Talk:Allegory of the cave

message: The article should make it clear that "Plato" never speaks directly to the readers in The Republic.  It is the character of Socrates, whose relation to the historical figure of Socrates is a matter of scholarly debate.
And in quoting the source it should be made clear just what translation is being quoted.  For example that last large block quote is not like any translation that I have seen, its wording is quite different from Jowett (for example) and I cannot find phrases from it in Waterfield (the two translators mentioned at the top) .. So where is that "quote" taken from?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.165.128.76 (talk) 07:57, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made the "Plato to Socrates" changes requested in 2010 by the user with IP address 58.165.128.76. BobKilcoyne (talk) 05:55, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The article should be uniform in who is speaking instead of using both "Plato" and "Socrates" as a speaker in the article 199.217.33.62 (talk) 13:58, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Who is speaking?

message: I think that there is one contributor who insists on adding references to popular culture in these articles. He especially likes "The Matrix" movie. I found similar references in the Popper and Einstein articles. They greatly demean Wikipedia.
Lestrade 19:51, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes and no...perhaps such simplistic examples might help someone grasp the concept where they otherwise might not. Just an opinion... --Alcalde 19:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I must agree with Alcalde here. They would help some people who do not quite grasp it, to grasp it. Also on this note I think that a reference to Lemony Snickett's The Grim Grottois in order, it would also help explain things. I do not know how to word it... 71.31.233.16 01:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I concur.  It helps establish relevance of the concept for people ignorant of it.  It serves to educate readers which is the purpose of an encyclopedia.  It should stay.  --207.215.78.126 06:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Popular Culture

message: I've removed this text:
The novel, Anthem by Ayn Rand, also features a main character who leaves a tightly controlled but technologically backward society to learn that the world used to be more scientifically advanced. He discovers a twentieth century lightbulb that takes the place of the sun in Plato's allegory.
Ayn Rand disagreed strongly with Plato, and I've never heard anywhere that the discovery of the lightbulb was supposed to parallel Plato's allegory. LaszloWalrus 09:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ayn Rand

message: Why does this article contain a "spoiler warning"? It's an allegory! It isn't entertainment, and there isn't any real ending. It doesn't even have a plot. Because it is meant to illustrate a point or idea, and not for anything else, what is given away?
JA: It was partly, but not entirely, tongue-in-cheek.  The fact is that the contributor elected to present the allegory in a digested version of its original narrative form, and so it is appropriate to respect the time-honored protocols of storytelling.  The story does have a punchline, and not everybody seems to be aware of that, so the spoiler warning affords them the opportunity to go off and read the original for themselves before having somebody else tell them what it supposedly says.  Jon Awbrey 02:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Spoiler warning?

message: Is there a reason this feminist interpretation offered by Michael Roth has been deleted?
JA: NB.  Please sign and date discussion items with a ~~~~ at the end.
JA: I started out trying to copyedit this contribution on the assumption that it was a bona fide addition to the article, but it turned out to be:  (1) too poorly sourced to regard as reputable, (2) something in the nature of an attempt to use WP as a soapbox for airing personal grievances.  All of this goes against fundamental principles of what WP is and is not.  Jon Awbrey 02:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I'm concerned, you can stick it where the sun don't shine! (Sorry, I couldn't help it). 194.239.178.161 (talk) 15:34, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Vulvadentata

message: JA: I am removing the long list of trivia to the talk page for examination of their reasons for being included in the article on Plato's Allegory of the Cave.  The simple fact that somebody uses the word "cave" in a story, song, film, computer game, or wot not, is not sufficient reason to accord it mention here.  If there is something about that particular mention that throws a new light into Plato's Cave, then it needs to be articulated, argued, analyzed, and then evaluated for the bearing of that articulation on the main article, not just alluded to in passing like some piece of cocktail party chit-chat.  Jon Awbrey 03:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cavernous Trivia

message: Should we perhaps add in theoretical ones too? Meaning writers in philosophy, social theory, etc. that make extensive use of the cave allegory or base most of their argument on it? Latour's Politics of Nature comes to mind. Tparadis 03:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Artistic and literary spelunkers

message: * Pere Ubu's 1974 debut single includes the song "Heart of Darkness", which includes the lyric, "Maybe I'm nothing but a shadow on the wall". 
* Rush's album "2112" (1976) was inspired by the novel Anthem by Ayn Rand which in turn can be seen as a science fiction version of Plato's allegory of the cave. 
* The allegory of the cave is mentioned in the They Might Be Giants song, "No One Knows My Plan". 
* Plato's allegory of the cave is referenced in the Jack Johnson song, "Inaudible Melodies". 
*  John Lennon's song "Watching the Wheels" includes the lines "I tell them that I'm doing fine, watching shadows on the wall". 
* Blind Melon's song "Seed to a Tree" includes hints of leaving the cave for the outside world. 
*Jakatta song 'One Fine Day' contains the lyrics "caught between the sunlight and the cave, i must choose"
*Mumford and sons song 'The Cave" contains reference in the lyrics "come out of the cave walking on your hands and see the world dangling upside down..."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.75.74 (talk) 00:50, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Music

message: What I interpret is so simple the cave (underlying ark=life) is earth the walls like the jaded wall are dimensional+ propagandas blindness, the shadows are how we mold everything, the freed prisoner (appropriate DNA appropriate time) not only identified also identifying everything clarifying how they were being blinded from the truth by the tax collector (like present day) like (He’s us) who points out something more enlightening than the traditional routine.  Most indeed there would be havoc when the mass population realizes they have been seriously mislead.   This also contributes to our present day.Kisida 07:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uniquely our eyes behold  

message: I deleted the pic in the article. It's not at all a reflection of the cave; it has only one person (as opposed to a crowd), who is standing (not chained) at the mouth of the cave (not deep inside) watching his own shadow (not that of puppets) as cast by the outside light (not an internal flame). Korossyl 18:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ill-explained? In what sense? I would claim that the article is not on the same level as the diagram was and I believe this is not diagram's fault. --193.40.5.245 20:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, that's possible. For instance, the article makes no mention of the pond (I don't remember if that was in the text or not). But, for instance, what are the various letters? Why are there lines connecting them? This is kinda important info, for a pic like that. It's a diagram without any key or legend, and as such, severely impaired in its usefulness. Korossyl 04:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You can read about the movements between stages in the article now and that's what the lines and letters are for. The pond is mentioned in the allegory (i'm not sure if it's mentioned in article, probably not) where Socrates speaks about reflections of things in water or on other solid objects. You can of course draw this as as a pond or as a sea, that's artists decision, like the decision to mark different people with hats or with a crown and throne... Do You think the picture would be okay if article explained the things represented there? --193.40.5.245 07:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think the picture would be GREAT. I think the caption should also have a legend, if possible. And the hats are pretty awesome. Korossyl 19:47, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture Removal 

message: The Allegory of the Cave is also known as the Allegory of the Den. Is that important? Omniii 21:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternate Title 

message: This doesn't exactly pertain to the article, but I think this would be as good a place as any to ask this kind of question: Why are texts such as The Republic and others so scarcely found in traditional education systems?  Sure, in philosophy class things such as that are to be expected, but in my entire high school career, not a single philosophical idea was taught to the majority of us.  Those of us lucky enough to get one of the two English teachers who taught a bit of Plato were very glad of it, and can't believe that it isn't more often taught, let alone a requirement.
While I'd like to believe I wasn't a complete "dumb-dumb", believing everything I saw, I do know that I wasn't as enlightened as once a simple hour and a half lecture was finished on the Allegory of the Cave.  To take that even further, you could include the months which I spent thinking about the allegory, trying to make true sense out of it, and applying it to the things around me.  That short lecture changed my entire view on life and people.
If such a short and precise teaching of a piece of Plato's work, such as the Allegory of the Cave, can enlighten a person on such short notice, why isn't it taken up much more often?  Will it make the children too free in their thoughts (those which listen, of course) leading to future problems when they begin to truly question opinion?
I begin to think of myself as a madman as I type this out, with so many questions and so few answers to it all.  Also, of course, I could be completely wrong.  Perhaps it is the normal routine for philosophical texts to be taught in other high schools, however I know that in my school, suchs things rarely take place. --tj9991 (talk) 05:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Teaching of This Allegory and Others 

message: Who the puppeteers moving the objects are? It can't be the gods, after all. Anyone know? Ifnkovhg (talk) 06:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: From my understanding, the puppeteers are men just like you and me.  The difference is that they have chosen to manipulate those below them, rather than leave them be or attempt to help them see the burning truth.  The allegory can be interpreted in many ways, though... --tj9991 (talk) 15:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think maybe Plato didn't have any other way to express the idea that these objects were moving about. They didn't have motors and electronic timing devices in his time; the only way to move these objects in an intelligible way is to have people move them. If he were restating the allegory today, I think the objects would basically be animatronic. In other words, I believe that the key element is that the objects are fake; the people moving them in the allegory are unimportant. JWAbrams (talk) 17:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does any interpretation identify... 

message: Hi, this clearly means that Plato himself was clear with others that this dialogue was fictional.  If Plato never clarified this personally, but modern scholars consider the dialogue fictional then the word fictional should be removed as the sentence is stating what it was "written as" not what it is classified to be.  Of course if it's pretty universally considered fictional then this can be stated afterward.  I'm not a philosophy academic so i don't know whether Plato made any such clarification or not, but someone who knows (presumably the author of this section) should be asked and if necessary the section should be ammended. NickPriceNZ (talk) 07:05, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "It is written as a fictional dialogue between Plato's teacher Socrates and Plato's brother Glaucon"  

message: Image:Caverne.svg|Plato's Allegory of the Cave
How about adding this?  Or some other file from Commons.  - Benzband (talk) 09:49, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an entire Commons category on Allegory of the cave.  And this picture is used on the French Wikipedia article allégorie de la caverne.  But if it doen't meet the requirements, tough.  I was only trying to help.  - Benzband (talk) 15:29, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: I've moved this page back to what is the most commonly used name in a search on GBooks and GScholar. Anyone wanting to move it should start an RfC first. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 19:16, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undiscussed page move 

message: Hi, I'm a part of a student project for a class at Colgate University and am new to Wikipedia.  We have studied Plato and other ancient thinkers and our aim in the next few days is to make Wikipedia entries relating to them more accessible and helpful to the general population.  I welcome any thoughts and comments that anyone might have about any of the changes I might make.  The goal is to spread knowledge, and feedback always makes that easier!
Jbomb482 (talk) 02:41, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Student Project 

message: The article is part of 3 wikiprojects, all of which are part of the start-class. In order to have a higher rating, this article will definitely need more reliable sources. I did click on several links and references that were provided, they did work, however they turned out to be other wikipedia pages.Obviously information from Wikipedia can be added by anyone so if most references are from other wikipedia articles, it is unknown if one can fully trust the article. To make this article better quality, more primary, reliable sources need to be included. Also, this article has several edits and excerpts on the talk page but very few details about the interpretations of Plutos Allegory of the Cave. This article lacks depth and is very much confusing and contradicting in various places. For example, the article states that all the prisoners were freed at once from the cave, however, mr prior knowledge showed only one slave escaping which was a large part in understanding the allegory.  As I was scrolling through the talk page I noticed several negative comments about the article. People seemed to think the content and grammar were not up to parr. Interpretations of what Pluto meant by the allegory alongside what the actual allegory was would be an important addition to this article. This article explains the allegory but doesn't represent all sides of what people may think. Another downside of this article was that it did not start with an overview. At the end there was a summary that stated only one prisoner escaped in Plutos story. This contradicted what the author had stated earlier in the Departure from he cave section, which confused me very much. I definitely think this article can use more detail, description and examples of how this allegory can be represented. I did like how this article included photos, these visuals make it easier to understand just how the prisoners felt in the cave.
Sarahrycenga (talk) 06:52, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evaluating article 

message: The symbolism section needs more (than one) citations. Furthermore, I failed to verify the information in the section with its (singular) referenced source. See: WP:CITE. Below are my suggestions as to which sources may be reliable. Could anyone with a background in classics, philology, or philosophy please review these articles?
Talib1101 (talk) 00:04, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Symbolism 

message: “ while the objects under the sun represent the true forms of objects that we can only perceive through reason”
What does “under the sun” mean? My best guess is that the author wrote it as if the sun were the source of light for the shadows casted, instead of the fire mentioned previously in the paragraph. 
I’m not sure enough to change it though, so I’m leaving the article as-is for now. UsersLikeYou (talk) 22:46, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thoroughly confused by a possible typo 

message: “ Three higher levels exist: the natural sciences; mathematics, geometry, and deductive logic; and the theory of forms.”
So is it three or four?
 I’m not versed on reason enough to edit it either way.
Secondly, three levels of what? I understand ‘reason’ is intended here, and mentioned in the sentence prior, but it still took me a second to put the two into together. UsersLikeYou (talk) 22:52, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glaring incongruity 

message: we could also say that the cave represents the comfort zone of isolated beliefs that the man aka the prisoner in the cave accepted without justification if we implement this theory in politics this would be the mere illusionary perspective provided by the people who run the state [not every state of course ,a state that work only for self interest ] and the people accepted it as reality Syeda ayat (talk) 16:05, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  the comfort zone