually want to encourage disclosures and declarations? I don't know. It seems worth discussing. It is easier to write a guide that is neutral about that point, is very severe about editing with disregard for conflict of interest (where the issue is that if some people maybe do not care what is good for WP, we certainly do), and mostly points out possible consequences of actions and possible ways to get round the worst of those. Charles Matthews 16:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Disclosing of COIs should be encouraged, not discouraged: it enhances transparency and it is an accepted practice. Pertinent questions may be: Should the good standing of an editor be diminished by such disclosures? Should such editor be penalized for making such disclosures? Shouldn't an editor's good standing with the community be judged by his/her contributions and commitment to the project, regardless of any COIs disclosed, rather? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voluntary disclosure 

message: As examples, I believe that the Wikipedia articles Jimmy Wales and Daniel Brandt have content different than a neutral encyclopedia would. I have no idea how this guideline should address the issue of conflict of intrest as applied to the community and the foundation and influential members. Maybe stick a label at the top of such articles? Stubify seems more extreme than needed and assume conflict of intrest is something we can magically overcome seems wishful thinking. (Although I do think Wikipedia is ok, but then I'm prejudiced aren't I?) WAS 4.250 17:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you may be describing a fairly straight NPOV issue. And the cases are probably somewhat different. Jimbo might be accused of being conflicted in editing his own biography, but the idea that he'd really put his own interests above those of WP in so doing is implausible. The Brandt article might be bad because not enough people like him to care; but he won't be alone in that and sheer neglect is not a COI issue. Or at least 'COI by omission' would be a sort of minor example: not removing unfounded accusations of adultery against your personal foe. Wouldn't come up that often. Charles Matthews 18:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The interactions of Jimmy Wales and Daniel Brandt, separately and quite oppositely, with regard to the Wikipedia community editing the articles on them and with regard to the articles themselves are long lasting, involved, significant, intricate, complex, and has resulted in changes in those articles. The article on Jimmy has attacted those who idolize and those who hate him resulting in a constantly changing article that is poorly written and odd in its emphasis and use of sources compared to what an article by nonwikipedians using sources we distain as "self-reference" would be. The article on Dan is more detailed and less friendly and more poorly written than it would be if Dan didn't keep threatening everyone who edits that article with lawsuits and other real world negative consequences. WAS 4.250 19:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: As applied to ourselves

message: To User:WAS 4.250: you have reverted the moving of the sections Declaring an interest and Defending interests back to the third section.
They belong in the third section precisely because they say you: the third section is talking to editors with a conflict of interest position to address. You say 'undermine', in your edit summary. If you look up the page to the comments of others under Voluntary disclosure, you will see different opinions. Please discuss here. What you have done cuts right across the article's basic organisation. Charles Matthews 16:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The structure does seem to be a little confused now. I'll try to sort it out. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Distribution of sections

message: I'm trying to tighten this a little, but without changing content or thrust. I've removed a few sentences but only because I couldn't see what they were getting at; e.g. "Such a declaration is a complicated thing. Perhaps: you show that you are someone who might have an apparent conflict of interest if your circumstances were fully known, by revealing some of those circumstances." Otherwise, I'm leaving the content intact, but hopefully a bit sharper. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess it came from here, I moved it to WP:ECOI because it was in the wrong place at that point, IIRC. It seems a good format device to attract attention to a key observation aimed at someone who really doesn't understand WP. If people say 'why wasn't I told?', we should be able to say, 'we tried'. That's wny the prominence. (The content is very apt: I know of a very good case.) Charles Matthews 18:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay. I edited it and removed the formatting, but I can put it back. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Copy edit

message: I edited this paragraph but then couldn't see the point of it, or rather couldn't see how it's exactly connected to conflict of interest, so I'm moving it here. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was in 'defending interests', as the kind of advice you need in dealing properly with the kind of things on pages that will catch the eye of any outsider landing here and getting annoyed. If this duplicates other advice, then let me know where. Charles Matthews 18:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I'll put it back. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

text: There is no such consensus about where to place criticism in articles. See Wikipedia:Criticism. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That was my copy edit. I'll fish out the original parapraph and put it back as it was. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed paragraph about criticism

message: I removed the following too, because it seems to be encouraging people to add material from company websites. All we're saying is: don't add it yourself, because you're being paid; find someone to add it for free instead! SlimVirgin (talk) 18:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Another paragraph removed

message: Analogy 1. A government statistician has to produce employment figures by best practice. The government will benefit if the figures are better. Conflict of interest can arise if there is political pressure for a change of methodology, not justified by the statistical theory, or if the political allegiances of the statistician have the same tendency to suggest slanting it. The government should only see benefit if the un-spun figures are better. 
Analogy 2. I thought last night about Japanese homes. It is a traditional comparison here, to say that we as Wikipedians leave all our outside interests 'at the door'. Expand on that: entering a Japanese home, you leave your shoes in a special area just inside the door. Three points:
* Bare feet are not required;
* No amount of wiping your shoes on the doormat will be enough;
* There is more to it, since you may have to take off shoes in a kimono shop or restaurant, and there is a cultural tradition behind it.
In just the same way:
* We don't ask for an impossible stripping away of personal views, expertise, areas of interest;
* We do ask for more than a cosmetic appearance of neutral language, and require the real deal, which is that people give up efforts to benefit outside interests other than by the addition of good-quality reference material to WP.
* We do have a wiki culture, and it is not defined by a short list of rules, and it is not to be assumed that guidelines exhaust it.
The common idea seems clear enough: stop trying to benefit yourself except by benefit to WP. If you can't manage that, you have a serious conflict of interest to address. We judge people on intention; as it says early on, the probable intention is the common indicator. 
Charles Matthews 11:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most that is covered in WP:NPOV#Bias, so it woulld be better to link to that than to reformulate here. Having said that I like the analogy of the removal of shoes at the door as it is very illustrative. It can maybe expand it to include that in Japan, after you remove your shoes, you change into slippers. In our case: the slippers of our content policies with which you are supposed to walk while in Wikipedia land. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 13:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

text: So if we judge on "intention", then if someone gets a bad thought, they should not be allowed to contribute in that area even if they do not bad action?! Intention only hurts when it is followed up by action that is in line with it. If someone may be intent on damaging based on the criteria but really are not, do they deserve to be punished, even if their edits objectively cause no harm? What if we think X has some "bad intention", but their edits turn out to be neutral? Wouldn't this delusional view potenitally color it and create "phantom bias" that would hurt their ability to contribute? 74.38.35.171 21:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I was referring to the spirit of what you said. That is already covered in NPOV when discussing bias (We don't ask for an impossible stripping away of personal views, expertise, areas of interest... but we expect you to conform to NPOV when you edit.) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Exactly my point. (For those who do not know the difference, ryokan is a traditional Japanese living quarter with tatami and washi sliding doors, and benjo is the traditional Japanese toilet: a hole in the ground, that even some modern houses still feature) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is it really so hard?

message: Does anti-vanity also deserve a mention here (or perhaps in WP:N)? It seems that some pages of non-notables are added mainly to express negative information about them. This edit to a disambiguation page is one example, and perhaps another can be found in Robert Morey, which is basically all criticism and not much positive content. --Flex (talk|contribs) 02:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:BLP. WAS 4.250 18:09, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anti-vanity

message: Hi.
I noticed this: "But even if we could verify Tom Cruise's favorite breakfast cereal, that is something that is typically not included in an encyclopedia.". But, why can't it be included? There seem to be some rules that still haven't been formalized yet, or perhaps I am missing something. 170.215.83.83 22:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unwritten rules? 

