Talk:Sarah Lawrence College

message: American University, in Washington DC, also has a program in Havana. Sarah Lawrence is not the only one. Check it out: http://www.auabroad.american.edu/enclave/cuba.cfm
Slugokramer 01:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cuba Program

message: We should probably move the SLC in Pop Culture section to its own page.
Didn't we fight this battle back in 2005? Who the hell moved the pop culture mess back ONTO the page in the first place?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.173.230.239 (talk) 16:33, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Pop Culture

message: I would like to really push this article into a better state of completion.  Following are some suggestions:
*Create a separate page for the now-too-long alumni list.
*Expand the History section to be more balanced, thorough, etc.  Perhaps move it to a second page as well.
*Above all, illustrate the article with photographs, etc.  Again, I am an idiot when it comes to the copyright rules on Wikipedia, so any help would be appreciated.  (Hilighter555 13:43, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposition for Major Revisions

message: I challenge the statement, "Sarah Lawrence was founded in 1926 as a women's college and became a coeducational institution in 1968."  President Howard Taylor was a friend of my father and we spent a weekend at his home.  Later he called me and asked if I could recommend a man to be the first male to attend Sarah Lawrence.  I don't recall the eact date, but I think it was around 1951.  It was obviously before 1959.
David Hogben, PhD 8-17-2009.  drdavidh@verizon.net, 301-740-2356  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.108.0.117 (talk) 17:18, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think these are all good ideas. Also, I've been thinking about moving the list of Sarah Lawrence buildings to another page and replacing it on the main page with a more general discussion of the architecture on campus. As with the alumni, I think this list takes up too much space right now. --djrobgordon 16:09, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  S.L. coeducational date 

message: How is Titsworth "appropriately" an all-girls dorm. Is that a stupid crack about the name. I'm changing it, but let me know if you have a reason why I shouldn't. --djrobgordon 01:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Titsworth 

message: This article really needs pictures.  Courier new 02:31, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe I'll bring my camera with me to campus some day this week. I'm no professional photographer, but it's better than nothing. --djrobgordon 05:07, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pics 

message: Is it possible that you could get some pictures off of the internet?  This article looks really bare.  Courier new 04:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not necessary to ask more than once in two days. --djrobgordon 05:41, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible? 

message: Most of this section of the article is made up of incomplete sentences. J. Van Meter 23:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would, Hilighter555, but I haven't seen all the films nor read all the books that are listed in the section. Perhaps someone that is more familiar with all the citations can have a go at it. J. Van Meter 17:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sarah Lawrence in popular culture

message: Does anyone know why the article says (in two places) that Sarah Lawrence is at least partially in Bronxville, when that statement is false?
I recognize that Sarah Lawrence has a Bronxville mailing address, but that's not the same as actually being located there. (They could get their mail on the moon, they'd still be in Yonkers.) The strange thing is that Sarah Lawrence certainly knows where it's located -- their website suggests, more than once, that students with problems should call the Yonkers police, which is exactly what the Bronxville police would tell them if they called there instead. And yet so many people associated with the school continue to insist that it's located in Bronxville, either completely (which is false) or in part (which is just as false).
Although people who get involved in this issue seldom resort to facts, I'm going to do just that. First, take a look at the campus map from the Sarah Lawrence website, which I found at http://www.slc.edu/data/386/link/1299/SLC_CampusMapWeb.pdf. Then, take a look at the map viewer on the website of the Westchester County Geographic Information Systems (Yonkers and Bronxville are both in Westchester County) at http://giswww.westchestergov.com/westchester/emap/viewer.htm and navigate to the area under discussion. (To save time, you can look at http://www.WebFeats.com/SarahLawrence-Yonkers.gif, where I've copied the relevant area of the map.) Even a cursory comparison of the maps reveals that the entire campus is within the city limits of Yonkers (the area in gray), and that not one square inch of the campus crosses the Bronx River into Bronxville (one of the areas in white).
It's obvious to me that the article should be corrected, but I won't do that until I hear what others have to say. HMishkoff 21:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bronxville? 

message: I've started to do a little research -- not the kind that's against Wikipedia's policy, but rather research into published sources (which is the very basis of Wikipedia).
So far, without exception, every published source I've found that discusses whether SLC is physically located in Bronxville or in Yonkers agrees that it's in Yonkers. For example, here's a letter to the editor of the NYT from someone that I'd like to think is a knowledgeable source:
----------
In response to The Lure of a Bronxville Address, we want to make it clear that Sarah Lawrence College is proud to be located in Yonkers and we are excited about Mayor John D. Spencer's economic development programs. Our postal address may be Bronxville, but we feel very much a part of Yonkers. In fact, we emphasize to our prospective students that we straddle two different localities: the suburban village of Bronxville and the city of Yonkers, which is rich in its cultural and racial diversity. 
MICHELE TOLELA MYERS
President
Sarah Lawrence College Yonkers 
----------
Although Ms. Myers muddies the water with her "straddling" comment (which appears to be metaphoric, rather than literal), you'll notice that she clearly states that SLC is "located in Yonkers" (that's a direct quote), and she signs the letter "Sarah Lawrence College Yonkers" (another direct quote). I have located several other NYT articles that also state definitively that SLC is physically located in Yonkers but has a Bronxville mailing address, and I imagine that further research will uncover more evidence of the obvious fact that SLC is in Yonkers.
Since I recognize that no preponderance of facts will convince you, why don't you call SLC and ask them? If you can pin them down past the silly "straddle" construction that they like to use, I'll bet they'll finally admit to you that, despite their historical and traditional ties to Bronxville (yada yada yada), the SLC campus is physically located 100% within the boundaries of the city of Yonkers. I recognize that, if you make this call, it will constitute "original research" and will not be usable as a source for the article, but maybe it will convince you that you are mistaken, and will allow us to work together to revise the article so that it both acknowledges historical SLC's ties to Bronxville and yet also acknowledges what appears to be the indisputable fact that SLC is located in Yonkers. HMishkoff 22:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Research 

message: I'm going to stop participating in this unproductive back-and-forth. (I mean that. If someone else want to have the last word, go ahead, I won't respond.) Instead, I'm going to use this as a learning opportunity. I know next to nothing about Wikipedia, other than the fact that it's a fantastic resource. And since it's also an important resource, I need to learn more about how to edit articles, as opposed to just reading them (which has largely defined my interaction with Wikipedia to this point).
For example: What do you do when you know that an article is inaccurate but you run into someone who defends the inaccuracy and refuses to let you change it? The immediate response is that I have to find sources to defend the revision. However, in this case, the sources that I have discovered are New York Times articles that I had to pay to retrieve. They're clearly valid and definitive sources, but I can't reproduce them without violating NYT's copyright -- and I can't link to them, because anyone trying to follow those links would have to pay to get access to the articles. It's a real dilemma -- and I assume it's only one of myriad problems that Wikipedia editors run into every day.
I'm not asking anyone to help me solve the problem of the pricey sources. Instead, I'm going to use this issue as motivation to learn more about how Wikipedia works. Once I feel like I know what I'm doing, the first thing I'll do is come back here and correct the blatant falsehoods in the SLC article. In terms of ascertaining how much I've learned, I figure that'll be my final exam... :) 
(BTW, I have to say that one result of my research is that I've become very disappointed in SLC. As an institution of higher learning, you'd think that they'd be interested in promoting the truth. But every time they are forced to admit that they're in Yonkers, they always tack on some weasel-worded phrase that allows people who desperately want to believe that SLC is in Bronxville to continue to do so. Then they act like they're exasperated by the whole issue -- while the fact is that they're clearly and deliberately perpetuating the confusion. It's shameful behavior on the part of SLC.) HMishkoff 15:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources, etc. 

message: I've corrected the article so that it accurately reflects SLC's location in Yonkers. The language I've used is nearly an exact quotation from an official SLC document. In the interest of verifiability, I've provided a reference link to that source and to a similar statement on the official Village of Bronxville website. Since I've provided definitive references from both SLC and Bronxville that unequivocally state that SLC is in Yonkers, I'm hopeful that I've put this issue to rest. HMishkoff 21:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Location Correction 

message: A list of quotations about a subject doesn't really belong on Wikipedia (otherwise there wouldn't be WikiQuote). It does't help that all the quotes are very pro-Sarah Lawrence College... it kinda sounds like they're lifted from the college's promotional material.  If the quotes can't be worked into the article itself, I propose that the section be removed. ~ Danelo 18:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Doing so now. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry 14:39, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing "Quotations" section 

message: Although I'm certainly enjoying correcting SLC's location every time you vandalize it, can I ask you why it's so important to you continually try to relocate the campus to Bronxville? As you know (if you've checked out the references you keep deleting), both SLC and the official Bronxville website acknowledge that the campus is in Yonkers. Anything you want to talk about? HMishkoff (talk) 17:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See the comment I left on Jvolkblum's page.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 18:25, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question for Jvolkblum  

