Talk:Jihad/Archive 7

message: I can't edit this article because I've protected it, so this is just an opinion in an effort to sort out one aspect of the dispute. As I see it, the sentence: "However, there are no liberal Muslim movements that have significant power in any Muslim states, nor is it clear that such liberal Muslim movements have significant followings in any Muslim states" is original research, because it's making an assertion, not backed up with any source, in order to build a case. Even if it did have a source, it would still be trying to build a case. That makes it part of the editor's own opinion, argument, or analysis, and that makes it original research.
This is mostly to do with the position of the sentence. If it were elsewhere, in a context in which it flowed more naturally as a pertinent fact, it would be okay, but in this particular passage, it's clear that it's being forced in. Regarding a source, it's Enviroknot who should provide the source if he wants to keep the edit, so as I see it, the sentence violates Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Cite your sources. I hope this helps. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:05, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
:Exactly what I was saying before. Thanks for clarifying this.--Anonymous editor 02:08, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
:Also agree. Needs a source to back it up. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:22, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The statement is patently true. There are no significant liberal or modernist Muslim movements anywhere in the world. It's simple a fact of life. If you believe that there is a significant liberal or modernist Muslim movement somewhere in the world, then the burden of proof lies on you - you must prove that such a movement exists. It is not up to someone else to prove that no such movements exist, just like it's no one's responsibility to prove that pink invisible elephants dont exist. It's just common sense that there are no significant liberal or modernist Muslim movements anywhere in the world. Everyone knows it, and no one has a counter-example. If you were to say "there are no significant conservative or fundamentalist Muslim movements in the world", I could rattle off half a dozen counter-examples from memory. Anyone who claims that there is a significant liberal Muslim movement somewhere in the world must prove it; until then, it is legitimate to assume that there are no significant liberal islamic movements - just as it is legitimate to assume that there are no invisible pink elephants, though we cannot provide a source for this particular claim. --Zeno of Elea 10:29, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: look, the "pink Elephants" example is different by the crucial word "significant". We wouldn't need to say "no significant pink Elephants exist" thereby brushing some poor insignificant pink Elephants under the carpet. It is very obivious that liberal Muslim organisations exist. But are they significant? Is significance in the eye of the beholder? If you need to blow up buildings to qualify as "significant" then clearly, no significant liberal Muslim organizations exist. dab (ᛏ) 10:35, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  "It is very obvious that liberal Muslim organisations exist."  PLease provid a source. This is not at all obvious to me. Please tell us the names of one or more liberal Muslim organizations, movements, or sects. --Zeno of Elea 11:36, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: minus the "significant", no problem at all. We have one right here in Zurich, and they are at least of local significance. They are called Vereinigung der Islamischen Organisationen in Zürich (VIOZ) http://www.vioz.ch/ and they recently published a set of principles  on non-violence, democracy, and women's rights. Another Swiss group is called Forum für einen fortschrittlichen Islam (FFI), and apparently they are even more progressive , . I am quoting Swiss groups because I know them first hand, mind you, I have no doubt there are similar organizations in any number of other countries. dab (ᛏ) 11:50, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Opinion

message: Re: this addition ---
Historical Occurances of Jihad
By World War I, the Ottoman empire was the only remaining Muslim empire in the world. As a result of the war, the Islamic empire was dismantled and the newly formed state of Turkey came under the leadership of Kemal Atatürk who subsequently abolished the institution of the Caliphate. Militant Jihad became associated only with a number of rebel, insurgent and terrorist groups, dispersed throughout the world. In the view of many Muslims, the religious legitimacy of such groups became questionable. In the 19th and 20th centuries, almost all of the Muslim world was either a territory of some empire (either Western or Ottoman). Western imperialism has led many groups of Muslims to begin Jihad movements against the foreign occupiers. With the end of World War II and the subequent fall of Western imperialism, the Muslim world became seperated into a huge number of  independant Muslim states. At the same time, Israel was founded as an independent Jewish state, which immediatly spawned an exceptionaly deadly conflict between Israel and its Muslim neighbours and inhabitants. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict, along with the Soviet invason of Afghanistan, French conduct in North Africa, and the plight of Muslims in the former Yugoslavia, has inspired many Muslims around the world to engage in militant Jihad (including targeted attacks on innocent, non-combatant civilians) against Israel, the United States, European Union member states, and other non-Muslim states around the world.  Furthermore, the establishment of various secular or dictatorial, independent Muslim states angered leaders of Islamist movements who felt that their states ought to be ruled by a more religious establishment. This caused Jihad movements in former colonies, that were once aimed against foreign Western occupiers, to be aimed against the local secular establishment. Notably, the tactics used by Jihad groups against Israel, the United States, and European Union member states, the Philippines, and non-Muslim persons in Muslims states suh as Egypt and Turkey, has not led to a large outcry against the religious legitimacy of such groups. A small but signifanct number of Muslim fundamentalists around the world continue to sympathize with and provide aid to groups that claim to be carrying out Jihad. As a result of the recent American invasion of Iraq, popular media has at times claimed that Jihad movements have become been revitalized with recruits and sympathizers as the Jihad insurgency momvement in Iraq is easily seen as a just cause by Muslims who believe that US is a foreign non-Muslim invader that must be fought against as a matter of religious duty.  Nevertheless, it is not apparent that the opposition to the American invasion of Iraq is substantially different from the resistance of various groups in non-Muslim states to invasions by outside forces.
