Talk:John Balliol

message: John did not 'finally stand up for himself' in the alliance with France.  The direction of affairs was taken from his hands in July 1295 by a council of twelve-made up equally of earls, barrons and churchmen.  It was this council that went on to conclude what was to become known as the Auld alliance.
Rcpaterson 08:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Auld Alliance 

message: I was always led to believe that John Baliol was born at Buittle see  Brendandh 12:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggested he was probably born at Barnard Castle where, according to numerous records, his parents spent much of their time and was his father's principal seat in Britain. In normal circumstances that would have made most sense. This was only a suggestion based upon, as I have said, the most likely probability. I was pounced upon and a revert was carried out upon my edits accordingly. When does one opinion become superior to anothers? It is this sort of conduct on Wikipedia which has dramatically slowed my contributions. I just cannot be bothered with it. David Lauder 16:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  David, you're the only one trying to make "one opinion superior to the others". If you are to be believed, your Victorian source thinks Barnwell is a possibility, whereas modern sources think Picardy or Galloway. Seems to me the current version making it clear that his birth is unknown but suggesting three possibilities is fair. No? BTW, it was Derborgaill ingen Ailin who had the baby, not John de Balliol, so her locational preferences (Galloway very much) would be most important than any John's, though she did travel about too. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no substantive evidence to demonstrate that Victorian scholars were not as industrious and careful as modern scholars (although everyone in any century is bound to make the occasional error), with great access to the bulk of the ancient records, as is demonstrated by the endless volumes of transcriptions available today. Your continued denigration of many great scholars in preference for those twentieth century writers who play a tune more in keeping with the gaelic/ultra-nationalist line you seem to be pushing does you and Wikipedia no credit. David Lauder 07:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Lauder, darling, I know you have a warped perception of reality ... but I think in this instance, there's little reason to bring such ignorant paranoia into the equation, since the topic of John's birthplace is not really impinged by any "Gaelic/ultra-nationalist" line, which isn't a feature of any modern scholarship anyways. If by the latter you're referring to a tendency to gives Gaels the Gaelic forms of their names, well this is just a feature of modern historiography in general where modern historians do tend to give people the form of their name according to their national or cultural background, hence all those Władysławs instead of, as in your day, Ladislaus. I doubt that non-Scots such as David Dumville, Thomas Owen Clancy, James Fraser can really be accused of Gaelic nationalism. Creating such fantasies will not help you on wikipedia, but just make you look like a paranoid nut-case. That's how it'll make you look mind, not what I think of you. Anyways, Victorian scholars and 19th cent. scholars can indeed be good (they had far more time to write than moderns) when you know how to use them and which ones to use, but I know from experiencing your edits that you do not. These scholars used on their own simply are not of equal worth ... they are at the early stage of scholarly debates which have moved on considerably since they were writing; venerating them like you do is almost equivalent to learning science from science books of the same period, and then claiming everything after is "rewriting" or "Revision". Not the best way. There are some Amish communities in the USA though who'd respect this position, but I'm not sure too many users here would. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 08:17, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We British say Munich, not Munchen, Rome, not Roma, etc. Poles say Jerzy, not George. We have always written in our language with our spellings. If you are a PC American you might not understand us. I don't think there is a comparison between the sciences and the recording and interpretation of history. There is nothing wrong with my understanding of history. I was probably studying these volumes when you were still in nappies. But when we have a Queen of Malcolm Canmore and successive monarchs thereafter constantly anglicising as much as they could I don't try and rewrite history by suggesting that Gaelic was still widely used into the 15th century and I don't insist that all and sundry, after 800 years of history books citing their names otherwise, be slapped in the face with gaelic names which no-one recognises. Unfortunately you are one of those people who feel that the modern generation and their opinions are just so superior to all those who came before us. I don't. I am not attempting to rewrite history, just to make it more widely accessible. David Lauder 10:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Place of Birth

message: This portion seems unencyclopaedic.  I suggest it be deleted. 50n0m4 01:53, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well spotted. Quite right. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 02:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Here Another Version"

message: According to the article he is his own father!
--81.158.232.65 (talk) 16:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "His Own father!"

message: The current title is an awkward halfway house.  Strict interpretation of WP:NCROY would give us "John of Scotland", but his common name is "John Balliol".  What do people think? PatGallacher (talk) 02:32, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the new consensus the standard title would be John, King of Scotland, but I don't see why that would be an improvement. His common name is John Balliol, so we certainly want to use that in the title so people know who we're talking about, but he's felt not to be the primary topic for that name (maybe that issue could be discussed), so we add "King of Scotland" to distinguish him from the other John Balliol (his father). Seems perfectly fine to me.--Kotniski (talk) 08:56, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Title of article

message: The section entitled "Accession as King of Scotland" contains a couple of rather gnomic statements:
he was a great-great-great-grandson of King David I through his mother (and therefore one generation further than his main rival Robert Bruce...) 
What does "one generation further" mean in the above? 
Regarding the council of twelve: These men were more likely a group of advisors to King John...
More likely than what?
These could do with clarification (or possibly deletion). Tonywalton Talk 22:55, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some unclear statements 

message: " John abdicated at Stracathro near Montrose on 10 July 1296. Here the arms of Scotland were formally torn from John's surcoat..."   Torn off by whom? It's important to know - not least because it throws light upon whether it was actually abdication - that this ritual humiliation was carried out, not by disgruntled Scots but by his puppetmaster, England's king, Edward, who was related to John Balliol by marriage.31.55.111.222 (talk) 09:55, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Another unclear statement

message: The article names two different translations of this epithet without acknowledging (except by footnote) that various interpretations exist. It seems to me that both mentions should be the same and that the first one should carry the footnote. Am I right?
Ed8r (talk) 17:07, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes.  --  Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 10:17, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Toom Tabard . . . again 

message: I note that the Infobox mention of Picardy is unreferenced. And then there is this:
* Could Scots king be buried under the Post Office? - "Peter Robinson, museums officer in human history at Doncaster Museum said: “We know that Edward Balliol lived here for a while and died here..."
--Mais oui! (talk) 05:02, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Place of death and burial 

message: Right now, John is said to be dead "around 25 November 1314" (or on that exact day according to the lede), with a reference to John of Fordun. However, I am unable to find confirmation in recent books. According to the ODNB, "His death occurred shortly before 4 January 1315". Unless someone can find a reference, I'll edit the article to reflect that. – Swa cwæð Ælfgar (talk) 16:46, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. – Swa cwæð Ælfgar (talk) 07:34, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of death 

message: The article lists as one of his potential children Agnes (or Maud or Anne) Balliol, but the article for her husband says that she is the daughter of John I de Balliol (his article says so too), making her King John Balliol's sister, not his daughter.  Are there conflicting sources about whether she is his daughter or sister?  Emperor001 (talk) 17:37, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Daughter or Sister

message: What is going on with Wikipedia and coats of arms?
As I have mentioned elsewhere the Strathearn arms have their tinctures the wrong way round and here, at the very least the illustration does not match the description below it.
I have yet to work out whether I can alter .png files, but surely whoever drew it in the first palve should fix it? Freuchie (talk) 09:33, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Is the image wrong or the description? Without a reference, one shouldn't assume it is the image that is the problem. Agricolae (talk) 12:57, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coat of Arms 

message: Hello. I feel that perhaps the lead image could be improved upon by using a fourteenth century portrayal which could have been drawn by a contemporary, seeing as Balliol died in 1314. Alternatively, we could use an image of any of the pennies minted during his reign or his seal.
Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:41, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead image