Talk:Sectarianism

message: A sectarian conflict usually refers to conflict along religious and political lines such as the conflicts between between Shia and Sunni Muslims, or between Catholics and Protestants in Ulster or western Scotland. A sectarian conflict may also refer to general philosophical or political conflict between different schools of thought.
I have never once heard the term "sectarian conflict" used for anything other than a war, certainly not attributed to the situation in Scotland or the general differences between Shia and Sunni. This is completely POV. In addition, unless evidence can be provided, I am not aware of any conflict along "political lines" between Catholics and Protestants in western Scotland. 82.13.187.66 18:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello! Welcome to the discussion. (Why don't you log in or make a user-name for yourself? 'Tis free and easy.) I think you're right; perhaps "sectarian rivalry" would have been a better phrase. However, there are instances where Shias and Sunnis do violently clash, for example in Pakistan and Iraq (though I believe neither of those conflicts is wholly or even primarily sectarian); elsewhere Shias may be persecuted or harassed by Sunnis, as in Saudi Arabia or in Afghanistan under the Taliban (these would be instances of state violence, if you like). QuartierLatin 1968 22:55, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, and I'm starting to wonder what the point is of having articles on such broad, nebulous topics. Wiktionary would be more appropriate... There may still be hope here though. Compare border and etymology, which is also manage to be useful in spite of being articles on nothing specific. QuartierLatin1968  23:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sectarian conflict 

message: From Sect: "A sect is in a non-Indian context generally a small religious or political group."
The sectarianism article lists, among others,  protestant/catholic, chritian/muslim conflicts... Not exactly small groups.
Sect and Sectarianism obviously have the same etymological root, but really deal with quite different topics. They should best stay separate. Caoilte
:taking the merge tags down to reflect the lack of support for a merge. --Guinnog 10:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed Merger

message: I see there's now a proposal to merge this article with sectarian violence. I'm neutral for now. Sectarianism includes discrimination and prejudice as well as outright violence, so it's not wholly the same... on the other hand, the fewer articles about abstractions the better, most likely, so instead we can jump right in and link to articles about real things (i.e. instead of having a structure where we siphon off into sections like , we instead merge everything and then point to ). Maybe I've talked myself into a weak support. QuartierLatin1968  22:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Another proposed merger

message: Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes.  Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to).  The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. --Guinnog 20:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I think this article may rely to heavily on examples of religious sectarianism

message: I linked to this page from another Wiki article (Guy Fawkes Night) which linked the word 'sectarian' to sectarianism.  To merge would be a bad idea.  The definition of sectarian is '... a characteristic of a sect, a religious group adhering to a distinctive doctrine...'.  Not all sectarian groups have violent characteristics, and some are specifically NON-violent.  Mfields1 12:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with that - sectarian religious groups can have nothing to do with violence. I also disagree it's usually a pejorative - at least it doesn't seem to be used that why in an academic article I was reading. Perhaps it's a slang pejorative - to US liberals for example? 04:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merging with sectarian violence is a bad idea

message: From the very first line this article assumes that the reader already knows what Sectarianism is. 
The first line tells me: 
The ideological underpinnings of attitudes and behaviors labeled as sectarian are extraordinarily varied.
 
Perhaps I can reverse-engineer from this that sectarianism is anything "labeled" as sectarian, but even if that's true, it seems to have fallen into a Fallacy of definition (in particular Defining with a synonym).
Not having the article-subject defined in the header (or anywhere else) is probably against guidelines (E.g. First Sentence Style & WP:NOT which says: "An article should usually begin with a clear description that summarizes the subject as described in the rest of the article"). All the good articles I've read on Wikipedia do take this approach of firstly introducing & defining the subject. I suggest that this article does the same. 
On a practical level, the article isn't very useful to me, as I'm genuinely unsure of the implications in this word(having been given a variety of definitions from mostly meaning 'intransigent' to mostly meaning 'emphasising petty differences'). Wiktionary:Sectarianism defines the word as:
Rigid adherence to a particular sect, party or denomination
If 'sectarianism' doesn't have any special characteristics beyond that, I think it should be included in the first paragraph (so that everyone knows what the article is about). I also realize that defining the precise meaning of this term is very difficult, but I don't think that's a reason not to try.
Wragge 14:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Quoting..."In places where more 'moderate' forms (such as Anglicanism / Episcopalianism) prevail, the two traditions do not become polarized against each other, and usually co-exist peacefully. However, in western Scotland, where many people have some Irish ancestry, sectarianism can frequently be found between Catholics and Protestants".  I'd like to change this a little if I may, as it suggests that the root cause of the problem is that many people in W Scotland have some Irish ancestry (although I doubt that is what the original author meant to say!).  I come from NW England, where there is also quite a cluster of people of Irish ancestry, but I can honestly say that (despite being of obvious Irish ancestry AND being raised RC as a child) I have never in my 50 years encountered any form of sectarianism from the (largely Anglican) majority there.  I have no idea which religion my neighbours are, and I can't remember ever being asked.  If nobody objects, I'll amend it to "In places where more 'moderate' forms of Protestantism (such as Anglicanism / Episcopalianism) prevail, the two traditions do not become polarized against each other, and usually co-exist peacefully. Especially in England, sectarianism is nowadays almost unheard of.  However in Western Scotland (where Calvinism and Presbyterianism are the norm) sectarian divisions can still frequently be found between Catholics and Protestants." I'll hold-off for a bit for comments before changing anything. ChrisRed (talk) 13:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As to 'What is Sectarianism' I would suggest that the word 'Sectarian' is one of a number of 'prefixes' that you can put before other words such as 'Bigotry' / 'Discrimination' / 'Division' / 'Intolerance' / 'Hatred' etc. to indicate the motive for them.  You could take out 'Sectarian' and substitute 'Racial' / 'Inter-religious' / 'Sexual' / 'Class' etc as the prefix instead, and make up your own identikit hate list.  So, I would define 'Sectarianism' as "Bigotry, discrimination, intolerance or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between denominations within the same religion". Maybe a start, at least :-)  ChrisRed (talk) 14:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Going on the space allocated, it's starting to look as though Australia is the world epicentre of Protestant/Catholic sectarianism.  This can't really be true, can it?. ChrisRed (talk) 14:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: More "What is Sectarianism".  After thinking about it for a while, I think that I will amend my own definition of Sectarianism (as improved by 147.252.92.71...thanks) to: "Bigotry, Discrimination, Prejudice or Hatred arising from....".  The list previously included "Intolerance", which I now feel is redundant as it is practically synonymous with "Bigotry" - certainly the wiki page on 'Bigotry' says that.  So now it's "Bigotry" (i.e. = "Intolerance", "xxxxxphobia" etc); Discrimination (i.e. treating people differently because of their religious denomination/politics etc); Prejudice (i.e. thinking of/pre-judging people differently because of...) and Hatred.  I'll just change it, but if somebody with a better command of English disagrees, please feel free. ChrisRed (talk) 07:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think tyhe definition is quite bad. Definining sectarianism as bigotry and discrimination and hatred is a far cry from the way the term is used forexample with in sociology of religion. I don't believe the current definition is scientifically adequate or NPOV. Specifically sectarianism is mostly a phenomenon found in MINORITY groups and as such it can also be a reaction of a group to defend themselves against prejudice and bigotry in a larger, dominant society. ·Maunus·ƛ· 02:01, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can think of a better definition, then feel free.  I am only a layman - not an academic or any kind of expert.  I find your idea of Sectarianism being a phenomenon of minorities confusing.  I can think of one obvious example of the opposite - Iran's majority Muslim population's treatment of Bahais - and there must be many others. I am fortunate in living in an area (middle England) where sectarianism is practically extinct, so I will leave it to others with more experience ChrisRed (talk) 11:32, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is Sectarianism? 

