Talk:Entheogen/Archive 1

message: I have deleted the newly added point-form list of objections to the broad use of the term because IMO it is more difficult to follow, repeats itself, and misses essential information. I think this is too complex a topic to extoll in point form. An accurate represention would be a kind of nested point-counterpoint tree, which is a mess (just have a look at Arguments for and against drug prohibition!) I have pasted back in the original text that was arrived at after a tortuous iterative process to arrive at consensus. -- Rkundalini 03:35, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Objections to the broad sense of the term 

message: :"Some proponents of the entheogenic truth have realized [or been revealed to] the significance of great biblical finds in the ancient Levitical texts of the Torah. The Book of Exodus points in a direction that deserves some attention. Chapter 16 defines a small round substance or crust (cap?) that grows in a pattern like hoarfrost (stem?), which melts in the sun, tastes of honey (preservative), comes when the dew lifts, and will be a proving factor as to wether we will walk in Truth. Somehow it is white and flakey (crushed stem) and like corriander seed (cap?). Upon critical inspection manna seems to be none other than the peace offering of the hippies Psilocybe Cubensis. Also the name of The Savior in the language he spoke, Yeshua, points in this direction in several ways. Firstly there is seven tops. The number seven is found in the text of The Bible more than any other number and according to Three Pillars of Zen [zen being the number seven in Hebrew! See Psalm 119.] The seventh state of consciousness (which even by definition is trippy) is in fact manas. Coincidence? Not on Gods time."
wow. I don't think it can. This wreaks of tripper-epiphany. Let's try and keep these rants out of the encyclopedia people, unless you want to write an article in which you, in an appropriate fashion, summarize someone elses rant (i.e. a published theory) and not present it as...this. Shaggorama 21:07, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Can this recent edit be re-edited to be encyclopedic?

message: An attempt was made to de-POV the inclusion of the term Psychonaut... but it was a bit long-winded and IMO the mention of the term should be eliminated entirely. If anything it could go in psychedelic since its etymology it refers to a psychological rather than religious view of these experiences. I also removed the newly-added NPOV tag -- I'm assuming it pertained to the Psychonaut paragraph even though no explanation was placed here on the talk page. --Russell E 21:35, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: it is up to you to address it formally if you tagged it.  what original research is in this article?  what exactly is pov?  i don't see it.  --Heah talk 22:52, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: oh! didn't see your post above.  i'll go read that.  sorry!  --Heah talk 22:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Psychonaut 

message: Perhaps the following was the reason for the original research tag? I have removed it.. if these points have been published elsewhere then they could be replaced in a more appropriate (new) section, with references and further supporting material.
:The Rig Veda, the first of the Vedas and the oldest known religious document, has many reverent references to the Soma sacrament, and has stories that tie the archetypal image of the serpent to Soma, which teaches man of the divine. This theme was arguably picked up by the author of Genesis to describe the fall of man. In the third chapter of Genesis, a fruit that teaches the knowledge of good and evil (a "plant teacher") was offered to Eve by the serpent.
 
:In the broadest sense, this was also the first instance of a plant that teaches being recorded in the religious history of man. The idea of a "plant teacher" has since been a staple of indigenous shamanic lore worldwide, and is often acompanied (and even offered) by the serpent in said lore.
--Russell E 01:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, they have been widely published by various authors. --Viriditas 02:05, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research? 

message: I've noticed that entheogen has been incorrectly defined.  The proper definition should be that of those who proposed the definition, not by playing guessing games or pointing out technicalities in Greek translation:
 We, therefore, propose a new term that would be appropriate for
 describing states of shamanic and ecstatic possession induced by
 ingestion of mind-altering drugs. In Greek the word entheos means
 literally "god (theos) within," and was used to describe the condition
 that follows when one is inspired and possessed by the god that has
 entered one's body.
C. A. P. Ruck, J. Bigwood, D. Staples, J. Ott & R. G. Wasson 1979 "Entheogens," in  Journal of Psychedelic Drugs 11, p. 145ff
This is the proper definition, not the current one of "in God".  --Thoric 19:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. If it turns out that the Ruck et al interpretation of the greek roots is questionable, then it should remain (seeing the article is about the term as coined by them) but a note added to this effect, rather than outright changing it all as was previously doon.--Russell E 21:36, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I discovered that this change came in on July 26th, 2004 by user/ip 82.83.144.232.  Unfortunately nobody noticed the change in meaning as it came in with detailing on the Greek roots, but the end result was essentially claiming that the original meaning (as coined by Ruck and others) was incorrect.  This meaning drift has unfortunately propagated to other sites (www.entheogen.com for example). --Thoric 22:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition POV 

message: Shouldn't there also be a section detailing drugs which are generally labelled as "recreational", such as LSD or MDMA, but which are sometimes used for spiritual/religious purposes? These chemicals lack the long histories of traditional entheogens (though it should be noted that LSD-like chemicals have been used as entheogens in Europe for millennia) but do now have well-established (albeit young) spiritual traditions and beliefs surrounding them. Both LSD and MDMA were used for purposes of spiritual or personal development years before they became more widely known as "recreational" drugs.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tavdy79 (talk • contribs) 21:14, July 25, 2006 (UTC)
:This is a bit of a fuzzy area.  Technically shamans are able to make use of modern entheogens as well as plant entheogens (as has been shown through experiments in providing psilocybin containing capsules to mushroom using shamans), the problem lies in the accepted legitimacy of modern "LSD religions".  There is enough difficulty in getting governments to respect aboriginal use of plant entheogens without adding to the confusion by adding more recent substances to the list.  Ideally entheogens should be restricted to plants which have been documented to have had long standing spiritual use among aboriginal peoples.  Use of modern substances in a similar context should be kept to such articles as Neoshamanism and Psychonaut.  --Thoric 22:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that although it is easy to see how the above mentioned substances (LSD and MDMA) could be applied in an "entheogenic way", it would be inappropriate to create the proposed section as it falls short of having been described in the reference literature on entheogens. I have applied the term "entheogenic practice" in the article on Autofellatio because I see a likeness in spirit although this "practice" does not involve any substance, however, I would oppose autofellatio being described in the article Entheogen with no references in source literature. __meco 13:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New section proposal - "Modern Entheogens" 

message: I moved this recent anonymous edit here: "The term "entheodelic" is a common substitute, and carries less of the "hallucinogenic" baggage than does "entheogen", as the latter suggests that the substance has generated or created the Spiritual presence, while the former, entheo (God/Spirit) delic (revealing,) suggests that the Spirit was revealed by the experience." A personal hobby-horse, apparently. "Entheo-delic" is not even a rare substitute. Its -delic coining actually returns the "psychedelic" baggage successfully avoided by entheogen. Google it, to see that "entheodelic" is not commonly employed in professional discourse. --Wetman 00:42, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Portmanteau]] coining: "entheo-delic" 

message: I'd like to propose moving the embedded list of entheogens to the talk page until work is put forth to clean up the list with prose. I would like to keep the list around as it appears to be a good resource to be explored later, however, I think it detracts from the flow of the article as it currently stands. What is the normal policy on this? --Tylerdmace 14:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. The style seems to be to prefer prose to lists. I've gone ahead and removed the list.TheRingess (talk) 16:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Noting that there is a separate listing page at List Of Entheogens.Shamanchill (talk) 03:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Embedded list of entheogens & proper cleanup 

message: The first sentence asserts that "entheogen" is a neologism, but the third sentence directly contradicts this by saying that it was used as a term of praise by (presumably ancient) Greeks. Which is it?
70.48.178.249 20:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a neologism; the other is mythobabble— hard to keep straight. --Wetman 07:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that the definition of Greek root word gen, being "becomming", should also be added. See note below on original definition. Shamanchill (talk) 03:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: Is this an assertion that safrole is the long-sought unidentified soma, and furthermore, that literary references to soma date to 8000 BC? This is familiar material from New Age bulletin-board chat, but not encyclopedic. --Wetman (talk) 22:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Safrole = soma" identified in "10,000 year-old" [[veda]]s?" 

message: Anybody knowing what should be the meaning of "[UDV/NAC]"? It appears (to me) do be completely unclear... --Antifumo (talk) 01:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: UDV is short for União do Vegetal, and NAC refers to the Native American Church. This is why full names need to be used, but in this case, it doesn't even belong as a parenthetical. —Viriditas | Talk 01:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If these terms are to remain, they should at least be linked, no? I also think that they're a good practical example for the article, although they may not belong in the preamble. Shamanchill (talk) 02:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes, this is total rubbish.  "phenethylamine" and "tryptamine" are not "pathways"; they are families of chemicals.  In this context both activate the same "pathway", the serotonin 5HT2A receptor.  Salvinorin A is a good example of an entheogen which is completely different from these in chemical structure, pharmocological activity, and subjective effects. I've edited the lead accordingly. C1c27821 (talk) 05:05, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  General notes 

message: The original paper by Wasson et al reads like this:
:We ... propose a new term that would be appropriate for describing states of shamanic and ecstatic possession induced by the ingestion of mind-altering drugs. In Greek, the word entheos means literally 'god (theos) within' and was used to describe the condition that follows when one is inspired and possessed by the god that has entered one's body. It was applied to prophetic seizures, erotic passion and artistic creation, as well as to those religious rites in which mystical states were experienced through the ingestion of substances that were transubstantial with the deity. In combination with the Greek root gen-, which denotes the action of 'becomming', this term results in the word we are proposing: entheogen. ... In a strict sense, only those vision-producing drugs that can be shown to have figured in shamanic or religious rites would be designated 'entheogens', but in a looser sense, the term could also be applied to other drugs, both natural and artificial, that induce alterations in consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional entheogens"
I think that this article should take the "looser sense" of the definition to include modern spiritual aids such as chemical DMT, Ketamine, LSD and others, as "ritually ingested" by Dr. John C. Lilly, Marsha Moore, and others. This also relates to my comments on broadening the neurological definition quoted from Shulgin above. Also making this note part of List of Entheogens talk page, as we'll need to settle on a hard definition on what to include, and I don't think that chemical substances should be excluded, just as the coiners of this term didn't. Shamanchill (talk) 03:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original Wasson paper definition 

message: Regarding this:
"Also, it has been suggested that the Māori of New Zealand used the biologically related "Māori Kava" or kawakawa (Macropiper excelsum) as an entheogen (Bock 2000)."
Which links to this - http://www.entheology.org/edoto/anmviewer.asp?a=67&z=5
If you read the linked article, it indicates there's no evidence that it *was* ever used as an entheogen by the maori, it just presents a base theory that according on the chemical reports, it could be used as an entheogen.
Additionally, the theory it presents that there is no evidence due to the suppression of Tohunga doesn't seem *particularly* relevent to discussion of entheogen use, considering this was pre-drug war culture - there would have been less reason for entheogen herbal knowledge to be specifically repressed when other sorts of herbal knowledge weren't.
To our knowledge, there are no known uses of entheogens by Maori.
Finally, even with that chemistry reports indicating it might be usable, I can't seem to find even any modern reports of anyone actually 'tripping' on it? 
(And I do know people who regularly drink Kawakawa tea)
Actually, the chemistry theory appears to be bunk, as this toxicology report contraindicates it: http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/Regulatory/CompMed/PIL/IJEACCM/1/Macropiper%20excelsum%20(Kawakawa).pdf
"The amount of myristicin in M. excelsum leaf is comparatively small, and the maximum recommended dose of the sponsored product would contain less than 100mg of myristicin, compared with the reported human oral TDLo of 342 mg for a 60 kg person (at which dose 'wakefulness' is the only behavioural effect reported)."
TDLo being the "lowest published toxic dose", ie, at toxic doses, it still wouldn't be having any effect.
Unless anyone can provide any evidence of Maori entheogen use, of which we currently have none, I'm removing the passage.
-- 222.154.238.36 (talk) 00:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maori non-use of Entheogens 

