Talk:Wolverine (character)/Archive 3

message: I've requested page protection.  This page needs to be protected until the issue of why edits are constantly reverted is decided one way or the other.  Wikipedia is a collaborative effort.  Let us not lose sight of that. Hiding  talk 08:37, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
:I've protected the page - it appears there is some agreement on that at least. Thryduulf 09:38, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page Protection 

message: In an attempt to understand what this dispute is about, please can someone summarise in 100 words or less what the objections are about - i.e. who objects to what and why. Thryduulf 09:38, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I, and several others, object to Nightscream trying to introduce a lot of, IMO, crufty minutia which is applicable to only one of the five major (i.e., widely viewed and/or many stories) continuities - Marvel Universe, Ultimate Marvel, X-Men (movie) and X2 (movie), X-Men (animated series) and X-Men: Evolution - which are broadly consistant but vary in the minor details, that the page mentions into the Powers section. - SoM 17:22, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically I agree with SoM, though I would also like to point out that alot of Nightscream's crufy minutia consists of Nightscream's opinion disguised as an objective evaluation of the character's abilities. So it's actually even less valid than mere fan cruft which is nebulous to begin with.  The way he states the information is not NPOV. ScifiterX 21:31, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I appreciate the time you have spent trying to help with this problem. However, I completely disagree with you. As far as his information seeming factual there is actually proof on this very page that it was not. Most of his editions were not factual (considering this is serial fiction we are talking about her that doesn't even sound right). He was not the subject to name calling and insults. He did most of the insulting and name calling and every once and awhile someone would understandably slip and respond to him in kind. You are being completely unfair and biased toward Nightscream and I haven't a clue why. What you are suggesting that we should have done is exactly what we actually did. I am at a loss here. One party in this situation has broken rules, repeatedly insulted other users, and essentially been extremely manipulative.  That was Nightscream. He is the one that got himself temporarilly banned. He is the one that cooperated very little with the discussion process. I really don't see your evaluation as being consistant with fact or objective at all. Please take the time to look a little closer at the dialogue. ScifiterX 02:39, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Did you even read the date stamp of his message? He posted this days ago, so you're out of line, and not heeding my general advice of not re-opening old wounds.  You all made mistakes here.  Now let's move on. -- Netoholic @ 02:47, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  moving forward 

message: Wolverine possesses the mutant ability to morph his body, specifically his height and facial features, similar to the mutant Mystique. We can clearly assume this because in Arthur Adam's run on Fantastic Four (The New Fantastic Four) he is clearly two feet shorter then Spiderman, however he is the same height as Spiderman in the New Avengers. It is possible, however, that this radical change in height is due to his metal skeleton shrinking and expanding with the temperature, and not to a mutational ability to polymorph. 
Wolverine has never been seen using the restroom for any purpose other then bathing or regurgitating, so it is obviously clear he has the ability to proccess and break down all nutrients he ingests without the need to expell waste. It is safe to assume Wolverine's body will use these additional proteins to heal damaged tissues.
-unkiedev, 7/15/05
You got it. We got to add that. ScifiterX 04:14, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: additional abilities

message: :::Okay, I am just going to focus on this one paragraph at this point.  I am going to put what I discern is necessary in bold, what I would add in italics and bold and every thing not necessary or relevant will be left as it is. 
Wolverine is a mutant with a number of both natural and artificial enhancements to his physiology.
The cells of Wolverine’s body regenerate many times faster than those of normal humans, allowing him to heal from injuries at a speed far beyond that of normal humans'. This “healing factor,” as it’s called, is automatic, and not subject to Wolverine’s will, and has enabled him to completely recover within minutes or even seconds from injuries usually fatal to most humans, such as stabbings, gunshot wounds, vehicular impacts, and severe burns. This ability extends fully to his nervous system, which is largely not the case for normal human beings, and is so advanced that his body can even expel foreign objects, such as the parasitic eggs of the alien race known as the Brood, as seen in Uncanny X-Men #162 (Oct. 1982) and Uncanny X-Men #234 (Late Sept. 1988). Extremely severe injuries, however, have taken longer periods of time for him to recover. For example, in Uncanny X-Men #225 (Jan. 1988) he took what appeared to be several minutes to an hour to heal from several laser blasts, during which he could barely move. However, in Wolverine #39 (May 1991), his body repaired itself from severe burns covering his entire body within what appeared to be a few minutes or less, during which his mobility wasn’t affected. In another book, all the tissue on his face was blown away by a gunshot blast, leaving only his hair, eyes, and skull, which appeared to take longer to heal. It took almost two months to recover from his duel with Shingen Harada in the first Wolverine miniseries (1983), in which a sword went all the way through his trunk. His longest convalescence period depicted may have been that which followed the beating and torture received in Uncanny X-Men #251 (Nov. 1989) from Donald Pierce, Lady Deathstrike and the Reavers, which involved multiple harpoonings, whippings, and crucifixion in the Australian desert. This period lasted at least a couple of years (reader's time, though it is unclear how much time it took within the comic book), during which he was slower and weaker, and his body's ability to tolerate his cigar habit was compromised. He has recovered completely from injuries that would have killed ordinary humans, even those with superhuman abilities. He can regenerate organs such as eyes and large portions of flesh, but hypothetically not completely severed limbs or entire major organs such as his heart. He can also regenerate nervous tissue which is not possible for ordinary human adults. His healing factor has been depicted with some degree of contradiction, depending on the writer.
::::Note: according to writers at Marvel Wolverine cannot regenerate entire limbs. Due to his skeleton its hard to completely sever his limbs so this is not much of a problem for him, but the fictional principle is that his healing factor is only developed to a certain degree and that degree does not include being able to completely regenerate an entire limb. That is why in the Age of Apocalypse story Wolverine only has one hand. However, as he hasn't yet lost a limb or a major internal organ and he is a fictional character and at any time a writer can decide his healing factor just became developed to the next level its best to word it as hypothetically he can't heal this or that. Tidies it up nicely.
His healing factor can regenerate some internal organs, such as his eyes, but not larger ones such as his heart, as established in Uncanny X-Men Annual #11 (1986). It is unknown whether he can regenerate entire limbs that have been completely severed, though it is thought to be unlikely.
His healing factor makes him immune to most diseases, poisons, or drugs (except in massive doses), and limited immunity to the fatigue poisons generated by bodily activity, resulting in enhanced stamina. Because of his cellular regeneration, Wolverine ages far more slowly than humans, as he was born in the late 1800s, and, from photos has aged little since World War II.
::::His stamina is not "enhanced" it is officially "metahuman", meaning beyond even the superhuman range. Enhanced stamina entails being able to perform at peak levels for nearly half a day; like a body builder who can continually lift 500 pounds over and over again without being tired. Superhuman would be the same thing to the extent that the character could do it for at least a day or two. Metahuman is where a character can push his body to its absolute limit for several days or even indefinately. That is where Wolverine is at. Now, if he is injured or something that is naturally going to affect his stamina, but under optimal conditions his stamina is beyond the enhanced range. So saying "enhanced" isn't really the right term. ScifiterX 21:12, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We also don't need to say that he was born in the 1800's if we just state he is over 100 years old. The origin story line (although I personally accept it) is still a subject of contention among Marvel writers and editors even today. So specific date times for his beginning should probably be avoided.
This "healing factor" also grants immunity to most toxins and diseases, gives him enough stamina to exert himself at peak levels for days, and retards aging to an unknown degree. He is well over 100 years old, yet his appearance and physique are unchanged since the peak years of his life (apparently over a century ago). Photos taken of him during the World War II that have survived up until modern times substantiate this. However, writers have suggested that the healing factor is also the cause of his amnesia.
So if you read just the bold. That is how I would word it. Everything else isn't necessary. However, many of Nightscream's details have been absorbed into the new text if you look closely. Such as photos of Wolverine taken during WWII, the point about his limbs regenerating being reworked more carefully. Now I am going to go have a beer and take a nap. YAAAWWWNNNN. ScifiterX 21:16, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Step 2a

message: Wolverine's skeleton, including his claws, has been completely coated in the nigh-indestructible metal adamantium.  Adamantium can be cut with a special subatomic particle beam; otherwise, to all intents and purposes it is virtually indestructible, and by extension, so are his bones and claws.  Due to the adamantium coating (which also maintains the cutting edge), the limiting factor on what he can cut through is based upon his own strength, rather than the resiliency of the claws.  The adamantium coating on his skeleton interferes with his bones' ability to produce red blood cells, but is compensated by his accelerated cellular regeneration, as established in Uncanny X-Men #237 (Early Nov. 1988).
Wolverine's claws and skeleton have been molecularly laced with nigh-indestructible metal Adamantium. The adamantium composition keeps the claws sharp and mean that his ability to cut through things is limited by his strength, not the claws.
::Adamantium has its own entry so it does not need to be described in depth here beyond the fact that it is nigh indestructable.
::Laced is a better way to phrase it. Blood is created in the body within the marrow of the bones. If a person's bones are all coated with metal they would die regardless of any healing factor. Also when he was shown to be given the adamantium it was pumped into his blood stream, thus lacing the bones. His bones were not taken out and spray painted with adamantium and then put back into his skeleton. Basically his bones would appear to be completely coated with adamantium until you looked at them under a microscope. Then you would see that there were holes allowing blood corpuscles to get through. Having  metal all over your bones that shouldn't be there would undoubtably make the production and circulation of blood from the marrow to the rest of the body less effectient. But, provided there is at least some mechanism for allowing the marrow to exist and produce blood and then  to transmit that blood to the rest of the body, it wouldn't kill him.
:::Now Bullseye actually has an entire adamantium spine and then has adamantium reinforcement throughout his skeleton. But most of his bones are still normal and able to produce red blood cells. He would just have strips of adamantium (like coathanger thin) reinforcing all of his major bones. Making it basically impossible to break the bones (compound fracture wise), but most of them can still be pulverized. So Bullseye can get away with having an all adamantium or adamantium coated spine because he still has a source of red blood cells in his other major bones like his femurs.
ScifiterX 09:56, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Step 2e

message: This is getting nowhere very fast. The page has now been locked for a fortnight. I don't even want to think about how many rules that fact alone is breaking, and as far as I can see we're no closer in opinion than we were at the start of this absurd process.
I've chopped down Wolverine (comics)/Temp into something that... well... frankly I'm not at all happy with, but it's as close to comfortable as I can get with something based on Nightscream's edit. We need to get this page unprotected ASAP now. - SoM 20:54, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Step 4

message: Look, Netoholic, so far I have given you the benefit of the doubt. But, you just came on my talk page and told me what I could and could not say in this discussion. That is an attempt to compromise my right to advocate my own point of view. If we are having a discussion about a dispute, naturally I am going to have to describe the subject in order to analyze and evaluate it to come to a resolution. Your commanding me to silence is hardly going to solve anything. And yes, the consensus version was a consensus version. Nightscream was one single dissenter who refused to obey the rules or cooperate with the democratic process. That was why he got blocked, that is why the page was locked.  I just spelled it out for you earlier that I would be ammenable to cooperating with him and looking at his edit to see if we could re-evaluate it and try to work some of his material in and you absolutely ignored my post. This is beyond frustrating. ScifiterX 20:20, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I asked you to please refrain from commenting on the other editors.  It does not help your position at all.  If you have concerns about Nightscreams current version, please make constructive criticism in the section above.  Dwelling on the past and any previous bad behavior is counter-productive.  If you are too frustrated to work on this, then by all means take a break.  No one wants to supress your point of view, but you need to express that view in a better way without resorting to incivility. -- Netoholic @ 20:31, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

text: The village pump thing might have been my "fault" since I did post there after Nightscream requested assistance from me. The goal being to bring in people with comic book backgrounds to help mediate, decide and build consensus on this issue. - RoyBoy 800 05:58, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: About advocating our own point of view

message: PC13 has just chopped down the temp powers thing while still noting it's too long. That makes it seven or eight people who have reverted or significantly objected to Nightscream's version, against only Nightscream pushing it.
Why is this even an issue? Really - if it was me vs. Nightscream, or  even me & SX vs. Nightscream, I could get why there was this big thing here. But as things stand, even Netoholic who's pushing for Nightscream to have the final say on the shape of the powers section for some reason admits Nightscream's current version - to say nothing of the original version which he pushed for  months - is too long by half. I mean really, over 90% of the people who have by word or action expressed any interest in this matter say Nightscream's version is unacceptable, and some have gone as far as to label it outright vandalism. The word is "consensus", not "unanimity". Why the hell do we have to have Netoholic's big letter-of-the-law process, when the numbers suggest that we're going to end up back where we started. - SoM 14:03, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm right in there with you SoM, but try to settle down a little. I appreciate your equity but there's no use letting this bug you. You stopped me from saying some things that otherwise might have put me at a disadvantage so I'm just returning the favor. So far you have made the most sense out of any one in this discussion that I can see and I appreciate the fact that you haven't allowed yourself to be intimidated like some of the others who disappeared never to be heard from again. Most of all I appreciate that you have been fair. But when you get worked up you play right into certain people's hands (that is a general statement of common sense, not an accusation aimed at at a particular person). ScifiterX 20:58, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Yeah, made the mistake of posting about something which irritates me while annoyed about something in RL. Bad combination. - SoM 19:11, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Up above in my first post under #Working towards an end to this, where does it say Nightscream has "final say".  In fact, the process was designed so that you kids can learn to work together better, not about deciding who's version was final.  It is so arrogant to think that one person's edit is final.  You guys wasted a lot of time just doing knee-jerk reverts of each other, it never seemed to occur to you to actually work as a team. -- Netoholic @ 15:01, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as it not occuring to anyone that we shouldn't work as a team.... This discussion page has 3 archives full of text of people trying to sort out thier differences on various aspects of this page. Working as a team does not entail submitting to the whimsy of one editor in a way that will compromise the quality of an article. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the time you have put into this, but once again I completely disagree with you, Netoholic. ScifiterX 21:02, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I was angry, like I said above, and misread the bit at the top. At the same time, like I said, I wasn't happy with the consensus edit, where I went as far as I was prepared to go, and Nightscream's version was everything that annoyed me about that version magnified to the limit. I thought, and still think, that all the additions he has attempted to make to this section were and are beyond worthless. "Beyond," because worthless additions neither make something better nor worse. Nightscream's edits made the section worse. - SoM 19:11, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Consensus" 

message: Right-O!  All right then,  Nightscream should be warned via personal E-mail, and If he doesn't get the message, well, maybe he has to learn a lesson the hard way...  I have to say.  Also, I agree that this should be a massive cooperative effort, not a group of individual efforts that get knee jerk reactions and hard feelings...
Michael 18:09, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Right-O... 

message: Are these helpful? Even besides the fact that lists in general are frowned upon where prose will serve on WP, there are people he's fought once, obscure characters, characters whose meetings with Wolverine are obscure, and characters who are general X-Men foes/allies rather than notable Wolverine foes/allies. Whether they were ever helpful or not, now they've reached a stage where they're just messy text dumps rather than helpful information. - SoM 00:56, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Crossovers/Allies/Enemies lists 

message: The reason I replaced the Dell'otto (sp?) image with the Coipel one is that we get a far better look at most of his costume (especially the mask) in the Coipel one. The lighting and pose are too extreme in the AXM1 cover to be a good box picture - SoM 19:03, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wolverine box image

message: I think we need a section on the AoA Wolverine, since he is very different from the main Version. T-1000 01:35, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Age of Apoc Wolverine

message: Why is the powers section last? T-1000 20:26, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Simplicity. Listing the various versions of the character together makes most sense. - SoM 22:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: However, the Other media section should be last so the pics doesn't cross into other section as well as not looking so ugly. Also, the general marvel vesion is often titled Character History. This is consistant with most other pages. T-1000 00:38, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The other media section being heavily over-imaged is a matter in and of itself - you should NEVER have two images directly opposite each other on the same page. And the character history thing is being (very) gradually sorted on the applicable pages - the standard's new. - SoM 20:28, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, althought I think we do need one example of Wolvie in games. It's a small pic anyway. T-1000 00:08, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Powers section

message: Wolverine did wear the leather jacket outside of NXM, such as in issues of Wolverine and Uncanny. Also, I think he wore it longer (in the 616 universe) than he did the inverted outfit, which I only recall being worn in Austen's Holy War arc. I do recall Marvel  having his hair slicked back and a goatee added to tie-in with Ultimate X-Men, though. --DrBat 20:42, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: He wore a shirt and/or zipped the jacket up elsewhere, which when you look at a full-body picture is a significant change (Also, in his own comic, he was mostly wearing plain clothes at the time, IIRC). The design of the jacket often varied significantly elsewhere too. - SoM 22:14, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  outfit 

message: What's wrong with the Wolverine vs. Odin pic? I think it sums up his powers nicely.T-1000 22:32, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In the "Minus One" issue of Untold Tales of Spider-Man.  -Sean Curtin 05:33, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ta. Somehow, that doesn't feel notable to me. - SoM 10:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? How is "patch" notable if "Agent Ten" is not? T-1000 16:40, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Because he used that identity for the first 35 issues of his own title, plus something like 60 issues of Marvel Comics Presents and various references in other books both at the time and since. Slightly different from a one-shot ID that'll never be referenced again. - SoM 17:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

text: How about a reference to him being called Weapon Ten by Fantomex in the Ultimate Marvel line?  V1rtue 04:05, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wolverine vs Odin

message: First, I would like a source on where Bill Jemas said that Thomas Logan is not the father of Wolverine. Second, I have already pointed out the Jemas no longer works for Marvel, so his opinion should no longer be valid. This is directed towards the user who removed the information from Wolverine Profile. To the best of my knowledge, Joey Q. has never commented on these aspects. This user:205.188.116.67 has also vandalized pages in the past.T-1000 04:33, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Thomas Logan