Talk:Plastic Pressure Pipe Systems/2007 Archive

message: Plastic pressure pipe systems is a very niche industry and there are only a handful of people in the world that understand the industry commercially, technically and scientifically. To my knowledge there are no end to end publications of the industry apart from the ones referenced here that are as comprehensive. There is very little that has been published about this industry.
Additional information has been sourced from manufacturers and distributors websites with their permission. With links to their sites.
Myself, Mike Greig and Dr Tarik Al-shemmeri are in this handful of people and have been in the industry since the 1960s. I am now retired but still consult to the industry.
I'm promoting this article to other people in the industry so that it will have the very best content. I have merely put up the bare bones and I’m trying to encourage others to add to it.
Therefore, please can I encourage you to discuss your edits as some edits have been made without much thought for the intention here and have shown no understanding of the industry or the lack of published material about the industy.
Thank you. --Davidacarr 15:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's very good that information has been sourced, and the article is promising, but Wikipedia does have particular standards for references. The publication details need to be available for the references. We cannot "trade" web site references for help; web site references appear according to their direct relevance. However, if the reference is to publications on web sites we can and should include links. The web sites removed did not seem to meet Wikipedia:External links, especially the link to Staffordshire University, which has no relevance except that one of the authors of a reference works there. Therefore I would argue that all the sites should be removed. However, these are supposed to be consensus decisions, so please feel free to disagree and produce arguments for their inclusion (please reference Wikipedia:External links for reasons for inclusion). Notinasnaid 16:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing This Article 

message: Note that this article seems to have been the subject of a copy/paste move, to reverse a rename, . If an article needs to be moved never use copy/paste please, as it breaks the history. 
The earlier history can be viewed on . Notinasnaid 14:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copy/paste move, earlier history 

message: Please do not removed the  tag until the problem it identifies has been fixed. I also removed a redundant heading line which has no place in a Wikipedia article: the style of opening is standardised. (Comments?) Notinasnaid 16:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pleased to see we now have piping and plumbing, and the tag is removed. I took out the nonexistent category "pipe". Notinasnaid 23:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're welcome :-)  Bernard S. Jansen 23:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening 

message: Let's try and work together on the definition. An article should start with a sentence that includes and defines the subject in a simple way which is accessible to the general reader who has no idea what specialist area is involved. I had put in place "Plastic Pressure Pipe Systems, systems for carrying fluid in plastic pipes, have many uses: some of the most common include piping to transport drinking water, waste water, chemicals, gases, heating and cooling fluids, foodstuffs, ultra-pure liquids and slurries."  Evidently, this is factually incorrect since it has been reverted. Please work with me to find a suitable substitute; this is especially important if the subject is not well understood. 
I may not have the technical knowledge, but I hope I can bring to bear a little experience of Wikipedia's policies, guidelines and preferred style. (Though I don't claim to be an expert and am not an arbiter). Does that make us a team? Notinasnaid 16:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to disagree, with respect. The sentence is in clear English but it does not include a definition: it launches straight into uses without defining what the pipes are. I would like to add "systems for carrying fluid in plastic pipes" as the definition. Is this right or wrong? Notinasnaid 23:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: By the way, I really would prefer it if you would leave the editorial comments in place until the matter is actually resolved; the intention is to draw the attention of other editors to this discussion. Notinasnaid 23:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: But gas is a fluid. Being the standard name is good, but since this is not written for the industry, we can't assume the reader will know what we are talking about. Notinasnaid 23:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok, since discussion has tried up (which is a pity, because more people discussing brings a better consensus), and acknowleding that "fluid" seems a troublesome word, I am going to add "systems for carrying fluid (gases and liquids) in plastic pipes". More discussion of course welcome. Notinasnaid 10:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition 

message: I'd like to get the discussion rolling on the references. References need publication data, so interested parties can verify the facts in the article. Without publication details the whole thing unravels. Can we get them? Notinasnaid 00:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good, we have an ISBN for one. Two to go. Notinasnaid 09:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I am not disputing the quality of the references, just trying to get this article to follow best Wikipedia practice: because it is so nearly a good article. One ISBN still required. I have updated to use Wiki citation templates. I am leaving the two company links since they are relevant and valuable, but I am removing the link to Staffordshire University. There is no justification for linking to the University of the author of a reference in this way. However, I have made a wiki-link in the references directly to the Staffordshire University article, which in turn has the University URL if required. Notinasnaid 22:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: On the references, I feel it may be useful to mention one more thing, since so many contributors to this article are new. Wikipedia expects the references to support everything in the article. So it is very important to make sure that you are not writing additional information from personal expert knowledge. Wikipedia's threshold for inclusion is "verifiability, not truth". Notinasnaid 22:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you for starting the discussion. Please refer to Wikipedia:External links for the reasons for including links. Please also note that I added a "Wiki link" to Staffordshire University into the reference; there can be no justification for having an external link too in this situation. Further discussion welcome, of course. Notinasnaid 23:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Do discussion seems to have taken place, and I don't think the article should be left in limbo forever, so I will delete it again. Obviously if a good rationale is found, it should be added back. Notinasnaid 10:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I see the editor has added it again. I don't feel the link belongs, but at the same time it's not important enough for further efforts. Notinasnaid 03:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: 66.76.52.131 seems to be a vandal, does anyone know how to bar that ip address, page now restored. Please discuss edits --Davidacarr 22:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This IP had just emerged from a 24-hour block for vandalism, and started again. I have posted a request on Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism that a longer block be considerered. Notinasnaid 23:01, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandal 

message: I would like to share some ways in which, in my opinion, further progress could be made towards a good article.
* Article title: should be renamed in sentence case, that is "Plastic pressure pipe systems" (but please, not by a copy/paste move as before).
* Wikilinks: a few more well chosen links to other relevant articles would be good. (These should be to different articles, as further links to the same articles is not Wikipedia style).
* Writing style: the article relies very much on bulleted lists. Wikipedia style is to use prose paragraphs wherever this is reasonable, and I think it could usefully be done in this case.
* Recruitment of more active editors and more effective work towards Wikipedia:Consensus through discussion. It is normal for the discussion of an article to exceed the volume of the article itself many times.
If anyone would like to ask what I mean, please use my talk page. Notinasnaid 03:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible improvements for the future 

message: Why has the article become so unstable? Please shed some light on this? --Davedge 20:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam#Time to shine a light on Plastic Pressure Pipe Systems. Vandalism to the WikiProject Spam talk page drew attention to both the massive talk page deletions here and the inappropriate commercial links on the article page. --A. B. (talk) 21:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The links are not in appropriate as the core article is about a product which can only be commercial. The external links are the only source of strategic information about this type of product. I have looked at the links and they provide valuble information about the subject matter, I will therefore re instate if nobody objects with 2 days. --86.134.114.50 11:42, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I object. So do others. Refer to this discussion: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam#Time to shine a light on Plastic Pressure Pipe Systems. --A. B. (talk) 18:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  whats happening to this article? 

message: Removed the see also BSP pipe threadeds no relevance to the article --Ccknowles 08:56, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I deleted one of the ELs (with my reasoning in one of the above sections).  Do you need any help with restoring information from the history? ---J.S  (T/C/WRE) 19:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up