Talk:The KLF/Archive 2

message: I've cut the following section from the article:

==Influence, covers etc==
The influence of the KLF on the dance music scene lives on. 
Last Train to Trancentral (Live from the Lost Continent) is used in the finale for [[Blue Man Group]]'s theatrical show. Blue Man Group's Complex Rock Tour featured pieces from "The Rock Concert Instruction Manual", a tongue-in-cheek deconstruction of pop music & the rock concert experience.
The Austrian pop act [[Edelweiss (band)|Edelweiss]] scored a Europe-wide No.1. hit Bring me Edelweiss by supposedly following the instructions given in [[The Manual]].
British band [[The Kaiser Chiefs]] covered the song 'What Time Is Love?' on [[February 14]] [[2006]] on [[BBC Radio 1]].

There's a temptation in wiki to throw in the latest factoids, the latest news, without reflection on their importance. Covers - especially something as trivial as a once off session cover on the radio (!) don't really belong in the main article.  Since the songs in question are all in my opinion notable, they can have their own articles and the covers mentioned there (see: Category talk:The KLF, Talk:Last Train To Trancentral, Talk:What Time Is Love?). Edelweiss is already covered in The Manual. --kingboyk 18:10, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cut Section 

message: I'm wondering if we could/should post the KLF info sheets and press releases to Wikisource. Does any KLF-interested editor know how Wikisource works, and what the copyright status of a press release is? --kingboyk 21:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikisource is pretty tough on copyright issues and they delete things straight away if there is any doubt. Someone published the Manual on wikipedia a while back and I moved it to Wikisource and it got deleted in a week. I doubt the info sheets will survive. Drstuey 10:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikisource 

message: Following interesting contemporary articles have not been used in the article:
*NME report on the incident where the KLF gave away the DJ gear at the DMC show in Holland
--kingboyk 20:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resources 

message: In this and other KLF related articles I have quoted and cited KLF Communications information sheets. I'm not entirely sure what their status is re acceptability. I think Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources may apply, which is that they are fine in KLF related articles provided they aren't contradicted by 'superior' secondary sources. I'm sure they are fine as evidence of what The KLF 'said' at the time about their work. Where possible I will quote secondary sources, which is generally the music press such as NME. --kingboyk 18:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: It's from the liner notes to the Indie Top Music collection (or whatever) that KSTJ appears on.  Perhaps someone else has a copy and can add the appropriate citation before I dig out my copy, which may be a while.  --juli. t ? 05:09, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's "Indie Top 20 Volume 8" (1990), a UK record published by Beechwood Music, # TT08.  Apparently the quote is not attributed to anyone, however.  Not sure whether that's a problem...? Vinoir 09:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, as a quote needing a citation it's hardly an important one :) so we can let it pass for now. Hopefully a better source will come up later (such as when I finish trawling through the Library of Mu). A sleevenote on an el cheapo compilation label probably does't cut it, I'd have thought. I'm sure I've seen a better source somewhere though and it'll appear like magic one of these days... --kingboyk 10:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was pretty sure it was specifically attributed to one of Bill or Jimmy, but maybe it was just attributed to "The KLF" there.  Now, who wrote up the liner notes isn't attributed, but that isn't necessary.  Anyway, you're right, it's minor.  Somebody, speaking on behalf of The KLF, said it!  --juli. t ? 11:11, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Haha. That would be great.  A day or two after I made that first edit about '23' it dawned on me that you may have intended to leave this subject slightly more covert, shall we say?  If this were true, of course I would have no problem with the more obvious references to 23 being removed, and just a 23 (numerology) link remaining in the text, for example...? ;-) --Vinoir 18:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh no, not at all. It's nice to have a bit of a fun on the talk page - and you can be sure that if I hit 22 references and consider the job done I'll find an extra one to add - but I have perfectly serious amibitions for the article (featured status) so your edits were more than welcome :-) Great work on Shag Times by the way. Almost eveything of importance is blue linked now, I think the only important ones left red are Doctorin' The Tardis and Brilliant (band). --kingboyk 19:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely right it should get to featured status.  That and the discography (although there's a sticky point there, see my comment on Talk:KLF discography).  I'll have a look at The KLF article today, to see what thoughts/actions I can offer. --Vinoir 10:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The [[Pet Shop Boys]] influence quote. 

message: I stumbled across the  in the Pink Floyd article, and I've used it here for the paragraph long quotes from Drummond. What do you think? Please revert if you think it detracts from the appearance. --kingboyk 15:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good to me.  Personally I'm a fan of the old italics but it isn't the policy here and fair enough too.  Certainly, the longer quotes benefit from some delineation and I think those jumbo quotemarks do the trick very nicely.  --Vinoir 17:56, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cquote Template 

message: I recall it from an interview, which would likely have appeared in either The New Musical Express or The Face, with KLF. I don't have the copies to hand. If this is unable to be verified by anyone else then remove it.LessHeard vanU 09:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timelords / Ford Prefect 

message: The KLF section needs expanding, and converting from it's "list" format into prose. Thinking about it I fear that would count against the article being classed as "good". Thoughts? --kingboyk 17:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I think that The_KLF#The_KLF and The_KLF#Mythology and references need work.  The latter is more problematic but this is less detectable to the eyes of someone unfamiliar with the band.  The KLF section can have a bit of a facelift quite quickly.  In fact, I'll have a go right now... --Vinoir 10:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Done...I hope that this reads better, and is comprehensive without being over-detailed. --Vinoir 12:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks great to me at first glance. I'll give it some more thorough attention later or tommorow. Cheers mate, another job well done. --kingboyk 02:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[The_KLF#The_KLF]] 

message: *more on origins, how/when did they first meet, what where they doing before. -- Done. kingboyk
*more on legacy - what was their long-term influence, who was inspired by them or influenced by them and how/why. -- Long term influence on them? Gosh, don't think I've ever heard anyone mentioned! (Except Elvis of course! :)). Influenced by them, we're working on it. kingboyk
*musical style is not neatly explained anywhere (scattered throughout article right now). -- Is this still a problem? Let's fix if it is. kingboyk
*would be useful to have one short section explaining instruments they used, genres of music they went into, also who influenced *them*? -- Instruments. Got yer White Room album handy? I know it was SSL, Akai S900, Oberheim OB8. kingboyk
*more quotes from drummound, cauty, anybody they worked with, positive & negative reviews from the press, any other musicians like them/hate them? could go in a "response" section. -- Quotes from other people would be nice. For starters, I'll see if anything from the Sound on Sound article could be used. kingboyk
p.s. the lead should just summarize the article. right now it explains things that dont appear anywhere else in the article body, this should be changed so its *just a summary*. and there shouldnt be any short pgraphs (one or two sentences). also some of the sections that have their own article are over-summarized right now, they could do with being a bit more fleshed out. -- Working on this kingboyk
otherwise article is preety good! Zzzzz 15:15, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope Zzzzz won't mind, but let's use his suggestions as something of a todo list. --kingboyk 22:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks. You did a pretty good job with your refactoring, the only thing I could disagree with was the zapping of the "gleeful political tactics" sentence as it was rather nice prose I thought :) (and not written by me). You've given plenty of food for thought, too. With regards to reviews, we've quoted plenty (good and bad) throughout the albums and singles articles. --kingboyk 15:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: i didnt zap it its in the "origins" section! Zzzzz 16:01, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh aye! hehe. Sorry. --kingboyk 16:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The articles in the Library of Mu that review The KLF's whole career will prove handy for reviews on The KLF page too.  All the comments are really useful, and the changes to the article are wise moves, although I must admit I quite liked some of the images being situated on the left - is the left-alignment considered bad practice? --Vinoir 16:11, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer them placed alternately left and right too. I don't think there's a guideline on it but I might be wrong. --kingboyk 16:16, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it seems to imbalance the aesthetics of the article to right-justify all of them.  Haven't found a guideline yet - there's none at Wikipedia:Images. --Vinoir 16:28, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: This article is missing...

message: We did it. We now have exactly 23 references in the article. I suspect more will be forthcoming, so here's the permanent link for posterity: . The Mgmt. --kingboyk 21:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you working on an article, or a homage? (Grin)LessHeard vanU 21:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah, we just thought it would be humourous to stop at 23, given that number's significance in their history. We won't though, of course :) Not a homage (and I believe we've documented the good with the bad) but we want to get Featured Article status, and that means citations - lots of 'em! --kingboyk 21:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  23! 

message: i see there is lots of horizontal lines manually inserted in the article. what are they for? Zzzzz 21:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because for TOC purposes I want the sections to be at === level, but that level doesn't add a line rule. It's messy without the seperation. The sections are too long to be free flowing. --kingboyk 23:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: horizontal lines

message: We mention the performance in some detail, so I have no doubt a screencap is fair use. Unfortunately my copy of the performance is very low res. These are the best I could do (I've chosen the Bill shot for now, as it's the clearest) -
--kingboyk 20:00, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brits images 

message: Oh my God, look at this bullshit!  She got a newspaper to believe that - because a few words of hers were sampled ("wanna see you sweat", one other line I forget not) and because she got a co-writing credit due to that - she is the songwriter and musician behind The KLF! (Of course, most of their collaborators are well known and did get their fair credit - would the world know of Ricardo da Force or MC Bello or Nick Coler if not for that?). Anywayz, there's a source but I hope we can find some other more reasonable sources too. --kingboyk 22:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw some sources in the Library of Mu; this'll go nicely in "Legacy".  Utah Saints will go in that section too. --Vinoir 07:21, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yikes, if you must! Better throw in N-Trance too, God help us! --kingboyk 07:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pity Wikipedia hasn't got an "embarrassed mumble" template. --Vinoir 07:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol! How about very small text or ROT13? :) --kingboyk 07:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Haha.  Both. --Vinoir 07:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wanda Dee 

message: To fit in nicely with the text, we need samples of Whitney, the original All You Need Is Love, the KLF at the Brits, 2K, The Magnificent, and I think one from each album? --kingboyk 07:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm more than happy to do that, but I don't currently have Nero (with which I'm familiar for that task) with me.  I'll try to find another tool; do you know offhand if Windows Media Player will do it? --Vinoir 07:24, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know how it's done. Best check the Wikipedia help pages. It has to be OGG format I think. --kingboyk 07:25, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, cool. --Vinoir 07:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Song samples 

message: Do we have enough/too many now, or could the article stand the inclusion of the "Why Sheep?" photo? I have a copy ready to upload if it's wanted. --kingboyk 21:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Why Sheep?" sounds great to me.  The article length warning is appearing, but I don't think we're overlong. --Vinoir 07:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we're doing OK on text length. I'll up the picture later. --kingboyk 07:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures 

message: When we've "finished" we need to clean up and standardise our references (this means in part "man, I should go read the guidelines"). I favour Author, article name in quotes (NO italics), publication name, date, link. Author and publication should be wiki-linked if they have or deserve an article. --kingboyk 22:04, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Haha. :) Yes, those refs definitely need standardising soon. --Vinoir 07:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Hmmm. Looking at The KLF 1987 Completeist List, there's actually no mention of "Kopyright Liberation Front". --Vinoir 02:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe it was in an Info Sheet then? It definitely sprang up somewhere! OK, I'm at home for a day or so, what do I need to be looking for? It is just the sleevenotes of The Man? What about songwriting credits for all the albums etc., do we have them or do I need to find them? Oh, unrelated, but do you have the 12s of Burn the Beat and Burn the Bastards? I'd like to get a better idea about those releases and whether they are sufficiently different to be listed independent of each other. --kingboyk 11:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've got KLF 002T, "Burn The Bastards"/"Burn The Beat".  Artist and writers given as The KLF (and S. Stewart for "Bastards").  Other data is "This is a transition record" --Vinoir 13:41, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, they never officially said that KLF only stood for Kopyright Liberation Front. Instead they often told journalists who asked, that KLF stood for other things, with one prominent other one being Keep Looking Forward. I think the intention was to mirror the multiplicity of names that the ELF have in Immuninatus. Drstuey 11:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kopyright Liberation Front