Talk:Dragut

message: Wonderful work, congratulations.  Turgut is also my dad's name.  I summer a few miles from Turgutreis every other year, and I had no idea he was born there.  What a life, what an adventure... where are these men now?--Murat (talk) 15:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Praise

message: The article said in the Djerba section that "he landed in Granada". Granada is not a seaport so I'm guessing he landed in the Granada coast, right? Probably Almuñecar. Anyway, I found this reference in this regard http://www.almunecar.com/Visitors_Guide/Sightseeing/Watchtowers.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mountolive (talk • contribs) 00:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Granada?

message: Turgut Reis is comes from Turkish origin, his name also approves it, Turgut was a very old Turkish word. 
Someone said "He was captured and taken prisoner by the corsairs in his youth and had converted to Islam." That is untrue, if he is born and living in that region, he couldn't be capture or taken prisoner by the corsairs, because he is also from Corsair's homeland, Aydin-Mentese region. 
And who said this thesis, he didn't know anything about Ottoman Law and Administration above subject. In Ottoman land, no one can captured or taken prisoner if he/she is not guilty or criminal because he/she is from Christian or Jewish origin. All the religious groups and people had equal rights. 
Turgut didn't converted Islam or Turkish! Any one never made any man to convert to his own nation, especially in Ottoman. At first paragraph, that is said, he is Turkish; at Early Career part, he is becoming greek ? That is very ridiculous. 
All other nations in Ottoman were free and were able to free expression. Anyone can express himself a Greek, Georgian, Armenian, Albanian. There are lots of Greek or Armenian Pashas then Turks. Thinking of he is Greek is just an imagination. 
Turgut is a Turkish corsair and at his childhood times, he was always thinking of holy war against Crusaders and for that, he acuumulate to buy a ship then set sail to Mediterranean. He was a zealous for his ideals.
If one looks only at the name then the osmans had only turkish servants captains or military leaders/viziers. However a lot of them was not turkish but born albanian or greek or whatever region of the ottoman empire - and later used a turkish or turkified name when they rose to a position of power. So Turgut being a turkish name is no proof that Turgut was born in Turkey - especially as there are several versions of his name, e.g. Dragut.
Your assumption that all religions gruops and people had equal rights is either total ignorance or at worst propaganda - of course NOT all religious groups in the Ottoman Empire had the same rights, e.g. the head tax, devshirme ConjurerDragon (talk) 10:33, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turgut Reis is not from Greek Descendant 

message: The Ottoman Empire was just like the Roman Empire, the peoples had different origins, there is no need to mention all the origins because all of them were just considered as Ottomans as the peoples in the Roman Empire were considered as Romans.
Turgut Reis was raised as an Ottoman and lived his life as an Ottoman as he spoke the Ottoman Turkish language. Redman19 (talk) 11:53, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Greekness was important especially for the Ottoman Navy. Traditionally, the best seamen had been drawn from the subject Greeks, but the War of Independence cut off this source of supply.Bernd Langensiepen, Ahmet Güleryüz, The Ottoman Steam Navy, 1828-1923, p. 1.
===Sources===
Can you provide me a source where Turgut Reis states he is proud of his "Greekness"? 
Or anything else where he is relating to his Greek background.
Many Greeks who were against Ottoman rule kept their own identity and participated in the War of Independence against the Ottomans.
Turgut Reis was a Greek in origin but he was an Ottoman at top, again there is no need to mention the origin of every figure in the Ottoman Empire, thats just nonsense. Redman19 (talk) 09:36, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

