Talk:Derek Jeter/Archive 1

message: This is not a fanboy web page. This is an encyclopedia. Negative information and positive information can co-exist together. No Guru 02:19, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post Season history 

message: This and every page requires a balanced and neutral point of view if it is to be encyclopedic. If there is to be a section on Derek Jeter's post season successes it is fair to point out occasions when his play has been less than brilliant. Deleting information that is relevant and factual makes the article less useful and more biased. If both positive and negative about a subject is included the readers can be left to come to their conclusions. For example the article on Barry Bonds would be incomplete if it mentioned only his playing record and not the Balco scandal. The Bill Buckner article details both his successes as a player and his famous error.
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a fan site. The difference is crucial.
No Guru 19:16, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page Protected 

message: I am a lifelong Yankees fan and this article is way over the top. POV-flavored nonsense like "Jeter left the Wolverines behind to follow his dream" and "During his rookie season the young shortstop gained instant fame, as much for his matinee idol looks as for his on-the-field play" have no place in an encyclopedia article. Besides the silly biases, I think this article needs a lot of organization as most of Jeter's highlights are needlessly mentioned twice. --Feitclub 05:14, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
:My sense is that this article is a little long and rambling. I agree about some of the sentences being a little over the top and need some NPOVing. Based on the discussion on this talk page however, I don't feel like I want to involve myself in a full rewrite. Maybe somebody can come in and do some touching up.No Guru 19:01, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two Cents 

message: Not just Jeter bashing, but Yankee bashing is a cottage-industry, and I would say obsession in Boston.  DigiBullet 17:14, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jeter Bashing and Boston 

message: Brian Brockmeyer, perhaps you can submit a reason for continually editing out the factoid regarding Derek Sanderson beyond that you don't want it there.  As No Guru states accurately above, there is never a need to delete information from an article that is relevant, accurate and factual.  Add, don't subtract.  RGTraynor 19:40, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, because it's an interesting, relevant factoid.  Now from everything I've seen across this discussion page and his own, Brian Brockmeyer seems to feel he personally owns the Derek Jeter article, but more's the pity, Wikipedia runs on consensus.  I've sent some letters out; we'll see. RGTraynor 12:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I suspect that he doesn't want an association of Jeter with Boston -- even the Boston Bruins.  I've put (what I feel is) a nicely worded request for discussion on his page.  Let's see if he gets back.  --Nlu 06:03, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early Life 

message: Once the edit protection is gone, does anyone think this would be useful in the "Captain" section?  George Steinbrenner said, "I have always been very, very careful about giving such a responsibility (Captain of the New York Yankees) to one of my players, but I can not think of a single player that I have ever had who is more deserving of this honor than Derek Jeter. He is a young man of great character and has shown great leadership qualities. He believes, as I do, what General (Douglas) MacArthur said, that 'there is no substitute for victory.' To him, and to me, it's second only to breathing." AriGold 14:04, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really.  Many of the things that Steinbrenner says is nonsense, and while this is not nonsense, it says something about Steinbrenner but not necessarily about Jeter.  --Nlu 15:08, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Captain

message: Nlu has requested unprotection. I'd like input from the other editors here. We never like to protect articles, but I want to warn you all not to go right back to the same edit warring behavior that led to protection. So, unprotection? Dmcdevit·t 05:16, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Brian Brockmeyer has not only not wavered from his stance, he's spread the dispute to other pages.  Googie Man and myself seem to be standing on our own evidence, which contradicts one of his points, and letters are pending to the Kay show, the only other one.  That being said, I feel solidly that the information is pertinent and should be included in the affected pages.  Now what?  RGTraynor 09:48, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, RGTraynor felt compelled to revert to the same edit warring behavior that landed this page under protection in the first place.  He's also yet to produce this "mystery" letter from Derek Jeter that he claims shows that Jeter was named after the hockey player.  Until he does so, Mr. Traynor's fantasies should not be indulged.-Brian Brockmeyer 05:11, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  A charming attitude, and from what I've seen of the other wars you've provoked rather habitual ... and, after all, haven't you just run back and reverted everything on both sites yourself -- who's edit warring again here?  As it happens, I learned of this fact from others, and wrote Jeter's and Kay's respective websites for their input in an attempt to winnow fact from rumor, not because I had any particular axe to grind.  I'm certainly happy to cut and paste the letter here, for what it's worth, but if you've documentary evidence to the contrary, feel free to present it.  RGTraynor 17:36, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotection? 

message: No mention of the phantom tag or the unsportsmanlike slap? Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:05, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would those be mentioned on the Jeter page? Neither were made by Jeter. The "phantom tag" was by Knoblauch (and in any case, it was the umpire who blew that one- Knoblauch didn't do anything unsportsmanlike or wrong) and A-Rod did the "slap."Sh76us 21:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Red Sox Speaks: 

message: Damn, that's a lot of quotes. Could we squeeze a few more in there. Let's make this the longest article on Wikipedia. No Guru 07:04, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The New quotes Section 

message: I think the wording is good, but not the location.  Before, the article transitioned nicely from being drafted by the Yankees to his pro-baseball debut.  Now it's kind of fractured by this information which doesn't really fit there.  How about a "trivia" section or something near the bottom of the article? —Cleared as filed. 21:11, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, sorry about that. I wasn't particularly happy about the placement either, but there wasn't an existing trivia section or other applicable spot and I didn't want to go changing the article structure. Please feel free to alter and/or move it wherever seems appropriate. --CBDunkerson 21:15, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved it down to a new Trivia section, but ugh, I don't really like it.  Hopefully someone can come up with a better place to put it, or more trivia; it looks kind of dumb hanging down there by itself, but at least it's no longer interrupting the article narrative.  Also, I think we're going to have to do something with all these quotes that were added, like interwiki to Wikiquotes?  They're a pretty big mess.  —Cleared as filed. 21:24, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This works well and is a more than appropriate way to deal with this.  We just need to expand the trivia section.-Brian Brockmeyer 21:39, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an extensive section of Jeter trivia here -> . However, we should probably winnow that down to a few significant items... after confirming accuracy. Also, I moved the quotes section to wikiquote per above. Consider this an experiment (since I removed ALOT of material) and feel free to change back. --CBDunkerson 21:47, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Yeah, with Brian's expansion of the trivia section I think it works much better than where I'd originally put it. Thanks. --CBDunkerson 23:34, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I have changed the wording on the Sanderson thing here. I have been mediating this case, and RGTraynor has an email from a Jeter fan site, so I believe we can't get it anymore NPOV than what we have now. Redwolf24 (talk) Attention Washingtonians! 20:04, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with a letter is that while it may be conclusive (depending on who it is from) it isn't verifiable. This is a textbook case of that policy... "Verifiability, not truth". RGTraynor has a letter saying he's named after the hockey player. Brian Brockmeyer heard Jeter say he wasn't on a radio show. Both would seem conclusive... but neither is verifiable. --CBDunkerson 20:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Traynor and Googie Man have several websites stating he is named after Sanderson, this is verifiability. Brockmeyer has his word. I've dropped the mediation because Brockmeyer has been totally unreasonable. Googie Man and RGTraynor were willing to compromise, Brockmeyer just wants it all, and I must say I'm annoyed by his unhelpful edit summaries too. I think an RFC or an RfAr is next. Redwolf24 (talk) Attention Washingtonians! 03:43, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  I agree that if all we had was the letter I received from Jeter's webmaster, that wouldn't be enough.  But we also have the linked article from the St Louis Post-Dispatch above and the statement from Sanderson's nephew above.  On Brockmeyer's side, we have zilch; although he agreed to mediation, he provided no documentary evidence whatsoever, nor has he seemingly sought any verifiable confirmation from Kay's show (as I did in writing Jeter's official website in the first place).  It is probably impolite to speculate just why he neither has any such evidence nor has sought any, but is there any place in this debate for his naked, unsupported conjecture?  At this point, it should be put up or shut up: if Brockmeyer can't (or won't) back his case up, he should give it a rest.  RGTraynor 02:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, he has pointed to the lack of any mention of this in Jeter's biography. The St Louis Post-Dispatch article you note is already linked on the page and stated as the reported situation.  What do you suggest?  That we include JUST 'he was named after the hockey player' with no caveat that there are no verifiable instances of this claim coming from Jeter or his family themselves? --CBD T C @ 02:39, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Leaving aside that failure to mention something is not prima facie proof of its non-existence, either on Wikipedia or anywhere else, the phrase "Some sources state that Jeter was named after 70s-Boston Bruins' hockey player Derek Sanderson" was suggested in mediation and agreed upon by a majority of the parties.  It's an accurate phrase that passes POV muster without stating it as incontrovertible fact.  RGTraynor 06:42, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  CBDunkerson's compromise addition 

message: Is this page only to reference Jeter's Baseball career?  Derek has a very successful charity organization called the Turn Two foundation, which surprisingly has no mention here.  If it has no other mention in Wikipedia, I'll add a section on it. BambinoPrime 05:05, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, this is a bio page.  If there is something significant that the subject has done, it should be included.  What you described sounds significant to me.  Thanks.  --rogerd 11:55, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charity work 

message: I see that User:No Guru insists on including incorrect information in the article because it comes from the IMDB.  Unfortunately, as we all know, IMDB is the product of nothing more than user submissions.  It's also worth noting the numerous inaccuracies within this particular IMDB article, such as listing Jeter's first MLB home run as coming on May 2, 1996.  Everyone who knows anything about baseball knows his first home run came on opening day 1996 to left field off of Dennis Martinez.-DSJ2 04:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, let's let some other editors mull this one over. But IMDB is not the only source for this. The St. Louis Post dispatch ran an article in 2005 that stated the same thing. Maybe somebody else could chime in on this one to try and reach consensus. No Guru 05:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the only credible source, and for all we know, the author of the Dispatch article could have been relying on the Wikipedia article or IMDB.  I'd like to see something concrete/official before making the claim.  I also think it's telling that when the Fleet Center was going to be renamed the 'Jeter Center' for a day (after a charity auction), there was no mention at all made in Boston about Jeter being named after the hockey player.  If he was, it would've been all over the Boston papers.-DSJ2 07:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The St. Louis Post dispatch would most certainly be considered a reliable source. The information is verifiable and relevant and does not defame Mr. Jeter in any way, so I'm going to re-include it. No Guru 19:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The post-dispatch cached article has diapeared into the ether, and I'm hesitant to re-post the trivia with IMDB as the sole source so I reverted it. -- No Guru 20:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we want to re-add that information, the eminently reliable Retrosheet (http://retrosheet.org)'s database of baseball boxscores shows that Jeter's first career HR came on April 2, not May 2, of 1996. As the Jeter fanboi above said, it came off Dennis Martinez on opening day -- verify it for yourself http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Pjeted001.htm. Woodshed 09:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: IMDB as a source...LOL

message: I removed the promotional picture from the article and replaced it with the image that was already there, which was released under the GFDL, and deleted the promotional image under WP:CSD I1. GFDL images are always preferable to those released under fair use. —BorgHunter ubx (talk) 12:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: Added "The Dive" to the page, since it's as much an iconic part of Jeter's career as "The Flip". JAF1970 19:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree this should be there.  However, you should watch the tape again, or just look at the accompanying picture.  The ball would not have landed in fair territory if Jeter had not caught it.  He caught the ball just at the edge of the third-base seats, just to the left of the camera well by the dugout, about twenty-five feet beyond the third-base foul line.  Look at any aerial view of the park.  When Jeter caught the ball he was far, far out of fair territory; if he had missed it, it would have been a foul ball.  (In fact, I believe the whole reason this was such a celebrated play was that Jeter went to such a great effort to catch a ball that would have done no harm if he'd let it go.) Fumblebruschi 02:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's simply not the case. The ball was down the line, where there is very little foul ground. It's not 100% clear whether the ball would have landed fair or foul has Jeter missed it entirely. But there's no question that once he lunged for it and touched it, it would have been fair had it landed, as Jeter was clearly in fair territory when he took the last step before catching it. In any case, your assertion that he was "he was far, far out of fair territory" is patently false.  Sh76us 00:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Watch the replay, dude. the ball probably would have landed in FAIR territory had Jeter not caught it. Look for it around, maybe it's on youtube or something. And after you watch the replay you can come back and apologize to me. Oh, and sign your name to your posts please; there's nothing slimier than an anonymous criticism. Sh76us 14:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

text: It was CLEARLY IN FAIR TERRITORY. Trust me, here in NYC we see that replay ALL THE TIME on YES. JAF1970 18:36, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Dive

message: While User:164.55.254.106's edits were over-zealous, the Mr. Clutch section does present some POV and weasely wording. Are there some reliable sources we can cite describing DJ as "one of the best clutch postseason players in baseball history"? --MichaelZimmer (talk) 19:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mr. Clutch 

message: I'm a yankee fan, own a jeter shirt and what not, but I have to say, I've never heard of a "Holy Trinity of Shortstops," and that should probably be removed from the beginning of the article.  Any other opinions?
Jma2133 19:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That phrase used to link to the article, since deleted. Good riddance. Woodshed 15:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why is this still here?  It's so East Coast...  AlanzoB 00:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, I added the info about Jeter being voted overrated.  If it was a fan poll, I never would have added it, but the fact that it is a poll of fellow players makes it notable, even if the motivation for them voting that way was jelousy or something else.  If you want to link that to the top shortstop poll, you should do it.  But I don't think that you should remove the overrated poll.  Also, the Holy Trinity thing is really dated - I haven't heard that term since 1999 at least and it wasn't really used that often then, either.  --ColForbin 00:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree that Tejada is as good as Jeter, or better. But he was not as good as Jeter during the late 90s, when people discussed the "holy trinity" of him, Nomar and A-Rod. Look at the numbers, Tejada only became a great player after the turn of the decade. Sh76us 14:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holy Trinity of shortstops 

message: A lot of people don't like Derek Jeter, but to continue the idea of open-sourcing we must try to be as unbias as possible otherwise we violate the whole meaning of what wikipedia means and all what we do. We just must discuss and come to a conlusion trying to be as unbias as possible regardless if you dont like him or any other person. If we just stick to the facts and tell it from an objective point of view. Even though it might annoy a lot of fans that Jeter was voted overrated, its a fact that people voted and that should be put in the article to keep the bias out. He batted .087 in the 2001 world series before he hit the game winning home run over the right field wall. Its a fact. But people have called Jeter clutch and some people think he isn't, its to speculative so keep it that way in the article or just take it off. He lifetime batting avg. in the postseason is .307 and he is the all time leader in hits in the postseason (mlb.com). Through ten seasons he has more hits than Pete Rose did at that time. Four 200 hit seasons, every year he gets votes for mvp. The point is he is one of the greatest players to play the game, and that is an unbias because any one and I mean anyone who watches and follows baseball knows this regardless of what you think of the man.
Please revert the change made by 66.192.84.194  More specifically, the xchange from:
"During a July 1, 2004 extra-inning game versus the Boston Red Sox, Jeter leapt head first into the Yankee Stadium stands while chasing a pop-up hit near the foul line by Trot Nixon. His forward momentum forced him to keep running and jump into the stands, rather than potentially injuring his knees by stopping short of the two foot high fence on the left field line. He bruised his cheek and required stitches in his chin, but managed to hold onto the ball, ending a 12th inning threat by the Red Sox. The Yankees went on to win the game and Jeter played the next day against the New York Mets."
to
"During a July 1, 2004 extra-inning game versus the Boston Red Sox, Jeter leapt head first into the Yankee Stadium stands after catching a pop-up hit near the foul line by Trot Nixon. He bruised his cheek and required stitches in his chin, but managed to hold onto the ball, ending a 12th inning threat by the Red Sox. The Yankees went on to win the game and Jeter played the next day against the New York Mets."
Saying: 
"Jeter leapt head first into the Yankee Stadium stands after catching a pop-up hit near the foul line by Trot Nixon."
makes no sense. It implies he leapt into the stands AFTER catching the ball.
I-baLL 19:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He did leap into the stands after catching the ball. He caught the ball on the field, but his momentum carried him into the crowd. Or so the popular limn goes. Woodshed 12:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Derek Jeter Clutch 

message: Is Derek Jeter a first ballot HOF?
I don't think so because, although he is a solid player and clutch, he doesn't have the stats to get him in first ballot. If he finishes with a .315 BA and 3,000 hits on the other hand, it could be a different story.  Still thinks he needs a batting title or league MVP.  One WS MVP won't do it.
he has 2000 + hits already and 4 WS rings, hes in there today if he retires
no hall yet, maybe later, but if he was on the royals all his life, nobody would know much about him, just another David DeJesus. He's a lucky guy to have his career turn out this great
: If he retires or gets hurt today, he's probably not in. But, barring injury or an extremely unlikely collapes, he'll finish with at least 3,500 hits and he'll be a lock first ballot HOFer. Oh, and to compare the guy with the most hits in baseball over the last 10 years to David DeJesus is so biased to as not warrant extensive comment. Sh76us 14:46, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hall of Fame