Talk:Show cat

message: I added  to the article until we can find an agreeable wording for the disputed section of the article.
:I left notes on the talk pages of most of the other editors of this article since there are not that many.  I think I got everyone who had made either significant edits or a large number of edits.  Hopefully we can get input from a few more people to help resolve this. Dalf | Talk 23:41, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

message: Note that even if defects are detected and removed, the article as I had it (and as it originally was) simply stated that the defects happened at a higher frequency then the normal cat population.  The occurrence of the defects is relevant to breeders and vets and many others and they read encyclopedias too.
* Manx cats born with stubby tails are prone to a type of painful arthritis.
* Manx cat’s shorter tails can cause damage to their spinal cords resulting in problems with spina bifida, bowels, bladder, and digestion as well as bathroom hygiene.
* From the article on Siamese: Many Siamese are cross-eyed to compensate for the abnormal uncrossed wiring of the optic chiasm.  While this may not cause immediate health problems it is a genetic defect.
* All of the hairless breeds including Don Sphynx, Cornish Rex, Devon Rex and Sphynx (cat) have trouble regulating body temperature, as well as exposure to sun.  They also have problems grooming themselves as their skins produce the same oils as if they had all their fur layers meaning that they cannot take care of themselves.  Crossbreeding the Sphynx with the Devon Rex had to be disallowed by breeding rules because it caused serious dental or nervous-system problems.  This at least indicates that the breeds are likely to see these sorts of problems more frequently then the normal population.
* The breeding standard for Tonkinese listed at  lists Rapid oscillation as a disqualifying trait.  Why would they need to specifically eliminate this indication of neurological problems if it did not happen at a higher frequency in this breed?
* This article  indicates that larger gene pools are in fact a contributing factor to increased health. British Shorthairs are strong cats with few health problems. The large gene pool available in establishing this breed and careful, informed breeding practices have helped insure this.
* The Turkish Angora is documented as having a higher rate than "normal" to other cats of hormonal and allergic skin complaints. This is from "Medical, Genetic, & Behavioral Aspects of Purebred Cats", edited by Ross D. Clark, copyright 1992, Forum Publications, Inc., St. Simons Island, Georgia., and is mentioned in  which also discusses the health dangers of inbreeding in the more rare breeds.
*Further evidence if you look on Google for guides about getting a pet cat.  The guides that refer to purebred cats are always more pointed about asking about the cats’ health and any problems that might be encountered.  This does not seem to be as large a concern for general population cats.
* According to  ...cats such as the Persian, Himalayan and Siamese may have genetic problems that can affect their health. Get an idea about breed specific health problems.  Implying that there are breed specific problems.
*I am currently looking for a good source on statistics for deafness which also seems to be more common in pedigreed animals though I do not have the exact numbers yet.
*From  
**However, like most purebred breeds, genetic weaknesses exist in some lines. Notably, some Balinese have problems with gingivitis and the heart disease cardiomyopathy. Tooth care and annual checkups are a must. According to Traditional Cat Association (TCA), the traditional Balinese lacks some of the health concerns of the extreme. Either way, buy from a breeder who offers a health guarantee and registration papers.
**However, because they are so closely related to the Burmese, the Bombay can have some of the same health issues. These can include runny eyes, asymmetrical jaws, and sinus and breathing problems. Reportedly, traditional Bombays have fewer of these problems because their faces are not as extremely flattened. Getting a written health guarantee is a wise practice when purchasing any pedigreed cat.
**Today’s Brit, like its alley cat ancestors, is a healthy, hardy breed. The only significant problem is fading kitten syndrome caused by blood type incompatibility. In the random-bred domestic cat population this is not often a problem, since type B is so rare (less than 10 percent of American domestic cats have type B blood). However, some pedigreed breeds like the British shorthair have higher percentages of B blood type. Nearly 50 percent of American Brits have type B. Type B blood queens bred to type A blood toms can produce both type B and type A kittens. The kittens with type A blood are born apparently healthy but then fade rapidly and die 24 to 72 hours after birth. Breeders have their cats typed to prevent mating cats of differing blood types. Don’t worry, by the time you pick up your kitten all danger of this syndrome has passed.
**Burmese can be prone to gingivitis, so they should get yearly dental checkups and cleanings as needed. Feeding a high quality hard food will help keep their teeth clean, but extra dental care is often needed to keep this breed’s smile bright. Although uncommon, other reported problems that affect contemporary Burmese include cranial deformities in newborn kittens and excessive tearing and breathing problems due to the foreshortened nose.
