Talk:Loyalist (American Revolution)

message: This article include a section that describe the Province of Québec of 1774 as Canada. This is historicaly not true. The british invader had renamed the french province of Canada into The Province of Quebec in the Quebec Act of 1774. 
Many of the english speaker who settle in Quebec after the invasion were american colonists who married french canadienne and spoke french. Like Moses Hazen (Brigadier under Lafayette at Yorktown) and Edward Antill.  The american revolution were underway since the british occupation of Boston in 1768. The Quebec Act of 1774 was a desperate attempt to give gifts to the priest and the Seigneur (landlord of the old regime) so the british could control the french population in Québec. It didn't work. The priest were ridiculed in church, the capitain of milicia refused to join Carleton. This is what some people wrongfully call neutrality. Carleton in quebec had to expelled the french from the city. Valentin Jautard would describe the american in Montreal as liberator. 
The milicia who helped the british were forced to do so under threat of loosing there land. After the defeat of the french milicia in Bennington the american will free those frenchman who were forced into the british royalist army. The british Burgoyne would later blame the quebeckers Luc de Lacorne for his defeat at saratoga in the british parlement. The british will not beleive Burgoyne. 
The iroquois will desert the Royalist army of Burgoyne in 1777, charles langlade will leave with them. This desertion of the iroquois from the british side greatly cause the british defeat of Saratoga. The iroquois were mad about the way the british were accusing them of the murder of McRae.
As many as 747 quebeckers actively helped the american army, in the first and second canadian regiment. The french milicia were disarmed by Carleton and Haldimand since the French entered the war in 1778 and the british did not trust that the french in quebec would not help the american. It is hightly unusual for a foreign army to dispand the milicia in times of war. But such was the state of the french in the american revolution. They had helped in great number in 1775 and they would have cause even more problem since the french had entered the war. Therefore the British disarmed them. The Province of Quebec was under martial law and under occupation by as many as 30 000 troops of british and germans mercenary. Carleton and Haldimand had to maintain those soldier under constant threat of an american invasion combined with the french. This will help the american maintain the british in quebec instead of planing another invasion of the North.
The Province of Quebec of 1774, also included the mississippi valley and many french from Montreal living there join the american army and will help Clark take Vincennes. Other Quebeckers joined the american navy namely Jacques Bedout, Louis-Philippe de Vaudreuil and Pierre Douville. The french milicia under spanish officer will fight against the british at St-Louis. 
As for the idea of the american republic, it was popular in Quebec, as it will be again in 1837 during the rebellion in Quebec where they will try to built the republic of LowerCanada. Still today a majority of french speaking people in Quebec voted to make Quebec a republic in 1995. 
The monarchy in Quebec is opposed by 80 % of the people.  
The article is clearly the point of view of Canadian Monarchist. (Etienne2010 (talk) 01:26, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Extremely bad section about a so-called Canada

message: I'm moving the section on Loyalists in the American Revolution here. But the history of the section is still visible on the page Loyalist. QuartierLatin1968 22:17, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: untitled

message: I'm increasingly beginning to wonder if we shouldn't merge this article with United Empire Loyalist. True, not all Loyalists emigrated, and not all those who did went to BNA, but I find it impossible to say much at UEL that wouldn't be equally relevant here. What do folks think? QuartierLatin1968  22:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the American perspective is essential for this article. The emphasis is on their experience 1775-83. The UEL will have a Canadian perspective with mopre postwar emphasis. Less than half (?) The Loyalists went to Canada (many stayed in USA). Rjensen 12:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The term UEL did not exist during or immediately after the American Revolution.  I think a logical split between the articles would be for the UEL article to contain the content relating to those Loyalists who ended up in Canada after 1783.  This split would involve moving pre-1783 content from UEL into this article and moving content relating to post 1783 Canadian Loyalists into the UEL article. BradMajors (talk) 09:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Only a few loyalist emigrated.  Remember that between a third and half of all Americans were loyalists - most stayed put after the revolution - if they weren't driven out by bloodthirsty rebels.JohnC (talk) 07:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge from UEL?

message: In general the British books are quite good. An exception is Hugh Bicheno, & Richard Holmes, Rebels and Redcoats: The American Revolutionary War - Bichenko wrote the book -(Holmes did an introduction), and his books range from 1570 to 1980. he is not a specialist in the Revolution. The book is actually the script of a BBC video, and is not scholarly.  The claim that the Loyalists had more soldiers than the Patriots is fantastic--no one thinks they had 10% as many. Doubtless Bicheno misread some source or another.  Naturally the reviewers do not recommend it: 
 "What an attack on the very foundation of America. Everyone I know that saw it was ashamed that PBS would air something like this. A one-sided account, which at one point actually portrays Americans as fanatics, comparing them to the Vietcong AND Hezbollah. The list of insults to America and Americans is long, and shameful."  Rjensen 13:09, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Kind of like the Mel Gibson fantasy "The Patriot" was an inuslt to British and Canadian sensibilities? TrulyTory 13:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: yes exactly like that. We should make sure that Wiki should rise above that, I hope. Rjensen 13:49, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Contrary to the above, the reviews of this book have actually been very good.  "I got a recommendation from a university Reader in American History (Associate Professor) for this book as "the best general history ... of a far higher standard than McCullough, but still lively and accessible to a general audience.""  BradMajors (talk) 00:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't know why you said that "The claim that the Loyalists had more soldiers than the Patriots is fantastic--no one thinks they had 10% as many."  What source do you have to support that claim?  Historian John Murrin, in a very well-regarded college textbook, actually says, "By 1780 the number of loyalists under arms exceeded the number of Continentals by almost two to one."  (See John M. Murrin, et. al. Liberty Equality Power: A History of the American People, Volume I: To 1877, third edition (Florence, Kentucky: Wadsworth-Thomson Learning, 1996, 2002), page 226.)  Now, obviously that comparision does not include Patriots in militia units, but certainly the number of loyalists who took up arms for the British cause exceeds 10% the number of Patiots who did.67.177.195.177 (talk) 04:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  anti-american books 

message: Hey Rjensen. I'm not sure why you wish to fight over a point like this, but fair enough, here's why the words "and Canadian" belong with the mention of a "British perspective". (1) Yes, there was such a thing as a Canadian perspective in 1775, which would have included (at a minimum) the perspective of the Canadiens or French-speaking population of the Laurentian valley, and also the perspective of the colonial administration of the Province of Quebec. Regarding the latter, both Guy Carleton and Frederick Haldimand served as governors of Quebec during the Revolutionary period, and in that and other capacities they provided important services to the settlement of United Empire Loyalists in Canada. See for example Christopher Moore (The Loyalists: pp 230-231 for Haldimand, p152 for Carleton (and elsewhere)). Now obviously Moore's book is not a specialized academic monograph, but I won't belabour the point unless you want to see more specialized and in-depth treatments on the Quebec administration during the Revolution. | Turning from the "official" Quebec position to those of the masses, practically any history of Quebec could assure you that public opinion in the St Lawrence – insofar as it can be known – at this time was generally ancien Régime and traditionalist, with a great deal of satisfaction at the arrangements for the province under the Quebec Act. Having generally transferred popular allegiance from the Crown of France to the Crown of Great Britain, the average Canadien would (I think it's fair to say) view the Revolution as treasonous or rebellious. The only history of Quebec in my own library that deals with the period is Marc Durand's Histoire du Québec, but I'm afraid I haven't got it with me at the moment; if you like I can see tomorrow what my university library can produce.
(2) It's also fairly clear that the sentence of the article in question deals (at least in part) with historical interpretation, not just with a snapshot of popular opinion in 1775. There certainly is a body of Canadian historiography concerning the American Revolution; and while it's admittedly simplistic to reduce that historiography to the notion "They were traitors", I think there does remain a strong current of criticism of the revolutionaries for (allegedly) being too violent or headstrong or imprudent, dogmatically imposing their ideas and loyalties upon their neighbours, and hypocritically posing as defenders of "liberty" enforced by a reign of terror. I wonder if our library has a detailed survey of Canadian historiography – I certainly don't, but I'd be interested in checking this one out if you want me to. QuartierLatin1968  01:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: for some reason this page has turned very contentious. I'm sorry about that and would like to calm things down. (I am an American who has an interest in Canadian history and give papers in Canada on comparative history of the two countries.) 
First, I certainly do not think that Royal generals and governors like Carleton in any way represented "Canadian" public opinion.  Surely they represented their government in London.  I used the standard book by Mason Wade to explain that the habitants were 1) mostly neutral and refused to fight for King; 2) of those who were active most seem to have supported the American invaders and even raised regiments; 3) a minority supported the King. (Whether group 2 is larger than group 3 is perhaps open--Wade clearly thinks 2 was larger.)  Wade also notes that maybe 3% of the population in Canada in 1775 was British, mostly officials and merchants. They were loyal to the King.  I assume that Canadian opinion = the 97% who were habitants.  Now it is true that most 19th and 20c Canadian historians take an anti-US, pro-Loyalist position, as you outlines it. Americans are too pushy, etc. That is NOT the same thing as saying the habitants of 1775 thought that way. Rjensen 01:32, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I'm all for calmness as well – forgive me if I sounded touchy earlier. I won't revert you anymore till we've reached an understanding. Just two points: (1) You're misunderstanding me if you thought I meant that Canadian colonial administration reflected popular opinion. It reflected official opinion – but it was still a "Canadian perspective": even a imperial administrator in Québec City has a different vantage point from one in London. Public opinion's a different issue; I've actually never encountered the view of Mason Wade that you mention, and I'd be interested to learn more about his arguments. (2) Why is public opinion in 1775 the only one that matters? As I say, I think that part of the intro is clearly presenting (in highly reductionist fashion, I admit) opposing perspectives of historical interpretation, not just or even primarily those of contemporaries; let alone those only of contemporaries at the beginning of the Revolution rather than at the end, the middle, the aftermath, or whatever. QuartierLatin1968  02:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The tenor of the article is "who was a Loyalist/patriot" -- what proportions of the people in various categories.  What I tried to do was add Canada (Quebec & Nova Scotia) to the mix. Yes the Royal governors and colonels were all loyal to the King, but what about everyone else?  That is why public opinion matters.  Guns matter too and that is why the Am Rev article is mostly about battles. (It gets more interesting when you look at London--at Amherst and Burke and Fox--there were plenty of leading Brits who partially favored the Yanks.) Rjensen 14:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: good points and I tried to tweak it to make the clear reference point 1775 not 2006. Rjensen 17:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Canadian perspective

message: In the second paragraph in the introduction, there is a mention of one Samuel Seabury returning to the US after the revolution, along with many other loyalists. Now, Seabury indeed did return, but I'm pretty confident that many loyalists did not. In fact, I'm sure most of the loyalists stayed. Also, in the previous sentence, there is a Seabury quote denouncing the Patriots. The positioning of this sentence after a quote denouncing the Patriots, and also its lack of references or facts, strikes me as POV. I'm going to edit it out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Outsidethewall (talk • contribs) on 18 March 2006.
::Seabury was a refugee in New York city during the war and returned to Connecticut in 1785 or so, points covered in his Wiki bio. Rjensen 21:57, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright. However, I'm going to edit out that "like many loyalists" thing - I would like to see some references... --Outsidethewall 21:59, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a matter of numbers. If 20% of the 2 million white colonists were Loyalists that's 400,000.  The number who left was under 100,000. Therefore most stayed.  See the Smith article for statistics. Rjensen 22:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Boatner's Encyclopedia of the American Revolution says about the same thing: of about 500,000 Loyalists in the 13 colonies, about 80,000 left. So about 5 out of 6 Loyalists never left. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 16:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have read that 80,000 left during the mass exodus before the surrender of New York alone. (Janice Potter, The Liberty We Seek: Loyalist Ideology in Colonial New York and Massachusetts, 1983.) There were others leaving throughout the war from other locales, so I think Boatner's number is too low. Joel Bastedo 00:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most historians put the total who left at about 80,000 (give or take 10%--record keeping was not good.) What source does Potter use to say 80k left through NYC alone? Rjensen 00:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Second Para. in Intro

message: most of all the great majority of Loyalists never left. Those who returned after 1783 were leaders. In general they were hated and resebted at first, but by 1790 most of the laws against them had been repealed and hostility faded away. For detailed coverage see Merrill Jensen; The New Nation: A History of the United States during the Confederation, 1781-1789 1950. Here's a recent article: Kermes, Stephanie.  "I Wish for Nothing More Ardent upon Earth, than to See My Friends and Country Again": the Return of Massachusetts Loyalists."   Historical Journal of Massachusetts 2002 30(1): 30-49. ISSN: 0276-8313  
Abstract: Although Loyalists were forced to leave Massachusetts during the American Revolution, taking refuge in Canada and England, virtually all expressed a desire to return to what they considered their native home. After the last wave of anti-Toryism passed in the wake of the peace treaty of 1783, a number of Loyalists, typically young, native born, and still emotionally attached to the area, made their way back to Massachusetts between 1784 and 1789. On reentering Massachusetts, they encountered, for the most part, a warm welcome from anti-Toryists and were able to integrate themselves into society, reclaiming property, collecting debts, and joining the conservative, Federalist political culture of the state. Documentation: Based on letters, diaries, other primary sources, and secondary sources; 46 notes. Rjensen 21:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Return of the Loyalists 

message: Intro: Historians estimate that about 5% of the white population may have been Loyalists (that is, about 100,000), but there are no exact numbers. "Loyalists in the 13 states" section: Historians estimate that about 15–20% of the population of the thirteen states was Loyalist (or roughly 500,000 people among 3 million residents)... Both are uncited. I don't know which is right, so I'm adding the contradict tag. Kwertii 20:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears that someone has changed the 15-20% figure to 33%, but 500,000 is not 33% of 3 million.... REggert (talk) 19:40, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it is best not to use a number at all since no poll was conducted and because large numbers of persons either did not care or would support whoever was in power. BradMajors (talk) 20:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Another inconsistency

message: I seem to recall that residents of occupied Boston and New York City were required by the British to sign loyalty oaths.  True?  Details?  --Wfaxon 00:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oaths? 

message: There's been a proposal to merge the Opposition to the American Revolutionary War page w/the Loyalist page, and as I can't find any existing discussion about it, I'll start a discussion here (since this is where the "Discuss" link on the tag leads).   I could certainly see merging (or out-and-out deleting) the existing stub.  However, I'm going to vote against the move for the time being - I think more material could be found for the article, not all of it about Loyalists.  I'll have a shot at doing that sometime within the next couple weeks. Candle-ends 18:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: the usual term is "Loyalist" and not "opponent of American revolution". The latter term misreads the situation: the Loyalists started out as loyal to the King and never changed positions. The patriots started out as loyal and switched. (and some people kept their heads down and did not declare one way or the other) Rjensen 23:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merging Opposition to Amer. Rev.

message: I've corrected an error that was introduced a couple of weeks ago.
"As Anglican clergyman Samuel Seabury wrote, the Revolutionary War was viewed as one of the most unnecessary wars in the history of America. ..." was changed to "An Anglican clergyman..." I've changed it back.
But the statement has more problems than that. It's obscure. It's not clear that Seabury and his view date from the Revolution (although his name is a hint and that's the only thing that makes sense by the time you get to the paragraph following).
It's not clear where the quote starts. There's a closing quote mark but no opening one. Is "he stated that" part of what Seabury wrote? If so who does 'he' refer to? If not then "he stated that" is our words but can't introduce a quote beginning with 'if'.
Our introduction, "...Seabury wrote", doesn't say that he viewed the war as unnecessary. It uses Seabury's statement, whatever it is, to support (without any citations) our statement that the war was viewed as unnecessary. We don't say who viewed it in that way and Seabury's quote 
doesn't make any such statement.
It's not even clear that we mean that contemporaries of the war regarded it that way. We could be attributing to citizens of the later US, to he British government at a later date or to historians.
Finally, the statement and quote, along with the two paragraphs following, seem to have been inserted with partisan intent and wouldn't fit well in the introduction even if they were well written. (The last of these paragraphs contains non sequiturs and vague pronouns whose referents are missing or unclear.
If anyone knows about Seabury and his statement and the view (of whoever) that the war was one of the most unnecessary, please fix what's there now. If noone can see how to fix it I'll just take it out. It's certainly not contributing anything to the introduction but the potential for confusion and misdirection. Klippa (talk) 07:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "Unnecessary wars"

message: This article has a huge POV. look at where it says loyalist were typically smarter then their counter-parts, and held the majrority, which obviously isnt true since we did revolt!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.200.173.251 (talk) 21:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I also see a lot of POV. The article is currently written in a very abrasive style that assumes some kind of massive competition between left wing and right wing. It's a typical goonish American narrative. Everybody who dissents with what's happening in the USA is tarred with a brush that they betray the values of the country. The Western part of Canada is largely a country formed by US dissidents. The first big wave were the "loyalists" who came over to escape from the Revolutionary War. What's wrong with emigrating from a war-torn country? How is that "being conservative?" How is it wrong to have a different set of values and want to make a life for yourself in a country which has a different frame of reference on the world? The USA itself proudly proclaims that it is a nation of disaffected British people. In like manner, the loyalists who went north to Canada have made western Canada what it is today. Rainbird (talk) 17:26, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: POV!!

message: Shouldn't the article also mention (maybe as "in popular culture" section) that science fiction writer S. M. Stirlilng based his Draka alternative universe on alternative fate of the Loyalists?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.213.41.2 (talk) 15:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[S. M. Stirling]]'s [[The Domination|Draka Series]]

message: I removed two paragraphs recently added to the lede that provided undue weight to a minority opinion no longer accepted by historians.  This opinion was already covered in the body of the article and supported by a footnote.  The footnote described the claim and provided two links that specifically refute it.  To provide balance, I have taken the two paragraphs I removed from the lede and moved them to an addition footnote. The source of these paragraphs is a web article and the author, Edward Larkin, is not an historian. His claim is NOT that the Adams estimate is accurate, but that it is the most famous -- such a claim is more appropriate for the body of the article than the lede.Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 18:00, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Larkin and Adams

message: The statement regarding the Pa Dutch being loyalist is sourced by a book written about Columbia and Richland Counties, South Carolina.  In this source (available online, pages 28-29), the author writes about a few hundred German Immigrants living along a river deep in the South Carolina midlands.  There is nothing mentioned about the Pennsylvania Dutch.  You can't take a statement regarding a few hundred German immigrants (at most, by the books account) in South Carolina and apply it to a much older immigrant community 1000 miles north in Pennsylvania.  I'd like to see a real source that says something about the Pennsylvania Dutch ... or see those sentences removed.  (I don't want to start editing if maybe the source used was just an honest mistake or typo or something).  There are some other historically dubious claims as well; but this example is likely just source manipulation in order to push a POV.  Thx  Gendylan35 (talk) 07:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've got some relatives who were Palatines,  moved to NY from PA, and they were definitely "patriots"  (fought at Saratoga, etc.) along with their "dutch" neighbors.  Most of the Germans from "Drums along the Mohawk" were real people.  Of course, this is only anecdotal. Peter Flass (talk) 18:46, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: In Pennsylvania & New York, Germans fought on both sides.  Tucker emphasizes that many "attempted to stay neutral, choosing not to take sides in the struggle."   Rjensen (talk) 19:45, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Pennsylvania Dutch (German Immigrants) Statement

message: Nova Scotia remained loyal.
::so did Newfoundland and Bahamas and Jamaica and several others. But they were never part of the 13. For example, Nova Scotia did not get responsible government until many years later in 1848. Rjensen (talk) 12:47, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But it got representative government, very much the same as that enjoyed by the thirteen colonies, in 1758. Responsible government is a separate term which applies mostly to British North America in the years after the revolution. Moximatic (talk) 13:57, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The so-called "13 Colonies" were in fact 14 

message: I have a problem with the rebels being referred to as "Patriots" throughout the article; I don't reckon that's what the British called them. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 15:51, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue is how do historians refer to them, and "Patriots" is a common term.  I count eight uses of "Patriot" and five uses of "rebel".  Seems like a reasonable balance and since the terms are virtually interchangeable, I can't see any purpose in making edits solely to change one term to the other. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 16:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is like Roundheads and Cavaliers, its the names of the factions 98.206.155.53 (talk) 03:58, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: At the time, the nation was Britain, just an extension of it. You cannot be "patriotic" by going against your nation. Civil War, the South was the Rebels, not the Patriots. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ (ᚷᛖᛋᛈᚱᛖᚳ) 08:23, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patriotism 

message: This artile is in the past tense, but there are still loyalists today.. Flosssock1 (talk) 01:14, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is in the past tense because the events in question happened over two centuries ago. MarmadukePercy (talk) 23:54, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not gonna happen Flossock1--Jojhutton (talk) 23:58, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You missed and 's' Jojhutton. And okay, but there seems to be a lack of information on the loyalists of today. Flosssock1 (talk) 11:07, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What planet do you live on?  The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 14:44, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Excuse me? What is your problem? Flosssock1 (talk) 19:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You are seriously suggesting that almost two and a half centuries on from the revolution, there are still American Loyalists who wish to return to British rule?  The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 22:33, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There are still loyalists. Obviously a return to British Rule would be far away, but I don't know their views on this. But I do know that they are American born and loyal to the British crown, and they call themselves loyalists. Flosssock1 (talk) 16:21, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to spout nonsense like that, set up your own website where you are free to post whatever you like.  Please do not inject this kind of rubbish into Wikipedia articles.  The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 00:29, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually it's called 'improving' an article.. Flosssock1 (talk) 18:02, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Modern loyalists are called "Canadians" and there are many articles about them. The "significant Loyalist groups or organizations" were military regiments and the (United Empire Loyalist of Canada. About  80% or so of the Loyalists  remained in the U.S. and renounced loyalty to King George III. Rjensen (talk) 13:18, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Past tense 

message: I added a "disputed" tag to the section claiming Nova Scotia had "powerful British forces" in 1775 (and probably most of 1776).  This needs citation; my understanding is that most of the British forces in 1775 were in Boston, and authorities in Nova Scotia were scrambling for support whenever there were rumors of organized Patriot aggression (like Benedict Arnold's trek to Quebec and the activities of Jonathan Eddy and John Allan).  Outside the interval between the withdrawal from Boston and the conquest of New York, I'm not sure the garrison in Halifax was all that large in 1776.  The Battle of Fort Cumberland was fought by forces that were little more than Loyalist militia supplemented by about 200 regulars sent in relief.
On an unrelated note, there is no specific mention of Quebec's use as a base of military operations often dependent on Loyalists that were projected onto the frontier areas of New York and further west.  There is also no mention here of the two Florida provinces (East and West) as refuges and bases for Loyalist activity during the war.  West Florida-based Loyalists (see e.g. Thomas Brown (loyalist)) in particular caused all sorts of problems for Georgia Patriots, even before the capture of Savannah in 1778. Magic♪piano 14:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: 1) Halifax was a Navy town, and the Navy was powerful enough. N.S. had a large powerful influx of Scots and other Brits just before 1775, and they strongly supported the Crown, says The Atlantic region to Confederation: a history  By Phillip Alfred Buckner, John G. Reid p 168 Rjensen (talk) 20:23, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I took the liberty of adding a bit more detail to what you put in. I'd still be interested in seeing what the actual strength of the Halifax station was, but your language was a good improvement. Magic♪piano 00:04, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I stirred a little religion into the Nova Scotia mix; when the Brits left Boston in March 1776 they moved several thousand combat troops from there to Halifax.Rjensen (talk) 05:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

text: It was not. Florida had been ceded in 1763 to Britain, who divided it into two provinces. West Florida (capital Pensacola) was a major centre of migration between the wars and was probably on a par with Georgia by the time the Revolutionary War broke out; East Florida (capital St. Augustine) received a significant number of Loyalist refugees from the southern colonies during the war. Conversations that go years between replies FTW! Binabik80 (talk) 17:02, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nova Scotia and Florida 

message: I love the "Psychology" section. It implies that the folks who did not want to be traitors or oath breakers need to be psychoanalyzed. I note that there is no analogous section in the Patriot (American Revolution) article. (Well, there sort of is, but not really. Check it out; it's a hoot.) I don't see much in the section that is salvageable; I recommend that it be deleted whole. Rwflammang (talk) 21:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: historians have been very serious about the psychology issue for over 60 years and numerous leading scholars have explored the topic. The section is designed to summarize the large scholarly literature. "traitors" and "oath breakers" are pretty heavy POV that suggest Rwflammang is not trying to be neutral. For the historian the question is how people were embedded in and loyal to their community, and which community (Empire or colony) were they most attached to. The issue of attachment is basically psychological. Granted that for a physicist (Rwflammang has a PhD in physics) emotions and psychology are not at issue but history is not looking for little particles, it is looking for a little understanding of people who lived long ago.  Rjensen (talk) 21:33, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It is impossible to psychoanalyze a person you have never met. And of course, a mass movement cannot be psychoanalyzed. Psychology is important, and it should not be abused. The section under question is called psychology, but it is not psychology. As cute as it is, it does not belong in an encyclopedia article. Rwflammang (talk) 03:16, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "It is impossible to psychoanalyze a person you have never met." that seems to be a personal POV belied by the scholarly literature. But understanding motivations of people of the distant past is what professional historians do for a living. It's how we manage to understand the past. But Rwflammang is misreading the methods used by the scholars.  They are not talking to live individuals on a couch, they are examining the public behavior of groups of public activists which is entirely different from what a psychologist does with a live patient. The historians conclusions are group characteristics--how did the Patriots and Loyalists differ. Rjensen (talk) 03:27, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I rather agree with Rwflammang. The way this article begins, starting with the heading "Psychology of Loyalism", suggests that Loyalism was some sort of treatable condition. It seems a very odd way to begin the page. ---Asteuartw (talk) 08:48, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: OK I rephrased the section while keeping all the scholarship.Rjensen (talk) 09:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Rjensen, that seems like a reasonable compromise. The article overall reads more like a series of bullet points than would be the case in an ideal world; I'm sure there is a great story to tell in there somewhere. But these potentially contentious articles can be hard to improve without stirring up a good deal of trouble. --- Asteuartw (talk) 16:54, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have added a background section at the front of the page by way of introduction. Hopefully this sets the stage in a slightly more useful way than the bullet points in the "Motivations of Loyalism" section. If anyone disagrees, please discuss here first. ---- Asteuartw (talk) 10:14, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: the new material is well done and useful. Rjensen (talk) 16:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Rjensen for the kind words. ---- Asteuartw (talk) 10:02, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too cute 

message: One of the things that strikes me as I read more about the revolution in  New York (and probably elsewhere), is how close the relationships were between loyalists and rebels.  They were frequently close neighbors and even family.  In a lot of cases they seem to have chosen sides because someone close to them chose a side - either with them or against them.  The revolution seemed to have been as much an opportunity to settle old scores, and possibly make a grab for someone's property, as a political argument.  I'm not sure if this material belongs her or somewhere else, but it strikes me as interesting in itself and a corrective to histories that portray  only a clash of armies.  In upstate NY, from what I read, "Tories" seem to have been constantly coming and going back and forth between Albany and Montreal, conducting raids, spying, kidnapping, and consorting with  closet loylalists who still lived here surrounded by their rebel neighbors. Likewise between Niagara and Pennsylvania. Peter Flass (talk) 18:31, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the article doesn't seem to discuss the motivations of the people who switched sides.  I'm not talking about the people who only wanted to be left alone and would go along with whoever seemed to be in control.  I've come across a few instances of people who fought on the Patriot side and then switched and fought for the Loyalists.  I don't know how many, if any, switched the other way. Some, like Benedict Arnold, seem to have been motivated by the feeling that they weren't appreciated or rewarded enough by the Patriots, or by personal quarrels with their officers. Are there any sources that discuss this? Peter Flass (talk) 14:23, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  more detail warranted? 

message: Yahoo!Montreal is in qubec  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.237.37.211 (talk) 21:26, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: What does that have to do with this article? General Ization Talk    21:29, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Montreal 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Per the comments in the GA review (January 2018) the list of Loyalists should not include entries without wikiarticles. I am going to work through the list and link any I can and remove the remainder. Meters (talk) 01:30, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. If anyone wants to write articles about any of the removed entries, the diff is here . Meters (talk) 03:18, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  list of notables 

message: The Notable Loyalists section of this article is a third of the length of an already long article. Perhaps it'd be best broken out as a separate list and linked to in this article? Comments from the group? Ledalion (talk) 01:27, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Meters (talk) 03:16, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Complete - List of notable Loyalists (American Revolution). Ledalion (talk) 16:08, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments on proposal to create "List of notable Loyalists"?

message: It seems as though many mentions of loyalist combatants - or just loyalists in general - are concluded with some assurance to the effect of “but they were very few in number” - often without citation or attribution and as a student of history and enthusiastic resident of New Jersey, I have sincere doubts. The reason my residency is pertinent is because the War of Independence held a smaller conflict within which amounted to a civil conflict within New Jersey. The line, even at the local level, is that the number of loyalists was always few but of course that would be the official history, who would be left to dispute it? The reason I call false is because I understand that in guerrilla warfare intel is hefted on the shoulders of the local populace, and it would seem the loyalist militias (led by the likes of John Bacon and other pine-bandits) had very good intel indeed since they were able to catch patriot militias unawares, literally sleeping, and massacre them - in one notable instance killing upwards of 50. 
You have to read between the lines, but when you do you see that you can’t get that kind of intel in that kind of conflict without knowing not just the location of the enemy, but their disposition, the location of their sentries, etc. During the last days of the war, when Bacon’s luck had nearly run out, dozens of locals rallied to his defense and gave him time to conduct his last escape. This stuff is public record and you can see the effects of the latent (though unspoken) history of loyalism in the relative isolation of the native “Pineys” in subsequent generations.
I’m using my local example to illustrate how skewed the historical record has become regarding loyalism in the colonies. It would be hypocritical to say “take my word for it” - all I am saying is that assertions - without quality attribution - that loyalists were few and far between should be rigorously questioned because once the war ends, everyone becomes a patriot - nobody wants their house burned down. The notion of the War of Independence as housing a civil conflict (or conflicts) within is criminally underrepresented in the historiography but integral to the history itself, I understand why all this had been swept under the rug for reasons of political expediency and nation-building but I’ll take the risk of saying the country is “grown up” enough to not let our founding mythos continue to dominate the history books when talking about the Revolution and subsequent blood-letting. 2601:87:4400:BEC0:85A6:FA06:5429:AE79 (talk) 16:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  “Number of Volunteers Low”