Talk:Anglican realignment/Archive 1

message: I will refrain from retagging for a while since I see the original editor is expanding the article and addressing my concerns. -- IslandGyrl 04:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oops, sorry, I see the article still growing

message: User 66.32.14.214 made the edit theologically "conservative" to theologically "biblical". This is un-helpful in the debate as both sides centre their respective arguments from "biblical" sources and perspectives. Conservative seems to me to better describe the anglican realignment position as it is commomly understood: conservative does carry quite a bit of baggage though so perhaps there is an even better word that does not denigrate either side.  
Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 14:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that "conservative" describes the situation quite well, and believe also that it does not denigrate either side - it is merely a neutral term used to describe the situation.  (This comment was made by a user who is proud to be a theological conservative.  :-D ) --Tim4christ17 talk 13:32, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a liberal Episcopalian I agree with Tim4christ17 that the term "theologically conservative" as used in the article accurately describes the parishes that are seeking realignment, without being unduly pejorative.  I agree with Wassupwestcoast that calling those parishes "theologically biblical" would not be constructive as I believe both sides of the controversy honestly believe their position to be biblical.  I don't, however, think we need to worry much about the "baggage" if indeed we are talking about conservative theology only. - Mark Dixon 23:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about "theologically traditional?" This sounds more "neutral" to me than "conservative" does, and more accurate.  Prost!Hectard (talk) 03:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: theologically "conservative" to theologically "biblical"

message: Does Anglican realignment also affect Canada or other Anglican provinces?--Bhuck 00:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Realignment only within ECUSA? 

message: This section is problematic in that none of the examples cited are actually instances of realignment.  Conflict, yes.  Departures from the Communion, yes. Organizations within the Communion, yes.  But, not one of these is an example of realignment as defined in the article which is alternative primatial oversight.  So, this needs to be re-written or moved down in the article as it blurrs the topic for the reader before actually arriving at a discussion of the present realignment.129.74.228.121 16:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History section 

message: The home for this info is best here to avoid repetition. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 17:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There has been no interest at all for 48 hours so assume that the proposal is uncontroversial. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 04:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC
I disagree.  The present situation in the Anglican Communion is essential to understanding the Communion.  A summarizing section is indispensable with a reference to the main article.  Why is there such passion to shunt off this material from principal articles?  Look at the Catholic Church page and you will see all kinds of information that is uncomfortable but needs to be there.  One does not have a right to present their own rosy version of a topic. That material stays there.129.74.165.42 03:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed merger of [[Anglican Communion#Homosexual ordination and realignment of the Communion|Homosexual ordination and realignment of the Communion]] to [[Anglican realignment]] 

message: I would like to work together with some of you editors on a presentation of the issues in a more objective fashion.  Could we try to have some subsections which outline each "sides" point of view.  I hate "liberal" and "conservative" when referring to religious topics, "fundamentalist" is worse.  But for lack of better terms at the moment could we outline each point of view briefly?  I will give it a try and let me know what you think.
"Liberal"
*Modern scripture scholarship applied to a variety of modern issues:
**WO
**Inclusion of LGBT
*Provincial autonomy extends to matters of doctrinal development.
"Conservative"
*Belief in the immutability of doctrine
**Divided over WO both in TEC and the AC
**Disapproving of SSB and Ordination of LGB bishops
*Belief that Provincial autonomy does not extend to changes in doctrine.
Present Position of the Anglican Communion: Windsor and Communique
*Current teaching of the AC is Lambeth 1998 1.10, though opinion vary widely throughout the communion and the teaching is subject to change at any future Lambeth Conference.
*The AC does not recognize as legitimate the crossing of Provincial boundaries.
Folks, I am not trying to disrespect your work here, but we have to keep the reader in mind.  This is a hot topic these days and WP ought to make good information readily available.129.74.165.42 04:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi user 129.74.165.42, where were you in February when Anglican realignment was the Anglican project of the month? No one who edits and is interested in Anglicanism is ignoring this issue. But please keep it in perspective. It is a bit exteme to say that this issue is "likely the most important development since the Oxford Movement." Perhaps you have forgotten the entire Ordination of women debate - a debate still on-going and which also can quite easily lead to schism. And, then there are the esoteric prayer book debates and so on. Anglicanism has been 500 years of outrage and door slamming :-)  Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 13:01, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Objective POV 

message: This news report Unity Among Orthodox Anglicans: How Do We Get There From Here? provides some interesting background reading about attempts at uniting a centuries worth of extra-mural Anglican groups. The conference was  "The Affirmation of St. Louis: Seeking a Path to Reconciliation and Unity" held at All Saints Episcopal Church, Wynnewood, Pennsylvania September 30-October 1, 2005.
Christian history, Ousley continued, is full of splits—“some necessary, some
benign, some sinful.” Likewise, while most of the splits undertaken by groups of
orthodox Anglicans since 1976 have been regarded by those who effected them as
necessary to the integrity of the Gospel, he said, some of them were rooted instead
in "some form of human selfishness,” e.g., personality conflicts or objections to
leadership style, “and are rightly termed `schism'". Complicating matters, Ousley
noted, is that orthodox Anglicans might in a few cases disagree as to which are
substantive or non-substantive issues, for instance the ordination of women
deacons, or whether seeking reunion with Rome is a high priority.
The post-1976 Continuing Church has "split various times," Ousley noted.
Additionally, others who left ECUSA since 1976 have formed separate bodies.
"While that is not exactly `splitting  it still contributes to the current state of
disunity," he said.PDF version of Unity Among Orthodox Anglicans:How Do We Get There From Here?
Note: Ousley is described in the same article as "Rev. David Ousley, rector for 22 years of St. James the Less, Philadelphia, an Episcopal-turned-independent congregation (which now awaits an appellate court decision on whether or not it will lose its property to Bishop Bennison)".PDF version of Unity Among Orthodox Anglicans: How Do We Get There From Here?
The conference mostly focussed on trying to unite the Anglo-catholic extra-mural Anglican churches but they did include the recent Anglican realignment movement. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 18:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unity amongst disunity

message: That St. Stephen's Anglican Church, Oak Harbor and St. Charles Anglican Church, Poulsbo" are now affliated with the Anglican Church of the Southern Cone of the Americas seems likely to be true. But, I can't verify it. St. Charles, Poulsbo is very coy about its affliation. You have to hover your cursor over the ACC coat of arms on the home page to be informed that it is a "Member of the AAC". No other statements of affiliation appear on its website. St.Stephen's website is "temporarily out of service". At the AAC website, under Non-ECUSA Affiliated Parishes it identifies both parishes as being affiliated with the "Diocese of Recife (Brazil)". I can not find an explicit statement by either parish or diocese about membership. Are they orphans?  Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 00:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I've found an  AAC Press Release datelined December 06, 2005:  "Recife Creates "North-American Archdeaconry" at its Synod". So the two parishes are affiliated with the Anglican Church of the Southern Cone of the Americas. But, I've now learned more complications in this Anglican realignment thing. The Diocese of Recife in Brazil is a part of the Province of Brazil and whose bishop is the Rt. Rev. Sebastião Gameleira.  But, the former bishop of the Diocese of Recife in Brazil - Rt. Rev. Robinson Cavalcanti - left the Province of Brazil and became affiliated with the Anglican Church of the Southern Cone of the Americas and formed the parallel "Anglican Diocese of Recife” which is not the same thing as the Diocese of Recife. So confusing. But, I'm learning. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 01:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Episcopal Diocese of Olympia]]

message: This article began as a discussion of the present crisis arising from the ordination of Gene Robinson.  Very cleverly it was filled with other material about other historical realignments, then all references to the present crisis and GR were removed completely.
I would suggest that there is room for a article on the present crisis and movement to realign.  If it doesnt belong here, then what article title can we agree on to create a space for this material?129.74.116.199 19:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article does discuss Gene Robinson; see Anglican realignment#Timeline of developments under 2003. However, the section "History" does need a section on the twentieth century, and the "Timeline of developments" needs to be rewritten as prose instead of lists and put into a section on the twenty-first century. The election of Gene Robinson was just a drop in the ocean of Anglican Realignment, and we don't want to give it undue weight. —Angr 20:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The ordination of Robinson is not the singular raison d'être of the Anglican realignment movement. If Robinson were to retire tomorrow, the movement wouldn't disperse after a wrap party like a movie shoot after its last day. The movement did not arise de novo in 2003: its most recent antecedents stretch back years. Notice the absence of a single Anglican realignment organization -  there are numerous competing camps -  which is highly suggestive of competition or else the opponents of Robinson would have coalesced around a single identifiable organization. For example, the issues of divorce, and ordination of women placed some Anglican realigment proponents into the fold of the Anglican Church of the Southern Cone of the Americas as either issue is problematical in either the Anglican Mission in America or CANA camps. There are also high church and low church issues dividing the movement. Bishop Schori is a very serious impediment to many in the movement. There are people in the movement who drew a line the sand 30 years ago over the prayer book.  And, there are simple - old-fashioned- personality conflicts that further divide the movement and the movement from the TEC. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 23:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One thing I wonder about is what happened in the ECUSA during slavery. Slavery was an issue that split many churches (Baptists, Methodists) - were there Episcopal churches that were unhappy with their primatial oversight on the issue of slavery in the 19th century? —Angr 06:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Cursory research seems to indicate that ECUSA almost divided over slavery. For example, a New York Times article of Feb 25, 2007 "A Divide, and Maybe a Divorce: by Laurie Goodstein - see has some good quotes:
*."Homosexuality is not the cause of the divide, just “the last straw,” said John L. Kater, a lecturer in Anglican Studies, at the Church Divinity School of the Pacific, in Berkeley, Calif."
*. "When the Episcopal Church elected a woman, Katharine Jefferts Schori, as presiding bishop last summer, it rubbed salt in the wound, Mr. Kater said. “The strength of the reaction by conservatives around homosexuality is partly because of a sense of offense around the ordination of women,” he said." 
*."The Episcopal Church is one of the few that did not split over slavery. Churches in the Confederate States did form a separate alliance, Mr. Kater said, but the national Episcopal Church met without them and “pretended they were out of the room,” calling out the dioceses’ names for a vote “as if they had just gone to the bathroom.” “After the war there was a simple reconciliation process, and they were all brought back in as if it had not happened,” he said. “I was taught in seminary that this was the great strength of the Episcopal Church, that when all the other churches divided, it stayed together and this was a sign of its great sense of unity. I think it was shameful, that the church considered that unity was more important than slavery.”"
Also, this from the Global South Anglican website,Schori ("Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefforts Schori–A Season of Fasting" - see Reflections on the Primates Meeting) said:
*."The struggle to end slavery has some parallel with our current controversy, and we can note the less than universal agreement about the moral duty of Christians over a lengthy period. The United States also experienced major division over slavery, even though the Episcopal Church did not fully divide. Some see that part of our history as shameful, while others see it as a sign of hope, and that, too, has current parallels."
And from the Documenting the American South website , a bio of a bishop of the Diocese of North Carolina - Thomas Atkinson - who "came to support southern moves to erect a Protestant Episcopal Church in the Confederate States of America". (A reference is given: J. B. Cheshire, The Church in the Confederate States (1912)).
So, the TEC was almost divided over slavery with a minority group organized to leave and almost seceded. Of course, it took a war to bring it back. Perhaps not so hopeful. 
This info should be included in the main Anglican realignment article because of the parallels. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 02:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Present crisis

message: Lets try talking about the present crisis again.  And, this time lets try to stay on topic!  If this is not the proper article for explaining the present crisis, then what article is?129.74.165.195 15:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is a tricky place to talk about the present crisis, because Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought: no personal essays, no discussion forums and no journalism. And, Wikipedia is not a soapbox: no opinion pieces on current affairs or politics. And, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball: Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation. So, the best thing for this page is background (historical, doctrinal, etc.) from both sides that is referenced to external and reliable (not blogs) sources. I'm not making any of this up. This is all Wikipedia policy. Be bold and add content. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 23:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Be bold. -- SECisek 17:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was bold, but in an even-handed manner.  Sadly, it will probably get reverted out soon and the debate will continue.  I think intellectual honesty demands that we make it clear that the issues of diocesan oversight and ownership of church property are fallout from the controversy, not the subject matter of it.  The realignment would not be occurring without the disagreement over gay and lesbian believers. - Mark Dixon 23:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I say be bolder and take the page to the GA level. see Wikipedia:Good article candidates and Wikipedia:What is a good article?. It would be a useful article if it were at the GA or better the FA level. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 02:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Present Crisis (Again) 

message: An article's lead should summarize the article. You should be able to read just the lead and know pretty much the whole story in summary. I've started on it, but I could use some help. Leadwind 04:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You would be correct, sir.  I thought the same.  Also, there's a missing indefinite article in the first line of the lead.  Prost! Hectard (talk) 03:42, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  lead