Talk:Economy of the United States/Archive 1

message: Topic being considered:
:Currently, several wikipedia articles take into account the European Union (EU) when discussing the gross domestic product (GDP) and ordered ranking of national economies. It is debated whether or not the EU should be referenced in these cases.
Pages where this consensus may apply:
*Economy of the European Union
*Economy of the United States
*European Union
*List of countries by GDP (nominal)
*List of countries by GDP (PPP)
*United States
In favor of including reference to the European Union:
Many economists and authorative reference sources online track and use the GDP of the European Union including:
*The CIA (World FactBook)
*The OECD
*The International Monetary Fund
Even the World Bank refers to the European Union as the world's largest trading economy.  The City of London tracks its importance relative to the European Union's economy as a whole.
Many online reference sources regularly make reference to the European Union and it is hard to imagine that there is any adverse effect on the readers of Wikipedia by including such a relevant reference point.  The International Monetary Fund does include the GDP of the EU as an option in its September 2004 World Economic Outlook database.  The European Union is not only a customs union as some may suggest and no authoriative general reference source or economic source makes that claim.  On the other hand, there are several sources that refer to the economy of the European Union.  When the EU refers to its single market that includes more than just a customs union.  The customs union argument is flawed.  Turkey is a member of the customs union and no attempt is made to aggregate the GDP of the EU with Turkey.    
If we were to exclude references to the European Union based on the standard proposed below, we would also have to say that countries like Andorra did not have an economy prior to 1999 (with the introduction of the euro) and that even the United States did not have an economy until 1861.  To apply a standard that would not allow us to talk about the GDP of the US prior to 1861 is unacceptable for an encyclopedia.  We should not reject a long standing consensus that has already been reached in several articles and that is suppported by many economic organizations and reference sources for a dubious standard and position that is proposed by one person and that is not supported by any outside sources.
In favor of excluding reference to the European Union:
Common currency and monetary policy are key characteristics of integrated, national economies. At present, only the EU members who use the Euro (referred to as Eurozone nations) meet these criteria. In non-Eurozone nations, it is not possible to participate in the single market or in Eurozone nations' individual economies without first transacting in the foreign exchange market. Because the entire EU is closer to a customs union than a unified economy, it should not be considered in national economic aggregates. The inclusion of specific customs unions, free trade areas or other logical groupings of nations will serve to lessen the comparability and usability of national data provided by authoritative sources. The World Bank does not include the full European Union in its ranking of national economies and only includes the Eurozone nations at the end of the data table with other regional groupings . The International Monetary Fund includes the EU and the Eurozone only as an option for geographic and historical aggregates; neither the EU nor the Eurozone are included in national comparisons in the September 2004 World Economic Outlook database .
The discussion of supranational GDPs is a valuable element of economic analysis in wikipedia articles, such as the discussion of regional or trade-area GDP in Economy of Asia, ASEAN Free Trade Area and Economy of Africa. The consumption and output of a region are objective facts that can be measured. The integration of disparate economies into a single national economy is an important geopolitical benchmark. In the United States, states governed by the Articles of Confederation were stripped of all sovereign power to issue currency by Article One of the United States Constitution. Such an action is crucial to the formation of a coherent economy from diverse member states.
The current ad hoc treatment of EU GDP as a national GDP obscures the distinction; listing the EU in ranked national lists without assigning a ranking (see List of countries by GDP (PPP)) is problematic. An earlier version of Economy of the United States described its GDP as "first (after EU)". Such treatment is ambiguous and lessens the usability of economic data.
Further, comparing a continent to a single country is not a correct comparison.  If we are to look at Europe as an aggregate, then we must also look at North America as an aggregate.  As such, this discussion may make sense under the topic "Economy of North America", but is not appropriate for "Economy of the US".
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Comment moved to talk page:
Could you write about role of Pentagon, government agencies like NASA and Universities and other scientific
organizations in US economy ?
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*http://www.whitehouse.gov/fsbr/esbr.html
*http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/oecon/homepage.htm
*http://factfinder.census.gov/bf/_lang=en_vt_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U_DP3_geo_id=01000US.html
*http://www.lib.memphis.edu/govpubs//statis1.htm
*http://www.bls.gov/cps/home.htm
Notes for economy article:
* largest GNP
* high in list of GNP per capita
* 5% world population
* 20% world coal production
**appalachians, wyoming, west va, kentucky, illinois, indiana, ohio
* 20% world copper production
**az, ut, montana, nv, nm
* 20% world crude oil production
**2nd largest producer. major oil fields in:
***alaska, calif, gulf of mexico, louisiana, oklahoma
* 50% world corn production
* slightly under 20% beef, pork, mutton and lamb
* 10%+ wheat production
US exports account for 10% of world exports.
enterprises such as airlines, telephones that are gov owned in other countries are privately run in US.
Taxation - federal, state and local government
* for federal tax
**personal income tax (most important source)
**federal excise tax on alcohol, gasoline, and tobacco.
*state (depends on state)
**income tax
**sales tax
**excise tax
*local 
**sales tax
**income tax
**prop tax
labor force
3/4 of all union members are AFL-CIO
soc sec taxes
industry
manufacturing 20% GNP
services second after manufacturing. fastest growth of all sectors in second half of 20th century
financial
*federal reserve - central banking by 12 fed reserve banks supervised by board of govs in DC
*treasury manages national debt - bonds, deposits in fed res banks.
*private commercial banks controlled by state. liberalization of state laws lead to more intra and inter state banking. 40% of all commercial banks belong to fed res system. Req for min reserve deposits in fed banks and req for percentage deposits of savings and checking accounts in fed banks.
*credit agencies, savings and loan institutions
*insurance, security and commodity brokerages
stock exchanges:
*major ones: nyse, amex, cboe, nasdaq(?? not exactly?)
**minor: pac stock exc
international trade
more debt owned to foreign creditors than reverse.
highway system:
44,000 mile Interstate Highway System. In all 50 states.
90% of cities w/ pop > 50,000 are connected. Carries 20% of nation traffic.
railroads:
primarily for moving freight. Amtrak is national passenger system.
waterways:
mississippi, great lakes, gulf coast, pacific and atlantic coasts. 
air:
500 public airports. Busiest is Chicago and Atlanta.
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Why is GDP per capita displayed so prominently?  I'm sure Saudi Arabia and Brunei have a high GDP as well, but most of that wealth goes to a small minority.  What is the reason for mentioning a statistic of GDP divided by population at the top as opposed to some other random statistic?  It implies that the average American is better off than other peoples (why else would you do that division), implying that Americans roughly get a similar share of that $33,000.  This is nothing like the case.  It's funny how capitalists present the US economy in a communist-like manner when it suits there purposes to do so.  I am removing this from the top because there is no reason for it's existence, especially the bogus implied impression, at the top of the page. -- Lancemurdoch 04:39, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Comment Summary

