Talk:Vesica piscis

message: When and by whom was this symbol used historically? --FOo 06:07, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use 

message: Please note that the Vesica Piscis is the fish shape NOT the overlapping circles. Vesica Piscis is latin for fish face.CheeseDreams 18:40, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure. I've seen vesica piscis used to refer to the almond-shaped (or, if you're Pagan, vulva-shaped) region formed by the overlapping circles, without the "fish tails" found on the ichthus. See, e.g.:   —FOo 23:37, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an easy way to settle this issue. If someone could measure the width of the whole shape (including fish tails) and the height, and also measure the width of the shorter tailless shape. And then inform what the height-width ratio is of each of the two shapes. It is quite late in UTC land, so I, myself, will not check it till later.CheeseDreams 00:24, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shape 

message: I would like to propose merging this article with that of Ichthys. The object in question is the same, and they are really just uses of the same thing by different peoples. I think there should be a section on "Christian use of THAT SHAPE" and "Pre-Christian use of THAT SHAPE" in the surviving article, and then any other bits that are in each article as well. However, I do not know what the resulting article ought to be called, maybe Fish shaped religious symbol thing CheeseDreams 20:25, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge to Fish shaped religious symbol thing 

message: I have moved the section below out of the article because of concerns about verifiability.
From the article:
:Mystical and religious significance
:It has been the subject of mystical speculation at several periods of history, perhaps first among the Pythagoreans, who considered it a holy figure. The mathematical ratio of its width (measured to the endpoints of the "body", not including the "tail") to its height was reportedly believed by them to be 265:153. This ratio, equal to 1.73203, was thought of as a holy number, called the measure of the fish. The geometric ratio of these dimensions is actually the square root of 3, or 1.73205... (since if you draw straight lines connecting the centers of the two circles with each other, and with the two points where the circles intersect, then you get two equilateral triangles joined along an edge, as shown in light red in the diagram).
:Rational approximations to the square root of 3, improving as larger integers are used, include:
:: 1:2, 3:5, 4:7, 11:19, 15:26, 41:71, 56:97, 153:265, 209:362, 571:989 . . .
:The number 153 appears in the Gospel of John as the exact number of fish Jesus caused to be caught in a miraculous catch of fish, which is thought by some to be a coded reference to Pythagorean beliefs.
This section contains a number of unsourced speculations:
* "...subject of mystical speculation at several periods of history..." -- which periods of history? Cite please?
* "...perhaps first among the Pythagoreans, who considered it a holy figure." -- cite please?
* "...was reportedly believed by them to be 265:153." -- "reportedly"? Reported where?
* "...a holy number, called the measure of the fish" -- cite please?
* "...is thought by some to be a coded reference to Pythagorean beliefs." -- thought by whom? Cite please?
Can someone please provide verifiable cites from mainstream sources for these assertions before restoring this material? And, before you ask, please can you give something other than a website that does not appear to me to provide cites for any of these assertions:
*Mathematics of vesica areas (Bruce Rawles)
*Spiritual significance of Vesica Piscis (Bruce Rawles)
-- The Anome 07:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks -- I read the Mitchell book a long time ago (but I don't have it now), and I knew that many of these claims date back at least to late 19th-century / early 20th century books (and certainly weren't invented on some website), but I didn't really have specific references. AnonMoos 15:47, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, so because the author titled it "Musings on the Vesica Piscis" the paper is to be ignored, no matter the extensive list of references provided in the paper nor the fact of having been published in a peer-reviewed journal devoted to architecture and mathematics. Did you care to have even a cursory look at it? Uaxuctum 19:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "measure of the fish" 

message: I see that no one's posted on the talk page in a while.  It may be useful to note that this shape is used in Euclid's first proposition in Elements, where he uses it to construct an equilateral triangle.  Call the two centers of the circles A and B and one of their intersections C.  Connect A, B, and C to form a triangle.  In 2 (flat) dimensions, the triangle is equilateral because AB, BC, and AC are of equal length (they are each the radius of at least one of two circles of equal size).  A nifty little proof and an interesting historical context.  Just a suggestion.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.199.47 (talk) 04:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Euclid 

message: There is another esoteric number included: The connecting line between the centre of one of the circles and one of the points of intersection of the two circels is {\sqrt{13}} (multiplied with circles diameter), resp. {\sqrt{13} \over 2} (multiplied with width of the vesica piscis)...
212.23.104.120 (talk) 18:56, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What?! That line segment is the radius. —Tamfang (talk) 19:04, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  √ 13 

message: I added the following and one reference (I need to take the time to come up with other references)... The most famous example in nature of the vesica piscis is, of course, when a solar eclipse occurs. At various points in the Moon's orbit, it appears to be exactly the same size of the Sun while observing both from Earth. As the Moon moves to cover the Sun, it forms a vesica piscis. This had great significance to the ancients! In many ancient cultures, the Sun was a male god and the Moon a goddess, and the vesica piscis symbolized the opening or gateway between these two polarities through which creation can take place Nicholas R. Mann, The Sacred Geometry of Washington, D.C. p. 92 (Barnes & Noble, 2006). The ancient Egyptians practiced sacred geometry based on "As above, so below". Architects and artists copied the solar eclipse/vesica piscis and its mathematics in their sacred buildings and artwork to reflect their religious beliefs. This ancient tradition was passed on through the centuries by the Freemasons. Nicholas R. Mann, The Sacred Geometry of Washington, D.C., p. 92  (Barnes & Noble, 2006) - Brad Watson, Miami, FL 71.196.11.183 (talk) 18:26, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm skeptical. You don't see a vesica during a solar eclipse ... —Tamfang (talk) 19:02, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solar eclipse forms vesica piscis, "As above, so below" & sacred geometry 

message: Removed the below text as its citations are unreliable conspiracy theories/mysticism. A well written NPOV section on the mystical associations of the symbol would be appropriate here (I imagine this is mostly why people come to the article) but the below does not meet this standard since it uncritically presents these theories as though true (adding the hedge "according to some" alone does not in and of itself make something NPO:
"The vesica piscis has been the subject of mystical speculation at several periods of history, and is viewed as important in some forms of Kabbalah. More recently, numerous New Age authors have interpreted it as a yonic symbol and claimed that this, a reference to the female genitals, is a traditional interpretation.Barbara Walker, The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets (Harper San Francisco, 1983).Kevin L. Gest, The Secrets of Solomon's Temple ().Kathy Jones, The Goddess in Glastonbury (1990).Margaret Starbird, Magdalene's Lost Legacy, Symbolic Numbers & Sacred Union.Constance S. Rodriguez PhD, LCSW - Sacred Portals, Pathways to the Self ().Dion Fortune, The Mystical Qabalah (1935).
One author claims that the total solar eclipse inspires images of the vesica piscis.Nicholas R. Mann, The Sacred Geometry of Washington, D.C. p. 92 (Barnes & Noble, 2006) The ancient Egyptians practiced sacred geometry based on the shape. Architects and artists copied the solar eclipse/vesica piscis and its mathematics in their sacred buildings and artwork to reflect their religious beliefs. This ancient tradition was passed on through the centuries by the Freemasons.Nicholas R. Mann, The Sacred Geometry of Washington, D.C., p. 92  (Barnes & Noble, 2006)"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.67.244 (talk) 13:28, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Mysticism 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: # Could a pronunciation key like the one found in Modus ponens be created for Vesica piscis?
# This seems to be a western-centric article (which may be fine). Are there any mathematical/artistic/spiritual uses/appearances of the vesica piscis in Asian histories/societies? 2601:88:8100:7443:C42E:B844:D573:545 (talk) 03:56, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two questions from a passerby  

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