Talk:Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece

message: Regarding the year in which this occurred: my understanding from my reading is that there was a first plebiscite in July 1973 held by the Colonels' junta, and then another in Dec 1974 held by Karamanlis' government. Both were on the question of abolishing the monarchy in favor of a republic. Both are referred to in the article, although for Dec 1974, the word referendum is used instead of plebiscite.  I am changing the date given in the article for the first plebiscite back to 1973.  LiniShu 04:25, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plebiscite on abolition of the monarchy 

message: I really think this should have been put to a vote before being moved.  As Pavlos was born in 1967, and the monarchy wasn't completely abolished until 1974, wouldn't he have been Crown Prince then, adn that is the title that most people know him as.  Prsgoddess187 23:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move 

message: When did Constantine II cease to be King of the Hellenes: At the top of the article he's listed as King from 1964-73, yet later in the article the monarchy is declared abolished in 1974. Further more in the Constantine II of Greece article, Constantine is listed as King from 1964-74. From 1973-74 ,did or didn't Greece have a King? it can't be both ways, can it? GoodDay 22:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Greek democracy when restored opted to accept the 1973 republic as having a de-facto existence and used its presidency, rather than automatically returning the King to the throne, until a referendum on the monarchy could be held. It was technically a questionable act: if the Regime of the Colonels was illegal, then so was its republic, meaning that the King was still king. But they feared that Constantine, who was a political numbskull, would meddle if he was allowed back. Even worse his presence might sway the vote in favour of the monarchy. So they kept him in exile illegally while they held the referendum and allowed the presidency to remain on in the interim. Constantine II was democratically deposed in 1974 but lost the throne in 1973. You could say that de facto he ceased to be king in 1973, even if de jure he was king until 1974. On balance, given that it matches reality, it makes more sense to say that he lost the throne in 1973 and had it legally confirmed in 1974. So 1973 is probably the best date to use. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 22:43, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, 1973 is probably the best date to use. GoodDay 22:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1973 or 1974 

message: It seems very odd that she would be styled "HRH Marie-Chantal, the Crown Princess Pavlos" ... shouldn't she be styled, as per typical royal form, "HRH The Crown Princess Pavlos" or "HRH The Crown Princess of Greece"? Mowens35 15:34, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe since the Greek monarchy has been deposed, calling her The Crown Princess (Pavlos) would seem to some a little misleading.  As Pavlos was at one time The Crown Prince of Greece, this title for him is correct.  On the Greek Royal Family's webpage (POV to be sure) she is titled "HRH Crown Princess Pavlos", see it here. But that is only my opinion, please do not take it for fact. Prsgoddess187 01:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wife's Title 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:News glykxboorg.jpg

message: I moved this to Pavlos, but  has moved it back to Paul. He is referred to as Pavlos on the royal family's own website, and I have rarely, if ever, seen him actually called Paul in English. My computer is not letting me use search engines (pretty sure I have some kind of spyware right now) so I cannot go look for myself, but I believe he's better known as Crown Prince Pavlos. His siblings are at the articles corresponding to their Greek titles. His father is only at Constantine because that is what he goes by, instead of the Greek Konstantinos. But Pavlos I have only ever seen referred to as Pavlos, not Paul. Morhange (talk) 10:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Any use of a royal title by a former monarchy is known as a "Pretender" title. To be allowed entrance into Greece all former royals must be acknowledged officially using a legal surname for entrance.   Pavlos von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg is the former Prince of Greece's legal name.  It's rediculous and incorrect to say King Charles of Britain and America as it is to say Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece. 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:1184:402D:8474:7E71 (talk) 05:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: That's obvious garbage. Constantine II died in Greece. His funeral was in Greece and his entire family attended. Pavlos lives in Greece now. They are obviously allowed to enter the country despite not using a surname. "Pavlos von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg" is not his legal name. He is not called that on any official document, anywhere. DrKay (talk) 07:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: To second this, not that long ago, when Pavlos son graduated from a college in America, his certificate read "Achileas of Greece", not "Achileas von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg" or whatever other ridiculously long name is claimed to be the family's surname. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 10:05, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: I would like to note the following: The title "KING OF GREECE" belongs to the descendants of King Otto - the Wittelsbachs. The current descendants of George I of the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg line of the House of Oldenburg have a right to the royal title of King of the Hellenes. They are NOT entitled to the royal title King of Greece, even if often referred to as such.81.132.186.249 (talk) 22:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We believe you. GoodDay (talk) 00:40, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: KING OF GREECE

message: From Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece to Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece.  is by far the most common way this individual is referred to with 171,000 Google hits, versus 958 for "Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece". It is also the way his own office refers to him in press releases. Putting the given name first is a reference book convention designed to allow names to be alphabetized more easily. This isn't an issue on Wiki, so we can follow the common usage as it is in ordinary text. "of Greece" is both a useful disambiguator and part of his long form style (Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece, Prince of Denmark). Kauffner (talk) 01:53, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oppose - Consistency matters. The title of this article certainly shouldn't be inconsistent with the titles of the articles about his cousins (Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark, Victoria, Crown Princess of Sweden, Haakon, Crown Prince of Norway, Alois, Hereditary Prince of Liechtenstein, Guillaume, Hereditary Grand Duke of Luxembourg, etc) and his other peers. Surtsicna (talk) 10:46, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no consistency now. The other Greek princes and princess all have their titles first: Prince George of Greece and Denmark, Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark, Princess Maria-Olympia of Greece and Denmark. The cousins you list are from all different countries and it's just happenstance if their titles appear in matching form -- they don't constitute a peer group. The other heir apparents have widely differing styles. Kauffner (talk) 13:34, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Prince George of Greece and Denmark does not have a substantive title. Pavlos does have a substantive title. The consensus is to put substantive titles after the name. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). Per naming conventions and consistency, Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece is the right title. Surtsicna (talk) 14:19, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

text: Oppose per Surtsicna and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). - dwc lr (talk) 15:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

text: I have no opinion about the move as presented, but I strongly oppose translating the name of living people, or even any 20th & 21st century person. People have legal names nowadays and it is not appropriate (or polite) to translate them. This man's name is Pavlos and can never be given correctly as Paul. SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:59, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

text: Oppose Per Surtsnica. Seven Letters 04:02, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: 1. The long section in the introduction about his relationship to Queen Victoria strikes me as trivial and very Anglocentric.  I am moving it to the section "Ancestry" for now.
2. A huge percentage of this article deals with things that are quite well dealt with and more properly dealt with in the entry on his father.  While there is no doubt that the sequences of events that led to the abolition of monarchy in Greece are relevant to his life, there is too much of it.  This reader was left scratching his head wondering if I had accidentally gone to the wrong tab in my browser. For the moment, I won't do anything about that, to see if there are varying opinions or ideas about how we might better handle this.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:03, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Having received no objection, I am now going to remove most of the material that doesn't directly pertain to Prince Pavlos, being an accounting of the events that led to his father being removed as monarch.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:31, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two problems with this article 

message: A "Titles and styles" section is common with many articles about royalty.  It is useful when there is official use and that official use is generally recognised.  However, in the case of Pavlos, there is significant inconsistency in usage (by the Greek republic, by other royal courts, by newspapers, etc.)  The section provides three versions of his name/title after 1973, but this does not include the name he used when he was in college in the United States.  I suggest that the section be removed. Noel S McFerran (talk) 03:34, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Titles and styles 

message: Can an admin instigate a requested move from Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece to Pavlos of Greece- I can't put the template on the page. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:55, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think you need to edit the article for this. Just follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves. Regards — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:10, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, got this confused with a merge/split, which does require the article to be tagged. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:42, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected edit request 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The Honours section was completely unsourced. The citations lead to photos. The editor who added these probably suggests that since Pavlos is wearing the insignias he has been awarded the honours. That is an interpretation. In fact at least the Order of the Phoenix and the Order of the Redeemer are still honours awared by the President of the Hellenic Republic and not from the ex-King. I have removed the section. If it is to be added again, three should be a real citation for each honour. - geraki (talk) 11:59, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Honours 