message: *For people this is impressive. Someone has aptly noted that the CIA fact book fiscal budget numbers are neither federal nor state and local receipts and expenditures. Does anyone know what the CIA fact book "Budget" (2003): "revenues: $1.782 trillion" and "expenditures: $2.156 trillion, including capital expenditures of NA" () are? All the other countries I just checked have their "Budget" in line with the 35-55% of GDP that OECD calculate from the "Fiscal balances and public indebtedness - EO75 Annex Tables" (().
*The BEA NIPA tables ()show 3,120.0 and 3,499.2 for Q1 '04, while this text show $3.127 and $3.499, is that a revision? Are these numbers consolidated by the BEA itself and is that where the numbers are from? - Jerryseinfeld 23:35, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Impressive 

message: The term market-oriented makes little sense.  People in the USSR went to the market as well.  The difference between the USSR and US were in production - control was either by by CPSU or corporate bureaucrats.  Thus the difference is one was capitalist, and the other called itself socialist.
This tone goes through much of this, which was originally written by the CIA(!), and includes a lot of double-talk.  I've also noted how the US government gave massive funding to things such as the Internet ('nee DARPAnet) and in the recent past has been spending millions a year on biotech projects like the Human Genome Project.
The explanation for a two-tier labor market is equally ideological - industrial productivity has increased over past decades, but the average inflation-adjusted hourly wage has actually fallen.  And professionals and white collar workers wages have been under attack as well, compare a programmers inflation-adjusted wages and unemployment rate today to say 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago.  White collar college-educated professionals were better off by almost any standard in the late 1960s in the US than today.  So the idea that the 20% of Americans who are professionals are living some sublime existence.
I have changed much of this.  I question whether US corporations "face higher barriers to entry in their rivals' home markets than the barriers to entry of foreign firms in US markets".  Barriers in what markets, tomatos? steel?  I seriously question whether this is true or not, but I'll leave it in anyway since I haven't researched it thoroughly. Ruy Lopez 12:06, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it possible for someone to be banned for chronic povulation? The CIA's World Factbook is a source of statistical information you dumbass, it doesn't have anything to do with their spooky Cold War operations. Trey Stone 23:07, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Statistical information" like this that found its way into the Wikipedia article?  "In this market-oriented economy, private individuals and business firms make most of the decisions, and the federal and state governments buy needed goods and services predominantly in the private marketplace. US business firms enjoy considerably greater flexibility than their counterparts in Western Europe and Japan in decisions to expand capital plant, to lay off surplus workers, and to develop new products. At the same time, they face higher barriers to entry in their rivals' home markets than the barriers to entry of foreign firms in US markets. US firms are at or near the forefront in technological advances, especially in computers and in medical, aerospace, and military equipment; their advantage has narrowed since the end of World War II. The onrush of technology largely explains the gradual development of a "two-tier labor market" in which those at the bottom lack the education and the professional/technical skills of those at the top and, more and more, fail to get comparable pay raises, health insurance coverage, and other benefits." Ruy Lopez 17:01, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  That passage you quoted seems factually accurate and quite unbiased to me. What is your problem with it? jni 11:52, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  We are talking about whether or not this passage contains statistical information or non-statistical information. What are you talking about, and what relation does it have to this thread? Ruy Lopez 12:12, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: The CIA World Factbook contains factual data about GDP, unemployment, poverty, population, etc etc., yes, as well as description like that, which as the above user said is factual. J. Parker Stone 00:09, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  changes 

message: *POV edit . Are these users reprimanded somehow? - Jerryseinfeld 17:19, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV nonsense 

message: The NPOV dispute tag seems to have been on this article a while, without an obvious reason why; any specific objections to removing it? Enchanter 19:51, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
:POV tag now removed. Enchanter 22:33, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
: I think the problem was that there has been edit wars about current economic conditions and the prominence given to issues like the trade deficit and hypothetical financial crisis scenarios. There have also been edit wars about socialism v. capitalism and the concept of a market-driven economy. Tfine80 04:50, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Why the NPOV dispute tag?