Talk:Vinland map

message: ...detailing the explorations of Leif Eriksson, who had discovered America in the 11th century and named it Vinland. I've deleted this as it's incorrect. See the article. Wetman 01:32, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: A myth. It isn't logical that a navigator, warrior and invasive people as the Vikings discovered lands and not return to them for 500 years and haven't a record of this in his history.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.148.15.163 (talk) 03:32, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Wetman

message: Can we pare down or move the external links? It's getting rather excessive, and polemical. I'll do it if I can get some agreement.
I don't know who made the above point, but I've just added references to most of the primary sources for information on the V.M., so I'm inclined to agree that the links to news items etc. should be trimmed. David Trochos 18:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now removed a few links to old news items, but retained links to original research. David Trochos 19:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move external links 

message: The strangest thing about this map is not Americas, but rather that it intends to show how large rivers like the Nile are merging and originating inside the deepest deep of Black Africa. That area of massive jungle was definitely not explored pre-Columbus and in fact the origin of the Nile was only found by Victorian explorers. The cold climate norsemen are unlikely to have wandered into near-equatorial Africa. 195.70.32.136 22:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vinland map with the bantu? 

message: I watched the Nova episode on PBS about the Vinland Map, and according to this documentary it seemed to me that scientists had by the early 2000s pretty much determined to the satisfaction of most objective observers that the map was indeed a forgery (20th-century ink on medieval or renaissance-era "paper").  However, this Wikipedia article currently presents the subject as though the matter is still largely up in the air.  Is it, or has the matter been laid to rest?  If the latter, I think the article should make a more decisive statement in support of "forgery".  --Skb8721 16:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: so it should; I'd be grateful if you could cite more specific sources reporting this. dab (𒁳) 14:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

text: We are not really able to go on the opinions of amateurs.  65.60.137.13 (talk) 14:00, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

text: With an almost correct (by modern standards) outline of Greenland, but very distorted coast lines of Europe? --62.143.121.135 19:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forgery or Not 

message: I don't see anywhere mention of the fairly striking possibility that the map is drawn after a globe. To check this for yourself grab a globe with a diameter of about 12-18 inches, set it a couple feet from your face and turn it so you can just see Australia and the northeastern most tip of Canada. Note now how Africa appears flattened on this globe orientation just as in the vinland map. This also accounts for the curved boundaries and odd relative orientations of Europe and Asia. Paperflight 16:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Site "dead", see a photo here http://vinland-map.brandeis.edu/explore/historical/index.php (click on photo to enlarge it). 01 April 2012.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.203.39 (talk) 14:59, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  13th Century Original... 

message: I have a problem here, of the proving-a-negative type. If you look at books about the Norse exploration of the North Atlantic, published since the 1970s, you will find that most of them do the same as the near-definitive Smithsonian volume "Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga": if they mention the Vinland map at all, it is only to comment on the likelihood that it is a fake. For example, the standard English version of the Vinland Sagas, by Magnus Magnusson and Hermann Pálsson () ignores the Vinland Map, and Magnusson deals with it only in a book titled "Fakers, Forgers & Phoneys: Famous Scams and Scamps" (). Thus when I insist on reverting to the claim that "most scholars believe the Vinland Map to be a fake" I am doing so not on the basis that there is a published source making that claim (although Seaver's book, which includes 80 pages of notes and bibliography, effectively does so in terms of scholars who have actually studied aspects of the map- not just chemists, but specialists across a wide range of disciplines) but on the basis that scholars for whom it ought to be a relevant resource almost unanimously choose to ignore it. David Trochos (talk) 23:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: First, let me say that my knowledge of this subject is somewhat secondhandit comes through an e-mail friend of mine, who's a scientist at Brookhaven and has been involved in the testing of the map.  To some extent, I rely on his information, and it's his opinion that the map is real.  I don't personally have an opinion about it one way or the other, but if the validity of the map is a matter of contentionand it isthat as a point of factuality, either the lede should say nothing that tends to weight the issue one way or the other, or else the statement should be made in as neutral a way as possible.  To say that "some" scholars believe... is obviously true, it adds no weight to the statement one way or the other (OK, it actually adds a *little* bit of weight just but its being there in the lede, but not a lot).  To say "many" or "most" is much more contentiousthat's more a factual matter than a descriptive one.For "some" to be true, there just have to be a number of scholars who fit the description, and your refs would be appropriate in establishing that, but to say "many", now you're qualifying the number as being significant, and you do that either by posting *many* refs, or by quoting someone who's done a survey and has evidence to support the claim.  To say "most" is even harder to provenow you have to have a count, and show the there's a majority who fit the description.So, either the statement needs to be removed, or made neutral in another way, or revert back to "some". If you want to say "many" or "most", you need a citation to back it up. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 01:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the statement entirely, leaving the bald statement of fact: the autheticity of the map is not proven one way or the other.  If you want to reinsert a statement describing the nature of the scholarly debate, do so only with a citation please. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 01:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've rewritten it to try to make it clear that the Norse history community places no confidence at all in the Vinland Map (sorry, but Jim Enterline doesn't count as a Norse historian any more than George Painter or Thomas Marston did). Neutrality is a fine concept, but it must not be allowed to mislead. For the record, the Brookhaven National Laboratory tests on the Vinland Map proved nothing that was actually in doubt- all they did was carbon-date the parchment, which earlier studies had suggested was probably some of the missing material from the accompanying "Speculum Historiale" volume. Unsurprisingly, it came up at exactly the right date. What Brookhaven miserably failed to do was analyse the mysterious chemical soaked into the parchment, which skewed their first results; the presence of this goop had been detected back in 1967, but Brookhaven was the first lab which had been allowed to make a large-scale destructive test that would give the opportunity to analyse the mystery substance. They didn't bother- indeed they showed no signs of being aware of the 1967 study, the 1968 report of which is on file at Yale along with all the others. David Trochos (talk) 09:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've undone your changes to the lede, which are blatantly POV.  If you want to make that argument, do so in the body of the piece, not in the lede. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 16:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I've tried a revised version in the leader, because what you are calling POV is, as Seaver demonstrates, actually the POV of most academics and scientists who have attempted to assess the authenticity of the Vinland Map since 1965. Please change it manually, don't just revert, because both the refs. are also used elsewhere in the article. David Trochos (talk) 19:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What you have now seems fine to me.  Thanks for putting in the effort, I appreciate it. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 19:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Cheers- it's all good healthy exercise! David Trochos (talk) 23:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Since George Painter died, Jim Enterline may well be the only remaining "scholarly advocate" for authenticity- the main supporters of authenticity over the past quarter-century have been scientists arguing (with decreasing success, as the article shows) that the chemical evidence against the map is weak. New research along these lines may be submitted for publication later this year- or may not, if the new analysis doesn't support authenticity; the Vinland Map is an excellent Schrödinger's MacGuffin. David Trochos (talk) 19:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Most" or "some" scholars believe the Map to be a fake?

