Talk:University Circle

message: Little Italy is a major district in Cleveland, however, for the purposes of the Census Bureau, the neighborhood isn't considered an independent district. So far as the Cleveland City Planning Commission is concerned, Little Italy is part of the University Circle Statistical Planning Area, which is what the Cleveland neighborhood template, as well as the census data in each neighborhood's respective infobox, is based on. In an attempt to make the neighborhoods of Cleveland system more standardized for Wikipedia readers (and remember, these are encyclopedia articles meant for the world, not a collection of neighborhood pride Facebook pages), it is vital that we keep the listings on the template consistent. For Little Italy to be part of this, the merger is necessary.
It is the goal of WikiProject Cleveland to sort and improve and Cleveland-related articles for Wikipedia's larger readership. This merger with the University Circle article won't lose any of the Little Italy article's original content, and in fact will connect it better to the Cleveland Neighborhood sub-project -- which only includes the larger census tracts as defined by the already mentioned City Planing Commission.
I grew up close to Murray Hill and I understand the pride the neighborhood has. It is not my intention to water down the article's content, or to disenfranchise the people who live or have lived there. Quite to the contrary, the aim of this move is to increase the awareness and thus the availability of info on Little Italy. 
In case there are any who disbelieve my statements regarding the Cleveland City Planning Commission's partitioning of Statistical Planning Areas (SPA), here is a link to the webpage: http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/census/factsheets/cpc.html
Thank you for your input.Ryecatcher773 (talk) 03:43, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not see why the view of either the Census Bureau or the Cleveland City Planning Commission should determine what WP should do with these entries. These are two distinct areas with two distinct characters, and have been thought of, named, and referred to in the public press as distinct neighborhoods for most of the past hundred years.  The primary purpose of WP is to assist people in learning about subjects about which they seek knowledge, and those looking for Murray Hill are unlikely to begin their search by entering the term "University Circle." But if, indeed, Murray Hill 'must' be incorporated here, there's a serious problem, which is that 60% of the detailed information here is about Murray Hill, and there's very little information on any aspect of University Circle. One solution I might suggest for the time being would be a  brief entry on the 'district' with a demarcation of its boundaries, census figures, etc., with links to separate articles on these two very different places. Clevelander96 (talk) 13:57, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: In any case, it seems to me that general information about the district as a whole should come before subsections on smaller areas within the district; I've re-ordered the sections accordingly.Clevelander96 (talk) 14:15, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your reply to my comments.  First, though, how can we be certain that "Little Italy" is more more "correct" than "Murray Hill"? There seem, after all, to be only four or five other "Murray Hill" neighborhoods listed in Wikipedia, whereas there are more than 50 known as "Little Italy." Growing up in Cleveland I heard both names used, though probably "Murray Hill" was a bit more common.  And yes, official statistics are based on a squared-off zone which includes Little Italy (as well as a slice of  the city east of E. 105th,  and the Cedar Hill area, as well as MLK drive up to Superior Ave. -- but few in these outer areas would think of themselves as being "in" University Circle.  I don't mean to jump in if this has been hashed out already by the Cleveland WikiProject , but it seems to me that there are probably thousands of known and named neighborhoods in major U.S. cities whose boundaries are known by local convention and usage, but may not always correspond with official boundaries or census districts. So what we have now is an entry which can be tied to  statistical info very readily, but which is quite different from local, on-the-ground naming conventions.  My feeling is that the "University Circle" as a place where universities, hospitals, and other cultural institutions are located is not identical with "University Circle" the census and administrative district, and that somehow this should be addressed in the structure of the entry. Clevelander96 (talk) 18:27, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

text: Well, it may be officially "Little Italy," and that's fine -- I only point out that this adds to, rather than decreasing, any possible confusion with other places in other cities. But I'm a native too -- born in University Hospitals in 1960! -- which according to this entry, means we're from the same neighborhood ;-).  I also went to pre-school, and later high school, in the University Circle area. I only point out that there are many named neighborhoods in Cleveland and other cities whose boundaries are entirely "colloquial" -- and many of them have WP entries. Clevelander96 (talk) 20:51, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The site www.city-data.com does offer a detailed map of Cleveland neighborhoods; it treats Little Italy and University Circle as different neighborhoods, and offers separate and extensive statistical profiles of both. www.positivelycleveland.com lists Cleveland neighborhoods and treats University Circle and Little Italy as different neighborhoods.  The Images of America book series has separate volumes for Little Italy and University Circle. The online version of the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History (a go-to site for Cleveland articles on WP, surely) lists Little Italy as a separate and "well-defined" neighborhood and states that one of its boundaries is "the Case Western Reserve Campus to the west." No one of these, of course, is necessarily authoritative, but clearly one could argue from reliable sources as defined by WP that these are two separate neighborhoods, and the statistical problem can readily be solved. Why not gather some other active members of the WikiProject Cleveland group and look at these issues? Clevelander96 (talk) 21:33, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the detailed reply. Yes, Little Italy is small, but that doesn't necessarily mean the WP article need stay small. It certainly looms large in most descriptions of the cultural landscape of Cleveland. One might consider it best as a part of a larger article which could include the former "Big Italy" (located along Woodland and Orange avenues from E. 9th St. to E. 40th St.). I don't have a problem with using SPA's as a guideline, but I do think that in Cleveland and elsewhere there are many named neighborhoods that don't -- officially -- exist. To use a Cleveland-area example, what about the "Coventry" neighborhood in Cleveland Heights? It certainly had, perhaps has, a distinctive vibe, but Coventry road extends far beyond the neighborhood. Should it be only a subsection in the article on "Cleveland Heights"? Or is it distinctive enough to merit a separate main entry? Or what about Doan's Corners? It certainly was a significant place (although now it's been obliterated by the ever-expanding Cleveland Clinic), but I don't think it ever was a clearly defined district in political or census terms (and yes, the WP entry on it is not quite what it should be). I'm not militating for sweeping changes, but I think this is a question that at some point will be to be discussed project-wide. Speaking of which, although I've been self-flagged as a member of WikiProject Cleveland since June of 2010, my name never appeared on the list on the page, and when I tried to edit the list I got a 'no such page exists' error, though there surely is data in it. I'd be grateful if you could add me, or let me know how I might add myself. Thanks, Clevelander96 (talk) 18:05, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Reasoning for Little Italy Merger

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