Talk:Beverly Hills High School

message: I could only find an unbroken link to the norma zager muck-raker award at http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2004/06/la_press_club_a.php --MichelleInSanDiego 4/2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.36.39.78 (talk) 05:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  oil well 

message: I removed the information about the vending machines, and many of the details about the marching band.  Why?  Well we can't talk about every single vending machine in every high school in the United States.  The only thing interesting about the marching band (that was in the article) is that it plays at Disneyland.  But ALL high school marching bands play at high school football games!  We don't need to put that in an encyclopedia!
I also would object to any information about high school clubs and any list of classes at Beverly, AP or not.  Beverly is not the only school with AP classes!  
We have to realize that an encyclopedia article should be written for people who are not connected to Beverly in anyway, because these people are the vast majority of the people using wikipedia!  These people don't care about the vending machines, what specific classes Beverly offers, what clubs it has, or the fact that the marching band plays at football games, or the all the detail's about Joel Pressman's singing classes.
: I disagree with this statment. The point of an encyclopedia is to provide as much information as possible. Listing the ap classes and clubs shows the diversity of Beverly and the type of school that it is. not all schools offer the amount of ap programs and clubs that beverly does. also, some parents want to learn more about a high school before sending them to it. mentioning the different programs can provide a parent with more information on making an educated decision.Cyberslice22
::An encyclopedia is not supposed to have as much as possible!  It is supposed to be limited to information worthy of being in an encyclopedia.  An encyclopedia article about the planet Earth, for example, does not put everything that could possibly be said about the earth into the article.  The same is true for an article about Napoleon, or anything else.  An encyclopedia article gives a general overview of the subject.  It does not tell you every bit of information known about the subject. Karmak
::If parents want to learn more about this high school, they can call the school or look at the school's website.  This article is not for the parents of students at Beverly. Karmak
::Using the logic that "an encyclopedia article should have as much information as possible," if we are going to list all the AP classes at Beverly, we should also list ALL of Beverly's classes, to include more information, and because if we didn't include non-AP classes, we would be discriminating against students and parents who are not taking AP classes.  In fact, all articles about any University or High School in Wikipedia should have the entire school's course catalog in its wikipedia article, using that logic.  This is flawed logic.Karmak
It wasn't my idea to put Beverly Underground in the article, but I do not object to it unless it really is true that it has a lot of factual errors, but not just because Beverly claims it has factual errors!  We would need a source that is more NPOV than Beverly!  It would be crazy to say that we cannot use a source of information about Beverly simply because Beverly does not approve of it!Karmak
Cyberslice22, you apparently do not know enough of the marching band. I was a member of the band for all four years and I've done a lot with the band. It wasn't just Disneyland that the band goes to. If you think that is the one special thing they do, then you are seriously misinformed. If you want me to list out what the band does, I will tell you. Blau
=== We have a responsibility to not put a spin on Beverly===
The media (as I pointed out in the article) portrays Beverly as being absurly affluent.  This is what the average person on Wikipedia (who is not connected to Beverly in any way) most likely thinks Beverly is like.  This is why it is important to say in the article that the media's image of Beverly is quite absurd.  But it is also important to note that while the media image is over the top, it is VERY true that a lot of people who go to Beverly have affluent parents, many of whom are well connected in the entertainment industry.  The reason is obvious: there is a relatively high concentration of weathy people and people connected to the entertainment industry in Beverly Hills compared to most cities, and most of them send their children to the public schools in Beverly Hills.  So there is some truth to the way the media portrays Beverly.
Beverly officials have been trying to pretend that Beverly is not an affluent school for years, but that is like trying to pretend that the Pope is not Catholic!  In spite decades of the efforts by Beverly officials, the mainstream media will not let go of its absurd portrait of the high school and the city.  But the portrait that Beverly officials try to paint is just as misleading!  (It might be the truth, but it is not the whole truth!  A lot of times it isn't the truth!)  In order to be NPOV, we need to take a middle ground between these extremes.
Karmak
: Actually, speaking about Joel Pressman's choirs....... people from all over the country come to their concerts to see them perform, the same thing for their musicals.
Joel Pressman himself is famously known in Beverly Hills. He has worked with many great Artists, Taught many famous Alumni, in fact, he has performed on Broadway. He was a Beverly Alumni himself, and has been teaching at beverly for more than 35 years. He knows the most about the school's history. 
Also when the Monica Lewinsky scandal came out, he was falsely linked to her, saying that he had an affair with her while she was in his choir. Turned out that the media twisted the truth. She had an affair with the Technician man at the high school that worked at the musicals and the concerts at Beverly. But Monica was in Joel Pressman's Choir......... Pressman is a famous man in that place.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yelena1372 (talk • contribs) 04:42, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not all this information belongs in wikipedia 

