Talk:Death of Martin Anderson

message: Some of the online articles are disappearing already.  This is especially true of the newspaper articles, which may stay up for only a week or so.  Is there any remedy for this?Fconaway 06:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: liks are being added which are contreversial and one side. these should not be added. they need be true media from ie news sites or of facts. if this is the case lets talk and put why he was visiting the boot camp. this is fact and can be referenced..... thqank you
I removed the statement that the death was linked to "sickle cell anemia" since this is not correct; it is linked to sickle cell trait.  I also added the other disputed diagnoses. Billollib 14:36, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Circumstances

message: Well, what's Siebert's  first name? it say's Siebert was a medical examiner, but what was his first name? Stevo D 04:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm astonished that you'd even ask.  It's inappropriate to beat anyone in prison.  And your statement implies that it's societally acceptable to beat citizens - it most certainly is not.  So your statement is, quite simply, fallacious - in multiple ways.  What's with that? -Etoile 21:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: We need a reference for the statement that it has not been demonstrated, even though it's a negative.  Otherwise it's not verifiable.  Perhaps a quote from a news article with some pathologist saying that it hasn't been demonstrated.  Pfalstad 19:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I guess I could quote myself, or any of my colleagues :-). Should I just do "personal communication?"  You won't have anybody really commenting about that in the press until Dr. Adams' autopsy report is released to the public, which may never happen.  But, in the general sense, your edits are good, and it may not be worth the trouble to change it more. Billollib 15:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, has to be verifiable..  WP:V specifically mentions blogs as being unacceptable sources, too.  Pfalstad 16:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Makes sense.Billollib 18:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I will ask, however, why this applies to my paragraph, but not to any other in this section -- I note that none of the previous discussion of Dr. Siebert seemed to require such a bibliography. Billollib 19:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it wasn't controversial, and it seemed to match what I'd read elsewhere.  Your changes caught my eye because of the POV language and because I hadn't seen any of those claims in news reports.  Anyway, I added some refs and corrected some errors in the rest of the paragraph.  If there's anything else that seems unverifiable, feel free to remove it if you can't find any sources to back it up.  Pfalstad 19:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Siebert

message: : In his letter, Meadows admitted "close ties" to Bush appointed Hillsborough County State Attorney Mark Ober to oversee the case, which remains open and under his supervision.
This is a direct quote from the article. It appears that a word (probably a proper name) is missing between "to" and "Bush", to be followed by a full-stop with "Bush" being the first word in a new sentence. Can anyone fill in?
:My interpretation is that this is correct, except for punctuation: "close ties" to Bush-appointed Hillsborough County State Attorney reads fine. Is it factually correct?
:Rbraunwa 13:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Meadows admitted close ties to Tunnell, which is why he begged off. I have fixed. 65.244.99.5 20:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Many of the major figures in the Anderson investigation have been criticized by Anderson's family, black and detention advocacy groups, and the media.
Here's another quote from the article. Can anyone tell me what "black and detention advocacy groups" are? Wouldn't it be better to rephrase this? --Smithfarm 08:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Run-on sentence, "black and detention advocacy groups" 

message: Removed POV and story of a case that is not related to Martin Anderson. Billollib 14:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alleged Conspiracy 

message: This is clearly encyclopedia content. I came to this article by searching Wikipedia for Martin Anderson, and the content appeared just as I expected. I'm sure I'm not the only one looking for information on this case in Wikipedia.
--Rbraunwa 09:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unencyclopedic? 

message: I'm just stating that I'm removing the template. This seems to be very worthy to be here. Just saying that I'm removing it. --ASDFGHJKL=Greatest Person Ever+Coolest Person Ever 01:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing "Unencyclopedic" Template

message: I went to the site where there claims to be a video of his beating. The video did not load. I looked at the source of the page which appears to be: http://www.afrostyly.com/media/video/martin_anderson.wmv  However, this came up as a dead link in Wget. I believe this link should be removed. Bstone 04:33, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to video of beating is dead 

message: This statement appeared without a supporting reference: 
"Jimmy has been accused of having affairs with other deputies wives regularly."
This may be unverifiable; in any case it would seem to be irrelevant.Fconaway 07:24, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alleged coverup, etc. 

