Talk:Beowulf/Archive 2

message: I am confused the intro says beowulf was buried in a barrow, but later on it says he was cremated. Can anybody clear that up?
rhemmen 14:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Body cremated or buried

message: I think "Derivative works and contemporary influences" should be moved to a subarticle since it is just a list. Here is an example of such a page, which was broken off from the Gandhi main article: List of artistic depictions of Mahatma Gandhi. The main Beowulf article should focus on the poem only. -Classicfilms 12:15, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved this information to a new article. -Classicfilms 23:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Derivative works and contemporary influences section

message: The introduction contains no sentence summarizing the scholarly consensus about when the poem was written.  It doesn't even narrow it down to a century -- except obliquely by saying it was composed in Old English.
:It is probably because no such consensus exists, so no uncontroversial date can be given. In my experience estimates vary depending on the outlook of the scholar. Adding to the difficulty of dating it, the work is not purely a work of fiction composed by an imaginative author at a specific date, but a retelling of heroic legends generally held to date back to the 5th and the 6th centuries, or even earlier in some cases (it is however possible that the main plot dates to the late 10th century). I think it is likely that it existed in several different versions from the 7th century and onwards, each version changing it somewhat until it reached its present form.--Berig 07:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PS, a notable indication of the existence of previous versions of Beowulf and the difficulty of dating it is the fact that Pagan and Christian elements intermingle. We will never know whether it was a purely pagan poem which was rendered politically correct with Christian elements or whether it was composed in a syncretic environment, like several of the the corresponding Scandinavian sources were.--Berig 10:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: When was it written?

message: Is there any specific reason that this article is only labeled under Norse history? I think that Beowulf has a great importance in English history as well. It also occupies a huge place in the study of the Old English language. I would add this, but I wanted to know if there was any specific reason why and English history tags were omitted.Arbadihist 02:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why just norse? 

message: right|200px|thumb|An approximation of the central regions of the tribes mentioned in Beowulf. The red area is Västergötland (the core region of Geatland), the yellow area is the territory ruled by the Wulfings, the pink area is the Danish territory. The green area is the land of the Swedes. The blue area represents the land of Jutes, while the orange area belongs to  Frisians. For a more detailed discussion on the fragmented political situation of Scandinavia during the 6th century, see Scandza
The map is unencyclopedic, drawn by an anonymous editor, who has not indicated what maps he used to make this representation. I suspect original research, WP:OR; see also WP:IMAGES#Pertinence and encyclopedicity. I propose that this file be removed from this article and deleted, unless someone can give a reference to a similar map in print. /Pieter Kuiper 20:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you, please, give any details as to how the map is wrong? I am not sure exactly what your problem is?--Berig 21:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is how we can know if it is right. /Pieter Kuiper 21:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The map appears to have been in the article for more than two years and it seems likely that numerous university professors and students have seen it. No one has so far expressed anything like your insecurity, or even commented on it. I suggest that you actually *point* out where you find the map problematic.--Berig 22:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, you know very well that few people agree on the whereabouts of these literary tribes. One bit that was really completely new for me is the location of the Wulfings (yellow on the map). Is there any other printed map where they are shown in this location together with all the other tribes? /Pieter Kuiper 22:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you first, please, explain what you mean with "literary tribes"? I just want to make sure whether we are talking of the same subject. The Danes who are marked on the map were a real tribe, AFAIK, so in what way are they literary?--Berig 22:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What I think is an irrelevant question here. I repeat: what is the source for the Wulfings being in the yellow area. If there is no answer to that kind of questions, this map has no place in an encyclopedia. What map is this map based on? /Pieter Kuiper 22:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The map and its caption 

message: the image of "The first page of Beowulf" is a broken link.
plz fix  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.83.127.31 (talk) 23:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed by purging the cache of the image description page. /Pieter Kuiper 00:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: Are there really 1.5 million copies of Beowulf?
This is not citedBdodo1992 20:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of copies 

message: I've rewound from 29th September back to 00:53 25th September -- because the vandalism has been persistent and poorly corrected leaving chunks of the article missing and the headers broken. It's too complex to find where the good edits were, so would the contributors of the last few days please re-enter your work. Sorry about that.--Farry 12:40, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Massive Rewind and loss of edits (sorry)

message: A separate Beowulf Analysis page has been created: Beowulf Analysis. Not sure if someone wants to merge this information with the main page or let this second page contain the spillover.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trixi72 (talk • contribs) 12:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beowulf Analysis Page 

message: ]IM a little Confused about this movie, its said that its based on Beowulf, But its about an arab that travels to the nordic land,to make peace, but gets dragged into a fight with "Grendel" like Monsters, and the "Grendels Mother" Which turned out to belike a witch of some sort, Could someone Explain this to me?
:The 13th Warrior is based on Michael Chrichton's Eaters of the Dead, which is in turn sort of a blending of Beowulf and Ahmad ibn Fadlan's writings.  See the linked articles. ErikHaugen (talk) 21:01, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Thirteenth Warrior

message: "Beowulf is an Old English heroic epic poem of anonymous authorship"
--> apperars to be wrong. its anglo saxon. so saying its something with "english" is definitively wrong. in time where it was written nothing like "english" existed. its rather an old germanic poem than an english!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.83.48 (talk) 21:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Anglo Saxon is Old English. Anglo Saxon is an early form of English. --SpudBoy (talk) 23:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: old english??

message: Can someone give me some insite on Grendel, Im doing a literary Reasearch paper on Beowulf and I would like to explain Grendel In a way, that isnt colouded, I want to know were I can find out History on Grendel, Ive looked everywhere and can't find anything.
:Unfortunately, I am not very familiar with what modern English-speaking scholars think about Grendel, and I think Classicfilms could answer that much better than I could. However, in case it interests you, there are Norse parallels, where heroes fight half-human foes of great strength, and they are either trolls/giants as in Gríms saga loðinkinna, or as the blótrísi of Kormáks saga or draugar as in Grettis saga and in Hrómundar saga Gripssonar. IIRC, Scandinavian sources tend to talk of Grendel as a Troll.--Berig 18:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I don't have much more to add to the above.-Classicfilms 18:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

text: It's important to remember too that we are not deciding here at the Wikipedia what Grendel is or is not. Instead we are trying to convey what scholars are writing about (or have written about) on the topic. Some good points are made above. In addition, you might want to spend time reading what other scholars have written about on this subject - who might agree or disagree with the above approach. A good book to begin with is Andy Orchard's "Pride and Prodigies: Studies in the Monsters of the Beowulf Manuscript" which you should be able to find in the library.  This will also lead you to other books and essays on the subject and help you determine the different debates on the topic. -Classicfilms (talk) 19:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Grendel

message: I removed this sentence from the introduction:
"There are over 1.5 million copies of Beowulf printed today."
It needs to be sourced and clarified - there are numerous translations of Beowulf in many different languages. This sentence needs to clarify which editions are included in this number and which languages they are translated into. It also needs to differentiate between translations and either dual language editions or editions published in Old English. -Classicfilms 20:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copies printed 

message: The character list is quite long - it is also (obviously) a list. For both of these reasons, I would like to suggest moving it to another article called "List of characters in Beowulf." -Classicfilms 13:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I kind of agree on this since it takes up a lot of space. However, it might be better just to remove it since a "List of characters in Beowulf" will probably be attacked by the List of X deletionists anyway.--Berig 20:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm hesitant to delete the list since it is enormously useful to have the character names in one place. I checked Wikipedia:Lists and can't find a reason to delete such a page. There are also Wikipedia:Featured lists to imitate. -Classicfilms 20:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If there is place for an article like List of English words containing Q not followed by U, there should be place for an article named "List of characters in Beowulf". I can make it tomorrow afternoon, if it is fine by you.--Berig 20:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Berig  for making me laugh (I certainly needed it :-) Yes, it is remarkable to see what becomes an FA (also gives us hope that one day Beowulf will be an FA as well). By all means, please do make the list if you have the time - it would be greatly appreciated (and in line with the current header, it should probably be called, "List of characters and objects in Beowulf" since some of the important terms refer to inanimate objects). -Classicfilms 20:56, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it does not hurt to start it right away, although I should be going to bed :-). Here it is: List of characters and objects in Beowulf.--Berig 21:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey great start! Though I think that there is no rush on this - take your time -Classicfilms 21:06, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! Don't hesitate to improve it until I return tomorrow afternoon.--Berig 21:10, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, I just did. I added a basic intro, cats, images, and subheaders to the article. Please feel free to edit and tweak these additions as you format the list. I also deleted the list from the main article, add a "main" tag and wrote a very short intro that could use some more work. I'll leave that to you. Thanks, -Classicfilms 21:33, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great work as usual :)! I will make some additions and fixes.--Berig 16:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! Thanks too for cleaning up the list and making more additions - I'll keep a watch on it. -Classicfilms 16:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Character List 

message: I'm surprised that there's no discussion of Sievers' Theory of Anglo-Saxon Meter, but then the section on meter is rather scattered in general (why two form sections?), and might benefit from some copy and paste replacement from alliterative verse.  The section on common Germanic features explains alliterative verse much more clearly and concisely than here.  I'd , but I'm a physicist and trying to stay on wikibreak.  206.81.65.30 19:37, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent point. I'd like to add that Alliterative verse is a featured article (and was a "Today's Featured Article" in 2004). I would like propose that the sections Language and verse-form and Form are combined into one section (perhaps called "Form and meter"), and that much of the general information be removed. What is left can serve as an introduction and a Main Link can be added, pointing to  Alliterative verse. It would improve the article dramatically. -Classicfilms 19:50, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Those two sections should be merged.--Berig 20:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I'll wait a few days and if there are no objections, I'll take care of the merge and main. -Classicfilms 21:37, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I would also like to propose that we remove the long translation in "Form." The translation does not improve or help the article and since there are literally hundreds of modern English translations of the poem, it seems beyond the bounds of the Wikipedia to promote one particular version.-Classicfilms 20:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meter 

message: As of 13 Nov 2007, A sentence in the into reads: As the single major surviving work of Anglo-Saxon heroic poetry, the work—in spite of dealing primarily with Danish and Swedish events—has risen to such prominence that it has been described as "England's national epic.".  Well... In that time frame, being Danish rather than British is what makes it an English rather than a Welsh epic.  So the wording "in spite of" doesn't look appropriate to me.  Can anybody suggest something better? --Farry 14:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it. It looks like OR to me. Also, the source did not support the claim, the poem is still considered a Teutonic epic as far as I know. - Jeeny (talk) 06:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have tweaked the statement and replaced the reference.--Berig (talk) 11:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  IN SPITE of being Danish? 

message: I added the "Expert tag" with the hope that this will encourage greater input into this article from Beowulf scholars. -Classicfilms 19:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am going to remove it. It doesn't seem in dire need of expert improvement, which I think it should be to warrant a tag, and makes the article look messy. If experts come along, they'll edit it whether or not there's a tag. GDallimore (Talk) 17:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expert tag 

message: Why is it that the manuscript is from 410 CE (beginning of the entry) but deals with events that took place later, in the late 5th and early 6th centuries. Either one of these is false or Beowulf was written before the action took place. --24.57.19.247 (talk) 07:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was just temporary vandalism. It has been fixed.--Berig (talk) 11:45, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

text: No, A.D. (which is nowadays written C.E.). Different cultures starting writing stories down on paper at different times, partly depending on the availability of paper, and largely on the development of an economy that supports a leisure class that has time to write down stories. Lots of stuff. Pete St.John (talk) 19:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Different Dates 

message: I genuinely don't see why Beowulf (hero) is a separate article. At the moment it contains a plot summary of the epic, and three proposed identifications with Scandinavian equivalents:
*An (unsourced, but plausible) quote locating the Brondings at Brännö in Sweden
*An identification of Beowulf's mound with a particular archaeological site.
*A note that Beowulf is comparable to Bödvar Bjarki; I'm not sure he is more so than to any other werebear; but the whole subject belongs under the Bee-wolf etymology anyway, merged or not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:46, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to agree. There is a section in the main article into which merger is proposed which deals with the historical background. It makes sense for all relevant information to be in the same place, until it gets unwieldy to either read or edit (in that order). I don't think that point would be reached, even after a merger, bearing in mind that all duplicate and unsourced material would be factored out in the merge. Also, bearing in mind Occam's Razor and the fact that the film is current, I think the less scope for inconsistency the better. It's not my field of expertise at all, and my opinion is purely third-party. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 00:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with a merger. The identifications with Swedish sites are pure speculation. The tenuous parallel with Icelandic sagas is the subject of Origins for Beowulf and Hrólf Kraki. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 00:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I would suspect that an etymology section for the figure of Beowulf alone (which I have facilitated very recently) would be enough to warrant his own article as the actual manuscript is untitled, not to mention the large amount of comparable historical figures and theories relating to the subject which I will continue to reference and add. Shall we also merge the sizable articles relating to Grendel's Mother and Grendel? What about Heorot? Don't you think the article is already pretty lengthy? :bloodofox: (talk) 11:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an existing article called List of characters and objects in Beowulf. -Classicfilms (talk) 07:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

text: *Yes, I know, but as a list page it's not suitable, and is an AFD-magnet. - BillCJ (talk) 08:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *There are Wikipedia:Featured lists. -Classicfilms (talk) 13:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I should add that, as I mentioned above, I also oppose the merger and think that the character of Beowulf is deserving of a separate article. Perhaps it would makes sense to create an article which combined minor characters, but not the major ones. As it stands, the list is a useful reference tool when reviewing the poem as there are many characters, objects, and clans to keep straight - and as the FA link above demonstrates, there are lists which have gained community consensus. -Classicfilms (talk) 14:15, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

text: *I don't think it is meaningful to divide the characters of Beowulf into "minor" and "major" characters as far as Wikipedia articles are concerned. Some major characters in Beowulf appear nowhere else and as is shown by this straw poll, some people may argue that they should not have separate articles. Many minor characters, OTOH, are quite notable as they also appear in other surviving pieces of Germanic heroic poetry, chronicles and sagas. I see no reason why we should have an article named "characters in Beowulf" to cover "minor characters in Beowulf" when they already have medium-sized to major articles like Ingeld, Healfdene, Halga, Hroðulf, Heoroweard, Eormenric, Fitela, Sigemund, Onela and Eadgils. Hama has not even got an article yet, but I am planning quite a large one on him.--Berig (talk) 16:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, these articles are simply much too expansive and encompassing to merge them all together into a single page. As Berig states, many of these figures have extensive history and associations outside of Beowulf. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and it really would appear odd to define Wayland Smith as a Beowulf character when he even has a poem of his own in the Poetic Edda. --Berig (talk) 08:01, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge proposal

message: I think a key to understand the form of Christian faith that is mingled with the Nordic heathendom in Beowulf, is that the Geats, like their relatives the Goths, during that time were influenced by Semi-Arianism, and not Catholicism. The person who later edited the stories may have been a Catholic, but there are certain traces of Biblical faith in the poem that diverts from Catholicism, but may be related to Semi-Arianism. This would be, if true, interesting for those who try to understand what the story actually is about. I think it's about a confrontation between the old idol worship (so deep that it could manifest in physical demonic forms), and the "proto-Christianity", that just had begun to influence the peoples of the North. And, as the Geatish/Gothic peoples were more into Semi-Arianism, and thus opposed to Catholicism, during the iron age, we find a strange mix of heathen and Christian faith, in the poem.
From this point of view, there would be no reason to think that Beowolf wasn't a real person. He may have been a kind of shaman, but at the same time heavy influenced by Gothic Christendom, giving him an advantage against the old demonic forces, that for example, the Danes didn't have. We know that people who are deep into the occult, view their world of spiritual conceptions as a physical reality. It can cause them wounds, and supernatural strength, and lots of other weird things. Whether or not "real" in a modern sence, didn't matter for them. Their faith in those dark forces was enough to cause disorder and deaths and misery, and Beowulf may have been the one, at that time, who was needed, to cause these manifestations to "die" and disintegrate.
...
I wrote the above just a few days ago, but awaited some sence, or feeling, of confirmation. Next day I saw that someone had written about "The Cain Tradition in Beowulf". That was exactly those traces of Biblical faith diverging from Catholicism, that I mentioned above!
This is very interesting, because it shows that the Beowulf stories must be of another origin, than that of nations were Catholicism "ruled", because they had the Vulgate translation in which there is no mentioning of fallen angels, producing giants and monsters, as told about in Beowulf. So, the Beowulf origin must be of an older date than when Catholicism had defeated other Christian faiths among the German tribes. And the clue here might be, that the Goths were Semi-Arians up until about the same time that the Beowulf story took place.
In Catholicism, the story of Cain's breed mixing with "the Sons of God", is depicted as the godly offspring of Seth mixing with the ungodly offspring of Cain, producing not physical giants and monsters, but humans "gigantic" only in deeds. On the other hand, the Septuagint tells fully about fallen angels mixing with humans forming a race of real giants, and there are some mentioning in the Apocrypha also, about a mix of giants and animals, creating monsters and hybrids (like in the ancient Greek tales). This is what seems to be the view in Beowulf, and thus must be of another Christian tradition than the one spread from Rome. So, a connection between the Goths and their Geatish relatives in the North, must be the most obvious here.
I'm not sure, but maybe this could change the view about when Beowulf was written. Why would a Catholic monk in England leave the Septuagint's Cain tradition untouched, if he were editing the stories to fit his Church? Perhaps he didn't edit at all - he just translated the original Geatish tales.
Anyway, this mythical Cain tradition shows that the Beowulf origin isn't written, or taken place, under Roman-Catholic influence. The rest remains to be proven. Unfortunately, what remains of the Gothic Bible translation made by Wulfila doesn't include Genesis, so we don't know which Cain tradition Wulfila followed. But a good guess would be that he, as the Semi-Arianism was mostly an Eastern Christianity teaching, himself being a Semi-Arian, followed his fellow brethren's view. I think that makes these speculations quite possible, and worth of considering, if not done yet by someone. /Leos Friend (talk) 03:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In general the section on Beowulf and Christianity seems to be lacking.  The evidence is out there, but I think there needs to be a stronger case made for the influence of Christianity in the Beowulf.  For instance, the similarities between the heroic journeys of Beowulf and Jesus are not limited to them two alone, but rather apply to a multitude of Indo-European and Near Eastern heroes and gods.  If this subject is going to be breached, then more details or else simpler proposals need to be brought forward.Delvebelow (talk) 21:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beowulf and the Cain traditions 

message: Hello, I have taken the liberty of deleting the last two sentences at the end of the Introduction (about pronouncing "baya"-wulf) because the information they provide is already provided a couple of lines higher up in a much more rigorous way. One has the impression that whoever added the bit I have removed didn't understand that the preceding explanation was already saying the same thing. The omitted two sentences were also poorly written, incidentally. If anyone thinks I'm wrong, please correct my mistake! Cheers, --A R King (talk) 08:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your edits. Thanks! -Classicfilms (talk) 14:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: The map which shows the different regions of Scandinavia discussed in the work has several blue links to other articles in the caption, but the links are not clickable.  Any ideas?  Corvus cornixtalk 22:20, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They're working for me. I have Firefox. Maybe something's wrong with your browser? Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:38, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The map

message: The phrase "living in a lake" could mean "living on a platform in a lake" as for example the platform found in Tingstäde träsk on Gotland, similar platforms has been found in Poland and Baltikum, and it is beleived that people lived on these platforms, and that seen as a whole the lake and the platform made a perfect defense construction. I made a special own page for this: http://hem.fyristorg.com/magnus.andersson/Beowulf.html (I don't want to waste the space here) Magnus Andersson (talk) 17:32, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hypotheses about the original story behind Beowulf 

message: Could someone write a phonetic pronunciation so we don't have to look it up in some annoying table? Thanks. 66.30.14.161 (talk) 02:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: IPA is the standard for pronunciation in WP. Carl.bunderson (talk) 07:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA sucks