Talk:Pashtuns/Archive 5

message: The rewrite of the Pashtun article, especially of the sections dealing with their historical and anthropological orgins and affinities, is excellent! It clearly defines the Pashtuns as an eastern Iranian/Indo-European people (and possible admixtures) and detaches from the Israelite origin theory, while still crediting the latter as being popular folklore of the Pashtun people. This is how it should be. Kudos to the editor/author! Kamran Saeed | Talk.
My changes mostly, with special mention ot Smabel for reminding me that Paktyan is not a confirmed theory regarding the ancient Pashtuns.  It seems that many Pashtuns, like other people in the region, seem to have fanciful mythological origins, but it appears that genetic evidence shows that there is very little Jewish ancestry (if there is any of any note aside from the Pashtun Jews who have mostly left for Israel).  I may add some mention regarding religion as well.
Tombseye 16:05, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Much Better!

message: "The Hindu Rig-Veda mentions a Pakhat 'Indo-Aryan' tribe as inhabiting present-day Afghanistan." Could someone cite? I suspect this is original research of the sort that does not belong in the article: the term Indo-Aryan tremendously post-dates the Rig-Veda, so there is at least some extrapolation here. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:11, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
Yeah that's a good point J as always.  I'll check it out and do the necessary changes.  Thanks.
Tombseye 16:04, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rig-Veda 

message: I would add some addtion in this respect, the OSTA of Persian some like of 1400 BC also mentioned this great Nation as BAGAD, so the Bagad of Persian Book Osta and Pakat of Rigved and Pactya of Herodotus is not just a coincidence.   --  Haider 11:12, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Osta and Herodotus

message: Can anyone help with the new Kakazai article? It needs improvement (eg source verification) but I don't know enough about the subject to do it myself. Tearlach 21:35, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Kakazai

message: Being a Pashtun of the NWFP of Pakistan, what I know about the great Lodhis -- for readers benefit, see a book Sher Shah Suri a fresh perspective by Basheer Ahmed Khan Matta -- (Pashtuns) are; Bahlol (the first emperor of the lodhi dynasty) grandfather Bahram Khan from Shahu khel Lodhi came to cross the indus during the reing of Firoz Shah Tughlaq and joined into the service of the governer of Multan, Malik Mardan Daulat. Bahlol Lodhi father's name was Malik Kala and was killed during in a fued with the Niazi Pashtuns. In the year 1440, Bahlol Lodhi defeated Ghalji Sultan of Malwa, he also won the title of Khan e Khana (the khan of khans). In april 1451 he ascended the throne of Delhi against Hameed Khan without any crutial resistance, assumed the title of Sultan and ensured that coins were struck and sermon (khutbas) delivered in his name. Lodhis dynasty came to an end when Babar won the famous and bloodiest battle of Panipat in 1526 AD. The Pashtuns nevertheless their serious disadvantages fought with great braveness, once they enter the battle field, maintaing the honour of their name in the cost of their lives; Ibrahims horse was bathed in blood up to the breast. he was aslo martyred during that famous battle. Due to some indian sources estimated pashtun loss were 40,000 to 50,000 dead. Bahlol Khan Lodhi reign was from 1451 to 1489, while the next Lodhi was Sikander Khan Lodhi, who ruled Delhi from 1489 to 1517 and the last one was Ibrahim Khan Lodhi, his reign was from 1517 to 1526, total Lodhi Dynasty was from 1451 to 1526 . --  Haider 19:49, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lodhis 

message: May I presume that "Aryans" in the article is used means either Proto-Indo-Europeans or something similar? In any case, given the imprecision and racialist connotations of Aryans, I'd suggest finding a different and more precise word. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:35, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In this case Aryan refers not to proto-Indo-European but actually a branch of Indo-European (such as Romance, Germanic, Armenian, etc.).  As a branch of Indo-European it is a precise term, linguistically, but I decided to simply say that the Aryans were one of many invaders and that the Pashtuns are derived from while mentioning that they are largely from Iranian peoples who are partial descendents of these Aryans.  We can't help the racialist inaccuracy attached in popular opinion unfortunately thanks to the Nazis who decided to re-write and misinterpret history in-spite of what German academics like Max Muller tried to explain, but the very term Iranian is a cognate for Aryan so there is no escaping the term as Pashto is undoubtedly an Iranian language of the eastern variety.  I think it helps also to divide the Pashtuns into two main groups: one that speaks Pashto and are Pashtuns and others who are part Pashtun and are called Pathans as well as other groups who do not speak Pashto but claim descent from them.  This way we know that the core group who speak Pashto have one set of origins and identity and the others have more complex origins.  Does this sound okay to pursue?  Tombseye 22:34, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I suggest that whichever precise meaning you have in mind, you could disambiguate by linking appropriately? Presumably Indo-Aryans or Aryans (that's Aryan)? Because the simple link to the article that covers all meanings of Aryans is not very informative. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:55, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, this is a tough subject to handle.  On the one hand, I hate to see us toss out the term simply because there is confusion and on the other hand you make a valid point that the link goes into the disparate meanings.  The problem is though that there is no Perso-Aryan link as the term Aryan is simply the same as Iranian, whereas the article already states that the Pashtuns are an Iranian people and the term Iranian is used numerous times.  The Aryans did invade the region and Pashto can be traced to one of their languages, albeit greatly altered, that is now spoken.  I think the brief mention I give them as one of the invaders is probably the best way to go, while leaving with the point the Pashtuns are largely an Iranian people and this should denote for people the same meaning as Perso-Aryan. Tombseye 07:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So wouldn't that be what we get if you keep the visible word Aryans but link it as Aryan? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:38, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah that is a possibility.  It's just that since the article refers to Iranians, Iranian people etc. on numerous occassions, linking Aryan to them would be redundant.  I do agree that it would be helpful if there was a page that related to the Iranians as an Aryan people similar to Indo-Aryan, but these are the terms.  I just thought that perhaps one link wouldn't hurt as people can figure out things on their own to some extent.  Also, it probably wouldn't hurt to clean-up the Aryans article at some point and I just might do that at some point if no one else does. Tombseye 08:34, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Tombseye, my proposal would still link to that same article, it's just that it would bring people directly to the relevant section. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:55, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Changes done as I linked Aryan to Iranian where it explains its usage at any rate.  With a little more work this article should be a featured page, but if that happens I can only imagine the controversy and desire for people to change things.  Ah wikipedia, so useful and yet so abused. Tombseye 20:11, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aryans 

