Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga/Sailor Moon/Archive 2

message: Here is how I suggest the character articles be divided up. Mostly it's the same as before, but not entirely
Protagonists (only two changes suggested here):
*Individually, the 10 major senshi--Usagi, Ami, Rei, Makoto, Minako, Setsuna, Michiru, Haruka, Hotaru, Chibiusa
*Mamoru
*Queen Serenity
*Sailor Starlights / Three Lights (one article)
*Princess Kakyuu
*Sailor Cosmos
*Chibichibi (her own article, not combined with Cosmos or Galaxia)
*Individually, the cats: Luna, Artemis, and Diana
*Elios/Pegasus (who does not currently have his own article)
Minor characters:
I propose splitting this off into two Minor pages: one for civilians, and one for minor senshi and related characters. The latter would include characters such as Phobos and Deimos, Guardian Cosmos (who currently has her own article), Channel and Guccicci, the fairy in the Moon ruins (manga), etc.
Villains:
This, more than anything else, has been a point of contention in the past. I propose this.
Each season/arc would get its own page for that category of villains. Included in these pages would be a description of the group's origin and motives. This page would also include sections for only the uppermost leader (who, strangely, tends to be the least well-developed) as well as the current class of monster-of-the-day.
Then, sub-leaders (where relevant) get their own articles. Villains that come in teams get one team article. The result is a fairly tidy article set that looks like this:
*Dark Kingdom (also Queen Metallia, youma)
**Queen Beryl
**Shitennou (Jadeite, Nephrite, Zoisite, Kunzite)
*Makaiju/Doom Tree (also Ail and Ann, cardians)
*Planet Nemesis (also Wiseman/Death Phantom, droids(?))
**Black Moon Clan (Rubeus, Esmeraude, Saphir, Demande)
***Ayakashi Sisters (Cooan, Beruche, Calaveras, Petz)
**Black Lady would be a part of the 'Other Forms' section of Chibiusa's article''
*Death Busters (also Pharaoh 90, daimon)
**Professor Tomoe
**Kaolinite
**Witches 5 (Eudial, Mimete, Tellu, Viluy, Cyprine/Ptilol
**Mistress 9 (who is not the same person as Hotaru)
*Dead Moon Circus (also Zirconia, Zircon, and lemures)
**Neherenia
**Amazon Trio
**Amazoness Quartet
*Shadow Galactica (Chaos, phages)
**Galaxia
**Animamates (Iron Mouse, Aluminum Siren, Lead Crow, Tin Nyanko)
Movie characters:
I think characters like Peruru, Snow Kaguya, Fiore, etc. should only be included within their movie pages. The SuperS movie already does this, and it works well.
Questionable:
One thing I can't decide on at all is, where do we classify characters like Heavy Metal Pappilon, Chi and Phi, Lethe and Mnemosyne?
Okay! That's all I can think of. ^^ Thanks everyone! Please share your thoughts! --Masamage 04:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mm, I agree there should be an arc summary, but it's kinda unintuitive to put it in the villains page; then what you're describing would move from the Sailor Stars article to the Shadow Galactica article. But if each season had its own page (like Stars) does, that would be a fantastic place for it. --Masamage 17:17, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The Animamates that did not appear in the anime can be listed with the ones that did, only in a special "Manga only" section.  Just a thought...  --SaturnYoshi 14:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea! I like it. ^_^ --Masamage 17:17, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I like it, Though I the fact that other than a mention on one or two pages, that senshi like Demios and Phebios are getting no regintion. Though breif, they all played inportent roles in the version they come from. off the top of my head i can think of Deimos Phebos and buttress, Shrine of little known senshi would be a great place to start gathering info on the "missing" Senshi, be they good or evil.Lego3400: The Sage of Time 20:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They would be good in either Sailor Mars' page or the List of minor Sailor Moon characters. I don't know who "Buttress" is, but I think we're doing a much better job covering other obscure characters (especially at the Shadow Galactica page) these days. --Masamage 20:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Character bios proposal 

message: How much of Sailor V falls under our jurisdisction? All of it? Only that which is needed for SM? Also Should we include Sailor V items on the Sailor Moon item list since they are from the same universe? Lego3400: The Sage of Time 18:26, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say keep 'em separate. So far, I've just put anything that was in Sailor V without being in Sailor Moon in the Sailor V article, and included that article in our scope. --Masamage 18:57, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Codename wa Sailor V 

message: This is probably very, very picky, but the spoiler placements on the pages are not consistent... I would like to put them in the exact same place with the same kind of spoiler warning so people know where to place the spoilers and when not to.--Hitsuji Kinno 03:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Spoiler Placements