message: The media (as I pointed out in the article) portrays Beverly as being absurly affluent.  This is what the average person on Wikipedia (who is not connected to Beverly in any way) most likely thinks Beverly is like.  This is why it is important to say in the article that the media's image of Beverly is quite absurd.  But it is also important to note that while the media image is over the top, it is VERY true that a lot of people who go to Beverly have affluent parents, many of whom are well connected in the entertainment industry.  The reason is obvious: there is a relatively high concentration of weathy people and people connected to the entertainment industry in Beverly Hills compared to most cities, and most of them send their children to the public schools in Beverly Hills.  So there is some truth to the way the media portrays Beverly.
Beverly officials have been trying to pretend that Beverly is not an affluent school for years, but that is like trying to pretend that the Pope is not Catholic!  In spite decades of the efforts by Beverly officials, the mainstream media will not let go of its absurd portrait of the high school and the city.  But the portrait that Beverly officials try to paint is just as misleading!  (It might be the truth, but it is not the whole truth!  A lot of times it isn't the truth!)  In order to be NPOV, we need to take a middle ground between these extremes.
Karmak
: Actually, speaking about Joel Pressman's choirs....... people from all over the country come to their concerts to see them perform, the same thing for their musicals.
Joel Pressman himself is famously known in Beverly Hills. He has worked with many great Artists, Taught many famous Alumni, in fact, he has performed on Broadway. He was a Beverly Alumni himself, and has been teaching at beverly for more than 35 years. He knows the most about the school's history. 
Also when the Monica Lewinsky scandal came out, he was falsely linked to her, saying that he had an affair with her while she was in his choir. Turned out that the media twisted the truth. She had an affair with the Technician man at the high school that worked at the musicals and the concerts at Beverly. But Monica was in Joel Pressman's Choir......... Pressman is a famous man in that place.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yelena1372 (talk • contribs) 04:42, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  We have a responsibility to not put a spin on Beverly

message: It'd be great if you guys could sign your comments correctly. Simply put four tildes [ ~ ~ ~ ~ ] after your comments, only without the spaces, and a normal signature, with the date, will appear.  It would be much appreciated.  Thanks!  Moncrief 21:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: How to sign a Wikipedia article

message: I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at your description of a Joel Stein humor piece as "non-fictional."  So you're insisting that "it became clear that career day for Beverly Hills High School students is the lamest charity invented since the Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta-Jones wedding registry" is a non-fictional statement?
::Everything published in the LA Times is non-fiction.  It is a newspaper.  Opinions and editorials are non-fiction.Karmak 14:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The statement was not a hyperbole.  The statement was an analogy.  Stein thinks that both Career Day and the Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta-Jones wedding registry are equally unworthy charities.  If Career Day were abolished, Stein does not think it would hurt Beverly students anymore than it would hurt Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta-Jones if no one bought them anything for their wedding.Karmak 14:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Signed editorials are still subjected to fact checking because even opinion articles contain factual claims.  When Stein claimed he went to Beverly asked him to speak for Career Day, he was stating a fact, not an opinion.  Even though Stein signed the editorial, the newspaper published it and a publisher has a responsibility to check the facts of what it publishes.  The newspaper could be sued for libel if something was said that was untrue EVEN in a signed opinion column!  For example, if Stein lied and claimed that he saw the principle molesting children, Stein's column would be slanderous, and both Stein and the newspaper publishing the column could be sued.  Likewise, a book publisher could be sued for publishing an opinion book that makes slanderous statements, even if the author signs the book.  "Oh heavens!"Karmak 14:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: First, we aren't including three quotes.  Second, it is okay to quote the opinion of somebody in a factual article, as long as it is made clear that it is the person's opinion.  When you quote someone, you are making the factual claim that the person really did say (or write) what you are claiming he said or wrote.  News articles on the front page of a newspaper which are not editorials virtually ALWAYS contain quotes that are not facts but that are somebody's opinion.  It is good journalism to do so!  Karmak 15:50, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Joel Stein references

message: Moncrief (and anyone else who is interested) should read the wiki article on Libel.
This articles makes it clear that even an opinion could be considered libelous.  A newspaper would have to make sure all of Stein's opinions are "fair comments."  That means that his opinions must be opinions that a reasonable person could have, even if they are biased against someone or something. 
So if Stein said "In my opinion, the princple is molesting children in his office" without any other facts to back it up, this would be slander because a reasonable person would not think the princple is molesting children unless A LOT of evidence was provided to him.  If Stein had made such a claim, and the paper failed to remove it, both Stein and the paper could be sued for libel.
It is ABSOLUETLY a "fair comment" when Stein claims that Career Day is the lamest chairity since the Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta-Jones wedding registry because of his opinion that the students demonstated that they were already well versed in journalism, on air presence, etc. based upon the questions they asked him. along with Steins FACTUAL claim that he at one point gave advice to a student about wheter to go work at "daddy's production company" as a producer or as an executive.
The reason it is a "fair comment" is because the average reasonable person would not find it hard to believe that students at Beverly Hills High School already know a lot about media and that many of them have parents who own production companies and that many of the students are very affluent.  Most reasonable people who aren't connected to Beverly believe the image of absurd affluence.  Stein's column did not misrepresent the school, he didn't say that robots were serving coffee to students, and his opinion of Beverly is a very reasonable opinion to have.  
A good NPOV article presents multiple reasonable perspectives of something.  I don't think it is possible to truely be objective, but by presenting multiple reasonable persepectives, we can come closer to objectivity.  Stein's perspective of Beverly is not unique -- a lot of people have written articles over the years with the similar perspectives.  Some are more melodramic, like an article about rampant cocaine abuse and 3 sucides at Beverly published in the mid 80s.  I can probably find that article, but Slien's article is less melodramtic and is far more recent.  Therefore I think quoting Stein's reasonable opinions about Beverly help make this article balanced and NPOV. Karmak 16:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are plain wrong about this.  Look up the article on wikipedia itself.  The article presents many opinions that certain people have about wikipedia, some of them are not positive opinions, some are.  The article is considered NPOV.  A lot of articles contain opinions, and opposing opinions.  As long as it is made clear (usually with quotes) that it is an opinion.  Karmak 17:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I personally did not write that.Karmak 18:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Uh, you should look up the Beverly Hillbillies movie on IMDB.com.  It was made in the 1990s.  There is no need to personally attack me with sarcastic statments like "Good thinking, genius," especially when you do not know what you are talking about!Karmak 17:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I didn't take it out!Karmak 17:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: As I said above, even the article on wikipedia has people's opinions.  This article also has a quote from Beverly's website, expressing Beverly's opinion that it has a "nationally reconized performing arts program."  That is just Beverly's opinion, but it is not an unreasonable opinion!    It is good to quote official Beverly sources as well.  But we can't limit our sources of information about Beverly to just official Beverly sources!  That would be too POV! Karmak 
===Sample Wikipedia articles with opinions===
Notice how many opinions (some that are in quotation form, and some that are not) are presented in the wikipedia article.  Look at the different opinions that are presented in the evolution article.  Or the Scientology article.  The list is endless.  
Wiki articles often present pro and con positions on many things, like evolution.  Presenting many opinions gets you closer to objectivity, and NPOV.Karmak 18:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Slander and Libel

