Talk:Ex-gay movement/Archive 2

message: There are two lines on this page that I think would benefit from some clarification:
"There is scant scientific evidence suggesting that any actual changes in sexual orientation have taken place."
This is true. Nonetheless, it is not clear what would constitute "scientific" evidence of a change in sexual orientation, or how likely it is that any such person would be monitored with appropriate standards. Homosexuality is not considered an illness, and hence it is difficult to imagine that such a change--if possible--would occur in an environment subjecting it to acceptable scientific standards.
If the statement is to read this way, the article should cite evidence of attempts to verify these claims. The article currently reads "those changes [...] are generally dismissed as the result of [...]" This statement should attribute the "general dismissal" to the scientific or gay community. Furthermore, it sounds rather aloof without any further explanation.
"modern medicine [...] Fundamentalist Chrisitianity [...] homosexuality actually is"
The use of "modern medicine" here, I believe, should be replaced with explicit references to the scientific fields that express their understanding of the matter (that is, Psychology, Psychiatry, etc.) The nature of evidence and research in these areas differs from those which might otherwise be implied by the general term.RWZero 06:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Representation of Scientific Perspective

message: This page has an undue amount of biased info. The vandals pink penguin and fireplace keep adding the biased and questionalble info back after it has been corrected. Then they accuse anyone of correcting the info as vandalism. How do we take care of this issue?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shyhiloguy31 (talk • contribs) 22:43, 28 August 2006  (UTC)
:You've had enough warnings. Next time, you're going to be reported. Grendel 09:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: bias and vandals

message: after reading the article and the posts of its critics I also belive that there is no amount of editing that could satisfy the goal of a neutral POV basicly this needs to be scraped and reworded from top to bottom. i wish that everyone who would like to help please post your name as an extension to this or e-mail me at rabies07@gmail.com --rabidronin 12-30-2005 3:31
:The article seems fine as it is. Please elaborate on which particular areas are causing problems, and reach a group consensus (on this talk page, not through personal e-mails) before attempting to make any major changes. Grendel 09:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sock puppetry is against Wikipedia policy, as well as personal attacks. (please take the time to go over Wikipedia policy before further contributing) If you have an issue with the tone of the article, then please discuss it here before making changes. I will not say it again. Grendel 07:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: rehack it?

message: To make this article NPOV, I offer the following changes:
* I propose that the overview and introduction be modified, and that three new sections be inserted, as offered in the below text
* I propose that the sections "ex-gay groups" and "controversies" be pared down significantly
* I propose that the "Dissenting Views" section be edited, and perhaps retitled and pared down to reflect the new text
Modified Overview and Introduction, New Sections:
The ex-gay or exodus movement is a controversial movement that consists of several groups  that seek to alter the sexual orientation of homosexual or bisexual individuals from homosexuality or bisexuality to heterosexuality.  Most, though not all, of these groups believe that all homosexual or bisexual individuals should attempt to make this change.  Ex-gay groups offer counseling, prayer, and other techniques to achieve this. Most ex-gay organizations also minister to people who identify as transgender, on the basis that they consider such feelings or behaviour to be related to homosexuality.
===Introduction===
The movement is primarily based in the United States (though it exists in other countries such as Canada, Sweden and the United Kingdom), and is largely led by Evangelical and fundamentalist Christians (see also Homosexuality and Christianity).  
The modern ex-gay movement has been broadly condemned by nearly all major psychological, psychiatric, and medical associations. Today, these secular associations point to scientific evidence suggesting that homosexuals cannot change their orientation and argue that homosexuals have no reason to do so aside from societal pressure. They say repressing those feelings may cause future psychological damage. These assertions are vigorously disputed by those in the ex-gay movement.
Because of the differences of opinion between modern medicine and fundamentalist Christianity's views on what homosexuality actually is, establishing a dialogue between the two groups is difficult at best. 
===Ex-gay Use of Language and Terminology===
One of the most common barriers to dialogue stems from the fact that the language and terminology related to homosexuality that ex-gay groups employ differs significantly from the common usage.  In common usage, the terms "gay" and "homosexual" are used to refer to a person whose primary attractions are to persons of the same sex, with little distinction made between sexual orientation and sexual behavior.  Ex-gay groups, however, regard the distinction between sexual orientation and sexual behavior as extremely important, and generally place greater emphasis on the latter.  The term "gay" is always applied only in reference to sexual behavior and identity.  Usage of the term "homosexual" varies; many use it in the same sense as "gay," while others use it more flexibly, most frequently using it as a modifier of other terms (e.g. "homosexual feelings," etc.)  The terms "ex-gay" and "former homosexual" are thus used to refer to people who have altered their sexual behavior but do not necessarily indicate a claimed change in sexual orientation.  The possession of a homosexual orientation is almost always referred to as experiencing "same-sex attractions" (the existence of "homosexual orientations" as such is generally denied).  For an example of the differences in usage, consider a man who in the past engaged in homosexual behavior but is now celibate but has an unaltered homosexual orientation.  In common parlance, he would be called a "celibate gay man" or a "celibate homosexual" but in ex-gay usage would be referred to as an "ex-gay" or "former homosexual" who is still "working through his same-sex attractions."
===The Ex-gay View of Human Sexuality and Homosexuality===
Ex-gays view homosexuality and its causes significantly differently from the modern scientific community.  The scientific community generally regards human sexuality as a continuum from heterosexuality to bisexuality to homosexuality (see Kinsey Scale). Although the scientific community does not fully understand the causes of homosexuality, it is generally believed that it results from a combination of genetic and environmental factors and that one's sexual orientation is probably set sometime in early childhood or before.  While fluctuations in one's sexual orientation may occur over one's lifetime, it is believed that one's sexual orientation is generally not alterable.  The scientific community views homosexuality and heterosexuality as traits, akin to left-handedness and right-handedness.
Ex-gay groups, however, view human sexuality in terms of a default heterosexuality.  Although some may make use of the Kinsey Scale, it is clear that Kinsey zero is seen as the default and that any other number is viewed as deviation from the norm.  Ex-gay groups generally believe that "same-sex attractions," as they call them, are caused from environmental factors only--defective relationships with one's father or male peers during childhood or adolescence are most frequently cited as its primary causes.  They do not advocate denial of homosexual feelings, but believe they mask a deeper underlying issue that needs to be searched out.  They believe that, through treatment of these underlying issues, same-sex attractions can be controlled, diminished, and/or eliminated, and that opposite-sex attractions can be amplified and developed.  Ex-gay groups regard homosexuality as a psychological disorder, and regard its treatment much in the same way that one regards treatment of alcoholism or other addictions.  Ex-gay groups assert that the scientific community has taken its stances on homosexuality due to political, and not scientific, considerations.
===Ex-gay Claims Concerning Homosexual Change===
====Ex-gay Groups and Changes in Sexual Behavior====
From the point of view of ex-gay groups, a change in the sexual behavior of an individual from homosexuality to either celibacy or heterosexuality is generally regarded as "change," irrespective of any actual change in the underlying sexual orientation.   Many ex-gays live celibate lives.  Although the wisdom and moral necessity of doing so is hotly contested, the capacity of homosexuals to do so if they so choose is not disputed.  Other ex-gays marry opposite-sex spouses and remain faithful to their spouses within their marriages.  As a matter of morality, it is generally regarded that the spouse must be made aware of one's past and/or ongoing struggles with same-sex attractions before the marriage takes place.  Some married ex-gays acknowledge that their sexual attractions remain primarily homosexual, but seek to make their marriages work anyway.
Because of the way that ex-gay groups regard homosexuality and because of the way they define the term "ex-gay" itself, "relapses" into homosexual behavior are hardly surprising to ex-gay groups.  Since one may be "ex-gay" without having experienced a total, or even any, change in sexual orientation, that some ex-gays may "fall back" into "old patterns of behavior" is seen as something to be expected.  Ex-gay groups regard embarrassing exposures of their leaders engaged in homosexual behavior in the same way that an anti-alcoholism group might regard the exposure of one of its leaders to have taken up drinking again.
====Ex-gay Claims Concerning Changes in Sexual Orientation====
Many ex-gays claim that their sexual orientation has been altered as a result of their treatment.  Most say they have experienced a decrease in same-sex attractions coupled with an increase in opposite-sex attractions, and a significant number claim that their sexual orientation is now predominantly heterosexual—that is, that their opposite-sex attractions now exceed their same-sex attractions.  Very few, however, claim to have completely eradicated their same-sex attractions such that exposure to homosexual imagery would pose no temptations.
These claims of an alteration in one's underlying sexual orientation are hotly disputed by the scientific and gay communities, and there is scant scientific evidence suggesting that any actual changes in sexual orientation have taken place.  Ex-gay groups rely heavily on testimonials, and the "scientific evidence" they cite are generally survey results of reported change among ex-gays.  Those changes in reported sexual orientation are generally dismissed as the result of denial, wishful thinking, sexual repression, or willful deception.
Person 1485 04:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A Set of Proposed Changes

message: ====Ex-gay Groups and Changes in Sexual Behavior====
From the point of view of ex-gay groups, a change in the sexual behavior of an individual from homosexuality to either celibacy or heterosexuality is generally regarded as "change," irrespective of any actual change in the underlying sexual orientation.   Many ex-gays live celibate lives.  Although the wisdom and moral necessity of doing so is hotly contested, the capacity of homosexuals to do so if they so choose is not disputed.  Other ex-gays marry opposite-sex spouses and remain faithful to their spouses within their marriages.  As a matter of morality, it is generally regarded that the spouse must be made aware of one's past and/or ongoing struggles with same-sex attractions before the marriage takes place.  Some married ex-gays acknowledge that their sexual attractions remain primarily homosexual, but seek to make their marriages work anyway.
Because of the way that ex-gay groups regard homosexuality and because of the way they define the term "ex-gay" itself, "relapses" into homosexual behavior are hardly surprising to ex-gay groups.  Since one may be "ex-gay" without having experienced a total, or even any, change in sexual orientation, that some ex-gays may "fall back" into "old patterns of behavior" is seen as something to be expected.  Ex-gay groups regard embarrassing exposures of their leaders engaged in homosexual behavior in the same way that an anti-alcoholism group might regard the exposure of one of its leaders to have taken up drinking again.
====Ex-gay Claims Concerning Changes in Sexual Orientation====
Many ex-gays claim that their sexual orientation has been altered as a result of their treatment.  Most say they have experienced a decrease in same-sex attractions coupled with an increase in opposite-sex attractions, and a significant number claim that their sexual orientation is now predominantly heterosexual—that is, that their opposite-sex attractions now exceed their same-sex attractions.  Very few, however, claim to have completely eradicated their same-sex attractions such that exposure to homosexual imagery would pose no temptations.
These claims of an alteration in one's underlying sexual orientation are hotly disputed by the scientific and gay communities, and there is scant scientific evidence suggesting that any actual changes in sexual orientation have taken place.  Ex-gay groups rely heavily on testimonials, and the "scientific evidence" they cite are generally survey results of reported change among ex-gays.  Those changes in reported sexual orientation are generally dismissed as the result of denial, wishful thinking, sexual repression, or willful deception.
Person 1485 04:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ex-gay Claims Concerning Homosexual Change

message: Many ex-gays claim that their sexual orientation has been altered as a result of their treatment.  Most say they have experienced a decrease in same-sex attractions coupled with an increase in opposite-sex attractions, and a significant number claim that their sexual orientation is now predominantly heterosexual—that is, that their opposite-sex attractions now exceed their same-sex attractions.  Very few, however, claim to have completely eradicated their same-sex attractions such that exposure to homosexual imagery would pose no temptations.
These claims of an alteration in one's underlying sexual orientation are hotly disputed by the scientific and gay communities, and there is scant scientific evidence suggesting that any actual changes in sexual orientation have taken place.  Ex-gay groups rely heavily on testimonials, and the "scientific evidence" they cite are generally survey results of reported change among ex-gays.  Those changes in reported sexual orientation are generally dismissed as the result of denial, wishful thinking, sexual repression, or willful deception.
Person 1485 04:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ex-gay Claims Concerning Changes in Sexual Orientation

message: In the Love In Action section, the article says: "On September 12, 2005 the Tennessee-based Love in Action facility was determined by the Tennessee Department of Mental Health to have been operating two "unlicensed mental health supportive living facilities." [1] LIA was given until September 30 to apply for a license as a mental health facility." Has LIA applied for such a license? Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 23:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  LIA 

message: FlareNUKE keeps editing the page to say Zach's last name is not know.  It is known, but I think it was removed at some point because he's a minor.  It may not be appropriate to publish his last name on such a public forum.  Anyway, it is known, his father even did an interview at some point with the conservative Christian press.  See the edit history for details. eaolson 04:22, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Eaolson is right. Zach's last name was unknown, some people didn't even believe the blog was real, until his father was on the 700 Club and said their last name and confirmed the story. --JamesB3 07:43, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: LIA and the Zach Scandal

message: After about three months of leaving the text above on this page for comment (and getting none), I went ahead and implemented the text (further edited somewhat).  I now propose that we move to the second and third steps I have suggested:
* I propose that the sections "ex-gay groups" and "controversies" be pared down significantly
* I propose that the "Dissenting Views" section be edited, and perhaps retitled and pared down to reflect the new text
Person 1485 07:28, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is reasonable, but the article has since gone in the opposite direction. I've taken steps to move it back into line with Wiki policy. Alienus 08:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Major Edit

message: Before the recent major edit, I had been thinking that this page should be merged with reparative therapy.  I think there is a difference between the issues in that ex-gay is a movement while reparative therapy is a therapy to achieve the change ex-gay groups say are necessary.  But much of this article now discusses (and, to some extent) defends reparative therapy.  Is it necessary to maintain separate articles? eaolson 02:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After a quick scan of the articles, it seems the major contribution of the Ex-gay article is information about specific organizations and the controversies surrounding those organizations.  A better layout might have Reparative therapy as the main article, with a small section on "Ex-gay" groups that links to a larger article on those groups (the content could largely come from this current article). Fireplace 03:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge with Reparative therapy?

message: I notice that PATH ist discussed in this article, rather than having a separate article as is the case in the German Wikipedia.  Several users of the German Wikipedia have proposed that the various ex-gay groups which each have separate articles in German be discussed centrally in the German article on the Ex-Gay movement, since it is tedious and repetitive each time to explain what they think, why they think it, and why it is controversial.  There previously existed a separate article on "Zwischenraum", an Ex-Ex-Gay organisation, but this was deleted as "irrelevant", while the articles on PATH, NARTH, etc. were all considered to be relevant.  I was wondering if someone would provide a perspective as to why the various groups here are dealt with in one central article, since the language in which they are discussed doesn't seem very relevant to the question of whether they merit separate articles.  Any thoughts on this matter?--Bhuck 13:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  separate articles? 

message: I belive that there should be a clear distinction drawn between the "ex-gay" movement and Exodus International.  Exodus is but one of many organizations that address the needs of those coming out of homosexuality as well as those who have unwanted same-sex attraction.  Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.17.120.220 (talk • contribs) 19:01, May 20, 2006.
:You don't think the distinction is clear now?  I think the only mention made of Exodus is in the section specifically devoted to Exodus, with a link to its main article. eaolson 00:06, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Exodus Int'l

message: My understanding of WP:GTL is that the introduction should appear above the table of contents.  So as it stands, there are two "Introductions".  All the material in the Introduction section after the TOC is genuinely introductory, so I've moved it.  No wording was changed.Fireplace 01:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving introduction above TOC? 

message: I still believe that his last name should be added (Stark) as I seen it in an interview, think it was CNN --FlareNUKE 22:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add 

message: The section on Zach is tedious.  I propose it be edited and condensed for ease-of-reading.  Specifically, many of the direct quotes from Zach are unnecessary, or could be abridged.  
In records to NPOV: It is justified that the article focuses on inherent conflicts between the ex-gay and scientific communities. I propose we continue editing in the same vein: if many of the ex-gay movements rely on personal testimonials rather than credible scientific research, quotes from these testimonials should be included in the article, in contrast to the scientific studies. Such quotes would also help establish a better understanding of the tactics used by ex-gay groups.
Singlewordedpoem 07:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some new ideas 

message: From the article:
The movement is primarily based in the United States (though it exists in other places such as Canada, Scandinavia and the United Kingdom)
Now, the article clearly speaks about the movement inside the US and the UK. A link to a Canadian website is featured... but what about Scandinavia? The only thing mentioned is that it "exists". I think that could use some further reference :)
I'm a resident of this corner of the world, I have not ever heard of such thing before. There are very very few Christian fundamentalists in the Scandinavian country I belong to (Sweden), and the gay movements seems stronger than ever.
I'm not saying the statement can't be true, I'd just like it to have some sort of reference to back it up! As for now, it could aswell be naming every country in the world that has a few people who believe they can convert homosexual individuals :)
85.225.24.59 15:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scandinavia?