Talk:Gerald Posner

message: Someone who cares about this more than I do might want to add this in: The erased CIA tapes that are at the center of a current scandal may have contained footage of the interrogation detailed in Posner's 2003 book. And while you're at it, please clean up that section a bit.--Rockero (talk) 07:47, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that because of a medical condition or plastic surgery though? He looks very strange....hormonal imbalance, plastic surgery addiction, or something else?? 68.173.54.151 (talk) 14:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  CIA Tapes 

message: Where did that photo come from, and how relevent is it? Posner is over 50 now. He looks like a punk rocker in the pic.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.87.221 (talk) 15:41, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo 

message: CIA agent E. Howard Hunt's confession to being part of the JFK conspiracy has now been made public.  Likewise, the evidence, from the NORAD standing down to the obviously controlled demolition of WTC 7, makes it obvious to the un-brainwashed that 9/11 was staged by the US government.  Whether this guy just freelances or actually is contracted to cover-up the crimes of the deep state is somewhat irrelevant here, either way this guy is a professional liar and a traitor to the US constitution.
Why does Wikipedia have to lie too?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.149.232.124 (talk) 20:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Professional Liar and Traitor to the US Constitution 

message: This page was recently vandalized below the References area. (some silliness about being in the Nazi party and killing Michael Jackson.
Perhaps it should be locked.— Preceding unsigned comment added by  209.74.22.158  (talk • contribs)  13:37, 7 August 2009‎ (UTC)
It has been vandalized twice now but it's been cleaned up pretty fast both times --Trishawiki (talk) 14:25, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalized 

message: Critical references and information are repeatedly being removed to minimize the information on plagiarism. The repeated removal of details and portions of the documentation - especially in regard to quote tampering - is inappropriate.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.39.244 (talk) 01:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: For the second time, do not make unfounded accusations against other editors.  You have no evidence to show that edits were made for anything other than the stated reason.  The quote tampering allegation was removed because it is sourced to a blog.  It is forbidden by policy to make such accusations without a solid source (i.e. a mainstream newspaper). Gamaliel (talk) 01:56, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

text: I've responded to what appear to be identical comments left on my talk page if anyone is interested in my position on the matter.  See User_talk:Gamaliel#Gerald_Posner_page. Gamaliel (talk) 14:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute regarding plagiarism section 

message: The following constitutes a large portion of the Gerald Posner biography (i.e. the initial segment of the Gerald Posner Wikipedia entry):
"John Martin of ABC News says ‘Gerald Posner is one of the most resourceful investigators I have encountered in thirty years of journalism.’ Garry Wills calls Posner ‘a superb investigative reporter,’ while the Los Angeles Times dubs him ‘a classic-style investigative journalist.’ ‘His work is painstakingly honest journalism’ concluded the Washington Post. The New York Times lauded his ‘exhaustive research techniques’ and The Boston Globe determined Posner is ‘an investigative journalist whose work is marked by his thorough and meticulous research.’ ‘A resourceful investigator and skillful writer,’ says The Dallas Morning News."
One or two quotes might not be problematic. But this certainly has the feel of an advertisement. It’s disproportionate in length and especially problematic since it now appears that, in reality, he is neither “painstakingly honest” nor “meticulous” (having plagiarized, falsified quotes in the plagiarized text, etc.).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eurytemora (talk • contribs) 07:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality? 

message: Critical information regarding the Posner Plagiarism case appears to be missing.  Article appears to be biased and lacking in recent data.  Information on plagiarism appears to be minimized and deserves its own subheading.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.58.205 (talk) 22:49, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: POSNER PLAGIARISM INFORMATION IS MISSING

message: Much of the Posner biography section appears to have been written by Posner himself. It’s an exact duplicate of the advertisement at his website. There have been complaints that the laudatory quotations were not sourced, so I decided to check them, at least in the case of the newspapers Posner cites. Also, in general, a newspaper as a whole doesn’t make such statements (as Posner’s language would imply) – rather, a particular book reviewer or reporter, writing in the newspaper, is making the statement. 
>"A resourceful investigator and skillful writer," says The Dallas Morning News.
An exhaustive text search of the Dallas Morning News archives failed to find any such quote referring to Posner.
> The Boston Globe determined Posner is "an investigative journalist whose work is marked by his thorough and meticulous research."
An exhaustive text search of the Boston Globe archives failed to find such a quote referring to Posner.
> "His work is painstakingly honest journalism" concluded the Washington Post.
An exhaustive text search of the Washington Post archives failed to find any such quote referring to Posner.  However, I was able to find the phrase “painstakingly honest journalism" referring to Posner in an article written by Joe Sharkey in New York Times. The remainder of the quote differed however.
The remaining two quotes (one from the Los Angeles Times and one from the New York Times) were both verified as correct. The language of the biography section has been modified accordingly.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.33.55.204 (talk) 02:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apparent errors in the laudatory section of the biography 

message: Based on the history of this article, on August 22, 2007 Gerald Posner added the following sentence:
"After Case Closed, everyone thinks Oswald did it" - Newsweek.
The sentence has been retained until the present (the recent form of the sentence is: "After Case Closed, everyone thinks Oswald did it," wrote Newsweek.).
An exhaustive  search of Newsweek archives (in addition to searches of a full text archive of Newsweek via EBSCOhost, and a search using LexisNexis) failed to find any such quote (or even a similar quote). Such a quote was also not located in searches of databases of all U.S. newspapers.
Consequently, the sentence has been removed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.39.244 (talk) 09:49, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: An Additional Apparently Erroneous Quote

message: Given the recently published revelations (in Slate, Miami New Times, etc.) of Posner’s plagiarism and quote falsification/fabrication, it appears necessary to insert material respecting long-standing concerns about potential interview fabrications (i.e. people who Posner claimed to have interviewed who denied ever having been interviewed by him).
The added material is fully sourced, except for Posner’s rebuttal claims (his assertion regarding tapes and a phone bill). It appears that no sources that meet Wikipedia citation standards exist for Posner’s rebuttal claims, but I’ve added his rebuttal arguments to maintain fairness to Posner. 
Full disclosure: I personally believe that Oswald did it, but believe that there are legitimate concerns about Posner’s reporting.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eurytemora (talk • contribs) 05:18, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Information regarding suspect interviews

message: I left a note at User talk:Miamiskull about COI. I suggested he raise any concerns at this talk page or at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Maurreen (talk) 18:17, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arbitrary break 

message: More regarding any of my changes so there is complete transparency as to why I added any recent information to the article itself, as opposed to just making comments or providing info here in talk.   (1)  The last two sentences of the first paragraph under "Writings: Case Closed" deal with the book being optioned for a miniseries.  Before, it had it in the present tense, as if the book was still to be made into a movie.  But the correction is to note that David Wolper had optioned it, and then expressed in his memoir that the failure to develop Case Closed into a film was one of his two career disappointments.  Considering it is David Wolper, who successfully 'produced' an Olympics, and shows such as Roots, it seems a relevant piece of information. And it is more accurate than what had been there.  The citation is to the electronic page of Wolper's book where he makes the statement about Case Closed.   The first sentence of the third paragraph under "Writings: Case Closed" - The lead off to this paragraph had been what is now the second sentence.  I believe that it is fair to balance the "widespread criticism from assassination researchers" with "widespread critical acclaim from the mainstream media."  The citation I provided in support of this includes 18 source citations.  I am sure I could get more, but think this is adequate.  Also, I very specifically chose the words "mainstream media."   (3) In "External Links" I added in Posner's Facebook, Twitter, Google+ and Linkedin account.  People who are researching him can also find him or info on him at those web locations.  I added in, as well, links to articles collected by him as collected by The Huffington Post and the Daily Beast.  And finally, I deleted the Gerald Posner, Slate.com Weathervane - it is a current 2012 page, Houston chronicle.com = item not found, The Right Perspective podcast blog = doesn't exist.    I will continue to try and add to citations needed in the biographical section, as I have added a couple. But it takes time to find them, so it might be a tad slow.   I hope this helpful in providing the transparent information so anyone who comes to this talk section will agree that my edits  are those with which a neutral editor would agree with.--Trishawiki (talk) 14:47, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arbitrary break 

message: Here’s a suggested alternative for the sentence in dispute:
The Miami New Times also found that Posner “seems to add, subtract, or misattribute quotes” and displayed a series of such “apparently altered or misattributed quotes”. For all the examples shown, Posner cited a source article, where an examination of the source showed that the quote given in Posner’s writing was either substantially altered (e.g. words added), never said by the subject, misattributed, or used out of context.
Almost all the language in this alternative comes directly from the referenced articles (this should satisfy even the most stringent “attribution” requirement). The first sentence consists mainly of quotes from the referenced articles, and the second is largely composed of the precise words used in the articles (which refer to “altered quotes”, words “added”, quotes that the person “never says”, quotes that are “misattributed”, and quotes that are “used out of context”).  It’s slightly longer and less elegant than the original version, but that’s unavoidable given the request for “attribution” and the need to accurately mirror the information in the referenced articles. Eurytemora (talk) 21:38, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If updated info is added about the journalism scandal, perhaps its impact could be downweighted by shifting this material from the Biography to the end of the article (recognizing CheeseStakeHolder’s preferences). Eurytemora (talk) 11:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Meanwhile we need to be exercise care to source all controversial and negative statements. The lead says that he is the subject of a "scandal." That's a loaded word to put in the lea. I think "controversy" is more neutral. I'm also concerned about a statement in the "Case Closed" subsection that is equally not sourced. I'm going to change the lead and add an appropriate tag to the Case Closed section. The situation here is not unique to Wikipedia. I looked over in the HElen Thomas entry and, as I expected, now a overly large amount of that article is devoted to her recent troubles. There seems to be a systemic bias in Wikipedia against the media, which emerges in biography articles. I'm not saying we don't write about the troubles these people have. Of course we do. But we need to keep it in proportion. In the case of Thomas, she had a sixty year career, albeit one definitely marred by her recent comments. Now there's a discussion there about whether to label her as an "antisemite." Wikipedia tends to go overboard too much, and to take a sensationalistic approach in dealing with the media. CheeseStakeholder (talk) 14:55, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Arg! Please avoid kneejerk edits based on instinct (e.g. to protect Posner) without careful review of the actual data. 1. Posner has acknowledged the plagiarism (though calling it inadvertent). And his employer - the Daily Beast - stated that it was definitively plagiarism. So it's not just an allegation. And labeling it as such is actually inaccurate. 2. It appears that essentially everyone in the world acknowledges that this is a "journalism scandal" (and it is labeled as such in most "reliable sources"). 3. This is not an analogous case to Helen Thomas. With Posner there's a long history of problems. And the problems include the cardinal sins of journalism. That's entirely different than a single insensitive politically-loaded remark. Moreover, I looked at the Helen Thomas page yesterday, and the general consensus in discussion was that the "antisemite" label should not be used. Eurytemora (talk) 15:38, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

