Talk:12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend

message: Hey, the "Armoured" redirect that redirects to a wiki page about a film called "Armoured", someone fix? I would fix it myself but i really don't know anything about armoured division and since "armoured division" redirects to "division" and there's already a redirect to "division".... or someone could just remove the "armoured" redirect? lol I dont know i'm new to this stuff...   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.11.27.204 (talk) 12:35, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: "Armoured" redirect

message: It is true that the whole of the SS, including the Waffen SS, was delared a criminal organisation at the Nuremberg trials. However, it is also true that the West German government of the 1980's (not sure of exact date) legitimised the W-SS by recognising the service they performed as a fighting force and granting them their war pensions. To remove this fact is to misrepresent history and as I understand it contrary to the aims of Wikipedia.
It is not true that the '12th SS Panzer-Division in particular established a reputation for atrocities'. The division did commit atrocities, but as these were commited by a number of units, on both sides, there is nothing unique about the record of the 12th. Thanks. D.Mellor 6.7.06
::: On the contrary, many histories of the Normandy campaign mention the 12th SS specially for their murder of Candian POWs. Of course they were not the only unit to kill POWs, but they are particularly well-known for it, and for the large numbers killed. "Legitimized" is your word and is original research. Claiming that it is a reversal of Nuremberg is misrepresenting history, is it not?  DMorpheus 16:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That would be: original research (since it is your conclusion) ; a POV statement ("legitimize" is a volatile term to use when describing the Waffen-SS) and incorrect (pensions are given to individuals, not the Waffen-SS organization). DMorpheus 19:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitrary header

message: Although this page is not the place for this, as User:Sam Spade has said, atrocities (or rather 'Questionable Actions') on both sides during the fighting around Carpiquet, Authie and Buron are well documented. Mohnke's issuance of a no prisoners order was in response to elements of the Canadian 3rd Division tying the body of a captured HJ trooper to the front of a Sherman V. I'm at work ATM, so don't have my sources and the only one i can think of offhand is the Michael Reynolds Steel Inferno: I SS Panzerkorps in Normandy, the Leibstandare IV/1 by Lehmann and Meyer's autobiography Grenadiere (although this last source is, admittedly, somewhat  biased). 
Also, see the webpage []. The well known images, one of which is posted on the page, clearly show SS-HJ men posed by a Canadian soldier after an Interrogation. I'm not argueing that SS-HJ was not condemned unjustly, as they themselves also inargueably committed war crimes in Normandy, but it is clearly documented that at least the Canadian 3rd Division did also perform several questionable activities with regards to HJ POWs. --Ansbachdragoner 02:01, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Same comment - "The issuing of orders not to take prisoners in retaliation for a certain action by the enemy was a daily occurrence in both the German, Canadian and British commands" I have never heard of such an order in British or Candian units. Unless a credible citation can be provided this comment does not belong here. DMorpheus 00:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Allied War Crimes

message: Under the 'Normandy Campaign' heading of the article, this is stated:
:"It is during this period [on June 8th, see prior paragraph] that 18 Canadian prisoners of war from the Nova Scotia Highlanders were executed at the Abbey Ardennes by elements of the division."
Under the 'War Crimes' heading of the articlee, this is stated:
:"When the division was first engaged in action in June 1944, there were several cases of atrocities being committed. On June 8, thirty-six Canadians were allegedly executed by Wilhelm Mohnke's SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 26."
At the very least, these numbers are not consistent.
Further, as a general issue, I think the war crimes of the 12th Panzer Division Hitlerjugend need concise, clear and direct citations to make sure a genuine NPOV is achieved. Cheers, Madmagic 07:27, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
----
Madmagic,
The two quotes which you refer to in the article above refer to two different events, one (the Abbaye Ardennes massacre committed on June 8 by elements of Kurt Meyer's SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 25) is confirmed while the second, perpetrated by Wilhelm Mohnke's SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 26, is only alleged.--Ansbachdragoner 03:00, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Inconsistent Numbers In War Crimes Descriptions

message: This article has many factual errors and I'm attempting to correct as many as I can.  There is a lot of information in various primary (archives etc) and secondary (books about the campaign) and they are growing in accuracy and depth as time goes on.  post any questions here and I'll try to clarify.
There is a growing tendancy to lionize the accomplishments of units like the 12 SS (which indeed were many) and ignore thier offences, but that is not a reason to not put thier mistakes and failings in the same places in order to let newcomers form thier own opinions.  My theory on this is that the Waffen SS have historically been made scapegoats for larger issues around the Nazi regime.  They were all denied pensions by the West German government just like the regular SS while Army Navy and Air Force vets were accorded pensions.   
Many who don't like to see references to the murders committed by a small number of the division's members try to counter by claiming the same things were done on both sides.  Thier is no evidence to support that (at least so far).  So far there is no anecdotal or official documented instances of this happening on the Canadian side of this fighting.   There are instances on both sides of men being killed as they attempted to surrender or as they attempted to get thier enemy to surrender but who among us can judge those actions?  Once men are disarmed and leave the fighting under guard the issues are totally different. 
I have found descriptions of a serious rift within the leaders of the 26th Regiment about the killing of prisoners by that unit and the 12th Reconnaisance Company.  Even as his men fought on against the Canadians on the 8th of June, Bernard Siebken (commander of the 26th Regiment) had a confrontation with his commanding officer Whilhem Mohnke where he complained that prisoners he was sending to Mohnke's headquarters were being killed.  He appealed to the division's Intelligence Officer Hubert Meyer (later the division's commander after Kurt Meyer's capture) who informed Siebken that there was no policy that sanctioned the killing of prisoners and in fact they were a valuable intelligence resource.  Siebken attempted to contact Mohnke but in the fighting that was still ongoing was unable to reach his commander.  Siebken held some remaining Canadians at his own headquarters in the understanding that Division would intervene in the matter.  A few hours later Siebken was out among his fighting troops and an officer from Monke's headquarters arrived at the company headquarters and orderded the junior officer in temporary command to personally take the Canadians out and kill them.  Very much against his wishes but realistically afraid to refuse the order, he complied.
A man like Siebken deserves to be known to all of us and deserves our utmost respect as a soldier.  I'll leave the overall judgements about the cause for which he fought to another forum.  Can the same be said for Mohnke?
I'll add this to the war crimes section if I get the proper sources documented. It shows the fact that murders were being committed and that it was being ordered against the moral objections of others within the division.  
The article is getting much better and more even handed and hopefully that will continue.  
Lets all try to keep it a fair as possible.
A14KRR
::On the contrary, over the last few weeks it has become more and more pro-Nazi. DMorpheus 01:00, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy of figures etc 

message: This section, concerning Mohnke's 26th Pz Gren regt attack on Norrey is quite confusing and there are some errors.
Firstly, the present article seems to confuse the attacks launched on June 8th. It is said in the article that Mohnke's grenadiers pushed the "Winnpeg Rifles" out of Norrey-en-Bessin - this is inaccurate. Norrey-en-Bessin was held by the Regina Regiment and was never reoccupied by the German's inspite of several attacks launched on the village.
Referring to the present article, the attack that is stated as starting at "03:30" on June 8th, is referring to the attack by I/26th on Norrey. Norrey was well-defended by C Company of the Regina Regiment, with artillery support, and the attack failed.
Another attack launched on June 8th - by II/26th - is the one that was most successful (albeit temporarily). This attack was not on Norrey-en-Bessin, but on Putot-en-Bessin - which was defended by the Royal Winnipeg Rifles (hence why I think this is where the confusion arises). Despite the similar sounding names, there is a lot of difference. The attack was launched later than the 1st Battalion's attack (around 04:00), and succeeded in capturing Putot and overrunning three companies of the Winnipeg's. A counter-attack by the Canadian-Scottish, at 20:30hrs recaptured the village for the Canadians. A lot of these facts are mentioned in the present article - but are said to have occurred at Norrey rather than at Putot.
I can provide sources if you require them? BobFish 16:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, have gone ahead and changed the Norrey section. Hope it's okay. Have also added a reference, and a References list at the bottom of the article. BobFish 14:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Normandy - Norrey 

message: I've just edited the opening paragraph of this article. It was needed.
The war crimes committed at the Abbaye d'Ardenne by soldiers of the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend are not "allegations." They are a known and proven historical fact.
There may be other war crimes accusations against this military unit which are not proven or known historical facts. The killing of the Canadian POWs at Abbaye d'Ardenne is not open to question.
You can read the story -- including the names and ranks of the Canadian POWs -- here:
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=Memorials/ww2mem/ardenne  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madmagic (talk • contribs) 08:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proven War Crimes Are Not "Allegations" 

message: Article reassessed and graded as start class.  Referencing and appropriate inline citation guidelines not met.  If the citations and references were improved, this article would easily be B class if not GA    --dashiellx (talk) 17:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008 

message: I am skeptical of the quality of such self-published web sites as axishistory.com and history.com. Seems to me we can come up with better sources than these for some of the tagged items in the article. Please see WP:RS  Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 18:11, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Self-published web sources 

message: In order to keep the recent B class rating, I think a few "citation needed" tags need to be addressed. (Hohum @) 19:19, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  B class 

message: The sentence in the lead regarding the performance in the opening days is cited with.
"Oliver Haller, a graduate of Wilfrid
Laurier University, is currently pursuing
advanced studies at Phillips Marburg
University in Germany. This essay is
based on his Laurier B.A. thesis."
discussion ended.... Blablaaa (talk) 00:08, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Text suggestion something like: In the opening days of the normandy campaign the division didnt fulfill the expections. During the campaign the division matured and become one of the ((strongest ??? other word )) armored division being active in the normandy..
MY english isnt good so maybe somebody writes something decent. I guess this describes the reality pretty good, doesnt it? regarding the "strongest", u can find many citiations in british and canadian works and reynolds i guess. Blablaaa (talk) 00:15, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Performance 

message: The division undoubtedly committed war crimes but the section concentrates on one man Meyer. More about the division less about the man. --Jim Sweeney (talk) 07:31, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "undoubtedly" As in 'thou shalt not doubt our slander'? 105.8.5.117 (talk) 04:06, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  War crimes 

message: Would these sources be considered reliable in this context? These are participants of the events/unit commanders, so should these, as memoirs, be moved to section Further reading? 
Currently: 
References
*Meyer Kurt, Grenadiers, JJ Fedorowicz Publishing ltd, 2001, 
*Meyer Hubert, The 12th SS: The History of the Hitler Youth Panzer Division, Stackpole Books, 2005, 
*Meyer Hubert, The 12th SS Volume Two: The History of the Hitler Youth Panzer Division, Stackpole Books, 2005, 
Thoughts? --K.e.coffman (talk) 09:02, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources  

message: Redirected as suggested
:Redirected, where? Suggested, by whom? And, who are you? Carlotm (talk) 22:39, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Objection to 'Leaps of Faith' being stated as Fact  

message: The 80% casualty rate mentioned in this article is incorrect. Whoever cited George Stein's "The Waffen-SS: Hitler's Elite Guard at War 1939–1945" for this specific percentage failed to understand that it referred to the division's Kampfstärke, or maybe Infanteriestärke. In truth, in the 6 June - 22 August timeframe, the division lost aprox. 8,000Meyer, Hubert (2005). The 12th SS: The History of the Hitler Youth Panzer DivisionZetterling, Niklas (2019). Normandy, 1944: German Military Organization, Combat Power and Organizational Effectiveness, p. 316 out of 20,540 men. Stein mistakenly quotes a few passages from Kurt Meyer's Grenadiere, that obviously present the unit's Kampfstärke of 500-600 men (frontline soldiers only), as if they referred to the entire division.
MihaiStr96 (talk) 11:28, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualty rate in the summer of 1944 

message: Knightofen.
White knight of the Waffen SS. 
Fantastic people.
War crimes.
Shit combat record.
Especially these kiddies.
Ran in terror from Poles with proper equipment and armor when they fought 5:1 advantage against those Poles.
This page is an absolute Wehrboi disgrace.
:If you have any constructive edits, feel free to make them. Unfortunately none of your previous edits, about 3-4 months ago, had any citations. Additionally, you write non-encyclopedic content, such as addressing individual users, into the article itself. All war crimes I can think of are written into the article.Knightoften (talk) 03:08, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  So what a surprise that is a war crime SS fan boy page