message: Notice how many opinions (some that are in quotation form, and some that are not) are presented in the wikipedia article.  Look at the different opinions that are presented in the evolution article.  Or the Scientology article.  The list is endless.  
Wiki articles often present pro and con positions on many things, like evolution.  Presenting many opinions gets you closer to objectivity, and NPOV.Karmak 18:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sample Wikipedia articles with opinions

message: You keep vandalizing this page to claim that I'm "a faggot with no life."  
Consider this:
*  This is the first time I've looked at this article since June 21!  In that amount of time, you have spent quite a bit of time vandalizing this article over and over again just to insult me!  You must have a lot of time on your hands to do this!  
*  Vandalizing an article over and over again accomplishes nothing because every time you vandalize, somebody immediately reverts the article.  So what you are doing is totally unproductive!
*  What you are doing is counterproductive!  Do you think that you are making any friends by vandalizing this page just to insult me?  You don't even know me!  You are very emotionally immature and you are proving it with you're numerous vandalisms!  
*  Personal insults are not necessary and they are against wikipedia policies!  The same is true of vandalism!  
People who live in glass houses should not throw stones!  You need to get a life and stop vandalizing this page just to insult me!  Karmak 18:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: To the person who keeps vandalizing this article just to personally insult me:

message: What Leahy found was that in spite of the media's portrait, Beverly was not a den of hedonism. Leahy observed that "Social attitudes and mores appear to be nearly identical to those found in the middle-class high schools of the Los Angeles Basin and the San Fernando Valley -- the evidence of drug and alcohol use no more or less high, the discussion of sex and birth control equally as obsessive." Leahy wrote "It did not take long during my conversations with Beverly students before I understood that their world was nothing like the one I had imagined from casually observing teenage behavior in malls and at rock concerts. After that initial shock, the task became to listen to students long and carefully enough until I adequately understood the panorama of life at Beverly."
Users and viewers of wikipedia would appreciate if you, Karmak, would discontinue using information and text in violation of the Neutral Point Of' View policy that has been firmly rooted in the Wikipedia establishment. 
Much like your hap-hazardly placed Joel Stein reference, this quote from Leahy warrants scrutiny, as it his opinion, a concept, it seems, that you have not grasped. If you read the discussion section, other users have agreed that a poignant analysis of the student affluence by the individual Joel Stein is unecessary in the article, as it is the closed unfactual observation of Mr. Stein alone. Not only does Leahy's pessimism portray Beverly in the same light Stein had, this, was written two decades ago. I know you would agree that in two decades, our cultural landscape has shifted dramatically. Conclusively, Leahy's book is inaccurate to serve as a placeholder for an entirely new section. 
Your authority from graduating and attending Beverly Hills High school is very important, and valuable to this article. However, should other graduates and or current students be afforded the privilege of incorporating their personal experiences and or retrospective viewpoints, which changes from person to person, this article, and Wikipedia all over, wouldn't be as engaging for anyone, be they are a prospective student or not, to make a personal recollection of their own. A vanilla flavored article, for a lack of a better term, Mr. Karmak, suffices those who are knowledge famished or simply curious as to why Beverly Hills High School should  be explored and understood further. Exploring Beverly Hills High School's nooks and cranies, its idosyncracies, and the nit picks which makes any High School experience complete, is up to him or her to personally dive in to, without Wikipedia's guiding hand. 
::What you don't seem to understand is that I just pointed my personal viewpoints here on the talk page.  Not in the article!  It is approiate to talk about the history of Beverly in this article, because the history of the school is sub-topic of the school itself.  I wouldn't mind more historical information.  This section now very clearly points out that this study was done in the 1980s.  But he we do have somebody who qualifies as an "expert" on Beverly Hills High School students in the 1980s.  He spent nealy a year or more doing the research, and as somebody who has published a book on this subject, he is somebody is indeed "notable" on the topic of Beverly Hills High School's students in the 1980s.  Therefore it is okay to put quotations from him.  And frankly, the quotations are quite NPOV.  Karmak
 
I look forward to your understanding of this matter. 
CH1 02:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beverly was not a "Den of Hedonism!" in the 80s.  That's Leahy's point!

message: Obviously, this page has been vandalized over and over from somebody who posts annonymously with multople IP address and sockpuppers.  This person should read wikipedia's policy about sockpuppets WP:Sock and realize that it is against the rules to sign on with a different username after someone has blocked you from posting indefinately.
The majority of his sockpuppets have been banned indefinately, and most of his other have been disiplined.  The semi-protection policy may not fix the problem, but it stop his annonymous use of IP addresses and will help us to identify his sockpuppets if he comes back.Karmak 19:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Semi-protection

message: User:CH1  Was blocked indefinately for being a sockpuppet.  Karmak
:Your comments are riddled with spelling errors, "indefinately" (ouch!) being only the most recent.  So much for the academic excellence of BHHS, I guess. Moncrief 20:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Moncrief my friend, I never claimed that the high school you or I went to was "academically exellent."  But hey, nice to see you man!  At least you aren't that SMC drop-out boy who is REALLY making Beverly look bad.  Karmak 02:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sock Puppets; Let 'em Hang!

message: Self-promotion of a non-notable club. Hey, Kiwanis deserves more recognition than, what, Captain crunch club? Please... 
Wikipedia ain't for advertising, kid.JointDefense 19:50, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  captain crunch section removed 

message: The article claims Lenny Kravitz attended the school, but the Fairfax High School article also claims him as an old boy. He could of course have gone to both, but the Lenny Kravitz article says he went to Beverly with Slash_%28musician%29, and the Farfax High article also lists Slash as an alumni. So it seems highly improbable that they both went to both high schools. Could someone please clarify which school they actually attended? 
Palefire 04:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure about Fairfax High School, but according to the trivia section of Slash's biography on imdb.com  Slash "attended Beverly Hills High School with Lenny Kravitz in the early 1980s, but did not graduate."  Slash's bio also says that he dropped out in the 11th grade, but the bio says nothing about Fairfax High School.  The imdb biography for Lenny Kravitz says that Lenny graduated from Beverly in 1982, and does not say anything about Fairfax High either.    I think it is safe to list both Lenny and Slash as former students, but perhaps it could be noted that Slash dropped out. Kathartic 02:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusion over Lenny Kravitz and Slash 

message: I think the section on "Academics" says nothing and should either be expanded or removed.Dr. Maitland (talk) 23:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academics 

message: To save editors from having to go through the whole referenced article, here is the relevant section: "About 17% of the 2,362 students at the school are of Asian extraction, about 4% are Latino and about 5% are African American. Nearly 70% of the students are white, a category that includes 450 students of Persian descent." So to say that the school is 70% Persian is a faulty conclusion. --Manway (talk) 20:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  School demographics 

message: I was wondering what happened to the Rival section in the info box listing Beverly HS rivals Culver City HS? The sources are still clearly cited at the bottom for reference, but the line in the info box is gone. Thanks. I think as the famous rivalry goes back over 50 years it is relevant to have it listed.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Causepowered (talk • contribs) 16:11, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  What happened to Rival section?  

message: Could someone please add more pictures? I found one from WikiCommons (of the gym), but surely a student or teacher/staff member could take pictures of the main buildings and playground?Zigzig20s (talk) 11:44, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There is now a picture of the main buildings thanks to User:Toglenn.Zigzig20s (talk) 21:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures 

message: The article currently states:
:In many movies, including Clueless, Real Women Have Curves, Whatever It Takes,  The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer, and It's a Wonderful Life, both of which featured a scene in Beverly's unique "Swim Gym," perhaps the only gymnasium that has a basketball court that can split open to reveal a recreational-sized,  swimming pool. 
Which two are the "both" films that feature the Swim Gym? I know that It's a Wonderful Life and Whatever It Takes did, but it's not clear which films the sentence is referring to. Did The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer also show the pool in the gym? The sentence should be clarified to indicate which films are being listed as depicting the pool in the gym. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 23:10, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Pool in gym

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message: Why is Alicia Silverstone not listed among the alumni? Katerinci (talk) 23:08, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is Alicia Silverstone not listed among the alumni?