Talk:BACH motif

message: Just for the reassurance of anybody who happens upon one of the dodgy websites I found while writing this: the article here is right - "B" is "B flat" and "H" is "B natural", not the other way round. --Camembert — Preceding undated comment added 01:52, 12 March 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Damn right it is!!!! :) Nevilley 19:15 Mar 16, 2003 (UTC)
On another note, I found a webpage which said there were works by Rheinberger and Karg-Elert based on BACH, and Grove says that Rimsky-Korsakov and (if I remember correctly) D'Indy used it. Anybody happen to know what those works are? I'm sure there are lots of other examples as well, I just mention these ones because the composers are pretty well known, and I'd be interested to find out myself. --Camembert — Preceding undated comment added 01:52, 12 March 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: B, H, and Bb

message: Do we really need this in the article:
:In many pieces, while the exact notes B-A-C-H are not played, a transposition of the motif is used (a note sequence with the same intervals: down a semitone, up a minor third, down a semitone).
I mean, if the motif has been transposed, it's not the Bach motif any more, is it? It's the FEGGes motif or whatever. Also, what are these "several other pieces" by Bach that use the BACH motif? It would be good to list them here if possible. --Camembert — Preceding undated comment added 16:41, 19 October 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, found one of them, the Vom Himmel Hoch canonic variations, BWV 769 (see talk:The Art of Fugue). It'd still be good to have a list if anyone can provide. (On reflection, incidentally, I don't really mind that sentence I've quoted above.) --Camembert — Preceding undated comment added 13:11, 27 December 2003 (UTC)

text: The last paragraph of the BACH motif#Johann Sebastian Bach section (about Cumming commenting on Kivy commenting on Eggebrecht commenting on Bach) is still not OK: I added links to accessible relevant texts as much as possible, but the current paragraph in the Wikipedia article seems far from an adequate summary on the topic. Afaics Eggebrecht is mostly commenting on the final subject of the final fugue of The Art of Fugue, while Cumming only mentions the end of the fourth fugue explicitly... so I didn't rewrite the prose yet while it's not yet completely clear to me whether these authors weren't partially commenting next to each other. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:50, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Transposition

message: Is it worth mentioning Douglas Hofstadter, who devoted some attention to this phenomenon in Gödel, Escher, Bach? JFW | T@lk 13:21, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would think so.  Supposedly, Bach fell ill and died almost immediately after writing it in.  I assume this story has factual backing, and it would be nice to see it on Bach's page and/or this one. -MescalineBanana 06:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hofstadter 

message: Carl Nielsen has composed at least one longer work with a motif spelling the surname of a fellow Danish composer:  (Niels) G-A-D-E.  (The name of the piece escapes me, but I read this detail in an album liner years ago.) ISNorden 00:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Liner notes often contain fascinating tidbits, but I've never heard about this one.  I'm compiling a list of "tributes" from one composer to another, and this would certainly qualify if it was true.  I've found nothing about it on Google or elsewhere.  JackofOz 00:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Danish example of "composer's name" motif 

message: Dear Wikispherians,
For some years I've been dissatisfied with the inclusion of the graphic titled "BACH signature cross" on this page.  In that interval I've searched for, but found no evidence that, the composer himself used it.  As Bach evidently never "signed" his work in this way, the term "signature cross" is therefore misleading.
While I would love to believe that the graphic is somehow connected with the composer, the evidence points to the contrary.  Two years ago, being sufficiently curious about the symbol, I wrote to Professor Ulrich Prinz, the Scientific Director of the Internationale Bachakademie Stuttgart (where the graphic is used on the website), who graciously replied as follows.  I trust that he will not mind my quoting his reply, in part.
Thank you for your question from 11 Jun 2005 about the cross graphic on our website. There exists no document that Johann Sebastian Bach did use himself this symbol as a cross graphic. I have never found anything about this symbol in the early biographies of J. N. Forkel, K. H. Bitter, J. P. Spitta, A. Schweitzer etc. The first example, where I have found the symbol was an "ex libris" of 1934 and another in a church-glass-window in Dessau, built in 1950 (discovered and taken a photo by my colleague Holger Schneider in 1994).
 
In "The New Grove" is only written something about the existence of this symbol, but nothing about the inventor, neither the earliest year of invention nor the country.
In view of Professor Prinz's reply, I recommend that the "BACH signature cross" graphic either be deleted, or its provenance, so far as we know it, accurately labeled.  I defer to others more in contact with this article to make the actual changes.
Tim Smith
(aka "fugueman")  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.223.209.179 (talk) 16:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your comment. I always wondered where that came from, wondering if somebody just made it up here. It's nice to know they didn't, but to clarify that its invention apparently has nothing to do with Bach himself. It may be worth keeping in the article if it's mentioned in the New Grove, but I tried to clarify its uncertain provenance in the caption. Rigadoun  (talk) 17:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

text: It also appears in Grove V (published 1954) in their article "Cryptography, Musical", where it's described as "the well-known German rebus on Bach's name".  I also noticed it when watching the documentary Elgar's Enigma: Biography of a Concerto (a 2006 New Zealand production, broadcast on ABC TV in Australia on 24 August 2008).  It was not about the Enigma Variations, but about the hidden messages in and motives behind the Cello Concerto.  A lovely and moving film.  At one stage, some of Elgar's early childhood writings and compositions were shown, and the Bach cross was there in Elgar's hand, in plain view.  There was no suggestion that Elgar himself created the cross ab initio, so it must have been around well before he was born (1857).  I thought of writing an article on the BACH cross, but am also having some trouble finding sources to identify who created it, and when. --  JackofOz (talk) 23:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "BACH Signature Cross" ???

message: I think the mentioned signature motif from Arnold Schönberg is wrong, he used A-D-Es-C-H-B-E-G (Arnold Schönberg), that's A, D, Eflat, C, Bnatural, Bflat, E, G. But the only citation I have on that is my transcript from my music lessons back in school.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.3.42.11 (talk) 21:46, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arnold Schönbergs signature motif 

message: A, D, A, A, F for Jehan Alain, used by Maurice Duruflé in his Prélude et Fuge sur le nom d'Alain (op. 7). 
: Comment: This needs some explanation, and a cite.  It seems to me that Duruflé is mixing up some of the letters from Alain's name (A, A, A; but he ignores the E) with the D and F from his own name.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I think I've worked it out.  He uses ABCDEFGH as the basis of his schema, then makes I=A, J=B, K=C, L=D, M=E, N=F etc.  ALAIN then becomes ADAAF.  I wonder why he didn't go the whole hog and convert JEHAN ALAIN to BEHAF ADAAF (B flat, E, B natural, A, F, A, D, A, A, F).  It still needs a cite, though, that explains this schema, because otherwise it's OR (or, if you like, GB).  --  JackofOz (talk) 00:59, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And Ravel seems to have taken a similar but slightly different approach with his Menuet sur le nom de Haydn, which he treats as HADDG.  In this case, his schema was ABCDEFG.  K, R and Y are all represented by D, and N and U are represented by G.  Being totally consistent would mean that H comes out as A, but he uses H from the German notation (Haydn being Germanic) to represent our B natural.  Once again, this is just my take on what the letters represent, and it's still OR (or, in this case, AD). --  JackofOz (talk) 01:10, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Duruflé and Alain

message: The article currently states "Perhaps because it was used by Bach himself in a fugue, the motif is often used by other composers in fugues or other complex contrapuntal writing."  First this seems to me to be either an original speculation or simply needs a citation.  Also, it seems rather silly.  Bach used the motif in other places such as the St. Matthew Passion as mentioned in the article.  Furthermore, Bach is known primarily for his fugues and other contrapuntal works, which is why other composers honor him with such.  To say it's because he used it in one particular fugue strikes me as specious at best.  I vote that barring a citation (in which case we can reword it to "Name speculates that perhaps because...") we remove this line or change it substantially.  Comments? NeverWorker (Drop me a line) 03:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your arguments and suggest we remove the statement entirely. --Jashiin (talk) 20:21, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reason it's used in fugues 

message: I suggest removing the bit about Sweelinck. First of all, it refers to that composer's Fantasia in A Phrygian (Dirksen 14), the theme of which is not B flat, A, C, B natural, but A, A, A, G, B flat, A, C, B natural, B flat, A. Does that really count as an instance of the BACH motif? I don't think so. Furthermore, I notice that the bit about Sweelinck paying homage to a member of the Bach family, which I removed a year ago, has been inserted back. This is simply too far-fetched, because Sweelinck died in 1621, long before the Bach family gained such prominence as to impress composers in other countries. Any opinions? --Jashiin (talk) 20:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the mention. Would've done it earlier, but completely forgot about this page. --Jashiin (talk) 17:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sweelinck 

message: Works which prominently feature the BACH motif include:
*1911 - Carl Nielsen: Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, Op. 33, FS 61
*1932 - Arthur Honegger: Prélude, Arioso, Fughette for piano (later arranged for string orchestra)
*1932 - Albert Roussel: Prelude and Fugue for piano
*1952 - Luigi Dallapiccola: Quaderno musicale di Annalibera for piano / Variations for orchestra
*1952 - Luigi Dallapiccola: "Quaderno muisicale di Annalibera"
*1954 - Luigi Dallapiccola: "Variazioni" (orchestral version of "Quaderno musicale di Annalibera")
*1951-55 - Luigi Dallapiccola: "Canti di liberazione"
*1968 - Alfred Schnittke: Sonata No. 2 for Violin and Piano "Quasi una sonata" in a single movement
*1976 - Alfred Schnittke: Piano Quintet / In Memoriam for orchestra
*1984-1988 - Louis Andriessen: De Materie
*1985 - José Antônio Rezende de Almeida Prado - Concerto Fribourgeois for piano and strings. Toccata.
*1985 - Alfred Schnittke: Concerto Grosso No. 3
*1990s - Ron Nelson: Passacaglia (Homage on B-A-C-H) for wind ensemble 
*Arnold Schoenberg's Variations for Orchestra (1926-28) and his String Quartet No. 3 (1927)
*Krzysztof Penderecki's St. Luke Passion
*Johannes Brahms' cadenza for the first movement of Ludwig van Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 4
*Jason Bahr's Divergence for brass quintet (II. Fugue)
*the fifth and final movement of Leopold Godowsky's Piano Sonata in E minor (1910-11).
*1976 - Milos Sokola: Passacaglia quasi Toccata on B-A-C-H  for organ
The above uncited example where removed. Hyacinth (talk) 09:42, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Examples

message: Readded the examples from Luigi Dallapiccola's work, this time with citation to Raymond Fearn's 2003 book. Verified in original text.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Curryku (talk • contribs) 06:10, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dallapiccola 

message: Another example of the B-A-C-H motif in composition is the Modern Jazz Quartet's Blues on Bach. The album consists of a series of preludes and blues in the keys of B-flat, A, C, and B-natural, all arranged and composed by the MJQ's pianist John Lewis. The preludes are arrangements of well known Bach compositions, orchestrated for the quartet (piano, vibraphone, bass, drums). Following each prelude is a blues composed with the B-A-C-H motif transposed into each of the four keys. Blues on Bach is a prime example of what Gunther Schuller called "third stream" jazz, combining concepts from both European art music and African American jazz - a genre which consciously plays with the boundaries between inscribed composition and thematic improvisation. Would anyone object to the inclusion of this example? Pulamusic (talk) 17:51, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Jazz Quartet 

message: Most of the examples from mid XX century on are from non notable composers, and some of them without reference. I think this section should be cleaned.--90.171.35.37 (talk) 15:20, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I just removed three that had no Wikipedia article about them and nothing in Google except (pretty much) things the composers themselves had put up. I actually think the criteria for inclusion should be even stricter, maybe if no mention of the composer in Grove then no inclusion here, but I can't check myself just now because I've (temporarily, I hope) lost my access to Grove. TheScotch (talk) 05:34, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

text: I'd remove all unreliable sources, and all sources that fail to confirm that a composition contains the BACH motif, then remove all unsourced entries from the list. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:44, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of the motif from the 19th-century Bach Revival