Talk:Religious minorities in Iran

message: Please discuss this issue on the talk page - if this revert war continues, I will protect this page. Most likely on the wrong version. Mark Richards 20:45, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I have wasted enough time with this one user.  If you are an admin, you can examine the histroy of the page and the discussions (and ideally a look at this user's other attempts to inject agenda-oriented "facts" into articles) and decide on that basis.  I cannot afford to spend all of my time in Wikipedia arguing with this one user in various talk pages.  One does not need be an expert to see that he is crafting goal-oriented (as opposed to fact-oriented) articles in certain areas.  --K1 20:59, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: To have an idea of what kind of a person he is notice how he just reverted the article, but in his history message he put "Attempt at finding NPOV - not a revert".  This is how sneaky and dishonest he is and that is fully consistent with his "contributions" to various articles.   --K1 21:21, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Revert war

message: Thanks for that! Can we now move back to here and talk matters over ? Refdoc 21:41, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  revert war over 

message: 1) I still think we work with different definitions of "religious minority", and we could see easier eye-to-eye if we used the same definition and clarified to others what definition we are using. 
2) Sunni - religious minority: multiple Human Rights organisations mention Sunni muslims in Iran as a religious minority - so I am not alone. I am too tired now, but will add links tomorrow
3) Sufi - religious minority: same as above, maybe it depends what definition you are using, but the case is clearer cut for some
4) Sunni again - is it not so - I expect correction if wrong - that Sunnis have a guaranteed number of members of parliament - indication in my eyes that they are seen as a specific an d separate group...
5) Apostasy - Aghajari has been convicted of such, so please do not tell me it is not an issue in Iran. I know not many Islamic countries who convict people and want to punish them with execution for apostasy.  Iran is not alone in this matter - but not too many share this particular honor of fellowship.  Refdoc 00:19, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  disputed facts 

message: I unprotected this, since there was no discussion for a few days, if there is still an issue, let me know, and I can protect it at a more controversial version! Mark Richards 19:55, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed protection

message: Hello Mr. K1. I also left for you message in page of Mr. Roozbeh about this fight. It is like day clear Mr. Refdoc wants write this article in special method. I compared history of what you write and what Mr. Refdoc write and I think you say truth. Mr. Refdoc said no other religious practice is allowed in Iran. When you said you were in Sikh temple in Tehran he removed that part from article. Then he changed "not allowed" to "illegal" like we are bargaining for price in Tehran bazaar with shop owner instead of encyclopedia article writing! And I think the reason Mr. Refdoc fight you about breaking up muslims in Iran in groups is so that he can avoid fact that in Iran 99% of people is Muslim. From Christian promotion this is very bad statistic. You know they also try hard to force Christianity in China. They dream of this. In Christian mentality unless you convert to Christianity you go to hell. This is so rude and prejudice mentality. Thank you. Charles Shu.
: 1) K1 did not clarify where the temple is situated - private house, embassy , public place of worship or whatever.
: 2) I am not entirely clear how 'avoiding the facts' can help me in my 'Christian promotion'. I think this is a bit flawed logic. I would think in any such endeavour clear planning and accurate information is of benefit... 
: 3) I have used commonly recognised terms, I defined them and I responded to criticism by sharpening my expressions. If you prefer to call this 'bargaining for price in tehran bazaar' ah well... 
: 4) I understand that Iranian law makes a distinction between Sunni an Shia and gives them minority rights - q.e.d.. 
: 5) With regard to Christian lack of politeness and non-Christians eternal destiny - I do not think that this was really the subject of this article, but FWIW - I indeed subscribe to the position that Jesus Christ is our only way to salvation. I make no secret out of this but hope it does not influence my attempts to achieve NPOV too much. I am open to criticism. And you and others are able to correct my edits. 
: 6) Finally: Do get a user account, otherwise the suspicion is strong that there is a bit of sockpuppetery going on.  Refdoc 16:01, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Support for K1's position 

message: No debate, no editing for months. The notice is now gone Refdoc 23:08, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  removal of NPOV notice 