message: There are major NPOV and sourcing problems with opening paragraph in this version of the article.  I'm going to try to tone down some of the quasi-promotional language, and I will request additional sources.  If you have any thoughts on how this paragraph can be improved, please discuss here.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 18:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems with the lead paragraph

message: Im sorry you are having a personal issue with this. You are clearly committing 'vandalism' by repeatedly deleting the corrections I have made. yet you were first to accuse me of such wrongdoing? 
The fact that Sarah Lawrence is located in Yonkers versus Bronxville has no relevance or significance to the introduction. There is no argument over this anywhere on the page. Nor does the college make any issue over its location.  Your reference is relevant/ applicable on the Bronxville town webpage, or in specific geographical or demographic contexts. The differentiation between the 'mailing address' location (municipality) & the 'physical/geographical' location (municipality) can be noted and discussed (if desired) in following sections, ie: Sarah Lawrence Campus.  I am correcting this by including the schools address, Bronxville, New York  10708.
:First: Please sign your postings so I'll know for certain who I'm talking to. Thanks!
:I don't have a personal issue with this, just a factual one. The SLC campus is located entirely within the boundaries of Yonkers, which is just another way of saying that SLC is in Yonkers. I've provided references from both SLC and Bronxville, so I assume that you'll agree that the physical location of SLC is not in dispute. (If you want to settle the issue in your own mind, look at a map.) That being the case, I don't understand why anyone would have a problem noting SLC's location in a Wikipedia article. The location of any physical entity is relevant and significant (an essential characteristic, in fact), there are thousands of Wikipedia articles (about companies, schools, etc.) that mention, early on, the geo-political entity in which the subject of the article is located. Why is so important to you that SLC's location in Yonkers be hidden or buried? I don't get it.
:The paragraph that I crafted about the "Bronxville campus" is already a compromise, it succinctly sums up the situation without being confrontational (and if you'll read some of the discussion about the issue, you'll know that it can get heated). The language is nearly an exact quote from an official SLC document. I cannot understand why anyone would have any problem with it -- but since you seem to, I'm hoping that you can explain it to me. HMishkoff (talk) 17:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: '''Reply to HMishkoff  re: applicable/relevant data'''

message: RESPONSE: 
The College has an address of '1 Mead Way, Bronxville, New York, 10708', so for all intents and purposes, and from a practical standpoint, the location of the college is Bronxville. If one is interested in researching the college, applying to the school, or contacting the school with a request for information, the accurate location and address is essential. Wouldn't you agree? The underlying issue of location as it relates to geographical accuracy is indeed important in relevant discussions, but is not of primary informational relevance to this page discussing the school. As Wikipedia tries to spell out in its guidelines for 'opening' paragraphs, a concise description is key to creating an A+ article. 
Your insistance on pointing out this location distinction is confusing. The functioning address/location of the school is only hidden/buried by your argument. Apparently it is of some deeper, personal importance to you? It is of personal importantance to me that opinion based data not be confused with factual data. I find it to be of even greater importance to ensure, whenever possible, the accurate use & application of information. Information can be manipulated and facts can be included, ommitted or combined to gain more opinion-based results. That shouldnt happen and thats where this arises as an issue for me.
  
The debate over town/village boundaries is commonplace, especially in Westchester County. Bronxville has several surrounding cities (Yonkers, Mount Vernon)that are served to some degree by the Bronxville 10708 zip-code yet are not in fact part of the Village of Bronxville. Many residents of Bronxville find particular issue in sharing their 'elite' mailing address with sections of the more diverses, less affluent and less desirable cities next door. As a result, great effort is made by many to ensure the distinction is made whenever possible so that the 'desired' image of the town remains intact. 
The boundaries of a place, as well as the meaning of those boundaries, are essentially social constructions which people/institutions name and define in anticipation of specific consequences. The neighboring areas of Mount Vernon and Yonkers that share same zip-code essentially 'cheapen' the village with the inclusion of assumed lower-income properties. Both municipalities have average markedly lower property values and income levels when compared to Bronxville and the rest of Westchester County. These averages are not effected by the zip-code 'overlap', nor are any other demographic statistics or measurements. The only true effect is on the public opionion of those who are exposed to the information. Realtors often advertise a property as located within a certain area (such as Bronxville) when it is actually just outside. Residents also may strive to manipulate boundaries in order to improve their standing in the larger social world, laying claim to participating in the daily round of activities corresponding to a given community (ie. Bronxville). These are all relevant topics when discussing the actual monetary value of a given property, the municipal services covering a property or more abstract issues such as addressing the importance or relevance of 'place' in society etc. 
The campus of Sarah Lawrence is located in a desirable residential area of large, expensive homes and high household incomes. The Lawrence Park West section of Yonkers is as desirable a neighborhood as Lawrence Park in Bronxville, and often considered to be more aethetically appealing. In this instance there is no competition to bump up the status or affluence of the area by attaching to neighboring Bronxville. The two exist independently. The presence of Sarah Lawrence is, if anything, a positive to both communities . . .  serving as a 'buffer zone' between Yonkers and Bronxville as well as serving to preserve the wooded, residential character of the area. The bulk of the campus consists of large, period homes that have been adapted to meet the needs of the college. The school itself is one of the most, if not the most, expensive private colleges in the country and has a history and legacy of prestige in social, economic and intellectual circles. Most students are from affluent families, paying full tuition to attend the school. Because of the large size of the City of Yonkers, the Village of Bronxville takes-on some of the postal burden by serving some of its outlying areas. Therefore the ultimate reason that there is an overlap of the 10708 zip-code is for practical reasons. 
I happen to live in the Lawrence Park section of Bronxville and find it to be a pleasant community overall. I have a large home and am very happy with the high real estate values that the village commands. Regardless, I do take issue with regards to the racial exclusivity of the village, and all the underlying efforts made to maintain the (desired) 'us' vs. (undesired) 'them' image.  I trust my observations and ideas on this subject bc of my professional experience. I run my own realty firm in Manhattan, Im a sociology professor at NYU, and I work for a NYC based think tank.
JVolkBlum
:I understand that SLC has chosen to use Bronxville as their mailing address. (This is a choice, BTW, the mail would be delivered just as well if they used a mailing address of Yonkers with the same zip code.) But there is no dispute that the entire SLC campus is physically located in Yonkers. It doesn't even adjoin any other community -- when you're on the SLC campus, you're in Yonkers, and when you leave the campus in any direction, you're still in Yonkers. In other words, SLC is in Yonkers.
:I also understand that SLC has long historical and traditional ties to Bronxville. But that doesn't mean that it's in Bronxville. It's in Yonkers. You say that there is some debate over town and village boundaries in the area. I don't believe that to be the case. Can you cite any references for this? Everything I've read leads me to believe that the town and village boundaries in that area are quite well defined.
:You also say that "The boundaries of a place, as well as the meaning of those boundaries, are essentially social constructions." To this I take emphatic exception. While there may be places where this is true, it is certainly not the case in the area around SLC. Yonkers and Bronxville have precise legal boundaries. You can get maps from the local governments that define those boundaries, and I'll bet that they don't overlap. SLC is located entirely within the legal boundaries of Yonkers. This is not my opinion. This is a very simple fact.
:I think I would be within my rights to point out in the article that many people believe that SLC chooses to use a Bronxville mailing address for its snob appeal. This would not be POV, I could provide many sources, including several New York Times articles (which you can easily find in their archives). However, I have refrained from doing so, not wishing to reflect badly on SLC. The construction that I've used instead (and which I'm about to restore, as soon as I post this), which is nearly a direct quote from an official SLC document, confirms SLC's location, but also explains its association with Bronxville. That construction was carefully crafted after a heated discussion (above) a little more than a year ago -- it's accurate, succinct, non-confrontational, and pleasantly innocuous. Unless you can come up with something better that's still accurate, I think you should leave it alone. HMishkoff (talk) 02:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: '''Reply to HMishkoff  re: applicable/relevant data'''

message: Im accused of some sortof abuse/wrongdoing because of edits I have made that I believe to be correct & tht are in agreement with the comments and changes of other members. As a result I recieved the following:
Sockpuppetry and blanking page discussion
You appear to making exactly the same edits to Sarah Lawrence related articles that User:Jvolkblum was making. Please don't do this. I'm going to assume that are your unfamiliar with our WP:SOCK policy, but I suggest you observe it. Also, please don't blank discussion on article talk pages as you did here[1].--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 00:53, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, the reference to Bronxville is an opinion. However, it is an opinion stated in an official SLC document, and is sourced as such. I could just as easily have said that SLC uses a Bronxville mailing address for its snob appeal, and I could have sourced that with several NY Times articles, but I did not. I could have also omitted any reference to Bronxville whatsoever because SLC is, after all, not in Bronxville -- but I didn't do that either. I think that the approach I took is fair, balanced, accurate, and reflects well on SLC. Now, back to your comment... HMishkoff (talk) 02:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  who is wrong here? 

