Talk:National Capital Region (Canada)

message: There are some significant errors.  In fact, the NCR is not an unofficial designation...it only came into use, I believe, because of the federal government's use of the term, which is currently defined in the National Capital Act in extremely precise terms.  It does not correspond to the Census Metropolitan Area.  I was attempting to work it in to the article, but it required more work than I have time for this morning.  (I couldn't just drop it in, without leaving the article contradicting itself.) I meant to put the paragraph I was working on here, but in the process of gathering links, etc., I managed to lose it from both my web browser and the clipboard. - Cafemusique 13:20, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the CMA info because of the way many of the American agglomeration pages are set up, not to mention a few Canadian ones as well: (Namely a general term for an urban area given to be the informal name of the CMA) Earl Andrew 03:27, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: *I removed the location grid because it was inaccurate (for example, New York state is not adjacent to the southern boundary of the NCR).  If I have time, I will insert the correct information, and add the grid back to the article.  --Skeezix1000 12:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Location grid

message: *This comment didn't seem right to me - what about Lloydminster, which straddles AB/SK border?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.187.67 (talk) 07:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Lloydminster isn't a metropolitan area. The definition of a metropolitan area requires a minimum population of 100,000 people; Lloydminster just barely has about a quarter of that. Bearcat (talk) 02:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Only metropolitan region spanning provincial border?

message: I find this term is not neutral, as the term is rather vague, and means something different to different people. Many who grew up in Ottawa pre-amalgamation (such as myself, as I have lived in Ottawa all 26 years of my life) consider Ottawa's west end to be very different than someone who has lived here only post amalgamation.  I think using "Kanata" is the best way of going about identifying where Scotiabank Place is. Sure, Kanata is no longer a municipality, but it's not like it has disappeared from the map. Everyone still refers to the area as Kanata, not "West Ottawa" or the "west end". -- Earl Andrew - talk 12:00, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I lived in pre-amalgamation Ottawa for 20 years (Alta Vista, Westboro and Kanata), and routinely used "west end" to refer to Kanata, and my family still uses it to refer to Kanata.  However, I agree with you, Earl, that it is vague and its use is often dependent on context (in a conversation I could just as easily be referring to Westboro, depending on what I was talking about).  I agree with the compromise that you put forward, whereby we refer to Scotiabank Place being in the western suburb of Kanata, or in the community of Kanata in Ottawa's west-end, or something to that effect.  I believe that should address both your concern, as well as UrbanNerd's, and should be clear to the reader. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 12:31, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I just want to make it clear, that I do not deny people refer to Kanata as being in the west end, but the problem is it's an ambiguous term in post amalgamation Ottawa. For example, Kanata is nowhere near the neighbourhood of Ottawa West or the "Ottawa West" (read: Non-Nepean) part of the riding of Ottawa West-Nepean. -- Earl Andrew - talk 13:14, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it's ambiguous.  But disagree it had a lot to do with amalgamation.  People were referring to Kanata as the city's west end when I was a kid (even before there was such thing as Kanata, and before I even lived there).  And I am not sure people used West Ottawa and West end interchangeably.  I am not sure there are clear rules of usage, which underlines the point that usage is unclear and that your compromise is a good one. Skeezix1000 (talk) 14:36, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The West End lies west of Downtown, but east of Kanata....Got to remember that for decades  Ottawa was divided up by east - west - south  all inside the Greenbelt. For the younger generation the Greenbelt is no longer the main boundary and they may refer the Kanata - Stitsville - Carp as the west end of the city. But historically the west end is inside the greenbelt. Just like how North Gloucester (Beacon hill - Blackburn hamlet) is the est end not the other side of the greenbelt like Orleans. When i was very young -  Vanier, Rockcliffe Park and New Edinburgh was the west end...as the other more east were in  different cites.Moxy (talk) 14:59, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "But historically the west end is inside the greenbelt" - maybe before Kanata was built, but otherwise I don't think anyone can say this conclusively.  Frankly my recollection is quite different. I think all this does is emphasize the point that the term is vague, and has been used differently by different people in different contexts - which is basically Earl's original point.Skeezix1000 (talk) 15:39, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct Kanata is very very very modern - There was no urban development before the mid 1960s in Kanata - was not till 1978 that it became a city. So to say historically is  accurate as Kanata was just farm land till the late 21st century.  ....  All that said I agree today the term is more obscured. Just need to say this.Moxy (talk) 17:15, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is very interesting that a fairly innocuous issue, the usage of the term "west end", has generated so many comments. People feel strongly about these things. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 18:27, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

text: I've never heard anyone refer to ottawa's "west end" as west of downtown, but east of Kanata. Anything in the urban area west of downtown is the "west end", even Stittsville. UrbanNerd (talk) 17:22, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a matter of age I guess - for us older timers it was the norm to say to the west of downtown was west Ottawa (Old Ottawa West) - List of neighbourhoods in Ottawa#West end . This is not a big deal just need to explain that as the city grew so did the meaning of the west end - As sourced above.Moxy (talk) 17:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't disagree, UrbanNerd. But why is the compromise language that Earl inserted a problem? Skeezix1000 (talk) 18:27, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: If no one objects, I will revert to my last edit after 24 hours of discussion have passed. I think we have reached a consensus, and UrbanNerd hasn't provided any reason why my compromise is a problem, only that he happens to have never heard anyone refer to Ottawa West, Westboro, etc as the "west end". (not sure how long he's even lived in Ottawa???)  -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:43, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

text: No objection.Skeezix1000 (talk) 21:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: So because you're old and not with the times we use your out-of-date terms ? Awesome. Great editing guys. UrbanNerd (talk) 02:53, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: UrbanNerd, why do you feel the need to be so uncivil?  It's baffling. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:11, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

text: Well if you want to go personal with this, then I must ask, I see from your profile that you're a resident of many different cities, so how well can you even know Ottawa? How long have you lived here? If it's only since amalgamation, then you can only have a post-amalgamation mindset, which is only the experience of a minority of Ottawans. And for the record, I'm 26, so it's strange that you would say I am "old and not with the times". -- Earl Andrew - talk 12:22, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: For starters I was responding to Moxy calling himself an "old-timer". Secondly I've lived in Ottawa for many years and I can assure you I know much more about the city, it's demographics, neighbourhoods, history, etc. than most, including most of you. I think the original research on what constitutes what on here is shameful and very non-encyclopaedic. UrbanNerd (talk) 15:16, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: UrbanNerd, please knock it off with the insults.  You haven't come forward with any reliable sources that show that the term definitively encompasses Kanata in all usage.  You're just looking at a map and coming up with your conclusions.  Someone could easily do the same thing and say that the west-end is only everything west of the urban core - i.e. West Carleton and Goulbourn. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:11, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

text: Your opinion on this topic is just as much original research as our view. Except our view admits that there are many differing opinions as to what equates the west end, which isn't really original research, in that it is backed up with references (as provided by Moxy, for example). Your view that the west end (what I call the west end) is apparently never called the west end is actually what is original research, because it is an opinion, and an incorrect one at that. I still have no idea how long you have lived in Ottawa, but it musn't have been very long, if you have never heard the west end being referred to as such. Again, it must be a post-amalgamation mindset (again, you are not denying my assumption that you did not live hear prior to amalgamation). I find that if you think that the west end is never referred to as such, it is highly unlikely that you know "much more" about the city, it's demographics, etc than ANY of us, or at least me, a person who again has lived here his entire life, and has spent much of that time immersed in the city's demographics, neighbourhoods and history, etc. Obviously your view that the west end is not called as such is incorrect, because not only myself, but 2 other users are familiar with it being used, but you apparently are the only one who disagrees. And I would certainly think an "old-timer" would know more about local colloquialisms than someone with a post-amalgamation mindset such as yourself. I wish that you would just resign to the fact that you could possibly be wrong about this instead of resorting to personal attacks. -- Earl Andrew - talk 15:43, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I can assure you pal that I have lived in Ottawa for MANY years. How many is completely non of your business, but it is more than your 26 years on this earth. I also have studied the city formally for years. So I can assure you I do in fact know this city better than most, including you. So your opinion of me is irrelevant and i could really care less. Your out of date "inner-greenbelt" mentality at looking at the city as if it was 1988 and you were 65 years old is laughable. The city is living and constantly changing, sticking with one definition from 25+ years ago is foolish. You changed the long-standing to YOUR original research. It wasn't "my" original research as your claim. Either way, this is a very minor edit, and not that important. UrbanNerd (talk) 16:30, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: UrbanNerd, please do not assume that you know topics better that anyone else.  I have respect for your as an editor, but it's hard to take you seriously when you take that tone. Unless UrbanNerd can provide reliable sources showing that the use of the term always encompasses Kanata, I think there is consensus that the compromise language is acceptable. Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:11, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  What an interesting way to argue a point: "I know more that you, therefore I am right". Well, your argument seem to suggest the contrary, UrbanNerd. But anyways, I think it would be wise for you to be more civil on Wikipedia, and not go crazy every time you don't get your way. I was like that when I was a teenager editing Wikipedia, but I would expect more from someone claiming to be older than me. -- Earl Andrew - talk 13:32, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Interestingly, I note that there were two articles in the Ottawa Citizen this past weekend (Western LRT route changes good news, but parkland worries remain in west end and Artist stands on guard for Ottawa’s West End), both of which refer to areas other than Kanata as being the west end.  While I agree with UrbanNerd that Kanata has been referred to the west end for decades, I also agree that other areas have been, and continue to be, routinely referred to as the west end as well.  The term is vague and unclear, and we should be using the more precise compromise language. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:51, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "West End" 

