Talk:Cloisonné

message: The illustration is a brilliant object, but is that cloisonne technique? Wetman 06:54, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Better late than never I guess.  The wire is bent at right angles to it's length.  This is important when it is a sharp bend because the metal base is almost always flat.Zen-in (talk) 04:05, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Old stuff

message: ----
Cleaned up the first part of this article.  There was some confusion with polychrome gem inlay added recently.  Also enamel is not poured into the cells.  It is a fine powder when it is used.  Zen-in (talk) 04:13, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: No Chinese link?

message: The lead is the wrong place to launch into a description of how cloissoné is done.  If you want to write a section describing how gemstone inlay is done go ahead.  I wrote the section on how cloissoné enamel is done.  BTW: enamel is not poured into the cloissonés.  When enamel is that fluid, the color is destroyed.  Another hint:  stone inlays cannot be done with fine wire ( like cloissoné wire ) because the metal has to be hammered down so it clasps the stones on both sides.  Most decorative polychrome done today uses prongs instead of bezels.  Zen-in (talk) 03:24, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Modern techniques are not the whole story. I do not say gemstone cloissoné is done with wire, which it is not. While the article covers the whole term, the lead is exactly where the important distinction needs to be made. Take out the pouring if you like, but keep the distinction and the correct French etymology. Johnbod (talk) 03:29, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do want to edit war?  My edits included your "stone cloissoné".  You don't have the first idea how metal inlay is done.  If you hammer a stone it will break.  Fine wire like cloissoné wire is only used to set individual stones.  It will not hold stones that are on either side of it.  You should try doing some of this before you attempt to write about how it is done.  I have tried to compromise with you and instead you just reverted all of my work.  Why don't you go ahead and destroy the other parts I have added. Zen-in (talk) 03:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

text: "In either variety a shape making part of the design is surrounded by a thin metal edge, forming a compartment or partition (cloison in French)." You can't set two stones with a thin metal edge between them.  Why don't you let me finish my edits instead of reverting them immediately?  Zen-in (talk) 03:37, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You may not be able to pal, doesn't mean they could not!  "stone cloissoné" is your invented term. But I'm off for tonight, so I'll survey the wreckage tomorrow. Johnbod (talk) 04:10, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's clear you just want to be abusive and bring some wiki-drama into your life.  You'll have to find someone else to be your "pal".   Zen-in (talk) 04:27, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: "Cloisonné Primer" from "Glass on Metal, the Enamelist's Magazine" here has a very good description of the origins of the term cloisonné.  "January 1879 states during the fourteenth and sixteenth centuries what is now called simply cloisonné was called "esmaulx de plique" or "emaux de plite"."  As I stated much earlier the term originated in 19th century France.  Like any other technology it developed from earlier technologies.  Some people, in recent years have decided to call a lot of other things cloisonné. To make this a sensible article some distinction has to be made between the initial meaning of the word cloisonné and newer meanings.  They cannot be all lumped in together and made to look like the same thing.  Zen-in (talk) 19:51, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Plan

message: I will admit Zen has a point about dictionaries; all the ones I have looked at define cloisonné exclusively in terms of enamel, though some also refer to "flattened strips" or similar as well as wire. The UK "Longman Dictionary of the English Language" (which is perhaps a version of Websters - it is copyright "Merriam-Webster") even quotes as its example of usage "the Sutton Hoo shoulder clasps represent the high point of Anglo-Saxon cloisonné work".  These shoulder clasps are exactly the items I have used as an example above and unlike some Sutton Hoo items contain no enamel at all, nor has anyone ever suggested they do (except maybe Zen!).  As someone who has often cited dictionaries as authoritative, and especially the Oxford English Dictionary, I was amused to discover when I contacted them that one group of people who don't take this line at all are those who write them.  Obviously it helped that I was able to produce so many references from this discussion.  The preliminary response was very positive, & I expect that in due course the OED will contain a more satisfactory definition (their current one is unchanged since the 19th century, they confirmed).  They update the online edition quarterly & publish a list of the changes, so any changes they make will no doubt be picked up by the rest of the dictionaries eventually. I looked at the Merriam-Webster site, but they don't seem to encourage suggestions from the public in the same way. You can bet they watch the OED changes though.   Johnbod (talk) 11:39, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good to hear this from you johnbod.  I knew you would eventually come around to this view on the subject once you had looked at all the sources.  I don't have any problem with mentioning other types of cloisonné besides enamel in this article if you will agree that the primary and first meaning of the term is enamel cloisonné.   Zen-in (talk) 18:08, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've said I'm happy to say it is the most common, especially in modern contexts. I don't know about "primary" or "first", & I'm not sure this will still be what the big dictionaries are saying before all that long.  None of us know how the term was first used in either English or French, or what it was applied to, and the really famous pieces of cloisonné work (in the West anyway) tend not to use enamel.  Soon, when I have time, I will do a new version of the text, which certainly needs changing - the first sentence is not grammatical, & the 2nd & 3rd sections are largely duplicates of each other. Plus this discussion has produced new references etc. I suggest you let me do this & then we can discuss specific issues with the text here.    Johnbod (talk) 18:24, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's another picture of King Tut's solid gold mask in the Encyclopedia Brittanica  The talk is all about glass inlay; no use of the word cloisonné in the whole article.   It looks like you have your work cut out for you, getting all those dictionaries and encyclopedias changed. :)  Zen-in (talk) 00:55, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I didn't say there was any cloissone there, just the glass-paste you said didn't exist until the 19th century - obviously my jokes (above) are wasted on you. I think his pectoral has it though, like most surviving ones - check that out if you like. The OED will take it from here, & I thought you had already had to accept that all the encyclopedias were full of "museum curator talk". What does EB say about Sutton Hoo?  Johnbod (talk) 05:04, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Absolutely - the turning point is in the Byzantine period when the type with thinner wire is first used to make real "picture" images rather than geometrical patterns with thick walls & more geometrical or schematic designs.  The Chinese only used this new style, and also use wire decoratively in the middle of a field of the same colour - ie a line stopping in the middle of a field, like on the "petals" of the Ming head-dress.  In the earlier style the filling of the cloisons could be enamel, glass-paste or shaped bits of cut glass, all using very-similar if not identical metal base & cloison set-ups; the latter style can only use enamel.  One problem pin-pointing the moment of the shift is that most "early" Byzantine (pre- about 10th century) enamels turned out to be (probably) 19th century Russian forgeries a few decades ago, & scholars have rather been scared off since ().  But that is a minor issue for this article.  I think this approach is the best way to describe the whole history, & this discussion has at least produced the references to support emphasizing this major shift. The Egyptian reference is useful.  Johnbod (talk) 13:34, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: A big improvement.  Its well balanced and gives individual treatment to the different types of cloisonné.  The reference to plique-à-jour in the lead should stay.  There isn't a page for plique-à-jour yet; I will be writing one soon.  There is a good example of Byzantine enamel cloisonné on the Vitreous enamel page.  When you get finished with these edits I may want to suggest some revisions and references to add here.Zen-in (talk) 20:47, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad we're making progress. I have lots of refs (most already mentioned above here), but probably little text to add. The plique-à-jour sentence I moved down, adding ones on champleve etc - near bottom of enamel history  section.  Is that ok?  More tomorrow or at the w/e. Johnbod (talk) 01:57, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it looks good.  One book I have  describes champlèvé as having raised planes ( the translation of champlèvé) with enamel in the low areas.  The author (on page 145) says this was done by chiseling into thick metal.  Today pierced metal or wide bands of metal are soldered onto the base plate.  This book , on page 106 has an illustration of a 13th Century BC gold ring with cloisonné enamel, discovered in a Mycenaean tomb in Kouklia, Cyprus.  The wire used is very thin, like modern cloisonné wire.  This and other early cloisonné can be seen here . The author also states " The very early use of cloisonné may have been inspired by the goldsmith's familiarity with making enclosures for jewels ..."  Zen-in (talk) 03:58, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

text: You can see this in the Dillon ref online. Maybe they had some solution for the problem, but I think we should stick with the ref. It must be easy to tell when the pieces are examined. Johnbod (talk) 05:19, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It must have been a different brass alloy or composition of enamel.  Present day enamels fly off of brass as soon as they cool.  Zen-in (talk) 07:20, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Brass is a rather elastic term "Brass is any alloy of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties.[1] In comparison, bronze is principally an alloy of copper and tin.[2] Despite this distinction, some types of brasses are called bronzes." we say. Johnbod (talk) 15:02, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

text: For the purpose of enameling, brass is not used.  The only exceptions to this are modern abstract work where it doesn't matter if half the enamel flies off and possibly ancient work where the enamel composition was different.  Some alloys of brass have been called bronze, gold, and other names, and bronze has sometimes been mistaken for brass.   Zen-in (talk) 19:08, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dictionaries 

message: ::A big improvement.  Its well balanced and gives individual treatment to the different types of cloisonné.  The reference to plique-à-jour in the lead should stay.  There isn't a page for plique-à-jour yet; I will be writing one soon.  There is a good example of Byzantine enamel cloisonné on the Vitreous enamel page.  When you get finished with these edits I may want to suggest some revisions and references to add here.Zen-in (talk) 20:47, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad we're making progress. I have lots of refs (most already mentioned above here), but probably little text to add. The plique-à-jour sentence I moved down, adding ones on champleve etc - near bottom of enamel history  section.  Is that ok?  More tomorrow or at the w/e. Johnbod (talk) 01:57, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it looks good.  One book I have  describes champlèvé as having raised planes ( the translation of champlèvé) with enamel in the low areas.  The author (on page 145) says this was done by chiseling into thick metal.  Today pierced metal or wide bands of metal are soldered onto the base plate.  This book , on page 106 has an illustration of a 13th Century BC gold ring with cloisonné enamel, discovered in a Mycenaean tomb in Kouklia, Cyprus.  The wire used is very thin, like modern cloisonné wire.  This and other early cloisonné can be seen here . The author also states " The very early use of cloisonné may have been inspired by the goldsmith's familiarity with making enclosures for jewels ..."  Zen-in (talk) 03:58, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

text: You can see this in the Dillon ref online. Maybe they had some solution for the problem, but I think we should stick with the ref. It must be easy to tell when the pieces are examined. Johnbod (talk) 05:19, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It must have been a different brass alloy or composition of enamel.  Present day enamels fly off of brass as soon as they cool.  Zen-in (talk) 07:20, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Brass is a rather elastic term "Brass is any alloy of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties.[1] In comparison, bronze is principally an alloy of copper and tin.[2] Despite this distinction, some types of brasses are called bronzes." we say. Johnbod (talk) 15:02, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

text: For the purpose of enameling, brass is not used.  The only exceptions to this are modern abstract work where it doesn't matter if half the enamel flies off and possibly ancient work where the enamel composition was different.  Some alloys of brass have been called bronze, gold, and other names, and bronze has sometimes been mistaken for brass.   Zen-in (talk) 19:08, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: New draft discussion

message: "Cloisonné wire is made from pure silver or gold ..." - is this still true in the modern technique? Johnbod (talk) 03:13, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The cloisonné wire can be made from copper, but I have never seen copper cloisonné wire sold anywhere.  From a technical perspective copper wire has a lot of problems and would cost the same as silver wire, if it were available.  Zen-in (talk) 03:26, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

text: There is a link to the Chinese article, in the usual place for interwiki links - the column on the left, under "Languages". Bahudhara (talk) 02:37, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wire 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article uses a mix of SFNs and inline references. Wikipedia recommends not using a mix. This attitude is antiquated. I have no problem with a mix, providing the required info and consistency is used. The minimum for an SFN is author and date, with page number for book sources. With the source citation providing the rest of the recommended information. I recommend templates are used so the SFNs link with the full citations. Dates are noticeably absent in most SFNs in this article and should be added. The lack of links hide other shortcomings. I fixed many. I did not figure out "See Day, Enamelling, 7-10" and "V&A". I do not expect any consensus to be documented. User-duck (talk) 01:52, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Having written most of the article, certainly not using SFN, I don't think this should become the main style. How many sfn's were there before you started changes?  No doubt a little investigation will show what "See Day, Enamelling, 7-10" and "V&A" refer to.  What on earth does "I do not expect any consensus to be documented" mean?  See WP:CITEVAR. Johnbod (talk) 05:04, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Among other changes, I have now adjusted to the established style the only 2 sfn refs, both to Earle, which were only added in the last 6 months. It is typical cite-banditry to try to use these as an excuse to convert the whole article to sfn. Johnbod (talk) 17:58, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  References and consistent citation style.