Talk:Lyrical abstraction/Archive 1

message: Thx for the great material -- but the history is told 4 or 5 overlapping times. Then it could use copyediting. More than this "pay it back by editing as i read" user can take on. "alyosha" (talk) 01:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  cleanup tag for american section 

message: artists without Wikipedia will be removed from the list--The general standard for inclusion in such a list is being important enough for an article.  Additionally, for each artist included there must be a specific reference that they do indeed belong primarily or substantially to the school. Many artists seem to be included here who are primarily abstract expressionists.   DGG (talk) 21:48, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: IMHO it is a somewhat ambiguous interconnected assembly of styles - painters like Paul Jenkins, Robert Motherwell, Cleve Gray, Norman Bluhm, Helen Frankenthaler, Sam Francis and others clearly fit all three categorizations. Abstract Expressionism, Color Field painting and Lyrical Abstraction which is indicated in the list. Names can be eliminated although IMO the artists all belong to the style...Modernist (talk) 21:57, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: which artists are to be included

message: Made changes to the article by reducing unreferenced opinions and combining references for clarity. (Salmon1 (talk) 13:17, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: reducing opinions and combining references for clarity

message: If anyone thinks someone belongs, either write an article, or provide enough information to show that as article would be acceptable according to WP:CREATIVE (the easiest way is paintings in major collections). Please check that for the ones who do have articles, there is a source stating that they worked significantly in this style at some phase of their career, or  that would mean that some painting described by a reliable sources as being in this style is in a major collection. I suggest this is the way to deal with the problem raised above, that artists often work in many styles.    I apologize for not getting back to this sooner.    DGG ( talk ) 15:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: removing artists without an articles

message: I chanced upon the following which may be useful for material, and also associates more artists with lyrical abstraction:
*De Kooning's final phase, described by art historian Gary Garrels as "lyrical abstraction," began in 1981
*GERHARD RICHTER,  through Jan. 9. Routinely considered one of the greatest painters alive today, Mr. Richter offers new work that is surprisingly uneven. It includes large pieces that suggest expertly made examples of 1970s Lyrical Abstraction
*David A. Lewis, Art, will present a paper titled, "More than Gorky's Muse - Corinne Michael West, the Lyrical Abstractions of a Painter-Poet" as a part of a symposium on pioneers of Abstract Expressionism on April 24. The day-long symposium is sponsored by the Hofstra University Museum in Long Island, N.Y. Largely forgotten until recently, Corinne Michael West (1908-1991) was closely associated with Arshile Gorky during the 1930s. In the 1940s and 1950s, West developed her own style of lyrical abstraction in response to Cubism and Surrealism, and to the philosophies of Henri Bergson and Jean-Paul Sartre,
*East, a quintessential example or 'summation' work of so-called Lyrical Abstraction, was acquired in 1974, less than a year after the National Gallery's spectacular purchase of Jackson Pollock's Blue Poles 1952. The 'pole' utilised by Seery in East, as Schjeldahl observed, provided references to Pollock's Blue Poles,  whereby the art historical debt of Lyrical Abstraction to Abstract Expressionism was captured in a dialogue in paint.
*In the 1970s, John Seery was at the forefront of a younger generation of painters associated with so-called Lyrical Abstraction. After the challenge of Minimalism and Conceptual art in the 1960s these artists were seen as reviving and reinvigorating a painterly 'tradition' in American art. In an article entitled 'The New Informalists' in 1970, the critic Carter Ratcliff argued that Seery, like a number of his contemporaries, had rejected the narrow trajectory of Greenbergian formalism to reinstate line and colour as material, as paint. This, Ratcliff felt, placed them 'after the "classic" color painters', such as Morris Louis or Jules Olitski, yet reinforced the connection with Abstract Expressionism of the 1940s and 1950s, Jackson Pollock in particular.
Ty 18:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: More material

message: *"Two paintings acquired since the founding donor's death exemplify the remarkable flowering of de Kooning's 'old-age style' of lyrical abstraction."
*"De Kooning's final phase, described by art historian Gary Garrels as "lyrical abstraction," began in 1981"
Ty 23:11, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: De Kooning

message: *Mark Rothko  Independent.UK.co. retrieved May 24, 2010.
The article emphasizes that during the late 1950s the American abstract expressionism and its representative in the show, Mark Rothko was the equivalent to the "French tachistes as Georges Mathieu" and to the work of their Cornish counterparts, the St Ives artists.
:"There is nothing in the Rothko display or the catalogue that dares to challenge the received orthodoxy that modern abstract art was made in America."
Rothko is not defined as a Lyrical Abstractioist painter. (Salmon1 (talk) 01:06, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation for Mark Rothko

message: *James Brooks Honolulu Academy of Art retrieved May 24, 2010 (Salmon1 (talk) 16:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Safari cannot open the page, citation for James Brooks

message: *NY Times obituary retrieved May 24, 2010.  The obituary states:
:”(James Brooks) known as a lyrical painter.”
 
* Artists' estates: reputations in trust
By Magda Salvesen, Diane Cousineau, p.69 Google books], retrieved May 27, 2010. James Brooks stated:
:”I think my whole tendency has been away from a fast-moving line either violent or lyrical into something that is slower and denser of more wandering and unknowing.”
The citation clearly determines that James Brooks did not consider himself a Lyrical Abstractionist painter. (Salmon1 (talk) 01:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Gorky and James Brooks should be re-included, probably de Kooning as well...Modernist (talk) 23:49, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Gorky and De Kooning (per refs above on this page). I don't see the material validating Brooks' inclusion. If it exists, please quote the relevant passage(s). "known as a lyrical painter" does not mean he is a lyrical abstraction painter. Ty 01:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Since James Brooks clearly states that :"his whole tendency has been away from.... lyrical" therefore there is no reason to list him as a Lyrical Abstractionist painter.(Salmon1 (talk) 00:39, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with that interpretation. Actually Brooks states above "I think my whole tendency has been away from a fast-moving line either violent or lyrical into something that is slower and denser of more wandering and unknowing.” Given the proximity to Jackson Pollock - his neighbor on Long Island the emphasis on line becomes more apparent as Brooks used areas and not lines in his paintings. The text that follows in the book says: "By 1948 Brooks' interest in synthetic cubism had evolved into a lyrical abstraction of stains, drips, and interpenetrating platelets of color." Clearly defining his work as lyrical abstraction...Modernist (talk) 16:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems to be clear enough that his work was, at least at a certain point, lyrical abstraction, so validating inclusion. Ty 17:42, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations for James Brooks

message: As to lyrical abstraction in general - it is a descriptive term characterizing a type of abstract painting related to Abstract Expressionism; in use since the 1940s. Gorky, Motherwell, Brooks, Gottlieb and others seen in context have been characterized as doing a type of painting described by some as lyrical abstraction. The second common use refers to the tendency attributed to paintings in Europe during the post-1945 period and as a way of describing several artists (mostly in France) whose works related to characteristics of American abstract expressionism. At the time (late 1940s)Paul Jenkins, Norman Bluhm, Sam Frances, Jules Olitski, Joan Mitchell, Ellsworth Kelly and numerous other American artists were living and working in Paris and other European cities. With the exception of Kelly all of those artists developed their versions of painterly abstraction that has been characterized at times as lyrical abstraction, tachisme, color field, and abstract expressionism. Finally in the late 1960s (partially as a response to minimal art, and the dogmatic interpretations by some to Greenbergian and Juddian formalism) many painters re-introduced painterly options into their works and the Whitney Museum and several other museums and institutions at the time formally named and identified the movement and uncompromising return to painterly abstraction as lyrical abstraction...Modernist (talk) 17:16, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The article doesn't say that, but conveys the impression of specifically defined but unrelated periods. What seems to be the case, from recent discussions on this pages and references cited, is more of a continuum with certain intensified periods. Ty 17:32, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This can probably be added to the lede, it might help clarify things...Modernist (talk) 18:24, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Lyrical abstraction in general

message: Referencing in article for artists name="Lyrical abstraction movement"
Lyrical abstraction movement retrieved May 24, 2010:
*Richard Diebenkorn Lyrical abstraction movement retrieved May 24, 2010.
*Brice Marden Lyrical abstraction movement retrieved May 24, 2010.
Correct referencing article for artists: name=‘‘’Garboushian Gallery-John Seery Exhibition’’
‘’Garboushian Gallery-John Seery Exhibition’’ retrieved May 24, 2010:
*Richard Diebenkorn ‘’Garboushian Gallery-John Seery Exhibition’’ retrieved May 24, 2010
*Brice Marden ‘’Garboushian Gallery-John Seery Exhibition’’ retrieved May 24, 2010
The referenced article is for the promotion of John Seery, Lyrical Abstractionist painter’s exhibition by the Garbushian gallery owner:   
:”Two years ago, long before opening my Camden Drive gallery space in Beverly Hills, I became acquainted and enamored with artist John Seery's work of the early 1970s….
Seery is an oft-cited prime example of the Lyrical Abstraction movement in New York and Los Angeles-a movement that encompassed work by artists such as Brice Marden, David Reed, and Larry Poons in the late 60s and 70s, also has been applied at times to the work of Arshile Gorky, Richard Diebenkorn and Robert Motherwell, and by definition could feasibly extend to the work of many abstract artists to this day. It's a painterly, emotional and decidedly non Hard-edge type of abstraction….” 
The promotional article is an opinion of the proprietor with no reliable references attached. There is no reference that justifies Richard Diebenkorn and Brice Marden to be included in the list of (Lyrical Abstractionist) Painters. (Salmon1 (talk) 17:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have already addressed this in the preceding thread, which you have not responded to. I repeat it here: "However, there is a better link for that content, namely "L.A. Art Collector Caps Two Year Pursuit of Artist with Exhibition of New Work" on ArtDaily.  The source then becomes ArtDaily rather than the gallerist, as they give it the authority of their publication." You say the source is "an opinion of the proprietor with no reliable references attached." We require wikipedia editors to provide references for material, but we don't require our sources to provide references for their material, as they are considered to be authoritative in their own right. If there is a question mark as to how widespread the viewpoint in the source is or another source differs, a simple solution is to attribute it to the source in the article text or in a footnote, e.g. "Collector and gallery owner, Herair Garboushian said... etc."  Ty 17:39, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations for Richard Diebenkorn and Brice Marden

message: Tyrenius and or Modernist you are the responsible party for the citations at hand as well as participant in the creation of the article at hand. According to the rules of Wikipedia: 
:”Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we only publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves….Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. When relying on primary sources, extreme caution is advised: Wikipedians should never interpret the content of primary sources for themselves. See Wikipedia:No original research....Material such as an article or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable. If the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses, generally it has been at least preliminarily vetted by one or more other scholars.”
In forcing of addition of major American abstract expressionists to be included in the list of (Lyrical Abstractionist) painters as you pointed out may elicit OR or WP:NPOV or both. Also please keep in mind the definition:
:” According to encyclopedia.com (Oxford University Press):
Lyrical Abstraction. A rather vague term, used differently by different writers, applied to a type of expressive but non-violent abstract painting flourishing particularly in the 1950s and 1960s, chiefly in France; the term seems to have been coined by the French painter Georges Mathieu, who spoke of ‘abstraction lyrique’ in 1947. European critics often use it more or less as a synonym for Art Informel or Tachisme; Americans sometimes see it as an emasculated version of Abstract Expressionism. To some writers the term implies particularly a lush and sumptuous use of colour.”
The tenuous definition of Lyrical Abstraction demands the reliance on indisputable references. Please reread the reason for the deletion of James Books as well as Motherwell from the list of (Lyrical Abstractionist) Painters. It is critical to adhere to the rules of wikipedia. (Salmon1 (talk) 18:31, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not aware that I have been a participant in any significant way in the creation of the article. I have found some sources for it. I don't understand your citing of wikipedia policy. You are urging (quite correctly) that material should come from sources and that these sources should be used from NPOV and not be interpreted by wikipedia editors. However, sources have been provided which state that certain artists are associated with lyrical abstraction and it is you who wish to make an interpretation of your own to say that the sources should not be used. Ty 19:54, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You have to pay attention to the fact that in the arguments provided for the deletion of specific artists one must rely on references alone. (Salmon1 (talk) 20:40, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Truthfully you added the entire list of European 'lyrical abstractionists,' and you added the double definition; and you added the entire list from the Aldrich catalog...Modernist (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply to Tyrenius and or Modernist

message: * Artists' estates: reputations in trust
By Magda Salvesen, Diane Cousineau, p.69 Google books], retrieved May 27, 2010. James Brooks stated:
:”I think my whole tendency has been away from a fast-moving line either violent or lyrical into something that is slower and denser of more wandering and unknowing.”
The citation clearly determines that James Brooks did not consider himself a Lyrical Abstractionist painter. Since James brooks clearly states that his whole tendency has been away from lyrical therefore there is no reason to list him as a Lyrical Abstractionist painter. (Salmon1 (talk) 20:58, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This line further down on the same page -  Artists' estates: reputations in trust
By Magda Salvesen, Diane Cousineau, p.69 Google books] "By 1948 Brooks' interest in synthetic cubism had evolved into a lyrical abstraction of stains, drips, and interpenetrating platelets of color." undermines your assertion...Modernist (talk) 21:08, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. The citation clearly states his work as "lyrical abstraction". Ty 21:15, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations for James Brooks (2)

message: ::::The copying in both pages is necessitated by your statement: 
::::”Your continual advocacy against these lyrical abstraction painters has become the pushing of a POV and Tendentious editing.”
::::*Providing proofs in a dispute <U>is</U> following the rules of Wikipedia. It is not</U>“the pushing of a POV and Tendentious editing.” 
::::*Proof of WP:ORIGINAL does not require consensus. Wikipedia as a free encyclopedia ultimately adheres to its principal rules. 
::::Modernist and/or Tyrenius created a list:   with the subtitle:
::::”This is a list of artists, whose work or a period or significant aspects of it, has been seen as lyrical abstraction."The subtitle follows the listing of 87 artists. The first artists listed:
::::*Arshile Gorky (primarily abstract expressionism and surrealism) 
::::*Lyrical Abstraction, Ref.26: Doment Richard: Arshile Gorky: A Retrospective at Tate Modern, review 8 Febr. 2010: 
:::: “In 1920, through the generosity of a relative, the children reached America, where in due course the exiled painter would draw on imagery culled from memories of his boyhood to forge a new language of lyrical abstraction.”
::::Later on the exhibition review he writes:
::::”Gorky was the link between European Surrealism and American Abstract Expressionism. The passion, enigma and autobiographical dimension of his work would find their way into the art of Jackson Pollock, Willem de Kooning, and, above all, Cy Twombly.”
::::*Ref.27: Art Daily: First Major Retrospective of Arshile Gorky in Europe for Twenty Years Opens at Tate: May 24 2010 No named reviewer.
::::“His lyrical abstractions anticipated Abstract Expressionism, which emerged in 1940s New York amongst a circle of artists who valued spontaneity of expression and individuality, including Jackson Pollock, Willem de Kooning and Mark Rothko. Gorky’s assimilation of European and American influences resulted in a distinctive synthesis of artistic cultures. Paralleling the Surrealists’ idea of automatism – the free flowing release of the hand from conscious control of the mind - he forged an entirely new type of abstract painting.”
::::Ref.28:artdaily.org: L.A. Art Collector Caps Two Year Pursuit of Artist with Exhibition of New Work:
::::“Two years ago, long before opening his Camden Drive gallery space in Beverly Hills, art collector Herair Garboushian became acquainted and enamored with artist John Seery’s work of the early 1970s………Seery is an oft-cited prime example of the Lyrical Abstraction movement in New York and Los Angeles—a movement that encompassed work by artists such as Brice Marden, David Reed, and Larry Poons in the late 60s and 70s, also has been applied at times to the work of Arshile Gorky, Richard Diebenkorn and Robert Motherwell, and by definition could feasibly extend to the work of many abstract artists to this day. It’s a painterly, emotional and decidedly non Hard-edge type of abstraction.” 
::::The above promotional, advertising article by collector/dealer for John Seery on the website, artdaily.org is an exact duplicate of the advertizing article by the same gallery on the website, visualartsource.com. ‘’Garboushian Gallery-John Seery Exhibition’’ It repeats the same above statement: 
