Συζήτηση:Μακεδονία (αρχαίο βασίλειο)

message: Μακεδονικό κράτος; Δεν υφίσταται έννοια του κράτους για την περίοδο που μιλάμε--The Elder 15:44, 11 Ιουνίου 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Σωστή η παρατήρηση. Αφήνω τον ορισμό ως έχει για την περίοδο από τον Φίλιππο Β' και μετά, όπου οι δομές είναι αρκετά συγκεντρωτικές ωστε να μπορεί να χαρακτηριστεί κράτος (για τα δεδομένα της κλασσικής αρχαιότητας, πάντα).--Dipa1965 18:22, 11 Ιουνίου 2009 (UTC)

text: Αν εννούσες τη φράση μου "απίθανο να υπάρχουν στοιχεία για μακεδονικό κράτος τον 12ο αι", αυτή ειπώθηκε από κεκτημένη ταχύτητα. Φυσικά και εννοούσα ένα (έστω και υποτυπώδες) βασίλειο. Η χρονολόγηση της απαρχής του μακεδονικού βασιλείου στο 12ο αι. π.Χ. είναι που ενδιαφέρει. Και δεν υπάρχουν στοιχεία για τέτοια χρονολόγηση, εκτός φυσικά αν "χρονολογήσει" κανείς τα υποτιθέμενα "κύματα" των εισβολέων του τέλους της μυκηναϊκής εποχής σε συνδυασμό με την υποτιθέμενη σύνδεση των Αργεαδών με τους Δωριείς του νότου και τα θεωρήσει υπεύθυνα για το τέλος του μυκηναϊκού κόσμου. Εντελώς ξεπερασμένες θεωρίες δηλαδή. --Dipa1965 18:42, 11 Ιουνίου 2009 (UTC)
Όχι σε αυτό έχεις δίκιο. Εικασίες διαθέτουμε, τίποτα που να στηρίζεται από αρχαιολογικά ευρήματα. Για την έννοια του κράτους μιλώ, που είναι άγνωστη στη συγκεκριμένη περίοδο. Γενικώς η έννοια κράτος στον αρχαίο κόσμο χρησιμοποιείται με πολύ φειδώ γιατί ουσιαστικά καθιερώθηκε στον και για τον σύγχρονο κόσμο --The Elder 18:56, 11 Ιουνίου 2009 (UTC)

text: Σωστά, το σύγχρονο συγκεντρωτικό εθνικό κράτος με τους επιβεβλημένους σε όλους τους πολίτες θεσμούς του απέχει πολύ από τα κράτη της προ-βιομηχανικής ή, μάλλον καλύτερα, προ-νεωτερικής (;) (pre-modern) εποχής. Αλλά λέμε πχ πόλη-κράτος (city-state) και διάφορα άλλα. Οι αναπόφευκτοι συμβιβασμοί με την αναχρονιστική μεν αλλά παγιωμένη ορολογία, υποθέτω (δεν είμαι και ειδικός).  --Dipa1965 20:11, 11 Ιουνίου 2009 (UTC)

message: Η υπηκοοτητα του Αντίπατρου Ετησία ήταν Ελληνική  όπως και όλων των μακεδόνων !!! Παρακαλώ διορθώστε το . Αναφορά:  2A02:587:2503:B600:282F:EE1B:B7EF:74BD 13:29, 22 Φεβρουαρίου 2016 (UTC)
Ο Αντίπατρος δεν αναφέρεται στο λήμμα, αλλαγή αναφοράς σε "έγινε". Wolfymoza (συζήτηση) 10:31, 23 Ιουνίου 2017 (UTC)
 Dragao2004 (συζήτηση) 15:44, 25 Οκτωβρίου 2018 (UTC)
BEFORE PHILIP II & ALEXANDER THE GREAT:
Homer (Between 800 BC and 700 BC)
1. Odyssey, Book 7. Line 106: "ἥμεναι, οἷά τε φύλλα μακεδνῆς αἰγείροιο"
Hesiod (Between 750 BC and 650 BC) 
2. Catalogue of Women - Ehoiai, Fragment 3, "MAGNES AND MACEDON": "And she (Thyia) conceived and bare to Zeus who delights in the thunderbolt two sons, Magnes and Macedon, rejoicing in horses, who dwell round about Pieria and Olympus..."
Thucydides (c. 460 BC – c. 400 BC)
3. History of the Peloponnesian War, Book 2, Chapter 99: "The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia, was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos. This was effected by the expulsion from Pieria of the Pierians, who afterwards inhabited Phagres and other places under Mount Pangaeus, beyond the Strymon; of the Bottiaeans, at present neighbours of the Chalcidians, from Bottia, and by the acquisition in Paeonia of a narrow strip along the river Axius extending to Pella and the sea"
Herodotus (c. 484 BC – c. 425 BC)
4. The Histories, Book 1, Chapter 56, Lines 7 - 15: "These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first (Ionians) a Pelasgian and the second (Dorians) a Hellenic people. The Pelasgian race has never yet left its home; the Hellenic (Dorians) has wandered often and far. For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it (the Hellenic people) settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it (Hellenic people) took the name of Dorian"
5. The Histories, Book 8, Chapter 43, Lines 3 - 6: "...the Sicyonians furnished fifteen ships, the Epidaurians ten, the Troezenians five, the Hermioneans three. All of these except the Hermioneans are Dorian and Macedonian and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region..." 
6. The Histories, Speech of Alexander I, Book 9, Chapter 45, Section 2, Lines 1 - 2: "I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery" 
7. The Histories, Book 5, Chapter 22, Section 1: "Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history. Furthermore, the Hellenodicae who manage the contest at Olympia determined that it is so"
GEOGRAPHERS:
8. Strabo, Geographica, Book 7, Chapter Fragments, Section 9: "...secondly, Greece; and thirdly, the Islands that are close by. Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece..."
9. Strabo, Geographica, Book 7, Chapter 7, Section 4: "The Aegean sea washes Greece on two sides: first, the side that faces towards the east and stretches from Sunium, towards the north as far as the Thermaean Gulf and Thessaloniceia..."
HISTORIANS:
10. Arrian, The Anabasis of Alexander, Book 1, Chapter 18, Section 6: "Parmenion advised Alexander to make a naval battle with the Persians immediately. He hoped the Greeks would defeat the Persian fleet because he was persuaded by something divine he saw. An eagle sitting on the beach to the sterns of Alexander's ships"
11. Plutarch, Moralia, Chapter 1, Section 10: "...the blessings of Greek justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me, Diogenes, that I imitate Heracles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysus,8the divine author and progenitor of my family and desire that victorious Greeks should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Caucasus. Even there it is said that there are certain holy men, a law unto themselves, who follow a rigid gymnosophy10 and give all their time to God"
12. Plutarch, Parallel Lives, Alexander, Chapter 37, Section 4: "And it is said that when he took his seat for the first time under the golden canopy on the royal throne, Demaratus the Corinthian, a well-meaning man and a friend of Alexander's, as he had been of Alexander's father, burst into tears, as old men will, and declared that those Hellenes were deprived of great pleasure who had died before seeing Alexander seated on the throne of Dareius"
13. Plutarch, Parallel Lives, Alexander, Chapter 17, Section 2: "Now, there is in Lycia, near the city of Xanthus, a spring, which at this time, as we are told, was of its own motion upheaved from its depths, and overflowed, and cast forth a bronze tablet bearing the prints of ancient letters, in which it was made known that the empire of the Persians would one day be destroyed by the Greeks and come to an end"
14. Arrian, The Anabasis of Alexander, Book 1, Chapter 12, Section 4, Line 3: "There is no other man amongst the Greeks or the barbarians who has shown so many or so great achievements than Alexander"
15. Arrian, The Anabasis of Alexander, Book 1, Chapter 16, Section 7: "Alexander, the son of Philip, and the Hellenes, except the Lacedaemonians, devote these panopies, from the spoils of the barbarians inhabiting Asia"
16. Arrian, The Anabasis of Alexander, Book 7, Chapter 16, Section 1: "After that, Alexander sent Heraclides the son of Argaeus to Hyrcania and ordered him to cut woods from the mountains and built warships according to the Greek shipbuilding"
17. Arrian, The Anabasis of Alexander, Book 2, Chapter 14, Section 4, Lines 3 - 4, Alexander's Letter to Darius III: "Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece...", 
18. Polybius, Histories, Book 7, Chapter 9, Section 3: "in the presence of all Gods who possess Macedonia and the rest of Greece in the presence of all the gods of the army who preside over this oath"
19. Arrian, The Anabasis of Alexander, Book 4, Chapter 11, Section 7: "οὔκουν οὐδὲ αὐτῷ τῷ Ἡρακλεῖ ζῶντι ἔτι θεῖαι τιμαὶ παρ᾽ Ἑλλήνων ἐγένοντο, ἀλλ᾽ οὐδὲ τελευτήσαντι πρόσθεν ἤ πρὸς τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἐν Δελφοῖς ἐπιθεσπισθῆναι ὡς θεὸν τιμᾶν Ἡρακλέα. εἰ δέ, ὅτι ἐν τῇ βαρβάρῳ γῇ οἱ λόγοι γίγνονται, βαρβαρικὰ χρὴ ἔχειν τὰ φρονήματα, καὶ ἐγὼ τῆς Ἑλλάδος μεμνῆσθαί σε ἀξιῶ, ὦ Αλέξανδρε, ἧς ἕνεκα ὁ πᾶς στόλος σοι ἐγένετο, προσθεῖναι τὴν Ἀσίαν τῇ Ἑλλάδι
STATESMEN:
20. Aeschines, The Speech on the Embassy, Section 32: "For at a congress1 of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks, in which Amyntas, the father of Philip, being entitled to a seat, was represented by a delegate whose vote was absolutely under his control, he joined the other Greeks in voting to help Athens to recover possession of Amphipolis. As proof of this I presented from the public records the resolution of the Greek congress and the names of those who voted"
THE HOLY BIBLE:
21. "Now Alexander [the Great], when he had taken Gaza, made haste to go up to Jerusalem [...] And when the Book of Daniel was showed him wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended." [The Bible verses showed Alexander might be Daniel 7:6; 8:3-8, 20-22; 11:3. Some or all of them are plain predictions of his conquests and successors.].
* Flavius Josephus, "Antiquities of the Jews" (Book 11, Chapter 8, Paragraphs 4&5)
THE NEW TESTAMENT:
22. Chapter (16:9) "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. [...] (17:1) Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: (17:2) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, [...] (17:4) And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. [...] (17:10) And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. (17:11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (17:12) Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few"
* New Testament (Holy Bible KJV), Acts of the Apostles 16:9; 17:1-2, 4, 10-12
THE VATICAN:
23. «Macedonia is the country of Philip, of Alexander, of Methodius and Cyril and Macedonia is Greek»
* Pope John Paul II of the Vatican in an interview he gave on the 21st June 1992 to the journalist Mrs Pinni for the Greek centre-left politics newspaper KYRIAKATIKI ELEFTHEROTYPIA
MODERN SOURCES:
24. "Philip was born a Greek of the most aristocratic, indeed of divine, descent... Philip was both a Greek and a Macedonian, even as Demosthenes was a Greek and an Athenian..."
* Nicholas Hammond, "Philip of Macedon" (Duckworth Publishing, February 1998)
25. "...for the first time he (Phillip) started to understand how Macedonia's outdated institutions of feudalism an aristocratic monarchy so despised by the rest of Greece"
* Peter Green, "Alexander the Great", page 24
26. "Such a glorious ancestry was in the eyes of Greeks the hallmark of the Hellenic persona of the king of Macedon, who could, on the other hand, rely on fidelity of the people from which he had sprung. The Greek cities did not feel that they were allying with a barbarian, since for generations the Macedonian dynasty had been allowed, as Greeks, to take part in the Olympic Games. 
* Francois Chamoux, "Hellenistic Civilization", (Blackwell Publishing Professional, 2002, p.8, 9)
27. "The Macedonians were Greeks. Their language was Greek, to judge by their personal names and by the names of the months of the calendar; Macedonian ambassadors could appear before the Athenian assembly without needing interpreters; in all Demosthenes' sneers about their civilization there is no hint that Macedonians spoke other than Greek"  ("Philip of Macedon", Faber & Faber, London, 1978, p. 22)
* George Cawkwell, Emeritus Fellow, Oxford University College 
28. "Philip II, at least from the time of his victory over Phocis, Athens, and their allies in 346, prepared to proclaim himself the champion of a United Greece against the barbarians"
* Ernst Badian, "Cambridge history of Iran", p. 421
29. "...the Macedonians, our conviction is strengthened that they were a Greek race and akin to the Dorians. Having stayed behind in the extreme north, they were unable to participate in the progressive civilization of the tribes which went further south..." 
* Ulrich Wilcken, "Alexander the Great", p. 22
30. "To his ancestors (to a Persian's ancestors) Macedonians were only known as 'Yona takabara', the 'Greeks who wear shields on their heads', an allusion to their broad-brimmed hats" 
* Robin Lane Fox, "Alexander the Great", p.104
31. "...King Philip of the northern Greek kingdom of Macedon perfected this system, and his son, Alexander the Great..."
* Archer Jones, American historian, "The Art of War in Western World" (University of Illinois Press, 2000), p. 21
32. "The idea of the city-state was first challenged by the ideal of pan-Hellenic unity supported by some writers and orators, among which the Athenian Isocrates became a leading proponent with his Panegyrics of 380 suggesting a Greek holy war against Persia. However, only the rise of Macedonia made the realization of panHellenic unity possible..."
* Vilho Harle, Professor of International Relations at University of Lapland in Finland, "Ideas of Social Order in the Ancient World", p. 24
33. "The king [of macedon] was chief in the first instance of a race of plain-dwellers, who held themselves to be, like him, of Hellenic stock"
* David George Hogarth, "Philip and Alexander of Macedon", p. 8
34. "Macedonia (or Macedon) was an ancient, somewhat backward kingdom in northern Greece. Its emergence as a Hellenic (Greek) power was due to a resourceful king, Philip II (359-336), whose career has been unjustly overshadowed by the deeds of his son, Alexander the Great"
* Mortimer Chambers, Professor of History at the University of California at Los Angeles, "The Western Experience", p. 79, Mortimer Chambers et al, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2nd edition, 1997
35. "Soon after Athens had reached the height of its glory under Pericles in the Fifth Century, B. C., and had started on its decline, the rise of Macedon under Philip carried Greek influence into new regions. The glory of Athens had been based upon sea power, but the conquests of Macedon were the work of land armies— Philip invented the invincible phalanx. Upon Philip's death his son, Alexander the Great, set forth to conquer the whole of the then known world, and as that world in his day lay to the east, his marches were in that direction. In a few years he had overrun the fertile plains and opulent cities of Asia Minor, Syria, Mesopotamia, and Persia, and had carried his conquests to the gates of Delhi. In all the cities in the intervening countries he left large garrisons of Greek soldiers. In many of these countries he founded flourishing new cities. In every place his soldiers were followed by large colonies of Greek civilians. The result was that the whole of western Asia, and of what we call the Near East, including Asia Minor Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Babylonia, Mesopotamia, Persia, and northwestern India, was saturated with the Greek influence and with Greek colonies"
* Henry Morgenthau, "I was sent to Athens", Doubleday, Doran & Company, inc (1929)
SLAVIC SOURCES:
36. "We are Slavs, we came to this area in the sixth century (AD), we have no connection with Alexander the Great"
* Kiro Gligorov, Tirana, Albania, 03.06.1992
37. "From a historical point of view the term Macedonia had no clear ethnic meaning (it is because of thousands of years of mixing of various tribes and peoples), although it is clear that in ancient times Macedonia was considered a Greek state and Macedonians [were] Greeks living in Macedonia...".
* Slavenko Terzić, "Stara Srbija: Drama of a European Civilization", Moscow 2015, p. 38
38. "When Athens falls, when spreading of Greeks beyond the area of Greece starts, as many know, after the conquests of Alexander of Macedonia, new Greek states are established and Egypt becomes the main centre of Greek civilization, with the centre in Alexandria. Greeks winning over Asia, that is the main idea of Alexander"
* Nikolaj Pavlovič Grincer, professor at the Institute of Eastern Cultures and Antiquity (IVKA), Moscow, Lecture “Literature and politics in European antiquity", 2014
39. "...Certain proto-populations occupying distinct areas of the Balkans could be distinguished on the territories of the cultural groups: in western part of the Balkans the proto-Illyrians, in the east the proto Thracians, in the south the Hellenes (i.e: Greeks), in the northern part of the Balkans the proto Daco-Mysians and in the southwest of the Central Balkans the proto Bryges"
* "Arheologija" magazine, No 1, Skopje 1995, "Bryges on the central Balkans in the 2nd and 1st millennium b.c." (summary)
40. "Paeonians, a people who during the first millennium BC inhabited the border area between the three great Paleobalkanic peoples - Illyrians, Thracians and Hellenes. (i.e:Greeks)"
* Fanica Veljanovska, FYROMian anthropologist, "An Attempt at Anthropological Definition of the Paeonians", Skopje, 1994
41. "Philip V (220-178 BCE), carried a struggle against Romans trying to halt their penetration into Balkans, but he was defeated in the battle of Cynoscephalae, after which he was forced to renounce all Greek lands, with the exception of Macedonia..."
* Enciklopedija Prosveta, "Filip V", Vol. 2, Beograd, 1968, p. 869
42. "Greek epigraphic monuments created before definitive Roman domination of our area are to be found in modest quantity"
* Vera Bitrakova Grozdanova, ethnic Macedonian archaeologist, "Hellenistic Monuments in S.R.Macedonia", Skopje, 1987, p. 130. Dragao2004 (συζήτηση) 20:23, 24 Οκτωβρίου 2018 (UTC)
Για ποιο λόγο παρατίθεται όλο αυτό το κατεβατό;--Kalogeropoulos (συζήτηση) 20:29, 24 Οκτωβρίου 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Σχόλιο 22-2-2016

message: Τελικά ο Μακεδών ή ο Κάρανος είναι γενάρχης των Μακεδόνων;
thread_title:  Γενάρχης