Talk:Joyce Banda

message: Shouldn't Banda be President of Malawi? GoodDay (talk) 18:31, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Where are the citations for this? The is apparently a power struggle under way, has she made a speech in which this has been announced - the death claim still has not been confirmed by anyone willing to give their name?? All a bit premature imo - Youreallycan 18:36, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just curious about how the succession works. Does the Vice President become President or continue as Vice President, merely assuming presidential powers & duties. GoodDay (talk) 18:38, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There hasn't even been an official government announcement of the Presidents death yet  - I read something that said another person has been taking on the replacement of the president when he was away and that  Banda had been sidelined and pushed out - she was going to mount a challenge against the president in 2014 - its not clear at all that she is actually acting president at this time  - As I understand it from reading sources 0- vice president is according to the constitution automatically promoted to acting President, however , the constitution appears to be a bit adaptable in cases of dictator like activity.Youreallycan 18:43, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm assuming the confusion has something to do with the fact that Banda is a female. GoodDay (talk) 18:51, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the confusion, if there is any is coming from the fact that we are reporting things that have not been officially verified - five hours ago from AFP - notice the method of reporting, "appears to be set to become" - Truth is - this person has not been confirmed as anything - there is a campaign to shoe her in rather than the Presidents brother who has been fulfilling the acting post for some time - I imagine there is a lot of twists and turns in this yet - we need to stop reporting uncited and unannounced claims as if fact though - Youreallycan 18:57, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

text: The contention is not because of her gender, GoodDay, but rather because she and the late President had a very public political dispute (reportedly precipitated by his desire to shove her aside in favor of his little brother in the run-up to the 2014 presidential election), with her forming her own opposition political party; and his partisans in the DPP appear determined to find some excuse to exclude her from office despite the clear language of the Constitution of Malawi. --Orange Mike | Talk 22:48, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Check 'Main Page', the Malawi President has died. GoodDay (talk) 19:38, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

text: In otherwords, if she's sworn in, she'd be President, not just a mere Acting President. GoodDay (talk) 19:41, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: She's not President in any sense at all. She isn't exercising any presidential powers. She has a constitutional claim to the office, but that's not the same thing. Everyking (talk) 19:57, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Would that make her president designate, then? FormerIP (talk) 19:59, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

text: I'm just curious about the Malawi Constitution concerning presidential succession. GoodDay (talk) 20:10, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think your technically right when you refer to her as, president designate . I also think Everyking is right when he says, she has a constitutional claim but has not been officially awarded the position  - Youreallycan 20:14, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

text: I also wondered that, but it seems to be quite a common name. She is Banda by marriage. Hastings Banda had no children. That's all I know. FormerIP (talk) 21:10, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't it be included in the introduction that she is NOT relative to Hastings Banda? I mean taken into account that in developing countries political dynasties are so rampant that some reader might also tend to think Joyce is related to Hastings. 49.145.68.107 (talk) 23:09, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: One youd need a source (they could be related in a non-nuclar family way) and a reason to mention it as notable. Alternatively. a hat note on the top of the page "nto to be confused with" would be okeyLihaas (talk) 03:26, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, since the educated readership might then suspect Joyce as relative of Hastings - political dynasties are highly prevalent in developing countries - I note in the introduction would be noteworthy. Look at the example of Armenian politics: Prime minister and president both have the same family name, Sargsyan. Both are not related to each other. I hope you get the point. 49.145.68.107 (talk) 11:38, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

text: It's also worth noting that Joyce B was succeeded as Foreign Minister by Etta Banda. Again, the question arises whether they are related. Grutness...wha? 08:16, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: We can't answer either question in the article unless we know what the answer is, obviously. Formerip (talk) 12:50, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Acting President or President? 

message: I think the reader needs to know?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.129.54.220 (talk) 20:42, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I also wondered that, but it seems to be quite a common name. She is Banda by marriage. Hastings Banda had no children. That's all I know. FormerIP (talk) 21:10, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't it be included in the introduction that she is NOT relative to Hastings Banda? I mean taken into account that in developing countries political dynasties are so rampant that some reader might also tend to think Joyce is related to Hastings. 49.145.68.107 (talk) 23:09, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: One youd need a source (they could be related in a non-nuclar family way) and a reason to mention it as notable. Alternatively. a hat note on the top of the page "nto to be confused with" would be okeyLihaas (talk) 03:26, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, since the educated readership might then suspect Joyce as relative of Hastings - political dynasties are highly prevalent in developing countries - I note in the introduction would be noteworthy. Look at the example of Armenian politics: Prime minister and president both have the same family name, Sargsyan. Both are not related to each other. I hope you get the point. 49.145.68.107 (talk) 11:38, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

text: It's also worth noting that Joyce B was succeeded as Foreign Minister by Etta Banda. Again, the question arises whether they are related. Grutness...wha? 08:16, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: We can't answer either question in the article unless we know what the answer is, obviously. Formerip (talk) 12:50, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Joyce Banda related to Hastings Banda? 

