Talk:Canadian Pacific Railway/Archive 1

message: I removed this section because it sounded like trivia and hence unencyclopedic.  I tried to move as many facts into other sections but there are three that didn't fit.  If anyone wants to try putting these in context somewhere in the article, feel free.
* The CPR has created and owns 80 tunnels and 3,000 bridges.
* CPR employs 24,000 workers.
* CPR owns 48,000 freight cars. The railroad spends about $1 billion annually for maintenance, repairs and improvements.
-JYolkowski 01:16, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Facts about the Canadian Pacific 

message: I think we need to make war on the remaining red wikis in the article before it will be taken seriously as a FAC candidate.  I'm very surprised that some things (like Delaware and Hudson) don't have articles already...  Fawcett5 05:01, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that was something I was slightly concerned about (although I haven't gotten any comments about that on WP:FAC).  I took a look through the article a few hours ago and counted fourteen redlinks, not including the navigation templates.  Since then, I've unlinked three terms and created four new articles, including a D&H one.  As for why the D&H didn't have an article, we used to have an article on the D&H but it was deleted as a copyvio.  Also, I think you've created one new one.  So that brings us down to six redlinks, which is probably alright.  JYolkowski 18:47, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is looking a bit better.  I will have a crack at John Macoun and Yellowhead Pass in the next few days.  Some of the things that were unwikied should DEFINITELY get their own articles at some point, such as the crowsnest pass agreement (but I'm biased, I was the one that added that stuff).  Looking now, I think the special train section detracts a bit from the coherency of the article, although there is some good stuff there, especially the role the North-West rebellion played. Can it be reworked? Also we should add a bit about how Crowfoot allowed contruction through Blackfoot territory after negotiations with Father Albert Lacombe.  I've just finished adding the Lacombe article, but Crowfoot's is way underdeveloped.  Still, it's not a red wiki.  Fawcett5 21:33, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I might be biased here because it's one of the few sections I didn't write from scratch, but I too have mixed feelings about the "Special trains" section.  I feel that some of it makes sense to be there instead of elsewhere, but other stuff doesn't really need its own section.  Two sections aren't really saying anything so I'm going to remove them and maybe add a sentence or two elsewhere.  I'll leave the other sections in but copyedit them a bit more. JYolkowski 00:24, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still going to get around to this.  Between the power failure problems and being busy with real-world stuff I haven't been around here much this week, but I'll maybe do this this weekend.  JYolkowski 23:37, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes!  JYolkowski 23:37, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still too much red ink for FAC status 

message: The material on Navvies is interesting and good, but there is too much detail here for an article specifically about the CPR.  The article is already greater than 32K.  I would argue that much of it should be moved to the article on Navvies.  Since they played such an important role in building the CPR, they certainly merit a mention on the main page, but the detail should be elsewhere.  Opinions?
:Well, for one thing, "navvy" was not a term used for the Chinese railway workers; it was expressly for British navvies and there was no doubt that such a man as Navvy Jack was anything but a Brit.  Bowering's history of BC does another headspin with archaic working terms by calling the Chinese "gandy dancers", a term probably unknown to them and certainly not bestowed on them by Onderdonk's foremen (and in more recent years, the name of a famous but no longer extant gay bar in what has since become Vancouver's Yaletown district; now Bar None for those who know the area).  Further to this, the article makes no mention of non-Chinese workers.  And also fails to mention the brutal violence at Camp 23.....Skookum1 17:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Navvies 

