Talk:Nancy Lincoln

message: Nancy Hanks is supposed to be a relative of mine, yet this article states that not much is known about her childhood!  Now I must do some serious research to understand why there isn't much known about her childhood!
:Nancy Hanks, b 25 Mar 1780, d 5 Oct 1818 , m 12 Jun 1806 to Thomas Lincoln. 
:Nancy lived with her grandmother, “Nannie”, until she went back to Virginia to live with her “aunt “ [quite possibly her real mother] Lucy Hanks Sparrow, m 1790 to Henry Sparrow. She lived with Lucy until 1795 when her aunt Elizabeth married Henry’s brother, Thomas Sparrow, then she lived with Elizabeth and Thomas until she was married to Thomas Lincoln in 1806. [Footnote1: The Lincoln Family, History of Lee County, Virginia, Anne Wyche.]
:It is not known whether Nancy was the daughter of Joseph Hanks (in wedlock) or his sister Lucy Hanks (out of wedlock)
:Gary Boyd Roberts identifies several candidates for Nancy Hanks’ parents: putative fathers include James Hanks of North Carolina, Abraham Hanks of Fauquier, Prince William and Campbell Cos., Va., Thomas Hanks of Ross & Washington Cos., Ohios, and _____ Hanks of Virginia; another possibility is a gentleman planter of Richmond co., possibly Elisha Lingan Hall. Possible mothers include Lucy Shipley, Sarah Harper, Merry Berry, ____ Berry,  and Lucy Hanks 
:{One author has proposed that Abraham Lincoln was the illegitimate son of Nancy Hanks and Abraham Enloe.}Roberts, Gary Boyd, Ancestors of American Presidents, First Authoritative Edition, 1995., p. 33. -Nunh-huh 03:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Nancy Hanks birth place is on the list of National Historic Places and is in Mineral County, WV.  That information is correct.  --71Demon 01:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nancy Hanks Birthplace 

message: How on Earth could Tom Hanks be a descendant of Nancy Hanks Lincoln?  A distant relative, maybe, but Hanks would have had to be a Lincoln, and all of Lincoln's descendants are dead.--Idols of Mud (talk) 14:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Tom Hanks

message: No trivia please. :)
7h3 3L173 (talk) 07:27, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  No trivia please 

message: I know this could be regarded as trivia but a lot of people have erroneous ideas about how Tom Hanks is related to Nancy Hanks Lincoln, the question does come up and they will do some research on the Internet and in Wikipedia.  Tom seems to be Nancy's third cousin, four times removed Geneaology.Com paragraph and Geneaology.Com Family Tree.  A 1999 Tom Hanks biography by David Gardner says that "Tom's line in the family dates back to the youngest son, John, born in 1690, a genealogical journey which took eight generations to get to the movie star."  I think the information (reliably sourced of course) should be added to the article but I can't quite figure out how/where.  Any ideas?  Shearonink (talk) 16:54, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no reason why putting the Tom Hanks item back in would be harmful to the article - we should probably leave the reference to Toy Story out, though.  That would certainly make it non-trivial and just factual.  Some feel that adding relative info about celebrities in historical (and other) aritcles is trivia just because of their popular celebrity status.  I don't agree.  As long as the info is properly referenced and written encyclopedically, that is. Lhb1239 (talk) 16:59, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a section "Notable relatives" (have to change the first title as Hanks is not a descendant.) This makes me somewhat uneasy, as it could easily turn into a trivia section in numerous articles for distant cousins. Third cousin, four times removed seems rather meaningless. If there is no better source than a blurb on Ancestry.com, it should be left out.Parkwells (talk) 20:53, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that making a specific section for the Tom Hanks reference will possibly attract trivia - but I could be wrong about this.  Time will tell if the page is watched closely for this kind of thing.  As far as the third cousin 4x removed thing.....it's not trivial to genealogists.  Aside from genealogists, however, if his last name weren't the same as Lincoln's mother, I would be more inclined to keep it out.  Then again, there are numerous biography articles (BLPs included), that list celebrity and historical figure genealogical connections throughout Wikipedia - so precedent is set.  All this considered, I don't think there's anything off or inappropriate about including the Tom Hanks info in the least.  Lhb1239 (talk) 20:58, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

