Diskuse:Štefan Kločurak

message: Štefan Kločurak wanted to join Hutsul Republic to Ukraine, so it is more logig he identified as Ukrainian, as Hutsuls do it currently and as they did when they were immigrants to countries like Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay. If they identified as Ukrainians, by then and currently, it must be beacuse they chose and choose to be Ukrainians. Why don´t you accept it?--186.22.68.104 23. 11. 2010, 21:15 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know what did he want and I consider it irrelevant. As a politician, he was (according to the article) active only on a small territory of Podkarpatská Rus during times when it was not part of Ukrajina. --Tchoř 23. 11. 2010, 21:23 (UTC)
replies: text: :If he was the primer minister of Carpatho-Ukraine, it must be because he identified as Ukrainian. The fact that "he was (...) active only on a small territory of Podkarpatská Rus during times when it was not part of Ukrajina" does not mean that he was not Ukrainian. The fact that that territory was not part of Ukraine does not mean that its people were not Ukrainian. Even, there are an important "detail"; that "small territory" you say, was precisely inhabited by people that did identified as Ukrainian, and he was from there. Do not confuse political boundaries with ethnicity. He was Hutsul, he planed to join Hutsul Republic to Ukraine and was prime minister of Carpatho-UKRAINE. Clearer than that? Hutsuls from Transcarpathia were Ukranians outside the Ukrainian state. That is relevant and now you can start to research what he wanted.--186.22.68.104 24. 11. 2010, 06:00 (UTC)
replies: text: ::1) Carpatho-Ukraine was only Carpatho-Ukrajine not Ukraine.By the same logic, all :en:Small Russia's politician should be thought of as Russians? Bohdan Chmelnický, for example? And Carpatho-Ukraine is a just a one of many names of the region, used only rarely, most name. Maybe Štefan Kločurak was a Russian as well, after all?

text: ::2) I do not doubt that today Rusyns (and/including Hutzuls) are mostly assimilated, but we are talking about history, when they had dreamed about their own independent state and recognized the region of Podkarpatská Rus as their only original homeland. Maybe Kločurak was an exception and he wanted to make Podkarpatská Rus part of Ukraine, but that does not make him Ukrainian politic.

text: ::3) Maybe similar example would be Konrad Henlein — no doubt he was ethnic German, he wanted all of Země koruny české (and especially Sudety) to become part of the Großdeutsches Reich. And he even succeeded! But still, he is usually referred to as Sudeten (or Sudenten German) politician - because that is the most accurate description (I think Henlein himself would probably preferred to be called german politician — but who cares?).

text: ::With Kločurak, it is similar. His political career is tied to the region, his own dreams (and you are yet to show sources on this!) about being part of the greater Ukraine state are not much important. --Tchoř 24. 11. 2010, 13:48 (UTC)
replies: text: ::: Yes, you are right. Anyway, using the name Carpatho-Ukraine is indicating his orientation, among other politicians. Of course Carpatho-Ukraine is not Ukraine, but using the word "Ukraine" is showing at least identity orientation, even using Ukrainian national anthem and flag, identical to that of the rest of Ukraine. What would it happen?. Using "Ukraine" added to name of the region is not only a name is an identity, is showing an identity construction and orientation. And continuing saying about assimiltation sometimes can be wrong. Of course  maybe Lemkos, Boikos and Hutsuls were assimilated (what people did not do it in Europe? For example Sicilians in Italia, Silesians in Poland and Czech Republic, Moravians in Czech Republic), but emphazising only that assimilation is deny and/or subestimate Lemkos´s, Boikos´, Hutsuls´and Rusyn´s capacity to make history and identity, is denying the possibility that they chose in Ukraine, identify as Ukrainians. Already at the end of the XIX century and the beggining of the XX century, for example, more than 50.000 immigrants from Transcarpathia came to Argentina and they already identified as Ukrainians. So, I have doubt that they could not choose their identity or were assimilated by Ukrainians, when Ukraine did not exist yet. Of course you can say that 50.000 are not all Podkarpatska Rus, but by then they are not precisely a "small" number, considering that period. 
About Kločurak, well, if he had been Russian, he would not plane to join Ukraine, the Ukrainian state. Saying that is, at least, a bit funny. Anyway, I will look for sources. Thank you!--186.22.140.226 24. 11. 2010, 16:00 (UTC)
I don't know, how Kločurak defined himself. I'm sure, that statement, that it is more logical he identified himself as Ukrainian because he wanted join Hutsul Republic to Ukraine, could be quite the same as saying, that he is Czech, because he supported the idea of Rusyn identification with Czechoslovakia (according to this). According to other wikipedias he is described as Rusyn politician. It seems to me logical, because he served as a politician in the area, which was called Carpatho-Ukraine, that means he could be identified as Carpatho-Ukrainian politian (by place). I don't know to which nationality he belonged to, but I assume, when he was identified with the Rusyn popultion, he could identified himself as Rusyn, no matter to which country he wanted Carpatho-Ukraine to join (Czechoslovakia, Ukraine). Off course you can say, that he was Ukrainian, but this is the same as with Konrad Henlein. In article "The Ruthenian decision to unite with Czechoslovakia" by Paul R Magosci (Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute, 1975. ISBN B0006WVY9I) he is described as Ruhenian (Rusyn). It could be difficult to say which nationality he belonged to, but these two sources define him as Carpatho-Urkainian / Rusyn poltician and it seems logical to me. --Thomas999 25. 11. 2010, 17:32 (UTC)

message: Tady je uvedeno plno dyz informaci. První co autor tohoto článku by měl vidět že se jmenoval Kločurjak 
a ne jak uvedeno chybně (Kločurak).
Další informace autor by měl vidět že vedl pro evropskou politiku, taky i společnou politiku z českým prezidentem T. G. Masarykem
Po nástupu rusu sovětské armády příznivce Stepana Kločurjaka a T. G. Masaryka byly povražděni,( informace je k nalezení v 
muzeji v Jasinach v Karpatach a ve veřejných dokumentech.
thread_title:  Přesunuto z článku