message: Someone plonked the following into the middle of the cultures section, which I've removed. Wrong place, I have no idea where it's from, and I have no interest in cleaning it up. But if someone else wants to:
"
World Entheogens, Psychoactives and Ethnobotanicals-
Psychoactive and/or medicinal Cacti-
Ariocarpus agavoides
Ariocarpus fissuratus
Ariocarpus kotschoubeyanus
Ariocarpus retusus
Astrophytum asterias
Astrophytum myriostigma 
Aztekium ritterii
Carnegiea gigantea
Coryphantha compacta
Coryphantha elephantidens
Coryphantha macromeris
Echinocactus platyacanthus (Echinocactus visnaga)
Echinocereus salm-dyckianus (Echinocereus scheeri)
Echinocereus polyacanthus 
Epithalantha micromeris
Lophophora williamsii
Lophophora diffusa
Mammillaria grahamii
Mammillaria heyderi
Mammillaria (Dolichothele) longimamma
Mammillaria pectinifera (Solisia pectinata)
Mammillaria (Mamillopsis) senilis 
Mammillaria sonorensis (Mammillaria craigii)
Matucana madisoniorum
Neoraimondia macrostibas
Obregonia denegrii
Pachycereus pecten-aboriginum
Pachycereus pringlei
Pelecyphora aselliformis
Strombocactus disciformis
Turbinicarpus pseudomacrochele
Turbinicarpus pseudopectinatus (Pelecyphora pseudopectinata)
Trichocereus species
“Ayahuasca” Admixtures and Associated Botanicals-
Teliostachya lanceolata 
Alternanthera lehmannii 
Iresine sp. 
Himatanthus sucuuba 
Malouetia tamaquarina 
Mandevilla scabra 
Tabernaemontana sp. 
Ilex guayusa 
Montrichardia arborescens 
Mansoa alliacea 
Tabebuia heteropoda 
Tabebuia incana 
Tabebuia sp. 
Tynnanthus panurensis 
Cavanillesia hylogeiton 
Cavanillesia umbellata 
Ceiba pentandra 
Chorisia insignis 
Chorisia speciosa 
Quararibea spp.
Tournefortia angustifolia 
Epiphyllum sp. 
Opuntia sp. 
Anthodiscus pilosus 
Maytenus ebenifola 
Carludovica divergens 
Lomariopsis japurensis 
Erythroxylum spp.
Alchornea castaneifolia 
Hura crepitans 
Gnetum nodiflorum 
Clusia sp. 
Tovomita sp. 
Ocimum micranthum 
Couroupita guianensis 
Bauhinia guianensis 
Caesalpinia echinata 
liandra angustifolia 
Campsiandra laurifolia 
Cedrelinga castaneiformis 
Erythrina glauca 
Erythrina poeppigiana 
Pithecellobium laetum 
Sclerobium setiferum 
Vouacapoua americana 
Phrygilanthus eugenioides
Phtirusa pyrifolia 
Diplopterys cabrerana 
Mascagnia psilophylla 
Stigmaphyllon fulgens 
Uncaria guianensis 
Uncaria tomentosa 
Calathea veitchiana 
Abuta grandifolia 
Coussapa tessmannii 
Ficus sp. 
Virola sp. 
Cabomba aquatica
Petiveria alliaceae 
Piper sp. 
Triplaris surinamensis 
Pontederia cordata 
Calycophyllum spruceanum 
Capirona decoriticans 
Guettarda ferox 
Psychotria spp.
Psychotria viridis 
Rudgea retifolia 
Sabicea amazonensis 
Paullinia yoco 
Lygodium venustum 
Scoparia dulcis 
Brugmansia spp.
Brunfelsia spp.
Capsicum spp. 
Iochroma fuchsioides 
Juanulloa ochracea 
Nicotiana spp.
Cornutia odorata 
Vitex triflora 
Rinorea viridiflora 
“Cimora” Brew Plants and Admixtures-
Trichocereus spp.
Neoraimondia macrostibas
Pedilanthus tithymaloides 
Isotoma longiflora 
Brugmansia spp.
Iresine spp.
Datura spp.
The Baneful Botanicals-
Old World-
Atropa belladonna ~ “Nightshade” or “Belladonna”
Digitalis purpura ~ "Foxglove"
Atropa mandragora (Mandragora officinalis) ~ “Mandrake”
Hyoscyamus niger ~ “Henbane”
Tabernatnthe Iboga ~ “Iboga Root” 
Amanita muscaria ~ “Fly Agaric”
Helleborus niger ~ “Hellebore”
Acorus calamus ~ “Sweet Flag”
Peganum harmala ~ “Syrian Rue” 
New World-
Ariocarpus retusus
Brugmansia spp.
Datura spp. 
Brunfelsia spp.
Saphora secundiflora ~ “Mescal Bean” 
Pernettya furens and Pernettya parvifolia ~"Hierba Loca"
Methysticodendron amesianum ~ “Snake Intoxicant” 
Iochroma fuchsioides ~ “Borrachera”
Latua pubiflora ~ “Arbol De Los Brujos”
Nicotiana spp. ~ “Tobacco”
Xochipilli/Macuilxochitl "Prince of Flowers" Statue Botanicals-
Psilocybe aztecorum ~ “Mushrooms”
Nicotiana tabacum ~ “Tobacco”
Rivea corymbosa ~ “Ololiuqui”
Heimia salicifolia and/or Heimia myrtifolia ~ “Sun-Opener” or “Sinicuichi”
Quararibea funebris ~ “Cacahuaxochitl”
And one unidentified flower suspected to be a Brugmansia spp. or Datura spp.
Entheogens-
Banisteriopsis caapi ~ “Vine of the Dead” or “Ayahuasca”
Psychotria viridis 
Psilocybian Mushrooms ~ “Teonanacatl”
Ipomoea violacea ~ “Tlitliltzin”
Rivea corymbosa ~ “Ololiuqui”
Argyreia nervosa ~ “Woodrose”
Salvia Divinorum ~ "Pipilzintzintli"
Trichocereus spp. ~ “San Pedro”
Lophophora williamsii ~ “Peyote”
Tabernanthe iboga ~ “Iboga”
Diplopterys cabrerana ~ or “Ayahuasca”
Heimia salicifolia and Heimia myrtifolia ~ “Sinicuichi” or “Sun-Opener”
Mimosa hostilis ~ “Jurema”
Amanita muscaria ~ “Fly Agaric”
Pseudo-Entheogens-
Cannabis sativa ~ “Marijuana” 
Brugmansia candida; sanguinea; aurea; vulcanicola ~ “Tree Datura”
Nymphaea caerulea ~ “Blue Lotus” 
Nelumbo nucifera ~ “Scared Lotus”
Acorus calamus ~ “Sweet Flag”
Peganum harmala ~ “Syrian Rue” 
Psychoactives-
Passiflora incarnata ~ “Passion-Flower”
Erythroxylum spp. ~ “Coca Leaf”
Papaver somniferum ~ “Opium Poppies”
Nicotiana spp. ~ “Tobacco”
Mitragyna speciosa ~ “Kratom”
Humulus lupulus ~ “Hops”
Silene capensis ~ “Root of the White Ways”
Calea zacatechichi ~ “Bitter Dream Herb”
Catha edulis ~ “Khat”
Areca catechu and Piper betle ~ "Betel Nut" and “Betel Leaf”
Leonotis leonurus ~ “Wild Dagga” 
Sceletium tortuosum ~ “Kanna”
Duboisia hopwoodii ~ "Pituri"
Pedicularis densiflora ~ “Indian Warrior”
Piper methysticum ~ “Kava Kava”
Ethnobotanicals-
Camellia sinensis ~ “Tea”
Theobroma cacao ~ “Cacao”or “Cocoa” or “Chocolate” 
Ilex Paraguariensis ~ “Yerba Mate”
Ephedra spp. ~ “Ma Huang”
Lactuca virosa ~ “Wild Lettuce Opium”
Scutellaria lateriflora ~  “Skullcap”
Valeriana officinalis ~ “Valerian Root”
Verbena hastate   “Blue Vervain” 
Pausinystalia yohimbe ~ “Yohimbe” Or (Corynanthe yohimbe)
Myristica fragrans ~ “Nutmeg”
Panax spp. ~ “Ginseng” 
Artemisia absinthium ~ “Wormwood”
Aspalathus linearis “Rooibos”
Leonurus sibiricus ~ “Motherwort” 
Gingko biloba ~ “Gingko”
Rholdia rosea ~ “Golden Root”
Canavalia maritima
Sida acuta
Zornia latifolia 
Verbascum blattaria "Moth Mullein"
Osha Root
Yerbe Santa
Lobelia inflata ~ "Indian Tobacco"
~Polygala sibirica and Polygala tenuifolia "Taoist Memory enhancer"
Understudied Entheogens, Psychoactives and Other Ethnobotanicals-
Quararibea funebris ~ “Cacahuaxochitl”
Lagochilus inebrians ~ “Turkish Inebriating Mint” 
Oncidium ceboletta,  Cypripedium calceolus and other psychoactive orchids.
Pancratium trianthum ~ “Kwashi”
Kaempferia galanga ~ “Galanga”
Lycoperdon mixtecorum and Lycoperdon marginotum ~ “Puffballs”
Virola calophylla, Virola colophylloidea, and Virola theiodora ~ “Virola” 
(Mashi-Hiri) Justicia pectoralis
Anadenanthera peregrina ~ “Yopo”
Anadenanthera colubrina
Tetrapteris methistica ~ “Painted Caapi”
Methysticodendron amesianum ~ “Snake Intoxicant” (Deadly Poisonous)
Petunia violacea ~ “Shanin”
Tagetes lucida ~  “Mexican Tarragon”
Mucuna pruriens Velvetbeans; Cowhage
Tanaecium nocturnum- aphrodisiac
~ Cestrum laevigatumn 
~Coleus Blumei and Coleus Pumilus
~Cymbopogon densiflorus- causes dreams which foretell the future.
~Maquira sclerophylia ~ “Rapa dos Indios”
~Helichrysum foetidum- Zulu Trance Smoke
~Scirpus atrovirens - very powerful Mexican herb said to cure insanity
Acacia maidenii
Datura spp.
Sassafras albidum
SHANSHI (Coriaria thymifolia)
Argemone Mexicana ~ "Prickly Poppy"
HELICHRYSUM FOETIDUM - Compositae (Straw Flower)
M.senilis, M.heyderii, M.craigii,
M.grahamii, M.micromeris.
Synsepalum dulcificum ~"Miracle Fruit"
TAIQUE (Desfontainia hookeri)
KEULE (Gomortega keule)
Iochroma
Voacanga africana
Desfontainia spinosa
Bufo alvarius
Add toads and animals
Catharanthus roseus (Madagascar Periwinkle)
Add other “interesting plants”!
"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.154.238.36 (talk) 23:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plant C&P from 'Cultures' section 