text: How is Hanks not a descendant?  He's not in the direct line of Nancy Hanks, but as far as genealogists are concerned, he most certainly is a descendant of hers. Lhb1239 (talk) 21:02, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I am afraid I will have to differ with your statement.  Tom Hanks is not a descendant of Nancy Hanks Lincoln, directly or otherwise, he is a relative/cousin of hers.  They have a ancestor in common from the 1600/1700s, but any claims/assertions about their relatedness should be scrupulously sourced since Mr. Hanks is a living person and biographies of living persons parameters would apply in this case. --Shearonink (talk) 21:09, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Being fairly knowledgeable about this particular subject, I will also disagree with you (respectfully, of course).  Tom Hanks is a descendant of the Hanks line, ergo, he is a descendant of Nancy Hanks through their common ancestor, John Hanks (b. 1728).  Again, one not need be a direct-line descendant to be considered a descendant.  Lhb1239 (talk) 21:33, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Most people would say a commonly-accepted definition of "descendant" is that one would have to in direct bloodline descendant to be considered such a person.  Mr Hanks would indeed be a descendant of the Hanks family line but Nancy Hanks herself is not a direct ancestor of his.  In any case, before adding any statements to the article about relatedness they would have to be scrupulously sourced and explained (whatever terms are used) owing to BLP concerns.  Shearonink (talk) 21:53, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Having done much genealogical research, I agree with Shearonink, and we need to use a widely understood meaning here.  Tom Hanks is not a descendant of Nancy Hanks, but a collateral relative. Only direct descendants are descendants. They may both be descendants of John Hanks, but that does not make Tom Hanks a descendant of Nancy. Ancestry.com does not claim that he is, or whatever the website was. Also, there is material in BLP articles that is not well sourced, and that is not a precedent we want to follow or encourage.  This is not supposed to read like a fan magazine.Parkwells (talk) 22:16, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

text: Many BLP articles for celebrities have a fan magazine quality to them, in my opinion, and often quote extensively from them. That is what I'm referring to.Parkwells (talk) 22:32, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tom Hanks 

message: Per this edit... The Cemetery is referred to as the  "Nancy Hanks Lincoln Cemetery" by the National Park Service per present Ref#6/here.  Not sure that Graveyards.com is a reliable source... yes, I can see in the Graveyard.Com photo that there is a sign stating "Pioneer Cemetery" but that doesn't mean that this is actually the Cemetery's known name, officially or otherwise. --Shearonink (talk) 20:42, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at various sources online, the cemetery is, indeed, called "Pioneer Cemetery". This would make sense, especially since there are Little Pigeon Creek pioneers buried there (my ancestors among them, BTW ;-). The NPS may call it "Nancy Hanks Lincoln Cemetery" for publicity and tourism purposes, but from everything I've seen, it's official name is Pioneer Cemetery. but...I'll look into this further. (and don't forget verifiability over truth - I suppose in this case, that verifiability may go both ways) Lhb1239 (talk) 20:54, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the reminder but I do think that I already know the Wikipedia guideline of verifiability not truth.  Source the name/names as necessary/required, it might be appropriate to refer to it as "Pioneer Cemetery/Nancy Hanks Lincoln Cemetery" since it is referred to in printed reliable sources by both names.  It might be known as "Pioneer Cemetery" within the local area and there are at least 30 known graves at this location (only a few of which are associated with the Lincoln family) but I would think that most readers will come to the name through the Lincoln connection. Shearonink (talk) 21:15, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm starting to "hear" increased snippiness in the tone of your replies - and, frankly, in the interest of AGF, I just don't see the need for it.  If you want to discuss, fine - discuss.  But please, in the interest of cooperative editing, let's leave the "attitude" out.  Okay?  As far as the definition of what a genealogical descendant is, sorry, but you're incorrect.  Lhb1239 (talk) 22:03, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If I'm incorrect, ok, I am fine with that.  In the other section I was only trying to give the commonly-accepted understanding of what a "direct descendant' is.  I did do some research on the geneaological term and what I found at this Geneaological Dictionary stated that a descendant is "A person who is an offspring, however remote, of a certain ancestor or family", I took that to mean a bloodline descendant of a person or in a direct family-line.  Like I said, if I'm wrong about the term, that's fine. --Shearonink (talk) 22:19, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Lhb, it would be useful for you to find a sourced definition for your assertion, as it's not one I've seen in 15 years of genealogical research. The 2004 American Heritage College Dictionary first definition of "descendant" is: "A person, an animal, or a plant whose descent can be traced to a particular individual or group." Nancy Hanks and Tom Hanks are both descendants of John Hanks; they are both descendants of the "Hanks line," but Tom Hanks is not a descendant of Nancy Hanks, as he cannot be traced back directly to her. He is descended from a different ancestor in the John Hanks line.Parkwells (talk) 22:26, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cemetery name 

