Talk:Donald Friend

message: :::::I agree that compared with the Henson case one can say that this issue is not a "controversy". I am not saying we have to use the word controversy in the Friend article. The issue of Friend's alleged criminality and scholarly whitewash are still revelant to an encyclopedic biographical entry. Once again I think you are exaggerating to bolster your argument; the quote from McMenamin is from a news item dealing primarily with Henson, but that does not negate her quote about Friend, which predates by 6 months the news items about Negara's film. The "obscure radio arts show" is on the national broadcaster, not obscure at all. Also, re Caravaggio, it is fitting that biographcal details be included in an encylopedic article of a prominent artist, in addition to details of their artistry. The opening para of the Caravaggio article includes "In 1606 he killed a young man in a brawl and fled from Rome with a price on his head."...and so on. In relation to Friend, by not using the words "alleged paedophile", or by not including a reference to the ages of the boys he had sex with (the referenced news items include the claim as young as 9 years) the article is POV. --Design (talk) 07:17, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: It has recently been proposed that a new section be added to the article, as follows:
*Section header: Publication of diaries and criminal allegations
*Friend's diaries were published posthumously,http://www.nla.gov.au/pub/frienddiaries.html commencing in 2001, and lead to accusations that the publishers had not been granted permission to publicly name some of Friend's sexual partners, who were minors at the time of their encounters with Friend. There were also accusations that Friend's paedophilia had been whitewashed by Australian art scholars. Reported in The Age in May 2008 Bernadette McMenamin, chief executive of the child protection lobby group Childwise, said of Friend "He wrote diaries describing his sexual abuse of children and yet Australia still looks the other way because he produced beautiful art."http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/photos-in-realm-of-porn-under-state-laws/2008/05/24/1211183189564.html?page=2 Speaking on ABC Radio in November 2008 filmmaker Kerry Negara said of the publishers "instead of embracing those parts of the diaries where he talks about sex with children and adolescents as young as 9, 10, 12 years old in Bali, instead they decided to go down that route of denying it and even kind of turning Friend into a nice culturally accepted paedophile, at best."http://www.abc.net.au/rn/lawreport/stories/2008/2428344.htm In November and December 2008 Negara's film about Friend's sexual behaviour in Bali was discussed on ABC Radio, in The Australian and the Herald Sun.http://www.abc.net.au/rn/artworks/stories/2008/2432641.htmhttp://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24708209-5013571,00.htmlhttp://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24810898-5007146,00.htmlhttp://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_pedophile_an_artist_would_love/ In August 2009 the film A Loving Friend screened at the Melbourne International Film Festival.http://www.melbournefilmfestival.com.au/content/341/film_id/13859.html
Naturally I have no objection to a mention of the diaries - although a single sentence would be enough. What I do object to is the disproportionate attention this proposed section gives to its subject-matter. It gives the reader the impression that a controversy exists around this issue, when in fact it's a non-issue. I googled Donald+Friend+controversy to see what came up, and the result was exactly zero! There is NOTHING about this! IT DOES NOT EXIST! The refs are highly misleading. Bernadette McMenamin is cited as if she's made a major issue of this - but if you follow the reference you find it's a throw-away line, an aside made in the course of an interview on a totally unrelated subject (the Henson controversy, which really WAS a controversy, unlike this). Kerry Negara is cited as if she's important, but in fact her documentary if almost impossible to find on Google and didn't even get reviewed in the Sydney Morning Herald's coverage of the Melbourne Film Festival. This section fails the notability test. PiCo (talk) 12:15, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I am happy to wait until someone else joins in, but it is very likely that some variation of the material will be restored in due course because WP:BLP does not apply, there is no hint of defamation, the material is extremely relevant to the subject's life (his own diaries), and is extremely well sourced (the National Library of Australia and major Australian media outlets). I think it would be appropriate for the section heading to be simplified, and there is no need to mention "criminal allegations", since legal speculation is not relevant (the activity took place in Indonesia before 1980, and I see no reliable source with information on whether "criminal allegation" is appropriate). It could be argued that the failure of the publisher to protect privacy is not a topic for this article, and the apparent whitewashing of pederasty in Indonesia in the 1970s may also belong in another article. However, I think some mention of the "A Loving Friend" film is necessary here. Johnuniq (talk) 12:43, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope I made clear in my comment above the basis of my objection, but I'll restate it: (1) The accusation that the publishers of Friend's diaries failed to seek/gain permission from some of the now-adults he once had sex with, some 20 or more years earlier, is trivial - in other words, my own reaction is, so what? Nor is it an active issue today - the "controversy" does not exist. (2) The accusation that Friend's pederasty has been whitewashed by "the establishment" is also trivial and verging on ludicrous - as Noel Coward once said of his own homosexuality, there may be a few old ladies who still don't know that DF liked little boys, but not many. (3) McMenamin's remark is being taken out of context - she was accusing the "art establishment" of trying to pass Bill Henson's pornographic photos off as art, and using Friend as an example of such behaviour in the past (that's McMenamin's reading of Henson, not mine). (4) Kerry Negara's documentary has sunk without trace - it didn't get reviewed, I don't think it got taken up (sold), and it's not a notable source. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a whole section on this subject is overkill. We already say he was a pederast - in fact it's a quote of his own words. For God's sake leave it at that!PiCo (talk) 14:16, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think the publishing permission is trivial, but I see your point that the issue is not relevant here, and I now agree that the section is inappropriate. Perhaps a sentence on the film might be added, particularly if a reliable source with an analysis of the issues can be found. Johnuniq (talk) 00:31, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad we can agree in general terms. The diaries certainly need to be mentioned, but I feel the mention should concentrate on the reasons for their notability - they'll certainly be used as a source by future biographers of the important figures mentioned in them, such as Drysdale and Olley, so that's one aspect. If you feel so strongly that the question of permissions is important I guess it's ok, but as I said I can't see that it matters - it was all 20 to 30 years ago. Ok, add something to the article. PiCo (talk) 02:03, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the new section, party because there had been no response to my previous responses to Pico's objections. Once again Pico I think you are exaggerating your case, against NPOV, claiming mainstream sources as "minor", and so on. (1) The addition I made does not use the word "controversy". (2) All referenced subject matter is sourced from major outlets (which your previously disparaged) and is relevant to Friend's legacy. (3) Pederasty is different to Paedophilia, see Wikipedia's own definition. (3) McMenamin's quote is relevant and neither "out of context" or "highly misleading" as you claim. (4) Whether you "think" Negara's documentary has been "sold" or is your POV, and irrelevant. (5) See my previous comments about the Wikipedia article on Caravaggio. --Design (talk) 10:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed new section 

