Talk:Clave (rhythm)

message: This instrument and pattern also seem to be extremely common in Jamaican mento.  Somebody find a source! 75.49.251.170 (talk) 10:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Mento]]

message: I think the current images used to describe the various clave rhythms are a bit confusing for two reasons:
1) As the clave is a rhythmic pattern it's not really interesting which tone is being played and for how long it's being held. Because of this I think standard musical notation is an unnecessarily complex way of describing it for the unknowing.
2) Sticking to standard musical notation the current note and rest durations seem a bit out of place to me. The external article An Introduction to Clave Theory has a version that I feel is the most correct way of describing the clave with standard notation.
The same article also has a good example of an alternate way of graphically representing the clave which I believe is much easier to understand for those who have not studied standard musical notation.
Could someone make an image like that, or maybe construct one using HTML tables?
It's also possible to explain the clave in basic text as done in the current version of salsa (music), using "pre"-tags like this:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
*  *  *   * *
...but images are always nice :)
- Wintran 17:19, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: Edit by User:66.248.34.52 at 08:19, 19 October 2005.
:(Possible exceptions would be all those of Yoruba-Congo descent outside of Cuba. Most slaves brought  to English controlled colonies such as Jamaica or the future USA were from what is now Nigeria. The music of these Calabali is noticeably different from the music of Cuba, suggesting that Nigerian origin is not the key difference between Cuban music and other types of black music.) Because the those of slave descent from NIgeria are newer they ar
Reasons for moving: Feels a bit out of place, and end sentence is not finished.
- Wintran 12:36, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits moved to talk page

message: I knocked this up in a few minutes. I don't claim it's good, but if you agree it's better than nothing I'll move it on the body of the article.
James barton 13:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sample 

message: I Removed part about Brazilian music being largely clave-less, and added examples of clave patterns in traditional Brazilian music. Even though clave is played on claves, it doesn't mean that if it is played on another intrument it is not a clave.
In the section about cross cultural pollination between Louisianan musicians and Cuban musicians, the author makes an implication that clave is a direct result of this communication between the US and Cuba. In reality, African Americans retained many musical structures from their african descendents, including clave. It was not necessarily a result of contact with Cuba.
Also edited "This is a fundamental difference between the Cuban conception of clave and other rhythmic timelines found in African and African-Diaspora music, which often simply mark recurring cycles of time." in regards to "Depending on the style and musicians involved, the clave may play a role from a simple rhythmic decoration to an elaborate structural framework upon which the rest of the music must relate." While the latter is true, the former is not. Hint: Bembé, Candomblé, music of the Fon, etc... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.48.91.222 (talk) 07:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent update 

message: The rhythm came from the eastern Meditteranean, not any "West Africans." The only reason music from there has clave is because the Moors brought it with them when they invaded a section of NorthWest SSAfrica. As for Louisiana/Cuba, there was a large amount of contact and that is where the commonality of clave came from. There were no "African-Americans," and the slaves merely imitated what they heard from others, adding a few flourishes here and there. Don't forget that the slaves were not pure SSAfrican either! More feel-good lies are not needed.JBDay 21:00, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rubbish!!

message: I've added the fact tag after the word "West" in this sentence:
Clave (pronounced clah-vay) is a rhythmic pattern or timeline which has its roots in West African music and was developed in Cuba.
This is because the clave rhythm is also found in Central Africa.  I think it would be more accurate state that clave has its roots in Sub-Saharan African music.
I was also tempted to add a fact tag after "developed in Cuba." If you listen to traditional African music, you'll probably agree that the clave rhythm is quite well-developed. Perhaps "populararized by Cuban music" would be more accurate. DBlomgren 18:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fact tag to West African statement 

message: The image of sheet music displayed on the page is rumba clave, not son clave. The clave for rumba Guaguanco is always played in a 3-2 pattern, and the clave for son is played in 2-3. The accents are different between popular and folkloric music (for instance, in a folkloric pattern you might here, it can go: 12-1-12 Listen to Tito Puente's Pa' Los Rumberos, even though it is pop music he is using a folkloric clave, and you will see what I am talking about). It is true that the clave is different for rumba columbia, but this is also different for yambu clave. So, in truth, the rumba clave is primarily meant for Guaguanco. You might here a folkloric recording (Los Munequitos de Matanzas is a good place to start) and someone might be playing a Guaguanco clave to a yambu, but essentially, they are all different. Cancionista78 01:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Don't want to start a fight here, but

message: First of all, this passage is erroneous and off topic, so I am going to delete it:
"It should be noted, however, that whether or not there was any continuous exchange between musicians in Louisiana and Cuba, African musical traditions in the United States are very much a part of the musical heritage of the African American culture since the first slaves landed in the US."
The first slave were brought by the Portuguese and Spaniards to Brazil and Cuba, respectively, not to the US. The first American slaves landed in Virginia in 1619. Also, I think it is unnecessary for a discussion of Clave to mention anything about the vitality of African American culture—that should be in a discussion of African American music.
----
Also, I would suggest that someone redo all the clave diagrams so that they are consistent. Give all variations, not just those that are "correct". We can write descriptions of how each is used and if it is authentic. The fact that someone believes it to exist in a certain way makes it worth discussing on the page. 
I think it is also a good idea to use standard notation and some form of grid notation for each example, since this seems to be contentious with some people.
----
Lastly, the debate about which directions are more correct for certain styles should be incorporated into the text. I personally have heard every combination. Son clave in folkloric music and both directions of rumba clave in pop music (Isaac Delgado does this a lot).
96.52.9.182 (talk) 01:24, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some suggestions for cleaning up 

message: I don't think a discussion of the instrument should be on this page. There is a separate page for claves as an instrument. Why not just provide a disambiguation link to that and let this page be about the rhythm?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.37.167.20 (talk) 16:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clave instrument 

message: Some people below have posted comments that they disagree with the content of the Clave page. Don't post that stuff here—if you have conflicting information, incorporate it into a section of the article, making sure to cite your sources in proper academic style. There's no point in griping. This article should reflect as many points of view about clave as possible, as long as they are presented fairly and with proper citations. 12:36 UTC, 21 Jul 2009  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.42.163.133 (talk) 00:37, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Where should one gripe? Hyacinth (talk) 01:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Silliest idea of the day.  People don't use discussion pages enough.  You seem to think that anonymous edit wars in the article are better than "gripes", as you call them, on the discussion page.  I don't see any gripes above, but I wonder if all the article improvements suggested here have been made.  Ortolan88 (talk) 21:50, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Don't Gripe on the Discussion Page

message: "rhythmic positions that do not fit neatly into Western music notation" - is there another form of music notation into which they do fit neatly? If not, the word Western is superfluous. (If there is another kind of notation that they fit neatly into, we need to know about it.) 213.122.19.38 (talk) 02:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll take out the reference to "western"--Dr clave (talk) 21:55, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  rhythmic positions that fit neatly 

message: The article does not have a lead section. "The lead section (also known as the introduction or the lead) of a Wikipedia article is the section before the table of contents and first heading. The lead serves both as an introduction to the article and as a summary of the important aspects of the subject of the article. The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points..."
There is currently no section before the table of contents, only a pronunciation and literal definition of "clave" as "code", "key", or "keystone". There is no context for the pronunciation or the definition and the definition is not of "clave rhythm", the terms use in this article. Hyacinth (talk) 22:31, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope I have remedied that problem now.--Dr clave (talk) 01:33, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Much better now. Hyacinth (talk) 10:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

text: But it doesn't say what clave is.  To say something is "used as"  or "used in"  does not tell us what it is.  (Consider an analogy:  "A steering wheel / transmission / engine is used in driving a car."  Any of those is correct but not informative. 137.159.184.234 (talk) 02:28, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead missing

message: I think this section should be removed. I think the original writer may have read some related academic papers online (by Toussaint for example), but the entry here is weak and undeveloped. It probably belongs on the Polyrhythm or Music of Africa page.--Dr clave (talk) 19:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be deleted. For example it claims that 3:2 approximates the Golden ratio. However, 1.5 ≠ 1.618 closely or in any significant manner. Though 2 & 3 are found consecutively in the Fibonacci sequence they are so low as to make this relationship meaningless without continuing the sequence. Worse, the section as a whole doesn't describe any symmetry in the clave rhythm or anything else. Hyacinth (talk) 10:24, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''The symmetry of clave''' 

message: >> Hyacinth: ". . . do you have a source that shows or describes one measure, and does that source say why they it matters?"
Hyacinth,
Sorry about the long-winded answer, which may have not been the easiest to follow. Here are some quotes that address your question:
“In a complex interaction of beat schemes of varying rhythmic motions, the human mind normally seeks a focal point. [. . .] This dominant beat scheme is considered the main beat because of its strong accents in regular recurrence that pervade and regulate the entire fabric. . . in practice, the beat scheme of four units is the most commonly used. At any given tempo, the rhythmic motion of this beat scheme is the most moderate (not too slow or fast) and the most convenient as a focal point”—Ladzekpo (1995: webpage).
"Most examples of African musics, especially musics associated with dance can be transcribed into metric schemes in Western notation in 4/4 meter (for music with binary subdivisions) or 12/8 meter (for music with ternary subdivisions). [. . .] In standard terminology, each . . . metric scheme . . . consists of four beats per measure—Novotney (1996: 72). [There is a written example shown with this text of a measure of 4/4 (16 subdivisions) and a measure of 12/8 (12 subdivisions). Each measure has four main beats.--Dr clave (talk) 06:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The answer to "why" was, I guess, mostly to satisfy my curiosity. Hyacinth (talk) 16:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

text: None of that gives a reason for why one would notate clave one way or another. Nor does it appear to even discuss Afro-Cuban music. The above reads like the standard introductions to European music notation for those unfamiliar. Hyacinth (talk) 16:33, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

text: At the end you wrap up by describing how conventional practice is not to notate in one measure, and at the beginning you fail to give one clear reason. For example, because there are four beats could be a reason to notate it using four measures. How about a simple quote from a source. Something like, "The clave pattern should be notated using one measure in 4/4." (then the source can be full of it, but see WP:V) Hyacinth (talk) 06:19, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

text: So pretend I asked you to find a quote something like, "The clave pattern is generally notated using one measure in 4/4." Hyacinth (talk) 21:34, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issue of notation and counting THE SHORT ANSWER 

message: Examples of various notation variations with the patterns of strong and weak beats implied by the time signatures indicated above the notated rhythm. > = strong, u = weak, (>) = secondary strong beat. X marks aspects of notation which are unsatisfactory according to Dr clave.
File:3-2 son clave 4-4.png|3-2 son clave, in 4/4 quarter = 120 X theoretical number of pulses = 8 X number of measures = 2
File:3-2 son clave 2-4.png|3-2 son clave, in 2/4 quarter = 60 theoretical number of pulses = 4 X number of measures = 2
File:3-2 son clave 2-4 one measure.png|3-2 son clave, in one measure of 2/4 X quarter = 30 X theoretical number of pulses = 2 number of measures = 1
File:3-2 son clave 4-8.png|3-2 son clave, in 4/8 eighth = 120 theoretical number of pulses = 8 X number of measures = 2
File:3-2 son clave 4-4 one measure.png|3-2 son clave, in one measure of 4/4 quarter = 60 theoretical number of pulses = 4 number of measures = 1
File:3-2 son clave 4-4 four measures.png|3-2 son clave, in four measures of 4/4 X quarter = 240 theoretical number of pulses = 16 X number of measures = 4
File:3-2 son clave 2-2.png|3-2 son clave, in 2/2 (alla breve) half = 120 theoretical number of pulses = 8 X number of measures = 4
File:3-2 son clave 8-8.png|3-2 son clave, in 8/8 eighth = 120 X theoretical number of pulses = 8 number of measures = 1
Hyacinth (talk)
By the way, the dynamic of strong and weak beats found in Western music does not apply to sub-Saharan rhythm. The strong beats are 4 and 1, where the clave pattern coincides with main beats. --Dr clave (talk) 17:00, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The number of [tangential] claims you are making is beginning to be quite large. Hyacinth (talk) 21:10, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Examples

message: Why did you divide the "4/4" and "12/8" measures with a line in the pulse notation section? If 
1 & a 2 & a |3 & a 4 & a ||
X . X . . X |. X . X . . 
is supposed to correspond to the standard Western notation above it, those vertical lines in the middle should not be there.--Dr clave (talk) 03:01, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Who are you talking to? See Help:Page history.  Hyacinth (talk) 06:19, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

text: What if I hadn't figured it out? And, since you are no longer referring to my work () but to others' ()... Hyacinth (talk) 06:48, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  edit conflict 

message: I just wanted to add you'll find many rhythmic patterns including the clave in Morocco. But by no means do we "feel" these patterns as "additive". The underlying beat is always present, maybe that's not too obvious for a western outsider.
And while slaves from the Guinea regions definitely contributed to Moroccan culture (not only through music, but some Moroccan dishes originated from there too) there has been a centuries lasting diverse cultural/economical relationship between the Imazighen people in the borders of today's Morocco and the imazighen people of the Sahel region. Many Moroccan rhythms are very similar to rhythms found in northern parts of Mali/Niger for instance. And we all know that borders count little in the Sahel, that's more a European idea.
But even if one want to classify African rhythms as "devisive" there's still no one who'll ever play a rhythm with a rigid "1-e-and-e" structure in his mind. Rhythms are fluent much like melodies. You don't count you play. You'll find the beat already engrained in the melodic structure. And that's also how you choose a specific rhythm over another, or create a new one. Not by counting (or theorizing over 3-2 vs. 2-3) but by listening to the context of a given melody.
You may want to search for "lhaj belaid (otbib)" (moroccan souassa) on youtube as an example to better understand what I mean. And you may also want to see "onamer 4", which is another fine example demonstrating how rhythm, melody and language are pretty much interchangeable. Now, do you thing these musicians are counting 1-2-3-4? Are these "additive" or "devisive" patterns? The answer to this must be: No one really cares. Rhythm hast to be deeply organic, like anything you take for granted e.g. your heart beat, your steps, etc. After all its music not math.
Yet I have the impression that only Europeans and North Americans make such a fuss about notations and "6/8 feel" and stuff like that. The rest of the world seems to enjoy music whether it is "additive" or "devisive".
 
End Of Ranting :-)
92.72.176.220 (talk) 01:47, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rhythms of Morocco

message: I restored the photo of claves. I don't know why so many photos were deleted. seems quite excessive to me.Dr clave (talk) 16:12, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: too many photos deleted

message: Clave is the basic period, composed of two rhythmically opposed cells, one antecedent and the other consequent.. > So far I understand a period is considerable larger than the length of one clave. This also correlates with the article period. Thus I wonder whether a clave can be called a period. Alternatively the article period may need work to include a broader definition. LazyStarryNights (talk) 21:18, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: But without a reliable source this reasoning amounts to WP:SYNTHESIS, working backwards from a dictionary. Do any other authors refer to it in this way?--User:Salix alba (talk): 07:45, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

text: Very good. I guess some of those references should go in.--User:Salix alba (talk): 10:13, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Period 

message: The Clave pattern in both images is wrong; the first measure is a 16th note too long.
Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Seben_guitar_and_clave.tif
The dotted 8th note is the culprit here.
84.179.41.171 (talk) 08:34, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images in Soukous section 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Is there a particular reason why the notation for the 3-2 piano guajeo is stretched out on the third bar? Phen9264 (talk) 15:47, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  3–2 piano guajeo