message: The information I added on Lucy and Nancy Hanks and the Sparrows is a placeholder, as I'm uneasy about the website as an RS. Am looking for other reliable sources on her life.Parkwells (talk) 22:29, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Generally WP policy is to put citations at the end of sentences, rather than in the middle, unless there is a compelling reason to do so. I don't think anything in this article is so controversial as to require cites for phrases.Parkwells (talk) 15:44, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: One way in which I see it being neccessary is if a specific fact/statement needs a reference.  The are instances when references given aren't clear-cut and immediately obvious as relating to article text.  So.....do we write Wikipedia text to fit the reference or provide a reference that fits the text perfectly?  Or do we provide a reference inline so that a reader checking the reference isn't confused?  Wikipedia is supposed to be written for readers, is it not? Lhb1239 (talk) 15:50, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's my understanding that "inline cite" includes those put at the end of the sentence. I believe it refers to having the source information there with the sentence in the edit mode, rather than having just a footnote number, with all source information in another location when in edit mode. If you feel the cite was critical to a particular phrase, you're welcome to put it back.Parkwells (talk) 13:07, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Inline citations

message: Regarding the State Resolutions in the Honors section, I see that the resolution was passed, but I haven't seen where it was voted upon and resolved. 
In November 2008, the Mineral County Historical Society and the Mineral County Historic Landmarks Commission officially recognized the researched site of the birthplace of Nancy Hanks in Mineral County, West Virginia, which was first identified in 1929. They had a memorial placed at the site.[42]
On February 12, 2009, on the bicentennial of the birth of Abraham Lincoln, the West Virginia House of Delegates passed a resolution recognizing Nancy Hanks Lincoln for her contributions and her birth site in Mineral County, West Virginia.[42]
The State Resolution link is for the Introduced (and not final, passed bill). Is there evidence that this was passed in the WV Senate (Senate Resolution #6) and House Resolution #7 were passed?--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:08, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops! I was thrown by the "Introduced" at the top of the web page - and searched but could not find voting and resolution info -- but I see now that the text is more than the Introduced text and does include notes about the resolution. Sorry for the confusion! (Since it's best not to remove content from a talk page, I thought I'd let it stand - and close out with my Ooops!)--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:15, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  West Virginia State Resolutions 

message: It is seeming to me that the solid historical sources since 1980 do not find that Nancy Hanks' mother was a Shipley, and is not a direct relative of Richard Berry. What is troubling me, though, is that the Lincoln Homestead State Park identifies Nancy Hanks as a relative of the Shipleys and Berrys. It seems that Nancy's mother was Lucy Hanks, based upon Abraham Lincoln's comments, Dennis Hank's concern about Nancy Hanks being called "Hanks" and being "base-born", and the way in which Elizabeth and Thomas Sparrow were closely connected with the family through moves, births, etc. In other words: Nancy Hanks is an illegitimate child of Lucy Hanks, daughter of Joseph and Ann Lee Hanks and niece of Elizabeth Hanks Sparrow. 
Am I missing something?
Is there a way that Nancy Hanks really is related to the Shipleys and/or Berrys from a verifiable, reliable historical source (i.e., not sources that are essentially genealogy based versus strong historical based)?  Thanks a bunch!--CaroleHenson (talk) 07:55, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a work still in progress, but I started the Nancy Hanks Lincoln heritage article to explore these issues in a bit greater detail, with the intent of pulling in more info about Kentucky heritage sites that played a role in Nancy Hanks Lincoln's background. There's so much out there about this topic, if I'm taking some wrong turns or not exploring an aspect deeply enough, please let me know.--CaroleHenson (talk) 17:57, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shipley / Berry connection 

message: I've been having a hard time finding conclusive information about when Nancy may have lived with the Berrys - and under what capacity.
There are two periods of time where I'm unclear about where Nancy lived:
* Between 1793 and 1796, since I get the impression that Henry Sparrow wasn't very excited about having Nancy live with them. I wonder if she could have really lived with Lucy and Henry Sparrow from 1793 (grandfather's death) until 1796 (Elizabeth's marriage).
* Time at the Berrys before her marriage to Thomas Lincoln. It seems that she must have been there for at least several months during the courtship period, but I'm having a hard time figuring out conclusively when she began living with the Berrys.
Am I missing anything here about Nancy's timeline, including these unclear periods?  Thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 08:02, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a work still in progress, but I started the Nancy Hanks Lincoln heritage article to explore these issues in a bit greater detail, with the intent of pulling in more info about Kentucky heritage sites that played a role in Nancy Hanks Lincoln's background. There's so much out there about this topic, if I'm taking some wrong turns or not exploring an aspect deeply enough, please let me know. Thanks!!--CaroleHenson (talk) 17:57, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nancy Hanks time at the Berrys 

message: I happened upon this article while looking for information on Tom Hanks.  Before my first edit here, I thought I'd look at the talk page and see what's been changed and discussed about changes recently.  Then, after looking at the most recent comments, I looked at the editing history and see practically one editor has transformed this article very recently.  I have to say: great job, CaroleHenson!  I hope you don't mind that I have (and will) changed a few things here and there in the area of style and wording.  I promise to not make major changes to the article that would compromise what you've so well and carefully done here.  Great research and inclusions.  Precisely the kind of additions and changes a Wikipedia article needs in order to make it a quality piece.  Kudos! Winkelvi (talk) 02:24, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, thanks! Yes, edits are very much appreciated -- I'm sometimes so deep in the weeds initially that I miss editing errors until I've been away from it for several days. Thanks so much!--CaroleHenson (talk) 12:34, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Great looking article! 

message: I am curious why Adin Baber's research and theory that Nancy Hanks was the daughter of Abraham Hanks and Sarah Harper (mother Elizabeth Shipley) was not represented here.  
Baber's book,  Nancy Hanks, of undistinguished families; a genealogical, biographical, and historical study of the ancestry of the mother of Abraham Lincoln .. (1960) is an open source book at the Library of Congress. 
I have been using an online ancestry program to map and document Baber's research and it appears to be very précise (digital documentation matches up) and provides explanations that connect the dots of controversy (who is related to whom, communication misunderstandings, clarity about some statements (e.g. Abraham Lincoln stating he should have been named "Abraham Abraham" which could refer to Abrahams on both sides of his family).
I spent some time reading various books and literature and Baber's work is far above the rest and in fact is included in the Lincoln Presidential Library.
My question therefore is, did the author of this article read this resource and make an analytical decision to disregard it or has this information not been reviewed?
I do have to tell you that I am a descendant of Abraham Hanks of whom Baber concludes is the father of Nancy Hanks, but only learned of this connection through online research and have been working to prove or disprove it.  It is an honor if it is true; however, most importantly it needs to be proven. I believe Baber's book does this. 
Thank You Lizardrath (talk) 23:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Viable Theories 

message: I just learned that Nancy Brooner is my 4x great grandmother and was surprised to find that she's buried next to Nancy Lincoln. There seems to be some discrepancy, though, over who died when. A lot of people list Nancy Brooner as dying on September 20, 1818 and Nancy Lincoln dying on October 5, 1818. 
But I stumbled across this quote from Nancy Brooner's son, Reverend Allen Brooner on his 60th birthday. This is a quote from the Dale Weekly Reporter, Dec 21, 1897, page 12. 
"At the time of Grandma Brooner's sickness, Lincoln's mother visited her. At least Grandma told her she was going to die. Mrs. Lincoln said 'don't talk that way for I may die before you.' Sure enough, she died 2 weeks before. They lay beside each other inside the same railing at Lincoln City."
So according to Nancy Brooner's own son, she died after Nancy Lincoln. 
Not crucial information to the story, but important nonetheless.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by July1962 (talk • contribs) 22:49, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Order of deaths: Nancy Lincoln and Nancy Brooner 

message: SO,I WAS THINKING,LIKE THOMAS LINCOLN YOU GUYS SHOULD PUT A RELATIONSHIP WITH ABRAHAM.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:7:1180:A21:5104:38AB:4393:F15C (talk) 22:17, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a bit confused. The relationship is stated in the first sentence of the article, the infobox and throughout the article. What specifically do you think needs to be done?--CaroleHenson (talk) 23:07, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  relationship 

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thread_title:  External links modified