Talk:Poles in the United Kingdom

message: This is now the ONLY British ethnic minority page on Wikipedia not to show a brief list of people of that descent.  It's now out of kilter with the other pages.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.67.215.251 (talk • contribs).
:Then this is the only page of that type to follow our policies. Such lists should be collected by categories, not pages.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Should Scottish immigration to Poland be mentioned on this topic?

message: I think it is very dubious to call Bonnie Prince Charles Polish.  While he did have a Polish Mother, His father was not (James II/VII of England/Scotland). He was born in Italy, and the wikipedia article on him doesn't mention any time spent in Poland. Saying he is Polish is a a bit of an exaggeration, and even half Polish seems too much. I suggest we remove his image and link suggesting he is. Bagster (talk) 22:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. You may want to ask for input at WP:PWNB.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:16, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed it. - Francis Tyers · 20:33, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree with my precedessor. Calling Bonnie Prince Charlie a Polish British or Polish English does not mean that he was Polish, only he was an Englishman or a Briton with Polish descent. When a person is not monoethnic and is a descendant of immigrants from other countries than where he or she lives, it is common to call that person and identify with his or her ancestry. That's all...   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.173.190.230 (talk) 19:20, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: It is a stretch to call Bonnie Prince Charles Polish - maybe Remove?

message: Barbara Kaczmarowska Hamilton - I think she should me be mentioned here. She's a famous portrait painter, wife of Lord   Hamilton..  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.223.233 (talk) 01:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First, she needs an article: Barbara Kaczmarowska Hamilton.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  13:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about her? 

message: Wouldn't this be better as Anglo-Polish? I don't see any mention of Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. - Francis Tyers · 20:35, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Since 2004 there have been an increasing number of Polish-British citizens in the UK." As the majority of Polish immigrants to the UK do not seek British nationality, can this mainly be attributed to the number of babies being born?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.166.66.249 (talk) 16:11, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Perhaps it was intended to mean that the number of Poles in the UK has grown since 2004, but that is already covered earlier in the introduction. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:51, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: British?

message: Should Tracey Ullman be included as her dad was Polish?  Jniech (talk) 08:24, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tracey Ullman 

message: I have reorganised the “Notable individuals” section.  Hopefully it makes it clearer who is listed in this section.  There seem some strange choices.  Are those killed in Iraq really that notable?  What about Artur Boruc and Tomasz Kuszczak?
Anyone have thoughts on how to select those to be included in this section? Jniech (talk) 11:45, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What we need here (and for other, similar articles) is a single source that lists notable individuals from the group in question. Whether that exists is doubtful though and, at the moment, the list is just made up of those people editors could think of, which isn't much by way of a selection process. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the comment.  I largely agree which is why I reorganised then questioned those listed.  I wonder if I rename it something like “British Poles with book written about them” i.e. not in a book but a whole book written on them.  That way I have selection criteria justifying their inclusion.  Jniech (talk) 15:57, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly, although maybe we could lower the requirement to a publication of some sort (such as a newspaper article) rather than it necessarily having to be a book, providing it discusses their connection with Poland in more than just a passing way? Cordless Larry (talk) 16:02, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

text: OK, well I understand the need for parsimony so I'm happy to try the book criterion and see how it goes. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:05, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hang on, I don't agree that not having a book written about an individual makes that person not notable. I doubt many of those WW2 Generals, nor the British Foreign Secretary, nor the Polish Finance Minister, have had books written about them yet. I would vote for using a newspaper mention as the test. Am happy for some of those actresses to be cut out. I think we should use our own judgement and discretion rather some arbitrary rule that may cause freak results. As it happens I think Eleanor Dlugosz is an example of someone who is notable, even though she doesn't even have her own Wiki, let alone a book. She is, however, in many news items. -Chumchum7 (talk) 17:16, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What we really want to limit it to is significant coverage in publications. That's why I initially thought that limiting it to books was too restrictive. I'm sure there won't be too many newspaper and web references providing that we insist on it being more than non-trivial coverage. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:20, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

text: I'm not calling for WP:OR, just common sense when forming some rule of thumb about who to select. If you want to talk about what Wikipedia allows, Wikipedia does not consider books superior to newspapers as verifiable source material. With respect, this 'book' rule, is your original idea, not Wikipedia's. Imagine if we can't find books on Rostowski and Miliband, but then we can find a book on Rula Lenska? God forbid.. ;-) -Chumchum7 (talk) 18:12, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

text: Of course, I have never said we should include every single Polish British person who gets mentioned in a newspaper. I am talking about the very strict guidelines at WP:Biographies of living persons. According to Wikipedia, we cannot delete individuals from this page purely on the basis that they haven't had a book written about them. That would be our very own editorial policy, not Wikipedia's. Editors are meant to use judgement and discretion in what gets included or cut from articles. I'm sure you have some common sense reasons for wanting to cut some individuals from this page - the procedure is for us to discuss who we want cut, rather than for us to create our own editorial policy independent of Wikipedia guidelines. For starters, I'm not aware of any book about Jacek Rostowski, the Finance Minister of Poland, who was born, raised and educated in London. He should not be cut, and that doesn't contradict Wikipedia guidelines. -Chumchum7 (talk) 18:47, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

text: I don't see how having written a book makes the person notable. I'm also concerned that this discussion is heading in the direction of deciding who we want to include and then finding the criteria to justify that ex post. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:08, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I will redraw from the discussion for now as I don’t want to upset anyone but feel we need an agreement on who should appear.  I understand my suggestion was not perfect but it gave a reason otherwise it is down to the editors personal views. Jniech (talk) 19:22, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No offence taken. We definitely don't need to add all 200+ individuals of Polish origin just because a newspaper mention justifies some entries. That would be like saying, 'people can smoke at the age of 16, therefore everyone over the age of 16 is a smoker'. Some notable people are in books, some have written books, some have been in newspapers. We the editors have to discuss and choose, this is where human common sense is required, and that is why Wikipedia invites us to contribute in the first place. We're meant to use our personal judgement and ability to communicate with each other and establish consensus. We're not meant to make up new rules, and I'm not going to make up any new rules about selection criteria either. Frankly, I don't see such a big problem with a long list in the first place, but if you're desperate to cut entries then in my opinion a couple of those 'notable actresses' can be binned right away, no made-up rules required. -Chumchum7 (talk) 19:26, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, don't give up Jniech. Your efforts are appreciated. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:37, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Not giving up as such, just letting the other editors have time for their say.  I have got an idea which I will work on in my talk area and if it yields any result then will ask you to review it in a week or so time. Jniech (talk) 09:19, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

text: In my honest opinion the article is fine how it is. I'd likely vote against re-titling it, splitting it, or removing sections from it. -Chumchum7 (talk) 17:21, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable individuals 

message: The information about Poland offering sanctuary has been removed from this article.  I accept it but question where we can put it?  Even the article Poland – United Kingdom relations may not be the right place.  Jniech (talk) 19:10, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: How about History of the Jews in Poland? I removed it from this article because it was clearly about people moving from Britain to Poland, not the other way around. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:20, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title of article 

message: WP:CONSENSUS needs to be established on the title of this article. I prefer "Polish British" because (1) it is a logical continuation of Polish Australian, Polish American, Polish Brazilian and Polish Canadian ( WP doesnt have e.g. "Poles in Canada" for good reasons); and (2) it more clearly indicates the inclusion of second and third generation Poles, many of whom are no longer Polish citizens (can e.g. David Miliband really be described as a Pole in the UK?) Editors please add below whether you support or oppose my motion to restore the title to "Polish British", with reasons why. -Chumchum7 (talk) 10:04, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd prefer to go with a term that enjoys wide usage, and I'm not sure that "Polish British" does. A quick Google search suggests that "British Poles" is faily widely used, in popular and academic contexts. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:21, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

text: This title follows other titles in the series "Migration to the United Kingdom from Europe". The article cannot be at "British Poles" or "Polish British", because most of the topic (as with others in the series) covers Polish people in the UK whether they are also "British" or not. So while the suggested article titles don't cover these guys, the current title ("Poles in the United Kingdom") covers migrant Poles as well as naturalised Poles and English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish people of partial/full Polish descent. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:28, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I was going to mention that, but the problem is that people such as David Miliband would most likely never regard themselves as Poles, but rather as British, so the title is problematic either way. A solution might be to retitle the article Polish migration to the United Kingdom, which avoids labelling the people concerned. A similar solution has been employed at Latin American migration to the United Kingdom. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:33, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, then this article isn't for him,, no matter the title (as all suggestions imply he is Polish). On the other hand, no matter what Miliband thinks, he is a Briton of Polish descent and, as long as that is verifiable from reliable sources, he can get listed as such. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:38, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, but I don't think being a "Briton of Polish descent" makes him a "Pole in the United Kingdom". Cordless Larry (talk) 15:42, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not any more or less so than "British Pole" or "Polish British"; you see, I get the problem, but the suggested names don't solve it. In any case, having a list of people of Polish descent in this article doesn't not mean that people on the list are "Poles" in the sense you think Miliband would reject. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:50, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that "British Pole" or "Polish British" are equally problematic, as I concede above. That's why I suggested Polish migration to the United Kingdom. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:55, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

text: It looks like we need to decide which series informs the title, either (1) the precedent of "Migration to the United Kingdom from Europe" or (2) the precedent set by the articles on American, Australian, Brazilian and Canadian Polish communities. FWIW we also have Black British, British Pakistani and British Indian but the London Mayor is billed as a "Turk in the United Kingdom" and the Duke of Edinburgh is billed as a "Greek in the United Kingdom", which IMO reads as a bit funny... -Chumchum7 (talk) 17:50, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It does indeed sound a bit odd! The point with Black British etc. is that they are terms used in UK National Statistics, so using them as article titles does not involve coining neologisms. Being used in the census also means that we know how many people there are who consider themselves to be Black British, which we don't for British Poles and others. I see that as another reason to go for Polish migration to the United Kingdom in this instance. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:58, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now moved the article, since there didn't seem to be any objections to the title Polish migration to the United Kingdom. Cordless Larry (talk) 00:44, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Poles in the UK" or "Polish British" 

message: The intro has veered off in the direction of recent migration, with data on numbers born in Poland. The article is about the community as a whole, including second generation descendents of Polish immigrants, people like David Miliband who were born in the UK. The 1 million figure always seems to indicate a total of 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen Poles - which would not contradict the country-of-birth data, as the intro suggests it does. The intro needs a re-write to reflect this.   -Chumchum7 (talk) 10:28, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Where does it say in the sources for the 1 million estimate that this includes British-born people of Polish origin? Cordless Larry (talk) 20:07, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This one states that the 1 million figure is an unofficial estimate of the number of Polish migrant workers. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:09, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct - at one stage there were around 7 sources for the data in the intro, at least one of which I recall (I think it was The Guardian) had the 1 million figure as a total Polish-born plus British-born members of the community. That source was removed, so indeed the sentence was not backed up by a source. However, the source could be restored, if someone can find it again. -Chumchum7 (talk) 16:03, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: Seen as Ed Miliband is now leader of the opposition, while his brother is only a back bencher, should Ed replace Dave in the main article picture or does Davids years as the Foreign Secretary over-rule this? --Yerkschmerk (talk) 15:57, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ed for Dave? 

message: In light of this discussion, I've removed all of the unsourced entries from the list of notable individuals in the article. They are listed below, as they appeared in the article, so as to facilitate their restoration if and when references can be found. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:53, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced notable individuals 

message: I had to correct the assertion that Polish is "the second most spoken language in Britain". It is, in fact, the second most spoken language in England, not Britain (as the references themselves indicate). In the UK as a whole it is the third most spoken language after English and Welsh. Sanddef (talk) 20:14, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  2nd or 3rd Language 

message: Failed due to insufficient inline references. That said, the article doesn't need that many of them, and is reasonably well structured. A little dedicated work could see it approach GAN. I've added a few good refs for anyone interested in improving this. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:19, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: B-class review

message: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/20/polish-migrants-strike-blood-donation-protest Xx236 (talk) 05:30, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish Blood 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: A large addition has been made to the introduction of the article today. It is unsourced, which wouldn't be an issue if the material was sourced later in the article (per MOS:LEAD, the introduction should summarise the article), but that doesn't seem to be the case for all of the material added. It is also non-neutral in places (e.g. "the hard won resurgence of an independent Polish state" and "placing the state under the Soviet yoke"). I will inform the IP editor of this discussion, and will be partially reverting their additions if improvements cannot be made. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:55, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition to introduction 

message: Fellow Wikipedians and watchers, thank you for your help and support, especially, Nihil novi, Piotruś, Jonesey95, JackofOz (and Cordless Larry for your forbearance) in raising this article into a higher class, it is to be hoped. I still think we should have some inserts on commerce and food, but maybe I am not the one to do it: once bitten, twice shy and all that... (On your advice, and after hearing from Wikimedia volunteers, I shall be re-launching myself shortly with an alias and log in). Festive greetings.--80.168.172.177 (talk) 19:06, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thank you!  

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:07, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: Not very likely the article tells the truth and first contacts started around times of king Jogaila and forming of Polish-Lithuanian union, I believe it was at least a century earlier but when actually ? 2A02:C7C:A820:6F00:81B6:1C87:5D10:2052 (talk) 13:15, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  When first ever English-Polish contact happen?