text: If anyone wants to insert them, I dug up references for three of the things tagged as needing citation. For the NY Times quote in Biography  and for the LA Times quote in Biography . Also, for the Garry Wills quote in Biography  – seems to not be available online, but proper reference via Newsbank is: Perot's troubling anti-Semitic ties. Chicago Sun-Times. August 19, 1996. Author:Garry Wills               Eurytemora (talk) 11:05, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitrary Break

message: The text that Gerald Posner added to this article on August 31, 2007  appears to contain some major inaccuracies. I was just looking at a sentence Posner added to the Why America Slept section:
“Prince Ahmed, two other Saudi princes named by Posner, and the chief of the Pakistani Air Force, all died within days of each other, either from a blood clot after a simple operation, a car wreck involving only one vehicle, dehydration in the desert, or a sabotaged helicopter explosion.” 
This text has remained in the article since his addition (a couple spelling errors have been corrected, but no wording modifications have been made). Posner is essentially trying to claim that all these men were actually assassinated in a conspiracy.
Posner states that the four men “all died within days of each other”. Prince Ahmed (Ahmed bin Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud) died on July 22, 2002. The “chief of the Pakistani Air Force” that Posner is referring to is Mushaf Ali Mir, who died on February 20, 2003. So these men did not die “within days of each other” (i.e. Posner’s description here is a frank inaccuracy). Also, Mushaf Ali Mir died in a crash of a Fokker F27. This is a turboprop airplane, not a helicopter.  The plane hit a mountain (3000 foot elevation) obscured by dense clouds (as confirmed by numerous local witnesses in news accounts), near Kohat, Pakistan. An inquiry by the Pakistani Air Force found the crash to have been caused by a combination of pilot error (beginning descent too soon, given the low cloudbank) and poor visibility (both fog and dense clouds are mentioned). Sabotage was specifically excluded as a cause. Here’s the Aviation Safety Network description. So calling it a “sabotaged helicopter explosion” is a frank inaccuracy. Also, the operation that Prince Ahmed underwent was apparently surgery for diverticulitis – this surgery is known to be associated with high mortality and morbidity (i.e. severe complications). E.g. journal articles cite numbers as high as 16.7% mortality and 71% morbidity in surgery for acute diverticulitis (numbers are better, though still rather high in elective surgical cases). So calling it “a simple operation” is rather misleading.
Hopefully, at some point, this section of the article will be fully researched and corrected. Eurytemora (talk) 07:57, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll tag the specific passage you cite. Can you provide sourcing for your statements? CheeseStakeholder (talk) 15:28, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Inaccuracies in text that Gerald Posner added to this article

message: This edit is pretty funny.—Chowbok ☠ 00:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irony 

message: I have removed the following:
:However, the veracity of elements of his testimony has been questioned. In particular, certain individuals that Posner claimed to have interviewed (James Tague, a witness lightly wounded in the assassination, and J. Thorton Boswell, one of the autopsy pathologists) said that they had never spoken to Posner,[12] and both autopsy pathologists denied positions that Posner attributed to them.[13][14][15] Posner responded that he had tapes of himself interviewing Tague and Boswell. Posner also cited his phone bill as evidence of the conversations. However, he made the bill available on only a restricted basis, and discrepancies in the bill have resulted in questions about its validity.
Per WP:WEIGHT, a single letter to the editor is not enough to support the contention that the veracity of his testimony is in question. Per WP:SYNTH, it is not acceptable to cherry-pick then string together primary source material in the above manner. This is a BLP, so secondary source coverage is required for these types of claims. Location (talk) 00:50, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Good riddance.  Looks like the conspiracy folks have been chipping away at it.  I've seen a picture of the phone bill on the internet, that last sentence is complete nonsense. Gamaliel (talk) 01:09, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:WEIGHT and WP:SYNTH

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100530033504/http://gawker.com:80/5549404/gerald-posners-originality-pays-off to http://gawker.com/5549404/gerald-posners-originality-pays-off
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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