Talk:New chronology (Fomenko)

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110928043524/http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/JOURNAL/VRAN/2004/FALSCI.HTM to http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/JOURNAL/VRAN/2004/FALSCI.HTM
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060911155951/http://www.radikalkritik.de/AntiquaMater1.pdf to http://www.radikalkritik.de/AntiquaMater1.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080413014454/http://www.chronologia.org/car/04cs1.html to http://chronologia.org/car/04cs1.html
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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: War and Memory in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus compares the NC with new-Stalinist literature and discusses why it is popular.
Modern Pagan and Native Faith Movements in Central and Eastern Europe "At the onset of the twenty-first century, the activity of the young radical right from the People's National Party, the Clan of Nav', the National Liberation Movement of Russia, and the Russian National Socialist Party grew. Even though these activists avoid public politics, they do not hesitate to use force against their enemies. They effectively combine Russian Orthodoxy with Neopaganism, although referring more often to the German than to the Slavic Pagan tradition. They admire pseudo-scientific books that present the “new chronology” of Anatolii Fomenko, the “Aryan-Vedic” fantasies of Aleksandr Asov, and introductions into “the history of the Rus’” of Yurii Petukhov. They identify themselves as the “warrior caste” and are eager to cruelly punish the “traders’ caste.”"p,68 "Rodnovers use social networks to discuss a wide range of topics. A relatively large amount of discussion is focused on the history of the pre-Christian and Medieval Rus. Topics that tend to raise quarrels and kholivar (a Russification of the English phrase “holy war”) include themes connected to relations with Christianity. Discussions about different conspiracy theories and alternative theories of history (such as the “theory of the Hyperborea” and Fomenko's “new chronology”) are conducted regularly." p,324 Doug Weller talk 12:56, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the link Doug Weller. I am starting to think that creating an article solely devoted to the Russian Horde (currently a redirect) may be worth given the richness of literature concerning it and the many exquisite details there is no room to mention in this article. Any thoughts? Lappspira (talk) 13:07, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like we have one. "Nationalist Imaginings of the Russian Past: Anatolii Fomenko and the ....https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=3898219151 Konstantin Sheiko, ‎Dr. Stephen Brown - 2009 - ‎Snippet view -"Some of that inconvenient information related to what Fomenko calls the Russian Horde and what the West knew as the Golden Horde or Grand Tartaria. Fomenko argues that this mysterious Eurasian empire began in the 1300s when the person whom we currently know as lvan Kalita, founded not Moscow, as conventional historians believe, but the Russian Horde dynasty." At least we have Golden Horde so we'd either need a different name or a section in it. But maybe start a section here? Then spin it off? Doug Weller talk 14:39, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Fomenkos methods are somewhat well described in the article, now what is somewhat missing is how he fills the void. I suggest we add a section title somewhat like World history as proposed by.. with two subsections Russian Horde and Notable duplicates. Then when the Russian Horde section has grown enough we can split it to a separate article. Lappspira (talk) 14:58, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nice to see more work being done, two other sources 

message: Dear Wikipedists,
I've been invited for the first time in this page by user "Ymblanter", after a rejection of one of my corrections to the article. First and foremost, I want to express my gratitude for this offering to dialogue.
Regarding the article, it seems to me that contains at least two errors of objective nature and some other that could be named as subjective, that I will mention later for you to discuss.
Objective Error #1: (Fomenko's Methods - Astronomical Evidence)
----Actual wording with remarks: "He says the mysterious drop in the value of the lunar acceleration parameter D" ("a linear combination of the [angular] accelerations of the Earth and Moon"[31]) between the years AD 700–1300, which the American astronomer Robert Newton _had explained_(??) in terms of "non-gravitational" forces.By _eliminating_(?) those anomalous early eclipses the New Chronology produces a constant value of D" beginning around AD 1000."
----Critique: 1. Redaction is confusing, not explicit about what Fomenko claims. 2. The fact is, Robert R. Newton *could not explain* parameter D" variation: Summary of his research says literally: "There are no satisfactory explanations of the accelerations. Existing theories of tidal friction are quite inadequate.".
It's worth mentioning that the lack of a rational explanation for this observation led to a discussion organized by The Royal Society of London and the British Academy of Sciences in 1972 which "failed to elucidate the situation in any way". This circumstance leads to R.R. Newton to "suggest to attribute the leap to *certain mysterious extra-gravitational forces* in the Earth-Moon system.". i.e. The drop in lunar acceleration parameter D" and its later increase to normal levels *remains unexplained* nowadays (2019), if consensual chronology isn't to be questioned by any means.
However, changing the date of the ancient eclipses with those dates obtained for them by *Morozov* (not by Fomenko), to recompute parameter D" using R.R. Newton's *own method* had the effect to make this "mysterious extra-gravitational force" disappear, because parameter D" variation is consistent with current astronomical observations. That is, about the 'early eclipses', Fomenko did not 'eliminate' them, but *substituted its date* (more info as follows)
----Proposed alternative wording: "The mysterious drop in the value of the lunar acceleration parameter D" ("a linear combination of the [angular] accelerations of the Earth and Moon"[31]) between the years AD 700–1300, whose discoverer American astronomer Robert Newton and colleagues could not explain and attributed to "certain mysterious extra-gravitional forces in the Earth-Moon system", could be made non-existent by replacing the consensual date of the eclipses used by R.R.Newton to the date for those eclipses as computed by Morozov, nearly a century before him."
This explanation makes the matter less ludicrous, but exposes better the reality of the events involving: ancient eclipses - R.R.Newton - parameter D"- Fomenko - Morozov.
Objective Error #2: (Fomenko's Methods - Astronomical Evidence)
----Actual wording with remarks: "In his final analysis of an eclipse triad described by the ancient Greek Thucydides in History of the Peloponnesian War, Fomenko dates the eclipses to AD 1039, 1046 and 1057. Because of the layered structure of the manuscript, he claims that Thucydides actually lived in medieval times and in describing the Peloponnesian War between the Spartans and Athenians he was actually describing the conflict between the medieval Navarrans and Catalans _in Spain_(??) from AD 1374 to 1387."
----Critique: 1. There was no war between Navarrans and Catalans in Spain from AD 1374 to 1387. 2. There was a conflict between medieval Navarrans and medieval Catalans in *Athens, Greece* from AD 1374 to 1387. Belligerents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navarrese_Company , conflict description: control of Duchy of Athens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company#Duchies_of_Athens_and_Neopatras
This conflict is what Fomenko identifies as "Peloponessian War" of  430 B.C. Proof/Reference: "14.3. The mediaeval Navarrans as the “ancient” Spartans. The mediaeval *Catalan state in Athens* as the “ancient” Athenian state" http://chronologia.org/en/seven/2N031a-EN.pdf
Wikipedia explaining "conflict between medieval Navarrans and Catalans _in Spain_" is also *contradictory* with Fomenko's own elaboration on the matter, as it associates *actual and tangible Peloponessian War archaeological findings* on *Greek soil* to the Navarrans-Catalans conflict over Duchy of Athens *in Athens*. (Please read 'Commentary' of page 280 of above link)
----Proposed alternative wording: Simply replace "In Spain" with "In Greece" (or "In Athens"): "In his final analysis of an eclipse triad described by the ancient Greek Thucydides in History of the Peloponnesian War, Fomenko dates the eclipses to AD 1039, 1046 and 1057. Because of the layered structure of the manuscript, he claims that Thucydides actually lived in medieval times and in describing the Peloponnesian War between the Spartans and Athenians he was actually describing the conflict between the medieval Navarrans and Catalans in Greece from AD 1374 to 1387."
Now I will talk about personal, perceived subjective errors of the article for discussion. I think this elements taint the article with parciality, as if it were more aimed to 'prevent' interested readers on the theory than to expose the matter at hand.
----Subjective Error #1: Attribution of "pseudohistorical theory" tag.
----Critique: "Historical reconstruction" from New Chronology is a "tentative" and "hypotetical" *byproduct* of its main findings. New Chronology just disputes current Chronology, and that forces "Historical Revisionism", which can be legitimate: "legitimate historical revisionism is a common and not especially controversial process of developing and refining the writing of history".
"Not disputing" chronology is, de facto, a main attribute of pseudohistory, as seen in wikipedia's own article on the matter. Most "New Chronology" refutations fall under "ad consequentiam" fallacies, seldom relative to the statistical, astronomical and mathematic methods that serve as a foundation to the whole construct.
It's not a regular and familiar "pseudoscience" like many others after the fact that, should by any means be proven right, then another accepted, orthodox full established science (orthodox chronology,history) will occupy its place as pseudoscience.
Verifiable fact: Proving wrong the historical reconstruction of "New Chronology" doesn't prove wrong the chronological reconstruction of New Chronology. But the opposite is true, proving wrong the chronological reconstruction of N.C. proves wrong also it's historical reconstruction. New Chronology is not 'New History', but rather 'implies' it.
----Proposed Alternative wording: Attribution of "tentative orthodox chronology refutation using statistical, mathematical, and astronomic methods which would imply radical and global historical revisionism" tag.
----Subjective Error #2:  "Derived" vs "Related" 
----Critique: Article says "The central concepts of the New Chronology are _derived_ from the ideas of Russian scholar...". 
Fomenko, Morozov, Harduin, Newton, etc.. are not "continuing" the works of their predecessors. The subject "Criticism of orthodox chronology" is what *relates* them. Morozov made use of eclipse redating, Harduin motives are unknown, Newton used exegetic methods, Fomenko uses math, statistical, astronomical methods... Their work is *related* not *derived*.
----Proposed Alternative wording: replace "derived" with "related": "The central concepts of the New Chronology are related to the ideas of Russian scholar..."
---Subjective sugerence #1: Mentioning "The Crime of Cladius Ptolomy" while explaining Fomenko's refutation of the Almagest.
---Motives: It can be of interest to the reader to know that, while researching ancient astronomical events to compute D" parameter, above mentioned R.R. Newton came to the conclusion the Almagest was not only an unreliable account of astronomical observations, but moreover, a blatant forgery. He wrote a book about that called "The Crime of Claudius Ptolomy". That was the motivation for Fomenko and its group to do their own research on the matter.
---Proposed modification: "He argues that the star catalog in the Almagest, ascribed to the Hellenistic astronomer Claudius Ptolemy (which incidentally R.R. Newton accused of being a forgery in his book "The Crime of Claudius Ptolomy"), was compiled in the 15th to 16th centuries AD. With this objective in sight he develops new methods of dating old stellar catalogues and claims that the Almagest is based on data collected between AD 600 and 1300, whereby the telluric obliquity[clarification needed] is well taken into account."
---Subjective sugerence #2: Mentioning Fomenko's dating on the Round Denderah Zodiac.
---Motives: As both the Denderah Zodiac and the byzantine emperor Andronikos Komenos as Jesus are mentioned, can be of interest (both for further research or further mockering) that the former is dated by Fomento precisely to the date of 20 - March - 1185, or the passover of Christ following its own reconstruction.
---Proposed modification: "He refines and completes Morozov's analysis of some ancient horoscopes, most notably, the so-called Dendera Zodiacs—two horoscopes drawn on the ceiling of the temple of Hathor—and comes to the conclusion that they correspond to either the 11th or the 13th century AD. Moreover, in his History: Fiction or Science series finale, he makes computer-aided dating of all 37 Egyptian horoscopes that contain sufficient astronomical data, and claims they all fit into 11th to 19th century timeframe.[clarification needed] Traditional history usually either interprets these horoscopes as belonging to the 1st century BC or suggests that they weren't meant to match any date at all. Round Zodiac of Dendera would reflect the passover of Christ under its own reconstrucion: 20 - March - 1185, the date when Andronikos (persona of Jesus inside Fomenko's paradigm) was crucified."
Hoping not having wasted our time, I wait for your comments.
Carlos  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjbaiget (talk • contribs) 16:54, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Navarrans vs Catalans" as the "Peloponessian War", and suggestions. 

message: Hello again,
I would like to reflect on the following sentence stated in the article:
"The theory emerged alongside other alternate histories and conspiracy literature in the period of increased freedom of speech that followed the break-up of the Soviet Union."
