Talk:Form follows function

message: I think these comments are POV and besides, false.  There is no evidence for the “halting of aerodynamic research”, and plenty of evidence against it.  For example, the tools necessary for computational fluid dynamics were not available until the last two decades – which coincided with the development of aerodynamics cars.  The move to aero-efficient cars has not led to a “single perfectible optimal automobile shape” but much more variety than the boxy 80’s shapes.  Furthermore, modern cars really are more aerodynamic, so aerodynamics is not just a “marketing buzzword.”  (Which is not to say that it isn’t in some cases.)
A quick Google search http://www.automechanicschools.com/docs/the-chrysler-airflow.html shows that the Airflow failed to sell for a number of reasons, not the least of which was that consumers thought it looked ugly – so it was not a conspiracy by auto-makers.  In fact, capitalism is neither for nor against “design integrity” as the author claims, but reflects the actual values of consumers, which may or may not match the author’s view of “integrity.” --GreedyCapitalist 23:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is an undue emphasis on a tendency for a short time in one particular part of a global industry. Cars such as the VW beetle, and particularly the combi, were very specifically optimised for aero, within other constraints. And of course since then many manufacturers have indulged in a pissing contest based on aero. The book states the Airflow failed because it was seen as a lemon, only part of which was due to the styling. It should also be pointed out that they were arguing from a false premise, the teardrop is NOT the optimum shape for a car (even if you ignore sensitivity to sidewinds which was a KNOWN problem at the time), as we know now. Incidentally the book is available on google books, from which one can see that your summary ignores many complexities in the pages that are relevant, in an effort to present a single argument. As such I am going to rewrite the para, and/or delete it.  Greglocock (talk) 00:34, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You may want to double check your own revisions in regard to "Cd".  I think you meant drag coefficient, not Cadmium.  Otherwise, I refuse to argue with you, since we essentially agree.  --Lockley (talk) 09:10, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalism and aerodynamics 

message: May I suggest that the intro paragraph be deleted, or at least moved to the end of the article in a new Critique section.  Don't criticize and analyze "FFF" before explaining what it means; it's not good encylopedic form.  The first paragraph should simply state a brief definition of the term and its most essential usages.  After that, everything is fair game.
:I, too, have concerns about the opening paragraph of this article:
:In the context of design professions "form follows function" seems like solid good sense. On closer examination it becomes problematic, controversial, and open to interpretation. Linking the relationship between the 'form' of an object and its intended purpose is obviously a good idea for designers and architects, but it is not always by itself a complete design solution. Zeroing in on the precise meaning(s) of the phrase 'form follows function' opens a discussion of design integrity that remains an important, live debate. 
:That whole section never tells what FFF actually is, it merely debates its merits. Could the first sentence be changed to include something along the lines of, Form follows function is a principle associated with Modern architecture and industrial design in the 20th Century which states that the appearance of a building or object should be predicated on its intended use or purpose"' or ...which states that purpose and use are of primary importance in design and aesthics should be considered secondarily. ? Is that the best way to state it?  J. Van Meter 11:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introductory paragraph 

message: On Aug 22 User:Delirium marked this page with a cleanup tag, saying "as noted on the talk page, this article adopts a lot of opinions rather than documenting the subject".  I'm the author of most of this material, and I can defend the main thrust and details of the article as factual and verifiable.  That said, criticism welcome.  Lockley 02:01, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup tag 

message: This source is a song for kids and--although fun--of questionable reliability for information on evolution or biology. Its referred to twice and adds little to the topic.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.142.205 (talk) 02:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References to 'Songs for Teaching' 

message: The following external link has been inserted here and at various other articles: www.fungitecture.com A sense of what's up with this ican be had from the following introductory statement: "The term Fungitecture was coined to describe the peculiar resemblance between certain ancient styles of monumental architecture and the fruit of one or other species of fungus. However, Fungitecture also serves as an umbrella term covering a much wider field of human endeavour, wherever fungus imagery, lore or substance may have been invoked." There are no references to any responsible peer-reviewed literature, needless to say. This does not show Wikipedia in a flattering light, in my opinion.--Wetman (talk) 01:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "Fungitecture" [sic]

message: As several editors have mentioned above, this article has serious problems of tone and style and POV -- it is written as an essay, not an encyclopedia article.  What's more, it appears to give undue weight to particular authors' approaches.  For example, the phrase "form follows precedent" appears to be borrowed from James O'Gorman's Three American Architects (without attribution, by the way); other books on architecture don't seem to use it.  The article smells of a combination of plagiarism and OR, but I haven't tracked down any specific plagiarism yet.
I also wonder why this article is separate from functionalism; after all, WP is not a dictionary, and "form follows function" is just a slogan related to functionalism.  Anyway, these are just some quick notes for now.  I hope I'll have time to come back to this article and improve it.... --Macrakis (talk) 19:46, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems with this article

message: The first sentence in the section entitled Origins of the phrase reads, "The first mention of the phrase could be ascribed to the American sculptor Horatio Greenough, who in 1852 was relating it to the organic principles of architecture." and the last sentence of the section reads, "The authorship of the phrase is often, though wrongly, ascribed to the American sculptor Horatio Greenough,[3] whose thinking to a large extent predates the later functionalist approach to architecture.".  Is it just me, or does that seem contradictory and in need of clarification or revision or something? — T13   ( C • M • Click to learn how to view this signature as intended ) 23:54, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Form_follows_function#Origins_of_the_phrase|Origins of the phrase]] conflict. 

message: The section on Evolution confuses "following" in a temporal sense with "following" in a functional sense. It should be clear that evolution seeks to find viable compromises among differing design demands. It does so through a series of more-or-less random variations. So in that sense (and I believe this is the sense meant by the Functionalists) the form of a creature must comply with (i.e. "follow") its functional demands. I would remove the Evolution section since it is hard to imagine it being anything other than a debate about the meaning of the words.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.88.168.35 (talk) 20:22, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This section has remained unchanged since the “refimprove” note was added in 2011 (except for cosmetic edits), is unsourced, and the biological/historical claims herein are plain false, seemingly being based on a basic misunderstanding of both theories of evolution. Since nobody has fixed it, added references, or has disputed the suggestion of removing the section, I’m doing that now. klmr (talk) 13:49, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evolution 

message: The Software Engineering term does not belong on this page.  Its presence here is evidence of geeks lurking on the Web, nothing  more. 
Form Follows Function is about adapting design to the physical world, the reaction of Modernism to the arrival of Industrial Age materials.  Software has neither physical form to adapt to nor materials to work with. Any discussion of software "form" is strictly metaphor.  As the section itself concludes, "... the [x] and [y] paradigm [sic] lend themselves very well to explore, blur and invert the essence of those two concepts".  No reference, probably OR.  Or poetry perhaps.  It's hard to say.  
The very term "software engineering" is somewhat controversial insofar as it has no accepted meaning.  There is no school of Software Engineering; no one is certified or licensed as a software engineer.  
The cited references are weak and ephemeral.  SOA was a fad, about as meaningful to computer science as "Web 2.0".  The problem of assessing functional requirements is longstanding and unsolved.  Until that changes, the Software Engineering section has no place here.  
Jklowden (talk) 18:13, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Just curious about "There is no school of Software Engineering; no one is certified or licensed as a software engineer"; I guess by "school" you mean "school of thought", right? Otherwise you should learn to use Google my friend! Are there different schools of thought in "electrical engineering"?! How about "mechanical engineering"?! "Molecular engineering"?! How about "nuclear engineering"?! Should I go on?! And... are there any "certificates" for any of these? No! You don't need a "certificate" to become a professional in any of these fields, you need the right education, knowledge, and skills. You should really try and learn to channel your frustrations somewhere else. God I hate the internet! 131.179.210.243 (talk) 04:46, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Try practising as a mechanical engineer to the public without the necessary bits of paper  in the USA or Canada and you will suddenly find yourself in the soup. Greglocock (talk) 07:22, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

text: I think that this section on Software Engineering should be deleted. "Form follows function" is a doctrine about the design of physical objects, and how decoration, if used at all, should be subordinated to functional design. Software is not a physical object, and the idea of decorating software is absurd. Also, the prose in this section is full of incorrect grammar. Please delete. 81.2.68.136 (talk) 17:02, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Software engineering: Not 

message: Alfred Loos never said "ornament is a crime" or "ornament is criminal". This would be a simplified interpretion of the things he states in his book "Ornament AND Crime". This has to be revised.
Professortiki (talk) 09:45, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alfred Loos "Ornament and Crime" 

message: I'd think there'd at least be mention in the Architecture section, although the Bauhaus began work in other areas of industrial design before including architecture. Benefac (talk) 22:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  No mention of [[Bauhaus]] or [[Walter Gropius]]? Odd. 

message: Anyone here object to the idea of spinning off that "evolution" subsection into a separate article?  In selective breeding the concept is more often  called "form to function" and the biology stuff doesn't really seem to fit in this article...discussion?  Montanabw(talk) 04:20, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never been a fan of this section. It doesn't really address the question of FFF in biology. This article started out as an opinion piece deriding FFF, and the discussion of Lamarckian evolution is left over from that. A more interesting example on this topic would be convergent evolution, but that would be beyond the scope of this article. Removing it would make more sense.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.114.248.74 (talk) 20:47, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evolution 

message: I notice some fanboy has put some photos of pretty cars into the article. One might imagine that FFF applies to vehicles with a clearly defined function whereas Fazzas Bugs and so on do not. The 2CV, original Mini, Beetle and so on might qualify. Specifically if we allow the Ferrari's purpose to be defined by aero and dynamics (bullshit but there ya go) then we find neither its aero nor its track is unusual. Equally the Bug Atlantic is pretty, nothing else. Greglocock (talk) 02:30, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Automotive  

message: I realise that to get any traction this article needs to throw in a  few recognizable names, but FLW's buildings featured non functional decoration (the Aztec style friezes on his tower blocks) and houses that leaked and fall apart rather quickly (eg Fallingwater), neither of which are useful functions for a house. Greglocock (talk) 01:59, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The question is not whether Wright scrupulously, unfailingly, and successfully applied the principle at all times, but, rather, whether he espoused it and whether his espousal is notable. I think we can be pretty sure that Wright did not intend for any of the buildings he designed to fall apart. In regard to Wright’s alleged “non functional decoration”, you have may noticed that the article accuses Louis Sullivan of the same thing, and Sullivan himself coined the phrase “form follows function”. If we’re not going to disallow discussion of Sullivan on this ground (as obviously we reasonably cannot), then we can’t consistently disallow discussion of Wright on this ground either. TheScotch (talk) 03:14, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frank Lloyd Wright 

message: Is the first image text supposed to read STYLE as now, or FUNCTION? I believe the latter is correct, but not an expert on the topic. Andorand (talk) 15:44, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Form follows STYLE or FUNCTION? 

message: — Assignment last updated by Mgferris13 (talk) 22:01, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Honors English 250H VL1