message: Recent addition of locomotive and roster data contains many inaccuracies and I have deleted it. The CPR order for Green Goat hybrid locomotives is for 7 units and a tentative further 28 provided the first ones work out. Their purpose is not solely fuel conservation, rather reduction in greenhouse gas emmissions is a key factor. The maker, Railpower Technologies Corp. is based in North Vancouver, BC not Calgary, AB 
Totals of units are wrong. You need a better source of up todate information such as the Canadian Trackside Guide, an annual publication. The total of units already in the Article (paragraph above) is more accurate. 
There is no such thing as CP Rail except in newspaper stories. It has been for some time now, Canadian Pacific Railway.R.L.Kennedy 02:52, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the new current locomotive roster is unsightly and detracts from the narrative flow of the article.  It's nice information to have, but should be definitely spun off somehow. Opinions? Fawcett5 12:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like it got removed before I looked at this page, which I think is just as well since it was rather out-of-date.  If anyone does want to add a locomotive roster, I would suggest adding it in a separate article.  Too much detail, and this article's big enough as it is.  Personally I'm somewhat dubious about having one because, for a company as big as the CPR, the information is going to change really rapidly.  JYolkowski 00:11, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roster data 

message: 2816 was repatriated back to Canada from the United States. It went off CPR records January 1964, but was not on display until some months later in Bellows Falls, Vermont. This was years after the end of the steam era on the CPR. CPR absorbs all costs associated with operating the steam train, not just the locomotive.
R.L.Kennedy 21:32, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Steam Train

message: You write in the acticle, that the  Connaught Tunnel tunnel was the longest rail tunnel in the world when it was opened in 1916 with 5 miles. This is incorrect: It was the Arlberg Tunnel in 1884 with 6.4 miles. See Arlberg. Even the rail tunnel through the Saint Gotthard in Switzerland was longer at that time (unfortunatly I don't know the exact date and length of the latter). --Eddie2 14:48, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Fawcett5 changed it to "longest in the Western Hemisphere", which it was.  JYolkowski // talk 16:34, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Connaught Tunnel 

message: The relatively long (ex-SOO, nee MILW) Latta Subdivision in Indiana was just sold off to Indiana Railroad. Should this be mentioned in here, or perhaps the SOO Line article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Schnauf (talk • contribs) 
:It's already in Indiana Rail Road, perhaps just updating that (with a reference) would be more appropriate? If we add one subdivision sale here, then we could open ourselves up to a "slippery slope" requiring us to list all divestitures from larger carriers.  Slambo (Speak) 18:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Latta Sub

message: :the CPR remains an indisputable icon of Canadian nationalism.
Whew, that's a bit strong.  Kinda POV from a British Columbian's perspective too, i.e. "remains an indisputable icon of Central Canadian domination of the economy of the Western provinces".  I'm not meaning to sound all Reform Party over this; BC's history is inextricable from that of the CPR in a number of ways - but in general while it does have political-memory associations with nation-building, calling it an "indisputable icon of Canadian nationalism" is an over-reach and rather than being an icon of nationalism out here, it's an icon of monopoly corporate politics and high-sounding deals with the East that never worked out in BC's favour.Skookum1 18:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Indisputable?

message: Probably only someone familiar with BC history would recognize that phrase, which greeted eastern politicians on their visits to BC, as well as Lord Dufferin on his viceregal journey here; important though it is to Canadian history it's not in the "national curriculum" (as with most important bits of BC history, except those that make Canada sound good).  The Carnarvon Terms refer to the original deal between Canada and BC concerning the building of the railway; Ottawa's intransigence, and the hostility of the Mackenzie government towards BC politicians (Arthur Bunster in particular, and it didn't help that Arthur Bunster called Mackenzie out of the Commons and punched him in the nose outside...), led to widespread discontent in the only-just-previously colony and the refrain of this slogan became familiar in BC newspapers and political rhetoric.  I was surprised in the pre-CPR section overleaf to not see any mention of it, or of the shift in the building arrangements that was settled on (I'll dig out the details, and the whys and wherefores of the dispute) during the renegotiated deal that finally led to construction commencing in '81.  Railway politics in BC deserves more discussion in this article, including the roots of "the Chinese problem" in Canada's and Britain's refusal to enhance immigration from the British Isles to BC to get the railway built.  Also important and glaringly missing here is a discussion of the politics and land-speculation game played by the CPR concerning the routing and terminus of the railway, and how Victoria basically got snookered out of being the main city of hte province, and how the CPR was basically a colonial overlord over the early City of Vancouver; as with my comment just above about corporate monopoly politics, it's a truism that the CPR built Vancouver, ran Vancouver, owned Vancouver, and that it is something of an island/colony of Canadian culture/identity in an otherwise British Columbian sea (as still today, in fact); even the mansions of Shaughnessy were built to house CPR execs (the province's/colony's old wealth was largely on the Island or in New West), and otherwise dominated the economy in every area it ran through.  The neutralized discussion of the Crow Rate needs expansion as it does not deal with how this was designed to suppress the growth of industry west of the Great Lakes, nor matters such as how the CPR kept a lockdown on the provincial economy by forcing any goods shipped to places like Kamloops or Trail to have to be shipped to Vancouver first, warehoused there (in CPR warehouses), and then shipped back upcountry.Skookum1 17:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Carnarvon Terms Or Separation!"

