Talk:Bombing of Berlin in World War II

message: The original entries on this talk page seem to have been accedently deleted   Revision as of 14:54, 27 October 2006 -- Revision as of 14:55, 27 October 2006 --Philip Baird Shearer 20:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Restoration of page

message: What does "battle honour" mean here? Get-back-world-respect 00:51, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: See Battle honour, roughly speaking the UK/Commonwealth equivalent of the US campaign streamer or Presidential Unit Citation. David Underdown 13:33, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Battle honour

message: I have rewritten this crap article and given it a title that describes its contents. Adam 14:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done, I have been thinking along the same lines myself recently, but have not had time to do it. --Philip Baird Shearer 17:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

message: I have removed the references to Thunderclap because it is not clear to me that the raids in 1945 were Thunderclap. What Taylor says in Dresden, Tuesday 13 February 1945page 214 is that in a minute of a meeting on January 30th that Sir Douglas Evill reported that given that oil and tank factories were to remain the priority, that a Thunderclap attack would not be feasible, but that the Joint Intelligence Sub-Committeethought that an attack even on a lesser scale against Berlin would assist the military campaign on the Easter front. As Taylor puts it with his focus on the Dresden raid "In Other words, Thunderclap was to be replaced by a number of very powerful - but not, in numbers of aircraft dispatched, freakishly large - air raids on eastern German cities, including Dresden". --Philip Baird Shearer 17:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Thunderclap

message: The current source says: The Battle of Berlin cost Bomber Command 500 aircraft, with their crews killed or captured (Grayling, 332). Is that aircraft lost on the 16 raids on Berlin or total losses for the Battle? If it is the former then a quick count of the losses as published on the RAF web site are well above 500 (On a quick count I made it close to 550). On top of that the RAF lost a lot of other aircraft attacking other cities during the battle for example 95 on the night of March 30/31 1944 attacking Nuremberg. --Philip Baird Shearer 20:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: RAF losses

message: I have moved the following text to this page for further discussion 
:On 8 August 1941 the Soviets started a bombing campaign against Berlin, which ended on 5 September as the air-base had to be evacuated because of the advancing German troops in Estonia. The Soviet Union suffered from unreliability of the plane engines. The short-lived campaign was a retaliation to the German bombings of Moscow, ordered by Hitler as a preliminary measure to prepare to advance to Moscow.
The above was not sources. I have looked on the internet and some unreliable sources do mention the campaign, but they disagree on who, when and where.
* Soviet Bombing raids zhukov.mitsi.com cites http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/3351/index.html
*:Also, the Soviet navy (V-VS-VMF, Voyenno Morsky Flot) had sent a token raid on August 7, using 14 Pe.8 heavy bombers.  ...  Finally, at 9:15 p.m. on August 11, the 14 Pe-8s took to the sky.  ...   The remaining 11 Pe-8s pressed on toward Berlin, releasing their bombloads over various parts of the city. ...   "Eleven of our aircraft reached the target, six aircraft regained their base, one was shot down by our own anti-aircraft artillery, one is missing and the rest made forced landings owing to engine failures. My aircraft crash-landed in a forest." ...  Raids on Berlin continued, too. Naval DB-3s flew a total of 10 sorties over Berlin before their base at Saaremaa had to be evacuated in the face of imminent German capture. The final attack was made on the night of September 4-5. A total of 86 naval aircraft participated in the raids, of which 33 were reported to have reached Berlin, while others bombed secondary targets, including Stettin, Königsberg, Memel, Danzig, Swinemünde and Libau. Daylight bombing was even tried, but met with no success and was cancelled.
* Aviation Timeline:
:*7-8 August A small force of Soviet Naval Aviation Il-4 (DB3F) bombers takes-off from Estonian Islands of Dagö and Saaremaa and attacks the Berlin area. The city was brightly lit and the raid precipitates the introduction of blackout regulations in the German capital.
* Naval Aviators 
*:At the beginning of August 1941, however, our aviation bombed the Nazi Germany capital. The idea of this air-raid on Berlin from the Estonian Saaremaa Island was suggested by the Navy Armed Forces Commander-in-Chief Lieutenant-General S.F. Zhavoronkov. Since it was impossible to reach Berlin from the rear aerodromes due to the fuel supply shortages, it was decided to use the Saaremaa Island for this purpose. On the night of 7 August, five airplanes bombed Berlin. These planes were piloted by Colonel Evgeniy Preobrazhenskiy, Captain Andrey Efremov, Mikhail Plotkin, Vassiliy Grechnikov and senior lieutenant Petr Trychkov. The rest ten airplanes dropped their bombs on the reserve target which was the Schtettin port constructions as a heavy thunderstorm, raging that night, prevented them from reaching Berlin. Within a period from 7 August to 4 September, the air group headed by Preobrazhenskiy conducted 52 operational flights, at that, 33 airplanes managed to hit their targets dropped more than 36 t high-explosive and fire-bombs along with 34 bombs with propaganda leaflets.
Does anyone have any reliable sources? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk)
:These are all sounding like direct quotes from Ray Wagner's book, which I happen to have. Unfortunately I didn't have it in my plans to look at the history of Long Range Aviation at this right moment, and will be largely inactive for the next two days, so will have to wait. I will return to the subject, but just thought that the titling of the other article was odd.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 14:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Bill Gunston mentions bombing missions with Yermolayev Yer-2s from Rzhev carrying a 1 tonne bomb load in The Osprey Encyclopedia of Russian Aircrft 1875-1995 London:Osprey, 1995.  (p.502),  an attack by TB-7s (i.e. Petlyakov Pe-8s) of 412 Polk under Brigadier M V Vodopyanov on 9 August 1941 (p281).Nigel Ish (talk) 17:09, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Soviet raid of Aug 1941 did in fact take place- Read this  
--Woogie10w (talk) 15:07, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Russian article has sources ru:Бомбардировки Берлина советской авиацией в 1941 году. Ходок (talk) 17:47, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  1941 Soviet bombing of Berlin 

message: Was Berlin notably bombed during some other time? If not, this article should be moved to a simpler title, Bombing of Berlin (now a redirect here). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  15:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I would not support a move. -- PBS (talk) 18:21, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Because...? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  19:08, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: By the Polish Air Force, in early September 1939, noted by :
* Willmott, in his GREAT CRUSADE
* "The China monthly review", Published by J.W. Powell, 1939 Item notes: v. 90-91  pp. 195,393 "German planes are bombing Polish towns. Polish planes have bombed Berlin. British planes have bombed the German naval bases at Wilhelmshaven and Cux-taven"
* Great pages in history from the Wisconsin state journal, 1852-2002 By Frank M. Denton, Univ of Wisconsin Press, 2002, , 9780299183349 p.47 Sep 1. 1939 "PARIS--Polish sources report Berlin attacked by Polish bombers. ..." 
*  Aeronautics, 1939 Item notes: v. 1-2, p. 26 "Tuesday 5th September", "POLISH broadcasts claimed that 30 Polish aeroplanes had bombed Berlin and all returned safely. German reconnaissance flights were reported to have been ..."
* The Chronicle of the Lodz Ghetto, 1941-1944‎ by Lucjan Dobroszycki, Richard Lourie "On the 6th, 7th, and 8th of September, the Polish press reported that Polish ... that Berlin had been bombed by thirty Polish planes, and that French troops" No preview available just what came up in the Google search
* Here is a primary source The War Journal Of Norman Mingay "Wed. Sept 6th 1939, 30 Polish planed bomb Berlin.  RAF drop 3,000,000 more leaflets over Ruhr..."
Selected Vital Records from the Jamaican Daily Gleaner: Life on the Island of Jamaica as seen through Newspaper Extracts, Volume 2: 1916-1939, Heritage Books,
, 9780788445835 Page 484 It has 2 entries about this:
* September 2, 1939. "GERMANY & POLAND AT WAR CAPITALS BOMBED"
* September 6, 1939. "... Thirty Polish 'Planes Bomb Berlin"
Kurfürst (talk) 14:44, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Dubious.--Jacurek (talk) 14:50, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think just as #1941 Soviet bombing of Berlin, this needs a modern secondary source with details of the raids. As these newspaper reports are reports of Polish radio broadcasts, not reports on the actual raids. The Polish radio broadcasts my be contemporary propaganda there is no way to tell without a reliable secondary source that has looked in detail into the reports. --PBS (talk) 16:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see Kurfürst couldn't resist the temptation to spread the crap theory about the Polish bombing further. Good job. Loosmark (talk) 21:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

text: This is like the D grade horror movie where the hand comes out of the grave and/or the story of Rasputin- --Woogie10w (talk) 01:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

text:  H. P. Wilmott of Sandhurst, in his "Great Crusade" also notes the bombing of Berlin by the PLW. This is a reliable secondary source and it says the same, ie. bombers attacking Berlin on 1 September 1939. I am intending to look up the event in German literature, too, there is an excellent source for the daily events of the war. Kurfürst (talk) 10:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

text: So why did they bomb Berlin then..?  Kurfürst (talk) 11:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Kurfürst, I don't want to be rude here, but when will you give up? The reasons for not including this information which is most likely Polish war propaganda of the time, was explained to you dozens of times on several different pages by several different editors who reached consensus already. Therefore, why the hell you keep trying to insert this alleged 1939 Polish air raid on Berlin and why you keep asking the same questions repeatedly and repeatedly, over and over.....you driving people nuts.--Jacurek (talk) 15:15, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Polish historians researched the 1939 war in great detail. Basically everything is known. That an operation of that size, which would have been by far the greatest operation of the Polish Air Force in 1939, would have gone unoticed by them is simply ridiculous. There would have been books written just about it. These "sources" which Kurfürst keeps machine gunnning at us are clearly originated by war-time rumors and propaganda which spread during every war. Kurfürst is not stupid and knows this very well but he's trying to push the story anyway coz it will serve him to trivialise the Nazi's terror bombings on Warsaw, something along the lines of "Poles bombed Berlin, Germans bombed Warsaw". Loosmark (talk) 12:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You are very right Loosmark. Intentions behind these edits are obvious.--Jacurek (talk) 15:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

text: What did Willmott actually state in his book? Word for word. In any case, I will check and verify this citation. I met Willmott twenty or so years ago, the man is a serious military historian who is respected. His two books on the Pacific war are excellant, a good read.--Woogie10w (talk) 23:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Which two books about the Pacific war do you mean? I have The Battle of Leyte Gulf: The Last Fleet Action and IMO the book is far from excellent. Loosmark (talk) 08:22, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Empires in the Balance & The Barrier & the Javilin--Woogie10w (talk) 12:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Also I highly reccomend the 96 issues of the Second World War series published in the US 1973-75 by Marshall Cavandish Ed Barrie Pitt. This is out of print but well worth the money. --Woogie10w (talk) 12:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

text:  I will have to look it up again in the library, but he notes "the Polish air force bombed Berlin on 1 September 1939." These may not be the exact words (as noted, I will look up the exact quote), but should be very close. Also IMHO the best and most balanced book on WW2, and his conclusions are both sober minded, and thoughtful. Kurfürst (talk) 11:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Yo man, be cool. I will be checking this out--Woogie10w (talk) 12:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's hard to tell which book is best and most balanced on WW2, I have seen many very good and balanced book on the topic. But anyway even books which are very good sometimes contain big errors or innacuracies (i can provide some example of anybody is interesting). And of course books which deal with a specific more narrow topic are usually much more acurate than the general books about the WW2.  Loosmark (talk) 11:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

