Talk:Transposing instrument

message: This statement:
:the recorder family. While recorders are made in a variety of sizes (and hence pitches), the recorder player is expected to read music at true pitch and adjust fingering accordingly.
isn't true in my experience -- I've seen alto recorder parts in F (although it's true that recorder players are usually able transposers, and perhaps the parts I've seen were prepared by clever publishers for beginners).
Anyway, is it necessary to list instruments which aren't transposing? Why would anyone "expect" them to be? --Wahoofive 06:30, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Many instruments whose ranges are extremely high or low transpose at the octave" is not the same as "many instruments who transpose at the octave have extremely high or low ranges."  The example of guitar and tenor voice being transposed at the octave is a counterpoint to the second statement, but not the first.  Furthermore, "many" is not "all" or even "most." I don't really think this is of any consequence, though... Alhead (talk) 02:01, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Challenge to recorders 

message: The following paragraph (formerly with the heading "Notes") is meaningless to me:
:The kind of transposition practiced by a given transposing instrument is always directly related to its fundamental pitch: an instrument in Eb always transposes to Eb (i.e. its own C will sound a concert pitch of Eb), never to Bb, D, G or any other note than Eb (in particular it follows that instruments whose fundamental pitch is C are never transposing); so to some extent being a transposing instrument (and what transposition such an instrument actually uses) has something to do with the physical properties of the instrument: at least the convention, if one wishes to call it that, is not entirely arbitrary; on the other hand it is true that there are wind instruments whose fundamental tone is a note other than C but that are not transposing instruments — see e.g. the recorder family.
It needs to be clarified or deleted.
--Wahoofive 06:30, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Trombone (and tuba) is a nontransposing B♭ instrument.  In fact, largely because of this confusion here and on the trombone article, I'm actually going to bother to write an article for nontransposing instruments, which should prove to be rather short, all things considered, but may clear up this mess once and for all.  --Jemiller226 19:40, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mystery paragraph

message: I removed references to "western music notation" in the third paragraph because tablature is fairly common in "western music notation" and it specifies how to produce sound. Volunteer Sibelius Salesman 17:53, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tablature is Western music notation 

message: I am a band director as well as a saxophone and clarinet player.  Therefore, I am certainly well versed in the concept of transposition.  The way this article is written is extremely confusing.  The goal should not be to boost ego in throwing around as much technical jargon as possible, but to appeal to anyone from Sally the seventh grade clarinet player to Johnny the college senior.  This has to be understood by anyone looking for more information on the subject relatively easily.--Jfulkerson 02:49, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: All true.  Feel free to lend a hand and edit the article yourself, if you wish.  The Uninvited Co., Inc. 16:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

text: I've tried to simplify it somewhat; feedback on whether or not it's helped anything would be appreciated. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 20:46, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good work on the intro. The section "Other transpositions" needs work, too. I'll do it if no one beats me to it. —Wahoofive (talk) 22:41, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing needed for clarity 

message: I am a saxophonist/clarinetis/flutist/player/teacher just learning about Wikipedia; I hope this is the correct place to post this info.  1. There are some (not many) piccolos pitched in Db, I believe for band (as in Sousa) music.  2. As far as I know, there is no such thing as a bass clarinet in A, as is listed at the end of the article - they're all in Bb, transposing the same as tenor sax (down a ninth).  3. I have explained the world of transposing instruments to lots of students and I think it mainly comes down to:  a. families of instruments that need to read the same way, b. instruments that don't sound as good in C as they do in Bb or Eb (esp. saxes, clarinets), and c. 'historical accident'. Note : trombones are an exception to a. and b. - they read in concert pitch (so alto trombonists do have to learn an entirely different way of reading), yet their "home" note (the note/overtone series based on first position with the slide all the way in) is a Bb.  i.e., they're pitched in the same key as trumpets (octave lower), but call the notes by their concert pitch names.  The key in which an instrument is pitched is based on some "home" note or scale; on woodwinds this is often the scale which  involves (more or less) picking up the fingers in order from bottom to top, for brass it's the no-valve-or-slide-all-the-way-in note on which the overtone series is based.  I hope this helps.  As I get more familiar with Wiki world I may take a stab at clarifying some of the explanations in the article.
67.67.223.140 16:05, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your comments, and welcome to Wikipedia! Don't be afraid to wade right in and start editing articles. If you can improve the section on "reasons for transposing instruments", go for it. I have added the high Db piccolo to the listing as you suggested, but I'm leaving the bass clarinet in A because the article on Bass clarinet mentions it – if you're dubious, ask on the talk page of that article for some evidence. This is sort of a summary page and it makes sense for this to reflect the content of the pages on the individual instruments; the Db piccolo is described on the piccolo page, and they even mention one in Ab. —Wahoofive (talk) 16:46, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Welcome to Wikipedia! --Craig Stuntz 03:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

text: "It was the Bb bass clarinet that became a member of the orchestra from the mid-nineteenth century; instruments in A were also in use at least in areas under the German influence." -- Nicholas Shackleton, "The Development of the Clarinet", in "The Cambridge Companion to the Clarinet", Colin Lawson (ed.), Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1995. --Rsholmes 03:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Db piccolo, no bass clarinet in A 

message: I don't want to make a major change without discussion/input of more experienced Wikipedia users.  I've rewritten the first section to try to clarify some issues.  I think an understanding of "concert pitch" is useful to establish from the outset, and I think the section on transposing keyboards is confusing and misleading, since it's using a different meaning of the word "transposing":
A transposing instrument is a musical instrument whose music is written at a pitch different from the actual "concert pitch".  Concert pitch is the pitch as notated for piano (or any other non-transposing instrument) - e.g., the note "C" on piano is a concert C.  On a transposing instrument, a concert C is written as another note.  On the surface, this may be confusing, but there are several reasons for the existence of transposing instruments.  The difference between a transposing instrument and a non-transposing instrument is only in whether or not the music is written at its sounding (concert) pitch; there is nothing about the physical construction of an instrument that makes the difference. 
There are several reasons an instrument may be a transposing instrument:
1- Some instruments belong to a family of instruments of different sizes (and, therefore, sounding at different pitches), such as the clarinet or the saxophone family.  Musicians can read the same notes on the page for each instrument in the family without having to learn new fingerings. For example, the note that is written as middle C for the alto saxophone and the tenor saxophone is fingered the same on each instrument, but the alto's sounding pitch will be higher than the tenor's.
2- Some instruments have a range that is too high or too low for their music to be easily written on the staff. In this case the music is written either an octave higher or lower than it sounds, in order to reduce the use of ledger lines.  Instruments that “transpose at the octave” are not playing in a different key from concert pitch instruments, but are sounding an octave higher or lower than written.
3- Because of sound and tone quality issues, some C (concert pitch) instruments – saxophones in C (the C melody and C soprano) and the C soprano clarinet, for example – have declined in popularity in favor of the currently more standard versions (Bb soprano and tenor sax, Eb alto and baritone; Bb and A clarinets).
4- Historically, some instruments have come to be accepted (and widely manufactured) with a certain transposition as a standard.
Special-T 06:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  First section rewrite 

message: I have substantially reorganized and rewritten this article; I hope to have made it clearer.  I am a rookie editor, so if I have been too bold in editing, or breached some etiquette, let me know, and revert/edit/reorganize.
Special-T 14:52, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  major re-org 

message: You may find this template quite useful for describing pitch ranges. Vandykee 10:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also 

message: The saxophone article asserts that some of Sax's envisioned "orchestral" saxes in C and F were never made.  I'm not aware of any instances of any other than the C-melody and the F-mezzo, though I'd be happy to learn otherwise.  I think the remaining C and F saxes should be delisted unless they can be shown to exist. -- Rsholmes 11:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saxes in C and F 

message: It seems to me that whether or not something is a "transposing instrument" is less a characteristic of the instrument than a matter of the convention for writing music for that instrument.  I think that saying something along those lines would help many readers.  Also,the talk about "using a transposing instrument" is somewhat misleading.  Most of the relevant text is really about the reasons for using a transposed notation, not the reasons for using that instrument. 151.200.237.145 23:03, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your first point is well taken; the opening paragraph could use some serious editing for clarity. However, your second point is weak: "transposing instrument" is the term used by musicians, and Wikipedia isn't the place to promote idealized jargon.  —Wahoofive (talk) 05:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't suggest changing the title of the article or banning the term "transposing instrument".  I don't know that musicians would talk about "reasons for using a transposing instrument" rather than, say, "reasons for using transposed notation", but it doesn't really matter.  The latter is a much clearer statement of what the article is addressing.  It doesn't address why one might use a trumpet (a transposing instrument) rather than a tuba (a non-transposing instrument).  Rather, it addresses why one would write music for the trumpet using a transposing convention.  In my own field I use all kinds of terminological shortcuts in the course of a day that would be inappropriate for an encyclopedia article, or even for formal writing directed at others in my field. 151.200.237.145 22:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Characteristic of instrument, or notational convention? 