Really? How it comes that it didn't emerge *before* freedom of speech in the Soviet Union?? I think, that someone has bitten truly deep the hook of "correlation as causality" this time.
What have we just read three paragraphs above? "The *central concepts* of the New Chronology are derived(sic) from the ideas of Russian scholar Nikolai Morozov."(1854–1946). i.e. The exact time of *least freedom of speech* is the true time frame when the theory "chronological inconsistency" emerged (he spent 25 years in prison for political reasons). How could it be? Only with the help of *important figures in the scientific sphere of the epoch*, (including the great Mendeleyev, but that's another, very interesting story).
The truth is just the opposite of what is told in this article with that sentence. Btw, the conclusion comes from a person who is an historian. What does that mean? Isn't an successful historian an enough qualified person to refute New Chronology claims? From my point of view, no, because *historians are a party in this trial*. (metaphor: If Fomenko is "innocent", then Historians are "guilty").
Refutation *must* come from mathematicians and astronomers for one part, and/or physicists for other part (as designers of absolute dating methods-equipment).
Conclusion: I honestly think that this remark fits the very definition of tautology: "a statement that is true by necessity or by virtue of its logical form.", and deserves just to be ommited, or framed as what it is: one party's argument about New Chronology *causes*, not New Chronology *claims*.
Let's trace the single "cause" of New Chronology (Fomenko's branch), the *purportedly 'sociological' phenomenon* addressed by the historian critic mentioned (btw, link to the article is broken):
 
Verifiable fact: In that epoch ("the period of increased freedom of speech"), Fomenko works as mathematician and tries to solve famous Parameter D" anomaly from colleague R.R. Newton. That's what opens this 'Pandora's Box', not any other thing. The attribution of 'conspiracy' to the *motives* or *explanations* of how this theory came to be, instantly appears as a "conspiracy theory" in itself, as is evidenced to any critical and sceptical mind that makes his own research on the matter.
p.d.: Although a proposer of the modification, I will not take the action to modify it, hoping that my argument is solid enough for another person consider it.
Carlos
Cjbaiget (talk) 09:32, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  time of theory emergence 

message: I think that we can improve this section on the article belonging to "Fomenko's claims" greatly, as the supposed relation between them is quite incomprehensible for the reader and incomplete now.
This is the current text that I'm going to comment:
He claims: the "First Rome" or "Ancient Rome" or "Mizraim" is an ancient Egyptian kingdom in the delta of the Nile with its capital in Alexandria, that the second and most famous "New Rome" is Constantinople, and that the third "Rome" is constituted by three different cities: Constantinople (again), Rome in Italy, and Moscow. Also according to his claims, Rome in Italy was founded around AD 1380 by Aeneas and Moscow as the third Rome was the capital of the great "Russian Horde".[22][23]
According to NC-Fomenko, there are not *three* but *five* Romes, and actual Italian Rome is none of them, but 'pretends' to be third. This fact is not stated anywhere in the current paragraph. Moreover, the paragraph above mixes two counting systems: the short (three Romes), and the long (five Romes) which explains the confusion the reader experiments when trying to understand the text even from the mere semantic point of view.
quote from the the *already referred primary source on the previous paragraph*:
:"To summarise,
:1st Rome: the Nile Valley (Alexandria, Cairo); 
:2nd Rome: Yoros = Jerusalem = Troy; 
:3rd Rome: Vladimir-Suzdal Rus' = Veliky Novgorod (Yaroslavl, Vladimir) = Rome of Enei-Rurik;
:4th Rome; Constantinople; 
:5th Rome: Moscow.
:But when in the XVI century Romes were counted, where Moscow was numbered as the Third Rome (and not the Fifth), they have clearly started counting not from the deep antiquity of African Egypt, but from Rome of Enei-Rurik, i.e. from Yaroslavl, from the Empire of the great conquest epoch: Veliky Novgorod – First Rome, Constantinople – Second Rome, Moscow – Third Rome. Hereafter the historians replaced Veliky Novgorod with Rome in Italy and the present picture panned was formed."
