Talk:Macedonian language/Archive 2

message: Hello, we may argue as crazy. J live in Macedonia and J think that we better get to do something together rather thatn argue. 
Can`t you see that the Great powers of 20th century GREATLY DESIRED THAT WE FIGHT EACH OTHER AS DOGS, and dogs you are if you continue to fall in their trap.
Have you read the Treaty of Njoi. Those b*st*rds split our lands in a totally incompetent (or a very competetent manner if they wanted us to fight later) manner. Indeed every border ever determined by the so called "Powers" was later a reason for a war.
And while once again they are playing their cards we are in fight. And why should we be strong, the bridge between Europe and Asia, this strategic place should be week, so that it gets exploited for pennies by the western wolrd.
Look at the western media for example. Once a media agency will say ".... so according to us the Bulgarian dialect spoken in FYROM..." and then the very same agency will confirm "....written in the Macedonian language...."
Fools, you are behaving as "a dog that is told to sit, and in the same time is told to stand up, so it doesn`t know what to do".
Care about our progress, history will show what are the languages. 
You get to understand each other - GREAT! Union means power.
If you do not agree with me, have a nice evening listening to BBC news: "...the Macedonian language is spoken today......" 1hr later "The Bulgarian dialekt called Macedonian language...."
J personally say: "get together and laugh at the miserables who are so trying to separate us"
:The Macedonian language is based on a former Bulgarian dialect as indisputably as it is a separate language nowadays. VMORO
::Which only confirms that it is just an argument about history at this point as the above (unfortunately unsigned but very insightful) poster said. Really there is so much that unites us in the Balkans, why should we argue about the few things that separate us?mitkouwcad
::I don't know your nationality but I'll assume you're a Macedonian, so: While you continue with your crusade on inventing history and falsifying linguistic and historical evidence, we'll continue not to recognise your language. A compromise means concessions from both sides, not from one of them. Bulgaria offered as early as the 1960s a joint treatment of the works of Macedonian-born writers and publicists before 1944, as well as of the language/dialects and history of Macedonia (also before 1944) as of Macedono-Bulgarian (or vice versa). You refused and kept on with the previous attitude, the extension of which is the politic of the present Serboman government, as well. As much as it gets. You continue, we continue. VMORO
::No, I happen to be Bulgarian. I just don't understand why we should be so contrary. Macedonians have it pretty hard anyway, and so do we. Please read the original post (not by me) again. It is the closest this discussion has gotten to the truth. As Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Mitkouwcad
::My only answer to this is that you either do not know what you are talking about, or you are completely spineless. По-ниско от водата, по-тихо от тревата, а? Типично по български, да превием врат и да се надупим. Ти в кой свят живееш? Говори ги тези на някой друг, съобщения на мен повече не ми пращай VMORO
Fyromian language is the Yugoslavian version of Bulgarian language
made by TITO 1945!
Vergina 09:58, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no some kind of "Fyromian language" in the world. And Tito did not create the Macedonian language, it was spoken before Tito, in Bulgaria. A proof of this are my older relatives who were talking Macedonian before Tito. As for the similarities with Bulgarian, yes they are similar, but EVERY Slavic language is similar to another Slavic language (that's why they are in the same language family). We may also say that Bulgarian is very similar to Russian, too (especially its alphabet). Bomac 10:12, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Pall, I think that you are talking about the Ancient Macedonian language, aren't you? Well, you are confusing yourself then. Cheers, Bomac 09:03, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arguing about whether Macedonian is a dilect of Bulgarian 

message: How are the Macedonian Ф, Ѓ, and Ќ pronuonced. It says in the article that Ф is pronounced as /v/, but not /f/ as I think it should be. Can Ѓ also be pronounced as /dʑ/ (voiced alveolo-palatal affricate) and Ќ as /tɕ/ (voiceless alveolo-palatal affricate)? Some sources also mention this pronunciation. --Hippophaë 20:11, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation of Macedonian &#1060;, &#1027;, and &#1036;