message: Shouldn't it have it's own page like the ones for pakistan, the mid east, europe, etc? it sort goes on and on and doesn't seem right for this page.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.230.234.79 (talk) 05:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the section on Australian sectarianism forms an interesting 'case study'; in this case about how sectarianism can be transferred from (literally) one side of the world to the other.  Presumably there was no such thing in Australia before then (unless the Aborigines were prone to it within their own religion(s).  I believe that it is of value and should not be deleted, but agree that it should be moved to a more appropriate place (maybe a page called 'Sectarianism in Australia', with links from both this page and from one dealing with the darker side of the history and culture of Australia. ChrisRed (talk) 07:28, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Why so much info on Australia?

message: There should maybe be an aditional note on the concept of nonsectarianism. For a long time, Protestants refered to themselves as nonsectarian because they did not claim to belong to a Church, such as members of the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church do. This sectarian definition of nonsectarianism paradoxically led them to exclude Catholics and others from their own institutions, which were quintessentially WASP, and not very tolerant of cultural and sectarian distinctives. ADM (talk) 13:54, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Nonsectarianism

message: i thought sectarianism is only between denominations within religious traditions, therefore conflicts between religions (between hindus and muslims for example) should not be classified as sectarianism. Yiyun 02:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Acually, the article has four sources. --Dr.enh (talk) 01:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello...ChrisRed again.  I have returned to this article again after a long break on other projects.  (Quoting) "Sectarianism, (according to one definition), is bigotry, discrimination or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between subdivisions within a group, such as between different denominations of a religion or the factions  of a political movement".  Please note that this 'definition' was mine, and somebody else added the words "According to one definition" later.  I am really not in any position of authority to 'define' anything, it was just my own personal attempt to clean-up the rather messy description that was there before.  This is an encyclopedia after all, and I just relied on the true meaning of the word 'sect', to imply that 'sect'-arianism could only exist between sects - or 'shades' - of the same broad mindset.  So, sectarianism can only exist between Catholic Christians and Protestant Christians, Leninist Communists and Trotskyite Communists, moderate conservatives (small 'c') and hawkish Neo-Cons etc.  I just think that (for example) Christianity versus Islam is not 'sectarianism', because (although they have many similarities, i.e. both share almost-identical 'Old Testaments' and both hold Jesus of Nazareth in very high esteem) they are otherwise sufficiently different as to no longer be sects of the same religion.  Perhaps ones definition of sectarianism can be coloured by your own viewpoint and experience.  I was just trying to give a 'dictionary'-style definition.  I look forward to somebody else giving their wonderful 'definition', if only to reassure myself that my decision to pack-up Wiki-editing was the right one :-) 86.145.191.99 (talk) 23:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  definition 

message: Sectarianism is a man-made word used to communicate the simple fact that different religious groups do exist. Dsoconno (talk) 02:21, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Aren't all words "man-made"?  Skinsmoke (talk) 09:32, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summary 

message: To be blunt I don't like the section of Ireland. Anyone who has studied Irish History will know that most of the conflict stemmed form political differences, although religious differences did play a part.
Reading the article suggests that the entire conflict was simply between catholics vs protestants with the political causes being insignificant. That ignores people like Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmett, Charles Stewart Parnell, William Smith O'Brien, Jack White, Constance Gore Booth, Sean O'Casey, Sam Maguire and Sean MacStiofian who were all protestant and committed Republicans.
Exiledone (talk) 17:29, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sectarian divides can be politically motivated and are not exclusively religious. SeekerAfterTruth (talk) 04:01, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Ireland

message: This whole article is bogus. Like stated above, it assumes we already know what Sectarianism is. On top of that, you have Sectarianism that doesn't result in hatred, violence, or SEGREGATION. Sectarianism is not Segregation. If we care for our language and accuracy we best rewrite this entire article.
No one could possibly doubt that Sectarianism can bring conflict, but it itself is not conflict. A Society OFTEN has many SECTS within it. 
We can't have Wikipedia bullhorning Orwellian philosophy.
195.222.108.157 (talk) 05:21, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The definition itself: Sectarianism is not Segregation 

