Talk:Ilya Ivanov

message: I removed all references to alleged experiments in accordance with Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. It says that 
:Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable or credible sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false. As counter-intuitive as it may seem, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. For that reason, it is vital that editors rely on good sources.
According to researchers currently working in Sukhumi (where alleged experiments took place), this story is not true:
http://www.newsru.com/russia/20dec2005/stalin.html
Paranoid 01:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alleged experiments 

message: This is probably the Belgian cryptozoologist Bernard Heuvelmans. --Cam 01:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Belgian zoologist Adelmans" 

message: I found this paper on Ivanov and his human-ape hybridization experiments. It draws on Ivanov's diaries and other personal papers and on Soviet archives, and appears to bear out the bulk of the information now in the Wikipedia article, except for the pre-1910 stuff. Note that although it shows that Ivanov inseminated three chimpanzees with human sperm in French Guinea (none of which became pregnant), the journal article presents no evidence that he ever inseminated human females with ape sperm, either in Guinea or in the Soviet Union, although he attempted to organize such experiments in both places. The planned experiments in Sukhumi apparently did not actually occur. --Cam 05:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed it up a bit based on the journal article, will clean up mpre tomorrow. --Cam 06:57, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Seemingly reliable paper on Ivanov's plans for human-ape hybridization

message: Some dates in this Wiki article don't seem to fit with this article from the Scotsman:
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=2434192005
That Stalin and the Politburo according to The Scotsman in 1926 asked Ilya to create a race of human/ape hybrids, but Wiki says Ilya only in 1929 managed to acquire some backing, and supposedly after some trouble, from officials. Rune X2 10:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In 1925-26 he got official backing for experiments at Kindia and Conakry. --Cam 15:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stalin 

message: The article says that he had a rat/mouse hybrid. I'm pretty sure that no such thing is possible, especially considering technology available at the time. Many of the other hybrids may be suspect as well. Rats and mice are not as similar as one would imagine: http://www.ratbehavior.org/RatMouseHybrid.htm  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.242.221 (talk) 19:24, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems much more likely than hybridizing either with a guinea pig, let alone a guinea pig and a rabbit (!).  Cow/antelope seems more than a bit fishy as well, particularly since it doesn't even say what species of antelope, a term that encompasses dozens of them (arguably including the cow itself, but that's neither here nor there).  One of the sources is offline, and for the other I'm getting a wall of mojibake.  I say we cut the whole claim, maybe looking into the zedonk and zubron, but his name's not mentioned in the article on either.  Twin Bird (talk) 13:03, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm ok with removing the claim. The original sources were on the order of popular-magazine articles.--Cam (talk) 14:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rat-mouse hybrid? 

message: I found no evidence what so ever on mice/rats, mice/guinea pig or rabbit/guinea pig hybrid other than on creationist websites. Especially the latter bumps me, because guinea pigs are rhodents while rabbits are lagomorphs. Tiger and Lion happen to be the genus so they can be cross bread, but guinea pigs and rabbits are different "families". I think this is another sneaky attempt of the creation "scientists" to subtly change minute facts in actual scientist's paper to underline their "results" (believes). In conclusion the argument that apes and men could not be cross bread but even guinea pigs and rabbits could seemingly underlines how far we are from apes. Which to me is very funny again because if the lagomorph/rhodent cross breed was true, it would be further evidence for evolution because how do you explain that some species are more closely related to others without speciation?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.75.38.2 (talk) 09:11, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I found many web sites mentioning hybrids. Only one of those was a creationist web site ( http://creation.com/ivanovs-ape-human-hybrid-project-why ). They don't claim that he crossed rabbits and guinea pigs, but that he experiment with variations of them. I think yours is another sneaky attempt to lash out on critiques of Evolution and reading doesn't seem to be your strong point. Also, even creation scientist proclaim that speciation does occur, usually within genus or taxon contexts and the suggested reason is loss of genetic information. That would mean they are related, but that doesn't mean that others are "less closely" related, since they may not be related at all. --41.151.77.35 (talk) 10:22, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Hybrids 

message: The section on the ape experiments has many notes saying dubious and citation needed, and there are comments here questioning that they ever happened. New Scientist ran a story on this a few years back, so there is at least one reliable source that I know of. However, some of the facts are different. I don't really have the time or inclination to rewrite the section with references, but here's a link to the article if anyone's interested in doing this:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19926701.000-blasts-from-the-past-the-soviet-apeman-scandal.html?full=true
I'm also going to post this to the talk page for the Humanzee article, which has more or less the same information with the same dubious/citation needed notes...
Reidlophile (talk) 22:02, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reputable source for the ape experiments