message: Best to remove this part until a reliable source (pre-2011 per edit text request) emerge. The trouble is that all publications I find have evidently taken Wikipedia to be gospel. Talk about a debasement of purpose! Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 20:54, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed with Greenshed, 2 sources state this...its also synthesis on youreallycan to presume that sources are all copying WP and we need a pre-inaugaration source. Life does exist outside WP to gather information. Nothing suggests malawivoice is a mirror to parrot this and certainly not BBC. Take the two to RSN if in doubt.Lihaas (talk) 09:33, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Date of birth

message: *Woodrow Wilson, USA, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:55, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Perhaps there are more. In the brief study I have done, most infoboxes do not include the ordinal number with the office. But, the number is included in some. Thus the discussion will continue, I suppose. drs (talk) 15:25, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: They are justified where they are (semi-)officially used. In the other cases they are to be removed. Chávez was particularly absurd. Depending on how you count he could be any number between 30 and 100 or so. Mewulwe (talk) 15:32, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean semi-officially used? drs (talk) 16:03, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Like in the U.S.; I cited earlier all the occurrences of the numbers on whitehouse.gov, even though there may be no legal basis for it. Funny sidenote: when you look who added the number to the Chávez article, guess who you find: . Mewulwe (talk) 16:07, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The plot thickens: . This is all the work of a single editor, who then has the nerve to justify this by saying "but it's used everywhere else"! Now it's obvious why he is so irrationally sticking to this. He can't possibly admit to himself that all this "work" he did was a waste of time. Mewulwe (talk) 16:14, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Dare I repeat myself: If you can get some editors to support your position (i.e. consensus building), then I'll leave the infobox bare. GoodDay (talk) 19:55, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: PS: Indeed, over the years, I've been numbering Heads of State & Government infoboxes across Wikipedia. However, when I'm faced with opposition from a number of editors, not just one, I don't press the numbering anymore & move on. So far, you're the only one who's opposing me at this article. GoodDay (talk) 19:59, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: So you admit you faced opposition on this before. Since this is one and the same issue, anyone who ever opposed you on this would oppose you here too. You are the one who's on his own here (aside from some stalkers who have no actual interest in the issue, came from other issues and just revert me out of spite, but aren't making any more of a rational argument than you do). Mewulwe (talk) 21:22, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You're the lone editor who's opposing the numbering 'here'. BTW - one article at a time, please don't take our dispute to the Venezuelan & Iranian Presidents articles. GoodDay (talk) 21:46, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Mewulwe, you're not allowed to pick and choose from the people commenting here, nor are you allowed to invent a theoretical group of people who would also oppose this position. If you think there should be some sort of centralized rule, you should pursue it at WT:MOSBIO or some other appropriate place. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:28, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: What picking and choosing? I made statements that are factually correct; if you disagree be specific what you disagree with. I can detail the circumstances regarding every particular editor on request. Nor do I "invent a theoretical group of people" - others have reverted GoodDay in other articles on the exact same issue (links on request). It is true that the issue should be discussed at a centralized place, but the burden of obtaining a consensus for the numbers should be on GoodDay, since he practically on his own spread them everywhere where they otherwise wouldn't be. Mewulwe (talk) 00:14, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

text: *Mewulwe, is there a centralized rule that you can cite showing that the use of ordinal numbers in an office section of an infobox violates Wikipedia's manual of style? DonaldRichardSands (talk) 00:34, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

text: I am convinced, and I can defend it. Now tell me why your position should be the default here? Mewulwe (talk) 00:32, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Adding it up on my fingers, Banda comes out as the 4th President of Malawi. GoodDay (talk) 00:48, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Oh, and since you reverted there too, kindly demonstrate how Chávez is objectively the 61st president of Venezuela. This should be interesting. Mewulwe (talk) 00:35, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *We need to seek help beyond us. A dispute resolution process should help. There is no WP rule controlling the use of ordinals in the office section of the infobox. Logic and knowing you are right is not enough. We need to see a rule or policy statement. drs (talk) 00:46, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

