Talk:Punk rock/Archive 3

message: I simply do not understand how skiffle can be seen as an influence on punk rock, other than the tenuous DIY aesthetic. In all the books I've read on punk, I can recall virtually no mention of skiffle. What's left out here is pub rock--bands like Eddie & the Hot Rods and Strummer's 101ers were contemporaneous with punk and had some of the same spirit; i.e., energy, passion, stripped-down rhythms, a desire to escape the pretensions of popular music, etc. The skiffle paragraph should really be replaced by a quick mention of pub rock. Right? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Willerror (talk • contribs) 13 Jan 2006.
: No comment either way on skiffle (other than that it seems like a stretch), but certainly in terms of the London punk scene pub rock should be mentioned. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pub rock is already included on the list of influences. But do we delete the sentences about skiffle? I think the analogy that the article proposes between skiffle and punk: lean times, diy, a "precident" more than an immediate influence, is reasonable.  But I agree that the connection isn't nearly as strong or obvious as the others listed, and if there's a consensus to cut the skiffle references, I'd have no objection.  Just don't throw out the line about the social disaffection of British punk that is currently part of the skiffle paragraph.  BTfromLA 05:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skiffle? 

message: Who would like to help in upgrading this article by including at least one reference to Canadian Punk (e.g. D.O.A., the Pointed Sticks, Nash the Slash, Dayglo Abortions, and many, many more). I can't believe no Canadian (or Canada-savvy) Wikipedian failed to add any information on this aspect of Punk! Pinkville 23:46, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Canadian Punk

message: Why is AFI mentioned in this article?  AFI has not contributed nearly as much to punk as most of these other bands have.  I believe the most AFI has done was have their lead singer mentioned in a song by Anti-Flag called "Davey Destroyed The Punk Scene".  The mention of AFI seems like a shameless plug for the band.  AFI formed in 1991 and the sentence in the article is discussing bands in the early to mid-90s at 924 Gilman Street and then goes on to state "and later bands including AFI".  AFI was around in 1991 and if they played at 924 Gilman later in their career that's fine, but why aren't all of the other bands who did the same thing mentioned as well?  In an article where the history and origins of punk are discussed it seems almost sacreligious to mention AFI and not discuss a single Canadian band like D.O.A., Dayglo Abortions, NomeansNo, or SNFU.  
Furthermore, why is Nirvana mentioned?  This is an article about PUNK and ITS origins.  Not about Nirvana and their roots.  The paragraph about Nirvana should be with Nirvana's article with a link to Punk.  I'm disappointed to read about Nirvana in a punk article, it almost seems like a slap in the face.  Nirvana and punk are two entirely seperate musical styles and cultures.  I fully support the deletion of the Nirvana paragraph.  
I also feel there sbould be more attention paid to the 90s skate punk movement.  Punk of the 90s was a large part of the whole generation X culture.  Many extreme sports changed the youth with commercials, video games, clothing, soft drinks, to the X Games, etc.  And what did many of these athletes listen to?  Punk.
There is also no mention of the Whiskey A Go-Go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisky_A_Go-Go) where many of the early punk bands played while travelling to the west coast, how is this possible? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Commondork (talk • contribs) 5 Feb 2006.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
AFI is so much more inportant then anti-flag, anti-flag are the new Good Charolette.
: One person's opinions:
:*I have no idea why AFI are mentioned. I would not have mentioned them. I agree with you that it is probably "a shameless plug". I would happily agree on removing them. Heck, I would probably not bother to vote to keep if someone proposed deleting the article about the band, though I confess that I've voted to keep articles on bands that are more obscure but that I care about. But no reason to mention here.
:*I'd be for mentions of D.O.A. and NomeansNo. No opinion on Dayglo Abortions or SNFU, I simply don't know enough about them to have an opinion.  
:*I think the mention of Nirvana is merited, because they were the first band out of a punk background to achieve top-level success in the U.S. No, they weren't a punk band by the time they were really big, but their roots were certainly in Seattle's punk scene.
:*I'd really rather see someone turn the skate punk article into something decent than have much here about skate punk. I'd love to get it to the point where we can have a paragraph or two here summarizing a "main" article elsewhere.
:*The Whiskey certainly should be mentioned. If you can work it in appropriately, do it. 
: Jmabel | Talk 06:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, AFI and Anti-flag are both the new good charlotte. They should however both be mentioned in section on post-1970's punk. The Ungovernable Force 10:30, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, according to the anti-flag FAQ, Davey Destroyed the Punk scene is NOT about Davey Hovok, but who knows if we can believe that. They also say on their that they're not anarchists even though one of their old songs was calling for "anarchy". Oh well, sell-outs I guess. The Ungovernable Force 10:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  AFI and Nirvana?  Come on.. 

message: There is way too much emphasis on Hardcore, that subgenre has its own article on here, which is even linked in the info box, this one needs pruning down to just punk rock. - Deathrocker 17:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hardcore

message: How come there is no mention at all of the Cleveland and Akron scene that was contemporary with the New York scene in the mid - late 70's? I found this astonishing, as it gave us Rocket from the Tombs/Pere Ubu and Devo. The influence of these bands along with the Electric Eels and to a lesser extent Dead Boys is recorded in Clinton Heylin's From the Velvets to the Voidoids and Jon Savage's England's Dreaming, so i've added a paragraph in and added a reference to Heylin's book, which is effectively an encyclopedia of the origins of US punk. If nothing else, Pere Ubu are a major band in influence if not in record sales, and their precendence into both punk and Post-Punk is also recorded in Simon Reynolds' Rip It Up and Start Again.Harveyspeed 00:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a PDF of a draft of a talk by David Thomas of Pere Ubu that may have some relevance to this. The Cleveland/Akron thing was very different; it has elements in common with what is usually called punk, but it's also very different. I'm not sure how we should handle it. - Jmabel | Talk 06:05, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleveland Scene 1974-78

message: All politics should be removed from this article. The Ramones, the band that many people believe founded punk, were not nihilists and not anti-establishment. (I know that has been previously stated, but I believe that further de-politicalization of this article is needed.) The previous passage had described "Beat On the Brat" and "Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue" as nihilistic songs. "Beat On the Brat" is about the common upper class citizens of Queens. "Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue" was inspired by the adolescence of Forest Hills who sought any type of cheap thrill to dull the boredom of the suburbs in which they lived. Neither of those song have any trace of nihilism in them. Johnny Ramone was a staunch conservative, too. (I know this has already been stated, as well.) This article is overly generalized.
If there is no significant arguement against it, I will do the following things: a.) Reduce the political generalization, such as the one in the opening sentence, claiming that punk rock is "an anti-establishment" musical movement. b.) I will let alone any political descriptions of individual bands.
:Maybe the political information could be moved to the Punk ideology article. Ecto 12:33, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the content from this section to the Conservative Punk article. Ecto 06:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Politics... 

message: Is there any reason that Bad Religion's Automatic Man is the only song mentioned as an example of punk songs against conformity? Surely we can find a 70s first-wave punk song instead. The article should focus on early punk, especially in such a context. --Switch 07:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bad Religion

message: BTW, Punk of the late 70s and punk rock are not the same musics... 81.246.210.149 17:50, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Punk and punk rock 

message: Anybody hear of the band Billy talent?Leader_trinity 20:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No quercus robur 00:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Billy talent? 

message: If we are going to go down that line what of the UK Peaceville label? I've no idea if they still exist (and am too lazy to search) but in the late 80s they were part of the Britcore scene (Electro Hippies; Doom; ENT etc) that was picked up by NME for one week - and then mercifully returned to obscurity. Perhaps that is why the label has slipped under the radar of what is now a global expose of what I considered a very private passion ;-)
:Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 08:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Peaceville became a fairly mainstream heavy metal label, some punk band like Doom even did an album or a single called Fuck Peaceville or somesuch... But yeah, Electro Hippies were a great band, wonder whatever became of them??? quercus robur 00:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Electro Hippies?

message: The Punk Rock bar mentions Deathrock as being a fusion genre. I belive it would be better described as a sub genre of punk. I know I may step on some people's toes here, but please let me make my case:
Item #1: If Deathrock is a fusion genre, a fusion of punk and what?
A)Gothic rock. Many people would claim that Deathrock is a punk-goth fusion. While deathrock may be popular amongst goths, and may bear a visual resemblence, I can personally hear no sonic similarity. If you want proof, carry out the following three way genre comparison. To represent Punk listen to Anarchy in the UK by the sex pistols and Last Caress by the Misfits. To represent goth listen to Bela Lugois's Dead by Bauhaus and A hundred years by the Cure. Now to represent deathrock listen to Spirtual Cramp by Christian Death and Partytime by 45 Grave. Based on this test, Which genre does deathrock belong to, punk or goth?
B) Post-punk. This theory holds more water. I must admit that many modern deathrock bands sound post-punk. However, this influence isn't prevelant through out the genre. Original deathrock (Chistian death, 45 grave, Voodoo church, Superhroines, Samhain)has no post-punk influence. Indead, not all modern deathrock has a post-punk influence (Antiworld, Deathrock EP/Songs for the dead era Bella Morte, Cancerslug, Bloody Dead and Sexy). And even if some later day deathrock has a post-punk, some later day Hardcore has a metal influence, but nobody would call it a fusion genre.
Item #2: Musical structure
Guitar: Deathrock uses the same simple three chord guitar sound a punk. The horror-movie style creepy guitar effects that occasionaly break up this structure aren't really any different from being punk guitar solos in slo-mo.
Bass: Punk bass is more prominante than, say, hard rock bass and deathrock sounds exactly the same.
Drums: Punk drums = Deathrock drums.
Keyboard: This is a differentiating point from most punk, but not all deathrock bands use one and celtic punk bands use all kinds of instruments.
Item #3: Comparison with other styles of punk
A) Alot of deathrock bands have played other styles of punk at some point in their careers. Here's a list: The Damned, T.S.O.L., Cancerslug, Rudimentary Peni, Samhain.
B) Some times Horror punk and deathrock are almost indistguishable. A good example would be Cancerslug (who also have a hardcore influence) or 45 grave. Think of Deathrock as old school punk to Horror Punks hardcore.
:It genuinely cheers up my day to learn that there is a band on this earth called Cancerslug! Wonder if they sound like Boyzone or Westlife by any chance??? quercus robur 00:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Have to admit, "Cancerslug" is a great name. Definitely better than "Anal Cunt", besides shock power. --Switch 07:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deathrock 

message: We need some links to Actual punk sites that are about proper punk music, the only ones provided were for subgenres; Hardcore, Ska, Skate, Emo, etc... they do not belong here, they belong on their own articles. - Deathrocker 13:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Links

message: The article about Gabba (band) (doing punk covers of ABBA in the style of the Ramones, and award-winner at a counterculture film festival) has been marked for deletion. You may want to vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gabba (band) -- 62.147.37.227 14:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: AFD closed, the result was Keep -- 62.147.112.7 10:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  AFD on Gabba, punk tribute band 

message: A user has been edit-warring for deleting this entry:
* Gabba (musician), a guitarist in the 1980s streetpunk band Chaos UK, now in the 2006 band ASBO Youth
(whose code also embedded a reference links to http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:iif1zfaheh6k~T1 for source and notability) from the disambiguation page Gabba, arguing that it's not notable enough to ever have a Wikipedia article, and thus to be listed as a redlink on a dab page. You can provide opinion and information (positive or negative) about it at the discussion page Talk:Gabba so as to help sort it out.
Thanks,
-- 62.147.112.36 14:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ha! For what its worth, it was a running joke in the Southend on Sea punk scene during the 80s that a woman who had previously lived in Bristol and was mates with Chaos UK always used to say, "You know Gabba from Chaos UK", and we'd say, "no", and she'd say, "Come on, you MUST know Gabba, everyone knows Gabba!!"... Maybe its her posting to wikipedia??? quercus robur 23:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  notability of Chaos UK and guitarist Gabba? 

message: Something odd I just noticed: there's no mention of New Wave in the article.  This is rather strange, since it was the most popular form of punk prior to the 1990s and it symbolized to some the commercialization of punk rock. WesleyDodds 03:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That really is strange. The article really is incomlpete without a mention of New Wave. I don't really know much about it outside of Elvis Costello and Blondie, unfortunately, but something has to be added. --Switch 07:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll try to add something pretty soon.  Although, i wonder if there was something about it in an earlier version but was taken out.  WesleyDodds 10:55, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Wave 

message: From the Sleeve notes to Suicide's eponymous debut (the 1996 re-issue):
Vega: "We did a gig, I think it was like early '71 at the OK Harris Gallery, and we called it, "A Punk Music Mass." It was on the flyers we sent out. Everyone likes to say the English discovered punk, or the Ramones were punk, or the Dolls were punk. But let me tell you something, before there were those bands, there were Suicide".
Assuming that 'early '71' predates the May '71 article, I think we have ourselves an earlier citation. Damiancorrigan 11:04, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More on the origins of the term 'punk'