Talk:Pioneer (locomotive)

message: I believe that the Pioneer locomotive in this article was built by Baldwin in 1843 as construction number 184 for the Tonawanda Railroad of New York, originally named Batavia, and that the Gelena & Chicago Union Railroad purchased the locomotive from the Rochester & Tonawanda Railroad, which evolved from the Tonawanda Railroad, in 1848.  I believe this Pioneer locomotive is the oldest preserved Baldwin locomotive in existence, and as such this too should be noted.  Please consider the following inputs to support my belief:
This website, and three others that I can find, inidate that this Pioneer locomotive was originally built by Baldwin in 1837 for the Utica & Schenectady Railroad and originally named Alert, with some noting the construction number as No 37.
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/lists/searchdb.php?country=USA&state=IL
Claims No 7 of the C&NW (U&S) Baldwin Construction Number 37 and built in 1837
http://www.wego1963.com/the-pioneer-locomotive.html
Claimed built 1837 and from Utica & Schenectady originally named Alert
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=USA&wheel=4-2-0&railroad=nyc
Claims Alert Class starting with Utica & Schenectady and then renamed Pioneer when operated on the Galena & Chicago Union Railroad
I have found two other websites that state that this locomotive was originally built by Baldwin in 1843 as construction number 184 for the Tonawanda Railroad, originally named Batavia
http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=427
Claims built in 1843 with construction number 184 for the Tonawanda Railroad orignially nambed Batavia (never mentions the Utica & Schenectady Railroad)
http://www.cnwhs.org/articles/1166734167.pdf
Claims built in 1843 with construction number 184 for the Tonawanda Railroad and originally named Batavia (never mentions the Utica & Schenectady Railroad)
In both cases, the websites all indicate that the locomotive was purchased by the Galena & Chicago Union Railroad from a railroad in New York by William B Ogden and delivered by ship in 1848 where the locomotive is renamed Pioneer (in the former case the Utica & Schenectady Railroad and in the later case the Rochester & Tonawanda Railroad which evolved from the Tonawanda Railroad of New York).
This locomotive has been treated with significance because it was the first locomotive to pull a train west out of Chicago in 1848 for the Galena & Chicago Union Railroad, which later becomes part of the Chicago & North Western Railroad.  This is the reason that this locomotive was preserved, and even restored to an operational state.
But I believe this locomotive is also the oldest preserved Baldwin built locomotive in existance, which further increases its signficance and I think sould be noted in the Wiki web site.
I find it surprising that the build date and construction number for the oldest preserved Baldwin locmotive are in confusion (I believe it will be the oldest preserved Baldwin even if built in 1843 with construction number 184).
From the searches I have made on the internet to date, I am of the belief that this Pioneer locomotive was built by Baldwin in 1843 as Construction Number 184 for the Tonawanda Railroad of New York.  I base this belief on a reference I have seen indicating that in 1839 Baldwin abandoned using the wooden outside frame on his locomotives staring with construction number 136.
https://books.google.com/books?id=1A4iiGAz628C&pg=PA158&lpg=PA158&dq=baldwin+wooden+frame+1839&source=bl&ots=puZwzntXRt&sig=GGrMxXAbaOoFd4uTEbL8ptftbhE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRtf-DkL3WAhVCs1QKHRdNDM4Q6AEINzAG#v=onepage&q=baldwin%20wooden%20frame%201839&f=false
The Pioneer does not appear to have ever had a wooden outside frame, making it consistent that it is built after 1839 (i.e. 1843) with a construction number higher than 136 (i.e. 184).
The confusion on this particular Pioneer locomotive seems to stem from that fact that the Utica & Schenectady Railroad, another New York railroad, did purchase from Baldwin a 4-2-0 locomotive in 1837 that is named Alert with construction number 37 (which becomes a class of locomotive offered by Baldwin starting with construction number 35 and including construction builds up to 38).
However, these 4-2-0 locomotives of the Utica & Schenectady Railroad apparently used wooden frames, with iron plating, just as the 1834 drawing of a Baldwin 4-2-0 depicts.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baldwin_4-2-0_Philadelphie,_1834.jpg
As an additional note, the significance that it is William B Ogden, who was first mayor of Chicago in 1837 and later becomes the first president of the Union Pacific in 1862, and is later honored by having Ogden Flats in Utah named for him, that makes the purchase of this locomotive, and the fact that the railroad for which he makes this purchase, the Galena & Chicago Union Railroad, is formed to support farmers with funding provided through subscriptions by the farmers, is also significant and I think worth mention in this Wiki page.
The transportation of the farmers goods west of Chicago by rail (instead of by canal) was a significant event in 1848, and is the reason this locomotive has been preserved.
Thank you for your consideration,
Don Heflinger
HDonHH1@juno.com
HDonHH1 (talk) 06:05, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Baldwin had only completed 100 Locomotives by the end of 1837 (only 40 were built in 1837) and they were numbered sequentially; it is highly unlikely that an engine built in 1837 would have a number as high as the Pioneer is reported to be.  However, looking at the Pioneer, it has a dome over the firebox, a 4 wheeled front truck, and 2 drive wheels located behind the firebox: all characteristic of an 1837 Baldwin.  Wood frames were abandoned (and no outside frame was employed) on locomotive number 136 in 1839, but parts of the wood frame could have been replaced on some earlier models with iron pieces.  So I think it could have been built by Baldwin in 1837 or 1838.  Baldwin Locomotive Works, Illustrated Catalogue of Locomotives  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.240.2.125 (talk) 22:16, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Baldwin