* Does this material belong in the article? 
* Another way of phrasing this question is: Is this article fundamentally different from Just war, and if so, why? Even a brief visit to Just war suggests that the inclusion of contemporary conflicts there would be jarringly out of place.
* Is the level of writing in this passage up to WP standards? (And no, I personally don't feel like rewriting it.) BrandonYusufToropov 7 July 2005 13:17 (UTC)
no, it bloats the article. "Historical occurrences" should just be a list linking to conflicts which already have their own article. dab (ᛏ) 7 July 2005 13:24 (UTC)
:: "Does this material belong in the article?"  Why wouldn't it belong? It is obvious that historical occurances of jihad are relevant to a discussion of jihad.
:: "Another way of phrasing this question is: Is this article fundamentally different from Just war, and if so, why?"  That is clearly NOT a way of rephrasing your first question. Furthermore, this article is about Jihad, it is not about the Just War Doctrine. Just War Doctrine refers either to modern, secular, international law, or to  ancient Greek philosophy, or to Catholic  doctrine. Jihad is not synonymous with the Just War Theory. This is just an attempt to BrandonYusufToropov's part to insinuate that there is nothing unjust about cause of militant Islamists and the means by which they further their cause.
:: "Is the level of writing in this passage up to WP standards? (And no, I personally don't feel like rewriting it.)"  The occurance of typos or spelling erros is not a legitimate reason for trying to suppress information that fails to portray Jihad as something that Oprah Winfrey or Gandhi would have thought up. --Zeno of Elea 02:02, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions 

message: SouthernComfort makes some excellent points about Al Qaeda -- they are, as he points out, not mainstream. If you think otherwise, go to any 100 masjids in the US, listen to the khutbah, and talk to the imam. Count how many militants you found advocating for unified global assault on the American military and a return to the caliphate. I predict the number will be zero.
Are things different in Saudi Arabia? You betcha, but even there, support for Al Qaeda assaults on civilians is not the same as purple anger at American foreign policy, and you will find if you visit there, a hell of a lot more of the latter than the former.  Exploiting that rage is OBL's mission. Why we're giving him so much material to work with is the mystery of our young century.
Yes, there are bad guys. Just like there are KKK members and abortion clinic bombers and other murderers of civilians. Problem is OBL is so much more ruthless, and so much better at staging high-profile catastrophes, than KKK or Christian Identity. That ability does not, however, make him mainstream, and it certainly doesn't mean his twisted view of Islam should determine, for anyone else, what jihad "is." 
peace, BrandonYusufToropov 14:22, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: * "Yes, there are bad guys [al-Qaeda] ..."   This is as far from NPOV as it gets. --Zeno of Elea 20:46, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How so? (Not that talk pages need NPOV, but it seems like a statement very few people would disagree with.) BrandonYusufToropov 20:49, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "it seems like a statement very few people would disagree with" That a particular POV is shared by a majority does not suddenly make it NPOV.  --Zeno of Elea 21:08, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't recall reading that a talk page has to be NPOV.  Looking at the history of this talk page I can see that is clearly not the case.Heraclius 20:48, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  BrandonYusufToropov is pushing his POV as the criterion for determining "what jihad is," in the talk page for the article on jihad. There is no single interpretation of Jihad, yet Brandon portrays his POV as the definitive view, while criticizing other POVs as the "twisted" views of "the bad guys." If this is his attitude in the talk page, then it is also the attitude that he will (and DOES) carry over into his edits of the article. Neither the talk page nor the article itself are appropriate places for POV pushing. --Zeno of Elea 21:07, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So you feel that it is wrong to label Al Qaeda as the "bad guys"?Heraclius 21:14, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is an encylopedia, it is not a religious inquisition.  --Zeno of Elea 21:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Anyways, about your edits, I think you should edit one section at a time instead of putting in a ton of unsourced information.  First of all, the intro should include the world Islamist terrorism because there has been much reverting in the history of this page and hopefully the inclusion of that word will make the anti-Islamic people a bit happier.  As for your section on history, you have to source much of what you wrote or it will read more like an originally-researched essay.Heraclius 20:54, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Continuing discussion 

message: I can't edit this article because I've protected it, so this is just an opinion in an effort to sort out one aspect of the dispute. As I see it, the sentence: "However, there are no liberal Muslim movements that have significant power in any Muslim states, nor is it clear that such liberal Muslim movements have significant followings in any Muslim states" is original research, because it's making an assertion, not backed up with any source, in order to build a case. Even if it did have a source, it would still be trying to build a case. That makes it part of the editor's own opinion, argument, or analysis, and that makes it original research.
This is mostly to do with the position of the sentence. If it were elsewhere, in a context in which it flowed more naturally as a pertinent fact, it would be okay, but in this particular passage, it's clear that it's being forced in. Regarding a source, it's Enviroknot who should provide the source if he wants to keep the edit, so as I see it, the sentence violates Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Cite your sources. I hope this helps. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:05, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
:Exactly what I was saying before. Thanks for clarifying this.--Anonymous editor 02:08, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
:Also agree. Needs a source to back it up. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:22, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The statement is patently true. There are no significant liberal or modernist Muslim movements anywhere in the world. It's simple a fact of life. If you believe that there is a significant liberal or modernist Muslim movement somewhere in the world, then the burden of proof lies on you - you must prove that such a movement exists. It is not up to someone else to prove that no such movements exist, just like it's no one's responsibility to prove that pink invisible elephants dont exist. It's just common sense that there are no significant liberal or modernist Muslim movements anywhere in the world. Everyone knows it, and no one has a counter-example. If you were to say "there are no significant conservative or fundamentalist Muslim movements in the world", I could rattle off half a dozen counter-examples from memory. Anyone who claims that there is a significant liberal Muslim movement somewhere in the world must prove it; until then, it is legitimate to assume that there are no significant liberal islamic movements - just as it is legitimate to assume that there are no invisible pink elephants, though we cannot provide a source for this particular claim. --Zeno of Elea 10:29, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: look, the "pink Elephants" example is different by the crucial word "significant". We wouldn't need to say "no significant pink Elephants exist" thereby brushing some poor insignificant pink Elephants under the carpet. It is very obivious that liberal Muslim organisations exist. But are they significant? Is significance in the eye of the beholder? If you need to blow up buildings to qualify as "significant" then clearly, no significant liberal Muslim organizations exist. dab (ᛏ) 10:35, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  "It is very obvious that liberal Muslim organisations exist."  PLease provid a source. This is not at all obvious to me. Please tell us the names of one or more liberal Muslim organizations, movements, or sects. --Zeno of Elea 11:36, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: minus the "significant", no problem at all. We have one right here in Zurich, and they are at least of local significance. They are called Vereinigung der Islamischen Organisationen in Zürich (VIOZ) http://www.vioz.ch/ and they recently published a set of principles  on non-violence, democracy, and women's rights. Another Swiss group is called Forum für einen fortschrittlichen Islam (FFI), and apparently they are even more progressive , . I am quoting Swiss groups because I know them first hand, mind you, I have no doubt there are similar organizations in any number of other countries. dab (ᛏ) 11:50, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Opinion

message: Re: this addition ---
Historical Occurances of Jihad
By World War I, the Ottoman empire was the only remaining Muslim empire in the world. As a result of the war, the Islamic empire was dismantled and the newly formed state of Turkey came under the leadership of Kemal Atatürk who subsequently abolished the institution of the Caliphate. Militant Jihad became associated only with a number of rebel, insurgent and terrorist groups, dispersed throughout the world. In the view of many Muslims, the religious legitimacy of such groups became questionable. In the 19th and 20th centuries, almost all of the Muslim world was either a territory of some empire (either Western or Ottoman). Western imperialism has led many groups of Muslims to begin Jihad movements against the foreign occupiers. With the end of World War II and the subequent fall of Western imperialism, the Muslim world became seperated into a huge number of  independant Muslim states. At the same time, Israel was founded as an independent Jewish state, which immediatly spawned an exceptionaly deadly conflict between Israel and its Muslim neighbours and inhabitants. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict, along with the Soviet invason of Afghanistan, French conduct in North Africa, and the plight of Muslims in the former Yugoslavia, has inspired many Muslims around the world to engage in militant Jihad (including targeted attacks on innocent, non-combatant civilians) against Israel, the United States, European Union member states, and other non-Muslim states around the world.  Furthermore, the establishment of various secular or dictatorial, independent Muslim states angered leaders of Islamist movements who felt that their states ought to be ruled by a more religious establishment. This caused Jihad movements in former colonies, that were once aimed against foreign Western occupiers, to be aimed against the local secular establishment. Notably, the tactics used by Jihad groups against Israel, the United States, and European Union member states, the Philippines, and non-Muslim persons in Muslims states suh as Egypt and Turkey, has not led to a large outcry against the religious legitimacy of such groups. A small but signifanct number of Muslim fundamentalists around the world continue to sympathize with and provide aid to groups that claim to be carrying out Jihad. As a result of the recent American invasion of Iraq, popular media has at times claimed that Jihad movements have become been revitalized with recruits and sympathizers as the Jihad insurgency momvement in Iraq is easily seen as a just cause by Muslims who believe that US is a foreign non-Muslim invader that must be fought against as a matter of religious duty.  Nevertheless, it is not apparent that the opposition to the American invasion of Iraq is substantially different from the resistance of various groups in non-Muslim states to invasions by outside forces.
* Does this material belong in the article? 
* Another way of phrasing this question is: Is this article fundamentally different from Just war, and if so, why? Even a brief visit to Just war suggests that the inclusion of contemporary conflicts there would be jarringly out of place.
* Is the level of writing in this passage up to WP standards? (And no, I personally don't feel like rewriting it.) BrandonYusufToropov 7 July 2005 13:17 (UTC)
no, it bloats the article. "Historical occurrences" should just be a list linking to conflicts which already have their own article. dab (ᛏ) 7 July 2005 13:24 (UTC)
:: "Does this material belong in the article?"  Why wouldn't it belong? It is obvious that historical occurances of jihad are relevant to a discussion of jihad.
:: "Another way of phrasing this question is: Is this article fundamentally different from Just war, and if so, why?"  That is clearly NOT a way of rephrasing your first question. Furthermore, this article is about Jihad, it is not about the Just War Doctrine. Just War Doctrine refers either to modern, secular, international law, or to  ancient Greek philosophy, or to Catholic  doctrine. Jihad is not synonymous with the Just War Theory. This is just an attempt to BrandonYusufToropov's part to insinuate that there is nothing unjust about cause of militant Islamists and the means by which they further their cause.
:: "Is the level of writing in this passage up to WP standards? (And no, I personally don't feel like rewriting it.)"  The occurance of typos or spelling erros is not a legitimate reason for trying to suppress information that fails to portray Jihad as something that Oprah Winfrey or Gandhi would have thought up. --Zeno of Elea 02:02, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions 

message: SouthernComfort makes some excellent points about Al Qaeda -- they are, as he points out, not mainstream. If you think otherwise, go to any 100 masjids in the US, listen to the khutbah, and talk to the imam. Count how many militants you found advocating for unified global assault on the American military and a return to the caliphate. I predict the number will be zero.
Are things different in Saudi Arabia? You betcha, but even there, support for Al Qaeda assaults on civilians is not the same as purple anger at American foreign policy, and you will find if you visit there, a hell of a lot more of the latter than the former.  Exploiting that rage is OBL's mission. Why we're giving him so much material to work with is the mystery of our young century.
Yes, there are bad guys. Just like there are KKK members and abortion clinic bombers and other murderers of civilians. Problem is OBL is so much more ruthless, and so much better at staging high-profile catastrophes, than KKK or Christian Identity. That ability does not, however, make him mainstream, and it certainly doesn't mean his twisted view of Islam should determine, for anyone else, what jihad "is." 
peace, BrandonYusufToropov 14:22, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: * "Yes, there are bad guys [al-Qaeda] ..."   This is as far from NPOV as it gets. --Zeno of Elea 20:46, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How so? (Not that talk pages need NPOV, but it seems like a statement very few people would disagree with.) BrandonYusufToropov 20:49, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "it seems like a statement very few people would disagree with" That a particular POV is shared by a majority does not suddenly make it NPOV.  --Zeno of Elea 21:08, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't recall reading that a talk page has to be NPOV.  Looking at the history of this talk page I can see that is clearly not the case.Heraclius 20:48, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  BrandonYusufToropov is pushing his POV as the criterion for determining "what jihad is," in the talk page for the article on jihad. There is no single interpretation of Jihad, yet Brandon portrays his POV as the definitive view, while criticizing other POVs as the "twisted" views of "the bad guys." If this is his attitude in the talk page, then it is also the attitude that he will (and DOES) carry over into his edits of the article. Neither the talk page nor the article itself are appropriate places for POV pushing. --Zeno of Elea 21:07, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So you feel that it is wrong to label Al Qaeda as the "bad guys"?Heraclius 21:14, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is an encylopedia, it is not a religious inquisition.  --Zeno of Elea 21:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Anyways, about your edits, I think you should edit one section at a time instead of putting in a ton of unsourced information.  First of all, the intro should include the world Islamist terrorism because there has been much reverting in the history of this page and hopefully the inclusion of that word will make the anti-Islamic people a bit happier.  As for your section on history, you have to source much of what you wrote or it will read more like an originally-researched essay.Heraclius 20:54, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Continuing discussion 

message: I shall first address the "Treatment of Prisoners of War" section, as it originally appears in the article. I will do this point-by-point: 
*"The treatment of prisoners of war under Muhammad himself appears to have been notably more humane than that of later generations of Islamic leadership.
** This claim appears in the article without a source. It is also far from being common knowledge or obvious in any way. Thus, it must be treated as original research, which is of course inappropriate for a Wikipedia article. 
**It is also a POV statement, as not everyone will agree that Muhammad's treatment of POWs was humane; indeed, in the light of modern ethical principals, one cannot neutrally maintain that enslaving POWs (including children) for forced labor and sexual slavery (once again, including children) is a humane practice. Whether or not Muhammad's treatment of POWs was humane is a value judgement - the only NPOV way of dealing with this issue is to refrain from making any mention that Muhammad's treatment of POWs  was either humane or inhumane. Encylopedias are not in the business of making value judgements, they are in the business of stating objective facts.
*"According to accounts written by Muhammad and his followers, after the battle of Badr, some prisoners were executed for their earlier crimes in Mecca, but the rest were given options: They could convert to Islam and thus win their freedom; they could pay ransom and win their freedom; they could teach 10 Muslims to read and write and thus win their freedom."
**Again, I point out that no source is given for this information.
**This implies that the only option, under Islamic law, is to free POWs (either by making them convert, or by making them pay a ransom through monetary means or through educating Muslims). This is  a false implication, since the truth is that the it is up to the discretion of the Islamic state to decide whether or not a POW can be allowed to gain his or her freedom. Moreover, an important fact missing from the article is that POWs could also (at the discretion of the Islamist state) either by turned into slaves or could be turned into concubines (in the face of females). In addition, the article ommits any discussion about the question of WHO can be taken as  POW (only adult males? only adult males and females? The reality is that shar'iah allows the taking of POWs regardless of age or gender). Certain people want to suppress these facts only because they are embarrassing to liberal Muslims. Such embarrassment is not a reason for censoring factual and sourced information. It is a well documented fact that Muhammad and his followers engaged in such practices, and that  such practices continue to this day (indeed, it is well documented that mujahideen in Chechnya and Sudan enslave prisoners of war for the purposes of sexual slavery and the traficing of humans for monetary profits needed to support their causes. Furthermore, the supereme religious authority of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Ibn Baaz has issued statements clearly saying that "slavery is a part of jihad" and he called for the re-legalization of slavery, which was abolished in Saudi Arabia in the 1950s). 
**The statement also contains a serious error: it refers to "accounts written by Muhammad." Muslims believe that Muhammad was illiterate, which means that he could not have possibly written an account of anything. Furthermore, non-Muslims do not know of anything that can be definitevely said to have been written by Muhammad.    
* William Muir, a historian who is generally critical of Islam, wrote of this period: "In pursuance of Mahomet's commands the citizens of Medina and such of the refugees as possessed houses received the prisoners and treated them with much consideration. 'Blessings be on the men of Medina', said one of these prisoners in later days, 'they made us ride while they themselves walked; they gave us wheaten bread to eat when there was little of it, contenting themselves with dates." 
** The statement of one prisoner is annecdotal evidence from ONE prisoner. How about all the other POWs in the long and illustrious history of jihad?? What about the female children whom Muhammad turned into sex slaves and gave to his soldiers as spoils of war (to reward them for their military service)? Do we have any annecdotes from child prisoners who were enslaved and raped by Muhammad's men? Why should one man's annecdote be given precedence over the Islamic legal principals governing the treatment of POWs?  
** Annecdotal evidence it is not a subtitute for shar'iah rulings on the general legal principals concerning the treatment of prisoners of war. We should only be concerned with  the general legal principals of the treatment of POWs as outlined in the various interpretations of shar'iah. This is not a disccussion of specific historical events, and certainly not a collection of anecdotes from POWs; it is a a discussion of general legal principals which transcends time and place (i.e. we are interested in what shar'iah says about how both medieval and modern mujahideen are to treat POWs). For these treasons, I believe that the quotation from William Muir has no relevance and is, in fact, highly misleading and only conductive to a certain, biased POV.
As it is, this section of the article is riddled with a complete lack of sources, factual errors, a systematic and misleading omission of facts, and it commits the fallacy of using annecdotal evidence.      In order to address these problems with this section of the article, I have re-written it. Following is my edited version of the "Treatment of POWs" section:
:The legal principles governing the treatment of prisoners of war (POWs), in Islamic law (in all schools of Islamic jurisprudence), closely (and naturally) mirrors the accepted norms of the Arabian peninsula during Muhammad's time. Both male and female, and both adults and children, can be taken as prisoners of war, under Islamic law . In general, a POW can either be enslvaed , turned into a concubine (in the case of females) , or sold into slavery or cocubinage, or ransomed to the enemy in exchange for money or prisoners , all at the discretion of the Muslim military leader. Sometimes, the ransom took an educational dimension, where a literate POW could secure his or her freedom by teaching ten Muslims to read and write.
Heraclius has raised concerns (above) about the faithfreedom.org source which I have used here. He claims that the source is POV. Firstly, this is a logical fallacy known as argumentum ad hominem - saying that such and such website cannot be used a source because the authors of the source are "POV" is a case of arguing against the source instead of arguing against the content of the source. It is undeniable that sources cannot be discredited through the use of ad hominem arguments. And anyway, the actual content of the faithfreedom.org source is nothing more than a series of relevant exceprts from the tafsir of Maulana Maududi, an Islamic scholar who is considered who is considered to be a modernizer of Islam and whose works are widely popular in the Muslim world. By questioning the credability of the faithfreedom.org source, Heraclius has actually questioned the credability of Maulana Maududi. While it is true that many Muslims may disagree with certain aspects of Maududi's work, in this case Maududi is only reporting well-known juristic rulings of the five madhabs of shar'iah. Furthermore, the faithfreedom.org source is only included for redundancy and for convenience - the fact is that the other sources I have used also contain the same information, and thus the sources corroborate with eachother. What I have written in the POW section is completely factual, is rigorously supported with highly credable sources, and is also common knowledge amongst scholars of Islam and educated laymen. 
Please state your objections, concerns, or questions below, if you have any. I would especially like to hear from  Heraclius and BrandonYusufToropov who have been persistently reverting my edits to the POW section without reasonable cause, and upon whose request I have gone through the trouble of explaining my edits to the POW section in such excruciating detail. I hope that these two users will try to be more cooperative and will discuss their concerns instead of merely reverting anything that is embarrassing to their liberal sensibilities. --Zeno of Elea 03:28, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is the content of the site.  You are trying to linking to Muslim sources in the middle of a POV nightmare.  You are directing people to a fervently anti-Muslim POV site that is not exactly scholarly in content (Ali Sina often uses ad hominem attacks regardless of his semantic word play wit the definition of "human").  You do not see that as a problem?  Linking to a Martin Luther King's speeches on a KKK site would probably create similar problems ~_~ gren 18:05, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I did not say that the Muir quote needs to be balanced with a similarly flawed quote. The Muir quote is anecdotal evidence, which is different from objective facts about legal principals in Islam. --Zeno of Elea 04:22, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Treatment of Prisoners of War 

message: ::::* Zeno has been editing since only June 16.
::::* Zeno's very first edit was here on Jihad.
::::* Zeno has a fixation on Yuber's work, because ...
::::* Only two days after Zeno's very first edit, he filed this  comment on an RfA, which is odd for a newcomer in a couple of different respects. My attention was drawn to this remark:
:::::*In the 3 days between 11 Jun 2005 and 13 Jun 2005, Yuber made 4 reverts of the article.
::::* Please consider those dates closely, editors with conscience. Not only does this new user Zeno immediately start in on the Jihad article, but Zeno also gives clear evidence of having watched the article closely, and of already being familiar with 3RR, and of disapproving of a given user's conduct, all before even making a single edit on WP.
::::* After only two weeks as a user, Zeno not only knows what a sockpuppet is (I certainly didn't at two weeks)...
::::* ... and not only accuses me of being one ....
::::* ... but also knows the names of three specific editors to throw into the accusation!
::::* Note also that, at just two weeks old, Zeno has developed the odd habit of insisting that any form of disagreement constitutes a personal attack, and lectures editors on (supposed) WP policy.
::::* So --- does Zeno remind us of anyone we've run into before? BrandonYusufToropov 22:52, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, BrandonYusufToropov's uncivil behavior on a vast range of discussion pages, is becoming increasingly disruptive. Just recently, he launced a hateful personal attack against me on the Muhammad articles talk page, because I commited the 'crime' to suggest that a painting created by an islamic Persian painter should be included. A painting that has been included on other pages, such as the Buraq article for many months without any controversy. His above rant, designed to throw mud at yet another editor, is equally unacceptable. The reason discussion pages are here is so that we can discuss the articles. They are not here, in order to provide space for editors like BrandonYusufToropov to make personal attacks and remarks against Wikipedians who doesn't agree with his personal ideas about the islamic religion. Also, even if Zeno has previously edited using other accounts (I am not saying that he is), that doesn't in itself mean that he has violated any of Wikipedias policies, or done anything wrong in any way. I suggest that BrandonYusufToropov provide evidence that the users he is attacking is violating any of Wikipedias policies, or stop his disruptive and insulting behavior. -- Karl Meier 07:23, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Now that you mention it, I've actually spend a couple of hours collecting some diffs regarding these personal attacks/remarks against me and other users. If the situation continue I will indeed file an RfC re these issues. -- Karl Meier 17:23, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

text: "I strongly oppose any attempt to build this article around the hate speech of handpicked extremists, Islamic and otherwise"  My sources are six in number (so far), all are published sources written by demonstrably Wikipedia:Reliable sources. All sources corroborate with eachother. It is ludicrous of you to suggest that esteemed academics such as Annemarie Schimmel and Patricia Crone, and classical Muslim scholars such as Ibn Kathir, Imam Shafi, and Abu Yusuf (d. 798 CE), as well as esteemed and highly influencial modern Muslim scholars such as Maududi, are all represntative of a fringe, extremist view on the subject of POWs and traditional shariah, when all sources are agree on a few simple facts that I have claimed. All of these sources agree on the simple facts about the treatment of POWs in traditional Islamic law, as characterized by the four madhabs. When all of these relibale, published sources are combined and shown to corroborate, they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these are indeed the objective facts about traditional Islamic law. You have not provided a single reliable source in your attempts to discredit the claim  made in these sources. The only thing you have offered so far is incivility, hyperbole, and a baseless and blind denial of documented facts. Until you can provide reliable, published sources to support your claims about POWs, your statements on the subject can only be considered as an unsourced POV. --Zeno of Elea 09:40, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions I would like to review again 

message: Okay, I will discuss these issues in the formal channels.
In the meantime, Person Who Is Certainly Not a Sockpupppet, I strongly oppose any attempt to build this article around the hate speech of handpicked extremists, Islamic and otherwise. ("Scholar X says you must pray five times a day; Scholar X also says babies must be placed on pikes; placing babies on pikes is therefore an essential element of Jihad.")
I predict ....
* huge, expansive waves of non-consensus editing that have the effect of suddenly injecting yards of partisan political content ...
* followed by spasms of anonymous and obscene vandalism....
* followed by longwinded declamations in support of civility. 
But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people will start editing a little at a time, using this page to gain consensus for each new concept or source introduced. What, though, are the odds of that? BrandonYusufToropov 08:54, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "I strongly oppose any attempt to build this article around the hate speech of handpicked extremists, Islamic and otherwise"  My sources are six in number (so far), all are published sources written by demonstrably Wikipedia:Reliable sources. All sources corroborate with eachother. It is ludicrous of you to suggest that esteemed academics such as Annemarie Schimmel and Patricia Crone, and classical Muslim scholars such as Ibn Kathir, Imam Shafi, and Abu Yusuf (d. 798 CE), as well as esteemed and highly influencial modern Muslim scholars such as Maududi, are all represntative of a fringe, extremist view on the subject of POWs and traditional shariah, when all sources are agree on a few simple facts that I have claimed. All of these sources agree on the simple facts about the treatment of POWs in traditional Islamic law, as characterized by the four madhabs. When all of these relibale, published sources are combined and shown to corroborate, they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these are indeed the objective facts about traditional Islamic law. You have not provided a single reliable source in your attempts to discredit the claim  made in these sources. The only thing you have offered so far is incivility, hyperbole, and a baseless and blind denial of documented facts. Until you can provide reliable, published sources to support your claims about POWs, your statements on the subject can only be considered as an unsourced POV. --Zeno of Elea 09:40, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: I predict

message: "At any rate, I am unconvinced of the relevance of the treatment of POWs to the Jihad article. As the article stands, Jihad is about the struggle proscribed in Islam, and the use of the term by various groups, not about Islam's teaching on war.--Tznkai 19:10, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Try it from another angle. We start with the word Jihad and explain what it means. (derivation 0) we then go onto how its used (derviation 1) we can then describe what those things it describes is (derivation 2) then you want us to discuss something that is relevannt to things that are described as "Jihads" exhaustivly. Alright. Jihad (derviation 0) used to discribe Struggle (dervition 1) personal spiritual growth (Derivation 2) Pyschology of religion and faith (derivation 3). Do you want to have an exhaustive description of Islam's teachings on the pyschology of faith and religion as well? Once we go out to far, the article gets bloated, and its time to switch. Going out to three would imply a rather exhaustive list of things we have to write aobut. Jihad, struggle, holy war, every jihad ever declared. I'm not saying we should remove wars from the article. Is every war that a muslim particpates in by definition a Jihad? Are there signifcant diffrences between Islamic teachings during a Jihad in any context and their code of conduct in war normally? No reason to reivent the wheel here.--Tznkai 22:32, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Do you want to have an exhaustive description of Islam's teachings on the pyschology of faith and religion as well?"  Since when does "Jihad" mean "psychology of faith and religion????" No one is going to search for "Jihad" when looking for information about "psychology of faith and religion." Please get a grip on reality. We all understand that Islamic word for holy war is derived from a general term that means "struggle." Indeed, war is a struggle that encompases more than just fighting. "Jihad" can also mean something other than holy war, it can also mean "general stuggle." The meaning of Jihad can be dichomotized into two distinc meanings: "Jihad" can either mean a "general struggle" or it can mean a "holy war." Your theory is that if we discuss the "holy war" aspect in depth, then we must also discuss every kind of struggle that exists. This theory is clearly not a rational point of view.  Just because Islamic word for "holy war" (i.e. "Jihad") is derived from a word that reffers to "general struggle" does not mean that every type of struggle on Earth has to be discussed. We can indeed discuss the "general struggle" meaning of Jihad in great detail, in this article. There are already two sections dedicated to the "spiritual jihad" issue, these sections are called "as a general struggle" and "as a general rule."  Again, I point out to you that common sense dictates that an encylopedia article about Jihad should include a description of "holy war" as this is what is usualy meant by the word "Jihad." Those who have have significant exposure to Muslim countries are well aware of the fact that when the average Muslim says "Jihad" it is usually in reference to holy war. Moreover, this is English Wikipedia and when the English speaking people say "Jihad" it is usually in reference to holy war. The global usage of the word "Jihad" naturally predominates towards the "holy war" definition and not the "general struggle" definition. English speaking people searching the word "Jihad" are not likely to be looking for information about a "general struggle." It is trivial to see that the subject of Jihad will inevitably involve the subject of Islamic holy war. It will also involve a discussion of the subject of Jihad as an "inner struggle" and a "general struggle," however it would be rather contrarian (to say the least) for the article to ommit the subject of holy war, and instead provide some sort of general article about general struggles in general. Again, I point out that the long-standing historical consensus on this article is that a major component of this article is the  subject of "warfare in Islam." --Zeno of Elea 23:06, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to Tznkai's Argument 

message: There has been a great deal of ciriticsm of Maulana Maududi. The ahistorical appologists have called him a "Wahabi," have accused Maududi of be uneducated in Islam, and have shown a profound lack of understanding of the logical fallacy of argumentum ad hominem ("arguing against the source"). What exactly is all the controversy about, then? What are these quotes from Maududi that have caused such chaos on this article? 
Here are the quotes:
:According to the Qur'an a woman who has been captured by force falls in the category of a slave girl (kaniz). And because the Qur'an confines the use of force to the fighting (qital) in the way of God, thus according to the Qur'an a slave girl is that woman who falls in the hands of Muslims as a prisoner during the course of war waged in the way of God. (Maulana Maududi, Rasa'il wa Masa'il 3rd edition, Vol. III, p.102).
:"There is no limit to their numbers [i.e., the number of prisoners enslaved as concubines by one person] (Tafsir of the Qur'an by Maulana Maududi, Vol. IV, exegesis of verse 33:52).
So Maududi's only claim here is that female POWs can be enslaved and used for sex. I call into evidence two facts. One, the Qur'an itself prescribes laws about prisoners of war that have been enslaved as concubines. These slave-girls are called  Ma malakat aymanukum in the Qur'an. The Wikipedia article on Ma malakat aymanukum leaves no doubt about the fact that Maududi was not reporting some strange, minority view, but was merely explaining what is commonly known to all scholars of Islam. The second fact that I call into evidence is a neutral, highly respected academic source that unequivocally confirms Maududi's claims:
:Slavery was not abolished by the Koran, but ... only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war can become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim. (Annemarie Schimmel. Islam: An Introduction. Albani: State University of New York Press, 1992, p. 67)
Thus all of the arguments against Maududi are moot. The world-reknown academic scholar of Islam, Annemarie Schimmel, confirms the Maududi quote about slave-girls and POWs. The critics who have opposed all of this information have totally avoided any discussion of this quote by Annemarie Schimmel, even though the quote is right in front of us all. Either both Annemarie Schimmel and Maududi are terribly mistaken, or both are correct on the same point. It would be outrageous to deny the significance of a source as reliable as Annemarie Schimmel (see WP:Reliable sources). Those who are still trying to argue against the factual accuracy of my claims should take note that the Maududi quote and the Schimmel quote, as well as the Wikipedia article on Ma malakat aymanukum, all say exactly the same (not to mention my other published sources, which also confirm the slavery issue). I have provided multiple sources that say the same thing, and arguing against the personal character of just one of these sources does not constitute any sort of reasonable argument. --Zeno of Elea 22:41, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding Objections to the Maududi Tafsir Excerpts on POWs