message: Hi all, I'm a student at Georgetown University and for a class we have to edit/expand/create a Wiki entry on a topic related to the Arab world. As such, I've decided to expand on the Lebanon section of this article by providing some historical background, information about the Lebanese political system, the Civil War, and recent events related to sectarian violence. Any comments/suggestions would be useful once I edit! Ls1030 (talk) 00:54, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done! We should probably fork most of it into a separate sectarianism in Lebanon article, however. Q·L·1968 ☿ 21:45, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

text: As I mentioned here, I worked on a separate article which is now live: Sectarianism in Lebanon. I incorporated the existing sections from this page into this new article, thus deleted the sections from this page and provided an overview that links to the main article. Ziribilla (talk) 14:15, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanding Lebanon section 

message: I was astonished to see that in Britain the use of "sectarian language" in some public places is a punishable offense. Using the religious jargon of a particular denomination or religious persuasion is a crime?? If a Catholic speaks of the sacrament of reconciliation, a Muslim mentions the sevenfold circumambulation of the Kaaba, a Jew mentions a bar mitzvah, a Lutheran mentions the ninety-five theses, a member of the Church of England wonders who will be the next archbishop of Canterbury, they can serve a term in prison for that?? Then I found this Wikipedia article, which begins as follows:
:: Sectarianism is a form of bigotry, discrimination, or hatred arising from attaching relations of inferiority and superiority to differences between subdivisions within a group. Common examples are denominations of a religion, ethnic identity, class, or region for citizens of a state and factions of a political movement.
I wonder if in a million years I'd ever have guessed that that's what anyone would mean by that word. Isn't this a regional usage, not generally known in the English-speaking world? I live in Minneapolis. The constitution of the state of Minnesota, where I live, forbids the use of taxpayer's money to support "sectarian schools". That simply means schools affiliated with a particular religious denomination. Shouldn't the title of an article on this topic be "bigotry" or something like that? Michael Hardy (talk) 03:57, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Everyone has ignored my comment above. Thus I have done this edit. Michael Hardy (talk) 14:22, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm... huh? "Sectarian" schools, in the sense of the Minnesota constitution, are those affiliated with a particular sect, not those that practise sectarianism. "Sectarianism", as widely used in US and international media, is just what the earlier definition said. Q·L·1968 ☿ 22:53, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

text: "Sectarian language" is, to some extent, a euphemism for "offensive insults based on the target's sect", which Britain treats similarly to verbal abuse based on racism, sexism, etc.  I think this page move requires further discussion.  At least, please complete the move by editing the 300 broken wikilinks that it leaves pointing to a disambiguation page, per WP:FIXDABLINKS. Certes (talk) 12:10, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Now moved back. That was a very bad page move.  Scolaire (talk) 17:33, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  regionalism 

message: The definition in the first sentence has been discussed previously and I also find it strange.  An IP editor recently changed it slightly but the result is also suboptimal.  My impression is that sectarianism is mostly about separation from other groups (i.e. the formation of splinter groups, denominations, etc) for doctrinal or ideological reasons.  A source I just checked mentions the importance of the belief that one's ideas are better than others as a cause and coalitionism as one of the results.  And another source attributing causes like fanatism as cause of sectarianism.  Starting with "Sectarianism is a form of bigotry..." may still be a bit bold and imprecise.  "Sectarianism can cause..." may be suitable elsewhere than as the first sentence (and digresses from what sectarianism is or what its causes are).  The sentence used to attribute bigotry as a reason for sectarianism, but now considers bigotry as a possible consequence of sectarianism, which is very different.  I have thus reverted it for now.  —PaleoNeonate – 21:14, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your changes and thoughts about this, PaleoNeonate. The article states that the meaning of sectarianism in this article is distinct from "sects" which is where the religious aspects are supposed to be discussed. Also agree with your comments about bigotry. I made some slight changes to that effect in the lead of the article.--FeralOink (talk) 11:20, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition (again) 