text: First I have not a single edit in the current article. Just happened to see the discussion & gave my opinion without changing a single letter on its text. 2nd I thought the discussion was about whether or not we must mention his origin, & I answered only to that, if I misunderstood it accept my apologies. 3rd About Aniston, you are right for her article but is common by many media to address her as Greek-American actress although she is not really  of 100% greek ancestry. I can't see why not Turgut Reis for the reasons already explained above. I don't want to create an issue over it although I honestly can't see the reason you reverted Takabeg. I don't know him & I've never exchanged a word with him, but from what I have seen from his past edits he is a very cool minded and objective editor, never opening fights over stupid nationalistic things & I have not a clue about his nationality, which is the best indication of his neutrality as an editor, and if I may, wish every editor in WP to be like him; WP would become a better place. 4th It is common place to mention the basics of some person including his origin in the lede although a full biography usually is present in the articles. The first paragraph you mentioning is the lede and to this there is no second, what you mentioning as the second is the biography chapter. By necessity everything that is presenting in the lede is a repetition compared to the full body of the article, I think this was the reason for Takabeg's edit which I think is absolutely normal. But what I really couldn't understand the most is that together with his origin from the lede you also removed his origin from the infobox although the Ottoman was present and his origin is clearly mentioned in his biography. I don't know that if he was of Turk origin you would did the same, but if so, it would be also wrong. Can you please put it back? --62.38.121.164 (talk) 17:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

text: OK. What I am trying to tell is that today American IS a nationality. Ottoman was not. And is not. Aniston is indeed an American in nationality, is Greek etc. by origin.--62.38.121.164 (talk) 22:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

text: Look he had the very Greekness of his origin. Which is the problem we have as to how to call him. I already agreed with that "there wasn't anything like Greek Ottoman". You are right and historically accurate on that. For their time they had solve the problem, given that they were lucky not to have to do with nationalities or even origins. But we live today, we write today and we have to explain it based upon the today realities, with nationalities and origins. OK there's no need for rush, I appreciate your tries in good faith, lets sleep on it in the hope to find an elegant solution. I will not touch it before we will agree on a formula, if we find any. Cheers, (I don't know Dunga) --62.38.121.164 (talk) 23:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  No need to mention origins 

message: Can you provide me a source where Turgut Reis states he is proud of his "Greekness"? 
Or anything else where he is relating to his Greek background.
Many Greeks who were against Ottoman rule kept their own identity and participated in the War of Independence against the Ottomans.
Turgut Reis was a Greek in origin but he was an Ottoman at top, again there is no need to mention the origin of every figure in the Ottoman Empire, thats just nonsense. Redman19 (talk) 09:36, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: First I have not a single edit in the current article. Just happened to see the discussion & gave my opinion without changing a single letter on its text. 2nd I thought the discussion was about whether or not we must mention his origin, & I answered only to that, if I misunderstood it accept my apologies. 3rd About Aniston, you are right for her article but is common by many media to address her as Greek-American actress although she is not really  of 100% greek ancestry. I can't see why not Turgut Reis for the reasons already explained above. I don't want to create an issue over it although I honestly can't see the reason you reverted Takabeg. I don't know him & I've never exchanged a word with him, but from what I have seen from his past edits he is a very cool minded and objective editor, never opening fights over stupid nationalistic things & I have not a clue about his nationality, which is the best indication of his neutrality as an editor, and if I may, wish every editor in WP to be like him; WP would become a better place. 4th It is common place to mention the basics of some person including his origin in the lede although a full biography usually is present in the articles. The first paragraph you mentioning is the lede and to this there is no second, what you mentioning as the second is the biography chapter. By necessity everything that is presenting in the lede is a repetition compared to the full body of the article, I think this was the reason for Takabeg's edit which I think is absolutely normal. But what I really couldn't understand the most is that together with his origin from the lede you also removed his origin from the infobox although the Ottoman was present and his origin is clearly mentioned in his biography. I don't know that if he was of Turk origin you would did the same, but if so, it would be also wrong. Can you please put it back? --62.38.121.164 (talk) 17:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

text: OK. What I am trying to tell is that today American IS a nationality. Ottoman was not. And is not. Aniston is indeed an American in nationality, is Greek etc. by origin.--62.38.121.164 (talk) 22:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

text: Look he had the very Greekness of his origin. Which is the problem we have as to how to call him. I already agreed with that "there wasn't anything like Greek Ottoman". You are right and historically accurate on that. For their time they had solve the problem, given that they were lucky not to have to do with nationalities or even origins. But we live today, we write today and we have to explain it based upon the today realities, with nationalities and origins. OK there's no need for rush, I appreciate your tries in good faith, lets sleep on it in the hope to find an elegant solution. I will not touch it before we will agree on a formula, if we find any. Cheers, (I don't know Dunga) --62.38.121.164 (talk) 23:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Halikarnas Balıkçısı (Cevat Şakir Kabaağaçlı)'s Turgut Reis is a novelized story. Website shown in this article says '...Turgut Reis'in serüvenini romanlaştırırken.... Why do you wrote According to the Ottoman archive, ... with showing this novel as sources ? We can refer to this novel in the Legacy section. Takabeg (talk) 21:32, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Novel !

message: *About this edit. User:Lambiam had used the term dönme. But this was completely wrong. Because dönmeh doesn't be used for Greeks in English historiograph. Even in Turkish language, when dönme is used alone, it means Sabbateans. Murat Belge uses the term Rum dönmesi. -- Takabeg (talk) 15:54, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Murat Belge use this term for Greek renegade ("Oruc and Hayreddin Barbarossa, the sons of a Greek renegade from Mytilene"). Takabeg (talk) 11:46, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Dönme or Dönmeh

message: The Turk or Greek origined issue needs stronger facts. I have viewed the sources citations about the greek claim but all of those references are recent! and it is not clear where these recent references get their data from. I edited them out in place of the stronger = more reliable references of that period and those that cite them. As history wise the strongest reference is of that period's. Same with the argument of Murat Belge, his opinion is not based on any written, cited reference. He just explains his own view which makes it not a historical fact but well... a personal opinion. The Turgut Reis municipality in their right mind started annual symposiums about Turgut Reis and Turkish maritime, naval history in general (you can find the first ones' details in their website), which I think is a very important step into shedding light on the Grande Admiral and his life. In coming years I am hoping we will gather much more reliable data about his life.--Pruva (talk) 23:17, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The term "Turkish" was often used with the meaning of "Ottomans" in sources. So "Turkish" is not always ethnic Turkish. We have to be careful. Takabeg (talk) 00:07, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't quite understand what's the matter at hand, but I'll just say that the "oldest source equals best source" argument is a logical fallacy massive enough to create a crater, possibly a black hole.--LK (talk) 04:26, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