message: My father tells of himself and a friend on a shooting holiday in Hill End being asked to join Donald Friend and (poet and Bulletin man) Douglas Stewart for the day.  They had kangaroo tail soup (hmm) for lunch at the house and apparently dad nearly shot Douglas Stewart in the head swinging wildly at a harassing magpie. 210.50.143.21 (talk) 22:20, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hill End 

message: Hello, I came across Hillendiana by Friend on the Yowie page - Note 23. I have found a NLA page that mentions it amongst others at "Friend Collection" but am not sure where to put in article. I thought maybe External Links but all but one, another nla page, were broken. It's all too much for this new editor.--JennyOz 20:03, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hillendiana and other works 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: After yet another revert, I've submitted a request for semi-protection on this article. I've also changed the word 'paedophile' to 'child molester' in the introduction, just to avoid any confusion about technical definitions of sexuality. Plus I've added an additional citation in the intro. Finally, as mentioned above - on 17 January 2017 under 'POV?' - please discuss your justifications before making any further reverts. - Meticulo (talk) 11:10, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: My request has been declined on the basis of "not enough recent disruptive activity". So I've added a 'Controversial' template at the top of this page, and we'll see how we go from there. - Meticulo (talk) 01:00, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

text: "Donald Stuart Leslie Friend (6 February 1915 – 16 August 1989) was an Australian artist and diarist. He has been the subject of controversy since the publication of diaries in which he wrote of having sex with boys as young as nine years."
-- Meticulo (talk) 23:07, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The diaries don't mention sex with 9 year olds.PiCo (talk) 11:25, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Page protection request

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified