Talk:2008–09 UEFA Cup

message: I came up with an idea of having an inter-wiki project for Champions League, UEFA Cup and UEFA Intertoto Cup. The idea is we can have match reports from Wikinews and use them on Wikipedia article for 2008-09 Champions League, 2008-09 UEFA Cup and 2008 UEFA Intertoto Cup. There should be no sourcing issues since there is a requirement of 2 sources per match report.
#This is an inter-promotion thing for Wikimedia Foundation.
#All match reports would be of the same standard.
#The standard NPOV will be in the match reports as required by Wikinews and Wikipedia.
There will be 213 matches for Champions League, 359 UEFA Cup matches, 78 Intertoto Cup matches for a total of 650 matches. Therefore, there will be a number of people needed to do this. If you're interested or have any questions or comments, you can ask them here or if you would like to sign-up, you can go here. Don't write how this is too big or a bad idea. This is to survey to see how viable this is. However, if you have some constructive comment or question, then feel free to add. Kingjeff (talk) 21:33, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Inter-Wiki project idea

message: I moved the Early Issue section because it's better to see it at the top then inbetween the first round and final. 76.67.62.25 (talk) 05:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Early issue

message: Do we need the English clubs controversy section? Surely the section would only be relevant if Cardiff had qualified for the UEFA, which they haven't. KyleRGiggs recently added a hidden comment saying it shows the future of the Welsh teams playing in England. How does it? Surely we should have the section when a Welsh side actually wins the FA Cup, not when they haven't. --OZOO (Whaddya think, sirs?) 10:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, sorry for changing the name here, because Giggs for Temporary is me, who was temporary suspended due to compromising of the account, I have said before. It is easier to reach my user talk page if I make that change. Sorry for be rude. :) Raymond Giggs 12:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Back to the topic, it is still worthy to mention. Despite Cardiff City will not qualify to the UEFA Cup, Platini has interrupted before. The interruption is worthy to mention enough. On the other hand, it really shows the future of the three Welsh teams playing in England. Platini's statement has clearly stated that he is strongly supporting Cardiff City's place, and The FA finally succumbed, and promised that Cardiff City may get a UEFA Cup ticket if they win the FA Cup. It may (not must) means that all Welsh clubs playing in England could allow to get a UEFA competition ticket by English competition in the future. Raymond Giggs 12:13, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: However, to reduce the arguments on "The future of the Welsh clubs", I removed those words, just keep the words "Do not remove this session". Raymond Giggs 12:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  English Club controversy 

message: FC Nordsjælland have been added as the Danish fair-play representive. Is this sourced to anything? The present source only mentions Denmark, not the team. --OZOO (Whaddya think, sirs?) 10:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. According to the amateurs website by Bert Kassies, no team is confirmed. But Nordsjælland and Copenhagen would get this spot. I suppose the contributor who added Nordsjælland is because Copenhagen got a UEFA Cup ticket. I have no idea for including this team or not. Raymond Giggs 12:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's not forget that the Danish season isn't even over yet... Falastur2 (talk) 15:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If there's no source, it shouldn't be added. Verifiablity, not truth. OZOO (Whaddya think, sirs?) 16:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, agree. Raymond Giggs 05:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Source for Danish fair-play competition: http://www.dbu.dk/sr/poolFairPlayPosition.aspx?poolid=52169. 33rd and last week of games will be this weekend. Hockey-holic (talk) 22:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  FC Nordsjælland 

message: I noticed that both IRL teams are listed as unseeded first qualification round teams. However, St Patricks have been put in the table for second qualification round teams. Since I assume that Irish FA teams are not allowed to get directly into the second round, is this a case of wrong placement? 91.36.192.161 (talk) 10:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct, Irish teams enter at the first qualifying round. It seems someone moved the last row of the first qualifying round to the last row of the second, I have fixed it now. - MTC (talk) 11:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification of Rep. of Ireland teams needed 

message: MTK Budapest won their game against Rákospalotai EAC tonight. With MTK playing Sopron this weekend (see www.kicker.de) and all matches of Sopron being counted as won for their opponents (see Sopron's wiki page for details), MTK cannot be moved from 1st place any more. So, the "Hungarian picture" looks like the following:
MTK Budapest: Clinched CL qualification spot
Debreceni VSC: Clinched UEFA Cup qualification spot
Honvéd Budapest: Earned spot of Hungarian Cup winner because they play Debrecen in the finals - Edited: Honvéd not in, see below Hockey-holic (talk) 11:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since those edits back and forth are annoying, I looked for UEFA's participation criteria for domestic cup winners. To sum it up: The losing cup finalist will gain the spot If and only if the winner has qualified for UEFA Champions League. In all other cases, the spot will be awarded to the team finishing right behind the regular UEFA Cup spots. Taken this fact, and Honvéd losing 7-0 in the 1st leg of the Cup finals, Győri ETO FC are all but qualified for the UEFA Cup. Hockey-holic (talk) 11:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hungarian participants set

