Talk:Ferdinand Marcos/Archive 1

message: WHY IS THERE NO MENTION OF THE GOLDEN BUDDAH?
SalTheButcher 10:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GOLDEN BUDDAH 

message: Should I rephrase the part that says: This so-called "People Power movement" as This People Power Movement? The current way the sentence is written appears to imply that few acknowledge it as a "People Power Movement". Edward Sandstig 13:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV about "People Power Movement"? 

message: Did he really conducted a Philippine national self-reliance programs including the research and development for their local automobile, with the acquisition and discoveries the secrets of nuclear and rocketry?
Yes, the Bagong Lipunan which was added to the article.
I was in the Philippines in all of the 21 years he was the ruler.  I've never heard of self-reliance programs, nor research and development for automobile, or nuclear, etc.  If he did they kept it to themselves.
It's all damn propaganda or excuses for funding proects to get kickbacks. Responsiblebum 05:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Philippine national self-reliance programs? 

message: It says Marcos was the second president of Ilocano ancestry.  Who was the first?  Forgive my curiosity.  I happen to be an Ilocano descendant.  Gerald Farinas 18:29, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ilocano Ancestry 

message: Do you really think reading two books (one of them citing a blatantly pro-Marcos and Marcos-controlled newspaper), and watching a video qualify you as some keeper of mystic knowledge? Truly? Well then I'm afraid that by comparison, my credentials will be rather weak: I just happened to have been there in 1986 as a reporter for the Manila Times. Yes, I saw that act where Ver asked Marcos for permission to attack the civilians. Had you been there, you would have known that though Marcos made a big public show of reluctance in private he did order the tanks to go in. That was the whole point of Edsa wasn't it? Civilians stopping tanks (actually Marine assault landing vehicles) on the corner of Edsa and Ortigas, where Robinson's Galleria is now. But you don't need to take my word for it, check it out in Karnow's book, Bonner's book, Burton's book, and Carlos P. Romulo's book. Second you'll just have to take my word for it (but don't worry, I'm currently digging up the relevant articles from the archive and should have them soon) that Marcos did indeed declare Martial Law. That was around the time his TV broadcast stations were captured so he had to go to radio (the government channel suddenly started playing cartoons), and was finally reduced to using a telephone -- where he was interrupted by a party line. Sometime in that sequence he tried saying he was declaring Martial Law, imposing a curfew, blah blah. "POV"? "Preposterous"? You should really try to come up with some sources to match your condescension. I'm sure I'll be impressed. Regards as always comment by 210.213.247.92 21:45, 4 December 2005 UTC
:Well, pardon me all over the place. I am sorry. Seeing that you once worked for an anti-Marcos newspaper during the Marcos regime, as well as citing from blatantly anti-Marcos sources, I understand. The point here is that Marcos was a controversial, polarizing figure and it will be extremely hard to write a fair and unbiased article that gives two sides to the story, not through EDSA-tinted glasses nor Martial Law tinted glasses. I'm calling for something that includes two equally represented sides, not a one-sided account by a Corysta, and not a one-sided account by a loyalist. It is fair to say that it is inevitable that the EDSA revolution demonized Marcos, but it is unfair to throw out everything that Marcos accomplished (economy, infrastructure, stability), warts (human rights abuses, corruption) and all. Thats why i believe in a fair account. I believe that airing out opinions and vendettas should be reserved for the talk pages, not the articles themselves. One more, it is a sweeping generalization that everybody believes that Marcos was the worst president the philippines had. I hope you see where im coming from and what my point is, because im not looking for a war or something here. Nobody's here to shit on someone's credentials, thats why i apologize if i did, but my point is fairness to both sides. Grievances, feuds and vendettas have no place for encyclopedia articles. Regards. comment by User:Soup 06:48, 5 December 2005
::There's a fine line between being "impartial" and a "denier" but it can be easily spotted. To write an article saying Marcos was a "controversial" figure without mentioning what he was famous for -- gross human rights violations (on which court awards were made), large-scale looting ( which the Swiss government itself acknowledged, by returning $685 million)  and destruction of institutions (as evidenced in the coup attempts between 1986 and 1990) -- strongly suggests an agenda to gloss over and whitewash. I smell the same sort of "impartiality" which fuels  some people who say Hitler "allegedly" persecuted Jews. Until you mention the most salient points of  Marcos' dictatorship (there, did that hurt to say it?) I'll be right here making sure that it's mentioned. By the way, I'm eager to read your sources for your insistent assertion that Marcos was good for the economy. 
::Marcos did declare Martial Law. Read it in Sandra Burton's "Impossible Dream", p. 402. Ah, but oh yes, anything that even breathes Marcos had a whiff of criminality about him is to you "anti-Marcos". Who's sweeping now? cheers comment by User:Carunungan 07:36, 5 December 2005
:::Both of you, please sign your comments by typing four tildes (~~~~).
:::Calling Marcos "the worst president the Philippines ever had" is a point of view. See the policy on maintaining a neutral point of view. Nobody is denying that Marcos did some bad things (to put it lightly), but we need to write the article in a more objective and neutral tone than you're approaching it, Carunungan. I certainly don't mean we should make it 50% good things and 50% bad things... what I mean is we should have unbiased writing that presenting conflicting views without asserting them. If we present the facts fairly, then they will speak for themself, and we should be careful not to state that any particular view at all is correct. Coffee 01:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Really? 

