Talk:Armenian genocide/Archive 1

message: If Hitler's quote was not a hoax, then why did the U.S. prosecutor refuse to use it in the Nuremberg trials?  This unisgned, undated page bearing the Hitler quote stuck out like a sore thumb in the otherwise flawless documentation with sequential numbering system showing dates, signatures, and minutes all in keeping with German high precision.  The fact of the matter is, the fabricator -- believed to be an Armenian nationalist or a sympathizer -- managed to slip his "work of art" among the court documents, but faile to convince the U.S. prosecutors, nor the impartial observers and scholars.  Prof. Heath Lowry researched this matter well and exposed yet another Armenian fakery tainting the "alleged" genocide debate.
Please, don't try to again change the quote to imply,that Hitler was talking about Jewish Holocaust. Without trying to disregeard enormous suffering of people tied Jewish nation or religion, or both, "Who remember the Armenians" is about killing Poles, not Jews. Just try to read the quote for God's sake.
Please, let this stay on top, since this question was disputed here dozen times.
Szopen 10:03, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Hitler's quote and Holocaust

message: This article as it is now is more like a propaganda article, rather than something that is based on facts. Varlik Vergisi is one example which has nothing to do with Armenian Genocide. It is simply an attempt to discredit the Turkish side (as if, look these guys are really bad people). Another bias emerges in the numbers. Usually, the numbers are exaggarated here and there. For example, is 1.5 million dead is really accepted? Who accepts that number, there is absolutely no clue. Also in France, it is mostly due to the Armenian lobbies that France signed a law about a historical event. Since this is a highly debated issue, it is wrong to state that everything here is a fact. Rick seem to be the main reason that leaves this article as it is. He is from California, thus probably sided with Armenian side (he accused me of being Serdar Argic and blocked me from editing claiming that I am vandalizing. Wikipedia clearly describes what vandalism is). I think Wikipedia should revoke his adminship if he continues to use his power to prevent people to bring more objectivity to these articles.
:I don't see the Varlik reference, so I guess it has been removed.  It doesn't sound like a propaganda article though, it sounds like history, and it sounds like you don't like this particular history.  Well you can rest assured that neither do Armenians - it happened to them.  Numbers?  Of course it is important to use the best available, but first of all many different sources are mentioned, including very pro-Turkish.  Second, numbers are frankly irrelevant in whether it was a genocide, something you seem to be trying to cast doubt upon.  So on that note let me just say that when the US Congress discusses Armenian Genocide bills, the pro-Turkey congressmen do NOT ever argue against it on the basis of whether it happened or not, everyone agrees it did happen.  They argue solely based on whether it is worth damaging relations with the govt. of Turkey.  In France I believe the passage was unanimous.  So really if you think that if the resolutions are only about pleasing one side of the other, you should then realize that the substance of the matter is never in doubt.  --RaffiKojian 02:29, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strong bias 

message: I have some doubts about the date I quoted (September 22nd, 1915) since  gives dates inconsistent with this. Also, I am not sure about the number of ships involved in the rescue and transfer of Armenians from Musa Mountain to Port Said.  says there were five ships, but the reference I put into the article says two. I think five is a better number as the same article mentions five thousand people. Is there something like the memoirs of the captains of the ships? There must be a log book at least! Unfortunately I cannot read French. ato 18:22, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there was the mentioning the quote previously. I don't know why it was removed. The full quote was something like "Exterminate all woman, men, and children of POLISH descent... Who, after all, remember the Armenians"? Note that the quote is about the fate of Poles. What suprises me, the quote was removed almost immedietely when i corrected original erroneus statement that it was about Jews (which it wasn;t) Szopen 08:47, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Events of Musa Mountain 

message: 1) The "Definition of Armenian Genocide" article's neutrality earns a plus by taking the 50,000 Armenian mortality figure during the mid-1890s, instead of the more commonly accepted and Armenian provided 200,000 to 300,000 figures. 
The counterpoint, from Kamuran Gurun's excellently researched "The Armenian File," using mostly western sources: "...Even if we are to include the Armenians killed by the bullets of the Armenian rebels as having been killed by Turks, the number of Armenians who died during the rebellions in the 1890s will hardly reach 20,000." 
"There is a great difference between 20,000 and 300,000...it would be fair... to remember how many people lost their lives in rebellions or disorders in their own or other countries, and think how much right they have to use the term massacre."
Gurun estimates the number of Muslim dead during these rebellions in a two-year period is not less than 5,000. (Most were killed without provocation, so that the rest would be aroused to attack the Armenians.) "This is the real murder, the real massacre."
One main reason for this conclusion is because unlike what the article provides as the reasons ("harassment by the Kurds and an increase in taxes"), what really lay at the bottom of these activities was that Armenian revolutionary committees had begun forming in 1878. This is a critical development often neglected in this politicized discussion. The aim of the Dashnaks, Hunchaks and others was to massacre Turks, hoping to invite counter-massacres, and thus pleading to sympathetic imperialist powers to intervene... powers that were looking for any excuse by this time to meddle in the affairs of "The Sick Man of Europe."
2) In the "Second Armenian Massacre" section, we are told "Most of the Armenian recruits were later turned into road laborers and executed." No doubt crimes were committed against some of these soldiers, but there is no proof to verify this claim as occurring against "most." The fact of the matter is, the charters of the revolutionary groups (as recorded by Louise Nalbandian in her book, for one) specified revolt to take place against their homeland when the country was at its weakest: while at war. To the letter, this policy was followed; five days after Russia declared war (that is, on November 7, 1914), the pro-Armenian newspaper The New York Times reported "ARMENIANS FIGHTING TURKS -- Besieging Van; Others operating in Turkish Army's Rear." 
"The (Turkish) Armenians everywhere welcomed the Russians... reports of armed conflicts arising from the refusal of Armenians to become Turkish conscripts and to surrender their arms. It is now rumored that the important city of Van is today besieged by Armenian guerrilla bands in great force. In Feltun the number of insurgents is said to exceed 20,000 and they are reported to have defeated all the Turkish troops sent against them, causing heavy losses to the Turks."
This was in late 1914, half a year before the "April 24" order to resettle the Armenians was issued, one that wasn't carried out until the following month. Another major Armenian rebellion took place in early April, triggering the issuance of this order.
The New York Times (often following war propaganda reports blindly... Wellington House illegally had a branch operating out of U.S. soil... today its articles are used as "proof" for the genocide) is not the only source that tells us Ottoman-Armenian troops behaved traitorously, many having deserted. What nation would not have disarmed troops that shared the same ethnicity of those who betrayed their country?
What we see here is the one and only reason why there was a relocation program: the Armenians rebelled at an agonizing "life or death" moment of their country, where they had been regarded as the "faithful nation" for centuries, allowed to rise in the highest ranks of society and government... thanks to the instigation of their fanatical leaders, following a period of terrorism that lasted some 35 years. There is no nation on the planet that would not have moved a dangerous population out of the way, given such dire circumstances... fighting a war on multiple fronts against world superpowers. The bankrupt nation did not have the manpower and resources to adequately handle such a huge task of transporting hundreds of thousands, and thus the innocent suffered with the guilty. This is a far cry from a planned extermination policy.
While fortunately Wikipedia's article examines various sources in its "statistics" section, the following statement is irresponsible: "Several hundred thousands more were massacred by Kurdish militia and Ottoman army, giving an estimated total of 1,500,000 Armenians dead."
We don't know if "Several hundred thousands more were massacred," especially by government agents. Massacres were perpetrated mainly by revengeful or opportunistic clans, and most Armenians who died did so from famine, disease, harsh weather and combat. Richard Hovannisian, for example, estimated some 150,000 Armenians died accompanying the Russian retreats (in his 1967 book); thousands died similarly accompanying the French at Marash. On the other side of the coin is the massive number of Turks dying under the same conditions; anti-Turkish Ambassador Morgenthau (in his book) figured thousands of Turks were dying daily of starvation, estimating a quarter of the empire's population was lost in this regard. (Because the men were all desperately needed at the fronts, and few were left to till the fields.) Even thousands of Turkish soldiers were dying of starvation! (According to Liman von Sanders, in the trial of Soghoman Tehlirian.)
As far as the 1,500,000 figure: Armenians from Boghos Nubar then to Peter Balakian today concede one million survived. In order for 1.5 million to have died, there would have needed to be 2.5 million Ottoman-Armenians before the war.
Yet, over a dozen western (almost always anti-Turkish) sources... including the Armenian Patriarch Ormanian... figured there were from one million to 1.6 million Armenians before the war.
3a) The "Statistics" section:
"Arnold J. Toynbee who served as an intelligence officer during World War I estimates there were 1,800,000 Armenians living in Anatolia in 1914. Arnold Toynbee's estimate is generally considered the most accurate of the ones given above. Encyclopaedia Britannica upon reviewing all available estimates took 1,750,000 Armenians living in Anatolia as their estimate."
I would rephrase "intelligence officer" to "propaganda minister"; Toynbee worked for Lord Bryce's Wellington House, whose chief purpose was to dehumanize the enemy. The British apologized to the Germans in the mid-1930s for the lies contained within their Blue Books, such as bayoneting Belgian babies.
In point of fact, before Toynbee joined Wellington House, he figured there were only around one million Ottoman-Armenians. ("Nationalism and the War," 1915.) In his notorious 1916 Blue Book report, "Treatment of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire," Toynbee took the median figure between the Ottoman census' 1,100,000 and the Armenian Patriarch's 2,100,000: 1,600,000. So I don't know where this report came up with the 1,800,000 figure. Not that it matters, as propagandists can change their facts and figures at will.
In fact, Toynbee was mistaken about the Ottoman census; a more recent census had the Armenians at 1,300,000. Ironically, even the older 1,100,000 figure was more than what Toynbee thought before he became a propagandist.
The 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica had the Ottoman and Russian Armenian figures at 1.1 million each. If they later "revised" their figure to 1,750,000, they listened to the anti-Turkish propaganda that was omnipresent in the west.
On the "Talk:Armenian Genocide" page, a reader brought up yet another source not sympathetic to the Turks, the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1907. 
("Total population 9.235-10.750 million of whom about 1.5 million were Christian.") Another reader who may not have liked these figures reminded us "populations are notoriously hard to gauge." That is true. This is why in order to get closest to the truth, we have to examine a multitude of sources. And the multitude of sources -- even among Turk-haters like Lepsius -- tell us before the war, from 1 million to 1.6 million Armenians existed in the Ottoman Empire. Only Armenian sources tell us 2 million and over.
3b) "Talat Pasha, a prominent Young Turk and Grand Vizier from 1917-1918, claimed that 800,000 Armenians died." 
Is that from http://www.cilicia.com/armo10a.html, where "Cemal" was confused for "Talat"? Many fraudulent quotes were put in the mouths of Ottoman officials, by immoral parties as Aram Andonian, who forged many documents for propaganda purposes... still unethically being passed off in propaganda sites today as factual. In point of fact, Talat Pasha estimated this figure at around 300.000, in a presentation at the last congress of the Union and Progress Party. 
I don't understand why the "Definition of Armenian Genocide" page ventured to tell us about foreign governments recognizing this episode of history as a genocide, as the one from France... where half a million Armenians live and have plenty of francs to sway politicians with. Does anyone think these politicians made an objective study of this history? And of what relevance is our being told an Armenian rock band has politicized some of their songs, unfairly influencing the ignorant minds of their young fans?
It is time to examine the other, always neglected side of this story; the intentional ethnic cleansing perpetrated by Armenians (to justify the hoped for "Greater Armenia") when they gained control of eastern lands with and without the help of the Russians. (One of the main perpetrators, General Dro, would later become known as the "Jew Hunter," working for the Fuehrer in WWII.) It is hard to find "neutral" (that is western) sources documenting the Turkish losses, because these Muslim lives (Ottoman Jews were also targeted by the Armenians) were (and are) regarded as disposable and not as valuable... but I believe over one-half million Turks/Muslims were directly slaughtered. (Out of a total of 2.5 to 3 million who died from all causes combined.) 
Some "neutral" sources include a British colonel reporting the Armenians massacred between 300,000 and 400,000 Kurdish Muslims in the Van and Bitlis districts. (12.9.1919, U.S. Archives 184.021/265). Gotchnak, an Armenian-American newspaper, May 24th, 1915 issue: "There are only 1500 Turks left in Van, the rest having been exterminated." (In the French "Yellow Book," Cuinet figured 250 000 Moslems in Van in 1892.) The Turks have registered 517,955 casualty figures. That would mean more Turks/Muslims were directly killed by Armenians than the other way around.
----
Well this is a very long post and all over the place, so I can only respond to parts of it, but here goes.  Yes, numbers are important to report as accurately as possible, but really they are not relevant on the whole to the central question you seem to want to refute - whether this was a genocide.  So I will not sit here and argue this source vs. that source since we seem to have the high/low numbers covered very well on the page, and that should be enough to satisfy all.  However your out of thin air figure the "you believe" 1.5 million Turks and Jews (yes, Jews no less, not Kurds, but Jews) out of 2.5 million lost during the war.  So the British and Russian troops were so ineffective?  Sorry, but this figure is so incredibly large, with absolutely no scholarly backing.  It is something even the biggest proponents of the Turkish Government have ever dared to claim.  Your great respect for Gurun as a valuable scholar is also misplaced.  Good scholarly books do not include judgemental quotes such as "This is the real murder, the real massacre."
The System of a Down and France recognition are certainly relevant to genocide discussion.  The post-genocide campaign of denial by Turkey has been unparallelled in the history of genocides, so far as I can think of.  The need for Armenians to remember and make sure the world remembers is a great driving force that you cannot underestimate - a direct result of an unacknowleged genocde.  Even in the oppresive Soviet Republic of Armenia, a prominent genocide monument was built, and millions commemorated the genocide.  The generation of survivors spent most of their lives rebuilding and starting new lives.  The next generation, with no acknowlegement of what their people were subjected to, and now more comfortable in their new countries expressed themselves as System of a Down is today.
Your other miscellaneous attempts to make Armenians out to be anti-Semetic based on a reference to one general who I am guessing has only been called "Jew-hunter" by you...  I have certainly never heard such a title given to him.  I would be curious to know what his supposed work for the Nazis entailed, even though that is SO irrelevant to the genocide it probably shouldn't be discussed here.  --RaffiKojian 01:44, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examining chiefly Turk-unsympathetic sources for the "Armenian Genocide" article 

message: You are mistaken. I am not looking to believe everything bad about the Armenians. I consider every claim on its own merit. Can you say the same about yourself?
This is why my jury is very much out on the Anne Frank possibility, and the reason why I added the extra-fair disclaimer, "extremely loose." Nobody in Anne Frank's family would have dared asked the background of the soldiers or Gestapo agents who carted them away. So we will never know for sure. What raised my eyebrow was a description I came across referring to these Nazis as "dark-skinned," which didn't sound typically Aryan.
If we are to examine the reverse side of the coin you raised, I wonder if you are not looking to believe everything bad about the Turks. Note this comment of yours: "Turkish paid scholars like McCarthy." The reason why neutral academicians don't dare enter this fray is because the pro-Armenians don't hesitate to focus on the messenger instead of the message, and start their age-old smear campaign tactics. Vahan Cardashian was a master at this, when the Rev. James Barton, who dutifully vilified Turks for over a generation in missionary fashion, bitterly complained to Adm. Mark Bristol that he has now been targeted with a smear campaign by the Armenian lawyer and propagandist. Peter Balakian helped spearhead a smear campaign against Heath Lowry in recent years. The sinister motive is to stifle honest academic debate.
What is your proof the Turks have been paying McCarthy? I've read in pro-Armenian literature -- the kind that too often bends the truth -- the Turks financed a chair. Whether that's true or not, Prof. McCarthy was earning a paycheck at the University of Louisville for years beforehand, and that is how he is making his money today... and that would have been the case with or without this chair. I've read he makes sure not to have any semblance of getting paid by the Turks, simply to avoid accusations like the one you put forth. But that doesn't stop people from making accusations.
To address other issues:
1) "The Armenian File" is "an absolutely atrocious hack job," you wrote. I heartily disagree. It's an impressive work that makes its case mainly derived from western sources, which are primarily anti-Turkish. Is "if the Armenians had remained loyal the Turks wouldn't have had to kill them all" a direct quote from the book? The word "all" makes me think you might have paraphrased, because far from "all" the Armenians were killed. As far as the core truth behind that statement, the Armenians were faithful for centuries. You had better believe the Armenians would not have experienced their hardship had they not fired the first shot and betrayed their country, in their country's darkest hour. Check out what happened (or didn't happen) to the loyal Ottoman Jews, if you don't believe me.
2) When I wrote "Armenians who allied themselves with the enemy," that does not mean all Armenians betrayed their country. Of course, there were many who were enjoying prosperous lives, and wished their crazy leaders hadn't muddied the waters. Unfortunately, even those who did not willingly comply were coerced. Targets of Armenians terrorism were not only Turks. For example, remarkably, in the three year period of 1904-06, two out of three victims of Armenian terrorism were fellow Armenians.
3) I don't know why Armenians preferred to take their chances with Russian rule, as you suggested I ask myself why. Since Peter the Great, Russians have always used the Armenians as pawns, breaking all of their promises. I got a picture of Armenian life under Russian rule in "Men are Like That" (1926), and it sounds pretty disgusting. The average Ottoman-Armenian enjoyed a much better quality life, being among the upper, wealthier classes. I guess the "Christian" connection had a part to play with some Armenians' zeal, but mostly their fanatical leaders saw a chance to form their own state (encouraged by what was happening in the Balkans), and they needed a European power to help them on their way. (Little realizing the Russians would absorb them at the first opportunity. No wonder William Saroyan wrote the real enemy of the Armenians was not the Turks, but the Russians... in "Antranik of Armenia.")
4) Photographs? Plenty of Armenian sites show photographs, the origin of which are suspicious. Even the rare "legitimate" photos, as Armin Wegner's, show mostly suffering people with a few corpses... and that's not genocidal proof. The entire Ottoman Empire was a catastrophe area... with "thousands of Turks dying daily," as Morgenthau reported.
Memoirs? Missionary stories don't count. In their prayers, they believed it was their godly duty to demonize the Turk. Most of these bigoted westerners only listened to the Armenians, for whom they felt a great sympathy, and they rarely (if ever) witnessed any atrocity firsthand. (And singular atrocities, even if witnessed, don't prove systematic government sponsorhip. Unless you believe the My Lai Massacre demonstrated American intentions to wipe out every single Vietnamese.) 
Hearsay does not constitute as evidence. That goes double for much of Armenian "oral history," where it's common to hear they were "told" of what happened. (For if they witnessed events firsthand, how could they have survived? The entire idea of genocide was to kill them all off.)
And George Schreiner did not base his opinion on the one example cited. He was all over the empire in most of 1915. "This is not the kind of evidence you should be proudly posting"?? It is extremely valuable evidence from a western eyewitness who truly eyewitnessed, coming from the rare honorable man who kept his bigotry in check.
5) I agree; "avalanche" is an appropriate word for all the "evidence" presented. Unfortunately, hearsay and fabrications... as, for example, all of those New York Times articles, the gobbledygook made up by foreign consuls motivated by religious and racial prejudice (and spurred by those as Morgenthau who had a propagandistic agenda, hoping to get the USA into the war), along with all the war propaganda created by Lord Bryce and Arnold Toynbee's Wellington House... does not constitute actual evidence. Maybe that's why Richard Hovannisian said what he said, in a rare fit of honesty... that the genocide cannot be proven.
The Nuremberg of WWI should make anyone stop and wonder. The Malta Tribunal lasted from 1919-1921. For over two years, the British -- anxious to justify their hysterical propaganda from the war years -- attempted to find actual judicial evidence for this so-called genocide. Despite appointing an Armenian to head the Ottoman archives in Allied-occupied Istanbul, and despite having that whole "avalanche" of evidence at their disposal... every single one of the initially held 144 Turks was released.
So when you make damning statements like, "the facts are there. This history is not being made up. The Ottoman Turkish government planned and executed genocide," what makes you think you can find the actual evidence that even the British could not? What are these facts? (What you need is the kind of proof Aram Andonian offered, making Talat Pasha say something to the tune of "every Armenian man, woman and child needs to be exterminated." Unfortunately for you, such proof needs to be genuine.) And don't think I haven't read Dadrian, who mainly resorts to the 1919 Ottoman kangaroo courts as his evidence. Dadrian is a prosecutor, not a professor; he only selects damning claims, to further his unscholarly mission. 
6) Lastly, I'm already aware of the International Center for Transitional Justice report. That body was manned by lawyers, not historians, who almost exclusively referred to the omnipresent pro-Armenian references. Their definition of genocide: only ONE person needs to be killed. In that context, yes, the Armenian tragedy can definitely be called a "genocide." But so can the murders in the O.J. Simpson affair, as well as just about any other conflict where a fatality is involved.
.
----
Wow - again I just don't know what the point is of writing to someone who says they are not looking to believe everything bad about Armenians, then says he suspects the Nazis who arrested Ann Frank were Armenian because they were described as "dark skinned".  
Please don't make me laugh with consipiracy theories.  I am telling you, I know this subject VERY well.  McCarthy has gotten grants from both the "Turkish Studies Institute", in Washington D.C., whose honorary chairman is the Turkish Ambassador to the U.S., and from American Research Institute in Turkey.  Both funded by Rep of Turkey.  Heath Lowry's (who recieved a couple of grants from the latter) embarrasing closeness to the Turkish government, including penning letters for the Turkish Ambassador is well documented online at: http://users.ids.net/~gregan/pac.html  I suggest you read every page in there, including the parts where the Turkish Ambassador and Heath Lowry freely discuss the Armenian Genocide as just that.  Not as "alleged".
For your other points:
1) I have nothing to add.  "The Armenian File" is "an absolutely atrocious hack job," and no scholar would ever put it in their footnotes.  Whoever can appreciate that book wants to believe any evil rumor about Armenians possible.  That seems to be your thing though.  And if you want to know why Armenians were especially targetted, read up on Pan-Turkism, and think about what some Turkish generals were fighting for in Central Asia after WWI.
2) Oh, so there were still good, obedient Armenians.  Yes, yes, too bad they were deported/murdered too, huh?  And too bad none of them were allowed to reclaim their homes or move back by Ataturk.  Oh well, huh?
3) Oh brother.  No comment needed.
4) Alright, then the complete absense of Armenians in Anatolia and the stories of all of the survivors will just have to be my proof.  Have you read Survivors by Miller?  You ought to.  If you claim that nobody's words are relevant because they were either biased or should have been dead, then you have no business reading ANY history.  It's all peoples words.
5) Yes, it is unfortunate that the Ottomans were not as good a record keepers as the Nazis, and too bad the Republic of Turkey kept the Ottoman Archive closed for 60 years of "sanitizing" and still do not allow free access.  Convenient too, eh?  What was being hidden in there do you think?
6) Thank you for admitting it was a genocide by the "definition" of genocide.  I like to stick to the definition, personally.  If you read carefully it was the intent of the murders that are important, and the intent they say, was elimination of the Armenians of Anatolia.
Anyway, I don't see really where you want to go with this discussion, or the point.  So I am finished with this conversation.
--RaffiKojian 04:08, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Continuing our Discussion 