message: *June 27, 2008 draw for 1st qualifying round of the UEFA Cup
*July 17, 2008 1st qualifying round UEFA Cup, 1st leg
*July 31, 2008 1st qualifying round UEFA Cup, 2nd leg
*August 1, 2008 draw for 2nd qualifying round of the UEFA Cup
*August 14, 2008 2nd qualifying round UEFA Cup, 1st leg
*August 28, 2008 2nd qualifying round UEFA Cup, 2nd leg
*August 29, 2008 draw for 1st round UEFA Cup
*September 18, 2008 1st round UEFA Cup, 1st leg
*October 2, 2008 1st round UEFA Cup, 2nd leg
*October 7, 2008 draw for UEFA Cup group stage
*October 23, 2008 1st matchday UEFA Cup group stage
*November 6, 2008 2nd matchday UEFA Cup group stage
*November 27, 2008 3rd matchday UEFA Cup group stage
*December 3/4, 2008 4th matchday UEFA Cup group stage
*December 17/18, 2008 5th matchday UEFA Cup group stage
*December 19, 2008 draw for 3rd and 4th round UEFA Cup
*February 18/19, 2009 3rd round UEFA Cup, 1st leg 
*February 26, 2009 3rd round UEFA Cup, 2nd leg
*March 12, 2009 4th round UEFA Cup, 1st leg
*March 18/19, 2009 4th round UEFA Cup, 2nd leg
*March 20, 2009 draw for quarter-finals and semi-finals UEFA Cup
*April 9, 2009 Quarter Finals UEFA Cup, 1st leg
*April 16, 2009 Quarter Finals UEFA Cup, 2nd leg
*April 30, 2009 Semi Finals UEFA Cup, 1st leg
*May 7, 2009 Semi Finals UEFA Cup, 2nd leg
*May 20, 2009 Final UEFA Cup (Istanbul)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.64.82.83 (talk) 18:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Here are some dates 

message: First, thanks to Isavevski for coming up with the source. According to this article, FK Zemun have not gained an UEFA license in order to participate in this year's UEFA Cup. They have ten days to appeal this decision. If the ruling still stands after that, their spot of being the losing domestic Cup finalists will be awarded to 4th placed Borac Cacak.Hockey-holic (talk) 21:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Zemun's appeal has failed, meaning that Borac will advance to the UEFA Cup and OFK Beograd taking their Intertoto Cup spot. Hockey-holic (talk) 14:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cup winner spot, Serbia 

message: If CSKA does not regain its UEFA license, there will be no CL participant from Bulgaria this year. Thus, Levski, Litex and Locomotiv Sofia would remain in the UEFA Cup.
Source: 
* Bulgaria's football champions out of Uefa Champions League? - see last sentence
See also the Champions League talk page.
Hockey-holic (talk) 09:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bulgarian participants 

message: Vote for one overall sortable table which would include one column for qualifying goals, one column for final tournament goals and an overall column which would combine the two previously mentioned columns.
Player  	Team    	QR	FT	Total
Player A	Team A  	5 	14	19
Player B	Player B	1 	15	16
Player C	Team A  	3 	17	20
Player D	Team C  	- 	10	10
#Kingjeff (talk) 19:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Overall table

