Talk:Nuestro Himno

message: Changed the controvery as it was pretty POV. Said that it was flat out a bastardization, I think some would diagree. Cameron 05:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch. I was trying to follow up on somebody's suggestion and was not as careful as I should have been in my rephrasing. Thanks!--Rockero 06:05, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversy

message: Can someone include the spanish lyrics? Also, it is difficult to provide direct translation from enlish-to-spanish-back-to-enlish, might want to mention that. -btbd 4-28-06
:Got it taken care for you Stephen 20:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've managed to source the first verse as based on the Snow translation of 1919.  Can anybody confirm whether the second verse is novel, or whether it appears elsewhere? Also, the translation looks like a computer did it. "the flame of battle in step with liberty through the night it was said it was being defended"??  That's not very accurate (fulgor is closer to "brilliance" or "brightness" than to "flame") or idiomatic.  Can a native Spanish-speaker provide a better translation? -- Victor Lighthill 21:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lyrics

message: Worth noting in the controversy section - the fact that the song is debuting amid the immigration controversy in the United States. And also the fact that while there are other translations of the song in existence, this appears to be the first major studio recording and commercial release of such a translation. These two issues are big parts of the controversy. --Jtalledo (talk) 12:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversy section

message: The song is not a translation, it is a parody. 
The Original Star Spangled Banner:
O say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
On the shore dimly seen thro' the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected, now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner: O, long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash'd out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
O thus be it ever when free-men shall stand
Between their lov'd home and the war's desolation;
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land
Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserv'd us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: “In God is our trust!”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
:Check out the article on [Parody]. It doesn't mean what you seem to think it does. To be parody, you not only need to change the words, you need to use ridicule.  There isn't much evidence that the intent or effect is to mock the Key's original. -- Victor Lighthill 05:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Parody not Translation

message: I put the original Francis Scott Key version of the song on the site, and another user deleted it because he called in "Vandalism."
Vandalism based on what?
:Here are the changes made by User:Clydeman:   As you can see, they are deliberately POV and unencyclopedic in nature.  The lyrics to "The Star-Spangled Banner" don't belong in this article either.  I reverted User:Clydeman's first contributions and then the subsequent ones because they were similarly POV in nature.  --Randy 20:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not going to debate the reversion - I wan't involved in this article at the time and didn't see the change.  However I have to at least ask why you believe the original lyrics to the Star Spangled Banner don't belong here?  A link to the appropriate Wikipedia article certainly includes that information, and I can accept that.  I do wonder, however, if a side-by-side comparison of English translation of Nuestro Himno and the Star Spangle Banner is a good idea, especially as the criticisms often cite the non-literal nature of the move to Nuestro Himno from the original English.  What do you all think? --ABQCat 06:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we had a nice three-column setup, that would be totally worth it.--Rockero 07:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd vote for a 4-column setup, with Key's original, Snow's 1919 Bureau of Education translation, the Nuestro Himno version, and the English re-translation. Probably wouldn't fit, though. --Victor Lighthill 08:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what value the 1919 translation would bring except to show that Nuestro Himno isn't the same.  I think the contrast that is perhaps most important as it deals most with the controversy is that of the english translation and the original.  What was your rationale for including it?  I'm just curious. --ABQCat 08:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd support whatever 3 or 4 column setup you guys would like to include, but the way User:Clydeman did it isn't the way we should approach it.  --Randy 11:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Original Version called "Vandalism"

message: This article says: "Nuestro Himno" is a Spanish translation of "The Star-Spangled Banner" 
:It is flat out not a translation. It is a different song. 
This article is in error. Compare yourself. One song is about a battle of the War 1812, the other is not.
User:Clydeman
::While the War of 1812 provides the setting and the context of the US national anthem, the song is not about the War itself. Rather, it is about the flag, and whether or not it "yet wave[s]". In this sense, the translation is accurate.--Rockero 22:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Look at Key's Lyrics: How much do you see of it in Nuestro Himno? It NOT a translation, it is a parody. The first Spanish translation came out over 150 years ago. "In a sense" sounds rather weak. User:Clydeman
"Parody" is a bit harsh. I think that the world "translation" is wrong, and should be replaced by "version". dposse 04:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: This article is in error

message: Below is a REAL translation, not a parody. Read it and compare it to the Nuestra Himno parody.
La bandera estrellada
Traducción por Guillermo F. Hall, de Guatemala
Oh, decid: ¿podeis ver, al rayar de la aurora lo
Que vimos anoche orgullosos flotar?
La estrellada bandera, tremolando altanera, encumbrada en
La torre y excitando luchar!
Y a la luz de la roja, fulgurante centella, la 
Bandera ondeaba, ondeaba más bella;
Y a través de la densa humareda inflamada, 
Con qué orgullo miramos la bandera ondear!
¡El pendón de la Patria, la bandera estrellada, 
Encumbrada en la almena convidando a luchar!
Oh! decid, ¿todavía contemplais la bandera, 
La estrellada bandera, 
Sobre suelo de libres que defienden su hogar?
A través de la niebla, de la mar a la orilla
Iracundo enemigo nos atisba a marchar.
¿Qué es aquello que ondula, que flamea y simula 
Un enjambre de estrellas refulgiendo en el mar?
Ya del alba recoge la primer llamarada;
Ya se oculta en la niebla, ya aparece inflamada;
Ya ostentando sus glorias se refleja en el río;
Ya sus franjas y estrellas nos deslumbran al par.
¡El pendón de la Patria, tremolando bravio 
Y flamenado en la almena nos incita a luchar!
¡El pendón de la Patria, la estrellada bandera, 
Tremolando altanera 
Sobre suelo de libres que defienden su hogar!
¿Dónde está la falange enemiga y aleve
Que con vana porfía se atreviera a jurar
Que al fragor de la guerra, en la lucha que aterra, 
Perderíamos patria y familia y hogar?
¡Con su sangre lavara la verguenza inferida 
De su paso a la hulla por la tierra querida!
Encontrar no podría un refugio el taimado, 
Que en su fuga oprobiosa la pudiera salvar
Del terror de esa fuga, del morir angustiado 
Con el ansia del triunfo que no pudo alcanzar.
Mientras tanto tremola la estrellada bandera
Y triunfante, altanera,
Sobre suelo de libres nos custodia el hogar
Siempre así, cuando altivo se levante el patriota 
Defendiendo su suelo, su familia y su hogar, 
La radiante victoria lo circunde de gloria, 
¡Y bendiga al Eterno que lo hiciera triunfar!
Y pues Dios nos asiste y la lucha es tan santa,
Y el pendón de la Patria nos alienta y levanta,
Conservemos la Patria, el hogar que adoramos,
Y adoptamos por lema, sacrosanto y sin par:
¡"Sea Dios nuestro guía; en su apoyo confiamos!"
¡Justiciera es la causa que nos manda a luchar,
Y el pendón de la Patria, la estrellada bandera,
Tremolando altanera,
Sobre suelo de libres nos conserve el hogar!
:Notice it says "our guide Is God" and "defend our home" User:Clydeman
When it comes to translating languages, what is a "REAL translation" is subjective.  Believe me, many people would argue that this version is not completely accurate either.  But, any way, none of the producers have claimed that "Nuestro Himno" is a "translation" of the "Star-Spangled Banner".  Even the name of the song is different! God duly noted but fail to see the point -Rafanetx 19:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: This is a REAL translation

message: "Their opinion is that using the song for any purpose other than to honor the nation, and especially in such a way as it is being used, takes away from the song’s sacred nature."
This line should probably be reworded (or simply rewritten) to avoid giving the impression that Wikipedia is stating the song's sacredness as a fact; make it more clear that this is part of the opinion in question. (And provide a citation, to avoid violating WP:AWW.) -Silence 23:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sacred?

message: "War, war without truce against who would attempt to blemish the honor of the fatherland! 
War, war! The patriotic banners drench in waves 
of blood" 
"And may your temples, palaces and towers crumble in horrid crash,
and ruins remain"   Those vicious lyrics of the Mexican Anthem is directed against Americans, folks. -User:Clydeman
:How egocentric.--TheAlphaWolf 00:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please only use this talkpage to discuss the content of the article. Other discussions do not belong here. Thanks, --Rockero 03:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mexican National Anthem calls for Violence Against Americans

message: I reverted back to what I believe is the official punctuation in line 6 of the second stanza, removing the comma between "gente" and "sigue" and eliminating the exclamation points.  Sir Anonymous understates the difference the comma makes.  Without it, a statement is made, "My people fight on," or "My people continue struggling."  The insertion of the comma changes it to an injunction to keep fighting.  Sir Anonymous must not know enough Spanish to realize that if a command were intended the Spanish verb form would have to be in the imperative mood; "Seguid."  "Sigue" is indicative mood, present tense, third person [collective] singular. It is impossible to translate that as a command.  Therefore, there should be no comma.  This is assuming that the lyrics given at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5369145 and elsewhere are correct and official.  (Good question re. copyright.) Yopienso 17:24, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yopienso, "sigue" is also imperative. A common chant is "¡no pare!, ¡sigue, sigue!". it's just singular rather than plural. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 01:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: One little comma

message: I don't think "remix" can be correct - a remix implies making a modified version of a specific recording by a particular artist. This isn't the case here, so I changed it to "version".
I'm also dubious about "hip-hop style". Admittedly I haven't listened to the song closely but it doesn't seem to have much in common with most hip-hop I've heard. I actually prefer the original and more neutral "Spanish-language interpetation", and I propose reverting it to that unless someone objects.
:I think I'll fool around a little with that and see what I can hcome up with --Node 11:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article also fails to mention that the translation uses traditional Iberian Spanish rather than a Latin American standard. --Node 11:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bear in mind, many/most Bible translations use the vosotros form, even in América. —Wiki Wikardo 00:33, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Hip-hop style remix?

message: A great part of this article has been literally taken from: here where rewritting ir prohibited. So, this is incompatible with GFDL license. Retestsm 11:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyrighted info

message: Should this article not be at Nuestro himno, following correct Spanish titlecase? —Wiki Wikardo 00:33, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move?