message: I have removed that reference because it is used only for Musa Mountain events which are not in the article any more. Please do not introduce it. Also, please do not change the titles of links to give impression that Wikipedia endorses Armenian point of view. If you want you can write neutral titles like "Sources that support one point of view" and "Sources that support other point of view" and let readers discover what opposing PoVs defend, rather than stamping them one way or other. at0 20:11, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Reference and link titles

message: Raffi, I don't know if you're being fair with the Anne Frank point. 1) Armenian-Nazis were used to round up the Jews 2) "dark-skinned" was a description for at least some of the captors of Anne Frank's family 3) It's the rare German who would be placed in that category, except in those old Italian-produced WWII movies. The possibility of these Nazis being Armenians is valid speculation. And that's what "extremely loose indication" means: speculation.
I can see you "know this subject VERY well," but you are only knowledgeable about this subject subjectively; you only listen to Armenian sources, and your aim is to discredit anything that does not support your exclusive point-of-view.
Dr. Leon Picon once wrote: "The (Armenian) mythology that has been developed around the events of 1915 has been repeated so often that large segments of even educated people have come to to accept the mythology as History." 
This is what we are dealing with. The "avalanche" of your Armenian evidence has been so near-unilaterally presented in the west, it has become the commonly accepted wisdom. Once a lot of people also believed the earth was flat. Let's not look at the quantity of the evidence, but its quality. Sources without conflicts of interest earn the most points.
Armenians are so obsessed with this "genocide," they support the curricula of many western schools and universities (Let's focus on America's). The multitude of Armenian studies are financed by Armenians, whereas non-obsessed Turks twiddle their thumbs. The way to balance this overly lopsided scale is for someone to step up to the financial plate to create Turkish studies, and the only institution with the monetary muscle to do so becomes the Turkish government. This invites charges of corruption (as with the page you offered), since the "avalanche" of propaganda has done its dirty work all too well through the years. 
It is common practice for professors to get grants from various sources, and if Prof. McCarthy received grants from the two Turkish institutions you mentioned, your conclusion that McCarthy has become a paid propaganda tool is absurd and defamatory. If McCarthy is getting his salary from the American University of Louisville, he doesn't need grants to compromise his integrity.
By your standards, Richard Hovannisian's Armenian Educational Foundation (AEF) Chair in Armenian History at UCLA (since 1986) and his belonging to the Academic Council of ANI that openly declares its historical partisanship are better indications of playing propagandist. And Vahakn Dadrian's having drawn his salary from the Zoryan Institute far from indicates Dadrian's being on the level as an objective scholar.
It's the quality of the research we should be considering, not the source of financing. Trying to defame professors like Justin McCarthy and Heath Lowry (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/lowry.htm offers the other side of your coin) is yet another example of the time-honored Armenian smear campaign tactic.
1) We got your opinion that "The Armenian File" is "an absolutely atrocious hack job," while I believe the book was thoroughly researched, offering a slew of original sources that were unknown at the time of its release (belying the definition of "hack," which means lacking talent or ability); so let's allow the reader to decide. Here is an online version: http://www.eraren.org/eng/armfile.htm
Pan-Turkism is just another phony theory concocted to provide a motive as to why there was a "genocide." It makes no sense, as if the idea was to get rid of the non-Turkic races in the greatly heterogeneous empire, why would the others have been untouched? I already gave the Jews as an example, but the Arabs may be a more fitting one. They, too, traitorously rebelled, like the Armenians; yet I don't know of an Ottoman extermination plan against the Arabs. 
2) Boghos Nubar stated that 280,000 Armenians remained in the Ottoman Empire after the war (and some 700,000 emigrated elsewhere). A good portion of the Armenians who were relocated to Arab lands (Morgenthau and Toynbee both on record for 500,000 being alive by 1916) remained. The USA had an open door policy for the people there was such great sympathy toward, and the bulk of Ottoman-Armenians chose these greener pastures. And for one who professes to know this subject "VERY" well, I guess you haven't read the Treaty of Gumru between Armenia and Turkey, where Ataturk did allow Armenians to return to their homes for a limited time after the treaty's signing.
3) The Russians, the great friend of the Armenians, were not as generous... according to Dennis Papazian's "What Every Armenian Should Know": "Russia even forbade Armenian refugees, who had managed to flee the Genocide, from returning to their lands, which the Russian armies had overr(u)n during the war." Brother!
4) As far as "the complete absence of Armenians in Anatolia," refer to (2). The aim of Armenian propaganda is to make it seem the Armenians were all "murdered," when in fact the bulk survived. Let's keep in mind that many of the Armenians travelled to "Greater Armenia" and "Cicilia" when Armenians held the top cards (with the help of the Russians and the French, respectively). Once the Turks regained their strength, many Armenians ran away for fear of repercussions for their treachery. 
5) Ah, the standard charge proclaiming the Turks "purged" their evidence from the Ottoman archives. However, in preparation for the "Nuremberg" of WWI, the Malta Tribunal... where your genocide simply could not be proven, even by the British... as soon as the ink was dry on the armistice signed on October 30, 1918, the Allies occupied Istanbul -- and the British High Commission immediately confiscated all the official documents, including the Ottoman State archives; an Armenian (Haigazn K. Khazarian) was appointed its head, and for all the time until 1921, not a single incriminating shred of evidence could be found. This was all before the Turks had a chance to perform their "sanitizing." (And you are wrong: the archives are open to all but the handful who proved themselves to abuse the system, as reportedly with the cases of Hilmar Kaiser and Ara Sarafian.)
6) The main reason why the decision by the non-historians of the ICTJ is meaningless boils down to their definition of genocide... where only one person needs to be killed; such does not conform to most people's definition. "Intent" is what is necessary to prove, and that is exactly what the pro-Armenians lack. Even one of the many hypocritical genocide scholars, Henry R. Huttenbach, has proclaimed: "There is no crime without evidence. A genocide cannot be written about in the absence of factual proof." 
Since you write you have "finished," thank you for your participation in this discussion.
 
,
:And thank you, too Mr/Ms. Anonymous.  You do as good a job discrediting yourself as I can.  And as for "Armenians are so obsessed with this "genocide,", I dare you to switch Armenian with Jewish and put that message on the Jewish Holocaust page.  It is apparently normal to "obsess" after a genocide. --RaffiKojian 14:12, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Raffi Responding Roughly? 

message: Ladies and gentleman, the response you see above is common when Armenians get exasperated. What do we have? A reference to my anonymity, as if revealing my name, address and social security number would make my message any less or more valid. Shooting the messenger when the message can't be dealt with is the time-honored response... this is why Armenians excel in the art of the smear campaign. And when traditionally pro-Armenian sources are given that can't be argued with... that is,  sources that turn the mythical genocide on its ear, what do we get? "You do as good a job discrediting yourself as I can." In other words: "liar, liar, pants on fire."
Nobody is saying the Armenians did not suffer. Some were treated most atrociously. The whole point is whether the Armenians were targeted for extermination as a whole (and it would have to be as a whole, since the main phony motive provided is that the Turks were following a policy of pan-Turkism/Turanism, that is, trying to do away with all non-Turkish elements) by the Ottoman government. However, "intent" needs to be proven, and that's what the Armenians have never been able to come up... genuine proof. Certainly, Vahakn Dadrian and associates have done a marvelous job contributing to the "avalanche" of "evidence," including opinions of individual Turks and Germans... but this does not translate to actual evidence. Many people could be saying Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, but opinions do not count. What is required is real, hard proof.
What happened is that the Armenians rebelled. They posed a serious threat behind-the-lines to the desperate Ottoman army, fighting against superpowers on multiple fronts. The life and death situation required the Armenians be moved out of the way, something the Americans did with their Japanese during WWII (for much less justifiable reasons, as Japanese-Americans were not disloyal and the United States of America was not in immediate danger)... something that any country would have done. Yes, the innocent Armenians suffered along with the guilty, as the "Sick Man" was in no shape to carry on such a colossal task adequately. (Although the bankrupt government set aside today's equivalent of millions of dollars to finance the operation, money that could have been used elsewhere in their extremely desperate situation. Murdering on or near the spot, as Armenians did with the Turks, would have been a much cheaper alternative... if murder was the real idea.) However, such are the ugly consequences of war. 
Armenians need to be "man" enough to blame the real parties for their disaster: their fanatical leaders, and the Allies who used the Armenians as their pawns. If there was no Armenian uprising, none of this would have taken place.
It is immoral to be pointing fingers and accusing others of committing high crimes if there simply is no legitimate proof.
Among other reasons, there is no "intent" because:
1) 200,000 Armenians were exempt from the relocation policy in the west. In addition, the law provided for other Armenians to be exempt, including Catholics and Protestants, the disabled, soldiers and their families, and certain workers. (These rules weren't always followed to a tee, thanks to Ottoman corruption and incompetence, but they prove the government's heart was in the right place.) If the relocation was a guise to kill off the Armenians, there is no conceivable reason for any Armenian to have been exempted. Since Raffi helpfully suggested we think of the role of "Jews" for "Armenians," let's do so for a better reason: Hitler did not exempt any Jews.
2) Never mind the nearly 1,400 who were found guilty at the 1919 Ottoman kangaroo courts, anxious to punish members of the former administration. Some Turks who committed crimes against Armenians were punished DURING the war, at times to the point of execution. Hitler did not punish any SS man for harming the Jews.
3) The British were desperate to convict the Turks held at the Malta Tribunal, the "Nuremberg" of WWI. For one thing, the British desired to give credence to their propaganda hokum partly intended to justify the Ottoman land grab scheme of the Allies, set up through secret treaties... laid out by the King-Craine Commission. The tribunal process lasted nearly two-and-a-half-years, and the British searched under every rock, even the archives of the United States, in order to find REAL evidence. Every single Turk had to be released at the end. (In line with typically deceptive Armenian strategy, you will encounter the pro-Armenian smoke and mirrors for this chapter: it was all about British POWs. However, all one needs to do is read the British archives; their main concern was the Armenian massacres.)
4) How could there have been so many Armenian survivors... one million, according to the Armenians, out of a pre-war population of from 1 to 1.6 million... if the idea was to get rid of them? Yes famine and disease claimed many of the relocated, just as thousands of Turks were dying daily from the same causes, according to the racist Ambassador Morgenthau. The same Morgenthau revealed in his private diary (but not his propagandistic book) that 500,000 resettled Armenians were doing well, and getting on with the business of their lives. If these Armenians were in the hands of the Turks, and the idea was to exterminate them, not one Armenian would have survived.
5) Even Arnold Toynbee -- master propagandist against the Turks during the war years -- later wrote (after he paid attention to the other side of the story, mostly salvaging his reputation as historian): "The Ottoman institution came perhaps as near as anything in real life could to realizing the ideal of Plato's Republic." I'd doubt the idea of extermination would have had any place in Plato's Republic.
As Raffi told us, there is an "avalanche" of "evidence" for the Armenian genocide, almost all presented by parties with conflicts-of-interest.... like missionaries, war propaganda offices, prejudiced newspapers that mindlessly printed their claims, religious and racist bigots like western consuls (including those from the Central Powers, the Germans and Austrians, who also grew up with tales of the Terrible Turk), and the Armenians themselves. This is why those in my position have to constantly defend. After debunking one of the countless claims, there is always another to take its place. 
But if we are people of honor, it is time to see what is going on here. The Muslim Turks have a stain through centuries of prejudice in the west, and those like the Armenians have been exploiting this disadvantage to a tee. Thus the Turks are presented as the barbarians, and the Armenians are the persecuted innocents. The west likes these roles, as they have been conditioned for so long to believe them. (Check out the other definition of "Turk" in English dictionaries.)
However, as "The Jewish Times" wrote in June 21, 1990: "An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic." 
The Dashnaks were driven by their bloodlust to do away with non-Armenians (Muslims and Jews) when they heartlessly slaughtered all those they could get their hands on to "purify" their "Greater Armenia," Turkish lands they were briefly in control of. (In Armenia proper today, never mind the Muslims -- how many Jews are left?)
This is why we even have Armenians on record, confessing to their strategies. Those such as Sahak Melkonian, who wrote in "Preserving the Armenian Purity" (1920): "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul."
It is time to consider this much neglected side of the story; the over 500,000 Turks/Muslims the Armenians did away with. Did so many people lose their lives because of coincidence, or was there a Dashnak-directed policy to clean them all out? In other words, was there "intent" on the part of the Armenians? 
Why don't the genocide scholars... the modern day counterparts of the dishonest missionaries, duty-bound to vilify the infidel Turks... ever explore what the Armenians have done? Is it because deep-pocketed Armenians help to finance their institutions, riding the coattails of Holocaust sympathy? And as Raffi implied regarding the obsession factor for some Jews, could it be because some of these so-called scholars are so Holocaust obsessed, they irrationally fear devaluing the established "Armenian Genocide" could somehow harm belief in the very proven Holocaust?
Ottoman bureaucrats documented the crimes committed by Armenians. Are they lies? By WWI, the Turks had given up on the west giving the Turks a fair shake. So papers as these that were prepared were to be used among the Turks only... they were not prepared with an eye to fool future historians. 
The deadly details may be read at http://www.turkses.com/issues/ermeni/documents_of_the_massacres_by_armenians.htm. Let's reproduce #31 ("Massacre perpetrated by retreating Russian and Armenian forces"):
While retreating before the advance of the Ottoman army, Armenian bandits, first of all general Antranik’s bandits had attacked the villages of Bedrevans, Kalender, İslâmsor, Ahalik-i Ulya, Hoşu, Zanzak, Sıçankala, Ağviran, Zivin, Menevürt, Zars, Gerek and Azab and killed or captured 10.000 persons; those taken prisoners had been either killed or unheard of; the murdered prisoners were first crowded into houses and stables, in rivers' bed and shot and bayoneted, then cut into pieces; some of them were drenched with gasoline and set fire on; children's ears and noses cut off, some nailed down in their chests and bayoneted or had the throats slit; women tortured and their breasts amputated only few people had narrowly escaped death and saved their honors. 
The Armenian bandits had pillaged the entire goods, chattels and provisions of the said villages looting and destroying and burning thousands of houses, shops and mosques, robbing and taking away hundred thousands of oxes, calves, cows, buffalos, horses, mares, donkeys, lambs, goats and provisions of hundred thousands bushels of wheat and barley; money by ten thousands, thousands of gold coins, women's jewelries, hundreds of mattresses, honeycombs, copper wares; seventy carpets had been also stolen from the mosque of the town of Ağviran. 22 L. 1337 (21. VII. 1919) 
The above is only one small chapter documenting the crimes of the Armenians. Old habits die hard; the western media reported similar brutalities some twelve years ago, when Armenians chased away around one million Azeris from their homes. Interesting parallel, is it not, when the world doesn't even care about the Karabakh episode? That's what happens when the victims are disposable Turkic folk.
----
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/ (Armenian National Institute) 
http://www.cilicia.com/armo10.html (various materials at cilicia.com)
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/ (educational resources and genocide research) 
http://www.theforgotten.org/ (multimedia resources, survivor accounts) 
http://www.hyeetch.nareg.com.au/genocide/ (detailed description of events and background) 
http://www.genocide1915.info/ 
http://www.armenocide.am/ (Armenian Genocide Institute-Museum) 
http://users.ids.net/~gregan/pac.html (Details of Turkish Government activities in genocide denial which raised ethical concerns) 
http://imia.cc.duth.gr/turkey/index.e.html (Resources about Turkish war crimes in the 20th century, warning of possible bias)
I am not going to sit and recap what is a well known and false Turkish Government line.  Just read the resources above.  You wouldn't sit and write a multi-page defense of my one line if you weren't hiding the truth, but the fact that you either know you discredit yourself, or suspect you do has inspired your anonymousness to response as such.  --RaffiKojian 02:18, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let us recap the foregoing discussion 

message: Well, I suppose Raffi was "finished" in another sense; he could not counter the evidence provided by his own traditional sources that demonstrates how concocted this "genocide" really is, and in desperation, he offers a sampling of the countless hatefully propagandistic sites that have little or no bearing on historic truth. In other words, the "avalanche" of these sites is so overwhelming, as much as the Wikipedia article... for example... attempts to maintain a neutral tone, it can't help but wind up with a pro-Armenian slant. This nonsense is everywhere, and everyone has come to believe in its truth. 
It is really sad that those like Raffi are so ingrained in this topic they seem totally incapable of weighing the evidence objectively. It's "my people, right or wrong," all the way. We have brought up enough facts and figures for the moment; I'd like to now touch on the psychology that enables this kind of outlook. Why can't Armenians be "MAN" enough to accept responsibility for what happened in this religiously held, century-old account of history? Perhaps Hovhannes Katchaznouni, Armenia's first Prime Minister, said it best in 1923:
"[One of the main aspects of Armenian] "national psychology... [is] to seek external causes for [Armenian ] misfortune."
In their perception of themselves as eternal victims, it's always: Blame the other guy. Why can't they do the right thing?
I'd like to offer revealing insight to help us understand this mentality, by referring to Sir Mark Sykes' "The Caliph’s Last Heritage," London, 1915 (This British gentleman would do his patriotic duty when Wellington House -- his country's WWI propaganda division -- recruited him to come up with an image-tarnishing report against the enemy, "The Clean-fighting Turk, a Spurious Claim."): 
"The Armenians will willingly harbor revolutionaries, arrange for their entertainment and the furthering of their ends. The pride of race brings about many singularities and prompts the Armenians to prey on missionaries, Jesuits, consuls and European traveler with rapacity and ingratitude. The poor Armenians will demand assistance in a loud tone, yet will seldom give thanks for a donation. Abuse of Consular officers and missionaries is only a part of the stock-in-trade of the extra-Armenian press." 
"That the Armenians are doomed to be forever unhappy as a nation, seems to me unavoidable, for one-half of their miseries arises not from the stupid, rangy, ill-managed despotism under which they live, but from their own dealings with each other. In a time of famine at Van, Armenian merchants tried to corner the valuable grain; the Armenian Revolutionaries prefer to plunder their coreligionists to giving battle to their enemies; the anarchists of Constantinople threw bombs with the intention of provoking a massacre of their fellow countrymen. The Armenian villagers are divided against themselves; the revolutionary societies are leagued against one another, the priests connive at the murder of a bishop; the church is divided at its very foundation." 
"Never were a people so fully prepared for the hand of a tyrant; never were a people so easy to be preyed upon by revolutionary societies; never was there a people so difficult to lead or to reform. That these characteristics are the result of Muslim oppression I do not for one moment believe."
----
I am finished, thanks :-) --RaffiKojian 02:54, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Raffi, I thought you were "finished"! 

message: Hello, I am a German newbie trying to improve the German wiki article about the armenian genocide subject. Maybe you can help me. In the article under "Later assessments" there is written something very interesting: "Recently Sweden has changed its official position quoting the historical accuracy, and currently does not recognize Armenian genocide." I tried my best to find further information about that but was unsuccessfull. Maybe you can give me a link to that? TIA Nitec 11:30, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I disagree. I found the article very good and very neutral. Greetings from Germany. Nitec 08:47, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need Link 

message: Over a month ago, I put in the following in a box to dissuade fanatical partisans from coming in and making wholesale changes, as has taken place several times:
"This page is the result of careful cultivation by all parties. Wikipedia requires for contributors to use a neutral point of view, and to cite your sources so others can check and extend your work. Any major disagreements should first be resolved in the talk page."
Now this has been removed and replaced with "The factual accuracy of this article is disputed."
I asked the one I believe made this change (69.158.32.127) to go over the "disputes" on our talk page. So far, not a peep. 
I'm considering putting back my original box. Is there reason to not do so? In the history page of the article, I noticed the following argument:
"It is surely a result of 'careful cultivation' but definitely not 'by all parties' as alleged. Label 'Disputed' should be retained."
I invite anyone who believes this article has been altered unfairly by myself (or others who think this genocide story is based on myth) to check the "history" section of this page. You will see that while the article (mostly preserved) had a pro-Armenian propagandistic slant before I came in, it was fairly balanced, and the page was truly a result of 'careful cultivation' 'by all parties.'
Because this genocide myth is based on faith instead of reality, I'm aware of the faithful's feathers being ruffled. This is why whenever I've countered the pro-genocide claims, I have used only pro-genocide sources or inarguable common sense. Those who can't stand their belief systems to be challenged should not simply cry "Disputed!" Tell us why these Turk-unfriendly sources would have lied, or have been in error. 
Let me take this occasion to offer my own disputes. I've already provided one above, regarding the statement, "In desperate attempts at survival, upon hearing of massacres of nearby villages, Armenians in Musa Dagh and Van organized their self defense." (In the "The Armenian Genocide" section.)
(Notice I haven't touched this, or ANY of the pro-genocide claims the article had. I've only added rebuttals. This is what we call striving for a neutral point of view, as Wikipedia requires.) 
Now we know from the New York Times article from November 1914 the Armenians were ready to rebel the moment their nation went to war ("ARMENIANS FIGHTING TURKS -- Besieging Van — Others operating in Turkish Army's Rear"), following the Hunchak program instructions ("The most opportune time to institute the general rebellion for carrying out the immediate objectives was when Turkey was engaged in war"; Louise Nalbandian, "Armenian Revolutionary Movement," 1963) ... along with other sources. Armenians rebelled several times at Van in early 1915, and the one that precipitated the relocation orders occurred in April of that year. And anyone who uses Franz Werfel's "The Forty Days of Musa Dagh" as a historical source has another thing coming. 
For another viewpoint, Rabbi Albert Amateau, who was in the Ottoman Empire and who had the confidence of young Armenians (thinking he was a Frenchman and fellow Christian), and also a personal friend of Franz Werfel, wrote in a sworn testimony: "Moussa Dagh... if the truth be known, is the best evidence of the Armenian duplicity and rebellion. Fifty thousand Armenians, all armed, ascended the summit of that mountain after provisioning it to stand siege. Daily sallies from that summit of armed bands attacked the rear of the Ottoman armies, and disappeared into the mountain. When the Ottomans finally discovered the fortification the Armenians had prepared, they could not assault and invade it. It stood siege for 40 days, which is a good indication of the preparations the Armenians had made surreptitiously under the very nose of the Ottoman Government. Nor was it ever explained that the rebellion of the Armenians had been fostered, organized, financed, and supplied with arms and munitions by the Russians."
Neither Van nor Musa Dagh are examples of "self defense." 
Dispute #2: Under "First Armenian Massacres," we have the statement, "Mobs mostly of Muslim Turks are then alleged by some to have killed 50,000 Armenians." (In the aftermath of the 1896 Ottoman Bank takeover.)
The saving grace is the word "alleged," but this statement relies on the vicious propaganda of the period. It's revolting that such poppycock is still allowed to pass for fact, in light of the mind-numbing destruction these terrorists (led by Garo, who took part in the ethnic cleansing of innocents during the war) accomplished, with their deadly rain of bullets and 200 bombs that they flung indiscriminately at the crowds below. 
Prof. Erich Feigl, "The Myth of Terror": "...it was now possible to dream up tales of '4000-6000 Armenians killed in the rioting'. Not the least bit of evidence could be found to support these figures in the secret report of the British Embassy (F. 0. 424/188, Nos. 149 and 169). But what difference did that make?"
What difference did that make. Exactly. The European powers and Armenian propaganda sources of the period had only one purpose in mind: to make the Turks into devils.
(And how did we get from 4000-6000 Armenians to the 50,000 Armenians in our article?)
True believers: Now is your chance to prove your story. Where did you get this 50,000 Armenians story from? 
If you can't prove it, somebody march in there, and change this ridiculous assertion. Here is the real truth, according to British author C. F. Dixon-Johnson (whose country was at war and who had no reason to lie), from his 1916 work, The Armenians:
"A cry went through the city that the Armenians had risen in revolt and were massacring the other citizens. Many persons armed themselves with cudgels and, joined by a cosmopolitan mob from Pera and Galata, many of whom were Greek anxious to pay off old scores on their hated commercial rivals, wreaked vengeance on the Armenian population. The soldiers and police took no part in the killing. It is estimated that about 1,000 persons perished, including those killed by the bombs and revolvers of the conspirators. What happened in London and Liverpool after the sinking of the Lusitania affords an idea of how the East End people of London, who claim to be far more highly educated... would have behaved if German desperadoes, after murdering twelve of the sentinels on guard at the Bank of England, had been allowed to escape free in deference to the representations of the American and Spanish Ambassadors, especially after the fears and passions of the mob had been aroused by German aliens shooting and bombing from the roofs of the houses..."
I have one more "Dispute." In the links section, someone had the poor taste to include the hate site, http://imia.cc.duth.gr/turkey/index.e.html. A fair minded individual (from the history section of the page, a few days ago, Feb. 3) changed from the original description: "(...warning of extreme bias, false information and over-exaggerated numbers)." 
This is a disgusting site originating from Greece, lost in an orgy of making the Turks out to be monsters. From their Armenian Genocide page, we have words sure to warm the hearts of the faitful whose feathers are being ruffled here: "One can sunmarise the genocide of the Armenian nation by giving the figure of 300.000 dead during the reign of Sultan Abdul Hamid and 1.500.000 killed during World War I."
Now that (and the rest) is exactly "extreme bias, false information and over-exaggerated numbers."
Yet Malcolm Farmer stealthily changed this back to "possible bias." Malcolm Farmer: if you're listening, defend your partisan stance. Support the above wildly exaggerated figures, and why you feel this hateful site should be taken so seriously.
This is the problem, ladies and gentlemen. We have very prejudiced people in this world. I hope those who are following this page will let truth and fairness be their guide, and not allow the prejudiced to have their way. Especially since these prejudiced have had their way for so long, allowing for these prejudiced views to be accepted as the common wisdom. Torque, Feb. 7, 2005
:When you write something inflammatory like "Because this genocide myth is based on faith instead of reality, I'm aware of the faithful's feathers being ruffled."  All I can say is to look in the mirror, since you are actually talking about yourself but you just can't see it.  The whole world - and many Turks know that the genocide, like the holocaust, is a fact.  Your government disputes it for obvious reasons.  You dispute it out of either belief in your government, or a misplaced sense of honor.  
:Then you write: "This is why whenever I've countered the pro-genocide claims, I have used only pro-genocide sources or inarguable common sense. Those who can't stand their belief systems to be challenged should not simply cry "Disputed!" Tell us why these Turk-unfriendly sources would have lied, or have been in error."  No, it is not about any beliefs being challenged.  It is about being drowned in misinformation, irrelevant texts, non-sensicle arguements, and incredibly unreliable sources.  You did add all kinds of sources, and a few of them were even valid, but some were pretty much as valuable as "my friend Joe told me so".  Rabbi Albert Amateau is a great example of this.  Whether he existed, how a Rabbi supposedly convinced "young Armenians" he was not Jewish, and they (whoever these Young Armenians were) TOLD him something we are sure must be true, and that he related correctly, and all of this in direct conflict with what his friend Werfel saw and every other testimony says is just a big confusing mess.  But then I believe that is the point of this sort of quote.  Confuse.  Give the impression that there are other sides to the story.  And all this when Musa Dagh was a massive exception to the normal Armenian obedience to deportation and massacre anyways.
:You write: "Erich Feigl, "The Myth of Terror".  You use Feigl - as a SOURCE??  That book, like the racist and disgusting material on Tall Armenian Tale and that other lame book that came out a couple of years ago by an American guy (certainly not a scholar) married to a Turkish woman who died about the time of publication (I forget the name of the book now) are full of so many lies, mistakes, racist comments and more that any time you quote them you lose major credibility.  Responding to that drivel is pointless.
:I can go on and on (as I'm sure you can guess), but I am sure there is little point.  There was a genocide.  There have been studies to prove it and I am SURE you know of them and have read them.  The one by the International Center for Transitional Justice, which was commissioned by higher up retirees from the Turkish government, who were very anti-genocide is a perfect example.  It is online if you'd like a link.  My point is there is room for discussion, fine points, etc, but there is one truth, one conclusion.  The genocide is a fact.  How many Armenians died is irrelevant.  How many Armenians would have preferred Russian rule is irrelevant.  What matters is that it happened, that the Turkey of today must come to terms with it, and then let life go on.
:I hope we can work together to come to an article we can both agree is strictly correct and relevant - though past experience tells me odds are slim.  We have to stick to good, reputable sources, not add random extraneous quotes and materials, and see where we can get.  I am willing to work with you and to get rid of bad links, etc as well.  But seriously - the genocide is only disputed by one party - and that is the party that is the direct linear replacement of the perpetrator, the government of the Republic of Turkey.  It is a fact, and that needs to be faced.
:--RaffiKojian 17:59, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputing the Article 

message: In the interest of making the Talk page a bit shorter, I have moved the long analysis by Fadix to a sub page: Talk:Armenian Genocide/Fadix Analysis.  It seems to be a cut-and-paste of an earlier dilaog, but the details are not given, and the interlocutors are not identified.  --BM 21:39, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Fadix' Analysis

message: Now the mediator, like the ICTJ, no doubt has been exposed primarily to this propaganda, an "avalanche" of which is available in the West. I urge the mediator to read Gurun's book (http://www.eraren.org/eng/armfile.htm), and to look at this topic with an open mind. And I want to remind the mediator that Fadix has exposed himself to have Zero Credibility time and again. When one only presents an exclusive side, overlooking the rest, one's credibility dissipates.
One need look strictly at the Ottoman records to see how Armenians suffered immensely. There were many innocent Armenians among the 700,000 uprooted, and how awful it must have been to give up one's home and go to places unknown, under the command of those who didn't always have their best interest at heart. It's time the Armenians acknowledge the ones who put them in this harmful position were their fanatical leaders, when "Prudence was thrown to the winds," as K. S. Papazian wrote.
The whole idea behind genocide, notwithstanding silly definitions by the ICTJ where only one person needs to be killed, involves a systematic extermination plan, with the idea of killing off everyone. Were there Ottomans intending to exterminate the Armenians? The answer is: if the idea was to exterminate, a million couldn't have survived. But there were definitely those with murder on their minds.
But who were these Ottomans? They were NOT Talat, Enver, and Jemal. The real Ottoman orders safeguarded Armenian lives and property. In other words, there is no single shred of evidence tying in the central government to this great alleged crime.
This is why we must look at the BIG PICTURE. The Armenians rebelled. Posing too great a threat to the desperate nation engaged in a life or death struggle, they got relocated. Unfortunately, things went awry. There was a deep shortage of manpower and resources, and the huge task of transporting and relocating hundreds of thousands was compounded by locals who were corrupt, opportunistic and revengeful. (But what's forgotten are those who did their job properly; some gendarmes died defending Armenians from attack, and Morgenthau got direct word from an Armenian representative that 500,000 were carrying on well with their lives in September of 1915. Since he was another weasel, he didn't report this diary entry in his book.)
Let's compare with a recent operation conducted by the world's superpower, the USA. The USA didn't have any "time pressure" to war in Iraq, since Iraq wasn't threatening to invade America. The USA had all the time in the world to make sure everything went right. We are all aware how wrong things went. While there's a news block-out (a lesson learned from the Vietnam War), the public had a chance to see the agony inflicted upon Iraqi civilians through, for example, FAHRENHEIT 9/11. We are aware video game-playing or nervous American soldiers can be trigger-happy. We know, because of poor planning, cultural rape occurred when the Iraqi museum got looted. How do you think American soldiers would behave, let alone American civilians, if Ameria were on her knees with powers threatening every front, and a traitorous minority begins massacring fellow Americans, in exchange for promises of a new homeland? Don't you think at least some of them would avenge their massacred children and spouses?
The idea was to make sure the Armenians in each town composed no greater a number than 10%. This is why the fact that we are told the Armenians were marched off into the desert to die is another myth. The fact is, Armenians were dispersed within the Anatolian heartland, as well.... from Ankara to Konya, let's say. These are all in the Ottoman archives. Downright stupid decisions were made when villages Armenians were dispersed to were Kurdish villages. That was the end of these Armenians. Were they purposely sent to these villages because of "extermination" goals? That's a matter of speculation. Perhaps the official thought "we were all Ottomans," and nothing would happen to those Armenians.
There are even genuine telegrams indicating Talat Pasha was aware soldiers killed Armenians. The question: did these soldiers get orders from the top?
Let's go back to Iraq. Not long ago, an American soldier was sentenced to 12 or 15 years for tortures committed at the Abu Gharib prison. (Let's bear in mind Ottomans were tried and punished DURING the war for crimes against Armenians, some to the extent of execution.) The American said he was following orders. Of course; some local commander gave this soldier the thumbs up. But did these orders extend up to President Bush, the counterpart of "Talat Pasha"? (We don't know, because there's no proof. We can't blame Bush for deliberately giving such orders. Unless the evidence surfaces, or unless an Andonian comes up with forgeries.)
We know there were many more soldiers involved in Iraqi war crimes than the handful charged/tried, but only these few were scapegoated. Why? Because if there's a full-scale effort to find and punish every guilty party, morale on the home front would plunge. Compound that in a situation where a nation is battling for her very life. The fact that any Ottomans were punished at all, given their desperate situation, says a lot.
An important document bearing witness to "no genocide" is one written by Enver to Talat on May 2, 1915. This was after the last of the Van rebellions (until that time) and rebellions in other cities, followed by the April 24 order to arrest Armenian ringleaders. (All murdered on the same day, according to most Armenian propagandistic sources.) Enver notes the Armenian insurrection in Van, and the Russians' traditional method of expulsion of Muslims from lands they had conquered. (He writes, "Muslims within their borders," actually. So perhaps these were their own Muslims kicked out, to further strain the limited resources of the Ottomans who had to take care of them, and to use the war opportunity to get rid of an unreliable Muslim population. This expulsion took place on April 20.)
"In order to respond to this, as well as to reach the goal (of destroying the rebellion's nest)..., it is necessary to either send these Armenians and their families to Russia, or to disperse them within Anatolia. I request that the most suitable of these two alternatives be chosen and carried out. If there is no inconvenience I would prefer that the families of the rebels and the population of the region in rebellion are sent outside our borders and that the Muslim community brought into our borders from abroad are relocated to their place."
Enver opted for expulsing his country's traitorous Christians, just like Russia had been doing with her innocent Muslims. Sounds fair, doesn't it?
Note there is no thought of extermination, because of pan-Turanism, or because Muslims hate Christians, or the other phony reasons Armenian propaganda tells us served as the motive for genocide. Just boot them into the hands of their precious Russians! Why spend the milliions of dollars to relocate, and why divert precious resources and manpower on a relocating attempt within their own country?
Ironically (given the "genocide" charge), the Ottoman government chose the more HUMANITARIAN route. Yes, things went wrong. But the intentions were good.
I would like to request, regardless of how the article is finally presented, to remove the word "genocide" from the title. Another partisan had started a page at Wikipedia, pointing to the equally phony Pontus Greek "genocide" as the "Greek Holocausf" at Wikipedia. This name was justly changed. Similarly, we should only hold truth as our parameter, within this page.
And please keep the BIG PICTURE in mind. Not the dizzying array of confusing weasel facts Fadix is sure to present from his propaganda "avalanche," all amounting to "Joe said..." Honorable people don't resort to hearsay in the charge of a crime, particularly this great crime. When the British turned honorable, they ignored all the "avalanche" of hearsay and forgeries, and freed all the Turks at Malta because there was simply no reliable evidence to be found.
Raffi may be excused somewhat for perpetuating his propaganda, because he has only studied one side of his story, and has a "religious" bent. I don't know how Fadix can live with himself, as he has scrutinized this historic episode inside out. He is determined to support his agenda, regardless of the genuine facts. This is why Fadix, the Super Armenian Weasel Beast, has ZERO CREDIBILITY.--Torque March 1, 2005
===Answer===
::The only thing I exposed is that you have used non-existing quotations, non-existing works, non-existing materials, falsehood, and forgeries. And as I repeated countless numbers of times, you can shout that I have zero credibility hundreds of times, it won’t change the facts. To administrators, Torque, the author of the racist tallarmeniantale website, is pointing you to a work that has been written by a Turkish republic diplomat who’s salary was pied by the Turkish government at Ankara to write it. Wikipedia is an independent website, it is not a place where entries are made according to what a diplomat of a republic that deny a genocide write. Mr. torque present the 700,000 figure again, after that I have told him many times that this figure of 702,900 are manipulation of records, they are NOT the number of Armenians being “relocated” but rather the number of Muslim immigrants whom were fed, vaccinated etc. and relocated in the region which the Armenian population was destroyed. This figure of 700,000 is a distortion, one of those typical ones brought by the Turkish diplomat Kamuran Gurun, who’s the book Mr. torque is trying to make to promotion of.
::Mr. Torque, brings in again, the million survivor, which makes no sense at all, when the figures including mistakenly Russian Armenian refugees wasn’t even a million. This is not the only thing Mr. Torque does, but again he tries to discredit ICTJ lawyers, just because their conclusion he disagrees with. I will repeat for the Nnt time, ICTJ definition would apply for the murder of one person, ONLY IF, there was a process targeting a group, which led to at least one victim, in normal situation, the murder of one person would be considered as a murder.
::Mr. Torque claims that there is not a shred of an evidence linking the government with the crime. This is not true, and he should know best, I have documented the cases countless numbers of times, but then he refused to even consider the evidences, not so long ago, when I presented the evidences he claimed not having read them, and claimed he won’t read the supposed crap I was posting. There are memoir, linking the second special organization which members were convicts released from central prisons, now typical convicts the Mazhar and other commissions have documented that from the convicts most of them were murderers, specifically chosen to be members of the special organization and who were sent to escort the Armenian convoys. Mr. Torque claim there is no evidences, when I point him to the fact that even the commander of the Ottoman IIIrd army at the time that his mission was specifically where most of the eastern crimes happened, admit that the Ottoman trying to destroy the Armenians, this commander added that it was the Ottoman authorities that were responsible of this. General Halil, the Uncle of Enver, wrote in his memoire he tried to exterminate the Armenians to the last individual, General Ilham testified to his German colleagues that he managed to not leave one Armenians alive in the zone where he controlled. I pointed out the fact as well that it was the Ottoman authorities that have decided to sent back the refugees that survived and reached Allepo transit camp and the city of Zor. Sent back to the desert. What stronger evidences one want more than this? The Ottoman sent those people to Allepo and Zor, because they were supposed to be relocated there, after that many survives, the Ottoman sent them back(21 Convoys) in the desert… One ask the question, if the displacement of population was meant to be “relocation” why after that some reached this destination they were sent back in the desert? WHY? Mr. Torque claimed that I skip to answer his points. Everyone is free to read the exchanges and see by himself whom has skipped answering. Not only this, but the Ottoman actually barred access to the Red Cross by pretext that nothing wished to be done that could prolong the lives of the refugees, when the Germans proposed to help the refugees the Ottoman answered by similar disgusting excuses.
::Mr. Torque claims that we must look at the big picture. But he has to tell us all, how anything, ANYTHING!!! Could justify sending populations in the desert, how anything could justify sending criminals released from prisons to escort the convoys, how anything could justify baring access to relief to their OWN ALLIES!!! ANYTHING THAT COULD JUSTIFY SENDING BACK TO THE DESERT THOSE THAT REACHED THE CITY OF ZOR AND THE TRANSIT OF ALLEPO!!! Anything that could justify that the Ministers of Wars Uncle the Supreme General of the East, trying to eradicate the Armenians to the last individual as he write in his own memoirs. The BIG PICTURE he claims, but as Dr. Panzac, one of the best Ottoman specialist could get clarify, most of the Armenian losses happened from 1915 to 1916, while Muslim losses happened later, both losses TOTALLY UNRELATED!!! More German than Jews died in World War II, there were countless numbers of Jews serving in the Soviet Army, including in the allied army, the allies have bombed German cities, countless numbers of civilians death, the Russians committed severe crimes against the Germans. ACCORDING TO MR. TORQUES BIG PICTURE, THERE WAS NO SHOAH BECAUSE MORE GERMAN THAN JEWS DIED IN WWII. The entry of Armenian genocide is ABOUT the Armenian genocide, NOT ABOUT THE OTTOMAN WAR EFFORTS, NOT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE HISTORY OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE, NOT WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT MOST ARMENIANS DIED. NOOOO!!! It is about what happened to the Armenians in WWI, it is about the Ottoman government deciding to destroy its Armenian, Assyrian and Pontus Greek, Christian Arab etc. populations. This is what the genocide is all about. What it is all about is that there is NOT A SINGLE ARMENIAN LEFT IN THE HEART OF ANATOLIA, IF ONE CAN FIND ANY BETTER EVIDENCES THAN THE FACT THAT THERE IS ZERO!!! ZERO!!! ARMENIANS LEFT.  What bigger picture is Mr. Torque yapping about? What kind of dumb retarded, stupid thing to try to justify this by poops like: “Armenians rebelled.” As Mr. Anonymous pointed out, if the Armenians were in fact armed and in position to fight, they would have been able to prevent at least some of those “relocations.” BUT THERE IS NOT A SINGLE SUCH REPORTED RESISTANCE AGAINST THOSE “RELOCATIONS.” NOT A SINGLE ONE BESIDE MUSA DAGH!!! Mr. claim by referring to Morgenthau, that 500,000 were living well in September 1915… those are the kind of manipulation and distortions Mr. Torque uses, because hundreds of thousands of Armenians lost their lives in 1916, THAT WERE STILL SURVIVING IN 1915.
::Mr. Torque then bring the USA and attempt to compare. What kind of BS is this, while I bring concrete examples, which are not POV or interpretations, Mr. Torque uses such cheap tricks. What happened to the Armenians is well above some losing their controls, it was ordered from the top, Ottoman Generals in direct contact with the officials have managed to not leave a single Armenian alive in the zone they were controlling, and one has even admitted it in his own memoirs, another clearly reported it to his German colleague, there are regions where the survival rate was ZERO!!! It was not vengeance, it could not have been vengeance, Vengeance is not the destruction of the Armenian community from the Heart of Anatolia, it is not the complete DESTRUCTION of the Armenian presence from the heart of Anatolia, this according to any definition is genocide. That Mr. torque twist and twist and twist, and bring a so-called big picture, NOTHING will change of the fact that the Ottoman government has decided to destroy the Armenian population, and this is documented from the Germans, Austrians, the allies, and from many Ottoman references, including an Ottoman Martial Court that Mr. Torque try desperately to discredit.
::Mr. Torque now FALL IN NEW LOWS BY CLAIMING THAT THE MARCH IN THE DESERT TO DIE IS A MYTH!!! Perhaps, should Mr. torque visit Syria and ask to the elderly Nomadic Arabs at Del-El-Zeir to tell the story of the Armenians there, and what happened to them. Mr. Torque desperately is trying to prevent his poops being flushed out of his toilets. The 10% Quota, Mr. Torque is presenting specifically an evidences of genocide, this is called population assimilation and dispersion and is even included in the restrict genocide definition (which is more restrict than the UN one). Besides, this quota of 10% is as well present in German archives, from the same order, the German one is different than the Ottoman, the German one tells to destroy the rest of the Armenians. Which transcription as authentic, the German one that was widely available and that there is no reason for it to be a forgery, or the Ottoman one? I think I know. I’ll let readers judge by themselves.
::Mr. Torque claim that there are telegrams indicating that Talaat was aware that soldiers were killing Armenians. Let me remind about one of those telegrams from the Turkish foreign ministry. I guess they have forgotten to delete that one out when they have published that material. The massacres of Mardin, in which Talaat tells about those brought there to massacre, and ask that those measures should not be extended to other Christians… which is specifically clearly an evidences presented by Ankara, that the special organizations plan of mass laughter was directed by the leading figures, Talaat at the head.
::As it is clear, that yes! The orders DID extend to Talaat, Mr. Torque is comparing a cases in a building, with a decision involving practically all Anatolian Armenians, such a measure require a clear government involvement, the fact that criminals were released from the Central prisons in every unimaginable places in the Heart of Anatolia, REQUIRES a government implication, Lowry himself admitted that he did run across an evidences linking directly the massacres with the Ottoman authorities… this is called GENOCIDE!!! And any other irrelevant things such as Muslim losses have absolutely nothing to do with the Armenian genocide, the decision to “relocate” the Armenians was taken before what happened in Van, and even when using the Ottoman records released by Ankara, so this decision could not have been taken because of Armenian revolts, what happened later was the sole responsibility of the Ottoman Empire. And I outline again, the fact that there was beside Musa Dagh, no any cases of Armenians being able to resist those “relocations.” HOW ON EARTH THIS WAS POSSIBLE WHEN TORQUE CLAIMS ARMENIANS WERE WELL ARMED. The “relocation” started before the incidences of Van, and Armenians were not able to prevent them, regardless of how well armed Torque claim they were. The individual Torques likes quoting, Nogales, claims that it would have taken for the Armenians 30,000 people, with axes (not guns or rifles) to take Van, one wonder what would have happened, if there was 30,000 armed Armenians, when it would have taken 30,000 of them with axes, wood sticks to take it and kick the Ottoman @ss out of Van. 
::AND THEN, MR. TORQUE POOP AGAIN THE SAME TRASH, ALL OVER AGAIN, Anyone can warn me what I am going to say, I will take the responsibility for my words, since what I do, and say, I take all the responsibility contrary to some I won’t name, but I clearly now believe that Torque do suffer of psychiatric illness, I said this many times before, had to repeat again. That he still poop the claim that any Ottoman were punished at all as evidences to support his claim, after my essay clearly documented, with COUNTLESS relevant data, this guy is a lost causes really, and now I read what he has answered at the other section, I swear, my chest is hurting of laughter, with his attempt to answer that part. This is what it gives when there is no one reading here and making clear to Torque that he is a racist, and that his claims don’t hold water, but this time, I will ask to the readers here to read my upcoming answers(in a few days) to his last trash posted at the “Fadix analysis” section, and you will clearly see what kind of manipulation and distorter he uses. But for now, people have to read his above trash and poop about rebellions elsewhere, he has Van(even thought his Nogales that was at the front, witnessed that it was not the Armenians that started at Van), and now he tries to invent other rebellions, but I have used the Turkish foreign ministry official archives, to show that the decision to “relocate” the Armenians happened months BEFORE!!! Van!!!, in the relevant archive it is not said that Armenians were “relocated” because of rebellion, but rather that they should be deported and rebellion must not be permitted… Which “disprove” Mr. Torque claims. Mr. Torque perhaps would have expected Armenians to sit their like ships being butchered one by one, if it wasn’t of the armed resistance like in Musa Dagh, all the Armenians would have been BUTCHERED, that’s what Mr. Torque wanted to happe, because without the few localised resistance, I would have probably not been here answering to his trash.
::BUTTTTT!!! IT IS NOT ENOUGH!!! Shooting on his feet again. People remember when Mr. Torque claimed that Gurun has never claimed in his book that the decision was final, but as surprising as it seem, he just quoted Mr. Gurun reference that he uses to claim it was final. Enver claim, Enver the Minister of the War, whos uncle has tried to exterminate the Armenians to the last individual, the same Enver that soon during the war gut his @ss saved by an Armenian brigade, and sent a letter to the Armenians felicitating them for their loyalty, when at the same time he was forming the special organization that would later be charged to destroy the Armenian convoys. In fact, there is no way to confirm the trash coming from a government archive who deny the genocide even happened. But, there is a problem with this so-called Enver words, the ARMENIANS WERE NOT ALLOWED TO LEAVE THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE, THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO LEAVE FOR THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE. But yet, Mr. racist write this: “Enver opted for expulsing his country's traitorous Christians, just like Russia had been doing with her innocent Muslims. Sounds fair, doesn't it?” For the idiot, the Christians were traitors, while the Muslim were poor victims, what kind of generalising Islamic fanatic we must deal with, not only a blind Kemalistic nationalist, but as contradictory as it might sound, a religious fanatic who judge people based on not only their ethnicity, but as well on their religion.
::As an Armenian, I HAVE TO FACE MORONS LIKE THIS RACIST NAZI-LIKE FK, WHO WRITES MORONIC RACIST NAZI-LIKE TRASH SUCH AS THIS: “Ironically (given the "genocide" charge), the Ottoman government chose the more HUMANITARIAN route. Yes, things went wrong. But the intentions were good.”
::THE MORON STILL CONTINUE WITH THIS ALL CARING OTTOMAN THAT WAS HUMANITARIAN, so Humanitarian that has sent its population in the desert to die, SO HUMANITERIAN THAT THEY HAVE ACTUALY LIBERATED FROM THE CENTRAL PRISONS THE WORST CRIMINALS THAT WAS HUMANLY POSSIBLE TO FIND AND SENT THEM TO BUTCHER IN MASS ELDERLY, WOMEN AND CHILDREN, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT FINDING BRUTAL ENOUGH THE KILLING SUN BURNING THEM IN THE DESERT. This guy has no dignity, his dehumanisation is pathologic, he need to be medicated, and here I accept I am attacking him, but after my repeated attempt in trying to make him realise that he is a racist, and that his behaviour is clearly indicative of some serious condition, or someone ask him to STOP his generalisation of an entire people, stop his stupid sarcastic sick reversion of the role of victim and aggressors, and even daring to claim the Ottoman was humanitarian by its action. Is there no administrator here or shall I conclude that the English Wikipedia contrary to the French version is a shi-t hole? 
::“I would like to request, regardless of how the article is finally presented, to remove the word "genocide" from the title. Another partisan had started a page at Wikipedia, pointing to the equally phony Pontus Greek "genocide" as the "Greek Holocausf" at Wikipedia. This name was justly changed. Similarly, we should only hold truth as our parameter, within this page.”
::Your requests you can put them you know where. It is not for you to determine what a genocide is or not, the cases has been recognised as genocide by International bodies, the very large majority of historians, this place is not your website, the Neutral version should be what most expert recognise as true, and not what the Turkish government has manufactured.
::I will not quote his last two paragraphs and answer them: “And please keep the BIG PICTURE in mind. Not the dizzying array of confusing weasel facts Fadix is sure to present from his propaganda "avalanche," all amounting to "Joe said..." Honorable people don't resort to hearsay in the charge of a crime, particularly this great crime. When the British turned honorable, they ignored all the "avalanche" of hearsay and forgeries, and freed all the Turks at Malta because there was simply no reliable evidence to be found.”
::THAT IS NEW!!! I thought that history is written based on documents, I thought that claims must be supported, what I present are records, documents etc. I do not rely on cheap tricks and racist materials like you do. I do not rely on the Armenian republic diplomatic publications, when you yourself has as Bible a work published by Ankara a diplomatic publication. LASTLY, SALAK, HOW MANY TIMES DID I TOLD YOU BY DOCUMENTING THAT ALL MALTA PRISONERS WERE NOT RELEASED!!!!! THE BRITISH REFUSED TO RELEASE THOSE MOST CLOSELY IMPLICATED IN THE MASSACRES, AND THEY MANAGED TO ESCAPE. Stop lying pathologically, at least, when someone show me wrong, I stop making the same charge all over again, after being shown that I am wrong, a discussion is about exchanges of information, if you are not read to read what the other party say, why the hell do you even post here?
::“Raffi may be excused somewhat for perpetuating his propaganda, because he has only studied one side of his story, and has a "religious" bent. I don't know how Fadix can live with himself, as he has scrutinized this historic episode inside out. He is determined to support his agenda, regardless of the genuine facts. This is why Fadix, the Super Armenian Weasel Beast, has ZERO CREDIBILITY.--Torque March 1, 2005”
::POV, POV and POV!!! Charges against me which can not be supported. But you do have a point, I do have an agenda, and the agenda is to debunk the frauds who deny the extermination of over a million Armenians. Fadix 01:46, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Message to Mediator 

