Talk:Yehoshua Sofer

message: I am currently working to make this article more than just a stub.  It is going to take some time to go about seperating information in terms of what his historical and what is a claim of the Abir Martial art.--EhavEliyahu 17:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am also going to add information about the Habbani Jews who are said to have been warriors for some of the Sultans in Arabia.--EhavEliyahu 17:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Expansion

message: Also Benforman and user 130.88.132.175 can you make sure to sign your comments using the signature button.  It makes it easier to keep up with.  Thanks.--EhavEliyahu 17:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please Leave Signatures 

message: I didn't add them but can see why they were added, try reading WP:NPOV, about phrasing things neutrally. Secitons of this read like an advert to recruit for and promote the art, rather than dispassionately reporting facts. I removed the title as it is normal not to include them repeatedly. --Nate1481(t/c) 15:41, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have done some major rewording to that technique sections. I think that should address the NPOV issues. Let me know.--EhavEliyahu 18:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great improvements!  The only and last NPOV issue I see is the first paragraph under "Modern System": "...expertise in various aspects of "cold" combat that few come close to matching." Do something about this and feel free to take the "new release" tag down. Also, the Sofer's name should not be preceded by "Grandmaster"; you can say "Sofer is the Grandmaster of...", but you can't refer to him as "Grandmaster Sofer".  After that the article is a very solid B-Class article.  If you're interested in improving it further, check out WP:GA?. It still needs some general manual of style-related cleanup, but in particular, the article spends considerable space reviewing the history of Jewish warriors, without specifically stating the relevance of that information.  Is the article trying to say that all of the those warriors practiced Abir?  This is unclear at present.  It would also be helpful to have information regarding the actual development of Abir (which from the pictures of its modern practice, appears to strongly resemble Chinese martial arts), or discussion of how the information is lost or disputed (if such information does not exist or is disputed). Bradford44 20:15, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will work on the last NPOV for now, and work on the rest later. The connection between the ancient Abir information and the modern system is that they are both connected and that some of the ancient form was passed down in certain Jewish communities. One of the biggest arguments about the article and Abir in general was that some people believe that there was no evidence of a Jewish martial art that ever existed. According to the Abir information FAQ the sources like the Sefer Ha-Yashar mention the Qesheth aspect of Abir that had been passed down through Jewish communities in North African, Asia and Arabia. I haven't seen any information that disputes, with evidence, that Jews in Arabia, Asia, and Africa didn't pass down any form of martial arts techniques. I have seen people claim that the information didn't exist and when provided with the info in the beginning of the article I have seen any refutations. I think the main basis is that Abir, in terms of some of its look, is not completely different than other martial arts. One of of the videos listed at the bottom of the article there is a video Grandmaster Sofer showing the difference between a certain Abir technique and some of the Japanese martial arts. The videos do more justice for the techniques than the pictures. Besides there are only so many ways that a body can move. I would also say that the categorization of the moves is different the Chinese martial arts. In fact, there are elements of Abir that look similar to Silat Mumbai.--EhavEliyahu 00:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I almost forget the section on the Banu Abir mentions that the Sofer family claims to have partial come from Habban where the Jews there were known for their fighting prowess. I have two letters provided by two Rabbis in Israel who say that Abir is ancient was practiced by various middle Eastern Jews. I will post them as images.--EhavEliyahu 00:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Far, far better, it's a lot easier for someone who knows the subject to rewrite things. A skim looks good will have a closer look later, Thanks --Nate1481(t/c) 09:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: P.S. Wikisource would be the place for images of the letters --Nate1481(t/c) 09:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tags 

message: This tool automatically reviews the article for areas of interest it's not far of b-class now this may help to improve it to a Good Article:
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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Nate1481(t/c) 15:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Auto review 

message: Hi EhavEliyahu, I noticed that you placed a "peer review" tag at the top of the talk page, but you didn't go through with creating the response page or listing the article at Wikipedia:Peer review. Have you simply not gotten to it yet, or would you like some assistance?  If you haven't done this before, the instructions for how to submit for peer review are right there at WP:PR. Bradford44 18:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey. I am just getting started. I am doing some moving, but I at least want to start getting the ball rolling. As I have more time I will go through the entire procedure. Thanks.--EhavEliyahu 19:50, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem, I'll stand back and let you have at it. :) Bradford44 05:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you see any other areas you think could be improved let me know. I am still trying to make things are clear as possible.--EhavEliyahu 11:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Peer review tag has been removed till a later date.Peter Rehse 02:18, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Peer review

