Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles/Archive 8

message: I think the template should link to Japanese language. See ilustration below:
*How it is now:    Fullmetal Alchemist (鋼の錬金術師?)
*What I propose: Fullmetal Alchemist (Japanese: 鋼の錬金術師 - Hagane no Renkinjutsushi)
Current problems:
*names with mixed latin-kanji names mix up.
*to an untrained eye it is curious what language are these wierd scribles are
*the ? has little usage and it is confusing as people can easily believe it is a part of the romaji.
:--Cat out 18:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer the way it now, though I wouldn't object to replacing the "?" with "Help" or something similar. Every place the template is used should be obvious the characters are Japanese since the only places it's used are articles about some aspect of Japan or Japanese culture. I think it's best to keep it as simple as possible. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True but on for example on Planetes it can be problematic. The template might appear like it is pointing the obvious but what I am saying is in accordance with Manual of Style for all other languages I believe. it isn't becoming any more complicated when it is stated that text is infact in japanese. besides consider the case at FMA and Planetes lists when japanese characters dont load properly. Deriving the language from context can be problematic if many are listed. --Cat out 23:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I seem to recall that this suggestion has come up before. Consensus has generally been that there's too much that needs to be put in the opening sentence as is; the more we try to squeeze in, the uglier and more confusing it gets. Personally, I think Help:Japanese (which is intended to help with the very problem you mention!) is more likely to be useful than Japanese language, and people can infer the latter from the former anyway.  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 02:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't really see the merit, but you can bring it up on Template talk:Nihongo to see what others think about this. Shinobu 21:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm beginning to see Cool Cat's reasoning on fully writing out Japanese: at the front of the template, at least when it's used for the article title. If you look at how translation is done for articles with Chinese names, they fully write out Traditional Chinese: Simplified Chinese: AND Pinyin:, and I don't really see why Japanese is being excepted from this.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  10:26, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The main reason to avoid it is because it looks clunky. It's much better to have a simple question mark than to have all kinds of extra stuff in the sentence that simply clutters it up. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Huh. This is true. I'd been under the impression that Chinese usually got away with removing it entirely from the opening sentence and using an infobox instead.  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 03:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad we've avoided introductory sentences like the Jet Li example. Fg2 03:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but that's because I understand Japanese and Chinese, so I'm not sure if I count.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

text: This sounds like a good idea to me, and might be a possible solution to the question mark issue. Create a new template (based on the current nihongo template, with Japanese: link included, minus the question mark) for the first mention in an article; all subsequent template needs being served by the current nihongo template minus the question mark (as it would be unneccessary). The use of a new template for the opening phrase would also avoid screwing up the many, many instances of the current nihongo template. Seann 09:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support a variation of the nihongo template for use only in the introductory sentence of an article that would explicitly state that the word is Japanese. Maybe Template:Nihongo-intro.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  00:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Minus question mark is good proposal. Question mark is not working well. That shows every Japanese word as if it was not exact.Open-box 03:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Template:Nihongo]]

message: I'd like to specifically disallow ruby in all Japanese articles until it becomes more widely supported. Otherwise, we get articles like Dragons of Heaven which don't look very good in anything other than some versions of MSIE. In addition, ruby uses up a lot of space in an article, when something much more compact (like the currently accepted and widely-used  template) would accomplish the same thing. Thoughts on adding this to the MOS-JA? ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:18, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I heartfully approve. I'm afraid to edit Dragons of Heaven because the code is such a mess.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  02:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Speedy. I totally agree.  --Kunzite 03:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Speedy. Doesn't even work in IE for me. Kill it now. —Nightstallion (?) 22:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: No ruby, please. (Heck, I'm the guy who doesn't like macrons.) I do have a suggestion for people who want to do the kind of thing that's in the Dragons of Heaven article: Why not make a graphic of some sort. You can make the kanji look really interesting and put the ruby on them, then make a gif and include it in the article. Use the colors of the original production, and it will be a visually interesting addition. Fg2 23:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Agree to add the prohibition to MOS-JA.  Maybe it can be reconsidered when more browsers display it correctly, but for now, it makes a mess of everything. Neier 23:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Agree, as per Neier and Nihonjoe.--Endroit 23:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree. In fact, this seems so uncontroversial I've gone ahead and added it.  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 08:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It's already there. Fg2 23:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ruby

message: While thinking I was reverting an error, it came to my attention that Mahou Sentai Magiranger was moved to Mahō Sentai Majirenjā to fit with the WP:MoS-JA ways of article naming.  While I realize that this is important, is this really how the two are transliterated to each other through Hepburn romanicization (especially, because the Japanese-English spelling of Majirenjā is Magiranger [the way it is written in the Roman alphabet by the Japanese])?. Ryulong 01:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: MOS-JA does not allow for macrons over the letter "a".  Therefore, instead of "ā" (with macron), you would use "aa".  So the page has to be moved again to either Mahō Sentai Majirenjaa or Mahō Sentai Magiranger or something else.  Never mind, I see that somebody did that already.--Endroit 03:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, macrons are fine for any katakana romanization. I've also fixed the title to Mahō Sentai Magiranger. Thanks for catching that, Ryulong. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are there any examples where macrons are used for "a", "e", or "i" in article titles?--Endroit 03:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, about the Mahou to Mahō.  Is this how all ou are dealt with? Ryulong 03:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are exceptions.  Quite a few are listed above in Romanizing おう and おお. --Kunzite 03:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Reading the article a little more, I think that the u in Mahou was important.  Specifically, this line: When the Ozu siblings' names are put in order of age from oldest to youngest, the term "MAHOUTSUKAI" (Japanese for "magician") is formed by taking the first syllable from each of their names --- MAkito, HOuka, Urara, TSUbasa and KAI.  How would Mahoutsukai be spelled in Hepburn romanicization? Ryulong 21:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mahōtsukai, in Hepburn with macrons. 魔法使い breaks down as 魔 (ま, or ma) 法 (ほう, or hō) 使い (つかい, tsukai). The Japanese article is at :ja:魔法使い. Fg2 21:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gah...  I asked the wrong question.  If the pun is written in Romaji/kana for the original Japanese audience, how should the name be handled? Ryulong 21:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A simple explanation sentence or two should take care of it. It's fine to fudge the guidelines a bit when trying to explain something. For example, even though names are usually in GN-SN order, all of the character names in the Highschool! Kimen-gumi article are left in SN-GN order in order to keep the puns associated with the names. The guidelines should generally be followed, but it's okay to occasionally not follow them if need be for an example or something similar. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent move of Magiranger 

message: Currently the rule reads as follows....
:In the case of katakana, all long vowels indicated with ー should be written with macrons when showing the Japanese pronunciation (e.g., , ).
I think a revision to the this katakana rule is in order.  Rather than merely suggest a separate macron rule for katakana, it would be much clearer for everyone if we say something like this:
:"If the Japanese word is in katakana, try to use the English spelling if available.  For example, use Thunderbird (サンダーバード sandābādo) instead of Sandābādo.  If an English spelling is not available, but a spelling of a 3rd country of origin exists, try to follow the MOS specific for that language.  For example, Zhà cài (ja:搾菜 zāsai) should tend to follow WP:MOS-ZH rather than WP:MOS-JA.  Otherwise, macrons may be used for "a", "e", and "i" as well."
--Endroit 04:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like this proposed revision. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text: "If the Japanese word is in katakana, try to use the English spelling if available.  For example, use Thunderbird (サンダーバード sandābādo) instead of Sandābādo.  If an English spelling is not available, but a spelling of a 3rd language-of-origin exists, consider it.  For example, Homard (ja:オマール omāru rather than Omāru, and Zha cai (ja:ザーサイ zāsai) rather than Zāsai).  Otherwise, macrons may be used for all long vowels indicated with ー, including "a", "e", and "i".
Nihonjoe, if you agree, can you please think of the exact wording that would be appropriate, and do the honors for us (and change this rule)?  Thanks.
--Endroit 01:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Looks good to me. I've been doing that for all my owarai articles too so バッチリ！  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  01:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Updated. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Nihonjoe, I see that you revised rule #2 (the katakana rule).  I trust that everyone will be happy with this wording now.  My only concern was that people will butcher the 3rd-language words, and we should be forgiving when that happens.  For example Janne Da Arc instead of fr:Jeanne d'Arc or Joan of Arc.  Janne Da Arc is actually correct because of rule #7 (common spelling rule).  As long as people understand such things and can apply common sense, this should be just perfect.--Endroit 14:16, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed revision to the [[katakana]] rule

message: At Talk:List of Naruto video games#Game names, there seems to be something of a disagreement about whether to use Japanese names for Naruto games when official English-language release names are available. Further input would be appreciated. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A dispute over naming in Naruto game articles 

message: User:Bakemono and I have traded off edits (Kouta Hirano vs. Kohta Hirano). I have requested protection of the page, and would appreciate input on the Talk: page from, well, people who aren't me or User:Bakemono.  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 01:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I take your position, Aponar Kestrel. I agree with the fact that it needs to be "Kohta Hirano" WhisperToMe 02:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Argh. What a damn pain! He's trying to "revert" the edits the wrong way, and causing me to take several minutes to sort out what he did to the pages. <grumble>. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Heh, where'd the edit history go? o.O -- Ned Scott 03:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh wait, there it is. -- Ned Scott 03:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Bakemono and Schrödinger are is totally screwing up the edit histories with the way they are doing thigs. It's going to be a royal pain to sort out. I encourage anyone interested to please come participate in the discussion. The more, the better, as a broader base for a decision is better. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excuse me? When was the last time I edited the main article or moved the page? About two weeks ago, by the looks of my contribution history. I'm not screwing anything up. And I don't think I've ever moved the page "the wrong way" like Bakemono is doing. Schrödinger 20:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, sorry. I'd forgotten I'd posted here, too. The same apology applies here as you are correct in that you weren't playing with the whole cut-n-paste moving thing. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Think nothin' of it. Schrödinger 03:56, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute at [[Kohta Hirano]]