Talk:Wat Phra Dhammakaya

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I have just modified 27 external links on Wat Phra Dhammakaya. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:21, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: , you've helped me with archives before. I can't find the archives of this talk page. Any ideas as to whether why they don't appear on my screen?--Farang Rak Tham  (Talk) 21:35, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually bookmarked one. this one here. [] not sure why the ones b4 10 dont appear tho. i noticed other pages dont have this issue. Wikiman5676 (talk) 01:04, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Archives start with no. 1, not 10. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:25, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, !--Farang Rak Tham  (Talk) 11:46, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archives gone 

message: The source does not mention this image to be related to WPD. Do you have support for this claim and this image's inclusion in this article? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:08, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The image is about meditation, and so is the article.--Farang Rak Tham  (Talk) 13:32, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  In other words, you do not have any support but feel that any representative non-WPD or WPD meditation image can be used in the meditation-system-related section in this article about a Buddhist Temple / organization. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:51, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  The picture is from a Flickr account that appears to be owned by a devotee from the temple. Nearly all the pictures in this account are from the temple, and the posture, especially the hands, matches that of other PR from the temple.--Farang Rak Tham  (Talk) 14:18, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: FRT: We can't editorilize nor use wikipedia's voice in an article. Sweeping statements such as "Wat Phra Dhammakaya teaches traditional Buddhist values" must be attributed to the temple or the author. This is particularly important when there are disputing sides, as is the case for WPD. You cited Heikkilä-Horn (1996) previously and added Zehner (1990) with this edit. Would you please read the context again and clarify, include/embed a quote in the cite. You link wikipedia's "Buddhist values" article. However, Heikkilä-Horn and Zehner are not agreeing with our wikipedia article, and the term "Buddhist values" is broad and contested. WPD, as you know, has been much criticized by Thai sangha and some academics. Its Buddhist beliefs and practices have been alleged to be "heretical" (quoting to welcome any talk page watchers who may wish to comment):
:Quote (from the Dhammakaya movement article, please see its edit history for links/credits): 
:[a] Scott 2009, pp. 3, 82, 129–130, 140: "... critique of the Dhammakaya Temple's wealth and alleged heretical teachings and practices ..." (p. 3); "... high ranking monastic officials who alleged that Phra Dhammachayo had violated the monastic code of conduct by teaching heretical views on nirvana". (pp. 129–130); ff.; Scott (2008, pp. 231, 248); Taylor (2016, pp. 55–57) ; 
:[b] Mackenzie 2007, pp. 16–7, 50–2, 175–9: "Thailand's highly regarded scholar monk, Phra Dhammapitaka [Prayudh Payutto] sought to identify Wat Phra Dhammakaya's position as heretical by commenting, 'In all Buddhist scriptures, both the Tipitaka and the commentaries, there is no evidence that nibbana is atta. But there is much evidence that nibbana is anatta ...'" (p. 51); "... his understanding of the Pali scriptures clearly demonstrates to the Thai that the movement is heretical in its beliefs" (p. 16)" 
:[c] Seeger 2010, p. 71, n.39–40, at the height of the controversy the spiritual leader of this movement, with regard to Phra Thammachayo, it was claimed that he was "spreading teachings that have been regarded as unorthodox from a Theravada doctrinal point of view. Severe criticism has particularly been directed against the movemen's wide use of miracles (Pali: patihariya) and their teaching that nirvana (Pali: nibbana), the soteriological goal of Buddhism, has the characteristic of a Higher Self, which is in conflict with traditional Theravada's view that “all and everything is no-self" (Pali: sabbe dhamma anatta), including nibbana." ... (These teachings have been) "criticized heavily by a number of acknowledged Thai scholars, academics, monks and social critics who are concerned about the integrity and longevity of original Buddhism".
All this means this article needs more care in attributing and including the disputing sides for NPOV. We can include what the sources list as Buddhist values in WPD's context with attribution. Please briefly quote the source, the context and explain. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:49, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Values refers to Buddhist ethics, Sarah, not doctrine about self or not-self. Sources refer to traditional family values, which is sufficient. Secondly, merely describing an aim of an organization is in itself not violating neutrality.--Farang Rak Tham  (Talk) 14:32, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: FRT: Which sources? which page number? Zehner (1990) makes no such claim, nor uses that broad phrase. He writes about WPD forbidding "newspaper", "smoking", "animals", "furtune telling", "talk of politics", "...." etc values in WPD's context on page 417, and those are hardly "Buddhist values/ethics". You have now added Scott, p. 55 as a source. But, again she does not use that broad, vague phrase. She writes, "Temple publications are replete with stories of how dhammakāya practice can help students to prepare for college entrance exams, transform wayward teens, cultivate confidence in professionals, and bring families together". Again, these are not synonymous with "Buddhist values/ethics" (nor is Scott implying so). We can't generalize. Yes, Scott does state "to improve the lives of [its] followers, to strengthen the religion, and to bring prosperity to the nation" etc, something I have already summarized into this article. We should avoid OR and editorializing here. The lead should typically summarize the most important aspects of the main article as found in multiple mainstream, peer-reviewed scholarship. This "revive traditional Buddhist values" is strange OR, unsupported, and implies that the traditional Buddhists do not or did not have this intent / aim / effort! That is hardly true. Non-Dhammakaya Buddhists in Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana traditions have their own perspective and seek traditional "Buddhist values/ethics" in their own ways. We need to be careful in what we say and how we say it. We should also avoid using wikipedia voice here. If you restore this again, I ask you to embed the quote with page number that supports such a sweeping claim. No "passim" cites please, as has been done in the past in this and related articles, because that is a ridiculous means to do OR:Synthesis. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:14, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Exactly what sentence are we talking about now? You mention several.--Farang Rak Tham  (Talk) 12:35, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Buddhist values and WPD