Talk:Elective monarchy

message: Does anyone have any idea what distinguishes an elected monarch from a president for life? DJ Clayworth 18:33, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Were Roman emperors formally elected by the Senate?
The dynastic principle was not very effective in some cases and they were crowned after wars.
--Error 01:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not only formally. In several cases they vere effectively elected.--Planemo 20:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Roman emperor]]s

message: Question: Isn't the Iranian Supreme Leader a monarch appointed by an elective monarchy (the assembly of experts)?Sandwich Eater 04:46, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't say for sure whether Iran fits this criteria, but the main difference between Iran and the other states mentioned is that Iran is the only one that is constitutionally a republic. It would be better to answer this question if and when some references and citations are added. Green Giant 01:44, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Iran]]

message: Isn't Samoa technically already a republic, which will start to function properly once the last traditional ruler dies? —Nightstallion (?) 07:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Samoa]] 

message: It is very arguable that this is elective.  A tribal council has been rubber stamping direct descendants.  This is no different than a parliamentary approval of any hereditary monarchy's succession.  The maori have clearly established a hereditary tradition though it may be true that the tribal chiefs could change that. Sandwich Eater 17:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Zealand  Maori

message: I wonder if this article should be reorganized into different categories.  
1-commonly accepted criteria to be considered an elective monarchy (sourced) and what is not an elective monarchy
2-Clearly Elective Monarchies
3-Monarchies with a very democratic approval process and nomination system
4-Arguable monarchies, that perhaps define themselves as republics or by some other term. 
I deleted the Maori example because it seemed to be an example of approval by an elected group or oligarchy.  It seems to me that most, or at least many monarchies have had an approval process throughout history.  The UK is a hereditary monarchy with a clear line of succession, so despite the fact that parliament approves the monarch, I think it would be safe to say it is a hereditary monarchy, though I haven't looked it up (I don't think anyone argues that it is elective).  What would make it elective is a nominations process and a non-hereditary line of succession that is determined via an elective process, even if it were from a pool of candidates of "royal" blood.  So I propose that an elective nominations process and a non-hereditary line of succession is a necessary criteria for a monarchy to be considered elective.
But I do not have references for this.  I think this article is in need of an expert on the subject who has such references at hand.  Sandwich Eater 18:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reorganize Article??

message: Will Samoa be an elective monarchy once the current king dies, or will it be a republic? I've read that the next head of state will be elected by parliament for five-year terms, so it seems to be a republic with an indirectly elected president, but I'm not certain, and different Wikipedia pages state different things about this... —Nightstallion (?) 10:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind, it's a republic, period.  —Nightstallion (?) 10:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification needed 

message: In form, the UK is still an elective monarchy; it's just that matters now take place in a degenerate manner. The Council of Accession, a special aspect of the Privy Council, is the direct successor of the Witan in this matter. It's just that it is "obliged" to follow a set of standing orders that make it hereditary in practice - usually. However this still allows variation by breaking the rules (maybe ratifying the breach retrospectively). That's pretty much how dynasties change; the Stuarts came in when the Council of Accession ignored the standing orders embodied in the will of Henry VIII, and went out after the current Act of Succession was brought in. So the form isn't a mere quibble, but instead works as a constitutional circuit breaker in emergencies.
*I have changed it from "President" of Parliament to "Prime Minister", since the United Kingdom has no President. I would also suggest that this section is looked over, as William of Orange and Mary II, whilst being invited to replace James II, were not in any way elected. MILLANDSON (talk) 18:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you removed a legit part of a section that doesn't mention anything about a "president." .--Ave Caesar (talk) 20:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Actually, I agree with the removal now - the assertion that the monarchy was elected is ridiculous.  I only glanced over it and, noticing that millandson had no prior edits, assumed that it was poor edit. --Ave Caesar (talk) 23:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  UK case 

message: I thought that Padme Amidala was 13. (My, My this here Anaking Guy, the song written by Wierd Al Yankovic)
: The reference should probably be excised entirely anyway, given that there was no requirement for royal blood, and the "queen" held a fixed term of office, it seems more like that's a case where an elected head of state is merely a monarch in name only. Sarcastic Avenger (talk) 05:51, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kingdom of Naboo 

message: A proposed deletion was placed because of the "chronic lack of sources."  I'm removing it because there are plenty of sources out there, and this is an important article.  They just need to be hunted down and incorporated.  I've taken a few minutes to add three sources under "external links."  You can help in a few ways: 1) find more sources and add them; 2) add inline citations; 3) add info from the sources and correct the article as needed.  The "external links" can become "references" as the article comes to rely on them.  --Reuben (talk) 21:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing prod

message: Should we mention the Doge of Genoa and the Doge of Venice since those states were sometimes described as crowned republics? The Doge (the word derives from Dux, same root as Duke) was elected but treated with all the pomp and splendor of a monarch of those times. Many of them had more practical powers than the present parliament enchained constitutional monarchies? We should also try to i82.132.220.3 (talk) 20:26, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Doges of Genoa and Venice

message: At the start of the 20th century, the first monarchs of several newly independent nations were elected by parliaments: Norway is the prime example. You could claim that the parliament elected the monarch, still this would be a half-truth. There was a referendum, and as other Norwegian referendums, like EEC/EC/EU referendums in 1972 and 1994, it was officially advisory. In other words, monarchy was elected by referendum.  If you claim that the parliament elected monarchy you'd have to claim that the same parliament which applied for EEC/EC/EU twice, turned it down twice (without mentioning the referendum and the resignment of a government).--Tordenskrall (talk) 22:49, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Norway

message: I have removed Kuwait from the list of current elective monarchies. Very similar to UK and others case, where the Emir has to be ratified by parliment. The article for Kuwait even states the position of Emir is hereditary. 
The case with the United Arab Emirates is similar to New Zealand Maori Monarch, where the President is the Emir of Abu Dhabi, and so the position is essentially hereditary. Similarly with the Prime Minster of the UAE being the Emir of Dubai, and although I'm not sure that mention of the Prime Minister is entirely necessary or appropriate in an article dealing with the monarchy, I've left it in for the time being. I've moved UAE to below the list, leave only three real elective monarchies - Malaysia, Cambodia and the Vatican. 
Any comments? 
- timothykhoo (talk) 13:07, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Kuwait and UAE

message: Yeah, such sections may exist – they could be interesting from Fantasy and SciFi fiction perspective, as well as contrafactual history experiments. But in order to be interesting, there must be something more than
:in the Dr. Death SciFi series from 1993, the nations of Straengia and Wierdia chose their kings from noble families
such as:
:similarly to the old viking kingdom
and
:as opposed to the Grand Republic of The Great Old Ones
Otherwise the In fiction sections tend towards lists of trivia. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 16:31, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: A general Wikipedian opinion on "In fiction"

message: I’ve moved a few bits around, predominantly in the ‘When it was usual’ section, which I’ve re-titled as I reel the previous was clumsy.
Secondly I utterly agree with Rursus about ‘in fiction’. Does every single article have to be followed with a list of every sci-fi or fantasy computer game/ TV series or film that happens to mention that thing? Just because a load of editors are fanboys? Don’t get me wrong, I’m as much a sci-fi geek as the next Wikipedian, I just don’t see the point of making every single article reference Star Wars.
I was going to try and prune the section, but to be fair with the exception of the Shakespeare point they all seemed worthless to me, so I would have just deleted it all, which would no doubt cause ructions. I’ve left it, but if someone wants to trim I think that would be a good idea. I mean honestly, is anyone going to come to this article because they desperately want to know the constitutional makeup of the Dwarves of Orzammar?
Finally, I came here because I was interested to see if there was any movement in the UK, or other Commonwealth Realms, to institute an elected monarchy. Nothing is said here, but if anyone has anything to add on those lines it would be appreciated. Phunting (talk) 14:56, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Some re-organization

message: Two big problems with this article. 1. An elective monarch is where there is a genuine contest or "election" for the position among several candidates. It is not where a council or some other body rubberstamps an hereditary monarch - that would make every monarch on the planet an elected monarch. So many of the examples here should be removed. 2. The fiction section is inappropriate here and should be deleted. This article should be what about what happens in the real world. As it stands, it implies the monarchs of Malaysia and Naboo are on an equal footing which is probably offensive to someone. If somebody wants to create an 'elected monarchs in science fiction and fantasy article' that is up to them, but it has no place here. Neelmack (talk) 10:06, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with article 

message: I add my vote to three earlier comments (in the preceding three sections) that the "In fiction" section does not belong in this article. If someone wants to create a separate Elective monarchy in fiction article using the information in this section, and even to link to it in the "See also" section at the bottom of this article, please do so. That sounds like a great idea.
Since it does not belong here, and since in effect we have established a consensus (four votes for deleting the section, none against), I am going to delete it. To make it clear exactly what I am doing, and for the convenience of anyone who might want to create such an article, I will move the contents of the section here. I have had to add some formatting tags to get it to display reasonably within the  template, but those nowiki and br tags should be easy enough to remove. Although I regret deleting the Shakespeare entry along with the rest, it would be unfair to exclude some fictional monarchies but not all.
If this upsets anyone, please seriously consider creating a new article with this material instead of restoring it here where it clearly is not universally welcome. Thanks very much.--Jim10701 (talk) 03:30, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  No fiction 

message: As far as the functioning of the Vatican City State is concerned, its government has the Pope as absolute monarch serving from selection until death or resignation and exercising his state powers through officers he appoints. Why isn't this included in this article?  More specifically, the Vatican article says "The politics of Vatican City takes place in an absolute elective monarchy, in which the head of the Roman Catholic Church takes power."
KevinCuddeback (talk) 16:29, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pope as elected Monarch 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Does anyone else find the Historical Examples section useless? The article is apparently supposed to be about the institution of elective monarchy. However, the Historical Examples section, for the most part, merely lists examples where a monarch has been elected. That Haakon VII of Norway was elected (or selected) is not an example of elective monarchy because he was elected to an hereditary throne. The same can be said for many of the other "examples". 27.33.121.123 (talk) 05:30, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical examples 

message: Malta was never an elective monarchy. Its inclusion in this entry seems to be based on the use of the word electing when the rulers of Malta chose to put themselves under the protection of the monarch of Great Britain. The Maltese were choosing between different rulers. They did not hold an election. They might as easily have used the words "seek protection from some other ruler or government" as the word "electing". And when Malta became a protectorate of the British (yet still officially part of the Kingdom of Sicily) in 1800 and then a Crown Colony 1813, they held no elections to decide who their monarch would be. They chose to become the subjects of a hereditary monarchy. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 21:05, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malta never elected a monarch 

message: The article says that the Kingdom of Hawaii was an elective monarchy until it was overthrown, but this assertion is not entirely true, and, in fact, more false than true. The Kingdom of Hawaii was never strictly an elective monarchy, and, under the Constitutions of 1864 and 1887, and the never-implemented Draft Constitution of 1893 (which was drafted to replace the Constitution of 1887), it was an unmistakably hereditary monarchy, with legislative election of a Monarch only being a final contingency plan (after a couple other contingency plans provided in those constitutions) in case of the extinction of the Royal House.
From the part of the Constitution of 1840 entitled "Exposition of the Principles on which the Dynasty is Founded":
:The kingdom is permanently confirmed to Kamehameha III, and his heirs, and his heir shall be the person whom he and the chiefs shall appoint, during his life time, but should there be no appointment, then the decision shall rest with the chiefs and house of Representatives.
Article 25 of the Constitution of 1852:
;Article 25
:The crown is hereby permanently confirmed to His Majesty Kamehameha III, during his life, and to his successor. The successor shall be the person whom the King and the House of Nobles shall appoint and publicly proclaim as such, during the King¹s life; but should there be no such appointment and proclamation, then the successor shall be chosen by the House of Nobles and the House of Representatives in joint ballot.
Article 22 of the Constitution of 1864:
;Article 22
:The Crown is hereby permanently confirmed to His Majesty, Kamehameha V, and to the Heirs of His body lawfully begotten, and to their lawful Descendants in a direct line; failing whom, the Crown shall descend to Her Royal Highness the Princess Victoria Kamamalu Kaahumanu, and the heirs of her body, lawfully begotten, and their lawful descendants in a direct line. The Succession shall be to the senior male child, and to the heirs of his body; failing a male child, the succession shall be to the senior female child, and to the heirs of her body. In case there is no heir as above provided, then the successor shall be the person whom the Sovereign shall appoint with the consent of the Nobles, and publicly proclaim as such during the King's life; but should there be no such appointment and proclamation, and the Throne should become vacant, then the Cabinet Council, immediately after the occurring of such vacancy, shall cause a meeting of the Legislative Assembly, who shall elect by ballot some native Alii of the Kingdom as Successor so elected shall become a new Stirps for a Royal Family; and the succession from the Sovereign thus elected, shall be regulated by the same law as the present Royal Family of Hawaii.
Article 22 of the Constitution of 1887:
;Article 22
:The Crown is hereby permanently confirmed to His Majesty Kalakaua, and to the Heirs of His body lawfully begotten, and to their lawful Descendants in a direct line; failing whom, the Crown shall descend to Her Royal Highness the Princess Liliuokalani, and the heirs of her body, lawfully begotten, and their lawful descendants in direct a line. The Succession shall be to the senior male child, and to the heirs of his body; failing a male child, the succession, shall be to the senior female child, and to the heirs of her body. In case there is no heir as above provided, the successor shall be the person whom the Sovereign shall appoint with the consent of the Nobles, and publicly proclaim during the Sovereign's life; but should there be no such appointed and proclamation, and the Throne should become vacant, then the Cabinet, immediately after the occurring of such vacancy, shall cause a meeting of the Legislature, who shall elect by ballot some native Alii of the Kingdom as Successor to the Throne; and the Successor so elected shall become a new Stirps for the Royal Family; and the Succession from the Sovereign thus elected, shall be regulated by the same law as the present Royal Family of Hawaii.
Article 22 of the Draft Constitution of 1893:
;Article 22
:The Crown is hereby permanently confirmed to Her Majesty Liliuokalani and to the heirs of her body lawfully begotten, and to their lawful descendants in a direct line; failing whom, the Crown shall descend to Her Royal Highness the Princess Victoria Kaiulani and the heirs of her own body lawfully begotten, and their descendant in a direct line; failing whom, the Crown shall descend to His Royal Highness the Prince David Kawananakoa and the heirs of his body lawfully begotten, and their descendant in a direct line; failing whom, the Crown shall descend to His Royal Highness the Prince Jonah Kuhio Kalanianaole and the heirs of his body lawfully begotten, and their lawful descendant in the direct line. The succession shall be to the senior male child and to the heirs of his body; failing a male child the succession shall be to the senior female child and to the heirs of her body. In case there is no heir, as above provided, then the successor shall be the person whom the Sovereign shall appoint, with the consent of the nobles, and publicly proclaimed during the Sovereign's life; but should there be no such vacancy, shall cause a meeting of the legislative assembly, who shall elect by ballot some native alii of the Kingdom as successor to the throne; and the successor so elected shall become a new stirps for a royal family; and the succession from the Sovereign thus elected shall be regulated by the same law as the present royal family of Hawaii.
The article is asserting an outright falsehood in saying that Hawaii was an elective monarchy up to the time of the overthrow, as it is painfully clear that Hawaii was a hereditary monarchy at least from 1864 to the overthrow.—MNTRT2009 (talk) 20:29, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hawaii 

message: The article claims that "the first five [Roman] Emperors were all descended from Julius Caesar". This is ground-breaking news! In real history, Caesar only had a daughter, Julia, who did not outlive him, and a son, Caesarion, who lived in Egypt and was killed in 30 BC by order of Octavian. Octavian was Caesar's heir, but not a descendant -- he was posthumously adopted; his only blood connection with Caesar was that his mother, Atia, was the daughter of Caesar's sister Julia. Imerologul Valah (talk) 19:34, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Descended from Julius Caesar"? 

message: The Rashidun caliphs were never monarchs, they didnt have a sense, of royalty, and never did them, nor their common populace, and nor did people from outside the Caliphat mention them as such. Sultanmail (talk) 10:09, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The caliph as monarchs 

message: In the section on Rome is this line:
: The illusion of being elected from the Senate continued when Tiberius succeeded to the purple.
"Purple"?
Xuinkrbin. (talk) 00:31, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The room where Byzantine emperors were born was all purple, so from there comes the expression. 82.36.70.81 (talk) 00:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Purple?