message: If this has already been covered, please direct me to the relevant conversation, but: doesn't this policy conflict a bit with user's right to privacy? In other words, it is it possible to suggest to someone that they are violating this policy without yourself violating the policy, in particluar "Posting another person's personal information (legal name, home or workplace address, telephone number, email address, or other contact information, regardless of whether or not the information is actually correct) is harassment, unless that editor voluntarily provides or links to such information himself or herself."  IronDuke 20:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, wasn't clear. It's like this: let's say I edit the Bill Gates article and change the lead to read "Bill Gates is the smartest human who has ever lived." After looking at some of my other edits to Microsoft, etc., you get suspcious. So you come to my talk page and you say, "IronDuke, you aren't by any chance Bill Gates, are you?" Well, if it turns out I am, aren't you violating my privacy? And yet, am I not violating COI by editing the Bill Gates in a hagiographic manner? IronDuke 14:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *If someone asks whether you're Bill Gates, they're not violating your privacy (they are likely incivil and incorrect, though). If he posts Bill Gates's home address and telephone number, that would be violating privacy. (Radiant) 15:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But it says "legal name" above. Thus, if you post that I am Bill Gates, you are violating that part of WP:STALK, no? IronDuke 15:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *If asked out of the blue, yes. If this could reasonably be implied from your on-wiki activities, then no. For instance, if John Doe is the founder of DoeCorp, and the article on DoeCorp is suffering WP:OWN issues from User:JDSomeone, it is not unreasonable to conclude that JDSomeone might be John Doe. In effect, the user has exposed himself. (Radiant) 15:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, he's exposed himself to being exposed, yes? If you, intrepid editor, are the only person who puts it together, it can stay secret of you keep it secret. But this gets back to my question... when may one essentially violate WP:STALK. I'm going to paste this conversation over there and see what people think. IronDuke 15:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not talking about "foolproof." What I'm saying is, we might be able to use something like "Revealing the identity of a Wikipedia editor may be acceptable if you have strong grounds for believing they are in violation of WP:COI." Fair? Too broad? IronDuke 15:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: *Too broad, I'd say. What matters is if the user posted his own personal information on-wiki, or if he's made it clear enough anyway without explicitly stating so (as in the John Doe example above). (Radiant) 15:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Point well taken and fair enough. Anyone else have an opinion on this? IronDuke 15:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some kinds of biased editing can lead to the natural conclusion that someone may have a conflict of interest and thus should not be editing certain articles in the first place. The real issue is the bias. Getting involved in outing an editor's real life identity is a waste of time as it is totally unnecessary for the purpose of requiring users who act like they have a COI to stay away from the articles in question. We can act according to known identities if they are provided and believed or act according to behavior and block/ban based on the appearance of COI. Editors are not allowed to wiki-lawyer their way to the disruption or biasing of Wikipedia. Using the rules to make Wikipedia worse is specifically outlawed (see WP:IAR and "Gaming the System"). WAS 4.250 20:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  And [[WP:STALK]] 

message: Is there a protocol for reporting users whose contributions are exclusively (or almost exclusively) to articles involving themselves? Regardless of notability, I mean. I've encountered more than one user recently who not only created/edited articles about themselves, organizations they're involved in etc. but seemed to have contributed nothing to Wikipedia beyond this edit, and I was wondering where this could be reported for investigation, as it doesn't seem to be outright vandalism. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 16:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:BLP has an associated noticeboard and group of volunteers that field issues related to it. A similar thing could be created for COI if there are enough volunteers to make it work. Any volunteers? WAS 4.250 00:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's a good idea, but I'm not sure I'm qualified. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 14:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there may be a need for a noticebaord or other forum to handle articles that are being edited by editors who aren't following this guideline. Recently I've seen several instances of corporate employees editing articles about their employers, related companies, and products. One editor justified his one-sided participation because the only people who support the company are in a business relationship with it. -Will Beback · † · 22:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, so we all agree it is needed and would be useful. I hereby draft Will Beback to implement our new COI notice board. If anyone complains, just blame me. WAS 4.250 22:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Draft at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, that was quick. (Once again, procrastination is rewarded.) It looks great, Jossi. My only question is what do we mean by "outside persons"? Would "editors" be clearer? -Will Beback · † · 23:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. Please fix as needed. We also need to add a line in the guideline to inform editors about the noticeboard. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:29, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When ready to go live, please add a link to the notice board to . ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm very glad to see this. I believe I will add the noticeboard to my most-used-links. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 13:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Users who may be contributing solely in COI  

message: I think an important item about COIs is not mentioned. I suggest adding something like
:"If a group, an idea, a world view, a religion etc. forms a significant part of your identity then you are likely to have a conflict of interest when editing articles about these subjects. "
I wonder who should edit the article human. 
I am a bit worried where this guideline is heading to because it seems that eventually this guideline will say that you can only edit articles that you are not interested in and have no personal knowledge of. 
Andries 07:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, this guideline DOES overlap with WP:NPOV but is much more strict. Whereas WP:NPOV only controls the article content, this guideline, as it currently stands, goes much further by vaguely forbiding some people from contributing. User:Andries is correct; this guideline advises us to "avoid editing" the article human and hope the bots pick up the slack. This is why this guideline should simply promote VOLUNTARY DISCLOSURE of COI's, and expedited enforcement of NPOV, etc., for real problems.--Yannick 00:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you feel you have a COI WRT editing Human then don't edit it. But don't expect us to to fall for strawman arguments. You might as well try to tell a judge it wasn't really fraud because white lies are ok and who is to say where the line is anyway. WAS 4.250 06:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you should explain exactly what this straw man is??? I'd like to hear an explanation, as I've come to a similar conclusion, it might forbid some from editing no matter how hard they strive to try and keep a neutral view! 70.101.145.209 08:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No one should edit Wikipedia in a way that is not NPOV. It is a strawman to suggest that can not be done because it can not be done perfectly. WAS 4.250 08:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not quibbling about how close we can come to NPOV. I'm happy with the NPOV policy. But this guideline says "avoid editing articles related to your organization or its competitors," which is too broad and applies even if you follow NPOV. For a more serious example, I do read this as saying that Canadians shouldn't edit the article on Canada or Afghanistan, since we're at war. Even if this rule were restrained to corporations, I think that employees should be allowed to write about their companies, as long as they disclose their relationship and stick to NPOV. That disclosure should lead to greater scrutiny from other community members, and an abridged enforcement process should be available if this conflicted editor violates NPOV. A strawman argument would be one where the policy is misrepresented; I don't believe this is the case. --Yannick 02:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But what if you do manage to edit WP in a way that is NPOV, even though you have a percieved conflict-of-interest, like if it is an autobiography? Would you still be punished? 74.38.35.171 21:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

text: If you think you can remain neutral then go ahead and try it! The only way to find out is to actually give it a whirl and see what sort of reaction comes from the edits. 74.38.35.171 21:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Please don't make this personal. I assume you meant to confirm that people should avoid editing articles about their own country or an enemy country in times of war. I think this rule is too harsh. Enforcement of NPOV should be sufficient in this example, and it has demonstrated reasonable success in Wikipedia's war coverage. Even if our definition of COI is kept so broad and vague, (articles relating to your organization or its competitors,) it should be sufficient for editors to disclose their citizenship to trigger strict NPOV scrutiny on their war edits.--Yannick 06:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You assume wrong. I agree with you that some people need not refrain from editing under circumstances as you have indicated; yet I assure you that others should refrain. Someone who thinks they should not edit due to possible COI indeed should not (and this is what I was refering to). Others who think they should edit political or religious  articles because it is a matter of life and death and it is their moral obligation to influence the situation probably should not edit articles related to their moral imperative. WAS 4.250 06:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Identity

