Diskuse:Iga Świąteková

message: Hned zítra 11. října 2020 můžeme zaznamenat velký posun Świątekové dopředu. Z 54. místa žebříčku na IMHO 17. pozici, krom toho u výdělku z necelých 1,2 milionu dolarů na 2,8 milionu, neboť hrála také čtyřhru. Prostě začátek velké světové kariéry, když půjde všechno podle očekávání. Boris Becker, nyní komentátor TV stanice Eurosport, byl jejím výkonem v Paříži nadšený a prohlásil ji za novou superstar. --Zbrnajsem (diskuse) 11. 10. 2020, 12:22 (CEST)
thread_title:  Velký posun dopředu 

message: Just to make sure, shouldn't she be written as Iga Świątková, given that in Polish we have 0:e alternation just as in Czech? Sorry for writing in English, but my Czech is at best pathetic. I think that Świątková sounds quite well and Świąteková sounds caricatural, but you probably know better. Anyway, thanks in advance. Marcowy Człowiek (diskuse) 14. 10. 2020, 01:02 (CEST)
replies: text: In fact, me personally I would even in Czech write just Świątek, as this is her real surname. However, it is almost impossible to implement such a view in this version of Wikipedia. So Świąteková is better, as everybody can see the real surname, just there is the notorious -ová. Greetings, --Zbrnajsem (diskuse) 14. 10. 2020, 08:24 (CEST)
replies: text: :  Actually, for me writing Iga Świąteková in Czech is comparably ridiculous to writing Martina Navratil in any other language, just that for some reason the second does not tend to happen. Sorry to say that, but nobody in their right mind would use Czech Wikipedia to check someone's real surname. I appreciate, however, that every language has its own rules and it is pointless to quarrel over them as long as they do not harm anyone. Therefore, my question was actually about the rules of Czech language – whether you use 0:e alternation in Slavic surnames or not. By the way, I wholly agree with your first post – miss Iga has great potential and, with a bit of luck, she could proceed to dominate the WTA tournaments for quite a few years. I was quite sad that she did not get to play the final match against Petra Kvitová, it would be very interesting. Marcowy Człowiek (diskuse) 14. 10. 2020, 09:59 (CEST)
replies: text: ::  OK, you see there is some need for further discussion. Maybe I'll contact you on the Polish wiki version. This will be better, it's between you and me, and not everything belongs to this special page. --Zbrnajsem (diskuse) 14. 10. 2020, 10:55 (CEST)

text: Both versions -tková & -teková can be found in Czech sources. Yes, in domestic names -e- is omited (not in 100 % of surnames, but nearly that), in foreign but Slavic names - it depends :) both are possible, maybe more it resembles Czech name, more chances it gets of "asimilation"  - meaning no "e". We do have Czech surname Svátek - f. Svátková, but Ś and ą in Świątek shows us it really is not Czech (word). Yes it can sounds like "pes - bez pesa" (pies, bez piesa), but in foreign words it does not matter so much. Or: who omits "e", knows Polish more and welcomes its similar names into Czech ;)  Chrzwzcz (diskuse) 22. 10. 2020, 00:22 (CEST)
replies: text: :, I see that the original (Polish) version of the surname is now mentioned in the article. I think that everything is clear now. If there are both versions in the sources, obviously one of them has to be chosen arbitrarily. Thank you for understanding! Marcowy Człowiek (diskuse) 23. 10. 2020, 11:10 (CEST)
replies: text: ::  Good morning. I would like to apologize to you for the treatment of Polish and many other in our view foreign female surnames in the Czech Wikipedia. Whereas the Polish and I think all other except of Czech and Slovakian Wikipedians hold the true original surnames including the Czech and Slovak ones as the only correct lemmata for the articles, we don't do this. I personally and a lot of other Czech Wikipedians don't agree with this policy, but we have not yet been able to reverse it. --Zbrnajsem (diskuse) 23. 10. 2020, 11:48 (CEST)

text: ::I do not apologize for Czech. Czech language is what it is, and Czech Wikipedia follows Czech sources, and no apology needed. Wikipedians can't disrespect Czech sources and Czech language, although many try. ---Chrzwzcz (diskuse) 23. 10. 2020, 11:57 (CEST)

text: Thank you very much! I never asked for an apology. Actually, you may not realize that – until the II World War – in the Polish language we also had a system of distinct female surnames, and a much more complicated one. Some adjective-based surnames could end with -owa, quite like in Czech and Slovak, but noun-based ones were really problematic. Most of them would end with -owa, too, when derived from a husband, or with -ówna when derived from a father (in this case, therefore, we would have spoken about Iga Świątkówna). If the male form of a given surname ended with -a, -g, -ge or -go, however, the female form would end with -ina or -yna (from a husband) or -anka (from a father). Of course, this sytem required a Polish-speaking consultant for determining whether two people belong to the same family, so it was really inconvenient for the occupying powers and they worked hard to render it obsolete… A few months ago, we had a violent dispute in Polish Wikipedia whether to retain these forms in the biograms of women from the past or to use the modern ones. I strongly defended the stance that every woman should be named in the way that was correct in her times, in the way she probably named herself. Hence, you see that I am not necessarily against female forms of the surnames.

text: In spite of that, I firmly believe that using the old form and using the never-existing form (in a given language) are two very different things. Without any doubt, I deeply respect Czech language; I appreciate its beauty, I know and admire the poems of Svatopluk Čech. And I think that your call for respect is deeply asymmetrical. When someone criticises you for using the forms like Iga Świąteková, you say that it's disrespectful; when – in another language – someone uses forms like Martina Navratil, you also say it's disrespectful. I guess you should choose one of these attitudes in order to remain consistent, because now it seems as if you considered only your language's rules to be meaningful for all the world.

text: I write this, however, only as a philosophical observation, I do not feel personally offended. With my poor command of Czech language, I do not consider myself fully entitled to advise which forms you should or shouldn't use in this Wikipedia. At first, I wanted only to determine whether she should be Świąteková and not Świątková (which seems solved now), and this problem emerged alongside. By the way, if you want to answer my post and you prefer to use Czech, feel free to do it. I write in English because of insufficient knowledge of Czech grammar, but I believe I can understand it well enough. Thank you once again! Marcowy Człowiek (diskuse) 23. 10. 2020, 13:04 (CEST)
replies: text: :Tak zkusím česky :) Díky za příspěvky. Vy jste měli "violent dispute" na svojí wikipedii, my zase tady máme svoje editory, kteří by nejradši opravovali češtinu podle svých představ o tom, co je správné. Jediné správné je nedělat na Wikipedii aktivizmus a kopírovat z dostupných českých zdrojů, nevymýšlet si vlastní způsoby. --Chrzwzcz (diskuse) 23. 10. 2020, 13:17 (CEST)
replies: text: ::Right, that's the only professional attitude for a Wikipedian. The problem begins when some sources are contradictory. In the Polish Wikipedia, we believe that the sources in the original language are of primary importance when determining someone's name. For that reason, for example, we have an article about Wiktoryja Azaranka (accurate transliteration from Belarusian) while in most of the sources she figures as Wiktoria (or Victoria) Azarenka. I think that I explained in the previous post why I consider this approach to be the best one. Nevertheless, I do appreciate that you have different local regulations and obviously I will not start a campaign to change them while not even speaking fluent Czech. Since the question emerged, I only wanted to explain my personal opinion and its background. Greetings, Marcowy Człowiek (diskuse) 23. 10. 2020, 14:52 (CEST)
replies: text: :::Ano, to je věčný problém: Když je několik možností - jakou vybrat. Alespoň není na Wikipedii nuda :) --Chrzwzcz (diskuse) 23. 10. 2020, 14:55 (CEST)
thread_title:  Ortography