message: I'm going to try and find a form of words to explain how remarkably handy the Skalholt Map was for the finding of l'Anse aux Meadows- on that map, the word "Winlandiae" occurs at the tip of a long north-trending promontory on the west coast of the American continent, that tip being at the same latitude as the south coast of Ireland. The Ingstads used the map to help them narrow the search area, and found their Norse settlement at the tip of a long north-trending promontory (etc.) David Trochos (talk) 23:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Skalholt map and l'Anse aux Meadows

message: I'm also going to reword the sentence about the stray black particle containing chromite, but I'm going to have to explain why here, rather than in the references. I have very unofficially been given the following quotation from Table 2 of the private report sent by the McCrone labs to Yale at the end of 1973, which describes each particle they analysed; particle 9-C-2 (the chromite-rich oddity) is a "Loose black particle (maybe artifact)". The public reports at the time were just short summaries, concentrating on the anatase, and it was not until challenged by Cahill's 1987 report that McCrone dug out his old notes to compile a fully detailed paper, in which he featured 9-C-2 prominently because it was the only pure black particle, failing to notice the note in his old Table 2. The second edition of Yale's official book gave Cahill the opportunity to reply to this, and featured the heavy hint about stray particles- but the Cahill team never specifically explained what lay behind the hint. Science can be a cruel business. David Trochos (talk) 23:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good.  That section was previously worded awkwardly, although I did like the line reference to "a subtle ploy."  ClovisPt (talk) 23:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The stray black particle

message: :It is a description of the history and manners of the Mongols that appears to be an early version of the memoir of Giovanni da Pian del Carpine, an Italian Franciscan friar who in 1245 made a trip to the supreme khan at Karakoram.
I changed that last word in the article from "Karakoram", a mountain range, to "Karakorum", the ancient capital.  I am unfamiliar with the subject and am not certain it's correct, but it seems likely.  Tempshill (talk) 19:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karakoram or Karakorum? 

message: Re the "chromium" particle found "sticking loosely to the surface of the ink line": is it a "20th century" particle? is it the same composition as any of the "many other particles" found in the fold? 26 March 2008.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.162.104 (talk) 18:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A couple of the 30 or so particles from the fold removed for analysis in 1985 contained significant quantities of chromium and iron, like the 1974 stray. The analyst pondered whether they might include chromite- which in turn led to a theory about the original composition of the Vinland Map ink, published in the Smithsonian book "Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga" (2000). However it has been pointed out that chromite (FeO·Cr2O3) contains two Cr atoms for every one Fe atom- but these stray particles (in both the 1974 and 1985 analyses) contained significantly more Fe than Cr. David Trochos (talk) 20:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Particles

message: I think it is absurd that there is an argument over this obvious forgery. If this manuscript had not been "discovered" and published by a rich Yale alumnus it would have been ignored from the beginning. Anyone with even passing familiarity with real 14th-century maps can attest this as an obvious forgery. For one thing it is in a Mercator projection (a 16th-century invention). The draftsmanship is also nothing like any real 14th-century map. For example, if you compare it to the Gough map or the Hereford map the forgery is obvious. Its embarrassing that there is a "controversy". John Chamberlain (talk) 23:07, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: To be fair, it isn't on a Mercator projection (or Greenland would be much bigger, for a start), and the Gough and Hereford maps aren't good comparisons, because this is supposed to be just an illustration for a rather hastily-copied volume of the Speculum Historiale. But nonetheless, I agree with your last sentence! David Trochos (talk) 19:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mercator Projection 

message: Edits by Facts107 on 10 Mar 2009 have highlighted the possibility that Greenland could have been circumnavigated "at least once" during the Medieval Warm Period. Technically speaking, this is absolutely correct in the sense that it's impossible to disprove- but such medieval evidence as exists makes it quite clear that if there was a circumnavigation (with a skilled navigator/surveyor aboard), no geographer EXCEPT the possible medieval author of the Vinland Map was told of it. The introduction of such arguments is a perennial problem of articles about possible fake artifacts, so I'm not sure how we should treat this particular example. David Trochos (talk) 18:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed it as OR - without a reliable source to cite, it's just speculation. If any editor wants to replace it with a reference to a reliable source, feel free, but otherwise, please don't. dougweller (talk) 19:26, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Circumnavigating Greenland 

message: This article contains the assertion that the dealer of the Vinland map, Larry Witten, is quoted in the Skelton book to the effect that he had lied regarding the map's provenance. I have not read the Skelton book but I would like to see that statement footnoted to the text on here, if in fact Witten made such statements, of which I am unaware. MarmadukePercy (talk) 04:39, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. An amusing footnote- close reading of Skelton et al. makes it apparent that even the confession contains a major lie! David Trochos (talk) 08:21, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As I don't have the Skelton book to hand, and it might be some time before I can put my hands on a copy, would you mind filling me in on how Witten misrepresented the map's provenance? Thanks. MarmadukePercy (talk) 22:32, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ansewered on Marmaduke's talk pageArchived here. David Trochos (talk) 09:41, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dealer's admission? 

message: The purpose of our Vinland Map research has been and is to provide scientific data and fact which may help to clarify the authenticity of the card. We do not have any prejudiced attitude or belief in relation to the question of authenticity. Our interest as professionals is solely to help determine the authenticity of the based on scientific facts.
In our paper (Larsen, R. and Sommer D.V.P.: Facts and Myths about the Vinland Map and its Context, Zeitschrift für Kunsttechnologie und Konservierung vol. 2, 2009. Pp. 196-205.) which is written in English and is accessible trough most libraries, we conclude and recommends the following: 
Based on our experiments and studies we can conclude that the worm holes in the Vinland Map are most likely to be of natural origin formed after the writing and drawing. In relation to earlier statements that the wormholes pattern of the Vinland Map may be linked to the Yale Speculum Historiale, in front of which it may have been placed, we add that we are able find a similar pattern on a photo of the bookbinding board of the book.
Based on our experiments with hypo chlorite bleaching we can conclude that this treatment may have been used on the Vinland Map and that it produces similar damages to the ink as observed on the Vinland Map. The damage is characterized by a severe loss of the overlying black ink pigment leaving fragments of this within the boarder lines of the underlying lighter yellow to brownish line of ink pigments and binding media fixed in the parchment surface. This characteristic damage is produced on both the carbon ink and the iron gall inks used in the experiment. This shows that the characteristics of ink damages cannot be used as a criterion for identification of the ink type as we did earlier. However, the ink damage is typical and very similar to those that we have observed on parchment manuscripts originating from the 4th century to 18th century. Together with the fact, that it is impossible to produce ink lines in two steps with the same precision of match of overlying ink fragments with the underlying ink line, this finally proofs that the ink of the Vinland Map has been applied in one step and that its characteristic damage is due to a drastic water based treatment.
Moreover, based on our experience with the dynamic of transport of components like calcite onto the surface of parchment, especially in connection with humid treatment, we suggest that the presence of anatase and calcite-anatase detected in the ink lines of the Vinland Map most possible are due to accumulation and fixation of these components caused by the wet treatment of Vinland Map. The sources of the components may very well be the river water and lime bath use in the parchment production which in several regions of Switzerland contains titanium dioxide components as well as heavy metals also found in the ink of Vinland Map. Additional sources of anatase may be its natural occurrence in the ink and/or dust from anatase containing ink drying sand. In this connection, it should be taken into consideration the chemical processes and transformations taking place in the parchment over time. These will be accelerated by wet treatment of the parchment. This is also the case with the deterioration of the parchment which may be transformed into gelatine as we have observed on the surface of Vinland Map in an earlier study. This deterioration process starts on the surface of the parchment and is accelerated by acid from the ink and not least when it is exposed to a bleaching treatment. This is undoubtedly the reason why the Vinland Map ink is embedded in gelatine.
With respect to the earlier studies of the watermarks in Speculum Historiale and Tartar Relation we have found a further matching mark in Piccards catalogue with the motif of the head of an ox with bespectacled eyes. We can conclude that the watermarks with high probability date the Speculum Historiale and Tartar Relation papers to 1437-1441 and the most possible place of production to the Oberhein region (in Switzerland or close to Switzerland).
Finally our preliminary palaeographic study of the texts of Vinland Map and the Tartar Relation shows a convincing similarity between the style of the letters and how these are combined in the individual words supporting the possible link between these.
Based on the above results we recommend the following further experiments and studies are carried out:
:1. Experiments studying how components like anatase and calcite are taken up, transported and reacts in the parchment and ink during parchment production, application of ink, drying sand and successive wet treatments. These should include components from Swiss sources.
:2. Advanced professional palaeographic studies based on the available high quality digital images of Vinland Map and Tartar Relation.
:3. Performance of a comparative study of the worm holes in the Vinland Map, Speculum Historiale and Tartar Relation and their match. This should be photographic recorded and published.
:4. PIXE analysis of the Vinland Map ink and parchment using the new type of non sampling equipment developed in recent EC research projects for the study of ink on historical paper documents.
:5. Performance of microanalysis of trace elements in the inks, parchments and papers of Speculum Historiale, Tartar Relation and the Vinland Map which could contribute to the identification of their geographical origin.
More recent scientific research on the ink can be found in the following two papers:
Olin, J. S. (2012) Evidence that the Vinland Map was drawn using an iron gall ink: The continuing need for further research, Advances in Chemical Engineering and Science, 2012, 2, 514-518
Olin, J. S. (2013) The Vinland Map: Transmission electron micrograph of the ink, International Journal of Advances in Chemistry (IJAC) Vol.1, No.1, November 2013
In the latter paper Olin concludes: "Evidence that the Map is a modern forgery based on the shape of the antase particles in the ink of the Map is shown in this paper as less clear cut than has been formerly proposed. It has been proposed that a modern forger of the Vinland Map obtained parchment of the correct date for the Council of Basle, but no evidence has been presented to confirm that."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.161.59.196 (talk) 20:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The last sentence of the above is wrong in two ways. First, the parchment of the Map is of the correct date for the Council of Basle. Second, as the John Paul Floyd discoveries demonstrated, the Map was made by a modern(ish) forger. All the rest is irrelevant. David Trochos (talk) 15:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: ¨¨¨¨Comments by René Larsen¨¨¨¨

message: See  (Kirsten Seaver posted this to a list). Dougweller (talk) 19:10, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to Larsen from Kenneth Towe 

message: There have been a couple of editors who seem intent on having the text of the intro declare who is currently "winning" the debate about the map's authenticity.  Their edit summaries betray their agendas, by declaring how important it is to rule upon this question.  It is not the role of Wikipedia articles to ensure that people reach the "correct" conclusion.  I have no dog in this particular hunt (having come to the article only out of curiosity), and propose that rather than introducing time-sensitive descriptions such as "the most recent" (discouraged by MOS) we simply give dates.  It is NPOV, and it is responsible, sober encyclopedia writing that will stand the test of time. - Jason A. Quest (talk) 19:36, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I can see, MOS only discourages "recently", not "most recent", which is expressing a different concept. If you look further up this page, at the section "Most" or "some" scholars believe the Map to be a fake?, you'll see that the "most recent" wording was specifically developed to comply with NPOV. The present wording is better than nothing, albeit grammatically clumsy, but in the academic world where the Vinland Map might actually matter, the controversy was pretty much over by 1966 (because, as the article attempts to illustrate, ink chemistry is by no means the only problem with the Map) and I would suggest that it is dishonest to give Wikipedia readers the impression even that a significant minority of scholars take it seriously as an example of medieval cartography. David Trochos (talk) 00:38, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Here you and I part company, I'm afraid. As a rank amateur on cartography and medieval manuscripts, I do believe that the controversy was not over by 1966 -- otherwise, why would it have simmered for this long? Clearly, there are experts on either side of this debate, and as the previous user suggested -- and as rational journalistic practice dictates -- the role of wikipedia is not picking a side, but illustrating the complexities and nuances. Ironically, illustrating those complexities, instead of attempting to settle the matter, makes not only for good journalism, but for a better narrative. The controversy lives on for a reason, as the most recent conference suggests, to me anyway. That's my two cents on the matter as a non-expert of longstanding. MarmadukePercy (talk) 00:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Marmaduke, the problem is that many of the complexities cannot be illustrated in Wikipedia, because the surviving evidence is only circumstantial (echoed in the present situation, where there appears, anecdotally, to be a sharp divergence between the impression given by the Reuters report and the impression gained by those who actually attended the cartographic conference). Note that my actual statement was not "the controversy was pretty much over by 1966" but "in the academic world where the Vinland Map might actually matter, the controversy was pretty much over by 1966" (although I guess it could be said that there remained an inverse relationship between scholarly belief in the Vinland Map and familiarity with historical scholarship in Scandinavian languages). The circumstantial evidence indicates that for the Vinland Map to be officially declared a fake at any time before 1971 would have been very inconvenient for Paul Mellon, due to the statute of limitations on tax evasion, and that action (or rather inaction) was taken accordingly. Regarding the continuation of the debate over four decades more- as the article attempts to indicate, most of it is based on overenthusiastic mistakes by scientists, and an analysis of the Vinland Map saga's lessons for scientific methodology may prove to be the most lasting benefit of the whole mess. David Trochos (talk) 07:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm unclear about what you mean about the 'statute of limitations on tax evasion.' Are you suggesting that Mellon (or Witten) were trying to perpetrate a tax fraud? I suppose I see the whole Vinland map saga, if in fact the map is not genuine, as more of a fumbling, than an attempt at outright fraud. That's just my take on it as a largely ignorant observer. Also, having been convinced at one point that the map was almost certainly a fake, nowadays I guess I'm wondering whether it is genuine or not, probably as a result of the publication of results like those at the recent conference. Again, all this comes from someone with little or no expertise in the matter. MarmadukePercy (talk) 20:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Fumbling? In its early stages (pre-1974), absolutely not. A chain of about half-a-dozen people understood exactly what they needed to do to get the maximum benefit from a remarkable map with no provenance, and each helped the next in the chain to achieve his personal goal. The circumstantial evidence indicates that Mellon's key goal was, as was fashionable among the wealthy even then, to make a profit from taxpayers by arranging for the Map to increase greatly in value between the time he bought it and the time he donated it. Not fraud- indeed no fraud case could ever have been proved against any US citizen involved- just a diffferent brand of ethics. David Trochos (talk) 21:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't speak to Witten's motives, but knowing a bit about Paul Mellon's role at The National Gallery (where the employees referred to him simply as 'PM'), I believe you may misunderstand his motives a bit. Certainly he wouldn't have done anything counterproductive to his own wealth; on the other hand, given the enormous donations made by the man to many institutions, including the National Gallery, the Yale Center for British Art, Yale University and many others, I don't think that 'tax evasion' was at the top of Mellon's list of priorities. MarmadukePercy (talk) 21:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Try thinking of it as a game (also very applicable to Andrew Mellon's establishment of the National Gallery). By the way, this conversation is getting a bit off-topic for an article talk page! David Trochos (talk) 22:40, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, but I don't need suggestions on how to look at it. I know something about Mellon. As for this discussion, I don't think it's off-topic: it goes to what I view as an attempt to turn a wikipedia article into a petri dish for conspiracy theories. I suspect most people, barring a grand jury's indictment, see events surrounding the map as the stumbling of folks without the scientific tools we enjoy today. I go back to my previous point: I agree with the prior editor that this is an encyclopedia entry. Barring disclosure of clear intent to defraud, or unequivocal proof that the map is fake, I believe this article should rise above character assassination -- especially of the dead, who everyone knows 'can't sue' -- and should concentrate instead on delineating the issues at hand. MarmadukePercy (talk) 01:02, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, your phrase "without the scientific tools we enjoy today" goes to the heart of the problem, and of the role of Paul Mellon (or, let's say, Mellon's advisers). Until 1967, the Vinland Map was not investigated by any scientists at all. Even specialists in Norse history, and specialists in medieval writing, were effectively kept out of the research which produced the Skelton book. David Trochos (talk) 08:55, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attempts to referee the debate 

