Talk:Bipolar disorder/Archive 2

message: Let's try this again. I noticed that a short time ago that one editor deleted the entire introduction.  While I agree that the previous introduction was too long, I also believe the article needs an introduction of some sort (maybe on the order of two or three paragraphs plus the note on usage).  Also, some of the content from the old introduction probably could/should have been moved into the main section of the article, but I don't think this was done.  Anyone else agree and/or want to give some attention to this?  -- Ithacagorges 22:56, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. While the old introduction was not great, and had quite a bit that should have been in the body of the article, the article does need at least something as an intro. -- ascorbic 23:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction

message: Number one: The page could use more information on mixed states. If/When I get a chance, I'll add it.  No time at present or for coming weeks.
Number two:  People are disparaging the term 'manic depression', but I know I am not the only one out here who prefers the term to bipolar disorder. It is precisely because of mixed states that I say this.
Manic Depression is, in my view, a better term for the condition, the reason being that there really aren't two poles.  It is possible to be manic and depressed at the same time, believe it or not.  These so-called "mixed states" are can be the most troubling--I know they are for me.  Many people have a somewhat romantic notion of manias, but when you're your mind is hyperactive but you're unhappy, it really sucks.  The best word that comes to mind to describe this is "aggitation".  It is hard to deal with people in relationships when they are being this way.  It's also when people feel crap enough to kill themselves, but have the energy to pull it off.
Number three: From the introduction:
"the term manic depression is also now used (by a relatively small number of mental health professionals) to refer to the entire clinical spectrum of mood disorders that includes both bipolar disorder and unipolar depression."
COULD SOMEONE GIVE A CITATION FOR THIS PLEASE?  I THINK THIS IS WRONG.  I've never heard anyone say that unipolar depression is a form of manic depression!  I'd respectfully admit I was wrong if you have any sources.  But at any rate, I think it's such a minority that it's misleading to put it in the introduction.  However, bipolar spectrum disorders is another thing... Bipolar I, bipolar II, cyclothymia, etc...
Cheers, Pigkeeper, Oct 17, 2005
:I've never heard this either and I agree with you that it's probably in error.  One other point is that when bipolar disorder is caused by antidepressants (i.e. a depressed person takes antidepressants and becomes manic for the first time) some psychiatrists refer to this as "latent bipolar disorder" becoming evident.  This is an obscene interpretation of a fairly obvious cause and effect relationship. -- Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC
Feb 2005 Journal of Affective Disorders had a entire issue devoted to the *theory* of Hagop Akiskal MD of the University of California at San Diego about Bipolar and Unipolar Despression being on the same spectrum. Journal of Affective Disorders: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=IssueURL&_tockey=%23TOC%234930%232005%23999159997%23568410%23FLA%23&_auth=y&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=40fc023079b068243a79a0dad8579d7e And a layman's description is here: http://www.mcmanweb.com/mood_spectrum.htm
Curlywhirly 03:52, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mixed States ; "Bipolar" vs. "Manic Depression"; Manic depression includes unipolar?! 

message: This article is presently a bit chaotic. I've done some cleaning up, but there are still two sections about creativity and bipolar disorder etc etc.
I feel the article still lacks the basics, but contains the latest research that has made the popular press. That is immensely confusing for the reader. There's a lot of work to do here. On the Medical WikiProject, we stick to a fixed format: signs and symptoms, diagnosis, mechanisms of disease, treatment etc, see here. This may be less suited for this article, but may be worth trying. JFW | T@lk 23:18, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chaos 

message: Anonymous user 24.199.113.69 keeps adding a link to http://bipolartreatment.com in multiple sections of several articles, including Medicine where it is inappropriate - what can be done to prevent him or her from repeating this over and over again? unsigned comment 19:26, 23 November 2005 by Anarchist42
Same from other anonymous IP addresses.  Getting quite aggressive with the linkspamming. CarbonCopy 19:44, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link vandal 

message: I heard that the country with the lowest rates of bipolar disorder is france. What is the cause of that. I May have heard something about natural salts? any help would be apreciated. ---Bohouse 20:50, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Natural salts high in lithium? JFW | T@lk 23:11, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: France

message: Man this article is riddled w/poor writing.  I don't have time to work w/it now but we need more quality information (better no info than false/poorly supported info!)  I changed some things under the "creativity" section; there has been TONS of research on BP & creativity links, so it shouldn't be hard to cite.  I added two articles, but i don't know how to put them under the reference section.  anyone else  w/access to a university library database could fix this for me... --Katwmn6 00:39, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry it's not in the best of states now. Feel free to remove whatever sounds illogical or cannot be backed up with a CITE. This is an important condition, and there is little reliable information online. Wikipedia should have a good article on it. JFW | T@lk 15:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: clean this sh*t up!

message: I'm sure many people who have these mental problems will want to know how to protect their children from their outbursts, and how to explain their out-of-control behaviors to their children.  I have seen some children who were told that their parent's behavior is "normal", who then LEARNED to copy the behaviors and attitudes, which created many problems for the children. (karenjoyce_bell).
:Their outbursts?  Which outbursts would those be?  Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 15:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As opposed to the general population which never gets angry, high or depressed.  Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 18:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

text: "Mental problems?" You remind me of a teacher I once heard say that bipolar patients should never be so "selfish" as to raise children. misanthrope 17:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please add a section on how Bipolar and Schizophrenic parents affect children's self esteem and safety. 

message: in the section "Domains of bipolar disorder," there is a brief mention of Hypomania, but there isn't really a description of its features beyond its characterization as "mania-lite." Honestly, after reading this article (and knowing a few BPs) I'm curious as to what hypomania is, and the article didn't really do it for me. Can anyone expand this section? Shaggorama 05:28, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hypomania 

message: I have a concern about smkatz edit of the first paragraph. 
Treatment of disabling bipolar disorder is with mood stabilizers, prominently lithium salts and/or some anticonvulsants and/or anti-psychotic (also known as neuroleptic medications). When antipsychotic medications are indicated, they are often used "off-label". Such off-label usage is controversial. Some antipsychotics have recently been approved for management of acute bipolar mania crises.
To the best of my knowledge, the use of antipsychotic medications for Bipolar is not off label any more than anticonvusants. In most cases AP and AC use is in line with all of the current major treatment guideline publications in the scientific literature. For example, the American Psychiatric Asociation http://www.psych.org/psych_pract/treatg/pg/bipolar_revisebook_index.cfm I'd be very interested in seeing any other information you may have. Curlywhirly 23:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Off Label Use of APs

message: This is a fairly common phenomenon which should be addressed in the article.  When mania occurs as a result of antidepressant use (particularly SSRIs), the psychiatrist typically responds by labelling the patient bipolar and adding mood stabilizers into the mix.  A more appropriate course of action would be to treat the patient for what he/she is actually undergoing:  a toxic reaction to psychotropic medication.  Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 04:16, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Bipolar disorder is a real disorder that affects millions.  Individuals are not treated with medications unless they display symptoms.  Bipolar symptoms that are caused by an antidepressant would be infrequent occurances if they occur at all. If it is so common and frequent, it would be great to see citations. --24.55.228.56 13:14, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

text: 24.55.228.56, Yes of course Bipolar is real. However I must say that manic or manic type reactions to antidepressants are not as rare as we could wish. And the DSM-IV does specifically state that reaction to meds negates the BP diagnosis. Of course, the DSM-IV is not the perfect answer to everything, but it is the standard used by psychiatry at this time and so it does have relevance. In the Paxil prescribing information http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_paxil.pdf I found the following list of possible adverse reactions that could be or appear to be or may be related to manic/psychiatric reactions; Insomnia, Agitation, Nervousness, Anxiety, Hallucinations, Emotional Lability, Abnormal Thinking, Euphoria, Hostility, Manic Reaction, Paranoid Reaction, Antisocial Reaction, Delusions, Manic Depressive Reaction, Psychotic Depression, Psychosis. Other SSRI medications have similar adverse reaction profiles according to the manufacturers. I can list their PI pages if necessary so we can look at them individually if you wish. I think this may be an important issue to discuss in the article. Curlywhirly 18:14, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Hi, Curlywhirly.  You might be responding to my own response to some very condescending pro-psychiatry editors.  I am endeavouring to provide further information so that others can be spared what I went through.  Regardless of what the DSM says, the fact is that many depressed patients are treated with antidepressants, become manic as a result, and are forever afterwards treated as bipolar.  Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 01:16, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Here is an article that deals with various adverse effects of SSRI treatment, including mania:  http://www.mcmanweb.com/article-19.htm  Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 01:51, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am very familiar with that article and the information therein. It does point out some serious problems with SSRI medications when given to someone with Bipolar disorder or other genetic vunerability to negative effects. However that is a very one sided article as the author did not cite ebven one bit of evidence of the *benefits* of these meds and the hundreds and even thousands of people who have been helped. I have no doubt about the problems associated with these meds OR the benefits, which is why we need to get fair and balanced information out, so that people can make informed choices. Curlywhirly 05:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, most everything you find will have the bias and POV of the author or whomever is paying for the article to be written. That is why an article with NPOV is so important on Wikipedia. Do you have any facts to back up your claims about psychiatry? I have yet to see you post a citation that directly supports any of your disputed statements. Instead you post innuendos and cast allegations. If you care to discuss facts then I am your gal, otherwise I have other things to do with my time and energy. Curlywhirly 
I've posted several links to good information -- articles by Dr. Peter Breggin and journalist Robert Whitaker, just to name a couple.  I've also posted links to organizations such as PsychRights and the International Center for the Study of Psychiatry and Psychology.  In some cases, my links are deleted by pro-psychiatry editors.  Most of the related articles on wiki aren't NPOV but rather heavily slanted in favour of biomedical psychiatry.  Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 15:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

text: The problem with BP is that the psychiatric profession is based upon as much opinion as fact (for example, Neurontin was until recently thought to be an anti-depressant, but is actually just a placebo).  Also, and not surpisingly, the psychiatric profession does little research on how inaccurate their diagnoses are (or are not). Anarchist42 15:59, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I realize that you didn't address your question to me but I'd like to point out anyway that psychiatry not being based on fact is patently obvious by the way psychiatrists approach the subject.  The DSM contains detailed lists of symptoms with no regard to etiology.  Psychiatrists match up their patients to the symptom lists and a psychiatric label is born.  Without any evidence for underlying pathology, psychiatrists confidently pretend that the needed discovery that would legitimize psychiatry is "just around the corner" and in the meantime cheerfully inflict damage on their patients, many of whom do not even have the right to reject treatment.  As unwanted effects arise from these medications, psychiatrists just expand the diagnostic spectrum.  Treat a unipolar with SSRIs and create a bipolar.  Great, because we've got even more drugs to prescribe for that one.  Psychiatry, as a branch of medicine, is a sham and forced psychiatry is a severe human rights violation.  Francesca Allan of MindFreedomBC 02:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Back in the dark ages standard medical treatment consisted of blood letting and various other practices that seem crazy today. Would you suggest that doctors back then should have thrown in the towel and not done the best they could with the tools and knowledge they had? If not, then what are suggesting now? So far psychiatry has managed to start categorizing different problems and to figure out that something in neurotransmitters and/or structure of the brain is causing the suffering and illness people are experiencing. That's a heck of a lot further than medical science was around 1700. It is taking tremendous study and research to try to find the answers. Does everyone conducting the research have the best motive? Probably not.... but would you suggest that we not do the best we can with the tools we have? Rather than throw around accusations why don't you write up something positive and helpful, cite your sources, and post it so we can discuss how to make the best article possible to help the most people. My family has suffered doubly from the illness and from the treatments, but we can't just give up. And my family members *do* have their lives back, despite the difficulties. We have to keep trying to find the answers, and bitterness and anger won't help. Curlywhirly 05:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Not much has changed... yet. That's my point! They didn't start really working on this til 50 years ago or so. Medical science has been in process of finding cure for somatic problems for thousands of years. Cite a source for the neurotransmitter theory being bunk? Cite a source on what the "real underlying issues" are? Cite your sources or else all you are doing is making baseless accusations. Curlywhirly 17:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Your reference to Neurontin proves my point: there were no facts to show that Neurontin did anything at all for BP, yet all it took was the opinion of drug salesmen to convince psychiatrists that their patients should buy it(note that none of us have yet received a refund from the manufactured nor an appology from our psychiatrist). Anarchist42 20:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

text: (Actually, since all patients did not benefited from the lawsuit, it didn't really right all the wrongs) The factual evidence was provided in court, where the drug corporation admitted to lying to and bribing psychiatrists. In addition, since there were no actual peer-reviewed studies to show that Neutontin helped BP, the only logical conclusion is that psychiatrists relied solely upon opinion rather than actual facts. Anarchist42 20:27, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  bipolar disorder caused by antidepressants 

message: What type of contributions would add value to this link?  We are adding video content to our site Bipolar Treatment, but really want find a way to make this site more helpful for those searching for Bipolar information.  We do not want to spam the article but really think we have a professional opinion on the subject.  Would very much appreciate any feedback.
:It is a secondary source and hence not very useful compared to directly cited journal articles. Please review Wikipedia:Reliable sources. JFW | T@lk 22:28, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What contributions are needed?