Talk:United States and state terrorism/Archive 9

message: ===Restore to Allegations of state terrorism by the United States===
#Tom Harrison Talk 13:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Tom harrison, weren't you accused by User:NuclearUmpf, along with MONGO, Morton, and Tbeatty of regularly e-mailing each other offline? 69.152.137.187 23:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I havent a clue about whether people email each other, but the above canvasing is certainly inappropriate.  Dman727 01:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: #Tom Harrison Talk 13:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Restore to ''Allegations of state terrorism by the United States''

message: # Divestment 18:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Keep ''State terrorism by the United States''

message: #Delete, (first choice)--MONGO 20:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Do something else

message: Is this inappropriate canvassing?          
I also object to the reference to "the nationalists on the page," which seems to use people's affiliations to discredit their views. Tom Harrison Talk 16:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Tom harrison, weren't you accused by User:NuclearUmpf, along with MONGO, Morton, and Tbeatty of regularly e-mailing each other offline? 69.152.137.187 23:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I havent a clue about whether people email each other, but the above canvasing is certainly inappropriate.  Dman727 01:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: Much of the material in the extremely long section on Luis Posada Carriles should be moved to that article and replaced with a summary. No need to repeat the entire article here.
The sections "Definition of the term terrorism" and "Application of United States Government's own definitions" should be merged, same topic.Ultramarine 12:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. When this article becomes too big, then we can look to trim and merge. Right now its fits in well with the article, and it does not go in great details as the main article does. It should cover enough information about the subject in this article. After this article is expanded and size/space becomes and issue, then we can do trimming/merging. The focus should be on expanding, and adding more and better sources.Giovanni33 16:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unreassonable that a single person gets more than all other sections. Size has nothing to with the second merger.Ultramarine 18:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then, expand the others. Not all sections need be the same size. It depends on the amount of information that is available. I'm flexible with cutting, but I'm saying this is not the time to do so. This article overall is rather small, given the subject matter.Giovanni33 18:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving material 

message: This is to discuss the latest changes and any on going disagreements. I kept most of the many changes, and attempted a compromise synthesis between Ultramarine's edits, and edits I wanted to incorporate. We can discuss disagreements here, hopefully, instead of edit waring again. One part that was reference, in which I removed was this: "Mossadeq's regime had become increasingly autocratic. When Mossadeq's support in the legislative body had dwindled..." I felt it was too off topic because thisis not about the nature of the regimes, or their internal politics. Its too off topic. I understand you want to make the argument that the US sent the CIA in to topple the govt because it allegedly feared a communist take over. That would be ok, stated alone, and then with a countering pov. The details about the nature of the government of Iran at that time are best left for the main article. This article should really just focus on US actions.Giovanni33 02:47, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then the statements about oil nationalization should be removed, as well as claims of being democratically elected.Ultramarine 08:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Why was the false statement "The paper cites The New Yorker Magazine's investigative reports which states that as of at least 1996 the United States has military commando units operating inside Iran."? Ultramarine 08:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought that I provided that in talk earlier. The paper references Hersh S., work in the New Yorker, which did a series on the question. I provided that link above, and it does support these claims. I agree that the Asia Times does not adequately cite that work, and we should properly cite it by adding in the actual article it references in the Asia Times piece.Giovanni33 08:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

text: To be clear, I'm not opposed to you stating the US line about fear of communism, etc., and I think oil nationalization and being democratically elected are both important facts that should be included. What I am opposed to is trying to get into details of the internal nature of the govt., which as you admit, is rather complex. The account you gave does not do that justice, is incomplete, and is just one pov. To treat the subject well, would require too much space and then it gets off the topic. There is a balance between too little info and too much info. I want to stick to the most important facts that are directly pertinent to the issue.Giovanni33 08:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, your link above did not, there was no mentioning of this claim. There was no mention of the New Yorker at all in the Asian Times article. Regading Iran, it is a POV violation that only your side of story should be presenented. You make claims regarding the internal nature of the gov and the reasons for the coup, while simply deleting the sourced views you dislike. Unacceptable.Ultramarine 09:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a little tired now to go back and look for it, but I recall finding that link that the article references (it does reference the New Yorker by means of the author's series of investigative pieces, which are published in the New Yorker). If I'm wrong, then we can correct that, and would have been able to if some editors here simply allowed us to have progress instead of edit waring on sight. About the reasons for the coup, as I said, I'm ok with presenting all claims as to the reasons, but going into the nature of the governments interal politics in the way you did with that source, is not appropriate for the reasons I've stated above. Instead, just find a source that says, something like "The US felt a need to intervene internally, and overthrow the regime because...." I'm fine with that. I hope you see the difference between that and what you put in there, and the reasons why that difference is important.Giovanni33 09:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the Asia Times never mentions the New Yorker. Please give a quote here if continuing this claim, otherwise it will be corrected as you propose. Regarding Iran, I have already given a source that mentions the fear of a communist overthrow. If for some reason the governments interal politics should be excluded, then the incorrect claim regarding democratically elected is also out. No double standard please.Ultramarine 09:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We seem to be talking pass each other now, and have a failture to communicate. I"m not sure if I should repeat myself here, or just wait a bit for you to re-read what I wrote above. There is no double standard. The source you gave said a lot more than just the fear of communism, which was what I objected to. The claim in the Asia Times is accurate, as it cites its author's work, which is in the New Yorker, as I showed before. So, maybe the text should be corrected to state that instead, and then link the article from the New Yorker. These things can be fixed, instead of completely deleted.Giovanni33 09:30, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the Asian Times never make any statement regarding New Yorker or Commandos in Iran in 1996. Again, give a quote if continuing this. Nor does the link you gave mention this. Again, give a quote here. Regarding Iran, deleting a source for having more info than what is quoted is just strange, all sources usually have much more info than what we quote them on. Explain why the article should state "democratically elected" but not opposing views. That is a double standard.Ultramarine 09:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, lets go back to the sources, again, and see what they say. Again, you keep saying it never makes a statment regarding the New Yorker, and I keep telling you that while it doesn't mention the New Yorker, it does so indirectly by mentioning the author of the New Yorker Seymore Hersh, who did a series of published works in the New Yorker about this, and those claims are supported there. This is like the 4th time I keep saying this, and you just keep repeating that it doesn't mention the New Yorker. Well, then, I agreed that we should modify the text accordingly. Lets stop beating this dead horse, and just look at the sources I provded and fix the text, instead of deleting the whole thing. About it being strange to delete "too much info," I see nothing strange. Its a question of giving undue weight. You had quoted a large section that presented a particular pov regarding several complex events taking place in the government. Again, two problems with doing that. The source did not make the argument that this interpretation was the reason the US orchestrated a coup there. So, not only does it give undue weight to this pov, it is misleading and a violation of Syn to use it to suggest a connection to the US actions. What would be valid, for balance, is a US govt. source that says its own reasons for taking this action, i.e. 'fear of communism, etc." That would be perfectly fine. The other stuff is best saved for the article about that other subject. I hope I make myself clear because I feel I keep repeating myself.Giovanni33 17:29, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, no none of your sources mention commandos in Iran in 1996. I quote from my source "As domestic conditions deteriorated, however, Mossadeq's populist style grew more autocratic. In August 1952, the Majlis acceded to his demand for full powers in all affairs of government for a six-month period. These special powers were subsequently extended for a further six-month term. He also obtained approval for a law to reduce, from six years to two years, the term of the Senate (established in 1950 as the upper house of the Majlis), and thus brought about the dissolution of that body. Mossadeq's support in the lower house of the Majlis (also called the Majlis) was dwindling, however, so on August 3, 1953, the prime minister organized a plebiscite for the dissolution of the Majlis, claimed a massive vote in favor of the proposal, and dissolved the legislative body. The administration of President Harry S Truman initially had been sympathetic to Iran's nationalist aspirations. Under the administration of President Dwight D. Eisenhower, however, the United States came to accept the view of the British government that no reasonable compromise with Mossadeq was possible and that, by working with the Tudeh, Mossadeq was making probable a communist-inspired takeover. Mossadeq's intransigence and inclination to accept Tudeh support, the Cold War atmosphere, and the fear of Soviet influence in Iran also shaped United States thinking."Ultramarine 17:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess I'll just keep copying and pasting, from above, since you keep denying, and I keep showing you. The New Yorker article is real: The Iran Plans By Seymour M. Hersh, The New Yorker, 17 April 2006 Issue [22] If your argument is that we should add a better source, or add this New Yorker source, I'm fine with that. I would also like to add the informative sources on the coup, above, which also allege state terrorism. Regarding the claim of comandos in Iran see: "Seymour Hersh: U.S. Conducting Covert Operations in Iran For Possible Military Strike. We speak with investigative journalist Seymour Hersh who is reporting that the Pentagon has already secretly sent in forces to Iran to identify possible future military targets. According to Hersh, the president has authorized the Pentagon to send secret commando forces into as many as ten nations in the Middle East and South Asia. The secret forces could potentially carry out combat operations or even terrorist acts." Source provided above.Giovanni33 04:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I take it that you now accept the description of the fear of communism in operation Ajax since you voice no opposition. Regarding commandos in Iran, we could state something like: "According to an interview with Seymour Hersh in the New Yorker in 2005, who quotes an anonynmous source, the US has commandos in Iran since 2004 conducting secret reconnaissance missions. An anonymous editor in Democracy Now! quotes this and and further states 'The secret forces could potentially carry out combat operations or even terrorist acts.'"Ultramarine 07:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The description of fear of communism, is fine, if its quoted with a source, and its kept to that point. Your attribution to the claims of comandos is almost ok, except that you overdo it with 'anonymous editor" which I think introduces bias. Saying, that this is decribed as...by Democracy in an interview with Seymore Hersh," is good enough. We want to be accurate but also careful about using certain words with a certain frequency that have the effect (intended or not) to convey through implication; Over doing the word "claims" is another example of things to avoid that introduce bias, as you will notice that our version differ on this account too. Hopefully, we can come to an agreement about these minor linguistic issues.Giovanni33 07:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The connection between this possible future action and "state terrorism" is extremely tenous. Exactly what text do you propose? Ultramarine 09:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ajax hardly merits classification as state sponsored terrorism.  The Tudeh were a political party - it's completely absurd to call them a "right-wing terrorist organization."  Yes, they were technically illegal in Iran, but the Iranian government was known to still cooperate with the party and no government had ever classified them as a terrorist organization, nor did anyone view them as a terrorist organization in spirit - they were an organization with political goals that the U.S. utilized against a political state entity and that Mossadegh at times used to quell dissent because he was clearly losing his control over the nation.  Ajax was never intended to cause terror, but rather to encourage popular sentiment against the Mossadegh government leading to its downfall. Have you actually read the Kinzer book?  Kinzer doesn't even come close to classifying the action as state terrorism.  A more scholarly work on the subject is Mohammad Mosaddeq and the 1953 Coup in Iran edited by Mark J. Gasiorowski and Malcolm Byrne.  Kinzer's research is okay, but not as accurate as what one gets from scholarly texts not directed toward popular consumption. --Strothra 04:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes

message: Is there  a clear definition that differentiates terrorism and acts of war? For example, a Palestinian terrorist that targets Israeli civillians is rightfully called so, but if the Palestinian attacks an Israeli soldier or military outpost shouldn't it be classified as an Act of War and not terrorism?Arnabdas 19:42, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are no clear definitions of what constitutes terrorism at all. For example, the British government defines terrorism in 1974 as as "the use of violence for political ends", a definition which would include all war. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 16:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Terrorism vs Act of War

message: Giovanni33 has restored a factually incorrect text containing many details not in the claimed source and also deleted much sourced information and restored this with an unsourced text. Explain why.Ultramarine 18:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you would be a little more pacient you would have seen I was working on it, and had restored the update on Posadas. That section is already longer than other sections and it has its own articles. We don't need to expand that section needlessly.Giovanni33 18:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the source of the first paragraph you reverted. The text you restored has no relationship to the source and is longer than the corrected text.Ultramarine 18:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm if I'm wrong about that my apologies. Please restore that part then, and I'll look at it later. Just please keep it to essential details. Thanks.Giovanni33 18:50, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would prefer that you restore it to avoid any false impressions regarding 3RR.Ultramarine 18:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked and you are fine to restore that. I'm a bit busy at work now. I don't want it to appear that this is not a colaborative effort, and with you restoring it, I feel better that this will be seen as the case, and therefore others will model it.Giovanni33 19:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will restore it tommorrow when I make other edits consecutively to avoid any false impression to outside editors.Ultramarine 19:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restoration of factual inaccruacy and unsourced text 

message: This was added:
:However, regarding human rights violations by the Contras, the Court in its voted on statements "Finds that the United States of America, by producing in 1983 a manual entitled Operaciones sicologicas en guerra de guerrillas, and disseminating it to contra forces, has encouraged the commission by them of acts contrary to general principles of humanitarian law; but does not find a basis for concluding that any such acts which may have been committed are imputable to the United States of America as acts of the United States of America" 
Can someone tell me where in the article it says this quote? I can't find it. (the article is split into three).  There were several articles posted about the Operaciones sicologicas en guerra de guerrillas, some more favorable to the US, this one doesnt appear to be very favorable. 
Here is a couple of sentences, which are similar: 
:n105...The I.C.J. held that the manual encouraged the commission of acts that were illegal under international law, but did "not find a basis for concluding that any such acts which may have been committed as imputable to the United States of America as acts of the United States of America." Id. at 148. As discussed in Part IV, this Comment does not claim that the acts committed by the SOA graduates are imputable to the United States, but claims that the United States is directly liable for the atrocities and torture committed by SOA graduates because of improper training. 
Update: I found the actual quote, and updated the link69.153.81.232 01:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Nicaragua v US]] part 2