Talk:Military brat (U.S. subculture)/Archive 3

message: Here is an image in the public domain that I think could flesh out the photos for this article, military brats on a ship for family day.  Military families overseas would be good, also base housing photographs, and an image of the commisary PX, etc., complex on a base, and maybe a military school.  Here's a picture of a female servicemember helping her son at a base school.  And its source site, as I only assume it is in PD.  The ribbon cutting honor guard for base housing.  Here's one with a whole group waiting for the return of their servicemembers. &   Military family housing destroyed by Hurricane Katrina. &   I would like to see a bit more variety incorporated into the images.  &   &  KP Botany 02:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool, I didn't see these pictures... I'll take a look at them alter and possibly add some!!!Balloonman 21:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: Digging up all the PMID abstracts I can find on military families (if you can give me the names of the authors, or the titles of the papers, quoted by Wertsch, I can find the studies) - based on what comes up, apparently child abuse is some kind of an issue (??) - sometimes you can get the full text for a fee:
*PMID 12530711
*PMID 12226593
*PMID 16534146 
*PMID 16323588
*PMID 15767194
*PMID 15497630
*PMID 15467043
*PMID 15281677
*PMID 12685695
*PMID 9280381 
*PMID 9183158
*PMID 8919705 
From Google Scholar (you can get some of these for a fee):
*http://afs.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/32/1/24 This is a 2005 report by Ender - probably worth the fee.
*http://www.springerlink.com/content/h676k454377718rv/
*common dialect - speech of military brats
A lot of this doesn't look helpful, but while searching for info, I realized that the Wertsh work is pretty old - a 1991 publication would be based on studies done in the 80s ??  Sandy (Talk) 02:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool, thanks I'll have to figure out how to get some of these... perhaps through the library?  Child abuse and alcoholism are two factors that Wertsch talked about, but that I couldn't find any other sources for... The only place where I saw either one of those mentioned was in Wertsch... I didn't even see it discussed in non-authoritative sources, but I personally believe both are legitimate factors. Wertsch is pretty old, but she is still highly regarded.  I used her book primarily for historical facts or where the issues have been fairly well established.Balloonman 04:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For research in sociology, however, 15 years is not as old as research in medical sciences or other areas, because the researchers look at long term impacts.  Newer sources, yes, add, but don't totally dismiss older sources, especially books by respected researchers.  KP Botany 18:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: She's not a researcher, but rather an author... who has garnered a lot of respect in the field.  Her book is highly quoted and referenced in the literature that I've seen, but it would be  stretch to say "reasearcher."  She interviewed a number of people and did a fair amount of research into the subject before writing her book, but it is not a scientific "research."Balloonman 19:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: PubMed Research

message: Rather than zeroing in on 'abuse'-- why not describe the "Challenges and Strengths" of the military brat experience? 
Challenges: As a brat (I assume most of here either are brats or are familiar with the brat experience) I would say that my life held special challenges like moving constantly, adapting to foreign (and sometimes hostile) cultures, authoritarian parenting, and for some of us-- dealing with a parent being in a war (my Dad was in Vietnam in my case when I was 9), dealing with friends who's fathers were casualties in war, and dealing with the aftermath of war (what parents were like returning from war)-- 
Strengths: But on the other hand-- I have noticed that many brats have special strengths-- resilience, adaptability, appreciation of many cultures (both overseas cultures and many American regional cultures for primarily Stateside Brats). Apparently 80% of us are also somewhat multi-lingual. Then there is the warrior ethos that we were raised in-- of courage, service to others, self sacrifice, duty, honor and love of country. I would say that many brats that I have met also have a real sense of adventure because growing up as a brat-- life is an adventure! 
So yeah, this could be expanded upon (feel free to use and adapt this) but I think "Challenges and strengths" better describes the brat experience rather than just putting the label of 'abuse' on brat life (I know that was not the posters intention here-- but I have run into that 'oversimplification' of just assuming we are all just a bunch of abuse survivors).  Best to all. -Phil
72.16.201.2 00:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Phil, the abuse section is a very small section, indeed, especially when compared with the rest of the text that describes exactly (and I mean exactly) what you just described above as challenges and strengths.  Everything you listed I said, "Has that, has that, has that, has that...."  I think perhaps on first reading you may have zeroed in on just the one section for some reason, glossing over the rest of the article that goes into depth on those very topics you've raised.  --ScreaminEagle 00:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: The abuse section also discusses an area that is found in the literature, but points out that right now there is no definitive position one way or another.  The article doesn't say that military brats are more prone to abuse (which is something researchers used to say.)  Nor does it say that the brat is less prone to abuse, which is what some researchers are now saying.  It is saying that the jury is still out.  It is in NO WAY saying that we are a bunch of abuse survivors, in fact it says quite the opposite...  But yeah, I have to agree with Screamin, just about everything you said is covered in the article---with documentation and support.  But, failure to discuss abuse, after it was such a big part of Wertsch's book, would IMHO, be incomplete.Balloonman 04:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Can you mention the issue though? If there's that much research, conclusive or not, it's apparently an issue in the military that readers may want clarification on. –Outriggr § 01:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  already done... I decided to mention it for the exact reason you brought it... but I'm going to expand the section some more.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Balloonman (talk • contribs) 01:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abuse in Military Families 