message: ::The only thing I exposed is that you have used non-existing quotations, non-existing works, non-existing materials, falsehood, and forgeries. And as I repeated countless numbers of times, you can shout that I have zero credibility hundreds of times, it won’t change the facts. To administrators, Torque, the author of the racist tallarmeniantale website, is pointing you to a work that has been written by a Turkish republic diplomat who’s salary was pied by the Turkish government at Ankara to write it. Wikipedia is an independent website, it is not a place where entries are made according to what a diplomat of a republic that deny a genocide write. Mr. torque present the 700,000 figure again, after that I have told him many times that this figure of 702,900 are manipulation of records, they are NOT the number of Armenians being “relocated” but rather the number of Muslim immigrants whom were fed, vaccinated etc. and relocated in the region which the Armenian population was destroyed. This figure of 700,000 is a distortion, one of those typical ones brought by the Turkish diplomat Kamuran Gurun, who’s the book Mr. torque is trying to make to promotion of.
::Mr. Torque, brings in again, the million survivor, which makes no sense at all, when the figures including mistakenly Russian Armenian refugees wasn’t even a million. This is not the only thing Mr. Torque does, but again he tries to discredit ICTJ lawyers, just because their conclusion he disagrees with. I will repeat for the Nnt time, ICTJ definition would apply for the murder of one person, ONLY IF, there was a process targeting a group, which led to at least one victim, in normal situation, the murder of one person would be considered as a murder.
::Mr. Torque claims that there is not a shred of an evidence linking the government with the crime. This is not true, and he should know best, I have documented the cases countless numbers of times, but then he refused to even consider the evidences, not so long ago, when I presented the evidences he claimed not having read them, and claimed he won’t read the supposed crap I was posting. There are memoir, linking the second special organization which members were convicts released from central prisons, now typical convicts the Mazhar and other commissions have documented that from the convicts most of them were murderers, specifically chosen to be members of the special organization and who were sent to escort the Armenian convoys. Mr. Torque claim there is no evidences, when I point him to the fact that even the commander of the Ottoman IIIrd army at the time that his mission was specifically where most of the eastern crimes happened, admit that the Ottoman trying to destroy the Armenians, this commander added that it was the Ottoman authorities that were responsible of this. General Halil, the Uncle of Enver, wrote in his memoire he tried to exterminate the Armenians to the last individual, General Ilham testified to his German colleagues that he managed to not leave one Armenians alive in the zone where he controlled. I pointed out the fact as well that it was the Ottoman authorities that have decided to sent back the refugees that survived and reached Allepo transit camp and the city of Zor. Sent back to the desert. What stronger evidences one want more than this? The Ottoman sent those people to Allepo and Zor, because they were supposed to be relocated there, after that many survives, the Ottoman sent them back(21 Convoys) in the desert… One ask the question, if the displacement of population was meant to be “relocation” why after that some reached this destination they were sent back in the desert? WHY? Mr. Torque claimed that I skip to answer his points. Everyone is free to read the exchanges and see by himself whom has skipped answering. Not only this, but the Ottoman actually barred access to the Red Cross by pretext that nothing wished to be done that could prolong the lives of the refugees, when the Germans proposed to help the refugees the Ottoman answered by similar disgusting excuses.
::Mr. Torque claims that we must look at the big picture. But he has to tell us all, how anything, ANYTHING!!! Could justify sending populations in the desert, how anything could justify sending criminals released from prisons to escort the convoys, how anything could justify baring access to relief to their OWN ALLIES!!! ANYTHING THAT COULD JUSTIFY SENDING BACK TO THE DESERT THOSE THAT REACHED THE CITY OF ZOR AND THE TRANSIT OF ALLEPO!!! Anything that could justify that the Ministers of Wars Uncle the Supreme General of the East, trying to eradicate the Armenians to the last individual as he write in his own memoirs. The BIG PICTURE he claims, but as Dr. Panzac, one of the best Ottoman specialist could get clarify, most of the Armenian losses happened from 1915 to 1916, while Muslim losses happened later, both losses TOTALLY UNRELATED!!! More German than Jews died in World War II, there were countless numbers of Jews serving in the Soviet Army, including in the allied army, the allies have bombed German cities, countless numbers of civilians death, the Russians committed severe crimes against the Germans. ACCORDING TO MR. TORQUES BIG PICTURE, THERE WAS NO SHOAH BECAUSE MORE GERMAN THAN JEWS DIED IN WWII. The entry of Armenian genocide is ABOUT the Armenian genocide, NOT ABOUT THE OTTOMAN WAR EFFORTS, NOT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE HISTORY OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE, NOT WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT MOST ARMENIANS DIED. NOOOO!!! It is about what happened to the Armenians in WWI, it is about the Ottoman government deciding to destroy its Armenian, Assyrian and Pontus Greek, Christian Arab etc. populations. This is what the genocide is all about. What it is all about is that there is NOT A SINGLE ARMENIAN LEFT IN THE HEART OF ANATOLIA, IF ONE CAN FIND ANY BETTER EVIDENCES THAN THE FACT THAT THERE IS ZERO!!! ZERO!!! ARMENIANS LEFT.  What bigger picture is Mr. Torque yapping about? What kind of dumb retarded, stupid thing to try to justify this by poops like: “Armenians rebelled.” As Mr. Anonymous pointed out, if the Armenians were in fact armed and in position to fight, they would have been able to prevent at least some of those “relocations.” BUT THERE IS NOT A SINGLE SUCH REPORTED RESISTANCE AGAINST THOSE “RELOCATIONS.” NOT A SINGLE ONE BESIDE MUSA DAGH!!! Mr. claim by referring to Morgenthau, that 500,000 were living well in September 1915… those are the kind of manipulation and distortions Mr. Torque uses, because hundreds of thousands of Armenians lost their lives in 1916, THAT WERE STILL SURVIVING IN 1915.
::Mr. Torque then bring the USA and attempt to compare. What kind of BS is this, while I bring concrete examples, which are not POV or interpretations, Mr. Torque uses such cheap tricks. What happened to the Armenians is well above some losing their controls, it was ordered from the top, Ottoman Generals in direct contact with the officials have managed to not leave a single Armenian alive in the zone they were controlling, and one has even admitted it in his own memoirs, another clearly reported it to his German colleague, there are regions where the survival rate was ZERO!!! It was not vengeance, it could not have been vengeance, Vengeance is not the destruction of the Armenian community from the Heart of Anatolia, it is not the complete DESTRUCTION of the Armenian presence from the heart of Anatolia, this according to any definition is genocide. That Mr. torque twist and twist and twist, and bring a so-called big picture, NOTHING will change of the fact that the Ottoman government has decided to destroy the Armenian population, and this is documented from the Germans, Austrians, the allies, and from many Ottoman references, including an Ottoman Martial Court that Mr. Torque try desperately to discredit.
::Mr. Torque now FALL IN NEW LOWS BY CLAIMING THAT THE MARCH IN THE DESERT TO DIE IS A MYTH!!! Perhaps, should Mr. torque visit Syria and ask to the elderly Nomadic Arabs at Del-El-Zeir to tell the story of the Armenians there, and what happened to them. Mr. Torque desperately is trying to prevent his poops being flushed out of his toilets. The 10% Quota, Mr. Torque is presenting specifically an evidences of genocide, this is called population assimilation and dispersion and is even included in the restrict genocide definition (which is more restrict than the UN one). Besides, this quota of 10% is as well present in German archives, from the same order, the German one is different than the Ottoman, the German one tells to destroy the rest of the Armenians. Which transcription as authentic, the German one that was widely available and that there is no reason for it to be a forgery, or the Ottoman one? I think I know. I’ll let readers judge by themselves.
::Mr. Torque claim that there are telegrams indicating that Talaat was aware that soldiers were killing Armenians. Let me remind about one of those telegrams from the Turkish foreign ministry. I guess they have forgotten to delete that one out when they have published that material. The massacres of Mardin, in which Talaat tells about those brought there to massacre, and ask that those measures should not be extended to other Christians… which is specifically clearly an evidences presented by Ankara, that the special organizations plan of mass laughter was directed by the leading figures, Talaat at the head.
::As it is clear, that yes! The orders DID extend to Talaat, Mr. Torque is comparing a cases in a building, with a decision involving practically all Anatolian Armenians, such a measure require a clear government involvement, the fact that criminals were released from the Central prisons in every unimaginable places in the Heart of Anatolia, REQUIRES a government implication, Lowry himself admitted that he did run across an evidences linking directly the massacres with the Ottoman authorities… this is called GENOCIDE!!! And any other irrelevant things such as Muslim losses have absolutely nothing to do with the Armenian genocide, the decision to “relocate” the Armenians was taken before what happened in Van, and even when using the Ottoman records released by Ankara, so this decision could not have been taken because of Armenian revolts, what happened later was the sole responsibility of the Ottoman Empire. And I outline again, the fact that there was beside Musa Dagh, no any cases of Armenians being able to resist those “relocations.” HOW ON EARTH THIS WAS POSSIBLE WHEN TORQUE CLAIMS ARMENIANS WERE WELL ARMED. The “relocation” started before the incidences of Van, and Armenians were not able to prevent them, regardless of how well armed Torque claim they were. The individual Torques likes quoting, Nogales, claims that it would have taken for the Armenians 30,000 people, with axes (not guns or rifles) to take Van, one wonder what would have happened, if there was 30,000 armed Armenians, when it would have taken 30,000 of them with axes, wood sticks to take it and kick the Ottoman @ss out of Van. 
::AND THEN, MR. TORQUE POOP AGAIN THE SAME TRASH, ALL OVER AGAIN, Anyone can warn me what I am going to say, I will take the responsibility for my words, since what I do, and say, I take all the responsibility contrary to some I won’t name, but I clearly now believe that Torque do suffer of psychiatric illness, I said this many times before, had to repeat again. That he still poop the claim that any Ottoman were punished at all as evidences to support his claim, after my essay clearly documented, with COUNTLESS relevant data, this guy is a lost causes really, and now I read what he has answered at the other section, I swear, my chest is hurting of laughter, with his attempt to answer that part. This is what it gives when there is no one reading here and making clear to Torque that he is a racist, and that his claims don’t hold water, but this time, I will ask to the readers here to read my upcoming answers(in a few days) to his last trash posted at the “Fadix analysis” section, and you will clearly see what kind of manipulation and distorter he uses. But for now, people have to read his above trash and poop about rebellions elsewhere, he has Van(even thought his Nogales that was at the front, witnessed that it was not the Armenians that started at Van), and now he tries to invent other rebellions, but I have used the Turkish foreign ministry official archives, to show that the decision to “relocate” the Armenians happened months BEFORE!!! Van!!!, in the relevant archive it is not said that Armenians were “relocated” because of rebellion, but rather that they should be deported and rebellion must not be permitted… Which “disprove” Mr. Torque claims. Mr. Torque perhaps would have expected Armenians to sit their like ships being butchered one by one, if it wasn’t of the armed resistance like in Musa Dagh, all the Armenians would have been BUTCHERED, that’s what Mr. Torque wanted to happe, because without the few localised resistance, I would have probably not been here answering to his trash.
::BUTTTTT!!! IT IS NOT ENOUGH!!! Shooting on his feet again. People remember when Mr. Torque claimed that Gurun has never claimed in his book that the decision was final, but as surprising as it seem, he just quoted Mr. Gurun reference that he uses to claim it was final. Enver claim, Enver the Minister of the War, whos uncle has tried to exterminate the Armenians to the last individual, the same Enver that soon during the war gut his @ss saved by an Armenian brigade, and sent a letter to the Armenians felicitating them for their loyalty, when at the same time he was forming the special organization that would later be charged to destroy the Armenian convoys. In fact, there is no way to confirm the trash coming from a government archive who deny the genocide even happened. But, there is a problem with this so-called Enver words, the ARMENIANS WERE NOT ALLOWED TO LEAVE THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE, THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO LEAVE FOR THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE. But yet, Mr. racist write this: “Enver opted for expulsing his country's traitorous Christians, just like Russia had been doing with her innocent Muslims. Sounds fair, doesn't it?” For the idiot, the Christians were traitors, while the Muslim were poor victims, what kind of generalising Islamic fanatic we must deal with, not only a blind Kemalistic nationalist, but as contradictory as it might sound, a religious fanatic who judge people based on not only their ethnicity, but as well on their religion.
::As an Armenian, I HAVE TO FACE MORONS LIKE THIS RACIST NAZI-LIKE FK, WHO WRITES MORONIC RACIST NAZI-LIKE TRASH SUCH AS THIS: “Ironically (given the "genocide" charge), the Ottoman government chose the more HUMANITARIAN route. Yes, things went wrong. But the intentions were good.”
::THE MORON STILL CONTINUE WITH THIS ALL CARING OTTOMAN THAT WAS HUMANITARIAN, so Humanitarian that has sent its population in the desert to die, SO HUMANITERIAN THAT THEY HAVE ACTUALY LIBERATED FROM THE CENTRAL PRISONS THE WORST CRIMINALS THAT WAS HUMANLY POSSIBLE TO FIND AND SENT THEM TO BUTCHER IN MASS ELDERLY, WOMEN AND CHILDREN, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT FINDING BRUTAL ENOUGH THE KILLING SUN BURNING THEM IN THE DESERT. This guy has no dignity, his dehumanisation is pathologic, he need to be medicated, and here I accept I am attacking him, but after my repeated attempt in trying to make him realise that he is a racist, and that his behaviour is clearly indicative of some serious condition, or someone ask him to STOP his generalisation of an entire people, stop his stupid sarcastic sick reversion of the role of victim and aggressors, and even daring to claim the Ottoman was humanitarian by its action. Is there no administrator here or shall I conclude that the English Wikipedia contrary to the French version is a shi-t hole? 
::“I would like to request, regardless of how the article is finally presented, to remove the word "genocide" from the title. Another partisan had started a page at Wikipedia, pointing to the equally phony Pontus Greek "genocide" as the "Greek Holocausf" at Wikipedia. This name was justly changed. Similarly, we should only hold truth as our parameter, within this page.”
::Your requests you can put them you know where. It is not for you to determine what a genocide is or not, the cases has been recognised as genocide by International bodies, the very large majority of historians, this place is not your website, the Neutral version should be what most expert recognise as true, and not what the Turkish government has manufactured.
::I will not quote his last two paragraphs and answer them: “And please keep the BIG PICTURE in mind. Not the dizzying array of confusing weasel facts Fadix is sure to present from his propaganda "avalanche," all amounting to "Joe said..." Honorable people don't resort to hearsay in the charge of a crime, particularly this great crime. When the British turned honorable, they ignored all the "avalanche" of hearsay and forgeries, and freed all the Turks at Malta because there was simply no reliable evidence to be found.”
::THAT IS NEW!!! I thought that history is written based on documents, I thought that claims must be supported, what I present are records, documents etc. I do not rely on cheap tricks and racist materials like you do. I do not rely on the Armenian republic diplomatic publications, when you yourself has as Bible a work published by Ankara a diplomatic publication. LASTLY, SALAK, HOW MANY TIMES DID I TOLD YOU BY DOCUMENTING THAT ALL MALTA PRISONERS WERE NOT RELEASED!!!!! THE BRITISH REFUSED TO RELEASE THOSE MOST CLOSELY IMPLICATED IN THE MASSACRES, AND THEY MANAGED TO ESCAPE. Stop lying pathologically, at least, when someone show me wrong, I stop making the same charge all over again, after being shown that I am wrong, a discussion is about exchanges of information, if you are not read to read what the other party say, why the hell do you even post here?
::“Raffi may be excused somewhat for perpetuating his propaganda, because he has only studied one side of his story, and has a "religious" bent. I don't know how Fadix can live with himself, as he has scrutinized this historic episode inside out. He is determined to support his agenda, regardless of the genuine facts. This is why Fadix, the Super Armenian Weasel Beast, has ZERO CREDIBILITY.--Torque March 1, 2005”
::POV, POV and POV!!! Charges against me which can not be supported. But you do have a point, I do have an agenda, and the agenda is to debunk the frauds who deny the extermination of over a million Armenians. Fadix 01:46, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Answer

message: I would like to thank our friends from Wikipedia attempting to straighten matters out here: MacGyverMagic, BM and Coolcat. 
I would like to state looking upon this issue as "the Turkish side" or "the Armenian side" is not as valid as looking at it from the side of truth. Believe it or not, "the Turkish side" is meaningless for me. I make up my own mind on what I see as the truth, and I’m not going to care what any government tells me. Similarly, I’m well aware of the Armenian tendency to distort and deceive, when it comes to perpetuating their cherished "innocence." It’s precisely because we are aware government accounts can’t always be trustworthy is why the omnipresent Armenian propaganda instills in our minds that "the Turkish side" is really the the Turkish government's side. because of the Armenians' smear tactics, anyone who thinks the Armenian genocide is a myth becomes a paid tool of the Turkish government. 
I can’t say I was really startled, because I have a good idea about how Fadix operates, but it had taken the longest time for me to compose my counter-view to his Wikipedia invasion; yet, only in the next day or so, I noticed Fadix has managed to create this huge counter-attack. There was a lot of material to cover, and he must be spending his entire life on this one issue. We are dealing with a professional propagandist.
And we are all aware of his tactics. When he doesn’t like a point, even when he can't address the point directly (his sole purpose is to barrage, saying anything and everything in an attempt to overpower), note how quick he is to make vicious accusations, such as "liar." This is clearly not a man who is interested in the truth, but to maintain his slanderous agenda at any cost whatsoever.
Note how whenever anyone addresses him, he answers in an emotional filibuster; he just has to get the last word on everything, regardless of how valueless his words are. He is out of control.
"The author's approach is not that of an historian trying to find out what happened and why but of a lawyer assembling the case for the prosecution in an adversarial system." This is the way Prof. Malcolm Yapp characterized the tactics of Fadix’s role model, the master weasel, Prof. Vahakn Dadrian. The words apply as well to Fadix. This is why his credibility level is non-existent.
I had to suppress laughter reading BM's gracious question to Fadix: "Please bear in mind that the Wikipedia requirement is for a Neutral Point of View, meaning that all significant points of view must be represented. Editors often find that this means "writing for the other side". Can you do that?" Can Fadix do that... quite a concept. He was smart in ducking the question, although he certainly answered indirectly.
Knowing how tricky our Zero Credibility friend can be, I set out to compose another rebuttal to his encyclopedic barrage. I tacked it on to "Fadix analysis," wondering if  that was the best place for it. If our kind supervisors can figure a more suitable placement, I'll leave it to their discretion.
However, my reply was eating up my day, and I was getting quite a headache. I was marveling anew at the Armenian Weasel Beast’s tenacity in knocking out his mini-encyclopedia in the shortest period of time. Clearly, he thrives on this sort of engagement. 
Finally, I had to stop. As much as I didn't want Fadix to get away with his prattle, there came the point where I had to conclude this is becoming a waste of time. I figured I should skim what Fadix had come up with after the point where I had stopped, but even that became a grind. His viciousness and saying ANYTHING just to try and prove himself and his genocide obsession to be correct is astonishing, and sad.
He did make one accurate point: I had attributed words of Justin McCarthy to Prof. Hovannisian. I prepared my report quickly, and it was an error. Fadix naturally charged me with willful fabrication, and I hope the reader will think otherwise.
Let me provide a few highlights of where Fadix had lost control and has kept proving his lack of credibility; further details may be found in TORQUE'S RESPONSE: "FADIX FUNNIES," resting in Fadix Analysis at the time of this writing:
He states "Germany" hadn’t reported on the Armenian rebellion, neglecting the testimony of the top German officers, von Sanders and Schellendorf. He also claims some Ottoman military personnnel were of a different opinion without offering sources, yet ignoring the REAMS of military reports detailing the Armenians' treachery. The fact that the Weasel Beast insists there was no Armenian Rebellion is simply unbelievable.
Fadix actually wrote: "Dadrian never claimed that the Andonians were authentic... he concluded that the arguments used can not support the claim that the documents were forgeries." In other words, Dadrian knows they are fake, but does his level best to throw smoke on the reasons why they are fake. Does that sound like weasel tactics from another Armenian "scholar" who has zero credibility? Fadix is in a good position to know.
Fadix tells us Gurun argued: "since the Armenians did not exist, an Armenian genocide could not have occurred"? Can anyone make heads or tails of that ridiculous statement? Kamuran Gurun is the author, whose book, "The Armenian File -- the Myth of Innocence Exposed" is the one I’ve provided an online link, for those who would like to get to the truth of this matter. I think Fadix is confusing this with a Talat Pasha quote Ambassador Morgenthau concocted, to the effect that since the Armenians were all killed, their insurance policies should be granted to the Ottoman state.
Fadix wrote: "...the cases was not about what did not happen, but what Tehlirian possibly witnessed that made him insane." Fadix's Zero Credibility level threatens to dip into negative territory at times. Soghoman Tehlirian is the assassin who fatally shot Talat Pasha, and his 1921 Berlin trial was about the murder. It was a shameful, fixed two-day trial where only witnesses for the defense were allowed. However, it was not an examination about why Tehlirian became insane. The trial clearly established Tehlirian was not insane, by the way. Fadix demonstrated his zero credibility twice in one sentence.
Fadix charged Prof. McCarthy with "falsifications and manipulations like the fact that the Erevan province is not present republic of Armenia." In the piece referred to, McCarthy had written, "In Erivan Province (today the Armenian Republic)." Anyone can see McCarthy's point was that the Erivan Province is one and the same with today's Armenia. Yet "Zero Credibility" attempts to make us believe McCarthy stated the complete opposite... while shamelessly speaking of  "falsifications and manipulations" in the same breath.
Fadix teaches us: "Propaganda is made for general public consumption, secret reports can not be propaganda." Then why does he ignore the voluminous inter-governmental Ottoman reports that spell out the Armenian rebellion and the orders to safeguard the Armenians, which is pretty illogical for a state bent on "genocide"?
Fadix tells us "the concept of citizenship and allegiance did not exist" in the Ottoman Empire. He then tries to make us believe only a handful rebelled, as his number one priority is to lessen the impact of his forefathers' treacherous rebellion, thus preserving the Myth of Innocence. However, "Zero Credibility" contradicts himself; if allegiance did not exist, it only fortifies the argument there would be a rebellion.  (And of course those who lived in the Ottoman Empire were all Ottoman "citizens," and there were many who were loyal among the greatly heterogeneous peoples. The Armenians were one of them for centuries, until they listened to their greedy, fanatical leaders.)
"Zero Credibility" attempts to throw smoke on "Men are Like That" by claiming it was only about the early period of 1905-06, and by playing down the point of the book, which was Armenian extermination efforts. "Zero Credibility" Fadix tries to give the impression the Armenians and Azeris were equally to blame, because "both groups tried to exterminate eachothers." This reeks of current Armenian propaganda, trying to show how "innocent" they were in the 1992 Karabakh events, where the Armenians love to accuse the Azeris of mutilating their own people for the press, of establishing humanitarian corridors for safe evacuation when in fact the corridors were used for easier rounding up of victims marked for death, and where an Azeri "whistle-blowing" reporter is said to have been killed by his own, when we don’t have to guess hard as to who his real killers were. Such is the level of Armenian propaganda: fabricate and deny. It's particularly ironic how Fadix attempts to misrepresent the book above, since The Jewish Times editorialized in 1990:
 
"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound." Imagining Fadix was truthful about the book solely representing events in 1905-06, maybe that would make Armenians guilty of the real "First Holocaust of the 20th century."
"Ottoman tolerance is a myth," claims our tragic friend. You would think he would at least know what the definition of "myth" is, since he is a first-class mythomaniac.
 
