Talk:Brahma Kumaris/Archive 2

message: In order to illustrate the Wikipedia article on the BKWSU, we propose to reference original teaching posters as inspired and authenticated by God Shiva and Brahma Baba.
We have listed the following images but these require a correct copyright to be assigned to them. This raises an interesting dilemma ;
* Who owns the copyright to God's works or God's versions? Are they covered by limited, proprietory licenses or are they open and unlimited?
To our minds, the answer has to be no one. They must surely be in the public domain, or Copyleft, as they have been given freely by God, and Prajapita, to humanity in order that eacha nd every individuall may use them to earn their own inheritance. In a sense, God Shiva appears to support the GNU 'General Public License' principle.
Following on from this ;
* What is the accredited creation date for The Cycle, The Ladder, The Trimurti, and the Lakshmi and Narayan concepts?
Presumably the individual artists gave over their personal rights to the images, as the ideas were not theirs in the first place, but perhaps you can clarify what rights Shiva Baba - or the BKWSU - exert over Godly Intellectual Property in your role in the Global IT Team.  
* Lastly, if possible, we would like to give proper credit to the original artists.
We await your advises with concern.
Thank you.
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bklandn_A4.jpg
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bkcycle_A4.jpg
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bkladder_A4.jpg
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bktree_A4.jpg
Brahmakumaris.info 12:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Godly Intellectual Property. 

message: In order to illustrate the Wikipedia article on the BKWSU, we propose to reference original teaching posters as inspired and authenticated by God Shiva and Brahma Baba.
We have listed the following images but these require a correct copyright to be assigned to them. This raises an interesting dilemma ;
* Who owns the copyright to God's works or God's versions? Are they covered by limited, proprietory licenses or are they open and unlimited?
To our minds, the answer has to be no one. They must surely be in the public domain, or Copyleft, as they have been given freely by God, and Prajapita, to humanity in order that eacha nd every individuall may use them to earn their own inheritance. In a sense, God Shiva appears to support the GNU 'General Public License' principle.
Following on from this ;
* What is the accredited creation date for The Cycle, The Ladder, The Trimurti, and the Lakshmi and Narayan concepts?
Presumably the individual artists gave over their personal rights to the images, as the ideas were not theirs in the first place, but perhaps you can clarify what rights Shiva Baba - or the BKWSU - exert over Godly Intellectual Property in your role in the Global IT Team.  
* Lastly, if possible, we would like to give proper credit to the original artists.
We await your advises with concern.
Thank you.
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bklandn_A4.jpg
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bkcycle_A4.jpg
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bkladder_A4.jpg
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bktree_A4.jpg
Brahmakumaris.info 15:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Godly Intellectual Property. 

message: User Riveros11 or Avyakt7 enters into this discussion have been allegedly kicked off a discussion forum. He had allegedly been attempting to reveal personal information about another person he had dug off the internet in a menacing manner, presumably intended to win an argument. 
As a cult member of this group we are documenting, immediately he commences exactly the strategy attacking me and attempting to connect me with this other individual. Obviously, a strategy of intimidation used by Cults like the Scientologist to frighten individuals off from revealing their truths to the public eye, he now engages a 'buddy' to help him.
The Wikipedia protects individuals and encourages discussion. Its official policy is "no personal attacks" and within personal attacks is stated,  "Threats or actions which expose other Wikipedia editors to political, religious or other persecution by government, their employer or any others. Violations of this sort may result in a block for an extended period of time which may be applied immediately by any sysop upon discovery". So, in line with policy, I am formaly requesting you to decist from personal attacks and to remove any smears, allegations or confusions you are attacking me with.
As an example of which, I would like to illustrate. Riveros11 or Avyakt7 has an issue with Destruction and Transformation. If we take his user names, those subjects and his known affiliation with this cult and put them into Google, within a few steps it reveals 
* his proper name
* his place of work
* his department and position [or at least a recent one]
* his professional qualifications
* two telephones
* work email address
* his degree of involvement with the BKWSU
Within a few steps, one is about 70% on the way to identity theft.
Now, given the current state of tension, fear and security paranoia within the USA; BKWSU teacher Avyakt7 writes on more than on forum, "We, will destroy our planet. We have the means to do it now. Our technology “know how” have created the bombs. Many countries have them. The bombs will be used". Now, it is also policy that, "membership of an organization does not prohibit an indivdual from contributing". But from this, we could easily say Avyakt7 to be;
* a recruiting leader of an extremist Eastern cult involved in psychic channelling and mind control
* a cult that believes in the destruction of free society and that it is agent to destroying free society 
* a leader who demands total surrender of mnd, body and wealth
* a leader that teaches that "the world is a haystack ... it will burn" to "make Heaven on Earth" for his 900,000 virgin followers
* a group that operates numerous fronts and is infiltrating politics and power internationally
* cult members of whom chop and change representing these various fronts in public
You can see how a malicious individual could use such easily gleaned personal information in a personal attack. Now, obviously, I have deliberately constructed an extreme scenario here - even if the citations are there to support it - but what does the general public really know about what is going on inside the mind of Raja Yoga / BKWSU? What even do the neophyte followers know?
I suggest that if we meet in the Wikipedia, we observe the Wiki's policies. When in Rome ... and all that. 195.82.106.244 13:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anonymity, Cults and personal attacks. 

