Talk:Divinization (Christian)

message: Richard wrote: "It seems to me that if we have a section titled 'Western rejection of the Orthodox theosis', then we should have a clear exposition on whether the West does or does not actually reject Orthodox theosis."  LoveMonkey wrote: "I have been trying to keep the section Western rejection of the Orthodox theosis FOR MONTHS NOW, under that title in the article and have 2 other editors from time to time remove it. Esoglou and Leadwind."
Leadwind and Esoglou have refrained from correcting that heading at the cost of edit-warring with the single editor who insists on keeping it as it is (see #POV subsection heading above); but now would seem to be a good time for the fresh eyes looking at this article to examine whether the heading corresponds to reality of a section dealing not with theosis but with hesychasm.  Esoglou (talk) 12:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Time to draw attention again to the question whether the heading "Western rejection of Orthodox theosis" corresponds to the content of the section?  Esoglou (talk) 21:21, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed section heading 

message: In talking with a number of Catholics there is a significant discomfort with this concept of becoming God or gods. It appears to fly in the face of monotheism. Is anyone aware of a scholars discussion of this discomfort within Christianity and how it might be appropriately addressed in the article? Thoughts? -StormRider 05:23, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I wish I could answer your question directly, but I've got this: Angels are gods. They're eternal beings that live in heaven and have supernatural powers. By many accounts, they are morally perfect (unable to sin). For all intents and purposes, they're gods. My Bible refers to the angel who comes to Samson's parents as a god. So angels are gods. It doesn't take much to be a god. When Paul survived snakebite, people thought he was a god. Meanwhile, Christian saints are eternal beings that live in heaven and have supernatural powers. They're practically gods themselves. You can even gain access to their power through statues of them. In what way are the saint not gods, like angels are? I think it's just an issue of semantics. It's been a long time since Western civilization has used the word "god" for the eternal, supernatural beings that live in heaven, but that's what the ancients called them. Leadwind (talk) 00:25, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: At Leadwind, the god term is "like God in that his nature is everlasting and unending" meaning that when we are reconciled with God we become "like" him in that we are eternal uncreated-like in being unending. Theosis is like Christ, created but (uncreated) unending, for Christ is uncreated in essence where creatures are created (before Christ was born in the old testament he was called the Angel of the Lord). God is the only thing uncreated in essence. As for what the Catholics believe thing, well yeah Esoglou and others from the Byzantine Rite, Unionist (yeah as if their have dibs on Byzantium) or the Greek Catholic etc, etc, where not raised "Roman Catholic". They where raised in Eastern Orthodox countries for the most part and where immersed in Eastern Orthodox culture and their church keeps these things while claiming alliance with the Pope. Thing is, what the big fat elephant in the room that no one will talk about is that if everyone "unites" the RCC way or if the RCC stops pursing ecumenism and at the snap of their fingers the RCC out of the Vatican can by means of authority make compliance with the West and it's practices and theology THE RULE. Of course everybody makes promises and they would never do bad things like that. Like that or get our Clergy to sign off on a agreement making them capitulate and promising them solders to fight Islam. Solders that never came but then that's nothing compared to saying they would never take Orthodox property again but then force VERY LARGE scale wars in Greece Turkey and the middle East to take our churches from us. Ah the Crimean War. Allot to overcome and ignoring those things will not make them go away. Let alone the Balkins. LoveMonkey (talk) 01:41, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Love, I apologize for being dense, but I don't understand how your edit was germane to the topic of this section. Would you care to address the topic? -StormRider 02:02, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

text: Rider there is much to the division much to the difference and those differences are there and not strictly based on words or languages or historical events, its rather a mix of all. My point is- When you say most Catholics you talk too: that would be valid as most don't speak Greek (i.e. understand the Greek terms theosis, theoria, etc). Most don't understand the difference between the two theologies and would probably say there is no difference. Until you start pointing out this stuff..that is. I'd dare say that the whole idea of seeing God or obtaining gnosis scares the Holy daylights out of them. And we won't even touch that there is no such thing as "hell" in the bible.. LoveMonkey (talk) 02:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

text: AT Rider this book  Starts on page 28. LoveMonkey (talk) 19:12, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discomfort with the language 

message: Is there a reason why the Westminster definition of "Deification" in orthodoxy is being repeatedly deleted and rejected by Esoglou?
The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology contains the following definition of what "deification" is for Orthodoxy:
Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is 'made in the image and likeness of God.' ... It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both OT and NT (e.g. Ps. 82 (81).6; II Peter 1.4), and it is essentially the teaching both of St Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption (cf. Rom. 8.9—17; Gal. 4.5—7), and the Fourth Gospel (cf. 17.21—23).The language of II Peter is taken up by St Irenaeus, in his famous phrase, 'if the Word has been made man, it is so that men may be made gods' (Adv. Haer V, Pref.), and becomes the standard in Greek theology. In the fourth century, St. Athanasius repeats Irenaeus almost word for word, and in the fifth century St Cyril of Alexandria says that we shall become sons 'by participation' (Greek methexis). Deification is the central idea in the spirituality of St. Maximus the Confessor, for whom the doctrine is the corollary of the Incarnation: 'Deification, briefly, is the encompassing and fulfillment of all times and ages,' ... and St. Symeon the New Theologian at the end of the tenth century writes, 'He who is God by nature converses with those whom he has made gods by grace, as a friend converses with his friends, face to face.' ...
I fail to see the reason why this addition continues to be deleted.
Much appreciation and thanks.
:It has not been deleted.  Since it concerns the definition of what "deification" is for Orthodoxy, it was placed in the section headed "Eastern Orthodox theology", where it belongs.  Esoglou (talk) 19:56, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Westminster definition of Deification rejected? 

message: The content of the section about "vision of God" is unrelated to that of the cited source.  To reflect what the source says of "vision of God" (theoria), it should be rewritten as follows:
According to Hierotheos Vlachos, divinization, also called theosis, "is the participation in the Uncreated grace of God" and "is identified and connected with the theoria (vision) of the Uncreated Light". "Theoria is the vision of the glory of God. Theoria is identified with the vision of the uncreated Light, the uncreated energy of God, with the union of man with God, with man's theosis. This vision, by which faith is attained, is what saves: "Faith comes by hearing the Word and by experiencing theoria (the vision of God). We accept faith at first by hearing in order to be healed, and then we attain to faith by theoria, which saves man." It is also one of the means by which Christians came to know the Trinity: "The disciples of Christ acquired the knowledge of the Triune God in theoria (vision of God) and by revelation."  Esoglou (talk) 07:42, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section on "Vision of God" 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: A reader contacted Wikimedia :ticket:2020012210006789 requesting an edit to this article. I responded that I could not make an edit on their behalf but I would be happy to post the suggestion to this page:S Philbrick(Talk) 19:58, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested edit