Talk:Klingon language

message: Article states:
:<tlh> — ____ — voiceless alveolar lateral affricate (as Nahuatl Nahuatl)
:<Q> — ____ — voiceless uvular affricate (occurs in Nez Percé, Wolof and Kabardian)
The two "____" blanks above are where the IPA renditions at issue belong.
Previously the IPA values were shown as  and  respectively.
Now 169.233.72.162 (who has made no other edits anywhere) has changed these to  and  respectively, as well as changing  to  in the infobox, with no edit summary.
Please note that the voiceless alveolar lateral affricate article uses  — as did this article previously.
It is my impression that the arch ("tie bar") should be over the two IPA characters (conjoining them as a single phoneme), not between the latter and the closing "/".  But I'm no expert.  I'd like to have confirmation or correction from someone more familiar with IPA than myself, please.
In the absence of any explanation, and of any track record for this editor, I am reverting this alteration once.  I'm not confident enough to do it twice.
Can anyone else conclusively determine the validity or invalidity of this alteration? – SAJordan talkcontribs 08:13, 5 Dec 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the problem is that the "tie bar" is sometimes displayed wrongly in some fonts. The correct way is to put it between the first and second character of the cluster; however, in some fonts it appears to join the two characters before it. So it's a font issue... but you were right to revert 169.233.72.162's change, although (s)he did it in good faith. Thus,  and  are the correct ways to transcribe tlh and Q in IPA. — N-true 23:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA renditions of tlh and Q 

message: I like the new "Canon" section. Though, a question: Are the two books Hamlet and ghIlghameS considered Canon? — N-true 02:08, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I believe that everything in those publications was canon already.Alpha Omicron 04:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canon fodder 

message: I propose we move that section to it's own article at Klingon language in popular culture, it's rather large relative to the rest of the article. Alpha Omicron 03:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cultural References

message: In an episode of Frasier, a Jewish Trekkie coworker called Noel performs an act of revenge by translating into Klingon, rather than Hebrew, a speech which Frasier gives at his son's bar mitzvah. I am mildly curious to know whether or not this was authentic Klingon. PDAWSON3 (talk) 10:04, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The speech was written(or translated) by Okrand, so it's authentic Klingon. The way it's spoken, though, isn't.--Cyberman TM (talk) 19:25, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frasier 

message: The image :Image:TheKlingonHamlet.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --10:54, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:TheKlingonHamlet.jpg

message: Pardon me, as I do not speak Klingon. Quoted from the article:
"They often greet each other with the Klingon word nuqneH (literally: "What do you want?"). This is the only greeting in Klingon." 
Perhaps that IS the only greeting currently used. How ever, I recall hearing an interview with some Star Trek authors, many years ago. In response to requests the created a Klingon greeting, which translated to: "Have you fought recently?" Saxophobia (talk) 23:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a nice and creative way that Klingons – if they existed – might actually say as a greeting. However, it's not canon, meaning it was never said in a Star Trek show or movie and cannot be found as a phrase in the various Klingon dictionaries and phrasebooks. — N-true (talk) 00:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Only greeting in Klingon? 

message: Why is /v/ not in a labio-dental column? Why is /w/ not a voiced labio-velar approximant as defined in the IPA handbook? -- Evertype·✆ 22:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA chart 

message: In the Undiscovered Country, didn't General Chang make the remark about Shakespeare being best read in the original Klingon?
:No, it was Chancellor Gorkon, as is also written on the back of the Hamlet book itself. However, the quote isn't a real quote. It was said differenty in the movie. — N-true (talk) 21:03, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: quotation accuracy

message: I have been told from the United States Copyright Office that "a language of itself is not protected by copyright" (I had asked specifically about conlangs), which agrees with the article. However, it would be nice to have a citable reference for this. Does anyone know one? kwami (talk) 07:31, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  copyright 