message: It must be noted that the BKWSU goes to great length to hide or refuse access to their inner teaching and is engaged in a process of re-writing them. However, far too much remains in the public domain to make this successful. The following references are not exhaustive or full detailed but significant enough to remove any doubt in a third party. A Sakar Murli is considered by the BKWSU to be the authentic word of God where no other scripture is. It is said by the BKWSU to be God himself speaking through the medium of Lekhraj Kirpalani. An Avyakt Murli is said to be the combined form of a dead Lekhraj Kirpalani and God Shiva speaking through the channel or medium of BK Gulzar. The scriptures are the highest authories within BKWSU teachings, excuding the Murli team that re-writes them to suit the time and the Global PR team that publically denies them.
* Nuclear War
The following links offer a direct and easily verifiable creference of BKWSU teachings of the destruction of a Nuclear War between Russia and America. Brahma Baba, the medium of Shiva Baba and founder of the BKWSU, had so much of faith in this predication that he signed such picture a declaration was made by the institution and images sent out to the Government of India and other dignitaries notifying them of the coming Destruction of the World and the establishment of Heaven. One can see clearly at the top two cats with human heads wearing military hats. One Russian with the Hammer and Sickle Red Flag, the other American with the Stars and Stripes. These images remain at the organisations Indian headquarters.
See; http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//5/51/Catsandtree.jpg, http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//f/f2/Cycle_and_Trimurti_A4.jpg
"Look! The Science-Proud European Yadavas will destroy one and other in this internaional Atomic War (Mahabharata) like 5,000 years ago"
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//2/2d/Tree.jpg  and "Adi Dev" by Jagdish Chander referenced in article.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6471058539715764200&q=Brahma+Kumaris Google Video clip of BKWSU promotion video including Destruction/Nuclear war.
* Civil war ;
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/09/01_Revised
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//1/13/Lakshmi_and_Narayan_A4.jpg
and from the BKWSU own website
" Dada also saw how the death came slower through wars and civil wars, culminating in an awesome wave of natural catastrophes: floods and tidal waves, earthquakes of every kind wreaking havoc on the scarred face of the earth. Dada began to tremble uncontrollably upon witnessing the scenes of this great world wide destruction. Humans and animals were running wildly about, trying to save their lives, to escape from the jaws of death. But there was no escape. The wail of horror, the rivers of blood and pus, the panic and the desperation, and then, the final death."
* http://www.brahmakumaris.com/aboutus/divinevisions.htm
* Population of Golden Age is 900,000 ;
"All become worthy of claiming a right to liberation-in-life, but there is so much difference between the 8 jewels, the 108 victorious jewels, the 16,000 and then the 900,000. There is a rosary of 16,000 and also of 108. In the 108, there are also the eight special ones. All become beads of the rosary. Both types would be called beads. Even the beads of the rosary of 16,000 will say in happiness and intoxication: My Baba and my kingdom. The difference is between claiming a right to the royal throne or a royal status, a right to the royal family and a right to being in connection with the royal family."
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Avyakt_Murli_2001/01/26_Revised
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Avyakt_Murli_2003/01/18_Revised.
It would be interesting to request a copy of BK Dadi Janki's 2006 class stating that the 900,000 would be ready this year.
* Only BK Raja Yoga followers going to heaven ;
" Baba has said: At the time of destruction, those whose intellect has no love will be destroyed. All of them will be destroyed and only you will remain to claim victory. You are establishing a kingdom. "
* Only religious group to have God teaching them direct ;
" The Supreme Soul Himself says: I enter this one's body (Lakhraj Kirpalani) in which his own soul is also present. I enter him ... It is only to the children who have become Brahmins that the Father speaks. He would not tell anyone else. He only loves His children"
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2004/05/06_Revised
" Om Shanti. The Spiritual Father (Shiva) sits here and explains to you spiritual children (BKs) ... He says: O children, I have incarnated in this one (Lekhraj Kirpalani) and, through him, I tell you the secrets ... Only the one Father (Shiva Baba) explains this. The path of devotion has been nothing but a waste of time. ... Baba now explains: Those worldly gurus do not grant you salvation. Only the one Father (Shiva Baba) leads you to salvation ... "
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/01/22_Revised
* External donations; actually I agree. We need evidence to prove the BKWSU have EVER given any money to any one else or else that should be removed.
* Maryadas or prinicples ; http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Image:Maryadas_chart.jpg
* Avoiding controversial issues ; see comparison of Indian and Internal website as referenced in topic, Also typcial statement by Global Chief of PR and MultiMedia, B.K. Karuna in Moscow Times August 8th, 2006 issue, stating that;s
“The university once taught that the current age, or cycle, would end in nuclear war between the Soviet Union and the United States. This teaching was dropped after the fall of the Soviet Union, said Brother Karuna Shebby, the organization’s chief spokesman, said by telephone from the group’s Mount Abu headquarters in the Indian state of Rajasthan.”
in contradiction to teachings of destruction and nuclear war referenced above. http://brahmakumaris.info/blog/?p=100
* World population 5,500,000 ; actually this has gone up from 5 Billion, to 5.5 and now 6 Billion as the Sakar Murlis have been re-edited by the BK Murli Team.
See treaching poster referenced above. " Population of at the end of Iron Age 500 crore " Bottom of http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg. 
* BK becoming angels : " You cannot experience sorrow by this great Destruction because you become angels. " http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/09/01_Revised
* Rape by partner of BK because BK refused sex ; please check reference with BK Dr Nirmala in Australia, I refuse to name names in such a personal case.
* Child sex abuse at BKWSU Indian Headquaters ( Madhuban and Dehli at least) ; please check reference with BK Jayanti or Janki in UK, I refuse to name names in such a personal case.
* Destruction of World in 1975-6 ;
"Destgruction of viscious Iron age World in 10 years" ; http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg [ published in 1960s ]
* Becoming worship worthy Gods ;
" you Brahmins are the highest, the top-knot. Only these Confluence Aged Brahmins become deities. First of all, the Brahmins are even higher than the deities. The top-knot is the highest. You brahmins worship the deities, and you consider yourselves to be worshippers and them to be worthy of worship. You can explain this to those worshipper-priest brahmins in the temples. You are the true Confluence Aged Brahmins. You are the mouth-born creation of Brahma. You are now becoming deities."
"This donation and charity performed in a second through a powerful stage will make you worthy of being worshipped and remembered for half the Cycle."
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/02/07_Revised
"Then, in terms of being worthy of worship, your worship is so great. No righteous soul or great soul is worshipped in the right way like you deity souls are. "
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Avyakt_Murli_2004/02/04_Revised
* Becoming worship worthy Angels ;
"When Destruction takes place, they will understand that God has come. Then, those to whom you gave the message will remember: Who were those angels dressed in white? You also see angels in the subtle region, do you not?" - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2004/05/05_Revised
"You cannot experience sorrow by this great Destruction because you become angels. " - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/09/01_Revised
" Then, at the final moments, you angels are guaranteed to become deities. If you want to become like the Father, then the Father is incorporeal and an angel. To become like Father Brahma means to stay in the angelic stage." - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Avyakt_Murli_2003/01/18_Revised
"The Father is now once again creating the land of angels. " - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/06/07_Revised
* Heidi Fittkau-Garthe ; see the references already given below article ...
: * Self belief as Angels
: " The consciousness is that "I am a Brahmin who is going to become an angel' ...  Now bring that consciousness in a practical form ... When giving visions of your angelic form you should make a special plan to make the service through the mind more powerful. Together with words, it is service through the mind that will enable the message to reach very far away. Just as nowadays, flying saucers are seen, so too, your angelic form will be visible all around and there will be the sound emerging, "Who are these beings who are circling all around?' People will begin to research into this and will have visions of you coming down from above. They should realize that it is these Brahma Kumars and Brahma Kumaris who are giving visions of the angelic form. You should now create such an upheaval. You should practice taking your subtle body on a tour. At the present time, it is most essential that you practice traveling with your internal subtle body. You should practice this so that everyone is able to see this in a practical form and everyone comes together. Others should experience that These are the same angels who came to us.' They should start searching around for these angels. If so many of you all begin to circle around like angels, then what will happen? Everyone's attention will automatically be drawn. So now, together with the corporeal form, it is essential to serve in the subtle form. In the early morning hours of Nectar, you should become detached from your body and you should circle around this way." Avyakt Murli 22/2/84 195.82.106.244 04:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prediction of Nuclear & Civil War, the 900,000, self-belief in being Angels etc 

message: This article, in accordance with wikipedia policies, much like the BK predict of the world, could be 90% wiped away. There are many, many facts claimed and almost no refferences. If no one adds refferences, it will eventually be paired down. Sethie 01:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Serious lack of citations

message: Hi Sethie.
I removed the citation notice from the BKWSU topic as it not required. If you want to raise specific questions, please first read throught the discussion archive and quoted references. Then, where there is serious lack of citations that has not been covered, raise here in detail first where they will be answered.
It is not at all clear whether your objections are philosophical, i.e. that this is not orthodox Hinduism, or specific to the BKs. If they are specific to the BKs, it would help to know what your knowledge of them is based on.
Frankly, given that your comment comes after a page of "easily checkable" references in line with Wiki policy, I must admit that your action has made a negative impression. Let's discuss this first. If your POV is on a passing acquaintance or mutual self interest, be cautious.
Thanks. 195.82.106.244 12:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Serious lack of reading previous citations given and archive