Talk:BDSM/Archive 2

message: As nice as this article is, I'm wondering if it wouldn't make more sense to reorganize the BDSM and Sadism and Masochism pages: Outside the sadomasochistic subculture itself and maybe the internet, who has heard of "BDSM"? This term alway begs the question what to call the practitioners ("BDSMist?").
My suggestion would be to follow the convention that the Germans used with Datenschlag: Make the main article about consensual BDSM "Sadomasochism", which de facto would be the BDSM part, and make a side reference to "sadism, sexual" and "masochism, sexual", where the medical definitions from DSM-IV are treated (note that the APA doesn't really recognize sadomasochism as a paraphilia except in the sense that you can have fleas and lice at the same time). To be more exact, the dividing line is medical (the "B" criterium of DSM-IV) plus legal (the question of consensuality as used by countries like German where SM is legal). This also emphasizes the distinction between the SSC crowd and the paraphilias, which will be important once they get completely thrown out of DSM: All you have to do then is put a line about how the medical defintions are outdated in the medical parts.
In other words, the main trunk would be something like this:
Sadomasochism
* Defintion (with BDSM and link to sadism and masochisms a la APA
* Subgroupings (links to bondage (sexual) and all the other variants)
* History (science: Pico della Mirandola to Krafft-Ebing to Freud to Spengler; this includes concepts of disease; subculture: Eulenspiegel etc)
* Famous Sadomasochists (Rousseau [sp], Foucault, Madonna =8)  ...)
* Cultural references (Story of O, Comix, Films like Mano Destra or Secretary, music like madonna (again?), Guns 'n Roses...)
* Legal situation (or entries by country? Spanner case in GB, legal in DE)
* Whatever else
And as short texts:
Sadism, sexual
* Medical definition as in DSM-IV
Masochism, sexual
* Medical definition as in DSM-IV
Given that a lot of the central scientific literature, especially things like Spenglers "Sadomasochisten und ihre Subkulturen" or Weinberg's texts all refer to "sadomasochism" and not BDSM, this should make the whole subject more accessable and less geeky to the normal user.
Yes, I can help do this, though I am new to Wikipedia. I'm German-English bilingual, so I should be able to help incorporate the best stuff from the Datenschlag site.
Scot W. 00:23, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  reorganize 

message: In the article it says that the New Guard appeared in the mid-nineties, after the advent of the internet. I am not an expert on this, so I doubt that I will rewrite anything, but I have read elsewhere that the New Guard appeared around the same time as the Old Guard, in the 1950's or 60's. That New Guard was in fact stricter than Old Guard in some ways, and came as a reaction to what some people saw as sloppiness of the older people. It is possible that I have got this all wrong, but I believe that I have read this. Can someone who knows more about this clarify things a bit, in the article or here in the comments? --Blue Elf 00:04, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New and Old Guard

message: The German BDSM article reached "featured"-Status yesterday. It includes a lot of scientific, cultural and historical information from a broad variety of sources. Thanks a lot for plenty of inspiration and a lot of valuable resources on the eng:wiki. Regards from Munich.--Nemissimo 17:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just read it and it's really a great article. Good work and a well deserved featured status. This article could benefit a great deal from extensive translating. Sloan21 22:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Thanks to the English wiki-team working on BDSM

message: I'm considering a restructure of the article, summarizing earlier comments, and adding what material can be gleaned from the German pages.  Also, I'd like to archive this talk page and start anew as much of it is old or no longer applicable.
Existing structure (13 July 2006)
Contents
1 Psychological 
1.1 Psychiatric view 
2 Roles 
2.1 Dominant behaviour 
2.2 Submissive behaviour 
2.3 Tops and bottoms 
2.4 Switching 
3 Safety 
4 Conflict resolution 
5 Various practices 
6 Physiological 
7 Other points 
8 Terminology 
9 Etymology 
10 History 
11 International 
12 See also 
12.1 Lists of BDSM authors, artists and photographers 
12.2 Publishers (fiction and non-fiction) 
12.3 Support groups 
13 Documentaries 
14 Movies 
15 References and further reading 
16 External links 
German page (13 July 2006)
Table of contents 
1 Fundamentals 
2 Safety 
3 Partial aspects
3.1 Bondage/Discipline 
3.2 Domination and tender 
3.3 Sadomasochismus of 
3.4 Physical aspects 
4 Kinds of relations 
4.1 Play relations of 
4.1.1 Widespread role models 
4.2 Aussereroti BDSM 
4.3 Professional services 
5 Scene, subculture and public of 
5.1 Symbols of 
5.2 Prejudices 
5.3 Coming out 
5.4 SM parties 
6 Experience and psychology 
6.1 Occurrences 
6.2 Psychological classification 
7 History 
7.1 Historical Roots 
7.2 Leather Movement 
7.3 InterNet 
7.4 Term history 
8 Legal status 
8.1 Germany 
8.2 Austria 
8.3 Switzerland 
8.4 Great Britain 
9 BDSM in culture and media 
9.1 press and TV 
9.2 Belletristik of 
9.3 Special books 
9.4 Film and television 
9.5 Podcasts of 
9.6 Magazines 
10 See also 
11 Web Links
12 Sources
I'm not suggesting that we change the format to the German page format, but I think that we can incorporate some structural elements and sources in a way that will make our page much better.  Also one thing I liked was the larger number of pictures on the german page, and I think we could bring some of those over.
:I agree that the general structure needs improvement. For me the most interesting point is psychology though; 6.2 in German, but the very first section in English. I guess that says a lot about different perception, if people think it's nessecary to clarify that it's not a mental illness in one of the first sentences. Sloan21 22:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure discussion again 

message: While this is a great article, it suffers from a lack of verifiable sources. Mentions are made of the BDSM communities motivations and the popularity of various practices (ie stoplight safewords), and legal standing without providing any sources. Also the 'community' is referred to, but doesn't say whether it is referring to the US community, Western BDSM community in general or is conflating all of these. Sources would go a long way towards making all this clearer. Ashmoo 03:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To make it clearer which bits are lacking sources, I've added fact tags to the legal bit, and moved the unsourced tag down to the Safety section - were there other parts you thought lacking in sources? I presume community is the BDSM community in general(?) Mdwh 11:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder if the lack of sources is because much of the page was apparently translated from the German version, which may well have German-language (but not English-language) sources... 4.235.27.186 21:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: It seems we can use the symbol on wikipedia becaues its much older than stated initially. Could anyone please check this website The Myth of the BDSM Symbol and the information given there? --Nemissimo II 13:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Copyright only covers a particular work - it doesn't not cover something as vague as a symbol. So if I draw a cross, you can't make a copy of my work, but you can certainly draw your own cross. If someone has drawn a Triskelion and given permission to use it, then it's okay. Mdwh 22:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt that very strongly please READ The Myth of the BDSM Symbol ;-)--Nemissimo II 18:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What? One biased page? That is hardly conclusive. --J-Star 19:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  The correspondence between the page's owner and the triskellion's claimed copyrightholder is quite interesting and might open new perspectives on the matter. ;-) --Nemissimo II 20:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm afraid I don't follow what you are saying.  The Triskellion is a basic shape, and is not copyrighted, nor copyrightable.  Graphics and artwork are based on basic shapes all of the time.  The question for copyright lawyers is whether the design is unique and original, or not. (and not whether there are basic shapes, like circles, squares or triskellions in the unique design).  The question for wikipedians is, "Does someone claim a copyright".  (not whether we like, or choose to agree with the claim -- or not) Atom 20:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: BDSM Triskelion

message: Is the "Artists" section really necessary?  As it stands, it looks like a hodgepodge of links to sites of artists with vaguely BDSM themes, and the "songs" and "music videos" sections are even worse.  It's barely encyclopedic.  It should either be deleted, or rewritten with notability and verifiability in mind. Danny Lilithborne 09:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Artists 

