Talk:Sam Cooke

message: Does anybody know his full name or even if that is his birth name? JoanB
His last name was Cook, like his father's, without the later added "e".  I'm don't know of any middle name. Hammer 19:27, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The Pop Chronicles says that his name was Sam Dale Cooke in an interview with Bumps Blackwell. DougHill (talk) 00:06, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Full name

message: German translation is complete, so leave a note at de:Diskussion:Sam Cooke if you change the English article. -- TomK32 14:31, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: German translation

message: There seem to be confusion about Cooke's date of birth. Various sources on the internet claim it's either 1930, 1931 or 1935. This website has a photo of Cooke's gravestone with the year 1930 on it. Thuresson 12:27, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This still crops up occasionally.  Headstones are not reliable sources, but the book Blues: A Regional Experience by Eagle and LeBlanc is, and (on p.199) gives 1931 - here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:39, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Date of birth

message: The article devotes many more words about Cooke's death than it does about his life and accomplishments.  That seems very odd and imbalanced -- his life was certainly more notable than the circumstances of his death.  Shouldn't the bio section be expanded, and/or the "death" controvery be reduced down to a paragraph or two?  Vandelay 13:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Came here to echo what the others have said; there's too much about his death taking up the biography.  It should probably be split out.  Viriditas (talk) 09:29, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why so much about the death?  

message: Sam was a great talent...truly sad that his life was cut so short.  I agree that the women involved in his killing definitely sound extremely shady.  To me, it's obvious that he was at least robbed by the dumb hooker.  Not sure it involved an actual murder conspiracy or not...probably will never know.Tom70.119.219.0 16:09, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The death is notable and deserves the sort of attention it is getting, but more about Cooke's life would be great.--Timtak (talk) 16:24, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need more about his life...but NOT less about his tragic death 

message: I think You Send Me is going to be in the public domain in the UK in october. Shame we can't add it to wikipedia, as US copyright law is 95 years + 70, instead of 50. Supposed 03:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright 

message: It says that Sam had managed to publish a record post-mortem, entitled "Shake."  Had he already recorded this and it had not been finished ny the time he died in '64? ~white.matthew.09 (forgot to sign in) 209.137.182.35 10:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tupac Discontinuity?

message: See Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <ref(erences/)> tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 04:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations & References

message: Just wondered whether anybody agreed with me in that the lead might contain peacock terms, in that statements such as 'his impact on soul music is undeniable' shouldn't be used, especially in the lead. I'm not saying he wasn't great, just that in keeping with the theme of an encyclopedia, you should show that he's a legend by saying what he's achieved, without saying directly that he was great. Rudy 16:46, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Peacock Terms

message: I'm not sure if the POV issue that has been raised here before is still an issue, but when I first saw the article, quite a bit of it seemed biased IMHO. As groovy as Sam is, I don't think it needs to be mentioned in every other sentence. I also understand that his death is pretty controversial, but it needs to be presented in a neutral and encyclopedic manner. That being said, I made some bold edits and reworded/reworked some of the article. I also replaced the references used, more specifically, the ourunclesam.com refs. I have no idea who added them, but they didn't indicate where the information was located in the book (ie page numbers) if that's what the references were suppose to represent. There's still quite a bit that needs to be done on the article, mainly additional references and more on Cooke's life, so if anyone has a problem-o about my edits, let me know. Pinkadelica 07:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chop, chop 

message: I'm a little puzzled as to why the period Sam Cooke spent singing Gospel, prior to his pop success, isn't mentioned at all?--ReTracer (talk) 08:01, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There's mention of it in the "Early life" section. If you think that area needs expanded, feel free to do so. Pinkadelica Say it... 08:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soul Stirrers 

