Talk:Australian Government/Archive 2

message: Okay, I have restored the opening sentence and made some additional changes that I hope will be acceptable. First of all, I moved the "Head of state" section down below the "Structure of the government" section. Given the relative power and prominence of the head of state in the Australian system, it strikes me that this is not the subject that should lead off the article, though I'm willing to listen if people think it is.
The republican movement is now its own subsection within the "Head of state" section, because it's more about this aspect than the general governmental structure. The theories about already being a republic and two heads of state are basically all in the context of this debate, so I think that's the appropriate place for them to be mentioned, and they are properly attributed to sources.
Also, as a minor stylistic issue, I wrote "Governors-General" because in my experience this is the correct way to say this rather unusual plural in formal writing. If for some reason my usage here or elsewhere is not correct by the lights of Australian English style, please change it. --Michael Snow 18:38, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  After unprotection 

message: Can we work towards getting a lead section? - Ta bu shi da yu 02:46, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead section 

message: :We have the Queen the title of Queen of Australia, but we did not give her the title of head of state.
:Aherm, again, by convention, contention notwithstanding. Please cease from playing with semantics. Supplanting the word in this way amounts to original reserach, and strikes me as an intellectually dishonest tactic. That said, I urge you, Adam, to maintain an imperturable stance, as you did directly above (but unlike as you did directly above that). Moving right along, onwards in this circular path, Thomas Ross in Colony and empire: A broad background to Australia's subservient relationship with Britain, writes in the 'The Queen: an unaccpetable head of state for Australia,' that:
::Australia does not have a truly Australian Head of State. Our Head of State is an English Queen, who is not an Australian, does not live in Australia and, worst of all in terms of our national dignity, has her principal loyalty and commitment to another country (her country, the United Kingdom).87 [bald and italics are my emphasis]
:87 Malcolm Turnbull. "Addressing the Republic" in: David Headon, James Warden, and Bill Gammage (eds.) Crown or country: The traditions of Australian Republicanism (Allen and Unwin, St. Leonards, New South Wales, 1994). pp. 130-1.
::Looking at my copy of Crown or Country, I am puzzled about your quote. On pp130-1, Malcolm Turnbull (a partisan source if ever there was one!) actually says Legalities aside, however, the monarchy simply is not Australian because the monarch is not an Australian, does not live in Australia and, worst of all in terms of our national dignity, has her principal loyalty and commitment to another country (her country, the United Kingdom). I very much agree with Turnbull on this point, and support the removal of the Queen from our affairs as soon as we can find an acceptable method of replacing her only real input, that of appointing the Governor-General, however I wonder at Ross making changes to Turnbull's quote, seemingly to make the very point you are looking for. In the very next paragraph, Turnbull goes on to describe the Governor-General as a deputy, a substitute, a stand-in for someone else. I reject this interpretation entirely because the Governor-General's constitutional powers do not derive from the Queen, but from the people. The events of 1975 leave us in no doubt that the Governor-General used his own powers in his own right with no direction from the Queen.
::Thomas Ross seems to be merely presenting the popular view that the Queen of England is the head of state. Maybe there is some scholarly argument for his view, but if so, you have not presented it. Nevertheless, it is easy enough to rack up an informed view in opposition. On page 108 of Crown or Country, Professor Stuart Macintyre talks of the vice-regal head-of-state such as we have now in the context of merely changing one title (that of Governor-General) for another (President). Getting back to Thomas Ross, a few sentences after the words you quote, he says "most Australians do not believe that the sovereignty of our nation resides in the Crown - our national sovereignty resides within the Australian people. ". I find this somewhat startling, because although he is quite correct at the source of sovereignty, I would not have thought that "most Australians" shared his view. In fact I would say that most Australians, if asked the source of ultimate power, would indicate the Queen. Still earlier, Ross makes reference to the supposed involvement of the CIA in the 1975 dismissal. He seems to give it some credence in that he does not dismiss it out of hand. Another contributor to this debate also sought the guidance of the CIA, in defining the "Chief of State".
::You hint at circular arguments. Perhaps you could show precisely the path by which you come to this conclusion, because I am unable to detect any circularity in my own statements. Perhaps I am standing too close to the fire. Skyring 16:56, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Enough circularity already

message: Arguing with trolls like Skyring only encourages them. That's what they want. The only way to get rid of trolls is to revert them ruthlessly and without debate. Then they get bored and go away. Adam 11:35, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I reject your view, Adam. I'm interested in ensuring that Wikipedia is accurate and non-partisan, and, quite frankly, debating with you is more a matter of chasing you down rabbit-holes than any intellectual pursuit. From our very first exchanges I thought that I'd found a smartarse teenager because of the swiftness with which you evaded giving any sources and instead turned to abuse. You accused me of being a Young Liberal, something that made me chuckle, when you yourself gave every appearance of being a Usenet campaigner. I asked you to provide sources and you turned to standard Usenet tactics of evasion and abuse. I'm talking four months ago here:  and subsequently until I deleted the whole sorry mess as an embarrassment to both of us, but especially you. Skyring 16:29, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Arguing with trolls