Sgwrs:Llywelyn ap Gruffudd

message: Hi, I am afraid I do not speak a word of Welsh. I am Dutch and translated the Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf page for nl.wiki (from English). I must admit reluctantly because I doubt it is a very NPOV page. Frankly it reminded me of the reasons that Hitler had to shoot back at Poland in 1939 (He sent his own men across to shoot at their own buddies..). Llywelyn and especially his brother David are depicted as dummies and of course Edward had no choice but etc.. I would appreciate a Welsh view on this. I'd love to amend the nl. version. nl:Gebruiker:Jcwf
Hi.  I also don't speak much Welsh, but as I wrote the original English page, I feel I should respond.  Naturally I don't agree that it is not NPOV - quite the opposite.  Llywelyn is generally regarded by historians as a great leader who did some foolish things.  His brother Dafydd is generally regarded as having been unreliable, headstrong and treacherous - though he also had a noble side to him. The problem, I find, is that Welsh writers with a patriotic bent prefer to overlook their faults.  Now that is non-NPOV.  As a leader, Llywelyn certainly was a lesser man than either his grandfather, Llywelyn Fawr, or his great-great-grandfather, Owain Gwynedd.  As for Edward I, he was a heartless tyrant, and I find it hard to write about him in a non-NPOV way. 212.159.32.14 19:18 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Sorry, that's me. Deb 19:23 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Thank you Deb for a quick and interesting response. I wholeheartedly agree that overlooking the flaws of Llywelyn and Dafydd would not be NPOV, but I am surprised to see how far you have curbed your dislike for Edward. He comes out smelling rather like roses... Thus the impression is created that the conquest of Wales was all due to its learders' flaws and had nothing to do with the expansionist designs of Edward. Is that really appropriate? (or what you intended?) Jcwf
replies: text: Well, personally, I don't think so - I think the article is fairly impartial.  Maybe you could be more specific about which bits you don't like -- or just go and rewrite them.  I've never expected that anything I write will remain unaltered for all time. Deb 17:37, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: :Specifics? All right: I rather respect a man who does not endulge in extramarital affairs and loves his wife enough to be distraught at her death. The UK might wish to have such a Prince of Wales again. Perhaps even HM the Queen might agree with me. In your story it is however depicted as one of Llywelyn's 'weaknesses', that replace the true reason for Wales' conquest: the villain Edward who stopped at nothing, even abduction of someone's bride. Jcwf

text: Oh no.  No way.  I quite agree that Llywelyn's apparent love for his wife (even though it must, realistically, have grown after they were married - because he had never set eyes on her before her return to Britain) is one of his endearing qualities.  I sincerely hope the article doesn't read as if I think otherwise.  All it says is that Eleanor's death had a serious emotional impact on Llywelyn, which by all accounts is a fact.  But it is also true that, had he not been so affected, he might have been better able to respond to the English invasion.  It is also true that he would not have started a rebellion, as Dafydd did, but that he felt he should support his brother rather than attempt to appease Edward.  None of these things, in themselves, are reprehensible on his part; and I count none of them as "weaknesses".  Is it possible that there is some kind of linguistic barrier between us? Deb 19:06, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

message: Oni dylai hyn fod ar dudalen dan y teitl Llywelyn ap Gruffudd? Dyna oedd enw'r Tywysog; mae'r enw "Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf" (hefyd "Y Llyw Olaf" neu "Ein Llyw Olaf" yn unig) yn enw poblogaidd arno a ddaeth i fry yn cymharol ddiweddar. Does gennyf ddim byd yn erbyn yr enw, sy'n rhan o'n traddodiad, ac mae'n iawn i gael erthygl dan yr enw ond credaf y byddai'n well i hynny ganolbwyntio ar rôl Llywelyn ap Gruffudd fel arwr cenedlaethol ar ôl ei farwolaeth (dadeni y 18fed ganrif, cenedlaetholdeb yn y ddwy ganrif ddiwethaf, etc.). GRUFFUDD yw'r ffurf safonol hefyd, nid "Gruffydd" (mae tudalen yn bodoli dan yr enw Llywelyn ap Gruffydd sy'n atgyfeirio i fan'ma).
Cytuno: pobl o dan eu henwau go iawn, a Gruffudd sy'n safonol am enw ei dad. Daffy 16:47, 24 Awst 2006 (UTC)
The need for disambiguation would also be my concern. Deb 17:27, 26 Awst 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ai dyma'r lleoliad iawn? 

message: Nid cerflun o Llywelyn ap Gruffudd yw hwn sy'n cael ei ddangos ar y dudalen. Cerflun o Llywelyn ap Gruffudd fychan ydyw, ymladdodd yng ngwrthryfel Glyndŵr:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Castell_Llanymddyfri_Sir_Gaerfyrddin_gyda_cherflun_o_-_LLywelyn_ap_Gruffydd_Fychan_07.JPG
thread_title:  Delwedd anghywir