Talk:Torajan people

message: Hi everyone. I've just made a major change of this article: Toraja, about an ethnic group in Indonesia. I found this article as only a stub , did some research and put my contribution in the article. However I need somebody else to review this article, as one editor is not enough to make a good article. Could somebody please give me some feedbacks? What's still missing in this article? NPOV? sources? or wording? Thanks a lot in advance. — Indon (reply) — 11:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, Indon! I'm Hildanknight, creator of RFF. This is an excellent article, and I could not spot any problems during my brief reading of the article. I suggest you send the article for a peer review, where it will receive more extensive and specific feedback, and once the peer review is completed, nominate it for Good Article. As a member of the Good Articles WikiProject, I'd be happy for you if Toraja becomes a good article. I have to go to bed now, but hopefully one of my friends will soon drop by and give you more extensive feedback. If I have the time tomorrow, I will read the article more thoroughly and get back to you. All the best to you, both in real life and as a Wikipedian! --J.L.W.S. The Special One 14:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Hildanknight, thanks for your support. It gives me a good feeling about sending it to the peer review and GA list. Since I'm the only one who did a major contribution, I tried to put the article here first. All right, have a good night sleep, but I am waiting for your thorough and comprehensive review tomorrw ;-). — Indon (reply) — 14:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, I noticed your edit, Yomangani. Thanks a lot. I admit that I have a difficulty in tenses. — Indon (reply) — 15:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments from [[WP:RFF|Request for Feedback]] 

message: it's a live-feed — Indon (reply) — 18:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments from [[Wikipedia:Peer review/Toraja/archive1|Peer Review]] 

message: it's a live-feed — Indon (reply) — 18:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Portal:Indonesia/Selected_article_nominees|Nominations for selected Indonesia article]] 

message: it's a live-feed — Indon (reply) — 04:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments from [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Indonesia/Peer_review/Toraja|Indonesia peer review]] 

message: * Would like to see some pictures of Toraja people, preferablly in their traditional clothes. Can't imagine a page about an ethnic group without having some pictures of the people themselves :-)
* Would like more details about their culture - their food, clothes, art, crafts, etc.
* Could include a section listing notable Torajan people
Caniago
:Oops, a lot of requests ;-)
:*I wish I could find a picture of a Torajan people on the internet, released with suitable Wikipedia licenses. I don't live in Toraja, nor Indonesia and I cannot find a Torajan people here in Europe. As soon as I can find or ask one, I'll put it in this article.
:*About culture, I will expand it, but I need to do some research first. Also, I'm avoiding big article for Toraja, because as soon as it is too long, people won't read it. 
:*Notable Torajans? Hmm... I think, I've to ask some Torajan people on the internet.
:BTW, this is just an ordinary talk page. The above style I created is just because this talk page was empty. :-) — Indon (reply) — 07:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some requests 

message: The second type is tongkonan pekamberan, which belongs to the family group members, who have adat functionaries.
What is adat?  According to the adat article, it's system of traditional Mylay law.  Does this mean that the residents of the second type of house are local judges?
: Yes, they can be judges or some administrative persons. Perhaps adat article is not good enough to explain about it. I've fixed this sentence in the article. — Indon (reply) — 08:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks a lot Tjss. You've been a great reviewer. I'm going to fix the article from your feedbacks and renominate it again. Cheers back ;-). — Indon (reply) — 19:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Culture and commercialization

message: First, a congratulations. The article is well written, everything it should be. It was in-depth and covered the wide range of topics it should. There is only two things I would like you to address. Don't make me come back and take your GA away, please fix these quickly. A graph or chart displaying the rise of tourists or tourism income would be great. Note: it would be easy to contact the Indonesian tourism office and ask for year-by-year numbers of tourism income from Toraja. Then you could transpose those numbers into a graph. Its very easy to do. Your citations are here, good. The references are fine. You could flesh out the "Further Reading" section more. Otherwise, this is an excellent article. A bit more work and it is, to be honest, ready for FA nomination. I truly enjoyed reading this article.  Evan(Salad dressing is the milk of the infidel!) 11:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for reviewing this article and don't come back to get the GA away ;-), just kidding. Anyway, I can't promise any graph/chart image, as I'm far away from the ministry of tourism office, and .... lacking of images are not requirement of GA :-). Thanks again. — Indon (reply) — 11:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Article Passes

message: Indon, congrats on the GA status. One more suggestion - it would be great if there were a separate Wikipedia article for Tongkonan, as per Rumah Gadang.  When I get some time I'll be adding some more detail to the RG article to make it more informative than just the single picture and paragraph currently there. Ideally we could eventually have one article for every traditional architectural style present in Indonesia, with an overview article listing them all. (Caniago 10:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Michael, I have the same idea. I'd like to create one and I found a good source in library here, where I'm studying, but it is offline. The book is focused on Tongkonan architecture with its cultural purposes. Yes, it will be good to have each traditional Indonesian architecture as one WP article. I'll support for that. Thanks for the congrats. Cheers. — Indon (reply) — 11:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: One more suggestion

message: ===refs===
*cite journal | title = Bahasa Tae' Luwu Masuki Dunia Ilmiah| journal = Palopo | publisher = JURnalCelebe | date = 2005-05-11 | url = http://www.jurnalcelebes.com/view.php?id=196&jenis=jurnal_adat|accessdate = 2006-10-16 
**Journal and publisher aren't both used on cite journal. Not sure which is the journal, and which is the other?  Also, the URL doesn't work.  What is the language?  Is there an icon at :Category:Language icons?
*I linked journals and websources directly in footnotes; books need page nos.
*What is the language on Tana Toraja official website. Retrieved on October 4, 2006. Is there a language icon?
*Another language icon needed for A.C. Kruyt (1938). De West-Toradjas op Midden-Celebes. Amsterdam: Noord-Hollandsche Uitgevers-Maatschappij.  
*cf. Bigalke (1981)   What is Bigalke 81?  The refs have Bigalke 2005 ?
*What is Nooy-Palm (1979) ?  I find a 75 and an 88 ?
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work — I love beautiful references :-)  I think there are only three book sources lacking page numbers now:  Posey 96, Sande 89, and Kruyt.  Also, I couldn't add last access dates on all of the URLs, as some of them are JSTORS, and I don't have access.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I replaced Sande with the website that displays Sande's work. I have to go to the library for Kruyt's book, and that probably will be done next Monday. And I will change Posey 96 source with other. I have access to JSTORS, I'll change the last access dates for them. — Indon (reply) — 14:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now I'm feeling guilty that you're having to change book sources to web sources :-)  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, actually I love being verifiable. That is my mistake not to note the page number when I read it. Thanks a lot for your help. — Indon (reply) — 15:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: FAC review

message: *cite journal | title = Bahasa Tae' Luwu Masuki Dunia Ilmiah| journal = Palopo | publisher = JURnalCelebe | date = 2005-05-11 | url = http://www.jurnalcelebes.com/view.php?id=196&jenis=jurnal_adat|accessdate = 2006-10-16 
**Journal and publisher aren't both used on cite journal. Not sure which is the journal, and which is the other?  Also, the URL doesn't work.  What is the language?  Is there an icon at :Category:Language icons?
*I linked journals and websources directly in footnotes; books need page nos.
*What is the language on Tana Toraja official website. Retrieved on October 4, 2006. Is there a language icon?
*Another language icon needed for A.C. Kruyt (1938). De West-Toradjas op Midden-Celebes. Amsterdam: Noord-Hollandsche Uitgevers-Maatschappij.  
*cf. Bigalke (1981)   What is Bigalke 81?  The refs have Bigalke 2005 ?
*What is Nooy-Palm (1979) ?  I find a 75 and an 88 ?
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: refs

message: * The Taraja are defined as an ethnic group,  yet you refer to Taraja as a place quite often. Is this intentional, acceptable? Is  Taraja shorthand for the regency "Tana Toraja"?
* Sometimes I don't get the intended meaning of a sentence, which limits copyediting. See any edit comments I've left. –Outriggr § 04:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: copy

message: Thanks for reviewing this article to both of you. I'm going to reply your concerns one-by-one here:
; To Sandy
# The Palopo's article is now inaccessible, or the page is already dead. So I removed the statement while searching for a new replacement. In fact, I added one ref. in the Language section.
# Now I moved all citations into Notes section and left the books used as general source in the References section.
# Language icons are now added.
# Re. Bigalke (1981), it was a dissertation which is now a book in 2005. Another editor, Kathleen Adams herself, updated one citation to the book but I didn't realize that she hadn't replaced all. Now, Bigalke's thesis is also inaccessible and I don't have the book at hand. Thus, I replaced with other sources and copyedited a little bit to conform with the new source.
# Re. Nooy-Palm 1979, it was my mistake. It should be 1975. It's fixed now.
; To Outriggr
# Toraja is indeed an ethnic group. The Tana Toraja is the official regency name. In the article, Toraja is used also as an adjective word for the Torajan people. I have checked the article again, and I only found one word of Toraja that should point to Toraja society.
# I've seen your hidden comment and indeed you're right. I removed the awkward sentence.
Again, thanks. Let me know if there are other issues left. — Indon (reply) — 13:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work — I love beautiful references :-)  I think there are only three book sources lacking page numbers now:  Posey 96, Sande 89, and Kruyt.  Also, I couldn't add last access dates on all of the URLs, as some of them are JSTORS, and I don't have access.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I replaced Sande with the website that displays Sande's work. I have to go to the library for Kruyt's book, and that probably will be done next Monday. And I will change Posey 96 source with other. I have access to JSTORS, I'll change the last access dates for them. — Indon (reply) — 14:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now I'm feeling guilty that you're having to change book sources to web sources :-)  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, actually I love being verifiable. That is my mistake not to note the page number when I read it. Thanks a lot for your help. — Indon (reply) — 15:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Replies

message: I took out this sentence:
Tongkonan symbolize Toraja's microcosm.cf. Kis-Jovak et al (1988), Ch. 4, Hetty Nooy-Palm, The house as microcosm, p. 34.
I've to go to library to read the source again to know what this means. — Indon (reply) — 08:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  House as microcosm 

message: For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all  infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "related groups" info removed from infobox 

message: Hi Indon,
As I slowly copyedit... the Language section confuses me. I'm no linguist, but I don't see any evidence that the word "denomination" is used to refer to language groups. In the table, aren't "Kalumpang" and the others simply "languages", not "denominations"? See  The next question becomes, which is the "ethnic Toraja" language the article refers to? Is it the one with the most speakers listed—"Torajan-Sa'dan"? –Outriggr § 01:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe it's a bit too late to answer your question, but I agree with you. The source has been changed, so there is no denomination word in their website. Therefore, I reworded the section as it is now. And thanks a lot for reviewing this article. — Indon (reply) — 08:39, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language section 

