Talk:Akatsuki (Naruto)/Archive 12

message: To begin with, I am not adding another "Tobi isn't Madara" comment. As of now, the section on Tobi seems to refer to the behaviors he displayed before he was revealed to have authority over Pein and afterword almost interchangibly. For instance, after the article states that he refers to himself as Madara Uchiha, the following sentence goes on to describe the carefree personality he desplayed as "Tobi". In addition, this sections ends by stating that he is implied to be relatively young, despite the fact that Madara was stated to live at the founding of Konaha. What I am suggesting is that this section be reorganized slightly as to enstablish a clear distiction between the personality he displays while interacting with the Akatsuki members, and his personality as "Madara". 66.24.226.134 23:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest we do what One Piece did and split the information between Tobi's Akatsuki section and Madara's Land of Fire section, like they did with the CP9 members. Just give the information above the guise of Tobi to Akatsuki and about Madara to Land of Fire, and link to the other sections. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 13:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that would be a wise idea, as pretty much the manga says "Tobi is Madara" blah blah blah. No need to link to something we know next to nothing about. I say just make it clear that Tobi is a guise of Madara or (most likely) a split personality that he has control over. --TheUltimate3 15:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I more or less agree with what TheUltimate3 suggested, in that the description of Tobi/Madara should not be split up between two pages. Again, what I was preposing was that the personality he displayed as "Tobi", and all the attributes applied to him by others (carefree and goofy, is 'a good boy') be distinguished from how he presented himself while talking with Pein and Konan, regardless of whether the Tobi persona was an elaborate disguise, a dual personality, or any other interpretation (although it would be too soon to mention any of these theories, as they are just that, fan theories). In the same vain that Keyser Söze would not be described as a small time con artist afflicted with cerebral palsy, neither should Madara be described as a carefree and childlike character, unless he is revealed to have behaved as such prior to joining Akatsuki.66.24.226.134 18:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Regardless of what he may or may not have called himself you should not be calling Tobi Uchioha Madara until he takes the mask off and proves it. At the end of 370 Kishimoto left his identity ambiguous, not saying his name at all but calling him "he".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 13:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Exactly, anything else is Original Research, and I don't even need to link you there to know that it is not allowed on wikipedia. Arukan Harless 18:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Someone (Its here somewhere. Not going to look.) gave a good reason as to why, sort of a Ninja tactic, the swirl automatically leads you to that eye, without thinking. All he has to do is activate the Sharingan and boom, you're Genjutsued without knowing he even activated the Sharingan. That being said, we don't actually know what Tobi looks like under that mask, he could have gotten an haircut and put on the mask, and acting goofy and then acting serious is no seperate personality, it could easily be a turn from acting to being who you actually are.--TheUltimate3 01:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Distinction between Madara and Tobi 

message: isn't it about time we change Tobi's name to "Uchiha Madara"?--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 12:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: no matter what those translators say, we can't be sure. Jazz Band Member 13:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: after everything that has happened i have to say he IS madara--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 00:18, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have to say he MAY be Madara. Kishimoto has not said very clearly that he is Madara and he could still very well be someone else. We need to wait until he removed his mask and is identified properly.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 18:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Technically, he refers to himself as Madara, but in that situation, his character is significantly different. We still don't know the entire situation regarding the entire Tobi/Madara duality, so it's best to leave it as "refers to himself as Madara" for now. You Can't See Me! 22:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well if you cante tell by now Tobi really isn't Madara. He is trying to reach Madara's power. It is obvious that Tobi is in fact Obito, Kakashi's old teammate. Hence the Sharingan in the opposite eye of Kakashi, and the bolts on his suit holding his body together after his near death experience.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Starfox2430 (talk • contribs) 14:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

text: No, technically he could be saying either "I am" or "This/that". Since the word could go either way, he technically said nothing. Besides Kishimoto made it clear that we don't know who he is at the end of 370.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 21:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

text: We still talking about this?  I wish scanlations were done via a wiki so that poor, incorrect or outdated translations would not be so persistent. –Gunslinger47 21:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless I'm waiting until the mask comes off. Then I can shrug if you're right, and laugh at you if you're wrong. I personally have no clue, and I'm not willing to just blindly throw all of my consent onto a single sentence. So far it seems, to me at least, that the Kyuubi believes Sasuke is just as capable of controling him as Madara and was saying he has 'the same cursed chakra' as Madara, so why not other Uchiha? The face will tell no lies, while a spoken sentence that 'most likely' says he's Madara could be proven false.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.30 (talk) 01:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "The face will tell no lines"?  Obviously you weren't watching the articles related to Aaroniero Arleri when he took his mask off. :) –Gunslinger47 03:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't, but he was technically wearing two masks, and he was also technically not entirely lying when he said he was Kaien since Kaine's body technically was his, but for Tobi to be Madara he'd either have to be really old, or in a new body that is not Madara's old body, like say Obito's body or some such.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.143 (talk) 19:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Look, whether, Tobi IS Madara or not, this article reports the truth--that Tobi calls himself Madara. Does that mean it's true? No. We're just reporting the information and it's fine until a new revelation of what Tobi meant. This subject should really be over by now.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 01:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok. I am Homer Simpson. Does it mean that I'm him just because I said that?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.58.134 (talk) 02:52, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To quote from the article: "...and he refers to himself as Madara Uchiha." Does the article say, "...he is Madara Uchiha..."? No, I don't believe it does. You Can't See Me! 03:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tobi/Madara 

message: If this translation is in fact accurate, then it would seem that Pein and Konan are likely the other two members of Jiraiya's team:
http://www.msnusers.com/NarutoMangaReturns/chapter372.msnw
66.24.231.57 01:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not confirmed. All we know is that he looked after them. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:27, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: After 373, confirmed, because Yahiko asked Jiraya to train them, and in the flashback-ish part, they attack him, using ninjutsu and such. So doesn't that mean they were taught that? Or are you implying they knew those powerfull jutsus. — Pejmany 20:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

text: They are his students, just not his Konoha Genin team. He taught them Ninjutsu, therefor they are his students. For three years they learned from him, and therefor he was their sensei. No they were not his genin team, or a genin team at all for that matter, but they were his students none the less. Just like Naruto is his student despite him not being in a genin team under the sannin.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.145 (talk) 23:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pein and Konan as Jiraiya's students 

message: Pein is Nagato! On saiyan island they have a translation guide. That guide states that Nagato is pein. Please repond and put up the new info!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by RasenganController (talk • contribs) 05:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We will wait until proper english translation is out. Meaning one that everyone (who speaks English) can easily find and see. Until then, we wait.--TheUltimate3 10:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I read it this morning in English. Nagato is Pein. Jazz Band Member 20:31, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Info on Pein! 

message: As of now, all the information on Konan has been deleted from this article. Is there any perticular reason for this? 66.24.227.23 19:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I'd like an explaination as well. Cathy  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.4.6 (talk) 20:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

text: It appears to have been simple vansalism. Everything was removed by one user without any explination and has since been readded. --67.68.152.38 21:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

text: That's a good point; however, in Ch368, Konan only starts to use her jutsu to find Jiraiya immediately after Pein stops the rain. Celeritas 20:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Using paper and becoming paper are probably different. Her paper shuriken used durring the rain are not unfolded from her body, while Jiraiya says that wile covered in oil, her paper could not unfold from her. Also, her body being made of paper might make her weak all the time to water(while she may not have had this weakness back then), or the heavy rain on tiny paper butterflies would simply be a drastic inconvenience.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.143 (talk) 19:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

text: She didn't, they were indoors.
Well now in ch 374 Pein douses her with some kind of bubbly liquid allowing her to move and counteract Jiraiya's oil.  So again I think we should consider changing whether or not she can use her origami abilities while wet or whether it's only certain types of liquid.68.85.155.211 19:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Maybe she can just get dry from water faster that from oilYagami Kurono 15:35, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Konan 

message: (This probably also applies to the Kekkei genkai article.)
I'm going to admit I myself have no idea what Rinnegan's powers are since I'm too lazy to be bothered to read serial manga, but if they've been revealed, shouldn't they be stated, and if not, stated that the powers are unknown?—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 05:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They're unknown. If you wish to add it, then feel free to be bold and do it. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 05:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Powers of Rinnegan 

message: Is pein the leder of rain.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.163.183.85 (talk) 18:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pein is the leader of Amegakure (Village Hidden in Rain). Pein eventually began a civil war within Amegakure, which he subsequently ended by singlehandedly killing the village's leader, Hanzo. Pein killed Hanzou and became himself leader of Amegakure. We don't know the Land of Rain's leader, but Pein could be its leader.
This may be off-topic, but why was my status section deleted?
If the AL(don't know for an English Fact his name is Pein or Pain) is leader of the village wouldn't he be the Amekage. That would be so cool even though we know his village isn't top 5.SuperN 01:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

text: The fact that Rain isn't one of the big five is the exact reason why he isn't an "Amekage."—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 02:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

text: And even if it was, keeping with the Kage naming style it would be something different: i.e. Konoha has Hokage, not Konohakage. Kiri has Mizukage, Iwa has Tsuchikage, Kumo has Raikage, etc. Muramasa itachi 03:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rain Country 

message: The translated chapter isn't out yet, but the raw is, which you can find at numerous sources included Narutofan. The point is that Pein is finally shown fighting (against Jiraiya), and he has two summons from what I gathered. One is a giant crab that spits water (which he used to hose Jiraiya's oil off of Konan), and a chameleon-lizard-chimera-thing. Shouldn't this be added to his article? 214.13.209.200 00:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  364 Raw 

message: The article states that Akatsuki has world domination as it's goal and that acquiring the tailed beasts will return the Sharingan to it's full power. Yet the most recent chapter; 374 states that the tailed beasts are required to make some form of a superweapon jutsu and that Pein's goal is to force all Shinobi nations into dismantling their militaries.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alwayssummerdays (talk • contribs) 10:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Akatsuki's Goal 

message: There is no mention about the abilities of Sasori to brainwash people like what he did against Yura and Kabuto.
Tintor2 16:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sasori used a currently unnamed jutsu to seal the memories of his subbordinates to make then into perfect sleeper agents.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.145 (talk) 00:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Brainwashing

message: Well obviously Pein's summon isn't wholly either, but which one seems more like it? Aleriae 22:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just list it as a Reptilian Conglomerate and end the debate.  AnimeNikkaJamal 04:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chameleon or Gekko 

message: The aticle states that Tobi wants the tailed beasts to restore the Sharingan to it's full power,surely this is speculation?
:Complete speculation. Please remove it, if you can.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 17:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Using the reference for that statement would tell you to where it is said. ~SnapperTo 22:31, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh, I must have misread that page. Oh well.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 22:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh wait, that page?! How does that imply that capturing the beasts will restore his power? That seems on the edge of OR/spec, to me.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 23:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: His one sentence about the topic is spread across a few pages, so you'll need to backtrack a bit to get the whole thing (apologies for poor reffing). Even then, I remember him being more explicit about the beasts' connection to his Sharingan. Perhaps I'm thinking of another translation, as he doesn't mention them in the copy I currently have. Either way, his Sharingan works into the equation somehow. ~SnapperTo 00:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tobi's Goal 

message: Are Deidara's weird hands a kekkei genkai? 74.167.170.215 20:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Deidara does not wear his ring, thus was not recruited to replace him. Deidara wears a different ring that may have been worn by someone else once, or maybe he was the first we don't know that. All we know is that he was apparently recruited after Itachi and after Orochimaru left.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.26 (talk) 01:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Deidara

message: The article says that Konan can fly with paper angel wings, however she is seen on several ocasions floating ar4ound without any wings at all. It is more likely that they were just for show and to be utilised for attacking, while her flight is derived from her near weightless paper body. In addition, it is said in teh article that she is called God's Angel because of the wings, but that was never stated, she was called that because she spreads Pein's words. The Konan article needs some revision.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.15 (talk) 18:16, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't speculate. Noone really knows why she's called his Angel. It's never explicitly stated, and therefore, unverifiable. She's called God's Angel and that's all we know. I agree that the article is wrong if it says that she's called his angel because of the wings, but there's nothing that says that she's called his angel for any other reason. AnimeNikkaJamal 20:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but she can also fly without the wings, which was the more important point.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.39 (talk) 01:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure I'd qualify those other instances as flying. Her face is as far off the ground as it usually is while standing; she's simply missing her lower half. It's as though her legs are still there and you simply can't see them. In any case, the wings allow her to get further off the ground than when she's simply a disembodied torso. ~SnapperTo 03:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I'm fairly sure she flew up higher when Pein told her to get out of the way and she didn't have the wings then. She hasn't stopped flying since she started fighting Jiraiya and hasn't had wings since he spit oil on her.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.26 (talk) 14:02, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Konan, God's Angel, and Flying 

message: GUYS.....wat happened to ITACHI'S page? Did someone delete it o something?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.195.58.212 (talk) 01:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was merged because it held no real purpose. Itachi had  done practically nothinig article worthy.--TheUltimate3 01:45, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Cause that's what they decided on... Jazz Band Member 14:17, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I can't link it because it was a merge disscussion, so sorry.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 16:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The conversation is still at Talk:Itachi Uchiha. –Gunslinger47 18:18, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Itachi Uchiha 

message: He's got a headband. At first I thought it was Rain, then I thought it was Grass. Is there any word on what the village is?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muramasa itachi (talk • contribs) 03:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unknown.Lastbetrayal 03:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Should we add that to his article? I tried doing that earlier but someone reverted it. Muramasa itachi 03:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that his village isn't stated should speak volumes for its unknown status. ~SnapperTo 03:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Meh, all that did for me was intrigue me; I wondered if it was carelessly left out, then went on to find out myself. Then again, that may be just me, but still.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muramasa itachi (talk • contribs) 05:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hidan's village 

