Talk:Battle of the Dnieper/Archive 2

message: In front of some hopelessly narrow-minded people claiming that Ukrainian people are the greatest in the universe and that they would probably have already colonized Jupiter satellites without Russian occupation, that life in Ukraine under Nazi regime was true paradise, that their point of view prevails in front of Britannica and many other sources, that everyone is a pro-Soviet POV-pusher and so on, I requested and obtained the protection of this page.
Until a consensus is reached, and/or the mediation is requested and/or processed, this page gets locked.
I do not know about you guys, but I just can't stand spending half of my time monitoring this page instead of gathering evidence for new articles and writing them. 
I am patient, but only up to a certain point <_< -- Grafikm_fr (AutoGRAF) 15:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wiki is all about the monitoring ;) (Deng 15:42, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Up to a certain point only :) -- Grafikm_fr (AutoGRAF) 15:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: You know what as much as you are tauting the Ukrainian svidomy POVs, you are correct about them. If you read some of their fairytales you will get the same impression. Well said.--Kuban Cossack  19:09, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection of the page 

message: If the recent info added to Soviet_partisan#Major_battles is correct, might want to flesh out the partisan involvement here in operations "Rails War" and "Concerto". heqs 09:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's already in my to-do. I think Rails war should get a seperate article. And actually, there were IIRC 3 stages of it, not just in 1943... -- Grafikm_fr (AutoGRAF) 11:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Partisan contribution 

message: WHEREAS, "liberate" has been used historically, and continues to be used presently, to describe both this specific incident and other battles where Soviet forces drove back German invaders in WWII, as WP editors we are bound to use such conventions.
vs.
WHEREAS, "liberation" has been used historically to describe these battles, WP's NPOV policy trumps the need to adhere to mainstream or majority opinions on the matter.
----
:Well, let's start with the first disagreement. IMNSHO, using non-mainstream vocabulary (we're not talking about opinions here), is OR and as such should be forbidden per WP:NOR. Imagine if some Nazi dick would attempt to remplace "Killing" (in regard of the thousands of German feeble-minded people that were exterminated by Nazis) by "sanitization" or something like that because it's neutral. I think that everybody would go through the roof. Well, this case is no exception. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 22:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Kiev - one year ago--Kuban Cossack  22:12, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To weigh in ONLY on the first issue, whether "NPOV" trumps "Accepted Usage", I'd have to concur with Grafikm's argument. Neutrality is not the only policy to be considered. --Habap 14:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There has to be some basic ranking of the respective WP doctrines, otherwise all disputes would end in chaos. If I did not consider WP:NPOV as superior to other doctrines, then wouldn't I be forced to restate blatant POV arguments because of the preponderance of their usage? Frankly, considering WP:NPOV subservient to other doctrines renders it inert.--tufkaa 15:42, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think that in this context WP:NOR outweights WP:NPOV. Otherwise, we would be able to rewrite all WWII history from Suvorov's BS, for instance... -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 17:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: As it was already mentioned above by User:Mbuk, not all articles about WWII events in Ukraine use the word 'liberate', so if this word is not present in the article, it would not violate WP:NOR. On the other hand, using this word in the article does violate WP:NPOV. Using this word in "respected reference books" does not imply it's neutrality.--AndriyK 17:55, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: My person is not the subject of the discussion.--AndriyK 18:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not about your person. It is about how seriously your judgement of NPOV chould be taken. --Irpen 18:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disagreement #1