Talk:Priory of Sion/Archive 2

message: (Copied by →Raul654 from a message on the mailing list.)
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Dear Sir,
Your definition for  "Priory of Sion" in
Wikepedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priory_of_Sion
is a mish-mash of romantic twaddle.
I keep trying to change the definition by creating a
more realistic account but my version keeps getting
deleted. Furthermore, the link to our website:
http://www.priory-of-sion.com
is part of the useless romantic definition
I do not want that article to use a Link to our
website because we do not want to be associated with
that particular "definition" - it is pure nonsense.
I have used a partly translated chapter from a book by
Pierre Jarnac as the main part of my definition - no
copyright has been violated because Jarnac and myself
interchange each other's material - he uses my
material freely in his books.
I enclose the definition on the Priory of Sion that is
a reasonable definition below this message - Is there
any possibility that you can make this version stick
without it being constantly deleted?
Thank you very much.
Most Sincerely Yours,
Paul Smith
Pierre Jarnac, Les Archives de Rennes-le-Chateau
pp.567-575 (1987) 
Historical Note on the Priory of Sion 
For the obviously capable reader who has an uncanny
ability to transform a tiny French village of 70
inhabitants into the secret society capital of France,
then the name "Priory of Sion", itself, appears to be
a mysterious and untouchable entity. After the name of
this organisation appears on the scene, one Pierre
Plantard swiftly follows and with him a whole secret
society seemingly hidden away for centuries
re-emerges. 
In reality, the name "Priory of Sion", given almost 40
years ago by Pierre Plantard to an organisation
without any financial goals, is hardly original. Not
only is the name "de Sion" found close to where
Plantard lived, hence the mountain in Haute-Savoie
called, "Mont Sion" on the route to Annecy-Geneva,
this name also goes back to a religious community at
the time of the Crusades, whose demise came after
several centuries on the outskirts of Orleans. 
In 1967, those for whom this confusion was to be most
profitable, bestowed upon themselves the legacy of
this ancient order, one that was far from their own. A
book called the LIVRE DES CONSTITUTIONS DU PRIEURE DE
SION, allegedly published in 1954 in Geneva and which
to everyone's great chagrin has never been seen (it
has been established by Pierre Jarnac that this book
never existed), claimed a link with the original
religious community called "Sion". The only trace of
this Phantom Book is to be found in - guess where? -
the Bibliotheque Nationale in one of those mysterious
pamphlets that were deposited in the 1960s under the
name "Dossiers Secrets". 
Where a historical connection does emerge is that a
"Priory of Sion" was recorded as having existed. Only
its real name was the "Abbey of Notre Dame of Mount
Sion", or "of the Mount of Sion". Godefroi de
Bouillon, in 1099, founded the Abbey of Notre-Dame of
Mount Sion in Jerusalem; it was a religious community
comprised of monks. Situated at Saint-Jean of Acre it
subsisted until 1187, however, in 1291, with the
Muslims reclaiming Acre from the Crusades, the monks,
having lost their possessions in the Holy Land, fled.
The last of the monks from this order went to Sicily
on the invitation of Count Roger and his wife, the
Princess Adelasie. 
In France other monks of this community, who were
living close to Orleans, had previously been brought
back by Louis VII in 1149 when he returned from the
Crusades. They started a priory of Saint-Samson of
Orleans. They were given a donation and confirmed by
Pope Adrian in 1158. By 1281, this community was
already in decline as there are records that show that
only two members were in their choir, then in 1289
there was only one member. At this point in time the
abbey was on the verge of extinction, but then its
other members from Sicily came over to find refuge
after years of persecution. This last community, for
whom Henri IV offered to build an abbey, died out in
the early part of the 17th century for various reasons
such as lack of recruitment, ageing monks, no money,
etc. 
E.G. Rey, an archivist from Paris, living in Orleans
during the 1880s became interested in the Abbey of
Notre-Dame du Mont Sion. He found out that the
archives of the Priory of Saint-Samson, repatriated
from Sicily in the 14th century, were kept in the
department of the Loiret, where they had been placed
during the Revolution. Therein he discovered a Charter
of the Acts for the Priory of Saint-Samson of Orleans.
