Talk:Circumcision/Archive 18

message: I re-wrote the section. Some refs were improperly formatted, others duplicated existing refs, and the entire thing was a quotefarm. I do not believe I changed any of the text except to paraphrase where before there were direct quotes and redo the citations. There exists a main article for this topic, so this section should be no more than a summary anyway. Please let me know if I missed anything. -- Avi 06:04, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Penile Cancer 

message: I've removed the following which was added recently, for reasons set out below. "The traditional procedure in The Philippines does not resemble circumcision as practiced [sic] elsewhere.  Rather, it is a supercision [sic]where the foreskin is drawn away from the body and then a 1/2" slit is made from the tip of the dorsal side of the skin tube, toward the body.  No tissue is removed.  The point is to allow the skin to be rolled back to expose the glans.  This procedure is so different from Western circumcision that including The Philippines when compiling statistics about benefits and risks of circumcision could be misleading."
Superincision was also the procedure in Polynesia and those parts of Melanesia which are described in the article as practising "circumcision," apart from Fiji where the surgical minutiae varied drastically in various parts of the islands. But it has largely now been medicalised in those parts of the South Pacific where it has not fallen into desuetude (such as Madang, New Ireland and New Hanover) and it has also been medicalised to a considerable extent in the Philippines. So the comment seems superfluous, certainly at the point where it was inserted.Masalai 15:20, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's also completely lacking in sources, and the last sentence in particular appears to be pure original research. So I think you were right to remove it. Jakew 15:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional comment re: Filipinos and superincision

message: Two editors have tried to edit the second paragraph of the article as follows:
*Change "The American Medical Association, in a report confined to discussing circumcisions that are not performed for ritualistic or religious purposes, states that medical associations in the US, Australia, and Canada do not recommend “non-therapeutic” circumcision, which it defines as non-religious, non-ritualistic, not medically necessary, elective circumcision of male newborns.[7]" to "Non-therapeutic infant circumcision has become controversial in recent decades. The American Medical Association defines “non-therapeutic” circumcsion as non-religious, non-ritualistic, not medically necessary, elective circumcision.[7] Speaking specifically about such procedures, the AMA states that “recent policy statements issued by professional societies representing Australian, Canadian, and American pediatricians do not recommend routine circumcision of male newborns.” .[7]"
As well as introducing typos in the form of 'circumcsion' and an extra full stop (period for American readers) at the end, this a) introduces an unsourced claim in the first sentence, b) uses lengthier quotes rather than accurately rephrasing, and c) adds two sentences and approximately 10 words while adding no information.
*Duplicates the following sentence: "In the US when non-ritualistic elective circumcision is chosen, it is largely because of social or cultural expectations, rather than medical concerns.[7]"
Is it really necessary to say this twice in the same paragraph?
Also, the revert to this version introduced a warning and reintroduced the external links discussed above. I'm just at a loss to understand why this version is perceived as so much better. Jakew 19:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because that wasn't the only thing in the edit possibly?  Reverting generally isn't the solution to a typo or an accidental duplication either.  The Edit also contained information increasing the NPOV status of the article discussing the contraversial nature of the subject. Lordkazan 19:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fairly sure that my summary above is an exhaustive description of the differences. Could you be a little more specific? Jakew 19:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Jakew misrepresents the general purpose (to accurately convey the AMA statement).TipPt 17:27, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Questionable edits to introduction

message: I presume that the "citation needed" tag can now come off the end of the last sentence; I have provided academic citations for South Korea and the Philippines. Unless of course a citation is required for the USA, but there is ample discussion of that later in the article. As for the eighth day, as I said, this applies in Judaism; there are some isolated indications in the Muslim authorities indicating that this is an optimal time, but it is honoured almost exclusively in the breach: performed on newborns where it is medicalised and birth is in hospitals (as in Iran and among urban middle class Pakistanis and Indians); performed much much later in traditional settings.Masalai 07:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Initial paragraph (moving right along)

message: I have introduced the adverb "speculatively" in two places a propos of obviously amateur (albeit longstanding) conjecture as to the origins of circumcision in the Philippines. I trust this is uncontroversial: the speculations are clearly questionable, notwithstanding their venerableness. The fact is that circumcision is practised in a geographical trail across the Pacific left by Austronesian migrants originally from Taiwan during the past 5,000 years, spottily in coastal and insular Melanesia (intermittantly on the north coast of New Guinea -- Biak, coastal Sepik, Madang, West New Britain, New Ireland and New Hanover -- and Vanuatu: it was clearly introduced far more recently to Fiji by Polynesian colonisers from Tonga) and in Polynesia (other than in New Zealand) and Micronesia. To suggest that traditional Filipino circumcision is the result of either western colonial influence or, before that, to Islamic influence, is quite ludicrous, though to make any bold commonsense statement as to its actual origin there would violate the No Original Research rule. The references deserve to stand at all only because of their ancient provenance.Masalai 09:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Filipinos again

