Talk:Shiloh Shepherd dog/Archive 3

message: I have just taken a quick look at the new page, and I still think that linking the ISSR with the *other* "registries" is deceitful!
This makes it sound like they are all the same :>(
<< 
The breed now has multiple registries, including, The International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR), The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR), the National Shiloh Breeders Registry (NSBR), the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA). There are two Shiloh Shepherd Dog Clubs, the Shilohs Shepherd Dog Club of America (SSDCA) and the International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club (ISSDC). For further information on all of the above Registries and Clubs please use the external links section of this article  >>
I am also amazed that ALL of the other "registries" are not listed???  If you are going to do *some* .. why not ALL?
I will try to write up something a bit more honest tonight.
Tina M. Barber 15:19, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Generic 

message: I don't have time for another long post, but I would like to share a site that you can use.  http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/shilohshepherd.htm
This site also includes 
ARBA = American Rare Breed Association
APRI = American Pet Registry Inc.
NKC = National Kennel Club
However, my research has proven that many other "registries" are also selling papers for Shiloh Shepherds!!  These include, but are not limited to .....
Other All-Breed Registries: 
The following is a list of some of the other all-breed registries in existence in North America — Caution should be exercised when dealing with a breeder who registers with any of these registries, especially when the breed is recognized by any of the major all-breed registries listed above. Many breeders use these registries because they are not able to meet the more demanding requirements of the CKC, AKC, or UKC. 
The information shown in quotations was taken directly from the registry's web site and speaks for itself as to the goals of some of these registries. 
American Canine Association (ACA) — "America's largest veterinary health tracking purebred canine registry." — Note: In the "Find A Puppy" section of their website, dog/puppy seekers are referred to pet/retail stores. Very little information is available on the website regarding their goals or mission as a registry. 
American Purebred Registry (APR) — The APR issues registration certificates for dogs and cats. They start a pedigree file with the information the owner sends them. Once APR accepts an application, a registration certificate is issued and the animal is considered registered. APR is a record keeping agency only and does not sponsor dog shows, field trials or competitions of any kind. On the application, the owner certifies that the dog or cat is a purebred representative of the breed. They take the owner's word for it and no proof is required. 
America's Pet Registry Inc. (APRI) — "An internationally recognized association of responsible pet owners, breeders, distributors, veterinarians, retailers, pet product manufacturers, and other concerned parties dedicated to the humane care of animals, the preservation of quality bloodlines, and the individual's right of pet ownership." APRI recently re-incorporated as a for-profit corporation. — The APRI promotes and encourages the sale of dogs and cats through distributors and retailers. "America's Pet Registry, Inc. was begun as insurance for the pet industry..." "APRI offers free dual registrations on dogs from reputable registration services to professional breeders. We classify a professional breeder as one who has three or more breeding females and who regularly sells puppies in the pet market." 
Animal Registry Unlimited (ARU) — Some statements found on the opening page of their website: "We register all pets and animals." "We guarantee that your pet or animal can be registered with us." "Providing a registry for the development of new breeds of useful pets and animals. Unlike many organizations we encourage the development of new breeds." 
Continental Kennel Club (CKC) — Note: This registry is also known as the CKC and should not be confused with the Canadian Kennel Club — These are two completely separate registries.) — The Continental Kennel Club recognizes 450 breeds as purebred. The Continental Kennel Club has a section known as "Miscellaneous Breed Registration" which allows for the crossing of two purebred parents of different breed types to produce hybrid puppies. Registered as MISC/BREED1-BREED2 and isolated from purebred registrations, they are distinguished from other breeds on registration certificates by having "non-purebred" printed on their registration certificates. In addition, the Continental Kennel Club has a section within their club for developing new breeds. Stock used for these breeding programs is listed in the "Development Class". The Continental Kennel Club has implemented a classified section on their site where club members can advertise their breeds. If you have a look at some of the more popular breeds such as the Cocker Spaniel, some of the kennels advertising there include breeders of cock-a-poos and other crosses. The Continental Kennel Club's website provides very little information regarding their goals or mission as a registry. For more information, however, there is a very thorough web page at: Continental Kennel Club FAQ. 
- Continental Kennel Club Rules & Regulations 
Dog Registry of America (DRA) — (Formerly the US Kennel Club) Statements directly from the Registry's home page: "DRA Registers rare breeds and exotic breeds. DRA Registers 'Unrecognized Breeds'" "DRA registers poodle crosses such as cocker-poos, peke-a-poo's as a separate class DRA takes the red tape out of registration."Tired of registration & documentation hassles? Starting your own blood line? Lost or never had papers? Developing new breeds? Breed not recognized? DRA Registers all purebred dogs. 
Federation of International Canines (FIC) — (Not to be confused with the FCI - Fédération Cynologique Internationale) — From the FIC's website: "A registry founded for the preservation and continuation of all native dog breeds, in their pure forms, from all countries around the world. Currently recognizing over four hundred breeds, the FIC acknowledges the very rare as well as the better known breeds." Additional information found on the website: "The FIC is a complete registry service including, registration of individual dogs, registration of litters, certified pedigrees, sanctioned shows and matches, and conformation championships. Working titles (obedience, tracking, good citizenship, agility, dog sport, temperament test, etc.) are awarded and may be earned at all FIC shows and all shows sanctioned by the FIC. "The FIC offers special registration programs for breeds which are still in the developmental stage." "The FIC's goal is to work with breeders and owners, not against them, providing registration services that they can depend on. All paperwork is handled promptly. "Multiple dog registration discounts are available." — Offering a special discount for volume breeders. 
International Progressive Dog Breeders' Alliance (IPDBA) — "IPDBA, founded in 1996 is the first registry of its kind, uniting breeders and enthusiasts of all breeds of dogs in one unique registry. The IPDBA is composed of Chartered Breed Associations. Each Chartered Breed Association has full control of their breed standard and the requirements for registration. The founders of the International Progressive Dog Breeders' Alliance believe that the breeding of all animals is an art form, and as such, breeders should have the freedom to express themselves and their vision for their breed(s) in their breeding programs." "The IPDBA currently recognizes more than 550 new and old breeds of dogs, making it the largest all-breed registry in the world." "IPDBA recognizes all breeds recognized for championship competition in at least one other association which has been established for the purposes of registration and exhibition of all breeds. IPDBA may accept any new breed regardless of ancestry for registration purposes provided it meets the criteria of being phenotypically different from an existing recognized breed. Acceptance may be denied if there is sound scientific evidence that there are inherent genetic problems deleterious to the health of the dogs in question which cannot be eliminated though selective breeding. Non-purebred dogs are not eligible for registration unless registered as a foundation for a breed." 
National Kennel Club (NKC) — "Since 1970 the National Kennel Club (NKC) has operated to help dog owners register any purebred dog. The NKC has been fair and impartial to all breeders, dog owners, and the various breeds they represent. With the NKC rare breeds may be shown with equal status as well as the major breeds. The NKC licenses all-breed dog shows, events for Coon Dogs, Beagles, Squirrel Dogs, Bird dogs, Fox dogs, Licensed Dog Kennels, Show Judges, and other dog related-events." 
North American Purebred Dog Registry (NAPDR) — "The NAPDR will register all breeds of dogs. Over 300 breeds of dogs are eligible to be registered with the NAPDR. A purebred dog that does not have registration papers may be registered with the NAPDR." If you are not 100% sure of the dog's breed, you need to send in a side view picture with the registration application. A "commercial rate" is available to breeders of five or more adult dogs of breeding age and who sell puppies. 
United All Breed Registry (UABR) — "[United] is a registry service so unique that it has received two U.S. Patents, and is used to register individual animals, breeding stock, and litters; and will compliment any other registry service from the rare breeds to the AKC breeds." The UABR promotes the sale of pets through retailers — from their "About Us" page: "UNITED recommends consumers looking for a pet be advised by professional retailers who can help them make a more informed decision and can match the right breed to their situation." and "UNITED promotes retailers as a reliable source of healthy pets. We sight the "Source of Acquisition Study" published in the "Journal Of The American Veterinary Medical Association" as factual documentation that the health of puppies purchased from retailers are equal and in many ways superior to those attained from other sources." 
Universal Kennel Club International (UKCI) — The following comes directly from the registry's "about us" page: "Universal specializes in registering purebred canines of all breeds and fully servicing their needs. We also register poos, hybrids and rarebreeds under special registration programs. Universal is becoming a leader in many areas of the pet industry..." and from other sections of the web site: "Universal Unique Registry System for any pure breed dog that for whatever reason is not registered in a litter or either of its sire/dam were not registered with any registry or if perhaps for whatever reason you were denied registry and your dog is at least one year old." Universal also provides bulk discounts to breeders. 
World Kennel Club (WKC) — "The WKC® registers all dogs that are pure-bred only, which may or may not be registered with any other kennel club or those that have no previous history of their Sire or Dam." — Very little information is available on the website. 
World Wide Kennel Club (WWKC) — "WWKC's objectives include a policy to adopt and enforce uniform rules and regulations for the improvement of all breeds. It addresses people interested in exhibiting, breeding, registering, purchasing, and selling dogs. All rules and regulations have been designed to encourage and protect the interest of its members..." "WWKC is a major registry service; registering purebred, pedigreed dog breeds, including international and rare breeds..." "The World Wide Kennel Club, Ltd. encourages breed improvement by requiring the same basic adherence to breed standards as other registry services require. However, WWKC goes one step further by offering International Registrations for all countries. WWKC recognizes and is willing to work with all registries and Clubs that are working toward the improvement of any breed. Owners of any dog registered with any other registry are invited to register and exhibit in all WWKC dog shows and obedience trials." "The WWKC recognizes all registries." "Any purebred, new breed or rare breed dog eligible for registration in any kennel club will be eligible for registration in WWKC." 
THE ABOVE DOCUMENTATION WAS TAKEN FROM http://canadasguidetodogs.com/breedregistries.htm   Tina M. Barber 22:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  UPDATE 

message: I'm unclear on Tina Barber's point here. The point in question for the Wiki article is whether her registry, the ISSR, should be given more status as a registry than the TSSR, NSBR, or SSBA. But she just goes on trying to prove that there are other registries out there that will register Shiloh Shepherds. That has nothing to do with the article. The list of registries that she provides are not recognized as the more legitimate all- breed registries such as AKC, UKC, CKC, FCI, but neither is her own ISSR. As a matter of fact, the paperwork for the ISSR is processed and printed by one of the ISSR's top breeders in their home, after being edited by the breed founder herself. If anything, TB's posts just further prove the point of the non-ISSR people, that ISSR is no more recognized by any true all-breed registry than TSSR, NSBR, or SSBA.
Gloria 4.248.44.59 14:31, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As has been requested multiple times, please provide any source or reference for these claims. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 19:07, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: re:generic/UPDATE

message: I have confirmed that the following organizations WILL issue 'registration papers' for Shiloh Shepherds, therefor I request that they be added to the list of "registries" that the Wikipedia has compiled.
ACA - American Canine Association http://www.acavet.com/  
APR- American Purebred Registry  http://www.americanpurebred.com/
APRI - American Pet Registry Inc. http://www.aprpets.org/main/index.php
ARU - Animal Registry Unlimited http://friendpages.com/cgi-bin/public/pages/cover.cgi?pageid=animalregistry
CKC - Continental Kennel Club http://www.continentalkennelclub.com/
DRA - Dog Registry of America  http://www.dogpapers.com/
FIC -  Federation of International Canines http://www.ficregistry.org/mainpage.html
INPDBA - International Progressive Dog Breeders Alliance http://ipdba.8k.com/
NAPDR - North American Purebred Dog Registry http://www.napdr.com/
UABR -  United All Breed Registry http://www.unitedregistry.com/
UKCI -  Universal Kennel Club International http://www.universalkennel.com/
WKC - World Kennel Club http://www.worldkennelclub.com/
WWKC - World Wide Kennel Club http://www.worldwidekennel.qpg.com/
All I ask is that these be included in your list of "registries" that are willing to issue papers for these dogs!  I think this is only fair .. that ALL should be represented!!
However, I do request that you mention that the ISSR, Inc. (formed in 1991) was the original registry started by the Breed Founder.
Thankyou  Tina M. Barber 15:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, I have to point out "I have confirmed" does not meet the standards for inclusion in Wikipedia.  Also, are't the registries currently listed only registering Shilo Shepherds, or am I reading incorrectly?  What use could there be to listing all dog registries in the article? .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 16:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

text: In fact, only one of those registries you provided links to lists the Shiloh as a recognized breed and two others state that they will register any dog/cat/animal you send a registration for.  I have no idea what this is supposed to add to the article. Can you please explain why you'd want to add them?  .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 16:26, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Lets try to avoid discussing other editors and focus on the article please.  Also, it helps if you sign your posts using ~~~~.  Thanks! .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 20:47, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Might I point out that it was Tina who suggested we add all these other registries? .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 20:10, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's end this foolishness, OK? 

message: I am confused.  In Ms. Barber's entry above, "Let's end this foolishness, OK?", she listed numerous "registries" and said: "All I ask is that these be included in your list of "registries" that are willing to issue papers for these dogs! I think this is only fair .. that ALL should be represented!!" AND in her first entry under "Straw Poll-Discussion" she said: "I think that EACH registry willing to issue papers for the Shiloh Shepherd should be included!!"  
But in her 2nd entry in "Straw Poll-Discussion" above, she says: "If you read this & the ISSR rules carefully, dogs that do NOT meet the specific requirements set by the ISSR cannot get BREEDING PAPERS ... PERIOD!!."
Yes, this does seem entirely contradictory to her earlier two statements. Maybe what she meant to say was "ISSR dogs that do NOT meet the specific requirements set by the ISSR cannot get ISSR BREEDING PAPERS...PERIOD!!!."  If that's the case, okay, that's a rule of the ISSR and the NSBR, TSSR, and SSBA registries/clubs respect her right to determine her registry/club rules as she sees fit and are very comfortable with the idea that they no longer want their dogs affiliated with the ISSR. But how is that particular ISSR requirement post at all relevant or appropriate to the Straw Poll (i.e. the listing of registries in this article)particularly in light of the fact that Ms. Barber has already very clearly "voted" twice that she would like to see all registries listing Shiloh Shepherds be included?
I also respectfully support requesting that Ms. Barber calmly clarify her position one way or the other and that any other extraneous remarks (by anyone), not related directly to your specific questions in the Straw Poll, be posted in a more appropriate place.  This way, we can all view the poll results clearly and move positively and respectfully forward towards resolution.  Thank you.69.173.135.114Miles D.
:Actually the Discussion section is just for discussing the poll/proposal, so the comments don't hurt anything there.  Actually, she hasn't voted on it yet -- in any case, polls are really only useful for showing a consensus which we're starting to see.  I'm going to try to direct a few other outside editors this way and get some opinions from people who haven't been involved in the dispute. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 19:34, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Jareth: Question re: the Straw Poll "Discussion" Section

message: I'm sorry but the numbers don't seem to add up. After reading your reply that 
"Wendy Fullerton Windsong Kennels/Raid the Wind Kennels. I have been involved with Shiloh Shepherds from the beginning plus two years previous while they were still registered as German Shepherds. WindsongKennels 16:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What I left is still rather uncivil, please review WP:EQ for suggestions on how to politely discuss the article -- please be aware that personal attacks are absolutely not acceptable and may result in being blocked. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 20:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Attn: Moderators.  How unfortunate and sad that a member of the ISSR/SSDCA has chosen to resort to such an inappropriate personal attack. Please remove this garbage immediately and the poster along with it. Thank you. 69.173.135.114M. Duffy
 I AGREE JARETH, PLEASE CONTINUE TO DELETE PERSONAL ATTACKS. 
 "M.DUFFY", DO WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT THE AUTHOR IS A MEMBER OF
 THE ISSR/SSDCA? NO WE DO NOT! PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING AN 
 UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIM. EVEN IF SIGNED AS A MEMBER WE ALL KNOW THAT
 NO ONE PERSON REPRESENTS THE ENTIRE MEMBERSHIP OR CLUB. THAT WAS A
 CHEAP SHOT M.DUFFY. THE SAME COULD BE SAID OF MEMBERS OF THE OTHER 
 REGISTRIES AND CLUBS.
 70.35.121.154 02:25, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, Willie, enough with locking your Shift key.  Re: Your constant use of UPPERCASE LETTERS, Wikipedia (see Wiki's "Talk Page Guidelines-Layout)says "These are considered SHOUTING, and contribute to the view that you are RANTING!!!!!". Please, we can all hear you just fine in "lower case".  Thank you. 69.173.135.114 07:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question for Windsong /RaidtheWind 

message: Jareth,
I would like to clarify my earlier point and say again that the "history" section of the GSD Wiki page does not list every registry that registers a dog as a GSD. Once again, it is limited to the name of the breed founder, when he developed his dogs, what his goal/vision was for starting the breed, and the registry he started to keep records of his dogs.  I have also looked at numerous other breed pages on the Wiki and note that the history section is limited to the history of how the breeds originated.  
Here is a proposed version for the history section of the Shiloh Shepherd, based on how the GSD page is done (and in reviewing other breed pages).
The Shiloh Shepherd was developed by breed founder Tina Barber of Shiloh Shepherds Kennel in New York state in a sustained effort over the last third of the 20th century. Her goal was to preserve the type of German Shepherd she remembered as a child in Germany. Those dogs were big, mentally sound, and beautiful. In 1990, Barber separated her dogs from the AKC and in 1991 created the International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR) (based on Von Stephanitz's SV) as the official governing body for the breed.
As the breed gained recognition and popularity near the turn of the millenium, new registries and clubs began to form, each having their own vision for the future of the breed.
The existing registries and clubs can all be listed in the external links section of the article.
People will be free to visit them and make their own decision from there.
SandraSS 18:17, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That does fit the format of most of the other dog breed articles.  What does everyone else think?  Would this be an acceptable proposal?  Obviously the consensus is swinging in favor of having the registries included -- could we do it in this manner like the other dog articles and give readers the chance to form their own opinion based only on the links instead of what we might write (which doesn't seem like it will ever be NPOV)? .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 14:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Suggestion Clarified 

message: Article says that breed attempts to resemble "Hobo" dogs but no info is given on what those are/were. Can someone explain?  Thanks.  Elf | Talk 19:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: After some googling, I think I found it - these dogs are some GSDs from The Littlest Hobo, and it seems that they are featured in a series of dog training and education books by Charles Eisenmann , I updated the article a tiny bit to reflect this, but someone who knows more should update it accordingly to clarify.  - Trysha (talk) 20:08, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Hobo dogs question

message: First of all, I am not neutral. I am a Life Member, since 1991, of the SSDCA (Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America). I have known Tina Barber, aka "Ma Shiloh", the Breed Founder of the Shiloh Shepherd, since the mid-1980s. 
At that time, I was disappointed in the way the German Shepherd Dog breed had deteriorated, and I heard that there were a few breeders still producing "old style" GSDs, and that one of them was near Buffalo, NY. That was all I had to go on, but I managed to track Tina down and began corresponding with her. 
I was impressed by what she was trying to accomplish, as well as by her knowledge of genetics and experience in dog breeding, and by her passionate belief in her own vision. 
Although I researched and investigated other breeders, after visiting Tina's kennel in 1990 I decided to have her provide me with a puppy. Tina and I had a long discussion of what I wanted in terms of size, coat, coloring, markings, and temperament, and she delivered exactly what I wanted. That pup ("Buick") turned out to be the handsomest, smartest, best dog I have ever owned. 
I don't think anyone can dispute that Tina Barber is the Breed Founder, and that without her there would be no Shiloh Shepherd. 
I can understand why she gets emotional over these disputes, because the Shiloh Shepherd is her vision, her passion and her life's work. I can understand her lashing out at those who compromise that vision and threaten to undermine that life's work.  
When I got my Shiloh Shepherd from Tina, I gave her my word that he would not be allowed to mate without her express approval. 
Quite simply, that should be her privilege as the Breed Founder. Dogs that are produced with her approval and her blessing are registered with the ISSR (International Shiloh Shepherd Registry) . That is the original registry for Shiloh Shepherds. 
Any dog that is NOT registered with the ISSR was produced without the approval and blessing of the Breed Founder, or that approval was revoked because the breeder failed in some way to keep to the agreement he or she made with Tina. I kept my word to Tina, as did those breeders whose dogs are registered with the ISSR.
Those who did not keep their word, and were therefore ineligible to register their dogs with the ISSR, have found other ways to keep producing and selling "Shiloh Shepherds", including starting their own registries. There are all kinds of rationalizations for doing this, but none of those change the fact that they have done so AGAINST the wishes of the Breed Founder.
How can dogs be called "Shiloh Shepherds" if they are produced WITHOUT the blessing and approval of the person who "invented" the Shiloh Shepherd? To call such dogs Shiloh Shepherds is just an attempt to benefit from Tina Barber's name and reputation, without her permission.
If a breeder wants to breed without the approval of the Breed Founder, why not just call those dogs something other than "Shiloh Shepherd"? To say that they have a "right" to that name because it's not copyrighted may be technically legal, but it is certainly not ETHICAL. It shows a lack of respect for the person who started it all.  
And, as the person who started it all, Tina Barber, and she alone, should determine the direction in which the Shiloh Shepherd should go.
To the Person Considering a Shiloh Shepherd, I would say the following: Never mind all the accusations and insults that are traded back and forth; they don't change the fact that there are breeders who operate WITH the approval and blessing and consent of the Breed Founder, and those who DON'T. 
Registry with the ISSR is what makes a dog an authentic and genuine Shiloh Shepherd.
Everything else may be a very close replica, but it is not genuine. Nowadays, most people who sell "counterfeit" or "replica" merchandise are required to disclose that fact. In the case of dogs sold as "Shiloh Shepherds", it's the ISSR registration that provides proof that you're getting "the real thing".
Consider this: Most people know that the most celebrated violin-maker of all time was Antonio Stradivari. 
A genuine "Stradivarius" violin commands a very high price, so much so that many other violin-makers have copied his work and labeled their instruments "Stradivarius". The copies may be decent instruments, but they have no connection with Stradivari and are therefore not genuine. They merely trade on the name and reputation of Stradivari. 
It takes a detailed examination by a violin expert for a prospective buyer to determine if an instrument that is called a Stradivarius is, indeed, a genuine Stradivarius. For a prospective buyer to determine if a dog is, indeed, a genuine Shiloh Shepherd, all it takes is insistence that the dog is registered with the ISSR.
Stu Tarlowe 22:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  To the Person Considering a Shiloh Shepherd  -- by Stu Tarlowe 

message: mr. tarlowe, that is definitely a very nice personal testimonial about the breed founder, but does not provide facts, but point of view. im sure some will agree with you, while others will not. some will read more into these discussions through the archives and form a different opinion. hopefully if nothing more it will guide the public to research this breed closely prior to chosing where to get their shiloh. read about the issr, read about the issdc, and then they can draw their own conclusions. regardless i respect your passion about the breed.
you state "those who did not keep their word, and were therefore ineligible to register their dogs with the ISSR, have found other ways to keep producing and selling "shiloh shepherds", including starting their own registries". why not elaborate more on that claim you just made. otherwise, it's point of view aimmed towards those not part of the issr group.
The facts speak for themselves! http://www.shilohshepherds.com/buyersBeware/registyComparisons.htm Tina M. Barber 13:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In all honesty, most of the general public looking for a GSD as a pet knows nothing about the SV. What you have pointed out is that people have the right to make a choice. By including the ISSR, NSBR, TSSR, and SSBA along with links to their respective websites, they will have the information provided by those registries to make the decision on their own. 66.188.54.68 14:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  response to mr. tarlowe 

message: I would like someone to show me ONE dog 'breed' that exists without a Breed Standard!!
I certainly hope that everyone here understands that the Breed Standard represents the "blueprint" of what that "breed" stands for, and what the breeders are striving towards.  It is the guide that all dogs should be judged by, and all mating pairs should be selected for.
In the real world, the "breed clubs" are formed to uphold the standard, and work together toward promoting THAT breed.  How can you have a club without a breed standard??  How can you operate 3-4-5 registries without a Breed Standard??
I would like to suggest that the Wiki clearly link the ONLY Breed Standard that has been "recognized" for this breed (as per ARBA)  http://www.arba.org/ShilohShepherd1BS.htm  to this article .. clearly stating who wrote it, the name of the club & registry that represents it, etc...  What's so hard about THAT?
If the other clubs/registries want to be listd, they should also provide THEIR breed standard & the LEGITIMATE organization that has recognized it, and as of when ... that's all I am asking for!!  HONEST REPRESENTATION!  Tina M. Barber
:Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds for the currently accepted way to include registries.  All registries considered "other" registries are link in the External links section so that one may go there to view their standards; this is in order to keep the article to-the-point -- can you imagine listing all the registries standards for the GSD for example?. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 16:30, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Breed Standard 

message: ms barbar, im not overly fond of how you decided to post within my past post (response to mr tarlowe) and made the discussion very difficult for someone to read.  jareht if you can please clean it up to the original form and add ms barbars comments at the bottom it would be helpful to those seeing it here and can follow what is being said and by who.
in response to "leaving a breed this size at this stage in the hands of an individual would seem foolish. let's just say something happened where the founder was no longer able to continue, for whatever reason, by your statements the breed would be over since only the breed founder has the ability to call a shiloh a shiloh. unless the breed founder is methuselah our time here is short."
you stated "hogwash! all issr breeders follow the same recipe, and lisa is only 28 years old, a lot younger then most of you .. and knows as much about these dogs as I do ... she has been living it since birth!! furthermore, i honestly don't know of any *young* breed still under development that has had to deal with all these "registries" before it was even set!! tina m. barber"
so by that response, regardless of the many posts on this discussion by issr affiliated editors that claim that "only the breed founder can say what is and what is not a shiloh" and "only the breed founder has the vision" you have stated that someone other than the breed founder can determine what is and isnt a shiloh.  it doesnt matter who that person is, you have stated that someone else can carry this the breed in your absence.  that is already taking place outside of the issr. and also, since you state that all issr breeders follow the same recipe and the heads of the various non-issr registries were all formerly issr breeders they too follow the same recipe.
in reponse to "for whatever reason the founders of the three non-issr regstries and issdc left are their business and thankfully the breed is stronger for it, and will ensure a successful future of the shiloh shepherd beyond our years. i'd recommend against making statements like the one you did as they are counter productive and without substance."
you also stated "this is not an *attack* just a fact ... i took another look at the list of issr breeders & compared it to those in your camps & have determined that ours are younger then yours!!! so what kind of sanity does this statement make?? besides, how long do you think the "breed" would survive if dozens of people are selling gsd mutts as shiloh shepherds?? tina m. barber 14:13, 30 december 2005 (utc)"
i believe that you have misunderstood the point that was being made in the original commment.  the comment questioning what is more likely to ensure the longevity of the breed - an individual that has claimed to be the only one who knows what a shiloh is or where it's going, or a group/club made up of many users committed to the same cause.  had nothing to do with the average age of breeders.  out of curiosity did you include the 23 of the 28 most recent issr breeders that have never produced a litter or only the active ones.  i was also unaware that you know the dates of birth of ever non issr breeders.
this is point of view, i do not care why the current non-issr registry founders left the issr.  that is their business and none of mine.  for all i know it could have been something as unrelated to the dogs as religious beliefs (with the heavy christian theme in the issr they could be muslim hindu jewish and felt awkward with their God being mixed with their dog), it could have been for personal dispute reasons and nothing to do with the rules, whatever it was it was their business and not mine or anyone elses.
someone should add up every link youve provided to your own sites here.  it must be in the hundreds by now (could also add up every exclamation pt).  wall of shame, broken hearted breed founder, "licensed" breed matrix are all interesting but are no less self serving that anyone elses personal website.  it is nice that you find time to go to shows and try and find a bad frame or two on these non-issr dogs when its rare to see an issr dog out at the shows.  i suppose if there were more issr shilohs showing non-issr folks can take a few hunred photos and hope for a bad shot - sort of like the paparazzi of the dog world but i doubt most would do that and are too focused on their own dogs to worry about someone elses.
i think someone previously stated something about the canadas dog guide site.  i think someone mentioned a while back that these are all advertising sites and not research facilities.  they take and post what they are given and doesnt make them neutral.  hopefully after this wiki article is resolve it can be used to correct sites like the ones you mention. Gwyllgi 17:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  response to ms barbar 

message: you just stated "once the shiloh shepherd breed is finished no one gives a hoot how many registries spring up. Like with the gsb and other breeds. But, as has been stated quite adamantly by ms.barber and the issr, the breed is still under development."
however when i raised that point yesterday and questioned what would happen in her absense should be be unable to continue with the breed the response by ms barbar was that her daughter or any of the issr could continue since they have the recipe.  since the non issr registries were founded from issr original breeders many many years ago (i use many many years since that is what you stated a bit ago about the health survey which was done in 2001) how is it that they are incapable of what lisa, karen, or the current issr would continue with in ms barbars absense.  yes you have stated the breed is in development and others are claiming it is not as of 1991.
you then stated "once any breeder decided to leave the issr and breed, they cannot call their dogs "shiloh shepherds"."
why not.  again since ms barbar said the issr breeders have the recipe and the current non issr breeders are using that recipe, then why should they not be called shiloh shepherds.  only difference is they are being done by people who dont pay to have a ficticious license issued, pay to be listed on a matrix, pay to have an ler done, or kick back half a litter to the original kennel.  
what ties in with your claim is that no one previously answered my previous comment on how a dog registered with the issr can leave the issr and then be treated as a "non-shiloh".  
i just read the canadas dog guide article and see if has a very high number of links to the issr.  i am interested to know what was their primary source for the article.  as i said before once this is done it will be able to be used as the breed artcile for advertising sites like canadas dog guide.  so rather than marketing people typing a quick note on a breed provided from a biased source the wikipedia article will be used as the example to be followed by these sites.  as someone mentioned before perhaps this similar site (and advertising webpage) should be used as the foundation []  Gwyllgi 18:02, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  response to mr lass 

message: This seems to have been lost in the continuous banter.  So once again, here is a proposed version for the history section of the Shiloh Shepherd, based on how the GSD page is done (and in reviewing other breed pages on the Wiki site).  I have copied this from my earlier post and have included the reply from Jareth.  Can we please focus on the article?
The Shiloh Shepherd was developed by breed founder Tina Barber of Shiloh Shepherds Kennel in New York state in a sustained effort over the last third of the 20th century. Her goal was to preserve the type of German Shepherd she remembered as a child in Germany. Those dogs were big, mentally sound, and beautiful. In 1990, Barber separated her dogs from the AKC and in 1991 created the International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR) (based on Von Stephanitz's SV) as the official governing body for the breed.
As the breed gained recognition and popularity near the turn of the millenium, new registries and clubs began to form, each having their own vision for the future of the breed.
The existing registries and clubs can all be listed in the external links section of the article. People will be free to visit them and make their own decision from there.
SandraSS 18:17, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That does fit the format of most of the other dog breed articles. What does everyone else think? Would this be an acceptable proposal? Obviously the consensus is swinging in favor of having the registries included -- could we do it in this manner like the other dog articles and give readers the chance to form their own opinion based only on the links instead of what we might write (which doesn't seem like it will ever be NPOV)? .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 14:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion for the History section - Again 

message: "Unsigned Poster" said: "Could you please explain why you felt it necessary to move the ESSR link added to the registries section to the bottom of the list?  It has been agreed upon that the ISSR can be listed first, since the ESSR is a partner of the ISSR in Europe, the link was placed secondly."
My response:
Please see Contents #1 Dispute(s)"-This is the proposal that has been in front of the group for discussion (i.e. Inclusion of the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSR registries and ISSDC and SSDCA clubs), per Jareth's request and her/his efforts to move this article "in good faith" toward consensus and resolution.
Upon viewing the article last evening, it appeared that it had been extensively edited (including the new, obviously controversial addition of a new supposed registry).  Before this occurred, and from the time the Straw poll came before us, there had been requests and tacit agreements to refrain from additional edits to the article until such time we could reach some sort of agreements.  And, in "good faith", contributors adhered to these requests/agreements.
It is my opinion that some of these changes last evening were made:
:: 1)surreptitiously [done, made, or acquired by stealth clandestinely synonym:SECRET -http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=surreptitiously]
:: 2)without regard for the common courtesy, critical to the success of this communal effort, that "new" information be discussed prior to its inclusion in an article, in which all contributors have vested interests.
:: 2)without extending the opportunity for other contributors to pose the same valid and reasonable questions as have been previously discussed about the ISSR, NSBR, TSSR and SSBA, such as to whether or not the ESSR qualifies, by definition, as a "registry" of any sort (i.e. is it a registry?, is it a Shiloh registry, is it a "satellite" of the ISSR registry and the ISSR TCCP database similar to a regional club)......much less importantly, where it should be placed.
In response to this, forgive me, "lame-o" bully tactic, my choice was to either remove it completely or edit in such a way that it remains for now while the group discusses its appropriateness for both inclusion and future placement. I decided to take the high road, butI relocated it for the following reasons:
 
::Consensus - The NSBR, TSSR, SSBA and ISSR registries have been thoroughly discussed among all contributors and their inclusion has been affirmed by consensus.  The ESSR was not included in in the NSBR,TSSR, SSBA Proposal nor, for that matter, has it's inclusion even been discussed in this forum at all that I can see, prior to now.  Until consensus is reached, it should not have a prominent position among the others on the list.
::Chronology - Since this has been a major contention of the ISSR/SSDCA for mention in this article in all ways (i.e. they were first and should be mentioned first, both in the article itself and on the registry/club lists) throughout this entire discussion and, since the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA have agreed to this, it would makes sense, in that case, that the ESSR be placed last as it is the most recently "established".
::Geography - The Shiloh breed was founded in the U.S. by an active American based breeder and the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA and ISSR registries are American based organizations, whereas the ESSR is European based.  It is logical again that its placement follow these registries.
::Size - Again, lacking any presented info (much less, verifiable info) before the group re: this entity, and considering its only recent establishment, it can be reasonably assumed that the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA and ISSR are probably larger organizations than the ESSR.
I feel I must say, at this point, that although many contributors have tried to be reasonable, and to adhere to some code of good conduct throughout this passionate discussion.....bullying, fanaticism, vandalism, stealth and/or a refusal to negotiate just aren't going to fly with most of us in this forum.
Finally, It is standard etiquette in forums and discussion groups that some type of signature tag be attached to postings, in order for posters to "refer" and respond to each other's messages and to allow for some semblance of "order"  on the page.  
It doesn't matter what "name" is used (pen, nickname, whatever) and an IP address is also fine. Just something to differentiate your posts from others.  Obviously you want to contribute to the group, so could you please assist your fellow contributors and sign your posts. Thank you69.173.135.114 22:43, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article content edit - response

message: (Note: The following is not a judgment of Shiloh Shepherd breeding practices. It is a commentary on LOGIC !)
1) Ms. Barber, throughout the years and throughout all of your communications here, and everywhere, you have more than repeatedly stated and written that the Shiloh Shepherd was "invented" through your dog breeding program, whereby you used certain particular German Shepherds (which you bred in your German Shepherd Shiloh Kennel) and certain particular Malamute type dogs.  Your claim as a "founder" is based on the premise that in order for dogs to be Shiloh Shepherds they must have this heritage (i.e. pedigree) which "proves" they are "genuine" and "unique" and "different" from both German Shepherds and any other dogs. 
(see: http://www.shilohshepherds.info/whatIsAShilohShepherd.htm)
::And so:
::a) Judy said: "Fisher’s 'Cisco' Kid Spectacular (GSD with full 'AKC papers only') was shown as, and fathered a litter of full Shiloh Shepherds puppies with full Shiloh rights and full breeding papers." [see Content #28-"Ms Barber again"]
::b) And 'You replied': "If you take the time to research his pedigree you will find dozens of names with the word SHILOH in them. In other words, I bred his sire Shiloh's Easy Rider, who was whelped by Shiloh's Kara Lobo of Emmview, who was out of Shiloh-Emmviews Grey Express, etc... etc... on his dams side her sire was Shiloh Guardian's Still Smokin, who was out of Shiloh's Smoke-in-Szar, out of DiMar-Shiloh's Princess Leia, both out of Ensomheds Luke von Shiloh going back to Shiloh Lin-Mar's Czarne Mishka, and Shiloh's Hope of Perfection, that was out of Shiloh's Lady von Glendhenmere, etc....etc...etc..... That's why 'he qualified as a *SHILOH* because his PEDIGREE PROVED IT!!!...'"[see Content #28-"Ms Barber again"]
::c) And ShenandoahShiloh said: "Heart be still, finally, it is admitted, it is the pedigree that makes a Shiloh a Shiloh, not what registry it belongs with. Thank you for agreeing with what everyone has been saying all along." 
::d) The logic you use to justify that Cisco and his offspring are "genuine" Shiloh Shepherds is:
:::Even though Cisco was not ISSR registered when shown and bred as a Shiloh Shepherd:
:::-Because you established the "genuine" Shiloh Shepherds using certain particular Shiloh Kennel German Shepherd/Malamute lines.
:::-And because Cisco and his offspring were bred from these same Shiloh Kennel German Shepherd lines
:::-Cisco and his offspring are therefore "genuine" Shiloh Shepherds.
2)Ms. Barber, throughout the years and throughout all of your communications here, and everywhere, you have also more than repeatedly stated and written that "only dogs having a certificate of registration issued by the ISSR may be considered a Shiloh Shepherd."
:(ISSR website home page: http://www.shilohshepherds.org/issr,inc.htm)
::And so:
::a) A few years ago you decided that your Shiloh lines needed what you called "new blood", to reinvigorate and improve the Shiloh Shepherd breed.
  
::b) You acquired a beautiful German Shepherd dog. He is an Altdeusche Schäferhunde, which is a German line.  His name is '"Artus"'.
::c) Artus is not the offspring of ISSR dogs (neither ISSR registered Shiloh Shepherd dogs nor ISSR registered German Sheperd dogs) 
::d) 'Artus's heritage does not reflect the Shiloh Shepherd breed "stock" (as you refer to them) which you used to establish the Shiloh Shepherd breed'.
::e) You bred Artus as an "outcross" to some of your Shiloh Shepherd female dogs and produced puppies.  These dogs have gone on to produce new generations. 
::f) You registered Artus, and continue to register many of his offspring, in the ISSR.
::g) 'You stated that Artus and his offspring are "genuine" Shiloh Shepherds.' (see: http://www.shilohshepherds.org/shilohs/shilohs.htm -and- http://www.shilohshepherds.com/artus!.htm) 
::h) The logic you use to justify that Artus and his offspring are "genuine" Shiloh Shepherds is:
:::Even though Artus did not possess the "heritage" which distinguishes a Shiloh Shepherd:
:::-Because "only dogs having a certificate of registration issued by the ISSR may be considered a Shiloh Shepherd" (from the homepage of the ISSR website http://www.shilohshepherds.org/issr,inc.htm).
:::-And, because you registered Artus and many of his offspring in the ISSR
:::-Artus and his offspring are therefore "genuine" Shiloh Shepherds.
Based on your first assertion (#1 above): 
 
"Genuine" Shiloh Shepherds are dogs whose heritage must originate from your German Shepherd Shiloh Kennel (GSDs/Malamutes)
:We should conclude that:
::Artus (and consequently, his offspring) can't be "genuine Shiloh Shepherds".
Based on your second assertion (#2 above)
"Only dogs having a certificate of registration issued by the ISSR are "genuine Shiloh Shepherds".
:We should conclude that:
::Cisco (and consequently, his offspring) can't be "genuine Shiloh Shepherds".
So, for us to to believe your contentions that both Artus (and his offspring) and Cisco (and his offspring) are "genuine Shiloh Shepherds" the following must be true:
::Some dogs that are NOT registered in the ISSR, are "genuine Shiloh Shepherds".
:::(If this is the case, you you might want to consider changing your website)
:::::AND
::Some dogs that DO NOT have Shiloh Kennel GSD heritage, are "genuine Shiloh Shepherds". 
'Therefore, Ms Barber, when you argue that Shiloh Shepherds registered with the NSBR, TSSR, or SSBA cannot possibly be "genuine" BECAUSE they are either not registered with the ISSR and/or may have pedigrees containing dogs who do not have Shiloh Kennel GSD heritage, your logic is both seriously flawed and completely hypocritical.'
Checkmate. :)Miles
Sorry Miles, but your mixing apples & oranges again ... maybe because you want to bore everyone reading this foolishness??
Why don't you go to http://www.shilohshepherds.info/shilohShepherdsWhatRThey.htm that page clearly explains what criteria WAS used in selecting breeding stock!  Many of the dogs in my kennel did NOT make it (that's coming in my NEXT article!) those that did were used to set the foundations for this breed that is STILL UNDER DEVELOPMENT  via MY recipe, not via *your* papers making every GSD mix an *instant* "shiloh" just so that you can get more money for the pups!!!   Tina M. Barber 21:58, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Ms. Barber - Logical Conclusions I

message: Ms. Barber said: "Sorry Miles, but your mixing apples & oranges again... maybe because you want to bore everyone reading this foolishness?? Why don't you go to [link removed] that page clearly explains what criteria WAS used in selecting breeding stock! Many of the dogs in my kennel did NOT make it (that's coming in my NEXT article!) those that did were used to set the foundations for this breed that is STILL UNDER DEVELOPMENT via MY recipe, not via *your* papers making every GSD mix an *instant* "shiloh" just so that you can get more money for the pups!!!" (see Content #32 "Ms. Barber-Logical Conclusions I")
Ms. Barber:
:I don't have any "papers" other than the ones lining my bird's
:(Miss B. Cheex) cage.
:I can't "get more money for the pups", or any money for the pups for that matter, ...because I am not a breeder.
:Although fully eligible and certainly invited/welcomed, I have never participated in, nor submitted registration paperwork, to either the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, or ISSDC.
:And I have read your site thoroughly (You said above: "...that page clearly explains what criteria WAS used in selecting breeding stock!"), and many of the dogs' names referenced throughout are particularly VERY VERY familiar to me, because they are "closely related" to a very important member of my immediate family.  
:This wonderful family member is MY "backyard, mixed-breed mutt" (who is neutered, because I choose not to breed dogs)" and he is the son of:
::Father: Frequent Flyer of Liberty ("Freddie").
:::Freddie is YOUR ISSR #1 Champion, 2-time Grand Victor (1998 and 1999), the "First", on one of only two? dogs to ever achieve this recognition by YOU in the history of YOUR registry and YOUR breed, a Multi Best in Show Winner and ISSR National Select dog.
:::YOU say:
:::"Shiloh Shepherd Champions - The Best of the Best"
:::(see YOUR webpage: http://www.shilohshepherds.org/champions.htm)
:::YOU proclaim:
:::"1998 Grand Victor" and "1999 Grand Victor"
:::(see YOUR webpage: http://www.shilohshepherds.org/98champs.htm)
:::(see YOUR webpage: http://www.shilohshepherds.org/99champs.htm)
::Mother: Sky's Savannah of Windsong ("Savvy").
:::Savvy is the daughter of those two dogs YOU have acclaimed as the #1 and #2 HIGHEST RANKED "Register of Merit" (ROM) Shiloh Shepherds in the history of the ISSR registry. Their names are ISSR Grand Victor BIONIC BLACK SMOKE OF ZION (Shep) and WINDSONG'S KATRINKA D'SHILOH (Trinka), a bitch YOU bred and co-owned at one time.
:::On YOUR website, YOU say: "...ROM proves he can produce excellent progeny. The more R.O.M. points a male accumulates, the greater his value to our breed!!"
:::(see YOUR webpage: http://www.shilohshepherds.info/intro.htm)
:::On YOUR website, YOU also say: "This (ROM) is a title to be coveted...it clearly shows that the dog can produce quality."
:::(see YOUR webpage:  http://www.shilohshepherds.info/romListing.htm)
:::As the #1 ROM producing dog in the ISSR's history, Shep accumulated 21,980 ROM points in his lifetime. As the #2 ROM producing dog in the ISSR's history, Trinka accumulated 14,735 ROM points in her lifetime, both far exceeding the #3 dog accumulation of 9,585 total points.  (Sadly, all three are now deceased)
:::(see YOUR webpage: http://www.shilohshepherds.info/romListing.htm)
:::On YOUR website, YOU also say the greatest number of points earned to date, by a currently living and breeding, ISSR Shiloh Shepherd is 5,080.
:::(see YOUR webpage:  http://www.shilohshepherds.info/romListing.htm)
:::On YOUR website, YOU also say this dog's name is Trillium Artis zum Soehrewald (Artus)
:::(see YOUR webpage:  http://www.shilohshepherds.info/romListing.htm)
:::(also see Talk page Content #32 (Ms Barber-Logical Conclusions I)
:::On HER website, the SSDCA/ISSR Excecutive Board of Directors Secretary says that Artus, who lives with her and is now RETIRED, is an imported Altdeusche Schäferhunde (born a German Shepherd and imported from Germany) who is now fully registered as "genuine" Shiloh Shepherd dog in YOUR ISSR registry. ("Introduced" to the breed and added to the ISSR registry, coincidentally, around the same time my backyard, mixed-breed mutt's father, Freddie, was winning YOUR ISSR registry's Top Dog, Champion, first time in Shiloh Shepherd history, 2 time Grand Victor, Multiple Best In Show, ISSR National Select awards).
:::(see HER webpage: http://www.trilliumshilohs.com/artus!.htm)
:::On YOUR website, YOU report that, as of 2001 (most current data available), Artus and his progeny had produced at least 24 "genuine" Shiloh Shepherd litters
:::(see YOUR webpage: http://www.shilohshepherds.info/widelyUsedStuds.htm)
:::In addition, on YOUR website, YOU list another dog, Fisher's Cisco Kid Spectacular (Cisco), now deceased, with a total of 740 ROM points.
:::(see YOUR webpage:  http://www.shilohshepherds.info/romListing.htm)
:::(also see Talk page Content #32 (Ms Barber-Logical Conclusions I)
But here's what happened:
:My backyard, mixed-breed mutt's mother, Savvy, left YOUR ISSR registry to join another Shiloh Shepherd registry.
:My backyard, mixed-breed mutt's father, Freddie, left YOUR ISSR registry to join another Shiloh Shepherd registry.
And then, YOU informed me
: that my dog "is not a genuine Shiloh Shepherd because his parents are not registered with the ISSR....he is nothing more than a backyard mixed-breed mutt" (YOUR EXACT WORDS - I have retained your correspondence)
So: let me see if I've got this right
The sons/daughters of:
:Artus (a German Shepherd dog with 5,080 ROM points and a 1x Grand Victor), who IS registered with the ISSR, BUT IS NOT pedigreed through YOUR "kennel of origin" stock 
and the sons/daughters of:
:Cisco (a German Shepherd dog with 740 ROM points and a 0x Grand Victor), who IS pedigreed through YOUR "kennel of origin" stock, BUT IS NOT registered with the ISSR (when you initially begin breeding him as "genuine" Shiloh Shepherd and registering his pups as "genuine" Shiloh Shepherds)
:ARE "genuine" Shiloh Shepherds (According to YOU)
:AND Artus and Cisco ARE "genuine" Shiloh Shepherds (According to YOU)
But:
"My backyard, mixed-breed mutt"
the Son of:
:Savvy, who IS BOTH registered with the ISSR (before she chooses to leave for another registry), AND "excellently" pedigreed through YOUR "kennel of origin" stock (including parents: #1 and #2 ROM ranking in Shiloh history), with NO "New" German Shepherd bloodlines
  
:and
:Freddie (2x ISSR Grand Victor), who IS BOTH registered with the ISSR (before he chooses to leave for another registry), and "excellently" pedigreed through YOUR "kennel of origin" stock (including Captain, Ursa, Kari, Sabrina, Shane, Sasquach, Shaq, Gypsy.....), with NO "New" German Shepherd bloodlines
 
:IS NOT a "genuine" Shiloh Shepherd (According to YOU)
:AND Freddie and Savvy ARE NOT "genuine" Shiloh Shepherds (According to YOU)
But, LOGICALLY:
Assuming that Freddie, Savvy, and my dog are not "genuine" Shiloh Shepherds because they are no longer (or not at all, as in my dog's case) registered with the ISSR registry (but do obviously have unbiased, verifiable pedigree credential to qualify, as evidenced by their former membership in YOUR ISSR registry and their heritage, not to mention their accomplishments while ISSR members)...............then Cisco and his descendants are not "genuine" Shiloh Shepherds either since he was not ISSR registered at the time you bred him.
BUT now assuming your claim now that Cisco and his descendants are "genuine" Shiloh Shepherds, even though he was not ISSR registerd...............then Freddie, Savvy and my dog must be "genuine" Shiloh Shepherds, even though though they are not ISSR registered.
But, if you acknowledge that Freddie (your 2x ISSR Grand Victor) and Savvy (a "princess" of Shiloh Shepherd foundation royalty) are "genuine Shiloh Shepherds" ............then you MUST acknowledge that my backyard, mixed-breed mutt is a "genuine" Shiloh Shepherd ............-which means-............YOU MUST ACKNOWLEDGE THAT OTHER DOGS AND THEIR SONS/DAUGHTERS CAN BELONG TO OTHER SHILOH SHEPHERD REGISTRIES (OR NO REGISTRY AT ALL, FOR THAT MATTER) AND STILL BE "GENUINE" SHILOH SHEPHERDS!
:::(whoops, there it is..as YOU say: FACT, FACT, FACT)
So, Ms. Barber, you have either a dilemma (definition: "a problem involving a difficult, undesirable or unpleasant choice") on your hands .....or else your opposition to the inclusion of the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA and ISSDC in, not only this article, but the future of this breed, is illogical and therefore, irrelevant (definition: not having significant and demonstrable bearing on the matter at hand; NOT affording evidence tending to prove or disprove the matter at issue or under discussion")
:(see Merriam-Webster Dictionary: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/dilemma and http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/irrelevant)
I know you say this is all boring foolishness to you, but, as Ricky Ricardo used to say, could you "please 'splain" it to us one more time?
And if, as you say, I'm "mixing apples and oranges", instead of what you seem to be mixing in YOUR recipe, do think there's a possibility my dog might, in actuality, really be MY "genuine" backyard, mixed-breed peach?  69.173.135.114 08:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ms. Barber - Logical Conclusions II

message: Jareth: a couple questions please re: the additon of the ESSR to the registry listings in the article.'''
Shiloh Owner said: "I added notes as to why I added the ESSR to the list."
[see Content #33]
Could you please confirm which contributor (signature) added the ESSR website link to the registry list in the article? 
Could you please confirm if there are notes attached this edit's history, justifying why the ESSR website link was added to the registry list in the article?
I'm having a little difficulty finding/understanding history re: the signature of the author of this edit or any notes related to it justification for inclusion in the article (I haven't found any posts from Shilow Owner on the Talk page containing these notes either, so this is why I'm looking to history for them). Thank you. 69.173.135.114 17:30, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jareth: Listing of Shiloh Registries-A Couple Questions