Talk:Krak des Chevaliers

message: I was going to move the text that was posted to the main article, but I just discovered it was a copyvio from  anyway. At best it was only marginally relevant, so it doesn't really matter. Adam Bishop 05:27, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyvio 

message: The section 'Description of the Castle' seems to be copied directly from [], which is a copyrighted page. Shouldn't that section be removed, or at least rewritten?
:You're right! I think that section was copied over from a duplicate article. It should be easy to incorporate it into the rest of the text without violating copyright. Thanks! Adam Bishop 15:21, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Description violates copyright? 

message: The name written in Arabic: قلعة الحصن does not match the name transliterated in Latin characters: Ḥiṣn al-Akrād. The name in Arabic literally translates Castle of the Fort, which is the official name used in Syrian publications, and which is a translation of the French name.
It is known, however, that the Syrian government has changed the names of many sites, regions and geographical features for political reasons, and in many places references to Kurds - and other ethnic and religious groups - have been altered.
I'm not sure whether this fort was ever called of The Kurds in Arabic. I believe it was referred to as AlKark الكرك, which is obviously an Arabisation of the French name. --Alif 17:46, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well Hisn al-Akrad was definitely the medieval Arabic name for it. Al-Karak would probably be Kerak, a different castle. Adam Bishop 18:15, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: At the risk of sounding ignorant, I thought the French name translated to 'Fortress of the Knights', presumably named so because of its association with the Hospitallers.  91.109.166.20 09:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The name in Arabic 

message: I would like to know how many towers Crac des Chevaliers deafended by?
:As the article says, "The Hospitallers rebuilt it and expanded it into the largest Crusader fortress in the Holy Land, adding an outer wall 30 meters thick with seven guard towers 8-10 meters thick". Adam Bishop 19:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many towers was Crac Defended by? 

message: The following are segments translated from the french article.
* Jean-Claude Voisin, Le Temps des forteresses en Syrie du nord : VIe-XVe siècles, éd. Terre du Liban, 2000 ;
* Collectif, La Méditerranée des Croisades, Citadelles & Mazenod, 2000 ;
*  James Cocks, Le Crac des Chevaliers: The Architecture of Defense, Mimeo, 2002 [lire en ligne (PDF)] ;
* Paul Deschamp, Terre Sainte Romane, Zodiaque, 1964.
Private webpage with history of the castle.
* Webpage on the castle's history and pictures.
=== Architecture ===
Over a hundred years of construction led the Krak des Chevaliers to exemplify the apogee of defencive military achertecture in the middle ages. An intelligent mix of topographic and archetectural elements taken from the European, Byzantine and Arabe cultures turned this location into an impregnable fortress even when under guard by a meager garrison. Baybars himself turned to stealth instead of strength becuse he knew that he would have failled otherwise, even though only 300 men stood as defenders.
=== Terrain ===
The fortress was built on top of a hill 750 meters high, characterised by steep flanks, wich rendered the siegecraft of the day ineffective. Later earthworks reinforced this natural advantage.
=== Construction ===
==== XII century ====
Following the earthquakes of 1157 and 1170, the Krak was nearly destroyed and required extencive reconstruction. Prior to these events little is know of the original stronghold's shape and size. The works starting in 1170 produced the heart of the future fortress. Itw a was a large triangular hall some 270m long and 9m large where the Knights Hospitaller lived. Conceived as a keep, the hall was vaulted in  ogival fashion and flanked by five square towers. That same year a chapel was installed in the north-eastern tower. Later in 1180, a larger chapel was built in the same location arched in the  barrel fashion and filled with arcades differing from the prominent soutern european fashion of the era yet wich became caracteristic of the religious buildings built by the crusaders in the levant.
The central tower rested on an immence vaulted grainery cappable of holding up to five years' rations and feed. Driking water necessary to hold such a lenthy siege was drained from the terraced tower tops down into local resevoirs.
A sixth tower, named "the tower of the latrines" was built to the north-west in 1190. It held twelve latrines and was linked to the knights' dormatory, keeping sanitary conditions at a satisfactory level even in the case of prolongues sieges. The historical importance of this tower originated with it being hte first euroipean construction ot be equiped with machicolations, a design taken from middle-eastern military architechture. This new fortification was also equiped with a Sally port, adding further importance to the position.
Near the end of the century the masters of the Krak begun construction of an outer bailey to protect the north of the castle.
==== XIII century ====
In 1202, after another earth quake, further works where done to reinforce the Krak from attacks as we as future seismic activities. Therefore, a glacis was built following the south and western flanks of the fortress. This entailled placing large stones in a slope extending outwards from the base of the walls. This filled two important functions: firstly, it reinforced the wall agaisnt seismic waves which had already played havoc on the fortifications of the Krak des chevaliers
En 1202, après un nouveau tremblement de terre, d'autres travaux sont engagés qui renforcent considérablement le Krak autant contre les attaques que contre les séismes. Ainsi, un « glacis » est construit sur les flancs sud et ouest de la forteresse. Il s'agit d'un appareillage de pierres de taille en pente forte qui s'appuie sur la muraille et l'« encoquille ». Ce glacis remplit deux fonctions distinctes : d'abord, il renforce le mur intérieur contre les séismes qui ont déjà ravagé plusieurs fois le Krak ; ensuite, il abrite une galerie percée d'archères, ce qui augmente encore la puissance de feu de la place forte.
Dans le même temps, le flanc sud est considérablement modifié. Les tours carrées sont remplacées par deux tours rondes et une troisième en fer à cheval est construite au milieu de la muraille. Elle constitue un renfort défensif sur le flanc sud particulièrement exposé aux attaques. Un niveau est ajouté à la galerie primitive. La tour au milieu du flanc ouest est aussi modifiée et s'arrondit.
La cour intérieure est également remaniée et un bâtiment s'adosse maintenant au flanc est.
En 1250, Saint Louis s'installe en Orient et prend la tête des Francs. Il amène avec lui des architectes qui aideront les croisés à défendre leur places fortes. Un nouveau rempart est alors construit, probablement sur les conseils de ces architectes. Ce rempart mesure 9 m de haut, est placé à une distance de 17 à 25 m de la forteresse centrale et est défendu par douze tours rondes à la manière des standards de l'architecture militaire européenne de l'époque, ce qui rend les projectiles moins efficaces, ces tours ne présentant pas d'angles saillants plus fragiles. Le second mur est placé en contrebas du noyau central, ce qui permet aux défenseurs de tirer sur les attaquants depuis les deux positions.
Ce mur possède une seule porte à l'est qui débouche à l'intérieur sur une rampe étroite menant après des virages serrés à l'entrée de la muraille intérieure. Cette rampe rend la progression des assaillants difficile, et empêche l'utilisation d'un bélier contre la porte des fortifications centrales.
Un cloître est aussi bâti probablement à la même époque. S'adossant au bâtiment de la cour centrale, il prend pour modèle les cloîtres d'Île-de-France, ce qui semble indiquer qu'il fut construit en l'honneur de Saint Louis, ou tout du moins par ses architectes.
Des écuries sont également construites contre le flanc sud de la muraille extérieure.
=== Strategic Role ===
The Krak played a fundamental role in the strategic defence of the Franksih states in the levant. The king Andrew II of Hungary defined it as being "the Key to the Christian Lands", whiles the chronicler Ibn al-Athir called it "the bone that chokes the Muslims". This importance was due to two principle factors: its geographic position and its impregnable demeanor, as such that it was never taken by force after its initial fall to the crusaders in 1109 and rendered nearly invulnerable following its subsiquent reinforcements.
===Defence of the Latin states===
The Krak was knot in the string of fortifications assuring the defence the Frankish territoiries. From on top its keep one could see the Forts of Chastel-Blanc to the east and Akkar to the south. Signal fires could therefore be lit and indicate the encroachments of ennemies on the County of Tripoli.
An other advantage of the Krak was geographic position, wich was paradoxically off the major routes, making large scale movements against its position even harder. Victorious after  Hattin and fielding an army of 40 000 men, Saladin, during his movements nothwards, decided against investing the Karak des Chevaliers becuse of difficulties this would of entailled. The Knights Hospitaller garrisson organised multiple raids against replenishment convoys of the rear-guard, wich disrupted much of the muslim reconquest.
=== A Base of Operations ===
With its excellent location on the frontier of the crusader kingdoms and muslim lands, its defencive strength and size (it could lodge upwards of 2 000 armed knights) the Krak made for an ideal base of operations from wich to launch attacks and raids against villages and opposing armies. As could be seen in 1230, when the Emir of Homs refused to pay tribute to the count of Tripoli. Templars and Hospitallers assembled at the Krak with an army of 300 knights and 2 700 foot soldiers and launched successive assaults on the lands arounds Homs until the emir renewed his payments. These rapide and destructive raids where unparalleled, while the fortification acted as a haven once the pilaging was complete.
More to come.
--Dryzen 15:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  French translation 

message: With its excellent location on the frontier of the crusader kingdoms and muslim lands, its defencive strength and size (it could lodge upwards of 2 000 armed knights) the Krak made for an ideal base of operations from wich to launch attacks and raids against villages and opposing armies. As could be seen in 1230, when the Emir of Homs refused to pay tribute to the count of Tripoli. Templars and Hospitallers assembled at the Krak with an army of 300 knights and 2 700 foot soldiers and launched successive assaults on the lands arounds Homs until the emir renewed his payments. These rapide and destructive raids where unparalleled, while the fortification acted as a haven once the pilaging was complete.
More to come.
--Dryzen 15:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Base of Operations 

message: I think a Castle/Military Structure infobox could be quite helpful here. LordAmeth 10:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Similarly here.--Dryzen 15:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: I think I can get this, by time, to GA status. First of all, we need to clear a few things. The name should be changed to Krak des Chevaliers; almost only the UNESCO identifies the castle with this name and most major sources, Britannica, Encarta and Columbia encyclopedias and Syrian websites including the Syrian Ministry of Tourism website, use Krak des Chevaliers. Additionally, the name is more commonly used as proven by the higher Google search results count. Also, concerning the infobox, I think a military structure infobox is more appropriate to include, at least in the article's lead. I think we can add the WHS infobox in a lower part of the article, perhaps in a section dedicated to the designation, to be created with expansion, of course. I will move the article if there are no objections, in two days. —Anas talk? 15:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If I should ever gain the time again I'll finish my translations. Taht should give the article a push to GA. A MilHist Structure box is very apropriate. As to the Move post it up in the medieval project and milhist taskforce to get some more participants in on the idea. --Dryzen 17:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This was located at Krak des Chevaliers until it was moved in December because of the "official" UN name of it. I think it can safely be moved back. Adam Bishop 17:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can support either Krak des Chevaliers or Crac des Chevaliers, but not Krac des Chevaliers.  I assume this is a typo?  Or are there actual sources which use this version of the spelling? --Elonka 19:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably a typo. Adam moved it mistakingly to Krac, I guess. I couldn't move it myself because the destination page needs deletion (edited after previous move), so I contacted Adam. It will probably be moved shortly. —Anas talk? 19:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name and infobox 

message: I'm all for improving this article to Good article status.  :)  I was recently involved with a push to get Knights Templar to WP:FA, and ran into a lot of information about the Knights Hospitaller and the Krak des Chevaliers while doing research.  I'll see what I can do about helping with expansion and referencing.  If there's anything in particular I can help find, please let me know! --Elonka 18:04, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great! We're two now. I am going to be extremely busy in the few coming weeks (SAT, tests) and all my work will probably be in the weekends, but as soon as I'm free I'll plug away. :-) I've gathered a few online sources already. If you like, I'll post them all in a subpage of my user page. We'll probably need some printed sources too, which is not going to be easy for me. There aren't many public libraries where I live. Regards, Anas talk? 18:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats three really, but sadly I've had my availability drasticly cut short. So it might enevitably only look like two... :o( I'll be definitly keeping and eye open in any event. --Dryzen 13:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice. I took a look at the French article, and it looks pretty comprehensive. I noticed you translated most of the architecture and construction sections. That should be quite helpful. Anyway, I've created the page with the sources, here. —Anas talk? 13:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you need help with finding book sources, I have lots of crusade books (both primary and secondary) and quick access to academic libraries. Adam Bishop 21:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All quotes, statistics, and facts likely to be challenged should be cited for GA and higher. Regards. --Kebeta (talk) 20:46, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: GA status

message: 100 feet thick? I don't think so. Do we have a better source for this than that TV show? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 13:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure how accurate my sources are, but I did find sources to the contrary, see above. 12.22.250.4 23:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Walls 

message: There are plenty of scholarly reliable sources on Krak. No need for TV shows and junk like that. Perspicaris (talk) 14:43, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: I'm currently rewriting the article but can't decide on a lead image. There are quite a few striking pictures to choose from. To help the decision I've added a gallery of them below. It might help if the infobox was removed so the image could be 400px instead of the current 300px. There are some other options here, but I thought those below were the best candidates for lead image. Nev1 (talk) 20:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead picture

message: In the middle of the 'Later History' section:
The culmination of Deschamp's work at the castle was the publication of Les Châteaux des Croisés en Terre Sainte I: le Crac des Chevaliers in 1934, with detailed plans by Anus.[36]
'by Anus'? I don't have access to the work listed in the ref. Can someone who does check this is for real?1812ahill (talk) 13:36, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup. His name was François Anus. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:19, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this for real? 

message: Media reports have stated that on 12 July 2013 a Syrian Government air strike caused significant damage to a store room and one of the towers of Krak des Chevaliers. This claim appeared to be supported by amateur video footage. Has this been confirmed and if so should reference be made to it in the article? Buistr (talk) 10:25, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Present state of castle

message: The last (and uncited) sentence of the Etymology section reads "The word "Krak" (Krak) was known to be the construction of a fortified fort by the Crusades in Palestine and Syria."
I can't make head nor tail of this. Does it mean anything? If so, could someone in the know please clarify? Or else delete? Nice article, btw. Haploidavey (talk) 18:03, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Unsourced so I've gone ahead and removed it. Nev1 (talk) 18:37, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baffling sentence 

message: There is no reference to the Israeli airstrikes during the 1980s'.Royalcourtier (talk) 02:20, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Royalcourtier, thanks for the feedback. Would you know when to find more information about it? Nev1 (talk) 15:56, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israeli airstrikes 

message: Krak des Chevaliers does not appear to have ever really been the residence of a lord/noble, but rather to have always been there to house a garrison of troops. (or an order of knights, which is, in many ways, much the same thing) The specific group of troops/knights in question changed, during the course of history, but...
A castle private fortified residence of a lord/noble. A large heavily fortified military structure, meant to house a garrison of troops, is called a fortress. Not a castle.
It can be noted to be commonly referred to, as a castle, but it should at the very least be noted, that it actually isn't one, but rather is clearly a fortress.--85.228.52.251 (talk) 02:14, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The article does say "The southwest tower was designed to house the rooms of the Grand Master of the Knights Hospitaller", which would fit with it potentially being a residence for high-status individuals. Richard Nevell (talk) 09:24, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should be noted as not actually being a castle.