message: Firstly: According to the main Wikipedia page, only 12 speakers are known throughout the world. Technically speaking, there are more speakers of binary code (due to encryption) than Klingon, yet there in no article on Binary (Cryptographic Language). Every person since childhood who played Commander Keen had memorized most of "standard galactic alphabet" but no-one really cares. Secondly: Is the Klingon language actually used by anyone on the cast of Star Trek? For example, the cast of Avatar speak some kind of language (which was actually documented by writers) although the Navii is never actually spoke it properly. The Rayman series by UBIsoft speak gibberish throughout the whole thing.
:You can't judge a constructed language by the same standards as a natural language. Especially a language like Klingon, which was never created with the purpose of becoming a spoken language to begin with. Klingon was created to serve as an illustration, a feature of an alien race, and as such it does an eminent job. The number of fans or other people who've learned it is completely moot. 
:Please note that numbers of speakers are always a difficult point in the case of constructed languages. It's much easier to establish the number of speakers of Russian, although even these figures are already problematic: we can take native speakers for granted, but how do we count people who've only learned it at school, for example? And well, constructed languages have no native speakers (Esperanto being the exception here) and aren't generally thought in schools. Therefore, we can't really establish their number of speakers either, because who decides who is a speaker and who isn't? Is a person who has gone through 10 lessons, but doesn't use the language, a speaker? Is a person who regularly writes a few sentences with the help of a dictionary and a grammar a speaker? And who's going to find out? Instead of "speakers" it's better to speak of "users", but even then, it is incredibly hard to give reliable figures.
:As for your seond question, I don't know; never watched the series. —IJzeren Jan  Uszkiełtu? 12:47, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does this language actually deserve a page? 

message: I removed the following uncited and doubtful text regarding the "German Myth" from the article. If you believe any part of it is accurate, please re-add it to the article, making appropriate citations to reliable sources. Thanks, Vectro (talk) 14:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: However, this myth is unknown in Germany, although the German translation is commonly considered so good as to be better than the original.
I always thought that it was Russians who claimed to have originally had Shakespeare, etc.  I even think I remember Chekhov talking along those lines once or twice.  Never heard this about Germans. Anyway:  for what it's worth. Shocking Blue (talk) 22:19, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  German myth 

message: There is an opera entirely in the Klingon language.  See 'u' (opera).  -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:09, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: [['u' (opera)]]

message: :Category:Speakers of Klingon has been nominated for discussion. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz  (Discussion) 13:49, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed deletion of [[:Category: Speakers of Klingon|Category: Speakers of Klingon]] 

message: It appears that the Wiktionary community feels that Qapla' qualifies as a loan word from Klingon.  (see discussion page for more details)
I'm thinking that this might be worth mentioning in Klingon_language#Appearances_in_other_media. However, as a Klingonist I'm hardly an impartial judge, and I'm also not that experienced with Wikipedia or Wiktionary, so I figured I'd suggest it here rather than add it myself.
Also, the phrase De' nIb DachenmoHchugh bIquvHa' (subbed as "To duplicate data... is a great dishonor!"; more literally "If you create identical data, you are dishonored.") is used in a trailer for Don't Copy That 2. Marc Okrand - the creator of tlhIngan Hol - was on the set to make sure the Klingon was authentic.  Photos at time indexes 0:45, 1:14 and 1:18 of this slideshow.
The Klingon subtitles used in the actual video appear to be nonsensical, but I don't have a citation for that. --Tesseraktik (talk) 10:43, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Appearances in other media - Wiktionary and Don't Copy That 2 

message: I notice the article currently only has code2000 and pIqaD as the fonts for the klingon characters, there are a number of others now, is it alright if I add them to the font stuff in the page?  constructium, FairFax (same site) both of which follow the CSUR.  I thought I saw more but now I'm not so sure.  Kaelem Gaen (talk) 20:25, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  More font families for Klingon?

message: Hi,
I propose to remove the Klingon letters used throughout the text, which are only visible if you install something. 
Yes, I am a friend of the Klingon language, and I even belong to the few people who can read pIqaD, so I should accept it. But I believe that using the font makes the page look less serious for people who like to look up what Klingon is when they find a bunch of incorrect shown characters. And it still is difficult to make Klingon be considered as a serious language. Next, I believe that very, very few poeple have this font system installed on their computer, and they will not install it, just to read this one page. It's not (yet) a standard option on Windows you might just activate with a click. Maybe it's better to add images to display the caracters. By the way, I know that other languages (chinese, japanese or arabic) also have the display problem, but that's not my only point.</br>
An addtion: The article starts with the note Some characters may not display correctly on the page, unless you have the Klingon pIqaD script installed on your computer, but the link does not lead you to a useful page that helps you getting this script.
Please answer keep or remove and discuss here until we have enough answers what you consider best. Thanks for your support. -- LLieven (talk) 15:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep. Our goal should be to display the characters correctly. To that end, two solutions would be to use image text or a Klingon webfont, not to remove content in the Klingon alphabet. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 18:14, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Remove. I'm a Klingonist too, and I agree with Lieven here. — N-true (talk) 23:10, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Comment. I see them correctly, although I've no idea thanks to which font that is. But LLieven has a point. If most visitors will just see boxes or something else they shouldn't see, then it would be better to remove the sentences with images files. —IJzeren Jan  Uszkiełtu? 00:39, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Remove Even with Unicode-supported scripts, we don't use them if they're overly obscure. And Klingon isn't even Unicode-supported. If we want to include the script, we need images (.svg would be best). — kwami (talk) 22:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

text: That should be reverted. It is common to have BOTH text and images. -- Evertype·✆ 18:31, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal request for Klingon letters 

message: In the lead section it says that "o" is pronounced [o], i.e. closed. In the "Vowels" section, it also says: "close-mid back rounded vowel (in French eau)". But in the lead section of the German artcle it says [ɔ], meaning open as in "Tom". A German WP editor confirmed that, citing Okrand's official dictionary. Could someone look it up in the English original? -- UKoch (talk) 22:25, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Please ignore the above -- it seems the guy who translated Okrand's dictionary made a mistake. (The German WP editor I mentioned above cited the German translation, rather than the original.) -- UKoch (talk) 14:36, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI: this mistake has been corrected in this year's updated edition. -- Lieven (talk) 19:33, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation of Klingon "o" 

message: If it be fine with everyone, I would like to remove the noun rules section, since that is now covered in the klingon grammar section reH ghun ghunwI' 00:58, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say that the "Grammar-section" of this page should contain a very rough summary of how klingon rgrammar works with some examples. Anything that goes into detail (e.g. the noun rules) should move to that new Klingon grammar page. -- Lieven (talk) 19:33, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of the "Noun rules" section 

message: I believe I mentioned that before, but I'd suggest to add better, more usual klingon phrases as example phrases. Things, that people can use - even though it might even be "to day is a good day to die". It is my opinion that spoonerisms and pangrams are not a good example to represent a language. -- Lieven (talk) 19:33, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Example sentences 

message: ... are not visible (at least on my screen): . Please fix that or use a different kind to show klingon letters. -- Lieven (talk) 10:34, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Why aren't they visible on your screen? They're fine here, and I oppose changing them to try and fix some unknown problem on an unknown number of computers, instead of fixing the problem as much as we can.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:11, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right; I now tried it with different computers, different screens and different browsers. Some look better others don't. I wrote my comment right after I had had the worst case, where the brackets appeared in a very light grey, so they were almost invisible. It looks like there is no way (and no need) to fix that. -- Lieven (talk) 07:16, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  angle brackets 

message: Somebody has added several marks of citation needed... A general question of mine is: when the mark comes at the end of a paragraph of three sentences, which one does he want citation for? Next, I believe that some of the statements are common knowledge. What can I use as a source for instance for "Its vocabulary, heavily centered on Star Trek-Klingon concepts such as spacecraft or warfare, can sometimes make it cumbersome for everyday use."? Another phrase, "In the bonus material on the DVD, [...]" starts with naming the source ("on the DVD"). Isn't that enough? Anyway, I'll take care of the others, which are clear they need a source. -- Lieven (talk) 08:00, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You could try to cite all sentences then: even when there is no tag it is an improvement when an uncited statement is cited. If you can use the same source for all sentences, just replace the tag, else, just add a source for each sentence individually. The former sentence is definitely not something you should assume to be "common knowledge". You could look at Klingon for the Galactic Traveler to see if it says something like that. As for the latter, it is indeed clear what the source is, but you could also add a ref tag to it with as much info about it as you could; it is nice to have it actually show in the reference list. --JorisvS (talk) 08:42, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  citation needed 

