Talk:Operation Defensive Shield

message: The number of Palestinian casualties in operation "Defesive Shield" is grossly inaccurate. 
According to the Report of the Secretary-General prepared pursuant to GA resolution ES-10/10 (Report on Jenin) (A/ES-10/186) "A total of 497 Palestinians were killed in the course of the IDF reoccupation of Palestinian area A from 1 March to 7 May 2002 and in the immediate aftermath". Alas, Operation "Defensive Shiled" was conducted from 29 March to 10 May 2002. 
According to B'tselem report , 244 Palestinians were killed between 29 March to 10 May 2002. 
Niksage (talk) 17:51, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Palestinian Casualties

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:PIJ emblem.png

message: Please raise POV concerns alongside reliable sources that would help expand the content. Relevant content could be added, but I would suggest the edit would first be pasted here for discussion.With respect, JaakobouChalk Talk 08:45, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV discussion 

message: This section is for links being removed from the article, either because they are not related, or not reliable. 
*Arafat Blames Israel for Tel Aviv Bombing, PMW, July 12, 2004 
**Palestinian Media Watch is not a reliable source. Tiamuttalk 13:08, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  References removed - not related or not reliable 

message: JaakobouChalk Talk 12:30, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Strategic vs. Military

message: Given the instability of this article in the recent past, I have fully-protected it to prevent further disruptive editing rather than block any of those concerned. This is not an exoneration of any editor responsible, and I would urge all concerned to participate constructively to the nascent discussions in the above sections, and if that does not produce consensus, pursue other means of dispute resolution.  Skomorokh  21:18, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page protected 

message: I am declining the request for a 3rd opinion made at WP:3O, since you have already raised the issue to the wider community in the RfC in the next section. Regards, --Stfg (talk) 09:10, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for 3rd Opinion declined

message: I'd like to ask for comments from the community on the Bethlehem section of this article, particularly the first paragraph where user AmirSurfLera seems to argue that the suggestion that the IDF deployed a shaldag unit to "deny [the church of the nativity] to the people of Bethlehem as a place of refuge"TeeTylerToe (talk) 23:09, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Your version is unacceptable because it removes sourced content, including the part where the Vatican "condemns the Palestinian gunmen who entered the area". The current version is more complete and neutral.--AmirSurfLera (talk) 00:56, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not in the current version, and what source supports that?  If you have a source that supports that it can be added along with any other sources.  Your version had 3 sources including the one about someone being deported from cyprus, and included many unsupported claims.  Mine adds many sources and is well supported.TeeTylerToe (talk) 01:33, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the paragraph and the sources of the article. This is what the source says: The Vatican officially warned Israel to respect the religious site and ensure no damage was caused while Holy See Undersecretary of State, Archbishop Jean-Louis Tauran, condemned the Palestinian gunmen who entered the area. "The Palestinians have entered into bilateral agreements [with the Holy See] in which they undertake to maintain and respect the status quo regarding the Christian holy places and the rights of Christian communities," the Archbishop said on Vatican Radio. "To explain the gravity of the current situation, let me begin with the fact that the occupation of the holy places by armed men is a violation of a long tradition of law that dates back to the Ottoman era. Never before have they been occupied - for such a lengthy time - by armed men."--AmirSurfLera (talk) 01:38, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I hadn't noticed you'd slipped that jewish virtual library editorialization into the article.  We can add that to the RFC.  D:  Do you support including the jewish virtual library's editorialization that characterized the archbishop's statement as a condemnation.TeeTylerToe (talk) 01:56, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand your question. The JVL source was already there. I merely added the Archbishop's condemnation per NPOV.--AmirSurfLera (talk) 02:05, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC on Bethlehem section 

message: I placed a "Citation needed" tag on the classification of Operation Defensive Shield as an "Israeli victory" about two weeks ago. User:Wlglunight93 provided the following source, published by the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs: "Winning Counterinsurgency War: The Israeli Experience". It's not enough to cite one source and be done with the issue. The standard for calling Operation Defensive Shield an "Israeli victory" should be that there is broad consensus among reliable sources that the operation was, indeed, an Israeli victory. The fact that one Israeli general, writing for an Israeli think tank, says that the operation was a victory, is not enough to establish a consensus on the issue. I went to Google Books and typed in "Operation Defensive Shield victory," the same search term User:Wlglunight93 likely used, and came up with a list of ten sources in the first page of hits, of which "Winning Counterinsurgency War" was the fifth hit. Based on quick skimming the other sources say the following:
* "The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: A People's War", which says that Israeli was not victorious, because it did not achieve its fundamental aims in the war.
* "Victory for Us is to See You Suffer: In the West Bank with the Palestinians" does not actually address the question of victory in this operation directly.
* "Cursed Victory: A History of Israel and the Occupied Territories" does not directly pronounce on the question.
* "34 Days: Israel, Hezbollah, and the War in Lebanon" doesn't say much on Operation Defensive Shield, but it does say that "Israel successfully checked a terrorist threat" - that could be interpreted as meaning Israel achieved victory.
* "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict" doesn't say directly whether or not Operation Defensive Shield was an Israeli victory (at least in the Google Books preview I have available now), but it does argue that claims about the operation ending terrorism are wrong.
* "War Without End: Israelis, Palestinians, and the Struggle for a Promised Land" gives a mixed evaluation of Operation Defensive Shield. The operation influenced international public opinion in favor of Arafat, but allowed Israel to find documents possibly drawing a link between Arafat and terror. The IDF made important military gains, but failed to halt the terrorist attacks. As the title of the book suggests, this author doesn't seem to regard either party as the ultimate victor.
* "Operation Defensive Shield: Witnesses to Israeli War Crimes" doesn't have enough of a preview on Google Books to see whether it considers the operation a success from Israel's point of view.
* "The Road Map to Nowhere: Israel/Palestine Since 2003" says that Sharon viewed Operation Defensive Shield "as a big success" because it destroyed Palestinian institutions and militant groups. The author doesn't appear to share Sharon's assessment, repeating the words "success" and "achievements" in scare quotes, and noting that the Palestinians reorganized quickly after the operation.
The sources raise different considerations about the effects of Operation Defensive Shield on terrorism, Palestinian institutions and international public opinion. One of the sources (a former Israeli general) claims the operation was an Israeli victory, another source ("A People's War") argues that Israel was not victorious, and most sources emphasize how complicated the outcome was, without ascribing victory to either side. From this list, there is no consensus among the sources that would justify the label "Israeli victory." -Thucydides411 (talk) 03:08, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It sounds like both sides claimed victory, but maybe this would be a good time to call for an expert opinion.  Maybe add a section in the main article about what rationales each side used to claim victory.TeeTylerToe (talk) 04:26, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The sources evaluate the outcome differently. In my opinion, there's no point in labeling such an operation "Israeli victory" or "Palestinian victory," especially when most of the sources emphasize how messy and indeterminate the outcome was. The best way to improve the article is to expand the "Strategic Outcome" section of the article. -Thucydides411 (talk) 01:30, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

text: I don't know what the point of "Israeli victory (according to IDF)" would be. Should we list each party's view on the outcome of the conflict separately? The outcome of this operation is too complex for a short infobox entry. We should just keep the discussion in the "Strategic Outcome" section. -Thucydides411 (talk) 15:53, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact is that this operation is widely regarded as a tactical victory for Israel which helped to reduce the number of successful suicide attacks. On the other hand, I'm not aware that this operation is considered to be a "victory" among Palestinians--Wlglunight93 (talk) 15:58, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: If that's the fact, then there should be a consensus among reliable sources. From the above list, it does not look like there is such a consensus - some argue for a Palestinian victory, some for an Israeli victory, but the majority argue that the outcome was more complicated than a simple victory for one side. If you want to include a claim of victory in the article, it is incumbent upon you to provide a representative list of reliable sources which support that claim. -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:04, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Victory? Discussion of Sources. 

message: I have removed the paragraph on the IDF's reaction to Red Cross statements in the Ramallah section since the source given for that paragraph did not mention any IDF reaction. Huon (talk) 12:54, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ramallah: IDF reaction 

message: Israel let me cross the border during the second intifada and I'm a US citizen. If anyone knows if there were other American civilians in Jenin please email me at:
christy.mathis82@gmail.com ChristyAwad (talk) 02:57, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jenin  

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message: The lede transliterates מִבְצָע as mitzvah when it is in fact mivtsa. I don't have permissions to edit this page, so I'm asking someone else to do it for me. Kyoto Grand (talk) 01:37, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hebrew mistransliteration