Talk:Animal testing/Archive 4

message: *The following is repeated later in the "Number of Animals Used" section and, IMO, should be removed (as the article is far too long already): 'mostly inside universities, medical schools, pharamceutical companies, and commercial facilities that provide animal-testing services to industry"
*The sentence after that "Testing is also carried out..." should be moved to join the section regarding the institutions in the "Number of Animals Used" section.
*After the list of research types, the paragraph contains "Examples of developments that used animal research..." There should be a counter agrument at least referenced for the penicillin one - as this, according to various places was held back by animal tests. eg 
:: Our debate appears to have disappeared, however i generally agree the counter argument is needed. My only concern is that predictive revisionism on either side is invalid. So just as pros often claim that any breakthrough would not have been made without animals (we can never know, as animals were used), antis try to claim that the breakthroughs would have happened despite animal testing (again, we can never know as animals were used). Thats why i'd be happier saying that whether animals were essential or required in these studies are in question, rather than any breakthrough would have happened/ not happened with or without them. Anything else is simply speculation, as the source acknowledges with their caveat, '...as was almost the case with penicillin." (my bold). Rockpocket 21:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

message: *The final sentence of paragraph 1 seems a bit 'tag on'. It should be moved to an earlier place in the paragraph and used after the overall figures are stated (eg. "Accurate global figures for animal testing are hard to obtain. The British Union for the Abolition of Vivisection (BUAV) estimates that 100 million animals are experimented on around the world every year, 10–11 million of them in the European Union and 1,101,958 in the United States in 2004, whilst the Nuffield Council on Bioethics reports that "[e]stimates of the total number of animals used annually in research around the world are difficult to obtain and range from between 50 to 100 million animals", bearing in mind that their numbers do not include those animals bred for research and killed as surplus, or used for breeding purposes."
::I agree that this section needs a rewrite. I have just updated the numbers section with UK 2004 figures taken directly from the Home Office publication, which is referenced. In doing so, I added two big categories - breeding and applied studies - which for some reason had been omitted from the previous set of figures. If anyone is doing deletions from this section: I would suggest deleting the figure for psychological stress, which is included for no apparent reason, and the phrase about the reason for use of beagles, which is not referenced and may not be true. I added that they are purpose-bred, which is more of a reason for their use than the fact that they are friendly and gentle. Ermintrude 21:03, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Slim asked why I changed "[e]stimate ..." to "estimate ..." in the paragraph preceding the numbers edits. Sorry, I spotted this, it looked very odd, and I naturally thought it was an error - I didn't realise the square brackets in [e]stimate had any significance. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. Ermintrude 21:24, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It means the first word in the quote was the first word in the original sentence i.e. was originally capitalized. Anything in square brackets indicates an editorial addition. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:07, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am aware of the normal convention to put editorial additions in square brackets. However, the letter e is not an addition. Why not just capitalise it here? Or is this a Wikipedia convention? Ermintrude 09:08, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not a Wikipedia convention. It is how it is done. The upper-case E was changed to a local-case e, and this is noted by means of square brackets, to signify an editorial change: in this case that a clause that was the beginning of a sentence is being used as a clause within a sentence. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:40, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never seen brackets used thus to capitalise a word, and I really don't think it matters that much, except that because the line breaks after [e] it looks odd. BTW, did you really mean local-case? Ermintrude 19:56, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Number of animals used

message: ======Toxicology tests======
*The image seems very staged to me. But that might be just me being POV.
:: It is staged, as any technician would be asked permission before a picture was taken! Nevertheless, it is typical of a beagle pen in a UK facility and i have seen many technicians playing with the animals in this manner. Thus i thinks its fairly representative. Rockpocket 21:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'd suggest removing this paragraph as its repeated, with references, under 'Drug testing'. Infact this whole section is a bit of a mishmash, it might be better to focus this part on safety testing of coumpounds only and leave the references to drugs for that section, as the legislation is different. Rockpocket 21:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'd like to include the legislation here, it its important to make clear that these processes are obliged under law. Rockpocket 21:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  Fair point, i'll change it. I also intend to add short sections on types of tests used in basic and applied research. I feel there is a bias towards info on toxicology testing (perhaps because that is the most emotive use) which is not consistent with the number of animals used in practice. A rar greater number of animals are used for pure and applied research, for balance some example of these types of procedures should be illustrated. Rockpocket 21:31, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Types of Experiments

message: *The image seems very staged to me. But that might be just me being POV.
:: It is staged, as any technician would be asked permission before a picture was taken! Nevertheless, it is typical of a beagle pen in a UK facility and i have seen many technicians playing with the animals in this manner. Thus i thinks its fairly representative. Rockpocket 21:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'd suggest removing this paragraph as its repeated, with references, under 'Drug testing'. Infact this whole section is a bit of a mishmash, it might be better to focus this part on safety testing of coumpounds only and leave the references to drugs for that section, as the legislation is different. Rockpocket 21:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'd like to include the legislation here, it its important to make clear that these processes are obliged under law. Rockpocket 21:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Toxicology tests

message: *The term "tragedy" should be removed as it is highly emotive language.
:: Fair point, i'll change it. I also intend to add short sections on types of tests used in basic and applied research. I feel there is a bias towards info on toxicology testing (perhaps because that is the most emotive use) which is not consistent with the number of animals used in practice. A rar greater number of animals are used for pure and applied research, for balance some example of these types of procedures should be illustrated. Rockpocket 21:31, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Drug Testing

message: *The opening sentence is mis-representative - it states that all animal rights people believe that animal tests are ok where necessary. It is likely just a grammatical error.
*The paragraph "In the United States....many research institutions comply voluntarily" needs a reference for the last sentence.
*Skipping the next paragraph, each of the points in the next paragraph need a reference
*The computer simulations mentioned also need to mention data from clinical trials/testing on humans.
:: Reading this again, the last few sentences are vague to the level of being incorrect. "[cultured] hepatocytes... can function almost 50% as well as in vivo hepatocytes" is meaningless, as unless they were transplanted into animals its impossible to compare. It the very least it should be reworded and the parameters for function should be included along with a reference, or else it should be removed. 
:: Myocardial cells don't technically 'beat', the whole heart does with the 'beating' a result of the pumping of blood. Hearts that pump blood are yet to be cultured (Catherine Zandonella, Nature 421, 884 - 886 (2003)). Instead cardiac muscle cells in culture retain the ability to contract under induction (Tseng CE et al, Pediatr Res. 1999 Feb;45(2):260-9: "...cells were observed to beat at rates varying between 25-75 beats per minute (bpm) after the addition of 1.8 mM CaCl2", my bold). I assume thats what the contributor means. I'm not too bothered about using the word 'beat' instead of contract as its widely used, but it is important to state that they require chemical induction, unlike hearts in vivo, of course, which go all by themselves. I can also find no published account of human myocytes contracting in culture without the use of animal products in the media... hardly a good example of an animal free alternative.
:: The keratinocyte statement, like hepatocytes, is without basis. How does one determine if a cell is functioning at 80% capacity of another unless they measured in the same environment? What is the 'capacity' of a cell? I presume the contributor is referring to 80% of gene expression, respiration or energy production levels, but without a citation its impossible to know. I'm not adverse to having examples of how culture techniques can be used as an alternative to animals - there are plenty of good ones - but these are not them. Instead they appear to be unsubstantiated facts about certain cell types, talked up to make them sound as functionally equivilant to their organs of origin.  If no-one can come up with justification for these statements i suggest we scratch them and i'll put together some examples with citations. Rockpocket 00:16, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Those suggestions seem valid, localzuk, with the caveats i have mentioned in the text. I'll try and dig out some references that are missing. Rockpocket 21:33, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree. These suggestions are mostly excellent I think, as it had got into a bit of a mess. However, I hesitate to edit anything as my edits do not seem to be welcome. Ermintrude 21:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ermintrude, i think your input would be welcomed, just be wary of removing anything major without explaining here first and allowing the community a comeback. I've found additions are most welcome, however, if explained and referenced. Rockpocket 22:07, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would help a lot if Ermintrude would refrain from deleting anything at all. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:09, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternatives to animal testing

message: In an unrelated to the article tangent, I would like to ask what people think regarding the length of time that should be left between "archivings" of this talk page. It is starting to get long again and will likely be too big for anyone with a modem in the next week or so (if it isn't already). How about a 1 month time limit or is this too short? -localzuk 12:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think, as the talk page is now 143kb long (will be longer now I have typed this), we need to archive again in a few days. If it is ok with everyone, I will archive again on Friday 20th Jan. -Localzuk (talk) 12:33, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have archived the page again. -Localzuk (talk) 13:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive Policy for this article 

message: The article in question took an unbiased position on whether testing on nonhuman animals is acceptable, but a similar page considered similar experiments on unconsenting humans to be an atrocity, without consulting opposing viewpoints. In the interests of true neutrality, you should include arguments in favor of testing on humans under the same rules used for testing on nonhuman animals, whatever those rules may be. Without these arguments in place in the human-experimentation articles, you make an inherent value judgement; you assume the biased position that humans are superior and/or more worthy of consideration.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.105.73.180 (talk • contribs) .
:Could you explain what you mean? Are you referring to the entire Animal testing article? If so, the article is supposed to discuss Animal testing as a practice - not put a moral slant on the position of humans over animals. It is an encyclopedia article that is supposed to be free from POV and is supposed to point out facts as covered by references. I may be misunderstanding you though. -Localzuk (talk) 12:36, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparisons 

message: Here's an interesting discussion point: What if alien lifeforms, vastly superior to the human race, were to somehow invade Earth, and use us for animal testing and research; and their defense was that they are more advanced and therefore, it was okay for them to use us? What would that do for animal testing now? Should this issue even be raised? I mean, if we discover a superior race, it may trash the whole notion of humans being "unique"; or maybe it wouldn't. I'm not taking sides; just was interested what would happen to the state of animal research if this was to occur.
: What if, indeed. I (personally) don't see the conflict, as the basis on which humans are often considered 'unique' is in terms of consciousness or self awareness (though some would argue certain animals display elements of these characteristics too). The moral justification for animal research is not based on the fact humans are 'superior' or 'unique', but on an assessment of most other animals apparent lack of sophisticated apperception (hence the almost universal distaste for testing on great apes). A "superior" lifeform should recognise that humans are both sentient and sapient, and thus treat us as such. Or else we're screwed. Rockpocket 01:17, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't worry, if we were being invaded, I'm sure another vastly superior alien in a blue box would come along and save the day anyway70px--64.12.116.132 21:17, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What If? 

message: As this page was very long again, I have archived it. The prior conversations are again available from the links at the top of the talk page.-Localzuk (talk) 14:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archived Again 

message: Slim Virgin, Why did you revert my edits to the intro. I posted the proposed changes in the talk pages, and I never saw you had any comment about them. Finally, the statment I keep deleting about animals not feeling pain is completely unsourced. If you follow the link of the source, it gives you some random piece of legislation that says nothing about whether animals feel less pain or not. Which is why I deleted it. This was also put on the talk page for discussion and you never raised any objections. 
:I don't have time to keep responding to these points, because they've all been dealt with already, and if you would read the source, you would see that the section is supported by it: "Some people believe, in addition, that animals may be used because they suffer less than humans would, if subject to the same procedures. This belief is partly verifiable. Some animals, certainly mammals and birds, have similar pain receptors and central nervous pathways to humans, and may therefore have much the same capacity to feel physical pain as humans do.[43] But the capacity to feel pain is not the same as the capacity to experience suffering or distress, and this is less easy to measure.[44] It is extremely difficult to conclude with confidence how much suffering or distress is caused by an animal's experience of pain, its memory of or anticipation of pain, or by the fact of its confinement in a laboratory. As Professor Marian Dawkins noted, "recognition of physical health is relatively easy, the recognition of psychological health is more difficult" (Q. 1793). Researchers need to take a balanced view, but ensure that this view is fully informed by ongoing developments in the understanding of animal cognition and suffering.[45]" SlimVirgin (talk) 16:25, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, the link was pointing to a weird part of the document so I hadn't seen that, fixed the source left the paragraph. Nrets 16:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: See below. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes in the first paragraph 

message: For months now, i have been saying i am going to tackle the types of experiment in Advancing scientific knowledge and Studying disease and developing medicines to balance them up with Drug and Chemical testing. So here is a first attempt. I expect when they are all finished, we may with to edit down all sub-categories of experiment, but we can tackle that when we have all the information down for all of them.
:Advancing scientific knowledge
Basic research increases scientific knowledge about the way organisms behave, develop and function biologically. Although it is not necessarily intended to lead directly to applications for humans, understanding fundamental biological mechanisms is considered essential for medical advances . Both the largest number and greatest variety of laboratory animals are utilized in this type of research. Drosophila melanogaster, Caenorhabditis elegans, mice and rats together account for the vast majority, though small numbers of other species, ranging from sea slugs, through blind cavefish to armadillos, are used for specialised research purposes . Dogs, cats and non-human primates together account for less than 1% of the total number . Examples of the types of animals and experiments used in basic research include:
* Mutagenesis to study mechanisms in embryogenesis and developmental biology. Animals are often treated with chemicals or radiation to generate defective embryos. By studying disrupted development, scientists aim to understand both how organisms develop normally and abnormally . The 1995 and 2002 Nobel Prizes in Physiology or Medicine were awarded for research into developmental processes in animals . Embryos used in experiments are often not covered by legislation and therefore not always required to be reported. Consequently, those that believe embryos are de facto animals claim the published number of experimental animals used is an under-representation.
* Behavioural experiments to understand how organisms detect and interact with each other and their environment. Fruit flies, worms, mice and rats are all widely used in research into mechanisms of vision , taste , hearing , touch  and smell . In addition studies of brain function, such as memory, and social behaviour often use rats and birds . Much less common is the use of larger mammals in these types of studies, but cats are used to study suckling  and vision  and non-human primates are used to investigate social behaviour .
* Breeding experiments to study evolution and genetics. Laboratory mice, flies, fish and worms are inbred through many generations to create strains with defined characteristics  . These provide scientists with animals of a known genetic background, an important tool for genetic analysis that is currently not available when studying outbred subjects (such as most human populations). Larger mammals are rarely bred specifically for such studies due to their longer gestation periods, though some scientists take advantage of inbred domesticated animals, such as dog or cattle breeds, for comparative purposes . Scientists studying mechanisms of evolution use a number of exotic animal species, including mosquitos , sticklebacks , cichlids  and lampreys , due to their niche physiology, morphology, ecology or phylogeny.
I'll add add a section about studying disease and developing medicines soon. In the meantime, feel free to comment or suggest improvements/criticisms. Rockpocket 21:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good so far, just a few comments. In the mutagenesis section, perhaps the most commonly used animal for this is the fruit fly. Many of these studies are not necessarily to study development, but to study the function of a gene. By looking at the mutant phenotype scientists can then identify the mutated gene and gain insight into it's function. This is what is called forward genetics or a genetic screen.  This procedure is also common in Zebrafish. Nrets 02:02, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks. I agree, Nrets - i wrote up developmental biology as an example mainly because the Nobel prizes for the Nüsslein-Volhard fly screen and the C. elegans fate mapping were cited as breakthroughs in developmental mechanisms and both used mutants. I'd planned to explain the gene function/mutangensis concepts a little more under the studying disease section, as reverse genetics is a common way of modelling disease and forward genetic screens often idetify the genes responsible. However, if you can reword that point better to get the concepts across, then please do so. Rockpocket 04:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I agree that this would fit better under "studying disease" Nrets 04:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Welcome addition, RockPocket. Look forward to seeing the  "studying disease" section similarly expanded. It adds balance to have such well-sourced information on animal use in major areas of research. Unfortunately the toxicology section is still largely unsourced and biassed - maybe that can be tackled when the "types of experiment" category is more complete. MedicalScientist 09:14, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I deleted some of the biassed, unsourced and unnecessary information in the toxicology section, as had been suggested here on a few occasions with no objection. However, SlimVirgin immediately reverted. I believe it is normal practise to explain such actions, so can she do so here, please? 217.206.196.218 15:03, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

text: SlimVirgin, the intro to this section states "There are a range of scientific uses of animals, which can be split into three broad and at times overlapping categories." The sections did not reflect this, hence my attempt to split into sections that did (as they did before, ie basic, applied and saftey testing of chemicals). I would prefer it if you could discuss it here, as I did above with no response for 11 days, rather than reverting immediately because you have not understood the point or read the discussion. Then maybe more people can have a say and come to consensus? MedicalScientist 00:32, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Types of Experiment 

message: A new page has been created (dumped) at Europeans for Medical Progress.
I don't think it deserves its own page.  (I could be wrong.)  Nor do I know if there's anything worth keeping in it.  Anyway, I'm going to propose it for a merge here.  If someone could eyeball it and then either merge it or afd it or wikify it as appropriate.  Thanks, Ben Aveling 12:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it deserves to be merged. Looks like completely biassed nonsense to me. MedicalScientist 13:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have flagged it for speedy deletion as it is a blatant copyright violation. -Localzuk (talk) 14:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New article 

message: I have a serious concern with the following statement, which is a common mistruth bandied around anti testing websites:
:"Animal testing is regarded by opponents as bad science because... many drugs have dangerous side-effects that were not predicted by animal models; a well-known example of this is Thalidomide, where birth defects are seen in mice and rabbits, but not rats". 
Thalidomide as an example of the exact opposite of what is claimed here. Its teratogenic side effects "were not predicted by animals models" because it was never tested in a model of teratogenicity. Had animal models been used (as they were after the scale of the tragedy became clear), the side effects would have been picked up. To quote from The History of Thalidomide by Jack Botting (my bold):
::"Th[e] disaster brought on by thalidomide's teratogenic effects was responsible for the institution of some regulatory bodies, such as the United Kingdom's Committee on the Safety of Drugs, and for the strengthening of others, such as the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. An objective examination of published papers and contemporary accounts confirms that the preclinical tests on thalidomide were superficial, and there is no doubt that it was never administered to pregnant animals prior to its use in patients. Within a short time after its withdrawal from the market due to its suspected association with fetal abnormalities, the drug was shown to produce fetal toxicity in laboratory animals. Had there been more extensive testing on laboratory animals before the drug was launched, the disaster could have been avoided."
I notice another editor has tried to balance the original statement by qualifying it, but now it simply sounds contradictory. I suggest this example be removed, or replaced with documented examples of the "many" drugs that have dangerous effects in humans but that were not picked up in animal models. Rockpocket 01:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The editor that added the qualifier about rats is wrong: see King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962), Teratogenic effects of thalidomide in the Sprague Dawley rat, The Lancet ii, 1116. In fact, the teratogenic effects of thalidomide have been seen in  mice, rats, hamsters, rabbits, macaques, marmosets, baboons and rhesus monkeys (refs to scientific papers available for all). So I agree, let's delete the thalidomide example here. If anyone can add a different example that is solid and well-sourced, fine. MedicalScientist 10:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In the spirit of not removing information (even if in this case, the information is misleading), i reworded to make it clear what the situation really is. Though it appears i was logged out, and thus my IP was logged instead of my name. I did the same for the other incorrect claims (i.e. that there is no evidence for teratogenic effects of aspirin in humans, that all models are induced, that the Parkinson's model does not exist). I also deleted the claim that aspirin does not display cardiovascular action in models (that is blatantly not so  ). Everthing has citations and i have more if anyone wasnts to contest. I tried to source the claims already there, as i didn't want to delete them and stand accused of POV pushing, but the sources are not great (probably because the claims are simply not true and most reputable antis are wisening up to the fact). If anyone can find genuine examples then please replace them. As i don't think everything should be countered in this section, but when the claims are false, i think the facts need to be given as a counterpoint. Otherwise we are left either deleting them or leaving them as unsubstatiated claims. Rockpocket 19:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Thalidomide]] 

message: I noticed in a recent edit user:Slim Virgin added a list of hosehold products used for animal testing:  Well-known household products tested on animals include Domestos, Parazone, Ajax, Jif, Mr. Muscle, Flash, Mr. Sheen, Fairy washing-up liquid, Ariel, and Dettox.  While I don't want to start a debate whether names of specific products used for animal testing should be included in this general article or not, I must say that I recognize only two of the supposedly "well-know household products", one is Ajax which to my knowledge is no longer sold, and the other is Jif which is a brand of peanut butter and should be counted as a foodstuff not a household product. I propose we remove or at least append this list to not be so obscure.  Nrets 16:48, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Those products are all household cleaners available in the UK. Personally i don't see the point of having lists like this, as they will be region specific, and they are tokenistic in nature, as pretty much every household cleaner will have been tested in animals either as a finished product or as constituents. I removal or appending to include a more international selection. Rockpocket 17:59, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fairy washing-up liquid? I'd hate to see what they do with that one. ;) Nrets 17:29, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Product placement! But seriously, the tokenistic nature of the list of products, and the contract testing companies, was why I made the changes. Was having Internet problems yesterday, so was inadvertently logged out when I invited SlimVirgin to explain her reverts here. MedicalScientist 10:54, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hosehold Products 

message: The previous subhead, safety testing of chemicals, was more accurate, since tox testing is carried out on both drugs and chemicals and the drug testing bit was moved to its own sub-section.
Can we have reliable sources please for the 'new' description of the Draize test - this looks like antivisection POV to me. Similarly, the first paragraph about Covance in allegations of abuse appears to be a statement of fact as it is not backed up with a source.
I see no good reason to have token lists of companies and household products that are tested. All significantly new products or ingredients have to be tested by law, why pick on a few in this arbitrary (and UK-focussed) list? MedicalScientist 17:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Toxicology tests

message: I must have missed something. When did this go? Are there no POV issues now? MedicalScientist 22:54, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone removed it a while ago due to the person who put it there not providing reasons on here. If you wish to label it as POV then it must have specific reasoning. -Localzuk (talk) 09:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV tag

message: The article contains the following quote: Some cosmetics companies claim that their products are not tested on animals, despite using one or more of the aforementioned practices. Can someone find a source to back this up? Ultimaga 11:56, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: http://worldanimal.net/cos-claims.html seems to state the same thing... -Localzuk (talk) 12:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Source

message: Anyone got any details of regulatory requirements for animal research for drug approval or clinical trial licencing?  I think it is necessary to have something about that in the sections on legal frameworks for animal research in different countries to get the whole picture.  E.g. the EU require "If, however, systemic absorption is demonstrated during therapeutic experimentation, toxicity tests shall be carried out on animals, including where necessary, foetal toxicity tests" warning pdf.--Coroebus 17:41, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Its pretty complex, and unfortunatly, most of the info in the article relates to the EU. There is a brief summary here and the references therein have more. I'm sure we could find sources for US FDA regulations, and possibly Japanese regulations, but i expect that most of them are pretty similar to the EU, i.e. two mammalian toxicity models (one non rodent), a suitable efficacy model, and specific tests if circumstances dictate. I'm not sure if there is a lot to be gained hghlighting slight differences between regulatory systems, but if there were major differences then that would be notable. Rockpocket 18:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, I just wondered if there were - because that, as you say, would be notable.  I was curious to see if it correlated with the strictness of their animal research legislation.  I suppose it is pretty likely they've moved to standardise though.--Coroebus 18:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Its such a complex area to investigate cold, i don't think anyone feels up to it! However, i know some people in clinical trials, i'll find out if there is anything dramatically different, and if there is i'll try and find some references. Rockpocket 18:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Regulatory requirements

message: "Cell culture is currently the most successful, and promising, alternative to animal use. For example, cultured cells have also been developed to create monoclonal antibodies, prior to this production required animals to undergo a procedure likely to cause pain and distress [133]."
The statement above is misleading. It assumes that cell cultures exist out of thin air. Cell cultures come from animals. Thus, it is not an alternative to animal use but at best, merely an application of the "reduction principle."
Danielkueh 16:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That point is made clear in the article, three sentences up: "However, some claim they are not true alternatives since ... cultured cells often require animal derived products" Rockpocket 18:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Misleading

message: A quick read through suggests there is a point of reply missing to the bad science claim. Specifically, that although there may be shortcomings in using animal testing as models, the question is what is the alternative. I think it is fair to say even the most die-hard advocates of animal testing would support a reduction or elimination if they feel all the information obtained can be discovered from other methods. For them, most modern day testing, involves multiple methods including cell culture and computer simulations. While these provide useful information, most advocates would suggest they do not currently generally provide some information that can be obtained via animal testing. Or put it another way, what they're saying is that although there are many limitations and shortcomings with animal testing but it's not bad science because it still provides some information that cannot currently be obtained in any other way and the sum of this information proves to be worth the bad information that is also obtained. Of course there are meaningful replies to this point from opponents for animal testing which don't involve science which are already mentioned and opponents may not agree with this assesement but this doesn't mean it isn't a valid point to be included.
I'm not sure where this should go, perhaps in the advocates for animal testing subsection nor do I have a reference but I feel it is important enough that someone should hopefully search for a reference and include it where appropriate. Nil Einne 16:21, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You, for example, could search for one. :-) SlimVirgin (talk) 16:32, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I forgot to mention, I don't have the time. However, the recent case of the disasterous phase 1 clinical trial in the UK may be a good starting point since it appears to illustrate the point very well. I'm guessing that the drug being tested as it was in a phase 1 clinical trial has tested on at least 2 animal models first and has probably also been tested in cell culture experiments and in numerous other ways. Despite this it still had disasterous consequence [although I suspect however that at least one animal model will be found which does predict the disasterous results if it is tested further]. For some opponents, I guess it supports their view but for many supporters of animal view, I think it supports their view even better. Which is to say that animal testing, may provide the wrong information some times, but how often does it prevent the disaster that occured in this phase 1 clinical trial? For them, pharmaceutical testing especially is a serious of steps, each of which provides some good information and some bad information, none of which can be skipped at the current time unless we want to have many more disasters. Nil Einne 16:41, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was tested on rabbits and monkeys. I think it's too early to extrapolate lessons from it. It could have been a bad batch or something. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Due to their specificity antibody therapies may also be an example of therapies where animal trials alone can be seriously misleading, and that may have been the problem in this case, we shall have to wait and see. --Coroebus 10:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Please remember that this is not a discussion forum for personal beliefs. It is to discuss the content of the article. Also, claims such as 'Face the truth: if someone is opposed to testing, he/she should not enjoy the benefit it brings for us.' as these are POV and have no place in a discussion about the contents of this article. -Localzuk (talk) 20:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bad science 

message: I noticed in a recent edit an  anonymous user added a lengthy list in the middle of the article of companies that do animal testing. Perhaps this might be worth moving to a separate article and adding a link somewhere in the article, or should we leave it as is? Nrets 18:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On the grounds of being unencyclopedic I deleted this list. With all due respect, I don't think any conventional encyclopaedia would publish such a list of alleged companies using animal testing. The article is meant to define what it is; and if applicable, any controversy surrounding the topic. See Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_Is - GSchjetne 19:51, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I support removal of the list from Wikipedia. --Username132 (talk) 09:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List 

message: Hi Slim, i notice you queried:
:"Cosmetics testing is particularly controversial... after 13 years of negotiations, the European Union agreed to ban such testing on animals in 2009, with a ban on products still tested on animals being introduced by 2014."
I agree it doesn't make much sense. It seems to suggest that testing will be banned within the EU from 2009 and bans of products tested on animals outside the EU will be implemented from 2014. I don't believe this to be correct, though. The 2009 date implements a ban on the sale of tested products . However, this article may shed some light on what it is supposed to mean:
:"The agreement to amend the EU's 1976 Cosmetics Directive defines 14 different types of tests currently performed on animals to determine the safety of consumer products. Of those 14 tests, 11 will be banned outright -- well, at least they will be banned by 2009, assuming there are no later extensions to that date. 
:The three remaining tests are designed to measure toxicity and potential reproductive side effects of chemicals. Those tests don't have any viable alternatives to using animals. So they are set to be banned in 2014, unless there are still no viable alternatives by then in which case those tests can be granted a 10 year extension. So maybe by 2024, the EU might be looking at banning all testing on animal products." 
Want to change it, or shall I? Rockpocket 00:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ambiguous sentence 

message: SV commented that the following is either untrue on not demonstrably true:
:"Most scientists and governments say they agree that animal testing should cause as little suffering to animals as possible, and that animal tests should only be performed where necessary. The "three Rs" [119] are guiding principles for the use of animals in research in many countries"
I don't think there are many, at least Western countries, whose guidelines and or laws do not say "animal testing should cause as little suffering to animals as possible" or "animal tests should only be performed where necessary". Of course, since they then go on and define what is 'necessary' and what constitutes 'suffering' themselves, it may appear that those sentiments are not always followed through or adhered to. But in terms of guiding principles for, and in some cases the legal obligation of, those designing and carrying out the experiments, that sentence is pretty accurate in my experience for 5 or 6 European and North American countries (i'm i expect it wouldn't be too difficult to find sources from a few countries to back that up). 
Whether scientists agree with those or not is speculative. I guess one way of rewording might be to change it to "Most scientists are required to work within government guidelines that propose animal testing should cause..." Rockpocket (talk) 18:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  3Rs 

message: === "Human" ===
I propose that the article 'human' has little or no significant relevance to animal testing, the link is unlikely to followed and should therefore be removed from this article. --Username132 (talk) 10:57, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering hon-human primates is linked a few lines further down, i concur that the human in hon-human animals probably does not need to be linked. I have no problem with it being de-linked. Rockpocket (talk) 18:50, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  According to WP:CONTEXT, dates should be linked to allow date preferences to work. I see no reason to de-link this one. Rockpocket (talk) 19:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

text: No problem with delinking countries, but i would suggest the European Union be left as a link, as i think it has context in terms of standardising animal rights law and legislation across the Eurozone. Rockpocket (talk) 19:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dewikification Proposals 

message: I propose that the article 'human' has little or no significant relevance to animal testing, the link is unlikely to followed and should therefore be removed from this article. --Username132 (talk) 10:57, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering hon-human primates is linked a few lines further down, i concur that the human in hon-human animals probably does not need to be linked. I have no problem with it being de-linked. Rockpocket (talk) 18:50, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Human" 

message: The sentence In France, legislation (principally the decree of October 19, 1987) contains linked dates. Following those links, nothing is mentioned regarding animal testing or legislation on the subject. I propose the removal of the links. Any objections? --Username132 (talk) 09:52, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  According to WP:CONTEXT, dates should be linked to allow date preferences to work. I see no reason to de-link this one. Rockpocket (talk) 19:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date(s) 

message: I propose that the articles on all countries have little or no significant relevance to animal testing and link to them add nothing to this article on animal testing. I suggest that they are all removed. Does anyone disagree with the removal of any or all such links? --Username132 (talk) 09:33, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem with delinking countries, but i would suggest the European Union be left as a link, as i think it has context in terms of standardising animal rights law and legislation across the Eurozone. Rockpocket (talk) 19:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Country Names 

message: With regard to this section:
:"In February 2005, while applying for a judicial review of laboratory practices in the United Kingdom, BUAV told the High Court in London that internal documents from the University of Cambridge's primate-testing labs showed that monkeys had had the tops of their heads sawn off to induce a stroke, and were then left alone after the procedure for 15 hours overnight, with their brains exposed and no veterinary care, because staff only worked from nine to five."
Do we have any independent evidence that BUAV actually claims the animals were left overnight with their brains exposed?  I also mentioned this question in Talk:Primate experimentation at Cambridge University, which strangely isn't linked to from this section--Coroebus 00:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Coroebus, I don't quite understand your question. Do we have evidence that the BUAV claimed this? Or do we have evidence independent of the BUAV that it was actually the case? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:15, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi again, now I understand what you mean. I've removed the reference to exposed brains until it's firmed up, and I've simply repeated what the Guardian said about it. Thank you for pointing it out. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Had a quick look through the report pdf and it doesn't look like they made the brains exposed allegation, suggesting the line is a misreading of the poorly worded Guardian article.--Coroebus 00:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  University of Cambridge 

message: the article doesn't make clear that there ARE important tests on animals, i mean sure there is lots of phd and commercial shit but there also are lots of useful things (medicines for exemple) that NEED to be tested in some live organism and than can be used to save humans, and ecoterrists who are against it do not offer themselves or their children to be tested, i.e. ruin progress on research on cure of diseases. this article is peta pov. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.163.166.27 (talk • contribs) 27 May 2006.
: "NEED" is a subjective term, in animal testing, and thus we cannot make a case for it in an encyclopædia. Instead we say why some people believe they are important and why others disagree. Then you can make your own mind up. Rockpocket -talk- 01:19, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  important tests 

message: The article has the following paragraph:
"Most of the NHPs used are baboons, macaques, marmosets, and chimpanzees. The use of great apes, also known as Hominidae — humans, gorillas, chimpanzees, and orangutans — is prohibited in Britain, but chimpanzees are still used in the U.S., with an estimated 1,300 in use at any given time, according to the Humane Society of the United States."
Aren't humans used to test new drugs after they have been shown to be safe in other species? This implies that they are not. Gary 18:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: NHP means non-human primate, and the entire article deals with involuntary testing in non human animals. However, the definition of Hominidae placed there does make make it somewhat ambiguous. There is another problem here. The use of non human apes is not actually prohibited by law in the UK, it is just that Home Office policy is not to grant licenses at this time. I'll try and reword. Rockpocket 19:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of great apes, including humans, in Britain 

message: I just realized that we say little or nothing about this, so I've added one sentence to the intro — "Most laboratory animals are purpose bred, while a smaller number are caught in the wild or supplied by pounds." ("Use of Laboratory Animals in Biomedical and Behavioral Research", Institute for Laboratory Animal Research, The National Academies Press, 1988) — and then perhaps at some point we could have a brief section on what the main sources of animals are around the world. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I never, you can use animals from pounds in research in the US.  How very odd. --Coroebus 16:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Where the animals come from

message: In the last twelve hours, a user posted to this page giving personal information about another user.  I have absolutely no idea whether or not that personal information is accurate, but that's not really relevant. WP:STALK says:
:Posting another person's personal information (legal name, home or workplace address, telephone number, email address, or other contact information, regardless of whether or not the information is actually correct) is harassment. (Emphasis added by me.)
I deleted the page, and restored only the versions prior to the harassing posts.  I then manually reinserted everything that had been added since (including the bad posts, but with the personal information removed).  Unfortunately, since there had been several posts made since the personal information was posted, the diffs for 21 edits are now gone, and the diff for my edit makes it look as if I was the editor who made the posts that really came from ForUsByUs, Rockpocket, and SlimVirgin. 
I would like to take this opportunity to remind people that posting personal details (real name, address, etc., whether accurate or based on wild guesses) about other editors is not "gently discouraged".  It is absolutely forbidden under all circumstances, except where such editors voluntarily provide such information themselves, for example through their userpage. Editors who violate this are likely to be blocked, unless they can show that it was an innocent error and can provide assurance that it will never happen again. Posting of personal information includes not only direct references to other editors' real (or supposedly real) names and addresses, but also links to websites that provide such information. AnnH ♫ 13:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation of missing diffs 

message: I would like to add a section on the business side of animal testing, because I think many readers may not realize that it's an industry like any other. I'd like to find something about the types of animals sold, by and to whom, equipment, and so on. I wouldn't make it long and I'll write it in as NPOV a tone as possible. Does anyone object in principle? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean the discussing farms like Darley Oaks that provide animals for research? Or discussing companies like HLS or Quintiles that do contract toxicology and efficacy testing? I think that is fine to mention both. I'm less keen on a discussion about the economics of animal testing (i.e. that the whole point of testing is to make money?). While that is true with regards to the contract companies, the argument along those lines against research and pharmaceutical companies is on shaky POV ground. Rockpocket 01:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what I'd include, but yes to including the breeders, and the people who make equipment, import animals, and so on. It depends what the sources focus on. I know that various government have at times discussed the loss of jobs if animal-testing facilities close and move elsewhere. The point of the section would be to describe that industry: the industry the governments appear not to want to lose. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you may have some trouble finding good sources though, for obvious reasons. --Coroebus 07:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sure, SV. Then by all means give it a go. Rockpocket 08:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, thanks, I'll give it a try. It won't be within the next few days though, but I just wanted to check in advance that there were no objections in principle. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Industry

message: Nrets, I see you removed the attribution from the sentence about Nobel Prizes. I'd like to ask that you return it. You can attribute the statement to anyone you like, but it needs to be attributed, because it's a bad argument. As it's written, it's not in the form of an argument, but because it's been added in support of animal testing, there's a hidden implication "animals were used in these research projects" (hidden implication: "and necessary so").
It is like adding to the introduction of Slavery that "X number of major agricultural and commercial advances were made using slaves in America". All editors would regard this as a statement that needed unpacking and attributing, because on its face, it is ambiguous, as well as potentially offensive and stupid, though it may indeed be true. It may also be true that slavery built up the economy in ways that could not have been achieved without it, but that would need to be made explicit with very good sources, good arguments, and good evidence. To simply stick that one sentence in the intro with no unpacking, no argument, and no attribution would make Wikipedia look unintelligent.
I'm saying this regardless of POV. That we're trumpeting the Nobel Prize sentence in our intro makes us look bad, and therefore we can't have Wikipedia saying it. Who you attribute it to is up to you. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are three references that state the same thing, would you like me to list them all as part of the sentence? I've changed the sentence to reflect this. Nrets 21:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You could choose your best source, saying "According to ..." or "X writes that ..." SlimVirgin (talk) 21:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Or even in some form of 'it is often argued that...' followed by references (or is that too weasel wordy?) --Coroebus 17:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That would work too, although better still would be to attribute the statement to a source in the sentence, in my view. SlimVirgin (talk) 14:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nobel Prize argument

message: Hello, anonymous animal researcher here. I wanted to clarify this bit on vivisection in the history section. It currently reads
-----------
Although the term "vivisection" literally means the "cutting up" of a living animal, and originally referred only to experiments that involved dissection of, or surgery on, live animals, it is now commonly used to describe any experiment, and particularly any painful experiment, on a living animal, [18] [19] which is also known as in vivo testing. [20]
-----------
I propose the term be references to its own WIKI page, and the connotation that it is a term specifically used to criticize animal research be added. 
------------
The term "vivisection" literally means the "cutting up" of a living animal. Animal rights [18][20] groups have increased its prevalence in the past two decades by using it exclusively to refer to experimentation on living animals. Researchers and testers instead have long used the term in vivo testing to refer to this class of experiments, because it makes clear that the testing is done on living animals, and that the testing is conducted with purpose.  
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As an aside, I just read the British Union for the Abolition of Vivisection's  vivisection FAQ, and I was astonished at what a large fraction of the Wikipedia animal testing page was taken verbatim from this obvious animal rights advocacy literature. talk about POV, check it out...
http://www.buav.org/faqs.html#faq1
EVERYTHING from the BUAV source should be considered carefully-selected to oppose animal testing. 
158.93.12.41 13:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History