Talk:Manx cat/Archive 1

message: ok, first off, you are both fairly new to wikipedia. you have both asked different outside people for help, maybe you should take the problem to the mediation committee. this whole things seems to stem from whether or not manx syndrome exists, and if it is still prevelant in the breed. from what i've read, yes, it exists, but no, it's not as common as it once was. just let the article say that. i'm not terribly good at dispute resolution, so the MC is probably a good idea if you can't sort it out yourselves. on a side note, i removed the link to your site, Karello, because linking to a breeder's site is considered advertisement and is not allowed. i also changed the description of the manx syndrome link to more closely resemble the name of the page. and, Karello, please do sign your comments with ~~~~, it makes it easier for everyone involved. Lachatdelarue (talk) 16:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: my take

message: I did some work on the article, trying to make it more neutral and accurate. Some of things that have been mentioned as 'inaccurate' I left alone, because I don't know enough about the topic. The one thing that I know still needs to be done is the "Other Characteristics" section needs to be merged into other areas of the article, since much of it is repeat info, albeit in more detail. Also, references to calico cats link to tortoishell cat for a reason. The issue was discussed on the Tortoisehll cat and the Cat articles. Lachatdelarue (talk) 23:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: i did some work...

message: The article is factually accurate, as far as i can determine. if you two still feel the need to argue points that don't pertain to this specific article, i.e. Elias's cats ancestry, please take it to private emails. the talk page of an article is not the place for it. you have both broken the no personal attacks policy during the course of your discussions. please take it elsewhere. You both have made good additions to this article, and i hope you continue to work on wikipedia. Lachatdelarue (talk) 15:06, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: enough

message: Elias: The threat of Manx Syndrome still exists   .
Karello: Don't disagree that Manx has genetic limitations, do disagree with them being called Manx Syndrome. All conditions commonly referred to by Manx Syndrome occur in other animals and humans and can't be linked to the Manx gene specifically or accurately named Manx Syndrome.  
  Karello 07:04, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
:These four links are NOT about Manx. Therefore, they don't count. They don't even mention the breed Manx or the problem the breed has. Either way, find a cat site that says it isn't called Manx syndrome in the case of Manx cats to back up your statement, and without this site, or just accept yourself of being wrong here.
:EliasAlucard|Talk 09:35, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
Verdict: Wikipedia is not the place for original research.  We have to reflect existing human knowledge, not mould it. The fact is that that there is a syndrome called Manx Syndrome. It seems to me that Karello is disagreeing with the term itself, and would like wikipedia to promote those views? The JPS 12:51, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have rewritten this section. Please indicate below whether or not you are happy with the present section about Manx Syndrome in relation to wipedia policy (i.e. reflecting knowledge, not enforcing a strand of it). The JPS 14:15, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Manx Syndrome

message: Elias: Short quote: "Stumpy Manx have between 1 & 6 tail vertebrae. This is usually straight, but can sometimes be kinked or even curled in a bobtail like fashion." Although this is on Manx rats, the very same thing can happen with Manx cats.   Another short quote in case you don't find the statement: "but it may be a Manx-type mutation since some lines produce a range of tailless, rumpy, stumpy, longy and kink-tail cats." .
Karello: Not disputing stumpy tailless cats with kinks in their tails, [although] I've never had this in my registered Manx.
Verdict: Manx cats sometimes have kinks in their tails. The JPS 12:51, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Manx stumpy kinked tail

message: Elias: Short quote: In cats natural isolation and inbreeding have given rise to domestic breeds such as the Manx which developed on an island so that the gene for taillessness became widespread despite the problems associated with it. .
Another short quote: "The reason for the missing tail is due to a dominant mutant gene that appeared in the animal a long time ago due to the breed's confinement on the Isle of Man that also led to its concentrated in-breeding. The mutant gene caused a spinal malformation that spread throughout the cat community resulting in the loss of the animal's tail."  Short quote again: "There is little doubt that the isolation of the island allowed the tail-less trait to be perpetuated but the tail-less-ness is the result of a genetic mutation possibly caused by inbreeding British Shorthairs."  Quote: "The Manx was easily established due to the genetic nature of the tailless trait and centuries of inbreeding in an isolated island environment."  Quote: "The Manx is the result of spontaneous mutation, which occurred hundreds of years ago. This mutation caused kittens to be born without the vertebrae which forms a normal cat tail. The isolation of the cats on an island meant years of inbreeding which produced dominate gene traits, which now appear in the "Manx Cat"." 
Karello: Inbreeding in itself does not cause tailless or shortened tails, the gene which causes shortened or tailessness is a spontainous mutation and is already present in that animals genetic make up when it reproduces.  Otherwise, ALL animals who are inbred and have small gene pools such as registered animals who do not allow outcrosses would be born tailless or have shortened tails.       
:Seriously Karello, Once again, these links don't have anything to do with Manx, and they don't backup your statement. I mean, where do any of these link say that inbreeding cannot under any circumstances cause taillessnes? The funny thing is you posted my link.
:EliasAlucard|Talk 18:04, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
::I've already addressed your dispute and provided facts as instructed.  Ever see a horse, dog or cow born without a tail, they've been inbred?  Here's some Manx information, when two tailed Manx are bred the result is tailed kittens, inbred and not.  Pedigreed cats have been inbred for years and still are, still they do not have kittens born without or with only half tails.
::Seems to me your having trouble following "the rules" again.  Dispute addressed, I don't have to justify my answers to you. Karello 12:56, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
:::Cows are not cats. They are two completely different species. You can't make such a comparison. Inbreeding doesn't affect them in the same way. By the way, stop pointing to the rules, I see what you're doing here, you're just trying to get me banned for "violating the rules." I'm not being hostile in any way, just pointing out the obvious: these links are not backing up your statement. Once again, accept yourself of being wrong.
:::EliasAlucard|Talk 15:35, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
Verdict:  It doesn't seem that inbreeding can make any cat tailess. The gene is more important. Elias, your first quotation suggests that inbreeding reated Manx, but the sentence is poorly structured. The second quotation ("The reason for the missing tail...") is also ambiguous. They are giving prominence to the gene rather than inbreeding, as if inbreeding has resulted from genetic mutation.
I think it's too ambiguous and peripheral, and it would be better to leave it out of the article.
The JPS 19:21, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Inbreeding can make any cat tailless and created Manx

message: I fixed the breed table to conform to the standard (Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cat_breeds#Table_template) If someone wants to work the information I removed from the table (that the breed's mean weight is 5.5kg/12lbs and that the breed was developed before the 1700s) into the article, be my guest. Lachatdelarue (talk) 23:25, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: breed table

message: I apologize a head of time for this being long but felt there was much I needed to address ( I shall try to stick to the facts) and dispute.
To: TheJPS, there is no need to email me privately and post the same reply to this discussion page so those you wish to know I've email you in confidence could see your answer to me, one reply would have sufficed, private would have been more professional but I understand your position.  Thank you again for acknowledging my capability to add knowledgeable information and edit the article accurately based on my experience, although your acknowledgement was not necessary, again.  There is no need to continuously repeat Wikipedia's position that a source supporting claims is needed to substantiate things I post to the article I got that a long time ago, although I question if this means ALL who post or just some?  Up to this point, I feel I've done as you've asked of me, I've tried to stick to the facts, no personal attacks, limit my posts to this page and have tried my best to provide as many relevant sources and topics concerning the matters in question in a dispute including topics in different animals, each time I've been asked to.  I realize your frustration with this article and acknowledge your hostility towards me.  Admitting  that you "don't even care about Manx cats and have more important and interesting things to worry about" shows how frustrated you are and that you might not be suited to reply with a verdict unbiased.  I too am frustrated as well, and have a life beyond this article but am not easily discouraged, chased away by personal attacks or disputes, I will see this through.  New individuals who can add to this article and might have more experience with this topic will always be a welcomed addition by me.  When I joined Wikipedia I was encouraged to be bold (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:BB) and have fun, that's a joke right? 
  
In response to the accusation that you made on the history page "Description was not 'simplified'. The meaning was changed."  I acted solely on what I felt was your verdict to the dispute concerning inbreeding.  You stated "It doesn't seem that inbreeding can make any cat tailless. The gene is more important. I think it's too ambiguous and peripheral, and it would be better to leave it out of the article". 
Yes, I changed the information relating to inbreeding to what I said was "Simplified explanation for taillessness in kittens, added information to the tail to tail breeding."  I still feel it is simplifying it change it from "The most scientific explanation of this breed's evolution is that the lack of cats on Isle of Man became a problem, and thus, inbreeding became a very common thing—to the extent where a lack of tail became a natural trait with this breed. It is normal (not always) for cats to be born tailless, or have a shorter tail than usual when exposed to inbreeding, regardless of the breed. However, the taillessness disappears with subsequent breedings for such cats [2] (http://moggycat13.tripod.com/id46.html). This is one of the reasons why not any tailless cat can be called Manx." 
to (reference page http://www.petpublishing.com/catkit/breeds/manx.shtml under paragraph beginning with "Scientists".
"The scientific explanation of this breed's evolution is that taillessness resulted from a mutant gene. Through time and a closed environment this genetic mutation became very concentrated and a known breed trait in cats on the Isle of Man."  
Obviously Elias and perhaps you were offended by my edit on inbreeding, I apologize it was not my intent to offend anyone.  When you and/or Elias removed my edit on inbreeding other information I added was removed that was not in question!!  My edits are constantly being removed by Elias, relevant or not this should not be allowed to be happening without first being disputed and then settled!  This along with personal attacks have been an on going thing I've had to deal with. I've been told this behavior is inappropriate on Wikipedia and have tried my best not to participate in them even when attacked, Elias has been told the same thing and has even promised to stop, yet still continues and is not banned.  
  
Other edits I've posted (that have been removed) changed a redundant sentence that reads "The Manx (tailless) gene is dominant; kittens from Manx parents are generally born without any tail.  There is no accurate rate to determine the amount of tailed to tailless kittens produced in each litter." 
to 
"The Manx (tailless) gene is dominant, but there is no accurate rate to determine the amount of tailed to tailless kittens produced in each litter." takes care of a redundancy in the two sentences.  
Can anyone tell me why the prior sentence is better other than the fact that Elias was the one who posted it?  Isn't this site about editing and improving the articles?  I thought that's what I was doing not having "my way."  
  
I also added information to the sentence "However, tailed Manx bred to tailed Manx normally results in all tailed kittens, even though there are exceptions." 
to 
"Tailed Manx bred to tailed Manx normally results in all tailed kittens. Exceptions are few and are believed one of the tailed cats was mistakenly thought to be tailed and was in fact a long stumpy." 
I'm assuming again it was because I posted it?  
Finally, many individuals have contacted me concerning the article I've been editing on this site, discussions on this and the history page. As a result, I've been asked to write and edit several articles on the Manx breed cat for their website's, some already exist on pages within this article.  For now I have new kittens to watch grow and that's higher on my list than this.
Karello 00:13, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
:"If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it." <--- Quote from Wikiepdia when you hit the "Edit this page" button. If you got a problem with this, don't edit. It's as simple as that. Stop dreaming of me being banned for editing your writing. I edit a lot on other articles. 80% of my edits are kept, the rest of it is either removed or changed to different sentences with the same meaning. This is how it works on Wikipedia. As for the inbreeding part, I've proven you wrong now by providing good sources. And JPS has a life. I regret I brought him into this dispute.
:EliasAlucard|Talk 06:33, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
::#I posted my reply here because it contained information which future people attempting to work on this might find helpful.  As the author of my e-mail, what I do with it is my prerogative. I did not post your e-mail, which would indeed have been poor netiquette. You have already written much of what you wrote in your "confidential" e-mail on this talk page anyway.
::#You have not been personally attacked, certainly not by me. I have merely stated as concisely as possible why decisions are going against you.
::##You have responded to any personal attacks you believe Elias has made against you.  There is little need for me to repeat them.
::#I have no grievances/affiliations with either of you. Decisions going against you are usually because of W:NOR.
::#Actually, I think the lack of my involvement/interest in Manx actually qualifies me as an impartial adjudicator. 
::#As this is an ongoing dispute, policy should be referred to whenever necessary.
::#As far as WP:BB is concerned, check out WP:BB#...but don't be reckless. On a psychoanalytical level, I'm sure we're all having fun.
::#I will look more closely at your edit. I reverted it immediately as it was a poorly constructed sentence that seemed to imply more than what we had agreed.
::#I have enjoyed working on this article, and will also see it out. If an outsider is following this, I'd appreciate a bit of support, though.
::#An individual's idea of improving an article is synonymous with having their "way."
::The JPS 10:32, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: My reply to JPS's email and posting here.

message: I just nominated the article for the Article Improvement Drive. I hope folks like the idea. This is my first nomination, and I was a bit vague on the proper syntax of nomination, so hopefully I won't get flamed for doing it wrong.
It actually could have been a Peer Review candidate, since it's in pretty good shape, but the AID will probably invite more outside input. Let's see if it makes it. Catbar (Brian Rock) 01:33, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Nominated for Article Improvement Drive

message: The Isle of Mann isn't a country
It is a dependancy of the British Crown(not the UK)
Dudtz 8/19/05 7:22 PM EST
:Under many definitions of the word "country", it is one.  How the UK decides to term its constituent parts isn't of much concern to anyone but the British. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 20:23, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Isle of Mann

message: How about we archive this talk page? I don't know how to do it, but it sure needs to be done in my opinion. I mean, it's way too much text, no one is ever going to read all of it, and we need to start anew. It's too much negative atmosphere in reading all of that, because most of it is dispute anyway. So how about it? EliasAlucard|Talk 02:02, 20 Aug, 2005 (UTC)
=== Species? ===
What's the scientific name of the Manx cat?  Is it the same as other cats, or does it have its own subspecies?  The Jade Knight 00:04, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: F. s. cattus - same as all other domestic cats, regardless of breed.  Except the wild hybrids like the Bengal of course. pschemp | talk 01:42, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive

message: What's the scientific name of the Manx cat?  Is it the same as other cats, or does it have its own subspecies?  The Jade Knight 00:04, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: F. s. cattus - same as all other domestic cats, regardless of breed.  Except the wild hybrids like the Bengal of course. pschemp | talk 01:42, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Species? 

message: I have a Manx/Siamese  momma that just had four kittens  colors: black,  orange, creamsicle and a longhaired grey that looks like his face is flatter persian like.   
Anyways  the creamsicle one is tailess  not even a nub  and it is 
like it is either constipated and then dripping and sometimes pees while nursing.   sometimes are worse than others and yet it tries to use the litter box- on occasion.   sometimes it seems to be peeing out his butt.   
I was hoping there was some treatment for this  I just cant see puting her down  she is so cute and playful   and sweet   maybe just a   make-shift diaper or something or permanent outdoor cat.  
I was hoping to find a home for her that could afford the vet bill .   I can't 
feel free to email me about this 
Thanks 
Mrs. Binnie
:Wikipedia is not a veterinary advice site. Take your cat to a vet. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 20:23, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bowell incontinence 

message: I made a lot of changes to the article—if anyone has any problems let me know. (I didn't delete much but did move quite a few things around.)
Regarding the "Personality" section, everything in there looks anecdotal and subjective. I think the whole thing should be deleted, but I didn't want to do so unilaterally. Does anyone else agree? Tocharianne 03:52, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: My latest changes