message: I have just begun looking for "free images" for musicians' pages that have had to rely entirely on "fair use" photos in the past month or two. I've been uploading photographs for musicians' biography articles for the past few years --my area of interest on the en.Wikipedia, es.Wikipedia, pt.Wikipedia, etc. (as well as editing articles, of course), however, until two months ago it had not occured to me to look for free photos in addition to my normal reasons (updating photos, replacing bad ones, adding additional ones for musicians with long careers, as with Mick Taylor, and providing photos for articles who had no photo at all). Having some success with a handful of artists, (John Paul Jones, John Bonham, etc.) I hope to find one of Cooke, since he died in the 1960s, though I admit it is a long shot. While "nesting" several groups interested in an artist is good, can someone remind me how to place a "request photograph" template below the nested group, so it is visable immediately without need for clicking the various groups? It is not just for this article but for other pages missing photos altogether. I have forgotten it, outside of the biography listas parameter. Oh, and if anyone would like me to search for free images for any musicians (and some other photographs, as well), please leave a note for both things on my talk page. I could not possibly keep all these talk pages on my watch list! Thank you.--Leahtwosaints (talk) 14:49, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Free Images 

message: given wiki's aspirations of neutrality, why is he listed as a murdered entertainer? who murdered him? his killer was ruled to have committed a justified homicide. very very sloppy and slanderous.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.253.24.229 (talk) 06:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect you're not terribly interested in improving the article and just want to complain, but I'll explain this to you anyway. One, only living people can be slandered and slander is spoken, not written. I'm assuming you meant that categorizing Cooke's murder is libelous, but even that doesn't apply so there's nothing "sloppy" or "slanderous" going on here. Two, justifiable homicide is still murder as the act of homicide in and of itself is considered murder (ie the act of a human killing a human being). The only difference being is that there was justification for the murder. Now, if you'd like to really talk about sloppy and libelous, this talk page comment from the very same IP would apply. Ah, irony. Pinkadelica♣ 08:46, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

text: wikipedia does not report on what "some" people believe. It reports on what can be verified by reliable source. Until you can provide a reliable source that definitively contradicts the official (note that word....official) verdict, all this back and forth is useless. 24.72.176.240 (talk)
This is an old section. See below for changes about "murder" that I've made to this article. Tapered (talk) 03:45, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  basis for his listing as a murdered entertainer? 

message: He is simply American.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.59.126.203 (talk) 08:44, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: oh please  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.72.176.240 (talk) 07:48, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: African-American

message: Barbara Cooke is given short thrift in this article ... it seems she was very young when she married Sam Cooke ... maybe about 19 or so ... also read Midnight Mover by Bobby Womack, Robert Ashton 
---  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.8.24.67 (talk) 07:34, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes.  Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). --Elonka 14:18, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Barbara Cooke

message: hello,
according to the Jet magazine, Sam Cooke died exactly the same date Otis Redding did, namely on December 10, see , page 60. So, where is the source stating he died a day later? This should be resolved. Regards.--♫GoP♫TCN 12:13, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There wasn't a source for the date of death because, as long as I have been watching this article (about two years now), no one has challenged Cooke's date of death. The only time we need to provide a cite for a DOB or DOD is if there are major discrepancies of sources. As far as I'm aware, this isn't the case with Cooke. Most sources clearly state that Cooke died in the early morning hours of December 11, not December 10. I think the source you're using to support the December 10 dating is incorrect as another Jet magazine article states the shooting (and subsequent death of Cooke) happened in the early morning hours of December 11. 
* Freed of Killing, Woman Had Only Seen Sam On TV, page 60
Additional sources also support December 11 as being Cooke's DOD:
* Ebony, page 93
* Black American Biographies: The Journey of Achievement, page 268
* Encyclopedia of American Gospel Music, page 89
* Cooke's Death Certificate
All those sources, coupled with Cooke's death certificate lead me to believe the original date of death that was listed in the article, December 11, 1964, was indeed correct. I think the content should be changed back. Pinkadelica♣ 22:56, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

text: OK then. Some sources say he was killed 1:30, some 3:00, so it is not clear. Maybe he died just minutes before December 11. --♫GoP♫TCN 10:16, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if he died at 1am, that would still be December 11. His death certificate along with various articles state he died at around 3am on December 11. I would venture a guess that 3am is likely correct. Regardless, thank you for restoring the original date of death. Pinkadelica♣ 18:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death date? 

message: One of the few "facts" that would suggest that Sam Cooke's death was not as simple as it appears is Etta James' claim that Cooke had been badly beaten, in particular that he had been almost decapitated, and that his nose had been smashed.  I am not sure how much damage Mrs Franklin's broom could cause.  But doesn't the autopsy report lay resolve this matter?  The police scene photos do not show a body with a smashed nose, and there appears no neck wound.  Was Etta in town then, and if she had been would a young woman like her have been allowed into a morgue?203.184.41.226 (talk) 08:34, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That is interesting... I guess that would bring to fact that some of Etta James' stories are exaggerated. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 16:26, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Injuries 

message: Article current has the text 
Posthumously releases of Cooke recordings followed, many of which became hits, including "A Change Is Gonna Come", an early protest song that is generally regarded as his greatest composition.
This should probably be rewritten. A Change is Gonna Come was on Ain%27t_That_Good_News_(album), so was not released posthumusly, although the single did come out after his death. I tried my hand, but nothing I wrote sounded right. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:38, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  posthumusly 

message: I've eliminated Same Cooke fr/ four Wikipedia Category lists in which he doesn't belong: 1964 crimes in the United States, Murdered entertainers, American murder victims, and People murdered in California. 
His death, as per the well-referenced article, was legally declared a justifiable homicide, which is not a crime--ergo no "crime" category. Since it was ruled a justifiable homicide, it can't be a Murder, by Wikipedia's definition, or any other. So Same Cooke doesn't fit into any "murder" category.
This will make some readers and editors very unhappy, but the logic is sound and consistent with Wikipedia's Neutral point of view. I'm going to watch the article. Regards  Tapered (talk) 04:03, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This article has been edited to present Cooke's death as his family, friends, and partisans wish to see it. The phrase "at the time" in the lead implied that the court's ruling of justifiable homicide might have been in error or might have been changed later--so I eliminated the phrase. Justifiable homicide is still the verdict 50 years later. Another referenced sentence (#18) implied that the source documented continuing controversy since 1964, when the article covered only the immediate aftermath of the death--so I reworded the sentence. The final sentence of the lead used the word "wide," ambiguously to imply some groundswell of continuing controversy around the circumstances of Cooke's death--when what's documented is controversy from people connected to him personally. I've belabored this point, but Cooke was a great singer with more than a few positive attributes. The circumstances of his death don't change that, so there's no need massage the facts. Tapered (talk) 04:57, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the category Death conspiracy theories, which I think is accurate: there are theories that Cooke was murdered, although the official verdict was justifiable homicide. Strawberry4Ever (talk) 07:09, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

text: I think you have a point there, and I have airtight theory for Allen Klein's murder conspiracy. He found Elisa Boyer, introduced her to Bertha Franklin—whom Klein would certainly have had reason to know—and arranged for them to cooperate to lure Cooke into the motel office where Franklin could murder him. I'm waiting for my Pulitzer and Nobel Prizes. Tapered (talk) 01:16, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: "Murder" 

message: One of his infant children drowned in a swimming pool while he was still alive. Lends perspective to some of his later behavior.
"In 1963, Cooke's infant son Vincent--one of his three children--drowned in the family pool." http://articles.latimes.com/1994-12-23/news/mn-12372_1_sam-cooke/3 I would like this to be added to his "Personal Life."
:I added a statement that Sam's son Vincent drowned in the family's swimming pool. Strawberry4Ever (talk) 07:18, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infant child drowned -- add to Personal Life 

message: I reverted your latest two edits, which changed this sentence in the lead paragraph:
Since that time, the circumstances of his death have been called into question by Cooke's family and his wide circle of friends and acquaintances.
to the following:
As is the usual case concerning the deaths of famous people before middle age, the circumstances of his death have been called into question by Cooke's family and his wide circle of friends and acquaintances.
As I see it, these edits put your personal opinion into the article, which is contrary to Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy.
On the merits, I don't think there was the same level of debate about the possibility of other celebrities who died young, such as Jimi Hendrix and John Belushi, having been murdered as there was about whether Sam Cooke was murdered. Strawberry4Ever (talk) 00:51, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion in lead section of circumstances of Cooke's death being questioned 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Sam Cooke. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add  after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/7661211/the_man_who_invented_soul
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 11:07, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Citations 43 and 44 are dead links, making the statement about Boyer's story long being questioned unsourced. The original source sounds untrustworthy to me, since websites of that kind are generally synopses of famous and/or unusual deaths, and give little real information.  KimbaBrown (talk) 22:31, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I've restored the citations using archive URLs. Whether CrimeLibrary.com is a reliable source is a separate question. Strawberry4Ever (talk) 17:12, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boyer's Veracity and Etta James Citation 

message: Etta James had a long and distinguished career in music, but as far as I know, she never obtained a medical degree. Why is her statement about the body's physical condition in an encyclopedia entry? It says she viewed the body before the funeral. I'm assuming this was a family and close friends viewing which is fairly typical, and not that she got to see anything that several dozen, perhaps hundreds, of other people didn't. If there were any unusual injuries, they could have been perpetrated by the medical personnel who removed the body, the coroner and/or the mortician and associated personnel. I think the James citation should be entirely removed. Can anyone tell me why it shouldn't be? Unless it's there just to illustrate the mindset of his family and friends, and the belief they have of a coverup? In which case it should be noted as such. There probably should be a separate conspiracy section KimbaBrown (talk) 22:44, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The paragraph containing Etta James's comments starts with the sentence "Some of Cooke's family and supporters, however, have rejected Boyer's version of events, as well as those given by Franklin and Carr." The James citation supports this. Strawberry4Ever (talk) 17:27, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etta James Citation 

message: Does anyone else think the quotes from AllMusic in the lead section are peacock language? Could they be replaced, please? Tapered (talk) 04:37, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: To some extent that argument could be applied to all of the second and third paragraphs.  While I don't for a moment question his talents, or his importance in developing R&B and soul music, it seems unnecessary to me to include a lengthy list of performers for whom he paved the way.  Allmusic is generally regarded as reasonably authoritative, but the opening paragraphs could certainly be reworded to place more emphasis on Cooke's specific achievements.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:27, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Allmusic is authoritative for factual info, not necessarily for interpretation. And the essential facts of Cooke's fame and achievements could be rewritten without the PR effusiveness, yes? Tapered (talk) 00:00, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peacock language? 

message: The article used to say:
"...Boyer was arrested for prostitution in January 1965, though the charge was dismissed and she accrued no more notoriety."  I just edited out the words "and she accrued no more notoriety" in light of articles which say that she had multiple subsequent prostitution arrests, and a second degree murder conviction in 1979.  I'm not including them in the article at this stage, because they aren't from well known sites with an established record of fact checking, and they give no sourcing for the assertion.  This for example: http://weeklyview.net/2014/12/18/the-death-of-sam-cooke-part-2/  I'm checking books on the subject for anything more definitive, but for now, thought that those six words (which aren't really reflected in the cited reference anyway) should probably go.  136.0.16.230 (talk) 22:27, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: If reliable sources don't corroborate notoriety, then there isn't any notoriety. I interpolated that clause into the article because the article had previously contained all sorts of claims and statements about Boyer's life after Cooke's death. And that's why I'm putting it back. Tapered (talk) 10:04, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Better yet, the Crime Library reference states that Boyer "slipped into anonymity." Enough said. Tapered (talk) 10:08, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Much better yet.  That reflects what a reference says.  Deserved or not, the reality seems to have been that she slipped into badly-sourced notoriety.  What we have now is an assertion which no reference has made. Poindexter Propellerhead (talk) 16:03, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changed a few words 

message: Regarding the phrase "civil rights:" I am not familiar with the Wikipedia guidelines you mention. I am however 69 years of age, and considered somewhat well read and up to date on news events. I have seen "civil rights" thousands of times in the course of my reading, and it's never been hyphenated that I can recall. I suggest reading the following articles: Murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner, Martin Luther King Jr., and (best of all) Civil rights movement. You could ?remedy? these articles by 'hyphenating' them, and then finding all the other (likely hundreds) of repititions of this 'error' found throughout Wikipedia. Or you could revert the hyphen from this article about a great singer—in accordance with comman usage. Or you could find some third option similar to and just as stupid as the first option. Tapered (talk) 07:39, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: PS I curate this article as part of my Watchlist. Otherwise I wouldn't have noticed the edit. As I said, I think common usage ought to prevail in matters like this. Tapered (talk) 07:43, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  The phrase "civil rights", in general, isn't the issue here (nor is your age and how well-read you're "considered"). The issue here is how to deal with compound modifiers and stacked modifiers. If you google these two phenomena, and read the Wikipage on compound modifiers, you will see that consensus among authorities is that phrases like "civil-rights movement" should be hyphenated like this. You ought to be happy I corrected this, instead of calling it "stupid" and putting scare quotes around the word error, when that's clearly what it is. Aikclaes (talk) 07:57, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're being pedantic, and it ain't gonna hurt the article none. I surrender. Tapered (talk) 08:07, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: PS And in ur onor, Iem gona uze az fu hyfens az pozsibal. Tapered (talk) 08:12, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I realize you're trying to come across as funny, but to me you just appear weird. Aikclaes (talk) 08:34, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hyphens 

message: Sam Cooke was a hugely influential and popular figure in music.  Yet this article has more text, now, about his death than about his career.  Would it be better, given the amount of detail that some editors want to include, to have a new article, Death of Sam Cooke, as we have Death of Marvin Gaye?   Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:19, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Is there nothing out there more about his early life, schooling, etc. Did he not know much about arithmetic...? JohndanR (talk) 05:16, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: If he didn't, Herb Alpert or Lou Adler did!! Tapered (talk) 07:06, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree also.  I will attempt to fix some aspect of this. Viriditas (talk) 09:37, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Balance 

message: The "Weekly Review" used to substantiate info about Franklin & Boyer doesnt meet the requirements for WP:RS. The claim about Boyer being jailed has been around for a long time, but this editor has never seen corroboration from a reliable source. Tapered (talk) 04:06, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That content has been deleted, and I agree. When I search for info on Boyer being convicted, I only find very poor quality sources. AND it looks like they all got their info from the inaccurate content on Wikipedia! Not one single news agency ever mentions that Boyer was ever convicted of any crime during her life. Peter K Burian (talk) 11:44, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: For the sake of debate: People Magazine mentions Boyer having been arrested for prostitution and convicted of second-degree murder in this 2021 article: https://people.com/movies/why-mystery-still-shrouds-singer-sam-cookes-shooting-death-nearly-60-years-later/ A.T.S. in Texas (talk) 14:57, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aftermath: Bertha Franklin, Elisa Boyer 

message: Yea I love your songs I wish you be alive again but a simple things has gone bad 0-0 2601:3C7:4281:8420:95C2:A532:E73B:47F0 (talk) 02:30, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wished to be alive again :( 

message: "She said she ran first to the manager's office and knocked on the door seeking help."  As currently written, "she" refers to Bertha Franklin, who is the subject of the previous paragraph.  But the actions described don't make sense unless Boyer is the one who did them.  Would someone who knows the answer please clarify this passage?  Thanks. Hebeckwith (talk) 02:04, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I came here to  make the same comment. The paragraph only makes sense if Boyer is the subject of the paragraph, but it reads, at first, as if Franklin is the subject. A.T.S. in Texas (talk) 14:24, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death: ambiguous wording and meaning 

message: This article - particularly around the events leading up to Sam Cookes death is hugely biased and makes a mockery of what is now seen as a potential murder of a civil rights activist. Its not only inaccurate but humiliating to the memory of Cooke and his descendants. Please remove this trash! 2A00:23C8:6F09:DC01:ADC5:B09:B681:4826 (talk) 19:54, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias