Talk:Battle of Grozny (1994–1995)

message: This battle is referred to by many different names throughout wikipedia:
* Battle of Grozny (1994-1995)  (current name of the article)
* First Battle of Grozny (in the first sentence of this article)
* 1994-95 First Battle of Grozny (at the top of the infobox)
* Battle for Grozny (in the First Chechen War article)
I feel like we should pick one and (if needed) rename this page, and change all the other references throughout wikipedia. Personally, I'd say "First Battle of Grozny," because that's what it's called in this article, and that is the most clear and concise one.
--Julian (http://beautifulrecords.org/) 03:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What's the name of this battle

message: Seriously. --HanzoHattori 15:29, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please stop adding the Mironov's work of fiction 

message: Operation [something], I guess? --HanzoHattori 10:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What was the Russian name for battle? 

message: In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :) 
* "newyear" :
** 
Russian soldiers who were taken prisoner did not even know where and why they were; some had been told that their mission would be to "protect roads," while others asked the reporters "who is fighting whom".<ref>Wounded Bear: The Ongoing Russian Military Operation in Chechnya
** The New Year's Attack on Grozny
DumZiBoT (talk) 22:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bot report : Found duplicate references !

message: This section is very detailed, but I'm not sure where this information comes from, additionally, it is not particulary useful when english language roadmaps of Grozny don't appear to exist. I couldn't find any information on many key locations such as the two squares mentioned and many of the streets. It might be too much detail, but perhaps someone could find a map with street and square names, or maybe a battle map more detailed than the only one I can find, which just shows vague arrows on the outskirts of Grozny. I also realize that many locations in Grozny have been renamed since 1994/1995. 72.78.110.225 (talk) 02:18, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Course of the Battle 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090709131323/http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil:80/Red-Star/issues/JAN97/JAN97.HTML to http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/Red-Star/issues/JAN97/JAN97.HTML#RUSSIAN
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927220039/http://www.smallwarsjournal.com/documents/wolvesden.htm to http://www.smallwarsjournal.com/documents/wolvesden.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110720083643/http://www.caucasus.dk/publication1.htm to http://www.caucasus.dk/publication1.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110720083643/http://www.caucasus.dk/publication1.htm to http://www.caucasus.dk/publication1.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927220039/http://www.smallwarsjournal.com/documents/wolvesden.htm to http://www.smallwarsjournal.com/documents/wolvesden.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Reading in the source given, concerning fatalities, one finds Sergei Kovalevs estimate that 27,000 civilians being killed. But who said there were 35,000 dead, including 5,000 children ? And who want's to decide if Kovalev's estimate deserves credibility ? - and e.g. Anatol Lieven's no further considering ? --129.187.244.28 (talk) 10:11, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fatalities: Kovalev's estimate 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Not knowing what they are doing ? - Cite:  Of the estimated 25,000 killed in the invasion of Grozny, it is estimated that 18,000 were killed by mid January. According to General Dudayev, the first president of the Chechen Republic, 85 percent of civilians killed in the invasion (approximately 25,500) were ethnic Russians due to the fact that the Chechens were the first to evacuate the capital; this estimate is close to the figure put forward by Russian human rights campaigner Sergei Kovalyov, who estimated the number of ethnic Russian deaths at 24,000 That claim seems somewhat, to say the least, uncredible. How should the Russian Armed Forces "achieved" that kill in such a short period of time ? By employing its Strategic Bomber Forces, or what ? --213.172.123.242 (talk) 16:31, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  ...and, btw., the late Separatist leader Dudayev himself is surely a very reliable source for such kind of claims. --213.172.123.242 (talk) 22:57, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unwilling Russian Forces killed Ethnic Russians in the thousands in Grozny, 1994/95 ? 

message: Hi. You say "i can't detect the PoV issue here, please bring it up on the talk page". And I say: in the article there is no information about the "heavy" (heavy relative to what?) losses of the Russian army and the "fall" in the morale of the troops, as indicated in the controversial text. This is just someone's (pro-Chechen) opinion not reflected by reference to reliable sources. How it even matter discuss on Talk page? There are obvious problems with WP:NPOV and WP:LEAD should be fixed.31.40.131.100 (talk) 22:25, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems subjective that you would perceive this as pro-Chechen. Why does it have to be pro-Chechen if the Russian army faced difficulties? If this is not verified in the cited sources, then say that, instead of complaining about PoV. I'll go and check the sources now. twsabin 22:31, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Update: I read the article, and briefly looked at some of the sources. The content in the lead that you tried to remove seems like a decent summary of the body. For example, look at the section Battle of Grozny (1994–1995)#Summary of the New Year’s Eve battle. It describes Russian heavy losses, and it is sourced. twsabin 22:35, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I read this piece of article. There source indeed does claim "heavy losses" and a "fall in morale" among the MVD and OMON (police forces), but this only applies to one day of the battle on December 31, at the same time we have a source on the information panel who claims that for the entire Battle, lasting at least 9 days, the Russians lost from 1,426 to 2,000 people out of 60,000 who participated in the battle. Is it a considered heavy loss? It seems to me that the article in lead section should not give out one episode of the battle for the whole picture of what is happening.31.40.131.100 (talk) 23:13, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree to some extent. I made a change in the lead to reduce the use of strong epithets which amounted to editorializing. It is true that the losses were significant and that the impact on morale was severe, and this is well attested in the sourced content in the body. But no need to say "very heavy losses" etc. twsabin 23:29, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  February 2022