Talk:Iolanthe

message: I changed the last sentence of the intro to weaken the claims made, so I don't think it needs a citation any more.   It is a fact that many "G&S fans" (as opposed to the theatregoing public, who are most familiar with the "big 3") think Iolanthe is the best G&S work.   This is confirmed by what I would call "mountains of anecdotal evidence" and also by some "polls" taken over the years on Savoynet, the international G&S discussion list (admittedly not a scientifically selected sample of G&S fans).   Also, I don't know of anyone who *doesn't* like Iolanthe.   It's in everyone's top several, at least.  It is just a well-written show.   The dialogue and music are consistently engaging, without any "slow" parts of the show.  BTW, Iolanthe is not MY favorite (I like Yeomen and Pirates best), and of course it could be said of some of the others that "many G&S fans" like it the best.   I think, also, that if you examine the libretto and the score of Iolanthe, as compared with the lib. and scores of the other G&S operas, you will not see a better balanced work, in terms of balance between the male and female characters, the music and the dialogue, the slow and fast numbers, the comic vs. romantic scenes, the pacing of the plot, etc.   Unlike say, Utopia, no character gets left behind, no subplot fails to get resolved, and no stone is left unturned by Sir Arthur in his use of musical motifs and clever orchestration to illustrate the meaning of a song.   So, to wrap up this longwinded justification, just as we can say that The Mikado, Pinafore and Pirates are "very popular", I think it is fair and true to say that "many G&S fans" find Iolanthe the best and the best balanced G&S show.  --Ssilvers 19:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not adding a "cite needed" back into the article, but I think the statement is still problematic. There are several G&S operas that some significant subset of the G&S fan base would described as "best" or "best balanced." So, why say it about Iolanthe only? Marc Shepherd 12:46, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that Iolanthe is the favorite of more "G&S fans" than any other.  I think the reason for this is its consistently engaging music and dialogue, good storytelling and pacing, and I understand why so many G&S fans rank it first.  Also, I think that there are very few G&S fans who "dislike" Iolanthe, whereas there are a lot who say "I don't like Mikado" or "I don't like Patience", or "Yeomen is full of holes", etc. for the same reasons.   BTW I am defining "G&S fans" as people who have seen more than just a couple of G&S shows and who intend to explore (or have explored) more G&S shows -- that is, who recognize G&S as something different from any other musical or opera and have a reason for having a "favorite".   Also, my reasoning above as to why it is the best "balanced" is, I think, more than just taste -- I think that there is objective analysis in there (somewhere).   I could go show by show and tell you why I think the others are not as well balanced (although Mikado is a very well balanced show), but I think that the claims now made in the article are very mild and fair to state.   If anyone has a serious disagreement with the claims, I will yield to a reasonable argument.  --Ssilvers 23:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Claims re: Iolanthe's Popularity Among G&S Fans and Balance

message: I just did a fairly major re-write on the plot summary.  Reading it over, I realized that the summary contained a number of statements that are not supported in the libretto (though they may have applied to a production that the writer was familiar with) and other descriptions that did not follow (or confused) the order of the libretto. --Ssilvers 01:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's far better now. Marc Shepherd 12:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plot summary 

message: Iolanthe supposedly revealed herself to the L.C. to save him from "bigamy", but bigamy is marrying two wives.  What's a child marrying a parent?  (besides illegal/etc.) Peter T.S. 03:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Comes under incest. However, Phyllis isn't his daughter, Strephon's his son. Unless you're saying Strephon's a transexual fairy the L.C. wants to marry... Adam Cuerden 05:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely rewrote this -- see plot summary above.   The idea that Iolanthe does what she does to save the L.C. was just wrong.   He does what he does, because, to paraphrase the libretto, a father would not stand in the way of his son's happiness.  --Ssilvers 00:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Act II 