message: Hi.
If you do make neutral edits related to whatever you are associated with, is it still a conflict of interest or are you off the hook? I would say off the hook, since you're following official policy. If not, then this is not fair, since if one is honestly capable of remaining neutral in spite of their association, by all means they should be given that chance and weclomed to provide such contributions without having to post every darned contrib on a talk page. So, this needs to be clarified, otherwise someone might abuse it and proceed to crow "Conflict of Interest!!!!!" when they see someone closely associated with the subject of an article editing without even bothering to check for NPOV violation. And if no NPOV vio. exists, there's nothing to punish them for. A good contributor might get reprimanded or even blocked for something that caused no harm. The persons actions, ie. the edits, must do the speaking, not any circumstantialities (is that a real word?). 70.101.145.209 08:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is NPOV, but typically the person involved can not tell which of their edits reflect bias and which do not so they are not capable of making that judgement no matter how much they want to. We all have biases. Knowing when to back off is more than not just pushing a known bias; it is also recognizing that we all have self interests that make us have biases that don't seem like biases to us. WAS 4.250 08:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: However, what if one tries to avoid these biases as much as possible, if they've managed to figure out where they come from, and what they are. Like you said, everyone has some sort of bias, so the thing is to avoid it as much as possible. If one truly does manage to get that neutrality, even if they have such an affiliation that may lead to a conflict of interest, could they still be charged for violating WP:COI?! 74.38.33.15 07:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If a person has never been suspected of COI with regard to an issue then he is in the clear until such a suspicion is indicated; but as wikipedia deals with user accounts and not persons, pattern of editing is everything so the question to the rest of us with regard to any specific account or anon edit is does it fit a pattern that indicates COI; such as a pattern by a prior account with a COI (and pattern matching to other accounts can include anything indicating it is the same person or a meat puppet of theirs). Be bold if no one has indicated an issue with you; but this can't be used to create one account after another with each one claiming "Oh, but no one has suspected me yet so I can be bold." WAS 4.250 19:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So the affiliation alone is no reason to assume COI, as that would be extremely unfair especially if the person is making an honest effort to try and stay neutral. COI can only be assumed when that is coupled with edits suggesting one. Is that correct? 74.38.35.171 09:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First, you are confusing having a COI with violating the COI  guideline. Just like everyone has biases, everyone has conflicts of interest. The key is don't behave in a way that that is a problem. There are lots of ways to edit such that one causes problems - biased editing or editing articles one has a believed COI with are just two. Second, you will note I said "believed COI". If I say I'm Frank Stein or say that I was paid one thousand dollars to edit the article Frank Stein then people will believe I have a COI regarding it and ask me not to edit it. Or if I add to twenty article what a great guy Frank Stein is then people will assume I have some sort of COI going on and ask me not to make any edits regarding Frank Stein. If I'm Frank Stein and I'm being paid a million dollars to edit the article Frank Stein, but no one suspects it because my behavior in editing and communicating does not suggest any such a thing then I "got away with it" - but if at some future date it becomes known then all those edits will become suspect and my reputation will take a hit. So some people announce their COIs and then edit anywhere until they are asked not to; which if they edit in an unbiased fashion may never happen. Others chose to say nothing and let their edits speak for them. Finally, Wikipedia is not about "being fair". We are writing an encyclopedia. If someone is believed to have a COI with regard to something then "being fair" and having to double-check their edits just puts an unneeded burden on others that can be avoided by simply having that person edit other stuff or place their suggestions on the talk pages.  WAS 4.250 11:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How does having stuff go via talk and then edited in create less work than having to "double-check" their edits, assuming WP:RS and WP:NPOV are followed? That would seem to me to create more work - especially since pretty much every edit is checked by someone sometime. --Insider201283 13:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry but I still don't quite get it. What if I edit an article where I have a believed COI, and the edit turns out to be neutral anyway? Am I still violating the guideline? If so, how is it fair? The edit turned out to be Neutral, so what would be the problem? "Being fair" does not mean to not make Wikipedia an encyclopedia, it means that if the edit turns out neutral & enyclopedic (ie. in keeping iwth Wikipedia's goal as an encyclopedia), not to accuse them of any wrong. It means they have to actually cause damage to do something wrong. Would I accuse you of something wrong by driving my car if I suspected you were inclined for some reason to break it, but didn't, and never did all of the 15 times you did it? No, I would not, because I know that there is a difference between someone's thoughts and actions. I don't accuse based on thoughts. I might monitor you while you are doing it, but I'm not going to PUNISH you for the drivings, as in the end you did no harm. "Conflict of interest" suggests the person actually conciously has other interests that are in conflict with those of Wikipedia, namely NPOV. But someone who satisfies the "guidelines" here to be suspected of having one may not in reality, as they may still be striving to maintain neutrality. The edits prove that. Like if I'm person X, and I have some notable achievements, so I write an autobiography. But you don't suspect it, since the autobiography turns out to very well satisfy WP content policy, why suddenly attack me if I reveal that it was an autobiography? What damage did it cause to Wikipedia??? Things that one should not do are things that damage the encyclopedia, so how did this cause damage? Could you also please explain your rationale for reverting my edit to the guideline, anyway? For one, you took out the whole thing that says about seeking consensus before making changes. If I seek consensus for a change due to possible COI, and my change is approved, what is so bad about me adding it? It has consensus support, so, what's the prob? 74.38.35.171 19:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Furthermore, the guideline seems to suggest that a conflict of interest requires certain pro-POV intent on the part of the editor. What if though, no such intent exists, and in fact the opposite does -- they intend on trying to maintain NPOV, even though they are closely affiliated with a given topic? Could even NPOV edits & no POV-Push intent be construed as a COI violation? How is that a fair guideline, then? It would sound more like a way to stifle contributions based only on prejudice. 74.38.35.171 02:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Wouldn't such a person actually be better off not revealing a COI then? They wouldn't have to go to the trouble of via-Talk-editing (which is a PITA) and since they're editing appropriately nobody would be concerned. Indeed, if they're editing appropriately why should anyone be concerned in the first place? The only area I could see of significant concern would be articles with few or few knowledgeable editors, which would thus lack such oversight. Are those types of articles common? --Insider201283 14:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is exactly the point I have been trying to make here, in fact! I would definitely like to hear some response on this. Glad to see someone sees the same problems with this thing that I do... 74.38.35.171 21:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

text: So if the proposed edits consistently are seen to be neutral, then one could be "approved" to edit the article? Hmm. The problem, see, is that the way the guideline is worded seems to suggest that they are forever limited to proposing changes on talk pages, which can be a hassle because someone might not implement the change even if it is in agreement with WP policy. However if they can make the changes that agree with policy, then why is this not mentioned? What I think is that the guideline should say that one should pay special attention to precisely what they are writing if they have a possible conflict of interest, and if they are not sure, to discuss the changes on the talk page. Furthermore, if the changes are approved, why must "someone else" implement them as the guideline suggests, why not the person proposing them? They were approved, after all.  74.38.35.171 02:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Why haven't I gotten any answers here? Hello? 74.38.35.171 05:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am in agreement here. In at least some clear cases the current guidelines do not appear to "damage" Wikipedia rather than enhance it and WP:COI itself virtually encourages people to be dishonest and not declare COI rather than be upfront and willing engage in a higher level of scrutiny. In my view it is far more sensible for people with COI to be known and scrutinised. As it stands, if you're honest you are "punished", if your not, in most cases you'll get away with it. When a "rule" encourages it's own breaking, there's something fundamentally wrong with the rule. --Insider201283 12:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, verifying honesty is difficult, almost impossible here on Wikipedia. But if we have a rule that "persons with COI should declare it and then freely edit" then again it doesn't work. Everyone will then declare their COI and go ahead with their editing, what does it change? So we don't have much choice except to have some trust in each other regarding honesty in our declarations. And for the long term and regular editors, it would be surely difficult to lie and still be consistent in all their discussions. -- Knverma 13:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

text: What it changes is that people are aware of the COI and thus the edits can be put under extra scrutiny - not exactly what I'd call "freely editing". This is exactly the situation that applies with most peer-reviewed publications. Authors with COI are allowed to publish research and findings, but any COI must be declared. In this way they're not hampered in any way but the COI is out in the open so all are aware of it. As it stands if you are honest then anyone who disagrees with you can very simply get you "banned", whereas the dishonest ones can freely edit unless they are caught. In other words, those editing in good faith are more likely to be restricted by it than those not editing in good faith, who'll just ignore it anyway. That makes no sense. In any case, in controversial articles virtually everyone has a COI, even if it is just reinforcement of ones own beliefs and positions, something highly desirable for we humans. --Insider201283 15:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, everyone has bias, and we have to live with that reality. Extra situations like financial gains surely deserve special consideration. Regarding peer review publications, the identity of authors is more or less known in those situations, unlike on Wikipedia. As I said dishonest ones cannot keep on editing. If they lie it will be difficult for them to be consistent in discussions for a long period of time. Those who come and leave after a few edits can anyway be ignored. But I agree we don't live in a perfect world, and errors will happen. Essentially some kind of trust is necessary in a place like Wikipedia. -- Knverma 
15:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but I would think voluntary admission of COI is actually a cause for trust rather than distrust. Even the guideline itself as it stand effectively warns people against doing this. In situation of "finanical gain" one issue is "distance". Being paid to maintain or promote a company or product is one issue. Potenially gaining if a company is viewed positively is another. Every store owner or employee in the world who sells Coca-Cola potentially gains financially if the Coke article is more positive than negative. Does that mean everyone who works or owns somewhere Coke is sold can't edit the Coke article? What about if your Mutual Fund has stocks in Coke? It's a financial COI. Should you not edit the Coke article? My question remains - what does WP:COI give to wikipedia that WP:RS and WP:NPOV do not already do? --Insider201283 15:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there is a precise line. Regarding the Coke and MF example, sure there is some COI. In the MF case, the larger the investment the larger the COI. The store owners and employees of Coke should have some restrictions in editing Coke articles. Of it has been admitted that we risk not having some insider information in this way. Anyway we are not talking of an outright ban on editing, only restrictions. -- Knverma 15:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it can go past "insider information". As I have pointed out when it comes to polarizing issues like MLMs, virtually by definition it would be hard to find a fully independent supporter. Members themselves have a conflict of interest. "independent" authors who write supportive works become obviously popular with MLMers and are accused of just pandering to the market to sell the books and not truly independent. Major companies or representatives of companies, if they endorse the model will promote their products through it - so they're no longer "independent" either. Mr Joe Public if they like the model will take advantage of it even just to shop - COI. Thus you end up in the situation where virtually the only people without a COI who have an interest in editing articles on the topic are those who have some problem with the model, either theoretically or through a bad experience. So the "anti-" crowd can pretty much edit at will, whereas any supported following the guidelines are directed suggest changes on the talk page. A far more time consuming and often ignored method of enabling change to an article. Throw in the fact the majority of "supporters", virtually by definition have less time - well, the 100% predictable result is that articles will be unbalanced. When it's virtually guaranteed that a guideline will cause a wikipedia article to be unbalanced, then the guideline needs some modification. --Insider201283 23:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do you say that the only people without a COI who have an interest in editing articles on the topic are those who have some problem with the model. There could be people without COI who have no problem with the model. Why do you talk of anti-MLM authors, they don't seem to be Wikipedia editors, do they? How come supporters have no time? What about this PR (of Quixtar in our example) you talked about maintaining a website?  You mean you are the only IT literate Amway businessman who has time? I don't believe. Even if they don't have time, it wouldn't justify modifying the COI rules. Anyway the situation cannot be much different from that of other companies. -- Knverma 12:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not that interesting in discussing specifics here, I think this problems can arise over other polarised issues as well. Please read my talk page for further explaination. Now, re people with COI who have no problem with the model - yes of course they would exist, primarily because they haven't had serious exposure to the model. If however you think the model is a good idea, then you would join, even if only do buy the products. As a member you have a COI and asked not to edit. If you think the model is a bad idea, illegal, whatever - you are free to edit as you please. There is also the question of motivation to edit. In general, who edits or initiates edits in articles? People interested in the topic. In this case you will have people interested with a negative POV because of some bad experience - they are free to edit. People interested with a positive POV are not suppose to edit. People with a positive POV are also more likely to actually be actively building the business, thus have less time, than people not actively building the business. In general, "supporters" are working 20hr weeks building their part-time business on top of 40+ hr weeks with their normal careers. That leaves little time for wikipedia. After you've got to the stage where the part-time business gives you the ability to leave your full-time career, most are probably more interested in enjoying life after working so hard than in spending time editing wikipedia. I have no idea what PR of Quixtar you are talking about? A PR person in the direct employ of Quixtar should quite obviously not be editing the articles. That is the strongest type of COI. But you say the situation would be the same for other companies. Ok, let's take McDonald's. Care to explain why people who oppose rather than support McDonalds would have more time to edit wikipedia? Pick another example if you wish. In the MLM field, virtually by definition, supporters on average will have less time and more likely greater "official" COI than detractors. This isn't a theoretical construct up for debate, it's an actual reality. That reality will predictable lead to unbalanced articles. If a guideline can predictably lead to biased articles, then it, IMO, requires adjustment. --Insider201283 16:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

text: It isn't the justification, that's entirely a straw man, it's simply a concrete example. The justification for the guideline to be reconsidered or modified is that articles become unbalanced and Wikipedia inaccurate. I should think that would be the primary concern. Incidentally, or perhaps not, are you connected with Onega, Inc? --Insider201283 18:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I share your concern for balanced articles. Never heard of Onega, though I just googled it. How did you think of this connection? If you wish you can reply on my talk page. -- Knverma 19:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I right clicked your username instead of left clicked it and that makes my browser do a google search, and a K N Verma was listed as the CEO of Onega, Inc - a direct competitor of Amway/Quixtar. Given the context of the discussion I thought I best to ensure it was no more than a coincidence of name. Pleased to ensure your concern is for balanced articles, and not blind submission to rules that are in a constant state of (hopefully) improvement.--Insider201283 20:10, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, I hope you had not made any false conclusions from this name clash, and thanks for alerting me to this dangerous piece of information. My full name is Kumar Neeraj Verma. Well I have yet to familiarize myself with all the rules, but I will only be willing to cooperate in having balanced articles. -- Knverma 20:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Off the hook? 

message: Hi,
I've added the page of "fluid website" to wikipedia. You might consider this as personal promotion, but I think I'm doing something new and would like to be known for it. Compliment to Wikipedia I'm trying to use it to promote myself and my business?
And what about this page? I thought, where will I put myself, on the top or the bottom? On the top I will get the comments I would want. Is this again self promotion?
I think I'm starting to sound sarcastic. Please just look at what I'm doing, if it's worthwile mentioning, and if so, please extend or remove the article.
Guus Ellenkamp 11:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  So where to start 

message: Hi.
I saw something disturbing here: "If you write in Wikipedia about yourself, your group, or your company, once the article is created, you have no right to delete it or to control its content. "
So what?! If I make a total vanity article about myself that obviously cannot satisfy WP policy, I have "no right" to delete it?! If I go out of my way and delete it could I be banned?!?!?!?! This is WRONG! 70.101.145.209 08:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This refers to the fact that all submissions are under GFDL and the contributor does not have the legal right to withdraw his submission. It has nothing to do with being banned. WAS 4.250 08:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

text: If you aren't an administrator, it's hard to delete something. Also, that wouldn't get you a ban, as they are only handed out for extremely severe violations. As above, this just means that once something is submitted, it's out of your hands and can be edited, added to (in ways you might not appreciated), or deleted. 68.39.174.238 02:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Unintended consequences" section 

message: There have to be some exceptions to this: e.g. should I not revert vandalism if I see someone replace the page of another competing charity with "blah blah blah" etc. Of course I should. I guess it is a guideline like all guidelines and I have to be prepared to take the consequences (particularly the balance of proof being against me in any dispute) if anyone else ever complains or objects (which they haven't). --BozMo talk 09:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree.  Bias is only equivalent to intent if you have perfect self-awareness, and demonstrably most of us do not.  Some of the most obviously POV writing on wikipedia comes from people who sincerely believe that they are unbiased.  Moreover, C.O.I. questions are procedural.  When someone looks at a collaborative effort like a wiki page or a parlimentary vote, they do not want to pick through everyone's independent motives and whether or not so-and-so was really trying hard to overcome their biases.  They just want to know that participants with potential C.O.I. abstained. Ethan Mitchell 14:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exceptions 

message: Can somebody explain me why close relationship constitutes a conflict of interest? I would argue that this close relationships will make most people biased, but that is a different matter. Of course, in case you are close or dependent on this person you are writing about in Wikipedia and if you edit under your real name then I admit that you will unlikely include negative information about the person in Wikipedia. So this means that there will only be a conflict of interest in certain somewhat rare cases.  Andries 17:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not rare, so your argument isn't correct. Why do you say 'bias' is a 'different matter'? Mostly bias is a term used in a rather sloppy fashion. Our term 'POV editing' is more accurate. COI is a cause of POV editing, but also of other things, such as edit warring over minor points just to shift a page very slightly, for example for prominence of one fact. Why do people act in this way? COI just means that when they edit they don't think about 'what is best for the encyclopedia?' They think of something else. Can this be 'triggered' (what the page says) by 'close relationships'? Certainly. Charles Matthews 21:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that POV editing in close relationship is in most cases not caused by COI but by bias which is a different matter. I believe that most people even in close relationships are sincerely convinced that they are helping the encyclopedia even when their edits do not follow NPOV. Andries 21:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless one is extremely cautious, close relationships will incline us not to put Wikipedia aims first. Is it impossible to edit within NPOV with a COI related to a "close relationship" (being that pro or con a subject)? No, it isn't. But it is extremely difficult. Accepting the fact that it is very difficult, may be a good staring point. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: May be, it is extremely difficult, but that is in most cases not caused by a conflict of interest. Most people have the sincere intention to help the encyclopedia even if they are in close relationship. Can we either reword it or remove it? Andries 22:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Andries, please read Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest#Conflict_of_interest_in_point_of_view_disputes. As you can see, this guideline does not trump WP:AGF, that is an official policy. I do not think that this guideline doubts the sincere intentions of editors with COIs related to close relationships. It simply highlights the difficulties involved. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Close relationships

message: He suggests PR representatives creating names like "CompanyXrepresentative" to be transparent. A good idea (both), but aren't usernames that are or include company names regularly shot on sight? 68.39.174.238 21:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no need to have such usernames. If the editor wants to voluntarily disclose a COI, he/she can do that in userpage. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly, so someone should Email him and suggest he update his page. 68.39.174.238 02:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Someone may want to talk to this Brian Wasson guy 

message: If a notable person (someone about whom there already exists an article) edits their own page, is that a conflict of interest?  What if some celebrity who is an infogeek like the rest of us (let's suppose, for example, Penn Jillette or Weird Al) edited their own page to eliminate rumors and falsehoods?  Would NPOV be a factor too?  --BlueNight 09:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it is a conflict of interest to edit a page about you. One is recommended to edit the talk page instead. But if someone does edit their own talk page, wikipedians are not to bite newbies and not to revert proper edits and to treat the person with all due sensitivity (see WP:BLP). WAS 4.250 10:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly.  While a celebrity could fix errors on their own page, they could also add info that makes them look good but isn't true.  And due to the nature of wikis, we generally have no way of being sure that an editor is who they claim to be.  If someone showed up and said they were Penn Gillette, we can't verify that and shouldn't treat their edits any different from anyone else.  --Milo H Minderbinder 16:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

text: *Note that we do tend to block people who take a celebrity name as username, unless they somehow do convince us that they're genuine. >Radiant< 16:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable people editing their own page 

message: Does the claim made here reveal a Conflict of Interest? If so, what might be done to counsel the offending party not to use Wikipedia as a harvesting ground for her for-profit venture? --JossBuckle Swami 02:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikia principal spamming WikiEN-l mailing list 

