Talk:Lonnie Frisbee/Archive 1

message: Frisbee was abused and molested as a child. This may have led to sexual confusion later, both before and during his life as a Christian. He remained silent about these matters during the rest of his life. Though he was raised in a Christian home, he found the California drug culture more inviting.
This paragraph has a couple subtle POV problems. Is it the bigoted attitude of his peers that led to the confusion, or the molestation? I'm not saying the article should be changed to support the former view, that would just be the reverse POV, but the language needs to be made more neutral and less editorial as per wikipedia NPOV policy. 
Second the sentence "though he was raised in a Christian home, he found the California drug culture more inviting", this comes from the POV that the California drug culture was necessarily opposed to Christianity. There were many Christian sects involved in the California drug culture, as a matter of fact the California drug culture is apparently what made LF dedicate his life to Christian beliefs. And I even know Christians today who see some drugs, like hallicinogens, as perfectly acceptable, perhaps even spiritualy edifying (if I were Christian I probably wouldn't hold this view,  but nonetheless there are people who DO hold this view who are Christians--and very familiar with Christian doctrine--which makes the implications of the sentence in question POV.)--Brentt 00:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good points. Saying he was "found" does come from a very Christian POV. Brentt 06:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Drugs and Homosexuality

message: - Lonnie contracted AIDS at some point in his life, and he died on 12 March 1993 from complications. He was eulogized as a Samson figure—a man through whom God did many great works, but was the victim of his own struggles and temptations.
I have a quick thought.  AIDS surfaced as an epidemic in 1981.  My uncle contracted it in the 80s and he died in about 1991.  Therefore, Lonnie Frisbee must have been involved in homosexual acts or needle sharing.  Just a thought.  What do you think?  MLSmateo 05:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It should go without saying, but won't, that heterosexuals can, in fact, contract aids through heterosexual sex. Anal sex has a slightly higher risk because of abrasions, but its not like non-IV using heterosexuals don't get aids. But its moot. I think its not controversial whether he was involved in homosexual acts or not is it? I thought that was kind of inferred by just about everyone seeing as how he didn't have a blood transfusion. (Although there are other ways to contract it. For example a lazy hospital tech or nurse not sterilizing equipment properly--this actually happened to a friend of mine. The equipment was used on an HIV patient before her too. They called her a year later and told her to come in for a HIV test. Fortunately she tested out OK. Point is there are other ways, but since Lonnie did apparently "struggle" with his sexuality, it wouldn't be unreasonable to suspect that he contracted it through sexual intercourse.) Brentt 05:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lonnie & AIDS

message: I hope I did this right.  I discussed with Duane Pederson (editor/publisher of the Hollywood Free Paper during the Jesus Movement) the fact that there was no photo of Lonnie Frisbee accompanying his article on Wikipedia.  I mentioned the particular photo I wanted to post, and asked him if the HFP owned that photo.  Duane responded "Lonnie's photo is from the HFP archive and permission is given for its use."  I uploaded it to Wikipedia Commons and posted it in the article. - Mark Dixon 04:39, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After adding the photo I was informed that the photo's author, Jack Cheetham, had placed restrictions on the use of his work that would not be compatible with Wikipedia.  I have reverted out my addition of the photo, and Duane Pederson has provided another from the HFP archive that is not subject to Jack's restrictions.  I will be uploading it soon.  Sorry for the misunderstanding. - Mark Dixon 01:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lonnie photo

message: Over the years, since I mention on my web site, the profound impact Lonnie had on my life in 1979 (deliverance from drugs, I have been accused of being a homosexual because Lonnie is accused of being a homosexual!  Wikipedia is doing a firther disservice to all its readers by promoting this unsubstantiated rumor of Lonnie Frisbees so called homosexuality.  John Wimber told me personally that Frisbee contracted HIV from a woman in Africa and that he had never observed deviant behavior in him... it Lonnie was a prominant homosexual artist then please give quote the source of that rumor.  I for one want to know... when I met Lonnie in Denver I was very active in street preaching in the capitol hill (gay district) and never observed any activity by him in that area, I am convinced that the rumor of his homosexuality is spread by those who still oppose the jesus movement and the gospel... and am very glad that no one has entered a wikipedia entry on myself.
Rabbi Yossef, Denver, CO
Lonnie himself told his future wife that he was gay or had been gay but exopected that that aspect of his life was now over. Later on he was witnessed partying at gay bars on Saturdays nights and then preaching the following morning. Both these and other first-hand testimony are in the documementary about his life and his homosexuality is part of the reason that his role in helping build two large churches from humble beginnings has been erased.Benjiboi 19:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where is the evidence of his homosexuality? 

