Talk:Western Xia

message: the article is still a draft Ktsquare June 20 2002
=== Why an empire ===
1)The survival of the Western Xia dynasty of Tangut among Mongol, Jin, Liao, Song for such a long time from 11 century to 13 century is just a miracle. How come the empire? 2) it is said to be populated by Tangut? has to be clarified. Simple cases are Yuan Empire and Jin dynasty, we can not say that they are populated by Mongol and Jurchen. 3) people in Western Xia call themself Da Xia or "Great Xia", so it may not be good idea artificially put the name "Tangut Empire" on it. Whatever the name, it should contain "Xia". So I would recommend "The Western Xia Dynasty of Tangut", or "The Great Xia Dynasty of Tangut", or "The Xia Dynasty of Tangut", or "The Great Xia Dynasty". Mon Aug 29 14:34:16 EDT 2005
: Crediting political history to "miracles" seems unwise. The Tangut Empire, survived the same way the Mongols, the Kitans and the Jurchens, and for that matter all other political entities -- war, trade, diplomacy, taxes. 
: If we call the Jurchens, the Mongols, the Tibetans, empires than we have to call the Tanguts an empire too. It was a multi-national polity as you point out in #2, this is usually the criterion by which things are called empires. Although Japan fails this criterion as do many of the early chinese dynasties. The fact that the Song paid the Tanguts tribute should suffice for establishing them as an empire. 
: The Tanguts did not call themselves "Da Xia" that is quite obviously a Chinese title. The autonym for their ethnicity is Miniah, and the name of their polity is discussed in the article. 
: Why the name contain "Xia"? 
: The Tanguts were not a Chinese dynasty any more than the Tibetans, the Japanese, or the USA.
=== Effective military organisation ===
Do we really seriously consider the possibility that the Xia/Tangut/other name of your preference used chariots in the 11th-13th centuries CE? Carts and wagons to build laagers and perhaps carry artillery, OK, but the term chariot must either come from a mistranslation or a historicising source. 94.210.191.78 (talk) 14:42, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Do we really seriously consider the possibility that the Xia/Tangut/other name of your preference used chariots in the 11th-13th centuries CE? Carts and wagons to build laagers and perhaps carry artillery, OK, but the term chariot must either come from a mistranslation or a historicising source. 94.210.191.78 (talk) 14:42, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Effective military organisation 

message: To sum up succinctly to say 'Western Xia' expresses a biased POV. First of all it is in the west (of China), second it is called the Xia (i.e. a Chinese Name and indeed transliterated according to the 20th century pronunciation of Beijing). The Mongols would have seen them as to the south, the Tibetans as to the north. To say 'Tangut Empire' expresses less of a POV. --Nathan hill 12:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: All expansion I did today came from translating the Chinese Wikipedia. Olorin28 04:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expansion 

message: If this dispute is only about which name the article should be under, you should primarily use the Wikipedia:Requested moves and not Wikipedia:Request for comment. / Fred-Chess 20:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comment? Better solution 

message: Shouldn't the Western Xia's city of Lingzhou be discussed?  It is discussed in the Genghis Khan article.  Badagnani 03:44, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Lingzhou]] 

message: Does anybody have any information about religious texts, traditions or people within Western Xia? I am endeavouring to chart the influence of Korean Buddhism upon the Dzogchen of the Nyingmapa. I intuit that Western Xia and Rongzompa are somehow related. Any direction would be appreciated.
Blessings in the Mindstream
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 09:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion and spiritual traditions 

message: Is there a source to verify the "suppression"? As it is, the passage provides no evidence of Xixia being suppressed in China aside from saying they've "vanished" and is treated as a foreign state. Saying that this is "suppression of history" seems very POV/biased, unless it can be properly documented. Astro Droid (talk) 20:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suppression of Western Xia history in China 

message: A section under 'interpretation of names' seems to badly confuse the Tangut and the Tuyuhun and confuse both of these with the Mongours. The Tanguts are Tibeto-Burman speakers, the Tuyuhun are turks, and the Mongours are Mongols. Making the Tanguts into Mongols seems like a bitter pill to swollow indeed. I am going to remove the section. I realize it is cited, and perhaps much of it should stay. But right now it is terribly confused. Tibetologist (talk) 18:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: What is all this about the Tuyuhun

message: Tangut people were brave warriors following the karma kargu clan or ningmapa buddhism they followed karmapas.the then dalailama of tibet with the help of mongol army invaded the tangut empire defeating them and persecuting them all. in course of time the tribal chiefs and princes escaped or migrated to various places from their homelands due to persecutions by the yellow hat sects of dalailamas, some group of tribal chiefs made to bhutan and sikkim(now in india). In bhutan they are known as ngalops or the earliest converts (see ngalops of bhutan) and in sikkim they are known as denzongpas.The history of sikkim tells us that a tribal chief by the name of khyebhumsar in came from minyak in the eastern part of kham and settled in sikkim whose decendent became the kings of sikkim.
Just wanna tell that the history of tangut people is not lost but still breathing and thriving .
should redirect here.--189.62.170.155 (talk) 15:27, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Western Hsia]] 

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thread_title: File:China 1141 A.D..jpg Deleted

message: http://books.google.com/books?id=8CMyW3QASFIC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=o3AhAAAAMAAJ&q=inauthor:%22Ruth+W.+Dunnell%22&dq=inauthor:%22Ruth+W.+Dunnell%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WKkQUdCvKbOQ0QGKrYGIBg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ
http://books.google.com/books?id=o3AhAAAAMAAJ&q=Dunnell+tanguts&dq=Dunnell+tanguts&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NakQUeevIuSE0QGpyoDYAQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAQ
http://books.google.com/books?id=Y6ffYIPn--wC&pg=PA121&dq=Dunnell+tanguts&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NakQUeevIuSE0QGpyoDYAQ&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Dunnell%20tanguts&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=sy4FHmSlq_oC&pg=PA27&dq=Dunnell+tanguts&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NakQUeevIuSE0QGpyoDYAQ&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Dunnell%20tanguts&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=9GGR3V4zJzwC&pg=PA224&dq=Dunnell+tanguts&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NakQUeevIuSE0QGpyoDYAQ&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Dunnell%20tanguts&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=VIWC9wCX2c8C&pg=PA235&dq=Dunnell+tanguts&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NakQUeevIuSE0QGpyoDYAQ&ved=0CF0Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Dunnell%20tanguts&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=ePBeFRJnE_gC&pg=PA235&dq=Dunnell+tanguts&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NakQUeevIuSE0QGpyoDYAQ&ved=0CGMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Dunnell%20tanguts&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=F0XNX3N1a2AC&pg=PA466&dq=Dunnell+tanguts&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NakQUeevIuSE0QGpyoDYAQ&ved=0CGkQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Dunnell%20tanguts&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=B934LaVBaz8C&pg=PA57&dq=Dunnell+tanguts&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NakQUeevIuSE0QGpyoDYAQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Dunnell%20tanguts&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=iN9Tdfdap5MC&pg=PA197&dq=Dunnell+tanguts&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NakQUeevIuSE0QGpyoDYAQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Dunnell%20tanguts&f=false
https://www.eastwestcenter.org/sites/all/modules/filemanager/files/ASDP/NEHMongol2014/GK_LAYOUT_152-199_FINAL.pdf
Other authors
http://books.google.com/books?id=SQWW7QgUH4gC&pg=PA262#v=onepage&q&f=false
Rajmaan (talk) 06:47, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ruth W. Dunnell's works on the Xixia 

message: http://books.google.com/books?id=SQWW7QgUH4gC&pg=PA256#v=onepage&q&f=false
Are we sure that this book is correct about the "Yarlung" river, which the Wikipedia author has probably expanded to "Yarlung Tsangpo"? I think it's more likely to be the Yalong tributary of the Yangzi, the upper valley of which is known in Tibetan as "Minyak", which contains Karma Kargyupa monasteries, and above all Qiangic (non-Tibetan) Sino-Tibetan languages probably closely related to Tangut if not descended from it, including a poorly described one called Muya (of which "Minyak" is a synonym). UnknownSage (talk) 03:41, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: That would fit in more with the surrounding geography described in the book. I'm not familiar at all with the geography of that area of the world, so thank you for catching that.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 04:16, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Tangut remnants

message: Can we start using Mark Miyake's "simplified notation suitable for lay publications" to transcribe the Tangut language? He presents it here: http://amritas.com/150110.htm#01052345 ... when I first saw this page a while ago, knowing nothing of Tangut, I found transcriptions like /*phiow¹-bjij²-lhjij-lhjij²/ so odd to look at that I had a hard time believing it was not a typo. Now, having learned a slight bit about the language, that does not seem to have been necessary. There's a lot we don't know about the specifics of how Tangut was pronounced, especially as far as how the different rime grades were pronounced, that it seems pointless to try to be so specific. Miyake represents the grades with numbers. He suggests that lay publications use a simplified form with no numbers for grades, no tone marks, and no letters for phonation other than n for nasalisation. In the example I mentioned above, /io/ is Gong's grade II (I believe) of "o" and /jij/ is grade III of "e". So, Miyake's reconstruction would be, I believe, phow-be-lhe-lhe. Much easier on the eyes.
On second thought, I don't see how we can switch without finding a specific source for Miyake's transcription of each character in question, or, at least, an authoritative key for translating between the two transcriptions. – Greg Pandatshang (talk) 05:23, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: As the person who probably added most of the odd looking Tangut transcriptions (Gong Hwang-cherng's reconstructions as given in Li Fanwen's 2008 Tangut-Chinese dictionary), I support your suggestion in principle. I don't like the overly complex and often impossible to pronounce reconstructions given in either Li Fanwen's 2008 dictionary or Kychanov's 2006 dictionary, and have long admired Marc Miyake's attempts to create a simpler and more rational system of transcription.  But as you say, the main problem is that there is currently no source available for Wikipedia editors to go to in order to get the transcription for any given Tangut character. BabelStone (talk) 10:36, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Marc Miyake has now published a database of his transcriptions for 6,074 Tangut characters (linked to from this blog post), which would be ideal for our purposes. BabelStone (talk) 18:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Fantastic! However, I don't know how to find tangraphs in the index that Miyake provides, so I don’t how to actually translate tangraphs & existing transcriptions into his romanisations. Do you know how to find them? – Greg Pandatshang (talk) 17:53, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Tangut language transcription

message: Any thoughts on reopening discussions about moving this page to Tangut Empire? In principle, other possible titles include Xixia, Xixia Empire, Western Xia dynasty,  Western Hsia, and many other permutations.
Personally, the title of this article sticks out to me in a bad way because the Tangutologists that I’m familiar with use the term “Tangut” rather than some variation on Hsia, and also because it seems to natural to me that, for example, if someone were describing the destruction of this state by the Mongols, I would expect it to be referred to as “the Tanguts”. However, I can understand the contrary argument that the conventional name of the imperial people is “Tanguts” but the conventional name of the state is the Chinese “etc. Xia”.
Additionally, “Western” seems odd in this title because in English it seems to imply that there is also an “Eastern Xia”, etc., whereas in Chinese it implies something more like “Xia, which is in the west” (much as the Chinese word for Tibet is “Xizang”, i.e. “Tsang, which is in the west”). If we decide to keep this article at some variant of the Chinese name, perhaps we could consider moving it to Xixia. – Greg Pandatshang (talk) 18:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that according to Google Books Ngram Viewer "Western Xia" is much more common than "Tangut Empire" (see ). Furthermore, there was indeed an "Eastern Xia" as established by Puxian Wannu, although it was a relatively short-lived kingdom. --Cartakes (talk) 21:53, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move redux 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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