message: An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Paul of of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gluecksburg. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  Regards, SONIC678 04:29, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Paul of of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gluecksburg" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Paul of of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  Regards, SONIC678 14:40, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Paul of of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: Monarchy was abolished. He is a cos-player at best. 79.129.145.18 (talk) 20:43, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Understood, but "crown prince of Greece" was the highest title he ever held. Thus the reason we had it in the intro, let alone why this article is the name it is. Otherwise, the page would be called Pavlos Glücksburg or Paul Glucksburg. GoodDay (talk) 22:35, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Irrelevant. The Greek constitution (Article 6, Paragraph 7) clearly states that no royal titles are to be given to any persons in the Greek state. The article's title is clearly biased in favor of the monarchy. The Greek article references this person as "Former Successor", so why not import this standard? 45.139.213.31 (talk) 11:47, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No titles were given to Pavlos since that line was written. Pavlos was born prior to the change in law, so he already had the title. Piratesswoop (talk) 01:45, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  He is not a prince 

message: It is not very nice to address them as princes of Greece since gmGreece has no longer a king. 2A02:1388:8D:F863:0:0:5523:AE8C (talk) 17:44, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: well now that King Constantine II has died, Pavlos is now (de jure) King Paul II of Greece Rhyddfrydol2 (talk) 18:40, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: He is not the de jure King. That implies that the abolition of the monarchy was unlawful. Not even the Royal Family claims this. Pavlos can use the title Crown Prince as a courtesy until his death, or he can claim the title King as a pretender, but that doesn't make him the de jure monarch. The President of the Republic of Greece is both the de jure and de facto Head of State.--Vabadus91 (talk) 03:19, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The page hasn't been (and won't be) moved to Paul II of Greece, so there's little to worry about. GoodDay (talk) 00:18, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

text: Fine, he's the titular King of the Hellenes, with the regnal name in pretence, Paul II. Titular meaning that he would be king if the monarchy were to be restored. GandalfXLD (talk) 09:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

text: He is not King of anything, his title will remain Crown Prince of Greece for the rest of his life (unless the monarchy in Greece were to be restored). Oleryhlolsson (talk) 00:52, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: He is the titular King of the Hellenes. GandalfXLD (talk) 09:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not until he claims that title. Leka never reigned in Albania but he claimed the title "HM King Leka II" in pretence; Alexander hasn't reigned in Serbia but he claims the title "HRH Crown Prince Alexander"; Margareta has never reigned in Romania (and wasn't even the heiress presumptive under the House laws in force when the monarchy was extant) but she is "HM Margareta, Custodian of the Romanian Crown". There is no consistency in how non-reigning royals are styled, and there seems to be a general acceptance that they are whatever they style themselves (e.g. Margareta, who uses a unique and hitherto non-existent "title"). Pavlos is not the titular King until he calls himself "King Pavlos II of the Hellenes", which he is entitled to do and could theoretically be crowned as such by the monarchist Orthodox Church. There is no indication that he is now styling himself thus. 79.71.87.243 (talk) 21:39, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greece has no Royal Family 

message: Is this correct? There is no such house as the "Royal House of Greece"; it's the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. The House of Glücksburg has a Head in Christoph, Prince of Schleswig-Holstein. To my knowledge, the Greek part of the family/royal house has never had a separate name or branch. It's just part of the House of Glücksburg, and its head is not Crown Prince Pavlos. Vabadus91 (talk) 23:31, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps Wikipedia needs to address how to deal with former royal families. GoodDay (talk) 00:19, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

text: TWO things. The titles as prince and princesses of Greece are destinct to this house, and is not shared with other branches of the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg line, and it is the head of the house that decides how to deal with these titles. Secondly, here at Wikipedia we tend to write, what the sources tells us, and not what we each as individuals thinks would be the "best" way to interpret the world, so if one or more independent and reliable sources tells us, that Crown Prince Pavlos now is head of the royal house of Greece, and it dosen't matter whether they actually rule a country or not they are still a 'royal house', then that is what he is - the head of the house. Additionally your statement "There is no such house as "The Royal House of Greece"" is only backed by your other statement "To my knowledge" and is not supported by any relevant sources. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 00:45, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: How can I support the non-existence of something with sources? Negatives cannot be proven; they just "aren't". I cannot prove Boris Johnson does not claim to be the Grand Duke of Cumbria, but we deduce this to be true based on the lack of him claiming such a thing. We go on what we do know, namely: (i) that the Greek Royal Family belongs to the House of Glücksburg and (ii) that the Head of the House of Glücksburg is Christoph, Prince of Schleswig-Holstein, not Crown Prince Pavlos. You need to prove a positive, namely that there is such a thing as the "Royal House of Greece". I can find no proof of this. Vabadus91 (talk) 19:15, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: A reference of him being the new head of the royal family of Greece was added to this article 15 January 2023 04:08. I intended to add a reference on the same matter in English as well, but the Best reference in English I found at the time was from one of those source that Wikipedia dosen't wish we should use in this encyclopedia. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 00:36, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Head of the Royal House of Greece" 

message: Apologists for the naming of this article as “Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece”, tell us that in accordance with WP policy, we have to use the naming convention adopted by reliable sources. So where, pray, are these reliable sources? The first two pages of Google results after googling "Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece" (with the quotation marks) only contain one link that I would regard as a RS, and that is the Daily Mail, a borderline RS at best.
And as for the “they are entitled to continue their use of their titles” line, even the official family website www.greekroyalfamily.gr has not employed the moniker “of Greece” since 2012 at least. Constantine is described as “King Constantine” without the phrase “of Greece”, Pavlos is plain “Prince Pavlos”, Marie-Chantel is simply “Princess Marie-Chantal”; the equivalent is also true in the Greek version of the site. (Strangely, at the time of writing, the site does not mention the death of Constantine.) Incidentally, Constantine described himself at the time of his coronation as Βασιλεύς των Ελλήνων or King of the Hellenes, not King of Greece.
I think it is incumbent on those who wish to retain the use of the article title “Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece“, to provide reliable sources that describe him with those words. Failing that, I agree with those editors who propose that the death of Constantine presents an opportunity to move the article to something less contentious.StefanosPavlos (talk) 20:04, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Reliable sources - what reliable sources?

message: The Greek people through a plebiscite abolished monarchy since 1974. There are no princes in Greece, so why wikipedia keeps referring to him like that? why doesn't wikipedia respect the will of the Greek people? 79.167.179.167 (talk) 12:48, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There are there crown princes left in Europe originating from countries that now either dosen't exist any more or where the country abolished the monarchy during the lifetime of the crown prince in question. They are The Crown Prince of Yugoslavia, The Crown Prince of Italy and The Crown Prince of Greece in addition to this, there are three former crown princes in Asia. What these former crown princes have in common is, that they got their titles while their fathers still where rulers of their respective countries. They hold these titles as personal titles (not indicating that they have in fact any legal rights in the former kingdom of theirs) and can do so as a courtesy of the international community thanks to an agreement from 1815. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 15:44, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Am i violating international agreements by not accepting pavlos being called a crown prince? 79.167.179.167 (talk) 17:34, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you are not, but your personal preferences has little or nothing to do with the way we administrer the content of an internet encyclopedia like this. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 20:20, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Total disrespect of the Greek people will. 

message: AlexMargrita (talk) 14:10, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 15:51, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

text: how more clear could one be? there's no king/prince/princess/whatever nobility title could one think of in Greece. No matter how people from countries that still have monarchy (especially uk) call him, he is not a crown prince of greece, no such thing exists. 79.167.179.167 (talk) 15:56, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2023 

message: The Greek-language Wikipedia has the best solution to the title of the article: Παύλος τέως Διάδοχος της Ελλάδας - Pavlos, former Crown Prince of Greece. We should follow their lead over here, too.StefanosPavlos (talk) 18:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: ''former''

message: In References, as all heads of former ruling families, put the title Titular King of the Hellenes 178.135.0.1 (talk) 08:19, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  In References 

message: There have already been discussions about this. These are not birth categories. A person being born in a place and leaving immediately as a baby does not qualify as being "from" that place. This is how the entire category tree is structured, and there won't be an exception for this article. Antondimak (talk) 09:45, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Also Tatoi is not in Athens under the definition used in the tree. Antondimak (talk) 09:49, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "from" category 

message: Those that support that pavlos should be referred to as crown prince of Greece keep mentioning a treaty that allows them to keep their titles. Could someone point me to that treaty (and which article of that treaty)? 79.167.189.17 (talk) 12:24, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There were "a ton" of treaties made in 1814 & 1815 - aparantly it is one of those(?) - I have tried to read The Treaty of Vienna, but it's not that one. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 12:36, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Smacks of complete bluff, I think. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:07, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  International treaty allowing them to keep their titles. 

message: Hey @User:DrKay, thanks for fixing the vandalism; I was actually on my way to doing it myself, but you beat me to it! Should we warn the IP or? Therealscorp1an (talk) 20:42, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes: done now, thanks. DrKay (talk) 20:58, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

text: vandalism? if only you showed some respect to the will of Greek people, no one would need to resort to vandalism. 79.167.175.190 (talk) 21:52, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: This makes no sense. Wikipedia rightfully removed the German royals/nobility titles. Why is he and his family still allowed to be titled? They are not royals, no matter how much they scream that they are. Unfriendnow (talk) 01:43, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Technically they are royals; you cannot stop being a royal even if you lose your throne. And they are still princes of Denmark, descended from Christian IX and Pavlos' aunt being the Queen of Denmark. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 05:04, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: How are they Princes of Denmark only because of the fact they are descended from Christian IX? where is the law/decree that states that??? also It doesn't matter if his aunt is the Queen of Denmark, that doesn't make them royalty. Greece has got rid of their royal family, they are not "technically" royals. Unfriendnow (talk) 20:18, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

text: He was the crown prince of Greece. Just like Wilhelm, Crown Prince of Germany, Ernest Augustus, Crown Prince of Hanover, Georg, Crown Prince of Saxony, etc were real crown princes. We don't remove titles from real title holders. DrKay (talk) 07:08, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Key word "WAS" He simply isn't anymore. Why not use "ex crown prince of Greece" Unfriendnow (talk) 20:19, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Because we use common names for article titles per policy. Google search for "ex crown prince of Greece" throws up 0 reliable sources relating to Pavlos. DrKay (talk) 20:35, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

text: He was born "crown prince of Greece" & we use the highest title, in these bios. Also, Paul is a Danish royal. GoodDay (talk) 23:40, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: How is Paul a Danish royal, where is the legal law/decree/letters patent stating so? Unfriendnow (talk) 00:39, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: He's a direct descendant of King Christian IX of Denmark, through both his parents (Constantine II of Greece, a great-great-grandson & Anne-Marie, a great-great-granddaughter of Christian). However's Paul's mother, his siblings & his children are barred from the Danish throne. GoodDay (talk) 01:00, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't make him a Danish Prince. By that logic Margrethe's grandsons would still be princes. Unfriendnow (talk) 20:12, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really. The removal of their titles is specific for them. It's not a blanket removal of all descendants of Christian IX. DrKay (talk) 20:26, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Where is the legal law/decree/letters patent stating so? Unfriendnow (talk) 21:12, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: See all relevant official documents and announcements, e.g. "as of 1 January 2023, His Royal Highness Prince Joachim’s descendants...". DrKay (talk) 17:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: So how does that justify calling him a “crown prince of Greece” in the title? Only whatever Danish title he has would be appropriate. Zenomonoz (talk) 11:23, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: "Because we use common names for article titles per policy. ... DrKay (talk) 20:35, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why does he and his family still have their titles?