Talk:List of kicks after the siren in the VFL/AFL

message: Is there a place for "other notable after the siren kicks?" I am, of course, specifically referring to Stephen Kernahan's miss in the 1993 Rd 2 draw between Essendon and Carlton. Aspirex (talk) 11:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Should Jack Riewoldt's kick against St Kilda be included? I know technically he didn't miss becuase he didn't make the distance but it was still a shot on goal. Jonesy (talk) 09:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I take a miss as including not making the distance.  I say add it in. --Perry Middlemiss (talk) 01:53, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Will get around to it tonight - thanks for the tip. Jonesy (talk) 04:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jack Riewoldt 

message: I don't think that his behind to tie the scores against Fremantle in 2006 should be included as the AFL ruled that the match had ended, therefore, the kick began after the siren, and the score was not registered.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morstar (talk • contribs) 13:29, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's still an "after the siren kick" of interest.  If Baker had not drawn the game with his score, then the whole controversy about whether the siren had sounded or not probably wouldn't have occurred as Freemantle would have won anyway.  I think the note appended to the entry takes care of this. --Perry Middlemiss (talk) 22:24, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Was about three seconds remaining on the clock after Franklin kicked the goal. The siren didn't sound until after the centre bounce. Jevansen (talk) 03:28, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Steven Baker 

message: An entry has been included in the "Goal to draw" table stating that Jonanthan Brown of the Brisbane Lions scored a goal after the siren to draw the Round 20, 2007 game against the Sydney Swans.
An examination of the incident (http://www.vtap.com/video/Jonathan+Brown+last+second+.../CL0084937650_39a27b998_Q0wwMjA4ODU5NDk1fmluOjI) shows that the kick is taken 8 seconds before the siren, with the goal crossing the line some 4 seconds later.  So this incident doesn't qualify.  Close but... --Perry Middlemiss (talk) 10:27, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for removing it. That would have to be at least the fifth time that someone has tried to add it to the list. Jevansen (talk) 11:38, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Having the actual video clip of the mark and kick certainly helps. --Perry Middlemiss (talk) 22:21, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jonathan Brown - Goal to draw  

message: Oughtn't the title be "After-the-siren kicks...", as the phrase is a compound modifier? Or, perhaps less awkwardly, "Kicks after the siren..."? --76.121.3.11 (talk) 04:56, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The title should be changed to something more "appropriate". Chicken-7  talk 07:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No arguments from me. You will need to create an account though if you want to move the page. Jevansen (talk) 12:22, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh, I was more suggesting it as something an already registered user might want to do :) --76.121.3.11 (talk) 19:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  change of title? 

message: I refer to entry 5 in the "Goal to Win" table - Hickey for Footscray over Carlton in 1944.  This game took place on 2nd September 1944 with the final score being Fo 12.17 (89) - Ca 13.10 (88).
However, research indicates it is actually a point to win, rather than a goal.  According to "The Argus" of 04.09.1944: "With less than a minute left Ryan levelled the scores with a behind, and, pressing on the attack, the ball went to Hickey, who marked just before the bell rang. With people swarming on to the ground his 45 to 50 yards punt kick went off the hands of Chitty for a behind. There was a tense moment while the goal umpire conferred with the field umpire, and the excitement was intense when one flag was raised."  (See http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11359509)  
If there are no objections it's my intention to move this entry to the correct table. --Perry Middlemiss (talk) 23:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Go for it! Can't find a more reliable source than that. Jevansen (talk) 05:55, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hickey Goal to Win - 1944? 

message: This should be limited to set-shots taken after the siren. Cases where the umpire has failed to hear the siren and a winning goal has been scored afterwards, or where a kick is taken on the run as the siren goes and there is contention to whether or not it was kicked in time, are not comparable to the normal drama of a set-shot after the siren, and shouldn't be included in the list.
Aspirex (talk) 11:55, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shots on the run do not belong 

message: After some consideration, I think this article should be renamed. The article isn't so much about KICKS after the siren as SCORING after the siren, from set shots, and more importantly, game-deciding scoring from set shots. I'm not sure I have a good suggestion for what the name should be, though - at least without it becoming incredibly long-winded. I just think that the title, while perhaps colloquially correct in Australian English sporting parlance, would be better if it was clearer. Thoughts? Metao (talk) 05:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Metao. What about List of games decided after the siren in Australian rules football? Jevansen (talk) 08:33, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Technically you are right, but the common description of the events in this list is "kick after the siren" (68,000 items), not "Scores after the siren" (3560) or "games decided after the siren" (4).  And to be pedantic, unless there is a handball in progress as the siren sounds, only kicks would ever occur after the siren. The list includes wins and misses, so you can't really say the results were all decided after the siren. The-Pope (talk) 15:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: True, only kicks can occur after the siren. And it's also true that, although this article is very listcrufty, it's not, in fact, a "List". And, as you say, missed opportunities are included. There is the corner case of how to deal with a tie-breaking (or tie-causing) handball, released before the siren, and going through the goals after the siren, thus becoming a behind. But since there don't appear to be any of those yet, perhaps we can wait on a rename until there is. Metao (talk) 07:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename II 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: To update Missed opportunities with Tom Hawkins behind to draw the game against GWS Giants 2017
Tom Hawkins	Geelong Cats	GWS Giants	2017	68-68	Behind
Sources: 
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/geelong/harry-taylor-taking-positives-out-of-geelongs-draw-with-gws-despite-tom-hawkins-after-siren-miss/news-story/ee0a0bd88170b5f3829b14e7bb0bd4cf
https://thewest.com.au/sport/afl/tom-hawkins-kicks-a-point-on-the-siren-as-gws-and-geelong-fight-out-a-thrilling-draw-ng-b88524556z
http://www.geelongcats.com.au/news/2017-07-05/hawkins-no-worries-with-whistle 217.138.6.194 (talk) 09:57, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Not required. It is already listed in the behind to draw section.The-Pope (talk) 14:12, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 25 August 2017 

message: A most interesting episode of the umpire not hearing the bell occurred in the SANFL first semi-final in 1945. As a child, I remember asking my father if an umpiring mistake ever changed the result of a grand final. He said that in the 1945 1st semi-final, the umpire didn't hear the bell and West Torrens kicked a goal after the siren, winning the game. West Torrens then won the preliminary & grand finals and thus the premiership. Years later I found out that Torrens actually won by 6 points so I concluded that my father's recollection wasn't entirely accurate. Nonetheless, now that newspapers are online, it can be confirmed that Torrens were able to kick a goal after the siren and win a game that otherwise would have been drawn because the umpire did not hear the bell. I think it's a sufficiently interesting story that it deserves its own special entry. I'll write it tomorrow if no one objects.Graemem56 (talk) 12:57, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you ever end up writing about it? I think it would fit in here: AFL siren controversy#Similar incidents Electricmaster (talk) 10:03, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  SANFL

message: For instance, should 1966 link like this: 1966?
Specifically, I'm talking about the years in the table. Electricmaster (talk) 10:00, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should season years be linked? 

message: I've just seen that Noah Cumberland's 2022 escapades of playing on before the siren went has been listed as a 'missed opportunity'. I think that's a very generous application of the term. There are many moments where the siren has gone just before a player was able to kick for goal in open play, or take a mark, or whatever. I can't see this circumstance being classified as a genuine missed opportunity (if it is, then where is Courtenay Dempsey's similar effort circa 2011?), and am advocating for its removal. Gibbsyspin 00:30, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Could Cumberland and Dempsey maybe go under "Miscellaneous" or a separate section for playing on after the siren. Agree they certainly shouldn't be listed amongst the missed opportunities. Jevansen (talk) 01:22, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  'No kick'? Surely not 

message: Hello all. Thanks for your patience and good grace in the RM discussion above. Now that we've reached a resolution on the result and the page has a clearly defined scope, I think we can work to getting this towards featured list status. Firstly, I want to leave a permanent link to the pre-RM diff, just so that existing data isn't lost in the annals of time and can be used in other areas like season pages, individual player profiles or even external non-WP websites.
As I mentioned in the RM back almost a month ago, I think it's achievable and realistic to get this page up the standard of List of VFL/AFL players to have scored a goal with their first kick. It's well-presented and fit for purpose. While the RM discussion has been playing out over the last few weeks, I've been busy in my sandbox working on some improvements to the page, a number of which I'm ready to bring across to the mainspace now:
*  Convert tables to sortable plainrowheaders
*  Remove fixed table width – I think this can be revisited, but 80% was much too wide.
*  Remove instance count in tables – this has actually caused more problems than it has solved in the past, as 'journalists' have taken the number of instances as gospel (often not listing the figure as "known cases") and resulted in some WP:CITOGENESIS. Given we are often semi-regularly finding new instances from back in the pre-television era, the instance count is a bit of a furphy.
*  Add round number in tables – there is no good reason why it shouldn't be there.
*  Convert scores from total to goals/behinds/total – in Australian football, scores are always displayed G/B/T, and it also adds context to each instance (team accuracy, for example). Formatting for the scores has been co-opted from List of VFL/AFL premiers..
*  Convert 'details' column to 'reference' column – the old 'details' column was full of flowery cruft, subjectivity and links to non-free media. A vast majority of instances were sourced only from said YouTube videos too, rather than any printed or online articles. I've gone through and found individual references for each instance.
*  Add section for non-premiership matches – now that the scope is defined to VFL/AFL, there is a home for instances in VFL/AFL-sanctioned matches that weren't a part of the regular season or finals matches (a.k.a pre-season matches, night series matches, or official practice matches).
*  Convert miscellany section from table to prose – given these instances all differ wildly, they are best explained in prose rather than in a table. I am still searching for a primary source for the Paul Salmon instance, please let me know if you can help.
Some changes are still to come, which I am getting around to doing:
* all changes to the 'missed opportunities' table.
* individual references for the 'behind to win', 'behind to draw' and 'missed opportunities' tables.
* all player names in each table to sortname templates.
* more prose generally, including frequency of instances, frequency of clubs represented, and any other relevant trivia.
* images throughout, as the main feature image previously used related to an instance in the SANFL and is therefore no longer suitable.
Looking forward to getting this page up to where it should be. Cheers! Gibbsyspin 07:49, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page improvements, September 2023