Talk:Fast of Gedalia

message: Please correct my study... Somehow I'm identifying that Rosh Hashannah is two days of celebration, or actually the twilight moment, at dusk between first and second of tishri. That this moment is the transition from the sixth day of creation to the seventh day; that it is the completion, and crowning of creation with Adam Kadmon, thus (re)presenting Rosh Hashannah. Rosh Hashannah being the moment when God's creation is completed, thus the entry into the divine Shabbat, seemingly lasting the ninefold days up to Yom Kippur, which is called the Shabbat of all Shabbats. First I found it strange that it was not the seventh day after 25th Elul that presented the Shabbat of Shabbats, before learning that it indeed was as I suspected. This seventh day, subconsequently reckonned, corresponded with the Fast of Gedalia. Before coming to terms, so to say, with the timing I found that the story of Gedalia in the Bible indicative of a long tradition for confusion and/or mystery in regard of this. The translation of the 2. book of Kings is pretty sad and confused, I think I can say, referring to the Norwegian Bible Company's 1978 edition. It seems that Gedalia's point was to say one should not be afraid of the Caldeans, among whom we allegedly find the cradle of calendrics and horoscopy (timereading, the science of prophecy). A protestantic-pietistic tradition have seemed eager to erase any trace of mystery, "jewishness", astrotheology, and so on, that's part of my interest in the field, unveiling such aspects of our cultural and religious heritage. Diaphanously the biased negative stand of the bible translators in regard of Caldean notion is omitting. I'm curious of whether this notion is, as I think, pertaining especially to the Lutheran tradition, or how this is in other traditions of the Book. I'm also interested in discrepancies of views in regard of the timing of the Fast of Gedalia, and eventually the oath of Gedalia. I guess this had something to do with the motive behind the murder. Or may I ask, what is hold up as in regard of Ismaels motivation? It is a question of great interest also because of the mythic relieff of the muslim, more precisely arabic, jewish conflict; and especially in regard of the conflict of what day is the holiest day. Isn't it so that this story goes into the marrow of that controversy? --Xact (talk) 16:02, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Curiouser and curiouser 

message: there is no primary evidence that the assassination took place in the year of the destruction (586/7). the consensus of scholarship today maintains it took place around 580, some six years later. if you'd like to read the scholarship and cant find it on your own, ask. but dont change my edits, thankyouverymuch.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.114.7.2 (talk) 15:30, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  date of the assassination 

message: This article is now Fast of Gedalia with a spelling difference from Gedaliah. The two article should spell the name the same. But the two articles have so much overlap that I suggest that they should be merged. —Anomalocaris (talk) 08:38, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name and merge 

message: The entry fails to take into account both Jeremiah ch 52 and Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews Book X ch 9 which include the 'final tragic end' which is the real basis of the fast: namely, Nebuchadnezzar’s revenge.
In c.582 Nebuchadnezzar’s army returned to expand the empire by successfully conquering Egypt and, simultaneously, to punish those seen as involved in the murder of Gedalia. 
Ammon, the kingdom which had encouraged the assassination and gave shelter to the assassins once they had to flee, was conquered by Nebuchadnezzar’s army (Ant.X:9:7), Judah was overrun with an additional 745 Jews taken captive to Babylon (Jeremiah 52:30), and those who had fled to Egypt after the assassination were captured and sent off to Babylon (Ant. X:9:7).
Both Jeremiah and Josephus see Gedalia’s murder and its aftermath as the last step in a  broader national tragedy: one last, devastating Babylonian exile, and also the end of any – even partial – autonomy and self-rule under a Jewish leader. 
As Josephus states re: the aftermath of Gedalia's murder:
"And such was the end of the nation of the Hebrews; as it hath been delivered down to us. It having twice gone beyond Euphrates. For the people of the ten tribes were carried out of Samaria by the Assyrians, in the days of King Hoshea. After which the people of the two tribes, that remained after Jerusalem was taken, [were carried away] by Nebuchadnezzar, the King of Babylon and Chaldea.”
                                                                                            
That is the real end to Gedalia’s assassination account. 
It was also the context and tragedy that led to the establishment of the Fast of Gedaliah soon after 582 BCE. To remind us of the foolishness of hasty acts and of their unintended consequences: for Judaism, the Jewish people and Jewish 'independence'.
The Talmud’s explanation over 1000 years after the assassination and its repercussions: that the fast was to remind us of the “death of a righteous man”, simply does not fit.
There are only 4 ancient rabbinic fast days. And they are in actuality all related to each other and intertwined: the destruction of the Temples, the destruction of the national capital, Jerusalem, and the loss of Jewish Independence.
While the medieval rabbinic focus was on the 'religious'/Temple aspect, it has always been, in fact, a THREEFOLD LOSS.  Hence the belief that the messiah will be a descendant of King David, will rebuild and restore Jerusalem, and build the 3rd Temple.
10 b'Tevet - Siege of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar begins.
•	Resulting in the capital's devastation, end of Jewish kingship and full independence, mass exile and destruction of Solomon's Temple.
17 b'Tammuz - Walls of Jerusalem are breached by the Romans.  (The Jerusalem Talmud states the Babylonians also breached the walls on this same day.)
•	Leading to the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 CE. 
•	Simultaneously, Jerusalem was laid waste and plowed under, and a Roman legion was encamped there.
The Bar Kochbah revolt of 132-136 CE was in part triggered by fears the Romans were planning to rebuild Jerusalem as a pagan city.  Emperor Hadrian did exactly that after the failed revolt.  Jerusalem became Aelia Capitolina and the Temple mount the site of a temple to Jupiter.
Fast of Gedalia is part and parcel of the above tragic cycle of events: the end of any form of Jewish 'self-rule' or 'control' over Judah.
Put simply, the ancient rabbis did not institute a rare fast -- the Fast of Gedalia -- because one 'righteous' Jew was killed.
≈≈≈≈  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:2340:83C:4536:A0F1:1A76:DC17 (talk) 20:49, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing from the Fast of Gedalia entry