message: I tried "Canadian Pacific", but it redirects to the railway only; granted the railway is where they got the dough and resources to do all the rest, but it strikes me that a Canadian Pacific wikipage should be about a lot more than the railroad.  Just created a redlink for CP Shipping on Coal Harbour and not sure what to do from here....will check Marathon and Cominco to see where those go, if anywhere.Skookum1 23:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Canadian Pacific Investments, CP Shipping, Marathon, Cominco?

message: I'm fine with this, but it has broader implications in terms of the strategic and geopolitical aspects of the reasons for the railway, and also the settlement colonization plan.  Some of this is addressed in the dickshovel.com/two.html linked in the section above, but it also is implicit in the creating of a subjugant area of the nation to the central corpus of the Lower Great Lakes-St. Lawrence, aka "Canada" as known until 1867; railway policies, as well as settlement and the governmental policies concerning the west (including its piecemealing out into three weak provinces, rather than one strong one) are also part of the formula.  In the West the history of the CPR is implicitly political, and in terms of its relationship to BC even more political and built into the history of the place - though in a way unlike the Prairies; how to address this without being POV I'll have to give some thought to...certainly the CPR's impact on settlement colonization and development in BC post-1885 is along the same lines, although the CPR didn't have the same latitude and influence that it did on the Prairies.  Whatever.  Just some thoughts; the new section is nice, might need some citing, but it opens doors on related subject matter concerning the railway as a nation "building" institution, as it is so much celebrated but maybe could be a little closer examination.  Too much like original research, I guess...Skookum1 21:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: addition of the CPR and The Colonization of Canada section

message: I checked Lines of Country and didn't see any CPR line to Portland, nor have I been able to find any other source.  What and where was this?  Portland was, AFAIK, served by Boston & Maine, Maine Central, Grand Trunk/CN and Portland Terminal (owned by B&M/MEC). Thanks...Plasma east 15:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Portland, Maine connection

message: The article states
In March 1885, the North-West Rebellion broke out in Saskatchewan. Van Horne, in Ottawa at the time, suggested to the government that the CPR could transport troops to Fort Qu'Appelle in eleven days.
Does the CPR go to Fort Qu'Appelle?  Shouldn't this be Qu'Appelle?  Check the Wikipedia entries for each - Fort Qu'Appelle is 65 km northeast of Regina, Qu'Appelle is located on the CPR mainline.
GreatGreenArkleseizure 04:26, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's probably Fort Qu'Appelle, as it was closer to the North West Rebellion when it occurred. Van Horne was probably talking about time in relation to the combined train and foot distance rather than only the train distance itself (if you catch my drift). Allan kuan1992 (talk) 06:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fort Qu'Appelle or Qu'Appelle? 

message: It seems that the whole history section, except the "1979 - Present" part, is severely lacking in citations. Can someone fix that? Allan kuan1992 (talk) 06:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah,sure! I'll get right on that! It's only 100 years of history. Check with me next year. R.L.Kennedy (talk) 01:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know that sarcasm is needed. However, as of now, this article fails FAC. It's doesn't even meet the Good Article criteria. Calebrw (talk) 14:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of Citations? 

message: I would like to know how this line compares (e.g. in length, construction time) with the earlier line across the US, and also with other key lines, especially the Transsiberian. Perhaps someone in the know could add info on these points? APW (talk) 09:01, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison with other transcontinental railways? 

message: I removed this recent addition as while it belongs in the article somewhere it doesn't belong in the lede; its last sentence also needs citation:
:CP Railway has since its founding also maintained it's own police service, Canadian Pacific Railway Police Service to protect rail commerce and rail infrastructure.  It is one of the oldest police services in Canada.
And of course that apostrophe-s "it's" needs fixing but I'm leaving it [sic] for now.  Adjunct operations to the railway, including railway and shipping and logging and mining companies, all need their own proper sections; but they don't all belogn in the lede, especially something as minor as the railway's security operations.Skookum1 (talk) 03:27, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: CPR Police

message: Why is this so large?  There are too many tweaks built into it - the size of the logo, the size of the map?  Would someone knowledge about fixing infoboxes reduce the size of this please?  It comes off as promotional/decorative, not information/summary.Skookum1 (talk) 03:31, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Logo/map/infobox size

message: The article somehow completely misses out on the full breadth's of the railway's wealth and financial empire; yes, in recent years they've been devolved adn the company's capital has been "decentralized" (largely for tax reasons, and liability issues, like other megacorps), but they're very much part of this railway's history and its legacy.  Lists of locomotives and boxcar models are all very nice; but the relevant details in company terms are "what CP hath wrought", not lists of rolling stock.  Cominco is currently a redirect ot Teck Resources, it shouldn't be....Marathon Realty was one of Canada's largest real estate companies, and probably still is under some other name (i can't keep track...).  All of teh above highly relevant to the section above called "CP in BC"....Skookum1 (talk) 03:43, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Marathon, Cominco, CPI, MacBlo etc.

message: somewhere I saw a good book on how the CPR was one of the main instigators of the global tourism industry, and how the marketing of its hotels and mountain scenery and various poster designs/advertising campaign were key to that, as was the "Grand Tour" via CPR steamships connecting from Vancouver through the Orient to Suez, etc..  From what I remember they were even bigger than Thomas Cook....this should have a section here, don't know what kind of resources/sources are online.Skookum1 (talk) 23:09, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: CPR and tourism

message: This major subsidiary at one time had 330 vessels on the BC Interior's lakes....I'll be at the Penticton Museum in the next while and will try and write up an article on it.Skookum1 (talk) 23:09, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Canadian Pacific Lake and River Service]]

message: When did it more to Calgary? Where in Calgary is it?  Where was it before Calgary?  Needs to be in here. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 13:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headquaters 

message: The title of the article is Canadian Pacific Railway, and the company hasn't operated anything else for over ten years. I would argue then that the sections on hotels, ships, the airline, etc don't belong in this article at all, except as appropriate in the history section. Another alternative is have a list of affiliated companies in the articles, that is just that, a list. But right now, the article presents these non-rail services as things that the company does now, rather than historical business units that are now operated by completely separate companies. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 12:26, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scope of article 

message: Hey, what's going on? I had to add all the info re Ackman and the proxy battle and the 9 day strike. Aren't these things important? Look, I don't like Ackman either but no sense being in denial. And the strike?? I know there are editors far more dedicated to this article than I am and know more about it, mostly because they are from Canada I guess, what's the deal??!! Quis separabit? 22:28, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Bill Ackman, 2012 strike

message: CP is such a huge empire, and so far reaching could we not have sub-pages ie CP in BC
Here is a template for route map.
SFS, I don't think the route map can be done, as for the article it would have to be system wide; maybe on Kettle Valley Railway it's a good idea, but unless there were a separate CP article for BC - and there's good reasons historically why there should be, because of the corporation's overwhelming role in the province's history/development - then the table above is just "clutter" on a national page.....It's not teh same situation as the BCR....with the KVR, however, which is a BC-only topic and also not 4000 miles long, it's conceivable...Skookum1 (talk) 13:46, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Might be worth doing with the Esquimalt & Nanaimo, though.....and the old BCER line definitely....Skookum1 (talk) 13:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A CP-in-BC article would be huge and it's very complex in nature, and I don't recommend YOU try starting it; it's gonna cause too many cleanup problems for other editors if you do it; that's not a criticism, it's a staement of fact since you aren't in the habit of showing respect for Wiki style guidelines, huh?  I agree it's needed, and most other Canadian editors east of the mountains wouldnt' clue in why it's so important so I'm not going to field it there (other than they're here)....it's politics - big politics, multiple companies - and too much room for "OR" (original research) adn "synthesis"; a route diagram is the least of our worries.  If you want look into the small Kootenays railways - Kaslo & Slocan, Nakusp & Slocan - and like I said the BCER article could use such a diagram, if you can find a chart of their stations (other than by exploring basemap...).Skookum1 (talk) 17:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Two more - Columbia and Kootenay Railway, which included the spur up the Slocan from Playmor Jct/South Slocan, and Columbia and Western Railway which I gather is incorporated, somehwat incorreclty,in the KVR article.Skookum1 (talk) 20:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

text: I've moved your British Columbia and the Canadian Pacific Railway draft article (that's my sugested title) to a sandbox page, probably User talk:Skookum1/CPinBC to keep it simple (I have other sandboxes).  Ideally it should have been YOUR sandbox, which is where you should work up stuff like this; talkpages aren't the place and if I didn't move this an admin would have soon deleted it. I've wanted an article on the Carnarvon Terms for a while now and if you haven't read [http://www.dickshovel.com/two.html and http://www.dickshovel.com/two2.html about the Pacific Scandal yet you should so so right now...are you aware of teh Canadian Pacific Survey article?  Anyway I'm gonna move that sandbox befrore we haev an edit conflict by you making a correction/addition - please take it all there and work it up to good shape, proerply wikifeified and cited, before you put it in main articlespace....Skookum1 (talk) 03:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Not all that strange when you know that the Blackfoot used to frequent the East Kootenay/Columbia Valley.....will have to read the cite I guess, never heard of them on the Revelstoke-Jordan River part of the Columbia before......where peoples are todayand what their stated boundaries are is a new thing, though.....Skookum1 (talk) 16:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: CP in BC

message: Hi, everyone! 
I was looking for reference as to how Canadian Pacific coaches got to Italy, even as part of Mussolini's train, and I enclose the link to the site explaining this.
http://retours.eu/en/12-canadian-pacific-cars-in-austria/#
Hope you work on it.
Keep up the good work.
Cheers from Dario Romani
Dario.romani1949@tiscali.it  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.12.103.82 (talk) 11:00, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  CP in Europe from 1912 onwards 

message: Obviously, this map of the CP is outdated. Compare the map currently at the top of the article with the map on the CPR website: http://www8.cpr.ca/cms/NR/rdonlyres/ewduhlm3vdvrx6jkj6akde4cqfrvfa3z3romag7ehjpvfhas4fqoqrwxrg3nk3mumx567qi2f5iff4h4kdoevfpkmge/Rev3Yplan+13+November+2009+English.pdf
This above link is a map of every single line (mainline & branchline) on the CP system as of 2009.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.235.98.213 (talk) 00:46, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously, the map of CPR is outdated: http://www.cpr.ca/en/choose-rail/network-and-facilities  Wait.  This is still broken?  Yeesh.  If I had any artistic talent, I'd fix it, alas ... --plaws (talk) 02:58, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

text: Another way the map is outdated: http://www.cpr.ca/en/investors/cp-completes-sale-of-the-southern-portion-of-d-h-line  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.226.95.41 (talk) 18:49, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canadian Pacific Map Update: 

message: This article reads a bit much like government and corporate propaganda and apologia, in places.
It needs to be made more objective, and not just take one party's word as good coin.
User:Pazouzou  —Preceding undated comment added 10:13, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Bias