Talk:Novgorod case

message: Дорогие сообщники! Я хотела бы перевести секцию "Версию защиты". Сегодня вечером (американское время) переведу. С уважением, Ольга/ oliandy в ЖЖ / Olivshin 15:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions 

message: Как сделать ссылку на другую строчку внутри статьи? Например, Чадаев упоминается несколько раз, при первом упоминании сказано, кто он такой - было бы удобно дать ссылки из последующих мест в первое употребление.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snerrir (talk • contribs) 19:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  навигация внутри статьи 

message: Нет темплейта для "текущие события" (вроде эту коробочку попросили удалить, но запостите тут таг for our records).
Нет темплейта для ЖЖ-сообщества.
No template marking the article as following real-time events.
No template for coventional symbol for LJ-community.
:Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_messages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_messages/General#Timing-related_messages
Mirko Tomic 22:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  missing templates 

message: I deleted the patronimic "Bulatovna" from the article - if it remained, the English-speaking readers would have taken in for a last name. We should probably reinstate it, but then we need to know Ninel Bulatovna's last name.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snerrir (talk • contribs) 04:23, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe her name is not worse mentioning in this article at all. Shortcirquit 08:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antonina's mother last name 

message: Ladies and gentlement with keen eyes - please look for typos, I'm good at editing by not quite so good as spotting misprints.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snerrir (talk • contribs) 18:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  misprints 

message: The Russian source has a nice photo with Antonina, Alisa and a brithday cake there, how we can put it here too?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snerrir (talk • contribs) 18:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The photo was speedy deleted "as an obvious BLP violation, being an image of a living minor child crime victim", or even "under G10" which should mean it was unsourced and negative information. See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Images_and_media_for_deletion/2007_September_14#Image:Prolet_novgorodskoe_delo.jpg . Also, things have to be straightend out with the other photo, which is tagged as IFD 91.77.61.221 20:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

text: What does all this mean? For me, it sounds like a lot of acronyms without any sense. Would you like to be so kind as to spell it out?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snerrir (talk • contribs) 21:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As it was for me when I first encountered it. BLP a Wikipedia policy for Biographies of living persons: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=WP:BLP . G10 is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CSD#G10 . Anyway, G10 does not add any sence, since the photo was well-sourced and clearly positive. 91.77.61.221 21:42, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I found BLP, could you explain the rest (e.g., G10 is for me, again, Canada, US, Europe, Russia etc. and another two countries which are "great" and joined the club). BTW, isn't it an overprotective policy, this BLP, eh?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snerrir (talk • contribs) 21:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some interpreters of BLP certainly are ;) G10 is 10th General Criterium for speedy deletion , as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CSD#G10 91.77.61.221 21:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  LACKING Photo in the "version of the defence" section 

message: Hello everyone! We can see that this article has been edited quite a bit over the past days. It looks really good. However, some of this does not read clearly. Parts of this sound like a translation. To make it clear where we think our authority comes from: Olga Livshin is a native speaker of Russian and spoke English since she was four. Andrew Janco is a native speaker of English and has spoken Russian for ten years. We live in the US and are completing our Ph.D. degrees (Olga in Russian literature, Andrew in Russian history); both of us have published articles in English. We have collaborated on a series of translations from Russian, most recently for a bilingual anthology of contemporary Russian poetry. We realize that certain things may sound incorrect to you, but we would like to go through the text and tweak it a little in order to make the Wiki accessible and respectable to a native speaker. This is important to all of us, since we would like this Wiki to be a professional tool to those who may be able to get involved in the case.
We volunteered to go through the translation once it is completed on the novgorod_delo community, a few days ago. The users tucovic, decahedron and nornore, who we knew were collaborating on the Wiki -- agreed to this. See http://community.livejournal.com/novgorod_delo/119199.html?thread=1717919#t1717919
We realize that this text will change as events take place, but we would like to make an effort to make it sound as clear as possible.
Below are the principles of the changes we would like to make. Unfortunately, we can't explain every change because it will take too much time. If anything sounds strange to you, please feel free to take it up with us:
1) Several expressions strike us as not very idiomatic, for example:
* inquest -- "investigation" is commonly used for a criminal case. Compare, on the BBC site, an article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/somerset/6206364.stm
* ex-Fyodorova. This is an incorrect way of saying that Antonina's former name is Fyodorova. Usually, the functions of former last names are specified. For example, "Her name at the time of the incident was Fyodorova."
2) Style. We also find the current version to be overly conversational in some instances and overly formal in others. It is helpful to compare it to the style of an existing Wikipedia article about a famous case, for example, the Roe v. Wade case (which led to a landmark decision about abortion), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_vs._wade. 
Instances of inappropriately informal style: The Novgorod case Wiki states, "there's been an on-going discussion in the media." "There's" needs to become "there is."  Otherwise, it sounds like colloquial style, not the style of a Wikipedia article. In "So, after Ninel left...", "so,..." in the beginning of the sentence, is extremely informal.
Instances of overly formal stuff: currently, in parts of the article, certain members of the investigation are called "Mr." and "Mrs." followed by their last names. This is inappropriate as regards the style of an encyclopedia article. Compare with the Roe v. Wade article: it refers to a Justice Harry Blackmun when this person is introduced, and then simply calls him Blackmun.
3) Spelling. There are quite a few spelling errors in the text. We will run spell check on it.
These are the kinds of changes that we will make. Editing is in progress.
Olivshin 04:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While improving the style of the translation, please focus more on what is going to be said. Look, I had to change 'trial' for 'inquest' just because it was a factual error, no matter this was not idiomatic. Now, you type "Antonina's name was Fyodorova at the time of the crime".  There is no crime mentioned before that, moreover, we do not know whether it was a crime or not. Please excuse my English. Yours, 13-hedron 193.239.150.241 08:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you for these corrections, they are helpful.  Of course, we are all for factual accuracy.  Olivshin 18:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you :) 13-hedron 83.237.204.107 23:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing the Wiki, from [[User:Olivshin|Olivshin]] 05:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC) 

message: Was the attribution of the birthday photo to Martynov a credit or an encyclopedic fact? Shortcirquit 20:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Either way, our standard practice is to not include photo credit lines on images. The credit is listed on the image description page. — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, sir, I'm not asking whether we do or do not "include photo credit lines on images". The question was whether we treat it as a credit, and then we leave it out, or as a relevant fact, and then we bring it back and make it look less like a credit. Shortcirquit 17:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't see how it's any sort of encyclopedic fact; are you suggesting it should go into the article text? That would seem to giving a lot of weight to it. Does it really make a difference who took the picture? One would expect that a birthday picture was taken by a family member. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is what I was asking about. If you want my personal opinion, I would let the reader decide on their own whether to assume Martynov having been their family member a year ago or not, just because it is one of the key arguable points of the case. Shortcirquit 19:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't follow what you're saying there. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I help it somehow? Please try reading and understanding the article carefully. Shortcirquit 19:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I'm getting upset. Look, the investigator claims Fyodorova was single 'cause her marriage to Martynov was not registered or whatever. Martynovs claim otherwice. Can I judge between them? Shortcirquit 20:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand that dilemma, but I don't see what it has to do with the photo credit. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:04, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now, you assumed the photographer to be a family member. Martynov it the photographer. Martynov claims to be a family member and provides several photos as a proof of that. I'm not sure if such proof is somehow relevant. I'm not sure this is one of such photos. I am sure the original article contains such an attribution and I assume it serves some purpose there, other then being a credit to Martynov who is not in a condition to pay attention to photo credits right now. So I ask my question. Shortcirquit 20:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All I said is "one would assume the photo was taken by a family member". I was trying to explain why it isn't necessary for the article to go out of its way to emphasize who the photographer is. I don't know what the "original article" is (a blog article or the one on Russian wikipedia?), but whether there is a photo credit there is also not so important. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I did not ask for explainations, nor I've recieved any. I had to explain myself how could the attribution be in the way of this particular article instead. I was asking for opinions. Your opinion was evident however. And yes, I meant the Russian wiki. Shortcirquit 21:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "We don't do photo credits on articles" edit by CBM

message: Shouldn't we translate третий этаж as the 2nd floor and первый этаж as the ground floor?? --Yms 16:28, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a good question. In terms used in the UK and other European countries, indeed, she fell from the 2nd floor. In the Nortern American usage, the floor at the ground level is usually the first floor and the floor above is the second floor. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storey). The current edition follows the North American usage. We can discuss which audience we would prefer to reach, if we had to choose. I believe this discussion began on Livejournal already. 
The good news is that as of right now, the translation makes it clear that Alisa fell two stories, which makes it easy to understand where she was, factually speaking.Olivshin 17:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Floors 

message: We have finished editing the text. As it looks to us now, it is a serviceable translation that, with some patience, an English speaker can use to piece together the case.Olivshin 17:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Our Editing: Done 

message: Don't be crazy, they were just bruises. Shortcirquit 18:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  internal bleeding 

message: ...are not ready, it seems; it's just 1 letter and two blog references. Would anyone be able to complete them? We're out of time and must get back to our work. Olivshin 18:20, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done mostly by Snerrir Shortcirquit 10:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: We had "write" not "wrote" because the expression "to have somebody do something" requires the infinitive of a verb. For example:
* "I had her write down the formula and gave it to Chanelle when I got home." - from the " Chicago Tribune "
: http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/columnists/advice/chi-0706abbyjul06,1,910870.column
* "Helen's therapist asked the following questions, then had her write her responses in new triangles for her list." From Cognitive Therapy for Challenging Problems: http://books.google.com/books?id=R5tABNIJAWcC&pg=PA287&lpg=PA287&dq=%22had+her+write%22&source=web&ots=r2Kc2SeZs_&sig=GIbg0ncVXg8Swz3vFTWXVVhmh9Q
You changed "write" to the past tense. Olivshin 19:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  No problem :) Olivshin 20:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  had Antonina WROTE (Shortcirquit's edition) 

message: Five flights of stairs then, cuz "а flight is an uninterrupted series of steps" (Stairway), or two floors down.  Shortcirquit 08:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  fell two flights of stairs down 

message: Мартынов уже давно не Хвиль, а кмартынов Vypolzen2 (talk) 21:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  кстати 

message: The translation now is serviceable, but still a trainwreck.  Can someone with an understanding of this case go through and bring it up to Wikipedia quality?  24.150.143.26 (talk) 10:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaning up the translation 

message: The timeline of this article ends in August 2008, with official retrieval of Mrs. Martynova was announced in Novgorod region, on August 18 it was announced at the federal level. I'm not sure what that means - should it say retrial? - but in any case, the sudden stop makes for an odd read. What's happened in this case since the conviction in 2008? Have there been any further developments or continuing media attention? An update to the article is badly needed.
(It could also do with being rewritten to be more like an encyclopaedic article, rather than just a timeline and a list of for-and-against arguments, but that's another matter.) Robofish (talk) 23:17, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update needed 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:55, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 10 external links on Novgorod case. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:36, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Novgorod case. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080715100433/http://d1.hse.ru/lingua/en/about.html to http://d1.hse.ru/lingua/en/about.html
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:36, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018)