Talk:Geoffrey Marcy

message: Comments Welcome - re the "Geoffrey Marcy" article - a "WP:BLP" article afaik - is all *entirely* ok with the content of this article? - and in agreement with the very best policies of Wikipedia? - or not? - is there some better way of presenting the content of the article? - please understand that it's *entirely* ok with me to rm/rv/mv/ce my edits of course - Thanking you in advance for your help with this - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 23:36, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: BRIEF Followup - related relevant comments are copied below - hope this helps in some way - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 02:23, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

text: Are there any parts of the content you are particularly concerned about? I don't think you can expect someone to give the blanket approval you're looking for. I'd say the article inappropriately relies on primary sources and gives far too many quotes. It also seems to give a one-sided account of the sexual harassment issue, with Marcy's and his supporters' reactions covered in detail and the inappropriate conduct itself barely mentioned. I don't think that can be considered neutral coverage. Huon (talk) 00:57, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you *very much* for your comments - they're *greatly* appreciated - seems you've covered all my concerns re the article - and more - your comments seem sufficiently worthy imo to be copied to "Talk:Geoffrey Marcy#Comments Welcome" - to help interested editors - please let me know if otherwise of course - Thanks again for your comments - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 02:08, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments Welcome 

message: I'm not touching the article directly because I was way too involved, but despite them being recent events, there needs to be significantly more focus on substantiated allegations against Geoff that he, over a period of multiple decades, committed criminal sexual assaults against his students.  This isn't a 1E issue - it's been picked up by way too many outlets (including in at least a dozen languages) or 1E issues to be a worry.  He's not only been condemned by his own faculty, he's been condemned by the President of his own academic society, has been entangled with corruption among UCB's administration, has had public condemnations of his behavior (and UCB's admin) issued by an Australian astronomer with familiarity with his behavior, has been condemned by over 3,000 people who are primarily academics in related fields, and has been condemned in public by multiple prominent UCB faculty members, as well as entire departments at other schools.  Although [www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=1768 Michael Eisen]'s blog is an SPS and unusuable, Ellen Simms, prominent IB prof at UCB had published an oped in the Daily Cal, which has generally been found to meet the standards of WP:RS.  Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:49, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: *Correcting my original edit, since Michael Eisen's piece also ran on a UCB blog that has editorial supervision (though allows opinion, which is perfectly in compliance with NPOV,) Eisen's piece is usable (and in the article currently). Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:32, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Woefully insufficient regarding his behavior 

message: Since he has published a mea culpa letter, and the University report found a decades-long pattern of harassment, I think using the term "Allegations" in the Sexual Harassment section title is entirely inappropriate and misleading.  "Sexual Harassment Scandal" is more NPOV.  68.7.246.26 (talk) 00:52, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Allegations"?  Seriously? 

message: Hi  - thank you again for your recent edits to this page. Although given the amount of COI involved on all sides involved, I fully support rollbacks of material that isn't explicitly discussed on the talk section, I think most of the edits were reasonable. I can't cite a policy offhand, but I definitely think it's reasonable to split off the lede paragraphs was done. The in the media section is a little bit more tricky since they are sometimes acceptable, but where they are included they should be written in prose, and the fact that the in the media selection included only positive mentions of Marcy (when by an absolute count of media mentions, certainly a large plurality if not majority of lifetime mentions are negative) presents WP:UNDUE issues. Such sections per MOS:POPCULT should generally also be written in prose instead of in bulletted points - but I see the WP:UNDUE aspect as being a bigger problem.  Best, Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:22, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: - Thank you for your comments - yes - agree w/ all you noted - no problem whatsoever - *entirely* ok w/ me to rv/mv/ce my own edits of course - Thanks again - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 21:46, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi  - if you agree with the gist of my post, I'd love it if you made the edits yourself. For various reasons related to my extreme degree of direct involvement in real-life models related to Marcy, I'm extremely hesitant to edit the article myself directly. Best, Kevin Gorman (talk) 07:30, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you for your post - comments/edits from others welcome as well - esp after 1st discussing major edits on the talk page of course - in any case - Thanks again for your post - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 12:00, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: I just reverted the comments of  because they made it VERY difficult to tell what author said what.  Water, please feel free to readd your comments (you can find them in past versions accessed through the view history button,) but please do so in a way that leaves it clear what I said vs what you said vs what someone else said.  Additionally, please do not make any changes to the article that have not been discussed and agreed upon by at least one editor who does not have a conflict of interest (preferably one established editor, since almost all new editors at this article will have a COI.)  Given the magnitude of your own COI, I'd actually go as far as to request that you do not edit the article directly yourself - at all - and rather we both leave direct article edits to those without COIs.  (Unless I'm drastically mistaken, your COI is actually bigger than mine, which is an impressive statement.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 09:19, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent rv of  WaterEarthFlowers' comments 

message: UC Berkeley released the documents related to the Title IX investigation of Geoff Marcy on December 17, 2015, in which the investigation report for the case as well as several new documents were made available through a Public Records Act request to the University. The original documents released by UC Berkeley, as well as a summary of the incidents are posted here. Note that the Title IX investigation report shows that much of what @KevinGorman, BuzzFeed, Michael Eisen, and numerous other sources wrote about Geoff Marcy is incorrect. This is the first time that the actual facts of the case are available. Since Wikipedia is going for truth rather than hearsay, my edits serve to clarify what is documented about the case. 
I would like to revert @KevinGorman's reversion of all of my changes and allow any editing to start from there. 
Major changes include:
-Addition of link to Breakthrough Listen project that Marcy brought to UC Berkeley in the intro section.
-Addition of link to PRA documents from the Title IX investigation and a link to Geoff Marcy's web page where he has posted the UCB documents and his response to the investigation
-Clarification that none of the allegations involved sex or request for sex.
-Correction that Marcy did not resign from UC Berkeley, but retired, effective December 31, 2015.
-Updated link to Marcy's website.
-Addition of information showing that one complainant retracted her statement and the supposed "victim" of the incident submitted an email to "clear up misconceptions and unintentional lies" about the incident. Emails from the complainant show that the she only retracted her statement after Marcy had stepped down. This is noteworthy, and the record should be corrected to show this. My previous edits that @KevinGorman wiped out were a good-faith effort to do so, as well as provide links to the original documents that the University released. The actual text I added is: 
The UC Berkeley documents associated with the investigation were released on December 17, 2015, showing that one of the remaining complainants (who felt harassed by watching Dr. Marcy help an intoxicated woman at a party) "corrected" her statement after Marcy stepped down from his faculty position. The woman receiving assistance (who never filed a complaint) submitted an updated statement to "clear up the misconceptions and unintentional lies that were included in the report." 
For reference, here is a comparison of the complainant's original statement (p. 71ff in the PRA documents) to the corrected statement (p. 48-50 in the PRA documents).
Original statement:
The rest of this story I know by talking to the student afterwards, but I did not witness myself: By the end of the evening a friend saw Geoff walking the student out of the club and getting into a cab with her. The student was so drunk she could barely walk. Her friend grabbed her and put her in a different cab to get her away from Geoff. Apparently Geoff then followed her back to her hotel room and asked to enter the room. He got into bed with her and started massaging her. The other student she was sharing a room with came home and walked in on him in bed with the student. He tried to convince the student to come back to his room with him, but she said she was too drunk to move, so he left. After the incident, I emailed the student recounting what I witnessed in the cab and at the club and asking her if she was OK or needed help. She said that Geoff Marcy was writing her letters of reference for graduate school, and while she did feel very uncomfortable with what happened, she didn't want to do anything about it because she really needed his letters.
Once confronted by the "victim" of being helped back to her hotel room, the complainant retracted the worst part of her story in an email that was sent to the Title IX office on October 14, after Marcy had been hounded out of the astronomy department. In that email, she said:
 The student never worked with Geoff and she didn't have him write letters for her for graduate school. She had told me he was "helping her with grad school stuff" which I thought she meant writing letters, but apparently he was just giving her advice, etc.
    The student says she was not wearing a skirt that night.
    The part of the statement from the hotel room is wrong. I had heard that part of the story from another Berkeley grad student, but the grad student told me something different that what the undergrad student and the witnesses remember. She will be giving you a corrected report about what happened, but she is asking that I remove that section from my statement.''
Corrected Statement:
I left the party before the student, but I heard from other graduate students that people saw Geoff leave with her and they ended up back at the conference hotel together. After the incident, I talked to the student about what I witnessed in the cab and at the club and asking her if she was OK or needed help. She said that while Geoff's behavior that night was weird, and made her uncomfortable, he had been nice to her otherwise and was very helpful with advice about graduate school.
Emails from the "victim" (who did not file a complaint) and her roommate (see p. 51 in the PRA documents) show that Marcy and another woman helped the drunk student back to her hotel room and dropped her off with her roommate.
WaterEarthFlowers (talk) 04:21, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Release of Title IX Investigation Documents from UC Berkeley

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: GM’s behavior is a trending topic on Twitter at the moment, and the information is new to me. But it’s clear to me I’m out of the loop for an astronomy nerd, so came here for more information. At first I thought the subject wasn’t even covered. It is, buried within his career section, and based on what I am reading, it doesn’t adequately cover his actions, and the actions/inactions of those in a position to stop his despicable behavior. 
This part of his biography needs it’s own section & must be expanded. Someone with better knowledge of this should do this. It’s clear there are plenty of people out there who have the knowledge necessary - they’re posting threads on Twitter. SiobhanElizabeth (talk) 04:53, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Discussions on twitter or other social media aren't reliable sources. If you have published reliable sources that cover aspects of the issue that aren't addressed in the article, please post them here. Schazjmd (talk) 14:33, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

text: moved sexual assault information out of academic career section. Academic career should focus on career accomplishments, not topics outside their area of specialty. Moved sexual assault info to a new H2 section. Jonkatora (talk) 22:37, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still inadequate re: his inappropriate behavior