Let's compare with French treatment of the Algerians in 1877. Algerians: disallowed to own arms. Armenians: allowed. Algerians: disallowed from government posts. Armenians: allowed. Algerians: disallowed from moving around the country without permission. Armenians: allowed. Algerians: disallowed from being citizens unless they converted to Christianity. Armenians: the Turks restored the Armenian Patriarchate centuries ago, after it was taken away by fellow Christians. Armenians prospered for centuries, in key societal positions, while being allowed to maintain their religion. Remember, we are comparing the "Unspeakable Turk" with the "enlightened" and "civilized" French, who decimated the indigenous Algerian population from over four million in 1830 to less than 2.5 million by 1890.
When challenged, Fadix provided a page number (209) in "The Armenian File. The Myth of Innocence Exposed, The New York, 1985" pointing to the author's claim of the relocation (which Fadix puts in quotation marks) as being "final and terminal." He must own a special Armenian-printed version of the book, because I own the first edition, and Fadix exposed himself for being a dishonest prevaricator. The reader can refer to my directions (in my detailed rebuttal) on accessing the online version of the book which has faithfully been reproduced, at least as far as Pg. 209. (Briefly, go here and access the browser's "Find" function; type 371/9158 to get to the whereabouts of Pg. 209.)
"Bullcrap" is what Fadix said about my doubt regarding Gurun's "final and terminal" remark, and now he has been exposed. Here’s another comment I had made, a simply undeniable account for those who are into historical truth:
"We can now understand how important it was for the Ottomans to take the Armenian threat seriously. If the Russians crashed through the gates, there would no longer be a refuge for Turks and Muslims to escape to. The Ottoman Empire was the last stop. The struggle was truly a matter of life or death."
Fadix’s "ANSWER": Bullcrap.
We have a good idea of Fadix's slimeball tactics:
# Inundate with a mountain of weasel facts in order to confuse and detract
# When cornered, change the point
# At every opportunity, charge your opponent with being dishonest.
The Armenians know if you repeat a lie long enough, it will be believed. That's how they have gotten most to accept the validity of their mythical genocide. Fadix is aware of the strength of this strategy; that is why, the reader will notice, he goes to lengths to charge me with being a manipulator, fabricator or pathological liar at every opportunity.
It doesn't matter what ironclad evidence he is shown. Those with absolutely no reason to have lied will be dismissed as "trash." He has learned from his master, Vahakn Dadrian, very well; truth is their last concern. He will throw his carefully researched propaganda "avalanche" in a shrill and verbose manner, all in a sickening attempt to preserve his precious genocide agenda. 
He is a seven-headed hydra. Chop off one head, and several will grow in its place. There is no arguing with this kind of pharisee. I am aware mixing it up with the Super Armenian Weasel Beast is a futility exercise. It’s quite a dilemma, because he is free to spread his poison, nobody is as obsessed as he, and if left unchecked he knows he will gain the exclusive soapbox that Armenian propaganda has had the luxury of enjoying for the longest time.
On the other hand, none of us is engaging in this debate as a living, and we have other demands in life... unlike he, who apparently has all the time in the world to obsess over his life-sustaining genocide. There comes a point when the sane among us must contemplate what Fadix has adopted as one of his forum signatures: 
Never debate with a fool, because the longer you argue, the harder it is to tell who the fool is.--Torque March 6, 2005
===Answer===
::What a liar you are, if you were after the truth, you would not have used falsified materials, non-existing quotes, if you were for the truth, you would not have written Turks=Truth, supposing that everything Turks say is the truth. If you were for the truth, you would not have generalized and characterized Armenian's the way you did, with your racist comment such as: “Armenian way,” “so typical for an Armenian” etc. Why don't you tell us what happened in the French Wikipedia? Why don't you tell us that there is indeed an administrator at the French entry of the genocide, and another independent individual, and it ended up that your side had no relevant materials to support their theses, after that crap from tetedeturc website were brought etc. Why don't you tell us that the French entry after negotiations ended up being like the entry regarding the Holocaust? Why don't you tell MacGyverMagic, BM(I exclude Coolcat, because he is biased and has too much interaction in everything that regards Turkey, more particularly the political side), that the number of Turkish intellectual recognising the genocide is only growing endlessly? Why don't you tell them about the petition of 10,000 Turks asking for the recognition of the genocide? Why don't you say anything about the Turkish intellectuals like Fatma Gocek, Engin Akarli, Alta Gokalp fighting for the recognition of the genocide. You not interested in the Turkish Armenian point of view, but for the truth, go fool yourself? How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you just add and add BS and generalizations regarding the Armenians, and you just did that again in this post where you write: “Similarly, I’m well aware of the Armenian tendency to distort and deceive, when it comes to perpetuating their cherished "innocence."”
::But this is not enough, while I directly talk about the issue at hand, your goal is simply attacking my character and wishing that by doing such you will discredit the message. It is NOT by discrediting the messager that you will discredit the message. While I analysed McCarthy works, Gurun works, you have assassinated the character of people like Charny, Dadrian, Melson etc. This is how you operate, and this is how you operate in your website, where you post lies about Turkish intellectuals who recognize the Armenian genocide. You have no dignity, it is not enough that those people are threatened by the government, but they have to face hateful characters like you that try to “deconstruct”(the word you use as title here as an attempt to attack the massager(in this cases me)) them. After doing that you even dare to claim you are after the truth, I repeat, after assassinating the character of people, after using forgeries and falsifications to support your point, you have the face to tell readers that you are after the truth.
::But nooo, still this is not enough, because it is not enough that you use falsifications and distortions, it is not enough that you assassinate the character of people, but the most laughable is that you picture others the way that you yourself are. I called you a liar, because you are a liar, you lied when you presented a quoted claiming it was Hovannesians words when they were NOT... you have lied about this which you could not support, you have used materials that do not exist, and passed them as references that are valid, this is lying. And after all this, you have the audacity to claim that I have a slanderous agenda. 
::Mr. Torque quotes from Yapp, but why don't he quote the answer of Dadrian? Why does he not do so? Everyone can make charges, and Dadrian answer was one of the best answers one could have given, a clear analysis of Yapp charges against him. Yapp wasn't able to answer, but of course Mr. Torque would rather prefer hiding that under the carpets.
::Mr. Torque uses BM remark, but what this place is all about? This place is an encyclopaedia, and as any encyclopaedia should present the “neutral” point of view. Probably the encyclopaedia keeping the highest standards of all that I am aware of is the French encyclopaedia Universalis http://www.universalis.fr/ which is updated continually, it is a library alone. In fact, Wikipedia should try to take that encyclopaedia as an example of highest standard. I do have access to it, let see what it has to say about the Armenian genocide, not Armenian genocide entry, but the entry regarding genocide(since Mr. Torque will claim the Armenian genocide entry is biased, the product of an Armenian international “propaganda”). The article is pretty long and has been written by Professor Louis Sala-Molins. When reading the genocide entry(not the Armenian genocide), we find out that the Armenian cases is repeatedly present, as an example, as the originator, on the legal aspect, etc. The encyclopaedia which by my knowledge is the most voluminous and updated very very regularly(just recently it has published a very interesting article regarding the Shoah), not only contain the Armenian cases, but it minimizes as a little quotation the Turkish government position. Encarta, the same, Britannica in its publications is slowly following the same steps,(but seems to be much slower in virtual medials like the web) now are we to leave Wikipedia as an engine for denialists using it to propagate the Turkish government version of history? Ironicaly, Mr. Torque call what I do an “encyclopaedic barrages” while beside Britannica that is starting to follow other encyclopaedias, there is no any non-Turkish encyclopaedia that I am aware of that support his position. I though Wikipedia was meant to be an encyclopaedia. Isn't that right?
::Mr. Torque claim I do not answer his questions, everyone is free to go read my answers, I answer EVERY SINGLE WORD of the pseudo-Arguments he makes, while he selectively chose what to answer from my posts.
::Now, an interesting point: “He did make one accurate point: I had attributed words of Justin McCarthy to Prof. Hovannisian. I prepared my report quickly, and it was an error. Fadix naturally charged me with willful fabrication, and I hope the reader will think otherwise.”
::This is a first, where you recognize your mistake, a first. But sorry to say that it is not the first time you have done that, you did attribute other words to authors, words that did not exist, and that I find it worst when quoting words that actually exist. But this cases with McCarthy is not simple as you put it. It was not just a simple mistake from your part, you actually presented a page and commented it. But for that since you admit your mistake, I will excuse you for that and will not take into account that one.
::Mr. Torque quote Von Sanders, he probably has read that one from Raffis websites Tehlirian trial. But did Torque researched regarding this man and how he differentiate those limited groups in Van etc. with the rest of the Armenians? Has Mr. Torque read Sanders book: “Five Years in Turkey” published in 1927? Of course, probably not. What else Mr. Torque knows about Sanders? Probably Mr. Torque ignore Sanders threats of using the military to stop the preparation of the deportation of the Armenians from Smyrna, as he added not to protect the Armenians, since he didn’t give a thing for them, but rather all the resources the Ottoman were using to destroy the Armenians was seriously interrupting the war effort. Another thing Mr. Torque probably ignores about Sanders, and it was Sanders disgust regarding the decision of the destruction of the Armenians in the Capital. Another figure Mr. Torque refers to, and it is “Schellendorf” more known as General Major Fritz Bronsart von Schellendorf. Another thing he fished from the net, without knowing anything else from the man that the irrelevant quotes he copypasted. Bronsart, the Chief of Staff at the Ottoman General Headquarters and whom requested an emergency secret conference with Enver, Talaat Von Sanders and of course him, in which he concocted with Enver and Talaat a so-called Armenian rebellion and is accused of being one of the initiators of the anti-Armenian measures, and planning the replacement of the Armenian economical power from the East with the Germans. Another thing that Mr. Torque ignore is that by using Bronsart he is shooting in his own feet, because Bronsart is another evidences that the Armenians were NOT “relocated” because they were considered a threat for the Ottoman. Bronsart was the one proposing severe measures against the Armenian men in the Ottoman labour battalions, because he considered them as potential resistance against the Armenian deportations, which means that the Armenian deportations were not a consequences of any Armenian attacks, but rather the Armenian male were killed because they were considered as potential resistance to prevent the Armenian deportations. Bronsart was as well the responsible of the replacement of Scheutner Ritcher, because Ritcher was interceding in the behalf of the Armenians.
::But is this all about Bronsart? Is this all that must be said? I can discuss the matter, like how he was the leading figure and responsible of the German war effort on the Russian front by the intermediary of the Ottoman front soon during the war. Bronsart was as well a known racist, one of those Germans in the military that had Hitlerite mentality. The same sort as those NAZI and Holocaust denialists that accused the Jews for their own destruction. Let me now quote from Bronsart own words, in which he clearly refer to what happened to the Armenians as their murder, but accuses the Armenians and compare them to Jews: “Namely, the Armenian is just like the Jew, a parasite outside the confines of his homeland, sucking off the marrow of the people of the host country. Year after year they abandon their native land—just like the Polish Jews who migrate to Germany—to engage in usurious activities. Hence the hatred which, in a medieval form, has unleashed itself against them as an unpleasant people, entailing their murder.” (A. A. Bonn. Goppert Papers (Nachlass), vol. VI, file 5 (files 1-8), p. 4, February 10,1919).
::Coming now to the most important point, as readers here are witness of, I have requested from Mr. Torque to stop slandering people, but rather answering to their works, like I have done so. But Mr. Torque refuses and still slander Dadrian and yet again manipulate and distort, I have told him simply that Dadrian reviewed Orel and his colleagues analysis of the Andonians and concluded that their research is not valid, and Mr. Torque claim that Dadrian knows they are fake and try to divert the attention. But here again, this is entirely Mr. Torque POV nothing more, he tries to allude to things that had nothing to do with Dadrians research. While I point to references from McCarthy, Gurun, Ataov, Orel etc. Mr. Torque directly assassinate the characters of people like Melson, Akcam, Bertkay, Charny, Dadrian, Hovannessian etc. Since he can not address the message, he thinks that by attacking the messager it would be equivalent as analysing works, but this is not how it works, and readers here should know better, given that Mr. Torque repeatedly claims I have zero credibility and thinks that by saying this he could skip the entire point. 
::Now, having made my point clearer, now I will show how I can document all my claims.
::First, Mr. Torque answer to my point that Gurun made a statement regarding the genocide, by claiming that the fact that there was no Armenians, the genocide could not have happened, that's the entire point in his chapter regarding the origin of the Armenians. It is understandable that someone that is habituated of lying would believe that others are like him, the first time this point was been made was from a review by Eric Outshoorn. So again, if Mr. Torque has a problem with this, perhaps he could sue Eric for his review. But again, no one should take my words for it, read the entire chapter covering why us Armenians have never existed, and in fact we are not Armenians, so an Armenian genocide could not have happened, since we are not Armenians.(since the book as the title suggest is to expose us Armenian's)
::Coming to Tehlirian, Mr. Torque still persist with his poop, claiming it was a fixed trial, and that witnesses from the other party were not allowed, and this after I clearly told him why. Why he still persist one wonder, he claims that Tehlirian had all his mind and was not insane when he shot Talaat, but perhaps, mr. Torque is a licensed doctor, to be trusted more than the specialists that have examined him? And again, he claims I have zero credibility. Why? Because I decided to take the words of physicians against his? He claims that the trial established that he was not insane. Really? Where?
::McCarthy and the Erevan province, yes! McCarthy falsified and tried to pass the Erevan province(the lands of 1910) as the present republic of Armenia. This is what Mr. Torque writes: « Fadix charged Prof. McCarthy with "falsifications and manipulations like the fact that the Erevan province is not present republic of Armenia." In the piece referred to, McCarthy had written, "In Erivan Province (today the Armenian Republic)." Anyone can see McCarthy's point was that the Erivan Province is one and the same with today's Armenia. Yet "Zero Credibility" attempts to make us believe McCarthy stated the complete opposite... while shamelessly speaking of "falsifications and manipulations" in the same breath.”
::I will leave people decide whatever or not McCarthy falsified and manipulated. From 1910 to the formation of the SSR Armenia, the Armenian's have lost, Surmulu, Ardahan, Olti, Kaghisman, Kars, Kazakh, large section of the then Nakhitchevan, half of Sharur-Daralagiaz, those alone totalling 400,000 Muslim. But yet! McCarthy tries to fool the reader that those hundreds of thousands of Muslim have just disappeared, when their “losses”is just attributed to a lost of land from the Armenian's part, I can provide other lists, like those lost by the profit of Georgia as well, and even the fact that Alexandripole was considered as part of the Erevan province(since McCarthy mix different Erivan provinces regardless of the dates). Now, the question IS, did McCarthy not falsified history? Isn't surprising, since his quota of Muslim living in Erevan comes directly from Turkish government historiographies. Don't they have any dignities, the land is stolen, yet they count the Muslim living in those lands as casualties.
::Mr. Torque is comparing German documents, with Ottoman documents which appeared after over 60 years from shadowiness, he is trying to discredit official German secret reports by using so-called records from murderers and leading figures of the special organization... records guarded by a government that deny the genocide. Mr. Torque theses of validity of such documents would be only right if there was no genocide, but this is not how it works, one can not fix a position first and then try to interpret documents.
::Next, the guy fall more deeper by interpreting my remarks to fit his poops: “Fadix tells us "the concept of citizenship and allegiance did not exist" in the Ottoman Empire. He then tries to make us believe only a handful rebelled, as his number one priority is to lessen the impact of his forefathers' treacherous rebellion, thus preserving the Myth of Innocence. However, "Zero Credibility" contradicts himself; if allegiance did not exist, it only fortifies the argument there would be a rebellion. (And of course those who lived in the Ottoman Empire were all Ottoman "citizens," and there were many who were loyal among the greatly heterogeneous peoples. The Armenians were one of them for centuries, until they listened to their greedy, fanatical leaders.)” But those that have actually read my exact remarks they would understand that my point had nothing to do about confirming a rebellion, but it was a simple answer regarding his racistic and perpetual hateful and disgusting venomous uses of the word treacherous to dump the entire Armenian population, women, children and elderly in the treacherous camp. My point was if there was no citizenship, there could not have been treachery even if there was to be a mass rebellion. Empire are build on blood, wars, and conquest, populations are invaded and subject of the Empire, and not citizen. But of course, Mr. Torque short of anything will continuously use the word treachery.
::Torque then state: “"Zero Credibility" attempts to throw smoke on "Men are Like That" by claiming it was only about the early period of 1905-06, and by playing down the point of the book, which was Armenian extermination efforts.” 
::The entire section regarding the 1905-1906 constitute the large majority of references that apologists and denialists uses, the reader would be fooled into believing that the work describes the extermination of entire populations, when it is about a villages, and from Ohanus words(And BTW, Ohanus is even not an Armenian name, it's Ohannes, even though the author uses Ohanus, that's only because he still hasn't managed to learn the name of the guy he was supposed to follow for 8 years.) was a village from which, both sides tried to exterminate each others, and as I have noted, the village in question now is part of Azerbaijan, and there is no traces of Armenian's. One hardly can see how this work can document any Armenian extermination efforts, when the story isn't even about the Armenian's of the Ottoman Empire. So predicable, the less we have the more we expend it is said, and countless numbers of times Mr. Torque support this expression by his acts.
::Then, Mr. Torque bring 1992, one wonder what the hell 1992 has anything to do with the genocide entry, but as expected again, since he hasn't any much materials in his hands, he would rather use any insignificant and irrelevant trash he could fish from the web, and now he poop again a story about Armenian's having opened a corridor that helped them kill Azeris,  but it is yet again obvious that Mr. Torque has no idea of what he is talking about, since if he knew where was situated the corridor in question, and from where the victims were evacuated Mr. Torque would realise that his poop has already been flushed in the toilet. In fact, Mr. Torque way is trying to picture Armenian's as worst in the animals kingdom, he will find any insignificant trash, from thousands of years from Romans description of Armenian's, to the present time, a racist that Wikipedia will be better off. 
::Mr. Torque hasn't finished yet, he poop again, with the so-called editorial published in the Jewish Times in 1990, but is that true? I dare anyone here to research and find from where this story comes from, was this really published in the Jewish Times? Yes in fact it has been, but was it an editorial? Who was the author? It WAS NOT an editorial, it was a letter sent to the Jewish Times by Rachel Bortnick(known as Amado by the Turks), a Turkish Jew from Izmir, According to the records, the little republic of Armenia, after losing a large section of its lands, its Azerbaijani population represented 8,7% of its population, one wonder how the Armenian's could have exterminated those Muslim, when after the territorial losses, the Armenian's ended up representing a majority, because only the lands where the Armenian's were the most populous were left and became what we know now as the Armenian republic is not the same as... Readers have probably seen by now, by the few lists of lands that Armenian's have lost, a large section of the lands populated by Muslim were lost in the profit of Turkey, Azerbaijan and Georgia. Have I ever explained this to Mr. Torque. YES I DID!!!! But Mr. Torque preferred IGNORING IT!!! Because those things are the only way for him to divert the attention from the genocide by discussing about irrelevant things that have NOTHING to do with the subject. And this idiot(sorry for the administrator of Wikipedia for using such harsh words, but after reading what Torque has writen, and how he slanders, you will understand that my words are far from being harsh) has after this the face to claim I have zero credibility.
::This is his mentality.
::Cyprus = Everything Greeks fault.
::Conflict between Armenian and Azerbaijan= Everything Armenian's fault.
::The destruction of Ottoman Assyrians= Everything, Assyrians fault.
::The destruction of the Pontus Greeks= Everything Greeks fault.
::The destruction of the Armenian's= Everything Armenian's fault. 
::The Kurdish “Problem” =Everything Kurds fault.
::Etc. etc. etc. =The worlds fault.
::Now, let examine his comparison between Algerians and Armenian's.
::Torque: “Let's compare with French treatment of the Algerians in 1877. Algerians: disallowed to own arms. Armenians: allowed.” 
::The Penal code 166 restricted Armenian's to possess arms.
::Torque: “Algerians: disallowed from government posts. Armenians: allowed.” 
::Not in 1877
::Torque: “Algerians: disallowed from moving around the country without permission. Armenians: allowed.”
::The Ottoman had circulation permits and I hardly see what is the point here. Is it because Algerian's were ill-treated that there was no Armenian genocide?
::Torque: “Algerians: disallowed from being citizens unless they converted to Christianity.” 
::There was no concept of citizenship in the Ottoman Empire, but what is for sure true is that Armenians and Turks were not considered equals.
::Torque: “Armenians: the Turks restored the Armenian Patriarchate centuries ago, after it was taken away by fellow Christians.” 
::What's the point? 
::Torque: “Armenians prospered for centuries, in key societal positions, while being allowed to maintain their religion.” 
::I guess that's why the Armenian population hasn't stopped dropping in the last centuries.
::Torque: “Remember, we are comparing the "Unspeakable Turk" with the "enlightened" and "civilized" French, who decimated the indigenous Algerian population from over four million in 1830 to less than 2.5 million by 1890.”
::Provide evidences for that claim, or shut the F- up. And it's kind of funny that you bring this up, I guess it's difficult to find Algerians in the Algerian homeland... is the Algeria invaded by the French part of France now? Which part was taken away, which part there is no Algerians now? What was known as Ottoman Armenia, there is ZERO Armenians living there NOW, what is the population of Alegrians in Algeria now, EH? What kind of retarded idiot you are to bring such a comparison, when it obviously is against your position? Do you think that readers are enough dumb to fall into your traps? Show me any sign of a single Armenian living in Ottoman Armenia. GO AHEAD.
::My favoured part now, and it is Gurun book, in which Gurun state that the decision of relocation was final. Mr. Torque whom claim having read the book, proposed that I made that up, readers here are free to go read the Fadis analysis section, Mr. Torque answer to it, using this to question my evidences. I don't know how to say this, because I do consider that Mr. Torque has felt so deep, that I still wonder how he can dare answering. Perhaps Mr. Torque has searched for the words final and terminal. Maybe, but it is obvious that he has not read the book entirely as he claims having read it. I will ask the reader to verify it in the link Mr. Torque provided, I will help the reader and point to the relevant section: http://www.eraren.org/eng/armfile5.htm since I will cover this in my future answers, it would be interesting for others to read this entire section, reading it, you will come across Gurun uses of Enver regarding the “relocation” as being a final decision, to wipe out the Armenian real presence in the east, by sending them in Russia and dispersing them. In short, there was no return back, the decision, and this even Gurun claim so, was final... it is said that since the Armenian's always rebelled(the way he place it), it was the only option left, to claim that the measures taken against the Armenian's were temporary, and then Armenian's were simply allowed back, is not only distorting history, but it is even being more radical than the Turkish government. If the reader doesn't find the relevant information here, just ask me, and if I am not able to point it to you, you can then call me a liar and not trusting any words I write here. Now, the question is, did Torque really read all the work as he claimed? One wonder still. 
::This attempt of character assassination has been followed by this: "We can now understand how important it was for the Ottomans to take the Armenian threat seriously. If the Russians crashed through the gates, there would no longer be a refuge for Turks and Muslims to escape to. The Ottoman Empire was the last stop. The struggle was truly a matter of life or death."
::Wondering, what was the danger, that elderly, women and children were representing, when they were sent in the desert, and when butchers trained by the government were sent on them... seems the same sort of justifications the NAZI gave, when they viewed the Jews as the element that would lead to the destruction of the German fatherland.
::So, at the end, to conclude this post, I can give Torque one thing, and it is to know exactly what he does himself, when he uses a defence mechanism by accusing me of what he does. Let me show how. The first point he present as my method is: “Inundate with a mountain of weasel facts in order to confuse and detract.” The reader is free to compare the materials i use, which are reports of the time, with his, when he uses irrelevant crap from Roman speeches regarding Armenians, over a millennium ago, to the present conflict between the republic of Armenia and Azerbaijan.  While I document the points i make, which are are relevant and stick to the point(what happened during the events that is supposed to be Wikipedia entry). The second point he brings: “When cornered, change the point.” If that were to be true, I would have answered him the same way he answered to my posts, by skipping many points he made, but I actually answer by cutting every single little charges he makes. So how could I possibly skip his points, when I answer every points he makes? And finally: “At every opportunity, charge your opponent with being dishonest.” That's what he has been doing with me since the beginning. When I claim something, I state why i claim it, i support each claim I make, when I tell him he is dishonest, i tell him how, when and why he has been dishonest, no one can condemn me for reporting dishonesty when I see it.
::Now that the relevant points have been made, Mr. Torque further continue with his hateful generalizationist charges against the Armenians, he doesn't even see what is wrong to claim Armenians are lying, or when he claims that something is so typical of Armenians. I don't do that with Turks, why does he not stop his disgustful and hateful generalizations against the Armenians? And as I said, he doesn't find anything wrong doing that. When this man has lied, I told he  did lie, I never have made charges such as “so typical of Turks””again a Turkish lie.” I don't do this, because I know it is wrong, and it is against my Canadian principles. The rest of his the crap, simply poops(sorry again to the administrators to have used this word, if anyone can find a better term, please tell me, since my English is pretty limited, I don't find any better way to qualify his trash), on the above post I am answering to, doesn't worth to comment, for the exception of the last paragraph: “On the other hand, none of us is engaging in this debate as a living, and we have other demands in life... unlike he, who apparently has all the time in the world to obsess over his life-sustaining genocide. There comes a point when the sane among us must contemplate what Fadix has adopted as one of his forum signatures:Never debate with a fool, because the longer you argue, the harder it is to tell who the fool is.” Isn't it surprising, that while Raffi had real life demands and had no time to answer Torque, Mr. Torque was using this to past his hateful trash, the  same kind that he has used to build his hateful racist website, in which Armenians are presented as the worst life form existing on Earth. Isn't it surprising that Mr. Torque has all those hours to waste by posting thousands and thousands of words here as well as forums, but when someone answer him without giving up no matter how long he post, he start crying telling how he does not have as much time to answer? What kind of hypocrisy is this? Afteral, i am not the one having decided to invade Wikipedia with propaganda, I just answered this individual. If he doesn't like being answered, he just has to shut the fk up, when someone post, he should expect being answered, and most of all, when someone is shown that his position can not be supported by the uses of genuine materials, any honest person should stop. While I have shown him that a large section of the most relevant materials he uses don't even exist in the first place he use them regardless. Why forcing others to include trash, this place is an Encyclopaedia, not Mr. Torques webspace. Mr. Torque, that you like or not being answered, I don't care, I will do what others haven't done, I will be answering any single claims you make, and won't give up, mark my words, and until Wikipedia entry become really neutral like the French one, or the one like Encyclopaedias Universalis, I will fight against history revisionism. As for my expression you copypasted from hyeforum. It makes both of us fools, and mr. Torque? Fadix 22:30, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deconstructing Fadix 