message: Dear all
I am writting about the issue of Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Slavs (like Wikipedia calls the Macedonians) and the problem between Macedonia and Greece about the term Macedonia.
I am aware that this issue is largely discussed here, at Wikipedia, and Wikipedia claims that it is trying to take a neutral side. But, that is not the case. Wikipedia is everything except neutral in this question. In the following lines I will explain you why.
From the text in Wikipedia most of the people will conclude that Macedonian nation appeared during the World War 2 and Tito was the one who 'invented' us. The family of my wife (she is Mexican) read this and asked me is it truth. That was actually the first time I read what Wikipedia says about my nation, which was a direct reason for my reaction. 
My grandfather is born in 1911th. Yesterday I had a talk with him. He took a part in the strugle for independence since 1925th and he took a part in the 2nd world war. He is alive and personal prove that Wikipedia is full of bullshit and lies about our origin. He spent half of his life proving and fighting for that. He was shot 3 times, all 3 from the Bulgarians who wanted to ocupy Macedonia in the Balkan wars and in the WW1 and WW2. Just a 1 min with him will show you how many lies you suport in Wikipedia.
I tried to edit some of the text few days ago, but everithing I wrote was deleted. And all I wrote were facts.
Fact 1. Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, like ONLY Wikipedia, Greece and Cyprus calls us) is the only nation of many living in the area concentrated inside the borders of the geographical region of Macedonia.
This is a pure fact, something that you can even find on the CIA web page. Can you give any fact to deny my fact? If you can not, why you erased it from Wikipedia?
Fact 2. Republic of Macedonia has diplomatic relations with about 150 countries in the world. Wikipedia says that "at least 20" countries recognize Macedonia under the name Macedonia. Guess what? That number is more than 100. And this is an officially confirmed by our ministery for foreighn affairs.
Fact 3. Wikipedia says that my country Contraversialy calls itself Republic of Macedonia. This is a pure example of taking a side in the problem. Why you don't say that Greece contraversialy deny us the use of the name Macedonia?
If you intended to be neutral, just write that we have the naming problem with Greece, but do not call my name "contraversial"!!!
Fact 4. While explaining about the antient Macedonia, its kings etc. you highly support the claim for their Greek origin. I can give you 1000s of facts that that is not truth and I beleive that some Greek guy can give you 1000s facts that those claims are truth. That was 2400 years ago and there is no chanse for us to know the real situation. We can only guess.
But, when you give the Greek suported version, why you ignore the version suported by the newaged Macedonians? In this moment I can give you 10 names of internationally respected scientist supporting our theory. If you are neutral, why you ignore it?
Fact 5. Wikipedia says that the Turkish Empire were calling us Bulgarians. Strange, because the Turks were recognizing the uniqueness of our nation since the moment they occupied the teritory of Macedonia. Actually, the Turkish history archives are the biggest prove of our existance, history and culture. Did anyone of you ever read anything from those archives? Even on the birth certificate of Khemal Ataturk says that he is born in Bitola, Macedonia. And his autobiography is full of memories of his childhood spend with the Macedonians.
Fact 6. Wikipedia ignores the egsodus of the Macedonian people from Greece and says they were running because they were supporters of the comunists. 1/3 of the Macedonians have origin from this part of Macedonia. They were runned away from there by force and you can find many historical proves for that. Again, big part of my family has origin from there. As a matter of fact, my grand-grand father was married to a Greek woman, my grand-grand mother. But, no matter of that, his house was burned and he was forced to run away for his life and the life of his family.
How dare you deny this? Do you know that even today my grand father is not allowed to visit Greece, because he was a kid when his family runned away from there?
Fact 7. There are about 500 000 Macedonians that live outside Macedonia, mostly in Canada, Australia, USA, Sweden etc. At least 1/3 moved there before 1930s. If we were a product of Tito, how can you explain that even they feel of Macedonian nationality? I have a family in USA which moved there in 1927th. Their ancestors (my cousins) do not even know how to talk Macedonian well. But, they still feel Macedonian. One of them is even one of the financiers of the party of the Macedonians in Bulgaria, trying to help their strugle to keep their national identity. I repeat, first time he visited Macedonia was in 1995th, far after Tito. And his family moved in USA in 1927th, far before Tito.
Fact 8. Wikipedia claims that the book of Macedonian songs by Dimitar Miladinov is actually Bulgarian. Have you maybe seen a original copy of the book, printed in Croatia? IT says clearly "Macedonian". Not to mention that the same author wrote one of the most important books in the Macedonian history "For the Macedonian issues", again printed in Croatia, where it clearly talks about the Macedonian nation and non-Bulgarian origin.
All this was simply erased from the database. I didn't erase anything when editing these pages, I support the other side and I do not want to hide their facts. But why Wikipedia wants to hide our facts, which show that we are not a product of Tito's ambitions for the Aegean Sea. In Tito's time, the Yugoslav army was far superior in the region. If he wanted the Aegean Sea, he would get it very easily.
Many things in Wikipedia are very offensive for the nowdays Macedonians. Wikipedia simply ignores us, gives us a new name and supports the theories of denial of our existance, culture and history.
I will try to give you an example that includes with Mexico. I beleive that you know that the Maya civilisation was invaded by the Spanish kingdom. Spanish were ruling Mexico for centuries and millions of Spanish people moved at Mexican teritory. Later, after the liberation war, Mexicans formed its own country.
Fact 1. Mayas were living in Mexico (same as Antique Macedonians).
Fact 2. Spanish invaded them and great number of Spanish people moved to Mexico (The Slavs moved on the theritory of Macedonia and there was no reported fights or movements of people away from the teritory where the Slavs settled).
Fact 3. Nowdays, everyone of the Mexican is aware that they are partly Spanish, but they still have Mayan origin (Wikipedia says that the people living in Republic of Macedonia are Slavs. When there was no reported resetling of the Antique Macedonians, how is possible they not to mix with the Slavs? It is a fact that the nowdays Macedonians are not same as the Antique Macedonians, but they certanly have a significant part of their genes. Same as I beleive that Greece has a part of their Genes, but they are definitly not their direct ancestors).
Fact 4. Mexican speak Spanish. Reason: The Spanish culture was superior in that time. (The Antique Macedonians accepted the Helenic culture, including a variation of the Greek language. Reason: the Helenic culture was superior in that time. Everyone who knows at least little history will know that Hellenic and Greek are not synonims. Greek is nation, Hellenic is religion/culture. USA and England both speak English, both are mostly cristians, but they are SEPARATE nations. Aren't they? Same happens to Germany and Austria, or Serbia and Croatia, or Canada and France, or Brazil and Portugal, or the rest of Latin America and Spain)
And here is a comment about the claims of the Bulgarians, that the Macedonians are actually Bulgarians.
If that is truth, I am going to kill myself. Bulgarians through the history made the worst for my nation. During the strugle of the Macedonian people for independence from the Turkish empire, at the end of the 19th and begginbing of the 20th century, the Bulgarians were the ones who killed the most of our revolutionaries, including 4 members of my close family which were members of the Macedonian revolutionary organization (VMRO). Whis is not something that I was told by Tito. My grandfather (the same grandfather from above) was in fact a member of the same organization. He personaly knew many of the revolutioners that Bulgarians claim are theirs, including 2 of the leaders: Goce Delcev and Gorce Petrov. They were Macedonians and they all gave their lives for free and independent Macedonia and they had nothing to do with Bulgaria. There was a part of them who were Bulgarians inserted in the organizations, who were actually the killers of the real Macedonian revolutioners, because it was in Bulgarian interest to weaken the organization, so they could take the lead in the organization and later put Macedonia in the hands of the Bulgarians. Thanks god, they did not succeed.
Wikipedia claims that VMRO was pro-Bulgarian and the revolutioners were Bulgarian fighters. You suposed to see the face of my 94 year old grandfather when I told him your claims.
Neurtal Wikipedia? I do not think so.
At the end I have to ask for Wikipedia NOT TO TAKE A SIDE IN THIS. I am not asking to remove the Greek and Bulgarian side of the story. But, why you ignore our claims, which are suported by many non-Greek and non-Bulgarian scientists and very largely through the web.
There are just about 2-2.5 million Macedonians around the world. We do not have enought influence and strenght as Greece has, which is much more powerful and richer country than Macedonia.
The Macedonian-Greek question is too hard and too complicated to solve. History can be interpreted in 1000 ways, especially on a teritory like the Balcany, where there are so many nations on so little space. Fortunately, DNA testings are getting more and more reliable and soon it will be possible to be used to acuratelly show the origin of our nations. I hope that then the denyal of me, my history, culture and existance will finaly stop. It is very disapointing that Wikipedia takes a part in all that.
With all the respect,
Igor Šterbinski
Skopje, Macedonia
is@on.net.mk
----
ALL the Macedonian history (the one that the Macedonians, the one that Wikipedia calls Macedonian Slavs) before the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Greek history. I am talking mostly about the Antient Macedonia. I do not claim that Macedonians (Macedonian Slavs in Wikipedia) have the exclusive right to this history. But, Greece can not have that right eighter. It is a history that this region shares and both, we (Macedonians) and Greeks have a part of our origin from those people.
In the same time ALL the Macedonian history after the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Bulgarian history. I am talking about the Wikipedia claims that in the 9th century the Macedonian Slavs got Bulgarized or assimilated by Greece, that in the 10th century Macedonia become a center of Bulgaria (which is not truth, because there are 1000s of hard proves and writtings found in Ohrid denying the Bulgarian claims), the tzar Samoil kingdom (which was everything than Bulgarian, because he had several fights with them and won in all and you can find again 1000s of proves in his fortress in Ohrod), then the Macedonian Ohrid Archbishopry which was clearly Macedonian and everything else than Bulgarian, with dressings and crowns with a completely different stile than the Bulgarian ones. Later Wikipedia claims that after 1018th Byzantine Empire makes Macedonia a Bulgarian province, but it doesn't say the reason for it (the Bulgarians were fighting at his side, so this was his reward towards them, something that will happen in the WW2, when the biggest part of Macedonia will be given to Bulgaria by the Germans. 3 of 4 sons of Samoil were actually latter killed by pro-Bulgarians Another reason is the wish of Vasili II to make a revenge towars Samoil and his people, with denying them, something that Wikipedia does NOW). Then, Wikipedia claims that the Ottoman Empire was seeing us as Bulgarians, which is completely not truth. You have incredible written archives in Turkish museums for this, so you can make a search by your own. All the Macedonian uprisings were characterised as Macedonians. Even the after-capture execution of the leaders was taking place in Skopje, the biggest town in the teritory of Macedonia and not in Sofija, which was the Bulgarian biggest town.
Wikipedia says that the following Macedonian history is Bulgarian: IMRO, Ilinden Uprising in Krusevo (where the only newspapers that write about it as Bulgarian uprising are the ones who didn't have their Journalists in the region and were using the Bulgarian sources, which in that time was already liberated, who wanted to show the uprising as their own. Why you don't read some Russian sources which have their journalists in Krusevo and Bitola at the time? Some of the grand sons and grand daughters of the revolutioners are still alive, so you might ask them what their grand-fathers were fighting for. The Krusevo Manifesto says that their goal is FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia. Why would their form their own Republic, if they wanted to be part of Bulgaria? All Wikipedia claims simply have no sence), Goce Delchev and the other revolutioners (NOTE: Goce Delchevs nephews which are still alive all spent half of their life proving Goce Delchev's belongding to the Macedonian nation. NOTE 2: Why would he fight for Macedonia's independence if he was Bulgarian? If he was Bulgarian, wouldn't he fight for unification of Macedonia and Bulgaria? Why was he betrayed by a Bulgarian, which resultet in his death in Banica 1903rd? You are corupting our biggest revolutioner, something that we keep as a saint). Wikipedia says that the "St Cyril and Methodius" high school in Solun, where Delchev studied was Bulgarian. How come, when no Bulgarians were living in Solun?...
A prove for the Bulgarian, Serb and Greek ambitions to assimilate the Macedonians and take their teritory is the deals and fights they had in the both Balcan wars. They were all exterminating the Macedonians, burning their houses and grabbing their lands, but Wikipedia completely ignores all that. I (and many more) have a living family members who were witnesses of that time.
Then, the WW2, when 2/3 of Macedonia was given to Bulgaria by the Germans. Why the hell 100000 Macedonians were fighting against the Bugarians? 25000 died in that war, again many members of my family. And Wikipedia says that we have Bulgarian origin. Why they didn't fight at the Bulgarian side if that was the case?
Wikipedia later claims that our country (Republic of Macedonia) was given to us by Tito. What a lie!!! As I said 100000 Macedonians were fighting for freedom. If Tito made us be under the Serbs again, that wouldn't be freedom and 100000 heavily armed Macedonians would continue fighting for it. Even my 94 year old grand-father, who took a part in the WW2 fighting for the partizans, and who was looking at Tito as a saint agrees with this, that he wouldn't rest till he saw Macedonia free.
Wikipedia even denies the exodus of 250 000 Macedonians from Greece, saying they were running away by their own. Who the hell will leave his house and land if he was not forced to? My other grand father's house was burned and he was shoot at in order to make him leave his hometown.
On some places Wikipedia says that this 'Bulgarian part' of the history might be Macedonian, but that is very well hidden so it even can hardly be noticed.
On the other hand, Wikipedia says that 'In 2000 several teenagers threw smoke bombs at the conference of pro-Bulgarian organisation 'Radko' in Skopje causing panic and confusion among the delegates'. Yes, that is completely truth. But in 1000s of years, you find one incident that we caused against the Bulgarians and you wrote it. What about centuries of incidents, murders, wars, assimilation made by the Bulgarians towards the Macedonians? What about the fact that Bulgaria and Greece do not allow the Macedonian parties in those countries to register and take a part in the ellections? This is something that was taken even to the European court. HOW CAN WIKIPEDIA IGNORE THIS???
BTW, Radko had just about 50 delegates and members. Most of them born in Bulgaria and moved latter in their life in Macedonia.
In this case, Wikipedia is only a tool in the Bulgarian and Greek propaganda of denying and stealing the Macedonian history, culture and existance. Just search the internet and you will see that this kind of 'history' can ONLY be found on pro-Bulgarian and pro-Greek web sites.
I am a living prove of the existance of the Macedonian nation. And that is not because I was told so by Tito. Macedonians were Macedonians far far before Tito. That is a fact that NOONE can change.
How dare you deny everything what I am? How dare you to deny 1000s of killed people, who gave their lives for FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia?
Senceirly,
Igor Šterbinski
Skopje, Macedonia
:Free? Independent? You and your people are still slaves to the cold-war tyranny perpetrated on your ancestors. The "Macedonian language" (as a language distinct from Bulgarian) was (and still is) one of the most successful implementations of newspeak: By Tito's decree history was erased and a "language" and "nation" were born. Does this lie really satisfy you? Don't you have the least bit of curiosity as to your roots and history before 1945? You will never be free while living in this cocoon created by a tyrant. Sysin 22:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Slaves of a Cold war tyrant's decree" is your default answer - but what about everything before 1945? Do YOU have the curiosity and more important the will to question the cocoon created by your "tyrants"? It's very easy to see things in black and white. But since you are here debating with us, you feel a need to prove yourself - which in fact, is a sign of doubt... Makedon 10:00, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral Wikipedia??? 

message: I have changed the introductory italicized sentence to take out references to Slav and unrelated.  These facts are made perfectly clear in the sidebar and in the text of the article and are inappropriate when placed in the introductory sentence.  By placing these words in the introductory sentence, you are referencing the Macedonian naming disupte in the most prominent place possible and doing so in a loaded manner.  While the naming dispute is relevant, it belongs in the text of the article, not as the very first thing encountered by the reader. The intro sentence should state that there is another Macedonian language, point the reader that direction, and let the reader draw his/her own conclusions. Otherwise, why not change Slav in the first sentence to Cyrillic alphabet? That is another distinguishing factor. Or Slav to ISO 639-1 code MK? Also, true and useful in distinguishing this language from ancient Macedonian. Instead, the ethnic angle has been inappropriately heightened, highlighted, and raised to prominence -- this is pushing a POV. – Friejose 16:26, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Slavic may be removed since it is clarified in the info box, but unrelated is not explicitly stated. ---Decius 16:36, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is a fair compromise, and I will not revert my version. Thanks for your help Decius. – Friejose 16:43, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Forgot about one thing though: what specific content is disputed? I will remove the NPOV dispute until it is specified. Decius 17:12, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry Decius for not specifying, the inclusion of the naming dispute note template is a POV problem, as has been described at length by neutral observers at the Talk:Macedonian denar page. Thus, I have removed the template from this article. Anyone seeking information on the naming dispute (which is amply described in this article as well) is plainly pointed to the discussion at the Republic of Macedonia article. – Friejose 17:28, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Please stop reverting, see below

message: Hello, I am Bulgarian, I've been taught in school the Bulgarian edition of the history, my opinion is shifted, etc. You've been warned!
The Bulgarian history, the Macedonian history, quantity and quality of both languages are subject to many debates which cannot be settled so easy. But it is worth to try, and to re-try, and once more. I fully agree with Igor Šterbinski that current article is far from neutral. I also agree that Wikipedia in general is neutral save some articles.
So can we make this article to meet the general Wiki policy. To do so we need to change the approach. My suggestion is to have several articles related to the problem:
* main article Macedonian language should keep all facts subject to general consensus. For example it is definitely a Slavic language, its speakers are living or have emigrated from the area on the Balkan peninsula, and most closest language is Bulgarian.
* several articles with more or less shifted positions/opinions - Macedonian language (Macedonian position), Macedonian language (Bulgarian position), Macedonian language (Greek position). Be assured that even in these articles some sections would spark enough emotions during discussion. For example some Bulgarians expelled from the region around Одрин (Edirne) consider themselves Macedonians too, and their opinions differ from people living in Republic of Macedonia.
* (optional) one article for international consensus candidates still subject to precise wording, say Macedonian language (Consensus candidates).
All controversial facts can go in the separate articles where they can be kept together with other facts proving or refuting them. When given fact is stabilized within given society and all myths are dispeled, it can be moved to to internaltional consensus article. If (and only if) other nations also agree with the fact it may go in the main article. A disambiguiation page can link all those articles explaining different levels of credibility to an unfamiliar reader.
With these sensitive matters we have to adhere more to the Wiki source-pointing policy. Putting a description is an opinion to a "well-known" but debatable fact. Backing it with a link to a source would allow that source to be evaluated, and to be checked for credibility and authority. Repeating someone else's false statements is an attempt to make a truth from a lie by repeating it hundred times. With Balkan history one has to consider that history of Sparta was rewritten by Athens, history of both was rewritten by Macedon rulers Philip and Alexander, the Byzantine Empire tweaked the history its own way, both the First Bulgarian Empire and the Second Bulgarian Empire have contributed to interpretation of the facts in own favor, Ottoman Empire cannot be forced out of the equation, etc.
Sorry for the harsh words but IM(ns)HO pointing to a source which cannot be tracked is a childish excuse. The blind incorporation of an anonymous article cannot be considered a good practice. When one re-prints or copy/pastes someone else's words that means general agreement or endorsement.
When it is done by a linguist (which probably considers himself a scientist), it is even worse - neither the source was verified, nor the statistics presented were proven. 
To resolve this dispute peacefully too, we again may add an article (or more than one for each language pair) with word comparision tables. People believing that Macedonian is a Bulgarian dialect can put there similar word pairs, and people stating that Macedonian is distinct language can contribute to the section with differences. After the article grows considerably we may have argumented statistics. I would expect in linguists world such tables already do exist, and external link(s) on such Wiki-articles can serve well.
-- Bggoldie 06:40, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not had any intention to limit ourselves. The initial argument in the discussion was about words, and from there came my suggestion. I fully agree that broader comparison would be even better. -- Bggoldie 00:32, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion for resolution of the dispute 

