Talk:Dinosaur/Archive 3

message: :"A less likely theory is that the evolution of flowering plants led to the dinosaur's extinction. The theory claims that towards the late Cretaceous period, after co-evolving with flowering plants and grasses, new flowering trees and plants carrying deadly toxins evolved. This would have killed the herbivores who ate them, & in turn would have killed the carnivores also from the shortage of substantial prey." —A brief report on this "theory", if it has been published anywhere, would be worth noting in the article. As it is, it's just a dream, though an original one, to be sure. --Wetman 07:09, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Erm... As far as I know this hypotheses wasn't given much credit even when it was proposed (though I'm not particularly sure on that) mainly because of constraints in evolutionary change that usually give rise to co-evolution of herbivores and plants. What this means is that if there were poisonous plants, which there probably were, the individuals of some species would avoid them, by way of either learned behaviour ("culture") or of hardwired neuronal paths, and populations of other species, by way of mutation and natural selection, would develop resistances to the deadly substances found in leaves. That dinosaurs would die because plants suddenly became poisonous simply doesn't make sense in my view. Unless of course there was lateral gene transmission, though that's untestable. Dracontes 15:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Extinction by Poisonous plants" 

message: There is also another theory of volcanoes causing extinction. Supposedly, a massive volcano (not too sure where) erupted and triggered more volcanoes to erupt. This blanketed the Earth with clouds of ash and sulphur, killing the dinosaurs with extreme cold due to the fact that sunlight could not penetrate it- Flamingice007sg, 18:33,  2nd January 2006
A succession of eruptions in India. There are some articles on it at newscientist among other places, this theory seems to be gaining support and it was recently proved the eruptions were indeed in fairly rapid succession. It should be included in the article Discordance 00:56, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong, unless you want to lose featured article status. One of the main complaints peer reviews had about this article is the mixed sourcing styles. Please use only footnotes.Dinoguy2 16:12, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Volcanic Extinction 

message: This article is a FAC! Drop by and let us know how to improve it. Banana04131 19:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Tyrannosaurus rex]]

message: The whole Dinosaur avian connection section is a shamble! This section was obviously created by a single person wanting to showcase the site which every sentence ends in a link to. Either it should all be compacted, or deleted. I'm for compacting it into a paragraph or two with the links showcased at the end under the external links section. 
Also, the quote from "Dino buzz" at the top is unneeded, & does not further any information in the paragraph. Based from the comments on the failed FA submission, people disliked this too, along with the dozens of unneeded links dotting the article. Although deleting the external links only available in German was easily done by myself, I fear I'll need approval for doing what I've stated above. Post your comments below. If no one has any objection in a couple of days, I'll carry on with the changes. Thanks, Spawn Man 01:50, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Further more, someone keeps adding completely unneeded links at the end of every damn paragraph!! Stop it!! This article is about Dinosaurs, not just  the link between them & birds!! Every paragraph either has a link for the bird connection or the words feathers, birds, avian or bird connection! Create a page on the Avian Dino connection if you will, just stop adding nonsense here!!! Migosh..... some people... Spawn Man 02:57, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

text: ...What? I just noticed this post, odd that it's marked 2006, in the middle of an old conversation. You make no sense. What is or is not a dinosaur is not subject to debae. A dinosaur is defined as either a) the common ancestor of Iguanodon and Megalosaurus plus all its decendants (cladistic), or b) all archosaurs with a hole in the hip socket and therefore an upright leg posture (traditional). Given all available evidence, this means that birds are dinosaurs, sauropods are dinosaurs, "sea serpents" as you put it are not dinosaurs, and pterosaurs are not dinosaurs. Your analogy is bogus too--saying "chimps are humans" is like saying "ankylosaurs are stegosaurs", that is, completely wrong. "Birds are dinosaurs" is more like "mammals are synapsids", technially correct, just not involving commonly known terms.Dinoguy2 19:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We know birds ARE dinosaurs, as I said, I never disputed that! I said however, that there are too many links, too many quotes & to many references to it, considering that Dinosaurs have many interesting things other than that one topic... Spawn Man 01:26, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No dispute against getting rid of the links? Very well, I'll proceed.... Muahahaaaa Spawn Man 01:28, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I have come up with a solution!!! On close inspection of other articles, I noticed something, FOOT NOTES!! This solves our problem! No need to delete links, just foot note them! This will keep everyone happy, don't you agree? Spawn Man 02:14, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Foot notes created after only 4 hours work, (the page history will confirm this!). I deserve a medal........ Everyone happy? Good.... I've probably got deep vein thrombosis now cause of all your links WAS 4.250!! Goodnight... Spawn Man 04:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's why I like perl :)  Would have been much faster!  Maybe there should be some standard footnoting tool for wikipedia? - JustinWick 06:00, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dino-bird link theory & Improvement 

message: I don't have experience setting up footnotes and I don't want to mess this up, so I'll wait a while and see if anyone wants to take the lead here. Anyway, I hadn't noticed this, but somebody at the featured article nomination page pointed it out - almost all the footnotes point to magazine or news articles. It's bad enouhg that these are secondary or tertial sources (finding primaries should be easy, especially using the DML archives ), but I read a lot of news reports on science and, particularly when dinosaurs are involved, the reporters invariably get about 80% of the information flat-out wrong, not to mention the fact that the links change often for online articles. This is not good for an encyclopedia guys! Dinoguy2 15:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll look into it... Spawn Man 22:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revising footnotes 

message: This is listed under pending tasks. Now, about a year ago I and a bunch of other dinophiles added a very in-depth classification to the main entry, which was subsequently erased after we stopped keeping tabs on it. We're now trying to replicate this effort on List of dinosaur classifications. Should some or all of this material be moved to the main entry? Personally I think it might make the whole thing a little cluttered, but what do you guys think? Dinoguy2 22:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's a great idea, just not too detailed & long.... Spawn Man 23:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Detailed classification 

message: All the notes in the article are secondary discussions of primary research. For example in note 1 it tells you that the article which reported the discovery: Italian paleontologists published in the March 26, 1998, edition of the journal Nature the discovery of an extraordinarily well preserved dinosaur. Go to the nature site (this also works for science and new scientist), do a keyword search for the organism or author and it will give you this information:
:Exceptional soft-tissue preservation in a theropod dinosaur from Italy
:Cristiano Dal Sasso, Marco Signore
:SUMMARY: The Lower Cretaceous Pietraroia Plattenkalk (Benevento Province, southern Italy) has been known since the eighteenth century for its beautifully preserved fossil fishes. During Albian
:Nature 392, 383-387 (26 Mar 1998) Letters to Editor
To reference the paper you can do it manually or use a template. The reference would look like this
*Dal Sasso, C. and Singnore, M. (1998). Exceptional soft-tissue preservation in a theropod dinosaur from Italy. Nature 292:383-387
Include the reference with the note. 
Now there are a mixture of references in Harvard style and those using footnotes, this is a Harvard reference:
The end result would again be an unnatural winter, ultimately freezing the dinosaurs (Koeberl et al., 2002) - this should be converted to a note and the reference listed with the note so that a consistent style is applied throughout the article.--nixie 05:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Seconday refs

message: I haven't looked into the history of the article, but the dichotomy of both a notes section and a reference section is rather absurd. I assume that the notes are actually references, but are only separated because of a later introduction of a footnote system. These should be merged as a single Reference section. Some refs as noted above use the Harvard style of referencing while others use a superscripted number link. I am aware that there is some debate about the use of the footnote system partially employed here. I ask before delving into the history, was this discussed or did someone simply start using the footnote system with no discussion or consensus? Whichever way it goes - consistency please - and get rid of that small print Notes section, those are references and as such should be alphabetized. I haven't paid any attention to FAC guidlines lately, are they pushing footnotes there? Vsmith 02:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, Vsmith, it was discussed if you read the FAC for Dinosaur. The harvard style is being converted into foot notes. As you may have already noticed.... Spawn Man 23:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  References vs notes 

message: Can anybody include pronouciations of these critters? (Also Bob Bakker...)  Trekphiler 14:39, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be stupid! Look on the dinosaur's article & usually they have it there... Spawn Man 02:19, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And if I want to read generally about dinos without jumping back & forth to know how it's pronounced, that's stupid? BTW, I've seen those pages, & they don't all include pronounciation...  Trekphiler 08:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Contact the Dinosaur wikiproject if entering the pronounciations of the dinosaur names is in their manual of style. If it is, I'll get right on it. Spawn Man 00:41, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Say what?

message: I'm having trouble finding any references for some of this material, most notably the stuff on the Cenozoic dinosaurs and the Environment changes.  I don't know who added this material, but whoever did, please state where you got the information. Shortly I will be adding a few references to extinction theories and history. --Spangineeres (háblame) 16:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finding references 

message: *The section on climate changes in the Cretaceous reads like a specific hypothesis, and should be sourced.
*The evolution section could use some expansion- are there any phylogenetic reconstructions of the dinosaurs that could be discussed?--nixie 05:42, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Ongoing concerns

message: I have just looked for evidence (or references) to support the articles comments that the El Ojo fossils are contaminents of the Paleocene strata.
I have found none (nothing on old archived talk pages either). Can anyone supply references? If not, I propose a rewrite of this article - especially this section - more along the lines of the published evidence seen here [www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v17/i3/dinosaurs.asp] RossNixon 09:56, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The VERY FIRST sentence at [www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v17/i3/dinosaurs.asp] says: "Evolutionary scientists have proclaimed for years that the dinosaurs died out at the end of the Cretaceous, exactly 65 million years ago." which is incorrect in limiting who is talking (its scientists, not evolutionary scientists), wrong in tone (they don't proclaim, they find data and make conclutions from the data), wrong about lengh of time ("years" is too short, about centuries would be better), wrong about dinosaurs dying out (they did not die out - birds are dinosaurs), and wrong about "exactly". But then what do you expect from a site that proudly proclaims that its mission is to uphold the AUTHORITY of the BIBLE from the first verse. Science and this article uphold the authority of evidence and logic. The same evidence and logic Bible thumpers PROCLAIM exists to test our FAITH. WAS 4.250 20:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've since found more neutral sites that cover this (by searching on "Ojo" not "El Ojo". I'm actually more interested in a source/reference that mentions the conclusion of contamination of the site. RossNixon 09:58, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAIK, there hasn't been a paper demonstrating re-deposition, just speculation on the DML. The Ojo hadrosaur is only known from a single bone dated to 64.5 million years ago, so even the placement of this after the K/T assumes that the K/T event happened exactly 65 mya and not 64, etc. A more complete skeleton from, say, 62 mya would seal the deal, but until one is found, interpreting this one lsightly anamolous bone is difficult and not definitive. But, since it was the last paper published on the subject, it should be noted without anyone claiming that it has been refuted or something. The presence of early Cenozoic hadrosaurs also in no way, shape, or form has anything to do with creationism or the Bible--it's STILL 64 my old, not 6 thousand!Dinoguy2 14:41, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I fear the whole discussion of this issue is influenced by the false premise that the find of a dinosaur bone after 65 mya somehow falsifies the hypothesis that they went extinct at that date. It doesn't. Finding some reworked remains is precisely what that hypothesis predicts. This again makes the hypothesis that found remains are indeed reworked the most parsimonious, till the moment strong evidence has been represented the remains were first deposited in situ. Like finding an reasonably articulated skeleton. Which has never happened.--MWAK 09:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Post Cretaceous

message: For those who aren't fans (& you should be ashamed! =]), I'll pass on, Lorenzo was a member of the "Bernard Goetz Fan Club".  Trekphiler 08:32, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What the heck? What's DFH & what does it have to do with Dinosaurs? Spawn Man 00:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: More ''DFH''!

message: Dinosaurs are sounds absolutely ridiculous!
I'm willing to accept unconventional ideas, but only if they are true. Is there really a consensus among zoologists that dinosaurs still exist today? If not, this really needs to be changed back to Dinosaurs were, asap. Rearden Metal 22:09, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Birds are a sub-group of dinosaurs (just like sauropods or ceratopsians), so any statement that applies to birds could be "dinosaurs are". We're trying to cut down on the use of "non-avian dinosaurs" apparently, so if you mean "non-avian dinosaurs were...", I think "dinosaurs were..." is appropriate, if the statement doesn't apply to birds. Depends on how broadly you're speaking. Dinoguy2 22:16, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

text: It is, however, used that way among the scientists that work in this field. I think it is not such a bad thing to follow the primary literature on this point. Not doing so is not reflecting the scientific consensus. -- John.Conway 12:04, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Shouldn't an encyclopedia be technically correct first of all?--MWAK 09:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Indeed. The suggestion to replace are with were is perhaps showing both a poor knowledge of English and a poor knowledge of science. The first sentence should imply dinosaurs are not extinct for the simple fact that they aren't. Sadly it doesn't. BTW, Benton isn't authoritative in that he still uses Linnean ranking. His ill-founded critique of cladism shows a regrettable modular obtuseness in an otherwise intelligent paleontologist ;o).--MWAK 09:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Dinosaurs are'' vs. ''Dinosaurs were''

message: As far as I can tell, all the records listed in the intro are fossil records.  Something doesn't have to be mineralized bone to be a fossil; traces of impressions of feathers and organs are still a type of fossil, as are the examples of preserved soft tissue in the citations.  What are the non-fossil records referred to?  If there are some, at least one should be listed.  If there aren't, "non-fossil" should be removed.  --ragesoss 05:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right: a fossil doesn't need to be "fossilised" to be one. However there is of course a non-fossil record: both the DNA and its phenotypic expression of extant dinosaurs (i.e. birds) form a record of their evolution and can be compared to that of extant crocodilians for "phylogenetic bracketing".--MWAK 07:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then those should be mentioned in that sentence, right?--ragesoss 11:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fossil and Non-Fossil records 

message: I'm wondering why eggs are not mentioned among records.
82.58.220.237 12:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The — already overloaded — sentence uses the word "including", probably meaning: "The following list is not exclusive".--MWAK 14:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fossil records 

message: The dagger (†) is used to indicate taxa with no living members.
aren't all taxa other than aves extinct? Also, why is aves listed where it is?
:Good questions! Plausible answers are:
#Indeed and therefore they all have a little dagger in front of them. A little formal but that can't hurt in an encyclopedia. Of course those higher taxa to which birds belong are therefore still extant, such as Theropoda, Tetanurae etc.
#Why, would you rather have it listed where it is not? ;o) The classification is used of Michael Benton, who still uses traditional ranking. As Aves traditionally has the rank of class, Benton keeps it that way although it now has the same position as a superfamily and is a class within class Sauropsida. Utterly incoherent but that's evolutionary systematics for you. If you don't like it, I may welcome you to cladism. The exact location of Aves is still incertain, but by definition somewhere within Maniraptora.--MWAK 14:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  daggers? 

message: I really think that there should be a section in this article explaining about misconceptions of plesionsaurs and pterosaurs being part of the dinosaur family. They are actually just flying and marine reptiles that were also big and lived at the same time. Many people see pterosaurs and think they are "flying dinosaurs". This mistake should be explained in the article.
WordWhiz 22:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There should and there is (well, at least a mention)--MWAK 08:30, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

text: It is.... Spawn Man 00:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Common Misconceptions

message: I require some clarifications in regards to the passage on the average size of a dinosaur.  First, I am interested in acquiring some references for this fact.  Also, I am curious about what exactly is meant about the average size of a dinosaur.  Does the passage claim that one would expect, if one were to extract a large enough sample of dinosaurs, that the average size of the sample would be that of a sheep?  Lastly, if we were to include such statistics as the mean size of dinosaurs, why aren't the standard deviation, the median, and the mode included?  The reason I ask is that I have found such an argument in "Answers in Genesis," in an article about how all the dinosaurs could have fit in Noah's ark, as well as in Gish's book "Creation Scientist Answer Their Critics."  As a result I am sceptical about this entry.  Thank you! Poiuyt098@hotmail.com 05:18, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See: http://dml.cmnh.org/2005Jul/msg00530.html. The mode seems to be well above one ton. The sheep estimate is apparently from Jurassic Park :o). I personally doubt that two specimens of Amphicoelias would have fitted easily in the ark. If I were Noah I would use just the DNA and a decent regenerator ;o)--MWAK 08:30, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!  Although I'm still not convinced this is true, I can now see how it is conceivable.  Anyway, I'll elect this as the place to say I agree with Fedor and Dinoguy that creationism doesn't deserve a mention in this article.  Anyway, I'm not going to change anything with respect to that unless consensus is that it's necessary. Poiuyt098@hotmail.com 21:08, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually got the "size of a sheep" information from a museum tour/workshop thingy. I thought putting down a note on this fact would be both stupid looking & questionable. Spawn Man 00:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the way the average size section is presented now.  A lot more informative!  Good work! Poiuyt098@hotmail.com 18:15, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Size of dinos 

message: I'm just wondering whether it's appropriate to have a statue rather than a fossilized skeleton right at the top of the page, especially when the statue in question looks to be based on some of the older ideas about how a T-Rex would look (Mainly because it's so bulky and heavy looking). Not that it's a bad image to have in the article, but a photo of a skeleton might be more appropriate for the very first image anyone sees. Weebs 11:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it would be more suitable if the caption read "artist representation of a T. Rex"?  I can see how a fossilized skeleton picture might work better, though.  What does everyone else think? Poiuyt098@hotmail.com 21:17, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason we put the t rex model there is because people complained that there shouldn't be a skeleton picture there! I think it should stay there as it is, but I still feel that the "artist's impression..." bit could be debated on. Spawn Man 00:53, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, obviously it is an artist's impression :o). Strangely I find the statue too emaciated. The skull musculature e.g. is much too weak.--MWAK 11:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does the First Picture Fit? 

message: Over a hundred distinct anatomical features are shared by birds and theropod dinosaurs. A recent case in point: "Archaeopteryx, therefore, is closely related to the theropods. This in turn means that theropod dinosaurs are the ancestors of the modern birds that followed Archaeopteryx. The find, according to Mayr, 'not only provides further evidence for the theropod ancestry of birds, but it blurs the distinction between basal [the earliest] birds and basal deinonychosaurs,' their fearsome-clawed ancestors. 'I do think that the question of a theropod ancestry of birds can now be considered settled once and forever,' Mayr said." 
====Feathers====
The first good specimen of a "feathered dinosaur" was the 1861 discovery of the Archaeopteryx in Germany, in the Solnhofen limestone, which is a lagerstätte; one of the rare and remarkable geological formations known for their superbly detailed fossils. Coming just two years after Darwin's seminal The Origin of Species, the evidence of a transitional fossil between reptiles and birds spurred the debates between evolutionary biology and creationism. This early bird is so dinosaur-like that, without a clear impression of feathers in the surrounding rock, the specimens are commonly mistaken for Compsognathus.
Since the 1990s, a number of feathered dinosaurs have been found, providing clear evidence of the close relationship between dinosaurs and birds. Most of these specimens were local to Liaoning province in northeastern China, which was part of an island continent in the Cretaceous. However, the feathers were only preserved by the lagerstätte of the Yixian Formation; it is therefore possible that dinosaurs elsewhere in the world may have been feathered too, even though the feathers have not been preserved.
The feathered dinosaurs discovered so far include Beipiaosaurus, Caudipteryx, Dilong, Microraptor, Protarchaeopteryx, Shuvuuia, Sinornithosaurus, and Sinosauropteryx, and potentially Adasaurus; and dinosaur-like birds like Confuciusornis; all of which come from the same area and formation in northern China. The dromaeosauridae family in particular seems to have been heavily feathered, and at least one dromaeosaurid, Cryptovolans, may have been capable of flight.
====Skeleton====
Because feathers are often associated with birds, feathered dinosaurs are often touted as the missing link between birds and dinosaurs. However, the association of multiple skeletal features also shared by the two groups is the more important link for paleontologists. Furthermore, it is increasingly clear that the relationship between birds, dinosaurs and the evolution of flight is more complex than has been previously realized. For example, while it was once believed that birds simply evolved from dinosaurs and went their separate way, some scientists now believe that some dinosaurs, such as the dromaeosaurs, may have actually evolved from birds, losing the power of flight while keeping the feathers in a manner similar to the Ostrich and other ratites.
Comparisons of bird and dinosaur skeletons, as well as cladistic analysis, strengthens the case for the link, particularly for a branch of theropods called maniraptors. Skeletal similarities include: the neck, pubis, wrists (semi-lunate carpal), arm and pectoral girdle, shoulder blade, clavicle and breast bone.
====Reproduction biology====
A recent discovery in a Tyrannosaurus rex skeleton provided more evidence that dinosaurs and birds evolved from a common ancestor and for the first time allowed palentologists to sex a dinosaur. When laying eggs, female birds have a special type of bone, called a medullary bone, that grows in their limbs, forming a layer inside the hard outer bone. It is rich in calcium and used for making eggshells. The presence of endosteally derived bone tissues lining the interior marrow cavities of portions of the Tyrannosaurus rex specimen's hindlimb elements suggested similar reproductive strategies, and revealed the specimen to be female (Schweitzer et al., 2005).
====Lungs====
Big meat-eating dinosaurs had a complex system of air sacs similar to the setup in today's birds, according to an investigation led by Patrick O'Connor of Ohio University. The lungs of theropod dinosaurs, carnivores that walked on two legs and had birdlike feet, likely pumped air into hollow sacs in their skeletons, as is the case in birds. "What was once formally considered unique to birds was present in some form in the ancestors of birds", O'Connor said. The study, funded in part by the National Science Foundation, is detailed in the July 14 issue of the journal Nature .
====Heart====
Modern computerized tomography (CT) scans of dinosaur chest cavities five years ago found the apparent remnants of complex four-chambered hearts more like mammals and birds .
====Care of young====
The embryo had no teeth, which suggests some parental care was required to feed the young dinosaur, possibly the adult dinosaur regurgitated nutrion into the young dinosaur's mouth. This behaviour is seen in numerous bird species; the parent birds regurgitated food into the hatchling's mouth .
====Gizzard====
Both birds and dinosaurs have used gizzard stones. When found in association with fossils, they are called gastroliths.
====Other====
A recently discovered troodont fossil demonstrates that the animals slept like birds, with their heads tucked under their arms .
:Nobody rational and informed doubts the factual correctness of the dinosaur-bird link. But precisely because the overwhelming evidence is so abundant it has its best place in a separate article. Can't help noting though that even in the text you put our attention to, birds are still not consistently described as simply being dinosaurs or theropods. Birds and dinosaurs do not simply share a common ancestor (all living creatures probably do that): the latter group includes the former.--MWAK 11:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "consistently described" Ha! This is wikipedia. I can't even get people to stop changing stuff inside of a sourced quote. WAS 4.250 13:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's nice to see my words are so carefully monitored (smothered with sarcasm). I have no wish to change the content, just that I do not fully agree with everything.... Spawn Man 02:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The content that Spawn Man "loathed"

message: A recently discovered troodont fossil demonstrates that the animals slept like birds, with their heads tucked under their arms .
:Nobody rational and informed doubts the factual correctness of the dinosaur-bird link. But precisely because the overwhelming evidence is so abundant it has its best place in a separate article. Can't help noting though that even in the text you put our attention to, birds are still not consistently described as simply being dinosaurs or theropods. Birds and dinosaurs do not simply share a common ancestor (all living creatures probably do that): the latter group includes the former.--MWAK 11:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "consistently described" Ha! This is wikipedia. I can't even get people to stop changing stuff inside of a sourced quote. WAS 4.250 13:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's nice to see my words are so carefully monitored (smothered with sarcasm). I have no wish to change the content, just that I do not fully agree with everything.... Spawn Man 02:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other

message: I propose we request comment from the community (RfC) on this issue. It's entirely obvious that NPOV necessitates a mention of the creationist POV here, and a serious violation of NPOV to exclude it utterly. — Matt Crypto 15:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, however, that exact paragraph could be duplicated on the main page for any prehistoric land vertebrate or insect (or plant!). If the admins deem it necessery for the dinosaur page, I nominate Matt Crypto to be bold and place the same paragraph with the same phrrasing on any non-stub page for a group of prehistoric animals, including but not limited to Terror Birds, Ground sloth, Dimetrodon, Multituberculata, and Australopithecus.Dinoguy2 15:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Creationists do not seem to advocate specific views on these prehistoric animals that you mentioned. They do for dinosaurs. Logically, according to their argument, they could, yes, but the fact is that they do not, or at least, in no way the same extent as for dinosaurs. — Matt Crypto 15:43, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If this doesn't make clear to you that we're paying lip service to a publicity stunt,  don't know what will... But that's beside the point, I guess.Dinoguy2 18:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, the way I see it, it's quite natural that creationists argue specifically for their doctrines in the context of dinosaurs — as I'm sure we're all aware, dinosaurs present a popularly-understood and serious scientific challenge to their position. I don't see why creationists defending their doctrine in this way must be seen as some sort of sinister and cynical publicity stunt. — Matt Crypto 18:15, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree that it's a minor POV, but it's not a fringe viewpoint in terms of world thought (it is fringe in terms of science). Something like 47% of people in the US have some sort of creationist view (although it's unclear how many would follow these views on dinosaurs). It's not exclusive to the US, either. I'm arguing that it's sufficiently large a movement to merit a short paragraph in such a lengthy article, particularly if we're mentioning things like Dino-films etc,  as long as we don't mislead the readers into thinking it's accepted as science. I think the paragraph goes out of its way to make that clear. — Matt Crypto 15:43, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I'm on record as being against the pop culture section all togeher... dinosaurs are so prevelent in pop culture that it really warrents a seperate article. IMHO, Dinosaur should be for dinosaurs in science only.Dinoguy2 18:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wikipedia isn't an exclusive science encyclopedia, though. We're interested in all human knowledge, including religious and popular culture aspects. I can understand your objections to creationism if this was a "Dinosaurs in science" article, but I don't think that's a desireable approach. — Matt Crypto 18:15, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Creationism paragraph

message: I have created a stub article based on our discussions here: Religious perspectives on dinosaurs. Please help me to expand this. I will try to do some research over the next few days... We need to try to capture not just Christian creationist views but those of other religious groups with specific understandings of dinosaurs that differ from the interpretation favored by mainstream science. Killdevil 00:48, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religious Perspectives on Dinosaurs