Talk:Ich bin ein Berliner

message: Would someone be able to explain, why it is "ein" and not "einen"? 50.158.229.206 (talk) 23:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Gleichsetzungsnominativ  Guidod (talk) 03:18, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Grammar query

message: * In the X-Files episode "Schizogeny", Mulder erroneously tells a teen with the poster "Ich bin ein Auslander" (mistakenly spelled Auslander, correct spelling is Ausländer) that when Kennedy said "Ich bin ein Berliner" he was saying "I am a Berliner ", leading to the teen's response: "Who's Kennedy?".
::I have always had a memory of Mulder saying 'Did you know that when JFK said 'Ich bin ein Berliner' he was actually saying 'I am a cocktail sausage'.' Different episode perhaps?Robbmonster (talk) 09:48, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Robbmonster's right. That IS what he actually says, in that episode. However, he also mistranslates "auslander" as "outsider", when it actually means "foreigner/outlander". Does anyone know from where Mulder gets the cocktail sausage thing? I can't seem to find it anywhere else.Mousenight (talk) 08:13, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: The phrase and the legend in fiction and popular culture

message: Kennedy says, "And I am proud to ... come here in the company of my fellow American, General Clay, who has been in this city during its great moments of crisis and will come again if ever needed." Does anyone know who is this General Clay? --Acepectif 09:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be Lucius D. Clay. —Angr 10:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: General Clay

message: I removed "Although it has no basis in fact, the legend has since been repeated by reputable media, such as the BBC[8], The Guardian[9], MSNBC[10], CNN[11], Time magazine[12], and in several books about Germany written by English-speaking authors, including Norman Davies[13]." If you follow those links, you will not find any mention of President Kennedy or jelly doughnuts. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 02:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, and I really don't mean to be rude, but did you even pay attention to the links?  The footnoted links do mention Kennedy and jelly doughnuts.  It is a little above halfway down in the BBC link, and at the very bottom on the CNN link.  Watch the movie on the MSNBC link. It clearly provides the incorrect translation almost halfway through.  Comments by random people below it are both right and wrong.  The third paragraph in the Time article mentions the myth without expanation.  The Guardian article, however does say that the myth is false.  I will be reinstating the section without the Guardian.  I do not know about the book.  Regards, Reywas92Talk 03:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Reywas's reversion restored some OR that I had previously removed, and deleted quotation marks that were quite proper.  I have reverted to a previous version of the article. Robert K S (talk) 03:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Not quite. It has been misunderstood by Americans. The fact the the speech was given in berlin, and the myth is not even known of by most Germans seems to indicatate that it can't be misunderstood in context. It CAN be misunderstood perhaps if you misunderstand the context.--66.153.117.118 (talk) 18:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources don't back up statement.

message: He actually said I am a jelly dough nut. Ich bin Berliner is the correct phrase. this needs to be redone... after discussion of course. At the very least we have to present this neutral as well as the parenthetical translation needs to be correct. Superbowlbound (talk) 21:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It had been discussed, see archives. You presented no new argument for an appeal. Note that you have to persuade a jury of a dozen Berlin residents that watch this page, so chances are verrry low. Guidod (talk) 01:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

text: On a similar note, Time makes fools of us all.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.153.117.118 (talk) 18:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

text: saying you are A New Yorker is just that, in English; this bears no comparison to German language expression. Joe Chop (talk) 16:02, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

text: ;_; boy that was really mixed up 86.137.14.104 (talk) 00:56, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I might take it that a single person gets along the non-obvious meaning of a phrase but you can not make me to believe that a complete group at a hundred percent wanted to get it wrong when I can't find anyone in Germany that got it wrong actually. I assume your memory is failing you on this point - remember that people do not necessarily laugh on a grammatical error but more on the political momentum of a phrase ("nice speech to no avail"). An extended version of the myth speaks about "the audience laughed" connecting it the alleged grammatical error where in fact the laughter occurred when JFK did thank the interpreter for translating his German phrase (who was actually repeating it). So, yes, there was laughter around the phrase, but no, it was not based on some alleged grammatical error (repeat: there is NO grammatical error, period. There is just a low chance of a double meaning for people to know other interpretations of the word "Berliner" being rightout impossible in Berlin at the time of the speech). Guidod (talk) 16:28, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Kennedy may or may not have been correct. However I deplore the attempt to shut down debate on this, the extent to which non-Germans are trying to interpret the German language, and the absence of balance in the article. What is clear is that only Germans, and probably only Berlin residents, are qualified to make a pronouncement on this. Secondly, as the article notes "while the indefinite article ein is omitted when speaking of an individual's profession or residence, it is still necessary when speaking in a figurative sense as Kennedy did. Since the President was not literally from Berlin but only declaring his solidarity with its citizens".  This is in fact confirmation that Kennedy was wrong. For the "indefinite article ein is omitted when speaking of an individual's profession or residence". That is precisely what he was doing. Kennedy was talking of himself as being a resident of Berlin, just as in his analogy people were declaring their status as citizens of Rome. This is no philological basis for the suggesting that the ein is not omitted when talking in a figurative sense, whatever that means. Nor is any cited. A Roman citizen is not making a figurative reference, but a statement of legal status, so why interpret Kennedy as doing so? I learnt a little German, but a friend of mine is "a Berliner", a German school teacher, brought up in east Berlin. According to her Kennedy was incorrect, the ein should have been omitted.125.237.105.102 (talk) 03:28, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: She's just wrong, and so are you. --Amga (talk) 21:10, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Not an urban legend

