Sgwrs:Dafydd (Michelangelo)

message: Can the name of a sculpture be translated? Michelangelo named his sculpture David, (though Davide would be more common in Italian, and :en:David, who it is a represent of, is known as it:Davide in Italian), but ourselves and .pl are the only ones to translate the name [aside from languages that need to transliterate]. Paul-L 14:38, 22 Mehefin 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a fair question, Paul. In general I think it's common practice to do so, especially in English (check the average artist biography article on 'en:' and I think you'll find that they usually give the English translations of the names of works of art), but also in other languages as well (I've got the French-language Larousse Histoire de l'art here and all the works mentioned are given in French translation). Ideally the original should be given as well. I don't see this to be the same as the titles of films and books, where the rule that the original should be used unless a translation has been made is a sound one. Also, in this case Dafydd is the accepted Welsh name for the Biblical David[e] depicted by Michelangelo. Pity there are so few art books in Welsh to guide us. Anatiomaros 17:17, 22 Mehefin 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :I've been looking at other Wikipedias to see how they name works of art, particulary those of Constable, Manet and Picasso, and generally the individual works are translated, except those that are particulary famous, notably Mona Lisa and Le déjeuner sur l'herbe. David would fit into the "so famous the name isn't translated" category, which I believe is the reason why nearly all other Wikipedias don't translate the name.Back to the naming of this article on .cy, I think we should use what would most commonly be used in a conversation between two fluent Welsh speakers** referencing the sculpture, which would seem to Dafydd in this case. As you mention above, it is a pity there isn't a standard book on art that could be used as a reference point, in a similiar way that Yr Atlas Newydd Cymraeg is used for naming of the country articles. Paul-L 16:35, 27 Mehefin 2009 (UTC)

text: :**This could create problems if a work of art is known by Welsh speakers by a name not in Welsh or its original language, for example The Scream [I don't know if this does have a Welsh translation, I'm guessing, but I think you take the point]. The Scream, incidentally, is very famous, but has always been translated from the original Norwegian. Paul-L 16:35, 27 Mehefin 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ::"David would fit into the "so famous the name isn't translated" category, which I believe is the reason why nearly all other Wikipedias don't translate the name" is a bit questionable as the spelling, if not the pronunciation is the same in so many languages. I think it might be better to assume that they are translating the name, as do the Polish, Turkish and Finnish Wikipedias. If Italian uses the Latin spelling, perhaps that refers to some now defunct convention for the names of Biblical characters in that language? (I really don't know.) I doubt it's the "name given by Michelangelo", diverging from normal usage, in quite the way you are suggesting. Ham 15:31, 5 Medi 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: :::I didn't realise that Latin uses the name "David", and that would make sense as to why that name is used in Italian (instead of "Davide"). Re-looking at the interwikis of both this articles, and Dafydd (brenin), it does seem most use "David", though I haven't time to do a Wikipedia-by-Wikipedia comparison of which name is used for the statue, and which is used for the biblical figure. Paul-L 16:41, 8 Medi 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Dafydd?