Talk:Three-finger salute (Serbian)

message: The croats did not use the v sign the used the hitler salute because they were with hitler during WW2. The bosnians used the v sign
i was told by a the mother of a serbian family that the three finger salute respresents a gesture remembering the days of when the serbian people were raided by the muslim nations and their children taken from them to be trained in the muslim armies and to be forced to return and fight against their own people so to prevent this their parents would cut of those particular three digits to prevent thenm from being forceably removed from then so the salute was a mark of defiance to show that they remembered those days and that they got to adulthood still having those three fingers.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.30.108 (talk) 19:07, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: There are indications and evidence that the three finger salute was used among Ustascha and Nazi soldiers. Please see the following links.  [forum.burek.co.yu/index.php/topic,201714.0.html ]
::Yes. However, those three fingers don't have much to do with Serbian nationalist 3 fingers. It's a coincidence — they look alike, but are not the same. --★čabrilo★ 06:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but that has nothing to do with the Nazis or the Ustasha, they were using the older central-european Schwurhand. 23.242.82.2 (talk) 11:04, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Three-finger originally

message: *"Nationalist" was mentioned 4 times in article, I believe that "Nationalist" standpoint is expressed clearly in current version.
*Removed the "4 Four S's" statement, what does it have to do with 3 fingers? How is this disputed?
*Also not sure why the Ustaše statement (unsourced) belongs in the "Three-finger salute (Serbian)" article. --Lowg 23:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup of article

message: Please take a look at discussion above. I provided several examples of what people think of what people think of 3 fingers. Also, many people, not Bosniak or Croatian, find three fingers rather provocative and chauvinist. So please, review my arguments above, and come up with sources that state that three fingers are anything but nationalist. --dcabrilo 16:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chauvinism 

message: The salute is a relatively recent invention , based on Orthodox way of crossing, with the three fingers instead of entire hand . (which is associated with the Christian Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) . 
::: You are requesting citation for this?  Is it not common knowledge? Adding:
::: "The salute is based on the Orthodox way of crossing, with the three fingers ::: instead of entire hand (which is associated with the Christian Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit)." source: Hajdinjak, Marko. (2000) Yugoslavia - Dismantled and Plundered http://www.ceu.hu/nation/theses/hajdinjak0001.pdf  --Lowg 20:25, July 9, 2006 (EST)
::::Great, so add it back in. - FrancisTyers · 07:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I beg to differ. Wasn't this first used/popularized in post March 9th demonstrations, when Vuk Drašković requested some three things be done by the government? Orthodox Christianity and three fingers seem like folk explanation to me, so I'd like some more sources, please, especially since this guy doesn't source the claim in his masters thesis. --dcabrilo 07:43, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're welcome to present better sources. - FrancisTyers · 08:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It might be as well, but the "holy Trinity" is a folk interpretation no matter what the real origin or intention was. The statement that the salute is relatively recent invention was removed as collateral damage, but it certainly is; it has never been used before 1990s TTBOMK. Your reference to March 9th looks plausible, but if you find a source, I'd be pleased. Duja 12:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I also fail to see why is citation needed. As Lowg pointed out, it is common knowledge. What kind of citation would you like? For example, on a recent Gay parade in Zagreb, a participant from Serbia was arrested by Croatian police for showing the salute, for the "provocation and disturbance of public order". Francis, I think you suffer from WP:POINTitis too much. Duja 07:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If its common knowledge there should be plenty of sources, some quotes: "If an article topic has no reputable, reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic." (WP:VERIFY), "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;" (WP:NPOV). - FrancisTyers · 07:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed pending citation

message: As I engaged in a sort of an edit war, I would like to try to pose some questions regarding this article and get community's input before I proceed.
* Introduction: We are currently "warring" between "Three fingers" being a "Serb" and a "Serb nationalist" salute. This salute is certainly not universally Serbian as it is used only by people of certain beliefs/ideology, as can be seen in sources that state what sort of incidents and reactions this salute uses. I don't think it is fair to say that it is a "Serb(ian) salute" - it can not be generalized in that way. In fact, I attended many meeting and street gatherings in Belgrade where opponents of the meeting raised three fingers in provocation and protest against it. So, not EVERYBODY uses it and not everybody finds it appropriate that it is ever used.
* Sources for origin section: We have four sources for this: 1) A B92 column. 2) An interview in Kurir. 3) A master thesis. 4) An ICTY anonymous witness. The 4) one is just a statement by an anonymous person, and we can't verify it. I wouldn't call it a source at all. The master thesis only mentions the salute, but proves in no way the origin or meaning of it. B92 column also only mentions it, but the author relies on memory of the event. Finally, the Kurir interview has insider information. While Kurir is not a reputable source, there are no claims that the interview is fake (and I checked if there were any).
* So, my questions are: how do we phrase the introductory sentence and which sources do we accept? --★čabrilo★ 14:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent "edit war" 

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Takovo.jpg

message: Is it possible to include the "Ctrl-Alt-Del" (or similiar) key combination in this article, as it is sometimes refered to as the Three-finger salute? The Snuffster (talk) 10:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Got a source? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ctrl-Alt-Del Reference 

message: Reference for this claim was given in informal talk with politician ("at basketball game with Dacic"). Dacic said:
"To je lansirao poglavnik Pavelić kad je izašao sa povijesnog susreta sa vođom Rajha Adolfom Hitlerom, on je pozdravio tada sa tri prsta. Ma, gluposti su to, ali..."
or translated to English
"Three fingered salute was launched by Pavelic, after historical meeting with A.H. when he saluted with three fingers. This is all stupid, but..."
I hardly see that this can be reference for mentioned claim. However, there is a photo of Pavelic's gesture , where you can see that it is similar gesture, but not the same. Further more, this has nothing to do with Serbian salute, and Serbian salute is what this article is about.
This would be the same like mentioning that Silvia Saint is also using this salute, like in this photo from Commons.
On the other hand, Pavelic is quite often mentioned as creator of this salute, although I saw no verifiable evidence of Serbian usage before 1990.
I think this claim should be modified like this: "There are photos of Pavelic showing similar gesture, but with different meaning from Serbian salute." --Irić Igor -- Ирић Игор  -- K♥S (talk) 21:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pavelic 

message: I deleted part of the article where was said that WW2 chetniks used tri prsta salute... This is nonsense !  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Damjanoviczarko (talk • contribs) 17:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  WW2 chetniks have not used tri prsta salute. this is nonsense 

message: Laz17 vandalized the page. Article must be reverted to pre-vandalized condition.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Damjanoviczarko (talk • contribs) 13:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What is wrong with my edits? You have a problem if there are TWO types of Serbian salutes, open fingers and closed fingers?! What is wrong with what I did? You yell, but indicate nothing as to what was wrong. http://www.facebook.com/s.php?q=istina+o+tri+prsta&init=q&sid=7f0e52c63f67f891fc2aa9716beb16a1#/group.php?sid=7f0e52c63f67f891fc2aa9716beb16a1&gid=36984273656&ref=search   
http://www.facebook.com/s.php?q=%D0%98%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0&init=q&sid=975f426f88b47f91bcb5a2934b68bf5e#/group.php?sid=975f426f88b47f91bcb5a2934b68bf5e&gid=9127277554&ref=search
18000 people in the second group. And you tell me that it is a lie that the three closed fingers are not serbian! (LAz17 (talk) 15:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Give as a source for closed 3-finger salute which has an origin in WW2. We only saw an image where a group of armed men, allegedly Chetniks, raise it in the air. All the sources so far show that the salute origins lie in 1990s. It is possible that some people used it before, because it's the way that Orthodox people make sign of the cross. The Facebook article you quote, even if not a reliable source, says the same thing as I do: it was invented by Drašković, and popularized in Krajinas in 1990s before it became the universal symbol of Serbdom. There are no earlier attestations: the photos from WWII and Jovanović's painting seem to be dug out just to prove that the salute is earlier than it is. No such user (talk) 13:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Laz17 vandal 

message: Removed:
"Salute is first represented on Paja Jovanović's painting Takovo Uprising. The picture represents folk Prince Miloš Obrenović, founder of the House of Obrenović pledging the oath in front of the people and saying the legendary words: Here I am and here you are: War to the Turks!. On the painting Miloš is saluting to Serbs with three fingers. . This act started the  Second Serbian Uprising against Ottomans."
The reference is about three fingers, but alas it does not even mention the painting. On the :File:Takovo.jpg, the Prince indeed greets the crowd with some fingers up, but it's indistinguishable how many and in which position. In any case, unless a serious source describes this painting as a source of the salute (which I doubt) will remain someone's original research. Until then, it should stay out. If anyone can reuse something from the interview, he's of course free. No such user (talk) 13:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In this interview (in Serbian, or autotranslated), Vuk Drašković mentions that Takovo painting inspired him for this greeting.--Irić Igor -- Ирић Игор  -- K♥S 22:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Incorporated in text now. Someone has changed the picture license in the meantime, so it's acceptable. No such user (talk) 09:05, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed: Takovo uprising 