message: *In 2007 Mongolia released a new 'talking' coin with JFK on the obverse which speaks the phrase "Ich bin ein Berliner". Source Times Online
silly rabbit (talk) 11:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved from the article

message: Is there still a debate on this? i gather it is understood now that Kennedy called himself a doughnut, and the point made above under "Not an urban legend" is poignant: if i say to an English speaker, "i am a Danish"* i will be taken for a visitor from slightly north of Germany, and naturally not for an iced pastry with apricot jelly in the middle. But the comparison is perfect, thus the grins on the faces of the crowd filmed during the speech. 
He could have spoken in Hamburg without disastrous effects and resulting debate, as a "hamburger" is just another pure American fiction (as are frankfurters, also a kind of comminuted retrieved-meat product). 
Still: nobody so far has been recorded entering a German baker's asking for a Kennedy - perhaps it's time.
* "ich bin ein Kopenhagener" would be a close literal translation to "i am a Danish", as these statements relate to the exact same pastry; 
...and with regard to "I agree with the urban legend section, but...", i must make this correction: a pfann(pfanne=pan)kuchen(=cake) is, as you see, a pancake and not a dough nut! 
::Sorry, but your correction is wrong. The German language is varied enough that a single term may have a lot of regionally different meanings. Going by your pancake example: a "Pfannkuchen" can be a pancake, but also (e.g. in Berlin) a Berliner (pastry), or in Austria an Omelette. ~ a German native 21:52, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are missing the point. "I am a Danish" is not correct English. The correct term would be "I am Danish". Of course people understand what is meant, but that does not make the term correct. Kennedy did not say "I am from Berlin" (as a citizen or resident), but "I am a Berlin [doughnut]". Again, of course people understood what he meant to say. But is was still a mistake. I do not understand the continued debate on this. Are Americans unable to accept that Kennedy was not a God, and did make mistakes?125.237.105.102 (talk) 03:36, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Joe: we are just applying the Wikipedia policies on reliable sources and original research.  Even if you are a native German speaker, that by itself does not qualify you to present your opinions as factual in this article.  Sorry if this offends you, but it's the way Wikipedia works.  Grover cleveland (talk) 19:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

text: You're my new hero of analogies "I am a Danish" is the perfect analogue (from my limited German). I don't really have anything to add, I'd never heard the doughnut thing before visiting here but my German teacher (a native teaching me a basic course in technical German, but also a teacher of post A-level students) did point out that the use of ein in this instance was wrong; I made that mistake so many times! pbhj / 91.108.172.2 (talk) 22:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Guys, please stop speculating and read the Eichhoff article!  Eichhoff is not only a native German speaker but a professional expert on the German language.  If he says that Kennedy's phrase was correct, that should settle the matter, unless someone can find a comparable source to contradict him.  (And by a "comparable source" we do NOT mean someone who has taken a few German lessons in high school!)  Grover cleveland (talk) 14:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: All of this has already been discussed, including the above "I am a danish" insight. Have a look in the talk archives. ProhibitOnions (T) 08:14, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

text: The only people able to comment on whether Kennedy made an error or not are native German speakers, but more specifically those from Berlin.  What do they generally say? There are many variants of German.203.184.41.226 (talk) 08:11, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, when the Berliners (me included) here say "Ich bin ein Berliner!", there is a big poof and they turn into a jelly doughnut! No, seriously, it's not an issue. If anything, they wonder why Americans/English bring it up at all. I was, for example, at the 40th anniversary commemoration of the speech back in 2003 and I remember at the end: "...an American guitarist, Tom Cunningham, started some country-western numbers like “Born in the USA”. He said he’s got a daughter enrolled in JFK School too. Then he had to crack that old joke of Kennedy saying, back-translated “I am a jelly doughnut.” No one laughed near me; only I did, more out of surprised shock." (my full report at: http://www.alanbenson.de/events/jfk/jfk.html) Alandeus (talk) 14:20, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Doughnut Calling

message: The "jelly donut" story makes not sense, that's correct. "Ich bin ein Berliner" could have been misunderstood as "I am a jelly-filled donut" - but only if during one the most emotional times in Berlin and one of the most important speeches (from a Berliner point of view) by the most powerful person in the world, talking about world politics for 90 minutes, someone was only thinking about something to eat... Well, in short: It makes no sense at all.
However, if the "Ich bin ein Kölsch" story by Bill Clinton is true, he did make a mistake: A "Kölsch" is only the beer, definitely not an inhabitant of Cologne, who is still called "ein Kölner" (or maybe "ein Kölsche Jung" or something like that) - but "ein Kölsch" can never be confused, especially in a bar. When the bar man doesn't react on "bring mir ein Kölsch" (bring me a beer!!!), he gets killed :-) Sorry, Bill... but I guess everyone was happy and laughed, and no-one felt offended by the mistake.
For my reputation, I am a native speaker of German and have lived here for all of my life. 
--62.54.12.70 (talk) 17:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's hilarious.  Yes, "Ich bin ein Kölsch" cannot mean anything other than "I am a beer."  It's actually funnier than "Ich bin ein Berliner," which could go either way (though I think that one sounds a little silly too).--98.111.164.239 (talk) 13:12, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

text: And you would have gone for English, the best you could, and said "I am a...erm, de Cologne, right? ;) 83.254.154.164 (talk) 12:34, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: The "Kölsch" translation is wrong

message: While sometimes Wikipedia seems like SimpsonPedia, or USPresidentialCandidatePedia, it is not.  Accordingly, I have moved these factoids from the article.  Please make a case for their inclusion here. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 16:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Popular culture

message: I am of the opinion that these do not belong in the article; these are the kinds of things you see in lists of miscellaneous information at the ends of articles that aren't particularly good.  It is not the aim of wikipedia to make reference to every joke included in the Simpsons, nor to include every detail of what happens to be the current presidential campaign in the United States.--66.32.247.67 (talk) 06:51, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ensuing discussion

message: An anon IP recently changed a quoted passage in the text.  I have verified that the original statement was correct (prior to the change).  Here is a google books link to a snippet containing the quote in question. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 21:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Verification of Berlin game quote

message: Why not link to the text at Wikiquote  instead of some other source? --JensMueller (talk) 20:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikiquote

message: This text is given as a quotation:
:Kennedy should have said "Ich bin Berliner" to mean "I am a person from Berlin." By adding the indefinite article ein, his statement implied he was a non-human Berliner, thus "I am a jelly doughnut".
But the corresponding reference doesn't contain this exact quote at all.  So where did it come from?  It's all over the internet, but that seems to be because people are taking it from this page.  Can anyone say where this pair of sentences originally came from?  Lfh (talk) 11:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I should clarify that I am not talking about the "legend" itself - nobody wants to bring that up again - just the exact phrasing above, which appears to be original to Wikipedia. Lfh (talk) 12:06, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct. This is going to have to be tweaked, and sourced better. Drmies (talk) 17:26, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: See e.g. U.S. presidents as orators: a bio-critical sourcebook, p. 219. As the book is from 1995, this particular form of the misconception didn't originate from Wikipedia. Hans Adler 22:31, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Reference problem

message: I will remove all language from this article referring to an "urban legend" of the President's choice of words if there is no resolution by Tuesday 15 Decemeber 2009 12:00 PM PST. Here is the question (please respond "Aye", "No" or "Not Voting"):
Shall the "urban legend" language in this article remain in place ?  GnarlyLikeWhoa (talk) 02:32, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Even that is simply not true. "Berliner" (= doughnut) and "Berliner" (= inhabitant or native of Berlin) are homonyms just like "cell" and "cell". If you enter a terrorist cell it's one kind of cell, and if you enter a monk's cell it's a completely different word that's merely spelled and pronounced the same way. And in German if you eat or buy a Berliner it's one kind of Berliner, and if you are or greet a Berliner it's the other kind. You had better not confuse the two, or you might get into trouble. Hans Adler 19:44, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This section is dedicated to voting. What you're doing is a kind of electioneering; in any case, I really hope you don't think you're swaying my vote. Thank you. GnarlyLikeWhoa (talk) 20:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Might I remind the editors here, there is no voting when reaching consensus. Paranormal Skeptic (talk) 20:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

text: There should never be a pure vote on Wikipedia. It should be a discussion, which is the purpose of the discussion page. While you may be too ignorant of the German (as there are many native and non-native speakers who know that what Kennedy said was "I am a person from Berlin") to realize that anything said about him referencing a doughnut is an utter falsehood, per the very numerous reasons that the President was correct and no one misunderstood him, we are providing reasons to make sure no one else thinks Kennedy is a jelly doughnut. Reywas92Talk 20:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: December 2009 Vote on Removal of Urban Legend Language

message: Hi, the lede is too long compared to the rest of the article, and needs to be balanced to accurately summarise the article as a whole. I will add this to my long list of things to look at that never seem to get done. Brilliantine (talk) 01:07, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: lede too long

message: The sound file in this article is interrupted at exactly 4:00 minutes with a voice that is distinctly not Kennedy's (then the speech resumes). Has this sound file been "doctored"? The voice is very similar to that of Goebbels. What's up with that? Dr. Dan (talk) 04:29, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The voice definitely doesn't sound like that of Goebbels at all. The sentence is "Aber lasst auch sie nach Berlin kommen." (But let them come to Berlin as well.) This is a fragment of the official German translation of Kennedy's speech. Apparently the German translation was generally cut out from the file, but at this point the editor made a mistake and left one sentence in. (It's a German voice, and there is less overdrive, presumably because the German speaker was not using a different microphone etc., or was better used to it.) The editor may have been confused because shortly before 4:00 Kennedy did incorporate a similar German sentence. (At 3:54: "Lasst sie nach Berlin kommen – let them come to Berlin.") Hans Adler 08:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the clarification. I was concerned that someone might have slipped something into the recording. As for the "definitely doesn't sound like", I still think there was a strong resemblance to PJG's voice. Maybe it was also in the voice's inflection. I'll take your word on it though. Dr. Dan (talk) 17:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

text: To Hans Adler:  In the German transcript, I only see the version with "auch": "Aber laßt auch sie nach Berlin kommen." (https://www.berlin.de/berlin-im-ueberblick/geschichte/artikel.453085.php)Kdammers (talk) 22:59, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Sound File

message: Part of that text is incorrect :
It's worth recalling, again, President John F. Kennedy's use of a German phrase while standing before the Berlin Wall. It would be great, his wordsmiths thought, for him to declare himself a symbolic citizen of Berlin. Hence, Ich bin ein Berliner. What they did not know, but could easily have found out, was that such citizens never refer to themselves as "Berliners." They reserve that term for a favorite confection often munched at breakfast. So, while they understood and appreciated the sentiments behind the President's impassioned declaration, the residents tittered among themselves when he exclaimed, literally, "I am a jelly-filled doughnut."[5]
Of course Berliners do refer to themself as Berliners, when they are asked where they are from, they say Ich bin Berliner and when
someone asks them, if they are from somewhere else, they say, nein, ich bin ein Berliner. In other words to emphesise identification with Berliners one would say Ich bin e i n  Berliner, could also say Ich bin a u c h  e i n Berliner, I am also a Berliner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.185.229.198 (talk • contribs) 
:You are of course totally right – except about the minor detail that the article doesn't claim that Berliners don't refer to themselves as such. It quotes a New York Times editorial from 1988. I have now slightly adjusted the text so that this is a bit more clear. 
:By the way, the misconception is so wide-spread that it's hard to defend this article against the "no smoke without fire" crowd who believe if enough people believe something it becomes true. Hans Adler 09:45, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  further : I just see the box about this problem on this discussion page now - it cannot be better clarified than in the few sentences of this box - as it can be seen in this discussion there were still mistakes in the text in september 2010. Obviously the German speaking world does not refer to this urban myth, because this speech was too important for Berlin. Plehn (talk) 20:11, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The article was correct in September. The original poster had thought that a literal quotation (an example of the misconception from the New York Times) was part of what the article says itself. In the meantime I have put a box around the quotation to prevent the confusion. Hans Adler 21:10, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: To emphesise Ich bin  e i n  Berliner

message: By the way, nobody puts jelly in doughnuts, it's JAM, as in jam doughnut.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.208.211.202 (talk) 23:15, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: But the more common term is jelly doughnuts even if there is jam in there. See the the difference in Google hits and countless references to this urban legend for example. Will have to correct everything back to jelly. Alandeus (talk) 15:24, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

text: This is primarily an American myth, and Americans call jam jelly. If the definitions at Fruit preserves#Jam and Fruit preserves#Jelly can be believed, there is actually a slight semantic difference. The kind of jam found in Berliners does not contain pieces of fruit, so according to those definitions it would be jelly, not jam. Hans Adler 20:57, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

text: Reverting to jelly. Reminder (see above): The more common term is jelly doughnuts and the countless references to this urban legend are jelly. And: This is primarily an American myth. Finally, this article is in US English. “Jam doughnut” is therefore not the correct term.Alandeus (talk) 14:46, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

text: In American English, jam and jelly are simply different things. Jelly is fruit juice with gelatin or pectin added to thicken it. Jam is mashed fruit with pectin, and it is not strained. However, "Jelly Donut" includes all filled donuts, sometimes excluding "cream" fillings. (cream fillings are often A jam-filled donut is still a "jelly donut," but "toast and jam" would always have jam. This isn't any more confusing to Americans than "ich bin ein Berliner" would be to a Berliner. ;) Etymology is not authoritative, usage is.76.105.216.34 (talk) 05:24, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

text: it is more common. Any more changes will be treated like vandalism.  Hot Stop talk-contribs 23:18, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

text: Again, the myth is of US origin, so it is named by its original name. Any modifications will be treated as vandalism, just as it was handled in the years before. Guidod (talk) 19:58, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

text: Stop dictating how others use their language - you have even changed quoted speech, so you have modified history. Note that there is no US-English wikipedia, there is just one covering all the flavours of English. If there is a story based in a specific region that its style of English is being given priority - you may put explanations in parenthesis for other regions (like we do for metric measures) but just converting all references of "jelly" to "jam" is no option. Guidod (talk) 16:54, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  By the way, nobody puts jelly in doughnuts, it's JAM 

message: If somebody in germany says "I am a Berliner" (Ich bin ein Berliner) nobody thinks of a doughnut. So it is clear in germany nobody laughed when he said "Ich bin ein Berliner." 
This joke is a completely american invention. Is is not known in Germany.
Jms (talk) 15:50, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *sigh* YES. Read the rest of this talk page.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.14.4.8 (talk) 10:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

text: to the former Manheimer, the words berliner (citizen of Berlin) and Berliner (doughnot) are pronounced exactly the same. There is no difference. I am German. 84.215.194.30 (talk) 12:51, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  from a native German 

message: I've removed the following text from the article:
The origin of the misconception is obscure. An early sighting occurred in volume 55 of Management Review (1966):
 
The editor has been misled by the way Google Books dates periodicals:  it dates the entire series based on the date of the first issue.  In fact, it is apparent that this issue of Management Review is from the mid-to-late 1980s -- probably mid 1986, based on an advertisement for a conference in June of that year, which can easily be found by searching for the string "1986" within the volume.. Grover cleveland (talk) 08:56, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed reference to "Management Review"

message: I don't want to comment on whether Kennedy make a grammatical error in German or not, but the tone of the article as a whole is POV. To say that the "speech is considered one of Kennedy's best, both a notable moment of the Cold War and a high point of the New Frontier" is unreferenced confused and unencyclopaedic. A speech may be at a "notable moment", and a high point of the "New Frontier". That may make a speech important, but does not make it better or the best. To say that it was "a great morale boost for West Berliners" is simply unreferenced opinion. Unless these opinions can be adequately supported by credible references, they should be deleted.125.237.105.102 (talk) 03:51, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article POV 

message: Just a brief comment about the final sentence in the introduction. "To Germans his words were received with sincerity, very endearing and very uniquely American!" Clearly this is not an objective POV, especially with no citation or reference. Both uses of the word "very" are meaningless and unnecessary. Finally, An exclamation point has no place outside of a quote in a Wikipedia article. 
Dkelber (talk) 14:06, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV and Grammar 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Ich bin ein Berliner. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130122023341/http://cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/09/ to http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/09/
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Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 09:17, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article presently has  with both of these sentences being cited with permalinks to the German Wikipedia. This is a use of WP:PRIMARY sources, and while WP:CIRCULAR allows citation of Wikipedia to discuss Wikipedia, it also notes  As such, this article would benefit from a WP:SECONDARY source to show that this isn't undue, to properly contexualize it, etc. I have not deleted anything, just requested there be an additional reference other than Wikipedia itself, but this whole paragraph seems to be WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH and full of WP:SYNTHESIS. Umimmak (talk) 17:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion of German Wikipedia 

message: I may be overlooking something but it appears that one part of the article says 150,000 people were in attendance, and in another, 450,000 - start of paragraph 4 in introduction, and first paragraph of Delivery section.  Of if these numbers refer to different groups rather than different estimates, perhaps that could be clarified?  Rosie Willis (talk) 00:31, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  crowd size?