message: I reverted the last edits by Barkonst. The edits were a mix of unacceptable and acceptable, but hard to extricate the acceptable from the unaccapetable because it was such a drastic edit. The edits were quite condescending to other beliefs "new age metaphysics and counter-culture gobbedlygok", which is very unencyclopedic and coming from a Christian POV. (fromt he POV of people who hold those beliefs it isn't gobbedlygok). Becuase it is a article about a Christian and even if Lonnie was dismissive of those beliefs later in life, it is still not NPOV to write the article as such. Saying that later in life Lonnie was dismissive of his beliefs at the time would be the approach more apporpriate to a NPOV article.   
Plus the prose in some parts was unencyclopedic: saying things like those "wild and experimental times" is POV, and a bit of a cliche (I don't mean to call it cliche just to be insulting, it really is a cliche in the sense that it doesn't have the effect intended, its empty.) Also making flowerly similes is unencyclopedic "like a siren's call...".(that would actually be bad writing, because, again, its cliche, even if it was a more appropriate place for such similes. But its unencyclopdedic to make similes like that.)
And finally, without explanation you took out apparently decent sections. If you had replaced those unreferenced sections with good referenced sections, it would be different. But you replaced them with, somtimes OK, sometimes bad (as in unencyclopedic and POV), sections. Had you attributed those statements to a source it would have been OK. But you didn't. So for now I'm going to revert your edits. But some of the information you added was possibly useful to the article. But please reference your sources and keep in mind my, hopefully constructive criticisms above. If you are new to wikipedia, please read the NPOV policy pages. Brentt 11:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverted drastic edit with way too much POV and rosy prose

message: Citations are needed very badly in this article. There are articles about him. All this info should be cited. He is too controversial a figure, with many groups wanting to claim him as their own, for it not to be a well cited article. Brentt 11:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Seriously Needs Cites

message: With the recent edits, this section about anointing was dropped but is key to understanding why a person with his looks, who was gay was put as a minister in front of congregations repeatedly. (see also What Does This Mean above)
"because of what many accounts witnessed as his incredible anointing of the holy spirit as referenced in the Bible's New Testament where believers "do signs, miracles, and wonders for the sake of evangelism or for ministry within the church.""
There may be better ways to explain it but without, I feel the article lacks needed context.Benjiboi 21:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dropped that section as extraneous.  The councept of annointing is (I say without looking) explained on the anointing article.  That is why we wikilink to other articles: so that if people want a detailed explanation of a tangential topic or term, they can follow the link.  Pastor David † 21:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: works for meBenjiboi 22:04, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Anointing explanation

message: The blogspot in question was used as it was a more complete interview with the documentarian about the subject of the article. Also the blogspot was written by someone who is not only within the media industry but also shares a Christian POV so seems well-balanced. The blog is the full version of an interview, hardly a pundit off on a tangent. 
There was no supposedly about him socializing as a gay man even during his preaching days, is referenced in the article and can be seen in the documentary movie, FRISBEE: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher, trailer as well as the documentary movie itself.
Also I did consider if Lonnie was bisexual but no research has yet supported this and everyone so far confirmed that he said he was gay and closeted. Also please stop removing LGBT categories. Benjiboi 23:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dear Burntapple, Lonnie Frisbee was gay 

