Talk:Lenora Fulani

message: Just thought I'd weigh in because this was a recent anonymous contribution at some length: I'm familiar with Fulani, and at a quick read this looks basically on the mark. -- Jmabel 06:23, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The heading is /*Early Life*/ and yet it appears the introductory POV is attempting to bring a negative impression of Ms. Fulani, specifically by going on a tangent of Mr. Newman, Mr. LaRouche, and Social Therapy.  I proposed cleaning this up a bit so it's more NPOV.  Thanks
:Sorry, it's completely relevant, as it goes to the core of Fulani's political involvement. And you need to read NPOV policy if you think this violates it. All of what you are removing are well-established facts, presenting in an objective and even-handed manner. RadicalSubversiv E 20:24, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal explanation 

message: : I must disagree. I see a repeat of the unproven slander put out by her political enemies.  Addionally, the "core" of Fulani's political movement is subject to interpretation, and I see her as a positive influence in the development an independent political movement.  
:Mr. D--Mr D 03:48, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You're free to believe whatever you want about Fulani. You're not free to remove facts from Wikipedia articles. If you can provide reasonable evidence that casts this information into doubt, you can add that. If you think the phrasing or presentation is in some way inaccurate or violates Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, that's up for discussion. But removing material outright because you think it portrays Fulani in an unflattering light is unacceptable, and will continue to be reverted. RadicalSubversiv E 04:06, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Follow-up

message: Moved here from the article:
:Admirer's Introduction
:Dr. Fulani's political career is very closely connected with her mentor Fred Newman, a controversial psychotherapist and political activist.  They met in the late '70s and have worked together as political partners on various projects. Dr. Fulani ran for President in 1988 and 1992, and was the first woman and first black candidate to obtain ballot access in all 50 states.  Her court cases challenging state ballot access laws were instrumental in laying the groudwork for subsequent independent campaigns, most notably Ross Perot in 1992.  She helped build the New York Independence Party, the third largest political party in New York State with 225,000 registered members as of 2004. Dr. Fulani and the New York Independence Party is credited with providing Republican Mayor Michael Bloomberg his margin of victory over Democrat candidate Mark J. Green. Her top political concerns include political oppression of black people, the abuses of the Democratic and Republican Party, and racial equality and gay rights.
On Wikipedia, we strive to accurately characterize information by using a single neutral point of view, which is arrived at through cooperation, not by simply adding our own individual points-of-view to articles we dislike. You might be interested in Wikinfo, a similar project which exists to present multiple POV versions of the same article. RadicalSubversiv E 22:02, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Competing introductions 

message: I've created an article on the Independence Party of New York.  Either that article or this one would benefit from more information about the Fulani "takeover" of the party.  I don't know all the details, but I gather that the Fulani faction, although it failed to deny Golisano the 2002 nomination, has now decisively ousted the Golisano faction and the other people who were involved in the party's founding.  There's a website at  that reflects the Reform Party/Perot orientation, but it also says: "This site is no longer the 'official' site of the Independence Party. 
We are not aware of an official web site at this time."  It seems like a reasonable speculation that the Fulani faction took over and de-certified (or whatever you'd call it) the old website, but that's just a guess. JamesMLane 00:57, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Independence Party

message: This edit, from an anon IP with no previous edits asserts that her claim of having been on the ballot in all 50 states is false. Since it cites no source and gives no indication of what state's ballot she may not have made, I don't know quite what to do with it. I've tried to contact the IP, but under the circumstances, the odds aren't very good. If no one responds in the next day or so, and if we don't find an independent source, I think we should restore the prior statement, but with citation of this being a claim on her own site or that of an organization to which she is tied. - Jmabel | Talk 06:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Having gotten no response, and having found confirmation of the claim from a source hostile to Fulani as well, I've restored, with citation. - Jmabel | Talk 01:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  There's three different questions involved: (1) was she on the ballot in all 50 states, and if so was she the (2) first woman and (3) first african american to do so.  I don't know.  I think it's OK with the citation as now, but if I find a better source to conform or deny it, I'll make the edit. Schizombie 02:22, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ballot access 

message: I tightened up the description of Newman's psychological ideas. Yes, he did advocate a "dictatorship of the proletarian ego," not just a "proletarian ego," in Power and Authority, so why sanitize it? The idea that this sophomoric stuff constitutes a "classical Marx/Freud synthesis" is absurd and I removed this phrase. (It should be noted that the chief authority cited in the introduction to Power and Authority was Lyndon LaRouche rather than Freud or Marx.) I also altered the phrasing that seemed to take seriously Newman's claim to the mantles of Vygotsky and Wittgenstein. Newman is not a serious academic nor is he a real psychologist. He has no training in psychological research methods (unlike Vygotsky) and has never done any research in the field of developmental psychology that he pontificates about. His "theories" about therapy include the assertion that having sex with one's patients is beneficial to their health. Anyone who bothers to peruse his self-published non-peer-reviewed books such as Let's Develop can see that this is not a serious person. He is a classic narcissistic sect leader whose "ideas" revolve around how to manipulate his followers, including Fulani. - 13 March 2005
: Great work by both anons who recently contributed to this. Really strengthens the article. Please, open accounts so people can more easily communicate with you and so that your various contributions can be related to one another. - Jmabel | Talk 19:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fulani and the psychology of Fred Newman 

message: This Alaskan page gives her running mate as "Burke" http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:_8EMDKy_3IYJ:www.gov.state.ak.us/ltgov/elections/partysta.htm  I had thought her running mate was Joyce Dattner.  Did she have more than one running mate in 1988? Esquizombi 10:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 1988 running mate

message: Edits have been made to give a bit more of a coherent structure. Superfluous overemphasis on Fred Newman has been edited to hopefully more apporpirate amounts. The heading Electoral Politics and the Politics of Personality changed to simply "Electoral Politics." I have no idea what the previous heading means, and there appears to be nothing in the literature on Fulani, nor in this article as written, that elaborates on that title, which simply seems inserted for its negative sounding non-NPOV language. BabyDweezil 17:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional edits/restructuring

message: from: []
Fred Flintstone's Wikipedia War
wordsmith
Familiar Face
Joined: 2006-09-25
Posts: 2	
Now it's Fulani too
Posted: 2006-09-26 18:21:00    
BabyDweezil (see above) has removed a huge chunk of the Wikipedia bio of Fulani, including the quote from the New York Times circa 2000 in which Fulani defended Fred's ideas on patient-therapist sex. The Bank Street family seems desperate to get ANY mention of patient-therapist sex or Fred living with his "former" patients removed from the web. They even solicited a Wikipedia monitor of some kind (any high school kid can sign up and call themselves that and get an intimidating little official page that means about as much as Sponge Bob's "hall monitor" title) to post a message that Rita Nissan's series could no longer be cited in the Fred Newman article because it is not properly sourced (or something like that).
Why all these transparent hand-in-the-cookie jar tricks at this particular moment although Fred didn't pay much attention to Wikipedia in the past? It might be that some of his Wall Street and celebrity supporters are worried about their friends and colleagues outside the cult googling Newman and Fulani (Wikipedia is just about the first thing that pops up) and thus are beginning to insist that Fred take steps to build a shield around their reputations, or else.
thanks for clarifying, Dennis BabyDweezil 02:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dennis King on Wikipedia monitors

message: NYC mayoral election was Nov 8, 2005, hence previous version was correct; reverted. Description and reference to relevant APA guidelines being challenged by Nemwan added and sourced. BabyDweezil 18:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Minor edit

message: This page, along with Fred Newman, and Social Therapy, is being made POV by advocates who are systematically removing most of the critical material. Help is needed to assure that this and the other pages are restored to NPOV status.--Cberlet 00:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page being made POV by advocates

message: Flipping through the history, I see no critical material being removed, systematically or otherwise. As one of the editors, I have made a modest effort to try to improve a page with a pre-existing, heavily POV character, correct some factual errors, and add information where appropriate. I agree with the above that help is needed, however, to have the article achieve NPOV status, not "restore" it to any such previous non-existent state as erroneously claimed above. BabyDweezil 18:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page being made less POV by editors?

message: Some minor info sourced to www.ex-iwp.org, a primary source, removed. Consolidated info from previous editor. It appears the unexplained deletion of material was meant to bring the bio up to date re Ms Fulani's current position at the All Stars, her syndicated column etc? Would be helpful if previous editor can confirm. There also appear to be some BLP issues which I will work on a bit BabyDweezil 01:09, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of the BLP and negaive POV issues addressed. Section on FEC removed, as presented had a clear implication of criminal activity, which is both untrue and a strongly negative POV presentation. BabyDweezil 01:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Attempts to delete critical comments on this page by participants in an ongoing discussion are not appropriate until the discussion under mediation at Fred Newman is resolved.--Cberlet 01:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Some edits; previous editor--please explain deletions

message: Sorry Baby, but your statement "sites critical of social therapy" links removed--this is a BLP entry--no symmetry with article” is false for the following reasons:
Lenora Fulani’s page states “Fulani's career has worked closely since 1980 with Fred Newman, a New York-based psychotherapist, political activist, and philosopher who has often served as her campaign manager and chief tactician for her numerous independent electoral campaigns. Social Therapy was first developed in the 1970s by Newman, who founded the New York Institute for Social therapy in 1977. Along with fellow psychologist Lois Holzman, Fulani has worked for the past 15 years to incorporate the social therapeutic approach to learning and development into a variety of youth-oriented programs and educational settings, most notably the New York City-based All Stars Project, which she co-founded in 1981. She currently serves in a volunteer capacity as an advisor to the program.” Therefore, the properly cited links which are critical of Social Therapy absolutely belong here. Links restored. GrownUpAndWise 22:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Links restored

message: The freedomofmind and Rick Ross commercial websites have been removed from EL. These sites exist largely to sell the "services" of these self proclaimed experts and are simply commercial competitors of social therapy. They have no position on Lenora Fulani and have never have published nothing about her. They use cult baiting scare tactics simply to attract suckers for their quack services. Whatever archive material they have is duplicated on the other sites. Per WP:EL removed. BabyDweezil 16:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Commercial websites removed from external links

message: WP:BLP:  Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article. --Ravelhave (talk) 23:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Which source is self-published?  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 01:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know is it's self published or not, although it is certainly a rather long section self inserted by the author of the source used. My question is how does this constitute criticism of Lenora Fulani? It seems largely a a criticism of Newman, and WP:BLP does say "Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association, which seems to me what this section ultimately is. I recommend removal since it seems to be just a personal grudge rant followed by a personal counter rant in response. If there is criticism of the form "X criticized Fulani's view/statement/actions in x publication, that would seem more appropriate. Boodlesthecat (talk) 17:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Which source are you referring to?  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 20:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Criticism" section was added by cberlet and from what I can find searching the phrase "I mean no harm to these powerful Black women, Emily Carter, Lenora Fulani and Barbara Taylor..." it sources back to online text authored by Berlet himself here. But this is peripheral to my concern that this is guilt by association criticism and not conventional criticism of the subjects ideas, actions etc. Boodlesthecat (talk) 20:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Check the footnote, it tracks back to what a colleague of Fulani said about her and her organization.--Cberlet (talk) 01:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chip Berlet 

message: Everything does not have to be covered; there is too much detail about the vagaries of politics and psychotherapy.--Parkwells (talk) 22:42, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Too much journalistic material

message: This section is too long, dealing in too much detail with NY politics.--Parkwells (talk) 12:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Electoral politics

message: A number of the links don't work for references, including the first one. Editors should look for more material that does not come from the All Star organization itself.  The links for references/notes #12, 17 and 18 don't work. --Parkwells (talk) 15:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061004182545/http://www.allstars.org/eNewsletter/001/eNewsletter_v001.html to http://www.allstars.org/eNewsletter/001/eNewsletter_v001.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061001185254/http://www.allstars.org/content/06_03_iume_report.pdf to http://www.allstars.org/content/06_03_iume_report.pdf
*Added archive https://archive.is/20060527034842/http://ex-iwp.org/docs/2005/ip47.htm to http://ex-iwp.org/docs/2005/ip47.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080112003009/http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp to http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?&aid=72508&search_result=1&stid=3
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*Added  tag to http://www.ipnyc.org/text/20050907queens.htm
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040603002131/http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/archives.asp?AUTHOR_ID=83 to http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/archives.asp?AUTHOR_ID=83
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