Talk:Political consciousness

message: This new article cites no references, so I added the original research/verifiability template.  DOONHAMER | BANTER  19:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Much respect for your gnoming efforts, sir.  Without the gnomes, wikipedia would be a mess. And Doonhamer, you're a funny bloke! :) --Dylanfly 21:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Cheers and likewise Professor. The article is fleshing out nicely and looks like it will be a worthy addition to the encyclopedia.  DOONHAMER | BANTER  23:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Original research/Unverified claims

message: I like the idea of this article. In my understanding, Marx held the view that the development of productive forces is decisive for state of development of a society, while ideology plays a secondary role. For example, "The German Ideology" First Premises
4. The Essence of the Materialist Conception of History
Social Being and Social Consciousness, reads: 
The phantoms formed in the human brain are also, necessarily, sublimates of their material life-process, which is empirically verifiable and bound to material premises. Morality, religion, metaphysics, all the rest of ideology and their corresponding forms of consciousness, thus no longer retain the semblance of independence. They have no history, no development; but men, developing their material production and their material intercourse, alter, along with this their real existence, their thinking and the products of their thinking. Life is not determined by consciousness, but consciousness by life. In the first method of approach the starting-point is consciousness taken as the living individual; in the second method, which conforms to real life, it is the real living individuals themselves, and consciousness is considered solely as their consciousness. 
Thus, instead of 
:That is, conditions of inequality create ideologies which confuse people about their true aspirations, loyalties, and purposes.
from the quote we could (in a formal manner) deduce just a statement like
:Conditions of  mens real existence create ideologies which are a reflection of material production and material intercourse.
I have problems to find an actual example where Marx really claims that the ruling classes create und use ideologies as a means  to "mislead", "confuse" or "beguile" the oppressed classes.
--Schwalker 21:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your understanding of Marx; I made some edits myself earlier, trying to remove the impression that ideologies are intentionally created to mislead people. One thing though that I don't think your proposed sentence gets at is the idea that, in conditions of inequality, ideologies are not just a reflection of material conditions, but a distorted reflection - see the passage about the camera obscura just above the bit of GI you quote. VoluntarySlave 23:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing ideology 

message: Folks, head on over to consciousness and look what you find: a rather limited, neuro-psychological depiction.  Don't you think we should dis-ambiguate consciousness?  There's artificial consciousness,  Political consciousness, Black Consciousness Movement, consciousness raising, and perhaps more.  I'm concerned that this discussion of consciousness overwhelms the other common uses.  And now we've got political consciousness.  I'm new on Wikipedia and would like help proceeding with disambiguation on this topic.--Dylanfly 20:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps consciousness should be disamgibuated, I have not made up my mind at the moment. The article consciousness seems to have a chapter on philosophy in it. From a "strategical" point of view of Marxists it could appear advantageous not to leave the definition of "scientific" consciousness to neuro scientists and psychologists, but to insist on a unique concept of consciousness.--Schwalker 22:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right!  I mean, I hate the notion (so prevalent in "Western civ") that science is the Real, and other concepts are "political," "biased," or "theoretical."  I mean, to me, consciousness is political at all times.  That's as real a part of consciousness as one's cerebral cortex.  --Dylanfly 13:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consciousness Disambiguation