message: I'm suspicious about IPA definitions on phonemes /o/ and /e/ in Macedonian. I'm not a native speaker (and I haven't cared to listen ones carefully enough), but I'm pretty sure that E should be [ɛ] (Open-mid front unrounded vowel) rather than [e] (Close-mid front unrounded vowel). For an illustration, [e] leans towards [i], like French (é) or Slovenian (e). I'm not so sure about [o], but I also think it should be [ɔ] (Open-mid back rounded vowel) rather than [o] (Close-mid back rounded vowel). For an illustration, [o] leans towards [u], while [ɔ] is more open (and more frequent accross languages). Duja 11:39, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phonemes O and E 

message: This new section needs some source research and substantiation. Somebody knowledgeable in linguistics should have a look at it. It needs some more work on style. It appears that this is quite new research that has been published only in French. What is -I? what is mediaphoric? (Metaphoric?) Andreas 22:19, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Characteristics 

message: Excuse me, but what is actually lawngreen languages? It is in the language-box. Bomac 22:23, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this is one of the many silly things that happened over the last few minutes because someone who doesn't know what they're doing edited template:language. It's back to normal now. --Gareth Hughes 22:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lawngreen languages?!? 

message: # Шо/Што прејш? - How are you doing? (Sho pre-ish) (Southern Dialect)
# Орајт сум - I'm doing fine (o-rayt sum) (Southern Dialect)
I'd like to point out some interesting phrases from the text, that are supposedly from the "Southern Dialect" -
*Шо/Што прејш? - could be a Southern Dialect, however, this is an article about the Macedonian literary language, so IMO, it is better to add the phrase that is used in the literature - Што правиш?
*Орајт сум - I must say I had a good laugh when I saw this. This is no "Southern Dialect", as far as I know, it is only a Macedonian - English hybrid phrase ("orayt" is only an english pronunciation of "allright"). :D The correct phrase would be "Добро сум". --FlavrSavr 15:19, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I kind of agree with FlavrSavr. This article is about the literary language, but I think that the dialects should be represented. However, this Southern dialect isn't a dialect at all; rather it represents the way many Macedonians speak who have immigrated to places such as Canada and Australia. 
--Daniel Tanevski talk 14:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

text: This is the most common way that Macedonians in Australia and Canada speak, this is also a common slang form in Macedonia ... generally in places like Skopje it's frowned upon for being sort of hillbilly-like :P ... has anyone noticed how ови becomes ој in slang? Well, this form is almost always used by Aegean Macedonians. I've also noticed a few differences in the dialects ... which include using боп for beans (Skopje - грав) and бише, a colloquial for piglet (Skopje - прасе).  Another interesting discovery is how Aegean Macedonians say 'Кај ојш?' when asking how somebody is (as in How are you?). But, at the end of the day - they’re ultimately the same language. I always thought орајт was a bastardization of all right. --Daniel Tanevski talk 15:08, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Macedonia, ајде врати ако сакаш обликот Шо прејш и Орајит сум. Ни објасни многу убаво и мислам дека е добро да се наогја и дијалектот на јужната Македонија на овој сајт. Zikicam 12:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Allright :) 

message: [...] the vast majority of Macedonians consider their language "beautiful", while Bulgarian is considered "ugly-sounding". Is there any source for such a statement, it appears not to represent a NPOV. Andreas 20:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think a source can be provided at all, although it might be a true position, it's one of those "people say" statements. Generally, Macedonians don't like anything Bulgarian, and I've heard this being said about the Bulgarian language by Macedonians before, but I'll remove it as irrelevant and quite beyond proof.  → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → Talk 22:27, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a pretty accurate statement. Speakers of Macedonian, Serbian and Croatian generally view the Bulgarian language as sounding 'stiff' and unharmonious. Whereas, when a person is speaking conversational Macedonian (and Serbian-Croatian) ... it sounds melodic and tuneful. It's not that Macedonians hate everything Bulgarian; rather it's the 'sound' of the way it is spoken. Take these words for example; Как which means "how", the Macedonian and Serbian equivalent is Како, the vowel at the end of the word helps it to fuse and synthesize into the following word, making the sentence flow; with Bulgarian there's a 'break' or pause. Another example would be Там (over there) with its equivalent being Таму and Тамо in Macedonian and Serbian, respectively. Another example would be how the Slavonic "yat" is rendered я (ya) in Bulgarian ... as in the word for milk, Мляко which sounds very odd to a Macedonian speaker (as though spoken with a speech impediment), as opposed to sounding exotic as do other languages, such as Polish and Czech. Daniel Tanevski talk 14:38, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  beautiful, ugly-sounding 

message: Bomac, you cant just make up a classification like that. Look at all the other languages, it is based primarily on number of people that speak them, and then at best alphabetically among countries with significant numbers. You want to argue that Bulgarian should be explicitly included in the list of countries where english is spoken as well? FunkyFly 15:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geographical arrangement? 

message: "The only case used is vocative ..."
This statement isn't entirely true. The vocative case is the only case to be used to a fuller extent compared to the other cases.
The noun casing system has almost disappeared, therefore Macedonian relies primarily on analytic declination. 
A few examples of common usage;
*Dative - кому (to whom)
:It's correctly said that noun case system disappeared. As in English, French etc, personal pronouns are still inflected.Duja
*Genitive - мечкин камен (bear's rock) and Самоилово царство (Samoil’s kingdom)
:That is not considered a genitive, but a possesive adjective. One can compare it with Possesive case, but it functions as an adjective and not as a noun, and it's not considered a noun in neither Slavic grammar.Duja 11:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: синко is indeed a peculiar thing, but it's really an exception. Often, it functions as an interjection, especially when elder people address younger.Duja 11:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

text: It's not correctly said. It is grammatically a vocative, it only has the same form as the nominative. "Како си, дете?" is clearly a vocative. In Serbian, the stress can be different than in nominative (for дете, it's long rising in nominative but long falling in vocative) -- I doubt it's so in Macedonian, because it has a different accent system. Duja 11:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Noun Case