message: An editor has undone my August 5, 2013 edits  to  National Capital Region (NCR) and Ottawa. I reverted one of the edits only for it to be promptly reverted by the same editor. Here are the editor’s three edit summaries:
*Removing User:Hwy43's own assumptions that the NCR is smaller in area then the Ottawa-Gatineau metro, added references which included government operated pages 
*Readded what User:Hwy43 removed.. his own assumptions is that the larger NCR population is fabrication... I added references including government operated pages 
*It doesn't matter what you wrote with your friend on the usertalk page the fact is the NCC itself estimates the population at 1,451,415 
First, the National Capital Commission (NCC) itself doesn’t estimate its population at 1,451,415. If so, a link needs to be provided verifying otherwise. Second, no reliably sourced reference has been found to verify the claim that the NCR is larger than the Ottawa-Gatineau CMA. The NCC confirms the NCR’s area is 4,715 km², which is less than the CMA's area of 5,716 km² in 2006 and its even larger area of 6,287 km² in 2011.  These are facts, not fabrication.  If the NCR is truly larger than the CMA, again, a link needs to be provided verifying otherwise.  
More importantly however, the editor has provided four references to verify the 1,451,415 population figure, stating they include government operated pages.
#http://www.ottawacityguide.ca/
#http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Ottawa.html
#http://www.ottawakiosk.com/population.html
#https://www.facebook.com/visitottawa/info
In response, none are in fact government operated pages.
#The first is actually a tourism/advertising website operated by ARCS Group Ltd.
#The second actually belongs to a Princeton grad student who states her pages are topically-augmented clones of Wikipedia. It is a WP:MIRROR, further confirmed by the following statement at the bottom of her Ottawa page: “The article content of this page came from Wikipedia and is governed by CC-BY-SA.”
#The third is actually an advertising site operated by Canadian Kiosk Online City Guides, self-touted as “Canada’s local guide for tourism, restaurants, hotels, business, events, sports, entertainment, coupons and more.” It is an advertising site.
#The fourth is a Facebook page belonging to Ottawa Tourism.  Ottawa Tourism is not government operated.
The content stating the NCR's population is 1,451,415 at each reference is mirrored or forked content, in whole or in part, from past versions of the Ottawa and/or NCR articles.  For example, the first three paragraphs at the third page is a precise copy and paste of the Ottawa article’s first three paragraphs as they stood between May 3, 2009 and May 24, 2009.
In conclusion, all four referenced pages fail WP:CANSTYLE#Population. Further, all four fail WP:RS per WP:MAF#Things you need to know, which states Copies of Wikipedia are not reliable sources. Bottomw line, Wikipedia cannot rely on its own mirrored/forked content to verify an unreferenced population figure in one of its articles.
I am again removing the population figure of 1,451,415 from both articles. It can be readded only if and when a reference is located that meets the following from WP:CANSTYLE#Population: 
*"Per WP:RS and WP:V, all population figures must be referenced"; and
*"Between censuses, properly sourced intercensal population updates from a government source such as Statistics Canada, a provincial statistical agency or a formal municipal census such as those in Alberta, may be provided in addition to the 2011 census data".
Hwy43 (talk) 05:44, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  NCR population of 1,451,415 

message: it would be useful to create a map of the NCR based on instructions contained in the National Capital Act (see text for link) 66.225.160.9 (talk) 14:15, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've gone ahead and created a map based on those instructions. DPenner1 (talk) 16:46, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good. Would you please add a legend directly in the map? That way we don't have to rely on an incomplete description of just one the features in the caption, or don't have to drill down to the map's description on Wikimedia.Also, how did you determine the striped area? Transferring the lengthy legal description from the Act onto a map is a very difficult and timely process without access to digital parcel mapping from two provinces for both sides of the river. If parcel mapping is available from the two provinces or the National Capital Region, that is awesome and I hope other government agencies follow suit by making parcel mapping open across the country. Cheers, Hwy43 (talk) 03:45, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Added a legend as you requested. I did actually determine the striped area by reading through the legal text and tracing it on maps. That wasn't actually too time consuming, the hardest part was finding appropriate maps with concessions and lots. I was finally able to find the Ontario maps at http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/countyatlas/searchmapframes.php, and the Quebec ones at http://www.gvhs.ca/research/maps/. But yes, it would be nice if governments made these easily available.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by DPenner1 (talk • contribs) 21:29, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  useful to create a map 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on National Capital Region (Canada). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20090114230120/http://octranspo.com:80/admin/Facts_Figures/Facts_ridership.htm to http://octranspo.com/admin/Facts_Figures/Facts_ridership.htm
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Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 18:31, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article should probably have just been a section in National Capital Commission, or even the other way around. Instead, it has become Ottawa, Jr. and Gatineau le Jeune...or perhaps a wannabe District of Columbia, Australian Capital Territory, etc. It is also very obviously being "stage managed" by the NCC itself, thus nonsense sections like "Attractions". Seriously, this is trash and would not fly except that Ottawa is a million-plus, one-road hick town. And I've lived here for 30+ years, so let's not pretend I'm stanning for some other locale. 2607:FEA8:BFA0:BD0:BD99:71A6:36BC:4662 (talk) 19:44, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dog's breakfast 

message: Apparently, there is no history before some thieves came here from Europe with rum, rifles and smallpox. Hmph. 2607:FEA8:BFA0:BD0:BD99:71A6:36BC:4662 (talk) 19:46, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: So I see Ottawa has a City Hall and Gatineau has a "hall": as well.  How many other areas within the region have local government separate and distinct from Ottawa/Gatineau? :-) CaribDigita (talk) 20:15, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  So how many Mayors / town-city halls?