Talk:Internal combustion engine cooling

message: 193.113.48.9 (talk) 13:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Early comments

message: The article states that;
"Today practically no air-cooled automotive engines are built, air cooling being fraught with manufacturing expense and maintenance problems."
I feel that there needs to be a brief explanation of why this is, what are these costs? Don't worry, I'm not a VW fan boy, I'd just like to see some more information.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.111.8.137 (talk) 17:13, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither explanation is right, it's mostly to do with air-cooled heads having higher peak combustion temperatures and thus higher (and no longer acceptable) NOx emissions. This is why Porsche have even used water-cooled heads on the air-cooled 911 flat 6. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  explanation for decline in air cooled engines 

message: 150 d  celsius  pressure 70 lbs/inch^2 
not in a car 
Wdl1961 (talk) 14:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  150 d  celsius  pressure 70 lbs/inch^2 not in a car 

message: Do we still believe in this? Andy Dingley (talk) 17:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consensus before page moves? 

message: "A fully closed IC engine cooling system" - someone's put a 'dubious' there but in fact this system does exist and is called keel cooling.
Here are two company selling external hull-mounted heat exchangers: http://www.fernstrum.com/ http://www.waltergear.com/kc.htm but there are other ways such as welding half-pipes along the keel and hull.  Here is an example of a very basic system, 2 pipes: http://www.ronlloyd.com/oddstuff/sling.jpg
some designs on metal boats essentially use the entire keel and the hull as a heatsink.
It has some advantages:
* good for use in muddy/gritty water where ingesting raw water for an on-board heat exchanger could cause problems (eg dredgers)
* good for use in areas with floating seaweed or trash as there is no strainer to block
* Raw water pump is eliminated.
* Quiet since there is no continious coolant stream splashing out of the vessel
* engine coolant is kept separate to raw water
* especially effective in colder waters
it has some disadvantages:
* requires holes in the hull
* can't be used on the hard (when the boat is out of the water) - a conventional water intake can be connected to a hose.
* not very efficient if the boat is stationary or slow
* not very efficient when covered in barnicles and growth
* some designs can increase drag
* potential to be holed - can be difficult to fix in the water and contaminates the coolant
* another possible source of galvanic corrosion
I will remove the note.
--HighlyErratic 18:37, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  the note on the first of the 3 ship water cooling diagrams 

message: There is repeated IP edit-warring (4R overall, 3R today), to add the sentence, "Cooling is even more important in regions where the climate is very hot."
The trouble is that this claim is inaccurate to the point of being seriously misleading. It is either trivially simplistic, thus unencyclopedic, or else it is such an over-simplification to become wrong.
Climate is either 20ºC (standard temperature and pressure) or an exceptional shift of 20ºC either way to 40ºC (hot desert) or 0ºC (frozen). In engineering terms, a 20ºC shift just isn't much. It's only 293–253K. Engine cooling is there to remove excess heat from the cylinder head, via the cooling medium (usually water) and reject it to the air. The combustion temperature inside the head is very high, but that's not important (it's mostly cooled by doing work in expanding against the piston). The cylinder head combustion chamber surface can sit at a couple of hundred ºC and the coolant is 100ºC, or maybe 130ºC for a high performance pressurised system. Transfer out of the cylinder block is then by mechanically-pumped convection. This temperature is also controlled by thermostats etc.  Note that this is not changed between a hoot or cold climate! Whether the engine is running in a Siberian winter or in a Dubai summer, the coolant stays at much the same temperature. If it fails, it will overheat the engine in the Winter too. Overheated Winter engines are not uncommon, as frozen-pipe failures are just as bad as any other burst.
Only when we look at the radiator does climate make any difference. This has to transfer heat based on a difference of either 100-20 = 80 or 100 or 60 ºC. From Newton's law of cooling (and given that this transfer is convective, not radiative) we're looking at the radiator becoming 25% less effective between Dagenham and Dubai. 25% is not a deal-breaker change in engineering terms.  Note that this is also only affecting the radiator, not the engine block, coolant pump or coolant systems.  Modern vehicles will also have oversized radiators and thermostatic fan cooling of them. So in practical terms, the car in Dubai is running its radiator fan for longer, not even requiring a bigger radiator.
The trouble is that this claim is inaccurate to the point of being seriously misleading. It is either trivially simplistic, thus unencyclopedic, or else it is such an over-simplification to become wrong. Certainly (and per WP:BURDEN too), such an over-simplified statement should not be re-added here. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:01, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hot climates 

message: " air needs 2000 times the flow velocity and thus a recirculating air fan needs ten times the power of a recirculating water pump."
This needs much more explanation, if it is at all correct.. Going from 2000 times flow velocity to 10 times power... how exactly? Where is the calculation / approximation? Flow velocity by itself tells us nothing..
Furthermore: that whole section is sketchy and seems (what they call here) original research: Many claims but no proof or references. 
It says something about "water boils around the desired engine temperature" ... thats a funny statement. Water boils at 100* C, and thats surely not a desired / optimal engine temperature. (You want as high as possible without breaking things, good for efficiency and power)...
I really think this article needs a rewrite, or at least removal of dubious, incorrect or unreferenced parts..
Richard  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.163.242.182 (talk) 23:28, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Medium.. air / water section dubious 

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