Talk:New York, Susquehanna and Western Railway/Archive 1

message: __TOC__
Working on a massive rewrite.  Will post soon.
Kether83 10:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

message: What are your sources past 1980? The book you cite was last published in the early 1980's and covers only up until 1980. 
Where did you get your information for everything from 1986 on?
The 1986 intermodal info was from another book which I have just added, but have yet to cite the publisher and ISBN for (the book's at home and I'm at work.)
The "Recent and Current operations" and "Interchanges with other railroads" sections are written mostly from my own experiences, other NYSW railfans, and employees of the railroad.Kether83 11:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources Past 1980 

message: I added a map obtained from the NYSW.com website.  I assume fair use since it's only being used to clarify an article about the railroad itself?Kether83 12:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: System Map

message: This still has some significant tone problems.
There's also a remark about avoiding incorporation into Conrail in the first graf that isn't explained in the later sections.
Finally, the article on Delaware Otsego System really needs to be created. Mangoe 17:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  After the copyedit 

message: * Finally started on implementing these as needed.  The WP:MOS suggestions were definately good and all language such as "recently" and synonyms were edited.  Also, a picture was found on the ALCO C636 page which was a great example of the road's modern-day use of antiquated power.  This was added to the modern day section.  A few layout edits were made and the SD45 pic was put back at the top to balance the article and fill the negative space to the right of the TOC.
* Changed the interchanges section to only list the class 1 interchanges.  There are more with roads in NY state on the northern division and these need listing as well once the list is assembled.  also the concept of the road divided into northern/southern divisions needs to be written in.  
* Changed headings as per WP:MOS#Headings
* added  to the references section for future footnotes
* The 21st C. railroad section is horrible and needs to be rewritten.. I'll work on that in the coming days.
Kether83 11:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Peer review implementations

message: Rewrote the 1st paragraph of the section dealing with the current ops.  I will obtain dates and customer names for this section later but had to replace erroneous information and add more. Kether83 11:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: current operations

message: The intro seemed lacking, so I added some info about where exactly the commuter service went, and the fact that the passenger service mentioned since the creation of the article was pretty much all commuter service is something that might be put in later on.  I also shoved the geographical paragraph into its own new section called "Route," as it didn't really fit into the introduction.Kether83 11:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: latest work done

message: Recent contributions have been full of information but please remember that this is an article for more than just railfans.  Please write out road names (e.g. New York Central instead of just NYC).  The huge amount of acronyms and abbreviations in the railroading industry can be confusing for someone "uninitiated" reading this article.  Also, please try to give the fullest location possible.  The map and language of the article suggest that this is in the northeast US, but there are many places in the world with the same names.  (e.g. Syracuse, New York vs. Other Syracuses)  This said, I'm really glad to see people contributing what they can.  This has become a really solid article and with your help, I hope to keep it as such.  Thanks, Kether83 09:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: PLEASE READ THIS

message: I've found many photos on http://www.maywoodstation.com/ (Historical photos 1, 2 and 3) which they state on the website are as follows:Fair use of copyrighted material is limited and includes only the use of protected materials for noncommercial educational purposes, such as teaching, scholarship, research, criticism, commentary, and news reporting. Users who wish to download or print text and image files from this website for such above uses are welcome to do so without the Maywood Station Historical Committee's express permission. Users must credit both the author and the source of this material as they would material from any printed work; the credit must include the URL "http://www.maywoodstation.com" By downloading, printing, or otherwise using text and image files from this website, users agree that they will limit their use of such files to fair use, and will not violate the copyright laws of the Maywood Station Historical Committee or any other party's proprietary rights.
It looks like I've found the jackpot we've been looking for :o)  I'll be working on implementing some of these in the coming days.Kether83 12:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: <b>Usable</b> historical photos found

message: I have started a related article about Walter Kidde. Almost got deleted twice by Wiki vigilantes. As of now its very small, but I'm going to be working on it in the coming days. After that is completed I will start on a WB&E article. 3D jonny
::The WB&E Article is now started. 3D jonny 01:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Walter Kidde & WB&E article 

message: Do we want to invest any time into the branches of the NYS&W? On the Southern Division you've got the Lodi, Passaic, Pompton and Limecrest Industrial branches plus the completly abandoned Edgewater Branch. I can take on the Limecrest and and Pompton branches if we decide to cover them. 3D jonny
:I suppose so - maybe in their own sections like southern div. branches and northern div. branches?  Hey, you could mention the old pompton lakes branch that fed the DuPont powder works during WWII.  It's still partly there (take a look on google earth)Kether83 02:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was checking out the Garden State Park way entry and I see they list all the exits in a wikitable. I was thinking we could do the same for the mile posts on the railroad. I have documentation as to what is at the major mile markers. It would be a bit of work, and maybe long, but do you guys think its worth it? I think it might be worth it in the end, the more info the better. 3D jonny 19:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Industrial branches 

message: The NYS&W has been doing a number of trash transfer (truck->train) operations in Hudson and eastern Bergen counties, causing friction with the towns along the route who have been claiming it violates their zoning and environmental regulations. The railroad says it's not required to follow local regulations, being regulated only by the FRA.  This should be mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.95.123.6 (talk • contribs) 13:07, October 5, 2006.
:: This has no bearing on the article and I can't see how it could be written in a NPOV. There also was fricton with towns along the ROW when the route was re-opened west of Butler. This wasn't mentioned in the article. There is always friction between railroads and towns all over the US. If we wrote about railroad relations with local municipalities it would be a seperate article.  3D jonny 18:53, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If someone can figure out how to mention it in NPOV.. like in association with the Paterson derailment a few months ago.. that's great but otherwise it seems a little one-sided.Kether83 11:08, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trash Transfer & conflicts with towns 

message: When the to-do list calls for a locomotive roster, is it asking for an all time roster or a current roster? 3D jonny
:I think we can simplify it here to a current roster, unless there were particularly notable locomotives in the railroad's history that need to be mentioned.  It seems to me that this is one place where the KISS principle applies.  Slambo (Speak) 14:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, an all-time roster would be a bit much, but a current loco roster would be a great addition.  There would be many questions as well:  Would an all-time roster would need to be inclusive of every piece of self-propelled power such as ACF cars, ex-Erie oil-electric railcars and RDCs?  Where is the line drawn?  For this matter, would a current roster include the OnTrack RDCs at Syracuse?  Let's have a little vote here, I say yes, since they're NYS&W-owned and self-propelled.Kether83 02:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Loco Roster 

message: Unfortunately, the article is not yet quite up to the GA standard.  While the overall organization is good, I found it simply impossible to follow all the details and railroad jargon.  More explanations and wikilinks would be helpful.  And I would avoid jargon such as road for railroad.  Also the level of detail seems higher than necessary in some areas of the more recent history.  The referencing should also be improved.  I use one citation per section as a basic criterion.  A minor note, the info box lists the founding date as 1854 but the text begins with the aftermath of the Civil War ten years later.  Eluchil404 08:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We will work on the article some more and renominate it. The level of detail should always be as high as possible. Thats how REAL encyclopedias operate. Hopefully we can raise the level of detail over the entire article. 3D jonny 14:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You know, not to sound bitter or anything, but I was cruising wikipedia and I came across the jojo article. Exuse me, THIS article is a GA? No wonder people are leaving wikipedia left and right.3D jonny 19:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That article is pretty well written and has a ton of references, so it's good.  Plus, data is organised into tables and it has a good overall style to it.  That said, let's learn from it!  I'll be taking some time to go over the article's text sentence by sentence.  It's how I learned editing from a really great english prof.  I'll start tonight - on with the fun.Kether83 06:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Failing GA nomination

message: I made the 1970's part of the 50's and 60's. I moved it from the 80's because of the level of detail in the 1980's section tend to be a little overwhelming. I don't want to loose the detail since it is such an amazing turn around. I think we could (and should) split the 50's into its own section, since it was the period that the NYS&W came out of reorginization and was economically strong. The 1960's and 1970's (the Maidmen Era) should be their own section togther, as this was really a dark time for the railroad. 3D jonny 16:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving 70's and 80's 

message: I'm taking advantage of my third-shift boredom to go over the article.  the tag should be gone by monday, and the article a bit fresher.Kether83 11:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The road was cut back to Sparta Junction after the abandonment of the L&NE. It was 1962, but I don't know the exact date. I think the last run before the scrappers started was in october of that year. I'll look it up. The NYSW was a class 1 road early in the 20th century. The class 1 threshold has changed through the years. The NYSW proclaimed itself the first class one railroad to be fully dieselized. 3D jonny 12:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: cleanup tagged

message: I've finished a good and thorough go-over.  There were a few contradictions I fixed, as well as some issues with keeping a chronological order.  Spelling and grammar were checked, as well as the flow and tone of the article.  This said, there are some points I noted.
* Some explanation of contemporary railroads like PRR, NYC, Erie, et cetera might be given in the history section to explain the scope of the railroad to someone unfamiliar with east-coast RR history, or even american RR history altogether.
* Take some time to search for a term you add - there might be an article already added covering the subject.  Add a link, and add a redirect if necessary.  Try not to remove links if possible - we want to make knowledge easier to access, not harder.  I say this because there is a separate article dealing with OnTrack which was not linked here.  I'm as guilty of this as the next person - so I'll endeavour to search more as well.
* Bolding other railroad names?  Check out the L&HR article to see what this looks like.
* If there isn't an article on the subject, please start it!  Don't be shy, even one sentence is great as long as there is some information that wasn't there before.  It's how Wikipedia works.  During this edit, I created stubs for Dewitt C. Littlejohn and the Tangshan Locomotive and Rolling Stock Works.
* The OnTrack article doesn't talk about NYS&W at all.  Can someone remedy this?  I'm sort of edited out for a while.
* Keep the referenced coming - we should have a bit more for an article of this size.
* Was the RR ever AAR Class I?  I doubt it - maybe class II.  I'll work on verifying this but if someone else can, go right ahead. (Mentioned in the end of the "Dieselization..." section.
* When was the railroad cut back to Sparta Junction?  A date would be good here (End of first paragraph, 50's and 60's section)
* Other articles have a misc. section or even a trivia section.  We might want to do this for information like "The railroad numbers all locos according to horsepower and even numbers are assigned to MU-equipped units.  RDCs and the 142 are exceptions."  It sort of doesn't fit well anywhere else.  Plus, we get to put in other miscellaneous information we find.  Also, if this section collects information that can be put elsewhere, it can be edited to fit in.
* The article desperately needs a great closing, which I can't think of at the moment.
* Roster.  We need one, but there's been discussion as to whether we ought to go with a current one or an all-time one.  I say now is the time to go for the gusto.  Let's do an all-time roster, but in the interest of sanity, let's make a separate article out of it.  Color coding for current in-service units maybe?  (in the interest of keeping it easy-to-use)  
Here's the roster info I took out of the article, for archival purposes:
MAKE -- MODEL -- ROAD # -- NOTES
EMD -- SW9   -- 120  -- sold in summer of 2006 to loco. rebuilder in dansville, NY
EMD -- GP40  -- 3042 -- originally high-hood, low hood came from donor SD45 #3612
EMD -- SD40T -- 3010 -- originally numbered 3002
EMD -- SD40T -- 3012 --
EMD -- SD40T -- 3014 --
EMD -- SD40T -- 3016 --
EMD -- SD45  -- 3612 -- scrapped, low hood to GP40 #3042
EMD -- SD45  -- 3614 -- salvaged for parts
EMD -- SD45  -- 3618 -- in svc, rebuilt 2006
EMD -- SD45  -- 3634 -- in svc
EMD -- E9    -- 2400 --
EMD -- E9    -- 2402 --
EMD -- SD70M -- 4050 -- leased to IORY
EMD -- SD70M -- 4052 -- leased to IORY
EMD -- SD70M -- 4054 -- leased to IORY
GE  -- 8-40B -- 4002 -- off lease in 2003, to P&W RR 2004
GE  -- 8-40B -- 4004 --                         
GE  -- 8-40B -- 4006 --                         
GE  -- 8-40B -- 4008 --                         
The only real info I could find on IORY is at http://www.railamerica.com/railmaps/IORY.htm
That's it.. I'm taking a break for a while :o)Kether83 08:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The road was cut back to Sparta Junction after the abandonment of the L&NE. It was 1962, but I don't know the exact date. I think the last run before the scrappers started was in october of that year. I'll look it up. The NYSW was a class 1 road early in the 20th century. The class 1 threshold has changed through the years. The NYSW proclaimed itself the first class one railroad to be fully dieselized. 3D jonny 12:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup results

message: nice find on the 3012 pic.. I gained approval for this one: http://www.flickr.com/photos/numsom/215557409/in/set-72157594187380682/
but I can't really think of where it should fit.  the article seems to have enough "modern" photos, we should concentrate on sourcing/finding approval for historical ones - am I right here? Kether83 07:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, the 3012 picture is mine. I was busy last night. I uploaded that picture for this article, plus 3 varients of the EMD SD70 for that article. Its nice to have a collection to draw from. Makes the copyright alot easier!. 3D jonny 11:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: hah.. don't I know it - that's me in the 3618 cab :o) Are you in Butler or no? Kether83 10:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, those were the days for me when the SU-99 and 100 were MAJOR trains for me to fan. When I moved to Hackettstown, I got spoiled by the NS Lehigh Line in Phillipsburg. 3D jonny 19:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New photos

message: I was looking over the article and the number of red links is down to three. I've eliminated the one for Norton. Currently it is linked to the Walter Kidde article. I intend on turning that into a joint article for ease of reading. The only ones I saw red left were, Irving Maidmen and Millrift, PA. I don't know much about Maidmen, other then he almost ran the Q right into the ground, so I'm leaving his article alone for someone else to tackle. 
Now that the Mets are eliminated from the postseason, I'm going to go full blast on the Kidde/Norton/WB&E articles.3D jonny 13:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah after seeing Chavez throw that HR back into the park I was ecstatic.. then they lost and.. yeah.  Huge Mets fan.  But yes, much more free time now at least.  About Mill Rift - there should be some WikiProject about PA towns, and they should have made an article - I'll see if I can dig up info.Kether83 11:58, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Henry Norton Bio 

message: I finished the presidents list. I forgot a few years ago, my uncle gave me a copy of an old book that covers the history of the railroad up until 1939. He gave me the re-issued version from 1980. It had a list of the missing president needed to complete the list. I only used NYS&W presidents. Previous railroads and Erie presidents were left off. 3D jonny 19:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of Presidents done. 

message: I changed Moodna to Starucca Viaduct. Under the original haulage agreement, NYS&W did cross Moodna. With the trackage rights, they join the old Grahm line west of Moodna. They only cross Starucca now. 3D jonny 12:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just looked on Google Earth at where Moodna is.. wow, DUH.  Thanks for catching that one hehKether83 13:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor course correction