message: Vote for two tables where one table would include only qualifying goals and the other table would only include final tournament goals.
;Qualifying goals:
Rank	Name                  	Team                	Goals
1   	Pavel Pogrebnyak      	Zenit St. Petersburg	10
1   	Luca Toni             	Bayern Munich       	10
3   	Stefan Kießling       	Bayer Leverkusen    	7
4   	Henrik Larsson        	Helsingborg         	6
4   	Razak Omotoyossi      	Helsingborg         	6
4   	Adrian Mutu           	Fiorentina          	6
7   	Dimitar Berbatov      	Tottenham Hotspur   	5
7   	Miroslav Klose        	Bayern Munich       	5
7   	Lukas Podolski        	Bayern Munich       	5
7   	Dimitrios Papadopoulos	Panathinaikos       	5
7   	Sergio Agüero         	Atlético Madrid     	5
7   	Fernando Cavenaghi    	Bordeaux            	5
7   	Roland Linz           	Sporting Braga      	5
7   	Jon Dahl Tomasson     	Villarreal          	5
;Final Tournament goals:
Rank	Name                  	Team                	Goals
1   	Pavel Pogrebnyak      	Zenit St. Petersburg	10
1   	Luca Toni             	Bayern Munich       	10
3   	Stefan Kießling       	Bayer Leverkusen    	7
4   	Henrik Larsson        	Helsingborg         	6
4   	Razak Omotoyossi      	Helsingborg         	6
4   	Adrian Mutu           	Fiorentina          	6
7   	Dimitar Berbatov      	Tottenham Hotspur   	5
7   	Miroslav Klose        	Bayern Munich       	5
7   	Lukas Podolski        	Bayern Munich       	5
7   	Dimitrios Papadopoulos	Panathinaikos       	5
7   	Sergio Agüero         	Atlético Madrid     	5
7   	Fernando Cavenaghi    	Bordeaux            	5
7   	Roland Linz           	Sporting Braga      	5
7   	Jon Dahl Tomasson     	Villarreal          	5
I know the example tables are from last season's UEFA Cup. Just pretend they are two different tables. Kingjeff (talk) 03:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Two tables

message: Rank	Name                  	Team                	Goals
1   	Pavel Pogrebnyak      	Zenit St. Petersburg	10
1   	Luca Toni             	Bayern Munich       	10
3   	Stefan Kießling       	Bayer Leverkusen    	7
4   	Henrik Larsson        	Helsingborg         	6
4   	Razak Omotoyossi      	Helsingborg         	6
4   	Adrian Mutu           	Fiorentina          	6
7   	Dimitar Berbatov      	Tottenham Hotspur   	5
7   	Miroslav Klose        	Bayern Munich       	5
7   	Lukas Podolski        	Bayern Munich       	5
7   	Dimitrios Papadopoulos	Panathinaikos       	5
7   	Sergio Agüero         	Atlético Madrid     	5
7   	Fernando Cavenaghi    	Bordeaux            	5
7   	Roland Linz           	Sporting Braga      	5
7   	Jon Dahl Tomasson     	Villarreal          	5
Only include goals from the tournament proper.
# This is the only thing that can be done without bringing this to WT:FOOTY, as this change would have ramifications for dozens of articles.  --  Grant.Alpaugh 20:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: One table

message: If, as some suggest, the qualifying matches are not part of the UEFA Cup, then why are those results on this page?  Shouldn't they be on some other page - Qualification for the UEFA Cup 2008-09 or something like that? Jlsa (talk) 05:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You make a good point, but I think that deals with a very slightly different area. The discussion above deals with the creation of statistical tables collating the goal scoring record of the qualifying rounds, something which would be unique to Wiki, and consequently against the spirit if not the law of WP:OR. Given the nature of the qualifying rounds, outlining the results alone on the same page makes sense (unlike the World Cup, say, where it would create a massive article with unclear progression). doktorb wordsdeeds 05:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It still seems odd.  The "tournament info" box will state that (IIRC) 125 matches were played, but anybody looking through the tables will see far more than that (and, there really is no indication in the page as to why this would be the case). Additionally, (and to get ridiculously technical) the UEFA regulations for the UEFA refer to the qualifying rounds as part of "the competition" (6.0.1) - just not part of the "main competition" - and outlines the workings of the round (ie, a knockout round) in the same section as all the "proper rounds" (as it happens, the description of the qualifying rounds and the first round in sections 6.0.2 and 6.0.3 is virtually identical text, except for the words "Qualifying-phase" rather than "First Round").  Many of the other regulations make no distinction between qualifying rounds and the main phases.  By way of contrast FIFA regulations for the World Cup refer to qualification and the finals as two completely separate competitions and outlines the workings of them under two separate sections of the regulations (Preliminary Competition - sections 15-24 and Final Competition - sections 25-44). Similarly, almost all the relevant sections of the regulations for Euro 2008 have separate sections for the qualifiers and the finals - even bits that would seem silly like "Kit approval procedure" Jlsa (talk) 05:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

text: The UEFA website notes "Only strikes from the first round onwards count towards the totals" (for the award for Top Scorer in the UEFA Cup), which raises the question - If goals in the qualifying rounds were not part of the UEFA Cup, why would you need this caveat?  UEFA counts all other results obtained in the UEFA Cup qualifying round just the same as it counts results obtained in later rounds.  See, for example, the historical results for FK Rudar Pljevlja which states they have played 2 UEFA Cup games in their history (in the first qualifying round last season for those who don't remember their Montenegrin history).  Not two qualifying games different from the UEFA cup, but 2 games in the UEFA Cup, counted exactly the same way as Zenit's match in the UEFA Cup final.  If the "qualifying rounds" are not part of the UEFA Cup, why are they counted here? Jlsa (talk) 23:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay fine, we've solved the issue then.  Qualifying rounds are part of the tournament, but goals are not counted per UEFA directive.  Case closed.  --  Grant.Alpaugh 03:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That problem (quite apart from the charming back and forth between you and Kingjeff) is that the article as it stands is obviously confused on a number of levels.  First, the qualification section says 119 teams qualified for the UEFA Cup (so, obviously that is including the qualifying rounds), but the tournament box will probably try to say that there were 125 games (whatever) - so qualifying rounds aren't in.  UEFA's list is not about listing the goals scorers, it is about giving an award to a top scorer.  Any table Wikipedia creates following this has therefore to be very clear about what it covers, and why.  That is, it has to say "This table excludes goals in qualifying rounds because UEFA exclude them for the purposes of their top scorer awards".  That's fine - but then the question of why a second table can't be included that includes these other goals - which have definitely been scored in the UEFA Cup is asked.  The arguments against this are 1) it's a lot of work (not your problem, someone else needs to do it - although if the table appeared to be half arsed you'd be well within your rights to delete it), 2) it's not what we've done before (so what, there's lots of cases where Wikipedia's coverage of events expands in more recent editions - just look at old WC qualification details cf the current one), 3) it's not what UEFA does (again, so what, as long as we are clear as to what the table is, and it is accurate), 4) it's WP:OR (that's just silly, it's just statistical collation, that does appear elsewhere as noted before - compare that with the "on the next matchday" stuff in the World Cup tables.  I don't think any confederation puts this information out, and I know when I do it I'm working it out for myself, but it's always in these tables because it's factual and it's of interest - and don't try and delete them, people expect this sort of stuff in their wikipedia).  So, in conclusion, demanding a table that matches UEFA's table is fine - but preventing others from adding a secondary table that is clearly labelled and is accurate seems wrong.  By the way, your arguments relying on the WC Qual vs WC final difference etc are really, really weak.  You would be much better using the example of the FA Cup in this case, then you could at least make a sensible comparison.Jlsa (talk) 23:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My argument is (and always has been) that you have an interesting case to make, and we should have a discussion about this on WT:FOOTY so that we can get a broad consensus about whether qualifying rounds are part of tournaments or not, etc.  Maybe we should have different rules for club and international football tournaments.  There are a lot of things to iron out, and I think we should definitely talk about them.  --  Grant.Alpaugh 18:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Grant, if qualifying rounds are part of the tournament, then wouldn't this mean that everything about them including results and goalscorers? Also, since when does UEFA direct Wikipedia? I also like how you said "case closed." That typically is you. Kingjeff (talk) 03:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you read?  The quote specifically says that only goals from the first round onwards (i.e. the competition proper) count toward totals for UEFA's purposes.  Compiling statistics and giving them undue significance is the very definition of WP:OR.  I don't understand what is so controversial about that.  --  Grant.Alpaugh 04:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that's not what the quote says. It says they only goals from a certain point count for the top scorer award. Goalscorers in other rounds are mentioned in reports, and certainly deserve to be tabulated in articles that include the results of such games. Besides, UEFA is hardly an independent third-party source. - fchd (talk) 05:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But if we're going to have a list of top goalscorers that isn't in violation of WP:OR then we can't include them in that table.  It's really as simple as that.  --  Grant.Alpaugh 05:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Or we use lists generated by RSSSF, or whatever. Anyway, tabulating existing information in a combined form is not WP:OR - read the definition of original research in that policy. The goalscorers are verifiable from match reports, taken from UEFA or a myriad of third-party sources. I could see where you could argue under WP:N (but I'd vehemently disagree), but definitely not under WP:OR. - fchd (talk) 07:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

text: We don't make things up for WP.  That's called WP:OR.  As for your second comment, please catch the next clue train that comes through your area.  Or you could always go back to leaving the project.  Or maybe annoying the people at the German WP would be a nice change of pace?  You just want to have an argument for argument's sake.  Gag me with a spoon.  --  Grant.Alpaugh 04:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

text: First of all, I, unlike, I think, yourself, can read.  Unfortunately, that doesn't give me the ability to divine meaning from nonsense like "Doesn't this mean that recording results is giving undue significance?"  If you wouldn't mind, I'd love for you to explain to me how in the flying fuck that would be the case.  --  Grant.Alpaugh 04:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Excuse my ignorance, but what the hell does that have to do with anything we're talking about?  --  Grant.Alpaugh 05:02, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That has nothing to do about the issue at hand. I think you're single minded and wondered about your opinion on what a woman's role in society is. Kingjeff (talk) 05:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you're a douchebag and should go back to leaving everyone alone, so I guess we're even.  Either way the issue seems to have been pretty fairly settled.  Get fucked.  --  Grant.Alpaugh 05:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Why is there ANYTHING on this page

message: Somebody wrote that the current groups for the first round proper will be the eventual groups for the group stage. However, this isnt the case - there's a separate draw (as it even says on the page here) for the group stage to determine the groups. I think we need to make sure this isnt changed and that people dont get misled here. Either way, I changed it. Interesting draw though! --Simonski (talk) 14:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Group Stage

message: Anybody any idea when they're announcing the specific fixtures for the group stage? --130.159.248.44 (talk) 11:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It will be some time today. I'm surprised they're not out already, tbh. – PeeJay 11:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out Bert Kassies' site, as linked on the UEFA coefficient page. It's unofficial, but it tends to get it right. If you look just above the green-coloured title bar for "Group Stage" it lists the order in which teams are drawn for the group stage, including who is at home, according to the pot they were drawn from, i.e. Team A v Team E or whatever. Then link that to this page's infobox at the top which has match dates and you can determine each club's games. Falastur2 Talk 12:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm...I take it back. Having reexamined the evidence, I'm not now entirely sure that the teams A, B, C, D and E are chosen by the pots but by a random computer draw, so...yeah. I retract my previous statement (though the website linked is very helpful otherwise). Falastur2 Talk 12:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's correct. Although the order of fixtures has already been determined, the allocation of the teams to the A, B, C, D and E slots is done by a computer draw, the results of which have not yet been released. – PeeJay 13:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's also massaged so that clubs in exceptionally cold climates (e.g. Russian clubs) aren't usually at home in the last set of fixtures when the chances of postponements are high. - fchd (talk) 13:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a table for the fixture at the main article. Could anybody help for fixing it? Thanks :D Raymond "Giggs" Ko 02:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fixtures for Group Stage

message: I'd like to make two tables into one line. Such as the design at the free agents section in 2008–09 Miami Heat season article. But it seems failed. Could anybody give me a help? Thanks. Raymond "Giggs" Ko 02:29, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand what you're asking. Why would you want transfer tables in the UEFA Cup article? – PeeJay 09:01, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I see what he wants to do - I believe he intends to put the "league tables" for Groups A and B next to each other on the same line, then C and D directly underneath, then E and F, G and H. However, I'd still prefer to add a results table to fill those gaps instead, I can't see why it can't be done. Falastur2 Talk 14:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The actual problem might be that every team plays just once against every other team. Hence a results table would either contain too many shaded boxes (à la Slovak Superliga 2008–09, for example), or people would try to fill in all results in one line on a permanent basis. So, in order to avoid any confusion, a listing of all group games should be preferred over a table (but that's just my two cents). Hockey-holic (talk) 15:09, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that in leagues, too many shaded boxes becomes unsightly - though I would disagree that that totally negates its usefulness - but I think that in a table of five teams, there really shouldn't be a problem. I'm putting together a few alternatives on my userspace as we speak, to test my theory before implementing it. Falastur2 Talk 15:25, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

text: I submit the following for your approval: see here. I'm up for trying a different style if anyone wants to request one, but I haven't yet set up my internet in my Uni house yet (hoping to today) so be aware it may take a few days to appear. Of course, you can also experiment yourselves. Falastur2 Talk 15:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks MTC. That's what I mean. Thanks :D Raymond "Giggs" Ko 10:46, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Design of group stage tables 

message: Rather pointless, no? Especially at this stage regarding first/second place, when there is another article for the group stage which repeats it all. Surely all that matters is whether they go through or not? It just makes the main UEFA Cup page unnecessarily long. Feudonym (talk) 00:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Long permutations 

message: Ia there an explanation somewhere as to what the regions map is about? Why are there regions within UEFA and do the affect the set up of the cup competition somehow? Wiggy! (talk) 12:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's so that teams in the qualifying stage of the UEFA Cup get drawn together, so they don't have to travel so far for a qualifying match. – PeeJay 12:46, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've put a bit more text under the picture to explain what the regions are for. Falastur2 Talk 15:40, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, gentlemen. I'm smarter now. Wiggy! (talk) 15:59, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Regions map

message: 2008-09 UEFA Cup. This map is wrong! Cyprus has two clubs in the first round.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.109.53.237 (talk) 18:15, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 2 

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thread_title:  External links modified