Talk:Rustamid dynasty

message: ˤAbd ar-Rahmān ibn Rustam is mentioned twice. First as Ibadi coming from Basra and second as Tunisian-born.Hakeem.gadi (talk) 19:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it says that he was born in Tunisia, of Persian origin, and educated in Basrah. So I don't see the contradiction there. rcduggan (talk) 18:39, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradiction

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There's been some edit-warring over the map in the infobox, and as  noted neither the previous map or the new map is well-sourced. 
That said, the new map is more concerning and certainly looks like WP:OR: it's not based on any existing published representations of Rustamid territory, but only on a vague description in one source (). There's no indication of what supports the many specific details of the map which, incidentally, show a vastly larger territory than any other map. What do the striped areas mean? Vassals? Temporary occupation? How have all these borders been determined? Based on what? The territorial extent described in the cited source does not look plausible and would need to be verified with more reliable sources given the the lack of any details and the inconsistency with other available sources. The same goes for the sources that have been spammed into the lead in support of the same claim: they are clearly cherry-picked to maximize the purported extent of Rustamid control, some are not very reliable, and some of the sources (like this one) undercut the more unusual claims of the others.  
Additionally, the claims contradict other well-established information. In particular: the Tafilalt (Sijilmasa) was ruled by the Midrarid dynasty during this time, and aside from friendly relations between them there are no sources suggesting they were controlled by the Rustamids at any point and plenty of sources stating that the Rustamids had to contend with them as neighbours. The one source in the lead (a 1883 philologist article) that vaguely claims they "possessed" some tribes the Rif is also insufficient for this kind of claim, given the presence of other states in the area at this time, including the Idrisids at their height in the 9th century, and again the lack of any mention in other sources. Tlemcen was also under Idrisid rule for at least the early period, and even Tripoli itself remained under Aghlabid rule after the Ibadis failed to dislodge them.
Other reliable sources consistently identify central/western Algeria, southern Tunisia, the Jabal Nafusa (in Tripolitania) and parts of the Fezzan as Rustamid territory; there's no mention of their control going as far as Mauritania and Mali or further west, even if Ibadism did spread across the Sahara. Here's a sample of what I could find quickly on the topic:
Text references:
* "Here, ‘Abd al-Raḥmān in 144/ 761 founded a Khārijī principality based on the newly-founded town of Tahert (Tāhart) (near modern Tiaret), and some fifteen years later he was offered the imamate of all the Ibāḍiyya of North Africa. This nucleus in Tahert was linked with Ibāḍī communities in the Aurès, southern Tunisia and the Jabal Nafūsa, and groups as far south as the Fezzān oasis acknowledged the spiritual headship of the Ibāḍī Imāms."
*"The Rustamid (Rustumid, Rostemid) dynasty of Ibadi Kharijite Imam that ruled the central Maghrib as a Muslim theocracy for a century and a half from their capital Tahert in present Algeria until the Ismailite Fatimid Calipahte destroyed it. (...) The exact extent of its dominions is not entirely clear, but it stretched as far east as Jabal Nafusa in Libya.
* "The Kharijite Rustamid state based at Tahert (western Algeria) was also established by a Persian missionary, ʿAbd al-Rahman b. Rustam of the Ibadi tradition. Their area of influence stretched to Jerba, Jabal Nafusa, and the Fazzan."
Published maps of Rustamid territory in reliable sources: 
* Figure 4.6 in this book (page number not provided but hopefully the link will lead you directly to it), whose map is based on map 2 of page 44 of Abun-Nasr's history of the Maghrib.
* Maps 5 and 8 (p. 20, 24) of Sluglett & Currie's atlas, although it shows a smaller territory (perhaps due to the semi-autonomy of the Jebel Nafusa).
Please use one of the maps above, or something like them in a reliable source, as the basis of a map instead. In the meantime, the previously used map on this article, even though unsourced and by the same author, is closer to what reliable sources say. It's not ideal but certainly preferable until a better, properly-sourced map comes along. R Prazeres (talk) 00:26, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Since it's been a while and no sourced maps are forthcoming, I've gone ahead and made a map directly based on one of the sources above (Figure 4.6 in Rushword 2017, "From Arzuges to Rustamids: State Formation and Regional Identity in the Pre-Saharan Zone" in Merrills (ed.) Vandals, Romans and Berbers: New Perspectives on Late Antique North Africa). I've added it to the article but you can find it here. It's crudely drawn but it should do for now instead of the flurry of unsourced maps. R Prazeres (talk) 08:11, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  New map and dubious territorial claims