::::”Two years ago, long before opening my Camden Drive gallery space in Beverly Hills, I became acquainted and enamored with artist John Seery's work of the early 1970s….Seery is an oft-cited prime example of the Lyrical Abstraction movement in New York and Los Angeles-a movement that encompassed work by artists such as Brice Marden, David Reed, and Larry Poons in the late 60s and 70s, also has been applied at times to the work of Arshile Gorky, Richard Diebenkorn and Robert Motherwell, and by definition could feasibly extend to the work of many abstract artists to this day. It's a painterly, emotional and decidedly non Hard-edge type of abstraction….”
::::The repeat advertising segments on John Seery substantiate that “Reference:28” cannot serve as reliable source for reference to justify Arshile Gorky as an American Lyrical Abstractionist Painter.
::::*Ref.29: Tate.org.uk. Press Office: Press Releases:  Arshile Gorky: A Retrospective February, 9. 2010.
::::About the exhibition it states:
::::”Celebrating one of the most powerful and poetic American artists of his generation, Arshile Gorky: A Retrospective examines the extraordinary contribution of this seminal figure in Abstract Expressionism.......His lyrical abstractions anticipated Abstract Expressionism, which emerged in 1940s New York amongst a circle of artists who valued spontaneity of expression and individuality, including Jackson Pollock, Willem de Kooning and Mark Rothko,”
::::If the list intend to further substantiate the article, American Lyrical Abstraction is an art movement that emerged in New York City, Los Angeles, Washington, DC, and then Toronto and London during the 1960s - 1970s, then referencing of Arshile Gorky relies entirely on the synthesis of published data which is WP:ORIGINAL in wikipedia is against the rules. 
::::*Ref.30: Mildred Lane Kemper Art Museum: Gesture, Scrape, Combine, Calculate: Postwar Abstraction from the Permanent Collection
:::::”This exhibition showcases works of large-scale postwar abstraction from the Kemper Art Museum’s permanent collection. The selection presents a cross-section of proliferating strategies and approaches to abstract painting and sculpture as practiced by artists working across the United States and in Europe from the immediate postwar years to the late 1970s. Highlights include examples of gestural and lyrical abstraction, color-field painting, hard-edge abstraction, and assemblage by artists such as Alberto Burri, Gene Davis, Roberto Matta, Arshile Gorky, Allan McCollum, Jules Olitski, Antoni Tàpies, and Anne Truitt.” 
::::The reference does not specifically states that Arshile Gorky was a Lyrical Abstractionist Painter.
::::Discussion:
::::* Arshile Gorky: (born Arshile Gorky; April 15, 1904 – July 21, 1948) in no place in the press releases is defined as a Lyrical Abstractionist painter. In 1971, John I. H. Baur in the ”Forword”of the Whitney Museum exhibitionLyrical Abstraction : a gift of the Larry Aldrich Foundation.wrote the following disclaimer: 
::::”To be given an entire exhibition surveying a current trend in American art at a single blow is an experience unusual to the verge of bizarre………Mr. Aldrich defines the trend of Lyrical Abstraction……Suffice it to say that that they are the reflection of the founder’s (Mr. Larry Aldrich founder of the Aldrich Museum of Contemporary Art) taste, his unorthodox methods, his unconcern with established reputations and above all his responsive and receptive eye.”
::::According to encyclopedia.com (Oxford University Press):
::::”Lyrical Abstraction. A rather vague term, used differently by different writers, applied to a type of expressive but non-violent abstract painting flourishing particularly in the 1950s and 1960s, chiefly in France; the term seems to have been coined by the French painter Georges Mathieu, who spoke of ‘abstraction lyrique’ in 1947. European critics often use it more or less as a synonym for Art Informel or Tachisme; Americans sometimes see it as an emasculated version of Abstract Expressionism. To some writers the term implies particularly a lush and sumptuous use of colour.”
::::The tenuous definition of Lyrical Abstraction demands the reliance on indisputable use of the term, Lyrical Abstraction, commencing in America in 1969. Please see:  
::::Arshile Gorky died in 1948 before American abstract expressionism and latter in 1969 Lyrical Abstraction emerged in the US. In 1951, Lloyd Goodrich, in “Homage to Gorky,” a talk delivered on February 16, 1951, as part of a symposium on Gorky at the Painter’s Club, New York stated:American Abstract Expressionism of the 1950s An Illustrated Survey, (New York School Press, 2003.) . p. 14 stated: 
::::”Even when he was trying to paint a Picasso or a Braque, the result was pure Gorky.”
::::There are number of citations asides from Arshile Gorky for different artists in the list:  that need to be analyzed as to their correct listing as Lyrical Abstractionist Painters. (Salmon1 (talk) 23:01, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Gorky references (cont)

message: You have given the quote from Dorment where he mentions lyrical abstraction. You have then given a second quote from him, without any comment as to why you have done so. The second does not invalidate the first. Gorky can both "forge a new language of lyrical abstraction" and also be "the link between European Surrealism and American Abstract Expressionism". Ty 02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Richard Dorment

message: You have stated, "Ref.27: Art Daily: First Major Retrospective of Arshile Gorky in Europe for Twenty Years Opens at Tate: May 24 2010 No named reviewer",  again without any comment as to why you have done so, apart from "no named reviewer". A named reviewer is not necessary. The name of the publication is adequate. Ty 02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Art Daily on Tate show

message: You have stated "Ref.28:artdaily.org: L.A. Art Collector Caps Two Year Pursuit of Artist with Exhibition of New Work" and commented that it is an "exact duplicate" of the article on "visualartsource.com. Garboushian Gallery-John Seery Exhibition. However, you then quote the two texts, which shows they are not exact duplicates. The first begins, "Two years ago, long before opening his Camden Drive gallery space in Beverly Hills, art collector Herair Garboushian became acquainted..." The second begins, "Two years ago, long before opening my Camden Drive gallery space in Beverly Hills, I became acquainted..."
You say re. the preceding, "The repeat advertising segments on John Seery substantiate that “Reference:28”  cannot serve as reliable source for reference".  The article on ArtDaily is not an advert, but editorial matter.  The source is the publisher of it, ArtDaily, as a reliable source.
Ty 02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: ArtDaily on Seery show

message: You state, "Ref.29: Tate.org.uk. Press Office: Press Releases: Arshile Gorky: A Retrospective February, 9. 2010" and give a quote from that without any indication of why you are questioning it as a reliable source. Ty 02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Tate on Gorky show

message: You say, "If the list intend to further substantiate the article" and link to the section on "American Lyrical Abstraction".  No one said the list is intended to substantiate the article. The list is in its own section and clearly defined. Lists can't substantiate an article: only references can do that. 
You say, "American Lyrical Abstraction is an art movement  that emerged in New York City, Los Angeles, Washington, DC, and then Toronto  and London during the 1960s - 1970s, then referencing of Arshile Gorky relies entirely on the synthesis of published data which is WP:ORIGINAL in wikipedia is against the rules."  You are wrong: referencing of Arshile Gorky does not synthesise anything. The sources state clearly that he painted in the mode of lyrical abstraction. There is no novel conclusion. It is synthesis to say "American Lyrical Abstraction emerged 1960s - 1970s; Gorky died before that; therefore Gorky cannot be classed as a lyrical abstraction painter." It is WP:SYNTH, because the sources do not say it: the only person saying it is you, hence WP:NOR. 
Clearly there is more to lyrical abstraction in America than the particular emergence of it in the 1960s - 1970s and the article should reflect that the term is applied to painters before this period also. I have already said this earlier on this page, but you have ignored it.
Ty 02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: American Lyrical Abstraction

message: You say, re. "Ref.30: Mildred Lane Kemper Art Museum: Gesture, Scrape, Combine, Calculate: Postwar Abstraction from the Permanent Collection" that "The reference does not specifically states that Arshile Gorky was a Lyrical Abstractionist Painter". I agree: it is clearly non-specific. I have removed the ref and replaced with a specific one from The Providence Journal. Ty 02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Kemper Art Museum ref

message: You say, "Arshile Gorky: (born Arshile Gorky; April 15, 1904 – July 21, 1948) in no place in the press releases is defined as a Lyrical Abstractionist painter." I presume this means the press releases for the Whitney Museum show in 1971. An absence doesn't validate that Gorky was not a lyrical abstractionist, only that he was not included in this show, which, as you go on to quote, was "the reflection of the founder’s (Mr. Larry Aldrich founder of the Aldrich Museum of Contemporary Art) taste". Ty 02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Whitney Museum show

message: You give a definition from "encyclopedia.com (Oxford University Press" and say, "The tenuous definition of Lyrical Abstraction demands the reliance on indisputable use of the term, Lyrical Abstraction, commencing in America in 1969."  The definition is limited in scope and other sources give a much fuller application of the term. We should represent them all per WP:NPOV.  I agree that article inclusion should rely on "indisputable use of the term" and the references have been supplied which do exactly that. However, the article is "Lyrical abstraction" and not "Lyrical Abstraction, commencing in America in 1969". It covers all uses of the term, and all artists to whom the term have been applied. Your argument points to a rearrangement of article content, not removal of it. I have pointed this out before, but you have ignored it. Ty 02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Indisputable use

message: You say, "Arshile Gorky died in 1948 before American abstract expressionism and latter [sic] in 1969 Lyrical Abstraction emerged in the US." If Gorky (as sources identify him) was a lyrical abstraction painter, then clearly lyrical abstraction was being practised in America before 1969. It may have emerged with a particular focus in 1969. Again, this argues for clarification in the article. It does not invalidate the application of the term by sources to Gorky. Your argument for that, as I have pointed out above, is a violation of WP:SYNTH. Ty 02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: A Google search displays multiple articles and museum texts in which Gorky's work has been described as displaying elements of lyrical abstraction , which is in keeping with the premise of the lede, as well as the later listing artists, whose work or a period or significant aspects of it, has been seen as lyrical abstraction. Given that the term has been used not solely to describe the artists of the Aldrich show, this strikes one as a non-controversial inclusion.  JNW (talk) 03:44, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Gorky's life

message: ::Here is a video lecture by the curator of the recent Gorky Retrospective at the Philadelphia Museum in which journalist Lee Rosenbaum comments Taylor effuses over Gorky's greatest works---the lyrical abstractions of 1943-4. Michael Taylor lecture, Philadelphia Museum...Modernist (talk) 04:12, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Video

message: Who is Michael Hunter that you are referring to? Please quote correctly. Michael Taylor, :” the museum's indispensable curator of modern art.”
Please correct your wrong attribution of Michael Hunter to Michael Taylor from The Philadelphia Museum who gave the lecture. The video provides proof for the definition of encyclopedia.com (Oxford University Press):
:”Lyrical Abstraction. A rather vague term, used differently by different writers, applied to a type of expressive but non-violent abstract painting flourishing particularly in the 1950s and 1960s, chiefly in France; the term seems to have been coined by the French painter Georges Mathieu, who spoke of ‘abstraction lyrique’ in 1947. European critics often use it more or less as a synonym for Art Informel or Tachisme; Americans sometimes see it as an emasculated version of Abstract Expressionism. To some writers the term implies particularly a lush and sumptuous use of colour.”
In the video Michael Taylor, uses the term “lyrical abstraction” to imply
:”particularly a lush and sumptuous use of colour.”(Salmon1 (talk) 14:29, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect quotation of Video

message: History of the term in America 
:”Lyrical Abstraction in America, according to John I. H. Baur, curator of the Whitney Museum of American Art,Lyrical Abstraction, exhibition: May 25 through July 6, 1971, ‘’Forword by John I. H. Baur’’ was an art movement during the sixties and early seventies.”
The “Forword” by John I. H. Baur does not include any of the above statement:
:”To be given an entire exhibition surveying a current trend in American art at a single blow is an experience unusual to the verge of the bizarre…Mr. Aldrich defines the trend of Lyrical Abstraction and explains how he came to acquire the works…”
(Salmon1 (talk) 16:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Misrepresentation in the article

message: James Brooks: My whole tendency has been away from the fast moving line either violent or lyrical.. Added to the External Links James Brooks' testimony with the introduction by Ann Temkin Chief Curator, MOMA. Wikipedia demands reliable sources as reference. I hope his own voice will give enough proof that James Brooks does not belong to the list:
:"This is a list of artists, whose work or a period or significant aspects of it, has been seen as lyrical abstraction, including those before the identification of the term or tendency in America in the 1960s."
Please take off the name of James Brooks from the list. (Salmon1 (talk) 16:02, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Brooks is rightfully included in the article because of these 3 references one of which includes the quote which is on the sound bite that contains his comment about his line:NY Times obituary retrieved May 24, 2010Honolulu Academy of Art retrieved May 24, 2010Artists' estates: reputations in trust
By Magda Salvesen, Diane Cousineau, p.69 Google books, retrieved May 27, 2010 The sound bite is accompanied by this text by Magda Salvesen and Diane Cousineau: By 1948 Brook's interest in synthetic cubism had evolved into a lyrical abstraction of stains, drips, and interpenetrating platelets of color. Modernist (talk) 20:57, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: James Brooks' testimony denying his association with lyrical abstraction