Talk:Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn/Archive 4

message: After doing a bit of research, I've found several references (including published books) that proclaim the Golden Dawn was a Satanic orgnaization, an Illuminatti conspiracy to dominate the world:
"As those who investigate the Illuminati find out, the Illuminati control the press. Here was a man who helped do it for them Last newsletter issue (1/15/93) went into some detail about how important the Satanic Societas Rosicruciana is in relation to the Satanic groups such as the O.T.O., Golden Dawn, and Stella Matutina. The Societas Rosicruciana is definitely a high level exclusive Illuminati organization." 
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/the_collins_bloodline.htm
The URL below contains excerpts from a book that details the connections between the Golden Dawn and Satanism:
http://www.ritualabusefree.org/The%20Golden%20Dawn.htm
These things come from the "Freemasons are taking over the world" conspiracy buffs, but they do put out books. So, since these are "published accounts", shall we include them in the main article? If not, why not?
Especially considering that the idea of a GD group being "satanic" has already been breached by editors here, aren't we then justified in linking ALL GD groups to Satanism, including the historical order, using the above sources for citations?
Or is pushing a "satanic" connection to the GD opening a can worms that would be better left unopened? Once you start putting "satanism" into Wikipeida articles, it pops up on search engines. Then the conspiracy buffs find it, and they come along to push their OWN agenda, and I doubt any editors here want that to happen. But if an editor already here has put "satanism" into ONE sub-article and thinks they're justified in doing so, how can we then argue AGAINST the paranoid conspriacy types doing the same to ALL the articles? - JMax555 16:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That seems quite simple really. If the article is to be about the historical Order which called itself the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn from the turn of the 19th century and the beliefs and rituals of that notable organization from that time, there is really no published historical account on the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn that would suggest anything resembling Satanism by all verifiable accounts. Any contemporary conspiracy theories would not apply to an article devoted to a purely historical account. If the conspiracy theorists wanted to create their own articles on their own obscure theories using their own verifiable and published accounts, they are free to do so. I seriously doubt the real controversy in contemporary Golden Dawn circles over whether your distinct minority Order and organization's POV of replacing the original(or traditional)ritually invoked god of Horus to Set( an egyptian god often concieved of as a god of darkness and choas who has also been associated with the so-called Temple of Set or with Setianism )would really catch the eye of a whole lot of these people. I understand where you are coming from, but I'm not sure the OSOGD is that notable of an organization to those people or, for that matter, by Wikipedia's standards. I'm afraid that to percieve this might be a little paranoid of a view in itself. If for some reason, a flock of conspiracy theorists descend upon this article, I think, in the end, their extreme bias would be thoroughly purged by our editors here, inclusive of yourself. ;) I'm sure those people probably have bigger fish they want to try to fry, like certain politicians? :)Kephera975 23:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Speaking of connections...

message: I requested unprotection, and it has been granted. Lets get back to work. Happy editing! Zos 23:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotected 

message: Ok, I'm suggesting that a header be created for some of the offshoots (not all of them). None of it needs any citations, as there will be citations in the main articles. Any objections? Zos 23:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Golden Dawn offshoots 

message: I'm noticing some things that may have already come up, but I'm starting fresh here. Just think of this more like a list to work on, not an attack or anything designed to provoke an argument, or accert authority/ownership. 
*SRIA material might need to be removed to its own page, only leaving the material neccessary for its origins in the Golden Dawn. Which would only be a few small statements like: Some founders were memeber / this is how it influenced the Golden Dawn  etc etc. i.e anything really pertinent.
*The cipher manuscripts section is a bit long and might need shortening. The main article goes into detail about it, and shouldnt here. Only enough so where you dont really have to go to the main article to understand why its important to this article.
*The break up section is way too small. There were at least 10 different factions of the Golden Dawn after the revolt. This might need some expansion (see above this, Golden Dawn offshoots talk section). 
*The modern revival section is a bit weak. Its my opinion that its purpose is not really clear.
*Also, the GD A+O is an order directly relating to the original Golden Dawn. The old one, not the new one. So the way I see it, it shouldnt be listed as an offshoot, its more like a direct lineage to the original (I say this because Mathers started it, and is the only one that I know of who can claim lineage at that point in time, as he was the chief of the order). 
*And the Secret Chiefs section might need to be shortened as well. Just enough info that pertinent to this article, as the main article goes in depth. Plus, shouldnt this section be moved closer to the top? I think it constitutes as part of the origins. 
If anyone thinks there ought to be more changes, please add to the list! Zos 23:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh and whats the deal with the Light in Extension section? Why is this even here? (LVX!) Zos 23:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other changes