Moreover, Fomenko maintains that the 5th Rome in Moscow was founded in 1380 just after the battle of Kulikovo, very near in time to his proposed date of foundation of the City of Rome in Italy near 1380.
So I propose the following rewriting on the paragraph "Rome according Fomenko":
:"On the other hand, according to Fomenko the word "Rome" is a placeholder and can signify any one of several different cities and kingdoms, but not being actual Rome in Italy any of the true historical five Romes. 
:He claims the "First Rome" (historical Ancient Rome) or "Mizraim" is actually the ancient Egyptian kingdom in the Nile Delta with its capital in Alexandria, Cairo. The "Second Rome" or "New Rome" would have been located near Istambul, in the actual ruins of Yoros Castle, and having passed to history as the city of Jerusalem (not being the actual Jerusalem in Middle East the true place the chronicles talk about).
:The third Rome would have been located in Vladimir-Suzdal (the actual Veliky Novgorod in Yaroslavl, Vladimir), its history would be the one told on Aeneid (Aeneas being a duplicate of Rurik according Fomenko) 
:The fourth Rome would have been Constantinople, in the same place of the actual Istambul
:The fifth Rome would have been Moscow (founded in 1380 just after the Battle of Kulikovo)
:According Fomenko, after some errors when counting "Romes" in the 14th century they omitted the first two, leaving Moscow as the third. Then later historians replaced Veliki-Novgorod (Fomenko's 3rd Rome) with Rome in Italy which would have been founded around AD 1380 by Aeneas, forming the "present picture". Also according to his claims, Moscow (as the 3rd Rome) was the capital of the great "Russian Horde".[22][23]
Cjbaiget (talk) 19:51, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Romes' according NC/Fomenko 

message: Hello all,
I few days ago I was surprised by this reject: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Chronology_%28Fomenko%29&type=revision&diff=945154146&oldid=945061240, not only because it dismissed my contribution without any suggestion on how to improve it, but also because it seems to imply that the geographical scope of the theory HAS to be anchored as it was in 1996 for some unknown reason. I think that this makes no sense, and I know of no event that made this year more relevant than any other in this regard.
Reflecting on this, I think that the problem may stem from the fact that I began the sentence of my update using "By 2020....".
Although I just wanted to keep the previous style to not force my own one, now I think that it was perceived as if I wanted to suggest that NC/Fomenko is an ongoing succesful research, or not being already settled by science, etc., consideration which seems to bear his own controversy, that I was not aware of previously.
This is not the case: I just couldn't anticipate the possibility of this valoration from a reader. I intepreted the previous date as a guarantee of the article being maintained in its date, and thought that replacing with 2020 would transmit the same sensation to current readers. But nowadays, the "1996" mention makes the impression of the article being abandoned and far behind many other places making their own exposition of the same subject as us.
All this probably was aggravated by the mention of the museum in the same edit, which probably was not welcomed for the same reason. Regarding this, I'm not taking part on if this museum is relevant news or not, but I think is relevant in this article, and already has a well defined context where to put it. On this, I will not insist anymore. I will mention it here again only if the museum closes, a second one opens, or any other destacable event around it happens that I get to know.
Anyway, no less than 24 years have passed since the current readaction and, at some time, the theory certainly expanded his scope to include the regions I placed in the edit, which, as far as I know, reflect quite accurately the state of the matter in the publications.
So I suggest to just remove the "By XXXX..." (year) part and just detail the current geographical scope of the theory. We can also benefit from the very low probability of further expansions (Africa, Oceania, Antarctica, etc.) in the future.
So, this is my new proposal to update this circumstance with a reading free of any ongoing research connotations, subject whose valoration and relevance can be discussed elsewhere.
PROPOSAL:
an edit that replaces "By 1996 his theory had grown to cover Russia, Turkey, China, Europe, and Egypt."
with "His theory covers Russia, Turkey, China, Japan, Europe, Egypt, and America."
Cjbaiget (talk) 01:48, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that in 1996 his theory had grown to cover Russia, Turkey, China, Europe, and Egypt is sourced. If you America is now covered as well then you need to get a source that would allow you to write "in [year] his theory was extended to America" or "in 2020 his theory also includes America". --Lebob (talk) 10:04, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry but I cannot see which circumstance made invalid the source that I already proposed in the rejected edit. Btw and to clarify, I'm not particularly interested in specifying any year at all, or remarks about it having being "extended" or similar terms (neither I'm against those remarks)Cjbaiget (talk) 11:09, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geographical scope of the theory 

message: In this section, Wikipedia raises erroneous misconceptions from Yu. N. Efremov as its own voice regarding supposed arbitrary selection of data.
Current assertion in the wikipedia article: "For his dating of the Almagest star catalog, Fomenko arbitrarily selected eight stars from the more than 1000 stars in the catalog, one of which (Arcturus) has a large systematic error. This star has a dominant effect on Fomenko's dating".
Relevant quotes around this matter from "Astronomical methods as applied to chronology. Ptolemy's Almagest. Tycho Brahe. Copernicus. The Egyptian zodiacs" (the work Efremov refers to):
*Chapter 7.4 "Dating the Almagest catalogue by the expanded informative kernel", P. 181:
        "Corollary: Thus, the Almagest catalogue can be dated by the proper movement of a configuration of roughly 20  stars. The  most  possible  dating  interval falls  on  the  same  epoch  as  above, namely, 600-1200a.d."
        Meaning: Dating by 'arbitrary selection of 8 stars' is not a requisite, just an Efremov's misconception.
*Chapter 7.5. "Dating the Almagest calogue by a variety of 8-star configurations consisting of bright stars", P. 182:
        "Fig 7.24. Frequency distribution histogram for the “dating interval” centres of 736 bright Almagest star configurations of 8. One can see the peak manifest at the interval of 600-900 a.d."
        Meaning: Any 8-star group that can be made from the 736 bright stars (mag < 3) is most likely to give dates post-400 A.D., so "Fomenko's selection" is just a sample of the most common case, not an anomaly as implied by Yu. N. Efremov misconception.
*Chapter 7.6.4. "The exclusion of Arcturus does no affect the dating of the Almagest catalogue substantially", P.185:
        "even with the fastest star of the  informative  kernel  (Arcturus)  absent, the  10-minute  area  does  not  go  further  back  in  time  than 300 a.d.(t=16) at the trust level of 1 – ε= 0.95 or lower. It is only if we are to extend the confidence strip to 1 – ε= 0.99, or 99%, that this area begins to cover 200 a.d., which is to say that the Scaligerian epoch of Ptolemy  is  not  included  into  the  dating  interval, let alone the even more ancient Scaligerian epoch of Hipparchus."
        Meaning: On the contrary of what wikipedia asserts right now and for a long time, this star (Arcturus) HAS NOT a dominant effect on Fomenko's dating, as follows only from Yu. N. Efremov misconception.
So on the basis of verifiable concerns regarding this claim, and for the sake of wikipedia's own credibility and objectivity, I propose the elimination of it, or better yet, a thoroughly explanation based on an actual understanding of the subject.
Cjbaiget (talk) 10:21, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Errors or worse in section "Selectivity in reference to astronomical phenomena" 

message: The article was moved from New Chronology (Fomenko) to New chronology (Fomenko) on 22 July, without discussion, "per MOSCAPS' guidance on theories". Now, I don't particularly care which capitalization is correct, but the talk page archives (there are two of them, by the way) didn't get moved, so the links are now broken. Please fix. 80.225.163.154 (talk) 04:20, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Done March 2021 apparently. Johnbod (talk) 01:07, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article move and broken archive links 

message: Has anyone else noticed that this article opens with unsourced statements?BRealAlways (talk) 15:51, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: , that is not uncommon. See WP:LEADCITE. The lead should summarize the main points of the body, and that information should be sourced in the body. Whether the citations should be included in the lead as well is determined by editors on a case-by-case basis. If you feel there are specific statements in this lead that need references, you can add them or raise those for discussion. Schazjmd (talk) 15:55, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Opening 

message: Note Tartary#Tartaria conspiracy theory, not sure if that content might make more sense here, or as an independent article.--Pharos (talk) 19:03, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Architectural off-shoot conspiracy theory