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thread_title: File:Serbian Army withdrawal from Kosovo.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: I think it should be noted that a variety of Christian Orthodox peoples around the world use the three-finger salute as a religious and/or cultural symbol and that the concept of gesturing three fingers in some manner to represent the Christian Holy Trinity predates Serbia by hundreds of years at least.
One only needs to look at frescoes, murals, paintings and reliefs in some of the world's most historic Churches to see evidence of this.
In particular other Balkan Orthodox ethnic groups like Macedonians and Bulgarians, as well as Greeks, Russians and Ukrainians use this symbol in much the same way as Serbs do; i.e. an exclamation of their Orthodox faith and to a lesser degree, as a nationalistic "boast" or affirmation of their support for their country; particularly in situations were nationalistic tensions run high such as sporting events.
Serbs most probably do use the three-finger salute more than any other group and it most strongly identified with them, especially since the Yugoslav Wars, but it is found in a number of Orthodox countries other than Serbia.
Whether it spread to these countries because of exposure to Serbian culture/history I'm unsure (that could be the case) but nevertheless, Serbs don't have a monopoly on the three-finger salute.
It shouldn't be called "a Serbian symbol", but rather an Orthodox Christian symbol popularized in the modern era by Serbia, but having roots in early Eastern Orthodox Christianity.
Gamer112(Aus) (talk) 17:56, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  THIS ISN'T AN EXCLUSIVELY SERBIAN SYMBOL... 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: During the Croatian War, there were instances of massacred Serb civilians having had their three fingers on the right hand cut off. This information is from this source. (Станко Нишић (2004). Од Југославије до Србије. Књига-комерц. p. 162. ISBN 9788677120399. одсечена три прста десне руке). I can't get to the whole source but  what we have from google is that Radio London is mentioned here. Page 162, "Вршене су и масовне егзекуције, па је, на примјер, у Жарговићу пронађено девет убијених цивила старијих од 50 година, којима су претходно одсечена три прста десне руке. Радио Лондон не рече која су то три прста, али зна се". 
"Mass executions were also carried out, so, for example, nine killed civilians over the age of 50 were found in Žargović, who had previously had three fingers of their right hand cut off. Radio London did not say which three fingers it was, but it is known..". Radio London is mentioned here and this was common information from WWII. I searched possible crimes of the Croatian Army in the village of Zagrović, but I did not find such informations. Someone should check out this book to see what it’s all about, because it’s probably not about crimes in Croatian War. Mikola22 (talk) 17:22, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I must ask you for advice. I started discussion about two informations from two sources. First source speaks about "crimes of the Croatian Army in the village of Zagrović" and "cutting off three fingers from nine persons". This is very important information that I have never heard of, it is not mentioned by the Serb community in Croatia, nor has it been the subject of any trial. I did not find this information in any other RS. What should I do? I put this source on Reliable sources/Noticeboard Mikola22 (talk) 10:35, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:   Croatian War and  three fingers on the right hand cut off 

message: Please do not remove sourced material . That's not a good way to start with your editing again, I would say. cheers, Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 08:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if you saw my explanation? A Croatian Serb woman interviewed by war correspondent Misha Glenny had her three fingers shot off. What does this information have to do with Yugoslav War and the "Three fingers" article? We don’t know which three fingers she lost, when,  where etc, we don’t really know anything. This information( as it is presented) should not be part of the article because it doesn’t refer to the article at all, ultimately it is and OR. Mikola22 (talk) 11:50, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the source ie Misha Glenny book "The fall of Yugoslavia: the third Balkan war" here it is said that some person in the fight with the Croatian Army lost three fingers. What does this information have to do with Three-finger salute and this article? Therefore, everything is clear, this is not  information which belongs to the article.Mikola22 (talk) 19:44, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

text: Not yet confirmed. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 22:24, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing sourced material