text: What ? User:Pruva removed those sources:
*Reynolds, Clark G. (1974). Command of the sea: the history and strategy of maritime empires. Morrow. pp. 120–121. , 9780688002671. "Ottomans extended their western maritime frontier across North Africa under the naval command of another Greek Moslem, Torghoud (or Dragut), who succeeded Barbarossa upon the latter's death in 1546."
*Naylor, Phillip Chiviges (2009). North Africa: a history from antiquity to the present. University of Texas Press. pp. 120–121. , 9780292719224. "One of the most famous corsairs was Turghut (Dragut) (?–1565), who was of Greek ancestry and a protégé of Khayr al-Din. He participated in the successful Ottoman assault on Tripoli in 1551 against the Knights of St. John of Malta."
*Beeching Jack (1983). The galleys at Lepanto: Jack Beeching. Scribner. pp. 72–73. , 9780684179186. "And the corsairs' greatest leader, Dragut, had also done time, at the oar of a Genoese galley. Dragut was born of Greek parents, Orthodox Christians, at Charabulac on the coast of Asia Minor, but a Turkish governor took a fancy to the boy and carried him off to Egypt."
* Chambers, Iain (2008). Mediterranean crossings: the politics of an interrupted modernity. Duke University Press. pp. 38–39. , 9780822341260. "Neither was the career of Dragut, another Greek whom we find in 1540s on the Tunisian coast and in 1561 installed at Tripoli in Barbary, in place of the Knights of Malta whom the Turks had expelled five years earlier."
*Pauls, Michael ; Facaros, Dana (2000). Turkey. New Holland Publishers. pp. 1860110789, 9781860110788. ISBN 286-287. "It is named after the 16th-century Admiral Turgut (Dragut), who was born here to Greek parents; his mentor Barbarossa, another Greek who 'turned Turk', in a moment of unusual humility declared that Dragut was ahead of him 'both in fishing an bravery’."
*Lewis, Dominic Bevan Wyndham (1931). Charles of Europe. Coward-McCann. pp. 174–175. OCLC 485792029. "A new star was now rising in the piratical firmament, Barbarossa's lieutenant Dragut-Reis, a Greek who had been taken prisoner by the corsairs in his youth and had turned Mahometan."
*Braudel, Fernand (1995). The Mediterranean and the Mediterranean world in the age of Philip II, Volume 2. University of California Press. pp. 908–909. , 9780520203303. "Of all the corsairs who preyed on Sicilian wheat, Dragut (Turghut) was the most dangerous. A Greek by birth, he was now about fifty years old and behind him lay a long and adventurous career including four years in the Genoese galleys."
Takabeg (talk) 10:00, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If multiple academic sources accepted as reliable report an information (whatever that may be) it's not in the place of wikipedia editors to question the soundness of their reasoning, as that would be tantamount to original research. If you feel so strongly about this matter, the most sensible thing you can do is finding other academic sources that state the opposite, and represent both views in the article, not deleting references because in your opinion the historians who authored them are mistaken or biased.--LK (talk) 15:03, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: One more thing I find worth noting: "Historically, Greek Orthodoxy has been associated with being Romios, i.e. Greek, and Islam with being Turkish, despite ethnic or linguistic references." This is from a wikipedia article and it's unreferenced, but if it were true it would blur the lines of 'turkishness' further, especially as no source definitely nails him down as an ethnic Turk.--LK (talk) 15:10, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: The Issue About His Origin: The Need For Stronger References

message: Pirate infobox has nothing to do with Turgut Reis. He is the commander of Ottoman Navy. It's an insult. I think it should be like this one.--Kafkasmurat (talk) 20:54, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pirate? 

message: The name Turgut is an etymologically Turkish name. Unfortunately, the sources stating he was Greek are of course obsolete and highly unreliable. That's why misinformed people should not edit this website...  :/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.160.82.176 (talk) 10:11, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  - 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: My editing is very messy please clean it up, however here are the references that show that his parents were MUSLIM:
* 
* 
Sorry I am new at editing please help me implement the change to remove the part about his parents being Christian as that is untrue and not supported by the majority of literature.
:You are picking sources to suit your point of view while removing those that do not. Slow down and allow time (a week at least) for other editors to comment. Until change is agreed the article stays as it was.Charles (talk) 20:25, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: If there are sources that say one thing and other sources that say another we need to cover both.Charles (talk) 11:01, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dragut's Parents Religion is Disputed 

message: Hello User:Discasto, I think it's great that you've cropped the new information box image, may I suggest that you help to recrop it in such a way that the scale of the statue with the young man sitting below it remains visible? Thanks for the really great initiative and I definitely agree that the original was not centered properly. 
Best regards,
--Cdfi (talk) 14:02, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Here you have it: :File:Istanbul Statue of Turgut Reis IMG 8583 2010.jpg. However, IMHO, the picture in the infobox must focus on providing a close description of the subject of the article and not in highlighting the size of the statues of the subject. It's only an opinion. --Discasto (talk) 14:58, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you User:Discasto - the recrop you've provided now includes the monument's name plate. Will update the infobox image now.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cdfi (talk • contribs) 23:24, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hmm, doesn't look right, the monument still isn't centered in the frame... will have a look tomorrow. --Cdfi (talk) 23:27, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  User:Discasto as I've been blocked on commons (rightly or wrongly), would you mind uploading this version of the image, I've recropped it to include the monument's name plate http://imgur.com/a/GsjT5 thank you  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cdfi (talk • contribs) 12:51, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Recropping of New Free-license Information Box Image 

message: Recent edits by User:2a02:a44e:a90c:1:e595:11d6:8eff:e18 in the article history show that information relating to Dragut's ranks of Pasha and Governor among others has been removed neither justification nor substantiation provided.
I am requesting one of you good people to discover from User:2a02:a44e:a90c:1:e595:11d6:8eff:e18 the rationale behind the change as I do not see the created value. I will allow time for somebody else to have a look before I revert the changes myself.
Sincere regards, and look forward to collaborating with you --Cdfi (talk) 19:01, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Discasto
As I haven't heard from anybody I will revert the removal of information by User:2a02:a44e:a90c:1:e595:11d6:8eff:e18 as referred above. --Cdfi (talk) 13:29, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requesting Rollback of Unexplained Removal of Information 

message: Hi Team, recently changes were made by User:77.166.30.3, removing the statue of Dragut's monument altogether with the reasoning that a smaller image from a different perspective is already elsewhere within the article, supposedly justifying removing the monument as dragut's infobox picture, which has enjoyed silent consensus for a substantial period of time. The other image that was present within the article is lower resolution, and does not serve to show the scale of the monument, it instead looks much smaller than it really is. If one of the two images must go, then it should certainly not be the infobox image which is of much better quality and accuracy. I wonder why this user chose not to open a discussion about it on the talk page first?
I will be reverting these changes tomorrow, should the poster not provide reasoning enough as to why we should go through with the changes without first having some sort of informed discussion about it. --Cdfi (talk) 10:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requesting Rollback of Unjustified Changes to Images 

message: Hello,
Recently 2 edits by User:Lucky_For_You have made bold "The Drawn Sword of Islam" and "the greatest pirate warrior of all time" in the intro paragraph, but has left "the uncrowned king of the mediterranean" unboldened... may I understand the rationale for the selective emphasis? If there is no justification provided in 48 hours I will revert the changes.
Thank you, and best regards,
--Cdfi (talk) 06:56, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bolding Policy 

message: See this revert.  categories should not be based on naming, but on the defining characteristics of this article. This article is a biography of an Ottoman person, that's what categorization should be based upon. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:02, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkey categories 

message: See this revert.  :Category:Ottoman Sunni Muslims is a child category of :Category:Sunni Muslims by nationality is a child category of :Category:Sunni Muslims is a child category of :Category:Muslims by branch is a child category of :Category:Muslims. The article should therefore not be in both :Category:Ottoman Sunni Muslims and :Category:Muslims, per WP:SUBCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:10, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muslim categories 

message: I suggest we switch the Bust and Oil painted image, what do you guys think? 77.166.30.3 (talk) 07:29, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image Discussions 

message: Why would you remove a fine oilpainted picture for a statue thats already in the article? Redman19 (talk) 20:18, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why? 

message: Dragut was a Grand Admiral for most of his naval career, this would translate in Kapudan Pasha which means Grand Admiral or Fleet Admiral, I suggest we should stick to that rank instead of profiling him as just a naval commander. 77.166.30.3 (talk) 07:08, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naval Commander or Grand Admiral? 

message: Fellow editors, the page seems to have been the subject of a sock puppet attack. Please remain vigilant so as to protect this important historical resource. --Cdfi (talk) 16:34, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Sock Puppetry 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I am writing to express concern over multiple edits performed by a user named Drmies, beginning with one on December 7th, 2017.
Their edits have removed much content without any justifiable reason (they said the code view was unreadable, and instead of cleaning up they just deleted) and seem to diminish the article and the subject of the article. I am reverting the edits to the status quo and welcome discussion on the talk page. 
--Cdfi (talk) 05:19, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concern Over Recent Removal of Material Content 

message: Please take a look at MOS:HEADINGS, which says "Section headings should follow all of the guidance for article titles (above), and should be presented in sentence case (Funding of UNESCO projects), not title case (Funding of UNESCO Projects)". This article's headings should be downcased, except for proper names and the first word of each heading. Chris the speller yack 12:15, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalization in headings