Talk:List of szlachta

message: Tnx to the help of dr Marek Jerzy Minakowski, the list of people mentioned in the giant Polish Biographical Dictionary is here: List of Poles from Polski Słownik Biograficzny. Or will be as soon as I can figure how to convert ~25,000 entries into a Wiki-readable format. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 12:53, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polski Słownik Biograficzny 

message: This template should develop into a useful tool.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:52, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Template:Szlachciura]] 

message: What do you think about creating a new :Category:Polish noble families, for the families? We have quite a few now. It would be a subcategory of :Category:Noble families, and be equal for example to :Category:Russian noble families.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 05:09, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New category 

message: A distinction is made in this article that eludes me.  We are told that "Szlachta is the proper term for Polish nobility beginning about the 15th century.  Individuals listed as having lived earlier [none are so listed] should be referred to simply as Polish 'nobility,' not as 'szlachta.'"  How does "simple Polish 'nobility'" translate into Polish?  logologist|Talk 04:41, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Rycerze, możni. To the best of my knowledge szlachta was the term used from around 15th century, not earlier. Woje Mieszka czy rycerze spod Grunwaldu to nie szlachta przeciez?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 04:49, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Szlachta" vs. ?

message: Since this article deals, by its own statement, essentially with Poland's magnates, wouldn't it more properly be titled "List of Polish magnates"?  logologist|Talk 20:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are quite a few non-magnates here as well, as well as ancestors and 20th century descendants. Besides, it's hard to draw a clear line between magnates and non-magnates - it's like trying to differentiate between high class and middle/lower classes, but without benefit of income/wealth statistics (in most cases). While I don't doubt that eventually we will have enough data (and wikipedian power :>) to create a list of magnates, I think that time is still far away.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Title

message: *Is it coplete list of Polish nobility? I am not sure if I belong to szlachta. One of my ancestor had a surname Sivitsky or (I don't know Polish transcription). Can anybody help me? Igor Skoglund
**It is certainly not a complete list - rather a list of most famous noblesz. Try external links to associations of Polish nobility, they may be able to help you.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  02:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Complete list?

message: When I started this list years ago, I understood Wikipedia much less, and it was feasible to try to include all szlachta articles in it, as we had only few of them. Now, it is of course both impossible (we have thousands) and unneeded (that what's the category system is for). Still, the list is useless in listing the most important noble families and most important nobles. But we should decide on the criteria of notability. Based on :pl:Wikipedia:Głosowania/Zasady encyklopedyczności rodów szlacheckich w Polsce I have the following suggestions:
* for the families
** all three: 1) has at least three members notable in its own right; 2) has a notable impact on history of country or at least a region and 3) is mentioned in at least one reliable source
* for individuals
** all of the following: 1) held an office; 2) had a notable impact on history and 3) is mentioned in at least one reliable source
Reliable source are sourced listed on pl wikipedia in their notability sections, plus all other sources we would recognize as reliable (PSB, and so on). Please note that the critieria for inclusion in the list are stricter then those for notability: any family or noble who fulfills 3 and either 1 or 2 is notable, but you need all three to be in our list. Comments? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  17:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Update: I've pruned families under the above proposal, and added references from major Polish encyclopedias to the remaining ones. The remaining unreferenced ones should be referenced as soon as possible to justify their remaining in the list. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  01:33, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me see if I understand, so your three requirements for inclusion are for families on the List of Szlachta, not the list of Polish Noble Families, correct?  If so then the three requirements do not set the bar high enough, the Chołodecki family, which I have researched, easily meets your 3 criteria, but it was certainly not a family "that had accumulated great wealth and political power and had few equals" as the preamble to the list of Szlachta states, if that is what we want, then that should be our requirement.  I would say that Noble families that had a significant cultural influence should also be on that list.  --Milicz (talk) 17:44, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But how do we define a "significant cultural influence"? Being rich, powerful and famous is more easy to check.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  17:59, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking for noble families like Kossak which had numerous famous painters, Witkiewicz (famous painters, writers), Słowacki (famous writers) you could also include Mickiewicz, Sienkiewicz, although they were really limited to one individual, etc. --Milicz (talk) 18:31, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Kossaks are an interesting example, indeed. I would however exclude them from the current list, even through the individuals would be notable in our list of individuals and thus criteria for inclusion in it should be rewritten. My intent for the list of the families - and feel free to disagree and convince me otherwise - is to have only the "key" families listed. Kossak family may had had 3 famous painters, but people think of Kossak's the painters, not of Kossak family, which had done nothing notable other than had three great sons. Radziwiłł family, or Zamoyski one, were an institution in itself. Kossak family wasn't. Is this more clear? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  19:12, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is more clear. Do we include families that disappeared because they had no male heirs like the Zbaraski's or Zasławski's?--Milicz (talk) 19:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Both of them were quite powerful before they disappeared, so I'd say yes. Would you like to rewrite and repost my proposed notability criteria below, so we can make sure we are on the same page? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  20:10, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I would propose 
* for the families
** A family that had great wealth and political power and had few equals during its heyday, such a family would necessarily include all of the following: 1) Multiple members notable in their own right; 2) a notable impact on the history of the country, 3) is mentioned in reliable sources and 4) had substantial land holdings.
* for individuals
** two of the following: 1) held an office; 2) had a notable impact on history and 3) is mentioned in at least one reliable source.--Milicz (talk) 00:25, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Comments: substantial land holdings is important, but may be a bit difficult to prove with sources. It may be a bit too detailed for this anyway (note that we don't have a point for political power...). As for people, I'd note that criteria should be always 3), and either 1) or 2) (both not required). Actually, come to think of it, maybe we could drop 1 and just stick with 2? Not every voivode was important... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  00:29, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Purpose of the list and criteria for inclusion

message: Discussion about naming . M.K. (talk) 14:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion  

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thread_title:  External links modified