message: ::What a liar you are, if you were after the truth, you would not have used falsified materials, non-existing quotes, if you were for the truth, you would not have written Turks=Truth, supposing that everything Turks say is the truth. If you were for the truth, you would not have generalized and characterized Armenian's the way you did, with your racist comment such as: “Armenian way,” “so typical for an Armenian” etc. Why don't you tell us what happened in the French Wikipedia? Why don't you tell us that there is indeed an administrator at the French entry of the genocide, and another independent individual, and it ended up that your side had no relevant materials to support their theses, after that crap from tetedeturc website were brought etc. Why don't you tell us that the French entry after negotiations ended up being like the entry regarding the Holocaust? Why don't you tell MacGyverMagic, BM(I exclude Coolcat, because he is biased and has too much interaction in everything that regards Turkey, more particularly the political side), that the number of Turkish intellectual recognising the genocide is only growing endlessly? Why don't you tell them about the petition of 10,000 Turks asking for the recognition of the genocide? Why don't you say anything about the Turkish intellectuals like Fatma Gocek, Engin Akarli, Alta Gokalp fighting for the recognition of the genocide. You not interested in the Turkish Armenian point of view, but for the truth, go fool yourself? How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you just add and add BS and generalizations regarding the Armenians, and you just did that again in this post where you write: “Similarly, I’m well aware of the Armenian tendency to distort and deceive, when it comes to perpetuating their cherished "innocence."”
::But this is not enough, while I directly talk about the issue at hand, your goal is simply attacking my character and wishing that by doing such you will discredit the message. It is NOT by discrediting the messager that you will discredit the message. While I analysed McCarthy works, Gurun works, you have assassinated the character of people like Charny, Dadrian, Melson etc. This is how you operate, and this is how you operate in your website, where you post lies about Turkish intellectuals who recognize the Armenian genocide. You have no dignity, it is not enough that those people are threatened by the government, but they have to face hateful characters like you that try to “deconstruct”(the word you use as title here as an attempt to attack the massager(in this cases me)) them. After doing that you even dare to claim you are after the truth, I repeat, after assassinating the character of people, after using forgeries and falsifications to support your point, you have the face to tell readers that you are after the truth.
::But nooo, still this is not enough, because it is not enough that you use falsifications and distortions, it is not enough that you assassinate the character of people, but the most laughable is that you picture others the way that you yourself are. I called you a liar, because you are a liar, you lied when you presented a quoted claiming it was Hovannesians words when they were NOT... you have lied about this which you could not support, you have used materials that do not exist, and passed them as references that are valid, this is lying. And after all this, you have the audacity to claim that I have a slanderous agenda. 
::Mr. Torque quotes from Yapp, but why don't he quote the answer of Dadrian? Why does he not do so? Everyone can make charges, and Dadrian answer was one of the best answers one could have given, a clear analysis of Yapp charges against him. Yapp wasn't able to answer, but of course Mr. Torque would rather prefer hiding that under the carpets.
::Mr. Torque uses BM remark, but what this place is all about? This place is an encyclopaedia, and as any encyclopaedia should present the “neutral” point of view. Probably the encyclopaedia keeping the highest standards of all that I am aware of is the French encyclopaedia Universalis http://www.universalis.fr/ which is updated continually, it is a library alone. In fact, Wikipedia should try to take that encyclopaedia as an example of highest standard. I do have access to it, let see what it has to say about the Armenian genocide, not Armenian genocide entry, but the entry regarding genocide(since Mr. Torque will claim the Armenian genocide entry is biased, the product of an Armenian international “propaganda”). The article is pretty long and has been written by Professor Louis Sala-Molins. When reading the genocide entry(not the Armenian genocide), we find out that the Armenian cases is repeatedly present, as an example, as the originator, on the legal aspect, etc. The encyclopaedia which by my knowledge is the most voluminous and updated very very regularly(just recently it has published a very interesting article regarding the Shoah), not only contain the Armenian cases, but it minimizes as a little quotation the Turkish government position. Encarta, the same, Britannica in its publications is slowly following the same steps,(but seems to be much slower in virtual medials like the web) now are we to leave Wikipedia as an engine for denialists using it to propagate the Turkish government version of history? Ironicaly, Mr. Torque call what I do an “encyclopaedic barrages” while beside Britannica that is starting to follow other encyclopaedias, there is no any non-Turkish encyclopaedia that I am aware of that support his position. I though Wikipedia was meant to be an encyclopaedia. Isn't that right?
::Mr. Torque claim I do not answer his questions, everyone is free to go read my answers, I answer EVERY SINGLE WORD of the pseudo-Arguments he makes, while he selectively chose what to answer from my posts.
::Now, an interesting point: “He did make one accurate point: I had attributed words of Justin McCarthy to Prof. Hovannisian. I prepared my report quickly, and it was an error. Fadix naturally charged me with willful fabrication, and I hope the reader will think otherwise.”
::This is a first, where you recognize your mistake, a first. But sorry to say that it is not the first time you have done that, you did attribute other words to authors, words that did not exist, and that I find it worst when quoting words that actually exist. But this cases with McCarthy is not simple as you put it. It was not just a simple mistake from your part, you actually presented a page and commented it. But for that since you admit your mistake, I will excuse you for that and will not take into account that one.
::Mr. Torque quote Von Sanders, he probably has read that one from Raffis websites Tehlirian trial. But did Torque researched regarding this man and how he differentiate those limited groups in Van etc. with the rest of the Armenians? Has Mr. Torque read Sanders book: “Five Years in Turkey” published in 1927? Of course, probably not. What else Mr. Torque knows about Sanders? Probably Mr. Torque ignore Sanders threats of using the military to stop the preparation of the deportation of the Armenians from Smyrna, as he added not to protect the Armenians, since he didn’t give a thing for them, but rather all the resources the Ottoman were using to destroy the Armenians was seriously interrupting the war effort. Another thing Mr. Torque probably ignores about Sanders, and it was Sanders disgust regarding the decision of the destruction of the Armenians in the Capital. Another figure Mr. Torque refers to, and it is “Schellendorf” more known as General Major Fritz Bronsart von Schellendorf. Another thing he fished from the net, without knowing anything else from the man that the irrelevant quotes he copypasted. Bronsart, the Chief of Staff at the Ottoman General Headquarters and whom requested an emergency secret conference with Enver, Talaat Von Sanders and of course him, in which he concocted with Enver and Talaat a so-called Armenian rebellion and is accused of being one of the initiators of the anti-Armenian measures, and planning the replacement of the Armenian economical power from the East with the Germans. Another thing that Mr. Torque ignore is that by using Bronsart he is shooting in his own feet, because Bronsart is another evidences that the Armenians were NOT “relocated” because they were considered a threat for the Ottoman. Bronsart was the one proposing severe measures against the Armenian men in the Ottoman labour battalions, because he considered them as potential resistance against the Armenian deportations, which means that the Armenian deportations were not a consequences of any Armenian attacks, but rather the Armenian male were killed because they were considered as potential resistance to prevent the Armenian deportations. Bronsart was as well the responsible of the replacement of Scheutner Ritcher, because Ritcher was interceding in the behalf of the Armenians.
::But is this all about Bronsart? Is this all that must be said? I can discuss the matter, like how he was the leading figure and responsible of the German war effort on the Russian front by the intermediary of the Ottoman front soon during the war. Bronsart was as well a known racist, one of those Germans in the military that had Hitlerite mentality. The same sort as those NAZI and Holocaust denialists that accused the Jews for their own destruction. Let me now quote from Bronsart own words, in which he clearly refer to what happened to the Armenians as their murder, but accuses the Armenians and compare them to Jews: “Namely, the Armenian is just like the Jew, a parasite outside the confines of his homeland, sucking off the marrow of the people of the host country. Year after year they abandon their native land—just like the Polish Jews who migrate to Germany—to engage in usurious activities. Hence the hatred which, in a medieval form, has unleashed itself against them as an unpleasant people, entailing their murder.” (A. A. Bonn. Goppert Papers (Nachlass), vol. VI, file 5 (files 1-8), p. 4, February 10,1919).
::Coming now to the most important point, as readers here are witness of, I have requested from Mr. Torque to stop slandering people, but rather answering to their works, like I have done so. But Mr. Torque refuses and still slander Dadrian and yet again manipulate and distort, I have told him simply that Dadrian reviewed Orel and his colleagues analysis of the Andonians and concluded that their research is not valid, and Mr. Torque claim that Dadrian knows they are fake and try to divert the attention. But here again, this is entirely Mr. Torque POV nothing more, he tries to allude to things that had nothing to do with Dadrians research. While I point to references from McCarthy, Gurun, Ataov, Orel etc. Mr. Torque directly assassinate the characters of people like Melson, Akcam, Bertkay, Charny, Dadrian, Hovannessian etc. Since he can not address the message, he thinks that by attacking the messager it would be equivalent as analysing works, but this is not how it works, and readers here should know better, given that Mr. Torque repeatedly claims I have zero credibility and thinks that by saying this he could skip the entire point. 
::Now, having made my point clearer, now I will show how I can document all my claims.
::First, Mr. Torque answer to my point that Gurun made a statement regarding the genocide, by claiming that the fact that there was no Armenians, the genocide could not have happened, that's the entire point in his chapter regarding the origin of the Armenians. It is understandable that someone that is habituated of lying would believe that others are like him, the first time this point was been made was from a review by Eric Outshoorn. So again, if Mr. Torque has a problem with this, perhaps he could sue Eric for his review. But again, no one should take my words for it, read the entire chapter covering why us Armenians have never existed, and in fact we are not Armenians, so an Armenian genocide could not have happened, since we are not Armenians.(since the book as the title suggest is to expose us Armenian's)
::Coming to Tehlirian, Mr. Torque still persist with his poop, claiming it was a fixed trial, and that witnesses from the other party were not allowed, and this after I clearly told him why. Why he still persist one wonder, he claims that Tehlirian had all his mind and was not insane when he shot Talaat, but perhaps, mr. Torque is a licensed doctor, to be trusted more than the specialists that have examined him? And again, he claims I have zero credibility. Why? Because I decided to take the words of physicians against his? He claims that the trial established that he was not insane. Really? Where?
::McCarthy and the Erevan province, yes! McCarthy falsified and tried to pass the Erevan province(the lands of 1910) as the present republic of Armenia. This is what Mr. Torque writes: « Fadix charged Prof. McCarthy with "falsifications and manipulations like the fact that the Erevan province is not present republic of Armenia." In the piece referred to, McCarthy had written, "In Erivan Province (today the Armenian Republic)." Anyone can see McCarthy's point was that the Erivan Province is one and the same with today's Armenia. Yet "Zero Credibility" attempts to make us believe McCarthy stated the complete opposite... while shamelessly speaking of "falsifications and manipulations" in the same breath.”
::I will leave people decide whatever or not McCarthy falsified and manipulated. From 1910 to the formation of the SSR Armenia, the Armenian's have lost, Surmulu, Ardahan, Olti, Kaghisman, Kars, Kazakh, large section of the then Nakhitchevan, half of Sharur-Daralagiaz, those alone totalling 400,000 Muslim. But yet! McCarthy tries to fool the reader that those hundreds of thousands of Muslim have just disappeared, when their “losses”is just attributed to a lost of land from the Armenian's part, I can provide other lists, like those lost by the profit of Georgia as well, and even the fact that Alexandripole was considered as part of the Erevan province(since McCarthy mix different Erivan provinces regardless of the dates). Now, the question IS, did McCarthy not falsified history? Isn't surprising, since his quota of Muslim living in Erevan comes directly from Turkish government historiographies. Don't they have any dignities, the land is stolen, yet they count the Muslim living in those lands as casualties.
::Mr. Torque is comparing German documents, with Ottoman documents which appeared after over 60 years from shadowiness, he is trying to discredit official German secret reports by using so-called records from murderers and leading figures of the special organization... records guarded by a government that deny the genocide. Mr. Torque theses of validity of such documents would be only right if there was no genocide, but this is not how it works, one can not fix a position first and then try to interpret documents.
::Next, the guy fall more deeper by interpreting my remarks to fit his poops: “Fadix tells us "the concept of citizenship and allegiance did not exist" in the Ottoman Empire. He then tries to make us believe only a handful rebelled, as his number one priority is to lessen the impact of his forefathers' treacherous rebellion, thus preserving the Myth of Innocence. However, "Zero Credibility" contradicts himself; if allegiance did not exist, it only fortifies the argument there would be a rebellion. (And of course those who lived in the Ottoman Empire were all Ottoman "citizens," and there were many who were loyal among the greatly heterogeneous peoples. The Armenians were one of them for centuries, until they listened to their greedy, fanatical leaders.)” But those that have actually read my exact remarks they would understand that my point had nothing to do about confirming a rebellion, but it was a simple answer regarding his racistic and perpetual hateful and disgusting venomous uses of the word treacherous to dump the entire Armenian population, women, children and elderly in the treacherous camp. My point was if there was no citizenship, there could not have been treachery even if there was to be a mass rebellion. Empire are build on blood, wars, and conquest, populations are invaded and subject of the Empire, and not citizen. But of course, Mr. Torque short of anything will continuously use the word treachery.
::Torque then state: “"Zero Credibility" attempts to throw smoke on "Men are Like That" by claiming it was only about the early period of 1905-06, and by playing down the point of the book, which was Armenian extermination efforts.” 
::The entire section regarding the 1905-1906 constitute the large majority of references that apologists and denialists uses, the reader would be fooled into believing that the work describes the extermination of entire populations, when it is about a villages, and from Ohanus words(And BTW, Ohanus is even not an Armenian name, it's Ohannes, even though the author uses Ohanus, that's only because he still hasn't managed to learn the name of the guy he was supposed to follow for 8 years.) was a village from which, both sides tried to exterminate each others, and as I have noted, the village in question now is part of Azerbaijan, and there is no traces of Armenian's. One hardly can see how this work can document any Armenian extermination efforts, when the story isn't even about the Armenian's of the Ottoman Empire. So predicable, the less we have the more we expend it is said, and countless numbers of times Mr. Torque support this expression by his acts.
::Then, Mr. Torque bring 1992, one wonder what the hell 1992 has anything to do with the genocide entry, but as expected again, since he hasn't any much materials in his hands, he would rather use any insignificant and irrelevant trash he could fish from the web, and now he poop again a story about Armenian's having opened a corridor that helped them kill Azeris,  but it is yet again obvious that Mr. Torque has no idea of what he is talking about, since if he knew where was situated the corridor in question, and from where the victims were evacuated Mr. Torque would realise that his poop has already been flushed in the toilet. In fact, Mr. Torque way is trying to picture Armenian's as worst in the animals kingdom, he will find any insignificant trash, from thousands of years from Romans description of Armenian's, to the present time, a racist that Wikipedia will be better off. 
::Mr. Torque hasn't finished yet, he poop again, with the so-called editorial published in the Jewish Times in 1990, but is that true? I dare anyone here to research and find from where this story comes from, was this really published in the Jewish Times? Yes in fact it has been, but was it an editorial? Who was the author? It WAS NOT an editorial, it was a letter sent to the Jewish Times by Rachel Bortnick(known as Amado by the Turks), a Turkish Jew from Izmir, According to the records, the little republic of Armenia, after losing a large section of its lands, its Azerbaijani population represented 8,7% of its population, one wonder how the Armenian's could have exterminated those Muslim, when after the territorial losses, the Armenian's ended up representing a majority, because only the lands where the Armenian's were the most populous were left and became what we know now as the Armenian republic is not the same as... Readers have probably seen by now, by the few lists of lands that Armenian's have lost, a large section of the lands populated by Muslim were lost in the profit of Turkey, Azerbaijan and Georgia. Have I ever explained this to Mr. Torque. YES I DID!!!! But Mr. Torque preferred IGNORING IT!!! Because those things are the only way for him to divert the attention from the genocide by discussing about irrelevant things that have NOTHING to do with the subject. And this idiot(sorry for the administrator of Wikipedia for using such harsh words, but after reading what Torque has writen, and how he slanders, you will understand that my words are far from being harsh) has after this the face to claim I have zero credibility.
::This is his mentality.
::Cyprus = Everything Greeks fault.
::Conflict between Armenian and Azerbaijan= Everything Armenian's fault.
::The destruction of Ottoman Assyrians= Everything, Assyrians fault.
::The destruction of the Pontus Greeks= Everything Greeks fault.
::The destruction of the Armenian's= Everything Armenian's fault. 
::The Kurdish “Problem” =Everything Kurds fault.
::Etc. etc. etc. =The worlds fault.
::Now, let examine his comparison between Algerians and Armenian's.
::Torque: “Let's compare with French treatment of the Algerians in 1877. Algerians: disallowed to own arms. Armenians: allowed.” 
::The Penal code 166 restricted Armenian's to possess arms.
::Torque: “Algerians: disallowed from government posts. Armenians: allowed.” 
::Not in 1877
::Torque: “Algerians: disallowed from moving around the country without permission. Armenians: allowed.”
::The Ottoman had circulation permits and I hardly see what is the point here. Is it because Algerian's were ill-treated that there was no Armenian genocide?
::Torque: “Algerians: disallowed from being citizens unless they converted to Christianity.” 
::There was no concept of citizenship in the Ottoman Empire, but what is for sure true is that Armenians and Turks were not considered equals.
::Torque: “Armenians: the Turks restored the Armenian Patriarchate centuries ago, after it was taken away by fellow Christians.” 
::What's the point? 
::Torque: “Armenians prospered for centuries, in key societal positions, while being allowed to maintain their religion.” 
::I guess that's why the Armenian population hasn't stopped dropping in the last centuries.
::Torque: “Remember, we are comparing the "Unspeakable Turk" with the "enlightened" and "civilized" French, who decimated the indigenous Algerian population from over four million in 1830 to less than 2.5 million by 1890.”
::Provide evidences for that claim, or shut the F- up. And it's kind of funny that you bring this up, I guess it's difficult to find Algerians in the Algerian homeland... is the Algeria invaded by the French part of France now? Which part was taken away, which part there is no Algerians now? What was known as Ottoman Armenia, there is ZERO Armenians living there NOW, what is the population of Alegrians in Algeria now, EH? What kind of retarded idiot you are to bring such a comparison, when it obviously is against your position? Do you think that readers are enough dumb to fall into your traps? Show me any sign of a single Armenian living in Ottoman Armenia. GO AHEAD.
::My favoured part now, and it is Gurun book, in which Gurun state that the decision of relocation was final. Mr. Torque whom claim having read the book, proposed that I made that up, readers here are free to go read the Fadis analysis section, Mr. Torque answer to it, using this to question my evidences. I don't know how to say this, because I do consider that Mr. Torque has felt so deep, that I still wonder how he can dare answering. Perhaps Mr. Torque has searched for the words final and terminal. Maybe, but it is obvious that he has not read the book entirely as he claims having read it. I will ask the reader to verify it in the link Mr. Torque provided, I will help the reader and point to the relevant section: http://www.eraren.org/eng/armfile5.htm since I will cover this in my future answers, it would be interesting for others to read this entire section, reading it, you will come across Gurun uses of Enver regarding the “relocation” as being a final decision, to wipe out the Armenian real presence in the east, by sending them in Russia and dispersing them. In short, there was no return back, the decision, and this even Gurun claim so, was final... it is said that since the Armenian's always rebelled(the way he place it), it was the only option left, to claim that the measures taken against the Armenian's were temporary, and then Armenian's were simply allowed back, is not only distorting history, but it is even being more radical than the Turkish government. If the reader doesn't find the relevant information here, just ask me, and if I am not able to point it to you, you can then call me a liar and not trusting any words I write here. Now, the question is, did Torque really read all the work as he claimed? One wonder still. 
::This attempt of character assassination has been followed by this: "We can now understand how important it was for the Ottomans to take the Armenian threat seriously. If the Russians crashed through the gates, there would no longer be a refuge for Turks and Muslims to escape to. The Ottoman Empire was the last stop. The struggle was truly a matter of life or death."
::Wondering, what was the danger, that elderly, women and children were representing, when they were sent in the desert, and when butchers trained by the government were sent on them... seems the same sort of justifications the NAZI gave, when they viewed the Jews as the element that would lead to the destruction of the German fatherland.
::So, at the end, to conclude this post, I can give Torque one thing, and it is to know exactly what he does himself, when he uses a defence mechanism by accusing me of what he does. Let me show how. The first point he present as my method is: “Inundate with a mountain of weasel facts in order to confuse and detract.” The reader is free to compare the materials i use, which are reports of the time, with his, when he uses irrelevant crap from Roman speeches regarding Armenians, over a millennium ago, to the present conflict between the republic of Armenia and Azerbaijan.  While I document the points i make, which are are relevant and stick to the point(what happened during the events that is supposed to be Wikipedia entry). The second point he brings: “When cornered, change the point.” If that were to be true, I would have answered him the same way he answered to my posts, by skipping many points he made, but I actually answer by cutting every single little charges he makes. So how could I possibly skip his points, when I answer every points he makes? And finally: “At every opportunity, charge your opponent with being dishonest.” That's what he has been doing with me since the beginning. When I claim something, I state why i claim it, i support each claim I make, when I tell him he is dishonest, i tell him how, when and why he has been dishonest, no one can condemn me for reporting dishonesty when I see it.
::Now that the relevant points have been made, Mr. Torque further continue with his hateful generalizationist charges against the Armenians, he doesn't even see what is wrong to claim Armenians are lying, or when he claims that something is so typical of Armenians. I don't do that with Turks, why does he not stop his disgustful and hateful generalizations against the Armenians? And as I said, he doesn't find anything wrong doing that. When this man has lied, I told he  did lie, I never have made charges such as “so typical of Turks””again a Turkish lie.” I don't do this, because I know it is wrong, and it is against my Canadian principles. The rest of his the crap, simply poops(sorry again to the administrators to have used this word, if anyone can find a better term, please tell me, since my English is pretty limited, I don't find any better way to qualify his trash), on the above post I am answering to, doesn't worth to comment, for the exception of the last paragraph: “On the other hand, none of us is engaging in this debate as a living, and we have other demands in life... unlike he, who apparently has all the time in the world to obsess over his life-sustaining genocide. There comes a point when the sane among us must contemplate what Fadix has adopted as one of his forum signatures:Never debate with a fool, because the longer you argue, the harder it is to tell who the fool is.” Isn't it surprising, that while Raffi had real life demands and had no time to answer Torque, Mr. Torque was using this to past his hateful trash, the  same kind that he has used to build his hateful racist website, in which Armenians are presented as the worst life form existing on Earth. Isn't it surprising that Mr. Torque has all those hours to waste by posting thousands and thousands of words here as well as forums, but when someone answer him without giving up no matter how long he post, he start crying telling how he does not have as much time to answer? What kind of hypocrisy is this? Afteral, i am not the one having decided to invade Wikipedia with propaganda, I just answered this individual. If he doesn't like being answered, he just has to shut the fk up, when someone post, he should expect being answered, and most of all, when someone is shown that his position can not be supported by the uses of genuine materials, any honest person should stop. While I have shown him that a large section of the most relevant materials he uses don't even exist in the first place he use them regardless. Why forcing others to include trash, this place is an Encyclopaedia, not Mr. Torques webspace. Mr. Torque, that you like or not being answered, I don't care, I will do what others haven't done, I will be answering any single claims you make, and won't give up, mark my words, and until Wikipedia entry become really neutral like the French one, or the one like Encyclopaedias Universalis, I will fight against history revisionism. As for my expression you copypasted from hyeforum. It makes both of us fools, and mr. Torque? Fadix 22:30, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Answer

message: Here is the account of a Swedish officer who saw no Armenians flowing in the Euphrates River, even though he travelled up and down the river with Armenian refugees during the fall of 1915. He witnessed hunger, starvation, and suffering among the Armenians, which no one denies. This is the suffering that is unjustly viewed separately from the suffering of the Muslim inhabitants. This suffering for all was committed in no small part by the supreme treason of the Armenian revolutionaries, supported and manipulated by the Allies who had agreed among themselves to carve up the carcass of the Sick Man of Europe, via secret treaties. 
"The situation of the Armenians: By one who was among them. A Swedish officer, H.J. Pravitz, takes a deeper look at the statements by Mrs. Marika Stjernstedt," Nya Dagligt Allehanda, a Swedish Newspaper published in the period 1859-1944, 23 April, 1917. Dr. Per A. Nordlund, a Swedish national, traced the original in the Swedish Royal Library, and translated, complying with a request by his Turkish-American friend, Dr. Erdal Atrek. 
Dr. Nordlund, the translator, was so moved by the fairness and truth in this article, he changed his views on the Armenian claims of genocide.
The situation of the Armenians: By one who was among them
By H.J. Pravitz , Nya Dagligt Allehanda , 23 April, 1917
H.J. Pravitz takes a deeper look at the statements previously had been made by Mrs. Marika Stjernstedt, Nya Dagligt Allehanda, a Swedish Newspaper published in the period 1859-1944. 
…………………………
"...Recently returned home from abroad I have right now – i.e. somewhat late – had the opportunity to look at two Swedish booklets on the Armenian issue. "Sven Hedin – adelsman" [Sven Hedin –a nobility], by Ossiannilsson and "Armeniernas fruktansvärda läge" [the terrible situation of the Armenians], by Marika Stjernstedt. The former book went immediately in the waste basket. In all its poorly hidden appreciation of the title character, it annoyed me more than a main article in Dagens Nyheter. The latter, which seemed spirited by the compassion for the suffering Armenians, I have read repeatedly, and it is really this and its inaccuracies that my article is about. 
I dare to claim, that hardly any other Swede has had the opportunity like me, to thoroughly and closely study the misery among the Armenians, since I now for about a month have traveled right among all the emigrating poor people. And this, during the right time, fall 1915, during which the alleged brutalities, according to both writers, were particularly bad. 
I want to hope, that what I am describing below, which are my own experiences, will have the purpose to remove the impression of inhumanity and barbarity from the Turkish and German side, which is easily induced by the reading of the two booklets mentioned above. 
If I understand the contents of the books correctly, both writers want to burden the Turks as well as the Germans with deliberate assaults or even cruelties. 
My position as an imbedded eyewitness gives me the right and duty to protest against such claims, and the following, based on my experiences, will support and strengthen this protest. 
Despite the fact that I was and am such a pronounced friend of Germany and its allies, which is consistent with the position of a servant of a neutral country, I started my journey from Konstantinopel (Istanbul - EK) through the Asian Turkey, with a certain prejudiced point of view, partly received from American travelers, about the persecution of the Armenians by their Turkish masters. My Lord, which misery I would see, and to which cruelties I would be a witness! And although my long service in the Orient has not convinced me that the Armenians, despite their Christianity, are any of God’s best children, I decided to keep my eyes open to see for myself to which extent the rumors about Turkish assaults are true and the nameless victims were telling the truth. 
I sure got to view misery, but planned cruelties? Absolutely nothing. 
This is precisely why it has appeared to me to be necessary to speak up. 
To start with, it is unavoidable to state, that a transfer of the unreliable Armenian elements from the northern parts of the Ottoman Empire to the south was done by the Turkish government due to compulsory reasons. 
It should have been particularly important to remove, from the Erzeroum district, all these settlers, who only waited for a Russian invasion to join the invading army against the hated local legal authority. When Erzeroum fell in February 1916, an Armenian, with whom I just shared Russian imprisonment, uttered something I interpreted as ‘It would have fallen way earlier if we had been allowed to stay’. That a country like Turkey, threatened and attacked by powerful external enemies, is trying to secure itself against cunning internal enemies, no one should be able to blame her. 
I think it points to a misconception when one claims that the Armenians are living under the uninterrupted distress of some sort of Turkish slavery. There are peoples that have it worse. Or what about Indian Kulis and Bengalis under British rule, and the Persian nationalists in Azerbaijan under the Russians' - "penétration pacificue", and the negroes in Belgian Congo, and the Indians in the Kautschuk district in French Guyana. All these, not to mention many others, seem to me, are victimized to a higher degree and more permanently than the Armenians. I guess technically, one can say that a longer lasting but milder persecution is less bearable to endure than a bloody but quick act of despotism, as in (Ottoman) assaults of the kind that from time to time put Europe’s attention on the Armenian issue. Apart from these periodical so-called massacres, the reason of which could to a large degree be ascribed to the Armenians themselves, I do think that the (Armenians) are treated reasonably well. 
The (Armenians) have their own religion, their own language, both in speaking and writing, their own schools etc. 
As far as the much discussed major Armenian migration is concerned, I am the first to agree that the attempts of the Turkish side to reduce the difficulties of the refugees left a lot to be desired. But I emphasize again, in the name of fairness, that considering the difficult situation in which Turkey, as the target of attack from three powerful enemies, was in and it was, in my opinion, almost impossible for the Turks, under these circumstances, to have been able to keep up an orderly assistance activity. 
I have seen these poor refugees, or "emigrants," to use Tanin's words, seen them closely. I have seen them in the trains in Anatolia, in oxen wagons in Konia and elsewhere, by foot in uncountable numbers up in the Taurus mountains, in camps in Tarsus and Adana, in Aleppo, in Deir-el-Zor and Ana. 
I have seen dying and dead along the roads – but among hundreds of thousands there must, of course, occur casualties. I have seen childrens' corpse, shredded to pieces by jackals, and pitiful individuals stretch their bony arms with piercing screams of "ekmek" (bread). 
But I have never seen direct Turkish assaults against the ones hit by destiny. A single time I saw a Turkish gendarme in passing hit a couple of slow moving people with his whip; but similar things have happened to me in Russia, without me complaining, not then, nor later. 
In Konia, there lived a French woman, madame Soulié, with family and an Italian maid. They lived there, despite the war, and the Turks did them no harm. And as far as the Germans stationed in the town are concerned, she called them 'our angels.' 'They give all they have to the Armenians!'. Such evidence of German readiness to sacrifice I established everywhere the Germans were. 
In Aleppo, I lived by the Armenian Báron, the owner of a large hotel. He did not tell me about any Turkish cruelties, although we talked a lot about the situation of his fellow citizens. We also talked about Djemal Pasha, who would come the day after and with whom I would meet. Báron expressed himself very positively about this man, who by the way, least of all seemed like an executioner. 
In Aleppo, I hired an Armenian servant, who then during a couple of months was my daily company. Not a word has he told me about Turkish cruelties, neither in Aleppo nor in his home town of Marash or elsewhere. I must unconditionally believe in exaggerations from Mrs. Stjernstedt’s side and I do not put one bit of confidence in the Armenian authorities she claims to refer to. 
On page 44, Mrs. Stjernstedt writes about (the town of) Meskene and an Armenian doctor Turoyan. I was in Meskene right when he was supposed to have been there. I looked carefully around everywhere for historical landmarks, since Alexander the great crossed the Euphrates (river) here, and the old testament also talks about this place. There was not a sign of Armenian graves and not of any Armenians either, except for my just mentioned servant. I consider Mr. Turayan’s evidence very questionable, and I even dare to doubt that this man, if he exists, was ever there during the mentioned time. If the conditions in Meskene really were as he claims, will anyone then believe that the suspicious Turks would have sent an Armenian up there with a "mission from the government"?
For fourteen days, I followed the Euphrates; it is completely out of the question that I during this time would not have seen at least some of the Armenian corpses that, according to Mrs. Stjernstedt’s statements, should have drifted along the river en masse at that time. A travel companion of mine, Dr. Schacht, was also travelling along the river. He also had nothing to tell when we later met in Baghdad. 
In summary, I think that Mrs. Stjernstedt, somewhat uncritically, has accepted the hair-raising stories from more or less biased sources, which formed the basis for her lecture. 
By this, I do not want to deny the bad situation for the Armenians, which probably can motivate the collection initialized by Mrs. Stjernstedt. 
But I do want to, as far as it can be considered to be within the powers of an eyewitness, deny that the regular Turkish gendarme forces, who supervised the transports, are guilty of any cruelties. 
Later on, in a different format, I want to impartially and neutrally like now treat the Armenian issue, but at the moment, may the adduced be enough. 
Rättvik, April 1917
HJ Pravitz. …………………………
--Torque March 6, 2005
===Fadix Answer===
::The only way to confirm this above article accurateness, is to find his treatment of the Armenian issue that according to this article is supposed to be published. It is obvious why, because this seems to be a letter published in the newspaper, and we know how easy it is to get a letter published in the newspaper when someone is claimed to have been there. 
::Why this criticism? Well, simply because the witnesses of the bodies being drawn in the Euphrates, are not just few. The British Consul Barnham had a team that has witnessed the same when he reported “Many of the victims were dragged to the Euphrates, and with weights tied to their feet thrown in ....” The Commander of Allepos IVrt army protested himself to the Governor of Diarbekir, and requested that the bodies floating in the Euphrates urgently needed to be buried. Those are just examples that come to mind. Just to show that the bodies floating in the Euphrates has been reported from every sides, and there are records that the Ottoman officials there took dispositions to bury the corps.  It is suspicious at best that someone claim there was no corps. Another thing, it is kind of unusual to have a Swedish official, why did he become a Russian prisoner, and how did he understand what the Armenian told him? Another point, he claims Meskene was clean, but even if it was to be no massacres there, it is nearly impossible that there was no Armenian grave there, when Meskene was used as a transit for tens of thousands to be sent to Del-El-Zor, how is it possible that he has seen no graves, because even if there was to be no massacres, there would still be graves. This was testified by German records dated July 1916, in which it is said that in Meskene 55,000 Armenians were buried, number confirmed by the Turkish military pharmacist stationed there for six months and by a Turkish officer’s deputy. Partly confirmed by Halacoglu, when he point out that in January 8, 1916, an attack between Aleppo and Meskene resulted in the death of many Armenians, by referring to a coded telegraph(Coding Office, no. 59/244) Those are just few examples to note, and I can analyse this above text more deeply if needed, but obviously even when using Turkish official records, this Swedish official claims don’t make any sense, and unless we have the material that was supposed to be published at hand, there is no any way to autentificate, if the letter here is not a fraud, given that the information presented is obviously false. Fadix 03:07, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  An Impartial Western Observer Who was a REAL EYEWITNESS 

message: ::The only way to confirm this above article accurateness, is to find his treatment of the Armenian issue that according to this article is supposed to be published. It is obvious why, because this seems to be a letter published in the newspaper, and we know how easy it is to get a letter published in the newspaper when someone is claimed to have been there. 
::Why this criticism? Well, simply because the witnesses of the bodies being drawn in the Euphrates, are not just few. The British Consul Barnham had a team that has witnessed the same when he reported “Many of the victims were dragged to the Euphrates, and with weights tied to their feet thrown in ....” The Commander of Allepos IVrt army protested himself to the Governor of Diarbekir, and requested that the bodies floating in the Euphrates urgently needed to be buried. Those are just examples that come to mind. Just to show that the bodies floating in the Euphrates has been reported from every sides, and there are records that the Ottoman officials there took dispositions to bury the corps.  It is suspicious at best that someone claim there was no corps. Another thing, it is kind of unusual to have a Swedish official, why did he become a Russian prisoner, and how did he understand what the Armenian told him? Another point, he claims Meskene was clean, but even if it was to be no massacres there, it is nearly impossible that there was no Armenian grave there, when Meskene was used as a transit for tens of thousands to be sent to Del-El-Zor, how is it possible that he has seen no graves, because even if there was to be no massacres, there would still be graves. This was testified by German records dated July 1916, in which it is said that in Meskene 55,000 Armenians were buried, number confirmed by the Turkish military pharmacist stationed there for six months and by a Turkish officer’s deputy. Partly confirmed by Halacoglu, when he point out that in January 8, 1916, an attack between Aleppo and Meskene resulted in the death of many Armenians, by referring to a coded telegraph(Coding Office, no. 59/244) Those are just few examples to note, and I can analyse this above text more deeply if needed, but obviously even when using Turkish official records, this Swedish official claims don’t make any sense, and unless we have the material that was supposed to be published at hand, there is no any way to autentificate, if the letter here is not a fraud, given that the information presented is obviously false. Fadix 03:07, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Fadix Answer

message: The following was posted in the article by an anonymous IP: --BM 01:07, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you expect Torque to stop his racist and hateful remarks, you're dreaming in colour. I've told him elsewhere to stick to answering and stoping to assassinate characters and slandering without success, so anyone has to do with what he is. I will be answering him, again and again, and I expect finaly that Wikipedia English entry be like what it is in its French entry, where there is an administrator, and it ended up that only really supported claims were included, now the French entry is clean, and probably the others as well. But in English we have Torque the author of tallarmeniantale that is using Wikipedia as a continuity of his personal website. Fadix 23:08, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text moved from article 

message: I agree with the writer Fadix that this page should be administered to prevent tampering.   I removed a recent partisan post by user 139.179.26.29 from the main ASALA page to the Talk:Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia page for discussion.  This same user has made small trolling changes to the Armenian Genocide page in the last 24 hours. DJ Silverfish 16:00, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it should be prevented tempering, but I do believe that everything that would be editted should first be discussed. I will soon edit important sections of the article, but that's because my next answer to Torque at the Fadix analysis version would be 60 pages long, and justify those changes. After reading Torque long article I have been very harsh with him, by using slanders, and I apologise befor even posting my answer. If an administrator read the section on question he or shw will understand my reaction, I repeatadble asked him to quit with his racist remarks and generalisations, he ignore my requests. While I attack an idiot when I find that my reaction is proportional with his tone, Torque slander an entire population. Since no one seems to want to do anything about it, I think no one would blame me. Fadix 19:08, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  administration