message: I mean, this  is Bulgarian nationalism on steroids... I am looking at Bulgarians#Population. It says there is Bulgarian minority in RoM. True, according to the latest census there are  1500-2000 Bulgarians. Let's compare that to the 5000+ Macedonians in Bulgaria. The Bulgarian article is like that for a long time. And yet, this article is being reverted several times a day on the ground not significant numbers. What is the threshold for significance? There are many Bulgarians here looking for denial of anything Macedonian - past, present and if possible (how much would they like!) future.--Cigor 03:17, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And now FunkyFly tries to "excuse himself" with the statement: There is a small macedonian minority in Bulgaria, so it cannot be mentioned in the laguage box (in the section: Spoken in). That's irrelevant here. Bulgaria is a neighbouring country of Macedonia, so it should be mentioned. Bomac 08:53, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

text: If Ethnologue, UCLA, Helsinki Watch, Britannica, and  BBC believe that the number of Macedonian speakers in Bulgaria is relevant, then it could only mean that it is really relevant to mention that Macedonian is spoken in Bulgaria. Also, as evidenced in the numerous international human rights organisations' reports, it is suspicious whether the official number of persons who regard themselves as Macedonians in Bulgaria is accurate - there are reasons to believe that the Bulgarian government, or the population in general, create a direct or an indirect pressure on Macedonians to state a "Bulgarian" ethnicity. My personal POV on this matter is that the Macedonians there a subject to pressure, I've experienced that pressure myself - it is simply not a smart thing to openly speak about your Macedonian ethnicity in Bulgaria - people immediately get hostile to you. --FlavrSavr 13:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Like I said, in Bulgarians#Population there is mentioning of Bulgarians in RoM. Percentage wise (divided by number of all Bulgarians) they are smaller than the same number for Macedonians. Also in Bulgarian language we see Hungary. I found this link . Quote from there: "There are only 7-8 thousands people who consider themselves Bulgarians, most of them consider themselves of dual identity, Bulgarian and Hungarian at the same time. Most Bulgarians in Hungary speak better Hungarian, than Bulgarian language.". So if this is significant, the number of 3000 (which as the lowest possible number, as the official policy is very hostile to Macedonians branding them as Serbian agents and alcoholics) is also. Remeber there are 4-5 more Bulgarians then Macedonians, so all numbers should be normalized by this factor. If anybody is being very emotional it's the Bulgarian users here, because let call the spade spade, it's not about the significance of numbers it is about denial of Macedonian language as a separate one, and Macedonians nation as different than Bulgarians. --Cigor 14:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Personally, I have no problem with that. There are 1500-2000 Bulgarians (according census) and I guess they speak Bulgarian as their home language.--Cigor 16:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Preceding is an unsigned comment by 70.51.60.88 - 21:15, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you.  Another factor to take into account about how intelligable serbian and macedonian are is where in serbia and where in macedonia you live.  I have family from leskovac in serbia and sremska mitrovica in voyvodina.  The basic language is the same but the slang is different.  A typical example of this is the word sat in s/b/c.  However in eastern and central serbia it is more common to use the word cas.  Which is the same as bulgarian and macedonian.  Therefore i have to conclude that serbian slang is really a cross between croatian and bulgarian.  Also my cousin from leskovac lived in skoplje and told us that he understood 99% of macedonian.  --Lazar Stevanović (70.51.60.88) 19:11, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Endless reverts

message: I moved the (overlong and constantly growing) section into Political views on the Macedonian language article, leaving only a short intro here. I hope I summarized them well; if not, feel free to correct but please don't be too extensive; the new article is supposed to be the place to elaborate. Duja 16:18, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Preceding is an unsigned comment by 85.187.203.123 - 14:12, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganization 

message: Deleted the sentence that Macedonian had the same melody and accentuation as Serbian. Serbian has distinctive tonal accent (and length), and its stress can fall on most syllables. Macedonian has no distinctive tonal accent, no length that I know of, and stress is fixed on the third syllable from the end.
I might argue with you, as a born Macedonian speaker - OK, melodical accent is what the Macedonian does not have, neither that nor the length, but it is NOT relevant. What is relevant is the rule that almost all the words in Macedonian have the accent on the 3rd syllable from the back, just like in Serbian (where the percent is a bit less)> In Macedonian, some words do have the accent on the 2nd syllable from the back, and this percent is a considerably bigger in Serbian. Both language have a very small number of words with the accend on the last syllable. It is officially "prohibited" in Serbian, but it happens all the time. For example, take the word DIZAJN. It is a striking difference in comparison with Bulgarian, that's why I'm putting back the accentuation sentence, slightly corrected although. Zikicam 13:41, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Melody and accentuation 

message: The article contains a contradiction that needs to be resolved by a native speaker. It says that Macedonian has fixed stress on the third syllable from the last, and I've met this claim in literature; however, in the examples, words like "MAkedonski", "BLAgodarya", "DOviduvanje" and "IZvinete" have stress on the first syllable, counted from the beginning of the word (and I do believe I've heard this pronunciation, at least in "MAkedonski"). How is that possible? Shouldn't it be "maKEdonski", "blaGOdarya", "doviDUvanje" and "izVInete"?
:It should. Thanks for pointing it out – the examples at the end of the article appear to be correct, but not the IPA pronunciations in "Common phrases" section. Duja 12:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Never heard of these examples. It is MaKEdonski, sometimes in some areas MakeDONski, but never MAkedonski. BlagodarJA is a Bulgarian word for the Macedonian BlaGOdaram. It is DoviDUvanje and IzVInete. Zikicam 13:51, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Someone Macedonian around here? 

message: I noticed that the Abecedar issued by the Greek government in 1925 uses the Latin alphabet. Does anybody have a copy of it? Since the Macedonian language was standardized in 1945, I am wondering what variant of the language was used in the Abecedar. Are there differences with todays standard Macedonian? Andreas 19:54, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can answer my question myself: it was based on the Lerin/Bitola dialect . Andreas 19:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abecedar 

message: Zikicam, I must admit that there is a superficial similarity between Serbian and Macedonian, which lies in the fact that in both languages, stress doesn't fall on the last syllable with a few exceptions, mostly loanwords. However, the origin and nature of these rules are totally different; it's not just a matter of percentages (the output), but of principles (the rules that generate it). In Serbian, as in Bulgarian and Russian, stress placement is unpredictable, mostly a legacy from old Slavic - except that at some point Serbian stress moved one syllable towards the beginning of the word: that caused the absence of final stress, and the Serbian tonal accent distinction. Macedonian is essentially different BOTH from Serbian AND from Bulgarian, because its stress is determined not by old Slavic accentuation, but by the sheer number of syllables in the modern-day language (and the absence of final stress is the by-product of this rule). 
From your wording in the article, people would get the impression that Macedonian is just a mechanical middle-of-the-way compromise between Serbian and Bulgarian. As far as stress is concerned, that's just not true. Macedonian is pretty special here, and I don't want this to be blurred. That's why stress placement should be mentioned as its unique feature and not as a feature that makes it similar to Serbian. 
Besides that, in the section we're talking about, the similarities between the 3 languages are mentioned not as coincidences, but to illustrate genetic proximity. That is true as regards the definite article, the script, the slang and everything else, but NOT stress placement. Macedonian stress placement has nothing to do with Serbian influence.
:::I know. I am a Macedonian, speaking the language with my mother at home. Outside I speak Serbian. I know the rules, and you are right about the origins, it's like in Polish, Rusyn, Czech or Slovak - these languages have thier accents based not on the Old Slavic accents too. But my point was not that. It was merely the sound - it sounds that way, OK? Zikicam 23:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I happen to visit Finland and Sweden and to learn Finnish a bit, and I also speak Russian fluently, so I surely know that there's no link between the Russian, Finnish and Swedish, except in loanwords. The more accurate would be to compare Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, or perhaps, Rusyn, Polish, Ukrainian, or Czech, both Sorbian dialects and Polish etc. We should discuss about the similarities between the same family rather. I just wanted to say this; Macedonian has a rule, 3rd syllable from the back, but it often accentuates on the 2nd or even 1st syllable, especially in the foreign words. In Serbian, there's no such rule, but the frequency of positions is not much different: it is usually on the 3rd syllable from the back, and sometimes on the 2nd, very rarely on 4th or 1st. So, I am talking about the statistical features - life usually beats the rules. I don't mind this sentence of mine was removed if you think it that way Zikicam 23:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree about the accentuation (I am the one who wrote the passage on SC accents quoted by 85). In Serbian (Shtokavian), accent position is pretty unpredictable; "leans towards the first syllable" was meant to say: when in doubt, stress the first one (but there's no guarantee that you would be right). Now, since most words are 2- or 3- syllabic, the accents in Macedonian and Serbian will often coincide – but only coincide (there are also a plenty Serbian 3-syllabic words stressed on 2nd). I maintain that there is no systemic relationship between two accent systems, however weakly you define it.Duja 07:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Vazi, Jugoslave! Nema problema! :) Of course the processes are not related. I just wanted to say that there are rules in Macedonian, which seem strict, and they are in fact not that strict, and there's very loose rule in Serbian (not on the last syllable!), which is fact turn to be rather strict in fact - with the majority of accent being placed on the 3rd or 2nd syllable from the back. I agree with the current definition, and I hope we'll collaborate further on this! Pozdrav! Zikicam 16:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Melody and accentuation 2  

