Talk:Ludwig Kaas/Archive 1

message: Go to the Centre  Party Germany page to understand Kaas .Flamekeeper 11:32, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Early text

message: Is needed  on all the articles that , like this one, touch or deal with the papal policy of combating communism through promotion of fascism . Arbitration is needed across languages and into the parallel wikipedias .A quick view of the editing  here will show an arbiter what is going on : I have warned from the beginning of my attempts to straighten the record, that the Holy See would not be able to permit  these links.   Here even the later and relatively inocuous involvement of the vatican with the army  widerstand ,  are presently axed . I rather think the arbitration should take a hard line about this editing. Famekeeper 08:24, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitration

message: Henceforth I will not believe discussion with such active revisionism possible.I revert the word "reluctant" as being clear POV :no proof or citation provided . But I put it back in to show the extent of the problem , This article is seriously wrong and flawed . I warn of impending dispute . I cite under  fair use and the needs of historical correctitude  the following text from Klemens vov Klemperer's  1992  Oxford University Press German Resistance Against Hitler (The Search for Alies Abroad 1938 -19450)  :
 
::The German Catholics , the once much  maligned "enemies of the Reich", partly in compensation , were pre-occupied during the Second Reich with proving their national reliability, and, while after 1918 their Centre Party did become one of the pillars of the 'Weimar coalition', it clearly veered in the last years of the Republic towards the right. Franz von Papen , one of the last chancellors before Hitler , belonged to the increasingly influential right wing of the Centre Party and became a decisive force in engineering Hitler's seizure of power . The leader of the Centre Party , Prelate Ludwig Kaas  , was no less instrumental in advocating co-operation with the Nazis and, after their seizure of power , negotiating the treachorous Enabling Act(23 March 1933) and subsequently the Concordat with the Vatican (20 July 1933) . As for the German episcopate , it did not see fit , despite its obvious fundamental differences with Nazi ideology  , to assume a clear cut position against the movement . "
That paragraph continues  and will probably need fair-use to squash more POV/revisionism as KvK deals with the episcopal weakness  following its reversal of policy towards the Nazis and its relationship to the Enabling Act . Below  there is a reference to further damnation  , given by one of the users , yet not availed of by that user in his editing , in any way .
:::I  insert this relevant statement by user JohnK "Trying to find some perspective on this subject, I looked at Priests, Prelates and People: A History of European Catholicism since 1750 by Nicholas Atkin and Frank Tallett, published by Oxford University Press in 2003. This can surely stand in as a relatively authoritative source. Looking at it, I will admit that the basic substance of Flamekeeper's accusations seems to be supported by Atkin and Tallett's narrative - Pius XI and Pacelli were willing to acquiesce in the Centre Party's demise as a quid pro quo in return for the Concordat, and Kaas was, essentially, acting as their agent." 
The clearly incorrect  statement that the CP was dissolved is flagged . If  you dissolve me , in past tense  I am dissolved . If I dissolve myself - I dissolved . The history has been proved  by the  German user who informed us of the official line on this ,emanating from its contemporary remains , at talk Centre Party Germany . All historians equally contradict the statement- and it was clear Nazi policy  to achieve auto-dissolution , Therefore this is of the utmost revisionist importance  . This is linguistic revisionism of  a similar subtlety to all other  such historical abuse  I have encountered on pages touching the history of Papal collusion with Fascism .Fiamekeeper 08:32, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute

message: Thanks Sam, I appreciate your edits. It's always better to have more than one person editing - not just because of typos and idiosyncracies.
However, I changed some things back.
The "irresponsible" is included again, though in different form, so that it's clear that this was Kaas' view.
The "himself" I changed to "in person" - the point was that Hitler agreed via his substitute Papen and addressed the issues in the speech he himself held that day (this is what Klemperer referred to).
The only thing I actually reverted was "convincing" into "bullying". I'm open for a better wording (say pressuring), but the government did not convince the diocesis by some fair and balanced argument, but by putting pressure on them, citing this paragraph and that etc.
Str1977 19:48, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good. Why would Hitler want vengence on Kaas, btw? That could be better explained. Sam Spade 20:50, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits

message: Dear FK,
thanks for posting a really interesting section. I hope you don't mind that I straigthened it a bit (nothin really big. There are just some question I'd like to ask:
1) this is a fascinating story, but Kaas is rather a minor character in this. Of course, it should be mentioned here, that he was part of it, but maybe the whole thing would suit better in an entry on the "Ochensepp" Josef Müller, of whom there is much more to say - his work as a lawyer and his post-war career as a politician.
2) I don't understand these sentences: 
"It seems the British were keen, as power was still with Chamberlain and Halifax and the later corrected vacillation concerning German demands was evident."
"At any rate the implication is that all involved were prepared to foresee some solution based on sufficient German territorial aggrandisement to placate the German people after the 
"loss" of their "Adolf Hitler" during wartime." 
3) I think the following sentence is too much POV. At least it should be explained what was so fortunate.
Fortunately for Europe, the British policy was to swiftly change once Winston Churchill replaced Neville Chamberlain. 
3) And I don't really get the last sentence either, especially after "the views ..."
Monsignor Kaas is reported as alerting the British contact, the Minister  to the Holy See, Francis D'Arcy Osborne, the views of Hermann Göring in anti-communist sympathy with the opposition.
Kaas was alerting the British ambassador - about what?
How is the sentence after "the views of Göring" connected.
And who had anti-communist sympathy
And what about the opposition
Please consider these questions.
Anyway, I really appreciate this post.
Str1977 21:19, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Come off it strasser, every time hitherto I play nice to your nice, somewhere else you are setting up a huge battering ram against me . Why should I trust you  when you eradicate anything impius and problematical  and just the slightest bit awkward to you know who ? If you don't understand, get someone else to  translate , just don't think you can  twist English , cause  'taint possible  or you need better help.  I mean exactly what I say - so mind  , cos this is a subject that didn't start and won't end, and I don't mean the Pope in particular .  I shall reveal  what and wherever I can  .Fiamekeeper 22:47, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New section