text:  Thanks. I'm not surprised at all.. Loosmark (talk) 18:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I met Willmott years ago, I respect him as a top notch historian. I would not like to see his name tagged onto blatant disinformation from the German Propaganda Ministry circa. Sept 1939--Woogie10w (talk) 19:02, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Of course Willmott mentions it, and of course you don't have 'The Great Crusade' - otherwise, why would you ask for a cite? This is a rather cheap tactic, and it will be very unpleasent for your credibility when I present the scan of the page here. Kurfürst (talk) 20:23, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Of course I have The Great Crusade by H P Willmott- What page to I have to turn to to see the mention of a Polish attack on Berlin on 1 Sept 1939? Maybe I missed it, I am an old man with grey hair--Woogie10w (talk) 20:45, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Like I said, I have to look up in the library, but it is probably a good idea to look up - where he describes the Polish campaign? I have a fairly visual memory, and at least in the edition I saw it, it was on the left page in the upper 2/3s of the text, a short sentence being devoted to it. Like I said, I will look it up, wiki is not running anywhere is it? Kurfürst (talk) 20:52, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Please realize that I am just an old man with grey hair, one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel.--Woogie10w (talk) 21:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I WAS WRONG-KURFURST IS RIGHT on page 274 Willmott says "on Sept 1, 1939 when Polish aircraft attacked Berlin"--Woogie10w (talk) 00:53, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is still a lack of reliable secondary sources to confirm this. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary references. Hohum (talk) 15:10, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

text: WP:REDFLAG "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources"; a Wikipedia Policy, says otherwise. Excellent secondary sources specialising specifically in the air war in europe and specifically the Polish and German air wars don't mention it. One brief mention in Willmott is the single decent secondary source, but is far from being exceptional, and doesn't even have any relevant detail, like strength, unit involved, damage caused, losses takem; the rest are too close to the event or questionable as authorities. IMO policy clearly states it should be left out entirely. Hohum (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with Hohum, a source would need to give such a controversal statement some credibility. At least some of following: which units were involved, who give the order and why, name of any pilot involved (and maybe some recollection), from which fields did they take off, how were they able to penetrate so deep into Germany without being detected etc, etc, etc. The lack of any details whatsoever clearly indicates it's simply a war propaganda or a rumor. Loosmark (talk) 16:48, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no Polish bombing of Berlin in 1939. In September 1939, one Polish plane PZL.23B  bombed a German factory in Olawa, near Wroclaw, also one plane bombed a street manifestation in Gdansk (Sept. 7, the article about it is here ), there also was bombing of a rail station in Nidzica. That was all. There is an interesting article about Polish propaganda in 1939, by a renowned historian Dariusz Baliszewski. He says that the myth of bombing of Berlin was made up by Polish propaganda, so that civilan population would believe the war was not lost. The article is here, translation upon request . Also, Waclaw Subotkin wrote a book "History of Polish aviation", in which he stated  despite orders prohibiting bombing of targets in Germany, pilot Waclaw Buczylko bombed on September 2 a German chemical factory in Olawa. Tymek (talk) 18:19, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I will also add other examples. On September 3, Polish plane P.23 dropped a few bombs over Pyskowice, and on September 6, one plane Karas got as far as over Koenigsberg (but did not bomb the city), where it was forced to land. Photos of this machine were frequently presented in German newspapers, to show threat of aerial bombing. The lone Karas over Koenigsberg was the furthest Polish airforce got into Germany. Tymek (talk) 18:30, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Willmott does not use footnotes, we never know the source of his information.  This is a major shortcoming of his Great Crusade.  The Polish editors should be able to give us an official and or academic sources re: the air war in Sept 1939. Not a web page or a sentence from Google books.  That would solve our problem, we need official/academic published sources with decent footnotes.--Woogie10w (talk) 21:53, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It will be as difficult as to find a source as it would be on the fact that Canada never bombed Los Angeles. This also never happened. We may have to find a historian that examines Polish war propaganda of the time.--Jacurek (talk) 22:12, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Jacurek, we don't need to find counter sources to keep fringe ideas out. They need exceptional sources to be included in the first place. It would be interesting if you did unearth more information though. Hohum (talk) 22:33, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: 1939 Polish bombing of Berlin

message: The French used a modified commercial airplane to bomb Berlin. The name of the plane was "Jules Verne".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.10.72.71 (talk) 20:04, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Reference here. Although it says 8 June. However, a minor attack like this probably doesn't qualify as strategic bombing. (Hohum @) 16:12, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It is already mentioned in the timeline - the raid took place on the night of 7-8th June.Nigel Ish (talk) 07:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  First bombing of Berlin by allied forces June 7th 1940 by the French 

message: I've amended the section under 1940 - 1942 to include discussion of implications of the bombing. The article just noted "damage was slight" when referring to the 24-25 August 1940 British raid, considering only the material effect of the raid. However the psychological effect was much greater: it occurred at the point at which the Luftwaffe were critically close to defeating British south eastern Fighter Command (and hence were very close to being able to invade with air superiority). However the Berlin raid so enraged Hitler that he ordered his bombers to shift to bombing British cities, starting the Blitz, which gave the British Royal Air Force enough time to recover and rebuild. It has been argued that this was a crucial turning point of the war, Once Fighter Command in Britain was rebuilt, Britain won the aerial Battle of Britain and Hitler had to shelve the 1940 invasion plans as a result. So I think to summarise the 25th August 1940 British raid as only inflicting slight damage overlooks the much greater strategic effect it had on the war. --mgaved (talk) 07:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Many sites mirror wikipedia.  Do you have evidence that this one came before the wikipedia contents that it matches?  Dicklyon (talk) 02:36, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm aware of the general problem, of course. In this case, I do not know which came first. Norvo (talk) 17:43, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Then it's not clear what point you're raising.  The existence of identical whole sentences is not in itself worthy of much attention, lacking a reason to believe what was copied from where.  If you can point out what sentences are the same, and when they were added to wikipedia, and by whom, that might be a useful step.  If copied sentences were added by different people at different times, then the copy probably went from wikipedia to there.  If they all got added at once by an editor without much evidence of normal contributions, then maybe it needs to be looked at more closely.  So far, you've given us nothing.  Dicklyon (talk) 06:28, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: "damage was slight"

message: At the risk of being a bore, I'd like to raise the matter again.
Compare the article with this site - for example the sections with the sub-titles 'Prelude' and '1940-1942':
http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/469156
There are whole sentences that are identical on both sites. Norvo (talk) 17:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Many sites mirror wikipedia.  Do you have evidence that this one came before the wikipedia contents that it matches?  Dicklyon (talk) 02:36, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm aware of the general problem, of course. In this case, I do not know which came first. Norvo (talk) 17:43, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Then it's not clear what point you're raising.  The existence of identical whole sentences is not in itself worthy of much attention, lacking a reason to believe what was copied from where.  If you can point out what sentences are the same, and when they were added to wikipedia, and by whom, that might be a useful step.  If copied sentences were added by different people at different times, then the copy probably went from wikipedia to there.  If they all got added at once by an editor without much evidence of normal contributions, then maybe it needs to be looked at more closely.  So far, you've given us nothing.  Dicklyon (talk) 06:28, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright vio? (again) 

message: This entire period of bombing appears to be missing; in fact the Battle of Berlin section skips to November 1943. There was heavy destruction of the city at the beginning of 1943, but the corresponding German article unfortunately offers no sources to enable me to insert it. Yngvadottir (talk) 06:21, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  January-March 1943 

message: My bad, checked on Google maps and saw that it really was about 1000km.Žiga Auer (talk) 07:46, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  London - Berlin distance 

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message: In https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsoper_Unter_den_Linden it says "wurde die Staatsoper am 10. April 1941 durch Luftangriffe der Alliierten schwer beschädigt" (trans: the Staatsoper was heavily damaged by an Allied air attack on 10. April"! This attack seems to be missing in Your list! 80.151.9.187 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 14:00, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing! 

message: The destruction on Rotterdam were essentially caused by the ignition of vegetable oil tanks touched by some bombs and this is the main cause of destruction of the city !
Not the bombing itself !
The German's used light bombs of 50 kg and 57 planes could not possibly destroy a complete city .. as the UK and US massive bombing of 1000+ heavy planes add demonstrated all along the war.
So please, be fair and precise in your saying. 2A02:A03F:6088:2B00:18C1:530B:3938:3225 (talk) 13:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong presentation! 

message: See Draft:Soviet air raids on Berlin in 1941. Needs a lot of work. Srnec (talk) 23:53, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soviet draft article