message: Again, I find myself with the difficult task of trying to divide an Act I finale into sections. Iolanthe's Act I Finale is so complicated that I've just put a waiver saying that it has other parts too and let it stand with a few of the sections that have an obvious first line to quote - this may not be ideal. In fact, it isn't. Help! Adam Cuerden 12:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you've done fine, and I don't think a disclaimer is needed. Marc Shepherd 13:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: By the by, one thing: Should the title be "Young Strephon is the kind of lout", the title I think of that section as, or "With Strephon as your foe, no doubt", which I suspect women think of it as? Adam Cuerden 14:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The track listing on the D'Oyly recording lists the title of the track as "With Strephon for your foe", for the record.  (cf. Amazon) vogon 23:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think it's a poll issue.  You need to look at the authoritative sources before making this sort of change.  A track listing on a particular recording is not much evidence.  --Ssilvers 16:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Have added a footnote, though perhaps I should have used the <ref> to make it less obvious. It's probably unnecessary. By the way, I may be wrong, but I seem to recall the Schirmer score has the fairies singing about how awful Strephon is in, at the least, parts of this song. Schirmer's Iolanthe... is probably best avoided. Adam Cuerden 18:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Act I Finale

message: Is it worth mentioning this is a reprise of "If you go in" or is this pointless? I have added such mentions to, for instance, Princess Ida, so if this is undesirable, I'd like to know before I spread it further. Adam Cuerden 15:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a problem with your noting that, since it's true an may be helpful to someone.  --Ssilvers 16:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, however many of these reprises are obvious. A reasonable person will realise "For he's going to marry Yum-Yum" and "For he's gone and married Yum-Yum" as the same song, and certainly "Now to the banquet we press" and "Now to the banquet we press" are easily identifiable as the same number, if the subsections are correctly listed. However, in a few rare cases (I may miss some): Hail Poetry / Hail noblemen (reprise cut before first night); "If Saphhir I choose to marry" / "After much debate internal"; "If you go in" / "Soon as we may"; "Expressive glances" / "With joy abiding", and, arguably "Once more gondoleiri ... So goodbye cachucha", the fact of similarity is obscured by a change in the first line, (usually with less change later). The cases are rare enough that they're worth mentioning. Adam Cuerden 17:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree in general, but think that short notes like "see (section)", or footnotes as preparation for having a new section, like is happening in Mikado with the Pish-Tush "So please you sir" note is fine. A short note clarifying that two songs have the same tune would be awkward to work into any section but the list of songs, so should be there, unless you can propose a better place. Adam Cuerden 20:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: *shrug* That's what I had before. Adam Cuerden 20:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Soon as we may

message: Can anybody discern a reference to either of the Queen of the Night's arias in any of the Fairy Queen's music?  Somebody seems to think so - see The Magic Flute#Trivia.  I've stuck a "citation needed" there, but thought I'd ask here before deleting it out of hand. --GuillaumeTell 11:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know I have read that either the character or the music was supposed to evoke Mozart's, but I've never seen it myself.  I think at one time there was such a reference in this article, but the concensus was to remove it.  Check the history.  I'll check my G&S books when I get a chance.--Wehwalt 13:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  I checked the history, and this "fact" appeared in the article on 13 November 2005 and was removed on 4 April 2006 (Discussion here).  Glad to see that my own impression that there is no Mozart reference is backed up by others.  I'll eliminate it from the Flute article and put an explanation on its talk page. --GuillaumeTell 13:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I always thought it was more Wagner. Adam Cuerden talk 21:41, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the Wagner refers to the fairies' cries in Act II before Iolanthe is to be "executed" and the belief that their cries resemble the Rhinemaidens' cries in Das Rheingold.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Queen of the Night? 

message: I think it's worth mentioning that Iolanthe's appeal to the Lord Chancellor is initially made in disguise, and that he listens to it and is visibly moved; only after he masters himself and reiterates his determination to marry Phyllis himself does Iolanthe unveil, sacrificing herself "for him, for her, for thee". The last part, I take it, is that in addition to making Strephon and Phyllis unhappy, the Chancellor is otherwise about to commit bigamy. G&S often introduce a note of genuine pathos and Iolanthe revealing herself as the chorus of invisible fairies beg her not to certainly qualifies (even tho' W Schwenk is about to conjure a rabbit out of the hat, as usual). Captain Pedant 12:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. See the new changes to the plot summary, and modify as necessary.  If you like G&S, join WP:G&S.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers 12:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I've made a few minor modifications, which I think will help the reader who doesn't know G&S as exhaustively as we seem to.  Incidently, the Lord Chancellor's insertion of one word to change the law has always bugged me a bit.  He'd have to change one of the existing words to change the tense.  "Every fairy shall die who marries a mortal."  Even if the LC inserted "don't" (or, more likely "doesn't"), you'd have to change "marries" to "marry".  Given how precise Gilbert was about the law, he probably should have had the LC say "One little change will do it" or words to that effect.--Wehwalt 14:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Just an offhand comment.  Not planning to put it in the article.--Wehwalt 22:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Iolanthe's dilemma

message: I don't see how it makes sense to move the Capt Shaw info from where it was.  The first paragraph under "Background" is all about things that happened on opening night.  This leads into discussion of the text, the issue regarding the name and then historical context.  -- Ssilvers 03:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As you like, it is not a major issue.  I think the first paragraph should be as broad as possible, leading into specific things, like the Shaw matter, later in the section.  The section is called "Background", I think it should start by painting with a broad brush, getting into details later.  Standard writing practice, and it does seem a little jarring, introducing the specific of Capt. Shaw in the middle of a paragraph.  I'll leave it up to you.--Wehwalt 10:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It does.  I wonder if we should put the "Perola" story before the discussion of the opening night?  Also, I'm going to check my copy of "The First Night Gilbert and Sullivan", I think there is contemporary discussion of the lighting, with particular reference to the Queen's wand.  Might be worth quoting.--Wehwalt 10:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I've looked over the section closely.  It needs work.  I'll play around with it at some point.  The way I look at it, as it stands now, you could rearrange those paragraphs in any order you wanted and it wouldn't make much difference.--Wehwalt 17:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Capt. Shaw; background section

message: Is it worth having in the article that the drunken robot in the Asimov story quotes from the Nightmare song?  It is a while since I read the short story, but it does spout off from several G&S operettas, as SSilvers' edit notes.  Why should this be in Iolanthe, then?  Why not in the G&S article?  If the robot quotes from several works, are we putting that in each work he quotes from?  Better to put it, if at all, in the G&S article.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This information is noted in the main article on G&S cultural influences.  I thought that it was worth noting here, too, but feel free to delete if you don't think so.  I suspect that there are plenty of other notable examples of Iolanthe music, lyrics or dialogue being noted or parodied in popular culture, media or literature.  Feel free to add any that you know of.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I won't delete it.  I may change "Literature" to "Fiction" or some such.  I'll give it some thought.  I know I have read references to Iolanthe in fiction, but it isn't coming immediately to mind.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Runaround

message: Probably silly, but I came to see how "Iolanthe" is pronounced. A phonetic spelling at the start of the article may be helpful to some.
:Good idea.  Does anyone know how to write it using the phonetic alphabet?  It sounds like: eye - oh - LAN (as in land) - the (as in theocracy).  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:51, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In the International Phonetic Alphabet: .  I'll add this. Lfh (talk) 16:25, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: Why is there a link to Mount Ararat in the see also section? Could this have been overlooked plausible vandalism? DFH (talk) 15:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the characters is named Lord Mountararat, as mentioned in the cast list.  The connection could probably be clearer, but I'm not sure of the best way to do it. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 15:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ararat? 