message: I like this better now, espcially the linguistic part. I'd be surprised if it didn't make FA. Rlevse 15:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the goal.  I think it could have made it to FA under the old version, but with the explicit change to focus on US brats, some observations that I made, and advice from Sandy/Outriggr I decided to revamp it some.  I'm not a believer in significant revisions while in FAC status. Balloonman 15:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New form

message: **But don't leave out cold war brats (like me)and PRE-Cold War brats (like my Mom) -- did you know there are 70 year old brats in this country-- my mother for example is 70 and she went to 18 schools by the time she was 18 years old. She still considers herself a brat and always will (then she married my Air Force Dad and kept moving-- she has moved 30  times in her life! What an amazing lady!
So still-living brat culture goes back three generations-- let's not forget that.  
Best to all. 
Phil
72.16.201.2 00:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I've put a lot of effort into this.... Cold war brats is the focus of most of the research... the post-Cold War brats is a new addition which isn't very well known... as for pre-cold war brats.  I doubt if I'll add anything on it... there is so little known about them and what was said about them is VERY suspect.  The stuff written about your mothers generation was written during a period where the only things that were said about brats came from psychologist/psychiatrist who were describing their patients and extrapolating that to the population as a whole... VERY negative.
I should have given it all a more careful read. I was reading it quickly at work. 
I also agree with your thinking on shoddy or unbalanced research that negatively stereotypes military personel or military dependents. There is a lot of poorly done (politically motivated?) crap out there. 
Thanks again for your efforts! :-)
Phil
63.225.108.158 02:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: '''Beautiful. This article is improving all the time!'''

message: Overseas the US Dept of Defense operates schools at those bases where there are enough US dependents to make it worth it.  A number of those were closed at the end of the Cold War; of those I attended, the physical buildings still exist, and one is (again) in use as a school, albeit by the civilian host nation (Germany, in this case).  It seems like an article about these DoD schools would be a worthwhile addition to Wikipedia, with a direct link to this article.
BSVulturis 18:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Precisely.  (Why didn't I find that before?) Thanks.  Now to see how to properly work that link into this article. BSVulturis 21:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old US DoD schools? 

message: Some female soldiers may happen to be mothers. Some more info on this topic would be appreciated. Wandalstouring 00:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a little on "non-traditional" military families in the Ender book.  I'll take another look at it.Balloonman 04:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  unconventional brats 

message: There are some ancient sources mentioning military brats (Hannibal who didn't want his father to leave him again and went with him to the combat zone in Iberia or his elder sister who was present in the besieged Punic army camp during the Mercenary War and got married to the Numidian king Navarro) in the Anabasis of Xenophon brats and family life of the Greek soldiers fighting their way through enemy territory gets mentioned. Perhaps we should think about a way to link to these historic references on the subject. Wandalstouring 00:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historic souces on brats and military families