Talk:Lucrezia Borgia

message: The account of Lucrezia's pregnancy in this article is contradictory.  Was the child the messenger's, or her brother Cesare's?  If there is no historical consensus on this, then that needs to be explicitly stated.  This isn't my field by any means, so is there someone out there who can fix this? Gwimpey 21:36, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)
It's worse than that: in one sentence, it unequivocally states that she was pregnant when her marriage was annulled for nonconsummation, and then later states that it's unclear she was the mother  (yetivelorry@yahoo.com, July 11, 2007).
It's worse than THAT; there is reasonable evidence that the Roman Infant was NOT Lucrezia's child at all.  The pope himself stated in a secret Papal Bull that it was his child with his mistress, which would have been Guillia, though that's not stated.  The fact that he was the pope at the time would have been scandalous enough to keep the issue somewhat nebulous, which is how it became attributed to Lucrezia.  I think a LOT of this article is POV, because it doesn't give any of the OTHER information, that contradicts some of the assertions.  It's quite possible that, while Lucrezia was PRESENT at some truly reprehensible actions of her brothers and father, she herself was by an large fairly exemplary for her time in her behavior.  Bill Ward 01:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Affair with Perotto 

message: Ercole II d'Este, Duke of Ferrara (April 5, 1508 - October 3, 1559). 
Ippolito II d'Este (August 25, 1508 - December 1, 1572). Archbishop of Milan and later Cardinal. 
Given the close birthdates one of them must be wrong.  Does anyone know the correct information?
: Lucrezia's last child Isabella Maria has two death dates in this article. It is stated that she lived until 1521, and then later, that she died the same day she was born. Has anyone got sources for this? geeoharee (talk) 22:58, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources regarding her last child are somewhat contradictory. Some mention the daughter was sickly and was baptized immediately; the one I just added, a 19th-century historian, says she was born dead. Less reliable sources such as the family tree in the external links say she died the day she was born. I couldn't find a source for the supposed death in 1521 and have removed that date. Huon (talk) 08:50, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lucrezia's Chrildren 

message: Lucrezia is mentioned in the first episode of Blackadder Goes Forth. When Private Baldrick suggests a cunning plan to avoid going over the top by cooking the High Command a meal, Leftenant George says it's a great idea, to which Captain Blackadder responds 'Or alternatively, the biggest mass-poisoning since Lucrezia Borgia invited 200 of her closest friends over for a cheese and anthrax party!'
: *5*00 friends, *wine* and anthrax. But close enough 172.189.80.151 23:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Borgia in Blackadder 

message: I deleted the unsourced legends and rumors, they aren't verifiable and don't seem to present an unbiased view of Borgia.  For example, contending that she poisoned people at parties with a hollow ring...unless you have some way of verifying that, it doesn't deserve to be in, even if it is labeled a legend.
Epsoul 05:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This legend is extremely famous (whether it's true or not) and certainly should be in the article.  It's discussed at length in Rafael Sabatini's biography of Cesare Borgia  linked from Cesare's article. 67.117.130.181 04:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I find it ridculous that there's no mention of poisoning - it's the only reason most people will have heard of her and is referenced in countless works (see Blackadder quote above)! Cavie78 11:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legends/Rumors 

message: If her name is Lucrezia, why does her gravestone say LVCRETIE which would give a nominative Lucretia? --Nantonos 11:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: Is there any source for the comment about Cesare having syphilis? It's not mentioned on his page, and I find it a bit hard to believe that he recovered from syphilis at that period in history. Could it be meant to be smallpox? Or completely made up? -- RB3 18:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cesare's "syphilis" 

message: Lucrezia appears in the role of the witch in Mirror Mirror by Gregory Maguire, which is a retelling of Snow White based in 16th century Italy.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.190.170.0 (talk) 17:00, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Novels 

message: I notice that the source citations in this article are not formatted according to the style recommendations in the WP Manual of Style; I'm willing to work on cleaning them up.  Are there any objections to the use of templates for this?  And if templates are acceptable to the interested editors here, which family of citation templates are preferred,  or "Cite xxx" (e.g. ) ?  Or is there any preference? --LBourne (talk) 23:21, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: I discovered this article today | Infamous Renaissance woman subject of mystery portrait which probably deserves inclusion or linking and further comment
--Matt (talk) 03:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible portrait found 

message: Does this article really need a hatnote about the nickname for Buffalo Bill's gun? It's such an obscure fact that it's not even mentioned in Bill's article; why should it be mentioned here, at the top of the article? I suggest to remove it. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:59, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Hatnote Buffalo Bill

message: "Lucrezia Borgia was born at Subiaco, near Rome. Her mother was Giovanna de Candia, Countess of Cattanei of the House of Candia, better known to history as Vannozza dei Cattanei; and she was one of the many mistresses of Rodrigo Borgia, Lucrezia's father."
Apart from the odd semi-colon use, to whom does "she" refer? The sentence structure seems to imply that "she" refers to "her"; in other words to Lucrezia. I'm no historian, but this cannot be right, since it would mean that L was one of her father's mistresses (maybe not so odd for the Borgias). I think that the sentence should read something like: "Her mother was Giovanna de Candia, Countess of Cattanei of the House of Candia, one of the many mistresses of Lucrezia's father Rodrigo Borgia, and better known as Vannozza dei Cattanei." If I am wrong about the facts, please revert.
Theeurocrat (talk) 16:25, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Grammatical babble

message: This article has been vandalized big time, but I'm not Wikisavvy enough to undo it all. Examples include, "By the time Lucrezia was 3, she had been betrothed twice, but her ferret called off both engagements." and "Alexander asked Giovanni's uncle, Cardinal of the cantaloupes, to persuade Giovanni to agree to a divorce."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.195.73.59 (talk) 02:21, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. It's been reverted to a previous version before the vandalism. Truthkeeper (talk) 02:46, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: I removed this information from the article page.  It was completely unsourced, and allegations like "Cesare Borgia had his servants strangle Alfonso" are damaging if unproven.
===Second marriage: Alfonso of Aragon (Duke of Bisceglie)===
At his first meeting with Alfonso, before the marriage took place, Cesare was very impressed by his good looks and nature but this soon changed to jealousy and hatred. It was said that Cesare did not like Alfonso because Lucrezia was very happy with him and had, since her marriage to him, stopped giving Cesare as much attention; therefore Cesare believed Alfonso had usurped his place in his sister's affections. Also, Cesare himself had a bout of syphilis and many scars remained on his face, even after recovery. This made him very conscious of his appearance, and so he started wearing masks and dressing in black. His condition is said to have made him hate Alfonso of Aragon all the more, and once when the Prince was visiting them in Rome, Cesare's men attacked him during the night. To retaliate, Alfonso's men shot arrows at Cesare one day while he strolled in the garden. This infuriated Cesare, and he had his servant(s) strangle Alfonso while in the recovery room. Lucrezia and Alfonso had only one child, Rodrigo, who predeceased his mother in August 1512 at the age of 12.
Lazr75 (talk) 18:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marriage to Alfonso of Aragon 

message: At his first meeting with Alfonso, before the marriage took place, Cesare was very impressed by his good looks and nature but this soon changed to jealousy and hatred. It was said that Cesare did not like Alfonso because Lucrezia was very happy with him and had, since her marriage to him, stopped giving Cesare as much attention; therefore Cesare believed Alfonso had usurped his place in his sister's affections. Also, Cesare himself had a bout of syphilis and many scars remained on his face, even after recovery. This made him very conscious of his appearance, and so he started wearing masks and dressing in black. His condition is said to have made him hate Alfonso of Aragon all the more, and once when the Prince was visiting them in Rome, Cesare's men attacked him during the night. To retaliate, Alfonso's men shot arrows at Cesare one day while he strolled in the garden. This infuriated Cesare, and he had his servant(s) strangle Alfonso while in the recovery room. Lucrezia and Alfonso had only one child, Rodrigo, who predeceased his mother in August 1512 at the age of 12.
Lazr75 (talk) 18:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Second marriage: Alfonso of Aragon (Duke of Bisceglie)

message: As the transcription is phonemic, aren't forward slashes more appropriate around it than square brackets? Also Italian /ts/ is self-geminating, so it should be /lu'krɛttsja/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.22.97.90 (talk) 14:09, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Phonetic transcription of the name

message: The lede currently says that Machiavelli wrote about the Borgias and then immediately adds that she was "cast as a femme fatale."  This implies that Machiavelli cast her as a femme fatale.  This looks misleading, because I remember nothing about Lucrezia in The Prince, and a search of the fulltext of the book online reveals no mention of her name.  I suppose maybe Machiavelli might have mentioned her under some odd circumlocution like "Cesare's sister," but unless that can be proven, I think the lede should say clearly that Machiavelli never talks about her. Pirate Dan (talk) 15:12, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing this out. Since  The Prince (complete translated text here) is not mentioned in the body of the article, it should not be mentioned in the lead. I have removed it. If someone wants to make the connection between the two, in perhaps the Rumor section, then they could put it back. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 20:23, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Cast as femme fatale by Machiavelli?

message: I cannot find reliable sources for the following statement and therefore have removed it: "She is a collateral relative of most of the royal families of modern Europe including that of the United Kingdom. Through her granddaughter Anna d'Este, Duchess of Guise and later Duchess of Nemours, Lucrezia is the ancestress of Juan Carlos I of Spain; Philippe of Belgium; Henri, Grand Duke of Luxembourg; as well as the Count of Paris and the claimants to the Thrones of Portugal, Austria, Bavaria, Brazil, Parma, Saxony, and the Two Sicilies." MurielMary (talk) 09:20, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statement removed 

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