message: Is there any info about his family? Children/grandchildren? --84.188.147.22 02:33, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Family 

message: Marco is one of the worst things to happen to the Philippines!!! Did you know that before Marcos declared martial law the Philippines was one of the most economically developed countries in Asia, but because of his greed, the Philippines is now has the on of the worst economy in the world. He not only ruined the Philippines but he ruined many families, generally the Lopezes. The Lopezes are one of the most important families in the Philippines, running numerous important companies such as ABS-CBN, MERALCO, BENPRES, and a lot more.
I have to conclude that i hate Marcos and so do millions of people. The Marcoses can kiss my ass.
* Sore loser. 24.10.111.114 08:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Worst Thing to Happen to the Philippines 

message: I dont care how much you all hate the guy, or if he imprisoned a family member.
Just know that this is Wikipedia.  Neutrality is of utmost importance.  Don't rant, or insult here.  This is not a forum.  No one really cares how much you hate Marcos.
Marcos helped the country.  You read the article right?  He had intelligence.  I want to be like him, minus the nepotism, avarice, and big headedness.  Personally, I think he is a good study(not model) subject if you're in politics.  I'm of Ilocano descent, and I'm proud to be that way.  I'm proud that Marcos was one of us.  I don't give damn what others think.
Now, what I really want to talk about is the overuse of the word "crony".  It carries a negative connotation, which would not fit into Wikipedia's neutrality standards.  And I don't want it being replaced by something like "henchmen".
--------I'd be ashamed to be called Ilocano if I were you.
-------- 
That was rather uncalled for, sir.
----
HE HELPED THE COUNTRY!?! He only kept people happy enough long enough for him to rob it! When i pay my taxes i help the country. When i volunteer for government i help the country. When i create a business and provide jobs i help the country. Do any of these it make me excusable to loot the country?
The point is NOTHING MAKES IT EXCUSABLE TO RAPE AND PILLAGE A PEOPLE AND ITS' COUNTRY, WHICH IS WHAT HE DID. HIS POVERTY AND INFRASTRUCTURE PROGRAMS WERE A SHAM AND UNSUSTAINABLE. HIS INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS DID NOT GENERATE THE REVENUES (for citizens and government) TO JUSTIFY THE EXPENSE UNLESS STROKING HIS FUCKING EGO IS A JUSTIFIABLE RETURN ON INVESTMENT. I remember his housing and school projects. There were so much kickbacks those buildings lasted only 2 years. The Philippines had one of the most advanced railway systems in Asia. His cronies looted it (AND GAVE HIM A CUT) by asking for bribes to load your cargo. My dad still remembers trains running nearly empty of cargo cause no one could afford the bribes.
Maybe you should also defend Adolf Hitler for reviving German nationalism and industry. What idiocy...
What you said was pretty stupid in that your statements imply that just because someone has one good factor like intelligence then he can be avaricious, nepotistic, and a megalomaniac. THE FACT IS HIS INTELLIGENCE ONLY MEANS HE MUST PUT UNDER MORE EXACTING STANDARDS THAN THE REST OF US. Is it that Filipino attitude of never mind being egotistical so long as you can back it up? Have you no values?
I have raised valid points Ilocano. In the spirit of seeking the truth, I suggest you answer them to defend your Marcos. Perhaps you'll convert me.
I think the Ilocano is unwilling to admit error or incapable of defending his position. Responsiblebum 06:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion on editing 

message: This article says Marcos is of Japanese ancestry.  Is this ancestry enough to place him in the 'Japanese Filipino' category?  Thanks Hmains 00:01, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese ancestry 

message: I am a newcomer, however, I think this statement needs a reference.  When I went to the link on the Tasaday, it seemed to indicate that the "Tasaday Hoax", was itsself a hoax.  The article alluded to cororate interests attempting to get the Tasaday declared a hoax so they could gain access to their land and it's natural resources.  Where did the author get the information that "Marcos paid Manuel Elizalde Jr. to fake the Tasaday as a ethnic group?"
66.192.126.3 06:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marcos paid Manuel Elizalde Jr. to fake the Tasaday as a ethnic group? 

message: Torturing prisoners is not "mild streak". Burying them alive is not "mild streak." Imprisoning senators for years and years is not "mild streak" .  Rampant killing of the non-privileged is not "mild streak". I don't know what your definition of "mild streak" is.KaElin 02:31, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Mild streak" to his strongman's image  ???

message: I'd love to punch this guy in the nose and flaten it out, his already Flat nose! i hate this stupid son of bitch!Most corrupt president ever!
---FROM KRONOS251 SEPT.2006
To the Reader: What you see above is very immature.
In Reality:
The Philippines, as of to-day, is doomed perhaps beyond repair. 
For once,  Look beyond your pain. 
Should we all blame EVERYTHING to Marcos? 
The reason why there was a decline in the economy during the Eighties was because of the Iraq-Iran War (1981-1982). Saddam Hussein and Ayatollah Khumeini were holding the oil hostage against the world; and practically everybody, in nearly every country, be it communist or not, were suffering because of this type of strangulation.
So this can also be said a decade earlier, during the Israel-Palestinian War (1971-1972).
It was a tumultuous time back then. The Communists were in power, their height in the 1960’s, 1970’s; nearly half the world was in the grip of despair.
-China
-Malaysia
-Indonesia
-Laos
-Cambodia
-Vietnam
-Thailand
-The African States
-Latin America
-Jordan
-North Korea
… almost all, except the Philippines. Had Marcos not declare martial law and suspend the writ of habeas corpus, we would’ve gone the way of those countries mentioned. Communism is an elusive enemy. If you couldn’t remember how LBJ, Ford, Reagan and Bush Sr. lauded Marcos’ staunch stand against the Reds, perhaps you’d like to go here: www.presidency.ucsb.edu.
Being a respectable journalist that you are, go directly into the source. Look into their speeches that mention the former president. Scroll down directly under the First Bush-Dukakis Presidential Debate, and see how George Bush sympathizes about Marcos’ plight at the time, about how “his last combat mission (during WWII) was over Manila, and [he] knew that [Marcos] was fighting the imperialism down there.”
Reagan also remarked that, sadly, Marcos’ friends weren’t there when he needed them the most. The man, painted by the media as a butcher, had confused the United States and the entire world.
One may say that that’s a whole crock of nonsense, but how could 4 US presidents and the entire world be so sympathetic to Marcos during the 60’s and 70’s? How is it that the Philippines was second to Japan, as the most successful country in Asia?
The world media coverage over the latter years of Marcos were as rabid as its news coverage on the Vietnam War. Unjust, and omitting, to the point of mocking the idealistic cause of extinguishing the prevalent communist nihilism. Sensationalizing to buy newspapers, but not history however. The truth shall set the righteous free.
I am not stating that Marcos was infallible—of course not. Nobody is. In the first place, he should’ve relinquished the Office since his health was declining. (He only had one kidney; he lost the other due to a grenade blast in WWII). Caesar Virata, the Phil. PM at that time, was a great man to lead the Philippines due to years of experience at IMF, and later on at the ADB, as a consultant.
Graft and corruption was prevalent, yes. Nepotism, yes. The Romualdezes have a lot to answer for, that I agree. Perhaps that’s why Marcos told his wife, in the hearing of the rambunctious world press in the island of Hawaii, “It is all your fault.”
To be fair, Imelda made a better job of governing Manila than any who succeeded her. Nepotism is not so much of a problem, if a person really is doing their job.
Sadly you cannot say the same thing to-day.
Had Aquino not step in to take the reins, this country we had loved and fought for wouldn’t be in such a mess.  Her “kitchen cabinet” tactics, and the removal of the US bases in the Philippines had sealed the country into its own isolated suicide.
We are now the laughing stock of Asia. Instead of Japan, we’re now second to Indonesia; next to Ghana when the welfare of education is concerned.
I have never, in my entire life, felt so depressed for my own country. Democracy here indeed is dead. Such reasons force 3 out of 4 Filipinos to flee the country, to find a good life someplace else. 
I am sure you feel the same.
But we must move on. We MUST move on. We cannot dwell so much in the past.  Not anymore. Otherwise, the only solution is Civil War, the rich vs. the poor; the middle class in the meanwhile at the sidelines, half-way round the world, seeking asylum in a country other than their own.
---Reply: I VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE: but yes, the post above does not help
The threats of communism and oil prices were not sufficient factors for Marcos robbing the country as much as he did. It perhaps necessitated more extreme measures for security but let's look at South Korea, Thailand, Taiwan, and Japan. All had authoritarian regimes yet are vibrant democracies now. Their presidents/dictators made sure that they were bulding a future for their country and not just enriching themselves. 
There is a story in developmental economics of how the South Korean dictator/general during the cold war would wake up early in the morning to study economics taught by MIT professors (I can't remember korean names). Marcos had nothing like that. He wasn't stupid nor was he infalliable but god damn he was a greedy corrupt son of a bitch. And that's all we're hanging him for.
Imelda better at governing Manila? Well if you had the power to evict people without due process etc. etc. it's friggin easy. Problem was the number of poor and people who couldn't afford her projects (heart center, kidney center, lung center, etc.) just kept on increasing. Imelda had to start building walls to cover the "eyesores" she called squatters. You can build a really nice house but if you can't sustain it's operations, so what?
I like that thing about Marcos telling Imelda it was her fault. What? Is that suppose to make us soften our stance to him? Was he too stupid not to stop her earlier? Or was he too trusting with his close associates that he'd sacrifice the welfare of the Filipino people? Highly doubtful. Either way he should be hanged for it. A president has no business being president if he's this weak.
As for Reagan's comment, what the hell?! the guy's an actor. He wouldn't know anything about the social and economic situation of the Philippines. All his speeches and ideas were fed to him by his advisors and party. Reaganomics was cooked up by academics and Reagan personally got a (helluva) lot of the ideas wrong. His support of Marcos centered on America's interest in the Philippines not going communist. That's all he and the USA cared about. The USA couldn't care less about the human rights of non-Americans (Guantanamo Bay, Palestinians, Georgians, Possibly the Subic Rape Case, etc. anyone?) unless it's in their interest.
And what's this about moving on? Of course we have to move on but that doesn't mean we can't acknowledge the immorality and criminality of Marcos' regime. Yes we MUST move on but we also MUST REMEMBER and ACKNOWLEDGE the evil that was Marcos. To forgive him or not see the problem is to invite the disaster all over again. Responsiblebum 06:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corrupt President (?)