Talk:Rudolf Vrba/Archive 1

message: (Hit again by the page uploading while I was still typing into the edit summary.  I guess this is better here anyway:) The sentence "The Vrba-Wetzler report was in the hands of the Hungarian Jewish leadership in late April or early May, 1944..." is a summary of Bauer's conclusions in his book cited on the page and is heavily documented by him.  --Zerotalk 09:45, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: * I'm writing this without having looked at Polyphem's recent changes, so I don't know whether or not I will support them.  When you (Slim) came to this article a few days ago, everything in the article except the date of death was derived from the academic sources listed at the bottom of the page.  There was one incorrect datum (the number "5" of Jews who escaped from Auschwitz; actually it was at least 12), but otherwise it matched the best available sources.  Then you arrived armed with some newspaper story and proceeded to make changes that included replacing proven historical facts by incorrect claims.  You did this without explaining it or even noting it in your edit summaries ("expanding" doesn't cover it).  You should have at least asked where that material came from before replacing it since the the presence of the sources including a book by the foremost Holocaust historian alive today should have alerted you to the possibility that the material here came from good sources.  I would have been happy to oblige and even to send you scans of articles you can't obtain, as other editors can testify.
* I'm not claiming that none of your additions were any good; some were obviously fine.
* Your statements above about "reliable sources" are hard to take seriously.  Please look at WP:RS#History for a discussion of what constitutes a reliable source in History.  Yes, we are supposed to evaluate the reliability of our sources; that's why the major part of WP:RS is devoted to giving advice on how to make that evaluation.  It is not the same as evaluating the information, which I agree we generally shouldn't do.  Newspapers are a good source for contemporary history, like what happened yesterday, but when ordinary journalists write articles on older events they don't have any special claim to reliability and they often make mistakes.  When an expert source and a non-expert source disagree on something, we should go with the expert source.  That's not only common sense but the clear message of WP:RS.  --Zerotalk 03:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The main newspaper source that I arrived "armed with," as you put it, was written by a journalist who interviewed Vrba, so it's an excellent source. In future, Zero, please cite your sources throughout the text. If you only add them to the references section at the end, it's impossible to know what's sourced and what isn't. As for your interpretation of RS, I'm not going to argue with you about it here. All I can say is that I started to make a series of edits, which would have taken several hours, but I was stopped by reverting and deleting, even though I made clear on the talk page that I had only just started. It would have made more sense for you to wait until I had finished, then you could have judged the end result. SlimVirgin (talk) 10:34, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Jay, I've removed the anon's recent edits, because the way you wrote the controversy section was very balanced and complete without them. I feel the new edits made it too long, and were about Eichmann rather than Vrba. Perhaps the Life quote could go in a footnote? Otherwise, the section is looking really good. You've done excellent work on it. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Life quotes were from an unreliable source, too much about Eichmann, and repeated other information in the article.  I'll try to incorporate the point it is making. Jayjg (talk) 20:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anon edits 

message: I'm just about to go overseas (should be packing) so I have no time to edit.  I just want to note that Bauer's 2002 book "rethinking the holocaust" (all lowercase on the book!) has a chapter on the V-W report and there he revises some of the opinions he gave earlier in "Jews for Sale" on the basis of things he learnt since 1997. --Zerotalk 03:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Zero. I'll have a look for it. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:04, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bauer 

message: The first Jewish escapee was two days before them (on April 5, 1944), a Jew named Siegfried Lederer, together with --- and assisted by --- an SS NCO named Viktor Pestek who had fallen in love with one of the prisoners. (Lederer was disguised in an SS uniform.) He got to Theresienstadt, and tried to get the inmates to listen to him, without success.
See, e.g., http://www.holocaustcenterpgh.net/4-4.html 
(I was in a lecture by Ruth Linn some days ago, which is how I know of Lederer at all.)
Also, I do not think Rudolf Vrba was ever at Weizmann --- but rather at the Israel Institute for Biological Research, in Nes Ziona (just north of the Weizmann Institute) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.77.4.43 (talk • contribs) 
:Thanks, 132. I'll take a look at the link later. It's not letting me in for some reason. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  (Barely) not the first escapees 

message: In reference to the passage:
:"Although Vrba's information arrived in time to save the 437,000 Hungarian Jews who were deported to Auschwitz, that period was one of intense political turmoil in Hungary"
I think this was originally a typo since it seems like the rest of the article was saying it was too late for the ones already deported.  Am I wrong here?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 06:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Moshe, thanks for noticing this. I had just written it badly. I meant to say that the report had arrived before the deportations began i.e. in time to save the Jews who were deported, but unfortunately it didn't (save them), perhaps because it wasn't distributed early enough, although some historians argue it would have made no difference if it had been distributed, because people would not have believed it anyway. I've rephrased. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Although info arived in tome? or unfortunetly it didn't? 