In particular, in the Act by Pope Alexander III there
is confirmation that the Monks of Mount Sion are the
owners of the Priory of Saint-Samson of Orleans. Rey
was also able to compile a list of all the Abbots of
Notre-Dame de Sion. 
The only outstanding traits of this religious
community are that they had an illustrious founder,
Godefroi de Bouillon, and a religiously inspired name.
Otherwise they were an Order without much history and
void of prestige. Because of their relative obscurity
they were probably chosen by Plantard and Co as
perfect fodder for their bogus historical claims. 
Note from Paul Smith: 
In 1989, following a period of retirement from 1984,
Pierre Plantard revived his bogus Priory of Sion with
a new Pedigree and Mythological History - the
"Dossiers Secrets" version of the Priory of Sion was
rejected as a fraud with it being written under the
influence of LSD in 1967 by Philippe Toscan du
Plantier - the latest 1989 version of the Priory of
Sion had nothing to do with either the Crusades or the
Templars but had rather been founded in 1681 in
Rennes-le-Chateau. 
Pierre Plantard also concocted a new and different
List of Grand Masters of the Priory of Sion that was
to prove his downfall - he claimed that Roger Patrice
Pelat had been a Grand Master. When the French
Magistrate Thierry Jean-Pierre investigated the
financial scandal involving Pelat he ordered the
search of Plantard's house in 1993 that yielded a
hoard of documents claiming that Plantard was the
"true King of France" - detaining Plantard for a
subsequent 48-hour interrogation Thierry Jean-Pierre
forced a confession from Plantard that the claim was
made up. Plantard was let-off with a warning - and he
was never to revive his Priory of Sion activities
again. 
Plantard lived in hiding between 1993 and his death in
2000. This was not the first time that Plantard was in
trouble with the French Legal System - Plantard had
served time in prison previously during the 1940s and
1950s. 
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:Reply to user. I am not interested in this topic and thus I am not interested in a debate over the appropriate tone of the article. However, the style of your edits was inappropriate. Replacing the article completely is, in most cases, not an appropriate way to edit it, especially with text that is strongly POV, as yours is. Your subseqent resort to outright vandalism in the article (like this ) will lead to immediate blocking if you do that again.
:Furthermore, the copyright information you specified above regarding the book is grossly insufficient. To include such material would require written permission from the author for the material to be released under the GFDL. 
:But in any case, replacing the article wholesale is not a good maneuver and will be likely be reverted repeatedly by other edits. If you feel the article needs editing, by all means do so, but please respect the contribution and POV of others and edit the existing article, rather than replacing it. Even if your text were to become the article, you should realize that other edits would change it, likely restoring the very interpretation you wanted to purge. In short, if you want to make a lasting contribution to Wikipedia, please learn to work with other editors instead of riding roughshod over existing articles. -- Decumanus | Talk 18:17, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul, a link to your site was added to this article to serve as the best source for anti-Priory of Sion information. Although you may not have noticed, this article is skeptical about the Priory of Sion but in a subtle manner in order for neutrality to be presevered. However, I've added a few comments that I hope will satisfy you. Loremaster 22:09, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: There is no such evidence beyond the speculation contained in this excerpt from Holy Blood, Holy Grail. The Priory of Sion is largely known to the public through the claims made by Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln in their book so it is therefore logical for the article to mention them. Loremaster 22:09, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Your definition for  "Priory of Sion"

message: None of those who have written for Wikipedia on the Priory of Sion really know what they are writing about - none of them have consulted the Priory Documents, none of them know about the activities of Pierre Plantard between 1937-1993, none of them know about the history about the actual story itself in France - showing how various French authors over the years have used this subject matter in that country until its final and ultimate demise during the mid-1980s. When Plantard tried to make a PoS comeback in France 1988 with a revised and modified version of his myth he was already a forgotten man and considered a joke of the past there, without a single author bothering to promote his latest concoctions. The latest attempt to revive this myth in France by Gino Sandri has been universally ignored there - where Gino Sandri is devoid of any credibility whatsoever. Don't take my word for it. Don't do that. Go to France and find out for yourselves first hand.