**The Chartreux is generally a healthy and hardy breed, but some lines are known to possess the gene for patellar luxation (displacement of the kneecap). When severe, this condition can cause pain and lameness. Since the condition is hereditary, many breeders screen their breeding stock for it and exclude questionable cats from their programs. Ask prospective breeders about the condition before you agree to buy. Some Chartreux also tend to get gingivitis if their teeth are not regularly cleaned
**Cymric kittens that inherit two copies of the Manx gene, one from each parent, die before birth and are reabsorbed in the womb. Since these kittens make up about 25 percent of all kittens conceived from Cymric to Cymric matings (and Manx to Manx matings) litters are usually small, usually averaging two, three or four. The Manx gene can also cause severe defects of the spine such as spina bifida, gaps in the vertebrae, fused vertebrae and defects of the colon. These problems usually occur within the first month, but since they can occur within the first four months of age, most breeders keep their kittens for at least 16 weeks. Some of this is repeat of what I listed above.
**The Havana brown had to be reopened for breeding with other breeds in 1998 because of the lack of genetic diversity and the health problems that represented.
**Himalayan health concerns include breathing difficulties, eye tearing, malocclusions and birthing difficulties due to the head size and the flat face of the extreme Himalayan. Reportedly, traditional Himalayans tend to have fewer of these health problems. Polycystic kidney disease (PKD), which can cause kidney failure, is also known to exist in some Persian and Himalayan lines.
**Maine coons are generally very healthy because of their working cat origins. However, some are prone to hip dysplasia and a very serious heart disease called hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.
**Nebelung and Russian blues are often crossed to increas the gene pool.
**The Persian Reported health concerns include breathing difficulties, eye tearing, malocclusions, and birthing difficulties due to the head size and the foreshortened face. Polycystic kidney disease (PKD), a disease that can cause kidney failure, is also known to exist in some Persian lines.
**Scottish Fold Breeding two folds together increases the number of fold kittens in the resulting litters, but also greatly increases the chances of serious skeletal deformities. Homozygous folds (folds that inherit the folded ear gene from both parents) are much more likely to develop a genetic condition that causes crippling distortion and enlargement of the bones
**Siamese are generally healthy but, like most purebred breeds, genetic weaknesses exist in some lines. Notably, some Siamese have problems with gingivitis, a liver-destroying disease called amyloidosis and the heart disease cardiomyopathy.
**Like the Abyssinian, some Somalis have trouble with gingivitis and tooth decay, and require regular check ups, cleanings and tooth brushing to keep their smiles bright. Some Somali lines also have a higher incidence of renal amyloidosis -- a hereditary disease found in Aby bloodlines as well.
**Like the Siamese, Tonks can be prone to gingivitis. Tooth care and annual checkups are a must.
**Deafness is not uncommon in pure white, blue-eyed Turkish Angoras. However, the Angora is no more predisposed to this than any other breed or any random-bred blue-eyed white cat. White cats can be born partially or totally deaf due to a defect in the dominant gene that is responsible for the white coat and blue eye color. This gene has been linked to a form of hereditary deafness that causes degeneration of the organ of Corti in the cochlea.
**Abyssinians are generally healthy but are prone to gingivitis. If not treated, the more serious periodontitis can develop, causing tissue, bone and tooth loss .... Amyloidosis, a disease thought to be hereditary that affects the kidneys, and PK deficiency, which causes anemia, have been found in some Aby lines.
**Generally, the American shorthair is a hardy breed with few health problems, not surprising since the breed developed from strong domestic stock. A relatively large gene pool helps keep the breed healthy. However, a few genetic weaknesses are known to exist in some lines, including a serious heart disease called hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.
**The exotic is essentially a shorthaired Persian, so it’s no surprise that the extreme exotic has some of the same health problems as the extreme Persian.
***Running eyes due to shortened tear ducts
***Sinus and breathing problems caused by the snub nose
***Abridged sinus cavities
***Bite and dental problems caused by asymmetrical jaws
***Polycystic kidney disease (PKD) which can cause renal failure and is known to be present in some Persian lines.''
**Orientals are generally healthy but since they are closely related to Siamese they share some of the same diseases, notably gingivitis, a liver-destroying disease called amyloidosis, and the heart disease cardiomyopathy.
**''
Dalf | Talk 20:41, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Specific examples of health problems 

message: Ooh boy. Another cat fight - really sorry for the bad pun :-). I love staying out of these, but I've been asked to weigh in, and so I will. I'm a purebred owner - four Egyptian Maus, considered a pretty robust breed, but with a fairly small gene pool. My wife and I have not bred Maus, but have showed our cats extensively. Please consider what I have to say as experienced opinion. Four data points for this breed and general observations about purebreds in general from show experience isn't world-class expertise, but perhaps it gives me a bit of credibility. Or perhaps not.
Of the four - one died at age 7 from the combined effects of feline asthma and an inherited heart defect. This was no surprise - he was actually not expected to survive to adulthood. He was meant to be a stud cat. If not for the defect he would have been a fine one. He was a beautiful smoke and has been pictured in books and magazines for the breed in years' past. The defect was caught in his presale physical exam and we became his adoptive family. He was, of course, required to be neutered immediately, as he was NEVER to be allowed to breed with this defect. He actually did quite well and we and our vet expected he would live a full life after a year. At about age 5, he started to exhibit feline asthma, and the combination, to our surprise and that of our vet, was too much for him. His half-sibling started to exhibit feline asthma about age 7, and showed moderate, but treatable skin allergies at about age 5. A distant relative of these two, from one Mau generation earlier, shows the anxiousness that was considered common in the early Maus. I've seen worse in many mixed breeds, and apart from this, she has been impeccably healthy. She's now in her mid-teens and still quite a Mau. The fourth cat came from a different breeder and from somewhat different stock. He may have a light case of asthma, and had a bout with a nasty bacterial infection at the beginning of the year, but with treatment he bounced back and I would say he is also a very healthy cat, as well as an impressive one (and profoundly intelligent and pretty, too, but that's not especially relevant :-)).
What does the above mean? I'd say "not much". Let's add in a bit more data. I have asthma, too, acquired in the last few years - the same period as the cats. It might be in all of our genetics, but the local newspaper has written articles about the explosion of asthma cases in our area. Factor the asthma out and our purebreds, with the exception of the first, might be considered quite healthy specimens. Our vet thinks so, and he's a heavyweight in the vet world (not a cat specialist though - birds and zoo animals).
Let's go back to the concept of ethical, as well as skilled breeders. If the breeder of our first cat wasn't ethical, she might have tried a "fast one". With that particular defect, it isn't likely that a breeder could manage it, but with something more subtle, or which manifests later in life, it's certainly possible. I live in the US; many people in this culture will do ANYTHING for money. We see the puppy mills in the dog world. In a way, we are fortunate that most people aren't too familiar with purebred cats, as demand has a way of attracting Mammon worshipers, to the great detriment of purebred animals. If you have much of this careless breeding going on, the genetics of purebreds will definitely suffer. I think the great majority of cat breeders are highly ethical. Ethics don't protect against the genetics of the situation, however. Early development of a breed requires significant cross-breeding of related animals and even given the strongest ethics and wisest of breeding choices, there will be defective animals. We don't know enough about genetics to insure perfection, but breeders try, and they learn. Some things are easy to eliminate, some are hard. Early specimens of a breed might be more prone to some defects, and breeders work to eliminate them. Breeds with small gene pools are at a big disadvantage, but breeders do their best. I'm not up-to-date with the status of cat genetic research, but based on my knowledge of the state-of-the-art from 5-7 years ago, I felt more could be done. It would require quite a bit of cash to do the research and we don't have a Bill Gates stepping up to drop a few tens of millions of dollars to do what I have in mind. It will get done eventually; perhaps some it has been and I just don't know about it.
One more issue I'd like to touch on: specific breeds. Some cat fanciers like their cats close to the wild. Breeds like the Mau, among many, aren't too far from the wild. They are very close to what nature meant cats to be and they tend to have fewer health problems. When we get to other breeds - let's not beat around the bush - like the Munchkin or the Sphynx, well, we've deviated from the plan quite a bit. They might be expected to have more problems. My limited experience with the Sphynx breed has been quite pleasant by the way; I think the world is a better place for the breed. Breeders and owners of these cats must be extra vigilant to care for these breeds, and for individuals, respectively. I really have a problem with breeds that have been bred to brainlessness - I think cats should be smart, perhaps above any other trait. If someone wants a pretty doorstop, they should buy a doorstop. Anyway, to sum it all up, breeders make ethical choices too when they choose to develop new breeds, and there is a lot of controversy there. I'll state directly that I think there are a few breeds that should not be, but that is very much a personal opinion. If I state that the Munchkin should never have been pursued, that opens the door for someone who opposes all purebreds. It's just a different point on the continuum. Sometimes things happen at the envelope that people push that aren't so nice, but with time we learn.
I don't know that I've added much to what has already been said, other than some personal observations. It looks to me like you aren't too far apart now. I think it would be a mistake to say that defects in purebred cats are in general a serious problem. I don't believe they are. I think it would be a mistake to say defects in purebred cats don't exist above the mixed breed population. In the most highly developed breeds, close to nature and with large gene pools, say the Maine Coon(?), the breed defect level might be very close to zero. A breed that's on the border, either because it's new, or its "strange", or it has a small gene pool may well have a rather high defect level. Breeders will either fix the problem with time, or if not, will hopefully will have the wisdom to let the breed die out if it can't be fixed. That's all we can hope for.
Again, I don't claim great expertise. I'm not trying to fan any flames - I'd like to douse them if I can. We get excited about topics because we care about them. It happens everywhere in the Wikipedia. It takes some practice, but we can pull the heat out of our discussions and just improve the articles. That's what we all want to do. Keep cool all! Catbar (Brian Rock) 01:42, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your comments, I think your statement that to take either extreme stance (not a problem at all vs. a very serious problem) is wrong.  The truth is somewhere in the middle.  Hopefully we can work out an acceptable wording.  I am relatively new to wikipedia (at least in terms of editing), is it a standard practice to play around with the wording on the talk page and reach consensus, doing it in the article seems like an invitation to revert wars.  As too the comments about ethics in breeding, I think this is my main point.  If lack of genetic diversity is not an issue as the current version of the article implies then why are we even talking about ethics?  If its not a danger then it does not matter what your breeding practices are. Dalf | Talk 01:59, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the logic of most people - All inbreeding causes health problems.  All pedigreed cats are inbred.  Therefore, all pedigreed cats have health problems.  For the myriad of reasons above I have explained why this line of logic is not true.  The wording Dalf changed makes the article conform to the faulty logic above, thus my objection.  Pschemp 03:08, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Catbar weighs in

message: Going back and forth is not helping us. It is clear that we disagree on a number of issues some of them semantic and some of them factual.  I propose that we put two or three versions of the paragraph up here (perhaps the three that have been in the article at  different times) and see if we cant work out a neutral wording. Dalf | Talk 03:44, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Progress to resolution 

message: If I wrote it all over this is what I would put.  Pschemp 04:33, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I like this compromise, we coudl ahve probbly saved ourselves a lot of typing (and my suffering bad spelling)if we had gone right to the wording rather than debate the issue. Dalf | Talk 04:39, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Plus it does not use the term moggy which is unknown to most americans and someone on Talk: Cat takes issue with how we were using it here anyway. Dalf | Talk 04:41, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah the moggy term was in there from the original author who I suspect was British.  (Not that there's anything wrong with that)  I didn't like it either, but I didn't want to offend too many people when i did the original editing. Oh well, there's nothing like a good hashing out to make one feel alive.  Pschemp 05:02, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Whee Ha!  I'll let you do the honors.Pschemp 05:09, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was about to ask if you were going to and suggest removing the NPOV tag ... but i'll do it now. Dalf | Talk 05:38, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewritten paragraphs

message: Not to start up any kind of issue again, but the observation was made up above that the article was about show cats and not pedigreed cats or purebred cats. Somewhere along the line, not recently, articles on those topics were set up to  redirect to 'Show cat'. Where we might want to move some of these issues is 'Cat breed' and redirect 'Pedigreed cats' and 'Purebred cats' to that article. I may eventually take this on myself, but I'm leaving town for awhile, and probably won't be available into the middle of next week. If anyone else tackles this, good luck! Catbar (Brian Rock) 10:37, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we might be able to expand the scope of this article to include the terms more fully as well.  Though I am not saying that is the best solution, I am asking if we think it might be. Dalf | Talk 18:03, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the redirects as suggested. Pschemp | Talk 06:35, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Show cat / pedigreed cat