message: The article states that The 32-page Vrba-Wetzler Report [2] [3] was the first detailed information about Auschwitz to reach the Allies. Yet, through Witold Pilecki the Allies had already since 1941 detailed information from inside Auschwitz. His written report describing the genocide taking place in Auschwitz (Witold's report) was sent in 1943 to the Allies who didn't do anything with it.
:We should probably add that it was the most detailed and the first to be believed. As I understand it, the Polish report was not regarded as credible for whatever reason. SlimVirgin (talk) 14:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First detailed information?

message: Has anyone considered nominating this article for featured article status? Looking it over, I think it would almost definitely pass inspection. Deyyaz [ Talk | Contribs ] 19:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And so it is! Congrats to the editors involved.--Mantanmoreland 17:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, thank you! I only noticed when I saw this post, so you were the one to pass on the good news, Mantan. ;-D SlimVirgin (talk) 21:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured article 

message: I recently noticed that someone with IP 137.158.128.105 modified Vrba's page, inserting the following:
"Vrba escaped by flying away in the time machine that he made from the human soap and ashes that he found in the gas chambers, which explains the remains of any human remains actually being found atAuschwitz after the war. He also wrote "Sergeant Pepper" in 1943 whilst at Auschwitz, which was later passed on to John Lennon, who basically copied it note-for-note in the 1960s. He never received due credit for having basically invented the psychedelic music genre, and his heirs should be backpaid for "Pepper"'s royalties from the 60's! Accusations that Vrba was schizophrenic and suffered from hallucinations and delusions are just anti-semitic lies made by Neo-Nazis and terrorists."
Thankfully, Kingboyk noticed this vandalism and reverted to the previous version within less than 2 hours (thanks Kingboyk!). I looked at the list of edits that came from IP 137.158.128.105 and it seems that this guy has edited several Holocaust related entries and inserted this sort of vandalism in those entries as well. I'm new to Wikipedia but since we're fortunate here to have some very experienced users editing this page, allow me to ask: should we report this? to whom? how? Guidance from experienced Wikipedia users would be appreciated.
Escamoso 11:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All you can do is grit your teeth and revert. I'm surprised there isn't more vandalism, given the nature of the subject matter.--Mantanmoreland 17:35, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Nevermind, someone got it.  Thanks!--Teamla 22:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism of this page - should we do something about it? 

message: I just stumbled upon this excellent article, and I had a question. Vrba's memoir, which I read years ago and still have somewhere, was entitled "I Cannot Forgive" when it was published years ago and still has that title in US editions. It stuck out in my mind not just because the book was so memorable but because it was not a very good title. I see here that it is listed in the footnotes with a different title, "I escaped from Auschwitz." Shouldn't it be referred to by its original title? Note the listing on Amazon.. Someone points out in a "product Wiki" at the bottom of the Amazon page, correctly, that the book was originally entitled "I cannot forgive." I think use of the newer title is a bit confusing.--Mantanmoreland 16:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It has been republished, along with some very useful appendices (e.g. the full Vrba-Wetzler report), so the new edition is the one we're using as a reference. However, we should make a note in the References section that it was originally called I cannot forgive. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I just checked, and we do. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thanks for clarifying. I think the "I cannot forgive" part may have come first in the original title, but I'd have to haul out the book and it is buried somewhere.--Mantanmoreland 16:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book title 

message: It is really a good article. But should not we restrict size to the recommended level! FAs going well beyond the size recommended does not look nice, though I am not sure of the same. --Bhadani 16:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, Bhadani. I don't think there is a recommended level. I saw a discussion about length recently on the FA page, and people were saying articles should be as long as they need to be (with the stress on need, of course). SlimVirgin (talk) 17:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks SV. Now, a doubt has been cleared. The page is really nice and I learnt a lot - though I had heard the name before. --Bhadani 17:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I am growing older. I forgotr to congratulate your and Jayjg, and all others on the nice work. Congrats. --Bhadani 17:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We the bankers say this as Need based contents. --Bhadani 17:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the congrats, which are much appreciated. :-) SlimVirgin (talk) 17:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Good article

message: A milestone! Really a great job. --Bhadani 02:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A milstone

message: The article The Vrba-Wetzler report appears to be redundant. Can certain portions be merged?
:"Redundant" in what sense of the word?  Paul Beardsell 07:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Redundant article The Vrba-Wetzler report

message: Usually in a biographical article where the subject is deceased, the circumstances of the death are given. Icemuon 13:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing that out. It was in an earlier version then was moved during a series of edits, and not put back. It's there now. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Circumstances of death 

message: ... the tortuous second paragraph of "Vrba's accusations". There's a long, meaningless sentence in there that smacks of "too many cooks". I don't know the story well enough to do it. Sfahey 14:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is the sentence you don't like? SlimVirgin (talk) 18:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can someone fix ... =

message: The mention of sexual orientation in this sentence doesn't look quite kosher, but I don't know enough about the subject to rip it out myself: "He decided to return to Slovakia, but was caught by homosexual Hungarian border guards while crossing back over the Hungary-Slovakia border."  --Robertb-dc 17:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Robert. Not quite kosher is right. :-D SlimVirgin (talk) 18:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks Bob. The Hebrew is just his name; the other stuff has gone, I think — at least for now. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible vandal? 

message: Hi, This note is regarding the sentence that reads: "It is regarded as one of the most important documents of the 20th century[5][6] because it was the first detailed information about the camp to reach the Allies that they accepted as credible.[7]"
*The sentence uses a "weasel word" formulation "it is regarded" ("Here are some weasel words that are often found in Wikipedia articles:"...is widely regarded as..."...From Weasel words wiki-page). The wiki-page on "weasel words" goes on to say "It is better to put a name and a face on an opinion than to assign an opinion to an anonymous source." An editor has pointed out that this sentence is footnoted.  However, the footnoted sources (BC bookworld author bank, from abcbookword.com, and Jewish News Weekly of Northern California) are not sources that would normally be used in an academic context. Wikipedia's verifiability policy states that Information on Wikipedia must be reliable and verifiable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. As such, it would help if we could find a more scholarly source (e.g., a journal article, encyclopedia article, etc).Nazamo 02:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Improved source needed for sentence

message: In 1942 Karski reported to the Polish, British and U.S. governments on the situation in Poland, especially the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto and the Holocaust of the Jews. He met with Polish politicians in exile including the prime minister, as well as members of political parties such as the PPS, SN, SP, SL, Jewish Bund and Poalej-Syjon. He also spoke to Anthony Eden, the British foreign secretary, and included a detailed statement on what he had seen in Warsaw and Bełżec. He then traveled to the United States and reported to President Franklin D. Roosevelt. His report was a major factor in informing the West, but no action followed.
In July 1943, Karski again personally reported to Roosevelt about the situation in Poland. He also met with many other government and civic leaders in the United States, including Felix Frankfurter, Cordell Hull, William Joseph Donovan, Samuel Cardinal Stritch, and Stephen Wise. Karski also presented his report to media, bishops of various denominations, members of the Hollywood film industry and artists, but without success. Many of those he spoke to did not believe him, or supposed that his testimony was much exaggerated or was propaganda from the Polish government in exile. It is possible, however, that Karski's descriptions influenced FDR to create a War Refugee Board several months later in January of 1944. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.156.86.41 (talk) 21:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  In 1942 Karski reported to the Polish, British and U.S. governments on the situation in Poland 

message: Witold Pilecki (May 13, 1901 – May 25, 1948; pronounced ['vitɔld pi'leʦki]; codenames Roman Jezierski, Tomasz Serafiński, Druh, Witold) was a soldier of the Second Polish Republic, the founder of the resistance movement, Secret Polish Army (Tajna Armia Polska), and a member of the Home Army (Armia Krajowa). During World War II, he became the only known person to volunteer to be imprisoned at Auschwitz Concentration Camp. While there, he organized inmate resistance, and as early as 1940, informed the Western Allies of Nazi Germany's camp atrocities. He escaped from Auschwitz in 1943 and took part in the Warsaw Uprising (August–October 1944). Pilecki was executed in 1948 by the communists. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.156.86.41 (talk) 21:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Witold Pilecki a member of the Armia Krajowa (Home Army)informed the Western Allies of Nazi Germany's camp atrocities 

message: Editor Slimvirgin, please stop removing sourced material. --72.209.9.246 (talk) 01:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've going to treat this as vandalism, as you're following me around with this and one other IP address. I've just checked the source and he doesn't make that claim, at least not on that page. If you think differently, supply a citation. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 01:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of sourced material

message: Under cross examination by Douglas Christie, counsel for Ernst Zundel in the 1985 "False News trial" in Toronto, Canada, Rudolf Vrba was obliged to concede, under oath, that he relied on "poetic licence" to convey his Auschwitz experiences as related in his book, "I can not forgive" .  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marloe (talk • contribs) 18:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not quite kosher 

message: The image :File:"Canada"Auschwitz.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --23:30, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with File:"Canada"Auschwitz.jpg