Talk:Alcoholic drinks in China

message: Move to Chinese wine? --Jiang
:When I wrote this initially, I tried to use the native names, e.g. Yuk Bing Shiu is a rice wine originated in the south, most likely in Canton.  I used its Cantonese name.  But someone changed it into Mandarin.  It is okay either way, but shouldn't names be left in their native pronunciation?  Kowloonese 20:06, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: no, the Cantonese shouldnt be replaced. it should be in both forms, separated by a slash --Jiang 20:50, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Move to [[Chinese wine]]?

message: What is the thought about having each wine (or at least the major ones) in a separate article?  Like European wines are in Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon, etc.?  Badagnani 15:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In all other forein versions, distilled types and fermented types are separate. I think at least this article should be separated into two.210.196.67.37 09:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a separate issue.  I am uncertain now whether mijiu might actually be distilled also, then diluted.  The bottle of cooking mijiu I just bought says that it's "distilled rice wine."  Badagnani 22:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding is that "white liquor" can be both distilled and made "as is", where as "yellow liquor" (red and black also exist) is only "as is". Addition of herbs and spices can be done pre and post fermentation and also after distillation. Each of these vary with the type and brand of liquor. As for the actual manufacturing process, very little information exists on this topic in both english and chinese web sources (The information I entered is gleaned from Japanese sites). What is known is that the production technique/process is similar to the way Japanese and Korean liquors are made, with the inclusion of certain herbs, spices, or fermenting microbes. Some chinese liquors are also fortified with other liquors (in the sense that European port is fortified wine). Some manufacturers also have an interesting habit of fortifying their "natural" liquor with industrial ethanol, which, while not exactly toxic is still not a pleasant thought. I do see this article splitting or budding out in the future, but first more information and sources are needede. Sjschen 05:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!  Do you by chance know the characters for "hung lu jiu" (maybe not the right pinyin), a red-colored (and bad-smelling, IMO) cooking wine that is one grade below shaoxingjiu?  Kowloonese was asking about it below.  Badagnani 06:11, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not a big fan of Chinese rice wines, most likely because I have not been exposed it extensively. As such I have not really paid much attention to what's out there. I do think Ihave seen "huang lu jiu" before but I have never tried it. Sjschen 06:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate articles? 

message: This text is found in the sake article.  Can it be added (if correct) to this article?
:"Chinese millet wine, xǐao mǐ jǐu (小米酒), made the same way, is mentioned in inscriptions from the 14th century BC as being offered to the gods in religious rituals."  Badagnani 10:01, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Xiaomi jiu

message: This text was just removed from the Maotai article but belongs here, if accurate.  Is any of this useful?  Badagnani 22:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Was going to write something like that, it sounds good. Sjschen 21:40, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: [Removed], since incorporated into article. — LlywelynII 09:23, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "New" information 

message: Sjschen, here's another possible classification system that you might want to add if it's legit.  Courtesy of Kowloonese:
:Apparently, Chinese wine can be classified by their fragrances. Googling 酱香酒 found me a page talking about different Chinese wine categories: 中国酒的香型也很多，主要有以茅台为代表的酱香酒 (sauce fragrance)，以泸州老窖为代表的浓香酒 (heavy fragrance)，以山西汾酒为代表的清香酒 (light fragrance)，还有米香型 (rice fragrance)、蜂香型 (Honey fragrance) 等等，这些酒都是蒸溜酒. See also  for more on the fragrance classification. Not sure what "sauce" really mean, but I don't think it is related to cooking though.  Kowloonese 00:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No idea, will do some research. Sjschen 19:59, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 烧酒 is a common misused term. In reality it should only be used for strong liquors that have been distilled to have such a high alcohol percentage for it to burn in the atmosphere. If a "liquor" (酒) can not "burn" (烧), then it can not be called 烧酒. However it seems nothing can stop the ignorant from calling almost any type of liquor as 烧酒. Usally in order for a liquor to burn, it must have more than 40% alcohol in it. Its high burning sensation is caused by the high level of alcohol in it and not by anything else. The real reson why you can not find liquors that come with such a strong burning sensation as that of which is give off by the 烧酒 is because it just don't have enough alcohol in it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.239.237 (talk) 08:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We really need more expertise on this one. Benjwong (talk) 16:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Another classification system?

message: Great work, Sjschen and all others.  Do you think this article qualifies as a "good article" yet?  Badagnani 21:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Getting there, but still quite far. Maybe we should focus more on tofu to get it to “good article”, if not featured :) Sjschen 21:59, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good article 

message: Can someone tell me the third character in this wine's name?  photo Badagnani 19:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Found it.  Badagnani 19:54, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need Chinese character help 

message: Can someone define this? 碧綠酒 The first character is hard because it can mean several different things. Badagnani 07:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My guess is emerald/jade green wineSjschen 23:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition? 

message: I believe that this article should be moved back to wine as was discussed much earlier in this talk section. -Vcelloho 00:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Move Back To Wine

message: Move. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Tally in the discussion - Support : Oppose = 7 : 2 --Appletrees (talk) 00:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

text: * I've seen sake referred as "Japanese wine" (not Japanese "rice" wine) in the mentioned standard, so there would be Chinese wine in the same manner. --Appletrees (talk) 23:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's funny.  I am a big sake drinker and I've never seen it referred to that way.  Where have you seen that?  Alexwoods (talk) 14:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - Using singular "Chinese alcoholic beverage" is very, very bad, as it would appear from such a title that there is only one Chinese alcoholic beverage. Badagnani (talk) 20:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's correct, the singular sounds funny.  "Chinese alcohol" would be better, in my opinion, as would "Chinese alcoholic beverages".  Alexwoods (talk) 20:14, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - "Chinese alcohol" would refer to the chemical (such as rubbing alcohol. Badagnani (talk) 21:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so.  Alcohol often refers to what we drink - hard alcohol, calling someone an alcoholic, etc.  Also, it's technically correct, whereas "wine" is not.  However, I'd be happiest with "Chinese alcoholic beverages".  Alexwoods (talk) 21:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree that "Chinese alcohol reminds of the chemical produced in China". --Appletrees (talk) 23:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, let's call it "Chinese alcoholic beverages" then.  Alexwoods (talk) 14:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - "Liquor" does generally refer only to distilled alcoholic beverages, and not to fermented ones (except in rare instances like chocolate liquor, which has no alcohol). Badagnani (talk) 07:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - Please read all discussion before commenting. Rice wine has already been mentioned as a form of wine that is made from neither grape nor fruit. Badagnani (talk) 18:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment - Of course I read all the comments, which should be quite obvious from the explanation I provided. Why would I otherwise bother to explain why various fruit wines are never referred to as wine collectively? That wine is fermented grape juice can be read in e.g. the Wikipedia article on wine and this use of the plain "wine" term is well established since several centuries, and is never applied in any other way in any professional or semi-professional setting I've encountered. (BTW, "rice wine" is also a case of another bad translation, since the production process has more in common with beer production, since it is based on starch conversion rather than directly fermentable sugars, so it is a very poor counter-example, but that's another discussion.) Tomas e (talk) 20:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - It doesn't matter if you think rice wine is a "bad" term--it's extremely widely used in the English language, as is "Chinese wine" to refer to Chinese alcoholic beverages. Badagnani (talk) 20:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - It also appears that you did not read the comment just above that said, "You narrow down the definition of 'wine' to only alcoholic beverage made of grape. 'True wine' does not only refer to the wine, but also "the fermented juice of any of various other fruits or plants" according to the American Heritage[2] and Mirriam Webster Dictionary[3]," relying instead on what can only be described as wishful thinking. Badagnani (talk) 20:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment - this is getting repetitive.  As I think Kusunose pointed out, it's not a question of thinking that it's a bad term, but of whether it's an accurate translation, which it isn't - it's misleading and not distinguishable from grape-based drinks that are produced in China.  Also, the term is hardly widely used in the English language, unless you mean the English language as used by Chinese-speaking English-language learners, or as used on poorly-translated menus.  Alexwoods (talk) 20:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - Rice wine is a standard English term, used by all English speakers in all regions of the world when referring to sake and similar beverages. Badagnani (talk) 20:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment - I would think the term 'rice wine' would be an example of 'additional mentioning of source'.  Alexwoods (talk) 19:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - The actual English term for wines from China are "rice wine," "sorghum wine," etc., with the catch-all heading being "Chinese wine." Badagnani (talk) 19:04, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - This is the first mention I've seen of retaining the "colloquial stuff" (i.e., the use of "Chinese wine" to refer, in English, to both fermented and distilled grain alcoholic beverages) in the lead. If this is done, the move to "Chinese alcoholic beverages" might be okay. However, the article would then have to include at least a brief mention of Chinese beer (with probably a "Main article:" link to Chinese beer). Badagnani (talk) 00:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Any additional comments:
A little background.  When User:Alexwoods says, "I would go so far as to say that the term 'Chinese wine' is Chinglish, menu English, and I would be shocked to see it in print in the West", he has come pretty close to the case here.  The term "wine" is commonly used by non-native Chinese speakers of English to refer to jiǔ and this can be credited to a shortcoming of English: the lack of a concise term for all alcoholic drinks/beverage.  However, it is misleading to the vast majority of native and non-native English speaking Wikipedia users who are not familiar with this usage whether they assume wine to (narrowly) mean grape wine or (widely) mean any fermented drink.  The existence of the Wine in China article dealing with true wines should attest to that. —  AjaxSmack  19:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Move to [[Chinese alcoholic beverages]]

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Tally in the discussion - Support : Oppose = 7 : 2 --Appletrees (talk) 00:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: * I've seen sake referred as "Japanese wine" (not Japanese "rice" wine) in the mentioned standard, so there would be Chinese wine in the same manner. --Appletrees (talk) 23:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's funny.  I am a big sake drinker and I've never seen it referred to that way.  Where have you seen that?  Alexwoods (talk) 14:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - Using singular "Chinese alcoholic beverage" is very, very bad, as it would appear from such a title that there is only one Chinese alcoholic beverage. Badagnani (talk) 20:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's correct, the singular sounds funny.  "Chinese alcohol" would be better, in my opinion, as would "Chinese alcoholic beverages".  Alexwoods (talk) 20:14, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - "Chinese alcohol" would refer to the chemical (such as rubbing alcohol. Badagnani (talk) 21:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so.  Alcohol often refers to what we drink - hard alcohol, calling someone an alcoholic, etc.  Also, it's technically correct, whereas "wine" is not.  However, I'd be happiest with "Chinese alcoholic beverages".  Alexwoods (talk) 21:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree that "Chinese alcohol reminds of the chemical produced in China". --Appletrees (talk) 23:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, let's call it "Chinese alcoholic beverages" then.  Alexwoods (talk) 14:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - "Liquor" does generally refer only to distilled alcoholic beverages, and not to fermented ones (except in rare instances like chocolate liquor, which has no alcohol). Badagnani (talk) 07:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - Please read all discussion before commenting. Rice wine has already been mentioned as a form of wine that is made from neither grape nor fruit. Badagnani (talk) 18:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment - Of course I read all the comments, which should be quite obvious from the explanation I provided. Why would I otherwise bother to explain why various fruit wines are never referred to as wine collectively? That wine is fermented grape juice can be read in e.g. the Wikipedia article on wine and this use of the plain "wine" term is well established since several centuries, and is never applied in any other way in any professional or semi-professional setting I've encountered. (BTW, "rice wine" is also a case of another bad translation, since the production process has more in common with beer production, since it is based on starch conversion rather than directly fermentable sugars, so it is a very poor counter-example, but that's another discussion.) Tomas e (talk) 20:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - It doesn't matter if you think rice wine is a "bad" term--it's extremely widely used in the English language, as is "Chinese wine" to refer to Chinese alcoholic beverages. Badagnani (talk) 20:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - It also appears that you did not read the comment just above that said, "You narrow down the definition of 'wine' to only alcoholic beverage made of grape. 'True wine' does not only refer to the wine, but also "the fermented juice of any of various other fruits or plants" according to the American Heritage[2] and Mirriam Webster Dictionary[3]," relying instead on what can only be described as wishful thinking. Badagnani (talk) 20:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment - this is getting repetitive.  As I think Kusunose pointed out, it's not a question of thinking that it's a bad term, but of whether it's an accurate translation, which it isn't - it's misleading and not distinguishable from grape-based drinks that are produced in China.  Also, the term is hardly widely used in the English language, unless you mean the English language as used by Chinese-speaking English-language learners, or as used on poorly-translated menus.  Alexwoods (talk) 20:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - Rice wine is a standard English term, used by all English speakers in all regions of the world when referring to sake and similar beverages. Badagnani (talk) 20:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment - I would think the term 'rice wine' would be an example of 'additional mentioning of source'.  Alexwoods (talk) 19:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - The actual English term for wines from China are "rice wine," "sorghum wine," etc., with the catch-all heading being "Chinese wine." Badagnani (talk) 19:04, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment - This is the first mention I've seen of retaining the "colloquial stuff" (i.e., the use of "Chinese wine" to refer, in English, to both fermented and distilled grain alcoholic beverages) in the lead. If this is done, the move to "Chinese alcoholic beverages" might be okay. However, the article would then have to include at least a brief mention of Chinese beer (with probably a "Main article:" link to Chinese beer). Badagnani (talk) 00:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: :Any additional comments:
A little background.  When User:Alexwoods says, "I would go so far as to say that the term 'Chinese wine' is Chinglish, menu English, and I would be shocked to see it in print in the West", he has come pretty close to the case here.  The term "wine" is commonly used by non-native Chinese speakers of English to refer to jiǔ and this can be credited to a shortcoming of English: the lack of a concise term for all alcoholic drinks/beverage.  However, it is misleading to the vast majority of native and non-native English speaking Wikipedia users who are not familiar with this usage whether they assume wine to (narrowly) mean grape wine or (widely) mean any fermented drink.  The existence of the Wine in China article dealing with true wines should attest to that. —  AjaxSmack  19:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: This article talk page was automatically added with  banner as it falls under :Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . Maximum and careful attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories , but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 00:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:FOOD]] Tagging

message: * Much, much more on the history, philology, and science of the development of Chinese alcohol can be found here, although it's only a partial view, so individual editors will only be able to read certain blocks of text. All the same, if you're interested in the subject, feel free to search the book. If you could, then add the appropriate info to the article. — LlywelynII 09:23, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources for article expansion

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Chinese alcoholic beverages. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090215013857/http://wines-info.com:80/Newshtml/200812/2282008123011241759.html to http://www.wines-info.com/Newshtml/200812/2282008123011241759.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 09:31, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Chinese alcoholic beverages. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130927141238/http://crlao.ehess.fr/docannexe.php?id=1207 to http://crlao.ehess.fr/docannexe.php?id=1207
*Added archive https://archive.is/20130105085136/http://www.wines-info.com/en/ to http://www.wines-info.com/en/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:36, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Chinese alcoholic beverages. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070110202752/http://home.hkstar.com/~chnwine/111.html to http://home.hkstar.com/~chnwine/111.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060624155244/http://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/cuisine_drink/alcohol/classification.htm to http://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/cuisine_drink/alcohol/classification.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061018150214/http://www.shanghaifinance.com/food/chinesewine.php to http://shanghaifinance.com/food/chinesewine.php
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20020708081901/http://www.sytu.edu.cn/zhgjiu/umain.htm to http://www.sytu.edu.cn/zhgjiu/umain.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:24, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified