Talk:Charvaka

message: Radhakrishnan viewed Carvaka as orthodox vedantin. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:24, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Further notes

message: Ogress: I checked Karl Potter, and there is no mention at all of "Haribhadra, from circa the seventh century, considers Carvaka school as a part of six orthodox schools of Hinduism in his book, Shaddarsana-samuccaya", on pages 435-436 or anywhere else. I have removed it from the lead, though you added it here. It needs a source, as this fringe claim is simply very different than the widely accepted scholarly view on Carvakas. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't add those sources, I took one giant REF tag full of stuff and split it into individual REFs, placing statements from that tag directly into the text. I attest to no truth of the matter and I agree. I literally just separated it into separate tags and/or put sentences onto the page so problematic things like this could be found. Thank you. As for the Sarvadarśanasaṃgraha, is there some reason we aren't citing onto the quote but rather putting the REF before it? That seems like a weird decision? I changed the text to Sarvadarśanasaṃgraha for technical reasons but I erred in changing the content of that quote: my apologies for that oversight. I do a lot of wikignome and errors do happen. Ogress smash! 17:26, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Haribhadra and Carvaka 

message: Both spellings are in use in reliable sources (see, for example, KK Chakrabarti (1995), Definition and Induction: A Historical and Comparative Study, University of Hawaii Press, , page 141). Lets keep both spellings in the article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:30, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? Ogress smash! 23:56, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Because both spellings are in use in reliable sources. Why pick one spelling, why pick a side? Is there a wikipedia policy or guideline page that requires this? I am fine with either spelling, and have no particular preference for the title being Cārvāka or Carvaka. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:09, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Cārvāka is the vṛddhi or patronymic form of Carvaka (i.e., Cārvāka can mean "of or related to or descending from Carvaka"), just as Vāsudeva is the vṛddhi form of Vasudeva. The latter (Carvaka), unfortunately, is also the diacritic-free form. So we must be careful in a given instance *both* whether that source is using the "ancestor" or "descendent" form, and whether that source is using IAST/marked-up spellings at all. Shreevatsa (talk) 14:42, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The editor has a point. Also, who is picking a side? I'm just organising the spelling. What "side"? Is there some war going on? I'm trying to prevent confusion. Ogress smash! 15:55, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cārvāka and Carvaka 

message: @Mohanbhan: You tagged "The origins of Cārvāka can be traced to the Rigveda" for citation needed here. The source is clearly provided at the end of that sentence. I checked, and it is in the first paragraph of the referenced Radhakrishnan's book on page 227. The chapter is titled Carvaka, and the second sentence reads, "Its origin can be traced as far back as the Rg veda...". Concerns? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:37, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @Sarah Welch, I had removed original research in which dictionary meanings were provided to explain the meaning of Carvaka and Lokayata. OR as you know very well is not acceptable. When I had cited the reason for removal with a link to WP:NOR, that is when my deletion was in accordance with wiki policy, you should not have reverted those. You are clearly indulging in disruptive edits and edit-warring and then going on the offensive by asking me not to edit war. This is not done. You should have discussed the changes on the talk page before resorting to disruptive edits. I had deleted nothing from the article except repetitions and had just reordered content to elucidate the meaning of Carvaka philosophy. Your only point seems to be to show that it is part of Hinduism and that it is not antagonistic to the Vedas. It is clear to me that you are pushing a POV and spoiling the article. Please don't do it. -Mohanbhan (talk) 02:02, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Once again, just like Radhakrishnan's book above on Rig Veda, you are refusing to check Natalia Isaeva's book (Shankara and Indian Philosophy, 1993, SUNY Press, ) which is referenced at the end of the paragraph. On page 27, footnote 18, she explains the etymological origin of Carvaka as sweet talker, and Lokayata as worldly. But you deleted it again. I am puzzled. I will give you some time to explain you action or concern, before I reinstate that well sourced content. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:12, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Natalia Isaeva's book is on Shankara who was clearly antagonistic to Carvaka philosophy; so the etymology of Carvaka as sweet talkers is not "well sourced content". As I said, for an article on Carvaka we have rely on expert studies on the subject and Chattopadhyaya, a renowned expert, offers a different etymology for Carvaka. That could be added to the article. -Mohanbhan (talk) 02:32, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @Mohanbhan: That is not a reasonable explanation. "The book @Mohanbhan likes" is not Wikipedia's definition of RS. Natalia Isaeva's book is a reliable scholarly source. FWIW, you mentioned Bhattacharya's book on this talk page as a source for Carvaka/Lokayata. Have you read it? On pages 166-167, it discusses etymology of Carvaka and cites Monier Williams? Isaeva and Bhattacharya books both support the paragraph you deleted more than once.  your thoughts? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:47, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Again quoting selectively in order to deceive the community. Here is the link to the said page. Is Bhattacharya supporting that etymology? He is discussing many etymologies, and he is calling this particular derivation "an irregular construction" and that it is "definitely not known whether the word caru is to be taken as an adjective (meaning agreeable, pleasant, etc) or as a noun (which is another name of Brihaspati)" Why would you add such a problematic derivation? And why would you select only this from among the many derivations that he is discussing? It is clear to me that you are pushing a POV. -Mohanbhan (talk) 03:10, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

