Talk:Raphael Kalinowski

message: In my references, I've seen the school that he attended (and where his father Andrew taught mathematics) listed variously as "the Institute of Nobles", the "Nobiliary Institute," and "the Nobility College", but I think those may be euphemisms for some other school, perhaps even Vilnius University.  Can anyone else verify this?  Elonka 02:15, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Institute for Nobles was a secondary school. It's likely his academic education was this School of Agriculture at Hory-Horki, near Orsha. this Polish source calls it the Instytut Agronomiczny and states he attended it only for 2 years, and then moved to Mikołajewska Szkoła Inżynierii in Petersburg (Nicholayev Engineering Academy in our article). I cannot find any reference he attented the Vilnius University.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 12:45, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nice job on the other school research.  I'm enjoying seeing the actual school names.  :)  Elonka 00:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vilna College 

message: Any advice if they should be moved or not would be appreciated (Saint Kazimierz Jagiełło and Saint Hyacinth Odrowąż perhaps?).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:22, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Saint Casimir]] and [[Saint Hyacinth]] 

message: Hi, how's everybody doing? The article says he was born in Poland. Is this true? Or was he born in Lithuania? Wasn't he technically born in the Russian Empire in Russia? The prokonsul Piotrus wants to move the English Raphael to the more polonized Rafał. What's up? It's the English Wikipedia version we are dealing with here. I dare say I bet I'll get more "google" hits on the name Raphael than Rafał. And SylwiaS, why haven't you or your friends changed Wilno to Vilnius?Dr. Dan 20:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article doesn't say he was born in Poland. It said he was born in occupied Poland under Russian control (I corrected it to link to partitions of Poland). Please note that 'Poland' is often used to refer to the federation of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, feel free to improve that sentence so there is no misunderstanding. Besides, I didn't want to move it, I suggested discussing if the name is correct above. Sheez. I find it amusing that on your user page you call yourself as a pacifist, yet you seem to enjoy starting flame wars.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Unbelievable. Where have I ever seen "a German, born in Polish-occupied Danzig"?! That's the kind of thing we're talking about! Can't we even try to keep it neutral? I changed the nationalism-infested "born as Józef Kalinowski in the city of Wilno, in Poland under Russian partition (currently, Vilnius, Lithuania)" to the neutral "was an ethnic-Polish Discalced Carmelite friar born as Józef Kalinowski in the city of Vilnius, Lithuania." This seems very reasonable. - Calgacus 21:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Unbelievable, indeed! Are you going to become my stalker? I can hardly see any post of yours without mentioning my name. Are you going to check now every article I have ever contributed to and ask questions of me? I'm afraid I have no time to sustain your couriosity every time you wish. Also, please, if you're going to drag me throughout all the talk pages, at least be fair about what I did. I guess you refer to this diff . The text was saying: ...born as Józef Kalinowski in the city of Wilno, in Poland under Russian occupation (currently, Vilnius, Lithuania). I only moved the interlink from Vilnius to Wilno, which was mentioned first. That's what we do in all Wiki articles - link the first mentioning, I didn't remove the name Vilnius or the statement that it's in Lithuania. Also, Calgacus' current version is incorrect. Wilno was in Poland since 1791, so he was a Pole born in Poland (although under partition), not an ethnic Pole born in a foreign country. BTW Your comment about what Poles can do or not is of course extremely rude, and unless you calm your nerves I'll stop responding to any of your posts.--SylwiaS | talk 04:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Is Vilnius not in Lithuania now? As Lithuania was "in Poland", by which you mean controlled by the Polish state, on your logic you should be happy that Vilnius is listed as being in Lithuania. - Calgacus 06:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Poland didn't occupy Wilno after 1791, just as Germany didn't occupy Wrocław prior to 1945. So I'm afraid that you cannot change Breslau to Wrocław every time you see it. It would violate Gdansk/Vote results which among others say that every German born in Polish soil should have written the German name of their mother town and the Polish name in brackets. I.e. X born in Breslau (now Wrocław, Poland). But well, it seems that Poles can't be so lucky as Germans even when they were born in what was then their own country, while Germans can have it even when the land got under Germany rule as a result of German aggression like Gdańsk, Poznań etc. Also, please, I don't think that Vilnius is a Polish city today or that it should be, but I also don't think that May Constitution was a form of occupation.--SylwiaS | talk 15:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hi Gang!

message: I saw that someone had gone through the article and changed everybody's first names to the Polish equivalent.  I went and re-checked my books to see how the first names are listed in the English-language biographies, and have put the names back to English versions.  This means "George" not "Jerzy", "Joseph" not "Jozef", "Charles" not "Karol", etc.  
If someone can point me to an English-language book that uses the Polish spellings, please let me know.  To my knowledge I own every single one of them, but if there's one I missed, I'm very interested in knowing about it.  In the meantime, we stick with the form of the names that is used in the published biographies. Polish spelling = Polish Wikipedia.  English spelling = English Wikipedia.  Capiche? Elonka 19:54, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proper names 

message: Please, read this Wikipedia:Naming conventions/Geographic names--SylwiaS | talk 18:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Have already done so. But why? - Calgacus 18:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have, then why you keep reverting it?--SylwiaS | talk 20:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe if you read it you'd find out. - Calgacus 20:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wilno vs. Vilnius 

message: Ethnic Poles (that is emigrants from Poland) and Poles are separate terms. Kalinowski was a Pole, like all the other Poles living in occupied Polish teritory in 19th century. Anyone who contradicts it, says that there were no Poles at all. That's not true.--SylwiaS | talk 20:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. All poles, excepts non-Poles native to the territory of Poland, are ethnic Poles. - Calgacus 20:39, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you read the definition I linked to? And no, I am of Polish nationality, but I'm not 100% ethnic Pole, and I guess no one in Poland is.--SylwiaS | talk 20:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I did. - Calgacus 20:43, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great! So the definition is disregarded by you: The word Pole can be defined as follows: Poles are people considered to be Poles by being in any way connected to the Polish (former or current land), language, ethnicity, or culture.? Are you now going to change all Poles born in 19th century to ethnic-Poles? Maybe you want to change the 20th century Poles to ethnic-Poles too? After all we're nothing more but descendants of ethnic-Poles with Russian, German or Austrian citizenship?--SylwiaS | talk 20:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know where you get some of your thinking from, honestly. And what does it matter to you anyway, Vilnius wasn't in Poland then, it was in Russia. - Calgacus 21:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, in some periods whole Poland wasn't in Poland only somewhere else. But Poles didn't emigrate, they remained in place. Similarly if someone was born in Warsaw in 1940 would you call him an ethnic Pole?--SylwiaS | talk 21:14, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, but because he is Polish, not because he didn't live in Poland. Anyways, you don't seem to be building up a very decent case. - Calgacus 21:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you know, there is a poet I like very much. I always thought he was Scottish, but now it seems I must have been wrong. Robert Burns must have been nothing more but an ethnic Scot living abroad. The same must be wrote in biographies of Irvine Welsh, Robert Louis Stevenson, James Hogg, Sir Walter Scott etc. Good. Will you go now and change their biographies?--SylwiaS | talk 21:36, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If these guys had been born in Ulster or Carlisle (two places ruled or partly ruled by the Scots back in the day), you might have a point; they were not Gaelic speakers in any case, so couldn't really be called "ethnic Scots". - Calgacus 21:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually, if you want an "ethnic Pole" debate that I'll agree with you on, let's try at Eduard Strasburger.  He's routinely listed as a "famous German botanist", even though he was born in Warsaw, as were many of his relatives.  I should know, he's in my family tree.  It's true that he became famous in Bonn, but his roots were in Poland, and every elderly relative I've talked to about him, confirms that he was Polish, not German.  Elonka 21:48, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He quite confirmed it himself. He named his son Juliusz, not Julian. He should be Polish-German as Zbigniew Brzezinski is Polish-American. BTW Maybe then you're related to Karol Strasburger, Polish actor ?--SylwiaS | talk 22:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hmm, maybe!  I haven't been able to keep up with all of the modern day Strasburger family, but if you can find a family tree for him that shows grandparents/great-grandparents, I'll take a look to see if there are any names that I recognize.  I do know that I'm related to Henryk Leon Strasburger, who was a member of the Polish government-in-exile during WWII.  Hey, as an aside, did you see my translation request at Talk:Rodryg Dunin?  I'd love if you could take a stab at that, and then I'll fold stuff into the article. Elonka 01:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text:  Haha. Reminds me of Robert I of Scotland, routinely called "Norman" but in fact, ignoring his name, he was just as Gaelic as anyone else from Carrick in the era. Well, I'm going to be interested to see how our friends here change that article, now that they're aware of it. :) - Calgacus 21:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

text: So, are you going to write that those guys were/are not Scottish?--SylwiaS | talk 22:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not going to write about them at all. - Calgacus 22:20, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see.--SylwiaS | talk 22:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Poles#Ethnic_Poles|Ethnic Poles]] 

message: Calgacus, please, bring any sources that will say that he wasn't a Pole but an ethnic Pole. For now it's nothing more than your WP:POV.--SylwiaS | talk 21:25, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid you must not understand the English language properly. Pole and ethnic-Pole are not exclusive concepts. Anyways, Vilnius was in Russia at the time, and it don't particularly matter that it was previously part of the Lithuanian part of the Polish-Lithuania commonwealth. Call him a Pole if you like, but stop calling Vilnius Wilno (and don't BTW try to dress up two issues as one). It is nationalistic and not in accordance with modern English, the language of this encyclopedia. - Calgacus 21:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The rules of this encyclopedia allow to call Vilnius Wilno in a historical context. And it's the case with Kalinowski. If the article was about a member of Polish minority in Lithuania today, I wouldn't have a problem with calling him an ethnic Pole living in Vilnius. Anyway, describing him as a Pole born in Wilno is in accordance with all the rules of Wiki, so why you keep reverting it?--SylwiaS | talk 21:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nu uh; but you're funny. I'm sure your quite backward-looking and rampant nationalism (evidenced here and other articles) you could manipulate one to make it justify calling Vilnius Wilno, but what's the point? It's name is Vilnius, and it was in Russia then (which you keep ignoring), so you can call it Vilnius or Вильно, but not Wilno. Otherwise, we can start calling New York Nuova York in articles about Italian-Americans, or articles about Gaels from Nova Scotia, we can call Halifax Halafacs and New Glasgow Baile Beag. - Calgacus 22:11, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Vilnius is a modern name. The town wasn't called like that back then . Wilno is the name we use in historical context for Poles born in the town, and Wikipedia says it's proper, as I showed you above. So what's your point except throwing more insults at me?--SylwiaS | talk 22:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  LOL ... "modern", you mean, its the one currently used? Do you wish to call it Vilna then? "Wikipedia" ... does no such thing ... the link you posted above ain't "wikipedia", it's a proposal for naming (so please, only post such things in future when they are relevant, and stop trying to mislead people to suit your own nationalistic agenda). If you get insulted by me accusing you of "rampant nationalism", then stop doing things that are so backward-looking and nationalistic. Otherwise, grow-up and live with it; and wait until I directly insult you before you start blubbering paranoid, over-sensitive indignation. Anyways, in the interests of neutrality, I redid the opening section; now everyone can know its Polish and Russian names, and the little history lecture is retain in the opening section. - Calgacus 22:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Calling people "nationalists" is highly offensive and absolutely inappropriate on Wikipedia. Whenever you lack valid arguments, you start your annoying name calling that doesn't prove anything, except that you need to grow up first, before working here with others. Also, your version of "neutrality" is biased and completely unacceptable. Space Cadet 23:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hey, I never called anyone a nationalist. I described the editing behaviour as nationalistic, which it is (and you just called my editing biased, so quit whinging). If you don't like me desribing it like that, then that's just tough. I thought you wanted to inform people what it was called back then? I put those in brackets, the Russians called it by their name, the Poles by their name? Why have you removed that so it only shows the Polish name, with the modern English name in brackets, and the Russian name omitted? You want to have everything your own way. In the Nicolaus Copernicus article there was a dispute about his Polishness, and about the inclusion of a Polish name. I came in, kept the Polish name, said that I didn't have a problem calling him Polish, and put the German name after the Polish name in a genuine attempt to appease everyone and bring compromise. Yet that still wasn't enough, you had to remove the German name, even though many editors believe that he was German and had a German background. And I'm biased? LOL. As for the other nonsense, go post it on the Polish notice board where it might be taken seriously, not at me ;). - Calgacus 23:25, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Why won't you bring any sources to any discussion at last? Or why you won't change all Danzings to Gdańsks, or all Scottish people to Brits? Is neutrality your real interest, or you just like disparaging articles related to Poland, with very little knowledge about the topic in general? If you disagree with me, bring sources to back your POV. And please, it's the last time I ask you to stop insulting me. BTW You're bordering on breaking the WP:3RR--SylwiaS | talk 23:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sources? What on earth are you talking about. Do you even know what a source is? Yes, neutrality is my real interest. I'm genuinely scared that English wikipedia is going to be marred with the agenda of new eastern European nationalism, and the activities of you, Space Cadet, Molobo, and in general the community of Wikipedia talk:Polish Wikipedians' notice board, are making a joke of the neutrality of this encyclopedia. Why else would I be taking an interest in this page?! - Calgacus 23:25, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  rv war 

message: "Vilnius is a modern name. The town was'nt called like that back then (sic)". Is that an absurd statement or what? Evidently not according to its author, SylwiaS. Vilnius is not a modern name. It is the Lithuanian name of a Lithuanian city. It has other names in other languages. Is that easy to understand or is another rant forthcoming? Dr. Dan 15:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Here We Go Again

message: This is absurd. As I said before should we name Karol Wojtyła as Charles ?
--Molobo 23:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See the "Proper Names" section, above. --Elonka 07:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I am giving the original names back

message: Because I am a blood relative of Saint Raphael, I have come into possession of the first known English translation of his memoirs.  This is a fascinating document of great historical significance, as it details his involvement with the growing Polish insurrection against the Russian occupation (actions which later resulted in his arrest, death sentence, and banishment to Siberia).  The translation has evidently been compiled by a 95-year-old Carmelite nun, whose permission I am attempting to gain, so that I may make her translation public.  But in the meantime does anyone have an opinion on whether or not such a translation can be listed as a reference on the Wikipedia page?  I am of two minds on it -- on the one hand, the translation is definitely  not yet published.  On the other hand, it's a complete manuscript, which is clearly a translation of a Polish-language document which is published.  What do other Wikipedia editors think? --Elonka 19:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Saint Raphael's Memoirs

message: The subject of the article is a saint, and thus inherently notable, but shouldn't there be references other than those published by an admitted blood relative to back up more of this article? Surely, there are better sources. --208.181.90.67 20:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Choices of references 

message: I have removed it.  In my opinion, it did nothing to improve the article.--Rockfang (talk) 22:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  the trivia section 

message: According to the Wikipedia disambiguation page, there are four Czernas in Poland.  Which one is the place where St. Raphael is buried? 76.123.208.229 (talk) 13:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: To the best of my knowledge, it's Czerna, Lesser Poland Voivodeship, near Wadowice. --Elonka 17:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Which Czerna?

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: His name is given in two different forms, Joseph in Polish and Raphael in Lithuanian.  Apart from any question of nationality, did he work in Lithuanian?  Did Lithuanians speak to him in Lithuanian and call him by the Lithuanian name Rapolas? --134.153.14.13 (talk) 15:15, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  two different names?