message: The addition is good, only, I am a bit at a loss about the university bit - Sure, Bahai can feel preessure to claim falsely they are Muslims in order to get entry. But this applies to every other  person who is a convert or otehrwise "heretical". And it applies much further than jsut on universities - How about a Bahai wanting to get a commission in the armed forces? (Sure they are pacifist, but you get my meaning) or wanting to become judges? Or senior civil service? Or a Christian convert. Similar scenarios.
So instead of picking out universities and Bahai's it would make more sense to have a more general sentence -saying access to higher education, army commissions, positions in teh judiciary etc etc etc is restricted to those who are Muslim or belong - by birth - to a recognised religious minority. Refdoc 11:45, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bahai 

message: Zereshk - could you provide us with a bit more information re this picture - i.e. age of the temple, currently in use, etc etc. Thanks ~~
:All I know is that the temple was built in the Qajar era, and it had to do with the Indian soldiers that were serving in the British army stationed in Bandar Abbas. I dont know who the architect is, but except for the dome, there isnt that much worth to see of the building anyway. I scanned the picture from a Sazeman e Miras e Farhangi tourist guide. I dont think the temple is in use anymore nowadays. But the picture is still worth posting, I think, because it is a sign that other religions have been practising in Iran, and that Iran is not the stereotypical land of mosques only.--Zereshk 03:35, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hindu temple picture 

message: The last edit by an anonymous user deleted important facts - potential death sentence for apostasy, and introduced falsehoods on other counts - Christians, Zartushtis and Jews do not have full and complete legal rights - far from it. Starting with reduced blood money, continueing with discriminatory inheritance rights, lack of access to higher ranks in military, judiciary and civil service, interference in religiosu education etc etc. I have not reviewed the added external link. I will do so and possibly re-insert Refdoc 23:03, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anonymous User 

message: Any examples ? Refdoc 12:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tribal Religions 

message: If there is going to be a gallery, then a picture regarding the Baha'i Faith and it's persecution has to be in that gallery given that it is the largest religious minority. -- Jeff3000 04:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image location  

message: Is it posible to produce more up-to-date figures for the numbers of each minority. The pre-revoultion table provided is from 1976, and the overall population of Iran has more than doubled since then. Given that Iran recognises Judaism, Christianity and, Zoroastrianism, surely somewhere the republic lists a population estimate for these groups at least.  If not, there must be reliable estimates floating somewhere in cyberspace? --Indisciplined 13:45, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population numbers 

message: The article contains now severela referecnes   to Bahai religion as largest religious minority. This is obviously wrong - 1) Sunni if seen as a religious minority  are many time smore 2) we do not have any numbers for e.g. Ahl Haqq, Shaykhis etc 3) Christians are given in the various published numebrs anything between 100.000 and 300.000. Latter is identical with estimates about Iranian Bahai. Refdoc 03:09, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From Federation Internationale des Ligues des Droits de L'Homme "Therefore, despite the fact that they constitute the largest religious minority in Iran, the Bahá’ís are a “non-recognized” religious minority without any legal existence, classified as “unprotected infidels” by the authorities." -- Jeff3000 03:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It is a 3rd party reference, that meets the verifiability standards of Wikipedia. -- Jeff3000 03:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: If you want a peer-reviewed academic article, then take a look at "Christopher Buck. Islam and Minorities: The Case of the Bahá'ís. Studies in Contemporary Islam, 5(1):83–106, 2003." which also states the same thing.  The article clearly passes Wikipedia's reliable source standards, and can be cited.  -- Jeff3000 03:36, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Really depends.  The different Christian denominations in the US are not considered minorities in the US, and even Iran doesn't consider the Sunni population a minority, but part of the whole Islamic population of the country. -- Jeff3000 03:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: But note in all forms for the government of Iran the option is Islam; they don't divide it into two or more.  Regardless I've used the term "non-Islamic" religious minority which when used with the reliable sources is accurate. -- Jeff3000 03:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Largest religious minority ? 

message: I removed the picture of the Jewish film - it was a nice picture, but it was not fair use. Fair use of a Screenshot would be something discussing the film. Refdoc 03:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish picture removed 

message: This is a very poor section. Large parts should simply not be there - we have a full length article on Bahai persection and do not need to dublicate effort. Refdoc 03:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Baha'i section is used in summary style which is an acceptable practice in Wikipedia. -- Jeff3000 03:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I disagree, a summary style execution, as it is currently, is warrented in this article. The wording and flow might be cleaned up, but the amount of content that discusses the persecution in this article compared to the length of the Persecution of Baha'is article is minimal at most and fits summary style guidelines. -- Jeff3000 03:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: What about the picture?  Remove it?  I don't really have an opinion?  Remove it if you feel strongly.  -- Jeff3000 03:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Situation 

message: I have removed the census table as it is so out of date it has become pointless. Population growth and emigration of religious minorities have made this not even useful as a general iundicator. I think we would be better off with some vague estimates based on current knowledge. Refdoc 04:16, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, how do you think this information is best presented? -- Jeff3000 04:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I only have estimates of the Baha'i population.  Do you have any others? -- Jeff3000 04:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Census table removed 

message: Thanks for the editing RefDoc. -- Jeff3000 04:34, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article is much better 

message: The map is sourced and of a recognised source too. It might not be accurate - if so, sources for a dispute are required - both for putting up a tag or for deleting it and exchanging it with something better. Saying "I don't like it!" does not constitute a dispute Refdoc 11:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: I'm curious about more ethinic/religious demographic details in Iran, especially these questions: 
Are most non-Muslims in Iran Persians?
Are most Sunni Muslims in Iran Persians?
Are most Arabs in Iran Shia Muslims? 
What about the percentages of the Akhbari and the Shaykhi minority Shia subsects compared to the Usooli? --KMF 07:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Demographic Details? 

message: Someone has shortened the article by taking all non-Bahai related stuff. This is not acceptableRefdoc 09:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: = religious Persecution 

message: Baha'is as a matter of principle do not lie about their religion, (i.e. They do not practice Taqiyya).  There are a multitude of Baha'i sources, see here, here, and here.  But since I didn't want to use a Baha'i source, I found another source.  Do you have a source that states that they lie?  Unless you have a reliable source, the statement stands.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 04:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Matter of Religious Principle 

message: I'm listing here all the sources that I have access to to the so-called Golpaygani memorandum which was originally reported on by Galindo Pohl in UN Doc. E/CN.4/1993/41, Commission on Human Rights, 49th session, 28 January 1993, Final report on the situation of human rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran by the Special Representative of the Commission on Human Rights, Mr. Reynaldo Galindo Pohl, paragraph 310.
*From Federation Internationale des Ligues des Droits de l'Homme — "The peculiarity of the persecution faced by the Bahá’ís in Iran is its systematic and particularly organized nature, proven by the emergence in early 1993 of a secret official document giving precise instructions for the slow strangulation of the Bahá’í community. Drafted in 199121 by Iran’s Supreme Revolutionary Cultural Council at the request of the Islamic Republic’s Supreme Leader and approved by the latter, this memorandum came to light in the 1993 report by the Special Representative to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights. It sets forth specific guidelines for dealing with “the Bahá’í question” so that Bahá’í “progress and development [be] blocked”.
*From the Journal of War Crimes, Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity — "Since the early 1990s, there have been increased efforts to suffocate the Iranian Bahá'ís through more 'silent' means. Most noteworthy is a confidential circular (see Appendix A for a reprint) issued by the Supreme Revolutionary Cultural Council and signed by President Khamenei in early 1991, which actually organized the methods of oppression used to debilitate the Bahá'ís.2 The memorandum contains specific recommendations on how to block the development and the progress of the Bahá'í Community notonly inside but also outside of Iran, while avoiding the most excessive types of persecutions."
*From the Iran Human Rights Documentation Center — "Evidence of a renewed regime focus on the Bahá’í community came in a confidential memo dated February 25, 1991, written by Dr. Seyyed Mohammad Reza Hashemi Golpaygani, Secretary of the Supreme Council of the Cultural Revolution.332 The memo summarizes the steps taken towards the development of a new government policy on “The Bahá’í Question” before enumerating the actual policy initiatives that resulted from the process. In December of 1990, Ayatollah Khamenei instructed President Rafsanjani to address “the Bahá’í Question,” and the issue was referred to the Supreme Council of the Cultural Revolution (SCCR).333 It is clear from the text of the memo that Ayatollah Khamenei was seeking concrete policy proposals “devised in such a way that everyone will understand what should or should not be done.”"
:*"Memorandum by Dr. Seyyed Mohammad Reza Hashemi Golpaygani, Secretary of the Supreme Council of the Cultural Revolution, dated 6/12/1369 (February 25, 1991) [hereinafter SCCR Memorandum] [attached as Appendix 7]. The documentalso appears to contain a note from the Supreme Leader (see IRAN’S SECRET BLUEPRINT, supra note 186, at 51). This document was brought to the attention of UN Special Representative Reynaldo Galindo Pohl in 1993"
*In Religious Human Rights in Global Perspective — "In 1993, a secret document surfaced which confirmed that these acts were all officially sanctioned by Iranian President Rafsanjani and the states' religious leader, Ali Khamenei."
*From the journal Studies in Contemporary Islam — "Personally endorsed by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei on 25 February 1991 and written by Dr. Seyyed Mohammad Golpaygani, secretary of the Supreme Revolutionary Cultural Council, this document advises government officials, among other things, to expel Bahá’ís from universities, “once it becomes known that they are Bahá’ís.”"
*In Minorities, Peoples And Self-determination — "The most vivid indication of the intentional government policy against the Baha'is in Iran, and particularly its focus on economic, social and cultural denials tagerting them, stems from a 1991 governmental direction.  This directive was uncovered in the 1993 report of the UN Special Representative of the Human Rights Situation in Iran to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights.  Whilst the Iranian delegation dismissed it as a forgery, many other observers acknowledged its accuray in relation to the Baha'i situation.  The Circular has been issued by the Supreme Revoluationarly Cultural Council on 25 February 1991 and concerned official policy to be follwed in relation to the Baha'is.  Its main thrust was encapsulated in section (a)(iii), 'the Government's treatment of them shall be such that their progress and development shall be blocked through sever educational, ideological, cultural, propaganda and economic pressures."
*In Religious Minorities in Iran — "However, a secret memorandum from the Supreme Revolutionary Cultural Council and Ayatollah Khamenei offered recommendations on the "Bahai question"{cite book | first = Eliz | last = Sanasarian | title = Religious Minorities in Iran | location = Cambridge | publisher = Cambridge University Press | year = 2000 | pages = pp. 121 | id = }}
*In 2001 Report on International Religious Freedom — "In 1993 the U.N. Special Representative reported the existence of a government policy directive on the Baha’is. According to the directive, the Supreme Revolutionary Council instructed government agencies to block the progress and development of the Baha’i community, expel Baha’i students from universities, cut the Baha’is’ links with groups outside the country, restrict the employment of Baha’is, and deny Baha’is ‘‘positions of influence,’’ including those in education."
Note that all of them are non-Baha'i sources.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 07:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Galindo Document 

message: Why? There is no reason for a separate religious minorities in Iran. They could be merged into one fine article. -Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Support merge The religion in Iran article was created later, so that's why there are two. I agree that the minorities one could be merged here quite nicely. Mangostar (talk) 08:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Oppose Merge - [...] could be merged here quite nicely - only to require unmerging again after a while because the article has grown too much. Refdoc (talk) 16:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Support merge I would have to say it should be merged into the Religious minorities section of the article. Why would it require unmerging again after a while? There are already articles on Christianity in Iran, Zoroastrians in Iran, Persian Jews, Hinduism in Iran, in addition to Religion in Iran,  --BoogaLouie (talk) 14:26, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: With a vote of 3 to 1 in favor I will be merging this article in a week unless I hear any protest. --BoogaLouie (talk) 23:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Page has been merged. Just changed page to redirect Religion in Iran --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:34, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge w/[[Religion in Iran]] (copied from that article talk page)