Talk:Noel Pemberton Billing

message: HOwever it is transliterated, what is it? BrainyBabe (talk) 06:11, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean you don't know!? It's Albanian for King. See King of Albania. Billing is referring to William, Prince of Albania, who was kicked out of Albania following a coup in 1914 and went to Germany to join the German army under an assumed name. I changed the spelling because Hoare's book uses that spelling. If in the original text it was really spelled M'Prit it should be changed back, but I can't at the moment find any evidence of that. Paul B (talk) 09:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Alas, my education is sorely lacking. I thought Albanian kings were zogs, as Egyptian ones were pharoahs.  COuld you gloss it in the article please? BrainyBabe (talk) 12:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've linked it. Zog was the name of the guy who eventually replaced William, until he was overthrown too. Paul B (talk) 12:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  M'bret or M'prit 

message: I removed "in WWI" and it was reinstated. The lede says  "He was known during the First World War for his negative stance against homosexuality" but this also is not strictly correct.  His worries were heightened becasue of the war, but a lot of the activitiy for which he is known happened just after the war (the trial, e.g.) and clearly his beliefs spanned decades -- did he ever renounce them?  So I don't think that the time-limiting phrase is helpful to readers.  How could this be better explained? BrainyBabe (talk) 16:10, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure he continued to think that homosexuality was immoral. Most people probably thought that at the time, so there's nothing unusual about that in itself. But what he is remembered for is the campaign during the war. It was all about the war since it was linked specifically to claims of German blackmail and enticement. Not including the WWI phrase makes that difficult to decipher. Paul B (talk) 16:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I see your point, but it's more than immorality. He thought homosexuality dangerous to the nation and worthy of campaigning about. So "negative stnace" is too weak.  HOw about "He was known for his campaigning against homosexuality, especially during WWI"? BrainyBabe (talk) 17:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The expresssion "known" refers to someone being "known" by the general public for something, during a time. Examples: "the limits of the known world"; "a musician known throughout the world"; "a known criminal". While his political positions were being presented by the public media, he was "known" (by the public).  Later, as the conflicts died down and he eventually became elderly, he ceased being generally "known".  The fact that he remained known to homosexuals and war historians doesn't mean that he was "known" by the world. Thus, the original version ("He was known during the First World War for his negative stance against homosexuality") is more accurate than the revision. Bushcutter (talk) 01:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The timing of his beliefs 

message: Hang them all. When is the hyphen vandalism going to stop????? Pemberton-Billing was his name, YESINCLUDING THE S***ING HYPHEN. This is not the only case opf hyphen vandalism I have come across. It is far too widespread and nmust be stopped!!!!!!!!!!
Hyphens in nouns should not be removed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Petebutt (talk) 11:13, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: DO NOT make changes like this without discussing on Talk. What evidence do you have that his name was hyphenated? Often hyphens are inaccurately used in names that were not hypenated. His name appears unhyphenated in many sources, including the Dictionary of National Biography   For example William Holman Hunt, whose name is not William Holman-Hunt. His daughter included his middle name as her surname, so she is Diana Holman-Hunt. There are many cases like this leading to confusion and misplacing of hyphens. It is more like "vandalism" to unilaterally change an article without discussing it and without evidence. Leave the article in the form in which it was stable, then raise the issue for discussion. Paul B (talk) 11:55, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul - the second of your references admits that "Pemberton-Billing" rather than just "Billing" is "very often seen"! I believe I have seen both forms in different texts - for me the D.N.B. is the clincher. What about reverting to the state it was before Petebutt made his (no doubt good faith) changes, while making sure we have a redirect from the (quite common) hyphenated form?  Unless we get a contrary consensus in the next day or two I will do this, if no one else does.--Soundofmusicals (talk) 12:33, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure they were good faith, but the hysterical tone of his comments and accusations of vandalism were not appropriate. I know the hyphenated version is often seen. It is with Holman Hunt too. That's why I checked this whole issue out before I created the article. The problem is that anyone who hasn't bothered to make a proper check can just move a page without a by-your-leave but it may now be a real hassle to move it back. Paul B (talk) 12:50, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

text: OK, I've moved it back. I thought there already was a redirect from the hyphenated version, but it turns out that the redirect was Pemberton-Billing not Noel Pemberton-Billing. I'll also add the alternative spelling. Paul B (talk) 14:16, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: NPB is hyphenless in CF Andrews and E B Morgan Supermarine Aircraft since 1914 London:Putnam, 1987. , and in this 1913 article in Flight and this 1916 report of a parliamentary debate, but he seems to have referred to himself with a hyphen by 1940 as shown here and here. Nigel Ish (talk) 18:01, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, he seems to have liked adding the hyphen. I guess he thought it made him look more distinguished. It was quite a common affectation in those days to seem more aristocratic. But his actual surname was certainly "Billing", and that's how he appears in official documents. Paul B (talk) 18:12, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hyphen Vandals 

message: When did he stand down as an MP?  One source says 1923, but most information says 1921.  Note that there was a general election in 1922. PatGallacher (talk) 13:23, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The current source is just a webpage, albeit a basically reliable one. But if there are better sources that are consistent in saying 1921 we can just change it. But we need the sources. Paul B (talk) 13:39, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

text: There are several on google books   The Parliamentary Gazette for 1921 says "HERTFORD. AW Rear-Admiral M. F.C Sueter 12,329 CoU Sir Hildred Carlile ... 5,553 Majority 6,776 (June 16, 1921, in the place of Mr. Pemberton Billing, resigned)". Paul B (talk) 15:18, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  When did he stand down? 

message: Someone interjected this apparent (unsigned) request for information onto this page - unfortuneately overwriting a good deal old text in the process -
::CAN anyone shed any light on this please. It is an unusual name and I wonder if there is a connection with the subject of this article. Around about 1958 to 1960, in Scarborough, UK, Stephen Joseph, the actor and director, had a housekeeper called "Mrs Pemberton Billing  (I don't know about the hypen, whether or not).  She was known as "PB". She made cakes for the interval refreshments which were sold during performances.
::Sorry I forgot to log in.  I am  alien-corn.
I have restored the old version of the page - but append this (without comment). --Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:41, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsigned Interjection 

message: Unfortunately this article suffered from a reliance on later perceptions and political categorization rather than actual statements about the subject.
I have removed the falsifications that he 'campaigned against homosexuality' because he did not. 
Likewise insinuations that he was anti-semitic are again unsubstantiated - he did for a very short time make use of two individuals who would be noted for such views and I have added that in for clarity. 
I suspect he will be stuck with the term 'right wing' because of his expressions of patriotism but he does not appear to have any ideological tenets that fit the category of being exclusively right wing, nor did he associate in any meaningful way with right wing groups or individuals throughout his life, he was clearly an outsider.
If it were not for the re-discovery of the Maud Allan libel case, he would, at best, be merely a footnote in the history of British (military) aviation.
--JHumphries (talk) 14:25, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  2018 re-edit