Talk:Jerusalem in Islam

message: I think the best way to start mediation is by addressing the issues. THe first issue is:
Should the header start with "The city of Jerusalem is considered sacred by Islam" sourced to Yusuf Ali?
My answer is yes. Shamir1 do you still dispute this?Bless sins 15:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont disagree with this, provided that the caveat is mentioned that the Yusuf Ali translation is interpretation and not a direct translation. This is an important difference. -Ste|vertigo 06:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When it comes to that I think it should be written as: Jerusalem has played a great role in Islam. I think it sounds better since it also is written in the style like it has played a role, as in it has come to use by Islamic figures. This way, there is less dispute between interpretation and translation. --Shamir1 21:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Shamir1 are you saying that I'm misrepresenting the sources? This is what Yusuf Ali says. Do you think that Yusuf Ali is not a reliable source? Please state clearly your reason (based on wiki policy) for objecting to the statement.Bless sins 22:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Yusuf Ali doesn't translate a particular verse into saying what he says, rather makes his own commentary on a verse. And why do we need to evaluate "the process by which" a scholar performs his/her research? You yourself have said that the issue is of "views in proportion" and Ali's work is the "most prominent English Qur'an translation". SO what's the problem here?Bless sins 05:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry, but I do not understand your argument about "translation". Yusuf Ali's work is written in English, and I'm not doing any translation myself.Bless sins 21:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The literature I quote from is Ali's translation and commentary on and of the Quran. Ali's conclusion is part of his commentary on the Quran, not the translation of any particular verse. However, he bases his conclusion on a particular verse of the Quran. In this case Ali's opinions are very widely accepted (and I need to show you sources that suggest this), so we don't need to attribute him.Bless sins 23:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  So, to get to the point, are you saying that Ali should not be quoted now?  Ali's notability and his reference to Jerusalem alone makes him relevant. On the one hand you've suggested that you should offer "sources that suggest [the popularity of this view]", but on the other you say that Ali himself "[need not be attributed]?  I find your argument strange to say the least. Naturally there is a problem with asserting that Ali's views are supported in religious scripture, without explaining how he bases such interpretation. Likewise there is a problem with stating the popularity of his views without a source - I agree with you there. I think it will be interesting for the article to explain his commentary in depth, including, as you suggest, a note about his popularity among Muslims of diverse beliefs. Regards, -Stevertigo 05:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

text: You are free to make suggestions and improvements for other article as well, and if it interests you I suggest you challenge how the phrase you quoted is worded. It does seem to be a bit general, in the sense that its glorifying in that typically self-aggrandizing manner that all religions seem to conform to.  But back to the subject at hand, which is this article, I like your suggested additional sentence, but ideally, if Ali's is a major source or viewpoint, there should be more than just an added sentence. The most intereresting question that comes to mind is whether this view of Jerusalem was popular among Muslims before Ali. Regards, -Stevertigo 10:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

text: PS: "Yusuf Ali's commentary on the Quran is far more popular, scholarly and widely circulated amongst Muslim than Chabad i[s] amongst Jews" I'm not familiar with either Ali or Elifort, nor am I qualified to make some statement about their relative importance in their own cultural contexts. I will say that if you want to deal with the political status of Jerusalem, that is certainly relevant, but is best left in the context of the contemporary conflict articles, which can deal with more than just a religious view. For this mediation, I'm not very interested in getting into the political aspects until the religious ones are settled. -Stevertigo 10:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Were not talking about "unreliability," nor are we talking about any other articles. We're talking about the order and characterization of relevant sources - most important first. -Stevertigo 06:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, "I didnt say that Yusuf Ali is unreliable", or anything else about unreliability. But yes, let's leave it to this article. Go on. --Shamir1 00:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So do you agree or disagree with the Yusuf Ali lead? The sentecne "Jerusalem has long been embedded into Jewish religious consciousness" is definetly poetic.Bless sins 17:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Lets not base our work on bad examples. Again, if you have issues with how that statement is phrased, please reword it yourself, explaining your issues in the comment line. From what I gather from this conversation, as neither of you are very forthcoming with your answers: As a city, Jerusalem has traditionally been of marginal importance in Islam, save for the Al Aqsa Mosque, built on the site at which Muhammad is believed to have ascended physically into heaven. However the issue of its religious importance is compounded by the contemporary conflict between Jews and Arab Muslims —  arguments for and against the existence of the Jewish state are given a religious character by those who assert competing religious claims. In that context, the views that Jerusalem has a place of importance in Islam has gained in recent popularity among Muslims." Is this more or less correct? -Stevertigo 05:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

text:  Bless sins, I don't think you correctly understand the wording of the Judaism sentence you cited, but I prefer not to write much about it since it is off topic. I think Stevertigo is on the right path though, unless I hear any objections. --Shamir1 21:33, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. "Jerusalem has traditionally been of marginal importance in Islam". Compeltely wrong, as Yusuf Ali's quote suggests. "However the issue of its religious importance is compounded by the contemporary conflict between Jews and Arab Muslims". Again is thre any reliable source to show this?Bless sins 21:37, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The point is that there is little besides the Yusuf Ali quote to suggest a place of importance for Jerusalem, no? And because Ali is a very recent commentator, how is it possible to assert that his views are not recent views without other evidence? And, the reality of the Israel-Palestinian conflict and its pre-state history are obvious factors which relate to religious claims to Jerusalem. We hardly need a more reliable source than applying basic context. -Stevertigo 00:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

text: This is helpful in that it explains a reductive argument for the importance of Jerusalem. EOI presumably stands for Encyclopedia of Islam? -Stevertigo 00:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. You should agree that this source (in conjunction with Ali) should be reliable enough for the statement: "The city of Jerusalem is held sacred by the Islamic faith."Bless sins 13:55, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pardon me for being away. I am glad to see this is moving along. From a secular-historical viewpoint, the first qibla was chosen and then switched due to the reluctance of Jews to convert to Muhammad's faith. (see paragrah 1),  (see paragraph 2, or Ctrl+F --> Medina) (section 1) --Shamir1 20:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Let's keep this moving forward. Shamir1, you've not objected to saying Jerusalem is holy in Islam (using the sources posted above and Ali). Do you agree with including as the opening statement the sentence "The city of Jerusalem is considered sacred by the Islamic faith"?Bless sins 00:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The sentence you have offered, I don't agree with. look at how the section about Jerusalem in Judaism starts " Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Judaism and the spiritual homeland of the Jewish people since the 10th century BCE". There is no need to water down the importance of something in a religion. It's absolutely fair to say ""The city of Jerusalem is considered sacred by the Islamic faith" or " Jerusalem in Islam is revered as a holy site". As soon as you agree to this, I'll move one. Believe me, I don't want to continue the debate any more than you do.Bless sins 16:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first thing we need to do is to stop comparing this article or its first, second or third sentence to that of any other one. It is irrelevant and does not help us. There is no problem with the sentence I suggested rather than quoting Yusuf Ali or any other scholar. --Shamir1 03:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a problem, because the sentence you suggest is vague. Jerusalem has played a role in Islam, but so have hundreds of other cities. It must be said that Jerusalem is considered sacred by the Islamic faith. Where is Stevertigo?Bless sins 23:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seriously where is he? (And that does not make it vague.) --Shamir1 06:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, I think the Yusuf Ali quote is okay. --Shamir1 16:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry Ive been away so long. Real life raised its ugly head. I have some minor reservations here and there about certain comments from each of you, though I dont know if i should bother mentioning them, if they dont really make their way into the article. -Stevertigo 07:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  First issue 

message: User:Zero0000 said jerusalem being the third holiest islamic site is a mainstream islamic viewpoint, but this is clearly false. Shias consider Najaf the third holiest place. Salafis disassociate from any shrines. Destruction of sacred sites in Hijaz by the Saudis, initiated by Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab continues even today, to prevent, what some consider to be the practices of grave-worshipping and revering the deads and ask favors of the dead buried there. So there is no way any Salafi scholar calls Al Aqsa 'holy' considering islamic prophets are buried there. Plus, Quranists do not accept hadith so Quranists wouldn't accept Bukhari interpretations of Jerusalem being holy either since there are differing tafsir and scholarly opinions on 'Al-Aqsa'.
I think i have demonstrated that Jerusalem being the third holiest site is NOT the view of 3 major denominations of Islam.
Iwanttoeditthissh (talk) 12:56, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Iwanttoeditthissh, I think the most important point is that editors can't put a statement in an article on the basis that they have demonstrated something by putting forward an argument when that argument doesn't involve any reliable sources. It's the reliable sources that make the statements and the article content has to be based on their statements. It's mandatory policy, WP:V.  Sean.hoyland - talk 10:32, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third holy 

message: Holiest sites in Islam has something on the Islamic perspective on Jerusalem. Leo1pard (talk) 05:58, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with ''Holiest sites in Islam''? 

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