text: I am sorry you jumped the gun and added that problematic etymology while we were still discussing it. You are picking and choosing from many etymologies, not me. You are violating the NPOV, not me. -Mohanbhan (talk) 03:34, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is you have not added "a summary from Bhattacharya", it is evident from the above link. You have picked and added a particular (problematic) etymology to push a POV. That is not OK. -Mohanbhan (talk) 03:38, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @Mohanbhan: in your latest revert here, where you deleted, "Bhattacharya notes that the word Carvaka is of irregular construction, as cara as an adjective means "agreeable, pleasant", but as a noun is another name of Brihaspati, and both derivations are plausible." (Bhattacharya (2011), page 166). Please explain your concern. Alternatively, suggest a different etymological summary from Bhattacharya. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:41, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @Sarah Welch: My concern is clearly stated above. It is a problematic etymology and doesn't clarify anything. Bhattacharya also states, "All the derivations proposed are plausible in so far as the formation of the word is admitted to be irregular." Carvaka, as I have already stated, is not a word that the Lokayatas gave themselves; it is derogatory label given to them by their opponents. This is stated in Chattopadhyaya which you, for some strange reason, call a primary source. It is a secondary source and the chief source of reference for the IEP article on Lokayata/Carvaka. This article too mentions the accepted etymology, "Literally, "Lokāyata" means philosophy of the people." Etymology is quoted to clarify and extend the meaning of a concept, not to distort it. May I know your reasons for wanting to add a problematic etymology? -Mohanbhan (talk) 04:06, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

text: @Sarah Welch: You are deliberately distorting Chattopadhayay's standing and stature as an expert of Lokayata philosophy to suit your purposes. His work is not "dated", Bhattacharya considers him the greatest authority on the subject. You disregard him as "strange" and problematic and try to include an etymology that Bhattacharya himself concedes is not definitive. You have avoided Chattopadhyaya because he offers what you think are problematic perspectives on the topic; if that is your rationale for excluding content why do want to add an etymology which is decidedly problematic? Either you include all "problematic" content or you include none--you cannot be selective about including problematic content. -Mohanbhan (talk) 04:52, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree completely with Mohanbhan. Sarah Welch comes across as a Vedantin based on my interaction with her on the talk page of Adi Shankara. I am disturbed by her repeated denunciation of Chattopadhyaya as an authority despite my showing her peer reviewed philosophical material which accepts him as an authority. In my opinion people who have a strong affiliation with the Vedanta philosophy do not have a neutral point of view when it comes to the Lokayata/Charvaka philosophy and for this reason should refrain from editing this page. Soham321 (talk) 05:12, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tagging and edits by User:Mohanbhan 

message: : You have reverted my deletion of Carvaka etymology stating that "considering it was already there it should not have been removed." Is that your argument: something that is in the article should not be removed even if it is problematic? I have quoted WP:NOR that adding dictionary definitions to interpret the meaning of a concept constitutes original research. I have discussed why a book on Sankara cannot be used to source content for an article on Carvaka. I have also stated how Carvaka was a derogatory appellation given to the Lokayatas and that it was not a name that they accepted. Are these reasons not valid enough to merit the removal of the etymology according to you? Does this exercise of discussing mean nothing to you that you just go ahead and revert a well-reasoned and well-discussed deletion? You might be a senior editor but that doesn’t give you the right to override wiki policy—or does it?  Why couldn’t you discuss before reverting? -Mohanbhan (talk) 14:20, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering that the article is titled Cārvāka, having its etymology is useful. The section now includes a variety of plausible etymologies for the word and I've tweaked it further in my last edit. If you have any other plausible etymologies from a reliable source which are not included, then please include them. Going by your discussions above, I believe these already cover the ones mentioned by Bhattacharya and Chattopadhyaya.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 18:06, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cpt.a.haddock’s edits  

message: *https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Abecedare&diff=670310573&oldid=670252668
*https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Joshua_Jonathan&diff=670303322&oldid=670302373
,  Sorry i had to mention this before this gets out of hand. Based on their editing on the talk page of Adi_Shankara, and elsewhere, the two editors Sara had approached to take a look at this page (in particular study the editing of a particular editor on this page) have the same philosophical affiliation (towards the Vedanta philosophy of Adi Shankara) as Sarah. Soham321 (talk) 15:09, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @Soham321: Respect WP:TALKNO. The applicable guideline there, "Do not use this talk page as a forum or soapbox. Do not make ad hominem attacks." Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:42, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You need to respect WP:CANVASS. Please read your edits at the links i gave. They constitute blatant canvassing, particularly given your interaction with these two editors (whom you approached) in the past. Soham321 (talk) 15:46, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @Sarah Welch: Who is making ad hominem attacks? The two links provided by Soham321 speak for themselves? Why did you mention my name here on this talk page for adding request tags? What is wrong in seeking citation? And why are you going around to making ad hominem attacks on me? This is not done. -Mohanbhan (talk) 15:49, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Ms Sarah Welch didn't ask to take a look at this page; she asked how to deal with the unpleasant behavior of the two of you. That's a wise rsesponse. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:14, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canvassing 

message: Why is the early period labeled Bṛhaspatya and not Bārhaspatya? The regular vṛddhi is the latter, meaning "of or concerning Bṛhaspati" and appears in the dictionaries. The former is not a form I'm familiar with and does not appear (either as brihaspatya or brhaspatya) in the basic NGRAM i ran here. Ogress smash! 17:53, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @Ogress: Indeed. Bhattacharya uses Bārhaspatya, if I remember correctly, in chapters 1 and 2 of his book Studies on the Carvaka/Lokayata in the article. Note though, that for unclear reasons, this source uses Bṛhaspatya (2nd para, at the end). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:19, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification on the name Bṛhaspatya 

message: The entire 'Pleasure' section and also a portion of the 'Etymology' section contains information about the alleged hedonism subscribed to by the Charvaka philosophers. I will just point out that this charge of hedonism has been strongly refuted by Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya in his book 'Lokayata'. Chattopadhyaya frames his argument based on information about the Charvakas present in the Mahabharata, where an individual called 'Charvaka' is voicing an opinion which clearly does not indicate a philosophy of hedonism; and, also the fact that all the information that we have about the Charvakas are known not through their writings but from the writings of their philosophical opponents. With respect to the Barhaspatya sutras, Chattopadhyaya argues that many of the sutras in this text are spurious (consisting of interpolations in the original text) and not representative of original Charvaka philosophy. This point about the Barhaspatya sutras containing spurious material (consisting of interpolations) has also been made by S.N. Dasgupta in his 'History of Indian Philosophy'. Chattopadhyay's  views on the alleged Charvaka hedonism, and also the views of other scholars who agree with this view, can be included in the main article. (I don't have Chattopadhyay's book Lokayata with me right now so i am unable to include this information in the main page.) Soham321 (talk) 20:52, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @Soham321: This article has a section on Controversy, which includes the controversy on hedonism charges, summarized from Bhattacharya. Lets stick with Bhattacharya because his is a more recent source, and because Chattopadhyaya publications, for reasons cogently explained above, were tainted by his Marxist/Communist ideology, and must be considered with care and cross checked recent scholarly publications. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:19, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @Sarah Welch: Stop using the word "tainted", as already discussed that charge could be made about anyone including Bhattacharya (Marxism) and Radhakrishnan (Vedantism). You still haven't added the Carvaka roots bit to the Rigveda article. May I know why? And why are you intent on mentioning it only here? -Mohanbhan (talk) 02:38, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hedonism 

message: I would like to see views of some of the major philosophers of ancient and medieval India on the Charvaka philosophy in the main page of the article. A detailed description of the very well known 8th century Vedanta philosopher Adi Shankara's  views on the Charvaka philosophy are to be found in Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya's books Lokayata and What is living and what is dead in Indian philosophy. Just to give you some idea, this is Adi Shankara writing on the Charvaka/Lokayata philosophy: Soham321 (talk) 21:33, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @Soham321: Do you have page number of the Chattopadhyaya book, and historical text or verse he cites for each major philosopher? Chattopadhyaya publications, for reasons cogently explained above, were tainted by his Marxist/Communist ideology, and must be considered with care and in the light of recent scholarly publications. I oppose addition of any text from Chattopadhyaya that is not verifiable, or nor specific enough for scholars to check and comment. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:19, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  ,  This is the wikipedia page of D.D. Kosambi. It clearly tells you that he was a Marxist. Now this is the wikipedia page about the famous Harvard Oriental Series. Please note carefully who are described as 'Author'  of Volume 42 of the Harvard Oriental Series. It is true that this text is actually a sanskrit text which has been edited by Kosambi and Gokhale. However, it has a long introduction by Kosambi. If its ok for Harvard to accept Marxist scholarship, why is it not ok for you?    Soham321 (talk) 02:48, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

text: @Sarah Welch: Nothing has been explained "cogently". Do not make unfounded allegations. Assume good faith, focus on content and do not speculate on the motivations and ideologies of philosophers. -Mohanbhan (talk) 02:45, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I do not see Sarah Welch engaging in unfounded allegations, not assuming good faith or not focusing on content. Ogress smash! 03:23, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Chattopadhyaya publications... were tainted by his Marxist/Communist ideology" is unfounded allegation, not assuming good faith and not focusing on the content suggested for inclusion. Materialism is a mainstream scientific ideology which questions supernatural claims. This page is on ancient Indian materialism. If Adi Sankara has made derogatory comments about Lokayata from his transcendental perspective that must be reflected in this article. Trashing the source as ideologically "tainted" when it is widely acknowledged as one of the most comprehensive studies on the subject is an unfounded allegation and an irrational and prejudiced attack on Chattopadhayay's scholarship. -Mohanbhan (talk) 03:41, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

text: WP:AGF is about users, not sources. We evaluate the reliability of sources constantly. As has been discussed, it is important neither to dismiss a scholar's contributions nor to ignore whatever ideological baggage they bring to the table. His commitment to the Marxist project was the origin of his interest in the subject, and we have scholars who note where that bias has affected his analysis. Scholarship isn't an on-off button; we don't have to reject Chattopadhyaya, we just have to be careful we're not using material that has been seriously criticised. This is no different than when we examined the work of British scholars of the same period with a critical eye because of their capitalist, colonial, racist views of India. We still use those scholars' work in many cases; we just use it carefully and note where it has been criticised for being colonialist, racist or capitalist. Wikipedia is neither for nor against a communist paradigm; our guidelines urge us to be neutral and call out problematic scholarship. That sometimes means including critical voices, such as Larson's counter to Chattopadhyaya's theory of agricultural, matriarchal mutterrecht as not representing any actual period of Indian history and being based entirely on his political agenda for India. Other times it means using material that has consensus. This isn't an anti-Communist fusillade, it's normal WP procedure. Ogress smash! 07:16, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody has any objection to sources being "evaluated" but this evaluation cannot be original research, as Abecedare also pointed out in a discussion. Calling Chattopadhyaya's work "tainted" is to make a very huge claim and pass judgement over his entire corpus--these words come out of sheer prejudice and they must be avoided. Larson appreciates Chattopadhyaya for his scholarship and also disagrees with him here and there; he does not diss Chattopadhyaya's scholarship like Sarah Welch has repeatedly done here. This is a matter of great concern. Stigmatizing a scholar, in fact one of India's greatest philosophers, for his political views, and calling his work "tainted" is not acceptable. Political intolerance and discrimination (for being Marxist or gay) is definitely not acceptable on wikipedia. Every scholar agrees and disagrees with an earlier scholar's work, this doesn't make the earlier scholar's work invalid, "dated" or "tainted." And we must not forget that Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya was not just a scholar or historian, he was a philosopher, and philosophers, because they make epistemological, metaphysical and hermeneutic claims from specific philosophical standpoints, their views cannot be refuted the way a factual statement can be refuted by showing evidence to the contrary. A philosopher does not become "dated" insofar as he is making philosophical and hermeneutic claims. And Chattopadhyaya, in interpreting Rigvedic, Buddhist and Post-Vedic texts, is making hermeneutic claims. One can disagree with an interpretation but one cannot refute it absolutely and say it is wrong. If philosophers could become "dated" Plato, Aristotle, Spinoza, Nietzsche -- all of these philosophers would be "dated". But if they are not dated it is because it is perfectly legitimate to hold their views and be a Platonist, Aristotelian, Spinozist or Nietzschen today. So a wikipedia editor cannot cite paltry or even serious disagreements of a later scholar and claim the philosopher is "dated" or call his philosophy and scholarship "tainted". These are prejudiced views and constitute hate speech, and hate speech is not OK on wikipedia. -Mohanbhan (talk) 08:23, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Views of major Indian philosophers 

message: The main article is saying: "Ajita Kesakambali is credited as the forerunner of the Carvakas." A very clear distinction between the views of Ajita Kesakambali's views and Charvaka views have been made by Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya in his 1991 book History of Science and Technology in Ancient India Volume 2: Formation of the Theoretical Fundamentals of Natural Science and also in his 1977 book 'Science and Society in Ancient India'. Although both Kesakambli and Charvakas accept materialism, and deny the existence of God, because of which their views appear similar the difference in philosophy between Ajit and Charvakas springs from the fact that Ajit subscribes to the doctrine of 'yadrccha vada' according to Chattopadhyaya while Charvakas accept  'svabhava vada'. Both svabhava vada and yadrccha svabhava have been mentioned and described as two distinct theories in the Upanishads (as puva paksa--the view of the opponent). Chattopadhyaya explains the difference between svabhava vada and yadrccha vada by saying that the former is the doctrine of 'sheer chance' (called yadrccha or akasmikatva); according to this doctrine, pure accident is the ultimate cause. In contrast, svabhava vada is translated by Chattopadhyaya to mean 'doctrine of nature' or 'naturalism'. Comments Chattopadhyaya:
Besides Kesakambli, Chattopadhyaya gives the views of five other individuals--including Makkhali Gosala--all of who, he argues, subscribed to the view of yadrccha vada. The names of these six heretics, together with a brief description of their views, may be seen in this article on Buddhism (these five are believed to have been contemporaries of the Buddha):Six Heretics.
Given this fact, i am removing from the main article the sentence "Ajita Kesakambali is credited as the forerunner of the Carvakas."
Soham321 (talk) 22:19, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I just realized that i might be doing Original Research if i delete sourced content. I think the thing to do is to just plug in the views of those who believe Ajita Kesakambli and  the other five skeptics and heretics who were contemporaries of the Buddha had a philosophy which was similar to Charvaka philosophy but with a distinct difference since these skeptics subscribed to yadrccha vada while Charvakas subscribed to svabhava vada. Soham321 (talk) 22:22, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Kesakambli being a forerunner for carvaka philosophy is well-supported by the cited ref and may be the level of detail needed for this article. However, if someone is interested, there is justification for writing a Materialism in Indian philosophy article, which can compare the various materialist schools and philosophers in further details. Abecedare (talk) 22:53, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is well established that Kesakamblin was a contemporary of the Buddha. But as i pointed out earlier, there is speculation that Charvaka views are to be found in the Upanishads and these precede the Buddha. And that means Kesakamblin was not the immediate forerunner of the Charvakas. At any rate, i would insist on applying the disclaimer 'according to Ramakrishna Bhattcharya' or 'according to some scholars' if you wish to retain this and of course the mention of the counter-view that Charvaka views are believed to be present in the Upanishads according to some scholars (in the form of purva paksa or view of the opponent). I would also suggest that since this material is disputed amongst the scholars it should not be present in the lead.  Soham321 (talk) 23:46, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

text: I appreciate your suggestion of a 'Materialism in Indian Philosophy' article, but such an article has to make a clear distinction between svabhava-vada and yadrccha vada. Personally, i think there needs to be a separate article on svabhava-vada since it is well established that Charvakas subscribed to this view. Additionally, the Sankhya philosophers--who were also atheists--subscribed to this view of svabhava-vada.   Soham321 (talk) 23:50, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Ajit Kesakambli not being a Charvaka 