message: I've done more research as suggested as a follow up to the edit warring and am documenting that work here for future reference. 
In The Orange County Weekly article "The First Jesus Freak," which chronicles Frisbee's life, Matt Coker writes, "Chuck Smith Jr. says he was having lunch with Wimber one day when he asked how the pastor reconciled working with a known homosexual like Frisbee. Wimber asked how the younger Smith knew this. Smith said he’d received a call from a pastor who’d just heard a young man confess to having been in a six-month relationship with Frisbee. Wimber called Smith the next day to say he’d confronted Frisbee, who openly admitted to the affair and agreed to leave." Benjiboi 20:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm hesitant to reveal my religion and spiritual life but I will state clearly that Christian or other religious affiliation POVs need to be checked at the door as well as an acceptance that we all have POVs and need to keep them in check, let the facts speak for themselves and if we include an opinion or research it should be sourced as to who's opinion or research and we should use reliable sources to do so. Regardless if one religion thinks homosexuality is sinful or whatever that POV-pushing is not improving the article and will get removed, if not by me, by another editor soon enough. Frisbee was both gay and the founder (correcting my mistake, he's considered the charismatic spark) of two charismatic Christian denominations, this is a great study in contradictions and, I believe, has been addressed in the article appropriately. Soulforce's inclusion in the documentary, to me, shows that similar to wikipedia there is balancing information presented and he let's the many sources speak for themselves as should we. I think some of your contributions presented neutrally could potentially improve the article but adding statements such as Di Sabatino has made other unfair and hostile accusations against Christianity casting doubt on his ability to objectively handle the material.; Had Lonnie chosen to separate himself from the practice of homosexuality, as he had been urged to by the Christian community, he likely would have never contracted AIDS and “Samson—a man who knew the powerful anointing of God’s light all would make wonderful contributions to a church bulletin but have little room in an encyclopedia. Benjiboi 21:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I will state clearly that LGBT or other social engineering POVs need to be checked at the door as well as an acceptance that we all have POVs and need to keep them in check.  
You have repeatedly TWISTED the truth to contort to your LGBT worldview. It is just as much an influence as anyone's religion. You don't get to play the game that you are purely objective while anyone with a religious/spiritual background is addled with a bias.
You called my reporting that Lonnie was molested 'slanderous.'
But it was Di Sabatino, who you are ALL TOO WILLING to use as a NPOV source, who revealed this truth and key to why Lonnie became a homosexual. http://www.consolationchamps.com/2005/06/14/who-was-lonnie-frisbee/
"Di Sabatinosays that Lonnie was RAPED as an eight-year-old child "
The quote 'Samson—a man who knew the powerful anointing of God’s light' came from Chuck Smith. A man that your side wants to slander as being 'hurtful' to Lonnie. It was spoken at his funeral as a tribute and it PERFECTLY captures the reality that was Lonnie's life. This is irrespective of Di Sabatino's cutaway to Lonnie's ex who apparently didn't get the analogy.
But it is very apt. And it's going back in the article. Quit editing to satisfy your compunction to 'punish' Christianity for not accepting the practice of homosexuality.
Chuck Smith's primary beef with Lonnie was over DOCTRINAL issues.
The two had different takes about how much Charismatic influences the church service would have. That's why there was the rift.
But you dishonestly make it seem like it was over Lonnie being 'gay.' 
Lonnie never self-Id'd as gay. He struggled AGAINST that temptation just like he would struggle against any other SINFUL predilection.  His battles with other church leaders were egocentric turf wars as is sadly all too common.
This narrative that the church shunned him at his most needy hour but the brave gay soul found it in his heart to forgive the heartless hateful Christians on his death bed may make for a good LIFETIME movie. But it has no place in an encyclopedia.
There is NOTHING confusing as you imply in the life of Lonnie Frisbee. He was raped as a child and that early HORRIFIC influence was VERY difficult for him to overcome. Even after he became a born again believer, he struggled. 
It's only confusing for the confused.
Lonnie was a man with a weakness. Just like Sampson.
Lonnie tried very hard, with intermittent success, to overcome that weakness. In the end, it wound up exposing him to disease and death.
You write "Frisbee was both gay and the founder of two charismatic Christian denominations, this is a great study in contradictions and, I believe, has been addressed in the article appropriately."
THAT IS THE LGBT narrative of what happened. It is utterly at odds with the truth but it's the one you are trying to FORCE the facts to fit, even when they don't.
For you to call Lonnie gay is the same as calling Sampson bald.
Defining the man by his weakness. That is unacceptable in a NPOV encyclopedia.
To stipulate that Lonnie was 'the founder' of two charismatic Christian denominations demonstrates you know nothing of Christianity and even less of the Vineyard or Calvary. Lonnie was certainly instrumental in empowering those ministries, and it serves your purpose as a gay activist trying to shred the truth to elevate him to a 'founder.' 
But he founded neither nor EVER claimed to. 
There is NO debate on this. 
Here is the proof: http://gaddabout.blogspot.com/2005/11/vineyard-mythology.html
Lonnie himself REBUKES THIS LIE in this video at the 35:00 mark
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6833129779160574833
I'll grant you this...he seems VERY gay in this video.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.68.127 (talk) 07:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