message: THe case number in the reference page is interesting. Under public records law, why don't you request it. It was written by a rookie deputy who did not know who Stanford was. Stanford was supposed to have been involved in a fight where a knife and baseball bat was being used. It is only suspected that he was suspect in this crime along with his brother. The case file indicates that he assigned it to himself and cleared the case "unfounded". This clearly and concisely indicates, if true, that he is willing to cover up information.
==2008 (UTC)</small> 
this article needs to be re-written. this is very biased and one sided. seems like there are only two people that are responsible for the. fconway and billibob. they wont let others allow other facts and  more about this article. they seem to be abusing their power. thank you  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.1.44.28 (talk) 15:30, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Look at the Bay County Case number in the reference. 

message: The reference cited in the "Controversy and criticism" section does not support the assertion: "ammonia spirits have been in wide use for over a century, a death due to the use of ammonia inhalant has never been demonstrated." --DieWeisseRose 04:12, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is silly on two counts.  First, in medicine, there is generally no such thing a list of things *not* associated with a disease.  There is no medical textbook stating that magically turning into a unicorn is *not* a symptom of strep throat.  However, it is perfectly valid to note that it has not been observed and to reference a text that shows that it is not on the list of verified symptoms.  Similarly, the reference I gave provides a list of symptoms -- of which laryngospasm is not listed.  The idea that one dare not say that people will not turn in to unicorns if they get strep throat is pretty silly, and it is just as silly to claim that you can't notice the same about laryngospasm.  Further, on the date of this "correction," Dr. Adams himself noted this on cross examination.  It is a bad criterion to state that one can use a *secondary* source (Dr. Adams testimony) as "verification" but not a *primary" source (the data that he, and I, use for that testimony).
Second, the statement about ammonia *does* contradict Dr. Adams' diagnosis.  His diagnosis *is* asphyxiation due to laryngospasm due to the use of ammonia salts.  If the proposed mechanism of asphyxiation by the guards is wrong, then the diagnosis of asphyxiation by the guards is wrong.  Unless, of course, one wants to posit a unicorn standing on Anderson's chest.  After all, nobody has said it *wasn't* there...
I'm putting it back in, and adding the admission by Adams as "verification."
Billollib 16:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not misconstruing what he wrote as his official opinion.  There's a little inside baseball here.  In contrast to what's been going on in the press, it's been Dr. Adams' and not Dr. Siebert's diagnosis that has caused consternation in the Medical Examiner community.  What you are seeing is Dr. Adams making a progressive retreat from his written opinion.  However, the original opinion as written is that the young man died of laryngospasm.  The statement at trial that revises it to claim that he thinks the man would have died even if his diagnosis was wrong is a backpeddle, and will continue through Dr. Siebert's appeal. This is in contrast to one of the other prosecution experts (who did not testify) who simply changed his diagnosis altogether.  Read the actual autopsy report. Oops forgot to sign.  Billollib 17:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference cited in the "Controversy and criticism" section does not support the assertion: "ammonia spirits have been in wide use for over a century, a death due to the use of ammonia inhalant has never been demonstrated." The reference says nothing on these points, in fact. --DieWeisseRose 13:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ahem.  Look under "Adverse Reactions."  There a list.  It's not there.  However, I'll tell you what I'll do -- I'll add an MSDS sheet.  It's not there, either.  Once again, to demand an exhaustive list of all things that are not a side effect of something is silly.  It has been in use for 150 years.  It is not a known side effect.  Figure it out.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Billollib (talk • contribs) 16:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ahem. If you want to rewrite the statement so that it is consistent with what the two references actually do say then, by all means, go ahead. In the meantime, I have removed the unverified statement and accompanying references. --DieWeisseRose 06:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK, since you don't believe the medical literature, I added a quote from one of my colleagues who does.  See the quote from Eichner.  That, even in the world of Wikipedia, constitutes "verification," even if medical science does not. Billollib 21:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Be more specific on what you want.  It is not listed in standard lists of adverse effects.  Experts state that a death due to the use of ammonia inhalant has never been demonstrated.  Dr. Adams does not dispute it.  All of these are referenced.  What more, exactly, do you want? I'm pretty tired of playing "what am I thinking" with you. Billollib  —Preceding comment was added at 04:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If anyone was "playing" then it was you and not me. Your current revision looks fine and reflects what the sources actually say. Good job. --DieWeisseRose 06:36, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ammonia--Verification Failed 

message: I think moving the comments after the trial to a new section is fine, but if you put the description of the prosecution expert testimony under the description of the trial itself, then you should not put the description of the defense expert testimony in the commentary section. Billollib 19:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is correct.  I was pretty tired when I did that!  Anyway, the evaluation of the trial doesn't belong in the account of what happened.  It should simply be a narration.  I certainly agree that the prosecution's case was too complex, and had the appearance of being contradictory.  But, that's an evaluation of the case, rather than a description of the trial.  Post mortems can go on forever.Fconaway 08:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments on Trial

message: This page was moved back without discussion. As it is clearly about Anderson's death, rather than about his life, it isn't a biography and shouldn't pretend to be one. Please discuss this prior to moving it back again. Chris Cunningham 16:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That was wierd.  You did that at the same time I was adding a reference.  I hit "save" and the page disappeared!  It scared me to death -- I thought I had deleted everything. I agree with you that this has more todo with the controversy than a true biography, though I don't particularly care what it is called. Billollib 17:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move 

message: I don't have time to dig them up, but the Tallahassee Democrat  has articles on two marches that took place in Tallahassee recently. One was on the day the verdict was announced and the other was last week (Thursday or Friday). The goals are to demand federal civil rights charged be brought in the case. CJ 18:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tallahassee Marches 

message: Per the criticism, I have enlarged the introduction. Billollib (talk) 00:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Looks good. I've added a few links to subjects which appeared pertinent to the context. Chris Cunningham (talk) 01:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  I don't have a clue how to do that. Billollib (talk) 00:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fleshed out the introduction 

message: Charlie Siebert was attacked and fired because he called this an exertional sickle cell death.  If the last part of his firing is not relevant to this article, then the first part is not.  The fact is that the criticism of Dr. Siebert and the attacks on his integrity, the vindication of his testimony in court and the acquittal of the guards, and his subsequent removal in spite of it, with the associated response from the National Association of Medical Examiners, the County Commissioners, and the Medical Examiner community are integral parts of this story.  If you want to delete his firing, then you need to tell me what evidence you have that it is not related to this case in the face of the overwhelming evidence that it is. Billollib (talk) 04:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article began as a discussion of what happened to Martin Anderson.  We are getting far afield here.Fconaway (talk) 06:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand, but in fact, this has always been an article about what happened to Mr. Anderson *and the fallout from it.*  If, in fact this article is *only* about what happened to Mr. Anderson and not about the political consequences, then 90% of the article can be deleted and this can be rewritten as a medicolegal article.  In fact, however, the correspondent who renamed the article as the "Martin Anderson Controversy" is substantively correct -- it is, and always has been, as much about the attempts of various groups to dominate the narrative about the death as of the death itself.  As such, if the beginning and middle are relevant, then the final results are important as well.  If the accusations against the guards are pertinent, then so are the results of the trial.  If the attacks on Dr. Siebert are pertinent, then so are the results of those attacks.Billollib (talk) 05:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

text: This article is hardly "one-sided."  It is, in fact, the result of multiple compromises made by multiple people with multiple points of view.  It provides the basic concepts of the controversy, provides the source of its notoriety, presents the timeline of the controversy, and notes the denoument.  It is certainly not what I would like to see were I to write it myself, but as a collaborative article, it's not bad. Billollib (talk) 01:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Siebert Firing 

message: Ford1206's assertion that the links he keeps deleting have nothing to do with the controversy is incorrect. Further, his assertion that they are "one sided" is further incorrect.  In fact, the last one, to billoblog.com, provides a position in direct contradiction to the others.  Thus, they are not one-sided, and they are not irrelevant to the article. Billollib (talk) 01:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repeated Deletions 

message: This is not a valid response to the request for citation.  Wikipedia is the place where you look to find the references, you don't just make assertions and refuse to provide citiations for them. If you cannot provide citation for the inflammatory data you insert, then don't insert it.  If it is true, then provide the citation. 
In addition, your claim that weblogs are not appropriate for the "external links" section is not supported as far as I can tell.  External links are evaluated differently than internal references on most of the entries I have seen.  In fact, looking at your own editing, I see that you don't adhere to this in your own editing.  I looked up your history and note that you added a number of pornographic web pages to your editing of the "Peaches" entry. Billollib (talk) 23:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  look up the info yourself 

message: I removed the "dragging the body around" bit from the intro because the interpretation of the video is actually part of the controversy.  The statement as written begs this issue. Billollib (talk) 20:02, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed POV from intro discussion of video

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 25 external links on Martin Anderson case. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080820090003/http://media.tbo.com/tbo/1128lee3.pdf to http://media.tbo.com/tbo/1128lee3.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071011021609/http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/100807_ctv.html to http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/100807_ctv.html
*Added  tag to http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/16115100.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927221002/http://tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=%2F20070119%2FCAPITOLNEWS%2F701190345 to http://tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=%2F20070119%2FCAPITOLNEWS%2F701190345
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070224205019/http://www.hillsboroughcounty.org/medexam/about/director.cfm to http://www.hillsboroughcounty.org/medexam/about/director.cfm
*Added  tag to http://www.miami.com/multimedia/miami/news/archive/0505bootcamp.pdf
*Added  tag to http://www.nata.org/statements/consensus/sicklecell.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080509074429/http://www.custom-kits.com/MSDS/Amm%20Inh.pdf to http://www.custom-kits.com/MSDS/Amm%20Inh.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071015111509/http://newsherald.com/headlines/article.display.php?a=3867 to http://www.newsherald.com/headlines/article.display.php?a=3867
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928060624/http://www.newsherald.com/headlines/article.display.php?a=2622 to http://www.newsherald.com/headlines/article.display.php?a=2622
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070802082320/http://www.stateattorney14.com/PressReleases/SteveonSeibertreplacement.htm to http://www.stateattorney14.com/PressReleases/SteveonSeibertreplacement.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928060554/http://www.newsherald.com/archives/article.display.php?id=63650 to http://www.newsherald.com/archives/article.display.php?id=63650
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928143203/http://media.mgnetwork.com/mbb/pdf/18jan07_tmach_medical.pdf to http://media.mgnetwork.com/mbb/pdf/18jan07_tmach_medical.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071015111520/http://talkradio101.com/news-fullstory.shtml?id=EElyplVupyoljJPNeD to http://www.talkradio101.com/news-fullstory.shtml?id=EElyplVupyoljJPNeD
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071015111459/http://newsherald.com/headlines/article.display.php?a=3048 to http://www.newsherald.com/headlines/article.display.php?a=3048
*Added  tag to http://www.newsherald.com/headlines/article.display.php?id=34
*Added  tag to http://www.newsherald.com/headlines/article.display.php?id=137
*Added  tag to http://media.mgnetwork.com/mbb/pdf/19dec07_tmach_name.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080911094058/http://tallahassee.com/assets/pdf/CD950531225.PDF to http://tallahassee.com/assets/pdf/CD950531225.PDF
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927221002/http://tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=%2F20070119%2FCAPITOLNEWS%2F701190345 to http://tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=%2F20070119%2FCAPITOLNEWS%2F701190345
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071011101409/http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/100307_openings_ctv.html to http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/100307_openings_ctv.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071009092533/http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/100407_ctv.html to http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/100407_ctv.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071011104042/http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/100507_ctv.html to http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/100507_ctv.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071015111519/http://newsherald.com/headlines/article.display.php?a=3885 to http://www.newsherald.com/headlines/article.display.php?a=3885
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071015111514/http://newsherald.com/headlines/article.display.php?a=3884 to http://www.newsherald.com/headlines/article.display.php?a=3884
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071011021609/http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/100807_ctv.html to http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/100807_ctv.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071011011832/http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/100907_ctv.html to http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/100907_ctv.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071013015043/http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/101107_ctv.html to http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/101107_ctv.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071014003430/http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/101207_verdict_ctv.html to http://www.courttv.com/trials/anderson/101207_verdict_ctv.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927090450/http://www.wjhg.com/news/headlines/6494961.html to http://www.wjhg.com/news/headlines/6494961.html
*Added  tag to http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/14071660.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928060554/http://www.newsherald.com/archives/article.display.php?id=63650 to http://www.newsherald.com/archives/article.display.php?id=63650
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:28, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018)