message: It's easy to spot them sometimes: other times, however, a page here could look like an encyclopedic article, yet it may be written to promote the subject.
The question is, how many of them are stealthily promoting the subject??
On the Matt Lissack article the edit summary was 
but it looked like an encyclopedic article.
The question is, should you check the edit summary first before AFD'ing the article?? --SunStar Nettalk 17:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Checking edit summaries and edit histories is always a good idea, although from my experience a lot of the more problematic editors don't summarize their edits, or use very short, undescriptive summaries like "created article," "expanding" etc. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 21:37, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self-promotions masquerading as articles 

message: Point two, a recent change near the top of this article, "avoid breaching relevant policies on autobiographies and neutrality", is technically incorrect. Neutrality is a policy; autobiographies is a guideline. To me the difference is significant, but maybe I'm being too nitpicky. Would it be better to say "avoid breaching the neutrality policy and autobiographies guideline"? It makes the distinction and places the most signicant first without greatly increasing the verbage. ✤ JonHarder talk 02:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  avoid breaching relevant policies 

message: ... to go and write neutrally on subjects that you are close to? Like if you can take the fact that you may have to admit negative things. Or could you still be busted for a percieved violation of this "guideline"? However, in the opener it says that a "conflict of interest" means that the person has some agenda that conflicts with Wikipedia's interest, namely the neutral point of view. But if one does not have that, then one should be able to write about subjects of which they have very close relationships, since they've still decided to maintain neutrality in spite of being close to them. Also, if one's proposed content is "approved" by the community, is it OK to add it themselves provided no "sneak-em-by" edits (ie. quick changes just before addition) that could counter consensus are performed? I don't see a problem with that, since if it's already approved why should the identity of the adder matter? Esp. if it stays in the community-approved form -- anything else is pure bigotry and is wrong. 74.38.35.171 22:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you are willing to accept any random anon's claim that your edits are not "neutral" and therefore you stop editing the article, then yes. See the problem? WAS 4.250 01:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, you mean because then I'd just be letting someone's random claim influence me without any critical thinking or other important things, and thus "bust" myself? 74.38.35.171 07:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You need to be able to accept that you're not going to be the ultimate authority on what should and shouldn't be in the article. Of course, it's always true that you don't own your contributions to Wikipedia, but when the articles you edit are about you, your family, your band, your business etc. it's ever so much more difficult. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 10:55, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But if I can do that (keep neutral), then it is OK, right? I guess the thing is is that working on something like that, where you can't be the boss, requires a high level of humility. Many people's egos are too large. Basically, what I am saying is that if one makes a very good fruitful effort to stay neutal, one cannot be busted for "violating" this guideline, right? 74.38.35.171 21:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Or, of course, keep editing but make the edits neutral. There's nothing wrong with (or at least there shouldn't be anything wrong with, if there is then that is a problem with Wikipedia that demands attention) making neutral edits, regardless of who is making them. Also, why didn't you (WAS 4.250) like my edit to this page, anyway? 74.38.35.171 21:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  It is okay, right? 

message: Many of you have probably seen this, but a pretty interesting read for those who haven't: "Microsoft 'tried to doctor Wikipedia'". -- Satori Son 04:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Microsoft]] using hired gun to edit Wikipedia 

message: This is the first time I've run into this page and I think it is rather too strong. In particular, I have had many excellent editing sessions (such as that on FIRE or the John Templeton Foundation) that involved employees of these organizations, and I think their contributions materially improved the articles. So outright banning any "interested" party from editing is ridiculous IMO -- and it happens all the time anyway (especially when it comes to, say, a scientist writing about ideas she's worked on.) So I've changed "you must not write" to "you should consider not writing."
Secondly, the article pretty much acknoledges this later, when it lays out guidelines for how to edit wikipedia while having a COI (e.g., it suggests that you declare it.) It does, however, reference NPOV when it says "you are strongly discouraged." This is, again, rubbish. NPOV is not about who you are, but about what you do. The whole point of NPOV is to educate users on how to overcome their own biases and interests in the goal of making a better encyclopedia.
Please drop me a line on my talk page to alert me to disagreements on this. I was shocked to find this COI article and it's ambiguous statements that COI==automatic recusal. It goes against everything I've learned about editing wikipedia in my 2+ years here.  Sdedeo (tips) 22:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My first impressions on this article are similarly unfavorable. I find it ironic that an article that is supposed to support WP:NPOV seems to have NPOV problems of its own. In particular, it is lacking balanced coverage of WP:AGF implications, especially WP:BITE. I also think it is unnecessarily restrictive, as all WP editors generally write about things they are interested in, which is a COI. The issue is defining the line where COI harms WP. I don't have any problem with someone writing an article about their company as long as the information is WP:V and cites WP:RS and nominally has a good faith effort at WP:NPOV. If it's not, the answer is to help the editor improve it. I think it's time for someone to be WP:BOLD and tackle these issues here, but I'll pause a moment, and let someone else take the lead if they wish. Dhaluza 11:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "you should consider"

message: I've deleted the action box, where it says that a "real or perceived COI" should force you to restrict yourself to the talk page or an RFC. Again, not only is this against every other policy on wikipedia -- where users are educated on NPOV, etc. -- but it is also completely disconnected from the actual practice of wikipedia. It's fine if users want to push for something new, to change how things currently happen, but to represent this as "consensus" and "how things are done" is really false. Again, of course, I'd be happy to discuss. Sdedeo (tips) 22:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read  WAS 4.250 22:34, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think this page can be too strong considering how much self promotion people try to do, particularly things like adding links to their own websites.  I like the page to be strong, if there are exceptional editors who are capable of editing articles they're related to with NPOV, they're the exception to the rule (and all policies do have exceptions).  --Milo H Minderbinder 22:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "action" box

message: WAS has reverted twice two different contributions, and MHM has reverted once. Nobody is willing to discuss any of this on the talk page substantively. I believe this is a violation of WP:OWN, and am reverting. If either wish to engage in constructive dialogue on the talk page, I will not revert further. Sdedeo (tips) 05:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverting is never a useful option. Place a request at WP:VP and ask editors to come and comment. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I did restore to the consensus version. Please place a notice, at the village pump and attract the attention of other editors. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Alternatively, you may want to ask editors that worked in this guideline quite extensively, such as User:Charles Matthews. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Many editors frequent the Village Pump. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: continual reversion

message: Now there are five editors: MHM, WAS, Jossi, Radiant and Charles (sorry Charles), who are unwilling to discuss the problems with the guideline that I've raised. Just to reiterate:
#The guideline is self-contradictory: it tells readers that those with a COI are forbidden, discouraged, and allowed to edit.
#The guideline does not represent consensus, as it does not represent the practices of many editors on the wiki, including myself, who have shared editing with employees of corporations.
Is there anyone willing to defend what they see as the consensus? Sdedeo (tips) 19:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To make a correction, I have discussed this.  See above.  --Milo H Minderbinder 19:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, yes, you did post something, but left the discussion and now seem to confine yourself to metadebate, reverting, and threatening me on my talk page. Sdedeo (tips) 19:48, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: up to five editors who are unwilling to discuss

message: I am moderating a conflict of interest case for the Mediation Cabal. After carefully reviewing WP:COI, there is still the big question mark always left behind after these statements concerning COI: what about the other side? If the non-interested parties are able to edit freely, and the interested parties are not permitted to do so, then how can you ever have a truly neutral point of view article? It would appear that the answer is simply that you can't. WP:COI does not take into account how it inadvertently leads to POV-slanted articles, and the general editing public of Wikipedia (as evidenced by the notation that the WP:COI guideline is generally accepted by the editors of Wikipedia) do not seem to find that matter worrisome.
It would appear that someone, with an obvious and self-admitted COI is subject to the general consensus opinion of the majority of non-interested editors who act as moderators. If they are convinced that that person's edits are COI and impose POV within the article, then those edits should be removed. The fact that other major contributors might have COI (though it would have to be proven through self-statement or repeated actions consistent with having COI) should not even be factored into the decision, since WP:COI appears to trump common sense when it comes to POV. If only common sense were a little more common.
I'm going to try to exercise a little common sense here and say what makes sense to me, at least in our mediation case.
* The person with COI should be free to edit the articles in question, subject to the same policies to which everyone else is held. Even if the person with COI in our case receives some financial gain, I don't see him as having much, if any, more financial COI than the likely dozens of editors who anonymously edit the article each month.
* The person with COI or anyone else who edits in a fashion that consistently appears to slant things toward one point of view or another, should be treated as someone likely to have COI, even if that COI is not readily apparent.
* By treating someone as if they have COI, I mean that their edits are scrutinized a little more carefully than other similar edits (fair, maybe not, but it is the formal guideline).
* If the consensus of the uninvolved parties (i.e., none of the individuals on either side of a POV struggle) feels that a particular edit, link, or whatever is a POV edit (in either direction), then it should be reverted.
* Obviously, if either side can show solid, reliable sources backing their edit, then the other POV should be required to provide equally compelling sources or rescind their argument.
* If both sides present compelling sources, then a carefully crafted statement should be added to the article presenting both sides of the issue neutrally, along with the sources.
* In those situations, Wikipedia would be acting as a neutral source of information, and the end-reader can make up his or her own mind, because he or she will have the pertinent facts.
* If such compelling sources cannot be found, but one party knows something to be false, then that is just too bad. Until adequate citable sources are found that are roughly comparable in reliability to the opposing side of the debate, the side without sources will have to suffer in silence and resist the temptation to insert weasel words or otherwise soften the other side's argument.
* Determination of the reliability of a source should be made, again, by consensus of the uninvolved parties. It should be noted that if a prominent news source (New York or Los Angeles Times; NBC, ABC, or CBS Nightly News, CNN News (not just an opinion talk show on CNN), NPR, or a foreign news source of equal stature) feels comfortable with the reliability of an "expert", then that should be acceptable for Wikipedia, too. True, the expert may be an expert in cults based on personal experiences that are outside the experiences other people have, but that is not for us to decide. The Times or whoever made that decision already, and they are paid professionals with careers on the line based on their judgments. It is not the average Wikipedian's duty to try to second-guess the criteria that otherwise reliable sources use.
* The preceding being said, if such sources later change their level of trust of an "expert" or appear to change views, then it is certainly worth revisiting. Reliable sources do not always retract earlier statements, but attitudes and levels of trust change over time, and more current assessments by such sources should generally be given greater consideration than ones from the past.
Is all of that found in WP:COI? Not hardly. But it is how I interpret WP:COI making the most sense, especially in the particular case with which I am involved. I also see that several other people above (including one of the parties of this mediation case) have expressed similar concerns. It is also related to the [] matter.
I totally understand and agree with the need for SOME sort of COI policy, but I think the current version encourages the inherent defense of the official view (i.e., the Microsoft view in a Microsoft matter, the Girl Scouts view in a Girl Scouts matter, etc.), because only the "official" view is the one being restricted here. COI is not exclusively present in the edits of people on the payroll of companies or families of those involved. The competitors and enemies of those people also have COI that is not really addressed at all in the current guideline. Also, as pointed out above, the guideline is internally inconsistent, and very confusing (especially when "Ignore all rules" is official policy and WP:COI is only a guideline with questionable amounts of consensus in its current state). 
I am also accepting comments on this matter of COI as it relates to the MedCab case. Thanks. --Willscrlt (Talk·Cntrb) 05:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Willscrit -- not sure if you've been following the discussion above, but I've been agitating for changes on this article. Can you make some concrete suggestions for alterations to the article as it stands now? I'd also suggest editing it, or at least changing the status from "guideline" to "policy", but there are some people who have objected edits and reverted. Sdedeo (tips) 06:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Willscrlt, the first paragraph says "A Wikipedia conflict of interest is an incompatibility between the purpose of Wikipedia to produce a neutral encyclopedia and the individual agendas or aims of editors who are involved with the subject of an article. This includes promotion of oneself or other individuals, causes, organizations, and companies you work for, and their products, as well as suppression of negative information, and criticism of competitors." Those last three words deal with your concern about "competitors and enemies". Also the guide says "avoid participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors". The guide does not go into the matter in depth but so far there has no consensus to do that. Perhaps because it is so obvious. Sdedeo, the guideline does not need to be weakened. People with a COI need to add to the talk pages and in general to not edit the article although often the article's other editors will encourage them to do so if it seems appropriate. The key is that that it is not the call of the person with the COI to make. Other editors need to be the ones that make that call. WAS 4.250 19:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text: It's not a matter of "editors with a COI must seek permission from other editors". Such a thing would be easy to game. It's more a matter of when to apply WP:IAR to ignore this guideline. See this for an excellent summary of Wikipedia's rules with regard this this situation. WAS 4.250 03:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Applying some common sense to WP:COI 

message: Milo, you changed "strongly discouraged" to "should avoid". Can you explain why you think "strongly discouraged" is bad, given that it is the exact language used in two separate ArbCom cases, Midnight Syndicate and Brahma Kumaris, with unanimous votes? Sdedeo (tips) 21:26, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is weaker and more lenient.  ArbCom decisions don't set policy.  --Milo H Minderbinder 21:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is correct that AC decisions do not make policy. They give clues as to how policy may be enforced, when it comes to the crunch. Such cases are not the typical business of the site (thank goodness). A fair proportion of the cases involve identifiable COI causing intractable editing conflicts over content; the AC certainly agrees also with the principle of 'avoidance'; and if not that, of editors backing away. Charles Matthews 22:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sdedeo, I don't think the current wording causes problems.  I also don't see a deadlock - you want to make a change but I don't see support for it.  --Milo H Minderbinder 22:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: language

message: I've read this guideline a few times and it seems to be internally inconsistent.  Can we possibly distinguish between potential conflicts, where an editor needs to be careful, and actual conflicts, where an editor is actually doing something wrong.  It's easy to identify an actual conflict because numerous other editors will say things that are equivalent to, but nicer than, "You're being a Dick."  My idea is that editors should generally be free to edit any article, but that they should disclose potential conflicts (e.g. "I used to work for this company.")  At that point, the other editors are on notice and can decide whether there is an actual conflict or not.  Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 03:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It serves no useful purpose to distinguish among actual, potential, and apparent conflicts of interest as the most ethical editors will be asked to please edit the article in spite of their COI because they are helping in a NPOV way while the least ethical will assert there is no COI and assert that the accusation of a possible COI based on the circumstances and content of their edits is a disgraceful incivility/harrassment/stalking/personal_attack. WAS 4.250 13:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't it make sense to encourage editors to disclose potential COI, and then give them the benefit of the doubt if they do, and if their edits adhere to NPOV?  I want to encourage good behavior.  Unfortunately, there is a perceived risk in disclosing a connection to a subject for fear that other editors will say, "Hands off, no editing under any circumstances, no matter how NPOV your edits may seem to be."  Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 14:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Credibility depends on not merely avoiding actual COI but also on avoiding what could appear to be a COI to reasonable observer. If we care about the credibility of Wikipedia - and I hope we do, otherwise the whole Wikipedia concept is pointless - then we have to say to someone with a COI "Hands off, no editing under any circumstances, no matter how NPOV your edits may seem to be." Raymond Arritt 03:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree, I believe that the NPOV is far more important to Wikipedia than COI. I believe this for two reasons; 
First, I believe that the content is more important than a "potential conflict of interest". I believe that credibility is gained through the quality of the product.
Secondly Wikipedia believes that NPOV is important enough to consider it "Official Policy" whilst COI is a guideline.
--22:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia can survive with editors who are real life people in the real world, no matter what you say. Real life people have real life interests, which they are knowledgeable about. If you say their knowledge disqualifies them then you omit the possibility that wikipedia could infact gain a reputation for its correctness. Pretending that a conflict does not exist because it has not been disclosed is a new theory i must say, but it doesn't sound like one that will last. Ansell 09:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Conflict of Interest versus Potential Conflict of Internest

message: *After reading through all the back-and-forth about this, I think I see the problem.  I agree that some parts of the article seem confusing and somewhat contradictory.  It seems to me that everything that really needs to be said on this topic is said by the time the reader gets down to the table of contents.  Everything under the TOC has WP:CREEP'ed in and WP:KISS'ed the legibility goodbye.  By referring the reader of this guideline to WP:NPOV and WP:AUTO, together with a common sense application of WP:IAR and WP:COMMON SENSE (yes, I'm being redundant here), I don't think we really need the rest of the article in the guideline.  I'm not advocating that we delete the whole thing altogether, but I think it should be moved to a separate essay, with a link from WP:COI stating something along the lines of "Here are some examples of what a significant portion of the Wikipedia community views as a COI", and then leave it at that.
*That said, I'd like to propose that the following text be added to the "Action" box (and yes, I think it should be in ALL CAPS, or maybe bold, to make it further stick out):
:WHEN EDITING, EDITORS WITH A REAL OR PERCEIVED CONFLICT OF INTEREST MUST REVEAL THAT INFORMATION ON THEIR USER:TALK PAGE, AS WELL AS BRINGING IT UP IN ALL DISCUSSIONS RELATED TO THE CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
*I hope these edits will be acceptable to all, but if not, please DON'T BITE ME! Thanks! --Aervanath 05:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, I just realized how much the wikilinks in my first paragraph hurt the legibility.  I hope my point is still clear.  If not, I will be happy to re-clarify. --Aervanath 05:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are significant problems with requiring public disclosure of personal information. Wikipedia must let the disclosure of COI be a matter of 1) something that is apparent due to the nature and content of the edits and 2) a choice available to the editor themself. WAS 4.250 13:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the first part is the most important, and the following sections are very secondary (and probably way overwritten).  I don't know if moving them to an essay would be appropriate, maybe an appropriately named subpage?  Or keep them and just streamline.  I don't think insisting that editors must disclose COI is practical, but we certainly could encourage it.  --Milo H Minderbinder 14:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree that requiring disclosure would be heavy handed.  Instead, can we say that if an editor discloses a possible COI, other editors should assume good faith and not use that as an excuse to discourage participation.  It takes a certain amount of courage to disclose.  When somebody does, we should assume good faith. I'd like to see that in the guideline. Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 14:43, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A possible solution 

message: I edit a fair amount on the various articles related to Freemasonry.  The topic is a somewhat controversial one as there are religious groups who ardently oppose the fraternity, conspiracy theorists who believe that the fraternity is behind all sorts of plots, and others who want the articles to reflect their own particular Anti-Masonic POV.  This often leads to heated debate between Masons and Anti-Masons over content.  Inevitably, someone on the Anti side point's to this guideline and says that Masons should not edit articles about Masonry because of COI.  So I though I would come here and get the opinion of those who wrote the guideline...  are editors who identify themselves as Freemasons (and I suppose we should also include editors who are Freemasons but don't identify themselves as such) barred from editing such articles due to a COI?  If so, the articles will definitely be one sided in their POV.  To me this would be like saying that Christians can not edit articles on Christianity, or like saying Physicists can not edit articles on physics.  Blueboar 18:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are probably referring to Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest#Close_relationships. In that context, fervent Anti-Masonic editors could be as conflicted as fervent Masonic editors. All boils down to their ability to work within our content policies and their intent. If their intent is to create a good, solid, NPOV article, it should be no problem. If their intent is to assert one POV over the other with an obvious lack of care for encyclopedic content, then COI could kick-in regardless of which side of the dispute they edit from. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, that matches my understanding of the guideline (both literal and intent), but I thought I would make sure. Blueboar 21:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is my understanding, Blueboar. Others may or may not have the same understanding. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:31, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) Exactly. But let me add that "intent" is all about what is apparent from the edits and the nature of the edits as judged by OTHER PEOPLE. We don't stand in the way of excellent unbiased edits from people who say they have a COI. We don't shrink from blocking edits that we believe are biased due to a COI regardless of claims of non-COI. WAS 4.250 21:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: That, WAS, is the issue that has been raised by various people over the life of this guideline. If all edits are assessed on their merits, what is the value of WP:COI, then? (don't get me wrong, I believe that the guideline is needed, just pointing out what the contention seems to be). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I do not understand the distinction you made. Why would it would be different for a person belonging to the Republican Party, and that is a frequent poster to the Free Republic, than for a person belonging to the Freedom Road Socialist Organization? Do Wikipedia editors need now to make such value judgments about what is mainstream and what is not? That is a road paved with more problems than this guideline is attempting to address. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:52, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On a simple model, a mass movement will have some sort of 'centre', and the problems come mainly with those close to the centre editing. E.g. we have always believed that Catholics can edit about the Pope, and the issue of COI is more like could a Vatican employee edit about the Pope. The smaller the group you are talking about, in general terms, the closer people who belong to it are to the centre, the insiders, the core activists, the promoters, however you want to characterise those whose first thought in the day is what to do about it all. Charles Matthews 10:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  clarification needed 

message: Just looking at one pair of statements in the current WP:COI and WP:AFD guidelines show how COI can be used very effectively to suppress NPOV discussions of any article.
In WP:COI it says: avoid participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors
In WP:AFD it contains the statement: A five-day public debate and discussion on the merits of the article and its best treatment. Applicable to all articles where deletion is unsure, seriously contested, or may need debate, and all borderline or controversial cases.
One only needs to raise a COI issue, force the article into the deletion category and the current guidelines eliminates any contribution by interested parties.  In fact, the phrase "articles related" is so vague that COI can be raised easily with little merit.  Once raised however, getting the article into the deletion process is easier because the the contributor and other interested parties with real or percieved COIs have been eliminated from any debate.  The phrase "public debate and discussion" and "seriously contested" in the AFD guidelines may sound collaborative, but are not given the COI guidelines because the COI guidelines eliminate some of those in the public who might want to discuss, debate and contest the merits and deletion with facts, references and clarifications.  This effectively suppresses any real debate of the NPOV of the article.--Mike Cline 12:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If an article goes to AfD, involved parties shouldn't participate in the AfD discussion, it doesn't mean they can't still make comments on the article talk page.  If people are biased against a company, they're probably more likely to keep an article and leave in negative information about the company.  Are you aware of any cases where articles were deleted purely based on POV?  Whether an article exists certainly shouldn't be decided by editors with COI, as far as I'm concerned, that's potentially worse than editing an article.  --Milo H Minderbinder 14:45, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Milo, my concern may actually be one of tactics, it is not that an involved party decides on the deletion, but merely contributes to the body of information used to evaluate the deletion decision. If indeed an involved party can freely, and without being labeled COI, identify all the relevant information neccessary to evaluate an article's notability, NPOV, etc. on article's discussion page before making recomendations to keep or delete the article AND those commenting on the AfD page have in good faith reviewed and continue to review all that relevant information on the discussion page, then "public debate and discussion on the merits of the article" has been allowed.  However, should COI guidelines discourage even the hint of discussion by involved parties on the disscussion page or anywhere else for COI or any other reason and that deletion decision makers don't refer or review the articles discussion page during the deletion process, then the real public debate is stifled.  It is really just too easy for someone involved in an AfD discussion to say "I can't find anything" relevant to this article, when they don't know where or how to look for it. They take one shot at it and that's it.  The presence of a negative does not prove the positive.  I hope you see my point.--Mike Cline 16:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I find it unlikely that in the case of an AfD, none of the editors participating, and no editor supporting keeping would either point to the talk page, or copy relevant information either into the article itself or the AfD discussion.  This seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist - can you provide an example of this hypothetical problem actually happening?  --Milo H Minderbinder 16:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Milo, I must admit that I do not, in the least, understand what you just said.  1) DO or DO NOT editors, mediators and senior contributors participating in an AfD discussion review and refer to information on the disscusion pages of the articles under consideration? 2) If they do, is it evaluated from an NPOV perspective regardless of who contributed it?--Mike Cline 16:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Editors should do both.  And if relevant info is posted on the article talk page, I think it's likely that an "uninvolved" editor will either point it out on the AfD or copy it there (or put it in the article if it's appropriate).  I'd be more concerned about the hypothetical "COI party puts crucial info on the talk page but nobody at AfD notices" situation with an example showing it exists.  --Milo H Minderbinder 17:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Milo, thanks I appreaciate your thoughts on this.--Mike Cline 21:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: COI and AfD Guidelines Do Not Provide Level Playing Field For NPOV

message: Is there any further guideline to which I can refer an editor who understands that editing a particular article may be a conflict of interest, but who is here because they feel that their organisation is being misrepresented in an already existing article? Such editors frequently are complete novices (or at least have no exposure to the depth of guidelines and policy) and may be baffled about how to properly engage with Wikipedia to ensure factual accuracy, remove POV material, or debate about particular points or presentation in an article we encourage them not to edit. I would hope such a guideline starts with the talk page but summarizes how to conduct discussions (politely, no personal attacks or legal threats, on the talk page not the article etc., at the end with subheadings, signing, etc.), and how to escalate if either nobody engages on the talk page or if they believe editors are pursuing a non-encyclopedic agenda. I sometimes find myself trying to steer people adrift in this area, but I struggle to assemble the salient information. Thanks, Notinasnaid 22:01, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: David Gerard here advises using this:
Wikipedia:Contact us/Article problem/Factual error (from enterprise). Talk to David. He has had a lot of experience in this area. WAS 4.250 08:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further info for editors who see a conflict of interest 

message: In following the Autobiography policy of COI, I placed a deletion tag on article Daniel J. Barrett as the creator and sole contributor to the article was Daniel Barrett (User: DJBWiki). The AfD was overturned by an editor citing that Daniel Barrett is notable (and thus can violate the Autobiography section of COI). If this is true - that a notable person can create their own article - then perhaps we should add this caveat to COI#Autobiography. I had a lot of editors come down on me for adding the AfD tag and defending my position. I kept pointing them to this policy which clearly states that you can't author your own article. This has been unpleasant and confusing for me. I thought I was following Wikipedia policy. To avoid this kind of situation for future editors such as myslef, perhaps the policy can be retooled to say that a notable person can in fact author their own article. -- Levine2112 discuss 18:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note that the article was not put up for AfD, but tagged as a proposed deletion, which is a different process. I would disagree that editors came down on you; what you experienced is the normal consensus process at work. You stood alone in your interpretation of this aspect of the WP:COI guideline (which means that it may be helpful to adapt the guideline language to prevent this problem from recurring). One of the responses may have been a bit curt, but then you had been resisting a broad consensus between experienced editors for a while, in an atmosphere that had already been poisoned due to constant disruption by an editor that has since been indef-blocked for WP:BLP reasons. AvB ÷ talk 22:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I think you may have confused two different issues.  An article can be deleted for non-notability.  This is often, but not always, a problem with self-authored articles.  COI may result in an article about a notable subject that isn't written with proper encyclopedic tone and neutrality.  The correct action in that case is to edit the article to restore neutral point of view.  Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 18:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess I am still confused. Can a notable person create their own article? -- Levine2112 discuss 19:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sometimes they do, Levine. In these cases, we assume good faith, we inform them of WP:AUTO and ask them to help us via the talk page if tthe wish to contribute, we check the notability of the person and either place the article in AFD or we work to make the article neutral and compliant with our policies. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:01, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: It helps to keep in mind that the point of our COI guideline is to assist us in our goal of a NPOV encyclopedia. When dealing with any COI issue, always ask yourself how the issue relates to NPOV and what you can do to help make Wikipedia a better neutral free encyclopedia. Keep that central goal in mind and you won't go far wrong. WAS 4.250 20:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I sincerely appreciate this. Can you see how the current COI#Autobiography can be ambiguous here? Perhaps it should state something to this effect... a notable person can sometimes create their own article, however... Make sense? -- Levine2112 discuss 21:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Policy ambiguity 

message: I agree that WP:COI can lead to serious problems with WP:NPOV, but I want to bring up a hypothetical:
Suppose a litigant files a lawsuit against all Wikipedia editors who edit their article, claiming libel.  (This may be covered under WP:NLT, but it might not.)  Would WP:COI mean that no one could edit the article?  Or perhaps, a little more plausible, suppose a certain religious organizations files a lawsuit against anyone who has ever said something about the organization which they consider improper.  Would their article then be "safe" from criticism?  (I would prefer not to name the religous organization I have in mind, as they'd probably sue me, or spam my E-mail box, or take some other action I would rather not happen.  You know who they are.)  — Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 21:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a guideline, not a rule.  We make exceptions once in a while for special cases like these. Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 12:13, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legal antagonists 

message: This is too well said not to quote it:
:"It's all a matter of how you do it.  If someone asked you to write an article in a format that is acceptable to Wikipedia (wikicode, NPOV, etc.), I don't see anything wrong with them compensating you for your time.  On the other hand, if someone asked you to write the article, post it under your own name, and defend it, then we have a problem.  The difference is, are they asking for your service as a writer who knows how to write a WP-acceptable article, or are they trying to rent your reputation in Wikipedia?  The former is no big deal, the latter is a problem." lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail comment by Guettarda WAS 4.250 01:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think the above is fair, but that you can potentially post the edit to the article's talk page, or even to the article itself, if you accurately disclose your connection and invite other editors to review your work.  We don't want shills, but if some corporation wants to pay a writer to generate acceptable, high quality work, and then donate it to the project, why wouldn't we at least consider adding it to the encyclopedia?  In the open source software movement I am sure they would accept code written by a programmer paid by a commercial source, and then properly donated to the public domain.  Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 01:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An interesting subtext is whether they pay you to defend (or "maintain", whatever) the article after it gets into the project. I don't think the analogy to open-source software is a good one, by the way. Concerns like NPOV and notability are far more subjective than computer code. Raymond Arritt 01:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The analogy to donation is really for outsiders to post elsewhere material released under the GFDL, so that we can use it if we want it. Charles Matthews 10:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Curious, I don't think NPOV is subjective at all. Any serious editor can tell the difference between POV and NPOV.  Yes, paying somebody to 'defend' the POV in an article is wrong. Paying somebody to 'defend' and article from spam and vandalism is no big deal.  Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 12:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is par for the course at wikipedia to have people call edits that don't parrot their thoughts "trolling" or "vandalism". And defending such edits is often called "hurting wikipedia" and "tendatious" and worthy of warnings on user talk pages prior to blocks and bans. Too many people play wikipedia as if it were a game and our rules must reflect and protect from that reality. WAS 4.250 16:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This is too well said not to quote it

message: Hi.
I noticed this at the beginning of the page:
"A Wikipedia conflict of interest is an incompatibility between the purpose of Wikipedia, to produce a neutral encyclopedia, and the aims of individual editors. These include editing for the sake of promoting oneself, other individuals, causes, organizations, companies, or products, as well as suppressing negative information, and criticizing competitors."
This suggests that if you do not have any intentions of being biased or otherwise going against the purposes of Wikipedia (neutral, verifiable encyclopedia), and try to make an honest effort to be neutral, writing about subjects one is personally involved in is OK. I do not see a problem with that myself, since one is trying to be neutral, but the rest of the language of the guideline seems to suggest that this is still forbidden. Is this too restrictive? If not, why not, and should the opener here be reworded? 74.38.32.195 07:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there is a long amplification to explain what is meant. The real point is that people who think they are not damaging the encyclopedia, but are in fact pushing something promotional into it, may be wrong. Because they are too close to be a good judge. Charles Matthews 10:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you saying it's possible, then, to have absolutely no intentions or "interests" of wanting to be promotional, and being totally willing to put in as much negative or non-promotional information about oneself as possible (although not so much as to turn it into a non-neutral article in the other direction -- self-degradation. WP:NPOV means we cannot have bias in any direction.), that it is possible to still have a bias? But wait, everyone is biased to some degree on everything -- why must we forbid editing when it can be corrected by other editors? A reasonable editor, who is the type I am trying to defend (the ego-editor with all sorts of vanity intent is an open-and-shut case), would then be open to admit that he had been biasing the edits, since for one he would not be intending to make biased edits or to promote himself, and thus when the corrective editing was applied, he could see where he went wrong and thereby help reduce his own bias or otherwise keep it off WP. And there's nothing wrong with that. Also, if "conflict of interest" means something different or more than just "intentions", then the opener is contradictory or misleading, respectively. There should be at least a brief mention of the "different" or "more" stuff. 74.38.32.195 20:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too restrictive? 

message: The main body of the text in this policy still contains links to WP:NOR and other policies that have recently been superseded. Ordinarily I would just go ahead and update these links as a minor edit, but as this is an official policy page, I thought it was more appropriate to consult other editors first. Walton Vivat Regina! 16:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Walton, all these have shortcuts that point to the appropriate subsection on WP:ATT, so we may not need to make any changes. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not precisely true - look at this section. The link at the top of this section still goes to a subsection within WP:NOR. As it doesn't go to the top of the page, a reader would have to scroll up to find the box marking this as an inactive policy; only there do they find a link to WP:ATT. This could be very confusing for new users. Walton Vivat Regina! 09:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see your point. Do you have an idea on how to fix it? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Links to defunct policies in the body of the text

message: I've noticed a couple of situations lately where editors heavily involved in an article have been criticized for having a WP:COI for that reason.  See Wikipedia:Deletion review#Jeopardy! in popular culture and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jeopardy! auditions for some examples.  I created a new page, Wikipedia:Vested interest to talk about this issue.  I think part of the confusion is that someone heavily involved in a particular article may have some kind of conflict of interest, just not the kind of conflict of interest this page is really about.  I put in a link in the See also section, and added a section in the text to refer to the vested interest page.  Mangojuicetalk 18:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly disagree.  In my experience this argument usually is made by editors who want to insert their unsubstantiated pet ideas into an established article. When their ideas are correctly reverted as the nonsense, they shout "you don't own this article!" and so on. An essay on vested interest has the potential to cause more problems than it solves. Raymond Arritt 03:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, don't be a spoil sport.  Wikipedia:Don't worry about writing essays Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 04:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, point taken. Thanks for the pointer to DWAWE. It will come in handy the next time someone refers to a WP essay when trying to justify their actions. Raymond Arritt 15:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly!  Essays are just random thoughts, until a bunch of people get behind one and promote it to a guideline.  Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 16:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Separate issue

message: Hi.
Can conflict of interest, alone, be grounds for deleting an article or blocking an editor, even if no other policy/guideline violations exist? mike4ty4 02:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Editors can be blocked for spam or vandalism after being warned.  An article can be deleted for non-notability.  These are different issues from COI.  I am not aware of any response to COI other than to ask the editor to refrain from further editing.  The editor would actually have to become disruptive and receive warnings under some other policy before being blocked.  The article would have to qualify for deletion to be deleted.Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 04:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So then, no. COI, alone, is not a sufficient ground for deletion or blocking. mike4ty4 20:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But is common to summarize rather than spell things out in great detail. Someone with a COI who edits in a POV way and is asked to stop and does not stop will likely be blocked with an explaination of "COI" even tho as you point out is was not simply a COI that was the problem. Please don't anybody try to wikilawyer a summary into an accusation of admin abuse. WAS 4.250 22:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion criterion on it's own? 

message: The first glance gave me an impression that the guideline is bloated. It looks like an essay than a guideline. Also it is quite an overreaction in many aspects. For starters, you don't need to scare good-faith editors that much, whereas "bad guys" will surely find a back door. This it a textbook example where just saying "be good" wouldn't work. 
The second thing that worries me that such general guidelines have a dangerous tendency to creep way beyond the original intentions. I will not be surprized that this guideline of self-shying will forbid me writing articles about my native town or country in a year or two. 
:WHO WOULD HAVE KNOWN! Already started! `'mikka 22:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overreacted