message: Wikipedia is supposed to be based on Reliable Sources, preferably peer-reviewed or at least published by reputable academic publishers. Can anybody name one source supporting the authenticity of the Vinland Map which meets those criteria- and has also not been discredited by later research of equal academic standing? David Trochos (talk) 19:41, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Article now revised. Claims that the Vinland Map may be authentic should be made only if you have reliable evidence which refutes the evidence mentioned in the article. David Trochos (talk) 06:38, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course you can get more reliable sources than Reuters, eg a peer-reviewed academic journal. Reuters is a reliable source (generally) for events, but not to claim that something is real,imaginary, etc. Dougweller (talk) 07:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Also- who's ignoring it? That Reuters piece is referenced three times in the article, which explains very clearly that peer-reviewed publication of Dr Larsen's work is quite eagerly awaited, given the controversial nature of some of his statements to the press. David Trochos (talk) 17:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  A worrying thought 

message: I've changed wording on a reference to the Greenland settlement, as it seemed grudging in conceeding that there were Viking settlements in Greenland. In fact about 160 have been excavated - there is no possible doubt on the Vikings in Greenland, nor has there ever been. Graemedavis (talk) 23:22, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Parks Canada seem less convinced about the longevity of the settlement- and if it is linked at all with the settlement described in the sagas, it seems likely that the Norse Vinlanders were their own worst enemies. Your Greenland alteration was a very good idea though- that was a section I didn't bother to revise, but in retrospect I agree that the old wording was poor. David Trochos (talk) 17:30, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that L'Anse aux Meadows cannot be equated with the settlement described in the Vinland Sagas - rather Newfoundland corresponds with the Sagas' Markland. But I don't see how L'Anse aux Meadows can be called unsuccessful or even short lived. The model of Iceland and Greenland indicates that the buildings had a natural life of 20-30 years, after which they would be abandoned in an orderly manner - exactly what happened at L'Anse aux Meadows. As an individual settlement this appears to have been a success and to have had its full, natural life. Perhaps the implied point is that we have not yet found a series of settlements in Newfoundland covering a longer date span. Probably we will - this summer's Viking settlement find on Baffin Island demonstrates there is more out there to be found, and archaeological work to date in Newfoundland is very limited. At the moment "admittedly", "unsuccesful" and "short-lived" implies assumptions about Viking settlement which cannot be extrapolated from L'Anse aux Meadows. Graemedavis (talk) 23:38, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find published sources which demonstrate authoritatively that L'Anse aux Meadows (very likely but not absolutely certain to be Leifsbuðir) was not short-lived, or at least that it was just the first of a succession of sites in the same general area, then by all means change both this article and L'Anse aux Meadows, using them as references. As far as I am aware, however, the finding of what appears to be a single Norse shelter on Baffin Island does not alter the current accepted position, that Norse settlement on Newfoundland was abandoned after a short time. David Trochos (talk) 12:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You do appear to have missed Graemedavis' point, which is that you can't claim it IS short lived either as it fits within the patterns of longer term settlements too. So the article shouldn't be expressing completely certainty in either direction. Mathmo Talk 00:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I didn't miss Graeme's point. Remember that Wikipedia has to use reliable sources, and currently the most reliable sources state that L'Anse aux Meadows (which was not simply a farming settlement, but a port) was not occupied for long, and no evidence of other Norse settlements has been found in the area. David Trochos (talk) 12:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The query is as much about the tone of the language used as about the facts they are describing, for the tone implies a view. That L'Anse aux Meadows was occupied for 20-30 years reflects the facts as we understand them. Whether this is "short-lived" or "long-lived" is an interpretation (and both views can be found in published sources), and anyway surely a discussion for the L'Anse aux Meadows article and not for here. The suggestion that L'Anse aux Meadows failed as a settlement is in conflict with archaeolgical agreement that there was an orderly evacuation of the site (and that it endured for the duration of the life of its structures is a success). I suggest a more encyclopaedic phrasing would be that L'Anse aux Meadows was inhabited from X to X (and no more said). But for a focus on the Vinland Map it may be worthwhile to widen the parameters of Viking settlement in North America to take into account the new settlement find on Baffin Island, and other Viking finds on Baffin and Ellesmere. These archaeological finds certainly demonstrate Viking knowledge of the area of America which happens to be shown on the Vinland Map. Indeed if we read the squiggles as Hudson Strait and Bay and the St Lawrence River then the map is showing knowledge of areas which the archaeological record shows Vikings indeed knew about. Graemedavis (talk) 13:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, all that is needed in an article abut the Vinland Map (which only ill-informed opinion does not recognise as a 20th century fake) is a statement confirming that Norse explorers really did visit North America. Archaeology confirms the saga narrative indicating that the Norse base in Vinland was abandoned (not conquered, not sacked, just abandoned) after a short period of time- your 20 years is an absolute maximum, the paucity of rubbish found suggesting that 10 years would be closer to the truth. David Trochos (talk) 21:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Only ill-informed opinion does not recognize as a 20th century fake." I don't believe you're in a position to say this, unless you are one of the experts who examined the map. If so, please feel free to stand up and identify yourself. To me (a non-expert), the fact that The New York Times science section still carries stories about the debate, quoting both sides, without arriving at the conclusion that it's bogus bespeaks one thing: the debate still rages. I don't think it's our business here to deem it a fake until there is definitive proof. Regards, MarmadukePercy (talk) 21:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If by "experts who examined the map" you mean people like the late Walter McCrone, or the more recent Raman spectroscopy researchers, then no, clearly I'm not. I have, however, bothered to study rather more of the key texts and expert analyses than most people. The New York Times is not a peer-reviewed academic journal.  Scientific American has managed to publish significantly misleading information about the Map (and both have been guilty of basing articles on  research which, on close examination, turned out to be of very dubious value). David Trochos (talk) 06:21, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: L'Anse aux Meadows does not in any simple sense confirm the Saga stories. The Sagas give details of six voyages shortly after 1000AD to Vinland, which wherever it may be has a much better climate than Newfoundland, and they describe both exploration and efforts to set up a small settlement there. By contrast L'Anse aux Meadows may be thought of as the Viking equivalent of a motorway service station, a place that lots of ships - far, far more than the six in the Sagas - passed through. There is nothing like L'Anse aux Meadows in the Sagas; Newfoundland isn't Vinland. While archaeology and history both agree that the Vikings reached the American continent the story they tell is markedly different and not easily reconciled. That said I tend to agree that all we need in this article is a statement that archaeology and the Sagas confirm Viking presence in North America in the early eleventh century. What I'm less happy about in the context of this article is value judgements about what the orderly evacuation of L'Anse aux Meadows means. All Viking buildings of the construction of L'Anse aux Meadows were evacuated after a generation as otherwise they fell down. Typically either a new building was erected next door or the settlement moved - the latter most common in areas of scant natural resources where a generation of settlement had depleted them. Whether the evacuation of L'Anse aux Meadows meant an end to settlement in the area or simply a shift to a new site is an open question. I do think this summer's finds on Baffin Island are relevant to the Vinland Map. While we all struggle for certainty in interpreting the squiggles on the map it does appear to show the east coast of Baffin Island and a Viking settlement there (however small) is relevant. A date for the Baffin Island finds would help too (I don't think there's an official publication yet, just press rumours). Issues of the validity of the Vinland Map shouldn't contaminate an assessment of Viking presence in North America (and in the context of this article probably the less said on this topic the better). Whether the map is genuine or fake actually has quite a small influence on our view of Viking presence in N America. Graemedavis (talk) 13:05, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you may be misunderstanding why L'Anse Aux Meadows in mentioned in this article. It's not there to validate the Vinland Map (which marks no settlements in Vinland), but rather to emphasise that the inauthenticity of the Vinland Map does not in any way invalidate the reality of Vinland, and the Norse explorations. At the same time, there is a school of thought which goes far beyond the reliable evidence when discussing the extent of Norse involvement with America, and it's important not to encourage that in an encyclopedia. David Trochos (talk) 19:13, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  The toneof this article strikes me as wrong pretty much throughout. For the purposes of this article the inauthnticity of the Vinland Map has not been established. There are well-informed views that consider the map genuine. There is an insurance company that is sufficiently persuaded by the credentials of academics who say it is genuine to agree a multi-million dollar valuation. Throughout this Wikipedia article condemns the map and then presents the evidence for and against through the filter of certainty that it is a fake. Rather this article should consider the arguments both ways on their merits, and reach a conclusion - which has to include a degree of hedging. The nearest we will get to an objective view of the status of the map is provided by the insurance valuation. My own (published) view is that the map is probably a fake, but spending time looking at the arguments for and against does not produce certainty. Graemedavis (talk) 23:44, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In reality, this article does "consider the arguments both ways on their merits"- as noted above in "A Worrying Thought", there is no reliable evidence for authenticity left. Back in 1996 when that insurance valuation was reported (incidentally, there is no evidence that it actually formed the basis of an insurance policy; the Yale Beinecke Library is not liable to pay anybody compensation if the Vinland Map is destroyed) the PIXE evidence, apparently showing that the damning anatase evidence was wrong, was considered reliable. However, re-testing by Walter McCrone with new samples, re-analysis at several of the same points studied by PIXE using Raman spectroscopy, and, most recently, detailed comparative study of the PIXE report itself, have shown that the PIXE evidence, the pillar on which the case for authenticity had stood since 1985, is fatally flawed. Rene Larsen may publish details of the claims he made in Copenhagen this summer, and they may provide new evidence for authenticity, as they work from the assumption that the anatase is present, but not necessarily a manufactured product. Unfortunately, the information we already have from his conference presentation and interviews suggests that, not being a mineralogist, he has simply misunderstood the differences between natural and manufactured anatase. David Trochos (talk) 07:20, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor Change 

message: I've got the impression that in the past history of the editing of this article (from reading over the talk page) there was a suitable balance between those who believed the map to be fake (User:David Trochos)and those who believe the evidence shows it is genuine. But in recent times (this year?) I believe the balance of editing has swung way in favor of those who believe it to be a fake. The lead sentence is a blatant example of this, called it an "imitation" (i.e. fake). Anybody who reads this article (either just superficially the first paragraph, or all the way through to the end) will be left with the false impression that this was an open and shut case in which the map was found to be a forgery. Mathmo Talk 01:10, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But that's what the "worrying thought" above was about. Until the publication of Dr Larsen's paper, or some other academic research, there is no firm evidence left for authenticity- it's all been shown to be mistaken, as you would find if you followed up all the references. David Trochos (talk) 17:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: here is the quickest and shortest summary I can make: assumption of innocence is the basis of the english legal system, and I feel the same here. Mathmo Talk 22:55, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think what the previous user is saying is that there's no solid proof either way right now. The map isn't proven to be a fake, or at least hasn't been deemed so by its owner, and it hasn't been deemed legitimate either, the way I understand it. I do think the piece should reflect that, so I agree. MarmadukePercy (talk) 00:14, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Continuing the comparison with the legal system- if the matter came to court, the evidence presently available would be sufficient to prove "beyond reasonable doubt" that the Vinland Map is a fake. Larsen's research, when it becomes available, might be grounds for an appeal, but until then, unless you can find published evidence for authenticity which has not been shown to be mistaken, then that verdict (accepted by experts on Norse America for over 40 years) must stand. David Trochos (talk) 07:55, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: To extend the analogy to the legal system, and to encyclopedias, you're neither judge nor jury. You're simply the recorder. Wikipedia isn't in the business of rendering a final judgment. It's in the business of recording the facts as we see them – which usually fall into some shade of grey. Which is what this piece should reflect. MarmadukePercy (talk) 08:08, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Although you seem anxious to deem this instrument a fake, The New York Times calls it "the world's most contested piece of parchment."  That's good enough for me. This piece should reflect the fact that there is no 'verdict (accepted by experts on Norse America).' if there were, I doubt The Times would call it 'contested.' This battle has raged since the map was discovered.  Wikipedia owes it to its readers to present both sides – not to declare a winner, which you seem anxious to do. Regards, MarmadukePercy (talk) 08:15, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I repeat, if anybody can find published evidence for authenticity which has not been shown to be mistaken (or a lie by Laurence Witten, whose 1958-9 report on the Map turns out to be the origin of a surprising amount of information in the Skelton book) then obviously it should be included, and the tone of the article changed accordingly. Meanwhile, there may not be a verdict accepted by journalists, but see my comment on Magnus Magnusson up near the top of this page: as a document of Norse exploration in America the Vinland Map hit the rocks almost as soon as it was launched. David Trochos (talk) 17:29, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: While I understand your point about scholars choosing to ignore the Vinland map as a resource, that's not quite the same thing as declaring it a fake. Journalists aren't in the business of making a determination either way: they're simply charged with trying to record both sides. The Times has pointed up comments both for the map's authenticity and for its possible fraudulence. I guess what I'd like to see, if this piece is going to say the map is phony – or at least lean that way – is a quote from an acknowledged scholar in the field claiming the map is not genuine. Not just ignoring it, but actually declaring it bogus. Regards, MarmadukePercy (talk) 18:45, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: OK- the logical choice would be Magnusson, I suppose, as he was co-author of one of the most respected translations of the Vinland Sagas (years before the anatase discovery), and also later wrote about the Vinland Map specifically as a forgery. David Trochos (talk) 21:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  An even more worrying thought...  (to paraphrase a section above) 

message: I don't do this very often, but I think it's worth explaining my reasons for not restoring some material from Thomas A. Cahill's recent edits:
The first basic problem is that under Wikipedia's policy on reliable sources, the current view on the 1985 PIXE tests of the map (published in 1987) now rests with the paper by Towe et al. (2008) which added further evidence, based on the work of later PIXE analysts, to show that the 1985 tests were mistaken in their "headline" claim that the Vinland Map ink contains only 0.0062% titanium. The reference by Thomas A. Cahill to elemental standards and quality assurance is irrelevant, because the evidence shows that somehow, perhaps due to a simple decimal point error, the figures are consistently wrong.
Although the figures in the 1987 report are internally consistent, I have modified Thomas's claims about the concentrations of zinc and potassium in the ink, because, as I noted, zinc is only more concentrated in the inked samples than in adjacent bare parchment in a minority of cases; the potassium concentration in a transect across a line is "much higher" only because elements such as potassium are present in relatively high concentrations throughout the map, mostly in the bare parchment- whereas the titanium concentration was below the minimum detectable limit for the apparatus in the vast majority of bare parchment samples. Unfortunately, the 1987 report did not include potassium figures for the 33 paired samples which form the core of the analysis.
The 2008 paper by Towe et al. did not contest the data of the 2008 paper by Garmon Harbottle, but his interpretation of the data, which, as noted in the article, was based on misunderstandings.
The 1995 edition of the Yale book by Skelton et al. did not seriously address the controversy, making little reference to the scores of articles in academic journals across various disciplines which had exposed weaknesses in the case for authenticity (a bibliography of articles up to about 1970 appears in the Proceedings of the Vinland Map Conference, 1971). The story of how the 1974 analyst Walter McCrone, and Smithsonian expert Kenneth Towe, only discovered the existence of the 1995 book after they were invited to the launch (which was promoted as a "conference") has been told in more than one publication. David Trochos (talk) 23:18, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cahill edits 

message: I followed this story closely about ten years ago, even going to the extent of exchanging a few emails with Walter McCrone.  He seemed like a genuinely nice guy and he very kindly sent me a copy of a report on his research on the map.
I left this story at a time before any of the Cahill results had been refuted.  I wrote Cahill a note suggesting that he and McCrone should work together to try to understand the discrepancy.  He also was very kind to reply to me, but my sense of it was that he thought he had done all he could and that his results were correct.
I suppose that McCrone died before the information came out that refuted Cahill's results.  That's too bad, I would like to have seen him live to see his results vindicated.
Anyway, congratulations to all the people that worked on this article.  It was excellent.
:Actually, Walter McCrone died just weeks after the publication of the Raman spectroscopy results by Brown and Clark in 2002- those by themselves were quite enough to demonstrate that the 1985 results had greatly understated the quantity of titaniuum-based minerals in the ink, and were methodologically strong enough to withstand ill-conceived claims from the PIXE proponents about inadequate sampling. David Trochos (talk) 05:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  McCrone 

message: This statement is factually wrong as it pre-judges the still-on-going debate. As it stands it means that this Wikipedia article is calling the map a fake. Perhaps "began to suspect that it might be a fake". Graemedavis (talk) 22:46, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  began finding evidence that the map was a fake 

message: If it were fake, then the culprit must have had a blank piece of pargement which was about 500 years old, and that is simply not possible. Papers that old are only preserved to this day because they have writing on them.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.162.73.46 (talk) 04:35, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not so- very many old books have at least a couple of blank leaves in them (usually at the beginning and end), and as noted in the article, it is entirely possible that the Vinland Map is drawn on two separate half-sheets of parchment, not a single sheet which has split. David Trochos (talk) 06:57, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I read a German book about popular misunderstandings and fakes in history, called "Niemand hat Columbus ausgelacht" and in the chapter about the Vinland Map, the author suggests somebody had an old map and added Grreenland, Vinland and the islands in the east (Japan?) as a joke sometimes between 1923 (ink!) and 1957. It seems to be rather common that the wrong mixture of ink, paint etc leads to the discovery of a fake, even if the other materials (wood, canvas, paper) are authentic. -- 87.188.229.155 (talk) 22:06, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  I don't believe this to be fake 

message: WIKIPEDIA REMOVES IT PLEASE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.168.79.152 (talk) 18:16, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  VINLAND MAP IS FAKE! 

message: A bit tangential, but this seems for now to be the best place to address the editing comment "I don't understand how your comment applies to the edit. It's a fact of history that Cabot landed on the island NFL, not the continental mainland." For some years, this article has carried the assertion that the proven Norse voyages to Vinland predate "John Cabot's landing on the North American continental mainland in 1497". This has recently, but in my view incorrectly, been changed to refer to a landing on  Newfoundland, with the above reason given for reverting after I changed it back on the peculiar grounds that "Newfoundland is further north than Bordeaux". The "facts of history" were changed somwehat in 1956 when the text John Day's letter of about December 1497 to "the Lord Grand Admiral" (which would be Columbus) was published, after it had been found in Spain's Archivo General de Simancas.
Day states that Cabot landed at the first place he found after his 35-day voyage, then spent a month sailing along the coastline (without further landings) after turning back towards Europe. The southernmost point mentioned, the south tip of the "Island of the Seven Cities" is on the latitude of "Bordeaux River" (45.4 degrees N), which poses two problems- it's too far south for Newfoundland, but not far enough south for Cape Sable. Further confusion is added by the detail that on his return to Europe he mistakenly landed in Brittany (which IS on the latitude of central Newfoundland) rather than England or Ireland (he crossed from what he thought was the latitude of Dursey Head 51.6 degrees N), suggesting that faulty equipment may have been telling him he was further north than he really was throughout the voyage.
To cut a long story short, although Newfoundland remains the "official" site of the landing, the latitudes and the long easterly cruise along the coast AFTER the landing suggest a point in Nova Scotia as more likely. I'm going to try to find a compromise wording. David Trochos (talk) 06:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cabot's landing 

message: The article claims that in 1965 "many academic reviewers of the book took the opportunity to point out evidence that the Map was likely to be a fake", and that this is what led to the 1966 Vinland Map Conference. But how many published academic reviews from 1965-66 actually expressed the view that the map was "likely to be a fake"? It is one thing to express reservations and call for further research (as many writers did) and another to denounce the map as a probable forgery (which very few did).  194.105.165.178 (talk) 13:23, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've made a first attempt at rewording the sentence. David Trochos (talk) 06:43, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a good rewording, resolves the problem 194.105.165.178 (talk) 15:46, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academic reviews in 1965 

message: The provenance of the map is so highly suspect that consideration may be a waste of time:
1. If the original owner of the volume (whose identifying marks were removed) had known that it owned a map of great significance, this would have been revealed, so the original owner did not know of the map (if it existed in the volume), or somehow did not know its significance and was never informed by any expert observer. So we may conclude that the original owner could not have informed the thief of the parchment/map of its significance. 
2. Therefore either the thief was informed by an expert in the map significance, or merely stole the parchment acquired by an expert forger.
3. Therefore a highly dishonest expert was involved at the time of theft of the parchment/map (or later produced a forgery). This is the essential conclusion on provenance of this item.
4. It is most likely that an honest expert would find a map of the highest importance than a dishonest one, and least likely that a highly dishonest expert would forge a map of lesser significance.
5. A highly dishonest expert need not to wait until a genuine article is found to produce something salable to a less expert buyer.
6. If the map were genuine, a highly dishonest expert could have purchased it at a favorable price from a non-expert unaware of its significance, much more easily than he could produce a forgery.
So reasoning on the provenance really establishes such a low probability on any claim of authenticity, that the analytical evidence of forgery should be taken as conclusive. It appears that the amount of effort expended in analyzing and reporting on this item has given those involved a motive for keeping it in the public view by failing to quite accept their own evidence that it is not worth public consideration.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbarth2 (talk • contribs) 15:50, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Provenance 

message: The article includes a rather large illustration showing how damage at the foot of the map could have been created deliberately, with the aim of disguising the join between two parchment leaves of different sizes. While the suggestion is certainly ingenious and may well be correct, I haven't been able to find any reliable source that mentions this possibility. Since Wikipedia isn't the proper venue for advancing personal theories, I really think that the image needs some sort of reference to back it up. 82.132.214.163 (talk) 15:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur that that illustration, which has been an embarrassing mainstay of this article for years,  constitutes WP:Original Research.  If the author wants to write a webpage about such a theory and then add it as an External Link, I'm in favor of keeping the EL if it is interesting, or at least thoughtful.  However, it doesn't merit inclusion in the body as an established fact.  HuMcCulloch (talk) 13:38, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible join of two single leaves - original research? 

message: Not suggesting a direct connection - but the vellum of the Voynich Manuscript is also dated to the same period as that of the Vinland Map: and they are both now at Yale (what is its buying policy?). Jackiespeel (talk) 21:56, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: deleted a blog about this as possibly promotional. This is not a venue for discussion of possible ideas, we need reliable sources discussing any such connection - see WP:RS and WP:VERIFY. Dougweller (talk) 16:02, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Vinland Map and the Voynich Manuscript

message: Looking at the two prominent 'water' features of the Vinland map it seems to be it resembles Lake Melville to the north and Sandwich bay to the south on the Newfoundland/Labrador coast. If the Norse were in conflict with the skraelings (and they were) is it not logical to suppose that the locals would have thorougly destroyed any evidence of Norse settlemetns after the Norse left or were killed?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.23.161 (talk) 10:31, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newfoundland/Labrador 

message: I know that the article is very much about an image, but large image sizes are not friendly to readers with small monitors.  See Wikipedia:Image_use_policy#Displayed_image_size. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:07, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image size 

message: Enzo Ferrajoli de Ry was not an italian-spanish dealer but a thief. He stole more than 110 books from Biblioteca Capitular in Zaragoza. He was imprisioned for eight years. It could be interesting to add this information. Thank you.  Jelenca (talk) 19:12, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enzo Ferrajoli de Ry  

message: In 2004, Kirsten A. Seaver published Maps, myths, and men : The story of the Vinland map, a wide-ranging review of the arguments and evidence presented to that date. Seaver was hailed as the Vinland map's "most thorough and outspoken critic in recent years" for her "exemplary interdisciplinary study". In addition to arguing that the map was a forgery, she also proposed a new theory: that the forger could have been Father Josef Fischer (1858-1944), an Austrian cartographer and Jesuit scholar who was knowledgeable about Norse exploration in America. Seaver argued that Father Fischer had the knowledge, motivation (to undermine Nazi ideology) and means (access to parchment of the appropriate age) to have forged the Vinland Map, possibly in the 1930s. However appealing her theory, she lacked hard evidence to connect Fischer to the Vinland Map.  Subsequent research identifying the source of the actual parchment used (see below) suggests that the map was likely created after Fischer's death, confuting this theory.
:If this section is to be added, I'd propose that the final sentence should be reworded as follows: "Subsequent research into the provenance of the Vinland map documents (see below) suggests that they are unlikely to have spent any time in Fischer's possession." This avoids passing direct judgement on the theory, while indicating that the new evidence conflicts with it. (Also, while Kirsten Seaver's 2004 book does discuss the Fischer theory at length, she actually first proposed it in a 1995 article.) 85.255.235.49 (talk) 08:20, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The trouble is that the Fischer theory is (and as the review listed in my 3 Sep comment indicates, always was) the least useful aspect of Kirsten Seaver's remarkable work on the Vinland Map. Her major contribution to the debate is, in effect, the structure of this Wikipedia article, which probably could not exist without her meticulous summary of events since the Map was first heard of in 1957. Now more than ever, I am reluctant to highlight the effectively discredited Fischer theory. David Trochos (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for the feedback.  Here's a possible revision, which hopefuly could recognize her work without over-emphasizing the failed theory (and theories often fail): "In 2004, Kirsten A. Seaver published Maps, myths, and men : The story of the Vinland map, a wide-ranging review of the arguments and evidence presented to that date. Seaver was hailed as the Vinland map's "most thorough and outspoken critic in recent years" for her "exemplary interdisciplinary study". She also theorized that the forger could have been Father Josef Fischer (1858-1944), an Austrian cartographer and Jesuit scholar. However, subsequent research into the provenance of the Vinland map documents (see below) suggests that they are unlikely to have spent any time in Fischer's possession." Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 13:37, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I like that- would you care to do the honours? David Trochos (talk) 14:37, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Delighted -- since the change in tone minimizes the Fischer theory and is more about the book she wrote, I've used its title as a section title: feel free to change that if you wish! Also, I've removed the cited reviews from the external links section now that they're mentioned in the article. Many thanks, Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 23:31, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Hypothetical Forger 

message: There's an interesting piece about the Vinland Map at the end of this 1966 BBC production (it starts around the 38-minute mark). I don't know if it's viewable outside the UK. It may be blocked for copyright reasons, in which case it probably shouldn't be added to the main article.
Here's the link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p017j146/chronicle-vikings-in-north-america
85.255.234.123 (talk) 09:56, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Good find, which also shows the 1966 state of thinking on the Kensington Runestone and L'Anse aux Meadows (very sniffy British attitude to the fore)! I hope a non-UK Wikipedian will be able to confirm whether the link works. [PS: I hang my head in shame for not spotting the reference to the wrong 1892 exposition] David Trochos (talk) 18:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thought you'd like it! Did you notice Skelton's half-smile at the very end of the interview? As for the understandable exposition mix-up, I also missed it on first reading... I see that even the corresponding list on Spanish wiki mentions only the Exposición Histórico-Americana (and it doesn't have a proper article there, either). 85.255.235.49 (talk) 20:37, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add link to 1966 BBC documentary? 

message: I'm not going to re-revert the removal of a passage about Jacqueline Olin's most recent papers on the Vinland Map (published in journals of very dubious repute), but I'd like to put in a plea for its re-instatement. Mrs Olin, who I believe has been involved with the Vinland Map longer than anybody else, stands as a symbol of one of the two main sources of failure in the Vinland Map investigation (the other being fraud by the likes of Enzo Ferrajoli and Laurence Witten). 
Appointed as the Smithsonian's official scientific investigator of the Vinland Map following a 1966 conference, she has been promoting essentially the same idea (that the Vinland Map ink is degraded from an ordinary medieval iron-gall recipe, in which titanium-rich ilmenite was used to make the requisite iron sulfate) for nearly 50 years, despite all evidence that not only was such a scenario impossible, all chemical studies pointed to the ink being the other main medieval type, based on carbon. That a highly respected Smithsonian scientist should ultimately be reduced to publishing in "vanity" journals says a great deal about the effect the Vinland Map has had on a number of fine minds. 92.18.183.37 (talk) 18:16, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that is both interesting and sad that somebody can get obsessed with a topic to the point of destroying their reputation, but it's really not relevant to the Vinland map. It's not the map itself that affects people, it doesn't hold any magic properties like that. ;-) Instead it just serves as giving undue weight to these theories. If this was an article about Olin, it would be completely different. If you could find a reliable source talking about the map and people going nuts that would be a different thing. --OpenFuture (talk) 20:03, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I have reinstated the Olin references, the removal of which appears to have been motivated by parti pris. 85.255.234.209 (talk) 08:55, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  This being Wikipedia, we would only include it if it is described in reliable independent secondary sources. Including this material sourced to the primary sources, the junk journals themselves, seems perilously close to rubbing her nose in it and is unworthy. Guy (Help!) 11:20, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't belong here. The edit warring IP hopper can appeal at WP:RSN but this article will end up protected if the edit warring continues. (Someone would have to request it at WP:RPP, I can't do it. Doug Weller talk 11:45, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record, there's no IP hopper involved here. As indicated in my first message, I didn't want an edit war, and I do not know who 85.255.233.220 is. (However I'd say in response to Open Future's "It's not the map itself that affects people"- yes it is, but it is a specific example of a general phenomenon) 92.18.183.37 (talk) 17:44, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I am hopping a little by the looks of it, but it's because I'm on mobile broadband! To confirm: the two reversions were done independently, by different people (the second person being me). Apologies for any confusion. 85.255.232.133 (talk) 19:11, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

text:  I guess we'll have to remove reference 17, then, on the grounds that Walter C. McCrone had the article published in his own journal (Microscope)? Or perhaps we should leave the article as it was, and let readers judge the credibility of borderline material for themselves, instead of suppressing it? 85.255.233.220 (talk) 13:29, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The Microscope is an international peer-reviewed journal formed in 1937 by  Dr. Arthur Barron ....Dr. Walter C. McCrone founded  the McCrone Research Institute in 1960 and is referto as the  "Father of Modern Microscopy". -- Moxy (talk) 18:00, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. But McCrone bought the journal from Barron in 1962. He was both editor and publisher in 1999, when the article cited in ref. 17 appeared. 85.255.232.133 (talk) 19:00, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of later material on Jacqueline Olin 

message: Studying the map, I came across a landmass in the far-east of this map. The landmass in question is marked with what I have interpreted as Latin infute sub *agedo?e, the first two words meaning 'legally below' and an unidentifiable third word. I think that it could be the case that this landmass, or that immediately south of it, is supposed to represent the northern part of the Australian Continent. This judgement is based on the landmass' shape location in relation to what seems to be Indonesia. 
Any insight here would be very much welcome! JoeyofScotia (talk) 01:32, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting but this isn't a forum for discussion of the map, only for discussion of the article, and you'd need to find sources meeting WP:RS first. Doug Weller talk 13:04, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does the map depict Australia? 

message: Yale sent me a link to this today. Doug Weller talk 19:08, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I saw it- and sent the author a response listing numerous problems with information presented in the article (some of which was subsequently corrected, some of which I just hope will not find its way into the proposed new book to add yet more confusion to the saga). The results of the tests should certainly go in the page when available, but maybe not this. David Trochos (talk) 00:07, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, i'm sure that will improve the result. Maybe a mention of the plan, but that's all. Doug Weller talk 14:16, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yale to do more non-destructive tests 

message: I see the symposium at the Mystic Seaport Museum on 21 September is going to be live-streamed on YouTube, which is great for those of us who cannot attend. Presumably the footage will be available afterwards as well, so it should be a permanent resource. Is it worth adding the URL as an external link? 90.241.110.235 (talk) 13:02, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Livestream link now added to earlier external source entry 86.190.83.143 (talk) 14:22, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Aaaaand … instantly deleted by a bot! 86.190.83.143 (talk) 14:26, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, thanks for trying! So much for my bright ideas. 90.241.110.235 (talk) 17:53, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

text: I just reverted XLLinkBot's reversion, which is legal.  Re-reversions by human users other than 86.190... (who first added the link) or myself will probably be more effective than if we do it, since the Bot will quickly be up against the 3-reversion rule but we humans won't.  HuMcCulloch (talk) 15:26, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm... it seems there's also a human user who finds the idea of the YouTube link objectionable. Can't say I agree, but since there's already a link to the symposium webpage I guess it's not worth pursuing. I just felt it would be a useful addition to the general store of knowledge, particularly if the results of the new scientific tests are going to be unveiled at the meeting. 90.241.110.235 (talk) 16:41, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  2018 Mystic Seaport symposium - YouTube link 

message: Somebody has added a tag to indicate that they find the article confusing in some respects (they don't say which!). I have reworded the "Possible source identifications, 2013" section slightly in an attempt to address this. Hopefully the tag can be removed, if there are no objections. 90.253.205.141 (talk) 04:37, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: In the absence of any Talk Page clarification as to which aspects of the article are confusing, I've agreed with your revisions, and removed the tag. David Trochos (talk) 17:47, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. The tag was really unwarranted, as the article provides a lucid treatment of an admittedly complex subject. 90.253.205.141 (talk) 11:12, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Confusing' tag 

message: Someone has helpfully added a picture of the Cantino planisphere with caption. However, the only reference to this map in the article is in the "Academic controversies" section, regarding the shape of Greenland. Wouldn't the image be better moved to that section - perhaps with the addition of a sentence or two about its Vinland-like island - or alternatively, omitted altogether? As things stand, it clutters the text of "Yale's position on the map," where it isn't even mentioned.  90.253.205.141 (talk) 11:05, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cantino planisphere image 

message: I've just added a paragraph regarding a recent article by Dr Raymond Clemens. For the record, I'd like to add that I am using a public library computer, and that other Wikipedia comments made using this IP address are emphatically not mine. 88.151.223.210 (talk) 15:23, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Raymond Clemens article