message: This statement is no longer valid: "In Canada, individual provincial health services began delisting circumcision in the 1980s. At present, only Manitoba pays for the procedure." In fact Manitoba has long since delisted routine circumcision. The statement as it stood was not sourced in any case; perhaps the second sentence can now come out.Masalai 12:22, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Medicare Canada

message: This article makes male circumsision look like Osama bin Laden! Why don't you just add swastikas to the article? How come liberals are always so eager to explain to a non-circumsised lad that his penis is certainly normal, and yet they make fun of a circumsized boy? In front of his classmates? As if he's the one that's not normal? Disgusting liberal bias. If you want your sons to have penises soaked in smegma that badly, go ahead, but don't call it normal.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.69.137.207  (talk • contribs) 14:34, October 6, 2006   (UTC)
:Well, if pro-circ people think the article is anti-circ, and anti-circ people think it is pro-circ, then no one can tell the POV of the author and it is about as NPOV as one could get  -- Avi 19:23, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, I actually find that comment quite promising for the article. LWizard @ 23:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. I wonder if our original poster is aware that Osama bin Laden is almost certainly circumcised (You don't suppose that explains...nah, couldn't be...)  Avi, maybe we should try to get that photo to put an end to the penis-picture dispute. Dasondas 23:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

text: The article is most certainly biased, just not in the manner you think - and contrary to Avraham's snark, it's not NPOV - it's omitting significant amounts of medical information and is beyond hope of repair thanks to certain subversive elements Lordkazan 16:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

text: estrogen receptors not androgen receptors Lordkazan 15:34, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Estrogen is an androgen, and the receptors respond to other androgens besides estrogen.TipPt 16:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are mistaken - estrogen is not an androgen - the two are physiological antinyms.  Androgens are the precursor of estrogens, but estrogens are not androgens.  Estrogen states "In the body these are all produced from androgens through enzyme action".  Lordkazan 18:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article is bias 

message: Moving right along, 
:Circumcision may be undertaken as a body modification of the genitals to change the look of the penis to appeal more to certain aesthetics. In a few cultures, circumcision may be one of other modifications of the penis, such as a split penis or a subincision. 
I wonder if this section really needs to be included. Could it not now simply be deleted? It contains no citations; it is impliedly included in several other sections, especially those which discusss purely cultural issues: in Fiji and various West African societies, for example, where circumcision had a traditional significance which is now largely lost and where it is now medicalised and continues a matter of aesthetic preference. (Fijians, who are almost entirely Methodist, nowadays sometimes rationalise the traditional custom on the basis of the Old Testament — one wonders whether they consult the New as to this — and clearly it is now simply a matter of cultural and aesthetic preference: “Iliesa, little Mosese is getting to be a pretty big boy: don’t you think that it’s time for him to take him to the doctor and get that foreskin removed? We don’t want him to be a kulina.”: in Fijian, a “kulina” is a dog and also an Indian — ie an uncircumcised adult male.) In traditional Fiji society there were customary rites of circumcision (actually in many parts of Fiji a superincision or dorsal slit) but these have long since been abandoned, but 10-or-so year old boys are still taken off to the clinic to be circumcised as a matter of now-aesthetic preference. Fijians who visit Australia as tourists and wind up on nude beaches are invariably astonished at the number of "kulinas" there: "But aren’t they Christian?" Masalai 20:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Aesthetics

message: The useful point that "Jewish law requires males born without a foreskin or who lost their foreskin through means other than a formal circumcision ceremony (brit milah ברית מילה) to have a drop of blood (hatifat-dam, הטיפת דם) let from the penis at the point where the foreskin would have been (or was) attached": "the blood of the covenant must be drawn from the glans" is well known and highlights the distinction between the Jewish, ritual, outlook on circumcision and the Muslim, non-ritual outlook on the requirement. However, it appears only to be supported in readily available literature in http://www.arikah.net/encyclopedia, a reference I am dissatisfied with. I note that user Benami has brought the same reference to bear in the article on Aposthia, however. Perhaps he or another user could provide a more reliable source. The point is far from abstruse and I am sure that such sources must be readily to hand. Masalai 10:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's pretty easy to source this to mediaeval compendia of Jewish Law such as the Shulkhan Aruch (once I get home). Is this what is sought? - CrazyRussian talk/email 15:09, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm having to guess what Yoreh Deah is, but this page might be of help: Wikipedia:Citing sources/Bible. Jakew 18:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Looks sufficient to me. Masalai 20:48, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I've been preëmpted! - CrazyRussian talk/email 00:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Looks great, Avi. Jayjg (talk) 01:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Aposthia

message: The footnoted reference to the statement, "Some Muslim communities perform circumcision on the eighth day of life, as with Jews; others, earlier or later," does not support the statement at all: it states that there are various scholarly dicta on the recommended time and no consensus; the eighth day is not mentioned. I have therefore deleted the statement. The reference, if anyone cares to check it, was:
:
Masalai 10:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Eighth day in Islam