message: Article currently reads:
Instruments in B♭ (low) — sounds an octave and a major second below what is written
* B♭ bass clarinet
* Tenor saxophone
* Euphonium when written in treble clef (British brass band music)
* Baritone horn when written in treble clef (British brass band music)
* Tenor trombone when written in treble clef (British brass band music)
In my experience, Baritone horn music is generally (not just in British brass band music) written in treble clef, as a B-flat transposing instrument. - Special-T 02:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baritone horn 

message: Please use that template for the references, or whatever it is, because there are notes in the current reference scheme that are not references.70.74.35.144 (talk) 02:17, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{tl|reflist}} 

message: "Instruments in C (8va) — sounds an octave above what is written"
Is that a malformed sentence?  Replacing the dashes by "produce" or "emit" would make sense, and changing "sounds" to "sound" (assuming it's a verb) would make sense, too, but as it stands, that sequence of words is confusing. Unfree (talk) 20:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subject and predicate?

message: I have a problem with the sentence "The advantage of traditional practice is that it facilitates spoken communication in rehearsal since conductor and player are looking at the same notation." It's not that I disagree with it: it's that I don't understand what it means. Who wrote it? It seems to suggest that a transposed score has an advantage over scores in C because it saves you the trouble of transposing. But this is obviously absurd. (If the conductor has trouble transposing from the score in C in order to communicate with the player, then he certainly will have trouble reading the full transposed score!) Can the sentence be improved?--72.225.250.121 (talk) 05:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conducting score 

message: Is an instrument (such as a contrabassoon) which transposes one octave lower than written, but still plays a C as a C considered a "Transposing instrument" in terms of terminology? There is a section in this article, but I've never heard of these kinds of instruments described as transposing instruments. If they aren't, they shouldn't be mentioned in this article (except in the negative saying that such instruments aren't called transposing instruments, as is mentioned for keyboards). Someone let me know and I'll make the appropriate edit. Even if they are considered transposing, the article needs some changes in that case as well. TheHYPO (talk) 17:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: They are transposing instruments. - Special-T (talk) 19:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

text: As you say, the written middle C sounds an octave lower than written.  That means, of course, that it is written an octave higher than concert pitch (the opposite of your first sentence).  Guitar is listed correctly as sounding an octave lower than written. - Special-T (talk) 23:22, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Working to understand.  Restating, the concert pitch of middle C on a guitar, expressed in Hz, is 130.813.  Therefore, the treble staff of a guitar score is said to be written one octave higher than the guitar sounds.  Gdmoore (talk) 02:01, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transposing at the octave? 

message: The earliest example of transposition I could find comes from the book "The History of Orchestration" by Adam Carse, (London 1925).  He explains that in the opera productions of London around 1735-1763, when the natural horn (no crooks) was used, it was customary to write the part one octave above sounding pitch with a key signature.  The score would show, for example, mezzo-soprano clef with one flat and a note written on the third space, an F.  By removing the flat and substituting a treble clef, the same written note on the third space became a written C.  This enabled the player to read the part for his instrument in F.  This clef substitution worked for other horn keys as well.  Horn in D appeared in the score in alto clef with two sharps but the horn player, reading in treble clef that same written note on the third space which was a D in alto clef became a C in treble clef.
This example leads me to believe that clef substitution was the first method of transposition and was used by horn players.  
Sheste (talk) 04:41, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transposition History 

message: Still trying to make that lede more accurate and clear.  Any thoughts on this:
A transposing instrument is a musical instrument for which the written notes differ from concert pitch. The concert pitch which sounds when playing a written C determines the key of that instrument's transposition. For example, a written C played on a B clarinet produces a concert B.
- Special-T (talk) 22:15, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing lede 

message: In barbershop music the lead and tenor parts are written an octave above the actual pitch in the treble clef.  This is done to separate the voices and because the range of the parts falls more naturally on the G clef.
--BenJackson (talk) 20:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But the article is about transposing instruments. - Special-T (talk) 01:03, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Include vocal music? 

message: I think that there are some instruments that are transposed in E, like the horn from a composition, like, "In the Hall of the Mountain King", by Grieg. Why is this?
125.60.235.220 (talk) 06:35, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not 100% sure, but I think you're mistaken. - Special-T (talk) 19:53, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  No instruments transposed in E? 

message: I'm fairly certain that within the G bugle family, the soprano bugle is comparable in tubing length to mellophone bugles, and thus sounds a fourth below, not a fifth above, written pitch.  Some manufacturers did produce "piccolo soprano" bugles, half the size and twice the pitch of standard sopranos, but these were rare.
Regarding French Horn bugles, early models had the same fundamental as a baritone bugle, but as bugles evolved and became more refined, the fundamental was brought up an octave to mellophone bugle range.
I hesitate to make any of these edits without citing an authoritative source, though.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.136.116.91 (talk) 21:50, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Do buglers routinely read written music?  And is it transposed to conform with the overtone series of the instrument?  If the answer to either of these is "no", then I don't think they're transposing instruments - it's all about the notation standard, not the fundamental pitch. - Special-T (talk) 00:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  G Bugles 

message: It should be made more clear that the whole thing is a matter of convention, that there is no physical difference between transposing instruments and non-transposing instruments, that in fact in some cases (such as the trombone and trumpets in German church choirs) the very same instrument may be transposing or non-transposing depending on who plays it using which tradition. I found the whole concept very confusing until I realized this simple fact which isn't made obvious in the article. -- 92.226.88.27 (talk) 01:31, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now modified the intro to clarify this. —Wahoofive (talk) 20:06, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Convention 

message: Tin whistles (pennywhistles) are an exception to the usual scheme for transposing woodwinds: their home scale is generally written as D major rather than C major. This results in the common D whistle being a "nontransposing" instrument.
Whistles in other keys are usually treated as transposing instruments relative to this: 
on a C whistle, a written C would sound as B, and a written D would sound as C.
On an F whistle, a written C would sound as E, and a written D would sound as F.
I mentioned this as an "exception" for woodwinds, along with the bassoon (that doesn't transpose) that's currently part of "Mechanical and physical considerations". Is there a better place for these exceptions?
AnotherOnymous (talk) 06:32, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems like a tin whistle is basically a kind of recorder, which are typically written at concert pitch (or at the octave). Methinks there are so many exceptions that the premise of this whole section is a crock. —Wahoofive (talk) 22:44, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at orchestra/band woodwinds (flutes, clarinets, oboes, bassoons, saxes - not recorders & whistles), bassoon seems to be the exception to the "pick up your fingers in order and you get a C scale" way of thinking about it.  I think it's a valid section, but then again, I probably wrote a lot of it several years ago. - Special-T (talk) 23:37, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The clarinet is a half-exception, since its low register is F-fingering (like the bassoon) but its second register is C-fingering, like most other woodwinds. The cor anglais is another exception, when notated in the old Italian fashion, in the bass clef (as in Rossini's Overture to William Tell). As far as tin whistles are concerned, they are not recorders (which are distinguished by the use of a thumb hole), and when one says their basic scale is "in D", this assumes six-finger D, not the seven-finger note one assumes for the flute, oboe, or saxophone. It used to be customary to refer to transverse flutes in the same way, because the classical one-keyed flute had six-finger D as the lowest note. I don't know how tin whistles are notated, however; the only whistle players I know (including myself, in the days when I used to play them) play mainly by ear, not from written music. The section of the article Tin_whistle#Notation may be of some use here. Fifes are also six-finger instruments and come in various keys but, once again, I have no idea what the notational conventions may be, since I have only ever played them by ear.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:34, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

text: Maybe the right solution is to just rewrite the section so it says "in some cases this is the reason for transposition", rather than its current rule-with-exceptions phrasing. Then we could just list the instruments which abide by the rule and ignore the others, since the reasons for why transpositions were implemented are various and in many cases unknown. —Wahoofive (talk) 16:30, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd much rather see the emphasis be on band/orchestra instruments.  They're the ones for which much music has been written (and read) with standardized transpositions that have been established over time. Plus I'd wager that 99.999% of questions/interest in the subject of transposing wind instruments is in this area.  Mentioning tinwhistles?  Great.  Saying that they merit this much weight as a significant counter-example to the "rule" mentioned is misleading. - Special-T (talk) 19:07, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tinwhistles 

message: I've just made a major edit, and I wanted to take the time to explain it here in detail (probably excessive detail, now that I'm reading it over). What I've done is to reorganize the list of instruments by transposition to make it easier to use for reference.
* I split the different types into article sections instead of a bulleted list, so that someone looking for a specific transposition type can simply click on it from the table of contents.
* I've organized everything at the top level by key, with subsections for specific types (e.g. high, low). This makes a lot more sense to me than going by size of transposition interval (i.e. all "high" transpositions, then all "regular" transpositions—I've kept this order for the subsections within each section).
* I've added the qualifier "regular" to transposition types that didn't have one before. I'm not sure whether "high," "very high" and the like are useful, but that's for another edit and another discussion.
* The D piccolo had been mistakenly listed under the header "instruments in D"; I've fixed this.
* I've standardized instruments as being referred to as "[key] [instrument]," rather than as "[instrument] in [key]" (e.g. "F trumpet" instead of "trumpet in F").
* I've added wikilinks to some instruments that previously lacked them.
* I've also added a section of non-transposing instruments.
I think these changes should greatly improve the list's utility. Skiasaurus (skē’ ə sôr’ əs) 21:09, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganization of list 

message: It's kind of weird that the article title is "instrument transposition" but the lede starts with "A transposing instrument...". It seems to me that the article used to be called "transposing instrument". I haven't dug through the history to see when that changed, but I think we should change it back. There's no discussion above about the title.
:I agree, even though, thanks to a redirect, anyone looking for "Transposing instrument" lands here. I wonder why it was changed and who changed it. Contact Basemetal here 18:41, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well of course. All dictionaries have an article called "Transposing instrument". Does any one know of any where transposing instruments are dealt with in an article called "Instrument transposition"? While I understand the author of the name change thought that would help people grasp the concept better, the place for such explanations is in the body of the article. The title of an article should be in all cases the accepted familiar term by which the concept is known, even though it might be slightly illogical or misleading. The title of an encyclopedia article is not, in general, the place where you start a language reform. Contact Basemetal here 20:55, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that WP:COMMONNAME is indisputably applicable here. As far as the logic of the previous name change goes, I remember seeing it happen at the time and wondering, "Is that really true?" Players of saxophones, for instance, do not by any means all read music, but surely still think in terms of a particular fingering producing a particular note. Do they really imagine different notes for the same fingering on alto and tenor? And do they think of the actual sounding note, or of the nominal note of an instrument "in C"? If the latter is the case, then transposition is as much a matter of the thinking process as it is of notation, so it might be "more logical" to title the article "Brain transposition", though it would probably be prudent to add a qualifier, "Brain transposition (musical instruments)", in order to avoid confusion with organ transplants!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:06, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians's article on the subject is entitled "Transposing instruments," so I'll defer to them and to the above arguments. Skiasaurus (skē’ ə sôr’ əs) 02:33, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: The section on diatonic instruments is less than ideal. Instrument transposition is a characteristic of notation - are these instruments (whistles, harmonicas) simply not considered transposing instruments because their music is rarely written (with the same notation standards as orchestra/band instruments)? To a harmonica player, do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do plays the same on any harmonica regardless of its key (like saxes, clarinets, etc.) but I suspect a notation standard has never developed because they don't use written music very often. - Special-T (talk) 12:34, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diatonic instruments 

message: Using the same wording to explain different instruments' transpositions makes it clearer because it emphasizes the sameness of the process. It's not literary or interesting, but it shouldn't be. I was going to revert it, but it's possible that I wrote that. - Special-T (talk) 18:17, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edit - repetitive wording emphasizes the similarity 

message: I just changed the caption to a picture of a score.  I'm pretty sure that I've assessed the transpositions accurately, but it would be great if someone more familiar with it could check. - Special-T (talk) 13:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Someone check my edit?