Talk:Middlesex (novel)

message: I have deleted this message because I don't think it is true. I added fiction as the genre, which I *think* was the only missing field, because it is not in a series and was not translated from another language into english. If I'm missing something please tell me. Tartan 20:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Other than using "Novel" instead of Fiction - you re quite correct. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 08:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox incomplete?

message: Note to self: http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780312422158-1, http://www.indiebound.org/book/9780312427733, and http://www.bookbrowse.com/reviews/index.cfm?book_number=1318 contain snippets/links to a number of reviews. Cunard (talk) 07:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Link to journal abstract. Cunard (talk) 08:21, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Interview – includes Eugenides' perspective on the nature vs. nurture theme in his novel. Cunard (talk) 09:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-5827124/Of-self-and-country-U.html. Cunard (talk) 06:52, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Useful links

message: Following a request from Cunard (talk), I have done a copy edit of this article. There are still a few issues which I have not had time to review, so if anyone has time and wish to help, please do. For FA articles, only the first mention of a word or term should be wikified. There are some words that are wikified more than once, and sometimes, they are not wikified on its first mention, but further down. This needs to be corrected. I also do not have the time now to go through the peer review. I will try to do that tomorrow. Cheers. -- S Masters (talk) 17:19, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Copy edit April 2010

message: Here, as requested, are some comments on what I believe is a first-class article. I have not read the book yet, so some of my comments may seem nitpicky and naïve. They may help, however, in the final polishing stages before what I assume will be a FAC nomination. 
*Lead: It would be interesting to know who wrote The Memoirs of Herculine Barbin, and when was it written.
**I added that The Memoirs of Herculine Barbin were published by Michel Foucalt in 1978 but don't know how to include that Herculine Barbin wrote the memoirs when she was a nineteenth-century convent schoolgirl without making the sentence convoluted. Cunard (talk) 05:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *Reworded both. Nice catch! Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

text: *I removed Professor Morris's quote, which consisted of most of the direct quoation in the article. There are two short quotes remaining. Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

text: Thank you for the valuable critique of the article. I'll address your concerns over the next couple of days. Cunard (talk) 05:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've finished addressing your insightful comments, which have allowed me to greatly refine the article. While researching for more information to address your concerns, I found another source added a new subsection to the "Themes" section; it is titled "Middlesex (novel)#Race relations". Would you take a look at it please? Thanks! Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have looked at the new section, which I think adds something of importance. Two points: would "confirming" be better than "finishing" (the racial stereotype)? Secondly, in the final paragraph whose views are being expressed (e.g. "The novel depicts African-American poverty but never illustrates its causes" etc.) It is important to detach these assertions from the editorial voice. Brianboulton (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

text: I will certainly notify you when I send this to FAC. Thanks for your help! Cunard (talk) 00:41, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Some general (and hopefully useful) comments

message: In general, there is a lot of good material here, but I think there are some organizational kinks to work out and perhaps some sourcing. I would suggest obtaining a copyeditor after you work on these larger issues, someone who can go over each and every sentence before FAC.
*I noticed that there are quite a few articles that have "Middlesex" as a keyword in the MLA database that are not used as sources for this article. Any reason those aren't used?
:*I don't think my library has access to the MLA database, though it does have access to http://search.ebscohost.com/ (Literary Reference Center), where I have found many useful sources. I will be incorporating them into the article. Cunard (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *I listed the MLA citations below. Awadewit (talk) 04:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *Thank you! A number of the citations can be accessed via the Literary Reference Center database, though a few are not there. Cunard (talk) 21:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

text: *I have begun a "Setting" section and have moved this paragraph there. Cunard (talk) 07:46, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *I have completed the "Setting" section. Cunard (talk) 22:43, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

text: *I have moved this to the third paragraph of "Plot" section. Cunard (talk) 22:58, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

text: *I have moved this to the first paragraph of the "Plot" section . Cunard (talk) 22:58, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

text: *If I moved the sales information to the "Reception" section, wouldn't the sentence about the book being published by Bloomsberry be orphaned?The section title is "Background and publication", and I can't think of any other publication information to include there. Cunard (talk) 07:31, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *I would combine the Bloomsbury sentence with the end of the second paragraph, where it already says that the novel was published. Awadewit (talk) 17:00, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *Done. I've also moved the sales information to the "Reception" section. Cunard (talk) 07:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

text: *I've checked the articles on Google and don't think there is any more that could be added. Is there any way that I could make it seem less listy? Cunard (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

text: *Condensed per your suggestion. Gingsengbomb, will you copyedit this page for wordiness? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 23:03, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

text: *Yes and yes. I've expanded the "Themes" section with an article from Critique (journal) and renamed the section to "Ethnic identity". Cunard (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

text: *The content in this section is all that I have found about race relations so far, but I hope that the sources in the Literary Reference database will have some more information about this. Cunard (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

text: *No, all of the examples I used were provided by the critics and reviewers. For example:While his female classmates are turned off by the blood in The Iliad, Cal is "thrilled to [read about] the stabbings and beheadings, the gouging out of eyes, the juicy eviscerations".[65] Cal ponders his gender identity and how males and females associate with each other,[63] reflecting, "Did I see through the male tricks because I was destined to scheme that way myself? Or do girls see through the tricks, too, and just pretend not to notice?"[66]Citations 63 and 66 are to pages in the novel, while citation 65 is to a book by Angela Pattatucci Aragon. Aragon's analysis of the novel's themes included the quotes from the novel (citations 63 and 66). I prefer using quotes from the novel to quotes from the secondary source because the prose of the novel is generally clearer and better written. The wording of the secondary source is less able to convey the emotion and atmosphere of each scene. Is there another way I can make it clearer that the examples/quotes are pulled from the secondary source? Cunard (talk) 02:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *Could you provide a citation to the secondary source in the same note? So, the citations to Middlesex will always contain the secondary source as well as the primary? Just having both might help. Awadewit (talk) 06:31, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *I will work on doing that. Cunard (talk) 06:41, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *Done. Cunard (talk) 07:31, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

text: *Yes, the "Greek mythical allusions" section is more suitable in the "Style" section, so I've moved it. I don't think there could be a paragraph about the lover because there are few sources that discuss the Obscure Object and Sapphic love. Cunard (talk) 23:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

text: *Why will they be ephemeral? I thought that breaking them into subsections would highlight the key topics that the reviewers addressed. Cunard (talk) 07:31, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *The key topics that reviewers highlight tends to change much more than, say, themes. So, for example, I would expect the thematic categories to remain rather static, even if critics have changing views on those themes. The topics that reviewers choose to highlight will change over time, however. To get a sense of this, simply read Reception history of Jane Austen. In general, I felt that the "Reception" section was a bit choppy and I think that five years from now, it will be more difficult to update it with these sections in place, but ultimately the choice for how to structure it is yours. Awadewit (talk) 16:56, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *You've raised some good points about this so I have removed the subsections. I've combined two paragraphs so that there are now five paragraphs in the "Critical reception" section. I don't know what to condense since I'm too close to the material. Do you have any ideas, or is the "Critical reception" section at an acceptable length? Cunard (talk) 07:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

text: *The lead-in sentence is: "David Gates of Newsweek contrasted Eugenides' debut novel, The Virgin Suicides with Middlesex". I think this is sufficient in establishing the connection, but is there any way I can make it clearer? Cunard (talk) 02:26, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *Right, but I had forgotten that by the time I got to the reception section (especially since I read the article over several days). You might also consider that not everyone reads very carefully. Some people skim and some readers skip to later sections. A reminder is not always unnecessary repetition. Awadewit (talk) 06:31, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *I don't understand. The sentence I quoted above is the first sentence of Middlesex (novel)#Comparison with The Virgin Suicides. Cunard (talk) 06:41, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *Ah, sorry. One shouldn't edit when tired! Awadewit (talk) 16:58, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *No worries. I'm grateful for your pointers which have been helpful even when you're tired. Cunard (talk) 06:37, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

text: *Yes. This is verified by a Publisher's Weekly article that is reprinted by Barnes and Noble (it can be found by clicking on the "Editorial Reviews" tab). I cannot find a copy of the article on Publisher's Weekly's website so am unsure of how to cite this. Cunard (talk) 08:00, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *Here is the citation information for the PW review: Publishers Weekly; 12/2/2002, Vol. 249 Issue 48, p21, 2p. Awadewit (talk) 17:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *Thanks for the citation information. I've added the audiobook information to the "Honors and adaptation" section. Do you have any information about the title and author of the review? Cunard (talk) 06:37, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *That's all that was available. Awadewit (talk) 04:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

text: *Reworded per your suggestion. If I named the African American characters (Stephanides' relationship with the African Americans characters, such as Marius Grimes), wouldn't that be synthesis? Cunard (talk) 00:07, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *This is not synthesis in the sense of advocating a new position - there is no problem with doing this. Awadewit (talk) 04:31, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *Oops, my mistake. I've made the change. Cunard (talk) 21:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

text: Thank you for the incisive comments. I will work on them over the next couple of weeks. Cunard (talk) 01:30, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments from Awadewit 

message: Change 3
The Autobiographical elements section seemed a bit disorganized to me.  I set up three paragraphs: Eugenides's introduction, Eugenides vs Cal, and his family vs Cal's.  There were some repetitous elements, the most obvious to me was the author's quotes.  Some stuff also strikes me as not quite fitting in with the "autobiography" theme.  The deterioration of Zebra Room did not seem pertinent ("And in a way my upbringing is just like a slow time-lapse film of everything falling apart on that street, because we would have to go down it almost every day." does not seem to be describing Cal's life).  I think the omens bit plays no part in the story of "his" life.  The one paragraph dedicated to it seems a bit too overwhelming for something that did not make it into the book nor affected its writing.  Jappalang (talk) 01:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for tightening this section.  wrote above that the section was "listy", and I was unable to restructure it to flow better.I agree the discussion about Eugenides' omens doesn't fit well anywhere here, so I'll move it to Eugenides' own article. Cunard (talk) 09:08, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autobiographical elements 

message: Change 5
* "Cal repeatedly compares himself to Tiresias, ..."
*: The source does not say "repeatedly"; the book itself (through Google) lists only 6 mentions of the name.
*::I based this wording on Francisco Collado-Rodríguez's discussion about Cal and Tiresias:  In his statements, Cal both implicitly and explicitly alludes to Tiresias. I base both types of illusions on Collado-Rodríguez's interpretations about Cal and Tiresias. Cal does compare himself to Tiresias several times. Perhaps "repeatedly" is not the best wording. "Cal compares himself to Tiresias several times" would have probably worked better. However, the current wording is fine as is. Cunard (talk) 09:01, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: *I have moved this to the "Gender identity" section. Cunard (talk) 01:36, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

text: *Agreed. Thank you for cutting the extraneous information. Cunard (talk) 01:36, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

text: *I do not think this belongs anywhere in the article. I considered placing these comparisons in the "Genres" section; however, the source doesn't discuss them in the context of any genres. Cunard (talk) 01:36, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

text: *Thank you for the revision. You have caught many structural issues with my writing. Cunard (talk) 01:36, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

text: The "Greek mythical allusions" can fit in either "Themes" or "Style" depending on how it is framed. I agree with your assessment that the Chimera, Odysseus, and Oedipus angles would have to excluded if this were placed in the "Style" section so agree with your moving it to "Themes". Cunard (talk) 01:36, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for these changes. I have taken a brief look at them but am very short on time at the moment. I will take a closer look and reply to each comment later this week. Cunard (talk) 07:36, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have posted responses to your first bullet points. I will revisit this later this week. Cunard (talk) 09:01, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

text: I will be honored to accept a co-nomination with you.  I think even after my rework, we would need a copy-edit from someone with better language skills (mine are not up to the brilliant standards requested at FAC).  Jappalang (talk) 02:20, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for accepting a conomination. Your language skills are impressive but the "brilliant standards" requirement is difficult to satisfy. I think I have the perfect person for the job: . Cunard (talk) 20:37, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek mythical allusions 

message: Change 6
* "Numerous events occurred between 1975 and 2002 that internationally established America's identity: ... Through its depiction of historical events in the United States ... a family struggling against historical changes."
*: Cohen's comments on 1975–2002 is not related to the family, but to Cal's manner of narration.  Cohen acknowledges that events of the referred period are not detailed in the book (but should be because they supposedly influenced how Cal thinks).  Thus Cohen's remarks do not seem related to the portrayal of the Stephanides.
*::Agreed. Cunard (talk) 20:57, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: *I've provided archived links to the abstracts so that I can easily access them to verify the source information (author, date, and publication) if the page disappears.To give the direct link to the abstract more prominence, I've added a |deadurl=no to those templates. See Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Dead url parameter for citations for information about what it does. Cunard (talk) 20:57, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

text: *Removed. Cunard (talk) 20:57, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

text: Agreed. I find that I rely too much on Eugenides' remarks because he is a very eloquent speaker and writer. Cunard (talk) 20:57, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

text: *Thank you for these further changes. I will address these either later today or tomorrow. Cunard (talk) 09:59, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genres 

message: I have no access to Sobczak, A. J., but it seems that of the five sources for this subsection, only Wainwright specifically talks about rebirth.  Of particular note, the sentence of Jimmy Zizmo's rebirth is not supported by Hanna's "a bootlegger who reinvents himself as a Muslim minister, Farrad Mohammad" ("reinvent" does not mean "rebirth" and she does not seem to state it as such).  Are there any more sources that supports such a theme?  If not, I think it could be better to integrate Wainwright into Nature versus nurture or Gender identity.  Jappalang (talk) 03:19, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Jimmy Zizmo is said to have died during a bootlegging trip. In actuality, he has not died and has reinvented himself into a Muslim minister (see page 127 of Middlesex). It could be interpreted as a "rebirth", but unfortunately Hanna doesn't seem to make that connection.Sobczak, A. J. states: Cal's grandparents are more firmly attached to the idea of life as inevitable tragedy. Shortly before fleeing their tiny Greek village during the Turkish invasion of 1922, they realize that although they are brother and sister, they love each other as man and woman. Thus is rooted another theme of the book, that of transformation — Cal's from female to male identification and his grandparents' reinvention of themselves as husband and wife rather than brother and sister. The latter choice sets Cal’s story in motion, for it is through his grandparents’ mating that a rare recessive gene is passed to Cal's father. I agree that "rebirth" does not mean "reinvention" or "transformation". Perhaps this section can be retitled to be "Reinvention" or "Transformation" to better reflect the sources? Cunard (talk) 10:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am planning to run through the entire Themes section and restructure; piecemeal editing (sub-section by subsection) seems inefficient to me (it is possible that some sub-sections could be combined with others to form a more effective point or there might be splits as well).  It will take some time but let us have a look at the end results before deciding.  On another note, I am aware of Zizmo's incarnation as Wallace Fard Muhammad, which reinforces my suspicion that Eugenides is playing loose with history and facts (Bithynios, Fard Muhammad, etc), exploiting them for titillation; I highly suspect that the "See synonyms at MONSTER" is also another invention.  This early Webster's certainly does not define hermaphrodite in such a manner, and I cannot foresee how other versions would do that (this is my opinion; who knows which edition/version Eugenides is referring to).  Jappalang (talk) 01:19, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Eugenides is such a wily character! I never thought to check the definition of "hermaphrodite" he ascribes to Webster's. I look forward to your reworking of the the "Themes" section. Cunard (talk) 05:57, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rebirth 

message: :Moved from http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cunard&oldid=470536160#Middlesex
Hey, so as to let you know, I am not giving up on this article.  I am trying to gather and read up on the sources, which is taking up time.  I am growing a bit concerned that the article might be having too much stuff and is too reliant on non-scholarly text.  Just my thoughts at the moment (might change with time and further reading).  Jappalang (talk) 02:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the update. Please provide examples of non-scholarly sources, so I can better understand your position. Are you referring to the newspaper book reviews I've used? Cunard (talk) 01:01, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Thank you for the time and effort you've spent composing this final reply to me. I will carefully consider your suggestions about how to rewrite the "Themes" section to be based more on scholarly, peer-reviewed sources, rather than newspaper articles, and your apt image suggestions. I wish you success in your career and thank you for the innumerable hours of selfless service you've devoted to writing and improving articles and mentoring inexperienced editors such as myself. Cunard (talk) 01:19, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I will take a break of several months from a major restructuring of the "Theme" section in Middlesex so I can carefully think about how to approach it. Cunard (talk) 22:14, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Final comments from Jappalang 

message: Why is Robert Zecker's analysis so prominent in the subsection on race relations?  His analysis of the story wasn't exactly impartial, and the fact that it's so focused on gives the section a biased feel.  The section should be edited to give his analysis less importance, and bring in other analyses of race relations in the novel.  That would make the section more balanced and neutral.  Right now, it reads not like a look at race relations in the novel, but a look at Zecker's opinion on race relations in the novel. 2601:0:B101:30D0:A4CC:5582:A071:245C (talk) 03:55, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the comment, which I agree with. Feel free to add other analyses of race relations in the novel to that section. Cunard (talk) 04:48, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Robert Zecker