message: In the Epistemology section, there are a lot of inaccuracies in my opinion. One of the reasons for this is undue importance is being given to this paper: MM Kamal (1998), The Epistemology of the Carvaka Philosophy, Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies, 46(2): 13-16. If you actually read this paper you will find that the author is a graduate student.  It is strange that this talk of two different kinds of perception is being discussed by a graduate student while scholars considered specialists on Charvaka philosophy do not make this distinction. The whole paper also gives the impression of a confused mind. I think we need to find better sources for this section. Soham321 (talk) 02:46, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @Soham321: It is peer reviewed publication, and meets wikipedia's RS guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 06:39, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read Undue. Thank you. Soham321 (talk) 09:38, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Epistemology 

message: just wanted to clarify that the terms anvaya and vyatireka are used by Jayanta Bhatta in his Nyaya Manjari when he frames and puts forward the argument connecting food with consciousness. The relevant extract from the Nyaya Manjari has been given by Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya in his What is Living and What is Dead in Indian Philosophy. Soham321 (talk) 12:06, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anvaya and Vyatireka 

message: I think this article will do well to have a section that explicitly lists some of the main primary sources of our current knowledge on Charvakas. We may even separate the sources as those that explicitly mention or deal with Charvaka views, and those sources where we need to infer a viewpoint as being those of a Charvaka. Candidates may include works like Sarva Darshan Samgraha by Madhavacharya. We may also have a separate list that gives the works that we know were written by Charvakas, but are now lost. As it stands, the Origin section is vague and rambling. Manoguru (talk) 09:48, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: @Manoguru: Indeed, including names of known primary sources on Charvakas would improve the article. That should go into the Works sections, not Origin section. Madhavacharya is already mentioned in that section. If you have additional reliable source on Charvaka original works, please add. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:34, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  A section on sources

message: Please explain why you are deleting Rigveda, with the edit comment Nasadiya Sukta. This Sukta is in Rigveda. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:19, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: @Ms Sarah Welch:That hymn itself does not define charvaka philosophy but reflects early agnostic thought rather than atheism or materialism. Yes, that sukta is in rigveda but the hymn is late within rigveda, which is not mentioned. Same hymn could be used to point out agnosticism in Jainism or Buddhism but it would not be accurate. It would be appropriate to add "late Vedic-period" or Śramaṇa movement as Charvaka flourished along side Jainism and Buddhism.117.192.216.201 (talk) 04:49, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Will you be happy if we add late Vedic period along side Rigveda, in that section? This article already mentions flourished along side Ājīvika, Jainism and Buddhism. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 05:00, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: @Ms Sarah Welch: It would be appropriate to add Śramaṇa movement rather than Rigveda since there is no particular hymn in Rigveda that refutes the Vedas itself or proposes materialism as valid thought. Since we only know about their existence through Jain, Buddhist and later Hindu texts, Śramaṇa movement would be appropriate. This is also keeping in mind that it belongs to nāstika school of thought rather than āstika. 117.192.216.148 (talk) 17:15, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

text: @Ms Sarah Welch: I don't have any personal prejudice regarding this topic. I looked at the source but there was no mention about Rigveda but even if we consider Sukta hymn to be important aspect of early agnostic thought then we still need to add "Late Vedic-period" along side Rigveda like you mention before as it's late within Rigveda. Most sources i found in google books connect Charvaka school to Sarmana movement, which flourished during late vedic period. 117.192.216.148 (talk) 23:09, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: User at @117.192.216.*: I have reworded it, and added a source. We can't write "late Vedic period" as that is vague and can mislead the reader. The Sukta is likely from ~1000 BCE, while Vedic period continued for few more centuries. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:34, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits by @117.192.216.201 

message: / @151.67.*.*: You re-arranged the lead with this edit, you deleted this well supported sentence from the lead: "It is considered an example of atheistic schools in the Hindu tradition", and you introduced unsourced commentary (WP:OR) into the lead. Please explain your concerns and sources that support your changes. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:29, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes to the lead 

message: * Was the Original Lokāyata a ‘Live-in-the-Present’ Spiritualistic School?: An Alternative Perspective--Nizil (talk) 19:56, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  New studies