Sgwrs:Plaid Werdd Cymru a Lloegr

message: The official name of the party yn Gymraeg ydy Plaid Werdd Cymru a Lloegr from their official website, though a better translation would be Plaid Wyrdd Cymru a Lloegr. The same also applies to the automomous Plaid Werdd Cymru. I'm going to be updating the election and party templates to get consistency across Wicipedia (i.e. Gwyrdd or Plaid Wyrdd -> Plaid Werdd [Cymru a Lloegr] or Y Blaid Werdd [Cymru a Lloegr], etc). Paul-L 18:44, 6 Ionawr 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Paul, but I think I should point out that Plaid Werdd is correct as 'plaid' is a feminine noun. Of course the Greens are Gwyrdd(ion) and 'pleidiau gwyrdd' would be correct as well. By the way, by "Mae'n aelod o'r Blaid Werdd gyffredinol" do you mean that the party is affiliated to the Green Party as a European party/group (not sure what the situation is now) or to some sort of UK-wide organisation? It's open to several interpretations as it stands. Cofion, Anatiomaros 19:07, 6 Ionawr 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :I'll answer your second point first.  I was trying to write "It is a member of the global Green Party", but I think that doesn't actually exist, so it's probably better to rephrase as "They are afflicted to the Global Greens, and the European Green Party".

text: :[Back to the first point], I've been getting a bit confused, as I'd seen "Gwyrdd" being used to refer to the Green Party, when I can't find that name used by the Green Party themselves, and your comments confused me slightly more. But last night, I think I've worked it out:Would I be right in thinking that as adjective, "Green" has two forms: "Gwyrdd", which is masculine; and "[G]Werdd", which is feminine?If not, then I'm still confused! Paul-L 17:13, 7 Ionawr 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Ah, I see. I'll rephrase the relevant parts of the article then. I'm also a bit confused about the Greens in the UK. I knew of the Wales-England set up ("But why 'England and Wales', for goodness sake?" is another question, which many a Welshman would ask!) and now know of the Welsh party; I think there is a Scottish party and somehow doubt there is one in NI: I presume then that there's no UK/British organisation which these parties are affiliated to (too busy to go check ":en" as I want to write something)?. As for gwyrdd/gwerdd, I guess I'd have made it clearer if I'd said that gwerdd is the feminine adjectival form of gwyrdd, so as 'plaid' is a feminine noun we get 'Plaid Werdd'. 'Gwyrdd' might still be used as shorthand to refer to the party sometimes, e.g. on a list such as "Joe Bloggs (Llafur), John Greene (Gwyrdd)". Hope that helps! Anatiomaros 19:30, 7 Ionawr 2009 (UTC)

text: ::According to their website they "work with their sister parties" in Scotland and Northern Ireland (not a mention of the independent party in Wales though!). No wonder the Welsh party was set up. Cofion, Anatiomaros 19:41, 7 Ionawr 2009 (UTC)

text: ::Now I really am becoming confused. Putting 'Plaid Werdd Cymru' in my search engine brings up this, where the Wales Green Party turns out to be actually a sort of branch of the "England and Wales" party (which, however, does not have an "England Green Party" within it and just calls itself "The Green Party" most of the time: that is the name used on the logo/link on the Welsh "party"'s own website to urge people to vote as well, a link taking you to the main greenparty.org site). On the same website - entirely in English, apart from the "party"'s Welsh name - it says "the UK Greens" have two seats in Europe. Confused? We should be! Anatiomaros 19:52, 7 Ionawr 2009 (UTC)

text: ::There is also several pages on the greenparty.org site for the rather bizarrely named "Plaid Werdd Caerdydd a Bro" (surely they mean "Caerdydd a Bro Morgannwg"?!). In my humble opinion the "Wales Green Party" is not a seperate party but simply a "region" within the Wales-England set-up. Their site makes no mention of their actual status. Anatiomaros 20:09, 7 Ionawr 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::Diolch yn fawr. My main confusion was about Gwyrdd -> Plaid Werdd, but you seem to show what I'd thought is true. Can I check with you that Gwyrdd is a masculine adjective, as well as being the noun, i.e. "carped gwyrdd" makes sense? I do know the current status of the UK Green Party, which I'll explain in a few paragraphs below. Paul-L 20:18, 7 Ionawr 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::::The was a UK Green Party (previously called the Ecology Party), but in the 1990s it split into three new parties, each registered separately with the Electoral Commission:
*:en:Green Party of England and Wales
*:en:Green Party in Northern Ireland
*:en:Scottish Green Party

text: ::::In England and Wales, the party is divided into regional branches (the English regions and Wales), but only the Wales region is autonomous (and has it's own Wikipedia article). These regional branches are further divided, usually by county, and then are [sometimes] further divided into constituency parties. But although autonomous, any person standing for election on behalf of the Green Party in a Welsh constituency, will be officially standing for the Green Party of England and Wales.I'd not heard of a UK-wide Party for the European Parliament, but this may be a formality to keep their UK MEPs together. Paul-L 20:46, 7 Ionawr 2009 (UTC)

text: Thanks for clearing things up, Paul. That confirms that 'Plaid Werdd Cymru' is no more a seperate party than 'Llafur Cymru' or 'Ceidwadwyr Cymru', even if they have a page on English wikipedia. None of the above is really clear on the website(s) though. They must be the only political party that lumps Wales in with England and I can't help thinking that 'Plaid Werdd Cymru' is just a sop to Welsh sensitivities and a sort of token "internal devolution" (and not a single word of Cymraeg - although I'm "green" on many issues I'm afraid they won't be getting my vote for the foreseeable future). Returning to gwyrdd/gwerdd, yes, you're right, 'gwyrdd' is the masculine adjective (there's also the noun 'gwyrdd', of course). Anatiomaros 21:25, 7 Ionawr 2009 (UTC)

text: PS I've no objection to a seperate page/article for them her e, and thinking about it I suppose it's high time we had seperate articles for Labour, Tories and Lib-Dems in Wales (and especially the early Welsh Liberals or at least 'Liberalism in Wales' - Lloyd George, Home Rule and all that). Cofion eto, Anatiomaros 21:31, 7 Ionawr 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :I'm glad I'm now clear about the 'Gwrdd/Gwerdd' thing, and also quite pleased I worked it out myself!I'm not sure about creating articles for Welsh Labour, etc., as they are not really separate parties, and it could get quite confusing when knowing who to link to in the election templates. I know there are separate articles on en:, but it might be too soon for us, as our articles for the UK versions of these parties are still relatively short.I would certainly agree with a 'Liberalism in Wales' article - there is certainly a lot of information that you mention that could be in the article. There isn't an equivalent on en:, but there is :en:Liberalism in the United Kingdom, and space for one in the navigation box. Paul-L 21:35, 9 Ionawr 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::Yes, you're right about those parties as "Welsh parties" (big problem on :en there too, much debate), but I was thinking more along the lines of their history in Wales. Not a great priority perhaps, but I definitely hope to get around to the Liberalism in Wales article at some point - it's been "on my list" for a while - as it's such an important part of the political history of Wales, especially mid-19th century to the 1920s (maybe "liberalism" with a small 'l'?). Meanwhile there's Palestine today (speaking of Lloyd George....!). Anatiomaros 22:24, 9 Ionawr 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Note