message: I went to copyedit this article and found it to be in pretty good shape already. Fascinating reading, too. I fixed the few problems I found that I could address unaided. There are a couple of other things I noticed, though. As I encountered them reading along:
In "Family affiliation" it says "Each village is one extended family, the seat of which is the tongkonan, a traditional Torajan house. Each tongkonan has a name, which becomes the name of the village." But right there is a picture of a "village" showing a whole bunch of houses. The reader is puzzled.
In the same section it says that family relations are "practically signed". I can't imagine what that means. I went to change it to "effectively signed", supposing it meant "signed, as a contract", when I realized that there is nothing in the sentence that bears that kind of signing. Perhaps "are cemented"? 
In "Class affiliation", we see "direct descendants of the descended person from heaven". Although I think I know what is meant by "descended person from heaven", it would be better to expand that a little, maybe something like "direct descendants of their original ancestor believed to have descended from heaven", if that is indeed what it means. In any case, "descended person from heaven" is not English, and if you decide to keep it terse and murky, make it "direct descendants of the person descended from heaven".
Same section. I changed "slaves could be owned during wars" to "slaves could be taken during wars". Is this right?
In "Religious affiliation", I made the authority of the priest "earthly" so it reads better. Is that right? Also, the only "affiliation" I see in this section is that of the priest.
Wood Carvings: I changed "goodwill" to "virtue." "Goodwill" is a wrong word here, but I can't be sure what the right one is. Also, the last paragraph is deep, abstruse and sketchy.
Funeral rites: "with the exceptions of funerals for young children, and poor, low-status adults." This phrase seems extraneous and is ungrammatical. What are their funerals an exception to?
I "lined up" the dead buffalo because you can't "line" them. Is this right, or do their bodies "line" the field?
I was surprised to learn they use "machetes" to slaughter the animals. Perhaps there is a more specific term for the edged tool they use.
Why is "gifts" in quotes?
To say that the carved cliff grave is "usually" expensive means there is a cheap way to get months of carving done. This makes the reader think.
Dance and music: The helmet sports "a buffalo horn". I'll bet you a million dollars right now it has "a pair of buffalo horns" on it.
If "the deceased is carried from a rice barn to the rante", how did he get from under the house to the rice barn where we left him?
The "Language" section is a complete mess and needs the attention of an expert. If nobody else steps in, I'll take a whack at it later.
Commercialization: What is this Regency we're just now hearing about?
What is a "tourist object"? I've never seen the term before, and it seems like a bad translation of something. If it hadn't been in quotes once, I would have changed both instances to "tourist site".
"tourist imageries have made Torajans concealing their social status." I can't figure out what this means.
Well, there you go. That's my first pass. I usually see other problems the second time through, and I'll do that in a day or two. __Milkbreath 19:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a confusing line: "However, tourist imageries have made Torajans concealing their social status." Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about the subject can fix this. Paul Haymon 01:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe if you quote the lines completely as "However, tourist imageries have made Torajans concealing their social status. High status is not as esteemed in Tana Toraja as it once was. Many low-ranking men can declare themselves and their children nobles by gaining enough wealth through work outside the region and then marrying a noble woman.", then you'll understand. And maybe if you read the Class Affiliation subsection, then you understand that social status was one of the most important things of Toraja life. — Indon (reply) — 07:48, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, my dear Indon, the problem is "tourist imageries". That is a meaningless phrase in English. What is a tourist imagery? If I had been able to figure that out, I would have fixed it and "Torajans concealing" during the copyedit. I just want to get the English right so people can read this otherwise excellent article. --Milkbreath 12:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My dear Milkbeath, I wrote that from an article, written by an anthropologist. It's ref #5. The source is here: . Could you please read that and tell me if the lines in this article are still not correct. — Indon (reply) — 13:10, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I read the Rutgers article, which I admit I should have read before, but I'm kind of lazy, and I'm used to having access to the writer when I copyedit. Kathleen Adams uses the word "imagery" the way many scholarly writers use words—she slightly redefines it for the purposes of her article and expects us to keep up. Too, there is a big difference between her "touristic imagery" and our "tourist imageries"; in hers, "imagery" is a mass noun like "cattle" and can't be plural. I will go and fix the sentence in the actual article now. Please let me know if it still says what you want it to when I'm done. Also, while I have your attention, the other problems above still need fixing, too. --Milkbreath 14:09, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, that's better. I'll check the above your concerned items. — Indon (reply) — 16:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last minute, but... 

message: hi indon and everyone,
i don'thave a particular interest in this ethnic group and only came across it because it is today's featured article (well done all). i have a suggestion for achange, however. the sentence "By the 1990s, when tourism peaked, Toraja society had evolved significantly, from its agricultural beginnings—in which social life and customs were outgrowths of the Aluk To Dolo—into a largely Christian society." is objectionable to me for its reference to and implicit endorsement of social darwinist ideas. as a cultural anthropologist i recognise that all societies and cultures are in a constant state of change, and reject (as do most current thinkers) the supposition that cultures evolve along a continuum from 'primitive' to 'civilised', which is ultimately what the use of the word 'evolve' here implies. can i therefore suggest, to keep the article neutral and in line with current thinking on the subject that the sentence is changed to read "By the 1990s, when tourism peaked, Toraja society had changed significantly, from an agrarian model—in which social life and customs were outgrowths of the Aluk To Dolo—to a largely Christian society." thanks Machyak 03:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with that. I'll change it. Thanks — Indon (reply) — 07:29, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sugestion from Machyak

message: Sentences such as "However, tourist imageries have made Torajans concealing their social status."  need cleaning up. I'd do it myself but I have to go... Rich Farmbrough, 10:03 12 August 2007 (GMT).
:Yes, please do so. — Indon (reply) — 10:10, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup

message: I can't resist complimenting those who spent a lot of time writing this article. It's very good and definitely deserves its featured status. Basser g 14:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Basser g. — Indon (reply) — 16:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Excellent article

