Talk:Free Spirit (religious movement)

message: Factual error: The Cathars were pretty much a done deal as a social movement by the 14th century; their last big hurrah was in the 1240s.  See entry on them. I'd edit the page directly, but I don't quite know how to fix the containing sentence if I did.  Could someone with more clue about the religious landscape of 14th c. France take a look at this? -—Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.245.97.10 (talk • contribs) 
:I tend to agree that the conglomeration of Free Spirits with Bretheren of the Free Spirits is not correct.  I Just listened to Prof. Teofilo Ruiz, chairman of the department of history at UCLA, lecture # 11 "The Birth of the Inquisition" where he discusses the Free Spirits and he doesn't even mention the Brethren of the Free Spirits as one of the groups he mentions.  The term as used by historians is much broader than the Bretheren and by the way does not include the Cathars as part of the movement at all, as the Brethren of the Free Spirit article seems to imply. Ref: The Teaching Company (Audio book) Teofilo Ruiz, UCLA - The Terror of History - Mystics, Heretics, and Withches in the Western Tradition -{{Subst:unsigned|67.161.243.188
Another questionable sentence is the alleged link to early Protestantism in the last para. Is there evidence that suppression was the actual reason for the disappearing of the movement? This is not "mandatory":  Waldenses exist today, despite heavy medieaval suppression, and other movements merged into something else or just disappeared. --Irmgard 21:23, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: that is not the passage's intention. The fact is that the Roman Catholic church was busy fighting mystical heretic movements in the 1300s, and it was busy fighting Protestantism from the 1400s. Meaning that the prevalent flavour of dissent with mainstream Catholicism shifted. They were certainly repressed out of visibility, it is not disputed that these sects morphed into other forms or continued an underground existence for some time. dab (ᛏ) 12:51, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Cathars 

message: This article seems to just be a recounting of myths propagated by the movements enemies. -- Kendrick7talk 03:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is there two articels? - This one and Heresy of the Free Spirit? Should they not be merged?
This would be difficult as they put completely opposing views of the movement which was actually enormously widespread in northern Europe. But you have a point. On the general note of bias I think its fair to say that an awful lot of the articles on the Wikipedia (with several honourable exceptions) about supposedly heretical movements within Christianity seem to be written from the pro-Establishment POV. It can't have been the case that ANYONE disagreeing with the Church inevitably ended up perverting the Christian message to practise obscene sexual acts!. Admittedly this is partly because the only records we have of them are from the Inquisition etc but they still need to be viewed with some scepticism I think. ThePeg 10:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On the question of bias: The discussion about heresy seems empty to me as all we know about BotFS are from church records, this means that there is nothing else than the recount of "myths propagated by the movements enemies". This should be made clear in the article. It could even be questioned if there ever was a movement. It was a long time since i read about these things but i recall that is a major discussion in R.E. Lerner´s book. /Atzsch 18:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: I found this in the First Epistle of St John -
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall see Him as He is. And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure. Whosoever commiteth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins: and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him."
Perhaps this began the theological position of this movement. I'm not convinced that they went around in orgiastic riots of lust and murder. Its more than likely that they were accused of doing so by a Church which was terrified of a Christian movement which didn't believe in Sin, thus threatening a key element of Church control of the population. My hunch is that the Brethren believed that a real relationship with God meant that the Holy Spirit dwelt within you thus you were in a state of Grace in which you didn't want or need to sin. Just as the Church was appalled by the Cathars' egalitarian and non-materialistic approach to Christianity, thus breaking their monopoly on ritual and sacrament I imagine they were shocked at the idea that man could be resurrected in this life and could break free of the bondage of sin through the Holy Spirit (which was kind of what Christ taught and movements such as the Gnostics and the Lollards etc believed in). ThePeg 20:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's perfectly insightful; that's very much the undertone from reading Porete's book. Even St. Francis' movement began independant from the church around the same time, only to get, as it were, sucked in. I've always been amused by the story, I don't know if it's true, that the Church rewrote his Rule when he was presumed dead somewhere in the Muslim lands, only of course he showed back up. -- Kendrick7talk 05:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Scriptural Justification

message: Here's something from the Intro to the Paulist Press edition of Marguerite Porete's The Mirror Of Simple Souls (ed Ellen Babinsky ) about the Free Spirit. I should point out that the Paulist Press is a CATHOLIC publishing house and a superb resource for all forms of Western Spirituality:
"The Free Spirits were committed to poverty and mendicancy as an outgrowth of the vita apostolica movement. The centrepiece of the Free Spirit perspective seems to be an arduous ascetic practise was necesarry to attain the divine life of union with God. In this view, only through extreme purgation could one divest the self of all will and desire in order to achieve perfection. The motivation for the Free Spirit was the search for spiritual perfection, not a revolutionary antipathy to the church, as some scholars have thought"
'Arduous ascetic practise' and 'extreme purgation' don't sound like extreme sexual and moral debauchery to me. If the Brethren were guilty of this  (ie these reports aren't just church propaganda) I imagine it was towards the later stages of the movement when it is more than likely freebooters were seeing it as a 'Get out of jail free' card doctrinally. The issue here would have been that the Church would have been threatened by the idea that Union with God or individual salvation was open to all rather than dependent on Church mediation. Also the Brethren's anti-authoritarian message would have added to the authorities' fear of what they would have seen as an anarchistic movement whih would have broken their control if it had spread. NB I'm not saying the Brethren weren't necesarily guilty of these things (or at least some of them may have been), I'm just saying the article needs to be more balanced.
There's a lot more detail needed in this article in general, especially the supposed links between the Free Spirit and Eckhardt. Nowhere does Eckhardt talk about sexual licentiousness being allowed, for instance, as he himself said when he was challenged. Like the Brethren, Eckhardt did believe that a direct experience of/union with God was possible for everyone and he did believe that God was immanent as well as transcendent but he did not champion the things the Brethren were accused of - eg sexual licentiousness, naked masses, rape, murder, theft etc. ThePeg 11:01, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: More Detail

message: As if to prove my point, the only thing said here about the Beghards was that they conducted masses naked, presumably the implication being that they took part in mass gay orgies or something. To represent this instance fairly you would have to add that the idea behind this was that they were trying to celebrate a pre-Lapserian innocence ie go naked as Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. Now we might find this bizarre and even a bit silly, creepy even (and they may well have indulged in mass homosexual activity) but the best that can be said on this evidence is that they were Christian Nudists. Its also worth remembering that William Blake thought the same thing and would often be found sitting in his garden with his wife stark naked quietly reading poetry to each other.
So one could say that the Beghards are a little unfairly represented here... ThePeg
:I'll grant you that the purpose of that "naked" tidbit isn't really clear to me in this context. But, instead of filling this talkpage, why don't you begin fixing things in the article? dab (�) 11:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ah, no, WP:BOLD applies still; in case your additions get reverted by someone, you are kindly asked to come back to the talkpage and argue about it instead of just reverting back again, but as long as nobody objects, you are welcome to improve the article as you see fit. dab (�) 15:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Beghards

message: So guys, what do you think? I'd like to revamp the article putting both points of view - what the Brethren were accused of doing and what recent scholarship says they may have been about. I will include stuff which is in this article, contextualise it a bit and add some more analysis. ThePeg 10:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sound's good, especially since you have Babinsky's preface there in front of you. I think she provides some of the mosr up-to-date scholarship on this. -- Kendrick7talk 00:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite?

message: Right, I've done it. I look forward to heated debate and angry comments but would be happy to change anything that's wrong. I am sure it could be better laid out and expressed - any suggestions welcome. I haven't put extra sources yet. Will do.ThePeg 12:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey medieval heresy has been on my back burner. Good work though I might challenge a few concepts here and there. -- Kendrick7talk 19:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: First Draft

message: Before this article gets merged with the Heresy of the Free Spirit article could someone have a look at the new draft. Its very different now. Thanks. ThePeg 15:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merging

message: Kendrick, did you add the bit about the Friends of God, Eckhart etc? Like it! Let's keep it in!
Although I have to say I'm not sure the Friends of God were a lay movement. Tauler was part of the official church as was Suso. Indeed I think Tauler studied under Eckhart as a young novice. He was also called at different points to decide between his conscience and Church decrees when the Pope came into conflict with the Bavarian King (I think it was). The Friends were careful to avoid charges of heresy. Could you look into this?  ThePeg 10:05, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wasn't me -- this article is still on the far reaches of my radar screen. New Advent says the Friends of God were "both ecclesiastical and lay." The article on Tauler here strongly implies that he may have studied under Eckhart. I don't see anything about a King even in New Advent's article on him though. As New Advent is in the public domain, I'll try to merge this over soon. -- Kendrick7talk 18:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New Bit

message: Dear all, I would like to suggest this picture for the article:
http://www.beloit.edu/~hist190/heresy1.jpg
Now, I don't know how to put it on the page. If someone does could they do it for me? Many thanks. Caption might be: Heretics being burnt at the stake. Not very cheerful but to the point. ThePeg 17:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pic

message: How were the Brethren millenarians? What evidence is there for this?Kortoso (talk) 20:39, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Millenarian?

message: Merge with Heresy of the Free Spirit ??
- 179.210.192.170 (talk) 18:03, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with [[Heresy of the Free Spirit]] ?? 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Heresy of the Free Spirit which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 21:16, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress