Talk:Western Sahara/Archive 3

message: ===>Answer to Koavf and Arre
* First of all I refuse to resort to personal attack and I’ll never accuse any one of lying or being a child. I was really offended. WP principles say clearly to avoid personal attacks.
* SADR isn't recognized by the international community as a legitimate power in the WS, that's a fact. SADR isn't recognized neither by the UN nor by any superpower state but only by 44 countries of what was called the third world (due to the support of Algerian diplomacy), I can assume that those 44 countries did what they thought was in the best interests of their countries (remember that the state of palestine is recognized by 100 states and have a surveillant seat in the UN).
* I spoke with dozens of Sahrawis who studied with me in the medicine university and they say that Sahrawis in WS are 100% pro-Moroccan.
* Maybe the polisario controls some parts of WS, but Morocco has the facto control over the quasi-totality of the territory. Polisario have control over the Tindouf camps (in Algeria) and territories behind the berm which are practically not populated.
* I never provided the Moroccan Governmental site as evidence, I just suggested adding it in the external links of the article for better neutrality. What about all the third party links I provided as evidence in my comments posted in this talk page?
* Sure Sahrawis are a separate group, Berbers too, but they are all Moroccans, it is my POV. Your POV is that Sahrawis don't self identify as Moroccans.
* The ICJ stated clearly that there were allegiance relations between the Sultan of Morocco and some tribes of the region. 
* ARRE said that "Sahrawis are a nation" (not a nation state), I said that could be true. I added that WS is a disputed territory according to the Minurso Reports but not a state. 
* I see that we finally agree that it's virtually impossible to get a reliable estimate of how many people are in the territory.
* A POV about a conflict is necessarily biased when it is opposed by a party of the conflict: Polisario opposes the sentence "WS is Moroccan" and have the right to think that it's biased. Morocco opposes the sentence "SADR is the legitimate power in WS" and have the right to think that this sentence is biased. There is only one fact:"WS is a disputed territory between Morocco and Polisario".
* Every one can look at the history of the page and its talk and confirm that I did made many consensual modifications, ARRE agreed upon many of them, and we was discussing about adding some other stuff in the article in a neutral way. You should re-read the article, its history and  its talk page. 
* Palestine means many things but Palestinian territories means one thing. Both SADR and State of Palestine control a little part of the territories (Gaza Strip for Palestinians) 
* There is every day dozens of new users of WP who want to share their knowledge and opinions. Some thing can be consensual for months and become the opposite after the intervention of new users. For example the "text" of WS article has changed a lot in a consensual way after my intervention and ARRE's (who is a new user) .
* I see that you think that the French WP is a pro-Moroccan encyclopaedia. You said yourself that"All other Wikipedias that have an infobox have this exact same graphic, except the French one, which recently took it off"==> According to you French people was until recently not pro-Moroccan (until exactly 26 August 2005 )???!!!
* I see that you are confusing SADR and WS ==> WS is according to Minurso reports and the UN a territory disputed between Morocco and Polisario. SADR is according to Minurso a proposed state proclaimed by the Polisario front who claims the territory. This proposed state was recognized by 80 states. Since 1989, 31 states cancelled their recognition and 5 froze their relations. You see that SADR had full diplomatic relations with 36 countries who despite of this cancelled or frozen those relations (36 is 45% of 80).
* WS also was under the sovereignty of Morocco for centuries before the colonisation (Since the Almoravides). 
* The flag of polisario isn't recognized by Sahrawis living in Moroccan controlled WS.
* I see that some one is vandalizing my own posts, I wrote "There is simply no justification for keeping it (Flag of Polisario), and a multiplicity of reasons for deleting it". 
* I see that we finally agree that I have a third party support.
* You should take a look at this link . You say that you were in the UN for one day, Witch day? You said that you were heading to the UN in 5 October, you didn't discuss in the WS talk page since 10 October. And you began reverting the infobox since 17 October without any discussion until 20 October. No one discussed with me in WS talk between 14 and 19 October . You see that I provide evidence, I wonder who is lying. 
==>I want to add just one thing
*I don’t have any thing against Arre and Koavf. We are here to discuss and write a WP article not to resolve the WS conflict, We aren’t here to discuss if WS is Moroccan or SADRian. I can’t convince them that WS is Moroccan and they can’t convince me that SADR is the legitimate government in WS. I see that despite of our divergences we succeeded to write a consensual article in a neutral way. There are still many things to add. I’ve already said to Arre to feel free to add comments about human rights and oil debate in a neutral way. The main point of discordance is the Infobox. I explained many times that displaying the flag of Polisario in the WS page isn’t in concordance with WP principles because of anti-moroccan and pro-polisario stance and because the SADR doesn’t have de facto control over the territory. I said many times that this article is about WS (the territory and the people), not about SADR (the proposed state proclaimed by Polisario). "WS isn’t for SADR" what "France is for Republic of France". 
* I was here for a while and I see that all what I say is taken by ARRE and KOAVF for pro-Moroccan POVs. I don't have any thing to do with the Moroccan government. I repeat that if I was defending enough my country I would prefer to display the Moroccan flag in the WS page (Morocco have de facto control over the quasi-totality of the territory, the Moroccan flag does flow over every school, every department and every office in Moroccan controlled WS). I said many times that such a thing wouldn’t be neutral. I wonder if Arre and Koavf are willing to do the same and make the WS page neutral and free of flags.
* If this suggestion isn’t accepted by Arre and Koavf, I suggest 2 solutions:
# Carry on a WP survey
# Or accept the proposal of The Minister of WAR.
* NB: Please separate your comments from mine; Thanks.
Daryou 22:55, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply to Koavf and Arre  

message: *I repeat that we aren't here to discuss whether Western Sahara is Moroccan or not, I repeated my arguments many times and this discussion isn't leading anywhere, You can't convince me that WS is SADRian and I can't convince you that WS is Moroccan. Anyway this discussion won't resolve the WS conflict. And there is many internet forums to carry on such discussions.
* I discuss here whether displaying the Polisario flag in the infobox is neutral or not. According to the UN and according to the article itself, the WS is a territory disputed between Morocco and Polisario and is mostly controlled by Morocco. A WP article have to comply with WP principles of neutrality. In that case by displaying the 2 flags or no flag at all. 
* The Minister of War responded above to your "overturn precedent" argument. 
* Do you mean that you don't accept to carry on a WP survey? 
Daryou 01:38, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Answer to Koavf 

message: There is a typo in the "legal status" link -- should be "status" and not "statues."  Admin, please correct when you get a chance.  --Nlu 15:16, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Typo in Politics section 

message: How would this work as the start of the box with both flags? I dont think the Morocco coat of arms is necessary. In case it gets edited the text Ive used here is:
"Morocco occupies and claims the Western Sahara, but the UN and many countries recognise Western Sahara as an independent state.
The legal status of territory and question of sovereignty is unresolved. The below flag and coat of arms are of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic based in Algeria which is recognised as the government of the Western Sahara by 44 nations"Astrokey44 23:11, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: sorry I didnt realise there already were options shown on the vote page, Ive moved it to Talk:Western Sahara Infobox/Option 4b Astrokey44 23:18, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  both flags infobox