message: HMishkoffs most recent edit has eliminated unnecessary information, thus improving the opening intro to the page. 
It was good to see that user feedback was recognized as an integral part of the edit-process. That was my primary concern.
( I do think that the information removed from here would well suited under the 'campus' section of the page.)
POSTED BY USER: The5bricks  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.173.132 (talk) 20:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  finally a  compromise!  

message: ~ the address should be included in the article for the mere fact that it is relevant information. The 'location' of the school can and should be noted but it doesnt take precedence over the address ( nor does the address take precedence over the geographical location of the school ).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.201.103.138 (talk) 20:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: First, I think it's strange that you put 'location' in quotes in the above comment, as if 'location' were some kind of concept subject to interpretation. The 'location' of the school is Yonkers -- that's not my opinion, it's a fact, and it's supported by citations (which I restored after you removed them (not for the first time)). I don't have any problem with SLC's mailing address also being mentioned in the article (and I don't understand what you mean by "precedence," they're independent and unrelated facts), and I left it in after some rearrangement for clarity and accuracy. (Having said that, I have no idea if Wikipedia has any policy concerning mailing addresses, so someone else might remove it.) HMishkoff (talk) 20:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Address 

message: A box on the article page says:
"The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (November 2009)"
This is plainly false, there are no disputes whatsoever in progress on this page, involving neutrality or anything else. Note that I'm not addressing the issue of whether the article is neutral, I'm addressing the misrepresentation that the neutrality of the article is being disputed on the talk page. A quick scan of this page reveals only two small notes posted with the last year, neither of which discusses the subject of neutrality.
The box says not to remove it until the dispute is resolved, but since there is no dispute to be resolved, I think the box should be removed. I have no idea if there's an official Wikipedia procedure for removing unremovable boxes, but if there are no objections, I'll delete the box. HMishkoff (talk) 02:53, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality? 

message: I removed the design pattern wikilink, as "Tudor", or any other architectural style, is not a design pattern.
A design pattern is a solution to a problem in a context.  "Light from two sides" is an example of a design pattern in
Architecture.  These patterns were initially documented by Chris Alexander.  
Tudor, Colonial, and Greek Revival are examples of architectural styles.
rhyre (talk) 18:52, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Campus architecture 

message: The list of faculty under "notable people" seems somewhat random. What makes the faculty listed particularly notable? In the interest of full disclosure, I am a current faculty member at Sarah Lawrence, so I'm certainly not going to suggest who does and does not belong on such a list. But I do think there needs to be some reasonable criteria. In addition, the discussion of former faculty is a bit odd: Joseph Campbell wasn't just "offered" a position on the faculty--he taught there for 38 years! SarahLawrence Scott (talk) 01:28, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable Faculty--Please Fix! 

message: Because it's been a contentious issue, I thought I should mention that I changed SLC's address to "Bronxville/Yonkers" because that's what it says at the bottom of their home page (to which I provided a reference). I looked through the archives, it appears that SLC began to use that construction sometime in February 2011, but I didn't notice it until earlier today. HMishkoff (talk) 02:26, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bronxville/Yonkers 

message: A big scandal is in the news, now that the guy named in this article  has been arrested and charged with federal crimes. AnonMoos (talk) 13:03, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure why the sex scandal is almost the lead article at the top of the page, before the college's significant academic history.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.76.33.10 (talk) 13:38, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Because it's part of the History, and that section belongs where it is. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:09, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  2019-2020 Scandal 

message: What can be done to rewrite this page to be less "like an advertisement"?  I have to say I'm not sure I really understand what's more ad-like about this page compared to other college articles, but let's try to fix whatever is wrong to remove the tag.
To begin,the entire 2.2 International Programs section should be delete! It's marketing copy.  Can be redu
ced to one sentence (locations) and added somewhere else. 
Lmlmss44 (talk) 20:26, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  promotional

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :Sarah Lawrence College: Campus. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 October 11#Sarah Lawrence College: Campus until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  SWinxy (talk) 20:18, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Sarah Lawrence College: Campus" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]