message: http://books.google.com/books?id=9EUn6qoAcnIC&pg=PA198&dq=toraja+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dMIUcalI6bH0AGE2ICQDA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=toraja%20chinese&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=9i9e3j2qPCAC&pg=PA270&dq=toraja+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dMIUcalI6bH0AGE2ICQDA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=toraja%20chinese&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=sVsAFeo1KjgC&pg=PA182&dq=toraja+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dMIUcalI6bH0AGE2ICQDA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=toraja%20chinese&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=4mNC0FljEiQC&pg=PA19&dq=toraja+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dMIUcalI6bH0AGE2ICQDA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=toraja%20chinese&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=WpB2rMwY4vgC&pg=PA242&dq=toraja+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dMIUcalI6bH0AGE2ICQDA&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=toraja%20chinese&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=dH_zO-_DXPAC&pg=PA209&dq=toraja+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dMIUcalI6bH0AGE2ICQDA&ved=0CFwQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=toraja%20chinese&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=H0PXkzgcdRQC&pg=PA77&dq=toraja+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dMIUcalI6bH0AGE2ICQDA&ved=0CGEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=toraja%20chinese&f=false
Rajmaan (talk) 09:27, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Toraja Chinese relations

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I would  like to see some indication of pronunciation especially of the name Toraja. Given the ambivalent use of the letter "j" in Indonesia from the Dutch era "y" pronunciation to the modern "dj", how is the name "Toraja" pronounced? The spelling seems unchanged from the Dutch era. So is it "toradja" or "toraya"? The same would be helpful for any vernacular words/name that include the letter "j". I went through all the linked language/dialect articles - most of which are stubs - and found no help their either. Ptilinopus (talk) 20:50, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure of the phonic spelling for Toraja, but "ToraJA" is pronounced the same way as in the English word for "JArring", isolating the R in "jarring". Hope this makes sense. -Jeblat (talk) 02:50, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have an added an Indonesian IPA entry to Tana Toraja, maybe we can adopt it here. I don't know if there is an established English pronunciation. I use a final AH sound also in English, as described by Jeblat, but I could imagine that some pronounce it as rhyming with rajah (thus a final schwa). –Austronesier (talk) 17:41, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: There are some discrepancies between this article and the FA criteria. Verifiability is an issue, with 19 citation needed tags in the article. Not all of the sources cited seem to be high-quality reliable sources as required by the FA criteria, for example these. (t · c) buidhe 20:19, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:URFA/2020|FA sweeps]] 

message: This addition is supposed to be based on
*
However, much of the added text is not supported by the source:
* – They didn't. Rappoport describes on pp. 386–387 how Dutch missionaries regulated which traditional ritual practices were admissible for converts to Christianity. In the case of funeral rituals, they completely failed, but many other practices have only survived among the minority that chose not to convert.
* – Again, no. Depending on which party was in power in The Hague, the Dutch were more interested in putting the people of the East Indies into taxable labor, whereas providing access to some sort of basic education to the masses was a controversial topic, including the role of missionaries in the latter agenda. But schools were indeed a vital tool for the dissemination of Christianity, and this is what Rappoport refers to when she vaguely writes that the Dutch "impos[ed] schools and Christianity".
* – Two fatal errors here.
**First, chronology. (Balinese) Hinduism was fully acknowledged by the state in 1962. At that very time and in the following years, Torajans rapidly turned to Christianity when they witnessed the terror inflicted by Kahar Muzakkar's Darul Islam troups in the neighboring Luwu area. This is alluded to by Rappoport when she talks about "fear of Muslim encroachment". The recognition of the traditional Aluk faith as "Hinduism" came later. It was a clever trick, exploiting the ignorance of the mostly Javanese regulators in Jakarta who thought of everything that preceded the spread of Islam in the archipelago as "Hinduism".
**Secondly, Aluk is anything but similar to Hinduism; it is a genuinely indigenous belief system, and some aspects of its rituals must appear quite unpleasant to mainstream Hindus (such as the mass slaughter of cows and buffaloes during a funerary rite). Rappoport does not assert such a "similarity".
As a first remedy, I will remove the unsupported/distorted portions but leave the correct statements that frame them ( and ). But I will temporarily move them to a better position in the text.
In the long run, it would be great to have a subsection about the Christianization of the Torajans, but it should be based on sources that (unlike Rappoport) cover the topic not just in passing.  – Austronesier (talk) 15:01, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misrepresentation of Rappoport (2004)