text: It all boils down to SOURCE? REFERENCE? PROOF? DATA? which you have not provided. You add things to the article without adding any sources, references or proof whatsoever. Benjiboi's reverts of your addition of unsourced content is warranted, valid and correct, whether you like it or not. You want to cite Wikipedia policy about 3RR but don't follow policy yourself. You can't have it both ways. When it comes to unsourced content, Wikipedia is not a democracy. Further, if you continue to add unsourced content to this article, someone will be forced to request a ban against you. Now, contribute to the article with sources or leave it alone. --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 05:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Hi again, although all very inspiring (in ways you probably didn't intend) the valid references above have already been used in the articles (see WP:RS) and the final reference being a page copy of the article we're actually writing from several years ago. Also I never claimed, and will correct if someone else did, that Frisbee founded any churches as I found nothing in the many videoes and writings that claimed he did, instead it clearly designates him as being the charismatic spark' igniting two denominations and influencing countless others. Benjiboi 21:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Adding Homosexuality Revealed To Church Officials Section

message: In a 2005 interview by British Columbian Christian News film reviewer Peter Chattaway with David Di Sabatino, the documentary director of "Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher" they spoke about addressing Lonnie's homosexuality with his family. "I brought to light some things that not a lot of people knew. I've been in rooms with his family where I've had to tell them that he defined himself as gay, way back. Nobody knew that. There's a lot of hubris in that, to come to people who loved him and prayed for him, and to stand there and say, "You didn't really know this, but..." Benjiboi 22:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To Lonnie's Family

message: In the same interview Di Sabatino also stated, "His early testimony at Calvary Chapel was that he had come out of the homosexual lifestyle, but he felt like a leper because a lot of people turned away from him after that, so he took it out of his testimony—and I think that's an indictment of the church."  Benjiboi 03:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm hesitant to reveal my religion and spiritual life but I will state clearly that Christian or other religious affiliation POVs need to be checked at the door as well as an acceptance that we all have POVs and need to keep them in check, let the facts speak for themselves and if we include an opinion or research it should be sourced as to who's opinion or research and we should use reliable sources to do so. Regardless if one religion thinks homosexuality is sinful or whatever that POV-pushing is not improving the article and will get removed, if not by me, by another editor soon enough. Frisbee was both gay and the founder (correcting my mistake, he's considered the charismatic spark) of two charismatic Christian denominations, this is a great study in contradictions and, I believe, has been addressed in the article appropriately. Soulforce's inclusion in the documentary, to me, shows that similar to wikipedia there is balancing information presented and he let's the many sources speak for themselves as should we. I think some of your contributions presented neutrally could potentially improve the article but adding statements such as Di Sabatino has made other unfair and hostile accusations against Christianity casting doubt on his ability to objectively handle the material.; Had Lonnie chosen to separate himself from the practice of homosexuality, as he had been urged to by the Christian community, he likely would have never contracted AIDS and “Samson—a man who knew the powerful anointing of God’s light all would make wonderful contributions to a church bulletin but have little room in an encyclopedia. Benjiboi 21:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I will state clearly that LGBT or other social engineering POVs need to be checked at the door as well as an acceptance that we all have POVs and need to keep them in check.  
You have repeatedly TWISTED the truth to contort to your LGBT worldview. It is just as much an influence as anyone's religion. You don't get to play the game that you are purely objective while anyone with a religious/spiritual background is addled with a bias.
You called my reporting that Lonnie was molested 'slanderous.'
But it was Di Sabatino, who you are ALL TOO WILLING to use as a NPOV source, who revealed this truth and key to why Lonnie became a homosexual. http://www.consolationchamps.com/2005/06/14/who-was-lonnie-frisbee/
"Di Sabatinosays that Lonnie was RAPED as an eight-year-old child "
The quote 'Samson—a man who knew the powerful anointing of God’s light' came from Chuck Smith. A man that your side wants to slander as being 'hurtful' to Lonnie. It was spoken at his funeral as a tribute and it PERFECTLY captures the reality that was Lonnie's life. This is irrespective of Di Sabatino's cutaway to Lonnie's ex who apparently didn't get the analogy.
But it is very apt. And it's going back in the article. Quit editing to satisfy your compunction to 'punish' Christianity for not accepting the practice of homosexuality.
Chuck Smith's primary beef with Lonnie was over DOCTRINAL issues.
The two had different takes about how much Charismatic influences the church service would have. That's why there was the rift.
But you dishonestly make it seem like it was over Lonnie being 'gay.' 
Lonnie never self-Id'd as gay. He struggled AGAINST that temptation just like he would struggle against any other SINFUL predilection.  His battles with other church leaders were egocentric turf wars as is sadly all too common.
This narrative that the church shunned him at his most needy hour but the brave gay soul found it in his heart to forgive the heartless hateful Christians on his death bed may make for a good LIFETIME movie. But it has no place in an encyclopedia.
There is NOTHING confusing as you imply in the life of Lonnie Frisbee. He was raped as a child and that early HORRIFIC influence was VERY difficult for him to overcome. Even after he became a born again believer, he struggled. 
It's only confusing for the confused.
Lonnie was a man with a weakness. Just like Sampson.
Lonnie tried very hard, with intermittent success, to overcome that weakness. In the end, it wound up exposing him to disease and death.
You write "Frisbee was both gay and the founder of two charismatic Christian denominations, this is a great study in contradictions and, I believe, has been addressed in the article appropriately."
THAT IS THE LGBT narrative of what happened. It is utterly at odds with the truth but it's the one you are trying to FORCE the facts to fit, even when they don't.
For you to call Lonnie gay is the same as calling Sampson bald.
Defining the man by his weakness. That is unacceptable in a NPOV encyclopedia.
To stipulate that Lonnie was 'the founder' of two charismatic Christian denominations demonstrates you know nothing of Christianity and even less of the Vineyard or Calvary. Lonnie was certainly instrumental in empowering those ministries, and it serves your purpose as a gay activist trying to shred the truth to elevate him to a 'founder.' 
But he founded neither nor EVER claimed to. 
There is NO debate on this. 
Here is the proof: http://gaddabout.blogspot.com/2005/11/vineyard-mythology.html
Lonnie himself REBUKES THIS LIE in this video at the 35:00 mark
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6833129779160574833
I'll grant you this...he seems VERY gay in this video.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.68.127 (talk) 07:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

text: It all boils down to SOURCE? REFERENCE? PROOF? DATA? which you have not provided. You add things to the article without adding any sources, references or proof whatsoever. Benjiboi's reverts of your addition of unsourced content is warranted, valid and correct, whether you like it or not. You want to cite Wikipedia policy about 3RR but don't follow policy yourself. You can't have it both ways. When it comes to unsourced content, Wikipedia is not a democracy. Further, if you continue to add unsourced content to this article, someone will be forced to request a ban against you. Now, contribute to the article with sources or leave it alone. --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 05:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Hi again, although all very inspiring (in ways you probably didn't intend) the valid references above have already been used in the articles (see WP:RS) and the final reference being a page copy of the article we're actually writing from several years ago. Also I never claimed, and will correct if someone else did, that Frisbee founded any churches as I found nothing in the many videoes and writings that claimed he did, instead it clearly designates him as being the charismatic spark' igniting two denominations and influencing countless others. Benjiboi 21:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To Calvary Chapel

message: "As part of his ostracism from his former churches, his work was maligned"
Can someone provide a source for this? It's possible this happened as sometimes, in an effort to move on, people in church's will castigate their former leaders. It's kind of like ripping on an old girlfriend. lol But the inference here is that, because he wound up giving in to homosexual behavior, his work was trashed.
That's a far more INSIDIOUS charge and needs to be bolstered by facts if it is true which I doubt.
:It is true and I've added the source. Benjiboi 20:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Source?