message: I hope, you are not ashamed of the Russian and Serbian articles about this theme. Because the English article was changed from Abir to Yehoshua Sofer I didn't consider as a reason to remove the link to the Russian and Serbian article. I look this story very interesting. The German article soon arrives:) --Carski, 29. december, 2007  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.199.129 (talk) 12:58, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Russian and Serbian article

message: This Abir school was apparently founded in 2001.
It is highly instructive to read the Jerusalem Report article of April 2000.
At that time, Sofer was still happy to say he learned Asian martial arts in spite of his father, and still happy to be the only legitimate Kuk Sool Won master in Israel.
:Sofer learned his first Eastern fighting skills, at age 4, from an elderly Chinese gentleman in a Kingston parking lot.  ...  His father - who had evidently concluded that he wasn't rearing an outstanding Torah scholar - reluctantly allowed him to attend, provided he still found time for Jewish study. "On Shabbat," he says, "I had to study extra Gemarah, Mishnah and Chasidism."
Then jump to 2010, and suddenly his father, his uncles and his grandfather were martial arts gods with a family tradition reaching into the Bronze Age, and he was in fact instructed by his father to "taste" the "foreign" traditions against his will
:Like a lot of stuff I would've never done in life were it left solely up to me, I studied the foreign systems because that is what my grandfather and father required of me.
This guy is like Frank Dux. For some people, it clearly isn't enough to be a decent martial artist, they need to be a mystical grand master guarding lost secrets of the ancients. --dab (𒁳) 11:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sofer is like Madonna; he has reinvented himself and retconned his and Abir's origin stories so many times it's impossible to keep it all straight.
--dab (𒁳) 16:57, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Bullshido status

message: After prodding the article, I looked around and found at least three secondary sources that can be considered quotable.
They are journalism and superficial pop culture / mass media coverage, but they seem to establish some minimal notability. Also, the hip-hop album of 1993 seems to have been a success in Israel at the time.
I doubt that Sofer has notability beyond Israel, but the article can probably be kept on grounds of notability as both a martial artist and hip hop musician within Israel.
The bullshido angle doesn't affect this; the "ancient Hebrew warrior tradition" is of course a cock-and-bull story made up for the benefit of the media and the credulous, but what we report on is notability, not "truth". 
If there is a market for a pseudo-traditional "kosher" school of martial arts in Israel alongside the excellent but pragmatic and un-spiritual Krav Maga then this will do nicely. --dab (𒁳) 13:08, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess I still don't see notability.  A minor hip-hop hit in Israel and leader of a non-notablie (possibly made up) martial art don't show me notability.  The ability to self promote doesn't show me notability, either.  Which notability criteria in WP:MANOTE does he pass?  High ranking martial artists in notable systems have been deleted since high ranks alone have been determined to be insufficient for notability.  A couple of local color stories and an interview don't show me notability, but if you want to call him notable, fine. Papaursa (talk) 00:24, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

text: You make good points and if he's truly as well-known in Israel as you say, I'd agree with your assessment. Papaursa (talk) 00:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Notability

message: Why i can't make it a separate article as it already exists in other languages ​​? פארוק (talk) 05:43, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Abir (martial art). Meanwhile, please don't add unsourced and apparently non-notable material such as you did on Abir Judith. Dougweller (talk) 06:26, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Abir (martial art)]] 

message: I have a question about some of the information on this page that has no sources. The page states that Yehoshua Sofer's birth name was Nigel Winston but I don't see any sources that provide evidence for that being is his birth name. From what I have heard Nigel Admor was his stage name. What source that meets Wiki requirements was used to determine his birth name was Nigel Winston? Further, if no such reliable source exists shouldn't that be deleted? Thanks.212.117.136.6 (talk) 07:37, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth Name Nigel Wiston? Source?