message: Quick comment, 
I'm just surprised that Carlos Castaneda's name doesn't appear in the literature portion of the article.  i know, I'm not contributing much in the manner of info and text, but if I remember correctly, he's written more about entheogens than any two authors combined.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.221.49.114 (talk) 13:48, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Issue resolved. According to Psilocybin#History, Castenada's works revolved around fictional stories, whereas Psilocybe mushroom cultivation was developed by Terence McKenna, his brother, and his wife. --Notmyhandle (talk) 20:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Entheogens in Literature 

message: One or more editors inserted unsourced commentary in the form of parentheticals throughout the terminology section.  I'm going through this section and removing them.  If anyone wants to discuss this, please do so here.  Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 02:21, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I may have been responsible for some, if not all, of that. The text is still not as accurate or precise as a terminology section should be, so let's go through it. Currently written is "...but entheogen implies neither that something is created nor that that which is experienced is within the user...", which tries to address my point, but fails. This addition is, in fact, not even true. Two sentences onwards, the prefix is discussed, but not the suffix, which forms the basis of my point. The suffix indicates the production or generation of something (genesthai?). The suffix was basically lifted from "hallucinogen" at the time, an interesting oxymoron in itself, but that's another rant. Also, the definition given here is not correct. According to Ott, lit. "becoming divine within", however "genesthai" is not "becoming" in this context but "generating" (...divine within). May we fix this now?Jace1 (talk) 21:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you rewrite it here and discuss your addition? Viriditas (talk) 22:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry if I'm not communicating well.  Let me try again: Please place the full text you want to see in the article below this comment.  The text should appear exactly as you prefer it.  That way, I can see what you are talking about rather than just your comments.  Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 10:14, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This issue hasn't been resolved.  Jace1, Viriditas is asking you to re-write the sentence here so the new version can be revised. --Notmyhandle (talk) 20:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of parentheticals 

message: :Rather, it is the precise characterization and quantification of these experiences, and of religious experience in general, that is not yet developed.
Yep, and pigs will fly, real soon now. Viriditas (talk) 08:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Issue resolved: sentence removed as part of an edit made on July 13, 2009. --Notmyhandle (talk) 20:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quantification of thought 

message: I am proposing to do a major update of the page, in order to introduce updated terminology presented by Greg Kasarik at the Entheogenesis Australis Conference of 2009 and drawn from the Conference Journal, which is available in hard copy, but not online. 
I also intend to include reference to Dr David Caldicott's unpublished research into the Australian Entheogenic community, the raw data for which can be found here: http://www.entheo.net/EGA07survey.pdf.
Finally, I propose to include reference to the Entheogenisis Australis conferences, of which seven have taken place in Australia since 2003.  MysticNorth2010 (talk) 09:22, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds interesting.  I just left a welcome message on your talk page with links to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.  You may want to take a look or not.  We can't really use raw, unpublished data unless we are quoting it without interpretation and it is discussed or referenced in published sources.  Otherwise, we run the risk of engaging in original research.  Let me know how I can help. Viriditas (talk) 09:45, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major update proposed

message: Although in practice the two cover much different topics, in the page names at least, both the Religion and drugs page and this Entheogens page both cover the same topic. I propose they somehow be merged.--makeswell 23:50, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is certainly an overlap, but on the one hand, religion and drugs is a subset of the history of religion, whereas entheogen is a subset of the history of drug use, so they could be viewed as two distinct topics.  It's hard to say what needs to be done at this point, but I agree, we need to consider doing something. Viriditas (talk) 05:16, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

text: These have some minor overlap but are entirely different topics.  Each article should be expanded.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.133.166.140 (talk) 20:48, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge [[Entheogen]] and [[Religion and drugs]] 

message: The article says "Spiritual effects of psychedelic compounds have been demonstrated scientifically" by an experiment in which drugged students reported religious experiences. As the paper puts it, "the experience facilitated by psychedelic drugs, such as LSD, psilocybin, and mescaline, can be similar or identical to the experience described by the mystics of all ages, cultures, and religions". But does "Spiritual" mean from beyond the physical world, or only a perception of coming from beyond the physical world? The former is how the article's sentence is most likely to be interpreted, but the latter is what was "demonstrated scientifically". It makes a difference. Educated materialists know that people often believe they have encountered a non-physical world when they are drugged, dreaming or dying, but materialists attribute such experiences to brain chemistry, not spirits; one more such experience wouldn't prove anything to them. So should it say "Effects of psychedelic compounds that are reported as religious have been demonstrated scientifically"? Art LaPella (talk) 19:59, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "Spiritual" in this context does not mean "beyond the physical world"; it actually means quite the opposite, as in no separation from the physical world, i.e. being in and of the world at the same time.  The hallmark of this experience is what is often described as a loss of ego identity and the feeling of oneness, like a drop of rain merging into the ocean, or a fetus in the womb where there is no separation between child and mother; the word communion is often used to describe this experience.  The confusion over terms like spiritual versus the physical world as you call it, stems from the hidden nature of the oneness that is revealed by the entheogenic experience or other spiritual practices.  We like to call these things "spiritual" (a silly term) only because as a society, we haven't accepted that the way we see our personal identity as separate from others is false and yet necessary.  Other ways of expressing this type of spirituality include pantheism and cosmic consciousness.  While it is certainly true that brain chemistry acts as a catalyst for this experience, insight is only achieved through the emergent realization of ones relationship to things inside and outside of ones own mind, hence the term psychedelic, or "mind manifesting".  It should be stressed that one does not need any drugs to get to this point, and many, many people get there without ever taking them.  It is essentially the difference between sudden and gradual awakening.  Scientific skeptics like Sam Harris (see Sam Harris (author)#Spirituality) understand the importance of exploring and encouraging these spiritual values without needing or requiring religion of any kind. Viriditas (talk) 11:14, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Although quite possibly valid information from a "truth" perspective, this is hardly information that would help in improving the present article, and I would suggest it rather impinges on WP:NOTAFORUM. __meco (talk) 13:05, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

text: I've changed the phrasing to more accurately reflect the relevant findings. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 14:03, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demonstrated scientifically 

message: I am afraid that I do not understand why citations are needed when dealing with fictional literature.  The author of the article clearly put in the title and author of the book.  I can understand why a citation is needed when a thought is put forth as fact in the real world, but not in fiction, again, the title of the book and author should be citation enough.  In my way of thinking this is not scholarly nor helpful, it is just plain pedantry.
Katmandan (talk) 21:26, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: perhaps I'm wrong, but the rationale seems to be that we should be referring to a secondary source that discusses the literature in the manner stated, otherwise it's WP:OR. At the very least a page number would be useful, for example, we read: "Control of the supply of melange was crucial to the Empire, as it was necessary for, among other things, faster than light navigation." says who? if one has read Dune, one knows this is true, if not, how does one confirm the factuality of this statement? telling the reader where to look in Dune would maybe be a start, but a secondary source that provides an overview of the Dune universe and mentions this would be better still. --Semitransgenic (talk) 21:41, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Citations are necessary for us to keep the pages of Wikipedia factually accurate. If the author of that reference to dune was incorrect, then we would be providing incorrect information about Dune.  Using a quote from the book would be easiest, but a secondary source is adequate as well. --Notmyhandle (talk) 19:38, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Citation needed" in Literature 

message: Although the Archaeological Record Section is obviously very incomplete, I just added a link to an article that invokes elements of the archaeological, mythological and linguistic record to support its assertion that the Venus of Hohle Fels was sculpted to personify the developmental stage of an Amanita as the mushroom's, pregnant mother giving birth to the mature mushroom. In addition, I added a bit to the description of the Tassili glyphs, and the Scythian use of kannibis aka marijuana. Berlant (talk) 12:46, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the "cave painting of a man with bee-like features covered with mushrooms, dating to 8000 BP" in Tassili n'Ajjer, can you confirm that no evidence—aside from the cave paintings—has ever been found verifying mushroom use in this area, presumably due to climate change which has altered the landscape? Viriditas (talk) 14:20, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

text: Dennis McKenna's late brother Terence suggested that the spores could very well have survived and might be found at Tassili with the right equipment. He also said that no scientist has ever attempted to look because the area is off limits (due to political reasons) to most, if not all, researchers. Viriditas (talk) 11:43, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:   Archaeological record