Talk:Caste/Archive 1

message: Why is there not any information of the early influences of the Aryans on the caste system? It is the material children are learning in school. Is it the lack of knowledge on the subject by wikipedia account holders or is it just not considered in-signifigant to the standards of learning for the educational purposes of wikipedia? I am just wondering if I overlooked it in the paragraphs. If someone could clear this up for me I would greatly appreciate it. <***Preceding comment added by User:Nuclear Theory***>
::The information is discussed in more detail on Indian Caste System. keep in mind that the Aryan theory is disputed and not fully proven. Please sign your posts with 4 tildes like this ~~~~ Hkelkar 00:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aryans Caste System 

message: If an educated foreigner were to relocate and live in India, what caste would they be placed in? Would any ethnic Indians be in this caste, as well?
foreigners are traditionally thought of in the past as belonging to the dalit - the classless society
:If memory serves, Westerners (particularly English) are held to be Brahmin, Africans are held to be dalits, returning people of Indian descent keep the caste they had in India (hence the need for many Indian men to return to India to find a nice girl of the right caste) - but for the rest, I think Indians either have not put any thought into it or they guess on a case-by-case basis. But yes, I agree that this needs further looking at.  mattabat 20060205 17:00 AEDST
::Few White caucasians who convert to Hindu religion adopt [Brahmin] surnames like Shastri or Sharma, I am not sure if people would be as accomodating if a person of African descent did it ?:-)))RaveenS 14:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Foreigners in India 

message: The skeletal and other human remains of the great cities of Mohinjodaro and Harappa(now in Pakistan) which were supposed to be thriving cities more than 5000 years ago(carbon dating evidence) has thrown out conclusive evidence to refute the Aryan invasion theory and that the north Indians of todays India(off springs of so called Aryans) defeated and killed Dravidians(south Indians) three thousand years ago.The genetic analysis of these human remains shows that the type of people who lived in those areas more than five thousand years ago is exactly the same as the type of people you find in North India now.There was infact a good mingling of people with several gene types.The Aryan invasion theory was just a ploy highlighted by the British to create a rift between north Indians and south Indians,just as they did utilizing the already existing divide between Hindus and Muslims,Dalits and higher castes ,so as to ensure that colonists could never be defeated by ensuring that Indians would be busy fighting amongst themselves.Tamil political parties play the Dravidian card to be in power by propogating Hindi/sanskrit hateread and not sparing the so called north Indian Gods like Krishna and Rama,but they fail to understand  that most of the names of citiesin Tamilnadu, like Rameshwaram were named after Rama (rather the cities came into existance due to Rama) and the names of the most ardent sanskrit haters like Karunanidhi and Dayanidhi Maran carry sanskrit names,which made Karunanidhi,name his son after Stalin,as he found there could be no Tamil name that is truely Tamil and not resembling sanskrit atall.
   
U-hu, scientists have proved that higher caste Indians carry European genes. Just look at them and it's obvious.
1337
::No, AIT has been refuted as garbage. AMT is being debated, but AIT is a deliberate lie.Shiva's Trident 07:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aryan invasion theory refuted 

message: Most of the links to articles on specific caste groups are erroneous. Some go to articles on persons, some on moslem groups like shia, some are even worse.
Rudolf 1922 22:17, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Please lend a hand w better links, if you can :) Sam [Spade] 22:20, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: Yes, you're right. There is no caste based on religion; all religion have all castes. In some religion esp Islam, some people immediately drops their Hindu caste after conversion.  My friend who is Jacobite says it is a denomination (he belongs to another caste). There are also Christian brahmins and etc. I didn't fix it as I had a conflict with the whole content sometimes ago. --Rrjanbiah 04:38, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  The above (mostly) seem to be sects among Christians, rather than casts. But there is a caste structure among Christians in India, and I know for sure that this is true at least among Catholics of Goa. It is parallel to the Hindu caste system (Catholics were almost all converts from Hinduism, in Goa ... across the caste divide) but there are some differences. Among the Catholics of Goa, the caste divisions include Brahmin, Chardo (considered to be the equivalent of Kshatriya), Sudir (or Sudra) and Christian Mhar/Chambar (traditional weaver/cobbler), etc. Dr K S Singh's series on the 'People of India' also has an entire volume devoted to castes of Goa, including among Catholics. --fredericknoronha 00:10, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This can't be right 

message: * Born again
* Catholic
* CMS
* CSI
* Evangelical
* Jacobite
* Marthoma
* Nadar
* Protestant
* Syrian
:: The above (mostly) seem to be sects among Christians, rather than casts. But there is a caste structure among Christians in India, and I know for sure that this is true at least among Catholics of Goa. It is parallel to the Hindu caste system (Catholics were almost all converts from Hinduism, in Goa ... across the caste divide) but there are some differences. Among the Catholics of Goa, the caste divisions include Brahmin, Chardo (considered to be the equivalent of Kshatriya), Sudir (or Sudra) and Christian Mhar/Chambar (traditional weaver/cobbler), etc. Dr K S Singh's series on the 'People of India' also has an entire volume devoted to castes of Goa, including among Catholics. --fredericknoronha 00:10, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian Castes 

message: I changed the subheading of 'Indian Caste' to 'Hindu Caste' perhaps an even better change would be 'Hindu Cast in India'.  India has sizable populations of non-hindus, and it is not factually to paint this as an 'indian' caste but as a Hindu one. --ShaunMacPherson 15:45, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quick Changes 

message: There are numerous societies, however, in which immutable caste is combined with a very high degree of social mobility. Furthermore, the concept of caste cannot be limited to societies in which caste is legislated, such as the southern states of the United States until 1965, since the caste distinction separating Negroes (now called African Americans) from all other United States residents is no less forceful now in the lives of the members of this caste than in the past.  Other examples of caste combined with social mobility: traditional Igbo society in Nigeria; Twareg society at present; Japan.  Although frequently caste is associated with occupation, especially when first instituted, caste identification and enforcement has often survived the complexities of modern economies.
In course of time the difference of vocation, and the greater or less exposure to the scorching influence of the tropical sky, added, no doubt, to a certain. admixture of shudra blood, especially in the case of the common people, seem to have produced also in the Aryan population, different shades of complexion, which greatly favored a tendency to rigid class-restrictions originally awakened and continually fed by the lot of the servile race.
The word occurs in the Veda in the latter sense, but it is used there to mark the distinction, not between the three classes of the Aryan community, but between them on the one hand and a dark-colored hostile people on the other. The latter, called Dgsas or Dasyus, consisted, no doubt, of the indigenous tribes, with whom the Aryans had to carry on a continual struggle for the possession of the land.
(The state of Tamil Nadu reserves 69% of its college admission seats instead of 50% as mandated by the Central Government)
:The above is a variety of deleted text from thruout the article. All of it was deleted due to being POV, but is likely still factually accurate.  Please have a look and see if you can reword it and find a place for it here or elsewhere. Thanks, 
:Sam Spade  12:30, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  deleted text 

message: The current page is organised horribly.  I suggest that the Indian caste sytem should be put onto a separate page as that would make this page much easier to read. --Lesouris 04:43, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate page? 

message: This page is mixed up. The problem it starts with a word "Caste" which is a Eurocentric view of the world, and used to map MOSTLY Indian social situation. If we are going to discuss the Indian social system, let's use indigenous terms only (translations do no merit). So, let us use - varna, jaati, brahmin, kshatriya, etc. 
In that context - we can add details about origins, transitions, current situation, etc. 
It is totally inappropriate to use the unenlightened use of a Euro-label as a Wikipedia entry point for Indian "varna-ashram-vyavastha". 
As someone mentioned, all societies have division of labors and various rights and privileges. These are modern-day castes, with university education deciding what caste the person enters into. While not by birth, they correate directly to standard of living and rights and privileges. 
Furthermore, this page does not take into account two parallel modern phenomena: 
1) Intermarriages and modern/urban changes in India
2) Global professions as "castes" due to extended education leading to limited mobility, lock-in (good & bad) and steep loss of livelihood in certain cases (e.g. well paid professional --> grocery clerk)
===Radical demerger===
I moved some text to Indian caste system, List of Indian castes and wiktionary. Some text from the old version has been lost, notably material to do with religious and perhaps economic/functional aspects, which should be integrated into Indian caste system by someone more familiar with those aspects. I just wanted to make a start on un-mixing the topic.Rd232 18:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Totally mixed-up page 

message: I moved some text to Indian caste system, List of Indian castes and wiktionary. Some text from the old version has been lost, notably material to do with religious and perhaps economic/functional aspects, which should be integrated into Indian caste system by someone more familiar with those aspects. I just wanted to make a start on un-mixing the topic.Rd232 18:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Radical demerger

message: I have added this section 220.247.240.241 16:18, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sri Lankan caste system 

message: I have mentioned the caste system in Rwanda, Burundi and eastern Congo. There are obviously other similar systems in the rest of Africa. 220.247.240.241 16:18, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The possible classification of the massacres in Rwanda and Burundi as 'Caste Warfare' rather than 'ethnic warfare' has been removed, this viewpoint being identified as one of 'proponents of caste' by the editor (65.78.17.138). I have removed this reference, as it is POV. The editor's other contributions indicate a casteist position.220.247.229.123 13:36, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  African Caste 

message: I have readded the religious theory about the caste system. It is exceedingly important for it to remain here because it tell us about the origin of the caste system. Kindly do to revert it back, otherwise the whole article will appear foolish. Further, the Vedic arguments are apt for this article, and not for the Veda article.
Cygnus_hansa 09:34, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Readded 

message: :Caste-based politics have strong roots in many Indian states, as most politicians have an inability or unwillingness to discuss economic and social issues in any rational manner.
If that isn't POV, then Germany was neutral in WWII. I'm not really in a mood to delve into this already disputed article, nor do I know enough to really touch it anyway, but this could use a good cleaning with at least some minor attempts at NPOV... FireWorks 03:57, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: I removed the following paragraph which was formerly the third in the "Modern Perceptions of Caste" section. It's thoroughly anti-reservation POV which elaborates on the anti-reservation arguments already included in the second paragraph.
:Proponents of Affirmative Action or Reservations usually point to the centuries old system of social and economic reservation, despite the fact that India was under foreign Christian and Islamic rule for centuries and all Hindu castes were oppressed. Opponents of Affirmative Action tend to say that one needs to look to the future, not the past, if society is to prosper. The quota system in India resulted in further balkanization and stratification of the Hindu society by law, unlike during the Muslim rule (Mughal Dynasty or Nizam Dynasty) or British Raj, when there was discrimination against all Hindus. In the US, there was state mandated segregation imposed by courts of law, which necessitated Affirmative Action. Unlike Affirmative Action in the US, Reservations in India have no uniform basis. It is not difficult to see that Affirmative Action or Reservations or Quotas may be impossible beyond a certain point - society may not generate sufficient wealth to maintain such a social mechanism.
Touchstone 18:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Quota POV 

message: To make a beginning we have to start somewhere. Let me start it thisway: Most schools in India while trying to admit a child to the school require an applicatiom form to be filled by the parents or Guardian. This form will have a column for caste and another for religion without exception. Now, how to get rid of this is something to be thought of carefuly and implemented with ofcourse, Government's help. If we can succeed in this we can proceed from here on. NANDA 59.92.134.54 11:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Caste is a form of collusion to divide and rule in India and can be abolished when 85% of the marriages are inter-caste and inter-religious.Known 08:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Why should we get rid of a mention of caste. Americans mention race. Muslims mention whether you are descended from Mohamed or not.Netaji 20:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  HOW to abolish castes ? 

message: India is Democratic and Republic country.  Prime Minister of India and Constitutional Head The President of India greet yearly more than 20 times on various religious days such as Holi, Dassera, Deepawali, Ide, Moharam, Buddha Jayanti, Mahaveer Jayanti and Narvan Days. Indian Parliament has enacted many laws on religion and even help the Muslims for Hajj aainst the principle of Koran. Kumbh Mellas are orgainsed with the help of Indian Government. There are separate laws for marriage for Hindus, Mushlims, etc., and no uniformity. The Constitutuion of India clearly say about scientific thinking and in actual practice the President offers Official Prayers such Ajmer Chaddar and Amritsar Visit. I request the reader of this talk to press the Government of India to separate the state and religion. vkvora2001@yahoo.co.in   vkvora 16:11, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separation of State and Religion 

message: I propose deleting that section as it has too much detail, personal opinions and is unsourced. Unless I hear objections I will do so shortly.--Pranathi 04:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  delete purity section 

message: WARNING! Propaganda websites aimed against Brahmin caste
Removed the above comment. Reason: Caste system is akin to racism. Brahmins should not be offended by these sites, they should rather see them as information that people that oppose caste-ism would offer readers. Ofcourse any type of information related to caste is bound to offend one or the other. The warning is not necessary. Readers are wiser to figure out whats offensive and whats not. Thx
:Very difficult to do while Brahmins are being ethnically cleansed by the lower castes from Jharkhand, Tamil Nadu, by muslims in Kashmir etc, don;t you think?Netaji 06:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed comment 

message: Too much and too complicated, need to simplify article with content moved to appropriate section. Most of should be merged with Indian caste system. RaveenS 17:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fixing this page 

message: This whole article has been Vandalised by High caste hindus with an objective to cover up their misdeeds. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yeditor (talk • contribs) .
This page is getting repeatedly changed by Bhramins( upper castes) who have an ulterior motive in covering up the opression of lower castes. I have reversed the anti quota POV and pro Bhramin POV from modern developments--Yeditor 05:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC
For an Authentic account of India's untouchables refer National Geographic article--Yeditor 05:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cover up operation 

message: is a confirmed sockpuppeteer. He is goes around with a variety of names and vandalises pages related to dalits and caste and fills them up with Hindu propoganda material. I am reversing all his edits--Yeditor 11:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do so and I"ll report you for vandalism. You already have a bad history on wikipedia (see Yeditor's talk page) and have been repeatedly warned for vandalizing other articles. I am watching you.Netaji 12:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  subhash bose 

message: There should be some kind of subarticle on the casta concept and paintings from the era of Spanish and Portuguese control of Latin America. This is a well-known area of Latin American art and there are whole books on the topic. The paintings seem to have been an attempt at a racial version of a biological taxonomy, purporting to show what different racial combinations looked like and assigning each a name. 
I am adding this issue to the Talk pages of three different related articles in hopes of prodding someone more knowledgeable to give this article a shot. I personally know only a little, having been introduced to the subject by a web site I've long since misplaced and an art exhibition here in Dallas (probably at the Meadows Museum of Art, which specializes in Latin-American art).Lawikitejana 20:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Casta'' in  Latin America 

message: The assertion that Dalitstan is anti-Hindu is pretty dubious.  It for sure is anti-Brahmin and anti-Casteist, but I don't think it's anti-Hindu.  Mar de Sin Speak up! 21:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dalitstan is down right now, but it was definitely an anti-Hindu site. I read it a couple of times and they made caricatures accusing Hindus (not just Brahmins) of various fake crimes like "drinking blood" and "conspiring with Jews to take over the world". They said "Hindu and Hindutva are the same", itself a blatantly anti-Hindu accusation.Shiva's Trident 21:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Anti-Hindu" is a very wide term and in the way it is being used here is only a conversation stopper.One should accept the "Anti-Hindu" bias as long as it is verifiable from reliable sources and not any individual author on Wikipedia.TerryJ-Ho 01:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

text: "Hindutva","fascist","RSS agent", "revisionist" and other words are also conversation stoppers.One should accept the "Hindutva" bias as long as it is verifiable from reliable sources and not any individual author on Wikipedia. Bakaman Bakatalk 02:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, if we are to go down that slippery slope, websites that do cite verifiable sources in their articles like Jihadwatch.org and dhimmiwatch.org should be allowed :).Shiva's Trident 09:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Plus, what about anti-Semitic sites like www.jewwatch.org? They cite "reliable sources" too? Hmmmmm???Shiva's Trident 09:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then cite your sources! :) Mar de Sin Speak up! 00:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Hindu 

message: Is there a list classifying Hindu names into their different castes? Especially into the 4 majour castes. Politis 16:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caste system and surnames 

message: tam brahmanamaham manye vritten hi bhavet dvijah Bakaman Bakatalk 00:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reading MAterial 

message: Doesn't labeling people by castes breed ASPD?
Known 11:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any facts to show such a relation?--Utinomen (talk) 22:09, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled 

message: Caste systems are not confined solely to tribal systems.  Latin America's caste system, for example, had nothing at all to do with clans or gens, simply race.  Japan also did not use tribal criteria. Tmangray 19:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is not much difference between race and tribe. Race is an artificial construct invented by 19th century Europeans to sugarcoat their ideas of tribalism.Rumpelstiltskin223 20:00, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is your WP:POINT? Rumpelstiltskin223 20:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just stated it.  Race and tribe are distinct terms and concepts. Tmangray 20:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Restricted to "Clans", "Gens" 

message: The entry on a Caste system in Pakistan is at the very least partly inaccurate. I am from Pakistan and while there are serious sectarian conflicts between different religious sects (e.g., Shia, Sunni, etc...) and problems between majority and minority tribal groups, these problems have a different root than the Caste system. I have tried to edit this entry three times now but someone keeps reverting it back to the original - incorrect - version with zero discussion. I hope through discussion this entry can be changed to something that represents the true situation in Pakistan. 
My problems with the stated definition of caste issues in Pakistan are as follows: jobs are not prescribed or forbidden to different tribal/religious groups; although obviously poorer people tend to have more menial jobs. Intermarriage may occur within tribal groups but this is not the same thing as a caste system.  It is rather that minority groups tending to marry within the same group - this happens anywhere in the world - including Scotland, where I currently live. 
I have the following problems with the entry on Pakistan:
1. Calling Ahmadiyya, Mohajirs (NOT Mojahirs) and Punjabis, etc... different castes is wrong. They are either from different provinces in the country (analogous to the different nations in the UK) or from different religious sects. This is equivalent to describing e.g., Catholics, Protestants, Scottish and the Welsh in the UK as being different Castes.  
2. Furthermore, Mukhtaran Mai is not from a low caste - she is from  the Gujar tribe, a poor tribe - the men who attacked her were the village elders who came from a wealthier tribe known as the Mastoi. Mukhtar herself is a schoolteacher - not a "low" job by any description. 
3. The discussion of the Hudood ordinance here is totally irrelevant as it is a legal issue and nothing to do with any Caste system at all.
I hope this is reasonable and does not offend any one while still generating reasoned and logical debate.
Thanks,
Sraisa 20:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is there really a Caste System in Pakistan? 

message: It seems that some Indian Wikipedians have to own up to the fact that there is (at least partially) a racist aspect to their caste system.  Whether or not this racism existed before British rule, this racism does still exist today, and should be mentioned.  Chiss Boy 15:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What exactly is the "racist" aspect of the Hindu (not Indian) caste system? Each ethnic group has their own caste system and each ethnic group is essentially the same racially... so if a person of one caste discriminates against a person of another caste, they'd be discriminating against someone of their ethnicity/race. I think the word you're looking for discriminatory or bigoted and that only happens if a person thinks their caste is better than another like someone of an educated caste or a warrior caste looking down on someone of a manual labor or agricultural caste. [Special:Contributions/172.129.38.235|172.129.38.235]] (talk) 04:00, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

text: There seems to be some misunderstanding of the two epics here. Ram also murdered Shudrak, a "shudra" man for the "crime" of doing meditation with the aim of attaining Brahminhood (the guy was apparently unarmed and not a fighter by any means). And although Karna was made a king by Duryodhana, Draupadi denied him right to compete in her "swayambar" because of being a "sutaputra" (son of a charioteer). I believe a first hand reading of the two epics will help answer the questions above. Srays (talk) 04:45, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indian Caste System 

message: The definition of the word "Caste" is too enlarged. If one follows the extended definition of Caste, there is no  country in the world that does not have caste system. It should be used specifically  instead of as a common noun of the hierarchy. Korea is homogeneous country and there can not be racial discrimination characters like Indian Caste or Western racism in traditional hierarchy.And,the pre-modern hierarchy has totally disappeared in modern Korea society.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.157.75.134 (talk) 01:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Castes in Korea 

message: Someone may want to correct the tone in this section. I'd do it myself, but I'm pretty clueless on the topic.-Wafulz (talk) 03:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hinduism section 

message: *The article is not written in a neutral manner and breaks wikipedia policies.
*The article is heavily politicized and not written with a neutral political agenda.
*No original research The articles contains many "novel narrative or historical interpretations." It is heavily politicized, contains original research and citations are taken out of context for politicization. Several facts are uncited.
*Verifiability: I have checked the relevant books and certain citations and many do not verify and are fradualent.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vniop (talk • contribs) 06:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Urgent Neutral rewrite needed immediately 

message: Since the article on castes appears to be polysubjective, it may be a better idea to break it into several articles.  Personally, I feel that this article is a great example of why merging articles together can be, while on one hand a way to 'clean up' WP, it makes reading articles almost impossible.
With that being said, I would propose the following changes made to the article:
*Caste separated into a definition article with a functional summary of castes and the implications of a caste system.
*Etymology section
*Description of caste rules
*Summary of caste relations, linking to full articles for each.
My feeling is that the caste system article would benefit from a format like this, as in its current state it's almost unreadable.  redacting the article to the format may be a way to help it fit better into the WP:format, as well as making the article easier to site (in its current state, there are so many topics, there will undoubtedly be errors and needed citations regardless of how many rewrites are actually performed. Larshylarsh (talk) 05:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Overhaul 

message: This section is substandard, and there is little scholarly basis for dividing medieval society into the castes provided (mercenary?). There is certainly a fair bit that can be written about European caste systems -- specifically, the Patrician vs. Plebeian caste system in Rome, and noble/commoner dichotomy later on, but what's written here needs to go. Plus, the citation seems sort of questionable. For one, "mercenary" has never been a caste, at least in any European hierarchy. 195.27.20.35 (talk) 06:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobles constituded a caste, originally it was a warrior caste, but it redeveloped into a landlord, and further on to a general upper class including landlords and bureaucrats. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 17:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Were patricians actually a caste, or were they equivalent to clan chieftans? I think the problem with understanding caste is there is a multiplicity of interacting groupings and stratifications of people, all of which change over time. --Utinomen (talk) 22:10, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  European Castes 

message: I think biographies of people from Indian Origin for e.g. Swaraj Paul should disclose their castes. Casteism has been a covert mask for socio-economic collusion in India since 12th century. --Dr. Known-- (talk) 16:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caste is a must in all Indian Biographies 

message: ===Caste in the United States ===    
I have removed the following section.
:::   
:::Many, including W. Lloyd Warner, Gunnar Myrdal, and John Dollard, believe that there is a caste system in the United States based on the colour of a person’s skin. However, some hold that this relationship should not be referred to as a full-fledge caste system. Caste systems are supported by ritual, convention, and law. Status can influence and determine class, which also determines the caste system where a person belongs. Weber stressed that class, status, and political power relate and affect each other.   
    
:::It goes: Government, politicians, military, business people, farmers, immigrants.   
   
:::“Caste structure is an extreme form of status inequality in that relationships between the groups involved are said to be fixed and supported by ideology and/or law”.Hurst, Charles E. Social Inequality: Forms, Causes, and Consequences. Sixth Edition. In the US, membership in a specific caste is often hereditary, marriage within one’s caste is mandatory, mobility is impossible, and occupation is determined by caste position. Mobility is possible within one’s caste but not between castes. Race and ethnic stratification is evident throughout US caste systems. Each caste system must abide by specific codes of race relations in which certain behaviors and positions are expected by each group. Caste as metaphor for race relations was developed academically by Lloyd Warner 's “American Caste and Class”, Gunnar Myrdal 's An American Dilemma, and John Dollard 's Caste and Class in a Southern Town. Myrdal argued that “the scientifically important difference between the terms ‘caste’ and ‘class’… is … a relatively large difference in freedom of movement between groups”.Myrdal, Gunnar. 1944. An American Dilemma: The Negro Problem and Modern Democracy. New York: Harper and Brothers. 
The first line gives the impression that most people think America has a caste system, which is cleary false. While there may be classes, it's far from generally agreed that there is a caste syustem: I think this is an extremely minority viewpoint. There's no ideology keeping the classes apparat, and certainly no law, so even on Hurst's definition this is absurd. You can go for any job you wish, marriage between classes is perfectly common. In short, this section is ridiculous, hence why I moved it here. Larklight (talk) 19:19, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  America 

message: I have removed the following section.
:::   
:::Many, including W. Lloyd Warner, Gunnar Myrdal, and John Dollard, believe that there is a caste system in the United States based on the colour of a person’s skin. However, some hold that this relationship should not be referred to as a full-fledge caste system. Caste systems are supported by ritual, convention, and law. Status can influence and determine class, which also determines the caste system where a person belongs. Weber stressed that class, status, and political power relate and affect each other.   
    
:::It goes: Government, politicians, military, business people, farmers, immigrants.   
   
:::“Caste structure is an extreme form of status inequality in that relationships between the groups involved are said to be fixed and supported by ideology and/or law”.Hurst, Charles E. Social Inequality: Forms, Causes, and Consequences. Sixth Edition. In the US, membership in a specific caste is often hereditary, marriage within one’s caste is mandatory, mobility is impossible, and occupation is determined by caste position. Mobility is possible within one’s caste but not between castes. Race and ethnic stratification is evident throughout US caste systems. Each caste system must abide by specific codes of race relations in which certain behaviors and positions are expected by each group. Caste as metaphor for race relations was developed academically by Lloyd Warner 's “American Caste and Class”, Gunnar Myrdal 's An American Dilemma, and John Dollard 's Caste and Class in a Southern Town. Myrdal argued that “the scientifically important difference between the terms ‘caste’ and ‘class’… is … a relatively large difference in freedom of movement between groups”.Myrdal, Gunnar. 1944. An American Dilemma: The Negro Problem and Modern Democracy. New York: Harper and Brothers. 
The first line gives the impression that most people think America has a caste system, which is cleary false. While there may be classes, it's far from generally agreed that there is a caste syustem: I think this is an extremely minority viewpoint. There's no ideology keeping the classes apparat, and certainly no law, so even on Hurst's definition this is absurd. You can go for any job you wish, marriage between classes is perfectly common. In short, this section is ridiculous, hence why I moved it here. Larklight (talk) 19:19, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Caste in the United States 

message: I suggest that there be a disambiguation page to distinguish human castes (social science) from social insect castes (biology). Because the biology term is less common, "caste" should take you directly to the former, but there should be a link at the top of the page that can take you to the disambiguation page.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Martastic (talk • contribs) 15:38, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, absolutely! ... said: Rursus (bork²) 17:25, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of the word Caste to describe Social Insects 

message: Racial discrimination is not, that religious apartheid of "pillars" is not. Race and religious apartheid shouldn't be in the article!! Caste is some kind of religious or legislated social groups that are based on a general societal function, and generally there is little intermarriage. The Roman apartheid between patricians and plebejs is a classic, the Western legislative caste systems of nobles/priests/the third caste (or in old Sweden: nobles/priests/bourgeoisi/peasants) are typical as well as the Indian of brahmin/ksatriya/vaishya/shudras are. The other things, like apartheid, pillars and race discrimination should better be in an article of social stratification, system discrimination or some such. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 17:33, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is a caste? 

message: According to the castes in India:
:All the Dvija(Twice Born)ie Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas could and did perform the fire sacrifice for themselves. Even this has not always been followed by all sects within Hinduism - for example, in the Arya Samaj, all castes including Shudras can perform the fire sacrifice.
Why is Arya Samaj occurring here? It is AFAIK a modern political renewal movement, not a sect proper, and as much as I know, it is specifically opposed to the caste system, so it is most definitely not a proof in either this or that way. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 17:40, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arya Samaj 

message: I think a good idea would be to create an article called Caste in Sikhism or Punajb...there is a controversial talk on Bhappe and its causing a lot of Syappe, so any honest feedback would be helpful. Thanks  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heliosphere (talk • contribs) 21:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caste in Punjab 

message: I think Vniop above made the essential point. It seems articles like this get bogged down by those with a political agenda. Caste is as valid and intrinsic a part of various people's cultures as any other part, surely then the article should just seek to highlight that cultural expression, even if editors personally disagree with the concept? Of course, it could be argued that the very idea of including this subject as part of a 'Human Rights' project undermines the very neutrality of the article anyway...  -Utinomen (talk) 22:09, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caste as phenomenon of culture 

message: Native fijians also had (and still have) a caste system. The warriors came exclusively from certain families. The priest ( medicine man) came only from certain families and for most the rest were commoners. Can someone reserach the Fijian caste system please.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.171.167.186 (talk) 05:25, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caste System in Fiji 

message: Conflating the Indian caste system with the tripartite society of Medieval Europe is historically untenable. A caste system is always based on inheritance. You are born into a caste (i. e. varna/jati), you can't change from one caste into another!
In Medieval Europe, by contrast, a person's belonging to an "état" was determined by the occupation/social status of the father, but it could be altered - similarly to the class society of today. A peasant in the Middle Ages could well become a nobleman if he showed exceptional fortitude in battle for example (and many did). And of course the clergy, as it was celibate, was always recruited from the other two "états", as it could not perpetuate itself by its own means. The example of the "premier état" (clergy) shows especially well that the "three pillars" system of Medieval society was based on social function, not on some unchangeable characteristics that you inherited from your parents. (Especially as it was a Christian society, based on the idea that all men were equal before God.)
I think it's a great problem with this article that it lumps together all kinds of social stratification as "caste" (see "caste in the United States"!!!!), without giving a definition of "caste" that is different from "class" or other types of social groupings. Lumendelumine (talk) 09:07, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have deleted the offending section. Hopefully no-one will put it back. Class and Caste are related but emphatically not the same, and conflating them is either muddle-headed or mendacious. It seems that a spurious section about the United States existed at one time, but it isn't around as of today. Luwilt (talk) 22:23, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  No castes in Medieval Europe! 

message: A Wikipedia user named Larklight deleted a section of the caste article because it said that caste existed in America. The deletion was obviously politically motivated. Larklight says that there's no ideology keeping the classes apart,and there's no law preventing them from marrying each other. At one time,America had a rudimentary caste system based on race. There were laws against 'miscegenation',which means there were laws that prevented whites from marrying blacks. I suppose in India it was illegal for an untouchable to marry a Brahmin,so this fits the classical definition of caste. Wikipedia has an article about miscegenation laws,and it says that America's first miscegenation law was made in 1913. In the heyday of these laws,30 states had anti-miscegenation laws. The laws were finally struck down by a 1967 court ruling. When they were struck down in 1967,there were 16 states that still had these laws on the books. This alone is proof that America had a racially-based case system between 1913 and 1967. 
The existence of political dynasties in America suggests that politicians are part of a hereditary caste. As an example,look at the Kennedy family. John F. Kennedy was president,his brothers,Edward Kennedy and Robert Kennedy were also in politics. Prescott Bush was a U.S. Senator,he had a son (George H.W. Bush) who was president,a grandson (George W. Bush) who was also president,and George W. Bush had a brother (Jeb Bush) who was governor of Florida. All of this suggests that politicians are part of an elite caste,based on heredity.
As for ideology,Bush once spoke of what he called an 'ownership society'. He wanted the government to create a so-called 'ownership society' in which landowners functioned as an elite ruling caste,while non-owners were a downtrodden 'untouchable caste'. Your article on caste is poorly written,it needs to be completely re-written. You may also want to include a chapter about racially-based caste in South Africa. In 1949 South Africa made it illegal for whites to marry blacks,and the law was not repealed until 1985. It was also illegal for whites to have sex with blacks until 1985. Since these caste attributes were codified by law,it can be defined as a caste system,in the traditional sense. Signed,Anthony Ratkov August 9,2010  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.130.34.160 (talk) 18:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree. Americans elect whoever they want, whenever they want. I'd know, I've spent my whole life here. Just because the Bush and Kennedy families go together means nothing. It just means the people are gullable enough to make that matter somehow. If you want, in America, you can get ultra rich, become president, whatever the sky's the limit. Take Lyndon B Johnson for example. Dirt poor poverty, all the way to US President. You can go out now and buy up a bunch of business, real estate, or whatever else and become the next Donald Trump, assuming you have the resources and motivation to do so. It's called the "class" system, meaning you can move up and down at will, so long as you have proper resources (for the most part money). You're not trapped in it forever just because of your birth. Yes, things were racially segregated in the 1960's I will not try to deny that. I just want to point out that this idea of America having a legitimate caste nowadays is complete BS, unfounded, and makes no sense, at least not to me. Also, in terms of your ruling elites, consider it this way: we can all run. Just put your name into the campaign, put out some advertisements, and make the general public think that you'll do what they want and improve the country. The rich often get an easier time because they have more money to spend, yes, but success is not utterly dependent on the family you're born into. 
68.40.243.178 (talk) 01:26, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

text: It is quite wrong to conflate class divisions with caste. Caste is a rigid system whereby status is determined by birth, and cannot be changed by any human means. This was never the case in Europe or most places outside India. Social mobility was necessarily low in all pre-Industrial societies, but in a class system, as opposed to a caste system, people could change their class and a few did. A king could make a peasant a noblemen, and that sometimes happened. Not even an emperor could change someone's caste. This article in its current form seems to be designed mainly to deny that there is anything unusual about the Indian system, but it is unusual. Luwilt (talk) 22:16, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on caste in America 

message: The following quote comes from pages 153-55 of the Third Edition of The Earth and Its Peoples, a commonly-used textbook on world history:
Stories about this era, written down much later but
preserved by memorization and oral recitation, speak of
bitter rivalry and warfare between two groups of people:
the Aryas, relatively light-skinned speakers of Indo-
European languages, and the Dasas, dark-skinned speakers
of Dravidian languages. Some scholars contend that
some Dasas were absorbed into Arya populations and
elites from both groups merged. For the most part, however,
the Aryas pushed the Dasas south into central and
southern India, where their descendants still live. Indo-
European languages are primarily spoken in northern
India today. Dravidian speech prevails in the south.
Skin color has been a persistent concern of Indian
society and is one of the bases for its historically sharp
internal divisions. Over time there evolved a system of
varna—literally “color,” though the word came to indicate
something akin to “class.” Individuals were born
into one of four classes: Brahmin, the group comprising
priests and scholars; Kshatriya, warriors and officials;
Vaishya, merchants, artisans, and landowners; or Shudra,
peasants and laborers. The designation Shudra
originally may have been reserved for Dasas, who were
given the menial jobs in society. Indeed, the very term
dasa came to mean “slave.” Eventually a fifth group was
marked off: the Untouchables. They were excluded from
the class system, and members of the other groups literally
avoided them because of the demeaning or pollut-
ing work to which they were relegated—such as leather
tanning, which involved touching dead animals, and
sweeping away ashes after cremations.
A link to the chapter can be found here.
Hokie Tech (talk) 22:17, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Racial Theory of Caste 

message: Wikipedia does not have even half info about caste in india,previously it was having but now they have modified all pages and having no relevent information.............Why its so?
2-3 years back this website was having most of information but now it does not have even half of the information .............every information is either not complete or having no relevence...................
Now there are so many websites having correct and relevent information.
This website is permorming wrost in few years its very annoying for its fans.
I hope some corrective action will be taken....................  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.99.199.177 (talk) 11:10, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia does not have even half info about caste in india,previously it was having but now they have modified all pages and having no relevent information at all.............Why its so? 

message: I have moved the 'citation needed' tag covering the 1901 census decision's motivation to the end of the paragraph in which it is contained.  The reason for doing this is that citing only this sentence gives an impression of poor support, while if the following sentences are accurate the support appears reasonably established. Clearly, this paragraph needs at least one source covering all sentences in it.Julzes (talk) 01:59, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation tag moved to the end of paragraph