text: FWIW, Chave'z predecessor is numbered as the 60th President of Venezuela. GoodDay (talk) 00:48, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if you base it on that, demonstrate how the predecessor is the 60th. Mewulwe (talk) 10:46, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Ask the editors who numbered all of Chavez's predecessors. Furthermore, this should be discussed at that article. GoodDay (talk) 19:59, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If you based your edit on that, you have to take the responsibility. Wikipedia itself is not an admissible source. So, bottom line, you don't have a source. It will thus be removed. Mewulwe (talk) 20:11, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you going to remove the numberings from all the Venezuelan Presidents articles? GoodDay (talk) 20:15, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, they all need to go, and not just the Venezuelan ones. But it's not my obligation to clean that mess up all on my own. Mewulwe (talk) 20:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's best that you put citation tags on all those articles, as I'm not the only editor to have numbered them. It's also best you wait 'atleast' a week, before you begin deletions. Removing only Chavez's numbering is likely to get it restored by someone else. They'll see his predecessors numbered & become curious. GoodDay (talk) 20:32, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

text: In essence, DonaldRichardSands is right. Mewulwe, whenever you feel like gathering up this silent consensus you imply exists to oppose the numbering of items that appear in a discrete, non-overlapping series, please do so. WP:RFC is a good first start, unless you think this is more of a style than content issue, in which case I recommend a discussion at WP:MOSBIO.  Should either of those avenues fail to produce clear results, there are further options open after that point. Until then, I see a very clear "unanimous minus one" consensus in favor of keeping the numbers there.  Qwyrxian (talk) 03:11, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Since only GoodDay and I are actively in dispute, "unanimous minus one" is the case both ways. To suggest that some drive-by comments by people demonstrably just pursuing me from other issues should change the situation is ludicrous. And even counting them would not establish a consensus but only a 3-1 or so majority, and since we are supposed to discuss, not vote on, issues, the weight of arguments is by any reasonable standard squarely on my side. I made a whole number of points GoodDay has not responded to at all, instead he repeats this silly mantra "I counted them on my fingers! She IS the 4th president!" which I explained to him multiple times is not the point. Perhaps you can demonstrate somehow this consensus you imply exists for the numbers, by showing all the people who have defended them beyond ILIKEIT. Looks like zero to me. Oh, and assuming that infoboxes are supposed to contain standardized information (and besides that, should contain information which is maintainable and might not have to be removed in the future), we are of course not talking about "discrete, non-overlapping series" here. Just because the series of Malawi presidents as of now is unambiguous, doesn't mean it belongs in the infobox when equivalents cannot be added to most other countries and even for Malawi the situation sooner or later will become ambiguous. Mewulwe (talk) 10:46, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

text: *Mewulwe, if you examine the comments, you will notice that several of us editors do not find the use of an ordinal number in the infobox office offensive. Several of us are okay with the addition of the ordinal number. An addition which does not violate stated Wikipedia policy should have more weight than the deleting of that same addition. For example, if I make an addition which I think is sensible, and there is no clear policy against such an addition, it should be allowed to stand until the opposing editor(s) can get a near consensus to remove the addition. It seems discourteous, or uncivil, to remove something otherwise. Let's discuss it on the talk page and strive for consensus before removing policy compliant additions. Thanks. drs (talk) 13:54, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have. And it's not policy compliant. The Chávez number is patently unverifiable, yet it is being restored as much as the Banda one. And challenged additions need to be defended, nowhere does policy say "you can add whatever you want, refuse to defend it, and it can only be removed by consensus." Edits can be freely made, including removals, and if an edit war develops, both sides need to discuss. I am, he isn't, that's all there is to it. Mewulwe (talk) 15:08, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Let's focus on the Joyce Banda article. There is no policy I have read where an ordinal number in the infobox is inappropriate. As you have admitted, the 4th can be verified in the Joyce Banda situation. You are now discussing with me, not GoodDay. I am more flexible on this than GoodDay, it seems, but I see no policy against the use of an ordinal in the infobox. I realize that you don't like the ordinal in the infobox and you have presented some logic for its removal, but it is not compelling logic, IMO. Let's start an RfC and get some more thoughts. drs (talk) 15:17, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Infoboxes convey standardized information for a set of related articles, in this case political officeholders. They are not for random pieces of information that only apply to one or to a small subset of the articles. Numbers cannot be objectively determined in the great majority of cases. Therefore such "self-counted" numbers should not be used at all, especially since the impression would be that wherever numbers are given, they represent an established system like in the U.S. The average reader who sees numbers in some cases and not in others would not figure that numbers are only used where the count is unambiguous. Mewulwe (talk) 16:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The numbering of Heads of state & government article infoboxes, tends to be decided by the participating editors of that article. GoodDay (talk) 20:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Examples of ordinal number use in infoboxes

message: *There is no policy I have read where an ordinal number in the infobox is inappropriate. Mewulwe, you have admitted, the 4th can be verified in the Joyce Banda situation. You are now discussing with me, not GoodDay. I am more flexible on this than GoodDay, it seems, but I see no policy against the use of an ordinal in the infobox. I realize that you don't like the ordinal in the infobox and you have presented some logic for its removal, but it is not compelling logic, IMO. drs (talk) 15:17, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Infoboxes convey standardized information for a set of related articles, in this case political officeholders. They are not for random pieces of information that only apply to one or to a small subset of the articles. Numbers cannot be objectively determined in the great majority of cases. Therefore such "self-counted" numbers should not be used at all, especially since the impression would be that wherever numbers are given, they represent an established system like in the U.S. The average reader who sees numbers in some cases and not in others would not figure that numbers are only used where the count is unambiguous. Mewulwe (talk) 16:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The numbering of Heads of state & government article infoboxes, tends to be decided by the participating editors of that article. GoodDay (talk) 20:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia style, the use of ordinals in the office section of infoboxes

message: Does the ordinal in the infobox interfere with the function of DBpedia? Can DBpedia still gather President info even if it is '4th President' rather than just 'President'. Or, will DBpedia just look for all the '4th Presidents'? If that happened, then there certainly would be compelling logic to remove it. drs (talk) 15:36, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Related Questions, # 1

message: We should be showing that the vice presidency is vacant. Instead of creating the impression that the office was abolished, upon Bander's succession to the presidency. GoodDay (talk) 06:54, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Dont see where tatimpression of abolishign comes from...anyhooe its solved now ;)Lihaas (talk) 07:32, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Banda's vice president 

message: Just because media portreys her as the second female head of state in the continent after Ellen Johnson Sirleaf it is not a credible source. Actually Ellen herself is not even Liberia's first female head of state (she is just Liberia's and Africa's first democratically elected female head of state). In chronological order these are the women heads of state in Africa till now: 1st Carmen Pereira in Guinea-Bissau, 2nd Sylvie Kinigi in Burundi, 3rd Ruth Perry in Liberia, 4th Ellen Johnson Sirleaf in Liberia (first elected), 5th Rose Francine Rogombé in Gabon, 6th Monique Ohsan Bellepeau in Mauritius and finally 7th Joyce Banda in Malawi... So please stop giving false information about Banda being the second woman president in Africa.
For more look at this: List of elected or appointed female heads of state  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.171.153.130 (talk) 21:18, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reworded this statement accordly to show she is one of two incumbent female heads of state in Africa, which I think is what might have been meant originally. I♦A 02:54, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Just in time. I was about to mention Cleopatra. Formerip (talk) 03:30, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

text: And another, reword, adding "elected" (Monique Ohsan Bellepeau is acting president of Mauritius). I♦A 02:55, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry but Banda is not elected (that should be quite obvious)Lihaas (talk) 03:29, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: . I see you have removed that whole statement, and I am fine with that. *removes page from watchlist* I♦A 05:16, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Just dint think we needd all the caveats and would be easier. Statement doesnt seem true at all ;)Lihaas (talk) 06:03, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Um - Carmen Pereira was not the first African female head of state - you forget earlier leaders such as the three Queens Ranavalona of Madagascar. Grutness...wha? 08:14, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Sorry - I ewas going by the header of this section and the first sentence of it ("Just because media portreys her as the second female head of state in the continent after Ellen Johnson Sirleaf it is not a credible source.") Grutness...wha? 22:40, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *It is important to include in the article her role and standing in women's issues in Africa. It seems obvious that she is an important woman of Africa. Her standing and status is important to the article and I believe that we need to inform our readership of such. After all the tweaking of the exact wording, her standing in the women's issue(s) of Africa must not be lost. drs (talk) 16:48, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Banda is not the second female head of state in Africa. 

message: A portrait/photo always adds to an article, especially for people becoming increasingly important. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 08:00, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed so - I've added a  request at the top of this page. Grutness...wha? 09:59, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures and Portrait-photo 

message: I have looked over Mewulwe's reverting record on this article and think it is time that we discuss this editor's record in particular. If we really have an interest in this article, let's work in a positive way to improve it. The Joyce Banda article deserves better, don't you think? drs (talk) 22:05, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I agree with you, this Talk page isn't really intended to discuss an editor's conduct. For that, you'd have to go to WP:ANI or another dispute resolution forum.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:09, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Bbb23, thanks for the advice. I was first just trying to get Mewulwe's attention. Perhaps, I could have done that on M's talk page. I do appreciate your guidance. drs (talk) 22:14, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Eventually, you will dig yourself in so deep that someone will report you to WP:ANI. First, Donald didn't restore anything. He just put in the source in the first place. I and another editor restored the source. Second, what's your basis for saying the source is "poor quality" and uses Wikipedia as a source? I agree with you that the source isn't necessary, but it's a judgment call as to how many sources are needed for a particular assertion, and given how ridiculously controversial you made this birthdate thing out to be, editors are more inclined to include multiple sources.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:27, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: He didn't come up with the source, it was mentioned on the BLP discussion. Whether it was in the article before is irrelevant. But well done nitpicking about the word "restore" - replace it with "put in" for no substantive difference. In the BLP discussion I showed how that series uses Wikipedia, which should already disqualify it. And the date was only controversial precisely because these kinds of unreliable sources were offered for it; with the Malawian sources the date is no longer controversial, so it's absurd to add the unreliable ones to "bolster" the reliable ones, especially when your source doesn't have the given date 12 April 1950 at all! Mewulwe (talk) 22:48, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Pointless to argue with you but the fact that a source (or the series) sometimes cites to Wikipedia doesn't mean that in this instance it is getting its facts from Wikipedia. Indeed, the fact that it openly cites to Wikipedia tends to indicate that when it doesn't cite to Wikipedia, it is getting its facts from somewhere else. Many things cite to Wikipedia. The issue is whether a source we are using is in fact citing to Wikipdia, and in this instance, as in so many other instances, it is just you saying so.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Mewulwe, sources do not need to state what it's used as a source. Sources are either found to be reliable, and we use them, or they are not reliable, period. If you feel a source is not reliable, please take that issue to the RS board and see what others think. --Mollskman (talk) 22:36, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I know reading is hard, but keep trying. I can only assume you missed the word "for"... and no, a source can be as reliable as it may be, we don't just put it randomly in articles. It has to be put behind a specific fact and it has to actually confirm that fact, which yours doesn't... Mewulwe (talk) 22:48, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Talk about not reading, the italics is a direct copy and paste from your post above, YOU are the one that left out "for", that is why I didn't see your point. --Mollskman (talk) 23:49, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Not that it's important, but Mewulwe did include the word "for" above. That said, I'd forget about it as it's not worth your (Mollskman) time.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:55, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: My mistake. I will not comment here again. --Mollskman (talk) 00:42, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You should comment whenever you have something to say. We all make mistakes, and yours was very minor. I was reading an article this week about computer monitors and the negative effects they can have on our eyes if we spend too much time in front of them. Like many people, I use a computer at work, and then I come home and spend far too much time on Wikipedia. By the time I'm done, my eyes are tired and they burn (they're burning right now). I need to get out more.  --Bbb23 (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting of Reliable Sources  

message: *
This citation has been used in the Joyce Banda article. One editor has challenged it. Before resorting to the reliable sources noticeboard, maybe we can examine here reasons for why this source is, or isn't, a reliable source.
;Reasons for considering it a reliable source:
:*Scarecrow Press is a reputable publisher.
:*The facts have not been challenged and seem accurate. drs (talk) 23:17, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Reputable by what standard? It's a publisher like any other, which may impress those who think a regularly published nonfiction book is ipso facto a reliable source. In my estimation the Historical Dictionary series is generally poor. The series editor certainly doesn't have a good enough sense of accuracy to ensure that Wikipedia is not being used as a source in the books (e.g. http://books.google.de/books?id=1jSg3lxgSy8C&pg=PA250&dq=wikipedia+intitle:%22+historical+dictionary%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AxKKT7TDDorzsgaxuL3BCw&ved=0CFgQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false), so it definitely can't be used to source information that has previously been in Wikipedia. Mewulwe (talk) 00:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *I don't understand how the link you have provided helps your argument. Could you explain further? Thanks. drs (talk) 00:40, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: They use Wikipedia as a source. Mewulwe (talk) 00:42, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Wikipedia thrives on publisher's work. It is the self-published work that is often challenged. And, yes, if a source is obviously based on Wikipedia then that too is challenged. I am not convinced that Scarecrow Press is duplicating a Wikipedia source. Can you clearly show that this book depends heavily on Wikipedia? Can you clearly show that this book cites Wikipedia as a source. The link you provide is in a different language. I need more convincing, I guess. drs (talk) 00:47, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's in the link. What more do you need? I don't have to show that a book "depends heavily" on Wikipedia. If it uses it at all, it may use it for anything. Mewulwe (talk) 09:47, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

text: *Actually, he needs to do more than that. He needs to provide evidence that this particular assertion comes from Wikipedia, and he can't.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:51, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You have the burden of proof exactly backwards again. You would have to show that they are not using Wikipedia in a given case, when it is a distinct possibility that they do. Mewulwe (talk) 09:47, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This view has been rejected.  No doubt you will offer it again.  But I don't see any sign that it is embraced by anyone else.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:55, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not a "view," it's basic logic. You can't just assume a source is reliable unless you can prove it's unreliability, which for many unreliable sources would naturally be impossible. You must instead positively prove a source is reliable. Since the source here uses Wikipedia, it must be assumed to be generally unreliable and you would have to prove that any particular claim is NOT based on Wikipedia. Mewulwe (talk) 10:53, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Wikipedia usually allows reputable publishers decide on what to reliably publish, I think. It is not up to a Wikipedia editor to make that decision. If Random House, for example, publishes a book about the topic, it is automatically citable. However, if Random House's book cites Wikipedia along with other normally accepted citations like the US Government. Then what? Is the book not worth citing? At some point, we should refer this question to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. Meanwhile, the issue is complex enough that we should not revert until it is resolved. Any thoughts, anyone? drs (talk) 12:26, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

text: No, I say that it may be taken from Wikipedia. Mewulwe (talk) 09:47, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The may be taken from Wikipedia is not good enough. I agree that any citation of Wikipedia in a source is odd. Perhaps it signifies Wikipedia's changing status among reputable publishers. And, in my opinion, it reduces the source's reliability in citing Wikipedia as a source. Though it cites the U.S. Government which usually is not challenged as a reliable source. The date, 1950, can be verified from various sources, so no problem. However, what if the source provides new information not found in Wikipedia, is that information reliable even though Wikipedia is on the list of otherwise reliable sources? drs (talk) 12:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It still wouldn't be the best source, but at least it wouldn't be circular. Mewulwe (talk) 12:33, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

text: The very page I linked to (250). At the very bottom. Mewulwe (talk) 09:47, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Thanks. I have found it. Wikipedia is cited as a source along with the CIA Factbook and the U.S. Government. That is interesting. Because of the changeable nature of Wikipedia and the ongoing edits possible, Wikipedia is often not considered a reliable source in academia. So, here we have an otherwise reputable publisher citing Wikipedia as a reliable source. I wonder if the editorial staff at Scarecrow Press or its parent company Rowman & Littlefield have discussed the reliability of Wikipedia. I have heard discussions of Wikipedia by high school English teachers. They admit that Wikipedia has become more reliable than it used to be, but continue to disallow any citation of Wikipedia as a source, mainly because of the fact that anyone can edit an article. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 12:39, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

text: ;Question 2 follow-up, 
*Does Wikipedia discuss this possibility, i.e. that of an otherwise reliable source citing Wikipedia as one of its sources? I wonder if the Reliable Sources Noticeboard has discussed the matter before. Anyone know? drs (talk) 12:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:CIRCULAR: ...do not use sources that present material originating from Wikipedia to support that same material in Wikipedia. Formerip (talk) 12:39, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Hi FormerIP, Thanks for the quote. Can a book have both reliably and unreliably sourced material? What if the source comes from a reputable publisher and it gives information not found anywhere in Wikipedia along with some information found in Wikipedia, is that information from a reliable source? Obviously, if Wikipedia makes no mention of a particular fact, then it logically follows that Wikipedia was not the source for that particular information. drs (talk) 12:47, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes that makes sense, but you would need to check literally all historical versions of the article to make sure that the information has never been there. Formerip (talk) 12:54, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *FormerIP, I see your point. Do we conclude from this, that if Wikipedia is ever cited as one of the sources in a book published by a reputable publisher, that the source is automatically considered unreliable over all? In our current discussion, the date 1950 already appears in Wikipedia. The source quotes Wikipedia along with many other sources and does not identify 1950 as sourced only from Wikipedia. Mewulwe,  I will remove that citation from the date. The overall use of this source is still up for discussion. drs (talk) 13:00, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical Dictionary of Malawi, is it a reliable source? 

message: *Following up on Bbb23, Mewulwe, do you say that the date given is taken from Wikipedia? If so, why? drs (talk) 01:42, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I say that it may be taken from Wikipedia. Mewulwe (talk) 09:47, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The may be taken from Wikipedia is not good enough. I agree that any citation of Wikipedia in a source is odd. Perhaps it signifies Wikipedia's changing status among reputable publishers. And, in my opinion, it reduces the source's reliability in citing Wikipedia as a source. Though it cites the U.S. Government which usually is not challenged as a reliable source. The date, 1950, can be verified from various sources, so no problem. However, what if the source provides new information not found in Wikipedia, is that information reliable even though Wikipedia is on the list of otherwise reliable sources? drs (talk) 12:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It still wouldn't be the best source, but at least it wouldn't be circular. Mewulwe (talk) 12:33, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Question 1

message: *Mewulwe, in the link you provided, can you direct us to a page which states that Wikipedia is a source for the book? drs (talk) 01:42, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The very page I linked to (250). At the very bottom. Mewulwe (talk) 09:47, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Thanks. I have found it. Wikipedia is cited as a source along with the CIA Factbook and the U.S. Government. That is interesting. Because of the changeable nature of Wikipedia and the ongoing edits possible, Wikipedia is often not considered a reliable source in academia. So, here we have an otherwise reputable publisher citing Wikipedia as a reliable source. I wonder if the editorial staff at Scarecrow Press or its parent company Rowman & Littlefield have discussed the reliability of Wikipedia. I have heard discussions of Wikipedia by high school English teachers. They admit that Wikipedia has become more reliable than it used to be, but continue to disallow any citation of Wikipedia as a source, mainly because of the fact that anyone can edit an article. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 12:39, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

text: ;Question 2 follow-up, 
*Does Wikipedia discuss this possibility, i.e. that of an otherwise reliable source citing Wikipedia as one of its sources? I wonder if the Reliable Sources Noticeboard has discussed the matter before. Anyone know? drs (talk) 12:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:CIRCULAR: ...do not use sources that present material originating from Wikipedia to support that same material in Wikipedia. Formerip (talk) 12:39, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Hi FormerIP, Thanks for the quote. Can a book have both reliably and unreliably sourced material? What if the source comes from a reputable publisher and it gives information not found anywhere in Wikipedia along with some information found in Wikipedia, is that information from a reliable source? Obviously, if Wikipedia makes no mention of a particular fact, then it logically follows that Wikipedia was not the source for that particular information. drs (talk) 12:47, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes that makes sense, but you would need to check literally all historical versions of the article to make sure that the information has never been there. Formerip (talk) 12:54, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *FormerIP, I see your point. Do we conclude from this, that if Wikipedia is ever cited as one of the sources in a book published by a reputable publisher, that the source is automatically considered unreliable over all? In our current discussion, the date 1950 already appears in Wikipedia. The source quotes Wikipedia along with many other sources and does not identify 1950 as sourced only from Wikipedia. Mewulwe,  I will remove that citation from the date. The overall use of this source is still up for discussion. drs (talk) 13:00, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Question 2

message: The article states that Joyce Banda has a Bachelor of Arts Degree in Early Childhood Education from Columbus University. Is Columbus University the same as Columbus University (Louisiana)? Columbus University (Louisiana) has a problematic reputation as its WP article reports. If this is the source of Banda's Bachelor's Degree, should the WP article about her cite the Bachelor's Degree without qualification? On a more personal note, I am impressed, thus far, with Joyce Banda's accomplishments and outlook on life and politics. This question is raised only because of Columbus' apparent reputation, not hers. drs (talk) 13:55, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Columbus University and Joyce Banda 

message: Joyce Banda has made some quick decisions which have major importance, it seems. Do we have any editors who understand Malawi politics enough to provide some guidance? drs (talk) 02:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I did have to cut the copy of the article; copyright applies no matter where you copy and paste something even article talk pages. The link above should be sufficient for anyone seeking to add info. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:52, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a problem. Your help is appreciated. drs (talk) 03:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joyce Banda as President and new developments 

message: She appointed new heads of Malawi Broadcasting Corporation (MBC) and Malawi Savings Bank. Apparently these are controversial appointments.http://www.malawitoday.com/news/124536-joyce-banda-faulted-appointments-msb-and-mbc
====April 25, The Daily Times article====
I am placing this article, almost in total, because it provides a source for quite a lot of information. I expect that over the next few days or weeks that the information can be gleaned from this and the text here deleted or reduced considerably. If this is contrary to WP policy, anyone stating such is welcome to remove this material. But, let's not lose this source. Thanks, drs (talk) 15:07, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I did have to cut the copy of the article; copyright applies no matter where you copy and paste something even article talk pages. The link above should be sufficient for anyone seeking to add info. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:52, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a problem. Your help is appreciated. drs (talk) 03:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Dismissals and appointments

message: I am placing this article, almost in total, because it provides a source for quite a lot of information. I expect that over the next few days or weeks that the information can be gleaned from this and the text here deleted or reduced considerably. If this is contrary to WP policy, anyone stating such is welcome to remove this material. But, let's not lose this source. Thanks, drs (talk) 15:07, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I did have to cut the copy of the article; copyright applies no matter where you copy and paste something even article talk pages. The link above should be sufficient for anyone seeking to add info. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:52, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a problem. Your help is appreciated. drs (talk) 03:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: April 25, The Daily Times article

message: Removing this article from my watchlist in May, was a bad idea. The consensus in April was to keep 4th in the infobox, as Banda is the country's fourth Presidnet. She's only had 3 predecessors, who've served consecutive terms. Therefore, we should keep 4th in the infobox. GoodDay (talk) 15:57, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: See the discussion above. I have replied to that and you just keep going back to the same statement. Mewulwe (talk) 16:11, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The discussion above was to keep the numbering. GoodDay (talk) 16:18, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The discussion above was about the numbering, and my points against the numbering stand unchallenged. Mewulwe (talk) 16:20, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: No, what happened was, you were the 'only' editor to oppose the numbering. Then, when you felt things had settled down (after about a month), you went back & reverted to your preferred version. Due to your action in May, I'll be leaving this article on my watchlist, as apparently I can no longer trust you to respect consensus. GoodDay (talk) 16:22, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

text: PS, It's likely this 'dispute' will be heading to DRN, eventually. GoodDay (talk) 16:39, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Consensus is not a vote. My arguments stand unopposed. Mewulwe (talk) 18:24, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Your arguments have been opposed. If you don't agree? take it to DRN. - GoodDay (talk) 22:59, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Mere contradiction is not an argument. Mewulwe (talk) 23:04, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Take it to DRN, if you disagree. GoodDay (talk) 23:06, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Do that yourself if you feel you don't have to justify your edits. But they'd probably tell you that you do. Mewulwe (talk) 23:09, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

text: In every subthread of the above discussion, I replied to any substantive point made. GoodDay - the only one who clearly still opposes me on the matter - has failed to maintain the discussion. Who else are you counting - drs? He left the discussion by saying that I "presented logic, but no compelling logic" without saying what's wrong with it. I have explained why precedent and policy does not apply. There is no policy specifically about the numbering, but precedent - if you exclude that created singlehandedly by GoodDay on countless articles - was that such numbers were only used where they are in (semi)official use and in this way lastingly unambiguous, which is not the case for Malawi. Mewulwe (talk) 23:57, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If you disagree with the consensus to keep the numbering? then take you argument to DRN. GoodDay (talk) 00:17, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no such consensus. Thus, if we have to go for a "default" position, it would be the one without the number, since the conflict started when you added it where it never was before. Mewulwe (talk) 00:38, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There is 'indeed' a consensus (reached in April) to keep. You're just ignoring it now (as you did in May), so again take it to DRN. GoodDay (talk) 00:45, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Mewulwe, you are not going to convince me that consensus is on your side. Take the matter to dispute resolution. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:12, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never claimed that consensus is on my side. I claim it is not on GoodDay's either. Mewulwe (talk) 12:28, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numbering (again) 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Is it relevant to state that Colombus University is an unaccredited distance education institution?
The same question for the mention that Atlantic international University is a distance learning institution. Why is it relevant? Gatito999  (talk) 13:27, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education