Talk:Stephen Barrett/Archive 2

message: Note: RubyQ added this comment and a lot of archived material:
:Is it appropriate to delete huge swathes of the conversation from the talk page?  Some time ago I added to the conversation here with some information that one of the main editors here, Levine2112, was engaging in some unscrupulous, or at least exceedingly sloppy, editorial practices, including plagiarism.  Isn't it important to maintain a visible record of that?  Part of what has been deleted was this:
Please see the archive at the top for old conversations. This page was getting too long, and it is common to archive old discussions. All the old information is there. Jokestress 23:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for archiving, Jokestress. It was getting long. As for the plagiarism charge, you can go back and see that I was quoting from sources which I referenced via external linking. RubyQ, however, kept deleting these references. The sentence or two in question have long since been rewritten and worked into the article (by myself and others) and appear in an even more original manner than my mere quoting of it. Often times, we just need a starting point, and a quote from a reliable source is a great beginning. RubyQ's point in declaring "plagiarism" was merely diversionary - similar to the tactics of Barrett himself. See, I had inserted a valid point about Barrett into this article which RubyQ didn't want to appear here but had no justifiable reason for deleting. So RubyQ resorted to attacking me, the editor. This is ironically similar to how Barrett attacks then sues for libel when there is rebuttal. And when he can't justify his libel claim in court, he returns to his computer and attacks some more... all the while diverting form the issues at hand... That he failed his board certification. That he pays himself and his cronies from the non-profit NCAHF fund to act as a expert witnesses. That he claims to be a medical expert and has failed his board certification. That he claims to be a legal expert, but has only attended a couple of semester of legal correspondence school. Et cetera. Et cetera. Levine2112 01:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk page being edited 

message: * A cursory look at Quackwatch and related web sites shows that the information is not kept up to date. An exemple is the page  where he reports the accusations made by Aetna in their countersuit against Cavitat Medical Technologies. Not only is there no information about the fact that the Aetna countersuit was thrown out by the judge  since Aetna was unable to prove their allegations, but Barrett did not remove any of the unproven allegations. Innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent ? In this particular case Barrett seems to favor guilty even if the charges are thrown out of court...
::Dr. Barrett responds: I have reported that Aetna's counterclaim was dismissed. The report is on https://www.casewatch.net/civil/cavitat/counterclaim.shtml It was not dismissed for lack of evidence or inability to prove what it said. Every assertion it said was backed by adequate documentation. Sbinfo 01:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dr. Barrett responds: I manage 22 sites with more than 3000 pages. The posting or revision date is at the bottom of each page, so it is obvious when they were written. I do the best I can to keep pages up-to-date. I may overlook something once in a while, but I have never deliberately failed to update a page in order for an unwarranted criticism to remain. I wish the same were true for the people who are libeling me. Sbinfo 01:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

text: NATTO, this is a valid point and a honest critique. Do you think you could expand upon it within the article to make the point clear to the reader? If you could cite examples, that would be a nice bonus. Levine2112 06:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Levine, I have posted information on the issue under the sub-heading Obsolete information. I am sure it can be improved with numerous other examples. Keeping obsolete information on Quackwatch can a) be a source of misinformation b) be prejudicial to an organisation or a person. NATTO 06:43, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I must agree with NATTO here. I see no original research. He only gathered information from a verifiable source. This is what we do at Wikipedia. Levine2112 18:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since David D. has failed to reply. I will re-instate the posting on Obsolete information. I am sure it can be improved and I invite other editors to do so but please do not simply delete.NATTO 22:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Information on Barrett's web sites is not up to date 

message: Here's more from Paul Hartal:
Dated December 22, 1999, the Harvard affiliated Massachusetts General Hospital's Neurology Web Forum published on the Internet an article under the title :"PAC" Money for "quackwatch". It reveals that "the FDA and the Pharmaceutical Advertising Counsel ("PAC"), which represents some 35 major drug companies, have formed and co-founded a corporation under a joint letterhead, calling itself the National Council Against Health Fraud ("NCAHF")." Stephen Barrett, MD, who publishes "Quackwatch" on line, William Jarvis, MD, and others, are paid by PAC " to publicly discredit as unscientific or unknown any of all viable herbs, vitamins, homeopathic remedies or non-allopathic therapies, particularly those that are proven to have the most promise and present the greatest threat to the PAC members".
:Dr. Barrett responds: The "article" to which you refer was a posting to a bulletin board. The statement is a pack of lies. Neither Quackwatch not NCAHF has ever received any money from the FDA or the Pharmaceutical Advertising Council (PAC). My only connection with the PAC was as a reviewer of a grant request that it had made to the FDA in the 1980s. I recommended that the FDA not give the grant because members of the PAC had engaged in false advertising. In a recent deposition, Tim Bolen, one of the people I am suing for libel, admitted that his statements that Quackbusters are directed and funded by a drug-industry entity was something he made up. When asked to identify the entity, he replied that there was none. Sbinfo 01:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dr. Barrett responds: Your comment explains why I have felt it necessary to file libel suits. Sbinfo 01:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

text: A post on a web forum is a completely unreliable source. Once again, we need to stick to court documents, because it is clear that Barrett's detractors have published all kinds of unverified claims. Jokestress 06:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't from a forum. I am not claiming anything nor have I added this information to the article. I am merely putting it out there to start more research. Levine2112 06:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please re-read what you posted, which clearly says it originated on a forum and he is repeating it. This kind of stuff should be removed immediately per WP:BLP. If you want to start a dossier of unsubstantiated rumors, don't do it here. This kind of stuff is not supposed to be posted on Wikipedia. On controversial topics like this, just grabbing crap off the internet is not acceptable. We need to have this very carefully sourced. Please limit statements and facts to published books, published legal proceedings, and that kind of high-quality reference. Jokestress 06:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FDA and PAC: The Answer to Quackwatch's Funding? 

message: I note that Fyslee has altered the postings recently made by Stephen Barrett under the username sbinfo. Hopefully this is not going to become habitual. I can only imagine the results if everyone decided to go an alter or highlight postings of other editors for whatever reason.08:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My minor edits did not change the meaning of anything and were done in all sincerity. Refactoring of talk pages is allowed and can occasionally be in order to make things more clear or easier to read. Barrett is relatively new here and had forgotten to sign many of his entries, so I did it for him. Standard practice. The minor highlighting was done first to make clear who was posting, but then I added the missing sigs. Since the article is about Barrett, his statements here are significant and deserved the minor highlighting, which doesn't change the meaning of anything. No harm, misrepresentation, or deception was involved or intended. -- Fyslee 09:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing or altering the posting of some else on the talk page 

message: Reading the numerous posting of Sbinfo ( presumably Dr. Barrett as per Fyslee and Jokestress ) that have been inserted into the talk page in between other postings, it seems that the judges who find against him or the NCAHF are always wrong... However when a judge find against one of his targets he quickly accept the verdict as correct and post as many of the court transcript and documents he can on his web sites for all to see. He even post documents that are offered in evidence by the side he supports, even if the judge rules against them in the end.... Interestingly he does not post any documents when the rulings do not go along with his views.NATTO 21:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that appears to be the case. Negrete and Bolen also put the same selective spin on things, which is why we need to rely on court documents and/or published reports form disinterested parties only. Both sides are making arguments for their POV. Our job here is to source everything carefully in order for the article to be neutral. Jokestress 21:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course the article needs to be well referenced and preferably not edited by persons who themselves belong directly or indirectly to Quackwatch to avoid conflict of interest. This article is not about Tim Bolen or Carlos Negrete. When the information provided on their site is corroborated then it is perfectly acceptable.NATTO 21:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If editors with specific POVs (like you) are citing reliable sources for their additions, there's no need for anyone to recuse themselves from editing. I assume good faith towards you and everyone here, and I expect the same from you. Jokestress 21:55, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The judge is wrong : Barrett 

message: The list of references is getting longer and longer, adding bulk to the article. It seems much more efficient to add the link to the reference in the text. This way readers can access the reference as they read without having to scroll down the bottom each time.NATTO 00:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Footnotes and endnotes are standard practice here. The reason for footnotes is for those who print a copy, etc., where the text itself would be lost if not in note form. The superscripts are also less obtrusive for those who do not want to read the notes. Jokestress 00:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Jokestress, that may be so but the reference list is now almost as long as the article itself. I have seen other articles on Wikipedia who do not use a reference list and simply, and more efficiently, put the relevant link in the article. Readers who do not want to look at the reference, do not have to. Since you have taken upon yourself to restructure the article, I am pointing this out. NATTO 01:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On controversial biographies of living people, it is essential to source all negative statements per WP:BLP. I have worked on a lot of these kinds of biographies, and it is necessary to avoid WP:OFFICE. Jokestress 01:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding a long list of reference 

message: Reference no. 22 doesn't lead anywhere and needs to be fixed. -- Fyslee 21:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks to Jokestress for fixing it. -- Fyslee 16:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Defective reference

message: I'd like to see documentation for precisely what claims to expertise have been made by Dr. Barrett. I know he has made some, but this page is assuming alot of things which he hasn't claimed, and we need to get it right.
Let's delimit the claims issue:
#What do people think he has claimed?
#What do his attackers accuse him of claiming?
#What has he actually claimed?
#What areas can correctly be described as his areas of expertise?
Let's get verifiable documentation to use in the article. Right now a lot of opinions are being discussed, but that's not good enough for the article.
My outline above can form the basis for a section on his expertise, and the viewpoints on it.
-- Fyslee 17:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When people question Dr. Barrett they are attackers when Dr. Barrett's questions people those people are quacks!--MD1954 17:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds suspiciously like a personal attack or ridicule. Please assume good faith and stay on topic here. Fyslee 18:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly it does not address the original question.  I think that question is a good start to try and get everyone on the same page. there is no way any concesus will be reached if people are not willing to play the game. David D. (Talk) 18:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Actual claims to expertise made by Barrett

message: I had not heard of LaSalle, and I went to grad school in Chicago. From a Tucson Weekly article on this institution:
:But he may have indeed "earned" a law degree from LaSalle Extension University. You might be familiar with LaSalle, the original diploma mill--they used to advertise their "Correspondence Institution" on matchbooks and the backs of comic books, with a grinning graduate and the headline "Look who's smiling now!"
:Those ads included a disclaimer: "No state accepts any law home study course, including LaSalle's, as sufficient education to qualify for admission to practice law." 
*Nintzel, Jim (May 1, 1997). Look Who's Smiling Now! Tucson Weekly
::It is not clear, but I wonder if this author is conflating LaSalle Extension with the other LaSalle in Louisiana? There is evidence that LaSalle Extension advertised heavily, but it does appear to have been accredited for a while. However we discuss this should probably be in the bullet on legal expertise.
:::More info:
:::LaSalle Extension University
:::TYPE: University / College
:::COUNTRY: United States
:::REGION: Illinois
:::LANGUAGE: English
:::INSTITUTION ID: 01-50683 (Last edited on 2006/05/16 16:36:25 GMT-6 )
:::Accredited distance university. Founded 1908, closed 1980. Illinois School Code #6110025. FAFSA ID 00732100. Souce: Illinois State Board of Education Private Business and Vocational Schools 8-31-05 
:::We should probably include something about this school. Jokestress 18:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On further research, there have been three unrelated LaSalle Universities: One in Philadelphia, One formerly in Chicago (that Barrett took courses from), and one formerly in Louisiana. The one Barrett took courses from was closed in 1980 following LaSalle Extension University v. Federal Trade Commission, 627 F.2d 481 (DC Cir. 1980). Jokestress 18:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the "Look Who's Smiling Now!" ad. Jokestress 19:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  LaSalle Extension University 

message: I found the CV that list Dr. Barrett's part-time & half-time positions. 
http://www.mlmwatch.org/10Bio/biovitae.html
I am only showing this because it was 'implied' that I had lied about it.--MD1954 20:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You wrote that false charge above, but I didn't reply. I didn't feel it was worth it, and then I forgot. Well, now, since you're repeating it here, I am asking you to document it. Provide the URL for my edit on this talk page where I have in any way implied or charged you with any impropriety. I was just curious and asked a simple question! Sheesh! Now provide that proof. -- Fyslee 20:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not provide any names.  Felling guilty? Anyway I might be off for awhile.  Getting ready to go to a far away land with a lot of bad people (again).  So maybe I'll stop in here again before I go away next week.  Been fun!--MD1954 21:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You were discussing it with me and replying directly to me, so what else could I think? -- Fyslee 21:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dr. Barrett's CV