message: Hi Wikipedia editors, I am working on an assignment to attribute to a Wikipedia entry and think the sections on Iraq and Syria could use some expansion. This would be intended to imbed the existence of sectarianism in a more historical framework, focus on others outings of sectarianism apart from the Syrian and Iraqi civil war and perhaps outbalance the difference between the Lebanese section and other sections. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on elaborating on these entries and for those who have previously worked on this article, if they could tell me why the Iraqi and Syrian entries have not been elaborated before? Thanks a lot!Power&Resistance2020 (talk) 11:25, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iraq and Syria section  

message: Hi, I am a student of a Middle Eastern Studies programme. For a course assignment supported by Wiki Education I have to work on an article. The Yemen section contains only two sentences about Yemen's recent sectarian clashes. I have decided to elaborate on the history of sectarianism in Yemen.--S2149249 (talk) 12:15, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a very good idea. You are right, there is not much information about sectarianism in Yemen. History of sectarianism is a good point to start. I believe, the social dimension is also important to be added. Medo Lieden (talk) 18:13, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanding section Yemen 

message: I would like to use the following sources to improve the article. If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know!
Caldwell, Donald K. (2009). The Hegemony of sectarianism in Lebanon.
Makdisi, Ussama (2000). The Culture of Sectarianism: Community, History, and Violence in Nineteenth-Century Ottoman Lebanon. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Dina Rizk Khoury. (2002). The Culture of Sectarianism: Community, History, and Violence in Nineteenth-Century Ottoman Lebanon. The Journal of Interdisciplinary History, 33(1), 163-164.
Dodge, Toby. (2020). Introduction: Between Wataniyya and Ta'ifia; understanding the relationship between state‐based nationalism and sectarian identity in the Middle East. Nations and Nationalism, 26(1), 85-90.
Weiss, Max. In the Shadow of Sectarianism: Law, Shi’ism, and the Making of Modern Lebanon (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2010).
MLPQG (talk) 09:28, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bibliography 

message: All sectarianism is not religious in nature. The lead of the article correctly states this; however, the article classifies all forms of sectarianism under the header of religion, with content that is inconsistent with that heading. I am going to break out some of those non-religion related examples into the  their own sub-headings.--FeralOink (talk) 11:15, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I made some minor changes to the lead in accord with my comment above, and with this section of the talk page, Definition (again)--FeralOink (talk) 11:21, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article needs political sectarianism broken out from religious 

message: Hi! I am a student working on the topic of sectarianism and would like to propose some edits. These are aligned with the discussion on the talk page asking to contribute to making the article “more neutral”, with a less biased definition towards the religious aspect of the concept and "more substantive".
I think that the current definition is biased as it aligns with the traditional state-centric and political view that understands sectarianism as pre-existing fixed and incompatible communal structures in society, without acknowledging the social constructivist understanding of sectarianism as a set of daily practices that people strategically use and transcend to create their own political spaces. 
On that basis and to start with, I have edited the first sentence:
"Sectarianism is a debated concept. Some scholars and journalists understand it as pre-existing fixed communal categories in society, and use it to explain political, cultural, or religious conflicts between groups. Others conceive of sectarianism as a set of social practices where daily life is organised on the basis of communal norms and rules that individuals strategically use and transcend. This definition highlights the co-constitutive aspect of sectarianism and people’s agency, as opposed to understanding sectarianism as fixed and incomaptible boundaries people are bound by."
And the header to be more neutral:  
"This article is about sectarianism and its different conceptual interpretations” 
I deleted the below part, because it was biased and there were no references/sources: 
"is a political, cultural, or religious conflict between two groups. Prejudice, discrimination, exclusion, or hatred can arise in these conflicts, depending on the political status quo and if one group holds more power within the government. Often, not all members of these groups are engaged in the conflict. But as tensions rise, political solutions require the participation of more people from either side within the country or polity where the conflict is happening. Common examples of these divisions are denominations of a religion, ethnic identity, class, or region for citizens of a state and factions of a political movement." Curiouschanter (talk) 18:27, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Working towards a more substantive and neutral article