message: Apropos of the recent reversion, while the TV character Reggie Perrin may or may not in the present context be notable, the reverted contribution by an anonymous contributor is accurate, except for spelling David Nobbs's name wrongly. Tim riley (talk) 18:14, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello.  If you think the information is appropriate for the article, would you kindly insert the information, together with an appropriate citation and wikilinks?  Thanks!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:46, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Even if that is correct, I doubt that it would be noteworthy in this article.  One would need a WP:RS that explains why the character is significant to this article. Does the character sing any songs from the opera during the TV show, or is there a story-line involving the opera?  The mere fact that his middle name is chosen after the opera would not be noteworthy here. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:24, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reginald Iolanthe Perrin 

message: What is going on here?  Is London mythological?  (And, looking at the category, in what way are the settings of The Gondoliers, Princess Ida and The Grand Duke mythological?  The category description refers to mythology and folklore - there's no mention of countries invented by opera librettists. --GuillaumeTell 22:38, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, GT.  Act I of Iolanthe is set in "An Arcadian Landscape".   Act II of The Gondoliers is set in the mythical island of Barataria.  Princess Ida is set somewhere in medieval or renaissance storybook land, with many anomalies as to time and space.  The Grand Duke is a fictional German-speaking Grand Duchy.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:47, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, so tell me what the members of the House of Lords are doing in a mythological arcadian landscape.  Barataria and Pfennig-Halbpfennig and an all-woman university - what have they to do with mythology?  Mythology is Wotan and Venus and King Arthur, not nineteenth-century whimsy. --GuillaumeTell 01:50, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with GuillaumeTell. Thespis would qualify (in spades!), but none of the rest of the G&S canon, in my opinion. Tim riley (talk) 10:19, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

text: Barataria and Utopia both date back much earlier than the 19th century. Barataria was invented by Cervantes and Utopia (the concept, at least) by Sir Thomas More. I imagine that my definition of mythology and GuillaumeTell's are at odds, with his being much more restrictive than mine, and would support SSilvers suggestion that the category be expanded to include folklore and fictional settings.  Of the G&S Canon, I'd say Barataria definitely fits mythology. I'm on the fence about The Grand Duke as it is set in a fictional German republic. Thespis is set on the very real Mount Olympus in Greece, but SSilvers has made a case that it is a cross between the real Mount Olympus and the mythical Mount Olympus. Despite Gilbert's scene direction, I'm not convinced that the first scene of Iolanthe is set in Arcadia rather than somewhere in the British countryside. Shsilver (talk) 15:04, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

text: More re: Iolanthe: She went to live at the bottom of a stream (instead of "at the bottom of my garden") to be near her son, Strephon, an Arcadian shepherd.  I don't know how the peers get there; perhaps they click their heels together three times.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:13, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: An unnecessarily pedantic person (e.g. me) might point out that the Oxford English Dictionary has this to say about Arcadia: "Latin Arcadi-us( < Greek Ἀρκαδία, a mountainous district in the Peloponnesus, taken as the ideal region of rural contentment)" Not altogether mythological, it seems. Be that as it may, I'm happy to go along with the majority on the proposed category. Tim riley (talk) 16:53, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

text: Thanks, GT.  If there is no separate category for operas set in fictional places, then I would suggest adding "fictional locales" to the description of this category, which would create one neat place for operas set in fictional, mythological and folkloric settings.  Would you kindly let us know the outcome?  Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:36, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No comments at the Opera Project, so I've proposed the revised category name at CfD, see here. --GuillaumeTell 17:00, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:operas with a mythological setting]] 

message: In the trivia section there is currently a disagreement over whether Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" sci-fi books were based on Iolanthe. I suggest that if the statement is retained Asimov's statement about his inspiration should be spelled out in full, as at present its tangential relevance to the opera is misleading. Tim riley (talk) 16:25, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree, if I understand you correctly, Tim riley.  As you know, I have often drawn the line at including a little more info in "In Culture" sections than you prefer to do.  In this case, however, Asimov said that he was reading Iolanthe on the subway, it started him thinking about wars and empires, and by the end of the ride, his train of thought had arrived at the station.  I don't think we need to say any more than that this very important work of science fiction was inspired by Iolanthe, although I am happy to put it in the footnote if you like.  Am I understanding your comment correctly?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:53, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I cherish Asimov's Foundation trilogy (pentalogy in the end?) and, just as much, his comic short stories on G&S themes (Wellington Johns, lost robots, etc), but to say sans phrase that the Trilogy is inspired by Iolanthe is misleading. I suggest the author's original remark needs to be quoted in full. Tim riley (talk) 17:02, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't see how Asimov's sitting on the subway is of significant interest to people finding out about Iolanthe.  Again, if you think an explanation is needed, we can certainly put it in the footnote, and then if people want to know in what way Iolanthe inspired Foundation, they can look at the note....  The source says: "Asimov was travelling on the subway reading a collection of Gilbert and Sullivan operettas.  He opened it at Iolanthe.  The illustrations and their military theme started him thinking in terms of armies, wars, and empires.  Before he had arrived at [his publisher's] office he had the idea of writing about a galactic empire, based on the historical structure, rise, and fall of the Roman Empire."  I would shorten this for the footnote to say "Asimov was travelling on the subway reading ... Iolanthe.  The illustrations and their military theme started him thinking in terms of armies, wars, and empires.  Before he had arrived at [his publisher's] office he had the idea of writing about a galactic empire, based on the historical structure, rise, and fall of the Roman Empire."   -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:47, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: My problem is – and I speak as one who admires and respects Asimov as a writer (not just a genre writer but a memorable and insightful one sans phrase) – that unless we explain the circumstances, anyone who knows Asimov's work will wonder what the dickens the Foundation Trilogy has in common with Iolanthe. I think we should either explain the context or omit the reference altogether. (ps. The Trilogy surely has more in common with Pinafore – "Things are Seldon what they seem".) – Tim riley (talk) 16:29, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now added info to clarify Iolanthe's part in the conception of Foundation.  See if you think it works ok for you now.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:37, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. I'll sign up to that. Thanks for accommodating my pickiness. Tim riley (talk) 19:10, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asimov in trivia section 

message: The disambiguation hatnote for Tchaikovski's "Iolanta" is based on the similarity of the name (and, in theory at least, to avoid confusion arising from this similarity). There is no other connection (for instance the plot is completely different - the heroine is a fairy rather than a blind princess etc.)  So while the play on which the Tchkovsky work is based is relevant to that work - its connection to Gilbert & Sullivan's "Iolanthe" is extremely tenuous.  IMHO, anyway --Soundofmusicals (talk) 20:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I heartily agree.  I think that satire is WP:OVERLINKing, but I totally agree about the hatnote.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:41, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Hello, Paul.  The purpose of a hatnote is to steer searchers to the correct article.  Will anyone search for "Iolanthe" who is looking for Yolanta?  User:Soundofmusicals does not think so, and it strikes me as extremely unlikely.  See WP:HATNOTE#Legitimate information about the topic and the other examples of improper use of a hatnote.  Note that my overlink comment is not about this, but something separate, involving a previous change by Soundofmusicals.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:11, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand the question "will anyone search for "Iolanthe" who is looking for Yolanta?". I don't think you understood my note. "Yolanta" is one of many spelling variants of the same medieval name. The play and the opera were both commonly known as "Iolanthe" in English, and were performed under that name. G&S's first audiences would have have recognised the title of their satire from the play, which, though officially titled "King Rene's Daughter", was often performed under the name "Iolanthe", and was so in the years just before the G&S work was created. In other words "Iolanthe" is an alternate name of "King Rene's Daughter", so anyone searching for it might do so under that name. Furthermore, the hatnote provides new information for the reader. I appreciate that that's not the function of hatnotes, but it's a fringe benefit of the link system. Soundofmusical's comments about the plot are wholly misplaced. It's not the plot that's being imitated, it's the genre that's being satirised. However that whole point is completely irrelevant. The rationale for hatnote use is the identical title, as I have said. Paul B (talk) 15:49, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul - I don't disagree with you really - but the hatnote AS IT IS - pointing out possible confusion between the Tchaikovsky opera and the G&S operetta is quite enough. What we DON'T need is a further reference to the play that the libretto of the Tchaikovsky is based on - because, very simply, Gilbert's libretto is not based on "King Rene's Daughter" at all - his character just happens to have a similar (or, if you like, identical) name. You and I are both called "Paul" - but we are totally different people (at least I hope so, for your sake) and one can refer to one of us without mentioning the other without losing any important information. Adding irrelevant (or even nearly irrelevant) references does not help educate (or "provide information to") users, it can in fact only serve to spread confusion and dismay. Iolanthe is indeed VERY satirical indeed, and the targets of its satire (while principally political) are also artistic. Mendelssohn obviously cops it bigtime (both Gilbert AND Sullivan get in on this one!!) - and I am more than prepared (especially if you can find a reference) to admit that Gilbert MAY have had either the Tchaikovsky opera (or even the play) in mind when he picked Iolanthe's name. This might even be brought up in the text - if people think its relevant or notable. All I am saying is that the hatnote is no place for this kind of thing. The purpose of the reference to Tchaikovsky in the current hatnote is purely disambiguation. For this purpose it is eminently sufficient, and needs no amplification. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 06:48, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry Paul - did the above just as I was hurrying out. Coming back again - and re-reading your post - I notice that you do actually understand about the disambiguation function of the hatnote better than I gave you credit for. I still don't agree though. Hatnotes are there for likely, or at least feasible causes of confusion, and I can't see that there is even the hint of anything like that here. If you had a rather better argument than you have - (i.e. if there really WAS a serious disambiguation point here) then it would be a matter for a disambiguation page rather than a "layered" hatnote. A clincher for me, incidentally, is that "Iolanthe" is not suggested as an alternative title in the article for the original Danish play. But if you want to do a disambiguation page, with a changed hatnote to match, then I wouldn't object. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 07:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as this is the "primary" article, I wouldn't object either.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:50, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

text: "Iolanthe" is NOT noted as an alternative title to "King Rene's Daughter" in the first or second sentence of the lead - where it would (or at least should) be noted if it is a likely "second title", i.e. likely to be searched for by that title. E.g. note how "Arabian Nights" is noted as an alternative title to "One Thousand and One Nights". Hatnotes (I thought you understood this, but perhaps it needs to be said again) are there to resolve likely confusion, and should be avoided where they are more likely to cause confusion than to resolve it. A disambiguation page - perhaps on the name Iolanthe or Yolanta or whatever, and giving information about the name itself and listing articles with a connection to the name (there may well be others besides the three we have here) might very possibly be appropriate. Then the hatnote to this one would read "This article is about the Gilbert and Sullivan comic opera - for other uses, see Iolanthe (name)". (There is a template for just this format). I do think that this would be a much more appropriate way of resolving any possible confusion. It is also far more flexible, in that any future article using the name Iolanthe or any of its variants can be simply added to the disambiguation page and thus get an automatic if indirect link here, though a hatnote that will not need to grow. Can you "do" this page yourself, or would you prefer I do it? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 13:37, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been looking into this.  Henry Irving produced Theodore Martin's translation of "King Rene's Daughter" under that name in 1876.  Thereafter, he revived the play under the name "Iolanthe" at least once prior to G&S's show (Ainger says that this was in 1880).  In any case, I think that Soundofmusicals' suggestion is the best way to go.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:16, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Better to cite Ainger (pp. 212 to 213).  Bradley may be mistaken about Wills.  Gilbert's letter, as directly quoted in Ainger, does not mention Wills.  Irving certainly used the Martin translation, not the Wills, in 1876, when Irving called the play "King René's Daughter".  Also, none of the sources report whether Carte actually got "permission" to use the name from Irving or simply went ahead anyway.  I don't think that, even then, a woman's name could be copyrighted, and there are no other elements of the play that are used in the opera.  Other works called "Patience" must have been written before the G&S opera of that name.  I am continuing to look into this.  But, in any case, I think SoundofMusicals is right that the simplest thing to do is to put up a disambig page and link to that in the hatnote.  That would always be correct, whatever the facts turn out to be.  Why make such a big deal about this, Paul?  Try to be more collaborative.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul, sorry if my tone seems patronising - such is NOT my intention at all - just trying to avoid confusion for the user who is NOT a specialist in Victorian culture, while at the same time (as you remark yourself) being informative and not "pandering to ignorance". I will try to be a nice old man and refrain from remarking about pots calling kettles black, or stones and glass houses, by the way. Anyway - let's try the disambig page. I have been looking into things myself - there are already at least two dab pages for variant forms of the name "Iolanthe" which might be linked to the "Iolanthe (name)" page, as well as the Tchaikovsky opera, the Danish play, and this article (not to mention Yolande, Duchess of Lorraine, who seems to be at the root of the whole business). As I said, there may very well be other appropriate links too. Overall, it is actually quite a common name really, counting variant forms. If you want to start the dab page yourself by all means - otherwise I'll get onto it myself shortly. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:51, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iolanta 

message: [Copied from another talk page]  Wikipedians should be skeptical about unreferenced assertions.  That's why WP:V and WP:OR are two of our three most important policies.  It is clear that "King René's Daughter" was presented by Henry Irving in 1876 (from Irving's correspondence, cited in the "King René's Daughter" article) and that Irving revived it under the name "Iolanthe" - Ainger says this was in 1880.  No one has shown that the character of Iolanthe in the G&S opera is supposed to make the audience think of the character in "King René's Daughter".  It is just as reasonable to suppose that Gilbert used the name 'despite the fact that Irving had used it so recently.  If anyone can find good evidence that Gilbert chose the name to make this connection for his audience, that would be of interest here.  All the best.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Connection between "King René's Daughter" and ''[[Iolanthe]]''?

message: User: Lehighlinda added this on 4 August 2012:
:According to the program notes for the Houston Gilbert & Sullivan Society' s 2012 production of ' Iolanthe' , the reason for the name change had to do with royalty income. In general, the first New York City performance of each new G&S production opened only days after the arrival of the first ship from England following the London premier, and perhaps even sooner, depending on the success of U.S. opera spying operations. As a result, a U.S. production company would claim U.S. royalty rights to the title. To prevent that, Iolanthe was rehearsed under the title "Perola" -- so that if a U.S. imitation opened before the "real thing" was produced in NYC by a D' Oyly Carte company, the imitators would have the wrong name and hence no claim to the ' Iolanthe'  title. The true G&S version under its true name would be first performed in the U.S. by a D' Oyly Carte troupe, and therefore belong, royalty-wise, to the D' Oyly Carte Opera Company. The notes say, "And so, a traveling D' Oyly Carte troupe (already in the city performing ' Patience' ) gave, in makeshift costumes on a makeshift set, a single night' s rendering of ' Iolanthe'  for the first time in America. U.S. royalty rights to the Comic Opera were secured, and the troupe returned to ' Patience.'  One might imagine...that Gilbert smiled."
As it this addition contains no author/bibliographical details and no indication why the programme is a WP:RS, and is, I think, frankly wrong (see below), I have taken the liberty of moving it here pending examination of the facts and a consensus about how to proceed.
In fact, the change of name was publicly known both in London and New York as early as 4 November, three weeks before the London and New York premieres, which were both on 25 November: see "Music and Musicians",  The New York Times, 5 November 1882. The contentions in the Houston programme seem to me inaccurate in every relevant particular. The reason for the temporary title was that Henry Irving held the rights to the title Iolanthe (from an 1880 play of that name by W G Webb) and "Perola" was used until Carte could secure the rights from Irving. (Stedman, p. 190).  All views gratefully received. – Tim riley (talk) 12:28, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Tim riley.  Yes, this addition contains lots of frankly wrong information.  First of all, Richard D'Oyly Carte did NOT, successfully "secure" royalty rights in America.  Also, as Tim notes, the description of the change of the rehearsal name "perola" to "Iolanthe" was known and advertised more than a week before the opening.  Houston G&S is an amateur company.  Either their theatre programme is in error or the editor has mis-summarised it.  Finally, I would note that this detail about the show's name should not have too much ink in the article as a matter of WP:BALANCE.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 09:20, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent addition in re "Perola" 

message: The works of Gilbert and Sullivan ARE operettas, of course, by any sensible definition. But because "operetta" was a naughty word at the time (with some reason!) they were "originally billed" as "comic operas": as a little "no smut here, we're British" signal. We still call them "comic operas" here (I have no idea why, but there you are). This is a shame - but if it were ever to be rectified we would need to get a consensus, and change many entries (consistency is important) not just peck at this one. Sorry... --Soundofmusicals (talk) 21:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I feel very strongly that we should honor the intent of Gilbert, Sullivan and Carte and call them operas.  There have been long discussions about this in the past either at the G&S talk page, or the project pages, with extensive, specific arguments made. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:10, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: We all know your (and for that matter my) opinion on this one, oh silvery one. The reason for the note above is not to set in motion an old argument - but to explain my reversion of a good faith edit that changed this article: which was, incidentally, to the ("comic opera") status quo, even though this would NOT be my own first choice. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 22:27, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Phew! That's a great relief. The heart sank at the prospect of going round the buoy yet again. So glad we aren't. Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: To be honest, I am quite surprised that there has been any adverse reaction at all. I simply reverted a good faith edit back to the previous form - I think everyone knows what I think, but I was just supporting the current consensus. My explanation was for the benefit of a new editor. When I was in their position things were not always explained, and if I had been a delicate little lassy instead of a thick-skinned old man I might have given up. If the question ever does come up again, and if the consensus changes, then I hope everyone will respect that. I think we all agree that consistency is the main thing. We can't call something one thing in one place, and something else in another. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 15:35, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Operetta? 

message: I made these changes at the beginning of the synopsis, intended to remove redundancy and meta-text about the opera, and to streamline the synopsis, but another editor reverted, saying that the redundant language clarifies the time frame.  Yet, in the very next sentence we discuss the time frame.  Do others have an opinion? -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:06, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Synopsis

message: Does anyone know the story of Iolanthe was contemporary, or whether it is based on some kind of myth or legend? ElectricRay (talk) 13:43, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, ElectricRay.  When you comment on Talk pages, please put your comment at the bottom of the page, so people can find it.  Iolanthe is an original story.  It is not based on any myth or legend, although it makes use of the general idea of fairies.  Tchaikovski wrote an opera called Iolanta (1892) based on King René's Daughter, which had also been adapted in London in 1880 as a play by W. G. Wills, but these are unrelated to Gilbert and Sullivan's opera. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:59, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: origin of the story

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Please explain why my changes to the first paragraph were reverted. I think it should read like this:
The beloved fairy Iolanthe, who arranged the fairies' songs and dances, committed the capital crime (under fairy law) of marrying a mortal. The Queen of the fairies commuted Iolanthe's sentence of death to banishment for life on the condition that she left her husband and never communicated with him again. After the passage of 25 years, the fairies, still missing Iolanthe deeply, plead with their Queen to pardon her and to restore her place in fairyland ("Tripping hither, tripping thither"). --April 31st (talk) 02:02, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Because without these specifications, the statements are ambiguous.  You are trying to more closely quote the language of the libretto, but on Wikipedia, we must make summaries clear to the general reader who has not read the libretto. However, I have changed human to "man" and restored one "her" that seemed the least ambiguous in context. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:09, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with that (from SSilvers): clarity is all important and we have to help our readers, many of whom will be visiting the topic for the first time, and who won't automatically grasp what's going on. - SchroCat (talk) 07:43, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I also agree with Ssilvers above. Many readers will not be G&S fans and won’t understand so it has to be made clear for them. Dreamspy (talk) 08:33, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Ssilvers: the summary needs to be clear for the benefit of the general reader who is not an expert on Gilbert and Sullivan. Jack1956 (talk) 16:19, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I was going to comment that Ssilvers might be right about mortal, but anyone can understand who the pronouns refer to. I'm glad to see the two amendments. --April 31st (talk) 01:59, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: When I posted my previous comment I made an error,  which made things untidy. Thank you very much to the person who has corrected the error.--April 31st (talk) 03:43, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synopsis, first paragraph