message: After this character cleanup thing, I think we should go back to the articles and do citations.
For a working example of this: Shinigami (Bleach)
See how they did it? 
The div class for the references and then the references tags, then within the body they have references. (see Modified Souls on the aforementioned page) I'd think this would be the next pressing thing to address. Once the profiles have references then we can sort out what needs to be added, altered more until we get to at least GA from a B. This will help to iron out a framework for what needs to be done on the other articles.--Hitsuji Kinno 03:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More Citation Stuff

message: How are we determining that these links are *that* special that they need to stay? Looking over the links I don't see any one link that is famous for being a shrine. Even for Rei, who had a shrine that started the fan term "shrine" that shrine is not listed. So I'd like to know how we are going to cull these links (specific type of links). Most of them seem to me to be aded by the owner or people who just like the shrine, but haven't verified the info, etc. --Hitsuji Kinno 15:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Shrine Links in Profiles

message: Reformatted it and added back some info. Heads up, please discuss at Talk page. --Hitsuji Kinno 15:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Chibiusa

message: Until we get our own chacter boxes, the major villans need heroboxes. Also The Sailor Quarttoo also need hero boxs and idivedual pics of both senshi and villan forms.Lego3400: The Sage of Time 16:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hero Boxes 

message: After finishing Mamoru and Chibiusa's formatting and adding references, I noticed that pages with more than one character are utter messes! So I have a simple proposal to fix this right up.
First, list the general category, general info, etc.
Character Name (heading)
Profile (no heading)
General Info (equivilent to profile Info)
Manga Version (Unnamed but paragraph given.)
Anime Version (uunnamed, but paragraph given.)
Items (Subheading) (if needed)
Attacks (sub heading) (if needed)
Music (if needed)
Actresses/Actor (if needed)
Then at the bottom put all the references together using the reference format, and same thing with external links and see alsos.
This will keep it to the format that Ami has on her particular page and be a lot easier to digest rather than putting it all in one place and making it difficult.
The only exception to this I would say is for the Amazoness Quartet. Since they have 2 major forms with different names, this makes it a bit more difficult. I would say that the basic format as I outlined above are still needed, but how it's to be organized, either by repetition, separation or merging the forms together still needs to be decided this should be confined to the talk page, in the meantime I'd ask people to reformat the pages accordingly if this is voted upon as OK, including the Sailor Starlights (Major overhaul is needed there).--Hitsuji Kinno 20:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Support! Support, I say! I don't think items and attacks need subheadings, but otherwise, dang yes. As for the Amazoness Quartet...actually, let's talk about that over there. --Masamage 00:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Enemy Profiles/ Mulitple Character Pages

message: The Main Sailor Moon article BARELY made it be B-class! Let's celebrate!!! And then take this to work our way up to featuring level! --Hitsuji Kinno 01:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Celebration!

message: I did some more looking up and according the the wikipedia manual of style, it has to go before references, then references, then external links. So I reorganized it, and added a few to the list. I wanted to use a bullet, but after doing 20+ pages I don't know if I bulleted them all. I did some minor clean up along the way too, but nothing major. 
Oh, and there is no citation process for TV, but I requested one... just so we don't have to go through the trouble of citing which translation it was, etc in the article. --Hitsuji Kinno 19:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: See also

message: While some of his points are "interesting" many of them are not sourced properly and thus, I'd vote to deal with the issues he brings up in this fashion:
# Give him credit for the idea
# Source real sources to back up his ideas, like Bullfinch's mythology.
Why:
# Many of Ian Miller's ideas are either fringe, strange, or he doesn't properly source his materials. For example, for the Amazones article he sourced a Japanese website on Amazones, but he does not read japanese. He's admitted several times that he can't really read Japanese, which led the the imfamous stint on sailormoon.org forums where he said that the Maboroshi no Ginzuishou was translated as "Silver Water Stone" failing to see zuishou means crystal. (You can see a version of this on the Sailor Moon newsletter)
# Many of his sources are old, for example, he cited an article from the 70's on Mau and said that Takeuchi spelled it wrong because Egyptian has no vowels, however, Hawas has stated NUMEROUS times that while they were not written in EARLY egyptian that they were in fact implied. He also purposefully misquoted the book, I dug it up for him and he got mad... I also have sources for this as well.
# Many of his ideas are excellent, however, many of them have not been 100% supported by the author or those involved, so unless directly stated, if it is fringe, it should be stated that it's not known if this is the intetnion of the author, which he's reluctant to admit on his own website.
# Some of his ideas are definitely fringe. Like the whole "You have to use the Japanese kanji for Violin Tide" and all attacks. (Despite Rainbow Honeymoon Therapy Kiss being in kanji) and also support for "Violon" v. "Violin" which currently Jeffrey's dictionary and other Japanese dictionaries don't support.
# Some of his ideas are pure specuation and while he has sources from language books, etc, he lacks support from the original series's statements from the creator or clear support (like Greek Mythology).
# He fails to often recognize puns within the series as well. (I think this is mainly due to his not being able to read Japanese properly, he can cipher, but he can't really put it together in a complete understanding).
# Many of his ideas start, but they lack to finish, like the "Pluto" "Saturn" switch. Originally I pulled him more sources for these ideas but he's not added them, and this goes for many of the fans that have tried to supply sources to add info on his website and correct his information.
# He's antagonized many of the fanship in the process of making his pages and has an attitude that many people do not appreciate. This can lead to reversion wars which are not to be appreciated. If you want a list of those he's antagonized, you need only look at this own website and message me on my talk page (and this does include Hitoshi Doi and Alex Glover.. and yes, he admitted he can't really understand Japanese... so you can see where I'm going with this).
Thus while he may have found the basic idea, the support on his own website is very, very thin ice, so I would say that instead of 100% relying on him (People see he's sourced, but then don't check his sources...). I'd source the original articles to support his statements, and thus discount any wrong information he provides within his own website. Primary over secondary. This will also create an emotional separation from using him entirely and get people to look  at the facts rather than the person who came up with it. It also directs people off of his website which contains many ideas people do not agree with, question his sources a bit more and think and find their own and generally mitigate any damage that could be done in terms of sourcing.
Is this fair?
--Hitsuji Kinno 19:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I had never heard of this guy; I'm not aware of us referencing him, but I think we should cite things up until it no longer looks like we are. Sounds bogus. --Masamage 21:34, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ian Miller

message: Okay! I've been plugging away at this all day and I think it's ready to launch:
Wikipedia:WikiProject Sailor Moon/Sailor Moon (manga)! Please respond quickly because I'm excited! :D  Probably I can get the anime one ready this weekend as well. --Masamage 23:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: PS. I actually have the release dates, too; those can be added directly any time. --Masamage 00:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, since this matches the conclusions we've been dicussing about the eventual manga page for quite some time, I'm going to be bold and just go ahead and move it to the main articlespace. Woohoo for progress!--Masamage 05:34, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, it looks about ready. Launching now--have at ye! :) --Masamage 20:16, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manga subpage 

message: Please join the discussion at Talk:Sailor Moon bootlegs. --Masamage 18:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Too late.  Deleted. --  Denelson83  19:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bootlegs article 

message: There seems to be a disagreement on how the songs should be formatted which is causing me headaches, so let's just settle it. I make it bullet style, and someone swoops in an makes it paragraph, make it paragraph, then bullets. Your choices are:
# Bullets
# paragraph form
Currently the Ami Mizuno article has BOTH. >.<;; What the hell is that? Seriously... Choose one and stick with it. Personally I favor bullets, easier to read, quick run down and you can put it in sequential order. Paragraphs are harder to skim. If you want to know if they sang X song you have to read all this other stuff before it. Version clearing and who they sanfg it with can be done after each song. Keeping it in sequential order will make it easier. So vote!
--Hitsuji Kinno 23:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: I'm giving everyone until October 27, 2006 to vote on this. That's more than a week. --Hitsuji Kinno 21:59, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Bullets! With a sentence or two after each. --Masamage 04:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Deadline's hit. Looks like this is okay. --Masamage 23:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Song formatting

message: Hello. The WikiProject Council is currently in the process of developing a master directory of the existing WikiProjects to replace and update the existing Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory.  These WikiProjects are of vital importance in helping wikipedia achieve its goal of becoming truly encyclopedic. Please review the following pages: 
*User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory 2, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Philosophy and religion Directory, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Sports Directory, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory/United States, (note: This page will be retitled to more accurately reflect its contents)
*User:Badbilltucker/History and society directory, and
*User:Badbilltucker/Science directory
and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory.
The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. 
It is my hope to have the existing directory replaced by the updated and corrected version of the directory above by November 1. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 22:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good to me. We're in Culture Directory 2, under "Anime and manga." --Masamage 07:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry if you tried to update it before, and the corrections were gone. I have now moved the new draft in the old directory pages, so the links should work better. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused you. B2T2 14:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project Directory 

message: Putting this here instead of Talk:Sailor Moon episode 001 so it will be seen:
Would it be a copyright violation to quote the full text of a Sailor Says segment? Does it perhaps depend on why it's quoted? --Masamage 07:21, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen direct quotes before on video game articles.  It should be okay, but I'm not an expert on policy.  I guess some digging around is in order.  -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 07:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as we don't take credit for making it up ourselves, give proper citation, (i.e. it's in this episode which originally aired (if we have that)) and put it in quotations it should be fine. It would be under the clause of fair use, which is that a part of a greater piece can be used in fictional and non-fiction work. As long as it's not the whole episode or more than ten percent you should be fine. ^^;; I looked that sort of thing up since I intend to publish... --Hitsuji Kinno 00:23, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sailor Says question