Paul Smith
:Mr Smith, I have placed your comments at the bottom of the page, which is where new comments should be. I must admit I find your action and approach to this issue to be bizarre. Why do you have to be so dismissive and confrontational? All of the articles on Priory of Sion topics very clearly present the view that the P of S was a hoax concocted by Plantard, and yet from the above remarks of yours one would think they said the opposite. Yes, the articles do not aggressively insist on Plantard's guilt, they attempt to maintain a neutral point of view while still clearly indicating what the dominant viewpoint is. That's reasonable don't you think? Your approach, instead of to assist and improve, has in the past been to vandalise the articles. Paul B 10:40, 5 June, 2005 (UTC)
THERE IS STILL A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF UTTER BOLONEY IN THE ARTICLE - THE THEORIES OF BAIGENT, LINCOLN AND LEIGH - WHERE THEY SUPERIMPOSED THEIR OWN NEW TESTAMENT OBSESSIONS OVER THE PLANTARD MYTHS - IS A DISTRACTION AND SHOULD NOT BE INCLUDED.
AS FOR ME BEING "DISMISSIVE" READ THE LATEST BOOKS ON PLANTARD AND THE PRIORY OF SION THAT HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED IN FRANCE. THEY ARE A BREATH OF FRESH AIR COMPARED TO THE CESSPIT OF NONSENSE THAT YOU HAVE TO OFFER ON THIS SUBJECT MATTER ON WIKIPEDIA.
YOU CANNOT EVEN REPRODUCE THE CORRECT LIST OF GRAND MASTERS FROM THE DOSSIERS SECRETS (THAT PLANTARD PILLAGED FROM A LIST DEVISED BY FRENCH AMORC AND COPIED INTO THE PRIORY DOCUMENTS).
Paul Smith
Yes, the "baloney" has to be in the article so that readers can understand why the Priory of Sion has become famous, what the arguments of the people who made it so were – and what the arguments against their claims are. If you don't understand that you don't understand what a neutral point of view is. If the list of grand masters is incorrect, why don't you correct it instead of spewing abuse? Paul B 11:15, 3 August, 2005 (UTC)
You keep deleting corrections provided by me to the article, and then you progress to calling me a "Vandal" - just because you demand to present the Holy Blood and Holy Grail version of the Priory of Sion at the expense of the true factual history of the subject matter. For example, Godfrey de Bouillon never founded an "Order of Sion" during the first crusade in Jerusalem - the actual proper name of the Order was the Abbey de Notre Dame de Mont Sion and this comes from French Scholarly articles of the 19th century - are you going to keep deleting this correction as well?
Pierre Plantard was the main protagonist to this subject-matter. And Plantard rejected the treatment given to his creation by the authors of 'The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail' that you continually demand to promote. I think that the creator's opinions of his own subject matter are more important to what is written in some worldwide pulp bestseller that distorted what Plantard originally intended to create.
I have provided a factual summary of the Priory of Sion between 1956-1961. Are you going to delete that addition as well, and call me a "vandal" - because I refuse to promote an accretion to a subject matter on the basis of some "popularity"?
Paul Smith (4 September 2005 - and it is September and not August).
::Of course Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln should be included! The article should discuss what Plantard claimed and how it differs from BL&L, and also what critics hasve said about both. It should be COMPREHENSIVE. If it weren't for BL&L barely anone would have heard of the Priory of Sion. The "baloney" is part of the history of the subject.
::And there is no single "you" who deletes your additions. If you want to make sure thast correct information is not deleted, you have to keep an eye on the article and remove the addition of false information. That's how this open access encyclopedia works. Removing false information does not mean removing references to the theories of B,L&L, or of the characters in the Da Vinci Code, since it is correct to say that these authors have claimed X, Y and Z. If you wish to ensure that accuracy is maintained then explain your edits here. If you point out why you are making corrections, and your explanation is reasonable, then most editors will support you. Paul B 12:12, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Paul Smith writes

message: Please note that 195.92.168.167 A.K.A Paul Smith is also now user:Wfgh447, i tried to convince him to use this talk page but he still won't. Martin - The non-blue non-moose 08:33, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paul Smith: the return 

message: I know he has not commented of late, but Mr. Paul Smith's behaviour, in my opinion, gives credence to the Priory of Sion story.  Somebody this insane can't be serious.
128.61.41.39 10:37, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smith's bizarre actions