Talk:The Dark Knight/Archive 2

message: As with any other article on Wikipedia, The Dark Knight should have a high standard of verifiability.  When you include new information about the film, the information needs to be verifiable by other editors.  To do this, include where you got the information from by citing accordingly.  (My recommendation is to use the Cite news or the Cite web template for citing your source.)  Also, the citation must be a reliable source.  Ideally, the best information comes from those who are from the studio and not anonymous -- the director, the producers, the screenwriters, the cast, and so forth.  Sources of information that do not count as reliable sources include blogs, scooper reports, forums, etc.  If you are unsure about whether or not to include certain information, just ask about it on the talk page, and we will help you determine if it's worthy of inclusion. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 16:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: SuperHeroHype.com reporting that information doesn't strengthen the credibility of the source.  SuperHeroHype.com and IGN Movies have reported on unconfirmed information from Batman-on-Film.com; that doesn't mean the content is now verifiable enough for inclusion.  It's a matter of directly determining whether the information at Latino Review is verifiable.  As I said above, scooper reports aren't reliable enough to be verified.  The Latino Review article said, "Becks sent us in production reports from the first Batman Begins production, which were always confirmed!"  This means that the information in the article is not confirmed information.  When the information is confirmed by a reliable source, then that reliable source will be cited instead of Latino Review.  That's why even though Latino Review broke the news about Heath Ledger portraying Joker, we cited a more reliable source that showed the press release that confirmed Ledger as Joker. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 17:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Heads-up on including new information

message: Just out of curiosity, you should go over to the news page of www.comics2film.com! It says that Ethan Hawke is up for a role in "The Dark Knight." When asked about it, he allegedly said "A lawyer." Could Hawke be up for Harvey Dent? The only others considered are Josh Lucas and Jake Gyllenhaal. (Sorry Ryan Phillipe fans, Chris Nolan denied the rumors of him considered for Two-Face) --Jonathan.Bruce 07:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Ethan Hawke rumor originates from Batman on Film, which explicitly stated, "But remember BOF'ers, this is JUST A RUMOR."  Read the story there; it's hogwash.  Josh Lucas is cited as being interested in the role, as well as Liev Schreiber.  I recall, though, that Jake Gyllenhaal's agent said that Gylleenhaal wasn't going to be part of this project. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 23:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ethan Hawke?

message: Both seemingly cover a similar area of behind-the-scenes. Certainly the Theme section could benefit the Screenplay section, as could The Joker for that and the Casting section. Give me an answer some time before I decide to go ahead or not. Wiki-newbie 19:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand your intent to merge the two sections, because I've seen extensive production sections including this kind of information on the featured articles covering the Star Wars prequels.  However, I'm somewhat against merging the two sections at the moment.  The "Vision" section is mostly timeless since the information could be kept permanently in this film article.  However, the Cast section and some subsections in the Production section are underdeveloped (such as "Shooting" and "Film score") and bound to change and grow as production moves along.  My concern is being able to combine all the information in a way that would make sense.  In addition, I don't know if The Joker subsection would really belong in the Casting section, as the shaping of the Joker doesn't necessarily involve Ledger in the equation. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 19:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 'Vision' with 'Production' 

message: I reverted an attempt to create a trivia section, since we don't need to go backsliding now into the days of old.  The first trivia bit was about how the title lacks Batman, which I suppose the editor missed in the Title subsection.  The other was about how Christian Bale was now the second person to be Batman in two films after Michael Keaton.  If we want to include this latter bit, I'd suggest we add it to the Cast section.  We can reference the press release in which Ledger was announced as the Joker, because the same press release "confirmed" what had already been known, that Christian Bale would be back as Batman. Otherwise, I'm not really sure if this bit of "trivia" is as interesting as the title bit.  (Might've been more interesting if Bale was the first to portray Batman twice, and maybe it'll be interesting if he was the first to portray Batman thrice if there's a sequel to The Dark Knight.)  In the future, all trivia should be incorporated into the article.  --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 16:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia 

message: SuperoHeroHype.com linked to The Independent about a Gary Page working on costuming for The Dark Knight. Not sure if this is even significant enough for inclusion anywhere in the article, as most film articles don't seem to have costuming details.  Just giving a heads-up, anyway. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 16:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, but when it comes to comic book films, the design is somewhat significant for the character. Like Superman's design in Superman Returns. I haven't read the article, but it would really only be significant if they did major changes to the design. Bignole 16:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the only relevant part is this: "As the fabric buyer for the Batman sequel, he is busy sourcing stretch fabrics for the outfit worn by the man in black, played by Christian Bale, buying only the very finest materials in Paris. Now, his latest challenge is to make costumes for Peter Pan on a shoe-string budget of £10 per character."  The rest is about him working on a Peter Pan production.  Very much in passing. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 16:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, then I'd say it wasn't really that relevant. We already know they are doing preliminaries for the film. It doesn't appear to be about a "design". Bignole 16:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay...can you just offer the link? Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 06:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: IGN's article is based on some BOF scooper BS.  BOF says, "Well, an insider is back to offer a bit more insight into The Batman’s new threads... Our guy tells us to look for a suit that’s 'athletic' and be more 'fabricky'."  And Nolan didn't say @#$% — "Our source told BOF, '[Since The Joker is] much more dark, sinister, and threatening [in TDK], his costume is very much going to reflect that.' He added, 'It's not going to be a suit that is tailored for him, but more something he acquired. I mean, what tailor would actually make a suit for The Joker?'"  Scratch it, really.  Wish IGN wouldn't reference them at all. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Costume design 

message: He's not out is he i loved his two-face performance —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.129.223.109 (talk • contribs).
:There's been no mention of whether Tommy Lee Jones would be considered for Harvey Dent or not.  I would imagine, though, that the new Harvey Dent would be of similar age to Bruce Wayne.  Just keep watching the article, and I'm sure a Harvey Dent announcement will come soon enough. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 19:18, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tommy Lee Jones 

message: I recently tried to post something about the rumor that the Black Mask, or at least Roman Sionis, will appear in this movie, as well as that Karl Urban is rumored to play him.  However, I didn't have any sources, so it was deleted, and brought to my attention by Erikster.  Can anyone do something about this? Ultimen 03:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you don't have a source, then no other editor can verify your claim.  I could say that there's a rumor that Adam Sandler will be Harvey Dent in this sequel, and no one could question me.  That's why Wikipedia requires citing new information.  Even if you found citations, though, the information would not be reliable if it is categorized as a rumor.  If Nolan himself said that Sionis will be in the movie and that he was looking at Karl Urban to portray him, that wouldn't be a rumor.  But if it seems like it came out of nowhere, it's not trustworthy. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 04:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Black Mask 

message: Wiki-newbie originally proposed to merge Nolan's vision with Production, which I contested at the time.  However, having seen the application of this stitching process with FA-class film articles, I would like to tie the sections together.  I would also suggest placing the Joker subsection under Cast (renaming that section Cast and characters to be more encompassing).  300 had a similar setup to The Dark Knight, and Wiki-newbie was able to organize the content.  Compare the original version to what it looks like now.  If anyone contests this method of revision, leave a comment. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 22:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To explain my changes to all, I think the Joker and film score information work better in their own sections, as they're unique enough to stand alone.  I've re-organized the cast information in rough order of relevance, with the most recent casting, the possible returnees, and the reason for excluding Robin/Penguin.  I also removed mention that Nolan denied Penn and Phillippe were considered for roles, as this is just non-information, based on Internet rumors and not really notable.  Shuffled the production section as well to bring all the screenplay information together, with the most recent news about filming at the end. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 19:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weaving the sections together 

message: Where should we include (if at all) this new bit about the Joker being American, by Ledger?? Bignole 15:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not very encyclopedic. Everyone really knew Joker is an American. I don't think we note the same for Bale or Oldman. Wiki-newbie 15:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there was concern about this depiction of the Joker because of Ledger's accent, and whether or not he would make it american or if they would allow him his natural accent. Bignole 15:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: This seems a bit silly.  I never thought that Nolan was going to have Ledger play the Joker with an Australian accent.  That would be hella funny, but... I don't think it's necessary for inclusion.  From the article, it looks like Ledger used his natural accent for the first time in Candy, but won't be using it for The Dark Knight.  No biggie. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 19:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It just seemed like something to bring up because it was something someone that interviewed him obviously thought about, and for some reason SuperHeroHype felt a need to express. Oh well. Bignole 19:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it comes up, we'll always have the citation. Good effort and intentions as usual, Biggy. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 19:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Joker