message: How did Deidara fight Sauske without his hands? Because Gaara crushes one and Kakashi warps his other hand into another dimension.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naruto Beier (talk • contribs) 13:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Kakuzu reattached them. Jazz Band Member 14:13, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah, he mentions somewhere that Kakuzu sewed them back on or something. Iirc you can see the stitches during their fight but Im not sure about that. Muramasa itachi 18:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right here you can see Deidara's reattached arms. --Naruto Tron 02:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that this article needs plot details, (What members like Itachi do in the series), and personality. 
Tintor2 20:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

text: This section is a few minutes (or hours. Depending if I come back after my work is done) before being removed as Forum talk. Now that THATs out of the way, the article for the most part doesn't need plot details as this is a list. And because it is a list, adding plot details would make it very very long, which would then have to be split off into a seperate article and we all know how well that worked out last time.--TheUltimate3 23:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  I mean in this section the only info is background, abilities (in a little sentence) and death, nothing about what they do in the story. .--Tintor2 15:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Including what they do in the story makes this article considerably longer than it needs to be. The circumstances surrounding their death is all the plot summary that is needed. ~SnapperTo 20:27, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So if Itachi and Pein make more things in the manga, will they have their own articles?And then adding the missing info( for now Itachis info is the missed one) And the article of list of characters of saint seiya is more than 3 times bigger than akatsuki.--Tintor2 21:51, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What other articles do have no impact on what this article does. Pein and Tobi's article status will be discussed when the need arises. ~SnapperTo 02:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

text: What about Itachi?.--Tintor2 11:51, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deidara vs Sauske 

message: he new chapter's pot, and it's been revealed that:
-Pein can hide in his chameleon summon
-Pein can, and has summoned two humans-members of Akatsuki
-Jiraiya in his youth came to Myouboku Mountain where the Toad summons lived, and had great skills in the art of Toad ninjutsu
-The mother of the two Elder Toads that Jiraiya summoned predicted this, as well as that one of Jiraiyas students would one day have the choice to bring peacce to, or to destroy, the world,and said that this was also Jiraiya's choice  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alwayssummerdays (talk • contribs) 10:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fifty bucks says the two Akatsuki members are two of his other bodies.Lastbetrayal 16:26, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  /agree. We don't know much about these members yet, so should we put them in Pein's article as opposed to adding them as their own section in the Akatsuki article (doubt we'd do that but still). Muramasa itachi 19:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chapter 376 out 

message: that makes no sense when read
What are you talking about? Though perhaps it could have been reworded, grammatically it was correct, and the link worked fine. Itachi's father specifically remarked that Itachi had mastered the Great Fireball Technique at a very young age. Itachi actually makes frequent use of shadow clones as well, but I didn't insist on mentionning that. I also didn't make a fuss when Itachi was merged (even though I thought it was pretty ridiculous), because I was under the impression that for the most part, no information would lost. What's to be acheived by totally ignoring every "minor usage" of a jutsu by a character that uses a wide range of jutsu anyway? I don't like edit wars, I'd rather discuss this reasonably, so I hope you choose to as well. Feebas factor 00:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is not meant to cover every minuet detail about a character. That's what the Naruto wikia is for. Itachi's entry details what he makes frequent usage of, and that adequately communicates his battle style. ~SnapperTo 02:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Itachi uses fire jutsu all of once, as a 30% clone. It is not a notable feature. The speed is, because he is constantly doing things faster than the eye can see. As for my original edit summary, "Itachi wields great proficiency with fire ninjutsu" sounds like something Yoda would say. You can't wield proficiency. You can be proficient, though. Regardless, it's not notable. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. I thought it might be notable for significance rather than frequency (as I said, Itachi's father specifically remarked that Itachi had mastered the Great Fireball Technique at a very young age), but I can understand why that would still not be a notable feature. I also apologize for my poor use of the term "proficiency" (thanks for explaining). And I am glad that you agree with me about his speed being a notable feature! Thank you. Feebas factor 03:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Itachi's Techniques

message: I'm not a grammar teacher but I guess that this line has to read some other way: "and even dedicates his final moments to apologizing to him". It would read better like this: "and even dedicates his final moments to apologize to him." or like this: "and even dedicates his final moments apologizing to him." I did not make the edit myself because I'm not completely sure. Also can it be mentioned why is he apologizing; is it for the huge explosion that can harm Tobi?; or apologizing for killing himself? Either way, if his apology is mentioned the motive for it should be mentioned too. Bvazq 14:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no doubt that he thought his explosion would kill Tobi, and that's what he was apologizing for.  Regarding your phrasing, it sounds good.  Be bold! :) –Gunslinger47 16:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is locked, so he can't be bold. 214.13.209.200 16:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deidara Iinfo Edit