message: The IPA in the common phrases section isn't displaying nicely in Internet Explorer (for me), but works fine in Firefox. Is anybody else having this problem? --Daniel Tanevski talk 06:23, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: fixed Andreas 14:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It still isn't displaying with my IE ... anyone else want to comment? --Daniel Tanevski talk 15:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Post your comment at Template_talk:IPA Andreas 15:26, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA 

message: LOL, LOL, LOL. So everything that has some link next to it to prove it's a fact is to find a place in any article? So if I write Pinocchio is a real boy  in the Wood article, would that be enough to keep it there? It was thoroughly explained to you how matters actually stand and what you're so settled to include in the article is close to complete nonsense, not to mention that see Old Church Slavonic thing. What you actually intend is attempt on implying that Macedonian has a longer history than in fact and make a form of OCS look like some medieval Macedonian, when it's actually OCS and nothing else, but you're not going to succeed in doing this. Macedonian has roots in OCS as part of Bulgarian, whereas the History section of this article here should give information about the language's separate history.  → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → 12:57, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  You can't just throw out sourced information? 

message: Look Macedonia. The short news, coming from Macedonian national radio, that Kosovo minister of Education has allowed education of Gorani on Macedonian language, was spread by you into headings of three articles (Gorani (Kosovo), Torlakian dialect and this one). This is the only source that exists for such news. Now, you're treating it as a revelation – why don't you put it into headlines of Main Page as well? It is not clear what is the Gorani's attitude about it, and whether it was their request or some sort of deal between Macedonian and Kosovo government, or whether it's 100% true. Even if it were 100% true, and Gorani have agreed with it, why is it so important to have information on educational language of 20,000 people (diaspora notwithstanding) in the very introduction of this article? Even so, don't you consider it fairly normal that those people need to have some textbooks to learn from, even if they're on a language which is not quite their native dialect (which they still usually refer to as našinski rather than 
Macedonian).
I think I was fair enough moving that info below, within "official language of" paragraph, but I see Todor's point in removing it altogether. All we have is this short news, and no reaction whatsoever. I think that Torlakian dialect and Gorani (Kosovo) articles discuss about their tongue and ethnic affiliation (and ethnic claims) pretty fairly. Duja 14:55, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I don't actually see why it should stay, when it was first intended as propaganda, while the actual news has little to do with the Macedonian language article — This single statement has little value to the article, as to mention that the Gorani are to be taught Macedonian according to some Macedonian official. That's what I think.  → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → 15:38, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can't help but think that the reason User:Macedonia is promoting this stuff is, correct me if I'm wrong, that he's trying to present the Gorani as part of the Macedonian Slav irredenta. You know, land claims in Bulgaria and Greece. Why not in Serbia as well :-) It's propaganda (or at least POV) and should be removed ASAP. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 15:43, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with both (correction to Todor: it's the Kosovo minister of education). Macedonia's POV is pretty obvious. Yet, he sourced the statement (not that it's overly thorough and 100% trustable). It is highly questionable, though, that that sole statement makes Macedonian an "official language of Kosovo" (in which case, it would OK to keep it in here). I retained the info in the article for the sake of peace, but I won't overly object on removing it. Duja 16:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for the correction. The source User:Macedonia provided was discussing something pretty different from what he wrote in the article, and doesn't mention anything close to "official language of Kosovo". I completely understand you in retaining the information for the sake of peace, but I still believe it has no place in the article, and am considering its removal.  → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → 18:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe you should increase the number of Macedonians in Serbia by one then. FunkyFly 00:25, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Look, just about every neighboring nation claimed Gorani as part of their national corpus, and they found at least one Goranac to back up their claims. I think it's fairly described in Gorani (Kosovo)#Politics (mostly written by myself, ehm.) There's a Gorani president of Society of Bulgarians of Kosovo, a strong Bosniak group in Dragaš and Germany diaspora (can' find the web site at the moment, but see :bs:Bošnjaci Kosova), some pro-Serb politicians, some pro-Macedonian groups etc. I tend to distrust all these claims and legitimacy of various "Societies of Gorani Martians". So please, let's stick to mentioning all these claims and not making judgements. Duja 07:59, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not making any judgements, I tell you what the man has said. Bomac 21:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I prepared a book for printing in QuarkXPress in 1997 in Serbian literary language and Gorani dialect. In the preface was written that Gorani is a Serbian dialect, called Old Serbian. When I ask the author what it means, he explained that it has nothing to do with Mediaeval Serbian, but it's connected to the region Old Serbia, in which Prizren, Tetovo, Skopje etc. were before 1945. But it's pretty close to the Macedonian literary language, as well as the Leskovac or Vranje dialects. I must repeat: the borders between Slavs in the Balkans were arbitrary and usually made by force. The national affiliation is almost always connected to the state where you live. In the uncertain and insecure times, the affiliation shifts. So, no wonder that Gorani, after the end of Serbian rule, that was really forcing the Gorani culture and identity, including their own dialect, feel insecure and try to find shelter against the Albanian vendetta. Zikicam 09:48, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gorani 

message: Hello, my name is Lazar Stevanovic.  I want to make a lightharted point about this issue about macedonian.  I live in Canada.  My friend Victor Boev is from Bulgaria.  I have a another friend here named Nenad and he is macedonian.  When one of us talks to our families in our native tong, the other one laughs.  This is because the differences are so small in the words that it makes the languages seem funny to one another.  Even curses are the same.  All 3 of us know the word govno.  -Lazar Stevanovic
:Thanks Lazar. Likewise, there was an interview with Greek historian Kofos in the Skopje-based newspaper,Devnik. I asked a Bulgarian friend to give me a gist translation. She found the language funny, there were one or two blanks and a couple of problems with the tenses. She said that there can be communication disparities between the two peoples but that she also has problems understanding some other Bulgarian dialects. She also pointed out that Macedonian has more Greek words. Anyhow, the translation was there and she did not need a dictionary. Now compare Greek with Greek Cypriot; I speak Greek but I cannot understand 'heavy' Greek Cypriot; it might as well be Italian. But Greek and Greek Cypriot are Hellenic languages; likewise for Pontic or south Italian Greek. Based on the findings of Greek linguist Andriotis, could we argue that Macedonian Slav is a mixture of Hellenic and South Slavonic tongues? Politis 10:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are very few mixed languages, in most cases, one language is the origin with loans from others. See also diasystem. Andreas 14:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I would be tempted to classify 'English' as a mixed language. Its origins are German, but it expanded with French, Latin and Greek vocabulary. So we have one range of people using a purely Germanic vocabulary (found in the popular press and soap operas), and another who make abundant reference to the existing Greek/Latin rooted words. Persumably it would more correct to say that English is  a Germanic / Teutonic language. Regarding Slav languages; they were syntactically formated through Greek translations. Before that they had no structural cohesion. So can we say that Slav languages (as well as Latin, Armenian, early German) were born by gaining a Greek backbone, a Greek structure? Politis 16:18, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Slavic languages form a distinct group within the family of Indo-European languages. However, the South Slavic languages and Greek have influenced each other and are part of the Balkan linguistic union.Andreas 17:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

text: No time to dip into my limited archives and clarify my question. Anyway. Yes, there are mutual influence between neighbouring languages: words and expression. But the 'backbone' is the grammar. I mean that with the translation of the Greek 'koine' bible and other Greek texts into the early Slavonic idiom (same happened with early German), we witness (I am told) the usage of an early Slavonic vocabulary. But since this was a basic, limited rural tongue, a vast number of more complex Greek words were transliterated into the Slavonic language; they became part of it. But more than that, the syntax, the word order of those Slavonic translations followed that of the Greek source texts which were determined by the precepts of Greek grammar. That is what I mean by backbone: the framwork that stabilised the early Slavonic language (as well as Latin etc) and allowed it to evolve (not just word loans). Thanks for the info. : - ). Politis 18:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I am glad you are a native Bulgarian speaker, the best conversations come from neighbours. Here, I do not use the term 'Greek' meaning the nation, but as a central factor and cultural reference point, shared equally by much of the world. That common heritage exists irrespective of the Greek nation. But I appreciate that, since the late 19th century, the usage of a term synonymous with an ethnic group can sound invasive; such invasiveness would go against my principles and my sense of cultural curiosity. We can all, irrespective of ethnic affiliation, ask someone to 'love our Greek heritage'; it certainly does not mean, 'love the Greeks people, today'. Meanwhile, I will try and find my sources regarding the impact of Greek grammar.Politis 13:18, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Similarity with Bulgarian

message: Britanica is a different matter. But Ethnologue clearly doesnt list the diaspora. And if you make the calculation the diaspora numbers are clearly out. So it would make sence to include the note. I agree that the note doesn't look too good. One solution would be to put it under - but then it would be misleading in a way (that it concerns the Britanica number also). I think the best solution is for the note to be below, but to be speciffic - "Ethnologue number excludes the diaspora". This looks much better I think. Anyway, wikipedia should be informative and accurate, not necessaily looking good. --Realek 20:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can it be that those people can't speak the language apart from a few words? Did you try to discuss in your language with User:Macedonia who claims being diaspora in Canada? What would you think about his offsprings? No article about a language includes this information, for the precise reason that it is not verifiable. (check it out)  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 21:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But surely you don't claim that no one from the diaspora speaks the language??? There are those who do and those who don't. I guess the situation is no different with Greeks abroad. --Realek 21:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly it is not.  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 21:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnologue 

message: I'm a Serb, and I like Wikipedia cause it's trying to present things objectivly. I agree with (I guess it was a moderator...?) who said that it's not a goal of this website to emphasise some differences or go into details about questions such as this one...it's more important to present things in a way that ANYONE could understand, (you got it right, this is not some Great Balkan Encyclopedia but a basic and useful info-gainer);) It's important for a, let's say, Chinese who reads this article to understand its components in the simplest way....and that is what wikipedia is trying to do (doesn't always manage but in this case I think it's ok)
1)Macedonian is closely related to Bulgarian, scientificly- those are 2 languages from South-East-Slavic group of Indo-European family, while the rest of the languages of former Yugoslavia form the West-South-Slavic group. This is the ground for everything else-the closeness between the two languages. But they are still 2 different languages, not 1!
2)Now that we've established this, it's important to mention also the Torlakian dialect...It's the dialect which is spoken in East and South Serbia, West Bulgaria and Macedonia. That's the bridge between Serbian and Macedonian languages. It's considered by scientists to be among the 4 main dialects of the so called "Serbo-Croatian" language (kajkavian, chokavian, shtokavian and torlakian), which means that Serbia is split between 2 main dialects (shtokavian and torlakian). Torlakian dialect is unfortunatelly very neglected due to centralism of Belgrade and its former policy... The movies books that were written by Serbs living in those areas a century ago sound to the northern and western Serbs almost like a foreign language, but is very well understood by Macedonians. So there's a linguistic union in that way between the two languages (at least literary!, but the spoken variant also). 
3)Macedonians feel less resentment towards Serbs than to Bulgarians, historically speaking of course. They were both conquerers, but they simply had a better experience with the Serbs, who were ready to ackgnowledge their nationality while Bulgarians considered them part of their national corpus until just a while ago. So even though it's linguistically closer to Bulgarian than to Serbian, many Macedonians had no problems in reading Serbian books and studying in Belgrade or elsewhere in Serbia- it was simply a political question that Tito had advantaged. Even today most citizens of Macedonia, especially older generations understand or speak Serbian with no major difficulties, but it's true that Serbs have more trouble understanding Macedonians than Bulgarians do...which I guess proves that politics in the Balkans is the main governing passion rather than logics or common sense... You cannot call Macedonian a Bulgarian, or Montenegrin a Serb unless that's how they really feel...unless they speak up their minds you cannot force someone to be something else if he feels differently...there are countless proofs that Croats and Serbs are in fact one nation- but most Croats and Serbs reject it. If someone wants to take a separate way, you cannot stop him, it never works. You can only try to be friends with him.
So Macedonian is indeed a separate language, close to Bulgarian, less closer with Serbian but sometimes intelgible and lagrely influenced by it (slang f.e.)
MACEDONIAN vs BULGARIAN CANNOT be compared to SERBIAN vs CROATIAN, because SERBIAN and CROATIAN are just 2 dialects of a SAME language. MACEDONIAN and BULGARIAN are more distant and can be compared to SWEDISH vs NORVEGAN language;
:Oh yeah? Then 1.How was it created in 5 days? 2.How come there are so many studies that prove the contrary? 3.How come everybody I know who speaks Bulgarian understands Slavomacedonian and vice versa? When exactly are you going to admit the truth? YOUR LANGUAGE WAS FABRICATED AND INVENTED IN ORDER TO SUPPORT YOUR NEW NATIONAL IDENTITY. Cyprus has a much more different dialect to standard Greek, and yet, it is a separate nation from Greece without mentioning the "different language" BS. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 21:39, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bomac, why don't you go troll the Macedonians (ethnic group) article? Your answers are moot. 1.No other language in the world has been invented that fast. 2.There is no independent study though. 3.The closeness of Bulgarian to Slavomacedonian is 95%. Serbian is at 30%-40%. That is why, the South Slavic languages are divided to eastern and western. I have Skopian friends, I travel a lot in your country, in Bulgaria and in Serbia for work and I speak with people. They all tell me the same: Bulgarian and Slavomacedonian are the same language with few artificially added modifications. Only your country's editors of Wikipedia support such propaganda. Get real: It is a language because we DEFINE it is a language (and I have no objection in that). Ask a linguist. It has much less modifications from Bulgarian than ANY dialect of ANY other language. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 23:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The only thing about my statement that may not hold ground, is that I said that Slavomacedonian is a language. You are soooooooo blind from extreme nationalism, that whatever I write, you JUST DON'T READ it. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 11:21, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I can tell you that Macedonian (Slavic) and Bulgarian are not that similar and certainly cannot be compared to Serbian and Croatian, or Dutch and Afrikaans, or Romanian and Moldovan etc. The differences between both languages are not negligible and IMO it is immaterial whether they were artificially induced or not. The point is that the languge-dialect distinction is a very gray area and it almost wholly depends on politics. I think that the most appropriate distinciton is the one drawn time and time again. That Between Norwegian (Bokmal) and Danish. In the case of North Germanic (Scandinavian) languages, their status as independent languages is only due to the separate self-identification of the speakers and the willingness of the government in question to recogniose their existance as separate language. The problem in this case however, is that there is evidence of separate Norwegian and Danish languages in the past (go back 500 years or more). Originally, Norwegian, differed even more with Danish and that is still the case with the (artificially constructed Nynorsk - I think of it as the Norwegian equivalent of Katharevusa even though it is not exactly the same thing). Their similarities are due to prolonged contact (I think it was as part of the same state). On the other hand, I see no evidence to support the existance of Macedonian (Slavic) as a separate language from Bulgarian prior to the creation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia and the promotion of the Macedonian ethnicity (whether it was a national awakening or blatant brainwashing). In my opinion, Macedonian (Slavic) is probably an Ausbausprache. --Latinus 11:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Latinus, thanks for the intervention, I just added wiki-brackets in your text for the rest of us illiterate and uneducated people to be able to read what Ausbausprache is. (So much difference from what I was trying to explain with plain English above...) :-) NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 12:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Bomac, I think you should know that the alleged (like the Rainbow party's minority) Bulgarian minority in Greece claims that ABECEDAR was originally for them (they also claim that a seperate Macedonian nation does not exist)  and that the Serbia objected to it because they didn't want similar obligations and Bulgaria objected because the Greek authorities were trying to seperate the Bulgarian minority and to transform (brainwash) them into a seperate nation. Why should I believe your propaganda and not theirs? --Latinus 12:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Greece was trying to create a Slavic minority in order to sever the minorities relations with Bulgaria. They do it all the time: eg declare Aromanian a seperate language and not a Romanian dialect and delcare Pomak a seperate language and not a Bulgarian dialect etc. This way a Bulgarian, Romanian minorty ceases to exist and an independent minority exist which does not give the corresponding country (Bulgaria, Romania etc) a right to interfere in Greek internal policies. It probably is double standards - but note the Greek authorities never encouraged the existance of a Macedonian ethinc group. It was merely a device to seperate them from the Bulgarians so thet they would be easier to assimilate. Devious tactics I know, but look at the article Pomaks, where the Greek authorities published a Greek-Pomak dictionary for that purpose. --Latinus 12:28, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I think that this website may give a few answers to that question. They seem to have a different interpretation of the word "Macedonian" :-) --Latinus 12:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: -)) This is funny... The "Macedonian scientific institute" in Sofia has it's mission to deny everything that's Macedonian. What else could you expect? LOL. Bomac 13:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: So you think it's impossible that they are right. --Latinus 13:08, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: In other words, what I wanted to say about this institution is this Census 1946-1950  Bomac 14:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, keep repeating that - it might (just might) become true :-) --Latinus 13:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Impressive position I must admit. I agree. The discussion is totally unimportant, because a "language" is what you define as a "language".  ...Mine, however, is still a virgin (common Greek's delusion)!! :-) NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 16:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After all said I'll just add that pretty much everyone I know, who comes from Macedonia and now lives in Bulgaria considers himself Macedonian for sure, but with the difference that he or she also considers himself/herself Bulgarian. Gee wiz, even some hothead extremists with territorial apsirations toward Macedonia in Bulgaria were born in Macedonia. FunkyFly 16:52, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Macedonian vs Bulgarian, Serbian vs Croatian

message: "A fellow editor requested that someone provide references or sources for the information in this section."
Some of the info there can be found in any Macedonian grammar, such as the one by Victor Friedman listed in the main References. Other parts of it are present in any book on Bulgarian and Serbian. However, if somebody did add these ones, that would give the appearance that every single statement in the section is found in the sources in question, and that would be false. I've got no idea about the Torlak thing, for example. It's impossible to provide a separate reference for every single statement. Why doesn't the fellow-editor just specify which piece of information he/she wants a reference for and add a "citation needed" tag there?
--85.187.203.123 11:36, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My main concern here is the work of Claude Hagège: only his name is given, and no citation is given. Is Hegège's work mainstream and generally accepted among linguist? Also, if the mediative mood is equivalent (morphologically and semanitically) with the Bulgarian renarrative, it is not a specific feature.  See also my post above about this. This is why I gave the Bulgarian example above. Ye Macedonian speakers, can't you tell us if there is a similar wording in Bulgarian?  I have no doubt that most of the features described in the specific featured can be found in any grammar. However, if they are to be labeled as specific, they must differ from other Slavic languages, in particular from Bulgarian. This seems to be the case for some of these features, see also above. Andreas 15:28, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: German: Er soll das getan haben (lit. "He shall have done it" - "He is said to have done it") Andreas 14:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References for the "specific feautres" section 

message: I removed the part of a paragraph that said that macedonian was written in the latin alphabet in yugoslavian times. That is just plain nonsence. Macedonian was NEVER written in any alphabet other than macedonian cyrillic apart from e-mails, SMS messages and some shop signs. In my two decades there I have never seen a book or anything else written in that alphabet. The only possible exception is one serbian magazine that has its macedonian version which, for some inexplicable reason, is written in the latin alphabet. All the people I know found it very, very strange.
*The transliteration exists for other puroposes and is extremely rarely, if ever used, let alone being the standard system of writing. That is unheard of.--Bjankuloski06en 13:02, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of latin alphabet in yugoslavian times 

message: User:LionKing, would you please cite prominent non-Bulgarian linguists who consider Macedonian a dialect of Bulgarian? I consider inserting "some linguists consider it..." a Weasel word. The entire stuff is already explained in detail in Political views on the Macedonian language.
As for Bitola's subsequent edits, let's be honest, not muddy things up, and admit that Macedonian is far more similar with Bulgarian than with Serbian; all Slavic languages in the area include, erm, two. This intro has been here for a long time, and I think it's fairly NPOV. Duja 18:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But what is wrong with the mentioning that the Macedonian language is closely related to all languages in the group of south slavic languages? After that sentence, I left the part where the Bulgarian and Serbian are mentioned separately. And also I removed the mentioning of ancient Macedonian language because that is already mentioned in the disambiguation link at the very beggining of the article. Bitola 18:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing wrong, just not specific enough; the same can be said for any language in any selected group. In general, I prefer a status quo for any article, especially introduction paragraphs, unless compelling reasons for a change are presented... I've seen to much edit war on Macedonia-related articles that I'm inclined to stick to the current (fragile) balance maybe even too strongly. As for removal of ancient Macedonian from the intro, I'm not opposed. Duja 19:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that would be confusing since the constitutional name of the modern country (and language?), which has been adopted in WP, is same with the irrelevant ancient. You can't expect uninformed readers to understand that "Tom" and "old Tom" are not the same person in different age...  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 20:38, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Here we go again...