message: Hi there. It may be just me, but I think it's rather weird to list Salo amongst the BDSM-orientated movies. This movie is, after all, supposed to be an allegory of dictatorial regimes in Italy, and I don't think the movie was made to really pleasure anyone. If this gets listed because there's bondage in it, or because there are things in it that the "mainstream crowd" generally doesn't enjoy, than why not list any movie in which somebody gets handcuffed, of why not list any movie that contains any gore? I may not know a damn thing about the subject; maybe that's the problem, but IMHO "Salo" has absolutely squat to do with BDSM. Greetings RagingR2 15:24, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Salo 

message: The following information is slowing this articles development while being barely encyclopedic. It's neither theoretacily well funded nor nearly complete.--84.152.211.223 16:10, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Temporary removal 

message: Every picture on this page where the bottom's sex is identifiable, she's female.  That's wildly misrepresentative of the demographics of folks who actually do BDSM. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jezziedoll (talk • contribs) 
:I agree: this is probably a reflection of the current demographics of Wikipedia, which at the moment has far too few female Wikipedians, and the popularity of the femsub image among vanilla male readers, something which does not, as you say, represent the true demographics of BDSMfolk. You are welcome to address this bias by adding images to the article which more accurately represent the balance between male and female, sub and dom. In particular, if you can provide new and more representative images which can be released under the GFDL, that would be very welcome. -- The Anome 18:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Every pic is femme bottom 

message: While http://http://alt.com/search/g795563-ppc.subwikipedia?ip=auto BDSM & Fetish Personals is added to the resource section, an important bdsm information that contains playlist at http://www.femdomale.com/BDSM-playlist.html is removed.  The commercial links are kept while informational page is deleted.  This is against Wikipedia's external links policy.  Please pay attention everyone. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Huanma (talk • contribs).
*Oh, it's that.  Oops. I thought it was another of those radio shows. ^_^ Danny Lilithborne 08:01, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resources 

message: Ive been having a look at the external links that the BDSM page points too and it seems to me that most are theory based pages with very little real life content. I think what we have to remember is most people who look at this page will be interested in the real life aspects of bdsm and not just how it all works in theory.
I also note that someone has written not to add new links directly but to discuss them here first or add them to the open directory. I understand this as an anti spamming measure but I had thought that this site was made by users for users and just going around removing links that have valid information without at least discussing it here first is rediculous even for an editor.
I also think that the editor responsible for he BDSM and related pages should actually have experience within the lifestyle, which in all honesty im not convinced they have. 
Anyway thats my opinion for what its worth. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blair29 (talk • contribs) 14:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: Anyone else think that this film should be added to the list of movies?  Use google if you've never heard of it (and you probably haven't - its pretty obscure atm). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.106.248.61 (talk) 21:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so, myself... the movie doesn't actually deal with consentual BDSM, does it? -- Schnee (cheeks clone) 00:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The Pet" 

message: I realize that different regions have different usages for terms.  Perhaps BDSM scene" is used more in England than the U.S.?
BDSM Lifestyle:
*"This page is for miscellaneous information about the lifestyle, sexual practices, and other general topics that are not specific to one role or mindset."
*"Defining The Bdsm Life Style: The Essential Prerequisite"
*"BDSM Lifestyle Starter Books "
*"Interview with BDSM Lifestyle"
*"Oh, and the thing BDSM proponents say about how you never can really leave the lifestyle because you won’t be able to resist coming back? "
And 102,000 other references
Also 23,000 for "leather lifestyle"
And of course, 74,500 for Swingers lifestyle
Atom 00:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the clarification -- I've just never heard "in the lifestyle" in this (or any) context.  I'll also (reluctantly) note that I'm American, not British. HalJor 01:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lifestyle 

message: Interessting article, just FYI. BDSM blossoms in Second Life
--217.227.18.77 15:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: BDSM in [[Second Life]]

message: Since the local translation process under talk:BDSM/de is stalling, I have asked for help here. I hope this will help, I'm still willing to give a hand, but I just can't handle it alone. Any help is highly appreciated. ;-)  --Nemissimo II 11:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Translation from the featured German article

message: Could any native speaker with access to literature write an according article? --Nemissimo II 18:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Genderflux

message: Wipipedia Is the most widely known wikiproject on BDSM, to delete this link is utter nonsense. --Nemissimo II 12:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of wippipedia link

message: I'd favor removing this from the movie section. While it does have a BDSM component, it's a generic comedic heist flick, dressed up in leather. The BDSM in "Exit To Eden" is crudely drawn and stereotypical, and the characters' kink is often the butt of bad jokes. The Ann Rice book "Exit To Eden" (on which this film is VERY loosely based), is great, but Hollywood really blew it with this one, as they often do with portraying BDSM. (...Just this gal's opinion....)
ElizaBarrington 03:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Exit To Eden"

message: Howdy! 
We recorded an audio version of this article, it's been uploaded. It's two parts (was too long for one part.) I'm not really sure how to do the link....I put it in twice with the two file names. If this is wrong, can someone help please? 
Thank you, 
Dollie and Daddy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DollieLlama (talk • contribs) 04:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Added "Spoken Wikipedia" files of this article

message: Added, this link:
* Spoken Wikipedia version of this article as a single MP3 file
then remembered "do not add links" notice and removed link, posted here as per notice. 
Daddy made this link as a single-file MP3 and hosted it, so people with no Vogg Orbis player could play it (also to deal with problem I'm having making the two-part linking work....the little speaker icon in the top right corner of the page is linking the second part, not the first part.....Also the code for the parts at bottom seem to not look right.) 
Is it ok to add this link to the link page? 
We are willing to record more BDSM and sex-related spoken articles, but need help with the code. Sorry if this is a bother...Reading the article is easier than writing the code. 
Thank you, 
Dollie
DollieLlama 09:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: regarding link to MP3 of "Spoken Wikipedia" file of this article

message: I just deleted this newly added "aspect". To me this is very clearly unsubstantiated POV. Please discuss it here and give reliable sources before adding it again. --Nemissimo II 09:12, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Egalitarian Masochist" 

message: The Service Top page was a stub that I filled out - someone else made it a useless link I undid their change.
For many of the terms it may be use useful to pull them into separate articles that heavily link back to the main. People who are only generally familiar with BDSM concepts may be just looking for a single term and forcing people to dig through a hefty tome may not be in Wiki's best interest.
Spandox 12:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glossary 

message: Why has the Translation Request (de)BDSM → (en) BDSM/translation  been deleted without any further discussion??--Nemissimo II 15:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion 

message: Regarding my recent revert - perhaps there should be some mention of BDSM as a paraphilia? Although psychologists' views specific to masochism are probably better off (at least, primarily) in Sadism and masochism or Sadism and masochism as medical terms. Also I think anything on this subject is better off starting with things like the official DSM and ICD definitions, and named psychologists' views, rather than deducing what a consensus is based on a single web article. Mdwh 21:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Paraphilia

message: Why has dolcett been removed and the article deleted ?Hektor 08:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dolcett

message: Uh... should I put in a bit about it being possible that sexual stimulation (biologically) would be caused by pain in a last-ditch effort for the animal to reproduce?  or is there another article?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.227.116.226 (talk) 22:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article covers a range of topics specific to humans, and it seems that there would be other articles more appropriate for a well-cited statement as you propose -- in particular, a subsection of Non-human animal sexual behavior (Types of Activity), perhaps.  Even if it were true for humans as well, it would probably belong under Sadism and masochism instead of this article. HalJor 00:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biological history 

message: Any help, especially proofreading by native speakers is highly appreciated. ;-)  --Nemissimo 20:25, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've just finished the translation. It would be great if someone could start proofreading it. After the proofreading I will integrate the minor aspects from the old article witch are not already included and move it.--Nemissimo 15:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article has been copy edited by native speakers and is nearly ready to be moved.--Nemissimo 15:01, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation of the featured German version continuous under [[Talk:BDSM/Translation]] 

message: Hey all - in researching an S&M dungeon here in New York City (Rebecca's Hidden Chamber, voted Best of New York City) they allowed me to take photographs of the professionals.  I did an interview with the owners and Mistresses for Wikinews that I expect to get transcribed soon; once I do, I'll put some of the photos on the page.  They are pretty high quality of professionals.  I think they'll they'll improve the quality of the page.  Just a "head's up".  --David Shankbone 21:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Photos from David Shankbone