message: I appear to have offended at least one person by writing that the claims of some Pashtuns that they are descended from Jews and Arabs etc. is mythological. I was taking an academic view as there is no real evidence aside from later accounts written during the Islamic period and the claims of Greek descent seem to pop up many centuries after the Greeks had become a forgotten memory.  Since Jews and Greeks (and of course Arabs) are prominently mentioned in the Quran, many academics believe that these origins stem from a desire to personally connect to the events related in the Quran.  This is not uncommon amongst many Islamic populations as one can find Nigerians who claim to be the descendents of Muhammad.  Most encyclopedias and works on the Pashtuns (including by educated Pashtuns) tend to view the aforementioned traditions as mythology so I don't think I was out of line for saying so.  Regardless, I also don't think it's fair to dismiss the genetic evidence, albeit still in its initial phases, as not objective since it is clear that the researchers wanted to simply see if there was any credence to the claims of some Pashtuns regarding their genetic connections.  At any rate, I think it's fair to simply divide the sections further and let the genetic section speak for itself while the oral traditions section explains what the legends are etc.  Tombseye 07:25, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a reminder to all concerned: there is a separate article Theory of Pashtun descent from Israelites. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:41, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah that article's an even bigger mess.  The section in the Pashtun article is relatively short so that's cool I guess.  I can only imagine the outrage at the many publications that call the theory mythology as they can't be changed by someone on the internet. Tombseye 08:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Hello Naeem.  I had some problems finding Mujawar Ahmad Zyar, other than messageboards saying he's a Pashtun linguist.  I couldn't find his book either.  Do you have any more substantive links to his work?  Might help to flesh-out any philology section.  Tombseye 20:13, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What do people think of the debate between scientific evidence and oral traditions regarding the origins of the Pashtuns? 

message: I thank Tombseye and Joe Mabel for their effort to compile this excellent article on Pashtuns. The article has the special quality that it is based on research material not myths. 
Moreover, to Tombseye: I am sorry for a belated response. The works of Mujawar Ahmad Zyar, I quoted somewhere on this page, are mostly in Pashto or German. The book I've mentioned is in Pashto. If you like, I can send you the original book and the translation of the relevant pages. Nevertheless, Zyar mostly quotes George Morgenstierne, the Norwigian linguist that worked on Pashto and other East Iranian languages. Some works of George Morgenstierne have recently been reprinted (e.g. An Etmological Dictionary of Pashto, etc.)
Further, I am residing in NWFP, Pakistan and if you need any material on Pashtun demography, literature, history, or tribal-social organization in Pashto, English, or Urdu, please do write me. If you need something to be translated from Pashto to English, I can also help in that. My email is: mnaeem198@yahoo.com.
Naeem, December 11, 2005
:Hello Naeem,   Thanks for the information.  Can you do me a favor then and add a section on philology and insert the pertinent information which I can then edit for grammar etc.?  I just completed some more edits to give the article a more appealing look such as the summary caption box. As for the Pashtun vs. Pathan controversy, I believe the way the article addresses it is both fair and accurate and delineates Pathans as a sub-group of sorts while remaining clear that Pashto-speakers are generally considered 'Pashtuns' from the academic sense.  This is a fair compromise in my opinion and I think the explanation of the various meanings of Pathan help for those who hear the term and believe it is synonomous with Pashtun, which it sometimes is and sometimes isn't.  In addition, if you have any pertinent external links, please add them.  Also, under the social conditions section I added, there is a women's section that I wrote.  Since women are roughly half the population it seemed unfair to leave them out of the article and if there is any information that can be added here, then great.  I wanted to expand the Social Conditions section by adding other sub-sections in the future such as politics at a later date, but anyone can add other sections if they want to such as sub-sections on Pashto entertainment (film, music), politics, economic conditions, etc.  Thanks for your input Naeem and I may email you at a later date regarding information on the Pashtuns and for translation purposes.  Thanks.  Tombseye 20:08, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Article on Pashtuns!