Talk:Murder of Elisa Izquierdo

message: I don't have enough research material to expand on this article properly, but as to the importance: it was a noteworthy event in NY because it resulted in a complete overhaul of child protective services in the city. Heads rolled, protocols were changed, the agency even acquired a new name. Mademoiselle Sabina 08:02, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article importance 

message: Any suggestions to what articles should be linked in the "See Also" section? Epicgenius(talk to me • see my contributions)  21:17, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a case of child abuse by an adult. It is not a case where a minor committed a murder. There is no need to give any of the cases where this happened because of a perceived similarity.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 21:35, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Epicgenius. Thanks for opening this discussion. As it stands in this section the topics there now are ones which tragically are associated with Elisa's case. I think the only other ones which are worthy would be ones mentioned in the article like Elisa's Law, Administration for Children's Services in New York etc. (if such articles exist on Wikipedia) as they are directly linked/associated with this case. I did initially add some cases like the ones you mentioned myself several months ago when I expanded this article, but ultimately, as a prv. editor pointed out in an edit, it shouldn't be a long list of murder cases and murder victims not directly linked to the case.
	 
Some cases you mentioned you could argue (James Bulger, the Maddie Clifton case) are loosely similar given that they are child murder victims but the circumstances are different in how they died; others like Mary Flora Bell and George Stinney are only remotely similar: a child killing other children in Newcastle, U.K. in Bell's case and Stinney being executed at 14 with his conviction disputed and race an apparent factor. You could argue cases like Baby P being similar and I can see merits of this type of article being added, but, if that was added, there could be many other cases of a similar nature which are added here and the list could grow and grow.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:39, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

text: There are already categories for Murder committed by minors and Child abuse resulting in death, so there is no need to add the same information to see also sections. Categories are the proper way to explore a large number of similarities, see also sections should be much more tightly focused.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 21:51, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also 

message: Currently, the article states: "The intended travel date for he and his daughter was May 26, 1994. However, prior to the intended travel date, Gustavo died from lung cancer. The date of his passing was the very date he had planned to travel to Cuba with his daughter." These sentences are unreferenced and contradictory. Did he die prior to the intended travel date, or on the intended travel date? (Also it should read "for him", not "for he"). Pburka (talk) 23:17, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: A reference for the fact her father passed on the day he intended to take her to Cuba can be found  here; this is one of the many tragic twists in this case. I think "for he and his daughter" rather than "him" reads better, but support consensus should that word be replaced.--Kieronoldham (talk) 23:40, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case, he didn't die prior to the intended travel date. In the first sentence, "him" is the object of a preposition, so it should be "him", not "he". One would say that the travel date was "for him", not "for he". The substitution of "he" may be a case of hypercorrection. Pburka (talk) 23:48, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The last sentence in the section disputed explains the date he passed away was May 26 and this section is about her father's passing in relation to the case. The travel tickets were purchased ultimately to take Elisa away from her mother; she was his child and obv. they traveled together as a pair even though 2 tickets were purchased. He and his daughter would be more apt IMO, but obv. consenus will govern.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:03, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "He and his daughter" is only appropriate if they're the subject of the sentence. As the object, it must be "him and his daughter". I've reworded it to avoid the issue completely. Pburka (talk) 04:23, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No worries. "Himself" reads better than "he" or "him".--Kieronoldham (talk) 15:01, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death of father 

message: Would there be any objection to renaming this "Murder of Elisa Izquierdo" ? Because the article isn't so much about her as it is about what happened to her (horrible and tragic though that is). DS (talk) 00:42, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Go for it. AldezD (talk) 00:48, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Good job.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:02, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: this discussion should have went on longer, torture victims don't have precedent to go under "murder of". the death isn't even mentioned till the end. GuzzyG (talk) 12:14, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The notable subject is the crime, rather than the victim. I support renaming it to something reflecting the crime. Please feel free to suggest an alternative title. Pburka (talk) 13:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  This was longstanding abuse there's multiple crimes, "Death of" is better then murder in my opinion but my preference is to restore it to her name like Matthew Shepard GuzzyG (talk) 15:07, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Since this case resulted in a conviction for second degree murder under US law, it is hard to see what the problem is. "Death of x'" is too vague and misleading if a court has delivered a guilty verdict on a murder charge. See also Murder of Victoria Climbié, a similar case in the UK.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 15:27, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renaming 

message: shouldn't we add a detail somewhere about carlos hanging her on a shower rod? i read that somewhere i'll have to find the article. Hiiliketowrite (talk) 14:33, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: References (verifiable) cannot be refuted if they are from a reputable source.--Kieronoldham (talk) 15:00, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  more abuse from carlos