message: Is there any encyclopedic reason to display the Klingon emblem? I think it's not necessary and makes the article look less "serious" or "encyclopedic". 
Arguments to remove: 
* As the name of the file says "Klingon High Council Emblem", this is not the symbol for the language.
* The creator of the language has never referred to this symbol being the symbol for the language.
* Other articles about languages (like french or chinese) don't show a flag either.
Arguments to keep:
* Among the speaking community, everybody recognizes this image.
* the symbol is displayed on Klingon for the galactic traveler and The Klingon Dictionary.
* constructed languages who have their own smbol, like Esperanto and Lojban do show their flag.
remove or keep?
-- Lieven (talk) 20:33, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The symbols for other conlangs are for the language.  This one is not.  It would be fine in a Klingon navbox, but not like this.  — kwami (talk) 00:14, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur. nagualdesign 00:33, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove Klingon Logo? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: * 
* Amicus Brief on Scribd, filed by Marc J. Randazza and Alex J. Shepard of Randazza Legal Group on behalf of Language Creation Society in the case of Paramount Pictures Corporation and CBS Studios, Incorporated vs. Axanar Productions, Inc. et al, case number 2:15-cv-09938-RGK-E, United States District Court, Central District of California, Document 35-1 Filed 04/27/16 Pages 1-26 Page IDs 322-347.
I have no idea how to properly cite an Amicus Brief like the one linked to above.
If the Scribd link stops working, here are some alternate links:  
* https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2819294/Klingon.txt
* https://web.archive.org/web/20160430175118/https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2819294/Klingon.txt
* https://popehat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/035-1-Brief-of-Amicus-Curiae.pdf
* https://web.archive.org/web/20160430175027/https://popehat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/035-1-Brief-of-Amicus-Curiae.pdf
If someone who is familiar with citing amicus briefs can get together with someone familiar enough with the topic to merge this in without giving WP:Undue weight to it or otherwise detracting from the existing article, please do so.
davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 17:54, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amicus brief asks if the Klingon language is eligible for copyright protection 

message: --173.72.20.241 (talk) 19:05, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Not here.  See meta:History of the Klingon Wikipedia. You may want to look at The Klingon Encyclopedia on Wikia.com for encyclopedic content in the Klingon language.  davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 02:13, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Klingon Language Version of This Article? 

message: This will display as boxes for the vast majority of Wikipedia's readership, so it'd be better to turn these into an image.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.114.146.117 (talk) 12:35, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:    

message: Season 10, episode 7  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.2.50 (talk) 20:54, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Big Bang Theory season 10 has a scene utilizing Klingon 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: :-)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.157.121.250 (talk) 04:04, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: A similar question had been asked a few lines above this one. The answer is: there had been a Klingon translation for this page at the Klingon version of Wikipedia until it was closed in 2005. That Klingon page moved to wikia.com in 2006, so you can now find it at The Klingon Encyclopedia, but it's a lot smaller than this English page -- Lieven (talk) 14:22, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Has anybody translated this article to Klingon yet? 

message: Klingon cyrllic alphabet here it is
Aa Бб Вв Гг Дд Ее Жж Зз Ии Йй Кк Ққ ₭₭ Лл Мм Нн Ңң Оо Пп Рр Сс Тт Ћћ Уу Ȳȳ Фф Хх Чч Шш Ьь Юю Яя Halloweenboy118 (talk) 23:44, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Klingon 

message: Is case necessary for Klingon and if so, how is it generated?Ghorsefield (talk) 17:29, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Case Generation 

message: somebody put a image of israel flag in the external link but i didnt mange to understand how to change it if somebody know it will help Yuvalorp (talk) 21:57, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not seeing any image of an Israeli flag, nor any link to one, in the External links section or anywhere else in the article. Please be more specific. General Ization Talk   22:04, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

text: This is the result of template vandalism. I've purged the page cache so it should be fixed now. Nardog (talk) 22:44, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  problem with the external link